Here's the link to my last thread. Starting thread #4 now.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2225599#Post2225599Family leaves for spring break vacation to see family & friends today. It may be mind-reading but it appears W made these plans last minute to make sure I did not go with them.
I gave the kids big hugs last night since I leave for work before they get up. W is picking them up from school to leave for the week.
I left the kids notes for them to see this morning telling them to have fun and that I loved them. Always try and draw funny pictures each time I do this as well (the funny part being that I'm a lousy artist I suppose).
Also left a note for my W. Since today is the date of her mom's death 26 years ago, I wanted to at least let her know that I remembered and was thinking of her.
I can't remember exactly what I wrote but it was along the lines of thinking of her especially over the next few days. Was glad she was able to get away and enjoy herself. Acknowledged the terrible loss she experienced to lose her mom at 16.
Also told her that despite what is going on between us, she is a fantastic mom and I fully believe her mom would be very proud of her.
Threw caution to the wind and signed it "love, [me].."
No expectations with this note, just acknowledging the sadness she is feeling this weekend.
As far as the title (in case anyone is wondering)... I've reading through "No More Mr. Nice Guy". Lots of insight to my own behaviors so I am working to kill off the negative elements of a nice guy in my life and live in a way that is far more vibrant.
"As far as the title (in case anyone is wondering)... I've reading through "No More Mr. Nice Guy". Lots of insight to my own behaviors so I am working to kill off the negative elements of a nice guy in my life and live in a way that is far more vibrant."
Thanks for the clarification, Mr Nice Guy. I was getting a little worried. The title of your new thread was a little ominous.
BTW, I like that last part, "live in a way that is far more vibrant."
Go get em, tiger!
Yeah, I guess a title like that does require some clarification. Its a good thing in my opinion.
Great book. Helped me a bunch too.
Great book. Helped me a bunch too.
So when to I get to the point where I'm beating up drunks in the evening??
Great book. Helped me a bunch too.
So when to I get to the point where I'm beating up drunks in the evening??
Well it's Friday so tonight may be a good start.
La I still don't what killing hobos is? Gonna have to ask.
Ces I have not read the book but was told that there is a an explanation of how a nice guy is actually passive/aggressive. I guess there is conflict/avoidant aspect to being a nice guy. Guess I am going to order it. Keep up the good work buddy
63, ask Grmpy, it's his term. I don't understand it either.
So here's some proof that I need to do better at GAL...
Family left today. This begins Spring Break in my area. All my friends are married people and are either gone or soon to be gone.
I really have nothing to do tonight and not sure who I would call to do anything. The first night of my family leaving is always the worst. The house is just too quiet and I'm not sure what to do with myself.
I've got a few things lined up for tomorrow, errands and maybe an afternoon road trip if I feel like spending the money on gas.
Tonight may be my guy movie night. Also, I can make a list of things to do this week to keep me busy. Any suggestions???
Beautiful day today. Blue skies & low 60's.
My first night alone consisted of 2 movies, Dulce de Leche ice cream and keeping up with friends online! Watched Killers Elite and the Rum Diaries. both OK, but glad I rented them and didn't pay the theater price.
W & kids made it to my parents last night. For some reason when I'm not with them driving, one of the kids typically gets car sick. Since I didn't know what time they left town and I figured I have a right to know how my kids are doing, I called to check in around 8:30pm. That's when I found out D was throwing up.
Today I got up and took the dog to the vet for a check up & all is good. Called my kids to say "hi" and let D know her pup was in good shape. W talked to me for a bit and was relieved to hear our dog was good as she was worried about heartworms....
Kids were playing scrabble with my parents and sounded good. I know my parents LOVE having the kids there. Mom's chemo is going great and she's actually feeling really good so that along with having her 2 youngest grandkids to visit with has to be making for a really good weekend.
Actually mowed my grass today and put down some weed killer. For the rest of the day, I just need to get out and be away from this quite house. Will come back later and read some more and start putting together a budget.
I am determined to enjoy my week and be productive.
mid week update:
W and kids have been gone since Friday. They spent the first part of their week at my parents house. My parents had a great visit with the kids and said my W was very talkative and engaging with them. My parents know we are struggling so I can be thankful that my W can be kind enough to let the kids visit with with my folks and not make an issue of it.
W left Monday and went to her foster parents with the kids and that's where they are now. They will leave tomorrow and drive back to our former home town and will spend the rest of the week with her friends. She didn't tell me but I'm pretty sure she is staying with her friend who is the wife of the OM.
I must be detaching at some level because I don't let it bother me near as much as I use to. I do hope that if anything is going on, that her friend discovers it and W has to deal with the fall out. I do believe there is some type of emotional attachment to the "idea" of OM but W seems far more focused on the friendship with the wife.
I finished "No More Mr. Nice Guy" tonight. Now I need to go back, re-read it and spend time with the activities at a deeper level. I caught myself many times saying "yeah, but I'm not really that bad...." For me, this is another level of excuses to overlook the things I need to look at more deeply so I am.
Not much GAL stuff this week. I've watched movies, read, worked out and got a decent amount of sleep. I am planning on going out with a friend this Friday.
I've talked with the kids each day. They're not much for talking on the phone but I make sure they hear me say "I love you". My W and I say maybe 2 or 3 sentences to each other and that's it. That has to change somehow. This is never going to get better if we don't start talking about something.
Still to do this week: Make a budget, more working out, deeper dive on the book activities and find some fun things to do this weekend.
So today had some fantastic personal positives. I was approached about a job internally back in December and then it just cooled off and dragged on. I ended up with an impromptu interview with our CIO on Monday. Today I got a job offer but not the one I had originally been approached about. This one is even better! And to top it off, I had my mental idea of potential salary increases ranging from "acceptable", to "possible" to "not really but it would be awesome". Well the offer ended actually OVER the "awesome" level! This will be a great step to getting out of debt and gaining some financial freedom for my family. Very excited about this opportunity.
Called and told my W the news. She congratulated me and was pleasant but I sensed our reality of the emotional distance she has from my life.
I had to check myself quickly. Here I had fantastic news and after speaking to her, my thoughts started drifting towards "maybe she thinks she can get a decent settlement out of divorce now." Yep, my mind went there but I stopped it quickly. This was great news and I was going to enjoy it with people who would celebrate with me. So that's what I did and I feel much better about it.
I am doing what I need to do for me and my family and I feel good about it. Her response or reaction to this great news is her deal not mine (I might have to say that to myself a few more times but it is sinking in).
Dulce de Leche ice cream...my kinda dessert
Congrats on the job and on the "OVER the awesome" raise!!! Good things happen to those who wait! I'm sure with all the stuff happening it's nice to get good news and helps quite a bit with self-confidence.
Ouch...your W staying at her friend's who is also the wife of OM. Are they still together? Anyway, good for you for not letting it bother you. She's digging her own hole.
Sounds like you had a great day overall!
Congrats on the job, ces! I totally sympathise with you about getting out of debt. I could use a windfall right about now, too.
I can very much see myself in your position - if everyone left my house for a week, what would I do? Probably hang around the house, and keep myself busy - but alone. I'd play the guitar (which I perpetually suck at). I'd watch TV. I'd make a computer game. Hang out on facebook. Clean the attic. Finally fix the dryer (only works when it's at a 45 degree angle from the wall...what?) clean the garage.
What I would not do is be with friends who understand me and understand my commitment to my awful marriage. I don't have those.
If I didn't have to work and I had a little extra money, I might decide to go camping as deep in the woods as I could get.
Maybe we should both work a little harder to get some meaningful human contact in our lives.
NH - I'm not too big on sweets but that ice cream is my 'go to' when a craving hits...
yeah W is there with the kids. OM & friend are married still and have their own business togehter. They seem happy the times I've seen them. I called a while ago to tell the kids good night. They both sounded bored and said their mom was shopping with her friend. I really do think that whatever does exist with OM is in the past and its just an escape fantasy for my W at this point. Her friendship with this lady seems pretty tight. I'm done giving it my energy.
AT - I actualy did go to a movie theater to see a movie. I asked a buddy to go but he had a sick kid he was taking care of. But we are going out Friday to celebrate my new job! But the week nights are kind of hard to find stuff to do. I have called & e-mailed with some friends who live further away and keep in touch that way. But plenty of room for improvement in the GAL domain. With the pay bump, that will make it a bit easier too.
I definitely want to do some more travelling, even if its short day trips for a while to keep costs down.
I'm thinking maybe I should find one of these "Men's groups" the nice guy book talks about.
ces, very cool on the over the "awesome" raise.
You have become so much stronger in the last couple of months.
Do you feel it?
I was just looking over your sig -
"Same roof, different rooms
Marriage in limbo. Not sure what direction we're going."
I know it's not fun and it's been going on too long. But I would do terrible and crazy things to get to there from where I am now. I still see a lot of hope for your family.
It sounds like your wife is barely alive and in a lot of pain. I don't know what to say about that. Maybe she can find her way though this and find out she has a loving family around her.
AT - I've looked too but there aren't any in my areas. Hope you can find out. I think it would be very helpful. Right now I'm just working with a few close friends so they know what I'm working on.
I do see hope for us as well. I started my 2nd post with a list of hopeful signs. Those still exist. The detaching process seems like a yo-yo for me. As I feel a detachment working, something yanks me back up close again before I can drop away. Its almost always my own expectations that do it so again, its a process of letting go of those expectations and living my life.
Bug - Thank you! I do feel stronger and more internal peace about what I'm doing and why. Along with this is still a sadness for the pain my W is dealing with (or not dealing with from my perspective). I also struggle with anger & resentment based upon my expectations of wanting her to move forward with me. I still deal with that but am working through it. I finally bought me the Al Anon book and am reading through it daily.
I'm also fortunate in that my W functions very well for the most part. She is very engaged with the kids and continues to be a great mom to them. There are differences in how she parents now and I disagree with some of the examples she is setting without realizing she is doing it but then I'm probably doing that do some degree as well. She is also very "active" so to speak with her friends and presents herself as a happy & fun person.
