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Posted By: purgatory The Space Between... - 03/11/12 06:06 PM
LINK to my last thread.

Yep, that's the Dave Matthews song I named my new thread after. It's on one of my playlists, and listening to it now- using my sitch as a filter- it has a whole new meaning to me. I'm standing in the space between an unhappy M and a fulfilling future.... alone or with H.

I'm focusing on the 'good things' about my M and choosing to bring those to the future, while leaving the pain behind. I have made peace in my heart that I forgive myself for what I did in the past, doesn't mean I'm making excuses or denying my responsibility for getting to my current sitch. Lord knows I wish I could go back and do things differently, but since a time machine hasn't been invented yet- I have to stop dwelling on the shoulda, coulda, wouldas. I choose to live only in the hear and now and make efforts towards moving forward.

I've seen H become more comfortable around me and the house in recent weeks, but he still hasn't made any signs about changing his mind. He and OW only talk once a week and he's not allowed to go over to her house anymore- per her L orders for her own D proceedings. I'm not an idiot to think that there aren't ways around this- but this is what he has told me and so I choose to let him live with the guilt if in fact he IS lying to me.

On my last thread, NHMOM made a good point: what if he's detaching himself from me and the kids to protect us (in some strange way) in case something happens to him in AFG. Thinking of our interactions with this concept in mind- some of his statements make more sense:
"You have to learn how to do this on your own", "I'm not always going to be around to help"... I used to think of these as his way of reminding me that he wants a D, but maybe there's another level to them- that he's actually preparing me to be alone if something bad happens to him. Although he's never told me, he's told his mom (and she shared with me) that he's scared to go. I'm sure there's some shame and embarrassment in that statement; because after all- he DID join the military and knew what could possibly happen.

I have 3 months left before he leaves for a year. I'm choosing to leave him with a good impression of me so that he has happy memories to keep him company when he's alone. I am doing this by continuing to be the person that I want to be (which just happens to be the one he fell in love with so long ago), being present for my kids everyday (regardless of how tired I am), and taking pride in my job (even though it doesn't pay nearly enough.)

I like who I'm becoming.... I can only hope that H does too.
Posted By: BklynMom Re: The Space Between... - 03/11/12 06:19 PM
GReat post purg.

You touch on the psyhcological element that we are all dealing with and that is so deep its hard to grasp.

His fear is an assault on his masculinity.
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: The Space Between... - 03/11/12 06:21 PM
I like who I'm becoming....

You could have stopped there?

Great post Purg.
Posted By: purgatory Re: The Space Between... - 03/11/12 07:12 PM
bklyn, I'm glad you got something from that... I felt like I was just throwing random words together as they came to me- wasn't sure if I actually made sense smile

mnky, thank you smile

So here's the chorus to the song. I feel silly that *I* can't find the words for the thoughts/feelings I'm going through- but a song says them perfectly.

…. But I’ve got all the time for you love/ the space between the tears we cry, Is the laughter that keeps us coming back for more/ the space between the wicked lies we tell and hope to keep safe from the pain/ but will I hold you again? ....the space between your heart and mine is the space we fill with time.

The last line speaks perfectly to what so many on these boards have said:
We have time.
Time to give them space, time to let our changes become real and time to decide what we want for our lives.

(does anyone know if Dave had a bomb dropped.... he seems to what it's like to be a LBS?)
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: The Space Between... - 03/11/12 09:44 PM
[quote=purgatory

I'm focusing on the 'good things' about my M and choosing to bring those to the future, while leaving the pain behind. I have made peace in my heart that I forgive myself for what I did in the past, doesn't mean I'm making excuses or denying my responsibility for getting to my current sitch. Lord knows I wish I could go back and do things differently, but since a time machine hasn't been invented yet- I have to stop dwelling on the shoulda, coulda, wouldas. I choose to live only in the hear and now and make efforts towards moving forward.

I like who I'm becoming.... I can only hope that H does too. [/quote]

This is great Purg! I am trying to be of this mind set more often than not but still beat myself up for things that I've done even though I can't go back and change anything.

Dave Matthews was one of the best shows I've ever been to.

"You've got your ball, you've got your chain, tied to me tight, tie me up again."
Posted By: rickb89 Re: The Space Between... - 03/11/12 11:06 PM
Purg - that was beutiful. You are doing so well and I aspire to be as strong as you. You're doing all of this self reflection, making you evolve, dealing with an OW, and doing all this while your H is going off to a war in which the best result is he comes back in 1 year. On top of all this, raising two little ones, offering your home to the kid next store, starting a new job, and dealing with blown boilers!
Posted By: nhmom Re: The Space Between... - 03/12/12 12:55 AM
The title made me think of a book that S4 and I currently have on loan from the library. It's about a rabbit's journey on a train. There is a line in the book where the rabbit likes to look out of the window and look at the 'between' - the between where he's coming from and where he's going.

I feel like we're all in this 'between' stage right now. Our M as it was is 'dead' (a scary concept on its own) and we're heading towards something better, which will also hopefully include a renewed R with our H/W. In the meantime, we're in this between space, reflecting on things that went wrong, trying to make sense of it, working on improving ourselves as human beings, learning about what kind of M we'd really like, and what it takes to have that.

With every post, you sound wiser and more assured of yourself. Thanks for your support on this journey!
Posted By: hopingandpraying Re: The Space Between... - 03/12/12 02:21 AM
Great post purg! I wish the very best for you and your husband! We are all going through incredibly had times and I.thought that if we could make it through two deployments we could make it through anything. Only to find out that home life with him was our.problem...and he not liking the routines of daily life.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: The Space Between... - 03/12/12 02:53 AM
Rabbits have a way of putting things into perspective
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: The Space Between... - 03/12/12 03:12 AM
Just stop Rick.....
Posted By: zig Re: The Space Between... - 03/12/12 03:39 AM
"I feel like we're all in this 'between' stage right now. Our M as it was is 'dead' (a scary concept on its own) and we're heading towards something better, which will also hopefully include a renewed R with our H/W. In the meantime, we're in this between space, reflecting on things that went wrong, trying to make sense of it, working on improving ourselves as human beings, learning about what kind of M we'd really like, and what it takes to have that."


nhmom - i really like the way you put this - it is exactly the space we are in - and to see it written so clearly and concisely just soothes me and makes me realize more concretely where i am and what i'm doing and what this is all about.

if you don't mind i am going to copy and paste it into my thread, so that i can read it everyday:)
zig
Posted By: BFloat Re: The Space Between... - 03/12/12 03:51 AM
Wow purg.. That's such a great post. Looking back.. Could you eve imagine you'd be here a couple of months ago? Time does heal many wounds.

I think a lot of us are in the same space you are and you have been able to articulate it so beautifully.

You are truly inspiring
Posted By: rickb89 Re: The Space Between... - 03/12/12 02:09 PM
The name of your thread...when I first saw it I thought you meant the space between his ears
Posted By: purgatory Re: The Space Between... - 03/13/12 01:55 AM
HAHA Rick ^^^^^! Yes, the space between his ears seems to be lacking something!

Journal:
This past weekend was a test of my changes... and I passed!!

Our water heater broke and was leaking water into the ceiling- I discovered it by walking in on a waterfall dripping in the middle of the hallway (our heater is in the attic.) I was already at home with a sick baby- so I was stressed as it was. H took a half day at work to come help. By the time he got home, I had already turned off the water to the house, looked up a youtube video about how to drain the unit, and hauled the wetvac up into the attic to clean up the standing water- gotta love being a Navy Wife!
I let him take the lead as far as making a plan to fix this (a 180 for me). He bought a new unit and made plans to remove/install himself. A BIG 180: I kept my mouth shut about the negative possibilities that could happen, and just told him that I have faith in his handyman abilities (that was honest b/c he is VERY handy around the house.) I only offered suggestions when he asked and was available to help when he needed it, but didn't force myself into the sitch. It took us 6 hours, but we worked together, problem solved, improvised and even laughed a lot- all in a tight space in the attic (I even caught him checking me out a few times as we had to get in some strange positions to get to the pipes.) This kind of event would have normally involved some raised voices, rude words and ended with a fight... none of that happened!!

The rest of the weekend was odd. He barely acknowledged me and he moved awkwardly out of the way if we were going to brush past each other. But at the same time, he cleaned out the garage and set up a new workbench, laid down grass feed and filled up and turned on the hot tub we haven't used in over a year. We even had family dinner on Sunday night- pizza on TV trays watching a movie, but it counts!

More strange behavior today:
- He text in the middle of the day to ask me my opinion about something that happened 2 weeks ago involving the kids (an event that has no bearing on current issues.)
- He text me tonight to ask how the boys (he hasn't done this on his 'day off' in over 3 weeks.) We text back and forth for a little bit- then he just stopped.

Gonna try not to mind read....
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: The Space Between... - 03/13/12 02:18 AM
Nice job with the self sufficiency and the 180's. I know it is a challenge not to step in and fix, fix, fix. And I can totally relate to the raised voices and fights that can break out trying to take on a project as big as the water heater. So Bravo to Purg!

Don't mind read. Accept what little you received, file it away and hope for similar opportunities to have positive interactions in the future!

Keep going!
Posted By: WenikiTiki Re: The Space Between... - 03/13/12 02:35 AM
Hey Purg!

Good to hear things are going smoothly. Despite water heater waterfalls!

Hang in there!

Wendy
Posted By: BklynMom Re: The Space Between... - 03/13/12 02:40 AM
What I think is so nice about your post is how much you enjoyed just being with your family and H even in the most mundane sitch. All the dinners watching and movie that you took for granted before, was now perfect. You probably were so happy just being in that moment. I love it.
Posted By: ces67 Re: The Space Between... - 03/13/12 02:41 AM
and who's idea was it to design houses with water heaters in the attic???? Sorry, just had to throw that in there....
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: The Space Between... - 03/13/12 02:51 AM
Cleaned out garage and set up a work bench doesn't seem like someone who is not planning on staying a while would do.

But you are spot on Purg, do not mind read. You can certainly enjoy these moments and be hopeful but keep those expectations in check & keep the Zen flowing.
Posted By: BFloat Re: The Space Between... - 03/13/12 07:49 AM
Did you at least offer him a coke? wink
Posted By: hopeless in wa Re: The Space Between... - 03/13/12 09:16 AM
Pretty cool! I did some self-sufficiency myslef. was charging up ipod, thought I ejected business, then went dead. Thought I killed it. got onto internet figured out how to fix. Minor victories, a good thing!
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Space Between... - 03/13/12 10:34 PM
found your thread (posted on your other)!

You are doing so well. We just got H's deployment supplies, in a box the size and shape of a coffin...nice touch.

We can whine together later. My h goes later this summer. Brother is in Afghan now. (But HE must kind of like it, b/c he sure does go back!)
Posted By: Cadet Re: The Space Between... - 03/14/12 10:56 AM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
found your thread (posted on your other)!


25 and anyone else
To find someones thread click on their name, hit VIEW POSTS
then there is a button on the right that says TOPICS CREATED, click on that, it will give you all the topics started by that poster. Pick out the lastest one.

Hope that helps.
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: The Space Between... - 03/14/12 01:06 PM
Thanks Cadet, you just saved me a lot of time.
Posted By: Cadet Re: The Space Between... - 03/14/12 01:59 PM
Originally Posted By: sayitaintso
Thanks Cadet, you just saved me a lot of time.

Well in that case you OWE three PAY IT FORWARDS. smile smile smile
Posted By: rickb89 Re: The Space Between... - 03/14/12 04:17 PM
Hi Purg. Hope today is good day in Purgville. Your a strong woman. There's a lot we can learn from you...besides spelling corrections.
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: The Space Between... - 03/14/12 04:37 PM
Consider it done.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Space Between... - 03/14/12 07:54 PM
Originally Posted By: Cadet
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
found your thread (posted on your other)!


25 and anyone else
To find someones thread click on their name, hit VIEW POSTS
then there is a button on the right that says TOPICS CREATED, click on that, it will give you all the topics started by that poster. Pick out the lastest one.

