Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: Crazyville When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 02:45 PM
Continued from part 3

WoW! A lot of points being covered very quickly. I'm having a hard time fitting them all in my head at one time, so I'm going to do this in pieces.

There seems to be a recurring theme about forgiveness. I get that forgiveness is important. I think I don't know what I'm missing.

When I was asking about what to do with the "knowing," I was referring to the underlying message, not knowing about the action itself. The action is forgivable, especially when it doesn't happen again. Or, even if it happens again and again but isn't a relational issue, then it's easy to forgive as well. I also think it can be easy to forgive when you accept that you had something to do with causing the problem in the first place. (eg. If your S has an A and you recognize your part in the R that lead up to that.) And even if you had absolutely NOTHING to do with it, any action can be forgiven by someone that wants to.

I was asking about what to do with it afterwards, after you've forgiven, but when you KNOW something you didn't know before. A great hypothetical would be if you found out your H/W was gay. You can forgive them for whatever you think needs forgiveness (NOT looking to debate this,) but the fact now remains that your S is homosexual, with all that that entails. Forgiveness does NOT make everything better. All the forgiveness in the world will not make the R right.

You now KNOW something about that person that changes your R forever. You can't possibly go forward in your R pretending that you don't, and there's no way to actually UN-know it, nor do I believe it would be wise to do so.

THIS is what I feel like I'm struggling with, not the forgiveness itself.
Posted By: InAPickle Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 03:59 PM
CV: "THIS is what I feel like I'm struggling with, not the forgiveness itself."

Then allow me to interject.

Go back to what Sandi said about her H not "deserving" forgiveness. Does anyone really "deserve" to be forgiven for anything? The answer is "no". No one deserves forgiveness.

Forgiveness in relationships is really for the "forgiver" not the "forgivee." (I'm not talking about divine or religious stuff)
As MWD writes, it's a gift we give ourselves, but she makes it sound a little too easy.

Let me give you an example - Me.
Here's a saying I coigned not long after the D.

"Do not confuse forgiveness with insanity. Forgiveness is letting bygones be bygones and not holding an offense against another person. Insanity is making yourself vulnerable to their crazyness all over again."

As you can see, I'm nowhere near "there" yet. I can let go of the pain. I can let go of my XW. But right now I couldn't take her back, even if she snapped out of her crisis. It would be sorta overwhelming, and I know I am not ready.

But that doesn't mean we never will be ready! These things take time. We've all been traumatized to some extent or another.

Continue to hope, because it isn't the "knowing" that is holding you back, it is fear.

None of us want to see ourselves vulnerable again to a betrayed trust. But that's okay. This is normal, a stage along the journey. I'll pray that we both get "there" soon, hows that?
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 04:14 PM
No one technically deserves forgiveness. And it's not for them anyway. I totally get that.

It doesn't help me with how to go forward in a R when the new (forgiven) information completely redefines the R.
Posted By: Accuray Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 05:15 PM
Hi CV,

First of all, I renew my appreciation for your presence here. I know this introspection and criticism is hard to deal with, and I know you feel like the wronged party in your M. I like you and I enjoy your thread, so don't get discouraged!

I don't agree that no one deserves forgiveness. If someone shows remorse and makes a significant effort to make things right, then you could argue that they deserve to be forgiven. i.e. if you backed over the neighbor's hand-crafted fence by mistake, but then completely rebuilt it yourself to a high standard, then I think you're worthy of being forgiven.

I think the point is, though, that someone doesn't have to deserve forgiveness in order for you to give it. Forgiving takes a burden off of you. I think even if the person you are forgiving is dead, you will feel better after you've forgiven them, and in that case it obviously has nothing to do with them.

WRT this, I kind of missed this and I apologize because it is significant:

Originally Posted By: Crazyville
I don't think you understand the problem. H isn't leaving me for her, because that's not a simple choice. He's M'd, she's M'd, lives in a different state, etc. My problem is wrapping my head around knowing that given the option to turn back time, he would choose to be with her, and that he carries that in his head with him, TODAY. I can't be good enough to offset fantasy. No one can. So your question really becomes, am I prepared to do what it takes to be the SECOND BEST option for H? I can answer that I am at least capable, if not prepared at this very moment (just being honest, please don't chew me up.) What about MY part? Beyond what I "do," I don't know what to "be." This doesn't fit into my definition of what M is supposed to look like. So, fine, I redefine it. To what? What is the GOAL?


That's pretty big right? I find it odd that it didn't come up until page 8 or so of part 3 of your thread.

Just so I understand:

1) How long ago did you learn about this?

2) How much does it bother you? Is this an elephant in the room, or just one more thing on the pile? If eating food off your plate is an "8" on the making CV feel bad scale, where does this fantasy of H's rank?

I don't want to minimize this at all -- having H tell you that he would prefer someone else is very hurtful, it really hurts your self-esteem and feelings of worth. There is a big spectrum here however:

BAD END: On the bad end of the spectrum OW is the first thing that H thinks about when he wakes up in the morning. He looks forward to his next interaction with OW all day and can't keep himself away. Talking to OW really makes him feel good, he feels he can tell her things he can't tell anyone else. He texts, e-mails and IM's with her multiple times per day. They tell each other they love each other and discuss wanting to go on vacation together, etc. etc. Over the course of the month, he might log 40-50 hours on the phone with her in secret, and hundreds of messages. You're not really on his radar at all, except as a source of guilt, and a barrier to his happiness with OW.

LESS BAD END: On the other end of the spectrum, H is feeling badly about himself and your M. He doesn't feel he's good enough for you and can't make you happy. He happens to reconnect with a former GF on FB and they have a nice conversation. It rekindles in him happier feelings about himself. Because she's nice to him he feels worthy. It really doesn't have much to do with OW at all other than the fact that the attention and kindness make him feel better about himself. At some point, he mentions it to you, lets you find out, etc. in the hope that it will make you jealous and improve things between you by increasing your effort, or it will hurt you which will make him feel better because he'll see that you still want him / love him. On this end of the scale, it's not about OW at all, it's about the two of you exclusively.

Where do you think H is on this spectrum? I would *guess* he's more toward the good end than the bad one, but what do you think?

You can't compete with fantasy, no one can. What H may be "selling" to OW is not something he would be able to deliver longer term, nor would he necessarily want to. He's pursuing getting his needs met, so he's dangling emotional bait. I'm not talking about sexual needs, just the need to feel wanted, needed and worthy. If he doesn't feel that way with you, then he's a drowning man who is going to grab onto any lifeboat that happens to pass by.

Tell me more about where you think he is on the spectrum and how badly it really bothers you or not.

I really don't think you're second choice, nor should you feel that way. You are the incumbent, you have "pole position". This may just be another tool in H's distancing arsenal.

Accuray
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 05:18 PM
Um, CV, if you're saying that you've forgiven H and that forgiveness has nothing to do with your problems, I call major BS. The hate, anger, disdain radiate. You've not forgiven him. (This, BTW, is not a judgment, it is a descriptive statement.)

But, if you're saying that you are afraid to forgive because you don't know what to do next, I believe that. This is why I wrote: "Forgiveness involves moving forward, it does not involve moving forward blindly. Forgiveness is not weak, but comes from a place of personal strength and compassion.

But you seem to feel that holding onto bitterness, anger, and disdain is the only thing to do without saying "it's ok to treat me like crap.""

So, what do you do with the knowledge if you forgive? You base your current and future choices with that knowledge. What do you do if you know H is gay? Well, evaluate your choices:

(1) Stay with H and change nothing.
(2) Stay with H and change the context of the R to an open M or something that better fulfills both of your needs.
(3) D but keep H in your life as a dear family friend.
(4) D and exclude H from your life moving forward.

Any of the above choices could be made from a place motivated by what works best for you from what you want out of your life. Any of those choices could be made even if you fully forgive H. Any of those choices can be made without anger and hate, without be driven by fear.

So, suppose you were to forgive H for making you feel 2nd best.

BTW, the ranking here is NOT what is important. Even if there were no EA, H would be unhappy in the M TOO. Like I said, an M that is so bad for the WAS is just as bad for the LBS, they just aren't to the point of acceptance/acknowledging that. Moreover, the WAS/LBS dynamic makes the LBS blind to their own pain from earlier in the M for quite some time. That is, the LBS loses touch with how unhappy they were in the M while the WAS magnifies how unhappy they were in the M. This is standard, utterly predictable. They swing to the extremes in their view of the M and slowly both generally get a more realistic perspective. Though, this may involve a swing to the pendulum back and forth many times.

So, anyway, the real question in many ways is will you forgive H for not being content with you as a W? Well, will he forgive you with not being content with him as an H? You are both in very similar situations, you are living in an M that you may or may not want to preserve with a spouse with whom you are discontent who you know is not happy with you. Then, if the answer is yes, you will forgive H, then we are back to...

What do you do after you forgive H for making you feel 2nd best, but you continue to believe that (1) he did feel you were second best and (2) he still does feel you are second best. Well, you assess your choices.

(1) Stay with H and change nothing.
(2) Stay with H and change the context of the R and see if it can become a healthy, vibrant, loving, passionate M that works for both of you.
(3) D but keep H in your life as a dear family friend.
(4) D and exclude H from your life moving forward.

Me, I'd scratch (1) off the list immediately. I'd also scratch (3) off the list -- based on my experience and observation of others, this "we'll always be the best friends" stage is simply a stage of unproductive denial. We want our spouses as romantic partners, not as friends. But whatever. That would leave me with (2) and (4).

I would choose (2), but not in an unconditional never look back way. Rather, I'd choose (2) freely and contingently. I would OWN my choice to see if the M can be what I WANT in the future and I would OWN the costs and risks as one's I chose to accept because of the possible benefits to MYSELF. I would set a time to check-in with MYSELF to see if I wanted to continue to try, maybe 6 months, and then during that 6 months I would work on myself to become the partner I would want to be in ANY relationship. A partner who is good to herself and partner, who is understanding, tolerant, strong, independent, direct, open, communicative, supportive, respectful, forgiving, loving, passionate, etc... Part of this might even include sharing with H: "H, I have felt 2nd best for some time. I still feel that way. It hurts beyond all imagining. I can't tell how much is because of myself, and how much is based on your true feelings about me. I am working my best on forgiving you for the EA, it is a process and I get scared. I understand that we both contributed to problems in our R that made EA an appealing option for you. I am so sorry for both of us that we reached that point. But, moving forward, feeling 2nd best is not an option for me. I'm looking at how much that is within me. But I also need you to know that for me to move forward I have to be your first choice now. If later you decide this M doesn't work and you want to move on, that's really OK. But, while we're still exploring making this M work together, it just has to be us. Right now, neither of us knows what we'll want 6 months from now. Right now, I know I want to try, but only with a partner whose first choice is to try with me." And yes, I know, you couldn't say that at all, or all at once. Or it doesn't reflect exactly how you feel, blah blah blah. Resist your excuses. Adjust the message. Do it in bits and pieces. Use email. Whatever.

Then, at the end of the 6 months, I would check-in with myself: Based on where I am at that point, do I choose (2) again or move to (4) or something else I hadn't yet considered.

And, back again to you and your critical parents. You didn't respond directly to my last post. You do get that this whole second best thing is ALL wrapped up with your parents CONSTANTLY sending you that message growing up, which they did according to your very own words.

Until you can feel better than second best (without the false security of being perfect which is never safely in one's grasp), NO ONE will make you feel better than second best in your life. H really doesn't have much of a chance of succeeding then. But, once you conquer your critical inner voice here (did you read that book?), then H would have a chance to treat you in a way in which you feel like his top choice. If he doesn't, well, you probably wouldn't stay because you conquered your critical inner voice that kept you stuck in that sort of R.
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 05:24 PM
BTW, the critical inner voice and lifetrap books are BOTH about solutions in the present to move forward -- not Freudian psychoanalysis, for instance. But, to move forward, you must first identify your big roadblocks.
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 05:34 PM
Last thing... Just one sentence in particular from Sandi to not lose track of... "The place that may be different for you and me is that I had to reach a place where I felt humility. "

She puts this more tactfully than I usually do. I generally tell people to "drop the arrogance." But the same message is important to anyone struggling in their lives, in any way for that matter.

(1) We are far less perfect than we think, even if we don't think we are perfect. We are all flawed human beings that experience deep pain.

(2) We know far less about others than we think we know.

(3) Much of what we actively dislike in others is really all about ourselves and our own pain.

(4) Most things that people do that hurt us really aren't about us, but about their own pain.

This amounts to finding oneself in a position in which we are not in a position to judge others so much, we don't assume we know their motivations or what they are capable of. We question ourselves when we find ourselves being hostile and critical toward others -- what is it in ourselves that provokes that reaction? And, we try not to take things personally when others trespass against us, because they almost never mean to do so. And, NONE of this means that we must choose to accept treatment that we find unacceptable.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 05:51 PM
I want to offer a little help on how to "be" in this process, on your road to the future.

The feeling of being overwhelmed by the feedback you are getting here, what is happening is you (this is natural for anyone, btw) hitting this flow of thoughts and backing up from it. Stepping back to process it before taking another step.

That is fine. That is OK.

I have seen so many major breakthroughs happen in the shortest period of time when people step into this and fully immerse themselves in it and operate in this chaos. It is scary, but we are not only capable of doing it, we are capable of coming out the other side much stronger and better for it.

Making choices in the midst of this chaos is a powerful skill that anyone can benefit from.

