Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: zig am i on the right track??? - 02/22/12 11:19 PM
hi everyone
i'm new to this board and simply don't know where to start. i feel that there is soooo much to describe that it will be too long and no one will have the patience to read through the whole thing. so i will try to be as brief as possible.

my husband of 10 yrs said he had met someone else and moved out 6 months ago. he said that even though he loved me he "needed to explore and pursue this other thing". the ow is the sister of an old friend of his and she lives several states away. in the last 6 mos he has been down to see her a few times and she has been here once.

the first 2 months there were endless hours of talking almost everyday, a ton of crying - by both of us as i owned my part completely and wholeheartedly. his stance at that point was - i blame you 100% for ruining our marriage. i started detaching and pulling away as soon as i could, but he kept us in a confused chaotic place by constantly calling and coming over. at first i allowed him to do that, and several times tried to talk him into coming back and each time of course was met with more resistance. there was a HUGE amount of anger on his part, and now i realize that i did a total 180 right away and never responded with anger, but only with kindness and compassion and as much understanding as i could muster.
around the third month, i came across a website and signed up and started reading and it basically gave the same advice that michelle gives in her book - detach, practice apathy, get your own life and act happy no matter what. it also said to just keep telling him that i was happy for him and even though i wished it had worked out differently i was willing to get on with my life without him.

so i have done that assiduously for the last 3 months.

we have a 10 year old son, who is obviously quite affected by this, but will absolutely NOT show a thing to anyone , esp his father, and only to me. in fact he makes a point of being extra happy when he is with his dad and then when he comes back to me he lets it out a bit. H and i alternate so that he is one week at my house and one week at H's.

the general gist of what is going on is that whenever i pull back and am having fun, we will land up having a conversation where H cries and gets really emotional and tells me that he is terribly conflicted about what to do, but he's not willing to give up ow. i don't respond much and whereas earlier i would use that as an opportunity to ask him to reconsider , i completely stopped doing that. he says that he didn't expect me to react like this and be so amazing, and it put him in a terrible state of confusion. i have consistently been friendly, supportive, taken part on all family situations with a big smile on my face and never not once since this whole mess started been angry to him or accusatory.

about a month ago he tried to talk me into buying a second house so he could live rent free (he is the one with the job - i don't have work) and that way we could cut our shared expenses , because the house he is renting is quite expensive. i told him that it was not my responsibility to figure out his living situation - that he had chosen to do this, and that he had to figure out his own living situation. there was a perfectly good home right here and if he chose not to be here he had to figure out where he was going to be and how , on his own. i also told him that instead of just saying that he was conflicted, if he was so sure that he wanted to be with this other person, he should go right ahead and do it openly - that i was not going to hold him back. at one point i told him that i was happy to divorce and let him go if he was genuinely happy with the ow.

earlier he had admitted that he wanted an emotional divorce, but he wanted to stay married so i could have the health insurance.

well there has been a distinctive shift in the last 2 weeks - he is being much nicer - i am not sensing any anger form him for about the last month, and last week when our son was very sick, instead of leaving it to me, he came and stayed for 3 days at the house and we really shared in taking care of him through the night. H and i got ill too, and we took care of each other also. the atmosphere was really peaceful and i could tell that when it was time for him to leave he seemed reluctant to do so and seemed quite emotional. he came back the following 2 days and spent the afternoons here. i stayed relaxed and detached but friendly and made sure we didn't have any personal conversations, and also let him know before he left how much i appreciated feeling that we had done this togehter

i feel that he is definitely relaxing around me for the first time in all these months, and i'm not sure what to do next. believe me, i am not getting all my hopes up as i didn't even expect this yet. i have worked really hard at setting boundaries and not allowing him to keep bringing up little things from the past all the time, consistently pointing out ot him that we are in the now, and things are different. 2 or 3 times in the last few weeks, i have firmly told him that he can leave right this moment when he has started to act up and try to make us have a fight. it seems as if that has been very effective in getting him to be more respectful( i see it in the way that if he can keep finding reasons to be angry with me, he can keep justifying what he is doing)

a good development for us very recently has been that we have managed to have conversations where we have resolved some issue instead of landing up being irritated and pissed off, and i feel as if he has made quite an effort to do that - more than me in fact.

last sunday, he actually suggested the 3 of us go out to lunch before we went to buy a b'day present for his dad.

michelle says in her book that look and notice the small successes and don't miss them. but how do i know that these are "successes" rather than that he is just trying to be nice so he can get what he wants?

i know that in a way i have made it seem that things are going "well" but i can't tell if they are or not. i know i have to be very patient and this will take a very long time, but i don't really know how to detach in this situation, where we have almost daily contact because of our son and he is once in a while here, for parties or to eat dinner - and i don't know if i should continue to allow that to happen or not.

so i am sorry this is so long, and i look forward to what you all have to say. of course, there is much left out, but will post again soon with a pressing issue that i need to deal with in the next few days and could really use some help with

thanks so much for reading:)
zig
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/25/12 05:02 AM
oh i'm excited - my post has finally showed up after moderation, and i look forward to opinions and advice from you all:)

well - i screwed up yesterday - and sort of lost it - lost my precious patience that i have cultivated fro all these months. i have been trying for 6 mos. to get him to acknowledge that our son is emotionally really affected by this- in the first couple of months any suggestion of this by me would incite so much anger that i stopped saying anything, for almost 4 mos - unless he asked me and then i would tell him what i saw or felt about what s10 was going through.
now things are getting more obvious with s10 so that H;s parents have decided to go to therapy themselves to find out how they can help, and there have been several things that have been quite upsetting that i decided that now i had to push him to go specifically to co-parenting counseling

instead of listening and understanding what i was talking about - he started what i think of as wife bashing - lay into me with all the reasons why are marriage was [censored] and "how mean i had been to him for 10 yrs" and i simply got fed up in a big way, and told him some pretty harsh things - like i wish we didn't have a kid so then i wouldn't have to speak to or see you ever again - i wasn't super angry or anything but just fed up.

we landed up talking over 4 separate conversations, and in between i had to ask our son if he would stay until thursday with H because he was leaving to go abroad for 3 and 1/2 weeks and son just flat out said no, he wanted to be here with me and maybe if he felt like it would go over to his dad's for a night.

i was shocked - they adore each other and i never expected to hear our son say this - i think he is mad because his father keeps taking off on trips and this one is almost a month. it felt awful to tell H this , especially after some of the stuff i had said to him earlier. but i was still fed up with him - for 2 months he had been implying strongly that he was gone for a little over 2 weeks and then i finally found out 2 days ago that it was in fact almost a month (a few days of the work trip are with OW - he's taking a detour by her town!) i'm genuinely not mad about that - i've known about that for 2 months - it was about being given the impression that he was gone for a lot shorter time (a trigger form the past - he always under-informed until the last minute and i'd have to pick up major slack)

so all in all by the 4th conversation i finally got through to him, and i believe it was partly because he was so shocked himself that our son didn't want to be with him - it was the first direct "hit" after all these months from our son to him

he agreed that he would set up an apptmt before he left on his trip for when he came back - i firmly told him that he had to do exactly that, it was not enough to say it, and if he didn't then i would go on my own and make my own decisions and he couldn't question them afterwards.

this morning i realized that i needed to back pedal, as michelle says - i was angry yesterday and frustrated and felt as if i had undone months of hard work. so i called him - rare for me - and validated all that he had said, apologized for being so harsh, but frankly didn't take anything back, told him i agreed with everything he said about us including that we were better off without each other that he was right, and that i too did not want to be with him right now but that i was not backing off from going to co-parenting together.

I asked that even though he was so crazy angry and resentful towards me still, could he accept that i knew that very very well and would keep it in my mind but that when we talked about our son, he didn't bring it up and make that what the conversations were about.

we actually ended on a much better note than i expected, especially after i validated that it was really important for him that he went on this trip and i was really proud of what he was doing - which i genuinely am

so how bad did i mess up on the DB'ing path -

on the other hand, this morning i made an appointment with a pro-marriage counselor and am hoping she's read michelle's books and will see her next mon.

did i mention that i am a total pathetic wallowing mess, and it has finally got through to me now, that i HAVE to move on and let go for now,

i AM working hard on myself - god knows i have some serious issues that i need to work through - and i KNOW that this needed to happen to really wake me up to what i had been - ironically everyone except him is loving and enjoying the new better me

i am amazed though at all the insight that i am still getting into what our situation was and about our relationship even after six months - and i can see more and more how difficult it was for him. i can also see how difficult it was for me a little bit more now- and also beginning to really realize how much i was in denial about the trouble of our relationship

well, one of my definite problems is that i am a babbler - i cannot condense what i have to say - started after concussion from a car accident and still one of the things i have to work on, so i am sorry that my posts are already so long

thanks to everyone that this forum exists and i look forward to hearing from you
zig
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/25/12 05:20 AM
while i was reading some other posts i realized that i think i really screwed up yesterday - i can't remember what i said specifically but what H heard was that i accused him of giving up on our marriage without giving us a real shot. (the fact is he vehemently denied for 10 yrs that he was unhappy, even though i sensed he was and always replied - you're the one that's f**ked up, and unhappy not me. then the day he told me he was leaving he said that he was always unhappy)

he brought it up this morning and i can't even quite remember what i said - something along th lines of that he was right, he did try really hard

i know i feel the former - because in the beginning after the breakup he admitted to me that he would never have left if he hadn't met her. he also did say that he had been thinking about leaving for quite awhile, but wouldn't have pushed himself to do it .

the weird thing was that from the year before, both our families as well as myself had really noticed and talked several times about how it seemed that finally after all these years, H and i were doing so much better and were so much happier!!

i guess, i'll describe a bit in my next post are more than rocky start and the extremely stressful events during our 10 yrs

oh and i guess another crucial piece of the puzzle - i think there's MLC - the motorbike that he just simply had to have even though we absolutely did not have the money and the road trip he just had to take (actually back to visit and be in the area where he had his most "fun" years) and that's when he met the OW - 2 days after he picked up the bike - can you believe the luck!!!!! oh i paid for the bike - thinking - he never ever asks for anything ever, so now after all these years when he is asking how can i say no? ironic, huh/ guess i'm a bit pissed about it still!!

well enough venting!!

thanks
zig
Posted By: Cadet Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/25/12 10:20 AM
Welcome to the board.

You can have no EXPECTATIONS

Get the DR book and read it.
He is asking for SPACE, give it to him.
Let him control the contact
Continue with your detachment.
Get out and GAL.
There are no magic buttons or easy ways out of this.
The only solution is TIME.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.

Your H is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.

