As I said on my first post only a few days ago, I am new to DB and marital separation (two months now.) My H has taken our 4-year old daughter out a few times on his own. Last night, she broke down into tears about having to keep secrets which are instructions from her father. The last time my H took her out of the house for some “quality time” they went ice skating. She came home with a single red rose, which is neither nor there, bought by her father. Last night my H asked our daughter if she still liked her rose to which she answered yes and can she have “the other one.” I saw the head shaking and look of disapproval from my H towards our daughter who suddenly frowned and clammed up. After he left she told me again that they spent time together with “daddy’s special friend” and he asked her not to tell me about it. The first time was during the first time my H took our daughter for an overnight stay. Apparently the OW stayed in the hotel room with them, and she was invited to join them on the bed to watch movies. (Yikes, an adult stranger in the bed with a child.)
While I am not delighted by the fact that my H is already exposing our child to a stranger, I am far more disturbed by the fact that he is asking her to a keep a confidence that she does not understand why, not to mention the fact that during these outing the OW and my H are being affectionate with each other in front of our child.
I am working on the 180 methods (and only for a few days now.) While I don’t want to jeopardize my hard work, I don’t think I can stand by watching our child being manipulated and put into adult situations as a preschooler. It is simply wrong. How would anyone feel hearing the words out of child’s mouth “I have to keep a secret and it hurts me inside?” Any thoughts on how to approach my H about stopping this inappropriate behavior without taking steps back in the 180 process?
My apolgies for posting this topic again but a veteran member suggested I post in Newcomers.
Welcome princess. Have you read divroce remedy. please do if you haven't. Post often as you will in moderation for a bit. I will post the 37 rules from Sandi for you to start. It is time to focus on you and not what your H is doing. Others with more experinece will chime in soon. Hang in there
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.
30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes
Thank you.
I have read the Divorce Remedy, and that is how I learned about the 180 and LRT methods. I am working on them already but it really has been a little over a week.
I am going to talk with my therapist tonight about how to address my concerns about our child with H in a responsible and respectful way. I totally get why he is doing this; he wants power and control over his destiny, and he wants to bring our D along for the ride. He thinks I am a mean person and I am incapable of being nice to anyone. He is trying to create a happy little family for himself. He is manipulating our child and has been for a while, even before he walked out the door. No matter what I am always going to be our child’s mom, and showing her a new woman now or even down the road is not going to change that.
I would love to hear your thoughts on how to DB in this situation and after the concern is voiced.
I totally agree. However - I have had many issues on which I fundamentally disagreed with my H and tried to work on with him to fix the harm I believed he was causing. I have learned through counseling to try to have conversations instead where I own my beliefs and accept the limitations that they are my beliefs and not necessarily universal truths, and I ask him questions about what he believes to find out where he's coming from.
I used to fear having these conversations because the way I came across was that I knew I was right and he was wrong, and knew he was going to get mad or think I was trying to control him, and/or did not know if I was going to be successful or not in persuading him to the "correct" point of view. All wrong.
He has as much belief that he's doing the right thing. You might start by thinking about what he's trying to accomplish. Tell him you have reason to believe D's being asked to keep secrets (if you can do that without tattling on her that would enable her to continue telling you things if this continues to happen). Ask him why he thinks she should not be able to tell you anything? Is he trying to avoid getting you mad or avoid having to deal with you freaking out on him? Can you reassure him that you want to be able to discuss this with him calmly?
Does he disagree with you about whether it's right to be intimate with a lover in front of her? Would he be OK with you doing the same? Tell him you want to be open to the truth so he can share what he's doing and not keep it a secret - you may not like it but you would appreciate knowing it anyway. Try to open up the communication between you two because you're going to have to have a relationship coparenting and need to be able to talk about hard things.
For D, I would recommend telling her she did the right thing and to keep telling you anything she wants. You're the parent and you can make sure it's OK for her to tell you anything. It's really too much for a little kid to cope with having to "take care of" her parents - help daddy not get in trouble, help mommy not be sad. Take that off her shoulders. We taught our kids from age tiny that if anyone ever told them not to tell their parents something, that they should say OK and then immediately tell their parents. It was the only time we told them it was ever ok to lie. We said it would always be OK to tell us a secret.
Good luck to you, will be thinking of you.
princessP - you're in good company here.
just a question.. why were they in a hotel room? where did they all sleep?
as a mom.. i see red flags! i would be worried about the "secrets" too. what happens if something more serious happens w/ a neighbour or relative and your D has been taught to keep "secrets"?
i don't know what else to offer right now. i feel when it comes to your kids.. sometimes you just have to go by instincts.
hang in there. keep posting!
My H does not talk to me at all. He comes into our house, plays with our child or picks her up to take her out. I get a "hi" and maybe a quick pat on the back (less than what you see on Sunday night football.) Oddly enough, even the pat on the back is a downgrade from the nice hug he was giving me for over month after he left. Not sure what to make of that, perhaps he is adjusting to his new found freedom.
Frankly, I have no idea where he even lives, in an apartment on his own or with someone. Neither of us have filed for D; although I have consulted a L on several occasions to protect myself financially. He has only said to me once that the house we bought together in Sept. 2011 has to be sold; it's too expensive (agree with that.) Aside from the night he left and a week later when he came to get some of his clothes and toiletries (he went ballistic on me, screaming, no hitting) he has only communicated his decision to end our marriage through my therapist who he knows too. Maybe the papers will arrive any day now. Maybe then I won’t feel in limbo. What I mean by limbo for me is whether or not I move out (after the house is sold) and do the DBing from a distance. I have to consider where I enroll our child next September for school and extra-curricular activities; let our child have lasting friendships somewhere; figure out whether or not I commute to work for a little while until I find a new job or move closer to where I work currently…lots of aspects of life are in limbo.
Right now, my H has to borrow my car to take our D out for the day; he drives a fancy sports car (given to him by my father no less.) He waits until the last minute to tell me where they are going, and I have to ask most times. Once he gets her out then I get last minute emails/texts saying they will be even later than originally requested.
To Barely Floating, my H took our D out towards my sister-in-law’s for what was originally presented to me as a day of swimming (an old family – his family not mine – tradition of taking a hotel room for the day to use the indoor pool.) Then it turned into an overnight in the hotel. I knew he would be drinking so I let it go and agreed to letting her stay overnight. I only know what my 4-year old told me so I don’t know where the OW finally laid her head for the night. In regular society when a man lays down with a minor-aged child it is considered deviant behavior. Women should be held to the same standard; my H or the other OW should have said “that would not be appropriate.” Seriously, how would my H or anyone out there perceive my inviting a strange man to lay down with a little girl? It creeps me out thinking about it.
The secret keeping is very dangerous, especially in the day and age we all live in now. How many children out there keep secrets, and when something really awful happens they don’t share because they were taught not to say anything or some form of punishment or disapproval would go their way.
Never in all of my 19 years with my H would have thought he had the capacity to manipulate our child or anyone. He is under the influence of his new found control, wealth, and promiscuity and is drunk with power. Sadly, our child is a pawn to him and he continues to believe that he is the victim.
Despite these serious lapses in judgment I still very much love my H and know that he is the one for me, and that is why I will DB until the end. I just want our child out of this entanglement.
