My old thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2215865#Post2215865Sorry, don't know how to get the click-through link.
The below is the last post on the old thread.
Thanks guys for the good advice.
My kids try to be stoic when they say anything to me about H's behaviour.
Basically, they say they don't really miss him and that everything is OK.
They may well say the same thing to him. I think they're afraid of hurting his feelings... and they haven't really accepted what is happening - i.e. that he is really 'gone'.
I'm doing stuff with them to try to make them feel happy - playing board games, going to the beach, seeing some movies, shopping for D16's prom dress, preparing for the new school year. And the new puppy is taking up most of our time and bringing so much joy.
Don't want to moan, but with the kids, and the puppy, and a household to run - and elderly parents to see to (I'm an only child), plus a full-time job to keep an eye on even when I'm on vacation, I don't have much time to do anything other than the above.
I start back at work next week when my kids go back to school, and I'm a little bit worried about how I'm going to cope, but OTOH, I count my blessings that I've got a good job and an income, and that my time is going to be taken up with so much to do.
Probably shouldn't have added the dog into the mix, but it seemed like a way to protect the kids from total heartbreak, and S13 had been given a promise before all this started. My immediate problem now is to work out what to do with puppy when I have to leave the house to be at work. He is only 12 weeks old and has not yet been left alone. He gets very agitated and whines/barks when we leave him outside.
H says just leave him in the back yard when I go to work - but I think puppy is too young to chance this - for his own wellbeing and that of the neighbours - not to mention what would happen to the garden!
I am leaning towards leaving him in his dog crate inside the house for 3 hours or so and coming back home to work from here each day until he is older. Again, not much chance for me to GAL and meet other adults!
When we originally told S13 he was getting a dog, H was still living here and working from home each day, so things would have been peachy. Now, everything's more complicated....
But really, everyone with a dog has to face this kind of issue, so I do need to suck it up!
I'm doing stuff with them to try to make them feel happy - playing board games, going to the beach, seeing some movies, shopping for D16's prom dress, preparing for the new school year. And the new puppy is taking up most of our time and bringing so much joy. [quote]
Sounds like fun stuff. What type of puppy is it again?
[quote=NLW]Don't want to moan, but with the kids, and the puppy, and a household to run - and elderly parents to see to (I'm an only child), plus a full-time job to keep an eye on even when I'm on vacation, I don't have much time to do anything other than the above.
I hear ya, NLW. This is where getting WAH to step up and either take more of his parental responsibility or, if kids cannot stay over with him, to provide you with more child support so that you can get a sitter to give you a break here and lighten your load a bit. You deserve some NLW time for yourself!
Enjoy your return to work!
Re: your pup, if you put him in the crate, maybe put him in there with a shirt or chew doll that smells like you or the kids. Something familiar? Could you come home just for lunch/check in and then go back to work?
Hi Busto,
Will do re the puppy (a whippet and, typically, a real sook).
Tonight I feel really over the idea of trying to save my marriage.
H hasn't really moved an inch in terms of his stated position to separate from me since bomb drop in August.
He's gotten progressively nastier and more withdrawn from us, to the point that he usually only sees the kids for (a very awkward) 30 mins, or so, every 3 days.
I've only been thinking I've been DBing all these months - but probably have been continuing to pursue because I just can't believe that he's doing this to us; nor have I really accepted that he truly wants to live without us.
I've apologised for my part in our marriage problems, I've been 180-ing my ass off and acting 'as if' to the best of my ability. I've listened and validated and not contacted him apart from details about the kids. I've kept the road home paved and smooth.
It's all gotten me no-where with him even though I've had some major insights into my own inadequate (hurtful, controlling, perfectionist) ways of interacting and I've changed things around in this regard so that I am much happier with myself and my relationship with my kids is much better.
BUT, I'm just about ready to give up I think. I just don't like this man. He's cold, stubborn, doesn't care for me in the least, and most importantly, seems to have no regard for what he's putting our children through.
His latest effort involves refusing to attend S13's first day of senior school tomorrow - at a special event for which all boys are invited, with their parents, to meet their Head of House, their Mentor, and other senior boys in their House.
When I texted H to tell him that this event was happening and that parents were expected to attend, he simply texted back - "Are you going or me?"
In other words, he will not now go to S13's school functions if I am going to be there. What a scumbag. I am so angry and upset for S13 on this important day. And I'm sick and tired of this sort of behaviour that only punishes the children.
I'm really starting to wonder why I want to have this person in my life at all. He's the father of my kids, but shows them so little care that not having him around might be a less damaging option for them.
I feel as if I've moved on but he's stuck in the past. Again tonight he brought up the old "I had an affair and lost all our money " line when reiterating that there was no chance that he'd ever come back.
So be it buddy; I think I'm giving up.
My father who went though he own crisis while we were kids thinks that with my H and sounds like with yours as well, the heart of the problem is that they feel unworthy.
The feeling of unworthiness is related to the affair and losing money but there is probably something deeper from a childhood trauma.
Getting to the root of this is gonna take some serious therapy.
Regarding giving up, I feel like this all the time, but really what would change if I did give up, I wouldnt freak out, I wouldnt stop GALing so its really just a mind set. Why not walk to the light
Humbled to read 25's post to Snowman yesterday.
I am judgmental too often and still very angry with my H. Still critical and controlling.
And whatever I resist PERSISTS.
Maybe I'll learn eventually....
BM, I think you are right - feelings of unworthiness seem to preoccupy our Hs.
Accuray has posted insightfully on this point too. Just not sure there's much we can do beyond applauding the positives and then, because they feel so unworthy, they're unlikely to believe us or value our assessments.
How good would it be to see some evidence that our changes are resulting in something good for our spouses as well as for us????
Just tired and rambling.
I haven’t posted much lately since I got some 2x4s suggesting that I needed to DB more authentically: stop pursuing and let my H go.
I have been reading here every day and taking in advice and thinking deeply.
I realize that beyond just accepting that my H has gone – and leaving him the space to experience life without his family - what I need to do is truly own my part in the demise of our marriage.
In my interactions with him to date, I’ve been alternately clinging and angry. Trying to woo him back or exploding with pain about what he is doing to us.
I’ve also been focusing on what’s wrong with him to try and explain how we got here. In my talks with him, I’ve pretty much made it all about HIM.
I’ve spent a lot of time in the last couple of weeks looking inside myself and considering things from his perspective. I’ve also thought about what real change on my part would look like.
I’ve written some of this stuff down – probably in the vain hope that some of Crimson’s success might work in my sitch too.
Don’t know if I could bring myself to give it to my H though. On the one hand, it seems like a cliché (to hand someone a letter, especially when one sees them frequently). On the other, it seems a bit pathetic on my part to think that just because a letter worked for someone else, that something similar might work in my sitch.
I’m probably just grasping at straws…. But I do feel as if I’ve finally had a bit of insight into my (considerable) part in how we got here.
I’d like to be able to let H know where I am in all of this, but that’s probably just more of the old me: “OK, solved this problem, all fixed. Move along; get over it”.
Maybe I should just have patience, take the slow route, and let my actions speak for me. If H notices then so be it.
Appreciate any advice.
I'm so jumbled up about my motivation in all of this.
Am I wanting to tell him about my insights because I'm ashamed of how I've behaved and want to apologise?
Yes, I can tell myself this and feel it is the truth.
Or is it still a strategy to win him back? Am I looking back to see how everything I do is perceived by him and then shifting accordingly?
Try this, try that. It worked for Crimson, so give it a shot.
If I am truly focused on making myself a better person, and if I've truly let him go, why should I worry about wanting to let H know what I've come to realise about my own inadequacies?
Dear me, and thought I was getting somewhere!
NLW,
lc4 here...recently changed my handle after directing a friend in marital crisis to DB.
Have you already apologized for the problems you brought to the marital table? (I'm thinking you have, plenty of times). If so, don't do it again. LET IT GO, decide what changes you want to implement in your life and get to making those changes happen! This goes back to what I've been encouraging you to do all along. Make your list of personal goals...things that you want to accomplish to make a better NLW. THIS ISN'T ABOUT WINNING HIM BACK; IT'S ABOUT YOU BECOMING YOUR BEST YOU!
Take your husband out of the picture, and be motivated by the fact that you and your kids deserve you to be the most awesome person you can be. You don't need to tell him you are doing that; actions speak louder than words. He will notice! If he's too stupid (pardon my bluntness) to take action and come back to you, then it's his loss.
You have been doing a fantastic job of getting by with him out of the picture. Think to a year ago...you were dependent on him to drive you to and from work, to shuttle the kids back and forth, to cook dinner, to take care of the house and garden needs, correct? And now, you are doing those things on your own! Give yourself credit for that!
In the words of Christopher Robin to Pooh, "Promise me you'll always remember: You're braver than you believe, and stronger than you seem, and smarter than you think."
Dust yourself off, and get back to the business of DB'ing! You can do this!
love & hugs, ncl
Have you already apologized for the problems you brought to the marital table? (I'm thinking you have, plenty of times). If so, don't do it again. LET IT GO, decide what changes you want to implement in your life and get to making those changes happen! This goes back to what I've been encouraging you to do all along. Make your list of personal goals...things that you want to accomplish to make a better NLW. THIS ISN'T ABOUT WINNING HIM BACK; IT'S ABOUT YOU BECOMING YOUR BEST YOU!
Take your husband out of the picture, and be motivated by the fact that you and your kids deserve you to be the most awesome person you can be. You don't need to tell him you are doing that; actions speak louder than words. He will notice! If he's too stupid (pardon my bluntness) to take action and come back to you, then it's his loss.
Yes.
Okay, geddit, thanks....
ncl, Busto, thanks for putting up with my dimness in all of this and for continuing to look in on me.
You'd think I'd have gotten the message by now!
NLW
All your soul-searching and writing and really looking at your motivations is DBing. You've gotten some really good advice here, things I think we all need to hear.
I’d like to be able to let H know where I am in all of this, but that’s probably just more of the old me: “OK, solved this problem, all fixed. Move along; get over it”.