Hope that helps.


it does help in part. I saw a ton of her posts (to others on their threads) but how do you tell which is HER thread, or do you just have to read them til you get to it? Wait...maybe it is answered...See "topics created!!"

Thanks!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: The Space Between... - 03/14/12 09:08 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Originally Posted By: Cadet
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
found your thread (posted on your other)!


25 and anyone else
To find someones thread click on their name, hit VIEW POSTS
then there is a button on the right that says TOPICS CREATED, click on that, it will give you all the topics started by that poster. Pick out the lastest one.

Hope that helps.


it does help in part. I saw a ton of her posts (to others on their threads) but how do you tell which is HER thread, or do you just have to read them til you get to it? Wait...maybe it is answered...See "topics created!!"

Thanks!


25 - I just tried this method (above) and it worked...very easy this way!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: The Space Between... - 03/14/12 09:08 PM
You actually have to clik the Topics Created line
Posted By: purgatory Re: The Space Between... - 03/14/12 09:15 PM
Glad everyone is learning new things: me fixing water heaters and learning to find other's threads!

25, I'll go look at my other thread for your post smile

H just dropped a mini bomb, kinda. He asked me if he could have primary custody of the kids when he gets back from AFG. He said its only fair, I deserve it, he'll want to reconnect with them.... I wanted to cry.

I was surprised. I told him that I couldn't answer right now because that was something I would have to give a lot of thought to. He understood. He continued talking about living arrangements and how he's not trying to take them away forever. He rattled off some ideas that's he's already researched housing and the possibility of me staying in my current house; what to do when he deploys again; and daily schedules. He did say that he hadn't worked all the details out, but these were things he's been thinking about.

[interesting side note: he talked about the apartment he would get and I asked him how he was going to fit the kids and all their/his stuff in there. He responded with: "well, I don't have that much stuff. I mean, all my garage stuff will stay in there and I'll probably have to become more establishe in the guest room- but I could make it work." I didn't say anything about this- but really?!?! This man is saying that we are going to be divorced, living separately AND he's going to keep his stuff here?!?! How does this make sense to him??? Can we say cake eating?? Does this sound like someone who's conflicted??]

I listened to everything, didn't offer much to the conversation and again just told him that I would have to sit with this for a while an see how it makes me feel.

It's talks this these, that I realize I've been getting hopes up. When H talks about the future (a year away!!!) and us living separately... I get sad all over again. It's my own fault for letting myself think that just b/c we are getting along and he hasn't talked about our sitch in a while- doesn't mean it's not still on his mind.

I wish someone could tell me how to have hope when I hear things like this, cause I don't see it!! He is getting a plane in 2.5 months, it still makes my heart stop to think about saying good-bye.
Posted By: ces67 Re: The Space Between... - 03/14/12 09:47 PM
(((Purg)))

Sorry P, that is a rough conversation but I think you were very wise to set it aside and state your need to think about it.

Let it sit in and process the emotions before you start making decisions and actions.

As far as his things, that's his opinion on how it should work and you have every right to state how you thing it should work. Just know what you want and why before the discussion. I would imagine you've got some time to deal with that so don't rush yourself.
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: The Space Between... - 03/14/12 10:40 PM
Originally Posted By: purgatory
It's talks this these, that I realize I've been getting hopes up. When H talks about the future (a year away!!!) and us living separately... I get sad all over again. It's my own fault for letting myself think that just b/c we are getting along and he hasn't talked about our sitch in a while- doesn't mean it's not still on his mind.

I wish someone could tell me how to have hope when I hear things like this, cause I don't see it!! He is getting a plane in 2.5 months, it still makes my heart stop to think about saying good-bye.



I'm feeling the same way Purg. I felt like my W and I were connecting more and getting along which led to me hoping for more and these past few days have been rough. She has pulled back and is hanging out with some new "friends". I am doing my best to just let her go but it is tough.

Try to give it time. For him to be requesting something that is more than a year in advance seems a bit premature. You know how quickly our dynamics seem to change so who knows where you will be in a year. Try to focus on the present.

((Best))
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Space Between... - 03/14/12 11:57 PM
[quote=purgatory]Glad everyone is learning new things: me fixing water heaters and learning to find other's threads!

25, I'll go look at my other thread for your post smile

H just dropped a mini bomb, kinda. He asked me if he could have primary custody of the kids when he gets back from AFG. He said its only fair, I deserve it, he'll want to reconnect with them.... I wanted to cry.

STOP ...I can't even finish reading this before saying something.
WHO CARES WHAT IS "FAIR" TO HIM??? He will deserve full custody? Um, what about THEM and what they deserve?

And why are YOU getting punished for taking care of them all this time b/c of HIS career choice, leaving ALL the care to you for a solid year-

only to take it back at a time of his choosing, like it is HIS to give and take?

NEWSFLASH-
The stability & needs of the children determine this,


NOT your h's comfort level or convenience OR sense of entitlement.

He'll be a virtual stranger to them upon return and after he has disaapeared from their lives for a year,

& when he comes back he wants their mother, THEIR primary caregiver to fade to something less b/c of what HE deserves and wants? Wow...sorry Purg but atm all I can say is

Screw that.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Space Between... - 03/15/12 12:02 AM
okay I finished...

Don't freak.

He's so foolish to think he can predict what will happen in the next year, let alone how HE will feel, or you

or the kids...

gee maybe YOU will have moved on too, and maybe an OM will be in your life and maybe he'll be a "great stepdad that the boys actually 'know' and gee, let's not put more upheaval in their lives..."

let him fear losing you...

and let space and time clear his head so his old feelings can resurface...
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Space Between... - 03/15/12 12:05 AM
of course on his return, he will want time w/them but you will have to be thereat least for awhile and he'll have to take it slow.

He doesn't NEED primary custody to have more time &

maybe you can promise him you'll be "flexible"
Posted By: Cadet Re: The Space Between... - 03/15/12 12:15 AM
A year from now?

How much has changed in the past year?

Validate what he says but make no promises, and none in writing.

Or like 25 says you can promise him you will be more flexible, I like that.
Posted By: RoRoinMD Re: The Space Between... - 03/15/12 12:22 AM
(((Purg))), I want to plan to do something devious, but that's probably not helpful. LOL

Just validate, but no promises.
Posted By: BFloat Re: The Space Between... - 03/15/12 01:57 AM
(((( purg ))))

that is so frustrating! H is certainly feeling very entitled isn't he?

I can understand how you feel. In January, when my H announced at our counselling session that he wanted to D, I felt very out of control. Everything seemed to spiral downward very quickly. But when I had a chance to process and figure out where I was going from that point on... I felt very empowered telling H I wanted every second weekend (because I was leaving every weekend).. And there were a few other things I had to state even though I was scared to. But in the end it was.. What am I afraid of? Him leaving? Because he had already left!

I'm so sad that you're hurting because I know what an awesome person you are. I've said it before.. H is a fool!

When we going to Vegas to really GAL and complain about our sitch??? Jack.. Johnny and Jose will be there I'm sure.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: The Space Between... - 03/15/12 02:15 AM
Purg - I just read your post and I'm shocked about your H's thought processes. I would say more of that but 25 stole my thunder. Jesus Purg...think/plan for just the kids and you going forward.
Posted By: MrBond Re: The Space Between... - 03/15/12 02:23 AM
Follow 25's advice.

He hasn't shown anything that would prove he's even a fit temporary parent. Keep custody for yourself. He hasn't even earned the right to be called a man.
Posted By: AlwaysTrying Re: The Space Between... - 03/15/12 02:45 AM
Doesn't the saying go, "Don't trust anything you hear and less than half of what you see and don't make plans based on the ridiculously insane things they say they want a year from now"?

I think I got the quote wrong, but it's pretty close to that.

((hugs))
Posted By: ces67 Re: The Space Between... - 03/15/12 02:48 AM
I like AT's version of the quote!
Posted By: labug Re: The Space Between... - 03/15/12 02:54 AM
Maybe he's planning for a year (+2.5 mos) from now in an attempt to create a future he's unsure of.
Posted By: NLW Re: The Space Between... - 03/15/12 04:01 AM
Hi Purg,
Just to let you know that my H has expressed a similar fantasy, albeit with a slightly longer time-frame.

We will be divorced and living separate lives but he will keep most of his stuff here and live in a rented room at his mate's house for the next 5 years until S13 finishes school.

H will keep the family car (and I will have to buy myself a new one) because..... he will be picking the kids up from school and driving them back to our home every day for the FOR THE NEXT 5 YEARS.

Oh, but wait, just got a call from H to say he can't make it to pick them up today.... he's busy. A bit like the day before yesterday ....

Mad as.
Posted By: kml Re: The Space Between... - 03/15/12 04:56 AM
Yes, I agree, it's a bit of fantasy, and a roundabout way of expressing that he's gonna miss the kids. Don't worry too much about it - a lot is gonna change in a year.

BUT - you CAN have a bit of fun with it.

Quote:
he talked about the apartment he would get and I asked him how he was going to fit the kids and all their/his stuff in there. He responded with: "well, I don't have that much stuff. I mean, all my garage stuff will stay in there and I'll probably have to become more establishe in the guest room- but I could make it work.


"Oh, sweetie, I'm pretty sure my new boyfriend/husband is going to want that garage space for his own tools/truck/workbench/weight bench"

Quote:
He rattled off some ideas that's he's already researched housing and the possibility of me staying in my current house


"Oh, sweetie, I was thinking perhaps I would move to California/Hawaii/Montana"
Posted By: purgatory Re: The Space Between... - 03/15/12 11:02 AM
Real quick.... In my H's defense (very, very small defense)

When he said that he wanted primary custody for a year when he gets back, his reasons were because *I* (as in me, Purg) deserve it because I will have been a single parent for a year, and he thinks it's only fair that *I be given some free time while he takes on the majority of responsibilities.

When I went back and re-read my post, I can see how it appeared that he was saying how *he* deserved it and that it was fair to him.... And apparently that's how everyone took it. Not that I'd saying his reasons are any more logical than before, just wanted to clarify.

Given that, I still think he's being selfish and rediculous!! I have. I have no intention on dignifying his ideas with a reasponse anytime soon!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: The Space Between... - 03/15/12 11:41 AM
Purg - blasting med for typos while giving out false info!
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: The Space Between... - 03/15/12 11:58 AM
Oh Purg who needs drugs when all u need is to become a WAS.
Posted By: BFloat Re: The Space Between... - 03/15/12 04:08 PM
Also, from what I've seen of you as a mom.. How would it be fair to take them away from you for a year? (yes I realize you would have visitation and all...) I understand your H thinking that it would be nice for you to have that freedom but I guess he's forgotten that it isn't you who's unhappy being in a M and caring for your kids. Funny.. I don't think you feel the need to have a year off as primary caregiver.. You need a partner to co parent on an everyday basis.

I love the interesting logic the WAS have. At least it's good for a laugh or two.

Geez.. You might need 2 rabbits with all your free time!!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: The Space Between... - 03/15/12 04:11 PM
Really Purg..the wonders of WAS mind...they're as bizarre as anything can get
Posted By: keep_going Re: The Space Between... - 03/15/12 05:00 PM
Hi Purg,

I am sorry your H is acting so selfishly. I am going thru some custody drama as well and it's no fun.

The one thing that works in your advantage is time... Your H might be wanting this now, but as we know WAS change their minds on a daily basis. And a year from now, who knows where we will all be...

So try not to give too much weight into it now. Besides, there is nothing you can do about it (or him) right now.
I know it sounds simplistic and I think the jist of this sitch is just how hurt you are feeling about your H's selfishness. Just when you think a WAS cannot do or say anything more hurtful than what they have so far, another thing comes out of their mouths. At least that is how I feel many times.

So hang in there and focus on what you can control now. Heck, isn't our daily life challenging enough already to be worrying about what happens a year from now?
(If you don't believe this, just think about where your life was a year ago.)

((((hugs))))
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Space Between... - 03/15/12 05:59 PM
Originally Posted By: purgatory
Real quick.... In my H's defense (very, very small defense)

When he said that he wanted primary custody for a year when he gets back, his reasons were because *I* (as in me, Purg) deserve it because I will have been a single parent for a year, and he thinks it's only fair that *I be given some free time while he takes on the majority of responsibilities.


