My wife has been having an affair for nearly a year. A couple months ago, she finally decided to leave him, but after a week changed her mind and now is certain she wants a divorce.
We have three children, 7, 9, and 10. Married for 11 years.
There is so much that is pertinent; I don't know where to start.
I've read most of DB and MR, so I'll start with the here-and-now (although some history is always necessary).
She is completely inside of her affair, so I don't really have much leverage. We are still very civil. In fact, I am afraid to employ the Last Resort Strategy since I have not been begging and crying and pursuing (not much) and my not pursuing her over the course of our marriage is a source of pain for her.
We are going to try birds nest custody (kids stay put, we take turns living with them for 2 weeks), but at the end of the school year we are talking about moving "back home" for more family support (and of course, that's where her OM lives). I don't know if I can get a job there, definitely not as high paying. I already don't make enough to support more than one household. She is a homemaker.
My thinking has been all over: I'll just wait it out and work on me and secure my place in the kids lives; I'll let her do what she wants to do; I've hurt her so much, if I love her why would I want her to be with me?; I'm just being a doormat, I need to show her strength and fight for my kids...etc.
So, one of our big "issues" has been my use of porn. I have always tried not to and been apologetic and even sought treatment as an addict. But I've always trivialized it to a point (since it never advanced to prostitutes or affairs, etc.). But it is time for that to change. That behavior is symptomatic of some parts of my personality that I need to change. Well, whether it is too little or too late for my marriage, I am done. I will do whatever I have to do to get better.
Now, I'm not justifying her affair (and she is trying not to as well), but that is her choice. Obviously it is not my choice to make for her.
My choices are:
I choose to be the best man I can be.
I choose to be committed to my wife.
I choose to be committed to my children.
But then uncertainty sets in:
Do I choose to encourage the process towards moving? I truly think being there will be good for the kids. But what if I can't get a job there?
Do I try a bold stand to keep the kids here? That will probably end in her hating me?
How long have you been trying DB techniques? Have you done any 180's?
I don't know exactly what to tell you.
I have also had a HUGE problem with porn, and it is tough to kick, especially with the internet being like the world's biggest free candy store for porn addicts. For me it has only started to subside in my mid 40s, and part of that is because I am so busy all the time. I can only say pray plenty and always forgive yourself and start over if you slip.
As far as LRT is concerned, I think that you should do that. First of all, if she is convinced that OM is all that, she doesn't want you to pursue her, and you trying to do so will only make her retreat further into his arms. You may have a chance to look good to her, but only if you look like someone who can enjoy his life independent of her - I think it is likely that the last thing she will be attracted to is someone who seems like he needs her.
The second reason you really should consider LRT is because of the chance that she won't come back to you no matter what you do. If that is the case (and I really, truly, hope it is not), then you will need to GAL and make yourself happy not to convince her, but to reclaim your own life and be ready to face the world on your own. So, basically, do the LRT as though it is for real - because it may be - and pray that it is not.
I think that doing the LRT may help you to feel better.
You don't have to feel like you're Dan Quixote; getting your own life back together will accomplish something. I'm keeping a good thought for you.
Let me add this for you..The more you GAL, the less you will be bored enough to go look at porn. One reason so many people do this is because they are bored or don't have enough to do. Get out of the house. Take the kids for a walk or too the park. Do activities with them at night. When they go to bed, DON'T log into your computer. Next thing you know, you don't miss it!
Brian
Welcome to the board
You are on moderation and the best way to get off is to post in small frequent amounts until you are release from the time delay.
I agree that you need to use LRT, at this point if you are providing for any needs while she is with the OM then she is cake eating, that must stop.
OM = NM (No marriage)
Be the BEST DAD you can be because no OM is going to take their place, and you need to make sure of that.
Believe none of what she says and 1/2 of what she does.
Make your changes for YOU not to win her back.
Have no EXPECTATIONS.
Keep using your TIME wisely
She has given you a GIFT.
The GIFT of TIME.
Keep posting.
Cadet, you're an experienced DBer. Can you point me (us?) at any resources on "cake eating"? I've struggled with whether I should be doing things around the house to make things easier on W, really worried that I'm giving her the best of both worlds.
My DB coach advised me differently. She feels that the things I do to make W's life better are constructive and that I'm making deposits to her "love bank".
In my case, there is only a long-distance EA, not a PA. I'm not sure if that makes a difference.
Is there a thread somewhere that I can read?
So, OM lives 1000 miles away, but she spent about 8 weeks there last summer and has seen him at least every month since then.
I read the books a week and a half ago, but feels like a long time
Some 180s I'm trying to implement are:
I used to make her coffee in the mornings.
I try to smile and even laugh when we are around ea other (even when she's been on the phone w/OM for the past hour).
I'm super working on my temper with kids. I've been going downhill with them for a few years, and really really need to get control.
I'm focusing on recovery. Have a c appt and starting back to a 12-step group. As I said, porn is symptomatic, and I'm also trying to pray, which is so hard. But that's the center of everything.
I am biting my tongue till it bleeds about OM.
Some on the horizon: I think I'll start playing soccer again. I think I should break out my cello and dust it off.
I will have to think about it for a while to see if I can come up with a thread for you to read but I can tell you this, I usually post on the mid life crisis board, and that with google and cake eating might get you the answer. I can say no more than that here.
Deposits to a love bank are fine, except that, are you deposting more than she is taking out?
Because if not you will be running a deficit, and the bank will run out.
Sometimes you need to close the bank and save what is in it for use at a different time.
At least that is what I know about love banks.
Great concept at the right time.
TIme to take care of you.
You made mistakes are you ready to choose differently?
Sounds to me you are making excuses for her and yourself.
You either want to be a better man or you don't
You either want to save your M or you don't
You decide because it is up to you don't let her decide for you who you are and who you will be.
So? What kind of man do you aspire to be?
What are your values? What does your M and your vows mean to you?
Figure that out first.
On the subject of time:
I have about 4 months before a big crossroads.
But right now I have to start making some decisions.
We have talked about divorce and divorce agreements, etc. My new decision is to allow her to initiate those talks if she wants, and to not be a party to the filing of the divorce (I'll discuss terms, but she will have to "serve me papers").
After a week of that discussion not going forward, this morning she says she has found an apartment nearby. We had agreed that at the end of the month I would move out for my first turn away, and then she would take her turn. I am reconsidering this, and would really appreciate advice here. I definitely won't move out (even for "my turn") before we have a clear, signed agreement. But should I up it to "I won't move out unless I am forced to, or unless I am convinced it is best for me and the kids"?
Thanks to everyone here. I don't feel as alone.
Let me ask you this. Once you move out for "your turn away" what is to stop her from changing the locks on you thereby forcing you to take her to court? You already stated you don't make enough to support one household how are you going to afford the house and an apartment on one income? W wants the D and you do not? She has OM in the picture. She is cake eating big time and you are a doormat. Not very attractive is it?
I would not move out if I were you. I would not even move "back home". If she wants to D you then IMHO she should get a job and move into her own apartment. What is it that you want? I think you need to set some boundaries with her and I agree with Cadet. OM=NM
A lot of people will recommend against leaving the home if you can avoid it.
I fought very hard against it myself, and I think it was not for the best. My wife trying to distance herself from me felt very bad. I only moved out of the house after she caught me snooping on her and gave me an ultimatum. I guess snooping was actually the big error there. Things were actually kind of improving. I wish I had DB then.
Well, I moved out and it was awful, but after a month, my wife started thinking about taking me back and working out our stuff. At that very same time, being unaware of that fact and miserable out of the house, I moved home without giving her a chance to veto me.
It's very painful for me to write this now because I know that at that moment, I doomed my family to so much pain.
Anyway, what I'm saying is that in some situations, I think getting out of the house can be a positive thing in healing the relationship.
Definitely get that agreement worked out first!
As far as moving out - don't.
As far as agreements, I bet you had one when you got married too, they were called marriage VOWS.
How is that agreement working out?
Listen to the advice you are being given it is good.
As far as agreements, I bet you had one when you got married too, they were called marriage VOWS.
How is that agreement working out?
So true!
I agree that you need to use LRT, at this point if you are providing for any needs while she is with the OM then she is cake eating, that must stop.
OM = NM (No marriage)
Sorry for the hijack...Cadet, I am going to post this on my own thread, and ask a question. Can you swing by?
This is the latest epiphany.
I married my wife "till death do us part." I made that commitment to my wife before God and our community, and I will honor it.
Yes, even if she divorces me and marries another man. Yes, even though I've dishonored those vows in the past.
In June, we will get to a crossroads. We have talked about moving "back home" for family support (no doubt OM living there is a factor). I really do think if D happens, then that will be best for the kids.
Second option, I could say here is my job, me and kids are staying here. I foresee this creating a very nasty reaction in her (not that that is a reason not to).
Third option, I could say, take the kids. I have some stuff to work on (in addition to making money). I will move there when I am ready to be the man my family needs. Whether you take me back at your husband at that time will be up to you. This could go a few ways. Either it starts us on the long road towards R while she waits to see me change. Or she could make OM a growing part of her life while I diminish.
As I said before, I will not let anything happen before we have a clear agreement. But that almost gives her the advantage of time; we approach a fork in the road with no plan.
Thank you to everyone on these boards. It is incredibly valuable to read stories similar to mine with accompanying advice and thoughts and intentions and to see how they progress and what happens.
There are two things about my sitch that I have not yet found specifically dealt with that I would love some specific thoughts about.
First, time is usually on the side of the DBer. I am a little anxious that it is not on my side, in that we are considering moving after this school year.
I have a very strong support system here in our new city. Community is very important to me and I always work to develop friendships at church, etc. W is introverted and for 3 years has only developed 2-3 close(ish) friendships in our new city. She travels a lot for her hobby that she is passionate about and sorta sustains itself. (I have encouraged/supported her in it for years). That's where OM came from, and most of her social connections. She keeps in contact every day with lots of those friends online/facebook, but she isn't close to anyone here.
Kids aren't really rooted here. They spend lots of time at their grandparents (both sides) and would really be excited to move back there, where they also have 4 cousins.
I have tried to encourage all of them to develop relationships locally, but honest assessment of where we stand is I have made a new life here and the rest of my family feels lonely here.
But because of D laws and residency, etc., this puts a fire under my spouse to get this thing done. I am so worried that four months from now I will be divorced and completely lost (if we move) or abandoned (if I don't). I trust that DB works, but what if I cannot wait it out? I am ready to change and let W see over time, but what if I don't have time?
Second thing I seek special thoughts on is publicity. I have always aired my dirty laundry about porn somewhat. I wish for W sake I would have been more discreet. But I always thought I was ready to change, so being open about it and getting people involved was always intended to be part of the solution.
But that's not really the publicity I worry about (though it shows that one of my 180s should be respecting boundaries).
Back when W decided to stop A and try with me, she posted a very open note about it on facebook. I wish that everyone who read it would have also understood we would like to have our privacy respected, but unfortunately it just started everyone's tongue a-wagging. Maybe that was part of her changed heart/mind the following week. (added to my attitude of "great, now we can get back to happiness" which I didn't intend but tremendously regret. I was just so relieved!)
