I guess it's time for a new thread.
Background:
M:31, H:33, T:13.5, M: 8.5, S4. Used to be "best friends", always did everything together.
Frequent things that come out of H's mouth: "I don't care", "I don't know", "Deal with it".
H dropped bomb 11/26, a shock to me. Seemed that he turned off his emotions from one day to another, and turned into a "stranger". Seemed very angry and hostile. Had (and still has) those "shark eyes". Doesn't want to be at home. Annoyed and frustrated by S4. Blames me for everything that has gone wrong in his life. I go to IC, H doesn't. H doesn't want MC. H has attachment issues from childhood (adopted twice).Said he wants to move out, but hasn't done anything yet. Overall seems to be acting like an irresponsible teenager.
Before diving into the latest, I wanted to once again express my appreciation for this community. I don't know where I would be without the valuable resources and support I received from here. I also appreciate the encouragement I keep receiving even when I don't quite feel that there is hope or question how long I am going to be in this limbo.
Busy day yesterday, which helped stay out of H's way and reduce awkward tension. Saturday night H slept on the couch (or floor?) again, but showed up in bed towards the morning. I had a terrible night, couldn't fall asleep until after 3, so when he showed up in bed I was not happy. S4 is an early riser and I was hoping he'd just watch TV while I dozed in bed, but that was out of question now. Then I spent a good part of the morning finishing the marble maze I got for S4. I must say, I'm very proud of myself for putting it together. It even has a motorized part to it and everything worked when I was done! Stopped in between to make an elaborate breakfast as H was getting hungry. Then I dove into the household stuff, laundry, cleaning, vacuuming, grocery shopping.
H seemed in a better mood. Helped fold laundry. Acknowledged my cleaning efforts in his own twisted way (asked whether I was done yet).
H went to his "party". H told me I could wear his Pats t-shirt if I wanted to, and told me what channel the game was on - how nice of him! I made the food that I wanted to make (though I made wings instead of ribs), but then decided to go over to a friend's house to watch the game with her and her roommate. Packed up S4 and the food and we both had a great time. Sorry to see the Pats lose though.
H slept on the couch again, then came to bed towards the morning, but left again before I got up. Weird. I hate being a light sleeper and wake up every time H comes home late or in and out of the bedroom, then I have a hard time falling asleep again.
This morning H seemed in a good mood again and seemed more chatty than normal. Showed me a shirt he got from a restaurant that he "ended up at because of the wing deal". What kind of a super bowl party do you go to that doesn't have football party food and causes you to go to a restaurant? It still irks me that H told S4 he'd watch the game with him, and then makes "better" plans and doesn't explain the change of plans. I'm glad that it doesn't seem to have hurt S4 as much as it did me. H noticed a few of S4's toys in a bag that we brought with us to friend's house and asked if we went out. He seemed surprised, but didn't say anything.
Little confession: I snooped on H's phone this morning while he was in the shower. Noticed a blank text from OW this morning. I know it doesn't necessarily mean anything, but boy did it make my heart beat faster.
I had been thinking about adopting a cat, because I (and S4) could use a little four-legged, loving companion. I had been looking at the site of a local shelter and made the mistake of showing H a cat that I liked (I think this was last Friday). H got defensive and said that I should know that we're not in a good place to get a pet. I now understand that he may have taken it as me trying to pull him closer.
Even though that is not the real reason, I guess I may need to put big things like that on hold until we're out of the "treading water" period. And maybe getting a pet right now is really not a good idea because of the circumstances. Who knows what future will bring, we may need to move and having a pet might put a little obstacle in the process. It just stinks being in this limbo stage.
I'm still expecting H to move out at some point because I think he really does need to hit 'rock bottom', to realize that that 'real life' bites and that he does have A LOT to walk away from. Because of that, I still think about what I would want to do and sort of started a mental list:
- take a self-defense class
- get a baseball bat (for self-defense purposes, because let's face it, having a man around gives me some sense of security)
And even if H decides to stick around, then doing those things might still be good.
Doing those things will definitely be great. Well.. The self defense part! Lol.
H slept on the couch again, then came to bed towards the morning, but left again before I got up. Weird. I hate being a light sleeper and wake up every time H comes home late or in and out of the bedroom, then I have a hard time falling asleep again.
Why not set a boundry and tell him either to start in the bed or stay on the couch.
I think he really does need to hit 'rock bottom', to realize that that 'real life' bites and that he does have A LOT to walk away from.
I think the same thing about my wife, who i believe is loading her u-haul right now for her trip to Arizona...
Nhmom,
How old was your husband when he was adopted/given up?
Do you feel there are any family of origen issues here? I'm wondering if your son's age has triggered a painful memory for him.
Was your husband ever demonstrably loving and kind to you?
It's a shame your husband won't seek counseling, given his childhood I'd wager he has many tough issues to work through.
Hang in there!
HS-
H was adopted at birth first; at age 5 the second time. He also spent about 2 years in foster care between adoptions. His parents split shortly after the second adoption, then his dad passed away when he was 7. H reconnected with his biological mom 5 years ago, within weeks of finding out that we were going to have a baby. H is still trying to rebuild a relationship with his "new" family, at the same time H neglects his adoptive mom (always has).
H has been very loving to me for almost the entire time we've been together (well until about a few months ago). Well, not overly, but I do think that I meant a lot to him. I really do hope that he'll realize that he needs C, regardless of what happens. H's got a lot of emotional stuff going on and he does need help sorting out those feelings.
H has has been very loving father towards S4 up until recently. Always helped out with anything, from getting up in the middle of the night to changing diapers. He has admitted on a few occasions that he is jealous of S4 and that I put all of my energy towards S4. I don't disagree with him, I know I should have balanced it out better than I have.
Wanted to share something H said tonight that I haven't heard in a few months: "I'm sorry". Simple words. It was not about our R or M at all, but it was still strange to hear it.
H asked me this morning what we were having for dinner. He then emailed me at work asking if we could have another dish instead (we usually have a menu planned for the week, but do swap it around). So I cooked what he wanted and S4 and I ate by ourselves because H was late. At some point H called to say that he was on his way home. Apparently, he had gone to a store after work. When he got home he actually said "I'm sorry" and that it took longer than he thought it would. He kinda mumbled when he said it. I'm just shocked to hear him say those words. He hasn't been telling me what time he'd come home or where he goes. I haven't been asking him either.
I also got to see a few minutes of the "old" H. S4 and I were building a train track on the floor and he actually sat down and helped out.
More examples of how S4 is affected by H's recent actions:
S4: Why does daddy have to be mad at us all the time?
M: What do you mean?
S4: Why does he yell at me all the time?
M: Sometimes you don't listen and it makes daddy unhappy.
S4: Why does he have to yell at you?
M: Sometimes daddy is not happy with me either.
S4: Well, I'm angry at daddy because he doesn't hug you. And he yells at me even if I'm good.
I don't think H heard S4 say those things. It makes me sad. All I can do is assure S4 that we both love him.
I'm still expecting H to move out at some point because I think he really does need to hit 'rock bottom', to realize that that 'real life' bites and that he does have A LOT to walk away from. Because of that, I still think about what I would want to do and sort of started a mental list:
- take a self-defense class
- get a baseball bat (for self-defense purposes, because let's face it, having a man around gives me some sense of security)
I also need to get a AAA membership, 'cause if I get stranded on the side of a road, I wouldn't be calling H.
I was feeling down yesterday. It's the feeling that you're stuck and can't do anything to move forward, maybe stuck in a maze not knowing which path to take. I also feel very lonely. I don't have family close by, don't have many friends. I don't have a lot of time to GAL. My focus right now is work and my S4. What I noticed yesterday though, was that I came out of feeling down fairly "quickly". It didn't last hours or days, I didn't let it affect my daily tasks. Also, I was able to listen to some pretty sad love songs without even tearing up.
After having a low day, the night turned out pretty good, considering the current circumstances. H was in a meh mood at first, nothing out of the ordinary. It was his soccer night. When he came back he didn't seem happy. He told him he got a red card. He said he went after a guy, but the guys was being a jerk. He then went on to the living room to watch soccer and have a beer. He usually takes more time to calm down after a game, but he came to bed after a few minutes.
H said we shouldn't tell S4 that he got a red card for getting into a fight. I said maybe we shouldn't say anything at all, because S4 will ask a million questions. H said that he wants to teach S4 about being carded, so we agreed that we'd tell S4 that H got a card for fouling another player. H then said "I'm glad we agree." There was a difference in his tone, it actually had positive emotion. I could almost feel him cracking a smile when he said that (it was dark, so I couldn't see).
Then H asked me for a back rub. I ended up giving him a full body massage, which in the end led to ML. It felt so good and I really enjoyed the moment. I tried not to think about what it meant, the future, or anything else...just enjoyed that very moment. H commented on the shirt I was wearing to bed. It was nothing special, but he asked whether I wear it on purpose because he likes it. Maybe I need to invest in some new sleep wear, if that is what he notices.
This morning S4 came up to bed early. I sent him away the first time, but when he came back 10 minutes later I let him climb into bed with us. He lay there cuddling next to me first. Then he pulled my arm and H's arm close to him and said "We are the best family ever". Then, H pulled S4 close to him and they lay there snuggling for a few minutes. What a precious site, it made me smile. I hope that H appreciated that, and that he understands what he'll be missing out on.
All very very positive signs. Definitely buy some nice sleep wear.
"We are the best family ever" This is working. Stick with the program. He wants to be with you, he wants to be a family. He needs time to trust that the changes are real but he is moving closer.
Also you wrote the other day about getting a dog. From my experience our cats were the first thing my H freaked out about. After his ILYBNILWY speech he could not stand our 2 cats. If they tried to sit on his lap, he would throw the cat half way across the room. They used to be his best little buddies but once he was angry he took it all out on them.
You are doing great! Show him the new NHmom everyday!
"We are the best family ever" just melted my heart. :-)
nh, I started wearing different clothes to bed recently. Nothing overtly sexy, but things that did make me feel sexy. I needed that for my self esteem at that moment. My H commented on it the 2nd night I wore something like that. I think he could tell there was something different about me.
Soon, he was back in our bed and we were intimate. No ML yet though. I'm also just enjoying those moments. No reading into why or what's next.
Thanks, I really do see these little things as positive, but sometimes they seem so far and few in between that it's hard to keep a good outlook on things. I just need to take a deep breath and keep telling myself: "baby steps".
I've been thinking some 180's:
1) Don't question H about his whereabouts.
Even if he's coming home late, I don't ask why. I'm also trying not to get upset about it. It's very easy for me to get upset over something silly, even if I get over it 5 seconds later, but I know that "flipping out" left some negative marks with H. I think I've been doing pretty good at this 180. I just "let him be", even if it seems to upset me, but I don't let him know.
2) Smile more.
Not that I don't smile. I like to smile, but I can't walk around with a smile all day long. I need to make my "neutral" face appear more positive. H used to say and think that I was mad about something all the time. I'd reassure him that I wasn't, maybe I'd be deep in thought or something. But now that my S4 thinks I look mad even though I'm not, there must be seriously something wrong with my face. I need to smile more, especially when H comes home. Even if he doesn't look at me, I think he will sense a happier greeting if I smiled.
3) "Act as if" I'm happy.
This one is easier said than done. How can somebody "act" happy? Well, if I sense unhappy thoughts creeping up, I need to redirect my thoughts to things that do make me happy - my S4 is the best example.
4) Detach (aka grow a thicker skin)
While I think that I've made some good progress in detaching, I feel like reacting from time to time. I still let things bother me. I need to get better at brushing them off, but I understand that some feelings do need to be validated first, and then I need to get over them.
Quote of the day: "If you focus on the past, you ruin the future. You can only live for today" (taken from someone's thread a couple of months ago)
Way to go nhmom
ML must be wonderful.
Next time, I think you should ask him for a back rub too.
