I'm a Male 33 and W 31, we have 2 children daughter 8 and son 5. SIT - my W is ILYBNILWY now after being married for 8 and half years and together for 12. I'm in the last year of my degree, just been made redundant - (which the money has been spent on home improvements & a family vacation booked for June in Florida). I now realise that I haven't been meeting my wife's needs emotionally and physically. I have been so focused on getting a good degree so I can become a teacher, whenever I wasn't studying I was thinking about it and have become distant. This affected everything, being intimate, having meaningful conversations, spending quality time together. Last year in September I took up ballroom dancing to go with my wife, who'd been going for nearly 3 years, so that we could spend time together at least once a week. At first this helped the relationship, but my wife felt that I was being akward and didn't like dancing with her. It wasn't that, I was just pretty bad at it & paranoid about standing on her feet all the time. Anyway, my dance class night changed and we couldn't get a babysitter, so I kept it up on my own & my wife went on her regular night. So this regular social activity ended in January.
My wife has been going out a lot lately partying & not coming home until 5am & this Saturday it was 8am. I know that this is because I haven't been meeting her needs & I'm not suspicious of her cheating on me (I still trust my wife)but I worry about her sick when she's out & stay up until she's home. A fortnight ago we were out dancing for a presentation night & my wife wanted to go out to town after it. i didn't and said that I didn't want to go (selfishly because I didn't want to get in @ 5am and see her waste another Sunday in bed hungover). My W took this as the last straw and said that was it, we didn't have a relationship and she didn't want me anymore. I was devastated, and tried my best to do whatever I could to show my wife how I felt (which I now realise is what we call smothering). On that Saturday night, when she came home @ 8am, which was a week after the dancegate,I was worried about her and tried to have a heart to heart with her. She asked me to leave, but that we won't tell the kids & upset them. So I spent a night on my sister's couch & sneaked back in to get the kids ready for school. My W then said that you can't afford rent for your sister & that I would be better off sleeping on the couch, which is where I've been the past 2 nights. I feel really pathetic, because she's right I can't afford to move out, I don't want to upset the kids and I'm more madly in love with my wife than when we first met & it's burning me inside. I haven't been enjoying life for the moment, but this last week I started to and instead of worrying about not studying when it was half term school holidays - I forgot about it & had a blast with the kids. I loved it!! I wish I'd seen how I've been sooner, because I feel like I've not had any real fun in nearly 3 years and missed out on so much living with my wife and kids. i feel so guilty, because if she felt like how I'm feeling now and has gotten over it, why should she give me another chance?
Tonight she went to bed straight after the kids did, and as soon as it was safe to do so, I cried my eyes out. I can't go on like this, the only thing keeping me going is the unconditional love of my 2 beautiful children and the hope that my beautiful wife, gives me another chance.
I'm really sorry for such a long 1st post, but has anyone got any advice for me please?
Welcome to the board.
Get the DR book and read it.
You need to learn about Detachment
You need to give her SPACE
And not beg, plead or pursue
Get out and GAL.
But remain true to your marriage vows.
Be the BEST DAD that you can BE.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.
Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
coming home at 5 and 8am and not suspicious of her cheating?
think again...
coming home at 5 and 8am and not suspicious of her cheating?
think again...
I now realise that I haven't been meeting my wife's needs emotionally and physically. I have been so focused on getting a good degree so I can become a teacher, whenever I wasn't studying I was thinking about it and have become distant. This affected everything, being intimate, having meaningful conversations, spending quality time together.
Have you noticed some of the things she has said over the past years or months that would have led up to this? Did she give you any warnings that she was unhappy?
My wife has been going out a lot lately partying & not coming home until 5am & this Saturday it was 8am. I know that this is because I haven't been meeting her needs & I'm not suspicious of her cheating on me (I still trust my wife)but I worry about her sick when she's out & stay up until she's home.
Do not fall into the trap of beleiving that her doing this is justified or mildly justified just because you have not or supposedly have not been meeting her needs. Certainly it may be a result of it. And you can't stop her. But do not for a moment think "well, I had this coming."
You may have had your head in a different place than the relationship for a few years here with your studies but you DID NOT have it figuratively up where the sun don't shine. You were trying to do what you thought was best for yourself and your family, which is quite honorable. Unfortunately, you are finding that sometimes relationships start to wilt even when you think you are doing the right thing. I will actually ask you a repeat question, kind of like the first questons I had: Did your W say anything about you being distant? Complaints?
A fortnight ago we were out dancing for a presentation night & my wife wanted to go out to town after it. i didn't and said that I didn't want to go (selfishly because I didn't want to get in @ 5am and see her waste another Sunday in bed hungover).
I can't tell if you are being facetious here or not, but if not, why do you feel that was selfish?
So I spent a night on my sister's couch & sneaked back in to get the kids ready for school. My W then said that you can't afford rent for your sister & that I would be better off sleeping on the couch, which is where I've been the past 2 nights. I feel really pathetic, because she's right I can't afford to move out,
There's a lot of different posters on this board and you will hear a lot of different takes on things, but what seems to be one of the few constants is that YOU should not be moving anyplace. If she is that unhappy, she can move. I would flat out tell her something like: "Ok, I went to my sister's one night and have been sleeping on the couch for awhile, but I'm not going to do that anymore. This is my bed and my bedroom as much as it is yours, I'm not sleeping anywhere else." You can't afford to move out, so don't. Don't feel pathetic about it...most people can't afford it.
i feel so guilty, because if she felt like how I'm feeling now and has gotten over it, why should she give me another chance?
Personally, I don't see any reason to feel guilty. You are 33, not 83. You weren't emotionally absent for a whole lifetime. Sometimes in life one has to take a short term loss for a long term gain. That doesn't at all mean you couldn't have balanced your time and engagement to the details of your family better, I'm sure you could have done a lot better in retrospect. But guilt is useless right now, because you're looking in the rear view mirror. Make up for lost time with your kids immediately-it's not too late with them. Please do not beat yourself up.
You ask why would she give you another chance? I think you need to be careful that you are not mind reading here or putting thoughts in her head that may not be there. You don't know how she might ultimately react if you are able to truly follow the DB principles and the 37 rules. If you have not seen the 37 rules, do a search on this site and follow them religiously. You don't know that she wouldn't, or even felt the same as you do now, so I wouldn't let that thought dominate your thoughts.
Tonight she went to bed straight after the kids did, and as soon as it was safe to do so, I cried my eyes out. I can't go on like this, the only thing keeping me going is the unconditional love of my 2 beautiful children and the hope that my beautiful wife, gives me another chance.
2 things: I think you needed to get a good cry out and I am glad you realize it is only ok to do so when it "is safe". At the risk of sounding like you should always have to be macho, crying around her really would be bad. Looks unattractive and weak.
Also, consider this: You hope she will give you another chance. What if she doesn't? Let's pretend it all ended tomorrow. Would you live your days in despair, or would you pick up the pieces and be strong? Would you live your life for YOU and your kids, and be the man and dad you want to be from thereon? I hope you would.
Now, stop pretending as mentioned above. Look at the situation on hand. You are living your days in a state of despair right now. Instead of that, you need to pick up the shattered feelings you have right now and do something about them, for YOU. Be the man YOU want to be, not the man who stays hung up on feeling guilty.
You can turn the page. Not to get your wife to stop anything or to give you another chance. But to improve yourself and to get out of this despair. The hope is that your wife would utlimately notice this, and realize she is making a wrong choice, for HER. But you'd want to do this anyway for YOU, regardless of what she chooses to do.
Right now is a very hard time Bill. Feels like all the wheels are coming off. But you will make it through this.
I wish you well.
Thanks everyone - here is where I'm up to I double posted sorry...
I'm sorry I haven't been back on here for a while & didn't think my last thread worked. I'm at a different place now I was trying miserably at the 37 steps & what finally got through to her was a full on dressing down to - I ran the riot act at her & said I was leaving regardless of what she wanted and packed a bag. She cracked & brokedown and when she started to open up to me she said she believed I still loved her & wasn't just saying these things, because I had faught for her and she could see in my eyes I meant every word of it. We made up and had the best sex of my life. I was so happy, I'd been given another chance and I was gonna take it and make her feel like the only woman in the world. Then hours later she confessed to having an affair with her dance partner. She says that they haven't slept together - only kissed and fooled around - but on that other post when she came in @ 8am she had gone back to his place. I was so mixed up emotionally, on the one hand I was on cloud 9 so happy & then this which I should have worked out really. She said that she had called him & told him it was over & delted his number from her phone & all the text messages and said that she would stop going dancing altogether. I forgave her and we went back to bed and made love twice and I had never felt closer to her. Today it sunk in what she had done and I don't hate her, I just hate what she's done. I've booked myself in for some counselling to try & deal with the trust issue. I asked her to show me any text messages he sends before she deletes them, which today she did & deleted without responding to it. It's going to be hard, she feels so guilty and rightly so!! I want it to work so bad & have forgiven her. I'm happy but it's tinged with the thought of another man touching my wife. I know I can get over it, I just hope she can cope with the guilt & not run away from this.
Thank you so much for the advice Grocerykartman and Luvless you were right about the 8am coming home after being out.
I'm conscious about leaving a long post so I'll just say that after a row on Sunday when I put her in her place about how she was acting & said I was leaving - she broke down. I fought for her and told her how much I wanted to be with her & broke most of the 37 rules. We made up & made love (unbelievable-best ever).
**(will continue on next post)
continued..
later she told me about OM her dance partner & that she had got close to him & kissed & she was with him on that night when she came in @ 8am. She is adamant that they never slept together & that it is now over - she ended it & deleted his text messages , number & has quit dancing. I forgave her and we went back to bed & made love - I've got all the questions I needed to ask answered & I am moving on and moving forward with our Marriage.
**(will continue)
We've never communicated and been as close as we are now. It feels better than when we first got together & as soon as she gets in from work we can't keep our hands off each other. She promised me to show me her phone if he texts and not reply - then delete it. She has asked her friend to call him to ask him to stop texting her. I wanna beat him up, but I know that won't change anything. (continued)
* continued - I have booked myself in for some free counselling sessions @ UNI which I have told W about. This is to help me get back on track in life - talk through with a stranger how I'm feeling & not have anyone judge me. I know that there is a risk that this might happen again to me ( W cheating), but I'm so happy that I will leave it in the past & this is a fresh start for both of us which I'm not going to screw up.
Once again I apologise for all the double posting - forgot about the moderation delays.
I'll keep people up to date with the developments as they go - I'm a long way from being out of the woods and this OM is still texting her - although she's not texting back.
Any advice from you guys is always welcome.
I'm really sorry for going missing on here for a while - my head's not been right. I really do appreciate the advice. I'm gonna post another update on developments.
After Sunday's fireworks of getting back together & then being told about the affair, things are a little rocky. She's told me more about the affair and although she's not texting him & he hasn't text back, I don't think she wants it to be over. She's devestated about not being able to go back dancing and asked again if she could go to just the lesson. I said that I felt that she had rejected all my offers to go out, even dancing and at the weekend with the kids. She was cold & although she reciprocates when I show affection - she doesn't initiate it anymore. ** will continue
yesterday I said to her that in the past the thought of having another baby scared me, but that now our children were a little older it doesn't anymore. I said I'm not saying I want to have a baby right now, but I don't feel the way I used to about it. I can understand why, but she took this as I wanna have a baby to fix everything - I don't. I was just trying to show her that my feelings had changed towards the idea having a baby. I screwed up!! for one of the 1st times in ages she left her phone unattended and she was bitching about me to a friend from dancing - saying no way will she have a baby to me and that it won't change the way she feels. ** continued
I didn't confront her about the message, but asked her if this is what she wanted as I didn't feel like she wanted to hold me. she said it was hard for her and that she is trying, I said I understand - but think I'm just setting myself up for a fall. I want it to work so bad I feel like I'm losing my integrity & self esteem. What should I do?
This is the same stich I found myself in. We madeup after EA bomb and were very active sexually for us and I assumed all was well. Then about 2 months later I found them talking in a bar at 3 am and after we left she got home and I got "i cannot take this anymore, i need my own place, etc."
So, almost 2 months later after 2nd bomb, no sex, W still here, no contact with OM, but W is of mindset "taking it day by day and trying my best to do what's right."
So we went from me thinking all was ok while she was "faking it? trying?" to "I have to have my own space," to "I'm trying to do the right thing." Of course, D14 found out about OM shortly after bomb 2 and let W have it, so that was some of the impetus of her and non contact w OM.
I suggest from my experience, you lower your expectations and take it slow, hard as it may be (I know how hard it is!!!). This is no quick and easy fix.
Have you read either of the DR or DB books? By your posts is doesn't seem like it as you are doing everything MWD says not to. You're bouncing all over the place.
[quote=jlove]This is the same stich I found myself in. We madeup after EA bomb and were very active sexually for us and I assumed all was well. Then about 2 months later I found them talking in a bar at 3 am and after we left she got home and I got "i cannot take this anymore, i need my own place, etc."
Thanks j love - this is what I'm afraid of. Today she's been texting me loads and even called me from work she hasn't done that for over a month. I've booked a restaurant for Saturday night & booked her into to get her hair done - she seems really happy - but I hope she's not faking it.
Have you read either of the DR or DB books? By your posts is doesn't seem like it as you are doing everything MWD says not to. You're bouncing all over the place.
Hi labug - I haven't read either of the books, but I was trying to follow lots of advice on here & what's happened since Sunday just exploded from a huge row. At the moment I'm just riding the wave and enjoying it (sort of). But I have my doubts that this will last and if their relationship is truly over.
Tonight was the first night of dancing that she's missed. I think she's really trying though as tonight she asked me to watch her try on some dresses and had nice underwear on & she made the moves - it was so nice for her to do that again - as it had been all 1 way lately. The dancing issue won't go away - but at least she's trying and I'm really happy with that.
I've decided to set myself some short term goals
1. Go back dancing tomorrow myself & enjoy it & give it 100%
2. Start running again at least 3 times a week
3. Get focused & stuck into my UNI work again give it 100%
4. Remembering to show appreciation for anything nice my wife does for me & to take any compliments with a smile & say thanks.
5. start counselling tomorrow (individual - just me)
6. To stop discussing anything about my insecurities,R or future.
7. to be more confident and show an interest in W's day to day.