Looking back, I realize how often I spend time & energy looking at how my W acts and deals with things and how I let that effect me. I'm working on the conscious effort to step away from that and look at how I am acting, responding and managing my life. It hurts deeply to see my W live a life that has little to no room for me but I can't control that. And its no reason for me to stop living the way I want to.
Along with that "No More Mr. Nice Guy" I can see where I've put the blame on all sorts of things for not living the life I want. I'm changing that for myself and to pass on a better example for my kids.
And on a separate note, the "congrats" e-mails are starting to show up here at work so I'm going to enjoy them!!
Looking back, I realize how often I spend time & energy looking at how my W acts and deals with things and how I let that effect me. I'm working on the conscious effort to step away from that and look at how I am acting, responding and managing my life. It hurts deeply to see my W live a life that has little to no room for me but I can't control that. And its no reason for me to stop living the way I want to.
Along with that "No More Mr. Nice Guy" I can see where I've put the blame on all sorts of things for not living the life I want. I'm changing that for myself and to pass on a better example for my kids.
Man I really feel you ^^^^. It is a struggle for me to not place so much energy & worth into the hands of my WAS. Slowly but surely we will get there.
Congrats on the job, that's awesome!!!!
Looking back, I realize how often I spend time & energy looking at how my W acts and deals with things and how I let that effect me. I'm working on the conscious effort to step away from that and look at how I am acting, responding and managing my life. It hurts deeply to see my W live a life that has little to no room for me but I can't control that. And its no reason for me to stop living the way I want to.
Along with that "No More Mr. Nice Guy" I can see where I've put the blame on all sorts of things for not living the life I want. I'm changing that for myself and to pass on a better example for my kids.
Your lips to God's ears!
Ces - Congratulations on the new job! So when are you going to start practicing yoga?
2 - The class at work is offered on Wednesdays. Also, I found a "beginner's DVD here at the house and put it in to try it last night but couldn't get it to work. Going to try again tonight just to get an idea of it before I make a fool of myself in a class with my co-workers!
Labug - God knew it before I said it, he probably just gave a sigh of relief for me to finally realize it!
What is the name of the DVD?
Its called "Yoga: Conditioning for Weight Loss" by Gaiam. My W has a collection of all kinds of stuff she rotates through.
Since you asked I actually had to go get it so I'm plugging it in now to try!
OK, I started it and there is no way I can listen to that lady talk to me for 30 minutes or whatever long that thing is. I'll have to try something else....
OK, I started it and there is no way I can listen to that lady talk to me for 30 minutes or whatever long that thing is. I'll have to try something else....
LOL so hard!!!!
That's the way I feel about Delilah the radio show host. I'm sure you can find another yoga dvd.
Yeah Delilah is annoying!
My son use to LOVE to listen to Delilah at Christmas time. So very thankful he grew out of it!
Another good exercise in detachment. Called to tell my kids good night. Called my S13 phone. no answer. Called me W, no answer. Txt my W saying "have kids calle me when you get this" Any time they are out of time I at least speak to the kids at bedtime to say good night.
W responds that S is at a friends for the night and D is already asleep. I would have appreciated if W could have at least had D call me if she was going to bed. W is the only way I can reach my D when they travel. I'm use to not talking to my W when they travel, its rather typical. But its really bothers me that I didn't get to speak to my kids. Of course my S just needs to pay attention to his phone. That I'm use to.
OK, that's off my chest and I think I handled it well with W. When we talk again, I'll ask her to have the kids call when the time is good (given that I have no idea of their schedule).
who's delilah? there is one radio host i know named delilah but i don't think it's the same one if i'm on the west coast?
Deee li lah
The one I'm thinking of is syndicated. Requests and dedications.
i'm pretty sure it's the same one. she tells sappy stories. i think she has a daughter?
yeah, she's been on the radio for a long time and is syndicated all over the country. I have a nephew who can't stand her and he went to some show one time and turns out she was the hostess. He was so irritated.
it's frustrating when one can only reach one's kids through the WAS's phone - same situation here.
i struggled with those kinds of things too - for a long while i saw it as a control issue on H's part, but now i'm genuinely beginning to realize after all that reading about mlc's that he literally does NOT think about it - it simply doesn't occur to him.
i think when he has s with him, he is using so much extra energy trying to be "normal" that all these details are simply too much to handle
great job with detaching - i am doing that now with H - easy while he is on the other side of the world, but wonder what it will be like when he returns next month - that's when the true test starts... hope i can be as good at it as you by then:)
When we talk again, I'll ask her to have the kids call when the time is good (given that I have no idea of their schedule).
That's a good idea. You should tell your W what you would like to see happen when they are away. Asking to have your kids give you a quick call before they go to bed is not asking much. It has nothing to do with your M. Be prepared for a negative response, and if you get it, then assure W that you're doing this in the best interest of your and your kid's relationships. We all have some kind of expectations, even if it's kid related, and if we don't get what we want, it will upset us. Working on communicating with your W about issues like you describe should hopefully result in better communication overall, regardless of whether you will live a life with or without her.
What she said ^^^^^
We could only hope that the WAS could see that you are being a good dad by wanting to talk to your kids- therefore she wouldn't get upset at all.... But we all know that the WAS doesn't think like the rest of the world.
When I have the kids, I always text H if something funny happens or an issue strides. I'll also send him photos every once and a while of the boys (never myself) when they do something silly. Sometimes he responds, most of the time he doesn't. But, for me, I don't ever want to give the opportunity to say that I kept his kids from him. He's started doing the same for me when he has them- granted not as much.
When he's away from them, it makes me so frustrated that he doesn't call to say good night to them... I can't imagine not even talking to my kids for a whole day!
I think it was polite of you to. It demand a specific time to talk, instead you asked her for the best option. Hopefully she responds positively (as much as possible) to you. For your kids sake, I hope she does.
(((ces)))
i think when he has s with him, he is using so much extra energy trying to be "normal" that all these details are simply too much to handle
I think there's a lot of truth in this observation. I see it in my W. Granted she's trying to operate with three kids and herself so it's triple the stress. At the same time she's just not in place to manage herself well, much less three additional lives.
I've quickly realized that if I want something to happen I have to advocate for myself and communicate that. It's hard because it, be definition, requires interacting with my W in a manner I don't particularly want to. But it's either that or be left out of the equation. She can leave me out of her equation all she wants, but I'm not ok with being left out of my kids' equations.
CES - hope you're well in Elvisville. I read No More Mr Nice and found it very helpful. I was so hesitant to read it...thought it would be for wimps...and if any of it connected then well..you know.
Is there a Bikram yoga near you? Try this just once for me, and then let's talk!
Nite bro.
Thanks all. I did get to speak to my kids today. W kept her promise and D called me this morning around 10 my time. W didn't talk to me, just D. I called S and spoke to him. he said he'd somehow turned his ringer off.
This evening I tried to call both my W and S and neither answered. Sent TM to both asking to call me before bed. Neither did. Its disappointing. But as I said earlier, I'm too tired to give W's behavior more of my energy than I need too.
Zig- thanks for the perspective. W is very much "drowning" in some ways. When she is with her friends as she is now, its like an escape where she shuts out her problems and pretends all is fine. The reality is there is no room for me in that escape at this point. It is what it is.
NH & Rick - the Nice Guy book really talks a lot about stating my needs is a requirement. I've never done that well but I am learning to and this will be an opportunity to practice.
Purg - good reminder that W doesn't think normally anymore, at least her "normal" isn't what it use to be, thats for sure.
WHG - Its a weird thing because W is VERY involved with the kids. It feels like a battle to be included in anything these days were once I was welcomed. Now its like she arranges things to limit my ability to be part of it unless is a major thing like birthdays or holidays. I've started making plans for me and the kids do to stuff but need to do more of it to make sure I have time with them.
Rickb - I'll have to build up to the Bikram Yoga. But I'll look for it around here.
with my kids.. when H stated at the counseling session that he wanted out of the M, i suddenly shifted gears. i told him i wanted to have the kids every second weekend (because i wanted to have fun times w/ S as well since he is in school all week) and then also told H that i wanted the kids to call me when they were ready for bed on the nights when he had them.
after a couple of weekends of not having the kids, H really felt how much it hurt me to be away from the kids. there was also a week where S and D wanted to call H every night (because they were use to calling me). he seemed to enjoy the phone calls (which the kids initiated. i would have had them call if H had requested) because when they didn't, he would send a txt saying.. no call tonight? w/ a sad face.
i guess what i'm saying is that when it comes to the kids, you may have to step on W's toes and voice what you want. in the end, it will hurt more if you look back one day and regret that you didn't.
as for bikram's.. i went a couple of times years ago.. brutal!
((((( ))))) thought you might need one while the kids are away.
Thanks BF! Much needed and appreciated. They come home tomorrow.
I called again this morning. S said his phone died. He was heading to a friends house for the day and night.
W answered quickly and apologized. Said she didn't see the call until late and D was already asleep. Again, we just did this the night before. Goes to what Zig said, its just not in her brain. I think for my W, she is so elated to be hanging with her friends she is able to close out the thoughts of all the problems she has and doesn't want to deal with. Yeah, may be mind-reading but based upon a few conversations we've had, I'd say my theory is well supported.
I stayed cool and when W said that I just said, "OK, I just called to talk to D. So we spoke, exchanged our "I love you" and I hung up before W could get back on the phone. I told both kids I'd like them to call me before bed. We'll see. I also understand this is their last night of spring break, they're running around with friends and it may not happen. So I'll keep myself busy and doing what I want regardless.
Warm & sunny day today. My back yard is a jungle of weeds and I'm ignoring it to go do other things I want to do! (plus its a swampy mess from the storms).
CES - you can build up to Bikram while being there...just do what you can do and build up at your pace. Also, it doesn't matter how much of the pose you do. If you do even only 1%, but do it 100% correctly then you still get 100% of the medical benefit. Really not trying to push it on you, but did want you to know that you can start there and build it up as you go. The first time I went I thought I had died...but with time and patience you get used to it.
I find it helps me tremendously in my sitch.
