11 Figured I'd started a new thread considering I topped 100 and, frankly, we were taking a questionable left turn!
Thanks for everyone's input. I am chilling the eff out a bit. Totally need to get back into GAL mode - will do so with S this weekend. W still wants to go to fertility doc about our embryo on Monday - so it can't be all bad. Who knows!
Crimson
Hey Crimson, for what it's worth man, looks like we got thrown into this mix at about the same time, it's been a long six months. I've learned a lot from following your sitch and the associated comments and think you're doing great. I pick and choose what I have to respond to as well to make sure I have some value-add, because I certainly have not mastered the DB skillset as of yet. Although simple in theory we all know it is extremely hard to do. At any rate, keep your chin up, FWIW and in IMHO I can't see how your wife wanting to talk to a fertility doc on Monday could be anything but a positive thing. Keep getting your GAL on and good luck with the appt on Monday!
Thanks, B74. I DO hope that people don't read my infrequent posts to other threads as generally not giving a shyte. Hardly, I am in the same boat as you - just not wanting speak and guide much from the "novice" view. Others may have differing opinions, but this seems like such a wobbly place to be for so many of us that I don't want to point anyone in the wrong direction.
I am with you on the fertility doc - that remains a bright spot for me right now. At least something that gives me a little hope that all is not lost. If I set all of the other madness going on around it to the side, I a purely excited at the prospect of a second little one - assuming w and I get our shyte together soon.
Also, and I am not saying this lightly, I am VERY thankful that you have received some kind of help, direction or guidance from my posts and the responses. I really DO try to post in a raw, nothing held back manner - in the hopes that it reaches people that are going through the same scenarios that I am. It light of me posting to others much, that is the best I can offer right now.
Anyhoooo, regarding all the things going on this week - someone enlightened me by telling me that while I am making progress, it just isn't "linear" - that there will be twists, turns and curves....makes sense and is probably a better way to look at things. Furthermore - since I really don't know the source of my w's mini break-down these last few days I am viewing it as an emotional "re-boot" of sorts. Something crashed the system, and it's going to take a bit of time for things to get back online again. I spoke with her this morning and she seems OK - but not "happy" or herself.
Thanks for the well wishes for Monday - I hope your next six months are better than the last.....hell, for both of us!
Crismon
Hey Crimson. I haven't posted much here in the past several months due to my need to focus on my own sitch. I happened across some posts in 'Part 11' that caught my interest, so I went back and read your very first post. Admittedly though, I haven't had time to catch up on everything that has happened to you.
But I wanted to drop by and throw you some support. I am on month 16 of my own sitch, much of it similar to so many others here, including yours.
I'm sure that you've been told time and time again that you are going to have to be patient, give this time, and work on changes for yourself... and that those changes have to be real. I can't tell you how many times I was told that when I was here posting every 15 minutes. LOL
The thing that I want to tell you is that there are no words that can fully describe just how true these things are. My W left me and was DONE with our M in November of 2010. It was 3 months later, after some major DBing, and me believing that I 'got it', that my W began to open up to the idea of reconciling. That was February of 2011. Since then? Crazy, crazy, crazy stuff has happened. Things that have challenged my idea of patience, my idea of giving things time, and what I thought was me working on me. Every time that I thought that I had this DB thing down, I was shown that I was only beginning. As for the crazy stuff that has happened to me, I'm sure that my posts are still around in the archives.
This past weekend, my W and I went to a marital retreat in Colorado Springs. Her idea. While she still hasn't committed to the M, she says that she is trying, and I definitely see her efforts... 15 1/2 months later.
My point? There is hope man. There is hope, but this is going to push you to limits that you never thought yourself capable of.
If I could go back and do one thing different though, it would be to not let the situation consume me like I let it. I know that I am still guilty of doing that to a degree, and I know that it is much easier to not have it consume you when things start looking up. But during the first 9-12 months of this, I lived and breathed the problems with my M. I was miserable. If I could go back, I think that I would try a little more to relax and let things happen rather than try to do whatever sort of mind control I thought I was doing by thinking about it every waking moment.
Something I learned at this marital retreat this past weekend that I identified with completely:
There is a path to healing a marital problem or conflict.
1. there is an offense committed by one spouse
2. the other spouse is hurt deeply
3. the hurt turns into anger which leads to isolation
4. the offending spouse must take ownership of his/her offense and seek forgiveness.
5. the hurt spouse may CHOOSE to forgive
6. Finally, there MAY be a rebuilding of trust in the M.
I think that most of us find that we are on the opposite end of the anger/isolation stage when we first come here. The goal is to get our WAS to forgive us.
But that is not the hard part. The hard part is the rebuilding of trust.
Forgiveness is NOT an automatic cure for the hurt that we have caused. And it is NOT forgetting the offense that caused the hurt.
Trust is not automatically reinstated when forgiveness is sought and given. It is rebuilt ONLY through CONSISTENT behavior over TIME.
It is here that patience comes into play. We must be patient and grace our spouses with the time that they need to believe in us again. To trust us with their hearts again.
After that session of the retreat, my W pointed out that this is what I/we have been doing over the past 16 months. She pointed out that she is not there yet. But she is trying. And I am finally, FINALLY, seeing it.
Stay patient brother. And don't let anyone tell you not to stay hopeful. Hope is the fuel that will keep you going.
Denver
Denver,
Just wanted to say that your post was really inspiring.
I really need to hear this sort of thing about keeping on in the face of hard times, and I know it will help so many here.
Thank you.
NLW - I know how much we need to read something hopeful and inspiring when we first come to this site. I hope to be able to continue and post a bit more than I have lately.
Seek out 25MLC if she hasn't already found you. I think that she will have great perspective on your sitch.
Denver -
I have heard your name toss about here over the few months that I have been posting. Thanks so much for dropping in on my thread.
I really needed to hear what you had to say and appreciate it. One of the things that struck me the most in what you posted was "I know that it is much easier to not have it consume you when things start looking up". Holy crap, is that true. Why is it that DB was easier when things looked more hopeless? What kind of paradox is that?
Thank you for reminding me to remain patient. That is key and a struggle - but it is literally woven into the DNA of DB I am learning.
Thanks again for dropping by - hope all is well.
Crimson
Denver's post was awesome! For me, the knowledge of how long his sitch has been and still going is comforting because it means a long time is not a M death sentence if you haven't got it together yet.
Crimbo - I think your comment about the DB process and R'ing not being linear is so true. You just hope that if you look at the whole graph, it is trending upwards. The problem is we can't see the graph!
Hope you catch the minor league game! That's something your boy will remember forever!
Minor schminor! It's full blown Cactus League spring training out here! Mariners, A's, Diamond Backs, Cubs, Angels.....and so on. Sadly, today's game coincides with Indiana's appearance in the second round of the Big Ten Tournament. It is INFINITELY more important that my s is a Hoosier fan - so I will make it an event for him!
I am terribly grateful for Denver's post defining what "progress" and the "long haul" really is. Inspiring to say the least.
Met w at 7AM to get coffee and pick up s. She was 100% back to normal it seems. She even reflected on a co-worker that was going through a REAL nervous break down and said she couldn't imagine what it would be like to feel that way all the time. We had a nice little chat - and as always, s and I were happy to see each other.
Maybe it was just something she needed to process or purge from her system - pretty much like EVERYONE said. Who knows. I'll be better prepared next time.
Crimson
I've never seen the west coast spring training. In AZ?
You'll appreciate this since from Indiana. Larry Bird...as much a legend here in Boston as there.
A few mornings age my W is on the net and looks over and says "Larry Bird died". I freaked like "WHAT" how?
She says, no I meant our bird died (his name's larry)
Sounds like an awesome sports weekend in your side of the states!
Maybe it was just something she needed to process or purge from her system - pretty much like EVERYONE said. Who knows. I'll be better prepared next time.
That's the ticket....
Denver -
I have heard your name toss about here over the few months that I have been posting. Thanks so much for dropping in on my thread.
I really needed to hear what you had to say and appreciate it. One of the things that struck me the most in what you posted was "I know that it is much easier to not have it consume you when things start looking up". Holy crap, is that true. Why is it that DB was easier when things looked more hopeless? What kind of paradox is that?
That's not exactly what I meant Crimson. I just meant that when things look bleak, it is really easy to let the pain and misery consume us. Things start to look more positive, we begin to feel better and ourselves again. My point was that even in the bleak times, I wish that I had let my mind relax more. When things were bad, I felt like the hamster in my head was working 24/7 and was going to have a heart attack at any minute. It made the misery worse, and I look back at all that time that I could have spent trying to enjoy life even a little bit.
DB should be a way of life. Not harder or easier depending on the status of your sitch.
What IS more difficult is when you are having a lot of contact with your spouse. I think that focusing in on the DB principles and strategies is easier when our spouse is wanting nothing to do with us. But when they start to come around, and start having daily conversations with us, it is more difficult to stay focused on what we have learned. But that is the only way to have it become part of our DNA as you said. Practice, practice, practice.
BTW, I'm jealous of your proximity to spring training! Big baseball fan.. big Rockies fan. Never been to spring training though.
Hang in there Crimson. Talk soon.
Denver
Hey Crimson,
This is precisely how we feel isn't it?
Certainly rang a bell for me:
"I felt like the hamster in my head was working 24/7 and was going to have a heart attack at any minute".
That's no way to live a life and no way to do good DB.
Denver's suggestion to relax our minds seems more do-able to me than framing it as the need to 'detach' - which seems SO counterintuitive.
I can imagine relaxing my mind more, not sweating every little thing, but as much as I try, I find it hard to think of myself as 'detached'.
Hope this helps a little.
Even with ultimately good results,
My biggest regret by far, in the 2-3 year period leading up to and including the separation,
was how much energy I spent focussed on the uncontrollable. Instead, I should have spent my energy on creating a happier fuller life for ME and my kids, which I COULD control...and SHOULD control anyhow.
When I finally truly detached, (In spurts of course, as others have said, it's not a linear path)
I started to turn things around inside...and it showed on the outside. Somehow when you know you are going to be just fine, with or without your spouse, and you like yourself again,
it radiates.
It attracts...
Learning to let all the uncontrollables in life go &
not just h's feelings/thoughts/plans OR my perceptions of them, but other parts of life as well...
has improved my life hugely. It's probably the best thing about DBing and it's also in the
12 Stepper's Serenity prayer, for a reason.
God, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot control,
the courage to change the things I can, and
the wisdom to know the difference.
It is a healthier happier way to live. And it SO helps the DB process.
good luck!
Great day with S! A lot of playing, he got a nice nap in, he cemented his role as "dog-poop monitor" in the backyard, we watched Rio....and....we went to the park and flew a kite....he loved it!
W texted more than usual today - asking how he was etc. - I let her know what we were up to. She texted me and said she was sitting on a patio playing cards with her friend and a Mexican restaurant by her place. I said it sounded fun and she said she "would rather be with her boy :(". I said this back to her and I will say it one time only......."you're more than welcome here - it's a mom-friendly zone". I will not be repeating that message anytime soon.
Hope all is well....or at least as good as it can be.
Crimson
I will say it one time only......."you're more than welcome here - it's a mom-friendly zone". I will not be repeating that message anytime soon.
Crimson
Yeah Crimson, probably shouldn't have even said it once. She already knows this. Trust me, I understand the temptation. Have done it plenty of times myself. It does you no good and will only prolong the process that you are going through. I like the positive interaction, but you should have given her one last response, 'well, have fun!' and left it at that.
Let your W figure out where she needs to be on her own. She doesn't need an invitation.
