Time for a new thread. Here are the links to the previous threads:
Thread #1 Thread #2 Thread #3 Thread #4 As I begin my 5th thread since first joining the forum back in September, it is appropriate to reflect on my journey thus far and look to the future.
After a few fits and starts, doing all the wrong things while searching for answers, breaking the news of our separation to my 2 wonderful boys, moving out of the house and trying to GAL, working hard on improving myself and just as hard to figure out this concept called detachment, I think I am finally starting to get it.
It has only been a few short months but it feels like an eternity. I liken this journey to what a convicted criminal must feel after having been sentenced to a long prison term and waking up on month 5 and realizing that there are still 9 years, 8 months, 2 days and 11 hours left in his sentence. Maybe with good behavior, the sentence will be reduced.
In recent weeks I feel like I am starting to see glimmers of a softening heart in my W. She is still active with OM but at least she doesn't seem to recoil at my presence and we have actually had several positive interactions since our joint C session early in December.
I know that I still have a very long journey ahead of me and I am comforted by the knowledge that the friendships that have formed and the support I get from members of this forum are going to carry me along for as as long as I am willing to stay on this roller coaster ride.
And a roller coaster it is! One day you are up, climbing the hill, success just within reach. Then, down you go, racing towards the bottom where sadness and despair await. You whip around a corner and then you are headed back up the hill only to repeat the cycle again and again and again.
Some roller coaster are fun and others are not. My roller coaster is not so much fun. I do however think that I am beginning to learn how to lean into the banks and turns, hold on and close my eyes when the drop comes and look around and survey my surroundings when I am heading back up to the top.
So the title of my thread seems appropriate as I continue to venture into the darkness and continue on the roller coaster that is my journey.
I am glad I have friends and support who are willing to hold my hand when the path is dark and shadowy and the roller coaster is running faster and more scary.
So now it is time for me to check and make sure that the restraining bar is lowered and in the locked position, for my ride is about to continue...............
I am holding on for dear life to my restraint bar! I've only been on the ride for a little over a month, and I've already gotten sick from all the ups and downs, someone please make it stop!!
When you figure out how to perfect the detaching thing, could you please make an easy to swallow pill that works quickly? That would be very appreciated
I've enjoyed following your 'roller coaster' and get inspired by your journey... keep the posts coming!
25 posted the following on "lostadrift's" thread and I wanted to bring it over here to get some perspective:
"Actually IMO, the reason that more divorces END when a wife leaves, as opposed to when a h leaves, is b/c a woman usually only leaves when she has nothing at all left for her h. Her love tank is totally empty. Therefore there's no real reason for her to "try and make it work".
In her mind she already has done the work for years. And when her needs were not met she looked to the kids b/c all woman want intimacy in their lives. (It's a NEED we have.)"
I have been thinking about this very topic for several weeks now. It is my observation after hanging out on this forum for the past several months that men seem to be more inclined to return to the M then women do.
Maybe men are weak when it comes to their R's and all they want after they've left to go find themselves or whatever, is to get their woman back. Kind of like having their cake and eating it too.
On the other hand, when women leave the R it just seems rare that the woman will come back after she's done finding herself. It makes me wonder just how much hope there really is in busting the D when it is the W who has left (emotionally, anyway).
The other observation I've made is that when women do come back it seems like it is only when they have actually left the R both emotionally and more specifically, physically. Sort of like they realize that they want their family and home back and don't like living on their own.
In my sitch, my W left the R emotionally (is also having an A) but I'm the one who moved out. She has the comfort and security of the house and the kids and she has her emotional support in the form of OM. She kind of has all that she needs and I'm left waiting in the wings so to speak.
=========================
A friend of mine who is wise in so many ways called me this morning to see what I was up to. I was up late last night and after 7 hours or so of sleep I woke up with a plan to shower and do something productive today. However, after I took my shower, I felt tired and went back to sleep. That is when my friend called.