"fair" enough. 1) But why don't YOU see how YOU feel, in a year? And let's not predict what that will be, today.

2) Change nothing legally b/c you'll lose out financially there.



When I went back and re-read my post, I can see how it appeared that he was saying how *he* deserved it and that it was fair to him.... And apparently that's how everyone took it. Not that I'd saying his reasons are any more logical than before, just wanted to clarify.

Given that, I still think he's being selfish and rediculous!! I have. I have no intention on dignifying his ideas with a reasponse anytime soon!




Well why would you? HOW could you?

Hey I am Not sure the following is DBing, and not sure it isn't, but

you could offer him some "reassurances" that while he's gone,

you promise not to have OMs you might be seeing, meet the kids or play stepdad to them, unless/until h gets back, "OR it becomes more serious of a R"...

That way, you know, your h won't fear being replaced while he's away.

(Oh wait, being replaced is what he was planning to do to you w/your ex bf)

I don't mean that to sting as much as it may, but it is sort of his la la land perspective where HE gets to do whatever he wants b/c he's owed b/c you mistreated him way back when...

Hey Purg, Don't give him all your power.

And all is not lost, of course he can and will change his mind, on a lot.
And his heart will soften with your changes, it already has in some ways.

Regardless of any OM discussions you MIGHT have-
I do think he needs to fear losing you, whether he admits it or not.


Let your heart not be troubled, right now at least.

Enough on today's plate not to borrow trouble from tomorrow.

((( )))
Posted By: WenikiTiki Re: The Space Between... - 03/19/12 02:06 AM
Hey Purg, I was thinking of you today.

Hope all is well. I think you are doing well with a nutty situation.

I think 25's advice is right on the money. (Isn't it always?!)
Posted By: Jenna333 Re: The Space Between... - 03/19/12 04:58 PM
Hey Pur. I can't believe that taking primary custody of the kids sounds logical to him. He's really in la-la land. I would definitely NOT go for that. EVER. Unless I absolutely had to.

You are detaching, I can tell smile You kinda have to if you want to preserve your own sanity and not lose it like the WAS.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: The Space Between... - 03/20/12 02:24 AM
Hi Purg. Nothing brilliant to add here (no suprise huh?). Just saying hello. You're doing so well. Proud of you!
Posted By: keep_going Re: The Space Between... - 03/20/12 03:53 AM
Purg - Hope you are doing well. Just checking in...
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Space Between... - 03/20/12 10:54 AM
ditto^^^

hey check out Keep Going's thread for some inspiring words...dang, she's a quick study like you. Hope all is well...or well enough.

cool

(((( ))))
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Space Between... - 03/20/12 11:48 AM
Purg

can you arrange a short trip to the beach or camping for YOUR family? You know, the boys, their parents and...no one else?

If not, then try to include h in "game night" or "kid night" which we did on Friday nights once they reached the age of TV or talking. Before 3. It made them feel special and was easier on US b/c we worked full time in long hour jobs..so we didn't have to cook and we all got together on the sofa bed and opened it up.

Friday nights we ordered pizza (occasionally McDonald's...hey, it was THEIR night to choose and at least they didn't pick at it) ) and there in the open sofa bed we all watched Kid movies of their choice...w/minor influence of ours...

These days a lot of THOSE films are actually funny or cute enough for adults.

I still love Milo & Otis, Aladdin--- (I found that animation film w/Robin Williams in it SO hilarious -But then, i'd had a tooth pulled that day so, who knows?) & Toy Story, Rango, evidently The Lorax, etc....and well,

you will all BOND as a family unit...and build on those bonds, layer by layer,

without expectation/request for more, without stares of need.

Just GIVE or SEND out inner calm, love and kindness and warmth.

If he seems to feel pressured or awkward or says "this is meaningless, don't get your hopes up"

I won't get my hopes up but hey, "these 'moments' are not meaningless, they're cherished family times, even if the family times will end soon. The boys and I find meaning in them

but don't worry h, this is NOT meant to be a night of pressure- but the exact opposite! So let's be here in the present and just help them feel safe and loved...okay?

And then give him more space or limit it to "1 kid night/game night" or whatever works for YOU. It's only how many more weeks til he's gone????

These are memories you are MAKING so your oldest boy will have some of you as a family...maybe little bro will have some images of warmth and family too, and your h will too....

Giving him something to miss is NOT a bad idea. No downside to it sweetie.


Don't stoke any angry fires of his, or fuel ANY of his negative justifications. Let those fires be UNfueled so they can die out. And then his feelings of love can resurface.

I believe it's possible to turn this around, maybe even 50/50 if he sees real change in YOU and the way the boys and you act around him...

(and don't carp at them in front of ANYONE who might tell your h..Keep the neighbors UNinformed about you losing it, IF it happens).

Keep low key expectations for these fun times, it's "all about the kids in limited time left" but as much as possible, have compartmentalized time for just you 4. Or close friends YOU trust.

YOU don't have to sit right next to him or act romantic--=pursuit.

Look/smell good and be warmly receptive to him, without being forward.

. Just dress well, be WARM (okay, be HOT) and have peace in the home.

(***Remember that marriage study of what spouses most value in their partners?****)

Husbands said they most prized the 1) attractiveness of their mates AND

2) peace in the home (no fighting/nagging/criticizing)

They all seem to like feeling admired, but then the rest of it varies more & goes to their particular love languages.


Wives said most prized in their husbands was Security (=financial, i.e., can he provide for you and babies? and physical-do you feel safe with him? Do you know down deep he'd kill or die for you or the kids?

and 2) Fidelity. Meaning sexual and lacking in deceit.

If you honestly think you have failed in some of your goals as a partner, well FIRST, please just

JOIN THE HUMAN RACE b/c we ALL fail to meet SOME of those goals at some points... but second,

If you feel shame, Don't let your shame paralyze you. That stops growth.


Please read Autumn Leaves comments about EE. The sooner you go, the better for you to show him a whole new way of viewing your life's choices BEFORE he leaves.

Maybe what matters most to you in a h, is HIS RECOMMITTING and

in you, would be your ability to lose the anger and truly forgive

AND BE FORGIVEN...which is another challenge...

In sum,
Get those family nights/picnics/weekends or whatever YOU can create that is not pressure but IS memory creation for your family/kids/h.

Give your best efforts. He will back out of some of the plans b/c he'll feel pressured or controlled or confused OR challenged

he may think "geez, I told her I wanted a divorce...but she keeps on being kind and loving and calm with me AND the boys...weird..what gives?"

Confusing him is a great start. It leads to him changing his mind. Confusion is transition between views or choices...

and of course, keep up all the good work YOU have done on YOU.

cool
(((( )))
Posted By: rickb89 Re: The Space Between... - 03/20/12 07:28 PM
Purg - what 25 says ^^^ seems to make so much sense. You have no idea of any kind of future (with H) because of your sitch and the deployment. Regardless of H's pushing back or acting differently than you might hope for, it seems wise to create some family events and sitches that become part of your family history. That way your boys, you and your H have that as an option to choose when he comes back. He'll see that that is there as a way of life if he wants it. Given the sitch and that he is deploying that's probably the most you can do from a practical point of view.

One of the things I like about 25's advise is that it usually offers real concrete actions that can be taken to clear the road home. Kind of the like the Martha Stewart of DB'ing. Use everything around you to create something good.
Posted By: RoRoinMD Re: The Space Between... - 03/20/12 07:52 PM
Originally Posted By: rickb89
One of the things I like about 25's advise is that it usually offers real concrete actions that can be taken to clear the road home. Kind of the like the Martha Stewart of DB'ing. Use everything around you to create something good.


Agreed! Purg, I don't have small kids, but her post did give me an idea on how to do some things with H. I think "family nights" are a good idea!

Thanks, 25. Your advice has been invaluable (although, tough sometimes to hear LOL).
Posted By: purgatory Re: The Space Between... - 03/22/12 01:21 AM
I haven't been on the boards in a few days.... And I come back to find 25's post (I think God had his hand in that!) B/C I *needed* to hear those suggestions specifically tonight.

H has been home for a few days, really sick. I've tried to not jump into nurse mode and just be available of he asks for help.... But as usual, I've allowed myself to get a little attached. He has reached out to me to solve problems and drive him to the doctor's (his meds don't allow him to drive.) we haven't talked verbally much- but used texting (it's too painful for him to talk).... However, I heard him on the phone with OW tonight!! Talking!! So apparently it's just me that he doesn't want to talk to!!

25's post brought me to tears b/c I have lost sight of the most important thing right now: providing opportunities fort kids to have family memories. It breaks my heart that he's going to be gone for a year and my boys are going to miss him terribly; regardless of how I feel about him and our R. I really hope that H can choose to put our kids needs as a priority and join us for 'family times'.
Posted By: ces67 Re: The Space Between... - 03/22/12 03:14 AM
Sorry P. ((((P)))). It's hard when you get that sense of being together and then having the door closed again. Things go smoothly just enough to let us forget we're still on a roller coaster.

Enjoy those boys! I have no doubt you will make some fantastic memories for all of you!
Posted By: BFloat Re: The Space Between... - 03/22/12 06:14 AM
purg.. as i read 25's post to you.. i cried as well. thinking that my D will have no memories of us as a family.. that broke my heart.

all this time i was trying to move forward and create memories for the kids and i.. i failed to try and create as many family memories as possible. when he suggested we could go together w/ the kids.. i should have made that a priority rather than thinking it was better for me to distance myself. i'm crying now just thinking about it again.

after this last interaction.. my M may be unrepairable.. but i don't think your is. creating happy family times that H can take w/ him is a great idea. i'm hoping i still have a fighting chance to the same for my D.

((((purg))))
Posted By: BklynMom Re: The Space Between... - 03/26/12 02:45 AM
Purg I know how hard this is but you are not alone. You guys are really my closest friends right now. I feel like you guys know how I feel and everyone else just thinks I am crazy.

In many ways things will be easier when you H goes to A. There will not be this constant fear of D hanging over you, (although I am sure other fears due appear). I think his deployment will have a big effect on him, who knows how it will effect him.

Hang in there. We love you. This aint easy. Its one of the hardest things to go through in life. Take care of yourself and treat yourself to a fancy Starbucks drink or something tomorrow.

Smile for your kids, they love you just the way you are, more than you can ever imagine.
Posted By: purgatory Re: The Space Between... - 03/30/12 02:38 AM
Ok, Gotta catch up on the past few days.... When we last checked in on Purg:

H was home for an entire week, sick as a dog. As he started to feel better, he hung out with me and the kids on the couch and we did dinners together. He also started to do a few chores since he was home during the day. Then he felt much better on Sunday, and things went right back to 'normal'. He left the house, barely talked to him for 2 days and he's back for Wednesday and Thursday.

Here's where it gets interesting:
On Wednesday, I had flowers delivered from a girl-friend (it was arranged on purpose.) H got there before I did and he had placed them on the kitchen counter. I came in, acted surprised and smiled when I read the card. He never asked who they were from or what they were for. In fact, he acted as if there weren't flowers on the counter. I went on with my plans for my "night off" (which mainly consisted of running errands without the hassle of kids- which feels like a luxury.) He barely spoke to me that entire night, except to say that he wanted to talk Thursday night about our papers and budget- he hasn't mentioned papers in over a month.

Thursday (today), I text him to say that I had forgotten that I had made plans with a friend already and wouldn't be able to talk tonight. He didn't say anything against that- but sent me an email with the stuff he wants to discuss: House plans and a few other assets. [these emails/texts still make my heart race and make me sick to my stomach.]

Well, I managed to piss him off before I got home. We had made plans to meet to see about a new lawnmower off of craigslist (long story, short: I can't start our current mower and I need to be able to use one while he's gone.) I got held up at work, and then got in the car and remembered I was on empty. I wasn't going to have time to get gas and make it to the place on time, so I called him and told him to go on without me and that I trusted his decision on the mower. He was livid! I got an earful of the following statements: "I should have planned better, How old am I to forget that I needed gas??, He was only coming with me for safety reasons and didn't give a sh!t about the mower, he had to backtrack 30 mintues now and get stuck in rush hour traffic when he could have been home already."