I really do.
You don't want him thinking you're at his beck and call and fawning over him. Besides, you deserve it!!!!! :p
nh, I started wearing different clothes to bed recently. Nothing overtly sexy, but things that did make me feel sexy. I needed that for my self esteem at that moment.
Same here! Every morning he comes over I'm still wearing a cute/sexy pj dress. He doesn't say anything but at least I feel more attractive.
Journaling:
Yesterday started being a good day. I was truly humbled by people...strangers...how nice people can be where I live. Within 5 minutes of each other three people literally jumped out of their way to hold the door open for me. I got cookies from someone else as a "thank you" and some chocolate dropped off at work from an "older" guy...he always seems to drop off chocolate on my desk.
By the end of the day my energy level was low and I started to feel down. Tired of everything that's been going on. Tired of H and his shananigans.
I didn't feel like cooking. I was tired, both mentally and physically. Why do I have to do EVERYTHING? Well, even if H didn't live at home, I'd still have to do it for S4. So I started cooking. H finally shows up and the first thing out of his mouth are "Hey. What's for dinner?" I feel like I'm his mother. I just wanted to snap, but only did "half a snap". I just said "food". A few minutes later he came back to the kitchen and tried to do some small talk. I was calmer by then and answered when asked.
H then asked what's for dinner the next night. I told him that I was going out, so he can eat whatever he wants. He started questioning me with where, with whom, etc. I was vague at first, but he kept asking. I'm going out to dinner with a meet-up group..I think about 10-12 girls, so I'm really looking forward to it.
For the past 2 nights H has commented about dinner, that he liked it. I didn't say anything, but in my head was thinking that he won't have anyone cooking for him when he moves out.
While eating dinner last night he felt that he needed to act immature. He was drinking water and felt that it would be funny if he sprayed me in the face. I took a deep breath, then did the same back. Yes, it feels like I'm married to a teenager.
This morning he was complaining how he hurt all over. Hmm, I guess we're not 20 anymore, are we?
I'm doing what I can to stay calm, try to put a smile on my face when H walks through the door (even though I feel like giving him a kick in the butt). I'm tired of the flip flopping. One day he sleeps in bed, the next day he's on the couch. One moment he's grumpy and distant, another time he's friendly and chatty. Sometimes he says 'hi' or 'bye', but usually he doesn't. Sometimes he tries to be funny (ok, that's stretching it a little) and other times he won't look at me, let alone in my eyes.
I miss the love and affection. I miss the hugs. I miss him saying that I'm beautiful and that I'm the only one for him. The more time passes by, the more it seems to become a distant memory. I start questioning why I should put up with it. I want to be appreciated. I want to be loved. I want someone to want to grow old with me.
H seems upset me about telling him that I am planning on going out tonight. Here's an email exchange from this morning:
H: When were you going to tell me you were going out tonight? Not that I care in the least but when were you going to tell me? (ouch, not care "in the least")
M: I was going to tell you last night. I wanted to before, but didn’t feel like there was a good time.
H:What do you mean there wasn’t a good time. How hard is it to tell me?
M:You’re right, it shouldn’t be hard. I just didn’t know what kind of mood you’d be in. (I should have left the second part out)
H: Whatever. Not buying that.
H can come home at whatever time he wants to, goes out if he feels like it without telling me anything...and I don't ask. And now that I made plans to go out, I should feel bad about waiting until the night before to tell him? Who does he think he is? I even lined up MIL as backup sitter in case H made plans, but I didn't tell him. Don't want him to think that I was going behind his back and not consulting with him first. Well, I know what kind of mood he'll be in tonight. Good thing I won't have to be around him for too long.
You did a great job responding to his texts. Looks like he is just trying to start a fight with you and you didnt take the bait. Nice job.
Make a nice dinner, turn on some nice music and ignore Mr. Grumpy
H: When were you going to tell me you were going out tonight? Not that I care in the least but when were you going to tell me? (ouch, not care "in the least")
someone obviously does care if he's bringing it up and getting upset. thought you would be sitting at home pining? someone thought wrong!!! good on you!!
H is really testing me and I'm trying sooooo hard to keep my mouth shut.
H emailed a few minutes ago: Would you have a problem if I went to Mohegan Sun with some people next weekend? (a casino a couple of states away)
I took a few minutes and a deep breath, then replied "no".
He writes back "ok", but then sends another email "You hate that idea don’t you?".
I haven't responded back. Truth? Yes, I hate the idea. I don't know who he's going with, and I'm not going to ask. I don't know if OW is going (I saw he texted her a few days ago...they work together and see and talk to each other every day, so the text was outside of work hours). I don't know how much money he's going to spend. I don't know anything. And I know not to ask anything. It stinks. And I really wish we could go together.
I know I can only control my own actions and he's going to do whatever he wants anyway, whether it's at some casino or here. It still stinks.
So what am I supposed to say? "Sounds like fun. Have a great time!" ???
"Sounds like fun. Have a great time!"
exactly
"I miss the love and affection. I miss the hugs. I miss him saying that I'm beautiful and that I'm the only one for him. The more time passes by, the more it seems to become a distant memory. I start questioning why I should put up with it. I want to be appreciated. I want to be loved. I want someone to want to grow old with me."
I'm with ya on this one. The lack of affection was a factor in my breakup, and I always thought I could take it or leave it... Now that it's gone, I realize how much I had it and that I miss it now.
I'm super impressed with how you handled the texts today. One thing that I thought about is this: The simple fact that he *asked* you if it would be ok (or even involving you in his planning process) says that he still thinks of you as his wife- in some way. I mean, would he just ask a guy friend if 'it would be ok' to go somewhere- no.
Your H seems to enjoy the benefits of marriage- ML, having meals together, talking with someone at night... but doesn't want the whole package that includes: responsibilities, accountability, giving more than taking. When he moves out (if he ever does) he'll quickly see that the certain things he enjoys, are gone too because they are part of the whole package of marriage. I've wanted to tell my H that our marriage is not an 'al a carte' menu- you can't just pick and choose what you want to have and when- he has to accept the WHOLE menu.
As hard as it is going to be for you to swallow your irritations, I think you should tell him to have fun on the trip- there's always the chance that he might change his mind and not go because he is aware of how you feel about it (he said so without you having to say it.) Remember, it's not our jobs to have any effect on their lives- They have made it clear they want to live separate and apart lives: this means *they* don't get any influence in our activities, and vice versa. I think this is also reflected in the way that he was drilling you about you going out (he still thinks he has a *right* to know these things- and if you were still M, you probably would have told him)... He has to realize his decision cuts both ways.
You are doing amazing at holding it all together, and keeping calm in front of him. Maybe you can take up boxing or target shooting- using H's photo as a focal point- could be very therapeutic!! LOL!
Ok, that's what I said. He was already emailing me and asking if I was ignoring him.
I replied by saying:
"Sorry, I was in a meeting (made up), and now I have to jump on a conference call.(true)
Sounds like fun. Have a great time!"
I'm sure he'll try to bait me more at home tonight. It's interesting, though, that it almost seems like he's asking me for permission to go. I'm having a hard time giving him my blessing for him to go if OW is going. But I don't know that for sure. I don't like lying, but I feel like I have to lie about my feelings.
Purg,
I'm really getting tired of doing all those things for H and he's just "eating his cake". The "a-la-carte menu" reference is right on the spot. That's what he's doing, picking out things that he wants without any kind of responsibility or accountability.
The benefit of communicating via text/email is that you have time to respond. You can take a deep breath or two and ponder over what you're going to say. Our conversation is probably not over yet, so I'm hoping it will be okay in person as well. My mind is just racing. I'm obviously affected by H's actions - not doing too well detaching, though at least I'm trying to act detached even though in my head I'm a mess.
The weird part about my plans to go out when I told him last night he didn't seem affected by it other than drilling me with questions. But today he's still thinking about it and seems upset. One of his complaints after the bomb was that I don't tell him anything (there was a stupid fight he was trying to pick because we both ended up renting movies without telling each other, but I was at fault because I didn't tell him). But why should I tell him my whole schedule (as empty as it is)? He wants to keep taps on me and what I do (even though he says he doesn't care), yet when it comes to him, he doesn't want to say anything and does what he wants.
I don't know how to start this post other than say that I completely lost it! It was a wild and emotional disaster. I'm not proud of what happened. I broke quite a few of the 37 rules. Here it goes:
I had a really good night on Friday with my meet up group. Had dinner and drinks and was really able to laugh and enjoy myself. But when I got home and saw that H had exchanged texts with OW I completely lost control of myself. H was sleeping on the couch and I went up to him and turned on the light. When he opened his eyes I said a few things...something like: "I'm f'ing done with you and I hope you'll be f'ing happy with OW", and then I stormed off and went to the bedroom.
H came right in and wanted to know what was going on. I told him to leave me alone, but he wouldn't. Then, I completely lost it. I don't remember all that was said, but I was crying uncontrollably, called him a few names; called OW a lot of names. I don't usually swear, only when I'm really upset.
H was defensive, kept saying that he thought we were done. I told him that we were still married and he had no right to go and do all that stuff. I told him to go away and hope that he'll find happiness elsewhere.
That went on for a while. A lot more things were said. I slapped him across the face. It was a reflex and happened before I knew what I was doing. H didn't go away. He grabbed me and held me tight as I was crying and almost hypervantilating.
I felt really bad because that woke S4 and when he saw me cry he got very upset. At one point H asked S4 to climb onto our bed and H hugged both of us.
Eventually I calmed down and H started kissing me, and it turned to ML. H ended up falling asleep with his arm around me.
Saturday morning was "good". We talked more; I was calm. More ML. We all spent the whole day together. There were times when it seemed that H wanted a future together. There were also times where he was deep in thought and questioning everything.
Saturday evening H wanted to play a "game" by asking each other questions about one another that we should know. We did pretty well being able to answer most of them. But then over the weekend he said that we don't know each other anymore several times. I asked him why he thought that. He said that we just know factual things. Later he said that he can't predict me anymore.
There were a few things H said over the weekend that gave me some hope. H said we need to get new rings. I asked him why, and he said "Fresh start". H said he was looking for a new job with more money for "us". H also talked about wanting to get a new car. I said that when he gets a new job, then we could talk about. But he said if he gets a new job, then it's time we have another kid.
H said I'm not getting a cat (I had mentioned to him a week ago that I was thinking about one). The next day he was looking up cats that are up for adoption and said that we'd need to get 2.
I'm still trying to understand what happened this weekend. I know I did some major backsliding. I said A LOT of things I shouldn't have. I acted the way I shouldn't have. I let him know how much I knew. I let him see how hurt I am (thus probably showing my weakness). He asked why I didn't fight for him then. I said that I thought he was right there with me, that I didn't think I needed to fight for him.
I still don't know where things are between H and I. He is still questioning what he wants. H asked what we do now, how do we move forward. I honestly don't know. I told him we should taking things slowly, take one day at a time. He said he doesn't want to take one day at a time. He "needs" to know now that it will work. He doesn't believe we will work out. I showed him the Retrouvaille website. He wasn't against it, but said that he doesn't know if he can commit to it because of potential work travel.
As for me, I know I need to slow things down. I know I need to throw out the expectations I have at the moment.
Communication between us has improved somewhat since my blow up. H is calling and emailing more. There is a little more affection between us. H "seems" to care more. But there are still plenty of times where it looks like his mind is elsewhere.
Yesterday, I dropped S4 off at MIL's and went to Barnes Noble for coffee and to hang out. I didn't stay too long, but when I was back home already H called and asked if I was still there 'cause he was heading in that direction and was going to stop by. Darn, I missed that opportunity.
I had a GYN appt this morning and told them about some emotional stuff that's been happening. I felt like I got a mini counseling session. The dr. was very good at listening and asked a lot of questions; asked if I felt like I needed medicine; said there is additional counseling available at the office if I need it. She asked if I wanted to do an STD screening. Though H said he wasn't physical with OW, I agreed to do the screening just to be sure.