So I ended up getting up and helping my friend do a few things that required an extra set of hands. This is when my friend said, "I'm worried about you, 2thepoint. I hate to tell you this but I think you are depressed and I'm worried. You need to get out of this funk you are in and do something productive."
Now this is the same friend who told me a few months ago when I apparently gave him a "look" that he was surprised that my W hadn't kicked me out of the house. That was a HUGE wake-up call for me about some non-verbal behaviors that clearly were problematic but I wasn't even aware of them.
So anyway my friend as I say is wise and now I'm am beginning to wonder if in fact I may be "depressed". God I don't want to be! There is such a stigma attached to this and the thought of taking meds to manage it is really not something I want to consider.
My W takes meds. They finally seem to have helped her some after many years of experimenting with various prescriptions and dosages. The thing that troubles me though is her altered mood always seems to be a little, I don't know how to describe it... over the top maybe? She gets giggly, etc. Then if she doesn't take her meds her mood becomes very erratic.
I also saw this a lot when I managed a large service center operation. There were many women and some men who were on meds and when they did't take them for whatever reason they became very erratic and became big big problems for management. I don't want this for myself. And I don't want to be on meds for the rest of my life either. Surely there are other alternatives.
Any advice or perspective on the two topics above is appreciated.
Just because you may have depression, doesn't mean you have to take meds. I am thought (by W, friends and therapist) to have some sort of depression myself, but exercise and diet has really had a great effect on me with dealing with that. I still do not get much sleep, I was told to try some natural sleep aids first, before experimenting with prescriptions.
2,
Get an actual diagnosis and then figure out your treatment plan. Depression is way too complicated to try and figure it out here.
Good luck! For those with depression, the right treatment can be a life changer.
I have taken the AD's 2 times in my life. First time I WAS clinically depressed after my father's sudden death. Met 17 of the 20 criteria but would not have gone to a shrink & taken anything but for 2 things. 1) my new job required a lot of concentration and I was simply NOT cutting it and could not focus; and
2) h told the kids that I was sad but after 6 weeks, my d4 asked me if I was "going to be sad everyday"...
that broke my heart so I vowed that minute to see someone so I could snap out of it. And the ADs I got amazed me. (Serotonin related) They dramatically helped me in DAYS not weeks...yes there were some side effects
(not emotional but sexual, but I had those symptoms when I was depressed anyhow)
so they were worth it at the time. Plus I was more available for intimacy b/c there was less weird guilt about my dad's death, etc. And I needed the ADs...I took them for about 6 months and also saw a T for grief, and then got off them. I did not notice withdrawal at all, but tapered off over a week.
The Other time I took a different form of ADs for the winters in Alaska's interior. Not a serotonin related one, but more like a stimulant like tobacco quitters' take (Wellbutrin??) and it felt like long lasting extra caffeine with a slightly optimistic bent. It's in a different class of ADs...
I felt normal and upbeat like in the spring time, like MYSELF NOT HIBERNATING... the lack of sunlight really got to me and wears me out. This med just made me normal feeling. I was not 'Uber depressed" but lacked energy and motivation and felt like hibernating...isolating, sleeping A LOT eating a lot or not at all, etc.
This matters when there is little daylight and they helped too. But I was Not "clinically depressed" like w/my dad's death, so much what they call the "winter blues". There are some who get really nutty in the winter there however.
I'm not sure which group you fit into or a third group 2...
Oh
And when h left I took some sleep aids and anti anxiety meds for awhile, now and then, b/c that's where the obessive stuff can hurt you OR your situation.
You cannot keep obsessing 24/7 though God knows I tried.
Also You have to be available to your kids and if meds will help you do that, then take them. I had been too preoccupied before.
If you are not able to sleep well, then A LOT of other things will sukk in your life too
I think in your sitch you should have NO STIGMA for God's sake...and it won't be used against you with the children since your w takes them. What's the downside?
IF YOU have side effects you dont like, stop taking them.
I felt zero bad side effects, mentally. Certainly no "giddy" stuff. Frankly, I am not sure I've even heard of that side effect of regular ADs...
maybe your w is taking something else OR maybe she has a different condition?
