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Posted By: 2thepoint Finding my way through the fog - 03/10/12 06:28 AM
Time sure does fly when you are having fun. Time for a new thread. Below is the link to my last thread. Links to previous threads can be found there as well.

9 - Picking Weeds and Planting Seeds

========================

Tonight I find myself preparing to move back to the bachelor pad tomorrow. As I mentioned the other day, W has stated that she needs to get back into the swing of things in terms of managing the house and the kids and everything else.... on her own.

I have to admit that it stings.... a lot!

My brother in law called me tonight (not W's brother, but her sister's H) to see how things were going with W and with me. I'm comforted by the fact that a member of her side of the family cares enough to check in on me from time to time. So anyway, I gave him the update on my W's health, on the kids, our sitch, etc. He is just baffled by it all. Of course there is one missing piece of the puzzle that he nor anyone else is aware of and that is the long distance EA/A that my W is involved in.

If he knew that important piece, things would make perfect sense to him and everyone else. I've been very good about not disclosing this critical piece of information. I've likely suffered harm to my reputation as a result of what people deduce is the root of our M problems. But I continue to keep my mouth shut in the hopes that one day we can piece our M back together.

Speaking of W's health, she appears to be doing remarkably well. Her heart rate is back to normal with the aid of some medication. Her stamina is greatly improved with the only problem being that she still gets tired, but we believe that to be a function of the medication she is taking. Her mood over the past few days has been fantastic, better even than before she got sick when I thought she was really suffering emotionally.

I'd like to think that the care and support that I have provided her over the past month has helped her heal both physically and emotionally. It's just a damn shame that she has no room in her heart for me.

I find it truly amazing that a near death experience, prolonged hospitalization and lengthy recovery has not been enough of a shock to wake her from her fog. I mean it just boggles the mind! Case in point: W has been on calls with OM for most of the day today. It is around midnight and I can hear her on the phone even as I type this. It's just crazy! crazy

======================

Enough about my W, what about me? Well for starters, I leave for Spain a week from today. I'm pretty stoked to be going to Europe for the first time and I'm looking forward to meeting up with my good friends in Madrid after they finish their tour of Italy.

Another big event that is in the process of unfolding is that I have been involved in a series of promising job interviews. 2 weeks ago I had a screening interviewing followed by a request to provide a written response to two additional screening interview questions.

This past Monday I participated in a one hour panel interview with the hiring manager, two potential peers and the HR business partner. Today, I received word that they would like me to participate in a second round of interviews which consist of 3 separate 1 hour telephone interviews over 3 days next week.

The panel interview went exceptionally well and I am feeling pretty confident. Of course I have no idea who my competition is and I still have to get through these next interviews before I'll know were things will go next. But, I am really excited by the prospect of possibly having a new job lined up and waiting for my return from Spain.

If that all comes together, then I think I can honestly say that I am slowly finding my way through the fog. I just wish I could say the same about my W.

Time marches on I suppose.
Posted By: CallieIsSpooky Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/10/12 06:56 AM
Hi, I'm new here. I just wanted to say your story and your attitude are inspiring. I wish you luck in your marriage situation and your job interviews. Thank you for sharing!
Posted By: labug Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/10/12 01:38 PM
Quote:
Case in point: W has been on calls with OM for most of the day today. It is around midnight and I can hear her on the phone even as I type this. It's just crazy


I'm sorry, that must be so painful. (((2)))

That interview process is brutal! Sheesh! However, it must help take your mind off the sitch and keep it fully on you.
Posted By: purgatory Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/10/12 01:54 PM
Sounds like you have some good things on the horizon! Spain is going to be awesome- you really deserve some time to yourself to relax smile

It baffles me as well that her brush with death and your unconditional support wasn't enough to clear the dense fog that seems to be surrounding her.

Time to get out the fog lamps so you can navigate your way through it, you don't want to end up getting lost in the fog with her.
Posted By: Accuray Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/10/12 01:55 PM
Grrrrr! You're a good man T2P, taking care of W while she persists in pursuing OM is a huge act of selfless kindness.

This fantasy our spouses hang onto about OP is so frustrating and maddening.

Your Spain trip will be great and I'm sure you'll get the job. You've had a lot of "character building" lately and I'm sure that shines through.

Accuray
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/10/12 07:04 PM
Yesterday evening I went to a yoga class at the invitation of a female friend of mine. It was awful! Dirty, smelly floors, strange intonations by the instructor, weird music (if you want to call it that) and the AC was blasting freezing us all!

Still glad I went though. Got some good exposure to some pretty extreme yoga poses only to discover later that because there were several beginners in the class, the instructor was taking it easy on us, (sure could've fooled me!). laugh

So today I was telling my W and S10 about the class. I like to tell stories in self depricating ways including demonstrations of poses, etc. just to make it funny. I could tell W wasn't into it so I stopped, but she and S10 asked me to finish.

Then W asks me where I went because by my description it didn't sound like our home gym, which it wasn't. She then asks me who I went with. So I told her it was a friend of my roommates GF, which is true. I immediately noticed W's radar engage. She starts asking me if this "friend" was able to do the yoga poses. I said yes she was prety good and I'm clearly the novice. Not wanting to discuss further, I walked out of the room.

Now I'm starting to feel guilt about spending time with a female friend that my W doesn't know. I know it shouldn't bother me, it was all perfectly innocent, but it does.

Sigh!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/10/12 07:21 PM
T2 - like all liquid metal cyborgs, after each form of destruction you keep reforming back into a better T2.

You might as well get used to the double standard. It's a standard requirement for all MLC's to be as obnoxious as possible in that category. And she will absolutely use it to justify her A with the horned creep from 900 miles away.

We all see this in our aitches. Think of each one of our DB buddies here, maler and female...each one of us has this same story.

T2 - we all do that...let guilt consume us, let their crazed new standard control our responses until we say "f" it, that's enough. You are in no way an immoral or weak character for having a female friend after your W kicked you out of your M, and took on the OM.
Posted By: labug Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/10/12 07:30 PM
Misplaced, wasted emotion in this situation.
Posted By: ces67 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/10/12 07:32 PM
2 - I'm telling ya, all you guys out there doing yoga. I'm going to have to get on the band-wagon.

Stay upbeat as you move out. I wish something would jolt your W into the reality of what she's giving up. I'll keep praying it happens for you.

Try not to obsess on how your W might view your friend. If you're not comfortable with the idea of having a lady friend then back off, but do it for you. Let go of the mind-reading and let your W deal with her own feelings.

Spain is sounding mighty good! Enjoy and best of luck with the job offer too.

My interview process for the job I had now consisted of 2 phone interviews then a site visit. They flew me in and I spent from 8:30am to after 6pm interviewing with about 10 to 12 people. Some 1 on 1, some in pairs and then a panel with the team I ultimately managed. It was a looooong day but it paid off.

Enjoy your weekend and try and stay focused on where 2 is heading and not what W is stalling.
Posted By: nhmom Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/10/12 09:28 PM
2TP,

I hope deep down your W appreciates your help and support in her recovery. It must not have been easy to go through the scare of losing her, stepping in and showing her what unconditional love really means. I'm sorry that it didn't get her to open her eyes and appreciate what she has and what she's willing to give up. I commend you for giving support while being able to hear her talking to OM. You kept your compose and that's awesome! It's hard to keep these feelings inside (at least it is for me, and I would not have been able to keep my mouth shut - so you're way ahead of me there!)

While your W was recovering, she got used to you always being around to help. Let her miss you and miss all that you were doing.

I'm excited about your trip to Spain. I've never been, but it's on my list. My Spanish friend always brings us a bottle of Rioja and some Spanish olive oil (the Spaniards sure are proud people). You're going to have a great time.

Your interview process sounds painful, though I think CES got you beat on that smile

Sorry you had a weird first experience with yoga. Don't feel guilty for spending time with another female. One, she's a friend and you're not pursuing her, and two, it sure got your W's attention. Let her wonder what you're up to. It shows that she still cares, even if she's still deeply trapped with OM. You're not out of the picture yet.

You're doing great and you have some exciting things happening!
Posted By: antlers Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/10/12 10:39 PM
I don't remember where I first saw this...it's been within the last 4 days. It resonated with me, and I thought it was appropriate to share.
You've been strong so far 2tp...in painful circumstances. I hope you'll continue.

When people took Darwin's theory's and used "survival of the fittest" to justify their domination and impoverishment of others, Darwin's reply was very interesting, in essence he said the fittest is not the most aggressive or strongest but the fittest were those species that are MOST ABLE TO ADAPT TO CHANGE.
Posted By: Valeska19 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/10/12 10:55 PM
2,
I'm sorry to hear about w asking you to leave. As much as we can prepare ourselves to have no expectations.. It's alot harder to put away our hope.

Take this last month and learn from it. Use the knowledge to plan your next steps.

Do you know what they are?
Posted By: rickb89 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/10/12 11:12 PM
Originally Posted By: ces67
2 - I'm telling ya, all you guys out there doing yoga. I'm going to have to get on the band-wagon.

Stay upbeat as you move out. I wish something would jolt your W into the reality of what she's giving up. I'll keep praying it happens for you.

Try not to obsess on how your W might view your friend. If you're not comfortable with the idea of having a lady friend then back off, but do it for you. Let go of the mind-reading and let your W deal with her own feelings.

Spain is sounding mighty good! Enjoy and best of luck with the job offer too.

My interview process for the job I had now consisted of 2 phone interviews then a site visit. They flew me in and I spent from 8:30am to after 6pm interviewing with about 10 to 12 people. Some 1 on 1, some in pairs and then a panel with the team I ultimately managed. It was a looooong day but it paid off.

Enjoy your weekend and try and stay focused on where 2 is heading and not what W is stalling.


CES - if you join the yoga world you won't regret it. All of us are really starting to lead parallel lives....LBS's, making our lives better, yoga, guitar....what's next?
Posted By: ces67 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/10/12 11:13 PM
I think my mountain bike needs a tune up....
Posted By: antlers Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/10/12 11:17 PM
Some of these gals I ride with do what they call 'hot yoga'. They say it's doing yoga in a room where they have the temperature set at about 105 degrees.
Sounds about as fun to me as getting my testicles slammed in s pickup door.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/11/12 02:07 AM
Antlers - it's Bikram Yoga. I do that too. It's very challenging but you do feel great. Not sure how it compares to the nad slamming though.
Posted By: bustorama Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/11/12 05:37 AM
2tp,

You've backslid some.

You allowed yourself to become attached again -- not only in terms of your hope for the R, but also in being concerned about your W's reactions (and measuring your behavior in terms of eliciting or not eliciting a certain reaction in your W).

Another example of your reattaching is your concern about her speculated breast reduction. Your only legitimate concerns here are how it affects your wallet and how it might affect your kids. It is her body and since you are not living as a married couple, it's not your place to say anything about it other than on the financial side (and there wouldn't be an issue here if your finances were separated) or how the surgery may impact your shared child care situation.

Again, it's paradoxical, but the less attached you are to her life and decisions, the faster your situation will resolve one way or the other. The more attached and involved you are, the more the limbo and cake eating will continue (because you are allowing it to and tacitly validating it).

Remember, your W kicked you out of the house. She did not invite you back to the house to reconcile with you. She allowed you in for caregiving (borderline cake eating) that you "volunteered." And you didn't volunteer it selflessly and without expectation. You did it in part hoping that it would clear her fog. That your "unconditional" love would bring about a change in her. It's a form of controlling behavior.

While it was the right thing to take care of her and the kids in the greatest time of need, there reached a point at some time after you were in HER house (notice that you started calling it home in your messages? reality -- to her, it's NOT your home anymore) where your caregiving became more about YOUR needs (to be with her, to hope it would lead to a change in mind in her) than about whether she REALLY needed you in a medical way. If there was an issue re: her ability to care for the kids, you could as easily have taken the kids to your place and brought them to school from there, and she could have gotten all the rest she needed.

When the W is WAS and fogged out in an A, they will NOT get de-fogged if you play plan doormat and let them lead about how long you "can" stay in the guest bedroom ("I hope she lets me stay another week in the corner of the house to tend to her needs"). That is emasculating and not attractive. There is no mojo in being obsequious and saying, "I will stay here and cater to you until the day that you want me to leave. I don't want to stay a day longer than bothers you."

Come on, man. You think your W will find that viscerally HOT or STRONG? Where is your value in that? Yeah, when she medically needs you, you take care of her and do a bang up job at it. But, then, when is well enough, YOU decide early it's time for you to go and get on with your life (because she never indicated she wanted you to be part of hers again). If you reconcile, SHE will need to pull you back. She will need to convince you that she will work for you and the R, as much as you have done for her. It's hard for her to pull you back if you are pushing yourself into her home saying I will stay here until you ask me to leave.

Why do you feel bad about going to yoga with a female friend? It's reality to your W. Part of dumping your H is that he may have some REALLY hot yoga. Namaste.

Part of YOU accepting the current reality is that you should make your life choices based on what is best for 2tp (or kids) and NOT about what W will think. Even if you were living as a married couple, I don't see what is wrong with going to yoga with a female friend. But, since you are NOT living as a married couple, I cannot fathom what is objectionable about going to yoga with a friend. If she has a problem with it, she can make the connection that she chose that reality.
Posted By: bustorama Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/11/12 05:39 AM
Mmmm...yoga girl

Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/11/12 06:04 AM
I hope deep down your W appreciates your help and support in her recovery. It must not have been easy to go through the scare of losing her, stepping in and showing her what unconditional love really means. I'm sorry that it didn't get her to open her eyes and appreciate what she has and what she's willing to give up. I commend you for giving support while being able to hear her talking to OM. You kept your compose and that's awesome! It's hard to keep these feelings inside (at least it is for me, and I would not have been able to keep my mouth shut - so you're way ahead of me there!)