Do your best not to dwell on the little dissections of your comments and thoughts. It's just feedback. Think of it as your inner voice giving you your options, on the fly, as you make choices and step forward.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville
The action is forgivable, especially when it doesn't happen again.


This absolutely is the difficult part of really owning forgiveness. Not qualifying forgiveness.

Qualifying forgiveness by saying that it is easier to forgive when (we know) it doesn't happen again is where many people get stuck. It is that point when we choose a path of score keeping vs. choosing to accept that it WILL happen again and knowing that we will forgive, again (for the exact same action).

Do you see the difference between how people can end up making forgiveness about expectations of others vs. making forgiveness unconditional and selfless?
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 06:09 PM
Kaffee,

I agree that forgiveness can't be contingent on whether future conditions are satisfied. I'm not sure if we forgive x at one time we commit ourselves to always forgiving x, but maybe.

But what is important is to distinguish forgiveness from forgetting data upon which to base one's own autonomous choices.

We recognize and accept people's flaws. We forgive them for them. But we also must make our choices based upon a recognition of those flaws.

My h is frequently egregiously late, he has been his whole life. I forgive him repeatedly. But sometimes I stop to consider how this will affect my future choices? Will I not rely on him to be on time in x circumstance? Will I depart for event x without waiting for him? I don't ignore the fact that he has been late frequently in my choices simply because I forgive him. That would be unkind to myself, unwise, and give rise to a lot of resentment. Rather I have to own my choices as ones I freely choose while knowing full well that there is a good chance h will run late. My choice.
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 06:50 PM
Accuray, thanks for the supportive words. I do very much appreciate this place as an option for feedback that I can't get from reading books. I'm trying to sort out what I can use and what I can't.

I did have to laugh at your comment that I didn't bring up H's EA until p8 of part 3, when everyone else is claiming that I bring up H's actions too much. smile

I found out about the EA probably 5 or 6 years ago. You're right in that H is more toward the "less bad end," with a few exceptions leaning more toward the "more bad end." I'm not sure how those would factor in and it probably isn't relevant. As far as how I rate it, eating food off my plate is a 2, this fantasy he has is an 11.

BTW, when I relate instances such as this, it might come off as angry, but what I'm feeling is just sadness. I feel incredible sadness at the loss of what I once thought I had. I can sit quietly in my corner and mourn, without anger and bitterness. But poking at it will result in anger and all sorts of other unpleasantness.

Part of my difficulty with his EA is my own inability to relate. I dated guys, some for a significant length of time, some I would even say I was in love with. None of them are someone I wish I had married. I heard a cute line once that said, "They call it a break-up for a reason, because it's BROKEN!"

I also see the problems this fantasy creates in a M. My BFF is still pining for her HS sweetheart. Every time she has an issue with her H, she says she wishes she would have followed her ex out to California, and adds in a few descriptive sentences about what her imagined life would look like right now. I try to talk her down but it doesn't change her feelings about him. I see what that comparison does to their M. Her H will never be good enough, because he's human and her ex is fantasy. At the same time, she isn't rubbing her H's nose in it, she doesn't say anything about it. She just harbors it.

Here's my issue. I have an image of what M is supposed to look like. I can't squeeze this reality into my image. I don't know how to move forward with this. I accept that it's not going to change; it's already been almost 40 years. He isn't still talking to her (that I know of, anyway) so there's nothing to address there.

There's actually an option 5. Stay in the M and make the best of it, realizing it will likely never become a healthy, vibrant, loving, passionate M as I envisioned, but something that is at least acceptable and primarily conflict-free. I'm having a difficult time defining that, at least with any enthusiasm. I think this is probably where you and I can relate, Accuray. I'm sure your R is not as you envisioned. I know you've struggled for some time with whether or not you can do this long term. I'm sure it saddens you greatly, even if you choose to accept it. Expecting it to be different would be foolish and only result in heartache for you.

When you take the chocolate chips out of chocolate chip cookies, they aren't chocolate chip cookies anymore. So what are they? They are certainly edible, but will you still enjoy eating them?
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 07:39 PM
Look, you've really really got to read those two books. Every post you make, every frequent callback to perceived slights of other posters, each insistence on showing how we are flawed in our reasoning -- these things all confirm to me that you have a big monster roadblock between you and a better life no matter what direction it takes. Working on that part of yourself is independent of H.

As for the cookies, assuming you KNOW how they will turn out is part of the arrogance. Have an open mind, don't try to decide now if how you believe things might be in a year will be ok then. First you don't know how things will be. Second, you don't know how you would feel about them even if they turn out as imagined.

Quit planning your life on unknown future contingencies so much. Make a plan for 6 months. Then reassess.
Posted By: Accuray Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 07:46 PM
I hear you. That nagging doubt about being #2 is really you thinking you're not good enough though. If you were convinced you were good enough then you wouldn't be threatened by H's fantasy, you'd either know you were better than the fantasy woman, or you'd know it was H's issue and not yours and it wouldn't bother you at all.

I also hear you about the sadness.

Yes, I struggled for years to get more affection from W. Eventually I concluded that she just didn't love me. I was angry at her for marrying me in the first place. I thought she married me because I was "good enough" versus someone she was passionate about, and I felt that had prevented me from marrying someone with whom I could have been truly happy. I didn't voice any of this, but it fueled both quiet resentment as well as convinced me that I wasn't good enough. Nothing I did could get an affectionate response from W, so I must not be good enough.

Maybe as a defense mechanism I then convinced myself that W was incapable of being loving with anyone. Maybe it wasn't me, maybe she was just depressed and therefore incapable of happiness. That formed a kind of protective shell for me for several years.

When she then had the EA and I saw all the emotion, enthusiasm and love she lavished on OM, how she sought to meet up with him, go for walks, planned a picnic at the beach, etc., it was very hard. It took away my conclusion that my W was "just an unloving person" and doubled-down on the "you're not good enough". I then got the "oh, she's capable of it alright, you just don't do that for her"

MC told me that what W was bringing to the table in that EA is not who she is, that I have the real W. That she would not be capable of sustaining that, nor would she be happy if she tried. He said that an affair is all about two people telling each other how wonderful they are -- and that is of course unsustainable. Sooner or later that glass is going to break. W says she realized that while she was in it -- that what she was living was not real, but it felt really good. She says she knew it wasn't going anywhere, and she had no illusions about a long term relationship with OM. That said, she was no less crushed and angry when he chose to end it.

One of my best learnings through this is that I am good enough, and it's my job to convince myself of that. It's not W's job to tell me that I'm worthy or show me that I'm worthy, it's my job to BE worthy, and at that point I don't care if W appreciates that or not.

I discovered the EA through snooping, and for a long time thereafter I was addicted to snooping. I eventually decided that snooping is a defensive life, and I didn't want to live it. My current attitude is that if W wants to pursue another EA (or PA), then go for it. It's a reflection on her, not me. I *know* I'm a good husband and a good father. My W's issues with me are more a reflection of her issues than places I fall short.

The challenge, however, is that it's always been important for me to be acknowledged, and to feel wanted and needed. W doesn't naturally do that. Some of the things that W says or does continues to prey upon this weakness of mine, not necessarily through any fault of her own. What I have learned, and am still learning, is that my challenge in this relationship is not to let that bother me, and to find comfort in my own successes.

I'm a work in progress for sure but I "get it" now. I'm not worried about competing with the fantasy, and if W wants to pursue one, have at it, I'm gone -- and I have no doubts that I can find someone who appreciates what I bring to the table.

Accuray
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 07:53 PM
Am I arrogant or thinking I'm not good enough? I'm hearing both. Those seem contradictory.
Posted By: InAPickle Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 08:11 PM
Originally Posted By: Crazyville
It doesn't help me with how to go forward in a R when the new (forgiven) information completely redefines the R.


It sounds like you think you're between a rock and a hard place?
Give up or settle for less than you want and need?

Some of the other posters have listed scenarios, and I wouldn't blame you for feeling like the best choice is "none of the above." Nobody on this board wants to return to a troubled R. I think we all would prefer something new, either with or without our S, but not the old BS.

But I am not addressing either fantasy or reality. I believe this discussion is about your feelings. You cannot easily brush the "knowledge" aside and carry on, and neither can I. I have EA/PA issues to deal with myself.

There has to be healing, and you know, you can't hurry up healing. The thing is the individuals have to heal before the R can, otherwise you risk getting back the old troubled R. That's why we change and move forward and get on the mend. We have to have that attitude.

I would never expect you to "settle" for a M or R you do not desire out of fear of some unknown future. Reminds me of something 25 said on another thread. Her H didn't begin to wake up, until she was living happily "with or without" him.

Forgiveness is a step toward self healing, but it is not quick and easy. It comes from a place of inner peace and inner joy. That's where you have to go.

You have bounderies. You demand exclusivity. Nothing wrong with that. But if you don't get that, can you imagine living happily "with or without" him? Peace and joy. Attitude.

Hugs Pic
Posted By: adinva Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 08:12 PM
Why don't you tell us the answer to your question.

Your phrasing just there sounded aggressive, and was a tactic my H often used to shut down a conversation he wanted to avoid. Find a nitpicky thing to deflect the point and go on the offensive.

Why not take a look through your own words and see if any of them looked arrogant to you? And see if there were also any that suggested you have trouble with thinking you're not good enough. One can be a mask for the other. But we don't know you that well. Why not digest what was said for a while to absorb what value you can find in it before arguing with it?
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 08:29 PM
Well on that note, I think I'm going to bow out for awhile. Something is coming across in my posts that is being interpreted negatively that isn't there. After I typed that last post, I went to the foyer, sat on the floor in the sun and sobbed because I don't understand. Hardly passive-aggressive.

So I thank you all for your investment in me. I have been listening, so if anyone wants to say anything to me, I will read it. But I probably won't respond, not until I can figure out a way to do so where it isn't misinterpreted.

Besides, I've got enough books to read to keep me busy for a month.

Thanks again, really!
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 08:42 PM
Cv, I think if you read what I wrote about arrogance, it is easy to see that the kind of arrogance of which i spoke and feeling 2nd best are orthogonal.

Btw, your response is another case of a deflective facile but poorly aimed counterargument. It is as Advina suggests, avoidance via nitpicking, even if the nitpicking is off-target.

Look, I'm pretty much done here. I've offered you as much as I can. My hope is that it will trickle in, even as I irk you now. I think you are a person in deep pain. It is perfectly normal to have such strong defenses against that which causes you pain. I get it. It doesn't make you a bad person. But it will keep you stuck. You can take my advice and work through those two books, or not. If you do, then either I'm right and your life will blossom with new joys, possibilities, hope, freedom from your own growth, or it won't. There is precisely one way to find out.

Advina, asking CV why she can't stop deflecting is like asking an LBS why they can't stop pursuing the WAS. It is currently the beat defense against further pain. The key in both cases is to find a different path, which is itself painfully hard and scary.

And, CV and Advina, notice that Advina's heightened concern in this case is about her-- it struck a nerve because if her own pain in her marriage. Really, it is a huge thing when we can look at things that get our dander up to learn about our own pain.

Apologies for the "I shall explain the world" tone above, but I have weak tact on the best days, and I'm in a rush on a phone.

Trust that I'm coming from a place of compassion and concern. You're a good person, and I want to see you find more joy that is more easily within your grasp than you think.
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 08:55 PM
So, here's another choice for the woman who learns her husband is gay:

(6) Choose to shelve questions about the M for 6 months, then take the space to work on self to get to a place in which fear and pain aren't driving one's choices, but freedom and genuine love and compassion for oneself are. Then, in 6 months reassess.
Posted By: Accuray Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 09:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Crazyville
Well on that note, I think I'm going to bow out for awhile. Something is coming across in my posts that is being interpreted negatively that isn't there. After I typed that last post, I went to the foyer, sat on the floor in the sun and sobbed because I don't understand. Hardly passive-aggressive.


I've been there. Sometimes you get some harsh feedback that just isn't on the money, and nothing you do can convince people they are off base.

Other times you're not ready to hear what people are telling you because you haven't gotten that far yet in your own journey.

Sometimes those two are happening at the same time.

When we react strongly it's either because someone has hit a nerve we don't want to face, OR they are entirely off base and it's not worth continuing down that path.

Quite frankly you pushed me quite a bit on my own sitch, at times I was angry, but I appreciated that you made me think.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville
Am I arrogant or thinking I'm not good enough? I'm hearing both. Those seem contradictory.


Not at all. Arrogance is borne of insecurity, so the two would go hand-in-hand. Arrogance is overcompensating for feeling unworthy.

FWIW, I don't think you're arrogant, I think you are hurting, and you have strong convictions and I don't view those two as being the same as arrogant. You came to this board quite sure that you were the victim and H the oppressor, and instead of getting support for that perspective and a pat on the back, you've been hearing that it's more about you than you would like to admit.

Pretend everyone that's posting to you is right. If you're not ready to deal with that, then they're not helping you. I hear that your main request is "how do I make this marriage less painful" and the answer you seem to be receiving is that you need to change yourself, and not in a trivial way, which sux because you don't think you've done anything wrong!

I can completely see that is heaping condemnation on top of a base of deep pain. That's why I tried to get you talking about what makes you happy. That's another path out of here BTW.

From my perspective, one path is confronting your weaknesses and issues head-on and muscling through them.

Another path is deciding to accept yourself for who you are, and to have no regrets about the person you've become.

The final path is focusing on what makes you happy and pursuing that. If you're able to achieve that happiness, then the weaknesses and issues may take care of themselves and the acceptance will come.