Regardless, give yourself permission to explore this. If anti depressants are ever appropriate in situations, then death and divorce are up there as reasons, aren't they?
I've worked for the gov and had a high security clearance. Regular AD's won't hurt you in this situation, professionally speaking.
NEXT POST on the other issue...
2, yes there is still stigma attached to depression and that's what keeps many people from getting the proper treatment. So many people walk around with depression and it affects not only them but their family members, the people they work with, etc.
Take your friends impressions into consideration but get a good diagnosis.
Hmmm... really thinking about your post re: woman coming back. At this point I am too biased and dont understand why anyone would walk away. If you are unhappy you talk to your partner and go to a MC and see if you can work it out, if you cant you cant - you dont walk away.
Anyway, I do truly believe that WAS need to see consistent changes over time that they can trust. If you show those consistent changes then the WAS is really a fool not to come back.
Unfortunately I think most C encourage people to become "self actualized" and "find them selfs" and dont even let ones marriage be a consideration in their process.
Regarding AD, I am highly medicated right now and would not be typing if I were not highly medicated. (I would just be lurking & crying). My H moved out in July and I was minimally functioning until Sept when I got on meds. I still feel down but I can get on with my day. Get a proper diagnosis but dont dismiss it because of a stigma. Your sitch like many of ours is a huge trauma be grateful that there is a treatment.
I agree with the others -- get an official diagnosis. I think that depression to a degree is pretty normal with a sitch like this. People can throw the word "depression" around casually without really knowing when it's developed into a real problem.
As for the W walking away, here is another thing to mull over: I read in "After the Affair" by Janis Spring that many M's where the W leaves are less likely to be repaired because men are more likely to move on and develop an R with somebody else. That might be a factor for you to consider.
Get the diagnosis and med recommendation from a qualified professional. STBX last set of AD scripts were written by her GYN. Not that you’ll use a GYN, but my GP asked me if I needed something. I am quite certain I could have asked for sleep aids or ADs with the right justification.
As for the other, I’m going to lurk and learn. Probably go back to the GP and justify a script b/c I suspect I am about to need it.
It is very important to get a professional's diagnosis. Most doctors will take your concerns into consideration, but they will help you decide the best course of action (ie:meds, lifestyle and/or homeopathic remedies)
I have suffered from depression since I was 16. I've tried 7 different types of AD meds and usually only need them for about 6 months to get a handle on the situation. My worst depression was after my 1st son (post-partum psychosis) and doctor's didn't believe me when I said I was really suffering, so I went unmedicated for 2 years (during which time I saw about 10 different GYN's and me and my H walked out of most of them) It took a year of heavy prescriptions to get passed that stage.
In my current sitch, I *know* that I am depressed (I've learned what it feels like for me and how it manifests in my life.) I have chosen not to do prescription drugs, but to do the homeopathic path. Here is what I do... this was decided between my GYN and my cardiologist. Of course, I am NOT a doctor and you should always check with your doctor about the best course of action.
Take St.Johns Wort, daily.
Take 50,000 IU of Vitamin D3 weekly. Your body will best absorb this dose if you break it up to 25,000 twice a week. Because you can usually only find the pills in 500 IU or 200 IU, you end up having to take 50 at a time- but they are really small and you can swallow about 10 at a time.
After I started this regimen, it took about 3 days to notice that I could get up without crying each morning. Now don't get me wrong, I can still get happy and sad- but I don't fall into despair like I used to with my current sitch.
Depression doesn't have to be a stigma. It doesn't mean you are broken.
It makes me mad that it's sometime thrown around as the 'in thing' to be at the moment- because I know what it truly means to suffer from *real* diagnosed depression.
I will pray that you find some peace with the possibility of this diagnosis, but also hope that you realize you are IN NO WAY alone and have no reason to be embarrassed.
On the other hand, when women leave the R it just seems rare that the woman will come back after she's done finding herself. It makes me wonder just how much hope there really is in busting the D when it is the W who has left (emotionally, anyway).
