New thread - here are the links to my old threads:
Thread 1 – Wife is angrier after my 180 Thread 2 – Wife is angrier after my 180’s – time + consistency Thread 3 – Into the Darkness – DB full steam ahead Thread 4 – Dark Shadows – DB continues Thread 5 – Dark Shadows on the Roller Coaster Thread 6 – Dark Shadows on the Roller Coaster - ride cont's. ====================================================
At the start of my last thread I was riding the emotional roller coaster feel pretty low and frankly grieving the loss of my long term M. Later on I was questioning whether or not it was worth continuing this fight to save my M followed by a lot of anxiety about finances, selling our home and getting things in order to really and truly detach and prepare to move on.
Needless to say, but definitely worth mentioning, I received a ton of advice, support and direct feedback from many fellow DB'rs and other assorted friends and family. Without this support system, I would be totally and utterly lost. Thank you, one and all!!
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Today I received what I consider to be a very interesting and potentially promising email from my W, the contents of which is provided below:
"Just an FYI - my hermit days are over and I've started a Friday night girl's night. 
This means NO BOYS of any age!
It is Friend 1, Friend 2 (S10's friends mom) and me for now. We are having French Martini Friday's, that is of course if I can figure out how to make them.
So seems like Friend 1's H would need a buddy this Friday too.
Also, Friend 1 and I are going to start Zumba at the gym on Sundays at 10am. If you and S10 went to the early service would he be able to get to the gym by 10 to hang with Friend 1's son?"I thought long and hard about how I ought to respond and after consulting with a few close friends I came up with the following:
"French Martini's and Zumba with friends...a perfect combination! I'm sure we can work something out with the schedule on Sundays!
2thepoint
PS I'm really glad you are doing this!"The reason for my optimism is because as I've stated in an earlier thread, my W has really struggled with maintaining friendships with other women. That she is finally figuring out that she can thrive in the company of others is a huge step forward for her. I think her statement about her "hermit days are over" seems like a very positive development in her journey.
Makes me wonder what other surprises are in store for me in the coming weeks and months. And, whether among the dark shadows, there just may be light at the end of the tunnel.
"Looking at your response again...
Would you say that that is advice YOU would want to hear if the roles were reversed?
"It shows a complete lack of faith in her as a Mother. I know I would be a little peeved if I thought someone was judging me to be less of a parent than I was capable of being."
I think it would depend. I understand how it was likely received by my W which is why I posted about it. It is an area of my personality for which I would like to continue to work on. The fact that I recognize it I think is a good thing (i.e. self awareness). Now I just need to manage it which seems to be considerably more difficult.
I disagree with the second part of your comment that it shows a "complete lack of faith in her as a Mother." I have faith in her as a mother. I am just being a little controlling in how I communicated about administering the medication which I recognize and hope to correct.
You may disagree all you want. I'm cool with that, yet then again, I'm not the one you are trying to reconcile with.
It's not about how YOU view it at all that matters. It is about how SHE views things.
Was this a common type of communication in the past ?
It came across to me as if you didn't trust her to do the right things. It was controlling, you treated her like an idiot that wasn't capable of dispensing Advil to your son. It reaked of you being superior to her.
I'm not sure what part of that, you thought was okay.
I'm not sure you are showing faith in her, by trying to control the whens and hows of how she cares for him.
Cause I can tell you that " just making sure she has all of the info" is trying to control her. It tells her that you are just a little smarter than she is, and can do things a little better than she can....
That is faith ?
That is the funny part of being a control freak, it attacks every facet of our being. In areas that we don't think that it does.
You say you were controlling, and you are working on that....
Let me ask you this.
HOW were you controlling ?
Sounds simple huh ???
HOW WERE YOU CONTROLLING ?????
First of all, I'm going to re-post the exchange between my W and I because I think you are blowing out of proportion what I already acknowledged before any input from anyone, was probably not a good way to have approached things.
"...Once W filled me in on the missing details, I asked her if S10 was prescribed pain medication and she said no. She says he will only need ibuprofen and will be giving it to him in regular intervals, (before he has a chance to complain about the pain).
I then remind her that ibuprofen can be dangerous if taken more than directed on the label and to please be careful. W got a little testy, saying "I know!" in what I interpret as an exasperated and condescending tone."
Note here that I didn't tell her what to do, I just reminded her about the dangers of Ibuprofen and to be careful. Now because she reacted negatively to this, I posted the exchange to get input on how I could handle differently in the future. And you along with others provided some good advice.
If I really wanted to be a control freak, I could have told her specifically how much and how often to administer the medication and maybe even send it to her in writing just to be sure and then demand periodic updates on my sons condition.
Now to my mind, that ^^^^ would be control freak type behavior. A simple reminder about the dangers of the medication and to be careful is not. I do though see how it is likely a subtle form of control which I suppose can be just as damaging to a R.
You asked the question, "Was this a common type of communication in the past?"
I would say probably, yes. It is something that I have acknowledged here and to my W. It is something I continue to struggle with and am working on internally and with my IC. I would say that I am making some progress because in the past I wouldn't have even recognized the behavior let alone try to correct it. The fact that I see it now almost immediately after it happens and sometimes before, tells me that I am making progress.
You asked me "HOW WERE YOU CONTROLLING ?????"
I think the best way to answer that is to re-post a very early description of my contributions to my sitch and then add some additional background.
(From my post Oct 4, 2011)
I consider myself to be a good and thoughtful person who doesn't drink, smoke, do drugs, beat my wife or kids and I have never ever had an affair, emotional or otherwise. I do have my demons though; grew up in a very impoverished family, food insecurities, father did drugs, mother had affairs, was sexually abused for years as a child by a person who went to my church, did lots of drugs until I turned 21, all fun stuff!
Over the years I have worked very hard to make something of myself. I worked very hard to work my way up the corporate ladder, made more $$ than I ever dreamed possible and built a good/safe life for my family. We have a nice home, nice things and really good kids. Where I struggle as I've discovered during my soul searching prompted by this crisis, is that I am selfish. When I want something, I work hard until I get it. If I don't want to do something, I don't do it! I have pressured my wife into decisions that she would have preferred not to make. If I want to do something, I do it. If I want the family to do something, I press and press until they agree. My wife also feels like I don't support her emotionally. I have not been 100% present in love, in raising the kids or in general consideration of the family. This manifests itself mostly with my time spent on the computer, (political blogs, news sites, face book, email, etc.). It has become somewhat of an addiction that I have made a great effort to confront in recent weeks.
Perhaps the biggest issue I face as far as my W is concerned is that I don't respect her and have begun to ignore her. Until the bomb went off and probably for the last year or so I would roll my eyes and sigh heavily when asked to do something. I didn't even realize I was doing it until I caught myself one day. I also have developed a hearing problem that apparently has really been driving my W batty. She has begged and pleaded with me to have my hearing checked. After the bomb, I did have it checked and was stunned by the results. I now have hearing aids."
Ok, now that I've rehashed all that old baggage, I should point out that what I early on described as "selfishness" was really probably more "control type" behavior. I am a manager by trade and my W has told me in the past "I don't need to be managed!" So there is one great example of how I was controlling. I'd often come across as demanding she do things. Even though that was not my intent, that is how I came across.
I would often get frustrated about my W's sloppy house keeping or lack thereof and would get into angry clean-up mode. That was probably a form of control as well.
When my W would hem and haw about simple decisions, I would often take "control" and make the decision.
So those are some of the examples of control. There are others sprinkled throughout my posts over the past 4 months.
I know it is a problem. I am much better at recognizing it and managing it than I was in the past, but I still have a long way to go.
I should also point out that I understand where my control tendencies come from. A lot of it was learned behavior from grandparents and great grandparents who were very influential in my life at an early age. The other source and perhaps more important was the lack of control that I felt at a young age (between the age of 9-14) when there was significant food insecurity and the sexual abuse I endured over that period.
Not being able to control my environment then has manifested itself into my control behaviors of today. I understand it, I recognize it's source and I have to work hard at it daily to manage it.
In one of our few but a lengthy R conversation, I shared this with my W. Up to that point I had not discussed this with anyone. The shame of it all had been bottled up for over 30 years! But when I shared it with my W she made the comment, "it all makes perfect sense now." "Thanks for telling me." And then we held each other for a long time.
The fact that I see it now almost immediately after it happens and sometimes before, tells me that I am making progress.
If you notice, the word "after" is highlighted.
2,
This could be any of the things that you have mentioned that are sprinkled amongst your posts.
And yes, this is exaggerated to a degree. As miniscule as this appears, it is common among us that are/were control freaks.
I know that behavior well, because I lived it too.
When I speak of it, it is because at some point in time, I have been just as guilty as the next guy.
The problem with control , is that we recognize that pattern AFTER we have expressed it. And we use WORDS to cover our ACTIONS up. We can say I'm sorry a million times, yet the damage has already been done. You can't un-ring a bell.