Then my stupid sister sent a "prayer request" to over 100 people (most of whom we know and know us) in her bible class saying "W is leaving Daniel for her boyfriend". I haven't seen the exact email, but wow, that wasn't helpful.
I've been trying to put out some of those fires and ask individuals to shut up and butt out. But the road back is not very smooth and clear. Thoughts, please?
did you publicize your interest in porn, to people your w knows?
that only enlarges her humiliation. Stop it for good.
Cadet, you're an experienced DBer. Can you point me (us?) at any resources on "cake eating"? I've struggled with whether I should be doing things around the house to make things easier on W, really worried that I'm giving her the best of both worlds.
My DB coach advised me differently. She feels that the things I do to make W's life better are constructive and that I'm making deposits to her "love bank".
In my case, there is only a long-distance EA, not a PA. I'm not sure if that makes a difference.
Is there a thread somewhere that I can read?
Cadet has a ton of threads for you to read!
For now I'll say what my DB coach said to me 5 years ago...
"ALL WAS/MLCers are cake eaters at first...they want out &the LBSer doesn't."
But LBSer who want to be "teaching the WAS a lesson" or "showing them the consequences" is usually seen as punitive and coming from anger, (usually it is no matter how disguised/rationalized it is) but
besides, it's NOT the job of a spouse to do those things.
Life does.
Prepare to do ALL the work on the m for a longer time than you expect.
Why should you do all the work?
B/c you are here posting to save your m and she's not.
B/C she wants out of the marriage and you are here trying to save it.
You are all we can help and you are all you control. You are NOT powerless but you do have to check yourself for motives.
Ask if what you want to do or say is coming from a place of love or anger. Will it move you towards your goal or away from it?
Will it make you feel good to blow off some steam only to realize later that you merely confirmed for her , the choice to leave?
GAL and Detach. Be the better choice. No woman is unmoved by loving interactions between her children and their dad. Be there for them like never before.
What were you like before you married your w? Get back to him.
Become a man only a fool would leave.
Anybody?
I think for the near term, I will have to bring up talks about the impending move-out. I'll move out for my week and trust that she will take her turn at the end of it.
Need to get an apartment (in her name or both, for legal safety). Need to talk about talking to the kids and talk to the kids.
I am so worried that four months from now I will be divorced and completely lost (if we move) or abandoned (if I don't). I trust that DB works, but what if I cannot wait it out? I am ready to change and let W see over time, but what if I don't have time?
You are making changes for YOU, not as a tactic to WIN her back.
DB works but maybe not the way you are expecting.
I hope you moving out has some sort of legal back up.
Because if not when your week is over and you have trusted her and find out that the trust was incorrect, well then where will you be?
You have asked for advice, sounds like you are ignoring it and doing what you think might be right.
Your wife has already proved to be untrustworthy, so why are you trusting her?
I married my wife "till death do us part." I made that commitment to my wife before God and our community, and I will honor it.
But at what cost to you and your family?
To me those words don't mean you sacrifice yourself to the marriage.
I see you doing a lot of "what if"
and a lot of "BUT for"
EXCUSES.
There is one thing I am going to guarantee you Daniel
THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES
You cannot control what your W chooses to do.
Not even "till death do you part" She has a right to divorce you if she wants to.
How you react to that choice will define who you are.
You said "in good time and in bad, for better or worse"
You gave her some worse and now you're getting some.
You will be forgiven for your past when you decide to forgive yourself and choose differently.
When you choose to make YOUR choice and live the words you cherish and hold dear
Not because you get what you want but IN SPITE OF GETTING WHAT YOU WANT.
What choice here for you is best aligned with the man you want to be?
What choice best lives out your words? YOUR VALUES? What actions speak for what you believe?
I will say this to you again Daniel.
FIGURE THAT OUT FIRST.
Then the "what ifs" won't matter...
Ok 2x4 time. I would not trust that you will be able to come back after your "week" away. I'm going to ask you again and I hope you will answer me this time. What is to stop your W from changing the locks when you are on your "week" away from home? Protect yourself.
Did you trust your W to be faithful? How is that working out?
I'm sorry to be blunt with you but right now you need to wake up from the fog you are in and think clearly. Right now your W is playing you like a fiddle and you are going right along with it. You need to set up boundaries. You say you are a doormat, well do something about it. Actions speak louder than words!
What do YOU want? Do YOU want to move "back home" or are you only doing this in the hopes that it will bring your W back to you? Even though you made mistakes in your M now is not the time to bend over backwards in the hopes that it will bring your W back that never works. Take the advice that we are giving. The number one thing right now is to PROTECT YOURSELF with this living arrangement. DO NOT TRUST YOUR W at this time.
Ok.
There's this itching and pain from my neck down to my ass.
A backbone is growing there.
I am not ready to say, Hey, W! If you wanna move out, move out.
I just have no idea how I could possible be caretaker for my three kids while doing a full-time job.
I can envision doing a 2 week sprint of going home early to pick up my kids every day and getting to work late after dropping them off, and then "making up for it" on my weeks away from the nest. Is it not my job to figure out how to make this work?
I was looking forward to my time off to work on myself. I don't know if I have what it takes to fight on all fronts with no relief.
But all of that is fighting against this idea. Thank you for the advice, the wisdom and experience. Please keep helping me. What I want is for you guys to help me see the future; what I need may be your help to find the faith to leap when I can't see.
This is so hard.
This is not my fault.
I have messed up in the past. I will do better in the future.
No, I will do better today. Right now.
Important info:
State laws here are no-fault divorce, where conduct is not considered when dividing property and children (that's more graphic and true than the law's language).
So, I still agree with W that custody should be two-week turns. Also, Mondays will always be Mommy evenings, and Wednesdays will always be mine.
But I don't think I will agree to birds-nesting unless for a short duration (maybe a month) it really makes sense, and only if/when D is official.
Until then, I think that I am going to stay put.
Please help me think through this and how to communicate this change in direction.
On 180s, I am playing soccer tonight and I've been playing my cello some. More importantly, I saw my C this morning and I've been going to 12step groups. It is time to change.
Wow, good luck with growing that backbone, because you need it now. Don't ever think, much less say you would consider letting her take the kids off to OM while you stay and work to support her. You think this is an honorable thing to do, she is thinking she will get most of ex-husbands paycheck and the kids will call OM "dad". If she wants OM that bad, she can leave the kids or he can move. You dont need to sacrifice your career and support group for the benefit of your wife's relationship with OM. If she doesn't want you, she needs to fend for herself financially too. This bird nesting idea is just you giving her ever more money, more freedom, more control.
You are already at the point of separation, you need to be legally protected now. Do not leave the house, even for bird nesting until you have a custody order in place. You also need this so she cant leave and take the kids. You probably wont be able to get them back if she does this without an order in place. And figure out what your minimum support order will be. Even in no fault states, adultery can very often be used to avoid spousal support. Child support will be based on a formula - you should give her no more than that, and only do so when ordered to.
Leo, it is a rental and both of us are on the lease. So she couldn't keep me out. But I can't kick her out, either.
And, on the moving back home, I'm truly torn because I think it might be best for my kids, but it is not best for me. It is not hanging onto my wife, though it may partly be trying to keep the peace, and be nice to her. But I'm consciously trying to keep W out of the decision, except as children's primary caregiver.
"I think it might be best for my kids,"
It is best for your kids. If your W was unhappy then she should be the one to leave. What do you want? Do you want to be home? Then be home.
MrBond, we are still in the same house. The separation at the end of the month is not what I meant would be best for the kids. Four months from now, when the kids are off for summer, we have talked about "moving back home" to where all of our family lives in another state. That is what I am torn about, as I don't know if I should choose the most healthy environment for me or for the kids.
Daniel I agree with Mr. Bond in that your W is unhappy and has OM so that is why we are saying she should be the one to leave. I can certainly understand that you want what's best for your kids we should always want that. the question still remains, what do you want?
I understand that your name is on the lease but in reality once you are out she can change the locks on you forcing you to take her to court. I spoke with a L last week in regards to when my W moves out and if I have the right to change my locks once she does even though both of our names are on the mortgage. I was told that it is in my best interest to do that because at any time my W could come into the house and clean me out. I was told that I can't come and go as I please in her new place so why should she have her cake and eat it too. She will be mad I was told but so what the only way she could get back in the house would be for her to take me to court. Sorry to hijack your thread I'm just giving you food for thought.
We are just trying to look out for your best interest right now because I'm sure you aren't ready to do it yourself. Now you could go back home with your kids and get your own place with them and leave her to fend for herself if it were me I would go that route. At this point it is best to not think of her as your W because quiet frankly she isn't especially with OM in the picture. Now I'm not telling you to be cold, mean, nasty and heartless to her what I'm telling you is to DETACH from her.
I suggest that you search out bustorama's threads on how he successfully busted his D and more importantly made some significant changes in his life. I know you will benefit from reading his threads.
I need some help on setting boundaries. I am sad to say that they are somewhat a foreign concept to me. Time for that to change.
So, she uses my computer to comm w/OM (hers is broken so we "traded"). She takes walks in the evening to talk to him on her phone (family money pays for phones). I'm glad that she leaves the house to talk.
And then there's the big one, MY WIFE IS HAVING AN AFFAIR AND I WON"T STAND FOR IT!
But what does that mean? What does it look like?
I've been looking through the forums on this, and advice is usually "Here is what I won't accept. If you do X, then Y will happen. If you don't do X, then Z will happen."
But I need help with specifics. Brainstorming:
"W, I will not live in an open M. If you continue to comm w/OM, then ..."
Okay, let's start with a smaller one.
"W, I will not allow my computer to be used to carry on an affair against me. If you continue to do so, you will have to use your computer." Zing! (just kidding)
"W, I am not going to sleep on the couch anymore. I will sleep in our bedroom. If you feel uncomfortable there, I think you should sleep on the couch." (we've been taking turns)
"W, I will not move out of my children's home unless I am ordered to do so by a judge. If you need space, we can talk about the details of you moving out."
Please help. Some of those don't feel right/strong. I could cancel our phone lines, cancel our internet (or just hide the router or change password), put her phone in a blender. Any other ideas?
And then I come back to the big boundary that is being invaded and totally belittling me. What is the "...then Y" there?
Can anyone refer me to a thread or pp# on "dropping the rope". I couldn't find it in the books, and no thread that does a good description. Lots of postings suggesting that it is what is good for my sitch (W in A but living at home). Thanks.
Sorry, pp#=page # from DR or DB books.
Dropping the rope means to stop pursuing your W. She sees pursuit as a leash (rope) that's not letting her be free.
I would suggest this and again this is just my opinion. Tell her that you love and respect her, however you will not continually be disrespected by her talking to another man while you're still married to her. Tell her that she will not be taking the children and that you have made plans for you and them to be happy.
Then pack up her things and ask her kindly to leave.
Why is your name on the apartment lease?
Drew, we are renting the house we live in. Both of us are on the lease we signed 2 years ago.
This is going to be a big weekend!
Bond:"Then pack up her things and ask her kindly to leave."
Problem is, the response I expect would be "no."
If that is the line I draw, then the action I will take would have to be legal movement towards a divorce. Bad thing to try to call a bluff with a bluff.
I want to bust this divorce, not initiate it.
"then Y" needs to be MY action, not "you should move out."
