Horrible day...I thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown.
Hello I'm going through the hell of a waw...says she doesn't love me wants out (late 7/11). I buy divorce busting within a few days of her confession, we go to therapy, I try to do some of Michele's suggestions and my w's reasonable requests...recovery(?) late 9/11 (I stop reading divorce busting). Following w's suggestions everyday. Find out w is still unhappy and wants out 1/12. I panic start reading divorce busting again. Attempt 180 experiments 2/12...w seems more withdrawn then ever. This week says she wants out again...no attraction to me, doesn't love me. Still trying 180 but I don't feel like I'm making any dent in her ice armor. Not sure what to do, I have 2 D's (one D 5 the other, almost 2). I can't imagine not seeing my blessed children every day. I can't imagine not being with my w every day. Still love her. Loosing hope. Please help?
Dear HNN-
I'm so sorry you are in this situation with your wife.
Let's start again, as if you never started before. Most everyone on this board understands the heartbreak and is here to help. We can give you support, and help you use Michele's materials to help you detect solutions for yourself. Many folks here can tell you what has and has not worked for them. So--we're here for you.
So...let's talk about a few things:
-her confession, did she confess anything other than she wants out and doesn't love you?
-what did you try? when you say a 180---what does that mean to YOU? (It might not mean the same thing to her, and it might mean, there isn't enough time by HER standards)
-what you focus on expands: what is GOOD between the two of you? OR--what USED TO BE good? How did you fall in love? How long have you been together? When did this change?
Hang in there...there is still hope.
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.
30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes
Thanks for the kind words and advice.
I was very brief with my initial post but my w was in the other room and I didn't want her to see me on this site.
"what did you try? when you say a 180---what does that mean to YOU? (It might not mean the same thing to her, and it might mean, there isn't enough time by HER standards)
-what you focus on expands: what is GOOD between the two of you? OR--what USED TO BE good? How did you fall in love? How long have you been together? When did this change?"
Those are great questions dbmod and I should be able to answer them below:
My W and I met at work and within about 1.5 yr of a pretty intense wonderful R got married (almost 9 yrs now).
I did find out some great things about her during the first phase of our R:
1. She's smart.
2. Sexy
3. Great sex (except for oral...more on that below).
4. Beautiful (inside and outside)
5. We made each other laugh and had great fun together.
Some challenging things I found out during the first phase of the R:
1. Didn't really like the "future" in laws very much (big family, almost have there own culture, loud and obnoxious, I'm a geek who is not into sports at all, they were huge sports fans, very religious and I'm not).
2. Big sex drive difference between us (mine is high, her's is low)...this I've read (and seen) is common so I tried to not let it bother me.
3. She was not open with her emotions(I really had to dig to get any info about her emotional state).
4. Very pushy...her way or the highway.
5. Her family was structured as matriarchy (MIL clearly ran things). My family is very patrichial (which I still have difficulties checking my self from sliding into). I really wanted an egalatarian R.
6. This sounds silly but...she is huge country music fan, I could only stand a little bit of it...now I HATE IT!
7. Found out during engagment that her brother attempted sibling incest when she was in middle school. She felt that this detered her sex drive (and I'm guessing this really warped her perception about sex and intimacy...please chime in on this any pysch majors).
Got married. Things were still great but of course, the passion was dying down which was normal and expected. About 1.5 yrs into M she flirted heavily with a coworker of mine (right in front of me) and this really destroyed all trust I had for her. She was not at all apologetic about this until months later (she said it was just a crush). Still have trust issues to this day not sure I far the "crush" went. Though for the most part I forgave her...
Our first D is born and M really changes with new baby. Post partum depression hits her...we are both exhuasted and short tempered (very colicky baby). Still we perserver. M still on solid ground and we very much love each other.
About 2 yr after baby is born I start to have really second thoughts about my W. Very sexually frustrated (the meds she was on really lowered W's libido). I'm thinking about having A but I do not. Family and M is too important to me. I love my W very much despite frustrations. I didn't mention this to my W until very recently. I'm assuming this was just a phase/adjustment/adaptation I had to go through as a H.
