Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: rickb89 DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 02/28/12 06:24 PM
Hello Friends, Romans and Countrymen:

I just read for the first time, the six stages of a MLC. I do think she is in a MLC but add the childhood psyche issues into the mix and its a hornet's nest.

I think she's coming out of replay stage and entering the depression stage. I see now how much time each of these stages can take. The vets were right, this can take a long time.

This may sound odd but I'm actually enjoying the part about focusing on myself. It's like I have been granted this time out and the ability to evaluate my whole life and see where I developed harmful habits, know why and where they came from, and realize that I know how to move beyond them into a better realm. I'm not sure if this chance would have ever came if she didn't have this happen to her, or maybe it would have come about in some other fashion.

I do really miss having a partner. Maybe this was the only way to get to a place of having a much better partnership. Who knows? Maybe I would have been different had I been with someone else? Hard to say.
Posted By: nhmom Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 02/28/12 06:35 PM
hey there!

Glad to see you're alive and well! I've read somewhere that childhood issues can play a big role in MLC's.

I applaud you for taking the time to focus on yourself. I read a wise person's comment on someone's thread that the WAS is giving the LBS a gift, the gift of time. You have "received" this gift well. I wish I could say the same for me. But because you are doing so well focusing on yourself, it gives me inspiration and motivation to do the same!
Posted By: ces67 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 02/28/12 06:38 PM
Originally Posted By: rickb89
I just read for the first time, the six stages of a MLC. I do think she is in a MLC but add the childhood psyche issues into the mix and its a hornet's nest.


Hey Rick, just curious where you saw these 6 stages? Thanks.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 02/28/12 09:18 PM
Originally Posted By: ces67
Originally Posted By: rickb89
I just read for the first time, the six stages of a MLC. I do think she is in a MLC but add the childhood psyche issues into the mix and its a hornet's nest.


Hey Rick, just curious where you saw these 6 stages? Thanks.


Go to Active Topics/MLC Resources/thread - 6 stages of MLC by Heart Blessings. It really fits what I'm seeing but will have to read this a few times and chew on it a while. Best of luck to you CES!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 02/28/12 10:49 PM
Originally Posted By: nhmom
hey there!

Glad to see you're alive and well! I've read somewhere that childhood issues can play a big role in MLC's.

Makes sense and considering her trauma at at early age I'm not suprised. It's like she lived in a self protective shell for ever and it finally erupted. Now she has to figure out all the answers at once, answers that you and I figured out for ourselves as we lived our lives. It's sad for me to think I have been married to someone who never really knew herself, and that means I never really knew her either.

I applaud you for taking the time to focus on yourself. I read a wise person's comment on someone's thread that the WAS is giving the LBS a gift, the gift of time.

[color:#CC0000]I think Mach posted that comment[/color].

You have "received" this gift well. I wish I could say the same for me. But because you are doing so well focusing on yourself, it gives me inspiration and motivation to do the same!


I think we all prop each other up where needed. Some days I help someone, somedays they help me.

I really think you have a good chance that your H will return to earth. Just keep calm as best you can, and vent her or anywhere but to him! I'm realizing that no matter how much time this takes, whatever we think we can handle, it will take longer than that for our spouses to figure themselves out and realize the love of their life is right their with them already.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 02/29/12 03:09 AM
Rick I think Purg was looking for you over on her thread. Here is the LINK . Look for post # 2225183.

Hope you are doing well today.
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 02/29/12 03:10 AM
Rick, I don't think it's odd at all to be "enjoying" this time to yourself. I think in M, it's so easy to have lives that are so intertwined that it's hard to realize where one person ends and the other begins. And although this situation is a super downer.. There is a beauty in rediscovering ourselves as individuals.

As for your question about being different of you were with someone else.. Yes you would be. Different people.. Different dynamics. Maybe you would have been kinder.. Maybe not. No sense in wondering the what ifs. Because maybe you wouldn't be the father of 3 wonderful boys.. And maybe you wouldn't have the "adopted" daughter.. And maybe you wouldn't have ended up here on the boards to be the speedo wearing eggplant!!

You have been an incredibly supportive friend to many here so.. I wouldn't have my life any other way. I don't think you would either wink
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 02/29/12 03:15 AM
laugh laugh laugh speedo wearing eggplant!
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 02/29/12 03:24 AM
Rick and Labug may have learning disabilities or ADHD? Dunno .
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 02/29/12 03:24 AM
Thanks 2Pac hope you're well too!
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 02/29/12 03:27 AM
Quote:
Rick and Labug may have learning disabilities or ADHD? Dunno .


Tonight I am grateful that you guys can make me laugh! Out loud! Something I hadn't done a lot of in the last 11+ months.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 02/29/12 03:29 AM
Originally Posted By: labug
Quote:
Rick and Labug may have learning disabilities or ADHD? Dunno .


Tonight I am grateful that you guys can make me laugh! Out loud! Something I hadn't done a lot of in the last 11+ months.


The house is very quiet at the moment and even I laughed out loud! I still have a smile on my face!
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 02/29/12 03:30 AM
U really wanna laugh hard read 2s above acouple of them above.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 02/29/12 03:35 AM
Banana - you continue to provide me and everyone else with such sensible peaceful wisdom. I love way you look at things. Your kids are incredibly fortunate to have you.

When i am thinking outloud here on the boards, your insights have a way of calming me down and its just the right way of saying it so that it kind of locks in for me, so thanks!

Just got home from yoga so feeling pretty good. Hope you have a good night.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 02/29/12 03:38 AM
Gee thanks Rick1963!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 02/29/12 06:15 PM
Originally Posted By: ces67
Originally Posted By: rickb89
I just read for the first time, the six stages of a MLC. I do think she is in a MLC but add the childhood psyche issues into the mix and its a hornet's nest.


Hey Rick, just curious where you saw these 6 stages? Thanks.


CES - go to Purg's thread "If you like Pina Collatas" and follow the link in her thread. You'll see.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/01/12 03:14 AM
For some reason W is on another downward swing and has been giving me the possessed glare for two days. Maybe I haven't sacrificed enough for her?

Anyone know a good excorcist?
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/01/12 03:22 AM
I don't know any exorcists but my D claims to be a witch.

I'm not sure what's worse.. The death glare or the I'm so sorry I hurt you look. Hmmmm..

Is she speaking in coherent sentences or just moaning and making zombieish noises? You know what you have to do if it's the latter.. Run like h#ll! A good reason to always keep a full gas tank.
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/01/12 03:27 AM
bf, you are cracking me up tonight!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/01/12 03:41 AM
Banana....you never fail to cheer me up!

If your daughter is up to the task then yes if she could cast some love spells for me but make sure she gets it right. Say she is off by just a bit and W falls in love with the blender.

Speaking of zombies. My cat died last night. RIP Nate. Can he come back as a Zombie?
Posted By: BklynMom Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/01/12 04:02 AM
A friend of mine gave me the phone number of a witch that she suggests I contact to put a spell on my H. I am totally serious. I am considering it. Why not try everything???

She will also make me a love potion perfume.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/01/12 05:19 AM
zombies, speedo wearing eggplants, dead cats, witches spells and love potions... what on earth is this forum turning into? crazy
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/01/12 05:29 AM
Don't forget the hamster eating dog that didn't actually eat the hamster
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/01/12 05:50 PM
Originally Posted By: BklynMom
A friend of mine gave me the phone number of a witch that she suggests I contact to put a spell on my H. I am totally serious. I am considering it. Why not try everything???

She will also make me a love potion perfume.


Imagine you're hurrying home with the love potion and you accidently spill it on the garbage man!

Hey, how about a voodoo doll for that woman your husband hangs with?
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/01/12 05:51 PM
Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
zombies, speedo wearing eggplants, dead cats, witches spells and love potions... what on earth is this forum turning into? crazy


Is any of this weirder than our sitches?

Barely...back me up on this - we're not totally in La La land!
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/01/12 05:57 PM
Don't forget the Star Wars themed confectionaries.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/01/12 06:03 PM
I'm refocusing today on continuing the march from Jersey to LA (as Mach spelled it out to G-monk) for me, W and kids. I need to keep a bunch of mantras simultaneously broadcasting in my head and heart (you know, like the Dear Leader does for his people in North Korea): step...listen, step...listen, step...listen, step....listen

- pray and listen for divine whispers
- focus on me
- change what I need to change in me to lead a better life
- show the kids a noble life
- be the pillar of strength my W can latch onto when she needs to

This requires constant attention because I'm taking everything in my life out and looking at it, then I find that I get confused, have doubts, talk to everyone here, then somehow manage to get it together for more marching.
Posted By: purgatory Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/01/12 06:24 PM
Originally Posted By: rickb89
Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
zombies, speedo wearing eggplants, dead cats, witches spells and love potions... what on earth is this forum turning into? crazy


Is any of this weirder than our sitches?

Barely...back me up on this - we're not totally in La La land!


This sounds like a party to me!! We could have bklyn's witch come and make us all love potions and teach us how to put spells on the OW/OM in our sitchs... Labug can bring the wookie cookies.... Mnky can bring LOTR b/c Bug confessed she's never seen them...
And everyone can dress comfortably instead of always trying to look our best, or we could just wear our underware like 2TP has started to do around his house!

Who's in??
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/01/12 06:27 PM
I'm there!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/01/12 06:34 PM
Purg....you're reminding me of the guys in Animal House. Replace togas with underwear? Okay, but only if I can wear some Winnie the Pooh briefs.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/01/12 10:41 PM
Originally Posted By: purgatory
Originally Posted By: rickb89
Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
zombies, speedo wearing eggplants, dead cats, witches spells and love potions... what on earth is this forum turning into? crazy


Is any of this weirder than our sitches?

Barely...back me up on this - we're not totally in La La land!


This sounds like a party to me!! We could have bklyn's witch come and make us all love potions and teach us how to put spells on the OW/OM in our sitchs... Labug can bring the wookie cookies.... Mnky can bring LOTR b/c Bug confessed she's never seen them...
And everyone can dress comfortably instead of always trying to look our best, or we could just wear our underware like 2TP has started to do around his house!

Who's in??


You guys are crazy! And I say that with the most respect and admiration one can muster while wearing a green Borak swim thong! laugh
Posted By: ces67 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/01/12 10:42 PM
My eyes are burning and I'm only reading this.....
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/02/12 01:00 AM
i may need to self medicate. lol!

eggie.. i'm sorry. when i read your last post.. i couldn't stop adding.. during the apocalypse to everything. frown wink
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/02/12 01:33 AM
Man, I'm at work and you guys were planning a party!

Wookie Cookies it will be!

Can we also have adult beverages?
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/02/12 01:42 AM
Originally Posted By: BklynMom
A friend of mine gave me the phone number of a witch that she suggests I contact to put a spell on my H. I am totally serious. I am considering it. Why not try everything???

She will also make me a love potion perfume.


when someone says "why not try everything?" I always think of people who say "what's the worst that can happen?" and then it happens...

On Buffy the Vampire slayer the Love potion went to the wrong people and she had stalkers galore...

Another time they put a spell on someone but it didn't work the way they expected it too (apparently spells are to be taken literally)

so I guess I'd say, "hmm, don't..."

but self medicating with wine or margueritas is always FINE and totally acceptable. Especially if you do it here, "virtually" for the party.

I hope we have some MLC/WAS videotapes of their rationalizations, which are always good for a laugh, or are we watching their parade go by?

Make popcorn and get the drinks. The sun is so bright I have my shades on.

Hope this makes sense to you as it did for the vets here, and the Pool Boys (oh--the men here are all pool boys that serve us, and we are all very appreciative and give them positive words of affirmation all the time)

cool
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/02/12 01:43 AM
I consider sitting on the sidelines for the parade I am not IN,

or watching the MLC/WAS tapes, to be essential to Detachment,

only way more fun...and it's illustrative too!

cool
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/02/12 01:56 AM
"Hope this makes sense to you as it did for the vets here, and the Pool Boys (oh--the men here are all pool boys that serve us, and we are all very appreciative and give them positive words of affirmation all the time)"

Thats pretty damn funny, 25! You do know that lately the "pool boys" around here have been wearing some pretty skimpy bathing suits. laugh
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/02/12 03:27 AM
Banana....I like to think I bring out the creative side in you....you know like creating bacon perfume...no dead cats in my house tonight....i guess that qualifies as a successful night!
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/02/12 03:39 AM
My sister and I were talking about how D said I smelled like twabewwies... My sister said she smelled like meat... I said that was good if it was bacon.. One thing lead to another and voilą.. Eau de back-on in a bacon shaped bottle!

Lol my kids love kitties. They would be devastated to see one.. Sleeping. What's on the GAL menu for the weekend?
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/02/12 03:48 AM
25 - sure, I'll volunteer for poolside duty,its part of my GAL agenda!

Hey, you know my friend Kelli i have spoken about....if you watch Buffy V Slayer they do this thing when Buffy enters the room and they play the song Six Underground? That's her singing it! I think it shows her in the credits sometimes under her maiden name, Kelli Dayton. Its weird to hear it there because i flash back to when we were a lot younger and were playing with lyrics while riding the tube in London. You can youtube it under her old band Sneaker Pimps or under her married name, Kelli Ali. I get a kick out of how it ended up on this show.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/02/12 03:53 AM
Barely....hmmmm....GAL agenda for the weekend....a lot of driving Miss Daisy duty for my S13, definitely go to a movie with the boys and friends, yoga, reading, and cant forget Walking Dead Sunday night.

What about you? What am I missing?
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/02/12 04:21 AM
Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
"Hope this makes sense to you as it did for the vets here, and the Pool Boys (oh--the men here are all pool boys that serve us, and we are all very appreciative and give them positive words of affirmation all the time)"

Thats pretty damn funny, 25! You do know that lately the "pool boys" around here have been wearing some pretty skimpy bathing suits. laugh


indeed I do know. Hence the pool party...and by the way, I'm thirsty.

cool
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/02/12 04:39 AM
LOL!! Ah yes Madame, what may I bring you to quench your thirst?

Wait, are you staring at me? Please stop I get embarrassed easily. blush
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/04/12 05:07 AM
A husband walks into a bar with a WAW on his shoulder and the bartender says..........

Okay so I'm walking thru the kitchen and my W stops me and says that because I have my own life she should learn to handle her own finances. So I calmly work towards figuring out what she means. I tell her that I emailed her with a suggested way of doing this when she said last time that it was important to her, and that she never responded, so is that what you want to do or do you have something else you're thinking? She says we are leading separate lives so we should separate the finances. Note that this has been a big thing for her forever but she has never actually stepped up to do something about it. So I say do you want to do this now? She doesn't. She says this way of living suxx and it's killing her. I ask her what she wants or needs to do. She says (and I knew she would see my GAL and detachment this way) that since we lead totally separate lives she hates it here. So I say that she is giving me contradictory messages. She pushes me away completely and then is unhappy that I'm not with her like before. She says she is not actually doing anything. She's just completely unable to get a hold on what to do in anything and absolutely has nothing in the tank at all. That opens the door for a 3 hr Gilligan tour of our entire history and everything going on now.

Without including all the dialogue here it basically comes down to that this past year was inevitable with all that was going on in the past, and it was in its own way a year in which we both looked inward and both have changed in many ways, so what to do?

I took the road of handling it in a positive manner, reviewing everything that had happened and saying how with the changes in us we can handle it in a way more condusive to a better partnership, gave examples, and how we can look forward as more evolved partners, no dependency, just two evolved people sharing each other by choice and enhancing each others life journey's. Basically, saying that even though our tanks are empty right now, if we just allow each day to unfold we can rebuild the love and passion step by step, in a much better way than how we started off as teenagers, in a more mature evolved manner. I felt completely calm, was easily able to hear everything she said no matter how good or bad I perceived it to be, and told her flat out that I just spent the last year 24/7, even in my dreams working on this and on me. I said that the old us is gone and can be replaced by the next version. A big point for me is that I don't think love is like a bank account that you stick a million dollars in on day one and it carries you through the rest of your days. Instead it requires continual investment, like a garden needs constant caring and gentle tending. Anyway I'm willing to move on this way and it just requires the will to take the first few baby steps and that's how you start a new life.

Her reaction was all over the place. i can see that she's burnt out, confused, cynical, afraid, angry, defensive, and would angrily keep going to the past. Anytime she did I would validate it and where I could point to a positive change in one or both of us that would better serve us in the future.

At first she was seeming to be very agreeable to the discussion as a positive. The she 180'd and said she can't do this, she hates it here and wants out. So i said okay if that what you want then I'll move on too and I think this is a tragic lost opportunity. BTW, although we did not communicate well thru our M, we never got into "fights" in the sense of screaming and all that, so this entire conversation was calm like we usually are. Then she says that she should just disappear and then none of us will be affected by her. I say to her whatever we do is going to affect all of us for ever, and that disappearing will have its own affects. Then she leads the discussion back to the topic of what has been, and what could be going forward.

By now I'm literally exhausted and so is she. I ask her do you have any idea of what you want to do, as an individual and as a married partner. She says she has no idea what she wants or what to do, or even how to make the simplest step.


I tell her that we could choose the path of a new life, where she works on figuring out what she needs to do as an individual, has my full support, we walk the walk together stpe by step and give each other strength in ways we didn't before, don't forget the past but don't drag it along with us as an anchor, and we rejuvinate us day by day. Sounds good to me anyway. I tell her that's what I got and I'm not going to live any kind of life with anyone that isn't at least open to walking in the direction of a life together as partners so if you can't do it I'm going to do that somewhere.

She says she doesn't know what to do and sleepwalks upstairs to her monk's cell.

It felt good to get it all out, and she's the one that brought this all up. Honestly. I've never seen anyone with so many emotions good and bad play across their face.

I also felt very accepting of her one of many non-decisions when she said she wanted out. All of this detaching and soul searching has really helped me. I'm not saying I was Spock the Vulcan emotionally. I just has an easy calm acceptance to that possibility. Something Barely said today about how she will use Retroville to hopefully salvage her M, but if it didn't she would use what she learned to benefit her in her next. I thought that at that moment and felt I was totally in synch with that.

So now I have to decide how to handle this going forward. And I would LOVE some feedback, need it in fact.

Here's what I think at the moment and will definitely be mulling it over. I go active in a gentle way with her again, keep doing the things I was doing before - movies, museums, sporting events; let her live some sort of "us". I just let her simmer with this entire conversation while in the environment of a not completely separate life environment. Going semi-dark on her just doesn't seem to get her jump started to claw out of her depths, but I could be way wrong here in that maybe it's the only way. I really don't know.

I don't see her as a fighter for "us" even by taking the simplest steps, but maybe it's just because she can't as opposed to won't. In this discussion it really hit me that my love tank has gone empty too, and i did mention that it can be filled maybe not in one big blast but in day by day increments. I have never worked harder at anything in my life than this past year, and have been rebuffed the entire way yet she is still here. I'm not sure if its because she's not sure about us, or she doesn't have it together enough to bolt.

In any event I enter the new day still with a huge question mark in my life, and a very strong desire to be with a loving partner, which may not be her.

Christ carried the cross for what, one day? He got off easy. Right about now I'd trade spots with him.

Please friends send your wisdom to this home in the woods of New England! Grazie.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/04/12 05:44 AM
I just read your post but honestly don't have it in me right now to provide a meaningful response. I'll post something tomorrow.

In the meantime, I think you need to really think about what it is going to mean for you to re-engage with your W again and how that will affect your longer term goals.

Also, I know you went semi-dark and there is fallout from that approach, but maybe you need to be more assertive in your detachment. You know, like set her completely free and see where she ends up. It won't be easy and I'm sure it will be quite frightening for both of you. It may also take several months for things to work themselves out. So, be prepared for that if it comes to it.

Have you given any thought to setting your W up in her own place (not sure if you can swing that financially) but that would be one way to really get your W to wake up to the reality of her sitch.

Just some random thoughts. I'll post more tomorrow.

Take care!
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/04/12 03:15 PM
On the other side...

What kinds of things did you 2 enjoy doing as a couple when times were good? Would she be willing to have a "date" once a week or every 2 weeks? Would you be willing?

I think every time she drags it back to the past you should remind her that the past is over and if we can't let it go we relive it over and over. "W, I only want to look forward now"

Or is that true? Do you have a vision of the man you want to be? What is that?
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/04/12 04:07 PM
Labug...I am the man I want to be. It's self confidence, self actualized, loving father, friend to many, spiritual walker, giver, lover without hangups or baggage, adventurer, dreamer, writer, citizen of humanity, yogi, warrior, peacemaker.

I know who I am although I did need this past year to break out of some childhood trauma. I was this man as I describe in my M. I chose her and willingly took her baggage and issues because the great so far outweighted the issues, but unknowingly accepted what ultimately turned out to be a real challenge. I know my role in our problems, know its source, owned it, fixed it, apoligized for whatever hardships I contributed. I have been as loving as any man could ever be for a woman and she's not even in a place to love herself, never mind live with my love. It's a f'ing tragedy because she's too far gone and we're all going to take a soul beating for the rest of our live...her, me. my kids, future garndkids will never know the family we once were, a family that everyone loved, looked up to and wanted to be part of.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/04/12 05:20 PM
I am very sad today, the saddest I've ever felt. What was a possible outcome for me has to be made real. I have to let her go sink or swim, protect the family, protect me. I hear my boys and "daughter" in the house going about their day and realize what a shitt bomb they are getting dealt, but know that the current reality is far worse if nothing is done. I vowed to love this woman forever, and to give my boys the family I never had, and I vowed that if things got tough I would never stop until I'm dead to make it work. Sadly, if a change isn't made what's on life support will truly do permanent damage, beyond what horror has been visited on this family.

I listened to her last night for three hours. This morning when I left for yoga, she was out walking so I purposely took a route where I would not see her. Ironically, she was on the road I was on so I stopped and we spoke some more. Some points:

- I don't think she can make it out of the place she's in unless she is on her own. She needs to find out who and what she is, and grow up and get some adult skills. This past year has been nothing but a nightmarish purgatory on the home front and I really don't see any gains for her, never mind our M. In fact, in some ways I see her going backwards.

- she says she has driven everyone away from her and she expects to be alone, that she has alienated her kids, me, her Mom (who is moving out because of it). She says she can see how difficult it's going to be when things come up in the future like kid's weddings, grandkids, etc. However, she does not believe in any of the points I made to her last night about the positives, and a way to build a new M (see a few posts back), doesn't believe in those principles for us or anyone.

- she said today and has said before that she was never herself for many years, did not know who or what she was and went on autopilot but truly was not part of it, nor could manage to speak of it because of her communication hangups. That fact doesn't nake me feel all warm and fuzzy about our past, that she was zombiefied for years.

- investment companies say past performance is no indicator of future success. DB'ing says don't believe what you hear, and half of what you see. I do belive what I've seen and heard for the last year, and i do believe it does point towards future success or lack of it.

- I need to protect my kids. This has killed them all, and is making their lives horrible. My S13 was pretty upset this summer and started to act out viscously and aggresively. Every night I would take him for these long walk through the countryside and we would talk about it, and I would share with him how I suffered the same fate at a close age to his. I was able to get him back on track. Where was his Mom during this? Out f'ing around with her new lifestyle.

- I need to protect my finances. She's a walking deficit machine. She's never had any experience other than spending. I've offered throughout our whole M to teach her and she's never gotten it or worked with it. She's going to get a rude awakening because I intend to split it all up and she sinks or swims on her own. I still have two kids in college and one to go. I support them, her, her MIL, my "daughter". It's a huge burden. She does have a career now that the kids are older so she has an income, and she has contributed to the family finances but then negates it all with fiscal insanity.

- I have to redo the house back to some sense of normality. When she was home she would do some of the stuff the house required, but that all stopped a long time ago. Some times I feel like I'm living in that house in Fight Club. And she has taken on a Howard Hughes type existance, so although I have help from the kids, her crisis keeps bringing things back down in the state of the house. If I need to sell it once she's gone then i need to get it ready, and can't have a financial black hole preventing it.