Last night before family returns. Another night went by where I couldn't get ahold of the kids to say good night. Spoke to both of them earlier today but prefer to say goodnight too. S is at a freinds again and D is with W. I didn't even bother trying to call.
Stayed busy today. Got up and ran some errands. Also went into work to get my new office set up. That way I can get started right away on Monday. Really looking forward to the new job.
Also took the long way home and did some preliminary car shopping. My car is 11 years old so I'm going to need something maybe before the end of the year.
Not sure what to expect when W gets home. We have spoken less on this trip than we have any of her trips Typically we talk at least a little each day. This week, we barely spoke at all. And the fact that it was so hard to talk with the kids made it even worse.
Observation about myself. There are so many times I start to type something about my W and then stop. I find myself constantly wanting to complain about what she does, says, acts, etc. etc... It is very frustrating. Its hurtful. Its exhausting. But I also think I'm making it works by taking even more time to complain about it.
Ok, she's not acting at all how I wish she would. That's reality. I can't change it so back to what I want to do and be and stop giving my energy to complaining about how she is....
OK, just had to preach to myself a bit.
Rickb - If Bikram Yoga helps, then I gotta try it!
But I also think I'm making it works by taking even more time to complain about it.
"worse" not "works"...
CES - its a dilemma about whether venting or complaining is a good thing. On one hand you get to journal it which helps because it helps your mind to get around it, and it allows the rest of us to weigh in. OTOH, action in and of itself creates the kind of energy you need to move your life forward and to be more able to receive the answers.
That's why I was promoting the yoga, but it could be found in something as simple as just sitting around playing your guitar.
I need to be more aware of how I respond to interactions with my w. Last night was another night of not hearing from anyone. W and I have only spoken a few sentences to each other the entire 9 days they've been gone.
So this morning, the phone wakes me up a little after 7am. Its my W. She calls to tell me her travel plans for returning today. She explains S was at a friends, D ended up spending the night with friends at a hotel (Dance competition) and how she was collecting them this morning, watching a few more of the dances and having lunch before hitting the road.
I listened, said thanks and something along the lines of "safe travels". W even said she'd call later to let me know when they actually leave.
So my response. My brain struggles between being frustrated at how casual she acts after not speaking for nearly a week and having trouble even getting ahold of my kids. On the other hand, I also realize that the fact that she called, was pleasant and made me aware of her plans could be seen as a positive.
I was casual in the conversation but wish I would have said "thanks for calling" or something along those lines to sort of reward the behavior I like. Maybe a missed opportunity but at least I should be able to recognize it better next time.
None of this is easy CES. The tighter we hold on the harder each little interaction is.
Can you speak to your kids directly and come to an understanding on phone comnunication?
I would ask W, "Do you think it is important for the kids and I to have a phone call on nights when they are out of town?".
She probably doesn't, or she would have made it easier. Depending on her attitude though, she may have been spreading those feelings to the kids. That would bother me. The issues you've had with D9 unable to tell you that she loves you when W is in the room. I would mention it. I would want to make it clear to W that she can have loads of space, but you won't have your relationships with your kids undermined by her attitude.
Is that shirt still hanging up in the bathroom, ces?
you're welcome ces:)
When she is with her friends as she is now, its like an escape where she shuts out her problems and pretends all is fine.
that's the same with H.
in one conversation a couple of months ago (when he was all emotional and telling me how conflicted he was and in the next breathe telling me how GOOD this was for him and how happy he was) - i pointed out to him that he didn't seem too happy even though he was insisting that he was great.
his answer puzzled and sort of shocked me too - he said very sadly and forlornly: "i'm only like this around you - if you saw me otherwise, you'd be amazed how happy and great i am doing"
i suppose every time he looks at me it hits home what he's doing and he's miserable, but when he's away he can shut his mind so completely for the most part that he really does feel he is wonderfully free and easy.
i suppose your wife, on the trip, can do that even more easily. also - just to help you not get so irate about it, when one is on a trip, it IS rather easy to put home stuff out of one's mind, and in her case and my H's , it is probably a massive relief,
i suppose we should be extremely compassionate and wish them those breaks, because , frankly they are feeling so UTTERLY shitty every time they let themselves think about it, that to wish them that break and some ease of mind is the ultimate compassionate act on our parts.
I've gone on a couple of trips since the bomb and it was very different. I was able to more completely put all the drama out of my mind without really trying. All the familiar places and other triggers weren't there. I was around different people, hearing different stories.
But then coming home was difficult.
AT - my W put the t-shirt away before she left. We'll see if it comes back out or not. Not looking forward to addressing it but then that tells me I really need to for my own sake.
Zig- Thanks again for the perspective. I know my W is not happy in our new home. Regardless of how I feel about her lack of trying to make this a new home and engaging, the reality is she has chosen not to and when she is back with her friends, its like you say, she can focus just on what she likes to do. I've seen the same thing your H said. She is happy and active when she's away from me and with her old group of friends.
LaBug - as far as coming home, the family got home a little after 9. W spent about 5 minutes giving baby talk to the dog and I only got a "hi" after I said it first. But I still smiled when I said it. It was great to see the kids and give them hugs.
The time when W gets back is always rough so we'll see how the week goes. I started my new job today so I'll keep busy with my life and plan to go to Al Anon meeting tomorrow night.
I'd like to take a trip with just me and the kids bu tnot sure what my motives are there. Yes, I'd enjoy the time with just me and the kids but feel it may be a bit vindictive of me not to include my W on purpose.
You don't have to be vindictive. You can make a plan for you and your kids. It might be interesting to see if W waits for an invitation or acts like it doesn't bug her.
CES - last summer I agonized over taking W on the family vacation. She had already alienated her kids and it was very hard for me to round everyone up for this.
I wished I hadn't asked her to go. Bringing a WAW on a family vacation really sukkks. I know we are supposed to leave the road home paved and I convinced myself that this would be part of doing that. She spent every night on the phone w/ OM. Don't know if there's an OM in your sitch though. Hope not.
The thing is that my wife is still really good with the kids. They know things aren't great but in general the kids lives have not changed all that much. The both get love and attention from both parents. And since we don't talk much the kids don't see us argue either. We still do some family things just not too often.
AT. I know that I don't have to be vindictive but if I'm honest with myself that is my motivation right now. That's not a place where I want my decisions to come from.
Still no t-shirt in sight but we shall see...
"but if I'm honest with myself that is my motivation right now. "
if you recognize that, and if you have time to still decide - maybe you could try to work on what the emotions are behind that feeling and figure them out so that whatever you decide you do from a place of love rather than anger and other negative emotions.
remember, we have the choice to take the high road every time - we keep talking about how our WAS's are doing so much stuff that will be so hard for them to come back from. let's make sure that each and everything we do, we will be really proud of later
i'm sure after you think on it a bit, you will feel really good about what you decide
I know that I don't have to be vindictive but if I'm honest with myself that is my motivation right now. That's not a place where I want my decisions to come from.
ces, I have to keep this on my mental dashboard at all times.
Went to al anon again tonight. One of those deals where I made myself go but very glad I did. Big take away is that I am still working through the resentment.
I have been very blessed with the new job and am taking steps to get myself organized financially. But I am still very angry with my w for all the spending she has done to contribute to the debt and still has made no effort to contribute to helping with her new job. She is still traveling when she wants and buying herself new clothes that she can't afford.
In one sense it is an expectation of mine that she would show responsibility for her actions. In another sense I don't see why I should pay for the debt of her spending. Problem is the cards are in my name so it's my credit if they don't get paid. I can handle the payments. It's just a mental exercise I still go thru because of my resentment. First I recognize that is my issue. Now I work to let go and live my life.
Part of my mental challenge is that I am still working on my marriage and still holding onto expectations of a life together. Because of that focus I have not clearly envisioned what my life looks like moving forward without my w as a partner, even if we are living in the same house. Ah, more to process and learn from.
How does it happen that she contributes nothing to household expenses? I'm having a difficult time with figuring this out if that is, in fact, what you're saying
How does it happen that she contributes nothing to household expenses? I'm having a difficult time with figuring this out if that is, in fact, what you're saying
She has been a stay home mom for over 13 years. That's how we have always worked it. So it's kind of a habit now. Up until she maxed out the cards we shared everything and I had no issue with providing the income. I always felt part of my ability to do good work was how well she managed the home. We were a team.
Now though, we have struggled and when we talked about her getting a job I thought it was so she could help. In small ways I see that she does. She gives the kids their allowance each pay. She is also paying for the one credit card that is in her name. But I think that is mainly because she does not want me to see how much she is using it, although its pretty obvious.
Bug, this is probably another one of those boundary discussions that I may need to have with her. Remember, I'm a recovering nice guy so these old habits of mine are hard for me to see sometimes.
Oh, and the t-shirt has NOT made a reappearance as of yet.
finance talk is just no fun.
i'm glad you enjoy spending time w/ your kids. honestly.. i find it so attractive when a man is devoted to his family and kids (not that i was ever tempted to date a married man! so not into that!!)
this trip i'm on with the kids.. it was never planned to be vindictive. i never wanted H to feel like he was being left out. it was purely my wanting to create a positive experience for them.. with me.. through all this muckiness. i don't know what the future holds.. i just wanted to do things while i have the chance. nothing wrong with you wanting to do the same w/ yours. hope you do get that opportunity because i think you would really benefit from that. ocean shores? too far??
Thanks BF! With the new job I started a little over 2 years ago I got a lot less time off so it's been a challenge to find both time and money to do some fun things like short trips. So my W has taken the opportunity to go on several trips without me. Honestly, I'm a little jealous that she gets so much time with the kids without me.
I've built up some time now and with the new job I should have some extra cash to do some things so I will need to plan something.
W is planning yet another trip back to see friends in April. This is just her. The kids have school but maybe I can plan a weekend getaway while she is gone. On a side note, I expect that trip to be the last she can afford before maxing out her own credit card...
D10 stayed home today with pink eye. W said she would probably stay home the rest of the week.
The night was ok. W had kids out for drum practice (apparently pink eye doesn't impact that activity). So they were not home when I got home. I then left to go to church for the night. Nothing major when I got home. Little interaction at all with w but spent time in the room all together talked with the kids on the days stuff.