Maybe I should just have patience, take the slow route, and let my actions speak for me. If H notices then so be it.
We have the answers to what we're looking for...
Thanks labug, well said.
You've made me feel much better.
Long post: Reflects a long R talk with H.
It was based on the need to do something about our car - the lease is up in a couple weeks and H is saying that I have to decide what I want to do with it.
The car is currently registered to his business and he is driving our other car which is owned outright by us.
He says if I want to keep driving the car that is leased, I have to take over the lease.
I have said that I need to know what my overall financial situation is before I can make such a decision. When I indicated this to him last week, he became enraged and said he could not give me any details and would go to see a lawyer.
I have since found out that if I don't re-lease the car, he will be liable for the $50,000 residual payment on it.
Today he announced that his lawyer is proposing a 60-40 split of all our assets and debts, based on what he has told her of our situation.
I have not seen anything in writing, but he said he had also gotten a list of lawyers (from her) for me to choose from so that I can have representation too.
I asked what this meant - was he filing for divorce?, and he hesitated for a long time before saying "No, but if that's what you want...".
To which I replied that I didn't want that.
And basically I then set out my understanding of my own role in the demise of our M. Tried to follow the sort of advice that 25 has recently posted on other threads.
He kept bringing things back to his own immaturity and 'moral and ethical' failures and said sometimes he thought it was my fault, but most often he thought it was his.
I listened and validated his POV most often, occasionally indicating that I didn't remember things exactly the same way as him.
We pretty much went round in circles with me indicating that it had taken me a long time to realise that I needed to work on myself and that I was now doing that.
He would then tell me not to be so hard on myself and that it was his fault.
At one point H said "Wait till you see what the lawyer has to say - you'll be shocked".
When I asked what he meant, he said "It'll shock you how little there is left- I've basically shat everything away."
He then said he wanted to take care of the kids for the next 5 years while they are still at school and that "nothing will change for you during this time".
Not sure how this fits with the idea of a 60-40 split of assets but anyway...
He kept saying how sorry he was and he cried a little.
Whenever I turned the conversation towards my own part in our troubles, he would disagree and said "You see this is the problem. We just can't communicate. You say something and I say the opposite. We are just separate people."
He said he would not attend any more school functions with me - aside from individual interviews with our kids' teachers. He said doing otherwise would involve a pretence that he wasn't prepared to participate in. He said we need to tell the schools that we are separated.
I'm not sure what to make of all of this.
It was an hour of talk about the R. Probably should have avoided altogether, but hearing that he had been to a lawyer made me want to know what he had planned - and then him asking me if i wanted to divorce... led me to say that i did not, and why.
My gut really tells me he doesn't really want to be doing this.
I know.. I WOULD say that.
He just seems to be so sad and sorry and believes that he has done things that are unforgivable and there is nothing that can be done to go back now.
I'm not really trying to analyse everything that he's said, but it seemed like a major conversation to record.
Need to wait patiently for him to do his own work on this, I suppose.
Things will be what they will be. I will get on with my life regardless... I am getting much better at this lately, and really feel sometimes that I will be better off without him (and not in a vindictive, angry way).
However, I'm not looking forward to the lawyer's proposal, as I'm sure I won't see things the same way. And neither will my lawyer, I'd imagine. And then another new level of hell opens up.
Why do you think he wants to be the "heavy" in this?
Sorry for the tough conversation NLW
1. I think you should call a DB coach and figure out a game plan.
2. I have a thought about a strategy for dealing with this, it would not be easy and I am not sure its right but here is my idea:
You H is clearly having a crisis. It seems like he not going to turn around until he hits rock rock bottom. Since he is going so fast his bottom may not be far away.
I think you should move faster then you H for him to really feel these consequences. He knows that its not what you want you have told him, now I think you should meet with a lawyer and set up a joint meeting at the school. I think you should be ready with a list of questions for the advisor or whom ever your dealing with about what signs you should look for in your kids to see if they are in distress about the divorce, are there any common bad behaviors we should that we should be aware of, a friend told you their is a link between eating disorders and divorce are they famialar with that link. These questions are all meant to scare your H.
You will have to be a good actress because you dont want him to think you are trying to make him feel guilty you are just want to know how to do what is right.
I would interview lawyers and be honest with the lawyers that your goal is for reconciliation. But you want to make the realities about his decision as real as possible quickly. I would send him a formal custody agreement immediately. Something fair but that eliminates all unplanned visits
Matter of factly - Refer to yourself as a single mom often without over doing it.
Regarding the car, I would say I would really like to discontinue the lease but I am still thinking about it, are there any other finacial considerations I should be aware of before I decide.
Anyway thats my crazy game plan I really think you should call DB and see what they think.
BklynMom gave you excellent advice. I agree that if you can swing it financially, investing in some sessions with a DB coach would be beneficial. And yes...talk to the school counselor (Does your husband want to be at this meeting? Tell him you're scheduling it, and if he'd like to come, fine. If he doesn't...oh well...you put the opportunity out there and he didn't take it). And yes, yes, yes...please go talk to a lawyer. Your husband says nothing will change for you in the near future...well, get that in writing and court-ordered!
My lawyer knew that I didn't want a divorce, but by the time I finally officially hired him (after meeting a few times), I had accepted the fact that we were getting divorced and it was time to move on as I had to. My attorney even asked me if by chance my husband wanted to reconcile, would I; at the time I honestly told him I just didn't think that was what I wanted anymore. And you know how things turned out on that front...goes to show "it isn't over 'til it's over."
One thing...I don't think you have to refer to yourself as a single mom to get that point across. Remember, actions speak louder than words. Show that you are a strong, capable woman and can handle things on your own. He'll see it.
NLW, you know what you need to do, now do it. Let him go. He may come back, he may not. You may want him if he does, you may not. For now, plan your future as if he won't be in it.
But by all means...get thee to a lawyer...stat.
love and hugs...
NLW, I think you're getting excellent advice from BklynMom and ncl.
Whenever I turned the conversation towards my own part in our troubles, he would disagree and said "You see this is the problem. We just can't communicate. You say something and I say the opposite. We are just separate people."
This kind of jumped out at me. This sounds like the good 'ol self convincing. IOW he's telling himself that constantly to keep himself on track.
I agree with the others, the DB coach would be well worth it.
Talk to several Ls until you find one you're comfortable with. Most of them offer a free initial consultation.
labug,
As to why he wants to be 'the heavy', my H started pressuring me about the car because he is worried about money - he can't pay for it any more and needs me to.
When I said I needed to know about my financial situation before I could make a decision, he was put in a hard place. He cried and said he 'could not bring himself' to separate our finances. It was 'too hard' and there was 'too much history'.
So he decided to get a lawyer to do it for him.
He also seems to want to 'tell the world' that we are 'separated'. Not sure why he is being so strong on this. To me, it's no-one else's business really. We are still amicable, and cooperative in regards to the kids, so it's not as if we would break out fighting if we encountered one another at a school function.
If I was going to mind-read, I'd say its because of dissonance - he needs to keep us apart because things are pretty much fine whenever we are together. It just makes it apparent that things are OK between us - even fun and happy a lot of the time. For other people to see this would be make the incongruity too much to bear.
I totally agree its no owns business and you dont need to tell anyone. However if he wants you tell people we need to decide what to do based on what will bring him closer not push him further away?? I dont know the answer but that is the lens we should look at it through.
BM, Thanks for this - We think alike!
I am already into moving fast towards making him see the financial consequences of this next phase that he's moved to. I have drafted a letter that formalises the list of financial details and reporting that will be required to untangle all the issues around his multiple businesses and spending of our shared money.
It's enough info about tax issues to make Al Capone break out in a cold sweat.
And I threw in a mention of my lawyer's suggestion that I hire a forensic accountant, too - to go through the details of his businesses with a fine-toothed comb.
I don't want to sound vindictive - I have said that i don't think it's a good idea to get adversarial on this - but I'm just presenting what my lawyer says will be required to assess his lawyer's proposal about a percentage decision of our asset base.
On the issue of telling the schools, I don't think H means that he wants to speak to the counsellors about possible negative effects on the kids. He firmly believes there are none and that counsellors who think otherwise are wrong (His OW masquerades as a child psychologist, amongst other things, and has advised him that kids are 'resilient').
He just seems to want, badly, everyone to know that we are 'separated'.
In part, I think he knows this would humiliate me and, so, feels compelled to make it part of 'settling our account'.
Interestingly, too, he's been keen on labelling me a 'single mother' lately.
I would love to call DB for counselling but my money (what's left of it) is going towards replacing the car and paying a lawyer at this stage.
Thanks so much for your great suggestions. You've really helped me through this.
NLW
ncl,
Thanks for looking in on me -as usual, I'm getting great advice and support from you.
I am, slowly, getting to the point of planning my future without my H in it. And wondering if I even want to reconcile with him.
It's taken me a long time, but I am moving on, little by little.
I'm no longer terrified to make him angry/upset by setting out just what will be required for a legally-binding separation of our finances, and going hard to make sure that he does it all 'by the book' rather than getting by on the basis of what he says is fair and reasonable.
I do know what I need to do, and I'm doing it. And I'm interested to see how H will react; not scared.
Has to be progress!
love and hugs back at you,
NLW
Good for you, NLW. You can do this.
Thanks Busto,
It means a lot to hear words of encouragement from you.
Cheers,
NLW
I know H doesnt want to speak to counsellors but can you somehow make that happen in order to discuss these side effects without seeming like you are manipulating the sitch.
Google "broken home daily mail" there are some articles I would love to forward to our H about the negative consequences of D. I wish I could do that.
Our "MC" told my H kids are resilient, what a bunch of quacks.
I think you should tell some select people to show you are listening to your H. Also to show him that he cant hold this over your head. Trust me I do not like telling people. But I think you need to tell a hand full as part of your strategy.
Also when I told mutual friends this summer several of the men decided on their own to try to talk some sense into H, it was unsuccessful. I do think that as my H comes out of his fog he does remember some of the things people have said.
