When it's a one-way street...part 3

Continuing from part 2.... Part 2

CV - Just a thought. My H snores like a buzz saw. Seriously, I used to complain about it ALL THE TIME. I tried ear plugs before, but got irritated with H, because he should just either quit snoring (i.e., breathing LOL) or use the throat spray. He did neither.

Since the bomb, and the fact that I'm trying not to sweat the small stuff, I bought a pair of silicone ear plugs. These things have saved my life. And H couldn't even tell I was wearing them. He still wouldn't know, but I told him one day when he told me something about sorry for keeping me up one night.

If for no other reason than you want to get a good night's sleep - GET THE EARPLUGS!

Thanks, Ro, for the info. I'll keep that in mind. I'm glad they work so well for you. S has earplugs we got him for going to the movie theater years back. They might even be silicone.

I sleep perfectly well in the other bedroom. It's funny because I've always said someone should do a sleep study on me, to learn how TO sleep. I could count on both hands the number of times I've had insomnia in my life. I guess my real resistance to this is that I would not even consider ear plugs for my own benefit - don't need them. But apparently I'm supposed to consider them for H's benefit because he wants me to sleep in the same bed, yet he won't wear his cpap. The initial irritation you expressed about your H not doing his part is exactly where I would be.

"Point is, I'm don't want a big response from H. I don't really even want any response from him right now, I just want to stop doing things that are interpreted as being offensive, by him or anyone.

Phase one, baby steps."

OK, baby steps...

You know, you need to play it cool. Do one thing very subtly and let it play out. Then wait awhile and do something else.

I really wish Sandi would drop by because she is going to be able to help you in ways that I can't.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to provide my perspective on things, I'm just not sure if my perspective is always the best for the WAW. After all I'm struggling through my own fun at the moment and I'm the LBS.

I thought you said H doesn't have sleep apnea? Then why does he have a CPAP? If he has one, he needs to use it... When was the last time he went to a sleep specialist? What if you go to one together with the aim of coming up with a solution to the sharing the bed problem?

And drop the tit for tat, it is never helpful in life.

I get it, 2, I really do. That's why I said I'm in such a weird place. I think most people here are in your shoes, and the advice is usually all about doing 180's and getting them back. I'm struggling really hard to even want to go back.

I agree, Sandi might be able to help. I read a lot of my own thoughts when I went through her first year of posts. I'm not dealing with the OM like she did, but certainly the lack of desire for my H in ANY manner. It's so good of her to spend time here still, when her sitch has reconciled so well and she could be off and running.

Would you mind just adding a little meat to some of the points you made in your response to my Saturday events? I really am looking for alternatives to being interrogating, passive aggressive, antagonistic, provocative, itching for an altercation, shaming, sarcastic and patronizing. LOL! What a list! Maybe just pretend like the interaction was between you and me (not H and W) and what I should have done instead. Is that possible?

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

... Would you mind just adding a little meat to some of the points you made in your response to my Saturday events? I really am looking for alternatives to being interrogating, passive aggressive, antagonistic, provocative, itching for an altercation, shaming, sarcastic and patronizing. LOL! What a list! Maybe just pretend like the interaction was between you and me (not H and W) and what I should have done instead. Is that possible?

OK, look inside the quotation box below for my additional comments which are in blue font.

Originally Posted By: 2thepoint

"I asked him that if he still wanted to talk about it, why did he respond so negatively when I inquired about the email? He explained that it was because the last words we had Friday night and the first words we had Saturday morning were an interrogation by me about the email. He said he was annoyed because I was hounding him about it, that he didn't appreciate being hunted down and nagged about it while he was on the treadmill."

As I was reading your post I was searching for the right word to describe how I was interpreting your interaction with your H and what you write above I think describes it pretty well.... Interrogation.

I'm not sure your H really knows what he wants out of a M. I think he knows he wants something but has a hard time articulating what it is, thus he goes the easy route and on to the internet looking for answers.

"So I asked him how he knows that that's what God wants, and if he could point me to some scripture verses. That wasn't received well...."

This ^^^ seems a little argumentative and antagonistic to me.

The vision I have when I read this part is you are standing over him with your arms crossed and cynically telling him to "prove it!"

How do you think he might have responded if you and him looked through the Bible together in search of the answer? Something like..."H you said this is what God wants. I'm interested in learning more, can we look through the Bible together and see what it says about this?" In this way you are sort of taking a more collaborative approach and working together to become part of the solution

"I said that I could go out on the Web myself, but I wanted to know HIS foundation of belief."

Again, this ^^^ seems antagonistic...

I read this as saying, "Look H, I think you are full of crap and I can prove it, but I'm not going to waste my time!" It would probably have been best if you didn't even go down this path.

"Anyway, I emailed him back Fri morning asking if he had actually read the article that he sent me. He said he had, sort of, while we were talking, so I suggested he might want to read it again more slowly."

A little condescension maybe?

OK, so you busted him here. He really didn't read what he sent you and so you nailed his nutts to the wall. And, when you say read it again "more slowly" you're really putting him on the defensive and he probably felt like you viewed him as stupid. If that was your intent, you succeeded.

If it was necessary to touch on this, maybe it would have been more productive to pull out a few selected quotes and ask him to help you understand what he is thinking, because you're not getting it.

"Some time after he got home, maybe about 6:00, I asked him if he reread the article, he said yes. I asked if he still believed it, and he said yes. I said okay, that's all I needed to know."

I'm puzzled by this. "that's all I need to know" seems very provocative and even a little passive aggressive.

So when you said "that's all I need to know" what were you thinking? What do you think your H thinks you were thinking? I interpret your comment as saying, "H, you've just confirmed for me that you are a stupid." And, I'll bet that is how he felt after you said what you did.

"...checked my email and noticed I hadn't gotten an email from H like he said he was going to do some 14 hours prior. I thought that's what he was doing on his laptop. So I went downstairs where H was paused on the treadmill watching tv and asked him if he had sent the email."

Why the scorecard? And if you hadn't received the email, why interrogate him about whether or not her sent it if you know he didn't? It just seems like you are itching for an altercation....or to prove yourself right, maybe?

Here is where I would say that there is a time and place for everything and this wasn't the time or the place. If he hadn't responded "14 hours later" (oh and BTW why were you keeping track? Score keeping I presume?) I would have dropped it until the issue came up again, and then I would have said something like, "I was waiting for that email you said you were going to send" and leave it at that. No need to escalate.

"I was finished eating and finished cleaning the kitchen ready to leave, so I asked H if he had sent the email. He said no and the tone of his voice was obviously irritated -- the prelude to an argument."

Of course he is going to get irritated. You've been harping on the email and he is becoming defensive. Maybe he realizes he picked the wrong battle with you but you keep coming back at him and he is feeling shamed into reacting.

I don't really have anything else to add to this ^^^^.

"A little later when he was done in the kitchen, he said again that he was going to send me the email and wanted to discuss it. I said it wasn't necessary because it was obviously a high-conflict topic, and there really wasn't anything to discuss. He could hold whatever opinion he wanted regarding marriage and I had no comment to share. He kept trying to ask me my thoughts, but I kept declining, stating that it doomed for failure based upon his initial aggressive response."

So now after you have been pressing for him to send you the email, you tell him it is not necessary. TBH, I'd be pretty PO'd at this point. Again, it just seems very passive aggressive.

You pushed him for the email, so you should have let him send it. By pressing the issue over and over and then telling him to basically forget it, it really comes across a lot like Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football. Go ahead Charlie, kick the ball, I won't pull the ball away... promise

"The big problem I have is that this is how I act with everybody. If my behavior is that inappropriate, I want to know because I'm apparently offending everyone."

OK, this is how I'm reading things based upon what you wrote above. You have a lot of pent up anger, frustration, resentment, etc. and it comes out in all of your interactions with your H. I don't know if this is how you deliver messages to your H but when I read your post I read sarcasm, condescension, and a thoroughly patronizing tone. Is it possible your H hears it the same way?

And if he does, can you see how the dynamic between you two will never change as long as he feels threatened and shamed and talked down to?

Thanks 2!

Quote:

I read this as saying, "Look H, I think you are full of crap and I can prove it, but I'm not going to waste my time!" It would probably have been best if you didn't even go down this path.

Okay, to be completely honest, I do think he's full of cr@p. Would it have been offensive if I had simply said, "I don't believe it does say that, but I could be wrong and I would be happy to consider anything you'd like to point me to."? I'm really not up for sitting down and looking through the bible with him, especially when I believe he is wrong. Also, I feel like that's putting him in a position where I will literally be working with him and ultimately pointing out that he's wrong, and to me, that would be more in line with "proving" it.

Quote:

If it was necessary to touch on this, maybe it would have been more productive to pull out a few selected quotes and ask him to help you understand what he is thinking, because you're not getting it.

Can you tell me how that would be different than my asking him to explain his belief that God wants us to sleep in the same bed? I feel like any time I ask for an explanation, I'm being offensive somehow, yet now you're suggesting I should.

Quote:

So when you said "that's all I need to know" what were you thinking? What do you think your H thinks you were thinking?

I was thinking his clearly different perception of himself was going to result in a huge conflict if I attempted to discuss it with him. Since he was unable to see his own shortcomings in light of the marriage definition, it meant we were simply on completely different planets when it came defining the problems in the relationship. Since we communicate so ineffectively, I believed any further conversation about the topic would be monumental, unsuccessful, and pointless. I wasn't going to try to correct him -- he's entitled to his perspective. I don't really know what he thought, although he still keeps asking me what issues I had with it. I've reluctantly given him two.

Quote:

I would have dropped it until the issue came up again, and then I would have said something like, "I was waiting for that email you said you were going to send" and leave it at that. No need to escalate.

I'm having a difficult time distinguishing the difference between two instances where in one case, the approach is bad, and in another the same approach is good. You indicated it would have been good if I had offered/asked to sit down with him and look up scriptural references for sleeping in the same bed, but when I do attempt to work/talk with him about his definition for marriage, I've done something wrong because I pursued the email.

Would it be good/reasonable to just sit and wait for him to initiate/drive? I can do that, but I feel so checked out of the relationship if I do. Like the conversation in the car, he just doesn't invest. Like the email, he'll often say he's going to do something and then never does. I don't know how to tell when I'm helping the relationship or hurting it. It seems like I'm just always wrong.

Quote:

You pushed him for the email, so you should have let him send it. By pressing the issue over and over and then telling him to basically forget it, it really comes across a lot like Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football. Go ahead Charlie, kick the ball, I won't pull the ball away.

It's interesting that you would say that I'M the one doing that. I would have said the same thing about him. He says he wants to engage with me, but then doesn't send the email. When I come to him and want to engage, by asking for the email, he complains that I'm hounding him. So I say nevermind, and then suddenly he won't leave it alone. If I initiated a conversation tonight, because he last said he still wanted to talk about it, he would be resistant. (That reminds me, my Sole Partner book came and it has a chapter on this dance, I believe. I need to go read that.) In any case, I would say my actions are responsive, not leading, but I'm trying to apply what you're saying.

Looking for a plan going forward, incorporating everything you're suggesting. I have to admit that I'm so gun-shy right now, that I'm afraid to say much of anything to him. Would it be wrong to do absolutely nothing to work on the relationship until he brings it up or makes a suggestion? Honestly, he might never. He claims he just never knows how to initiate or what to talk about.

Well I read the chapter in Solo Partner on pursuit and distance between partners. I haven't even read the rest of the book but already it was well worth the money. I can't imagine why it isn't in print anymore.

Some of it is just a bit off for us, but the principles are "right on." The best description for us, right at the beginning of the chapter is, "Only when she is thoroughly fed up and wanted nothing further to do with him would he be willing to work on their relationship. But as soon as she became reinvolved with him, he lost interest and became cold, distant, and irresponsible again." Not surprising, to me anyway, it said that 80% of pursuers are women, and 80% of distancers are men.

I see this in major things as well as these little exchanges. If I want to participate, he doesn't. When I say nevermind, then he's hounding me to participate. Gardening, which is not even that big of a hobby for me anymore, is now some sort of relational necessity just because I don't want him to.

The book goes on to talk about how I need to completely disengage. Not do things with him, not have sex if I don't want to, not to engage at all, and that I should do this until I'm sure he has changed. That's the only real question I have -- how do I know when he's really changed? I've been duped before, many times, so I'm pretty doubtful of any change being real.

It's almost surreal reading it and relating it to my sitch and what I read on this board. It basically explains why women have to D their husbands before they get their attention. Trying to improve it inside the M actually makes it worse for them. It explains further the DB principle of not begging, pleading, etc. to get your WAS back, except it's coming at it from the approach of the future WAS inside the M.

But the women need it as much as the men, because they need to work on themselves. I'm still sorting through what the book says we're supposed to work on, but it sounds like we need to be cold to our H's, in order to keep them engaged and wanting to pursue us. Basically, play hard to get. Go totally against our natural tendencies to care and nurture and be emotionally involved with our Hs, because that just shuts them down. I certainly have my history of failed attempts to prove it. (And if this is true, it's another question I'll be asking God if I ever get an audience with Him.)

Oh, and the really interesting part. It says I am absolutely NOT supposed to show this chapter to my distancing H. Apparently, it's supposed to be a very difficult and miserable experience for him, to be totally figured out by him, and probably take a long time to do so. It reads that if you're a distancer reading the book, just skip the chapter or hand it to your pursuing spouse. LOL!! Evidently, as a pursuer, our direct approach of facing the problem head on and digging in doesn't work. (I always thought the fix-it concept was a guy thing? Maybe it's different because it's relationally.)

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

Thanks 2!

Quote:

I read this as saying, "Look H, I think you are full of crap and I can prove it, but I'm not going to waste my time!" It would probably have been best if you didn't even go down this path.

Okay, to be completely honest, I do think he's full of cr@p. Would it have been offensive if I had simply said, "I don't believe it does say that, but I could be wrong and I would be happy to consider anything you'd like to point me to."? I'm really not up for sitting down and looking through the bible with him, especially when I believe he is wrong. Also, I feel like that's putting him in a position where I will literally be working with him and ultimately pointing out that he's wrong, and to me, that would be more in line with "proving" it.

Quote:

If it was necessary to touch on this, maybe it would have been more productive to pull out a few selected quotes and ask him to help you understand what he is thinking, because you're not getting it.

Can you tell me how that would be different than my asking him to explain his belief that God wants us to sleep in the same bed? I feel like any time I ask for an explanation, I'm being offensive somehow, yet now you're suggesting I should.

Quote:

So when you said "that's all I need to know" what were you thinking? What do you think your H thinks you were thinking?

I was thinking his clearly different perception of himself was going to result in a huge conflict if I attempted to discuss it with him. Since he was unable to see his own shortcomings in light of the marriage definition, it meant we were simply on completely different planets when it came defining the problems in the relationship. Since we communicate so ineffectively, I believed any further conversation about the topic would be monumental, unsuccessful, and pointless. I wasn't going to try to correct him -- he's entitled to his perspective. I don't really know what he thought, although he still keeps asking me what issues I had with it. I've reluctantly given him two.

Quote:

I would have dropped it until the issue came up again, and then I would have said something like, "I was waiting for that email you said you were going to send" and leave it at that. No need to escalate.

I'm having a difficult time distinguishing the difference between two instances where in one case, the approach is bad, and in another the same approach is good. You indicated it would have been good if I had offered/asked to sit down with him and look up scriptural references for sleeping in the same bed, but when I do attempt to work/talk with him about his definition for marriage, I've done something wrong because I pursued the email.

Would it be good/reasonable to just sit and wait for him to initiate/drive? I can do that, but I feel so checked out of the relationship if I do. Like the conversation in the car, he just doesn't invest. Like the email, he'll often say he's going to do something and then never does. I don't know how to tell when I'm helping the relationship or hurting it. It seems like I'm just always wrong.

Quote:

You pushed him for the email, so you should have let him send it. By pressing the issue over and over and then telling him to basically forget it, it really comes across a lot like Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football. Go ahead Charlie, kick the ball, I won't pull the ball away.

It's interesting that you would say that I'M the one doing that. I would have said the same thing about him. He says he wants to engage with me, but then doesn't send the email. When I come to him and want to engage, by asking for the email, he complains that I'm hounding him. So I say nevermind, and then suddenly he won't leave it alone. If I initiated a conversation tonight, because he last said he still wanted to talk about it, he would be resistant. (That reminds me, my Sole Partner book came and it has a chapter on this dance, I believe. I need to go read that.) In any case, I would say my actions are responsive, not leading, but I'm trying to apply what you're saying.

Looking for a plan going forward, incorporating everything you're suggesting. I have to admit that I'm so gun-shy right now, that I'm afraid to say much of anything to him. Would it be wrong to do absolutely nothing to work on the relationship until he brings it up or makes a suggestion? Honestly, he might never. He claims he just never knows how to initiate or what to talk about.

CV - it is really hard to comment on each specific interaction you have with your H. The whole dynamic between you two just seems so screwy.