Any path will have limitations and obstacles that need to be overcome, and excuses to be evaluated and discarded. You're not happy where you are now, you know that. Which way do *you* want to move forward?

My biggest fear for you is that you leave H, find another man who initially seems wonderful, and over time you start to unconsciously seek ways he has slighted you and start to focus on those until you're right back here.

One of the books I read, I think "After the Affair" talked about the fact that everyone is mistreated in some way as a child. No parents are perfect. That mistreatment becomes your "place of comfort" because you have learned how to cope with it over the course of years. Therefore, when you get married, you are attracted to people who put you in your place of comfort. If you were never good enough to your parents, then you aren't going to value someone who puts you on a pedestal. That relationship won't be challenging or fulfilling for you, and you'll wonder what's wrong with the other person to make you feel that way. You'll be attracted to the person who makes you feel unworthy, and therefore your patterns will continue to repeat.

Another thing I read is that you train people how to treat you. Put another way, if people treat you a certain way it's because you accept it and have reinforced that it's ok. If you don't respond well to praise, but take action in response to criticism, then you train people to criticize you when they want something from you.

Really, through everything I've read, it all comes back to you. Your situation is one you've created. If you see that, then you're on the path to changing it.

It will break my heart if you stay where you are. Please keep reading, keep thinking and evaluating, and check back in when you feel better.

Accuray
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 09:48 PM
"When we react strongly it's either because someone has hit a nerve we don't want to face, OR they are entirely off base and it's not worth continuing down that path."

Maybe, but very likely not. Let me try these:

"Accuray, your wife doesn't enjoy sex because you are gay."

"Accuray, your wife doesn't enjoy sex because you don't eat vegetables."

"Accuray, your wife doesn't enjoy sex because you beat her."

Now, I'm pretty sure that you'd deny all these, and strongly deny the last. But none would really bother you--they would be comments from some stranger hopefully intended to help but off the mark. It would be a matter of fact nope that's not it. When things GET to us, it is time to pay attention.

If someone kept posting about your hatred of veggies, it might annoy you, but it wouldn't GET to you.
Posted By: Accuray Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 09:52 PM
Right, I agree Oldtimer. I was just reflecting that I have "reacted strongly" when people were off base. If you wrote me five long posts about the fact that my W didn't like sex because I was gay and am not admitting it, eventually it WILL get to me because you're not giving up and are effectively telling everyone why you think I'm gay over and over again. Just because I react strongly to that doesn't mean I'm gay.

It's a silly argument anyway because I agree with you, and I think your feedback to CV has been valuable. I would expect that some of it is right on target, and some maybe less so, but all valuable.

Accuray
Posted By: mimivac Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 09:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Crazyville
Am I arrogant or thinking I'm not good enough? I'm hearing both. Those seem contradictory.


Actually, they may not be. I am often both and believe that they are two sides of the same coin. When I am feeling less than and not good enough, I often over-react or act out aggressively to overcompensate for the fact that I don't feel good about myself. When I am at peace with myself, I don't need to be either. This seems like a common enough human theme and a good topic for IC --at least it was for me.

Mimi
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/05/12 10:33 PM
Ah, but first you'd simply say: nope not gay, that's for sure.

CV has not said: nope don't have a problem with not feeling good enough, nope I'm not a perfectionist. Rather, she confirms and then reverses, or simply deflects.

As a master of deflection via argument myself, it is easy to see. Indeed, I used the same strategy in my previous M in which I was hypercritical of XH to avoid looking at myself because it hurt too much. If one has reasonably good argumentative skills, it is easy to stomp a discussion out with argumentative slight of hand.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/06/12 01:56 AM
Originally Posted By: oldtimer
Kaffee,

I agree that forgiveness can't be contingent on whether future conditions are satisfied. I'm not sure if we forgive x at one time we commit ourselves to always forgiving x, but maybe.

But what is important is to distinguish forgiveness from forgetting data upon which to base one's own autonomous choices.


Absolutely, OT. One should never forget, that still does not mean we do not forgive.

For example, even in your examples above with choices 1 through 4, even if we choose #4 to D and not be "friends" with our Xs, I believe it is still important to both remember AND forgive. Just from a perspective of it's value to us.
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/06/12 06:17 AM
Yes, I agree.
Posted By: adinva Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/06/12 12:38 PM
CV, I came to this site looking for answers and got questions instead. Some of them were pretty tough and painful. I was trying to help you the way I've been helped here.

Think of all of us DBers as a bunch of people scrambling up a very difficult mountain and we're reaching hands across the space to help and get help from one another. Some like OT and MLC are way ahead of us and are reaching down to pull others along. Some who've just arrived are mainly reaching up so they can get a foothold. Others are reaching left and right to hold the hands that are at the same point in their journey.

I haven't saved my marriage or myself, and I'm in no position to know exactly how to help you. I reach out with what I've learned in my situation and it's as much to reinforce what I've learned as it is to share it. OT saw that.

Being here takes courage and humility. There aren't any easy answers. You're in a ton of pain, I know that and hurt for you.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/06/12 12:46 PM
((CV)) don't give up on us. I know how this feels. It's overwhelming for me to grasp all this information and I'm speaking strictly from my personal stitch.

You are correct in saying that forgiveness doesn't make the R right. The act of forgiving didn't fix it. For me, I had to do it before I could proceed in a MR with my H. It was a cleansing for me. And, since I had so many years of bad feelings collected in my mind & heart, there would have been no use in attempting R without my "cleansing". I had tried that too many times before, or thought I had. Truth was, I had not gone deep enough to get that bottom layer of grime from the very first year of m. There was no way I could operate or heal effectively without washing it out.

So, what steps did I take, or what did I do afterward? Well, at first, I did several things that's on that list of 180's that gets passed to newcomers a lot... smile Yes, I wrote it from the VP of the WAS, but there were still a lot of those 180's I applied myself. I hope that doesn't confuse anyone. I was a healing WAW. I was like CV and didn't know exactly what came next! Where were the steps?

Just b/c I was able to finally forgive my H, and I got all that bitterness out, I did not immediately have a waterfall of loving feelings come blasting into my heart. It would have been nice, but it didn't happen for me. I had to still have some space (used it mostly on the DB board), and I had to have time to get stronger. That healing process is not for the LBS only. I think he was not ready for me to fall all over him. He needed some time to deal with his side of the pain and heal also. Some couples may feel they have to be glued to each others hip to heal, but my H and I aren't that way. It came in stages or steps, as we were able to move forward, and as we moved forward the " Y " in the road eventually became one lane again.

I started to make a conscious effort to show respect to him. In the past, I felt he didn't deserve my respect b/c he didn't live up to my expectations. It was a big problem. I learned from people here and I began to open my eyes and heart and see all the areas I could respect him. It was a starting point.

I took a conscious effort to speak with a nice tone of voice (a respectful way) when speaking to him. I made an effort to not make facial expressions that spoke a different language from my words. (That always bothered him a lot.)

I made a conscious effort to see the good in him and the things he does. I made an effort to remember why I fell in love with him (thanks to this board).

Little steps at a time went on for a long time and ever so slowly my feelings for him began to change.

Whoa......I just looked at the clock and I'm late for work. Got to run!
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/06/12 04:57 PM
How do you know when you've forgiven someone?

How do you know that you haven't?
Posted By: tenbusrider Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/06/12 05:11 PM
I would say that you know when it no longer bothers you. But that starts with making the conscious decision to not let whatever needs forgiveness bother you any longer. It might still bother you for a while, but like everything else we have to work on in these situations, it takes time.

If you've made the decision to try and forgive, in a way, you already have. It might help to vocalize that you're forgiving them. If you're worried about something happening again, vocalize that as well.
Posted By: Cyrena Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/06/12 05:35 PM
You know you've forgiven someone when you're no longer expending any energy (anger, resentment, hurt, sadness, etc etc) on the offense. You feel freed, positive, and filled with far more energy to make positive changes.

You know you haven't forgiven them if the offense is still eating away at you, sapping your energy, creating negative thoughts, and leaving you feeling hopeless about the possibility of change.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 12:02 PM
I don't know what happened! I spent an hour last night on another wordy post and could have sworn I saw it after submit button was keyed. Argh!!
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 03:08 PM
How about this: you've forgiven someone for X when your choices, actions, treatment of him is no longer about the pain X caused you. There are no thoughts of teaching him a lesson, being withholding, no worries about him thinking you were over it, no thoughts of revenge, no tit for tat, no resentment, no flinching from him as the source of the pain. The PAIN itself is no longer shaping your choices.

There might still be lingering sadness, lingering pain. But, the current and future R with the person is not about the pain. You might even begin to look at how experiencing the pain enriched your life in some unexpected way -- not to justify X, but to accept it and see how sometimes the worst things can help us move forward.

Of course, the fact that X happened may inform your future choices, but in a matter-of-fact kind of way.

In my case: Hey H, I'll plan to go to event Z on my own tonight. If you're here when I leave at 7, we can go together which would be great :-)

In your case: Hey H, I still feel insecure about your R with OW. I want us to work on rebuilding trust. I've been looking at how to do this and transparency is an important part of it.
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 08:07 PM
Quick question....

In an effort to give my H some things to do to make him feel like a good provider, I gave him two "house" issues yesterday. One was a hose that split presumably with the winter freeze (surprising, since we hardly had a winter.) The second is a piece of siding that has blown loose with all the wind we're having right not. Both of these are issues that I could have immediately dealt with, but opted to set them aside and do others things so that I would have something to ask H to do. I just put it back and sort of tucked it in.

It could have been dealt with yesterday by H, because even after dark there's a streetlamp right there shining on it. But he asked to wait until today in the daylight, and I said sure. Today it has blown loose again. I can year it flapping against the outside of the house. I'm concerned that it's going to rip off altogether, possibly taking some other pieces with it. I'm trying to "sit on my hands" and not jump to fix it. If I don't, it will possibly be worse by the time he gets to it.

Do I go out and secure it myself? (H is at work and can't fix it right now.) Or do I let it go and let him deal with it regardless?

And then, preemptively, when he comes to me and asks me how I think he should fix it, should I just tell him I'm sure he'll figure it out and not jump in? Or do I tell him (as if I'm some siding expert, which I'm not.)
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 08:23 PM
CV, these are things that I would label as "Honey Do's." The list often grows long before it starts to grow short only to be added to once again. Your H needs to be able to get to these chores in his own time, not yours, thus the list.

Here's an idea. If the flapping siding is really bugging you, secure it in the most obvious way possible (duct tape come to mind). This way you temporarily solved the immediate concern without preempting your H's ability to complete the tasks correctly as he has said he would do.

There is an old I Love Lucy episode where Lucy wants Ricky to build a BBQ grill in the back yard and he keeps putting it off. So one day Lucy and Ethel decide they'd start it in the hopes that Ricky and Fred would be so appalled by their W's notion that they could do a "mans job" that they would take over and everyone would be happy. Of course a lot of hilarity ensues but I think you get my point.

Do what you need to do, but just enough to solve your immediate concern while letting your H follow through as you are expecting him to do.
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 08:55 PM
Okay, I like that.

If this is just a "honeydo" item, am I off-base? I'm trying to apply the advice given in regards to the furnace/hot water heater/taxes/dish washing/etc. and giving H something to do rather than just handling it myself, in an effort to make him feel "needed."
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 09:18 PM
The hose and siding sound like honeydo's to me. Major repairs might also fall under that heading but they take on a little bit more importance. Somewhere there is a balance.

Maybe a compromise where both of you feel valued and heard is to really make a honeydo list, complete with fancy title and lettering and hang it in a prominent location like a calendar so you can easily add to it and cross out items as they get completed.

Then maybe come to an understanding with your H along the lines of....

H, as you or I come across things that need to get done around the house, I thought we could add the items to this fancy honeydo list that I created so we can keep track. If I have time to get some of the things done, I'll cross them off as I complete them. And the same for you. I think it wold be a fun way to keep track of these things and also give us both a sense of accomplishment when things get crossed off the list. What do you think?

Now if he buys into this you have to be careful not to do any score keeping. Because that will backfire and you will also become resentful because I get the sense that you'd just like to get every item crossed off the list, and you would! Right?

Just remember if you at least have the list it makes it difficult for your H to say I didn't know or I forgot. Make it part of your normal household routine. Just try not to get impatient.

Here's an example: My W was harping (yes harping) on me to change out a light bulb in my son's bedroom closet. To me that was an extremely low priority item considering everything else I had to do. The longer it took me to get that task completed, the more pissed she got.

But to my mind, if it was that important, then do it yourself or wait until I got around to doing it. Of course because it was such a low priority item, I forgot about it a bunch of times --- this is where a honeydo list would have been helpful for me as well.

See I am learning right along with you! smile
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 09:44 PM
Will that do it for HIM? Make him feel like he has value? Is it possible that it will have the opposite effect, in making him feel inadequate because I'm knocking things off the list right and left and he's not? (simply because I am more motivated than him, plus work is really slow right now so I have more opportunity.) I don't want to go backwards.

We already have a "things to do" list. Some things have been on there for years. This siding (and the furnace, hot water heater and taxes) have an external priority to them. I was told that maybe I needed to let him handle those things in order to "Give H a chance to shine." I was trying to do that with the siding issue and the hose, but I'm not sure I have it right.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 09:56 PM
You know, it is only my opinion so take it for what it is worth. How you manage it I think will determine how your H feels about his value/worth in the equation.