Denver
Hi, C. I just spent an hour reading your threads. My sit. H. less than 2 months ago dropped bomb. D. date April 12th. I'm trying to find apt. Im 58, he's 62 we are retired. I can't change his mind, no mc, no nuthin, so I'm going to move on, gal, be a better person, and hope, we were married 17 years, that in maybe 17 months, he still wants to be friends and we will see each other sometimes, he will see the new worked on me. It breaks my heart you have such a young child. I'm sure that adds to your intensity. Seeing w all the time must be hard. I've seen h. like 4 times in last 2 months and it always throws me for a couple days. Then I come here and really spend way to much time! and feel better. It feels like my timeline is so much slower and less intense, b/c I really am now starting to get that it's real and it's going to be a long haul and maybe nothing will work for us. But this is helping me cope with the here and now. You at least have some hope and maybe your child will help in more ways than one. Hang in. It's so good to see a man wanting to make it work?
Looking back on it, Denver - yeah - probably should have kept that one to myself. I know she knows that and it was a "twofer"- pressuring and fixing. All in one neat little sentence - nice work, Crimson.
Reading up on your situation I am glad you are where you are, man - you have really put in some long miles. You give me hope.
Regarding Cactus League out here - you really need to check out Salt River Fields where the D-Backs and Rockies share spring training. Awesome new stadium where even the grass says "come....have a beer with me". Also if you are ever up near the next Rockies game - you have GOTTA try Billy's Gourmet Hotdogs on Larimer. Sublime.
Crimson
Crimbo - baseball heaven...man that sounds good.
I like how you see your simple text to your W as a twofer. I think the more you relax and enjoy, the easier it is to see with clarity how simple things like a text will appear to your W. It's such a win because you are relaxed enough to see it from both sides, easily know how it works or doesn't in the DB world, and don't get wrapped aroung the axle with worry. Be happy first and the rest falls into place (basically what 25 said above). It doesn't mean you or any of us failed because we weren't able to do that right away after the bomb....it means you developed a new life insight, and like all tough paths, the lesson resonates within you.
Keep enjoying.....let go and live...and know that the Redsox will be in the world series in 2012!
Well gang - leaving for round two of S 2-year-old pics. I am actually invited in this one and encouraged to participate! W's sister will be there, too. W arranged this so I am not going to bet my liver that there will be a picture of the three of us together, but I am just happy to be there I think.
Got the baby all cleaned up and in nice clothes. Funny - w asked me what I was going to wear via text - I said I had no idea since I don't feel like I look good in much these days. She told be to go shop. The "less baggy the better". Clearly she is aware my clothes aren't fitting terribly well due to the DB diet.
Went and got a new shirt and some new jeans. Waist is now clocking in at 34" - haven't seen that mark since college. Going to go back to the LRT technique of trying to look good - maybe she'll notice! If not - hey, there are a lot go bars in the area. KIDDING!!!
Hope all is well.
Crimson
You stud you!
Enjoy the pics...in a few years your son will only think about what crazy faces he can make for the camera!
Have fun with the pics! The invite is a step. Enjoy the moment and check the expectations!
Well, gotta say that went well. We got a few pictures together, some with just the baby, and some with me, w, her sister and our boy. We all had a GREAT time. Funny thing happened that has never happened before. S was a little scared at first with all of the attention from the photographer and everything and he just ran to me and hid between my legs. Odd thing is, his mom was standing right there and he ran to me instead. That has never, ever, ever, ever happened. I mean, it's not an "I win!" thing. Rather, it was more like "we've come a long way together - you and me, son". The rest was me and my w and SIL jumping around like a bunch of idiots trying to make the baby laugh and smile - the pics are going to look great when they are done.
At the end of the shoot we were all just hanging around our cars and I was holding the baby. I looked at my wife and her sister and said "believe it or not, as handsome as we look tonight - s and I don't have dates tonight and would love to take you two to dinner."
We went to a little pizza place that we all like near our house. Had a few cocktails and enjoyed each other and the baby. It was great food, great convo and great atmosphere.
After I got home wife texted me and said "Thanks". I said you're welcome - I had a great time hanging with everyone - you looked great for the pictures." A bit later she texted back "I'll be at the 9 AM church tomorrow". Now I have my moments when I am dumb as a bag of hair clippings, but was that an invite for church? I'll assume it was and pray that it wasn't the cabernet talking.
It was a good day. Rocked my son to sleep, read "If you give a mouse a cookie" for the millionth time. Laughed with son a bit - and put him down.
I'll soak this in so next time I can refer to it when I start freaking out.
Crimson
I'll soak this in so next time I can refer to it when I start freaking out.
Glad the day was so good for all of you. This statement above is what's good for YOU! (Love that book by the way. Also, the follow up, "If you Give a Moose a Muffin")
Crimson, it sounds like you had an excellent afternoon. Lots of great interactions with W and SIL and of course your S. Cherish the moments.
"A bit later she texted back "I'll be at the 9 AM church tomorrow". Now I have my moments when I am dumb as a bag of hair clippings, but was that an invite for church?"
I would say that that was an invitation. But to be on the safe side, maybe you can send a text that says something like "mind if S and I join you tomorrow?" Or if you want to be cute, you could say, "funny, S and I were going to be there at excatly the same time. What a coincidence! ;o)"
"A bit later she texted back "I'll be at the 9 AM church tomorrow". Now I have my moments when I am dumb as a bag of hair clippings, but was that an invite for church?"
That was 100% an invitation. In women talk, statements are questions and questions are statements.
But to be on the safe side, maybe you can send a text that says something like "mind if S and I join you tomorrow?"
Not this way -- this is weak and implicitly devalues you (why should someone mind if someone of value was joining them).
Or if you want to be cute, you could say, "funny, S and I were going to be there at excatly the same time. What a coincidence! ;o)"
Potentially better, flip it in an active, confident (flirty?) way. I'll be there with S too. Let's hook up at ### spot."
you also could just show up with S looking good and give her a little surprise.
Crimbo - great story and you are living your life in the moment...nice! Your boy running to you is the highest form of feedback about where you have gotten to. Your wife would have to be Hellen Keller not to notice that, and that's how you guys can live going forward.
I understand your comments Busto, but Crimson's wife gets "pressured" a lot whenever he makes the slightest assumption. I think he's concerned about that.
But to me it was an invitation (unless there's some other reason you need to know where she'll be then like dropping son off??)
I hate ambiguity...but as I told you before, if we can learn to embrace those ambiguities, life gets easier.
A bit later she texted back "I'll be at the 9 AM church tomorrow".
Now THAT is about the most positive move she's made yet! (And about time, I may add.)
*whew*....so much to say tonight.
Well, 2TP, I went with the show up and surprise tactic for church. S and I appeared there at 9 and met w. She was very happy to see the both of us I think - especially s. It was good to see her, and good to be there in general. I've wanted to go recently, but was afraid that I would be encroaching on her space. Her sister was there, too - it was a family day. We put s in the day care for the length of the service.
Wanna hear something rather cool, if not divinely sent? So for the past two or three weeks the song "Heaven" by Los Lonely Boys has been in heavy rotation in my car/iPod. No particular reason - I just like the melody and guitar part in it (if you look it up on YouTube you've probably heard it). I've been singing it....singing it to s when we are in the car together. So at church today, the band there out of the blue starts playing the opening guitar refrain from the song....I'm like "what the hell??".....then I look at the program and the ENTIRE sermon/message today was built around the meaning(s) of that song. Unreal. If you look up the lyrics, not only is it a potential anthem for a woeful but hopeful LBS, but the lyrics are really impactful for anyone going through something rough. NO WONDER I WAS DRAWN TO IT!! I had no idea. I won't go into the specifics of the message today, but read the lyrics when you have a chance. Unreal that that was the message the day I finally show back up.
So w, s, sil and I went to a light breakfast after church. I was standing in line and saw a former coworker and suddenly had no idea how to introduce my w. So I just said "this is my son....". Later in the line, w said "you didn't introduce me!" she wasn't angry.....just kinda laughing. So I did. I said "this is my wife". No better way to put it really - what was there to say? We wrapped up breakfast and w and sister had to go to Target. I took S home and put him down for his nap. And, not to be one to let a toddler nap alone, I took one too.
Later in the day I ran to REI to pick up a few things. Decided to go to the store to get some things to grill for dinner. I texted my wife "Men grilling tonight....salmon for the lady?". She replied "what time and what should I bring?". S and I swept through the grocery store and put together some things to make carne asada, pollo asado and fish tacos.
So s and I are manning the grill in the backyard and the doorbell rings. I thought it was w, but it was out neighbor down the street and her two little kids that are friends with S. She has remained friends with W and I have not heard from her much since things went south. I just figured she thought I was a massive creeper. She came in, had a beer with me while I cooked and our kids played together.
W showed up and was surprised to see neighbor there. They had a really nice chat while I poured sangria and kept on grillin'. Neighbor left after about 45 minutes or so.
One of the things that I never really grasped onto in my marriage was the fact that my W loved when I would cook for her and as our relationship aged, I kinda quit doing it. So today was a treat for me to be able to do it again. W, s and I all sat at the table - put on some blues and enjoyed a great dinner.
Now, old Crimson would have finished dinner and started in on the clean-up right away (OCD). Nope. Refreshed my wife's drink, cracked open another beer and went outside to watch S play in the yard.
We sat on a bench by the pool and had a nice chat. She basically said it's amazing how much S and I have bonded...she can tell. I told her that I loved being a father, being a dad. I told her that if our sitch had never happened I would not have ever gotten to know it as much as I do now. She said that as she was teetering on the line on whether rot stay or go one of the last straws was that she wanted S to know that there was "better" out there. That there were more engaged fathers, that parents kiss and hold hands....she didn't want him to grow up in a home where that was not the norm. After all this time, I got it. I finally got it. And I understand why she made the choice that she made. It was a really, nice long chat.
We came inside and wife gave s a bath while I cleaned up the kitchen and packed son's lunch for tomorrow. S came bounding down the stairs in fresh PJs clean and spring itself. We took him back upstairs - w sat in her old chair in his room and read to him. I sat on the floor and just basked in one of the happiest moments I have had in recent memory. S fell asleep and we both put few blankets on him and left the room.
W said she had better get going. We talked about our schedules tomorrow and she sat on the couch to put her shoes back on. Then she said something odd...."it's surreal, isn't it....me being back in the house?". I said well....I don't DIS-like it. She said she knows, but it just felt odd after being gone so long. Not in a bad way, but I think she thought she would never return when she left. I gave her the leftovers since she will have S most of next week (hey, kid is getting an appetite!) walked her out to her car and said good-bye. She thanked me for dinner - and said I'll see you tomorrow (we have fertility doc appointment). I came back inside and reflected. Here is what I concluded.
THAT....what just happened....dinner....TV off....cell phone away....cooking for w and s....playing with him in the backyard.....putting him to sleep together. THAT is what is what it was supposed to be. THAT is what my w wanted from me, from her marriage, for her her life - and I missed it, 100%. And today, to have it back if even for a second.....to have her here with me and my son, living (albeit for a few hours) like a family - was one of the happiest moments I have had in the last 6 months. Hell, 3 years if I am being honest. In my moment of reflection I was made keenly aware of how right my w had been about so many things that I was blind to - and felt today. It's not about cleaning the kitchen, or checking Facebook or my cell phone. It's not about catching up with the news or having the TV on. It's about the small moments that never come back. It's about the dinners, the conversations, watching our son together, sharing our day. THAT is what my W meant when she told me "YOU'RE GOOD AT THE BIG THINGS, BUT YOU ARE TERRIBLE WITH THE SMALL THINGS AND THE SMALL THINGS MATTER!!!!!" on the day she dropped the bomb. And all I could do at that time is defend myself....tell her why she was wrong. Looking at all that I have been through it is now abundantly clear that I was the one that is wrong. A lot.