Accuray commented on your other post so when you have a minute, go take a look at what he has to say there. His points about how he sees the interaction between the two of you, seems to be pretty spot on in my opinion.

In a previous post I suggested you take a look at a book called "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It." I really think you should take a look at it.

Here is the list of the chapter titles:

Part One: Why it has been so hard to improve your relationship
1 - How we break the connection: Fear and Shame
2 - Why we fight: The reactivity of fear and shame
3 - The silent male: What he's thinking and feeling
4 - The worst thing a woman does to a man: Shaming
5 - The worst thing a man does to a woman: Leaving her alone but married
6 - How fear and shame lead to infidelity, separation and divorce

Part Two: Using your fear and shame to create love beyond words
7 - Your core values
8 - Learning to transform fear and shame in your relationship
9 - Binocular vision
10 - The natural language of binocular vision: When sex talks, who needs words?
11 - The only connection skill you need: Stepping into the puddle
12 - If you want connection, forget "feelings" think motivation
13 - Man to man - How to strengthen your relationship without becoming a woman
14 - The power love formula: Four and three quarter minutes a day to a powerful relationship

Conclusion: If you want to love big, you have to think small

I just ordered the book from the library. Now I'm going to go review Accuray's posting....

Originally Posted By: Accuray

Hi CV,

I definitely feel you are itching for an argument with H, even though you may feel you are being calm and rational. From my interpretation, your opinions are well considered and well researched. You have a lot of conviction in your beliefs, and you feel that what you believe is well-justified.

H, on the other hand, seems to be constantly getting caught flat-footed. He is not well researched or well thought out in advance. He's coming into these conversations not well able to express himself and tries to wing it.

When you sense he's doing that, you pounce. You try to shine a light on his contradictions and irrational statements. He then sees that you're out maneuvering him, and he gets embarrassed, defensive, and/or belligerent because he's been painted into a corner. It seems that when he realizes he's been cornered, he just wants to let the issue drop and walk away, but you keep chasing him to bring his point to a close when it's obviously not going anywhere.

Honestly it comes across a bit like bullying -- you are smarter, faster, etc., where he is slower, less prepared, less able to think on his feet. It doesn't seem like you respect him, so you treat him like someone who is not worthy of your respect.

I think you're putting a veneer of "nice and accommodating" over the top, but it's easy for him (and the folks on this board) to see through that right away.

WRT the tactical dilemmas, snoring makes me nuts too. Not being able to get a restful night of sleep is the worst. Some suggestions:

1) Twitching: How about a king bed composed of two twins pushed together? That way you have your own mattress and may be insulated from his twitching. You can still touch across the gap before you fall asleep and when you wake up, but when you're sleeping you're isolated.

2) Snoring: Either you need to deal with it or he does. You can't both do nothing. He could try breathe-right strips, or other solutions from a doctor. You could get used to wearing earplugs. One of you would have to do something.

WRT the respect issue, do you believe your H is as intelligent as you are? DO you respect him? It doesn't sound like it, it sounds like you feel contempt for him and look down on him. If that's the case, it's going to be hard to get back to loving him.

Accuray

I'm just copying this over here, as to not lose it on the previous post. It has a lot of great points that I want to get back to.

Quote:

One of you would have to do something.

One simple question before I get into all the complicated stuff. Why does one of us have to do something? Why can't we just accept that this is how it is? I've wanted for my whole marriage for H to earn more money so I could quit work and be a SAHM. He was management when I met him. He's been steadily working his way down the corporate ladder ever since. He COULD go back to school and get a masters, but he hasn't. He COULD get some certification, but he hasn't. I've been blessed in my career and I'm making the best of it in spite of having to work when I don't want to, even going back to school myself, and I haven't brought it up to H in forever. It simply is what it is and it's not likely to change. Why are H's demands acceptable? Why isn't his approach "nagging?" Why isn't his claim that God wants us to sleep together "bullying?" It's certainly how I feel.

Meanwhile, I have to go study for a micro exam tomorrow (eek!) so I'll have to post more detail regarding the rest of the recent posts later.

But thanks so much for the feedback!

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

One simple question before I get into all the complicated stuff. Why does one of us have to do something? Why can't we just accept that this is how it is? I've wanted for my whole marriage for H to earn more money so I could quit work and be a SAHM. He was management when I met him. He's been steadily working his way down the corporate ladder ever since. He COULD go back to school and get a masters, but he hasn't. He COULD get some certification, but he hasn't. I've been blessed in my career and I'm making the best of it in spite of having to work when I don't want to, even going back to school myself, and I haven't brought it up to H in forever. It simply is what it is and it's not likely to change. Why are H's demands acceptable? Why isn't his approach "nagging?" Why isn't his claim that God wants us to sleep together "bullying?" It's certainly how I feel.

Ha ha! Good points. I can see I would enjoy debating with you in person. You are right -- you don't have to do anything. I guess I read into your post that you wanted to respond to that request from H, but you certainly don't have to. I thought you asked him what he wanted from marriage, he answered, and you were thinking about what it would take to deliver on that.

Don't get me started on the "what God wants" stuff. That would make me absolutely crazy too.

A couple other thoughts, when H asks you what you mean or what you think and you don't tell him, that's really aggravating, I think if you get to that point you're not doing yourself any favors by withholding your thoughts. I guess I would ask why you're having these conversations you're really not interested in having. You're going into them with your mind already made up. If H happens to support your pre-decision, it's a non-event. If he doesn't, the discussion isn't going to be productive because you're not going to respect what he has to say and you're really not motivated to change your position. Why are you even having these conversations?

I'm happy you found value in "The Solo Partner", I just received my copy in the mail too and was going to start it. I've been reading exclusively e-books because I can do it without scrutiny, so that one is going to be more of a challenge. Although 80% of pursuers are women, I am the 20%

--Accuray

Okay, now for the more complicated stuff.

Quote:

I thought you asked him what he wanted from marriage, he answered, and you were thinking about what it would take to deliver on that.

I don't remember how the topic came up. I just remember him listing off a string of things that God wants me to do. I'm perfectly fine sleeping in the other room.

Quote:

It doesn't seem like you respect him, so you treat him like someone who is not worthy of your respect.

I think you're putting a veneer of "nice and accommodating" over the top, but it's easy for him (and the folks on this board) to see through that right away.

WRT the respect issue, do you believe your H is as intelligent as you are? DO you respect him? It doesn't sound like it, it sounds like you feel contempt for him and look down on him. If that's the case, it's going to be hard to get back to loving him.

Honestly, no, I don't respect him. He's done too many things to me for me to do that. Plus, it seems nearly impossible to get basic courtesy and respect from him, so no, I don't offer it in return. I do think I'm probably smarter than him, and he would say so too, but that alone wouldn't cause me to disrespect him. He worked hard for many years to earn it.

I have mentioned that I'm the WAW, right? That my greatest desire for a long while has just been to get as far away from him as I can? That I'd like to salvage our marriage, but for now I'd just like to eliminate the conflict? Because I'm thinking you all are expecting a whole lot more from me right now than I'm capable of.

If you can just help me to not antagonize the situation, that would be good. The "nice" parts will have to come later.

Quote:

A couple other thoughts, when H asks you what you mean or what you think and you don't tell him, that's really aggravating, I think if you get to that point you're not doing yourself any favors by withholding your thoughts. I guess I would ask why you're having these conversations you're really not interested in having.

I think it's probably best not to have them. If I have any opinion that differs from H's, then it gets heated. It's as if my being married to him means I'm supposed to think just like him, and if I don't, I'm doing something wrong. So would it be reasonable to simply decline? Could I say that's not a topic I care to discuss? Remember, I'm just trying to not make things worse, to reduce the conflict.

So, going back to the Sole Partner book, there's a chapter on anger. It's sort of mis-titled because it's primarily about expectations. But it says that "when we expect or anticipate something and it does not materialize, disappointment follows and our hurt is transformed into anger, which, if not resolved, usually turns into resentment, and can over time, develop into bitterness." I think that's something I can work on. I think I might even be past the anger and resentment into bitterness already. I definitely have a pile of failed expectations. The book says you can either smolder, lower expectations, or leave. Obviously, it leads you to lower expectations. It looks like it's just a method for facilitating looking at yourself. So I'm going to try to work on that. I wish it went more into what the relationship looked like afterwards. It has a few examples, but a lot of them are people leaving. I don't know how to lower my expectation about honesty, so that I just don't expect my H not to lie to me, and then still create a healthy marriage. Thoughts on this from y'all would be fabo!

I'm kind of all over this book right now, squeezing it in when I can. Hopefully I'll have a chance to really read it this weekend.

This works in both direction, CV:

We instruct the LBS that even when we may disagree with our spouse, we validate their opinions.

Validating does not mean that we agree with them, it simply means that we accept that they believe their opinions and have their feelings which may be different than ours.

The language we relay that information with can be important. Words can be very precise, but everyone has their own perspective and will interpret even the most obvious facts through their own filters.

"I understand your position and will take it into consideration." might be something you would say to your H. You are neither saying he is "right" nor are you saying that you will integrate his opinions into your own set of beliefs. Just that you are open to allowing his differing position into your relationship as you hope he eventually mirror on your opinions.

Do unto others...

KD, I don't have a problem with him having a differing opinion. Many times, I've said, "I understand your opinion/need/perspective. I don't have the same. But you more than are welcome to act upon yours as you wish, I just don't care to participate with you." An example is his kids. I don't feel about them the way he does, their not my kids. I'm not going to cater to them like he does, or adjust my life around theirs like he does. He's welcome to, but I won't. This is unacceptable to him.

It's actually what I was trying to do when I declined to talk about the marriage/friendship article, but apparently didn't do it very well.

They're not, not their not. Yuck. I wish we could edit.

Sorry CV,

So are these your goals?

You want less conflict in your relationship with your husband. You're not looking for your marriage to be "great", but you want it to be tolerable enough to ride it out until your kids are in college and you can end it.

If you could just live as roommates with your husband and enjoy the same courtesies that a roommate would expect, you would be satisfied.

The issues preventing this goal from being realized are the following:

1) Your H is bothered by how you treat him and obviously wants something different and that is causing tension -- i.e. he does not share your goal above and wants/expects something different, but he's not able to really give you a blueprint for what he wants from you.

2) You are bothered by how your H treats you, you feel he fails at "basic civility". Nothing you've done has been effective at changing this. If you make things *really* bad, H will do the minimum to bring things back up, but then relapses as soon as you take the pressure off.

3) You are married to someone you just fundamentally don't respect, which makes it almost impossible to be motivated to work on the marriage. Your goal is to improve your co-habitation situation, not to repair your marriage to the standard folks on this board seem to think you want.

Do I have that right? If so, you're in a very difficult situation and I feel for you. You must feel trapped.

A few more questions for you:

1) Do you feel you really know what H wants from the marriage? Would he be happy with less acrimonious co-habitation, or does he want a fairy tale marriage? Have you discussed this ever, or have you figured it out on your own?

2) Have you told H where you are in this marriage and what your plan is going forward? Have you shared your goal with him?

3) Have you considered the "brutal honesty" approach with him? Just lay it all on the table? How do you think he would react? Would it be better longer term if you did that?

I may be wrong but I get the impression you're caught in a dance where H doesn't understand just how far gone you are, and you haven't been telling him. This missed understanding and conflict of goals seems to have you caught in a cycle that keeps repeating.

Although it would have been hard for me to hear, I would have liked W to put everything on the table when she was so down on the marriage that she had an affair. I believe people always want to know where they stand, and to have their expectations set. Put it out there and give him the opportunity to deal with it.

Accuray

Very well said, Accuray!!! Right on the mark!

The only exception is that I would love to improve the marriage, but it seems impossible from where I'm standing. Plus, I have to get by the daily ugly before I can even imagine what that would look like. I can't discuss the sexual moves that would drive my H wild, for example, when right now I don't even want to touch him.

I believe I have been brutally honest with him. I've even had separation papers drawn up, but he threatened to get really ugly about it and I didn't want to put S through that. He says he wants something different (Norman Rockwell), but he doesn't seem to be able to get past "his" wants in the marriage to even consider mine. He wants to have it but not do what's necessary to get it. Another quote from the book regarding the distancer when the pursuer stops prusuing: "This desperation is also generated by self-deception -- the expectation that the distancer can get more out of a relationship than he puts into it." I believe he's at that stage, where he's still trying to hold on to a self-beneficial, non-reciprocal relationship.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

"This desperation is also generated by self-deception -- the expectation that the distancer can get more out of a relationship than he puts into it." I believe he's at that stage, where he's still trying to hold on to a self-beneficial, non-reciprocal relationship.

I believe my W is there too, she expects to get more from the relationship than she puts into it. When I take my contribution down to her level she complains and gets uncomfortable. For instance, yesterday she complained that I didn't reach out to her at all during the day. She seems to keep score on that. At the same time, she did nothing to reach out to me.

One thing I don't understand about your sitch is how you've been acting with H day to day. I know you've been venting here, but I can't see what's actually going on in your home. Are you detached and have you been distancing as suggested by the book already, or is that something you're considering starting to do now? Have you still been pursuing H or trying to cater to him, or have you been actively avoiding him?

I will be very interested in what you decide to do with the recommendations in the Solo Partner and how it works out for you. With my W, I firmly believe that if I distance she will get very upset and ultimately leave versus deciding to "do the work" or even see the path of doing the work as a way to make things better. I think she's more likely to run than fight.

Keep me updated on what you decide to do with the info in the book.

Accuray

Quote:

For instance, yesterday she complained that I didn't reach out to her at all during the day. She seems to keep score on that. At the same time, she did nothing to reach out to me.

Is it possible that she's still thinking that you "owe" her? That your reconciliation wasn't really a clean slate but time for you to pay her back? I'm not suggesting that she's planning on always being that way, but maybe she's just still dealing with her stuff. BTW, were you always the pursuer or are you just being that now? That's sort of described in the book, that the pursuer becomes the distancer when they leave or D, and then the roles reverse but just temporarily. If she was the original pursuer, it actually sounds like she's doing exactly what she's supposed to be. See if that rings true with you when you get to the chapter.

I can look back to the very beginning of our marriage and see the very self-centered behaviors in my H even then, a the lack of reciprocity for years. Oldtimer was telling me to give up on the tit-for-tat, but honestly, that's what got me here in the first place. I should have insisted upon it from the very beginning. Instead, I did the pursuer dance until I was just totally burned out. I taught him how to treat me, I know, in that regard anyway. Probably the others ways too.

Some of what the book describes for the changes in the pursuer will be easy, but others will be very hard for me in my sitch, because I'm trying to keep things as stress-free as possible for S. Plus, it's the exact opposite of what I would want to teach S to expect from his future W. How do I manage a family vacation for S? He clearly wants us both with him. I said I understand why W's divorce their H's (or at least why pursuers D their distancers.) Then at least their actions match their sitch. Here's the list I pulled from the chapter:
- Do not initiate conversation
- Do not give advice, even if asked
- Do not seek emotional support
- Abstain from trying to improve your partner in any way
- Do not look to him as someone to talk to
- Don't baby him
- Do not do anything for him (cook, laundry, etc.)
- Do not intervene with family/friends
- Do not initiate expressions of affection (don't hug or kiss or say "I love you."
- Do not have sex if you don't want to
- Do not do things with him
- Do not plan around his schedule
- Be away from home if he's there
- Do things w/friends or family by yourself
- all this with the goal to DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
*** Keeping in mind that this is for benefit of the pursuer, not as punishment to the distancer.
(It really, REALLY strikes me as odd that this is what I need to do to attract my partner.)

Some positive actions instead are:
- Fill your life in new ways
- Seek other people that will meet your emotional needs
- Work at meeting new people
- Remember what you used to enjoy
- Develop emotional autonomy
- Change your expectations

I think these last steps sound like what you do when you D. It also sounds like GAL, when you've been left. I don't know yet how that can be done without risking an EA/PA, though the book states clearly not to go there. And not to redirect your needs to your children (which I completely agree!) I'll have to work on that. Ideas would be appreciated.

Quote:

One thing I don't understand about your sitch is how you've been acting with H day to day. I know you've been venting here, but I can't see what's actually going on in your home. Are you detached and have you been distancing as suggested by the book already, or is that something you're considering starting to do now? Have you still been pursuing H or trying to cater to him, or have you been actively avoiding him?

For quite some time, I've been doing the dance described in the book. I would apply some of these points, H would not like it and make promises to change, I would reengage, and 3 days later we'd be right back to where we started. I don't do well not trying to change him, though I was really trying very hard to avoid doing that in regards to the marriage/friendship article. I could just see it coming. I'm not inviting to him, because I don't feel that way. I'm courteous because that's just who I am. We don't yell at each other or make sarcastic comments as we walk by. There is rarely any conversation that would be considered intimate, and that's maybe only level 2. Basically just facts (furnace isn't working, S has boyscouts, etc.) My BFF actually told me that if she didn't know the intimate details of our relationship, that she wouldn't know we even had problems.

