This is the post from my last thread. Hit 100+ so starting round 3..
Last thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2218279&page=1Well, not sure if it was our talk yesterday but something has impacted my W for the day.
W called me on my way home and asked me to get dinner started. She had run our D's science fair project to the the country show. S13 had bball practice so dinner needed to get started. Not a big deal. Actually thankful she asked for my help. (OK, she told me I needed to do this but that's pretty much always been her way of asking).
I get home and house is far from orderly. There was nothing on the calendar for the day so as far as I know W had no where to be. The clean dishes were still in the washer from last night. All the day's dishes including the kid's breakfast stuff is all over the kitchen counters. No laundry was done (W usually starts this on Mondays). All the presents and gift bags from my D's birthday were still scattered on the floor in the living room untouched from yesterday.
W gets home and its obvious she has cleaned up for the day. Typically she's at least put on some makeup and jewelry. She had no make up and only her single wedding band with no other jewelry on.
She was a bit snippy with me a few times which I ignored. This is usually what I would find when W has spend the day in bed being depressed.
Not sure if it had to do with our money talk yesterday or something else. But something is definitely bothering her a lot more than usual. In the past I've asked if she wants to talk and the answer has always been "no" so I didn't even bother this evening.
You touched a nerve with her, for whatever reason. Good for you for ignoring her snippy remarks. I always remember this saying my grandma told me in regards to fighting in a M: "the fire won't get bigger unless you give it air... So shut your mouth!" gotta love old southern women
You have to try not to mind read and just know that these are *her* demons, I'm super guilty of doing both of these!
"the fire won't get bigger unless you give it air... So shut your mouth!" gotta love old southern women
That's awesome. That one will stick with me for a while! Thanks!
My W has a lot of things to sort out in her life. I wish I could be a support more actively. But at this point I can only work to be strong myself and take care of my family as best I can.
I'm still going back & forth on what to do about the money.
Option 1: Go ahead and reduce the amount of money I put in her account so more can be used for getting out of debt and explain to her what I am doing and why. Whether or not she gets upset about it and accuses me of being controlling is a matter she will have to contend with. I know my motives are for the benefit of my family.
Option 2: Leave the money the way it is. Let her know that I heard her and it is obvious that having that money and using for whatever it is she is doing is very important to her. I leave it as is and let her know that I will figure some other way of getting the bills paid.
Option 2 seems the high road in some ways but it could also be passive-aggressive and I don't want to do something that builds up resentment in myself towards her.
My hope with option 2 would be that giving her the freedom to choose how to use the money would give her an opportunity to choose to be responsible rather than use the money for herself. I also realize the risk of her continuing to put herself first. I need to think to myself if I'm willing to let that happen and if its too much risk for the family.
I don't think DBing is about making yourself destitute or in an unstable financial situation in order to save your marriage. Would you want to continue in a marriage with someone whose values around spending and financial security were the opposite of yours? Would you feel safe in that? Do you want to support your values and the well-being of your kids?
This is from my DB Words of Wisdom file. Unfortuntely I didn't include the writers name.
The goal in an intimate relationship is to feel calm, centered and focused. The intimacy needs to be safe, supportive, respectful, nonpunitive and peaceful. You feel taken care of, wanted, unconditionally accepted and loved just for existing and being alive in a healthy intimate relationship. You feel part of something and not alone in such a relationship. You experience forgiving and being forgiven with little revenge or reminding of past offenses. You find yourself giving thanks for just being alive in this relationship. A healthy intimate relationship has a sense of directedness with plan and order. You experience being free to be who you are rather than who you think you need to be for the other. This relationship makes you free from the "paralysis of analysis" needing to analyze every minute detail of what goes on in it. An intimate relationship has its priorities in order, with people's feelings and process of the relationship coming before things and money. A healthy intimate relationship encourages your personal growth and supports your individuality. This relationship does not result in you or your relationship partner becoming emotionally, physically or intellectually dependent on one another. An intimate relationship encourages the spiritual growth of both relationship partners and makes room for God in the relationship as a partner and friend.
Thanks Labug, I don't plan on being destitute or allowing my family to go deeper into financial problems. I am simply trying to figure out the best way to proceed and allow my W the opportunity to take part. Quite honestly, I'll figure it out with or without her.
I like your "wisdom file" quote. At this point, I can only choose to offer these thing with no expectation of any of this being returned from my W. I cannot expect her to bring these things to our relationship in the state she is in. So with the desire to heal the M, I choose to try and bring these things because I want to and not because I expect a return.
Not sure how long I can do that. Sure I get tired and emotionally exhausted by being the only one in the R that does this, but for this I mean in a more intellectual way, how long does it makes sense to go this route before I acknowledge the R will not be healed and I need to pull away completely to move on with my life?
I'm approaching the 2 year mark and as of now, I choose to continue because I believe my W and my M are worth it. I still have the hope that a healthy M can exist between us and so I continue. This is a great view of what M should look like and one to keep in mind as I walk the path. Thank you!
Also, just got my copy of "No More Mr. Nice Guy" so I'll be digging into that right away.
"I'm approaching the 2 year mark and as of now, I choose to continue because I believe my W and my M are worth it. I still have the hope that a healthy M can exist between us and so I continue."
Two years is a long time CES! What signs are you receiving from your W that suggest that a "healthy M can exist" between the two of you?
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for trying to save the M but if after 2 years there is no forward progress, and as your signature block suggests, your W is not interested in having a discussion about the M, then what is it that keeps you hopeful?
Living in limbo for 2 years has got to be getting a little discouraging. What have you done lately that is different from what you have done in the past? Where are you headed now?
Do you have a set of short term goals that you have set for yourself? Something to strive for that helps you assess if you are making any progress?
It is a long time and it has had MANY discouraging days (and still does).
Why do I hope?
I still see how active and engaged my W is as a mother.
I believe that my W is actually hurting significantly from childhood trauma that is unresolved. For me to leave would only validate and reinforce negative feelings that are causing her struggles.
I promised to love her and commit to my M "until death". I meant it and that promise is my choice and not conditional on W's behavior
W has never taken off her wedding band.
W has never taken steps to actually leave
I have seen small efforts to be more kind to me and have general conversations - very few but a little more.
Even thought its been 20 months I have only really started the DB approach in December.
I have learned that I've relied way to much on my W and others to validate me and the growth to gain personal validation outside of others has given me strength to continue.
Even though its been very rough between W and M, its been better for our kids for us to be together.
Different stuff:
DB stuff - I stopped acting hurt & wounded
I do what I feel is right and do not wait or seek W's approval
I engage more with my kids at different levels than I have in the past.
I have surrounded myself with friends who support my direction to save my M and pray for me and W.
Goals - I've focused my goals on myself more than my W's behaviors:
Take action to improve finances for my family
Keep open in my communication to W regardless of what she shares
Be present in the home and don't "hide away" in other rooms.
Have conversations that are needed and stop looking for the "right time" to talk.
Stay focused in my prayer life for my W's healing and my own growth.
As a side note, I mentioned that W's was more down than usual yesterday. I think it may be related to the short talk we had about money, but can't be sure.
Today she called me at work and asked that I bring home a list of counselors that are in our insurance network and close to our house. She said she needs to get back into IC. I take this as a good sign as well and also a result of specific prayers I have been lifting up for her healing.
Its sometimes hard to explain and I can only speak for myself but as a Christian, I keep perspective. Moses & the Isrealites wandered for 40 years. Joseph spent years as a slave and in prison before becoming 2nd in command in Egypt. Life is eternal. In the scheme of things is 2 or 3 years realy that long? But hey, that's just me. We all have to decide for ourselves.
Wow, you have a strength and patience I admire CES. Wish I had it too.
Really great post, CES. Glad to see you have things in the proper perspective and I agree that your W deciding to seek C is a good sign.
I'll keep you and your family in my prayers!
what you wrote and your reasons for still trying after 2 yrs, really touched me. after 6 mos, i find myself doubting a bit, and i hope that i have your kind of strength down the road
your example is encouraging me to keep the faith. as you point out - you committed for better or worse, and this is the worse. wish my H felt the same way. i know i have until this point and will continue to do so, even though he has moved out
i wish you lots ofluck-and yes am really happy for you that your W even asked for the list of C's.
as michelle says in her book - make sure you note the tiny little successes and baby steps
zig
Thanks all for the encouraging words. Its not easy and doubt attacks me most days. If it were just me, I'd probably give in. But I love this woman and I don't want to be the guy that walked away just because it got tough.
jlove - Any strength or patience I have, I must credit to Christ. It is the principles of Christianity that serve as my foundation. The DB principles have really helped me put these more into action. I'm by NO MEANS great at it but it keeps me going.
2TP - Thanks for the prayers. I'll take all I can get. In the past week I've taken a very strong focus on prayer and gathered many around me to join me in these specifics. 2 weeks later, W is actually talking about seeing a counselor again. Its a first step that needs to continue for her own health.
Zig - thanks for stopping by the thread and your encouragement. You along with so many on this board have been a great deal of strength for me. I will certainly give thanks for this tiny step forward today.
The evening was typical. W is still in a visably bad mood. D even asked at dinner if she was OK. This is because she's hurting and my guess is her pride is hurt a bit just for asking about the counselors. I printed off the lists and left them by her purse. Before coming to bed I told her the info she wanted was there.
So a few new developments.
W tells me today that she's "thinking" of going on a trip for Spring break (starts 3/9). Just last week she had said she wasn't going anywhere. Now she wants to head to visit her foster parents who live about 4 hours north of where we use to live. She said she would "work" a couple days with her friend, visit my parents and go up to spend a few days with her foster parents. I just replied and said "OK, let me know what you decide to do.
I have no idea how she can afford this trip, especially after her fuss when I asked for help on the bills. Not sure about where you all are but gas is around $3.60 here and its an 8 hour drive back to our old place and 4 more to her FP's. That's a lot of money right there.
Also, the "t-shirt" has re-appeared and is hanging in our bathrom again. As a reminder, this is the t-shirt of the OM's drum corp. She put it away before her friend (OM's wife) got here and now that she's gone its back out again.