Last summer she is fed up with me not helping around the house, not attracted to me any more (I've gained about 30 lb since first D was born), I'm too critical of her and her family, too political, not a christian, too demanding, too different. I write all this down as she is telling me this and I swore to her that I would work on all of these issues and I have (with some back sliding but I immediately reverse the trend if I notice it). We go to conseling and progress appears to be made. W tells me things are OK now (early Fall). I ask her how things are going about once a month, attempting not to be pushy (at this time I had read bout 1/2 of DB). We seem to have weathered a major gale but are still afloat and on course.
Mid January this year, I'm shocked out of my mind to hear, even though I have made tremendsous progress she still is not attracted to me (it has been very hard for me to loose weight now that I'm older and the second D was born).
I start working out in earnest. Attempt some 180s (I've stopped telling her that I love her, stopped texting her during the day, tried but I keep on failing to NOT hug and give her a kiss after work, stopped nagging for sex, tried to appear happy and content though I feel like I'm going insane).
I'm trying to stay strong but I'm afraid things haven't reached there minimum yet. She has almost completely withdrawn from me...we still live together but no sex and hardly any affection. I'm really concerned that is has found somedbody else but she repeatedly deny this I'm very intently attempting to keep my self obsessed with her having an A.
I hope this provides more detail.
Thanks.
"but she repeatedly deny this I'm very intently attempting to keep my self obsessed with her having an A."
Whoops that should say - I'm intently attempting NOT to keep obsessing about her having an A.
Another thing that has me worried is that she has been hanging with her Mom a lot who just a year ago seperated from her second husband (and since her family tends to follow each other's tails I immediately was fearful for my marriage a year ago when I heard about the separation - perhaps I set my self up by being so anxious).
I realize that I can't stop her from having an A or getting bad advice from her Mom...what I need to focus on is GAL and somehow keeping my anger, fear, and sadness in check (mindfullness meditation helps but it is so hard to do right now).
Horse did you read the 37 rules above??? Please do. I am sorry to say but right now she does not want a future with you. Stop worrying about her having an A. Keep working on yourself and keep posting. You need to do things that you like or always wanted to do. This is for you. Hang in there
Hang in there horse. This divorce busting takes time. Follow the 37 rules and eventually acting as if will be more natural. She knows you well and worries you'll go back to your old ways. It's still too soon.
Thanks for the advice guys. Backsliding is surprisingly easy to do!
But what worries me is w becomes obssessed with her decisions (she is somewhat ocd) so I'm afraid that no matter how ill advised her decision is she is so stubborn that she won't back down until after the ramifications hit (we have an $18k mistake in the garage - I forgot to mention her financial mistakes). So I think I have a very tough road ahead and I'm trying to memorize the 37 steps!
Positive signs: w actually nagged me a few times (she hasn't done that in a while and according to Michelle this is a good sign).
She mentioned she is unhappy again. I told her I understand and that we all feel unhappy sometimes...I was trying not to negate her feelings but empathize with her.
Found out during engagment that her brother attempted sibling incest when she was in middle school. She felt that this detered her sex drive (and I'm guessing this really warped her perception about sex and intimacy...please chime in on this any pysch majors).
I hate to be the one to tell you this but this is a horse of different color.
Sorry.
I only know from my own experience. My W was the victim of sibling perpetrated sexual abuse.
I am going to say something that may be hard for you to hear or believe BUT that you need to consider:
Children are not born with this.
It is put upon them by sexual predators. Her brother learned it from someone else. Who?
Who knows. Might be someone in her family.Might not be.
She is not going to be open with you about the extent of what happened or the details because there is a great deal of shame. They feel somehow responsible for the crime.
I encourage you to read up on this topic because it will help you to understand what is happening to your W and help you to detach from this.
Next big thing you need to understand and this a biggie:
YOU DIDN'T BREAK HER AND YOU CAN'T FIX HER.
The mechanism they used to cope with the brutal reality of what was happening to them was actually healthy as child to cope with it. It doesn't work as an adult.