In my mind, I feel like I need to go down a path to create a sitch for H like you have with your W. At the same time, it's completely one-sided for you and obviously not something you're going to continue forever. Well how long is "not forever?" How long do I do the distancer dance before I know H has really gotten it? That aspect of my sitch is what makes me relate so well with what Crimson's W is probably going through.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

... others will be very hard for me in my sitch, because I'm trying to keep things as stress-free as possible for S. Plus, it's the exact opposite of what I would want to teach S to expect from his future W. ...

The above in bold I find interesting.

You want your son to learn about what you feel he should seek in a wife, in a non-functional M...

Your fear about leaving the M seems completely revolving around your S.

Your S will grow up in an environment where he learns that spouses are at best room-mate friendly. And at worst, that your S should seek to be in a unhappy M, only to satiate his children.

How is he going to learn about the behaviours of a healthy M and the behaviours of a committed and loving W? What lessons will he learn about being a healthy, committed H?

If I think back on my own parents' marriage, that's about all I learned from them, too -- how to be roommate friendly. I couldn't tell you back then what their M pros and cons were. I couldn't tell you either one's LL, pet peeves, or who was right or wrong in a sitch. I didn't learn how to have sex, or how to date, or even particularly how to fight because you're not supposed to do that in front of kids. The rest of it I figured out on my own, either because it's what I personally wanted or from other relationship experiences. He's not going to learn the marriage lesson any better if his father and I are divorced. If we can't work things out when we both claim we want to, it will be a very conflictual divorce as well and there will be no caring left. It may or may not be the right decision for him, and we won't know until way down the line, but it is what I believe to be best. The years we spent in counseling with/for/because of my skids is not someplace I care to go if I can help it.

I understand. It is difficult to teach our children anything different than we were taught or know ourselves.

Sometimes, life is about experimenting.

What makes me feel stuck in how to provide you with SBT solutions for your relationship with your H is that I feel that anything that is offered will be responded to with a reason for why you cannot or will not do it.

I was just going through some information which again stressed how important it is both to encourage good behaviours (as opposed to punishing bad behaviours) as well as how important it is to give, without the expectations of receiving.

I completely understand how it feels when we get to a point where we just feel like we've been giving and giving and giving and have received nothing in return.

One thing that I would like to put out there is, your H probably has NO idea how to give you what you need. And I understand that you are waffling on not wanting anything from him.

What would life be like if your H gave you exactly what you needed in a way that you wanted it? What is it that you fear, that you might actually get this from your H?

One thing women really have a hard time understanding is that men really are dumb as stumps when it comes to women. We have no idea that we need to be present for them all the time (whenever they need us to be present for them).

So I understand your desire to stay with your H until your S leaves and to make things as emotionally safe and stable for your S.

What I do want to leave you with for the moment is:

Once you leave your H, how do you intend to get what you want from any other man? Do you expect it to magically be there?

One resistance statement to the comment above that people use is, "Well, I will be happy to live my life, alone." I would encourage you to accept that even if you claim and really believe that you may be happy to be alone, the reality is more likely to be that you will eventually have some man (or men) who begin to approach you and court you...

Will you beat them off with sticks?

Do you expect that the romance of the initial dating and honeymoon phase will last forever?

What would prevent you from using your H as an opportunity to practice for these future Rs on how to create a loving and mutually beneficial relationship?

Just to add to the above about men being dumb about women...

Men are pretty simple. For the most part, all we need to know is that our spouses are happy. That's it.

If our spouses aren't happy, we aren't happy. Eventually, if this pattern continues, we begin to feel incapable of making our wives happy... and then we stop trying...

KD, I don't mean to come across as rejecting everything. I love the feedback on my current actions, and suggestions on what I can do to not make things worse. I just know my current limitations. Physical therapy is important after an operation, but no one would expect the patient to start while the operation is still being performed. I just need a few minutes (days, weeks, months, IDK...) where I can rest from this and breathe. I can spend that whole time focusing on myself, reading, posting, etc. Even the book I'm reading right now (Sole Partner) talks a lot about what needs to be done to restore, but its focus is not that. So it's not that I'm not receptive to listening to it, I'm just not up to doing it yet. I'll file it in my head for later. The chapter I was just reading is on emotional triggers and how not to respond. That is PERFECT for me right now. It gives me a tool to shut down these conflicts. The next chapter is on defensiveness, which I'm sure I could also benefit from. And I've already got my next book ordered. This effort, working, and going to school have got my brain on overload already.

After I've had some time, perhaps then I will at least be able to imagine what a happy marriage with my H would look like, or with anybody. And with that image, I might be able to put some effort toward making it good, as opposed to just "not bad," -- later. I know it took Sandi a long time to motivate, even after she shut down her EA.

Meanwhile, does anyone have information on the conference I've heard about, maybe referred to as EE? I read a reference to it but didn't make a note and now I can't find it. It's a personal thing, not a couples/marriage thing. I thought I might like to look into that.

Quote:

One thing women really have a hard time understanding is that men really are dumb as stumps when it comes to women.

BTW, I don't think it's that hard for women to understand at all.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

KD, I don't mean to come across as rejecting everything. I love the feedback on my current actions, and suggestions on what I can do to not make things worse. I just know my current limitations. Physical therapy is important after an operation, but no one would expect the patient to start while the operation is still being performed. I just need a few minutes (days, weeks, months, IDK...) where I can rest from this and breathe. I can spend that whole time focusing on myself, reading, posting, etc. Even the book I'm reading right now (Sole Partner) talks a lot about what needs to be done to restore, but its focus is not that. So it's not that I'm not receptive to listening to it, I'm just not up to doing it yet. I'll file it in my head for later. The chapter I was just reading is on emotional triggers and how not to respond. That is PERFECT for me right now. It gives me a tool to shut down these conflicts. The next chapter is on defensiveness, which I'm sure I could also benefit from. And I've already got my next book ordered. This effort, working, and going to school have got my brain on overload already.

After I've had some time, perhaps then I will at least be able to imagine what a happy marriage with my H would look like, or with anybody. And with that image, I might be able to put some effort toward making it good, as opposed to just "not bad," -- later. I know it took Sandi a long time to motivate, even after she shut down her EA.

Meanwhile, does anyone have information on the conference I've heard about, maybe referred to as EE? I read a reference to it but didn't make a note and now I can't find it. It's a personal thing, not a couples/marriage thing. I thought I might like to look into that.

Two things, CV.

First another reading assignment for you. A novel that is an easy read called "A Year by the Sea - Thoughts of an Unfinished Woman" by Joan Anderson. Check it out, I think you'll enjoy it. And with all this reading that you are doing, you won't have time to worry about your sitch!

Second, EE stands for Essential Experience. Google "Essential Experience Philadelphia" and the first item is their website. I've not attended the seminar/experience but have heard it is life changing.

There is another program that when/if the time is right, you and your H may want to participate in. It is called Retrouville. It is a couples retreat and marriage restoration program. You can google that as well.

...correction the other program is called/spelled "Retrouvaille"

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

Quote:

One thing women really have a hard time understanding is that men really are dumb as stumps when it comes to women.

BTW, I don't think it's that hard for women to understand at all.

lol... true... true... although I can imagine how frustrating that is for women...

I do think you are doing a good job focusing on the reading and especially the topics. You are getting good support for where you are, right now. Which is why I had earlier said that I didn't feel you might be ready for any SBT. I just wanted to add some thoughts and re-emphasise that above.

As much as I appreciate that you are working things out, one more thing I would like you to think about.

How long do you want to take a break? A month? Would that be a fair amount of time for you to find your centre, again?

I don't mean to pressure, but one thing people in resistance really become good at... resistance... in the form of procrastination...

I just need a few days... a couple weeks... a few months...

Make a commitment to how long you will be in "pause and reflect mode". It doesn't have to be set in stone and you can have an extension if you need it. It is commitment that many people, when facing life changes and challenges, that people sometimes have trouble with. Make a choice and committing to those choices. Because sometimes... if we wait long enough... the problem will go away, having solved itself... ie. You wake up one morning and your H is gone and moved on with someone else.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

Is it possible that she's still thinking that you "owe" her? That your reconciliation wasn't really a clean slate but time for you to pay her back?

I really don't think so. I think at this point she feels more guilty than slighted if that makes sense.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

I'm not suggesting that she's planning on always being that way, but maybe she's just still dealing with her stuff.

I wish that were the case, MC and W both say that she's accepted her stuff and isn't going to deal with it. I don't think she's capable of more intimacy given all her stuff. I thought she was because I saw more intimacy in her affair, but MC says she did that because she knew she wouldn't have to maintain it.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

BTW, were you always the pursuer or are you just being that now? That's sort of described in the book, that the pursuer becomes the distancer when they leave or D, and then the roles reverse but just temporarily. If she was the original pursuer, it actually sounds like she's doing exactly what she's supposed to be. See if that rings true with you when you get to the chapter.

As with many relationship books, it's not that simple. When we were dating, I was clearly the pursuer. At some point in our marriage, I became the emotional distancer, but the dynamic is better described as the pursuer who has given up versus the distancer who is uncomfortable with intimacy.

This is touched on in SSM where the "rejected" sexual pursuer withdraws emotionally. I was 100% convinced that W didn't love me, had never loved me, and was either completely non-sexual or possibly gay. That's how I felt when things were at their worst and I was in distancing mode. I was not distancing because I felt pursued and didn't want the intimacy. It was more like I wanted the intimacy, knew I couldn't have it, and didn't want to get sucked into continued frustration so gave up. From my perspective, that's a different kind of distancing because I wasn't interested in "the dance", I didn't want to be pursued.

The scary thing is that I feel I'm headed back there, I'm on the road to give up again.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

In my mind, I feel like I need to go down a path to create a sitch for H like you have with your W.

This was interesting -- what does this mean? What sitch have I created for my W from your perspective?

Accuray

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Crazyville
In my mind, I feel like I need to go down a path to create a sitch for H like you have with your W.

This was interesting -- what does this mean? What sitch have I created for my W from your perspective?

I just meant that based on what I'm reading in this book, I need to create a sitch for my H like your W has created for you. That's why I went on to say that's it's completely one-sided and I can't imagine H doing it indefinitely. And you've confirmed that in your statement with concerns that you're going back there - to the land of giving up.

I'm going to hop over to your thread so I can see what's up. I'm probably talking a month behind everyone else.

KD, I'm going to think about a time, but if we haven't even gotten out of this continuous conflict stage, the time goal is sort of pointless. Probably a month after the conflict starts showing noticeable improvement. I've checked the dates for the EE conference - the next is Apr 26. I've checked the calendar and I think I'm going to do it. It will be a nice vacation if nothing else. I wish it was at a beach.

So I've read the chapters on fight triggers and defensiveness. Again, the author could have inserted our names into almost all of the scenarios. It's so humbling. It's all so embarrassingly obvious when someone spells it all out like that. Even moreso when we keep doing it even after we know what we're doing.

So, we had a defensive exchange this morning (H attacking, me defending.) I didn't realize it until afterward, when I thought about it. I was still in bed, so maybe I just wasn't awake enough. Even thinking about it, though, I'm not sure how it could have been handled any better. Here's the convo:

(H comes to my BR, I'm still in bed....)
H: If I get S to hustle, I can drop him off at school this morning (it's usually something I do.)
W: That's alright, I need to get up anyway. Paul is coming this morning to look at the furnace.
H: You were going to tell me when he was coming
W: I did tell you. I told you yesterday that if he couldn't make it then, he would be coming today.
H: Well you didn't give me a specific time
W: I don't have a specific time
H: Well I have a meeting at 8:00 so I don't know if I can be here. I can still drop off S if I hurry.
W: Get to your meeting, it's no big deal, I'll drop him off.

How could this have been handled differently? I have a hard time distinguishing the difference between defensiveness and just sharing information. At least I didn't attack back, even though it was just below the surface, like if he was so concerned about what went on with the furnace, then perhaps he could have taken responsibility for it himself, etc. etc. I mean the thing is broken. It's not like I'm wanting to redecorate it.

Anyway, I definitely felt attacked. I believe I went defensive. What could I have done differently?

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

So, we had a defensive exchange this morning (H attacking, me defending.) I didn't realize it until afterward, when I thought about it. I was still in bed, so maybe I just wasn't awake enough. Even thinking about it, though, I'm not sure how it could have been handled any better. Here's the convo:

(H comes to my BR, I'm still in bed....)
H: If I get S to hustle, I can drop him off at school this morning (it's usually something I do.)
W: That's alright, I need to get up anyway. Paul is coming this morning to look at the furnace.
H: You were going to tell me when he was coming
W: I did tell you. I told you yesterday that if he couldn't make it then, he would be coming today.
H: Well you didn't give me a specific time
W: I don't have a specific time
H: Well I have a meeting at 8:00 so I don't know if I can be here. I can still drop off S if I hurry.
W: Get to your meeting, it's no big deal, I'll drop him off.

How could this have been handled differently? I have a hard time distinguishing the difference between defensiveness and just sharing information. At least I didn't attack back, even though it was just below the surface, like if he was so concerned about what went on with the furnace, then perhaps he could have taken responsibility for it himself, etc. etc. I mean the thing is broken. It's not like I'm wanting to redecorate it.

Anyway, I definitely felt attacked. I believe I went defensive. What could I have done differently?

I think it is what was said or done yesterday that triggered what occurred this morning. So not so much what you could have done differently today in the heat of the moment but what could you have done yesterday to head off a potential conflict.

Think about how your H appears to need plenty of prep time. BTW, this has come up in prior posts here so think about that. He seems to need clear and precise information in order for him to process properly.

Also, you normally take son to school but here your H is saying he would. So, why not let him do it and thank him for it. Then he feels good about doing something that helped you and you have more time to prepare for the furnace repairman AND you might have also dampened some of the conflict that began to surface in the interaction.

Just some things to consider, CV.

Okay, so Monday's conversation went like this.

W: H, the main floor furnace it not working. Here's what I know (went through details, thermostat is working, fan is blowing, other furnace is working fine, gas is flowing, no flame, circuit breaker not flipped, etc.) I've called Paul to see if he can come out. I told him it's not an emergency since we have zoned heating and it hasn't been that cold. He said he'll try to make it tomorrow (Tuesday) but he has something going on so he might not be able to make it until Wednesday morning. I also asked him to look at the hot water heater while he's here.
H: Okay, well I'd like to be here when he's here, so will you let me know when he gets here?
W: Sure.

Tuesday, H asked if he had made it here and I said he hadn't.

FYI: Paul is my uncle. He works in heating and cooling. H and he had a conversation at Christmas about his replacing our hot water heater. Paul is not some sort of suspicious deviant or threat.

In regards to H dropping off son, I think I take issue with the drama that H seems to always pad with his offers. He could have just offered to take son to school. But he has to pad it with his herculean effort. "If I get S to hustle..." = ride S to hurry, engage with him in unpleasant conflict, or "I have a meeting, but I might still be able to drop him off if I hurry" = I'm willing to endanger my job, and it will take significant effort, but I'll do it.

I can't begin to value his effort nearly as much as he does. I feel like I'm setting myself up for an attack, because if I agree to let him, I don't believe I will be able to reciprocate at the level he will expect me to. And he WILL expect me to.

Has your H ever told you that he resents you for letting him do something that he's offered to do?

It also appears that you and your H may have different viewpoints on how to raise your S. This is normal. Why is that a problem?

Oh, and also...

While you may feel your H is inconvenienced, even though he offered...

he also goes on to ask for your help... asking you to support him... engaging you in a way that connects the two of you... he just doesn't happen to be asking you in a way that you are receptive to... and then you go into resistance as though it's inconvenient for you...

Do you see the pattern? How else does that show up in your life?

I read into that that he said he'd like to be there when Paul comes, and you said you'd tell him when Paul gets there.

Your morning conversation implied that you'd talked to Paul about coming in the morning, but had not updated H. I read nothing more into that than a misunderstanding. You had actually not talked to Paul, but just assumed he was coming in the morning based on the conversation you did have. That would have been one thing to clear up right away -- "H, I haven't spoken to Paul again. I assume he's coming this morning. I know you said you wanted to be here, but I don't know what time he's coming. I can give you his number if you want to call him."

WRT the drama surrounding his dropoff request, my H would read things into my offers in the same way. My IC told me that is "crazymaking" -- you're attaching an interpretation to his words that may not be there at all. He could be talking while he was thinking versus trying to demonstrate the effort he would have to make.

The "assume the best intentions" strategy would suggest you should be grateful for the offer and accept it as such versus reading in sinister motives.

If H then later comes looking for payback, post about that. You assume he will, and maybe for good reason, but if you want help with your own communication dynamics, for now let's assume goodwill and let H prove otherwise, and then share that.

If you did let H take S to school and told him you appreciate it, that would be a deposit in his love tank. He would feel like a good provider, he would feel like a good husband. He would feel like a partner in S's care. That good feeling might foster a positive cycle to start spinning where he would do something else nice in anticipation of a positive or supportive response.