I put the question out to the Newcomers, veteran DBers, the moderators, and coaches, how do you manage to DB successfully and keep your kids out of the manipulations from the spouse who did the leaving?
As I have said in my recent posts I am very new to the DB Online Community. I have read The Divorce Remedy so no need to list the 37 guidelines. There are a lot of threads to read through, and I have read many of them in my short week plus here. One thing I wonder about the Community is there anyone or more people who feel time is not going to work in your favor?
In my case, my H walked out two months ago. He wants to sell the house we bought in Sept 2011. I agree it is a financial albatross, and there is no way I can afford it on my own even as a career woman making a decent living. My choices after it is sold are to move almost 100 miles away to be closer to my parents and friends who can support me emotionally and help me with raising our preschool-aged D; or move 20 miles into the big city where I work fulltime and could maintain a caregiver situation. In either scenario I feel the palpable message to my H is “yes, I agree we are done and see ya” versus my quietly working on the M. Consider it from the spouse’s perspective who does not know what we DBers are up to. Are they seeing the concession to sell the family home, move away whatever the distance, etc. as prelude to D?
I also have to consider our child who is only 4. It will soon be time to re-enroll her in preschool. I’m not a Rockefeller so I can’t enroll her in one school to only enroll somewhere else (and lose the enrollment fees) because the house sold, and we moved away (far or close.) We have new neighbors with three kids around our D’s age. I use the winter weather as an excuse to not engage in play dates. What would be the point in having everything change for our D, even new friends, when there is so much practical limbo for her (and me but I am an adult and understand what is happening, to an extent.)
Anyone else been in a fight against time?
From other thread, stick to this one please until you get to 100 posts
PP,
Please take your time to make decisions that are right for you and your child.
CAT is giving you great advice.
You have the ability to forge what is right for you and your D4, that is what should be your prime focus right now.
Do it from a place of calm, you will make the best descions that way.
Hi PP, I'm not in the same situation you are but early on I came up with many different versions of what I "had" to do. I did none of them and I'n happy I took the time to think and not allow my decisions to be coerced by my H's actions or what friends thought I should do.
I did consult an attorney and then decided to make no life-altering decisions from the emotional state I was in.
It does take time to work through the emotional storm of this.
My counselor used to talk me down when I added hyperbole and imagined threats to the real resentments I had against my H. She would ask me questions and ask H questions and I would realize that I was assuming things and getting all panicky to drive up my outrage about what he was doing.
In reality, H's "girlfriend" relaxing with the child on a hotel room bed in the daytime to watch tv is probably a very low threat to your child. Outrageous and hurtful to you, yes, but you won't get him on your side or talking to you about it if you exaggerate and don't appear rational to him.
You need to get him talking to you reasonably about your daughter because if he expects to be divorced he'll be coparenting with you. It's time to start now, by keeping clear channels of communication so you both can agree on what is best for your daughter. Ask him if he's willing to do that.
At the same time, you probably need a lawyer's input now. You can get a free consultation that can be very informative if you don't spend time crying or exaggerating. Go in with specific questions about what your rights are and how you can make sure D is safe. You might need to draw up a visitation agreement with H.
If anyone can speak to this unnerving situation of having put our four-year old daughter in bed with a strange woman. Since my H walked out two months, we have not any conversation/sit down with her as to why Daddy does not live in the house anymore. Heck, my H and I haven’t even spoken. As far as our D4 knows he is working (given his profession it’s not uncharacteristic) albeit this highly out of the ordinary to have him gone EVERY night for two months. She has no clue that he does not technically live with us anymore and we are not a family.
In general society, if a man (even if invited by the mom) were to lay down in a bed with a minor child they would be questioned about their morals or maybe called a sexual deviant for not having better or good judgment for this action. As a woman myself and a strong one at that, women should be held to the same standard. I think my H would go ballistic if I put our D4 in bed with another man and me. While there is no formula for when new SOs should be introduced to your children, I would imagine that throwing them into a bed with your kids is not an appropriate first encounter.
Anyone I share this scenario with, even other dads, are completely creeped out by the thought. What must our child be thinking.
Any advice?
Princess it has been a few days since you posted, tell us what is going on, so we can help.
I saw my therapist on Monday night. She suggested a succinct email to my H addressing the most critical (at this time) parenting issues was the best way to go. She was agreement about the inappropriateness of H asking D4 to keep secrets about who was joining them for their quality time; she also advised me to bring up setting a set schedule for his visits, and him sharing more information about D4’s whereabouts when she would be with him. Both of us agreed that this will be an all-out war and I should send the message when I am ready for his wrath.
The one area we do not see eye-to-eye H’s exposing our D4 to other women, so quickly. We have not even had “the talk” with D4. Why my therapist thinks it is okay is not clear to me, even though I have asked her outright. Her perspective is that D4 needs her father and should learn to deal with him despite his shortcomings. Moreover, she feels this particular woman is going to be around for a while because a.) she has her claws in and won’t easily let go; b.) and he is enjoying the freedom he didn’t have before during the other PA/EA.
Honestly, if you presented this scenario to my H two years ago he would have thought the husband/father was off the deep end. I think the first affair changed his moral compass and was the beginning of his mental and emotional demise. I feel divided because I still love H and wish I could save our family but a large part of me fears that this is beyond salvaging. I only ever wanted a good and happy family (not perfect.)
Adinva, I am taking your advice and writing what I hope will be an even-tempered/toned and sincere email to H about our D4. Thank you for the levelheaded perspective.
Is this an 180 for myself?
Thank you all for the support. I hope more from the DB Community chime in, especially the parents.
I don’t want to rock the 180 boat with a resentment-filled dialogue or written communication. With that said, our D4 is suffering in this situation. She is showing signs of severe anxiety. Our once happy go-lucky and innocent child is seemingly frightened and trepidatious about what she can and cannot say, even about day-to-day things such as how her day at (nursery) school was. It needs to be addressed and perhaps the best way to do it is have this conversation in the presence of a child psychologist. I can only hope that he would be amenable to family therapy, if nothing else. Whatever happens in our adult world kids have to be protected from as much as possible.
I am disappointed, for lack of a better word, in my H for putting her in this position. Even my therapist feels it is an unconscionable burden to place on a child. He is in a selfish place right now. There is nothing I have done or will do that I will ask our D to cover up for me.
As I am a new member of the DB Online Community I posted my story in someone else’s thread. Sorry. I didn’t start in the appropriate place.
Here is my story.
My H walked out the night before my birthday early in January of this year. He said that I have been “mean to him for 20 years” and we have sexless marriage. We have been together for 19 years (since college,) and have been married for the last 9. For 12 years we have weathered the hardships of his education and training to become a physician. In that time, I supported us financially, emotionally, and managed every aspect of our lives to keep everything moving.
We hardly fought except about the severe lack intimacy now and then, until our child was born and things got very bad. I suffered from severe post-partum after suffering a horrible delivery and being overwhelmed as a mom and keeping all of the above home management and a full-time career still going. The sexless relationship started a few years after we first got together. Looking back I feel I lost interest because I felt that I was on the back burner to his career goals. As an only child I craved attention even though I kept telling myself and others I could handle the life of a lonely doctor’s W. When the post-partum set in I have to admit that I did get VERY frustrated; I felt I was still doing everything on my own and now added single mom to the list. After some great individual therapy I got my relationship with our child back on track; it was really awful for the first year and half.