I'm so lost on this. "If you choose to communicate w/OM, then I think you should move out." I was ready to go with that until a friend opened my eyes about not really having much leverage.
So, I think this weekend will be "I'm not moving out, and I don't plan on moving later." But I guess I'm not ready to set down the boundary.
What if I stole her SIM card and got rid of the internet at home? Too petty?
She doesn't even work and yet she's calling all the shots about where you live and work? You don't even know that you'll get a job back in the old home town, but she has you thinking it's best for the kids. The thing is, she's thinking what's best for her right now. A woman who is having an A, hardly thinks about what's best for ANYONE, except herself. It's the nature of the beast.
You said you could not afford two households. Then don't agree to find another place to stay, and tell her that you will not finance her expenses for one. It just doesn't work for you. (How long has it been she's heard the word "no" from you?) Now, that is doing what's best for the kids.....not swapping out, playing babysitter every two weeks.
Let me tell you something about a wife who is having an A and wants out of the M. She has lost respect for her H. She's so done with him and the M. Nothing you do will change her feelings. Read it again.
I say that so you will base your decisions on what is the right thing to do for you and your children.....and not on how she'll feel about it. All she's going to feel is anger. No matter if you tuck your tail and follow her and the kids to the home town, it will not change her feelings.
A WAW who is in an A, has to find all the fault in her LBH so that it justifies her having an A and busting up her family.
Your family needs a leader. You need to be that leader, not your W. She does not have the family's best interest at heart.
Find your pants and start wearing them.
Sorry......something's come up and I have to run. I'll get back.
Danielf (can I call you Elf for short?)
I am glad to hear that you are working on boundaries, as that seems to be one of your key areas (it takes one to know one).
When it comes down to it, boundaries are just about defining what's hers and what's yours. Her choices are hers, and you can't do anything to change them. Your choices are yours, and she can't do anything to change them.
If she wants to leave the family for OM, that is her choice - it's on her side of the boundary. If she wants YOU to leave the family so she can be with OM, she is trying to cross over and steal something on YOUR side of the boundary! Which can only happen if you let her do so - she may come over and act as though everythign belongs to her and she has the right to dictate what happens, but she can't dictate unless you capitulate.
As far as partenting goes, even though the two of you share taht function, there are still boundaries. There is the influence she has over your children, and that influence you have over them. She is using her influence to tell them, whether they realize it or not, that a woman has the right to decide she can do what she wants, regardless of her marriage vows. The way you respond will determine the influence you have over the children. You could become vicious in fighting against her behavior, telling your children that revenge is your perogative once you have been wronged. You could go to the other extreme and give in to her on everything she says, not allowing her to experience any of the consequences of her own choices, thus telegraphing to your children the idea that a woman has all the power in a relationship and can do what she likes, and that the man is obligated to pay the price of her actions (that she herself has no obligation to pay her own consequences). Or you can hold your own, recognozing her ability to make her own decisions, but mot rewarding her for such behavior, and not supporting it.
I think your idea of saying that you will n ot support her A by letting her use your computer to carry it on is a small but excellent example. Another is reclaiming the bed, which is as much yours as hers. (Yes, I realize that I aam sleeping separately fromn my W right now, but it is for different reasons and under different circumstnaces).
I agree that trying to kick her out is not necessarily a good idea (DR has a thing or two to say about giving ultimatums), . Saying you will not move out, nor will you resign custody of teh kids to her just because she wants them and wants another man at the same time, on the other hand, keeps you on your side of the boundary and stil gives you a powerful stand.
Just some thoughts.
Wow. I really need help.
I talked with her tonight, told her that I will not be moving out, I'll be sleeping in the bed, And I do not plan to move to another state after the school year.
I was very calm. I implemented advice to talk about my choices rather than her and even though I think I was a bit wordy when I should have been direct, I think I was clear.
And then the fireworks began.
She cried a little bit, then she started yelling. I couldn't follow completely, but it started with saying that I was being mean and vindictive (I had started by saying that I hope she doesn't feel these choices are mean or vindictive, as that is not my intention, but they are choices for me and what I will do for myself). Then she was talking about her moving out and how I just want to take the kids away from her. Then she got up and picked up a crystal gift I gave her right before we got married and smashed it on the hearth. Then she grabbed an engagement photo and smashed it and ripped it up. I don't know how many of those she went through (4-5). I restrained her a bit at one point. Strange that it wasn't that hard. She is usually very strong; she's an athlete. But I got at least one large glass picture frame away from her.
Our son came down the stairs hysterical. I took him back up and got him in bed.
(I wrote the above last night while she was walking. When she got back, I put the computer away. The next post will be just a summary.)
That was pretty scary. I need to check on the kids and on her, make sure everyone is physically alright. It is 5:30am. I slept better last night than most of the past month. Weird.
Anyway, I took the keys to our only car when she started talking about how she would be packing up the kids to leave ASAP (not just the house, but the state). I need to talk to law enforcement about that today.
She tried to hit me and threw a laundry basket at me (yeah, she continued to do laundry between explosions. It was surreal). But nothing last night would get the police involved.
She was so mad. I was a blank slate. I am proud of how I comforted the kids last night. They were all very scared and confused. I got them to all stay in big sis' bed together. I should have had them sleep with me, but first I didn't know how the evening would go and I was playing it by ear, and second I had this stupid sense that it would be unfair for me to swoop into their hearts and gain connection when Mommy was hurting them. I don't understand my feelings, but I hate a lot about myself. There is certainly deep emotional problems that center on me that were part of the cause of last night. I know I need to not accept responsibility for my wife's actions, both the affair and her rage. But how do I balance that with taking responsibility for what I've done?
So, I'm a little okay with just seeing last night as an angry teenager not getting what she wanted. I've never really stood up to her like that. I always thought I was strong like a rock, and it [censored] to find that I was strong like a sidewalk.
I broke down a little when she was out last night, but mostly I was granite-faced (like a deer in headlights?). Kids asked why I wasn't sad. I think that my detachment is scary and my general emotional detachment too. But I guess this isn't the best time to be connecting with how I feel.
I'm a mess. Anyone? I've gotta go make sure my wife didn't slit her wrists...
I guess I was being dramatic. Thought I should let everyone know that everyone is physically safe.
I really need help!
I just tried to apologize about making her feel a prisoner. We talked pretty calmly. I think things were staying level until I made the mistake of saying "you have talked several times in the last 18 hours about my pornography, but you haven't mentioned your problem." She evaded some even at that. I pushed.
Sandi2, thank you for all of your thousands of posts on this forum. You have helped me to understand where my wife is. But I've lost hope in DB and these methods. Nothing on here is close to my sitch. I took you guys' advice and even talked to lots of people before putting my foot down, and Boom! I know that things wouldn't necessarily look better immediately. But there is no way that this marriage can be saved. Maybe before last night. Maybe I could have followed through on the 2-week handoffs with the kids and really become the man she would admire and want. But now there is no way.
Sorry for wallowing in sorrow. I don't know what is going to happen.
When you set boundaries, the other person is usually not happy. Did you expect her to just say, "OK, thanks"?
Give her time to calm down. Her anger is hers to deal with. You can do nothing about that.
In this sentence: "you have talked several times in the last 18 hours about my pornography, but you haven't mentioned your problem." what part do you control?
Does it do you any good to worry about anything other than what you control?
labug, I intentionally made my choices and acted without trying to influence/consider her reactions. Everyone keeps saying that I've got to make my decisions and stop trying to bring her into them.
I guess I could have envisioned a few reactions:
She could have said, okay, then I'll move out.
She could have said, then I'm taking the kids and moving back home.
She could have said, I'm getting a lawyer.
Now I have to choose:
I could say, I'm so sorry, let's go back to plan A. (I know that it is plan doormat, but it looks a lot better than what I'm facing now)
Or I can say, sticking with my decisions.
Not a trivial note: we sat the kids down this afternoon and told them that Mommy and Daddy are getting a divorce. [censored]
Did you really not expect her to over-react? I don't even know her and it didn't surprise me.
You are correct, she threw a tantrum b/c she didn't get her way. She controls you. You realize that, don't you? She will not give up that control easily. You should have stood up to her the first year of M. But, that's in the past and now your family experiences the consequences. Be careful and think it over before you act.
You made what you believed were the right choices for you and your children. She has the choice of staying or leaving.
Make sure you have thought this through very carefully. If she leaves without the kids, who will take care of them while you work, etc.
Don't discuss the porn and other things right now. It will not save the M by discussing it or making promises. Don't apologize for it any more. Don't apologize for anything you've already apologized about. It doesn't help to keep doing that, and it makes you appear weak.
Stay focused on one thing.....moving or not moving. Don't take all the problems of the M and hash over it again.
After she threw her fit and you are seeing the pain your children are in.....you regret telling her you aren't moving. Do not do anything just b/c this board tells you. This is your life! You have to do what's right for you and the kids.
Now I have to choose:
I could say, I'm so sorry, let's go back to plan A. (I know that it is plan doormat, but it looks a lot better than what I'm facing now)
Or I can say, sticking with my decisions.
I think that either one could be okay.
I think that if I say, "Here, I know that most of why you haven't filed these is because it is complicated and arduous. So while you were gone for spring break, I filed the taxes and then filled out these divorce papers. I know that you hate that I was so full of righteousness that I refused to sign them. Well, it's up to you. If you choose to sign them, then they are ready. I put in what we had agreed about. You don't need to tell me when you've signed them or filed them. Whenever you're ready." Then I can move out and GAL, relieve some stress, and 180 like crazy for two weeks at a time. And on my two weeks of being a full-time single parent, there are huge and obvious 180s I can tackle (like taking care of the kids and house). I don't know if anyone has seen success with such a drastic "rope drop," but everyone says success is not only when the divorce is busted. I started this journey going deep reading "Inside Out" by Larry Crabb. It resonated with me and was a vision of how I wanted to be. And 12-steps and recovery are not moving me towards "protecting myself." It seems like everyone is telling me to "protect myself" as an exception to "working the program." But isn't where the rubber meets the road the place where I should be most desperately fighting AGAINST my self-interest and self-protection? And practically, the terms we had discussed were much more fair than what I could reasonably expect to "win" after the horrors and injuries of a legal battle.
Or, I could say, "these are my boundaries and I have to be a strong man and protect them." I could see her calming down. I could see her R w/OM dying sooner or later and her turning to find that I was learning how to be a man she can respect and trust.
I know how those two things feel to me, but I would like to hear from others.
Thanks again for being here.
DO NOT APOLOGIZE!
You didn't do anything over the top. In fact you did the exact thing she did...state what you wanted. Stop feeling bad about it. It's time for you to get your b@ll$ back from her.
Stop saying that you are trapping her, etc. you are not. All you're doing is making sure you and your kids are protected. She's on the emotional high of the OM. Remember that case about the astronaut lady who left her family and drove cross country wearing a diaper to get to the woman whom she "truly loved"? That's where your W is now.
She sees you as an obstacle and wants to destroy that. How do you combat that? By being the rock. Look at her as the crazy person she is at the moment. In fact, I would have called the police. She could very easily flip things around and say that you "restrained" her.
You might think that your sitch is different, but it really isn't. Been there done that. All of the WAS's who have been caught with an OP have blown their lids and then try to flip it to the LBS and say they are holding back their happiness and crap.