USE it wisely.
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/25/12 12:42 PM
Zig u sound like an amazing woman. Cadet gave u some real good advice. What were H's complaints about u and the M? What are your ages? What are you doing to keep busy and make yourself happy? Post short and often
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/25/12 02:09 PM
thank you cadet for all you said. you hit home on all points - especially the gift of time.

i know deep down that i need this time to become a better person.

i did read the DR book just a few days ago - my quandary in this is how to apply everything when there is a child involved - we were both super devoted to this child - but SEPARATELY for years - he always kept it separate - never really allowed us in a way to do everything together - only when it involved the rest of the family.

do i let him come over as often as he likes - offer for him to come? let him have dinner with us - be absolutely kind and generous all the time? or is it better to pull back and go dark? how to go dark if we have to talk about the kid and see him every couple of days

help i am really confused about this.

i'm so overwhelmed right now, that i can't remember exactly what i was doing a few weeks ago that turned everything to a better place, and now i think i just messed it up

we have a bit of a rocky history - very rocky in fact - horribly difficult and i think he just got overwhelmed completely.

i wrote a post last night telling o fhow i totally messed up DB'ing on thursday and now i'm scared - things were actually turning around and i just went and messed everything up!!
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/25/12 02:32 PM
rick - your words just made me want to cry - i can't see in the writing where i am amazing - i know everyone tells me that and has been saying for 6 mos, but i know so well how i was as a person and still find myself slipping back if i don't be careful

H's complaints - would fill a book - i was irresponsible - didn't want to shoulder the financial pressures and even though he constantly worried openly to me about it, i just never listened or got involved leaving all the pressure to him - i had serious anger issues, and never realized how extreme my outbursts were - and how incredibly difficult it was for him - i always excused myself saying, well i'm hot headed and he doesn't need to take it so literally.

i became resentful and critical over the years, and also after our son was born became increasingly OCD.

he is 8 yrs younger than me, we met while i was still married to someone else(thought that marriage had been over for a couple of years and my ex at the time was with someone else), we got pregnant by accident, and then my ex divorced me and present H and i got married a couple of weeks after son was born, i moved here to the states, which i was not happy about at the time, and we worked hard the first years - then in the 5th year i had a car accident with severe concussion and neck and back injury- which developed into post concussion syndrome and a movement disorder and i was basically disabled and out of it for 5 yrs. so he had a LOT to deal with - and i think the most crucial thing for him is that with the concussion issues there was no emotional connection whatsoever

it was the same with everyone in my life - as my MIL puts it - you were here physically but you just weren't here.

as i started to get better, during the 5th year, it was almost like he just couldn't take it and got confused - instead of becoming more and more delighted at my progress, he became more confused - his role had become so much of caretaker, that he couldn't switch.

i know that he got really overwhelmed and the ow probably signifies just ease and no worries

i have been super independent since he moved out - really showing him that i can handle everything on my own - i am almost back to normal now, - and it is a huge deal for everyone who knows me as we all expected that i wouldn't ever get better - i worked really hard to get here and have 'woken" up to find that he is gone.

as for what i do with my days - that's the sad part - i used to be a pretty well known artist, and couldn't work for those 5 yrs - totally lost my connection to my work(which was also our big connection) and i am still floundering terribly trying to figure out what to do now for work. how to get back into it again and restart.

apart from what is going on with H, that is my biggest hurdle and challenge - i think i'm physically able, but mentally i still haven't regained my drive to create . i was so incredibly driven before, that i could accomplish really difficult projects - now i have trouble just thinking about it - still get completely overwhelmed when there is more than one thing to do at a time

so in terms of H's list of complaints - well actually it's really really long - an dover the last months, he's pretty much bashed every last aspect of our 10 yrs together, even the good stuff - which has really depressed me terribly, not to mention grinding my slef esteem down into the ground.

i remind myself constantly that he has to do that to continue what he is doing - not to excuse him, but what i have found is that his strategy and behaviour is actually quite transparent - in terms of how hard he is working to convince himself that he is doing the right thing.

the sad thing - and what really confuses and almost paralyses me is that after 6 mos. he is still saying how we have a really deep emotional connection and how he is so conflicted

shoot - my post got way too long again
thanks for helping me out here
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/25/12 02:39 PM
cadet - i meant to ask - could you please give me some pointers on detachment? especially when there is a child involved and there has to be a lot of contact?

thanks
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/26/12 06:38 AM
hi everyone,
GAL progress today - had two girl friends over, one with her son, all three of us single moms w/kids i suppose, and we had dinner together and watched a bollywood movie - lots of good laughs.

son came back today, always a difficult day when transitioning, and so just have to be patient until it rolls over. i haven't been too patient myself today.

for myself - did some reading on detachment to get a better idea of what it really means to detach. and am working on acceptance and how to get my own life. this GAL thing - get a life - but this is the life i have, and i'm finding it very hard to step out of it.

i guess i have to find a new approach toward it, so i can understand what my new aims should be. i need to work on my co-dependency issues, as well as on my self esteem which is definitely stopping me from stepping up to the mark and getting some work going.

also lately the anger over this is starting to well up and i need to channel it correctly so that i am not constantly frustrated about little things. will try to meditate more from now on so that i can focus on getting more peace of mind in this situation. 6mos of obsessing about this day and night - has simply got to stop:)
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/26/12 03:11 PM
in a quandary

realized that the last three weeks when i was "allowing" him to be around here more helping and doing little things, he was more relaxed, acting more intimate toward me in the way he spoke and seeming to want to be here.

but now i think i'm very confused - i don't know if he was being nicer because he has a hidden agenda, or if being around us was having a genuine effect on him.

i did , from the beginning cut him off in the way that i wouldn't let him be at the house except the absolute minimum, and wouldn't let him do anything here at all unless it was absolutely unavoidable.

now i'm confused - which is the better way to go. part of me feels that the more i allow him here, the real message i'm giving him is that it's ok that he is doing what he's doing and that i accept it and he gets more comfortable

on the other hand, could it be he needs to see that he is needed here, and it makes him feel good to do things and feel needed in that way (that's definitely his way of showing his love. also i think that the fact that he's a cancer and really believes in home and family is something i should keep in mind

guess i should mention that i asked him to move out after he came back from the first trip to see her after he told me that he was leaving and had met someone else. he wanted to move out because he knew that he couldn't stay here and keep doing it (for himself)

after this back sliding on thursday, we've agreed that we will have some difficult moments though he said ridiculous things like "you and i have a deep connection that will always be there, and strong feelings for each other and that will never change!!

aargh!
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/26/12 08:53 PM
i'm hoping someone will respond to my posts - i'm sorry they are so long.
could really do with feedback
today - i am focusing on trying to detach and GAL , but find myself thinking constantly about him.

he leaves on thursday for 25 days - the longest trip away from us - first he goes to see his sis and meet the ow for a day or 2 and then he flies abroad for a work trip. we'll be talking to him on skype everyday though.

i know that it is my opportunity to be on my own , and focus on myself and the right things i have to do for myself, and to really let go - but i'm hating it.i can't decide if i should just go dark and not talk to him on the skype, or be there son and i with our happy smiling faces telling him about all the fun stuff we are doing here -

the stupid thing is that even though he is doing this( having an affair and moving out and not allowing us to even discuss the possibility of trying to work it out), he hasn't let go and neither have i, after 6 mos.

gosh i am whiny today - having trouble cutting those emotional strings..
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/27/12 05:10 AM
well - he stopped by this evening to spend a bit of time with our son and to help me look for some documents that i couldn't find.

i was casual friendly and relaxed - at one point i turned to speak to him ( i could feel him looking at me very intensely for many mins while my back was to him while i was cooking at the stove) and caught the look in his eyes- he is still so connected and feels so much but is so ADAMANT to fight it (he's told me that - " i have really strong feelings for you but i am going to fight them and wish they go away)

he's leaving on thursday and is going to spend upto 5 days with her, before he leaves the country - and the worst of it - his sister (whom i get along with great), who by the way did the exact same thing 2 years ago and left her spouse and is still having the affair, is meeting up with him and the OW for those five days.

H's parents are quite devastated that both their kids have done the same thing within 2 yrs of each other and it's difficult not to see that there is some family connection there. i think that his sis, needs ot support him in this, because otherwise she would have to face up to what she is doing and she's not ready to.

my MIL told me that just last june the three of them were talking one night and H told his sister that she needs to just stop her affair and go back to her spouse and work it out. then barely 2 months later he does the same thing.

the weird thing is that at the time he told her this, he and i were doing quite well, but he sort of snapped after that - i think it is MLC - he told me that he looked in the mirror one day and got really freaked about who he was and what he was doing - then came the motorbike followed by the affair, black bashing every aspect of our marriage to great exageration and then moving out.

i think there are commitment phobe issues too - he obviously can't commit to trying to work it out with me, but he's got us in totally the most painful limbo by not committing fully to leaving either. his line "if you push me right now, i'm leaving, but if you let me be,,,,,"

everytime i've tried to nudge slightly - asking when he will take the rest of his stuff or how we should tie up loose ends, he gets really pained and within a day i'm listening to the "i'm so conflicted " conversation with tears, including "i have to pursue this other thing right now"

i guess i'm the one who needs to just let go and detach , right?

on a positive note - i get to have my beautiful son with me full time for 25 days - even after 6 mos, i find it painful when he's at H's for a whole week, though i talk to him everyday and also keep him after school for at least a couple of afternoons.

tomorow i go to see a new counselor who is pro-marriage and i'm hoping like hell she's heard of michell and read her books,,, let's see how that pans out

thanks for reading

and btw - this is horribly frustrating - to keep writing and no feedback - i'm down on pg 7 and can't imagine that anyone even gets there to read! how long is this moderation for? or is it for a certain amount of posts

thanks
zig
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/27/12 09:41 PM
Zig I'm gonna say it again. You sound like an amazing woman and if you feel like crying go for it. I like that you were able to identify some of the causes. I also got resentful and angry. Don't beat yourself up can't change what you did but you can change from this day forward (stole this from 25)you will hear from her soon. keep poating even if yuou get no responses. People are reading just waiting for the right moment. I will post Sandis 37 rules. read them carefully. We are here for you

1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)

11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.

16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.

17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.

18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.

19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.

21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.

26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).

27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.

29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.

30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.

31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.

33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes
Posted By: horsewnoname Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/27/12 09:45 PM
Yeah somehow you have got to stay positive. Try mindfullness meditation - check out Jon Kabat-Zinn's book Whevever You Go There You Are. Corny title but it works.
Posted By: BFloat Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/27/12 10:47 PM
zig,

take a deep breath. i believe you are on moderation until you reach a certain number of posts. then they will start showing up in real time. in the mean time, check out other posts on the board and make comments there as well. this will allow other members to get to know you and look up your sitch.

sounds like you are on the right path. also the backslides are normal. just get back up and keep going.
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/28/12 02:45 PM
thank you rick

and thanks for the list - i have been reading other posts and am pleased that you posted them in a reply to me so that it is easier for me to find and reread.

so yesterday i saw a marriage counselor and i really liked her - ALOT and she is pro marriage and solution oriented, which i am very pleased about.

i came out of there with a little bounce in my walk - and a smile on my face. for so many years i've been told how messed up i am emotionally - and she really let me know that apart from a little depression, which is understandable in this sich, she couldn't find a "diagnosis" for me - in other words, you are waaay more sane than you realize!

i really needed that confirmation. both my first husband and my present one, i felt, always hid behind my problems and always said that it was my problems that caused all the [censored] in the relationship and we never ever dealt with theirs or even mentioned them.

now its funny almost , in this situation - the one who's handling it amazingly well is me, and H is quite the mess

oh well..

thank you for your encouragement.

btw - the list of things that i messed up and completely admit to, is very long and i'm still realizing more stuff and understanding what H had to deal with. at the same time, i'm starting to see more and more, the things that i don't want and were really hard for me to deal with

thanks for your support - it means a lot to me
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/28/12 02:52 PM
hi barelyfloating -

yippee i think i just got off moderation. when i wrote my last post, it posted immediately!!

thank-you - i am taking so many deep breathes all through the day that sometimes i wonder that i don't outright hyperventilate!!

thanks for reassuring me about the backslides - i have barely made any but the one last thursday made me really nervous.

one thing i have to work on is not having "emotional" conversations with him - he always pulls me into them and i am getting better at remaining more detached. i also have to work on my anger issues, that are arising a bit now - recent discoveries and what is coming up in the following week are a lot for me to handle and wrap my mind around.

the most difficult part of this situation has been that he uses the fact that we have a son, and constant contact as a way to constantly keep the sich chaotic and complicated.

of course, i realize that i am allowing that on a certain level to and i am going to start focusing on not doing that any more

thanks
zig
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/28/12 03:16 PM
so to continue this saga

H is leaving on a work trip this thursday. i've known about it for 2 months and also discovered right after it was planned that instead of flying straight abroad he had planned to meet his sister in another town in the same state that OW lives in.

so he's flying there and staying in the hotel with his sis, and ow is coming there to join him for 5 days and seeing him off when he leaves.

he was here a couple of days ago and got on my computer and left his mail open there - and later when i went to use my computer there was his mail open and i saw a message from his sis and i went and looked at it -

he had told his mom that ow was coming there to join him for just one day and he was really worried about telling me (until last week he had no idea that i knew, and he wanted me to know because he wanted to be able to call and skype our son before he flew abroad) because he thought i would be really angry, but mostly because 3 months ago i told him that i didn't want to know ANYTHING about the affair and he needed to plan his visits with ow during the week i had our son, so i didn't need to know about it.

well i found out that ow is there the whole five days with them and H and ow are even going to babysit sister's gf's little girl while they are at work.

so the story about his sister: she was married to a woman and during the second year had an affair with another woman and she and her wife split up and divorced. sis is still with the ow , who is married to a man, where they both have an open relationship but stay together because they have 6 yr old little girl. sis and ow work for the same company and travel together for the shows.

so H and his sis are now in cahoots about what they are both doing in their lives and since i found out 2 days ago, i am really struggling with the feelings of betrayal from my sister in law.

