My husband and I have been married for 8 years... been together 9 (we went to High School together so we knew each other for several years before we got together). We have three children together. Over the years I have struggled with depression and have had major anxiety in getting things done... i.e. cleaning the house, running my business... I was basically living in chaos ALL the time and feeling overwhelmed. Continually felt like I was drowning and just trying to keep my head above water, especially when baby #3 came along. My husband has been my rock. He would ALWAYS pick up the slack for me... cleaning, taking care of the kids when he could, organizing, cooking... everything. Call him amazing... he is!! However, his downfall is that he never had a serious talk with me about how all of this was affecting him. In fact, he was still showing me in little ways that he loved me and so when it all came crashing down, it was very, very confusing. He stated that he had been falling out of love for a long time and was just trying to keep things together but now he has nothing left to give so therefore he wanted to get divorced. Obviously, going through this has forced me to look at myself and really evaluate what I need to be doing in order to get my life back in order. I fell into a huge "funk" that I didn't know how to get out of and felt trapped. And to add on top of all of that I had awful spending habits which resulted in us filing for bk last year. We both now live with each of our parents (not living with each other) and are renting our house out so we don't have a mortgage payment so we can try to get back on our feet again. And what he's telling me now is that he really wants to see me be more independent. He wants me to be emotionally and financially stable. To which he then added, "I'm not saying this so that I can leave you, it just helps me see you be independent." I am struggling with knowing what to do because I am running my own business but it has become so slow because I've been such an emotional wreck that it is almost non-existent. I'm struggling to know if I should continue to work on my business and build it up more or if I should go and get a 40 hr job and put my kids in daycare. We split the kids half and half each week so they would only be going one to two days a week. My business allows me to make my own hours so I can be home with them. They are still little and only go to school half day. To add on top of all of this, he has had an emotional "friendship" affair with another woman at work. And when I asked him to stop the text messaging, at first he said he didn't think that was fair because she's his friend, but then after I explained to him what a huge red flag that is, he told me he would stop. However, this only stopped for maybe three days and then started back up again. I kept watching the bill and bringing it up to him and so eventually he split our cell phone bills so I couldn't see it. Then a couple weeks ago when we were moving out of our house, I had left for a couple days on a trip to "get away," he brought this girl over to our house to help him move our things. I've confronted her and she basically sees nothing wrong with their relationship (I've known her ever since my husband started his job about 5.5 yrs ago and have always liked her but I think she has taken this a bit too far). In the months of June and July of last year my H had 5,500 text messages in each of those months and the majority of those messages were to and from her. It was everyday, all day long. It still makes me sick to even think about it. How does a person think that that is ok? I mean, he would have had to have been glued to his cell phone 24/7. This woman is married but is also having marriage issues and when I talked to him about having her over to help him move while I was gone, he admitted to me that he's attracted to her. He did also state that he hasn't let himself go there with thinking about doing anything more with her, i.e. kissing or anything on that level. But he just really enjoys her company and they have a lot in common. He left me in August 2011 and since then we have been up and down. He's come back wanting to work things out only to leave again not knowing if he can ever feel the same again. I've done the normal pressuring, trying to get him to see things from my point of view, and constantly showing him old things like pictures and old letters that he wrote to me when we were happier and more "in love." Obviously, none of that helped and then I read DR. It has helped me so much it is almost like my Bible right now. However, I just read on another thread that you should not have your spouse read the book and I have already given him a copy. Is that awful? I felt like it had so many good things to consider that I couldn't imagine him not reading it. I'd love to know thoughts on that. I have been doing really well at not talking about our relationship and just this week (I hadn't seen my H for a week) when he dropped off the kids, he seemed in really good spirits, as was I. And he asked me if I wanted to go to breakfast with him the next morning. I, of course, accepted but then plans were cancelled due to my daughter's Dr. appt. We then ended up going out to lunch but with all of our kids which made it very hard to talk... so it was pretty uneventful. Not that I wanted to talk about the relationship. I more just wanted to see why he wanted to go out in the first place. He says that the time apart does help him realize what's important and helps him see what needs to happen in order for our relationship to work. But I am stuck knowing which direction I should go as far as my career goes because I know its important for him to see me be successful and, of course, its important to me as well. And I need advice on keeping myself cool, calm and collected when he is around. He emotionally sets something off inside me so its hard for me to hide what I'm feeling no matter how hard I try... meaning, he always makes me really nervous. I've never felt this way around him before. Like I'm walking on egg shells and my every move is being monitored and judged. Help!
Welcome to the board.
No you should try to keep this place a secret and since you have already given him the books just let go of that part for now.
There is a chance that he won't read it or do the work anyway, so it may not matter.
DO not tell him anything else, it is like giving the opposing team your playbook.
It is also controlling and very unlikely to help.
You can not FIX him as YOU did not BREAK him.
That is going to be up to him and you must let him go and give hime space.
Sorry you are on moderation but keep posting in small frequent quantities and you will get off.
Also please hit carriage return when you post to make them a little easier to read.
Welcome to the board.
I wish I would have known that part about having OS read the book. You may be right, he may not even care for it. Who knows? I'm too apprehensive about asking him about it anyway.
I am not sure if you read DR JKS but here is a list to start you of with.
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.
30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes
Thank you, that list is actually where I saw not give your spouse the DR book. Too late. I'm interested to see how next week goes when he comes to pick up the kids. They will be celebrating my son's birthday at his mom's house. I, of course, am not invited. This was the same for my daughter's 1st birthday a month ago. Not invited. However, I never said anything to him about it. I had my own little party and I will have my own little party for my son too. Life goes on...
H came to pick up the kids on Sunday. It's my S's birthday tomorrow and I knew H and his family were planning a party for him on Sunday. It hurts to know he doesn't want me there. He doesn't talk to me about anything but little things here and there. He is always really nice to me when he sees me and even gave me a hug Sunday before he left and asked me how I was doing. I told him "I'm doing good." Trying very hard to not be the sulky, sad wife that I once was. We had more small talk and he left. I'm really struggling these last couple of days because it's been almost a month of me not pursuing or talking to him about anything and I can see that he seems happier about us but I'm still left in the dark. In the mean time, I'm starting to make myself angry about his EA and his desire to leave our religion. I'm struggling to know if this marriage is something that I TRULY want based on those things. These last couple of days have been depressing. I still do not contact him but I need to GAL but don't really know what to do...
What are you in the dark about?
And as far as keeping your emotions in check when he's around, try to keep interactions short and to the point. Protect yourself until you're stronger.
I'm in the dark about whether or not he still wants a divorce, if he's still talking with that OW as much as he was before, if this is helping him, how he feels about us... and I know these are all things I can't ask him about right now but I get in these phases where I can't put my mind anywhere else. I went running this morning to make myself feel better and cried the entire way back home. I cried driving home from a friend's house last night. I cried this morning when I woke up. You're right, I am not strong enough right now to have long interactions with him. And I do try to be the first to say good-bye or to turn and go.
Grief is a normal part of this process. Don't ignore it, work through that. Do you see an IC? Is there a Divorce care or recovery group in your town?
Try not to worry about what he's thinking. Live your life as if you are divorced.
Do you need him for you to be happy? If so, that's not good whether you divorce or not. You should be in control of your happiness.
Have you read Codependent No More? It might help you.
What things are you doing for YOU? What are your GAL's? What are your goals for you?
Grief is a normal part of this process. Don't ignore it, work through that. Do you see an IC? Is there a Divorce care or recovery group in your town?
I was seeing a therapist when this all began but felt like I came to a standstill with her and have since been referred to another therapist that my friend absolutely loved but I have no money to afford one. Sad, but true.
Try not to worry about what he's thinking. Live your life as if you are divorced.
Do you need him for you to be happy? If so, that's not good whether you divorce or not. You should be in control of your happiness.
This has been a huge factor from his standpoint and I get it. I have actually come a long way. These feelings came out of no where because I was doing really well without him.
Have you read Codependent No More? It might help you.
I have not, I will look into getting it... thank you for the tip.
What things are you doing for YOU? What are your GAL's? What are your goals for you?
I am trying to spend quality time with my kids, becoming a better mother and connecting with them more. I'm trying to consistently work out, I feel sooo much better and have so much more energy when I do. I'm trying to overcome this anxiety of feeling like I can't get things done around the house. I want it to come naturally and not be such a struggle for me anymore. These are all things I want for me because it makes ME happier being this person.
I have also made my religion one of my top priorities which was something that I needed to make a priority all along, I'm learning.
I think one of the hardest things for me right now is that I just moved in with my mom and her husband (not my father) and as much as I appreciate their support and love, I feel like the third wheel with some major baggage. And they live in a city that is pretty far from where all of my friends live so I am going through that process of having to meet new people and make new friends but it is very much outside my comfort zone to put myself out there.
I was seeing a therapist when this all began but felt like I came to a standstill with her and have since been referred to another therapist that my friend absolutely loved but I have no money to afford one. Sad, but true.
Look for other resources. Does your pastor or someone at your church do counseling? Divorce support groups can be helpful.
I am trying to spend quality time with my kids, becoming a better mother and connecting with them more. I'm trying to consistently work out, I feel sooo much better and have so much more energy when I do. I'm trying to overcome this anxiety of feeling like I can't get things done around the house. I want it to come naturally and not be such a struggle for me anymore. These are all things I want for me because it makes ME happier being this person.
This is good! Do more of it.
And it's always a struggle. Learning new behaviors just is. Keep at it.
Create a vision of who you want to be and keep moving toward it.
Visit some other threads here, post to them. You will build relationships and support. Visit mimivac, purgatory, nhmom, barelyfloating, bklynmom, zip, adinva.
We are all in this together.
Thank you, Labug. I will definitely look into some alt resources for support.
Yes, it is insane what a struggle it is to get out of old habits. However, one thing I am grateful for is the fact that I'm doing this on my own... not living with H anymore because I do think it would make it that much harder. There is a plus to being separated just for the sheer fact of not having the emotional distraction of your spouse being right there to watch your every move.
Not much to report. H still hasn't said a word to me about rescheduling our breakfast. He always seems happy when I see him and he's always nice. The drop off of the kids today was fast and uneventful.
These are the only times I get to see him. I still put on my happy face and I try to be up and ready for the day when he gets here. I've been doing a lot better at keeping things tidy. But have yet to organize the kid's toys which has been weighing on my shoulders ever since I moved in with my mom. And to make it worse, my S had two birthday parties this week so now he has a ton more to add to the pile. Looks like we're gonna have to get rid of some things. Total anxiety just thinking about it. My goal is to get this done tomorrow. We shall see.
I'm just wondering if anyone has had the experience of having your spouse totally and completely not talk about things at all for weeks and weeks and weeks on end. And acting like things are completely fine. I have this nagging feeling of just wanting to know what he's thinking and then I forget about it for a day and then I go right back to it again.
So many times I've been tempted to text him and ask him what he's thinking. But my first thought after that is, "no, you've come this far... you're doing really well... plus, is this going to push him further away or is it going to bring him closer?" And obviously it will probably push him away.
He is the KING of not talking about anything. For our whole marriage I have pretty much gotten just the surface of him. He just doesn't share his deepest thoughts... ever! For the most part he has always just agreed with what I say. And through this separation I have forced so much out of him that I never knew. It is quite astonishing.
I was even the one that brought up the subject of him not loving me anymore. I still, to this day, don't know if he would have ever said anything. This, I know, is something that must change if we stay together. I, like most women, need that emotional connection. And it cannot be forced, he needs to feel safe enough to want to share it with me. I hope and pray that one day our relationship can go to that level. Long roads ahead... wow...
I'm just wondering if anyone has had the experience of having your spouse totally and completely not talk about things at all for weeks and weeks and weeks on end. And acting like things are completely fine.
Sounds like he is just following the script.
All is not as it seems, I can assure you that.
His mask is firmly in place and he will not let you see beneath it.
You need to continue to live your life, letting him go.
I am afraid to say that he is very much at the start of this and has a very long ways to go.
Try not to push him away.
You have the right idea about this.
DO NOT TEXT or PURSUE, it will not work.
Come here and post instead.
He is the KING of not talking about anything. For our whole marriage I have pretty much gotten just the surface of him. He just doesn't share his deepest thoughts... ever! For the most part he has always just agreed with what I say. And through this separation I have forced so much out of him that I never knew. It is quite astonishing.
I'm married to someone very similar. We've now been separated a year and it continues. He has not initiated contact with me but for a few times. No relationship talk at all, no talk of divorce.
This is the gift of time to become the you you've always wanted to be. If H notices and likes it great, if not you have something valuable-YOU.
Lose the anger, (if it's there) and get into the mindset that it's over and go live your life.
Maybe Cadet can point you to his pursuer/distancer information.
Both of your posts are things I needed to hear.
I know what I'm going through and feeling is what most LBS's experience... one day you're on top of the world feeling like you're growing and learning so much as an individual and the next you're right back in a ditch wondering how in the world you got there. How in the world could the person you trust the most be the one who is causing all this pain?? It is THE biggest roller coaster ride EVER!!
At one point while we were separated I did have a date set up with another guy. I was at my wits end... just feeling like things were over and it may be the only thing that can help me move on. After arranging where to meet for dinner, I immediately felt completely wrong about doing it for several reasons and cancelled with him.
Has anyone else taken this route? I'm just curious about thoughts on that. Obviously, we have to do what feels right to us but sometimes doing something you wouldn't normally do may be just what you needed... IDK, I could be way off.
If u are asking about the dating it is not a good idea if u are trying to save the M. You will bring all that baggage into a new R and be back here DBing again. You did the right thing by canceling. Right now work on you and the things that got you here.
If u are asking about the dating it is not a good idea if u are trying to save the M. You will bring all that baggage into a new R and be back here DBing again. You did the right thing by canceling. Right now work on you and the things that got you here.
Thank you... I think you're very right. Do I really want to make a disaster out of a mess I'm already in? Not so much.
Maybe Cadet can point you to his pursuer/distancer information.
Here is the info that is on DB
Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=714209
Very interesting.
I had the worst dream last night. I confronted the OW face-to-face and she admitted to me that they were physical with each other. And H was totally disrespectful... I repeat, this was only a dream. But I woke up in the middle of the night having serious thoughts of asking him questions about his R with her. And feeling like I don't want this anymore. Couldn't have come at a worse time.
I found a friend that lives on my mom's street who's husband is in the same profession as my H and had the same thing happen with OW from work texting and becoming too close with him. This is probably a huge reason for the dream because of my conversation with her yesterday.
