Time for a new thread. Below are the links to my old threads.
8 - Dark Shadows, White Light, New Possibilities 7 - Dark Shadows & Light at the End of the Tunnel? 6 - Dark Shadows on the Roller Coaster - ride cont's. 5 - Dark Shadows on the Roller Coaster 4 - Dark Shadows - DB continues 3 - Into the darkness - DB full steam ahead 2 - W is angrier after my 180's - time + consistency 1 - Wife is angrier after my 180 ====================================
So this is what I was struggling with when I posted on my previous thread last night:
Now I have to figure out when and how to approach W about when/if she wants/needs me to move back out. It is something that has been weighing heavy on my mind for a couple of reasons.
First, I have March rent coming due is a few days. There is no sense in paying if I'm going to continue to stay at the house.
Second, I don't want to rush things along if my W is starting to reconsider our R. I'm not suggesting that she is or has even shown signs of wanting to. But if she is and I come across as ambivalent about things or like I want to move back out then she may get cold feet.
Third, I don't want to overstay my welcome and come across as assuming all is well when it isn't. I don't want to appear needy either. I want to be confident and ok with my life, no matter what.=================================
This afternoon, W and I were eating a late lunch and this is where I chose to engage her. I told her that I had been doing some thinking about how we communicate with each other and how when she is not clear in what she needs or wants, then I go into automatic fixit/control mode and I think this is where we sometimes get sidetracked.
I gave her the two examples I posted about on my old thread:
A) She texted me that she had told S13 that he'd be picked up from school. Did she want me to pick him up? If so she needed to say so.
B) She asked me when I was leaving for the grocery store but didn't tell me why. The reality as I later learned was that she wanted to take a shower and needed me nearby. All she had to do was say so.
So I told her that for me to manage my control/fixit behaviors I needed her help and rather than leave me guessing as to what she wants or needs, simply tell me and if I can do it or make adjustments to my schedule, I will. And if I can't I will let her now that as well.
She was surprisingly open to this line of commentary and said she would from now on and then proceeded to tell me that S10 needed to be picked up early from school and was I able to do it. I said yes. Both of us smiled.
I went on to tell her that last week when she said that I didn't need to stay upstairs in the guest bedroom when she was home, that the only reason I have been doing that is 1) I don't want her to feel uncomfortable with me around and 2) I do a lot of writing and journaling,
a lot of journaling and I didn't want to be rude and do that in her presence. She nodded knowingly. So I got that out of the way.
We continued talking and I asked her how she was feeling? Was she feeling confident? She said yes, she was feeling much better, still tired, but is not concerned in the least about her recovery.
She then made a startling comment in that she felt like she would always need medication to manage her heart and possibly an implanted defibrilator or worse case a heart transplant! Yikes! I wasn't prepared for that! I guess we'll see what the Dr's. have to say about that when she goes for her follow-ups in few weeks.
Anyway our conversation continued and I asked her what else I could do for her and she said that I could stop being overly concerned about her. She is fine and while she really appreciates my help, she doesn't need me to be doting over her. I didn't really think I had been doing that, but if that's what she wants than ok, I'll back off.
Which led perfectly into my next question. I told her that I will continue to provide whatever care she needed but I don't want to over stay my welcome and in the spirit of being open with each other, she needs to tell me when it is time for me to go. I said I would not be offended in the slightest, but she just needed to tell me and she agreed.
Then I asked her, is it time for me to leave? She said, "Oh no! I don't think I can manage things in the morning. I'm not sleeping well at night and usually only get to sleep just before the boys wake up for school."
So there was my answer.
I'm not naive, I'm sure there is just a little bit of cake eating going on. I mean the house stays relatively clean, the dishes and laundry get done, the meals get cooked. Who'd want that to end?
However, I'm happy to do this if it allows me to continuously fill her LL needs and maybe "pull and few relationship weeds and plant a few relationship seeds" that will one day lead to a reconciliation.
I know that my expectations need to be set to zero and they are. I will continue to with my GAL plans. I will continue to fund my other place of escape and I will continue to live my life as if I am going to go on with out her.
Very glad to hear the conversations went well! Did she give any idea how long she wants you to stay? When do you leave for Spain?
No idea about how long. I did ask her if she wanted to have her mother stay for a week while I was a way and she was adamant that she didn't need any other help. I guess, she'll keep me around for awhile.
I leave for Spain in the middle of March and if everything falls into place, I'll have a new job waiting for me upon my return. I had a phone screening interview last week and they have invited me in for a panel interview next Monday. Keeping fingers crossed!
Oh, and I sold two properties from my real estate investing business, one of which closed last Friday and generated $10k in profit on $8k out of pocket. Ah, the art of the deal! Gotta love it!
So things are possibly looking WAY UP!!!
2,
Sounds like the conversation went as good as it can go.
Your w opened up and told you what she wanted from you. Now is a great opportunity to show her that you were listening.
I know that my expectations need to be set to zero and they are. I will continue to with my GAL plans. I will continue to fund my other place of escape and I will continue to live my life as if I am going to go on with out her.
.
This is a very healthy perspective. If you can do this whilst continuing to love her as her health strengthens... you'll be just fine!
Communicating is key. And you're definitely right on the analogy, love is a garden
2- Awesome job on the communication and great job on the sales, congratulations!!! I think all WAS's cake eat at some level.
I also think she'll get another taste of reality when you are gone for a week and Spain and are not their to keep things in order.
2Pac - don't beat yourself up if you fall victim to expectations. Personally, I think its impossible not to have them, it's more how you manage them thst counts.
Congrats on the house deals!
2Pac - don't beat yourself up if you fall victim to expectations. Personally, I think its impossible not to have them, it's more how you manage them thst counts.
This is something I need to work on as well. Thanks Rick!
2tp, I think you did great with your communication with your wife. I think as long as you show her you were listening to what she said, you'll be fine.
Thanks everyone for your posts!
Small update & follow-up from yesterday's post:
Got the boys up and out the door for school this morning but not without it's challenges. Neither one wanted to go to school today. S10 almost missed the bus due to his lollygagging and S13 also had to bolt out the door to catch his bus at the last minute.
Funny thing though, I went back to bed (upstairs guest bedroom). At some point while I was sleeping, I hear my W call out my name. I thought I was dreaming at first until she called my name again and I instinctively jumped out of bed and opened the door to find W downstairs looking up to tell me something.
She was looking at me a little strangely and that is when I realized I was only in my underwear. W hasn't seen me in this level of undress for 5 months. Anyway she was clearly checking me out. I've lost 20 pounds since the start of my sitch and have been working out fairly regularly so maybe she was impressed?
I pretended not to realize how I was dressed and continued to carry on the conversation and that was that. I just thought it was kind of weird in a cool sort of way.
W went to see her C today. I think the timing of our conversation yesterday and her C session today might be important to ongoing interactions.
After W left, I left to go take care of some business and get out of the house and hang for a little at my other pad. When I got back to the house, W was on the phone in the family room instead of locked away in her bedroom. She seemed to be having and upbeat conversation with someone, don't know who and don't really care.
Anyway, when she is done with her call, we have a really loose and very friendly conversation about various things. The mood just seemed to be really loose and carefree....kind of like old times.
Makes me wonder.......
Tonight my GAL will commence with an Arena Football game. Told W that I would be going out tonight starting at 6pm. So she is on her own with the boys.
That's all for now.
Sometimes the "loose and carefree" conversations through me for a loop more than the intense ones. I'm glad y'all had a relaxing time in each other's presence
The underwater thing is kinda funny. I can only imagine that the WAS has filled up their head with images and memories of anger and hurt- then to see the LBS in their vulnerable state- must make them take a pause. If you've lost that much weight and been working out, I'm sure she couldn't help but notice.
leopard print speedo style!
LOL, the thong thread is killing me
Accuray
Nice move, 2tp.
Next time my H comes by to pick up the girls I am going to make an excuse to be in my underwear.
Sometimes the
"loose and carefree" conversations through me for a loop more than the intense ones. I'm glad y'all had a relaxing time in each other's presence
The underwater thing is kinda funny. I can only imagine that the WAS has filled up their head with images and memories of anger and hurt- then to see the LBS in their vulnerable state- must make them take a pause. If you've lost that much weight and been working out, I'm sure she couldn't help but notice.
I had to read the opening of your post a few times before I realized you were talking about conversations being "loose and carefree". For a minute I thought.... now how did she determine I was wearing boxers from my underwear story
LOL, the thong thread is killing me
Accuray
Alright now! How did we get from simple underwear, to tiger prints and then thongs?
I'll have you know that I look smashing in a bright green Borat style swim thong!
I sort of pictured boxers with that big smiley face.
OMG!! Lol!! I was quoting YOUR words from the previous post about the way your conversation went with W!!
But I can see how that led to another train of thought.... Geez, I'm gonna get a reputation on here for always going *there*... Raised by a sailor, married a sailor I can get in the gutter with the best of them!
I think this could become a new rule for DB: find an opportunity be in your underware when the WAS comes over!
...and then it happened again! Seriously! Alarm goes off this morning and I go stumbling into S10's bedroom to wake him up as has been my routine for the past 2-3 weeks and I see a bigger lump on the bed than is usual.