The severity of how this manifests in adult life can vary and is a function of the severity of the abuse and the abuser.
You will find some commonality with victims. Low self esteem. Victim stance. disassociation <---- look that up. Coping with drugs and/or alcohol is common.
This experience that they carry around never goes away it is always waiting there. It can only get better if they decide to deal with the demon.
SHE has to decide to do that Horse.
I am not an expert or a medical professional so what I tell you is what I learned through my own experience.
The best advice I can give you is to detach. The used to be a link on here to a website on detachment on the livestrong website. I am not sure we are allowed to post it here.
DB Mod?
But it is very helpful and check the resource threads at the top of this forum.
My thread is in MLC forum called "The salvation within" you can see what I went through when I got here 2 years ago by linking back to earlier threads my first thread was "W has PTSD" or something like that. Search PTSD you'll find it.
You have to be strong for your children and your W. What she is going through I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
Keep posting Horse.
Horse it s#cks to be sure. Like rick said the best bit of advice is very simple. I am sorry to say but right now she does not want a future with you. Stop worrying about her having an A. Keep working on yourself and keep posting. You need to do things that you like or always wanted to do. This is for you. Hang in there
I struggled with this too. Right now she is gone. Once you embrace that simple truth you will feel much better. (by the way - that does not mean abandon all hope.)
Thanks for the info truegritter. I've read some information about sibling incest but not nearly enough. I'm not sure how long this went on...I do know that she feels guilty about it because she said that she didn't really try to stop him. I've attempted to get her to try to talk to me about it, but she will not (I'm certainly not going to talk about it now, though during the summer, after her first bomb drop, I did mention that because of her experience she may have difficulties with intimacy, for example sometimes we would have fantastic sex and she would act completely cold to me for days after...in fact, we had great sex a week before her second bomb drop...its been almost total ice since then...and I can't believe that, that is just a conincidence).
Drug problems - mostly legal stuff...she takes pain killers like candy because of headaches. She recently tapered herself off zoloft and I know that withdrawal symptoms for that particular med can be ghastly (its funny how some of the legal stuff can be the worst for you).
I'll look for some of your posts. It's hard to get on here sometimes. Mostly at work...boss has started to notice.
Thanks folks.
Horse...I'm new here to but there are a lot of comparisons in our stories. If you read my posts...Need to get it out....you may see what I've seen reading through yours. You are not alone. I know how hard it is as I'm struggling as you are with aspects of it. Be strong.
Lost_in_WA: Wow...quite a few similarities. However, my W hasn't been through as much therapy as your W.
The thing that worries me is the difficulty with intimacy that victims of incest suffer from. How can we help them get past that and really open up their hearts? There has been a few moments where she seemed really warm and accepting of me. But almost always there seems to be a wall between us. And that is what worries me about DB's 180s is that it seems like it will be an opportunity for her to withdraw even further. Sometimes when I practice 180s I feel like I'm being too cold to her. Anybody else feel this way?
Thanks.
I've been asking myself some of the same questions. There have been times in our relationship where my W had difficulty with intimacy as well. I'm trying my best to educate myself and just ordered the book the wounded heart. I believe it's by dr adeller. It was recommended by TG I believe. I was hoping it may give me some insight. I wish I could understand more, but I'm not at that point yet. I can only offer that you are not alone and others are experiencing similar difficulties too. I'm not sure if that merits any relief, but I take comfort knowing that I may be able to seek advice on this site from people that have been here too. I've been db'n pretty consistently for the last 2 weeks or so and I have similar concerns of being to cold...but I believe that many of the good people on here provide that advice because it works. I have seen glimmers of hope and many of the db'n steps having positive results so far.
The thing that worries me is the difficulty with intimacy that victims of incest suffer from. How can we help them get past that and really open up their hearts?
You CAN'T.
That is the first thing you have to get through your head.
You didn't break her and you CAN'T fix her.
She has to decide to do it.
She may NEVER decide to do that.
When you research this you will find books to help for partners of victims of childhood sexual abuse.