I will keep on, though... if he is the man I always thought he was, then he will nip this in the bud with OW. Time will only tell.
Don't you just hate those dreams?!?!!? I have found that I totally needed to detach myself from finding out any information about the OW in my situation. In my situation, he had an EA with a woman from work and it extremely hard not to want to know every bit of information, but sometimes it just makes me feel worse and then these crazy dreams happen.
I know what you mean about waiting to see if he's the man you always thought he was. I'm not too sure what goes through their heads when they do these things. You are right Time will only tell and hopefully things will get better between you and your H. I will pray and hope for you!!!
Yeah, my new friend mentioned something to me that was making me think... She asked if I thought anything was going on more than just a "friendship" between him and OW and I said "no" which she then asked "Do you think you just may not be ready to accept that?"
Hmmmmm... maybe not. I do trust my H but lately with the things I'm finding out about his feelings and how close he's become with this girl, maybe I am totally off. This is messed up!
I cleaned quite a bit yesterday and it felt good to get things done. I'm still struggling with my kids, though. I'm trying so hard not to lose my temper but after being with them all day long with no time for myself whatsoever... it is exhausting and hard to keep my cool. I generally always apologize right after but I wish I didn't have to make the apology in the first place.
I hate yelling at my kids. I hate the way I let them affect me. I should be able to control my emotions. I'm reading a book that talks about kids and power struggles and I completely get what the author is saying but have yet to master it. There should have been a class in High School that kids had to take on maintaining healthy relationships. Probably would do the world a lot of good.
Got one measly text from H two nights ago asking how my S's B-day went and how S was doing. My response, "We had a lot of fun. And he's doing well." He then said, "oh good :)"
Haven't heard anything from him since. One thing that makes me very sad and this is the pessimist in me... but what if he died tomorrow? His job is somewhat dangerous and I think about that a lot. Just wishing I had more time with him in case his days are few... I also feel like he would die with me not really knowing the true him. Which is a horrible feeling. So many unanswered questions.
I know the focus right now needs to be working on me. I'm continuing to exercise. And continuing to work on keeping things clean. The work with my kids is going to be a long road, I feel. Now that I'm living with my mom I'm realizing that I am so much like her and growing up, I didn't really like her. So awful to say but it just means I have to work that much harder to break the cycle.
I want to be someone my kids feel like they can always come to if they're ever in trouble. Not have to hide things from me because they think they're going to get in trouble. Major, major work needs to be done on my part.
just caught up on your sitch. wow. we have some similarities!
months ago, i was snooping through phone bills and discovered H had thousands of txts. there was a "friend" at work i suspected he had become a little too friendly with. not physically but definitely emotionally. it drove me insane thinking about what was going on.
in the end, what he was doing.. who he was talking to.. didn't change my situation and really wasn't something i could control. i had confronted him on it but.. he's still going to do what he's going to do.
focusing on the kids and strengthening your relationship w/ them is a great thing. don't let what's happening in your M have power over your relationship w/ them.
take care.
I see many similarities between our stories. Isn't it funny how we think we are unique individuals and the reality is that we are just repeating the same behavior people have been doing since time started. I love the DR book because it is like my life has been observed and documented by strangers.
I don't know if my W is seeing someone else, but all of the signs are there.
We are in the same boat. Trying to GAL all the while trying hard not to let the past slip away. Just keep up the good work and don't backslide. If I could give you a high five right now I would!
H just texted me and asked me if I wanted to go out to dinner with him. I need advice. The thing is I have a lot of time to think about it because he doesn't want to go out until after the end of the month. I guess things at work are going to be busy for him until then.
I know I shouldn't talk about the R. I just wonder if there are specific things anyone could share with me about where my thought process should be. This will help me prepare. Thanks, everyone!
"""He is the KING of not talking about anything. For our whole marriage I have pretty much gotten just the surface of him. He just doesn't share his deepest thoughts... ever! For the most part he has always just agreed with what I say.""
So much of what your wrote matches my H completely. Read No More Mr. Guy. Check out the web site. Your H has many deep psychological issues. Why did he let you treat him badly for years and not tell you he was hurting, and just walk out?? He needs to figure this out.
You need to continue on your path. I can completely relate to your anger issues. many things can help with that. IC with a good & experienced therapist, medication, 12 step programs, reading books like "Stop walking on eggshells", meditating, start trying different things and see which work for you.
As you know you can not make him see the light but you can love yourself more. Work on that.
Three kids, must be busy!! Be kind and gentle to yourself, what you are going through is not easy.
Why not go to dinner with him?? I think its a chance to show your changes.
H just texted me and asked me if I wanted to go out to dinner with him. I need advice. The thing is I have a lot of time to think about it because he doesn't want to go out until after the end of the month. I guess things at work are going to be busy for him until then.
I know I shouldn't talk about the R. I just wonder if there are specific things anyone could share with me about where my thought process should be. This will help me prepare. Thanks, everyone!
I guess I should be more clear... I did accept his invitation. But still concerned on where my thought process should be while on the date.
So much of what your wrote matches my H completely. Read No More Mr. Guy. Check out the web site. Your H has many deep psychological issues. Why did he let you treat him badly for years and not tell you he was hurting, and just walk out?? He needs to figure this out.
I ordered that book just today, blkynmom. Thank you so much for directing me to that... I think it will help a lot. I also purchased a book call The Enabler. It got good reviews on Amazon so we shall see.
I never would have thought my husband had psychological issues whatsoever because in so many ways he is so normal and happy. Well, obviously he wasn't that happy because look where we are right now... but you know what I mean. All along he was just trying to put up a front to make things better. How does a person live that way? I really am so curious to read that book to get some answers on that. I'm sure it will help him a lot in knowing why it is that he's so unhappy as well.
I know he realizes in this R that he is just as much to blame as I am. I know his dad has told him that several times before. So he is owning up to his faults in this. For that, I am grateful. He could easily see this as a one-sided thing that I am the only one that has changing to do. And we would probably be a lot worse off than we are now.
As for medication... I have since started to take some things and, wow, does it help. I recently was diagnosed with Adult ADD which would explain my struggle to focus on a task and get things done. It's crazy to know that I've been living with all of these crappy mental illnesses and just trying to cope with them and get by. When all along I could have been doing something about it. And that's where I wish my H would have taken a bit more initiative. Like... "Look, honey, obviously there is something wrong with you, what can we do to help you?" I would have loved to have had that conversation years ago. (I know that sounds kinda harsh, but it was obvious so it wasn't like I was going to get all defensive about it... just needed his support.)
Hopefully these types of conversations will be able to come up in the future. Still would love some advice as to where to keep my thought process on our date in a couple weeks if anyone would love to share.
You have babies, you can definitely turn your relationship with them around!
I have young adults and I've been able to create a very different R with them. And both of them have validated that to me this past week.
Keep digging inside yourself. My best question to myself when pausing before flying off the handle: How important is it?
But first you have to learn the pause.
You can do this!
But first you have to learn the pause.
Ah, yes, I get this. It probably would be a good thing for me to use in my marriage as well. Then I'm not saying things I would regret later.
I will be working on this.
Labug, I'm glad that you were able to turn things around with your R's with your children especially with how much older they are. This just tells me it's never too late. Great advice.
Sidenote: I had a dream last night that I was pregnant and delivering a baby and the man sitting with me helping me along was not my H. I immediately woke up and thought he is slipping away from me. I don't even dream of us together anymore. I then had a second dream where I was also pregnant and soon to have the baby and he kept leaving the room to talk on his cell phone with other women. I was crying and screaming at him, wishing that he could understand how much that was hurting me and he just kept rolling his eyes in annoyance. It is so hard to keep my mind in reality and out of this dream world because they feel so real.
He has disappointed me so much and doesn't anyone think it's a little weird that he would invite me to go to dinner with him in two weeks? Why wouldn't he just bite the bullet and go with me this week? That is strange. Like he needs a whole another two weeks to prepare himself? His work isn't that needy on his days off that he can't take a little time to spend some time with his W. But whatev... just bitter this morning.
I'm still grateful for the invite but the timeframe seems a bit ridiculous.
The things you learn here are for your whole life, not just your kids or your marriage.
Picture the person you want to be and start moving toward that. Begin to state directly to yourself what you want as well as what you don't want.
Picture the person you want to be and start moving toward that. Begin to state directly to yourself what you want as well as what you don't want.
I will be seriously making a list about this in my journal today. Thank you...
H came to pick up the kids today. He looked really good and happy. It's times like these that remind me why I'm going through so much to keep us together. He is so worth it. We really have such a great little family together. I know he must feel this.
He has mentioned thoughts of getting a D (last time he mentioned this was the end of Jan.) but has never filed and for that I feel really blessed. I think he realizes just as much as I do that we have a lot to lose if we call it quits now.
We had to do some adjusting with car seats for the kids before he left so I went out to his car to help him with that. Then I went around to all of the kids to give them all their hugs and kisses and he waited behind me to give me a hug when I was done. That made me happy. Babysteps.
I am feeling good right now. I am excited to have a couple days without the kids to read these books that I've purchased and to continue to work out. At first, giving him the kids for as long as I was, was killing me. However, I was still living in our house by myself and I'm now living with my mom which just helps ease the pain of feeling lonely. Especially at night. I feel very lucky that my mom has been here for me at such a hard time.
I am happy that he gave you a hug and that you are feeling good right now. I, sometimes, think I need someone to live with me too, because the loneliness kicks in a lot.
I'm glad he has not mentioned D to you since January. Keep looking at those baby steps. I know that's what I need to do!
My H was sooooooooo normal and soooooooo happy. I cant believe I didnt see something was wrong
Getting a hug is huge. Having a date huger! Count your blessings.
You know how I was debating about what I should do for work? Well, my mom just offered me a job today working for her business. It actually may be the perfect answer because I can still be around for my kids and make money while I'm living with her. Kind of a win-win. Weird how our prayers are answered when we're patient and let things take their course, right?
I texted H to see if he was able to talk about it tonight but he was on his way to work so I said I'll talk to him tomorrow. I feel I need his input on this just for the sake of knowing if he'll be available to take the kids a bit more so I can train.
We will see...
Things have been taking a good turn. I can tell that the space that I've been giving H has been good for him.
I actually hung out with his sister last night and had a really good talk with her. She said she hasn't talked to him in a long time about anything but she gets the feeling that he wants to work on things between us. I can feel that from him too. I had a lot of anxiety on my way over to her house but it felt so good to be able to see her again. She is one of my favorite people in the world... but obviously I have to keep my distance because she reminds me too much of my H. And she totally gets that.
H dropped of the kids today and actually stayed around for a little bit and talked with me. It was really nice to feel him not seem so rushed and NEEDING to get away from me. And we did end with a hug which was instigated by him again. Lots of small little things happening... but I hope it keeps up this way.
I read almost the entire time while my kids were gone a book called Parents, Kids, and Power Struggles. Wow, if you want to learn how to connect with your little children, this is one I would recommend. I'm already feeling changes between us. I really missed them while they were gone and it helps me appreciate them so much more. That is definitely a blessing inside all of this madness.
Sorry... the book is actually called KIDS, Parents and Power Struggles. Just in case anyone is trying to look it up.
I'm glad your H stayed longer the other day when taking the kids. I'm sure that felt amazing!!! And the hug....BEST THING EVER!
So my question is for Accuracy...
I read Hopeful321's ENTIRE thread last night. I know, I need to get a life. But I couldn't help but connect with all of your advice throughout her story. I would have PM'd you but this site doesn't allow it so this was the only way I could think of to ask you for help.
I have a date planned with H in a couple weeks and I have been pretty "dark" throughout the last month and a half. I still have to see him every week to exchange kids but not a lot has been going on besides that.
I would really just love to have some advice as to where to keep my thought process throughout the date. Going "dark" is a lot easier than dealing with your S face-to-face and implementing all your 180's and such.
If you don't have time, no worries. I just thought I would ask...
Thanks!
JKS
Happy to help JKS,
I'm very happy for Hopeful, glad you found her story, although your sitch is quite different. I read your whole thread, you write very well and you have been through a lot!
FWIW I believe the major cause of your problems is the EA. My W did the same thing and when they are involved with someone else, they are "gone". All you can do is tread water and not make it worse.
Your worst enemy are your expectations, because we believe we are owed more respect from our spouse, and we also believe that our incredible efforts should yield improvement -- when they don't its very frustrating and depressing.
In terms of your date, that's a high risk scenario when OW is still involved, because your heart will drive you toward pursuit and away from DB, and there is literally no graceful escape if you start to fall apart.
A few things to think about:
1) You can say "no" for now and leave it at that. Having him wonder why may very much help. If you think about having a boyfriend who cheated on you in high school or college, would you agree to a date if they were still seeing OW? Probably not, because you'd be in a much better position of personal strength.
2) You can counter-propose -- offer to go for a walk or do something where you can gracefully bail out if you don't like how its going
3) Decide to go, but have NO expectations -- very hard, requires maximum strength. You need to apply a "friend standard", as in discuss nothing you wouldn't discuss with a casual friend. Maintain your emotional distance at all costs.
I know how you feel, you really want to go and you want it to be great. You want it to be the first step on the road back. This thinking is your enemy. The shortest distance back is actually a straight line in the other direction.
So, how strong do you feel? Can you pull off friend standard? Can you act as if for the whole date? If not, don't agree to dinner. If you're struggling and feeling weak, say no, that takes the least discipline and has the shortest duration. If you do that, do NOT explain, just say no.
Have faith that if he asked this time, he will ask again, and in between he will be thinking about you.
If you go and start pursuing, you will be shelved and out of mind, and will have to fight your way back.
Remember, he was unfaithful, you can reconcile on your schedule, not his.
I would be interested in your opinion on this, the more I know you the more I can help.
Accuray
Well, found out tonight that H has been sleeping with OW...
The story continues... but it's late. I will update you tomorrow. Wow, what a night.
Quite frankly that's what I was afraid of. That's what explains H's behavior versus the complaints he cited. Take the complaints seriously and address them for yourself if you believe it will make you a better person, but don't go into it thinking that if you address all those complaints that H will come back.
So now H is conflicted, he knows what he is doing is wrong, and he's going to struggle to create rationalizations including blaming you for everything so that he doesn't feel like the bad guy.
He also knows he's out on a limb. The ideal for him is that he can see where this goes, have his fun, and when it doesn't work out, he can just come home to you and you will take him back.
You need to remove that safety net and make him believe that you won't be just waiting around -- that you are done crying, you have your own agenda, and you are going to pursue it. Make no accusatory or shaming comments, just act as if H's actions hold no sway over you.