It's when a negative response comes when a positive one was expected that you're going to see him start keeping score and expecting reciprocity.

WRT putting H in the same situation my W put me in, I don't suggest it. All W had to do was tell me that she wasn't happy in the marriage and I would have taken action. The affair and divorce request were completely unnecessary if she wanted to see change. She said nothing and made no complaint until she said she wanted a divorce.

Accuray

Quote:

Has your H ever told you that he resents you for letting him do something that he's offered to do?

Was this supposed to be resents me for NOT letting him?

Quote:

It also appears that you and your H may have different viewpoints on how to raise your S. This is normal. Why is that a problem?

We do pretty well, actually. Probably the one area in life we don't argue about. We will occasionally have a discussion, but it's the only time I feel like we're on the same team and no one is attacking or defensive. The only time issues come up is when H fails on what he committed to do (eg. misses a boy scout meeting)

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he also goes on to ask for your help... asking you to support him... engaging you in a way that connects the two of you... he just doesn't happen to be asking you in a way that you are receptive to... and then you go into resistance as though it's inconvenient for you...

What did he ask my help with? What support? He only asked me to call him when Paul came, which I agreed to and then did this a.m. when he showed. I don't see the pattern. Sorry, I'm not following.

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You had actually not talked to Paul, but just assumed he was coming in the morning based on the conversation you did have. That would have been one thing to clear up right away. "H, I haven't spoken to Paul again. I assume he's coming this morning. I know you said you wanted to be here, but I don't know what time he's coming. I can give you his number if you want to call him."

In my first convo with H, I did tell him that Paul would optionally come Wed morning. I didn't talk to him again to change anything. To your response, this still sounds defensive to me. It sounds like the same thing I said only using more words.

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The "assume the best intentions" strategy would suggest you should be grateful for the offer and accept it as such versus reading in sinister motives.

Even if I look at his motives as being completely well-intentioned, his presentation just exhausts me. Even if he's just thinking outloud, the effort it seems it will take for him to do it just makes me want to say no (that's not even considering whether he'll be successful at doing it.) It's like me offering to buy you a cup of coffee, then explaining that I'll have to forgo my OWN cup of coffee, and go out and dig through the car to come up with the change, probably be late for work and have to skip lunch because of it, and ... or you could just pay 99cents yourself. Wouldn't you just say, "No, thanks, really!"? Do you remember the character Cliff Claven on Cheers? He was just annoying in that sort of way, regardless of his "intentions."

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If you did let H take S to school and told him you appreciate it, that would be a deposit in his love tank. He would feel like a good provider, he would feel like a good husband. He would feel like a partner in S's care. That good feeling might foster a positive cycle to start spinning where he would do something else nice in anticipation of a positive or supportive response.
It's when a negative response comes when a positive one was expected that you're going to see him start keeping score and expecting reciprocity.

This is VERY interesting to me. I will chew on this. My reaction to this is, fine, so I give him a positive response, but then he'll keep doing it "because it worked," when it's not what I want him to do in the first place. I don't want to encourage something that I don't want by responding positively.

Funny story, I learned this years ago with our previous dog. She wasn't a barker. But after much trial and error, we taught her how to "speak" for a treat! We were so proud! Until she started speaking for treats when SHE wanted to, rather than when she was prompted. Needless to say, our current dog does NOT know the speak command.

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WRT putting H in the same situation my W put me in, I don't suggest it. All W had to do was tell me that she wasn't happy in the marriage and I would have taken action.

I was just responding to the instruction in the book regarding a distancer needing to be cut off. I don't think it's the same for your sitch.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

Even if I look at his motives as being completely well-intentioned, his presentation just exhausts me. Even if he's just thinking outloud, the effort it seems it will take for him to do it just makes me want to say no

You can't own that. You have to let that go. Even if its hard for him, if he wants to do it, let him do it. If he did you 50 "favors" and you only cared about two of them, you're still getting 2 favors and the other 48 didn't hurt. The point is, feeling like a good provider and being appreciated for it makes men feel good. If it doesn't cost you much to cultivate that, then do it.

My MC talked about an interesting dynamic in any relationship. He said that when you got married, let's say you both did the dishes. One of you might only be 5 seconds faster at doing them. That 5 second differential is going to lead the better person to take it on more often and therefore get better at it, whereas the slower person will be more likely to defer and therefore get worse. You then get polarized where the slow one *never* does the dishes because it's too painful for the fast one to watch, yet the fast one feels trapped into the task. All it takes is a slight difference to get that divide going. If you want to break that, the faster person has to sit on their hands and shut their mouth and let the slower person work through it.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

It's like me offering to buy you a cup of coffee, then explaining that I'll have to forgo my OWN cup of coffee, and go out and dig through the car to come up with the change, probably be late for work and have to skip lunch because of it, and ... or you could just pay 99cents yourself. Wouldn't you just say, "No, thanks, really!"? Do you remember the character Cliff Claven on Cheers? He was just annoying in that sort of way, regardless of his "intentions."

Yeah I get it, it's like "enough already!" That said, I think you have to look at this phase as transitional to establish a new norm, so try tolerating it for a while. Try to hear that as "blah blah blah...I'll buy you a cup of coffee...blah blah blah". Then when it comes, say thank you.

I'm just saying try it.

WRT my sitch, whenever anyone suggests they're going to put someone through what I went through, I start to shake and dive for the nearest ditch, so yes, I'm a little sensitive on that point!

Accuray

There, I just sent him a text thanking him for filling my gas tank when he used my car this weekend. I suspect I already had when he did it, but I did it again anyway.

Nice! Now don't go running into the hills because he responds favorably to the kind words from you. Accept that he may feel good about your words of affirmation.

Little steps....

He just texted back. He said, "You are welcome. It may be small but it is something I can tend to."

Now I'm going to go work on not running for the hills.

Does it still count if I just leave early for school? Like an hour and a half early?

Enjoy your extra time.

I do think he really wants to please you. He just hasn't figured out how to do it your way. Let him do it his way, get that feeling good, and then start your training through gentle nudges rather than a rolled-up newspaper!

Accuray

Me likey!!! ^^^^

I hear you. He wants to please me. His way. It has always been his way.

I just hope you all are still around when I actually DO want to get into "training" him. I've never been successful at training him anything. Maybe later on you can help me with how to do that.

Right now, I don't want to get back into a bunch of discussions of the ways I can make him happy. I threw him a bone, but I'm still working on me. I'm also still digesting his attack from this morning.

I wasn't there to hear the tone or read the body language, but I'm not seeing an attack here:

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

H: If I get S to hustle, I can drop him off at school this morning (it's usually something I do.)
W: That's alright, I need to get up anyway. Paul is coming this morning to look at the furnace.
H: You were going to tell me when he was coming
W: I did tell you. I told you yesterday that if he couldn't make it then, he would be coming today.
H: Well you didn't give me a specific time
W: I don't have a specific time
H: Well I have a meeting at 8:00 so I don't know if I can be here. I can still drop off S if I hurry.
W: Get to your meeting, it's no big deal, I'll drop him off.

At worst I see a mild complaint, perhaps it came across as accusatory, but in any case it seems minor -- he thought you were going to tell him when Paul was going to arrive so he could be home, and he *thought* you had made arrangements with Paul without telling him. That's all I read into it. "Hey, I didn't talk to Paul, I just assume he'll be here, give him a call if you want" kind of takes that off the table.

How did you read that as an attack? Was it his tone, his body language? What was it?

I also read this into it:

1) The furnace was broken and either he didn't notice it or ignored it
2) You made the arrangements to have it fixed by your relative, presumably for free or inexpensively
3) He complained about the way you handled that, when in fact you were taking care of everything

These are just ideas, don't take them as criticisms or telling you that you should have done something else:

When you noticed the furnace was broken, you could have discussed it with him -- "Hey did you notice the furnace is broken? Will you take a look at it for me?"

"Maybe we can get Paul to take a look at it, do you want to deal with it or should I?"

You know, involve him up-front, let him feel like he had a chance to participate. That will make him less likely to feel steamrolled or useless, and therefore he'll be less likely to complain. If you give him the chance to step up and he doesn't, he'll be less likely to complain about how you handled it later.

Accuray

Attack/defense is just the terminology from the book. It talks about using "I" statements instead of "accusatory 'you'" statements. His statements were both "you" statements about my actions. I wasn't implying it was huge, just taken back by the obviousness of it, now that my eyes have been opened. So I'm reflecting on it, trying to determine what I could do different, trying to figure out the difference between sharing information and defensiveness.

He didn't complain about my taking care of the furnace. In fact, he thanked me and said, "Well done." The only reason I let him know when Paul got here today is because he wants to be "involved." Not helpful, particularly from anyone else's veiwpoint, but involved. I certainly didn't need him to be home. I did that only for him, to address his need.

I could have set him up to handle the furnace, but honestly, there are so many things around here that need to be dealt with that I just needed this one to get done. Taxes are a great example. We usually do it ourselves, so he has already purchased TurboTax and then immediately set it on my desk. Every year, he says he wants to do it "this year." Every year, I'm doing it the second week of April because he hasn't. HE is the one with the accounting degree. HE is the one that should be doing it. If I remind him, he says, "Oh, yeah, I need to get on that. This weekend!" But then he never does. Eventually, I'm just nagging. Our R is riddled with this, but I don't want to get into the mode of venting again. Just telling you why I took care of it myself.

So, because I'm reading books like crazy, I've got many topics running through my head. My posts will be somewhat random. Sorry!

Tonight I read about how important it is for men to feel respected, which goes in line with a number of recent posts to me. At the same time, you all are asking me to give H some things that he can do for me. Well, in order for me to begin to respect him, he needs to stop telling me how remedial he is, what an idiot he is, how incompetent he is. I don't want to hear it. Also, I don't want to hear that he's "trying." If he really is trying, then he can try without tell me. Otherwise, all I see is his failure when he tried but didn't succeed. I really don't need to see it.

Can I tell him these things? If so, how?

Well, all I can say is, the instructor in my microeconomics class might just be the best thing ever for my marriage.

CV,

I asked before why you are in such great pain. You declined to answer, saying you wanted to work on changing you in the present.

But, the bitterness, hostility, pettiness, anger, huge disrespect (funny you wrote about that last night because I was going to post about it yesterday), irritability, grasping superiority, judgmentalness, dismissiveness, withholdingness, condescension, and vigilant hyper-criticalness you have toward H floods every interaction you have with him. It also shapes every reaction you have to a suggestion or comment someone makes to you on this board.

Look, you say you want to work on yourself. Then do it. Until you address the deep pain you are in to get yourself into the place you are with H, not much in your life or your R will change.

Soooooo much of what you are reacting to in H is really all about you. Your interactions with H could have been mine with XH. It is VERY hard to see that so many of your issues with H are about things entirely different from what you think and many of the are just with yourself. While you are in such pain, you will continue to despise H.

So, again, why are you in such great pain?

And, I really think these would be great books for you:

Reinventing Your Life: The Breakthough Program to End Negative Behavior...and FeelGreat Again

Conquer Your Critical Inner Voice: A Revolutionary Program to Counter Negative Thoughts and Live Free from Imagined Limitations

--------

As for how to tell H you think he is an unmanly weak idiot and that he needs to change if he wants a thimbleful of respect from you, don't.

Instead, try treating him like a strong, manly, intelligent guy who you respect.

CV: H, it would be so great for me if you can install this shelf.
H: Well, yeah, let me try.
CV: Excellent!
H: I dunno if I can figure it out, the diagram is confusing.

CV: I know � why can't they get better illustrators! Seriously, I trust you. I know you can do just as good a job as me, probably better. It is tricky and I'm not going to freak out if it isn't perfect. I really appreciate you trying and you can always pull me in as a second set of hands if you need one. Just let me know, and I'll be at your service. And, btw, it really turns me on when you fix stuff for me. Isn't that crazy, lol?

Give H a chance to shine.

--------

As for taxes, if he has said he is going to do them this year, let him and trust him to do so. Taxes can be submitted late. Forms can be amended. No disaster looms. Let him be. You can totally avoid putting on your controlling B hat. Indeed, eliminate it from your R wardrobe altogether.

Create emotional space for yourself so you can do this. Have a plan if it looks like taxes won't be filed by midnight. At 11:30, just say: "Hey, for my own sake, I am going to zap my tax stress and file an extension electronically (with a generous overpayment to make sure we're covered if necessary). Cool with you?"

Between now and 11:30 on tax day, IGNORE the taxes. H is doing them. They get done or they don't. If they don't, you have a plan. So, between now and then, LET IT GO. Say nothing to H about the taxes. If he asks for help with anything, help him graciously with enthusiasm. Be a good partner. If he is panicking about not finishing on time at some point, only then might you make the suggestion about filing an extension to get breathing room as a good partner. Otherwise, GIVE HIM SPACE TO TAKE CARE OF IT HIMSELF.

You don't need to nag or manage or interfere or disrespect him. No disaster will strike. Leave him be. Promise yourself that you will manage your own tax stress without taking it out on him. When you feel the urge to act, remind yourself that you have made a very conscious choice to grow here and to give H space to grow. It is your choice to do this and you made that choice for good reason. There is no reason to control or panic. Disaster does not loom. An extension is very easy to file.

Make crystal clear in a loving way that you are staying out of taxes this year. Surprise him with the tax software, a bottle of wine, his favorite treat, and a card that says: "H, it's all yours this year! I promise to stay out of it and not stress. Just ask if you need anything, otherwise I am hands-off. Thanks! You're the best."

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But, the bitterness, hostility, pettiness, anger, huge disrespect (funny you wrote about that last night because I was going to post about it yesterday), irritability, grasping superiority, judgmentalness, dismissiveness, withholdingness, condescension, and vigilant hyper-criticalness you have toward H floods every interaction you have with him.

If you really believe this, then please STOP asking me to interact with him at this time. I feel like you're completely contradicting yourself. I can't possibly pull off what you're suggesting, because every interaction I have with him will be flooded with this list of negativity.

BTW, I'll look into the books you've suggested. I'm going through a book about every two days. Might as well add a few to the list.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

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But, the bitterness, hostility, pettiness, anger, huge disrespect (funny you wrote about that last night because I was going to post about it yesterday), irritability, grasping superiority, judgmentalness, dismissiveness, withholdingness, condescension, and vigilant hyper-criticalness you have toward H floods every interaction you have with him.

If you really believe this, then please STOP asking me to interact with him at this time. I feel like you're completely contradicting yourself. I can't possibly pull off what you're suggesting, because every interaction I have with him will be flooded with this list of negativity.

Absolutely it is challenging to change how you present when it is just hard to express different thoughts and questions than you usually do. Sometimes it is so hard for me to communicate something to DH that it comes out horribly despite my best intentions, even when I am aware of the problem when my thoughts involve something that connects to old pain. This happens even when I am very clear personally that the pain producing the negative body language and tone has an internal source, it is not because of DH or coming from him. So yes, it is hard to change how we present when we struggle with pain.

You CAN use email and cards and text messages to eliminate the body language and tone problems, as well as giving you a chance to edit yourself. I can talk to DH pretty well now about hard things, but I had to learn how to do so in a more detached way. Email that you craft to convey what you really want to convey helps with this.

You CAN be aware of how your own stuff colors your perceptions of H and interactions with him and try to do better.

You CAN do better for yourself and your H and your R. You can apologize when something comes out badly: "Oh geez, that sounded like blah blah and that is so not what I meant to convey..."

But nothing changes until it changes. In particular, you won't change until you change.

I guess I want to point out once again -- I am the WAW. I'm the one who is done. I'm the one doing everything I possibly can to figure out if I even WANT to try again. I'm really trying to want to. I'm first trying to work on me because I'm not really even receptive to engaging with H, much less able to do it in a positive way.

I guess I wish everyone could speak to me as if I was Crimson's wife. That is where I'm at right now, shy the formal D. I can't imagine any of these posts being said to her, and then expecting their M to R. I suspect she would say, "DUH! Of course I'm angry!" then flip you the bird and walk away. At the same time, Crimson has done a 180, whereas my H has not.

You may be absolutely right in everything you're saying, OT, but you must consider your audience.

CV - please try to bear with the posters. You are receiving a tremendous amount of attention, all of it well intended. Absorb what you can on your own time. We'll still be here nudging you along every step of the way.

I put out a call earlier this morning for someone to drop by your thread. Hopefully she'll show up soon and you and her and all of us can continue to provided each other the support we all so badly need.

BTW, I am really impressed with the insight you are providing to others are the forum. The fact that you are already paying forward to others in such a meaningful way, is simply amazing.

Hang in there!!

I do understand, 2TP, and I do appreciate the time people have put into this. I also COMPLETELY understand that I am in at least a somewhat unique situation for this board. A lot of the advice has been very helpful, or at minimum something that I can hear and file away for later. But I do have a really hard time hearing that I should be telling my H, "And, btw, it really turns me on when you fix stuff for me" right now, for example, when I have a hard time even being in the same room with him. And being scolded for having all the characteristics of a WAS, when that's exactly what I recognize myself and claim to be, is unhelpful at best.