Sorry for the long post. I feel like I need to be accountable for my loss of control and backsliding. I could use some advise on how to move forward.
(((nh))) - First, thank you for your post this morning. I'm sorry you had a bad night Friday. (Was it a full moon or something?) Yes, you broke alot of the 37 rules. But you know what they were. And being that I did kinda the same thing, I can't throw any 2x4s your way.
I'm glad Saturday and Sunday turned out to be better days. Seems like you may have turned a corner, but I'd take it slow. Everyone keeps reminding me to have no expectations, so I'll tell you the same thing.(HA! Look at me giving you advice when I can't even take my own!) I know its hard, but I it seems to help in the long run.
I'm so afraid of asking my husband to go to Retrouvaille. I hope you guys get to go. H has said no to MC, so I doubt he'll go to that. But I'm keeping hope alive!
I hope today turns out to be a great day for you!
I don't know how to start this post other than say that I completely lost it! It was a wild and emotional disaster. I'm not proud of what happened. I broke quite a few of the 37 rules.
This has happened to all of us from time to time.
Don't beat yourself up about it too badly.
And now, for the bad news...
when I got home and saw that H had exchanged texts with OW
Were you snooping?
That is a total no no.
You will never gain anything good from snooping.
If you weren't snooping then can you explain how you knew this happened?
I'm still trying to understand what happened this weekend.
You took a ride on the rollercoaster.
It wasn't the first time and it probably won't be the last.
I am sorry that you went through this however, it fits with a lot of other things you have thought and said.
You may want to venture over into the MLC forum and get to know some people. The support there is amazing. (It's amazing here too, just a little different).
Definately do the STD screening. You don't know what he has or has not done and you have to protect yourself.
Just please, be prepared for whatever results you receive. You have had unprotected sex with him.
He asked why I didn't fight for him then. I said that I thought he was right there with me, that I didn't think I needed to fight for him.
My X asked me once, long after the bomb, why
I didn't want him. I am not the one who dropped the bomb or was unwilling to try to work on the M. However I was still the one at fault for the M falling apart.
H asked what we do now, how do we move forward. I honestly don't know.
He is looking to you to provide answers for him. Just like when he asked for "permission" to go away for the weekend.
I could use some advise on how to move forward.
I would proceed with caution, continuing on the path that you have been on.
It doesn't sound to me like this is over yet. He hasn't said that he wants to reconcile, he hasn't said it is over with OW, he hasn't said he doesn't want to reconcile. He simply doesn't know.
What do you want? What would need to change in order for you to work on this R with your H?
I have seen nothing about that here.
NewRussiaMom
I am so sorry you suffered so much Friday night. I had this weird thought about how I was at the bonfire in my backyard Friday night while at the same time you were in M hell. I really feel bad for you.
It sounds like your H has not completely left the reservation. I'll never understand how someone can find someone else before knowing for sure whether they can fix their own M. I mean how can your H ask why you didn't fight for him then? If another W was in the picture why didn't he fight for you then? He's the one that had the OW, you didn't have another guy. I would think that would mean he would be aware of a problem first. Of course this is only logic and in no way figures into what a WAS will do.
You reacted as any horribly wounded creature would and you should not beat yourself up on top of already getting beaten up by your H's sitch. Sometimes, despite the DB game, pure unbridled truth and pain helps get to the heart of the issue. Maybe this outburst actually helped.
I hope so.
((((((((NH)))))))))))))))
(((((( NH ))))))
sounds like the backsliding may have given you momentum to trek up the hill again.
nh, don't beat yourself up, it happens. I had a moment like that last week. You've gotten advice from senior members here, but I would also say to proceed with caution. It sounds like your H was jolted by your melt down, but please realize that as suddenly as he started talking about a "fresh start," he may stop and go back to where he was before. Because his about-face seems to be in response to extreme emotion or fear, it may not last when all the emotions have calmed down. Or it may. You just don't know yet.
I am a little concerned that he doesn't want to take it one day at a time and wants to know "right now" if it will work. It doesn't seem like he is willing to work with uncertainty or to face the tough issues in your marriage or in his life. If he just wants an instant fix, what will happen when you have a fight, or he has some doubts, or he sees the OW and wonders "what if?" Will he immediately think, "well, I gave it a shot and it's not working out"?
I think your impulse to take it slowly is a good one, and I really hope this leads to a reconciliation that you are happy with.
Mimi
cat04- Thank you for your feedback. You were not harsh enough though
I'm still expecting a 2x4.
I don't know how to start this post other than say that I completely lost it! It was a wild and emotional disaster. I'm not proud of what happened. I broke quite a few of the 37 rules.
This has happened to all of us from time to time.
Don't beat yourself up about it too badly.
I may have had one too many drinks while I was out. I think that contributed to not being able to hold back my anger. Still no excuse, just a fact.And now, for the bad news...
when I got home and saw that H had exchanged texts with OW
Were you snooping?
That is a total no no.
You will never gain anything good from snooping.
If you weren't snooping then can you explain how you knew this happened?
Yes, I was snooping. I checked the phone bill when I got home.I'm still trying to understand what happened this weekend.
You took a ride on the rollercoaster.
It wasn't the first time and it probably won't be the last.
I am sorry that you went through this however, it fits with a lot of other things you have thought and said.
You may want to venture over into the MLC forum and get to know some people. The support there is amazing. (It's amazing here too, just a little different).
I will check out the MLC forum, thanks. I'm scared that it may be MLC, and I'm scared how long it may take him to "come out of it", if at all.Definately do the STD screening. You don't know what he has or has not done and you have to protect yourself.
Just please, be prepared for whatever results you receive. You have had unprotected sex with him.
He asked why I didn't fight for him then. I said that I thought he was right there with me, that I didn't think I needed to fight for him.
My X asked me once, long after the bomb, why
I didn't want him. I am not the one who dropped the bomb or was unwilling to try to work on the M. However I was still the one at fault for the M falling apart.
H asked what we do now, how do we move forward. I honestly don't know.
He is looking to you to provide answers for him. Just like when he asked for "permission" to go away for the weekend.
I don't know what to do next. I don't want to tell him how things should be. I told him that we both need to figure it out together. H thinks that we shouldn't need outside help, that we should have been able to figure things out and not let it all come to this. I suggested we start "dating", that we get to know each other again. H said he thinks it's daunting to him. I could use some advise on how to move forward.
I would proceed with caution, continuing on the path that you have been on.
It doesn't sound to me like this is over yet. He hasn't said that he wants to reconcile, he hasn't said it is over with OW, he hasn't said he doesn't want to reconcile. He simply doesn't know.
What do you want? What would need to change in order for you to work on this R with your H?
I have seen nothing about that here.
I admit that I have some expectations when I shouldn't have any. I would like it if we went to MC together. I would like it if he went to IC. I would like it if he showed even the littlest sign that he wants to work with me, that he does want a future together. I would like it if he stopped contact with OW. I would like it if he said that what he did was not ok (I know, it's crazy for me to want that, but I would feel a million times better if he said it was a mistake. So yeah, I have a lot of expectations. I'm tired and I don't want to walk this path alone.
RoRoin - Thanks for your support! It's ok, you can still throw a 2x4 my way. I need it. I wasn't ready to mention Retrouvaille to H until yesterday when he asked me what we should do. Honestly, I expected him to dismiss it, and I'm surprised he didn't say anything. Maybe there's a little hope that he may come around.
Rick - I would have preferred a bonfire over h3ll, yes. It felt like something took control of me. It wasn't the pleading, begging kind of thing. I just went ballistic on H and told him off. I guess I was frustrated and angry and needed him to know. And the slap on the face, well he deserved it. I didn't really want to say or do those things, I just buried myself in the blanket and pillow and told him to leave me alone. Of course, he didn't. I still can't get over how he thinks we "were over". He could have shared that piece of information with me before opening up his heart to someone else.
BF - I don't know exactly what this backsliding did, but it sure disrupted the "calm" waters.
Mimi - Thanks for the support! I'm right there with you about being concerned that he doesn't want to take things slowly. He contradicts himself so much. Nobody knows what future will bring. How can you have any kind of certainty. Words don't make things reality. I'm afraid, too, that if things do start getting better and we do end up in a disagreement, that he'll say "Ha, I knew it." That's totally something he would do. And he sees OW EVERY DAY at work. They talk EVERY DAY. Even if work related and if he decided to reconcile, how can he keep doing that and not have any kind of thoughts about it - whether good or bad?
Regardless what happens and how slow or quick things move, at least I feel like maybe he still does care about me. He could have easily walked out, but instead he held me tight. Maybe it gives me another surge of strength to want to keep going.
cat04- Thank you for your feedback. You were not harsh enough though
I'm still expecting a 2x4.
I can give you one if you if you really want
I am curious, what do YOU think you did that deserves a 2x4 and why?
I would love to see what you would say if it were someone else's post.
Yes, I was snooping. I checked the phone bill when I got home.
Did what you saw hurt?
I bet it did. Ok I know it did.
Did it get you anywhere?
I mean you already knew there was OW. Why do you keep pouring salt on your own wounds?
Don't snoop unless you are trying to build ammo for a D.
All it does is hurt you.
If there are things you need to know, you will find out.
If you need a real 2x4 about this topic, I will hunt two great ones down tomorrow and post them on your thread LOL.
I will check out the MLC forum, thanks. I'm scared that it may be MLC, and I'm scared how long it may take him to "come out of it", if at all.
Don't worry about the what if's for now.
He may be, he may not be, but you will get some great (different) perspective over there.
And you will have friends from here follow you there and vice versa. So...
I don't know what to do next. I don't want to tell him how things should be. I told him that we both need to figure it out together. H thinks that we shouldn't need outside help, that we should have been able to figure things out and not let it all come to this. I suggested we start "dating", that we get to know each other again. H said he thinks it's daunting to him.
You don't tell him what to do next. He needs to figure that out.
It isn't easy but you aren't his mother and you don't have all of the answers to clean up the mess that he has created.
That is his job to figure out.
I admit that I have some expectations when I shouldn't have any. I would like it if we went to MC together. I would like it if he went to IC. I would like it if he showed even the littlest sign that he wants to work with me, that he does want a future together. I would like it if he stopped contact with OW. I would like it if he said that what he did was not ok (I know, it's crazy for me to want that, but I would feel a million times better if he said it was a mistake. So yeah, I have a lot of expectations. I'm tired and I don't want to walk this path alone.
What is YOUR plan when your expectations for HIS actions don't work out?
Happy Valentines Day NH! Hope you find a way to lead a fulfilled happy life!
Happy V-Day to an impressive woman and a beautiful soul!! Wrap yourself in the love you receive from your sweet baby boy!
I'm renaming it Victory-Day for all us LBsers!!!
cat04- Thank you for your feedback. You were not harsh enough though
I'm still expecting a 2x4.
I can give you one if you if you really want
I am curious, what do YOU think you did that deserves a 2x4 and why?
I would love to see what you would say if it were someone else's post.
I guess I'm mostly disappointed with myself for losing control. I have been fairly calm about things and I thought that I was doing well keeping my head high and not reacting. But seeing the text exchange between H and OW triggered a bad reaction. I could have handled it calmer, but instead I took the "FU" approach. I don't know if it was just too much hurt and anger built up that I was suppressing or what, but it burst out of me.Yes, I was snooping. I checked the phone bill when I got home.
Did what you saw hurt?
I bet it did. Ok I know it did.
Did it get you anywhere?
I mean you already knew there was OW. Why do you keep pouring salt on your own wounds?
Don't snoop unless you are trying to build ammo for a D.
All it does is hurt you.
If there are things you need to know, you will find out.
If you need a real 2x4 about this topic, I will hunt two great ones down tomorrow and post them on your thread LOL.