In that time of mending, my H started his first job (post training) and had an A with a nurse. Sounds so cliché. After finding out about it nine months later, we went to couples therapy with someone who did not suit us. My biggest regret is not finding a better suited therapist after five months of wasted time, money, and effort.
Last week my H went to see my individual therapist to tell her (instead of me directly) that there is no possibility for reconciliation and he cannot understand why I am surprised about this. He repeated that he has been unhappy for a very long time, cannot take the sexless marriage, and I am “mean and nasty.” He comes over to the house (yes, we bought an extravagant house in the last six months and even talked of having another child) to see our child. He is cordial, and even gives me a hug and a peck on the top of my head. I know he loves me still and this is hard for him. I have evidence there is someone else in his life already, not sure how long it has been going on or if it is someone new or the previous person. He lives somewhere close by but I do not know where. He has shrouded himself in mystery; I guess he is enjoying the control which he felt he never had in our relationship.
I do not want to give up on our marriage, it is simply not in my DNA. I read Divorce Remedy in the last few days and have the 37 guidelines next to my desk. While the concepts are pragmatic, it seems they are well out of my reach to execute. My therapist is trying to convince to move on with my own life because my H will never come back; he is committed to his decision according to my therapist. In the last two weeks I put an end to my pity party; I am wearing make-up again and even doing my hair in new ways. Small differences that everyone is noticing even my H. Time is working against me, we cannot hold onto the house for too much longer. In order to keep working full time and have child care I either need to move 100 miles away to my parents or 20 miles into the big city nearby (where I work). I do not want to ever send the message that I am giving up or I am done but practicality is what I am faced with.
Since my first posting at the end of Feb, I have set my meta-goals:
1. Reflection on what I have contributed to our M (both good and bad.)
2. Being a more supportive parent to our D4
3. Improving for myself and my family
4. Working towards my H considering R.
I won’t list all of the bite-size steps here.
Interestingly enough my jazzed up look and aloofness seem to be back-firing. Either my H is getting angry that I look good or he is so much in lust with this new woman he can’t see any of the 180s (even minimally.) I can’t go entirely dark because we share a child. Any thoughts?
From other thread, please stick to this one until 100 posts.
Adinva, I am taking your advice and writing what I hope will be an even-tempered/toned and sincere email to H about our D4. Thank you for the levelheaded perspective.
Is this an 180 for myself?
Suggestion, post it here before you send it.
Remember the 24-48 hour rule, do not be too quick to answer him.
Learn patience.
How long have some of you been DBing? What keeps you going?
How long have some of you been DBing? What keeps you going?
Well you can see my registration date and I was on other boards before this one.
I keep going because, do you have another alternative?
When you figure out what it is we can write a book.
There is only one way to go over a mountain. One step at a time.
No shortcuts or magic wands will make it better.
But if you can enjoy the trek as you go then it is not so bad.
I've been dbing for about nine months. What keeps me going is that I look at what alternatives there are and think this is the best. I am...
- improving myself
- addressing my shortcomings
- conceding to what is outside my control
- giving my H the space he wants and needs
I could be...
- arguing and fighting pointlessly
- giving up without trying
- acting like a victim
I started posting here full of pain and outrage. My outrage spread beyond what H did that was really wrong to include all kinds of things he did that were more like differences in parenting styles. To me the OW thing is a negotiable - it would be nice to be able to dictate that he can't be around any OW while your daughter's with him. Wouldn't it be better to ask him if he's willing to set some guidelines you'll both agree to and follow? If the guideline is "not till you're serious" well, maybe he is serious with that other person already, at least in his own mind. Maybe he thought that was entirely appropriate. People H knows, but who are strangers to you, will be a part of his life, and therefore your daughter's, in the future. It's a fact.
If there's a legitimate reason she's not safe with him then you'll need to work with a lawyer and the court system to fight for custody and require supervised visitation. You need to know what's legally OK and what's not.
Now, the secret-keeping thing is a real problem for her safety and wellbeing, and the damage is evident in your daughter's new anxious behavior. You say he's not talking to you, and that's not acceptable - you have some control over this because you control his access to his daughter. If he's going to take her from you he needs to talk to you first about where she'll be going and who she'll be with, and you need to share with him your concern about asking her to keep secrets. If he won't talk reasonably with you about it ask if he'd be willing to meet together with a neutral third party like a therapist you mutually agree on.
Good luck, will be thinking of you.
PrincessP,
This is my first post. I'm in a very similar situation. My husband let me know there was someone else (actually he actually texted me a mssg meant for her) on February 7, and moved out February 15. I have no idea where he is, all I know is that he is somewhere in NYC. He left me and our S4 and seems to have no feelings of regret or guilt or anything. He said he wants to go where the wind takes him and is tired of paying bills. Very MLC. And I might add that we both work full time, though while I love my job he hates his (something that bothers him). He's had depression problems for a long time, but this time it is all MY fault. Like he wants to punish me, but in reality the one who gets punished the most is our son. When I cry it is really on behalf of my son (and I would NEVER cry in front of H). I've been DBing for perhaps 3 weeks, seriously for the past week following a telephone consultation. I have moments when I feel I am going insane (our finances aren't the best), moments when I am hopeful, and moments when I wonder if I can ever forgive him. I'm from Europe and am seriously thinking about moving home w my child. Oh, I fear this is going to take a LOOONG time.
For the ladies in DB, have you read "Getting Through To the Man You Love: The No-Nonsense, No-Nagging Guide for Women" by Michele? Is it helpful to read if the W is the LBS?
PrincessP,
This is my first post. I'm in a very similar situation. My husband let me know there was someone else (actually he actually texted me a mssg meant for her) on February 7, and moved out February 15. I have no idea where he is, all I know is that he is somewhere in NYC. He left me and our S4 and seems to have no feelings of regret or guilt or anything. He said he wants to go where the wind takes him and is tired of paying bills. Very MLC. And I might add that we both work full time, though while I love my job he hates his (something that bothers him). He's had depression problems for a long time, but this time it is all MY fault. Like he wants to punish me, but in reality the one who gets punished the most is our son. When I cry it is really on behalf of my son (and I would NEVER cry in front of H). I've been DBing for perhaps 3 weeks, seriously for the past week following a telephone consultation. I have moments when I feel I am going insane (our finances aren't the best), moments when I am hopeful, and moments when I wonder if I can ever forgive him. I'm from Europe and am seriously thinking about moving home w my child. Oh, I fear this is going to take a LOOONG time.
evas start your own thread so we can give you your own advice
Evas,
Wow, are out stories are strikingly similar with a few variances. I technically do not know about the OW. I only know through our D3, having met her on three occasions/dates. I am making educated guesses with receipts for dinners, etc. and of course, the nagging question of where is he living without spending money on rent…with someone. I suspect he is the next county over in Northern NJ. (Hey, you and I might be in the same area in addition to the same situation.) I have been DBing for a few short weeks too. I understand it feels like an eternity already. I look at our D3 (tomorrow is her bday, turning 4) and I feel sick to my stomach for her; I wish there is something I could do to make her not suffer. I want to scream from the top of my lungs at my H to come home and be the man, husband and father he can be. Like you, everything is my fault and I am the “bad guy.” So far my 180s have been to look my best, be disarmingly nice to my H, and be the best mom. They sound like tall orders and they are but each one has a stash of mini 180s in them. For example, the looking good, I have started curling my hair; wearing eye make-up; pulling out my old clothes to wear (which fit from losing weight…couldn’t eat for weeks after H left); and wearing my favorite lingerie (for myself.) What are you doing?