Confused and half asleep I go to wake S10 up and am startled to find my W in his bed rubbing his shoulders to wake him. So here I am, once again exposed to the world (er, my W) in nothing more than my skivvies.
I think I'm going to have to start wearing pajamas!
Just for kicks, why not wear the Borat thong and just happen to walk by her? Would this be one of those 180's they talk about?
Every now and then its fun to do something off the wall to break the tension. My S21 came home with a pig mask recently, with the big pink snout, the whole pig face thing. When my W was asleep in "her" room, I put it on and stood by her bed while she slept. I had to make a few pig grunts to get her to wake up, but when she did she let out a pretty good scream. I think she had forgotten that aspect of our relationship...the pranks. BTW she got a good laugh from it which is pretty rare these days.
Humor is the best medicine!
Time to change the subject!
Last night GAL consisted of going to an Arena Football game with my friend. Hadn't ever been to one before so it was a new experience for me.
One cool thing about my little adventure was that I saw the most spectacular sunset over downtown that I've seen in ages. Interesting cloud formations and brilliant orange/pink sunset coloring made for an amazing picture! And to think I would have missed that had I not been out GAL!
Today as I mentioned in an earlier post, W was up with the boys to get them out the door for school. The other day when I asked her if I was overstaying my welcome she had said at the time she still needed me around to get the boys up in the morning. Thought that was a good sign, but then here she is getting the boys up in the morning.
This afternoon, W and I are discussing various weekend and spring break logistics and as part of the conversation, I ask her if she would like to go to lunch tomorrow. We had gone to lunch last week, so I thought maybe we could do it again.
Her response was that she would let me know, but right now she is in a crappy mood. I asked her what was eating her and she kind of dodged the question. What is strange to me is that after she got the boys out the door this morning she went back to bed and didn't wake up until 3:30 or so this afternoon. So what is causing her pissy mood is a mystery to me.
W then tells me that she will wake the boys again tomorrow. With her being in a pissy mood combined with her taking on more with getting the boys up and ready in the morning, I start to sense that maybe it is time for me to make my exit. But in the spirit of keeping our communication open, I ask her again if I am over staying my welcome.
She quickly responds, "no I still think I need help." She didn't say with what but the other day when I posed the same question it was to help get the boys ready in the morning. Since she seems to have that covered now I wonder what she feels she needs help with?
Now I'm confused! But rather then press any further, I opt to keep my mouth shut and make a quick exit.
Strange times!
2Pac...she undoubtedly has a lot on her mind. I think its a wise choice on yor part to keep it quiet. You wouldnt want her to lash out at you from her confusion. I think it might be a good time for you to back off a bit but quietly do it, so she wont start projecting her troubles on to you. Not to take away from your burden but I do think she must have a boatload of stuff to sort out right now. Regardless of where she might run with this I think she could really use some more quiet behind the scenes support. You're a good man 2Pac.
I'm wondering if she wants your help but doesn't want to have to ask for it? Just wondering...
About the pig undies- laughter will help break some of that thick ice!
I know she has a lot on her mind. The trouble is I don't know how to support her behind the scenes. I think she is still struggling with concepts of her own mortality and I feel like I should be there to help her with that stuff. Or at least be a sounding board for her. But I don't now how to do that in a way that she can tolerate.
I mean like today for instance, I was away for most of the day. At least the part where she was awake. When I return, I find that she is in a crappy mood. About what? She didn't have enough waking time to have anything set her off. How do I support her with that?
I seem to be getting mixed signals. She wants space (i.e. don't dote over me) but then she doesn't want me to leave.
She made an odd comment tonight about how the boys don't seem to care if she is home or not. These are young boys who's minds are elsewhere - sports, video games, friends, etc. What is she expecting. This is the kind of crap thinking that she always takes way to personally. But I tell her that I think they are just content that she is home and they go and do what they always do. I don't know how else to help her feel like she is loved and needed without smothering her.
So this is where I struggle.
more... One of W's complaints was that I was not emotionally available during key periods of our 18 year M. This recent health crisis of her's has allowed me to demonstrate that I am capable of being there for her when she was her absolute most vulnerable. I think I probably exceeded her expectations during that very difficult period.
However, now that she is home and clearly dealing with some tough emotional issues, I don't know how to be there for her. Especially if she is pushing me away. I know she needs my emotional support. I just don't know how to provide it.
I am having the same problem with my W. I know she is hurting but we are two different ships in the night. It has only been 5 days when she dropped the D bomb on me. Since then I have been at home doing whatever I can with our young children, getting them ready for school and entertaining them after school. Thursday night was a quick hello and then went to my S10's room to play some new board games. D6 was in the living room with her and I could hear her snapping on her, I then asked my D6 to come play "Chutes and Ladders" with us. She did and left the W to relax.
So I could really use some advice on my last couple of posts. W is again in a funk today. I am fearful she may be spiraling emotionally, mostly centered around her medical condition, but maybe there is something else?
Thoughts and comments are welcomed.
So I could really use some advice on my last couple of posts. W is again in a funk today. I am fearful she may be spiraling emotionally, mostly centered around her medical condition, but maybe there is something else?
Thoughts and comments are welcomed.
Pay the rent....
You are too close for missiles Goose......
Already got that covered.
What else?
2, like your W is a kind of touchstone for your boys so they can orbit around safely in their worlds knowing she will be there when they need her. That becomes the role of Mom with boys at those ages, to be there and to be accepting when they need to talk.
I think that's what you need to strive for with W. When I think about what H could have provided me when I was spinning OOC, that's what I envision. H setting safe boundaries for him, allowing me to do the work I need to do, being open and listening when needed without fretting or fixing.
Hope this makes sense.
That's what I am trying to do, Bug. Seems like there ought to be more.
I always felt that I wasn't getting better fast enough, so anything that felt like pressure was really difficult because I thought I was failing.
Structure, support and safe boundaries for you.
2 stop trying to fix her, stop trying to help her, just stop ok. Let her be. Her relationship with the boys is her responsibility not yours. You said in an earlier post that she is pushing you away. Maybe you are Persuing again? Drop the gun buddy
^^^ a very astute observation.
Seems like there ought to be more.
Struggling with this idea myself. Feel like I should be doing something more direct to invoke better responses but in the end, should I just realize the long, drawn-out process just is and stop getting distracted by my impatience.
Hope you have a good weekend!
T2 - this is why it's harder to DB when your S softens.... you are like a damn held back and there's suddenly a crack in the dam. I've done this same thing too. It was easier in a way when they appeared to hate us. You have to be so cool about this right now, no matter what your insides are doing. You really aren't detached until you can let whatever happens, happen without getting sucked back in. I'm just finding this out now.
There's all sorts of stages you will go through in this. If you're like me, when you finally figure out how to detach you might start wondering where your love went for her. You may not believe that can happen...I never would have either but you do start to unwind over time, maybe not from losing love but maybe just gaining some sort of acceptance.
I know you're in a tough predicament. You going to have to walk the razors edge on this one...be there for her but don't overdo it, show her you care but only in a way that works for her....not easy at all
Where I am struggling is that in addition to the sitch which is a big deal, she now has this major health issue which has completely changed everything.
I just feel like she needs emotional support from me at this time. Problem is, how I have been showing it since she got home from the hospital is not effective. So I'm just looking for alternatives.
Distancing myself seems like it might look once again like rejection on my part.
Then....just got this text from her:
"I'm sorry to be so mean lately. Haven't felt well and I think the meds make me very forgetful. It is extremely frustrating"
This was an unsolicited text message I just got a minute ago.
I replied:
"I know Mrs 2TP. Don't worry about it. My goal is to help you get well"
Great, pefect answer because its true. Again, be Joe Cool and just quietly take care of her. My W is in a very similar boat in terms of make or break life Q & A's. Just be the cool, calm loving, wise, gentle T2 with a liberal splash of humor to keep her spirits up. You have your boys to keep your spirits up, but right now you are a caretaker for your W.
This is selfless love at its best and its going to be a long haul - medically for her, sprititually for her, emotionally, practically, etc. Not that it isn't for you but you have to be the strong silent type for her.
There are times when you need to drop the rope, but right now she needs you at least for health reasons. Do this right and it may help you guys turn a corner. You know the drill though...no expectations (ha ha...like we can do that).
Nice job and so cool to see a text like that from the W! :0
That's encouraging and you now know where she's coming from! Very helpful.
Very positive that she sent you that text... it at least means that she is reflecting on her emotions and actions, even when she doesn't seem like it.
I can relate a little with the health issues. The fact that I need my H for emotional support right now, is tough because I don't feel like he's capable of being there for me- in the *way* that I need him to be. My H tends to downplay everything the doctor's say, whether it's so he doesn't have to feel so guilty about leaving me or b/c he's trying to keep me from over reacting- I'll never really know. Fact is, I still have 1 more heart surgery before I still get a complete diagnosis. If it's the disease that they think I have, the only cure is a full lung and heart transplant- it can only be treated with steroids to prolong life. This is the diagnosis that H has heard from the doctors- and he still keeps his distance.