- I have replayed the many posts to me from the team over and over again, and one thing I keep hearing is that I should stand for my M, and then I wonder what does standing for it exactly mean? Does that mean I let this continue because she needs support and we all go down? Can't I, with good moral backing, let her go out into the world and find her path as a parent sometimes has to do for a troubled kid? Isn't me taking control of my life, protecting my kids, giving her the chance to grow albiet by letting her go, actually standing for what is right?

I remember when the bomb first dropped, my first instinct was to take her at her word, that she didn't want a M or family and we would never have it again. I ended up, based on both fear, and on everything I was seeing in her, and what I believed about how families help each other that we could work together to get through this, and there would be a safe haven for her to work through her breakdown. In the end I do think it would have been wiser to just take her at her word. Okay go, and we'll see what happens. That might have forced breakthroughs that didn't happen in this environment.

I'm thinking I have to take this in steps. Let her go, regroup, repair the finances, the house. Get used to it all.

There's this three day period in May when I have our anniversary, my S21 b-day and mine. Last year she managed to forget them all, or not acknowledge any of it. My S21 was crushed because it was his 21st after all. It was truly awful to see what state she was in and how what once was the mother of all time had changed.

Maybe I will re-evalute then, and see if I need to take legal steps, and that gives her a cuople of months where the Rick train has moved on.

I'm sharing with you guys the biggest, scariest decision I have ever made. You guys know more about me in this than my own family or closest friends. I appreciate good, honest feedback, whether you agree or not.

Peace and love
Posted By: purgatory Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/04/12 06:10 PM
All I can offer is a hug (((((((((((( Rick )))))))))))))

No one can fault you for coming to this conclusion, you've given so much energy, thoughts an prayers to your sitch over the past year.

It must feel like the ground is dropping out from under you, faith and prayer will keep you from falling.


You've always been a shining spirit on these boards, I hope that we can help you gain your sparkle back.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/04/12 06:23 PM
Quote:
"I have replayed the many posts to me from the team over and over again, and one thing I keep hearing is that I should stand for my M, and then I wonder what does standing for it exactly mean? Does that mean I let this continue because she needs support and we all go down? Can't I, with good moral backing, let her go out into the world and find her path as a parent sometimes has to do for a troubled kid? Isn't me taking control of my life, protecting my kids, giving her the chance to grow albiet by letting her go, actually standing for what is right?"


I think the answer lies in the last question in your paragraph above. Standing for your M doesn't mean ignoring the elephant in the room. You need to deal with this differently than you have been. What you have been doing hasn't worked, so now it is time to do something different.

Quote:
I remember when the bomb first dropped, my first instinct was to take her at her word, that she didn't want a M or family and we would never have it again..... In the end I do think it would have been wiser to just take her at her word. Okay go, and we'll see what happens. That might have forced breakthroughs that didn't happen in this environment.


I agree with this ^^^. Sometimes people have to hit bottom or at least face their demons head on in order to find themselves, breakthrough to the other side. What is on the other side is unknown but there is another side. So you've tried one approach and it really hasn't worked out. Now it is time for plan B. Nothing wrong with that. And you may still ultimately get what you want out of this, albeit via a different path.

Quote:
I'm thinking I have to take this in steps. Let her go, regroup, repair the finances, the house. Get used to it all.


Rick, based upon everything you have shared about your sitch over the months has lead me to believe that your W needs to be set free. She needs to find herself and you need some space yourself to heal from this nightmare you and your family have endured. I know it is extremely painful to arrive at this decision point, but I think you knew it was coming, eventually.

And, setting her free will also force the issue to a head and either way, whatever the outcome, there will be light and peace and movement towards a better place.

Quote:
"Maybe I will re-evalute then, and see if I need to take legal steps, and that gives her a cuople of months where the Rick train has moved on."


I've suggested that if doable, you help your W get set up with different living arrangements outside of your home. She doesn't seem to be capable of keeping herself together much less the family. So, from my perspective she is better off working on herself, by herself and whatever professional help she needs. But you need to be the rock for the family at this time because she can't do it.

And by the way, what are you doing to keep yourself healthy? Stress is not good for anyone, it will eat you from the inside out. Please take care of yourself.

Hang in there, Rick. We're here for you man!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/04/12 06:56 PM
Originally Posted By: purgatory
All I can offer is a hug (((((((((((( Rick )))))))))))))

No one can fault you for coming to this conclusion, you've given so much energy, thoughts an prayers to your sitch over the past year.

It must feel like the ground is dropping out from under you, faith and prayer will keep you from falling.


You've always been a shining spirit on these boards, I hope that we can help you gain your sparkle back.


Thanks Purg. You're sweet.
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/04/12 07:12 PM
Hey buddy sorry to hear you are hurting.

Going through your post I see your W doing several 180's in a short span. Rick, she is incredibly confused and from my rather limited point of view, she still loves you and is not ready to leave. Perhaps she is acting out like this because she sees you hurting and waiting. She does not want to be the cause of you discontent. Again, you are at a point where you decide to "stand" or lovingly let her go and build a new life for you and the kiddo's.

For what its worth - my expertise is way limited! I have no children and my sitch is relatively cut and dry.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/04/12 07:20 PM
Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
Quote:
"I have replayed the many posts to me from the team over and over again, and one thing I keep hearing is that I should stand for my M, and then I wonder what does standing for it exactly mean? Does that mean I let this continue because she needs support and we all go down? Can't I, with good moral backing, let her go out into the world and find her path as a parent sometimes has to do for a troubled kid? Isn't me taking control of my life, protecting my kids, giving her the chance to grow albiet by letting her go, actually standing for what is right?"


I think the answer lies in the last question in your paragraph above. Standing for your M doesn't mean ignoring the elephant in the room. You need to deal with this differently than you have been. What you have been doing hasn't worked, so now it is time to do something different.

That makes really good sense. I've read this so often here...if something doesn't work try something different. Sometimes it takes someone to point out what's staring you in the face.

Quote:
I remember when the bomb first dropped, my first instinct was to take her at her word, that she didn't want a M or family and we would never have it again..... In the end I do think it would have been wiser to just take her at her word. Okay go, and we'll see what happens. That might have forced breakthroughs that didn't happen in this environment.


I agree with this ^^^. Sometimes people have to hit bottom or at least face their demons head on in order to find themselves, breakthrough to the other side. What is on the other side is unknown but there is another side. So you've tried one approach and it really hasn't worked out. Now it is time for plan B. Nothing wrong with that. And you may still ultimately get what you want out of this, albeit via a different path.

I think there was just no way for her to do this while here at home. She's trying to break through all this on her own, but then in a broken down state in the midst of everything that reminds her of her sitch. There was no space available even though we all tried to do it. She had her own room, no demands on her, safety, economic security. Like the Aboriginees do the young adult has to go walkabout to grow up. And she never did anything at all like that. She went from her MOm's to me at age 18. Her psychiatrist says she had an arrested developemnt at age 8 so in many ways she has to catch up to adulthood.

Quote:
I'm thinking I have to take this in steps. Let her go, regroup, repair the finances, the house. Get used to it all.


Rick, based upon everything you have shared about your sitch over the months has lead me to believe that your W needs to be set free. She needs to find herself and you need some space yourself to heal from this nightmare you and your family have endured. I know it is extremely painful to arrive at this decision point, but I think you knew it was coming, eventually.

I would think to myself over and over again...how can she not see the answers? How can she make these choices and tear down a M and family without attempting to repair it? I could walk it through my mind and I can see how it WOULD work. In the past year I have never really even once seen anything that gave me a sense of optimism. Occasionally she would bring out these statements that would show real awakening, but it would all kind of fade back into bad behavior. Detach is just a word. i would fall for this time after time.

And, setting her free will also force the issue to a head and either way, whatever the outcome, there will be light and peace and movement towards a better place.

I know that intellectually. I need to let time do its magic.

Quote:
"Maybe I will re-evalute then, and see if I need to take legal steps, and that gives her a cuople of months where the Rick train has moved on."


I've suggested that if doable, you help your W get set up with different living arrangements outside of your home. She doesn't seem to be capable of keeping herself together much less the family. So, from my perspective she is better off working on herself, by herself and whatever professional help she needs. But you need to be the rock for the family at this time because she can't do it.

That, I can do. The idea of the actual physical act of moving her out, splitting up precious family stuff. It feels like its going to be an autopsy without painkiller. I cant imagine how the boys will be able to do it even though they really have always believed it was the only sane choice.

And by the way, what are you doing to keep yourself healthy? Stress is not good for anyone, it will eat you from the inside out. Please take care of yourself.

I do yoga every day, and run, and my spiritual program. I do worry that there's some monster stress induced illness lurking inside. I feel stunned most of the time, and not very clearheaded. It's odd but in my real estate world I had an incredible year for the company, yet not once felt engaged. I was just acting on instinct and experience.

Hang in there, Rick. We're here for you man!


You're a great man 2Pac! Thank you.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/04/12 07:30 PM
Originally Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky
Hey buddy sorry to hear you are hurting.

Going through your post I see your W doing several 180's in a short span. Rick, she is incredibly confused and from my rather limited point of view, she still loves you and is not ready to leave. Perhaps she is acting out like this because she sees you hurting and waiting. She does not want to be the cause of you discontent. Again, you are at a point where you decide to "stand" or lovingly let her go and build a new life for you and the kiddo's.

She definitely wants to run to some place that gets her out from seeing this day to day nightmare. She said today that she has destroyed all of it and needs to get out, and believes that she has burnt her bridges and will be alone. I agree with that, she hasn't been able to make gains here at home. She can't even get to the point of rebuilding a M and family when she has serious self loathing issues and basically has been living a lie for decades. I think, I know she loves me and the kids. That's all made it harder for her by being here. I don't see any other realistic way to even get herself in order, never mind the rest of us while here.

For what its worth - my expertise is way limited! I have no children and my sitch is relatively cut and dry.


Thanks for responding, it helps!
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/04/12 07:32 PM
Rick is time to do something fun. You don't have decide anything today but will support you either way. So got out there and breath. Let things slide today and chillax.
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/04/12 07:41 PM
When was the last time you shot rats with a pellet gun?
Just sayin...way fun.
Posted By: RoRoinMD Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/04/12 07:50 PM
(((Rick))) - I think you are an incredibly strong for making this decision. I can't even imagine being that strong.

I will be praying for you, your family, and your sitch.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/04/12 07:54 PM
Originally Posted By: Rick1963
Rick is time to do something fun. You don't have decide anything today but will support you either way. So got out there and breath. Let things slide today and chillax.


Going to the movies today, RickG. I have decided though. Need a new approach or we're all in big trouble. Thanks man.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/04/12 07:56 PM
Originally Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky
When was the last time you shot rats with a pellet gun?
Just sayin...way fun.


And ask them before I pull the trigger....Do you feel lucky punk? Well do you?

Planning a new career....professional WAS hunter and detective.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/04/12 07:58 PM
Originally Posted By: RoRoinMD
(((Rick))) - I think you are an incredibly strong for making this decision. I can't even imagine being that strong.

I will be praying for you, your family, and your sitch.


Thanks Roro. If this is strength...my insides are shakin and quakin. There's also a lot of fear driving this...if I don;t do something then what.....Thanks for the prayers!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/04/12 08:48 PM
(((((( rick ))))))

if there is any positive in this.. it's that she initiated the talk.. and she is voicing what she thinks she needs. which seems like more than she has done in a while.

it takes a lot of courage to continue on this journey. i imagine it's scary. however.. we still don't know the outcome of this story.

by letting her go.. i don't think that means you are giving up on your M or your family. it's a very loving gesture to give her the space she feels she needs. in this past year, you have done a lot of work on yourself and changed for the better. you were able to do this in the face of adversity while continuing to provide for your family and being a solid foundation for your kids. unfortunately.. your wife wasn't able to do this. it doesn't mean she's a bad person. she's simply reacting differently (diversity is one of the beauties in human nature).

maybe being on her own will help.. maybe not. but it's not your decision to make. you have been accountable for your choices and actions, it's now her opportunity to be accountable for hers.

we seem to be in parallel relationships. i see a lot of my H in your W. i think the big dynamic that really differs though is that my kids are very little and so they are much needier and H can feel that. your kids are older.. and independent. your W may feel they just don't need her like they use to (which is obviously not true given S13's reactions).

it really suxx. but we're here with you.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/04/12 09:31 PM
Originally Posted By: barely floating
(((((( rick ))))))

if there is any positive in this.. it's that she initiated the talk.. and she is voicing what she thinks she needs. which seems like more than she has done in a while.

It's almost always her that initiates the talks. It's like a boiler that needs to blow off steam every now and then. She just called me a few minutes ago from work. She was at a loss for words and I knew she was trying to get something out. I asked if I could take a stab at what she was trying to say. I said "you are at a complete loss for answers for yourself and then our M and family, and when we discuss things, the pressure makes you say things you don't necessarily mean or feel". She said yes, that's exactly it. Then she said my mind, heart and passion intimidate the hell out of her bacuse she feels so unstable in her entire being. Once she found a voice she said her life has been like she's a seed in an acorn, that's just beginning to sprout, and then I have this super strong confidence that to her is like a hurricane wind. I know she feels that way and that's why I have backed off for a year, and let her initiate these conversations. She's got to make it on her own. I still can't see how she can do that here without all the collateral damage.

it takes a lot of courage to continue on this journey. i imagine it's scary. however.. we still don't know the outcome of this story.

I agree with you that it's scary and yeah, the outcome isn't written yet. Sometimes it pays to bend with the wind, but other times you have to make things happen despite the fear. That's what this is all about for me, really for her mostly.

by letting her go.. i don't think that means you are giving up on your M or your family. it's a very loving gesture to give her the space she feels she needs. in this past year, you have done a lot of work on yourself and changed for the better. you were able to do this in the face of adversity while continuing to provide for your family and being a solid foundation for your kids. unfortunately.. your wife wasn't able to do this. it doesn't mean she's a bad person. she's simply reacting differently (diversity is one of the beauties in human nature).

I would never say she is a bad person. I love her soul to the core. She is very troubled and lost. Without it being the intention of either of us she latched onto me in a father figure type way. I was the first stability she ever had, and then she had the distraction of having the 3 boys and a home, which she focused on and really excluded all else. She did this without me really knowing the extent of it because unlike me, she can give off a very convincing facade while very troubled underneath. We all saw the demons in various forms through the years, kids included. These demons were lurking in her since her toddler years where she was horribly molested again and again, and lost her foundation when her dad died. That's why she was diagnosed with the arrested development at age 8. And she lived a truly disastrous life until she and I hooked up. I always knew she had problems because I felt them firsthand, but never knew about this type of stuff, nor how it could explode in later years. Hell, she didn't either.

maybe being on her own will help.. maybe not. but it's not your decision to make. you have been accountable for your choices and actions, it's now her opportunity to be accountable for hers.

Yeah. I keep thinking maybe she will find answers, confidence, and a sense of self. Maybe she will even become happy, then maybe she can look back to us. Maybe never. And I can't say where I'll be by then. I know I'll alway be a Dad and a good one no matter where I am. And if I find love in a R on my level with someone else I can't say that I wouldn't always love her. I did share my soul with her after all. But I think people can move on to a better love R that's a match at the same level. I'd be bringing a history but not necessarily baggage as most define it as a negative. I realize I'm getting way ahead of myself on that topic but after a year I think I at least need to consider it.

we seem to be in parallel relationships. i see a lot of my H in your W. i think the big dynamic that really differs though is that my kids are very little and so they are much needier and H can feel that. your kids are older.. and independent. your W may feel they just don't need her like they use to (which is obviously not true given S13's reactions).

You're spot on on these comments. And yes while eerily parallel, the age differences of the kids is a huge difference. That may help you and I pray that issue comes up in your Retroville thing. But be careful. My Mom and Dad split when my brother and I were little (you know my Vietnam story). I still to this day can't believe they did it. It's one reason why I get so defensive for you, and the others on this board with wee ones.

it really suxx. but we're here with you.


Your gentle and wise wisdom is once again just what I needed. Your kids are sooo amazingly lucky to have you. I'm glad as can be that I know you despite the crappy way we got here
Posted By: nhmom Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/05/12 02:34 AM
(((rick)))

sorry about the emotionally draining couple of days. I admire you for your calm demeanor and willingness to listen to your W.

It sounds like she is in a deep depression. I'm not sure what kind of effect letting a person who is deeply depressed hit rock bottom could have. I feel like maybe she does need someone stable to hang onto as she's struggling with this. Would being on her own make her drown? Will she be able to make it? Would it push her further into depression?

You've done an amazing job being there for her for a year, and I can't imagine how drained you must feel.

It sounds like she wants to run away from all the problems. She feels guilty, and even though she hasn't shown much attention to your S's, she must feel guilt deep inside. Does she have any interaction with them? Does she initiate any interaction with them? Maybe her guilt in letting everyone down makes her think that she's not wanted there anymore.

You have a lot to think about and think of possible other approaches. Just remember that it is not your job to fix her. She needs to figure this out herself, but it sounds like she does need your guidance in some way.

I agree with BF that it is good that she's reaching out to you with her talks. She's struggling and she needs help. It's feels so horrible to watch a loved one suffer like that and not being able to do anything about it. You are doing the right things by taking care of yourself and your sons. Everything will be alright one way or another. You'll get through this. ((rick))
Posted By: workinghardguy Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/05/12 02:45 AM
I swear Rick we could do that show wife-swap and I don't know that we'd know there was a change!

Ride it as you see fit. You're in the driver's seat. If it's worth continued investment then invest. If not... well, your call.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/05/12 03:52 AM
NHAMPSTERMOM.....your message is very timely because as the day has moved and she reached out again later today i am needing to hear other opi ions. What you say makes a ton of sense. I need to give your thoughts a lot of consideration.

I am very concerned about the damage being done right now, and you're also right that despite her state of mind, the guilt is enormous for her. Her mind and soul are indeep turmoil,however her heart has always been pure. So, on top of her turmoil her heart is suffering.

Thanks Hon!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/05/12 03:57 AM
Thx for reaching out WHG. Maybe we can create a new reality show called WAW swap?
Posted By: ces67 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/05/12 04:23 AM
Hey Rick,

Been offline a lot this weekend and catching up now. You've got a lot of good feedback and since I'm no wise sage, I'll just let you know that your ability to stay calm and centered is so incredibly admirable and I appreciate the example.

NH is right. Its not up to you to fix her. You can certainly be there if she reaches out, but she's going to have to do that and maybe this was her way of starting(?)

I'm with WHG, my W has trauma from the past that I see similar "victim" and hopeless behavior from W. She once made the comment to me that "it just wasn't in the cards for her to be happy".

I'm pulling for you. Be a postive influence where you. Sounds like you've got some great boys to take care of.

Keep taking care of yourself. Its got to be the best way for you to take care of the others in your life.

(ok, virtual hugs from guys don't seem to work so I'll have to figure out some type of keystroke for a fist bump!)
Posted By: Mach1 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/05/12 12:47 PM
Originally Posted By: rickb89

Okay so I'm walking thru the kitchen and my W stops me and says that because I have my own life she should learn to handle her own finances. So I calmly work towards figuring out what she means. I tell her that I emailed her with a suggested way of doing this when she said last time that it was important to her, and that she never responded, so is that what you want to do or do you have something else you're thinking? She says we are leading separate lives so we should separate the finances. Note that this has been a big thing for her forever but she has never actually stepped up to do something about it. So I say do you want to do this now? She doesn't. She says this way of living suxx and it's killing her. I ask her what she wants or needs to do. She says (and I knew she would see my GAL and detachment this way) that since we lead totally separate lives she hates it here. So I say that she is giving me contradictory messages. She pushes me away completely and then is unhappy that I'm not with her like before. She says she is not actually doing anything. She's just completely unable to get a hold on what to do in anything and absolutely has nothing in the tank at all. That opens the door for a 3 hr Gilligan tour of our entire history and everything going on now.


It's funny huh?

Not funny like Ha Ha, funny as in odd....

Things are going well, you get sukked into a relationship talk..

Kind of felt like the bomb again huh ?

YOUR reaction was different this time, and this didn't send you on a kamikaze mission ( or at least in front of her this time)



Hmmmmm...

You are getting this for a reason. YOU have taken steps to move forward in your life. There is a guilt there that she isn't capable of doing the same. She can clearly see that you are getting your life in order, and she is having a hard time with that. There is part of her that can't watch that.

The confusion she is feeling is actually a good thing. Time is on your side here.

The good part of it is....that she felt SAFE coming to you. You didn't call her crazy (to her face at least), you listened and validated her. You provided a safe place for her to vent her frustration.

Rick.....she is only going to be able to feel what she feels. A person is only capable of giving outwardly, what they are feeling inwardly. What she has shown you is miniscule, compared to what is really going on in her head.

Being the LBS-DBer is one of the hardest things in the world to do. WE hold ourselves to a higher standard in almost everything we do now. We walk a tight rope of being "superior" to our spouses. WE have learned the hard lessons, the hard way. And we are better because of it. It doesn't make us the judge though.

That is what is expected from us. We are here, honing our relationship skills almost daily. The way we talk, the way we think, the way we act. All in part, to make us capable of making better choices in our lives.

Our spouses aren't here, and they are not doing that kind of work yet. They simply are not capable of that for now. There will come a time when they are, just for now ? Nope....

She sees that bro, and she knows that she can't do that. She sees your actions have changed, and how you respond differently. Part of that is her wanting to be able to do that, part of that is her feeling guilty that she can't do that.

All relationship talks aren't bad buddy.....it's the ones that the LBS initiates that get us into trouble.

The way YOU handled yourself...was exactly what she didn't expect. The way you handled yourself was EXACTLY the way you should be handling yourself....DIFFERENTLY

Take it easy on yourself, this is one of the first times you have really seen a glimpse inside of her mind, or at least with an understanding of what may be going through her mind.

Get up, dust off, and start a new day man......

You are standing for you...and if a new relationship with her starts down the road, then you will be ready for that. You will even invite that. For now, she has to find herself, before she has anything to give to you.
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/05/12 01:29 PM
Yey, Rick!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/05/12 06:32 PM
Originally Posted By: ces67
Hey Rick,

Been offline a lot this weekend and catching up now. You've got a lot of good feedback and since I'm no wise sage, I'll just let you know that your ability to stay calm and centered is so incredibly admirable and I appreciate the example.

NH is right. Its not up to you to fix her. You can certainly be there if she reaches out, but she's going to have to do that and maybe this was her way of starting(?)

I'm with WHG, my W has trauma from the past that I see similar "victim" and hopeless behavior from W. She once made the comment to me that "it just wasn't in the cards for her to be happy".

I'm pulling for you. Be a postive influence where you. Sounds like you've got some great boys to take care of.

Keep taking care of yourself. Its got to be the best way for you to take care of the others in your life.

(ok, virtual hugs from guys don't seem to work so I'll have to figure out some type of keystroke for a fist bump!)


Thanks Ces...you're The Man

@@ i tried to create a fist bump logo maybe f...b for fist bump?
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/06/12 07:24 PM
The lighter side of the DB universe struck in my home yesterday morning, and I unwittingly managed to upstage 2TP's underwear show for his wife.

I was in the bathroom after a shower and was home alone...or so I thought. My clothes were in my room and I figured it was safe to make the trek from point A to B, sans towel. It was a little cold so I threw on my S13's Godzilla t-shirt and exited the bathroom...and there was my W who had forgotten something and came home for it. I don't think she was expecting the all nude male review featuring the Godzilla shirt. She said "ooooh hi", and I said "hey" and just kept going.

On a more normal note, I seemed to have had much the same weekend as a number of you guys did and I asked for and received a lot of great feedback on the board.

I'm coming to terms with the fact that my W is truly on a journey of epic proportions and that she has to go it alone in order for any answers she gets to be totally owned by her. I have to trust that the same universal processes that are guiding me are guiding her. I have to trust and respect that she has a survival mechanism built in just like I do and trust that she will figure it out.