Stand strong. You can do it. Protect yourself and your children. It's cases like this that you hear the parent kidnapping the kids and taking them to another state. Put your foot down.
What I apologized for is the choice to stay in the bed. I sorta just tossed that in there with the stuff I had thought through because you had suggested it. I think it was ill-conceived, and I should be able to admit when I am wrong. I have no feelings for the bed. While it may be indicative of other things, it has always been her bed, to me, and I was her prince whom she (used to) invite into her private chamber.
I think it just clanged the door shut on her jail cell too much. I also secured the keys to the car (she was hysterical) and we are having some acute financial difficulties. She felt very cornered, like even getting out wasn't an option. I don't think it was good for me to put her in that situation (though yes, she contributed). Hatred, like disgust, is something I want to stay away from evoking in her towards me.
I think that my wife (among other fantasies) has this idea of the future that we will get D, that will help forge me into the man she wants, and then we can start over.
I think that my well-meaning, OM-hating MIL is feeding this fantasy.
I want to imagine it too, but it is so messed up. First, W still completely will not acknowledge to herself or to anyone that she has any problems, responsibility for damaging M, etc. Some time in the future (when A fizzles), she will size me up and say, "good job, elf. That's really all I've been asking for since early in our M."
She is such a cake-eater!
I don't know what to do. Patience, just GAL and 180 and try to learn to set boundaries.
I would be sooo willing to move out and take turns caring for the kids. This would be an excellent approach to start R our M.
But if there is OM in the picture, and W has no direction towards R, then I can't work on our RM alone. I can only work on me.
I think that my ability to survive in limbo is a very important thing, coming up. How long can I last?
"What I apologized for is the choice to stay in the bed. I sorta just tossed that in there with the stuff I had thought through because you had suggested it."
No you do things because you want them. If you didn't want to sleep in the bed, then you shouldn't have said it. Don't blame others for your decision. Own up to them.
By saying that you were not going to move, you made a boundary and was justified. Where you went over the top was when you took her keys. That's control. I understand you thought she was a danger to herself, but you have to give her the choice.
Where you went over the top was when you took her keys. That's control. I understand you thought she was a danger to herself, but you have to give her the choice.
Yes, I was afraid of her taking off with the kids. I should not have done that.
"Yes, I was afraid of her taking off with the kids."
Combat this with legal representation. Talk to a L about her being a flight risk. Very dangerous to ignore something like this when she's already threatened to do this.
Not ignoring your advice (I will consult a lawyer) just wanted to share my current crystal-ball peerings:
I think she is thinking about moving out next month, then following the school year to abscond with the kids, then stay in new state for 6 months to establish residency and file for divorce there.
This certainly gives me time. I think that I broke her idea that she can get a quick and easy divorce done and then move in three months.
Reality is, D is a long process anywhere!
She is also stating an intention to be a good girl and reel in the PA to an EA (obviously not her phrasing) until she is no longer married to me. No way that can last. She's pretty stubborn, but I doubt her resolve on this. And if she can, no way that OM would wait.
Have I told this board, yet, that he already cheated on her? WAW thinking justified it in that she had cheated on him first -- with me! She's crazy.
That's happened before to many WAS's. What you have to do is stop the mindreading. Alot of your post concentrates on what you "think". Don't bother with that. Go with what you know and apply accordingly. You can do it.
Sandi2, thank you for all of your thousands of posts on this forum. You have helped me to understand where my wife is. But I've lost hope in DB and these methods. Nothing on here is close to my sitch.
What part do you feel your stitch is different from others here? Is that why you've lost hope in the DB methods, b/c you feel your stitch is different?
So, OM lives 1000 miles away, but she spent about 8 weeks there last summer and has seen him at least every month since then.
I read the
books a week and a half ago, but feels like a long time
Some 180s I'm trying to implement are:
I used to make her coffee in the mornings.
Why not still do that^^^?
I try to smile and even laugh when we are around ea other (even when she's been on the phone w/OM for the past hour).
I'm super working on my temper with kids. I've been going downhill with them for a few years, and really really need to get control.
thank God you are working on this! Good...it's something SHE can notice. Remember not to point out your changes with words. That makes them look tactical (to get her back) rather than genuine, sincere changes.I'm focusing on recovery. Have a c appt and starting back to a 12-step group. As I said, porn is symptomatic, and I'm also trying to pray, which is so hard. But that's the center of everything.
I am biting my tongue till it bleeds about OM.
Some on the horizon: I think I'll start playing soccer again. I think I should break out my cello and dust it off.
Daniel,
You have not DBd a full month yet so it's premature to give up on it. How is it that you feel your situation is so different?
Other men here have had their marriages fall apart
solely b/c of porn b/c it's very humiliating to a lot of wives.
To some wives, the porn is like their h is cheating on them. Really.
Or at best, their h wants virtual sex w/women he doesn't even know, instead of real life making love with his own wife...(just saying from a wife's perspective that can happen.)
You also say you are working on your temper w/the kids, which you agree is an issue for you. So of course that needs work and I support that totally.
Look, do the math.
consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.And
Your w must believe that
marriage to YOU can be better and different than before
or she won't return. How are you behaving differently or showing her change in YOU?You said your lack of pursuit
in the marriage was a problem but now you are "going dark" or being distant...
Do you see that NOT all approaches work in all situations?
It's not a one size fits all deal.
If your wife's love language is quality time together and you were too busy on porn or at work or whatever, to ever make a deposit in her love bank,
and now you are cool to her as your "DB approach"...then do you see why another approach might work better?
I have to wonder if you are simply choosing the easiest route for you...it sounds very passive.
Your situation has been going on for some time
but your DBing is brand new.
What were you doing before you were DBing? When Did you learn about the affair?
What was your reaction to it then?
We need more info...
.but it's not hopeless!!
that WAS a scary wacky reaction on her end...sheesh...any mood swings?
That was pretty scary. I need to check on the kids and on her, make sure everyone is physically alright. It is 5:30am. I slept better last night than most of the past month. Weird.
Anyway, I took the keys to our only car when she started talking about how she would be packing up the kids to leave ASAP (not just the house, but the state). I need to talk to law enforcement about that today.
She tried to hit me and threw a laundry basket at me (yeah, she continued to do laundry between explosions. It was surreal). But nothing last night would get the police involved.
She was so mad. I was a blank slate. I am proud of how I comforted the kids last night. They were all very scared and confused.
good^^^
I got them to all stay in big sis' bed together. I should have had them sleep with me, but first I didn't know how the evening would go and I was playing it by ear, and second I had this stupid sense that it would be unfair for me to swoop into their hearts and gain connection when Mommy was hurting them.
that^^ confuses me.
I don't understand my feelings, but I hate a lot about myself. There is certainly deep emotional problems that center on me that were part of the cause of last night. I know I need to not accept responsibility for my wife's actions, both the affair and her rage. But how do I balance that with taking responsibility for what I've done?
forget the balancing act. No such thing.
Work on YOU and only you. You have no control over her or her beliefs or actions or if the sky turns purple.
So what is the point of looking at the affair or who is more responsible for what?
You know your work to do. Focus on THAT and let her see changes in you...
So, I'm a little okay with just seeing last night as an angry teenager not getting what she wanted. I've never really stood up to her like that. I always thought I was strong like a rock, and it [censored] to find that I was strong like a sidewalk.
I broke down a little when she was out last night, but mostly I was granite-faced (like a deer in headlights?). Kids asked why I wasn't sad. I think that my detachment is scary and my general emotional detachment too.
^^^very interesting...what's your counselor say? Did your w ever tell you she wanted more emotionally, from you?
What is it that you said about not being available to her? What'd you mean?
But I guess this isn't the best time to be connecting with how I feel.
I'm a mess. Anyone? I've gotta go make sure my wife didn't slit her wrists...
check on your w for health and safety reasons.
Then put the oxygen mask on YOU so that you can provide the compassion and care your children need.
Make them your focus, and your own work...being a good father is part of being a good h. She'll notice it eventually.
You have confused her. That's the beginning of what might be a change of heart...
any change in her course will require a change of mind and a time of indecision on her end. Now that you've reacted differently, you got a different reaction.
One person can make a difference in the m b/c the m consists of 2 people.
There are many wise DBers who say "while there's an A, nothing you do will matter".
I disagree. I think OM is a symptom and that your marriage has had some serious issues for awhile now.
I see you are working on ending the porn thing, but does that mean you didn't work much on it, til she announced she wanted a divorce?
See how the changes you make b/c you want to be a better man
are going to impress her as real, much more than claims of change after she takes drastic action.
Notice she has not left you for OM yet. She could have.
She is still there. You can turn this around. List the GAL things you are doing.
And the 180s...what affirmative actions are you doing that are new and different for you?
Also please get a DB coach session b/c I don't think you are on track with which approach you need or want. (Coaching is cheaper than divorce or having 2 homes...)
The DB sessions are very specific. I had a ton of sessions and I also had a good mc.
But if I could only have ONE tool for working on my m, it'd be the coaching I got from my DB coach.
If your w sees a L, she'll learn that she will likely have to return to work if you divorce.
I don't know that OM wants to marry her, ever, AND be a step dad for 3 kids AND support her staying home...I'm doubtful. Besides, if he were seeking that AND IF she wanted it, she'd have left by now.
Your w MAY be open to a marriage retreat weekend called
"Retrovaille" which is
for marriages in crisis.
You can act as if you want to go "for the kid's sake" & "communication skill building" (which is true)
b/c if she does go, she'll get something out of it. You have to.
I have seen (and experienced) miracles happen there.
Look it up and see if one is in your area.
There are couples there who will discuss THEIR problems and theirs are ROUGH (makes most other couple's problems pale) and yet
they are there talking about their marriages, with joy and love and commitment.
Check it out.
Don't give up yet. You have only just begun to fight right.
Look, do the math.
consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.
As I said, I am really pouring myself into my kids. Yesterday, after I got home from work I was exhausted, but I went out and played football with my boys. I think I've always been a pretty good father, but I've always been okay with pretty good in a lot of things...
I've been going to recovery meetings and really working against porn. As far as she goes, I'm not advertising, but she knows what's up. I'm not doing this to convince anyone, I'm doing it for me and my kids. And for any woman in my life; I know it has devastated W. But as far as her believing, that's not going to happen for a LOONG time.
Thank you for all of your help, DBers. I will try to paint my sitch for you to help you help me (and to try to understand it and even just see it).
As far as coaching, I definitely will, but we are pretty broke for now. Maybe next week, when I get paid. I've been unemployed for a while (contributing factor?) and my first paycheck got a hold placed on it (that we had already written checks on) so we are financially hurting right now.
25yrs, thank you for the wisdom.
Some less critical 180s: I am doing a lot more of the housework and doing my own laundry and some of the kids. Even cooking dinner sometimes. Necessary if I'm going to not have a homemaker anymore.
For GAL, I am playing soccer once a week again. I brought out my cello for a couple weeks and played it some, need some direction on that. I need to get a great piece that I can focus on playing.
I hang out with friends a lot, but more just on the phone lately, as there is just no time.