PrincessP
I’m on DB a lot today – sometimes I get bogged down at work and don’t always have the time to write a thoughtful post. I still peruse the other forums for my own research. Is there an example, preferably a success story or even some positive news, about a DBer who came back from/coming back from being the LSD spouse and working on personality flaws? I feel that many of the anecdotes tend to hone in on one major problem/issue and not have more about the complexity of the situations. My H told me a lot of things he could not tolerate from me anymore when he left.
I am trying to be more outgoing, positive, attractive (in physical upkeep), and convey a level of sexuality. I like it, and am feeling more (on many levels) but sadly there is no one to share those feelings or sensations with.
PrincessP,
I've lost a lot of weight (by default really, because I had no appetite in the first weeks of this mess), I've changed how I dress, I work out. I'm not asking any questions, I am not telling H about anything that's going on in my life (not that he'd ask anyway), I never call or text, and I sometimes don't answer calls or texts either and when I do I set a timer for over an hour before I respond, which I usually do with less than 3 words if possible. When H comes over, I act upbeat and happy and we laugh, but I make sure I always leave the room or the conversation first and I try to do so when it's at peak (ie when we are laughing or having a good time with S). I try to not take his baits, I don't answer questions that are loaded, but remain silent. I feel that when I leave the room/apt when he actually wants me to stay, it pisses him off but he can't point his finger at me, because I am not angry or sad or accusative (he wishes I were, I can feel that). It's like a game. I don't know, but right now I feel I can give this MLC and affair over the summer, and then I will see how I feel and what's going on and take another decision then. If I do my part, the OW will hopefully look bad (because H wants to spend a lot of time with S and I suppose at some time it will make her more demanding of his time and affection). And demanding of him I will NOT be. It's not easy (esp. since I DO depend on him for $$), but whatever the outcome, I try to remember that this is not MY crisis, it is HIS - although it spills over into my and our son's life. I have to just try to make sure my own little private boat is watertight enough for the ride and that I am moving on no matter what. The truth is that I am in a better place than H is. I'm lucky because I am not particularly interested in the OW and I am not very jealous by nature. Oh, I also try to take this painful time as a time for introspection, this is a lesson to learn from. I'm very impatient, so this is a great time for me to learn to be patient and to learn to SHUT UP. What a long, rambling post! Are you far from NYC? We could have an MLC get together with the kids.
Sounds like you and I are on the same "diet." It's our D's birthday weekend so we are hanging out all together for her; she wants nothing more than Mommy and Daddy with her. I don't blame her one bit. I'm trying to look my best. H wanted to know what my plans are since I am dressed and wearing make-up (a 180 from my usual weekend look.) Someone very close to me who has been in my shoes has given me some great advice and it's more or less on par with MDW's advice. She says I sound more positive all the time. H wants fantasy woman - intelligent, funny, cook, maid, SupeMom, and sex kitten. At least I can look all those things even if I don't feel it all the time.
Over the last few weeks I am really starting to see where we went wrong in our M and what I did to contribute to that situation. No more, I am done with that! I would have walked away from me too. I am going to live a life that keeps me, my child and hopefully one day my H fulfilled and feeling loved.
He is noticing my 180s now and then. Maybe he even wonders what is going on. He knows me well enough though I do worry if he wonders about the reason, meaning does he think these are genuine changes or lures to get him back. Only time will tell so I have to be patient.
I'm right in Bergen County. You, NJ, NY or CT?
PP,
Good for you! I've also thought a lot about our R, and I know I have taken H for granted, I know we've both worked too much, and spent whatever time we've had together always with S. Never any time just the two of us. I also realize that I've been like his mom, always coming with advice and so on. I am perfectly aware that I've done my share of baddies. But I am willing to change that, I really am willing to work, and hard, for this M. It pains me that he just walked out so quickly when there's a child involved. And he really loves his S, they are very close.
Everyone sees how I've changed, so I am sure H sees it, too, but he doesn't comment. Funny thing everyone says I look so wonderful and happy - if only they knew...
He was here today, took S to a bday party and hung out here afterwards. We sat down and talked about little things (not about R or future or OW or where he's staying obviously). My DB is to act happy but a bit distracted, and to leave the room when things are nice, even if it's just to pick something up in the kitchen. Busy, busy, busy. I give him as much space as possible here at home. He wanted to come back tomorrow, but I said we had other plans then, so he suggested Tuesday and I said that wasn't very good either as S has piano lesson and recital later, which is the truth. I want him to understand that S and I have a full and interesting life that goes on in spite of him. It takes an enormous amount of energy and will power for me to have him come here, when he leaves I'm exhausted and drink a glass of wine. Well, I think I deserve that.
I bought some new lingerie today, stuff I would've never bought before. It makes me feel good, even though I'm the only one who sees it.
I'm in Westchester, 30 minutes from NYC. We should meet, make plans, and exchange ideas on how to get these men back - it's a painful process, why not try to make it a bit fun?
Princess, I quickly went through your thread as you did ask me a question in golf mom's thread about retrouvaille.
Yes, it was a very positive experience for us but it has to be the rigt time. And to be honest, I think even for me it was not the right time yet, altough at least it did make a significant change to our R. Look for my stories in both midlife crisis, and in piecing. The story of my retrouvaille experience is in my midlife crisis thread.
You are so early in this, and one thing I can say: it will not solve itself quickly. Both of you have a lot to learn, and I could see that you are learning quickly. Who knows, your H is also undergoing his own discoveries while away from you.
Please feel free to read my threads, I did post a lot of my struggles, and like many here, it was and still is the most painful time, and yet, it has also taught me so much and mostimportantly, has brought me closer to God.
Keep DBing, no matter how counter intuitive it is, it does work. And get rid of that therapist who is telling you to go on with your life if you want your M restored.
A few things to remember is this: You can only control yourself. No matter how much you say, or do, your H will do what he wants. Concentrate on yourself. Do not talk to him about the R. the 37 rules? they are spot on.
Detachment is the key, but it is hard to learn. I have been trying for almost two years now, and every month I get better at it, but still am not fully there! My H stayed at home for all the time that the whole sitch was happening, and it was incredible hard to not care.
YOu are in the best place to be though, as here you will find out that you are not alone.
Take care and hang in there!
The birthday weekend for our officially D4 was up and down. She really only wanted to be with Mommy and Daddy and that’s what I wanted to give her. At one point H asked if he could take D4 out to see her aunts and cousins. I gave a measured “no, this is a special weekend for us.” H is taking D4 away next weekend so she can see her grandmother who is coming to town (staying at SIL’s.)
H was not his best this weekend. I guess that I was expecting more from him since “he loves D4 more than anything.” I know he had a long rough week at work but that is no excuse to nap during visits. Yes, folks H naps when comes to the house. It doesn’t happen every time, mostly on weekends.