I have to truly get that I am on my own journey too and that I cannot always see the reasons behind what is happening or why, but need to have faith and do my part by accepting fear and moving forward step by step, and by the way be joyful about it, and create that as much as I can for my fellow human beings.

As far back as I can remember, as young as 2 or 3 I remember having even then a calling to find the real truth behind things, to see beyond the structures we as people have created on the surface, but hide the truth behind it. When I was in my teens I decided to ask a creator to give it to me straight on, the experiences I needed to grow and to see the truth, to be a warrior for the world and change it for the better. And my prayers were answered. Those sitches came and I rose to the occasions. But like they say be careful of what you ask for. I had no way of knowing then at that age that this sort of test would be waiting down the road (even though my parents had split). So when this test came I was so on the ropes but managed to rally, and now even welcome it in a way. Just saying....this sitch that her and I are both in, is as much for me as it is for her. Will I have the strength enough to accept this, love her enough to let her go, love another enough to keep the home going without a shred of gauranty of a new type M with her? I taking it head on and do feel a sense of peace that has been missing for a long, long time.

And how is my W? The sense of truly letting go is such a relief for me and makes it easier for her I think (even if it's really only her picking up on my more peaceful state). As I get better at letting her go I am not interpreting everyhting she does thru my filter, my expectations and hopes. So, its much easier for me to see clearly what state she is in, as opposed to defining everything she does thru me.

Last night she needed me to drive her company bus (for patients) back from Boston because she is scared to death to drive it at night, through the ghetto, throuth the tight city streets. So we drive in together and then I get out and drive the bus back. The entire way in to the city she is non-stop telling me stories, thoughts, feelings, just about everything about her lately. It's just coming out, total free association, each new thing unrelated to the last. Not once doe she ask me about anything in my life. I'm just this sounding board for her. And because I have really let her go, it was not threatening in any way. I can be outside of her, know that all of this from her is just her in the process of rewiring her entire life.

This morning she came around to show me a book she had. I think it's called A New Awakening. What it is is a book that has a life lesson for each day of the year...a short 1 page story. Says she wants both of us to read each day's story and then compare notes. I was suprised by this.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/06/12 07:39 PM
The lighter side of the DB universe struck in my home yesterday morning, and I unwittingly managed to upstage 2TP's underwear show for his wife.

I was in the bathroom after a shower and was home alone...or so I thought. My clothes were in my room and I figured it was safe to make the trek from point A to B, sans towel. It was a little cold so I threw on my S13's Godzilla t-shirt and exited the bathroom...and there was my W who had forgotten something and came home for it. I don't think she was expecting the all nude male review featuring the Godzilla shirt. She said "ooooh hi", and I said "hey" and just kept going.

On a more normal note, I seemed to have had much the same weekend as a number of you guys did and I asked for and received a lot of great feedback on the board.

I'm coming to terms with the fact that my W is truly on a journey of epic proportions and that she has to go it alone in order for any answers she gets to be totally owned by her. I have to trust that the same universal processes that are guiding me are guiding her. I have to trust and respect that she has a survival mechanism built in just like I do and trust that she will figure it out.

I have to truly get that I am on my own journey too and that I cannot always see the reasons behind what is happening or why, but need to have faith and do my part by accepting fear and moving forward step by step, and by the way be joyful about it, and create that as much as I can for my fellow human beings.

As far back as I can remember, as young as 2 or 3 I remember having even then a calling to find the real truth behind things, to see beyond the structures we as people have created on the surface, but hide the truth behind it. When I was in my teens I decided to ask a creator to give it to me straight on, the experiences I needed to grow and to see the truth, to be a warrior for the world and change it for the better. And my prayers were answered. Those sitches came and I rose to the occasions. But like they say be careful of what you ask for. I had no way of knowing then at that age that this sort of test would be waiting down the road (even though my parents had split). So when this test came I was so on the ropes but managed to rally, and now even welcome it in a way. Just saying....this sitch that her and I are both in, is as much for me as it is for her. Will I have the strength enough to accept this, love her enough to let her go, love another enough to keep the home going without a shred of gauranty of a new type M with her? I taking it head on and do feel a sense of peace that has been missing for a long, long time.

And how is my W? The sense of truly letting go is such a relief for me and makes it easier for her I think (even if it's really only her picking up on my more peaceful state). As I get better at letting her go I am not interpreting everyhting she does thru my filter, my expectations and hopes. So, its much easier for me to see clearly what state she is in, as opposed to defining everything she does thru me.

Last night she needed me to drive her company bus (for patients) back from Boston because she is scared to death to drive it at night, through the ghetto, throuth the tight city streets. So we drive in together and then I get out and drive the bus back. The entire way in to the city she is non-stop telling me stories, thoughts, feelings, just about everything about her lately. It's just coming out, total free association, each new thing unrelated to the last. Not once doe she ask me about anything in my life. I'm just this sounding board for her. And because I have really let her go, it was not threatening in any way. I can be outside of her, know that all of this from her is just her in the process of rewiring her entire life.

This morning she came around to show me a book she had. I think it's called A New Awakening. What it is is a book that has a life lesson for each day of the year...a short 1 page story. Says she wants both of us to read each day's story and then compare notes. I was suprised by this.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/06/12 07:39 PM
Oops so sorry!
Posted By: nhmom Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/06/12 08:02 PM
Rick -

I'm seeing so many good things in your post.

You are approaching true detachment. It must make you feel relieved in some ways to "let her go" to discover her path.

Your W is reaching out to you on many levels. She still relies on you to be there for her to do certain things, like driving the bus through city streets.

The ride to the city wasn't full of awkward silence and tension. Your W opened up to you about things that were on her mind. Yes, they were not about your R or the kids or the future. It was things that were on her mind. It sounds like your W withdraws from everything and everyone and spends a lot of time alone. Does she have a close friend or family member whom she talks to about anything? You did amazing by being there for her and listening. That's what she needs right now, just someone to listen to her.

Very interesting about the book about life lessons, and the fact that she wants both of you to read it and compare notes. Very, very interesting.

I think one thing that your wife may be struggling with is that she sees you "moving on", doing things for yourself and being happy. She may feel like you're moving on without her. She's still stuck and is trying to figure out which way to go. As you continue to detach, don't go too far from her. Don't reach out to her in ways of pursuing, but do check up on her every now and then and let her know that you're there. You can do so by doing what you've been doing, listen to her when she's opening up. Don't offer advice unless she asks. I don't think she wants you to move on without her, but she can't seem to figure out how to go with you yet. She's making progress, even if it seems minuscule right now.
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/06/12 08:18 PM
wow! i second everything NH said. i see so many positives.. even the peep show!

your wife sounds like she is trying to figure things out. and it is so great because it's on her own time. so much better than being part of the walking dead don't you think (which btw is awesome.. i'm almost caught up)? she has to be ok with herself before she's ok as a we.

i think it's so great that she's reached out to you regarding the book. i think if she didn't care about connecting w/ you.. she wouldn't bother asking you to read it. if my H would consider reading one self book i would be over the moon! so much better to doing something.. anything!

as your wife tries to rebuild herself, i pray that her journey leads back to you and your family because you are an AMAZING man. you have managed to walk this path w/ grace, empathy and an extraordinary amount of patience. well done eggie!

in the meantime, what are you going to continue doing for yourself?
Posted By: purgatory Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/06/12 08:23 PM
Well, as usual, nhmom beat me to it smile

I too see a bunch of positives in your story. She asked *YOU* to drive with her, she knew that meant spendIng time alone with you... And she seemed comfortable with that.

Im sure 'Godzilla' was a surprise as well, but she didn't run away.

Your squirrel is coming closer and closer, you just have to continue to be patient but at the same time GAL on your own path... Still haven't figured out how to stand still and move forward at the same time.
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/06/12 08:31 PM
Godzilla indeed!
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/06/12 08:45 PM
lol!!! i didn't even catch that one!

was going to say something about squirrels.. nuts..

oh! just forget it..
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/06/12 08:48 PM
Rick, I do think it sounds like your wife is clearing things out.

Have you ever had a joint session with her psychologist? Sorry if this has been mentioned before.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/06/12 09:37 PM
Originally Posted By: nhmom
Rick -

I'm seeing so many good things in your post.

You are approaching true detachment. It must make you feel relieved in some ways to "let her go" to discover her path.

It really does feel good, it's been a year since I felt any peace and real happiness in myself, although with you guys I feel so good, and my yoga friends too.

Your W is reaching out to you on many levels. She still relies on you to be there for her to do certain things, like driving the bus through city streets.

It's a mixed up bag for her...her wanting to learn to be independent....her need for me just because for certain things that no matter what require teamwork...that's gonna take her time to figure out on top of the host of other psyche issues she has

The ride to the city wasn't full of awkward silence and tension. Your W opened up to you about things that were on her mind. Yes, they were not about your R or the kids or the future. It was things that were on her mind. It sounds like your W withdraws from everything and everyone and spends a lot of time alone. Does she have a close friend or family member whom she talks to about anything? Unfortunately she withdrew from her entire world(except for the OM d-bag cousin soon to be dead - no anger there huh?) You did amazing by being there for her and listening. That's what she needs right now, just someone to listen to her.

Very interesting about the book about life lessons, and the fact that she wants both of you to read it and compare notes. Very, very interesting.

Yeah...we used to swap books all the time. Even read the same books at same time....I would read a page, tear it out and she would read it while I read ahead. Nothing like that happening in a long time. Still feeling very detached teven with these things going on.

I think one thing that your wife may be struggling with is that she sees you "moving on", doing things for yourself and being happy. She may feel like you're moving on without her. She's still stuck and is trying to figure out which way to go. As you continue to detach, don't go too far from her. Don't reach out to her in ways of pursuing, but do check up on her every now and then and let her know that you're there. You can do so by doing what you've been doing, listen to her when she's opening up. Don't offer advice unless she asks. I don't think she wants you to move on without her, but she can't seem to figure out how to go with you yet. She's making progress, even if it seems minuscule right now.


That's good advice! Thanks NHampster
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/06/12 09:52 PM
Originally Posted By: barely floating
wow! i second everything NH said. i see so many positives.. even the peep show!

your wife sounds like she is trying to figure things out. and it is so great because it's on her own time. so much better than being part of the walking dead don't you think (which btw is awesome.. i'm almost caught up)? Nice...then you haven't seen all the suprises yet. she has to be ok with herself before she's ok as a we.

I agree banana. There may never be a "we". For now, I'll support her journey without getting in her way, and walk mine for now. We'll see. Hoping same for you

i think it's so great that she's reached out to you regarding the book. i think if she didn't care about connecting w/ you.. she wouldn't bother asking you to read it. if my H would consider reading one self book i would be over the moon! so much better to doing something.. anything!

I hear you....she professed to hate all self help books...and esp MC's early in the bomb days. I remember leaving her The Five Love Languages. Her reaction was as if I gave her a book filled with baby porn! Maybe your H is just not at that point yet? You still have Rutro-ville to go....maybe then? Hope so B.

as your wife tries to rebuild herself, i pray that her journey leads back to you and your family because you are an AMAZING man. you have managed to walk this path w/ grace, empathy and an extraordinary amount of patience. well done eggie!

Thanks banana bread. I never could see this happening...so I guess the fact that I can't imagine a R doesn't mean it won't happen, huh?

in the meantime, what are you going to continue doing for yourself?


Yoga, reading, friends, sons & gf's, book deal I'm in (need to pick up my part of it again - will tell you about it later), guitar, self evaluation, laugh with you and others, tons of movies, spiritual quest, my involvement in Venus project and Zeitgeist movement (more on that later),all things zombie, home projects (remodeling bathroom right now). How's that for starters?

What about you for yourself besides planting large male socks in your bed, and zombies?
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/06/12 10:02 PM
Originally Posted By: purgatory
Well, as usual, nhmom beat me to it smile

I too see a bunch of positives in your story. She asked *YOU* to drive with her, she knew that meant spendIng time alone with you... And she seemed comfortable with that.

Im sure 'Godzilla' was a surprise as well, but she didn't run away.

Some day I hope that can become a humorous family heirloom story. Although I don't think my S13 will like knowing how his Godzilla t-shirt played into the story!

Your squirrel is coming closer and closer, you just have to continue to be patient but at the same time GAL on your own path... Still haven't figured out how to stand still and move forward at the same time.


As shitty or hard as it is, we have to let go and then consciously decide to walk on alone. Not easy by any means. I wonder where I would have been if this board wasn't available. Whenever I needed a book to help me I used to stop myself in the store, meditate a bit and ask the universe to find me the book. It almost alwsys works that the first book I find id the one I need. I walked to this big a$$ bookshelve and reached for one book. It was MWD DB. I know you and these other great friends because of that one moment - changed my life.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/06/12 10:03 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
Godzilla indeed!


Yep, tears down Tokyo, but gives her a thrill at the same time. What a multi-talented guy.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/06/12 10:04 PM
Originally Posted By: barely floating
lol!!! i didn't even catch that one!

was going to say something about squirrels.. nuts..

oh! just forget it..


No...out with it!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/06/12 10:10 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
Rick, I do think it sounds like your wife is clearing things out.

Have you ever had a joint session with her psychologist? Sorry if this has been mentioned before.


No I wish. She's no way ready to do that, however she is very open with me about what he thinks and his preliminary diagnoses. She's very determined to rebuild her life on her own terms (which I greatly admire) and that may be one of the last barriers she would let down, if we ever get to that point. The dx's I hear about do seem to be spot on given her childhood traumas and resulting habits. BTW, she has decided to stop her anti-anx meds. I think this is her way of taking more control of her life. Hope it works. She has been constantly ill, and I think it's more just the affects of the constant stress.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/07/12 03:59 PM
Quote:
She's very determined to rebuild her life on her own terms (which I greatly admire) and that may be one of the last barriers she would let down, if we ever get to that point.


I like the fact that she is determined to get this right and corrected. Just hope for your sake that she doesn't end up taking forever to get to her final destination.


Quote:
BTW, she has decided to stop her anti-anx meds. I think this is her way of taking more control of her life. Hope it works. She has been constantly ill, and I think it's more just the affects of the constant stress.


Stress is a killer! But, I would be concerned about the patient making the decision to stop taking the meds. There are adverse side effects for quitting cold turkey. Is she doing this under the guidance of her Dr.?

I wish my W would stop her meds as well. She has been on them for so long, it just seems like the ailment should have run its course. I think that sometimes a more natural approach to treating whatever the meds are supposed to treat can be just as beneficial and less toxic with fewer side effects.
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/07/12 04:16 PM
Dangerous territory, guys.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/07/12 10:36 PM
I like the fact that she is determined to get this right and corrected. Just hope for your sake that she doesn't end up taking forever to get to her final destination.

Whatever is right for her will play out in whatever fashion and whenever. I'm living my life beside her but not in her way, just here whenever she reaches out.

Stress is a killer! But, I would be concerned about the patient making the decision to stop taking the meds. There are adverse side effects for quitting cold turkey. Is she doing this under the guidance of her Dr.?

No, she is making choices on her own about the meds, and as you know intimately its' hard to stand by and wonder what might happen. I'm researching it now to see what I can get off the internet. In fact I am seeing her all over the place emotionally and physically. I'm not sure if this would be occuring with or without the meds. Very scary times here, and a very varied array of emotions. You remember she went through a period of threatening suicide so I am not taking this lightly. I'm talking to a bunch of friends in the health profession behind the scenes, and sleeping with one eye open.

I wish my W would stop her meds as well. She has been on them for so long, it just seems like the ailment should have run its course. I think that sometimes a more natural approach to treating whatever the meds are supposed to treat can be just as beneficial and less toxic with fewer side effects.

She feels that way too, so this decision by her is actually an attempt to regain all kinds of health. Where its related to a psychological issue its tough. She is seeking to find a way to do this naturally and she has an appt with the psychiatrist Friday. I am less worried nowadays about suicide, but I am worried about an accident because she is exhausted, or freaked out, or depressed. You know while driving, or if she goes out with coworkers and gets jacked up. I remember one time she was driving down my street and in a mental fog. I could see her coming and I was jogging. She almost hit me and kept going, never saw me, and that was in her convertible. Like your sitch it's tough letting them make their way when its like this. I'm nervous.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/07/12 10:37 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
Dangerous territory, guys.


Your in the health profession right? What do you think?
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/07/12 11:57 PM
I have heard so many stories and read sitches on here that start out: "Well, I went off my meds and didn't tell anybody"

Why?

I see not wanting to take medications for the rest of your life, diabetics don't want to, people with hi cholesterol don't want to, people with hypertension don't want to. Those are choices everyone gets to make. But there is usually a consequence and we call those people future inpatients.

I think medication management with a person trained in medication management is essential. If someone wants to come off meds or try a different one, great, but do it under the guidance of someone who does this regularly so as not to end up in a hole deeper than the one you're trying to get out of.
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/08/12 12:10 AM
i have to echo labug..

unless you are well versed in these classes of meds.. it's best to leave it to someone who is.

a common problem is that people tend to adjust their meds and dosage thinking they feel better or want to be more in control only to realize it does the opposite.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/08/12 04:06 AM
I am pretty concerned. I asked her to talk to the psychiatrist about it Friday at her appt. Weirder than usual lately. S13 is noticing it big time. I am actually wondering if she will live thru this...i mean this whole breakdown.
Posted By: ces67 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/08/12 01:31 PM
Hey Rick, Sorry to hear this. Has to be scary for you & the boys to watch. Is there anyone your W would listen to more willingly about this? I know we're not suppose to bring others into the sitch unneccesarily but if you're really concerned maybe there is someone else she'd be willing to listen to.

Hopefully she'll take your advice and talk to her doc on Friday. Good to hear she's got an appointment already.

Hang in there! =@@= (this is the simple I came up with for a fist bump)
Posted By: nhmom Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/08/12 02:54 PM
((Rick))

How are you doing, Rick? I can't even imagine how tough it must be for you right now. Your W is sure going through some serious stuff!

Thinking of you!

CES - nice fist bump!
Posted By: ces67 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/08/12 02:58 PM
oops, meant "symbol" not simple. (can't blame an i-phone so - stupid fingers...)
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/09/12 04:53 AM
Ces & Nhampsterrussian

Thanks guys! Impressive fist bump CES.

W, will only listen to me in her sitch but on her own internal clock, so I can help occasionally. Has pretty much removed herself from all family and close friends. Very tough times here....handling this is like defusing nukes....a lot at stake...and i refuse not to work and focus on me too....and refuse to not find happiness in the moments in life. Her psyche appt is tomorrow.
Posted By: ces67 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/09/12 12:35 PM
Hope the session has a positive impact for your W today.

Very wise to take care of yourself! Can't take care of anyone else if your own tank is empty.

They just opened a fitness center at work and have a "yoga for beginners" class. May have to try it just from all your comments about it!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/09/12 03:52 PM
Originally Posted By: ces67
Hope the session has a positive impact for your W today.

Very wise to take care of yourself! Can't take care of anyone else if your own tank is empty.

They just opened a fitness center at work and have a "yoga for beginners" class. May have to try it just from all your comments about it!


Thanks CES....big day today for W...not looking good to start the day...she's just above water I think.

Yoga...I'm so glad you will try it. It will work your entire body down to the cellular level, and works for your mind and soul. Certainly helps the DB effort!

Have a good day my friend.
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/09/12 03:56 PM
Hey Rick, this was in my reading today:

It's good to care about other people and their feelings; it's essential to care about ourselves too. Sometimes to take good care of ourselves we must make a choice.

Good luck, my friend.
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/09/12 05:02 PM
I really hope W has a prodcutive talk and the day ends better than it started for you.

Not gonna give ya a hug...need a few beers first.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/09/12 05:21 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
Hey Rick, this was in my reading today:

It's good to care about other people and their feelings; it's essential to care about ourselves too. Sometimes to take good care of ourselves we must make a choice.

Good luck, my friend.


Yeah choice, tough one this choice is says yoda
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/09/12 06:02 PM
Originally Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky
I really hope W has a productive talk and the day ends better than it started for you.

Not gonna give ya a hug...need a few beers first.


Not even a bro hug? Yeah, maybe that requires beer goggles too

Chipmonkey...she was so just barely able to function this morning. She has literally nothing in her tank and after a year of this sitch, and her whole life leading up to it, I can't tell if she's hitting bottom and could come back up, or just taking that final bow on the way down, down, down. I will give us this, that she does tell me what is going on with her, how she is feeling, her confusion, fear, frustration, all of it. The issue of the meds is huge, and trying to get a handle on this today.

She can still manage to surface now and again and be happy, if it is something that is totally non-threatening for her (and that means not us). Like I am remodeling a master bath in our house. I get up at 4 and do a couple hours of work, then my bud who is laid off, works on it during the day. That way we are getting through it faster and I pay this guy under the table. I let her choose everything for amenities and color, etc. That makes her happy - being creative, and spending money!

This is why I am struggling with this all - her sitch, my own life and taking it back, our M, my empty love tank. I don't know if I'm a DB success story in that I feel great about my own life and kids, and then totally emotionally detached from her? I love all the way when I love so its not like I'm some heartless nazi about this. I just feel totally detached and outside of what used to be an "us". I do know that I am so protective of her...if she feels and ounce of pain it guts me, and I still feel that, however I feel no life connection to her at all other than we're dealing with this thing going on. Maybe self preservation, don't know. I'm being honest about this. I've been with her 25 years and never could have imagined feeling this way. And you know Ray, could I be ready to move on and love another. I have to say I yeah, I can feel the things I've learned in this and in life and am thinking how ready I am to share it all again, yet I'm open to her still. If you think I am selling her short tell me. I will tell you I loved her with all of me and held nothing back.
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/09/12 09:28 PM
This is why I am struggling with this all - her sitch, my own life and taking it back, our M, my empty love tank. I don't know if I'm a DB success story in that I feel great about my own life and kids, and then totally emotionally detached from her?

I think dudes are fairly simple critters. I have my friends, my hobbies, my career, and my sister. Together these are all part of a mostly fulfilling life at the moment. There is, however, one very important thing missing. My wife right? No. Don't get me wrong, afterall my posts are riddled with my love for her. As harsh as this sounds - the only thing I am missing From my “dude’s” life is the emotional and physical connection that only a woman can provide. I really want that to be my wife, but I absolutely refuse let my life be less fulfilling because she is not here. There will come a day (soon for me), that I move on and allow somebody to get close again.
Maybe self preservation, don't know. I'm being honest about this. I've been with her 25 years and never could have imagined feeling this way. And you know Ray, could I be ready to move on and love another. I have to say I yeah, I can feel the things I've learned in this and in life and am thinking how ready I am to share it all again, yet I'm open to her still. If you think I am selling her short tell me. I will tell you I loved her with all of me and held nothing back.

Rick, this is largely rhetorical. Only you know when it’s time to move on. I am such a novice at this business. Having said that, I would not blame you for moving on. Sisyphus has nothing on you…
BTW - how cool would it be if she came out of it? Would you be happy?
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/09/12 09:32 PM
Grmpy, your wife is crazier than a barn owl!
Posted By: Mach1 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/09/12 09:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky
This is why I am struggling with this all - her sitch, my own life and taking it back, our M, my empty love tank. I don't know if I'm a DB success story in that I feel great about my own life and kids, and then totally emotionally detached from her?

I think dudes are fairly simple critters. I have my friends, my hobbies, my career, and my sister. Together these are all part of a mostly fulfilling life at the moment. There is, however, one very important thing missing. My wife right? No. Don't get me wrong, afterall my posts are riddled with my love for her. As harsh as this sounds - the only thing I am missing From my “dude’s” life is the emotional and physical connection that only a woman can provide. I really want that to be my wife, but I absolutely refuse let my life be less fulfilling because she is not here. There will come a day (soon for me), that I move on and allow somebody to get close again.
Maybe self preservation, don't know. I'm being honest about this. I've been with her 25 years and never could have imagined feeling this way. And you know Ray, could I be ready to move on and love another. I have to say I yeah, I can feel the things I've learned in this and in life and am thinking how ready I am to share it all again, yet I'm open to her still. If you think I am selling her short tell me. I will tell you I loved her with all of me and held nothing back.