8. Show her how much I trust her by letting her go back to dancing this week. (too hard to make her give this up, she loves it so much & we have a big circle of friends there - got to trust her or it hasn't got a chance).
** the first 3 will give me some GAL and something to focus on & talk to W about when we are talking
we are giving it ago - we are intimate, we talk, we kiss, cuddle, but it's still hard & awkward for both of us emotionally connecting alone after such detachment. This was proved last night when we went out for a meal - when we ran out of stuff to say to each other, the past got discussed & the evening went down hill. Gonna take smaller steps, coffee & chat - yes, Romantic meal - not yet - seems forced for both of us.
Do those steps sound like a good Short Term Plan for me?
I'm afraid you are in for more pain. Your W gave you remarkable sex before she told you about the OM. After she said they only kissed and "fooled around" (what does that mean if not sex?), then she gives you sex two more times.
Can you see what happened? No, b/c she has seduced you and your male hormones are so happy that you can't use your common sense. She gave you the best sex ever, to soften you up before the blow she was about to give you (and I don't mean blow as in bj).
She gives you only part of the truth, and then she goes back and you have sex two more times. You have admitted that it only now has begun to sink in about what she said.
I predict that you've had the last of great sex with her, and that she will get more colder and withdrawn from you.
She hasn't given you all the truth.
I predict that you've had the last of great sex with her, and that she will get more colder and withdrawn from you.
She hasn't given you all the truth.
Thanks for the advice Sandi, I think you may be right about all of what you said (sadly). I went to my counselling session today & they said that my W doesn't know what she wants and that I need more counselling to help me for my own well being. It was nice to have someone listen & to ask how I felt about some of this stuff, I think that these sessions will really help me - no matter what happens next.
If I get any good advice I'll share it on here.
Can you see what happened? No, b/c she has seduced you and your male hormones are so happy that you can't use your common sense. She gave you the best sex ever, to soften you up before the blow she was about to give you (and I don't mean blow as in bj).
Sandi2 that last part had me laughing - which is something I haven't done in ages. Thank you for that - needed a good laugh!!
I also loved that phrase - 'you and your male hormones' so going to use that one next time one of my friends p's me off!!
I don't want to get my hopes up too much, but things have been great this week. I went to my dancing class on Monday - got completely into it (danced all night) and got compliments from my dance teacher. When I got in my wife waited up for me to ask me if I'd had fun and what I'd learned this week. we went to bed and made love. Yesterday we practiced a bit of dancing for about 15 mins and we were chatting and having fun. Yesterday I also left my facebook signed in on the laptop & when I went to check the internet history (habit - do this 'cause D8 uses it alot) I noticed she'd checked the profile of one of my girl friends who I'd said was pretty ages ago. I think this is a good sign - plus she's sending text message regularly. Is my wife interested and into me again or am I just imagining / wishing it?
Sandi2 that last part had me laughing - which is something I haven't done in ages. Thank you for that - needed a good laugh!!
I also loved that phrase - 'you and your male hormones' so going to use that one next time one of my friends p's me off!!
Thanks! Laughter is good medicine.
I'm short on time this morning, but I'll try to find time tonight and reply to your other post.
Have a good day!
Thanks! Laughter is good medicine.
I'm short on time this morning, but I'll try to find time tonight and reply to your other post.
Have a good day!
Thanks Sandi - I'm hitting the UNI work hard today - speak to you soon :-)
Today is the 1st night W is going back dancing. It's hit a trigger with me today about the PA and I'm struggling to keep a lid on it, even though things have been much better this week. Do you just have days like this? I want to trust my wife again but this is really hard. Been trying to GAL went for a run this morning & been doing UNI work - but my mind is on the PA today & it is not healthy. Any advice to try and stop me thinking about my W with another man? I'm booked in for my 1st 1hr counselling session on Monday & it can't come quick enough!!
I'm afraid you are in for more pain.
She hasn't given you all the truth.
Sandi was right and I should have listened. Last night W could tell I wasn't happy and asked me about dancing and I said that I'd had a bad day thinking about it. Then she said that she had called the OM today and that she feels it is unresolved and she doesn't know how she feels about that PA. She said that she didn't sleep with him, but wanted to.
Our M W said that she knows that she doesn't want to try anymore as she can't see us getting passed this and that she doesn't want to hurt me anymore. She said that she'll help me get through the last 2 months at UNI (which I'm so behind - because of how I feel & the R), go on the holiday with the kids and me to Florida. But that it's over and she's so sorry.
I can't stop crying, I've never felt so low and so unloved and I don't know how I'm going to keep things together. I'm in a really bad place right now, please help me.
Bill...so sorry that you find yourself at this low point, but I think you knew that is was coming from what I am reading from your posts. My advise would be to get back to DB 101. You said that you have not read the divorce busting books. That is a good place to start
Review the 37 rules
Go back to your short term goals that you listed the other day
Continue to post here for support
Put the focus back on yourself..you can't and should not try to change your W decision..
Good luck
oopps....I see from the posts that you have not been given the 37 rules, maybe Cadet or Sandi can list them for you.
Also.....The DB techniques or for you and you alone. Do not share with your wife.
Bill...so sorry that you find yourself at this low point, but I think you knew that is was coming from what I am reading from your posts. My advise would be to get back to DB 101. You said that you have not read the divorce busting books. That is a good place to start
Review the 37 rules
Go back to your short term goals that you listed the other day
Continue to post here for support
Put the focus back on yourself..you can't and should not try to change your W decision..
Good luck
Thanks notsosunny for your advice, I've now stopped trying to change my wife's mind and accepted the decision that she doesn't want to be with me (right now- anyway). I need to focus on me, but she said a few things today that rung true about the problems we'd been having for a long time. About me being distant and not making her feel special and loved. She said that the OM makes her feel special and good about herself. As hard as it is I can't stop this PA from happening, she's emotionally attached to this guy and at the moment things are new and must feel good - compared to all the hurting and guilt we have.
Anyway - I've took your advice and just ordered DR and DB books - i need to educate myself as to how I'm gonna recover and make me feel happy again. I feel exhausted with it all and although I want to save my marriage - I think spending some quality me time is way overdue. So I'm going to keep to my list and add some new ones.
1. Enjoy my time with the children and have fun with them.
1. Focus on my dissertation less than 2 months to go
2. Keep up the running
4. Keep up the dancing (I'm hooked now too!!)
5. Read and re-read the DR & DB Books
6. Stick to the 37 rules
7. Post often
8. Keep the faith - that if it's meant to work out with my W it will do and if it doesn't, be there for the kids and be happy.
Easier said than done I know, but I need to start DB'g now!!
Last night I really did feel like I was starting to detach from my despair of the situation and thought only of what I needed to do. I feel like a load has been taken off my mind, because I wasn't worrying about W not wanting me or what she was doing. I watched a bit of crap TV had a beer and had a good night sleep. We still haven't formally seperated yet, but things are different and there are new unwritten boundaries. W wants to help me by transcribing interviews for my dissertation and me not have the added stress of moving out before all my work finishes. I think there is still a lot of love there from her side - but I know that the advice of detachment and stopping to try right now is the best advice I can take. I don't feel like I'm giving up on our M - I feel like I'm taking a new road, which with your help and support I know I can get there. I know I'll be there at the end of the road - and that's enough right now.
Bill - Your W's A is not over. Grocery gave you some good advice. Do not move out of your home. She is the one having the A. If she is unhappy, then she should move out. I'd suggest telling her exactly what Grocery suggested.
Secondly, you need to read Divorce Remedy. Specifically, the chapters on infidelity and the Last Resort Technique (LRT).
You need to begin applying the LRT immediately. Your W is obviously going through some confusion. She needs to realize what she stands to lose if she continues on her current path. Bottom line, stop pursuing her. She will begin to wonder what is going on, and she will ask. Your response should be that you will not be a part of a R with her as long as OM is in her life. Leave it at that.
GAL - start doing some stuff for yourself. The dancing is great, but it sounds like that is something that you did for your W... not for you. What is something that you would like to do for yourself?
Tough situation man. I've been there. There is no way to around the pain... you have to go through it.
Denver
You need to begin applying the LRT immediately. Your W is obviously going through some confusion. She needs to realize what she stands to lose if she continues on her current path. Bottom line, stop pursuing her.
Hi Denver thanks for the advice, I ordered the` Divorce Remedy Book & Divorce Busting one from Amazon last night, so I won't get them until Monday or Tuesday at the earliest. I'll let you know how my day's gone & you can let me know if I've done ok. So today it's 1 in the afternoon where I am as I write this. I've been up, keeping busy, cleaned the kitchen and spent time with the kids this morning whilst W had a lie in. Then I got showered had a shave and put on some decent clothes & aftershave & have took myself off to the library for the afternoon - GAL (sort of- it needs to be done). Tomorrow is Mother's day & my W invited me today to go out for the day with the kids tomorrow to a space attraction. I've said yes & I'm more than happy to spend time as a family which is so good for the kids right now. That's OK isn't it because I never initiated it right? I'm gonna look for some LRT threads so I don't screw this up before I get the DR book.
Denver, you speak a lot of sense and don't beat around the bush. Thanks for brightening up my day.
Oh by the way - the dancing - at first it was just to please my wife, but now I love it!! and I'm actually getting pretty good. I'm gonna make sure I add on to the list of GAL - though.
speak to you soon
Bill
I found some good advice on the going dark 101 thread from Sparky which I thought I'd share. It really got through to me...
***************************************************************
Going dark is the chance to work on you and to allow the spouse that left you to go through the journey they need to go through. If you start butting into that when they have made it clear that they don't want to be with you, then you come off as someone who is not honoring their request. You are short-circuiting the journey they have to go through to work out what is going on inside themselves.
There was obviously something very wrong that made them decide they wanted out in the first place. Oftentimes, it is probably the case that they are depressed and they have lost faith that anything can ever change. That patterns are set and are not reversible. It's a sign of depression to feel this kind of hopelessness.
One thing they knew for sure was that they did not want you in the picture. When people are depressed and confused about their identity like many people who request separations are, they become cognitively disorganized and impulsive in their choices. And when you are coming at them trying to make them stay with you, it just feels bad and like there's a pressure there to stay where they were.
And they don't want to stay where they were. They are wanting big changes. And if you stay the same as you always have been, and are unwilling to allow them to go on the journey that they need, or you are setting agendas about how they need to be, you just look like a controlling wench or [censored]. You become a representation of what they were trying to get away from.
As long as you keep pressuring them, you don't stand a chance. You will remain the embodiment of those bad feelings they are having. You will be something to avoid. You will make it very easy for them to continue to project or blame you for the bad feelings that reside inside of them.
If they are alone with those bad feelings still lingering inside, and you are nowhere in the vicinity, then perhaps they will begin to see that the pain they were feeling was really about something unhealed inside of them rather than something about you. You need to cut that link between bad feelings and you.
If you want there to ever be a future between you and your spouse, I believe you have to let your spouse take the journey that is rightfully theirs, even if they way they are communicating that to you [censored]. Even if it hurts like nothing else you've ever felt. If you love them, you have to let them go through that.
And you can't keep looking over to see if they are done yet. It's suffocating. Instead, this is your chance to learn new things. Walk around in your feelings and see what is unhealed in you that makes it so easy for you to feel crazy about this crappy situation in which you find yourself.
You have the gift of time now, and the focusing energy of pain. Don't feel all of this pain without getting your money's worth. Surrender to what is really happening. Face it head on. Summer in the MLC area says that you should stay dark UNLESS your spouse initiates a contact.
For me, there have been two main contacts. First, he called me several weeks ago, and we ended up talking for over an hour. Then, he told me that he wanted to meet with me to tell me some "news." At first, I did not meet with him, because I was not ready to feel more pain. I knew the news wasn't going to be good. But last week, I finally decided to recontact him and tell him that I was ready to meet to hear his news.
His news was that he was seeing the woman I had at first feared he was seeing. But I met when I was good and ready, and it was actually a really productive and authentic contact. I was ready to be calm and not plead and hear his news. And I think that even though he is with another woman, this contact was a good one, even though it was about painful stuff.
When I allow my husband to be the initiator, then he has to know that he wanted to see me. And from being dark, I, Sparky, have actually become a bit mysterious to my husband - which is hilarious, becase I'm the least mysterious person you will ever meet. And he was intrigued. And I liked it. And I'm going to keep doing this because I thing that not only is it "working," but I'm using all this time to grow as I never thought I would.
The worst thing that ever happened to me has been the best thing that ever happened to me. And even though I still feel a lot of pain, I mean that sincerely.
************* Thank you for sharing your story Sparky **********
Since you have not read DR, then you may not be familiar with all the terms. I've read posts from different people that misunderstood "Going Dark". If there are no children, and the H can move out and stay away from the WAW with no contact whatsoever....then that is "going dark".
If they are alone with those bad feelings still lingering inside, and you are nowhere in the vicinity, then perhaps they will begin to see that the pain they were feeling was really about something unhealed inside of them rather than something about you. You need to cut that link between bad feelings and you.
This is a good description of what the LBS hopes to accomplish by going dark. However, it is impossible to go dark living under the same roof and/or sharing children. To be dark means she never sees you and never has any contact from you.....period. You can't do that if you have small children.
Detaching and trying to stick to the 180's will be better for you right now. It is going to be very difficult living with her. It will take a lot of focus on your goals in order not to crash & burn. The biggest thing you can do right now is to get your eyes off
her and what
she's doing or not doing.
Your journey has just started. The worst is yet to come. You need to brace yourself for the ride by reading the stories here from other LBH's who discovered their W was having an affair.
Go on line and search for PEA's. This will inform you of what your W will continue to experience for several months (even if she stops the affair.)
Do not expect to see all of this resolved and back to normal in a short time.
The hardest thing for men is not doing something to
fix things. It's not even a matter of fixing. It's so much more involved.
I have read some stories here from men who were in your shoes, and the WAW would end the A and the H would think things were okay b/c the OM was out of the picture. But, even when OM is out, she has so much she has to go through. You both will. It's like the MR has a terrible cancer that is cut out, only to face all the harsh treatments in order to heal and survive what the cancer did.
Your M
can survive this. But it
will take a very long time of healing. It can happen! It can be good again. That is the encouragement I hope to leave with you.