I know my limitations. I'm just trying to bring it back to center.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

KD, I don't mean to come across as rejecting everything. I love the feedback on my current actions, and suggestions on what I can do to not make things worse. I just know my current limitations. ---- The chapter I was just reading is on emotional triggers and how not to respond. That is PERFECT for me right now. It gives me a tool to shut down these conflicts.---
--- I know it took Sandi a long time to motivate, even after she shut down her EA.

Meanwhile, does anyone have information on the conference I've heard about, maybe referred to as EE? I read a reference to it but didn't make a note and now I can't find it. It's a personal thing, not a couples/marriage thing. I thought I might like to look into that.

Yes I do...and there is a website.

Essential Experience is a workshop in Philadelphia that changed my life and my h's and some others around here, like Autumn Leave's and every single person I know who has attended and done it. Check their website. Crazy, I read your thread and I kept telling myself that EE is about the only thing I believe will help you...

why? B/c you have a tremendous amount of rage and no ability to forgive b/c you don't know how and NEITHER DID I...I never saw it growing up for one thing and plus I didn't think my h "deserved" it. Took me a long time to realize that holding onto my anger to punish h was like lighting myself on fire to get smoke in his eyes.

My anger was consuming ME... I needed to let it all go and learn to truly forgive.

EE is a 3-4 day workshop/personal growth experience you cannot BS or rehearse for. IT's run by very well qualified experts and therapists and you will gain clarity and peace if you trust their process and work it.

weekly therapy was good, but inefficient (to me) for changing your life b/c whenever I got an insight or breakthrough, I then had to go pick up the kids or go back to work...and start all over the next week.

plus EE is designed to elicit insights from you in a way that regular therapy won't. THere is Forgivness work I think you would get a lot out of. And you will leave with clarity and peace.

And it's the most supportive environment you'll find anywhere.

I cannot overstate how much it did for us.

Sorry if I sound like an Amway salesman and no, I don't get a kickback for saying this. There is one in April I think. But they fill up fast.

Good luck

I did it b/c of issues I had apart from my m/husband. I didn't expect him to do it but once I was there I hoped he would for HIS sake.

And the changes he saw in me led him to go a few months later.

And we have permanently been better for it. Not b/c of "marriage counselling" but b/c we each worked on ourselves so much and were also able to accept the other person as they are, (yet each has made effort to be better to the other).

IS it all perfect? No, life's not that way. We have had some real curve balls tossed our way lately, and will again.

What EE gives you, are the TOOLS for that. Tools we did not get growing up.

I really hope you go and let me know if you do.
(( ))

I am interested in it. I've already checked into it and I believe I have an open schedule. I have some real butts for instructors this semester that I have to work with, but I think it's looking good.

Thanks for your reference on it. Can you tell me what the accommodations are? Like do I need a rental car?

don't get weirded out, you can either make a hotel reservation or trust the community to provide. Show up and make your needs known, unless you prefer the solitude of a hotel.

CV,

If you don't find your H's fixing things a turn-on, then don't say it. That is very far from the point.

You seem to think what I write is about H and about H's interests. It isn't. What I write is all about YOU for your OWN sake. I don't know your H, I have no opinion about whether he is a decent guy. I have no opinion as to whether you should stay with him or not. I will almost surely never have any interaction with him.

I've been posting here for 10 years. I'm remarried, I have a 5 year old child. I'm not into the whole LBS/WAS thing. In particular, I'm not into coddling WASs OR LBSs. Neither "side" is the morally superior, neither side is "right" or "wrong." The biggest differences are (1) timing and (2) ability to own one's own stuff.

In any M with a WAS, the M [censored]. When LBS's on these boards get past the huge trauma of being bombed, they eventually admit it. An M doesn't just suck for one person, it [censored] for both people. One of the people is going to reach their limit first. That person becomes the WAS. The other person becomes the WAS.

Now, as a matter of fact, I think the LBS's are the luckier ones. The bomb trauma immediately shakes one up -- you are groundless, without the self you know, without your life. It is hard not to look inward. Most LBSs emerge stronger, better, compassionate people, no matter how things turn out. They learn much quicker to own their own stuff.

WASs however do not experience the huge loss for quite a long while. This is because while the WAS really IS gone from the LBS, the WAS also knows that the LBS is theirs for the plucking. The WASs do not have the sudden jarring to the system that puts things into perspective like the LBSs get. They continue to externalize their stuff, which is what you are doing. You take your pain and assign its cause to your husband.

But, of course, this too is a matter of timing. Because at some point the LBS will catch up. At some point the LBS will be just as done with the WAS as vice versa. It is at this point, the WAS wake up and begin the real introspective work. If the LBS lets go soon enough, maybe the M is saved. Maybe. Otherwise, there is a point of too much water under the bridge. The LBS lets go after D, the WAS is already remarried. Blah blah blah.

My point is this: You are simply ahead of your H in timing. To have a good life for yourself and a successful R with ANYONE, you are BOTH going to have to change A LOT. You can do that now, later, or never.

But, if you honestly want to know whether or not your M is worth saving, YOU have to be a person capable of a decent R. Until you are, YOU cannot see if your M is worth saving. Running away will not change you. This is ALL ABOUT YOU.

Do you really want to be the person I described? Until you learn to deal with and own your own stuff, you'll not find the better life you quite reasonably want for yourself.

So, rather that going into reactive B mode anytime anyone suggests something that might involve treating H with some modicum of decency, why not think about that suggestion as a way to change yourself? As a way to learn how to be a better, happier person yourself?

You are in pain. You want to make sure that H pays for it and are willing to do anything that might give him the slightest relief. You defend blindly against treating H with humanity.

I don't believe you want to be that person, whether or not you reconcile, or you wouldn't be posting here. So why not start taking steps to be who you want to be?

And, again, the simple question: why are you in such pain?

Can you not even label the pain, is it that hard to face? I understand if it is. I've been there. But nothing, including running from H, will get you where you want to be until you confront it.

I really like this ^^^^ analysis by OT.

Some people think I waited for my h for 2 years. I didn't.

He went off to the tundra and I filed for a sep to protect our assets and get our older d thru high school.

I was pretty done. I REALLY GAL big time. I accepted that the m was over. I eventually became pretty darn happy and at peace with my new life, discreetly began dating after the first year, so it took some hard work from h

for me to even consider reconciling.

So as OT is saying, I became the WAS, after being the LBS. And once I had truly let him go,

he sure seemed to wake up. He had the awakening I had. But that was never my goal b/c I believed we were done.

Hope what OT says makes sense to you b/c I also agree that you are externalizing so much of what is happening in you. And the LBS absolutely grows more than the typical WAS. Unless the LBSer stays stuck in the blame game. That can happen.

I got sick and tired of mc's telling me h was "being selfish" and "acting single" b/c that just meant I was "right, but powerless."

You SAY you want to know what TO DO and you do not want to go into detail about the exact nature of your interactions. That would have helped us advise.

In the interactions you do describe, I must say I find your behavior as unproductive as his is, and this is based on Your words here, not his. So I hope you'll take that in.

And note, almost every suggested course of action is rejected by you. "Too hard" or you are just not there yet or there's some reason you won't or can't.

I am not sure if you have taken ANY of the advice about what to DO.

Have you? I'm curious. What do you make of that?

It is hard to know what you really want. There are NO EASY solutions and no one will "declare you right". I used to actually want that. Now I see how obstructive that approach was, to real progress.

This isn't about being right, it's about being happy. Lose the scorecard.

In his world, he has his own scorecard and you are Not ahead. In his world, he's trying not to hurt you, but you seem angry at him often, and you seem to set him up for failure. You disrespect him and it shines/shows clearly that you feel little love for him (love that you are in touch with at least.)

How do you think HE feels? I mean have you really tried to empathize with him?

I think you are shaking your head now and telling yourself that we all "just don't get it" and that he is so offensive to you, all you want is something to hold onto...

but we keep saying the answer is INSIDE YOU, not him. Here is my main point-

The more you blame him and hold yourself harmless, the more powerLESS you are.

Do you see that?

Only by owning your issues (such as, hypothetically, being critical and judgemental) are you empowered to DO anything.

Otherwise it's all about getting HIM to change--and you cannot do that,

OR we can tell you it's over, and give you permission to leave him.

There are no secrets for finding peace in a mediocre marriage. I can't make you want to want it to work. I have been in that place and if there were no kids I'd have completed the divorce and not seen h again unless he chased me down somewhere.

But there are kids and so I listened and I worked on forgiving and letting go of the past b/c at some point it's like the vows say

"from this day forward" and letting go is essential.

It's never easy to repair damaged r's, but forgiveness is mandatory in ALL lasting marriages. Take that in...

But forgiveness is a learned skill. And it's a gift we give ourselves. Do you accept that?

IOW, his behavior or remorse, or lack thereof, is NOT relevant to you forgiving him. You letting go of the rage, IS relevant. And it's for you. You sound consumed by it and I have been there, done that.

When my anger consumed me, I was a LESS involved parent at a time when my d's needed me more. I was preoccupied and in pain. I wrongly believed that h and I had to agree on our marital history and our past.

We don't. All we have to do is agree on our future and again, "from this day forward."

If you keep acting defrauded by your h, and believe the only mistake you made was in choosing him, then

you are missing the opportunity for personal growth

that is the single good thing about being in this horrible situation.

It is [i]that personal growth from tragedy and our inward journeys, /i] that so many LBSers discuss here, that has lead us to the most contented time in our lives.

Don't let the one decent thing this situation offers you, painful growth from introspection and relationship work, fade out b/c you refuse to look deep within.

I believe if your h is as bad as you say and you are not seething or waiting to pounce on him then clearly he's not worth it. You are posting here, perhaps,

b/c you think there might be something in you that COULD love him again.

Make sense?

Finally, how does he get along with your sons? How do you think they feel about him?

They seem to enjoy his company since they want both of you at things. So, that means something, right?

First, I just want to say that I really appreciate the effort that you all are putting into me. You're obviously frustrated with me. I hope you don't give up. I'm not getting it, but that doesn't mean I don't want to. I've read the above posts 3 times already, I'm sure I'll read them again. You keep telling me that I need to work on myself, but that's exactly what I keep saying I want to do. Mostly, I don't even want to talk about H, so I'm not sure where the issue with that lies.

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So, rather that going into reactive B mode anytime anyone suggests something that might involve treating H with some modicum of decency, why not think about that suggestion as a way to change yourself? As a way to learn how to be a better, happier person yourself?

How does that work? I'm not chewing on him, I've simply retreated. I still manage to do decent things, as you put it. I'm baking cookies for him to take camping this weekend, and had plans for that before reading these posts. I had done this throughout our M, yet it still flat-lined because my lovebank was overdrawn. How does doing something someone suggests for my H make me a better, happier person?

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You are in pain. You want to make sure that H pays for it and are willing to do anything that might give him the slightest relief. You defend blindly against treating H with humanity.

Can you be specific? Again, I'm not mean, I just want to get away. I'm just trying to breathe myself. Whether I think it's his doing or my doing, I at least need to get my feet on solid ground. How I am making him pay for it?

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And, again, the simple question: why are you in such pain?

Can you not even label the pain, is it that hard to face? I understand if it is. I've been there. But nothing, including running from H, will get you where you want to be until you confront it.

This is not a simple question. I wouldn't say that I am in pain except for what he has done to me. Are you looking for me to say that I'm in pain because I stumbled across his secret EA with his college sweetheart? That it hurt to read the words he was exchanging with her? That it hurt when I confronted him and he lied about it, until I handed him a printout? That the thing that hurt worst of all is when he told me it was no big deal, because she lived two states away and it hadn't gotten physical, and that I was being unreasonable? Do you want me to say that I'm in pain because that incident and a half-dozen like it give me reason to not trust my H, and I don't know how to build a marriage w/o trust? I don't know what pain you're looking for me to admit to.

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You SAY you want to know what TO DO and you do not want to go into detail about the exact nature of your interactions. That would have helped us advise.

Dredging up the past is counter to SBT. We've done MC for years, and I'm personally just tired of revisiting it. I've been trying to give you IRL play-by-plays and looking for feedback. What is it that you would like to know that you feel that I'm not telling you that you feel would help the current sitch?

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In the interactions you do describe, I must say I find your behavior as unproductive as his is, and this is based on Your words here, not his. So I hope you'll take that in.

And note, almost every suggested course of action is rejected by you. "Too hard" or you are just not there yet or there's some reason you won't or can't.

I am not sure if you have taken ANY of the advice about what to DO.

Have you? I'm curious. What do you make of that?

First, if I play out something then post the interaction, I can't go back and "redo" it, so any advice I get has to be something that I apply going forward for "the next time." In that case, there won't be any immediate action. I've gotten advice on books to read, which I either have done or at least ordered the book and I'm waiting. I had already looked into the EE conference before OT responded (someone else already had.) I had already looked at the calendar and talked with H last night about going. I planned to order tickets today.

The only things I feel like I haven't received well are comments that involve engaging with H in some fluffy manner, and I can't pull that off without it coming across completely forced, because that's what it would be. What other advice have I been given that I'm not following?

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In his world, he has his own scorecard and you are Not ahead. In his world, he's trying not to hurt you, but you seem angry at him often, and you seem to set him up for failure. You disrespect him and it shines/shows clearly that you feel little love for him (love that you are in touch with at least.)

How do you think HE feels? I mean have you really tried to empathize with him?

His scorecard does say that I'm ahead. He feels remorse, right now. He realizes what he did wrong. But he also forgives himself very easily (I wish I had that talent.) Except then he just does the same thing again. Why are we talking about him again, if my focus should be on me?

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The more you blame him and hold yourself harmless, the more powerLESS you are.

Do you see that?

Only by owning your issues (such as, hypothetically, being critical and judgemental) are you empowered to DO anything.

Otherwise it's all about getting HIM to change--and you cannot do that,

I mentioned in a very short post that my micro instructor might be the best thing for my M. I didn't elaborate, perhaps I should have. I can see myself in him, at least things that my H has had a hard time putting into words. I'm find the same difficulty putting it into words myself. But my point is, I came up with that. I noticed. I am focusing on my issues, even when no one is prodding me. I'm tempted to drop the class, but I've already decided that the lesson he teaches unintentionally about my role in my R will be well worth it, even if I flunk the subject matter. The thing is, I belong to another board that I can bash my H all day long if I want, and everyone there will tell me what a jerk he is, but I haven't even logged on there in months because that doesn't accomplish anything. The easiest way for me to focus on me, is to not talk about him here, and not engage with him more than necessary in order to avoid conflict that I might blame on him.

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But there are kids and so I listened and I worked on forgiving and letting go of the past b/c at some point it's like the vows say

"from this day forward" and letting go is essential.

It's never easy to repair damaged r's, but forgiveness is mandatory in ALL lasting marriages. Take that in...

But forgiveness is a learned skill. And it's a gift we give ourselves. Do you accept that?

I get that forgiveness is for the forgiver, not the forgiven. But forgiveness doesn't make it not hurt. And forgiveness doesn't change what you now know about the person. I read a quote once that said, "Sure, I'm good enough to forgive you, I'm just not stupid enough to trust you again." This is coarse, but I get the point, especially when the person has done nothing to change the behavior that caused it. This is the "mushrooms" in our marriage. H doesn't like M. I know that about him. I don't even have to "forgive" him, since there's nothing to forgive, but it changes our interactions (eg. We don't share dishes that contain mushrooms.) I believe knowledge, not lack of forgiveness, is what redefines a relationship. Just like now I KNOW that he still has significant feelings for his college sweetheart.

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Finally, how does he get along with your sons? How do you think they feel about him?

They seem to enjoy his company since they want both of you at things. So, that means something, right?

Of course S loves him. That's not a good barometer. Even kids that are getting beat by a parent still love them. Just like the fact that he gripes about H once in a while isn't grounds to prove he's a bad father. Again, if the focus should be on me, why is this a topic of discussion?

CV,

The pain in you is old. You don't get to where you are in how you see the world and how you interact with others because H had an EA, or several. You don't live the life with H that you've led to get you to this point in your M without the old stuff.

So, what is it? What hurt you so much when you were young?

Sorry, that was supposed to be H doesn't like MUSHROOMS.

I don't know. If I had to throw something out, I would say my parents were critical. But see, now you're going against the principles of SBT. I've peeled this onion so many times with other counselors, it's almost nauseating at this point. Maybe this is just something that needs to be side-barred until after the EE conference. You're asking me to go against the principles of SBT, and it's taken me a long time to get here. I don't want to go back.

Agreed, SBT says it doesn't matter why. The only relevant questions are (1) do you acknowledge that it's there, (2) do you want to do something about it, and (3) what are you going to do?