My H thought it was weird that a mutual male friend was "so angry" at him, H thought it was out of character. Makes me laugh
He likes to call you a single mom?? That is odd, why do you think he likes to say that??
BM,
I'll definitely try with the counsellors.
Thanks for the link too - first one that came up was about how one in 5 kids from broken homes lose touch with the WAS FOREVER.
At the rate my H is going, this will be him.
I would definitely like to expose the moral and ethical bankruptcy, let alone quackery, of the marriage and family counsellor/friend and ex-student of mine who became the OW to my H.
But, of course, this wouldn't get me any closer to my goal of being a better person so I'll turn the other cheek....
On the issue of telling people, i've been sticking to what i thought was the DB line of keeping stumm.
Your friends sound like diamonds - so good to hear that they cared enough to try to set him straight.
I think my H likes to remind me I'm a 'single mum' - as well as telling me that I have been 'abandoned' - because for a long time it seemed that we were just a happily married couple where the H just slept elsewhere every night (and not for 'bad' reasons).
That is, we do get on pretty well together most of the times that we see each other (although he has cut this right down now), so he needs to keep reminding me that 'this is actually happening', I suppose.
It is so surreal.
Just wondering if anyone else has a similar experience.
I know I shouldn't be focussing on what my H does or why, but I'm curious...
He moved out 6 months ago now to live in a room rented from his male BF.
But he's still got a heap of clothes at home.
His wardrobe contains about 25 shirts, 30 ties, numerous T shirts, jumpers, caps, and so on. He never goes to get any of them when he's at our house.
In the meantime, he's been buying himself new shirts and caps (some almost identical to what he already has), jackets, and Ts.
What gives?? Is this standard script for an MLCer?
All of my H clothes are still here. Everytime he comes over he is wearing new clothes. He has a new favorite baseball hat that should be worn by a 14 yr old.
H took none of his furniture or decorations (the few he has) and only some of his man stuff like tools and workout equipment.
There have been several days that he knows we are out of the house and he could come over and get his stuff but he doesnt.
I used to think it was a good sign now I dont know.
Oh BM,
This is just the same as my sitch!
My H has been here twice in the last two weeks - on his own while I have been at work and the kids at school, so he could have taken whatever he wanted - but nothing is touched.
And yes, the hoodies and T shirts (all emblazoned with logos) that my H has bought for himself recently would be great for a 14yo boy, but look decidedly odd (to my mind, at least) on a 42yo businessman.
I'm thinking - since I wrote the above - that my H doesn't want his clothes because mostly, they were bought by me. He's leaving them behind just like he left me.
It is a bit hard not to interpret it as some sign of hope, though. When I went to his wardrobe to check whether he'd taken anything, it all looked exactly as though he was still living here.....
Would have pushed me to tears a few months back to see all his clothes hanging there just as if he was about to walk back into the bedroom and put something on.
Now, it just makes me think WTF?
I have read your entire sitch with great interest. I in turn began a determined research mission on the MLC syndrome - to find that your story is exactly classic, even by the most sarcastic of websites, the fit is uncanny!
And the prognosis is the same across every board (medical, psychological, intellectual, philosophical, rational, irrational, psychic, side-kick, infidelity, jealousy, happy, sad, gay, not gay - dim, dark, gray, midnight, treatable, not treatable, BP, BPD, NPD, LSD, MLC, LBS, WAS, WAH, WAW, MD, MC, IC, PhD, IOU, IUD, STD, TRO. All you can hope for remission to last (one would have to seriously ask themselves after this question after such a coaster ride as yours).
But you have learned a great deal about yourself and your toleration level over this period. And you are now in a different place with a total re-grouping of your perception of your husband's hyjincts. You are surely better off, but you've been thru he--.
I commend you for your fortitude. It really would not have mattered how you would have handled things any differently or better. You have done an admirable DB job under these tough circumstances, and you are to be admired. Seriously, with what you have been faced, and the pressure you have been under, I am surprised you have not had a nervous breakdown. Furthermore, many people commit crimes for much less than what has been done upon you.
Bravo.
I would be proud and honored if you, or any of your admirers, would have a look at my sorry sitch.. With best regards, Yas
Yasu, Thanks for your kind comments and understanding.
I will look at your sitch as soon as I can.
NLW
Starting to note another change in my H's pattern of behaviour.
In the last few days, he's been contacting us more.
He called out of the blue and offered to collect the kids from school on Friday afternoon.
Then called on Sat morning to say he would take D16 to work and went back to pick her up and bring her home afterwards. Then dropped her off at a party on Sat night.
Sunday, H arrived at midday (unannounced) and stayed 3 hours, helping with kids' homework, playing with dog.
(Still will not stay for dinner and will not eat and drink anything if I ask him if he wants to - only does so if I prepare stuff and put it in front of him without saying anything.)
Monday, H offered to drive S13 to school and 'dog sit' for me as I had to go to work for 3 hours. Curiously, he called at 5.30pm to apologise, saying he was too busy with work to come for dinner - as if he thought he'd made some sort of arrangement to do so.... Weird!
Then, offered to take the kids to school today.
At midday, I received another text saying that he wants to take D16 out driving tonight (she is learning to drive) and will collect S13 from school on the way home.
All of a sudden, he is all over us, after weeks of almost no contact.
Any ideas about how I should handle this - I've just managed to get myself to the point where I'm OK planning stuff without thinking of him.
Is it best to try to reduce the amount of unrestrained contact he has right now (I keep telling myself to let him go) or is this desire for daily contact some evidence of the beginning of a thaw that I should foster in some way?
He still seems very 'down' on himself, and my gut feel is that he doesn't really want to leave us at all, but feels too much like a failure to face what he's done to the family.
Yesterday when I thanked him for dog sitting for me, I commented that the dog had slept all afternoon (a real plus when dealing with a new puppy).
I asked H what he'd done to tire him out and he responded thus: "I'm just an exhausting person to be around".
Keen to hear what people think, cause in the past I've been too pursuing and needy.
Just don't want to go overboard in the other direction as I feel H is really fragile and starting to have second thoughts about what he's doing.
BUT, of course, this is just more of my wishful thinking.
Need to hear some other perspectives.
Wow. Maybe tread carefully?
How do you feel having him around more. If you are ok with it then I would just let it go. Still make your plans without him but if he chooses to be with you guys and you don't mind, then I think it would be a win-win situation. If you say anything, he may feel as though he shouldn't come around as often.
It sounds positive. But I wouldn't go celebrating quite yet. Enjoy that time. It sounds really nice. Envious.
(BF) you always steal the words from my head
I think treading lightly is the best approach. Keep expectations low- non-existant, in fact. Enjoy the time he chooses to spend with the family, but never point it out to him or ask why he's made these changes.
Crimson uses a squirrel analogy for these types of interactions: Imagine trying to feed a squirrel (the WAS). Stand perfectly still, and they start to come closer. But any sudden movement (talking about it or pursuing on your part) and the squirrel runs away.
nhmom has had some experience with her H coming close and hanging out- then one day he reverts back to running away. She might have some suggestions about the best way to handle this.
Honestly, I would be thrilled if my H took an interest in coming around me and being involved as a family.... I would have a hard time not getting too attached have hopes for things to change quickly.
H has planned to come over and cook dinner for us tonight.
Hasn't done this in a while.
But in the meantime, D16 has started acting out badly.
The other day she heard me praising H for his new 'football-trained' legs (I've always loved his legs and made a lot of their attractiveness, so thought I would comment).
D16 reacted with disgust ("Yuk") and yelled at us to 'Stop it' (i.e. talking about his great legs).
Last night she refused to stop face-booking on her computer during the night when she should have been sleeping, and she refused to go to school today, telling me "You can't tell me what to do".
And lately, whenever I ask for her help with any chores around the house, she responds with "You're the mother, You do it."
Her behaviour is likely to sabotage any small steps toward us that H is demonstrating. Bad timing... but understandable.
Sometimes I feel like I'm constantly trying to hide everything from everybody; papering over monstrous cracks.
And just when I get one set of cracks covered, another strip of paper peels off from somewhere else.
hang tough!
i remember being a horrible teenager (i can't believe the stuff that use to come out of my mouth.. embarassed now!) even w/ out all the drama you're having to deal with!
i think the only thing you can do is draw boundaries and love unconditionally.. sort of like the WAS!
Ha, of course, H rang at 4.30pm this afternoon to say he couldn't make it over for dinner after all. But he will be here tomorrow night.....
The kids were upset and S13 then went on his 'go slow' regime. Was the last kid out of school for pick up tonight. Took an hour to get to bed after he was asked and then stayed awake until 11pm. It'll be such fun tomorrow morning when I try to get him up for school at 6.30am.
So, 2 teenagers acting out now.
I so don't need this. But I so understand how they feel.
Hey NLW - just curious what does NLW stand for?
Hi NLW, just getting caught up on your sitch...
Have you given anymore consideration to letting your friends know? I honestly don't know if that is anti-DB or not, but for me it was one of the best things I did for myself. At first it did kind of feel like it almost escalated things with H, but I don't think I would have made it this far without the unbelievable support I got as a result.
It has kept me sane, and I largely credit this support group for getting me to the good mental place I am now.
I know exactly how you feel about your H's sudden change in behavior, I am dealing with the same issue right now with mine. I have totally kept my distance and it seems to keep things on an even keel.
My goal, however, in maintaining that distance is to keep myself off the roller coaster. Its taken me entirely too long to reach this place to let myself get sucked back into it.
Hang in there!! ((()))
Big slap in the face today.
Those of you who've followed my sitch may recall that my h has always refused to discuss finances with me.
Lately, he's been pressuring me to buy out the lease on our car - as he insists I, alone, have to pay for it. We have 2 cars and, quite serendipitously, he has taken the one that is paid for, while I seem to be responsible for the one on which $50K is owing....
My response has been to say: "Let me know my financial situation - liabilities and debts - and I can make a decision on whether I can afford it or whether I need to get a cheaper car".