The fact that you recognize the severity of her issue, is a great place to start. (I can only speak for myself) If it we me, I wouldn't want you to hover or 'baby' me in any way- b/c it's a reminder that I'm frail or fragile. She probably doesn't want to see herself that way b/c it means that she can't leave you b/c she'll need your help all the time. Right now, she wants to portray (or try to) a strong, independent woman who doesn't need help for even daily tasks. But I would bet $100 that when she's alone, and can let her true feelings rise to the top, she's scared. She's scared that she can't do it alone, and that she might not be there for her kids in the future. She won't want to admit these to you often, but she might open up if you ask how she's feeling- so if she's been wanting to vent- you've made it comfortable for her to do so. I wish my H would ask me every once and a while, but he probably doesn't b/c then he would be reminded that he's leaving me when I need him more than ever. He doesn't want to know that I can't go up and down the stairs without loosing my breath and getting dizzy.... people would condemn him for leaving his W is such a fragile state.
B/C of these opposite ends of the spectrum feelings- you have to let her come to you when she needs help. Even if you see her struggling, wait for her to ask for your involvement. If you do too much, without her request, she might think that you are treating her like a cripple. You have done great at letting her know that you are a resource available for her whenever she needs it- but there's not much more you should do. It's sweet that you *want* to do more for her.
2P- I agree w Purg. Very good insight!
Also- detach DETACH detach!!
facing one's own mortality is a very scary place to be. i think what brings a lot of people comfort during those times is just knowing that someone is there. experiencing the normal everyday things becomes overwhelming.
when i was getting checked out to rule out breast cancer.. the waiting was very scary. i would sometimes look at my kids and cry thinking that i may not see them grow up. but i didn't want anyone to try and fix me.. or tell me everything was going to be alright.. i just needed to know that someone was there. (ok.. thinking about this is making me teary again)
i think you're doing the very best you can for her by just being there and making the kids a priority. keeping things as normal as they can be will at least give a sense of stability.
you are a good man. so patient.. very giving...
(((( 2pac ))))
What is so amazing about her text is that she recognizes that she was being mean. Maybe she is starting to look at herself and not blame you for everything?? maybe??
2,
I echo the many people who have told you to detach.
We know you are concerned for her. We know you care about her. We know you love her enough to put aside the pain of your sitch to focus on the greater need.....
.... Guess what?? So does your w!!!!
So stop beating her over the head with it. Stop the pursuit.
Let your actions speak loud. Do your part....
..... And let your wife do hers..
Because the hard truth is that you can love her and you can be there for her... But it's up to HER to accept it!
And though you can do everything in your power to show her the new and improved 2.....
... Ultimately it's up to her to believe it.
Don't play into her doubt but don't try so hard to convince her with your words.
Make sense?
((( )))
Wow! Really great feedback and perspective from everyone! This was exactly what I was looking for! Really! Thanks!
(((((DB Buddies))))
Quick funny:
Some of you may recall a few weeks back, I posted about giving my W a book I read called "A Year By The Sea - Thoughts of an Unfinished Woman." When I gave her the book, I had placed a note inside kind of explaining why I thought it would be a good read. She promptly placed the book on the stair banister where it has been ever since.
Well, I just got home a minute ago and S10 is sitting on the stairs, legs crossed, reading the book! The sight of it all made me laugh out loud and then when I realized what he was reading, I laughed again!
2tp,
As others have said (and you have seen yourself), the less YOU fix, fret, dote over, check in on, etc. your W, the:
1) less she may blame you for her negative feelings or find your presence annoying (I'm not saying she is, but it goes along with it)
2) has the chance to introspect, understand, work on and fix herself
3) she may seek you out
Her feelings and emotions are her responsibility. She doesn't need fixing, she's not broken. She's capable of acting and feeling differently every moment of the day. Your feelings are your own and your responsibility is to be available and supportive to her IF SHE SEEKS YOU OUT.
Re: her text.......
"I'm sorry to be so mean lately. Haven't felt well and I think the meds make me very forgetful. It is extremely frustrating"
This was an unsolicited text message I just got a minute ago.
I replied:
"I know Mrs 2TP. Don't worry about it. My goal is to help you get well"
I get the good intentions of your response, but have a few thoughts.
First, you did not validate/respond to some of her feelings.
She told you she was sorry about being mean which you acknowledged by saying 'don't worry about it." You didn't really speak to the fact though that she said she 1) hasn't felt well, 2) has felt forgetful, or 3) was frustrated by that. You said that your goal was to help her get well, but in some ways that is FIXING behavior. You didn't give any validation or support of her feelings in the present (about not feeling well, feeling forgetful, being frustrated). (e.g., yeah, I get you feel bad still and that the meds are jacking around with your memory on top of that. that must be so frustrating for you, Mrs. 2tp!) Try to really listen to and connect to her FEELINGS. It's clear that they matter very much to her.
Second, if you want to convey that your goal is to help her get well, perhaps OFFER your help after validating her feelings explicitly by saying, let me know how I can help or let me know if there is anything you want me to do.
As others have said (and you have seen yourself), the less YOU fix, fret, dote over, check in on, etc. your W, the:
1) less she may blame you for her negative feelings or find your presence annoying (I'm not saying she is, but it goes along with it)
2) has the chance to introspect, understand, work on and fix herself
3) she may seek you out
Yes, you are right. I'm trying to learn this ^^^ while also at the same time be available and provide her the emotional support she needs, (or at least I think she needs).
Her feelings and emotions are her responsibility. She doesn't need fixing, she's not broken. She's capable of acting and feeling differently every moment of the day. Your feelings are your own and your responsibility is to be available and supportive to her IF SHE SEEKS YOU OUT.
I agree. I had a convo with her the other day about my tendency to go into control/fixit mode when communication isn't clear. So we agreed together to be more clear with each other which helps me. Dose it help her though? Maybe, maybe not.
...you did not validate/respond to some of her feelings.
She told you she was sorry about being mean which you acknowledged by saying 'don't worry about it." You didn't really speak to the fact though that she said she 1) hasn't felt well, 2) has felt forgetful, or 3) was frustrated by that. You said that your goal was to help her get well, but in some ways that is FIXING behavior.
I guess that was a missed opportunity. You know, she had been bitchy that day before and I didn't think anything of it, didn't get offended, etc. I think it was because at the time she acknowledged that she was in a pissy mood, so I just kind of shrugged my shoulders and moved on. I hadn't considered validating in that context. Lesson learned!
You didn't give any validation or support of her feelings in the present (about not feeling well, feeling forgetful, being frustrated). (e.g., yeah, I get you feel bad still and that the meds are jacking around with your memory on top of that. that must be so frustrating for you, Mrs. 2tp!) Try to really listen to and connect to her FEELINGS. It's clear that they matter very much to her.
Here I think, especially because I was struggling with how to provide emotional support while at the same time backing off, that I didn't realize I could do this in this specific context. Does that make sense?
Second, if you want to convey that your goal is to help her get well, perhaps OFFER your help after validating her feelings explicitly by saying, let me know how I can help or let me know if there is anything you want me to do.
Good point.
You didn't give any validation or support of her feelings in the present (about not feeling well, feeling forgetful, being frustrated). (e.g., yeah, I get you feel bad still and that the meds are jacking around with your memory on top of that. that must be so frustrating for you, Mrs. 2tp!) Try to really listen to and connect to her FEELINGS. It's clear that they matter very much to her.
Here I think, especially because I was struggling with how to provide emotional support while at the same time backing off, that I didn't realize I could do this in this specific context. Does that make sense?
The best emotional support you can give is to listen to her. If you are worried about being too much of a fixer, it is ALWAYS good to mirror what she says. "It is so frustrating!" "I bet that is frustrating for you!" You aren't fixing anything. You are hearing her, being there with and for her. Simply being heard and validated is very powerful.
2pac.. have you heard of imago? or non-violent communication? i think there are youtube stuff out there. essentially the basics.. empathizing and validating. H and i had both watched videos on the NVC.. it's really difficulty trying to learn to essentially.. speak another language!
i guess that's what we're all learning.. practice practice practice.. until it become second nature.
Thanks for the post BF, I'll do some research on communicating, empathizing and validating and see if I can apply what I learn.
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I think it is time for me to hit the road. Getting pretty tired of the emotional roller coaster and uncertainty of it all.
Stepped into W's bedroom this afternoon to ask a question and she is in tears, clothes everywhere, a total wreck! I ask her whats wrong? She says nothing. I eff'n hate it when someone is in tears and when you ask whats wrong they say nothing is wrong. Such BS!
I probe a little more and she says no one cares about her, (here we go...pity party on display). The kids don't care about her, her friends don't care about here, blah, blah, blah.
I try to validate as much as possible but also remind her that there are a lot of people that care about her, me included. She says I know you do, (almost as a throw away statement). I told her about all the calls, texts and emails I fielded from friends and family while she was in the hospital and since.
She says they are only checking in out of obligation, not because they care. I say I'm sorry you feel that way. I told her of the 2-3 friends/family who have offered more than once to come from across the country and stay for as long as is needed to help her and the family.