Between that and the picture in the collage, I'm feeling the desire again to address this. Not sure if that's best or not. I'm fine with working together for the kids and us living together. Frankly it give me more time. But if she is somehow continuing to cultivate her feelings for this guy in front of me in our home, then I may need to set some boundaries.
Also, as a side note, I noticed the OM's IM address is listed as a "recent chat". (yes snooping) That happened while her friend, the OM wife was in town so I didn't give it much concern. Too many pieces adding up right now even though its all still circumstantial.
OK, any 2x4s?
Ces - there are a few comments for you in
red font inside the quotation block below
So a few new developments.
W tells me today that she's "thinking" of going on a trip for Spring break (starts 3/9). Just last week she had said she wasn't going anywhere. Now she wants to head to visit her foster parents who live about 4 hours north of where we use to live. She said she would "work" a couple days with her friend, visit my parents and go up to spend a few days with her foster parents. I just replied and said "OK, let me know what you decide to do.
She seems to be in escape mode at the moment. Probably best that you didn't object. Let her do her thing.
I have no idea how she can afford this trip, especially after her fuss when I asked for help on the bills. Not sure about where you all are but gas is around $3.60 here and its an 8 hour drive back to our old place and 4 more to her FP's. That's a lot of money right there.
Didn't she get her own credit card? Reminds me of an old sitcom, I forget the name, but it had a character in it who is introduced to a check book for the first time and he goes on a shopping spree and his friend says where did you get the money and he says, who needs money, I have checks!
Also, the "t-shirt" has re-appeared and is hanging in our bathrom again. As a reminder, this is the t-shirt of the OM's drum corp. She put it away before her friend (OM's wife) got here and now that she's gone its back out again.
Between that and the picture in the collage, I'm feeling the desire again to address this. Not sure if that's best or not. I'm fine with working together for the kids and us living together. Frankly it give me more time. But if she is somehow continuing to cultivate her feelings for this guy in front of me in our home, then I may need to set some boundaries.
You need to detach some more here, CES. All that crap is just pulling you back into the emotional meat grinder. Do you best to ignore it. If you are sharing the bathroom, then maybe throw the tee shirt in the hamper every time you see it.
Also, as a side note, I noticed the OM's IM address is listed as a "recent chat". (yes snooping) That happened while her friend, the OM wife was in town so I didn't give it much concern. Too many pieces adding up right now even though its all still circumstantial.
Stop snooping! What does it ever get you except unanswered questions and heartache?
OK, any 2x4s?
Have you read the book, Love Must Be Tough by Dr James Dobson? You might want to check it out if you haven't done so already.
Hang in there!
I've always thought if my H "cheated" that would be it, done, el final, adios, amigo! But after being here for awhile I can't say that with 100% certainty. But what I think I've learned is that if "stepping out" is not a deal breaker, why snoop to find things that are hurtful.
Labug - I still feel like our M has hope. W is hiding a lot of things right now. Her spending, her schedule and her feelings towards OM, to name a few. It feels as if unless something draws her to face these truths there can be no forward movement. I struggle to know if I need to be the catalyst to help her face these things or allow God to work that in his own time.
Yes, snooping is my weakness. I am MUCH better than I use to be but it still happens on occasion. I don't address what I find. I simply file it away for reference or future use if needed.
2- She is definitely in escape mode and has been for a long time. Thus my struggle for what catalyst will help her face what she needs to face.
She does have her own cc and she's using it. If you remember, last month she put the statement in our bills to be paid but did not include the transaction sheet. This month she has not put it in at all and I'm guessing that's because she doesn't want me to know how much she has spent on that credit card. At this rate, she'll max it out in a few months and be stuck.
With the t-shirt, that approach seems a little passive-aggressive. I either ignore it or face it. Right now I am leaning towards facing it. To me this is a sign that she is even hiding things from her "best friend" about these feelings. Again, I feel like unless someone forces her to face what she is doing, it will continue. I know that's not very DB, but I'm not certain DB is the right approach 100% of the time.
I did read that Dobson book but it was very early after the bomb. I will pick it back up and look again with a frsh perspective. Thanks.
Given that I have avoided conflict for so long, maybe my 180 needs to be dealing with some of these things head on. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done with love & compassion, it absolutely needs to be. If I can't do this withoug being accusatory, then I won't do it. I'm taking time to process and was thinking of posting my approach here to see what people think.
I get why W would be attracted to OM (OK, not necessarily this guy, he's been described by others as a "sleezy used car salesman - but the concept). W has apparently struggled for years with our M without telling me. Given attention, kindness and friendship from an OM without the baggage of our isues has to be attractive. My thinking though is unless she is willing to let that go at some point, our M will never heal. That's just reality.
I'm willing to fight for my M and I need to decide if bringing this up will help or hurt. Initially it will definitely hurt, but is it a pain that will utlimately lead to healing?
She knows she's doing something inappropriate with OM- evidenced by the fact she consciencely decided to hide the shirt when her friend visited... Of there is nothing to hide between them, there would be nothing to hide.
It's majorly insulting that she's blatently putting him on display in front you. I like 2's idea of putting it in the trash everytime you see it!
Think long and hard before you confront her. Is it going to help or hurt your ultimate goal? Has your goal changed at all? In the same respect, I think you have every right to set some kind of boundary- after all, it is YOUR house too and you have the right to be comfortable with what goes on in your home. You wouldn't hesitate to speak up to a guest if they were doing something inappropriate in your home that was making the environment uncomfortable.... But this is something that effects your heart- you have to approach it more gently.
I think I just rambled thoughts instead of offering any solutions- sorry.
((ces))
Think long and hard before you confront her. Is it going to help or hurt your ultimate goal? Has your goal changed at all?
Thanks P, I don't see it as rambling at all. I am taking some time to consider the potential outcomes. My goal is to still restore/renew my M with W.
Since the bomb, when we have interacted (few times) I was certainly on the defensive about how she was acting and how I thought she should act. - I was coming from a hurting place and that obviously didn't work.
I did learn quickly to never argue with what she felt. Even without DB, I knew that was a mistake. We feel what we feel and it cannot be argued away.
Since DB stuff, my interactions have been very non-confrontational. But I can't see that its getting us anywhere. I go back to the basic successes that I've seen and posted before. But I can't honestly tell if its a result of the DB activities or not. In many ways it still feels like we're in the same place we were over a year ago.
So with that in mind, maybe addressing her feelings towards OM is the 180 to create movement. Her hiding activities seem to indicated conflict with those feelings. Maybe getting them in the open is worth a shot. I really need to put thought around how to approach that conversation and will post here before I decide to do anything.
I've been thinking a lot about whether or not to confront my W about what I see regarding the OM. I'm really feeling like the motive to NOT confront her is driven from fear of rejection more than taking the high road.
W is in denial about a lot of things. She's secretly spending too much money on her CC. She's holding feelings for the OM and hiding it from me and her friend who is OM's wife.
If she pursues this OM, it will only end in pain. She will break apart 2 families, force 4 kids to deal with divorce and hurt and damage what friendships she has left. All for this one sleezy guy who may be willing to leave his own family.
Is it wrong to remind her of this or is it love? I love her too much to want to see her walk that path. I know I can't choose for her and ultimately she has to decide what she wants. But as a friend, shouldn't I try and help her see the damage she'll inflict upon herself and others?
I've got a draft of what I want to say and am having a close friend review it. Will post later for feedback. I know up front it may not be seen as "DB approved" but it may be the 180 I need to do.
The more I think about doing this the more a heavy weight sets into my chest. But giving into that weight and not saying anything feels like I'm letting go of my integrity.
I know up front it may not be seen as "DB approved"
And why do you think this is true?
If it was DB approved don't you think that everyone would be doing it.
Do you think you are the first person to think this up?
Do you really think this is going to work?
My suggestion is to listen to what is DB approved. There is a reason that it is.
67,
What is the title of this thread again ????
Could you maybe define what that means to you ???
"Is it wrong to remind her of this or is it love? I love her too much to want to see her walk that path. I know I can't choose for her and ultimately she has to decide what she wants. But as a friend, shouldn't I try and help her see the damage she'll inflict upon herself and others?"
You may think of yourself as a friend but your W see's you as the H she wants to D. So why would she care what you have to say. Also, a friend wouldn't have the kind of vested interest in the outcome that you do and she knows this.
So if truth be told, this is really about you and your feelings. You need to acknowledge that and work from that premise instead of trying to portray yourself as the concerned friend, cause it ain't gonna fly with her!
"I've got a draft of what I want to say and am having a close friend review it. Will post later for feedback. I know up front it may not be seen as "DB approved" but it may be the 180 I need to do.
The more I think about doing this the more a heavy weight sets into my chest. But giving into that weight and not saying anything feels like I'm letting go of my integrity."
Why do you think there is a heavy weight setting into your chest?
You are trying to pin things down. I understand the desire to do this but can't you see that by doing this you will in essence be cementing things in place. Why would you want to do that?
My W has been having an EA/PA for months. I've never confronted her about it as in "admit it, you're having an A!". Instead I just acknowledged that I knew and that I was terribly hurt by it and then left it at that. Now she has to work on her issues cause there is not a damn thing I can do about it.
She is on calls with OM all the time. Very similar to having a tee shirt hanging around or a picture of the OM in a collage of other family pictures. The daily reminder is there.
This is why I have to detach emotionally from her otherwise I'd end up like..... well let me give this analogy to chew on for a bit.
Place a rat on your chest and put a cage with no bottom over the top of it and just let it set there. What do you think the rat will do?
This is what is happening to you as long as you allow yourself to be pulled into the emotional pain that she is causing you.
Post your letter here, lets take a look at it. If nothing else, you'll at least get your feeling down on paper and maybe that is all that you really need.
First of all, thank you! I need my thinking challenged and I realize this. Here are my thoughts:
Cadet: It’s not DB approved because accusing & blaming pushes the WAS further away. My intent is not to blame but to acknowledge her behaviors and feelings for the OM and state my feelings of having reminders of him in the house. (like what 2Tp said in his post)
Do you see this as the same as blaming?
To be honest, whether others have done this before or not didn’t even cross my mind. I’ve fallen into the trap of being too close to my own sitch to step back and think. Well, I at least I was able to stop and post here before I actually did anything.