But he steadfastly refuses to give me ANY financial information about our personal and business situation. He says that he "Just can't talk to me about it".
Anyway, when he told me, yet again, today that I needed to make a decision about the car, I said, again, that I needed to see some financial info.
He then handed me a lawyer's letter proposing that he takes 40% of my superannuation, and pays no more of our house mortgage, although he maintains a half share in the property.
The letter stated that I didn't need assistance to pay the mortgage because the house could be rented out at an amount that would cover the monthly mortgage payments.
So, basically, if I have trouble re-paying the mortgage that I took out to save his failing business, I can just live on the street, with our 2 kids, and rent the place to someone else!!!!!
Basically, he is only proposing to pay half of the kids school fees and to slug me for any other assets I have.
The back story is that I am older than H and had a house, a car, a job, and a healthy bank balance when we met. He had nothing.
I now have a big mortgage, big credit-card debt, no car in my name, and no savings. And H now wants to take my superannuation when I am about 5-7 yrs away from retirement.
To say I was devastated would be an understatement.
And this from the man that I would have trusted my life to.
I understand that this is just a lawyer's letter but the way he presented it - as "I am willing to be fair and only take 40% not the 50% I'm entitled to" - makes me sick to my stomach.
I think he is definitely delusional, someone quite seriously 'other' than the man I once knew.
His mother is in despair and my parents would happily tear him to shreds.
I am just numb.
So sorry, NLW. That must have really stung. What's going on in your mind right now?
OUCH! Sorry for his unreasonable, thoughtless and betraying request, NLW. So selfish.
I think it's really urgent that you see a lawyer now because the lawyer can issue demand letters or similar for WAS to provide you with the financial information you need to make informed decisions in the interest of yourself and your family.
If you can't afford one, do you have family law pro bono centers nearby or something like Legal Aid societies?
This is when you need to focus on the acting. Tell him how at first glance you like his proposal then get your lawyer to tell him that his crackpot proposal is not gonna fly. Let your lawyer be the bad guy.
It is very confusing to take responsibility for our bad behavior but also recognize that this has nothing to do with whether you were a good W or not. Your H is suffering from a disease right now similar to alcoholism but just as real. He needs help and he needs treatment. Just as an alcoholic. Unfortunately they will only get treatment when they hit the bottom. This is not the man you married this is his disease.
I know its so devastating that they are taking down their whole family with them. He has a cancer and it takes many rounds of chemo to kill it.
We love you!!
seems the topic of the week is S and finances!
(((( ))))
Hey labug,
I'm really confused. This 'grab' by my H for a slice of my superannuation - after he said he would never do that - has really made me think about his motivation in being with me.
From one perspective, he has played me and my parents for our money, and when it's run out, so has he.
I wonder whether I have just been a dupe in this relationship the whole time. The pathetic older woman conned by a two-faced chancer.
I want to think he can't help what he's doing now, but after that proposal - which he had to agree to even if it was prompted by a lawyer on the basis of limited, interested, information - I feel like walking away from him for good.
That he would agree to the idea that I can rent out the house in order to pay the mortgage on my own without any input from him - basically tossing us out into the street - I find incomprehensible.
I don't want THIS man back in my life at all.
Hi Busto,
Thanks for your support.
A letter from my legal rep is being drafted now. It focuses on setting out the amount of detail that will be required - in terms of financial records, valuations, dates, evidence, etc, etc - for any decision to be made on a percentage distribution.
It will make him spew. And scare his pants off.
I've repeatedly said that I don't want to get adversarial about this, but I think it's time that he had a dose of 'reality' concerning what separating our lives is really going to involve.
I presume that it will make things very much worse between us in the short term.
NLW, it sounds like you are clear in your mind about what you need to protect you. Good!
I don't see you as being adversarial, I see you as drawing boundaries to protect yourself.
Hi BM,
So good to hear your perspective. Love the way you 'tell it like it is'!
I did tell him that I appreciated the fact that he'd put in the time and effort to progress our discussion about finances by going to the lawyer.
He looked uncomfortable and deflected, saying "No need to thank me; stop it".
And yes, my lawyer will be the bad guy in this. It will all be his suggestion, rather than mine.
Although my H has already seen this coming.
When I asked him not to go down the path of involving lawyers because I didn't want things to get adversarial, he said that lawyers are only hired hands. They only do what their clients ask them to do, so things don't have to be adversarial.
So he's going to interpret whatever my lawyer says and does as a direct reflection of my instructions.
Your point about my H needing help is well taken.
After the shock of this letter, I have been plagued by thoughts that he has just been conning me for money since the start of our relationship - fuelled by my insecurities about being older than him, I suppose.
I'm still not really at the point of being convinced that he is, simply, a con man.
He does seem completely out of touch with reality, confused and lost.
Thanks so much for checking in on me and for your great support.
NLW
2TP,
NLW stands for 'no longer wretched'.
When I started posting, I selected the name of 'wretched', but wiser heads advised me to change to something more positive.
I'm not feeling very positive just at the moment, but I can see the value in looking forward to a better time when I will really be NLW.
NLW,
I can somewhat relate to your situation. My husband is an entrepreneur, I had a corporate job with insurance, benefits, stock options, etc. I put him on my insurance, he enjoyed the benefits of my stable income.
I lost my job 2 years ago and things have been very rocky since then. I too am not ready to paint him with the con man brush mainly because I know in his past marriage and relationships, he was the breadwinner (business was much better back then) and he took alot of pride in taking care of his woman. He didn't have the resources to do that with me and I actually think that was a part of our issue. He would never say it, but I think that's true.
Hang in there.
Thank you for responding. I was wondering if you had seen my post.
Since NLW are just 3 letters stringed together, it seems that you can change then whenever you want. So how about something empowering like:
No Longer Wounded
Pick yourself up. Dust yourself off. Make life what you want it to be!
Thanks, 2tp.
Regardless of what I call myself, I'm still not really 'No longer'.
I feel wounded/wretched, especially in the last few days.
I've been struggling to deal with a new bout of coldness and lack of cooperation from my H around kid stuff.
Just now he brought S13 back from school, but didn't even speak to me when he brought him to the door. Just turned away as I opened the door, walked away and got back into his car - he hadn't even turned the engine off - and drove.
This is a new form of behaviour for him. And there seems to be nothing that has precipitated it. So rude, so hurtful. So out-of-the-blue.
I was on the verge of texting him to ask what gives - why he won't even speak to me now... What have I done????
But that was the old me. This time I didn't. I'm trying to remember to let it roll off me; to let him work out his sh..t himself. And to get on with things. But it makes me so sad to be treated like this.
My mother said yesterday that it sounds like he is trying to 'break' me.
Seems a pretty apt description. I do feel broken by all this, but I'll never show him.
Thank goodness I can jump on here and look for sympathy!
And I'm still holding on to a vague hope that if he has to behave like this to me for no apparent reason - it might mean that he is actually in extreme pain and is suffering as much as I am.
Not that I'm saying that I hope he is suffering - just that I hope this might indicate that there is still a huge emotional connection there for him if he can't even speak to me when meets me at the door.
Compounding my sadness is the fact that there's a big 'pre-prom' party for girls, their dates and their parents scheduled for this Sat night - to which H and I are invited. It's a HUGE event for D16, and I am sick with worry that H will refuse to go.
What a time to decide that he can't even speak to me any more...
Big hugs, sweet friend.
I found in my sitch that when my H had absolutely no sane reason to be doing what he was doing (walking away from his wife and life into the arms of a nutso ow), he decided to be angry with me. I guess it helped him detach easier, I don't know. I do know that for me, detachment was all that saved me during those times. It doesn't come easy, I know. Just remind yourself on a continuous basis that your H isn't the man right now who you fell in love with, married, brought children into the world with and built your life with. Therefore, you just cannot take to heart the mean things he does and says. Ignore, ignore, ignore.
Big kudos to you for not texting him when he acted ugly dropping your son off. Remember in the past I've told you that you often have to treat the MLC'er/WAS as a toddler or a tween who is throwing a fit...just walk away and eventually they tire of throwing the fit for just an audience of one (them).
I know it will seem terrible if your H chooses not to go to the party, but I promise you it will not be the end of the world. There are so many events I had to attend without my H, and I always made sure I looked smokin' hot. It wasn't for him (heck, he wouldn't even be there!), but it was for ME...and trust me, word always got to him how great I looked.
I cannot tell you this enough...plan your future for YOU and YOUR KIDS, not him. If he figures into the equation later (because of YOUR choice), fine and good. If not, fine and good.
Take care...you can do this! nlc
You have done nothing. My H was giving me major attitude the other day and I was like what the heck did I do? Talked to a DB coach 2 days a ago nd she said I wasnt being nice enough to him. That really bugged me. I mean my H just sent me a preliminary draft of a separation agreement the fact that I dont just kick him in the #$%2 is nice enough of me.
So today I killed him with kindness. Actually went to see a movie he recommended and he seemed to like that I enjoyed it. He gave less attitude to me the more I acted like a Southern Belle and a happy homemaker. I commented on his shoulders getting wider "Your shoulder have gotten so wide, be careful that you dont get too big" He loved that.
For me going dark or dim or even being aloft makes my H annoyed at me, I have to treat him like he is the best man on the planet and then he relaxes. It kind of insane.
Hi ncl,
Thank you so much for sticking with me - it means so much.
Your responses are wonderful for reminding me of what I need to keep doing - in this case : ignore, ignore, ignore.
And I've been prompted by what you said to go back and re-read all of our interactions on my previous threads, - I need to keep reminding myself of how to do this!
Thanks for letting me know how you handled things in your sitch. It really helps a great deal to know that others have survived through exactly the same low points.
As always, your support and encouragement spurs me on.
I can do this.
Best,
NLW
BM,
Thanks for looking in: We seem to be just about exactly in the same place with our H's.
I think my H also retreats and gets cold when I don't show sufficient interest in him.