I validated as best I could, and explained that I didn't do this on purpose... but he was having none of it and just said: "I'm really angry. Let me get off the phone. I might not make it back in time for your movie tonight, sorry." He made it home and had no interest in talking to me. I approached him (a 180) and apologized again. He said: "I'm not surprised this happened." I asked him to explain; if that meant that he thinks I'm incapable of sticking to a plan? He said: "I'm just mad, don't think too much on it."

I left for my movie- which I throughly enjoyed. Came home to all the lights on, the kitchen in a mess and stuff/toys everywhere around the floors- looked like a tornado hit my living room! I went upstairs, and H opens the bathroom door (surprised me) and was fully dressed talking on the phone (like he was hiding in there?) While on the phone, he asked how/what movie I saw. I told him with a smile and walked away. When I asked him later how his night was with the boys, he was tight-lipped and only said: "busy." I didn't push, but I asked a few questions about the baby later on, and he was vague. I said: "It's ok, you don't have to tell me" with a smile and went to my bedroom. **This was strange b/c normally H would have told me a few details about the kids and what they did while I was gone**

So... H is being cold, quiet and short-tempered. Not to be unexpected from the WAS, but this is newish for him. I expected him to pull back some after having been here for an entire week and having to depend on me- he probably didn't want me to think that we were getting along. But I think the flowers sent him over the edge...

Not sure where to go from here. I hate not being able to make a decision about what to say or do.... H will be leaving the house until next Wednesday- and we are only scheduled to see each other for Saturday morning teeball. I have to build up to having the talk about papers (which still make me cringe!), have the kids all weekend alone, and most likely not hear from H at all. In regards to the papers- I told him back in December, that I won't sign anything before he leaves for Afg., and I still mean it. I will go through the process of discussing details and putting things down- but I won't sign until he gets back. I just feel that there's too much that could change in a year (positive or negative) that what we decide *now* might not be applicable in a year. I know things are modifiable in the papers, but if I sign them now, as of November 2012, 9 months before he's scheduled to come home, we will be legally D (b/c his lawyer told him that he can have the papers sent to him in Afg. and sign them there, as long as I didn't contest anything.)

GRRRRRR.... I'm back to being confused and a little lost!
Posted By: labug Re: The Space Between... - 03/30/12 03:00 AM
All I can say is, that sux!
Posted By: MrBond Re: The Space Between... - 03/30/12 03:11 AM
I think you did the right thing. He's throwing a tantrum so you actually have another little boy right now. When your kids throw a tantrum do you pay attention to it or let it run its course? Treat him as you would one of your kids right now.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Space Between... - 03/30/12 03:18 AM
Purg

what's to decide now? Legally nothing, right? I mean signing stuff only makes it more complicated if something happens to him.

So all you are really doing is gathering intel (papers), correct?

I'd back off the flowers for now (I get why and all, but it'll look over the top if it happens again too soon. but keep going out and smiling at the good times you are having. Be mysterious and volunteer as little & vaguely as possible)

And keep on your program. Remember, he has to ponder at least the possibility of OMs in your life (and your kid's lives) before he starts to wonder if he's losing something important.

His tantrum might even be a good sign though it's a drag. Something bugged him.

Next time you want to validate him, be sure to also set boundaries. If he goes off on you for something or lectures, you can tell him how it makes you feel.

OR

if you think he sounds like the old you, maybe suggest he not repeat your mistakes

b/c you learned the hard way that words do hurt. Just a thought.

Carry on!
Posted By: purgatory Re: The Space Between... - 04/01/12 07:50 PM
Opinions??
H attempted to talk to me about our papers, I wasn't engaging in the conversation so he was getting irritated. He told me that he thinks it's ridiculous that I insist on evoking my right to his retirement- b/c I won't see any of it for another 15 years. I only said I wanted his retirement b/c he changed his mind about staying separated indefinitely (so we could benefit from tax breaks, he would continue to receive married pay and I could maintain my military benefits- there were plusses for both of us.) He changed his mind about this a month ago saying: "It would feel like the marriage is still hanging over my head, I need it to be done completely." This has been a sticking point for both of us. Anyways, he told me today that his lawyer calculated out my portion and it would be $300 every month from the time he's 47 until he dies. His lawyer advised him that even if I put my refusal to claim retirement pay in our papers- if I ever changed my mind, I could sue and win simply b/c the military entitles me to claim it. He said that it doesn't make sense for me to take money away from him that late in our lives when it won't matter to me then, I pointed out that he will be taking money away from me *now* because I will now have to pay for insurance and medical procedures out of pocket- taking potential funds away from my lifestyle and his kids. He said that I should research insurance plans and he would be willing to help fund it with me. I told him that it feels like he's putting a monetary value on me and it hurts that his idea of 'support' for the mother of his children is $$. I also said that regardless of our marital status, the fact remains that I will have to continue to support his military career in the fact that I will be left behind to take care of the kids and their fears/questions every time he deploys; If we were still married- I would have the support of military services, my husband and his love to motivate me during these deployments. **This is where he lost it** He went off (yelling and talking down to me) saying that I would have to take care of the kids in any case b/c the are *my* kids too; what kind of mom and I for putting a money value to my kids; questioning if I'll only take care of the kids if I get my way... then he hung up on me. (there are a lot more words, but you get the idea of the rambling)

I never raised my voice, I didn't interrupt him, I didn't get defensive. It seemed like he was over reacting, but maybe I was wrong? The feeling I got is that I touched a nerve perhaps and maybe he thought I made a good point- but instead of telling me this and back down, he twisted things around to stay in the position of victim and keep the anger going (I speak from experience b/c I know I did this when I felt backed into a corner)

Without hearing all the details of our 'talk' I realize that it's hard for any of you to give a true impression- but do I have a valid point? Does he? Should I stand my ground or try to find a compromise? Is there a compromise?

(we are supposed to continue/finish this talk tonight)
Posted By: labug Re: The Space Between... - 04/01/12 07:59 PM
Sorry, Purg ((()))

I guess my question is, why not let an attorney handle these issues? It is business only now as evidenced by his lack of empathy for your situation. Why subject yourself to his tantrums?

If you talk with him tonight, avoid any emotional topics. Stick to dollars and sense. I know difficult to do but you know where it will end up.

I think you should defintiely get your share of the pension. How does he know you won't need it in the future. He has a crystal ball now?
Posted By: labug Re: The Space Between... - 04/01/12 08:16 PM
And whether you need it or not has no basis.

You've earned that pension.
Posted By: BFloat Re: The Space Between... - 04/01/12 09:10 PM
((((( ))))) that is a difficult conversation to have.

Will be thinking of you! I'll look for your post afterwards.
Posted By: RoRoinMD Re: The Space Between... - 04/01/12 09:10 PM
I'm with La Bug. Stick to the money issues tonight. You have already earned that pension and will continue to as long as he is in the military and will continue to be deployed to God knows where.

Get an attorney and let them fight it out.
Posted By: labug Re: The Space Between... - 04/01/12 09:19 PM
dollars and cents, I have very little spelling/grammar sense today.
Posted By: hopeless in wa Re: The Space Between... - 04/01/12 10:05 PM
I totally get where you are with money crap. My h. and are are in the thick of it. How much and how retirement is determined and the length of spousal support are our hot issues right now. You totally deserve pension. What does the law say? I seen websites specifically dealing with military retirement pension and divorce. But your lawyer should be able to help. Hang oin there.
Posted By: BklynMom Re: The Space Between... - 04/01/12 10:18 PM
He is looking to see you as unreasonable. Nothing you will say will be logical to him. I suggest when he engages in the conversation again you say "I will do whatever my L recommends" and try to leave it at that. It doesnt matter that you are right. He will never (at this point) agree with you. He will seek out people that only agree with him. Take yourself out of the debate.
Posted By: 2chiquitos Re: The Space Between... - 04/01/12 10:28 PM
Good luck Purg. You got a lot of great advice. I was going to say just about the same as everyone else. Keep the talk simple. If he wants to go back and forth, have him talk to your L. That's why you have a L. Continue what you're doing. Maintaining your serenity. Don't engage in his defensive talk.

Thinking of you...
Posted By: purgatory Re: The Space Between... - 04/01/12 11:19 PM
Thanks ladies!! I'll let you all know how it goes later smile I'll try to remain non-emotional, but don't hold your breath!
Posted By: NLW Re: The Space Between... - 04/01/12 11:44 PM
Hi Purg,

So sorry you are going through this stuff - you're right, it is almost impossible to keep the emotion out of these discussions.

My experience is that it's best just to let H have his say (i.e. tell me what he expects me to do) on whatever financial issue he has a bee in his bonnet about.

But then I say that I need some time to think about it.

That is, don't be dragged into a discussion/argument on the spot.

Then you can get back to him via email or text - anything where you can create a record of the interaction.

This may help to curtail his more excessive/outrageous demands- or alternately, it provides evidence of what he was trying to get you to do if things need to go to court.

I feel bad about suggesting this sort of thing in relation to someone we thought we could trust, but we do need to protect ourselves financially.
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: The Space Between... - 04/02/12 12:19 AM
Originally Posted By: BklynMom
I suggest when he engages in the conversation again you say "I will do whatever my L recommends" and try to leave it at that. It doesnt matter that you are right. He will never (at this point) agree with you. He will seek out people that only agree with him. Take yourself out of the debate.


I totally agree w/ BK here. He will not like it but I think it's best for you to defer to your L.

Soooo sorry Purg, such a tough conversation and time to move through. We all have your back on here. smile
Posted By: ces67 Re: The Space Between... - 04/02/12 02:54 AM
((((P)))))

I'm with LaBug, you earned that pension as well. You were a team, he was working and you taking care of the family. That's how it goes.

And also, this does sound like stuff the lawyers need to deal with. Sorry. I bet that sounds way too final for you. But maybe if they deal with that stuff you all can set it aside when you're together.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Space Between... - 04/03/12 09:19 PM
Purg

when I was in the Army JAG Corps, I frequently had to explain to the service member that the spouse HAD EARNED THE RETIREMENT in the eyes of the mlitary, so it's not the soldier's money to "give"; it's the military's.


You earned it by enabling the father of your children to deploy. HIS feelings and opinions, and his needs and your future needs, are irrelevant.

It's NOT HIS to give/take; it's the military's....

in sum, your h's views are simply way out of date.

I will say this. Disability pay (if he gets injured there OR later on in life) can change things in ways that only hurt you, financially...but it's too complicated to put here, so you will need to talk to a lawyer who understands the military pension aspects

and since you ARE entitled to free legal advice on base NOW, so get it...see Legal Assistance.


BTW
My sister was married to an AF Pilot for 13 years, NO kids...She did have a lot of functions to host AND

She had to move a lot,
and to some weird places, so HE could fly the fastest "coolest" Planes, and get promoted. Her h put off having kids and then left her for OW and then had a kid...ANYHOW...

She gets a third of his retirement.

She remarried and she still gets it
b/c It's NOT alimony or spousal support,

it's money she earned from the AF, by being willing to live in places that enabled a very well trained pilot to keep flying. The military "traded" her some financial security for that, and b/c she was not able to build a career for herself, moving so often.


It's $1000 a month now and she gets it b/c she "earned it" not b/c she cannot support herself.

(btw-I visited her in the summer in Iceland, where she lived there 3 years. Trust me, she earned it living there.)

They also had several one year assignments in some God forsaken places like deserts, where he could do fancy tricks in his uber cool plane...


Your h is Navy so when he's gone, he's GONE on a ship, hard to call or see for a weekend...

as for deployments-- he really misses the point about you being a SOLO single parent when he's gone. Not to mention the free floating angst that goes with knowing they are in harm's way...

which he'll minimize b/c he will say HE is the one over there..but that's him pretending his choices are made in a vacuum,

as if no one else is affected. It's a convenient self centeredness.