Thanks Sandi, I really have come to terms with this not going to be a quick fix now. It is really hard doing the opposite of what you want to do & it's only been a day for me. I know what you mean about going dark not being the best thing for me - but there were some really good bits of advice in that post. I'm giving this DB'g a real go now. It really hurt me what she said when she was talking about the OM and I know that their relationship is more than likely going to carry on & evolve. I can't stop it, but I can stop thinking about it. I need to focus on my UNI work only got 7 weeks left & I'm so behind, but I need to get at least a 2:1 in my degree to get on my teaching course in September.
Thanks Sandi – I’ll feel better equipped once I’ve read the DR book particularly focusing on the Infidelity & LRT chapters. It’s nice to know that you’re looking out for me & giving me good advice.
Bill
Do not expect to see all of this resolved and back to normal in a short time.
The hardest thing for men is not doing something to fix things. It's not even a matter of fixing. It's so much more involved.
I have read some stories here from men who were in your shoes, and the WAW would end the A and the H would think things were okay b/c the OM was out of the picture. But, even when OM is out, she has so much she has to go through. You both will. It's like the MR has a terrible cancer that is cut out, only to face all the harsh treatments in order to heal and survive what the cancer did.
Your M can survive this. But it will take a very long time of healing. It can happen! It can be good again. That is the encouragement I hope to leave with you.
^^^^ So true.
I think that i'm starting to get a response from my detaching already. Last night one of Lou's friends asked her to go dancing to catch up on the steps she missed as her teachers are there on a Saturday night. I said why don't you go, it'll do you good. She said that she didn't feel like it and never went. Once the kids went to bed, I wasn't feeling to great really tired, so I said I was getting an early night and went to bed - had a great nights sleep - best sleep I've had in ages. It's mother's day, so the kids gave her all her stuff and cards and there was a card of me too, she squeezed my hand, with a tear in her eye and said thanks. I made breakfast in bed so the kids could give it to her and then went straight back downstairs. I'm really polite and not cold but not hanging around either. She mentions dancing again this morning saying that she might start going Saturday night instead 'cause it's not worth the hassle going on a Thursday. I just said ok, no discussion on my part. I'm not getting any hopes up, but I think it's positive and I'm gonna keep going.
Thanks everyone for listening and giving me good advice.
Happy Mother's day to all the mums on here :-)
I've had a great day today - took the kids to see my Mum this morning for a couple of hours - then met W at her Mum's with the kids and spent some time there. We promised the kids we would take them to spaceworld - which is like a big indoor play area with a cafe for parents. We where there for 2 and a half hours & me and the W got on great - we even made each other laugh a few times. The conversation wasn't the least bit awkward or one sided. There was absolutely no mention of R or anything like that. W went to bed shortly after kids went to bed, but before she went to bed carried on an earlier joke about one of her friends on FB and we were both laughing loads, when she went to bed we said good night to each other. I did feel a bit down after she went to bed, but didn't let it show. I'm detaching, not pursuing, but getting on great with my W again when we talk. It feels like we are friends again. I'm not gonna blow this by talking about anything to do with sitch, just gonna take this slowly. It's ironic that when we were trying the last couple of weeks there was so much pressure it was stifling us. Now that we are not trying to make R work (consciously on both parts) it feels so much easier to get along without any anxiety of upsetting each other(if that makes any sense).
If the penny ever drops with my W, that we are still best friends and that when we ML it is great and that we are so good together as a family, she'll realise what she's giving up on. I just hope that when she realises it, it's not too late and I feel the same way about my W. There is just no time frame on this or any guarantee that my WAW (Confused W) will ever change her mind. But there will always be hope and a place in my heart for my W regardless of what happens.
Got my 1st hour long Couselling session tomorrow, hope it goes well and that I get on with them.
I'll keep journalling, thanks for listening and for all the advice.
Bill
Hi there, just thought I'd leave an update from my Counselling session today.
It was really good for me to get off my chest a lot of the feelings I had inside of me & I think we made some good progress & got to one of the roots as to when my M started to break down. Back in 2004, me, W and D less than 1 at the time, were living in our first house W wasn't working & I was full time in the day time. We spent every night together and weekends as a family and were really close and happy. I wanted a bigger house and pushed for a move, which we did 12 months later and then we got into lots of financial trouble. Wife had to work part time evenings & I had to work during the day. We saw less and less of each other and when we did talk it was about stressful or unromantic things. This led to a breakdown in communication and subconciously a detachment on my part. Instead of dealing with our issues I ignored them - and my wife handled them badly and became controlling & dictative in conversations, so I just avoided them. It hasn't all been bad over the last 7 years, but things have never been so good during that year 2004. Now that I have an idea as to what started these events & when we were last genuinely happy it is something to reflect on for me personally. I'm not going to just blame myself, but I need to appreciate & understand fully my role in all of this mess, to move on either way.
It's a real start and with more counselling I hope to make more progress. Still waiting for DR & DB books, but trying to detach as much as possible whilst staying friendly & positive.
I am so sorry you are going through this situation. I'm glad you can see the positives in your R and in counseling. I hope things work out the best for you and your M.
Thanks Stephanie, I wish I wasn't going through this, just like the rest of us, but like you I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet.
I really can see the positives in our M and know it's worth saving. The one thing I can be sure about is not knowing how my W feels about anything at the minute. It is by far the hardest thing I have ever gone (going) through and will never take or be perceived to take anybody's love for granted again.
Keep listening to the advice on here from some really good people, keep journalling and keep the faith!!
The best thing for you to do is act as if you have accepted her decision and you are moving on without her. But here is the key point in doing so.....you must act as if you are are not carrying a touch for her. That's hard for a LBH, b/c he wants to say & do the things he should have been doing all this time. You have to act as if you will be happy with your life with or without her in it. Speaking as a former WAW, I believe it will get her attention if she thinks you no longer want her. You do not accomplish this by saying anything particularly, or doing anything except pulling completely back from her.
By showing that you are not interested in her for a wife, that means you are not angry, jealous, rude, or selfish. Hopefully, that which makes her female, will rise to the occasion.
By showing that you are not interested in her for a wife, that means you are not angry, jealous, rude, or selfish. Hopefully, that which makes her female, will rise to the occasion.
Hi Sandi
I've been tested today with my detaching by my W since my counselling session. She has been hounding me, wanting to know what has been said (Curiosity Overkill). I was polite on the phone & said that it was mainly about me and that I didn't feel like it was right discussing this over the phone. She carried this on via text messages. I said that the sessions were worthwhile, but she kept asking me if I wanted to talk about them in detail. So I said I'm happy to discuss them with you later, but that if we do discuss my counselling session, we both know where the conversation will probably end up and that it was totally her call. She replied saying , "OK then I'd rather not" so I replied, "Me too" then i got a , "fair enough" to which I replied, "Are you OK?" I got a "Yeah xx" back to which I replied, "Thanks babe xx".
Now I'm pretty sure I could've handled this a little better, but did I do that badly here, considering?
My WAW is due home shortly, re: above post from a woman's point of view. Would you be annoyed with your husband about the above conversation. Just trying to get a heads up before she comes home.
Any advice is appreciated.
OK I'll bite.
Be who you are and do what's right without worrying about whether I'm annoyed.
I don't know if you have a backbone or an opinion about discussing your counseling with her. You said not over the phone, which means yes - just not over the phone. Then you said yes but "we both know blah blah veiled threat" which means I'm saying yes but I mean no I'd rather not. Then you checked back to see if you had upset her.
I can't tell if you do or don't want to discuss your counseling session with her. If you do, why didn't you say yes with no buts. If you don't, which sounds more likely your real feeling but you were reluctant to say no to her, you should say unequivocally, "no, hon, it's private." Or something like that. Are you always this tentative with her?
You can still tell her no if you don't want to discuss your counseling with her. Or, you can tell her what subjects you hit, and change the subject. You control how deep you want to go and you have the power to stop talking at any time.
So - you asked if she was ok and she said yeah. That means yes, she's ok. what are you worried about when she comes home?
I believe the DB way is to be mysterious. Let her wonder and worry about losing YOU. Don't share your counseling session private information with her. The DB way is to avoid relationship talks, avoid temperature checks, avoid pursuing her. Can you avoid all this when she gets home? That's what I'd recommend.
I'd recommend being cheerful, have a smile on your face, and tell her your counseling is for you and so you're going to keep it private for now. Just MHO.
But the other part of it, your fear of her annoyance over something that would not be annoying to a normal rational person - what's that about? Can you appear less fearful of her emotions?
Wow Adinva, I wasn't expecting that, but I think you're right about a lot of stuff there. One of the problems I've found in our relationship has been standing my ground. I'be always been the one to say sorry 1st when we fight etc and I think you're right I need to stop worrying so much about how she feels and just be straight with her over this counselling. I don't think she'll mention it tonight but if she does i'll just say no.
Thanks adinva, I needed a woman to psychoanalyse my fear of confrontation and indecision when it comes to W. Probably one of the major reasons I ended up here.
Stop talking to her over the phone! Stop asking her if she's okay. Stop calling her babe! Do you not see how that is pursuing?
Don't discuss the counseling session.
Stop talking to her over the phone! Stop asking her if she's okay. Stop calling her babe! Do you not see how that is pursuing?
Don't discuss the counseling session.
Hi Sandi - I admit that I need to stop calling her babe, force of habit - I've been calling her this for 12 years. I never called her, but I didn't have to answer the phone though & will make a conscious effort to stop checking if she is ok in situations like that. I never wanted to discuss the counselling session - my wife was pursuing that curiosity on her part - but I should have been firm like avinda said.
I've just got home from dancing and I feel a bit flat now - last week my lesson I was on a high & really enjoyed it, but this week although good was bitter sweet & as I was leaving I felt an awful trigger of my W with OM. This is so hard - I'm not going to give up, but I've got so much hurt at the moment, I feel that my emotions are really screwing me up. I know I need to focus on me & I really am trying to. I keep asking myself the same question why do I even want to be someone who is doing this to me? I know the answer but the truth hurts.
Thanks Sandi - I really do appreciate your advice & just hope I can be strong enough to keep it together.
Hi Bill. I'm curious, if you weren't expecting what I said, what were you expecting in answer to your question?
How did things go when she got home?
Hi Bill. I'm curious, if you weren't expecting what I said, what were you expecting in answer to your question?
How did things go when she got home?
Oh no, I didn't mean it in a bad way. I was just shocked at how intuitive you were on me as a person & it freaked me out & reminded me that when it comes to psychology and reading between the lines, you ladies are so much better at it than men.
She was really cold and I could tell she was p**&@d with me. When I was leaving for my dancing I shouted bye to everyone as W was upstairs giving the kids a bath - (kids heard me & told me to have fun) she said nothing. At least she's curious about my counselling and what was said and although it hasn't been perfect, I feel that I have been detaching quite a lot - considering the 2nd bomb she dropped on Thursday night.
Right now, I need to grow a pair and to be like a terminator in my mission to detach, detach, detach!!
Hi Bill,
I can understand your situation a lot. My H and I call each other our pet names still, even if we are separated. We still do care about each other - despite talking about divorce. We are trying to remain respectful and caring (which is actually odd, I know!). We always had respectfulness and caring in our relationship so that is not our issue. Was it part of yours?
Hi Bill,
I can understand your situation a lot. My H and I call each other our pet names still, even if we are separated. We still do care about each other - despite talking about divorce. We are trying to remain respectful and caring (which is actually odd, I know!). We always had respectfulness and caring in our relationship so that is not our issue. Was it part of yours?
Well we've always cared for each other, but if I'm totally honest I'm the one who does stuff to show I care in simple ways. For example I'll be the one to make a hot drink, cook dinner, go to the store when we run out of stuff, ask if she needs tablets when she's sick. Stuff I never really thought about that I did for her without thinking, because I was happy to do it for her.
Our problem is communication, my wife never backs down in an argument (even when outrageously wrong). We've had a rough ride for about 6 years. We had a lot of financial issues which caused stress on our M and our working patterns meant we never seen that much of each other. So when we talked it was serious, depressing stuff and over time, we forgot how to be romantic and caring at the level we used to be at. We became more like best friends who had kids and made love less and less over time. My W really knocked my confidence over time, because I never stood up to her, because she is so stubborn. This made me withdrawn & detached & pushed her away really. But I never stopped loving her, I just figured that once all my studies had finished Next May, we would have a better WLB (work life balance) and be happier. I ignored the present situation & now I'm paying the ultimate price.
Does my SITCH have any other similarities with yours YC?
Stop talking to her over the phone! Stop asking her if she's okay. Stop calling her babe! Do you not see how that is pursuing?
Don't discuss the counseling session.
^^^ Yup
Journal entry
Well after a frosty morning where W said very little, apart from 'don't put my good underwear in the dryer it's ruined'. I thought to myself, so what! But didn't rise to it and walked away. Then later on, w texts me to ask what days over the Easter holidays would you like me to book off so you can do work on your degree. I tell her the dates, she books 2 days holiday to help me out and let me know. I thank her for this (nothing ott) and wished her luck for her doctors appointment later today.
I just can't figure out how someone can be so thoughtful and caring in some ways and so hurtful in other ways. I'm taking it for the positive I see it to be and saying to myself it's because she still cares and not just out of guilt.
Amazon are not my friends right now still no DR or DB books have arrived :-(
Hi Labug
Thanks for posting that link - just finished reading the 1st chapter of DR. So much of it makes sense in how I can relate to my own marraige problems.
I'm really starting to believe that how we communicate & resolve arguments is genuinely the root cause and catalyst for all the problems our M has today. We've never addressed them and just carried on with more of the same. I think the biggest admission for me to come out of my counselling was that I was unhappy with M as well, but not so unhappy that I wanted out or to leave.
I'm pretty sure that my W's PA is still ongoing & I honestly question if she tells me that she has slept with him, whether I would even want to try & save our M. Does that make me a bad person or selfish? The thought of another man with my wife makes me want to puke and I go all anxious and inward. I don't think I could handle it. I'm so scared that if she does sleep with him, that it'll be me filing for a D. This is the last thing I want, it's not my pride that I'm worried about, it's about my love for her dying.
I thought I was doing good today, but this is so hard. I'm a mess again. Need to pull myself together before she comes home from dancing later.
I know it's asking a lot, but is there anyone on here who has been cheated on PA and managed to get their M back on track? I could really use some motivation right now.
I really need to get a grip on my feelings, I don't want to blow my detaching & discuss anything with W. I understand that my W will do whatever she is going to do right now & in her eyes we are no longer together. I just worry that the damage is going to be too much for me to overcome on my own.