Finally this is not a reflection on you and it is not a contest. OW id a fantasy and H is a fantasy to OW. Sooner or later reality will creep in. They don't see the real versions of each other, but they will!
I would not go on that date. While OW is involved there is much higher chance of making your sitch worse than better. Make him miss you and wonder what you are up to.
Finally, I really recommend talking to a telephone coach on this site. I know you said you can't afford it, but it's much cheaper than divorce, will make you feel better, and can give you better guidance.
Take good care of yourself, you are not alone.
Accuray
This post is going to be long... wow, where to start...
Accuracy, I was about to respond to your first post to me regarding the date saying that I don't know whether OW is really an issue. That my H is the type of person that doesn't do those kinds of things... blah, blah, blah. And then my mom came downstairs and turned on a movie and so I decided to take a break from the computer and watch the movie with her.
5 min into the movie, one of my best friends calls and asks me how I'm doing and how things are going with H. I immediately have this weird feeling. I said we are ok, why? She then states that her husband's cousin lives across the street from OW. The cousin sent my friend a message on FB and my friend read it to me. It stated that she saw on my FB status that I was separated and that it wasn't any of her business but she just wanted to let her know that she sees my H's car outside OW's house all the time.
And one day she saw OW come outside in only her towel to get a bag out of my H's car. I had to have my friend read it again because my mind was so foggy by this point. I then had to immediately hang up and call my H.
I asked him how he was doing and then started to ask him if he was staying at OW's house. He said, no. I told him that someone saw OW come outside to his car to get something out of it in her towel and asked is this true? He then said, sort of. I then asked are you sleeping with her? He couldn't answer me. He was at work and told me he would call me back in 15 min. I just said, I guess you've made your decision and he said, no, I haven't. I will call you back.
Well, obviously after that moment my mind is going crazy and I'm freaking out. So I call his mom to ask her if he is coming home every night from work or not. And she said, yes. He's always here and he's always here in the morning. I don't know what to believe and start to think maybe it's a rumor or I'm jumping to conclusions, but I am freaking out.
H then calls on the other line and I answer. I ask him again if he's sleeping with her and he says, yes. I immediately go outside and start screaming and crying at him. Remember the neighbor I had the convo with about A's and women that work with our H's? She just happened to be sitting outside on her front porch talking on her phone and yells out to me, what's going on?
I am screaming and freaking out. I don't really remember much more of what was said on the phone but H then says, can I come talk to you? So I said yes. I ran over to the neighbor's house to tell her what was going on and then my mom comes outside and starts hugging me and telling me not to let him tell me he's sorry. Obviously, she is very hurt by this too.
I talk with them for a moment trying to pull my thoughts together and figure out what to say or do when he gets here. He pulls up and I get in his car and he starts to explain to me that he his miserable. He thought being with OW was going to make him happy because she had all the qualities that he wanted to see in me... motivated, gets things done, etc. But he soon realized once I started to leave him alone completely that he missed me. He missed his family.
He said at one point he thought he was falling in love with her but soon realized that he really wasn't in love with her at all. And he was so angry at himself for allowing himself to go there and he said he wanted to die everyday. He felt like he had destroyed everything and was so afraid to say anything to me because he was afraid of losing me. And so the purpose of going out to dinner was for him to fess up, so he says.
Apparently, the PA started in January and has been going on until this last Weds. I am still in shock by this. This person is not my H. And I kept telling him that. The H that I know would never do that to his W. And I'm telling you my H is one of those people that everybody loves. He's so well-rounded and willing to help anyone he can. This is was attracted me to him in the first place. He has always been so loyal and never lied.
Well, he lied to me so many times as I think back on our conversations regarding him and her. It is mind-blowing. He has hit rock bottom.
So he tells me that all he wants to do is end it. And he has no idea if I can ever forgive him. I ask him if this is really what he wants. Because part of me can't help but wonder how easy it would be for him to just ditch out on me again and go back to her. Apparently, she divorced her H 5 months ago and my H failed to mention that to me for fear of how I would react. And once that happened she pursued him even more because we were already separated.
Lovely, how a person can feel that it's perfectly ok to destroy a family for their own personal welfare. I hate her! He then told me that he will put our phones back together so I can see everything he's doing and he wants to be completely honest with me about everything. He will make it so he doesn't have to see her at work and he knows that once he tells her, she will want nothing to do with him anyway.
He also stated that in Nov. he tried to fill out divorce papers but couldn't do it. It didn't feel right to him. He feels so awful for everything he's put us through especially our kids because I had to change their schools when I moved in with my mom. He has noticed that things have not been the same for D6 at her new school. She used to be happy and excited to go and now she walks in very slowly and doesn't really care too much to be there. I have noticed this too.
He said he does want to be with me and wants to make this work. He wants us to find a place together and give our kids a stable place to live.
We have a CD that we made for our wedding that has all of our songs on it and my D6 loves to hear them. And she asks my H to listen to them all the time. He told me that he cries every time he hears them now.
I told him that he knows that I love him and would find it very hard to turn my back on him now. But I have a hard time knowing if he's going to do this to me again and I just don't know if I can go through that kind of pain again. I told him that he's going to have to show me by his actions that he wants this. I also told him that I've been very happy lately. I feel empowered because I have realized that I can be truly happy without him.
He told me that he was always so happy to see me recently. I always had a big smile on my face and he said it always made his day. (This is where the DBing helped even though our interactions were few and far between and very short, he saw the difference in me.)
So you see, this outcome is so bittersweet for me. It took my H sleeping with another woman to realize my worth in his life. It is sick and awful to think about and I know we have long roads ahead of us but quite honestly, I was not expecting him to be so sure about his feelings for me.
So for now, he is telling OW that it's over. And we will have to wait and see how the rest goes. I have the biggest headache from crying last night and not being able to sleep. I will update soon.
Ouch, as awful as that story is, that's a "storybook confession" from H that very few LBS's get. Congratulations on your DB work!
After my W's EA, even though we have reconciled she's never apologized or even acknowledged that what she did was wrong. That doesn't seem to happen much, so that's great news for your sitch!
Rebuilding your trust is a process that is often two steps forward and one step back and will be very hard on both of you.
I recommend you Google for "Affair Recovery", there are many web sites that spell out practices that will make your recovery easier for both of you. Two of the most important things are that (1) H must vow to go "no contact" with OW now and forever, including changing jobs if that's what it takes, and (2) H must provide complete transparency to you WRT phone, email, and travel schedule. Number 2 is not a permanent arrangement, just until you are able to rebuild your mutual trust.
Now, WRT H's affair. First of all, EVERY marriage has issues and weaknesses. This would still be an excellent time to evaluate your own contribution to the issues in the marriage. It's best if you don't look at the affair as "all H's fault", but instead look at it as a crisis in your marriage that you BOTH contributed to. If you view it that way, it's not all work H has to do to make it up to you, it's a shared challenge that you both need to strive to have a better marriage. I do believe you've started down this road, don't let H's confession be an excuse to give up your own changes -- keep working at it!
Also, remember that H is human, not some monster. If you can "normalize" H's affair it will help you to get to forgiveness. We all like attention from the opposite sex, we all like to feel attractive, we all like to feel wanted and needed, those forces have a very strong pull on all of us. If you were not completely satisfied with H, and you worked with an attractive man who you really got along well with, who made you laugh, and who made you feel good about yourself, it's reasonable to expect that you'd enjoy spending time with that person. If you then came home to H and he was involved with the kids, working on paying bills, and just not spending that much time with you, then OM may seem much more fun and interesting to be with by comparison. It's usually not a decision to be unfaithful, it's a slippery slope that people slide down an imperceptible amount each day until they realize they are way over the line and don't know how they got there. He didn't do it to hurt you, he made some bad mistakes, and he is human. This does not excuse him or say that it's ok, it just says that "it happens, we're human".
Three suggestions for you:
1) There is a good book called "After the Affair" that can help you navigate your path forward, I recommend it.
2) There is another book called "Why Good People Have Affairs" that may help you understand what's happened. Don't read that now, it's too soon, but maybe pick it up in 4-6 months.
3) You will need to establish with H a mutual "contract" about what exactly will be considered "over the line" going forward. You should agree that if either of you are feeling tempted, that you will talk about it openly and honestly and that it will be OK to do so. In terms of where that line is drawn, there are some excellent resources on Pat Love's website. Go to the "Downloads" section. There is a word document about what defines an "office spouse". Download that and review it. She also has some excellent questionnaires that you can work through together to help you to reconnect.
Good luck and let me know how else I can help.
Accuray
Thank you, Accuracy. After I've had more time to think this morning I have had mixed emotions about everything so your post has really helped put things into perspective.
In regard to the troubles I contributed to our R, I did recognize those with H last night and told him it isn't the type of person I want to be. And we did discuss how the communication between us needs to change dramatically.
Thank you for the tips, I will definitely be looking into those books and I will continue posting for further support. Wow, I am exhausted!!
I am so sorry that you found that out. It is good that your H apologized to you and is willing to work things out and has stated his love for you! That is also a positive.
I understand where you're coming from that you have so many mixed emotions about the PA. I, as of right now, don't know yet if I can get over my H's PA. However, stay strong and if you want the marriage to work, you have to forgive and yes, like accuray said...figure out what you contributed to the M. It looks like you've already begun to do that, which is great!
I really hope things work out for you and your H.
Having a rough night... the reality of H's affair is hitting me. He hasn't really contacted me at all today. He said he would be ending things with OW but I can't help but worry that he might have gone over to her house and ended up sleeping with her again. If so, I'm pretty sure I can't trust him anymore. And I don't know if I want this R. He has tainted it so badly that it may be impossible for me to get over. I know I just need to talk to him again but I am not going to pursue whatsoever. He needs to prove to me that HE wants to work on this. This [censored]!!
So H texted me about the kids today and I started to ask him a lot of questions that have been bugging me today. One being that I wanted to know if he had slept with OW in OUR bed while I was gone on my trip and she had come over to help him move. He said no. Nothing happened while I was gone.
I then asked him if he had talked to her yet, he said no, he's been so sick and was called out to work at 4:00 this morning so he hasn't had the energy and has been sleeping all day.
I asked him if his parents knew about his A. He said no.
Then I told him that I felt like the ultimate breakdown of our M was because he was so focused on being with OW that he couldn't see anything in me. No matter how hard he tried, he kept comparing me to her and because she was "everything he ever wanted" then there was no way I could even compete. And I told him that he is a hypocrite because he kept telling me that he wanted me to find happiness within myself when all along he was trying to seek out happiness through someone else. He was relying on her to make him happy. So therefore, he sleeps with her to find his happiness. Was it there?? NOPE!! He agreed with that statement, btw.
Sure glad he got the chance to try that out. Wish we all had that luxury of sleeping around until we find what makes us happy. This is such a messed up world we live in. What ever happened to self control and human decency?? Can you tell I'm angry tonight?
I have no idea how to handle myself right now. In a way I don't want to make him feel worse because I know he has enough guilt to last him a lifetime but in another way I feel like why should I make this easy on him? I am the one who was chewed up, spit out, stomped on and then rolled over by a freight train. I am emotionally exhausted and a couple days ago I felt like we were making some headway and now this brings everything back to square one again.
I am so worried that he's going to change his mind at any moment. Any moment! He's out the door and ready to give up. He's already done it once, why wouldn't he do it again? And now he knows that he has someone to fall back on if we don't work out. This is bad. I don't know how God could think that I'm strong enough to handle this. I am a mess...
Looked up "affair recovery" on Google and found this...
"The Lonely Hearts Club"
This type of affair is characterized by two individuals who believe they are "in love". With this type, the betrayer believes that he or she has fallen in love, and feels powerless over powerful emotions. It is not uncommon for the betrayer to feel guilty over what they are doing, but at the same time they feel they are no longer in love with their spouse and know that they will never be happy unless they are with their lover. This type of relationship frequently develops from an existing friendship that begins to deepen as the boundaries between the two individuals weaken. It is not necessarily based on sex. In fact, the power driving the relationship is the strong emotions generated by the growing romance. In this type of affair, the betrayer has most likely made the decision to leave their marriage. They realize that they can never be happy unless they get to be with the one they love.
Unlike the Low Rent Rendezvous, this type of affair often indicates a deeper problem in the marriage. Let me be clear - the marital problem is not the cause of the affair, but there are defects that at the very least, serve as inhibitors to the betrayer's motivations to consider working on the marriage.
Characteristics:
The betrayer believes wants out of the marriage.
They feel they are in love with their affair partner, and are willing to sacrifice life as they know it for the opportunity to be with their lover.
Typically, this type of affair is a long-term relationship that has developed into a romance.
Frequently, there is a pattern of the betrayer swinging back and forth between the marriage and the affair partner. When they are at home trying to do what is right, they are miserable and feel they will never be happy. When they are with their affair partner, they are ecstatic, but may be feeling so guilty that they can't stand it so they move back home only to feel miserable and to realize once again that they can never be happy unless they go back to the affair partner. This dance of insanity can continue for years.
The betrayer often seems incapable of making a decision as to what they are going to do. Even though the betrayer doesn't want to be in the marriage, other factors may keep them from choosing to divorce. For example, feelings of guilt or of failure may cause them to stay. There may also be strong feelings regarding what is best for the kids, so they may decide to stay for the children. A lack of commitment to the marriage, but choosing not to leave, is not the solution to a country club affair.
I am worried that my H just feels so much guilt that he can't stand it and therefore is trying to feel something for me. I'm having a hard time believing that what he's saying is for real. I mean, just a couple months ago he was telling me that there was no way he was going to ever feel that way for me again and he actually had sex with me and told me it didn't feel right at all. How does that just change in two months? I am lost... I cannot and will not go through another two years of battling him going back and forth between me and OW because he cannot make up his mind.
What do I do?
Btw, I found out today that my H helped OW move in to her new place when she got divorced in Nov. Which is the same month that he went to get the papers to file. During November we were spending a lot more time with each other because of the holidays. But he was still finding time to go be with her. He was already planning his A and once she had her divorce over and done with, it was fine for them to do whatever they wanted. Nevermind that he was still married.... Ahhhh!! I need to stop!!
Yes, you need to stop.
Is the affair a deal-breaker for you? It'll probably take you a while to figure that out but hen you will have a better idea of what to do.
Let him contact you.
I think labug is trying to tell you that you're more than welcome to vent here all you want, in fact it's encouraged. Better to get it out here than elsewhere.