I get torn between the idea of going dim/dark/letting him go, and the need to be nice to him to make him see what he's missing.
In his case, too, just being 'nice' isn't enough. He needs to be slathered with positives. But then, too, he is fundamentally suspicious of my motives, I think.
So he wants/needs positive affirmations, but doubts that I'm sincere/he's worthy... and so the pursuit/distancing dance continues.
But if I go dark, he mirrors and gets nastier.
I find it very interesting that your DB coach has said "be nicer to him".
I'll give this a try and see if it works, while remembering to remain as detached as I can.
Even though, you're right, it is insane.
Thank you again,
NLW
NLW & BM - I think the same is going on with my H. I didn't think about it that way until reading this thread. As long as I am treating him like Prince Charming, it's all gravy.
I will be signing up for at least one DB coach session this week. I REALLY hope he/she does not say be nicer. If I get any sweeter/nicer, I'm going to turn into Hershey's kiss. LOL
Have you looked at the web site No More Mr. Nice Guy. I am obsessed with it right now, describes my H to a tee.
The number one rule for DB is: Do what works. My H does not at all respond to dark/dim only to continuous reassurances that he is da man. Exactly slathered in positives. Even though he is suspicious he likes it.
Wow, Bklyn, there is a lot of info there, esp the boards. Thanks.
Okay, an update on the prom...
H did attend the 'before' party, and even drove our family car with me and D16 in it to pick up her date.
He stood with me most of the evening (only an hour and a half) and conversed civilly. Really, no-one could have told there was anything wrong between us.
I think he went, in the end, because I didn't ask him. I got D16 to tell him about it and do all the requesting.
He ended up having to call me on the day of the prom to ask what time he was supposed to be there.
A couple of glitches along the way - when he arrived at our house ready to pick us up, he was wearing a suit.
It was 41degrees Centigrade, and he asked me if he should wear his jacket.
I said 'No' as I thought most parents would be wearing casuals pretty much anyway.
He then turned on me and demanded to know why I'd told him to wear a suit.
I just said quietly that I hadn't spoken to him about the event much at all, and in any case, if I had, I wouldn't have told him to wear a suit, but he was adamant that I'd done so.
Truth be told, I was always the one who would have advised him what to wear to an occasion like this in our previous life.
The other issue that caused a little friction was his driving.
He has taken to driving extremely recklessly - I think because in the latter stages of our relationship, I did comment a bit on his driving and he said he hated it.
Well, today, when he was back behind the wheel of our powerful family car, he was throwing it around the road like a 16-year-old on a dodgem car ride.
I 'eeked' at one stage, but tried to cover it up by saying I'd just caught my foot on a package that I had stored in the footwell.
So, a good day I suppose, yet I feel so empty and sad about the event.
There's really not much joy to be had in anything at this stage. Either he doesn't go to things, and the kids and I are sad about it. Or he does go, and it all seems weird and unnatural.
I suppose that's exactly how he feels about things, too.
Just a quick question that I'd really like some help with.
In relation to my previous post - is it a good idea for me to thank my H (and probably in an 'applaud LOUDLY for the positives' way) for attending the parents' party with me for the prom?
Or should I just go down the path of not making too much of a big deal of it in case he feels that I'm getting 'false hope' again?
He is VERY sensitive to the notion that I just don't get that he is done.
So, not sure how to reinforce him on this, but I feel strongly that I need to 'do the right thing' here in order to show him that I appreciate his actions, and work towards making him feel safe to do more of the same in the future.
And please remember, H is a guy who just loves being told how great he is.
But then, how does this fit with 'dropping the rope'?
So confused....
This is tricky. I think you definitely need to complement him for going. Can you mention some mundane custody issue and then say oh and D is so happy you did the prom thing. It was so great of you....
I think the key is to admit to the D before you pat him on his back.
I've been walking that fine line with my H too. He is adamant that I "get" that he's done. So I always questions myself when it comes to things like compliments or other positive interactions.
I think you SHOULD thank him (loudly!) But Bklyn makes a good point, since he's concerned that you are buying into the D, casually mention a small detail, which lets's him know that it's still on your mind. But then it's safer to applaud him for his efforts with the prom.
(Bklyn usually knows the best things to do in these situations, I just sound like a parrot) But, I wanted to let you know that I appreciate your advice on my posts and I do see similarities with our sitchs.... i don't know if I can drop my rope yet- right now it's wrapped around my waist for extra leverage!
I suggest you STFU.
Have you ever been praised by someone who you think shouldn't be praising you or for something you think you shouldn't be praised for? How would you feel if your neighbor felt compelled to let you know that she really approved of you cooking a healthy meal for your family?
H is not seeking your praise or approval. Going to the prom thing was about him and his child. It was not about you. It is not about you. Don't intrude. Stay out of it.
interesting point, I hadn't thought about it like that (the neighbor analogy).
But if he has complained that she never appreciated him... would't this be an opportunity for a 180?
Thanks everyone,
This helped me a great deal.
What I ended up doing was to STFU about H's attendance at the before party - he didn't do it for me, I take old-timer's point!
But, I did thank him for picking D16 up from the after party at 2.30am (kids these days - where did all this partying come from at this age???).
I did the pre-after party pick-up at 11pm, but H did the hard yards in the early morning, so earned some praise from me, I figure.
In the meantime, my sitch has blown up, big time.
H contacted me today to say he was bringing over a lease document for me to sign regarding one of our cars.
He has been at me for weeks, insisting that I needed to take over the payments on the car that we lease in his business name, and that I now use to drive the kids to school.
I have continually said that I couldn't make a commitment to an expensive car lease without knowing about out shared finances (everything we have, and have ever made, has gone into the one pot) - basically in our complicated situation, what I need to know is who is responsible from now on for paying what?
H has, just as continually, refused to discuss any financial issues with me, but did recently hand me a lawyer's letter indicating that he was going to be asking for a 40% share of the house and 40% of my superannuation (the only asset I have left after mortgaging my house to prop up his failing business around 12 months ago).
Today he announced that he would re-lease the car in his business name, but that I would have to sign the lease as 'guarantor' for his payments - on a lease that runs for the next 5 years.
I was gobsmacked - he's trying to divorce me and yet wants to name me as guarantor for a car payment contract that he is taking out that runs for the next 5 years????
And this in the context of him having defaulted on every loan, credit-card payment, utility bill, and family loan that he has taken out in the last 4 years due to cash flow problems with his ailing businesses.
But he seemed absolutely convinced that there was no option but for me to sign it.
I tried to keep calm and say that in the absence of any information about my financial situation going forward there was no way I could commit to this new obligation, but he became enraged.
He ended up saying he no longer cared what happened and that the car could be repossessed.
He then emptied all of his stuff from our other car (a very much older and practically clapped-out car that we own outright) that he had driven up in, and called a cab.
Within a half hour he'd sent me an email asking whether I'd be responding to his lawyer's letter asking for an immediate payment to him of my superannuation (an amount of around $300K).
Then came another email listing our 'assets and debts' as 'the car, house, contents, [my] superannuation and credit cards' and asking me to add anything to the list that he'd forgotten.
Is it just me or is he really off his rocker?
All I've asked for is some discussion of what part of our current debts and liabilities he considers I am responsible for paying before I can commit to taking over the lease of a replacement car.
And this is a serious question from me - I'm really starting to doubt my sanity in this.
I don't know if he's off his rocker and I'm not sure it matters. He's made it pretty clear from the get-go how this is going to go down.
What does your lawyer say?
NLW,
I'm so sorry for this recent blowup. Please remember that he nor his lawyer can force you to do anything...this is a matter for a judge to decide if you two cannot agree (with the assistance of your attorney of what is fair and reasonable), and in my opinion the financial situation needs to be addressed immediately. He may not be willing to provide you with financial information, but a court can force him to.
Why do you think he made a big production of emptying the car and calling a cab? Do you think he is trying to frighten and/or bully you? Also, have you answered his emails? If I were in your shoes (and I have been), I would not answer him, as I don't believe you owe him an answer. I would call my lawyer ASAP, inform him/her of what is going on and let them take care of it. Then I would suggest to your husband when he emails/calls/texts/shows up again that when he has financial questions (or demands, in his case), to have his lawyer contact yours.
There are many consequences to ending a marriage, and some extra financial burden is one of them. Some people have to learn the hard way that divorce doesn't make all the problems go away.
I'd like to add that I agree with OT that you didn't owe your husband any thanks for attending an event he should have been happy to be at anyway.
Hang in there...and please, call your lawyer.
Really bad day today.
I was printing something on our home printer when I noticed an extra page emerge.
On it was a list of domain names registered by H for his various businesses, and it included the new business name of OW's business.
Goodness knows how it got there in the print queue for our home computer.
I felt totally gutted because I had not really had any evidence recently that she had re-emerged on the scene following a one-year hiatus.
In fact, H had constantly denied that she was back on his agenda.
Of course, I'd suspected, but tried to stop any thinking about her.
Anyway, would you believe, I stopped to consider for all of 30 secs and then decided 'to hell with it, let's get this over ' and rang him to report what I'd found.
At first he denied. Then he said 'Yeah, Ok you're right, I have started back with her. Then he denied it again and then at another point in the conversation, he said 'No I haven't been but now you've interrogated me, I certainly going to'.
What a head-f...k!
The interaction deteriorated from then on until I was crying and pleading - for him to just be nice or civil to me.
And to top it all off, he then arrived on the doorstep to say he was taking my car away because I had 'effed everything up' by refusing to sign as his guarantor, and now he'd have to find $10K and give the car back to settle the lease. Apparently, the finance company had refused to allow him to take out a lease on his own.
He was livid, shaking with rage and wagging his finger at me. We spent most of the day backwards-ing and forwards-ing in argument and then semi-making up.
At one point I said "ILU' and he floored me when he replied 'ILY too'.
I got so mad that I rang the notifications board of the national psychological society to ask whether a psychologist who advertises that she specialises in relationship counselling and child issues should be behaving like OW did in emailing me with all the lurid details of her liaisons with my H, and in sending my H sexually explicit pics of herself, particularly when she knew that he was taking medication that controls mood swings.