Biggest 180/GAL item I just don't have what it takes for, is writing. I've ALWAYS wanted to be a writer, but writers write. I've started stories, but never followed through. But you have to have something inside you to be able to create. Cello and soccer and friends, I can do that stuff as long as my heart is beating. But my heart really needs to be on fire to write. I think that this is a good picture of much of my life and some of why W's flower wilted: life must be lived with passion. "Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."
We saw a christian MC starting in about Sept last year. Our last meeting with him he met with us individually. To her he said "elf isn't going to accept/get that it is over. You need to get a L." To me he said "this is over. You can't change that. But you can decide on how it is going to end."
He was on the far side of the spectrum from results-based coaching. But I appreciated him and our sessions with him, mostly.
I totally need to work on my listening skills. Funny that can't really practice with W right now.
"But my heart really needs to be on fire to write."
No you just need to write. It doesn't matter what it is. A sentence, a poem, whatever, you just write. If you wait for the "passion" to overwhelm you, you're going to be waiting forever. It's like M. You don't wait for love to come, you practice it and it comes naturally.
"But as far as her believing, that's not going to happen for a LOONG time. "
Mindreading. If you keep saying this, it will take a long time.
"I totally need to work on my listening skills. Funny that can't really practice with W right now."
Yes you can. You have kids together, you're going to have to interact. Start there.
Thank you, 007.
Here's why I think it will take a long time for her to believe:
I confessed to my church youth group in high school that I had a problem with porn, so she knew that it had touched my life before we even dated. When we were newlyweds, she caught me with a video I shouldn't have been watching. I started trying to fight it; went to a men's support group, read some books.
It was up and down. I advanced from a "support" group to a "recovery" group (when you go from a "problem" to admitting an "addiction") when I got a job post college, just before we had our second child.
We had another child and moved again. I worked in defense and needed a Top Secret Security Clearance for work, and as part of the background check admitted to looking at porn at work. I squeeked by, but started to going to a counselor and AA groups multiple times a week (though I wasn't alcaholic, there weren't more specific groups available near me).
I have never thought or said that my behavior was okay. In my defense, scratch that, by the grace of God, I have never advanced past somewhat soft-core porn and never to online relationships, prostitutes, voyeurism, etc.
But the story doesn't stop there. We made the big move from our home state and after six months at my new job, I was going through a more rigorous background check, and actually was taking a polygraph (lie detector) test and admitted again to porn at work. This time, I failed the clearance and lost my job. I have been through several jobs in quick succession since (none lost due to my fault, but the tumble certainly started with me).
So, last summer, part of my reaction to the bomb was to get with a IC that specializes in men with porn addiction. I've been making progress. She is upset that she had to hit rock bottom in order for me to have. Me too. But now it is more than progress, I am killing this thing.
I have been going to Sexaholics Anonymous meetings multiple times a week, and Celebrate Recovery (Christian 12-step for general issues) every week. I have a sponsor and I'm reading every day and working my program.
I don't think she's going to get convinced that if she comes back I won't revert. But more important than convincing her is being ready to help my boys avoid this path in a few years. I have work to do today to be ready for that.
any insights on why you chose porn as your thing?
What was your dad like? How did he express appreciation OR attraction to women?
what was your parent's marriage like?
What/when exposure to porn did you have?
I'm just curious as to whether it can be passed on like the alcoholic's prediposition can be...
25yrs,
Some things I've been learning about myself:
My pacivity (which has even been apparent and called out by some on this thread) is a big part of my draw to pornography. ML with W is kinda hard for me; so much focus and effort required. porn is way easy and doesn't ask for anything from me. I have not been a very competitive person in a lot of ways.
I'm suspicious that some of my behavior over the last 11 years has been due to R dynamics and stress, etc. We had 3 caulicky kids before I was 24, I always struggled to have close friends other than W, etc. W was often moody and when she was hungry she was pretty un-fun to be around. That isn't to say I'm not truly addicted and just need to take a communication course and GAL and snap out of it, though. Dad was a gentle and nice man, but it always made me want to scream how he would constantly leer at women. He is actually in SA as well, and his valley was deeper and darker than mine, but I didn't know any of this until recently. I am certainly convinced that I inherited a predisposition.
Among the mountain of things I'm trying to read right now, I'm really identifying with "No More Mr. Nice Guy" that I saw recommended on this site.
I think that, as for this forum, that's probably enough insight to my issue. I am certainly digging much deeper, on my own and in other communities. I know people here see enough to make one's toes curl, and I will answer any other questions you have. But I shy away from further disclosure here. I hope it is modesty and not shame.
25yrs,
Some things I've been learning about myself:
My pacivity (which has even been apparent and called out by some on this thread) is a big part of my draw to pornography. ML with W is kinda hard for me; so much focus and effort required. porn is way easy and doesn't ask for anything from me.
Wow that^^^ is very honest. Thank you. So, Have you realized anything else about yourself as you read that again? What does it say about you as a lover or husband?
[/i]
How about you imagine your wife saying that making love to you "is kinda hard for me; so much focus an effort required.."
Would you feel your wife was a generous lover if she said that?
And make no mistake, women rarely "just lay there," so let's not argue about who does the "Work" in making love.
I don't know any women who want to just lay there. They'd much prefer truly making love. But if their h has made it clear that it's for him only, what's the point of getting into it if it ultimately only frustrates them more?
So if your wife had said making love to you required too much effort and focus, Would you feel very valued by her? Would you think she sounded mature?
How much Would you think she valued your sexual satisfaction?
Making love is an act of profound intimacy. It's a mutual, bonding act.
Aside from physical gratification, Making love can be a source of comfort in grief, a celebratory act or even parental pride after a child reaches a milestone...and it's a unitive act.
Making it all about how fast/efficiently you can achieve your personal goal sure misses the boat, imo. I believe you will be happier when you take that all in and make changes there.
I am not going to go into graphic detail about porn and "self servicing"
but I will say it can be VERY selfish in a marriage.
I have not been a very competitive person in a lot of ways.
I'm suspicious that some of my behavior over the last 11 years has been due to R dynamics and stress, etc.
But since all of us have stress, (and we all do) isn't this really about not having the TOOLS for managing it? The good news is you can get those tools.
We had 3 caulicky kids before I was 24, I always struggled to have close friends other than W, etc. W was often moody and when she was hungry she was pretty un-fun to be around. That isn't to say I'm not truly addicted and just need to take a communication course and GAL and snap out of it, though.
when three kids are colicky, wasn't your wife the one who provided the bulk of the care? You SEEM to be saying porn was partially a poor reaction to stress.
Even if true (and it might be)
Doesn't some of her behavior make more sense now?
If anyone were to snap, based on chronic sleep deprivation and no breaks, wouldn't it be her?
Dad was a gentle and nice man, but it always made me want to scream how he would constantly leer at women.
I figured you learned it somewhere. Without knowing how he treated your mom, it's hard to know if he was disrespecting the women, and or resented them, or what.
But You know, we all inherit beliefs and traits from our parents. Some good, some bad.
We can release the traits & beliefs that are false OR just are not working in our lives....
He is actually in SA as well, and his valley was deeper and darker than mine, but I didn't know any of this until recently. I am certainly convinced that I inherited a predisposition.
Among the mountain of things I'm trying to read right now, I'm really identifying with "No More Mr. Nice Guy" that I saw recommended on this site.
I think that, as for this forum, that's probably enough insight to my issue. I am certainly digging much deeper, on my own and in other communities. I know people here see enough to make one's toes curl, and I will answer any other questions you have. But I shy away from further disclosure here. I hope it is modesty and not shame.
understood.
I was usually trying to focus on satisfying W. I'm not saying that I was a selfish lover, focussed on using W to satisfy my appetite, and preferred to get it an easier way. I'm saying selfishness was easier than focussing on her. Also, we weren't really sex-starved; we ML at least weekly.
On the kids, I did my best to help out, especially at night. I of course acknowledge that the stress was affecting both of us. And yes, we didn't have the tools to deal with it effectively.
I was about to regret that now we don't have the time to learn the tools, but then I remembered where I was. Time is on my side, and it takes one to tango.
We had a big R talk last night.
I felt like it generally went very well. We talked about the past and the future. It was a deep talk between friends; stayed calm and friendly. We went over a lot of what I'd been seeing about the past, about how we didn't deal effectively with a lot of the very stressful stuff in M. I don't know that either of us agreed to anything, but she was saying she might be willing to stay here for a year for me and the kids, and I said I might be willing to do the birds-nest custody schedule. We talked about my struggles and hers with bulimia and the similarities, etc. Afterwards, I gave her a good hug, which is more affection than we've shared in over a month.
One huge negative is she lied straight-out about her R and plans w/OM. I challenged a bit, but I couldn't tell her I've been spying on her facebook (I really need to stop that!!) so I just let it go. They are leaving to go back there tomorrow for spring break, and I'm 90% sure they are coming back after that. She said to me she has no plans w/OM, but they totally have plans.
I know I broke some DB rules, but I think I did pretty well. I think I am strong enough to hang out in limbo, but if she is ready to talk, then I have to engage or stonewall.
Next week, besides really focusing on GAL and 180s while I'm home alone, I think I will also buy my first coaching pack.
Thank you guys. Let me know what you think.
If you know she is flat out lying to you, how can you trust anything she is saying to you in regards to R? It sounds like you are believing what you want to believe, despite contrary evidence staring you in the face.
If she really is interested in R, she needs to go No-contact with the OM immediately. And she needs to be transparent. You should not need to spy on her facebook page, you should look at it to see that she is staying true to her course.
Stop letting her make all the decisions. You are a full partner and need to step up and lead here. Don't allow her to set the course of your marriage because she is still trying to cake-eat. She's got you for the day-to-day stuff and the OM for her emotional/sexual needs. Is that a satisfying setup for you?
sorry I can't post more now but YES to the coaching package.
It was the single best thing I did to make it through our crisis. They are specific and solution based.
Stop snooping. See how it did NOT help you?
Same with the semi-confronting. You are testing her and that sets you both up for failure.
If she lies, "she's a liar" and you feel like crap. If she confesses to something real with OM, then it's out there
and all the work she sees you doing on yourself appears tactical and as if
you "suddenly care ONLY b/c there's competition"... Like it's only b/c you want
to "win", not change for real.
See, if you KNEW w/ 100% certainty that any type of affair would definitively end the marriage, then I could see the need to know.
I"d disagree with you but I'd understand...and
then and only then, would snooping make sense to me.
BUT if your goal is to win her back by being the better choice, how does it help you to have details?
Makes it harder for you to focus on YOUR work which is all you control. The more you focus on what she might be doing/thinking/feeling/planning
the slower your own work progresses, if at all.
Finally, due to the distance from OM, AND her willingness to stick around for a year w/you...I'm not sure the OM means that much to her for real.
But hey, I didn't see the FB messages. I just know you have the gift of TIME to show her the changes....
how do you want to spend that time?
You'll get some advice to confront and give an ultimatum. See what the DB books say about ultimatums...(they don't like them).
I heard of it working to get a WAW home...once.
Fifty or more other DBers who did that, had it backfire.
I'm not saying to never address this issue. I'm saying for sure NOT NOW
and if/when you do it, have a realistic goal for what you expect.
Thinking she'll volunteer to end it AND then follow through, is MUCH less likely than her hiding it more & lying better,
or her just leaving you b/c she feels cornered by you.