when she was here at x'mas we talked alot - and i thought she left understanding more of what the situation was. she adores our son, and they have an extremely close and wonderful relationship, and now here i am with this info, and all i can think is - why is she risking her relationship with our son, because stuff like this always comes out and how does she think it will affect all of us?

what i realize now, is that both H and his sister just want to have fun - and anything that stands in the way of them having fun is just rejected and seen by them as a huge emotional threat. they are so busy having fun right now, that neither of them can stop to think of the consequences of this kind of thing.

i am SO TEMPTED to call her up and say that i know about this and what on earth does she think she's doing?

my mil and i are extremely close, and contrary to the "rules" above, she and i have talked everyday and she knows every detail of what is going on - except this last piece of info. she knows that they both are lying to her about this trip - and she is working almost as hard as i am to find the right things for me to do in order to save this marriage - but how can i tell her this. both she and H's dad are utterly pained by what both their kids have done within 2 years of each other and i think that finding out that now they are all 4 of them and the little girl going to be hanging out for 5 days...


any advice on what i should do here? i don't get to see the therapist until the 7th and there wasn't time to tell her or ask her about this yesterday at the first appointment.

i'm trying to just let it go - but this sich is just getting too much

what should i do - just keep quiet and leave the in-laws out of this? or allow H and sis to skype our son and lie in his face everyday for 5 days. (last trip H behaved on skype in the most bizarre ways so that son was very upset after every session).

thanks ofr any advice here
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/28/12 03:19 PM
ps

i think the reason i am SO upset about this info even though i've known for 2 months they are meeting up is the idea that H and ow are going to babysit that kid, like they are all one new happy family.

sorry for venting for so long
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/28/12 04:45 PM
Venting is good and this is the place to do it. Get that GAL going..
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/28/12 07:19 PM
thanks grmpymnky - i am working on that GAL.
in the hours since i vented - decided not to say anything, not to push anything , just to stay still, and LET IT GO!

there's no point in reacting to everything he does, because the only one it keeps hurting is me.

my GAL today - get my own things going and just not care about what he's doing and who he's doing it with.

as for sis-in-law - whatever happens will that will happen, i'm not going to call her or force the issue here

anyone have any advice on wht else i can do?

thanks
zig
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/28/12 07:24 PM
Zig what are things you have always wanted to do/try but didn't because life kept you busy?

get a hobby
go to church
go to the movies
exercise
go to an IC
ride a bike
walk
tennis
video games
volunteer at a food pantry/animal shelter/school
etc......get the idea

Anything that will keep your brain from thinking about your sitch.
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/28/12 07:36 PM
hi rick

well - what i should do is focus completely on getting myself working and earning my own money - i think that would make me feel really good

right now i don't feel as if i could take of, because of my son - i need to be here for him.

i have been doing quite a few things - having friends over for parties, started yoga classes twice a week, reconnecting with my friends and family after five years of being out of it with the post concussion syndrome.

i have very little money right now, so can't take off on trips even though i'd like to get away, so that will have to wait.

i know all of the above sound a bit pathetic, but this is from someone who could barely walk across the room or go out a year and half ago, so they are giant steps for me.

right now - getting the work going is my top priority and i am focusing on that. every time i think of the sich i say "detach" three time - sort of like clicking my heels together...:)
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/29/12 12:50 AM
ooh, i hurt right now - it's so difficult to get away fro these non stop circling thoughts.

what have some of you others done to stop obsessing about the sitch constantly?

this detaching is so difficult.

why is it that our minds, even though we KNOW that this in not good for us right now and we are getting NOTHING positive from this, still continue to want it?

why don't we just GET IT and move on with our lives - i don't mean give up but just move forward. why do we allow it to paralyze us the way it does?

i think it's our egos - now that we "woke up" and are getting it about what we need to do to fix things and make them great, we simply can't bear it that the spouse is not in on it with us right away!!

someone sent me this - it was about acceptance and what it really means to accept - it was long, but the first line read:

if i had to define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is.

i'm really working on that - for the few brief periods when i allow myself to fully accept what is, i feel some peace - and i imagine that when i truly get to that point, it will be really peaceful..
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/29/12 01:14 AM
Zig I am still new at this but I can tell you it takes some time. It depends on how long u have been together and many other factors. When I joined here I was a mess. Could not even do my job. Thought about all of the ifs and should haves and u know what I mean. But I tell u things start to look brighter after a while. Yes I have my bad days/weeks but they are less painful. How are you sleeping and eating? For me thinking about the future stinks. So I have to watch it. Think about what makes u sad and challenge that. Keep posting u are doing good
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/29/12 04:21 AM
thanks so much for the kind support rick - you are being a wonderful support.

eating - same as before, taking a bit more care

sleeping - compared to a couple of years ago - great - i have a sleep disorder, and finally found the correct treatment
for the first 4 mos of this sitch - my sleep was really bad - would wake up a lot during the night , i knew because of the sitch and was unable to fall asleep again, but finally stopped doing that .

i still feel that i take it to bed with me and dream about it all night, but lately i think the feeling is much less intense - i don't wake up anymore feeling like i spent the whole night going over and over it in my mind

what you describe - about the ifs and should haves- yes i still do that, and i'm still working on imagining my future life without him - though i will admit it's not quite as painful as it used to be.

one thing that has finally got through to me after 6 mos is that the emotional rises that happen DO PASS, if one can just hold onto oneself - and that is helping me more and more everyday - to know that when i start feeling really bad and despondent, that in a few hours it will pass and i will be able to focus on something again.

i don't focus very well on other stuff yet, but am working hard at it
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/29/12 01:20 PM
Zig - there are a few messages for you in red font inside of the quotation box below....

Originally Posted By: zig
ooh, i hurt right now - it's so difficult to get away fro these non stop circling thoughts.

what have some of you others done to stop obsessing about the sitch constantly?

The obsessing is what really makes dealing with the sitch the most difficult. This is why GAL is so critical. You've got to start doing things that help take your mind off things and the more physically exhausting they are, the better you will sleep in the night. Exercise, bike riding, jogging, whatever you enjoy, do more of it!

this detaching is so difficult.

why is it that our minds, even though we KNOW that this in not good for us right now and we are getting NOTHING positive from this, still continue to want it?

Because part of you has been ripped from your being. It is painful, but it is, what it is. The more you can detach emotionally from your S, the more protection you give your heart.

why don't we just GET IT and move on with our lives - i don't mean give up but just move forward. why do we allow it to paralyze us the way it does?

It is called FEAR! Acknowledge it! Embrace it! Move forward!

i think it's our egos - now that we "woke up" and are getting it about what we need to do to fix things and make them great, we simply can't bear it that the spouse is not in on it with us right away!!

It is ok to fix things, but the "things" have to be what you can control. Things within YOU, not your S, not your M, within YOU! Keep that as your focus right now.

someone sent me this - it was about acceptance and what it really means to accept - it was long, but the first line read:

if i had to define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is.

Make this ^^^ your motto! Live it! Breathe it!

i'm really working on that - for the few brief periods when i allow myself to fully accept what is, i feel some peace - and i imagine that when i truly get to that point, it will be really peaceful..


Hang in there. Keep your focus on you! Things will get better!
Posted By: labug Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/29/12 02:01 PM
Zig, this is a tough go. It takes time to detach and then just when you think you've done it, wham.

Don't beat yourself up about it, feel what you feel just keep moving forward.
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/29/12 02:55 PM
thanks 2thepoint - for taking the time to write to me.

yes its the FEAR. big fears.

and in my case, even more so - i became really fearful these last few years after the 2 car accidents - and it is one of the biggest reasons why he left - my fear held me back on every level, and i also held him and my son back. it got to the point where leaving the house became a real challenge for me, because everything triggered off the muscle spasms and tremors.

i think he got exhaustedtrying to fight my fears. we had a real [censored] deal - couldn't find a doctor who could really help me, but the biggest factor i think in dealing with the situation was that he absolutely and adamantly refused to go to counseling to help him deal with the horror of what we were going through

after the first few months after the first acccident when i realized that i wasn't getting better i started asking him to please, please go talk to someone to help him cope with how this affected him - he just refused saying"you're the one who's messed up, you're the one disabled, you're the one who needs help, i'm fine"

but he wasn't fine - it affected our lives deeply - he had to take over, take so much care of me, drop his stuff to take care of me and our son - there were times when i was so helpless - it affected our sex life terribly - sex would be great but would end with me in full body spasms that were horrible and him trying to hold me down on the bed because my body was flopping all around - sometimes for up to an hour.

i kept thinking - my god, what is this doing to him - he couldn't ask for sex because he knew what i would go through, so it became always that i had to initiate it - he told me later after the breakup when we were really talking alot, that he tried to get through it as quickly as possible so the spasms would be less.

i haven't thought about this for many months now, and i find myself crying as i write this. the odds were really against us, and were exacerbated by the fact that he wouldn't go talk to a person who was skilled in helping him cope with this terribly difficult situation.

the concussion issues were huge - i was 200% overwhelmed 24 hours a day - in the weeks after the accident i couldn't remember how to do simple tasks like load the washing machine etc. so i was in a really high state of anxiety constantly. sadly he took everything personally, and later he wouldn't even try to step back and help me by staying calm , which was all i needed, but would get really angry and make things terrible. my therapist helped me alot to understand how my brain was working (fight or flight) but it took a couple of years for me to really be able to not get so overwhelmed

finally almost 2 years ago, i finally found the right treatments that really started making a difference - and over the following 8 mos really began to improve, but it seemed as if it was too late for him - he couldn't see the changes - and they were subtle and by that point it had become a complete nightmare for him.

he was so angry and fought over everything and last summer, before he left there were numerous occasions where i would just be standing there in the middle of a 10 day migraine, while he was pissing mad and all i would say is - "i don't even know what we are fighting about"

for him coming home was to find me lying on the couch in the throes of a migraine, or not knowing what he was coming home to - me having a "good day" or a terrible one.

in my own defense i could say that i tried really hard and pushed myself constantly, never giving in to not trying to find the right solution.

the trial for the first accident finally came in dec '10, and we lost - not one cent - and he said that it was the last straw for him - for 4 yrs the medical bills were piling up and he was completely overwhelmed - hoping that the money from winning the case would at least get that pressure off of hi,m.

i was totally non-participating in thefinancial and money part which put all the pressure on him through our whole marriage and i foudn out after he moved out that he had simply stopped opening the bills for almost 2 yrs

even though since last year i have been getting better and better he just couldn't see it or acknowledge it, and now for the last 6 mos. he says - look how great you are doing - you are doing so well because i left so i was right in leaving.

i point out to him calmly that he woke me up, yes, but that i had been getting better all along,in a subtle way. sadly for me when i finally woke up after the effects of the post-concussion syndrome, it was to find out that he was gone.

i know when he looks at me now, he is very confused, where is the hunched up spasming, jerking person who could sometimes not walk across the room - we had both given up on me finding the right treatment and getting better.

who is this smiling happy person, who is dancing all the time and going for walks and having parties (which he has come to), and not arguing and most of all - staying utterly calm, no matter how much he tries to push my buttons?

well 2thepoint - i guess your comments triggered off a rush of emotions and memories for me - i'm sorry this is so long.

i am going to focus on getting off my pity pot here, and follow your advice - every bit of it - this is the most challenging time of my life, ever and i've had some seriously rough spots int he past. not only do i have to figure out life on my own in this sitch with H, but i have to figure out how to live again after 5 yrs on not really being here (after i "woke up" i went through a period of being utterly horrified at how much time i had lost - so these fears - yes they are very much there, and very overwhelming
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/29/12 02:56 PM
oh gosh - only after i submitted the post did i realize that it was insanely long. sorry about that - hope you have the time to read it smile
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/29/12 02:59 PM
you are right labug - about a month ago i was doing quite well, but the events of the last 3 weeks just put me in a state of confusion and i'm trying to get grounded again.

i'm so confused about what is the best thing to do - when i get overwhelmed, my short term memory issues kick in, and now i can't even remember what i was doing a month ago which made things seem as if they were getting better between us - i keep trying to remember and i can't - maybe i should start journaling again, so if i can't remember, i can look it up.

i will keep trying to move forward
thanks
zig
Posted By: labug Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/29/12 03:17 PM
Keep the focus on yourself. Keep doing things to make you better.

Let H worry about H. You can't help him, he can only do that himself, when and if he decides. He has his own path to walk.

When you want to "do" something ask yourself, "Is this getting my closer to my goals or am I doing this for H?"