You need to understand as much as you can about this so you can get to a place where you CAN be a source of strength and calm for her
IF <--------
She decides to deal with this.
This is the toughest thing you will ever endeavor to achieve in your life.
At times you will hurt so bad watching someone that you care so much about treat themselves so badly.
It is like dealing with an alcoholic or other abuser. Until they make the choice to change their life...
You can't do anything.
You have to remove yourself from the sh!tstorm that is going on inside her.
Don't try and figure out what's going on in her head because she doesn't even know.
I struggled with detaching and thought the same thoughts that doing so would create even more distance.
What you have to realize and know is it is the best thing here.
The detachment is healthy for both of you but especially for you.
You can't help her if you are both out of the boat and drowning.
There is hope as you will read in your research about this.
But it takes a while and it is totally up to them as to when.
So this is not plain vanilla walk away wife here.
It is that with nuts on top.
So... what are you prepared to do for your marriage if you have no guarantee it can be saved?
What did you mean when you said your vows?
When you said for better or worse?
Every person here has had to answer these questions and the answers are personal
And someone's timeline might not be another's.
But the process should be the same.
In the end you will have made a choice based on who you are and you will have lived that...
You will not be the victim of what some deranged idiot chose to do to your W many years ago.
You will be a survivor. And maybe...
Maybe.
Your marriage will be saved too.
So now begins the journey about YOU. What kind of man do you aspire to be?
Who are you?
I have put a bunch in here for you to digest.
Answer the questions first.
Hi, and welcome. You will get great support here as long as you post as often as you can.
My heart goes out to you and your W. I'm no professional either, but based on what you've said about your W, it seems like she really loves having sex with you, but whenever she allows herself to enjoy it....the shame factor quickly follows. It's like she shouldn't enjoy sex b/c that means she's bad. She feels shame that she didn't try harder to stop the incest. IDK, but I think that may have a lot to do with her having a wall between you and for acting cold the next day.
Seems to me that a therapist would need to council with her and with you.
And that is what worries me about DB's 180s is that it seems like it will be an opportunity for her to withdraw even further. Sometimes when I practice 180s I feel like I'm being too cold to her. Anybody else feel this way?
Thanks.
I think the majority of newcomers are leery of the 180's. So, you're not alone. Here's the main thing you need to understand about applying 180's, and that is you are not to behave in a cold manner toward your W. A lot of men have trouble understanding that "detachment" does not mean you ignore her, or shut her completely out, or act like you're mad or moody. That is not what detachment is about.
Detaching is pulling back. Stop contacting her as much as you use to do. Don 't smother her by wanting to know every move she makes. Don't hang over her when at home together.
Listen, your heart will not detach, but your actions can. LBH's are always concerned about the W thinking he's being cold. Don't worry about that. If you act nicely while stepping back....she won't think you're cold. You will be surprised how your pulling back...will actually draw her in.
A lot of what you are feeling is fear. Don't let that control you. Trust the principles that DR teaches.
I went retrograde with 180s this morning without thinking. I told my wife that we love her (referring to myself and our little D's) during a panic attack she was having this morning (we were having utility service issues and this stressful event really threw her anxiety into overdrive).
How badly do you think I screwed up? Will I have to start over?
How did she respond? Was she upset at what you said. We all make mistakes just learn from it and keep the good work going. Don't beat yourself up.
Hey Horse I agree with Rick. IMHO letting an I Love You slip while she was in a time of crisis isn't that big of a backslide. She already knows you love her, I think the DB principle is that when they hear us say it, it's implied we want to hear it back which stresses them out/makes them pull away. Don't sweat it and keep your chin up just try not to do it going forward. Good luck!
Thanks guys.
I did do some more back sliding just a few days ago when I found out W was on new anti-depressant/anti-anxiety drug (lexapro this time) which shocked me because she hated taking Zoloft (she was only off of it for a month) because of the side effects. W informed me that her anxiety was just too intense for her to deal with. So instead leaving it at that...I start inquiring what is the problem (you'd think I'd learn to leave well enough alone)...which of course starts an arguement and then following the pattern she gives me the same stereotypical WAW stuff again ("I want out", "I hate being here", "I don't like you", "There is nothing you can do", etc.,etc.).