The notifications officer sounded extremely interested in the situation and encouraged me strongly to file a formal notification of misconduct.
I imagine there'd be no going back once I did this, but gee it made me feel good to hear that OW would get some comeuppance if I wanted to press for an inquiry.
Just to hear someone else say that it was indeed professional mis-conduct for her to behave like this made me feel better.
What a terrible jumble. Why can't I just detach???? I thought I was doing pretty well, but this was a real backslide. And just why do I want such a man in my life....
Really, don't I have any dignity left at all?
Answer: NO, that's gone along with just about everything else.
Oh, NLW...I'm so very sorry for your discovery. I know that horrible feeling you had when you saw that d@mn ow's name, confirming your fears that she is back in your husband's life. Big, big hugs to you.
I hope you will stay strong in refusing to sign as a guarantor on anything he asks of you at this time. With everything else you have gone through and are going through, I do NOT want to see this man bring you financial ruin. Please talk to your lawyer immediately and find out what you need to do to protect your ASSets. If in the meantime you have to drive the older car, just remind yourself that life is NOT going to be like this forever and things WILL improve. Do what you have to do to get by for now, and take each day one at a time. You will gain strength over time...I know that.
To answer your question...of course you have your dignity! You are an AMAZING mother to your teenage children and an AMAZING daughter to your aging parents. You also have been an AMAZING wife to your husband and have loved him through some extremely trying moments when other people would have given up and walked away. You are successful in your job. I have no doubt you are a good and faithful friend. You are a beautiful, smart, kind and witty lady. Please do not allow your husband to make you believe otherwise. He is a fool to walk away from you!
I pray you find it easier to detach now that you are aware he is back with ow. That always helped me anyway. When I knew she was in the picture, I was out...no questions asked. Dig deep within and find your strength and grace and continue taking care of yourself and children. Know that you are loved and that you are worthy of love.
And again...I beg you, NLW...please talk to your lawyer and protect yourself financially. If you don't do it for you, do it for your kids.
much love...ncl
HI ncl,
Thanks for looking in on me and for your words of encouragement.
I'm really down at the moment, can't seem to get up no matter what I try, and I'm thinking that things are pretty much done.
I have an L appointment tomorrow and am hoping that I won't have to deal with H's most recent ultimatum about our cars until I get further advice.
I printed out a chronology of events in our marriage for the Lawyer and reading it through made me see just how hopeless things are. No wonder H can't come back. It's just too awful to get over.
I'm almost too embarrassed to give it to the L - wanting to stay with a man who has done these things makes me look like some kind of fool. I keep telling myself that his actions are not those of the man I know, but seeing everything set out on paper in a time-line makes me understand why H thinks it's impossible for us to get over what has happened.
NLW
I am so happy to hear that you are taking steps to protect yourself and seeing an L tomorrow. Good for you, NLW!
You don't deserve the treatment you've received. Try to change your way of thinking and focus re: whether or not your H could get over what has happened. The question should be whether YOU could and, if so, what your H would need to do to win you back.
Value yourself, and the world will value you more. You are definitely worth it. =)
Ok, so things are not going well.
On my lawyer's advice I agreed to guarantee the re-lease of our family car if H would allow me to use it to drive the kids around while he took back the 2nd, less reliable car to use for himself. This arrangement would continue until we'd had a chance to decide on the division of our assets.
Lawyer basically asked me if I was insane when she heard that H wanted me to be guarantor for the lease on 'his' car for the next 5 years. She eventually agreed that, as I was guarantor for the current lease anyway, I was at no more financial risk and it would stave off the inevitable financial disaster that would ensue if H had to find $10K cash to cover the residual on the lease, now, when he will also have to surrender the car.
Anyway, H laughed in my face at this proposal. Said he would not 'pay for a car for me to drive' and would now take both cars away from me, as he would need to sell the 2nd car to help find the money to pay out the lease.
He was absolutely vicious, saying that I would be left with no car at all, and that he would take responsibility for driving the kids to and from school.
No thought about how they might be fed - presumably I can walk to the supermarket 2ks away - or be ferried around to the 6 or 7 separate places they need to get to on weekends, or how I will get to and from work in time to care for the kids, etc.
He then sent me a very formally worded email demanding that I respond to his lawyer's letter that outlined his proposal that I should give him 40% of my superannuation and house.
The man is beyond 'alien' at this stage. It's like he's some sort of evil robot, programmed to 'EXTERMINATE'.
That he could contemplate doing this to the kids - depriving me of a car will impact on them so immediately and massively.
I suppose I could go out and try to get a loan to buy another car, but that will mean that I no longer have the money to cover the house repayments and school fees.
How this has all deteriorated from the sitch of a few months ago, I just don't know.
Then he was saying 'nothing will change for the kids' and coming over every morning to prepare their lunches and drive them to school, as well as returning in the afternoon to make dinner - and enjoying family movie nights, BBQs, days out, etc.
The only thing I can think is that his business really is at the end point now; that things are so bad that it's all going to collapse and, this way, he can tell everyone that 'the divorce' (or more likely his witch of an XW) took every last cent that he had.
If he'd stayed with us and everything had been ruined, there would have been no-one to blame for it all but him and his own incompetence. This way, he avoids the public shame of being responsible, again, for the business failure.
But on the other hand, maybe it's just me, like he says.
Maybe I should guarantee the lease on his car for the next 5 years, go out and buy myself a cheap car, and watch with a smile on my face as H and OW drive around our neighbourhood in our big, luxurious family car.
Thoughts? Feedback?
I'm no longer capable of dealing with this sort of stuff. I truly doubt my own ability to make any sort of appropriate decision.
Gaslighting comes to mind...
And speaking of gas, sometimes the Sylvia Plath option seems understandable.
I know, it's just a car. Think of Africa....
But does everyone's WAS do this sort of thing?
NLW,
I'm sorry for all the pain and stress you are going through right now. Please remember that your husband can send formally-worded, demanding emails until his fingers fall off, but it doesn't mean SQUAT legally. He has no power over you or this situation! He is trying to intimidate you into making choices that you believe are not best for you and your children, so PLEASE remain strong. Again, I'd advise that you do NOT answer his emails nor discuss the financials (if the two of you cannot agree) without your lawyer's involvement. Trust me...my husband REALLY put pressure on me (and in his line of business he knew just what to say to scare me), but I flat out refused to participate in the back and forth arguing. When we couldn't agree on matters or when I didn't know if what he was suggesting was the best choice for me, I went to my lawyer and let him handle it. My lawyer always made sure I was comfortable with the route he thought best for me to go before pursuing it, which I greatly appreciated. This is what the lawyers are paid for, and you have enough on your plate otherwise to worry about this. I would very calmly tell him that you will not discuss matters with him as long as he acts angry and irrational...PERIOD. Then turn the phone off, don't answer his emails and don't be bullied into seeing him.
Now more than ever you need to be strong...for yourself and for your children. Who is to say your husband won't have an awakening and change his behavior, but for now put your focus on the kids and you.
big hugs...ncl
Thanks so much for your advice ncl - I am getting really desperate trying to work out what to do for the best. I'm waiting to hear from my L, but the timeframe is against me.
H is saying that he will not budge and if i don't do what he says in relation to buying myself a new car and guaranteeing his continuing lease on our family car, the kids' will have to stop attending their schools due to cash flow problems.
One startling aspect of our conversation about this was as follows:
When I asked him why he thought he should drive our big family car while I had to go out and get a smaller one for myself, he replied that HE would be driving the kids to and from school for the next 5 years, as well as to all their sport and social activities for the next 5 years.
So we are separated but he sees himself as coming to the house twice a day EVERY day for the next 5 years!!!
I asked him whether we'd be getting divorced and he said he hadn't thought that far ahead.
Yikes, is this all too weird or what?
I can certainly relate to your visions of Sylvia Plath. But when I have those negative thoughts I imagine my own girls when they graduate from college or on their wedding days and I see myself so happy and proud no matter where their father is.
This journey will be longer than we could possible imagine. Celebrate what you are blessed with. Beautiful kids.
His ideas of being separated but not quite D and coming over all the time, its so strange. My H has similar ideas. I dont get it. Do they think being D is like being married, you have your exW aka the bitch take care of all the things you want her to but stay out of everything else and free up more time to act like a child.
I dont have any words of wisdom but from following your thread my gut says your H needs to hit rock rock bottom before he crawls out. He is not gonna see the problem with what he has done till he has nothing left. Sometimes I question whether DBing protects the WAS too much from seeing the reality of their actions. We are too nice.
HAng in there. Find some comfort in knowing you are not the only one out there dealing with a crazy H. It is not you. It was not you.
Hey BM, Thanks so much for this. It really helps to know someone is out there.
But it gets worse!
Just received two emails in quick succession from H saying that I must now take the kids out of their schools mid-term and prepare to sell the house immediately.
He will no longer be contributing any payments to the mortgage or school fees.
And this is because I would not agree to entering into a new lease for a 2nd BMW 5 series!!!!
He is insisting on coming over tonight to break the news to the children.
Any ideas on how to DB in the face of this?
Remember my comparing a WAS going through a MLC with a toddler going through the terrible twos and a teen going through puberty? This comes to mind now. He is really throwing a fit to get what he wants at all costs, isn't he? My goodness....
My thoughts on this...you cannot control what he says to your children. All you can do is be there for them throughout this conversation and importantly after he leaves. Take no ownership in the decisions he is making, but do not speak of him in a negative way. Simply tell them you love them, will always be there for them and are doing your very best to make the best decisions for them. He is making lots of threats right now in an effort to get the kind of car he wants (good grief!), but hopefully he will think with a cooler head soon. With regard to selling the house...are both of your names on the mortgage? If so, he can't put it on the market without your signature on it. So again, do not let him scare you into making decisions you do not believe are best for you. Seek the advice of your attorney.