The other observation I've made is that when women do come back it seems like it is only when they have actually left the R both emotionally and more specifically, physically. Sort of like they realize that they want their family and home back and don't like living on their own.
My wife left both emotionally and physically. When she decided to work on things, she still did not want to set foot in the house that she had left. In fact, she did not set foot in it for months. She came back to the R, but NOT to the house that she had physically left. She actually quite liked her apartment and the new space she had made for herself. She just decided that *I* was missing as part of her life. We ended up buying a new home after we had pieced for several months.
This is when my friend said, "I'm worried about you, 2thepoint. I hate to tell you this but I think you are depressed and I'm worried. You need to get out of this funk you are in and do something productive."
There is nothing wrong with being depressed. I was depressed out of my gourd. What matters is how you handle it. Confront it head on, not like an ostrich. If you don't want to take meds, there are lots of other alternatives -- look up cognitive-behavioral therapy, the self-help book Feeling Good, regular exercise, regular GAL/social activities, proper diet and sleep. The more activities and exercise you do and the more you get OUT there and not be alone or by yourself in your new place, the more mood momentum you will gain.
BTW, 2thepoint
I went back and read part of your just closed thread. Happy belated birthday and Merry Christmas!
Re: your W's planned rendezvous #4 with OM:
1) You cannot control what she does, so do not try.
2) You CAN control how you allow others to treat you and whether you allow them to cross the boundary of what is acceptable to you.
3) It is possible to go dark with kids -- I have 3 girls and went dark with my W. At some point in our sitch, I told her that the situation was no longer working for me and that, in order for me to move on, I would not respond to her calls or texts unless they were emergencies about the kids. I stuck to no contact pretty well for a few months and broke it to let her know that I was intending to file for divorce.
I am not suggesting you do this (or not do this). Just that no contact IS possible with kids if you really want it for yourself.
2tp if you are feeling sad most of the time had changes in appetite sleep lost interest in things you liked thinking about death feeling tired you might be depressed. Do not use your family doctor see a psychiatrist. They have better knowledge. Bustorama is also correct cognitive therapy has good results with depression. If you were not depressed before the sitch chances are that the sitch triggered it. Lack of sleep like 25 said can make things worst. If you are prescribed mess it can be temporary so do not worry about that. Who cares about stigma at this point we are about to lose our Ws family and all that we care for. So take care of yourself first.Besides if you get treated you won't be depressed and noone will know that u are, right? So no stigma
The second question all I know is that man fair better after aD than woman.
Hang in there my friend
Thanks everyone for your perspectives on depression. I guess my next step is to seek a professional opinion and then go from there. I'll also do some research on alternative remedies and methods for treating depression. I'll keep you posted on what I discover. The issue on stigma is a thorny one that I'll need to work on.
Regarding the concept of the DB success rate for men who's W's walked away from the M emotionally but the H was the one who actually left physically (my sitch), I'd really like to get some more perspective on that.
25 made the point in a different thread that women who leave the M are less likely to return then men who leave. I am beginning to have my doubts that there really is going to be much hope for me considering the particularly dynamics of my sitch.
I see stories of the WAW who moved out but came back, the WAH who moved out but came back. What I don't see much evidence of is the WAW who's H was the one to move out and then finding a way to reconcile. I'm sure those stories exist, I just haven't seen many of them.
Hey 2TP, good for you for being open to speaking with a professional about this. It sounds like that is a big step for you so congratulations on atleast being open to the idea of taking medication and/or herbal remedies.
2
I mentioned a statistic that said WAWs are less likely to return than WAH's....I cannot recall where I read that, so maybe it's not even true.
But I theorized based on my observations and personal experience why that MIGHT be...
Unlike Rick, I do NOT think men fare better than women after divorce EXCEPT financially they tend to recover faster (maybe that's what Rick meant?). Men tend to retain 2/3 of their income for only themselves whereas most women with children take "pay cuts" to care for more people.