Put's things in perspective. Feel awkward complaining about my simple sithc. 2pac, you are a machine my friend! Keep up the grown up thing...
Posted By: bustorama Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/11/12 06:11 AM
Originally Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky
I commend you for giving support while being able to hear her talking to OM.


Why is this commendable? He subjected himself to this. We shouldn't subject ourselves to situations that cross our boundaries, because it often leads to feelings of resentment, hurt or worthlessness. Those emotions are telling us something is crossing our boundaries (often ourselves).

I agree re: the care in the hospital and the EARLY days home, but the caretaking beyond that point was less about GIVING and more about trying to control her feelings (imo). 2tp said as much in saying he was disappointed.
Posted By: WenikiTiki Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/11/12 06:27 AM
I will say that my H does't talk to OW in our house. He talks to her by phone when he is driving to and from work. Guess I should be glad of that.

He does this despite proclaiming strongly and often that we are separated.

I like what Bustorama said. Rick too. After guitars comes tamborines and we will all live in a yellow submarine!

Aloha! Enjoy Spain!
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/11/12 12:33 PM
Originally Posted By: bustorama
Mmmm...yoga girl


Those were some HOT yoga momma's, Busto!!

"Hey Yoga, I sure would looovve to get to know ya, I’ve got a couple 2nd level poses I could show ya" laugh cool laugh
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/11/12 01:03 PM
Originally Posted By: bustorama
2tp,

You've backslid some.

You allowed yourself to become attached again -- not only in terms of your hope for the R, but also in being concerned about your W's reactions (and measuring your behavior in terms of eliciting or not eliciting a certain reaction in your W).


I suppose you are right, but I don't see how it was possible to do otherwise. I mean I spent an entire month back at the house half of which was with her in the hospital. It is hard to not get reattached again.

Originally Posted By: bustorama
Another example of your reattaching is your concern about her speculated breast reduction. Your only legitimate concerns here are how it affects your wallet and how it might affect your kids. It is her body and since you are not living as a married couple, it's not your place to say anything about it other than on the financial side (and there wouldn't be an issue here if your finances were separated) or how the surgery may impact your shared child care situation.


Well, fortunately I never said a word about the BR to my W other than to ask a few clarifying questions. Any issues or concerns I had I brought here to the boards. This should be a safe place to vent, right?

Originally Posted By: bustorama
Again, it's paradoxical, but the less attached you are to her life and decisions, the faster your situation will resolve one way or the other. The more attached and involved you are, the more the limbo and cake eating will continue (because you are allowing it to and tacitly validating it).


I hadn't looked at it this way and I suppose you are right. But now that I think about it, I don't want to necessarily accelerate the issue. I mean, if prolonging things allows time for any changes I want to make to set and allows time for my W to see those changes, isn't that a good thing?

Originally Posted By: bustorama
Remember, your W kicked you out of the house. She did not invite you back to the house to reconcile with you. She allowed you in for caregiving (borderline cake eating) that you "volunteered." And you didn't volunteer it selflessly and without expectation. You did it in part hoping that it would clear her fog. That your "unconditional" love would bring about a change in her. It's a form of controlling behavior.


Can't argue with this ^^^. Although, I don't really view it as controlling, but I'll accept your point in good faith.

Originally Posted By: bustorama
While it was the right thing to take care of her and the kids in the greatest time of need, there reached a point at some time after you were in HER house (notice that you started calling it home in your messages? reality -- to her, it's NOT your home anymore) where your caregiving became more about YOUR needs (to be with her, to hope it would lead to a change in mind in her) than about whether she REALLY needed you in a medical way. If there was an issue re: her ability to care for the kids, you could as easily have taken the kids to your place and brought them to school from there, and she could have gotten all the rest she needed.


I think I maybe stayed 1 week too long. and I should have exited before she said she was ready for me to leave. That would have been a better way to play that hand.

Originally Posted By: bustorama
When the W is WAS and fogged out in an A, they will NOT get de-fogged if you play plan doormat and let them lead about how long you "can" stay in the guest bedroom ("I hope she lets me stay another week in the corner of the house to tend to her needs"). That is emasculating and not attractive. There is no mojo in being obsequious and saying, "I will stay here and cater to you until the day that you want me to leave. I don't want to stay a day longer than bothers you."


This ^^^ is not a very attractive picture you portray here. I have to say though that I'm not sure how I would have handled things differently considering the circumstances. Perhaps I could have said nothing and just gone about my business and when I felt like she was recovered enough, made my exit. Is this what you are saying, Busto?

Originally Posted By: bustorama
Come on, man. You think your W will find that viscerally HOT or STRONG?


Well, maybe if I demonstrated a HOT yoga pose?!?! laugh

Originally Posted By: bustorama
Where is your value in that? Yeah, when she medically needs you, you take care of her and do a bang up job at it. But, then, when is well enough, YOU decide early it's time for you to go and get on with your life (because she never indicated she wanted you to be part of hers again). If you reconcile, SHE will need to pull you back. She will need to convince you that she will work for you and the R, as much as you have done for her. It's hard for her to pull you back if you are pushing yourself into her home saying I will stay here until you ask me to leave.


Good points ^^^.

Originally Posted By: bustorama
Why do you feel bad about going to yoga with a female friend? It's reality to your W. Part of dumping your H is that he may have some REALLY hot yoga. Namaste.

Part of YOU accepting the current reality is that you should make your life choices based on what is best for 2tp (or kids) and NOT about what W will think. Even if you were living as a married couple, I don't see what is wrong with going to yoga with a female friend. But, since you are NOT living as a married couple, I cannot fathom what is objectionable about going to yoga with a friend. If she has a problem with it, she can make the connection that she chose that reality.


I don't know Busto, I guess I still feel a sense of commitment to my W and M. I know this is not based on rational thought or even reality, but it is how I feel. Hell, I still wear my damn wedding ring. What do you suppose that says about me and my hopes and desires?

Anyway, thanks for the thought provoking post. I'm now back at the bachelor pad and can begin anew my efforts to bust this divorce!
Posted By: bustorama Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/11/12 05:20 PM
Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
I suppose you are right, but I don't see how it was possible to do otherwise....It is hard to not get reattached again.


It is especially hard when you are in the moment/sitch.

Originally Posted By: bustorama
Another example of your reattaching is your concern about her speculated breast reduction.


Originally Posted By: 2thepointWell, fortunately I never said a word about the BR to my W other than to ask a few clarifying questions. Any issues or concerns I had I brought here to the boards. This should be a safe place to vent, right?[/quote


Yes, it is always safe here.

It's not just about what you say to whom, though. It's really about where you are emotionally. If you were detached, you not only would not say anything about it to her, but you also would not feel as much of a need to vent about it here on the boards. The attachment not only makes day-to-day life harder and more painful, it also can hinder your ability to live your separate life to the fullest (because you keep looking over your shoulder wondering what she would think of your doing YYYY, or wondering what on earth she is thinking to do XXX, etc.).

It may be scary for you to think about, but if you were a little more detached from her and the outcome, you would be coming from a stronger place, and life would be more fulfilling.

Originally Posted By: bustorama
Again, it's paradoxical, but the less attached you are to her life and decisions, the faster your situation will resolve one way or the other. The more attached and involved you are, the more the limbo and cake eating will continue (because you are allowing it to and tacitly validating it).


Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
I hadn't looked at it this way and I suppose you are right. But now that I think about it, I don't want to necessarily accelerate the issue. I mean, if prolonging things allows time for any changes I want to make to set and allows time for my W to see those changes, isn't that a good thing?


Detaching is not the same as filing for divorce nor is it even the same as LRT/no contact. It is simply your state of mind in relation to her feelings and actions. You could be physically living with your W and still be fully detached from her (and not mean, uncaring or ignoring). She could be witness to all of your changes while you are detached from her. It's really important that you get what it means to be detached.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/14712-developing-detachment/

The idea of planting seeds "in order for your W to see changes" is also a form of control. Let your W be and love who she wants to. Change yourself because it's the right way to be, NOT in order to win her back.

Think of her relationship to OM/A as an addiction, and the below may make more sense to you? Here are some particularly relevant concepts relevant:

Fourth: Admit to yourself that there is only one person you can change and that is yourself and that for your serenity you need to let go of the "need" to fix, change, or rescue...other persons, places and things.

Fifth: Recognize that it is "sick" and "unhealthy" to believe that you have the power or control enough to fix, correct, change, heal or rescue another person, place or thing if they do not...see a need to change.

Seventh: Continue to own your feelings as your responsibility and not blame others for the way you feel.

Eighth: Accept personal responsibility for your own unhealthy actions, feelings and thinking and cease looking for the persons, places or things you can blame for your unhealthiness.

Tenth: Accept that...people...in your current life are "irrational,"...influences in your life, label them honestly for what they truly are, and stop minimizing their negative impact in your life.

Eleventh: Reduce the impact of guilt...which impede your ability to develop detachment in your life.

Twelfth: Practice "letting go" of the need to correct, fix or [change] the persons...in life over which you have no control or power to change.

Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
Although, I don't really view it as controlling, but I'll accept your point in good faith.


If you do something IN ORDER TO influence someone else's feelings about you or with some EXPECTATION of the effect it might have on someone else's feelings or behavior, then it is controlling behavior. You are trying to control them (or their feelings) via your behavior. If you do it simply because you love/care for them and with no expectation/hope/contingency, then it really is giving/unconditional behavior.

Originally Posted By: bustorama
When the W is WAS and fogged out in an A, they will NOT get de-fogged if you play plan doormat and let them lead about how long you "can" stay in the guest bedroom ("I hope she lets me stay another week in the corner of the house to tend to her needs"). That is emasculating and not attractive. There is no mojo in being obsequious and saying, "I will stay here and cater to you until the day that you want me to leave. I don't want to stay a day longer than bothers you."


Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
This ^^^ is not a very attractive picture you portray here. I have to say though that I'm not sure how I would have handled things differently considering the circumstances. Perhaps I could have said nothing and just gone about my business and when I felt like she was recovered enough, made my exit.


Active, declarative statements.

"W, I know you've been through hell and back. I'm here to help. I am going to stay in the guest bedroom until you are well enough to take care of yourself. When I go back to my place, I also can take the kids with me for a few nights, if you need, so that you can have more time to get strong on your own. In the meantime, let me know what I can help with. What sounds good for dinner, W?"

Then when you thought she seemed close to well enough

"OK, W. You seem to be getting better and better. I am thinking of going back to my place tomorrow (or 2 days from now). How about we take the rest of today (and tomorrow) as a transition/dress rehearsal to see how you can manage on your own, but with me still here to help?"

If she still wants you there then, she will ASK YOU. Psychologically, it is coming from a very different place if she asks you to stay vs. accedes for you to stay (or worse asks you to leave).

Originally Posted By: bustorama
Come on, man. You think your W will find that viscerally HOT or STRONG?


Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
Well, maybe if I demonstrated a HOT yoga pose?!?! laugh


Unblock your chakra, man!

Originally Posted By: bustorama
But, since you are NOT living as a married couple, I cannot fathom what is objectionable about going to yoga with a friend.


Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
I don't know Busto, I guess I still feel a sense of commitment to my W and M. I know this is not based on rational thought or even reality, but it is how I feel. Hell, I still wear my damn wedding ring. What do you suppose that says about me and my hopes and desires?


Would you not go to yoga with a female friend if you and W were happily married? Or is there some chemistry with this female friend? Some hot chaturanga running through your mind?

The wedding ring is a very personal thing. I took mine off a few months in, then put it back on, then took mine off again. In the end, my W put hers back on again before I did. All kinds of reasons to wear or not wear it. I took mine off for the extended time when I decided that there was no point in wearing it anymore -- who was I married to if there was no one else symbolically wearing theirs in return? I totally get where you are coming from in wearing it, though.

Two things I CAN tell you, if you are wearing it because you are concerned that your taking it off would have a NEGATIVE effect on her, 1) you are not detached from her AND 2) the concern is misplaced.




Anyway, thanks for the thought provoking post. I'm now back at the bachelor pad and can begin anew my efforts to bust this divorce!
Posted By: bustorama Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/11/12 05:20 PM
Crap I butchered that response, please be sure to read in the embedded box
Posted By: rickb89 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/11/12 05:50 PM
2Pac - you're a great friend so please understand when I say that some of the hardest toughest posts to read are the ones we need the most. Think about how 25 and then Mach used to wave away all our BS and say here's the truth if you're man enough to look at it.

Frankly, everyone on this board and probably everyone you know knows what a great heart and soul you have. That's not in question. I think Busto's comments should be given serious consideration. We do blind oursleves out of desperation and we need a NEO every now and then to show us THe Matrix is real.

I so want you to have the love you deserve and that can't help but come given time.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/11/12 06:17 PM
In your wife's case it's hey yoga squirrel
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/11/12 10:08 PM
Busto is coming hard and I agree w/ Rick that Busto's comments are worthy of some deep thought. I am using them for my own sitch.


6 Days till Spain 2Pacalyse, I'm so excited for you!!
Posted By: ptcr Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/12/12 02:20 AM
2thepoint - I feel your pain, my friend. So, saw my H for first time in 6 weeks...sooo stinkin' hard. Love him. Attracted to him. Want him home. He fixed stuff at house on Thursday (I made myself scarce), saw him Friday at S16's hockey game, he came by house on Sat to talk to S16 about cellphone stuff implicating dangerous behavior so we could be "united front" and fixed internet while he was here which dropped off loft computer.

So...yeah! I am FEELING RE-ATTACHED because for teh first time since August he is showing us some attention.