It seems that he really believes he is in total control of what happens. That is wishful thinking on his part. The matters he is bringing up should be made by the two of you together or by the court if you cannot agree. He is in for a very rude awakening that absolutely everything he wants isn't going to happen.
I am really, really sorry he is doing this to you and the kids. Big hugs of support to you...hang in there.
I think you should tell him I accept that we will sell the house and the kids will leave their school but I am not prepared to have this conversation with them tonight. You need to think about this. I am shocked.
Thanks ncl and BM,
H went out to his football training/drinking session last night and so did not come over to break the 'news' to the kids.
I'm currently in limbo waiting to see what the day will bring in terms of announcements/ultimatums.
The house and mortgage are in my name (no one would lend to him with his credit record) and it will be the fact that I can't pay the bank without contributions from H that forces an immediate sale.
Not sure how H will be able to deal with the shame of having his children forced out of their home and schools.... I suppose he'll just say it's my fault.
Maybe it's all a bluff, but maybe not.
Oh dear.
More screaming from H today, insisting that he will not give me any more info on my financial situation (as my L requests) so that I can decide whether I can afford to do what he says and purchase a new car.
Here is his latest email to me:
"In this instance your delaying and obfuscating will effectively decide for you. I have made it very clear what your choice is limited to. Do it or don't do it - let me know if you decide to do it. By default - if you delay - everything will go to crap."
I think it's time to let him have a dose of reality. It's going to be hard for me and the kids, but there's no benefit to continuing to succumb to his tantrums.
Why still communicate with him? He's def beyond reasoning with. Let your attorney deal with his abusive craziness.
I like Labugs response. Let the lawyer handle this.
i agree. no point in trying to talk when he's bullying you. have him speak to your attorney and see if he continues the ranting behaviour.
((( )))
Thanks guys,
I really appreciate your input and your support.
This is really hard...
I feel almost too weak to handle much more.
And I have been racking up L fees!
Today I got a call from the bank saying they were sending in the debt collectors as the last monthly payment hadn't been made.
H had told me he'd paid this, but obviously was holding off to see if I'd agree to buy a second car.
When I texted him to ask if we could pay it, he just said 'No' and that this was 'a consequence of my choice not to do as he said about the cars'.
L said we can start proceedings against him, ask for an emergency hearing and get an injunction, etc.
But how on earth can one come back from this level of interaction??? My H holds a grudge like no-one else, and if I took him to court, that would be it.
He rang today specifically to tell me that there was absolutely no chance that we'd ever reconcile after today and that my behaviour over the cars had shown him that I hadn't changed at all. That is, I still want my own way.
Seems to me like I'm pretty much damned if I do and damned if I don't here.
But then, H brought S13 home from school and stayed to help with homework, as I'd asked him to do earlier in the day (S is having problems with school work).
I acted 'as if' Mother-Theresa-style and H was very nice - even to the point of fixing a blocked drain in our bathroom sink.
As he left, I asked him for some cash as my account was down to 0 (as he knows, having emptied it so I can't pay the mortgage). So he handed me $100.
It's completely insane....
LRT might be helpful.
Also it's seems it's now up to you to protect your child.
How best can you do that?
Labug,
At this stage I really don't know what to do to protect the kids.
If I signed the car deals like H says, he would continue paying mortgage and school fees - or so he says.
But I would lay myself open to bankruptcy if he defaulted.
If I don't sign, the school fees and mortgage payments stop as well as all credit card payments I presume - and so i am forced to bankruptcy.
In the meantime my 88 year old father has just had a serious fall and it looks as if we will have to find him a nursing home - and this involves serious $$$.
To top it all off, my L announced that if my elderly parents depart the earth before I settle with my H, he will be entitled to half of their estate as well as half of mine.
In the meantime, I have to go to work and, amongst other things, stand in front of a room full of 250 people and talk for an hour.....
Got to keep going, but sorry for myself at the moment.
We love you. The same way you would go to the ends of the earth to save your children if they were ill, you are a mother and you have the strength to see your children through this most trying time. I believe in you. Hang in there.
NLW,
Okay, time to take a deep breath and look at what you got going.
1. Father going into nursing home. I am no expert, but my Mom had to go into a nursing home early in life. It was paid through social security and medicare. More than likely that will be the same, but because nursing home cost about $3000-4000 a month and medicare says they want their money after the person dies, (if they use services over age 55), they will claim against the estate. The bad news is you may not have any inheritance. But don't quote me for sure. I would not count on it. Cherish the time you have with your father right now. I know I did with my Mom and it made it easier when she did pass.
2. If you are damned if you do and damned if you don't with H, then don't worry about what he wants/thinks because you are f'd either way. Do what YOU want to do and what is in YOUR best interest. He may be using empty threats, he may not. If he is not, would you really want to be with a guy who is that selfish? Don't be afraid to let your lawyer chew butt if H is not following court orders. Maybe this is a teachable moment for him.
3. As for finances, I feel for you. I can barely afford legal representation myself and I am trying to negotiate a compromise. If W won't agree to negotiate, I will borrow what I can and get full custody (as I have a really solid case). I don't want to do it to preserve a relationship with W, but my D1 comes first and if W acts like a rabid animal, I would have to put her down (figuratively speaking). I gave her a chance, just like you are giving him a chance.
4. As for bankruptcy, maybe see a financial counselor. It seems like afters this whole mess is over you may find that declaring bankruptcy to start over may not be so bad as you have custody and can only go up from there. Maybe in divorce court you can put lawyer fees as part of your debt as H is being a D%^k about following court orders. You'd be surprised what your L may be able to twist out of him.
Whatever you do, don't make false threats and if you draw a line in the sand stand by it. No paper lion for you. If he crossed the lines he looses his dingles and he will have done it to himself. End of story.
You have a long road to go, as I do, because your kids are so young if you are religious, pray often. Remember that good and bad times happen for a reason and that this is a time to learn, but as you learn you will still have people in your corner to help you.
I will end with this. 2 nights ago I prayed to St. Michael the Archangel to guide me in battle and protect me form the evil that is testing me. The next day a co-worker who is married to a judge handed me an envelope with $200 and names of GOOD L. It was the start of a legal fund. All of a sudden other friends are jumping on the band wagon. Today I found a GOOD L that can handle W's L pretty well and is agreeing with me to use force only if I allow her (but is perfectly comfortable with ripping W a new one!) In fact she discounted my fee just for the pleasure of kicking her butt in court, because I am that good of a guy! Go figure.
Good things can happen. Pray. Keep your eyes, ears, and heart open. The message comes in a whisper not blaring. You will make this and we will be with you.
Thanks you guys,
You are really making it possible for me to keep going with your support and feedback.
I am reading and re-reading what you've had to say, and please be assured, it is helping.
My H has been frantic today with texts, as it appears that his time for renewing the lease is really running out.
I've basically said I'll sign as long as he agrees to a separation doc that sets out what each of us is responsible for paying for in terms of the kids, house, shared debts.
At the 11th-hour he finally agreed to this. But then almost immediately he reneged, and said it was a waste of time.
Said if I didn't sign I'd soon find myself walking from a housing trust (i.e. welfare sponsored) home in Suburb X (a notorious lower-class neighbourhood that is miles away from the city where we now live).
Charming!
Then he said he has instructed his L to draft divorce papers (not sure that this can be done before 12 months in our state) and had put a caveat on the house (this was delivered by registered mail today).
I stayed clam and patient and said why don't we try for a sep doc - and he eventually told me to do whatever I liked :
"You do what you have to do to get this done. I am tired of the discussion - be aware that I will not be negotiating terms so if you think you need to change a little detail here and there don't waste your time and money. If you want to spend another $500 on a 'maybe' then go for it. It is entirely up to you - I don't care. Your money - do whatever you please. Just leave me alone and make a decision."
He seems to be at breaking point - almost hysterical and flipping back and forth with every changing moment. And all this over a car....
Quite scary, in fact.
I have the feeling that if H can't 'win' this one, that will be it.
It's like a battle of the wills for him. Doesn't matter that it's irrational to just take his word for it that I'll be able to pay for a new car for myself. I just have to do what he tells me; he needs desperately to be able to have his way.
He might be right, it may be the only way we can keep things afloat, financially.
Or he may be delusional, seriously so, and I may sink our little ship by trying to stop and save him from drowning.
Wow NLW. Just read some of the most recent posts on your thread. You need to go LRT on your H. ASAP.
You both have lawyers. All communication should be through them. I am a L, and technically, when both parties have representation, communication regarding whatever the legal issue is, here divorce, should be through that representation. Next time your H makes any kind of demand on you, tell him to have his people contact your's. end of story. Do not play this game with him.
Go LRT. Now. And, if you are still in this to save your M, tell your L to do whatever is necessary to drag things out as long as possible. F what your H thinks he wants. He's out of his mind, and is thinking only of selfish needs and desires.
What state are you in? What is the 'cooling off' period under that state's divorce law?
Hang in there. This is tough stuff.
Denver
Hi Denver,
Thanks for looking in - very good advice and I need to follow it.
Comforting, as silly as that sounds, to hear that someone else thinks my H is out of his mind at the moment.
I'm really struggling to deal with him.
Re your question - I'm not in the US, so state-based laws don't apply to my sitch.
As far as I know, it's no-fault D after 12 months separation and asset division via agreement between parties or mediation or court order.
NLW, have you read How To Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It? I saw where you posted that H had really not been angry until the financial discussions began. The book explores the feelings men have about being "the Provider" and the shame that engulfs them when they feel they have failed in that. They are taken over by it and react from that place of shame.
It might help you to understand where he is and forewarned is forearmed.
Hi Labug,
I've got this book - and it's describing my H to a tee.
In respect of the cars, I believe it's the fact that he will lose the visible status associated with driving an expensive luxurious car (and end up having to drive a basic 2nd- hander)
together with the fact that his family (i.e., the kids and me) will also have to be seen around town either walking, or in a cheap 2nd-hand car, that's making him flip out.