Regarding what I want to accomplish with this action goes back to my thought that some type of catalyst is needed to move us in some direction. If she at least knows that I notice, she may actually have to think about how her actions impact others. I have no expectations that this will cause her to come running back to me. At this point I just want a reaction to cause a conversation.
Just talking to her about money this week caused her to spend a day in bed and ask to find a counselor. And all I asked her to do was think about having a conversation with me.
We have not had a R talk in months. Nothings going to change if this keeps up.
Mach: The more I look at my title the more I realize I’m confused. I started DB with the LRT. This was almost 18 months after the bomb. I saw some signs of a little more civility from W but very inconsistent. I still get lots of anger, resentment & bitterness thrown at me, which I don’t return.
Limbo land refers to the fact that our sitch has not really changed or progressed in 20 months. It seems obvious to me that what I am doing is not working so I need to try something different. The opposite of not talking about anything would be confronting issues (at least that is what is coming to mind right now).
I don’t think an LRT should be “limbo land” but that’s what my sitch has turned into. I’m trying to figure out different tactics to cause movement.
2TP: First, your “rat analogy” reminded me of 1984 from Orwell, and that part of the book freaked me out!
I agree that W will not see me as a friend in this conversation. My concern is that she has pushed away all her friends who have given her honest feedback about her actions. I feel like if I don’t do it, it may never get done. She’s already pushed me away but her own choice not to provide for herself keeps her in our house and dependent upon me.
The reason for the heavy weight is because I feel paralyzed on what I need to do and feel that if I don’t do something then I’m caving into fear.
I started reading the “No More Mr. Nice Guy” book. In looking at it, I certainly didn’t have the awful upbringing some guys did but I still have some major avoidance issues that don’t allow me to stand up for myself like I should.
The honest truth is I don’t want to talk to my W about this stuff. But I know this is not from a healthy place.
The book talks about how nice guys hide what they feel because they are afraid they will be rejected. I’ve felt this. And to act differently from that, I’m going to share with you what I wrote to a close friend who has been walking with me daily in this struggle. This is crap I hate about myself but here it goes....
=====e-mail to friend=====
every time I see myself saying these things to W, a list of all the mistakes I've made come rushing up in me and I feel like I deserve the treatment she's giving me…The sad truth is I'm scared to say these things but I can't put my finger on what it is I'm scared of.
Fear of having W mad at me (I should be use to that)?
Fear of W leaving (at this point it could be an improvement)?
Fear of messing up?
Fear of being wrong?
Fear of a message that I'm not worth the time & effort of someone really loving me?
These fears are a big part of where I was not emotionally available to support my W and help her feel loved. I’ve got to figure out a way to be different and part of that is standing up for myself.
How do I stand up for myself and at the same time keep going on the DB stuff. I feel like I’m using the DB practices to fall into my own comfort zone of conflict-avoidance.
What am I not seeing?????
Mach: The more I look at my title the more I realize I’m confused. I started DB with the LRT. This was almost 18 months after the bomb. I saw some signs of a little more civility from W but very inconsistent. I still get lots of anger, resentment & bitterness thrown at me, which I don’t return.
Limbo land refers to the fact that our sitch has not really changed or progressed in 20 months. It seems obvious to me that what I am doing is not working so I need to try something different. The opposite of not talking about anything would be confronting issues (at least that is what is coming to mind right now).
I don’t think an LRT should be “limbo land” but that’s what my sitch has turned into. I’m trying to figure out different tactics to cause movement.
Below is a link to what LRT really is.
I read a lot of James John's stuff early on, and the board really felt his loss when he left.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...55814#Post55814What I see, is that you do fairly well for a time with what you want. And then something happens to get you off track. It's like you take three steps forward, and then you turn around to see if she is following you.
You are doing this so that she can "see" that you are different, and in essence, you are showing her that you really aren't different...you just want your way.
Essentially, it is you that is keeping yourself stuck.
You also should take a look at the "tactics" that you are trying....
This should never be about tactics. I can tell you that a WAS can smell fake from three miles away. The things that you look at, and the things you change...HAVE to be for you, and very real to your core.
Please read the links....
Let me know what you think after that...
Thanks Mach. I'll look over it this weekend before I decide to do anything.
I agree that it is my thinking that is keeping me stuck. But my thinking has been not confronting things.
Fortunately (or not) I've never been one to rush into things so I am truly giving this thought on the best way to proceed.
It certainly hasn't escaped me that my discussion on money has prompted my W to ask about IC for herself. I don't want to ruin that by talking to her about OM and her putting up defenses that would stop her from IC.
Putting on my "happy face" and heading home now....
Thanks again.
Random stuff:
Last night I took my S to a bb awards function. I drove the car my W ususally drives. The gas light was on. Usually I would immediately go and fill up the tank for her but I decided not to this time. It was the last day of the paycheck and I would have needed to use a credit card to fill it up. It was a short drive to the function so it wsa no problem to get there and back. Then either my W or I could fill it up today since its payday.
W calls me as I'm leaving work to ask if the gas light was on last night when we went out. I said yes. She said she wasn't sure if she had enough to run her errands and then get gas or not. Told her I'm not sure as I don't normally let the tank run that low and didn't know where all she was going. Left it at that. Said it in a up beat matter-of-fact way (I think).
W then tells me she is going over to a friends house for the evening. This friend is a foster parent and her husband works night sometimes. They have 3 kids of their own, a 1 yr-old the are working to adopt and then they just got 2 foster kids under the age of 2. So W and D will end up visiting over there for most of the night to keep her company.
S is out playing with friends and I'm left in an empty house. I really need to GAL going. Of course this does give me time to read through the links Mach sent. How's that for a fun Friday evening! (not)
Also, spoke to my parents on the way home. Mom said W had called today and they talked for a while and W said how she and the kids were coming up for spring break. As I mentioned earlier. She had only said she was "thinking" of going to me but of course, she is going and already telling everyone else.
Its just so disrespectful and I'm tired of it right now. I also realize its attaching my moods to her actions and I'll get over it soon.
Qtip, Quick Taking It Personally
Always helps me.
^^^^^^^^^
Thanks...
When was the last time you went off and did something for yourself? Isn't it about time to create a little mystery?
I get together with a couple friends every Friday mornning for coffee before work. But to create mystery, its been a while. Its probably time to do something. Thanks for the reminder.
W & kids are leaving a week from today for Spring Break. The kids will get to see my parents so they'll like that.
I'll do some stuff while they're gone but I need to do more while W is here to see it.
Have you read No More Mr. Nice Guy or checked out the web site?
I see what you are saying regarding the letter. I have the same thoughts myself. I didnt send the letter I had prepared merely as a tactic. If you are truely detached why not send the letter, sometimes I think we need to do stuff simply for ourselves.
Hang in there. Post the letter your prepare
Thanks, BM, I just got that book earlier this week and am reading it. I definitely see similarities of how I have acted: serving & providing with unspoken expectations of return, guilt in satisfying my own needs, dishonesty in how I approach situations, the need for "peace" over communication. Makes me wonder why it takes so long in life to see these things for myself.
I have not had any conversation with W and am still unsure but leaning towards "not". But in the spirit of the NMMNG book, I want to do what I think is best and not what I think will please other people. Here's my draft. Input is greatly appreciated....
===========================================
W, I know we haven’t talked about our marriage really since we stopped counseling last fall and like you said, you needed this time to work on yourself.
I just want you to know that I still care about you and if there is a chance we can work on our marriage together, I want to try. I know you don’t feel love for me anymore and it may never happen. Even if it did, it would take a very long time to build up that emotional connection. My choices and actions have hurt you and damaged our marriage. I wish I could take it all back but at this point I can only learn from it and move forward.
I do need to ask you about something we’ve only touched on. I would appreciate knowing what your current feelings are towards OM. Here’s why I’m asking.
When we first moved, you spent a lot of time looking at his websites. Over a year later you had what appeared to be a fairly recent picture of the 2 of you. Recently you felt enough connection with OM that you put his picture in your frame, without his wife next to him. And its concerning that you put his drum corp t-shirt away while his wife was here and then pulled it back out now that she is gone.
With things as bad as they are between us I can understand you being attracted to someone else, but that doesn't make it right for either of us and I need to understand what you are feeling towards OM these days.
---At this point my plan is to stop and listen.
Other thoughts about this but not sure how to work into the conversation:
Seem she is hiding something from her friend.
Want to know if OM is aware of her feelings for him (I think he is)
I would like to not have to see daily reminders of OM in my house.
As long as she holds on to feeling for OM, there will be no change for us
Longer term she needs to cut all ties to OM for us to move forward but I know this has to be her choice and not forced by me.
I'm not necessarily advocating you send this letter but will provide feedback if for no other reason than to help you with some of your though processes.
===========================================
W, I know we haven’t talked about our marriage really since we stopped counseling last fall and like you said, you needed this time to work on yourself.
I just want you to know that I still care about you and if there is a chance we can work on our marriage together, I want to try. I know you don’t feel love for me anymore and it may never happen. Even if it did, it would take a very long time to build up that emotional connection. [color:#FF0000]<<<<--- this kind of commentary is like cementing thoughts that you should really be keeping open. Remember, "think as if" My choices and actions have hurt you and damaged our marriage. I wish I could take it all back but at this point I can only learn from it and move forward. <<<----- how about here say, If I could do it over again, there are things I would do differently...
I do need to ask you about something we’ve only touched on. I would appreciate knowing what your current feelings are towards OM. Here’s why I’m asking. <<<-------- this serves no purpose other than to satisfy your own curiosity and insecurity. Will this statement bring you and your W closer?
When we first moved, you spent a lot of time looking at his websites. Over a year later you had what appeared to be a fairly recent picture of the 2 of you. Recently you felt enough connection with OM that you put his picture in your frame, without his wife next to him. And its concerning that you put his drum corp t-shirt away while his wife was here and then pulled it back out now that she is gone. <<<------ this is the stuff that bothers you and may not bother her. So why ask her why? Just tell her it is offensive to you.