So, I sit here after FULL day of volunteering, church, lunch with friends, long talk with brother in Germany about upcoming trip, wondering what the heck is going on. Yep, pulled back into the MLC vortex. Sad and weeping. HAven't been that way for a few weeks. I feel your pain, my friend. I reread the advice of wise DB'ers to you and try to apply them to my situation. Heaven help us all.
Posted By: BFloat Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/12/12 04:03 AM
How many more days until Spain? Getting excited for you!
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/13/12 04:06 AM
Quote:
It's not just about what you say to whom, though. It's really about where you are emotionally. If you were detached, you not only would not say anything about it to her, but you also would not feel as much of a need to vent about it here on the boards. The attachment not only makes day-to-day life harder and more painful, it also can hinder your ability to live your separate life to the fullest (because you keep looking over your shoulder wondering what she would think of your doing YYYY, or wondering what on earth she is thinking to do XXX, etc.).

It may be scary for you to think about, but if you were a little more detached from her and the outcome, you would be coming from a stronger place, and life would be more fulfilling.


OK, the looking over my shoulder is definitely something I am guilty of. I know what you are saying about being detached. You have been trying to drive that point home for months now. At times I feel like I am detached but then events have a way of proving me wrong. So, clearly I need to detach more.

Quote:
Detaching is not the same as filing for divorce nor is it even the same as LRT/no contact. It is simply your state of mind in relation to her feelings and actions. You could be physically living with your W and still be fully detached from her (and not mean, uncaring or ignoring). She could be witness to all of your changes while you are detached from her. It's really important that you get what it means to be detached.


I really thought I was there, especially before my W’s medical crisis drew me back into her orbit.

Quote:
The idea of planting seeds "in order for your W to see changes" is also a form of control. Let your W be and love who she wants to. Change yourself because it's the right way to be, NOT in order to win her back.


What I was referring to in “planting seeds” was that while I was caring for my W during her illness, I had an opportunity to demonstrate my loving, caring nature; something that was always there but had been dormant for some time. Acts of service that fill her tank were provided whenever appropriate and my hope is that she will see that I am capable of being that loving caring person. I just felt that she needed to see that I am capable. Guess what you are saying is that it was more a negative “control” action on my part. Ugh!

Quote:
Think of her relationship to OM/A as an addiction, and the below may make more sense to you? Here are some particularly relevant concepts relevant:

Fourth: Admit to yourself that there is only one person you can change and that is yourself and that for your serenity you need to let go of the "need" to fix, change, or rescue...other persons, places and things.

Fifth: Recognize that it is "sick" and "unhealthy" to believe that you have the power or control enough to fix, correct, change, heal or rescue another person, place or thing if they do not...see a need to change.

Seventh: Continue to own your feelings as your responsibility and not blame others for the way you feel.

Eighth: Accept personal responsibility for your own unhealthy actions, feelings and thinking and cease looking for the persons, places or things you can blame for your unhealthiness.

Tenth: Accept that...people...in your current life are "irrational,"...influences in your life, label them honestly for what they truly are, and stop minimizing their negative impact in your life.

Eleventh: Reduce the impact of guilt...which impede your ability to develop detachment in your life.

Twelfth: Practice "letting go" of the need to correct, fix or [change] the persons...in life over which you have no control or power to change.


Thanks for sharing the tips/concepts. Certainly something to think about.

Quote:
If you do something IN ORDER TO influence someone else's feelings about you or with some EXPECTATION of the effect it might have on someone else's feelings or behavior, then it is controlling behavior. You are trying to control them (or their feelings) via your behavior. If you do it simply because you love/care for them and with no expectation/hope/contingency, then it really is giving/unconditional behavior.

I did the acts of service as a loving and caring gesture…. Again, I didn’t consider it as controlling. But to be honest and as I stated above, it was also to demonstrate my ability and capacity to act in a loving way towards my W. And yes I had hoped she noticed. My bad!!

Quote:
Active, declarative statements.

"W, I know you've been through hell and back. I'm here to help. I am going to stay in the guest bedroom until you are well enough to take care of yourself. When I go back to my place, I also can take the kids with me for a few nights, if you need, so that you can have more time to get strong on your own. In the meantime, let me know what I can help with. What sounds good for dinner, W?"

Then when you thought she seemed close to well enough

"OK, W. You seem to be getting better and better. I am thinking of going back to my place tomorrow (or 2 days from now). How about we take the rest of today (and tomorrow) as a transition/dress rehearsal to see how you can manage on your own, but with me still here to help?"

If she still wants you there then, she will ASK YOU. Psychologically, it is coming from a very different place if she asks you to stay vs. accedes for you to stay (or worse asks you to leave).


Damage already done, I suppose. Next time……

Quote:
Would you not go to yoga with a female friend if you and W were happily married? Or is there some chemistry with this female friend? Some hot chaturanga running through your mind?


I would not be going to yoga with a female friend that my W did not know if I were happily married. I would hope my W would go with me instead. Of course that is not her thing, so I guess I’d be going alone. But I would prefer the studio in your “yoga girl” video! laugh

Quote:
The wedding ring is a very personal thing. I took mine off a few months in, then put it back on, then took mine off again. In the end, my W put hers back on again before I did. All kinds of reasons to wear or not wear it. I took mine off for the extended time when I decided that there was no point in wearing it anymore -- who was I married to if there was no one else symbolically wearing theirs in return? I totally get where you are coming from in wearing it, though.

Two things I CAN tell you, if you are wearing it because you are concerned that your taking it off would have a NEGATIVE effect on her, 1) you are not detached from her AND 2) the concern is misplaced.


I am wearing my ring more as a symbol that I have not given up on my M or my commitment. I hadn’t really considered my W’s reaction if I were to stop wearing the ring. I’m not really sure what her reaction would be, although I’m pretty sure she’d notice it almost immediately.

Again, Thanks Busto for the post. Gives me lots to consider.
Posted By: Truegritter Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/13/12 08:31 AM
Originally Posted By: 2
Acts of service that fill her tank were provided whenever appropriate and my hope is that she will see that I am capable of being that loving caring person. I just felt that she needed to see that I am capable.


I think Busto made the point very well and that you are hearing it.

...just making sure you also see it.
Posted By: bustorama Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/13/12 06:00 PM
Re: acts of service and giving, this really is a big opportunity for you, 2thepoint. I went through and continue to go through the same process.

Many of us grow up with the implicit idea of doing nice things for others because it elicits a positive response for ourselves (praise from others about being "selfless," nice behavior or loving actions in return that helps us feel connected or relieves anxiety about not feeling connected). A good clue that we are doing the behaviors for those reasons (rather than out of true giving/unconditional selflessness) is when we develop feelings of disappointment, sadness, anxiety or resentment if the "desired" outcome is not attained.

If we truly were giving, the desired outcome would simply be that we gave.

Because we care so much about our R's/M's (and ourselves in terms of the emotional security that we derive from them), we can engage in all kinds of ostensibly "giving" behavior IN ORDER TO...(show them that we can be giving, show them that we can be loving, etc. etc.). The irony is that we aren't really giving then, it's truly about ourselves and our needs.

And there are two big relationship problems that can develop if we "give" in these co-dependent ways. One is the person that we are trying to subconsciously influence/elicit a reaction from may not like being controlled (if they perceive it that way). The other is that we can become sad/resentful/withdrawn/angry that we didn't subconsciously get the tit that we were hoping to get for our tat. And that negative emotion may further hamper the R dynamic.

A solution is to really work on giving unconditionally and without expectation -- this is a process of being truly honest with yourself re: WHY you are doing the behavior (is it to show her something, or with hopes that it will change something in her? or is it simply to give to her?). Acts of service ARE very important in relationships; you just need to get to the point when they are motivated as JUST acts of service FOR your partner and not acts of service (partly) FOR 2pac.

A second solution (for when you are in an R) is to ask or openly talk about whatever it is that you might otherwise be trying to achieve covertly through your behavior.

And a third solution is to assess or work on whatever feelings in you are motivating the behavior. In your case, it might be the great fear that your W may not notice your changes or, at its base, that she will not come back to you and be lost to you. It is hard not to act on such strong feelings. But, it is possible to by cognitive methods and detachment.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/13/12 09:10 PM
Busto, thanks for the post. I need to think about it and will reply later. In the meantime could use some advice from anyone willing to provide it regarding an interaction that occurred earlier today.

First some background:

W's first Dr. appointment since being released from the hospital was today at 12pm. I had planned to go with her. Yesterday we had a text exchange that reads as follows:

W - U can't come 2morrow cuz Grady (S10's friend) will be here and S13 needs to be at paintball at 11.

Me - Yes, I just realized that. Crap! Can you conference me in? smile

W - No but I'll take notes. What time is your interview?

Me - 2pm. Don't worry I'll hang at the house with the boys and take my interview from there. What time is Grady coming over?

W - 8

So this ^^^ is the information I had to work from. I deduce from this exchange that I will need to be at the house around 8am and hang with S10 and his friend while my W takes S13 to paintball at 11 and continues on to her appointment at 12. I will then take my telephone interview call from the house at 2pm.

So I get to the house and W is asleep. She rises about 10:15 or so and she is gathering things for S13's paintball. I ask her when are you leaving to take S13 to paintball. She immediately gets pissed and says "we talked about this and you said you ere going to take him! I have to be at the Dr's at 11:30!"

I respond, "I thought your appointment isn't until 12." She says, "they want me here at 11:30." I said, "Oh, I didn't realize they wanted you there early."

She throws some money on the counter and storms out of the kitchen and into her room, slamming the door. The exchange lasted exactly as long as it took you to read it. About 15-20 seconds.

So given this new set of information I see W will be unable to get S13 to paintball and make her appointment on time because the travel distance is too great and she'll be late.

So I pack up all the kids (S13, S10 and his friend) and we head off to drop S13 at paintball. Before I left I send my W the following text:

Me - Sorry you are upset. We did not cover the logistics of S13 or that you needed to be at your Dr at 11:30. Because we did not cover it, I had assumed you would drop S13 off at 11 and thought 60 minutes would be plenty of time to make your appointment at 12. I further assumed that I would stay behind with S10 and his friend. My bad for assuming. I'll take S13 and S10 and his friend with me. good luck with your appointment.....

W - .....And FYI, these are the logistics I work out all the time.

Me - Yes you do, but when it involves others it helps to communicate them.

So that was it. I did not have any emotion during my W's testy face to face exchange. I wasn't even bothered to take all the boys with me to drop S13 off at paintball.

I will admit however that I started to get agitated when she responded about the logistics she "works out all the time." I got agitated because she thinks she has these conversations with me when she doesn't. I made a point of communicating what I was doing via text so that she could be reminded of the prior exchange and how I might not have all the pertinent information to arrive at the same place she apparently did.

This example ties perfectly with the conversation I had with her a week or so ago about how she needs to be clear in what she wants, needs, expects so that I don't go into assumption/fixit/control mode. She agreed at the time but to my mind missed it in this example.

So how could I have handled this differently?
Posted By: ces67 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/13/12 09:33 PM
This exchanges seems oddly familiar!!

From what I see, you both made assumptions and then acted on the assumptions and neither communicated clearly what was actually needed.

The only thing I see is that your initial response sounds defensive and could be read as "blaming" by your W. Her response, of course was very accusatory, but you can't control her.

Small interactions like this make it very easy to fall into routine patterns because they seem like no big deal. Maybe next time, stop and look at what information is actually there vs. what you may be assuming and then clarify what is needed before acting (?). otherwise, it was a lousy exchange and its over.

Hope you hear how the dr. appoint went and that it went well.
Posted By: mimivac Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/13/12 09:41 PM
Honestly, I think you handled it just fine. You didn't get upset. Afterward you expressed clearly why there was a misunderstanding and then deflected her testy reply with information on how to avoid this kind of thing next time(communitcate the logistics). I'd be interested to know what others think.

Given this exchange and your involvement with your h during her recent illness, it does seem like some fresh detachment is in order, not to punish her, but to find your equilibrium again.

Mimi
Posted By: mimivac Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/13/12 09:44 PM
OK, I do agree with ces that clarifying earlier rather than assuming would have made things smoother all around. But I did not read 2p's initial response as blaming, but as an attempt to explain his thought process.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/13/12 11:37 PM
CES and Mimi, thank you both for your perspective. I hope others will chime in as well as I really want to get this right and the more perspective I can get the better.

Meanwhile, I have a quick update.

=======================

W gets home and gives me an update on her medical condition after meeting with her cardiologist. Turns out her healing is progressing well and the Dr says that 90 days is the usual time frame for hearts to heal from medical stress (wonder if he has an opinion on broken hearts wink ). He wants to extend her disability for several more weeks so she will need to have him sign some paperwork. Also learned that her medical prescription had the wrong dosage which explains her being tired, confused and cranky. So we will be getting that fixed, pronto!

================

Had another interview (3rd so far for same position, with 4th scheduled for Thursday), I think it went really well. My first clue was during my follow up question I asked the interviewer what they are looking for in the best person to fill the position and his response was "pretty much everything you have shared with me in your professional background." Sounds pretty positive to me!!!

===================

So later I am filling in my W on how the interview went and we seem to be communicating well and so I ask her if we could talk about this morning. The first words out of her mouth were "I'm sorry."

I told her that I wasn't looking for an apology but I wanted to explain what I covered in my previous post about assuming things based on only being provided limited information. I went on to explain that we had talked about this very thing a few weeks ago and that we agreed to do better at telling each other exactly what we wanted so we can avoid this type of conflict.

She again sad she was sorry and then asked how I thought logistics were going to flow this morning and I again explained that I thought she would take S13 to paintball and still have 60 minutes to get to her appointment and I'd stay home with S10 and his friend. Anyway, we came to an understanding and put that little episode behind us.

I'd still like additional perspective on ways to avoid this type of conflict in the future.
Posted By: labug Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/13/12 11:55 PM
I wrote a great reply and then forgot to hit submit.

But CS says it better on Denver's thread:


Originally Posted By: cs
Women are stupid. They expect we understand.