Accuray

1. Do you acknowledge that it's there?
I acknowledge that there is a problem in me that manifests itself in our M. I don't acknowledge some deep-rooted pain from my childhood that is somehow negatively impacting everything I do today. I can list just as many happy things about my childhood as unhappy, and I can't speak to any trauma.

2. do you want to do something about?
Yes, I want to do something about it.

3. what are you going to do?
That's what I'm trying to figure out. If I had that answer, I probably wouldn't need to be here.

When operating from SBT, with a coach or counsellor, in the truest form of staying in the present without investigating the past, there is a huge responsibility placed on the subject.

See, every time you are asked to do something, you bring up the past behaviours of your H.

SBT in how you would like it to be say, stay in the present, work towards the future. We say here, beginner's mind because you have to act in a way that there IS NO HISTORY with you and your H.

If you are committed to SBT, the DO NOT bring up the past. Suggestions of how to do things, how to act around your H, the new patterns that you need to establish to create a different and hopefully positive and better R with your H... you would need to do these things.

Some counsellors may look to the past not to relive the past, but to understand the causes of the patterns and hopefully develop a plan to work you past those patterns.

This is completely up to you.

DO...

or don't do...

You are reading some great books. In reading, you are trying to understand why. And from what I can see, you are looking for that answer and magic bullet. Something that fits in with the way you want to see things, that fits your paradigm... that justifies... And as we take the time to read and understand, we can come to that "aha" moment...

but at that moment, we need to do.

So do now or do later...

and when you feel you are justified in saying you tried... well... really consider the difference between your thoughts and the reality of your actions...

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

1. Do you acknowledge that it's there?
I acknowledge that there is a problem in me that manifests itself in our M. I don't acknowledge some deep-rooted pain from my childhood that is somehow negatively impacting everything I do today. I can list just as many happy things about my childhood as unhappy, and I can't speak to any trauma.

SBT would say get out of the pattern.

Looking at your posts and responses, there is a pattern.

Stop making excuses... coming up with reasons why you will not do...

When you find yourself not wanting to act in positive ways with your H, stop those thoughts and do the positive actions... there is your SBT.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

2. do you want to do something about?
Yes, I want to do something about it.

Then DO something.

SBT will not tell you to read a book.

SBT will tell you to focus on a positive outcome and act in positive ways.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

3. what are you going to do?
That's what I'm trying to figure out. If I had that answer, I probably wouldn't need to be here.

While you may not yet know if you want to have a positive and functional M with your H, do you want to have positive Rs with everyone? You can't pick and choose who you want to have positive interactions with, otherwise you are holding on to the negative patterns.

If you do not want to save your M, or if you end up D regardless of what happens, you can use your H and your M as practice for the future, future Rs and possibly even a future M.

SBT says, plan, do, observe results, adjust as necessary...

It can be observed that you are not getting into the DO phase...

So observing the results would suggest you are not committed to SBT...

There's a lot being said here, and I'm definitely reading (and rereading all of it) and trying to respond quickly to everything. Please let me know if I've overlooked something. Some things I'm just getting to slower.

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SBT in how you would like it to be say, stay in the present, work towards the future. We say here, beginner's mind because you have to act in a way that there IS NO HISTORY with you and your H.

I believe I can live in the present, but I don't think it's possible to live as if there is no history.

For example, I can accept the fact that I currently have a job I'm dissatisfied with, and make plans to get a better job. But I can't just enter the job market without a resume, whether I like what my resume says or not. It is what it is. I can go to school, get additional training, etc., but that only changes my resume going forward, not the past.

In the case of my R with my H, I can plan to go forward, but I don't know how to live as if there is no history. For example, I KNOW that he has strong feelings for his college sweetheart. The fact that I found a series of email exchanges, we had a confrontation, etc., can be put in the past. What CAN'T be is his current feelings.

How does one live as if THERE IS NO HISTORY when they currently have an STD from their H's affair? (hypothetically speaking)

I suppose this sounds like an excuse, but I simply don't know how to do it. Again, if I did, I wouldn't have these problems.

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SBT says, plan, do, observe results, adjust as necessary...

It can be observed that you are not getting into the DO phase...

So observing the results would suggest you are not committed to SBT...

It only means I'm still in the planning stage because I don't know what to do, not that I'm not committed to SBT.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

I believe I can live in the present, but I don't think it's possible to live as if there is no history.

I completely understand that. In truth, I believe that's more of a metaphor than a reality. In the same token, it is our pattern of going back and referring to the negative history that holds us back because we make reasons for why it won't be better in the future.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

For example, I can accept the fact that I currently have a job I'm dissatisfied with, and make plans to get a better job. But I can't just enter the job market without a resume, whether I like what my resume says or not. It is what it is. I can go to school, get additional training, etc., but that only changes my resume going forward, not the past.

Again, this is a great metaphor. And also, having NO history, is still a history.

Employer: Do you have experience and/or training

Employee: Stop bringing up the past

SBT would say, get the training or present relevantly transferable skills. Even in that frame, there is a sense of the past in SBT.

With SBT the FOCUS is on the present, but it does not negate the past. The past is still a consideration.

Observe results: That's bringing up the past...

Focusing on SBT as not focusing on the past is really just the reflection of a past pattern and making an excuse for not DOING SBT.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

Quote:

SBT says, plan, do, observe results, adjust as necessary...

It can be observed that you are not getting into the DO phase...

So observing the results would suggest you are not committed to SBT...

It only means I'm still in the planning stage because I don't know what to do, not that I'm not committed to SBT.

That is both honest AND fair.

SBT is done from a position of responsible and it also is best done from a sense of urgency.

If there is no urgency, then the problem is either not that bad or the problem has changed.

If you are feeling no sense of urgency to work on your M, then the problem may not be solving the M. The problem may be simply trying to survive the next 8 years.

I believe and understand that you cannot give an answer of whether you want to save your M. I believe that is not the problem to solve, as you currently present yourself and your motivations.

I believe the problem to solve is helping you to decide whether you DO or DO NOT want to save your M.

Cz,

Stop trying to be right for one week. Why don't you print out these threads, white out your name, then go through them in an effort to support the following thesis:

The unamed poster consistently demonstrates behavior that confirms the other posters' views in many ways.

I'm guessing your parents' criticism often came out in the form of disdain if you didnt know something, did something in the wrong manner, made a factual mistake, uses poor grammar??

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If there is no urgency, then the problem is either not that bad or the problem has changed.

If you are feeling no sense of urgency to work on your M, then the problem may not be solving the M. The problem may be simply trying to survive the next 8 years.

Last week, I got chastised because my sense of urgency translated into "hounding" my husband for an email he was going to send.

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I'm guessing your parents' criticism often came out in the form of disdain if you didn't know something, did something in the wrong manner, made a factual mistake, uses poor grammar??

When you ask something like this, do you really want an answer, or is this just something you want me to think about? I hesitate to answer, because my answer may not be in agreement with your statement, then I'm accused of being argumentative. At the same time, I've gotten chastised by KD for not answering every question, that I'm somehow intentionally withholding.

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Stop trying to be right for one week.

As demonstrated by the points above, I don't feel like I'm right -- ever. I have my perspective, but I acknowledge it as being only that -- it doesn't mean I'm trying to be "right."

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SBT says, plan, do, observe results, adjust as necessary...

Your challenge: Current reality: My H carries strong feelings for his college sweetheart. My problem: I don't know how to have a healthy M when there's another "love," especially when reality can never compete with fantasy. SBT: Tell me one specific thing I should do this minute, proactively or in response to the question, and the intended goal behind the action, what to observe, and potentially what to adjust.

I'm really getting some insight into Accuray's W's situation.

This feels completely hopeless to me right now. Not my M, but my efforts to improve myself. I really just want to throw in the towel and say, "Forget it. This is what you get, H, take it or leave it. I don't have the energy or insight or ability to do whatever needs to be done, because I just don't GET IT and it's driving me crazy. At least with my normal dysfunction, I can at least still function. This makes me want to crawl into a hole and die, so I'll take my normal dysfunction over this any day."

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

Last week, I got chastised because my sense of urgency translated into "hounding" my husband for an email he was going to send.

Yes.

It was not because of what you were doing, rather HOW you were doing. And SBT type suggestions on how to do it differently were offered.

Did you change how you were presenting to your H?

If so, how were the responses of your H different?

If not, why not?

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

...I've gotten chastised by KD for not answering every question, that I'm somehow intentionally withholding.

Yes, I did ask you to answer every question.

I am not asking you to come up with the RIGHT answers. I am asking you to come up with AN answer.

What that entails is, making a choice. If we won't make a choice, then we are avoiding making a choice (or rather, we are choosing to continue to stay stuck; or put another way, we are choosing to stay in "planning" mode).

This goes back to "confident expectations".

Funny thing... people walk done the street every day and trip over a curb, stair, whatever... we TRUST that our feet will take us there. We ignore the reality that our feet may fail us. Yet we do, anyhow.

If we accepted the reality that we might fall, would that stop us from making a choice to walk?

If I want to start a business, I can sit and think about it. I can say, "I don't know how to start. I don't want to do this, I don't want to do that, I want to think about this. I want to plan this, because I don't want to do it wrong (which is the SAME as saying I want to do it right)."

When the reality is, when we want to start a business, we start doing business. We get a phone number. We get an address. We open a bank account. We send out marketing and advertising.

If we do not do these things, then we are not doing business.

It could be the wrong phone number. It could be the wrong address. It could be the wrong bank. It could be poor quality advertising.

But we won't know, unless we do. So we choose to do and we start doing and we observe and we course correct.

But the first choice HAD to be made. We had to choose AND COMMIT to starting and operating a business.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

Your challenge: Current reality: My H carries strong feelings for his college sweetheart. My problem: I don't know how to have a healthy M when there's another "love," especially when reality can never compete with fantasy. SBT: Tell me one specific thing I should do this minute, proactively or in response to the question, and the intended goal behind the action, what to observe, and potentially what to adjust.

The solution to the above is, become an attractive option. Not in a competitive way. Rather, become a woman that only a fool would leave. Your H may or may not be that fool.

The question before the plan is, are you prepared to do what it takes to be the BEST option for ANY man, even if you fail to keep your H?

Answer that question and then we can plan accordingly.

The real question may be:

Why would you want to stay M to your H?

Why do I always sense when I've been mentioned? It's like my spider sense tingles. It's weird:

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

I'm really getting some insight into Accuray's W's situation.

This feels completely hopeless to me right now. Not my M, but my efforts to improve myself. I really just want to throw in the towel and say, "Forget it. This is what you get, H, take it or leave it. I don't have the energy or insight or ability to do whatever needs to be done, because I just don't GET IT and it's driving me crazy. At least with my normal dysfunction, I can at least still function. This makes me want to crawl into a hole and die, so I'll take my normal dysfunction over this any day."

I never treated my W the way your H treats you. My W's issues precede me and don't have that much to do with me other than that I can exacerbate them and they bother me.

Also, my W knows EXACTLY what to do to promote my happiness -- she does get it. She just feels that acting that way is not who she is, she's accepted who she is, and therefore she's not going to do it.

MC says that acceptance, not happiness, is the goal line, and my W has achieved acceptance of herself in her unhappy state. He feels that's more important than achieving happiness but not accepting who you are.

My W has "given up" on her own happiness and self-improvement. You are talking about giving up on your marriage. Those are two very different outcomes.

Reading over this CV, the posters are saying "CV, you're angry. You're not feeling good about yourself. H has become the lightening rod for your discontent. He may be responsible for a lot of discontent, but with your current mental state, he's not going to win. Nothing he does will work. There will always be more he hasn't done, or something wrong with the way he's done it, and that's a reflection on you, not on him."

I also see the posters saying "You think you'll be happy with H gone, but you won't. Something or someone else will take H's place of being the rock in your shoe."

CV, I don't know if I agree with that assessment or not. Honestly, you are difficult for me to understand. You're obviously very very smart and in many ways very motivated and self-aware, but you also seem to have some blind spots.

Those blind spots could just be my misunderstanding because of the difficulty of this medium, or they could be real. I don't know.

There is definitely so much frustration and ire directed at H, but the examples you give of why he deserves that don't seem that bad. Maybe that's why there's the disconnect. We can't see the non-verbal communication or hear the tone of voice. You may also be expecting him to mind-read and can't believe that he does such a bad job of it. I don't know.

You've had a hard day here. How about talking about what makes you happy? Can you answer these questions?

1) What are you doing when you are your happiest?

2) When you're doing that, what are you thinking about? Where does your mind go?

3) What are you most proud of in terms of who you are?

4) When you think about an ideal marriage for you, what does it look like? What level of intimacy do you have? Is your H doting, or independent?

5) If you could take 4 weeks off from work with no responsibilities and a reasonable amount of money, what would you do?

Maybe we can try focusing on what makes you feel good about you, and forget the problems and issues for now. I think your posters are getting you rolled up in a carpet today, and maybe that's not productive.

Accuray

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

I don't know. If I had to throw something out, I would say my parents were critical. But see, now you're going against the principles of SBT. I've peeled this onion so many times with other counselors, it's almost nauseating at this point. Maybe this is just something that needs to be side-barred until after the EE conference. You're asking me to go against the principles of SBT, and it's taken me a long time to get here. I don't want to go back.

we are NOT going against SBT here. Your pain/anger and resistance, is the elephant in the room. It's why SBT isn't yet working in your sitch.

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It was not because of what you were doing, rather HOW you were doing. And SBT type suggestions on how to do it differently were offered. Did you change how you were presenting to your H?
If so, how were the responses of your H different? If not, why not?

Again, I couldn't "redo" what had happened. But in a subsequent convo, he said he was going to do something. I haven't asked for or even mentioned it since. Last night, he volunteered that he had put some effort into it and was really proud of it, but that he was still working on it. I'm waiting quietly, not "hounding." I'm having a hard time reconciling the week(+/-) with a sense of urgency. But I AM keeping quiet. Not claiming it's perfect, but I did listen and apply. His response was different in that he didn't accuse me of hounding him, but not different in that he promises a lot but rarely delivers.

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If we accepted the reality that we might fall, would that stop us from making a choice to walk?

This depends upon the risk. Walking, no. Jumping out of an airplane, yes.

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The solution to the above is, become an attractive option. Not in a competitive way. Rather, become a woman that only a fool would leave. Your H may or may not be that fool.

The question before the plan is, are you prepared to do what it takes to be the BEST option for ANY man, even if you fail to keep your H?

Answer that question and then we can plan accordingly.

I don't think you understand the problem. H isn't leaving me for her, because that's not a simple choice. He's M'd, she's M'd, lives in a different state, etc. My problem is wrapping my head around knowing that given the option to turn back time, he would choose to be with her, and that he carries that in his head with him, TODAY. I can't be good enough to offset fantasy. No one can. So your question really becomes, am I prepared to do what it takes to be the SECOND BEST option for H? I can answer that I am at least capable, if not prepared at this very moment (just being honest, please don't chew me up.) What about MY part? Beyond what I "do," I don't know what to "be." This doesn't fit into my definition of what M is supposed to look like. So, fine, I redefine it. To what? What is the GOAL?

I am interested to hear your feedback, to hear what I'm supposed to do to somehow offset H's fantasy.

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The real question may be: Why would you want to stay M to your H?

Vows, religions beliefs, convenience, ease for family and friends, structure for son, financial stability, etc. It's all I've got right now. If he's not contributing to (not responsible for) my happiness, I don't know how to have any reason beyond that.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

I suppose this sounds like an excuase, but I simply don't know how to do it. Again, if I did, I wouldn't have these problems.

if he is having an EA NOW, then it's not "history", it's an issue to work on.

Have you told your h that it hurts you, (or have you assumed he knows or ought to know?)

I did comment that I don't believe he knows you love him (do you? I mean I can't tell)

and if he truly does not feel loved by you then it's very easy to see how he'd rationalize an affair, even just an EA.

We all need some intimacy in our lives and if the old flame gives that to him, you might want to look at how empty HIS love tank is.

I say that b/c you don't seem to think you play any role in his behavior.

I am not making you responsible for him, but I AM saying it did not occur in a vacuum.

I say all that based on your words here. I appreciate your honesty here.

We don't have to redo. We have to observe and adjust.

We say around here that there is very little that will tank an M right then and there, no if and or buts, done, done, done...

So a plan that didn't work well simply needs to be adjusted as necessary.

On jumping out of an airplane, are you saying that there is no way that you could ever trust someone to pack your chute?

There are many tens of thousands of people who DO trust someone to pack their chutes and come out successful after a jump.

If you make a choice to never jump, that is fine. You made a choice. Of course, you can always CHANGE that choice down the road. But the choice itself is never right or wrong.

Saving your M or becoming a woman only a fool would leave is your choice. Either choice is neither right nor wrong.

Choose, plan, act, observe, adjust.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

Quote:

The real question may be: Why would you want to stay M to your H?

Vows, religions beliefs, convenience, ease for family and friends, structure for son, financial stability, etc. It's all I've got right now. If he's not contributing to (not responsible for) my happiness, I don't know how to have any reason beyond that.