Being a SOLO single parent is very different than having every other weekend off...which I guess he will understand when he has those times with the kids Ask him if weekends with them, are better than being gone a whole year

and say " but you would have been gone anyhow" (what??? I still don't get what he's saying
[b]
unless he's equating your being a SOLO parent with the other parent being deployed, with a typical divorced couple
where you COULD always call him in a pinch, and you'd know you'll get a break every other weekend AND the kids would have some of their daddy needs met, rather than you doing it all, without a break, for a year!...)

Geez, He's just not able to see it clearly - but Bravo for you staying calm!


He's so not able to see this objectively. But you don't have to listen to him rant. You may have to say something to him when he gets nutty.

Calmly express your requirement that you be treated with respect.

"H, you seem too upset to see this objectively and I'm not sure we're getting anywhere discussing this now"...

then YOU be the one to get off the phone or leave.

It'd be a 180 AND you'd be the calmer party. Just a thought.

ALSO- while it MAY be only $300 in today's dollars, (check that amount b/c I don't recall how long your h has been in the military and if all your time married was in the service)

My sister also gets a COLA increase every year or so. Don't pooh pooh that.

The amount you are stating here,($300 a month) is about what an IRA contribution is, so, don't you dare give the military pension you earned, to him...

unless he's trading it for something better.
Does he have IRAs or real estate interests you might want?

OTherwise, it's a legal matter best left for the lawyers.

Try hard to compartmentalize this. You want him to associate the "ugly legalities" (that HE created) with lawyers,

and

pleasant calm MATURE behavior, with you...make sense?


(((( ))))
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Space Between... - 04/03/12 09:22 PM
PS

sorry that was so long. I got "motivated" b/c it pushes a button in me when I have my

"flashbacks" of soldiers leaving their spouses...one guy w/19 years in, wanted to get out of the Army

JUST SO his wife would not get any retirement (and neither would he)...

I suggested he retain another lawyer b/c I could not pursue that course of action b/c I thought it was against HIS interests

(and also, really sleazy....)

You really are making progress Purg. Maybe your h is too. But remember it's not a linear path.

((( )))
Posted By: purgatory Re: The Space Between... - 04/09/12 06:38 PM
25- I always value your insight, especially with the tricky legal military aspects. As of now, his L has sent the most updated version of our papers to my L and I have a meeting next week to discuss the details. I am stil adamant about not signing until he gets back- and I can't see how H will react any differently than to blow up on me.... Do maybe I'll just have my L tell his L?

Lots of R talk has taken place off and on over the last few weeks. Some triggered by choices he's made and some brought up by him. There's been positives and negatives said- but I always remained calm and validated (for the most part.) Once or twice I found myself getting very enraged and I had to stop myself from continuing the conversation (of course he'll never give me credit for stopping, he'll only focus/remember that I raised my voice.) I actually learned a lot from him about what he's looking for and what he still holds over me- not easy to listen to, but helpful pieces of the puzzle.

At one point, he actually asked me: "so after everything that has happened, you still dot want the D? Aren't you afraid I would do it again?" I explained that if he turned around tomorrow, that I would say "ok" and focus on *this* day forward; leave the past in the past. We would start slow by dating and getting to know each other again; I have no expectation that we could just jump back into a full R. He listened and only said: "that's not an option for me."

This ^^^^ was Saturday. On Sunday, he brought up some $$ talk which led into a bunch of related topics, and somehow ended up at how I've supported his endeavors (professional and private) over the years. Most recently his gym training for a competition this weekend. I mentioned that it hurt that he hadn't invited me to come watch, since I have been his biggest supporter (keeping the kids on his nights, keeping up with his crazy diets, ect.) He accused me of being selfish and how dare I *expect* to come watch- since "I don't want to there." He said that he never would have taken my help had he known what my "payment" would be; that in order to be considered a selfless act, it has to be done with no expectations.

For some reason, this conversation really hit a nerve with me and I let loose (calmly) about how I feel taken advantage of and unappreciated. I also told him that I didn't want him to come to the hospital fort tests and surgery (it was the onl thing I could think of that was similar to his competition) an left te room crying.

I got an email (an email?!?! He was just downstairs and could have told me in person). To summarize, he basically said that our talk was like reliving the last 7 years of our R and it was rough for him. He needs space to 'heal his wounds' and he's just realizing how deep his wounds go. He also said thanks for all the support, but 'let him finish it on his own.'

So now Purg is going to attempt the LRT. Only communicate if *he* initiates and only about kids. Wish me luck!!

(today, I got a text from him asking if I read the papers and an email wrapping up the $$ talk we attempted to start on Sun. I only responded saying that I ha a meeting with my L to discuss the papers and I responded to the email saying that I understood where he was coming from and he has the right to be concerned about financial stability for his kids.... No response from him.)
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: The Space Between... - 04/09/12 07:11 PM
(((Purg)))

Tough times Purg, sorry your h still seems to be a d. Hopefully the LRT will change the dynamic up some.

I have moved into a new phase of detachment w/ my w and have dropped the rope as much as I am capable of at this time. Their are times that it is so freeing just worrying about what's best for you and not thinking about every little thing you do regarding your WAS.

Of course their are times when it is extremely painful as well but those times are less and less as time goes on.

Wishing and hoping the best for you. Your not in this alone! smile
Posted By: nhmom Re: The Space Between... - 04/09/12 07:38 PM
Purg,

As you're continuing on this roller coaster ride, just remember how far you've come in the last few months, how strong you have become.

Originally Posted By: purgatory
I actually learned a lot from him about what he's looking for and what he still holds over me- not easy to listen to, but helpful pieces of the puzzle.


My C told me in one of my sessions that we should take it as a positive when the WAS is "sharing" why they feel hurt. As much as it hurts to hear it and to be blamed for all that's gone wrong, the C said to try to let the words bounce off you and pay attention to what they are saying. Once we understand where they are coming from, it is then when we are really able to put all of the pieces together. It sounds like you're already doing that, so that's great.

Your H is asking for time and space to "heal his wounds". He's got a one year deployment coming up....plenty of time as space. Stay strong and stand by your decision to hold off on D until after the deployment.

((Purg))
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Space Between... - 04/09/12 09:18 PM
Purg,

First, ask a JAG this b/c my info may be out of date. A civilian lawyer will probably NOT know this and it's a question a JAG can answer - even if he/she cannot represent you in court without admission to practice in that particular state.

But if I recall correctly,

as soon as you hit 10 years of m, that overlap with years in military service, you will be entitled to a 1/4 of his retirement.

So HE might not want to hit that mark, if you KWIM. Do you know the formula of which I speak? Were all your years of marriage while he was in the military?

Say, he serves 20 years in the Military and then retires - AND say that you were married the whole 20 years. Then you divorce. In that scenario,

You'd get HALF of the pension you BOTH contributed toward the creation of (not from him, but from the Navy). He'd obviously get the other half.

But say you were only married 3/4 of that 20 years of service...

Then you get half of the 15 years that you were married WHILE he was also in the service (i.e., = half of 3/4 of his retirement), which is something like
37.5 %.

And if you were married 10 of his 20 years in, you get half of the half...make sense? Have I totally lost you? The "half of the half" is that you get half of the amount of pension he had accrued at the time of the divorce, which is half of the 20. So TODAY if he has 10 years in he Navy AND 10 years of marriage (and then he goes on to the full 20 as a single man)
then when he retires, the Navy will pay you half of what was accrued when the marriage ended...half of the half...so, 1/4.

(Geez - have a JAG write it out or draw it

if this is as confusing as it's sounding to me (and I UNDERSTAND IT...so much for being a "great teacher")

So that is how I came to say you'd get 1/4 of his retirement if you can get to the 10 year mark. You were married to him for half of the time he was in the service, so you get half of THAT overlapping (marriage + service years) time.

I assumed he'd go active duty for 20 years & retire and I assumed he was in the service the whole time you were married? (Let's hope so, or my #s are way off)

**IF he remains in the service longer that does not hurt you except it delays when his payments begin, but you can't do anything about that AND his pension would also be more, so don't worry about it. NO CONTROL anyhow.

So if you can, put off signing til he returns "in case something happens to him, AND for the full protection of the kids AND for your medical care"

and you can promise to sign it all when he returns

IF he still feels the same.


It may seem like pursuit but we're talking about your legal interests now, so who cares? Plus, it buys you time and he MAY change anyhow.

Besides, what's it to him? He'll be getting all the wonderful "space" from you that he says he needs...with or without a signed paper & w/or without a divorce.

What's the rush to sign before he leaves? Being divorced/divorcing before he leaves-- Won't that traumatize the kids MORE b/c they won't know what to hope for, or expect upon his return?

It won't be a normal homecoming will it? Will he come "home" to another state or family?
Those are things that might cross the older one's mind...maybe.

(Of course the cynic is me says, the rush is that he knows the 10 year rule).

But don't ask about it or concede that you know...not yet anyhow.


ALSO if that discussion you two had, the heated discussion in which painful things were said to you, but in which you mainly remained calm, REMINDED him of the past 7 years of marriage, I guess I'd take that as a compliment

or a lot of revising by him.
It'd be hard to let that comment pass by. Of course maybe I misread it. How do you feel you handled it, given the 180s you want to show? I didn't pick up on a big backslide.

I wonder if You can ask him whether he thinks he'll EVER get past feeling victimized by you,

no matter what you do or say or for how long,
or however genuine the changes are? If not, why not?

What does that say about his resentment and anger issues?

Didn't he once say that you seemed angry often, and that you held onto things too long and stayed mad all the time..

hmmm. interesting. I mean, talk about holding a grudge. But be ready--
Be ready for him to say "YOU made me this way. YOU taught me How to be angry & not let things go"....

but hey, at least YOU are learning how.


Maybe neither of you knew how to forgive. I never saw it growing up. Did you? Did he?

And you already see how freeing it is.

You can hope for his sake, that he learns it too. cool

If he reminds you that there is no hope for the m, no matter how many "so called changes" you make, you can also say, "Fine H. No matter - B/C IT's not about YOU. The changes are about how I like being my best self for me and for my loved ones..."

and let him wonder if he's in that group.

(OR you can bag all my smarmy comments b/c I'm a little cranky today--

or am I just seeing things MORE clearly??)
cool

ANYHOW---

So check w/JAG about that 10 year "rule" b/c if it's true, then you DO need to stick by it (and it'd also explains his concern.)

B/c if it is really JUST about him wanting "space", and "no expectations from you", well you sure can give that to him when he's 3000 miles away.

To me, that seems like a lot of space.

You may want to act as if you are only focussed on making sure he is sure of his choice, which is true,

and your health/the medical insurance aspects...indicating no awareness of the 10 year rule (if it still applies).

ALSO make sure you focus on this aspect re your medical care--& protect yourself that way too...

"what if it turns out that I'm worse or what if I get worse? What if the surgery fails? What if my recovery time takes longer and I can't work then? If I have no insurance then what? (And there's a real chance Obamacare will be reversed so don't let him say all is well on that front)

"What if I deteriorate or blah blah blah?--insert worst case horrible scenario and toss in a few you MAYBE read about somewhere--and let that sink into his ears.

Does he really HAVE to dump you before leaving for a year, when it risks your life? What's up with that?

Also YOU are still entitled to FEEL worried & anxious for him, and sadness at what he'll miss from the boy's lives, which you know hurts him too...(not to mention how hurt you are for other reasons, best left unsaid for now.)

AND Purg, believe me, since my h's deployment is rapidly approaching I WILL be reading up on all this.

BTW SIDENOTE--why does the military send my h's deployment supplies (which he was told he'd get over there anyhow) to our house, in the shape and size of a coffin? I am serious. My kids stared at it and said "what's IN there?"

Also- what is with making my h and his peeps taking so many days off now, away from home, (costing us money too b/c his reserve pay is less than half his regular private practice pay) all to "prepare" for deployment? Just go already, get it over with and come back!

So -back to earth - signing something other than divorce papers, before he goes, serves what purpose? Is it simply an agreement between you two that gets notarized OR is it something that later = the divorce decree?
ASK a lawyer there.

Say, are you going to the EE workshop this month? I have 2 friends who are going, and one lives near you!...(& she's a T!)

Meanwhile, keep on keeping on! H's CAN Change their minds and hearts, just like we can.
So keep your head on straight and stay busy GAL and doing the 180s...