Be the person you want to be whether of not H is there. Act as if he will not be there.
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/29/12 03:34 PM
Be the person you want to be whether of not H is there. Act as if he will not be there.


act AS IF he will not be there

that is the crux of the matter isn't it? i DO do that in everyday life - but not in my mind - where it is the most important.
thank you again -

all the changes i made - i am sure they just came from a place within myself which realized that i simply couldn't be the way i was before, and i know that i didn't do them for him.

but this final change - that i am struggling so much with - of just letting go - it's like the whole of me is screaming no , no, even though i realize that letting go is my only chance of making things better for myself AND possibly getting him to reconsider
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/29/12 03:57 PM
just had a conversation with H that i have been dreading and circling in my mind for 2 days.

it went better than i thought - i stayed cheerful and casual, and managed to be the first to get off the phone.

he is leaving day after tomorrow, and i am trying to do it so that i don't see him and have minimal contact, but not give him the impression that i'm doing that.

i knew that he would want to come over to the house tomorrow to drop son's stuff off, so i casually told him that i was busy and probably wouldn't be here but to go ahead and come on in and put his food in the fridge.

i should be home working - i work from the house - but am going to make a point to leave, even if i just have to drive around the block while he's here. heck he's going to see ow tomorrow for 5 days before he leaves on his work trip!!

MIL says that it would be great if he didn't see me before he left - would drive him crazy
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/29/12 04:05 PM
about our son - i'm so concerned

he called to tell me that he made the appointment for april 10th with the "shrink" he is very disdainful about therapists and looks down on me for needing one. he is only going , i think because i forced the issue - the therapist specializes in children, and we are going to go to learn how to co parent in this situation.

i told him that if he didn't make the appointment and show that he was willing to go, then i was going to do it on my own and he couldn't question my decisions.

i'm not sure what his motives are in agreeing - and i suppose it doesn't really matter - it will remain to be seen how he actually acts and what he says in there that will let me know .

until now he keeps saying that my own fears are what are causing me to think that our son may possibly be affected by this sitch. i've firmly told him to stop doing that several times - i know he says that because he is not willing to face the consequences of what he is doing.

his own experience when he was young and his father moved out, are influencing his attitude now. he KNOWS how he felt then - he was so upset that for the whole time his father moved out he absolutely refused to go to his father's apartment and barely spoke to him.

when he moved out from our house - those fears came up big time, and when it was time to tell our son and for our son to go there the first time, he fell apart, and i had to help them through it. i did it for our son - because H was such a mess.

after that he simply shut down and refuses to acknowledge that this could be affecting our child.

S10 emotionally regressed after the separation, stopped calling us mom and dad and only by our first names. when he comes home from his week at his dad's, he wants me to hold him in my arms like i did when he was three - 6 mos later he still needs it - several times a day and this week, the frequency has increased, because his dad is going to be gone and he knows something is up and because just like me he is recovering from the events of 2 weeks ago when H came back and stayed here while we were all sick, and everything seemed so okay.

going to the therapist for me is about finding out how tolook for signs that S10 is doing the best he could be - how to get him to open up about his feelings - he absolutely refuses to acknowledge the situation - even an indirect reference to our living in 2 houses will upset him so much that he crashes and it takes him a long while to come out of it.

after 6 mos, the child is still refusing to take so much as one toy to his dad's house, still won't have a playdate there, and doesn't want his friends to know dad lives in another house (only one friend knows and that's because we car pool with them and he has to get picked up there!) and that friend entered H's house for the first time yesterday.

and you're telling me the kid is okay?

my in-laws are SO concerned, that they are going to see a therapist to find out what is the best way to support and help our son.

so on this issue i became adamant last week and simply wouldn't give in until he made the appointment. i think the tipping scale for him was when S10 said last friday that he wouldn't go stay a couple of extra nights at dad's house even if he was leaving on a trip for a month. H was really hurt i think.

on the other hand S changed his mind and is doing that this week, but doesn't seem to be so happy.

i'm learning to be "slightly negligent" and not become obsessed with how this will affect our child - it is part of the full acceptance thing - accept that one doesn't have a choice about how much time one can spend with our child, that one is forced to accept the separation, not only from the spouse but also from the child - accept that one's child is hurting bad and one can only hug and cuddle and offer nothing but love - no reassurances no solution. accept that even though the child is standing there at your front door saying no, i don't want to go, put a smile on my face and force him to put on his jacket and shoes and make him leave, pretending that you are really busy and are going out and they need to get going

alot of accepts - it's okay
Posted By: nhmom Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/29/12 04:14 PM
Z - I'm sorry about how much your son has been affected by all of this. It is one thing for us to hurt, but to see our children in pain is so heartbreaking.

You are doing the right thing about going to the C. Hopefully, your H will be able to see how much his selfish actions are affecting your S.

Keep being there for your S and try to make good memories together at home. Try to find things that make him laugh. You are doing all you can for your S. As much as it hurts to watch him suffer, it is your H's responsibility for the relationship between them. Your H needs to hear about the affects of separation or divorce on children. And because it will be coming from the C and not you, he "may" listen.
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/29/12 05:36 PM
thanks nhmom for your kind calming words.

i realized a while ago that the responsibility for their relationship lies with H and our son. i read "the dance of anger" in the beginning of this separation and through what i learned from that wonderful book, i realized that i had "taken on" the responsibility of their relationship - probably something i learned from the way my mother did the same.

so i stepped back and have consistently and gently pointed out to him that certain things are between them. right from the first day, i did a 180 and never questioned what he did with S and how and where, and have consistently done that. i think it has got through to him that i won't interfere and that he has to figure those things out on his own.

i hope too that the C will be able to point out the effects of this - the real damage in a gentle non-confrontational way to him so that his mind can think about it without feeling threatened or pressured. i know that he knows deep down what it means, and just last week he admitted that just like me he believes it would be better for S if we stay and work it out together but he simply can't do it right now

he is fixated on several ideas - one of them is that we fought so much that it was really bad for S and soS is better off because since we split, we get along much much better - so why would we want to risk getting back together and fall back into the old ways.

S and i are going to have a good time - i'm going to teach him to bake - one of my fortes, and just focus on myself and him and laughing ALOT and doing fund stuff for this month.

thanks
zig
Posted By: BFloat Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/29/12 07:41 PM
(((( zig ))))

sounds like you are doing the best you can. And I totally agree w/ getting
S counselling since he's showing signs that he's having difficulty coping.

It's good that H has agreed to go. The difficult part now will be stepping back and not pushing the matter furthur. Whether H sees the light or not, it's not up to you to decide or "teach" him that lesson. He will have to come to realize these things on his own in order for them to have any true value.

It must be so hard to have S cry when he doesn't want to go to H's. And focusing on how much you love him is a great thing.

You do your work. Let H do his. Do you and your H live in the same area? Just wondering about the custody arrangements.

Hang in there.
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/29/12 11:19 PM
hi barely - thanks for your input and especially the hugs - or at least i'm assuming that those curved marks on either side of zig are hugs:)

just clarifying - we aren't taking S to counseling -he and i are going to talk to a therapist who specializes in kids. and also to learn how to co-parent in this situation.

one of our biggest challenges during our marriage is that we never could get through to the end of a conversation about anything to do with S - to put it in a nut shell, he did his thing and i did mine -

actually what really happened was that whenever i would ask him how we should do something for eg., potty train, discipline etc, he would just stick with "i don't know" wouldn't agree to any of my suggestions or consider them, but just resist whatever i was saying. then i would give up, frustrated as hell. later it would come down to it and the situation w/ S would demand a decision and i would go ahead and do whatever i could - usually advice from parenting books.

then he would turn around and say - see you always control everything, so i'm not going to participate. i realize now during this separation that it was a very passive aggressive way for him to not participate AND to then put the blame on me by saying i was controlling.

over these months during our separation, i have managed to point these things out to him and i think the message has got through on some level, because i have seen him make the effort - first his initial reaction is to be aggressive and start blaming me, but when i have stayed patient and pointed out to him that that's not the point , how i am, but the real issue is something about our child, in the last month or so i've noticed that several times when the conversation had spiralled down to the old way and i set a boundary, he actually made the effort to talk through it until we reached some resolution that actually made us both feel good.

the few times that has happened i've made it a point to let him know how much i appreciate the effort and really let him know that i was listening to his opinion and wanted it very badly to begin with. i hated making all the decisions before about our S

he deliberately chose a house that is only 8 blocks from us - so it's very close and we have it set up that S is there for one week and here for one week at a time. when S is at H's house,i still pick him up from school once or twice a week so that i can have some time with him, and if H has work stuff in the evenings i've asked that i can get S before he leaves him at a friends. H teaches at a univ. so he often has seminars and meetings late into the evening

we have been very generous with sharing S - we raised him with attachment parenting methods and both feel terribly the loss of less time with him. H is so conscious of that - how much harder this is for me without S, that i will say he bends over backwards to let me have him here.


in spite of what the situation is and what he is doing - he is one hell of a father - and even though he has reneged on some of his parenting role through the years, i know that he is devoted to S. On the other hand because of this MLC behavior, he simply isn't able to SEE what this is doing to S - though i suspect he is beginning to - 4 mos. ago the mere hint of a mention that S might be affected would provoke 3 days of yelling and screaming and blaming - now he actually discusses it calmly with me and has even admitted that he doesn't know what to do

from the beginning of this separation one of my main thoughts was that if we could work towards being in a really good place with being able to communicate about S, it would make a massive difference to how he sees our situation

unfortunately - there are commitment phobe problems at work here too - he wants everything in his life to be separated - completely - no one at work should know he's left me, only certain friends can know, not others - he's said i want my life with ow to be completely separate from my life with you and S (wonder how long till she sees the problem in that - easy now because she's in another state to hide the real issues)

so it goes on and on - i wish i had the ability to condense this situation like everyone else does - i so envy people who can say so much in a small paragraph

sorry my response is so long and thank you for you for your advice
Posted By: labug Re: am i on the right track??? - 02/29/12 11:27 PM
Quote:
actually what really happened was that whenever i would ask him how we should do something for eg., potty train, discipline etc, he would just stick with "i don't know" wouldn't agree to any of my suggestions or consider them, but just resist whatever i was saying. then i would give up, frustrated as hell. later it would come down to it and the situation w/ S would demand a decision and i would go ahead and do whatever i could - usually advice from parenting books.

then he would turn around and say - see you always control everything, so i'm not going to participate. i realize now during this separation that it was a very passive aggressive way for him to not participate AND to then put the blame on me by saying i was controlling.


Boy-howdy does this sound familiar! We've been married for 33 years and I got this speech about about control maybe 5 times and then one day he had enough of the control issue and left.

It's a difficult personality to live with.

Have you considered taking your son to counseling? My sons are both grown and when H left I asked both of them if they wanted to talk to someone(counselor), they both said yes and they did.
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 12:02 AM
Mach needs to post the introvert/extrovert thing in here. We were the same. The I dunno made me well u know...........
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 12:37 AM
we're not considering that yet - i want us to talk to the counsellor and describe his behavior first and see whether there are things we can do to draw him out, first before taking S in.

also want to get a feel first for what the counselor is like and where she stands on the issue of the effect of separations and divorce on children.

one thing i am determined to do right now, is NOT make any moves without the full co-operation of H. i think for him going to a therapist indicates a great weakness on his part - he sees it as a huge threat - that he is above needing help and can figure out his own stuff.

first i have to see what H will be like in the counselling - will he be honest and open and show his pain and guilt or will he put on his persona and act super cool and with it and sit back and be co-operative, but then when he leaves go back to what he always does, which is blame me.

we went to counseling together 2 separate times, for just 2 or 3 sessions while we were together - and i was dumb founded at the way he was - it was as if a different person was sitting there - the one he wanted to show the world, not the real person and the real problems we had.

during the separation he has adopted this different persona _except when he is with me and we are having one of those "emotional" conversations, and his whole family can see it and all our friends and acquaintances - and they ask me still - what's up with him why is he acting like that - so we'll see...
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 12:44 AM
sorry rick - totally don't get what you are referring to.

did you mean that mach and you did the "i don't know" thing

during one of our conversations during the last couple of months H finally said that whenever he said "i don't know" he actually meant NO. and that from now on when he said i don't know i was to take it as a no.


quite a revelation! no wonder i felt like i was losing it and was over anxious all the time

interestingly, come to think of it, since that conversation i can't say i've heard him say i don't know again.

in fact for how indecisive he was for the 10 yrs we were together, he seems quite decisive now about staying with ow and not even considering giving us a shot.

in fact i don't quite ever remember him being so firm about an issue for a long long time

there is the other side of the coin - i have a very strong personality with a big mouth and he is much softer and i think i realize now that i simply overwhelmed him with my strong opinions.

my 180 with that realization has been to now first ask him how he'd like to do something and only offer my suggestions if he asks me.