She just goes on about this and that. Then she says why do some people always get what they want? I don't have a flippin clue where this is coming from. It is so out in left field. I don't even know how to respond. I try to validate and reason, but I feel like it is to no avail so I eventually just shut my mouth and continue to listen. She goes on to say that she could/should go back to work tomorrow, (she is approved fro disability until at least the 15th). There is no point just sitting around. I say well that is up to you, you know when you are ready.
I then tell her that I am always here to talk to her and asked her to promise me that if she were ever in need of talking to someone, regardless of the time of day, that she would call me if she needed to. She agreed.
The conversation ends because she has to leave to pick up S13 from paintball.
=======================================
W gets home and we are having dinner. After the boys leave the room W tells me that her brother wants to come visit for Easter. I say, I thought you didn't want him to come. She says she really doesn't.
I tell her well it really is your decision. Do you want me to be "here" when he comes. Of course I want you "around", (that means not "here" in my interpretation which is fine). She goes on to say something along the lines of I don't want you to be uncomfortable, that when I spoke to him he was just being belligerent and it made her mad.
I then decided to read her the message he had sent me while she was in the hospital. The one where he threatened me after learning about our break-up, (the break-up she initiated because she is having an A and wants out of our M).
After reading her the message she says that must have made you feel pretty sh!tty. I say yes it did. Your bother and others have ideas about our breakup and as you know it is not something I wanted.
She says that they don't have any idea about what is going on because she hasn't told them. I tell her well they certainly have imaginations or can try to piece 2 and 2 together.
I then tell her that she should feel free to do what she wants. I don't want to get in the way of your family coming to visit. I'll be elsewhere so no one is uncomfortable.
She says you don't need to be elsewhere. I respond that it is for the best that I'm not around. And I leave the room.
===================
I know that the exchange above was not the most productive and I realize that DB principles were not effectively utilized. However, I think we are all entitled to our backslides from time to time, we are human after all. I just feel like W is wallowing in self pity and with the brother topic is trying to... I don't know, rope me in or... eff, I don't know what I think.
I'm just getting tired. In another week, we will be approaching the 1 month mark since W's health scare. She is exhausted but SO AM I!
I try to put on the brave face, try to be the caregiver providing love and support, with no expectations. But how can one not have some?
I just think it is time to pull WAY back. My W needs to figure out what she wants and it clearly isn't me.
I think it is time.
I know your W see a C but does she get any medication? Like most WAS I think many of their issues are very treatable. It doesnt have to be as hard as she is making it. She can be happy. She needs to love herself then see will recognize all her friends and family that love her as well.
You seem to be doing great and have a understanding of how long this process is gonna take. Enjoy the good times you get to share as a family.
The best emotional support you can give is to listen to her. If you are worried about being too much of a fixer, it is ALWAYS good to mirror what she says. "It is so frustrating!" "I bet that is frustrating for you!" You aren't fixing anything. You are hearing her, being there with and for her. Simply being heard and validated is very powerful.
2TP... being a fixer myself, busto's advice is spot on. I've come up with this big red stop sign in my head. When I listen to my W and hear her moving into emotional territory I literally envision this stop sign. It keeps me from fixing, from solving. It stops me from engaging my brain to solve which then stops me from listening.
Instead I do a lot of parroting and validating. Let her talk it out, it's her problem. In the end you're the sounding board, not the mechanic.
Getting pretty tired of the emotional roller coaster and uncertainty of it all.
That makes sense to me. You've been through alot in the past month.
Stepped into W's bedroom this afternoon to ask a question and she is in tears, clothes everywhere, a total wreck! I ask her whats wrong? She says nothing. I eff'n hate it when someone is in tears and when you ask whats wrong they say nothing is wrong. Such BS!
You can't make her tell you. When she said nothing... you should have said ok and walked and yet you do this..
I probe a little more and she says no one cares about her, (here we go...pity party on display). The kids don't care about her, her friends don't care about here, blah, blah, blah.
Ok so let me get this straight.. you make it sound like you care and then you you make the comment of the "pity party"? The two contradict themselves.
Not only have you pressured her to talk, you then go and push your feelings and your agenda on her. See in
bold.I try to validate as much as possible but also remind her that there are a lot of people that care about her, me included. She says I know you do, (almost as a throw away statement). I told her about all the calls, texts and emails I fielded from friends and family while she was in the hospital and since.
Just validate. Not buts... no reminders. Using the word "but" basically is saying.. "I understand why you feel this way but you are wrong".
And no matter how crazy or absurd YOU may think they are... ... they are HERS and she is entitled to her feelings.
She says they are only checking in out of obligation, not because they care. I say I'm sorry you feel that way. I told her of the 2-3 friends/family who have offered more than once to come from across the country and stay for as long as is needed to help her and the family.
Do you understand that by giving that information.. you aren't actually changing her fear??
Maybe next time be like.
"Wow w.. having that feeling of people doing things out of obligation must be difficult"....
.... and then if you are comfortable and have the communication.. you can get info on why she feels that way.
You are trying to fix something without actually trying to understand it.
She just goes on about this and that. Then she says why do some people always get what they want? I don't have a flippin clue where this is coming from. It is so out in left field. I don't even know how to respond. I try to validate and reason, but I feel like it is to no avail so I eventually just shut my mouth and continue to listen. She goes on to say that she could/should go back to work tomorrow, (she is approved fro disability until at least the 15th). There is no point just sitting around. I say well that is up to you, you know when you are ready.
I then tell her that I am always here to talk to her and asked her to promise me that if she were ever in need of talking to someone, regardless of the time of day, that she would call me if she needed to. She agreed.
Did you read my last post? Re-read it please. This is pursuit and you are trying to "fix" it.
W gets home and we are having dinner. After the boys leave the room W tells me that her brother wants to come visit for Easter. I say, I thought you didn't want him to come. She says she really doesn't.
I tell her well it really is your decision. Do you want me to be "here" when he comes. Of course I want you "around", (that means not "here" in my interpretation which is fine). She goes on to say something along the lines of I don't want you to be uncomfortable, that when I spoke to him he was just being belligerent and it made her mad.
I then decided to read her the message he had sent me while she was in the hospital. The one where he threatened me after learning about our break-up, (the break-up she initiated because she is having an A and wants out of our M).
After reading her the message she says that must have made you feel pretty sh!tty. I say yes it did. Your bother and others have ideas about our breakup and as you know it is not something I wanted.
She says that they don't have any idea about what is going on because she hasn't told them. I tell her well they certainly have imaginations or can try to piece 2 and 2 together.
I then tell her that she should feel free to do what she wants. I don't want to get in the way of your family coming to visit. I'll be elsewhere so no one is uncomfortable.
She says you don't need to be elsewhere. I respond that it is for the best that I'm not around. And I leave the room.
Why did you feel the need to tell her about her brother?
What was your intentions in telling her?
Do you think it brought you closer to your w?
I know you have been through alot but 2.. you gotta STFU. Stop talking and trying so damn hard to convince your w of your "love" for her.
Stop all pursuit and just show her...
You don't show her in the hopes that she will notice or believe you. You do it because that is what love is...
and if she doesn't want you around.. so be it.
If she doesn't want to open up to you.. so be it.
I know that possibility hurts but you are making her health scare more about you than about her.
I just think it is time to pull WAY back. My W needs to figure out what she wants and it clearly isn't me.
I think it is time.
I couldn't agree more. I don't mean to smash you with 2x4s.
I don't know what I would do if I was in your shoes and I think you are handling it.. to the best of your ability.
But you said so yourself that you are tired and aren't DBing your best..
.... so pull away until you can put your DB game face back on.
(((( ))))
Sorry 2, these kinds of conversations are just emotionally draining and we're all running on rather low tanks as it is.
I agree that you need to pull away while her family is around. You have no obligations to be there and take the brunt of misconceptions about your marriage sitch.
Get some rest. Sometimes a good nights sleep can help bring new perspective. Praying for you my friend.
Hi 2TP - sorry, this sounds very hard on you. You really care so much and that shows.
Valeska said exactly what I was going to say, but more clearly. I was going to say, what exactly are you calling validating? You mentioned validating and reasoning with her, as if they're peas and carrots. They're mutually exclusive. Val's examples were good validations.
When a woman is crying and you ask what's wrong and they say "nothing" that doesn't mean literally nothing is wrong, it means nothing that I want to talk to you about. You could still say "I'm sorry that you're hurting" or "I'm here if you want to talk later." It definitely doesn't mean "nothing but keep asking me until I'm mad instead of sad."
I actually think it was fine that you shared the brother's letter. Based on the threat in it, I'd think about making myself scarce while he's there even if W said she wants you there. He obviously doesn't know the real situation and you don't need to create more drama by letting him get in the middle of it.
I know you're tired. Hang in there. She seems so sad and confused. I shouldn't mind read but I think when she says no one cares about her she might really be feeling like she's not worthy of being cared about. You can't fix that. Distance sounds like exactly what's needed.
Getting pretty tired of the emotional roller coaster and uncertainty of it all.
That makes sense to me. You've been through alot in the past month.