Men are stupid. We expect them to understand.


with far fewer words.
Posted By: ces67 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/14/12 12:04 AM
that's great that you all worked it out and she owned part of it as well! Glad to hear she is recovering well also. And "Amen" on a reason for the extra fatigue & irritations!

Great news on the job interview as well! Hope it keeps going that way and you get some great news soon.
Posted By: bustorama Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/14/12 03:08 AM
Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
So I get to the house and W is asleep. She rises about 10:15 or so and she is gathering things for S13's paintball. I ask her when are you leaving to take S13 to paintball. She immediately gets pissed and says "we talked about this and you said you ere going to take him! I have to be at the Dr's at 11:30!"

I respond, "I thought your appointment isn't until 12." She says, "they want me here at 11:30." I said, "Oh, I didn't realize they wanted you there early."

She throws some money on the counter and storms out of the kitchen and into her room, slamming the door. The exchange lasted exactly as long as it took you to read it. About 15-20 seconds.


Imagine W's frame of mind,

W: "OK, LBS said he is taking care of boys. I am totally stressed out about getting to AND the possible outcome of my medical appointment which I only have an hour or so until i am DUE there?!?!"

LBS (what W hears in her anxious state): "What time are you taking boy to paintball? Don't you almost have a couple of hours to get to your thing?"

W: "SERIOUSLY?!??!?! NOW?!?!?! Oh no you didn't"

Me - Sorry you are upset. [lots of EXPLAINING deleted]

Explaining OFTEN comes across as defensiveness regardless of tone or intent. Now, think about this, WHY are you explaining? It's VERY common for guys to do this. Perhaps you want W to see your side thinking that will make her less angry at you if she understands where you are coming from [her being angry at you is a scary thought, especially now], perhaps you don't want to be wrong for your own reasons? Both of those reasons are more about you than about her feelings really. And the explaining could be interpreted by someone in an alarm state as you trying to attribute some kind of fault to them.

The "but" at the end about her needing to communicate with you about logistics can come off as oppositional and also as you TALKING DOWN to her. (don't tell her what she needs to do! she's a grown woman!)

Alternative response:

2PAC: W, I'm sorry for my misunderstanding you, and how it upset you, especially before your appointment. I've got things covered with the boys. Good luck with the appointment.....

[b]W - .....And FYI, these are the logistics I work out all the time.


Me - Either no response or "Lot of logistics to work out!"
Posted By: bustorama Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/14/12 03:13 AM
One more thing, I think it is very anxiety provoking or upsetting for you (especially now) for your W to be angry at you (or for you to be perceived as wrong by her).

It's ok if she gets angry at you. Let her be angry at you (instead of trying to explain why she should not be angry at you). If you give her time, as in this case, you may find that she volunteers an I'm sorry for her anger because she can figure out later, that she was (partly) in the wrong. Let her have her feelings and even accept and validate them.
Posted By: Valeska19 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/14/12 05:50 AM
My advice is to look at Busto's advice.

Sure.. we can all talk about how you could handle these interactions differently...

... but he is asking you to look at your heart.

If you can change your heart, then the interactions will by default, change also.

PS. Have fun in Spain!!
Posted By: nhmom Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/14/12 01:21 PM
Your conversation yesterday was missing some important details, which led both of you to assume.

Misunderstandings can happen, and you handled it well. I agree about not needing to explain yourself in great detail. If a misunderstanding happens, say "I'm sorry, I misunderstood" and leave it at that.

"W - .....And FYI, these are the logistics I work out all the time."

Your boys are at an age where they might have a lot going on and need to be driven around. Your W's statement sounds like she feels that she "always" makes sure they get to where they need to be.

What if you offered your help in figuring out the logistics. Tell her you've given it some thought and you want to help out more playing taxi driver. Maybe suggest having a calendar with their activities written down, but also add your or your W' name underneath to clarify logistics. If things come up and one of you can't take them, then you work it out as they come. If your name shows up on the calendar many times, then she can't later claim that "she" has to figure it all out.

Or, when you know that someone needs to go somewhere, go the extra step and ask who's taking them, especially if W doesn't say "I'm taking S".
Posted By: workinghardguy Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/14/12 03:29 PM
W and I have set up an online calendar using Google docs. We post kid activities, her work schedule, and any out of town trips I have (my work schedule doesn't change).

I won't say it's a perfect system... my W doesn't update as often as she should but it's a start.
Posted By: purgatory Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/14/12 03:40 PM
I like what Labug said on the previous page about women/men expectations.

I know that when I am going to the docs for some tests or results, There's an underlying anxiety to all of my words and actions. I used to get really mad when H wouldn't offer any comfort or calming words- then I'd spend a while being mad at him.... And he never understood why. I've learned to say in advance: "H, I'm really anxious about my appointment, I'm sorry if I seem short-tempered. I'm could really use some support." H always steps up and he doesn't take it personally if I snap at him (although he points it out to me.)

Would it have made a difference if your wife had told you what she was feeling? Would you have seen her words and actions through a different filter? Although you can't make her *see* that she has some underlying feelings motivating her actions, maybe just say to her: "I'm sure you've got some anxiety about what the doctor is going to tell you, that's understandable. Don't stress about the boys, I've got them covered. Please let me know how I can support you." (of course this will only be applicable when the doctor is involved)

But, I do think it's important to be as detailed as possible when coordinating together. It sounds really stupid to say, but I always ask for clarification when making plans with H. And at the end, I repeat back my understanding of the arrangements- usually this showcases a misunderstanding, or H will say: "yep, that's what I think too." I felt really stupid the first few times, and H seemed to be annoyed that I was repeating the conversation, after a few times where we both ended on the same page- he seemed to grasp the value.

Sadly, we think that we know our spouses so well, that we think we can mind read them.... But we've all learned the hard way that we can't. Go into the talks with no expectation that she can read in between the lines of what your saying (the little details that you run through your head that you assume she is too) and vice versa.

These communications skills should be taught in HS. Instead, we had to learn them through trial and error (lots of errors) with someone that we love. Had we come into M with a full toolbox, maybe we could have all avoided fights and breakups.

PS: your interviews sound promising!!! Don't want to jinx it, but sounds like it's in the bag!!
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/15/12 01:55 PM
2 days left for 2Pac!!!
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/15/12 01:59 PM
Quote:
And there are two big relationship problems that can develop if we "give" in these co-dependent ways. One is the person that we are trying to subconsciously influence/elicit a reaction from may not like being controlled (if they perceive it that way). The other is that we can become sad/resentful/withdrawn/angry that we didn't subconsciously get the tit that we were hoping to get for our tat. And that negative emotion may further hamper the R dynamic.


I understand your point. To be clear, my W's LL is Acts of Service. Clearly I had been failing in that department for quite some time. And so I am working to make up for that.

I have found that the more I do, the more I enjoy it and the better is makes me feel. Not because I'm am hoping to elicit a response or reaction from her, but because it makes me feel good to be able to do things for another person, namely my W but others too.

It is in my nature to want to help others and do acts of service for others. What was missing was that I had been doing these things for others and not my W. Essentially putting others needs above that of my W. So now I am tryng to rectify that and am finding that I enjoy doing these things for my W just as much as I do helping others.

I will admit that if we do get a chance to R, I am really going to need my W to step up in the delivery of actions that feed my LL, specifically physical touch (not so much sexual but in other ways - hold my hand, rub my neck, willingly kiss me when I get home from work, etc.). And so I do hope that by continually filling her tank, she will become open to filling mine at some point in the future and after we have an opportunity to discuss if we get to a point where piecing can begin.

I hope this is making sense.

Quote:
A solution is to really work on giving unconditionally and without expectation -- this is a process of being truly honest with yourself re: WHY you are doing the behavior (is it to show her something, or with hopes that it will change something in her? or is it simply to give to her?). Acts of service ARE very important in relationships; you just need to get to the point when they are motivated as JUST acts of service FOR your partner and not acts of service (partly) FOR 2pac.


See my post above. I also would say that getting into the habit of doing acts of service regularly goes a long way towards ensuring they are motivated as actions directed for the benefit of my partner and not me.

Quote:
A second solution (for when you are in an R) is to ask or openly talk about whatever it is that you might otherwise be trying to achieve covertly through your behavior.


This is where my desire for reciprocation (i.e. physical touch) would come into play. I hope we get here because for years, that has been missing from our R.

Quote:
And a third solution is to assess or work on whatever feelings in you are motivating the behavior. In your case, it might be the great fear that your W may not notice your changes or, at its base, that she will not come back to you and be lost to you. It is hard not to act on such strong feelings. But, it is possible to by cognitive methods and detachment.


I think I touched on this above.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/15/12 02:12 PM
Originally Posted By: bustorama
One more thing, I think it is very anxiety provoking or upsetting for you (especially now) for your W to be angry at you (or for you to be perceived as wrong by her).


I think this is true! She had to be pissed enough to want to end the M. The idea that I would continue to make her angry is not something that I want to do and would hope to avoid.

Originally Posted By: bustorama
It's ok if she gets angry at you. Let her be angry at you (instead of trying to explain why she should not be angry at you). If you give her time, as in this case, you may find that she volunteers an I'm sorry for her anger because she can figure out later, that she was (partly) in the wrong. Let her have her feelings and even accept and validate them.


Good reminder and this has happened before as I have talked about in a previous post when W said she was sorry for being a crab. That was unsolicited and I need to remember that she is capable of recognizing and apologizing for her offensive behavior.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/15/12 02:50 PM
Everyone who opined on my question on how to better handle communication and logistics and reactions to bitchy attitude, thank you. All good perspective and I will see what I can apply and where/when in the future.

So here is an update:

So after W and I have our little conversation about needing to be very clear on communicating expectations and where she apologized; I later sent her a text message. I was feeling bad that she felt the need to apologize when that wasn't what I was looking for, I just needed for us to communicate our needs a little better.

Anyway, I sent the the following text, (I can already hear the wind passing by the 2x4's as they are being wound up for their delivery upside my head):

Me - I'm sorry. I will try to do better in anticipating when we need to clarify things so we don't have disagreements or misunderstandings. I have a role to play here. Trying....

W - I will do better


I was going to respond to her last text but decided to drop it.

Interesting thing occurred though. Yesterday, she sends me a text inviting me to join her and the boys for burgers with a family friend and her kids. I can't recall the last time I got such an invitation to do something with the family AND someone else.

Now as it turned out, W was pretty worn out yesterday and she ultimately ended up not going but she encouraged me to go anyway and said she would try to get together with this family friend at another time.

So anyway I thought this was a positive development. Which leads me to another point which ties in with a point Busto and Pergatory were making.....

When W informed me that she wasn't going to go out for burgers, I went to her room to see if she was ok. She was lying in bed with her eyes closed but she was awake. I asked her if she was ok.

She tells me that she doesn't feel like going because she is tired and her emotions are getting the best of her. So here is where I think... time to validate! And so I tell her that with all that has gone on, I can definitely see how her emotions can be running pretty high.

And with that she starts to open up a bit. She said that although she is feeling tons better and really doesn't anticipate long term complications from her illness, she has been starting to come to the realization of just how sick she had been and really how close she came to dying.

Apparently when she went to see her cardiologist on Tuesday, he reminded her of all the things I have mentioned in previous posts but which she apparently forgot or didn't understand, (i.e. she had pneumonia in both lungs and a viral infection in her heart, her heart was enlarged, she had a leaking heart valve, and was suffering from heart failure while she was in the hospital and that the "defib paddles" were with her at all times when she was being wheeled about for various tests).

So now all this is starting to set in and is really throwing her for an emotional loop.

I share this because it ties in perfectly with previous comments about my W's frame of mind and how that may be fueling some of what I interpreted as bitchy behavior but was really probably fueled by fear and anxiety.

As I reflect back on our conversations since her release from the hospital 3 weeks ago, my W had me convinced that she was "fine" and was very confident of her full recovery. I guess I was taking her at her word and so all my actions and interpretations of her actions were from a place of "everything is normal" when in fact they are not!

So, really good observations from the other posters. Thanks for bringing me back down to earth in this regard!
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/16/12 03:40 AM
Final preparations are underway for my long anticipated trip to Spain. I leave in the morning. Today I wrapped up job interview #4 and I hope to hear something in the next few days about next steps. I would love nothing more than to come home to a new job and a new life!

I'm feeling a little melancholy about the trip though. I feel like I am abandoning my family and my W.

Today, W had a Dr appointment with her pulmonary Dr. and she was told that they now don't believe that she had pneumonia after all. Instead the Dr's believe that she had a virus in her heart that caused her to experience heart failure and what they initially thought was pneumonia was actually the side affects from the virus/heart failure.

So now my W is even more depressed about her illness than she had been because the primary issue was her heart and not the pneumonia. The past few days she has been what she termed "terribly emotional". I've tried to engage her but haven't had much luck. I feel really bad for her and am concerned about her emotional health.

Tonight I told her that I was prepared to cancel my trip if she felt she needed me to stick around. She said so, I want you to go and have a great time. So I guess that is what I will do.

I still feel pretty crappy though and hope I can shake this funk!
Posted By: labug Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/16/12 03:42 AM
You will! Once you get up in the air and out of the pull of W's gravity, you'll be great!
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/16/12 02:27 PM
Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
I'm feeling a little melancholy about the trip though. I feel like I am abandoning my family and my W.


I can empathize 2. For a long time I couldn't bring myself to even go out to a bar for happy hour and miss dinner w/ my kids because I felt like I was abandoning them.

I think being the LBS causes us to overemphasize this dynamic and in fact it is the opposite. We are doing everything in our power to keep our family together.

Be proud of that and prepare yourself for a trip of a lifetime!


Can't wait to hear about it!!
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/19/12 10:16 PM
Hi folks! Quick GAL update.

I've been in Spain since Saturday morning and am really loving the culture, the people, the architecture and the food!

Today, my friends and I took the train to Toledo (pronounced "Tolaytho"). What an amazing city/village! I wish I could post pictures because you would be amazed.