But, also, that you're stuck in the mire. This is consuming you, and understandably so. But you've got to get your head above water in order to be able to see clearly. Take some time and vent and scream and cry, but knowing that you ultimately need to climb out of this on one side or the other. The sooner, the better, for YOU. This is where the GAL aspect of DB really comes into play.
Also, Accuray gave you some really good suggestions on a healthy perspective of an A. I don't think anyone ever really plans it. Few people go into M thinking, "I'm 100% devoted, at least until things get stale, and then I'll just have an A to spice things up." They happen. They develop over time, usually unintentionally. I like to relate it to those extra pounds we put on when we aren't paying attention and just living life. One day we step on the scale and are shocked, wondering "How'd that happen!!" I'm not trying to minimize the sitch or your pain. A's are serious business no matter how it happens. Now, you just need to decide if it's a dealbreaker for you.
One word of advice ... just make sure that you don't make your decision rashly, driven by your current emotions. Otherwise, a year or two down the line, you're liable to be in the same boat as your H thinking, "What did I do??!!! This is not what I wanted!"
(((jks)))
Hi JKS,
Take a deep breath! You should expect to go through a period of intense hurt right now -- know that it is temporary and will pass, but you must go through it. For me, I couldn't eat, I had dry heaves, I couldn't sleep, it was awful -- but it passed! Know that in 6 months, no matter what happens, you'll be in a much much better place, you have to get through to then. I got a prescription for anti-anxiety meds from my GP which did help somewhat. You should expect to go through waves of deep hurt. Eventually they will come less frequently, they won't last as long, but the last thing to go will be the intensity.
Here are a few other things to think about: (1) you will never know everything that happened (2) your imagination will fill in the worst possible interpretation of events and fill in gaps in your knowledge in the worst possible way. You will assume that everything was more dire than it was. You've seen this already with imagining that OW was having sex in your bed. That came from your imagination, and there will be more of that.
Trying to know everything will torture you. You'll ask a question and get an answer, then you'll obsess about that, and then you'll want to know tons of add on details, then you'll want to know how frequently it happened, etc. etc. etc. and unfortunately, that NEVER ends until you decide to end it.
Think also about H -- remember, believe half of what they do and nothing they say. H says he'd like to recommit, he may still very much be torn. If you present him with guilt, shame, and recrimination each time you interact with him, and OW is earnestly trying to get him to commit to her by telling him how wonderful he is, you're creating a difficult dynamic. When you discuss the details of H's affair you are making withdrawals from your marital "love bank", because those interactions make him feel like cr@p. Be sure you're making deposits as well by virtue of continuing to exhibit 180's and positive changes.
You will have the opportunity to ask your questions and voice your outrage, but you may want to find the strength to hold off until you know that H has gone "no contact" and that OW has moved on, and that H has started to see more positives in a future with you by virtue of your changes. I guess what I'm telling you is that you're getting positive signals from H, but don't wave the victory flag yet and start acting on the basis that you can extract your pound of flesh for his affair. For your questions -- journal them. Batch them up, review them, revise them, and be sure when you talk to H about them you are succinct. I would "schedule" these discussions with H by giving him advanced warning that you want to ask some questions and give him some time to emotionally prepare. Once again, I strongly recommend you hold off for now, until your relationship is on better footing and OW is conclusively gone.
H pictured a better future without you -- you've been doing a good job so far of showing him that he's made some assumptions about you that may no longer hold. Continue to do so, you need to be a wife that only a fool would leave.
Do not gloss over this part of what you posted above:
...the marital problem is not the cause of the affair, but there are defects that at the very least, serve as inhibitors to the betrayer's motivations to consider working on the marriage.
Keep repeating to yourself, OW is not the cause, she's the symptom. There was room for OW because things were broken between you and H's needs (and probably yours too) were not being adequately met. If you focus on OW and the affair, then those root causes will not get their due consideration and you will be back here.
It's easy to feel indignant and self-righteous about what's happened, and to take out your anger on H. That will feel good in the moment, but as Crazyville points out, it may not feel good longer term, and you need to take the longer view right now.
Do a gut check -- what do you REALLY want? Do you want H back and your marriage improved, or do you want to punish H for what he has done and move on alone? Consider that, decide, and then make sure your actions are consistent with your goals.
Accuray
Thank you, Accuracy. I am at an all time low right now. I got sick this morning and H is sick so he still hasn't picked up the kids so I am physically sick and exhausted and emotionally sick and exhausted.
I know in my gut that I want this marriage. I just feel if I focus on that then I am setting myself up to get hurt again. I was in such a good place mentally and was getting used to the idea of H being out of my life and now I have to start all over again.
One thing that has been a huge concern of mine is that my H left our religion when he left me. This is huge because in our religion, like most, we do not believe in adultery. And there are severe consequences for having one. A huge repentance process that he will have to go through. I'm concerned because I want to be with someone who shares my same spiritual and religious views and wants to raise a family with these views. When we were married, we were both on the same page with this.
I struggle because I want to express how important this is to me still... and let him know that had he stayed committed to our religion, God would never have led him down this path. If he still believes in his heart that our religion is still not for him then I don't know that I can continue with him.
So my struggle is to know whether to bring this up right now or not.
There are three things to think about here:
1) Do you want to be married to H and go forward with him or not? Spend some time thinking about this and decide on your timeline, there is no rush, and there is no right answer, only the answer that is right for you.
If you do decide to move forward with H, then you must accept him as he is, which means that whatever religion he chooses to follow has to be OK with you, you cannot control that. You can decide not to be with him if the religion is a dealbreaker, but it's not fair to H to expect him to change because of what you believe, and it's generally not a good idea to start a relationship with the expectation that you can change the other person or that they will change to suit your desires.
The only person you can change is yourself, and by changing yourself, you can change the dynamics of your relationship, but that is different than changing H. My guidance would be to ask yourself could you love H and be married to him even if he did NOT embrace your religion, or would that be a deal breaker for you?
2) You feel you are setting yourself up to be hurt again because your trust has been destroyed. Of course you can't trust him right now, he's proven himself untrustworthy and you haven't forgiven him. What I can tell you is that if you work together on your marriage, and ensure you're on a path where your mutual needs are being met, trust CAN be restored. As a matter of fact, your marriage can be stronger than it was before for having gone through this ordeal. You will be better educated and more aware of what it takes to make a marriage good than someone who never had to struggle, that's the gift you take from this. Read "The Five Love Languages" if you haven't already. If you can apply that book to your relationship, you can pretty much "affair proof" your marriage. Therefore, if you decide to go forward, you will need to have faith that you can forgive H eventually, and that you will be able to trust H eventually. You don't need to do those things now, but you have to have faith that it can happen.
3) Affairs are as old as marriage. The fact that your religion has a prescription for them is because it's been a constant problem throughout history. I listened to a great audio program, I believe by David Schnarch talking about marriage. He said that as humans, we are programmed to want to have many sexual partners, but we are also programmed to want to pair bond and enjoy emotional security. This is a natural tension that is part of who we are. He said that we all face a "two choice dilemma", we want the ability to engage in many exciting romances for ourselves, but we also want a spouse who will be faithful to us to deliver emotional security -- so we're tempted by the best of both worlds. When we get married, we're making a contract that says "I will forgo pursuing the romances I want in exchange for the emotional security of pair bonding". That's not to say that the desire for new romance goes away, just that we're agreeing not to pursue it.
Now as to whether "God led him down this path", that's something I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole
Accuray
Wow... thank you. I think you might be my saving grace right now. I will be thinking about all of this and I'm going to try my hardest not to let my emotions get the best of me.
I agree that we can be so much stronger for having gone through this and I know he sees that too. What a mess...
Also know that things could be sooooo much worse -- I don't know if that helps or not. The people on this board who seem to suffer the most are witness to ongoing affairs that last a year or more. During that time, the spouse just wants out, so the LBS are not able to ask ANY questions, or project any anger, or anything else if they want to continue to DB. They just have to smash it down, "act as if", and eventually learn to detach while their spouse continues to go about their business.
In my sitch, my W was non-apologetic. From her perspective, she was going to ask me for a divorce anyway, so having an affair wasn't really a betrayal. Had I expressed anger or tried to shame her, she just would have left.
In addition, it was OM who decided to end the affair. Either he got caught by his W, or had a crisis of conscious and he went "no contact". That left my W hurt, angry, and grieving her lost love. She took a lot of that out on me at the point that I was hurting the most, so I had to deal with my own grief and hers on top.
I think it's a very good sign that your H says he wants to end it and is being conciliatory. Often for people who get on this board, their spouse has almost no feelings left for them, just a very week flame that is easily snuffed out by the slightest missteps.
It does appear that your H does love you -- you had some issues in your marriage and he made a very bad mistake. If you love him and he loves you, that's a great place to start from.
Accuray
This is an email my H sent to my friend today regarding her telling me about the A:
"First off I want to tell you how sorry I am for putting you in the position that I put you in. To say that I am ashamed of what I did would be an understatement. I have made decisions that have utterly crushed my family and I will forever be ashamed of what I did. I also want to Thank you for telling JKS. I don't know the specifics of everything you told her but it was enough. This may sound strange but I am so relieved that I was confronted. I have been trying to find the courage to tell her but I was so scared to do so. I have been unhappy for a long time and I thought that making some of the decisions that I made would some how make me happy again. I was wrong. I miss my family more that anything and all I want is to have them back. I know that JKS and I have a lot of work to do in order for this to work and I especially have a lot of work in order to gain her trust again. I also hope that I haven't lost you guys as friends.
Again, Thank you for telling her and I am so sorry for putting you guys in that position."
This made me happy to see that he was being so forthcoming with our friends about what just happened.
He never picked up the kids today because he has bronchitis and is contagious. I didn't want to risk that with our kids. However, I have been so sick and today was absolutely miserable in that regard.
He did mention that he works a day shift on Friday and would like to go out as a family Friday night. I said, ok. I just hope he talks to OW before then. I don't find it ok moving forward without that happening first. But, obviously, I don't want to pressure him to do it and will wait for him to come to me regarding that. He did tell me on the night I found out that he was going to call her that night. But I think he got too sick that he just didn't have the energy. He has been sick a lot lately... now that I think about it. His immune system is reflecting his emotional turmoil.
I did tell my friend's cousin that if she ever sees H's car at OW's house that I would really appreciate it if she would tell me right away. If he continues on with it then I know where we stand.
But, yes, I'm going to continue to DB and not lash out at him. He is human and I get that. I immediately felt when I was texting him last night that our dynamic was going back to how it was when we first separated. And I did not like that feeling. I don't want to go there.
I do feel lucky that he is so willing to work on this now and mentioned today that hopefully we can work things out soon so we won't have to continue to go back and forth with our kids. But I think babysteps for now. Hanging out and feeling our way through it and talking things out in a mature way as the issues arise.
I was definitely having a moment from my last posts and I'm sure they won't be my last but right now I'm ok and I feel good about us.
It sounds like you have a wonderful reconciliation opportunity before you -- congratulations! It doesn't often work out that way. That said, you've also gone through a terrible amount of stress, so proceed at your own pace, take care of yourself, and find someone to help you work through the grief and anger!
Accuray
Today has been good. I was texting with H and began to ask about what his plans were with OW. Meaning when he was going to talk to her. He said he wanted to talk to her face-to-face because he felt like that was the right thing to do and he wouldn't have a chance to do that until this Thurs. I told him I was somewhat concerned about this because it seemed to me that he just wanted to do it to comfort her, maybe give her one last kiss and hug and end it. I don't think I would be ok with that.
He said there would be no comforting involved because she will just be super angry and will probably want to punch him. I told him that if he does it that I think it would be best to meet her in a public setting, not go to her house and asked if he agreed... he said yes.
I asked him if he had talked to her at all this week and he did say that he told her he would let her borrow some equipment for work a while back and she would be needing it tomorrow so he gave it to her. I asked, so she came over? He said, no, my dad took it to her. I said I'm not even comfortable with that. So then I started to feel like he's saying all these things of ending it but it has yet to happen and he's still doing things for her. So I started texting with a friend and told her what was going on and had accidentally sent one of my messages to my H. I immediately said, I'm sorry, I'm just really upset right now... He said, who are you talking to?
I didn't respond for an hour because by that time I was on the phone with my friend. From the conversation with her I basically made the decision that I need to set some boundaries with H. First, being that if he wants to start hanging out with me and doing stuff as a family then he needs to end this with OW first.
I ended up calling him and began very slowly to choose my words carefully. I told him that I didn't want him to feel like I was telling him what to do but it just can't work if he continues these ties with her. He explained why he had to lend her the equipment because he couldn't just leave her hanging being that she would need it tomorrow and he hasn't even talked to her yet. So whatev on that. But I did tell him about the boundary with us hanging out and he said, fair enough.
We had a very long conversation, several times I was about to end it because I felt like I didn't have anything more to say but he kept saying what are you thinking? And I kept asking questions about what was going on. He was very forthcoming with giving me the information. He said he did talk with his dad last night about it. Obviously, he was very disappointed. I told him that I was scared that he's going to change his mind because he's been changing it so much over the past 7 months. He said, all I can say is there is a lot of work that needs to be done by the two of us. And if things end up continuing the same way they did before, then it's not going to work. I said, I agreed, and that was what I was trying to tell him all along.
I told him how angry I was that he made me feel so guilty for asking him questions about what his intentions were with OW. In the past, he kept telling me to drop it and stop focusing on things that I couldn't control. I told him that all along I was right and you made me feel like crap. And now I have to think about all the things that you guys have done together and I don't want to think about it and shouldn't have to.
Throughout the entire conversation he was very apologetic and understanding and honest. He also mentioned that he was looking forward to the future now. Before all of this he was dreading future events to come because of the fact of sharing the kids... ie, our D6's birthday in a month and the 4th of July and just summer in general.
After we hung up he texted me and said thank you for talking with me. I'm sorry that it brings up all these sad thoughts. I then told him thank you for talking with me and thank you for being so honest. He said, I've been working very hard on that. I told him that I feel that I am partial to blame for that because I was always so quick to get angry whenever he came to me about things. I now want him to feel safe about sharing things with me knowing that I will be understanding.
So then for the rest of the day we texted on and off. He kept telling me things about what he wanted to do in the future. Like he wanted to go on a cruise with me. And he still wants to build our dream house. This makes me so happy because I can tell that he actually sees a future with me and he's excited about it.
He then called me tonight and said he had a thought and wanted to know if I would want to come to his work while they're doing a training in a couple of weeks and take pictures (I'm a photographer). He thought it would be cool for me to see what they do up close and for them to have some cool pictures for them to use for a video. I said, yes, that would be fun. He then explained to me what they would be doing during the training and such and then he had to go.