If you start knocking off items left and right, then I think this will not work. Why not pace yourself. You do one thing, then wait for him to do one thing, then you do one thing then he does one thing. Take time to celebrate together when long lingering items get accomplished, (I know it sounds corny, but maybe give that a try).

Maybe ask him to show you how to do something, even if you already have an idea how it is done. Let him lead you instead of vise versa.

Remember timing is everything! MWD talks about how her H needs time to "process" and "reflect" before acting or making a decision. When she harps on him before he has had his time to process, it always backfires.

I think for you CV, there is probably some middle ground that will work for you and your H. Engage him in the process but take it slow and only in baby steps if you have concerns about going backwards.

Hope this helps.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 09:57 PM
Originally Posted By: Crazyville
...and giving H something to do rather than just handling it myself, in an effort to make him feel "needed."


I'm going out on a limb here to say that more than feeling needed, that he wants to feel love and that he is contributing in a way you appreciate.

Please let him know when he does something from the list that you love him and appreciate him doing that. Whether it's off the list or anything in general.

Praise the positive rather than punishing the negative.
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 10:19 PM
Quote:
Praise the positive rather than punishing the negative.

Got that! There has not been a negative thing come from my mouth in a week. And I'm watching for the positives, always.
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 10:27 PM
Quote:
But to my mind, if it was that important, then do it yourself or wait until I got around to doing it.

2TP, would it have been a problem for you if your W had, in fact, just done it herself? I got the distinct impression from earlier posts that that's a bad thing. Also, in my sitch, it has resulted in me eventually just doing all of it myself, and finding I don't really have a "need" for H for much of anything. Therefore, he doesn't feel needed. Catch22.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 10:35 PM
In this particular instance, no. Changing a light bulb is not something that I view as hyper technical. I eventually changed the bulb but her harping on "that" really was getting on my nerves. Especially since we had so many more important things to worry about.

Had we had a honeydo list - we didn't - I would have probably gotten to it much sooner than I did. As I said, I did forget about it a few times.

Again CV, I think it is all a balance.
Posted By: Accuray Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 10:37 PM
"How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It" goes into this. I believe they give the example where there was a broken step that had been on the Honeydo list forever. Eventually the W just told the H she was going to fix it, asked where the tools were etc. She started to fix it and he came out to observe and just ended up taking over and doing a good job of it. I believe their point was that's a better approach than nagging, which doesn't seem to be an issue for you.

It may work in this example too. Tell H you plan to fix the shingle, ask him what tools and materials you'll need. Tell him you're going to go for it on Sunday or something. If he chooses to jump on it before then great. If Sunday rolls around and he hasn't done anything, then feel free to address it however you want in terms of fixing it yourself.

In terms of setting expectations, if W asks me to fix something and I can tell she just doesn't care that much about it, I'm a lot less motivated than if it's something that's really bothering her. If I know it's important, I'm more likely to jump on it.

Accuray
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 10:46 PM
Originally Posted By: Accuray
In terms of setting expectations, if W asks me to fix something and I can tell she just doesn't care that much about it, I'm a lot less motivated than if it's something that's really bothering her. If I know it's important, I'm more likely to jump on it.


Men are pretty predictable. For the most part, we just want to know our ladies are happy.

But on the other side of the coin... when the nagging starts... we turn off and drop out... Not because we don't want to make our ladies happy... rather... because we have had the complete opposite effect and therefore come to the conclusion that we can not make them happy, so stop trying... we are humiliated and in some ways, emasculated...
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 10:57 PM
Quote:
Tell H you plan to fix the shingle, ask him what tools and materials you'll need. Tell him you're going to go for it on Sunday or something. If he chooses to jump on it before then great. If Sunday rolls around and he hasn't done anything, then feel free to address it however you want in terms of fixing it yourself.

This I like very much. I like the idea of not having to penalize myself in an effort to provide him what he needs. (I feel like it's what I did when I hired the handyman this fall, but I don't think that was received well by H or this board. I'll have to trace back and revisit that thread.)

The trick for me will be in managing to do it without sounding insincere. If I have to ask him what tools I'll need, for example, it will be insincere. I am simply more handy than him. It's not arrogance, just a by-product of being my father's daughter. Be it training or genetics, it was a gift. I'll be on the lookout for other opportunities/options.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 11:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Crazyville
I am simply more handy than him. It's not arrogance, just a by-product of being my father's daughter. Be it training or genetics, it was a gift. I'll be on the lookout for other opportunities/options.


If that is a fact and accepted by both yourself and your H, then so be it.

In that case, how else can your H feel needed by you? How else can he feel loved and appreciated by you, for the things he contributes to the M?
Posted By: Accuray Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 11:02 PM
Also from "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It" -- worst emotion for a man is shame. It causes a chemical reaction in the brain which makes us feel physically uncomfortable. It's a "fight or flight" trigger that says "something isn't going well here, change your circumstance" and that's what leads to the withdrawal. It's more instinctual than conscious.

If H believes you are going to shame him he will just stop trying, withdraw, and avoid any circumstance which could possibly lead to him being shamed, because it makes him physically uncomfortable to be in that position -- not just emotionally uncomfortable, physically.

If I were to summarize that book in one sentence it would be "shaming is a major no-no if you want good behavior for your H"

The "I wish you would be ..." generally provokes the opposite behavior that you want. I'm sure you know this stuff.

Accuray
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 11:20 PM
Accuray, please don't assume I know anything. If I did, I suspect I wouldn't be here. smile
Quote:
In that case, how else can your H feel needed by you? How else can he feel loved and appreciated by you, for the things he contributes to the M?

And that would be the $64k question! I don't know. It seems everything I ask, he either declines outright or neglects until I deal with it myself. He has started filling my gas tank for me. It's not something I can't do myself, or something I can depend upon him to do regularly, but does that count?

I'm not a guy, I can't get in his (your) head. I completely get shaming being a bad thing, but women don't like being shamed either, so I probably don't need the intricacies behind it to know it's not a good thing to do. If he cooked better than me, I would LOVE it, even though it's "woman's work." I would relish the opportunity to learn something and enhance my skills. Men have this "ego" thing that I just don't get, such that if I can hang crown molding and H can't, rather than watch and learn, he sulks.

I don't yet have "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It," still waiting for it. I'm currently reading "How to have a new H by Friday." I will confess to having taken a few days off of reading, as I was on overload and nothing was going to "take" anyway. But I'm on spring break next week so I'll be back into it then. Maybe some other books will have arrived by then.

I do love hearing the guy perspective directly from a guy, though.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 11:28 PM
I'll use way too many words, but please be patient.

I was fortunate enough to have been taught several years ago about what true forgiveness is....and what it isn't. I was fortunate b/c I don't think I'd be here today, if I had not been given that information. It was vital to me when I was faced with applying forgiveness to my H. It also helped me to know we can forgive without an apology from the offender. (Which I never had.)

Forgiveness is a personal decision we make. The fact that we have really forgiven, is not based on an emotion. When we forgive, it is an act of our own free will. It has to be our choice, or it's not genuine. This was so important for me to learn b/c I use to base everything on my feelings. But if forgiveness is based on my feelings I have at the time…..then I’d never be able to forgive some things! Sure, it helps if my heart will mellow out where I feel better about forgiving the rascal, but you know…..I learned to do it in spite of my feelings.

So, we make a decision to forgive the other person. We may or may not think they deserve to be forgiven, but that’s not the real issue. The real issue in forgiveness is that it's based on who we are....not who the other person is. It's more about our character instead of their character.

Once we make the decision to forgive, it’s not necessary to tell. Unless he has admitted doing us wrong or has asked for our forgiveness, we don't have to announce it. (There are some who just as soon tell us to keep our forgiveness b/c they don't want it), so telling or not telling is also our decision.

Go into this without any expectations from him. Where have we heard that before? I think we've heard that advice quite a bit right here on DB. Same thing applies in this case, too. We can't do it as if it were a magic spell and set back to see the big payoff. If anything, we are usually tested about that "forgiveness" we told ourselves we were doing. Tested by our own self doubt when we experience any negative emotions...AFTER we forgave the person.

I think that goes back to your question.

Quote:
How do you know when you've forgiven someone? /quote]

Although the act of forgiving isn’t based on emotions, it usually brings a sense of peace to the mind that has had so much negative in it. Once we let go of all those negative feelings we’ve carried around for so long, we may discover our emotional load is quite lighter!

Forgiveness is our decision to let go of our anger, hurt, resentment, etc. that we have toward another person. We make the decision that we will no longer be a slave to those destructive emotional cancers. We realize that we have punished ourselves by having hard feelings toward the other person. Maybe we aren’t ready to let go b/c somehow we think we need to punish him a little longer. That’s just wrong!

Let's say you have made the decision from your own volition to forgive your H about...whatever (pick one). Since both you and your H are human beings, there is a good chance that he'll say or do something to trigger your anger/doubt/or something. If you react....even if it's kept within your own mind....you may wonder if that means you failed and didn't REALLY forgive him in the first place--or you wouldn't be feeling that way now. That's an old trick our mind uses to cause us to doubt ourselves. CV, you don't stop having emotions to things, especially if he does something that hurts. Neither do we lose our memory after we choose to forgive. We just don’t dwell on it and allow it to control us.

The old offense should not weigh on us as before, but you aren’t shielded to new hurts. New offense can hurt and if that new offense looks and feels like the old one, then it can cause us to doubt about success in forgiving him at all. Why? Based on what?

What do you do when you start to experience that stuff again? Do you wonder that something must be wrong....and you must have failed and didn't forgive him at all....yada, yada. This is important right here so don't look it over too quickly.....you come right back to that doubt with the self knowledge (b/c it was a self decision) and determination (b/c you are certainly determined) that you chose to forgive him and you stillchoose to forgive him. It may sound silly, but sometimes we have to speak to our doubting minds and tell it to stop stop!!

If you are a Christian, then you can relate this with how you believe God loves you. You know He does because His Word says so. When those bad days come and your mind or emotions try to cause you to doubt His love......what will you do then? Will you say that since you don't "feel" very loved right then, or you aren't lovable therefore God couldn't possibly love you? That's when you realize it's not based on your feelings. Feeling the love is great, but let's face it, we don't always have the warm fuzzies, we'd like. In spite of doubts, you know the truth and it's based on the Word of God. It's up to you to believe it.

[quote]How do you know that you haven't?


When you have no peace. When you cannot resist talking about the “forgiven” offense. When his offenses plague you day & night. When you make a stance on your decision to forgive, but you continue to treat your H no differently.
I believe the most telling sign of unforgiveness is if you drag up old offenses when you get into a R talk or argument with him.

Forgiveness is an act of grace.

I never heard of anyone regretting that they forgave an offense.
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 11:41 PM
Thanks, Sandi. I'm sorry you lost your other post! BTDT! I'm going to take what you've said and what the others have said and see if I can mush it all together. And then.... well, we'll see.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 11:44 PM
Maybe you can make some "mush potatos". Let us know how it goes!
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 11:48 PM
Sandi, in your case, half real, half hypothetical...

If you told a friend, "No, I don't want to have the party at our place because H has the yard trashed with his collection of junk, and it would just be too embarrassing for me for everyone to see that." Does it still count as your forgiving him?
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/07/12 11:50 PM
And, if someone asks about your history, your past problems with your H, does it not invoke some unhappy feelings? I would have suspected it still did, even if you've forgiven him.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/08/12 12:23 AM
Originally Posted By: Crazyville
It seems everything I ask, he either declines outright or neglects until I deal with it myself.


This likely comes from his expectations. He has confident expectations that what ever he does, will not be good enough. Even if he does it, you will not be happy.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville
He has started filling my gas tank for me. It's not something I can't do myself, or something I can depend upon him to do regularly, but does that count?


Yes, that counts.

If you cannot provide him with tasks which he WILL accept, he may reach out in ways that he feels he CAN contribute.

Look for these things and appreciate them. As you let him know you appreciate them, no matter how small or insignificant you may feel they are, he is likely to step in more. Again, praise the positives. Like a child, the more praise you give him, even for attempts, the more likely he will want to do more. Your praise would suggest to him that you are happy... and he wants you to be happy...

If he takes on a "honeydo" task, do your best to not verbalise any flaws in his workmanship or how he may have failed to complete the task to the extent you had hoped. Thank him for doing it and make a note not to ask him to do a similar task in the future.

What IS your H good at? What are his strengths?
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/08/12 04:22 AM
Quote:
What IS your H good at? What are his strengths?

He has a good golf score, and he's good at tennis and softball. Sports in general. He's very social and can talk to anyone, anywhere. He's good at remembering names. He's good at taking out the trash (meaning he doesn't forget, not that he does it with flair.) He likes to mow the lawn. Friends know him as "Mr. Acts of Service," because he'll drop whatever he's doing to help them when asked. He's great about keeping in touch with family. He'd die for his kids. He likes to tell stories and reminisce. He's very agreeable and will commit to almost anything. I can't speak for his job/work.
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/08/12 02:20 PM
Well, H fixed the siding without my nagging. I didn't help, didn't direct, didn't even check his work when he was done. I just told him I really appreciated his dealing with it. (I felt bad for him too because he bloodied his finger in the process.) I looked at it this morning and he really did do a good job. I'll be sure to tell him so later.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/08/12 02:57 PM
Originally Posted By: Crazyville
Well, H fixed the siding without my nagging. I didn't help, didn't direct, didn't even check his work when he was done. I just told him I really appreciated his dealing with it. (I felt bad for him too because he bloodied his finger in the process.) I looked at it this morning and he really did do a good job. I'll be sure to tell him so later.