((( )))
Posted By: purgatory Re: The Space Between... - 04/09/12 11:14 PM
SAIS- I know you're going through a painful phase with your W, thanks for checking on me.
Nhmom- thanks for sharing your C's insight- it does make a lo of sense. Of he didn't care in some way, then he wouldn't feel the need to share... And boy, does he share a lot!!

25- thanks for giving me things to look into. A few answers to your questions:

Yes, I know about the formula for retirement pay, and I'm guessing that was one of the reasons he changed his mind about staying separated indefinitely. We've been M 7 years, 6 of which have been in the Navy.

The papers that he wants to sign are legal separation documents, which at a years mark, become the divorce decree. If I sign them, this November 2012- we would be D. And he doesn't come home until August 2013. If I sign when he gets back, we couldn't be D until August 2014. I have a meeting with my L next week to discuss my options.

I received the same 'coffin' of supplies- kind of an ominous visual smirk
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Space Between... - 04/10/12 01:55 AM
Originally Posted By: purgatory
SAIS- I know you're going through a painful phase with your W, thanks for checking on me.

25- thanks for giving me things to look into. A few answers to your questions:

Yes, I know about the formula for retirement pay, and I'm guessing that was one of the reasons he changed his mind about staying separated indefinitely. We've been M 7 years, 6 of which have been in the Navy.


ah, bummer! I misread and thought you'd been married for 9 years, and only needed one more year to make the minimum. Is there still a 10 year minimum, or can they use the formula regardess of length of the marriage/service overlap?

Seems to me, if the 10 year mark, as a minimum, does not apply (but the formula otherwise does) then why not give you 1/6 if you are married a third of the time he serves? Geez, You're the one that enabled him to serve and get deployed, and cared for his kids (and had them, etc). You are why he could sleep at night, do the mission he had, and not worry so much that he lost focus...

Assume however, that you'd have to be m for 10 years to get ANY of his retirement...okay then-his rush to divorce makes LESS sense, not more!

You can still make all the same arguments for staying m while he's gone but now they are stronger arguments even FOR HIS INTERESTS...

Meaning, if you aren't going to get any of his pension without being married for at least 10 years, then WHY deny you all the benefits while he's gone anyhow? He gets to have his frickin' "space"?

You are not costing or denying him anything while he's gone that he would not "lose" already by having kids (meaning, certain assignments for truly single 'no dependents' type of macho jobs)...so what gives? Why rush the divorce thru before leaving for Afghan??

To punish you? Hmmm

As the mother of his children - he won't believe that punishing you is a factor at all, consciously...but that means he ought to be able to articulate the reasons.

Is it so he can go to Afghan as a single dude---you know, and go to the wild dance clubs, and crazy bars open all night there, as a "crazy single guy" in fancy cosmopolitan Kabul?


Purg, I'm sincerely asking--

how is divorcing you NOW, rather than a year later, harming his legal or financial interests, if it'll only go from 7 years of m, to 8??

Isn't the mere possibility that you could be really harmed (medically) enough to give him pause?

AND OR

the possibility, however remote in his eyes, that he MIGHT want to re-think ending a marriage/family with children, as he sees that your changes are lasting & REAL...

enough to make him SLOW DOWN?

Lest we forget, a mere year ago, he felt very differently than he says he does now (never mind his claim of constant misery.) The question remains, why won't/can't he feel another way a year from now?

Here in DB land, we know he can change his mind and heart and probably will. Which direction, we're not sure but the one thing that is constant in all this, is CHANGE...

So what's up with not even waiting til he gets back?

What is he so afraid of happening? That he might awaken to your awakening?

THEN WHAT? What bad thing might happen? It might not work out and that means...you're in the same place you'd be anyhow...

OR

you could restore the marriage to something even better than it was before b/c now you have the good memories, the love AND the tools!!

Then what?

You could give your children a real legacy of what

redemption and forgiveness look like &

they could pass that on down to their children, and so on,

b/c like divorce, marital success can run in families...?


What's the other "worst thing" that could happen by his waiting to file?

That he "loses" OW? (Well gee, that's one damn secure "soulmate" relationship if I ever saw one...)

Why would she wait for him IF he files for divorce, but NOT wait if he doesn't?


There IS another possibility- that he's morphed into the type of man who is a "ALL blinders on. Must -accomplish- mission & LATER examine- whether-the- mission- was- the- right- one- AND- that- it- was- done- correctly"...

In my sitch, eventually I just released my h to his task. Going back to school (for an expensive & Uneccessary credential, to add to his pile and cost us a fortune) ALL so he could end up on the tundra, had become a holy grail for him.

The only people he could hear were his mentors (the "heroes" as I refer to them) who bragged about their riches and pursued him a LOT...

My H had his blinders on, Purg. Those blinders made him nearly irrational when we discussed his choices. If it was -45'F there, he'd say it was "brisk", (not "freakishly cold".)

Nothing anyone said about the move to Alaska

or the contract he had been given, or the money or the costs/benefits could be "heard" by him. Least of all words from ME.

He said I was "raining on his parade" and "just being negative" when I mentioned the clauses in his contract that would have prevented me from letting any of my clients sign. I mean that literally.

The contract was that bad. As of today, there are at least 4 different lawsuits involving the hero's company. The only reason we got out of there without more of a hassle was that his mom was dying.

But I learned something valuable. Aside from blinders that MAY mean you ought to stop wasting your breath/time... there is this:


I found after 3 decades of m, the ability to remain silent at times, and the tone/volume I use in speaking, is just as important, if not more so, than the content of what I say.


That's hard for me, b/c as a lawyer I'm a "wordsmith." I use words as tools. So It nearly killed me to grasp this concept - but it has also helped me too.

So why won't your h delay the divorce? Good reasons exist for waiting, including a huge one called the medical issues...so did I miss something?

Is "someone" wanting him to be free? (IS she even free yet?) I mean LEGALLY, is OW's own divorce even final?

God knows she sure acts like it.


sorry, I'm cranky...I

ANYHOW...


The papers that he wants to sign are legal separation documents, which at a years mark, become the divorce decree. If I sign them, this November 2012- we would be D

and how long would the m be in November? When is your wedding anniversary?
BTW-
If you ML after he left, or after the date of whenever he says the sep began, you can sometimes start the clock all over from that date. Not saying you ought to (or not) but it can be a factor. Ask the L...



. And he doesn't come home until August 2013. If I sign when he gets back, we couldn't be D until August 2014. I have a meeting with my L next week to discuss my options.

You mean the paperwork would not BEGIN til 2013 & then it'd be completed in 2014, b/c of a one year waiting period from time of filing?

Would that make it to 10 years of m?

Either way I like that ^^^^ better, obviously.

Do you like the L you have? That's important. You don't want to have regrets or weird feelings in your stomach about how lousy the deal was or what a loser your L was years from now...it's a hard enough situation to face - if you at least like your L, it helps so much. Hating your own counsel makes a nightmare last longer.

If you trust them then make the best of the cards you were dealt and we'll all support you with your plans. cool

(((( ))))


I received the same 'coffin' of supplies- kind of an ominous visual smirk




I'm sorry he was such a jerk about the graduation you wanted to attend.

He's showing a side to himself you were not aware of
but now that it's clearly present, YOU will see him in a new light.

And he may see himself that way too. But rather than saying he should be a better h, chances are he'll say you "make" him "that way."
A bit convenient. But telling. Just as WAS's revise the marriage so that it was a "living nightmare the WHOLE time"...

sometimes LBSers glorify their spouses as if they are flawless and no one else can compare. Just something to ponder.

(((( ))))
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Space Between... - 04/12/12 01:59 AM
purg

how are you these days?

Don't drop off the face of the earth. You don't have to write a novel - but let us know you are alright.

((( )))
Posted By: purgatory Re: The Space Between... - 04/13/12 09:43 PM
H has been tinkering in the garage with woodwork- I'm actually glad he's found an outlet for his energy. HOWEVER- I found a ring that he crafted. It was small enough to fit my finger. That night I also found a matching man's ring (it was bigger and wider). I didn't go into the garage snooping- but all his projects were laid out on the workbench and I was impressed with them.

(I couldn't hold my mouth shut) when I asked him about them, I got some BS about selling them online- and when I told him to stop lying to me, he admitted that he would like to give it to OW, but he's not ready for that step yet (as if that was supposed to make me feel better.) After an hour talking, I cried like I haven't done since the bomb. I even hid in my car b/c it's the only place he wouldn't be able to hear me.

Other things I heard in our talk:
- Love is not a choice, and you can never convince me otherwise.
- We had a relationship, now it's done- that should be the end of it.
- People are capable of change, but there are certain things that you will never be able to change and those are what will keep me from loving you again. (when I said that these things obviously didn't matter 9 years ago) he said: "I was wrong 9 years ago."
- Moving on is easier with someone next to you .(I asked why he couldn't even try to heal/ find his happiness alone) He said he shouldn't have to of there's something available.

So with all of this rolling around in my head all night, I'm coming to the conclusion that I need to just give up. This guy has been gone for a while and I was to stupid to realize that there is nothing I can do about it.

I just can't see that someone would ever have a change of heart after all this. In only 5 months he has: gotten a lawyer, drawn up separation papers, changed his Will, moved out, made matching rings for himself and OW, an is willing to break the rules to keep up communication with her.
Posted By: fightingforit Re: The Space Between... - 04/13/12 10:17 PM

Purgatory-
Sorry to hear you are in this place. I also have really young children and I am shocked and hurt, for myself somewhat but really for them more than anything. He says a lot of the same things my husband does, and it hurts. I don't have any great advice but that I am thinking of you and I know how sad you must feel.
When I feel really bad I wipe away my tears and cuddle with my kids:)
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Space Between... - 04/13/12 11:30 PM
oh Purg....

wth? I feel so bad for you. I'll post when I can write more. I hope to God you know you will be alright no matter what happens.

And your h's infatuation with OW (b/c It IS NOT love, sorry but I don't buy that) will end when life (insert dramatic James Dean voice here )

isn't "tearing them apart!!!" IOW when reality sinks in and the mess they are creating for two families and maybe a career too, hits them.

It can only improve for you and only deteriorate for him...not to seek revenge...

just sayin'

sending you major hugs

((((( !!! ))))

cry
Posted By: NLW Re: The Space Between... - 04/14/12 12:12 AM
Purg, So sorry that you had to go through this.

He is obviously fantasising and experimenting - he's not sure what he's doing.

If you can, try to think about the need to give him time to work through his mess.
It is 5 months - but that's not long in the scheme of things.

I'm desperate for some movement in a positive direction from my H at the moment, just like you.

And when I don't see any, I decide I will have to settle for closure - i.e. being done with what I should recognise as a hopeless situation.

BUT... then I remember that DB says don't lose hope.

Be more patient than you thought you could ever be.

Give your S TIME to work through his turmoil.

And understand that what they say and do today may not be what they say and do tomorrow.

And while you are still working on your self and with him, you still have the opportunity, at every interaction, to change the dynamic between you.

It may take a year, not 5 months; it may take 2 years.

Keep this sort of time frame in mind and then think about how you want to proceed. Would it be worth it if you had to wait longer for things to get better?

We're here to help you endure the sad times and to share the suffering. We know how hard it is.

Big hugs to you,
NLW
Posted By: zig Re: The Space Between... - 04/14/12 12:53 AM
And when I don't see any, I decide I will have to settle for closure - i.e. being done with what I should recognise as a hopeless situation.

BUT... then I remember that DB says don't lose hope.


yes exactly - after i heard mil say today that she had given up hope, i lost hope - then i sat and read LRT in the DR book and i am filled with hope again. are we fooling ourselves or is it a combo of having faith,letting go and moving forward

this is the real pain we feel isn't it?
Posted By: ces67 Re: The Space Between... - 04/14/12 12:55 AM
((((P))))

You're an amazing person no matter how crazy the alien-husband is. Its going to hurt because you care. Then remember how strong you are.
Posted By: RoRoinMD Re: The Space Between... - 04/14/12 12:57 AM
(((Purg))) I am so sorry you are going through this. Just know the changes you are making are for you and your children. They will make you a better mother and a better you.