Still no t-shirt.....
Journal stuff:
Work wise, the week has been great. Started my new job at my company on Monday and feel like I hit the ground running. Ended the week today by providing senior leaders an update on an issue we discovered and provided some action plans to correct. My new boss seemed very pleased with how things were handled. The team is a good group of people and we seem to have hit it off pretty well so far.
Home front, not much new. Very little conversation with W this week. I e-mailed her some ideas on how we might use our tax return and asked what she thought. That was 2 days ago and no response. I've tried some very basic conversation but it gets no where.
Last night w took s13 to the midnight showing of hunger games. They had fun. W never told me she was doing is. My s did. Now today my d tells me that w told her she would take her on Sunday. Again, no mention to me and no invitation. Part of me wants to invite myself.
This evening s had 3 buddies over so they are having fun. W corralled d into a room so they could play games on the computer and then went upstairs to watch a movie. It seems that w is constantly organizing activities so that I cannot be included. The problem is that much of what she does she can't afford. But it's on her own credit card so I'll let her deal with that.
I plan to take my kids to see my new office tomorrow. I don't intend to invite my w directly so it will be interesting if she gets herself ready to go with us.
Also I had told w that I was helping a friend from church move tomorrow morning. So she has to get up, get d to b-day party at 9:30 and handle breakfast for the boys.
Why do I feel like this is such a competition for time with the kids. I feel I'm doing good not to act that way but in doing so, I am losing time with them. Just need to start making more plans and just doing them.
And the t-shirt is back again. I will say something to w this weekend about removing it and the picture of OM in the collage frame. Played in through in my head a few times recently and feel I can pull it off in a confident and calm fashion. Then I will brace myself for the reprocusions. The last time I confronted her about the picture she had hidden, I got a verbal assault on how selfish and controlling I am. It will be interesting to see what I get this time.
Odd thing is w still mentioned that I should invite my parents to come visit for Easter. Not sure why she is so willing to do things like that but won't have a conversation.
Had a productive weekend.
Started Saturday by helping some friends from church move into their new home. Lots of people showed up so it was fun fellowship with the guys and it feels good being able to help someone. The husband is in the Coast Guard and they've moved around a lot. Much of their stuff has been in storage for over 3 years. Best part was seeing their 8th grade daughter get so excited about her stuff coming out of storage and getting a great new room!
Went home and cleaned up the lawn and washed & vacuumed both cars to get them cleaned up. I even got a "thank you" from my W for cleaning the car. Got some steaks at the store and grilled those for dinner.
Today, D10 woke up with a goopy eye. She'd had pink eye earlier in the week but had been on medicine for 5 days now. W took it as an opportunity to stay home from church. Did some grocery shopping in the afternoon. Had planned to take my kids to see my new office but its a 45 minute drive and it was getting late. W didn't want them out too late.
We decided to celebrate my new job next weekend. I told the kids rather than a nice dinner, we'd just grab something simple and then go ride go-karts. They seemed pretty pleased about that.
I did not talk to my w about the t-shirt yet. She spent most of the weekend in her pjs. Saturday she had a headache most of the day and today she just bummed around doing very little. Didn't see much sense in kicking her while she was down. Also there were just "signs" in places that made me thing it wasn't the right time. hard to explain here but they were also hard to ignore for me.
I have an IC session in the morning. Will talk about my struggle with resentment and how to approach my talk with W about the t-shirt & picture of OM.
CES - it's like a global warning sign that when you try to speak to a spouse rationally about the other person, they always come back that you are being controlling, manipulative, etc. In away there's some truth to it in that you do have your own agenda in mind, to save your M and family. They're reaction to it however, is usually one of fear and the same out of control mental processes that got them into an A and to walk away.
You can't do anything about an A except protect your kids and paractical matters as best you can, let them go and move forward. A very tall order.
Thanks Rick. You're right. My action to discuss is to gain my own agenda and ultimately my hope would be to impact my W to see things differently. While I see it as trying to fight for my M, it can also be seen as trying to control my W to act as I want.
Not quite sure what I'll accomplish. I may get rid of the t-shirt and picture, but not sure what that ultimately gains me towards the bigger goal of saving my M.
I just realized I hold my breath during every one of your updates, ces. I'm looking for signs of improvement and really hoping for good developments in your life. I'm rooting for you.
I hope you do manage to have that conversation with your wife and never have to see that t-shirt again.
Thanks AT. Here's something. Out of the blue today, I get a text msg from W saying...
"thanks for cleaning the car! I love driving a clean car!"
Not sure where that bit of joy came from but I just responded with a "you're welcome" and left it at that....
Thanks Rick. You're right. My action to discuss is to gain my own agenda and ultimately my hope would be to impact my W to see things differently. While I see it as trying to fight for my M, it can also be seen as trying to control my W to act as I want.
Not quite sure what I'll accomplish. I may get rid of the t-shirt and picture, but not sure what that ultimately gains me towards the bigger goal of saving my M.
The issue of the other person is probably one of the biggest issues we will ever face. I don't know anyone on this board thas cheated on their spouses, so it's such an unimaginable shock when it happens to us. I don't know of any easy answer whether we choose to move forward without our spouse because of it or try to forgive it and R. The answer is beyond our abilities I think and even if we release it to the devine it's still a killer.
I don't know anyone on this board thas cheated on their spouses, so it's such an unimaginable shock when it happens to us.
i don't know if i count as one of the above, as i cheated on my ex-husband, from my first marriage and had a short but intense EA during the 7th year. my ex had cheated on me for years, and it's only now during this sitch that i realize how messed up i must have been when i was younger, during that first marriage. i saw everything so differently - or took things so differently. i only see now, that that affair i had really ended that marriage, because i remember how i turned away from my ex after that - it had been a really strong EA, and i could never get myself to turn back towards him. of course he wasn't trying to attract me back either
in this sitch - i feel so differently and it is the unimaginable shock that you describe above that i feel now.
for what it's worth, i have found myself thinking a lot about how i felt during that EA - and then thought of H during these last few months with his A , and i know so well that compelling force that allows him to do what he's doing. i remember that when i had met that OM all those years ago, i was completely blinded to the ramifications of falling into it - nothing else made any sense - nothing seemed as important.
i feel a bit like the pariah on this site in some ways - because of having been on the other side of the fence so to speak. but the only thing i learned from that was in the end, no one was better off, and it took me until now to see what i had done. the consequences spilled over and their effects can still be felt today.
sadly my h and i have talked about this and in some ways he knows this is what happens, but my example is still not enough to make him rethink what he is doing
didn't mean to hijack your thread ce, and i don't know if it helps in anyway to even start to see the other side - but knowing somewhat how my h might be feeling has helped me in my worst moments
is the absence of the t-shirt and pic more important to you or is saving the relationship? if you maybe try to look at it from that perspective and also think of it in the way "there'll always be a t-shirt" when is the point that you let it go?
i don't know if i put that clearly enough - i read a garfield clip this morning where he's jumping around for joy because winter has ended and he's describing all the things he doesn't have to deal with anymore like snow and cold etc, and how it's going to be so great, and then a big fat fly starts buzzing around his head - the message of course being that, well, if it's not this thing , then there will be some other thing. so if one can't handle this thing, how does one think one can handle the other thing
i've been trying to do that in my sitch - where when i start getting worked up about something, i am stopping and finding myself thinking - my gosh zig here you are wanting so bad for the 2 of you to get back together, and if you can't handle this little thing, how on earth are you going to handle the whole pic
another thought on the was's - do you think that sub-consciously they test us with things like OM's t-shirts just to see what we will do. i know that h is constantly doing that to see if i will "revert" to my old patterns and behaviors. inspect really well for yourself whether what you want to do in this sitch is truly a 180 or whether you are sub-cnsiously reverting to your old reactions - because this is a BIG one - it hurts alot, it's having it thrown in your face, it's really unfair on top of everything else you have had to deal with and when it crosses the line that much, i think that's when old ingrained habits kick in without us realizing it
sorry this is so long - but even while writing this to you - it somehow gave me much clearer perspective on my own actions
take care
zig
Zig - since you have been on both sides of the fence, how to feel about M's reconciling after an affair?. Do you think z M can survive it, or even be a better M after?
i think anything is forgivable if a person can find it in their hearts to forgive
what i find myself thinking so much about now, after all these years when i've finally acknowledged my own responsibility for those actions, is how to forgive myself. i'm not agonizing over it in a huge way because it was from a past relationship that is so over, but in order to live authentically now in the present, i can't help thinking that can i forgive myself for being so blind to what i was doing then? if i am really honest i cannot even now really comprehend how ex may have been hurt (i didn't tell him about it at all, but i wonder now if he may have guessed)
for all these years i justified it as not being a wrong thing to do because he was doing it continuously, but i am acknowledging to myself that that was not a reason for me to do it. i simply did NOT understand what i needed to do to show my unhappiness for all those years.
so while i am now in this sitch, i find myself often applying what i felt then to possibly what H feels now. he simply did not see that our problems and what was missing for him could be fixed in other ways
my feeling these last 7 months is that yes, yes, now i see it, now i know what it takes to make a relationship successful - now i see where i went wrong and how easy in some ways it would be to make things great. but ironically for all of us, the WAS or mlc'er just don't see the same thing.
(just like i was sure that my ex would never change and would continue the same way, i realize now that that is how h sees me and what made him take the step with the A - he was sure life with me would just always be like that and he couldn't bear the idea any longer - he couldn't believe i could be different, he didn't believe that he could get through to me and that justified it for him)
i think it CAN survive and be great - but there is of course the little "slight" detail of the other party co-operating if ya know what i mean
i find myself thinking alot these days -what comes around , goes around - that saying never felt so profound before. and now the only thing i know is that from now on i am going to act and function ONLY from my higher self - and never give the universe a chance to dish me another wake up call - at least not like this one.
that's not implying that this sitch is given to me to punish me for past deeds, it means more that i never want to live again where i am not living authentically.
in a way , rick, its hard to answer your question because even though i was on both sides of the fence - it was not the same fence- and i guess that's where the vets' advice to us about each sitch being different is so true - and why it makes DB'ing so difficult - some of the stories i've read here - people have reconciled after both much less AND much more than what h and i have to work through - and so when they say there's no way to tell, they really mean it don't they?
zig, I love your post. I have so many of the same feelings and thoughts. It was so difficult when I reached the realization that in my case H wasn't leaving as a personal attack at me, he was doing it to save himself. To get away from the hurting.