Good for your H!! And good for you CV!! smile
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/08/12 04:30 PM
Great :-) Well done.

Now, what do you take away from this case about YOU?
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/08/12 05:11 PM
That I was prepared for the worst, based upon my history with him?

I'm just doing what I was told. What should I have taken away about me?
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/08/12 05:18 PM
Why negative?

How about: if we give people space to shine, they might surprise us?

How about: if I don't manage things the way I want to, it is still ok?
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/08/12 05:29 PM
I like those. I do.

I guess I was still stinging from the posts earlier this week. I was expecting a criticism.

Call me Pavlov's dog.
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/08/12 05:50 PM
You know, I recognize darts even if you try to throw them sideways ;-)
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/08/12 06:19 PM
Really?! Because that was a reflection on me, not you. And certainly not on you personally, as there were a number of posters with your same message. I'm still chewing on them all, but I hope there's some evidence that I'm also listening and applying.

I was only trying to point out that I recognize that I'm reactive. I'm intimidated easily. Once "bitten," I don't often put my hand out again to risk another bite. It's not a conscious choice. (re: Pavlov's dog)

I'm still not sure why my responses are being received as offensive (re: dart.)
Posted By: sandi2 Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/09/12 02:01 AM
Quote:
Sandi, in your case, half real, half hypothetical...
If you told a friend, "No, I don't want to have the party at our place because H has the yard trashed with his collection of junk, and it would just be too embarrassing for me for everyone to see that." Does it still count as your forgiving him?


Short answer is Yes!

Explanation is longer smile (And I'm glad you asked that question.) This has been an ongoing thing with my H. I kind of doubt it will completely stop anytime soon, but it has slowed down, so I'm in hopes. I still do not like all the junk he "collects" b/c we do not have adequate space to store it. I don't want people thinking we are trashy,even if the yard says otherwise. It's like when a man is not pleased at his unorganized home--but he still loves the homemaker.

I no longer b!tch to him about the yard. I don't show a bad attitude and start holding resentment that allows walls to go up which are hurtful to the R. When I forgave him for cluttering the yard, I let go of the clutter I had in my heart toward him.

I would love to have a pretty yard and invite my friends over for a party. However, I would tell my friend that I'm embarrassed about the appearance of the yard. But instead of going on futher to explain how bad my H is to bring home all that junk, I would let the conversation end where I said I was embarrassed about the yard (and make sure I didn't turn that embarrassment into a H bashing segment.) When I start bad mouthing my H, then bad feelings begin. After the bad feelings come, then I feel pretty much defeated. Best thing to do is

I have identified that area as one of my triggers.
If I don’t control my tongue, then I don’t control the things that usually follow. I would be experiencing the same thing I had to let go when I decided to forgive my H of this particular fault.

Quote:
And, if someone asks about your history, your past problems with your H, does it not invoke some unhappy feelings? I would have suspected it still did, even if you've forgiven him.


It has not made me unhappy to talk about it here. And, to answer questions about my M. However, I talk about it here to try to help others as best I can. If it should start to affect my feelings, or I am riled toward my H due to my talking to prying folks, and listening to their take on things I've been forgiven--and on things about him that he's been forgiven, then that's when to pack it up.

I think most people vary in how that would affect your emotions. In that case, I would choose to not
discuss it or change the subject quickly.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/09/12 12:07 PM
Well, that last paragraph did not make much sense, I'm sure.

CV, it does not affect my feelings toward my H when I come to DB and discuss issues. And honestly, I don't remember anyone else who has asked me anything about our R.

For me, it was therapy to come here and talk. My unhappiness was evident then. I have to give credit to several board members at that time who taught me. After I was able to let it go, then it did not make me unhappy to discuss my MR with new board members b/c I wanted to help others the way I was helped.

Right now, it's very difficult for you b/c you are dealing with a lot of "stuff", and it is painful to talk about it. If family and/or friends want to discuss something that you know is going to put you right back into that sad place again...you will have to tell them you are dealing. It's personal and you aren't required to talk about it to anyone you do not chose to discuss it with.

After we forgive, we are rather delicate for a while (IMHO), and we need encouragement to lift us up and see hope. So, you may have to avoid certain folks or situations that could affect your resolve (if you've made one).

I look at it like healing physically from an infection. You need to keep the infected wound shielded from germs until it has time to start healing.

I'm blessed that I don't have family or friends that try to influence me against my H. If they did, I would have a hard time. OTOH, if they are always talking about him as if he's like perfect and I'm lucky to have him....that would probably stir up my "old feelings" quicker than most anything. Crazy, huh?

It's a matter of knowing yourself and how you react to certain things. If it's bad, then stay away from it.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/09/12 01:24 PM
...and yet, so many WAS never seem to reach that level of understanding, forgiveness and reconciliation that you have.

While I am tremendously encouraged by the strength and determination you have exhibited to make things right, I can't help but be discouraged that some WAS will never find their way out of the fog and do the things necessary to get their hearts and minds in a place where they can try to make a go of it again.
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/10/12 04:29 PM
2TP, maybe it's not that they haven't reached that level of understanding and forgiveness. Maybe the only thing lacking is the desire for reconciliation. I think Sandi2 would agree that hers was a long and difficult road. There was no guarantee that she was going to be happy at the end of it. There are many people that get divorced and remarried and find themselves very happy in their new R. It's not all about being happy, but being miserable isn't something anyone wants.
Posted By: Accuray Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/11/12 04:41 AM
Hi CV,

I have nothing to add here, other than to say I'm happy you've been putting your toe in the water and trying yet again to make things better with H. I really hope you continue making small steps and giving H an honest chance in those areas.

I'm glad you're here, and I hope that despite how painful this is for you, that it is helping in some way.

Accuray
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/12/12 07:31 PM
Unfortunately, it seems putting my toe in the water has resulted in it getting bitten off.

To recap:

H wants to call during the day and check in. It has no real value to me because it's a lot of dead air, but I've been accommodating. I've also removed all criticism from my conversation/interaction. H has noticed and is appreciative. Nothing has changed on his part, I just don't comment. I've made a point to be pleasant, even if I'm not feeling it. H has noticed this as well and has commented that he appreciates it. Conversations have been very non-intimate (eq. schedules, plans for house repair, school or boy scouts for S, etc.) This seems to be all that H wants.

About a week ago, I offered to move back into the master BR and to reengage sexually. H took me up on it. I was hesitant but my heart was open. He was quite pleased and happy about the change. Me, not so much, because I was woken up several times by his snoring because he wasn't wearing his cpap.

H had been doing some sexual "research" and had something he wanted to try (I'll skip the details.) I said I didn't want to do it because I wasn't comfortable with it at all. He did it anyway, and I felt utterly humiliated. I told him how I felt, asked him to stop, he continued. He loved it, I'll never forget it.

I didn't "hound" him about his "plan" that he had been working on. He approached me about mid-week. Apparently he was working on listening to some marriage CD's and was insistent that this was the solution to all of our problems. I asked a couple of questions about it, but he sort of just blew them off or replied with "I don't know." I listened to the set of CD's later in the week. It doesn't address any of our issues, just paints a picture of how a couple can be romantic.

H often references the wonderful life that some friends of ours have. They have a boat and a lake house and will spend a week there occasionally, just the two of them. He imagines this as his ideal fantasy. The problem is, we have a boat, we've gone out just the two of us, and he is completely bored after just two hours. This same couple went on a week-long camping trip to the middle of nowhere. After hearing about it, I thought to myself, "How fabulous!" H says to me that that would be his worst nightmare. I bring this up because that's one of the aspects of the "romantic" approach on these CD's. We're supposed to plan a 3-day vacation, 4 times a year, just the two of us. But if he's bored with me that easily, what would be the point?

He read to me some notes he had taken from the CD's. One of the things he read to me was something to the effect that your entire life is affected by the state of your marriage. I said that I completely get that, which is why I'm so depressed right now, but that I honestly didn't see that with him. He doesn't seem to miss a beat. If anything, he's even more active and social when we're in a poor state. He definitely doesn't respond like I read from posters on this site. GAL'g would never be a problem for him. He explained to me that he didn't see any reason why our M issues should impact his social life. Basically I just didn't get the point of his saying it.

We talked at one point about the basic principles of a M relationship. I stated that I think one party insisting that the other party do something that they clearly don't want to do is counter-productive to the R. They may win the battle, but they'll lose the war. H immediately says he absolutely agrees, no hesitation. This surprised me because his interactions with me are contrary. I asked about that, and he went on to explain that it is worth it to him if it's something he really wants, which includes going to church with him, boating with him, sleeping in the same bed, visiting his family with him, etc. I can't think of anything that he has wanted that doesn't fall into that category. If he wants it and I don't, it becomes something he really wants and he'll nag until he gets it. I don't know how to digest his claim that he believes it's bad but then does it anyway.

For my part, I've stopped reading R books altogether for now and I'm reading some on personal goal setting/life strategies, etc. I'm exercising more, which feels great. I've also looked into some personality studies for myself. Ironically, I've learned that I really am not a perfectionist afterall. I don't qualify for any of the tests. Apparently this is just a label I've picked up from my H's accusations without really understanding what it meant (I'm sure he doesn't either.)

I realize I've only been at this for a little under two weeks, but I'm really questioning the purpose. I really don't get any value from giving H everything he wants with no return. Maybe I'm just too selfish that way and shouldn't be in a M.
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/12/12 07:36 PM
CV,

I spent a lot of my previous M denying being critical, though I was hypercritical. Really, if someone thinks you are being critical, odds are extremely high that you are. So, you can deflect my "dart" comment, but you haven't dissuaded me. But, it is really OK. The only reason I mention it is because the more you recognize this in yourself, the better your life will become.

Anyway, my point in asking about what YOU learned is that, contrary to the message that you might be receiving from others, the important thing is NOT that your exercise might have made H happy, though that is a nice consequence.

What IS the most important thing in my book is that you made a change that benefits YOU. IF you make such changes consistently, your life will be better, no matter what happens with your personal relationships.

-- Give people more space to shine, more space to love you.

-- Give people space to be generous and thoughtful, more space to help.

-- Give yourself more chances to appreciate generosity from others, more chances to appreciate what they freely choose rather than what you request or demand.

-- Accept imperfection more in yourself and others, take joy in who you are, sincerely approve of yourself because of your accomplishments. Take pity on those who said you always fall short, they must have been coming from a very sad place.

-- What MATTERS is that you let go a little bit, let go of a little bit of control, of a little bit of your need for perfection, and I bet it FELT a lot better.
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/12/12 07:52 PM
Sorry, OT, it didn't make me feel better. Actually, after the last week and a half, I feel like crap. I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. We simply do not see this situation from complementary perspectives. There is so much more to life than the one-track approach you have to my sitch. I'll take what you're saying into consideration, but I also need to move on to other things. Even if you're right on, this can't be the only aspect of my sitch worth focusing on.
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/12/12 07:54 PM
P.S. As for the WAS bashing, I really, really hate it. WAS/LBS is a false dichotomy, or a dichotomy built more on timing than anything else. People are at different places in their lives. We all try to do our best. Our best looks different when we are in different places. It is arrogant of LBSs to take the superior stance — WASs make choices LBSs don't like, no doubt they make some choices they wouldn't make if not driven by such pain. But, we are all human. We have ALL deeply harmed our partners, even if it was not through an A or choosing to end an M.

Pretty uniformly, LBSs eventually agree that their XMs were deeply flawed. Pretty uniformly, they mimic the adolescence of "WASs". Pretty uniformly, they swing to the "rewriting history, everything in the M was bad," end of things, and eventually settle on a more realistic view. Pretty uniformly, they act out, date too soon, become an "alien." Pretty uniformly, they get stuck for awhile. Pretty uniformly, they finally get to a better place that does not include the X-spouse. Not at all much different than a WAS.

So, the LBS/WAS as touted on these boards (not in MWs books) is hugely unproductive -- it leads to a deep lack of respect and blocks empathy. Not pretty.

So, I'd just try to ignore the LBS versus WAS stuff as much as possible if I were you.

DBing gets productive when people work ON THEMSELVES to become people who will lead more fulfilling, more authentic lives, and who will be better partners in ANY relationship. It is only when WE grow for our OWN sakes that DBing helps anyone or any of their relationships. And THAT is just as true for LBSs and WASs.
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/12/12 08:22 PM
"I realize I've only been at this for a little under two weeks, but I'm really questioning the purpose. I really don't get any value from giving H everything he wants with no return. Maybe I'm just too selfish that way and shouldn't be in a M."

EGAD!!!! This is NOT what you should be doing!!!!!!!!! YIPES!!!!!!! Of COURSE you've had a horrible week.

I still think "Conquer your Critical Inner Voice" and "Lifetraps" books would be huge for you. But maybe the most important thing is to work on boundaries.

Really useful post, BTW. Let's look at this: "About a week ago, I offered to move back into the master BR and to reengage sexually. H took me up on it. I was hesitant but my heart was open. He was quite pleased and happy about the change. Me, not so much, because I was woken up several times by his snoring because he wasn't wearing his cpap.

H had been doing some sexual "research" and had something he wanted to try (I'll skip the details.) I said I didn't want to do it because I wasn't comfortable with it at all. He did it anyway, and I felt utterly humiliated. I told him how I felt, asked him to stop, he continued. He loved it, I'll never forget it."

You with an open heart offered to share bed with H and be intimate. Great. Good for you. H was definitely a creep in response. Bad for him. H did not respect your wishes about sleep or sex. Really, really yuck. But, this is not about him, it is about YOU.