With things as bad as they are between us I can understand you being attracted to someone else, but that doesn't make it right for either of us and I need to understand what you are feeling towards OM these days. [/color] <<< ----- Stop this! You are in essence justifying her behavior. You deserve more than that!
---At this point my plan is to stop and listen.
Other thoughts about this but not sure how to work into the conversation:
Seem she is hiding something from her friend. Not your concern
Want to know if OM is aware of her feelings for him (I think he is) So what if he is?
I would like to not have to see daily reminders of OM in my house. Then tell her...
As long as she holds on to feeling for OM, there will be no change for us. This is true and so? What?
Longer term she needs to cut all ties to OM for us to move forward but I know this has to be her choice and not forced by me. This is true but it will be in her own time and place, not yours. nothing you say will likely get her to change course. she will have to do it on hr own.
Sounds good to me
Very honest and open.
I wrote a similar one to H, and had been waiting for the best opportunity to give it to him- but he found it while I was in FL- he's never said anything about it.
My only suggestion would be to sleep on it for a day or a week- re-read it a few times to make sure things are worded in a way that she will be receptive, not defensive. Once you put these feelings out there, it's hard to take them back.
Some others might disagree, but I believe in putting it all out there so at least I know that I've given them all the info with which to make their choice. The hardest part is not building up hope for a miracle turn around. I've been reminding myself that if I think of my sitch like a freight train (referencing mnky), the fact is: it takes A LOT of time and consistent 'pressure' to stop a train- then it takes even more time and careful planning to turn one around. Patience, honesty and consistency are the only 'pressure' that we can apply to our WAS.
2pt gave you just about the same suggestions I was going to give. 2pt went a little more in detail which is great! It also helps you reflect on your boundaries. This DB is really hard but you need to set boundaries to protect yourself (ie the pix of OM).
Thinking of you ces!
I get together with a couple friends every Friday mornning for coffee before work. But to create mystery, its been a while. Its probably time to do something. Thanks for the reminder.
W & kids are leaving a week from today for Spring Break. The kids will get to see my parents so they'll like that.
I'll do some stuff while they're gone but I need to do more while W is here to see it.
First of all, don't do it so W can see it. Do it for you so you can pull away from the sitch. If she sees it, well bully for her, but it's not about her, it's about you.
When I asked when was the last time you went out and did something for yourself, I meant something more like maybe take a little weekend trip - hiking, camping weekend at friends or family; that sort of stuff.
The other day to day stuff is important but sometimes you just need to get away for awhile. Oh and BTW have you joined a DivorceCare group yet? I would highly recommend it and it gives you smethhign to do one night a week for you, away from the house.
Have you ever taken a cruise? You can get a screaming last minute deal for a 3-5 day cruise. Now wouldn't that be something? Get a couple of buddies to join you and go have some fun.
Thanks all for the feedback.
2- Great points about not putting the assumptions out there for her. Thanks.
Your last point about her time makes a lot of sense. Personally, I hate it, but its still the truth. Two close friends of mine have both encouraged me to confront my W about this. Both had previously cheated on their wives but were able to save their marriages. I reminded both of them that it was not their wives confronting them that changed them but their own conscious and hearts that led them to confess and work to change.
I'd love to make it happen myself but it goes back to consistent change in myself for me. (why it works this way, I don't know but it just does...) Purg - You put this very clearly above. Thank you for the reminder!
Vero- I agree about the boundaries. I do want to strip back the message and maybe just focus on that.
2- A cruise sounds great. We are actually saving up now because W's family is planning one for Christmas 2013. (I'm doing the "as if" I'm still included)
I did invite a buddy to come visit me while family is out of town. Won't work out but I'm planning a weekend trip to go see him within the next couple months. When I go, I'm getting my first (and probably only) tattoo.
One of my coffee buddie's mentioned a family cabin a while back so maybe I can encourage him to let us borrow it and do a father/son weekend.
I'm taking D and a friend or 2 of hers to this awesome playground/park tomorrow after church. W is watching a friend's kids for the afternoon and S has homework so it will be some good father/daughter time.
Right now I'm very focused on repairing the financial mess we're in so I'm pretty reluctant to spend much money on myself too much.
I've looked around a little for a divorce/care group but haven't found one yet. I'll keep looking.
Thanks much for all the feedback.
Journal stuff:
Another weekend of kid's friends spending the night. I'm very thankful our kids' friends enjoy coming and staying at our place.
S & D had their last drum performance today so it was a full day with the whole family. Did the drum show, S bball game, dinner out and the Lorax movie. Decent day. Fun with the kids and it seems to me they get a little comfort when we all do things together, especially my D.
Before the drum show, D had a b-day party to go to and had a minor meltdown getting ready. No real reason. W actually talked to me about it as stood in the bathroom getting ready. W things D is in the early stages of puberty because she said she can almost track when D is going to be more emotional.
W also talked about how D is more of a "follower" here and how she was a "leader" in our former home. This was because D chooses to dress more in jeans & t-shirts than cute girl clothes. To me W basically turned the converstation into how D would be so much better if we were still in our old home and she had her old friends and old activities to do.
I just listened. What I wanted to say is our D can still be strong and staying in a comfort zone your whole life won't prepare anyone for the changes that will absolutely come like college, moving out, new jobs, etc. etc.
I just listened and did not try to argue.
Also we drove separate to the drum show because W picked up D from bday party and S and I went straight there and then had to take off for his bball game.
Brief and odd 180 took place. After drum show, the group had pictures taken. W told me to take order forms and check over to the booth to pay for the pics.(she's an order giver, rarely "asks" for anything and I've typically always jumped to show my devotion or love or whatever...)
Instead of doing that I handed it all back to her and said, I need to get S to his game so you'll need to take care of this. I said goodbye to some friends who was there as well as D & W. As I said goodbye to W it honestly looked like she was about to lean over to give me a kiss like the old days but caught herself. As I said, it was very brief and I could have imagined it.
Also told W that we may want to drive separate tomorrow because I'm taking the kids to bible class as well as church. We'll see how the morning goes.
"Brief and odd 180 took place. After drum show, the group had pictures taken. W told me to take order forms and check over to the booth to pay for the pics.(she's an order giver, rarely "asks" for anything and I've typically always jumped to show my devotion or love or whatever...)
Instead of doing that I handed it all back to her and said, I need to get S to his game so you'll need to take care of this. I said goodbye to some friends who was there as well as D & W. As I said goodbye to W it honestly looked like she was about to lean over to give me a kiss like the old days but caught herself. As I said, it was very brief and I could have imagined it."
Good for you taking your b@lls back!
I have a friend who's W is the most demanding woman I have ever seen. Almost militant! She orders her H around all the time.
One day at a soccer game his son and mine were playing in, him and his W had just walked up to watch the game already in progress and his W orders him to leave the game to go check on their daughter at the playground.
He paused for a second and then said, "No, I think I'll stay and watch the game. Maybe you should go." I was so proud of him because there were a bunch of people standing around and heard every word of that conversation.
Sometimes, CES you just have to put your foot down and take back your b@lls!
Sometimes, CES you just have to put your foot down and take back your b@lls!
I completely agree. The reality is though that I've been the "nice guy" for so long, its very difficult for me to do as I hate to upset people. I'm digging into why this is and its getting a little bit better.
Earlier today, W asked for some extra money to help get S some jeans while they are out of town (lower sales tax in the other state). I reminded her that this was the paycheck that I had no extra money and would end up having to use a credit card for some basic things as it was. She just king of mubled "oh yeah" and didn't say anything else.
Just a bit ago, I got back from doing the grocery shopping. She asked if I had put gas in the car. I just said "no" and left it at that and went about my business.
And to clarify, I have no issue getting my S clothes he needs. But he can wait 2 weeks so I don't have to put it on credit cards.... The boy is growing fast. 7th grade and starting to wear my shoes already....
Good for you. Woman always like men that stand up to them. It is definitely a turn on.
I thought 2tp edits were spot on. Sometimes after I write letters like that I just try to incorporate some of those thoughts into casual conversation without making a big R talk. Just something to think about
Wow. Just finally catching up. There is a lot going on in your head, Ces!
I'm really glad you've been able to set some boundaries and stand up for them. Good for you!
I see the t-shirt as a boundary issue and something you have to do to take care of yourself. It is worth mentioning to your W.
However, I agreed with everything 2TP said. I think you can probably boil it down to two sentences. You would do better not to expect her to explain anything. That sounds like a dangerous path. I think something more along the lines of:
I find you keeping OM's t-shirt in the bathroom offensive. I don't think we need to talk about why. I have limits. I don't want to see it there any more.
That is 4 sentences. I'm not good at brevity. :P
Maybe take the shirt out of the bathroom first, so that rather than requiring her to consider whether to take action, she has to go against your wishes to put it back there.
Also, if you are going to set the boundary, you have to be prepared to do something if she crosses it.
I'm not really very good at DBing, so don't take my advice. However, if it were me and she brought the t-shirt back, ignoring my concerns about the EA, I would be more direct with her. I would tell her that I have ample reason (don't be specific) to believe you are having an inappropriate relationship with OM. I am also concerned about the damage this can do to OMs family. If you are going to flout my concerns, I will feel compelled to share them with OMs wife so that she can attempt to get a handle on her marriage. I would then hand her the shirt.
Thanks AT- Little steps forward for me. And that's all I can ultimately impact is myself, right? My head knows this. Its that crazy "heart" part of living that can get me distracted sometimes.
The funny thing is, I truly believe that it will utlimately be the strenght of my "heart" to love unconditionally that will move me forward far better than my cold logic.
Hope you have a great week! Keep up with the cooking! My S13 is starting to take an interest in cooking. He made us friend rice for dinner last night and it was really good. W walked him through the recipe but he did all the work.
What I see, is that you do fairly well for a time with what you want. And then something happens to get you off track. It's like you take three steps forward, and then you turn around to see if she is following you.
You are doing this so that she can "see" that you are different, and in essence, you are showing her that you really aren't different...you just want your way.
Essentially, it is you that is keeping yourself stuck.
You also should take a look at the "tactics" that you are trying....
This should never be about tactics. I can tell you that a WAS can smell fake from three miles away. The things that you look at, and the things you change...HAVE to be for you, and very real to your core.