***The more people you discuss this with, also hurts the cause.
Your need to relieve your guilt cannot come at more cost to HER. (The porn public confessions confused me as to their purpose. I think you said She was quite humiliated. And that hurt your m. Do you agree?
Same goes for "exposing the affair". It Looks punitive, (& usually is, although disguised with self righteousness). And it ALWAYS backfires.
And remember this, since you want the marriage to be reconciled.
You need to KEEP THE ROAD HOME, PAVED & SMOOTH"...
so don't make it harder for her than it already would be, by telling others.
But Ask the DB coaches.
Discuss that^^^ w/them so you'll be ready when you obsess OR get conflicting advice here which makes it harder.
My BDB Coachi was a Godsend, exactly who I needed at that exact time in my life
more later, but good luck!
Tomorrow morning, W and kids go off for spring break.
I think I am being a bit passive-aggressive on a couple of things. She dropped her phone and cracked the screen, and hasn't really asked me to fix it, but passive-aggressively talked about it. I don't want to fix her damn phone. She communicates w/OM with it. So I just kinda act dumb when she talks about it being broken.
And then tonight I brought her laptop up and said we were switching. She's been using mine, because it's better (I don't use hers much, though). I like this laptop, and if we are separating, I'd like to keep this one.
What do you guys think?
Also, I think that I will do the birds-nesting. She is willing to do the first turn away when they get back from vaca, so can't make it look in court like I abandoned. I'm excited to have two weeks at a time to really work on me, then two weeks at a time to really work on being a Dad.
But she is pretty fixated on us doing the "easy D" where we file together. In our heart2heart, I told her I almost want to do that because I understand that she hates that I am just sitting up on my high and righteous perch and she feels like she has to do the dirty work. So maybe I should really think about this: maybe I should choose what I want to do or not do, rather than doing what I think I should or shouldn't do. I don't want a divorce. It's not that I don't want to break a personal rule, I just don't want the whole thing to happen. But then am I just denying reality?
Legal stuff: 2-party D is worlds different here than 1-party. I don't know that she would be willing to stay here for another year if I closed that door.
Confession, my D10 asked what I wanted and I said "I want to be married to your Mom." Can't you stop her from D you? "No, for a M to work, both people have to want to be in it." I didn't tell her about OM, though.
On disclosure, I said earlier that W was the one who told the world about OM. Up until that point, I was talking to minister and friends about our M problems but only about porn. I kept her secret somewhat. And on sharing about that, it's not like I post about it on FB or talk to everyone about it. But being open to several guys is a key cornerstone in my recovery. I had posted early in my sitch that I'd love advice about our too-public issues and how to minimize how that tears up the path home.
Oh, and one more thing: W has been asked to speak w/minister before returning to church. Advice for the future, do I bite my lip if she lies to him?
FIRST rule of getting tough....
I WILL NOT SHARE a woman of mine with another man.
PERIOD. END OF STORY. NOTHING TO TALK ABOUT.
It isn't up for negotiation. IF you want and choose him then so be it. I will be perfectly fine without you and as a matter of fact I think this is for the best.
...
Now.. What to do?
Become distant until she asks if somehting is wrong or what is up with you.
Then prepare this speech.
"I have been doing some thinking and here is “what I have decided” (be decisive because women are attracted to and respect decisive men)
I have decided that I want you to move out. The sooner the better. I don’t know what I have been thinking and now can’t believe that I have tolerated for so long you wanting to be with another man. I haven’t been perfect as a husband, but I do believe I have done my best to love you and to be a good man.
However, that doesn’t matter now. That was then and this is now. I want you to find a place and be out of here by_______"(give her a small window to move out)
Don't be mean and don't be punitive. Firm and strong and confident in your new position. Don't back down.
Don’t put it up for negotiation. Be firm and resolved that SHE must move out and that
you WANT her out as soon as possible. Move forward on the divorce and stay strong by going for whatever is fair in the dealings regarding financials and such…
...
That is tough love. She will never respect you if you keep allowing this because you are too scared to put the whole relationship on the line and risk losing her for good. She needs to wonder if she lost YOU in this process. Let her worry about how she is going to make ends meet and let the OM worry that now that he HAS is opportunity if he can step up to the plate and support HER..
That’s it….. Strong, confident, firm, and YOU DO NOT SHARE.
The above is from a really old thread I was reading on these forums. This site is a gold mine when you dig in.
I'm seriously considering filling out the D papers while she is gone and handing them to her with something like the above when she gets back.
A few things...
Yes, I know I would have to be serious. I know I would have to mean it.
Do I really want this MR to survive? Yes I do. Totally.
But what he said about being strong enough to put things on the line really speaks to me.
I agree w/25yrs, this ultimatum will probably not turn out well. But my wife is leaving in a few hours to have a spring fling with her paramour!!!!
Opposing view, I have time. I can wait out her romp and craziness. Then, if/when she comes around, we can start the long hard process of clearing away the wreckage and building a new M. There is the woman I married somewhere lost in that jumbled confusion, and for her and our children and for commitment and love, reconciliation is the best path.
I've got a week to decide. A real man doesn't make decisions by committee (something I've been guilty of before), but I invite your advice. I got Love Must Be Tough, and hopefully that will give me some guidance, too. And prayer. Lots of prayer.
And either (any) road I choose, I will be building myself into a better man.
That is said so often around here, it feels a bit cliche. But I really feel like a lion is awakening inside of me.
I know I'm flipping all over the place. The goal is to get rid of all the indecision before each move.
Or at least trade some indecision for some resolve.
Or at least trade some indecision for some resolve.
you are in transition so the "certainty" you seek is an illusion.
Your feelings will change often. So will your w's.
Get a DB coach.
IMO your discussion w/your d was really inappropriate. Next time ask a DB coach or mc before you blurt out such destructive information.
You made your w the bad guy, which is uncool. Although in your mind she is the bad guy,
you are being unfair and acting like you have amnesia. You believe the marriage was fine and you were a great h and for some selfish inexplicable reason your w chose to cheat?
She never did before and she is not normally a liar but all this is on her?
The other reason you were not right to do it is thinking ahead...your d is either a fan or your w or a soon to be rebellious child.
You think your d won't ask her mom what is going on?
She will!! Maybe She will lash out at her mom...or ask questions about what SHE did wrong in the marriage....b/c after all "daddy said he did not want the divorce"...
and THEN YOUR wife will bring up your porn problems, and other issues...how will your d see you then?
No one said you have to LIE for your w about OM, but you almost sounded proud for not telling your d...
so let me be clear about this
if you do tell her or anyone else like your d, you will regret it.
It will hurt YOU far more than it will hurt your w.
I hope you can figure out why that is the case. I am familiar with Gucci's threads. He has helped men who were doormats before but that's not you.
But you seem to think your w's affair happened in a vacuum while she was in a fulfilling happy m.
Not so. Don't get amnesia now, when you really need to show your w that you have dug deep and are a new changed man. YOu have the gift of time to show her this and you'll get some breaks from having her in your face 24/7...
use this time wisely. Lovingly and with dignity and strength and honor.
Back to the kids....
The standard focus is to make sure the children know what will NOT change IN THEIR LIVES...
stress what remains the same for them.
Same house, no moving, same friends, same school, same neighborhood, etc. How often they'll see each of you. Give details and predictability.
Also -
My DB coach told me to say this when asked about a poss divorce.
First off, unless you are actually about to file, do not say it is for sure happening.
It's okay to say "I don't know yet"...b/c things change all the time.
Even after filing.If they ask "are you getting a divorce?"
you may Answer 1) "I don't know yet, but I hope not, b/c w is the love of my life...
2) "Hope not b/c I have loved spouse for such a long time..."
3) "hope not. But no matter what, I'm so glad we did marry
b/c we have YOU and
I'd do it all over again in a heartbeat if that's the only way to get a special child like YOU...
you end each answer with a reassuring comment to the child about how loved they are. Make sense?
if I recall Gucci's situation
or the situation he was referring to, the h had been attentive but the w was having a MLC and being unreasonable. Her h tried pleasing her and changing for her for some time before issuing that statement...
and in his case his wife DID know he'd been a good man on the whole and she did come back.
I don't mean to blast you okay? I just think you still minimize how much damage your porn and other issues did to the marriage
and I can't see her choosing you at this point. If that's alright with you, then let it end.
But if you believe you can/will change into the man you were meant to become
and not a genetic replica of your dad, then change into that man FIRST
and see how you feel later. PLEASE GET A DB COACH...
YOU WILL NOT REGRET IT....best money I ever spent. Much cheaper than divorce
and better for you, better for your kids and better for the cause
I just purchased my first three-pack of DB coach sessions.
I will probably do the first session later this week, and I'll try to be prepared.
great!!!
Write down at least 3 questions for them before hand. You'll give backstory, length of marriage, kids, prior separations or fights or traumas in life but don't get into too much history that isn't relevant to TODAY
tell them HER issues (ie, what she SAYS is wrong with you or the marriage)
how YOU see it and what is valid, versus fabrications, and what YOU want...
then they might ask you stuff
but make sure you get some specific advice about how to handle questions or situations that worry you the most.
I had some "mantras" ready and they helped me a lot. Either for me only
or for my kids or for my h in the event of an argument or uncomfortbable sitch.
Good luck!
Thanks! I'm looking forward to talking with Joanne on Wednesday. I'll write down some questions and conversations in advance.
So, I think partly there is an element of me looking at these tools and methods, and less at the uniqueness of my situation.
I found a hammer, so I started pounding away as if everything was a nail.
I am glad that I have this week to let my brainstorm subside.
25y, I don't appreciate you suggesting that clarity isn't right around the corner. I really feel like I'm overwhelmed, like I'm really drowning. I suspect that what I need to do right now, in my marriage and my recovery (and with my kids, job, etc.), is to surrender.
I wish it were time for me to stand up and be a man. Grow a spine, enforce my boundaries...
I wish it were time for me to shine and be the man that I was made to be. Write, succeed, kick bad habits, win that woman back.
I suspect that this is the most important time in my life. In 20 years, I think that I will be a useful, solid man who impacts other people's lives with care and confidence and grace, or else a bit of a sniveler, that you'd prefer not to spend much time with given the choice.
What is so frightening to me is I can see either result proceeding from any of the paths I'm considering right now. And I don't really know how to make decisions like that. I'm too disconnected from my heart to know what feels right. I don't have experience enough. I've identified many wise voices that resonate with me, but also come to see a pattern in my life of giving up my decisions to others, which I am coming to regard as a tragedy.
Just had my phone call. It is a sign of a messed up person that I feel relieved/proud that she said that I'm in a complicated situation.
A lot of where we got to was that I will be paying attention (and experimenting) very specifically in the coming weeks for exactly what I do and how she reacts.
Some things about going dark might not fit in my sitch, since inattention was part of what got us here. Those things will be part of my experimentation. Awareness is key.
I was a little disappointed at the end that I didn't have much more clarity on what to do in the future (like 25yrs said). We didn't get directly to my questions. I didn't feel direction and confidence at the end. But in the last half-hour there has been a dawning peace. I don't need specifics. I have been given a framework for how to move forward. It is a gift, and I am grateful and will use it wisely and the best that I can.