So much of what he has done is exactly what is advised by MWD no R talk, NC, LRT, etc. And I can assure you, he didn't read the book.
Higher self, yes that's what I'm striving for and why I've continued on this path for this length of time. I'm not yet where I need to be.
I see it as my Hero's Journey.
Zig - thanks so much for the perspective. You are absolutely NOT a pariah...
Can't remember where/if I mentioned this but my 2 closest confidants that I call for support are both men who cheated on their wives and whose marriages are restored. Both have beautiful families and their marriages are now strong. They both have their wives as partners and best friends.
However, there are consequences and it deals with what you said above. One friend has told me that he daily lives with the fact that he cheated; that he betrayed the woman he promised to love. Even though she has forgiven him and loves him, there are days when he cannot love himself. Those days get fewer and fewer but the challenge to forgive himself remains.
I struggle with my mistakes as well. And I do often try and understand what my W is feeling. So here's my confession on this subject (since you're so willing to share).
Early in my M I often felt rejected by my wife. I literally use to keep track in my head how often I would be rejected or denied when trying to initiate sex. Needless to say, my success rate was lousy. I mentioned before that I am reading through the "No More Mr. Nice Guy" book. Well, this fed right into whatever abandonment issues I had from my past.
After a few years of this behavior, rather than having the courage (or just too stupid to look at options) I turned to online porn as an outlet for my sexual needs.
Now here is the part where I want to justify and say, "I only looked at pictures. I never contacted, spoke, chatted or anything like that". But the reality is, I looked outside my M and accepted far less than my M and it was a betrayal.
I felt miserable about myself. Here I am a Christian guy whose not suppose to have these issues. That's what I'd been taught my whole life. So I felt I had no one to go to who would help me with this. The guilt was a heavy burden and it certainly impacted my abilty to be close with my W. But I learned to cover my failings and function in life.
After a few years of "on and off" struggles, I was able to put it behind me and no one ever knew of the struggle I dealt with. But the guilt remained.
6 or 7 years after I'd stopped, my W and I went to a marriage weekend. Somewhere in the conversation my W asked if I had ever looked at porn. I answered honestly and "yes" was about all I ever got to say about it. My W was crushed. She withdrew from me in an extreme way. It took 18 months for us to heal. I worked like crazy to show her I was sorry and loved her. I accepted all bitterness, and anger she handed me. Looking back, my biggest mistake in how I handled it that I saw it as so long ago that I just wanted it to be over and didn't effectively allow her time to heal. I wanted forgiven and I wanted it now.
I remember the shift back to healing. We continued to work well with the kids. Slowly our conversations began again. Somehow I never believed our M would end at that time.
For a good part of the 18 months, I had to work to shut down an operation at work, displacing over 100 employees and myself. I accepted that I had no support at home to deal with this. When W wanted to move away closer to her family, I made arrangements to temporarily move to her sister's over 1000 miles away to look for a job.
In Feb 2009, my W flew down to go to a wedding for her cousin and spend the weekend with me. When she got off the plane, she came to me and wrapped her arms around me and kissed me. She told me that she really did miss me and was afraid she wouldn't.
From that point it seemed life was going better, our relationship, fun times, sexual intimacy... It felt like we were finally back on track. After 15 months out of work, I ended up with 3 job offers on the table and W said she supported me in the job I selected: best pay, relo package, great company. She had told me many times in the past that she wanted me to work for something I could believe in.
I ended up moving 7 months before family at my W's request so the kids could finish school. This also kept us from having 2 house payments since I was able to live with a friend. But during this time, W built relationships with new friends and grew distant from me again. Finally about a week before their move she tells me that we are in 2 different places now and she just wasn't sure what she wanted.
Thus the current journey began. In what discussions W and I have had, the porn has not come up. Its been more about my ability to support her (or lack of). Its these discussions where I see my behaviors of the past in the "Nice Guy" book.
Its all a little different for each of us but I too have to look back and be able to forgive myself for my mistakes. I'm grateful that they are behind me. I'm grateful for a God who forgives and I'm grateful that my eyes have been (and continue to be) opened to ways I can let go of bad things out of my life.
I still hate that I hurt my W in any way. I still have times were I try and justify myself by saying all the issues my W has and her own behaviors. But then I have to remember the peace I have gained in forgiveness and figure out how I can offer this same gift to my W, even if she doesn't accept it.
Ok, didn't realize I'd get into a morning confessional today but there it is. I'll probably worry about what judgements may be placed upon me by those that read this but I at least I can recognize it now and mentally let myself know that my mistakes are in the past and looking forward is the best choice I can make now.
So Zig, after that long confessional, I relate what my W feels towards OM in a similar way to how I used porn to escape. It felt like my only option at the time and I would imagine my W feels something similar towards the OM for herself. It may be mind-reading but it does help me temper my bitterness and look at her with more compassion. Daily choice though.
No judgments at all from me CES, thanks for sharing. I am striving to get to a place where I can forgive myself for the things I did that caused me to get to where I'm at in my sitch and it is tough.
So many regrets, i was asleep at the wheel. I am awake now and it may be too late to R w/ my WAW but not too late to learn from my mistakes.
Best to u CES!!
So many regrets, i was asleep at the wheel. I am awake now and it may be too late to R w/ my WAW but not too late to learn from my mistakes.
Thanks SAIS, I get this feeling as well and just focus on the thankfulness of "waking up"
Lessons that needed to be learned... But we had to loose everything to do so. I actually thanked my H the other night for leaving me because it forced me to look inwards and to the hard work to fix myself so I could be a better mom and feel better about myself again.
CES, early in my M, I struggled with hormone and body image issues... My H turned to porn too. Although it hurt me, I accepted that it was something that he was lacking from me.... Here's what I can't forgive myself for: why didn't that trigger me to DO something to regain his attention?? Instead, I just said "fine, at least I don't have to do any extra work." (and that's the key!! It was easier to just let him do it and me turn a blind eye, than to TRY and WORK to provide what he was missing- I was lazy!) that is only one part of the demise of my M, but an important part. I had to have everything taken away from me in order for me to not me lazy with my relationship... How do I forgive myself for that?!
It's good that you can kinda relate to your W's feelings for the OM- it's not about you, it's about her finding someone/something to fill a void that she has, at least that's how I'm trying to view my H's need for the OW.
I'm glad we're not alone on this roller coaster
Lessons that needed to be learned... But we had to loose everything to do so. I actually thanked my H the other night for leaving me because it forced me to look inwards and to the hard work to fix myself so I could be a better mom and feel better about myself again.
CES, early in my M, I struggled with hormone and body image issues... My H turned to porn too. Although it hurt me, I accepted that it was something that he was lacking from me.... Here's what I can't forgive myself for: why didn't that trigger me to DO something to regain his attention?? Instead, I just said "fine, at least I don't have to do any extra work." (and that's the key!! It was easier to just let him do it and me turn a blind eye, than to TRY and WORK to provide what he was missing- I was lazy!) that is only one part of the demise of my M, but an important part. I had to have everything taken away from me in order for me to not me lazy with my relationship... How do I forgive myself for that?!
It's good that you can kinda relate to your W's feelings for the OM- it's not about you, it's about her finding someone/something to fill a void that she has, at least that's how I'm trying to view my H's need for the OW.
I'm glad we're not alone on this roller coaster
Zig, CES, SAIS, Purg - thanks for your incredible honesty and openness. These few posts alone can help the hundreds of us that are on this board.
I initially asked Zig about forgiveness for an A, and asked her because she had seen two side of it, and her answer was so insightful. And CES, your post is helping me to understand my W.
Although not the same sitch, her PTSD issues were born of a deep self hatred and manifested in her need for male attention, for endless confirmation that she was indeed, in the hottest and most desirable category. It was truly a sickness born out of pain. And CES, you were feeling hurt and trapped in the nice guy syndrome. These kinds of insights make it easier to forgive someone for their pain and maybe even their actions.
SAIS and Purg - you mention being asleep at the wheel, or not taking control of a sitch that you maybe could have rectified had you had the knowledge.
All these stories, though different are the same, we are a group of people that needed to wake up and grow and dammit, here's the opportunity.
everyone:
i feel a bit overwhelmed right now with reading all that has been written here during this discussion - they are heartbreaking for me - there is so much bravery here on this board, but also so much pain and at the same time incredible hope and wonder which makes my heart open even more.
labug:
the realization that in my case H wasn't leaving as a personal attack at me, he was doing it to save himself. To get away from the hurting.
i'm finally getting there myself labug - right from the beginning h said to me"i'm not doing this to you, i'm just doing this" now i'm starting to get it
as for the her's journey - yes, yes, i feel like the warrior - in fact that was what i dressed as for halloween (in between weeping profusely) - but warriors have a soft spot too, and they can weep and still be brave:)
dear ces - morning confessions are the best aren't they? (big grin)
[b]Looking back, my biggest mistake in how I handled it that I saw it as so long ago that I just wanted it to be over and didn't effectively allow her time to heal. I wanted forgiven and I wanted it now[/b]
this really stood out for me - big time - did you notice what you wrote? it is HUGE in our situations - we ALL want this right now from our WAS's. it sort of hit me like a brick - oh my gosh , in spite of all the 37 rules, this is the crux of what we are all struggling with
i hope you don't mind but i am going to copy it and use it at the end of my posts to remind me everyday, that i have to allow this man i love time to heal, and the same time for myself
I'll probably worry about what judgements may be placed upon me by those that read this but I at least I can recognize it now and mentally let myself know that my mistakes are in the past and looking forward is the best choice I can make now.
no judgements - ever! i think it's the judgemental attitude that got us ALL - including the WAS's into this situation. so rest easy - the greatest gift we can give ourselves and the people we love is self-awareness. each time i see something in myself that i become aware of that can be changed towards me being a better person, is a huge gift i give myself and the people i love..
we all need to celebrate eachof these "confessions" don't you think?
sayitaintso:
I am awake now and it may be too late to R w/ my WAW but not too late to learn from my mistakes.
i agree and find myself thinking that alot lately - part of the acceptance thing?