I need to remember the bigger picture, but I'm really struggling tonight.
Yes there are many. The most recent is Denver's thread. Check it out.
Thanks Mr Bond - I'll read Denver's thread.
Look under Another Divorce Busted forum.
Thank you Sandi. I will check that forum out now. I'm determined not to blow my detaching, just need some inspiration to get through tonight.
Wow, some of the success stories posted on here are incredible. I can't believe how strong some people have become in fighting for their M and their own happiness. Started reading Denver's thread & can see that he had to go through a lot of pain, soul searching and reflection to get to where he's at today. I'll make a point to read his threads when I get down & some of the another divorce busted stories for inspiration. Thank you Sandi, Mr Bond & Denver for getting me through last night - I really needed it.
Mini Journal - this morning
I felt like my W is not as cold as she's cracking out to be, her handbag was open on the table and there was quite a bit of tissue scrunched up that looked like she had been crying & this morning she had been crying when she was getting ready for work. Not going to read to much into it, but somethings upset her. I didn't want to ask - thought it would be best to let her come to me if she wanted to talk, plus I'm detaching (trying). Never used babe responding to any text messages yesterday ( Sandi ;-)).
(I had to keep editing it out LOL)
I really want to read the DR book after reading the 1st chapter - fingers crossed it arrives today.
Bill
There are others that I found highly motivating, inspirational, and educational... Jack3beans, Truegritter to name a couple that come immediately to mind.
Denver
Thanks Denver, I really appreciate your help and support and I'm so happy for you that your hard work is paying off and how much happier you are now compared to your earlier threads.
I seem to be on here a lot lately, because besides the counselling and 1 good friend, I don't really feel comfortable discussing my M problems with friends and I realise now what a bad idea confiding in my sister and MIL was. By the way her Mother has respected my wishes and not confronted her on what's going on. I feel terrible that I told her and know that it's going to be another obstacle when her Mum does confront her.
Anyway, I will be here quite a lot. Got my next Counselling session on Tuesday, they really are helping me get to the bottom of my issues.
Thanks again Denver, i'll be sure to check out those threads you recommended.
Bill
Hey Breakdown Bill, I'm just wondering if you are having your counselling via DB?
Thanks Denver, I really appreciate your help and support and I'm so happy for you that your hard work is paying off and how much happier you are now compared to your earlier threads.
I seem to be on here a lot lately, because besides the counselling and 1 good friend, I don't really feel comfortable discussing my M problems with friends and I realise now what a bad idea confiding in my sister and MIL was. By the way her Mother has respected my wishes and not confronted her on what's going on. I feel terrible that I told her and know that it's going to be another obstacle when her Mum does confront her.
Anyway, I will be here quite a lot. Got my next Counselling session on Tuesday, they really are helping me get to the bottom of my issues.
Thanks again Denver, i'll be sure to check out those threads you recommended.
Bill
Thanks BDB. I am happier, but not yet content. I still have a ways to go with my sitch. In the early stages people tell you that this is going to take time, but you never realize just how much time it may take. Take it a day at a time, hell, a second at a time if you have to in the beginning.
Denver
Hey Breakdown Bill, I'm just wondering if you are having your counselling via DB?
Hi Norfolk
I wish I could afford the counselling through DB. I'm getting free counselling from the University that I go to. It's really good because they just let you talk and talk about stuff & then start helping you connect the dots.
I notice that you haven't posted your sitch (situation) yet. I had a good look before I posted mine, but I'm so glad I shared my story (ongoing) and the advice I am getting keeps me going. When you're ready people will listen and help you.
Take care
Bill
[/quote]
Thanks BDB. I am happier, but not yet content. I still have a ways to go with my sitch. In the early stages people tell you that this is going to take time, but you never realize just how much time it may take. Take it a day at a time, hell, a second at a time if you have to in the beginning.
Denver [/quote]
I suppose when you think about things there is no point in rushing anything with our R's, before the bomb I know that I wasn't in a hurry to change anything, so I can't rush change now. The OM isn't going to stop me working on myself, but whilst he is on the scene I don't think my W will face up to her own issues & just keep blaming me.
I love my W, she really is my BF and I miss that so much. I'm wondering how effective my detaching is going to be, seeing as she is doing a natural 180 and detaching herself. But I'm gonna stick to it, because it's the best chance I've got right now. But I did start thinking about what changed her mind to reconsider giving our R another go (temporarily anyway)- when I confronted her & put her in her place in an argument- which was a 180 for me in our R as I normally avoid confrontation. I'll have to explore that one in my next counselling session.
Today I've had a good day - doing UNI work, saw some old friends I used to volunteer with at a school and had fun. Oh & finally the DR book arrived today - nearly finished chapter 2 & read most of chapter 10 (infidelity). I love the book already & I'm focused on the long road ahead.
Journal entry
Hey just wanted to check if it's a good or normal reaction for your WAS to be sad and crying a lot when you are detaching & looking desperate for me to ask her if she is ok?
Does this mean she's starting to notice or question her decision(s)?
I've been spending even more quality time with the kids lately than normal (I was hard on myself - because I am a good Dad anyway) and their love and affection has really helped me detaching.
Anyway got a full day planned ahead - more dissertation interviews & a lecture to go to later @ UNI. Hope people are having a good day & I'll check in later.
Bill
Hey Bill, I am reconciled now to hubby. I may be able to help you but I will need to talk to Virginia. Could you afford to call the USA if I can work this out?
Hey just wanted to check if it's a good or normal reaction for your WAS to be sad and crying a lot when you are detaching & looking desperate for me to ask her if she is ok?
Does this mean she's starting to notice or question her decision(s)?
Who knows? Don't try to mind read. It could literally be anything that is causing her to be sad and cry. All you can do is continue to do what you are doing. You've got to let her figure some things out on her own.
Hi Denver, yeah you're right I shouldn't try and mind read, it'll get me in trouble. I've noticed my W has stopped texting altogether now and since I was only responding to her messages, she must have gotten fed up with that anyway, since I started to detach.
Oh well all part of the DB'g dance I suppose.
Had a good day @ UNI and actually got some work done today. Gonna read some more of the DR book later and write my goals from chapter 3.
Bill
Oh man, the W! she is in a foul mood with me tonight. Really short and obvious about how she's feeling towards me, like she wants me to bite and have a fight. We normally have a Friday treat after school when we take the kids to mcdonalds or someplace. I just got told we're going to carols (family friend) house instead and no hint of an invite. Last night she let our D sleep in our bed with her so I would be in her bed, really think she's gonna do the same tonight (using our kids - pretty low). Is this just her way of trying to make me hate her, so i'll want to move out? I'll read some more threads, but is this a common thing from a waw when you are separated but living together? Ah... Penny just dropped it's Thursday and she hasn't gone dancing and gone to bed early.
Well we'll see what tomorrow brings I guess.
Journalling
Had a tough morning - thinking about M - but bounced back & noone saw me down or upset (which is good).
I thought I would try & shake things up a bit and go wild with the cleaning. Tidied all downstairs & hoovered, put washing away, washing on etc & did something I've never done since we've been together cleaned the BATHROOM. I thought well it'll just keep my W curious and it's a 180 for me. Then I noticed she's no longer wearing her engagement or wedding rings (not a good sign).
When W came home early she was very angry & short - asked her how her day was, got a firm OK - so I pulled back. 15 mins of silence W- you having a drink - me - no thanks I'm good gotta bottle of water.
W decided she was taking the kids to a friends house tonight (no invite for me)not worth an argument although I would usually go & have fun there. When she was leaving I just asked if she was going straight there from School (only to gage if I'd see the kids for a bit)- I got - Yeah, why are you asking me? Me - just checking - pulled back. W leaves and slams the door - huffing
Is this what they call the resentment stage - where I am seen as the total cause and reason they feel bad and must remain a target until told otherwise.
I haven't rose to any of the bait, but I'm just wondering how long it'll be before she snaps - any advice on how to handle all this bad feeling? (given my sitch - I feel like a sitting duck)
Bill
Hi Bill - if you were wondering if you'd see the kids why didn't you say that was why? Why'd you say "just checking"? Just checking would be the more annoying reason over the actual truth, could be why she huffed and slammed the door.
Hi again Bill, I know this isn't easy but you have to just totally disengage & concern yourself with what you are doing. If your W was already obviously angry/short with you when she got home then anything you do, include sit in the same room or breathe near her! My H did this to me & I just removed myself to another part of the house or went out. Did such odd things as going out for dinner by myself so I didn't seem to be "waiting" or getting on his nerves.
Also, I think her anger is transfering/externalisation - or it could be a way of rationalising her behaviour. If she demonises you anything goes so to speak re: treatment of you. To be fair, what is going on in her world is in some part irrelevant to your life right now. Hang in there, it [censored] badly but just keep reading Michelle's book & anything else that helps. What I did was start to be a little unpredictable, I'd go out & stay out late without explanation. I had that fear that it'd mean he'd return the favour but he was already having a PA so hell, what could I lose?! One other thing, you have to get out there & do stuff that pleases you, even if it's just a walk. You have to GAL but although actions speak louder than words it has to be authentic. They have to see you "through different eyes".
Oh & Bill I re-read your kind words re my sitch. It isn't that I won't post it I just haven't worked out how to do it! So for you my sitch:
Me: 41 H: 40
M: 2+ yrs T: 17+ yrs
No kids just Dog!
Bomb: ILYBNILWY & wanted a divorce 11/15/2011
Confirmed EA: 11/24/2011
Reconciled: 12/16/2011
Confirmed PA: 01/08/2012
Just taking it all one day at a time!
In some ways although this has been the most excruciatingly painful experience of my life, I have learnt so much & gained so much. I was lucky because I found Michelle's website & books before I found out about his affair.
Bill, does she know why you are doing what you are doing? Have you told her that you will not be a part of a marriage that has third parties involved? That she needs to cut off contact with OM?
Personally, if not, I would have that convo so that it is clear that your recent behavior is not just a temper tantrum. I'm not saying it is, but you don't want it perceived that way by your W.
IMO, you need to have ONE conversation with her letting her know what your boundaries are.
Denver
Hi Bill - if you were wondering if you'd see the kids why didn't you say that was why? Why'd you say "just checking"? Just checking would be the more annoying reason over the actual truth, could be why she huffed and slammed the door.
You're probably right, I've been struggling to keep my composure when my W gets into a confrontation with me. I find it hard to think sometimes when she puts me on the spot. I think it's psychological, I'm gonna have to work on this. I don't know why she has this effect on me, nobody else does.
Oh well, i'll keep trying, thanks Adinva, keep giving me these reality checks please, I need them LOL :-)
Bill, does she know why you are doing what you are doing? Have you told her that you will not be a part of a marriage that has third parties involved? That she needs to cut off contact with OM?
Personally, if not, I would have that convo so that it is clear that your recent behavior is not just a temper tantrum. I'm not saying it is, but you don't want it perceived that way by your W.
IMO, you need to have ONE conversation with her letting her know what your boundaries are.
Denver
Hi Denver
The last conversation about our M was last Thursday and my W said she was done and that she's not trying anymore. She added that when my course is finished at the begining of May, we'll sort out the seperation. I'm a bit wary of bringing the conversation up again as she has pretty much said it's over between us. So I don't know if that conversation will achieve anything for me besides push her away even further (if that's even possible).
I can see the logic, but I don't know if it's the right thing to do, I don't exactly have much leverage and my detaching has done nothing but hack her off so far.
Do you still think it's wise to have that conversation?
I know it would be a backslide from detaching, but I really feel like I should clear the air with my W. Maybe say that I've been giving her space since Thursday and that I have been coming to terms with what she wants, but that there is no reason why we can't get along and be nice to each other. That this is not good for either of us.
Is that pursuing? I don't feel like talking about our R right now anyway, because it wouldn't acheive anything. I don't want to quiz her over the OM and I don't want to ruin any hope of us reconciling in the future.
I'm in a bit of a dilema, because the atmosphere in this house is starting to stink and I think I'm just making my W resent me & that her decision is being vindicated each day we are interacting like this.
Any thoughts on this and my previous post?
Don't have the conversation that I suggested. I would suggest that you continue to lovingly detach. Need to continue GALing. Try doing some new things. Pick up a new hobby. Go out. Go buy yourself some new clothes. Get a new haircut. Try to have a positive attitude and be happy when you are around her. If you are working on any 180's, continue to do so.
But don't R talk, don't pursue, and don't pressure.
My guess is that you will see a negative reaction from your W. Sounds like you already may be seeing that. What she needs to see is you moving on with your life and being happy.
Nothing can happen as long as she is infatuated with OM and he is in the picture. So this is going to take A LOT of patience on your part... and probably a lot of time.
Listen, this is hard stuff. I was successful with some of it, and not so much on the rest. I believe in it though. And I have seen the most positive progress during the times that I have done these things.
Denver
Thanks Denver
I think I'm starting to get the hang of this now, but I just need the guidance from people like yourself who are further along their journey's giving me encouragement and good advice. I didn't have that conversation and I'm just going to keep trying harder to stay more positive around her. It's really hard to know what the best thing to do is in some situations, sometimes your conscience gets the better of you & tempts you from breaking some of Sandi's 37 rules.
I've got nothing left to lose, so I may as well stay on track detaching, i like your view - lovingly detach (like loving from a distance). I've been finding it really hard to focus on my UNI work lately but it's now proving to be a welcome distraction & a different pressure.
Thanks for the good GAL advice, I'll have to try harder on that front. I'm taking the kids swimming in the morning - so that'll be the highlight for me this weekend. Take care Denver & I hope you have fun as well this weekend.
Cheers Bill
Thanks Norfolk
I only just got your posts because of the moderation delays so apologies on that front. Yeah, I'm working on the GAL side of things, and I need to make more of an effort there are things I can do that don't cost a lot. I've got 7 weeks left @ UNI & TBH I have just about got enough time to finish everything as I've fallen behind with what has gone on in my sitch. I had a blast this morning swimming with my main man S6 and that has left me in a good mood. I'm just waiting for W to come back so I can go out to the library for a bit, before she goes out tonight. I'm not working right now, so that is an issue too. But to be fair my W spent £10k from my redundancy on home improvements & a holiday to Florida, so if that makes me a sponge for not working for 3 months I can live with that. My course finishes on May 8th after which I'll be looking for full time temping work until my PGCE starts in Sept.