I know. I really am only pouring salt on the wounds and it hurts.I will check out the MLC forum, thanks. I'm scared that it may be MLC, and I'm scared how long it may take him to "come out of it", if at all.
Don't worry about the what if's for now.
He may be, he may not be, but you will get some great (different) perspective over there.
And you will have friends from here follow you there and vice versa. So...
I don't know what to do next. I don't want to tell him how things should be. I told him that we both need to figure it out together. H thinks that we shouldn't need outside help, that we should have been able to figure things out and not let it all come to this. I suggested we start "dating", that we get to know each other again. H said he thinks it's daunting to him.
You don't tell him what to do next. He needs to figure that out.
It isn't easy but you aren't his mother and you don't have all of the answers to clean up the mess that he has created.
That is his job to figure out.
I admit that I have some expectations when I shouldn't have any. I would like it if we went to MC together. I would like it if he went to IC. I would like it if he showed even the littlest sign that he wants to work with me, that he does want a future together. I would like it if he stopped contact with OW. I would like it if he said that what he did was not ok (I know, it's crazy for me to want that, but I would feel a million times better if he said it was a mistake. So yeah, I have a lot of expectations. I'm tired and I don't want to walk this path alone.
What is YOUR plan when your expectations for HIS actions don't work out?
I have put some thought into life without H. I don't know how long I should/can wait until I've had enough. I know everything is still relatively new, just under 3 months since the bomb, but I don't know how long I can go on like this. The constant flip-flopping and pessimism rubs off on me. I try to stay as positive as I can, but I can only be rejected so many times until I feel that I really do deserve better.
Thanks Rick and Purg! I hope you both had a great day!
I'm off to draw myself a bath and have a glass of wine
Yesterday was just like any other day, except I felt that it was okay to eat a lot of chocolate.
S4 got hurt right before I picked him up from daycare. He fell on his arm and was complaining about his elbow. We headed to urgent care to make sure it wasn't broken, and I called H to let him know. He was on his way home and said he'd meet us there.
Luckily, nothing is broken. S4 is in a sling and I'm hanging out at home with him today as he's complaining about moving it too much.
The experience with H at urgent care was so much different than 1 1/2 ago (a month post bomb) when we took S4 to the ER. Then, he was on his phone texting the whole time, had the shark eyes, kept his distance from us, and just did not want to be there.
Last night was so different: he was concerned, acted like a parent, didn't use his phone once!!!!! He left before us to go to his soccer game, but he wanted to make sure that S4 was okay first.
I didn't see H until I was in bed already. After S4 was in bed, I I lit some candles, took a nice hour long bubble bath while sipping some wine. Next time, I'll add music, but last night was good to just relax.
S4 woke up in the middle of the night complaining about his arm. One of the times H got up(!!!!) and hobbled over to his room (H got hurt again at soccer). H hasn't gotten up with S4 for at least 2 years!!
Good to see that your H still knows how to be a dad
I know you've been frustrated and hurt by his recent interactions with S4. It must have warmed your heart a little to see him showing his care and love for S4... AND he got up in the middle of the night?! Maybe he's coming around to realize his actions affect S4 more than he thought
My oldest broke his wrist at preschool when he was 3. I was lucky enough to be the director at the preschool so there was no delay in me finding out and getting him to the ER. He was more scared about getting an x-ray that he was about his wrist! Not sure if yours is this same way: but my S quickly learned that he could get whatever he wanted if he complained about his wrist... And he milked it for a while- even tried after it was healed!! These little boys love to be pampered... And us mommies love to do it!!
FWIW: I think it's a good thing that he responded like he did (as any dad should) after you had your blow up this past weekend.... Any ill effects don't seemed to have lingered long.
Have a good day with S4.... For mine, jello and a funny movie were the best medicine
my son hates jello. can you imagine?? what kid hates jello??
if anyone has the ability to affect your H, it will be your S. magical powers those little beings have..
BF, my son's not a big fan of jello either. Went back to the doctors 2 days later. Turns out S4 does have a hairline fracture in his arm and his elbow was slightly dislocated. He now has his very first cast (yellow with blue stripes), but he's taking it very well.
I'd like to think that things are slowly getting better between H and I, that maybe we are heading in the right direction. We still have a long way to go, but I've been seeing many little improvements and many more glimpses of my "old" H. It seems as though he maybe slowly coming out of "it"? I've been seeing a more affection from him (even if in smallest forms), we've been intimate, teasing each other, and his overall appearance and actions are more on the positive side.
He still doesn't wear his wedding ring, doesn't say ILY, hasn't mentioned where things are between us, what he wants or thinks.
Yesterday was a pretty important day for me. I had my oath ceremony and became a citizen! H came, as did MIL, S4, and a friend. It must have been awkward for H to sit with MIL and my friend. She knows about our sitch, and this was the first time he's seen her since the bomb.
At the end of the ceremony we went through a congratulatory line where family could join us. H and S4 came up and we all went together. We shook hands with the governor and the judge, and other representatives from congressional offices and other organizations. Too bad nobody remembered to grab the camera. Doh! We could have gotten a picture of us as a family with the governor.
After the ceremony H left and went back to work. MIL, my friend and S went out for an early lunch. H texted in the middle of the day and asked what we were doing for dinner. I gave him a couple of options and said we could go out as well. As always, he didn't make a decision and said he didn't care. I was hoping he'd want to go out and celebrate my new citizenship, but didn't say anything. When he got home, he said he felt like steak, so we ended up going out and had a good time.
H slept on the couch again for the past 2 nights, which irritated me quite a bit. I ended up asking why, and he said it was because of his back and that the bed hurts his back.
Now he's off to a weekend away at a casino. He said he was going with a friend from soccer and his friends. I wish he'd stay with us, but I understand that he wants to go and have fun, and he hasn't really taken vacation or done anything fun in a year. S4 and I were sitting on the couch when he was leaving and after hugging and kissing S4 good bye, he actually leaned in and gave me a kiss as well. No ILY, but a kiss. I'll take it.
Congratulations, NH! What a proud day for you and us! I proudly welcome you to being a citizen of the US of A.
Yeah!!!! Congrats!!! So happy for you
What crazy 'American' thing will you do this weekend? Lol! Maybe watch all the Rocky movies? Some people would claim you're 'not a real American' until you have.
Try (easier said than done) to not think about what je's doing at the casino. Look at S4, in his cool cast, and do something out of the ordinary- just for the 2 of you... Ice cream sundaes, go 'camping' in the living room complete with roasting marshmallows over a construction paper fire....enjoy yourselves!
Again, congratulations on citizenship!!
Thanks LA and Purg! It is pretty exciting! I almost feel like a new person.
Purg, I'm doing ok not thinking about what H is doing at the casino. Though I'm a little disappointed that he didn't even call or text to say that he got there ok, or to say good night to S4.
I love your ideas of doing something out of the ordinary! We have no plans today, so we'll have to think of something to fill it with cool stuff.
NHMomma - our country just get better with you as a citizen. Congratulations!
Wishing you well from next door in MA.
How was your weekend?? Hope you found a way to do something fun with S4!
Thanks guys! I feel very honored to be a new citizen and feel like I have many obligations and responsibilities to fulfill!
My weekend was good. We didn't do anything spectacular. I did make mickey mouse shaped chocolate chip pancakes one morning. S4 appreciate that. We did have ice cream before lunch!!! (thanks Purg...lol) Went to a park, went out to dinner with a friend, watched movies, and dropped S4 at MIL's so that I could go the mall for a couple of hours.
H came back from his casino weekend last night. He did end up calling to check in on Sunday just to say hi. It was a a very brief call, but he called nonetheless. I didn't know what time he was planning to come home yesterday and was starting to get a little irritated that he wouldn't at least text (I know, drop the expectations!!). He did end up texting to say that they were still there and he didn't know what time he'd be home as some people wanted to gamble some more. He sounded irritated that he had to wait for them.
He then texted me when they were about to leave, and called when he was almost home. S4 and I were grocery shopping when he called and he asked what we were having for dinner. I told him fish tacos, and he said that I had read his mind. It seems as though at least 4 out of his 5 FB posts were about food (what I was making for dinner and that he liked it). Hmmm, I guess there is some truth to the saying that the way to a man's heart is through his stomach?
H was already home when S4 and I got home from grocery shopping. He picked up S4 and came over and hugged me! Ha! He missed me (thought he didn't say it)!!
The rest of the night was pleasant. We watched TV (though he was on his iPad for the most part) and I was glad for some funny shows...at least I could laugh and didn't have to act "as if".
A noticeable change for him: between the shows he asked whether WE should move to the bedroom and watch TV there. Usually, he would tell me that HE was going to bed. He was tired from his trip and really just wanted to fall asleep, but I couldn't overlook the fact that he asked me to go the bedroom, too!
Maybe he's relearning to appreciate this fine young american W he has.
Maybe he's relearning to appreciate this fine young american W he has.
Ha! Wouldn't that be something!
A little musical inspiration:
"I Won't Give Up" - Jason Mraz
When I look into your eyes
It's like watching the night sky
Or a beautiful sunrise
There's so much they hold
And just like them old stars
I see that you've come so far
To be right where you are
How old is your soul?
I won't give up on us
Even if the skies get rough
I'm giving you all my love
I'm still looking up
And when you're needing your space
To do some navigating
I'll be here patiently waiting
To see what you find
'Cause even the stars they burn
Some even fall to the earth
We've got a lot to learn
God knows we're worth it
No, I won't give up
I don't wanna be someone who walks away so easily
I'm here to stay and make the difference that I can make
Our differences they do a lot to teach us how to use
The tools and gifts we got yeah, we got a lot at stake
And in the end, you're still my friend at least we did intend
For us to work we didn't break, we didn't burn
We had to learn how to bend without the world caving in
I had to learn what I've got, and what I'm not
And who I am
I won't give up on us
Even if the skies get rough
I'm giving you all my love
I'm still looking up
Still looking up.
I won't give up on us (no I'm not giving up)
God knows I'm tough enough (I am tough, I am loved)
We've got a lot to learn (we're alive, we are loved)
God knows we're worth it (and we're worth it)
I won't give up on us
Even if the skies get rough
I'm giving you all my love
I'm still looking up
This was hard to read emotionally ^^^^^^^
I know this song ALL to well....
is someone cutting onions?
Oh, for crying out loud...what is wrong with me? Things seem as if they are slowly starting to look up, but no, that's not enough for me. I can't be patient and let things run their course. I have to go ahead and bring stuff up that bothers me. Ugh.
I told H that it bothered me that he is still friends with OW on FB. H told me to let it go and that there is nothing there.
I ask him how do I know for sure that nothing is there? And that I can't accept their "friendship" if things between us should get better.
I told him I was sorry that he values their "friendship" more than our marriage. H said that he does value our marriage, but I have hurt him more than I'll ever know. And that being friends on FB doesn't mean you're friends in real life. Why is it a big deal to unfriend her then? I don't want to see her fugly face if I happen to be on his FB page (BklynMom - I can already hear you tell me to get off FB!!!).
I told him that I understand he's hurt and that I'm owning up to it and will continue to do so. But I feel that he hasn't owned up to his actions. Maybe he will one day, maybe he won't.
I told him that I'd like for us to put the past behind us and work together to make things better, that I would help him get through his pain that I caused him. But I also need him to help me get through what I need to get through.
H again told me I had no right to feel a certain way when I was feeling stressed, to cope in a "different" way. He clearly still has a lot of anger and hurt built up.
FWIW, he said that he's noticed an improvement in me letting him parent our S4 (I don't think I really did anything...I think it's that he's actually been here and showed interest in S4).
H said that I can't expect H to do this on my terms. And that I know him - he needs to do it on his terms. The thing is that he really does need to talk to a C. He's got so many emotions built up over his lifetime that he can't cope with them alone. I hope that one day he'll realize that it's worth a try.