What can YOU learn about YOURSELF to have a better life? Here's a suggestion: your life would go better if you set and enforce boundaries that work for you. No explanation of them needed, they are YOUR boundaries and justified solely in virtue of that.

"H, I'd like to try sharing a bed again, but we need to do it in a way that works for both of us. For me, that requires being able to get a good nights sleep. I can't sleep well when you don't wear a CPAP, so that's a dealbreaker for me."

Then, when he doesn't wear the CPAP, state clearly and directly that that doesn't work for you and sleep elsewhere.

"H, I'm open to renewing our sexual intimacy. In the past, I've moved away from it because sometimes it did not feel good or right to me. If I start feeling that way again, I can own the responsibility to express that clearly and directly. My boundary is that we immediately stop whatever it is that isn't working for me, stop is a loving way without retribution or condemnation. I want to find intimacy that works for us both."

Then, stop sexual intimacy when he does NOT respect you after you were very direct and clear in your communication (and you were VERY clear with him.)

It is NEVER to late to set boundaries that work for you. He doesn't get a free pass because you had vague or weak boundaries in the past.

It is FINE to say now that the experiment did not work because he did not respect your wishes. It is FINE to reevaluate whether to continue with the experiment or not.

Remember, this is about what is good for YOU. Really. Really. Really.
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/12/12 08:26 PM
And, try to detach from the new pain a bit.

YOU did something wonderful this week when you gave H space to shine. Who CARES whether he changed from that.

YOU DID.

Don't let HIS further actions that demonstrated a lack of respect for you take away YOUR gains.
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/12/12 08:32 PM
BTW, sexually, I urge you to have a zero-tolerance policy for ANYTHING that causes bad feelings or causes you to check out mentally. It is damaging and you should never do it. It doesn't matter WHAT it is. This is especially true if you dissociate during sex when it is not working for you because of prior sexual abuse or rape. When someone dissociates because of sex that isn't working for them (for whatever reason), it FEELS like abuse or rape, even though it isn't (because the person is in such a case free to leave). The fact that one is free to stop the sex, but endures it and dissociates, does not change the phenomenal experience that is associated with sexual assault. OF COURSE, one flinches from a spouse sexually if there have EVER been such experiences within the context of the R. I have no idea if this applies to you or not, but it helped me a lot.
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/12/12 08:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Crazyville


H had been doing some sexual "research" and had something he wanted to try (I'll skip the details.) I said I didn't want to do it because I wasn't comfortable with it at all. He did it anyway, and I felt utterly humiliated. I told him how I felt, asked him to stop, he continued. He loved it, I'll never forget it.




Sorry, but the rest of what you posted is just a blur to me. This is tantamout to marital RAPE (and you'd have to know me, and how much of an "Oh please; we're all way-too-thin-skinned in this country!" guy to know how much this REALLY bothered me), and I'm pretty stunned that o.t.'s advice is as mild as it is in response to it.

This should be a dealbreaker to you, and a HARD boundary needs to be drawn, swift and hard. I'd certainly start with another 6 months of separate bedrooms.

I do have to admit, I haven't read your sitch, so please let me know if I'm reading this wrong, Crazy.


Starsky
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/12/12 08:35 PM
Originally Posted By: oldtimer
BTW, sexually, I urge you to have a zero-tolerance policy for ANYTHING that causes bad feelings or causes you to check out mentally. It is damaging and you should never do it. It doesn't matter WHAT it is. This is especially true if you dissociate during sex when it is not working for you because of prior sexual abuse or rape. When someone dissociates because of sex that isn't working for them (for whatever reason), it FEELS like abuse or rape, even though it isn't (because the person is in such a case free to leave). The fact that one is free to stop the sex, but endures it and dissociates, does not change the phenomenal experience that is associated with sexual assault. OF COURSE, one flinches from a spouse sexually if there have EVER been such experiences within the context of the R. I have no idea if this applies to you or not, but it helped me a lot.


Sorry, but if she told him she didn't want to do it, and he did it anyway, and then she told him to stop, and he didn't . . . that IS rape. Period.


Starsky
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/12/12 08:39 PM
Starsky,

I don't disagree at all with your suggested boundary, but it is for to CV to find those that work for her. My point was precisely that CV needs to set and enforce boundaries that work for her and it is NOT too late to do so and they need no justification other than they work for her.

But, it isn't marital rape unless it was not CV's choice to put up with it. I can easily see how it would FEEL that way though (and perhaps CV's H did not stop when asked to stop in which case I agree it would in fact amount to sexual assault.)
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/12/12 08:46 PM
Yes, if she told him to stop, I agree. If she said that she wasn't into it and didn't think she'd like it, then he's a creepy inconsiderate lover. But if she did not consent to it, it is rape. No doubt. I didn't get the impression that was the case, but it could have been.

CV -- if that was the case, if you asked him to stop and he didn't, then, for me, that would be it. I'd be done, no looking back. Gone. Today. No do overs.

The thing to gain here is how to empower oneself to make and own choices that work for one sexually. For me, that would ALWAYS involve zero-tolerance of any sexual assault. End of story.

But, there IS in other cases space to own one's choices and change them to enforce better boundaries.
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/12/12 08:47 PM
Starsky -- we seem to be cross-posting...
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/12/12 08:48 PM
Originally Posted By: oldtimer


But, it isn't marital rape unless it was not CV's choice to put up with it. I can easily see how it would FEEL that way though (and perhaps CV's H did not stop when asked to stop in which case I agree it would in fact amount to sexual assault.)



Quote:
I told him how I felt, asked him to stop, he continued.
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/12/12 08:52 PM
Quote:
"H, I'd like to try sharing a bed again, but we need to do it in a way that works for both of us. For me, that requires being able to get a good nights sleep. I can't sleep well when you don't wear a CPAP, so that's a dealbreaker for me."

Then, when he doesn't wear the CPAP, state clearly and directly that that doesn't work for you and sleep elsewhere.

"H, I'm open to renewing our sexual intimacy. In the past, I've moved away from it because sometimes it did not feel good or right to me. If I start feeling that way again, I can own the responsibility to express that clearly and directly. My boundary is that we immediately stop whatever it is that isn't working for me, stop is a loving way without retribution or condemnation. I want to find intimacy that works for us both."

Then, stop sexual intimacy when he does NOT respect you after you were very direct and clear in your communication (and you were VERY clear with him.)

I've done this exact thing, probably 20 times already. I've spent significantly more time in the last 5 years in the guest bedroom than in the marriage bed. Our sexual frequency is about 4 times a year, usually all in a two-week period, because I keep removing myself. It's pretty hard to be unclear about the cpap. "I need you to wear it. Period." "I will, I promise!"

That is the point I was at when I started posting -- in the other bedroom, refusing to have sex, refusing to go to dinner with him, etc. etc. Those were my boundaries. Obviously, that doesn't make for a happy, healthy M. The advice in DB and to my posts was to reengage, give him another chance "to shine."

Now what?

Quote:
YOU did something wonderful this week when you gave H space to shine. Who CARES whether he changed from that.

YOU DID.

Don't let HIS further actions that demonstrated a lack of respect for you take away YOUR gains.
Who cares? I don't need to do this to feel good about myself. I've done it so many times, there isn't even a sense of accomplishment about it. So if I'm not doing it to get results, and I'm not doing it to feel good about myself, WHY am I doing it? What is the purpose then?
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/12/12 09:00 PM
Quote:
Yes, if she told him to stop, I agree. If she said that she wasn't into it and didn't think she'd like it, then he's a creepy inconsiderate lover. But if she did not consent to it, it is rape. No doubt. I didn't get the impression that was the case, but it could have been.
Just to kill this debate, we'll go with extremely inconsiderate and selfish lover. With him, no news there. I don't feel raped, simply deeply devalued. Also, no news there.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/12/12 09:30 PM
Quote:
That is the point I was at when I started posting -- in the other bedroom, refusing to have sex, refusing to go to dinner with him, etc. etc. Those were my boundaries. Obviously, that doesn't make for a happy, healthy M. The advice in DB and to my posts was to reengage, give him another chance "to shine."

Now what?


CV, I see how frustrated you are and I honestly can't blame you for feeling the way you do. What sane person wouldn't feel the same way, all things considered? What I would offer is that the things you have been doing to reengage appear to be noticed by your H as you have stated in previous posts.

The thing I think you should probably consider is that the things you are doing need to continue for your actions to take root and be believed to be long term by your H. This may or may not result in changes in your H but only time will tell. If your H sees and believes your loving actions to be permanent, he may be more inclined to listen to you about what you need out of your R with him.

I know based upon your posts that you don't think he is capable, and you may very well be right. I'd just try to stick to those activities that are getting a reaction from your H for a longer period of time before throwing in the towel.

Think of it like a drop in a gallon bucket. A single drop of water doesn't seem like much, but given sufficient time, the bucket eventually fills. Can you keep filling the bucket?

BTW when are you going to EE?
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/12/12 10:07 PM
CV, for five years I "settled" in my M. Beyond that, I focused (else)where I felt valued or that was somehow bringing value to my kid's family of origin (ie. the nuclear unit).

THAT... was where I failed my M.

From an extreme perspective, I did not abuse my children, I did not cheat, I did not conduct myself immorally or unethically, I did not use drugs or abuse alcohol.

I was an "average". nice guy who was married and had a couple kids in an average home and I was a stay at home parent who consulted from time to time to help with financials.

Like I said... I "failed" because I settled. I disconnected from my W because at the time, I was fed up with not feeling appreciated by my W. Further, I felt that I was being emotionally beat up (abused) and disrespected in many ways. I did not have any time limit as to leaving the M. In fact, I didn't really consider leaving the M in the future. I made a choice and I was prepared to stick with it, "until death do us part."

Why am I saying this (again)?

Because we all have our deal breakers. Mine was, when my W transferred essentially ALL (it FELT that way to me) of her emotional connection FROM me, TO others. Part of this included EXCLUDING me from participating in "family" outings (her and the kids, but NOT me) and really... the part where I found her in bed with another man... no matter WHAT happened... really... I really don't give a s4it what happened... that was just "another" thing... that was what I specifically pointed to as my "reason" for leaving.

Anyone who knows me and the members of this board know me well enough to know... that I am 100% pro M and believe that unless someone has DONE EVERYTHING, separation or D IS NOT AN OPTION.

But, having read the above and getting more insight, I do understand if you are done with your H and your M.

At this point in time... for me... D is not just an option... it might be my healthy choice. I don't HAVE to... for all intents and purposes, I am only M on paper. There is simply no indicators to suggest that my W and I could find that balance. To be able to actually HAVE a healthy, loving M. I should stop kidding myself (and ultimately my kids) into staying M... "just in case my W changes her mind".

So I will only say this and I am not suggesting you do this. But I will say that to be fair to yourself and your S... do not stay M because you want your S to be in a family unit until he graduates.

You can easily provide him with appropriate parental guidance separated or divorced and even possibly find someone to be involved with, whereby you can demonstrate to your S what a healthy, loving, respectful R or M can look like.
Posted By: Truegritter Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 01:48 AM
Originally Posted By: Cville
With him, no news there. I don't feel raped, simply deeply devalued. Also, no news there.


And CV is still allowing it. No news there either.

CV I am not trying to pile on here.

It sounds to me that the martyr role feels very comfortable for you.

I think what my friends are trying to say to you is that nothing will be NEW unless you decide to make different choices about how you will allow yourself to be treated.

I see the victim stance from you.

The question is why? Why are you comfortable playing that role? Your H only knows you as THAT woman.

How will he learn differently?

How can you have a different life expereince than what you have endured so far?

Do you respect the woman you see in the mirror? It is not up to your H to value you? He either will or he won't.

It is up to you to value yourself and not let it fall into the hands of your inconsiderate spouse.

You ARE responsible for how you allow him to treat you.

You are only a victim once. After that you are a volunteer.

BOUNDARIES.

Will protect you and teach him what you allow. The most of extreme consequence of breaking them might be he no longer gets the privilege to be in YOUR life.
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 03:36 AM
No, I'm not interested in being the victim. I'm trying to figure out how to make my M work. I'm getting some mixed message here -- some say keep trying, keep giving him an opportunity to shine, forgive and get over the past and reengage, then you're saying to stop doing all those things because it means I don't have boundaries. It can't be both.
Posted By: Truegritter Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 08:57 AM
Originally Posted By: CV
some say keep trying, keep giving him an opportunity to shine, forgive and get over the past and reengage.


...at any cost?

Get over the past yes. That is healthy to look at it recognize YOUR mistakes forgive HIM for his...

Reengage?

In the same old marriage?

I don't think anyone is giving you that advice.

Originally Posted By: CV
It can't be both.


Certainly not in your old M becuase that is what you have lived with and he has come to expect.

You walked away and then found your way here? Why?

How about giving yourself an opportunity to shine?

How about we focus on what CV might look like without her H. I don't mean without him like your M is done.

I mean let's stop watching H. Let's start watching the woman in the mirror.

My questions for you again:

How can you have a different life expereince than what you have endured so far?

Do you respect the woman you see in the mirror?
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 01:37 PM
I'm not agreeing to engage in the "same old marriage." OT made suggestions for communicating my boundaries, which I have done repeatedly, to which H has listened and acknowledged and promised to respect -- each and every time before I reengaged. Because of this, reengaging has become few and far between, with less investment on my part each time. On MY part, nothing is the same.