The day after our fight we go to counseling with a new therapist (thank God I scheduled an appointment ahead of time and no I don't think her anxiety issues flaring up a day before the appointment was a coincidence). He seems pretty good, very systematic and solutions oriented with a good success rate (about 95%). Except he wants us to work on "homework assignments" within the month. Both my W and myself are expected to go on dates and talk about nothing but ourselves (specifically if I set up the date to do an activity that I know my W loves I'm supposed to be completely focused on her). This sound a bit pushy to me...on the positive side he said if the initial assigment doesn't work he'll have us try other experiments. What do you guys think about this? I'm really thinking about paying the $$ for a DB coach...has anyone attempted just the one session or should I go for broke and sign up for the 3 session?
Why are you getting involved in and getting yourself worked up over her medication? You created friction, let it become and argument, and fed her justification for wanting out. Sorry, but if she's an adult and has a doctor prescribing for her, the extent of your involvement in that should probably just be feeling good that she's making an effort to manage her healthcare.
Again, why have an opinion of her anxiety issues flaring before a therapy appointment? You sound very involved in her head. If analyzing her behavior is helping you to understand her and where she's coming from, such as if that understanding makes you more patient with potential outbursts the day before therapy, that's probably helpful. The way it was written sounded a little more condescending than compassionate - maybe I read too much into your words?
IMHO it sounds like you need to focus on the DB solution-oriented system. Try something for a while - a couple of weeks, not just one incident, and take note of whether it draws her closer or pushes her away. Sounds like your we-love-you in the moment that she was having difficulty was sweet, unrehearsed - did you find any backlash or negative effect from it? Sounds like your inquiries into her mental state or challenges of her medical decisions would have a negative effect. Watch how she responds to your 180s and if going darker doesn't sound like the right thing, try what you think is right. See if it works and if so keep doing it.
If your assignment sounds pushy why not ask W if it sounds like something she would like to try or if she thinks it sounds too pushy.
Hang in there!
I've had one conseling session with a coach...very constructive and worth the money. And I think we are making progress...my W is finally opening up with some truthful information (I hope).
My W confessed to having an affair (really, surprise, surprise...not!...though I was virtually certain she was having an affair knowing for certain made it hurt a lot more). Then she said she wanted an apartment (I also predicted that one), but I convinced her to stay for the sake of our D's (2 yrs and 5 yrs) but only if we opened up the marriage (polyamory was something I thought about when I wanted an affair but didn't about 2 yrs ago...thinking a thought is quite a bit different then actually acting it out...obviously my W doesn't have this problem). We created some ground rules for the open marriage that we both could agree with...though I don't believe she will follow through on them since see 1. she didn't follow through on her vows when we got married and 2. she refused to write the rules down and sign off on them (W didn't want to be "locked into anything"...hmm why agree to any obligation why not do whatever we "feel" like? Obviously a sense of honor, duty, and shame is something my W doesn't have much in abundance) 3. she has been lying for months about the affair why would I believe she would follow through on anything.
Now I know that she is a victim of sibling incest and I'm certain that, that experience has completely warped her sense of normal sexuality and intimacy but...she is in nearly constant state of denial about what happened to her and it is up to her to confront her perceptions of reality. But how will she ever do that since she is the least introspective person I have ever met?
Nothing much more to add here I just hope she doesn't emotionally scar our kids any more then she has (we had our discussion about the affair while my oldest D was in the next room despite my objections and despite that my D was getting visibly upset). I know it is next to impossible for me to think of my W other then a cold hearted, incredibly selfish, s%ut but...I am trying. And believe it or not I did forgive her for having an affair but...the incredible amount of lying...not just yet.
There has been some progress since my last post. My W did apologize for lying to me but didn't apologize for the affair itself. It is a start, and to be honest the lying made me more upset then the affair itself(what H or W hasn't fanastized about an affair?)so I'm greatly relieved and appreciative about the apology.