So, it's been a lot of positive interaction with H today. Quite frankly I'm not used to it. I can tell that he's been thinking about me a lot and the fact that he's so willing to talk is HUGE! Lots of good steps forward, I think.
I cannot sleep and cannot stop crying tonight. I'm so sick of thinking about my H and OW having sex. I really considered this girl as one of my friends. Her and her H actually went camping with me and my H's family in July. She knows all of us. She knows my kids. She knows how awful it is for them to have to go back and forth between two homes. And she knows how much I love my H and how devastated I was when he left me. Her H cheated on her two years ago so she also knows how painful it is to be betrayed like that. How can a person do that to another person?? I just want this pain to go away...
But you have some hope for the future for the two of you. That is so much more than most of us have here. I don't know how much it hurts, can only imagine the first time I know about H, new woman. I know it's probably going to be coming in my future. It will kill. Hang in there, try to focus on your new m. and R. I'm sorry you are crying and can't sleep. Fondly.
I'm just having serious thoughts that I think I see H differently now. I haven't done anything with him since but I think that this may really come between us. One of the main things that attracted me to him is the fact that he has always been so loyal and trustworthy. I view him as a "player" now and I am sooooo not attracted to players. I can't even think of being close to him or kissing him because it kind of makes me sick to think that he was just doing that with someone else. Um, just a week ago to be exact. And telling her that he thought he was falling in love. This is seriously the most heart-wrenching experience. Remind me never to love again...
I understand how this is very heart-wrenching for you. After reading DB, there is a section about infidelity and you have to "stop think" or something like that, where when you're having bad thoughts about it, you have to consciously tell yourself to stop and enjoy yourself at the moment!!!
If you want to reconcile and can see yourself forgiving your H, then give it the best you can and do some MC once you are both ready.
Also, remember affairs are a fantasy world that people escape to instead of dealing with their real life problems. He did not really love this person, he just thought he did, because he felt like he was missing something in his own life.
Things will get better and I wish you the best. Keep your head up girl!!!
jks,
The road before you is very painful, in my sitch I read that infidelity is the worst pain a person can experience, worse than a loved one dying -- it's betrayal on top of loss. You can't flip a switch and get over that, you just have to live throught it, but know that it does end and you will come out the other side -- but it will probably take 6 months or more. There is no need for everything to be better *now*, take your time.
I recommend you go back and read your own sitch from the beginning, when H was gone, you were very honest about your own contribution to the situation and you desperately wanted him back. Now he's willing to come back and you're beating him up and pushing him away. Believe me, I understand why and how it makes you feel, but please try to maintain perspective on your own role in your marriage.
If you view yourself as the faultless victim, your marriage will not improve longer term. OW was a symptom, not a root cause. H's needs were not being met in your marriage and he was not happy. Your road to success lies in BOTH having H atone for his wrongdoing AND you continuing to evaluate your own attitudes and actions and to understand what will be required of YOU to make your marriage a success.
No matter what happens, you will need to forgive H. This may not make sense to you now, but forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. You forgive for your own well-being, not for H. When you forgive, you can find peace. Without forgiveness you will find only anger and recrimination within yourself. What he did was horribly, horribly wrong, but it cannot be undone.
I strongly suggest you find a counselor to talk to -- your friends are not trained in this area and may not give you good advice. Find yourself a good IC, a priest, or use a DB telephone coach on this site. I spoke to Cheryl and I can guarantee you she will make you feel better and see things more clearly.
You are spinning right now, you're in shock and have gone through trauma. Don't make any long term decisions, and try not to say things you'll later regret.
H loves you, he's the best father for your children, and he's willing to give this a go -- that's a gift regardless of what has come before.
Accuray
BTW, if it helps, when I found out about W and OM, it dominated my thoughts 24x7 for months. I felt tortured and it was hard to function. That was 8 months ago now. At this point, I don't think about it at all, it's a distant memory. When I do think about it, it's easily dismissed. You'll get there.
Also, if you ever get to the point where you feel I'm doing more harm than good for you, just let me know, I will not be offended.
Accuray
Also, if you ever get to the point where you feel I'm doing more harm than good for you, just let me know, I will not be offended.
Accuray
Honestly, please do not stop posting. It has been the only thing that has given me some direction right now. I am not offended in people telling me like it is. I get very caught up in my emotions which is totally obvious in all of my up and down posts. I just don't know where I am right now.
I'm 31 years old, living with my mom, I have three small children, I don't really have a steady income, I don't really have a steady anything. I just feel so lost. There is nothing stable for me right now. My mental state has always been an issue for me and all of this stress and pain is really more than I can bear right now.
I want to stop thinking about it, I want to let it go. But in doing so it makes me feel like I'm just ignoring the problem and pretending like it didn't ever happen. I don't know if that seems healthy... just my personal opinion.
I just looked up to this man so much. It's like his goodness has been killed.
The book "The Solo Partner" talked about catastrophic thinking. When we get into these situations, we think things like "I'll never find love again" or "I can never be happy based on what's happened to me". When you find yourself thinking that way, you need to put the brakes on, label it for what it is, and remind yourself that things WILL get better.
At 31 years old, you're still young! Even if things don't work out you can certainly find love and happiness again. You will find another job, you will move into your own place or back with H. These things will happen, it's a matter of time. The fact that you can life with your mother is a great thing! What a luxury. Enjoy it and take the time you need to get yourself back on your feet.
No one is going to judge you for what's happened in your life. Look at this board, it happens all the time and often it happens worse. People around you don't talk about it, but if you open up about your sitch they might. You will find that others have also gone through troubles that you didn't even know about. Couples that look very happy in public are often having difficulties at home. It's part of being married and your situation is nothing to be ashamed of or feel badly about.
After I discussed my SSM issues with a few of my friends, I learned that many of them had the same issues or worse. One of my friend's wives was suffering from depression and bipolar issues and his situation got so bad that he had to make an ultimatum that she had to get help or he was leaving with the kids. We had dinner with them frequently and I didn't know anything about that.
Believe me, it's all around you. You can and will get through this and be happy again. If you go down the path of reconciliation, once you have forgiven H, and once you understand how to make the marriage successful for both of you, and KNOW that you are doing the things you need to do, then you will feel very confident in the strength of what you have, and at that point, you will NOT be tortured by these thoughts. The attitude you'll adopt is that you're a great wife and if he strays or leaves again, that will be his loss, because you're happy with yourself. When you get there, it's very liberating.
Accuray
No one is going to judge you for what's happened in your life.
Accuray
I guess I'm not really concerned about being judged. It's more a personal reflection on myself and just looking at where I'm at and how lost I am. I kinda could care less what everyone else thinks at this point. Just really disappointed in myself.
And I know what you're saying about it happening everywhere because I have talked with a lot more people about this since he has left me and it does come to the surface. Divorce was never something I ever even worried about and didn't pay much attention to. So when people were getting divorced, I thought, well that's sad. But obviously I had no idea the amount of heartbreak that goes into it.
Well, I get it now. My worst nightmare's have been a reality. My H used to always ask me long ago what my deepest fear was, and my answer was always "losing him." His was the same (losing me). I'm just amazed everyday at how I got here. It is completely insane.
Today was probably the most worthless day of my life. I think I ultimately fell asleep last night at about 4:45 am due to crying every time I laid my head down and all I could think about was them having sex. I could not get the thoughts out of my head and was so angry that I couldn't sleep because I needed to have energy for my kids today. I woke up at 7:30 to get my kids to school and because I haven't eaten much I can barely stand up without almost blacking out. So my day pretty much involved a lot of crying. Really, it was nonstop. And a lot of laying down due to my lack of energy.
My mom kept looking at me and had no idea what to do.
I went through that too -- talk to your primary care doctor, they'll prescribe something to help you sleep and reduce the anxiety. I wish I could tell you it will pass quickly but for me it did not, it took quite a while. I was "owned" by it for a long time. One good thing I started doing was riding my road bike. I was riding 12 - 15 miles every day, some days as many as 25. It felt good to be "doing something" and the exercise definitely makes you feel better. The other thing I did was find two people I could vent with. I had to find two because I was afraid it would be too much of a burden for one. Just talking about it really helped, particularly "live" to someone who was sympathetic. One interesting thing I noticed was that the women who knew I had been cheated on were genuinely outraged whereas the men weren't that phased. I don't know why that is, but the outrage from my friends' wives definitely made me feel better.
There's no doubt about it, it's "tough sledding". All I can tell you (and keep telling you) is that you WILL feel better, and you'll come out of this stronger. I know it feels very desperate at times and you can't get it out of your mind. Feel sorry for yourself and grieve, it's ok, and get all the help you can.
I know what it feels like and it's awful. Beyond bad. I definitely would have been very gratified if W had wanted to reconcile however. In my sitch, she was pretty bent on divorcing, even after OM was done. When I hugged her or kissed her she told me it felt bad and wrong. That was not good.
Accuray
So I was talking with my mom's H about how my H has been talking a lot about the future just this week. How he was talking about the cruise and the dream house and it just seemed like he was already over his pain. He had his relief of getting caught and coming clean and now all his pain has been put on me. Does it seem a little weird to anyone that he has been so quick to talk about these things like that?
Also, he has said nothing and done nothing with putting our phone bills back together. I asked my mom if I should ask him about it and she said, no, let him show you and if he doesn't do it then you know what he really wants.
He is supposed to be talking with OW tomorrow. I have not said anything more to him about it. I feel like tomorrow is going to reveal quite a bit for me. If he doesn't follow through then I feel I have every right to question his real intent to continue with me.
Yes, that's one of the learnings here, you should *always* question your partner's intent to continue with you, but from the perspective of what are you doing to make that a good option? Taking our relationships for granted, or feeling our partner "owes us" is a cancer of marriage.
With regard to your H, he's in a panic right now, he's going to end one relationship and knows he risks losing both. He is talking so much about the future and seems to be over his grief because he wants to ensure that you'll stay around. He realizes he's at the point now where he could wind up with no one and he doesn't want that.
At the same time, as you're figuring out, his mind is not quite as made up as he's representing -- that's why it's so important to continue to work on yourself and to DB. More so that no matter what happens, you'll be OK.
You will probably get real commitment after he goes "no contact" with OW, although it's likely he'll still feel confused and torn for a while.
Accuray
Do you ever think that people getting caught and fessing up feel truly sorry and ashamed at first but then after everyone knows and its not really that big of a deal anymore, they start to realize that they kinda miss that life they had and they don't mind so much going back to it?
My H has not contacted me at all this morning and I'm truly disgusted with him. He is supposed to be transparent with me and I have no idea what the heck is going on. A simple, hey, I texted OW and asked her to meet me at 2:00 at such and such place, just so you know... such a simple thing could be save so much drama between us. I am two seconds away from filing and I'm not kidding... he has not changed at all.
I also found out today that OW actually moved to the same city as my H to be closer to him in Nov. She lives down the street from his parent's house!! He keeps telling me that he left me for our own marriage issues not because of her but what he can't recognize is that we had no hope from the beginning of our separation because he wouldn't break off his relationship/friendship with her. He kept comparing me to her so every time he was saying he was trying, he wasn't really. Because truly trying would have been to cut off all ties so your mind wouldn't be clouded by another woman!!
He was still hanging out with her and talking with her all the time. How in the world did he think he was going to try to save his marriage while sneaking around behind my back and continuing on with her? Honestly, they can have each other. He is not the person he once was and in my mind I don't know that he ever will be again.
Deep breath jks. It is true that H was not working on your marriage at all when he was with OW. That's the hardest part for the LBS, all our monumental efforts will do nothing when OW is involved.
At this point he's told you he wants to end it with OW, but he's having a hard time pulling the trigger. I would encourage you to continue to give him space and not push him to do things on your timeline. Do you want him to end it because he wants to, or because you "made him"?
Let him figure it out for himself.
Affairs are intoxicating -- it literally releases brain chemicals like drugs or alcohol that people quite literally get physically addicted to. It's a fantasy where they put each other on a pedestal, convince each other they are wonderful and do not see their respective weaknesses. This trance-like state typically lasts a few months, then reality starts to creep in and they start to emerge from the haze.
This was not about you, and I will bet he was not comparing you to her, regardless of what he might have said to justify his actions. Chances are, he wasn't thinking of anyone but himself and OW, beyond that he just blanked it out. He didn't do it to hurt you or to spite you, unfortunately you weren't on his landscape at all.
Know that it is also normal that once you have the opportunity to get him back, you may discover you no longer want him. This is often a backlash and a temporary feeling, so sit on it for a couple weeks before you decide anything. I strongly recommend you read "After the Affair" if you haven't looked it up already because it will help you understand what to expect in terms of how you'll be feeling and what you'll be thinking.
You can't control him at this point, things will happen on their own timeline, and extreme patience is called for -- because there is nothing you can do. Filing for divorce will just be trading one pile of troubles for another. It's expensive, and both party's standard of living *always* goes down, and your life will get permanently harder. If there is any chance at all that you can work things out with H, then you owe it to yourself and your kids to at least give it a shot. If it doesn't work out, you will feel better knowing that you at least gave it a fair chance and did what you could.
What you are feeling is normal -- you're extremely angry, let down, shocked and hurt, and impatient for things to play out. H continues to disappoint you by not acting on the timeline you set forth and/or he proposed. Know that he is having a very hard time as well, he's already hurt you very badly, he's going to hurt OW very badly, and no one wants to feel like that. Yes, he made his own bed and now he has to lay in it, but that doesn't make it any easier.
He is not the person he once was and in my mind I don't know that he ever will be again.
That is true, neither of you will be the person you once were, the bell cannot be unrung. You both will be permanently changed by this no matter what happens.
Here's the thing jks, we all go through life with our issues and imperfections. Some of them make us hard to live with, some of them lead us to hurt others.
Unfortunately, people *hate* to change. From what I've read, people usually will *only* change in response to crisis. You're both having a crisis, and therefore you have motivation and an opportunity to change. Focus on you -- what can you do to address your own issues, whatever they are? If you can keep bringing it back to you, and make positive changes you are happy about, then I promise you will feel good about yourself coming out of this REGARDLESS of what H does. If he doesn't step up, it will be his loss, but you need to be that prize.