I was naughty this weekend. I had a chance to get my hands on information and confirmed there is definitely a OW. H lives with her now, and has been since last month some time I would guess because I have yet to see a rent charge for his own place. H must have met her some time ago because the address I found was the same one he had a parking violation for in January. So H lied to my therapist when he had a session with her in February and said he was not involved with anyone...I’m not that stupid, dear. I would be curious to know if H will bring OW with him and D4 to weekend visiting with mom, sisters, and other family. Might raise an eyebrow or two from his proper Midwestern WASP family.
Not that this serves any purpose, but for the macabre out there, OW is twelve years younger than me and of course Asian. He likes the ladies from that continent (heck, I’m from that continent.) OW is totally infatuated with my H; their text message exchanges read like notes you pass to your GF/BF in high school. She has no baggage so no wonder she is appealing. She probably got tired of waiting for my H Friday night and Saturday since he was spending it with D4 (and me) – hello, it is our child’s birthday. H didn’t come at all yesterday, some lame excuse about work taking longer than he wanted it to. Right, again I am not stupid, dear.
Oh, everyone will like this one. Another bit of information I found was that our MC, from a year ago who we only saw for barely six months, apparently told H during an individual session (we both had two individual sessions each) that “you need to get out of this M, what are you doing with your W?” Really? MC tell people who are there for therapy “to get out?” MCs want to make money; it is their business to drag out the C process for as long as possible so they can make money. Why would any MC tell a spouse at practically the outset of C to “get out now?” H heard what he wanted. H wanted out a long time before we went to MC and the PA/EA he had for months before was evidence. H dropped out of our marriage when he got me C for my postpartum – I became someone else’s problem from that day on so he could be free to live out his needs.
Not sure which stage of MLC H is in now. Where are the active links to the stages and other resources? I tried going through the archives and it only redirects you the main DB forums page.
Eva,
Getting together is a great idea. I am trying to figure out how to privately contact you.
Any thoughts?
Not sure which stage of MLC H is in now. Where are the active links to the stages and other resources? I tried going through the archives and it only redirects you the main DB forums page.
Go back to the post that you made on Golfmoms thread to angel and all the links are three posts above yours.
That post should explain it all.
Thank you. By the way, I see most of the resources or posts are from Snodderly and Hearts Blessing. Did DB work for them?
PP,
I'm sorry you found out about OW and that it should have to happen over your daughter's bday weekend, but at least now you know. I found out, like I wrote here, through a text H sent to me but which was meant for her. She is older than H (who is 39) and younger than me (I'm 43). But H always preferred "older" women, so no surprise there. Before I found out about DB, I pried, found her phone number and called her, which now I realize I should have never done. H is totally enamored with her. It's all very MLC.
I've been doing great at DBing lately. I feel very angry with H at times, but have decided not to act on that. I used to talk, talk, talk and now I don't say anything. I do wonder though if H feels that "Oh, she's fine" and just enjoys OW even more when he sees that I seem perfectly OK? But NOT DBing obviously doesn't work, so what other choices do I have?
Perhaps the veterans on this board know how people can get in touch with each other privately here? I have no clue. I would like so much to have someone to talk to about these things over coffee, someone who understands. I've told very few of our friends, and I have found that few understand what an MLC really is (I certainly didn't until just weeks ago), and most of the friends I've told have told me to just leave H and move on, so I'm very careful to whom I speak and what I say. Though you and I don't know each other we are in the same boat, with children the same age, and not too far away. I sometimes get a bit depressed, all my family is in Europe and I am currently waiting for my citizenship (H doesn't know that I applied). I'm seriously thinking about going back home once I get the papers. The sad thing is that I love it here, and have a job I feel passionate about. And of course I still love H and believe our M is worth saving. Oh what a mess this is! And our poor S4 in the middle of it.
Thank you. By the way, I see most of the resources or posts are from Snodderly and Hearts Blessing.
Did DB work for them?
YES
Perhaps the veterans on this board know how people can get in touch with each other privately here?
There is the alternate universe that is a social networking site but it is against the TOS to exchange that information on this site.
I can tell you that I live in the same county as you, at the very Northern western most part of it, so I must be very close to you.
Keep reading and studying what has been written in the past and maybe that will help you.
EVAS you should start your own thread IMHO.
PrincessP also in reference to my last post the two people mentioned had very different results from DB'ing but I would classify both of them as being highly successful.
Hope that helps.
I did start my own thread in Newcomers, I just don't know what happened to it.
Cadet, are you in Westchester or in NJ?
I did start my own thread in Newcomers, I just don't know what happened to it.
Cadet, are you in Westchester
No you do not have your own thread, you have been posting on PrincesP thread and I live in NY.
I did start my own thread in Newcomers, I just don't know what happened to it.
No you do not have your own thread, you have been posting on PrincesP thread
Edit to above - Just counted your posts and you only have 6 posts but it says you should have 7 so maybe the missing one is your thread.
Could be stuck in moderation some where. IDK
The anonymity is very nice but to find like-minded friends in what is a time when most of your family and friends are telling you get out, cut off your leg and get on with life, it would be nice to hear a voice when you are alone in the darkness of your bedroom. I go to bed at 8 pm when my D4 does, she can't sleep alone anymore. Against all of my practicalities I let her sleep in our bed now. I find myself waking at 4 am thinking, praying, with a headache sometimes, but always waking then. In the Chinese culture 4 is an unlucky number (I am not Chinese by the way.) A little superstitious now and then, yes. I won't go into all of the coincidences of the number 4.
Back to the point...happy to meet any DB friends for support. Not that we are experts but friendships are always nice. You know your true friends because they are there for you through the dark times.
My S is also showing signs of regression. But only with me, at bedtime mostly. When H comes around it's all fun and games, H never gets to see anything bad, and I don't tell him, because I know he wouldn't believe me anyway, or think it's just one of my ploys to get him to feel guilty or force him to come back. I sometimes feel I cannot say anything to him. When he asks about S, which he frequently does in txt mssgs, I always reply the same way: "S is fine, everything's fine!". Though obviously it is not. Whatever. H is coming over tomorrow morning. I just dread when he does. Initially he was angry with me, but that has changed. Now he's just as chipper as can be. The affair is blossoming I suppose. Perhaps I sound jealous, but I am not really. I too wake up very early (but I always did). The mornings and days are usually fine, but the evenings I feel a bit lonely and depressed. I have a couple of friends who check in on me (and talk nasty about H and his actions), but they too must feel tired of hearing the same story: Nothing new, and I am still sitting here. I am trying to learn how to be patient (being impatient is one of my biggest flaws) - boy, is it hard. Sometimes I wonder how I am able to work and function and put meals on the table and get myself and S up and going every day in amidst all this mess. Oh well, this too shall pass. I take S to family mass in the city on Sundays, that helps. And S prays every night for Dadda to come back home.
Seriously, Eva, our lives are in parallel, even down to the kids moping to us, giving Dad the smiles and happy show, and the praying to God they return. My H is also avoiding me more and more, almost like my looking better is making him mad. Through it H maintains a light as air attitude, also due to the stroking of ego and other things by OW.
We have to get together or at least talk. I work in the City every day so we could meet after work one day for a coffee or whatever. I just need a little notice so I can make arrangments with the nanny to stay longer.