I absolutely respect the person in the mirror. There is no question. I could list a 100 reasons why. If I didn't respect myself, I suspect these things wouldn't even bother me, but they do because I know I deserve better.

I'm doing several things to work on myself and I will continue to do so. I am and always have. I believe that should be a lifelong activity for each of us.

I came here because the DB board is support for M reconciliation.
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 01:41 PM
Quote:
And CV is still allowing it. No news there either.
No, actually, specifically on the topic of sex which is what this statement was referring to, we haven't had sex since that time and we won't be -- indefinitely.
Posted By: InAPickle Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 01:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Crazyville
No, I'm not interested in being the victim. I'm trying to figure out how to make my M work. I'm getting some mixed message here -- some say keep trying, keep giving him an opportunity to shine, forgive and get over the past and reengage, then you're saying to stop doing all those things because it means I don't have boundaries. It can't be both.


You're right CV. Speaking very subjectively, from my own experience, a lot of talk about "forgiveness" seems simplistic and theoretical and comes across like all you need to is "will it" and a switch will be thrown.

What I mean is real life isn't like that for everyone, perhaps for some, but I'd submit that most of us need a lot of fvcking time to get over things. I've said before, you cannot speed up healing, especially when it comes to emotional scars, and that's what we're all dealing with here, our emotions. Think about it: it's all about our emotions, how we're feeling.

CV, no matter which direction you decide on, point your compass toward healing yourself emotionally, and if that means temporarily not putting up with someone else's sh!t, fine. If it means something else, then that's fine too. You know forgiveness can also be doled out a little at a time as we heal, not just all at once.

So you "can" set bounderies and still give someone else a chance. But to do that you have to have your head in the game, and to do that, you have to be emotionally secure, and that means expecting to be happy with whatever the future holds and whatever decisions you make.

Hugs, Pic.
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 02:31 PM
I was perusing Grmpy_Mnky's post yesterday and I read this:
Quote:
Look, I will be happy and forever grateful if we get another shot at our M. If we don't, I will still be happy and grateful for the time we had.

And this got me thinking. I love GM's statement, but I needed one with a twist so I'm working on my own. I think it's in line with the advice to LBS's that they need to know they're going to be fine whether the M is R or not. I'm thinking something like...

- I'm going to be happy. Not because of you, but in spite of you.
- I'm going to be happy, and I'm not going to let you be responsible for that in any way.
- My personal happiness can't be dependent upon a healthy M, so I need to spend my time/energy on me instead of our M.

I could use help with this. These aren't smooth. It's going to become my mantra. I think I like the second one best. I was already on this course yesterday after reading GM's post, then H kicked it in gear for me last night. I asked him for a clarification on something he said this weekend, and he immediately got angry and told me I focus too much on the M, that I'm making it my idol. And I thought, "maybe so..."

So I want to reach a point where it just doesn't matter. If H walked in looking like Brad Pitt, was romantic like Valentino, got a promotion at work and made $1M/year, etc. or walked in and handed me D papers, I want to be completely unaffected either way. That is my mission. I want to be soooo independently happy/living that what my H does or doesn't do makes absolutely no difference to my life.

Meanwhile, I'm going to go take my dog for a long walk in this beautiful weather, because that makes me very happy (and him, too.) smile
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 03:00 PM
*THIS*.

"- I'm going to be happy. Not because of you, but in spite of you.
- I'm going to be happy, and I'm not going to let you be responsible for that in any way.
- My personal happiness can't be dependent upon a healthy M, so I need to spend my time/energy on me instead of our M."

YES!!!!!! YES!!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!!!!!

"So I want to reach a point where it just doesn't matter. If H walked in looking like Brad Pitt, was romantic like Valentino, got a promotion at work and made $1M/year, etc. or walked in and handed me D papers, I want to be completely unaffected either way. That is my mission. I want to be soooo independently happy/living that what my H does or doesn't do makes absolutely no difference to my life."


Noooo!!!

Of course it is important to have a relationship, a partnership that enriches our lives in which we share in joy, support each other through hard times, etc...

There is a difference between a strong, independent, self-sufficient, self-reliant, whole, well-grounded person and being alone and uncaring. The first requires detachment from another person's stuff so it doesn't warp you and undermine your happiness thereby making space for greater intimacy, the second requires alienation and denial of self and others.

If that doesn't make sense now, ignore it, and focus on the first stuff.

As for the boundaries -- great job stating them clearly to H. It sounds like the side of things to work on is ENFORCING them. Unenforced boundaries are not really boundaries. Resentfully going along with boundary breaches is not good for anyone. It is damaging to you, it sets H up for failure. So, try to STOP a boundary violation PRECISELY when it happens. No CPAP, no wife in bed. No respecting your sexual boundaries, no continuance of sexual activities in that moment.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 03:31 PM
Originally Posted By: Crazyville
... H kicked it in gear for me last night. I asked him for a clarification on something he said this weekend, and he immediately got angry and told me I focus too much on the M, that I'm making it my idol. And I thought, "maybe so..."


To me, this is very telling... (combined with other recent sharing)...

When we talk about respecting yourself, it is because we can't be guaranteed that others will respect us... In the "normal world" we can simply remove ourselves from those who do not respect us. In a M, it's not so easy.

Respecting yourself is a very healthy boundary...

You weren't innocent in the breakdown of the M... but...

In your hurt, pain and anger, the messages that came across in your posts had an appearance that you may simply be venting at the little things, making them bigger than they were.

We can't know your H's perspective, but his behaviours and language suggest that he may not honour the M in the same way that you (rightly) may.

It sounds like your H may either be complacent or stuck in regards to the M. I mean, really so...

Why would anyone not want better...?

In the "worst" of my M, if my W would have come to me and said, "I want to work on making a better M." I would have been happy to work with her towards that end. Even when I was really mad "at her".

People work to have a better job, more money, more fun, more... more... more... it's human nature...

It would be interesting to know what your H's answer would be to the question, "Do you want a better M?"
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 03:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
In the "worst" of my M, if my W would have come to me and said, "I want to work on making a better M." I would have been happy to work with her towards that end. Even when I was really mad "at her".

Let me balance and qualify the above by saying:

AND... in the BEST of my M, if my W would have come to me and said, "I want to work on making a better M." I would have been happy to work with her towards that end. Even when I was really HAPPY "with her".
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 03:42 PM
Quote:
Of course it is important to have a relationship, a partnership that enriches our lives in which we share in joy, support each other through hard times, etc...
I have that, with many people. My H is not that person to me anyway. He is not supportive, he's not the one I would turn to in hard times anyway because he has already proven that he won't be there when I've needed him. Believing my M was supposed to be what you described is what has gotten me here in the first place.

Quote:
There is a difference between a strong, independent, self-sufficient, self-reliant, whole, well-grounded person and being alone and uncaring. The first requires detachment from another person's stuff so it doesn't warp you and undermine your happiness thereby making space for greater intimacy, the second requires alienation and denial of self and others.

If that doesn't make sense now, ignore it, and focus on the first stuff.
The depression/frustration/anger/hopelessness I've been feeling from trying to work on my M has made me alone and uncaring. The last 24 hours focusing on this mission has lightened my spirit in indescribable ways. I finally feel like I'm able to be caring for others, to want to be around people and not want to isolate myself in my home. For the first time, I think I can honestly say that I DON'T CARE if he's not happy with me. I no longer feel guilty about that. I will never breach my boundaries again, and if that means we never have sex again, then it's his problem. My trying to solve his problems creates problems for ME.

Trying to interact with my H in an intimate way is toxic for me. I refuse to be that stupid again. Call it me enforcing boundaries. I can be cordial, I can be respectful, because that is who I am. But we will not SHARE a life together. At this point, it would literally take a miracle.
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 03:46 PM
Quote:
It would be interesting to know what your H's answer would be to the question, "Do you want a better M?"

I can answer that for you because I've asked him that. His answer is 'yes,' and the how is a list of about 47 things that I need to do, one of them, of course, being more sex.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 03:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Crazyville
The last 24 hours focusing on this mission has lightened my spirit in indescribable ways. I finally feel like I'm able to be caring for others, to want to be around people and not want to isolate myself in my home. For the first time, I think I can honestly say that I DON'T CARE if he's not happy with me. I no longer feel guilty about that. I will never breach my boundaries again, and if that means we never have sex again, then it's his problem. My trying to solve his problems creates problems for ME.


I could bold ALL of the above...

VERY nice... stay there, in that mind set...
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 04:48 PM
" I think I can honestly say that I DON'T CARE if he's not happy with me. I no longer feel guilty about that. I will never breach my boundaries again, and if that means we never have sex again, then it's his problem. My trying to solve his problems creates problems for ME.

Trying to interact with my H in an intimate way is toxic for me. I refuse to be that stupid again. Call it me enforcing boundaries. I can be cordial, I can be respectful, because that is who I am. But we will not SHARE a life together. At this point, it would literally take a miracle."

This is great, so great :-) !! It may not feel like it, but this is HUGE progress for yourself.

[And, only as a side-benefit, it also gives your M its best chance for morphing into something that might be a good part of your life, or for becoming something that *clearly*, from a detached, non-fear, non-pain driven place, does not fit into your life. The brackets here are very intentional. Making this the goal takes the focus of YOU.]

OK, now, NEW book recommendation, and it may seem paradoxical, but it isn't once you grasp what the book is about: Passionate Marriage.

Passionate Marriage is all about individuation, about you being a whole happy person regardless of your spouse. It is about setting and enforcing boundaries that WORK FOR YOU. It is about detachment, about not being enmeshed. It is about making space for genuine intimacy and NOT accepting parts of relationships that are damaging to you. It is NOT a how-to-hot-sex book, AT ALL. I actually got it after I filed for D SOLELY to work on MYSELF.

Very happy for you!
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 05:47 PM
Just ordered it. I wish it was titled Passionate Life. Maybe I'll cross out and rewrite the title when I get it, just to stay focused. smile
Posted By: oldtimer Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 06:17 PM
Great! It is not an easy read, but worth it I think. Don't let the relationship/sex stuff get in your way. Remember, it is FOR YOU.
Posted By: Accuray Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 06:46 PM
CV,

I was very surprised that you offered to move back into the bedroom and consented to sex so quickly. Why do you need to be "all in" or "all out?"

It's good that you're giving him little opportunities to feel good about what he's doing, but you could just stay in that mode for a few months.

It does seem that you tend not to enforce your boundaries in the minute -- why do you let H eat food off your plate for instance? You don't have to.

As others have pointed out, the minute H doesn't wear his sleeping device, you leave.

I think you need to treat him with a zero tolerance policy. He crosses your boundary, there is a consequence, and that consequence is applied every time.

Interestingly, one of my IC's was a family therapist who specialized in parenting. She said that the most effective form of punishment is not complete deprivation. She said that if your son likes to play video games an hour a day and you take it away cold turkey, it's not as effective a punishment as cutting him down to 10 minutes. If you leave a little, they are motivated to get more.

Accuray
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 07:26 PM
So quickly? It had probably been 4 months. I can guarantee that my H didn't think it was "so quickly." With the encouragement I was getting to engage, and the criticism I was getting for not doing so, it was the most obvious thing that I could do -- certainly HIS priorities anyway. (There's also the undying hope that someday, I'll actually get some sexual satisfaction in this M.)

I don't know what the "all in" or "all out" is referring to.

Re: the cpap, leave until when? The next night? I'm not sure what the consequence is for him in that. If he's already asleep, he doesn't know if I'm there or not. We don't touch while we're sleeping, so I don't get the need in the first place. He could probably go on like that indefinitely (it might just be a control thing with him.) I'm the one that would be inconvenienced. At least in the same bed, I can disturb his sleep every time he does mine, rather than have to walk down a cold hallway and climb into a cold bed in the middle of the night. I could tell HIM to leave, but he just wouldn't, even if he had previously agreed.

The "eating off my plate" issue is a little more complex. I wouldn't usually go out with him unless there are other people with us (remember, he's bored easily with my company alone.) I feel it's simply too awkward for my friends even for me to say, "Please don't help yourself to food off my plate." H would act all humble and apologetic and say he didn't know, didn't think it was a big deal, etc. It makes me look like a controlling, mothering biotch, he comes off as a poor, abused nice guy, and it makes my friends feel uncomfortable, I'm sure. Who wants to watch two people having a conflict over a casual dinner that's supposed to be fun? So I simply don't go out to dinner with him anymore and meet my GF's for lunch instead.

Quote:
She said that the most effective form of punishment is not complete deprivation. She said that if your son likes to play video games an hour a day and you take it away cold turkey, it's not as effective a punishment as cutting him down to 10 minutes. If you leave a little, they are motivated to get more.
So apply this to my sitch? Foreplay but no climax? Appetizers but no main course? I'm not sure how you're suggesting this applies to my issues.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 08:04 PM
CV, I read Accuray's question of "so quickly" to mean that moving back into the bed didn't have to also include sex "so quickly".

I have been one of the people who has tried to encourage to re-engage with your H... but I was thinking more in the lines of setting up a garden "test plot" for him to play in, while you taught him the ropes. Or go for a ride, a movie, a walk, dinner...

From what I could tell, you were far and away not ready for intimacy, yet...

Re-engaging with your H would be getting to know him again... "first date" if we were to use a metaphor. Connecting with him to some degree.

Many of the people I've "fallen in love with" I was never physically intimate with... I felt (became) connected to them...
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 08:40 PM
Got it! I'm not sure H would have been cooperative for that. His repeated complaint was that I wouldn't have sex with him. He talked about gardening, but I'm convinced it was only for the end goal of sex.