I hope this day repeats itself again soon....many times. I still have a ways to go, but today and this weekend was a nice step in the right direction. Hell, W even set foot in our bedroom and made a "bachelor living" joke.
If anyone is reading this note from me for the first time, please don't think that I have arrived here quickly....hell, I don't even really know where "here" is. It's been a long, painful road of reflection and loss....and there are still no guarantees that it will end the way I want it to. But I can tell you that if there is still something left that even CLOSELY resembles love for you in your w's heart, DBing can work. Even though we still have the petition pending, I am miles away from the low point that I hit so many months. I literally just had my wife over and cooked dinner for her. Read my first post and then go wrap your brain around that for awhile.
Hope everyone is doing the best they can today.
Crimson
Very happy for you Crimson, your night and weekend sound great, I hope their is more where that came from.
Nice job Crimson! Things are definitely looking up for you. I'm very happy at how things are progressing with you and your W. Good luck with the fertility appt. tomorrow!
Crimson, I am in tears for you and your blissful Sunday. It sounds like a little piece of heaven...nothing better than church, lunch out, my personal favorite Sunday afternoon nap, great grilling and family time. Thinking of you and sending up praises.
Positive day, a lot of good things happening all the way around...
For you
For her
For your son
The BEST part( from what I read), was that you lived in the moment, and left the world of "what if's".
Try to continue that today.....
And I'm still waiting for that story
: )
The BEST part( from what I read), was that you lived in the moment, and left the world of "what if's".
This is so true. In your recent sitch, Crimson, we've seen you struggle with the impending D date, negative thoughts about your W's intentions/motives, expectations about what may or may not happen. Don't live in the past (depression) or the future/what if's (anxiety), because they will lead you astray.
Live in and accept your current reality always, as you did over the weekend. And you did so confidently, surprising her at the church and leading her to a good day of togetherness on Sunday. Good job!
Very inspiring. Thanks for posting that. You did really well with just enjoying your family time w/o letting your insecurities and questions ruin the day. You modeled good husband material to your w in the most natural, non-contrived way. Bravo!
Mimi
Thanks, all. I re-read my post from last night and it almost felt like a weird dream....her being at the house. I am really grateful for this past weekend. Not just because of positive w interactions, but S and I had a great bonding time as well. I think we watched the movie Rio about a half-dozen times. We have also perfected the art of me saying "dad! dad! dad!" and him replying "poop! poop! poop!". Perhaps that shouldn't make me laugh - but I am a child and it cracks me the h@ll up.
So the fertility doctor appointment is today -that should be interesting. If you would have asked my w 7 months ago if we would be at this appointment today she would have flatly said "no"...and then probably would have cried. Frankly, I can't believe I am going either - but I DO want another child - just not as a divorced man. I think she knows that. I'll be honest - I am really excited to go. I am trying to NOT be, but I am. That Dr.'s office is filled with so many bitter-sweet memories for us.
Crimson
Amazing and inspiring post and story.
It is just nice to have these to read as a bit of fresh air or light in the darkness. I know my Sitch is on a downward path right now and I fully expect W will be moving out this summer (and in some ways I think she needs that too), but reading your story helps give me hope that we might be able to work back upward and maybe find days or moments like you did again.
So thank you for sharing
If anyone is reading this note from me for the first time, please don't think that I have arrived here quickly....hell, I don't even really know where "here" is. It's been a long, painful road of reflection and loss....and there are still no guarantees that it will end the way I want it to. But I can tell you that if there is still something left that even CLOSELY resembles love for you in your w's heart, DBing can work. Even though we still have the petition pending, I am miles away from the low point that I hit so many months. I literally just had my wife over and cooked dinner for her. Read my first post and then go wrap your brain around that for awhile.
Crimson - I am SO glad you had a positive Sunday!
You don't know how much I needed to hear read this story. Reflection is something I do daily. It's amazing what I'm learning about ME that I never knew!
THANK YOU!
Crimbo - you have done so much hard work...been so unbelievably honest....have been willing to hear every one of us try to help...took any constructive criticism by manning up every time.
I am so overwhelmingly glad that you see what it means to live in the moment, and see the endless priceless opportunities that are staring us all in the face if we just slow down and live and laugh.
You're an inspiration to a lot of people.
Got to check that song on youtube now!
Oh yeah...that song....like!
Well the fert appointment went pretty well. Walking back into that office really conjured up some old ghosts....good and bad. However, we always had a good, honest relationship with the doctor and the staff. We hugged our old nurse like she was family.
I think we kind of know what we would LIKE to do - but there are clearly some obstacles and challenges we need to get out of the way before anything truly happens.
Walking out of the clinic, my w gave me a really long hug. First one in 6 months. I really didn't know what to do or say. I mean, yeah, I hugged her back - but I felt like a nervous 17 year old kid still.
W had an appointment later in the day, but we met up for dinner to exchange s. We had a really good talk. She basically said what a lot of the WAWs and WAW experts here said she would say. She is scared that things will go back to the way that they were. I told her that I understood why she felt that way, and it was justifiable. She also said she felt we never truly had that "honeymoon" phase. She may be right - but I told her it wasn't for lack of feelings - it was more along the lines of me not being able to confidently express those feelings.
We did not talk about the D, L's or anything. But she does know that I want a family, not just babies. I think if we can keep working on things in a positive manner we might be OK. I have IC with our MC tomorrow - she has it Wednesday.
Come to find out that her "appointment" this afternoon was with a counselor that she has been seeing on her own. I had no idea. I guess she had been sharing her fears of falling back into old patterns with me again - I have no idea what the counselor told her but it must have helped.
I will cautiously move forward.
Crimson
Crimson
Just catching up on your sitch.
Things seem to be going well
And you seem to be becoming the man you set out to become.
Good for you.
Positive day, a lot of good things happening all the way around...
For you
For her
For your son
The BEST part( from what I read), was that you lived in the moment, and left the world of "what if's".
Try to continue that today.....
And I'm still waiting for that story
: )
what he said...well done Crimson
Still thinking on the story. Seriously!
[quote=Crimson]She is scared that things will go back to the way that they were. I told her that I understood why she felt that way, and it was justifiable. She also said she felt we never truly had that "honeymoon" phase. She may be right - but I told her it wasn't for lack of feelings - it was more along the lines of me not being able to confidently express those feelings./quote]
Fert appointment and sharing sound nice.
You did a nice job with her first fear of listening to her and validating her.
Re: the honeymoon phase (or really for all her fears), make sure you really draw her out and help her feel safe to tell you exactly what it was that bothered her about not having a honeymoon phase or what she would like to be different or considers a honeymoon phase. (instead of trying to fix/explain why there was not a honeymoon phase).
It's really all about connecting/listening/validating. Really, the listening/connecting/validating will "fix" alot more than any explanation you can provide. If she feels understood and heard, she will feel so much safer with you.
Crimson - things really seem to be moving in the right direction for you. Keep working at it!
Walking out of the clinic, my w gave me a really long hug. First one in 6 months. I really didn't know what to do or say. I mean, yeah, I hugged her back - but I felt like a nervous 17 year old kid still.
To my mind, this ^^^ was a huge step for your W. Take it slow, but things really are looking up. I must admit to being envious of you.
C, I missed your new post. No wonder there wasn't any action on your last one.
I'm very excited about your last couple of days. You know where my money lies.... I really look forward to being able to say "I told you so!"
It's really all about connecting/listening/validating. Really, the listening/connecting/validating will "fix" alot more than any explanation you can provide. If she feels understood and heard, she will feel so much safer with you.
I love this, Busto.
Crimson, thank you so much for sharing your story about your dinner with your W and S. Your words towards the end of your post were so profound and a great deal can be learned from just that one post. I'm excited for you and for the turn of events that are starting to happen. Well done!
Crimbo - you continue to grow and it is very obvious from your posts that you have achieved so much by being brutally honest with yourself. The greatest thing I see in you is your newfound ability to live in the moment.
Think of how you just changed a pattern that had been ingrained in you your entire life, one that threatened your family. Think of how hard that is to do, and then it makes it easier to see how you W is struggling with her own questions, the depth of them.
Your journey is very inspirational and many should look to it as a success story.
Keep laughing, keep living in the moment!
I am going to title this post: "DEALING WITH THE AFTERMATH".
So as I was leaving IC yesterday (it went well, BTW)w texted that she needed help fixing the garbage disposal at her place - it was backed up and not grinding. I told her that I would go home, grab some tools and head over to take a look at it.
I got over there and played with s for a little bit and then tackled the repair. When I was finished w made some dinner for me (ironically from the leftovers I gave her when she came over for dinner on Sunday). She poured some wine for us and we just kinda goofed around with our soo for awhile. During that time I mangaged to fix a few other minor things at her place. It felt good to be "useful".
We put the baby to sleep and I was fully prepared to leave - but she asked if I wanted to sit on the patio with her for awhile. She poured a bit more wine and we began to chat. I'll skip to the meat of this so you can understand the title above.
Issue #1: Our friend. I think w is reaching a point where she really wants to try again - though we are not "there" yet. What I discovered was that she has some residual issues not necessarily with me, but with a very good friend of ours that I "got in the divorce". When the bomb dropped I stayed with her for about a week as I tried to compose myself. In the meantime, friend had somehow mangaged to ask w once or twice if there was "someone else". I remember at the time wife bellowing on the phone "If that is what she thinks of me then we can just sever all ties!". Apparently w is of the belief that if our friend knew her that long and thought that she would leave me for someone else then she didn't want to be friends with her.
It's a problem because this friend was very much a part of our lives, and she has been a stable spot for me during this whole ordeal. W said that after everything is resolved she doubts she can ever be friends with her again. She said that if I want to hang out with her separately, or with her and our s - fine. But she wants no part of her. Mostly, if not exclusively, because she asked w if she was cheating and w was deeply offended and insulted. They were friends, hung out together, appreciated one another - and she is still in my life. How do I manage this? Is it temporary? Will she ever forgive? Am I suppposed to carve this person out of my life?
Issue #2: Her dad. I didn't expect this, but her father really soured on me during this process. Felt that I basically left w (his daughter!) to suffer in the wind and made everything "about me" during this process. I think he felt that I should have been giving her money and providing for her after she left. He saw his daughter in bad, bad, bad shape physically, mentally and emotionally and traced the root cause to me - and felt like I did nothing to help her. I told her that during that period I felt that her moving out was her establishing her independence and ANY help from me would be read as "you can't do this on your own, let me help" - I felt that she would resent it. As it turns, out - she wanted help from me but never asked for it (well, I guess she did through her lawyer). I think this really angered her father. I get it, it's about him not wanting to see his daughter suffering in the manner that she was. However, I think he is of the belief that I was fat, drunk and happy over at my place looking for ways to destroy his daughter's life. That just wasn't the case. Hell, I am finally getting w to understand that wasn't the case either. It's funny that she has a total different recollection of events than I do. She swears that I said "I'm not giving you a dime!" and I have no memory of that. She also says that I threatened to kick her off of my health insurance when what I actually said was "you won't have health insurance if we are separated/divorced". It's as if she felt that I was being intentionally cruel and threatening when the fact of the matter is I was deeply hurt and scared. Yes, that did make me angry at times - but it was not the dominant emotion AT ALL. Remember when I bought her the bed? I told her if I was that angry and wanted her to suffer I never would have done that - I told her that it broke my heart to know she was sleeping on the floor.