Accuray
My H texted at about 11:00 that he wanted to come and pick up the kids tomorrow night when he gets off of work. This immediately made me nervous because in the beginning of this week he wanted to do something together as a family on Friday night and I had told him that I didn't want to do anything with him until he ended it with OW. So I knew what that meant. I called him immediately and asked him what was going on. He started very slowly saying I'm just sitting at my house. I'm like AND?!! He said and I've been texting with OW and she isn't liking it. I asked him about tomorrow and he said well you said you didn't want to hang out with me until this was resolved and I know it's going to take a lot more talking to get it resolved. It's probably not going to happen in a day. So this was a start of very long conversation... 2 hours.
He said he hasn't changed his mind he just knew that this was going to be really hard for him because he cares about her a lot. And he knows that he won't ever be able to see her again. I was very understanding and made him explore every scenario trying to figure out what it is that he really wants. He obviously still has several reservations about coming back to me because he wonders if he will ever truly be happy. I did hurt him a lot and I told him that he didn't deserve it. But he wants his family to be together. He can't stand thinking about sharing our kids for the rest of our lives. It makes him miserable.
I asked him if he could be with her and not feel guilty anymore would he truly be happy with her? He said, for the most part, just not having my kids would be hard. Which tells me that he really was just coming back because of the enormous amount of guilt but really does prefer to be with her. He explained a lot more about why he did what he did and I understood. This is one thing about him, I feel like I get him. It didn't make me feel so bad about the situation and I told him, well, what are you waiting for? Do you want to just do it? (Meaning, get a divorce) And he said, I still don't know.
I know it seems like I was talking him out of staying with me, but I cannot make him stay with me for my own selfish reasons. I really do love him that much, I want him to be happy. However, I did tell him that he may want to think about his R with her... how right now it seems perfect and wonderful and the ideal way to go. But, in reality, its a fantasy. They haven't spent long amounts of time together. They haven't even been together with our kids dealing with day to day life. They have the same job and I know right now it may seem really cool that they can relate so much but eventually it might bug him that they have so much in common and might be too much a like. They might really butt heads on things and argue a lot. Right now its new and exciting and he just never knows. He said, I know, you're right.
I also told him that our old marriage is now dead. Neither one of us have a desire to go back to the way things were. We both want to make significant changes are willing to make it work. We both are willing to seek out a MC and it may be that much more rewarding knowing that we worked so hard and overcame so much. I told him that if we made each other a priority everyday we would both feel so valued and loved and want to do more for each other. I told him that we have the ability to start a completely new marriage. It could be exciting. He said, I know what you're saying.
So towards the end of our conversation, he said he still wants to pick up the kids tomorrow which immediately made me sad. I said so right now you're feeling like you have to choose between the two of us? He said, yes. Wow, this is hard. I felt so panicked and wanted to hold onto him for dear life. I said, I don't want to lose you. He said, I know.
So he will be taking our kids tomorrow night and all this DBing starts again. I feel ok. I know probably by the time the weekend gets here I'm going to be downright sad but for now, I just know that I have to live with whatever he decides. I know I'm still important to him but now he has made it so much more complicated because he truly cares so much for someone else and doesn't want to let her go.
My goal is to not pursue him at all. Not pressure him about what his decision should be and wait it through with a happy heart. If he makes the choice completely on his own to stay with me, not because of guilt, then I know that is the answer I want and we can work that much better. Pray for me, please!!
So many ups and downs...but girl you are hanging in there!
I like your statement about the old marriage being over and you can start a new one with him...that could be very exciting!
You seem like you are also in a good place about not pursuing him! That is great! Keep up the good work and I will pray for yoU!
Jks,
Try hard not to mind read. You seem to want him to tell you that he loves OW more and he is only willing to stay out of guilt. That is your fear and you keep asking him to confirm it. He has not said that, but when he gets anywhere near it, you jump to that conclusion. That fear frames it as a comparison between the two of you, but that's not what's going on, as you point out, you are the reality, she is the fantasy and the two CANNOT be compared.
I went through this too -- I spent a long time talking to my IC about the fact that I was afraid she loved OM more and I was standing in the way of her happiness and would always fail by comparison. I also wanted her to stay "for me" versus the package I represented (kids, house, stability)
MC said that your spouse chose you for a reason initially, because you have something they want and need. Let's pretend that you rely upon H to get things done, and H says he likes the fact that OW takes care of things on her own. More likely than not, H wants and needs to be the caretaker, so while he may appreciate that in the short term, longer term he will not feel needed or not feel like a good provider. Often the things he thinks he likes now will be the things that ultimately disappoint him later. Relationships born from affairs have a horrible success rate for that reason.
It is also usually the case that traits we love about someone are the flipside of what bothers us the most. If you really like strong independent men, they're not going to be that loving or vulnerable with you. If you like someone who makes you feel very needed, you may resent feeling like their caretaker, etc.
Often affair partners are the opposite of the spouse, and the WAS discovers eventually that's not really what they want at all. Your traits are useful and valuable to H -- don't forget it!
Accuray
I feel like I already have done the damage. I already made him change his mind. Instead of him knowing that he wants to be with me, he's now trying to decide which one of us to go with.
I wish I could read to him what you just read to me. I am sick to my stomach of what I've done. I keep messing up... I feel like I just can't catch a break and I keep ruining everything.
What should I do?
I wish I could read to him what you just read to me.
I meant what you just WROTE to me.
I feel like I finally had his heart again. He was ending it with her and I got all insecure because he couldn't just DO IT. He had to talk it all through with her and it was going to take some time. He was so sad to lose her. I felt for him. I know he's not in an easy position at all. I may have lost my only chance to be with him.
Should I tell him that I was wrong in saying what I said? Do I just leave it?
Definitely leave it -- give space. He doesn't need to understand your revelations as they happen. Let them batch up.
I feel like I already have done the damage. I already made him change his mind. Instead of him knowing that he wants to be with me, he's now trying to decide which one of us to go with.
You have not done any damage, you did not "make" him change his mind. You correctly figured out that he was still on the fence and you tried to push him to get off it. You're not changing how he's thinking, only he can do that.
There are generally two ways of teaching someone something new. One is that you just tell them, which is the easy way, and the second is that you ask them leading questions so that they figure it out for themselves. It is the second method that generally leads people to internalize the lesson and own it as their own. I'm not suggesting you do this with H -- the point I'm making is that if you let him figure out things on his own, you'll feel much better about the outcome. Give him space, focus on you. Have faith that you hold value to him, and the more space you give, the more that will become apparent. Don't point anything out to him, let him find it for himself.
One other thing I can offer from the perspective of someone who's 8 months or so ahead of you in all this -- his reasons for wanting to reconcile are very important to you now, because you feel unsafe in the relationship and you don't want to be left again. Therefore you're looking for hard assurance from him before you feel good about making yourself vulnerable. Here's what I can share with you -- the landscape in 6 months will be completely different than it is now, so his reasons for wanting to reconcile now will no longer matter. If you decide to go forward together, you're both doing it with an awakened sense of the effort you need to contribute and what you need to work on and why. If you do your part well, you'll KNOW there is value here for H, and there will therefore be no reason to worry about him leaving. You will create an environment where there is simply no room for someone else. At that point, you won't care at all why H made the decision he did 6 months ago -- you're both here *now* and you're happy. Alternately, if you feel good about your contribution, but H isn't stepping up, then you can decide to leave knowing that the issues are no longer yours, you will KNOW you're the best wife you can be, and once again, H's reconciliation reason won't matter.
Getting back together with him is definitely taking a chance, you are taking a risk that it won't work out. Please realize that he can do nothing right now to assure you of success, he's not capable of giving that feeling to you. You both have to earn that comfort by working together.
I keep saying it, and I know it's hard to accept / understand, but it really does all come back to you and how you feel about yourself. That's what you need to work on, almost exclusively. If you do that well, everything else will fall into place for you.
Accuray
Accuray, I just realized that all this time I thought your name was "Accuracy" LOL!! Which would actually be very fitting considering how "accurate" all of your information is. I feel like I just want you to whisper in my ear what do to as I go throughout the different stages of my situation. I'm afraid of myself. I fear I lack the knowledge of how to handle this situation in a healthy way.
I did ask H in our 2 hour convo yesterday if he was able to be with OW without feeling the guilt could he see himself with her? He said, yes. But he'd still worry about the kids. I hate that I'm so insecure about all of this. I want my confidence back. I know my confidence is what he wants to see as well. I now know that I still hold much value in his life and he isn't as heartless as I once thought he was.
I think if he ends up going with OW, just like what happened over the past couple months, everything will start to remind him of me. He'll see the way she is with his kids and he may miss the connection that I share with them being that I'm their mother. There are so many things. When he came to talk to me on Saturday night he kept naming off all of these little things that kept reminding him of me. I loved hearing it. It made me feel like I was not crazy in all of this. That there actually is still some love there after all.
I need to get myself in order and start back on the DB trail. I honestly feel like I'm at square one again. My thought process is the same as it was when we first separated, however, I'm resisting my thoughts. I have had so many things that I want to say to him and have restrained myself. How did this happen? Just a couple weeks ago I was on top of this!!
I need to find an IC, I just don't want to end up going to someone that will lead me to a bad place. I felt like my first one didn't do a whole lot of good for me. And I don't know if I have the time to shop around. This will be something I will be looking into anyway. I appreciate so much all of the help that I've received here, it is my lifeline right now.
jks,
Yes, funny about the name -- "Accuray" doesn't mean anything special, it was just a name I picked to be anonymous.
For what it's worth, I think it's very unlikely that H will pick OW. You are the incumbent, you are the mother of his children, you have shared history together. You shared a vision for a life together. He will see this, but you have to let him. He needs to wonder what you're up to. The less he knows about what you're doing / thinking, the more he will think about you and wonder.
Yes, this is a HUGE confidence killer. That's why you have to GAL and "Act as If". When you GAL, you go out and meet new people and interact. When you see them appreciate you and enjoy your company, you learn that you are loveable and valuable. You have to go out there and do it to get these feelings. For H's benefit, you have to "act as if" your confidence is already back.
It's easy to fall off the DB program. When you do, get up, dust yourself off, and get back on. That's all you can do. No need to beat yourself up.
In terms of IC, I had to go to 3 before I found a good one, so you do need to shop around. That said, the telephone coaches on this site are excellent, much better than an IC. Give that a try and you will feel better.
I can't remember if I shared this with you or not, but if I did I'm going to share it again. This is from a book called "Love Must Be Tough", primarily written for the situation where your spouse is "cake eating", meaning they continue to keep you on the line while they date OW. This passage is talking about what you need to do in your attitude toward H:
"Instead of begging, pleading, wringing your hands...you as the vulnerable partner must appear strangely calm and assured. The key word is confidence, and it is of maximum importance. Your manner should say, 'I believe in me, I am not afraid. I can cope, regardless of the outcome. I know something I'm not talking about. I've had my day of sorrow, and I'm through crying..."
"Not that you should say these things with words, or course. In fact, the less said about your frame of mind, the better. It's your private business. One of the great errors made by the vulnerable lover when things begin to deteriorate is to talk too much. Her secure partner is noncommunicative, evasive, deceptive, and mysterious. He will not sit down and explain his inner feelings to the one who desperately needs that information."
"I'm recommending that you, the one who has sought to hold the marriage together, now choose your words more carefully too. It is as though you and your mate have been involved in a table game with him hiding his cards and you permitting yours to be seen. This has given the independent partner more information than he should have had, especially about the pain you are experiencing. It is time to be more discreet. No more should you reveal your every thought and plan."
"It is important during this time of crisis not to do predictable things. Having lived with you for years, your partner has you analyzed to a tee. He knows what bugs you, what makes you laugh, and what makes you cry. He has memorized all your little 'prerecorded' phrases that sprinkle your conversation. My advice is that you change these tapes. Don't offer suggestions when you would typically do so. Don't be predictable!"
"Your purpose, you see, is to convince this man that events are swirling out of control and may take him in directions he has not anticipated. The old rules don't apply. And why is this new mystery advantageous? Because one of the reasons your lover has lost interest in the relationship is that the challenge is gone. It's become so monotonous and routine. Hence, you would be wise to turn the whole thing upside down."
Finally:
"An interesting thing happens when this kind of quiet confidence suddenly replaces tears and self-pity. Curiousity infects the aloof party, and he begins to probe for details. For the first time in months, perhaps, he's coming your way. He's saying 'You seem different tonight,' and 'I hope you're beginning to get over our problems'. He's baiting you to find out what's going on inside. It is uncomfortable for him to observe that changes are occurring which he neither controls nor understands. Tell him nothing. He *needs* to wonder."
It goes on to say that despite your partner's stoic appearance, he will be wrestling with feelings of guilt and self-doubt. There is still a tiny spark for you there, and you have to give it space to kick up into a flame versus smothering it and snuffing it out.
Your sitch is better than the one described in the passage because H is willing to talk to you and admits that he is conflicted -- usually that is NOT the case. However, the prescription in the quote is still a good one for you. It's time to win an Oscar for being a great actress!
Accuray
Yesterday, H met me at a park to pick up the kids. As soon as I saw him I gave him a smile and got up to go hug him. I love his hugs. Seriously, he has always been known for giving the best hugs. He just emits love. I can't stand it.
When my D6 saw him she was sooooo excited. She has been so down lately. Everyday she is disappointed when its not her dad picking her up from school. She would ask me everyday, all the time, when is daddy coming? And I didn't really have an answer for her because I didn't know our plans yet. I felt for her so deeply. I hate seeing my children like this. She has lashed out so much because she has been so neglected by me this week. I was emotionally gone from everyone. I feel so guilty right now for the way I treated my kids this week. I made them feel abandoned. And for a child, that is the lowest they can ever feel. I wish I could take it all back.
She hugged him for so long... I couldn't help but start crying. I want my family back so much, it hurts!! I don't want this pain to be put onto my children. I don't know how to do it all. Be hurt and go through my pain and yet, be a happy and present parent. I'm so scared that I have affected them for the rest of their lives in such a negative way. Life is so complicated. I never bargained for this and I am starting to feel very, very overwhelmed by what needs to be undone. It's like I keep spinning myself deeper and deeper into a web of destruction and negativity. And I'm emitting it onto everyone I come in contact with but most importantly I'm affecting the people I love the most.
I don't want to be remembered for this. I don't want to be this person. I don't want to give up but I am so weak at times.
After they hugged he went to go find my S4 who was playing on the playground. A couple minutes later I found him pushing him on the swings. So I came over to talk with him for a while and push S4 too. We then walked back over to our cars and started to get the carseats switched over and the kids buckled up into his car. He then made it a point to come over to me and talk with me for a minute. He gave me the biggest hug. I started sobbing. He said, its ok. I told him I just want you to know that I regret some of the things I said yesterday. When I told you "what are you waiting for?" I didn't mean it. I was trying to get you to make a decision and I know that isn't fair for me to do. And it has been bugging me. He said, I understand... believe me, I know. Meaning, what I said wasn't something that was a huge deciding factor for him. He has always been good that way that he has made all of these decisions for himself. He doesn't really talk to a lot of people because he wants the answer to come from within him not from an influence of what someone else thinks. (I am the complete opposite.)