Rick, this is largely rhetorical. Only you know when it’s time to move on. I am such a novice at this business. Having said that, I would not blame you for moving on. Sisyphus has nothing on you…
BTW - how cool would it be if she came out of it? Would you be happy?




And he thinks he aint got nothin......^^^^^^
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/09/12 09:37 PM
I know, he's been sandbaggin' us all this time. Did you see his post to PCT?
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/09/12 10:52 PM
Rick, this is largely rhetorical. Only you know when it’s time to move on. I am such a novice at this business. Having said that, I would not blame you for moving on. Sisyphus has nothing on you…
BTW - how cool would it be if she came out of it? Would you be happy?

Ray - I can't imagine her coming out of it. That doesn't mean it can't happen because she's in charge of whatever/wherever she ends up. Trying to trust the process for her and her path, and handle the damage as it occurs.

I would have said at one time, I would be insanely happy. Now, I know more about myself - what I don't want and what I do want to be and experience. And I'm not sure of her anymore, not just the psyche issues which are ongoing, but what about life choices made and my thought on their morality? I'm still goose stepping to CA, and getting shot at while I'm doing it.

Time will tell. I'm asking all the questions for me, why not, even if they are thinking outloud on this board.
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/09/12 11:43 PM
Geesh, your questions are sure helping me..lol.
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/09/12 11:49 PM
BUg - you are too sweet -thanks! I prefer crazier than a shyt house rat.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/10/12 01:56 PM
I knew it...Ray is one of the Shaolin monks (monkey..see the connection was there hiding in plain sight) with Mach in the ancient shaolin temple with modern IT equipment dispensing wisdom to the decadent westerners.

Ray, of the venerable laughing monkey technigue
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/10/12 02:19 PM
Where to start...will probaly post some later because have to run to yoga

W is having a pretty interesting reaction to her Mom leaving. How can she do that? Its her issue but what about me...I'm her daughter, what about our R? I feel so judged and a failure....she's moving to my sisters and it makes me look so bad. Hmmmm...the other side of the coin suxx now doesn't it?

Everything was pouring out from her this morning. I will probably post things at different times as I relive it thru the day.

She's asking why her entire life has fallen apart when all she is trying to do is finally take control of her life, get beyond her demons, and live authentically. I shared with her that she has never really developed the tools that are needed for that type of live. In her case she lives through the heart and it's all pure, however she has no governing control over her emotions. What erupts in one area, spills into every area of her life and blows each area up together...hence M blows up, R with kids blows up, all of it. I told her that some can compartmentalize a little better sometimes - life identity crisis here and that's tough, but M check, kids check, favorite movies check. One area doesn't blow all the others up even if they do affect them. But seeing how she's currently working at an emotional level of age eight (not a joke here, that's the diagnosis from the trauma) she has never developed a lot of adult tools. I'm not ragging on her for it either....she just never took these stages on until now and all at once. And for me and her, there's a fine line I walk with her. She needs to get this stuff on her own and there's the knowledge that she really did love me more in a father figure way. I can't let her latch onto me that way through this, yet still need to provide my insight when asked.

Still for me, there's the question of the moral choices she's making...how much is just part of growing up for her. She thinks I don't know where she's going today and she told me she's going to do her camera work today (which is true) but is omitting the elephant in the room, OM. And, she is so far removed from my life. Today's Battle Royale in Chinatown today...she doesn't even know...not in a place where she can see beyond herself.

More later...peace and love to all
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/10/12 02:27 PM
Hang in there, buddy. Glad you are taking care of yourself.
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/10/12 02:58 PM
When I look at this from the outside I see an individual that was “forced” to make changes after his W dropped the bomb. You have grown tremendously and continue to do so every day Rick. Your W, not so much - at least not at your pace. Think about it, eight years vs. forty something? You still want your W all the while your ship sails farther and farther away to the “new world.”
Hope you can rage in China Town today – take no prisoners! mad
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/11/12 02:26 AM
Thanks Ray and Bugsy! Great day today although it was a year ago today the bomb dropped. I know it but really am totally detached from it.
Posted By: ces67 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/11/12 02:29 AM
Heard a successful salesman once say "Each 'no' is just one no closer to my next 'yes'".

Maybe we need to look at each day of our sitch as one day closer to the other side! We will all get through this stuff. We may not know what's on the other end except that we faced ourselves, learned new things and grew as a result.

I really do appreciate your posts & insights!
Posted By: ptcr Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/11/12 03:18 AM
A year...that is amazing. You are doing so well. I admire your patience and wisdom. YOU have grown through this and that is what is important. Take care of yourself...you are loved and valued on this board.
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/11/12 05:09 AM
How was the battle? Did you teach the young punk a thing or two? smile
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/11/12 04:09 PM
Originally Posted By: ces67
Heard a successful salesman once say "Each 'no' is just one no closer to my next 'yes'".

Maybe we need to look at each day of our sitch as one day closer to the other side! We will all get through this stuff. We may not know what's on the other end except that we faced ourselves, learned new things and grew as a result.

I really do appreciate your posts & insights!


CES - you're awesome, thanks. I kept hearing Mr. Mojo Risin in my head - break on through to the other side!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/11/12 04:10 PM
Originally Posted By: ptcrussell
A year...that is amazing. You are doing so well. I admire your patience and wisdom. YOU have grown through this and that is what is important. Take care of yourself...you are loved and valued on this board.


PTC - thanks, that is sweet and makes my day. I guess we can all get there, huh?

Peace and love
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/11/12 04:55 PM
Originally Posted By: barely floating
How was the battle? Did you teach the young punk a thing or two? smile



Ha ha...in fact I did teach him DB101 as applied to the martial arts world. and thinks for thinking of me.

Fortunatley the judges were guys I trained with for 25 years, since I was a kid. I knew this kid, Mangus, back when I trained people in the UK, and Kelli (a bff) was also a student of mine. I used to live at her family's apt when there and she lived in a real ghetto in Birmingahm. At night we would hang out on the roof, watch for ufo's, and practice. This kid lived on her floor and I trained him for a couple of weeks. That was all self defense mind you. Todays world of UFC is all about attack, and this guy has gone this route.

This guy had the hots for Kelli his whole life. Eventually she decided to take the non-traditonal path of the rock world, and I knew I was going to come back here, see where it went with Michelle and have a family. She had some of the material she wrote, and we used to ride around on The Tube in London and brainstorm lyrics. I came back here, and god love her, she joined Sneaker Pimps and became famous in the 90's. So we have stayed connected all along. I was her friend who she could bitch about the BS world of the big record labels, get honest advise from me, and find a place to connect with someone who had the same street background as her.

Then, amazingly on the same day as me, she got a bomb dropped on her too. So, I have been her DB coach all along. She told one of our friends unbeknownst to me that she wishes she had taken the chance and pursued marrying me when we were kids ( I was blindly unaware oh that back then but in hindsight I see the signs now). Mangus took all this in as if I was in the way of his plans for her (which I'm not!). He comes over to MIT and decides to issue the challenge through the network.

I was thinking how comical this all is, but at the same time I thinking I don't know much about this guy, having had limited contact over the years. I figure I'll go and check it out, see if maybe we can just spar a little, you know, light contact stuff and catch up. I also didn't tell anyone in my family I was doing this because I don't want my boys to get wrong ideas about this (and W doesn't deserve to know). They're all at a sensitve age about manhood, and I don't want them to think that their Dad is living this violent secret life, or think of this in the wrong way as some glamerous way of living.

I get there and we all talk, the judges, Mangus, me, catching up on everybody's lives. I haven't trained in five years since I went full-time yoga so I'm just watching him show boat and I'm thinking I'm not gonna show him anything, I'm not gonna even stretch out, just watch him and see what he's got planned for me. I get the sense that he's going to go for the big macho kill right off the bat. Sure enough he goes for the big head kick (which is off-limits by the way...these things are controlled and are supposed ot be friendly learning experiences). I thnk he expected a big same-same attack back, but he was so stupidly aggressive. So it was easy for me to drop to all fours and sweep his other leg out, while his kill shot was still over 6 feet in the air. He went done pretty hard and it was over.

To his credit he got the lesson and we had a good laugh about it, and then worked on the DB principles in the martial arts world. Like meeting rage with gentleness, like the best way to not get hurt is to not be there where the atack is going. Like they say, DB'ing applies in our whole lives!

And Mangus is free to pursue his dream girl.

Isn't it weird banana bread...on the anniversary of my bomb, Kelli's bomb, this happens...and while my W if "sneaking off" with the O-creep.

Life is so good but comically weird at times.

Thanks again for asking. I assume that means you care, or did you just have a bet going on it? Ha ha
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/11/12 05:28 PM
Latest DB update. 1 year anniversay of the bomb was uneventful as far as how I felt. I feel pretty damm good and I'm here to tell you that believe it or not you can get your life back, make yourself a better person, love again if it's there, let your WAS go peacefully, do your taxes, ride a bike, you name it.

The day to day of the sitch is still there, my internal debate over the OM as far as the concept of laying the wood on this guy is still active, my W still lives in our house, the kids are still incredibly hurt, there's a lot to unravel.

After yoga this morning I came home to do my PT to rehab my shoulder. She was nearby in the kitchen. Each and every time I would start the reps she would ask me a question. Each time I would stop and patiently answer her. Her questions and comments were all over the place, but I know the signs and just wait foe the real question to come out, which it did.

She asks me if I want a relationship with a girl named Melissa from yoga. I tell her no and go back to PT. She says well I see you guys talk on FB. I say, of course we're good friends. She seems to waiting for more so I tell her...she's with our nephew Silas (another yoga companion) and he's with her. I'm thinking that if she hadn't abandoned our entire family she would know this obvious fact. I guess a cheater never can get a moments rest from not trusting others. Good luck to her...jeesh.

In two months from now. all three of my sons will be living here, daughter and son's fiance. The elephant is still in the room though. Not sure what to do about her in terms of where she can get her life back on track. It's a pickle..the damage she is doing here isn't easy...yet I'm not heartless either and know she really needs help. Like 2TP's sitch, the OM doesn't step up for that, the hard work. That's whatwe do. You think she would have seen this before my tank went dry and then was removed. My S13 said "Dad, she threw away our entire family for a slimy D-bag."

Srarting Season One of Game of Thrones today! So psyched!

Thanks to each and every posting person here who has cared. You are all valient loving people.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/11/12 05:32 PM
you have come a long way Rick.

smile
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/11/12 06:07 PM
Thanks 25. The journey to getting my life back started the day I dared you to bust out 2" * 4"!

Hope you're well!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/11/12 06:18 PM
Quote:
I'm here to tell you that believe it or not you can get your life back, make yourself a better person, love again if it's there, let your WAS go peacefully,


That's why you are going to continue being so much help to newcomers. To let them know there is life after the bomb.
Posted By: purgatory Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/11/12 06:22 PM
==@@==rickb.

I have said it a few times, but I am still in awe of the work you have put into yourself and your kids. Your ability to deflect each 'punch' that she throws at you is something I want to learn to do.

A year later and you're still standing..... makes me think I can keep going a little longer smile
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/11/12 06:28 PM
You are the shyt bro!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/11/12 06:50 PM
Originally Posted By: purgatory
==@@==rickb.

I have said it a few times, but I am still in awe of the work you have put into yourself and your kids. Your ability to deflect each 'punch' that she throws at you is something I want to learn to do.

A year later and you're still standing..... makes me think I can keep going a little longer smile


Thanks girl. I have to bow to the DB'ers on this board who do this with litle kids! Now that's real stength!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/11/12 06:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky
You are the shyt bro!


You too monkster!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/12/12 02:34 PM
I'm starting to side with some of the hard liners about how you deal with the WAS, not in some agressive FU response, but just being honest about letting go.

How much of what we do for the WAS in their MLC, psyche crisis, debauchery crisis, alcohol and drug crisis, is really just another form of pursuit? Even if feels like it might be unconditional love, don't we in the end expect some kind of reward in the way we define it - a new M, open love w/ them, etc.

The WAS spouse seems to use all of that as jet fuel to stay in their new found world.

As excrutiatingly painful as it is, they really did say goodbye to all that you are, and if there's love still there, ther's no way you will ever help them uncover it. They might on their own , and you do have to work on your own issues and life, but you need to throw any timetable out the window. This sort of thing can happen to anyone for any reason - illness, death in the family, etc. Just like that your life has changed in a moment forever. We have to move on no matter the particulars of our sitch, and rationalizing their bad behavior and causes won't change a thing about them. We have an obligation to stand for our M's, but anyhting we stand for has to be with us being the best person we can be, and meeting our obligation to bring joy and happiness into the world. Like it or not this is part of our LOTR journey.

On the home front for me that means no more enabling, no more rationalizing, no more self sacrifice.

When the world was telling me my W was an a-hole and I should move on right away I told everyone to back off, that she was a woman in deep trouble and I will stand by her no matter how hard it is. That was the right thing to do in terms of givng this sitch the chance to show itself for what it was. Things change, time does its work, and clarity comes.

Its when you see the collateral damage that you start to realize that you have to push the WAS out of your life, and god bless them that they make it.

Its little things that are big things. Like seeing that my S13 will sleep with his earplugs in so that he doesn't have to hear his Mom on the phone with OM in the next room. It's knowing that your kids are seeing these immoralties and questioning the worthiness of a sacred bond such as M.

Yeah, my W reaches out all the time, and many would say that's good. In reality she is just reaching out for a safety net. Once she knows it's there and feels safe, it's right back to a self centered world of me, me, me. Despite the psyche issues, it's despicable in many ways. I rationalized a lot of bad behavior with her psyche crisis, and so does she.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/12/12 08:25 PM
Quote:
"Yeah, my W reaches out all the time, and many would say that's good. In reality she is just reaching out for a safety net. Once she knows it's there and feels safe, it's right back to a self centered world of me, me, me. Despite the psyche issues, it's despicable in many ways. I rationalized a lot of bad behavior with her psyche crisis, and so does she."


This seems to be the function of the LBS pulling back and detaching that triggers the WAS to reengage...just long enough. So to me the question seems to be, can you find the strength to pull back and detach much, much more?

I believe I have posted elsewhere that I believe our spouses need to hit rock bottom in terms of the emotional support and energy we provide them. They need to experience the reality that results from their decision to exit the M.

Only then will they maybe begin to recognize the damage left in their wake. Then again, maybe they won't. So what then does the LBS do?

That is the question I think we all must be able to answer in order to be able to move on.
Posted By: Truegritter Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 01:23 AM
Rick

For a long time I made excuses for W's choices based on her crisis. It didn't help either of us.

Especially me.

It is not against your vows or your love for your W to let her feel the consequences of her choices.

I don't mean retribution from you but the fact the you have removed yourself from a M where your W is continually making selfish choices against it.

Would you want her back if she is still choosing that?

What is best for her to learn differently?

You coddling her behavior or enabling it?

A tough step to take for the LBS but a very necessary one for you to heal.

And for her too.
Posted By: BklynMom Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 01:27 AM
Really beautiful post rick. Very loving in its own way.
Posted By: purgatory Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 01:36 AM
Loving and compassionate (as much as it can be given the sitch)

You're a great guy.
Posted By: bustorama Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 03:55 AM
It really is the most loving thing to respect your W's choices and not rescue her from them or enable them or excuse them, especially by trampling your own boundaries.

If she chooses that is who she wants to be and that is who she wants to be with (or without), then so she chooses. Let her be who she wants to be and with whom she wants.

Respect her by living accordingly.

You are not obligated to go along for the ride if is against who you are.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 06:17 AM
Rick

I have said this before but it's clear you really truly get it--the more we challenge the WAS's choices,

the more they'll defend them or rationalize them or just get mad at you for questioning them.

Hence backing off and really truly moving forward. Seeing the "positive side" of letting go also helps (ahem, your s13 wearing ear plugs...I bet NOT seeing that won't hurt you).

And there are other positives that of course are stronger, which I think you sense Rick.

Your choice is NOT between your wife, or being alone the rest of your life.

Even if it were, might you choose being single, over being married this way?

This is a reality they created, that you are facing and making the most of.

Even though I love to think my own detaching and GAL was the trigger for my h coming around,

maybe it was all about h realizing he was living alone and

waking up to that fact finally, on the tundra, and the reality that WE lived here, while HE lived there...

Whether it was change in HIM or ME, or both, isn't relevant that much b/c

Either way, MY path was the same. I had to let him go and make myself happy.

As you have discovered Rick, when we make ourselves happy, well, we make ourselves happy.

and Isn't that the point of Living well?

Waiting or hoping THEY change, or wake up, is just not a viable option!!

Making ourselves content, GAL like a maniac, moving forward, taking care of our kids and ourselves...isn't that what we are here on earth for anyhow?

When we put aside our anger & our pain for a minute, we may just see

that the silver lining of all this is realizing this was the way we were

supposed to be living & where our focus was supposed to be, all along.
Posted By: Truegritter Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 08:18 AM
Originally Posted By: 25
Whether it was change in HIM or ME, or both, isn't relevant that much b/c

Either way, MY path was the same. I had to let him go and make myself happy.


That is a beautiful pearl of wisdom...in two sentences.

It is ultimately the goal of everyone who comes here.

Whether you save your M or not.
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 08:30 AM
Eggs..

((((( )))))

this must be such a heartbreaking position to be in. I can only imagine the pain you must be feeling.

You have walked a tough road. And you have gained so much insight on the man and father you want to be. By clearly identifying your boundaries is another step closer in realizing what you do not want in your life or in a R.

I hesitate to say.. Ok.. Where do you go from here (when you say you are done) because you have just passed the one year mark and reading from other people's threads, it seems to be a moment where people feel it's a make it or break it moment.. But I get that you want to be done for your kids.

Maybe it's just time to shift from trying to create a supportive environment for your W (I mean, you have been with her forever so I get that commitment), to a supportive environment for your kids. Especially S13. Leave W to deal with her decisions (she's a big girl) while you focus on yours.

I don't know what the future holds for you.. But I truly feel that you deserve to receive the love you are so ready to give. One day at a time. Whether the road leads back to your S or someone new, you'll know when you get there. Take the scenic route.. There's no rush.
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 11:08 AM
Hey 89 sorry for what you are going through. I was wondering if she has access to your FB. I would make it private so she has nothing to use and make excuses with. Othe than that I'm in your corner. yes there is a life after this a great life.
Posted By: ces67 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 12:27 PM
=@@= Plenty of support in better words than I can offer. Just know I'm thinking & praying for you.
Posted By: nhmom Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 12:40 PM
((Rick)) Sorry you're in so much pain. Letting go of your W is the most loving thing you're doing for everyone. As much as it hurts right now, it sounds like you're making the right choice for yourself and your family. Some day down the road you'll be able to look back to this time and be happy with the decision you made.

Just know that you are not alone.

What's your plan?
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 02:53 PM
Thank you one and all for the love and support..truly you all are amazing people.

Last night I clearly expressed my beliefs in...essentially boiled down to me explaining my principles of love, M, commitment, rebuilding from pain, creating something new in place of something obsolete, love as a choice, that M's ebb and flow, that love is built,,,not dropped out of the sky like it seems when two people first get together.

Her opinion was quite the opposite...that if a R goes bad it's like an abscessed tooth that you rip out to save the rest of you, that you don't beat a dead horse, that she's been unhappy for a long time. I explained that I've been unhappy too for a long time. To me that meant we needed to find new tools to enhance our M, and that I'm not intimidated by the fact that there has been unhappiness. In the grand timeline of things, these moments were bound to happen along the line.

I said if we take just the first baby step in the direction of our M we can possible save all of this and that real M's are built softly, step by step, with a quiet gentle tenderness, and that the euphoria in all R's passes and should be replaced by these steps.

I said that she has quite some time to take even one step but instead has spent all her time on herself only and for herself only, which coupled with the lifestyle change has done a lot of damage..however I have stood by her her entire journey through this...and been rebuffed 100%.

So I said I see two paths for me...one is I walk with her step by step towards something great...or I am done with her ...

I know we have to communicate on kid matters and practical stuff. I told her she can text or email me for contact. She has made her choice..it's her life...I told her it's not something I respect morally and will not be in her life at all in that type of world

I'm f'in beat to shitt right now...no sleep at all...and I'm at work. Only my youngest knows this right now. I slept in his room last night to help both of us feel better. The other two don't know yet. None of them are surprised and had been suggesting I do this all along. I needed to give her my everything to see what could happen.

She should be moving and has said that she would, unless she goes back on her word (taht's a possibility). I need to try to maintain the home for six of us without her income, don't know if I can do it. I need to make it at least four years so Vinnie can go through HS in his home. It's very important to him.

Sometimes Michelle would make lunch for me. She asked me if I wanted her to today. I reiterated that we can share things if we are walking towards a new M, otherwise no I don't want anything. She called me on my cell also. I did not answer. I meant I'm done...she could have left a message or texted.

I knew this was coming for a long time but now that it's here I'm reeling. I vowed to the universe to give me everything it has and needs me to do in this sitch. I was willing to go forever for her. She chose such an immoral path (by my definition) that she became the abscessed tooth (to use her analogy).

I'm not sure of how to unwind this practically. For all I know she could go into wronged spouse attack mode and try to "f" me over.

She asked me last night again to show her how to take care of finances. You know, I've been at this with her for 20+ years...just to try and learn it. Now that she's going to be on her own...she really going to need this. Part of me wants to say kiss my a$$...good luck trying to swim. I will however give her this last parting gift and good luck to her.

I am so beat right now.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 03:03 PM
One day at a time. Whether the road leads back to your S or someone new, you'll know when you get there. Take the scenic route.. There's no rush.

Banana - thanks....your words are magic
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 03:05 PM
You've done your best Rick. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Same with your W.

You put a year into trying to correct and attone for past mistakes, only to get crapped on over and over again.

I think that when all is said and done, you can hold your head high and be proud of the fact that you gave it your all. That you did everything you knew to do to try and get your M back on track.

There is a saying in real estate, "never let a deal die on your side of the desk." You've done your part, and done it well. The ball is no longer in your court.

Get some sleep, Rick.

(((Hugs))) ==@ @==
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 03:16 PM
Thanks T2
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 03:17 PM
T2 - the first and last thing I ever did with her was take her for ice cream...weird huh.... I got the same flavor both times...orange and pineapple
Posted By: jbnati Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 03:35 PM
Rick, I believe this is the first time I've posted to you. I feel your pain, buddy. I think my way of thinking parallels yours and my W's philosophy agrees with my W's philosophy.

Hang in there man, and try to get some rest.
Posted By: ptcr Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 04:14 PM
Rick....I have tears and goose bumps for you my friend. You are a courageous man to stand for your M, a beautiful person, a loving Dad, and she is a fool to walk away from you. Period. You are in my thoughts and prayers constantly, as are some many of us in this situation. Be strong and take a sleeping pill. My doc recommends 2 Benadryl and nothing stronger. Sleep will be sooo helpful.
Posted By: ces67 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 05:02 PM
Hope you can get some rest soon. The next few days may be even more bumpy as the details of separation start being worked out.

Good luck. I'd say "be strong" but you're already doing that.
Posted By: mimivac Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 05:25 PM
Wow, it seems that you've had a real breakthrough. Take some time for yourself now. Of course you will be reeling and the details of your possible S and D will be yet another hurdle. So make sure to take extra good care of yourself during this.

You have done the hard work and can move on without regrets if that's what's in the cards for you. You are a model of what it means to have dignity for yourself and openness to your M within your own boundaries. Thanks for that.

Mimi
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 06:13 PM
Originally Posted By: jbnati
Rick, I believe this is the first time I've posted to you. I feel your pain, buddy. I think my way of thinking parallels yours and my W's philosophy agrees with my W's philosophy.

Hang in there man, and try to get some rest.