Now it seems that she has conveyed a monsterous image of me to her dad and step-mother that they are fully bought into. I agree that I wasn't the best husband ever, but I never, ever sought to hurt her. My heart was breaking, I wanted her back and I was just trying to find a way to deal with the pain. It was like I was 90% dead on the inside and expected to function and rationalize like normal.
When she told him that I wrote "the letter" and read some of it to him she said all he really said was "nope....you have given him 8 years of your life.....move on....he's making it all about him".
I had a good relationship with her father, I told him to never worry because I was taking good care of his daughter....I thought I was. Now I feel awful because in his eyes I violated that and left his daughter (and grandson!) in the cold to suffer. How do I deal with this if/when the time comes? It seems as though he views me as a monster now. W told me that he has issues from his marriage to w's mom and may be projecting some things on me. Still - it's hard to navigate.
Issue #3: The house. W said that she doesn't know if she could ever move back into our house again because of emotional reasons. She asked if I would ever consider moving. Which I am OK with, but like most of our state/county we are upside down a wee bit and couldn't really sell. How do I make my way around this? I like the house, don't want to move and can't afford to move anyway right now. Will she ever be able to live comfortably there again? Is there anything I can do that would help her feel more at home there?
Sorry for the novel. Just have a lot to process. W texted me this morning to see if I made it home OK, she thanked me for all my help around the house and told me not to take on any shame or guilt because of how her father feels.
Crimson
C - Not much time to respond fully, just a reminder that #1 priority is your W, all other items you list are temporary...house, friend, etc.
If you work togther with W, I believe you can heal the connection w/ her family. Problems, but good problems to be discussing. Good luck!
Crimson - a few quick thoughts (typing on my blackberry is difficult).
Sounds like some very promising developments. Regarding the friend, it is probably best for you to simply validate your W's feelings on the matter. Time will tell if there is ever to be an opportunity to resurrect the R with the friend. If you and your W are able to R then the capacity is there for your W to forgive and maybe there will come a time with the friend as well.
The issue with the house is not uncommon. I think it was Busto who said he had to sell his house for the same reason as your W has indicated. Being under water is a drag but perhaps you could lease to someone else untill the market improves.
Regarding her father, I think you are going to have to let your W work through this with her father. There is probably no constructive thing you can do at this point. At least not until you and your W have fully reconciled. I think this is why we are often told to be very careful about what we say and who we tell about the issues in our sitch's. For me, I've not discussed the "specifics" of my sitch with anyone other that my IC. I did not want to have to deal with untangling messes if we get back together, so I keep my mouth shut.
All in all, things are really looking up for you! Bravo!
regarding #1...who and what is more important. Your M and your W or this "friend"? If you don't know the answer, perhaps you aren't ready.
I think you can let all of these issues wait for now. There is not much you can do about your w's relationship with your mutual friend. Just validate her feelings and let her handle it unless she asks you do to something specific. I mean, I wouldn't go out and invite your w and this friend together to dinner anytime soon, but I can't see that there's anything affirmative for you to do in this sitch.
The image of you that your fil has will have to be broached initially by your w if you do R. She is one who told her dad these things and she will have to approach him when the time comes. You can help by doing your part to make your relationship with him as smooth as possible and try to understand where his antagonism is coming from (it sounds like you already do). The only thing I can think of to do right now is to affirm to your w that you would value a good relationship with your fil again someday. That way she doesn't feel that there would be bad feelings on both sides if she decides to R with you.
As for the house, maybe you could get some information from a real estate agent as to its market value, lease value, etc. and present it to w if she asks about it again. That way, she knows that you took her concerns seriously. I wouldn't jump the gun and put the house on the market right away or anything. But just do some research in the meantime so you can respond to her when she raises the issue again.
All good stuff!
Mimi
So we already have 1 rental property (her old condo) and I think in the current mortgage marketing getting a THIRD mortgage while we lease two homes in almost impossible. The best that I can tell her is that I am pretty sure that is not the house we are going to die in, so we won't be there forever. For the short term, next few years or so, there may me no real way out.
Regarding our friend, the best that I can do is hope that time will heal this wound if given a chance. But I must really dedicate to putting her first.
Regarding FIL - w suggested I send him a letter. Not sure how I feel about that considering how he had no faith/belief in the fact that the letter I wrote w was genuine....and that it was "all about me". Again, this is something she will have to handle.....as I will have to handle with my parents as well (though I started the process with them awhile ago and they HAVE made progress).
These ARE good problems to have. But is she really wants to go down the IVF path again, we can't really do it from two different homes. Well we COULD, but I would need a more solid commitment from her to the relationship.
Crimson
Crimson...
ok-
big picture---GOOD...up close, some stuff to deal with.
I
think you can let all of these issues wait for now. There is not much you can do about your w's relationship with your mutual friend. Just validate her feelings and let her handle it unless she asks you do to something specific.
agree w/^^^ it can wait...& I would add that your friend was trying to help you by asking that question b/c to the friend, w's leaving to sleep "somewhere" on the floor made no sense unless there was OM. THEN she could wrap her brain around it...b/c like you - your friend had trouble understanding things at first.
She was being loyal TO YOU & trying to help and I'd bet I have asked the SAME thing...
Please don't punish her for her loyalty. I think in time your w willl come around if you validate and perhaps say that your flaws as a h were less apparent to the friend (but real for your w, etc) after all, her dad thought the world of you too, before all the stuff came out. Is it really so odd that YOUR friend would wonder about w's choice to leave, if all she saw in you as a h, were the same things your fil saw before his d told him her version?
and if your w cannot move past that, then leave it alone for now.
But it's not a dealbreaker obviously. IF the friend has to go...do it gently and kindly. I don't think it's fair, but neither is life...
I mean, I wouldn't go out and invite your w and this friend together to dinner anytime soon, but I can't see that there's anything affirmative for you to do in this sitch.
The image of you that your fil has will have to be broached initially by your w if you do R. She is one who told her dad these things and she will have to approach him when the time comes. You can help by doing your part to make your relationship with him as smooth as possible and try to understand where his antagonism is coming from (it sounds like you already do). The only thing I can think of to do right now is to affirm to your w that you would value a good relationship with your fil again someday. That way she doesn't feel that there would be bad feelings on both sides if she decides to R with you.
AFTER your w has undone some of her wording and opened her father up to the idea she might have been seeing you thru some dark glasses, AND that people can change and you are THE example of that for her (and your mc's too) then
I wonder if you could wait a few more weeks or, say, 2 months (monitor for progress and all that of course, for timing)
and broach the topic with him yourself, as you may have done when you wanted to ask for her hand in m...
maybe a "man to man" thing where you own up to shortcomings and discuss the new man you are working to become now, (if HE is a role model for you in any way, tell him-if it's true)
that you are working to have a new better marriage than before AND that in some ways, you thank God she left you, to wake you up, b/c now you "get it".
Give that example of the evening without the cell phones or tv on and how you now see that is what she wanted all along. You Had thought her love language was gift getting, (maybe it's 2nd?)
but it is quality time...the "small things that count" to her. & that you thought "providing for" meant - earning more..(hello? these traits in men are not that rare.)
So Now you are awake. She and son are your priorities and you will never lose sight of that again.
My niece's long time boyfriend, whom I rather liked, kept delaying a proposal for marriage. Said he "liked things how they were," She moved out.
Within 2 weeks he proposed w/a ring & explained that he had to marry her b/c when he imagined life w/o her,
he couldn't sleep or eat or think straight. Hearing all that, moved me a lot. They remain happily m now, 16 years later.
One thing he DID admit later, was he hated the idea of a big crowd at their wedding. He is from a very wealthy family, but he is an introvert. I think some of his fears were not only about commitment in general, but about the wedding itself -as wacky as that sounds. They had a wedding of immediate family only. (At least my side of the family saved a fortune). 
So As for the different recall of events -all I can say is that it's so common & it's not always plain old rationalizing.
My H does NOT believe he "would EVER" say he was "willing to take the chance on losing our family, for a JOB" -
but I can tell you where I was and what I was doing when he said it (the guest bathroom, spackling...)
I had specifically asked him if that was what he was doing OR was he bluffing, he said "Guess I'm willing to take THAT chance."
So in his mind he didn't SAY all of it, but it is exactly what I asked...so MUST we agree? No-- and it's impossible to agree on memory anyhow...
Heck, 2 eye witnesses to an accident, who have no emotional stake in the matter, won't often agree.
My H has "forgotten" a lot and in truth it's probably too painful for him to recall. MAYBE you fit in there somewhere...and your w's fears do too. She may have heard what she feared, not what you said, let alone what you meant.
Seems You both do a lot of mind reading...
What really matters is that you two agree on what you want in the future, &from this day forward. Just like the vows say...
As for the house, maybe you could get some information from a real estate agent as to its market value, lease value, etc. and present it to w if she asks about it again. That way, she knows that you took her concerns seriously. I wouldn't jump the gun and put the house on the market right away or anything. But just do some research in the meantime so you can respond to her when she raises the issue again.
All good stuff!
Mimi
Substantively Mimi has touched on the points. "Procedure" may matter more now, ie HOW you problem solve together and resolve conflicts
matters more (to your w at least, and imo to you as well) matters more than the actual choice made. So
Make the decision as a team --
and make sure ALL of HER concerns are addressed.
Then, If she has all the same information as you,
and she reflects on it, and she STILL wants to sell at a loss and cannot wait,
(instead of thinking she is "wrong"--and she might be!!!)
realize it must be very important to her to start fresh in every way.
Not so hard to know what to do then, is it? Also, it is more than a symbolic 180.
Keep up the great work and hold onto your hard won progress.
(((( )))
Can you move into her old condo?
Do you remember the long talk I had about her needing to feel that she was first place, above ANYONE else in your life? You had robbed her of that first place, and it's not something she has gotten over yet. You stepped up to your parents. Don't you dare let a friend come before your wife! Right now, your W just needs the assurance that if she can no longer be friends with that woman, you will not put the friend above your W. And, I do not believe in M people having "friendships" with the opposite sex that exclude the S. Even though she says you could still hang out with the female friend, she would be jealous and it would come between you in the M. Don't be this crazy!
It's her dad! It's completely normal for him to feel that way about his daughter! Of course you were a cad in his opinion. But, remember how
YOUR PARENTS felt about her? Don't even get me started!
She just wants to know that you would be willing to sell if that would make her happy. She isn't asking you to do it today.
Crimson, you have cried over your stitch too many times and would have offered up anything just to get her back. Now, you are looking at "issues"?
Thanks for the feedback, friends. I think I have a generally good head on me at the moment regarding where my attitude needs to be and what my next steps are. I am hopeful that w and friend can iron things out - I know our friend wants to. If not, well - I get that conclusion too.
Sandi - I have not looked past all the good that has happened at all. I am incredibly shocked and happy that I am where I am right now. I think the identification of issues is just my way of fine-tuning a bit and making sure I have all things in proper perspective right now.
The three of us had dinner last night again - yet another good time. No talk of D, R or anything else. Just catching up some more. W dropped me off back at the house and as I was walking into the garage shouted out "love you!" from the back of her car. That was a great way to wrap up the night.
Crimson
Wow, Crimson, I'm very happy for you and have a bit of a lump in my throat.
The three of us had dinner last night again - yet another good time. No talk of D, R or anything else. Just catching up some more. W dropped me off back at the house and as I was walking into the garage shouted out "love you!" from the back of her car. That was a great way to wrap up the night.
That is HUGE!!!!! So happy for you! Keep it going!!
CRIPES!!!! I meant my SON said that....not W. Yeah - that would have been big, but Noooooo that did NOT come from my W.