Maybe your H will catch up. Maybe he won't. But you will know you gave it your all, and will come out on top no matter what!
Posted By: wishing, hoping Re: The Space Between... - 04/14/12 02:03 AM
I am so sorry to read this. Sounds like your H is living in the fantasy world instead of the real world like mine. One day they will wake up and realized how foolish they were. Perhaps by then it will be too late.

Hugs!!!
Posted By: BklynMom Re: The Space Between... - 04/14/12 11:30 AM
I feel your pain because I feel the same pain. The pain is unimaginable.

Dont give up hope. Fighting for your family and your children is the most noble cause. You are not the fool, he is.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Space Between... - 04/15/12 06:46 PM
Originally Posted By: NLW
Purg, So sorry that you had to go through this.

He is obviously fantasising and experimenting - he's not sure what he's doing.



this^^ is important to remember. You two didn't fall in love THIS FAST those years ago and then make rings to show the world your committment did you?

So he's in a hurry to "feel in love" again, and she's his target b/c let's face it

YOU require him undoing his negative imaging of you and the marriage
(and in fairness to him, being back w/you requires forgiveness he doesn't feel like giving) AND besides, he also has to justify to the world, what he's doing so far...so that takes outward "Signs of REAL love"

like making them matching rings so he can show the world, "yes it's ALL worth it" and so he won't feel so lonely while deployed.

Is she beautiful smart and kind and funny and always in the mood for great sex? Honestly? Does she work hard and contribute income and keep a decent house and cook well and is she strong and interesting??

Worst case scenario, life situations, deploying, and career pressures give them an artificial sense of bonding, b/c it's "them against the world" while the evil forces keep them apart.


All you can do is not be part of THAT. And show who you have become.


There WILL be a crack in their veneers as time passes and they spend some time together. All will NOT be perfect. She'll see that OMG "HE has flaws too... & I thought I'd fixed all my problems by ending my first m...oops"

and you are the mother of his children.
When he sees you raising YOUR/HIS children and working and yet being Mother Frickin' Teresa Purg and

a woman only a fool would leave...who is moving forward in her life...


LET him get to deal with the mess of his potential step children looking at him, and knowing...and looking at their mother...and knowing...and being teenagers AND him missing his kids as they get older, oh yes -there WILL be cracks/crevasses.

If you can, try to think about the need to give him time to work through his mess.
It is 5 months - but that's not long in the scheme of things.


5 months is NOT long but sure, I wish there was a faster way, or that you could push "fast forward"...

even though you assume he'll fantasize about OW while gone, he will, at a minimum, also ache for the arms of his own children. She cannot provide that.

And some say that "absence makes the heart grow fonder" and IT CAN...

but there's also "absence makes the heart go wander..." and he may even feel attracted to someone there and that will make him wonder if MAYBE this is about HIM and not being happy in his marriage

and thinking that a divorce will fix all his problems. But erasing you from the family photo does not work, and it does not fix the problems. OMG if he could only see the pain he's creating for others AND himself...

EX---SIDENOTE--a decade after my uncle left my aunt for his OW, he told his mother that if he'd "Known how much pain this would cause" he'd have stayed w/aunt. But the truth is, he cheated on OW too...

So my aunt was truly better off without him, and she fully realized it one day when OW (the "new wife" of 8 years) called my aunt to see if my uncle was there, at aunt's house!!...Aunt said "God, NO..."

and then it hit her that he was always going to cheat and make his partner feel that sick in the stomach feeling...so, he'd done her a favor.

She had remarried, was happy, but became a widow suddenly after 25 years. After about 2 years of being alone (but w/tons of friends), she picked herself up, again, and dusted herself off and re-joined the world (she GAL!!!)

and men always seemed to seek her out. (She's attractive & in shape but also she is inwardly content and at peace, AND that radiates & it's just attractive)

So now she's 72, she looks 50, and has been dating a younger man she met @ a "current events club" & they've been together for a few years now b/c, I kid you not, she says "He's so active, and the sex is really good."...


My uncle still lives with the fact that another man raised his kids, and that his grandchildren barely know him whereas my aunt is involved in their lives on nearly a daily basis... My aunt is happy. I don't know what my uncle is but if he'd found his "true love" with OW, he would not have continued to stray forever...something in him was not alright and he never looked inward to repair it.

WE, otoh, do look inward to repair what's not working in our lives. That is why the LBSer who does the inner work and practices DBing, is universally better off after a few years, then the WAS who does not look inward or do the work.




I'm desperate for some movement in a positive direction from my H at the moment, just like you.

And when I don't see any, I decide I will have to settle for closure - i.e. being done with what I should recognise as a hopeless situation.

BUT... then I remember that DB says don't lose hope.

Be more patient than you thought you could ever be.

Give your S TIME to work through his turmoil.

And understand that what they say and do today may not be what they say and do tomorrow.

And while you are still working on your self and with him, you still have the opportunity, at every interaction, to change the dynamic between you.

It may take a year, not 5 months; it may take 2 years.

Keep this sort of time frame in mind and then think about how you want to proceed. Would it be worth it if you had to wait longer for things to get better?

We're here to help you endure the sad times and to share the suffering. We know how hard it is.

Big hugs to you,
NLW


good stuff from NLW.


If Purg, the time comes when they marry and go off into the sunset -we'll be here for you.

OR if you, Purg, decide that moving forward has brought you to a place where you can no longer look over your shoulder with hope that he's awakened...b/c you want real freedom all the way

or b/c you feel you are still in limbo (purgatory) and want out for real,

then we'll support you letting go and shutting the door AND locking it

as you find your way in the world or in a new R...

but that day isn't today...


(((( ))))
Posted By: hopingandpraying Re: The Space Between... - 04/16/12 01:44 AM
Purg,

I am thinking about you and wishing you the very best in your situation. You are stronger than you know.

25, your advice is wonderful....and NLW...GREAT!!
Posted By: purgatory Re: The Space Between... - 04/20/12 03:19 PM
I've been letting all of this float around in my head for the last few days... I really appreciate the time you all take to give such detailed advice and insights.

My thoughts are in blue:

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Originally Posted By: NLW
Purg, So sorry that you had to go through this.

He is obviously fantasising and experimenting - he's not sure what he's doing.



this^^ is important to remember. You two didn't fall in love THIS FAST those years ago and then make rings to show the world your committment did you?

So he's in a hurry to "feel in love" again, and she's his target b/c let's face it

YOU require him undoing his negative imaging of you and the marriage
(and in fairness to him, being back w/you requires forgiveness he doesn't feel like giving) [color:#3333FF]*He actually said that he feel I don't "deserve" his love... it hurt to hear that, but I'm grateful to have a few more details to understand his perspective.*
AND besides, he also has to justify to the world, what he's doing so far...so that takes outward "Signs of REAL love"

like making them matching rings so he can show the world, "yes it's ALL worth it" and so he won't feel so lonely while deployed. *This thought makes me sick to my stomach. It also makes me so angry to know that he's presenting this image to the rest of the world, and at the same time telling everyone how awful I was and how wonderful OW is (that is if he even mentions me at all.) I can't imagine what our mutual friends think about all this (they don't talk to me anymore.)*

Is she beautiful smart and kind and funny and always in the mood for great sex? Honestly? Does she work hard and contribute income and keep a decent house and cook well and is she strong and interesting??
*She was raised to be "ready and available" whenever her H wants sex- she confessed this to me a while ago- and seems content to do it. As with many things in her life, she lets others make the decisions and she doesn't know how to say no. She never went to college and she's never had a job outside of being a wife and mom for the last 16 years. I am shocked that my H would be attracted to someone who is the opposite of everything he's ever told me that he finds attractive in a woman: a focus/motivation, independence, career goals, a mind of their own. Anyone who has seen OW in person or in a photo, says that they can't see what the attraction is in her.*
Worst case scenario, life situations, deploying, and career pressures give them an artificial sense of bonding, b/c it's "them against the world" while the evil forces keep them apart. *this makes sense... but I don't like it.*
All you can do is not be part of THAT. And show who you have become.
*I believe that I continue to do this, yet he has become more irritable and annoyed with me lately (the last few weeks). He seems to find something to criticize everyday, some that are really silly! I would have hoped that it would have caused a softening in him instead.*

There WILL be a crack in their veneers as time passes and they spend some time together. *They can't have an attempt at a 'real' R until he comes back, so until then, I'm afraid that they will be living the "us against the world" perspective until he returns... that can only serve to make them more determined to stay together, GRRRRR!*
All will NOT be perfect.She'll see that OMG "HE has flaws too... & I thought I'd fixed all my problems by ending my first m...oops"
and you are the mother of his children. When he sees you raising YOUR/HIS children and working and yet being Mother Frickin' Teresa Purg and
a woman only a fool would leave...who is moving forward in her life...
*this is my goal while he's deployed... I'm not quite sure how to *do* this*
LET him get to deal with the mess of his potential step children looking at him, and knowing...and looking at their mother...and knowing...and being teenagers AND him missing his kids as they get older, oh yes -there WILL be cracks/crevasses.[/color] *I have no clue how her kids will react to this, or what they are currently thinking. I mean, my H has always been a person in their lives, so in that sense, nothing has changed. But I have no idea what they will think when they see them hold hands or kiss... will they even notice?? Will they be happy for their mom? And at the same time, how can a mom want to set that example for 3 daughters?! "See girls, it's ok that [purg] isn't in your life anymore b/c uncle[C] is still here and guess what?! He gets to be your new daddy!" Will they be confused??*
If you can, try to think about the need to give him time to work through his mess. It is 5 months - but that's not long in the scheme of things.
*You're right. In the almost 10 years that we've been together, 5 months in a drop in the bucket. He's admitted that he's proud of the changes that he's seen, "but its not enough". I've also seen him almost cry when we're talking and then he forces himself to get angry and turn something around on me. We've almost switched sides in our communication style- I have a greater appreciation for what he felt like during our talks.*

5 months is NOT long but sure, I wish there was a faster way, or that you could push "fast forward"...

even though you assume he'll fantasize about OW while gone, he will, at a minimum, also ache for the arms of his own children. She cannot provide that.
[color:#3333FF]*He will ache for his kids, but how can *I* provide that either? I'm not sure that the even associates me with the kids.... they are his kids and I just happen to be the woman who takes care of them*


And some say that "absence makes the heart grow fonder" and IT CAN...
but there's also "absence makes the heart go wander..." and he may even feel attracted to someone there and that will make him wonder if MAYBE this is about HIM and not being happy in his marriage *I almost hope that he becomes interested in someone over there... OW will learn what this feels like. I've told H that I could handle all of this better with a stranger OW; there's too much history with my exBFF and the betrayal I feel is an added level of pain that I have to deal with on top of knowing that my H doesn't want me*

and thinking that a divorce will fix all his problems. But erasing you from the family photo does not work, and it does not fix the problems. OMG if he could only see the pain he's creating for others AND himself...


I'm desperate for some movement in a positive direction from my H at the moment, just like you.

And when I don't see any, I decide I will have to settle for closure - i.e. being done with what I should recognise as a hopeless situation.

BUT... then I remember that DB says don't lose hope.

Be more patient than you thought you could ever be.

Give your S TIME to work through his turmoil.

And understand that what they say and do today may not be what they say and do tomorrow.

And while you are still working on your self and with him, you still have the opportunity, at every interaction, to change the dynamic between you.

It may take a year, not 5 months; it may take 2 years.

Keep this sort of time frame in mind and then think about how you want to proceed. Would it be worth it if you had to wait longer for things to get better?

We're here to help you endure the sad times and to share the suffering. We know how hard it is.
*It's sad and comforting to know that other people out there can relate to this strange dynamic of moving on with your life yet at the same time keeping the door open for the WAS*
Big hugs to you,
NLW


good stuff from NLW.