Throw in the fact that we'll probably lose the house if he can't continue to contribute to the mortgage repayments due to having to find $10K to break the car lease, and you have the perfect storm.
The public nature of his failure to be able to provide for his family is simply too much for him.
Having recognised this, and read the book, still not sure how to deal with it adequately....
NLW,
Your H's behavior to you is abusive (what we used to call crap behavior around here) -- both in content and tone.
You don't deserve crap behavior and should not tolerate it. If you demand respectful behavior from your H, he is more likely to respect you.
That is one function of LRT, as suggested by Denver (not to allow H to cross your boundaries in how he treats you), but if you do not want to go all the way there yet, you can simply say,
H, when you give threats or ultimatums, I feel bullied and intimidated. I know that this stuff can be tough to talk about, but I can't talk to someone that is treating me like that. If you keep treating me that way, I am going to hang up and not answer the phone for 30 minutes. And if he keeps it up, you hang up and not answer his calls 30 minutes. And you keep doing this (lengthening the consequence incrementally up to full LRT, perhaps) until he treats you with the respect you deserve.
regardless of what your situation is legally, you have a lawyer now.
Re-read Denver's post and follow it. You have no choice but to protect yourself NOW.
Doesn't make it "over" and in fact keeping the legal discussions between the L's tends to help smooth things over a bit between the spouses ("blame the L's" isn't a bad idea. It's what you are paying them for, at least in part).
Does it get more expensive that way?
Well, IN YOUR SITCH you'd be as nutty as your h if you think following his advice will save YOU money.
Sorry for the bluntness but I just want you to be able to separate the issues. Yes, compartmentalize...
you really have to atm.
((( )))
Thanks 25, Busto for looking in on my sitch.
I really appreciate your advice and will not engage with his ultimatums/financial issues from now on using the suggestions you, Denver and others have provided.
H has gone nc since our blow-out around cars on Friday. It's a long weekend here and H simply hasn't bothered to contact the kids at all.
As it turns out, the kids and I have been otherwise occupied - my dad was hospitalised after a bad fall on Saturday, so I've spent most of the weekend in the ER.
Not quite GAL, but it's certainly occupied my time.
I'm feeling very fragile right now and just need to get some of this out.
My MIL told me last week that she'd been talking to my H.
She said, with really strong conviction:
"NLW, H is not going to come back"
I keep hearing her voice saying this, and it's really thrown me.
It's like it's taken away all of my confidence to continue on my path.
She's a sensible woman and has been trying to help me. And she would not say something like this lightly. Up until now, she's just been saying - "Give him some time alone, take it day by day", etc.
I now wonder if I'm just stuck in denial. Everyone sees this as done except me. Even my kids.
I still can't believe that this is happening to me - even after all this time (nearly 7 months now!!!) and despite what my H keeps saying and doing.
I've re-read DR for the 25th time and realise that it's important not to give up hope, and that I need to get my focus off H and onto myself, and to be more patient than seems possible to bear.
Just feel like I would really like to hear from someone who's had this said to them by a confidant of a WAS.
I'm Not in that boat NLW
but I think there is always hope...
I have 2 family members who divorced and later on, after all parties had changed a lot
they remarried. It was about 5 years though...so it happens.
You can hope for the best but prepare for the worst,
and know you'll survive (and more) no matter what happens.
You may have to leave your h to his "mission" as he sees it.
Let him discover the grass is greenest where you water it most.
YOU cannot teach him this. He has to discover it.
But you do have children and yourself to consider. THink about how the flight attendants say "Put the O2 mask on YOU first, then help others"?.
Take care of yourself, and your chlldren. GAL and please please please
DETACH!!
Below is a short post about detachment. Good luck!
DETACHMENT
"This was originally posted by Peanut.
============
II. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done. Our ego gets wounded and we say or do things that undermine our goals.
We can NOT control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.
If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals. On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, "I am not getting what I want so I must pull back." It is the natural acceptance of the reality that "I am alone responsible for how I act. I cannot control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."
NLW, I have had same doubts tonight. Your mother in law can not predict the future and neither can you or your H. Enjoy each day you are given with your beautiful kids. You are truly blessed with wonderful, healthy kids. Write a gratitude list every morning.
With all due respect to 25 and the other posters on this board. I hate the phrase detachment. I always think "of course I am attached to my H, I married him." I know I know it means something else, but when I hear the word I stop listening.
My 2 cents, dont stop believing but start moving on and moving forward. Tell everyone you know that its over and you are moving on. Be as sweet as pie to him but stand your ground in the legal department. Drop the rope. He aint gonna wake up till he's rock bottom and on his knees. Give him a little push. (Sorry I am not in DB mode right now)
Bklyn,
Thanks for taking the time to let me know this... it' just what I needed to hear.
Your perspective always appeals to me and makes me feel better when I'm down.
I am starting to move on - finally have kid-free GAL activities planned for the next 2 Saturday nights and I will need to ask H to mind S13 while I'm out late.
Quite a turn-around for me, but all part of getting on with my life without him.
You are a great virtual friend, and I hope you realise what help and comfort you bring with your posts.
Best, NLW
NLW,
I am so very grateful to see that a couple of our well-respected DB'ing attorneys on the boards have chimed in regarding your situation. I cannot stress enough that you need to take their advice to heart. Please turn all financial matters over to your attorney immediately and enforce LRT on your husband (STOP THE CONTACT!). For what it's worth, your MIL, nor anyone else for that matter (including your husband at this point), has any way of knowing if your husband will return to the marriage or not. But please, for now do not worry with this possibility. Instead, as mlc urged, take care of YOU and your children. Take him out of the equation for the future, and focus on meeting the needs of yourself and the children.
My husband made it crystal clear to me many times that he would NEVER return to our marriage (this while we were in the midst of divorce proceedings and fighting through our lawyers...throw him, also an attorney, into the mix, and it was a real picnic...not). And today? Our reconciliation is going extremely well, and I can honestly say we are 1000% happier than we have been in many years, if not ever. It's taken a heck of a lot of work to get here, and it is a work in progress, BUT it can happen. I'm with mlc on this one...don't give up hope if you don't want to.
But I can say this with complete confidence and certainty...even if my husband hadn't returned, guess what? I'd be okay. And you will be too.
love and hugs....hang in there and REMAIN STRONG!!! And sweet friend...I hope your dad is doing better. Never forget that you are a wonderful, smart, funny, kind, loving, beautiful mom, daughter, business woman, wife (too bad he's missing out), friend, lady in general. You can get through this one way or another. I KNOW you can.
Just feel like I would really like to hear from someone who's had this said to them by a confidant of a WAS.
My wife is VERY close to her sister. In the first few months of our S, I was still having a lot of contact with my BIL. He told me that W was dead set on her decision to D me and that I should probably 'move on'.
So yes, I understand how you feel.
A couple of things:
1) No one can say for certain how this is going to turn out. Not even your H. One thing that I have learned over the past 15+ months is that things can, and sometimes do, change in a second. In both good and a bad ways. One minute it seemed my W would never ever consider reconciling, the next, she missed me... the next minute, I'm spending tons of time with her, a second later, I find out that she misses OM. Up and down, up and down. That's why they say this process can be a roller coaster ride from hell. It has been for me.
2) So, don't get too caught up on what you hear. I'm sure that someone here has told you to believe ZERO of what you hear and only half of what you see. That is very, very true.
3) Know that your H is going through emotional turmoil right now too. I don't care what he says or does, he is. This is a life transition for him too and I guarantee you that underneath all of the venom, there is a doubt. He has to work through the emotions that he is feeling before he can address the doubt. The anger? Most likely his attempt to convince himself that he is doing the right thing and is making the right decision. See, he has to be angry in order to do what he is doing. That anger gives him strength. My W has flat out admitted that is why she would be so hateful and mean to mean at times during this process. She had to be in order to leave and stay left. I broke that down by letting her go through her emotions, letting her alone, not responding to it, understanding, and continuing to love.
4) points 1-3 are not to get your hopes up. Listen to 25MLC. She is exactly right. You need to detach. And I suggested going on a strict diet of LRT. I think that both are very appropriate here. This is for you and for your emotional well being, but it will also serve the purpose of item 3 above. You need to remove yourself from the equation and let him go through this process. Only then will you see how the dust settles.
I'm sorry that you are hurting so much. I know and understand how that feels. Know that it will get better no matter what happens. Time does heal.
Denver
brook,
I know the word detachment is possibly over used but it's also misunderstood. Your comment to "drop the rope" is what I think it means, at least to me.
NLW, not saying 'give up' but prepare yourself for a happy life,[i] with or without h.
[/i]
what would it look like to be without him AND yet happy? Flesh that vision out.
Finally, what Denver says rings true. When I read my own journal from 2005 I got mad all over again at h, for one thing. SO it's not super helpful
but my point is I believed what I said at the time, or at least most of it.
I predicted my m would end and gave it a "10% chance" of making it.
SO Nothing is written in stone. fwiw I think your inlaws MEAN well but it also means
you have to back way off your h. I mean WAY WAY BACK
so he thinks you believe him b/c
only then will be feel free enough to look around and see what his choices are creating.
The more you challenge his choices OR appear to be doing that with further contact/pursuit,
the more pressure/expectations he'll feel. So he'll defend the choices and stand by them, and get them MORE entrenched and solidified.
Act as if you believe him and are moving on. See, your course of action is THE SAME
whether or not he returns. (another example in my mind, of detachment or if you prefer, "dropping the rope")
IF he returns you will be in a much better place emotionally and financially to engage with him.
(I also believe he's more likely to return if you back off but it can't be the goal of backing off or that is merely a tactic)
I know it's a paradox.
But if he does not return and you've moved forward in your life, then happiness wil be created that much sooner.
If he does return you are better prepared and equipped so
your action plan is protecting yourself financially, dropping the rope and
truly GAL...for real
i know you wrote this to NLW - but i just wanted to add that i am so glad i came across this thread and read what you wrote - it helps me so much, to gain another layer of perspective on my own situation and to take one more tiny step forward.
thanks
zig