Hey Jbnati! I've seen your posts around the boards! How are you? Its so nice of you to offer your insight. If your sitch is like mine then good luck to you and may you make the best decicions you can, with a clear head and heart.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 06:16 PM
Originally Posted By: ptcrussell
Rick....I have tears and goose bumps for you my friend. You are a courageous man to stand for your M, a beautiful person, a loving Dad, and she is a fool to walk away from you. Period. You are in my thoughts and prayers constantly, as are some many of us in this situation. Be strong and take a sleeping pill. My doc recommends 2 Benadryl and nothing stronger. Sleep will be sooo helpful.


Thanks PTC! Every person who sends me a message here has helped immeasurably. I have yoga tonight so I will probably sleep like the dead. Hope so!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 06:19 PM
Originally Posted By: ces67
Hope you can get some rest soon. The next few days may be even more bumpy as the details of separation start being worked out.

Good luck. I'd say "be strong" but you're already doing that.


Thanks CES. It ought to be very interesting to say the least. Could go any way on the ugliness scale if she gets crazy a$$ on me. If she drinks then look out. I'm worried about her. Hoping at least the kids will be enough to motivate her now that I'm not the Master Enabler anymore.

Been meaning to ask you. Is Sun Records still in Memphis?
Posted By: Jenna333 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 06:20 PM
I'm so sorry, Rick. I'm proud of you for standing up for yourself and your M. You can't make her see that she is walking away from something amazing. She will likely realize it in time when she's truly without you.

Hang in there. We're here for you.

(I wish there was more that I could do for you! Words just don't quite cut it frown )
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 06:23 PM
Originally Posted By: mimivac
Wow, it seems that you've had a real breakthrough. Take some time for yourself now. Of course you will be reeling and the details of your possible S and D will be yet another hurdle. So make sure to take extra good care of yourself during this.

You have done the hard work and can move on without regrets if that's what's in the cards for you. You are a model of what it means to have dignity for yourself and openness to your M within your own boundaries. Thanks for that.

Mimi


Well Mimi...I can look back on most of this and feel I rose to the levels of the principles I chose to live by. I have some "wince" moments in this DB story too. I know I also learned from those and stayed on the high road. I very nervous about how this plays out in day to day, but do feel a strong sense of soemthing very good hidden just around the corner! Good luck to you!!!!!!!!
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 08:12 PM
Originally Posted By: rickb89

Well Mimi...I can look back on most of this and feel I rose to the levels of the principles I chose to live by. I have some "wince" moments in this DB story too. I know I also learned from those and stayed on the high road.


You will always be able to look back on this time and KNOW that you did all that you could in the name of love for you, your w, and your kids. When your kids get older they will also be able to look back and see how amazing you were.

That I think is priceless!!

Best of Luck to you Rick!!!
Posted By: bustorama Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 08:17 PM
I hear ya, Rick about feeling beat right now. It sure can be draining and feeling even defeated sometimes, especially when you are at the turning point you are.

As part of moving on, really try to focus on what 25, true gritter, myself and others have said. It's not just about getting busy with yourself and embracing your own life, but really ACCEPTING your W's point of view.

In the below exchange with your W, you are still very antagonistic to her point of view.

Originally Posted By: rickb89
Last night I clearly expressed my beliefs in.....love as a choice, that M's ebb and flow, that love is built...not dropped out of the sky.....

Her opinion was quite the opposite...that if a R goes bad it's like an abscessed tooth that you rip out to save the rest of you, that you don't beat a dead horse, that she's been unhappy for a long time.

I explained that I've been unhappy too for a long time. To me that meant we needed to find new tools to enhance our M, and that I'm not intimidated by the fact that there has been unhappiness. In the grand timeline of things, these moments were bound to happen along the line.

I said if we take just the first baby step in the direction of our M we can possible save all of this and that real M's are built softly, step by step, with a quiet gentle tenderness, and that the euphoria in all R's passes and should be replaced by these steps.


In telling her that you do not agree with her model of M/R/love (boldfaced above), you are still telling her that her feelings are wrong and invalid. That you do not accept her views on R/M/love or, more importantly, her feelings. You are NOT on her side.

Instead, you turned it around and made it about yourself and your feelings. Yes, you and your feelings ARE extremely important. But, the WAS does not want to hear about them, certainly not now, when they are fogged out and see you as not on their side. Don't fight her on her feelings. They are her feelings and very important to her, the same that yours are very (painfully!) important to you.

How might it have gone differently?

W, you've been unhappy a long time, huh? You don't feel the way you want to feel about us? You even feel like our R is a dead horse, so bad it needs to be ripped out like an abcessed tooth? Wow, I didn't realize it had gotten so bad for you. I can see why you want all that to stop if that's how bad you feel. That you want your unhappiness to end once and for all and you feel that ending our R will do that for you, huh?

And you don't say anything else. That is accepting and validating her feelings. You are not agreeing that you would do the same thing or that you would make the same choice or that you think her choice will lead to her happiness.

You've hung on longer than may have been healthy for you or for her. There are hints of anger and resentment coming through in your messages now (boldfaced below). A consequence of "giving" hoping to influence her in return, but without reward. Of being rejected over and over again. She did not hold a gun to your head compelling you to do this for her. Please don't do it to yourself anymore. It's time for distance and YOUR healing, Rick.

Yes, let her find her own way. You can do this.

Originally Posted By: rickb89
I said that she has quite some time to take even one step but instead has spent all her time on herself only and for herself only, which coupled with the lifestyle change has done a lot of damage..however I have stood by her her entire journey through this...and been rebuffed 100%.

I was willing to go forever for her. She chose such an immoral path (by my definition) that she became the abscessed tooth (to use her analogy).

She asked me last night again to show her how to take care of finances. You know, I've been at this with her for 20+ years...just to try and learn it...Part of me wants to say kiss my a$$...good luck trying to swim.
Posted By: mimivac Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 08:45 PM
Bustorama, interesting. I can see that it would be healing to totally accept, if not agree with, your WAS's feelings, rather than to fight them. I think it could be a way to really heal and let go of the anger at your S for not doing what you thought he/she should have done to save your M. In my case, my h keeps emphasizing that his feelings are "real" and "not a joke." Things have gone a lot better for us once I started validating how he feels. He feels what he feels -- it is neither right nor wrong. It is also easier for me to go through this if I see us as two equals with differing approaches, rather than adversaries or as victim/perpetrator. I do think this kind of acceptance is difficult and comes with time and, to a certain extent, detachment. I am still working on it.

Thanks for the interesting thoughts.

Mimi
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 09:55 PM
Originally Posted By: sayitaintso
Originally Posted By: rickb89

Well Mimi...I can look back on most of this and feel I rose to the levels of the principles I chose to live by. I have some "wince" moments in this DB story too. I know I also learned from those and stayed on the high road.


You will always be able to look back on this time and KNOW that you did all that you could in the name of love for you, your w, and your kids. When your kids get older they will also be able to look back and see how amazing you were.

That I think is priceless!!

Best of Luck to you Rick!!!


Thanks SAIS!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/13/12 10:00 PM
Busto and MiniMe. I'm exhausted and have run out of gas to think right now. I need some rest before dwelling on all this but do not deny I was pushing my thoughts and feelings on her...what a day...
Posted By: bustorama Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/14/12 02:38 AM
Mimi, ya acceptance (with time) can help both the LBS and WAS heal.

Rest well, Rick.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/14/12 02:41 PM
Originally Posted By: bustorama
I hear ya, Rick about feeling beat right now. It sure can be draining and feeling even defeated sometimes, especially when you are at the turning point you are.

As part of moving on, really try to focus on what 25, true gritter, myself and others have said. It's not just about getting busy with yourself and embracing your own life, but really ACCEPTING your W's point of view.

In the below exchange with your W, you are still very antagonistic to her point of view.

Originally Posted By: rickb89
Last night I clearly expressed my beliefs in.....love as a choice, that M's ebb and flow, that love is built...not dropped out of the sky.....

Her opinion was quite the opposite...that if a R goes bad it's like an abscessed tooth that you rip out to save the rest of you, that you don't beat a dead horse, that she's been unhappy for a long time.

I explained that I've been unhappy too for a long time. To me that meant we needed to find new tools to enhance our M, and that I'm not intimidated by the fact that there has been unhappiness. In the grand timeline of things, these moments were bound to happen along the line.

I said if we take just the first baby step in the direction of our M we can possible save all of this and that real M's are built softly, step by step, with a quiet gentle tenderness, and that the euphoria in all R's passes and should be replaced by these steps.


In telling her that you do not agree with her model of M/R/love (boldfaced above), you are still telling her that her feelings are wrong and invalid. That you do not accept her views on R/M/love or, more importantly, her feelings. You are NOT on her side.

Instead, you turned it around and made it about yourself and your feelings. Yes, you and your feelings ARE extremely important. But, the WAS does not want to hear about them, certainly not now, when they are fogged out and see you as not on their side. Don't fight her on her feelings. They are her feelings and very important to her, the same that yours are very (painfully!) important to you.

How might it have gone differently?

W, you've been unhappy a long time, huh? You don't feel the way you want to feel about us? You even feel like our R is a dead horse, so bad it needs to be ripped out like an abcessed tooth? Wow, I didn't realize it had gotten so bad for you. I can see why you want all that to stop if that's how bad you feel. That you want your unhappiness to end once and for all and you feel that ending our R will do that for you, huh?

And you don't say anything else. That is accepting and validating her feelings. You are not agreeing that you would do the same thing or that you would make the same choice or that you think her choice will lead to her happiness.

You've hung on longer than may have been healthy for you or for her. There are hints of anger and resentment coming through in your messages now (boldfaced below). A consequence of "giving" hoping to influence her in return, but without reward. Of being rejected over and over again. She did not hold a gun to your head compelling you to do this for her. Please don't do it to yourself anymore. It's time for distance and YOUR healing, Rick.

Yes, let her find her own way. You can do this.

Originally Posted By: rickb89
I said that she has quite some time to take even one step but instead has spent all her time on herself only and for herself only, which coupled with the lifestyle change has done a lot of damage..however I have stood by her her entire journey through this...and been rebuffed 100%.

I was willing to go forever for her. She chose such an immoral path (by my definition) that she became the abscessed tooth (to use her analogy).

She asked me last night again to show her how to take care of finances. You know, I've been at this with her for 20+ years...just to try and learn it...Part of me wants to say kiss my a$$...good luck trying to swim.


Okay Busto...I'm rested enough to give this its fair consideration. I have to admit every point you make her is correct. She is where she is for her own reasons and she has a right to be where she is. I am most definitely making personal judgements on her based on where I am. And much of my anger is selfish in that its me freaked about my own world collapsing.

Thanks...will think this through today
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/14/12 02:44 PM
Originally Posted By: Jenna333
I'm so sorry, Rick. I'm proud of you for standing up for yourself and your M. You can't make her see that she is walking away from something amazing. She will likely realize it in time when she's truly without you.

Hang in there. We're here for you.

(I wish there was more that I could do for you! Words just don't quite cut it frown )


Thanks a bunch Jenna. One of the reasons I've been talking to you nons-stop is because I see you and J as where M and I were when we were just starting out. You have a real chance to get this now, and not be in my shoes in 20 years.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/14/12 02:46 PM
Originally Posted By: mimivac
Bustorama, interesting. I can see that it would be healing to totally accept, if not agree with, your WAS's feelings, rather than to fight them. I think it could be a way to really heal and let go of the anger at your S for not doing what you thought he/she should have done to save your M. In my case, my h keeps emphasizing that his feelings are "real" and "not a joke." Things have gone a lot better for us once I started validating how he feels. He feels what he feels -- it is neither right nor wrong. It is also easier for me to go through this if I see us as two equals with differing approaches, rather than adversaries or as victim/perpetrator. I do think this kind of acceptance is difficult and comes with time and, to a certain extent, detachment. I am still working on it.

Thanks for the interesting thoughts.

Mimi


That's a good and healthy way to look at it!
Posted By: ptcr Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/14/12 02:59 PM
Give me some examples of how you validate his feelings...I am at a loss. My H will not even talk about feelings....
Posted By: Harrier Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/14/12 03:03 PM
Rick...I hope you don't take this as criticism of your effort.

But what I read from your story that you basically gave your wife a choice of working on the M or herself. I think it was an impossible choice to begin with.

From your first posts here, your W has said to you all along that she needs to figure her major, major issues out. She is broken and you can't possible expect to repair the M with one party who is so broken. Why would you want to even try?

Maybe she will never be fixed, but again that is not your issue for now.

I mean to some extent you kept the pressure up to work on the M, whether unconsciously or not. It was only a month ago that you were still confused about the idea of "detachment" (or so you said.)

You also said that you 9 months isn't that long of a time to deal with a crisis such as hers. But then 12 months is?

I think another part of this equation is your mutual interest from an OW.

Look, only you truly know your situation and everyone has a breaking point. But I would urge you to really think about things.

They say it takes a months for every year of marriages...that's 2 years for you. No one is saying you have to be a doormat for 2 years or put your life on hold for 2 years, but I don't think you give up either.

Lastly, I'm not quite clear on what you are actually doing here. Are you divorcing? Separating? asking her to move out? or keeping the in-house separation and just emotionally stepping back? have you communicated this to her more clearly than here.

"I am done with her" can mean so many things. I think you have to figure out what this means to you - really. (you've said similar things the past 2 months, then you come back)

sorry if this seems a little blunt and I know the frustration too well.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/14/12 03:28 PM
Had a lifetime's worth of input from everyone yesterday. So many people with loving, supportive and caring thoughts and advice.

I have been fortunate enough to have you all as friends. There have been some veterans (Mach, Busto, 25, True Grit, WHG) who have already been down the path that I'm on and I was fortunte enough to get their input. Gentle when needed, supportive when needed, and 2" * 4"'s when needed.

I keep posting this stuff about me because I know there are a number of you behind me on the same road, and I hope you guys can learn from the trials I have already lived.

The latest layer of the onion I'm peeling is about anger. You will get hurt in a WAS sitch more than most pain that anyone can know. You will see things happen that will bring out more anger in you than you ever thought possible. You will see your precious little kids suffer and want to tear the world in half out of anger.

I finding out it is very necessary to find the sources of this anger (NHMom you there?) and recognize them for what they are. It's the hardest thing to do because if you're like me you get all caught up in how "right" you are, how you know what divine principles are and your S is not living them, how they are hurting the kids and should be judged and executed for this.

Be very careful about knowing the source of your anger. I'm not preaching here because I'm doing this today - asking myself this. It is NOT EASY.

How much of your hurt is truly all about your own feelings, your own gratification? I'm not saying this doesn't sukk totally. I'm saying that if you look at it, it's often because we are not getting what we want or expect.

I have judged my W as a failure to herself, to me and kids because her actions were not in accord with where I am now. Then when I can step out of my own needs for a minute I can see her for just her. And i see a horribly tortured woman, who knows enough to know she's in the midst of some tangled life in the balance sitch, but in enough of a psyche crisis to not know what and when some demon is controlling her. And she's doing this live surrounded by the people she knows she's hurting, all the while surfacing above water every now and then to get air but then drops back under.

When I take myself and my feelins out of the equation and look at it from above. In fact, I saw a photo of the earth from the furthest satellite we have in outer space and saw this teeny little haze spec of dust, and I thought all of us are from that little spec, our entire history of life, every feeling everyone has ever had, every joy and pain, it helped me look at my W.

Why can't I just take the pain and accept she's where she is for her own reasons? It's often because it's about what I want in my life and disappointed about what isn't there. Understandable but selfish in and of itself.

I wouldn't want to be in her shoes in a million years. Knowing that, how bad of a villian can she really be? She's just some little girl who is getting her a$$ kicked by her history.

I can let her go, and can still support her. I need to be aware of when it's my needs getting in the way. And no one is saying I can't move on and satisfy them. I'm not a prisoner.
Posted By: mimivac Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/14/12 03:49 PM
Originally Posted By: rickb89
Why can't I just take the pain and accept she's where she is for her own reasons? It's often because it's about what I want in my life and disappointed about what isn't there. Understandable but selfish in and of itself.

I wouldn't want to be in her shoes in a million years. Knowing that, how bad of a villian can she really be? She's just some little girl who is getting her a$$ kicked by her history.

I can let her go, and can still support her. I need to be aware of when it's my needs getting in the way. And no one is saying I can't move on and satisfy them. I'm not a prisoner.


Nice post, Rick. Your sitch and the replies have definitely helped me on my journey. I think that what you write is the exact reason that we are told to have no expectations and to GAL in DB. It is hard to accept where your WAS is emotionally if you have expectations that they must fulfill your needs in the M. They can't. That's why they became a WAS. So, as conterintuitive as it seems, you have to stop expecting that he/she will behave as you would, or that he/she will take your M or your feelings into consideration at this point. That won't happen.

But, of course, we still have our needs. So, we must GAL. We must try to fill the void with life-affirming activities/people/experiences so that our needs do not get in the way of WAS's healing and, more importantly, so that we see life outside of our sitch and know that it is out there for us no matter what happens. I really do believe this is healthiest for all involved. Now putting this all into practice, that's what takes time and wisdom and growth.

Mimi
Posted By: purgatory Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/14/12 03:51 PM
Originally Posted By: rickb89

I can let her go, and can still support her. I need to be aware of when it's my needs getting in the way. And no one is saying I can't move on and satisfy them. I'm not a prisoner.


Wow. Bet you never thought a year ago you could get to this level of clarity.

I respect you do much for what you've gone through and how you've carried yourself with your head high. It is so admirable that you are making the hard choices for the sake of your kids- REAL Love!! They might never acknowledge it right now- since they are going through their own suffering process, but they will look back wen the dust has settled and see that their dad was next to them every step of the way. You should be very proud of yourself.

Like I told Mnky.... I'll bring tequila or tissues- whatever you need!
Posted By: Cadet Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/14/12 05:01 PM
Originally Posted By: rickb89
Bugsy...just found your new thread. Someone posted above about how long this process takes. That stuck with me today as so true. I keep hearing that it takes 1 month for every year married. I'm starting to believe that.
If the math is correct I have another year on the crazy train!
^^^^^^ That is an EXPECTATION, ever hear of the STOCKDALE paradox?
Has to do with POW's in Vietnam that said we will be out in 1 year or next Christmas.
They were the ones that died after that time passed and their expectations were not fullfilled.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/14/12 09:21 PM
Originally Posted By: Cadet
Originally Posted By: rickb89
Bugsy...just found your new thread. Someone posted above about how long this process takes. That stuck with me today as so true. I keep hearing that it takes 1 month for every year married. I'm starting to believe that.
If the math is correct I have another year on the crazy train!
^^^^^^ That is an EXPECTATION, ever hear of the STOCKDALE paradox?
Has to do with POW's in Vietnam that said we will be out in 1 year or next Christmas.
They were the ones that died after that time passed and their expectations were not fullfilled.


Yup...already set myself up that way for when the first year mark came
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/14/12 09:28 PM
Harrier...not avoiding your post...I'm at work...need time to think it thru and will post back later...maybe the post I wrote after your's may answer some things you asked
Posted By: Truegritter Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/14/12 09:39 PM
Good stuff Rick.

You are doing the hard work now.

Don't forget about yourself here as you move into this new awareness.

Her crisis may be a reason for her choices and seeing that can help you find peace, love and empathy for her.

It is still not an excuse for bad behavior. She doesn't get a free pass to destroy the people around her who love her.

Allowing her to live that out may be hard, but it is healthy for you and your family and ultimately her.
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/15/12 02:28 AM
^^^^ agree!

I don't believe unconditional love means putting that person's needs above your own (and in your case above your children as well). Life is about choices. I think the unconditional part is allowing those we love to make their own choices despite us maybe not agreeing with them. Whether they thrive or fall.. It is ultimately the consequence or perhaps the reward of their choices.

We love them enough to allow them to decide without pushing our own agenda.

Oh it's so easy for me to say.. smile your kids are so lucky to have such a great dad who loves them and has been a shining example of a man who has fought to the best of his abilities for them. When the apocalypse comes.. They'll be in good hands!
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/15/12 02:28 AM
((((( ))))) almost forgot!
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/15/12 02:41 AM
How come you get to have a thread with 173 posts?

A new record!
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/15/12 03:11 AM
oh that's funny... yeah rick, dbmod will probably be wandering around in a day or two and locking large threads...

BTW: In labug's thread, your last post there, regarding the length of time thing... not sure exactly how you meant it...

Here's the thing, though... harsh, but something to really consider... if your W truly is MLC...

YOU (your M) ARE ALREADY DEAD! As in the stockdale paradox...

I am sure you understand this, but many people who assume MLC (whether it is or not) sometimes get the feeling that whether or not they do any work, the MLCer will come out the other side and then things can be considered...

That's danger making... even some of the more obvious signs of MLC can be part of a vanilla WAS script... MLC gives us a false sense of available time, as Cadet and others have mentioned above...

it's best that we assume we don't have that luxury... and living like we're already dead... that can help motivate us in any sitch...
Posted By: Harrier Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/15/12 03:43 AM
Rick you owe me no comment or nothing. I was just giving you a few things to chew on...you do owe it to yourself and your situation to go back and reread your own story from time to time (if you don't already)

I guess for me, it wasn't until well after the first year until the anger and the sense of self righteousness fully subsided. I could've thrown in the towel, but I'm sure as heck glad I didn't.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/15/12 11:46 AM
Originally Posted By: barely floating
((((( ))))) almost forgot!


banana - your advise is as usual totally helpful. I think you are where I'm at too in understanding and yes, it's easier to say it to me than yourself...but I know you get it.

And back at you...you're the best Mom possible. You're kids are so unbelievably fortunate!

((((banana bread)))
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/15/12 11:59 AM
Originally Posted By: Harrier
Rick you owe me no comment or nothing. I was just giving you a few things to chew on...you do owe it to yourself and your situation to go back and reread your own story from time to time (if you don't already)

I guess for me, it wasn't until well after the first year until the anger and the sense of self righteousness fully subsided. I could've thrown in the towel, but I'm sure as heck glad I didn't.


Why didn't you throw in th towel? Where you at my point and then what...I need to hear your story. Why r u glad you didn't throw in towel? Did your S cheat...and you had kids who knew...i.e. was your sitch like mine? Did you R?

And BTW...whose the OW your referring to? My friends and me are curious as hell. Am I having blackout spells and going vampire at night or something?

And yes, the anger and self-righteousness is still in me...have to remember Yoda before I succumb to The Dark Side
Posted By: Harrier Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/15/12 06:09 PM
Originally Posted By: rickb89


Why didn't you throw in th towel? Where you at my point and then what...I need to hear your story. Why r u glad you didn't throw in towel? Did your S cheat...and you had kids who knew...i.e. was your sitch like mine? Did you R?


Everyone's situation is unique to them. I did what was best for me. My W is not in the same crisis as yours (I do believe she has unresolved issues that she refuses to address). My W had a EA with a co-worker mentor/she still is in contact with him though its b/c work.

I wanted to give up, I was basically planning an exit timeline. My needs weren't getting met, she wasn't trying, yada yada yada. My bomb is from 11/2010. But when I took a step back I realized everything I've ever wanted in a partner, she had. There was no one else to 'tempt' me. Plus our kids are very young(2,5). Plus, I'm only 41, so I had some time.

Then about a month ago, things started to change. We aren't fully R, but I feel better about it. She is doing a lot of planning for our future. She has never said "I want to work on the marriage" But if you asked her, I'm sure she'd say she is and has been showing it. It's slow but it's going. If I would have given up, I might have lost that chance.


Originally Posted By: rickb89
And BTW...whose the OW your referring to? My friends and me are curious as hell. Am I having blackout spells and going vampire at night or something?


Unless, I'm confusing your with someone else, did you have a friend who was going through something similar who expressed an interest?
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/15/12 06:21 PM
Originally Posted By: Harrier
Originally Posted By: rickb89


Why didn't you throw in th towel? Where you at my point and then what...I need to hear your story. Why r u glad you didn't throw in towel? Did your S cheat...and you had kids who knew...i.e. was your sitch like mine? Did you R?