Crimson
I wondered why she was in the back of her car...
Yeah, LA - if my wife was shouting out "I love you!" from the back of her car I would HOPE that I was back there with her!
Crimson
CRIPES!!!! I meant my SON said that....not W. Yeah - that would have been big, but Noooooo that did NOT come from my W.
Crimson
Oh well! In that case, I take back everything I said!
Keep working, you'll get the "I love you".
Thanks for the feedback, friends. I think I have a generally good head on me at the moment regarding where my attitude needs to be and what my next steps are. I am hopeful that w and friend can iron things out - I know our friend wants to. If not, well - I get that conclusion too.
Sandi - I have not looked past all the good that has happened at all. I am incredibly shocked and happy that I am where I am right now. I think the identification of issues is just my way of fine-tuning a bit and making sure I have all things in proper perspective right now.
The three of us had dinner last night again - yet another good time. No talk of D, R or anything else. Just catching up some more. W dropped me off back at the house and as I was walking into the garage shouted out "love you!" from the back of her car. That was a great way to wrap up the night.
Crimson
that is HUGE....
not to throw a wrench anywhere but has anything legal happened or are you staying silent on that and hoping it gets Un-done? I'm thinking that's the path but don't recall.
So we already have 1 rental property (her old condo) and I think in the current mortgage marketing getting a THIRD mortgage while we lease two homes in almost impossible. The best that I can tell her is that I am pretty sure that is not the house we are going to die in, so we won't be there forever. For the short term, next few years or so, there may me no real way out.
Oh come on, Crimson. What's more important in the long run? Losing thousands of dollars to the current housing market (which is recovering) or finding somewhere where you, your wife and S might be able to live together feeling safe and secure with a fresh start.
Money is replaceable, safety and security are not.
I may be saying this based on my own past choices, but my W said the identical thing about not feeling safe or secure that she could EVER move into our old house. I asked her if she thought remodeling the house might be enough or not. She said, well, yeah, maybe, hmmm I'd have to see. I thought about it and decided it was much more important that I look out for my W the way I hadnt before. We bought a new house. During the piecing period before we got the house, I would go to her apt to hang out and sleep ~50% of the time or so. She only set foot in our old house twice and for only about 10 minutes each time.
Yeah, LA - if my wife was shouting out "I love you!" from the back of her car I would HOPE that I was back there with her!
Crimson
Uhh, yeah, I was wondering if you HAD been in the back of the car with her prior to that. LOL.
25 - Please see my editorial note - my S said "Love you" not W. Typing error on my part. Or perhaps Freudian wishful thinking?
Sandi - Was going to mention and forgot. The mutual female friend that we share that w isn't happy with is a married lesbian. My w has nothing at all to fear there.
Busto - I am trying to prepare myself mentally if that is what is going to have to occur. Won't like it, but would probably do it.
Crimson
She has something to fear there even if you don't agree that it's legitimate. The fact is that W objects to this friend. Why?
Sandi - Was going to mention and forgot. The mutual female friend that we share that w isn't happy with is a married lesbian. My w has nothing at all to fear there.
Okay. Wife might not have jealously from a sexual insecurity where friend is concerned. However, until W feels secure in the MR, she will be very sensitive to any R's that take more of your time & attention than what you're giving her. Now, don't blow this out of the water. B/c once she feels she "owns" first place in your heart/life, then she will begin to mellow out. But since this was a very big issue for her, then it seems to me that you would need to be cautious.
She has something to fear there even if you don't agree that it's legitimate. The fact is that W objects to this friend. Why?
I'm with Adinva here.
Speaking as a former hurt WAW who use to never feel first place with my H, I just want you to understand how critical it is that she sees you are
willing to cut your time with others (or maybe even cut the friendship with particulars)...
if she has a problem with any.
Even though she said you could still hang out with this mutual friend, in her heart she really wants to hear something like...."Honey, I hate to lose this friend but if you can't be friends with her...then that's good enough for me, too".
Your W wants to see where you place your loyalty. That will be a healing suave for her. In time, she might be able to pick up that friendship again.
BTW, are these things you mentioned just issues you're thinking about, or did you & W discuss this when you were sitting outside?
Maybe it's beating a dead horse as the friend issue has been gone over with a fine toothed comb...
I do want to share though, that your W could see it as, and you could in some ways, be involved with this friend as an EA...
My W became very emotionally attached to a gay work friend. He was one of whom I would have considered an EA. Sending "ILY" messages, hanging out with him in their hotel rooms in less than modest clothing and having "girl talk"... things that transitioned her emotional involvement from me, to him... in the same way that her female BFFs (one specifically) were also, to some degree...
I feel pretty clear where I am going to have to land with our mutual friend. Luckily, I only see her once....maybe twice a month. We text, but trust me when I say it does not even closely approach EA territory at all. Still - I won't let anyone else dethrone my w in terms of importance.
So we have/had ANOTHER mutual friend in town this weekend that was visiting from the Northwest. This is one of those few (if not only) friends that we both remain "OK" with and communicate here and there. Friday night was w's night with s. Said she needed a little "girl time" with our friend. I told her I would take s - not a problem at all. She told me that she would only be gone an hour or two - but I told her to relax and take all the time she wants - I had s covered (I really wanted the time with him anyway!) - 180, done!. She was really grateful and S and I had a great time just hanging out. I met up with her and our friend for breakfast and coffee and to hand him back to her.
After breakfast w, s and I walked around an outdoor mall nearby and just goofed around for awhile. We had a fun - we both enjoy S and it is really clear that he is in a state of bliss when we both are together with him. As we were leaving I told her that I would be watching my alma mater and hers play this evening and she was welcome to come by. Ironically, if both of our teams would have won today they would have had to play each other (hers lost). I was looking forward to having "Crimson vs. Mrs. Crimson" appear somewhere other than court documents.
I ordered a few pizzas and w and son came by. Watched both games - I even made some green beer to be festive. We had a great time, just laughing having a few drinks and watching the games. We were trying to get s to root for our respective teams.....of course, dad is gonna win that battle!
W helped me straighten up, put PJs on S and then they both drove off. It was really a nice visit.
It's funny - we have been spending a lot of good time together - no stress, no tension....just fun. Still, though, she has not indicated at all that she is walking away from D....and I do NOT ask. I feel hopeful, but just don't know. I am not looking a gift horse in the mouth - I am happy to be where I am. Furthermore, I know this is an exercise in patience. I suppose every once and again my nerves get to me a bit. Still - staying the course.
Crismon
Hey Crimson, I was on the 202 yesterday, waved to you!
Don't know if you're anywhere near the 202 but it's the thought that counts.
Glad it was a good evening for you C. Also home something official can show up to slow, halt or stop the D. Good job keeping it all in check.
I love reading your posts. They're so inspirational. Gives me hope and I'm very happy for you.
Crimson-I have not posted much on others stitches but others have referred me to yours due to being similarity. I have been near divorce for sometime with our papers being nearly finalized but my W then indicated that she may want to work on things and has been more open and communicative of late. My posting is called
"W told me she is done & doesn't love me anymore-P2" . Please take a look from your world of things.
I can sympathize with your situation of working with your W meanwhile a D lingers in the background. Keep up the good work and I will be following your thread for sure.
Snowman - I posted to your thread.
LA - I work off of the 202 and can see it clearly from my office right next to Tempe Town Lake. I'll just assume the wave is waiting for me when I get to work tomorrow.
Taking some "me" time today in a relatively rainy city. Trying to exercise some patience and stay out of my head today. Have to write my w another big honkin' check today. Always hard to do. Not hard to help her, but hard to accept the fact that it is being mandated by the court. Makes me feel like I'm an assumed "dead beat" - and I just don't like that feeling.
I know I am going off on a tangent here, but I'm actually more venting than anything else. Posting helps me get things off of my chest. That said......
W's father is so pro-marriage, pro "family values" I struggle with the notion that he had been so strong in her ear to just be done with me. She said during our long talk the other day that he didn't think I did (or had done, or am doing) enough to support w during this time. Especially in the beginning when she was living on her own and weighing under 100 pounds (she confessed that she was close to being hospitalized). When she left, she took more than half of our total savings - walking away with thousands of dollars. She said she needed the money to "help get started". I did not fight her on it at all. She never told me how much or even IF she gave money to her L. As far as I knew she had plenty of money to get started and be OK. Come to find out she gave nearly ALL of it to her L and had very little to get started, find a place to live, housing items and so on. She never asked me for anything more. Hell, she never really talked to me about money, her living situation, her health, nothing. Even when I bought her a bed (remember that?) she said "I'm not asking you for the help but if you are offering I will take it". I did it because I was worried about her and her health.
How does her father get the picture that I was withholding help from her? That I was leaving her to suffer and die? I gave her all I could while I was struggling to keep in "survival mode" myself. I was a total mess and barely able to take good care of myself and my son. How was I supposed to care for a WAW, too?
Her father feeling that way towards me makes me feel as if I literally abandoned her. Like I kicked her and my son penniless out of the house to fend for themselves. I just don't think that was the case. If you remember. Early on everyone said the right thing to do was to keep my distance and let her be. That's what I did and I stand by it. I fully own my part I what caused the breakdown in our marriage, but I won't own leaving her to die. Not a day passed when I didn't care about her and how she was doing.
I realize that this is about me and my FIL and not me and my W. She has been supportive and understanding during this process and told me to to take on any bad feelings about myself relating to her dad's view of me.
Again, I am just venting and I know this is something that someday I will have to just work through.
Crimson
Crimson FIL will always protect his daughter.W may have said things that may have sounded as if you abandoned them. Even if not true. If things work out you will hopefully forgive him and move on. Regarding money, in my case I still pay practically everything even though my W earns much more. The money thing hurts but what can you do.
Rick,
Thanks for your post on my thread. It helps to hear from someone in a similar boat.
As for the FIL thing I bet my FIL is probably saying the same thing even though I gave my W half the money (thousands) to do what she pleases with it of the which she blew a lot of clothes and crap. Like Rick said all FIL will protect their daughters and I would assume your own F would side with you. That's just what family does.
Crimson you know the truth that you did not leave her abandon and desperate and it was her choice to leave. Don't let this get down on you. It unfortunately is part of the deal when letting someone leave. The leaving of my W sucked too and I worried about but it was her choice and she had plenty of money to do what she needed. If your W felt that giving all her money to a L was most important then that's her decision and part of the consequences.
Take care and keep focused on the positive
.
So w came by last night to drop off s, didn't stay long because she had work to do coming off of spring break. Handed a check over to her and she said "what's this for?".....I said I would get her the other half before the month is out. It's always an odd transaction - handing those checks over - and I can tell that she feels a little awkward or uncomfortable receiving them.
So something has been rushing through my mind since we had that long talk on her patio last week. Before I go into this, let me clearly state that it isn't a point of anger - or something I even plan on bringing up with w at all. I am just trying to figure out "why" this is and if anyone else has experienced it.
So as I posted previously, it is very clear that w and I were BOTH struggling to survive after bomb was dropped - and especially after she moved out. She wasn't eating, wasn't sleeping, was falling into depression and so was I.
After some of our MC sessions I really walked away with the feeling that she really, REALLY thought I was hostile towards her during that period and just LOOKING for ways to be hurtful towards her - "ruin her life" as she said.
I have told her a few times that I was running a full spectrum of emotions - and yes, that DID include anger from time to time (especially when it had to do with custody matters) but overpowering sadness and depression were by FAR the dominant emotions for me. I was really doing my best to get my feet on the floor in the morning and make it to my office.....and take care of my son when I had him. I wasn't "plotting against" my w at all. I think she really believes that I was actively looking for ways to make her life uncomfortable - looking for ways to hurt her.....and I think she STILL believes this about that period in time.