I also told him that I want to take the kids to a city that's about 4 hours away that's warm for Spring Break next week. He said, when were you thinking? I said, well you told me you'd bring them back Tues. so I was going to leave Weds. He said, ok, who are you going with? I said, probably just a couple of friends. He said, ok. Then he left.
I went home and posted on FB that I was kid-less on a Friday night and was wondering if anyone's doing anything fun. My dear friend from work a long time ago immediately responded... I'm kid-less and husband-less tonight too. I said, it was meant to be! So we went to dinner and talked. It was so good to see her and talk with her again.
My other friend had texted me and asked me if I wanted to go to a late movie with her and her sister. So after dinner with the one friend I left and went to a movie with my two twin sister friends and it was so good just to get out and do something. I haven't gone out on a Friday night in a year, it seems. My H always works nights and weekends and so therefore I always have the kids.
I woke up this morning and started to read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and I feel this is why I'm feeling so overwhelmed right now. Maybe I'm filling my mind with too much psychological information. It's a lot of changing your way of thinking and remembering what you learn from the books and doing those things takes a lot of effort. Granted, I see now why my H has issues. He isn't honest with himself. But to start down that path of trying to help him acknowledge this behavior and change it right now is more than I can handle right now. So I may need to just take a break from all the reading.
Venting and journaling here is what gives me my therapy right now. I'm in such a weird state of mind. I don't feel like myself at all right now. I'm really starting to envision my life without H and it feels downright empty. The kids are gone and I'm without all of them until next Tues.
I do plan to continue to not contact H. Give him his space. My rooms at my mom's house are a disaster so that is my project for the weekend. To get things back on track and possibly get rid of some things. I just have too much stuff. I look at all of it and think, I would rather have none of this and just be sitting in a simple home sipping hot chocolate with my H, knowing that I am the only one that he loves. One day... maybe.
One other thing I can offer from the perspective of someone who's 8 months or so ahead of you in all this -- his reasons for wanting to reconcile are very important to you now, because you feel unsafe in the relationship and you don't want to be left again. Therefore you're looking for hard assurance from him before you feel good about making yourself vulnerable. Here's what I can share with you -- the landscape in 6 months will be completely different than it is now, so his reasons for wanting to reconcile now will no longer matter.
Accuray,
So are you saying that I should quit asking him why he wants to work things out with me and if he decides he wants to, then just jump in and start? Stop the questions... and just do it??
jks,
You're in so much pain, I feel so badly, I wish I could help more. You're doing fine, so don't take my comments to mean that you blew it or you *should* do better, they are just suggestions meant to help.
When you saw H at the park, I would not head right over to give him a big hug -- let him find you and hug you. You need to let him lead you know? You can reciprocate, but don't initiate anything and don't escalate. If he hugs you, hug him back, but don't kiss him or say "ILY". Let him lead 100%. You'll be scared that if you don't initiate, nothing will happen. It will if you're very patient. You really do need to lay off the pursuit, not only when you're apart, but also when you're together. Let him come to you.
So are you saying that I should quit asking him why he wants to work things out with me and if he decides he wants to, then just jump in and start? Stop the questions... and just do it??
What I'm saying is, figure out what *you* want. When you thought H was firmly back you had a huge backlash of not wanting him anymore. Spend some time really thinking about what you want. If he does not embrace your religion ever again, if he never apologizes to the degree you would like, would those things be OK with you? Figure out what you want. There is no wrong answer. You need to separate this from what you think your parents want, what you think your kids want, and what you think your H wants. What do YOU and you alone want for your future?
If you decide that you would like a future with H without conditions, meaning you will accept him for who he is without changing, then let that decision guide your actions. If you want him back, but you have some boundaries that he must respect, then let that guide your actions, but be fully prepared to walk if he does not respect them.
H CANNOT reassure you that he will not hurt you again. There's nothing he could do or say *right now* that would be enough. You might think there is, but when you get it, you'll want different or more because you just need time to heal. The fact that he left made you doubt yourself -- and that insecurity is what's preventing you from feeling safe. If you fix *that*, then you're on the right path. This has WAY more to do with rebuilding you than repairing your relationship. You need to KNOW beyond doubt that you are valuable, loveable, and the kind of wife that only a fool would leave. When you are there, then what H's motivations were to reconcile really won't matter at all.
So yes, if you decide that YOU want to reconcile, and H says he's willing, then I'm telling you not to worry at all about his motivations because in six months they won't matter. You'll be in such a different place. The way he will feel about you then won't even be in the same area code as the way he feels about you now -- provided you can stick by your changes.
I can tell you that when I "got my mojo back" as it were, I *knew* I was a great husband and father. I enjoyed what I was able to bring to the relationship, and the knowledge that it was good convinced me that if it wasn't good enough for W, that was her loss, because I have a lot to be proud of with the changes I've made. If you focus on YOU, you will get there too.
I would strongly discourage you from reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" from the perspective of trying to educate and change H. You cannot. You can only educate and change yourself, so only read that book if it holds relevance for your own behavior, or if it will help YOU interact with H in a more positive way. Any time we start down a road of trying to change our spouse, we have lost before we started.
Accuray
What I'm saying is, figure out what *you* want. When you thought H was firmly back you had a huge backlash of not wanting him anymore.
Accuray
I think my backlash thoughts were coming from a place of being scared and angry. I thought he wasn't changing and didn't really want anything that he had said to me the night I found out about the PA. I was feeling like, well, fine, I'll show him!! I'm telling you... I have major emotional ups and downs. However, I am suppressing them so much more from him than I ever had before.
So my answer is, yes, I do want my H in my life. I want us to be healthy again. I don't want to know that we both walked away knowing that there was a chance to make something more of it. It is very much for the sake of my kids but it is mostly for the sake of fully forgiving one another and learning to really love again. I want that deep kind of love that I feel for him to be reciprocated. Which would only deepen the love that I feel to a new level.
And, yes, I want to better myself. I was truly getting this. I was on top of things. I was healthy in mind, body, and spirit. His second BOMB nearly killed me though. And I'm not kidding. I have not been so skinny in my entire life. I stand in the mirror and I am completely withering away... just skin and bones. (I am already skinny as it is, so to add this trauma is insane.)
It takes everything I have to eat and my energy level is still very low. Just a couple weeks ago, I was running and working out. I literally am starting from ROCK BOTTOM again. It so overwhelming and frustrating that I had come so far and now my mind is all messed up again.
I'm going to dinner tonight with my best friend. Glad to have something to do.
Hooray! Enjoy that time! You *absolutely* will feel better with time, I promise! I know how hard this is, it's brutal, hang in there.
Be careful wanting H to fully reciprocate your feelings for him. We can deal with that later. Feel good tonight.
Accuray
I'm wondering today how I should handle myself if my H chooses OW. And then how I should handle myself if he chooses me. I feel this may be coming in the next couple of weeks and I want to prepare myself.
And GAL is on my top priority list right now... I plan to take the kids on a trip this week for Spring Break. Just me and them. I've never done anything like that before so it should be quite the adventure.
I wouldn't look at it as H "choosing you or OW". It's more "is H's affair over now, or will it be over later?" If it's not over now, then it will be over later.
He can "choose you" and secretly prolong the affair, or he can "choose OW" and have the affair end later and come back to you.
You should act the same regardless of when it ends, continue to work on YOU, continue to 180, continue to GAL, continue to "act as if". Learn to validate yourself and self-soothe. What H does or doesn't do is only as significant as you build it up to be.
If you build this "choice" into a huge event, it's going to have a big emotional impact on you either way that you may have a hard time managing. Relax and breathe. Operate from the perspective that there is no near-term event to worry about, and your timeline of interest is 2-3 months, not 2-3 weeks.
Accuray
If H chooses OW, I think he would most definitely want to get D'd though. I think he would feel completely insane and stupid if he made us go through all of that... custody, finances, who gets what... and then once it was over and done with he turns around and decides, "hmmmm, I don't really want to be with OW anymore. Will you take me back?" I can't see that happening. I don't see how it would be ok for us to continue this way... where he continues to see her and sleep with her while he's still married to me and I don't know whether he would either. He knows I have huge values concerning this and it is not moral for a person to do that to their spouse.
Getting caught is one thing, but continuing on is another. So I really do think it is a matter of him deciding one way or the other now. And, personally, I don't think a man can live with trying to live both lives. With him being on the fence, I'm sure he's just as miserable as I am. He wants to start his life with someone, he doesn't want to be in this limbo stage for another 2-3 months. This is why I would say another 2-3 weeks.
I could be very wrong. This is just how my thought process has been lately.
You know H better than anyone, but it is not that unusual for people to cake-eat for months, even to continue living at home and have sex with both people off and on. People can fence-sit for a very long time. My friend's father had a 15 year affair while he was married and living at home.
If H's affair is not over (versus choosing OW), don't assume that means he will want a divorce, he may be content to "wait and see" for another couple months. He's clearly very conflicted. If H does decide to push for a divorce, there's nothing you can do about that anyway, that's outside of your control.
Forgetting about H and what he may or may not do, what do YOU want? If H does decide to sit on the fence for another 2-3 months, what will you do?
One thing I'm sure you've thought about is giving an ultimatum. The problem with ultimatums is that you have to be willing to enforce them. Usually by the time you're ready to enforce an ultimatum, there's no longer any reason to give one because you've moved on emotionally.
That said, if you decide that YOU cannot tolerate fence-sitting for another 2-3 months, then you can give H an ultimatum and tell him that he must go "no contact" with OW including changing jobs, give you full transparency, etc. by X date or you will file for divorce. Now if you lay that down and don't enforce it, you're in a world of trouble because you're no longer credible and he won't respect what you say.
Therefore, before you're at the point to do this, you have to have come to terms with filing for divorce yourself and facing your future without H. It's worth it to spend some time thinking about what you'll do if H does NOT decide and just continues to fence sit.
From my perspective, the best answer is to use the time to work on you, give H the space he wants, and set a longer horizon for your decision making -- i.e. "By the 4th of July, I will need this situation to be resolved, either H and I will be actively reconciling, or I will proceed with a divorce request." Then when you get to July 4th, you re-evaluate based upon how you're feeling then. Most importantly, you don't plan to make ANY decisions between now and then. You use the time to work on you.
Accuray
Accuray,
I get what you're saying completely. Thank you for continued guidance and perspective. I will be thinking about this a lot over the next couple of days.
I hope things are going well for you and your W while you're still reconciling. I will have to update myself on your sitch this week. Happy Spring Break!
JKS
jks - I think you need to really think about what Accuray said. I'm kind of in the same place as you, so I know you feel when you say "choosing OW". I've restrained myself from giving my H an ultimatum, and I think it was the best decision I made so far. (I've made plenty of mistakes, too!)
Accuray - That was some great advice! I needed to read that myself, as you know.
Thanks for sticking around and giving us another perspective!
Thanks RoRo, JKS my sitch is going well overall. I'll save you the reading since I'm on my third thread. My challenge has been acceptance of the things I cannot change.
My W is not a very happy person, but has accepted that about herself, and manages it well. She doesn't enjoy sex for herself, but is willing to do it for my benefit. She does not speak my "love language" despite the fact that she knows what it is. She wants nothing to be expected of her, and for me to treat anything she does for me as a gift.
All of the professional help I have gotten (MC, IC, DB Coach) have told me that my choice is accept things as they are, or leave, there is no third choice where W decides to change any of these things. I've always been an optimist and a "fixer", so that's a grim outlook for me, and coming to acceptance has been a challenge.
Like you I have also wrestled with the aftermath of infidelity. For a long time I didn't feel "safe" that I wouldn't get burned again, so I was desperately looking for gestures on W's part to indicate that she had fully bought into the marriage going forward. Addressing any of the items in the list above would have greatly reassured me of her commitment, but as I've come to learn, that's not who she is.
Reading about how good marriage can really be in books like "The Five Love Languages" and "Passionate Marriage", I got a glimpse of something I really wanted, and I was willing to go there. Initially I was really surprised when W wasn't joining me on that journey, and it was shocking to me to find out that she really didn't want a closer relationship, she wanted more distance in our relationship than I did.
It's been a long and difficult journey, but at this point, I'm no longer looking for or expecting any reassurance, and I'm ok with that. It's also been painful to give up on that vision for how good marriage can be, and to accept that I will not have that with W. The gift I've given myself, however, is to be happy with my own journey and where I've come, and to know that if W does decide to cheat on me again, I will be able to move on without going through the pain. Based on what I contribute, I also think it's highly unlikely that she'll be motivated to cheat again, but I'm certainly "on guard" now like I never was before -- not from the perspective of trying to watch or control her, but from the perspective of staying mentally ready to leave if I need to.
There are definitely elements of our relationship that are MUCH better now than they ever were. W never used to tell me when anything was wrong. She was an expert at stonewalling. She is now willing to try to share with me if something is bothering her. Overall her mood is better now than it was for years. I enjoy spending time with her now whereas for a long time I would walk on eggshells or avoid her altogether. Also, after reading the SSM book, she has a much better sensitivity to our sex life, and has stepped up the frequency for my benefit, and that I really do appreciate.
Still a work in progress with more healing to do, but for now it is working for me.
Accuray
Wow, a lot struggles there and you have come so far... I am amazed!! Well done! I don't know how you have the time to counsel me or anyone else here but I am so glad you keep coming back because right now everyone's perspective for me is to get out of it.
I ended up calling H tonight. The pit in my stomach has been more than I can bear right now (I've had it all week ever since I found out about the PA) so I needed to talk to him. I know, total DB no-no but I'm so tired of living in wonder. I will get stronger, I know I will, but for now I am weak.
I told him I feel like I messed up. And what I was referring to was our convo on the phone a couple days ago. He said, no you didn't. He said I think when it all came out and I got caught, I wanted to fix everything and I knew that I needed to end things with OW in order to fix it. But the reality set in of actually losing her and I wasn't ready to do it. He talked more about how he leans one way and sees how it could be good or bad and then if how he leans the other, the same thing.