EXCEPT for the issue about going to co-parenting counseling - i was pretty vociferous about that after i read in DR that children take first priority over everything
Posted By: labug Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 12:45 AM
wow, we could have married brothers.

At least yours is going to a counselor.
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 01:00 AM
i have a question - how many of you are in the situation that even though your spouse is having an affair with someone else, has moved out, will not even begin to consider even talking about the possibility of trying again, but has not been able to let go emotionally?

it is clear to me and H has admitted it also that he can't let go - he can't bear the idea of me being with someone else or moving on. he is even more conflicted than he was 6 mos ago but absolutely won't make any moves - and the attraction between us is almost painful - i feel him wanting me way more than he did in the last 10 yrs

its almost like he's denying the possibility of me to himself

that is why i am such a mess - for 6 mos, i have fully expected him to be on his way so completely and have been constantly surprised that he keeps coming to me for emotional support - i let him in the first couple of months and when i realized that it wasn't working, i stopped. but he still does come periodically to let me know how conflicted he is, but won't give me even the slightest indication that he wants to try

he says really stupid things like - wait till everyone finds out you're single , the guys are going to be falling over each other to get to you. he compliments me all the time about how great i look etc and once in a while admits that it is really painful to be around me because he wants me so bad (sexually). he is really pained when i imply in any way that i have a life of my own - that i'm going out, or that i'm going to be busy etc - i can see him really trying to control the urge = he can't resist though and always tries to find out with who and where, and i just casually and happily say oh just with some friends

on the other hand he will do stupid things like come to a party at our house and then i'll find him in the back yard calling ow.

it's like every time he is tempted to enjoy being around me, he calls ow almost as if to remind himself that that is what he is doing. he has told me in so many words that he doesn't want to hang out with me because he doesn't want to find out if we will have a good time together

this is the craziest scenario i have ever encountered in a separation

so what do you guys and gals make of this - is this usual in this kind of situation or just outright bizarre and off the wall?
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 01:05 AM
well i have no expectations that it will be worth it - there is no indication that he is going to cooperate fully and really understand what is going on with S, because until now he hasn't wanted to face it.

but i am going to see this as one of those baby steps as michelle says - actually for us just the agreeing to do it could be viewed as a giant step.so i will try to be as positive about it as i can - there is definitely a twinge of disillusionment and disappointment within me about this whole situation

so you had the same with your H? i'm so sorry
Posted By: BklynMom Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 03:11 AM
"then he would turn around and say - see you always control everything, so i'm not going to participate. i realize now during this separation that it was a very passive aggressive way for him to not participate AND to then put the blame on me by saying i was controlling."

Sounds familiar. You are not alone. Glad you are here
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 01:15 PM
thanks Bklynmom .
i'm glad to have found this place too:)
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 01:19 PM
my big ACT AS IF detached for today

he's stopping by with stuff to drop off before he leaves for his trip. i am not going to be here - he wouldn't tell me what time so i am just going to be gone all morning so he doesn't get to see me and say bye.

that should count as a 180 also because i am always here

shite day today - i know he's going to be with ow by this evening - wish i just didn't know...
Posted By: labug Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 01:44 PM
Detaching and no contact are to give you emotional space.

Quote:
sorry rick - totally don't get what you are referring to.
I think rick means he was an "I dunno" guy and that got him here. I have shared with him that he seems much like my H.(they even have the same name)

Now a request, to really get to know your sitch, I find it helpful to have the particulars in your signature. If you go to My Stuff at the top of this page and then to Edit Profileyou can add whatever you want, just remember to save it.

Then people with short memories can stay caught up without going back thru the pages of your thread.

Have a good day.
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 02:45 PM
"Detaching and no contact are to give you emotional space"

yes - i don't know how to really do this - but you're right i need to not see him in order to detach some more. and seeing him today is just going to make me feel bad - i have to do this for myself even though every part of me is screaming - he's going away for so long, i want to say good bye

i know i'm not detached when i write the following but it really really [censored] that she gets to see him off and say bye - or she possibly gets on that plane with him - he's going to new zealand for 2 weeks

aah the quiet acceptance of what is - may i reach enlightenment today (grin!)

btw - thanks for the explanation about what rick wrote - i need to learn more about where the i don't know comes from, how to work with it - because i know its still there with in him and i need to learn to work with it - in the past i've always been impatient and resentful about it

thanks labug - hope you're having a wonderful day:)
Posted By: Cadet Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 03:43 PM
Originally Posted By: zig
cadet - i meant to ask - could you please give me some pointers on detachment? especially when there is a child involved and there has to be a lot of contact?

thanks

Zig

Sorry to take so long to get back to you, if this is too late I understand, but here is a link on going dark


I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956

also try googling
lance armstrong detachment

That should give you some help on those items.
Detachment does not come all at once and can be thought of as an onion with all sorts of layers to it.
Some might take years to achieve.

I would try to keep your interactions with him as businesslike as possible.
Yes it is hard to do, but also learn about mirroring him.
Certainly let him control the contact.
Try to speak to him mostly through actions and not words.
Although I understand with kids more words will be required.

OK glad you are off moderation.
Hope this helps.
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 03:45 PM
Hi Zig found the post I was referring to. Mach1 Posted this to me. I am an extrovert my W is an introvert. Whenever I asked her a question she would at times give me a blank stare and no answer. That would drive me crazy. So here it is.

Ahhh....


Since we have been talking about communication styles, and triggers for you that leave you in a reactive state ( and not very good at it BTW )

I wanna throw something out to you...Cap'n Therapissed....

My x was an extrovert, very outgoing ( Italian, you know what I mean ). Over the years, I had patterned myself to dealing with myself in terms of communicating with her. I am somewhat an introvert . So the only way I really ever expressed myself, or interpreted myself in the relationship, was what I knew.

I dealt with her like she was an introvert, because that is the way I communicated. I didn't understand the difference in the two. Hell, maybe I would go as far as saying that I didn't know there was a different way.

When we would talk, HER answers were right there. I missed a LOT of them though, because I expected her to communicate with me on my terms. That led to a LOT of unfulfilled conversations from me. It led to frustrations because it was not the way I communicated. My frustration would lead to anger, much the same way you have described.

My partner now, is an introvert. And what I learned (the hard way ) , was the difference between the two communications styles. It wasn't until I met her, that it even occurred to me.

I would ask a question on my time, and expect an answer on my time.

What I learned was, that with communication with an introvert. (especially if you are an extrovert). We can ask questions on our time, although the answers come on their time. Sometimes I wait for days for an answer.

What I was doing with her was....I was asking these questions, and she would feel "pushed" for an answer, because she wasn't ready. And in time, she would feel over run, because the questions would stack up in her brain. One after another, before she could answer the first one....

This also led to some very frustrating times, until I learned to ask one thing...then wait for the answer. I pour a tall glass of STFU, until her answers come to her.

What this did, was allow me to step back, and relieve a lot of frustration on my end, because I was eliminating my expectations.

I removed MY triggers for frustration turning towards anger at her....by simply recognizing and removing those expectations.



Just something to think about.....



I saw that in your post this morning...
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 05:59 PM
hi cadet
thanks for all that info - i went and read the link, and learned from it - it made me look back at my sitch and see more clearly what worked and what hasn't

in my case it seems to be that going too dark sends the wrong message - that is what i did in our relationship - totally withdrew when things got too much, and he sees my withdrawal now as more of the same.

what i've learned during these last 6 mos. as i start to really "see" how the dynamics between his family members really work - is that when i am happy, open, kind and generous is when he is the most comfortable and the most relaxed around me - that shows him that i am FULLY accepting the situation and he is more relaxed

what i've really noticed is that when i withdraw and imply that i am cutting him off, he is very pained - and because i know him so well i know he takes it as - well i will just have to accept that she is leaving me emotionally, because i can't do anything about it 9a really defeatist attitude imo but that is how he functions!

that feeling of being pained reminds him i think acutely of how pained he was during the marriage.

so tell me if i'm getting this all backwards - but it seems to me that if i was to really go dark, then it would be "more of the same" - but if i am really HERE accepting everything and still smiling then i am doing a total 180, because that was definitely NOT ME before - i was really critical and when he pushed my buttons too much i would shut down
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 06:02 PM
thank you so much for this rick - oh gosh , just like a host of other things if only i had read this years ago....

i really needed to see this - it's bang on the mark of how i reacted - i am definitely the extrovert and he is ultra introvert

my downfall ALWAYS in everything has always been my impatience - terribly impatient and as i look back at our relationship i think it was probably the most major factor that led us to this.

and now i know that it is the biggest factor at play during this sitch - to step back on all levels and just be patient and let things play out

this sitch was given to me now, to finally learn patience and acceptance and to force me to let go of the control - that insidious need which gives us the false impression that life is good
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 06:14 PM
well so much for my gal today and being totally detached.

i did leave the house at 9 and stayed away, but one of my errands was grocery shopping and i decided to stop by the house for 5 mins to put the food in the fridge because it's really warm today - well H dropped by right then

i guess it was meant to be - i had been listening to pema chodron's 'fear to fearlessness' talk in the car while driving and found myself thinking that in terms of what i had planned to do, i was actually trying to manipulate the situation - and that i simply needed to stop doing that - she was talking about being open to EVERY experience and sitting with the quality of that experience and the emotions it brought up

so i just went with the situation (i could have run out and missed him, but it seemed pointless at that moment) and focused onjust being friendly and pleasant and relaxed.

i went out on the back porch and he just came and joined me and its a gorgeous day and we sat there in the sun and he didn't seem to be in a hurry to leave - we had a great relaxed conversation mostly about the conference he was going to and the people we knew there and how crazy and fun it was going to be

(what brought us together was that we are both in the same profession and our biggest interests and skills are in the same area. what made us fall apart is that after the accident i lost all connection mentally and emotionally with my work and we couldn't connect as much anymore - now i'm really working on rebuilding that connection)

when he left, we were out in the driveway - and i saw him walking towards me - i think he was going to give me a hug, but i casually turned to start walking into the house and said bye have a great trip - i could feel his disappointment and his face fell a bit - but i just couldn't give him that

so the emotions are rising a bit , but after writing here they are a slight bit calmer

i have a GAL coming up - waiting for my sweet friend who has been a staunch support through this (and one of the few who have not encouraged me to file for divorce) to call me and we are going out to lunch

after that i shall focus on getting 2 biggies on my list of to-do things done and then time for S to come home and be with him for the evening

it iS a good day and i will only think about accepting fully what is:)
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 06:16 PM
You and your H sound just like us. It is interesting that the introvert is the one who left. Don't you think? The control issue is what I see in many sitchs on the board. Control is really a problem and hard to let go of. But doable so keep at it you are doing great.
Posted By: Cadet Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 06:30 PM
Originally Posted By: zig

so tell me if i'm getting this all backwards - but it seems to me that if i was to really go dark, then it would be "more of the same" - but if i am really HERE accepting everything and still smiling then i am doing a total 180, because that was definitely NOT ME before - i was really critical and when he pushed my buttons too much i would shut down

You know your sich better than I do.
No Contact/Dark/ DIM are all options
and mabe what you need to do(pick one of the above),

The key is to STOP pursuit.
There are different kinds of pursuing traits, but you want him to pursue you, not the opposite.
Most men are sexual pursurers and emotional distancers.
Women are usually the opposite.
Now I am not telling you to sexually pursue him right now if he is involved with someone else.
But a 180 needs to be for the right thing.
If I am an alcholic and drinking vodka and switch to beer, you could say I did a 180.
Think that is going to help?
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 07:59 PM
"It is interesting that the introvert is the one who left. Don't you think?"

i don't know what to think -

in my darker less secure moments, i find myself thinking that he didn't want to be there from the start - that even though he loved me, he didn't want the commitment - i sensed it in a way all along and it always made me nervous. he cycled through periods where he made more effort and seemed more committed and then through periods where it was obvious he wanted to be elsewhere but felt he had to be a good dad and husband.