Stepped into W's bedroom this afternoon to ask a question and she is in tears, clothes everywhere, a total wreck! I ask her whats wrong? She says nothing. I eff'n hate it when someone is in tears and when you ask whats wrong they say nothing is wrong. Such BS!
You can't make her tell you. When she said nothing... you should have said ok and walked and yet you do this..
I probe a little more and she says no one cares about her, (here we go...pity party on display). The kids don't care about her, her friends don't care about here, blah, blah, blah.
Ok so let me get this straight.. you make it sound like you care and then you you make the comment of the "pity party"? The two contradict themselves.
In that conversation I did care. Later when she came to em about her brothers potential visit, her demeanor was different and so in retrospect, it felt like a "pity party".Not only have you pressured her to talk, you then go and push your feelings and your agenda on her. See in
bold.It wasn't intentional. sometimes I just don't know what to say, so I fill the void. I know...STFU!I try to validate as much as possible but also remind her that there are a lot of people that care about her, me included. She says I know you do, (almost as a throw away statement). I told her about all the calls, texts and emails I fielded from friends and family while she was in the hospital and since.
Just validate. Not buts... no reminders. Using the word "but" basically is saying.. "I understand why you feel this way but you are wrong".
And no matter how crazy or absurd YOU may think they are... ... they are HERS and she is entitled to her feelings.
You are right and I know this. Validation is so hard, not because I am not empathetic but because choosing the right thing to say, especially if what you are hearing sounds like greek is so damn difficult. Kind of like someone says the sky is green. And I have to say "it must be heard to feel that way, the sky being green and all..." It is just so unnatural.
She says they are only checking in out of obligation, not because they care. I say I'm sorry you feel that way. I told her of the 2-3 friends/family who have offered more than once to come from across the country and stay for as long as is needed to help her and the family.
Do you understand that by giving that information.. you aren't actually changing her fear??
Maybe next time be like.
"Wow w.. having that feeling of people doing things out of obligation must be difficult"....
.... and then if you are comfortable and have the communication.. you can get info on why she feels that way.
You are trying to fix something without actually trying to understand it.
I really struggle with this. She is making an irrational statement. Yes, they are her beliefs, but they are completely unfounded... and she knows this. She insisted I turn away every last person who called to check in on her. I just have a difficult time talking in BS. It is like I am prepared to get slapped upside the head if I were to BS my way through that kind of a conversation. It is almost like breathing in water and expecting to have it fill your lungs with oxygen. Just ain't gonna work! Does that make sense?
She just goes on about this and that. Then she says why do some people always get what they want? I don't have a flippin clue where this is coming from. It is so out in left field. I don't even know how to respond. I try to validate and reason, but I feel like it is to no avail so I eventually just shut my mouth and continue to listen. She goes on to say that she could/should go back to work tomorrow, (she is approved fro disability until at least the 15th). There is no point just sitting around. I say well that is up to you, you know when you are ready.
I then tell her that I am always here to talk to her and asked her to promise me that if she were ever in need of talking to someone, regardless of the time of day, that she would call me if she needed to. She agreed.
Did you read my last post? Re-read it please. This is pursuit and you are trying to "fix" it.
W gets home and we are having dinner. After the boys leave the room W tells me that her brother wants to come visit for Easter. I say, I thought you didn't want him to come. She says she really doesn't.
I tell her well it really is your decision. Do you want me to be "here" when he comes. Of course I want you "around", (that means not "here" in my interpretation which is fine). She goes on to say something along the lines of I don't want you to be uncomfortable, that when I spoke to him he was just being belligerent and it made her mad.
I then decided to read her the message he had sent me while she was in the hospital. The one where he threatened me after learning about our break-up, (the break-up she initiated because she is having an A and wants out of our M).
After reading her the message she says that must have made you feel pretty sh!tty. I say yes it did. Your bother and others have ideas about our breakup and as you know it is not something I wanted.
She says that they don't have any idea about what is going on because she hasn't told them. I tell her well they certainly have imaginations or can try to piece 2 and 2 together.
I then tell her that she should feel free to do what she wants. I don't want to get in the way of your family coming to visit. I'll be elsewhere so no one is uncomfortable.
She says you don't need to be elsewhere. I respond that it is for the best that I'm not around. And I leave the room.
Why did you feel the need to tell her about her brother?
What was your intentions in telling her?
Do you think it brought you closer to your w?
I don't know if it brought us any closer. Probably not. She knew he had said something to me and that it was not pleasant. she had even apologized for it a couple of times. I guess I felt like if she was hesitant about him coming and was concerned about my hesitation being around, then she needed to understand exactly why.I know you have been through alot but 2.. you gotta STFU. Stop talking and trying so damn hard to convince your w of your "love" for her.
Stop all pursuit and just show her...
You don't show her in the hopes that she will notice or believe you. You do it because that is what love is...
and if she doesn't want you around.. so be it.
If she doesn't want to open up to you.. so be it.
I know that possibility hurts but you are making her health scare more about you than about her.
That really is not my intention. But point taken.I just think it is time to pull WAY back. My W needs to figure out what she wants and it clearly isn't me.
I think it is time.
I couldn't agree more. I don't mean to smash you with 2x4s.
I don't know what I would do if I was in your shoes and I think you are handling it.. to the best of your ability.
But you said so yourself that you are tired and aren't DBing your best..
.... so pull away until you can put your DB game face back on.
(((( ))))
2,
I echo the many people who have told you to detach.
We know you are concerned for her. We know you care about her. We know you love her enough to put aside the pain of your sitch to focus on the greater need.....
.... Guess what?? So does your w!!!!
So stop beating her over the head with it. Stop the pursuit.
Let your actions speak loud. Do your part....
..... And let your wife do hers..
Because the hard truth is that you can love her and you can be there for her... But it's up to HER to accept it!
And though you can do everything in your power to show her the new and improved 2.....
... Ultimately it's up to her to believe it.
Don't play into her doubt but don't try so hard to convince her with your words.
Make sense?
((( )))
I think I missed this. It looks like we posted on top of each other at the same time, so I missed this post. Good stuff.
"When a woman is crying and you ask what's wrong and they say "nothing" that doesn't mean literally nothing is wrong, it means nothing that I want to talk to you about. You could still say "I'm sorry that you're hurting" or "I'm here if you want to talk later." It definitely doesn't mean "nothing but keep asking me until I'm mad instead of sad."
That is good advice on what to say. My fall back position is to always want to help, solve, fix, eliminate, rescue, etc.
"I actually think it was fine that you shared the brother's letter. Based on the threat in it, I'd think about making myself scarce while he's there even if W said she wants you there. He obviously doesn't know the real situation and you don't need to create more drama by letting him get in the middle of it."
Agreed ^^^
"I know you're tired. Hang in there. She seems so sad and confused. I shouldn't mind read but I think when she says no one cares about her she might really be feeling like she's not worthy of being cared about. You can't fix that. Distance sounds like exactly what's needed."
That is exactly what it is, she feels she is not worthy. Very poor self esteem and her health crisis has appearantly made that worse!
Sandi2 posted the following on CV's thread:
I had to realize he would never be better. He was nearing retirement and he would never climb the "success ladder" any higher. He would never please me in how he kept the back yard, and he would continue to bring junk home to add to his other junk. He would always take all day to think about what he was going to do that day. He would never be the great handyman like my neighbor. He would not measure up in to my father, in my eyes. He would never open open up and talk to me the way I wanted him to, b/c he didn't know how. Neither would he give me the emotional intimacy I wanted b/c he apparently didn't know how to do that either. In other words, he would never change! I really didn't have any hope in him making any kind of change.
These are profound realizations from a WAS. In my R, I know there certainly are things that I need to and have changed. But, I also feel that my W has this expectation that I will and/or am capable of fulfilling
every single expectation she has of me. And I unfortunately will never be able to do that, even though the desire is there on my part. Some things I am just incapable of doing.
Like it or not, it was something I had to decide if I would live the rest of my life with those conditions, or leave. It was not an easy task.
Not easy indeed! Many WAS's just don't ever allow themselves to consider if they could or would live their life accepting their spouses imperfections. Such a shame.
Ever so slowly, as I began reading from the LBH's, I began to understand my own H a little better. And since he didn't know how to reveal that to me, it helped to read it from others. I began to see how I must have been seen in his eyes for a long time.
If only all our our WAS's could come to this level of understanding.
The place that may be different for you and me is that I had to reach a place where I felt humility. I think I had put myself up on such a high pedestal that my H didn't stand much chance in rising up to meet me on my level. You would have thought that after I strayed, I'd have fallen off that high pedestal, but I didn't. In fact CV, I had to actually pray that I would feel bad about what I had done, instead of feeling justified. When the shame begin to hit, well it nearly killed me. Forgiving myself has been the hardest thing I've ever done. Strange, I've never doubted my H's forgiveness, but I've wondered if I really forgiven myself.
This is so important! I have forgiven my W for her EA/A. But she hasn't forgiven herself. Maybe she doesn't want to. Maybe she doesn't feel she needs to. She is the one who has initiated the separation and so I view her much the way Sandi describes above as sitting on this high pedestal looking down on me for all my faults and feeling entirely justified in her decision to exit the M.