What she doesn't know - or can't see at the moment is the fact that I was a complete train wreck emotionally and was just trying to take care of myself and my son and stop hurting. I did not have the slightest bit of malicious intent towards her at all - I wasn't LOOKING to hurt her.
I can't help but wonder why she believes that? Is it that it is easier to leave someone that you think is trying to hurt you than it is to leave someone who is crushed and hurting that you are gone? Her peception of my thoughts and actions at that time are not reflective of what was actually going on (it's all well documented in older threads).
Is this something I should just let go of? I am thinking that it is. I think "old" me would have really fought to get her to see that I wasn't trying to destroy her - because I wasn't. Now I am beginning to see that I may never change that perception in her head/heart and it may not be worth addressing at all.
I guess when it comes down to it, it bothers me that she really believes that I was "out to get her" in some manner or another and looking to make her suffer.
Crimson
If it's in C, then I would suggest addressing it right then and there. Have the C serve as the moderator so that it doesn't sound like either of you are attacking the other.
Be honest and stick to how you felt.
I agree with Bond. If this is an issue for both of you, then it needs to be addressed in the MC session. Trying to do it outside of C could lead to a serious bump in the road. You don't want either of you having resentments tucked away while trying to R.
Now, if this is your problem more than hers, maybe you need to think about what 25yrs says. Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?
Truthfully, I know it is more my problems than hers. I don't even really think it is a problem for her at all. That said, it would probably be in my best interests to let it go. Somehow I have to accept the fact that she thought I was out to "get" her in this process - even if that wasn't the case.
Not sure if this will come up in MC or not - we don't have another appointment on the calendar, but should probably get one soon.
In the meantime, I have been enjoying the time that we have been spending together - and I have told her as much. It is like getting to know her all over again. I find myself being as nervous around her at times as I was when we first met. Still, there has been no indication that she has withdrawn the petition for D. It's so difficult for me to balance that with the fact that she wants to take another crack at IVF.
I don't want to say to her "we need to figure out what we are doing before we going any further down that road" because I don't want to put pressure on her. At the same time, I know we are quickly coming to a point where it will HAVE to be addressed. I can't be a part-time father to TWO children. And I don't think she would want that for herself, either.
Crimson
Has she mentioned anything about IVF recently? Has she stated that she doesn't mind being a single parent to TWO children?
I guess I don't understand her reasoning for wanting to pursue that more if she's still not sure if the two of you are going to stay together. I agree with you... that is a very hard thing to balance.
That very paradox has me confused, jks. Upon leaving our consultation with the Dr. she was instructed to contact his office "when her next cycle begins". Well, I know that is not too, too far off.
Somewhere between now and then the conversation about what her plans are with the D needs to occur. I can't bring it up right now because it would be viewed as "pressuring". I remain hopeful that she will conclude that she needs to withdraw the petition - but who knows. My gut tells me that she will, but to date nothing to indicate that will happen has been said or done.
That said, there is no way I can move forward with IVF and D at the same time. I think she knows that.
Crimson
She also might be not thinking altogether clearly.
Crimson, this is a time when you need to think and express about what your boundaries of living are. If you aren't comfortable moving forward with IVF in this context, hold onto your nuts and speak up.
If you are not OK with doing IVF while divorce is imminent or, as gabby said, while divorce is still fresh in your rear view mirror, it is fine to talk about YOUR RESERVATION in MC or to W. Note that this is very different than telling her she needs to do something.
You do NOT say, W, you need to decide what you want. If you want IVF, you need to withdraw this D petition.
You DO say, W, It has been [adjective, exciting, hopeful, etc.] for me to go to these IVF visits with you, and it is something that I am excited about. I want to be honest with you though that I'm not sure if this is the right timing for me. I wouldn't be comfortable doing IVF just right now when we are still figuring out where we stand with each other. How do you feel about this?
Some of the pressure comes when you make it all about HER and HER decision and HER needing to do something. Take the pressure off her by making it about YOU and your boundaries and your own choices. It also empowers you.
Crimson
2 quick notes. First with re to how you see your behavior when first apart vs how she sees it...
1) there are two+ ways to view your behavior, and most people's...I recall thinking you sounded too angry at times, so she probably picked up on THAT b/c it also validated her choice to leave. I thought she was legally entitled to half the furniture so it was horrid to me that she'd leave with the clothes on her back and yes it seemed punitive to me. Sorry but that is how it struck me then.
My real point is that I do NOT believe it is humanly possible to review and see your marital history the same...ever...
Two witnesses to car crashes don't often agree.
You are both heavily invested in how you view your marriage AND a lot rides on it -- but you see the world thru very different lenses...
for the most part you prefer HER LENSE b/c you get all negative (which is draining on spouses, btw)...so it's hard for you to see how the over views things.
It will help you both when you can better empathize as you go along, but as for the past...
Let go of the past. Agree on today and "from this day forward", not the past...
the only value the past has for you now is 1) loving memories that resurface
and 2) hard earned lessons for you now.
Second, the IVF...
gabby's got a point. I am a tad curious what her plan is but I don't sense a "plan"...
but
I do sense a woman who believes she has only ONE more shot at being a mother.
That's a tough position to be in. Tread carefully.
Be upbeat & positive about it, since you would love it
under the right, loving solid circumstances that you two CAN create together..
.
25 and all,
Thanks for the advice. Very true that there is limited value to agreeing to the past. Hell, even if you do - then what? "Loving memories and lessons learned" - yep, in this circumstance that is pretty much all the rearview mirror is good for.
Regarding the IVF process. At this juncture I don't think there is a lot that I can do or say....not yet, anyway. You are correct that I only want to do it in the context of a loving, caring relationship where we are 100% together and moving forward. But I can't flat out ask her if that is where her mind is right now.
Recently, I have felt like we are doing better. Spending time together, enjoying our s together. But the bottom line is she still has yet to hit "stop" on the divorce proceedings. We met up for dinner yesterday and I don't know if she had a rough day at work, or was just tired - but she was flat....very, flat. She got up and left with s (he was starting to get a tad squirmy) and didn't even really say good-bye. I was sitting at the table wondering WTF just happened. Immediately, I was fighting the urge to get inside my head.....maybe she is done trying......she wants the D....etc. -- I put the brakes on that line of thought as quickly as I could. Still not GREAT at doing that, but I am learning not to get into picking apart her every action in search of meaning. Nonetheless, it felt weird and I woke up this morning with low-level anxiety.
I want to have a deeper conversation about the whole IVF thing - and tell her that IF she wants to stay together and IF she wants to go for baby #2 she should settle back in together first - get back to loving one another and find stable ground.
My fear is that she would say "everything has to be YOUR way" and say I haven't changed at all. Worse yet, I fear that bringing it up would just drive her away and erase whatever positive momentum I may or may not have.
Things are coming to a head and we are going to have to make a definitive decision soon.
Crimson
I would probably leave the IVF thing alone now, you know how you feel in your heart and you can deal with it when the time comes.
I agree with this. If, when the time comes, you still are not comfortable with it then it's time to talk to her about it. But leave it alone for now.
She may come to her own realization that it's not the right thing right now. You never know.
Yeah - I think I will most likely walk away from the issue for the moment. There is really nothing good that can come from bringing it up right now. All I know is that the Dr. suggested that we start early April. Divorce will be final first week in May.....ergo, something has gotta give soon.
I can't help but be slighly optimistic since all of our interactions have been so...well...."good"....for quite some time now. But as I mentioned before, the petition is still out there and she has said nothing about pulling it back just yet....nor has she indicated that is on her mind.
Last night was just one of those nights where I think I just got too far into my head and I am still in there a bit. Need to get a grip.
Crimson
So got an e-mail from my L. Form attached for me to complete so my wages can have spousal and child support withdrawn automatically. What the hell?
I can't keep doing this. It is too much of a mind f*ck to have positve, forward-looking interactions with W and then still have this awful process grinding in the backgroud. I am having a hard time dealing with the emotional whiplash that it is creating.
I do not want to submit this form. What is going on?!
C, in regards to your W interpreting your actions as retaliatory, it's probably coming from some of her own filters, but also probably something you really DID do. She didn't walk out because you were pleasant to live with, and that was before the bomb.
Even if you disagree with her interpretations of your actions, I think it's important for you to understand what actions made her feel that way.
Also, I think women are usually really good at remembering what was said or done, probably more so than men, just because women are more relationally-based. My H will continually deny having said the ugly things he's said, and I only ever made any headway with him because he asked to be video-taped during one of our discussions. The next time I referenced something he said and he adamantly denied it, I was able to rewind the tape and play it for him. When he realized he actually had said it, it was almost like he was watching someone else on the tape. There was absolutely no memory of it at all. The really sad thing is that it had happened only 5 minutes before.
Anyway, point is, maybe it's a combination of men's ability to compartmentalize, their fight mode, being flooding with too many words, having emotional overload --- I don't know. I'm just suggesting that it is VERY possible that you did say the things she said you did and you just don't remember it. One of the most hurtful things in my M is my H's lack of ownership for the pain he causes me. It's bad enough that he does it in the first place, but even more painful knowing he does it so casually/automatically, he doesn't even remember it. I'm just suggesting you give it some consideration and give her some benefit of the doubt.
Second point, regarding the IVF. Either you need to be completely willing/prepared to be a divorced, part-time dad potentially forever with all that it entails, and go blindly down that road of how wonderful it will be to have another child, or these discussions about IVF need to come to a screeching halt. IVF is way too emotional of a scenario to hang it out there and then pull it back in because the D is still looming. It's cruel and unusual. Talking about what to do with the frozen embryos is one thing, the doctor asking your W to let him know immediately about your W's next cycle is way off the deep-end.
I'm afraid that you're going to set yourself up for a major fall simply because you're not being honest and open about how you feel. When the doc asked for her next cycle, that would have been a very good time to speak up. Right now, as much as the D is your focus, you've just made the IVF her focus. If you let that dangle out there and pull the rug out at the last minute, her emotional devastation will turn from the lack of the IVF to anger and insisting on the D. At least that's how I would respond (I've done the IVF thing.)
There is absolutely nothing wrong with telling her the thoughts that you've expressed here. And you need to do it soon. If she's not willing to hear it, better to know now than later.
So this was on the 18th...
So w came by last night to drop off s, didn't stay long because she had work to do coming off of spring break. Handed a check over to her and she said "what's this for?".....I said I would get her the other half before the month is out. It's always an odd transaction - handing those checks over - and I can tell that she feels a little awkward or uncomfortable receiving them.
And today you received something from your L asking for wage garnishment. Think the two could be related? I say get on the phone and ask your L if this is standard procedure (like why are you getting this just now) of if this is a specific request from your W's L. Wages don't have to be garnished; it's a burden on the state. If she feels uncomfortable having you hand her a check, and she's looking for an alternative, that's not good.
That said, there is no way I can move forward with IVF and D at the same time. I think she knows that.
In light of my previous post, that is a very dangerous assumption.
I can't help but be slightly optimistic since all of our interactions have been so...well...."good"....for quite some time now. But as I mentioned before, the petition is still out there and she has said nothing about pulling it back just yet....nor has she indicated that is on her mind.
I don't like to play devil's advocate, but I'm analytical by nature so I can't help it.
First, your interactions being "good" is fantastic, regardless of how things turn out. Your S needs to have parents that are amiable for his own well-being, whether they're M'd or D'd, so nothing you're doing will be lost.