Apart from walking up and down the curving old cobblestone streets (only wide enough for a car and pedestrians) snapping pictures of everything, my friends and I went to a museum that was doing an exhibit on Leonardo Di Vinci which we found to be very interesting.

The museum was also hosting an exhibit on torture devices used during the time of the Spanish Inquisition. It is quite alarming to see just how barbaric people in a position of authority were way back then. Some of the devices were cruel beyond description.

I'd be lying though if the thought of deploying one or two of the devices on our WAS's didn't cross my mind. grin Of course, these were just fleeting thoughts!

So there you have it. I hope everyone is doing well.

Oh, did I tell you that my WAW took me to the airport and gave me a big hug as she sent me on my way? smile
Posted By: purgatory Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/19/12 11:04 PM
The torture devices would be interesting on a WAS smile

Spain sounds amazing!! Have a wonderful time!!!
Posted By: Ichrus Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/19/12 11:22 PM
Can you ship a device or two home for use on OM/OW as needed too?

;-)
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/20/12 11:36 AM
OK this GAL is getting out of hand! Last night I went to bed around 1:00 am (7pm back home). I fall asleep pretty quickly which is not a surprise considering I was trudging up and down ancient cobblestones pathways most of the previous day.

As has been my habit since arriving in Spain, I wake up at 4:00 am and can't fall back to sleep. So I surf the net for a few minutes, begin to feel sleepy again, close my eyes and when I open them again it is 12:00 noon!! Ack! Half the day is gone!

I think I'll go back to sleep again! smile
Posted By: ces67 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/20/12 11:44 AM
Glad you trip is going so well! And definitely a positive with the hug! Have fun!
Posted By: nhmom Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/20/12 01:12 PM
Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
Oh, did I tell you that my WAW took me to the airport and gave me a big hug as she sent me on my way? smile


No, you forgot to mention that!! That's great!

I'm so glad you're having a good trip!
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/20/12 03:07 PM
Only a few days left 2, make the most of it. Can't wait to see, read, hear more about it.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/20/12 09:49 PM
GAL update:

Went to bed around 1:00 am last night but didn't get up until 12:00 noon - guess I was tired! I ventured out to the local Mercado (supermarket) to pick up a few things but spent almost 2 hours there. I found it to be incredibly difficult to buy basic household food items when everything is in Spanish and the workers only speak Spanish. I put a lot of faith in some of my food selections. If I don't ever post again it is because I ate something that probably killed me! smile

Late this afternoon, I took a stroll several blocks east of the apartment and stumbled upon the Museo Nacional Del Prado. At 6:00pm they had free admission and so I waited around and then got to see some fabulous art! Among them included works by Rafael, Le Greco, Velasquez, Goya, Rembrandt and many more. It was truly amazing!

After the museo, I enjoyed sangria and a great dinner with friends and then a leisurely stroll back to the apartment to relax before heading off to bed for the night.

All in all, it was a short but very good day!
Posted By: labug Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/21/12 02:06 AM
Score on the free museo entry! I'm so glad you're having such a great time.
Posted By: bustorama Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/21/12 05:32 AM
2,

Some food suggestions:

In the mercado, ask for a block of "turron" or "yema" for a bit of take home desert. Other tasty Spanish desserts in restaurants include natilla (nateeya -- a rice custard), pude de pan (bread pudding), and of course flan.

If you like eggs and potatoes, for breakfast, ask for tortilla (very difft from Mexican tortilla)
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/23/12 10:19 PM
OK, I survived my mercado experience and believe I have had each of the items Busto mentioned above...at least once. The food has been very good for the most part with just a few exceptions mostly attributed to poor choice of restaurant.

Today is/was my last day in Madrid and I have really had a great time. The sights, sounds and smells have been amazing. The architecture has been fascinating and I would definitely recommend a visit to Spain to anyone interested in European culture and architecture.

================================

Regarding the sitch, I have been doing a pretty good job of avoiding even thinking about my marital problems and only had one rough day the other day.

I woke up in the middle of the night feeling sad. Before going to bed for the night I went for a late night walk in the city and noticed lots of people out and about. Then I got to thinking that maybe there really is no hope for my M.

I think the trigger was that as I was walking the streets of Madrid I saw so many people in love; holding hands, embracing warmly, sharing passionate kisses and it made me wake up to the realization that I may never have that again.

I shared these feelings I was having with some friends who helped me to clear my head of that kind of thinking and just as quickly as it came over me, it passed. I guess we all have our moments.

==============================

So I've been gone one full week today and was surprised to receive a text message from my W. I was even more surprised by the content of the message. Below is the exchange:

W: "Did u worry i might die in the hosp? "Truth plz".

Me: "Yes, very much so. You went from being in the hospital for pneumonia to being admitted to ICU...directly in front of Dr/Nurses station. Why do you think I didn't want to leave your side?"

W: "Once i cld breathe again i felt pretty good so all i thought was my heart rate was fast. Is there any info u wont tell me? I have a real need to know everything now"

Me: "All I know is your sustained heart rate was 160 for several days. When I run on the treadmill at a speed that is faster than recommended for my age, my heart rate gets to 160 but I only do it for at most 10-15 minutes. Then I feel like dropping dead. Your heart rate was at that level for several days!"

Then she responds with - "Ok, go back and enjoy your trip."

I asked her what was running through her head and she says, "never mind."

To me this kind of conversation clearly calls for some follow up but not via text or from 5000 miles away. I just don't know what to make of this. I mean, we've had these types of discussions before. Everything I shared with her today I've told her before. I just don't know what is prompting her to bring this up again and the part about "Is there any info u wont tell me? I have a real need to know everything now" really strikes me as odd. Whats the urgency? And what difference does it make? She is under the care of very good doctors who are giving her all the information about her condition that is available.

Any suggestions about how I ought to approach this when I get home is appreciated. I am particularly interested in what not to say or what to avoid in conversation. Do I even bring any of this up or do I wait for her to broach the subject?

Thanks for reading and any advice you might have. I'll check back in once I get state side.
Posted By: hopeless in wa Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/24/12 03:26 AM
Maybe, the direness of her situation is sinking in. Maybe a little post traumatic stress? I also feel sometimes, well alot of times that I won't have someone to hold hands with, kiss, love. It hurts.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/26/12 02:18 AM
I'm back from Spain. Flight got in late yesterday and W and S10 picked me up from the airport. Unfortunately I didn't get the grand "welcome home" I was hoping for. Instead, W sent me a text to say they were waiting on cell phone waiting area and to let her know when I was ready. So that was a bit of a let down.

When we got back to the house and because we had an early morning and long drive to S13's soccer game, I spent the night at the house so I could maximize my sleep before getting on the road in the morning.

The morning started out pretty good with everyone in good spirits. On the long drive to the soccer game, I shared stories about my trip with my W who seemed very interested. We never talked about her text to me while I was in Spain, (see my prior post for details on that). I suppose that will come up at another time.

The drive home was kind of a downer for me because for about 45 minutes W was on the phone with who I'm pretty certain was OM. I was really annoyed that she would be so insensitive to have a conversation with OM while I was in the same car with her.

Anyway, I tried to get over it by trying to keep a PMA and get us home. After we arrived at home, I see the house is a wreck! Dishes piled up and trash overflowing, etc. It makes me crazy! So I thought I'd help out a little and started to put the dirty dishes in the dishwasher.

Just then W walks up and says I wish you wouldn't do that and I say, why? She said "it makes me feel bad." And I tell her I'm not doing it to make her feel bad, just trying to help out some. With that she walks out of the room.

I felt like saying, W do you know what makes me feel bad? It's when you are on the phone for 45 minutes with OM while we're driving in the car together. Actually that makes me feel like sh!t so how about we both stop making each other feel bad? Of course I said none of that and just bit my tongue.

So anyway, I finish putting the dishes away, start the dishwasher and take out the trash, pack up my belongings from my trip and promptly make my exit.

Upon arriving at my other place, I walk in the door and find my roommate there with his GF and her 3 kids, watching a movie. I felt like a complete intruder and it just compounded my now deteriorating mood.

So I guess to sum things up, I'm feeling pretty crappy at the moment. Kind of like a ship lost at sea with no port to call home. My real home is a place where I am not completely welcome, and my second home is occupied. So where do I go now?
Posted By: BklynMom Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/26/12 02:33 AM
2tp - it aint easy man. What we are dealing with it so hard. Sometimes it feels like we are losing our minds but really it is not us. The more we GAL and get help for ourselves the more obvious it is that we are dealing with a wack job.

I honestly think your wifes C is quack because she is not getting your W the help that she needs. I saw many quacks before I found someone that could diagnois me and help me. Now that I am really getting help for depression I can see the other therapist were just barely helping.

Also just watched the movie Young Adult. Although its not about WAS it is about a crazy but high functioning alcoholic. Family didnt really believe she was as bonkers as she was because she was high functioning. Not a happy movie but made me think. These type of breakdowns happen in many different forms.

Hang in their 2, you are a great man and father. And you will be appreciated again by a woman that thinks you are the sexiest.
Posted By: ces67 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/26/12 02:54 AM
2- I am SO GLAD you got to go to Spain. I'm sure it will be a wonderful memory to keep with you.

I'm sorry the homecoming was so lousy though. I hope you can let go of the negatives and jump into your GAL back home. Definitely no fun feeling like a nomad. I get that feeling sometimes in my own place.

Still keeping my fingers crossed for you on the job. Hope you hear some good news soon!
Posted By: workinghardguy Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/26/12 03:43 AM
Glad you had a good trip 2TP... Spain must have been pretty cool... Sorry the return was a downer... but you also seem to have created a mental construct of your return that led to certain expectations...

Quote:
So that was a bit of a let down.

Quote:
The drive home was kind of a downer for me because for about 45 minutes W was on the phone with who I'm pretty certain was OM. I was really annoyed that she would be so insensitive to have a conversation with OM while I was in the same car with her.

Quote:
After we arrived at home, I see the house is a wreck! Dishes piled up and trash overflowing, etc. It makes me crazy!
Your comments are riddled with expectations. An expectation that she'll welcome you home. An expectation that she would be something other than involved with her OM. An expectation that she's become good at the domestic stuff.

Just because you went to Spain doesn't mean she's changed one iota. Maybe the text message made you think things are shifting. And maybe they are, but you won't see those changes on the surface for a long time and until she's ready. You have the power to not let any of those above darken your mood by setting your expectations in line with reality.

As far as your home... you have control there too. First, you feel like an interloper in your roommate's place. Are you? You're assigning a value/feeling to him that he may or may not have. BTW... does this behavior sound familiar? Simply ask him. Ask him if you're presence or something like the other night makes him uncomfortable. He'll tell you. Or he won't, but if he doesn't that's his problem. You did the adult thing and asked him. What you're doing now is creating a feeling for him that you have no idea is valid or not and then allowing that fictional condition to drive how you feel.

And if he says that it does make it difficult... well, you'll have to make a decision. Find a new place or work out a system/situation that works for the two of you. Being roommates has similarities to being married... the communication piece is required for both.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/26/12 02:57 PM
CES - thanks for the post. Still waiting to hear about the job. I wrapped up interview #4 a week ago last Thursday and they knew I was away last week, so I'm hoping to hear from them in the next few days. Fingers crossed!!!!

Originally Posted By: workinghardguy
Glad you had a good trip 2TP... Spain must have been pretty cool... Sorry the return was a downer... but you also seem to have created a mental construct of your return that led to certain expectations...


Quote:
So that was a bit of a let down.


It was a let down not because I was expecting a hug from my W at the airport but because I was hoping to be able to greet the kids at the airport in the terminal. You know how heart warming it is to see others greet their loved ones after coming back from a trip? I was hoping for that and it didn't happen.

Quote:
The drive home was kind of a downer for me because for about 45 minutes W was on the phone with who I'm pretty certain was OM. I was really annoyed that she would be so insensitive to have a conversation with OM while I was in the same car with her.


Quote:
After we arrived at home, I see the house is a wreck! Dishes piled up and trash overflowing, etc. It makes me crazy!


Quote:
Your comments are riddled with expectations. An expectation that she'll welcome you home. An expectation that she would be something other than involved with her OM. An expectation that she's become good at the domestic stuff.

Just because you went to Spain doesn't mean she's changed one iota. Maybe the text message made you think things are shifting. And maybe they are, but you won't see those changes on the surface for a long time and until she's ready. You have the power to not let any of those above darken your mood by setting your expectations in line with reality.


I suppose you are right. We are going on 7 months since the bomb and it's been 4 months since I moved out. I must admit that I am growing weary.

Quote:
As far as your home... you have control there too. First, you feel like an interloper in your roommate's place. Are you? You're assigning a value/feeling to him that he may or may not have. BTW... does this behavior sound familiar? Simply ask him. Ask him if you're presence or something like the other night makes him uncomfortable. He'll tell you. Or he won't, but if he doesn't that's his problem. You did the adult thing and asked him. What you're doing now is creating a feeling for him that you have no idea is valid or not and then allowing that fictional condition to drive how you feel.


This is a good reminder. It turns out that roommates S8 was in town (his mother lives out of state) and so roommates GF and her kids were over there and kids were playing with his son who I had not seen when I first walked into the house.

And so it turns out to be a mis-queue for me but it sure fit nicely with my mood as I walked through the door. The mind sure does a number on human emotions!!

Quote:
And if he says that it does make it difficult... well, you'll have to make a decision. Find a new place or work out a system/situation that works for the two of you. Being roommates has similarities to being married... the communication piece is required for both.


This is true and we don't have a problem communicating, at all. It was just my initial reaction to events based upon my mindset at that moment which has now passed.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/26/12 04:24 PM
W made a comment to me about menopause yesterday during our 2 hour drive to S13's soccer match. She basically said that menopause causes huge mood swings and that they are/were awful! She said she finally found the proper medication to handle the mood swings.