I thought I was doing the right things, with the subtle hints, and the "looking out for mistakes". Yet what I was doing was driving a wedge that would lead to the demise of my marriage.
When I worked up the courage to Google "controlling behavior" I was much like anyone else. I was shocked to see what that looked like from a healthy standpoint. I was ANGRY, and I immediately went into denial. I couldn't be that guy...could I ?
What I saw , looked exactly like the man I had become. I had allowed my fears to take me over. I used my fears as a shield , my defense weapon. and what I had found was, that I was embarrassed by MY behavior. My fears had driven me to work toward them, instead of away from them.
I lashed out at the people that were trying to help me through this. I felt that they " just didn't understand me" . When in actuality, they understood quite well.
I was the one who didn't get it.
Do you realize that control can be as simple as....
You are walking through the kitchen while your spouse is cooking. as you walk by, you taste what she is cooking, and add salt without asking...???
Sounds petty huh ?
You know what ?
1+1+1+1+1+1....will eventually get you to 1 million
Ok, now that I've rehashed all that old baggage, I should point out that what I early on described as "selfishness" was really probably more "control type" behavior. I am a manager by trade and my W has told me in the past "I don't need to be managed!" So there is one great example of how I was controlling. I'd often come across as demanding she do things. Even though that was not my intent, that is how I came across.
It's not just me telling you this either.... ^^^^^
It is something that your spouse dealt with, and it appears the topic "stings" you a bit...
I'm glad you are recognizing the root of the issue.
Thank you for sharing something that personal here, I understand how difficult that is.
Digging into that crap is HARD work. And I applaud you for taking measures to change yourself.
Accepting that you played a part in the breakdown of the relationship is essential to healing. Accepting that is hard to look at. Knowing the details can cause a flurry of emotion.
The end result ?
If you choose to do the work ?
Priceless......
Good stuff, Mach! I was such a controller and am slowly recovering from that. My marriage may not make it but I will be a happier person. The more of this type information I read, the more what I need to do, how I need to think, sinks in. I helps the most when the little things are dissected because many of those are such ingrained behaviors.
...just as I was attempting to move towards the light at the end of the tunnel, M1 pulls me back into the dark shadows!
Got a call and text message from my W today. Or at least I thought she called. So I call back and get her voice mail. I say "Hi 'Hon', saw that you called. Just calling you back."
Later I realize she hadn't called, just sent me a text picture of S10's arm in a cast. Doh!
Is it possible for your WAW to still be a "Hon"?
Old habits die hard!!
I do the same thing every now and then just out of habit as well. I used to always call my W "babe" and I try not to say it but it slips out every now and then and I'm like, noooooo.
Don't sweat it.
I guess my W will always be my Hon regardless of where we end up. Sigh!
Heading back home tomorrow morning after a week of GAL and business development. Got lucky and sold 3 properties during my time away. The success of this week has me reevaluating whether or not I want to pursue my side business as a full time endeavor.
I guess I'll have a lot to consider in the coming weeks. I still would prefer a more reliable work situation so I will need to weigh the pros and cons.
Well, that's all for now. It's going to be interesting to see what the coming week has in store for me.
Wow 2, great job on the business front. A little luck never hurts but don't sell yourself short, you closed the deals.
Good Luck on the return, I know you can't wait to see the boys.
Why not work on both right now? Looking for a stable salaried job while doing your side business, if you land a great salaried job you can take it but dont have to settle for a mediocre one.
Congrats on the sales. Does your W know about the sales yet?
SIAS- yes, looking forward to seeing the boys and signing S10's new arm cast.
Bklyn- working on both is exactly what I'm doing at present. Really would prefer a stable, predictable salary.
Yes, told my W about the sales. Just have to wait for the closings....just in time for my trip to Spain!!
Somewhere 25 recently posted about a book she read several years ago titled, "A year By the Sea." Last week before leaving for Arizona, I found the book at a half price book store and made a point of reading it while I was away in Arizona.
The book was a quick and easy read. But what I found interesting was that the story line so closely follows what I perceive as my W's current thinking and frame of mind, that it felt like I was reading our life story.
The fact that the setting takes place initially on Long Island where my W is from and then a year at a seaside cottage up in New England, (my W loves the beaches of Long Island and New England) really adds to the appeal of the story line.
Anyway the story is about a woman's search for her true identity after she splits with her H. The story couldn't have been more emblematic of what my W and I are going through. So, after reading the book I decided to give it to my W. In doing so, I included the following note:
"I recently discovered this book and see a lot of you and us reflected in its pages. There is even a surprise coincidence that you will recognize immediately. The book touched me and I think it will touch you too. It is a short, easy read. I hope you enjoy it."
Early this evening I stopped by the house to take the boys out for burgers ans shakes and while there I told my W that I had something for her. She gave me a dirty look and said what is it?! Clearly she did not want me to give her anything.
I handed her the book and the last I saw, she was perusing the front and back cover. I hope she reads it and finds some inspiration. I guess time will tell.
Learned something I found to be very interesting tonight. My W has a friend who I have mentioned in previous posts who has 2 children and is divorced within the last year or so.
Shortly after her D she was engaged to another man, had planned a wedding and then abruptly called off the wedding. Then a few months later, she was living with and engaged to yet a different man.
Well today I learned that she broke up with that person and...wait for it.... got remarried to her original husband and father of her children!!
I bring this up because this friend is the very person who my W had modeled her "escape" from our M after. Early in our sitch my W made the comment about how we could just send in the D paperwork and things would go very smoothly and we could sell the house and each buy a house in the same neighborhood so we could share the kids, etc. BARF!!
So now my wife has vowed that her hermit days are over and her Friday french martini nights will be spent with that very friend who just remarried her Ex.
Makes me wonder what her plans look like now.
Its all confusing.... I hope this turn of events with her friend ends up being a good influence for her and for your M.
Be prepared for nothing in the immediate future. If seeds of promise are planted, it will take time for them to grow and your W will probably fight them at least at first.
Its a good positive to see someone else restore their marraige. Keep your training up for the distance run though.... Hope your weekend goes well.
Hey 2. I hope what I am about to say does not offend you. It is not my intention. First let me tell you that in the last few weeks something has happened to my thinking. I like everyone else have been focused on my WAS and her every move. But I started looking at me more carefully. Still was not clear of what was happening within me. But this week I think I got it. I think it was after the smack down I got at the beginning of the week by some wonderful people that I am very grateful for. I am no longer obssessed with her. I think less and less about her. So I feel much better and happier. Truthfully, the future is starting to look bright again.I am almost excited.
If you ask me I will said that I have 0% chance of saving my M. But I think I'm ok with it now. Things might change later on but who knows.
I don't think things will improve for you if you continue to obssess over your W and day dream about what ifs... I think you would do better if you focus on the changes you need to make. You need to prepare yourself mentally for the worse but hope for the best. Let her go. Hang in there
Yep, CES I have no expectations and so I just keep plugging along. I think it is helpful though to note the event mileposts and keep moving forward.
No worries Rick, I'm not offended by things people say on these forums since I know they are always intended to help and not harm and because we all are or have been in the same sitch. So I'm cool.
I don't think I'm really obsessing abut my W's every move. I'm just making little notes about various events and then filing them away and moving forward.
I continue with my job search as I see that as a huge obstacle to truly being able to free myself. Until then, all I can do is work on me. I continue with my T sessions, attend round 2 of DivorceCare and am evaluating other options that I might have in order to move on.
My roommate is planning a dinner event with me, his GF and a friend of hers and I am looking forward to sharing company with someone of the opposite sex. I'm not planning on dating mind you, just looking for a little friendly conversation and relaxation.
And I continue to move forward. I went away for a week last week and had little to no contact with my W. In about a month or so I'm off to Spain and am really looking forward to that trip as well.
I agree my emotional attachment is still pretty strong but I keep working on that and I'll get there eventually.
Thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate it!
2,
Was this the book that the W returns to her H?
Why did you give it to her?
Did you give it to her because you are truly understanding and supporting her decision?
Or because of the happy ending at the end?
Obviously if she was upset you gave her anything, be prepared that she gets upset by the book.
IMO - there is a very real chance that she will see this as pursuit. (I do and I'm not a WAS).
Becareful 2 - Understand that although these acts MAY have good intentions, it may push your w away more at this stage of the game.
Hey Val - Thanks for posting on my thread!
2,
Was this the book that the W returns to her H?
Yes, but that was not the primary focus of the book.
Why did you give it to her?
I felt like the book really captured the essence of where my W is emotionally. The setting is precisely where my W would feel most at home. The search for her true self is exactly what my W is in the midst of. The main character is around the age of 50, same as my W. She is going through menopause, just like my W. She has felt like she has been living life for everyone but herself, just like my W. Basically, I see my W in just about every aspect of the story.
Did you give it to her because you are truly understanding and supporting her decision?
Yes and no. I understand and accept her decision. I don't necessarily support it. How could I?