Second, unfortunately it is possible that this is as good as it's going to get. It is possible that your W is just trying to get along with you, be friends, but really isn't looking for anything more. Doesn't mean she won't
ever but maybe not for some time (post-divorce.) You can't be walking on eggshells all the time, not speaking your mind, juggling two visions for a future, and still call it "good." I'm sure you've enjoyed it and it has been great spending time "as a family." But that illusion is just that -- an illusion. Your W is living elsewhere, filing for D, collecting CS and maintenance, with split custody of your son. THAT is reality, at least for now.
Neither one of you are being directly honest with the other, and you can't build a "good" relationship like that.
My money still stands, but I keep getting vibes that I don't like. I just think they need to be addressed.
So got an e-mail from my L. Form attached for me to complete so my wages can have spousal and child support withdrawn automatically. What the hell?
I can't keep doing this. It is too much of a mind f*ck to have positve, forward-looking interactions with W and then still have this awful process grinding in the backgroud. I am having a hard time dealing with the emotional whiplash that it is creating.
I do not want to submit this form. What is going on?!
First of all, it's unlikely you could ignore the form.
Second, as I told you in the past, you are taking a lot of the divorce proceeds way to personal. You are seeing them as attacks on you. THEY ARE NOT.
A lot of it is procedure, forms, etc. the only way they take away from the positive interactions is if you let them. I mean would you rather have venom and these paperwork or positive interactions and paperwork..
Somehow, some way you need to separate the divorce proceedings from the state of your M.
I know it seems to you that if your W was "all in" she could just stop the divorce proceeding and I know that really really bothers you that she hasn't. She isn't there yet.
Also, you don't really know the reason why she hasn't either.
But know that if you are W decides to withdraw the divorce petition it doesn't mean things are suddenly fixed anymore than keeping the petition active means there is no hope.
So this was on the 18th...
So w came by last night to drop off s, didn't stay long because she had work to do coming off of spring break. Handed a check over to her and she said "what's this for?".....I said I would get her the other half before the month is out. It's always an odd transaction - handing those checks over - and I can tell that she feels a little awkward or uncomfortable receiving them.
And today you received something from your L asking for wage garnishment. Think the two could be related? I say get on the phone and ask your L if this is standard procedure (like why are you getting this just now) of if this is a specific request from your W's L. Wages don't have to be garnished; it's a burden on the state. If she feels uncomfortable having you hand her a check, and she's looking for an alternative, that's not good.
How is that not good? If she's uncomfortable with, especially considering where they are, I think she want an easier way to get the $$. Maybe she doesn't want to remind crimson every time who knows.
Also, I don't think this is classic wage garnishment. Many states have a centralized system of automated withdraws that probably makes things easier for everyone involved. this isn't a court order or anything, or at least it doesn't sound like it.
Centralized system of automated withdrawals = garnishment. Maybe different state = different term, though there's no value in arguing terminology. I believe it is a court order or there would be no reason to involve L's.
I think it's not good because someone who is even considering dropping the D doesn't pursue an action that will take a month to implement when the D itself is only a little over a month away.
Centralized system of automated withdrawals = garnishment. Maybe different state = different term, though there's no value in arguing terminology. I believe it is a court order or there would be no reason to involve L's.
I think it's not good because someone who is even considering dropping the D doesn't pursue an action that will take a month to implement when the D itself is only a little over a month away.
nope. nope nope. A centralized system does not equal garnishment. It just doesn't. Specific language does has a specific terminology. I am L here, so I think I have some better information. C said NOTHING about a court order.
You simply are assuming way too much here.
Well, again, I find no value it arguing terminology, but if you need to, I'll let you run with it. On the other points, my opinion still stands.
Well, again, I find no value it arguing terminology, but if you need to, I'll let you run with it. On the other points, my opinion still stands.
Wow. :|
So far GM, most of our R talks have been recapping what has happened and the impact it has had on our respective lives. Granted, they are not hostile convos at all - but they do open the eyes a bit. In doing so, yes, I think I do do a lot of validating. I think I am still in that phase/mode where I want her to feel comfortable with me. We are almost there. I am fearful of injecting an issue with any real gravity to it until she feels safe with her emotions with me.
Crimson
I am fearful of injecting an issue with any real gravity to it until she feels safe with her emotions with me.
Leading her down this path with the IVF when you don't want to do it with a divorce pending, then backing out of it at the last minute is NOT going to make her feel safe with her emotions with you. I'm fearful you're going to put all this work into getting the squirrel to eat from your hand, then try to grab it by the throat and run it away forever.
So far GM, most of our R talks have been recapping what has happened and the impact it has had on our respective lives. Granted, they are not hostile convos at all - but they do open the eyes a bit. In doing so, yes, I think I do do a lot of validating. I think I am still in that phase/mode where I want her to feel comfortable with me. We are almost there. I am fearful of injecting an issue with any real gravity to it until she feels safe with her emotions with me.
Crimson
I get that. Before I read the part about the garnishment but I had read about the weird transaction wherein you surprised her w/a CS check,
I was actually going to
suggest you get it automatically deducted to avoid these exact times. It's awkward and it's a reminder of the past/problems and how to go forward. As for what she intends in pursuing both...IDK/
But it's easy to put the brakes on a divorce at the last minute. I'd bet her L told her just that, while he bills by the hour. (No Crim, you don't get to remind her of that).
Ironically, I saw this as a good thing, mostly. It keeps the issues more separate.
Just my take on it.
But GM is right. Even though you are understandably reluctant to throw a wrench into it, you do have to communicate more. You have to resolve conflicts instead of ignoring them or letting them fester.
How about you both Learn new problem solving skills as a couple? That would do a lot to make you both feel safe, wouldn't it? Ask the mc.& why not tell her how YOU FELT when you got the notice?
Or just say "it's confusing/conflicting" for you,
w/IVF and possible fatherhood joys again, on one hand,
AND OR being single forever...
and then LISTEN for her response...and keep listening.
Hi Crimson,
Not sure if the following will help you at all, but I have been reading a book on mlc that clarified a lot of what my H is doing.
The argument is that our spouses are going through a process similar to 'mourning' or 'grieving' (their loss of identity, sense of immortality, sense of meaning in life).
This grieving often involves a stage in which they say to themselves "if only".
In your case, you might see your W as saying: 'If only I had had another child". "Then perhaps I wouldn't feel so bad".
It's a way of seeking relief from the inner sense of despair. A way of trying to point the way forward.
It's a fantasy (at this stage, because D is still on the agenda for her) but it reveals a lot about the inner needs of the person who is expressing it.
The writer of the book says that the fantasies mlc-ers typically engage in (men often say they would like to be farmers, helpers, nurserymen or writers) are key to the modification that is required post-crisis. The meaning of the fantasy needs to be explored by the person -why do I want this and what is lacking in my inner life/relationship.
The takeaway message, I suppose is, again, that such things need to be talked about. The meaning of this desire for IVF by your wife might well be something that should be explored in counselling.
Again, apologies if I come across as an amateur analyst here. Not trying for that, just thought it might help you deal with the apparent incongruence of her actions.
Well 25, CV and NLW,
I went long boarding in the park tonight to try to pull myself out of the funk I suddenly find myself in. Helped a bit, but I think a date with the 3 basses upstairs is in order, too.
If I am being honest (25), the indignation of having my wages garnished is adding to the problem. I don't like the court telling me to take care of my family. I have never NOT done that. I have consistently given her checks since we reached an agreement without hesitating. I guess I am also stressing out because it won't be too long before my finances are wrecked from all of this and I have tried so hard my whole life to be cautious and responsible with money and then something like this kicks in. I know that is my ego talking, my sense of self-pride - and that is a luxury I probably can't afford right now.
Tonight my wife texted me that she is looking to buy a jogging stroller. I am happy she is getting out and taking care of herself - but part of me was thinking - great, I'm looking to stay solvent. Maybe it won't be as bad as I think, but I am having a hard time with it. A very hard time.
Regarding IVF, I know I am going to have to sack up and say something sooner or later. I just don't want to screw things up somehow and I know now is not the time to talk about it.
I know I have made great progress, but today I think I just hit a wall. Tomorrow will be better, but today my emotions just caved in on me. I still feel trapped in this terrible process....I still feel like I will never have my son back in my life full time again. I still miss my wife terribly, and I am still hurting inside a bit. It's been going on awhile so I suppose you can only keep your chin up for son long before you just have to put it down for a day. Today was that day I guess.
Thanks everyone for your support, guidance and advice. It has really meant a lot to me over these several months. Wouldn't have made it this far without you. And I mean that.
Crimson
I am feeling your pain in your last post. I am so sorry for what you're going through today. It really is the best to be able to come here and blow off some steam, isn't it?
I have to say that no matter what anyone here says, YOU know what is best for you and your situation. If you're not having a good feeling about something, I would not discredit that.
I know all of this stuff messes with your head and is emotionally draining at times and it really is ok and normal to have these emotional lows. This is where you build strength. I hope and pray for you that your situation will take a turn for the better soon.
Hang in there...
what he said...
hang in there Crimson
you are a good man....don't lose those hard earned points or backslide,
But sure, be true to yourself-
We are all rooting for you!
Seems like with the progression to each new phase of this ordeal I find myself saying "I didn't think that this was going to be that hard". Well, here I am in this odd space between divorce and reconciliation and I am saying it again - I didn't think that this was going to be this hard. Today the weight of "not knowing" what is going to happen almost made me want to just give up. At least that way I would know that I am controlling something and not just a passenger (I know this is NOT a healthy way of thinking).
I have my son this weekend and we have been just hanging out having a good time together. W called yesterday to talk to him and asked if we would be at church this morning. I said yes - and she said she would be there, too. We arrived and w, sil and I all sat together. We had a good time, good message and shared a few good laughs. Of course, we both fawned over our son.
After church we all went to breakfast. Again, a good time with laughs and conversation. It feels like family again - everyone just hanging out and our son enjoying the togetherness of it all. I hated to see it end.
As we walked to our cars (w parked next to me) I told w that s and I would be making dinner and she was more that welcome to stop by. She said she would "play it by ear" and had to meet one of her girlfriends for coffee later. Later she texted me and said she had work to do tonight that she needed done for the morning and would probably would't come by for dinner. I don't know if that was true or not, but I felt rejected and embarrassed that I asked.
Then I started wondering if only wants to meet at church so she can see our son - not to try to spend a bit of time together without it being "too much". Again, not a healthy thing to think - and I tried to keep my head out of that line of thought.
I don't know if I am falling apart, growing weary, fighting off a backslide or all three. But the weight of the pending divorce, my looming financial implosion and not knowing what my w really wants to do is crushing down on me. I miss my family so much it tears at my heart. It almost makes me cry when my s says "where'd mommy go?" or "mmoooommmyyy where are you?".
I know she misses him, but I also know that she could at any time say "let's try to pull back together and be a family". I honestly don't know what she wants to do at all - and I know better than to ask.
Our S turns 2 next week. Not how I envisioned it, but I will make the most of it. These last few days my heart has been breaking. For him, for me....for the future, for the unknown. My MIL will be here for it. She has been texting me recently - so that is not all bad. Seems friendly.
I guess I am just in need of encouragement to stay on path and not give up. It was a hard week and I really felt/feel like throwing my hands up. Maybe it't not that I am not making progress....but that I am not making as much as I would like to. If I just got the slightest indication from my w to hang in there and keep trying (pipe dream) I would feel better. And who knows, maybe if my pursuit of the big sign I have gotten the little sign that says just that and I overlooked it.