Eva, how did the visit go this morning?
Thank you for pointing me in the right direction, Cadet. I read through all the links in the last 24 hours...Wow! My goodness I had guessed MLC but wasn’t sure since my H is only 38. There are also WAS attributes to this scenario. Looking back over the last couple of years, even before I read the links, I can see we are still in REPLAY.
H is on his second PA/EA but this time he actually moved out for her and left his family in the dust. The first one was a test; she was too much in the same situation as him: unhappy marriages, similar professional industry, kids, in their 30s. She gave him attention and he tried to recreate our history with her while never leaving the family to do it. This one is 27 and does not have the same baggage (as far as I can tell.) I don’t know anything about her except a first name, age and ethnicity. H is definitely reliving adolescence when he was unbelievably rebellious. His family is super uptight and never talk about problems. When H turned 10 he felt a palpable turning point in his relationship with his mother (rejection.) Guess who became his mom in adulthood (rhetorical, of course.) Interestingly I found one of the message threads on his phone to be with his first love who he lost his virginity to. I had suspected they got in touch over year ago but it seemed insignificant at time to me. The emails were pretty benign, mostly about how great her kids are and ours is.
I am going to keep up my DBing, a la 180s; I am trying to remain non-confrontational, low-key, beautiful and positive. There are going to be days when I have to say “no” to H, regardless of his MLC and my desire to reconcile. I worry about those times to come because I don’t want take steps back in the DB. How do you deal with someone who is unhinged, set limits and boundaries, and DB? That’s a big question.
I want to specifically ask about the following in “The Lighthouse” MLC resource posted by Smurf_SMR (02/06/06)
You show the path by also protecting the children from their painful actions. Set clear boundaries that the Other Person is not part of your children's lives...without Love Busting. Offer alternatives that let them see the children, but be clear that the Other Person is to have no access to them. You fill the children's lives with stability. They deserve it and need it more than anything else.
How do you say to your S that your child(ren) cannot be in this mix without love busting? Technically I don’t even know about the OW. How do I say “you are not subjecting our D4 to your current OW”? Sorry I am being so obtuse but this still remains my biggest question and why I started this very thread.
I posted in my own thread in Newcomers under "Advice please". H came and following the advice of Chuck (the telephone coach here) I didn't act as him mom telling him what to do and giving advice etc (which is how our R has been). As a result H follows me around the apt asking all these questions about this and that and asking how various friends are doing. It was way too cold for S and H to go to the park and too cold for me to stay outside for long (I did go outside to run errands and give him and the two of them space and time). When back, I kept busy in the kitchen, and H kept coming in there. He told S the reason he won't move back here is because he and I don't understand each other, which is a bunch of crap: We have the same views on almost everything, the same interests and so on. I understand him perfectly, thank you. I understand he has met someone w/o kids and baggage, someone who is free and adventurous the way I was when we first met. So is the problem S then? Ugh. Then I took S to his piano lesson (which is followed tonight by his first recital). H is very proud of him, though I am the one who's been pushing the piano and taking him to lessons and overseen his practice. H is coming over tomorrow morning, too. Another day to rise and shine. I work from home so I spend half the nights working to get things out of the way so I can pick up and leave the apt whenever H gets here. Just to give him space, space, space. Though today I had a feeling he really wanted to see me. He left S in the other room with a DVD on to follow me around. I had gotten all dolled up and must have smelled like a perfume factory. Also a friend called when he was here so I got the chance to laugh like a whole circus in the other room. This is just crazy. After he leaves I'm so exhausted I need to have a glass of wine to sort of calm down.
I know, our situations are very similar. Your posts stood out, when I read them. It would be nice to meet or at least talk on the phone.
It would be nice to meet or at least talk on the phone.
Do you know how to search for other peoples posts, mine for instance?
Seems like you can send private messages to others, right? I can't get private messages to enable.
Seems like you can send private messages to others, right? I can't get private messages to enable.
Not on this website it is permanently disabled and against the TOS to exchange personal information.
evas,
like many newcomers (and me included) you are writing your posts on someone else's thread I believe.
So go to the newcomers part and select new topic. I think that's how it's done or Cadet can tell you how.
I hijacked about 3 people's threads before I realized I was not on my own.
So once you have your own thread/topic we can advise you better.
Also could you break up your posts into smaller sections, so it's easier to read and follow.
Especially for those of us who use reading glasses.
thanks and hang in there. This is a great place to be, for a lousy reason.
Any chance you can hire a DB coach? I did many things to save my m but if I could only do ONE
it'd be hiring them & coming here.
Keep posting and I'll keep an eye out for you.
My S is also showing signs of regression. But only with me, at bedtime mostly. When H comes around it's all fun and games, H never gets to see anything bad, and I don't tell him, because I know he wouldn't believe me anyway, or think it's just one of my ploys to get him to feel guilty or force him to come back.
guilt does not get them back to stay. If they come around at all, due to guilt, it converts into resentment and is aimed at the source of the guilt=you.
Trying to guilt them always backfires. They will see you as being self righteous and they'll flee farther.
Plus they'll just validate in their minds the reasons they left at first.
I sometimes feel I cannot say anything to him. When he asks about S, which he frequently does in txt mssgs, I always reply the same way: "S is fine, everything's fine!". Though obviously it is not. Whatever.
Why do you always say that?
why not give him something to miss?
I don't know how old your son is (Put that in your signature block too. It'll help summarize your sitch to refresh our memories)
but you could say "S made his first home run today!"...and that will do more than anything to make your h wish he were home...
cutting him off just hurts their r more, which is not your job. If you want to "keep the road home, paved and smooth", don't punish. It'll already be hard for your h to return to a wife who is too angry to ever forgive.
If HE believes you won't ever let go of this, then it's over b/c why should he bother trying?
I'm not saying affairs are fine. I get your pain and I AM SO SORRY...but let's figure out what to do IF you want to reconcile.
See, your h has to believe that marriage to you can be better/different than before
or he won't return....so how are YOU showing him that it can be better?
You can only change you. He's not here posting or trying to save the marriage here. YOU ARE so you are all we can work on....what are YOU doing to show him change in YOU?
Have you read the Div Remedy books? Do so please...it'll help you a lot.
I sense you want your h to know your son is suffering. Fair enough. But ask the DB coach how to get it across OR better yet let your son say it or show it.
You being the messenger of news like that, will make it seem less credible. OR your h will blame you for son's pain and say you are projecting it onto him.
There may even be A bit of truth to that. Are you helping your son feel better or not?
B/c lessening his pain is something you need to help him with.
It's not -letting your h off the hook; it's helping your son cope with loss. Don't confuse helping your son be happy, with benefitting your h even if that is also true.
Your son's happiness must be more important than your h's suffering. Right?
H is coming over tomorrow morning. I just dread when he does. Initially he was angry with me, but that has changed. Now he's just as chipper as can be. The affair is blossoming I suppose. Perhaps I sound jealous, but I am not really. I too wake up very early (but I always did). The mornings and days are usually fine, but the evenings I feel a bit lonely and depressed. I have a couple of friends who check in on me (and talk nasty about H and his actions),
does that help? We find at DB land, it's NOT helpful to have friends chime in to tell us what losers our h's are. IT hurts the cause....tell them gently that you want support in restoring your marriage, not ending it.