But that is more due to men usually earning more to begin with, and that custody usually goes to the wife so she has more costs than he does.
Supposedly, Women who leave tend to regret it less than men who leave. Maybe that's why they return less often. Women report more 'happiness post divorce" than men but I wish I knew if they were asking women WHO HAD LEFT versus LBSers...
My THEORY and it's only that, (and it's only about wives/mothers)
is b/c women tend to weigh out our feelings of love versus dislike...on a "scale."
And it's NOT as if we leave when the scales tip some. We seem ONLY to leave
when there is NOTHING left on the "Love" side of things...
If the man is a good provider or father, it's much harder to leave b/c there is SOMETHING on the "pro" side of the scale. He has to really have a lot of negatives for her to leave b/c the scale really has to be one sided.
Of course, if he's underemployed or not a great dad, plus not a great mate, that makes it a clearer choice.
My fil is a great example. He has had 3 wives leave him (yeah, he was a super good catch....)
On the upside, He is well educated, looks like Paul Newman, works his butt off, made good money (but was cheap with it) and is a war hero.
But he drank too much and was hyper controlling and chronically spouting criticisms that I don't even know if he realized were negative...he needed better social skills for sure.
Each wife loved him at one point. Each wife left him when there was no love left. NOT one of them returned to him even when he made changes to get them back. He finally figured it "Might be HIM"...
He met wife#4 but she was a widow who had been HAPPILY married for decades. She knew healthy ways of resolving conflict!!
So it was from her, HE learned them...when she threatened to leave him b/c of his drinking and abusive nuttiness
HE STOPPED in his tracks. I think he thanked her for the warning but I'm not sure. I just know she warned him BEFORE she stopped loving him, and they are still together now after 18 years. He reports being "happier than ever in his life" and they married when He was 62 so yes, people can change.
But I bet all the other wives had warned him too. For sure the one previous wife I knew, "J", DID warn him...more than once, not to hit or drink or berate her so much.
He hit her once and she said "if you ever do that again, I'll leave you". 2 years later he got drunk and hit J. I really believe he had no recall of it. He even asked her what happened. J said "You hit me, and I'm done."
And J WAS done!...
My fil changed a lot after he lost J...and it made me frustrated to see that now, he "gets it, J...so take him back!"
But she calmly told ME, "I cannot go back to that life anymore...I took it for so long that I wasn't even me anymore. And the mere chance of him reverting to what we had, is too much for me to handle. It's not worth it b/c even when things were good they did not make up for when things were bad. I am happy now, without him." And she was and still is.
But like I said, HE changed---So that when he finally met his present wife HE was ready to do what was needed for a healthy marriage.
Financially my fil did better than ALL his ex wives combined. But they were all glad to be divorced from him...
His present wife and he are both independently wealthy and I sometimes think that an independent woman who does not "need" him
is the type he cannot mistreat...so maybe that's a factor too. He's also a lot less cheap and isn't waiting for a rainy day to live well. I KNOW wife #4 taught him that b/c when he saw her home compared to his they agreed completely, to move into HERS and rebuild their own...he had made his first 3 wives work like slaves to live in an OLD house with problems, and he was a millionaire.
The relevant question is, what types of women DO COME BACK and why?
it's not simple but I think we can say that there are a few things in common with WAWs who return.
1) they ALL believe their marriages can improve...how they decide that is mostly dependent on the h's response I think...and the WAWs openess to believing in change.
2) there is some love left deep down, for their h's....OR they have kids together.
3) unknown variables...e.g., maybe the WAW wasn't sure to begin with or was testing her h to see her value to him
OR
maybe she thought there was a better OM out there but there wasn't...
OR
maybe she was having an MLC and worked it out...
My sister left her h, and returned to him when he said and did things she needed from him and had needed from him AND had communicated to him, for about 2 years of their 7 year marriage. Only when she left and met OM did he make serious efforts to make their marriage a priority.