If Purg, the time comes when they marry and go off into the sunset -we'll be here for you. [color:#3333FF]*I think I might need to be committed if this ever happens!*


OR if you, Purg, decide that moving forward has brought you to a place where you can no longer look over your shoulder with hope that he's awakened...b/c you want real freedom all the way
or b/c you feel you are still in limbo (purgatory) and want out for real,
then we'll support you letting go and shutting the door AND locking it
as you find your way in the world or in a new R...
*Lately I feel that I'm at this exact crossroads: Move on or continue to stand. My H has become a real jerk lately with his actions (making the rings). Part of me can't believe that I would ever want to be with a guy who acts like that... but then I remember that this isn't *him*- this is him in crisis. The things I've heard him say sound like they are coming out of a teenager's mouth*

but that day isn't today...

*still not today.... probably not tomorrow*

(((( ))))[/color]
Posted By: purgatory Re: The Space Between... - 04/20/12 03:19 PM
I've been letting all of this float around in my head for the last few days... I really appreciate the time you all take to give such detailed advice and insights.

My thoughts are in blue:

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Originally Posted By: NLW
Purg, So sorry that you had to go through this.

He is obviously fantasising and experimenting - he's not sure what he's doing.



this^^ is important to remember. You two didn't fall in love THIS FAST those years ago and then make rings to show the world your committment did you?

So he's in a hurry to "feel in love" again, and she's his target b/c let's face it

YOU require him undoing his negative imaging of you and the marriage
(and in fairness to him, being back w/you requires forgiveness he doesn't feel like giving) [color:#3333FF]*He actually said that he feel I don't "deserve" his love... it hurt to hear that, but I'm grateful to have a few more details to understand his perspective.*
AND besides, he also has to justify to the world, what he's doing so far...so that takes outward "Signs of REAL love"

like making them matching rings so he can show the world, "yes it's ALL worth it" and so he won't feel so lonely while deployed. *This thought makes me sick to my stomach. It also makes me so angry to know that he's presenting this image to the rest of the world, and at the same time telling everyone how awful I was and how wonderful OW is (that is if he even mentions me at all.) I can't imagine what our mutual friends think about all this (they don't talk to me anymore.)*

Is she beautiful smart and kind and funny and always in the mood for great sex? Honestly? Does she work hard and contribute income and keep a decent house and cook well and is she strong and interesting??
*She was raised to be "ready and available" whenever her H wants sex- she confessed this to me a while ago- and seems content to do it. As with many things in her life, she lets others make the decisions and she doesn't know how to say no. She never went to college and she's never had a job outside of being a wife and mom for the last 16 years. I am shocked that my H would be attracted to someone who is the opposite of everything he's ever told me that he finds attractive in a woman: a focus/motivation, independence, career goals, a mind of their own. Anyone who has seen OW in person or in a photo, says that they can't see what the attraction is in her.*
Worst case scenario, life situations, deploying, and career pressures give them an artificial sense of bonding, b/c it's "them against the world" while the evil forces keep them apart. *this makes sense... but I don't like it.*
All you can do is not be part of THAT. And show who you have become.
*I believe that I continue to do this, yet he has become more irritable and annoyed with me lately (the last few weeks). He seems to find something to criticize everyday, some that are really silly! I would have hoped that it would have caused a softening in him instead.*

There WILL be a crack in their veneers as time passes and they spend some time together. *They can't have an attempt at a 'real' R until he comes back, so until then, I'm afraid that they will be living the "us against the world" perspective until he returns... that can only serve to make them more determined to stay together, GRRRRR!*
All will NOT be perfect.She'll see that OMG "HE has flaws too... & I thought I'd fixed all my problems by ending my first m...oops"
and you are the mother of his children. When he sees you raising YOUR/HIS children and working and yet being Mother Frickin' Teresa Purg and
a woman only a fool would leave...who is moving forward in her life...
*this is my goal while he's deployed... I'm not quite sure how to *do* this*
LET him get to deal with the mess of his potential step children looking at him, and knowing...and looking at their mother...and knowing...and being teenagers AND him missing his kids as they get older, oh yes -there WILL be cracks/crevasses.[/color] *I have no clue how her kids will react to this, or what they are currently thinking. I mean, my H has always been a person in their lives, so in that sense, nothing has changed. But I have no idea what they will think when they see them hold hands or kiss... will they even notice?? Will they be happy for their mom? And at the same time, how can a mom want to set that example for 3 daughters?! "See girls, it's ok that [purg] isn't in your life anymore b/c uncle[C] is still here and guess what?! He gets to be your new daddy!" Will they be confused??*
If you can, try to think about the need to give him time to work through his mess. It is 5 months - but that's not long in the scheme of things.
*You're right. In the almost 10 years that we've been together, 5 months in a drop in the bucket. He's admitted that he's proud of the changes that he's seen, "but its not enough". I've also seen him almost cry when we're talking and then he forces himself to get angry and turn something around on me. We've almost switched sides in our communication style- I have a greater appreciation for what he felt like during our talks.*

5 months is NOT long but sure, I wish there was a faster way, or that you could push "fast forward"...

even though you assume he'll fantasize about OW while gone, he will, at a minimum, also ache for the arms of his own children. She cannot provide that.
[color:#3333FF]*He will ache for his kids, but how can *I* provide that either? I'm not sure that the even associates me with the kids.... they are his kids and I just happen to be the woman who takes care of them*


And some say that "absence makes the heart grow fonder" and IT CAN...
but there's also "absence makes the heart go wander..." and he may even feel attracted to someone there and that will make him wonder if MAYBE this is about HIM and not being happy in his marriage *I almost hope that he becomes interested in someone over there... OW will learn what this feels like. I've told H that I could handle all of this better with a stranger OW; there's too much history with my exBFF and the betrayal I feel is an added level of pain that I have to deal with on top of knowing that my H doesn't want me*

and thinking that a divorce will fix all his problems. But erasing you from the family photo does not work, and it does not fix the problems. OMG if he could only see the pain he's creating for others AND himself...


I'm desperate for some movement in a positive direction from my H at the moment, just like you.

And when I don't see any, I decide I will have to settle for closure - i.e. being done with what I should recognise as a hopeless situation.

BUT... then I remember that DB says don't lose hope.

Be more patient than you thought you could ever be.

Give your S TIME to work through his turmoil.

And understand that what they say and do today may not be what they say and do tomorrow.

And while you are still working on your self and with him, you still have the opportunity, at every interaction, to change the dynamic between you.

It may take a year, not 5 months; it may take 2 years.

Keep this sort of time frame in mind and then think about how you want to proceed. Would it be worth it if you had to wait longer for things to get better?

We're here to help you endure the sad times and to share the suffering. We know how hard it is.
*It's sad and comforting to know that other people out there can relate to this strange dynamic of moving on with your life yet at the same time keeping the door open for the WAS*
Big hugs to you,
NLW


good stuff from NLW.


If Purg, the time comes when they marry and go off into the sunset -we'll be here for you. [color:#3333FF]*I think I might need to be committed if this ever happens!*


OR if you, Purg, decide that moving forward has brought you to a place where you can no longer look over your shoulder with hope that he's awakened...b/c you want real freedom all the way
or b/c you feel you are still in limbo (purgatory) and want out for real,
then we'll support you letting go and shutting the door AND locking it
as you find your way in the world or in a new R...
*Lately I feel that I'm at this exact crossroads: Move on or continue to stand. My H has become a real jerk lately with his actions (making the rings). Part of me can't believe that I would ever want to be with a guy who acts like that... but then I remember that this isn't *him*- this is him in crisis. The things I've heard him say sound like they are coming out of a teenager's mouth*

but that day isn't today...

*still not today.... probably not tomorrow*

(((( ))))[/color]
Posted By: BklynMom Re: The Space Between... - 04/20/12 11:23 PM
One thing you mentioned which really struck me is that you are no longer friends with mutual friends. Were those friends initially his friends?

Back to your post.

Look you are a beautiful woman and a great mother. Dont wallow in feeling sorry for yourself, "why is H going for her and not for me?" Its not about other womans looks or personality. I believe WA husbands in particular want to WANTED in a sexual way.

Your H is attracted to being WANTED. My H POW worships my H, even before anything was going on, she treated him like he was Gods gift. That is what he wants. That is what you didnt give him.

Your exbff seems to be so stereotypically an other woman type. I HATE HER. I HATE what she does to woman. She makes me very angry.

But you are not like you. You have values and you love and respect yourself. You need to emphasize that you are an independent woman. Take a class, get really into fitness, learn guitar, do things that you exBFF would never ever do because she is too busy being a man-pleaser.

if your H was into you for being strong willed and independent he will like that again in you. But you need to be it. You need to go out there and do something cool. This will require you to pay for more babysitting and incur other costs but you need to do it.

Have you gone to Alanon yet?

No more excuses!

He needs to find fault with you all the time cause he needs to justify his horrendous actions. Its like they are yelling "You left the the cap off the toothpaste and I cant take it anymore, its over!!" Its completely ridiculous. When your H sulks at you dont react just say "la di da" to yourself, "how silly is he." Sometimes I go to the bathroom for a minute and regroup.

This is the hardest thing in the world to go through. You are amazing for not losing you cool on him everyday and telling him to go f. off. That is what a normal person would do.

What would you do if 5 months ago your H was diagnosed with cancer and after a 5 months of chemo the scan showed that the tumors had spread? Would you give up?

Enjoy everyday with your perfect children. Spend money on yourself.

Love you:)
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: The Space Between... - 04/22/12 01:27 AM
love the toothpaste cap anger example Bklyn,

so Purg, can you try to have a sense of humor about it? It's obvious your h "needs" to find a problem with you Or he can't justify leaving the mother of his children. You under estimate the value of this...

Remember Keep goings' h wanted to measure crap like how much food his w ate vs how much the kids ate? I think he wanted to deduct HER costs so he didn't have to cover HER at all....so We suggested she deduct # of squares of TP she used too, and should never be able to use a wipe for HER hands, just the baby's butt...

I opened at The Laugh Factory in '06 and I dedicated my set to my "stbxh" b/c I thought for sure we were done. And I wanted to laugh about it.

(Although h won't ever see that tape and I won't post it on youtube, I can tell you that it went over well)

A sense of humor helps a lot of people channel their anger in a way that helps us get past some of the pain.

Besides, the craziness IS funny, dang it!
Posted By: purgatory Re: The Space Between... - 05/01/12 01:44 PM
I've been gone for a few days... Job hunting, adjusting back to being a SAHM, and generally dealing with being a single mom smirk

I've gotten to the place where I can not be emotionally stabbed by every action or words that H does... I find myself being angry just by being around him. I'm on my way to the place where I have no reaction to him at all.

You all have read my thoughts and feelings about his upcoming deployment and how it's going to effect my kids. Well, today- H told me that he wants to tell S6 this weekend about the D. He also said that he doesn't need my permission nor need me to be present for the talk, but I was welcomed to join. REALLY?! He also had the courtesy (*sarcastic*) to say that he wasn't trying to *force* me or back me into a corner- OMG!!! Really?! As if I'm going to step aside and let him say whatever he wants to- I'm not going to let him say "We've decided to D." NOPE! *WE* didn't decide anything.

I've suggested before, and did again, that we consult our C about the best way to approach our son... his response was that a stranger wouldn't be able to tell us what's best for our son. [this guy is really starting to p!ss me off!!]

I'm sick to my stomach over this. Not about the D (in fact I'm having neutral feelings about it lately- especially the more that he's a jerk to me), I'm sick over breaking my son's heart.

This is going to be a cr@ppy week.
Posted By: labug Re: The Space Between... - 05/01/12 01:55 PM
So sorry, Purg. He's really on a mission.

Even if he doesn't want to consult your C, it might be a good thing for you to do that. Talk through it to get your anger out in a safe place.

zig has been writing a lot about resistance in her thread, when we resist it just gives them more to push against.

Good luck and (((P)))
Posted By: BklynMom Re: The Space Between... - 05/02/12 07:49 PM
I think its really important that you dont resist right now. I know that what he is doing heartbreaking. Its terrible as a mother to watch him inflict this pain on his kids but I would let him do what he wants to do. Decide if you want to be there or not but try to stop him. Your resistance will be used against you. Your resistance will be misrepresented down the line. Its during these extremely trying times that its even more important to fake being Mother Theresa.

((()))
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