"25y, I don't appreciate you suggesting that clarity isn't right around the corner. "
She's right. It isn't. Clarity comes through with alot of trial and error. And no one gets it right off the bat. Especially someone who has only been at this for a couple of months. You were pretty rude.
"I wish it were time for me to stand up and be a man. Grow a spine, enforce my boundaries...
I wish it were time for me to shine and be the man that I was made to be. Write, succeed, kick bad habits, win that woman back."
So what's wrong with right now?
"In 20 years, I think that I will be a useful, solid man who impacts other people's lives with care and confidence and grace, or else a bit of a sniveler, that you'd prefer not to spend much time with given the choice."
Okay here's the 2x4. Alot of what you've posted is you feeling sorry for yourself. You have one of two choices. Either you can wallow in the hole that you find yourself in and just continue to sink. OR you can choose to look up at the opening of that hole and CHOOSE to claw your way out of it.
Look at yourself in the mirror. Do you see the MAN that you want your son to become? Do you see the man that you would want your daughter to marry?
If not, then CHOOSE to fight and become a better person. And there's no better time than right now.
I get the pity party. We've all been there. And your self-esteem has been shot, chewed up and spit out by your W's actions. I get it. Heck, my W had an A with her boss twice her age. It took me awhile to get over it, but I chose to be the better man now for my kids. They were my inspiration.
See what fires you up and do something about it.
Bond, I was meaning to be joking. Sorry. Should have put on a
Please forgive me if I was rude.
I am confused, too.
When I said earlier, "I don't appreciate..." I meant it to be joking. I knew you were just telling me the truth, and I do appreciate that. But it stings. I wish clarity were around the corner. That you've been there and tell me that it is not is disappointing, but just means I need to learn to move forward in the fog. Maybe "rely on my instruments" like a pilot in the clouds?
So, bond and 25yrs, thank you. If I was rude, please forgive me. It was unintended.
I guess that I have been pretty sorry for myself. Thank you for calling me out on that, and please keep me straight on this.
Basically, I do not feel that the life I want is a decision a way. I don't think I was bewailing that fact, just a little indecisive on the first steps to take. The direction one sets out in greatly affects the destination one arrives at.
But that assumes a methodology of "first one step, then another, then another..." This is related to the human pattern of doing what doesn't work, then doing more of what doesn't work.
My coach suggested for me (and this whole DB system is built on) a different framework. "First one step, then look around and see where it took you. Be aware. Now, what is your next step going to be?"
You guys know this: bond said "Clarity comes through with alot of trial and error. And no one gets it right off the bat."
But my listening skills need some work.
I am looking for someone to give me a map. There is no map. Nobody has ever been where I am. But I have been blessed to find some experienced orienteers who are friendly and willing to help me as I find my own way. Thank you. I am grateful.
My family will get back next week, and even between now and then I will be paying attention to what works and what doesn't work in life. When I ask to talk to the kids on the phone, how does W react? When I ask my S9 "So tell me about something that happened today?" do I get a preferable answer to when I ask "Are you having a good time." ("Yes" is easy to beat)
When I try to break my thoughts up and organize them, do I get better responses to my posts than when they are meandering and filled with whatever disappointment and desperation I am feeling when I write them?
I am confused, too.
Basically, I do not feel that the life I want is a decision a way. I don't think I was bewailing that fact, just a little indecisive on the first steps to take. The direction one sets out in greatly affects the destination one arrives at.
I intended to write "I do not feel that the life I want is a decision [u][/u]away[b][/b]."
Meaning, although I feel the urge to summon all my forces and explode on a new course into the life I desire, I do not see where to direct all my efforts.
And the answer is, I don't need direction and guidance. I need courage and commitment.
And from this forum, I need to stop looking for advice and start using you for a sounding-board to help me to process my own decisions and observations. And please keep en-couraging me. I will certainly need heap loads of that.
Thanks.
something that helped me as a guide post for the whole journey
was a role model I created for myself to become, based on two women I know, with some of "ME" added in for realism.
I just imagined my best self and what she was like on regular days. I imagined how SHE would react to not so good situations...(Of course SHE would not be in as many of these "situations" but IF)
and I saw some Mother Teresa stuff, but then I toned it down to be more realistic for me. So I saw the nurturing side of myself that exists, in full bloom, the encouraging partner I once was, the warm lover, the fun loving friend, the buddy who laughs hard & often...
and I really really tried to live up to that image. I fell short!! OFTEN!!
But I had my moments early on too. And they did help, or at least kept things from escalating that ordinarily would have.
And I'm a better woman now than I was before. That's important.
And I'm a better partner.
Today? No, NOT All of our problems are solved and we get new ones b/c life throws curveballs.
About 3 months after we reconciled & were barely in "Piecing", my mil was diagnosed with terminal cancer and I did a lot of caring for her. I quit my job to help out.
That was NOT expected and it was utterly draining and terrifying and a lot of other things...but I "showed up" for her and my h and btw, she had not been close or kind to me or the kids. But I know I did right by her.
I like to THINK the kids admired that. At least I have hopes that if I'm in those shoes, they'll recall it!
Anyhow, the point is, we began to backslide at the time. We had NOT gotten tools for this type of crisis as we were barely resolving what had separated us.
Then we went to Retrovaille and I'd urge you to give that a try. I think I already mentioned it but if not, it's a weekend retreat FOR marriages in trouble.
Works small/not so small miracles. Helped EVERY couple there. 3 years later, 80% are still married and considering why they were there in the first place (ie crisis), that is saying a lot.
Check yourself for self serving rationalizations.( We all do them). But they hurt us & the people we love, often. So beware.
& Keep posting!
25, thank you so much for keeping with me and not giving up on me, even when I don't make much sense!
Great advice on envisioning who I would like to be and gauging decisions against that "person." I will start writing/thinking about who I want to be.
You had mentioned Retrovaille, and they have a couple weekends that would work as far as logistics, but I just feel so far from being able to ask something like that of W. Seems like a piecing-stage thing. Piecing stage, wonder if I'll ever see that?
W is now bringing the kids back three days late so that she can feed a dog for her sister. And now she doesn't want to get an apartment here because it would cost too much. Keeping me on my toes, at least.
Please chime in if you have any opinion:
W wants to stay on vacation an extra week, despite the kids' school starting back tomorrow.
Which of these options is better for the kids?
Extra week of vacation? W would bring them back next Monday. I am fairly confident that she would, as the rental car is due back then (W is very worried about $), and it follows a race she was planning to run.
My parents are able to fly them up here tomorrow night, so they would go to school on Tuesday. Then Daddy and they get to figure out what being a single-parent family feels like.
Neither option, I think, is wildly crazy.
Hi danielf - what in your opinion is best for the kids?
25, thank you so much for keeping with me and not giving up on me, even when I don't make much sense!
Great advice on envisioning who I would like to be and gauging decisions against that "person." I will start writing/thinking about who I want to be.
You had mentioned
Retrovaille, and they have a couple weekends that would work as far as logistics, but I just feel so far from being able to ask something like that of W. Seems like a piecing-stage thing. Piecing stage, wonder if I'll ever see that?
Two comments about this^^^... 1) you may be able to persuade your w to go for the kid's sake AND to learn to communicate better; but get her there.
2) Retrovaille is NOT for piecing stages only. (Going anytime would be good, frankly) but
we saw several couples at Retrovaille who were planning to split up, or were seriously thinking about it. It's FOR couples in crisis.
You may be confusing it with "marriage encounters," which are for marriages not in crisis but looking for a "tune up".
Retrovaille is for couples who think they want to throw in the towel OR who want an engine overhaul but lack the tools...and feel hopeless.
Do not delay going if you can get there. It's not offered more than twice a year here, btw. So, take advantage if you can.
But make no mistake, the ONE weekend is a jump start -a good one- but there's a follow up program and support group to keep the changes going,
and to learn new ways of handling problems. DO THE FOLLOW UP...I cannot stress that enough.
Some couples find the old spark at the weekend retreat, and figure they're fine now... but then they backslide and give up. So stay with what works.
That's why the program has the success rate it has. It's not a one weekend fix all, but it sure does get things going.
No matter how you get her there, it's impossible for her Not to get something out of it.
A lot of the couples had one spouse intent on divorcing, but willing to go to Retrovaille, to check it off their list...they may have hoped it could help smooth things out for the divorce by "getting along" at the weekend...
but many of those very spouses were surprised to feel differently on Sunday night. They found that Retrovaille SLOWED their divorce plan down, got them to re-evaluate, and frequently stopped them in their tracks.
Do not put it off
or wait for things to improve OR deteriorate to do Retrovaille. THIS is a step to get you to piecing...
I could be wrong but Something tells me you are a bit too passive in this regard. You don't put in the work or take the iniative to improve things and don't want to confront if it's difficult or emotionally charged (the porn may be symptomatic of that too??)...
rather than solving the problem when she's upset, you'd "wait for her to cool down" instead of going after her to apologize, or to make your case.
While that APPEARS to be the easiery way out of conflict - it resolves nothing and almost always worsens things in the long run..seething resentments you may not be aware of, or repeated woundings at being rejected, which I suspect the porn felt like, to her.
Regardless of that issue, in the long run, "conflict avoidance" is NOT easier on anyone. I wish more people realized this, sooner. It means that you don't know how to solve tough problems together. That's such a huge life skill all couples need, to be a team.
You don't have to agree, but do you get what I am saying?
W is now bringing the kids back three days late so that she can feed a dog for her sister. And now she doesn't want to get an apartment here because it would cost too much. Keeping me on my toes, at least.
I will post more later--
Daniel,
This is a bit long b/c I think there are some opportunities here for learning more than what meets the eye. So here we go...
Please chime in if you have any opinion:
I'm a little confused here. There is a situation and an undercurrent here.
Re: the situation...so, let me see if I have this right. Your w had the kids out of town for spring break but stayed a bit longer to help her sister/dog...now she'd like to extend it a week more, but it's during the school year...
Is this b/c your wife does not want to come home yet?
Is that what's really bothering you?
B/c you mention the rental car AND your parents being available to come get the kids, and fly them home, so that, what? Your w can remain there longer? Travel more? Bring them home later by car, or what? Are those really the ONLY reasons?
Okay, I'll go with the assumption that the kids could get home via plane, and therefore the rental car is irrelevant.. And that leaves the issue of missing a week of school. Right so far?
VACATION---Are they with older relatives who have limited time left on earth? Are they doing fun, exotic things, even learning stuff, WITH family they are getting to know better and bond with?
In other words, What's the big attraction, beyond the normal bonding family stuff?
And what's the fear you have about it?
Are you concerned w is house hunting or job hunting there? Other than missing school (which I'm not minimizing), is there something specifically that you fear about them being there?
W wants to stay on vacation an extra week, despite the kids' school starting back tomorrow.
Which of these options is better for the kids?
Extra week of vacation?
Truly it Depends on the pros of the vacation and the cons of missing school.
There ARE times it is so worth it to miss school!!
We took our youngest d, then 12, to Europe in order to see her older sister perform in the theater in Europe. We also brought my terminally ill MIL.
Went to Venice,Italy, saw the show in Germany and stayed in Budapest too...We all learned a ton of history and art and geography...AND spent real time with dying MIl, my kids sick grandma.