Everyone's situation is unique to them. I did what was best for me. My W is not in the same crisis as yours (I do believe she has unresolved issues that she refuses to address). My W had a EA with a co-worker mentor/she still is in contact with him though its b/c work.

I wanted to give up, I was basically planning an exit timeline. My needs weren't getting met, she wasn't trying, yada yada yada. My bomb is from 11/2010. But when I took a step back I realized everything I've ever wanted in a partner, she had. There was no one else to 'tempt' me. Plus our kids are very young(2,5). Plus, I'm only 41, so I had some time.

Then about a month ago, things started to change. We aren't fully R, but I feel better about it. She is doing a lot of planning for our future. She has never said "I want to work on the marriage" But if you asked her, I'm sure she'd say she is and has been showing it. It's slow but it's going. If I would have given up, I might have lost that chance.

This feedback will give many people hope and maybe some patience. Glad I asked..glad you responded. Funny..it, the chance to R just came about for you without any big fanfare or trumpets from heaven, meaning time did it's work quietly.


Originally Posted By: rickb89
And BTW...whose the OW your referring to? My friends and me are curious as hell. Am I having blackout spells and going vampire at night or something?


Unless, I'm confusing your with someone else, did you have a friend who was going through something similar who expressed an interest?


That's correct...you win the memory prize! That is Kelli, lifelong friend and fellow LBS, and that did happen. It's not a factor or a blockage to me being clear about my sitch, not to diminish in any way her being a bff. I had no idea who you could have been talking about
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/15/12 06:41 PM
181! Godzilla indeed..
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/15/12 07:15 PM
89 Denver posted this to someone else not sure if you saw it. Thought you might like it.


The Lighthouse

Your spouse is in huge conflict. The good news is; and the truth is that they are totally incapable of a healthy relationship with anyone right now. The competition that we believe exists with the Other Person is a shallow, empty reflection of God's light in this world. It is empty and lonely no matter how good the rush.

Their actions are actions that they themselves do not like in themselves right now. Though the need to go back again and again and attempt to prove themselves wrong or right is strong, they do not like what they are doing.

Their actions toward you, the children, the Other Person, and themselves, as well as God, keep them from engaging in any type of real interaction with any real depth and truth.

All they offer are misguided attempts to fill the void that has appeared in their life. Yet the filling is way too fleeting to sustain them and the truth is with them each night he or she lies down, regardless of whom is next to them.

They are the living cliche of 'no matter where you go, there you are.'

They are lost to themselves.

And you stand at that point of being the lighthouse home, even though they create the waves that block their vision from seeing the beacon.

You become the lighthouse. You fill your home with light, calmness and sanctuary.

Just visualize yourself as a lighthouse.

You offer them glimpses into that sanctuary at every chance you get. You invite them toward it. Let them know it is there as much as you can in a most subtle way.

You cannot trust them right now, but you know that, so they can't hurt you right now. They will spend great energy to convince others differently...but you know better.

You show the path by also protecting the children from their painful actions. Set clear boundaries that the Other Person is not part of your children's lives...without Love Busting. Offer alternatives that let them see the children, but be clear that the Other Person is to have no access to them. You fill the children's lives with stability. They deserve it and need it more than anything else.

Do not discuss or powerstruggle with them on irrational movements. Seek out and validate the rational ones with lots of praise for when he or she chooses correctly.

Your spouse is very lonely and sad right now, but that is ok. No one can stay very long in that chaos. Remove yourself from any aspect of participating or adding to the chaos, and eventually they will see that you are the only one who stood with clarity and reason when they needed it most.

Be the lighthouse.
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/15/12 07:25 PM
^^^^^

that is a great post! Thanks for sharing!
Posted By: RoRoinMD Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/15/12 07:29 PM
Agree with BF. I needed to read that, along with Harrier's posts. Everyday this board gives me a reason not to give up.
Posted By: mr mr Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/15/12 08:27 PM
Hey Rick just checking in to see how it's going. Not bad for me today, check in later.
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/15/12 08:37 PM
Yes, thanks for sharing, all of you, forever and ever, amen.
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/15/12 08:41 PM
187!!
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/15/12 08:43 PM
Oh I get it now duh
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/15/12 08:51 PM
Yes, 63, every little bit helps.
Posted By: adinva Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/15/12 09:26 PM
I'm thinking of you too 63.
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 01:17 AM
godzilla shall live on
Posted By: nhmom Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 01:32 AM
Originally Posted By: rickb89
I finding out it is very necessary to find the sources of this anger (NHMom you there?) and recognize them for what they are. It's the hardest thing to do because if you're like me you get all caught up in how "right" you are, how you know what divine principles are and your S is not living them, how they are hurting the kids and should be judged and executed for this.

Be very careful about knowing the source of your anger. I'm not preaching here because I'm doing this today - asking myself this. It is NOT EASY.

How much of your hurt is truly all about your own feelings, your own gratification? I'm not saying this doesn't sukk totally. I'm saying that if you look at it, it's often because we are not getting what we want or expect.


Thanks of thinking of me when talking about anger smile

I recognize that I have a lot of anger and frustration in me, and I know how important it is to get to the bottom of it. I'm still working on figuring that that. I think it is a mix of things.

Btw, you're a very awesome person! The support you have to offer while going through something immense yourself is invaluable.

I hope you and your son's are doing well! They are so very lucky to have you as their dad, you know that, right?
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 01:35 AM
and another thing...
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 02:03 AM
I dunno maybe we should talk about changing colors or the designs of license plates up north. How much would a plate cost that says " save the mnky" ." these are my "rust balls" or "love dogwoods in the spring"?
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 02:08 AM
these are my "rust balls" has got to be my favourite.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 03:55 AM
A plate that says "spnk the mnky"
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 04:02 AM
Originally Posted By: mr mr
Hey Rick just checking in to see how it's going. Not bad for me today, check in later.


Michael - I have to say I'm feeling optimistic about the future, and praying W can find her answers in this world. She's constantly sharing her inner being which is good. I can still be her friend and support wherever she ends up, and I do think she has to go out into the world and face it alone in order to overcome her demons. I don't see it happening in the safety net of our home here.

How are you getting on?
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 04:06 AM
Originally Posted By: nhmom
Originally Posted By: rickb89
I finding out it is very necessary to find the sources of this anger (NHMom you there?) and recognize them for what they are. It's the hardest thing to do because if you're like me you get all caught up in how "right" you are, how you know what divine principles are and your S is not living them, how they are hurting the kids and should be judged and executed for this.

Be very careful about knowing the source of your anger. I'm not preaching here because I'm doing this today - asking myself this. It is NOT EASY.

How much of your hurt is truly all about your own feelings, your own gratification? I'm not saying this doesn't sukk totally. I'm saying that if you look at it, it's often because we are not getting what we want or expect.


Thanks of thinking of me when talking about anger smile

I recognize that I have a lot of anger and frustration in me, and I know how important it is to get to the bottom of it. I'm still working on figuring that that. I think it is a mix of things.

Btw, you're a very awesome person! The support you have to offer while going through something immense yourself is invaluable.

I hope you and your son's are doing well! They are so very lucky to have you as their dad, you know that, right?


Thanks so much NH. Pretty much everyone on this board are superhuman people...a lot to admire.
Posted By: keep_going Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 04:13 AM
Originally Posted By: rickb89
Originally Posted By: nhmom
Originally Posted By: rickb89
I finding out it is very necessary to find the sources of this anger (NHMom you there?) and recognize them for what they are. It's the hardest thing to do because if you're like me you get all caught up in how "right" you are, how you know what divine principles are and your S is not living them, how they are hurting the kids and should be judged and executed for this.

Be very careful about knowing the source of your anger. I'm not preaching here because I'm doing this today - asking myself this. It is NOT EASY.

How much of your hurt is truly all about your own feelings, your own gratification? I'm not saying this doesn't sukk totally. I'm saying that if you look at it, it's often because we are not getting what we want or expect.


Thanks of thinking of me when talking about anger smile

I recognize that I have a lot of anger and frustration in me, and I know how important it is to get to the bottom of it. I'm still working on figuring that that. I think it is a mix of things.

Btw, you're a very awesome person! The support you have to offer while going through something immense yourself is invaluable.

I hope you and your son's are doing well! They are so very lucky to have you as their dad, you know that, right?


Thanks so much NH. Pretty much everyone on this board are superhuman people...a lot to admire.


Rick89 & NHMom - anger seems to be the hot topic of the day. I would certainly fit in the category of the ones that really need to take a good look at my own anger and what purpose it serves me, so I can get rid of it... I have been in a very dark place lately and I am trying to get out of it.

It's good to see that I am not alone, or going crazy.
I empathize tremendously with you both!
And we should at least pat ourselves in the back that we are trying to conquer our demons. We'll get there! :-)
Posted By: Truegritter Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 07:58 AM
Originally Posted By: Rick
I dunno maybe we should talk about changing colors or the designs of license plates up north. How much would a plate cost that says " save the mnky" ." these are my "rust balls" or "love dogwoods in the spring"?


Well if you haven't lost your sense of humor by now then you're OK
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 11:02 AM
Keep going - at a certain point of learning to detach, you might be able to take your anger out and look at it....it's usually there because we are not getting what we want and/or we are hurt beyond measure...understandable for sure...and also a function of our needs...which are also okay.

The thing that is so tough to get to and takes time for most of us is that we have to realize our S is on their own life journey, and they do have that right, no matter the consequences to us and/or kids. Not easy...in fact brutal to get to this point.

Once we get there you can look at your S for what they have gone back to...being an individual...not part of a M...or maybe still part of it but not consciously known to them anymore.

If you can see that troubled soul for what they are...then the anger starts to diminish. And if an affair? That's the worst anger to have and also very understandable. It takes the most effort of your life to accept, and actually you never accept it. You just recognize that your S ended up there, and probably not with that intention. You learn to be yourself again in a new world with a new future that may or may not include your S depending on the sitch. The anger gets compartmentalized maybe, and doesn't consume you as much. This may be an issue you have inherited in your life for good, how could it ever not be a part of you if the one you love(d) cheats? Time does heal and provide its own wisdom.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 11:03 AM
Originally Posted By: Truegritter
Originally Posted By: Rick
I dunno maybe we should talk about changing colors or the designs of license plates up north. How much would a plate cost that says " save the mnky" ." these are my "rust balls" or "love dogwoods in the spring"?


Well if you haven't lost your sense of humor by now then you're OK


gallows humor?
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 11:10 AM

When I got home tonight from b-ball and buddies house S13 simply said "code red". That's our code for W is hammered. Phew...you know those drunks that get sappy and maudlin? Yup. Lots of fun. I listened for about two hours until S13 got my signal and rescued me to bring him to the store.

She really was belting out a ton of deep inside stuff and I really paid attention under the circumstances. Trying to put together the 50 different thread topics took some mental gymnastics. I think I got a good sense of what she is trying to tell me.

She doesn't realize this but she has my total support in whatever she does or whereever she goes. I truly want her to succeed, get past her psyche stuff, figure her life out, be content, and wherever she can do that I'm fine. I think she wants to take off and try it on her own, totally solo...something she's never done. I'm sure none of us here can relate to how you do that and leave your kids?

I hope she does go and find her answers. I'll set her up if that's what she needs.

BTW one of the posters here today shared with me how his W had the same trauma at same age, same diagnosis, same issues, same triggering of the bomb as a result as an adult. A horrible story to be sure. It also shoes me that what we are going through is understandable...we're all human...and many suffer similar problems. WE have to do our part even though the hardest thing ever.
Posted By: purgatory Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 11:44 AM
It's sad (and humorous) that you all have developed a 'code red' as a warning for your W's moods. You deserve an award for being as to sit and listen to her ramble on!

Your level of detachment is amazing!!! I hear you saying that you will help her, of he asks for it, in anyway needed... But at the same time- the plans you have for you life and your kids are going to continue and aren't effected by what she's choosing to do.... I hope to reach that one day (hopefully it won't take a year!)

I feel like a stupid cheerleader- because I'm just repeating the same things as everyone else.... But I'm so proud for you!!

I'll make you a pie!!
Posted By: ces67 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 12:26 PM
I think you need to have a robot with silver arms like dryer venting that comes out of a closet at times like these with a loud "DANGER - RICKB, DANGER". Then it can just go back in the closet....
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 02:02 PM
Originally Posted By: rickb89

When I got home tonight from b-ball and buddies house S13 simply said "code red". That's our code for W is hammered.



LMFAO^^^

Well Done Rick!!
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 02:37 PM
Rick, you've mentioned this before and I guess it gets glossed over. Is she hammered a lot? If so you know you aren't dealing with a person, but rather a substance. Even if she's self medicating due to her trauma, it doesn't matter, you can't save her. And self-medicating on top of her prescribed meds is over the top dangerous.

Ever thought of Alanon for you and Alateen for S13?

(((Rick)))
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 07:15 PM
Originally Posted By: ces67
I think you need to have a robot with silver arms like dryer venting that comes out of a closet at times like these with a loud "DANGER - RICKB, DANGER". Then it can just go back in the closet....


CES..you don't know how funny that is. I do have a Lost in Space robot that says that! I'll post a photo of it! She actually bought it for me years ago. How ironic!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 08:51 PM
Originally Posted By: purgatory
It's sad (and humorous) that you all have developed a 'code red' as a warning for your W's moods. You deserve an award for being as to sit and listen to her ramble on!

Purg...Vinnie and I have had this secret code for quite some time sadly...but it does work! Code red means hammered...avoid at all costs; code blue means super depressed...avoid at all costs; code green means she's jealous of an imaginary woman (if she ever knew about our gang ha ha); code black means suicidal; code grey means she's speaking in tongues (we can't understand). I know it might sound like a big joke at her expense but it really is not; we are dealing with such wild mood swings and output that it became an early warning system...kind of gallow humor


Your level of detachment is amazing!!! I hear you saying that you will help her, of he asks for it, in anyway needed... But at the same time- the plans you have for you life and your kids are going to continue and aren't effected by what she's choosing to do.... I hope to reach that one day (hopefully it won't take a year!)

Purg...none of this has been easy, and I just recently made the breakthrough to understanding my anger and judgement. You get the lighter side of this from me and we can laugh about our trials together, but it has been so hard. I'm just now knowing I can see her objectively, let her go whereever she needs to go and help her if she wants it. She will always be part of me, hell she's been my adult life story up to this point. Purg in your way you have a big trial ahead of you with the deployment. Think long and hard about what life you want going forward. You don't have to have him in it in anyway less than what your life calls for if you choose. I'm not advocating you leaving, bt I am asking you to think about all we have learned about DB. It is possible that you can tell yourself how you want to live and maybe he will be a match for that. If not, some other incredibly lucky bastard will. Mach suggested to me once that I write a "mission statement". Just write down "how" you want to live. It helps you know. In fact. I suggested to W last night when she was asking for help that I had heard they help. She may or may not remember that this morning.

You're so strong. Glad to know you!

I feel like a stupid cheerleader- because I'm just repeating the same things as everyone else.... But I'm so proud for you!!

I'm glad you're a cheerleader for me...even if it is a Raiders cheerleader...shudder. Hey I'm a cheerleader for you too, short skirt, woolly sweater, hairy legs

I'll make you a pie!!


Mmmmm pie. What's your favorite kind?
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/16/12 08:58 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
Rick, you've mentioned this before and I guess it gets glossed over. Is she hammered a lot? If so you know you aren't dealing with a person, but rather a substance. Even if she's self medicating due to her trauma, it doesn't matter, you can't save her. And self-medicating on top of her prescribed meds is over the top dangerous.

Ever thought of Alanon for you and Alateen for S13?

(((Rick)))


Bugsy - When the bomb came she went on a binge for a long time and then she started recognizing a big problem underneath it all, hence the psychiatrist. She always had an issue with it...not regularly at all, but when she did drink fugghedabouddit. Now, it comes up every now and then. Some of her new crowd have a bit of a wild lifstyle that doesn't help.
I know last night S13 was looking over at me like Dad, this is a bad one.

I'm dealing with a lot here and I really am wandering around in the dark a lot about the many factors and outcomes of this sitch. I read about both you and Brklyn Babe going to this. I think there's one in the next town to me...will check it out.


((((Bugsy))))
Posted By: nhmom Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/17/12 01:42 AM
Rick,

the code system is an incredible way to communicate with S13. My heart breaks for S13 and for the rest of your family to have to go through it. I grew up with a violent and abusive alcoholic and I know too well the effects of the illness on a child. Unlike S13, I didn't have someone help me cope with it. It's actually the main reason why I chose to come to this country after high school, I wanted to get as far away from home as possible.

As Labug said, mixing drugs and alcohol is incredibly dangerous. I think you mentioned a few posts ago that your W decided to go off her meds, so I hope she isn't mixing now.

You have a wonderful heart, Rick. Your sitch makes it really hard to DB, yet you've been holding on and going strong for a year. You're doing all the right things...detaching, GALing, and most importantly taking care of your kids and yourself.

((Rick))
Posted By: keep_going Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/17/12 02:01 AM
Hi Rick,

I am sorry to hear all the tribulations you are going thru with your wife. It sounds like a very complex and intense situation. You and your whole family will be in my prayers.

As for Alanon and Alateen, definitely great resources. I think your son would specially benefit from Alateen. He is in such a difficult age anyways. My H's dad was also a violent and abusive alcoholic and H told me that Alateen saved him - his mom initially made him go when he was also 13. He said that the best part for him was to realize that there were many other kids just like him and that it made him feel understood and gave him a sense of belonging in a way that his mom nor his siblings were able to provide for him.

(((hugs)))
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/17/12 03:04 AM
Originally Posted By: nhmom
Rick,

the code system is an incredible way to communicate with S13. My heart breaks for S13 and for the rest of your family to have to go through it. I grew up with a violent and abusive alcoholic and I know too well the effects of the illness on a child. Unlike S13, I didn't have someone help me cope with it. It's actually the main reason why I chose to come to this country after high school, I wanted to get as far away from home as possible.

NHM - you might find out thru this sitch that you have carried the demons of that tough childhood with you and it affected how you were in the M. Not a groundbreaking thought here, but this sitch does give a chance to find these things and get past them.

As Labug said, mixing drugs and alcohol is incredibly dangerous. I think you mentioned a few posts ago that your W decided to go off her meds, so I hope she isn't mixing now.

I have no idea at this point what's what. When she was talking to me last night it was like she was drunk dialing me but from two feet away. It was scary as hell....and S13 was not digging it. I read True Grit's story and it spooked me - same trauma...same age...same wild responses...same breakdown...same diagnosis..same type of girl. His story didn't end so well for her. I don't think I will ever have a life with her as H/W going forward...but I will look after her forever. I think about my next relationship and will make sure this doesn't corrupt that by keeping watch for her. You never know though...miracles do happen.

You have a wonderful heart, Rick. Your sitch makes it really hard to DB, yet you've been holding on and going strong for a year. You're doing all the right things...detaching, GALing, and most importantly taking care of your kids and yourself.

Want you to do the same...you obviously have the heart and compassion to do this.

((Rick))
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/17/12 03:14 AM
Keep Going - thanks. I will check these out. I am thinking S13 might be hesitant about it because then he's kind of admitting to the world what he is ashamed of. I will talk to them first about it before speaking to S. Thank you!
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/17/12 03:22 AM
Yo bro do ya think tomorrow is going to be good flying weather?
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/17/12 03:31 AM
Originally Posted By: Rick1963
Yo bro do ya think tomorrow is going to be good flying weather?


Not sure...not a flyer so don't know what to look for! Did you mean this for Monkey?
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/17/12 04:29 AM
No chance my s15 would be down for any of that. I check in w/ him periodically to see if he has any questions for me about the sitch and he's like "Nope" and if I press he just pulls back.

I know its hurting him and I just want him to know I'm there for him but I guess it will come in his own time. This sitch is teaching me to detach and let people be themselves so I try to remind myself of that w/ him although I don't want him to hurt.
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/17/12 06:38 AM
great. now we have flying monkeys.
Posted By: keep_going Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/17/12 08:43 AM
Originally Posted By: barely floating
great. now we have flying monkeys.

LOL...
Posted By: Cadet Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/17/12 09:43 AM
Originally Posted By: barely floating
great. now we have flying monkeys.
If you follow the YELLOW BRICK ROAD then you get to see FLYING MONKEYS
and eventually there will be a man behind the curtain - OH NO wait that is MACH. smile smile smile
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/17/12 07:53 PM
What's all this talk about Monkey's?

I guess my Thunder Lizard thing never caught on for ya Rick. Thought since you are the big Godzilla fan and all?

Rick, you are beyond a doubt one of the best guys I have ever come across. One rightous dude!
Posted By: Cadet Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/17/12 07:57 PM
Originally Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky
What's all this talk about Monkey's?

I guess my Thunder Lizard thing never caught on for ya Rick. Thought since you are the big Godzilla fan and all?

Rick, you are beyond a doubt one of the best guys I have ever come across. One rightous dude!


I told you FLYING MONKEES would show up ^^^^^^ smile smile smile
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/17/12 08:15 PM
let's hope the man behind the curtain is wearing more than just a speedo!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/17/12 08:17 PM
W told me today she is going back on meds. She had decided on her own to go off them and its been crazier than usual as a result. Apparently the psychiatrist found out and said...don't do that!

I'm doing my best to help her find her way out of this trap. She talks to me all the time and whenever she does it is any number of different topics and times in her life. And the emotions are all over the place in any conversation.

I think what's gonna happen is she is very close to the edge of disaster and is desperately purging whatever is in her to find answers. In a way I am acting as a kind of unofficial psychiatrist to her (god help her!). I have found that what seems to work is if I let her let it all out and wait a day or two to respond...something might stick every now and then. Instead of me answering her questions saying something like...okay I see what you mean...have you thought about this or that? Instead, I say it more in general terms about people in those types of situations and then say what I think might help them. A tiny difference but it seems to take the defensiveness and running away out of her.

These marathon session go on until one or both of us drop from exhaustion. The weird thing is she never ever asks me anything about my life. It's just so weird, like I could be into anything at all and she wouldn't know anything about me.

I am seeing some ways to help her break out her fears and take a leap into doing something where she feels she is getting some answers and meaning in her life. I want her to make it through this for her, live, succeed, find her place on earth and in spirit.

I see her having a massive journey ahead of her. She's trying at getting over all this trauma and then has to catch up in emotional development from childhhod to now. I can't see it happening any other way than by going out on her own and getting through all of this.

For me, I see that and also live with the consequences of her lifestyle choices that are going on. That's why I moved forward to protect the rest of us. Maybe some day she will be through this and she will feel at ease with herself.

For now she is looking east for something unknown to her, and i am looking west knowing how I want to live. Is where I am the infamous ILYBIMILWU or however the hell you spell it? I do know I will always want the best for her, and every bit of work I am doing with her in this nowadays is for her only. The former thought patterns of how everything related back to saving our M is gone.

When she is talking and there's a lot of her talking and me listening I find myself thinking of how she has no idea that I will do anything for her to find a way out of this for her, she keeps talking and asking and I'll help her. I am very protective of her. I also keep thinking of how far I have pulled away. I keep looking at her while she talks and I keep sending out internal signals to find the passionate love I had for her...no response. Today, she was talking and I was forcing myself to look at her physically which is tough because I think of her in an A and get totally turned off, but nonetheless I gave it the old college try to see if there was any turn-on factor left for her. I never would have thought it possible but there really isn't. Just nothing.

Feeling pretty good about all else though - sons. my life as an individual, future R, career. I haven't forgotten what a tragedy this is, but working on rebuilding from ground zero.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/17/12 09:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky
What's all this talk about Monkey's?

I guess my Thunder Lizard thing never caught on for ya Rick. Thought since you are the big Godzilla fan and all?

Rick, you are beyond a doubt one of the best guys I have ever come across. One rightous dude!


Oh I get The Thunder Lizard. I guess no one else did!