SOOOO hard to reconcile with that idea though - we all of us want so much to be exonerated
purgatory
But we had to loose everything to do so. I actually thanked my H the other night for leaving me because it forced me to look inwards and to the hard work to fix myself so I could be a better mom and feel better about myself again.
how did he react to that?
and what you said about being lazy - oh gosh i am so guilty about the same.
rick:
thanks for what you wrote. after i posted the reply to you, i was sure that there would be silence - i had written too much, i was complaining etc etc, and then i read all the responses and was genuinely surprised and so deeply touched - in my oh so fragile mind i was so sure that i had just dumped my own stuff, and couldn't even begin to think that it might help anyone else. and that's when i realized what a hit my self-esteem has taken during this sitch. so ,in some ironic way, it gave me some confidence that maybe some good can come out of all this in some small way
All these stories, though different are the same, we are a group of people that needed to wake up and grow and dammit, here's the opportunity.
and dammit YES here it really is, and yippee yay that we are all being squeezed and prodded and pushed through it and in spite of it's awfulness, i realize i wouldn't have it any other way - well maybe a little bit softer
love and light to all of us
zig
Thanks Zig - been on a sitar kick on youtube lately...Anoushka Shankir!
A friend gave me some Dvice this morning. He mentioned that in his marriage he often discounted the good things to focus on the bad.
I know that i've been as bad as a politician about flip-flopping on this t-shirt and picture thing. But here are some positives for the week:
W txt me ou of the blue to thank me for cleaning her car. Saids she "loves" driving a clean car.
W took the time to fold all my laundry for me. She often leaves stuff for me to finish if she doesn't like a particular task
W didn't fuss when I took son to church even though she had other plans for dinner. I even offered to stay home and fix dinner because she said she didn't feel well (I asked because she sounded lousy). She was cooperative and encouraged me to take s.
Before bed I cleaned up the kitchen since w had been in bed all day. Figured it would make getting the kids ready in the morning easier. She saw me and said she would have taken care of it in the morning. I explained my reason for helping while still working. Recently she would have huffed away as if I had insulted her abilities. Tonight I got another thank you.
Still may ask her to take it all out of my sight but at this point I'd rather reinforce the positives.
Good to see some positives occurring in your sitch. They help to keep you centered when the negatives surface.
ces, how are things going?? Have you figured out 101 ways to use the shirt yet?
It's actually been a decent week. W and I had some general conversation lt night about our taxes, a claim on our roof and plans for the family this weekend.
Since I started my new job we are going to celebrate this weekend. So tomorrow I am taking the family to see my new office. Then we are going to go drive do some go-kart racing and then a quick bite to eat. Should be a fun day.
W has been nicer this week than typical. Just little things. Several "thank you's" where there are typically none. And less combatative in general. Not sure what is causing it but I will keep up the acts of service stuff and see how it plays out over the next few weeks.
W has another trip planned to our old home the 3rd week of April to work with her friend. I hope to have lots of fun between now and then. Also kids are staying with me so I plan to make it so she is missing out on a lot and have tons of fun with the kids.
Those thank yous can be a good sign. So far in my sitch, the show of appreciation for the little things has been enough to keep me doing whatever it is I got thanked for. It's giving me time to develop new habits that are in beneficial in general.
If she's reciprocating by doing little things for you (like folding the laundry), it may not mean anything, BUT it at least shows that there's some consideration of you on her part. Baby steps, friend, baby steps.
Agree with Tenbears ^^^^^ baby steps!
Nothing major tonight. We ordered pizza and wings for dinner. As usual, s13 has plenty of friends over. They finish the pizza off for us.
At one point w and I are left at the dinner table with just us as kids have left to play. It just felt so weird. I made some brief small talk but I make a point not to go to any touchy topics. W spends the evening sewing and talking to her foster-mom on the phone. I hang out in the other room reading and checking out what's available on our free Netflix trial.
Now s13 and I are watching myth busters while w keeps sewing. I think tomorrow should be fun though.
Are you all going? W included? It does sound like a really good weekend. I hope you guys have fun!
W has been nicer this week than typical. Just little things. Several "thank you's" where there are typically none. And less combatative in general. Not sure what is causing it but I will keep up the acts of service stuff and see how it plays out over the next few weeks.
I think if you can pinpoint why the change in demeanor and attitude it will help you to do more of it.
I'm glad she is at least being being civil. Maybe hold off on the tee shirt for now
BF, yes we are all going. I left it open ended and did not specifically invite her. She just assumed she was included and I didn't argue.
2- I agree. I'll swallow my pride a bit longer. I mentioned the advice a friend gave me on Wednesday. Acknowledge and appreciate the good things and don't get distracted by the negative.
A management book I read once compared it to teaching a child to walk. We celebrate each step they take and overlook the times they fall, knowing the encouragement of progress is far more helpful than focusing on the times they fall.
It's so hard to practice this when feelings and expectations are involved.
sounds like great weekend plans! keep us posted!
So we went to the office and the kids liked my new office and the balcony. I only had 1 picture of my W in the office. It was of her and D after she was born so its about a 10 year old picture. Still one of my favorits. Honestly, I put it out on Friday before I left so she would see at least one pic of herself in there. Not sure why i did that but I did.
After that I walked the kids around the campus of work showing them some of the history of the place. They thought it was really cool. W stayed quiet.
After that we went to race go-karts. It started raining so the kids got to play in the the game room and we got a raincheck to come back and race another time. W suggested next weekend.
From there I took them to a restaurant that I like close to work and we had dinner. Its a local place with lots of home-made stuff so we got dinner and some home made desserts of lemon bars, cinnamin rolls and chocolate donuts. Oh, and my son had "mexican Coca Cola" which is made with real sugar cane instead of corn syrup.
During dinner, W said "Congratulations to Daddy on his new job". She made a point to say something about it and remind the kids why we were having our night out. That actually caught me off guard. I wasn't expecting that and said "thank you" without really looking at her.
We're home now and I'm watching TV with the kids and she's sowing again.
This stuff is easier to manage when I don't have expectations.
Oh, and my D has been far more playful and interactive with me lately. Very thankful for that.
Enjoy the little things CES. I will fight for you...just stand still, you shared this. Sounds like a good thing to do right now.
Journal stuff:
Got up and S13 and I made it to church in time for class. D10 had crawled in bed with W last night. I went to wake her up but W said she'd bring her to church. They showed up 15 minuts after the service started. At least we drove separate so S13 and I were able to hang out a bit and visit.
We went home and changed and did a quick lunch of fast food. Then we went and saw "Hunger Games" together. W & S13 had seen it opening night but D10 wanted to see it and we all went together.
Side note..Between this movie series & the Twilight stuff, what's the deal of these movies were girls bounce around between 2 guys, messing with their hearts? Very irritating.
After the movie, I did the grocery shopping and W stayed home and helped the kids with their homework.
I noticed W had new work out shorts on and she also wore a new dress to church today. It so irritating that W got upset when I asked for help with the bills after she started her new job and yet, she's got money to buy herself clothes almost weekly, travel to see friends and then go out a bunch when she's with them.
Think I'll pull my credit reports on my next pay to make sure no more credit cards have been opened in my name. I've seen W with a few mail offers stuffed in her pile of things.
My trust in her is so low right now. I just need to make sure I'm protecting myself & the kids.
If you find on the credit reports that accounts have been opened in your name without your knowledge or permission, you have a right to file a fraud claim. Protecting your hard earned credit rating is super important, especially if you find yourself D.
I hope nothing shows up. You don't need that added stress.
A management book I read once compared it to teaching a child to walk. We celebrate each step they take and overlook the times they fall, knowing the encouragement of progress is far more helpful than focusing on the times they fall.
It's so hard to practice this when feelings and expectations are involved.
i think this applies to us too, don't you think - i find myself "falling" so often and then getting really down about it, but now i've decided that it's more important for me to focus on what i get right and make sure i repeat it again
glad to here that there have been more positive things happening with your wife - you deserve it, and more. you're right though - it is SO hard not to have expectations. i have to say that during this sitch, every time i have NOT had expectations is when i have always had a pleasant unexpected surprise. you'd think we'd be quick learners...
cheers
zig
2- I'll be surprised if anything is there but still need to check.
Zig - yeah, pretty slow learner myself. I think its like when people take medicine and then start feeling better, they go off the medicine. Then they realize it was the medicine helping them feel better but by then the illness is back.
When I let go of expectations, I feel better and even hopeful, then that hope leads me back to expectations before I realize it. Gotta get out of that cycle.
When I let go of expectations, I feel better and even hopeful, then that hope leads me back to expectations before I realize it. Gotta get out of that cycle.
I'm right there with you. It's hard to balance. Hope is such a precious but dangerous thing. Just try to keep reminding yourself to have no expectations.
It really sounds like we're experiencing some similar things in our sitches, I'll hope for you to keep seeing the small improvements. I'll certainly pray for it.
the expectations.. vicious cycle. been there many times.. lol.
how are you liking your new office?
Love my new office! Best view in the entire building. It's still weird to me when one of my staff walks in and closes the door though! I have 6 direct reports and they are all women. I told them for ethical reasons that during our 1 on 1 meetings, the others had to take turns standing on the balcony watching through the window as a "chaperone" for each other to verify nothing inappropriate takes place!
W seems to be in a mood tonight. During dinner I was asking my son some questions about his day and I notice that my wife appears to be smirking and shaking her head. I ask her if something is wrong. She just says "no". When I thank her for dinner she just replies "uh huh". So I ask her again. Same reply. So I tell her what I saw her do at dinner and that it felt like I was irritating her for some reason. She said she didn't even remember what I was saying. So I replied that I must have misread her and apologized and left it at that.