My lesson here, I hope, is it finally came to me that if my H could forgive what I had done, then why couldn't I forgive him? If he could give me his trust again, then why would I hold on to all that resentment I had against him?
Amen!!!
I remember telling my H that I hadn't set out to hurt him when I met the OM and had an EA. But I think it was about two years before I could bring myself to tell him I was sorry. Don't you know that our M never stood a chance as long as I danced around trying to avoid that?
Man, 2 years is a really long time! Can any of us hold out that long?
My H really is a good man! He has the best heart of any person I have known. My problem was that he didn't do like I wanted. Maybe I had good reason to feel like I did toward a lot of things, but what I've learned about M, is that most of it is forgiving. Some people say they "overlook" the faults of their S's, but that's just a word for forgiveness. I doubt a day goes by that my H doesn't forgive me for some little offense. After all, I'm not perfect. I hope not, but I'm sure there are many. I have learned that if we forgive the smaller offenses as we go...then the larger ones are not quite as hard as it would be otherwise.
So, much hard earned wisdom in this post! I know that deep down, I am a good person, worthy of the love of my W. That I am not without fault or flaw, but then neither is she.
It is really a shame that many WAS's are in search of perfection which doesn't exist. They have a M that requires regular maintenance but for reasons of their own, are incapable of putting forth the effort to keep the engine running.
Sandi's post above gives me hope that there is a chance for the WAS to turn around and reengage. But, the time involved is what causes many of us to want to give up and move on.
God I pray I can hang on and see this through.
God I pray I can hang on and see this through.
This is a feeling I've begun having the last week or so, but what keeps pulling me back out of it is S. S doesn't deserve what D would bring, and I know that I could deal with it for his sake. He needs an intact family, that's at least one perspective I have that W does not.
DBing is all about working on ourselves, but when it comes to kids, we have to do what's best for them. If the road is long but eventually winds up where you want it, the journey is worth it.
Isn't it?
2- Thanks for posting the pieces above from Sandi. Very good insights and opportunities to hope.
2Pac - just catching up on your thread and seeing how your W was basically having the same moment as my W did Sat night.
What I think I learned from this and maybe it helps you is that when they do this, and share it with you, it's actually a good thing.
You may not be able to make any sense out of it. That's okay though. They need to spit it all out and then they will put together the pieces when they can.
And dude, I had so much the same reaction as you. With all the kind feedback I got from the people here I was able over the weekend to see it in a new light.
Maybe, same for you?
And BTW, try to hold back on the whoop a$$ when your BIL shows up!
W just informed me after receiving what appeared to be a check for her disability but which actually turned out to be just a pay stub, that she is expecting her bonus to be paid soon and that she has plans for the money. In the past we've always just plowed that money into savings and we've over the years built up a sizable nest egg of liquidity from our combined annual bonus's.
However, considering our current state of affairs, who would expect that the old disciplined approach to finances would continue to hold. But I digress...
So W tells me her plans for her bonus money include...wait for it....
breast reduction surgery! 
BUSTORAMA to 2TP's thread, STAT! Could our sitch's run any more parallel? And now that I think of it, was "bustorama" a word play on full on divorce busting or did it have anything to do with your W's own breast reduction surgery?
I love her dearly, but my WAS has gone completely off the deep end with this! She is in the process of recovering from a
very close brush with death that occurred less than 1 month ago. She faces the remote possibility of needing a heart transplant and here she is planning to get a breast reduction procedure that I am sure come with its own set of potential health complications.
I don't know what to do anymore! She has decided to dump me as her long time S, she is recovering from a major illness, she has no self esteem and now she feels compelled to get a boob job!
SIGH!
What?? Friggin harsh 2tp! This will test even the hardiest DBer. Is she looking to get a rise out of you?
Oh wow. I will have to let this sink in. So very random!
(((( ))))
What?? Friggin harsh 2tp! This will test even the hardiest DBer. Is she looking to get a rise out of you?
It depends on how she looks after the procedure, I suppose.
Ack! Did I just say that?
GM-really?
2, I have no words.
And good luck finding someone to put her to sleep if her heart is that damaged.
No kidding? Had she always complained about their size?
Bug - no kidding, most surgeons won't even look at you for elective stuff if you've had heart problems.
I wanted to get that same surgery.... But I'm not allowed b/c of my heart issues.... Dont let her run to Mexico to find a doc who will do it!
It does seem random unless she's ever mentioned it before. If this is the first time- it seems to be following the irratic behavior patterns that the WAS go through.... Is she looking for a confidence boost? Maybe a new haircut would be less dramatic (and cheaper!)
There's a joke somewhere in here... Involving 'a weight being lifted' from her shoulders and the connection to leaving the M..... Rick? GM?
I'm sure it wasn't a complete shock that she wanted to do something different with her bonus (considering she hasn't done *anything* in the same way) but I bet you couldn't have ever guessed it would be *this*!!!
I hope busto finds your thread soon
Could be a mid-life self-worth thing too. My W has looked at all kinds of cosmetic stuff lately, vericose vein removeal, teeth whitening, lots of weight/loss fitness stuff, wearing much tighter clothes than she ever did. And that's just the stuff I know about....
Definitely not the wisest use of money. Has she ever spent much money on herself before? This could be more of the "time for me" attitude to the nth degree.
I love her dearly, but my WAS has gone completely off the deep end with this! She is in the process of recovering from a very close brush with death that occurred less than 1 month ago. She faces the remote possibility of needing a heart transplant and here she is planning to get a breast reduction procedure that I am sure come with its own set of potential health complications.
Honestly 2... her actions or should I say... reactions.... make perfect sense to me.
You hear it and see it in movies all the time...
.... someone is about to die or dying and has all these regrets.. all of these wishes...and all they want is another chance.
This is your w.
She almost died.
And IF she needs a transplant... she must know that finding a matching heart is hard... and even if she does, the body has to accept it.
Seriously.. If that was me... I'd be super scared.
And who knows what I would do exactly... but I do know that I would do some drastic things.
I know that because although I did come close to death, I do feel alive for the first time in awhile and so I'm doing things that I never thought I would do or things that my wife wouldn't allow me to do.
I'm debating about going sky diving. Some people would think that's awesome....
..others would think that is just as insane as getting a boob job.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions.. but it doesn't mean their opinion is my truth.
Seeing where I'm going with this?
Also, I think if this "brush with death" experience made your w run to your marriage... you wouldn't see her as crazy. You wouldn't think that particular "want" as typical WAS behavior.
But she hasn't.. at least not yet...
... instead she wants something that doesn't benefit you or your m.. and is something you can't quite put your head around....
..... so you mind read and assume she's crazy or acting like a WAS.
Stop it!
1) You know mindreading is pointless.
2) You are assuming things because you don't understand why you w is acting that way.. so you are trying to add some kind of rationalization to something that seems irrational to you.
But you can't understand her.. because it wasn't you that almost died.
That is not to down play how hard this is for you.. only to say that there is no way you can understand your w's perspective.
The only thing you can do is accept that her perspective is different.
I guess my point is just becareful with turning your thoughts.. into her reasons.
Make sense?
reading I will post real reply later. all I will say right now is valeska is wise and don't try to reason or talk ur W out of anything. let the doctors address her health issues. much more later
Sometimes I look at these wacky things as positives. Just another sign of how weird they are now. They can not remain this nuts forever,... right??
Just got caught up on your sitch 2, I've taken a break from the boards. Anyhow, you need to get back to focusing on detaching home-boy!!
And IMO I think its time you moved out again. You are caught on her emotional ride and I know you want to help and support her but she does not seem accepting of it many times.
Do you feel like things are progressing positively for you right now? Do you think they will if you continue to stay at her house?
I feel like your trip to Spain is right on time.
Also, my WAW got her 1st tatoo last week. On her wrist so not concealed in the slightest. They are hurting, scared, confused, etc.. We can't control anything they do. If she wants the surgery do your best to accept it and support her. What's the alternative, to try to control her??
Best!
First let me just say that this is NOT the first time she has said she wanted a breast augmentation procedure. She has mentioned it a few times in the past several years but I think she was afraid. She has an extremely low tolerance for pain as it is and if I recall, Busto's W had some pretty intense pain associated with her own procedure. So, no this is not random but does seem a bit irrational to me, all things considered.
Regarding her spending money on herself, let me just say that she has never been denied anything she has ever wanted. She denies herself, but I haven't denied her anything. Money has been tight since I lost my job a few years back and have been trying to make a go of things in my real estate investment business. But we've always pooled our bonus's into our savings and then dip in as needed to fund vacations, car purchases, home repairs, etc. And although I say money is tight, I only mean that in the sense of discretionary spending. We have money if we need it.
Two years ago for Valentines day I made the mistake of buying her a laser hair removal treatment for some sensitive areas on her body. At the time she said it was "the best gift you could have ever given me!"
I got it for her because she had been complaining for a long time about it and so I thought it was a thoughtful gift. I didn't however think it would fuel her need for additional treatments and other cosmetic procedures. And now that I think about it, this is when things started to turn sour in our R.