However, as Michelle Weiner-Davis has warned in her Divorce Remedy book...once you know about the affair and you really want to save your marriage you will find that your emotional response about the affair will be getting in the way of your best efforts. For example, I snapped at my wife a couple of weeks ago for not saying "good night" to me and we have been sleeping in separate bedrooms since. As Jody (my DB coach) has recommeded...if any of you out there are going through a similar experience - find a safe place somewhere where you can cry, scream, throw things, whatever, without upsetting your spouse and/or children. It is simply almost impossible to hold in the negative emotions indefinitely.
Right now I'm just trying to be a good friend to my wife. And as John Gottman (psychologist specializing in marriages...look him up he is good) states (and so does Michelle) that being a good friend to your troubled spouse is the best thing to do. Oh and lots of space and a godlike amount of patience (something I'm not very good at but I'm getting better)!
What I have been dreading for months finally happened during marriage counseling (MC) this week - my W announced that she is "done" with our marriage. In fact, that morning prior to MC my W put a deposit on a apartment. This has been one hell of an month - find out she has been having an affair early in the month, we start sleeping in separate rooms in the middle of the month, and now she wants out of the house entirely (sometime in the middle of May). As one would guess I'm a wreck right now - just too much grief...way too much. You would think she would spread the blows out a little better...man I feel like crap (and our 9th anniversary is coming up in early May, right after my daughters birthday...how nice). I feel worse for the kids, they are so little, how are they going to get through this if I'm a mess?
Only recourse I have is to keep on GAL and try my best to be her calm, helpful friend and father of her children. I'll probably head over to my parents this weekend to grieve and try to put my self together for the long road ahead. Only bright side is she says she is done with the OM...may be I can believe that, I don't know? I know most of you folks are going through the same thing...heaven help us.
I'm sorry to hear about your latest developments, Horse. I'm in a similar situation in that my W wants out and is planning on getting her own apartment starting June 1st. We have been separated for the last two weeks, me living in our new home which we took possession of April 15th and her staying at our condo which she has to be out of at the end of May. Our 9yr anniversary is May 24th so I feel your pain
We also did the separate bedrooms thing for a week and to be honest I'm much happier being in my own place right now. It is hard not seeing her everyday but at the same time the distance does lessen the pain to some extent. Hang in there, like everyone here says, time is your friend.
Yeah. I'm starting to feel a little better about the separation. I'm still terrified for my children but I've been reading a book recommended by our MC - The Truth About Children and Divorce by Robert Emery. Apparently the devasting effects that children can experience during divorce that can propagate throughout their lives can be mitigated; IF the parents minimize conflict and work to have joint custody under a peaceful and respectful environment as possible. A very tall order indeed, but my W and I have promised to keep this as amicable as possible and, though I still love her I've promised to be her friend and to be a good parenting partner. I'm not advocating divorce here...I just believe that I can accomplish two things - 1. By being calm, decent, and being a responsible dad this separation hopefully won't be that horrible for my kids. 2. If I can be a loving, kind, cheerful friend to my wife she just might realize that life with me isn't so unbearable and that she will come back. That's my hope!
Best of luck to you too Hoser.
Oh I forgot to mention...to all you folks out there who are having a very hard time keeping your cool - it can be done. As Michelle states in DR and what other have posted here: find a place and time to vent, cry, and cool down.
Here are some examples that I've experienced recently: For weeping - I've found a place in our basement that is very private.
For cooling down - my wife has a bad habit of stripping down right in front(most of her cloths are still in my room) of me even though she knows how much I love her and how attracted to her I am. She did this to me yesterday and I nearly let her have it with a self rightous rant. But I went to the computer room, checked my email, and the weather, and managed to control my temper. I realized I needed to talk to her in a respectful manner...I went to her room and in a very friendly way, requested that she not strip in front of me any more because she knows how I feel about her. To my amazement she immediately apologized (she rarely apologizes for anything) and said that she would make a conscious effort not to "tease" me (we haven't had sex in over 2 months, plus I'm working out all the time so my sex drive is going through the roof) like that again.