I also read The Sex-Starved Marriage, which sort of implied that everything is going to be tainted if someone is sexually starved. I just wanted to get it "off the plate" so it wasn't an excuse.

Nyeh ... I tried it, it didn't work. We're not having sex now anyway, so somewhat of a moot point. Honestly, I'd rather know up-front how my H is going to be in bed, rather than put all the other effort into it and have it all ruined by his humiliation of me. Are you suggesting his actions would somehow have been acceptable if we had gardened together? I don't think so. And sex will never be a back-burner item for him. He thinks it's my unquestionable obligation.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 08:54 PM
Originally Posted By: Crazyville
Are you suggesting his actions would somehow have been acceptable if we had gardened together?


lol... no, of course not... smile

Again, it would depend on how he thought sex was your "obligation". I'm guessing it's from a biblical perspective.

Honestly, I think the old school way of thinking... (even though I do really enjoy the old testament and feel some of the most powerful lessons are in it...) was not intended to be taken literally... at the very best, it should be interpreted in the context of time and translated to current social understandings...

ANYhow...

My perspective would be, as you re-engage and connect with your H... WITH APPROPRIATE (and appropriately enforced) boundaries... your H will learn to have more respect for you and will not take your "obligations" quite so lightly or cavalierly...
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/13/12 11:50 PM
I didn't think you meant that. smile

He means it in the Biblical sense. It's just not worth it to me to have a conversation about it with him. The OT says a lot of things; you can't just pick and choose.

Well, I think at this point, I'm going to stick with my motto. If H wants to improve the M, it's up to him to put the effort into it. He doesn't appreciate mine, so I don't see that I have much choice. I'll keep doing basic things, like not criticizing, but beyond that, I just don't care. I am the WAS, afterall.
Posted By: Accuray Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/14/12 05:49 PM
CV,

Yes, it felt like you went from deciding to be a little nice to H to giving yourself to him completely. You have to build up to that for yourself too.

WRT eating in restaurants, YES get up and leave H with the friends. Call them after the fact to explain if you want. Leave him sitting there with your friends. How many times do you think you'll have to do that to change his behavior forever? I would bet no more than twice, then the issue is forever put to bed.

For your mantra, a great book is "Mindful Loving". It describes exactly how to achieve what your mantra implies. It's strange and new age style so you have to give it a chance, but great stuff in there mixed in with some craziness

In terms of my other comments, you seem to swing between cutting off H completely emotionally, and then trying to give him all you've got. Is there a path where you give him a little (kindness, opportunity to step up, whatever) and then dial back if you need to, or give a little more if he is stepping up and being respectful.

I assume at some point you told him exactly what YOU expect from this marriage and what you will not tolerate, right? He's clear on the path to success and is choosing not to take it versus being bad at mind reading?

Accuray
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/15/12 04:32 AM
Yes, I've told him what I want. I believe I've been specific.

For the eating out issue, I'm just not comfortable doing what you're suggesting. He would come out looking good and I would look bad. In light of that, it would not be a deterrent for him. Maybe an alternative is to go out with him, but just not sit next to him so he can't reach my plate. I've actually reduced this significantly over time by ordering something I like that I know he doesn't like. But there's other things, too. Nyeh ... whatever. It's not an issue right now.

I can see how you might think that I over-invested, but I don't know. I mean people have sex even when they fight. Or like your sitch, your W does even if it's not her thing. Hard to have partial sex, and more convenient if you're in the same bed so that's the reason for that. We went to dinner once with our S, but other than that, all I was really doing was adjusting my OWN stuff (ie. criticism, compliments, letting him do repairs, etc.) Am I missing anything? That doesn't seem all-in. I refused to do a number of things he was suggesting because I knew we weren't ready for it (eg. 3-day two-party vacation.)

I do have a few questions for the guys here. My BFF picked me up a copy of a book she was reading (Have a New Husband by Friday by Kevin Leman. Seems there should be a W version, but there's not.) Anyway, I was reading it previously, and there were several things that really struck me and made me feel like maybe I'm not cut out for M.

One of the things he said was that men occasionally like to act like a child, but they don't like to be treated like one. My response when I read it was, "If you're going to occasionally act like a child, then I'm going to occasionally treat you like a child. Don't want to be treated that way, don't act that way." Am I missing something? Is this true? I mean, I would very much like to act like a millionaire occasionally, but I don't want to receive the bill. Is this a true concept for men?

Another bit was about a woman that was very stressed because she woke up late, had to get the kids ready, make lunches, prepare for a meeting she had at 9:00, etc., and she looks over at her H (who has the day off) who is giving her his best bedroom eyes. The suggested approach was that the W was supposed to interrupt her rush, go over to her H, give him 5 minutes of superficial gratification, and promise more of that later, and tell him that she is soooo lucky to have him for a H. Personally, I can't even imagine doing that. I'm sure it would be wonderful for the H, but what is HE doing for HER? She's dealing with requirements and he's not helping at all, but he wants to add more to her plate? My response wouldn't have been so nice. So just wondering, is this really how a W NEEDS to act to keep a H happy?

And another was a repeated point that men have a deep desire to feel needed and respected. It also spent alot of time emphasizing that men are stupid. So how is a W supposed to respect her H when it's apparently a well-known fact that men are stupid? In that light, it talked about men laying on the couch watching TV because they're too stupid to figure out that the baby is crying and needs changing, but if the W would only ask.... Okay, fine, that gets the job done, but where is the respect supposed to come into play? Does a H expect to be respected because he can sit his but on the sofa for 8 hours straight? If he wants to feel needed and respected, what are men doing to create that need and respect?

This is sort of fun, because these points aren't my issues and aren't affecting me at all right now. But I would LOVE to have some feedback. It was written by a guy, and my H has been reading it and says it's right on (curious that he's reading it, since it's written for women.) So I'm just curious on your take. I know the obvious "well men need to help, too," but that wasn't mentioned much in the book (well, because it was written for women.)
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/15/12 04:57 AM
Originally Posted By: Crazyville
Anyway, I was reading it previously, and there were several things that really struck me and made me feel like maybe I'm not cut out for M.

Be careful about this thinking. It's very unfair to say that someone (ourselves included) are not "cut out for" M.

One of my W's "supporters" told her that I wasn't M material. She relayed that information back to me in a way that I realized she truly had bought into that cr@p.

OK, perhaps I'm not cut out to be M to my W... but that doesn't mean that I can have a deep, meaningful, long term R with someone which for all intents and purposes IS an M, even if there is no legal documentation to call it that...

I'm not talking about "deserving" here... I'm talking about the reality that everyone has their ways of being and doing things. That does not make or break us from being cut out to be M. Being M is simply a choice. Not being cut out to be M is the same as saying we aren't cut out to have deep, meaningful, long term Rs...

Anyhow, not meant to beat you with that. I think I know what you mean and I have to say, I kinda started believing the maybe I am not cut out to be M... but... I realized that's not true... one day I will again have a deep, meaningful, long term R with someone.

Why does society think that people who are married must sleep in the same bed... or even in the same room... long ago (and some of this was because of birth control), people had two single/twin beds in the same room. My grandparents actually slept in separate rooms for as long as I can remember... their M lasted over 70 years... They were both happy in their own lives... and respected each other... and... (ewe) were probably intimate more times than I care to think about... smile

Originally Posted By: Crazyville
One of the things he said was that men occasionally like to act like a child, but they don't like to be treated like one.

I just wanted to touch on this, because perhaps it can be misinterpreted...

Of course, I could be misinterpreting what he meant...

I think that men like to be "playful". I think that can be construed or labelled as "acting like a child". Things like pushing a girl we like off the dock. Or giving someone a wedgy... Or putting snow down a girl's back...

We (men) call this harmless fun... in the same way that we can get into an argument with a buddy, even punch them in the head a couple times, and then go back into the house and have a few more beers with them...

I am a responsible, mature adult male.

But I like to have "fun"...

and in having "fun"... I have been accused of being a child...

and to me... that is a hugely disrespectful judgement of me...
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/15/12 01:43 PM
Quote:
Things like pushing a girl we like off the dock. Or giving someone a wedgy... Or putting snow down a girl's back...
I can see that, but then I'm curious how you expect to be treated back? There are other ways to have "fun" that don't involve pestering. I learned with my brother years ago that when you're a girl smaller than the guy that's picking on you (and that is what it is), you're not going to out-do him. And frankly, the guy knows that, which I think is why they're doing it to girls instead of guys. Keeping that sort of "play" amongst the guys and treating a girl like a "lady" will get a whole lot more respect from her. Otherwise, I'm more inclined to respond to you as if you're a child.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/15/12 02:57 PM
I completely understand it from the other side. I'll admit that I see other guys do "stupid, childlike" things and make a judgement on them, considering they aren't "sensitive" to the person they just hazed.

But I can tell you this, without a doubt. When the child is beaten from us... we aren't ever the same... unlikely to be enjoyable company.

Guys need to find a way to be playful and not hurtful. But sometimes... we just can't help ourselves in that moment of spontaneity and opportunity. smile

No different than a girl crying when she gets hurt. That's just so unnecessary.

I understand that there is plenty of opportunity to agree to disagree on this (from any male and female position).

The reality is, like every and any way that we are all human and all the same, in these way most will never truly understand the other side. So it's a matter of accepting and respecting those genitalia differences and not expecting the other sex to be more like us.

Tolerance is one of those great, underused virtues.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/15/12 03:01 PM
Said another way, we can't blame a dog for behaving like a dog...

Too simplistic...?

Well, it just is what it is...

And again, I do understand your position and I do accept and respect it. Agreeing to disagree is another form of tolerance...

Yes...?
Posted By: Harrier Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/15/12 03:13 PM
that book sounds awful and it just reduced people to stereotypes.

I submit that all people can act like children and it is hardly a male vs female problem.

As for the stupid thing, I wouldn't want to be with my W if she thought I was a stupid simpleton who was too dumb to know what my child needs. This kind of cr@p (and it sounds like it) does way more harm to male-female relationships in the long run.

Like the giving into sex/activities on a busy morning. That may work for the short term, but it sounds like a recipe to build up resentment.

Seriously was this book written in the 50s.
Posted By: adinva Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/15/12 03:32 PM
There are plenty of potentially bad books out there, just as there are plenty of well meaning people out there giving you potentially bad advice. The trick is to be open to the right information and filter out the wrong information.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/15/12 03:40 PM
I know you don't want regression therapy, but I just re-read what you said and I find the following very interesting:

Originally Posted By: Crazyville
I learned with my brother years ago that when you're a girl smaller than the guy that's picking on you (and that is what it is), you're not going to out-do him.


You can never take a look at the above and see what that might mean in your life. But the reality is, that is something that you have not let go... and I see how that is reflected in your M.

My D14 loves my D9 to death. So we aren't even talking M/F relationships here. D14 teases and taunts D9 and would never expect (and can't actually imagine) how that will affect D9 in the future, if D9 allows it to. I am constantly working her through that.

And further on the opposite spectrum, I had no male relatives my age, so between my sister and my female cousins, I was that "favourite" male relative that they could tease. Possibly taking out all their anger at being teased by other boys, including their brothers... In fact, even my aunts joined in on that fun...

It affected me for probably 15 years or so... and then I worked through it and truly let it go...

So as Harrier says, this isn't just a M/F thing, although the actually behaviours might be...

We tease and taunt to meet a need. It could be jealousy... it could be done in the name of love... but unless someone is actually doing something to intentionally break our leg or prevent us from having children... well... some people just don't think... but a lot of stuff is intended to be harmless fun...

Again, to repeat what Harrier said:
Originally Posted By: Harrier
I wouldn't want to be with my W if she thought I was a stupid simpleton who was too dumb to know what my child needs. This kind of cr@p (and it sounds like it) does way more harm to male-female relationships in the long run.


Maybe there's a better way to express that inner child. And there's also other ways to indicate that there are better ways for someone to express that inner child.

Everything is a two way street.

When disrespected, it appears so normal to retaliate with more disrespect. An ugly spiral.

Change the course...
Posted By: Harrier Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/15/12 03:55 PM
Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem


So as Harrier says, this isn't just a M/F thing, although the actually behaviours might be...

We tease and taunt to meet a need. It could be jealousy... it could be done in the name of love... but unless someone is actually doing something to intentionally break our leg or prevent us from having children... well... some people just don't think... but a lot of stuff is intended to be harmless fun...

Again, to repeat what Harrier said:
Originally Posted By: Harrier
I wouldn't want to be with my W if she thought I was a stupid simpleton who was too dumb to know what my child needs. This kind of cr@p (and it sounds like it) does way more harm to male-female relationships in the long run.


Maybe there's a better way to express that inner child. And there's also other ways to indicate that there are better ways for someone to express that inner child.

Everything is a two way street.

When disrespected, it appears so normal to retaliate with more disrespect. An ugly spiral.

Change the course...


Perhaps you've been reading too many self-help books. I wasn't talking about my "innner child" I was talking about my son.

CV gave this example from the book. In that light, it talked about men laying on the couch watching TV because they're too stupid to figure out that the baby is crying and needs changing, but if the W would only ask....
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/15/12 03:57 PM
oh? I was reading with my old eyes... My bad...

*mental note: no more words into Harrier's mouf*
Posted By: Crazyville Re: When it's a one-way street...part 4 - 03/15/12 06:49 PM
Thinking I should start a new post.... not sure what the limit is.

Part 5
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