then i think - that he just wanted a big break from the heaviness of life and when it came in the form of the OW, he just went for it without thinking too much about what it really meant. he says he really thought about it alot before he decided to do it - i don't really know how he could have since he met her and they started either the same day or the next.

he says he thought about it for many months but only took the step when he met her - meanwhile during those same months our sex life was getting better, we were much warmer towards each other and he was acting the MOST caring that he ever had since we got together - how does that work

as far as introvert leaving - well - even though i am a natural extrovert, the effects of the accident made me the exact opposite - so maybe it's not so easy to apply a general rule here

about the control - i wince to think how i used to be - and how easy it is now to just not even be bothered about all those little things - i think it comes from a place of insecurity where having the semblance of control allows you to feel a stronger person - but it is so false...
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/01/12 08:06 PM
thanks for your answer cadet - i have definitely stopped pursuit for a while now - even when he gets all emotional and says how conflicted he is and how he wants both - i just stay quiet and genuinely have no expectations.

i've been burned several times during this separation - in the first couple of months where i let us sleep together - only to have him tell me the next morning how he was going to keep pursuing this other thing meaning ow.

after the third time i decided no more - if i ever sleep w/ him again it's because i am absolutely sure that he is really committed -

now i don't let him really know what i am thinking or feeling except to have implied a few times in the last couple of months that i am sort of done.

mil said what i thought was a strange thing a couple of weeks ago - only when you're really done and he realizes it will he wake up and suddenly start begging you to work it out.

well how does that work!!
Posted By: labug Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/02/12 01:40 AM
mil must be a divorce buster!
Posted By: labug Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/02/12 01:43 AM
Quote:
i will only think about accepting fully what is:)


Love.it!
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/02/12 02:08 AM
well in this case she is - though her hidden agenda - one she may not even be conscious of is that i think she feels really guilty.

i was going to ask, so i'll ask now - i've noticed through reading other posts -that no one seems to discuss or bring up family history - (and i don't remember reading about that in DR either) and how what may have happened in each partners family might have influenced the way each one thinks


but back to mil - i think she is dealing with a lot of what went on in her marriage for 40 yrs - while she and i talk in great detail about H's and mine. she and i became really good friends over the last few years, and i have been truly surprised at her staunch support.

it's amazing how in a sitch like this a ton of other pressured dynamics between the other family members also start rising to the surface..

i think though now, she finds it hard to tell me to keep that faith alive, because she keeps saying - i don't know this man anymore , it's like he's someone totally different.

she has known everything about the affair until now - but this last scenario that is playing out over the next 5 days - i simply don't have the heart to tell her that both her kids who have abruptly left their spouses are hanging out together with their lovers... bloody soap opera if you ask me
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/02/12 02:17 AM
well i have done GREAT today..

at least i feel that - kept the determination and refocused as much as i can.

even left S in house and walked around the block after dinner chanting because that is a terrible time of day for me. it helped

i have broken down my sitch into components and decided that each day i have to do one little thing in each of those areas, just a tiny little step

so -went out to lunch with my sweet friend
did my yoga and meditated
got a bunch of things on my to do list done
watched S's magic show - just for me:) (sometimes i feel so distraught its hard for me to really focus on him and give him my complete attention)

big one - talked to my mom and for once did not weep and cry and we didn't mention H and it was like a normal conversation!!

didn't get the work part done - but one step at a time...

so i'm quietly proud of myself - with my usual perfectionistic attitude the above list would have been pathetic in the part, but now,i'm learning to be more modest and more kind to myself and not give myself and others such huge challenges to overcome
Posted By: Cadet Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/02/12 09:55 AM
Originally Posted By: zig


i was going to ask, so i'll ask now - i've noticed through reading other posts -that no one seems to discuss or bring up family history - (and i don't remember reading about that in DR either) and how what may have happened in each partners family might have influenced the way each one thinks


YES FOO (Family of Origin) plays a huge part in why all of this may of happened but I think their is nothing that you can DO about it.

Your MIL can not FIX this, nor can you.

YOUR FOO may be of the FIXER mentality, so the only one who you can FIX is YOU.

Stop trying to FIX anyone else.

Good job on your list and that is a good start.
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/02/12 12:59 PM
thanks cadet - i was proud of my start yesterday - i think reading alot here and finding out what others are going through and what the real point is in this sitch )to take care of oneself completely) helped me get started.

i am still shaky, but understand that i will be for a while - that it is a process

about the FOO - it's not so much about trying to fix it as trying to understand - it's like history is repeating itself!

and yes, i'm also finally understanding that it is basically chasing my own tail to analyze everything - especially what he says and does and the why's and where's of everything in this sitch

so will add that to the list of things NOT to do:)
Posted By: Cadet Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/02/12 01:12 PM
Originally Posted By: zig

about the FOO - it's not so much about trying to fix it as trying to understand - it's like history is repeating itself!


This is perfectly normal, it is what everyone does, and as long as you understand the rest of what you wrote, there is nothing wrong with it.

It does help to understand it, because then you are able to do what you must do.
Mostly nothing, let go amd work on self.
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/02/12 03:17 PM
thanks cadet

it's weird - right from the beginning everyone around me was telling me that i need to take care of myself - i thought i was,

but only now 6 mos. down the road i'm even beginning to understand what they meant - i couldn't really understand it until now, and i'm sure over the next few weeks i will find myself understanding more and more.

i think i interpreted taking care of myself as meaning taking care of the situation - that because it affected me so deeply, i had to focus on making it better. i couldn't even begin to see that it meant acceptance and moving forward

on the other hand, i was making all the good changes - the ones that came automatically right in the beginning, but also the ones that came when i realized more and more what i had been and how certain actions of mine had made our relationship bad, and as soon as i would realize those things, i made the conscious effort to change them

where i got stuck was in moving forward - i still don't quite know which direction i'm headed in - especially work wise, which is my biggest challenge, but for the first time i am realizing that it is okay to begin to trust that even that will come out okay as long as i focus on my own baby steps

thanks for your support, and please continue to challenge me - i'm a stubborn one who's mind definitely has a lot of trouble in seeing things from a different perspective and really understanding the reality of what i have to do:)
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/02/12 03:27 PM
i've realized the last couple of days, that when i started this thread i was really in a bad place - like one long loud scream of protest that i don't like what's going on and doesn't anyone have the fix-it solution to take away all this pain.

now that i've calmed down with the help of all the wonderful people here, and through reading the experiences of others on this forum, i realize that there are very specific things i can do and that it is imperative for me to shift my focus towards them.

thank you everyone for helping me realize what i was doing and what to do to change that -

the biggest light bulb moment in the last couple of days for me is that - during this relationship whenever i couldn't get through to H i would sort of emotionally panic and try desperately to fix the situation.

it's finally occurred to me that it is still what i am doing - not allowing him the space (i am, in real life, but not in my MIND - if that makes sense) - and wanting him to do certain things (like give up the A) to show his love for me.

but the fact is that for once i have to simply step back (i have done that in our relationship but not in my own mind) and really just let things be and just CALM DOWN

big hugs to all and i hope that everyone reading this is having a really good day
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/02/12 03:37 PM
Zig that is some really good self assessment. Were u also argumentative? I ask because u said u are stubborn.
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/02/12 04:34 PM
argumentative is an understatement!

i cringe when i think how i used to be - add self-opinionated, impatient, too proud and defensive and it doesn't paint a very pretty pic does it? but you can also add extremely self-critical and very hard on myself!!

i am all those things when i feel that something is unfair,or when i don't feel heard. when i feel things are fair i'm actually lovely (grin) - extremely generous, very loving and supportive and life is fine.

of course what it comes down to is that it stems from experiences in my childhood, where i had to "endure" a lot of unfair situations (the way i saw it) and that theme, unfortunately has carried through my life.

now when i have realized this - i am taking the time to unravel that perspective, and trying to stop seeing things as fair or unfair, but more just as what life is about.

in buddhist teachings - they talk about the dualistic nature of our thinking - always seeing things in terms of good/bad, right/ wrong - which causes us so much suffering because we are always "centralizing towards ourselves" that is our egos are always interpreting every situation and reacting to it.

from what little i understand, the idea of not reacting to things from that stand point, means that one just stays in the moment and accepts what is.

i suspect that those are just words to me that i barely understand right now - i am acting AS IF, to practice doing that - until it i actually become that.

now that would be enlightenment then wouldn't it? (big grin!)

i was listening to pema chodron today - actually i listen to her as much as i can - it really helps me to calm down all this impatience and need and she was giving a whole bunch of different definitions of enlightenment.

then she laughed and said - the reason i'm giving you so many definitions is so that you will calm down, and not be in such a hurry... for you to realize that you just move forward inch by inch and that it is just a journey and not a specific place to reach...

its a soothing thought when one applies it to oneself, wouldn't you say - and if there is one thing we all need right now, is to be soothed on some level
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/04/12 01:52 PM
What you described about thinking is also called all or nothing thinking. When we think things are not fair we tell ourselves negative stuff. Hence we become depressed and irritable. So now it is time for you to stop wanting to be right. Let things go, be calm be wrong. It is ok to make mistakes. So are you also a perfectionist? Do you not complete tasks when they are due?
Posted By: labug Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/04/12 01:58 PM
realize that you just move forward inch by inch and that it is just a journey and not a specific place to reach...


That's the ticket!
Posted By: labug Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/04/12 02:04 PM
I've complained that H was keeping score but I didn't know it and suddenly I hit the magic number.

I kept score too but just a running tab of "yeah, buts" in my head, a whole litany of yeah, but I did this, you didn't do that, I always, you never and on and on.

That got me in big trouble because I was always loaded for bear! Itching for an argument.

Stuff happens and unless the R is abusive or there is active substance abuse, I now believe just let things go or figure out a way to approach it that's a win-win.
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/04/12 09:45 PM
thanks rick - you're right about what you say - it is all or nothing thinking and it has always got me into "trouble" with the people around me . i am watching more how i think and react - and really inspecting where my reactions are coming from, especially when i start to get irritable or impatient.

i am accepting that i am wrong about alot of things and each time i find myself starting to think of things H is doing now, i stop myself and shift the focus back to me, and what i am doing.

it really is time to stop harboring all the pain and resentment i feel about this situation and our relationship, and move towards a place of love in all my thoughts and actions

perfectionist? - oh yeah - and how. gotta stop doing that to and give myself and everyone else a break!!
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/04/12 09:54 PM
" I now believe just let things go or figure out a way to approach it that's a win-win."

oh yes - isn't it amazing when you consciously make that decision, how easy it is to let the little things go.

i actually did that right away and got better and better at letting all the little stuff go . in the beginning, i'd slip up, but now its really in place and i truly think that H is beginning to realize that it's not fake anymore

everything else you wrote is really true - and true for both of us, not just me

i'm also finding, that when i go into a "situation" or discussion with H beginning with the INTENT for it to be a win-win for both of us, then we come to the end of it both feeling good about it.

but when i go in with the intention of "proving my point" then it ends up not good at all

only when i read your words, and looked back at recent developments and thought about the situations where we, surprisingly for both of us, came to a good place, i realized what had happened.

so i will continue to do that each time there is something to deal with - start with an earnest attempt to move towards a win-win for both of us.

thanks labug - for helping me get that oh so important insight.

instead of losing our spouses, wish we could lose our egos instead!!!
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/04/12 10:03 PM
my GAL's for this weekend :

- really focused all week on letting go and detaching from the sitch, am in a way better place in my mind now - feeling more grounded, and a certain amount of calmness that i haven't felt in a very long time

- went to my sweet friend's house for dinner and a movie with the kids, S had a sleep over and i got a little extra time to myself to meditate

-rearranged a good bit of the house yesterday and today - moved my bedroom into what used to be the guest bedroom, and then moved my workspace and home office into the master bedroom, which is spacious and has lots of windows and good light. making what used to be the workspace into a yoga and meditation room

so rearranged the house so it's "My Space" and it feels wonderful

in laws came over to help with a couple of heavy things - and are real supportive and it just overall felt good

big GAL - used a bunch of tools and the electric drill and managed all by myself to take apart the king size bed and put it back together. haven't been able to do stuff like that for years, and it brought back suddenly how i used to be and how handy i was and independent. oh, it gave me a small/big boost of much needed confidence. also managed to move an XL king size futon all by myself - may sound like little things to other people, but for me it was huge - the feeling of not needing help and the strength to do it on my own.