I'm working on some other 180's being more decisive. For example being more assertive, i.e I'm going, I'm doing. I'm not taking any more of her moods. I feel a bit like Brett in DR story around the 180 part. Well that's about to change, no more cups of tea, (her) washing and (excessive - ie me doing it all) cleaning gonna get done by me.
Thanks Norfolk for posting bits about your sitch, there's bound to be a similar thread on here that you can relate to - the DR book is great - loving the advice I'm getting from it :-)
Sounds like you're moving in a good direction. Sticking to the 37 rules is tough. Hard to always look happy etc when your heart is broken, I know.
Hey Bill, glad you got my posts eventually, I understand why they have moderate them but it can be frustrating. I hope you got one they sent to you as a PM hopefully? If you can't make use of the sessions please can you let me know so I can donate them to anyone they feel would benefit? I saw your initial posts on here & felt I had to register & see if I could help, especially as we are both in Blighty!
My sitch is now pretty brilliant, I feel like there is some joy in my life after a long time. That said, I will never forgot it & I take nothing for granted, but the stuff I used to think was important just isn't any more!! Thankfully for us the moment my H realised I was done being understanding & he had to take responsibility for what he was doing he said it was like he "woke up". I had some DB counselling with Laurie which really helped me, I truly could have talked to her for hours, what a wonderful, compassionate, sincere lady. I was only going through this for a few weeks, but it felt like years. There are some incredible people out there who deal with this "limbo" for literally years. I respect them so much.
What I found helped was reading the book, looking on here, talking to two trusted, loyal, friends & GAL. It's almost like you are living some sort of emotional experiment. I don't know about you but I couldn't eat, sleep, or concentrate but I forced myself to do what I thought would work. As much as you may look at your W now as if she is a stranger, don't forget you do know her intimately. Go with your instincts, mine served me pretty well for the most part.
Also one thing that really helped me was exercising. Doing a really tough, punishing workout was strangely cleansing. I read a lot of stuff about M's & R's when going through this & one guy wrote something along the lines of "feelings come & go, we cannot become a slave to them" - that really resonated with me. When all said & done you will look back at this time & realise it made you better, stronger & far more self sufficient. Whatever happens I believe you have done the right thing by seeking to stay in your marriage. Keep on trucking buddy, I'm not religious but will be sending you good vibes up to Liverpool.
I thought I was doing great with my GAL - had a blast yesterday with my S - went swimming & the park. Today I got up early and went for a run & then boom - I totally wasn't expecting my wife to get into a R conversation - I blew it!!
It started off with a conversation about how I only talk about myself - to which I stupidly replied, 'I'm just trying to make conversation - when I ask you about how your day was or if you had fun anywhere I just get 'Yeah'.
Well this escalated into a stupid argument, I said some things I wish I hadn't like - 'I hate the man I've turned into - I wished I had stood up to you in arguments & not always been the 1st to back down & not let you take the drivers seat - I qualified this by saying that it sounds like I'm blaming you - but I'm not - I'm blaming myself for how I reacted'. I said I'd been trying really hard to just give you space and to just try & be positive & get on with my life instead of moping around, doing loads of housework & that nothing is ever good enough.
By this point I was a complete mess, She'd said something about wanting it to be over, then I had a hissy fit & said I hated my life & started punching myself in the face (WTF!!!) I calmed down after some tears & did end up having a clear the air conversation with my W - but any chances I had of reconciling without a formal separation are completely redundant.
I was an idiot!! (So angry with myself for not walking away)
I've had to take the line of we need support each other and be friends. But this is a setback I don't think she'll forgive me for.
While I was detaching & not texting - I forgot to ask her how her doctor's appointment went, so she's been majorly annoyed with me since Tuesday & it came to a head today.
She wants to discuss how we are going to address this separation / Divorce & that she doesn't feel anything for me in that way anymore.
I'm absolutely besides myself - I'm such an idiot for not walking away.
I think I'm screwed & need to just accept this now
Oh great, now she doesn't want to go on our family holiday to Florida - could this day get any worse?
letting me know by text message - why am I even bothered she obviously couldn't care less about me.
I wish I would stop crying, I thought I'd hit rock bottom 2 weeks ago - right back there with bells on it.
She just apologised for being insensitive, wish I could stay mad at her & just detach.
I think I need to be on my own, this is no good for me, feeling like this every other day.
Hi Bill - so sorry to hear about this - BUT, it does happen. Do not beat yourself up. We all slip at times. So, just get up, dust yourself off and 'start' all over again.
Much of what you said to your W, are things my H has said to me. He wish he had stood up to me more, and not given in so easily - hence he sees me now as controlling the R. Again, I never saw it that way - but I respect his perspective. Do you think your W sees you as a wuss? I never saw my H as a wuss. He thinks of himself that way - not me. However, he did clearly lose some self-esteem just for the sake of keeping the peace. I am very sad about this and wish he would have been more vocal in his own needs. I wish I had been more relaxed too and more trusting.
It does come down to trust I found at the end of the day.
So - I would imagine that you would impress her quite a bit if you stood your ground - in many areas of your life. I was getting pretty tired of having to hold the boundaries of the R together for the two of us. I admit I needed a break in that department - which is giving me some peace these days. I too wished my H stood his ground much more in his own life with his friends, colleagues, clients - and the biggest of all - his mother!! I would have had profound respect for him and support of him - and would have had incredible admiration for him. I do have admiration for him, but I would have had even more admiration. Most importantly, I would have trusted him a great deal more. Consequently, I would have been far more relaxed and at ease - which is what he always wanted as well. ANYWAY!
So, back to you - stand your ground. Maybe that is your 180 where your W is concerned. She might kick up a fuss at the beginning, but she will get used to it if you are consistent. However, all be sure to listen to her and let her have her own life as well. After that, who knows - you might inspire the admiration you BOTH require
Ugh, sorry to hear that you've had a bad weekend Bill.
If you haven't already, you need to take a deep breath and regroup.
IMO, and this is JUST my opinion Bill, but it sounds to me like your W is emotionally wrapped up with OM. Most definitely an EA and most likely a PA as well. From experience, the EA part of things is worse than the PA... at least in regards to your chances of reconciliation.
I'm not saying that reconciliation can't happen, but as long as she is emotionally attached to OM, you are not going to get anywhere. This has been, by far, the most difficult obstacle in my situation.
You're going to need to decide whether or not you want to wait this out Bill. Most affairs do not last. That's what the statistics say... so I hear anyway. I've heard that the average amount of time it takes for an affair to end is 6 months. I can't say that is true in my sitch, but it was only about a month before serious cracks began to show. I think that had I handled things just a bit differently, I could have cut down the amount of time that it has taken. But that is a different story.
It's the emotional attachment that you need to be most concerned about. OM is providing something for your W that you have not been providing. Or, at least that is generally the case. Take some time and think about that. What is it that this guy is giving her that she has not been receiving from you?
If and when the time ever arises, you are going to need to be prepared to begin giving that to her. I don't think that now is the time.
Have you read the chapter in DR about the Last Resort Technique (LRT)? If not, I'd suggest skipping the rest and going straight to this. I'd suggest that you begin LRT now.
I know that you are disappointed that your W does not want to go on the family vacation. But do you really want to go with this person as things stand now? I'd suggest telling her that she is right, that she shouldn't go. But that you are going to go.
You're going to need to detach big time now.
As for her asking for divorce goes? Well, I guess it depends on what you decide about waiting things out. If you want to save your marriage, then, IMO, you need to buy as much time as possible. So, don't bring this back up. If and when she does, I'd suggest telling her something like what I told my W when she brought up the D word:
"W, I've told you before that I still love u and still think that we can have a great life together as both a couple and a family. I have not changed my mind on that. But I understand that you are not happy, that u don't feel happy or complete inside. U need to do what will make u happy. By my side, we can be partners and will share everything and we would do anything to help one another. But that's only if we continue as a team. but I won't stand in your way, but also won't help u leave this marriage or our family. I hope that u do find happiness u r looking for. go do what u need to do. You know where I will be."
As for what I mean when I say "lovingly detach"? When I asked what this meant, the best definition that I got came from Jack3Beans. He said (I fixed his spelling errors - You're welcome Jack!):
"Lovingly detach...Pretty word that 'lovingly'. Beats angsty I suppose. To me detach means to not get drawn into their drama, not allow yourself to react to their bad actions either directly toward or in directly. Lovingly, I suppose means... If you child was throwing a tantrum for no reason, you'd ignore them (possibly), but be around and comfort them later when their tantrum was over."
I feel like I'm all over the board with what I'm telling you Bill and not being as clear as I'd like. Part of the problem is that you are still in the same home as your W, and I was not. It was easier for me to detach (not saying that it was easy or that I was all that successful). And it was easier for me to go dark on my W when I needed to. I would suggest that as well, but it is not going to be easy with her in the same home as you. So mainly, you need to stop engaging her in conversation, and when she engages, be polite, but don't get drawn in. I actually think that not asking her about her doctor's appointment was good (unless it was a life threatening thing of course). Stay away from R talk at all costs right now. Be a good dad, GAL as much as you can, especially away from home if you can. Detach, detach, detach... try to have a positive mental attitude... and if you can't, fake it til you make it. She needs to see that you are a positive thinking person and that you are upbeat, even if things are cr*ppy for you right now. No one wants to be around a depressed person. If you need to cry or be upset, go for a drive, or go for a walk. Don't do it in front of her. No more temper tantrums in front of her. you are right, they are damaging, and definitely not what you want to be doing.
Go read the chapter on LRT and come up with a plan as to how you are going to implement it. Set a time frame on which you are going to stick with your plan, say 2 weeks, and then reassess.
You need a plan, a strategy, and then you need to stick to it.
Denver
Much of what you said to your W, are things my H has said to me. He wish he had stood up to me more, and not given in so easily - hence he sees me now as controlling the R. Again, I never saw it that way - but I respect his perspective. Do you think your W sees you as a wuss? I never saw my H as a wuss. He thinks of himself that way - not me.
However, he did clearly lose some self-esteem just for the sake of keeping the peace.
So, back to you -
stand your ground. Maybe that is your 180 where your W is concerned. She might kick up a fuss at the beginning, but she will get used to it if you are consistent. However, all be sure to listen to her and let her have her own life as well. After that, who knows - you might inspire the admiration you BOTH require
Hi YC
Thanks for your reply, what you were saying about how your husband felt, is exactly how I felt. When you have in the back of your mind that you know if you get into an argument or disagreement about something, that your partner will never back down it really knocks your confidence. It stops you from being the person you are out of fear of confrontation, so you stop being spontaneous and question what you do, and before you know it when there was an opportunity to do something it passes. When this is mirrored with your W's taking charge & planning all your time together, sandwiched with a resentment for this & you avoid conflict when they are upset. Well you get the picture it's a cycle that stops a man, from being a boy. What I mean by that is that it kills your sense for adventure and de-motivates you in a way you wouldn't believe. The sad thing is that because guys don't about their feelings with other guys we just accept our lot & carry on in ignorance.
Although yesterday was awful it ended well. (I think). My W apologised for sending the text and said that she really wants to still go, but just felt bad that I'd paid for the entire holiday & thought I might not want her there. I was really upset about this, so she picked me up from the library @ UNI with the kids. We had a good talk, we did get onto the subject about separation & it did look like it was going to turn nasty at one point, but I backed off and we talked about what we wanted from a Relationship & agreed that we wanted the same things.
We were friends again & when we went to bed. I turned ro my W and said, 'You know what's rubbish about these arguments?' my W says, 'What?' I said , 'no make up sex' she laughed and said, 'I'm so horny but it's wrong' and we kissed and did have that make up sex, that wasn't really make up sex. No because I initiated this, this was a 180 in terms of initiating this & my W loved that. So I feel that I've refreshed my W's memory as to how things could be.
Anyway, I think we cleared the air about a load of issues and I said to her that I wanted to keep working on myself and explained that I was liking how I'd been feeling, by trying new things & that I loved my new outlook on life. My W said that she could see a dramatic improvement in the way I do things, how I am with the kids and that she is really proud of me.
There were many positives & negatives to come out of the day. It is a rollercoaster, but I honestly think that detachment is not for me if we are living in the same house. I will probably agree to a temporary separation in May, if my W still feels the same way.
I know I broke a lot of rules, but honestly detaching whilst living in the same house was not working & I feel I was right to stop. I honestly feel that if my W is happy & can see the changes in me prior to any possible separation, she will realise what she is missing.
I'm going to keep working on my goals for me and spend my time better.
Thank you YC for your post, that really helped me get a perspective on my feelings. We even discussed OM & my W said that she hadn't been in contact with him for over a fortnight & that it is over. She did say that she is going to carry on dancing with him and be friends with him. I said that I can totally understand the dancing and that I trust you. I said that I don't control you or any of your decisions, and that she knew how I feel about her.
I am hoping that whatever happens over the next few months we continue to get closer & that our holiday puts our R in a different light.
These are hopes, not expectations which are low - but there are positives & signs that this can still work.
Bill
Take some time and think about that. What is it that this guy is giving her that she has not been receiving from you? - He made her feel like an attractive, fun to be around woman and desired her and openly flirted with her.
For me, it will mean being more creative with my compliments on how she looks, making her feel confident, sexy and wanted. Being there to listen to her thoughts, feelings and events and reacting to her in a positive way.
Initiating more physical contact & flirting - being more spontaneous, being more affectionate in public.
standing my ground on what I believe in - and ideally working with my wife to compromise how we resolve our differences & always make up affectionately.
Have you read the chapter in DR about the Last Resort Technique (LRT)? Yes, I've read That thanks Denver and a lot of it is hard to put in place living under the same roof - hence yesterday's episode. But I'm continuing to work on myself & trying to listen more & more to what my W wants.
I know that you are disappointed that your W does not want to go on the family vacation. But do you really want to go with this person as things stand now? I'd suggest telling her that she is right, that she shouldn't go. But that you are going to go. - I 100% want her there for the kids - they are only 6 and 8 - 2 weeks without their mum on a holiday of a lifetime is just plain wrong. Even if we fake it, the kids come first - on that holiday & in general.
You're going to need to detach big time now.