Well, is that what you want or not? I can't tell by your post here.
but they too must feel tired of hearing the same story: Nothing new, and I am still sitting here. I am trying to learn how to be patient (being impatient is one of my biggest flaws) - boy, is it hard. Sometimes I wonder how I am able to work and function and put meals on the table and get myself and S up and going every day in amidst all this mess. Oh well, this too shall pass. I take S to family mass in the city on Sundays, that helps. And S prays every night for Dadda to come back home.
Take charge of your life and DO some work to make this relationship better.
what were your h's complaints about you?
What did he SAY were his reasons for wanting out? ANY bit of it valid? Dig deep b/c we all have flaws but which ones bugged HIM the most?
Use that info as "intel for your recon mission" and work on yourself --DIG DEEP!
Do those 180s (opposites) that undermine his reasons for leaving.
you want to undermine his rationalizations for going.
If he said "you have a bad temper" you become "ZEN EVAS" woman...you exude calm serenity...temper? What temper?
Counter his negative images with positives...make sense?
Use this gift of time to improve and Become the best woman you can be. The best mother you can be...and
Be a woman only a fool would leave.
ps
sorry for the hijack!!!
25yearsmic, thank you so much for your reply - it's very helpful.
I have started my own thread (in Newcomers under "Advice Please"), I was merely replying to PrincessP here. I def. don't believe it serves any purpose with friends and family who talk nasty about H, but few of them understand MLC, which is why I wanted someone who does understand to talk to. I am also aware that guilt isn't going to make things better. What worries me is that if I do tell H about the problems our S (who is 4) is having, H is going to believe that I am trying to make him feel guilty. H already sees the good stuff S is doing, because when H comes over S is very happy to show him.
I haven't "punished" H since I found DB. I believe I have been very nice. What I guess I was trying to say is that H has a way of turning anything I say against me, which I realize is very MLC. Bottom line: I have to be very careful with what I tell H and how I say it.
I have talked to a coach (which I also mentioned in my own thread). And it was very good.
Eva, you spoke to a DB coach? How was it? I haven't done that (have to be careful with the finances.) I want to. It's almost tax time and we owe again, so I need to be mindful of spending; although I would spend every last dime I have and live on the streets to save my M.
I want practical advice about how to DB and protect our D4 who like your S is not coping well. Our children are revealing to their stable and trustworthy parents the true nature of their emotional states. They are at critical tipping points as they are trying to please Daddy by acting like they are okay because the children feel guilty for this situation. As hurt as I may be the only reason I am angry with my H is for our D4. She should not have to concern herself with pleasing any adult, it is not her responsibility.
I keep scanning post after post about MLC, kids, more about the "Lighthouse Affect", everything. The better I look, the more carefree I become the more it angers my H. The more I learn the less I feel I am doing correctly. My parochial school upbringing makes me dependent on direct instruction. I am an overachiever so of course I feel like I am failing.
Oy, I vented there.
25yearsmic, is your success story or your DB steps chronicled? I see your success came in after three-ish years.
we were apart 2 years with several visits in between. The third year I joined him and after a year of that, we went to Retrovaille b/c our piecing went only so far.
We needed new tools. Retrovaille and another, separate individual workshop ("Essential Experience") are what made us feel that we had restored our m.
I think there's a thread around here somewhere in which I began to tell the story but have not completed it. I Do say things I learned though. YOu may find it helpful...
more later
((( )))
PP,
I'm also on a very strict budget (esp now because of MLC and H not really caring about expenses), but I also felt very frustrated and emotional. I signed up for 3 sessions, have had one and will spread the next two out carefully.
When I called I had sort of figured it was MLC, and the coach confirmed that quickly, which helps me navigate a bit better. I think you can learn a lot from this board, too, if $$ is an issue.
The coach told me to treat H as a friend and basically to do 180's and LRT. At that point (I called over 2 weeks ago - my goodness, things have changed so much since then, for one I am much calmer) I didn't say much about S4. Much time was spent on me talking about our history, and sorting out what I could do now. What I do to better my situation, will also benefit S. But since that call, S has begun to display anger and sadness, and I worry a lot about him somehow thinking H left because of him. The ugly truth is that H loves S but is sick of the responsibility, he actually said he wants to go "where the wind takes him". Hard to do with a 4-year old.
Hang in there!
H is angry with me exclusively regardless of other factors, classic MLC. The anger is palpable even our D4 can sense it; children are very perceptive. H doesn't scream or carry on in front of D4 or at me but you can feel it practically radiate out of him.
Even H moved out in the beginning of the year, he still pays the mortgage so he feels entitled (or maybe guilty) to come and go as he pleases. I said in one of my first posts H has been manipulating our D4 for a while now even before he left. His new maneuver is to leave within minutes of my arrival home so now D4 is associating my arrival with her father's departure and she is beginning to resent me for it. While we haven't said anything to her yet (at least I hadn't) D4 very well knows H doesn't live at home with his family but now she feels I am the problem.
Last night I told D4 that "I love Daddy and want him to come home too but he chose to leave and choses to leave each time. This is Daddy's home too and he can come back anytime." I put the responsibility on him. She is smart enough to know what a decision is; I give her choices within limits and she makes decisions for herself. I will remind her of H's choice everytime she feels either she or I are the cause if his leaving.
PP,
I am not going to hijack your posts anymore ;-), but if you are interested in getting together somewhere in the city, let me know here (or under my own thread in Newcomers "Advice please"). I will probably have to bring S4 though, since H works afternoons and evenings. We could have a stroll in some park or coffee and exchange contact info that way. I hope by writing this I'm not violating any rules.
Eva,
I don't know all of the DB rules either. Hopefully you won't stop writing. I will definitely check out your post in Newcomers.
Meeting in Central Park is a great idea. You pick a day in the next week, and I will meet you at the Diana Ross Playground(off West 81st Street); afternoons are preferable.
P
I know that we are no where near R but I am curious about Retrouvaille. Angel61 also went through the Program but said it was too early in the R process for them. Can you tell me a little more about the experience?
PP,
The Diana Ross Playground is perfect. Does Wednesday work for you? I can be there any time, so let me know what time suits you best in the afternoon, and I'll be there with S4.
Wednesday, April 4th is perfect. How about 3:15 PM? I will wear something that will help you identify me without giving away my physical description. More to come next week on that.
3:15 next Wednesday at that playground is perfect. My S wears glasses, and I am quite tall, you'll notice us. I'm so happy about this.
Not sure how to interpret H's actions versus treatment of me. He on occasion goes into our bedroom to change his clothes, even throwing them down the laundry chute now and then. Aside from the big heap of stuff he took initially he takes one or two things at a time but sometimes leaves something else behind. About week or so ago he even took a shower in our bathroom after a haircut appt. He's super friendly with our D4, and continues to tell her he is leaving because he has to work (or the more insane story...going to the moon to get cheese.)
He signs the mortgage checks without much word about it. Although tonight he asked about the taxes and could he have his checkbook. I said that I didn't have his checks at the house and they were at the office. He asked me to bring home a couple of checks for him. Maybe he wants to start paying OW for his share of her rent, or maybe he wants to start squirreling away cash. Oh God, he is finally getting his brain in gear. This is going to get scary isn't it?