Please read the links....
Let me know what you think after that..
Mach- I spent some time going through the links you provided. Thanks. Here's where I'm at today.
I don't think a full confrontation about OM is the way to go. The small pieces of hope I've seen have come at my detachment and acting more positive.
I do see my W struggling with something. I can only imagine she is torn between many emotions and probably more than I even understand.
I still struggle with the need for what appear to be healthy boundaries for myself. The picture of the OM and this shirt my W felt the need to hide during the OM's wife's visit are boundary issues in my mind still.
I've taken the high road on this for a while and I can see where I'm "looking back" waiting for her to respond the way I want her to. I do have to stop this behavior of mine. My success is that I'm able to see it better now and can make a change. Its a slow process, but I'm a slow learner.
I forget that although its been 20 months, I've only been DB'ing for a little over 2. Some pieces I've started earlier through other learning but the majority is still fresh.
So any suggestions on splitting about the OM confrontation from the boundary discussion I still feel the need to address?
W leaves this Saturday with the kids for Spring Break. I'll have a week to myself. (which I'm kind of looking forward to). So...
1) From the various posts, its sounds like I need to focus on the boundary topic and set aside any OM confrontation.
2) Any suggestions about how to do this or does 2TP's stripped down of my thoughts cover that pretty well?
Thanks again. I truly hope to get to a mental state where I can be more assistance to others around here soon. Encouragement I can pretty much do. Its the insights & guidance stuff that I'm still feeling pretty unqualified for at the moment.
Key word for the week: detach.....
Had a good GAL activity yesterday afternoon. Took D10 & a friend to a huge park near our home. It has a massive playground and they played for about an hour & a half. Good bonding time with my D10 especially in a fun environment.
Almost didn't go. I told D10 she could call a friend after we got home from church to go with her. She had to call 3 different friends before one could go.
W made a point about planning earlier and calling sooner so people have more notice to plan. OK, good point. Of course she continued to make this point 3 or 4 times in the span of 5 minutes. I ignored it. I'm good at that. Not so sure how my body language works but I'm trying to be more aware of that.
Really trying to pick my battles wisely. Money issues, OM reminders, W taking travel we can't afford.... I know I can't address everything at once so feel stalled not knowing what to do. Also feel like this is an excuse and I need to get around it.
I e-mailed W today the financial analysis that I received from my consultation last week. She rarely responds to me via e-mail so it will be interesting to see if she asks me about it tonight.
So detaching....
Money issues - not sure how to detach here if W is giving me bills to pay that she needs to take responsibility for. That one will need to come up this week. She wrote in 2 bills that she wants paid - one for her make-up with a note that says "pay asap" but she put it in last minute and I don't have the money to pay it. 2nd was a note about her credit card bill. She wil not show me the bill or what she's used it for. not sure if she expects me to pay it or just wrote it in our payment log for reference. I do have to clarify that so there are no assumptions about who is paying what.
OM - Still so confused on this one. My gut says say something about the shirt & picture and move on. But that will ultimately end in OM defensiveness. Not sure it gets me to the goal of reconciliation.
Travel - Almost certain W does not have the money to go on another trip and will result in her putting a lot of the expense on her own CC. Its her own CC so do I just let her max out her own card? I'm thinking "yes" . Having the conversation about the bills above will also remind her that she is responsible for her debt.
just need to do something to get over the anxious feeling of doing nothing.
"W made a point about planning earlier and calling sooner so people have more notice to plan. OK, good point. Of course she continued to make this point 3 or 4 times in the span of 5 minutes. I ignored it. I'm good at that. Not so sure how my body language works but I'm trying to be more aware of that."
My DB side woulda said, "you're right! Good point!"
Good GAL w ur D
As far as separating the OW and boundary talks, I think 2TP laid out a good game plan. In Essenes, they *are* two different and equally important topics, try just happen to intersect at many points in your sitch. I think the priority one needs to be the boundary talk. If done right, this one will help make you more comfortable in your own home. Of course, it could lead directly into a talk about OM when she accuses you of just not liking him.... You'll need to be prepared to deflect and not get emgaged in her OM defense and stay focused on the singular topic of boundaries.
I have no clue how to approach the $$ talks, but I do think that she needs to be entirely responsible for *her* CC. Somehow, you need to let her know this expectation before she leaves, it would be a shock (and definitely) a fight if you bring it up when she gets home, after she's run it all up assuming that you'll pay it.
You're a great dad and I'm sure D loved her time with you.
It was a very fun day with D10. Thursday I'm taking S13 to a museum exhibit called "The Art of War". Its a bunch of ancient weapons and armor that S will enjoy seeing.
Purg - I agree on the money. didn't want to ignore it only to have the bills not paid on time. When I got home, said the following;
Me: Hey, noticed "friend" needs paid for the make up. We don't have it now but I can cover it next pay.
W: OK, I'll let "friend" know.
M: Also, I noticed you had written in your CC needed paid but I didn't see the statement.
W: Yeah, I've got that. I'll give you the cash for it if you can send the payment in.
Me: Ok, thanks.
And that was it. Very glad that she initiated the fact that she would pay for it. Probably a lot to do with she doesn't want me seeing how much she's put on it.
Still not sure what bringing up the t-shirt & picture will accomplish. May wait until they get back to deal with that one. Also, she's working on our tax return and I don't want to create a sitch where she's holding out on me for the return. I want to take advantage of the opportunity to work together on how we use the return.
I'd rather seek the opportunity to talk and work together than start a fight right before she leaves and will be around OM.
What if the t-shirt just happened to get ruined in the wash while she's gone? Or perhaps you thought it was just another towel (since she uses it like one) and you cleaned your engine with it, then you had to bleach it to get the grease out of it.... Oops!
Not a bad idea, purg. I also considered opening up the picture frame and putting the words a$$hole on the back of OM's picture. Only I would know it was there and it would make me smile every time I passed it.
I know you're kidding around, but I really think you want to steer clear of passive-aggressive behaviors.
What you accomplish by drawing a line in the sand about the shirt is setting a boundary and having it respected. I don't think it's best for you to find out exactly what her feelings are for OM. Like 2TP said, you don't want to cement those thoughts.
Getting the shirt out of the bathroom does not get OM out of her life (or your life), but it does show her that you are not willing to pretend that nothing is going on and you are not willing to be disrespected in that way in your home.
Keep to 2TP's talking points. Say very little. Ask nothing. Get rid of the shirt, make your expectations clear, and leave it at that.
Maybe... maybe that will actually be a turn-on to your wife, anyhow. Maybe she needs you to man up a little bit.
I may be over-eager because I wish I had an equally attractive opportunity to throw cold water on my W's EA. If she goes back to texting him constantly when we are around each other, I'll say something, but for now, I'm just putting it out of my mind.
very good points AT, and yes, just joking about both of those things. I have no interest in the passive-aggressive stuff. If I decide to do something about it, I will definitely speak directly to W about it.
I do not want to do it right before she goes out of town though. W will be back in our former town at least part of the week and will be around OM at least some. I don't want her leaving town mad at me and making him look even more ideal.
Maybe I'm wrong and it does need to be brought up before she leaves. I wish I knew the answer to this but I honestly don't.
Soooo, I'm still deciding what I want to do about the t-shirt & pic. I'm drawing this out and its ridiculous that I've not made a decisio in my own opinion.
Here are some "things" that have happened in the past few days that I feel may be helpful direction for me.
1) Encouragement from close friends here and nearby about focusing my comments on the boundary issues and leaving out the OM stuff.
2) Lessons on forgiveness and acceptance
3) Reading a book where this week's topics have been the following:
-facing fears
-being honest with my feelings and living a life of
integrity
-choosing for me and what I feel is right rather than asking
for a "committee" consensus
-setting boundaries for myself and being open about them to
others.
I feel I need to set a clear boundary and have the conversation. It may go the way I want and it may not. But to say nothing seems to be giving away my own boundaries and not being true to myself. And that's not healthy for me, nor is it the "high road" if I resent that fact that these items remain in my house.
wish me luck...
Luck!
How about posting here what your language will be in stating your boundary.
I always have the urge to say toooooooo much.
me too bug! Thnaks! 2 gave some good edits to me earlier in the post so I'll work from there and post a little later (gotta get some work done now!)
Also wanting to try out a new Al Anon group this evening and plan on letting my W know about it since I'll be leaving the house around 6:30 to attend.
Ces - maybe take a lesson from my recent effort to engage my W on a challenging topic. Here is the relevant piece from my thread...
This afternoon, W and I were eating a late lunch and this is where I chose to engage her. I told her that I had been doing some thinking about how we communicate with each other and how when she is not clear in what she needs or wants, then I go into automatic fixit/control mode and I think this is where we sometimes get sidetracked.
I gave her the two examples...
So I told her that for me to manage my control/fixit behaviors I needed her help and rather than leave me guessing as to what she wants or needs, simply tell me and if I can do it or make adjustments to my schedule, I will. And if I can't I will let her now that as well.
She was surprisingly open to this line of commentary and said she would from now on....
See if maybe you can apply this approach to the issue of the tee shirt and picture.
Something along the lines of
"W, I need your help with something that has been bothering me. When I see the tee shirt in the bathroom and the picture of the OM in the collage hanging on the wall, it really upsets me and causes me to be anxious and (insert whatever other emotion you tend to experience). So I am hoping you'll understand my feelings here and consider removing those constant reminders that are so upsetting to me."It is not being aggressively confrontational and you are telling her how you feel and what you want. Give it some time to sink in and I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't take steps to address. It may not be immediate but I'd be surprised if she didn't do something to address your stated concern.
Hope this is helpful.
How about this...
W, I noticed something and I'd like to talk to you about it. I noticed that while BFF was here, the drum t-shirt you keep in the bathroom got put away and then it came back out after BFF left.
Not sure why you felt the need to put it away while BFF was here but I would appreciate the same consideration. Between the t-shirt and OM's picture in the collage, it feels disrespectful and inconsiderate to me to have these things out where I have to see them every day.
I would appreciate you putting these things away so they are not out in the open in our house.
I tried to keep this short and too the point. Other versions got very wordy and definitely had undertones of "blame" that I tried to take out. Thanks for the feedback.