However, I really felt like my W could relate to what the main character in the story was going through. And my thinking was perhaps she could see some of herself in those pages and maybe begin to think about what she is really missing in life, (not so much me, but other joys in life i.e. friends, experiences, etc.)
Or because of the happy ending at the end?
I did not give it to her because the couple reconcile at the end of the book. In fact, the happy ending, was really not so happy. She was feeling quite a bit of trepidation and at the end of the story it is not at all clear that they would make it. There is a follow up story that I think addresses the struggle she endured after they got back together.
Obviously if she was upset you gave her anything, be prepared that she gets upset by the book.
IMO - there is a very real chance that she will see this as pursuit. (I do and I'm not a WAS).
I see your point here and you may be correct. I had the same concerns and mentioned this to a friend of mine who is a licensed therapist and she thought giving it to my W was a good idea.
I've been working very hard to avoid any pursuit. It does slip out occasionally but it is not overt and occurs infrequently.
Be careful 2 - Understand that although these acts MAY have good intentions, it may push your w away more at this stage of the game.
I appreciate the admonition. I don't want to push her away. I just want to show her that I "get her and where she is" at present. I think she believed at the time of the bomb that I didn't get her nor did I care.
To demonstrate how far I think I've come, my W was planning a French Martini Friday with a few GF's at our house tonight. When I got back from my trip to AZ I noticed the house was a wreck and knew that W was going to have to scramble to get the house in order in time for her guests.
The old me would have offered to help her clean the house, (and don't think I didn't consider it, even as late as this morning!). But I held my tongue and let my W fend for herself.
Guess what? She didn't have time to clean the house and had to modify her plans and I did nothing to rescue her. That is a huge level of restraint for me. Especially since I think her getting together with friends would be good for her and her self esteem. But I can't continue to rescue her and so did not.
Thanks again for your post, Val. I'm open to any other feedback you have for me.
I guess maybe the word "support" was not the right word...
...but for me, I felt/feel like I did support my wife's decision. When she asked me to give her space, I did. When she spewed venom, I refused to retaliate.
Was that acceptance or support? I don't know.
I'm not saying giving the book was wrong - just wanted you to look at your motives. At the end of the day - we make the best decisions we can from them.
It won't be any one event that will "show" her.. it will be a solid consistency of actions over an extended period of time. And even then - she may not see it.
But if she doesn't see it - that shouldn't matter enough to change your actions. In fact, it prolly shouldn't matter at all.
Why did you give it to her?
Just because this is how YOU see your W, that does not mean that is where she is.
Yes and no. I understand and accept her decision. I don't necessarily support it. How could I?
However, I really felt like my W could relate to what the main character in the story was going through. And my thinking was perhaps she could see some of herself in those pages and maybe begin to think about what she is really missing in life, (not so much me, but other joys in life i.e. friends, experiences, etc.)
Do you really understand and accept her decision?
It doesn't seem like it, since you seem to be trying to show her how wrong she is. Trying to "wake her up" to herself, to rescue her from herself...
If you really get where your W is at this point in time, you need to show her by allowing her to be the adult that she is.
By allowing her to make her own choices, have her own triumphs, and make her own mistakes.
She is a grown up, whether you like it or not, whether you treat her like one or not.
Your behavior, while you may not mean it to, reeks of control and manipulation.
Why do you keep doing things to sabotage yourself?
Mach1 pointed out this type of behavior to you just the other day.
I simply do not understand.
Do you want to save your M or not?
I guess maybe the word "support" was not the right word...
...but for me, I felt/feel like I did support my wife's decision. When she asked me to give her space, I did. When she spewed venom, I refused to retaliate.
I did the same for my W. She asked me to give her space as in move out, even though she was having an A, and I did. I spend very little time with her. Any time with or near her is only when it involves the kids. And like you, when my W was making wild claims that had no foundation in reality, I listened and did not fight back. Maybe I should have. Maybe she needed to see some backbone from me. Who knows?
Was that acceptance or support? I don't know.
I'm not saying giving the book was wrong - just wanted you to look at your motives. At the end of the day - we make the best decisions we can from them.
OK, I get this. My motive was nothing more than to help her see that she is not alone in her thinking. I thought she'd relate well to the book.
It was done out of love and compassion. Nothing more. Some might view it as pursuit, and maybe it was. but it was not intended to be.
It won't be any one event that will "show" her.. it will be a solid consistency of actions over an extended period of time. And even then - she may not see it.
By "show" her, what do you mean? That I'm a new man?
But if she doesn't see it - that shouldn't matter enough to change your actions. In fact, it prolly shouldn't matter at all.
My changes, if that is what you mean by "actions", are for me first and foremost. They will certainly benefit my W and our M if there is ever to be a future for us. But I'm not making my changes for the sake of the M. They will be a side benefit if we ever get back together.
"A year By the Sea."
Hey. I'm reading this too. It speaks to me because it's at Cape Cod. I live nearby.
The book is an easy read. I'm almost done. It has helped me to understand W somewhat although not a perfect sitch match but helpful nonetheless. Plus, the story is good in and of itself.
Funny, I first starting reading it looking to the woman character for comparison's to my W, but as I get to it's end I'm starting to see myself as more of the woman character in my sitch. I'm not sure 25 was thinking that when she recommended it to me.
Learned something I found to be very interesting tonight. My W has a friend who I have mentioned in previous posts who has 2 children and is divorced within the last year or so.
Shortly after her D she was engaged to another man, had planned a wedding and then abruptly called off the wedding. Then a few months later, she was living with and engaged to yet a different man.
Well today I learned that she broke up with that person and...wait for it.... got remarried to her original husband and father of her children!!
I bring this up because this friend is the very person who my W had modeled her "escape" from our M after. Early in our sitch my W made the comment about how we could just send in the D paperwork and things would go very smoothly and we could sell the house and each buy a house in the same neighborhood so we could share the kids, etc. BARF!!
So now my wife has vowed that her hermit days are over and her Friday french martini nights will be spent with that very friend who just remarried her Ex.
Makes me wonder what her plans look like now.
2 - that's so nuts!!!! If that can happen, maybe our M's aren't so far off from a poss R?
Hey 2. I hope what I am about to say does not offend you. It is not my intention. First let me tell you that in the last few weeks something has happened to my thinking. I like everyone else have been focused on my WAS and her every move. But I started looking at me more carefully. Still was not clear of what was happening within me. But this week I think I got it. I think it was after the smack down I got at the beginning of the week by some wonderful people that I am very grateful for. I am no longer obssessed with her. I think less and less about her. So I feel much better and happier. Truthfully, the future is starting to look bright again.I am almost excited.
If you ask me I will said that I have 0% chance of saving my M. But I think I'm ok with it now. Things might change later on but who knows.
I don't think things will improve for you if you continue to obssess over your W and day dream about what ifs... I think you would do better if you focus on the changes you need to make. You need to prepare yourself mentally for the worse but hope for the best. Let her go. Hang in there
Cat, thanks for posting to my thread. I'm confused by some of your comments.
"Just because this is how YOU see your W, that does not mean that is where she is."
Everything I described in the comment block that you responded to is true and accurate. I know this because my W has said as much AND she has been in T for quite awhile to address some of these very things.
"Do you really understand and accept her decision?
It doesn't seem like it, since you seem to be trying to show her how wrong she is. Trying to "wake her up" to herself, to rescue her from herself..."
I don't see how I am trying to show her how wrong she is. I gave her a book that I read first, that I thought she could relate to and I ran it by a T before doing so. And it was also recommended by one of the vets on this forum.
"If you really get where your W is at this point in time, you need to show her by allowing her to be the adult that she is.
By allowing her to make her own choices, have her own triumphs, and make her own mistakes."
I agree with this ^^^^
"She is a grown up, whether you like it or not, whether you treat her like one or not.
Your behavior, while you may not mean it to, reeks of control and manipulation.
Why do you keep doing things to sabotage yourself?"
Where do you see that I don't view my W as grown up? I don't think I have ever implied that she wasn't and I don't think my actions are such to suggest that she is noting other than a mature adult woman.
Do I want to save my M? Hell yes! Have I made mistakes in the process. Yes. Am trying to avoid mistakes? Yes. I certainly don't want to sabotage myself. So please help me out here.
Has your W made any comment to you about the book?
No comment about the book. She read the front and back cover after I handed it to her. She placed it on the stairway banister on Wednesday where it sits today.
By some of the comments here, I'm starting to think I should just take the book back. I don't want to appear manipulative or controlling and that certainly was not my intention. I thought she'd enjoy the book and relate to the story. Ugh!
Dont touch the book.
I personally didnt think that giving her the book was controlling but I do think WAS would not like any book suggestions their LBS has for them. The WAS will probably say the couldnt relate to their own diary if the LBS gave it to them.
At this point however, you gave her the book - dont take it back, just leave it on the stairs and let her do whatever she wants with it.
((()))
It won't be any one event that will "show" her.. it will be a solid consistency of actions over an extended period of time. And even then - she may not see it.