I can be a real hot head and a real ranting jerk sometimes...so folks...if I can do it you can to!
It was hard seeing my W's intended apartment for the first time yesterday. W told me that lease signing is in a week and that she plans on being moved in completely within a maximum of three weeks. Good grief this is going way too fast for me! I know that we wouldn't reconsile until after she moved out...but...boy this is hard to contemplate.
At least I'm past the weepy stage of this separation (though I'm sure it will come back). Now I'm dealing primarily with anger and resentment and trying to go through DR last resort technique. I'm thinking about throwing in a new 180 - getting rid of the terms of endearment e.g. "hon", "bebez", etc. and just calling my W by first name...man that will be hard.
Any advice from the more experienced crowd who has gone through WAS and a move-out of W/H? Thanks.
The draft joint custody agreement that my W and I worked on went out to the lawyer yesterday so that he can review and add legalese. I'm impressed with how my W and I maturely put the agreement together...we even had a few laughs. This was hard because it really put the situation in sharp focus...the separation is becoming a reality...and I still very much love my wife. Though my faith has been shaken lately. Last week my W tells the MC that once we separate she might get back with the OM. That news shocked me because just a few days prior she told me that "it was just a fling...I haven't seen him in weeks." Quite frankly if the lying doesn't stop soon this marriage will be over!
Anyway, next week she is officially out of the house and into her apartment. I just hope I don't become a total emotional wreck. I've got to keep on GALing!
Thanks to all of you for sharing and providing helpful advice...it has strengthened my faith in "the kindness of strangers."
I helped my W move some of her stuff to her new apartment today. This impressed my MIL who said "wow may be you guys will get back together". This made me feel better but within seconds my W responds to her mother - "I don't know mom"; in a very dead pan way. Geez...I've got a long road ahead. But until she lets go of the OM within a few months, I don't see much of a future for us. She has repeated to me that the OM is not her boyfriend...just a friend (while I'm busy biting my tongue till it bleeds I'm thinking..."yeah a friend with benefits").
But in all honesty I don't have a clue as to what is going on!
She is moving out completely in two day...I'll just keep on going with DR and GALing...and giving her the space and time she needs. Man it is tough being the happy, helpful friend while getting stabbed in the back!
I'm sorry to hear that you are going thrum this. It looks like younarebdoing a great job acting as if. My h just emailed me after no contact for over 4 weeks Bc he wants to get the rest of his stuff so I can empathaisze with what you are going through.
But until she lets go of the OM within a few months, I don't see much of a future for us.
And what makes you think that will happen?
Not trying to break your stones.
Haven't read your sitch all the way.
So
(Starsky hates when I put these poetic pauses in)
But in all honesty I don't have a clue as to what is going on!
Well that is an understatement
You don't and you won't. I think you know enough.
Man it is tough being the happy, helpful friend while getting stabbed in the back!
Yes that will get old. and you will get resentful.
Why are you doing this?
Thanks hoping. This is by far the most stressful experience I've ever had. Good luck to you.
Thanks for the tough questions truegeitter. I am not sure why I'm still fighting so hard. I guess because I still love her and more importantly I love my family I love the collective us. Now that my w is leaving that us is dead. My identity was wrapped up in the idea of family. It is so hard to think of myself as a single dad...isolated from my w. I know that most likely I'm headed towards divorce because that's what my w decided to do and she always gets what she wants..consequences be damned! I know I have to completely let go.
Well my W moved out yesterday. It was a sad day...but it is somewhat of a relief that she is out...much less tension between us now. I just hope she follows through on the joint custody agreement. I really don't have any evidence that she will follow through on anything.
Just GALing now and saving cash for the inevitable.
It has been over a week now that my wife and I are at separate residences. I'm starting to get used to being separated but I miss, very much, the family...the "us". Strange thing is the resentment I feel for my W has seriously eroded my love for her. She has changed so much in 12 months that the feelings and thoughts I had for her don't match the person. I feel very disoriented right now.
Strange thing is the resentment I feel for my W has seriously eroded my love for her.