H said this morning that it's been a long time, but he actually missed me this past weekend.
Now that I've said too much and am playing with fire with what I bring up, I need to practice keeping my mouth shut and also not showing my emotions on my face. H can read me like a book.
Oh, and he did say this morning that he wants to take one day at a time. This is good. A couple of weeks ago he said that he didn't want to take one day at a time and needed to know right away whether we would work out, and that he "knew" we wouldn't.
nh - I still feel like I haven't gotten this DB stuff down, so take what I am saying with a grain of salt. I am so feeling you on being impatient. I was doing so good at keeping my mouth shut until this weekend.
I know it's going to be hard, but try to take one day at a time. (I tell myself this everyday) If your H is still hurt and angry, pushing him to answer questions doesn't help your sitch. I know that for a fact.
You are doing really good. Just pick back up and keep moving!
Hey NH, we all fall off the wagon. "Fall down 7. Get up 8" Don't beat yourself up too bad. Your struggle is common and one of the most difficult.
I'm struggling with the reality of an OM with my W as well. Its extremely hard to let it go and trust that improving myself will be a better course than forcing my W to see how she hurts me and to change. I struggle between wanting "justice" and wanting to save my marriage.
This woman is no competition for you. Whatever your H may find appealing is a fantasy that will come crashing down at some point.
As hard as it is, work on you and let your H work at his pace. You can't rush him. Sounds like he's making some positive moves. Patience is critical and forgiveness is essential to keep things moving in a good direction. But both require a constant and determined choice on your part. And there most certainly will be obstacles from both of you.
As with much of DB, it counter-intuitive but it is the way you can fight for your M.
Good luck!
NewAmericanMom - sometimes its worth getting stuff out there even if it causes emotional reactions by both. I just had this discussion with my W this morning. You have to accept that in a M you're going to hear stuff that doesn't go down easy, however those converdsations are often a catalyst for growth, reflections, awarenss, new action.
If the other S can have enough patience to hear these things that they dont necessarily like, however realize that these are opportunities for growth and understanding of each other, then these are actually the best moments between you because they can be markers for where growth and understanding begin.
FWIW I think you and your H are flritng with being able to understand each other. He could have blown you off totally these past few weeks but doesn't appear to want that. Maybe outline a few things that you both can work on right now and keep it simple for a while longer.
((((you)))))
You're right, Rick. I think it's good to "share". H needs to hear some of my concerns, too. And even though he seems to dismiss any of my feelings, I hope he is still taking mental notes of some kind.
Right now he still makes it out to be all about him. That's fine. I hope one day he'll realize that I'm a human being with feelings, too. And that he's dragged me through mud in the past few months. He was the one who decided to have an EA and still doesn't seem think there is anything wrong with it. He thinks he is the victim and I'm the villain. I'm getting tired being portrayed as a monster. We do have a long road ahead of us. (sigh)
The conversation ended with H telling me that he doesn't know if he will ever forgive me, because he was sure I would not let us get to this point. Well, if he wants to move forward, he will have to do that eventually. But for now - baby steps.
The conversation ended with H telling me that he doesn't know if he will ever forgive me, because he was sure I would not let us get to this point.
WTF????
Yeah, no kidding, labug! This is the kind of blame I've had to deal with since the bomb. It is all MY fault. Apparently, it was up to ME to make sure that our M was perfect. I am the one that failed.
While I admit that I had my fair share in this: I may not have filled his love tank and not given him enough attention. I was going through a stressful time and didn't cope well. But hey, it doesn't matter, I didn't put H first, so it's all my fault. (I hope you can sense come sarcasm here - I don't really think it's all MY fault).
Well, at least H said that he doesn't "know" if he can forgive me. At least it wasn't a straight "I'm NEVER going to forgive you". I told him he'll have to eventually if he wants to move forward. He may not be ready now, but he will need to do it one day.
Our conversation sort of continued for a bit when he got home. H brought up that I'm friends with my old boyfriend on FB, and that we have history. I told him that I have no problem with un-friending him, and our "history" goes back before H and I even met.
H said I need to trust him. (Ha!) I told him that it will take time for me to do that. (He lied to me. He had an EA. I know they were communicating via FB a lot, so to have that line of communication still open is not helping it me with trust. And he still texts her outside of work hours even though he says it has nothing to do with "us". I said I don't care if they talk about the weather, it's just not okay).
I told H that not knowing what is going on can make my mind go wild. H said: "I'm still here, aren't I?". I said I don't know what that means. A couple of weeks ago he was still looking for apartments, he still has contact with OW, he's not wearing his ring, so I don't know what anything means.
I think it was good to get some of the stuff out (in a calm way). Though he didn't come out and say it, I think he really is taking steps to wanting to make it work. Maybe he is starting to realize that he does have a lot to lose, but he's scared to let himself open up and get hurt again.
He is still reluctant and scared, but I think he's sloooooowly getting there. I'm also learning that showing some signs of frustration on my end makes him *show* that he does care (sort of like a temp check for me). If I try to turn away, he will hug me, or try to make me look at him again.
It was kind of funny that when he came home last night I was making dinner and chopping some veggies. He made me put the knife down as we talked, and kept me from picking it up a few times when I felt frustrated and just wanted to keep chopping. I guess after I slapped him during my big blow up, he *might* be afraid I may *do* something.
It's amazing how the WAS justifies an EA. If you don't like it, you're just pushing them further away according to their logic, but if you accept it then the M is over. It's such a mental and emotional trap dealing with it.
It does sound like you two are heading in the right direction, just at your H's pace.
Don't be surprised if you come home one day, and your H has hid all knives and scissors in the house! Lol- we know you would never do something like that.... or would you
Like Rick said, it DOES seem like y'all are moving in a positive direction, just do it S..L..O..W..L..Y.
It's good that H is responsive to your frustrations, instead of ignoring them completely. Yes, it is beyond frustrating how they can twist and manipulate conversations and actions to blame us- but we here in DB land are smart enough to know that it's their way of convincing themselves that they are right in their choice to leave... afterall, if they (God forbid) gave us a compliment or admitted that they were wrong in any capacity, then their perfect book of "I have every reason to be angry and leave this M" would go up in flames.
You've got a great head on your shoulders and you are a wonderful mom!
"H has has been very loving father towards S4 up until recently. Always helped out with anything, from getting up in the middle of the night to changing diapers. He has admitted on a few occasions that he is jealous of S4 and that I put all of my energy towards S4. I don't disagree with him, I know I should have balanced it out better than I have."
NH, lots of good stuff here. I didn't get a chance to read all of it yet, but definitely wanted to comment on the quote, and a few other things.
I believe Father-son jealousy is a common condition. My parents divorced when I was six, and my mother would always say, "Your father was always jealous of you." It sort of made me feel like the Golden child. Your s4 is obviously a very bright, special little boy--and it's very common for women to idolize their son(s), so perhaps that's an area that you could do a 180.
I read your posts up until Mohegan--which was in December before Christmas--Here are my thoughts about those happenings. First--congratulations on ML! That's huge. I haven't had the opportunity to do that with my wife since Oct 17th...but I'm still alive and well.
It seems like your h is going through a mid-life crisis. Since the birth of your son, he's not feeling as though he's getting as much love as he used to. Perhaps I should say attention there not love. Because, as we all know having children changes everything.
I recommend if you haven't done this already, go out on a date--ask him if he wants to go. Hire a sitter, etc. Go out and have a good time.
I do have a big question though...with OW--was there anything physical there that you know of? You mentioned earlier that you had been spying on his phone...I'd recommend you stop that--but I am a culprit of that myself. It's such tantalizing fruit--to peer into the phone to see what's going on.
I have to say on that matter, that last year, it really started to concern me when this other guy had 204 txts to my wife and I had like 300 something. I said, "This bastard's only known my wife a year, and he's almost caught up with me!" I'm sorry, I love everyone, but if you have to go chasing after someone's husband or wife, you've got issues! I'll leave it at that.
Ohh, I don't know if you bought a cat yet--but instead of buying one, you could try to adopt a neighbor cat, by leaving food out back? Hopefully that way you'll find a nice neighbor cat that you don't have to take responsibility for, but your s can still feel like he has a pet. Just an idea.
Last thing--not sure if you tried a coach yet, but maybe you should sign on for one session. It might be worth it. You're definitely still at a decent point in your relationship (not at defcon 4 like I was at the beginning of the year.--I know it's still really tough, but you can use a lot of other techniques because the two of you are still (as of 12/20) still living together, and communicating to a decent degree.
Hope this is still topical. I'll try to read through the rest of your posts later this weekend.
by 180, I mean show a little more attention to husband, not stop loving your son...I didn't really proof read, what I posted. Hopefully it all makes sense.
Here I am again..having a hard time sticking to the DB principles. My emotions have been getting the best of me.
H came home last night while I was making dinner. Of course, my face has to let him know that I was thinking about something. He said: "What? I'm here. I'm home and I love you." And how do I respond? (get your 2x4's out)..."no, you don't (though in a joking way). Sigh. That was the first time he said it in about 3 months and he hasn't said it again since.
Had another one of those "talks" with H. I've been obsessing with the OW way more than I should. I guess I'm having a hard time seeing how unwilling H is to give up their "friendship".
Another thing that has been bothering me is the fact that H is still in denial. He still thinks that he didn't cheat. He doesn't think that having an EA and kissing OW is cheating! I told him over and over that it is and he has to accept that.
Last night was the first time that he actually said that it was a mistake.
I am not after punishing H. I don't want justice of any kind. All I want is for him to accept that what he did was wrong, to apologize to me, to break off unnecessary contact, and to promise me that it won't happen again...that he's learned from this mistake.
OW and H sit next to each other at work. They have to work closely together. I know he can't just quit his job and I have to accept that they have to have some degree of contact, but I just wish that he would limit it to just that.
H told me that I can't tell him who to be friends with. I told him I agreed, but what I can tell him is how I feel about it and it is up to him to respect my feelings or not. And right now he is choosing her "friendship" over my feelings. That stings.
I told him about the image I have burned into my memory of OW. A month before the bomb I had stopped at his office and I saw OW for the first time. She didn't say hi, H didn't introduce us. She just walked by and looked at me with a big ugly smile and kept walking. That was while things were still good before us, but now I know why she walked by...had to check out what was going on. I just can't seem to get that image of her out of my memory.
H said that he doesn't want to talk about it. He thinks that by not talking about it will make things go away and get better. I told him I disagreed and that we need to talk it out. If we ignore this now, things will not go away completely and will come back to haunt us (mainly me) down the road.
I asked H again why he wasn't wearing his wedding ring. He said he doesn't want to and that it's tainted. So I guess he'll never wear it again??
I don't know where my feelings are at this point. I feel better about letting him know that I hurt. I don't feel good about H not admitting that he cheated. I really wish he would agree to do MC.
My GAL activity today was to attend a first time home buyers class. It took all day and was quite tiring. H and S4 got to spend a whole day together (it's been a long time!!!). Now H has gone out and I'm curled up on the couch with a glass of wine.
Ok, here's your 2x4:
When he came home and said that statement, instead of
1.smiling
2.saying thanks
3.saying i love you too (which could be pursuing, but in this case might have been ok)
You punished him! Think of it like this: if your S4 made you a bowl of cereal and he was super proud of himself, you wouldn't point out to him that he made a mess in the process, would you? You wouldn't tell him to not do it again. You WOULD smile, give lots of praise and tell him it was the best breakfast you'd ever had- you would go over the top with thanks. And guess what, your S would probably do it again and again because he knew that he made you happy.
Do you think H had any reason to say anything like that statement he made again? You basically told him that you don't believe him (and you may not) but if you are still wanting to save your M, you've got to give him A LOT of credit when he does these things. Psychology 101: reinforce POSITIVE behaviors through acknowledgement and praise, ignore the negative ones.