Thanks for ther thoughts Ray!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/17/12 09:12 PM
Originally Posted By: barely floating
let's hope the man behind the curtain is wearing more than just a speedo!


Without a doubt will be wearing a speedo
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/17/12 09:17 PM
What up thunder lizard ? Gonna watch the quiet man tonite? U know the one with John Wayne and Maureen Ohara.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/17/12 09:20 PM
Hey Ray...being an absolute lightweight with alcohol...way out of training on this...I will manage to down one green beer in one gulp in your honor tonight!

Let's see if I can do one for each of you guys. Debauchery as a GAL moment tonight! Time to let the demons out.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/17/12 10:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Rick1963
What up thunder lizard ? Gonna watch the quiet man tonite? U know the one with John Wayne and Maureen Ohara.


Great movie! Have fun!

I'm just about at The Lucky Dog in South Boston to see the wee Irish people!
Posted By: nhmom Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/18/12 01:25 AM
Oh boy....the Italians are getting together with the Irish. Beantown must be wild tonight!
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/18/12 02:16 AM
Nhmom have u ever been to an Irish funeral? If u haven't u must. But be careful. Crazy stuff happens
Posted By: nhmom Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/18/12 02:36 AM
Originally Posted By: Rick1963
Nhmom have u ever been to an Irish funeral? If u haven't u must. But be careful. Crazy stuff happens


No, but now I'm intrigued.
Posted By: Truegritter Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/18/12 07:40 AM
The Italians have definitely got with the Irish I am half of each...

Originally Posted By: Rick
I have no idea at this point what's what. When she was talking to me last night it was like she was drunk dialing me but from two feet away. It was scary as hell....and S13 was not digging it. I read True Grit's story and it spooked me - same trauma...same age...same wild responses...same breakdown...same diagnosis..same type of girl. His story didn't end so well for her. I don't think I will ever have a life with her as H/W going forward...but I will look after her forever. I think about my next relationship and will make sure this doesn't corrupt that by keeping watch for her. You never know though...miracles do happen.


Yes they do...
(miracles) I wouldn't bet on it. This isn't about a game of chance because you hold the key...

Don't make your choice on what happened to me...

But in spite of me. As I am fond of saying.

I met my W while she was in crisis. We have no children. I don't know what is down the road and neither do you.

THAT is why YOUR choice is so critical.

Don't you see?

It is not circumstance.

It is NOT the cards you have been dealt.

It is especially NOT the cards she has been dealt.

That was not her fault. Not an excuse, but still not her fault.

It is what YOU do with it...

That will make ALL the difference in the world.

To you and your children.

And

This is tough one to get.

Especially to your wife.

PS: Stop involving your son in the code deal. That's his mother. Treat her accordingly.

ALWAYS. Period. It is hard I know. But do it. It is the decision that makes sense for everyone involved.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/18/12 04:50 PM
I get that TG...it is about my choice and that I have a key. In fact, it took a long while to realize that it is my choice and that a key exists.

So I choose to do the immediate damage control first, protect the kids, protect me, rally and provide a future for them and me, recognize that my life and happinesss is my responsibility.

For her, I choose to keep being there when she needs it and reaches out for it, letting her go because she needs that, being a place of stabillty that she may someday be able to see, and even if she doesn't see what's what now I'm still there when she needs me.

Sometimes I think there's a conflicting message in DB'ing. Let them go, GAL, get past the anger and judgement, be responsible for your own life and happiness, recognize they have their own path to walk, deal with their A's, have faith in the universe. You do this despite an army of naysayers around you. And then when you realize you can lovingly let them go, and amazingly find that you can create happiness, some might say you are leaving them behind or your being too harsh.

If anyone thinks this is some easy choice, or I'm so happy about seeing my lifelong lover self destruct, or see my kids in pain, or that I didn't suffer the worst pain on earth and earn my way back to the world of the living teaspoon by teaspoon, then F off. I really can't get more alone anyway. You think I wanted to end up walking around in Boston with a bunch of strangers at 4 AM? Like you say it's a choice. I'm choosing to help her in the only way I see that MIGHT help her. I'm choosing to follow the true light of hope that I earned by my efforts, and appreciate the new people that have shown they care and have become the most amazing friends.

And humor in this? If there wasn't some way of finding something lighthearted in this it would have killed us all.

I wish the best for her. I'm choosing to not get in the way of whatever whereever she needs to be.

No. this is not directed at you TG....any of today's frustration. I had to own this sitch and do something about it no matter how shittty is was for me and kids. She may or may not own any of this...that's her road.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/19/12 02:13 PM
Obviously yesterday I was on the emotional side...no sleep from the night out with my S24...still adjusting to a new mindset on this sitch...having some "well meaning" people who have never lived this type of sitch question my integrity.

No one said this was going to be easy, and it isn't.

When you love someone your whole adult life, and finally get to the point where you can set them adrift, wish them well, still love them in your own way, and finally see the new life in front of you, it can be stunning in its impact, and sometimes the smallest nudge can set off a wave of emotions.

When you live with your S in this sitch, and then you reach this point, they are still there in contact with you on a daily basis, it can get quite confusing. Before, when there were signs of a new M life showing it was completely laced with my intentions - hoping that would lead to a R. Letting that control me was destroying my life, and I have the kids to think about.

Reaching this point in this sitch, finally understanding and reaching a new state of mind is necessary. If you live with your S still then there are new hurdles to understand and find a way to live with.

W went back on her meds per her docs orders and she was different than has been the case for a couple of weeks. Yestereday she was seemingly very happy. I had finished remodeling a master bath and she was really getting off on decorating it. She worked on projects, cleaned the house a lot, seemed bouyant all day. She got her hair cut back to the 80's pixie spiked punk sytle she used to have and looked like she did when I first knew her, and she seemed excited about the new/old look. All good for her and I'm glad for her.

I don't have the specific details of how this will play out. Primarily, I want her to find herself, and get past the diagnosis's she has, and be fulfilled in her life. At this point she is living here. At some point our life paths are going to require some decision made on living arrangements.

For now, she keeps reaching out to me in ways to get her answers and I'm happy to be her sounding board. This does seem to be helping her, and I am making sure my path is not seen as an agressive response to her because it isn't.

Over the weekend two of my sons came to me separately and both had pretty much the same questions about their Mom. They felt that they have reached out for even more than the past year and were commenting that they can't reach her, that they can't even remember when they had a real conversation with her. If my boys were little I might have been able to shield them from a lot of the daily impact of this. Since they're older and pretty with it they saw it all unfold in front of them. I'm giving them the same advice I give myself...that she really does love them more than anything....that she's at a place many people are at in their life...and despite the surface actions she is a great human being in pain...that if the conversations aren't there just be there for her and she will reach out...that she will always be their Mom and no matter the outcome here, she will always love them and needs them in her life, and she should be in their lives.
Posted By: RoRoinMD Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/19/12 03:30 PM
Originally Posted By: rickb89
No one said this was going to be easy, and it isn't.

When you live with your S in this sitch, and then you reach this point, they are still there in contact with you on a daily basis, it can get quite confusing.

Reaching this point in this sitch, finally understanding and reaching a new state of mind is necessary. If you live with your S still then there are new hurdles to understand and find a way to live with.


I think you said this beautifully! It's something I'm striving for, but haven't gotten to yet.
Posted By: Jenna333 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/19/12 05:06 PM
Yes, I can't imagine living with my S throughout all of that. I don't understand how it could be seen that you're leaving her behind at all. She's choosing to stay behind. You're choosing to find happiness in your life. Life is too short!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/19/12 05:13 PM
Thanks RoRo, Jenna
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/20/12 02:12 PM
A lot of stuff gets tossed around here on the board as fact, and I doubt that the data is their to support those facts.

Like I wonder if there is a statistical difference in the number of divorces that occur in M that remain in the same home vs those that physically separate?

Quote:
When you live with your S in this sitch, and then you reach this point, they are still there in contact with you on a daily basis, it can get quite confusing. Before, when there were signs of a new M life showing it was completely laced with my intentions - hoping that would lead to a R. Letting that control me was destroying my life, and I have the kids to think about.
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/20/12 03:01 PM
Great posts Rick. I'm honored to have met u on here and to have you as a friend.

You are a great man!!!
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/20/12 03:38 PM
^^^what he said.

I have noticed you posts over the past week seem much more centered Rick. I think you are on to something here.
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/20/12 03:40 PM
Almost forgot...242!!!!!!!!!! I'm impressed.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/20/12 07:19 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
A lot of stuff gets tossed around here on the board as fact, and I doubt that the data is their to support those facts.

Like I wonder if there is a statistical difference in the number of divorces that occur in M that remain in the same home vs those that physically separate?

Quote:
When you live with your S in this sitch, and then you reach this point, they are still there in contact with you on a daily basis, it can get quite confusing. Before, when there were signs of a new M life showing it was completely laced with my intentions - hoping that would lead to a R. Letting that control me was destroying my life, and I have the kids to think about.





Not sure, but I would think there's more D amongst those that are physically separated. I'm thinking it must have been pretty bad to separate in the first place. But then my sitch goes against that maybe. Hell, I really don't know, that's why I'm asking.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/20/12 07:20 PM
Thansk SAIS, Monkster...maybe some day we will all be talking about how great EVERYTHING is!
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/20/12 07:42 PM


[/quote]

Not sure, but I would think there's more D amongst those that are physically separated. I'm thinking it must have been pretty bad to separate in the first place. But then my sitch goes against that maybe. Hell, I really don't know, that's why I'm asking. [/quote]

But you have to think the stress of dealing with this everyday is dangerous physically and emotionally.

My life is placid compared to some of the other situations here.
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/20/12 08:06 PM
^^here, here
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/20/12 08:46 PM
La I agree. Want to scratch my eyes out sometimes. Since we have silent dinners I can really hear her nasal dripps pretty clearly. She has been sick more than usual. Maybe I'll get me some ear plugs. Wada ya think?
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/20/12 09:46 PM
There's merit in that Bugsy. I asked because it sukks so bad having the walk away in such close proximity at home. Maybe separation is good to completely and clearly examine the R.

Who knows? Who would even want to count the statistics?
Posted By: ces67 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/21/12 03:00 AM
Maybe it's a coin toss. In some ways separating takes away the immediate stress but I would think you'll need a plan to reconnect at some point if the goal is still to build a better marriage.

I've been living with my w post bomb for a good while and it's sux but at the same time there are benefits. Each sitch is different though so could certainly understand some who just need to get out of a bad sitch.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/21/12 03:03 AM
Originally Posted By: ces67
Maybe it's a coin toss. In some ways separating takes away the immediate stress but I would think you'll need a plan to reconnect at some point if the goal is still to build a better marriage.

I've been living with my w post bomb for a good while and it's sux but at the same time there are benefits. Each sitch is different though so could certainly understand some who just need to get out of a bad sitch.


Right, probably just comes down to the individual sitch.
Posted By: zig Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/21/12 05:15 AM
Originally Posted By: rickb89

Sometimes I think there's a conflicting message in DB'ing. Let them go, GAL, get past the anger and judgement, be responsible for your own life and happiness, recognize they have their own path to walk, deal with their A's, have faith in the universe. You do this despite an army of naysayers around you.


i feel so confused by it too - since i'm not there yet, i can't imagine getting to that point and then working on the relationship, if it is so effective that it makes the WAS want to come back
Posted By: Truegritter Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/21/12 11:02 AM
Originally Posted By: Rick
No. this is not directed at you TG....any of today's frustration.


I know and even if it were, it's ok.

I have been exactly where you are today Rick. I did not have kids so that part I don't have the specific experience but I know the man you want to be and are becoming and it is work and continually something you must be mindful of in all parts of your life.

Simple words but wise ones I found here with regards to children:

It is not your job to repair the relatinship between them and their mother.

It is your job not to damage it.

In many ways this part is the toughest.

Keep steppin' my friend.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/26/12 04:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Truegritter
Originally Posted By: Rick
No. this is not directed at you TG....any of today's frustration.


I know and even if it were, it's ok.

I have been exactly where you are today Rick. I did not have kids so that part I don't have the specific experience but I know the man you want to be and are becoming and it is work and continually something you must be mindful of in all parts of your life.

Simple words but wise ones I found here with regards to children:

It is not your job to repair the relatinship between them and their mother.

It is your job not to damage it.

In many ways this part is the toughest.

Keep steppin' my friend.


Thanks TG...this is very helpful!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/26/12 10:02 PM
This morning was the usual start to the morning but as usual that's when things happen with W. Do you remember in school days when you would get to school early, and it was kind of like a mini recess? That's what it's like in our house in the morning for me and kids, usually pretty upbeat. S13 had backed up the line for the bathroom so D21 and me where waiting, and then S21 and we were all excited telling each other about who did what last night, checking out D21's new hair color, comparing Game of Thrones notes, laughing, just like it used to be in school. I think it got to W.

I saw her drive away, and just before I left I saw her back and in the driveway. I was ready to leave and I saw her face, and she was very sad, even for her usual state. So I went over to see if there was anything I could do and she started hysterically crying. So I just let her fall into me and just let it all out. I eventually asked what was wrong and she said she has to get out of here, move out. In my mind I was thinking and feeling that is the right thing. She's got to do something with her life. I asked if something had happened to bring this on today and she "nothing" and "everything". She said she has "f"'ed up her whole life, and hurt me and the kids beyond repair and can see how far removed from us she has become or we from her. Even though that is completely true I didn't want to say anything to hammer her even more than her own realization has. So i just said to her anything she does going forward is a choice, she can choose anything different beyond this and that maybe all of this was necessary but going forward she can still choose a better existance than this. She let it out for about a half hour. I said do you want me to stay here to talk or anything. She said no she's good.

Just a day in the life.
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/27/12 04:44 AM
Wow Rick! So do you think she will move?
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/27/12 01:41 PM
I don't know. She's in a very tortured state. I can see that the realtionship with her boys is weighing very heavily on her right now. She's all over the map emotionally. I just keep letting her talk and hear her stories...seems to help her.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/27/12 01:44 PM
Ray...regardless of the sitch I hate seeing her hurt and she is nothing but hurt for a long time. I'm good with my life now...a lot of great stuff happening.

I hope she can find peace and I'll help her however she needs it, well there are some things I won't help her with..wink wink
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/27/12 02:12 PM
Originally Posted By: rickb89
Ray...regardless of the sitch I hate seeing her hurt and she is nothing but hurt for a long time. I'm good with my life now...a lot of great stuff happening.

I hope she can find peace and I'll help her however she needs it, well there are some things I won't help her with..wink wink


You are a true testament to us fellow DB-ers Rick!
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/27/12 02:13 PM
And G** D***, breaking records w/ the post count on this thread.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/28/12 01:00 PM
"So I went over to see if there was anything I could do and she started hysterically crying. So I just let her fall into me and just let it all out. I eventually asked what was wrong and she said she has to get out of here, move out. In my mind I was thinking and feeling that is the right thing. She's got to do something with her life. I asked if something had happened to bring this on today and she "nothing" and "everything". She said she has "f"'ed up her whole life, and hurt me and the kids beyond repair and can see how far removed from us she has become or we from her"

Wow! A lot of raw emotion wrapped up in this, to be sure. Too bad she doesn't realize that she does have the power to reverse course and work to make things right.

Sometimes I wonder if an intervention of sorts wouldn't help in these kids of sitch's. You know, the entire family comes together to show love and support but also demand that she seek help. I wonder how that would work out.

It just sounds like your W is so lost and is just fumbling around in the fog and darkness. It is a real shame that she can't move in the direction that I think she realizes would be her salvation, which is to reach out and ask for help and then accept it once it is offered.

I guess time will tell if she can get to that place. Try to hang on, if you can.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/29/12 02:52 AM
2Pac - we have tried the family healing thing, the intervention thing...was not successful. She is the type of person who keeps it all inside and the fact that she even decided to see a psychiatrist was so suprising. He wants to see her every day if he could but she feels she can only handle so much at one time.

So she is going at her pace, which if you think about it, she is unraveling all this trauma from age 8 to now. She's spent over 30 years in a self imposed inner world, and in denial. There's a lot to unravel.

The damage to our family though is staggering. All roads somehow lead to this.

Her family has a history of this...a lot..her Mom...many of nher siblings. Its quite frightening.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/29/12 03:21 AM
Yeah, I knew she had been seeing a P but was thinking more acute care might be needed. Kind of like a rehab type environment where she can get round the clock care while she works to heal her wounds.

It is just painful to see someone in such pain and emotional turmoil.
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/29/12 07:37 AM
rick, how does she cope in other aspects of her life? i know she has strained her relationship w/ the kids and her mom (due to OM).. but what about work? and her other friends? is she functioning there?

just wondering if all these issues are only affecting her home life.

btw.. should say that it's amazing how wonderfully supportive you have been trying to be for her. you're a... superstar =@@=
Posted By: ces67 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/29/12 12:19 PM
Rick, how often has your W given that type of confession (for lack of a better word?) That is some pretty honest statements about herself. Of course there is a big difference between acknowledging something and then doing something about it. But just maybe that transition is starting?

From looking at my W, I see the victim mentality so clearly and it sounds like your W is heavily grounded in this mindset. The statement about "beyond repair" seems to indicate that. If she believes it is beyond repair then she doesn't have to do anything about it.

I pray she can see options and that her IC help her. Wish the road were shorter for you my friend. Take care,
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/29/12 04:08 PM
Originally Posted By: barely floating
rick, how does she cope in other aspects of her life? i know she has strained her relationship w/ the kids and her mom (due to OM).. but what about work? and her other friends? is she functioning there?

Her work - I think she is on the ropes there too. She has always been the top in her profession. I'm seeing it all fall apart, and that's scary on many levels, including the day to day part of keeping the house going. Her friends - she bolted on many of them and disappeared there too. However, she kinds of swings back in and out, and they do their best to help. They're freaked out too. And when they call her on her life choices, it hasn't made it easy for her.

just wondering if all these issues are only affecting her home life.

btw.. should say that it's amazing how wonderfully supportive you have been trying to be for her. you're a... superstar =@@=


Thanks banana!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/29/12 04:21 PM
Originally Posted By: ces67
Rick, how often has your W given that type of confession (for lack of a better word?) That is some pretty honest statements about herself. Of course there is a big difference between acknowledging something and then doing something about it. But just maybe that transition is starting?

She's been pretty open to me for about nine months out of the year. I'm telling you she is so lost, that she is miles from thinking beyond herself, but tortured by the reality of living amongst the wounded. If she can find herself, and get back with her kids I'm happy for her. CES - I have no idea how to handle something like this really, even with all the research I've done. The psychiatrist is working his ass off for her and wants to see her way more. I don't know what to do often. I'm watching someone die before my eyes. I really think if she was on her own, and just started taking one step at a time in a life completely of her own direction, she will get her answers and sense of self.

From looking at my W, I see the victim mentality so clearly and it sounds like your W is heavily grounded in this mindset. The statement about "beyond repair" seems to indicate that. If she believes it is beyond repair then she doesn't have to do anything about it.

It's so hard to really know what's going on. I hear everything and a lot is contradictory. And I'm not going to write off the harmful life choices as if she's some sort of person incapable of making decisions. Choosing to ditch your famile to drive 600 hundred miles to, you know, with soemone else in your family might be crazy in some aspects, but its not someone operating under mind control. Choice.

I pray she can see options and that her IC help her. Wish the road were shorter for you my friend. Take care,


Thanks CES...glad to know you're out there helping out.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/29/12 04:30 PM
BB - meant to add ^^^^^^^... she's not some person who is how you would imagine a disturbed person to be like...you know...hunched over in a corner, drooling, making wierd animal sounds.

It's more her emotions and choices run wild. She's quite capable of being social, and I've learned that someone with her dx's are very good at compartmentalzing on the surface so thet they can be very sociable, charming, witty. It's like what's happened to her is that the water table was rising her whole life and its starting to spill out above ground. Mostly its just evident at home. Her decision for a new life was a decision where she could safely have her needs met without there being any of the responsibilities of the world she feels trapped in and scared to death of.

I cant' say she was a prisoner or a victim and write off this kind of damage. Who's to say she is just at a level where a stronger person might have not made the choices that hurt us all.
Posted By: Truegritter Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/29/12 08:44 PM
I know I have written to you about her guilt. It is there and it will come to the surface now and again. That is why u say there is enough there applied by her way down in there and that is what causes confusion and running away from you and her children.

This incident is just that. Emotion coming to the surface.

A turning?

IMO no. You are witnessing the inner struggle.

This is where she needs you to just listen. If your up to it. Remember the golden rule - protect yourself and your family first.

She is going to have to find her own way out of this if she ever does choose to do so.

Sorry for typos...on my phone.

Stay strong and remember who you have become Rick

Anything but that
Posted By: Truegritter Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/29/12 08:45 PM
Scratch that last sentence...damn phone navigation
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/29/12 09:15 PM
TG - listen, boy do I listen. I think my ears have grown from the amount of use over the last year.

I agree with you. I don't think its a turning point. I'm just seeing a brutal inner struggle of hers burst at the seams, and I seem to be her go to person when that happens. It's really kind of ironic. I will listen to her for hours on end and I think she gets something out of it. I usually find it gives her just enough juice to run off and start doing her awful things again.

At this point the shitty irony of that doesn't really bum me out anymore. I have moved beyond it and just see it.

I am taking care of me and the kids, and actually her too while she's here. Somethings going to happen with her soon. I can smell it coming. I'll help her out and make sure she's safe and can find somewhere someway to rebuild her life. My life and kids life have moved beyond that world as best we can.
Posted By: Truegritter Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/31/12 06:03 AM
you're there man.

Just be there for her.

I know it may sound strange but she will remember you for this.

And even if that is all there is isn't an expression of you?

And the upside?

If

If

She figures this sh!t out, you'll be the guy sticking to your values and your guns in face of this crazy thing.

So that is your peace. For you and your children.
Posted By: Cadet Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 03/31/12 12:50 PM
Originally Posted By: rickb89
I just read for the first time, the six stages of a MLC. I do think she is in a MLC but add the childhood psyche issues into the mix and its a hornet's nest.

I think she's coming out of replay stage and entering the depression stage.


After giving you that advice on the alt. I have been trying to read through your thread. I only read this one(part 5) so I may still be missing some things but I get the general idea.

First childhood issues are part of the ingriedients of an MLC. So you are seeing her go back and verbalize some of these issues.

For the most part I think you are doing fine validating and listening to her. I am not sure there is that much more you can DO without totally letting GO. She is in the drivers seat right now and even while drunk, she is driving the car. You must let her. She may need to crash in order to figure out what she needs to do to move forward.
As painful as that is to watch, it is the part that you must play.

As far as your analysis that she is leaving replay for depression.
I do not think you are right about that, she is still in escape and avoid mode. Her replay antics may be changing and depression is part of the entire crisis. Sometimes they can hit what you think is rock bottom and bounce off of it and find more strength in some other way.

But what I see you describing still has elements of replay in it.
The drinking, the crazy friends, the desire to leave.

Anyways I just wanted to leave this message for you.
Keep on your path, she is on hers and as hard as it is to try to control you have learned that you can not.
Be careful enabling her too much.
It is like throwing gas on the fire.
You can do nothing to speed this along but you can do lots to slow it down.

And I know none of us what to slow down this process.

It is long enough as it is.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/01/12 03:43 PM
Thanks Cadet. That makes a lot of sense and it helps.

I hoping for her to find her answers, wishing her well, and have truly let go of the rope (after taking if off from around my neck).

Thanks!!!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/03/12 02:36 PM
Nothing new to say. Enjoying my kids each and every moment, going to yoga, seeing friends, watching movies, reading, remodeling the house step by painful step. Life is full in that respect.

Seeing my W fall apart is not easy. Don't know what's in store for her. It's painful to see. I worry that she might not live through this.