Just Do It. Because it's the right thing to do...for you. And have zero expectations.
A while back I got my W a book on personal boundaries that our MC had recommended to us both. I read it and thought it had some good points for both of us.
When I gave her her copy, she took it and it has sat on a stack untouched ever since. That was back in September or October.
I agree with BM - the fact that its from you makes worth ignoring to a WAS....But let it go. You did what you wanted to for a good reason. Don't get discouraged by your W reactions. just learn from it and try different things.
Dont touch the book.
I personally didnt think that giving her the book was controlling but I do think WAS would not like any book suggestions their LBS has for them. The WAS will probably say the couldnt relate to their own diary if the LBS gave it to them.
At this point however, you gave her the book - dont take it back, just leave it on the stairs and let her do whatever she wants with it.
((()))
2point - I agree with Brklyn and its from experience. My W and I have always traded books off. Once ther bomb dropped she "hated with a passion" any book I gave her, and they weren't even relationship books. I did however, try to share the 5 Love Languages with her. She was too busy with the 500 Hate Languages at the time.
LOL Rick! The 500 hate languages; I don't think is a book so much as an instinctual recitation of the WAS!
W is out at the moment and I'm at the house with S10 and have walked by the book on the stairs 20 times.... not going to pick it up! I swear!!!!
Everything I described in the comment block that you responded to is true and accurate. I know this because my W has said as much AND she has been in T for quite awhile to address some of these very things.
I am glad that your W is taking steps to try to figure herself out.
I gave her a book that I read first, that I thought she could relate to and I ran it by a T before doing so. And it was also recommended by one of the vets on this forum.
I am still wondering about the therapist. I can not see why she would have said it was a good idea considering the situation. Pursuit is never good with someone who is trying to push us away.
Ok, when 25 recommended the book, it was to give us, the LBS, an insight into what may be going on with our WAS. NOT to give it to the WAS to try to show them anything.
"She is a grown up, whether you like it or not, whether you treat her like one or not.
Your behavior, while you may not mean it to, reeks of control and manipulation.
Why do you keep doing things to sabotage yourself?"
Where do you see that I don't view my W as grown up?
I read about your interactions regarding your S's injury. While I understand that you were concerned for your child (my own S sprained his ankle last night), your W is his mother and she knows how to take care of her child just as well as you do. She doesn't need reminders regarding medication.
Giving her the book, is manipulative because you had a hope that she would see some of herself reflected in it and you had hope that she would then take a look at herself.
You didn't go as far as saying you hoped it would make her realize that she is making a mistake, that is the message that she more than likely heard when she read the cover.
And believe me, she may not be reading the book, but I bet she glanced at the content.
I realize that some people did not see this move as controlling.
Manipulation is a form of control.
Right now, anything that you do that suggests to your W that you think she is wrong, making mistakes, or disagree with her actions, even when you think you are being a positive, helpful influence, is gonna bite you in the butt...
There are reasons that going dim or dark is suggested. There are reasons you are told to detach. There are reasons that you are told to GAL and focus on yourself.
Understand that you are not going to talk your way out of something that you acted your way into.
Become mindful of yourself and your thoughts and behaviors.
It really does help.
CAT - thanks for the continued dialogue. It is forcing me to think through the events of the past few days as well as my future actions.
"Giving her the book, is manipulative because you had a hope that she would see some of herself reflected in it and you had hope that she would then take a look at herself."
I really have to disagree on this particular point. After reading the book, I finally started to recognize some of the things that my W had been dealing with, with me, with the kids, with life in general and really the only message I wanted to send my W via the book was that "I get it!"
"You didn't go as far as saying you hoped it would make her realize that she is making a mistake, that is the message that she more than likely heard when she read the cover."
Well, again that was not my intent. I guess I can only hope she doesn't view it that way.
"Right now, anything that you do that suggests to your W that you think she is wrong, making mistakes, or disagree with her actions, even when you think you are being a positive, helpful influence, is gonna bite you in the butt...
There are reasons that going dim or dark is suggested. There are reasons you are told to detach. There are reasons that you are told to GAL and focus on yourself.
Understand that you are not going to talk your way out of something that you acted your way into.
Become mindful of yourself and your thoughts and behaviors.
It really does help."
These ^^^^ are all excellent reminders!! Thanks for the input!
Understand that you are not going to talk your way out of something that you acted your way into.
^^^^ That is a really good reminder. I am writing that one down.
the only message I wanted to send my W via the book was that "I get it!"
Get what ???
I get it! As in what I stated immediately before that exclamation - "After reading the book, I finally started to recognize some of the things that my W had been dealing with, with me, with the kids, with life in general..."
I guess what I am saying is that the book sort of helped me to see from my W's perspective what I had been viewing from my own selfish perspective. It added a layer of texture that helps me better understand what my W is dealing with. And if that enhanced perspective helps me to better understand why my W needed her space and our separation and also what I need to work on, then I view that as a positive.
So for example, the book talks about the authors struggle with always being there for everyone else (H, kids, friends, etc.) but not spending time focusing on herself, her needs or her growth. It also talks about sacrifices she made in her life and how she needed the time away to find her true self.
All of those things ^^^^ are true of my W. And while I can and did say "I'm sorry" or "I'll change", etc., by actually acknowledging that "I get it" I think gives my W space for her to not be so guilt ridden about her decisions while she continues to work through her issues.
Ahhh...
Okay, so even though you went against Sandi's rules ..
1
3
5
8
17
24
and possibly...34
??????
Ahhh...
Okay, so even though you went against Sandi's rules ..
1 -
Only did this in the weeks immediately following the bomb (early September 2011)3 -
Uh well..... have had the DR/DB books for months and never shared them but if "a year by the sea" is considered a M book then I guess I'm guilty. Does it count if the book was located in the travel section of the bookstore? 5 -
I have had no discussion about our future since before I moved out back in November8 -
Guilty! But I got the book at a 1/2 price book store. Does that count or am I just cheap?17 -
Working on that....24 -
God that is so flippin hard! We're approaching 6 months since the bomb and 3 months since I moved out. I know it is true but so damn hard! and possibly...34 -
I never did this. However, she did tell me early on that she had noticed my changes and was pissed that it took the bomb for me to wake up.??????
I know I'm being a little flip here but only to keep myself sane. I think I'm doing a lot of things right in terms of my DB'ng and some things still require some work, (i.e. not fully detaching, occasional pursuit, etc.).
As we have covered in earlier posts, my control tendencies are still a work in progress. And sometimes they surface in ways that I don't even realize but which you and CAT have pointed out.
Ahhh...
Okay, so even though you went against Sandi's rules ..
1 -
Only did this in the weeks immediately following the bomb (early September 2011)3 -
Uh well..... have had the DR/DB books for months and never shared them but if "a year by the sea" is considered a M book then I guess I'm guilty. Does it count if the book was located in the travel section of the bookstore? 5 -
I have had no discussion about our future since before I moved out back in November8 -
Guilty! But I got the book at a 1/2 price book store. Does that count or am I just cheap?17 -
Working on that....24 -
God that is so flippin hard! We're approaching 6 months since the bomb and 3 months since I moved out. I know it is true but so damn hard! and possibly...34 -
I never did this. However, she did tell me early on that she had noticed my changes and was pissed that it took the bomb for me to wake up.??????
You were trying to point out something other than her way right now.
3-Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage booksWhat part of that, wasn't a marriage book ? That led to what YOU want ?
And No..
5-Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.An encouraging book about a SIMILAR situation , that worked out (in the future) with the same result that you have stated YOU want...
8-Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". Nuff said.....
17-You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.I missed the part where it said to TELL them....was that in there ? Did I just miss that ???
24-Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!Sorry, I missed the BUT in that...you are the exception then...
34-Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.You did it when you handed her that book....
Your turn ???
OK, these ^^^^^ are all good points. I've learned my lesson. Now what? I can't un-ring the bell. So what do I do next? Seriously, what do I do next?
@ 2
We all make mistakes. Please do not beat yourself over it. It's hard when you feel your heart is in the right place.. it's hard when DBing goes against the grain of our very soul sometimes.
What to do you ask?
Let go... truly.
Two little words - yet the most difficult thing that will be ever be asked of you.
You CANNOT fix this. Even if you are coming from a loving place - it is your w's journey. It's up to her to do the work.
What's the saying - if you give a man a fish - you feed him for a day. If you teach a man to fish - you feed him for a lifetime.
Teach her how to fish. That doesn't mean fix it. That means support her but let her put in the leg work.
If/When - she expresses fear - validate.
If/When - she does something that shows growth - applaud loudly.
If/When - she messes up - don't rub her face in it.
Love her for exactly where she is now, not who she was or who she might be.
Accept her for who she is now. That does not mean being a doormat. It just means to not punish her for not meeting YOUR expectations.
If you can learn to truly do those things, you will do EXACTLY what your heart wants.
You will support her.
It will then be in her ball court to accept it and take it from there.
a hair shirt maybe -
I think its okay, you just gave her a book. Dont give her another book.