Within months of her return, he began to backslide and didn't take too kindly to reminders from her about his previous promises....
so she left him again, for good...NO looking back. She is happy now BUT she has confessed that if she had worked harder on THAT FIRST marriage things could have worked out. That doesn't exactly mean she "regrets" leaving him b/c she also feels they were very very different...(and too young)
2-and whoever else is interested *****
HERE ARE THE WORDS OF A WAW (to Denver) when he was frustrated about why his WAW wasn't taking him back fast enough
b/c after all, HE had changed...( And I believe him) and she had found an OM in their separation...
The DB moderator posted it on "Classics." I know many of the women
echo these sentiments for the men who feel shocked ("shocked, I tell you!") that their wives won't return
when the h has said he is "sorry" or has made some changes...
Here is what this WAW said...
"I know what you're going through is tough. And I think you've gotten some really good advice here over all. I just want to chime in from a W's perspective.
When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M.
I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that, bought the t-shirt. Of course, my H went a step further and cheated, then left, adding an extra crunchy layer of goodness to my sitch.
One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.
Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.
So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.
Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time. And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought. Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.
And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.
Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.
Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell."
___
2, and others, hope this helps. I can sum it up by saying that if you can muster up some real empathy for your wives and how they got where they are now
you'll be better able to see why YOU MUST BE MORE PATIENT THAN YOU EVER THOUGHT YOU COULD BE
b/c if your wife feels like this ^^^ wife did,
you've been tougher to live with and harder on her than you ever though you could be...
I'll post on 25's and others comments at another time. For now, I'd like to wish everyone on the forum a very Happy New Year!
Speaking of 25, I think she once said...
"Believe in miracles, prepare for the worst, hope for the best."
May that be our focus in 2012!
2 Man - I would really caution against the depression diagnosis, or the meds. Who the hell wouldn't be depressed going through what you are?
You soul is hurting, and medication is going to mask it in some form. That's going to help you?
There are so many other ways out of this. You have such a strong spiritual base. Start there. Take the pain by being brutally honest and that's tough but by doing that you will allow your soul to evolve. The strongest swords are forged in the most intense heat. That's really what we are here for.
Instead of meds, stay with the yoga you tried on your vacation. Try Bikram yoga. I do it, and trust me it's not the yoga guys laugh about as being pansy like, gay, etc. This is 90 minutes in 104 degree heat at 40% humidity. It is like opening yourself up, and purging everything. It heals you from the inside out and is good for your soul, but also good for all of your bodily systems. I gauranty you will feel on top of the world after each class and this will carry over into every apsect of your life.
Another thing I have realized in the past few days and I hope it is something I can carry with me for the rest of my days. If we think in terms of how we can help others all the time, it makes us better men in this world. I was reflecting on my M to date and how we got to the bomb and I realized that so much of the anger I carried was because I was thinking of how my wife's actions were hurting me. And they were tough and hurtful but what if I had been thinking in terms of her more than personal protection from hurt? Maybe the chain reaction of stress would have been reduced so much and better answers found. Let's say you're hurt by your W's action then you get pissed, bitter and defensive. How is an environment for healing created when things start off like this? My point is that you know yourself, you know what you need to be fulfilled. It probably isn't too much. Maybe if we can take the focus of us and learn to think in terms of giving, i.e our first thought is how can we help, then maybe the environment we want to see to heal our M can be created.
For example, I was a bundle of anger towards my W for years, pre and post bomb. It hit me to give up the self, the focus on what I want and just be here to help others. Not in the Mother Theresa extreme but just simply thinking in terms of how can I help. With my wife I can see her just relaxing more and more and allowing me to do more and more for her. The more I think of her first the more I have been seeing so much more clearly what her needs are and why she's where she is. I see her thawing across the board, our family unit becoming stronger, and her starting to lean on me in her struggles. That could not have happened in the early bombing run and certainly not if I had kept my anger white hot.