I would give my right arm (because I'm left handed) to hear my H say something like that to me! I probably would have flown over the counter and ML to him in the doorway- not caring if anybody saw us b/c it would have made me the happiest person in the world in that moment.
Ok, now back to you. *You* are the one here and *you* are the one we care about.
Sadly, I don't have much to offer in regards to the OW issue. I am struggling with the same conflict of wanting to ignore it and move past it, but at the same time I want an apology and see some remorse from H. I just remember what 25 has told me: that it's not OUR job to show or teach them the error of their ways, life will do it for them. IMO- Life should hurry it's little @ss up!!!
I would give anything to have my H tell me he loves me. I cant even imagine him uttering those words again. Be grateful for what you have:)
NH - I have done exactly what you have done. In fact, many times before my H dropped the 1st bomb. I have tried not to since finding DB because it gets me nowhere. (When I do bring up OW, bad things happen..see my thread for details.)
Purg is right, you were punishing him. We're both blessed in that our H are still at home. Punishing him only pushes him closer to the OW and further away from you.
But Purg & BK question for you - H is at home, still has contact with OW, and tells us ILU. How are you supposed to react when you know about the OW? I keep wanting to ask him if he tells her the same thing? You can answer on my thread so I don't hijack NH's thread completely. LOL
NH, I can see how you backslid, but they are right - that was punishment. I am in awe of your and other's ability to stay as patient as you do with OW in the picture. There is an OM in my sitch, and I pushed W away with my snooping and comments and challenges about him, to him.
Just wanted to point out that you are doing a great job, but recovery as quickly as you can and get back to the right direction.
FL
I completely agree that I should have handled my response better. I guess I was just surprised by it. And also his tone was not the "I love you and I care about you" kind, it was more of a "Fine. I love you. Are you happy?" kind of tone. In which case, no, "I'm not happy". I don't want him to say anything if it isn't true. And if it is, then show a little more affection or at least use a tone that would make it more believing. Maybe if H even showed a little bit of remorse, then I may not so upset about things. I need to practice thought-stopping more.
I was re-reading some parts of the DR book today, specifically the the infidelity section. I'm trying to find ways to help me cope and get through this. Lots of good stuff there. When I read the book initially, I didn't know for sure about OW, so it was good to re-read this part from a slightly different perspective.
Finding a new perspective is always a good thing. The hardest thing I ever had to learn to do was to keep my mouth shut. In the beginning I had to literally scream at myself to STFU! As time went on, it modified to me having to walk away, then to just grinning through it... But now, I can usually get into the frame of mind to *respond* instead of *re-act* within a few minutes (most of the time.) I still get those moments where I want to yell or say something snotty- I still walk away and find something to distract me... usually coming to the boards!
Don't beat yourself up. We are all a work in progress and there is not a 'one size fits all' approach to every situation. You'll backslide, learn from it and do something different the next time. The important thing is to keep learning and *choosing* to look inward at what you want to change for you.
Check out my thread, there's a link you might like.
I'm still jealous that you got to hear ILY... But happy for you at the same time
Thanks, P! I'm trying to keep telling myself to STFU, but it's SO hard! It never used to be! If it was anyone else, I would totally STFU, but because it is my H, I can't do it so easily.
One issue I have is not being able to take compliments very well. Whenever my H or anyone else would compliment me on something, I would just decline it by saying it's nothing, or "no, I'm not". I guess it might be having too much humility. I'm trying to practice saying "thank you" whenever someone says something nice.
That said, this morning H gave me a compliment for the first time in I don't know how long. After I got ready to go to work and about to leave he told me that I looked pretty. And I said "thank you".
This is also the only thing he has said to me all morning, other than 'bye'.
Last night, he was in grumpy mood and told me that he just wants to be alone. So I left him alone and went to the bedroom and hadn't spoken to him since last night. When he sat down to eat breakfast, he just stared down into his cereal bowl as he ate.
Clearly, he is still stuck in his 'crisis tunnel'. He won't talk too much, won't look at me too much, still spends most of the time on his iPad. The only time he seems to show interest and be affectionate is when he wants to ML.
I've been feeling very hurt lately. My heart is literally aching. Sometimes I question how strong I really am, and how much longer I will allow myself to hurt. And I guess the "allowing myself to hurt" part is crucial. I am the responsible for letting myself feel the pain, responding to actions or words. Okay, we're back to detachment 101.
MoohampshireMom ....i still think there is a lot of reason to believe you two can work this out. Keep practicing keeping your vocal reactions in check...otherwise you will scare the squirrel away.
Of course he tells you he loves you....you're lovable. Accept what is true. He'll get it worked out...dont push back....accept it with grace
I am quickly reading your sitch and yes, I second what Rick says. You can work it out. But you will have to take the high road, be the lighthouse.
It seems like he is working things out inside his head. It will take time. Trust me, I've been there. It was a long, hard, painful journey, and still is. But slowly, we have been moving along the road to piecing. I see so many parallels in our sitch.
yes, allow yourself to feel the hurt. Scream and shout when you are alone. But i front of him, zip your lips and be the eoman he cannot leave.
Driving home from work today I saw a quote posted outside of some business that said: "Sometimes you have to take a step back in order to move forward."
Maybe the low "spell" that I've been feeling lately is my "step back". I feel like I'm on the verge of tears when I'm home. I try to stay positive, but this sadness overcomes me. When H was in his angry and hostile mode up until a few weeks ago, I felt angry at him for wanting to walk away. Now that he's not as angry and more on the fence with his emotions, I think it's the feeling of rejection that makes me sad. I think he's fully aware of what's going on and knows I how feel, yet he chooses to continue to do things that hurt me.
Before I drown myself in self-pity....another quote at the same business yesterday said "Whatever you are, be a good one." I'm starting to think that these are not there by chance and that I needed to see the messages.
Decided to take a bubble bath tonight, and I'm glad I did. I feel more relaxed now. Even though H won't talk and chooses to withdraw himself most of the time, he came into the bathroom and brought in a few of the fake tealights (that we got during our last power outage). I thought that was kind of a nice gesture.
I also want to say that I'm so grateful for my S4. I'm not sure what I'd do if I didn't have him. He tells me every day how much he loves me, and that I'm the best mommy he could ever wish for "in the whole wide world". The other day he was singing "you are my sunshine" to me...it made me tear up. Today, he wanted to cuddle with me and I sang 'you are my sunshine' to him. It's our favorite song. Afterwards, he told me that he will always be there for me. How sweet is my little boy?
Very sweet, and those are precious times. Enjoy them.
That is so beautiful. It made me teary. My kids are my lifeline. Watching them laugh and smile.. Makes my life worth it.
As for H bringing in candles (even the fake kind).. That is a sweet gesture. He could have easily chosen not to. Definitely a positive!!
Yes and Yes!
Your little guy is adorable!
I don't think it was a coincidence that you saw those messages.... Have you ever prayed for God to send you a sign? He sent you two!
I totally relate to how our children are the reason we keep going. It's seems like no matter what I'm feeling, I can put it all away for the sake of my kids. And they always seem to know when we need a hug!
The other day he was singing "you are my sunshine" to me...it made me tear up. Today, he wanted to cuddle with me and I sang 'you are my sunshine' to him. It's our favorite song
My W used to sing this to my boys in better times...waaaaaaah...it kills me to think about how much has changed.
I haven't posted in a couple of days, partly because I've had more blow-ups and I'm trying to get down to the issue and understand why I keep losing it.
I'm not going to post everything that went down a couple of nights ago, but basically H was chatting with OW on his iPad. As soon as I entered the room, he quickly closed the screen. That small sign of secrecy made me lose it. I threw my rings at him, told him to 'f off'. I don't usually swear, but that night I swore like a sailor.
H is still in denial. He thinks that kissing OW is not cheating, that having an EA is not cheating. H defended his "friendship" with OW, which in turn fueled my anger. It was not a good night. I think I told him a few times to get the f* out. I said a few things that made him very angry. At some point he grabbed me by my wrists as I was trying to get out. I threatened to call to cops if he didn't let go.
I told him I don't want to be a doormat, and he said that it's why he likes about me, that I'm strong willed and won't take any crap. I told him I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid.
H asked why I didn't fight for him like this before? I told him I didn't feel that I had to fight for him. I think what he means is that I didn't put that kind of effort and energy into our M before. I think him seeing me lose it like I have done a few times is almost making him see that I do care about him, but he doesn't know what to do with this information. He says he is trying to sort it all out in his head, trying to understand me, but says he doesn't know who I am anymore. H feels that he needs to know everything about me, including what I'm thinking.
A lot more things were said that I either don't remember or don't really want to write down. These blow ups are nasty. I feel so out of control, like I'm possessed or something. I can't stop saying what's on my mind. Why can't I control myself?
Believe it or not, in all that went down, I was able to grab some positives out of H. H said that I am "the best thing that happened to him". That H regrets kissing OW. Even if he doesn't admit that it falls under the cheating category, he seems to at least think that it was wrong.
We ended up falling asleep with his arm tightly wrapped around me.
Things "seem" to look up after these types of confrontations for a little while. But then he goes to work (and he works closely with OW), and when he comes home he always seems off.
H has a job interview next Tuesday. I could use all the prayers I could get. Maybe it could be a step towards moving forward. As long as he works with OW (and won't draw the line between business and inappropriate), I don't think I'll be able to move forward. I hate being stuck in this situation and there is nothing I can do. H is choosing his "friendship" with OW over our M. He would rather give up our 13 1/2 years together over some dumb girl he met just a few months ago who is "just a friend"?
H asked why I didn't fight for him like this before? I told him I didn't feel that I had to fight for him. I think what he means is that I didn't put that kind of effort and energy into our M before. I think him seeing me lose it like I have done a few times is almost making him see that I do care about him, but he doesn't know what to do with this information. He says he is trying to sort it all out in his head, trying to understand me, but says he doesn't know who I am anymore. H feels that he needs to know everything about me, including what I'm thinking.
This situation is so hard NhMom. IMO, you're much better off NOT letting H understand you or know everything about you. In fact, as long as OW is in the picture, the less he knows and understands the better. You need to make him feel out of control and not know what you're going to do.
After the adrenaline of an argument has worn off, you do get a rush of endorphins that make both you and H feel good -- it's "makeup chemistry". I've read that marriages characterized by arguments are often healthier because of this post-argument bonding. Right now for you, however, this is just letting H cake-eat. He's keeping you on the line while being able to continue with OW.
Everything he's saying there is cr@p. He is skillfully keeping you in pursuit mode. I would not trust any of it.
WRT kissing OW and having an EA not being cheating, he knows that's wrong. Turn the tables on him and see how he reacts (not really, but you get my point). Check out Pat Love's website. In the "Downloads" section there are a bunch of word documents and powerpoints that she uses for her seminars. Download the Word document about an "Office Spouse".
That document describes where the line is drawn, and what is over the line. Having a social conversation with a female co-worker at night on the iPad IMO is not acceptable.
My DB coach suggested downloading the Pat Love document and going through it with W to ensure understanding and agreement
specifically on where we draw the line.
As long as OW is involved, your best bet is detach, detach, detach. Emotional distance is your friend!
Accuray
Accuray - thanks for the Pat Love tip. I looked at the doc and it's so true. I also just started reading "Not 'Just Friends'" and it has some of the same questions. I wish I could show this stuff to H and prove him that I'm not paranoid, that he's crossed the line and what he's doing is completely inappropriate.
"WRT kissing OW and having an EA not being cheating, he knows that's wrong. Turn the tables on him and see how he reacts (not really, but you get my point).
I actually said something to that effect today, how would he feel if I did all of that. H replied by saying that if I did that, then we really weren't meant to be together. I wanted to ask him why I couldn't have a "special friend", but he had to go before I could say anything. Double standards, anyone?