Keep moving forward and showing your changes
What to do.....
I'm gonna ask you what YOU think you should do..
I LOVE Val's post to you...
I think she explained very well what you should take a look at.
I would say it in a lot less words. You need to work on detaching from the situation at hand.
I think that working of specific areas has left you very defensive, and argumentative. THAT rings a bell with me and others around you.
I think you should take a look at why you become that way. And really think about HOW you are that way, and how being that way affected things in your marriage.
I think that we have addressed control enough to know that that is a problem area for you. The thing now is find out the "whys' of your issues.
That may be too deep for now though. You are getting to the point where you may be able to face yourself, although the defensiveness has to go first.
I think that putting that focus on you healing, and changing behavior patterns will take the focus off of your wife, and that HAS to happen before you can take a step forward.
2, this is HARD stuff man...
I see where you are, and although they aren't your shoes, they were pretty damned similar. ( mine didn't have the pink stripe )
Lets go back to a beginners mind for now.
@ 2
We all make mistakes. Please do not beat yourself over it. It's hard when you feel your heart is in the right place.. it's hard when DBing goes against the grain of our very soul sometimes.
What to do you ask?
Let go... truly.
Two little words - yet the most difficult thing that will be ever be asked of you.
You CANNOT fix this. Even if you are coming from a loving place - it is your w's journey. It's up to her to do the work.
What's the saying - if you give a man a fish - you feed him for a day. If you teach a man to fish - you feed him for a lifetime.
Teach her how to fish. That doesn't mean fix it. That means support her but let her put in the leg work.
If/When - she expresses fear - validate.
If/When - she does something that shows growth - applaud loudly.
If/When - she messes up - don't rub her face in it.
Love her for exactly where she is now, not who she was or who she might be.
Accept her for who she is now. That does not mean being a doormat. It just means to not punish her for not meeting YOUR expectations.
If you can learn to truly do those things, you will do EXACTLY what your heart wants.
You will support her.
It will then be in her ball court to accept it and take it from there.
Val - thanks for your post.
I know I need to truly "let go". I'm terrified of the thought. I actually discussed this with my C today, particularly from the perspective of finances which has been weighing heavy on my mind. I think when I can get to that point of letting go of the finances, then I will have crossed the threshold. I'm just not sure if I'm there yet. Getting close... but not there yet.
"If/When - she expresses fear - validate.
I haven't seen anything along these lines but will keep this in mind when/if it occurs.
If/When - she does something that shows growth - applaud loudly.
She recently announced that her "hermit days are over". I told her how glad I was for her and have been encouraging her to keep that positive attitude and said I would support her where I could in this area.
If/When - she messes up - don't rub her face in it.
This past Friday when she was to have hosted a girls martini party, she didn't get the house cleaned and she had to change her plans accordingly. I was so tempted to help her clean the house so she could continue her growth but I decided not to rescue her. And I held my tongue when it became obvious that she wasn't going to get the house cleaned.
Love her for exactly where she is now, not who she was or who she might be.
This ^^^^ I find to be very difficult. I think it mostly comes from resentment I am feeling about her decision to break apart our family. It is not "all consuming" but the thought of loving her for where she is is a hard concept for me to wrap my mind around. I guess this needs more work on my part.
Accept her for who she is now. That does not mean being a doormat. It just means to not punish her for not meeting YOUR expectations."
All good advice here. Thanks again for sharing!
What to do.....
I'm gonna ask you what YOU think you should do..
I LOVE Val's post to you...
I think she explained very well what you should take a look at.
I would say it in a lot less words. You need to work on detaching from the situation at hand.
I think that working of specific areas has left you very defensive, and argumentative. THAT rings a bell with me and others around you.
I think you should take a look at why you become that way. And really think about HOW you are that way, and how being that way affected things in your marriage.
I think that we have addressed control enough to know that that is a problem area for you. The thing now is find out the "whys' of your issues.
That may be too deep for now though. You are getting to the point where you may be able to face yourself, although the defensiveness has to go first.
I think that putting that focus on you healing, and changing behavior patterns will take the focus off of your wife, and that HAS to happen before you can take a step forward.
2, this is HARD stuff man...
I see where you are, and although they aren't your shoes, they were pretty damned similar. ( mine didn't have the pink stripe )
Lets go back to a beginners mind for now.
Need to chew on this for a bit....
Val - thanks for your post.
I know I need to truly "let go". I'm terrified of the thought. I actually discussed this with my C today, particularly from the perspective of finances which has been weighing heavy on my mind. I think when I can get to that point of letting go of the finances, then I will have crossed the threshold.
2- Be careful here ^^^. Although I think this is a necessary step for you and will perhaps help in detachment it was only a minor step in the grand scheme of things for me.
The emotional triggers and control issues come in a lot of shapes and sizes. Don't assume that when you accomplish the finance part that the rest will domino. If it happens that way for you then great but do your best to have minimal expectation.
Best!
Also, Mach &/or 2- I had interpreted the 37 steps from Sandi as the blueprint for the LRT. Myself and I feel 2 as well are not at that stage so is it within good practice to adhere to those steps we feel help and perhaps modify or not be as strict with others?
I haven't looked in a while but feel I follow them pretty strictly but I'm just curious if we do have some positive interactions periodically w/ our WAS, shouldn't we do what works moreso than follow the steps to the law?
What do you think 2?
Also, Mach &/or 2- I had interpreted the 37 steps from Sandi as the blueprint for the LRT. Myself and I feel 2 as well are not at that stage so is it within good practice to adhere to those steps we feel help and perhaps modify or not be as strict with others?
I haven't looked in a while but feel I follow them pretty strictly but I'm just curious if we do have some positive interactions periodically w/ our WAS, shouldn't we do what works moreso than follow the steps to the law?
What do you think 2?
I think the rules are a blueprint of concepts that help get the newbie on a track for survival and to help set the stage for a possible R if one is to be achieved.
Things like stopping the ILY's, begging, pleading, heavy pursuit are all killers and need to be dealt with to stop the bleeding as it were.
Then I think as things evolve and time passes each LBS must determine what is working and what is not and do less of what is not working and more of what is working and modify as needed to meet their unique sitch.
Someone else made a similar point on this forum the other day.
I agree. Such a constant ebb and flow. We should be awarded a Bachelor of Science degree for all the experiements and strategies we go through.
Do what works is my #1 rule.
Following Sandi's rules in September I made a point to get off the phone with my H first. He did not like that at all. Really bad move. But I recognized that he did not like that and didnt do it again.
Also, Mach &/or 2- I had interpreted the 37 steps from Sandi as the blueprint for the LRT. Myself and I feel 2 as well are not at that stage so is it within good practice to adhere to those steps we feel help and perhaps modify or not be as strict with others?
I haven't looked in a while but feel I follow them pretty strictly but I'm just curious if we do have some positive interactions periodically w/ our WAS, shouldn't we do what works moreso than follow the steps to the law?
What do you think 2?
Did you feel that what he was doing, was working ?
When you read the interaction, and the result...
Was that working ???
Or was that more of the same old, same old ??
M1 - "I'm gonna ask you what YOU think you should do.."
I should detach from my W. I should cut the financial ties that bind us. I should probably move on.
M1"I think that working of specific areas has left you very defensive, and argumentative. THAT rings a bell with me and others around you.
I think you should take a look at why you become that way. And really think about HOW you are that way, and how being that way affected things in your marriage."
M1 - "I think that putting that focus on you healing, and changing behavior patterns will take the focus off of your wife, and that HAS to happen before you can take a step forward."
We're probably going to need a psychiatrists couch to get to the root of all this. What I've talked about in the past relating to my sources of control tendencies is probably the same place where we'll find the source of my defensiveness.
Do we really need to go there?
M1 - "Lets go back to a beginners mind for now."
Not sure I understand what you are getting at with this ^^^^.
Do we really need to go there?
I don't
And I don't have your answer. I'm not the one that has to live in your skin though......
Realistically, I don't need your answers to any of this.
Your answers are for you to have....
Do YOU really have to go there ???
M1 - "Do YOU really have to go there ???"
I don't know. I mean I think I understand the source but that doesn't mean I know how to manage it or if I even should manage it versus exorcising it out of my system if that is even possible.
M1 - "Lets go back to a beginners mind for now."
Not sure I understand what you are getting at with this ^^^^. Can you elaborate?
Not sure I understand what you are getting at with this ^^^^. Can you elaborate?
DB101
What are your goals ?
What are you doing differently ?
Identifying the things that YOU don't like about how you interact with people.
How do you know if you are moving towards your goals, or away from them, if your goals are not clear ?
Are your goals achievable without your wife helping you get there ?
If your goals are tied to another human deciding whether or not you can reach them, then you are setting yourself up for failure.
Do you like yourself, when you get certain reactions from other people ?
Are you too comfortable in your daily routine ?
Access where YOU are for yourself once a week to make sure you keep yourself in line with those things.