I understand that feeling but I want to ask you:
Who is that up to?
Whose choice is it?
When you said you would love her all the days of your life you meant until she did this?
I soo love the questions your ask TG.
They require real soul searching!
Yes truegritter knows the socratic method, that much is certain!
The love I feel for my W is up to me. But how many individuals love their spouses unconditionally? I think I love my children unconditionally but that kind of love is very different.
The way I see it I have to some how tease out the true feelings I have for my W from what is expected of us as a married couple. I mean Western society looks at a married couple as a stable reproductive unit, which is dependent on sex. Unless both spouses agree that they will seek additonal sexual partners, i.e. open marriage...acquiring a lover without such a mutual agreement, is in my mind, a breach of "contract". I think I still love my W...but I don't know if I can ever trust her again. Would I not be a fool if I trusted her again without a full apology and a promise that she would never do such a thing again?
I guess I'm angry that she had a PA while I was working so hard on addressing her grievances. I would still be mad if she had a PA and I wasn't trying...but I guess I'd understand. May be I'm more confused as to why she did it when I was trying so hard to fix the marriage. I just don't understand her behavior and that is why I'm angry/frustrated?
Perhaps the separation will be like a reboot and after a time we might slowly get back together. But how can there ever be a relationship again without trust? In my current state would I even recognize acts of love (versus her just attempting to attenuate her guilt, for example)?
Geez truegritter - your questions have just spawned more questions...may be that is the point of the socratic method?
The way I see it I have to some how tease out the true feelings I have for my W from what is expected of us as a married couple. I mean Western society looks at a married couple as a stable reproductive unit, which is dependent on sex. Unless both spouses agree that they will seek additonal sexual partners, i.e. open marriage...acquiring a lover without such a mutual agreement, is in my mind, a breach of "contract".
A violation of which I would agree would be terms for for your discord. The deeper side?
This is not just about f@cking is it?
Not to most of us anyway.
What is it for you? What is the mystery for you?
Would I not be a fool if I trusted her again without a full apology and a promise that she would never do such a thing again?
you would be a fool only if you accepted her back without believing it in whatever form it comes.
A violation of which I would agree would be terms for for your discord. The deeper side?
The deeper side I imagine would be that she lied about how she felt about the marriage since early October 2011 (she said it was OK...essentially mislead me). Then dropped the bomb on me a second time this January. And then instead of working with me and our MC she simply quits (which is her habit...things get tough - quit), though she continues to go, playing an act (?), has an affair (multiple affairs?), admits to what she did, and then moves out. She has treated me like a piece of property that she is bored with and tossed aside. I guess I believe she has utterly disregarded me as a human being. So no it isn't just about sex.
What is it for you? What is the mystery for you?
The mystery I guess is: how could she treat me like I was just some toy that she got bored with and toss in the garbage without any empathy for me as a human being? Ten years in a relationship and nine years married, two beautiful little daughters, and she just gives up? I just can't fathom how she could just throw that away!
you would be a fool only if you accepted her back without believing it in whatever form it comes.
I guess the problem is lack of empathy...I don't empathize with her position or her decision to leave, so would I be able to recognize some vague attempt to reconcile if it comes? I don't know. May be I shouldn't worry about it until I've given myself time to heal.
She has treated me like a piece of property that she is bored with and tossed aside.
I know how that feels and so do most of the people here.
You have to decide whether you accept that characterization you "think" she thinks of you as your own "truth"
Let's open our eyes wide here Horse.
You know your shortcomings in this mess.
What were they?
Yes she f@cked up and most here would agree that stepping outside the M was not excusable.
So swing away. Smash away. And yourself along with your M.
Self righteousness gets you through the first three months here.
Until you deide to stop being a victim of your wife's choices, you won't make any progress here.
When I asked you about what the mystery is.
I didn't mean figuring out your W's choices.
You may never know that.
I mean why you are here. What your vows meant to you.
What you mean when you say you love someone. Cause this is the hardest test of that don't you think?
I mean why would you after what she has done to you?