As for her asking for divorce goes? Well, I guess it depends on what you decide about waiting things out. If you want to save your marriage, then, IMO, you need to buy as much time as possible. So, don't bring this back up. If and when she does, I'd suggest telling her something like what I told my W when she brought up the D word: To be fair, she isn't ready for that & we discussed that last night - I think she does just need space & if she still wants a separation, come the 8th of May - I will move out for a trial separation - and we can just keep an open dialogue on how we both feel if things change. I can't move out at the moment - not working & too much stress with UNI - couldn't deal with the kids reaction on top of all that as well right now.
"W, I've told you before that I still love u and still think that we can have a great life together as both a couple and a family. I have not changed my mind on that. But I understand that you are not happy, that u don't feel happy or complete inside. U need to do what will make u happy. By my side, we can be partners and will share everything and we would do anything to help one another. But that's only if we continue as a team. but I won't stand in your way, but also won't help u leave this marriage or our family. I hope that u do find happiness u r looking for. go do what u need to do. You know where I will be." - Good Advice & well said
As for what I mean when I say "lovingly detach"? When I asked what this meant, the best definition that I got came from Jack3Beans. He said (I fixed his spelling errors - You're welcome Jack!):
"Lovingly detach...Pretty word that 'lovingly'. Beats angsty I suppose. To me detach means to not get drawn into their drama, not allow yourself to react to their bad actions either directly toward or in directly. Lovingly, I suppose means... If you child was throwing a tantrum for no reason, you'd ignore them (possibly), but be around and comfort them later when their tantrum was over." - totally get the definition of lovingly detach now - Thanks Denver / Jack
I feel like I'm all over the board with what I'm telling you Bill and not being as clear as I'd like. Part of the problem is that you are still in the same home as your W, and I was not. It was easier for me to detach (not saying that it was easy or that I was all that successful). And it was easier for me to go dark on my W when I needed to. I would suggest that as well, but it is not going to be easy with her in the same home as you. So mainly, you need to stop engaging her in conversation, and when she engages, be polite, but don't get drawn in. I actually think that not asking her about her doctor's appointment was good (unless it was a life threatening thing of course). Stay away from R talk at all costs right now. Be a good dad, GAL as much as you can, especially away from home if you can. Detach, detach, detach... try to have a positive mental attitude... and if you can't, fake it til you make it. She needs to see that you are a positive thinking person and that you are upbeat, even if things are cr*ppy for you right now. No one wants to be around a depressed person. If you need to cry or be upset, go for a drive, or go for a walk. Don't do it in front of her. No more temper tantrums in front of her. (totally agree) you are right, they are damaging, and definitely not what you want to be doing.
Go read the chapter on LRT and come up with a plan as to how you are going to implement it. Set a time frame on which you are going to stick with your plan, say 2 weeks, and then reassess.
You need a plan, a strategy, and then you need to stick to it.
- My plan is to just keep focusing on making me a better person, being supportive & receptive of when my W needs me - being there for her & being the best dad I can be. Those are vague - and I will get some specific ones written down though that I'm thinking of in relation to 180's for me & my sitch.
Denver
Thanks Denver, your advice means a lot to me.
Bill
Hey BDB, Denver is bang on the money for some stuff but you have to also go with your instincts. Every day is a trial, I was in the same house with my H, though in seperate bedrooms. I found I got obsessed with the minutiae. The ONLY thing that helped was GAL.
I believe that what Denver says about the holiday is true, explain calmly & rationally why you accept that she isn't going but that you believe it is imperative you go with the children. I don't want to offend you but if you truly look into your heart & examine your reasons for not wanting to go without her, it is probably partly to do with the kids but also your own feelings about that situation. The "right" & "wrong" of such a situation shouldn't be an issue.
I am talking from experience here. This will be a painful but very clear way to show your W you are disenaging. As Denver says as long as you do it lovingly it is a powerful way to demonstrate that you have voice, & you can make choices about your life. Also, when I started to go out to see my friends until 01:00am without explanation, even though my H was having a PA it did get his attention.
Finally as a woman, at least in my experience of me & my friends, we sit up & notice when men challenge us a little. I'm not saying you should start acting like a total d**k but if you give her the impression she's in charge, however subtle, she won't thank you for it.
I am so glad you and your W had a good ending to the day!!
Here I am just venting....
I didn't control our time together - although that's what he perceives at the moment. My issue was that we rarely spent time together. This is what I was hollering about. Anyway, it's like my H is looking for issues to have a problem with. I was thinking about it today, and I feel like throwing in the towel. Of course I won't just yet, but that's how I am feeling today.
However, I definitely like the way you describe the effects of having a fear of confrontation. My H rarely confronted - for sure - instead his mode of 'confrontation' was to become cold and distant. Oh don't get me started on that one!
You are right, guys don't talk about the way they feel so when they dig around, suddenly there are issues. But of course there are issues!! My H says regularly, "I want the relationship, I just don't want the issues." When I tell him that all relationships have issues that need working on, he looks at me in disbelief. OMG - I'm not sure I will have the patience this is gonna take!!
Ok - I feel exasperated by the whole thing today. So, take all this with a grain of salt - thanks!
Take some time and think about that. What is it that this guy is giving her that she has not been receiving from you? - He made her feel like an attractive, fun to be around woman and desired her and openly flirted with her.
For me, it will mean being more creative with my compliments on how she looks, making her feel confident, sexy and wanted. Being there to listen to her thoughts, feelings and events and reacting to her in a positive way.
Initiating more physical contact & flirting - being more spontaneous, being more affectionate in public.
standing my ground on what I believe in - and ideally working with my wife to compromise how we resolve our differences & always make up affectionately.
Have you read the chapter in DR about the Last Resort Technique (LRT)? Yes, I've read That thanks Denver and a lot of it is hard to put in place living under the same roof - hence yesterday's episode. But I'm continuing to work on myself & trying to listen more & more to what my W wants.
I know that you are disappointed that your W does not want to go on the family vacation. But do you really want to go with this person as things stand now? I'd suggest telling her that she is right, that she shouldn't go. But that you are going to go. - I 100% want her there for the kids - they are only 6 and 8 - 2 weeks without their mum on a holiday of a lifetime is just plain wrong. Even if we fake it, the kids come first - on that holiday & in general.
You're going to need to detach big time now.
As for her asking for divorce goes? Well, I guess it depends on what you decide about waiting things out. If you want to save your marriage, then, IMO, you need to buy as much time as possible. So, don't bring this back up. If and when she does, I'd suggest telling her something like what I told my W when she brought up the D word: To be fair, she isn't ready for that & we discussed that last night - I think she does just need space & if she still wants a separation, come the 8th of May - I will move out for a trial separation - and we can just keep an open dialogue on how we both feel if things change. I can't move out at the moment - not working & too much stress with UNI - couldn't deal with the kids reaction on top of all that as well right now.
"W, I've told you before that I still love u and still think that we can have a great life together as both a couple and a family. I have not changed my mind on that. But I understand that you are not happy, that u don't feel happy or complete inside. U need to do what will make u happy. By my side, we can be partners and will share everything and we would do anything to help one another. But that's only if we continue as a team. but I won't stand in your way, but also won't help u leave this marriage or our family. I hope that u do find happiness u r looking for. go do what u need to do. You know where I will be." - Good Advice & well said
As for what I mean when I say "lovingly detach"? When I asked what this meant, the best definition that I got came from Jack3Beans. He said (I fixed his spelling errors - You're welcome Jack!):
"Lovingly detach...Pretty word that 'lovingly'. Beats angsty I suppose. To me detach means to not get drawn into their drama, not allow yourself to react to their bad actions either directly toward or in directly. Lovingly, I suppose means... If you child was throwing a tantrum for no reason, you'd ignore them (possibly), but be around and comfort them later when their tantrum was over." - totally get the definition of lovingly detach now - Thanks Denver / Jack
I feel like I'm all over the board with what I'm telling you Bill and not being as clear as I'd like. Part of the problem is that you are still in the same home as your W, and I was not. It was easier for me to detach (not saying that it was easy or that I was all that successful). And it was easier for me to go dark on my W when I needed to. I would suggest that as well, but it is not going to be easy with her in the same home as you. So mainly, you need to stop engaging her in conversation, and when she engages, be polite, but don't get drawn in. I actually think that not asking her about her doctor's appointment was good (unless it was a life threatening thing of course). Stay away from R talk at all costs right now. Be a good dad, GAL as much as you can, especially away from home if you can. Detach, detach, detach... try to have a positive mental attitude... and if you can't, fake it til you make it. She needs to see that you are a positive thinking person and that you are upbeat, even if things are cr*ppy for you right now. No one wants to be around a depressed person. If you need to cry or be upset, go for a drive, or go for a walk. Don't do it in front of her. No more temper tantrums in front of her. (totally agree) you are right, they are damaging, and definitely not what you want to be doing.
Go read the chapter on LRT and come up with a plan as to how you are going to implement it. Set a time frame on which you are going to stick with your plan, say 2 weeks, and then reassess.
You need a plan, a strategy, and then you need to stick to it.
- My plan is to just keep focusing on making me a better person, being supportive & receptive of when my W needs me - being there for her & being the best dad I can be. Those are vague - and I will get some specific ones written down though that I'm thinking of in relation to 180's for me & my sitch.
Denver
Thanks Denver, your advice means a lot to me.
Bill
I get what you are saying Bill, but until she is shown what she stands to lose if she continues with her actions, she has no reason to reflect on her choices or change her behavior.
I would strongly advise that you NOT move out of your home. She is the one choosing this. NOT YOU.
Again, lovingly detach. You state that you are going to continue to be there for her. If you are, why would she choose to change her behavior?? She has the best of both worlds. This has been something that I have struggled balancing as well. You want to be the "lighthouse", but you also have to show some tough love. She has to see that she stands to lose her husband if she stays on the current path... but not only that, she needs to also see what she will be missing when she loses you.
I fear that she is not going to come anywhere close to seeing her life without you as long as you continue to be there for her.
You have to find a way to detach from her and show her that you are capable and willing to move on with your life happily. Otherwise, you will be spinning your wheels for a very long time.
Yes, your kids come first, but I do not see any reason why you can't take them on this vacation without your W. SHE is choosing this path Bill! Not you. There has to be consequences for that choice. One of those consequences will be that she does not get to go on nice "family" vacations. Will you continue to go on vacation with her if she Ds you? Will you continue to go on vacation if she continues on with OM?
I've lived much of this Bill. Some things I have done right, others I have not. One thing that I wish that I had done much earlier was show my W that I would not be a part of her life as long as OM was. I did not set and enforce that boundary until I was a good 8 months into my situation. I could have knocked months off of my misery had I done so. I truly believe that.
Be a good person, a good dad, take care of your duties around the house. But this person is not your W right now.
Denver
Hi Norfolk
I can totally see your point of view about a lot of things and I really do need to start disengaging from my W. However, I disagree about the holiday, my children are pretty young and I want them to go on this holiday with their mum and dad, not for me, for them. I don't care how awkward or testing it may be, my kids come first. Future holidays will be different if we split, but this holiday has been planned for 3 years and the kids deserve to have us both there.
The major problem, I have about getting out and GAL is the stress i'm under @ uni trying to meet my deadlines because i'm really behind and struggling now. To make matters worse my W is helping me type up a lot of my work to help me out. I want to detach, but I find it incredibly hard, i'm trying though.
Thanks Bill
Hi YC
I think it's really good that we share our feelings about our partners, because it's helping us understand how they feel / felt.
I'm starting to seriously consider my options about moving out, because I don't think I can detach whilst i'm living in the same house. I'd have to see the kids everyday though, couldn't be a weekend dad.
Guys are pretty stupid when it comes to relationships and women are very complex and emotionally literate.
I know what you mean about the patience, and i'm thinking that I am not gonna wait around while she finds herself and continues her PA.
I too am not quite ready to throw in the towel, but I am not gonna be treated like this.
I've got Counselling today, boy I need it!
Take care YC
Bill
Hey Denver
I haven't got time to respond properly to your post got to run and get kids to school.
I'll reply later buddy
Take care
Bill
Hi YC
I think it's really good that we share our feelings about our partners, because it's helping us understand how they feel / felt.
I'm starting to seriously consider my options about moving out, because I don't think I can detach whilst i'm living in the same house. I'd have to see the kids everyday though, couldn't be a weekend dad.
Guys are pretty stupid when it comes to relationships and women are very complex and emotionally literate.
I know what you mean about the patience, and i'm thinking that I am not gonna wait around while she finds herself and continues her PA.
I too am not quite ready to throw in the towel, but I am not gonna be treated like this.
I've got Counselling today, boy I need it!
Take care YC
Bill
It is a good thing to understand from another's perspective - thanks for pointing that out. I think I had a bad day yesterday because I'm pretty ok today and felt love again in my heart. So, there will always be days of ups and downs, it's the long run that counts
Yes, even though we are not throwing in the towel, we must look after our wellbeings. So, you are right, don't allow yourself to be treated in a way that may lower your self-esteem. It is bad enough feel rejected, but to pile up further injury makes no sense. Of course, if I was completely an enlightened human being, I'd be able to see their current behavior as their lack of vision that is causing them to behave with such insensitivity towards another human being - and then let it roll of this duck's back. But, until that day comes, I will just keep an eye out for myself, as you
You go to uni - well, so do I! I was a total mess when all this started - even started crying at a meeting I had with one of my tutors. I was mortified and thought I was able to keep my personal life separate from my student life. I learned that lesson! Fortunately, I am in the arts, so we get to express a lot through our art and the tutors accept that. Is there anyway of incorporating your current personal sitch into your Uni work? Just an idea to help relieve some of the pressure.
YC
I get what you are saying Bill, but until she is shown what she stands to lose if she continues with her actions, she has no reason to reflect on her choices or change her behavior.
I would strongly advise that you NOT move out of your home. She is the one choosing this. NOT YOU.
Again, lovingly detach. You state that you are going to continue to be there for her. If you are, why would she choose to change her behavior?? She has the best of both worlds. This has been something that I have struggled balancing as well. You want to be the "lighthouse", but you also have to show some tough love. She has to see that she stands to lose her husband if she stays on the current path... but not only that, she needs to also see what she will be missing when she loses you.
I fear that she is not going to come anywhere close to seeing her life without you as long as you continue to be there for her.
You have to find a way to detach from her and show her that you are capable and willing to move on with your life happily. Otherwise, you will be spinning your wheels for a very long time.
Yes, your kids come first, but I do not see any reason why you can't take them on this vacation without your W. SHE is choosing this path Bill! Not you. There has to be consequences for that choice. One of those consequences will be that she does not get to go on nice "family" vacations. Will you continue to go on vacation with her if she Ds you? Will you continue to go on vacation if she continues on with OM?