I had a hair appointment tonight and left as soon as H got home from work. When I got home, he was very interested in seeing what I had done. He even followed me to the bathroom and kept talking about my hair, how he liked it, etc. Then he wanted to heat up dinner for me even though I said I could do it. I thought about having some wine, so he quickly went to grab a wine glass for me. I changed my mind and decided to have a beer instead.
After 20 mins of being home H went to go to a bar, because some of his soccer buddies were there. He even went as far as kissing me before he left. Guilty conscience, or what's up with being nice all of a sudden, especially since our last conversation wasn't left on a good note?
NH....your H is full of it....the WAS always tries to turn an affair back on you. Dont fall for it. I dont know how someone forgives a S's affair. Thats the one chapter in the DB book i havent finished.
Accurays comments makes very good sense.
Here's hoping the interview goes well.
IMO, sounds like a mix of guilt/regret or something. Or he could just be trying to keep things peaceful because he doesn't want to deal with the conflict.
Of course of other responses that could occur, this one's pretty good.
So how do you feel you need to respond?
He noticed your hair?! That's a good thing
I agree that he could be acting out of guilt. Or he might think that if he distracts you enough with compliments and good interactions, you won't talk about it.
Take his compliments and kisses... Be smart enough not to get pulled back in each time because you know that he's just trying to cover up for his indiscretions.
YOU are the better person
I am having the same thing...W has been nicer in the last 2 days and has been texting and reaching out.....but I have no interest right now, my IC seems to think she sees me moving on and is trying to pull me back in maybe due to troubles with OM. I feel you confusion, my only advice.....detach, DETACH.
Rick - H likes to share info about his bowel movements a lot. So today when he told me again, I told him that he's just full of s**t. (and I meant it...lol)
ces - yes, I do think it's a mix of emotions that he's going through. Honestly, I don't know how to respond. I am trying to be polite, but after I told him that I'm not ok with what he's doing and can't move forward until he breaks off contact w/ OW, which he still won't do...what do I do? I can't pretend I'm ok with it, and he knows I'm not.
Purg - it was a little funny how H followed me around like a puppy and was literally inspecting my hair.
mr mr - I was basically telling him that I can't go on like this. If he's going to get stuck in the past and won't make any effort towards forgiveness, then he needs to move on. Maybe letting him know that I'm close to throw in the towel is making him nervous, because he doesn't completely want to let go of me yet, but he also doesn't want to let go of OW either. What a confused creature he is.
Another funny thing he said tonight: He asked whether we should just go and teach in Korea. That was one of our dreams that we wanted to do when we just got out of college, but came back to the US after our semester abroad in China. My visa situation didn't allow me to be out of the country for that long without losing my status. Now that I'm a citizen, it opens up new opportunities. I just thought it was funny that he brought it up tonight.
Here's what happens -- WAS needs your pursuit. It's comforting for them to know you want them so they can come back at any time. They are motivated to keep that safety net available. When they sense you pulling away or don't know what you are doing or thinking, they get nervous and will start being nice to draw you back in.
As soon as you let your guard down they will again start to distance themselves from you, either with negligence or nasty or uncaring remarks. You must let them know you want them, but you can't come too close.
This is not sinister mustache twisting behavior, they don't know why they're doing it. Usually they are conflicted and as long as they can keep you on the line they don't have to face themselves or make any changes. The longer they can put off disappointing either you or OW the better.
Your exploding on him probably triggered this, your distance got too great and he started to worry that he was going to lose control. As soon as he is convinced you're back you can expect him to start distancing again.
If instead you keep distancing, you disrupt the push and pull dance you're locked in. You need to make him wonder what you're thinking and what you're going to do. Go out and don't tell him where and see what happens. You'll get him to pursue. Be nice to him and you'll get him to distance.
Your way out is to apply distance yourself and do not relent until OW is gone.
Accuray
Very telling, he want to live out his plans when he was 23 before he had a wife and a kid, very telling
Accuray advice is top shelf. Sinister mustache twisting behavior = Snidely Whiplash. Remember him?
I was thinking the same thing, only it was Inspector Clouseau who I envisioned with that description. Although Snidley Whiplash works just as well.
newhamstermom - i was in the book store and saw this book called.. "emotional infidelity" which i am thinking of reading.
quote about book "Take a quick check: Do you send that funny e-mail to your friends at work-but not to your spouse? Do you chew over all the problems on the job so thoroughly with your colleagues that by the time you get home, you just don't feel like going into it all over again? Do you get a secret thrill out of flirting with coworkers-thinking it's safe because you know it's not going any further? If so, you're committing emotional infidelity-and you're draining your marriage of the energy it needs to be great. Learning how to break this cycle is one of eleven secrets M. Gary Neuman shares in his provocative new book."
and then i come here and read accuray's post and check out the link..
it's totally my H! and he just refuses to see it. when he had his PA years ago, it was with a chick from work. totally felt remorse.. thought we had worked through it.. now.. i think he is having an EA and may not even know it.
makes me just want to slap him upside the head and say.. read this!! of course i won't. doesn't mean i don't want to!
Accuracy is accurate.
I'm guilty of this too, I needed to read his post this morning.
It's distancing with a smile that carries the day. They need to question the assumption that they can just have you back.
It's a fine line, you think it would be best to repair the marriage, but you are done sitting around thinking about it -- you're moving on and feeling good about it.
So hard!
Accuray
newhamstermom
Now I know you did not just go there..
NH- top shelf advice indeed. When you pull back they seem to follow, think I'm seeing that now.
H is definitely being much nicer today. I need to make sure I don't fall for it. Acknowledge his efforts, but don't get sucked in.
I do agree that he wants to make sure that I still want him, and after our conversations during the last couple of days I let him to believe that I wasn't so sure anymore.
We both took S4 to soccer today, and then dropped him off at MIL's for a few hours. We had a chance to go have lunch just the two of us. I thought that might be nice, but as we almost got to the place he got a work related phone call and he was pretty much busy problem solving about the issue that continued well after lunch.
So my GAL activity was to go to Target for a while, and then pick up S4 from MIL's. MIL mentioned that she wanted to invite H for lunch tomorrow, but when I got home I saw an email from her telling me that she's changed her mind and is too angry w/ H about hurting me. She's been very supportive this whole time, and even though at first H was very angry that I told her about our sitch (that was before I knew about rule #6 on the 37 rules list). She is an LBS herself.....many, many years ago.
H told me about a brunch that some soccer people were having, and that he'll take S4. I guess I'm not invited. I could use the time and go to the gym...no excuses!
Accuracy is accurate.
I'm guilty of this too, I needed to read his post this morning.
What Accuray post? Where is it? thx
Here ya go Rick:
Here's what happens -- WAS needs your pursuit. It's comforting for them to know you want them so they can come back at any time. They are motivated to keep that safety net available. When they sense you pulling away or don't know what you are doing or thinking, they get nervous and will start being nice to draw you back in.
As soon as you let your guard down they will again start to distance themselves from you, either with negligence or nasty or uncaring remarks. You must let them know you want them, but you can't come too close.
This is not sinister mustache twisting behavior, they don't know why they're doing it. Usually they are conflicted and as long as they can keep you on the line they don't have to face themselves or make any changes. The longer they can put off disappointing either you or OW the better.
Your exploding on him probably triggered this, your distance got too great and he started to worry that he was going to lose control. As soon as he is convinced you're back you can expect him to start distancing again.
If instead you keep distancing, you disrupt the push and pull dance you're locked in. You need to make him wonder what you're thinking and what you're going to do. Go out and don't tell him where and see what happens. You'll get him to pursue. Be nice to him and you'll get him to distance.
Your way out is to apply distance yourself and do not relent until OW is gone.
Accuray
Oh. I did read this, thx babe.
How r u NH? thanks for your message yesterday...really helped. Don't forget Bikram yoga in Manchester. Try it once just for me...you'll see how good you feel
Didn't I see something on America's Most Wanted about this?
Thanks, Rick! I'll look into Bikram yoga in a couple of weeks. I managed to sneak in a quick 15 yoga workout after work while S4 watched TV.
Things are more or less the same in NHamsterland. H had a job interview today and I'm hoping and praying that he gets it. It would be a step in the right direction. It's hard for me to think that every morning he's getting ready and going to work and will see and interact with OW. Even if he claims that there's nothing there (which I don't believe), there was "something" there not too long ago. He's crossed the line and you can't retrace your steps. So for me to move on and heal, he'd need to break off contact with OW entirely, but it's not possible right now.
We had another exchange of opinions via email today. It started with me noticing that he made a big credit card payment without telling me. It opened up the financial can of worms again. He's been spending rather recklessly, though not huge purchases, it just adds up over time. I made a comment about that and asked him to be mindful of his spending. He brought up our disagreements about the finances from the past, which are true and we never found good solutions then. In our conversation today, I even went as far as suggesting to split our finances and to have separate accounts. That we could have a joint account for bills and shared expenses, and he could have a separate account for any leftover money. Then he wouldn't feel like he has to ask permission to buy anything. I also offered that he take over the finances and pay all the bills. He didn't respond to either of the suggestions.
H is still trying to wrap his head around everything, still bringing up why I did this or that. And I gave him pretty much the same answers as I have been. I also asked him if he thinks that I'm such a letdown for him, then does he even bother with me. He just responded that he's still trying to understand it all.
H also said that "everyone is on my side and nobody seems to understand where he's coming from". By 'everyone', I think he means his biological mother whom he's been discussing our sitch with (at least that's what he said a couple of nights ago when he was chatting on FB and told me that it was her whom he was chatting with). And if 'everyone' thinks so, then maybe there's some truth to that?
Tonight when H was telling me about his interview, he mentioned that the last 10 minutes he spent talking about me. I guess they asked him how he learned German, and then he went to talk about me, how many languages I speak, where I work, etc. Hmm. I was trying to be funny and said: "How ironic that people seem to be impressed with me when, at the same time, you hate me. Oh wait, they don't know the real me, the monster that's hiding inside me." Ok, not the best thing to say. It was rather sarcastic, but he seemed to chuckle at that.
Sarcasm can be a good tension breaker, when used the right way. I think your 'monster' comment wasn't too bad
I think your $ suggestions are great, and interesting that he wouldn't respond... Doesn't want the responsibility? Like you said, he wants to live hos college years all over again.....Wants to still have something to fight/blame on you? Give it some time and don't bring it up again. If he hadn't brought it up in a few weeks, it might be safe to talk about it again- before his spending gets really bad.
Yoga always helps to get my mind refocused- glad you got to do some today!!
NHamsterland......woke my son up I laughed so loud.
I just signed up for my first yoga class this weekend, hope I like it.
Thanks for the laugh and I hope this financial situation works itself out because he gets the new job. Never been a fan of seperate accounts if you are trying to create oneness.
It seems like your H is making an effort to come back to you. Reading your post it feels like you are pushing him away and giving him ultimatiums. He needs to cut off all contact so YOU CAN HEAL. Did your H ever sleep with this OW that you are aware of? or he just had feeling for her?
When your H talks about how he is just trying to wrap his head around things I think a more DB answer would be to simply listen and validate. Your response, however true it might be (why bother with me then) is very combative.
I certainly have no answers but I feel your H trying to reach out towards you and you not showing as much love as you have for him.
Newhampstermeow - regarding your finances i think both spouses need to have a firm grasp on economic reality and separate accts will allow him to learn and appreciate this. Going thru same with my W.
Be careful about making self deprecating remarks about yourself when he says he is trying to understand things. Dont lead the witness. Let him only know validation, solutions and positives. I see him reaching out often and I would hate to see anything you say thats negative reinforce some negative feeling or confusion he has.
Psyched about your yoga. Cant wait to hear about Bikram!