Now as I reflect on what she said, I can't help but think back over the past couple of years and her erratic behavior which I thought was menopause related. She'd constantly be complaining about how hot it was (hot flashes) even though I was freezing my ass off! Then she'd have these "huge mood swings" and I'd suggest she see a Dr. because I thought it was menopause related or that her meds for depression and anxiety needed to be adjusted and she'd just get pissed at me and resentful of me and that I think is how we found ourselves in our present sitch.

Since she was basically ignoring me and my observations of her behavior I too began to grow resentful and that probably showed in my behavior towards her. Then you add in the mix the OM who was never present during her mood swings and he comes across as this wonderful, caring individual and I'm just this resentful and resented husband who doesn't care.

And then it all begins to make sense! I am no longer qualified to be her husband. She is going through a MLC and I am to be cast aside for something better.

I find it telling that she is now able to recognize her mood swings for what they were. I am really bothered though that she hasn't been able to put the pieces together to see how maybe this is the catalyst that brought about our marital problems.

Sure there are other contributing factors to our problems; my selfish and controlling behavior as an example. Her lack of interest in speaking my love language as another. But I do believe that the menopause thing is the big elephant in the room.

Any thoughts?
Posted By: adinva Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/26/12 04:49 PM
Hi T2P, WELCOME HOME!!!!

You are tired and stressed from your trip, no matter how fun it was, so being very forgiving of yourself and others for a while until you're all the way back to 100%.

What I noticed about your return home was that you seem to have forgotten your 180s while away. What are they again?

You walked in the house with your fam after a week away and started doing the dishes?! and when your W said that made her feel bad you told her why she's wrong?! and then went back to finish the dishes!? Bam with a 2x4. If you get a do-over in the near future, I suggest paying more attention to the people - such as, ignore the state of the house and show your kids (and W if she comes looking) your favorite pictures of your trip and ask if they have any new stuff to show you.

Your expectations hurt you more than anything external here. I don't know about the cell phone waiting area where you are, but here it is required - families can't go in and get their returning loved ones. I think it was good that she came to pick you up and brought the kids. HOWEVER, I've been overseas a few times and have also found that the stress, excitement, jet lag or whatever leads to a little bit of depression temporarily about coming home - raised expectations or whatever. You'll get through it and get back to your 180s and GALs back home. But that's why I suggest being extra forgiving of yourself and your family for a little while.

2TP I know you for a very deep, insightful, compassionate and loving man. This is an opportunity to live out who you really want to be - regardless of how everyone around you may be behaving. I'm definitely on your side and I want to see you succeed.
Posted By: workinghardguy Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/26/12 04:57 PM
Quote:
You know how heart warming it is to see others greet their loved ones after coming back from a trip? I was hoping for that and it didn't happen.
Yeah I know... I travel fairly often for work. I see the reunions all the time as I deplane at various airports. Sort of twinges my heart each time still.

Should you find yourself in this situation again one option would be to simply tell your W you'd like the kids to be at the terminal so you can see them right away. It's fun for kids to watch the airplanes takeoff and land, to see the comings and goings of an airport, and so on. And it's got to be more fun than sitting in the cell phone lot with kids cooped up in a car. You could even be clear you just want to see the kids and tell her I don't expect anything from you.

Considering where your W is right now if you want something to happen you have to row your own boat.


Quote:
I suppose you are right. We are going on 7 months since the bomb and it's been 4 months since I moved out. I must admit that I am growing weary.
Amen brother... A.. freaking... men...
Posted By: bustorama Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/26/12 07:54 PM
Hey 2tp,

Welcome back from trip. Some of these things have been pointed out, but I'd like to emphasize them =)

Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
Flight got in late yesterday and W and S10 picked me up from the airport. Unfortunately I didn't get the grand "welcome home" I was hoping for. Instead, W sent me a text to say they were waiting on cell phone waiting area and to let her know when I was ready. So that was a bit of a let down.


We let ourselves down when we allow ourselves to do this to ourselves with our expectations. Our emotional reactions are direct results of how we interpret/frame things. You might have experienced the same objective event (W and S10 picking you up at airport) as a positive event if your expectations had been different OR if you had reframed things using cognitive techniques when you found yourself feeling letdown. Change your thinking and your feelings change.

"Well, there was no grand reception with kids in airport, but it sure is great to see S10, haven't seen him in a week, and it is fantastic to be with him again. I sure missed him."

"Well, at least W had the courtesy to bring S10 to pick me up at the airport, in some other people's sitches, W lives in another state with OM, and could give a flying EFF about bringing family members together, let alone picking up LBS at airport, etc."

Quote:
The drive home was kind of a downer for me because for about 45 minutes W was on the phone with who I'm pretty certain was OM. I was really annoyed that she would be so insensitive to have a conversation with OM while I was in the same car with her.


Couple of thoughts here:

1) how certain are you that she was on phone with OM (rather than you mindreading/projecting)?

2) let's say you are CERTAIN that she WAS on phone with OM, are you cool with your W talking to OM while you are there? No, you were annoyed. Because it is very disrespectful. EVEN IF you guys were divorced, it is disrespectful for her to do that, and it's especially disrespectful for her to do that while you are not D in front of your S. You let others (and yourself) cross your boundaries when you allow yourself to be disrespected. And you feel shitty as a result. What are some possible ways to handle this differently?

(quietly so S cannot hear) "You know, W. I'm not totally sure what is going on, so please fill me in. I am feeling disrespected because I think that you may be talking to OM on the phone in front of me and our S. Am I wrong about this, because it's hard for me to imagine you would really be doing that? (and if not) I'm not cool with you talking to OM in front of me or my S. If you don't hang up, I am going to pull over and let you out so you can keep talking to him." Her choice to keep talking or not, same as it is your choice to subject yourself to her talking to him.

It may seem conflict promoting to do this, but your W has to respect you to feel love for you. And she will only respect you if you demand that she treat you with the respect that you deserve. If she is insensitive enough to talk to OM in front of you and you do not call her on it, then she does not and will not respect you.

And, perhaps most importantly, you are not respecting yourself when you fail to speak up when others cross your boundaries. Don't do this to yourself. Be true to yourself.

What do you think your W feels about you if you are cool with her talking to OM while you are there?

Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
Anyway, I tried to get over it by trying to keep a PMA and get us home. After we arrived at home, I see the house is a wreck! Dishes piled up and trash overflowing, etc. It makes me crazy! So I thought I'd help out a little and started to put the dirty dishes in the dishwasher.

Just then W walks up and says I wish you wouldn't do that and I say, why? She said "it makes me feel bad." And I tell her I'm not doing it to make her feel bad, just trying to help out some. With that she walks out of the room.


You are not helping out when she asks you to stop because it makes her feel bad. You also are not helping out when you explain to her why she is wrong to feel bad. Don't wash her dishes or tidy up. It is HER house now (NOT your home like you slipped back into again), and she is a grown woman. And for the love of God, stop taking her trash out!!!!

When she says to you please don't do that it makes me feel bad, the appropriate response is to stop and say you know, W. You are right, I don't know what I was thinking washing your dishes or taking out your trash. It is 100% pursuit, you might as well be bringing her roses.

I know it hurts 2tp, but you have got to reframe your reality and live that (now at least) HER house is NOT YOUR HOME.

I agree with the other posters about talking openly with your new roommate to have your NEW HOME situation be comfortable for the both of you.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/26/12 09:35 PM
2Pac....tough to come home to the reminders that the battle does indeed go on.

You do have a choice here...to choose happiness and a future that meets your desires....to define your boundaries about the O-dbag so that her BS is not part of your daily life...to let her learn from the consequences of her choices. The part about her crappy housecleaning. Let her deal with it. You should see the room my W is staying in at home. It's like horder meets Howard Hughes. I absolutely refuse to clean it up although it's pretty disturbing.

After your trip you must see that there are infinite possibilities for a new life out there. CES said today "let the lord fight for you...just stand still". I think if you reach the right state of mind to handle this, then one of those infinite life possibilites out there will choose you...just be still.

I'll meet you on the other side...and we can talk about how great our lives are!
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/27/12 03:19 AM
Adinva - thanks for your post. Sometimes I guess a reminder in the form of a slap upside the head is necessary to get me to focus in the right area.

Regarding the messy kitchen, I just couldn't help myself. It is clear that W struggles in this area. I really wasn't trying to get attention by cleaning up a bit. It just looked like it needed to be done and so I did it. I wasn't expecting W to complain and obviously my response wasn't ideal. I need to work on that for the future, no doubt!

Quote:
2TP I know you for a very deep, insightful, compassionate and loving man. This is an opportunity to live out who you really want to be - regardless of how everyone around you may be behaving. I'm definitely on your side and I want to see you succeed.


Thanks for that validation. It means a lot to know that my writings come across as who I really am. I just wish my W could see it as well.

Thanks again for your post.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/27/12 03:34 AM
Originally Posted By: bustorama
Our emotional reactions are direct results of how we interpret/frame things. You might have experienced the same objective event (W and S10 picking you up at airport) as a positive event if your expectations had been different OR if you had reframed things using cognitive techniques when you found yourself feeling letdown. Change your thinking and your feelings change.


Quote:
"Well, there was no grand reception with kids in airport, but it sure is great to see S10, haven't seen him in a week, and it is fantastic to be with him again. I sure missed him."


Quote:
"Well, at least W had the courtesy to bring S10 to pick me up at the airport, in some other people's sitches, W lives in another state with OM, and could give a flying EFF about bringing family members together, let alone picking up LBS at airport, etc."


These are good suggestions on how to look at things from a different perspective. This would definitely have helped me to avoid being disappointed. I'll try this next time. Live and learn!

Quote:
1) how certain are you that she was on phone with OM (rather than you mindreading/projecting)?


I'm not entirely certain but I'd be willing to put money on it that she was talking to OM. Of course under the very remote possibility that she was talking to someone else, then yes, I am guilty of mind reading and projecting.

Quote:
2) let's say you are CERTAIN that she WAS on phone with OM, are you cool with your W talking to OM while you are there? No, you were annoyed. Because it is very disrespectful. EVEN IF you guys were divorced, it is disrespectful for her to do that, and it's especially disrespectful for her to do that while you are not D in front of your S. You let others (and yourself) cross your boundaries when you allow yourself to be disrespected. And you feel shitty as a result. What are some possible ways to handle this differently?


Quote:
(quietly so S cannot hear) "You know, W. I'm not totally sure what is going on, so please fill me in. I am feeling disrespected because I think that you may be talking to OM on the phone in front of me and our S. Am I wrong about this, because it's hard for me to imagine you would really be doing that? (and if not) I'm not cool with you talking to OM in front of me or my S. If you don't hang up, I am going to pull over and let you out so you can keep talking to him." Her choice to keep talking or not, same as it is your choice to subject yourself to her talking to him.


Quote:
It may seem conflict promoting to do this, but your W has to respect you to feel love for you. And she will only respect you if you demand that she treat you with the respect that you deserve. If she is insensitive enough to talk to OM in front of you and you do not call her on it, then she does not and will not respect you.


You are right, it would seem to produce conflict which if I'm honest about it, I don't want to create conflict. I guess I fear running her further away by doing that. I feel like the fact that we can even go places together (albeit always with the kids) that that is some type of accomplishment and I don't want to mess that up.

Of course your point is valid regarding respect so I need to figure out a way get that addressed. But in a way that is helpful and not hurtful to my present sitch.

Quote:
What do you think your W feels about you if you are cool with her talking to OM while you are there?


I haven't the foggiest idea what she thinks or feels. I guess the only way to know for sure is to deal with it directly with her.

Quote:
You are not helping out when she asks you to stop because it makes her feel bad. You also are not helping out when you explain to her why she is wrong to feel bad. Don't wash her dishes or tidy up. It is HER house now (NOT your home like you slipped back into again), and she is a grown woman. And for the love of God, stop taking her trash out!!!!


You and BK have been harping on the trash issue for qI'm going to title my next thread...taking out the trash!

When she says to you please don't do that it makes me feel bad, the appropriate response is to stop and say you know, W. You are right, I don't know what I was thinking washing your dishes or taking out your trash. It is 100% pursuit, you might as well be bringing her roses.

I know it hurts 2tp, but you have got to reframe your reality and live that (now at least) HER house is NOT YOUR HOME.

I agree with the other posters about talking openly with your new roommate to have your NEW HOME situation be comfortable for the both of you.
[/quote]
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/27/12 03:40 AM
Damn! I hit enter by mistake before I could finish my post. Wish the edit button worked!

Originally Posted By: bustorama
Our emotional reactions are direct results of how we interpret/frame things. You might have experienced the same objective event (W and S10 picking you up at airport) as a positive event if your expectations had been different OR if you had reframed things using cognitive techniques when you found yourself feeling letdown. Change your thinking and your feelings change.


Quote:
"Well, there was no grand reception with kids in airport, but it sure is great to see S10, haven't seen him in a week, and it is fantastic to be with him again. I sure missed him."


Quote:
"Well, at least W had the courtesy to bring S10 to pick me up at the airport, in some other people's sitches, W lives in another state with OM, and could give a flying EFF about bringing family members together, let alone picking up LBS at airport, etc."


These are good suggestions on how to look at things from a different perspective. This would definitely have helped me to avoid being disappointed. I'll try this next time. Live and learn!

Quote:
1) how certain are you that she was on phone with OM (rather than you mindreading/projecting)?


I'm not entirely certain but I'd be willing to put money on it that she was talking to OM. Of course under the very remote possibility that she was talking to someone else, then yes, I am guilty of mind reading and projecting.