Are you staying consistent with what is working for you ?
Are you living your life, "as if" you are going to be just fine when you interact with her ?
Are you happy when you interact ?
Are you thought stopping ? Mindreading ?
Assuming her feelings ?
How are you practicing your validations skills ?
More ????
Been wrestling with this all day.....
Went over to the house today to walk S10 to the bus stop. W is super sick. She texts me later to tell me she has super aggressive form of pneumonia and is about 24 hours away from being admitted to hospital and asks if I would pick S up from school. Not a problem I respond.
I check in on her later (is that pursuit?) and she tells me she has to stay in bed and take massive doses of antibiotics. Asks me if I could tend to the boys, (i.e. get them home, fed, bed and then ready for school in the morning). I said yes, no problem.
I know I should be detaching but she has no real support system and she is super sick. I think I am being thoughtful and caring with no expectations whatsoever, but I am concerned that this is pursuit and that I am rescuing her, again.
Any thoughts?
You're doing what any normal compassionate human being would do.
I think its okay because she asked you for help and you have obliged versus when she didnt ask and you just did it anyway. Dont go above and beyond what she has asked. Dont nurse her just take care of the kids.
Agree w Brklyn....no matter what, you have to team up when it comes to things that affect the kids
Picked S10 up from school this afternoon and took him home. House is a wreck. W is in terrible shape. I felt bad for her. Made her a cup of hot tea. I did not take out the trash!
I agreed to come back early tomorrow morning to wake the boys and get them off to school. W was very appreciative. Said thank you for helping me. I said you're welcome and left with nothing else said.
With the exception of making the cup of tea, it almost felt like a clinical visit. Maybe a sign of emotional detachment?
Did it seem like a clinical visit because you felt like she saw it that way...or because from your end that's all it was?
In the first case it would be emotional detachment on her part...in the second case it would be emotional detachment on your part.
Did it seem like a clinical visit because you felt like she saw it that way...or because from your end that's all it was?
In the first case it would be emotional detachment on her part...in the second case it would be emotional detachment on your part.
W was practically a zombie. For me it felt clinical because that is all it was. House is a wreck and I don't care. Ordinarily that would drive me up a wall!
Stopped by the house early this morning to get kids up and ready for school. W comes barreling out of the bedroom 30 minutes later and shouts/coughs, did you turn off my alarm clock, the kids are going to be late for school!?!? No, I reply calmly. I told you I would come over early to get the kids up. S10 is in the shower and everything is under control. W zombies back towards the bedroom.
Yep, definitely detachment on my part. Feel nothing emotional. At all!
^^^^This is great 2, keep it up!!
Yep, definitely detachment on my part. Feel nothing emotional. At all!
Then keep it up. It'll only help you.
FWIW, I think if you can focus on you through this, your journey (and BTW I am just starting to get this myself) and not be a slave to hers, then you won't agonize over the meaning of every little interaction. You will just be walking your path, and letting her walk hers in the meantime. Then, this sitch would be so much easier to handle without the mental gymnastics. She's sick, the kids have needs in the meantime, you're walking your path in the meantime and sure its no problem to help out.
BTW 2, when the shyte hits the fan like with this illness, she might notice that its you that's there, the mature, strong, moral, patient, unconditionally loving father of her kids. Where's the goofy OM at this time? Right....not there. You are there.
So I'm on my way to an audiologist appointment and my phone rings. Its my W who is in total panic mode. She can't breathe and she is tears. So I race home and she looks like she is standing on deaths door.
I race her to the emergency room where they immediately begin oxygen a nebulizer breathing treatment, draw 6 vials of blood, place her on an IV steroidal drip followed by an antibiotic drip. XXrays are next followed by possible hospitalization.
W says thank you, like she would to a friend. I just nod and say nothing.
Another day.....
Actions speak louder than words. Your actions today have spoken...she may not act like it, or acknowledge it...but she noticed nonetheless. Keep doing what's right and have ZERO expectations.
2 out of all the people she could have called she chose you. You did the right thing.
You're my hero 2....rescuing a damsel in distress!
When it counted she called YOU!
This is a good sign. Do not stay with her in the hospital and DO NOT clean up your house. Let her come home after her hospital stay to the house in the disarray she left the house in. Maybe take the kids out to dinner so you are not tempted to straighten up
2,
Let me ask you something....
Why did you do that ?
(I am gonna assume <gasp> that you did it because it was the right thing to do. Your boys needed you, and you needed to be there for them)
THAT is what I have been talking about here...
You did what is right, regardless of the reaction.
You weren't looking to her for guidance. You weren't looking toward her for validation. You weren't doing it because you thought she may come running back if you did.
You did it because it was the right thing to do....
I'm proud of you for that....
The other part is....
That it ends now.
The wondering about if she did this, felt this way, or noticed this....ends now.
Who gives a schidt if she did ?
You know what you did was right....
That is the feather you wear in your hat.
Even when they're in a fog, they're in a fog.
So W has pneumonia in 3 lobes of her right lung. Her oxygen intake was at 72 when I got her to the ER, (normal is above 95). She has now been admitted to the hospital and will likely be there for the next 2 days.
W tells me, "can you take care of the kids?". Really?!? No, I am a heartless SOB who doesn't care about you or the kids! /sarc
As I'm following the ambulance for the 20 mile ride to the hospital W's phone rings (apparently she handed it to me when we were at the ER). Guess who's on the other line? Why none other than the OM! I was so tempted to answer....... but let it go to VM instead.
After we get settled into the hospital room W says "the house is a major disaster!". You're telling me, I say to myself. She then says "the boys should have clean clothes." Uh, yea I know, I dressed them this morning, I again say to myself.
W's cell phone rings again (still in my possession) and I pull it out of my pocket look at the caller I'd (OM again) and hand it to her with a smile.
Ugh!
Dude, she's sick for an otherwise healthy, young woman.
Dude - I don't know how you didn't answer it when that whackjob OM called.
I guess you're way more mature than I. My blood would have been boiling to invite this guy over for a little "chat".
2 Man - you have the heart of a saint. I got to give you that.
I guess you just have to live "your" life, continue being a great Dad and let her go.
You did the right thin, for her and the kids.
You are an AMAZING person for not answering her phone.... Mother Theresa would have answered that call- you are a saint!!
I hope she recovers soon.
Hey 2, sorry about your W being sick. My w was just hospitalized a couple weeks ago and i was the only one that showed up for her for support. I think it resulted in some positives and I hope your support for her does the same.
F the OM, he isn't sh*t compared to you!
Lots to post tonight.
Spent the afternoon with my W making sure she gets settled in the hospital. Left at 4 to pick up the kids and bring them by to see her before heading off to soccer practice.
The kids were funny, crazy, out of control all at the same time. It was a bit much for my W considering her condition. After about 45 minutes we left.
As I was leaving W says, "thanks for everything today." I turned around and said, "you don't have to thank me." Said in a way that clearly conveyed that this is what husbands are supposed to do.
On the way to soccer I call W's parents to give them an update on W's condition. They seemed appreciative and said they would call her before it go to late.
After we get to soccer practice, my W's sisters H (BIL2) sends me a text to see how I'm doing. No indication that he is aware of W's hospitalization. I call him and fill him in on the details and also that there is no movement on our sitch.
He then shares that apparently W's brother (BIL1) is now aware of our sitch. W had told me specifically that she wasn't going to tell him. BIL2 goes on to tell me about an apparent text exchange between BIL1 and my W that goes something along the lines of... "you need to stick it out, its what we do."
Because BIL1 has a sardonic sense of humor, we don't really know what he means. Stick it out in terms of the M or stick it out as in, hang in there. No flippin idea and I guess it doesn't really matter.
Except, now one more member of W's family is aware of our sitch which kind of, sort of has a cementing effect on things from my perspective. This is why I've not told but one person in my family about my sitch.
Later in the evening, W's boss calls to see how W is doing and I give her the details and her boss tells me that she has been worried about my W, feels she is taking on to much work and has sensed that she is very stressed and is going to have to have a "come to Jesus meeting" with my W. Oh boy!!!
After soccer practice while driving home, I call W to see how she is doing. She just had another breathing treatment and is still on oxygen. Said she is feeling better but still terrible at the same time. Again she says thanks for everything.
So that about wraps up my super crazy day. I am exhausted but needed to get this all out so as not to dwell on any of it.
Tomorrow... tomorrow is another day!
And I thought the day couldn't get any worse..... got the following facebook message from my W's brother, (BIL1):
"Hey man - great photo of the guys!! Not sure what to say to you 2TP - Mrs 2TP is my sister, and things are not working out for the two of you. The implusive part of me wants to get on a plane and and beat the living sh!t out of you. The rational (married) side of me know's there are two sides to every record!! The sane emotion I am left with is sorrow ... it's a damn shame 2TP - your kids are going to come of age in a broken home. That truly aches my heart pal. It is what it is - you're a good guy 2TP - always thought that about you ... my sister is also a good person, and she comes first. I'm so sorry 2TP."