I love her dearly, but my WAS has gone completely off the deep end with this! She is in the process of recovering from a very close brush with death that occurred less than 1 month ago. She faces the remote possibility of needing a heart transplant and here she is planning to get a breast reduction procedure that I am sure come with its own set of potential health complications.
Honestly 2... her actions or should I say... reactions.... make perfect sense to me.
You hear it and see it in movies all the time...
.... someone is about to die or dying and has all these regrets.. all of these wishes...and all they want is another chance.
This is your w.
She almost died.
And IF she needs a transplant... she must know that finding a matching heart is hard... and even if she does, the body has to accept it.
Seriously.. If that was me... I'd be super scared.
And who knows what I would do exactly... but I do know that I would do some drastic things.
I know that because although I did come close to death, I do feel alive for the first time in awhile and so I'm doing things that I never thought I would do or things that my wife wouldn't allow me to do.
I'm debating about going sky diving. Some people would think that's awesome....
..others would think that is just as insane as getting a boob job.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions.. but it doesn't mean their opinion is my truth.
Seeing where I'm going with this?
Also, I think if this "brush with death" experience made your w run to your marriage... you wouldn't see her as crazy. You wouldn't think that particular "want" as typical WAS behavior.
And if she did come running back to the M then she wouldn't be a WAS and yet I'd still think her choice to want to get a breast augmentation would be irrational and even reckless.But she hasn't.. at least not yet...
... instead she wants something that doesn't benefit you or your m.. and is something you can't quite put your head around....
..... so you mind read and assume she's crazy or acting like a WAS.
Stop it!
1) You know mindreading is pointless.
2) You are assuming things because you don't understand why you w is acting that way.. so you are trying to add some kind of rationalization to something that seems irrational to you.
But you can't understand her.. because it wasn't you that almost died.
That is not to down play how hard this is for you.. only to say that there is no way you can understand your w's perspective.
The only thing you can do is accept that her perspective is different.
Reminds me of the movie Dangerous Liaisons where the John Malcovich character kept saying "it is beyond my control" as he emotionally destroys the Michelle Pfeiffer character.... while others, family, would probably be saying, well 2TP it should be in your effing control! She's your W! I guess my point is just be careful with turning your thoughts.. into her reasons.
Make sense?
This is just one area where It seems reckless for someone not to step in and help her avoid making potentially life threatening decisions. Who has that responsibility?.
"Just got caught up on your sitch 2, I've taken a break from the boards. Anyhow, you need to get back to focusing on detaching home-boy!!"
Yes, you are right.
"And IMO I think its time you moved out again. You are caught on her emotional ride and I know you want to help and support her but she does not seem accepting of it many times."
You ain't kidding!
"Do you feel like things are progressing positively for you right now? Do you think they will if you continue to stay at her house?"
No, they are not and no I don't think things will progress positively if I stay. she has said as recently as just a few days ago that she doesn't want me to leave. But it is time. Glad I paid the rent this month!
"I feel like your trip to Spain is right on time."
Yes, indeed!
"...We can't control anything they do. If she wants the surgery do your best to accept it and support her. What's the alternative, to try to control her??"
Oy! So very hard!
If things in the Universe were "normal" in 2ville...
What would your response to this be ?
In the world of the WAS...
Most will resort to fixing everything around them, that they think will make them feel better, before they become brave enough to look inside for the answers.....
How is your response to this different than it would be in the past ???
Wow, there is definitely a standard WAS pattern. My W got a tattoo on he wrist as well....
2- I am hoping that any respectable doctor would see the risk in such a procedure and advice against it. I'm also thinking that if it truly is a significant risk, their oath as a doctor would not allow them to proceed in a risky situation for something as "elective" as this.
You've seen in my sitch that I'm struggling to "step in" to stop something that could be damaging. Ultimately, we can't decide for our Ws. And if she's brought it up before and not done anything with it, maybe this is another one of those situations.
If she were to bring it up again, do you feel it would be possible to ask certain questions just to help her think through her reasons and the timing without her feeling like you were trying to tell her what to do? If so, what could you ask that would allow her to talk through it?
I vote to let her talk as much as she wants about it. She hasn't even had a consult yet, has she?
Do you really think this: while others, family, would probably be saying, well 2TP it should be in your effing control! She's your W! ? Or is it just heat of the moment stuff?
Hang in there, she's a long way from actually doing this.
"Just got caught up on your sitch 2, I've taken a break from the boards. Anyhow, you need to get back to focusing on detaching home-boy!!"
Yes, you are right.
"And IMO I think its time you moved out again. You are caught on her emotional ride and I know you want to help and support her but she does not seem accepting of it many times."
You ain't kidding!
"Do you feel like things are progressing positively for you right now? Do you think they will if you continue to stay at her house?"
No, they are not and no I don't think things will progress positively if I stay. she has said as recently as just a few days ago that she doesn't want me to leave. But it is time. Glad I paid the rent this month!
"I feel like your trip to Spain is right on time."
Yes, indeed!
"...We can't control anything they do. If she wants the surgery do your best to accept it and support her. What's the alternative, to try to control her??"
Oy! So very hard!
Stop reacting at all to her notion of a boob job. Let her Dr squash that silly notion instead.
Going to Spain is a great thing right now. Have no contact except to call, "Hi, how are ya?" and immediately ask to talk to the kids instead of trying to keep engaging her on the phone. Just let her sit and marinate with the fact that she will have to deal while you're gone. Gone, gone, gone.
It may give her a reality check of her future without you.
And btw, you say you can't move because of the kids; who will be caring for them when you're on your trip?
T2 - you know everything and anything is going to be expressed by her. That's a good thing. It means she taking things out and looking at them, and she's sharing them with you.
Think of this like they are rewiring their brains and souls, and when she shares thoughts with you, you have an opportunity. Not to step in as all of us guys do and try to take it over, evaluate it, assign a value to it, and fix it. It's our nature. You do have the opportunity to provide her with the environment where she can feel safe to take these ideas out, express them TO YOU, and then you have a chance to be like a calming agent for her, a safe place ....yes I see what you're saying, okay I get what you feel, etc.
I am not downplaying the possible medical ramifications of this, or the financial impact of this comment by her. In their state they do and say stuff like this all the time. She may never proceed with this...in fact I would place the odds as low.
You're on a heck of a spiritual journey and cleansing right now, and so is she. Theses journey's FWIW have to be made individually. I think given the two you would rather be in your shoes than hers don't you think?
BTW, your wife and mine are going through this and there's a big component for them of body image, attractiveness. It's how they have identified themselves and assigned personal value to themselves their entire lifes. A lot of pretty woman face this, and it was to be expected that it would be a factor in a life crisis for them. Ex: my S13 b-day party last March. I have over 50 kids at the house (you know how much my S13 likes to throw parties!), and she disappears without notice. So me and my S24 are in charge of a house full of hormone crazed teens and the numbers against us are daunting, yet poof she's gone. Turns out she thought it was a fine moment to go get a piercing, in a place where, well I guess you can imagine, a place that is pretty much a vague memory. There's just no point in assigning our value system to someone in the biggest fight of their lives.
Let her go, and love her still.
fist-bump to 2Pac
Let her go, and love her still.
fist-bump to 2Pac
Like ^^^
If things in the Universe were "normal" in 2ville...
What would your response to this be ?
In the world of the WAS...
Most will resort to fixing everything around them, that they think will make them feel better, before they become brave enough to look inside for the answers.....
How is your response to this different than it would be in the past ???
If things were normal, I’d be supportive of her wanting to do this.
Other than my post here, I’ve had no response to her declaration. Probably just a raised eyebrow because I was just so shocked to hear it considering her health scare.
If she were to bring it up again, do you feel it would be possible to ask certain questions just to help her think through her reasons and the timing without her feeling like you were trying to tell her what to do? If so, what could you ask that would allow her to talk through it?
Well she kind of brought it up today in a joking way. I informed her that her bonus check was deposited into our checking account today and that I moved the money into savings where she can get to it whenever she wants. When I told her this she says, well maybe I’ll just get one boob done!
I’m letting it go. She’ll learn quickly enough whether or not she is healthy enough for this type of thing. I’m still interested in what all is entailed and the recovery from such a procedure. I suspect Busto will be along later to fill me in along with some other kernels of wisdom.
Do you really think this: while others, family, would probably be saying, well 2TP it should be in your effing control! She's your W! ? Or is it just heat of the moment stuff?
I would only think this if she were to proceed with the procedure. I think their shock would be equal to mine.
T2 - you know everything and anything is going to be expressed by her. That's a good thing. It means she taking things out and looking at them, and she's sharing them with you.
...You do have the opportunity to provide her with the environment where she can feel safe to take these ideas out, express them TO YOU, and then you have a chance to be like a calming agent for her, a safe place ....yes I see what you're saying, okay I get what you feel, etc.
You're on a heck of a spiritual journey and cleansing right now, and so is she. Theses journey's FWIW have to be made individually. I think given the two you would rather be in your shoes than hers don't you think?
Let her go, and love her still.
Good perspective, Rick. And I like that last part, especially.