-AND-- D12 missed 2 full weeks of school. It was So worth it (not just emotionally for the family memories d14 (now she's 14) will always have that otherwise she would NOT) and when I compare that to her "losing" b compared 10 days of mindless or tedious homework, a few interesting assignments she can learn over a weekend, or listening to a kid read out loud about something, or watching some videos and going to gym class.
CERTAINLY sometimes the travel & missing school IS what's best for the children... the answer DEPENDS on several factors...
The principal told me, off the record, that he'd do the same if he were us.
And at your kid's age, it's hardly academically fatal to miss a few more days.
Easter is coming up, so they may even have Friday or Monday off. So how many days are they really missing? And before a holiday or right after a break, there will be other kids absent, and the material will be slow getting off, imo.
When we lived in Alaska, we took vacations From there in the winter, like in late January. For a good 2 weeks.
I recall ZERO questions being asked about where we were going or where we were. But that's Alaska in the winter...we needed sunshine and everyone knew it.
I don't know your kids' schools or their requirements or flexibility levels, so we have to advise in a bit of a vacuum.
Daniel, is worth it in terms of the vacation/family time itself?
well, we know they are all young enough that they're not missing difficult concepts that will haunt them until college...but
Like I said, I don't have enough info to assess this.
Check yourself.. for an undercurrent I feel periodically popping up in your views.
Is it possible you're seeing her request as a "win/lose" thing, between your w and you? If so, WHY? And do you expect gratitude from her? Think about those expectations...
To me It feels as if you think she's asking YOU for a favor, as if it's costing you something, rather than you both making a decision about a -vacation vs school-.
Is there a way to be a "team" of 2 parents deciding things together here? 180?
Try not to look at it as a win/lose thing, b/c that is scorecard keeping all over again. Most Everything I say to you COULD be turned around and said about her but that's sooo useless. It's like 9 y/o's saying "I know you are but what am I?"
You are here and we are working on you, not her. Don't forget that.
Scorecardss will stink for your kids, forever...hey--instead of the same old,
show her a NEW way of problem solving that does not make anyone "right" or "wrong"...make sense? That would be a nice little demonstration of a 180, correct?
Daniel-IMO---for most women--
it is the PROCESS of decision making/problem solving, that is more important than the actual decision made. This is important to fully realize.
The PROCESS of it is a bonding experience, it shows real respect & love and commitment to finding solutions AND it usually results in better decisions. Plus you have "buy in" from both people so if the decision needs to be reversed or modified, no blame needs to be assigned. You can both, again, process the new situation and make a new decision... our judicial system is based on procedures that are more likely to free an innocent man than if we had none and simply were "winging" it...but in real life in our marriages, when we don't have a PROCESS for problem solving, we end up making bad choices, getting mad about them when they don't work out OR getting mad even though they did work out---b/c we were not included.
My h bought a snowmobile in Alaska. We had discussed it in theory. Then He saw a good deal and went and got it. I ASSUME the process was a few days but I don't know b/c he didn't involve me and I cannot recall why, or if there was a reason (other than I had a newborn).
But I would have loved to have been there and helped get it home, and feel involved. I was shut out. It bugged me a lot and even though the choice itself was a good one (it was a good deal) being shut out of it, and presented with a fait accompli, took much of the joy out of it for me. Like he took that away.
It's a small example but I hope it makes my point. Do you get what I mean? So focus on HOW you approach problems TOGETHER and come up with a process for it. Maybe see if the DB coach can advise or suggest reading for it...
I believe most women want to feel listened to, and included for decisions, treated with respect, not manipulation, no "decisions by intimidation" or a war
of attrition in which one person just wears the other out until they surrender/give in. [b] When you see that it's usually the same person surrendering, watch out.[/b]
That's such a common & destructive pattern that ends A LOT of marriages.
I'm not saying it's you, but that it's common.
SIDENOTE--The "surrenderer" usually ends up being the WAS, and the "winner" is usually stunned as an LBSer. The LBSer will say "but he never told me he was unhappy" and that may be true. But to the surrenderer/WAS, What good would it have done?
Most WASs have tried to warn their LBSers and many truthful LBSers realize that indeed, they were warned. But til the day of the bomb dropping, there didn't seem to be the need for real change...in their minds.
Something big enough had not happened yet for them to care enough to really CHANGE. When the bomb drops, they feel like they got hit with a ton of bricks.
But when they dust themselves off and begin to really LOOK in the mirror, often they see the warning signs they chose to ignore at the time...to avoid conflict or digging deep (Oh, the irony).
To the WAS who was constantly surrendering or giving in, shrugging & saying "it's not important"...(and sighing)
it may appear to others that it makes for a peaceful marriage. In reality, it builds up a lot of anger.
I've known 2 women who said they "never fought with their h's"....TWO, in all my years...one was my younger sister and the other a childhood friend.
Both of those women had h's who left them - and the women were SHOCKED & devastated by being abandoned.---- their h's were seething surrenderers, and maybe your w is too.
We, the witnesses to those marriages, were sad but not shocked...but I digress...
Daniel, when you write or speak, please be clear & direct-esp with your wife. Don't make her guess. Clearly stating what you feel or think, Obviously helps communication, but it's also a sign or responsibility on your end. AND that btings me to that undercurrent I was mentioning earlier.
Being clear when you communicate is responsible b/c it means you own what you say. You can handle the effect of stating an opinion, such as others not agreeing. "Hinting" is generally counter productive. It belongs on a sitcom.
It's a way of trying to squirm out of something later, with phrases like "No, I did not actually SAY that"--
so you can try to avoid being accountable for implying it a hundred times...
Sometimes you dance around things when you know your real answer, a truth about you, won't "sound so good"...if you "rehearse" it and don't like how it sounds but it's truly how you feel and you are embarrassed by that,
one of your options OUGHT to be reassessing that opinion. Maybe you're wrong and your conscience is guiding you or maybe you need to empathize more and realize that in the grand scheme of things, getting your way on a small issue, is not helping the grander cause.
If you really feel that you want something, but objectively let's say it's selfish as hell for you to expect it...then work on being mature enough to change that want of yours.
Don't pretend you don't have it, or hint around about it and then act offended when someone says "gee Daniel, that's a selfish request"...
For instance-when we were talking about porn in your marriage and how it did NOT help things...
Remember that question I asked?
I asked you how you'd feel IF
your w said sex with you was "sorta hard" on her b/c she'd have "to focus on you instead" of just herself, AND
that she often preferred "porn/self service" to making love with you. Do you recall that question?
You changed your answer and explanation first, b/c you knew it sounded pretty lousy.
And then you avoided answering the "how would you feel IF" questions...so that's where I was going with this tangent. Not to slap you about the porn, but to identify the rehearsed nature of your wording, and how it hinders your r's.
You need to know how what you say sounds--so you can own it OR change it for real.
Meaning, if something you feel turns out to be damn selfish or mean spirited, it does not make you a demon. But you have to stop rationalizing it OR pretending it's not what you said or wanted...
"owning it" means you can change it for real. You can deny yourself things that are harmful even if you want them b/c that's what mature adults do.
And it's worth it!
So Daniel, own your comments and don't expect mind readers in life.
I could not accurately advise here b/c it SEEMS as if you are upset and you won't say so or why... is it really that the kids are missing 4 or 5 days of school that bothers you? Really?
It's crucial to stand back objectively.
If you were your kids, which would bother you the most: would you be bugged about maybe getting behind in school and missing your friends for a week,
MORE THAN-
you'd mind missing out on being with cousins/grand parents, sleeping in and having a fun vacation?
you can also ask your kids...at least the oldest.
W would bring them back next Monday. I am fairly confident that she would, as the rental car is due back then (W is very worried about $), and it follows a race she was planning to run.
does the phrase "fairly confident" mean you are merely concerned about her timing the return, OR that you are worried she might NOT return?
My parents are able to fly them up here tomorrow night, so they would go to school on Tuesday. Then Daddy and they get to figure out what being a single-parent family feels like.
Neither option, I think, is wildly crazy.
I don't know what you mean here. Daddy is you. So are you wondering what a single parent's life is like? You'd take them to school and be with them at night, which is what your wife does now, correct?
And why do you say "neither option is wildly crazy"?
What's crazy about them returning now?
Are you trying to say you want them ALL to come home now - and anything other than that, is going to hurt you?
That's okay to express, but be clear. I feel like I'm decoding.
Assume I'm a dullard. Assume I need you to tell me directly what is bothering you about which part of this. Otherwise this is too much guesswork and mind reading.
If i were also emotionally invested (as a wife & husband are) it would be too complicated & frustrating to deal with innuendo and guesswork.
Use declarative sentences to speak your mind, with as much love as you can...and when I say "speak your mind," of course I mean in a DB way.
You were smart to Post here and explore your options first...
and remember to check yourself BEFORE you act or speak.."is this action/wording going to help my cause or push me further from it?"
Keep on posting and hang in there. We await more info...
I called W to work out together what would be best for the kids. I identified some ways that I might try to selfishly steer the decision and tried (successfully) not to do so. Talking about it didn't really bring a clear decision out, and things got a little strained. But then I said it might be a good time to start taking turns, and I am now going to get them from the airport in an hour. I feel like the decision-making process went well and we ended up agreeing that this is best.
Talked to my boss this morning and she knows that I will be on and off Dad duty, and I'll make up the time/effort/commitment when W has the kids for when I can't give 100% at work. She understands and is supportive.
25, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your gift of attention, experience, and care. I don't have time right now for an adequate response to your posts, but I want to say that your personalized messages to me are beginning to penetrate and maybe take root. I am humbled by your love for me, essentially a stranger. I promise that I will take your words to my heart. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Sorry for the hiatus. The kids came back up here last week, and W came back yesterday. Single-parenting is hard, but that's only an excuse. I had times I could have written back. I have time for whatever I set as a priority.
Do not put it off
or wait for things to improve OR deteriorate to do Retrovaille. THIS is a step to get you to piecing...
I could be wrong but Something tells me you are a bit too passive in this regard. You don't put in the work or take the iniative to improve things and don't want to confront if it's difficult or emotionally charged (the porn may be symptomatic of that too??)...
...
Regardless of that issue, in the long run, "conflict avoidance" is NOT easier on anyone. I wish more people realized this, sooner. It means that you don't know how to solve tough problems together. That's such a huge life skill all couples need, to be a team.
You don't have to agree, but do you get what I am saying?
I do. I have asked her a little about the Marriage 911 Workshop by Joe Beam, and her response to "trying everything" was "there will always be another thing to try." I will ask her in the next week about Retrovaille, saying let's try
something.
I am finally ready to work on myself. "Conflict avoidance" has always been my MO, but it is hard for me to even see this as more than a pattern. I can't think back to particular interactions where I backed down to avoid conflict. But I will keep trying to see the past with clarity, while focussing on the present and analyzing a day as it ends. How did I interact with her? What was I trying to do (honesty is tough)? What were the results? I don't need to obsess or regret, but I do need to
learn.
I am finally at a point in my life where I want to change more than my behavior and where I see that more than my behavior
needs to change. I am acknowledging that my actions, behaviors, and habits are based on and come from my attitudes, beliefs, and deep things that I have never paid attention to. Laziness, based on fear, has led me to look for the quick-fix.
So, I will try to get her to go to Retrovaille. I fear that I might have to twist her arm, but I need to be willing to do that.