That was great! That really, really was. I am glad you have offered other reasons that just your S.

With or without the reasons and it IS ok to have reasons, it is about the choice. And you are making that choice...

are you...? Like really, really...?

Then it takes me back to the question about the time. How long do you want to be in planning mode?

Just make a choice. One week...? One month...?

Just make a choice. Making the choice ups the urgency and the intention and you responsibly put yourself into a position to MOVE yourself in a direction.

As of right now, I am gone for the weekend and will not be back until late sunday at the earliest.

oh and just quick on the EA. I see that could actually be much more powerful in your "choice to be a WAS" than originally anticipated.

I thought I read that you got over it. Obviously, you are attached to a belief that your H would rather be with someone else, so you decided to leave FIRST. To be fair, I am not saying that you are being mean or bad. I am just saying that is how it can look to an outside observer.

Underlying pain and fear and your actions over the past 6 months, year, 4 years... could all revolve around that.

That may have been very helpful to know, earlier. It's OK that info is only coming out now or perhaps is just being put on the table because you are working through it and now feel comfortable putting it there.

Again, the solution is to grow. Become an even better person... woman... than you already are. Because even if your H does leave you for this EA, at least you can say he was a fool.

I'm sorry. Geeze, I have to go... but please understand that I am not saying that he IS leaving.

At least not physically.

But an EA is just as much "gone" as a PA.

So when I talk about him leaving you, I am not necessarily talking about it from a physical perspective. Although the way you describe it, if things were different and it was just you and this OW, that you truly believe he would choose her...

And that... could REALLY hurt... which explains a lot...

Yes, I was asking what the criticism from your parents was like. It was a question, thus the question marks.

Some people have very strong emotional reactions with very bad feelings if someone thinks they've made a mistake or error of some sort, done something wrong, or not done something in the manner they were told to do so. They also demonstrate significant disdain if they think someone is making a mistake, holds a false belief, is doing something the wrong way.

It sounds like you may be like this. It sounds like you have deep emotional wounds around such things that may keep you stuck, and that you have a pattern of treating others such that if they make mistakes, are unskilled, uninformed, wrong, etc, that they too are worthy of disdain and not worthy of love.

Not everyone is, ya know? I can be wrong, mistaken, make typos, use poor grammar, be misinformed, mess up a project, misunderstand, etc... It does not emotionally wound me. And, I feel perfectly lovable and worthy in spite of such things. Of course, there are other things about me that make me feel insecure, worried about being lovable, etc... But, making mistakes just does not phase me.

If you are so wounded by the thought of being wrong or mistaken, you'll quite naturally do everything possible to keep yourself from entertaining that view. You'll deny, rationalize, etc...

Contrary to what you suggest, you seem to be a master at convincing yourself that you are right and others are wrong. You toss up whatever argument is facile to justify your position. That seems to be your primary way of dealing with things in your exchanges here and your reported exchanges with H.

What if I'm right? What if CZ is in such pain because it hurts her so much to risk being thought of as being mistaken? Not for petty know-it-all reasons, but because it hurts you to your core as a human being? Can you have compassion for such a person? Can you see how sad it would be to be a child like that, to have one's lovability linked to not making mistakes? To me it is heart-wrenching.

We all stumble, fall, make mistakes. We're all incompetent boneheads at times. We all feel certain about things when we're totally wrong.

So what? I mean, really, so what? It doesn't hurt me.

It doesn't have to hurt you.

Do you feel rage or deep shame when you are mistaken or do something wrong (and I don't mean morally wrong)?

I like that Oldtimer

Great, Accuray, now I've got that song in my head ... "Here comes the spider, here comes the spider, here comes the spiderman.....!"

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I never treated my W the way your H treats you. My W's issues precede me and don't have that much to do with me other than that I can exacerbate them and they bother me.

Except that what I'm hearing from everyone here is that my issues don't have anything to do with H's actions either. That it's coming from some childhood hurt. So my issues evidently preceded my H, too. I'm just saying, if it's this hard to fix, I get checking out. I know EXACTLY what to do to promote my H's happiness, too, and as long as I didn't expect him to do anything in kind, we'd be great!

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Those blind spots could just be my misunderstanding because of the difficulty of this medium, or they could be real. I don't know.

Yes, the basic problem of blind spots. One is blind to them. Until they poke in the butt.

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There is definitely so much frustration and ire directed at H, but the examples you give of why he deserves that don't seem that bad. Maybe that's why there's the disconnect. We can't see the non-verbal communication or hear the tone of voice.

I've have definitely considered this could possibly be part of my problem! That I just have my standards set too high. I acknowledge that I have perfectionist tendencies, and I've been told that I impose my standards onto other people. I've considered perhaps it really isn't that big of a deal that H sought out and chatted with his exGF, shared how he wished they had never broke up, fantasized with her about what life would be like now. Maybe it really isn't that bad. He certainly argued that it wasn't. Maybe I just need to lower my standards. Maybe it wouldn't be a big deal if I got a little touchy-feely with a guy at a bar some night, maybe kissed a little. I mean, at least I'm not in love with him and don't have a sexual history with him, so that could be somewhat equated to what H did. I know I might really enjoy it, so as long as I hide it from H, then why not? Maybe.

H has always said that I should focus more on forgiveness. I get that. Forgiveness is especially easy when there's nothing to forgive (H not liking mushrooms, for example.) If I don't have as high of standards for our M, then I can certainly accommodate. At the same time, if I do happen to do something that H doesn't like, I can focus on the fact that he's supposed to forgive me and move on, just like he purports about me -- so no biggie.

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Maybe we can try focusing on what makes you feel good about you, and forget the problems and issues for now. I think your posters are getting you rolled up in a carpet today, and maybe that's not productive.

That sounds fun. I don't think that would address my issues, though. I do have the weekend to myself -- S and H are going camping w/ boyscouts. I'm going to a movie tonight with BFF, probably a margarita afterwards. Tomorrow, I'm planning to visit my 90yo gma and let her beat me at Scrabble a few times (let her! lol! She cleans my clock!) Somewhere in there, I have to do some homework, which is not bad. I'm actually enjoying going back to school. It gives my mind something to focus on besides my M. Sunday is open, so if the weather is nice, I'd love to get out, maybe go biking.

Some of your Q's I'll have to think about. I can't even imagine 4 weeks of whatever I wanted to do. But it will be fun to think about.

BTW, the cookies are baking for the camping trip. I already plan to give H a big hug and a peck when he leaves (yes, this is big for me.) I'm not completely uncooperative here, just not seeing the forest yet.

Okay, catchup....

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On jumping out of an airplane, are you saying that there is no way that you could ever trust someone to pack your chute?

Nope. Never. No way, no how. Not on THAT issue. And statistics mean absolutely nothing to me.

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If he is having an EA NOW, then it's not "history", it's an issue to work on. Have you told your h that it hurts you, (or have you assumed he knows or ought to know?)
I did comment that I don't believe he knows you love him (do you? I mean I can't tell) and if he truly does not feel loved by you then it's very easy to see how he'd rationalize an affair, even just an EA.

Now? Who can say. He hid it before, I don't snoop. Yes, I've told him it hurt me, he apologized, but then went on to justify it, so the apology is sort of moot. I'm sure I love him, but I also dislike him very much. I posted elsewhere that "no feelings" is a defense mechanism, and I'm all over that. I definitely don't feel loved by him, so I could easily rationalize an EA as well, but I don't because it's not appropriate in a M. But then this goes back to my needing to lower my standards.

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We all need some intimacy in our lives and if the old flame gives that to him, you might want to look at how empty HIS love tank is. I say that b/c you don't seem to think you play any role in his behavior. I am not making you responsible for him, but I AM saying it did not occur in a vacuum.

I get that, but again. I'm not sure if it's possible for me to fill his love tank. Remember, he wasn't content with my focused attention on our honeymoon.

More coming...

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I see that could actually be much more powerful in your "choice to be a WAS" than originally anticipated.

I thought I read that you got over it. Obviously, you are attached to a belief that your H would rather be with someone else, so you decided to leave FIRST. To be fair, I am not saying that you are being mean or bad. I am just saying that is how it can look to an outside observer.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. It's what I was trying to say when I said forgiveness doesn't take away the fact that now you KNOW something, and knowing it changes everything. OW wasn't the only instance. This has been a pretty consistent message throughout our M. It just seems that anyone and everyone is more valued/fun/entertaining/lovable/important/etc. than me. It's not so much a matter of leaving FIRST, but more a matter of not having a reason to stay.

BUT!! We're back to talking about H's actions. That's not good.

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Yes, I was asking what the criticism from your parents was like. It was a question, thus the question marks.

No, what you described was not what I dealt with. Rather, it was the continuous message that it was good, but not good enough. A "B" could always be an "A." An "A" could always be an "A+." As a child, it was tough, but I completely get it as a parent raising an unmotivated child.

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Not everyone is, ya know?

Yes, I do know that.

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If you are so wounded by the thought of being wrong or mistaken, you'll quite naturally do everything possible to keep yourself from entertaining that view. You'll deny, rationalize, etc...

Contrary to what you suggest, you seem to be a master at convincing yourself that you are right and others are wrong. You toss up whatever argument is facile to justify your position. That seems to be your primary way of dealing with things in your exchanges here and your reported exchanges with H.
What if I'm right?

Then then would explain a lot.

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What if CZ is in such pain because it hurts her so much to risk being thought of as being mistaken?

Then that would definitely be a problem for CZ. (CV?)

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Not for petty know-it-all reasons, but because it hurts you to your core as a human being?

Again, then that would be a problem.

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Can you have compassion for such a person?

Yes, I certainly can. That would have to be a very hard thing for that person.

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Can you see how sad it would be to be a child like that, to have one's lovability linked to not making mistakes? To me it is heart-wrenching.

It would be heart-wrenching to me as well to see a child go through that.

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So what? I mean, really, so what? It doesn't hurt me.

People make mistakes all the time. The degree of the problem is only as bad as the outcome. For example, a heart surgeon slipping with a scalpel resulting in the patient dying is obviously worse than a child coloring outside the lines. Both people are still lovable.

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Do you feel rage or deep shame when you are mistaken or do something wrong (and I don't mean morally wrong)?

No. I get frustrated with myself, I'm disappointed. I do not ever experience what you call rage (certainly not with mistakes.) I watched my father punch a wall or kick something across the room whenever something didn't go his way. I thought at the time it was ridiculous and still do. My response is to just deal and fix it. I make mistakes all the time, but I can't begin to list one for you.

Regarding morally wrong, then yes I do feel it deeply, and carry it for a long time. I still don't feel rage, just regret and disappointment. I do have a very high moral standard, for myself and others that care to engage with me.

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Great, Accuray, now I've got that song in my head ... "Here comes the spider, here comes the spider, here comes the spiderman.....!"

Isn't that the same tune as Speed Racer?? "Go Speed Racer, go Speed Racer, go Speed Racer, gooooo....."

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Then it takes me back to the question about the time. How long do you want to be in planning mode?

Just make a choice. One week...? One month...?

Until I have a plan. I will be in this "pause" mode until I have a plan to get out of it. And I don't care if that's a minute or a lifetime. If plan A is "Put on this parachute and jump out of this perfectly good airplane," then I will make a plan B.

Well a night off is a wonderful thing!

I've gone back through and reread this thread, again, as suggested. I can see how my responses could be interpreted as resistance. I'm going to make that a primary focus for any future responses, to avoid doing that, that is. Somehow I will have to distinguish between rejection/resistance and just sharing information. Same thing with being defensive: what's defensive and what's just sharing information. I'm guessing it has a lot to do with the attitude behind it, so I'll pay close attention to that.

Meanwhile, S and H are off camping. It was cold last night, so I don't envy them at all. Before they left, I did help H pack, sent along his cookies. And I gave him a hug and a peck when he left. Then he came back for two more, which I obliged.

I'm not heartless. I really do care for him when we were not in conflict. I just wish that wasn't so often. I'm going to keep working on what I need to do to eliminate my part of that. I hope I'm strong enough. I'm just awfully tired (not resisting, just stating how I feel.)

One day at a time.

You know, the thought just occurred to me -- I am sooo happy neither of us is dealing with the OM/OW. We couldn't do it. We'd just be done. I know other people have managed. I know Sandi worked really hard to get there. I couldn't. It would just be too much. One thing to be really thankful for, I guess.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

Well a night off is a wonderful thing!

Meanwhile, S and H are off camping. It was cold last night, so I don't envy them at all. Before they left, I did help H pack, sent along his cookies. And I gave him a hug and a peck when he left. Then he came back for two more, which I obliged.

I'm not heartless. I really do care for him when we were not in conflict. I just wish that wasn't so often. I'm going to keep working on what I need to do to eliminate my part of that. I hope I'm strong enough. I'm just awfully tired (not resisting, just stating how I feel.)

Good for you, CV!

CV, when I read you expressing your feelings and trying to be understood, it sure makes me think of myself. Our stitch is not the same but I can see myself in you (hope you won't be insulted). I really do understand how you feel about a lot of things in your stitch.

You really are strong to continue to stay on the board when you are so frustrated b/c you aren't getting what you are seeking. So much of your responses are actually you defending yourself, and trying to explain why you feel like you do. And, I can see myself when you try to tell what it is like living with your H. You may not receive the exact advice as I did, but I see a lot of the same thing happening.

I went through a very long stretch of time that I felt like some members were picking me apart to see what was wrong with me. Some would ask questions that I felt I'd have to take a college course before I knew how to answer. Truthfully, I did not know how to answer some things. I admire how well you write and can hold your own with whatever kind of post hits you.

In my case, I didn't see the point of a lot of what they were trying to do. I felt as if I were on trial and I was not being heard. That caused even more frustration. People thought I was mad, hard-hearted, and a few more things. I continued to try and tell them the negative things about my H, but I didn't feel that I received much help there. Part of that problem was b/c I was not in the right state of mind to receive some things I was told.

I think the bottom line was that I had to do one of two things. I either had to make the choice to accept him the way he is and to not expect him to make changes. The other choice was to leave.

Well of course, I wanted him to make changes! And, the more LBS's told me I was the one who needed to change, the more angry I became. So, as I've said before,I think I really understand how you feel.

It must be terrible living in a M for the sake of your child. My children were grown, but then I had grandchilden to consider. As one wise WAW

Oh crud! I hit the submit button before I was through.

So anyway, I think I was saying that a wise WAW had painted a picture of what life would be like for my grandchildren seeing their grandparents D. I really resented it at first. I was tired of always having to live a certain way for the sake of others. I was tired of DBing telling me that I needed to change. Who was telling my H to change? Nobody!

Thing was......it was my choice. Nobody was forcing me.

I think you are very tired of being the one who has tried to save the M, and now some folks think you should still take responsibility of the M. You have been the one who has worked to have a healthy R with a man who apparently doesn't care to even treat you with common courtesy. I have been appalled at some things you've told about him doing, and I would tell myself that there's no way I'd put up with him. But, the point is....it's not my M, and he's not my H. It's not my life. It's your choice to put up with him. If you can't bear his unkindness, his bad manners, being inconsiderate, selfish, and all the other things that are bad, then you make your decision based on those facts. If he is preventing you from being happy and is changing you into something you don't like, then make your decision based on those facts. If there are other issues, then base your decision on that. But it is your choice, and you have that freedom. (I know you know this. :))

That is not what you were seeking when you came here. But, the truth is....we can't tell you how to change him. If there was a way....I would be the first to inform you!

Some may try to suggest what you can do in order to try and make changes. But it always sounds like you are the one expected to do the the changing.

I'm going to be painfully honest here, okay? If I had been younger, I don't know if I could have made the same decision. Mostly b/c of the frame of mind I had at the time, I think I felt like I was sacrificing to stay in the M. Honestly, it took quite some time for me to see things on better terms. Today, I am glad I stayed.

If your H will not listen to reason, and won't change the things that hurt you, then you need to make a choice based on those facts. If your lack of respect is greater than your tolerance, then make your decision based on that fact.

If there is hope, no matter how small, that things will get better, then you need to consider making a decision based on that hope.

If your faith is stronger than his weaknesses, then consider making a choice based on your faith.

If you have enough love that can accept all of his faults (big and little), and not hold him accountable for falling short of your expectations, then you need to consider making a decision based on that love.

My dad told me something I've never forgotten. You can withstand anything your M faces....if you have enough love.

So, as simple as it sounds, it's often the hardest to do.

I haven't given you anything you don't already know. But, I just wanted you to know that I hear you.....and I understand. I understand how angry and resentful you feel, and you have every right to feel that way. Based on my experience, things did not get better until I was able to get past the resentment. I had a lot of years built up!

I had to exercise the act of forgiving. I'm not sure this was the advice given to me as a WAW. Most people thought I was very lucky to have a H who would forgive me. But I had to forgive him of a lot of things in the past that was impossible to go back and change history. I learned that forgiveness is letting go of that resentment. And, it didn't come easy for me. But, I think it was probably the first step in healing the MR.