I've lived much of this Bill. Some things I have done right, others I have not. One thing that I wish that I had done much earlier was show my W that I would not be a part of her life as long as OM was. I did not set and enforce that boundary until I was a good 8 months into my situation. I could have knocked months off of my misery had I done so. I truly believe that.
Be a good person, a good dad, take care of your duties around the house. But this person is not your W right now.
Denver
Hi Denver
I've been doing a lot of thinking about my sitch & currently as things stand my wife is openly admitting to me that she is going back to dancing on Thursday & will be dancing with the OM and that she doesn't care. (well she knows how I feel about it, so if she's saying she doesn't care- she has zero respect for me - I won't be used anymore)
My counselling sessions have revealed to me just how unhappy I have been in our marraige for a long time too, I just didn't deal with it.
Last week I was 100% for saving my marraige, but right now I'm 50 / 50 at best. The holiday text - was a big thing to me, because she put herself before the kids & she went down even further in my estimation as a decent human being.
The person my wife has turned into isn't the person I married and unless we both seriously worked at our communication and problem solving behaviour - nothing will change.
My Wife said that she has done what other people want her to do all her life, but no more she is doing what she wants to do. (I'm done pleading for another chance)
My only hopes of a future reconciliation are 3 fold
If between now & May when my UNI work is over, and my W has second thoughts about the separation.
If she realises that when I'm gone things feel different and incomplete
If our holiday reunites our bond as a family and a couple
Oh and if the OM either drops dead or they lose interest.
But then I need to factor in me, every day of hurt makes me question why I'm putting myself through this. What am I fighting for? a Wife who has helped make me feel miserable for the last few years and cheated on me, that shows little signs of remorse? If it wasn't for the kids, I question whether I would still be here now after all this crap.
I deserve better than that, we all do.
I'm detaching, I'm venting here, but I'm faking being happy around my W (well today I did at least), I might feel different tomorrow or next week,but right now I feel a lot of resentment towards my wife. But we get days like this right?
Bill
But we get days like this right?
Absolutely we do Bill.
The major problem, I have about getting out and GAL is the stress i'm under @ uni trying to meet my deadlines because i'm really behind and struggling now.
Could you go to the public library to do your work? You don't have to tell her where you're going. (Maybe add a bit of mystery.) It's not like GAL, but it will get you out of the house and a strained environment. I would think it might help you stay focused on your studies, too. But, you can't spill your guts by telling her everything.
I too am not quite ready to
It is a good thing to understand from another's perspective - thanks for pointing that out. I think I had a bad day yesterday because I'm pretty ok today and felt love again in my heart. So, there will always be days of ups and downs, it's the long run that counts
Yes, even though we are not throwing in the towel, we must look after our wellbeings. So, you are right, don't allow yourself to be treated in a way that may lower your self-esteem. It is bad enough feel rejected, but to pile up further injury makes no sense. Of course, if I was completely an enlightened human being, I'd be able to see their current behavior as their lack of vision that is causing them to behave with such insensitivity towards another human being - and then let it roll of this duck's back. But, until that day comes, I will just keep an eye out for myself, as you
You go to uni - well, so do I! I was a total mess when all this started - even started crying at a meeting I had with one of my tutors. I was mortified and thought I was able to keep my personal life separate from my student life. I learned that lesson! Fortunately, I am in the arts, so we get to express a lot through our art and the tutors accept that. Is there anyway of incorporating your current personal sitch into your Uni work? Just an idea to help relieve some of the pressure.
YC
I'm having a good / bad day today YC
I feel more in control of my emotions than I have in a long time. I just really feel bad for my kids - when the time comes for separation, which I think is inevitable - is gonna crush them. Even if I saw them everyday. I'm so hands on with those little guys.
I feel that I really do need to fix myself, be happy again and then decide what I want to do for me. I want to be with the kids as much as physically possible, that is for certain. Not much else in my life apart from getting older is certain.
My tutors at UNI have been great. Today I went to see one of them after my counselling session and she said, 'don't be to down on yourself, your life's sh*t at the moment' I laughed so much at that today.
We have a lot in common YC with our sitch's and I really like sharing what's going on with you.
Here's to better days
Bill
The major problem, I have about getting out and GAL is the stress i'm under @ uni trying to meet my deadlines because i'm really behind and struggling now.
Could you go to the public library to do your work? You don't have to tell her where you're going. (Maybe add a bit of mystery.) It's not like GAL, but it will get you out of the house and a strained environment. I would think it might help you stay focused on your studies, too. But, you can't spill your guts by telling her everything.
Hi Sandi
Yeah I think I will start going to the Library a bit more and just start coming in late. My life leaves me very accountable at the moment because of the children. So the only mystery I think I can muster between now & may is coming back later and later.
I really hope that what I'm feeling today passes, because right now I really do resent my W for her share of the blame in making our lives miserable & for the affair. I suppose it's healthy though to explore what I want. I know I don't want more of the same in our R. Being single vs how I've been feeling seems pretty appealing today.
(rollercoaster of emotions and moods- not a ride recommended for people with a heart or conscience)
Bill
[quote=breakdownbill
Hi Denver
I've been doing a lot of thinking about my sitch & currently as things stand my wife is openly admitting to me that she is going back to dancing on Thursday & will be dancing with the OM and that she doesn't care. (well she knows how I feel about it, so if she's saying she doesn't care- she has zero respect for me - I won't be used anymore)
My counselling sessions have revealed to me just how unhappy I have been in our marraige for a long time too, I just didn't deal with it.
Last week I was 100% for saving my marraige, but right now I'm 50 / 50 at best. The holiday text - was a big thing to me, because she put herself before the kids & she went down even further in my estimation as a decent human being.
The person my wife has turned into isn't the person I married and unless we both seriously worked at our communication and problem solving behaviour - nothing will change.
My Wife said that she has done what other people want her to do all her life, but no more she is doing what she wants to do. (I'm done pleading for another chance)
My only hopes of a future reconciliation are 3 fold
If between now & May when my UNI work is over, and my W has second thoughts about the separation.
If she realises that when I'm gone things feel different and incomplete
If our holiday reunites our bond as a family and a couple
Oh and if the OM either drops dead or they lose interest.
But then I need to factor in me, every day of hurt makes me question why I'm putting myself through this. What am I fighting for? a Wife who has helped make me feel miserable for the last few years and cheated on me, that shows little signs of remorse? If it wasn't for the kids, I question whether I would still be here now after all this crap.
I deserve better than that, we all do.
I'm detaching, I'm venting here, but I'm faking being happy around my W (well today I did at least), I might feel different tomorrow or next week,but right now I feel a lot of resentment towards my wife. But we get days like this right?
[/quote]
Hi Bill. I completely understand what you are feeling right now. I have had many days and moments where I have wondered what I was fighting for. Why I was fighting for someone who did not want me at that moment.
For me, it was 3 things that kept me going:
1) My acknowledgment that I played a great role in putting my M in jeopardy by not cherishing my W and treating her as she should have been treated. While I have never excused my W's decision to leave the M or her the choices that she made afterwards, it did allow me to have understanding. To know that she is a vulnerable human being, prone to error... as we all are... just as I was before (and am still).
2) My marriage vows. "... in good times and in bad" ... what did that mean to me? I had to answer that for myself early on in my situation. When I vowed to be with my w for the rest of my life, did I mean only until things got rough? Through sickness and in health... did that mean only physical sickness, or did it also mean depression, sadness, or my W losing her way in life. For me, it was a matter of what my word, my promise, to my W meant to me. And I also recognized that I had already broken my vow to cherish my W. I had to learn to forgive myself for that. Something that I am still working on.
3) The idea that iron is forged from fire. I decided that if my M could survive this, that it would ultimately be much, much stronger as a result. An affair is probably the single most difficult problem that a M can face... save maybe the death of a child. Can they survive and thrive, yes. There are stories here on this board of that happening. There are numerous books written on the subject. I decided that I wanted a M made of iron forged by fire. That's what I've chosen to strive for. As a result, I have learned tons about how difficult M is... how difficult being with one single person for our entire lives is. Can we really expect that there aren't going to be difficult times, that we aren't going to have to face the fact that we aren't always going to travel the exact same path as our spouse. We each are going to grow and change as the years pass. Bad things are going to happen. Poor choices are going to be made. But man, if I am with my W, my partner, at the end, if we have lived a life together that is happy for even 80% of that time, it will have been worth it. And what is a year, even two, when compared to 30, 40, 50, years together? It is a blip in the grand scheme of things.
4) Unconditional love. This is a concept that I had never really considered or thought about. What is it? This post from Truegritter's threads hit home with me and caused me to A LOT of reflection on what type of love I wanted to give and receive through the remainder of my life:
"We understand that what our spouse is doing is not to us. It is because of their fears and insecurities. It is because, in part, the way we have behaved. It is because most of all what THEY feel inside.
We understand that we have no control over this.
It is their choice and not about you BUT why would you want to stay in this because it still is causing you pain?
Why is it still causing you pain? What are we missing?
We all want to feel loved. We think about it, hope for it, fantasize about it, go to great lengths to achieve it, and feel that our lives are incomplete without it. The lack of unconditional love is the cause of most of our anger and confusion. It is no exaggeration to say that our emotional need for unconditional love is just as great as our physical need for air and food.
We learned that love was conditional, that we had to get it from the people around us with our words and behavior. And that is how we perceive it when it is given. We give then expect to get it.
Isn’t our marriage based on this? Isn’t this where it derailed?
If we leave now [AND IN THIS WAY] we confirm our ignorance of what love means and confirm that to our spouse that your love was not real but dependent and conditional.
You confirm again all the self loathing your spouse feels inside because the person that is supposed to love them hasn’t, won’t, and never will. You also confirm this most importantly in YOURSELF.
We want to know the mystery of love. The mystery of our marriage. To know ourselves.
To remove self doubt.
When you do that you begin to understand why you are standing for your spouse and your marriage.
And you start to learn what real love is.
Unconditional love is caring about the happiness of another without any thought for what we might get for ourselves. It’s also when other people care about our happiness unconditionally.
And what it is not
It is not what we have lived in our life and our marriage up to now. It is not controlling. It does not desire and force. It does not depend on action or inaction from our spouse.
And so as we let this soak in and as it takes hold we discover an amazing thing and it gives life to us and breaths hope into our spirits and that is:
Unconditional love is when we love despite the foolish choices of our spouse, when they fail to do what we desire, regardless of any choice they make. This love alone has the power to heal all wounds, deliver self respect and remove all doubt for you and your spouse. It allows love and healing to flourish.
This is how we need to be loved.
And this is the paradox.
That we only get this when we give it.
And now is the opportunity.
There is no GREATER opportunity you will ever have in your life then NOW to express this kind of love.
To do this takes greater courage than most people will ever understand and will ever know.
And you have received this wonderful gift only by going through the experience. By the trial.
By the tragedy.
What greater thing could you aspire to do.
EVER."
I'm not here to convince you of anything Bill, but the easy choice is not always the right choice.
What you have to decide man is whether or not your W and your M is worth it. No one can answer question but you.
Denver
Ugh... no edit button. Going to repost this.
Hi Bill. I completely understand what you are feeling right now. I have had many days and moments where I have wondered what I was fighting for. Why I was fighting for someone who did not want me at that moment.
For me, it was 3 things that kept me going:
1) My acknowledgment that I played a great role in putting my M in jeopardy by not cherishing my W and treating her as she should have been treated. While I have never excused my W's decision to leave the M or her the choices that she made afterwards, it did allow me to have understanding. To know that she is a vulnerable human being, prone to error... as we all are... just as I was before (and am still).
2) My marriage vows. "... in good times and in bad" ... what did that mean to me? I had to answer that for myself early on in my situation. When I vowed to be with my w for the rest of my life, did I mean only until things got rough? Through sickness and in health... did that mean only physical sickness, or did it also mean depression, sadness, or my W losing her way in life. For me, it was a matter of what my word, my promise, to my W meant to me. And I also recognized that I had already broken my vow to cherish my W. I had to learn to forgive myself for that. Something that I am still working on.
3) The idea that iron is forged from fire. I decided that if my M could survive this, that it would ultimately be much, much stronger as a result. An affair is probably the single most difficult problem that a M can face... save maybe the death of a child. Can they survive and thrive, yes. There are stories here on this board of that happening. There are numerous books written on the subject. I decided that I wanted a M made of iron forged by fire. That's what I've chosen to strive for. As a result, I have learned tons about how difficult M is... how difficult being with one single person for our entire lives is. Can we really expect that there aren't going to be difficult times, that we aren't going to have to face the fact that we aren't always going to travel the exact same path as our spouse. We each are going to grow and change as the years pass. Bad things are going to happen. Poor choices are going to be made. But man, if I am with my W, my partner, at the end, if we have lived a life together that is happy for even 80% of that time, it will have been worth it. And what is a year, even two, when compared to 30, 40, 50, years together? It is a blip in the grand scheme of things.
4) Unconditional love. This is a concept that I had never really considered or thought about. What is it? This post from Truegritter's threads hit home with me and caused me to A LOT of reflection on what type of love I wanted to give and receive through the remainder of my life:
"We understand that what our spouse is doing is not to us. It is because of their fears and insecurities. It is because, in part, the way we have behaved. It is because most of all what THEY feel inside.
We understand that we have no control over this.
It is their choice and not about you BUT why would you want to stay in this because it still is causing you pain?
Why is it still causing you pain? What are we missing?
We all want to feel loved. We think about it, hope for it, fantasize about it, go to great lengths to achieve it, and feel that our lives are incomplete without it. The lack of unconditional love is the cause of most of our anger and confusion. It is no exaggeration to say that our emotional need for unconditional love is just as great as our physical need for air and food.
We learned that love was conditional, that we had to get it from the people around us with our words and behavior. And that is how we perceive it when it is given. We give then expect to get it.
Isn’t our marriage based on this? Isn’t this where it derailed?
If we leave now [AND IN THIS WAY] we confirm our ignorance of what love means and confirm that to our spouse that your love was not real but dependent and conditional.
You confirm again all the self loathing your spouse feels inside because the person that is supposed to love them hasn’t, won’t, and never will. You also confirm this most importantly in YOURSELF.
We want to know the mystery of love. The mystery of our marriage. To know ourselves.