Fixed it for you....
How about this...
W, got a minute?I noticed something and I'd like to talk to you about it. I noticed that while BFF was here, the drum t-shirt you keep in the bathroom got put away and then it came back out after BFF left. <<<------ you are baiting her into a defensive reaction with this comment. It may be true but is will not go well.
Not sure why you felt the need to put it away while BFF was here but I would appreciate the same consideration. The tee shirt and the photo in the collage really bother me. Between the t-shirt and OM's picture in the collage, it feels disrespectful and inconsiderate to me to have these things out where I have to see them every day.
I would appreciate you putting these things away so they are not out in the open in our house.
I tried to keep this short and too the point. Other versions got very wordy and definitely had undertones of "blame" that I tried to take out. Thanks for the feedback.
A boundary usually has a consequence attached but that may not be where you're going with this.
If she ignores your request, where to do you go from there?
2- You're right she may take it as baiting but the t-shirt & picture have been around for a while now (the t-shirt has been around since fall) so I was thinking that statement about her friend was giving context to why I am bringing this up now rather than earlier. Even if I don't say it, the topic is likely to come up and I'd be saying this to explain anyway.
Bug - Not sure what the consequence would be. I feel no need to take these things and throw them away. That seems a little immature and petty to me. The main thing to me is that she realizes I notice these things and she hears how it makes me feel. She can always get more things if I throw this stuff away.
Do you have any suggestions of conseqences?
No, and I'm not suggesting that you throw them away. As stated here this is a dog without teeth. I guess you need to be clear on what you want to accomplish with bringing this up.
Do you want a discussion?
Do you want the bothersome objects to go away?
CES, I think 2TP whittled down your convo very well. Say more with less. You really don't have to justify why you are bringing it up now.
If there is a consequence for crossing the line, you don't have to tell her now what it is.
If I saw the shirt in the bathroom again... I'd probably go to OM's W and say something. But that's me.
Maybe you should replace the t-shirt. My wife uses one of these for her hair:
http://www.turbietwist.com/
AT, just curious as to why he wouldn't want to state a consequence (if there is one) now?
Love this thread.
Ces-please tell me what book you were reading with those topics covered this week? Sounds like the VERY thing I need. Decision by committee...wow! That is my life.
Good luck with conversation. I like the whittled down remarks they gave you.
FYI...I must admit that I use a tshirt on my hair as well because I have curls and towels are bad for curls....but I have a pile of all cotton tshirts under my bathroom sink. You could just donate some of your undershirts????
Good luck my friend!
The book is No More Mr. Nice Guy. I don't know if there is a woman-centered equivalent. I think women living with a "nice guy" ought to read the book to understand them better.
labug - I'm not saying she shouldn't lay down a consequence, but that I don't think you have to state the consequence at this time. Have to run - can't complete the thought. Sorry!
AT's correct on the book. It is very much geared towards men but I also see similarities from my W's history regarding unmet needs/protection as a child. But as we all know, I can only look at this for myself and not the WAS (i repeat this often to myself)
AT - She actually has one of those and that's what I see her use. I maybe have seen her use the t-shirt once or twice in the months its been around. It mostly just hangs in the bathroom.
I've come to the conclusion that there is absolutely no perfect way to deliver this message. Its going to be messy. What I want to accomplish is for me to express my own concern and feelings about these items being in my house and that I want them out of my sight. My boundary issue is that I deserve some level of respect and consideration in my own home.
Here's the rub. W may not care if I get respect or consideration and she may prefer to keep both items where they are. So if I don't put some consequences around this am I undermining my own objective of setting boundaries?
Not sure what I'm willing to do if she refused to remove them. The first thing that comes to mind is suggest we call her friend and ask what she thinks about these items, and even bring up the picture I found back in October if needed. That would be extremely harsh in my opinion but also an outside possibility. It could very well end her friendship and potentially open a door with OM if it creates conflict in that marriage.
I'm really twisting myself in knots over how to handle this. I'm mapping right along with the "Nice Guy" syndrome on how I'm handling this and really feel I just need to get it out there and get it overwith and know that whatever happens, I'll be able to handle it (Brooklyn, if you're reading this, that last statement is directly from the book too!)
"I've come to the conclusion that there is absolutely no perfect way to deliver this message. Its going to be messy. What I want to accomplish is for me to express my own concern and feelings about these items being in my house and that I want them out of my sight. My boundary issue is that I deserve some level of respect and consideration in my own home.
Here's the rub. W may not care if I get respect or consideration and she may prefer to keep both items where they are. So if I don't put some consequences around this am I undermining my own objective of setting boundaries?"
CES - here is what I don't get. Ask for what you want - removal of the offensive items. Plain and simple. No need right now to give her an ultimatum or dare her to cross a boundary. Just tell her what you want and why then see what happens. She may resist at first but don't harp on it. Let her think about it and see what develops.
Once you start establishing boundaries you had damn well better be ready to enforce that boundary. Cause if you aren't and with you two still living together it can get real sticky, real fast. Do you understand what I am saying.
Test and probe... ask for what you want... watch for movement.
I agree with 2, that's what I was trying to get across about what you wanted to get from the conversation. Without a consequence it's a request not a boundary.
For some reason I feel like I need to clarify why I'm asking for her to do this. As I typed that it dawned on me (yes I'm slow) that my feelings are the reason and not her behaviors.
Is that what you all were trying to get through to me that I've been so slow to grasp????
So,
W, I want to let you know that having to see OM's t-shirt and his picture in my house every day feels very disrespectful and inconsiderate and I would like you to put them somewhere where I don't have to see them.
No consequences at this time. If I'm questioned about the "and if I don't want to" my follow up would be to suggest we call OM's wife and see if she has any concerns about these items that have been around our house. OR I will take them down and put them in her room where I don't have to look at them. I'm not one for destroying other's things (although I did empty an entire bottle of vodka she'd brought home once but that's another story....)
Hi CES, you're getting closer. You're talking about your feelings but you're calling them disrespectful and inconsiderate. Those are your assumptions about her motivation, not your feelings. What I think you mean is "I feel disrespected when I see these reminders of OM in my home." Now, I think you need to be more concrete in what you're asking for.
Why wait for her to do something with these? Do you think she's going to replace the photo or put up an argument about it? How about, "I'm going to put our family Halloween picture in the collage frame instead of OM's, and I'd like you to put away the t-shirt of his in the bathroom."
If she says no, at least you know where you stand with her. She hears how she's impacting you and she chooses not to change it. But I think she'll say that's ok and now you've got what you need.
Then, now that she knows how you feel about the shirt, plan on sticking it in the cabinet or drawer next time you notice it back on the hook.
I'd give her the photo to put somewhere.
That was good insight on the feelings versus the behaviors. I learned what people do is just about them. It prompts you to have a thought interpreting your observation, and then your feelings come from your thought. If you thought something different, your feelings would be different. It's so complicated.
2 - As a buddy of mine once said "I'm kinda purdy but I ain't too bright..." These are behaviors and paradigms that have lived with me for a long time. I know they're not helpful but its a slow process to recognize them and know how to break the chain of behavior.
Advina- thanks much for adding clarity. Your wording helps to better put it in the framework of my feelings vs. her motives. Little by little this will sink in with me.
The frame is hers. I think it would be seen as controlling if I selected the picture to replace this guy.
She'll be gone starting Friday so I'll have plenty of time to put the shirt away somewhere if she doesn't. Also, I guess I could even replace the picture if I wanted to. I'd certainly have time. There is this picture I love of my D when she was around 2 and she's got her first skinned knee. She's pulling up her pant leg to show it and she just looks so pathetic its cute.
But that's getting the cart before the horse. W needs a little time to decide what she wants to do and I need to tell her how I feel.
Also, went to my 2nd Al Anon meeting tonight. Tried a different place and this group had more men which seemed a little more comfortable for me. The topic was the reality that we have to express our needs to have them met rather than assuming people just know them. (time appropriate, I think YES).
I told W I was going out but didn't tell her where. When I got home a bit ago I let her know that I went to a support group meeting that my IC had recommended. She asked me in a rather curt voice what it was for. Then the kids came back into the room and I told her I'd talk to her later.
I'm exhausted tonight. Getting ready for bed. Thanks to all for your patience in helping me process what I'm doing and why and how and (and then repeat, second guess, go through it again, blah blah blah blah blah).....
ces, you are really making great strides. We all have difficulty with these new behaviors and thought patterns.
It's like creating a whole new person.
ces, you are really making great strides. We all have difficulty with these new behaviors and thought patterns.
It's like creating a whole new person.
Thanks labug, and the weird thing is I'm curiously excited about that prospect. I've been feeling a need to change things about me for a while and have really struggled to put my finger on what it is and how to do it.
The al anon meeting tonight was helpful to hear people say things that better articulated my own feelings than I could put them myself.
Also, the "No More Mr. Nice Guy" is forcing me to look at my own paragigms for what they really are rather than what I've told myself the are. Its kind of ugly but this process is helpful to let me see the bad stuff about myself and accept it for changing rather than beating myself up about it. I've done A LOT of that in my past and I can honestly say it doesn't work...
Ces maybe im wrong but I would not tell her about your groups or counseling sessions. Those are for you. It is none of her business. She is no longer privy to your schedule.
Me, too. I just had a very similar talk with my IC yesterday about how far I've come in the last year and dhow much better equipped I am for life.
I sabotaged myself for years and had a defeatist attitude because I didn't deserve better.
It is fun when you start to see the new stuff pay off by changing your life.
It was a slap in the face to read through some things and realize that I honestly believed my needs were not worthy of being met and I could accomplish more by being "nice" and accommodating every one else.
Also, before coming to bed, I went back up stairs and told my W about the support group. Here's what I told her:
Me: Its called Al Anon and I didn't want to go at first because it doesn't apply to my situation.
W: I know, its for people who are in families of alcoholics.
Me: And I know that is not my situation. But my IC encouraged me to try it. The meeting was very much about me and how I deal with life and how I can do things to live better. I didn't talk about your or our M.
W: Ok.
Me: just wanted you to know where I was and where I'll probably be going on Tuesday nights for a while. Good night....