CV, I think you have a lot to contribute to LBS's here. You seem to be well educated and you have the POV of a WAW. In helping others, it may help to heal some of your pain. I have learned so much from the LBS. They have taught me about my own H through their personal pain.

Thanks for stopping in, Sandi! Really!

When I went back to the beginning of your posts from some years ago and read through them, I was completely relating to what you were posting, too. I said that I'm thankful that I don't have the OM pulling on me too, because I'm not sure I would be able to give him up and go back. I give you credit for being able to do that.

I do appreciate what people are offering. And it is frustrating at the same time. I hear what they are saying and I'm trying to apply it and it isn't fitting well. It feels like I'm being told to put a square peg in a round hole and I just don't understand how I'm supposed to do that.

I would say that I want to save my M, because I don't want all the ramifications of a D. That is not the same as wanting the M. Your H had a LOT of stuff in your history that I'm not sure I could have taken/forgiven either.

Yet I've read on one of your posts recently that you said you would be devastated without him now.

How do you get to that point without your H changing??? How do get there from here?

From my side of things, I can coexist, probably indefinitely, just by avoiding him as much as possible and GAL of my own. I need to know how to WANT to invest in him, to want to sacrifice for him. I know the things to do to make him happy, I just don't know how to want to do them. ("Gee, H, you want to help yourself to food off my dinner plate? Sure, here, have the whole thing. Enjoy!")

"It just seems that anyone and everyone is more valued/fun/entertaining/lovable/important/etc. than me."

THIS is what is about being raised in a hypercritical manner.

And, just because you don't punch walls doesn't mean being imperfect has less severe effects on you.

Perfectionist tendencies are all about feelings of inadequacy, trying to be good enough, ensuring that neither you nor any significant other will be good enough. THIS is what to change for your own sake, which may or may not help your M.

Right now you can't tell if:

(1) Your H believes "anyone and everyone is more valued/fun/entertaining/lovable/important/etc. than me."

or
(2) YOU believe that and project it on others.

or
(3) a combination of (1) and (2)

But, if it were just coming from H and not from you, you'd not have put up with it for so long. People who haven't previously internalized such thoughts themselves don't stay in R's that lead them to feel that way.

So, that leaves (2) or (3), and until you stop hurting yourself with your perfectionism, you can't tell which.

BTW, you seem to have odd views about forgiveness.

We forgive others for trespassing against us, for doing something wrong. So, forgiveness means that the other person did something WRONG, not that what they did was acceptable. Forgiveness is in no way an endorsement of objectionable behavior. Forgiveness involves moving forward, it does not involve moving forward blindly. Forgiveness is not weak, but comes from a place of personal strength and compassion.

But you seem to feel that holding onto bitterness, anger, and disdain is the only thing to do without saying "it's ok to treat me like crap."

Very hard, stuck, dark place. It's ok to let go of those feelings without giving the mistreatment a thumbs up. It is very important to get that.

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Yet I've read on one of your posts recently that you said you would be devastated without him now.

How do you get to that point without your H changing??? How do get there from here?

You know, it's kind of funny, but I've seen other women who would put up with things from their H's that I would never even consider putting up with. On the other hand, I've been told by a couple of women that they couldn't put up with my H!

As you know, my road was very long and I sure didn't win any blue ribbons at the speed I traveled. Since my H would not consider going to anyone for counseling, then the board was my counseling session, which could be rough at times. I had some good folks to help me, and then I had some I could have done without.

Sometimes I wanted to scream at them and tell them those things they were suggesting would not work with my H! They did not understand my situation. I guess I kind of felt like you talking about using the square peg for a round hole.

Our H's may be different, and our stitch may be different, but I see that we share similar feelings. I came here as a last resort, and maybe you did too. I think you said it right when you wrote this in your first thread:

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trying to decide if there really is any hope afterall, trying to decide if I really care if there is.

That's a pretty good description of how I felt, also. I was such a mess that I don't think I even knew what I was looking for here on the DB board. Like you, I felt I had already tried everything I knew to do to have a better MR.....years ago. So, I think it's safe to say I was searching for somebody who could say something to make me care.

IDK, maybe I wanted to be told it was okay to run off with OM.

Even after I decided to stay in my M, it would make me mad for some LBS to defend my H (lol) when they didn't even know him! And besides, I think I wanted somebody to see what all I had done that was right and what he did that was wrong. You know that show "Everybody Loves Raymond"? That was how it was with my H! Everyone loves him and he's always the good guy and I'm the bad one. So, over the years I really resented that. I had to be the bad guys with our kids b/c he would not discipline them! No matter what the circumstance, he came out smelling like a rose and I came out smelling like poop!

So, I kept on trying to explain to people around here how hard it was living with him and nobody took me seriously! At least, that's how I felt at the time.

You came here looking for solutions, and steps, and workable plans. And, like me....you keep trying to explain how things really are with your H.

So, I'm looking at your questions to me and wondering how I can give you a solid, satisfying answer. "How do you get there from here?" Here's how I had to think at the time back then. It's not exactly how I think now, and if I forget to come back and explain, let me know.

I had to realize he would never be better. He was nearing retirement and he would never climb the "success ladder" any higher. He would never please me in how he kept the back yard, and he would continue to bring junk home to add to his other junk. He would always take all day to think about what he was going to do that day. He would never be the great handyman like my neighbor. He would not measure up in to my father, in my eyes. He would never open open up and talk to me the way I wanted him to, b/c he didn't know how. Neither would he give me the emotional intimacy I wanted b/c he apparently didn't know how to do that either. In other words, he would never change! I really didn't have any hope in him making any kind of change.

Like it or not, it was something I had to decide if I would live the rest of my life with those conditions, or leave. It was not an easy task. It was like you said:

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I don't want all the ramifications of a D.

I felt there were other things at stake, just as you do. I know this is getting long, so I won't go into all that. I was trying to find enough reasons to stay in the M. Could I find more reasons to stay than leave? Doesn't work that way. But before I could much of anything, I had to make that decision. Once I did, then I was just here ...no more no less....just a body that was here. So much healing had to take place. And, I'm talking about healing for me! I can only imagine how much for my H, since I was the one who betrayed his trust.

The healing road was rough. It didn't come easy and it wasn't short. I was so "done" with everything that I could hardly get out of bed every day. Part of that was my physical condition (which I won't get off into, but you may have read about it) but most of it was my mental attitude. In the past, my H had used those two words to me so much, I hated it with a passion! However, I didn't have the right attitude and didn't know how to change it. Let me say that dfferently. I didn't want to change it bad enough. I prayed all the time that God would help me. He did, but it didn't come in the time or the way I wanted.

Ever so slowly, as I began reading from the LBH's, I began to understand my own H a little better. And since he didn't know how to reveal that to me, it helped to read it from others. I began to see how I must have been seen in his eyes for a long time.

The place that may be different for you and me is that I had to reach a place where I felt humility. I think I had put myself up on such a high pedestal that my H didn't stand much chance in rising up to meet me on my level. You would have thought that after I strayed, I'd have fallen off that high pedestal, but I didn't. In face CV, I had to actually pray that I would feel bad about what I had done, instead of feeling justified. When the shame begin to hit, well it nearly killed me. Forgiving myself has been the hardest thing I've ever done. Strange, I've never doubted my H's forgiveness,but I've wondered if I really forgiven myself.

My lesson here, I hope, is it finally came to me that if my H could forgive what I had done, then why couldn't I forgive him? If he could give me his trust again, then why would I hold on to all that resentment I had against him?

Oh yes, it took a long time before I let go of everything. But, I discovered that my resentment had turned to bitterness and some other bad names, and it was making me a prisoner. I didn't know if I'd ever be happy in my M or not, but I knew for sure I'd never be happy with all that cr@p in my heart.

I remember telling my H that I hadn't set out to hurt him when I met the OM and had an EA. But I think it was about two years before I could bring myself to tell him I was sorry. Don't you know that our M never stood a chance as long as I danced around trying to avoid that?

My H really is a good man! He has the best heart of any person I have known. My problem was that he didn't do like I wanted. Maybe I had good reason to feel like I did toward a lot of things, but what I've learned about M, is that most of it is forgiving. Some people say they "overlook" the faults of their S's, but that's just a word for forgiveness. I doubt a day goes by that my H doesn't forgive me for somelittle offense. After all, I'm not perfect.

I hope not, but I'm sure there are many. I have learned that if we forgive the smaller offenses as we go...then the larger ones are not quite as hard as it would be otherwise.

To sum this up (and I know you're glad-ha), we don't forgive b/c they deserve it. Your H doesn't deserve your forgiveness! He may not ever be able to make up for what he's done. He probably won't try. Forgiveness is a choice. I hope that doesn't set wrong with you. B/c I really hope you can get this. He doesn't deserve it nor can he earn it, only you can give it to him. When you are able to do that, then it frees the resentment and all the other things that were eating you up.

As I see it, a M has to have forgiveness and acceptance to survive. Most people think it's love!

Here's the thing, the loving feelings will come after those other feelings have left. Forgiving and accepting him will be the key to finding those feelings you thought were long gone. I'm not saying you should accept his bad behavior, or bad treatment of you, so don't misunderstand what I'm trying to say. Sometimes I've had people to take that as me saying they should be a meek mouse, or doormat type, but I would never suggest sucking it up to a S who continues to show the same bad behavior over & over again. For me, I had to accept the fact that my H would never be or do like all those things I mentioned back in the beginning of this long post, and more. That's the accepting part. That is what has been a big step for me. I believe in a gal being spunky, but I had carried it to a whole new level.

I hope this didn't sound mushy-gushy, but that's what it took for me to get from there to here without my H changing. I will admit that he responds to me a lot better these days. Maybe it's due to my mental attitude, IDK. But at least he doesn't bring it up any more.

And, yes I would be totally devastated if anything bad happened to him. I love him with all my heart. There was a time I didn't know if I could ever say that again.

I feel that I have left a lot out that I meant to say, but this post is pages too long. I want you to know that if I had been told what I just told you.....I doubt it would have been welcomed. Reason being, mostly b/c it took so long before I was receptive to it. Also, I felt there had to be so much "more" and what were the steps, etc. For me, it was not so simple, but it worked.

((CV))

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

Quote:

I see that could actually be much more powerful in your "choice to be a WAS" than originally anticipated.

I thought I read that you got over it. Obviously, you are attached to a belief that your H would rather be with someone else, so you decided to leave FIRST. To be fair, I am not saying that you are being mean or bad. I am just saying that is how it can look to an outside observer.

fwiw, I don't think you are "over it" at all, and I say that without any judgement attached. I am curious as to why you'd say, or believe, that you are over it though.

What makes you think so? Is it possible you think it'd look weak or unforgiving, to not be "over it"? If so, why?

Sorry if I wasn't clear. It's what I was trying to say when I said forgiveness doesn't take away the fact that now you KNOW something, and knowing it changes everything.

Without knowing what you are forgiving, well...what are you forgiving? Of course knowing something is harder than not knowing if not knowing means you still retain hope but my "issue" with this statement of yours, suggests that it's easier to forgive if you do not know.

My question is, if you do Not know something happened, what's to forgive?
You must "KNOW" something in order to forgive it, and sure
yes, knowing may change things - but so does forgiveness.

OW wasn't the only instance. This has been a pretty consistent message throughout our M.

does this^^^ mean he's had other EAs or PAs? OR that the message is consistent to you?

There's a big difference for me. In the former case, it suggests a pattern and not a fluke, or aberration.

In the latter case, it MIGHT be your perception that needs changing. At least it's possible.

It just seems that anyone and everyone is more valued/fun/entertaining/lovable/important/etc. than me. It's not so much a matter of leaving FIRST, but more a matter of not having a reason to stay.

BUT!! We're back to talking about H's actions. That's not good.

actually we are talking about how YOU FEEL, and that matters. It is why you are here.

And it is something you can work on IF you want to. If I thought you could make significant changes in your behavior and attitude towards your h -

and that he'd still not change an iota, I would be shocked and maybe not too supportive of your efforts.

But I have seen too many marriages change, w/ both partners, to believe it's impossible. IMO, when one person changes consistently over time. the other tends to change as well.

Why? B/c as you probably know, the more secure a spouse feels, the more loved they feel, the more loving they become.

Meanwhile, as you make the changes to loving him more fully, (if you do choose that)

the more loving you FEEL and that's NOT bad.

If you feel "This is unfair" the whole time you are supposedly being more loving,

then it can't work. I hope this makes sense.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

I need to know how to WANT to invest in him, to want to [b]sacrifice]b] for him.

I would warn ANYONE to be very, very careful about following a path of sacrifice.

True sacrifice is an act of unconditional love.

True sacrifice is not a selfish act, it is a selfless act.

At risk of using language of judgement here, I have witnessed very few pure acts of sacrifice.

My opinion is, DO NOT SACRIFICE YOURSELF, unless you are able to do so without expectations and without resentment due to unfulfilled expectations.

That would be unfair to yourself and to your S.

So much of what Sandi2 stated in her last post I feel is so relevant. As much as I'd love to quote and stress many of the points I noticed from my perspective of her post, I wanted to mention just a few:

Originally Posted By: sandi2

I had to realize he would never be better. He was nearing retirement and he would never climb the "success ladder" any higher. He would never please me in how he kept the back yard, and he would continue to bring junk home to add to his other junk. He would always take all day to think about what he was going to do that day. He would never be the great handyman like my neighbor. He would not measure up in to my father, in my eyes. He would never open open up and talk to me the way I wanted him to, b/c he didn't know how. Neither would he give me the emotional intimacy I wanted b/c he apparently didn't know how to do that either. In other words, he would never change! I really didn't have any hope in him making any kind of change.

I have not doubt that is how my W feels about me. The difference between her and sandi2 (and possibly yourself) is that my W hasn't made any decision to accept the above and still stay together. Without knowing that I can change and I can be more of what she would like, still be true to myself, and still not be exactly what she wants, but could certainly (in her eyes) a better version of myself...

I feel this is so very important to wholly accept, especially for a WAS to turn around, as well as for an LBS (of their WAS) to start making the positive changes in themselves. The LBS makes a decision (in some form) that they will "fix" themselves and stand and rebuild an R with their spouse, even if their spouse never changes.

I suppose the difference is in some ways just semantics. The LBS would not see that as sacrifice.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

...my H had used those two words to me so much, I hated it with a passion!

I think the above is great, because often the WAS will say outright, or follow the ILYB speech with having "lost that loving feeling" and/or "I don't feel passion" in regards to the M... yet... it is quite certain that there is passion... it just happens to be of the negative kind...

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Maybe I had good reason to feel like I did toward a lot of things, but what I've learned about M, is that most of it is forgiving. Some people say they "overlook" the faults of their S's, but that's just a word for forgiveness.

Wow, that is a very powerful statement.

When we aren't keeping score, life (and R's) are often a constant (yet subtle or unstated) serious of forgiving.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Forgiveness is a choice.

I feel that is such a great summary.

You don't have to forgive. You may not feel your H deserves your forgiveness and as sandi2 says, he may not deserve your forgiveness.

That is neither right nor wrong.

Your choice, whatever it ends up being, will not be right or wrong.

It will simply be a choice. And once you make that choice, you can move forward... you have everyone's right in life... that of the freedom... of choice...

You are getting some great help and support from so many top posters. That's a great sign, because when those vets are focused on someone, it often leads to great breakthroughs (as it's a sign that there's hope and belief that you will get your "lightbulb" moment, soon).

So much to go back on in your threads and if anything appears to have been forgotten, it will likely come back in new posts, anyhow.

I did want to touch on this, quick:

Originally Posted By: Crazyville

I am interested to hear your feedback, to hear what I'm supposed to do to somehow offset H's fantasy.

Remember how I mentioned that men can be (read: ARE) dumb as stumps when it comes to women?

It's pretty simple. More often than not, men want what they are told (or more generally think) they can't have.

And those men who get what they were told they can't have? It's because they rose up and did what they needed to do.

A woman gets what she wants when she pretends she doesn't want it (him).

The trick is to be you in a way that he can't have you, while knowing in your heart that you want him and believe that he will do what it takes to have you, without compromising who he sincerely is, while you are planted firmly in being true to yourself and fully available to him, if he'd stop running around like his head was cut off.

IOW: It's not a game of tactics and manipulation. He can HAVE you, but NOT OWN you. It's almost an evolutionary thing that when a man finally stops chasing what he wants... he finally realizes he already has it, he just has to step up... and into it...

This will be explained better when you've progressed to a point where you are ready for this course of action.

Sandi,

Just wanted to say I really appreciated your two latest posts here. So very meaningful for me. My MC told me that I face the same choice now that you did then. Accept that W will never change, will never provide what I have believed I need from this marriage. If I cannot accept, then I need to leave. Reading how you went through that and how you thought about it was very helpful.

Accuray

Starting a new thread.... part 4