We've had joint accounts since well before we got married, so H never learned how to be financially responsible. His income doesn't support the lifestyle that he'd like to lead. Money has been a sore subject for us for a long time. I let him go on his spending spree since the bomb without saying a word, but there will be a time where enough is enough. If he wants to continue to buy toys for himself, then he can do so with any 'leftover' money after the bills have been paid.
I know I'm making it sound like his crisis is about me, that I'm the victim and he needs to change things so that I can move on. I'm getting to a point where I'm tired of being a "servant" to him, being the accountant, cook, cleaning lady, childcare provider and other stuff. He wants to come and go as he pleases, goes to soccer a couple of times a week, goes to bars and whatever other places while I'm expected to stay home and care for S4. He used to pitch in and help out in most of these things, but now I'm left to sit back and do all this work (on top of working full time), watch him act like an irresponsible teenager, and act like I'm ok with it all. It's not easy to do and I'm feeling very worn out.
H keeps asking the same questions over and over. He's looking for me for answers, not just validation, but answers about why "I" let him down. I've been answering as I go, but he's not listening. He's been saying how out of character "I" have been and pushed him away, that I'm the one who failed him and I'm the one who's responsible for all of it. If this keeps going for a long time, there might be a point where I will just start believing that. I know that you should believe what the WAS says, but after you've heard it so many times, it might start to distort the reality a bit.
We don't really spend any time together. Our interactions are usually around S4, and after S4 is in bed, H is either gone or on his iPad.
At least he's starting to come around and act more interested in S4. For so many weeks he was so angry and impatient, constantly yelling at S4. Though his impatience is still there to a degree, at least he's making more of an effort to give S4 hugs. One time last week he even offered to read to S4 before bed.
Hey NH, you're right. Its very frustrating.
My W has basically washed her hands of financial responsibility. She spends what she wants when she wants and has run up cc debt without showing accountability to pay it back. Had to separate those accounts to protect the family and was labelled as "controlling" for the act.
Something to consider (I'm doing this now also) is if your H is "feeling" you let him down, then those are his feelings and there may be some truth to it. This does not mean these issues are your fault and that is NOT what I'm saying. What I am learning for myself is that I brought my own issues & behaviors to my M and they have contributed to the issues.
It doesn't make me a bad person, just human. I knew this at a high level but its starting to hit a little deeper for me to see how my actions/behaviors have contributed and its helping me see more 180's that I can do as a result.
This does NOT justify his actions & behaviors. He may be trying to justify his actions by what he's claiming about you (typical WAS stuff) but that is a defense mechanism to avoid looking deeper. Its hard to deflect that but I'm guessing you can do it (believe me, if I can, you certainly can!)
As I read your post, I see a lot of frustration with your H's behaviors which often boils down to unmet expectations for you. Which brings me to that wonderful word....detachment.
Money is a big issue with me & W as well. I'm far more conservative in my spending than W. I've had to just move forward to manage what needs to be managed. I've offered to include her but she's resisted so I've had to just do what I feel is best for the family. I get flack about it but I know I'm doing what is best under the circumstances and will take the heat.
What can you do for you? What nights can you go out and let you H take care of S and other stuff? Even if its going to the store by yourself. Maybe have H handle his own dinner because you've got plans? I'm not the best at the GAL stuff so others can help you there.
((((NH))))
(((NH))) At a meeting now....will respond later. CES comments very valuable...
We've had joint accounts since well before we got married, so H never learned how to be financially responsible. His income doesn't support the lifestyle that he'd like to lead. Money has been a sore subject for us for a long time. I let him go on his spending spree since the bomb without saying a word, but there will be a time where enough is enough. If he wants to continue to buy toys for himself, then he can do so with any 'leftover' money after the bills have been paid.
I'm living this too. It's one thing to protect your finances for you and S, when doing so might lead to more distance w/ H. You have to do it anyway, but in a quiet, firm, non-combative way. Look at me giving you advice on this though. I enabled this pattern myself for 20+ yrs, yet in a way that qualifies me to speak on its down side if not checked.
I know I'm making it sound like his crisis is about me, that I'm the victim and he needs to change things so that I can move on. I'm getting to a point where I'm tired of being a "servant" to him, being the accountant, cook, cleaning lady, childcare provider and other stuff. He wants to come and go as he pleases, goes to soccer a couple of times a week, goes to bars and whatever other places while I'm expected to stay home and care for S4. He used to pitch in and help out in most of these things, but now I'm left to sit back and do all this work (on top of working full time), watch him act like an irresponsible teenager, and act like I'm ok with it all. It's not easy to do and I'm feeling very worn out.
NH I'm really sorry, and FWIW I'm living it too and feeling your pain. One thing though, remember that link to that sarcastic article about MLC? Isn't it odd how it fit so many people's sitches on this board. I think that means that what we are dealing with is not just our sitch alone but some sort of bizarre human trait that is maybe a mixture of our biology, human and social characteristics.
I wanted to say to you that when you say things to him like "yes, I was this negative thing in the M" when in discussion I feel like it just fuels his distance and flight. Maybe if you say it more like that you recognize something in you that you have grown beyond and now see it as such and such better way. Not that this will have any immediate affect either. It might but be prepared for it feeling like it went through his ears.
H keeps asking the same questions over and over. He's looking for me for answers, not just validation, but answers about why "I" let him down. I've been answering as I go, but he's not listening. He's been saying how out of character "I" have been and pushed him away, that I'm the one who failed him and I'm the one who's responsible for all of it. If this keeps going for a long time, there might be a point where I will just start believing that. I know that you should believe what the WAS says, but after you've heard it so many times, it might start to distort the reality a bit.
Don't believe it NH, or I will drive up there and reprimand you! That's all you need right, another guy giving you shitt? You know he's got to villianize you to make his story work. Eventually, when you provide no fuel for his fire, he'll flame out, and maybe start to look inward.
We don't really spend any time together. Our interactions are usually around S4, and after S4 is in bed, H is either gone or on his iPad.
At least he's starting to come around and act more interested in S4. For so many weeks he was so angry and impatient, constantly yelling at S4. Though his impatience is still there to a degree, at least he's making more of an effort to give S4 hugs. One time last week he even offered to read to S4 before bed.
(((Newhampstermeow)))
My H said to me for a while that his leaving was not what he wanted to do but I had forced him to leave. I somehow learned to keep my mouth shut and nod affirmatively. I dont have to answer every accusation my H makes. He wants to engage us in a fight so we can act angry and mad and he can say look I am right you are a crazy beetch.
A woman at al-anon shared the other night the best thing she ever learned to say was "Yeah, Ah ha, I've never looked at it like that, you may be right" and thats all you have to say. You dont need to win a debate. The truth will reveal its self it just takes its time
Great perspective, Bklyn. I've heard that too, just have to remember it.
25 says the same thing Brklyn Babe says here....makes great sense.
"You dont need to win a debate".
Wish I could remember this!
I swear I'm hard-wired to get my view across to H no matter what.
Just need to LAV (listen, accept validate).
I haven't posted in almost a month, and just wanted to give an update on where things are.
Well, I'm still here, and so is my H. I think things are ok. They're better. There is still a long road ahead of us, but I feel like we're slowly moving in the right direction.
The 2nd and 3rd weeks in March H was gone (a mix of business and personal travel). The first few days after he left were a little difficult to adjust to, mainly because being a single parent really does require a lot more work...
About halfway through the first week, H and I got into a little spat over the phone. I ended up hanging up on him a couple of times, because I was getting upset and couldn't continue. We continued to "talk" via TM. It was not directly M related, but still something important to H and is part of H's crisis. I was frustrated and let it show. I know I could have handled it better, but the emotions got the best of me.
The morning after the "spat", H was texting random things, not mentioning the previous night at all.
With time, his TM's were increasing, especially the second week he was away. He was asking me more about my day, sending me updates on his travels and what he was doing when. In one of his TM's he said he "missed his wife".
I let him initiate almost all of the contact while he was away.
I think around the second week he was gone, I was starting to get used to him being away. It sort of gave me a snapshot of what it would be like w/out him, and I was ok with it. I knew that no matter what, I would be ok. I also think it's about the same time that H has started to miss me more. Funny how things work.
H came back a week ago. The first couple of days of him being back felt a little strange. We didn't talk very much, everything felt a little awkward, especially after S4 would go to bed. I didn't know what to say to him, he didn't know what to say to me. Yet somehow things found their ways to intimacy.
Overall, I think things are looking up. We're pleasant w/ each other. We seem to talk more, just random stuff. H cooked or helped cooking dinner a couple of times this week.
I received flowers from a friend this week. H wanted to know who they were from and wouldn't accept "friend" as an answer. He kept asking if they were from a guy. The flowers definitely set him off and got him thinking.
H has made a couple of compliments this week. He smiles back when I smile at him. The anger that I could see in his eyes and feel in the air doesn't seem to be there. He's gone tonight, but before he left he kissed me, and it was more than just a quick kiss. It actually got S4 to whine a little, he was starting to get jealous.
There hasn't really been any R talk whatsoever, and some days it's driving me crazy. I feel that at some point we'll need to talk about what's happening and where things are going.
I'm at a point where I think that no matter what happens, whether things work out between H and I or not, that I'll be ok. I feel more confident and at peace. I am lucky to have found a network of people who have helped me so much. Without them, I would not be anywhere near I am now.
I am so happy that things are moving in a positive direction.
I know its hard but you should really try not to talk about the R. You can vent here and with friends but your H doesnt really understand his own meltdown. Any question you have will just be taken as pressure.
You are blessed that things are headed the right way, take it slow and continue to work on you.
Good for you NHMom, I also saw that when I started to want W less she would want me more. You may also want to check out "The Passion Trap" and "The Solo Partner", they talk about this pursuer/distancer dance.
The book suggests that when you pursue H, he will distance. When you stop pursuing, he'll get uncomfortable and pursue you just enough to hook you back in, and then he'll distance again. You can get "stuck" there unless you break that cycle.
I'm so glad to hear things are going better for you, you've shown incredible patience and discipline, it's truly commendable!
I hope things are getting easier overall and you're finding more happiness.
Accuray
I'm at a point where I think that no matter what happens, whether things work out between H and I or not, that I'll be ok. I feel more confident and at peace.
^^^^^^^This is great NHMOM!! You will be better than ok because you are a great person!
Do u think he would go to retroaville? Keep up the good work
Thanks everyone. I do think we're making steps in the right direction, especially thinking back how things were a couple of months ago. I feel like I've given him a few get out of jail free cards during my frustrated moments, but he hasn't taken them. So whatever he's thinking, I hope it's positive.
Rick, I don't know if he'll go to Retrouvaille. I had asked him about it after my big blow up at him in February, I think. At the time, he said that he wasn't sure if he could commit due to his work schedule and possible travel on weekends. I haven't brought it up since then. I do think we will need third party help to really make any progress, whether it's MC or Retrouvaille, or something similar.
We still have issues to work out...like our different parenting styles, which seems to be a sore spot, and I know it will not go away, so we'll need to find out ways to make it work.
We also have communication issues. I will work on my communication skills, and I need to be careful to not give up. I tend to react to how my communication is received. If I see it failing, I'm tempted to stop and throw in the towel. So I need to prepare myself to negative reactions and just let them bounce off of me.
A lot of work and an uncertain future lay ahead. I'm still taking it one day at a time.
nh- this is great! so much progress in a month! I pray that he comes to his senses soon and he seems to be well underway!
I also went hiatus for a month and it was refreshing to come back and read my old posts. It puts things in perspective. We don't see the baby steps until we look at our sitch objectively.
Keep DBing!
We also have communication issues. I will work on my communication skills, and I need to be careful to not give up. I tend to react to how my communication is received. If I see it failing, I'm tempted to stop and throw in the towel. So I need to prepare myself to negative reactions and just let them bounce off of me.
NH - Thaks for being so honest and posting this. I can see myself in these statements. I think this is how I'm feeling now. So I need to work on this, too.