She mumbled her usual "good night" and I came downstairs. I could tell she seemed upset. Her lips were pursed and she was focusing on the laptop and not me.
I've mentioned before that W's parents were both alcoholics. I tried to emphasize that I know she is not and that this is to help me. Not sure if she believes that or not but that is up to her.
Not to put too fine a point on it but it's a fellowship for friends and family of problem drinkers, and you get to define problem.
You are absolutely right tho that it doesn't matter what she thinks, Alanon is not about the drinker.
Hey CES, why do you feel compelled to tell your W where you are going? Part of GAL (and support groups are included) is doing things for you and also to create a little mystery. So why show your hand to your W? It's not like you need her permission, right?
Maybe next time simply say: "W, I'm going out for a while." or "I've got plans tonight and won't be available."
Of course, you can't un-ring the bell but think about that for the future.
Also, you shouldn't feel bad about this. I possess many of the same habits that you do. I am often an open book to my W as it pertains to what I'm doing, what I'm thinking, etc. However, I am working on that and believe that I am much better than I was.
And I'm not talking about being dishonest. Just recognize that there isn't a need to tell her EVERYTHING. Leave her guessing and you will see that that will draw her in.
sue makes a good point. i don't exactly lie to H (well.. i did about playing hookely.. you got me there) but i just omit information. i only give him answers to what he's asking and try not to volunteer too much info otherwise. H doesn't need to hear what i'm doing for support and how i'm changing.. he just needs to see it.
as for your t-shirt dilemma.. funny.. i had a similar problem. H had been storing a bike for his "friend" since she moved out of town in november. 1 don't see it often as it's in the parking garage.. but whenever i saw it, it would upset me because i felt so disrespected.
i sent H an email asking him to please remove the bicycle that didn't belong to us because i didn't want it there anymore. he never responded but, that bike was moved the next time he was there. i never brought it up after the email and neither one of us has mentioned it since. i didn't give a reason or how i felt, just simply that i did not want it there anymore.
2 - I wanted my W to know what I am doing in this situation. What I don't want is her thinking I'm off with another woman as part of my GAL. Also, it appears that when I show that I am taking steps towards working on myself, W will respond with some increased level of engagment at least for a while. When I said I was going out, the response was "fine". When I said it was a support group, she started asking more detailed questions. I prefer the more involved response. If its truly just GAL stuff, then I will certainly keep it more vague. Planning a weekend getaway to see a friend in the next few months. I won't give W any details except for when I'll be gone.
It also seems to me that making her aware of where I am working on myself creates some level of awareness in her that I am moving forward and she is not addressing her issues. This is not the intent of my actions, but its not a bad thing either. No expectations, just me doing what I need to do for me.
Same thing happened when I brought up the money conversation last weekend. Initial reaction was bad but then she re-engaged and asked for a list of ICs.
This morning, W responded to an e-mail I sent earlier in the week with the analysis from my financial review. A door to additional conversations was opened.
BF - Thanks. More encouragement to address the shirt & picture.
2 - I wanted my W to know what I am doing in this situation. What I don't want is her thinking I'm off with another woman as part of my GAL. Also, it appears that when I show that I am taking steps towards working on myself, W will respond with some increased level of engagment at least for a while. When I said I was going out, the response was "fine". When I said it was a support group, she started asking more detailed questions. I prefer the more involved response. If its truly just GAL stuff, then I will certainly keep it more vague. Planning a weekend getaway to see a friend in the next few months. I won't give W any details except for when I'll be gone.
No worries, CES. You've got to do what works for your particular sitch. And if what you are doing works, then keep at it.
My only other comment here would be that the "mystery" created when you are out in GAL land can be interpreted in any number of ways. If you aren't out GAL'ng with another woman, why should it matter if your W thinks you are? Isn't that what the mystery is supposed to be about?
I mean how is it different doing something for yourself (i.e. al anon) and telling her about it as opposed to doing something for yourself (i.e. long weekend with a friend) and not telling her about it? Isn't she going to be drawing her own conclusions regardless?
It also seems to me that making her aware of where I am working on myself creates some level of awareness in her that I am moving forward and she is not addressing her issues. This is not the intent of my actions, but its not a bad thing either. No expectations, just me doing what I need to do for me.
Same thing happened when I brought up the money conversation last weekend. Initial reaction was bad but then she re-engaged and asked for a list of ICs.
Again, do what works, and your approach seems to be working. so keep doing it.
I hate trial & error.....just sayin' (but its reality and that's where I live)
makes me think of my mysterious socks.
if H asked me point blank whether i was seeing someone or who i was going out with, i will not lie. but if he doesn't ask, i don't say anything. i know the truth. if H really wants to know.. he'll ask.
when i came home that night (when i was supposed to be working), H ended up txting me afterwards asking where i was going. most of the time he kind of skitters around the issue saying stuff like.. have fun wherever you're going.. but that night he asked and i answered truthfully.. no where! lol. wish i had a more exciting answer.
i don't mind the trial.. hate the error!
Ok, I'll go for more of the man of mystery with my GAL activities, which 2 was good to remind me that I'm not really doing much of....
However, I am taking S to a museum exhibit on ancient weapons tomorrow night after I get home from school. Of course W knows about that one but still fun time with my son.
S and I also went to church tonight. W & D10 didn't want to go. Thankful that my S at least enjoys going with me.
The museum exhibit sounds awesome! Have a great time with S!!
I need to figure out how to be more mysterious, H can usually figure out what I'm doing or he asked me directly, and I won't lie- so I end up telling him.... I do have 1 or 2 secrets left, hopefully I can keep them hidden
Our sitchs do feel like constant trial and error, it's exhausting. I wish there were a set of 'one size fits all' rules/instructions for us. But that's what I like about these boards, we can take bits and pieces from all the other sitchs and make our own special solution.... Still haven't quite figured mine out
The thing about Al-anon meeting is after people may go out for coffee or to chat for a little bit. Even if she knows you are going to Al-anon you will start to make new al-anon friends. They will definitely make your wife curious when you hang out with them after the meeting.
Your W may not be an alcoholic but as an Adult Child of an alcoholic her behavior is alcoholic and that behavior effected your R. My father was a drinker until I was 16 and has been in AA since. My mother is the Adult Child of an Alcoholic and has never drank and never need to go to recovery - through Al anon I see that my mothers disease had a far greater impact on me then my Dads. Your W carries with her traits that are not conducive to smooth relationships because she never saw a smooth relationship grow up.
Thanks Purg- Tonight was the only night the museum was open late enough to go. I think W is a bit upset as she needs to get the kids packed to leave tomorrow for their spring break trip. She got a bit testy with me last night saying she was tutoring and wouldn't be home until 5 to fix dinner.
I told her I'd just grab something quick for S13 and me when I got home. Then she snapped about eating out too much and I replied that I was referring to getting something quick at the house. Think I got a "whatever" response....
I agree that each of our sitch's are custom made even though the similarities across them are extraordinary.
BM- Thanks for pointing that out. Of course with Al Anon, the focus is on me and who I am (as it should be) but it does help to hear validation of the baggage my W is carrying with her. I see it and hate it for her. I've tried to help her understand how letting go and dealing with it will help her find real happiness but I also realize that my trying to push that is coming across as controlling so I've had to really step back and stop.
Journal stuff:
Still reading through "No More Mr. Nice Guy". Its a lot to digest. There are a lot of activities inside the book that I'm not doing yet. I'm processing at a high level but haven't dug in like I need to on all of them. I plan on getting through the book and then re-reading it to get deeper. Her's what I've gathered so far for me:
-I'm not as honest as I thought I was. Hiding my emotions in an effort to accommodate/please others is a form of dishonesty. I had convinced myself that this was a noble act. The fact that I had expectations and even resentment because my needs were not met is evidence it is not noble.
-There is this whole section about being too close or "monogamous" with the mom. I don't get this. My brother and I have spoken several times about how we both love our parents very much but struggle to feel an intimate closeness with them. Dad is a very kind, hard-working man but has struggled to open up with how he feels (pretty sure I get the nice guy traits from him - keeping them or not is my choice though..)
-I'm actually making good progress on several things before ever reading the book. Have made quite a few new friends that are guys since my move. Have also created some extremely open "bare it all" type relationships & conversations with a few of them. - And amazing enough, we're still friends.
-Book talks about a core ingredient of the issue is unmet needs growing up. I clearly remember a point in school when we studied "stoicism" and thinking that is how I need to be to deal with life. And I did.
-Also see where I gave up the idea that anyone wanted to or was willing to meet my needs so I gave up asking and took it all upon myself or decided that maybe I didn't need it anyway.
-Growing up, my focus of friends was mixed. I did have a core group of guy friends through school & college. I also see where I preferred the company/friendship of women a great deal also. Even after W and I started dating, I can see where I let my guy relationships slip away. Thankfully, I've been able to reconnect with a few college buddies and our friendships are growing again.
As I said, still need to go through the book again and dig into the activities. Also still haven't spoken to W about t-shirt & picture. I let the Al Anon discussion take precident and haven't touched this topic. Tonight is the last night I'll see family for over a week. I'll be out with S13 most of the evening so if I don't do it tonight it will have to wait until they get back. OR I could just take them down, place them in the bedroom W uses and let her know how I feel and what I did with her stuff. Not sure about that one though. Feel like if I'm going to do it, it needs to be face to face.
Hope everyone has a great day in DB land...
W called me at work today. 2 topics:
1) Wanted to know how late I'd be out with S13 because he has to pack and finish homework. I let her know I was leaving early so we could get there and back earlier enough for him to take care of what he needed to.
It seems like an inconvenience to her that I am taking S13 tonight when she'd rather have him packing his stuff. In the past I would try to fix this and adjust to make her happy and allow her to keep her plans in tact. This time, I'm thinking that this is my time with S13 on something he wanted to do and its something I introduced and we're going to do it. This has been a complaint of W in the past that I've not been involved enough the way she wants me to with the kids.
2) W needs me to look over a few things before she submits the tax return. They are questions about last year's taxes which I had to handle with a tax service due to some complexities of unemployment & 401k withdrawals. Told her that was fine and I'd do that with her tonight.