Quote:
2) let's say you are CERTAIN that she WAS on phone with OM, are you cool with your W talking to OM while you are there? No, you were annoyed. Because it is very disrespectful. EVEN IF you guys were divorced, it is disrespectful for her to do that, and it's especially disrespectful for her to do that while you are not D in front of your S. You let others (and yourself) cross your boundaries when you allow yourself to be disrespected. And you feel shitty as a result. What are some possible ways to handle this differently?


Quote:
(quietly so S cannot hear) "You know, W. I'm not totally sure what is going on, so please fill me in. I am feeling disrespected because I think that you may be talking to OM on the phone in front of me and our S. Am I wrong about this, because it's hard for me to imagine you would really be doing that? (and if not) I'm not cool with you talking to OM in front of me or my S. If you don't hang up, I am going to pull over and let you out so you can keep talking to him." Her choice to keep talking or not, same as it is your choice to subject yourself to her talking to him.


Quote:
It may seem conflict promoting to do this, but your W has to respect you to feel love for you. And she will only respect you if you demand that she treat you with the respect that you deserve. If she is insensitive enough to talk to OM in front of you and you do not call her on it, then she does not and will not respect you.


You are right, it would seem to produce conflict which if I'm honest about it, I don't want to create conflict. I guess I fear running her further away by doing that. I feel like the fact that we can even go places together (albeit always with the kids) that that is some type of accomplishment and I don't want to mess that up.

Of course your point is valid regarding respect so I need to figure out a way get that addressed. But in a way that is helpful and not hurtful to my present sitch.

Quote:
What do you think your W feels about you if you are cool with her talking to OM while you are there?


I haven't the foggiest idea what she thinks or feels. I guess the only way to know for sure is to deal with it directly with her.

Quote:
You are not helping out when she asks you to stop because it makes her feel bad. You also are not helping out when you explain to her why she is wrong to feel bad. Don't wash her dishes or tidy up. It is HER house now (NOT your home like you slipped back into again), and she is a grown woman. And for the love of God, stop taking her trash out!!!!


You and BK have been harping on the trash issue for quite awhile. I think I'm going to title my next thread...taking out the trash!

Quote:
When she says to you please don't do that it makes me feel bad, the appropriate response is to stop and say you know, W. You are right, I don't know what I was thinking washing your dishes or taking out your trash. It is 100% pursuit, you might as well be bringing her roses.


You are absolutely correct here. And that is a very good example of what to say/do. And I bet it would have been a complete shock to her had I said just that. Next time...

Quote:
I know it hurts 2tp, but you have got to reframe your reality and live that (now at least) HER house is NOT YOUR HOME.


Ugh! I know!
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/27/12 03:43 AM
I didn't get any response on the board from an earlier post I made regarding menopause that has since become buried so I am re-posting here in the hopes that others will chime in.

Quote:
W made a comment to me about menopause yesterday during our 2 hour drive to S13's soccer match. She basically said that menopause causes huge mood swings and that they are/were awful! She said she finally found the proper medication to handle the mood swings.

Now as I reflect on what she said, I can't help but think back over the past couple of years and her erratic behavior which I thought was menopause related. She'd constantly be complaining about how hot it was (hot flashes) even though I was freezing my ass off! Then she'd have these "huge mood swings" and I'd suggest she see a Dr. because I thought it was menopause related or that her meds for depression and anxiety needed to be adjusted and she'd just get pissed at me and resentful of me and that I think is how we found ourselves in our present sitch.

Since she was basically ignoring me and my observations of her behavior I too began to grow resentful and that probably showed in my behavior towards her. Then you add in the mix the OM who was never present during her mood swings and he comes across as this wonderful, caring individual and I'm just this resentful and resented husband who doesn't care.

And then it all begins to make sense! I am no longer qualified to be her husband. She is going through a MLC and I am to be cast aside for something better.

I find it telling that she is now able to recognize her mood swings for what they were. I am really bothered though that she hasn't been able to put the pieces together to see how maybe this is the catalyst that brought about our marital problems.

Sure there are other contributing factors to our problems; my selfish and controlling behavior as an example. Her lack of interest in speaking my love language as another. But I do believe that the menopause thing is the big elephant in the room.

Any thoughts?
Posted By: workinghardguy Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/27/12 03:46 AM
Quote:
It is clear that W struggles in this area.
According to your standards... judgmental much? And there's a fighting chance that's why she feels bad. You are helping because it doesn't meet your standards.

She lives there now... it's her standards. I know it's hard. It seems like each time I am at my W's place the kids are vegged out in front of the TV. Or if I ask them how their day/weekend was it's a lot about watching TV. I won't deny that it bugs me. But I also can't do anything about it... it's her house, her standards.

But it works both ways. Last week was crazy for me. On Friday I found myself very stressed because my living room and kitchen were a complete mess. I was packing for myself and my SS and had SAR gear, uniform parts, and all sorts of stuff strewn about. I was in a huge rush and did not have time to clean up. But I was stressed because my W was going to come over on Saturday to let the dog out. I worried how she would judge me and the house.

And then I stopped myself and realized it didn't matter. It's my house now and I can keep it how I want. I don't usually keep it like that, but in this case it had to be and if she looks down on me for it... so be it.

Her house, her standards. Your house, your standards.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/28/12 01:26 PM
I see your point WHG but I disagree that it is being judgmental because she is not meeting my standards. Case in point. I loaded the dishwasher before I left for Spain. 10 days later when I was cleaning up and loading the dishwasher, the dirty dishes that I had loaded previously were still in the DW. I know this because of how I load vs. how she loads. They were the same dirty dishes and even more had accumulated. So she wasn't getting to them and I was simply trying to help.

Now I get the point about not interfering in her life and how she lives. You and Busto and others have pounded that into my head. It is an area in which I still struggle. I will get there, eventually.

===========================

Wanted to share something I learned/realized during my IC session yesterday. We were talking about validation and how it works and how people define it, or at least how I define it.

My C told me that validation which often takes the form of verbal acknowledgement of the other persons point of view, can also be reflected in our actions. So for example, when my W expresses a desire for me to not help with the dishes because it makes her feel bad or inadequate or whatever, then by adhering to her wishes, I am in fact validating her. And I would be validating her through actions that would be just as effective as if I were to say to her, you are right W, I shouldn't be cleaning up and I can see how it could make you feel bad, etc.

So the point here is that for someone like me who has a difficult time with verbal validation, validation through actions are also effective. And if we can validate both verbally and through actions, the combination can be quite powerful.

Hopefully this is helpful for others who struggle like I do in this area.
Posted By: nhmom Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/28/12 01:51 PM
Thanks for sharing this, 2.

I, too, struggle with verbal validation. You're right about the positive results of combining verbal validation with validation through actions.

Btw, to get back to the dirty dishes issue and your W feeling bad for not keeping up. How about recruiting your S's to help out with that. Your W could probably use the extra help with the household (and she's making it clear that she doesn't want the help to come from you), and it could also teach your S's responsibility.

The hard part would be suggesting it to your W without making it sound like you don't think she's doing enough. Maybe put the focus on the kids and how you think it's important for them to start doing chores, etc....it's all for the kid's sake. Maybe say that you noticed your friend's kids doing this and that, and you think that it's a good idea for your S's to try it as well.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/29/12 01:11 AM
I can't do this anymore! I really can't!

========================

When my W has a C who says things like:

"Divorce is not only a healthy choice for you, but also a healthy choice for 2TP and the kids"

"You don't have to make any decisions or have any conversations today"


What other choice do I have but to throw in the towel? I can't intervene because I am the LBS who has a vested interest in a different outcome. I have no credibility when it comes to suggesting she see a different C because I am the LBS. I can't even have a discussion about this topic because of my W's medical condition. So what other choice do I have?

I suppose I can hang on and continue to support my W during her rehabilitation, all the while knowing that she will move forward with D when she is healed.

Or I could drop the rope today and feel guilty for the rest of my life for abandoning my W during this medical crisis of hers.

I just can't take this stress any longer!

=======================

My W went to see her C today and when she returned she looked pretty bummed out. She said she wasn't feeling good and cancelled for a second time, lunch with an acquaintance who has shown considerable concern about my W's health.

We got to talking and she is just really tired and confused all the time. We both think that the medication she is on (beta blockers and ace inhibitors) is what's causing her to experience these symptoms. She is also very emotional and can't really pinpoint what brings on the emotions.

I asked her if she thought maybe she should be seeing a psychiatrist or different C to help her through this rough period in her life. She says no, her C has a few Dr. friends who she has been sharing information about my W's condition with and they seem to think these symptoms are normal based upon what has occurred.

As we were talking I asked her about her text to me while I was in Spain, The one where she was asking me to tell her about everything related to her hospital stay and medical condition. She said that she is just now starting to realize just how sick she was and needs to understand everything about the ordeal.

She said her C was wondering if there might be some things I was holding back from telling her. WTF!?! Why would I hold anything back related to her health and why would she even think that?

So we continued to talk and I validated as best as I could where appropriate. She tells me she needs a massage, wants to smell the scents and needs to feel hands kneading her muscles. Sensing an opportunity to flirt a little, I offer to give her a massage but disclose that I am not nearly as good as a professional masseuse but my rates are low. wink She smiled and said she might consider it and then we moved on to other topics.

We talked about how tired she is and I asked her very specifically; "I know I have told you I am willing to help you in any way you need, but is there anything specific you could use help with?" She then asked if I would pick S10 up from school every day and if I would handle taking the kids to their sporting practices each week. I said I would and she seemed pleased.

I then offered to bring her lunch which she accepted and that was the end of the conversation.

=======================

So W is not really in any condition to have deep conversations about our R, yet she has conversations with her C who seems to be pushing her towards a D and claiming how "healthy" it would be for everyone.

When W first dropped the bomb but before I moved out, we were both miserable, you could almost see the tension in the air, and my W was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. If you read back to my early posts you'll see what I am saying to be true.

Today however with the passage of time, the anger and resentment seems to have faded...almost entirely. We get along, we don't fight, we cooperate, we laugh, we go to kids sporting events together, we share meals on occasion, etc. Does any of this sound like we need a "healthy dose of divorce?"

I really think that my W's C is steering her in the wrong direction. And there isn't a damn thing I can do about it!

I am so lost and I really don't think I can do this anymore!
Posted By: workinghardguy Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/29/12 02:11 AM
Quote:
Today however with the passage of time, the anger and resentment seems to have faded...almost entirely. We get along, we don't fight, we cooperate, we laugh, we go to kids sporting events together, we share meals on occasion, etc. Does any of this sound like we need a "healthy dose of divorce?"
Take a deep breath 2TP... I know it's crazy and maddening. What do you want? And how do you get there? And be honest answering those questions. That will lead you.

If you most want your M back and your family back together then you keep sticking it out. If you most want to end the craziness and gain some consistency then you do what you have to.

I empathize with your quote above. It sounds identical to my W and I. After my S's birthday party my MIL came up to me and said "this is the strangest divorce I've ever seen". Yeah, tell me about it. Actually, tell your daughter about it, would ya? smile

And I don't know if it's normal... I mean there are plenty of stories on here where the STBX goes scorched earth or just disappears completely. Perhaps it's related to their MLC? I don't know, but it is maddening.
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/29/12 03:40 PM
Feeling the same way 2. My w has pulled back from me even further recently. We HAVE to let them go and let them live their lives.

It's unfathomable that they would give up on us and our kids as a family but that is what they are choosing. We can only continue being who we are and you are a great man.

So sorry buddy!!
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/30/12 02:57 PM
I suppose I can hang on and continue to support my W during her rehabilitation, all the while knowing that she will move forward with D when she is healed.

Or I could drop the rope today and feel guilty for the rest of my life for abandoning my W during this medical crisis of hers.


2pac, I get this too. Everybody, literally everbody except y'all, tells me this. They do not know your heart. They can step back and objectively tell you what your choices should be. Only you know how you feel bro. From my perspective the texts you received last week are telling...
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/30/12 02:58 PM
...pulling back is good. It does not mean you love your wife any less.

lets see if we can keep you on the front page for awhile.
Posted By: Sad in WI Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/30/12 03:27 PM
Must be something in the air. W and I were getting closer, she then tells me she started to think about the bad times and has pulled herself away from me.

Unless you are living this noone really can understand the pain this causes. I know that if I stopped trying at this point I would not be able to live with myself. Keep taking it day by day.
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/30/12 03:31 PM
and I were getting closer, she then tells me she started to think about the bad times and has pulled herself away from me.

Nothing wrong with that - its normal. I know it still stinks..
Posted By: rickb89 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/30/12 03:31 PM
2Pac - when the W has a medical conditon, and I put my W in that category too, all your instincts will come out as if there were no trouble in the M.

You have to be very careful about not letting those feelings cause you to start pursuing again, and it is pursuing. I know, I did it for a year. It's an inhuman task to drop the rope, let go, all the metaphors that describe this. The WAS pursuit - o - radar is always on. They will know it. No easy way about it other than to just do it, let go. There will come a time when you can do that.

It's not a rejection of your M vows. By letting her go, you are doing the most loving thing you could ever do for her, as hard as it is. By becoming a better you, and by raising your two fine young cannibals you are also honoring your vows. You're not being weak at all this way.
Posted By: Sad in WI Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/30/12 03:39 PM
Grumpy,

How do you handle this when W brings it up? Listen and walk away? My W is convinced that my 180's are a temporary thing to get her to stay.

SIW
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/30/12 03:49 PM
How do you handle this when W brings it up? Listen and walk away? My W is convinced that my 180's are a temporary thing to get her to stay.

Validate...do not offer excuses. She is scared and she will be scared until she isn't. Just keep being the best "you" that you can. Patience...

learn from my mistakes, lol..
Posted By: Sad in WI Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/30/12 03:52 PM
GM,

Thank you, I have been doing that. Regardless of what happens I think I will be left with more patience than I have ever had.

SIW
Posted By: Valeska19 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/30/12 04:45 PM
Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
I can't do this anymore! I really can't!