I was not mean and focused my words to express how I felt rather than what she did. I was matter of fact about it and just felt like I didn't need to be disrespected in front of my kids. That's a 180 for me s I would not have called her out on the behavior in the past.
Not sure what came over me but I asked my wife to consider attending Retrovaille with me. There is a session in our area in September.
The past 2 nights when I thanked W for dinner she has replied "uh huh" rather than with thank you. Last night I asked her if anything was wrong, tonight I ignored it.
While w was cleaning up after dinner, I told her I would appreciate if she would consider something. I explained that I had red about a communication seminar that focused on marriage. Tild her it wasn't until September and if I sent her info on it would she look at it?
She said she would look at it but the tone made me feel as if the chances of her agreeing are slim. I will send her the info tomorrow by e-mail and then leave it for a month or so.
But hey, I put it out there. I have no expectations and I don't regret it.
hi ces - i like the way you described the "cycle" - it's bang on!!
gives me one more thing to work on (grin)
CES I have found through this sitch that the WAS is completely and fully focused only on themselves. No courtesy at all can be expected and thd fact that you're their partner doesn't factor in at all. Until you realize this you will continue to be dumbfounded by the sheer rudeness and double standards.
I think your right to offer the program to her but don't be suprised if you never hear a response. To a WAS everthing is about them and no common courtesy exists whatsoever.
What we are told about DB'ing seems to be true in that you have to say goodbye to it all, and really accept the M is over. That's why there so much focus on GAL. Its either that or be a slave to this sitch.
I know how hard it is not to hold out hope on every little thing and to constantly temp check. The problem with that is you are giving your happiness over and control of your life over to a WAS.
Your and incredibly deep and thoughtful person. Keep remembering your strengths and keep your faith and you will get stronger every day!
^^^^^^^ =@@=!! So true and sooo frustrating, etc.. With ya CES!!
Sometimes when limbo becomes the norm for an extended period of time we want and need to mix things up a bit. Asking your W to consider Retrouvaille seems like a good way to achieve that.
As long as you are truly ok if she blows you off on this, then I see no issue broaching the subject. It's the expectations that will get you every time. I know!
So whats the latest on the Tee shirt?
CES I have found through this sitch that the WAS is completely and fully focused only on themselves. No courtesy at all can be expected and thd fact that you're their partner doesn't factor in at all. Until you realize this you will continue to be dumbfounded by the sheer rudeness and double standards
thanks for pointing this out rick - i as well as the family have been astounded by this and now i am starting to realize that it is all part of the walk away package.
finding myself now in the position where the mil's and siblings can only see that and judge h on each of his actions and are getting more and more disgusted.
but my view is changing where i don't see it as significantly as i did before, the more i realize that this is just what they do in the state they are in.
Thanks Rick, yeah, I went into the option with no expectations. I really didn't even ask her to go specifically, but just to look it over and think about it. I doubt she will bring it up again unless I ask her about it. I'll give it a couple months before I bring it up again. Funny thing is this was not a planned out idea. It just sort of occurred to me and I acted on it without too much consideration. It felt right this way, without all the deliberation.
I mentioned earlier my cycle of hope turning into expectations. So I'm working on being grateful for what kindness or courtesy I do see from my W but make a conscious effort to stop there rather than take it as a sign that we may be healing.
2 - No change on the t-shirt. I've not mentioned it and its still around. About 1/2 the time its covered up by my W's bath towel. There are several things that are getting under my skin right now and it all boils down to a pattern of what I perceive as deception on my W's part...money, schedules, travel, relationships. If I addressed it all, it would only end up a full-on attack and I can't see that helping my sitch any.
I am meeting with a new IC tomorrow. This is someone a friend at church recommended and is actually the in-direct source of how I learned about the Divorce Busting book. He is a licensed Marriage & Family Therapy counselor and very "pro-marriage". I'm curious to get his thoughts on how I am handling things and if he has any suggestions.
CES - you have been living with this drama for a long time now; almost 2 years if I go by your signature block.
There are several things that are getting under my skin right now and it all boils down to a pattern of what I perceive as deception on my W's part...money,schedules,travel,relationships. If I addressed it all, it would only end up a full-on attack and I can't see that helping my sitch any.
So you'd rather die a slow death by 1000 cuts than assert yourself in an area that is the source of significant discomfort? It would appear that you need to start setting some boundaries and stop being fearful of upsetting the delicate balance that seems to be all in favor of your W and not of you.
I may be wrong but it sure does look like you are allowing yourself to be a doormat is some respects. Perhaps you will be able to gain some clarity and even a new strategy for dealing with your sitch after meeting with your new C.
Keep us posted on how things work out with the new C.
2 - you may very well be right. And you're not the first person to say something similar. I have had a few close friends tell me that I need to confront my W and that I'm being to "nice" (yes, that dreaded word...)
Then there is my counselor, the DB book and my own thoughts about how confrontations can push the WAW even further away.
I have continued to go down the latter path of how I'm interpretting the DB book and giving my W space & time to work through her issues. Yes, its been almost 2 years since the bomb, but I've only been applying the DB principles for maybe 6 months at best.
I also think my "nice guy" tendencies are still working against me. These are life-long patterns and I'm sure there are common actions I'm taking that I don't even recognize yet as harmful because of how natural they seem.
Even typing this out I can see how I am trying so hard to "get it right". I honestly can't tell within myself if I'm choosing to be non-confrontational because I think its the right path or if I'm paralyzed by indecision. I've given this a lot of thought and prayer and its just not clear yet to me.
When I brought up RetroV, it was clear and obvious and I acted. These other topics just aren't as clear to me. Maybe its time for a leap of faith.
I will be covering this with the new IC tomorrow and hope for some insight that settles in my heart with a conviction and direction.
Thanks for the mental challenge. I do appreciate it.
Even typing this out I can see how I am trying so hard to "get it right". I honestly can't tell within myself if I'm choosing to be non-confrontational because I think its the right path or if I'm paralyzed by indecision. I've given this a lot of thought and prayer and its just not clear yet to me.
are you a libra? lol.
i think i'm like you.. sometimes i can't tell whether i'm just avoiding confrontation or just completely indecisive on what the right thing to do is.
sept is a long ways away. you've put it out there.. give her some time to let it sink in.
as far as this whole M thing.. i really don't know what i'm doing. so all i can do is say that i think you're a great guy and just here to support you.
(((( ))))
Actually I'm a Gemini. (or Taurus if you go by the updated zodiac). Glad I'm not the only one.
Feeling very angry tonight. My w asked me to run to the store after dinner. No big deal really. Picking up some final stuff for Easter for the kids. As I get it all I realize I don't have enough in my account for this and my regular expenses for next week and end up using a credit card to take care of the purchase. I'm mad at myself for not planning better and because I just went and did what my W asked me to do without thinking it through.
I am also turning on my W as well since she has not offered any assistance with family expenses since getting her job. Think I need to sleep this off and figure out what I want to do. I will definitely be calling the financial place back and get set up for the budget coaching whether or not my w chooses to participate.
Thanks for the ((())) BF. back at ya!
ces, good for you going to the budgeting workshop. That might give you just the energy you need.
I'm reading The Solo Partner now and just today read the chapter Dealing with "Who is to blame". In it he says: In order to make your point without reactivity, state only your true "I" position. There is an example about money, the husband was an impulsive buyer. The wife's "I" statement: "I decided to get my own checking account to simplify my finances." I know this is a bit different from your problem but it might be helpful to think about your "I" statement around your issue.
"Put all your efforts into saying exactly what you mean without being critical or vindictive."
CES, I did a quick skim over your past two threads...
How is your current tack working for you?
The t-shirt is still bothering you?
Do you feel you are still in limbo and repeating the same thoughts and actions of your own and interactions with your W?
Is anything changing over the past month?
If so, what specifically?
What specifically is BETTER in your life?
What do you want to get rid of, right now... that you've had enough of?
What do you think you could do differently now, to change some things up again...?
It could be time to break some of your patterns... let go of the baggage and take on some new tasks this spring...
Thanks Bug! I will try and frame up my feelings in these terms and see how it feels. It seems recently that I am holding in too many feelings. In an effort to be kind and act "as if" I am holding in the things that my W does that frustrates me and so with holding this in, its building the resentment & anger I've been feeling.
KD - Thanks for stopping by and providing some structure for my thoughts....
How is your current tack working for you?
Mainly since starting DB, I've pulled back on any R talk and tried to act more "AS IF" and do my thing. I feel it has significantly decreased the amount of hostility my W has since beginning the DB stuff in December.
The t-shirt is still bothering you?
Yes it is. At first I tried to overlook it and take the high road so to speak. Lately, its feels like a sign of deception coupled with other things I am noticing. More on that later...
Do you feel you are still in limbo and repeating the same thoughts and actions of your own and interactions with your W?
I do feel in limbo and with more consideration its because I have expectations that our M will eventually be worked on by both of us and its not happening. Just realized that expectation. It seems I need to come to terms with letting that go and figuring out what that looks like for me. The main thing that is repeating is what I mentioned before, I allow hope to turn into expectations which then turns into disappointment. I struggle with how to have hope along with no expectations and I refuse to give up hope. Just need to let go of my image of what hope looks like, maybe.
Is anything changing over the past month?
Since January my W started a part-time job with friends back in our former home. She works for OM and his W doing some basic administrative work with their inventory. My understanding of the purpose of the job was to help our family deal with our financial struggles. I also expressed to my W when she told me about it that I understood how the flexibility of the job would be good for her time with the kids but that I didn't like her working for the OM (I had found a picture of the 2 of them back in the fall that she had hidden and confronted her about it then - She claimed it was infatuation only).
Since starting the job, W has not offered any assistance with expenses and even got upset with me when I made a suggestion on the topic in February. W complained that she really didn't make that much and still needed the money I gave her each pay. However, W is constantly buying herself new clothes; dresses, work out clothes, fancy tops & underwear. She travels when she wants to and eats out and does various entertainment when she's with them that we don't get to do as a family due to expenses.