She still has to make a deal out of things. She said "I'll just answer what I think and if we get audited then we get audited."
My plan is to stay calm and thank her for doing all the tax stuff. This is also good because I'll get to see what the return looks like and know how much to expect. This will also bridge to the conversation of how we use the money once it comes back.
The "No More Mr. Nice Guy" sounds like something my H should read. He was just like you in the sense that he was 'nobel' and kept his feelings inside so as not to upset anyone. He has also talked about (almost in the exact same words) that he accepted the fact that his needs weren't going to be met. But I think this second one is the reason he left.
H also had more female friends then men for as log as I can remember. But since the bomb, he's reached out and built some good bonds with some guys that were just acquaintances before. Is this a good thing or bad thing for him to think about reconciling our M??
I wonder how I could read it and apply that knowledge in a reaverse kind of way to help H see that his needs *can* be met with me and that he should express himself openly.
I think you're handling the sitch with your S very well, even of W gets a little pissy about it. You have control over the type of R you have with him, regardless of what she thinks. I know you'll miss them on their trip- bu maybe this time can be used to continue building the 'men' friendships.
Hi Ces, As I was reading your post, this
She said "I'll just answer what I think and if we get audited then we get audited."
rally jumped out at me.
Money was a big trigger for me. I was always freaked out when I thought I made a mistake with money and that we would somehow end up penniless (possible, not probable). I would react with panic internally and then throw out some angry retort with a don't give a sh!t attitude. All because of my fear.
Might your W's reactions be based in her fear?
H also had more female friends then men for as log as I can remember. But since the bomb, he's reached out and built some good bonds with some guys that were just acquaintances before. Is this a good thing or bad thing for him to think about reconciling our M??
Purg - I'd say its a good thing. I'm still reading but from what I get from the book, "nice guys" seek approval from women especially, one of the ways to remedy that is to have strong friendships with guys where we feel accepted. With that acceptance, there isn't as much a reliance on women for approval. How is your H with his Mom? What's that relationship like? The book says the relationships with the parents can also play a big part in how the nice guy processes things.
Hi Ces, As I was reading your post, this
She said "I'll just answer what I think and if we get audited then we get audited."
rally jumped out at me.
Might your W's reactions be based in her fear?
Hi labug, it could very well be. I think there is also a big chance that shame is mixed into this. W knows she spent money we didn't have and that's a big reason we have the debt issues we do. W is already running up her balance on her own cc just in the 2 months she's been using it. She's hiding the statement and the transaction so I don't see what she is buying.
She specifically asked to do our taxes. Her actual statement was "I'm taking the taxes back this year".
We did go over the taxes tonight but it was not pleasant. She asked if I had time talk about them. So I went in and sat next to her. She asked a question and I responded with a question to understand what she was looking for. Her response was "Don't you even know what kind of account you had?" in a very sacastic tone. She threw another comment like that at me and I just looked at her and said "Do you want to talk about this or just criticize me?"
At that she said "I don't want to do anything. You should have done the taxes since you did them last year" and walked out of the room. At that point I went through the papers and reviewed what was needed and let here know it looked fine to me.
I've backed away too many times and tonight I just couldn't do it. W walked back into the room and I asked her point blank why she felt the need to be rude to me and critize me. She just said "I don't know". I responded by saying "That answer is getting really old, I hope you find a different one soon." (Yeah, I know not my best DB night).
Earlier in the evening W asked D is she knew where her jeans were. Then she said "Did you ask your dad if he saw him...not that he'd remember". She didn't know I could hear her. So I responded by saying, Can you just ask me without the snide remarks?"
So after our snapping, I finally said, "You told me you wanted to do the taxes, if you didn't I would have done them. I appreciate you that you did them. Then a little later I asked her if there was something else she was mad about and needed to talk about or is it just our situation overall? She said it was just the same as it always is.
After this she kind of calmed down a little but we didn't really talk except to say "good night".
On a bright now, S and I had a fun evening together at the museum.
Family leaves tomorrow so I won't see them again until Sunday of next week. I plan on enjoying myself...
maybe i need to read this book too. my H seems to gravitate towards female friendships. the problem i guess is when they form emotional bonds w/ these other women rather than their wife.
ces, i was sort of thinking the same thing as labug. seems like the anger is a cover up.
have to say.. really admire how you're handling things and willingness to read and look within.
I think you said she is an adult child and probably has a lot of shame around not being good enough. Not that that excuses her behavior but helps in understanding where it comes from.
I went to my home group Alanon meeting this morning and the topic was compassion, both self-compassion and compassion for those who hurt us. Just as we are wounded, so are they.
It's really hard to muster up that compassion sometimes.
Yeah, i didn't really pull the compassion thing off tonight. I honestly don't feel too bad about calling her out on her behaviors this evening.
I know she's hurting. I know that pain is driving her behavior. But I also know that I grew up watching my dad tuck his tail between his legs every time my mom started yelling at him and I fell into the same behavior. I don't want that for my son and I don't want my D to think that is an appropriate way to treat her husband.
I did not yell at her. I was stern and I was direct. (and a tad bit condesending with the "hope you find a better answer")
Typically after the few times this has happened, I actually end up getting an apology from W for her actions. But I'm not expecting one since she leaves in the morning.
Labug - W told me once after the bomb that she was thankful that she knew I would never harm her or abuse her. She knows that I have tried to take care of her. But her excuse is "you're a nice guy but there are lots of nice guys and I don't love them either."
I'm thankful that she knows she is safe with me. But I'm ready to kill this "nice guy" and bury the body where no one can find him again...
maybe i need to read this book too. my H seems to gravitate towards female friendships. the problem i guess is when they form emotional bonds w/ these other women rather than their wife.
BF - I can only speak for me, but there is a validation I was looking for from women. Not sure why I needed it from women more then men.
I noticed this especially on a business trip a while back. It had been about a year since the bomb. It seemed everywhere I looked was a gorgeous woman. But the thing I realized is that I didn't want these women, I just wanted them to notice me. Do you see the difference? I just wanted to be noticed by someone - I was basing my own value on on whether or not women I didn't even know, noticed me.
I came home and actually told my W about this. It was a big step for me to realize that I was seeking validation from strangers and I had put that same responsibility on my W during our marriage. It wasn't good for either of us.
So I guess from this, validating your husband is a good thing to a point. It does build a connection, but he's got to grow to a point that he can apprecaite it from you without needing it for his own self-worth. But if he doesn't realize that then he's going to follow the woman that feeds that need. Even if its temporary, and it typically is...
I think you have to find the strength to save you. You can't save her but you're right, you can show your children a better way.
I was not a very nice person sometimes before I figured out what my problem was/is. I'm trying to have compassion for myself and that in turn helps me with compassion for others. As another person said at the meeting today, "You can't give to others what you don't have."
I love Alanon.
As another person said at the meeting today, "You can't give to others what you don't have."
That's a great quote. Very biblically based. Psalms 23 talks about our cup running over... It took me a while to realize what that was talking about but its the same idea. We bless others by what we have so the more we can be filled with love, grace, mercy, etc., then the more of that we have to share with others.
Thakns for the reminder, bug! (((lb))))
I've backed away too many times and tonight I just couldn't do it. W walked back into the room and I asked her point blank why she felt the need to be rude to me and critize me. She just said "I don't know". I responded by saying "That answer is getting really old, I hope you find a different one soon." (Yeah, I know not my best DB night).
Earlier in the evening W asked D is she knew where her jeans were. Then she said "Did you ask your dad if he saw him...not that he'd remember". She didn't know I could hear her. So I responded by saying, Can you just ask me without the snide remarks?"
CES, I think you handled that really well. There is nothing wrong with asserting your boundary regarding respect. And I don't think it is anti-DB. After all, asking for what you want is entirely appropriate. Hopefully, your W will adjust her attitude in the future.
So when are you going to talk to her about the tee shirt and picture?
So when are you going to talk to her about the tee shirt and picture?
Ah yes, I was hoping to avoid that question but knew I wouldn't here (which is one of the reason I love this place.)
I will be doing it when she gets back. We had enough arguments tonight. Also, tomorrow is the anniversary of her mom's death and I do need to back off at some point. Its been 26 years since her mom died. W is ALWAYS emotional about it. From 3/9 when she died to 3/12 when the funeral was held. Every year she is down around these dates.
I have a card to fill out and leave for her so she knows I remember. W has a lot of mixed emotions about her mom. On one side, they were very close because the dad took off on them. On the other hand W got angry with her mom after our D was born because of how she didn't protect them against a drunk, angry father.
But I will address it the week she is back. And I know you'll hold me accountable for that!
Her response was "Don't you even know what kind of account you had?" in a very sacastic tone. She threw another comment like that at me and I just looked at her and said "Do you want to talk about this or just criticize me?"
At that she said "I don't want to do anything. You should have done the taxes since you did them last year" and walked out of the room. At that point I went through the papers and reviewed what was needed and let here know it looked fine to me.
Good for you for standing up for yourself. Never regret that. You have to try to break the habit of trying to make things go smoothly all of the time. It's not really helping your M.
After I started reading the Nice Guy book and standing up for myself when my wife would be demeaning, she got SO angry. Some of the worst I've seen from her. I just made it clear that I wasn't willing to be treated that way. I didn't yell, I was just firm in my expectation to be treated with respect. I should have tried that years ago. I was afraid of precisely the kind of reaction I got out of her, when I was only trying to smooth things over and make her negative feelings go away, like that was my job.
But it only took about two weeks of doing this with really only two notable tantrums on my wife's part before it stopped. She doesn't treat me that way any more. We communicate better.
But her excuse is "you're a nice guy but there are lots of nice guys and I don't love them either."
I'm thankful that she knows she is safe with me. But I'm ready to kill this "nice guy" and bury the body where no one can find him again...
You really hit the nail on the head. She doesn't need the nice guy. She feels safe, but he's just not attractive. Bury him and get in touch with yourself. Nice guy just doesn't have the life energy to be compelling. He's trying hard to get approval from people and attract them, but he needs to learn to be comfortable being who he is.
Kill the nice guy. He's not helping you, your wife, your family, or your M.