As for the way he interacts with me.... Sometimes he will say somethin to me as if I am new acquaintance and is pleasant, most times he scowls in my direction or ignores me like a lamp post. After much deep reflection and critical thinking about what I contributed to our marriage crisis and what he feels I have done to him (the I have been mean to him for our entire relationship) I have replaced the OCD control everything and everyone around me with relaxing nonchalance, the too casual appearance
with glam MILF look, the stern parenting with empathy, etc. Perhaps the little sign of receptiveness on his part are so subtle I don't see them but I worry that they aren't really there at all. Are my 180s too much, too little?
No guarantees, right?
Have an emergency question to DB. H asked for his checks last night. Do I ask him what they will be used for?!?!
Background: H and I maintain separate checking accounts and a shared savings. I have maintained all the financial transactions of our household even before we were married.
Since he is in MLC and living with OW I am DBing with a lot stacked against me. H also maintains his anger towards me. H taking checks is scary because I need his financial support. What scares me more is will he let OW start "taking care" of finances.
PLEASE HELP! ANY ADVICE???
I think they are his property and he's entitled to have them. Asking him what he wants them for - think about all the various ways this conversation could go, and whether any of them would really prevent anything. You should talk to a lawyer right away and find out how to protect yourself financially. You may need a formal separation agreement.
Agreed. The personal checking account checks are his (just like my personal checking account checks are mine,) but his liquidating the funds without justifiable cause or to hide money is also my business to know.
I know if I ask him anything it will all go very badly.
PP,
I would give him the checks. The accounts are marital property, if he "wastes" money (like spending on OW) he will be accountable for it in ED. You really want him to have the checks so its documented where the money is going. He could go to the bank right now and withdraw cash (and he has good reason, you took the checks!) and the spend the money and you not know where it is going. Its better for you that he has them.
CD
That's why you should talk to a L. I'm in the same boat. My H is convinced that we will be divorcing, and he could be moving money for all I know. In my specific case, I don't believe he is and I don't feel like I would care very much if he did. I have a company and a support system and if I had to start over with nothing I could. So it's not worth it to me to get a formal separation agreement right now. In your case maybe you should.
Use lawyers to do the hard stuff rather than you implying that you think your H would steal from you. That's inflammatory coming from you, less so coming from a lawyer since it's more cut-and-dried to them. Normal process to them. I see on here a lot of people get mad at what the lawyers do and take it personally, but there's no way it could be more inflammatory that way than if you hold onto his personal checkbook because you fear he might steal what's rightfully yours. There's no way to say that directly that won't inflame your situation.
In my previous post I didn't realize he had already moved out (just read back thread), when your settling ED in court it usually goes back to the separation date. In settlement talks both parties usually provide the information. If they don't and the other party does not trust them they usually have to file a court case (that enables to them to subpoena financial information). In any case you would usually be entitled to half the money in each other's accounts at that date.
We owe parents a ton of money; they gave us money for the down payment of our house. I have been giving back money in increments at the beginning of every month.
H comes to the house regularly to visit D4. I catch him looking forlorn at the house. It’s our first home and it’s beautiful. A week after he first left and had a verbal explosive on me about finances and how “he can afford the house and I can’t.” I have this awful feeling he is going to start accumulating his earnings and say that he will buy me out of the house. Oh God…I don’t want H and OW trying to play house and happy family in the home we saved for, and parenting our D4. This is ugly.
P,
How are you doing? I'm afraid I have no advice for you. I also worry over finances, as H is free falling and could care less. It's difficult.
I'm a complete wreck. I am freaked out that he is going to start hiding assets (his income which is triple mine.) My H is a big shot in his profession. I am 100% opposed to divorce. At the same time, there is not much more I can do to protect myself financially. I have done everything that is possible without filing for "maintenance." NJ is a no-fault state.
I am very fearful he is going to amass money so he can turn around and try to buy me out of the house. It's not about the darn house, I'm not emotionally attached to it. What bothers me is this maneuver combined with H's continued manipulation of D4. I fear him taking over the house with his mistress (and folks, let's call the OP what they are. If you are legally and emotionally still married then this is adultery) and playing family with my D4 during her visits with him. Yes, I do sound like I am throwing in the towel, but I am not exclusively dealing with my H; the mistress is influencing him and feeding into his anger towards me.
I have a dear friend who lived in a shelter with her two boys because of the financial devastation Ds can cause the unsuspecting S (or LBS.)
P,
I hope you have good friends and family to talk to. I wish I had some advice. I see others have posted advice here, I hope that helps.
Two months ago, I had no idea what an MLC really was, and now I am painfully aware of what it is, or at least can be. I'm not going to write all the things I sometimes feel like doing and saying, because it's counterproductive and serves as no help at all, but there's no denying I FEEL them. Enough said.
I hope tomorrow will be a better day for you. In the meantime, take care of yourself and your D.
I felt calm there for a while from when I started DB until this check matter so almost a month. By no means am I giving up but I have to further the lovingly distant behavior.
Sadly I received a notice in the mail last night that there will be bench warrant for my arrest because of unpaid parking violations on a car I own (and is drive by H.) The vehicle was a gift from my parents. Friends, I come from an upper middle-class family, went to fancy prep schools and have a prestigious career. My H comes from a proper upper middle-class Midwestern family. Never in my wildest dreams would I have suspected being involved in such degrading activities. My attorney friends are going ballistic. I know this is nothing compared to what some people have suffered before, during and after D but this is low.
PricessP there is nothing wrong with you protecting your self.
In fact that is the most important thing that you should do right now.
Detachment is the single most important thing.
Do your lawyer friends have any advice about the car?
I would listen to whatever they say about that issue.
So much for protecting myself. I was called into court yesterday at the last minute by H regarding custody, and the D is being by him ASAP. This is a result of standing up for our D4 and myself.
I'm so sorry PrincessP, be sure to protect yourself and D4 now. Just as your H is looking out for himself, be sure to do the same. I know it hurts very much right now. I hope you have strong support near you
Autumn,
I looked at your signature. Are you still holding strong? If you have any wisdom to impart, it would be appreciated.
I feel so lost...I thought DB was going great and then over the last four days I hit Disasterville. After H screaming at me over the phone about his finances I felt changing the locks and not allowing for a weekend away with D4 was appropriate. H felt otherwise. H has a sleazy litigation L rather than a family law one. I never seen H so consumed by $ before.
Eva,
I am only 5' 1". Tomorrow I will wear a silver bumble bee brooch on my coat.
P
P,
Good to know. I'll wear a purple striped scarf, I am tall and blond and as I said my S wears glasses.
I'm so sorry to hear about recent events - that's terrible, and I can imagine your pain. But as the saying goes "it ain't over till it's over". And it's NOT over yet.
I'll bring some books.
Princess- that's great ur getting together w another DB mom! Valuable support! I'll be thinking of you n praying for you! (HUGS)
Hi DB Friends.
It has been a couple of weeks since I have checked in. Things got out of control there for a while. I needed a little time to absorb it all. My first time in a court room aside from being excused from jury duty.
I am busy with lots of preparation for myself and D4 in case all DB attempts fail. The future will come no matter what and hopefully it will be with H but if it doesn't then I need to be ready for that.