I also did some recent snooping - yes, I know, not good. I found another picture of W & the OM in the "downloads" folder of our macbook. It a pic he took of the 2 of them with his phone. He's got his arm around her pulled in close to him. It seems he took it and e-mailed it to her. My guess is when she opened it, the macbook automatically saved it to the download folder. The file has a November date - so after I confronted her about the other pic I'd found.
If so, what specifically?
W now uses the job as a reason to travel back to our former home. She keeps the macbook with her constantly, even keeps it in her bedroom at night, and I'm concerned she still communicates with OM via chat sessions. I know they use to do this back in 2010 based upon notes I'd found several months ago. I never let my W know I found these notes or the pic I found on the macbook.
I feel like I'm being used and manipulated. W takes the parts of our M that are convenient for her and then does what she wants without contributing back except where it concerns the kids (she is still a very good mom).
What specifically is BETTER in your life?
I am controlling my emotions better and letting go of my worries and negative thoughts. This has given me better focus at work and I feel valued and appreciated in a job I love. I am more at peace with myself in many ways and feel I maintain very positive interactions with the kids. I am doing some better on GAL stuff and doing some things I want to do. Still room for improvement here. My new job came with a raise so I am in a better position to deal with our debt on my own given my W does not seem to want to help.
What do you want to get rid of, right now... that you've had enough of?
I want to get rid of the deception that seems so obvious in the past few months. W is hiding how she uses money and she's hiding details of her relationship w/ OM, whether in the past or not.
I want to get rid of the resentment & anger I feel because its not who I want to be and its not the motivations I want to drive my life.
What do you think you could do differently now, to change some things up again...?
Here's what comes to mind... Tell my W how I feel and stop holding in my frustrations and feelings. I feel I've made a poor choice in not addressing issues where I am frustrated. But I tend to look at how I may have contributed to the issue and then set my own frustrations aside. This is starting to eat at me.
I want to address my concerns with how W's spending is destructive to our family. I want the t-shirt & the pics of OM gone. I feel I'm at a point that if she wants to hold on to these things then there is little use in continuing work on our M and we may need to go our separate ways. I hate this. But maybe its time to face the facts that she wants something else more than our M to work and I need to openly acknowledge this to her.
It could be time to break some of your patterns... let go of the baggage and take on some new tasks this spring...
I think to let go of the baggage, I will need to express several things to my W about what I am seeing and how I see this moving forward. In my head it sounds like an ultimatim ("If you want to stay together these things cannot be part of our life - OM stuff, hiding money, secrets...") I need to figure out how to say this differently in a way of the "I" statements like Bug suggests and also in a way that sets my own boundaries for living a more emotionally healthy existance.
Meeting with the new IC today and trying to figure out how to bundle all this up in a 20 minute explanation so we have time to discuss options....
Thanks all.
That was good stuff, CES.
Yesterday evening I began thinking again about the double binds the LBS often finds themselves in.
Things like "too little, too late" or "you always have to be right" that the WAS script will say to us.
We get set up into a position where there is nothing we can do or say because we are already convicted and any defence is further example of our faults and failures.
A useful and successful solution to the double bind is acceptance and affirmation:
Yes, it is too little and too late.Even though it is too little and too late, does not have to stop one from continuing forward. There is no defence and therefore there is no argument. The actions of growth are outside of the scope of the past.
Yes, I do have to feel right.Everyone has a need to feel they are right. That does not mean that others have to be wrong. In fact, at its core, often being right has no bearing on anyone else except the individual. Acceptance of the human need to feel secure that they are correct provides them with a valuable source of motivation to continue on their path.
This past week, I was also working through the lying... ie. withholding and hiding...
In some ways, that is a passive form of double bind. If nothing is wrong with an action, then there is no need to hide the action.
If a spouse tells us that they feel they do not feel married, yet hide an OP, they do in fact feel that they will be judged by us or others for the OP. Therefore, the truth is they DO feel it is wrong, when the reality may very well be that there is NOTHING wrong with them being with the OP, if they truly are making that choice to be with someone else.
So the moment the double bind begins is not when they take on the OP, but when they hide the OP. Which then introduces the likelyhood that their involvement with OP will surface and thus they will be judged as doing something wrong, by being with the OP.
Anyhow, the point of posting the above is to understand that what you do to be better or to have peace of mind has no bearing on how your W may or may not have or place you in a double bind.
While I accept that my W will continue to hide her private life to me, I stepped out of the double bind by confronting the lie, while accepting the OP, regardless of his romantic or lack there of involvement with my W.
Perhaps you are stuck in some double binds. Figure them out and unstuck yourself... then you will likely feel freedom to move forward in a more constructive and positive way.
Thank KD, will need to process this a bit and see how it play out with my words & behaviors. Question for you, how did you "confront the lie" with acceptance of OP? How did that look for you?
Just finished up meeting with the new IC. I liked him. I explained how I feel stuck in not knowing what to do. He responded that while he won't tell me what I should do, he will try and offer more than a listening ear and at least offer some insight & direction.
First session, so a lot of time was on background, me & W and our sitch.
Long story short, he suggested that while speaking to W about these things may very well come, he'd like me to do some reading to that may help me with some better understanding at the emotional level. Book 1) "Hold Me Tight" followed by book 2 "Not Just friends".
C indicated these books may offer me 2 things. First, a better understanding at the emotional level of where both me and W are and then also it provides guidance on how to have conversations with a focus on reconciliation rather than accusation.
So another professional indicating not to breach the subject just yet. So I'll get the books and start the next reading project...
Thank KD, will need to process this a bit and see how it play out with my words & behaviors. Question for you, how did you "confront the lie" with acceptance of OP? How did that look for you?
I have to admit that it did not come about as an overt, direct conversation.
Rather, it began when I tried to find out where my D14 was and who she was with, last weekend. I wanted to see her for a bit, but she wasn't home when I dropped her off.
There were a number of holes in the story about where she was and who she was with and I then noticed that FS18's car was at the OP's house.
I had a breaking point there and I wanted to impress on D14 that I would not tolerate her lying to me. That I knew she was not where I was told she was nor whom she was with and that she needed to stop hiding the OP on the request of W.
Of course, that got back to my W who then, for the first time, actually spoke of the OP by name and suggested her relationship with him (non-romantic), which I believe is the true context now. But to which I responded that it did not concern me about W's relationship with OP, just the lying by hiding his existence in their lives.
Now, I don't expect that W, D14, nor D9 will be forthcoming with their interactions with OP now. But at least I was able to take care of a clear and no longer feel I have to pussy foot around him...
"
Oh, OK... you're going out with OP and the crew? Sounds good, have fun! C U l8r!"
Hope that makes sense.
And so in your case, if there was a shirt and picture elephant in the room, I would now be very comfortable simply putting them on the table (literally) and saying something like:
"
Hey, do you think OP might want this shirt back up one day and that is a great pic of you and OP and it might look good hanging on the wall over there."
Just put it out there, acknowledge that OP exists in your W's life, indicate your acceptance of such, and move on.
Your W's reaction and any consequences have nothing to do with you, but you are released of the double bind and her "power" and "control" over you are gone, at least in that context.
Glad it got it out in the open for you. I have already confronted my w when I found the first pic back in October. Also told her my concerns about her working with this family.
At this point I will give this new counselor a chance and read what he has suggested.
So trying to break my cycle of hope-expectations-disappointment... W was gone most of the night last night. Went with d10 to a movie with d10's friends and a few moms for a b-day party. W came home about 10pm. D10 was spending the night with the friend for the party. W said she was going back over for a bit and would be back soon.
I've learned that the definition of "soon" is very different for us. I was up until after 1am reading and q still was not home. Woke up again around 4am and her car was in the garage. Not sure why she doesn't just say she will be out late. Not sure why she has to pretend and lie about it.
She was friendly enough today. Told me about an odd dream she had that included me telling her how to take off her make-up. I just laughed a little at it. We talked about our weekend schedule and trying again tomorrow to take the kids to drive go-karts tomorrow afternoon.
Now I've been doing yard work and got a little sun for myself. About to head outside again and show my son how to use the weed-eater.
So formerly I would have been a bit hopeful with the casual conversations that w and I had last night and today. This time not so much. I can feel myself losing attraction for her ever so slightly and it makes me sad.
The smile that I fell in love with is gone or at least not there when I am around. Her caring nature isn't there much either. She is more self-absorbed and focused on material things and what I call "food time distractions".
I will keep trying. I still was a better marriage and I love my wife in the sense of commitment and promise. I hope some day the emotional connection is there as well to make a whole relationship, but I do not expect it at this point.
Well easter was ok. Actually made it to church on time. As usual, my wife took d10 as soon as the last song ended and went to the car. S13 and I visited for a bit. As we were walking out to the car, s13 got a bit irritated with his mom and made some comment about not understanding why she doesn't like church. Had no answer for him.
After lunch at the house we went and did the go-karts. Had a blast driving with the kids. D10 ride with me once, her mom once and on her own twice. I also did a few things with just d10 that she wanted to do and no one else did. We had a lot of fun. Also played putt putt. W and I didn't talk much except just ne essay stuff.
We ate there before leaving. I asked some questions about the summer. The 3 week visit has been stretched to 5 or 6. W said wage was needed to cover he friend's business while they were out of town. At first she said it was due to a dance competition. At this I looked at her and said "so you and (OM) will be running things?". She looked at me for a second and said, "no, they will be on vacation and I'm covering while they are gone. Not sure if I believe her.
After we got home, I went for a run. Wife actually asked my help with something and said "thank you". Part of me feels like she was trying to cover but part of me wants to give her the benefit still seeing her as the woman I fell in love with.
Still had a great time with my kids. Discovers that s13 officially has feet as big as mine now. Told him I was going to have to start buying him cooler looking shoes!
i'm glad easter went well for you ces - you sound as if you're doing well - that's great:)
zig
Thanks. Still not sure how well I am doing but overall aim functioning well in my own life. Seems very little progress in the M and I need to decide how to change my approach. Also time to start a new thread...