This is how I responded:
"BIL1, I understand you are family and where your loyalties lie. So I get where you are coming from. I too am sorry. More than you could possibly imagine. This is not something that I want nor thought would ever happen. And I hope to pull back from the brink. And yes, there are 2 sides. That is all I'll say about that. I am keeping my heart open but Mrs 2TP has to make a move."
And he has no idea that his sister, the woman who I love and married over 18 years ago is having an A.
And he has no idea that I spent the entire day in the hospital with his sister, the woman I love who has broken my heart.
Sigh!
2tp -
Wow... You are such a class act. You have handled your W's health issue and your BILs with such poise and kindness. I agree with others - we are talking Mother Teresa level here...
I hope your W wakes up soon and realizes what a fool she is being. You should feel really proud of yourself, even under this very tough situation.
Hang in there!
The implusive part of me wants to get on a plane and and beat the living sh!t out of you
2 - how can this guy say something like that? Sorry, but what an a-hole. What have you ever done to your W and kids to deserve that comment? So, he's basing this threat on what? I could see that feeling if you were mistreating your family. What would he think if he knew his beloved sister was cheating on you and willing to destroy a family and hurt her kids? He might not be so quick to threaten then.
When I read your posts I want to crawl through the computer line to your house, pull myself out of the monitor, find the OM and lay waste. I just hate seeing someone so good get used and then get threatened like that. Phew........
I'm with you Rick^^^ However, we have no idea what Mrs. 2TP has told her brother so who knows what erronious info he has and is acting from. Its his choice to believe it or not and eventually the truth will come out.
Keep on 2, Rick & I got your back whenever!!
Got the kids off to school this morning then went to the hospital to check on my W. She is still very sick. The doctor said she'd be here until at least Monday!! Yesterday they thought she'd be here until Saturday. She is very sick!
When I got to the hospital W began sobbing. I sat on the edge of the bed to comfort her. She said she was "so sorry. Didn't know why her brother said what he did".
WTF?? How does she know? I certainly didn't tell her.
I can't be sure, but I'm thinking she might be having regrets. Of course she is very sick... but I'm the one here taking care of her.
She has had a few more crying spells since I've been here. All I can do is try to comfort her and she isn't pushing me away.
I am having ZERO expectations about anything. Just praying she recovers and we'll figure out the rest later.
2tp -
My prayers are with you, your wife and your entire family.
W continues to slowly improve but it is a long struggle for her. Just 5 steps to the bathroom and back and she can barely breath or walk. I'm glad I can be there to help her to and fro.
At one point this afternoon she was bent over on the bed trying to stretch her back. Then she picked up a brush and started to brush her hair. I asked her if she would like me to brush her hair and she said enthusiastically, SURE! Hair brushing is something she has always enjoyed and so I was happy to be able to provide her this small comfort.
My W's love language is Acts of Service and I've got to think I am filling her love tank to the brim. Of course, there are no expectations. She is a human in need and I am there to help.
I'm back home for the moment. I'll be collecting the boys and taking them to see their mom and then probably call it an early night.
I realize that some of this may be viewed as pursuit. And that may be true. However, my W is very ill and I think that my actions are coming from the right place and for the right reasons.
At one point I asked my W if she was afraid and she said yes. I told her I'd be there as long as she needed me to be. I also asked her if it bothered her that I was spending the time with her at the hospital and she said no. She said she appreciates me being there and helping her.
I don't see it as pursuit, in DR it says we should treat the WA as a close neighbor. I would do that for a close neighbor.
As I said earlier in your thread, she was/is a sick puppy. Really!
She needs help and support right now, she is the mother of your children and your wife.
I don't see it as pursuit, in DR it says we should treat the WA as a close neighbor. I would do that for a close neighbor.
As I said earlier in your thread, she was/is a sick puppy. Really!
She needs help and support right now, she is the mother of your children and your wife.
Yep, I agree. Plus, DR says to do what works....
I realize that some of this may be viewed as pursuit. And that may be true. However, my W is very ill and I think that my actions are coming from the right place and for the right reasons.
At one point I asked my W if she was afraid and she said yes. I told her I'd be there as long as she needed me to be. I also asked her if it bothered her that I was spending the time with her at the hospital and she said no. She said she appreciates me being there and helping her.
I think you are doing this for the right reasons and I think its great you asked her if she was comfortable with this and she said yes. Keep having no expectations but I think this will be a blessing in disguise for all of you.
Prayers that she is ok!
Quote from last nights post:
And I thought the day couldn't get any worse..... got the following facebook message from my W's brother, (BIL1):
"Hey man - great photo of the guys!! Not sure what to say to you 2TP - Mrs 2TP is my sister, and things are not working out for the two of you. The implusive part of me wants to get on a plane and and beat the living sh!t out of you. The rational (married) side of me know's there are two sides to every record!! The sane emotion I am left with is sorrow ... it's a damn shame 2TP - your kids are going to come of age in a broken home. That truly aches my heart pal. It is what it is - you're a good guy 2TP - always thought that about you ... my sister is also a good person, and she comes first. I'm so sorry 2TP."
This is how I responded:
"BIL1, I understand you are family and where your loyalties lie. So I get where you are coming from. I too am sorry. More than you could possibly imagine. This is not something that I want nor thought would ever happen. And I hope to pull back from the brink. And yes, there are 2 sides. That is all I'll say about that. I am keeping my heart open but Mrs 2TP has to make a move."
And he has no idea that his sister, the woman who I love and married over 18 years ago is having an A.
And he has no idea that I spent the entire day in the hospital with his sister, the woman I love who has broken my heart.
Sigh!
So tonight BIL1 replies to my FB message from last night with the following:
"Good luck... you might want to keep the trailer - it could become your new home!! Let me know if I can help you somehow ... will do pretty much anything that does not compromise my sister first."
Could he be any more heartless? I mean really! He doesn't have the first clue what is going on between me and my W/his sister, that W is having an A and that the only reason she isn't the one out of the house is because I chose to let her stay and I moved out instead!
I know it is important not to escalate. While I shared his first round of comments with BIL2 because we had been discussing it, I don't think I should share this because it will just create animosity within the family. So I have to sit on this crap! I'm so friggin pissed and hurt! How long must I continue to be the one to hold my head high in the face of all this BS? It is really so tiring!
==========================================
Went back to the hospital with the boys this evening. W seems to be improving ever so slightly. The Dr's have removed the IV drip for the night and they have also stopped breathing treatments for the time being.
They still need to perform the echocardiogram and tomorrow they will be doing another set of xrays to see what her lungs look like. The Dr. sad she would be in the hospital until at least Monday and possibly Tuesday or longer.
One of the items among many that W asked me to bring back to the hospital was some dry shampoo. Once I delivered it she asked me if I would massage it into her hair which I did. Then I brushed her hair for the second time today.
Later during our evening visit W was complaining about her back and so I asked her if she would like a back rub and she said YES! I massaged her back which she seemed to thoroughly enjoy.
Upon leaving for the evening, the boys gave her a hug and kisses and I gave her a kiss on the forehead and told her that I hope she gets some rest and feels better. W said thanks for everything.
So... lots of togetherness with W under a difficult set of circumstances. I was able to demonstrate compassion in a way that I probably haven't for a long time. And, she seemed very open and appreciative. Again, no expectations but I am so glad we were able to connect.
Tomorrow is another day.
2tp,
I'm sorry to hear your wife is sick..she'll be in my prayers.
Alot has happened in your world in the past few days.
As I was leaving W says, "thanks for everything today." I turned around and said, "you don't have to thank me." Said in a way that clearly conveyed that this is what husbands are supposed to do.
Maybe next time just say a simple "you're welcome". Remember, you are supposed to SHOWING her this (no words). Also I don't understand the husband comment. I would do alot of what you are doing for my sister or my best friend.. that's what you do when you love someone. I don't feel it has anything to do with being married.
I think you are handling your BIL1 well.
And he has no idea that I spent the entire day in the hospital with his sister, the woman I love who has broken my heart.
Don't spend too much time with thoughts like these. They will only upset you and cause negative emotions like this.
Could he be any more heartless? I mean really! He doesn't have the first clue what is going on between me and my W/his sister, that W is having an A and that the only reason she isn't the one out of the house is because I chose to let her stay and I moved out instead!
I know it hurts what he said, but the guy's not heartless. He loves his sister.
Also - don't assume he's dumb.
AND
You moved out as a loving act to your w correct? So who cares who notices it.
It's funny how our loving actions that seem so "loving" get twisted when our hearts get hurt. It really should make us take a step back and look at our motives.
Which brings me to your w. I find it really interesting that your wife's love language is acts of service AND that you are such a fixer/rescuer.
Idk - it's just that it's natural for us to love someone with our own LL vs. our partners.
I'm probably not going to be popular for this.. but I think you need to be careful with your w.
Absolutely take care of the kids.. but the backrub and brushing of the hair... I don't know.