In one of my early afternoon posts from yesterday, (#2227701 - Yesterday at 01:06 PM) I was reflecting on some of the comments that Sandi2 had shared with CV regarding her journey as a WAS and how I wished my W would have those same realizations as Sandi had.
Today, I went to see my C and ended up in a double session and for the first time since I started seeing him, the tears were flowing. But only after I began to read the post to him that I referenced above.
I don't know what came over me. It was such an emotional moment. I guess I'm feeling like the only way my W and I are ever going to be able to piece our M back together is if she has a similar awakening as Sandi described.
And then I see she posted this today:
Just b/c I was able to finally forgive my H, and I got all that bitterness out, I did not immediately have a waterfall of loving feelings come blasting into my heart. It would have been nice, but it didn't happen for me. I had to still have some space (used it mostly on the DB board), and I had to have time to get stronger. That healing process is not for the LBS only. I think he was not ready for me to fall all over him. He needed some time to deal with his side of the pain and heal also. Some couples may feel they have to be glued to each others hip to heal, but my H and I aren't that way. It came in stages or steps, as we were able to move forward, and as we moved forward the " Y " in the road eventually became one lane again.
I started to make a conscious effort to show respect to him. In the past, I felt he didn't deserve my respect b/c he didn't live up to my expectations. It was a big problem. I learned from people here and I began to open my eyes and heart and see all the areas I could respect him. It was a starting point.
I took a conscious effort to speak with a nice tone of voice (a respectful way) when speaking to him. I made an effort to not make facial expressions that spoke a different language from my words. (That always bothered him a lot.)
I made a conscious effort to see the good in him and the things he does. I made an effort to remember why I fell in love with him (thanks to this board).
Little steps at a time went on for a long time and ever so slowly my feelings for him began to change.
So much wisdom and effort to make it work in this post. Just Wow!
==================
One last thing; I got a good perspective on validation and pursuit from my C today. He said to think about what firemen are paid to do. They put out fires. But only when they are "called" to do so. They don't go around blasting water into structures that aren't on fire.
So when your S makes comments and our need to go in and rescue or put out the fire starts to rise up, think about whether or not you are actually getting the "call". If you aren't then simply say, I understand, let me know if there is anything I can do to help and then move on.
For some reason that really resonated with me today.
Quick update:
One other thing that my C helped me to understand and perhaps visualize is as it pertains to the emotional roller coaster that all of us ride from time to time. He said to actually visualize standing in line queuing up to get on the ride.
He said to think of yourself as a single rider standing in line and the emotional roller coaster pulls up and it is your turn to get on. But, because it is an emotional roller coaster you have to physically step back and let another group of riders get on and allow the ride to leave the station with out you.
I thought that was a pretty good visual and it kind of helped me out this afternoon.
=============
This afternoon, W calls up to me and asks if I was planning to take S10 to baseball practice (starts in 20 mins). To do so required that he be picked up from school and then either brought back home to change or change in the car on the way to practice. I hadn't planned on taking him to practice but agreed to do so if she would pull his stuff together which she did.
So I leave to get son from school, get all the way over to the practice fields (fighting traffic the entire time and barely getting there in time) only to discover that we didn't have his glove or bat. Now I'm agitated because I will now have to make the trek back home get his stuff and then trek back to the fields.
I call my W to see if she knows where the gear is and she can tell I'm agitated and starts to get pissy. I know I provoked it due to my agitation. Anyway, she complains "now I'll have to bring the gear by...." I tell her, never mind, I'll come home and get the gear.
On the ride home I'm pretty annoyed and can feel my agitation growing because we are now late, i'm fighting traffic, everyone is going 10 miles below the speed limit, every light is red, etc.
Then..... I start to think about the roller coaster visual and slowly... I start to calm down. Of course the damage was already done, but I think that at least I noticed it and made an effort to adjust my mindset. Now I just need to get it to kick in a lot earlier.
I think I'm getting there, slowly but surely.
Every one of these sitch's is an opportunity to do a little better each time. How'd it go after practice and you were home for the evening?
Good for you for recognizing it and choosing to make yourself relax. Of course you would have liked it to happen quicker, but I'm sure you'll exercise that 'muscle' and it will become easier wach time
I think you did amazing today. Reacting to traffic triggers even keeled people as well. The fact that you calmed yourself down it a testament to all the work you have done. Next time it will happen faster, for sure. Just by you seeing your fustration you have changed your reaction next time. Way to go!
Hey 2tp. I hope things are going as well as they can under the circumstances. You've given me some good advice...would you mind taking a look at my post on my thread this morning? Thanks.
Your C sounds like a very wise person! Thanks for sharing different techniques with us. It's so easy to get wrapped up in everyday stress. I know I get easily agitated when I'm late to something and when in traffic. When I hear my S4 being a backseat driver and start saying things like "go people" or "come on, what's taking so long", it reminds me how I need to slow down and watch what I as, as it does spill over.
Awesome job putting your C's suggestion into practice!
Feeling a little bummed at the moment. W just now tells me that with my upcoming trip to Spain which will have me away for over a week that she needs to get back into her routine of managing things on her own and that it is probably best for me to leave soon.
I knew this day was coming, but it still kind of feels like rejection all over again.
Compounding things is that I was helping her send a fax today and as she was flipping between various windows on her laptop, I notice one window with the OM's resume on it. It really hurts to have that reminder pop right up in my face again.
Sigh!
Oh, forgot to mention that W also informed me that her brother would not be coming for a visit at Easter. I asked her why not and she said that she didn't think that it was a good idea considering she still has Dr's appointments and needs to have a TEE test performed and needs to get back to work, etc.
So I guess that little dilemma has been resolved.
Every one of these sitch's is an opportunity to do a little better each time. How'd it go after practice and you were home for the evening?
Things were pretty tense in the house last night. Don’t know if it had anything to do with my little episode or the full moon, or something else. When I got home W was in a pissy mood. Some of it had to do with S13’s attitude and him slacking on some of his homework assignments. Everyone pretty much kept to themselves for the rest of the evening.
Good for you for recognizing it and choosing to make yourself relax. Of course you would have liked it to happen quicker, but I'm sure you'll exercise that 'muscle' and it will become easier with time
I think you did amazing today. Reacting to traffic triggers even keeled people as well. The fact that you calmed yourself down it a testament to all the work you have done. Next time it will happen faster, for sure. Just by you seeing your frustration you have changed your reaction next time. Way to go!
Thanks Purg and BK. It was really an interesting moment for me. I was getting myself all wound up. Normally this would devolve into a rage. But after a couple of minutes and with me making a conscious decision to tone it down, I managed to get myself under control. It was not easy by any stretch. If it is in fact a muscle, then I need to get pumped up because it is pretty weak!
Your C sounds like a very wise person! Thanks for sharing different techniques with us. It's so easy to get wrapped up in everyday stress. I know I get easily agitated when I'm late to something and when in traffic. When I hear my S4 being a backseat driver and start saying things like "go people" or "come on, what's taking so long", it reminds me how I need to slow down and watch what I as, as it does spill over.
Awesome job putting your C's suggestion into practice!
Funny you should say this because I sometimes don’t think we connect very well. I mean he is nice and sincere but I sometimes wonder if I’m really getting anything out of our sessions other than to use him as a sounding board. And then, I get two great pieces of advice and I start to think that maybe there is hope!
I’m glad you and possibly others get some value out of my posts. I’m a big believer of paying it forward whenever possible. I think that comes from my years when I was a teenager and young adult when so many people helped me when I was in desperate need. I sometimes wish I could go back and track all these people down just to say thank you, one last time. So, here I am.
Glad the brother isn't coming and sorry that about the "time to go" message. That & the OM reminder just bites.
Keep your head up and keep acting confident. That will confuse the cr@p out of her! Honestly, I think the more positive you can be about leaving the better it is for you. Better to see you leaving in a good mood than sad or depressed. Leave her with that view of you to really think about what she's letting walk out the door..
Agree w/ fist bump master ^^^^^^.
Yeah, the OM sitch is the gift that just keeps taking. No wonder she's a basket case since that issue is still out there. I'm really sorry to hear that. You did so much for her that is admirable and your kids saw it all live and in the flesh. That can't be taken away from you no matter where she is now or in futurama.
Your kids will always know how you stood for this M no matter the outcome, and they will always know she stepped out of bounds with this goofball. Given the two, you or her, whose shoes would you rather be in?
=@ @=
Time to close this thread and start a new one.
Before I go, I just wanted to comment briefly about the title of this thread, "picking weeds and planting seeds". My reason behind the title had to do with the notion that since my W and I were back under the same roof (albeit only temporarily) now was a good time to pull out some of the weeds in our R and also maybe plant a few seeds of hope for the future.
As you read back through the posts in this thread, perhaps you will see where I really made an effort to improve the communication between my W and I; where I took some risks in confronting long standing communication patterns that invariably lead to misunderstanding, control and other problematic R dynamics.
I also am getting better at understanding triggers and am working very hard to detect them and control them. It is a slow process but I do believe I am making progress.
And so it is these actions that I view as the picking of weeds and planting of seeds. Only time will tell if the seeds will germinate and the weeds remain at bay.
==========================
Here is the link to my new thread:
Finding my way through the fog