cheers everyone:)
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/05/12 05:05 AM
i feel a bit confused and discouraged tonight.

went over to in-laws for dinner tonight with S. to make a long story short, mil had spoken to H's sis who had met OW this week. she didn't really have good things to say about OW - just that she seemed "pleasing"(said this quite hesitantly), but she couldn't sense or see the attraction between H and OW, and just couldn't see H with someone like her.

she was also quite concerned and upset that H had lied to son yesterday on the phone. it was a lie he didn't really need to tell, and i had been confused about it and was planning to post tonight about that.

mil and i had a long talk - apparently while the four of them had been having dinner together, H's sis had a light bulb moment and thought to herself what the hell am i doing?

on the other hand as mil pointed out to me - the real hurdle here seems to be that H has convinced himself that i am much better off without him - i didn't seem all that happy the first years and then got really down after the accident. even though i was getting better and happier the last 10 months before he walked out, he is insisting that it only happened after he left>

every time he's told me that, i've said to him that he woke me up and i realized that i was responsible for my own happiness, and that i had finally realized that, and even though there were painful things in my life, i had finally learned that i could still be and act happy and deal with those the best i could.

so i guess i'm feeling a bit discouraged tonight - that he may just never give us a chance even though we really love each other and are really deeply attracted to each other, just because he's scared and feeling vulnerable

i suddenly saw what he sees in the ow tonight - someone very calm, pleasant, totally non-aggressive, non-argumentative and perfectly acquiescent. he needed a break from my super strong personality - he was simply exhausted from the constant challenge.

talked to him this evening when he called to say bye to S before he got on his flight abroad. i told S i wanted to say bye too, and when i got on the phone he sounded really relieved - he thought i would be so upset with him because he'd just been with ow that i wouldn't say bye. we had quite a nice neutral conversation and made plans for him to skype S on tuesday

that has been by far my BIGGEST 180 in these months. for 10 yrs every time i didn't like what he said or did, i got mad or irritated and pushed him away. now, i think he's a bit floored - i should be pissing mad at him - the person he knows, but i consistently act pleasant and calm and have light happy conversations with him and tell him when he asks -that yes things are difficult between us, but that doesn't mean we can't set them aside and still find we can be fine around each other

it's so difficult - hearing about her, and i find myself feeling not quite so detached as i was before - i know, it takes time.

i guess i feel a bit more nervous - he's brought her into the family, by letting her meet his sister - and that feels a bit close for comfort. i know, i shouldn't believe anything he says and 50% of what he does.

i'm not weepy or all emotional - just a bit edgy and uncomfortable - or is it that this thing is getting more and more bizarre and i just can't take it all in.

the craziest thing this weekend, was that because he lied to S, we all found ourselves scrambling to keep the lie going to protect S, and i found myself thinking, is this really worth it? mil too was exhausted from trying to keep track of which version was said to whom - all to make sure that it didn't come out that he lied and that S didn't realize he had been lied to

this is one comfortless situation...
Posted By: ces67 Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/05/12 01:42 PM
Zig,

I'm still catching up on your thread but your last post sounds like a great 180 for you. Your recognized a behavior that didn't help and you adjusted for the situation. That's a great step. You can learn from it and continue doing it for you.

I completely get the discomfort and nervousness of your H bringing the OW closer into their life. It is betrayal and unsettling to the core.

I'm still learning this myself but this is where detachment can help you. You H behavior is not about you. He can blame, make excuses or whatever all he wants. Ultimately, he decides how he wants to act in the face of adversity. His choices, IMO, are cowardly. He's choosing to walk away and convince himself you're better off without him. That's just an excuse to not have to put the work into your M. That is NOT your fault.

Looks like your GAL stuff is helping so keep up with that as well.

Also, I missed what the lie was but from a personal boundary point of view, I think its appropriate to let H know that it was not necessary and that you and others will not put in the effort to cover him. Your H is responsible for his relationship with S. I'm guessing you're trying to protect your S but if this path continues, you and others won't be able to cover everything and it will ulimately hurt worse. Better to make your H accountable for it now before it continues. Just my opinion and I completely get where its far easier to say than to do.

Take care,
Posted By: labug Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/05/12 01:58 PM
Quote:
- the real hurdle here seems to be that H has convinced himself that i am much better off without him - i didn't seem all that happy the first years and then got really down after the accident. even though i was getting better and happier the last 10 months before he walked out, he is insisting that it only happened after he left>


Most likely it helps relieve his conscience. But there is truth to it and your response is correct.

Quote:
every time he's told me that, i've said to him that he woke me up and i realized that i was responsible for my own happiness, and that i had finally realized that, and even though there were painful things in my life, i had finally learned that i could still be and act happy and deal with those the best i could.


Would it help if you set a boundary with his family? That being, no discussion of H. It seems that's a jumbled mess that you don't need to deal with right now.

Quote:
i suddenly saw what he sees in the ow tonight - someone very calm, pleasant, totally non-aggressive, non-argumentative and perfectly acquiescent. he needed a break from my super strong personality - he was simply exhausted from the constant challenge.
Do you know this woman? I wouldn't spend too much time comparing or even thinking about her. We're all on our best behavior at the beginning of a R. And chances are he's not running to her or away from you but rather away from himself.

Quote:
so i guess i'm feeling a bit discouraged tonight - that he may just never give us a chance even though we really love each other and are really deeply attracted to each other, just because he's scared and feeling vulnerable

This may be true.

All you can do it become the best Zig you can.

I agree with Ces on H's responsibilities in his R with S.
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/05/12 02:45 PM
ces67

thank you for all you wrote - and thanks for taking the time to read my abysmally long posts.

you're right about setting the boundaries, and i was thinking about that myself last night. in addition to the emotional upset, carrying this lie has been the most difficult part of this situation.

i recognized that months ago and had told him that i didn't want to carry the lie and so i didn't want to know when he met her and he was to arrange it so i didn't need to know.

well that doesn't really work because he has to go out of town to see her, and that means that S has to stay with me.

for each trip, he's told the family and S that he is in other places and mil and i have sort of carried the truth meanwhile and it hasn't been too difficult (except that he is SO STRESSED talking and skyping with S while he is with OW, that he has acted really really weird and so S has always been quite upset after the calls

the lie this weekend - i didn't say what it was - but it basically involved H telling S that he was in a completely different place then he actually was. then later, he must have forgotten what he said, and the story changed and we had to scramble to figure out explanations and keep holding the story

in terms of covering for him - i tried to set that boundary, but didn't really use the right strategy. unfortunately until now, if i point things like that out to him, he really loses it. so i will have to find a way to do this. any implication from me that he is not taking care of his son is met with great anger and so i need to think about how to approach him about this. (one of his big complaints was that i didn't allow him to participate in parenting S and he wants to prove that he can do it - he is very sensitive about any issue to do with S)

so if you have any thoughts on different approaches, i'd love to hear your opinion -

thanks so much
zig
Posted By: adinva Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/05/12 02:52 PM
S10s going to feel betrayed by everyone he loves if he catches you in a lie about this. Will he buy "I'm not exactly sure S10 but you can ask him about it next time you talk"?

Letting my H deal with such questions takes the burden of protecting their relationship off of me, where it is not my business, and puts it on him, whose business it is.
Posted By: labug Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/05/12 02:54 PM
Expect boundaries to upset the person being given the limitations. No one every says "Thanks so much for that!"
Posted By: ces67 Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/05/12 03:08 PM
Bug's right. Putting the boundary in place will upset your H. I've been trying for far to long to figure out ways to do it without upsetting my W.

The reality is they will be upset. The other reality is, that is their choice and we don't have to take on their anger. Its theirs to deal with and we don't have to.

I've got 2 major items I have to confront W about and I'm dreading both because she will get upset. I'm working on ways to make it as minimal an issue as possible but the main thing I am doing is preparing myself mentally that any angry response is my W's to deal with and I don't have to get sucked into it.

If your H is lying to his son to cover his behavior, that is a poor way to show care. None of us are perfect. I'm sure he's doing good things too, but that doesn't mean he or anyone else gets to continue behaviors that are not helpful. He has to choose to accept, learn and grow and you can't make him do it. But you don't have to support the behavior.

This will be tough on you because your H will get upset. But you can handle it.
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/05/12 03:15 PM
thanks labug - i look forward to your replies - you always get me feeling a bit grounded again:)

you're right - there is truth to it. i was unhappy, because after moving here, i started to see little things that didn't quite fit . it made me nervous and anxious about what i had got myself into. i did come to terms with them, and was much happier later, but there was alot of frustration, because he just remained closed emotionally, always insisting he was fine when i could clearly see that he was not. that made me really unhappy, because i couldn't do anything about it because he wouldn't tell me what was not good for him - now of course (weak grin!) i get to hear about 10 yrs worth of it, all at once!!

boundaries with the family - yes - i'm realizing in this last week, that one of the 37 rules i am completely NOT following is the one of not discussing the sitch with family. i believe i have made a really gross judgement in error, doing that with mil - talking till we are blue in the face and analyzing all this. it's become a habit in a way, and especially when there are developments like this, i think we try to reassure each other that he will change his mind and come to his senses.

but lately it is getting a bit stranger where in the same conversation she will reassure me that she really thinks he is going to "see the light" and then 10 mins later is saying that maybe i am better off without him. those conversations are leaving me feeling very confused and unsettled and i am slowly realizing that they are not good for us at all

the ow - i know her sister and mother. her sis is an old friend of H's from his most favorite days during college, and the three of us have been to visit them 2 or 3 times in the last few years. none of us had met ow until he went down there in aug to visit them. one of H's dilemmas here is that if he hurts ow it's possible he may lose his friendship with her sis. he did tell me that sis and mom were quite upset when they realized what was going on and his words were, because they love you so much.

but he said that months ago, and i don't know what he's telling them now, probably something like zig is really really okay with this and everything is great.

on his second trip down there (when this first started) i had insisted that he take them gifts that i had made for them (i had no idea what was going on then) and it was a few months before i got a thank you card from their mom. but neither of them have tried to call or talk to me. if OW is anything like mom and sis, then i know the attraction - it is sweet!! in the next post i'll tell you what happened when he went ot visit after x'mas for 12 daysand you can maybe help me to see what all that meant, or if it just didn't mean anything at all

All you can do it become the best Zig you can.

you are right labug - that is really all i can and should do
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/05/12 07:00 PM
thanks for your suggestion adinva and your insight

that has been what i have been doing with S - telling him that he needs to ask his dad, or then saying i don't know and i'll find out.

i guess this time, i got thrown a bit off kilter, not expecting H to toss a weird lie like that into the mix that was in a way so unnecessary and pointless

i didn't involve myself in explanations -in fact i was very careful not to say anything because after H left on thursday, i realized that i didn't know what he had said to S and i thought that i'd just wait to see if S brought it up

then i just happened to hear S's side of the phone conversation, and then asked him what his dad had said. after that i just informed grandparents, so that they would not inadvertently slip up and say the wrong thing - the only one it would hurt was S and maybe i am overprotecting him?

i just don't know where to draw the line between just letting things happen and S putting 2 and 2 together and being really overwhelmed, or taking steps to make sure that even if H slips up, S doesn't find out about the affair.

H has said that it's not something S needs to know, and i feel that at this point S would just be devastated, let alone not even begin to understand what it all means
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/05/12 07:08 PM
i know, and in spite of knowing his reactions, i have consistently put many boundaries in place, and recently especially when he has reacted with anger when i have tried to say something.

several times when he's started to jump down my throat and instead of dealing with the issue at hand has just started going on about all the wrong i did to him for 10 yrs, i have very calmly and pleasantly said to him that i believe he needs to leave right now (when he's been at the house). it has after some more reaction on his part, made him calm down and allow us to work it through

i have to say while writing the above, i suddenly remember the early years of arguments, and realize that that was a theme in our inability to problem solve - every time we'd try to talk about something, instead of talking about that, he would always veer the conversation into what was wrong with our whole marriage (me and what i did) and totally take us away from the issue at hand.

then i would get horribly frustrated and land up getting angry and walk away

so in remembering that, i realize now that that's another 180 i've shown him - set a boundary and even pointed out to him that he's veering away from what we are supposed to be talking about, and instead of getting mad staying really calm - and then giving him the space and chance to calm down himself and deal with what needs to be dealt with

slowly inch by inch, eh?
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/05/12 07:24 PM
thanks for having the confidence that i can handle it ces67:)

i know that dread feeling when you know you just have to approach them with something that will make them fly off the handle. in those moments i feel so intimidated by the situation.

my memory of the first two months of this sitch is this non-stop daily WALL of anger that was in my face. everything gave him a reason to get really mad and i remember telling mil, that if there wasn't an immediate reason, then it felt as if he was looking for one - anything everything.

then as he saw me not reacting back with anger - consistently - he very slowly started to calm down little by little.