========================

When my W has a C who says things like:

"Divorce is not only a healthy choice for you, but also a healthy choice for 2TP and the kids"

"You don't have to make any decisions or have any conversations today"


What other choice do I have but to throw in the towel? I can't intervene because I am the LBS who has a vested interest in a different outcome. I have no credibility when it comes to suggesting she see a different C because I am the LBS. I can't even have a discussion about this topic because of my W's medical condition. So what other choice do I have?


You prove her C wrong.. not by words but by actions. You talk.. alot. I had that problem too.. but you can't talk your wife in or out of anything.. talking won't solve the problems.

So show her that D is not a healthy choice! How do you do that? What's your gameplan?


Originally Posted By: 2thepoint

I suppose I can hang on and continue to support my W during her rehabilitation, all the while knowing that she will move forward with D when she is healed.


Why? I mean you have asked her how you can help.. but I don't really see her asking to much. She's not asking you to support her, yet here you are...

Originally Posted By: 2thepoint

Or I could drop the rope today and feel guilty for the rest of my life for abandoning my W during this medical crisis of hers.



I understand this feeling and it took me a long time to see past my own fog.

You're not abandoning your w... because she isn't asking you to be there.

You need to let her live her own life, you need to let her feel her the consequences (both good and bad) of her actions.

and if you TRULY feel guilty.. than be there for her.. and put the D aside.. COMPLETELY.

Her health and your D have nothing to do with one another. They are separate.. treat them as such.


Originally Posted By: 2thepoint

My W went to see her C today and when she returned she looked pretty bummed out. She said she wasn't feeling good and cancelled for a second time, lunch with an acquaintance who has shown considerable concern about my W's health.

We got to talking and she is just really tired and confused all the time. We both think that the medication she is on (beta blockers and ace inhibitors) is what's causing her to experience these symptoms. She is also very emotional and can't really pinpoint what brings on the emotions.

I asked her if she thought maybe she should be seeing a psychiatrist or different C to help her through this rough period in her life. She says no, her C has a few Dr. friends who she has been sharing information about my W's condition with and they seem to think these symptoms are normal based upon what has occurred.

As we were talking I asked her about her text to me while I was in Spain, The one where she was asking me to tell her about everything related to her hospital stay and medical condition. She said that she is just now starting to realize just how sick she was and needs to understand everything about the ordeal.

She said her C was wondering if there might be some things I was holding back from telling her. WTF!?! Why would I hold anything back related to her health and why would she even think that?

So we continued to talk and I validated as best as I could where appropriate. She tells me she needs a massage, wants to smell the scents and needs to feel hands kneading her muscles. Sensing an opportunity to flirt a little, I offer to give her a massage but disclose that I am not nearly as good as a professional masseuse but my rates are low. wink She smiled and said she might consider it and then we moved on to other topics.

We talked about how tired she is and I asked her very specifically; "I know I have told you I am willing to help you in any way you need, but is there anything specific you could use help with?" She then asked if I would pick S10 up from school every day and if I would handle taking the kids to their sporting practices each week. I said I would and she seemed pleased.

I then offered to bring her lunch which she accepted and that was the end of the conversation.

=======================

So W is not really in any condition to have deep conversations about our R, yet she has conversations with her C who seems to be pushing her towards a D and claiming how "healthy" it would be for everyone.

When W first dropped the bomb but before I moved out, we were both miserable, you could almost see the tension in the air, and my W was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. If you read back to my early posts you'll see what I am saying to be true.

Today however with the passage of time, the anger and resentment seems to have faded...almost entirely. We get along, we don't fight, we cooperate, we laugh, we go to kids sporting events together, we share meals on occasion, etc. Does any of this sound like we need a "healthy dose of divorce?"

I really think that my W's C is steering her in the wrong direction. And there isn't a damn thing I can do about it!

I am so lost and I really don't think I can do this anymore!


I still see pursuit here. I still see you trying to "fix" the situation.

And fixing is tiresome.. especially when you are hitting a wall.

Shine that spotlight back on you 2. Busto gave you alot to think about before you left for Spain.

How can you move forward. Not with your w or your m, but with improving yourself and becoming a man that only a fool would leave?

((( )))
Posted By: Mach1 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/30/12 04:56 PM
Originally Posted By: 2
I suppose I can hang on and continue to support my W during her rehabilitation, all the while knowing that she will move forward with D when she is healed.

Or I could drop the rope today and feel guilty for the rest of my life for abandoning my W during this medical crisis of hers.


It's not the caring part that does you in. It is the expectations that you place on what you do, that does you in.

I think you are still expecting her to change, based on what you do today.

In actuality, it is what you consistently do today, that can slowly change her mind. With each today, it gives you hope of the future, not a promise of the future.

The counselor ? There is nothing you can do about it. That is her choice, and you should honor it.

Any attempt to change that would be viewed as manipulative on your part.

Would you rather have her choose to come home ? Or feel she has to come home....

To me, that is you trying to control the outcome, through her counselor.


The reason you are feeling worn out, is because you are running on emotion again.

With time, even the hardest of stone can wear when it is rubbed against itself. The same thing happens when you rub your emotions against hers.

Nobody is telling you that you have to stop loving your wife. Nobody is telling you that you have to give up on your dream of a future with her.

Dude, you have been DBing for ..7 ? months ????

You didn't get to this place overnight, and you aren't going to get out of it overnight.

You aren't going to talk your way out of anything that you acted your way into.....

You are looking too far into the future , and expecting this to be a guarantee.

The only guarantee I can make you, is that in a few years, this will all be over for you....one way or another. And that you will be a Father , and a man that is capable of being a loving partner. A man that makes great decisions, and has the self awareness to allow his partner to find their way in life. So that they can walk beside you...not in front, or behind you.

Ask any woman if she would like that....

It is your call if you are ready to hang 'em up. I can't do anything about that.

This song , by The Byrds, kept me propped up through some pretty rough nights......

And I hope you can gain something as well....

The words are adapted from the book of Ecclesiastes

To everything, turn, turn, turn.
There is a season, turn, turn, turn.
And a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to be born, a time to die.
A time to plant, a time to reap.
A time to kill, a time to heal.
A time to laugh, a time to weep.

To everything, turn, turn, turn.
There is a season, turn, turn, turn.
And a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to build up, a time to break down.
A time to dance, a time to mourn.
A time to cast away stones.
A time to gather stones together.

To everything, turn, turn, turn.
There is a season, turn, turn, turn.
And a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time of love, a time of hate.
A time of war, a time of peace.
A time you may embrace.
A time to refrain from embracing.

To everything, turn, turn, turn.
There is a season, turn, turn, turn.
And a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to gain, a time to lose.
A time to rend, a time to sow.
A time for love, a time for hate.
A time for peace, I swear it's not too late
Posted By: Mach1 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/30/12 04:57 PM
And what Val said too....^^^^^

( Didn't mean to cover you up Val..)
Posted By: rickb89 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/30/12 05:19 PM
T2 - it should be mandatory for all of us to read these two posts (Val & Mach) every day!
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/30/12 05:46 PM
Agreed^^^^^
Posted By: bustorama Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/31/12 02:51 PM
2tp,

I double ditto the above as well (Rick, Valeska, Mach and sias's ditto). And re-read some of our exchanges that began with my msgs to you ca. 3/11. You are still (or again) pursuing in trying to sway (control) your W's mindset. "Giving" with the expectation that she may change her mind or see the new 2pac. It is emotionally exhausting and unhealthy for both of you to do so.

And think back to what your C told you (and what I've been trying to tell you). When you do actions things contrary to your W's stated or implicit wishes, you are invalidating her. All of your acts of pursuit are invalidating your W's stated wish not to be with you as a married couple. Do you really want to keep invalidating her? You respect her most by accepting her decision to be apart from you at face value. It is the most loving and selfless thing to do.

Re: the C -- you can't control what the C says or does, and I know it [censored] to hear those sorts of things. I heard similar. In fact, I remember my W relating to me how her C told her in these words, YOU HAVE TO GET OUT OF THAT TOXIC ENVIRONMENT WITH YOUR H. IT IS SO UNHEALTHY FOR BOTH OF YOU TO BE THERE. YOU NEED TO MOVE OUT **NOW**, WHAT IS TAKING YOU SO LONG? YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN MOVED OUT WEEKS AGO. This was early in our sitch (just after the bomb and in the month before she moved out).

My W's C was TOTALLY validating how my W felt -- that she needed to get away from her H, that I was the source of her misery. And the toxic environment she was referring to was me trying to influence my W to stay, through various acts of pursuit, giving, offers, melty man. She was indubitably on my W's side (and I was not).

I saw my W's C as "the enemy" and if I could control who she was seeing as C, perhaps things might be better. Luckily, I addressed my anxiety about this (which is what is the real issue now with you 2pac) instead of trying to act on it. One day, her C told me to give my W space (I was in the waiting room to see my own C), to GIVE HER ALL THE SPACE SHE NEEDED and that she was "pulling for each of us." I was very confused to hear this based on what my W had told me, and I thought I was giving her all kinds of space at that time, not calling her, etc.. When, in reality, I was still pursuing in my actions when I did see her, in "acts of service", "giving", etc.

It was when I genuinely gave my W ALL THE SPACE she was asking for that my W really could begin to heal and view how life without Busto might be and whether that was what she truly wanted. Perhaps it is in your case, perhaps not.

I saw my W's old C in the waiting room of the office earlier this week while I was dropping off my D6 for a therapy session (D6 is resolving some anxiety issues that arose from our separation). The C gave me a huge hug and said how happy she was that we had come back together, that we each had needed space to heal and grow.

Your W's C might not be coming from this place, but I would say that the current dynamic is not healthy for either of you.
Posted By: labug Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/31/12 03:41 PM
2pac, sorry you had to feel the pain to spur these incredible posts. But what insight.

I will put these in my Words of Wisdom file.

Thanks to all who have contributed.
Posted By: ces67 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/31/12 03:42 PM
2, can't add any advice beyond what is here but I can offer my support. Those expectations of ours are seeded deep within us and it's hard to let them go.

I know you can stand strong. I know you can hold your head high and live the life you want. It's so very hard to see for ourselves sometimes because we are so engrained in our own sitch's. Sometimes we just need others to remind us of what we are capable of.

So this is my reminder to you, "I will fight for you. You need only be still.". Exodus 14:14

Hope you have some fun GAL this weekend,
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 03/31/12 06:33 PM
Great advice guys really. But I gonna sum it up. 2tp I will always be here for u but u are still doing the same things that got u here. You are more aware of your behaviors but you still practice them.

Let me see if I remember:
You know all the answers
You are smarter
You know best
they should do it your way
You must be in control

Did I leave anything out?
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 04/02/12 04:07 AM
I haven't felt like posting much lately but wanted to thank everyone who recently posted on my thread. I've read and considered each and every post and will respond in the next day or so.

Meanwhile..... a bag of kitchen trash has been sitting next to the garbage can in the kitchen for the past two days. I've walked by it a half dozen times and have not touched it! smile
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: Finding my way through the fog - 04/04/12 06:07 PM
I need to start a new thread and am considering doing so in a forum other than Newcomers. Having been at this for 7 months now, I'm thinking that Newcomers is no longer the best place for me to post. Better to give the newbies the attention they need and get from the high traffic Newcomers forum.

Any suggestions based upon my sitch, where I should start my new thread?
Posted By: rickb89 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 04/08/12 08:15 PM
I don't know that 7 months means you're not a newbie. Just thinking that maybe the life span of our sitches go on for a long time so maybe 7 mos is not that long. And what about the new readers who will benefit from reading your sitch? Now might be the time when your insights and posts are most valuable?
Posted By: hopeless in wa Re: Finding my way through the fog - 04/09/12 01:46 AM
I agree with Rick. Stay here, we need you!
Posted By: adinva Re: Finding my way through the fog - 04/09/12 02:56 AM
Well, I spent a lot of time initially in Newcomers, MLC, and WAS, until I realized WAS was for the one leaving, not the LBS. MLC didn't feel right to me. There's a lot of focus on the S in those sitches, and my sitch just didn't seem to fit. So I'm camped out in Newcomers until (when or if) I make it to piecing or D. Where were you thinking of going?
Posted By: BFloat Re: Finding my way through the fog - 04/09/12 03:08 AM
if they create a forum called oldies.. then i say.. i'm coming with you!
Posted By: labug Re: Finding my way through the fog - 04/09/12 03:03 PM
I think we should all move to Sex Starved Marriage, except for some notable exceptions.

You know who you are! And we are jealous! smile
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: Finding my way through the fog - 04/09/12 03:05 PM
LOL^^^^^^^
Posted By: rickb89 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 04/09/12 03:12 PM
Oldies - imagine graduating from newcomers to that. Here's your cap and noose for the ceremony.....
Posted By: breakdownbill Re: Finding my way through the fog - 04/09/12 03:16 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
I think we should all move to Sex Starved Marriage, except for some notable exceptions.

You know who you are! And we are jealous! smile


Nah... You weren't talking about me where ya Bug? LOL ;-)
Posted By: rickb89 Re: Finding my way through the fog - 04/09/12 03:16 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
I think we should all move to Sex Starved Marriage, except for some notable exceptions.

You know who you are! And we are jealous! smile


Ha ha...theres' one guy we know who was so happy he "scored" that he posted a video song about "scoring". That struck me as so funny! How the hell did it come it this?

Whenever that subject comes up all I can hear is Beavis and Butthead in my mind and that makes it all the more funnier for me.
Posted By: RoRoinMD Re: Finding my way through the fog - 04/09/12 03:20 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
I think we should all move to Sex Starved Marriage, except for some notable exceptions.

You know who you are! And we are jealous! smile


LOL! At least that part of the M had started working right. After the past few weeks, though, I think I might need to move there too.
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