To remove self doubt.
When you do that you begin to understand why you are standing for your spouse and your marriage.
And you start to learn what real love is.
Unconditional love is caring about the happiness of another without any thought for what we might get for ourselves. It’s also when other people care about our happiness unconditionally.
And what it is not
It is not what we have lived in our life and our marriage up to now. It is not controlling. It does not desire and force. It does not depend on action or inaction from our spouse.
And so as we let this soak in and as it takes hold we discover an amazing thing and it gives life to us and breaths hope into our spirits and that is:
Unconditional love is when we love despite the foolish choices of our spouse, when they fail to do what we desire, regardless of any choice they make. This love alone has the power to heal all wounds, deliver self respect and remove all doubt for you and your spouse. It allows love and healing to flourish.
This is how we need to be loved.
And this is the paradox.
That we only get this when we give it.
And now is the opportunity.
There is no GREATER opportunity you will ever have in your life then NOW to express this kind of love.
To do this takes greater courage than most people will ever understand and will ever know.
And you have received this wonderful gift only by going through the experience. By the trial.
By the tragedy.
What greater thing could you aspire to do.
EVER."
I'm not here to convince you of anything Bill, but the easy choice is not always the right choice.
What you have to decide man is whether or not your W and your M is worth it. No one can answer question but you.
Denver
Hey Denver
Just read your post, I know what you are talking about with unconditional love. I do have that for my kids and I believe I have it for my wife (but as you say the true test will come in the weeks and months ahead).
I know that she wants me to get on with my life and be happy for the kids. She keeps on telling me you'll meet someone so much better than me etc etc (guilt talking).
I have to let her make these decisions on her own, without challenge. Take the dancing in my sitch for example, this is something that she gets friendship, the ability to express herself doing something she loves (dance), an emotional attachment to friends and another man (dance partner) and her physical and social needs are met. Now bearing in mind that she is a textbook WAW, I think my sitch is a little more problematic to overcome given the other variables.
* i.e. when I'm gone, her life is pretty full already and there won't be a gaping hole left by me, plus I'll still be around for the kids*
I'm not just up against another man, I'm up against her new (newish 2 .5 years) identity, circle of friends and what makes her happy.
Things might change over time, based on my own growth as an individual, how I interact and have fun with the kids and how I deal with our separation.
I'm not giving up, I'm just being realistic about what I'm up against. I have low expectations and I am starting to detach and think about me as an individual again.
I am fully aware of my role in my M and the part you said about not cherishing my W, that is what I feel most guilty about. I wish I'd have stood up for my M and showed her how I felt, when she still wanted me.
The only thing I can do now is regroup, keep working on myself, be a great dad & if there is an opportunity in the future to reconcile be ready to take it with both hands.
Bill
I really think I'll know how my detaching is going by about this time tomorrow. My W is going back dancing & is going to be dancing with the OM and has told me straight that she doesn't care what I think about it.
To be fair, I know exactly where I stand and that we are no longer in any R - other than being friends and playing happy families for the unsuspecting little guys, who are yet to get the bomb themselves.
How I deal with these 2 situations will be my biggest immediate tests. The OM is old news to me now and I fully expect to be kept in the dark about if there is still an affair going on. Either way, that is her business - because we are no longer together in the sense of Husband and Wife.
I'll have to be strong for the kids when the time comes (which will be soon) and I need to make sure I'm as detached as I can be from their Mum in time for that bomb.
I just put my little girl to bed before and she said that she wants to save her picture frame that she won the other day to put a picture of all of us as a family outside Hogwarts when we go to Universal Studios. It made me feel happy, sad and kind of vindicated that I am doing the right thing going on holiday together.
On Sunday when we were arguing I said to my wife that I didn't want to bring the kids into our Relationship discussion. But when she said that they would be fine, I said, 'Can you remember all the Christmas's, Birthday's, days out and holidays and time spent as a family together'? W 'Yeah' Me 'Well imagine them without your Dad being there' She just took it as me guilt tripping her (yeah in part it was, but I wanted her to get a picture in her head just how much this is going to affect all of our lives not just mine & hers).
We've been getting on a lot better since Sunday, there is no tension between us. The conversations are comfortable, we always were good friends though.
I'm happy that I've felt good for 3 days about the sitch & not been thinking about what my W is doing. Just doing what I need to do. I'm getting there with the detachment and think I'll be ready when the time comes to tell the kids and move out.
Yeah I know moving out goes against what everyone says on here, but my W has said that if I don't go and make her go she will take the kids with her anyway, so I need to do what's best for the kids in that respect if one of us has to leave.
Although my post seems a little downbeat, I feel OK and I still want to be with my W - but I don't want to go back to the way things were, just as much as she does.
So I guess I'm saying that I'm going to take that long road, but I'm going to do some things my way & work on my 180's as I go.
Short term goals
Pass UNI
Make sure kids are OK
Continue with my Counselling
Detach
Anything else right now is a bonus
GAL will have to wait until May LOL
Bill
I don't know what to say Bill. It's obviously up to you what is best for you and whatever will help you feel better is the priority. I would suggest though that maybe before making a definitive decision, just try on detaching 'for size'. So, go dark and detach and see how that feels over a period of time. If that works best for you, then you can make it a definitive decision and announce it as such. Don't announce anything through to your W until you try it for yourself at first.
Also, I want to say that when I first separated from my H 1.5 years ago, he too went to a counselor. He also came to the same conclusion: he was unhappy for X number of years and didn't realise it until he started talking to the counselor.
But, 1.5 years later, he is no more happy! He has made very little progress in that time. In fact, at one point, we had a 3 month no contact separation (his idea) as he thought it would solve his unhappiness by making it all go away. He ended up having a panic attack.
I can honestly say that we have both been pretty unhappy with all this starting and stopping, and it has created a lot of instability (unlike anything we had before). What we really needed were solutions - not analysis.
The happiest he was in this 1.5 years was when I pulled us back together to work on things proactively - no questions asked, not looking back, just looking forward. It all went pear shaped when I lost my footing (hence current separation).
Despite him being 'convinced' divorce is the right way to go, I can pretty much guarantee neither of us are happy being without the other.
How I wished I could have found a solutions based therapistor coach!! The hassle it would have saved, the broken hearts, the hopelessness and sense of failure. Looking back now, we just didn't have the right tools and knowledge. That's how I see it.
I guess it's something we all learn as we go along.
BTW, my H and I have been together for a total of 17 years (married for 10 years) - and it's been the last 1.5 years that have seen us oscillating like this.
Hi YC
I know what you are saying in a round about way about not making any definite decisions on my R. I haven't made any of these decisions really, I'm just listening to what my W is asking for - space (and for me to go). I honestly believe she wants to be single and to do what she wants right now, because that's how she says she has felt for a long time - single (but with the guilt).
I'm going to keep improving myself in every way possible & the dream is still for my W to want to really give us a shot again & to let me show her how my changes can help fix our relationship & make it stronger than ever.
I really have been unhappy for a long time. I'm not unhappy that I'm married to my wife - if I had my time again I'd marry her every time. But like everyone on here, we would have listened & changed our 'more of the same' behaviour, overcome our problems and cherished our spouses.
I think it is fair to say our WAS's are confused but we can't assume anything about what they are feeling. I suspect that the way we are up and down day to day - they are exactly the same - searching for validation - trying to prove to themselves that they are doing the right thing.
We've got to regain our self esteem, our confidence and our sense of freedom to become the real you and I again YC.
Your sitch is a lot further down the road to mine and it does sound like there are green shoots of hope & possibilities for you YC.
I'm only just starting really (accepting the reality) and I'm getting myself ready for a rough ride of highs and lows.
Bill
OK I need to vent and let off some steam before tonight.
I'm happy that me and my W are being friendly again & the tension in the house has gone, it really has felt much better.
I'm just struggling a little with the detachment today, because of what's happening tonight (dancing with OM) & the fact that I know I've got to keep up my 'act as if' approach until I really mean it.
It's just a test, another test I keep telling myself & if it wasn't for this UNI work - I could be out GAL 'g to take my mind of things.
It's really hard when you know you have to let go, especially when you're completely conscious to what you are letting go, knowing that what you had may never come back again.
I keep on telling myself, it doesn't matter what she does now, because she's in WAW mode, but man is it a wrestle of your emotions. No matter how much you rationalise something, you still have to hurt and live within the reality of your own situation.
My kids keep me going, but I'll need to stay focused tonight & keep my mind away from things that will only do me harm.
I really hope I pass my 1st test & prove to myself that I am strong enough to let my W go freely into the tides of the night, so I can find myself and be strong enough to swim against the tide and find still waters.
Bill
Hi BB,
A couple of days have passed now so am wondering, how you are feeling?
Everyday I wake up, there is something that is automatically detaching in order to be able to focus on uni stuff too. I see your bomb was in Feb. I think eventually it will get easier and is a matter of time. You will still have days (I certainly do!) but it does get better. But, you still do live with you WAW so it might take longer. I wonder if anyone here can confirm that.
What I am finding is that it is hard to actually detach and still work towards anything. I fear that I will eventually not have any energy for all this and just let it go quite naturally. A part of me does not want to let it go - for all the good times we have had, and for all that we could have...if only.
What part of you doesn't want to let go? And, why?
Hi YC
I've started a new thread
I didn't see it coming part 2 I'm feeling really good thanks, and I am far from detached, but was getting there.
I'd had a good couple of days, Thursday night was a breeze. Why? Well my W was actually messaging me while she was there & came home early. So my mind didn't wander.
Yesterday I felt good went for a run & our conversations were great, some flirting going on. Then yesterday evening my sister called to see how I was & I didn't want to leave the room to make my W feel uncomfortable. My phone's pretty loud & my wife could hear my sister say, 'Can you talk is W's name there?' - It was awkward, but I handled it as best as I could. I simply said , 'yes' to my sister & assured her that I was fine & not to worry about me.
I've made a conscious decision not to discuss anything further about my sitch with family & people who are close to us both (out of respect to my W & plus I don't want any pressure or bad advice).
After the call I apologised to my W for making her feel awkward on the phone & explained that I was sorry for confiding some details about our sitch, but that I had stopped discussing our M issues a while ago & that I didn't want to talk to my family about it.
My W was fine about it & we ended up having a R talk which was different to any we've been having since the 1st bomb.
My W was very indecisive this time saying whether we stay together or not - which was a real positive. So I kind of validated this & probed by saying, 'I realise now just how broken our R had become & that all's I wanted right now was to build our R slowly brick by brick, without any pressure or outside influence. I said that I wasn't ready to be full on & jump back into our R and that I'd like to take babysteps & take it slowly. My W seemed really happy about this and later on she flirted with me in bed & we made love. (YC the kissing was amazing, so much desire on both sides for each other).
I am not going to push anything & just take it day by day, but I'm happy that my changes are being noticed & my 180 this week of being happy, communicating & genuinely listening to my W's day to day events have paid off. I feel like we are slowly mending our R. I'm expecting many more highs & lows, but right now I am content & very happy at the way things are moving.
My big, big win this week was letting go of the guilt and blame I felt for our R breaking down & accepted it was over. As daft as it might sound, I was simply acting as if it was over & believing it was over & that I was OK with it.
I felt transformed & did feel like a big part of the old me was back, telling jokes, that spring in my step.
My W still loves me & wants it to work, like me she doesn't want to keep hurting anymore, so we're taking it step by step.
All's I'll say is I'm happy today, who knows what tomorrow will bring.
Detaching is hard, but letting go of the guilt and blame is even harder. If you can let go of that, you can look to the future YC.
Love life, love yourself and let yourself be loved & good things will happen.
(I'm all loved up today)
Bill
Nice one Bill!! I can see so many positive aspects in your all's interaction. Not only did you not speak to your sister at length about the R, you got off the phone to apologise to your W about sharing the R concerns and decided to not do it. That is amazing. No wonder she was all flirty with you!!
If my H did that for me, I'd also be all over him
You see, that is a man protecting the R - even if it is in shambles (at the moment). There are a few things up there that just drive a woman to nothing but pure admiration and attraction for her man:
- protecting the heart of the woman
- protecting the relationship
- standing up for one's self (in an assertive manner)
- Being confident in yourself
Enjoy the day!! You clearly are deserving the reward of love for working so hard.
Thanks YC
That reply from you really cheered me up. At the time when my sister called I was like, 'oh please don't say anything to me that might screw things up for us, because they were going so well'. But you're right, I was thinking about my R and my W's feelings and there was absolutely no way I was going to leave the room to let her feel like I was discussing our R.
I feel so much better, not just because of my W's reaction last night, but because she seen 1st hand, just how much she means to me and that when I say that I won't have anyone say a bad word about her. I mean it!
It was a definitive action, not just words. Some on here might say I've been pursuing this week. I was prepared to let my W go, because I love her so much and had she told me that she wants to be with the OM I wouldn't have stood in her way. I've learned truly that if you can forgive yourself and realise that we are only here for a short while, you enjoy every minute.
Everytime I make love to my wife I think it may be the last time and I give myself fully, no fear of anything, just a desire to satisfy my wife and let her know how beautiful she is. That's always been my problem in the past worrying about not satisfying my wife and overthinking things. I realise you just have to let go of your inhibitions and give yourself fully, to truly connect to your spouse.
I think a lot of us on here have been so insecure in the past, that we ended up here.
YC your H is weak right now, I know how he feels, but he's got to snap out of it. The more relaxed you are around your H, the less anxiety he will feel.
He needs help, but he's got to find himself first. Everyday you get stronger, stronger for YOU! When the penny drops for him and you do start putting your Marraige together, the best advice I can give you is to not put any pressure on yourself, let things happen naturally and flirt without the fear of rejection.
YC I know you are a good woman and you'll get there. I'm not taking anything for granted and I will be as patient as I need to be, responding to my W and trying subtle new things here and there.
I really need to buckle down and get my UNI work done, 6 weeks and lots to do. I'm sure I'll have more highs and lows before then. But I'm loving life again, and when you experience the real lows, you fully enjoy the highs in life.
Take care & keep your spirits up YC
Bill
coming home at 5 and 8am and not suspicious of her cheating?
think again...
Being enamored and idolizing the party scene eventually leads to participants doing what they do. So if she hasn't cheated now, enough time and repetitions mixed with alcohol and she will be drawn closer and closer to it.
I didn't say it was bad or good. It just is what it is.