It's funny how our WAS chooses when or when not to take advantage of their spouse status.
Your wife wants independence and freedom. Wouldn't the supportive thing to do is to let her work through this? Not visit her and play the role of "husband"?
You say you are a rescuer/fixer... would the loving thing is this situation would have been to sit back and do nothing? To not rescue her emotionally?
Probably a really hard thing to do for you and would possibly get a negative response for her...
...but sometimes the loving thing to do... isn't very popular.. or comfortable.
but only you can answer those questions. You're actions are ones that you need to live with.
One last thing I promise - I think we get all caught up with "do what works" mantra...
...but the question is.. does it really work? And more importantly is it right?
For me - I spent 6 months thinking that being loving and nice to my w - no matter what - was doing what works. She was backing away but would still reach out from time to time. When she reached out - I would be the dutiful wife.
She was always appreciative and said thanks so I thought "this is working".
It's only been in the past couple months that I have realized that it wasn't really working. Just something that my wife expected of me.
So I switched to doing what's right and loving in the eyes of God.......
... and ya know what.. what I am learning isn't "working" either for my m.
And that's okay for me... because I know my heart and I know I'm being loving.
I guess that's a long winded way of saying "Don't get caught up on those three words".
They should be rewritten to "Do what's loving".
I'm not saying you are me or your w is my w... just some food for thought.
I realize that some of this may be viewed as pursuit. And that may be true. However, my W is very ill and I think that my actions are coming from the right place and for the right reasons.
At one point I asked my W if she was afraid and she said yes. I told her I'd be there as long as she needed me to be. I also asked her if it bothered her that I was spending the time with her at the hospital and she said no. She said she appreciates me being there and helping her.
2 - you are definitley doing the right thing. You are such a good soul. Take care of her here, she needs you.
Everyone who has posted recently, thank you! I've got a lot going on and a lot on my mind at the moment and can't really muster the discipline necessary to respond to individual posts. Know that I do read them and appreciate the time and effort it takes to formulate some of the great insight and advice that I have been receiving. For now I'm just going to continue to post my thoughts so they don't get bottled up.
==============================
A bit of a rough day today. W appeared to be doing better earlier this morning and later this afternoon she definitely seemed to be on the mend. However, she failed an oxygen saturation test that would have determined her ability to go home. She's not leaving any time soon.
She also had an echocardiogram performed and her Ejection Fraction #'s are so low that she is at severe risk for heart failure or worse! Essentially the fluid in her lungs is so severe that it is putting pressure on her heart and must be treated. The Dr's gave her an injection of something called lasix that is supposed to be some powerful diuretic that helps the body eliminate fluids to alleviate the pressure on the heart. I pulled the Dr. aside to ask if this was a serious condition and she said yes.
While I was at the hospital this evening, W wanted to take a shower and felt good enough to do so. However, she could barely dry herself and I had to go in and help her get dressed and back into bed. She was so severely winded that I almost called the nurse in. But after getting her back on the oxygen, she recovered fairly quickly.
My W could sense my growing concern with everything that was developing and told me not to worry, she'd be ok. She asked me to leave since we was concerned that S13 who was with me seemed like he was getting a little upset. So I reluctantly left but as soon as I got home I called her to reassure her and myself. W again said she'd be ok and not to worry.
Since my W has been in the hospital and I have been spending more time at the house I have come to discover that her life is really in shambles. As I commented previously, the house is a wreck. This includes trash cans that need to be emptied, toilets that need to be cleaned, dishes that need to be washed and put away, laundry that either needs to be washed or folded and pout away. The house is just a mess!
Also, I have been driving my W's car since her car gets way better gas mileage than mine dies and I have been jackassing all over town the past few days. Even the car is a mess. trash everywhere, oil 3000 miles past the required change interval, inspection 2 months over due, etc.
So, W wants to be rid of me and exercise her independence but clearly she is struggling and now that she is deathly ill and will require 6 weeks of recovery, her plans are going to have to go out the window at least for the time being.
It is going to be interesting to see how things will play out in the coming days and weeks. She is not going to be able to manage the kids and the house without my help. Will she let me help? I guess we'll find out. I know that she has been relying on me quite a bit these past few days.
Just today, she asked me to bring some clean underwear, shampoo, razor and other essentials with me to the hospital. And she has not pushed me away when I have been helping her walk, brushing her hair, rubbing her back or kissing her forehead when I leave.
Well, that's all for now.
You are doing just what you need to do. She's getting the treatment she needs from both the medical side and the home side (you).
Prayers to you and your family.
2 hope W makes out ok and my prayers are with you. And the family. I think your expectations are increasing. How will you feel when she is better and she is back on her journey? Do help but rid your expectstions or you could get hurt again. Hang in there buddy
Thanks for the prayers, everyone!
Rick - It's a little early in the morning for a slap up side the head, don't you think? On the other hand; thank you sir, may I have another?
2TP: I am sorry to read your updates.
I would be so hard NOT to get some expectations building from this sitch.
Man 2, feeling for you and your w, hope she can get on the mend asap.
It seems that no matter what stage of the journey we are in with our WAS when the ish hits the fan, especially health concerns, like you W's or mine, everything is thrown out and we are their for them to support and love.
I do agree w/ Rick about the expectations. Is it hard for you not to begin cleaining up all the messes? If you do it, are you doing it for you, for her, the kids? Any expectations?
When I finally accepted my W was gone and had her own place (took a while) I eventually one weekend morning went and cut her grass while she was out as it was out of control long. She really appreciated this and although I know this benefited my kids and I just wanted to do something thoughtful and helpful, I did have some kind of expectations that she notice.
Can you wait for her to ask you for help around the house or do you think it would be a good idea to bring up the topic and ask if she would like for you to help out while she is recovering?
Best 2!!
While all the advice is well-meaning, I think we can save it for once his wife is past this crisis.
She is sick...like a-step-away-from-ICU sick. The only expectation that's worth worrying about now is that she recovers.
Hopefully the lasix has done it's job by now and things are on the upswing.
Lasix didn't work. W is now being taken to ICU to try to get her heart rate under control. It has been in the 120-140 range since Thursday! Ugh!
You and your whole family are in my thoughts. Hang in there!
I've been keeping up with your story..... My heart goes out to you. I think you are doing the right thing by putting everything else (the lawyers, D papers, OM...) on the back burners and just focusing on her health. I'm sure you are scared, and she is too.
Honestly, I don't think there's any reason you need to be conscience of your expectations (and/or trying to stop them) nor do you need to worry about what 'DB would tell you to do'.... Fact is: she is very sick and you are the one stepping in to take care of her. Not because you feel obligated or someone told you to do so- its the RIGHT thing to do because you love her. Remember the other 'rule' of DB: Do what works for *your* sitch.
When all is said and done and she gets out of the hospital, there is no way she won't reflect and see all that you did for her through this. You are showing her AND your kids what unconditional love looks like.
Prayers for your family and her recovery.
2TP -
Sorry to hear the lasix didn't work... I can only imagine how you are feeling right now with everything that is going on with your family.
Don't forget to also take care of yourself. You are of no help to those around you if you are not ok. Keep posting and reaching out whenever you need it - we are here for you, sleep and eat well.
I really hope your W gets better soon!
Any updates 2? Hope she is doing ok.
W underwent a Cardiac Catheterization because the Dr's needed to see what is causing the rapid heartbeat. Turns out her heart is very weak and they detected a leaky valve. Not sure if weak heart is result of pneumonia, enlarged heart or something else. It is believed that pneumonia is the culprit.
The leaky valve is something else entirely and a TE test (or something like that) will need to be performed to determine the cause. The cardiologist said something about repairing the valve requiring open heart surgery. But not sure if necessary until that test is performed.
Good grief, when it rains it pours!
So sorry. Hope u and the boys are taking care of yourselves. I hear you same things going on with us. Everyone is getting surgery or very I'll? It is like cruel joke. Keep us updated.
Sorry to have smacked you over the head so early. But as it has been said "never let a good crisis go to waste'.
I've had the TEE test done- Its not scary and very quick. It's a good thing they found the leaky valve, but I'm sorry you have something new to deal with.
Hope you have rain boots and an umbrella.... Looks like there might be some more rain clouds ahead.
Feeling a little fluey tonight. UGH!
Praying for you ...W...and boys.
Thoughts and prayers w/ you and your family 2!!!
If you have anything "fluey" you need to stay home from the hospital.
How are things looking today, buddy?
Hey 2TP, just catching up on your thread. Wow. heavy stuff man. You're doing great. Hang in there and keep being strong without the expectations. Hope you're feeling better too!
You're doing what is right and moral in this emergency.
Thanks everyone for the kind word and prayers. They are definitely needed!
W just had xray but no update at this time. Heart rate is still through the roof! She sounds much better but can't walk on her own without getting winded.
S13 is home from school today due to illness. I'm sick as well. Ugh!
Gonna shut down this thread due to exceeding size limitation. I'll start a new one here shortly.