Someone asked me to think about good memoroies from the past, just to break the constant mindset of bad news. I thought about a few cherished moments from the past. I hadn't realized how much that would hurt, incredible pain. It is the past for me but still, that hurt. Its harder knowing my kids are feeling that too. They will reminisce about some family memory, and then I see their faces go blank when the current sitch hits them.
Posted By: Truegritter Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/03/12 10:26 PM
Rick

I am sorry you are hurting. There comes a day when you can remember those times and value them for what they were.

Right now they stand in stark contrast to what is reality.

Just know that what you are feeling is part of it all. It is necessary even though painful.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/04/12 07:48 PM
Thanks TG!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/06/12 01:16 PM


I got to buy a new car yesterday for W, picking it up tomorrow. It's odd doing this, this way. It's not "us" happily buying a new car together. It's me doing this knowing full well that that this is one step in the process of me setting her up for her own life, and me saying goodbye.

I'm also in a different phase of this sitch. I'm mourning the demise of our family, knowing a chapter in my life is truly done. So all the good memories are pouring in. For me, its a sad quiet saying goodbye, not the same feelings as when the bomb happened.

I truly cant stand to speak to her or be around her, and that is unfortunate because she's still in the house here and there. I have asked her to just text or email if we need to handle practical stuff. But, in her state she needs to talk and I'm the one she talks to. So I listen and listen again, and maybe offer a suggestion here and there hoping she can use something to help her climb out of her hole. The thing she doesn't get is that everything she is saying is from someone in a huge crisis, or something that I either morally don't agree with or its a philosophy that I can't stomach at all. I just keep getting quieter and quieter and if by phone she keeps asking if I'm still there. To get to whisper level with her is a struggle. I don't even take her calls anymore without letting them go to VM so I can see what she wants to talk about first.

I'm leading two lives, like Neo in The Matrix. One, is this life full of opportunity and I can, by being still and listening, feel it coming like a freight train. I totally unafraid of jumping this train and seeing where it goes. The other life is this ending chapter, and I hate it.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/06/12 01:29 PM
This morning I think W maybe hit her wall. I've been talking to my former roommates wife, and some people at UMass about what I can do. It doesn't look promising. Basically, the professionals are telling me she has to hit her wall on her own, and I should move on and let her go so someone can survive it and take care of the kids. That this might take years, and may never be the same again. You think DB'ing is counterintuitive, try letting your wife possibly lose it all, and then walking away. She crashed this morning...doesn't want to exist, doesn't want the responsibility of any of us, my beliefs are BS, etc. I can't decribe how bad it is. I hope she makes it. I decided I would take care of the practical stuff like the car and set her up so she can at least know where she stands financially and then off she goes. I dont know what else to do except keep following my gut feelings which are telling me its going to be allright for the kids and me. She is saying "f" her psyche doc too. Once she's out (soon) we can rebuild. Mario and Christina are moving back in so there will be me, and the five kids in all; a new family of sorts.
Posted By: ces67 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/06/12 02:13 PM
Peace be with you, my friend....

Hate all this for you. I believe the future holds good things for you as foggy and as unclear as it may appear currently.

=@@=
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/06/12 03:46 PM
Rick go out and do something fun. Take care of yourself. You and the kids will be fine
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/06/12 07:05 PM
Rick, you called it my friend and here it is. I know that does not make it any easier to watch her self-destruct. The more I get to know you the more impressed I am by the way you have traveled this road. Great things are just around the corner for you and the kiddos!

Vegas...
Posted By: Mach1 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/07/12 01:49 PM
Originally Posted By: rickb89
This morning I think W maybe hit her wall. I've been talking to my former roommates wife, and some people at UMass about what I can do. It doesn't look promising. Basically, the professionals are telling me she has to hit her wall on her own, and I should move on and let her go so someone can survive it and take care of the kids. That this might take years, and may never be the same again. You think DB'ing is counterintuitive, try letting your wife possibly lose it all, and then walking away. She crashed this morning...doesn't want to exist, doesn't want the responsibility of any of us, my beliefs are BS, etc. I can't decribe how bad it is. I hope she makes it. I decided I would take care of the practical stuff like the car and set her up so she can at least know where she stands financially and then off she goes. I dont know what else to do except keep following my gut feelings which are telling me its going to be allright for the kids and me. She is saying "f" her psyche doc too. Once she's out (soon) we can rebuild. Mario and Christina are moving back in so there will be me, and the five kids in all; a new family of sorts.


Hey Bro...

It's scary letting them walk in their own light. It's hard to do the "worse" , in "Better or worse"..

Is that her bottom ? Maybe so, maybe not. Although it is her processing things on her time. It is her looking inside of herself for answers, or partially looking for answers.

In the grand scheme of the Universe, you aren't allowed to know what her bottom is. You may never know what it is, or what it was. That's why it is HER bottom. What you think it is, or should be, is -in reality- not what it ends up being.

I have talked to several people, and read from quite a few more about that "bottom" time in their life. Some people call it the "Threshing Floor", where one stands totally exposed, asking questions and looking for the answers. It is also the place where we question our Faith, and our existence. We question everything about what we know, we give, receive. The LBS gets to that point much earlier than the Life Crisis people do.

They seem to vary, depending on the person. From as hard as having an accident victim die in their arms, to hearing a song on the radio. From staring at a pistol in their hands, to walking through the family room and realizing that they were they only thing missing from their "storybook" life. I read in the archives a few years back, of a woman who poured a cup of coffee one morning, went outside to sit with her OM, and had the casual thought of " Oh, I could be doing this with my Husband". Then got up and went home to work on things....

As hard as this is Rick, I can't think of a more loving thing to give to her. And I pray that one day, she can be healthy enough to give back to you and your family.

There isn't a lot of information written about the place you have reached here. Mostly because the LBS men don't usually last this long. I think it is pretty typical for the men to draw that line in the sand much sooner than our much smarter, superior sex, counterparts do. Mostly because us men have input from two sources. One which isn't that smart.... : o


How you stand now, is a reflection of what you have overcome in your life, what you have overcome through this, and what you are capable of overcoming in the future. What you show those wonderful little (and not so little anymore) people that look toward you for guidance in life. How you act, and who you are, is what they will emulate in their life.

The seeds that you sow today, will provide a harvest for you....


You know where to find me if you need an ear my friend.....
Posted By: Cadet Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/07/12 01:57 PM
Originally Posted By: Mach1
Mostly because us men have input from two sources. One which isn't that smart.... : o

Speak for Yourself, BUT of course you are right!
smile smile smile
Posted By: BklynMom Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/07/12 04:29 PM
Sometimes its hard to believe that its a disease. Its a cancer of their psyche. Like cancer some people have 1 round of chemo and are cured, others battle for years and never make it to the other side.

Your W has a disease, it is now in Gods hands.

Count your blessings and be grateful for your healthy children.
Posted By: 2chiquitos Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/07/12 04:59 PM
you're doing yoga, that's really good. Trying to stay in the present during yoga is challenging. Try meditating, if you haven't already. It also relaxes me.

Take Care Rick
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/07/12 10:12 PM
[quote=ces67]Peace be with you, my friend....

Hate all this for you. I believe the future holds good things for you as foggy and as unclear as it may appear currently.

=@@= [/quo
Thanks CES...you're a great guy and I truly value your insights
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/07/12 10:14 PM
Originally Posted By: Truegritter
you're there man.

Just be there for her.

I know it may sound strange but she will remember you for this.

And even if that is all there is isn't an expression of you?

And the upside?

If

If

She figures this sh!t out, you'll be the guy sticking to your values and your guns in face of this crazy thing.

So that is your peace. For you and your children.


Thanks TG..I feel good about staying true to my core beliefs throughout this, and even finding a way to grow. I hope she can find her answers and happiness. I know I have.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/07/12 10:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Rick1963
Rick go out and do something fun. Take care of yourself. You and the kids will be fine


RickG - I am doing so much that is fulfilling and my days are full.

There's this couple I have heard about that have these truly horrible dinners together. I'm getting a kick out of listening to those stories!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/07/12 10:23 PM
Originally Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky
Rick, you called it my friend and here it is. I know that does not make it any easier to watch her self-destruct. The more I get to know you the more impressed I am by the way you have traveled this road. Great things are just around the corner for you and the kiddos!

Vegas...


Vegas!

I'm with you GMonk. I used to be in the worst pain every day, every breathe was agony. Now, I know without a doubt that some great things are moving into my life. I'm waking up every day feeling pretty good.

That's going to happen to you too...great things....love attracts love...goodness attracts goodness...its a universal principle. You can't even get out of the way of the good things that will come your way. That much I know.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/07/12 10:37 PM
Originally Posted By: Mach1
Originally Posted By: rickb89
This morning I think W maybe hit her wall. I've been talking to my former roommates wife, and some people at UMass about what I can do. It doesn't look promising. Basically, the professionals are telling me she has to hit her wall on her own, and I should move on and let her go so someone can survive it and take care of the kids. That this might take years, and may never be the same again. You think DB'ing is counterintuitive, try letting your wife possibly lose it all, and then walking away. She crashed this morning...doesn't want to exist, doesn't want the responsibility of any of us, my beliefs are BS, etc. I can't decribe how bad it is. I hope she makes it. I decided I would take care of the practical stuff like the car and set her up so she can at least know where she stands financially and then off she goes. I dont know what else to do except keep following my gut feelings which are telling me its going to be allright for the kids and me. She is saying "f" her psyche doc too. Once she's out (soon) we can rebuild. Mario and Christina are moving back in so there will be me, and the five kids in all; a new family of sorts.


Hey Bro...

It's scary letting them walk in their own light. It's hard to do the "worse" , in "Better or worse"..

Yes, it is. I have found the "worse" part to be very different than what I thought. I always had it in my head that "for worse" meant we would be a team meeting hardships together. This was unexpected, but I did learn a lot from this.

Is that her bottom ? Maybe so, maybe not. Although it is her processing things on her time. It is her looking inside of herself for answers, or partially looking for answers.

You're right that I am defining her hitting her wall based on my definition of that. Anything could happen, much worse, much better.

In the grand scheme of the Universe, you aren't allowed to know what her bottom is. You may never know what it is, or what it was. That's why it is HER bottom. What you think it is, or should be, is -in reality- not what it ends up being.

So far that's 100% true.

I have talked to several people, and read from quite a few more about that "bottom" time in their life. Some people call it the "Threshing Floor", where one stands totally exposed, asking questions and looking for the answers. It is also the place where we question our Faith, and our existence. We question everything about what we know, we give, receive. The LBS gets to that point much earlier than the Life Crisis people do.

You know, it's terrifying to see her fall apart in all the ways it's happening. Lately, her phsyical complaints are not the kind of things I'm glad to hear. Kind of like RoRo's H, the way he just seems to be breaking down constantly.

They seem to vary, depending on the person. From as hard as having an accident victim die in their arms, to hearing a song on the radio. From staring at a pistol in their hands, to walking through the family room and realizing that they were they only thing missing from their "storybook" life. I read in the archives a few years back, of a woman who poured a cup of coffee one morning, went outside to sit with her OM, and had the casual thought of " Oh, I could be doing this with my Husband". Then got up and went home to work on things....

As hard as this is Rick, I can't think of a more loving thing to give to her. And I pray that one day, she can be healthy enough to give back to you and your family.

I'm hoping some day she can come to me and say that she made it and that she's happy, content and without fear. That works for me.

There isn't a lot of information written about the place you have reached here. Mostly because the LBS men don't usually last this long. I think it is pretty typical for the men to draw that line in the sand much sooner than our much smarter, superior sex, counterparts do. Mostly because us men have input from two sources. One which isn't that smart.... : o

Well Mach, it's been a long journey. These issues have gone back our entire life together, since her and I were kids. I'm pretty spent by the journey, yet at the same time I've never felt more optimistic. There's something good coming, that I know.


How you stand now, is a reflection of what you have overcome in your life, what you have overcome through this, and what you are capable of overcoming in the future. What you show those wonderful little (and not so little anymore) people that look toward you for guidance in life. How you act, and who you are, is what they will emulate in their life.

The seeds that you sow today, will provide a harvest for you....


You know where to find me if you need an ear my friend.....

Master Kahn....thank you again for the showing me that the paths to a better world were indeed out there.



Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/07/12 10:40 PM
Originally Posted By: BklynMom
Sometimes its hard to believe that its a disease. Its a cancer of their psyche. Like cancer some people have 1 round of chemo and are cured, others battle for years and never make it to the other side.

Your W has a disease, it is now in Gods hands.

Count your blessings and be grateful for your healthy children.


You are so right Brkyln Babe! Maybe this will turn out better for you and family than here? I hope so for you, girls and yes, your H.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/07/12 10:44 PM
Originally Posted By: veroprado
you're doing yoga, that's really good. Trying to stay in the present during yoga is challenging. Try meditating, if you haven't already. It also relaxes me.

Take Care Rick


Thanks Vero! Its nice of you to care and share!

I didn't know it at the time that my entire journey through the Kung Fu world, and then the yoga world was preparing me for a battle of another nature entirely. But thank god I did all that. And yes, I do continue to meditate, but often in the oddest places, when I can find some quiet time.
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/08/12 07:37 AM
(((( )))) very difficult transitional time for you. but in the end.. i know you will come out wiser and stronger.

more than anything, your kids will know you always loved them and that they are the best parts of your life. and the lovely thing.. although your W may be lost and your family feels smaller.. the reality is that your family is actually growing.. with the addition of 2 beautiful girls. and probably a 3rd when your youngest gets older (he seems slick that one. lol). isn't that a wonderful blessing?

step by step.. day by day.. you're getting closer to where you need to be. i really haven't a clue where that is.. but i'm sure you'll know when you get there.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/08/12 07:57 PM
Originally Posted By: barely floating
(((( )))) very difficult transitional time for you. but in the end.. i know you will come out wiser and stronger.

more than anything, your kids will know you always loved them and that they are the best parts of your life. and the lovely thing.. although your W may be lost and your family feels smaller.. the reality is that your family is actually growing.. with the addition of 2 beautiful girls. and probably a 3rd when your youngest gets older (he seems slick that one. lol). isn't that a wonderful blessing?

step by step.. day by day.. you're getting closer to where you need to be. i really haven't a clue where that is.. but i'm sure you'll know when you get there.


Thanks banana....you always put things in perspective...hugs!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/08/12 09:36 PM
If you follow the DB principles all the way through and you learn so much about yourself, get your life back, become a better person, keep it together for your kids, create a new and great life, yet your spouse never recovers and your M ends; was DB'ing a success, or an epic failure?

Easter was nice today. The kids had a blast hunting down the eggs, their gift bags were a great success, complete with Easter Monkeys.

W made a guest appearance and spoke to me non-stop for about two hours. The jist of it is in her words is that she has somehow lost the ability to connect with anyone and wants to be invisible. She says there is something in her that is erupting but she doesn't know what it is. She could only compare it to when she was in labor with our boys, that kind of a feeling. She talked about how she has felt this way as long as she can remember, and that she was able to mask it somewhat when our boys were younger and she had a huge distraction in them. She said she is faking every single human interaction she has.

I have never seen a more tortured soul.
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/08/12 09:58 PM
(((rick)))

The Easter Monkeys made me smile!
Posted By: jks Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/08/12 11:34 PM
Originally Posted By: rickb89
She said she is faking every single human interaction she has.

I have never seen a more tortured soul.


Wow, that is quite amazing that she has come to this conclusion. What a sad life to lead. Is your wife spiritual? Does she ever look for ways to serve others? I have not read your whole sitch so I may be way off in what I'm suggesting but maybe she is needing to find a meaningful way to connect with others?? A great way to do this is to find ways to help or serve others. It forces you to forget yourself and your problems and to focus on what you can do to make someone else feel better. This may not be something that you can tell her to do but you could possibly encourage a situation that would lead her to do this. IDK. Sometimes our best life lessons are learned when we look outside ourselves.
Posted By: BFloat Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/09/12 07:24 AM
La... Easter monkey???
Posted By: nhmom Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/09/12 12:30 PM
Rick -

Glad you had a good Easter! You are so blessed to have your kids and they are blessed to have a great dad!

Your attitude towards life is so inspiring. I hope many people on the board can learn a thing or two from you.

You are so right that the best thing you can get out of of DB'ing is taking control of your own life, because that really is the only thing that we can control.

(((Rick))) You're a true inspiration...we'll be right here with you as you continue on your journey.
Posted By: nhmom Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/09/12 12:31 PM
more ((hugs)) ----@@----

smile
Posted By: cat04 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/09/12 12:38 PM
Originally Posted By: rickb89
If you follow the DB principles all the way through and you learn so much about yourself, get your life back, become a better person, keep it together for your kids, create a new and great life, yet your spouse never recovers and your M ends; was DB'ing a success, or an epic failure?


What do you think?
Posted By: ces67 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/09/12 12:53 PM
Hey Rick, has to be hard to see your W in such a self-destruct mode for so long. The fact that she acknowledged the challenge in herself is good. No telling how long it will stay in this mode before trying to do something about it (if ever). But at least that she acknowledged it could be a positive step for her even if it is a very small one.

Hope your week goes well.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/09/12 02:00 PM
Originally Posted By: barely floating
La... Easter monkey???


Yes, he's a rival to the bunny.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/09/12 02:03 PM
Hey Rick! Hope today is going to be good for you!
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/09/12 02:07 PM
Originally Posted By: nhmom
I hope many people on the board can learn a thing or two from you.

You are so right that the best thing you can get out of of DB'ing is taking control of your own life, because that really is the only thing that we can control.

(((Rick))) You're a true inspiration...we'll be right here with you as you continue on your journey.


Rick- I think I have learned more from you and your thoughts than anyone else on the boards and I just want to say thank you again!

Agree wholeheartedly Nhmom. This is the most in control of my life that I've ever been.

And I too will be right here with you Rick, supporting you during the tough times and celebrating all the good the universe has coming towards you!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/09/12 02:23 PM
Originally Posted By: jks
Originally Posted By: rickb89
She said she is faking every single human interaction she has.

I have never seen a more tortured soul.


Wow, that is quite amazing that she has come to this conclusion. What a sad life to lead. Is your wife spiritual? Does she ever look for ways to serve others? I have not read your whole sitch so I may be way off in what I'm suggesting but maybe she is needing to find a meaningful way to connect with others?? A great way to do this is to find ways to help or serve others. It forces you to forget yourself and your problems and to focus on what you can do to make someone else feel better. This may not be something that you can tell her to do but you could possibly encourage a situation that would lead her to do this. IDK. Sometimes our best life lessons are learned when we look outside ourselves.


Thank JKS...she has always been a deeply spiritual person, very driven by the heart and soul almost to the exclusion of some of the day to day stuff people live with. That she is like this only makes this crisis of hers harder. She's one of those people who feels everything exquisitely, so in this sitch her pain is magnified to extreme levels. Hence, her desire to disappear. She's in constant pain and guilt. And then her fear causes her to close up instead of reach out. She is veyr afraid of any spiritual suggestions that have any taste of organized religion, however I can see her searching in her way through the books I see her reading. She is extremely opposed to any sort of self help scenarion. Again, her fears drive her away from anything where she, in her sitch, feels she is being told what to do. Thats just how she sees things right now. So things like 5 LL, Retrouville, MC is completely poisonous to her. She has been with a psychiatrist for a year now so she's not doing this all alone.

As for her being able to give to others. In fact, her history is of giving and that is also a reason she's done such a 180. Her being a stay at home Mom for years and then her career in the alzheimer's world has all been about giving. So her dilemma has been that she gave and gave on the surface but never knew what she was herself. She's basically trying to unwire a lifetime of mental conflict, and then seeing if she can rewire herself back up somehow.

Thanks for reaching out!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/09/12 02:26 PM
Originally Posted By: nhmom
Rick -

Glad you had a good Easter! You are so blessed to have your kids and they are blessed to have a great dad!

Your attitude towards life is so inspiring. I hope many people on the board can learn a thing or two from you.

You are so right that the best thing you can get out of of DB'ing is taking control of your own life, because that really is the only thing that we can control.

(((Rick))) You're a true inspiration...we'll be right here with you as you continue on your journey.


Thanks NH spy! ((()))
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/09/12 02:27 PM
Originally Posted By: cat04
Originally Posted By: rickb89
If you follow the DB principles all the way through and you learn so much about yourself, get your life back, become a better person, keep it together for your kids, create a new and great life, yet your spouse never recovers and your M ends; was DB'ing a success, or an epic failure?


What do you think?

Cat...at this point I consider it a DB success. Early on in this I would have considered it a total failure!



Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/09/12 02:42 PM
Originally Posted By: ces67
Hey Rick, has to be hard to see your W in such a self-destruct mode for so long. The fact that she acknowledged the challenge in herself is good. No telling how long it will stay in this mode before trying to do something about it (if ever). But at least that she acknowledged it could be a positive step for her even if it is a very small one.

Hope your week goes well.


Thanks CES! I told her yesterday when we spoke that I can understand the words she is saying intellectually, however I can't even begin to know how she actually feels. I get what she is describing and it is territory that I am not living like her. The best i could do was to relate to her similar sitches that were traumatizing that we both experienced but for the fact that we are different people we chose to handle it all very differently. And she's too intimitated by me and other options to simply let go and try outside suggestions. At this point anyway, she's cracking under the stress of her fears keeping her bound tightly, and her knowledge that all the demons are bursting out of her.

Last night all of us, the boys and gf's went to S24 to watch GOT. I have always left the door open for her to rejoining the family and she can't handle that and you know that story. I know she was in our house after we left. The fact that it was Easter, that she didn't show to celebrate it with us, and that she was alone in the house couldn't have been easy on her despite what she says she is feeling right now. That just may be me projecting though. I've listened to her for years about this, and esp. the last year. If I had a gun to my head and was told I had to predict what is going to happen, I'm not seeing good things. If she can find someway to be content and have the relationship again with her kids then I'll be glad.
Posted By: labug Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/09/12 02:43 PM
Yes, Rick, yes!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/09/12 02:44 PM
Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
Hey Rick! Hope today is going to be good for you!


It will be T2! You too!
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/09/12 02:49 PM
Originally Posted By: sayitaintso
Originally Posted By: nhmom
I hope many people on the board can learn a thing or two from you.

You are so right that the best thing you can get out of of DB'ing is taking control of your own life, because that really is the only thing that we can control.

(((Rick))) You're a true inspiration...we'll be right here with you as you continue on your journey.


Rick- I think I have learned more from you and your thoughts than anyone else on the boards and I just want to say thank you again!

Agree wholeheartedly Nhmom. This is the most in control of my life that I've ever been.

And I too will be right here with you Rick, supporting you during the tough times and celebrating all the good the universe has coming towards you!


Thanks Say! Hope your sitch turns out better! The part about the actual moving apart hasn't happened yet. That's going to be a first for me in my life, although I did live it when my parents split up. It creeps me out...the thought about when we actually split things up and all that. i know its necessary though, and actually see that home life can move forward to this new world.
Posted By: jks Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/09/12 02:52 PM
Originally Posted By: rickb89


As for her being able to give to others. In fact, her history is of giving and that is also a reason she's done such a 180. Her being a stay at home Mom for years and then her career in the alzheimer's world has all been about giving. So her dilemma has been that she gave and gave on the surface but never knew what she was herself. She's basically trying to unwire a lifetime of mental conflict, and then seeing if she can rewire herself back up somehow.

Thanks for reaching out!


Oddly enough, my H seemed to have come to this same conclusion to some point when he first left me. He stated that he has always loved helping others and loved doing things for me but throughout it all he felt like he lost himself. And he now needed to start doing things for himself. Hence the reason for his PA.

I am sorry that she is struggling so much right now. You seem to be handling things very well regardless.
Posted By: rickb89 Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/09/12 03:07 PM
JKS - thanks for sharing. It took me a year of torture to get some clarity!

Sad how a PA seems to be the answer for so many?
Posted By: RoRoinMD Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) - 04/09/12 03:25 PM
Hey Rick! Just catching up on your thread. You are doing SO great. I admire how you're still there for your wife, even while trying to move ahead on your own path. I know it's not easy.
© DivorceBusting.com