He said he doesn't know why he's having such a hard time making this decision but he can't just come to an answer. He's worried that if he stays with me, he will never be truly happy. He's worried that our personalities don't mesh well and overall we won't get along as well as him and OW do. He likes the way he feels like he can be himself completely around her. Whereas with me, he is always trying to do what will please me. He said he thinks about having to share our kids for the holidays and he said it would be awful to have to do it when both of us are separated and alone but if we have someone then there's a different element of happiness that makes sharing the kids not so bad.
I told him I think it seems silly to go through what we went through and learn all the things we did, and then just give up and walk away. Why wouldn't we want to learn from it and grow together because of it now that both of us are willing to do the work? I told him in a year from now he could be completely happy and fulfilled in his R with me and will look back at all of this thinking, I can't believe I was about to end it all and break up my family. I also told him that if you look at our M as a whole, consider this the lowest point and we can only go up from here. To me, that is exciting.
I am so frustrated that there is this OW, because I truly believe that my H would not have any reservations coming back and making it work with me if he hadn't gotten so close with her. He can't imagine ending it with her.
He told me that if we didn't have kids, we would no longer be together. I tried to ask him about the things he had mentioned to me about what he missed about me and that he was afraid of losing me... what was that all about? He said he mostly was just afraid of losing his family. And, yes, he missed things about me but overall he still didn't feel like our personalities went together well. He feels this because OW has his ideal personality.
He loves the way she's so independent and gets things done and lets him be who he is. She also has no kids and no worries whatsoever so I'm pretty dang sure I would be just as independent too. I told him that and he agreed.
He is basically telling me that in order for him to come back, he has to want to try. And right now he's trying to get himself to a place to want that again. He also said he won't be seeing OW for the time being. But did mention that it has been very hard. He wants to see her very badly. I asked him if he ever wants to see me and he said, yes.
He is so afraid of getting back with me and having things not work overall and then losing OW and being alone. I told him he has no idea what it even feels like to be alone. He left me alone in our house. He would take the kids on Sundays which was our family day that we'd always go to his parent's house to have dinner and I would spend my Sunday night by myself. Eating dinner by myself. He went and lived with his parents and has had that support from them ever since. I only just recently have felt that support since I moved in with my mom in Feb.
He has a huge extended family that always gets together for big events. I have my mom and her H. That is it. And he gets to D me and go straight into another R with another woman that he already loves. He doesn't have to do the "alone" thing at all. I will be the one who cannot date anyone because I'm so emotionally messed up and I have THREE kids to add on top of all my baggage. I will compare every man to my H and wish that I were with him.
This is absolutely insane!! My H basically just wants to know that I'm going to be ok if he leaves me. That has been his driving force for not going through with everything. Because he worries that I'll just be angry at the kids all the time and it will affect them greatly. I do not feel there's anymore hope now that OW is involved. I cannot compete with perfection in his eyes. And now that he's seeing that if he's going to be so happy with OW then not having the kids so much will not matter to him anymore.
I later texted him and told him, "I am sorry if you feel pressured by me. Everything I do and say comes from a place of love. I do not want to make you feel worse about it. That is not my purpose. I won't ask you about it anymore... it is not fair for me to do that."
He responded, "I don't have a problem with what you've been asking. You have a right to know so don't worry about asking because it doesn't bother me."
Oh man, right back at square one... this road is never ending, I'm afraid.
Jks - I had a similar conversation with my H. How he was struggling with ending his A, even with me knowing...blah, blah, blah.
Just know there is nothing you can say that will make him want to work on your M. He has to come to that conclusion himself. I think you need to focus on you now and what changes/180s you want to make for you. Trust me, if you're consistent, your H will notice.
And one other piece if advice - Stop talking to him about your R. It only ends up making you (me too) feel bad and anxious.
Thank you, RoRo. I am seriously needing all the support I can get right now. I feel extremely empty. And it is awful to know that I can see him with this OW. They have been friends for a LONG time. I hate the fact that she just moved right in and stole everything that is so important to me. I love my H's family. I will miss them so much. I've always felt so lucky to be a part of them. I need to be strong. I know this. I need this pit of sickness to go away.
Tomorrow will be a better day because I'm going to go shoot with a bunch of other photographers and go out to lunch and just hang out all day. It will be a great way to get my mind off of this madness.
Just read a lot of your thread. It just kills me, so many was's leave such little kids. so sad. Accuray, amazing advice. Hang in there jks.
Jks,
For what its worth, my W gave me the "personalities don't match" and "you just need to be ok with me leaving" speeches too. There is a website where you can take an enneagram personality test online for $10 (good stuff by the way, worth doing to better understand how you operate and what drives you). She took the test, figured out my type, then told me all the ways we weren't compatible. When I went to the site myself, there was a whole other list of how our types compliment and benefit each other that she had just ignored. The bottom line is that there is no such thing as incompatible personality types, every combination has both problems and benefits. This is just another "I want to have my affair" justification and you can safely ignore it. You can't change your personality type anyway, only how you operate within it. Your type is why H chose you to begin with.
The "you need to be ok" is H's plea to release him from the guilt. They want to think of you as happy without them because it makes their lives so much easier.
My W actually also gave me the "If you love someone set them free" speech, that just made me think of the song.
As for ow, yes she is doing something very very wrong getting involved with the H of a married women with small kids. Its terrible and reprehensible but there's not much to be done about it other than to rise above.
What I learned is that there is power in granting their wish to "be ok". He feels responsible for your feelings right now because you've made it clear that he is denying you happiness. That casts a black cloud over your head when he thinks of you. He doesn't want to be responsible for how you feel. Feeling that way makes you unattractive compared to happy go lucky OW. If you truly seem OK, then he will wonder why and that will bother him and draw him in, and sharing in your happiness will once again seem attractive.
As painful as it is, the best thing you can do is give him up for now and make it your mission to meet new friends and have fun. Tick some things off your bucket list. Make sure he takes the kids enough to allow you to get out and have fun. Shoot for 50/50. The best thing that can happen is for him to call you and hear music and fun voices in the background. If that happens and he wants to know what's going on, just say you're out having fun and provide no further details.
Accuray
Jks,
For what its worth, my W gave me the "personalities don't match" and "you just need to be ok with me leaving" speeches too. There is a website where you can take an enneagram personality test online for $10 (good stuff by the way, worth doing to better understand how you operate and what drives you). She took the test, figured out my type, then told me all the ways we weren't compatible. When I went to the site myself, there was a whole other list of how our types compliment and benefit each other that she had just ignored. The bottom line is that there is no such thing as incompatible personality types, every combination has both problems and benefits. This is just another "I want to have my affair" justification and you can safely ignore it. You can't change your personality type anyway, only how you operate within it. Your type is why H chose you to begin with.
The "you need to be ok" is H's plea to release him from the guilt. They want to think of you as happy without them because it makes their lives so much easier.
My W actually also gave me the "If you love someone set them free" speech, that just made me think of the song.
As for ow, yes she is doing something very very wrong getting involved with the H of a married women with small kids. Its terrible and reprehensible but there's not much to be done about it other than to rise above.
What I learned is that there is power in granting their wish to "be ok". He feels responsible for your feelings right now because you've made it clear that he is denying you happiness. That casts a black cloud over your head when he thinks of you. He doesn't want to be responsible for how you feel. Feeling that way makes you unattractive compared to happy go lucky OW. If you truly seem OK, then he will wonder why and that will bother him and draw him in, and sharing in your happiness will once again seem attractive.
As painful as it is, the best thing you can do is give him up for now and make it your mission to meet new friends and have fun. Tick some things off your bucket list. Make sure he takes the kids enough to allow you to get out and have fun. Shoot for 50/50. The best thing that can happen is for him to call you and hear music and fun voices in the background. If that happens and he wants to know what's going on, just say you're out having fun and provide no further details.
Accuray
I did another DB no-no. I went to OW's house and confronted her about their affair. She was very obliging by letting me in. I felt ok in doing this because I know this woman. She's been a friend of my H's for a long time. We went camping together last July. Basically, she feels like crap for what she's done but doesn't care to end anything. She admitted that she's had feelings for my H for a long time. Did it ever occur to you that he's not available? Even if he is separated? I asked her how she even sleeps at night and she said, with a lot of medication. I said, you know me, you know my kids, you know our whole family... how does a person do this? She had no answer.
I am so sick that she lives so close to my H now. I told her that I liked her and was happy to hang out with her and told her that if they hadn't crossed the line then they could have still had been friends.
I told her that this is insane because if she wasn't in the picture, my H would have wanted to work things out with me for sure. And we have so much potential to make things better because we see all the things we were doing wrong and we both have the motivation to change. But he can't get over the fact of losing her. I wish she had a heart and would just back off for the sake of our family. She is so selfish.
I went out of town with my kids for a couple days after I left her house and had a good time. I was starting to feel like this whole situation is so silly. Does he really understand what he is losing? I am actually a pretty cool girl. Yes, I've had my issues with depression but wouldn't you think a H would be there for you to help you figure that out? Not just bail? I feel bad for him. He doesn't know who he is. He doesn't know what he wants and he's trying to find happiness in all the wrong places.
While I was away I went out shopping with my kids and kept feeling like I'm a pretty good catch. I felt beautiful and I was like, look at me... I'm taking care of these three little ones all by myself. I planned this trip and made it happen all on my own. I didn't even go with friends. It was just me and my kids. It was actually such a really great bonding experience for me and my children. I felt like we had some really great moments and I truly put all of my focus on them. We giggled and played and I didn't lose my temper at all. It was a miracle.
My H did text me and asked me if I had left with the kids and I said, I did. He then said, I would like to come pick the kids up on Sunday. You can keep them longer if you need to. (He probably thought I would want to do an Easter egg hunt.) But I was planning to do that today so I told him to come a little earlier. He said ok, and that things are really confusing for him right now. He's trying to look at things from both sides and figure out what to do with this mess that he created. I didn't respond.
Earlier this week I told his mom about everything that's been going on because she is seriously like my 2nd mother. I am closer with her than my own mother. And she said she is soooo disappointed in him and has no idea who he is anymore. She said she wants to talk to him about it. This is supposed to be happening tomorrow. We will see. I know my H values what his mother thinks and I didn't tell her so that she would say anything to him. I really just needed advice from her. I didn't know what to do. And I feel as his mother, she has a right to know what's going on.
I have had so many emotional ups and downs this week. One minute I feel like he is such an idiot for doing this to our M. And he actually has a really good thing with me that good potentially be awesome. And our family is so stinkin adorable. What the heck is he thinking?? And then on the other hand, I feel like he will never feel the same way about me ever again and I will continue to try to make him love me and it will just feel empty. I will always have the insecurity of him wishing he was with OW and made the wrong decision. I have to be strong for this reason. I want him to realize that everything he's thinking is just absolute confusion.
He sees nothing but bad in me right now. I have to switch this around. So I will continue to find people to meet and do things for myself. I was praying the other day asking what it is that I should do... and the strongest answer that came to me was focus on serving other people. Forget yourself and find others who need your help. This is going to be where my head is at.
Jks,
Confronting is not necessarily a DB no-no, my DB coach was supportive of me doing it. Sometimes the person WILL back off, it depends how they feel. Sometimes it has gotten more serious than the other person wants.
Involving his mother on the other hand was a DB no-no. All that's going to do is make him resent you. Leave her out of it going forward if you can, she really lacks the power to talk him out of what he's doing.
You will NOT always have the insecurity of thinking he would rather be with OW. That will absolutely go away. If you are being a wife only a fool would leave and speaking his love language, his obvious satisfaction will stamp out that insecurity, it will go.
Your thoughts that you are hot and a good catch are great! That's right where you want to be. Anything you can do to continue to build that will be great for you and your situation. You are a great person, H's actions are NOT a negative reflection on you.
It seems you are DB'ing very well overall. Keep him guessing -- not answering his baiting questions is great. If he says he's confused tell him you're sorry to hear that and move on, no more discussion. You must be unphased. He must believe his power over you is waning. Go out and have fun, and keep thinking of yourself as hot and capable.
Good for you!
Accuray
H came and picked up the kids today. We were all waiting outside because the kids couldn't wait to see him. I had mixed emotions seeing him. I want to be mad at him but I don't. He acted very normal when he saw me and was very involved in what the kids wanted to tell him. I got their bags and their carseats and said good-bye to them. This time it was a little harder because of the fun week I had just had with them. My heart was feeling heavy. Bonding with them more definitely makes it that much more heart-wrenching to let them go. He said, thank you and left.
I immediately came inside and said, I hate him. And started crying and venting all of my frustrations. My mom and her H were trying to talk me into ending things with him now because they see how hurt I am and how much its destroying me mentally and physically. I had to stop talking with them and called my BF. She helped me settle down and realize what it is that I need to do. Although, at one point she was telling me that maybe my next step here is just to make the decision to end it because my H obviously doesn't have the will power to do it.
Ending it doesn't feel right to me when I'm in a normal state of mind. Of course, when I'm emotional and want to lash out at him, it seems like the only answer. I have to continually read my thread here and look back at the advice that I've been given. No one else understands what it is that I'm trying to accomplish and its so exhausting trying to get everyone to see my point of view. The problem is, I just need to vent sometimes. I just need to cry and say awful things so that I can get them off my chest and not have to say these things to him.
What a glorious day when I can fully detach from him. I long for the power of the release and at the same time I grieve that the loving feelings I've had for him for so long will be gone.
I read on a thread about a website called meetup.com and I've looked into this more. Basically people set up activities and post them to this website and you can RSVP and just show up. It's supposed to be a great way to meet new people with no expectations and to just get out and do something. So I recently joined a mailing list for a hiking group that I found on this site. I will be joining them for the first time tomorrow night at 5:30. This will be my first time trying something like this and I'm not gonna lie, this is way out of my comfort zone. Normally I would want to take a friend with me but I'm doing this all on my own. I'm putting myself out there and I'm just going to do it, dang it.
Oh, I also called H's mom to see if she was able to talk to him and she said she did. She couldn't talk to me though because she was on her way out the door to go to the airport. That left me feeling completely helpless and anxious.
She said she would call me later. But I have a feeling she won't. She is so much like my H it isn't even funny. They never talk about anything important. Nothing will ever get brought up unless I do it. It's soooooo FRUSTRATING!!
JKS,
I feel your pain and I am so sorry you are going through it. I wish I could take everyone's pain away and that you could just tell yourself to stop feeling the heartache and pain!!
You are strong for sticking it out and trying to let your H figure things out to make the right decision. You are right detaching is the hardest part. I am going to talk to lawyers tomorrow about our possible D and I am not even close to being detached. One minute I'm strong and knowing that I don't deserve this...and the next I want him in my arms.
Keep posting and keep up the good hard work. It will pay off some day!