"If your H is lying to his son to cover his behavior, that is a poor way to show care"

the irony of it all - everyone but H realizes and sees that. the sad thing is that i have to live unauthentically, lying with my whole being to my son. i believe that that sort of negative energy gets passed to the people around us anyway, no matter how hard you try - and i really have problems with living this lie

on the one hand the relief of it being out in the open seems like it would be so good, but on the other hand will it make the situation much more difficult for S to handle?

and besides, isn't it his decision whether or not S should know?

on top of all this what i find even more curious is H's sisters criticism of his lying to S - that she can question his lying but doesn't realize that she is lying to protect him too.

MWD says in her book that it is better not to expose the affair - am i right? because it doesn't serve any good purpose, i have no intention of doing that on any level - there are certain people i have told - very close friends, whom i chose carefully knowing that they would support me but wouldn't hold anything against H later if things did work out.

but when it comes to S and the family - i have to find the right balance between protecting S emotionally (i don't think H is capable of that right now) and keeping myself sane in all this

good luck with talking to your W about those issues - i hope that you will stay strong and centered in the heated moments and not get pulled into the anger
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/06/12 02:20 AM
struggling again -

anyone got some good links to threads which talk about detachment and what has helped them?

also wanted to ask - how does one figure out if this is MLC or WAS and does it matter which one - do you do different things?

i need a knock upside the head. every time i get to a slightly better place in myself, he'll do something that will set me off and then i realize all over again how NOT detached i really am
Posted By: labug Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/06/12 02:26 AM
Google detachment and livestrong.

More here: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956

Keep searching, you'll find the strength you need. Some days it's minute by minute.
Posted By: labug Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/06/12 02:27 AM
Ohh, I don't think the "diagnosis" matters, you still can only work on you.
Posted By: Cadet Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/06/12 11:33 AM
Originally Posted By: zig
how does one figure out if this is MLC or WAS and does it matter which one - do you do different things?

Comfusion = MLC

What you DO does not change.
Posted By: ces67 Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/06/12 01:00 PM
Originally Posted By: zig
struggling again -

i need a knock upside the head. every time i get to a slightly better place in myself, he'll do something that will set me off and then i realize all over again how NOT detached i really am


You're seeing the reason this is called a "roller coaster ride". You're going to be up & down with various things that happen.

Detaching is a process and its doesn't seem to be a fast one. We all need that knock on the head to get us back on a better track. That's why we come to this board.

Use the event to recognize what it is that is drawing you back in emotionally to the crazy ride. Then learn from it. Its not easy, its not quick, but take every opportunity to learn it and the detaching will get better.

I'm sure Bug's link will provide a lot more insight on detachment. Wish it were easier. But the reality is what it is and once we accept what is reality, then we can be better prepared to handle ourselves in that reality.

Hope your day goes better.
Posted By: labug Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/06/12 01:32 PM
Zig this was my daily reading for today. Fits me, maybe it will strike a chord in you.

Peace

Anxiety is often our first reaction to conflict, problems, or even our own fears. In those moments, detaching and getting peaceful may seem disloyal or apathetic. We think: If I really care, I'll worry; if this is really important to me, I must stay upset. We convince ourselves that outcomes will be positively affected by the amount of time we spend worrying.

Our best problem-solving resource is peace. Solutions arise easily and naturally out of a peaceful state. Often, fear and anxiety block solutions. Anxiety gives power to the problem, not the solution. It does not help to harbor turmoil. It does not help.

Peace is available if we choose it. In spite of chaos and unsolved problems around us, all is well. Things will work out. We can surround ourselves with the resources of the Universe: water, earth, a sunset, a walk, a prayer, a friend. We can relax and let ourselves feel peace.

Today, I will let go of my need to stay in turmoil. I will cultivate peace and trust that timely solutions and goodness will arise naturally and harmoniously out of the wellspring of peace. I will consciously let go and let God.Melody Beattie

Since childhood I can remember worrying over problems and thinking "If I stop worrying then it's out of my control" and really bad things might happen. It's taken all these years to realize that worrying does not give me control. Let it go is the best act of control I have.
Posted By: tenbusrider Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/06/12 01:42 PM
Bug - That really resonates with me, thank you for posting it. Is that in Codependent No More? I have that sitting here, been reading it in spurts. It gets hard to keep reading self-help material, but that may make me force myself again.

I'm also completely with you on the "if I stop worrying" bit. Like I was somehow the most important person in the world and MY worry was going to change things. It's a hard habit to break, but I'm trying.
Posted By: labug Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/06/12 01:45 PM
It's from "The Language of Letting Go"

Glad it helped.

I always thought if I worried enough I would some up with THE Solution.
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/06/12 04:01 PM
thanks labug - did a lot of reading last night - need to keep doing that, it helps to calm down:)
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/06/12 04:02 PM
you're right - i think my question came during a moment when i was doing the proverbial "grasping for straws" thing!

labug - you are right it doesn't matter what the diagnosis is - it's about me and working on myself

i'm getting it, it's getting through to me - inch by painful inch...
Posted By: Seminolewind Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/06/12 07:58 PM
Zig,

I have been in a pair of shoes very similar to the ones you are wearing now. I didn’t like the lying, it’s ridiculous and after a while I just said no more. I just told my ex that I wasn’t going to live my life lying about the things she does. I quit and let her find her own way. I did so much soul searching and why in the world should I lie for someone that wasn’t being responsible? I don’t want to tell you that this is your only choice. I just know it worked for me at the time. Think everything through and do what works for you and your S. You will find the answers once you accept what is happening.

I grasped for many straws. It’s part of this journey and when you finally really detach things will become so much easier. The best way I thought about detachment was “ if you love them set them free”. It’s hard for a while and it’s a process little by little day by day. You just start working on it a little at a time every minute and every second. You are going to have good and bad days then the good days will start coming more often. Then one day you will just accept that these are your H choices and we have no control over the choices that anyone make but ourselves. Have faith in yourself and you will find your way through the fog.

Something else that helped me and you have to have a very strong mind to get to this point. Start becoming the one that walked away. Tell yourself that you are leaving him every day. I thought about this every day until I really did feel this way. The funny thing about us humans is we always want something we can’t have. I decided to change the dynamics of my sitch and it helped. I look at things completely different than some people and I didn’t save my marriage. I did save myself and I still have days that I miss my ex they just don’t come as often. I am a good man and I worry about her often I just realized that it’s best to let them travel this journey on their own. When you do finally detach everything just becomes so dang clear and you feel a huge weight lifted off your chest. Now my ex is nice as pie the lying is still there and I have accepted that they are so far behind that it will take them a while to catch up. That’s not making an excuse for anything that they do those are their choices not ours. They have to live with the guilt of their choices we don’t.

Time is going to be your best friend through all of this.

Take care!
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/07/12 03:56 AM
sorry for taking so long to reply - my computer was giving me trouble

"Use the event to recognize what it is that is drawing you back in emotionally to the crazy ride. Then learn from it"

that is very good advice and i am going to start doing that (grin)

i think -i keep getting my hopes up when there is any little positive sign and then reality hits and i crash.

that's where the no expectations thing really comes in, i know, so i am going to focus on that

after reading what you wrote, i am also realizing that just recognizing that the ups and downs are part of it, is what makes it a tiny bit easier to handle

thank-you ces
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/07/12 04:01 AM
"We think: If I really care, I'll worry; if this is really important to me, I must stay upset. We convince ourselves that outcomes will be positively affected by the amount of time we spend worrying."

oh labug - this is wonderful to read - it more than resonates with me - it's a huge big gong going off in my head

what occurred to me - is it a certain type of person (us?) that lands up in this situation because of the way we think, feel and react?

does the universe/god/higher power give us this situation so that we can unlearn all these things?

I CHOOSE PEACE:)

thankyou - your support and everyone else's here touches my heart and makes me trust that little bit more, that things WILL be okay no matter what happens
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/07/12 04:06 AM
thank you for your thoughts seminolewind and for sharing what you've been through.

i keep telling myself that - "if i love him, i can set him free" - and i do believe it on a certain level - if i'm honest, more in my head than in my heart until now - but the shift is starting to happen so i will allow it to unfold in it's own time
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/07/12 04:26 AM
yesterday and today have been unexpected and maybe a bit puzzling. after i read all the wonderfully supportive posts from everyone, i calmed down alot.

as i was standing at the sink doing the dishes last night, i found myself becoming aware for the first time of some new insight into what i need to work on within myself. it was disturbing and very emotional and i cried alot in between taking care of son and putting him to bed.

but the amazing thing was that it was a quiet release sort of crying - where i was calm - i don't really know what to do with the information i have found within myself, but i realized while i was going through it that i had finally identified the daunting (unidentifiable) fear that has been with me ever since this sitch started and also before during our relationship, that was buried so deep that i was unable to face it.

now when it came out in the open, it was accompanied by a calmness that i haven't felt in a long long while.

it's as if , now that i know what the monster is, i know what the challenge is for myself and i'm not just flailing blindly

i just went to bed and meditated until i fell asleep and all through today, the calmness stayed with me - after i read labug's post, it helped even more as i saw it as peace

so i don't know if the following quaalifies as a GAL or more in the detachment thing

when H skyped us this evening - i chatted for a few minutes in a very friendly manner and then left him and son to it. i got quite emotional (it's impossible to tell if ow is with him or not) after i left the room, i think mostly because he simply would not look at me or even towards the camera - he literally turned his head to the side

i haven't mentioned it before , but that is what he does quite frequently - also when we are together for eg at his parents - he will turn his head completely away from me and even have a conversation like that. what i sense is that he can't bear to face me. and it is difficult for me

so i stayed away from the skype - and this is the best part for me - after getting all upset, i calmed down quite soon - in minutes and told myself that it doesn't matter what he's doing or where and with whom. i didn't feel it completely a 100% but almost - it was mostly hard, because S and i should have/could have been there with him and it was hard for both of us to see him there, without us

the best part was that even though i got upset, it wasn't so frantic and i still felt that peaceful feeling.

i have my second apptmt w/ the therapist tomorrow morning - which i am really looking forward to.

thanks again and hugs to everyone for being here for me - i hope i can return the favor one day
Posted By: labug Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/07/12 02:09 PM
FYI, the mods like us to start a new thread when you reach 100 posts.

Guess what you're there!
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/07/12 02:23 PM
thanks labug - i was wondering how that worked.
does one keep the same title?

hope you're well today
Posted By: labug Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/07/12 02:31 PM
You can title it whatever you want.

Same to you.
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/07/12 05:34 PM
i saw the therapist this morning - she says that i need to focus on my own dysfunctional behaviors, and get my life back together, and everything else comes after

she's tough and she is right - i think too much about this, and focus too much on this - as an excuse for not taking care of myself and what i should be really doing

H's dysfunctional behavior is his own problem now. she said that from what i described our relationship was very dysfunctional and co-dependent. i know that already, so am now only going to focus on myself and the changes i need to put in place
Posted By: ces67 Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/07/12 05:42 PM
Sounds like a wise IC, you've got.

Don't be too hard on yourself about how long the dysfunction has been there. I think that same thing could be said about my M even though we appeared happy for years. Looking back now, I can see my own dysfuctional behaviors even in the first year of our marriage.

Be aware that as you shift your focus, its very likely that you will be tempted to get drawn back into focusing on your H's behaviors. I do this a lot. I think its normal. Just need to be aware of it so when you see it, you can adjust.
Posted By: zig Re: am i on the right track??? - 03/07/12 08:08 PM
"focusing on my H's behavior"

that , i am beginning to realize has been one of my biggest downfalls in this relationship - and the sad thing is that i am still doing that now.

i'm a mess right now - i think i'm scared to take the steps i need to - that it's easier for me to see what he's doing rather than to face what i am and what i'm doing - or rather not doing.

thanks ces for the heads up on being aware that it's normal to keep slipping and focusing on the H - i will keep that in mind
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