I am not the uber-religious guy at all, but I DO believe in God and find that that belief is comforting and stabilizing in many ways. I don't view it at magic or mysticism at all - just believing. That said, uncharacteristically I bought to bundles of dry sage to burn in the house. It is supposed to cleanse and spiritually heal you, your home, or other things. Looking back on all the negativeness that was present in this house when we were both living in separate rooms, and when I was hurting my wife for God only knows how long and didn't know it - I feel that it is necessary to to this. If it is nothing more than symbolic, so be it. But I want to get rid of the bad feelings and memories in this house for me and for my w.
S is waking from nap. Time to put on the dad-hat. Thanks for reading and responding. Sometimes it just helps to get things out of me.
Crimson
Crimson, when you say give up, what does that mean? Would you be acting any different ? Because you are not playing a game just to get your wife back. You made changes for the better for you, right? So giving up would consist of what? I
I am telling you, you would feel a little relief discussing your feelings with your wife. Communicate with her. Stop letting the fear paralyze you. You can't reconcile like this I'll tell you that much.
And you have to stop taking every decision she makes not to be with you personally. The woman probably really did have things to do and a coffee date with her friend. Why are you making it about you again? I'm not saying this to be snarky, but your wife's life and feelings do not soley revolve around you. You have to remember that for your own good.
what she said^^^fwiw, I would NOT invite her to anything for awhile. Let HER do all of that.
your course of action remains the same, other than dating OWs I guess. What would "giving up" look like, otherwise?
is it an internal thing? The desire to feel in control? That's intriguing b/c you once said you were "needlessly controlling" (or controlling past the point of it being rational) in the past. So it was an issue for you.
FWIW-my h is getting deployed this summer. PROBABLY going to Kuwait but maybe to Afghanistan. We don't know yet.
The departure date has changed twice, but it is PROBABLY going to be right around our wedding anniversary this summer.
We don't know how long he'll be gone! At least several months, "Subject to change
without notice."
Our youngest d is in high school so he'll probably miss a year of that. If Iran does something crazy over there, who knows how long he'll be gone? (I can't even entertain concepts about danger either. But the hospital he'll likely be in, is the one that got bombed before. So i don't go there).
All I know for sure is, His pay will be cut in half so our finances will be shot.
Crimson, I say all this b/c when we were both active duty, we learned to embrace the ambiguity of life,
or at least to accept it.
I just cannot obsess about things I have no control over. Same for you.
The single great thing about really truly "getting" that^^ concept, is that it taught me to live in the present. It's freeing. You only have today's plate of work, you don't borrow from tomorrow's or next month's, etc.
Enjoying the "now" is life enhancing and it's contagious. And what a great thing to teach your beautiful son! (and to let your wife see)...
See if the book "The Power of Now" helps you at all. I found the audio version weirdly soothing and somehow more clear. But it would help you & I recommend you get it.
Be here now.
(((( ))))
GM & 25,
I guess by "giving up" I meant accepting the fact that the D is going to happen and my wife is never coming back. The changes I have made and continue to make are for good - those I can't give back or give up. Sometimes hope is a hard flame to keep lit. I've been feeling that lately. I know I have come a long way, but it feels as if I have somehow stalled out. Am I seeing this incorrectly?
I guess part of it is also the more time I spend with my w here and there the more I am aware of the loneliness without her. It's just something in my head I suppose, and something everyone in this position feels. It's just difficult to manage.
I don't think I am overtly seeking control - I think I am just having a hard time accepting the ambiguity of this situation like you said. One day at a time. That is the best way to get through this. But it seems like each day I am looking for some kind of answer that just isn't coming. I keep thinking about the prospect of losing my family and I fall into a deep sadness. For all I know the exact opposite could happen - I really don't know. And that, said the bard, is the rub.
I DO have a hard time getting to a point where I am accepting "now" and living in the moment. But believe it or not this ordeal has taught me to get a little better at it. It's an elusive 180 that I really need to tackle.
I am also teetering on the edge of feeling like a total failure if/when my finances fall apart. In my life I have not so much as bounced a check - the prospect of losing my house and ruining my credit is tough to take. As you recall from many threads ago, I struggle with the notion of failure a lot.
I know she had legit reasons not to hang out today and I shouldn't take it personally. Furthermore, you are right - I shouldn't really ask her to do anything else. I got us tickets for one of her favorite comedians next month - that'll be it until she asks to do something else. My problem is that I feel like if I don't at least plan or ask her to do things I will just let her slip away. Being around her makes me feel good. I am probably trying to sustain that feeling somehow. The irony is that it would seem as though I have forgotten that pulling away helped bring her back. Do I pull away again? What is too much?
GM, you're are right. I tend to forget that my w's life and feelings do not revolve around me. I need to get over that.
Thanks for reading, guys. I appreciate it.
Crimson
BTW, 25 - I pray that your H stays safe when he is deployed.
Hi Crimson. I noticed that you mention your finances alot? Your credit? Is money and possessions that important to you? Are you more concerned about losing those or your family? Just curious.
Crimson,
Have to say that I look at your sitch with hope and dread, and see a lot of similarities to my own. I expect my W will (and needs) to move out on her own for a bit. I hope I have a chance in many ways to connect as you have started to again toward building a new R, I also somewhat dread the difficulty of the path you (and perhaps I) will be on.
I don't think I have any wise, experienced advice for you (as I feel I am at an earlier point in the process that you have already passed). Stay true to yourself, look to GAL and do what makes you happy. Be the best father you can be for your child, try to take in all the info and decide to make a choice for yourself...maybe it will be to continue to softly engage your W and try to build on that, maybe it will be to pull back and see what that means and what happens...but make your own choices in life for you and do it in a way that YOU are fine with whatever happens because YOU made the choice.
I know it is not particularly helpful, but I always like the quote "different is not always better...but better is always different". What can you do for yourself (and your child) that is different, and maybe better?
Hey Rick - Good question. I have said before that I would rather lose everything I own with my wife and son with me than prosper without them. One of the lessons I have learned in all of this is that money and "stuff" are not the most important things/pursuits in life. My fear centers around failure mostly, the inability to provide well for myself and my son. The inability to plan for the future financially - college, retirement, and so on. That does not supersede my family, it just lingers as an ongoing anxiety for me in the background.
I sat in church with w and sil today and thought that at times God can be humbling. I am starting to feel that in many ways, from how I communicate to what I value, I am being humbled. Brought back down to Earth. Centered. Broken and given an opportunity to rebuild. If nothing else, this has been humbling and has caused me to take a secondary look at priorities.
Family. It's about family. It's not about having all the answers to the future of how to PROVIDE for that family...just having a family and developing an environment where love and support are the pillars of your home/life. That was a humbling discovery for me. That is why I regret being so afraid to have a second child when that is all I want right now.
Yes, we get broken down in this experience. But I am doing my best to make sure that it is for a PURPOSE and not for me to wallow (which I do at times). Not sure if the breaking down portion of this is over for me yet - maybe that is what the whole financial piece is about. Regardless, I can feel part of the rebuild happening.
Hope you all are DB'ing as best you can tonight.
Take care.
Crimson
C, hang tough. No one said it would be easy, but it will be worth it.
Just curious, are you really that opposed to having a heart-to-heart with your W about these things you express here? Did you cover any of that in MC? I'm just afraid that she's doing just as much second-guessing as you are, but neither of you are really getting deep with the other. I know there have been opposing mis-queues in the past, it just seems like it would be good to head off any current ones sooner than later. If you broach the topic and she tells you she absolutely is going to get on with life without you, at least then you'll know. Anything better will just be icing on the cake, and still you'll at least get to know.
CV -
I'm not that opposed to it - just a bit scared to. Plus, I have really been trying to NOT be the one to initiate R talk. She has typically been the one to lead that charge lately and I feel as though if I do she will feel pressured. And if I know one thing, that is the last thing I need to present her with right now. And frankly, I don't think she really knows what she is doing or what she wants 100% right now. Not sure if pushing the issue would help. I hate it, but it seems as though I will have to content myself to wait.
Smudged the whole house last night. Smells like the Grateful Dead and a league of Rastafarians had one hell of a party in here.
Crimson
I think there's a difference between "pushing the issue" and talking from your heart. I also feel like if she doesn't know what she wants, there's nothing wrong with lighting a candle to light her way.
ps. Not sure what "smudged" means, but based upon your description, I don't think I want to know.
I know this falls somewhat on deaf ears, but here goes.
1. Regarding the future. You spend a lot of time wondering what if the D does or doesn't through and you lament the lack of certainty. Guess what? That's life. Nothing is certain, no one knows the future even in your R with your W was the best it could be - that doesn't guarantee that everything else in your life would be grand.
Worrying about the future, a future you can't control, does do is is rob you of the present.
Furthermore what does a D mean to you? Does it mean that your feelings stop at that point, a relationship with your wife is never, ever going to happen. Your child will grow up unloved?
2. Focusing on your child wanting his mommy. I think you are attaching a heartbreaking meaning to it. Guess what? 2-year-olds want their moms sometimes. Does that mean that you W is going to be attached at her hip until he's doesn't want here. Is your W going to be at his beck and call? No. I assume your W has to work sometimes. Even if your were fully R, there'd be times when he wanted his mommy and she wouldn't be around.
I think a lot of times LBS read their emotions, fears, etc into their kids (especially the younger ones) When my W and I lived apart, I tried to keep things as normal as possible and our kids had ZERO problems with the situation. (in fact, it helped our youngest son 2YO, not to be such a momma's boy.)
I didn't try to import my own fears, emotions, etc onto my kids at all. Neither did my wife.
I know this falls somewhat on deaf ears, but here goes.
1. Regarding the future. You spend a lot of time wondering what if the D does or doesn't through and you lament the lack of certainty. Guess what? That's life. Nothing is certain, no one knows the future even in your R with your W was the best it could be - that doesn't guarantee that everything else in your life would be grand.
Worrying about the future, a future you can't control, does do is is rob you of the present.
Furthermore what does a D mean to you? Does it mean that your feelings stop at that point, a relationship with your wife is never, ever going to happen. Your child will grow up unloved?
2. Focusing on your child wanting his mommy. I think you are attaching a heartbreaking meaning to it. Guess what? 2-year-olds want their moms sometimes. Does that mean that you W is going to be attached at her hip until he's doesn't want here. Is your W going to be at his beck and call? No. I assume your W has to work sometimes. Even if your were fully R, there'd be times when he wanted his mommy and she wouldn't be around.
I think a lot of times LBS read their emotions, fears, etc into their kids (especially the younger ones) When my W and I lived apart, I tried to keep things as normal as possible and our kids had ZERO problems with the situation. (in fact, it helped our youngest son 2YO, not to be such a momma's boy.)
I didn't try to import my own fears, emotions, etc onto my kids at all. Neither did my wife.
Harrier -
Not falling on deaf ears at all. I value your input and frankness. Hell, I think you were one of the first people to respond to my first thread - that seems like a million years ago.
So if I think about it practically, the D really is nothing more than a point in time. The significance, however, from a psychological point of view, is tough to deal with. Most of that is ego driven...ande fear driven. If you are a person that stuggles with rejection - and I am - D is right around the pinnacle of rejection.
Regarding S - I don't think I am projecting much onto him. When he asks for his mom a lot it is just one of those things that serves as a reminder that she is not around and it just thrusts our situation into the forefront of my mind. He is adjusting to this lifestyle OK, a lot of that has to do with the fact that w and I are doing OK together right now.
Notwithstanding, I see your point and acknowledge that it is something that I need to be aware of. I could easily see myself falling into the trap of projecting my feelings onto my S.
Guess I should start a new thread....I am going to get locked soon.
Crimson