And you may see real progress like you have but will still get the moments that will seem like backsliding. What I trying to say is that when you have a mindset of giving to others first then when these backslides occur, your reaction may not be one that backslides as well, and your W will feel more comfortable each time. For example, tonight all of our sons were out for new years so it was just me and the W. She helped with the plans for the night, was pleasant, warm, lying next to me on the couch, and came close to feeling like the bomb had never happened. Mind you, this would have been impossible three months ago. At the end of the night I was complimenting her on the way she handled something with our youngest and she sarcastically brought up something I said six months ago when I questioned her actions as a mother. I could have said all the things about how her actions were in fact pretty bad at the time in terms of being a Mom and W, and I could have defended myself about how I had some reasons to think that then, but I thought in terms of her first, her needs, her crisis, not me, not how it affected me, but her. I simply apologized and said I didn't handle this sitch very well back then. She needed to vent and I let her do it. Trust me, three months ago this would have been a barn burner.
I'm not giving you my personal examples so I can talk about me but to show some real life live fire sitches that maybe illustrate the principles I'm suggesting.
And BTW the way I'm not implying you're self-centered and should adjust your ways. In fact I think you have a very string spiritual base and quite a good heart.
Best to you in 2012.
25's post was amazing as per usual. So much to chew on in there. Really saw a lot of my H in and I in there, though it was supposed to be WAW.
What stuck to me the most was
"you've been tougher to live with and harder on her than you ever though you could be.."
This is something I am really trying to digest & own in my relationship. I know this must be the case if my H is will to break our kids hearts
But 2tp I really see you as a changed man and wonderful dad. I do believe she will wake up and see that. The dedication you have to seeing your kids all the time is not easy and every mother gets a little mushy thinking of that.
2tp,
The one thing you can control in all of this is that you end up like 25's FIL -- that you GET IT and not repeat the same mistakes in your future relationships that you did in your past marriage with your W.
You cannot pressure your W to come back or win her over. You need to live the reality that she will not come back, because that is where she is (at the moment). You cannot force her to notice your changes or, more importantly, to trust that they are real and lasting, ESPECIALLY while she is in an A.
That's why your changes shouldn't be for her. They really should be for yourself, simply because it is the right way to live with yourself and with others. She doesn't want them to be for her anyway at this point -- you are too late, from her point of view, it's a slap in the face to her that you only change now after all she had to endure before turning away.
The more you detach yourself from what she is doing and remove yourself from what she is doing, the better off you will be. And I don't mean in an ostrich, waiting around, hoping for her sort of way. Again, it seems so counter-intuitive, but the more you accept that your marriage with her is over, the faster you (and she) will heal. If she has bits of love left for you, she will only notice them when you aren't there and then come looking for you.
And you need to be revitalizing yourself either way.
WOW! So many amazing things posted by very wise people. I could replace 'her' with 'him' in 25's post to reflect my H's thoughts towards our M.
Bustorama- had a good insight: "it's a slap in the face that you only change now after all she had to endure". I think so many of us are guilty of this, whether it was a W or H that walked away. An if our spouses are feeling 'slapped' then it shouldn't surprise us that they aren't turning around quickly. (if you look at 25's and busto's timeline.... their M were recovered over a *year*.... we've got a long road ahead of us)
2theP- I have followed your posts for a while and have commented a few times, but I continued to be impressed by your strong foundation of faith and continued determination to be a role-model for your kids. You have also been able to be conscious of your interactions with W, instead of just reacting... this is a huge step in the right direction (exampled recently by your reaction to her comment while you were sitting on the couch.) And just to bring focus to what you already said, she never would have laid next to you 3 months ago, nor would you have said (what you said) 3 months ago.... you've already come a long way in a short time... just focus on these 'smaller accomplishments' because they will all add up to your desired goal of her coming back.
You are becoming a man that only a fool would leave.
25 - thank you for the lengthy post on WAW's. It certainly has given me much to consider. The examples you provided are helpful for putting things into their proper context which is something I need to help me digest and assess how I can make use of the information provided.
"2, and others, hope this helps. I can sum it up by saying that if you can muster up some real empathy for your wives and how they got where they are now
you'll be better able to see why YOU MUST BE MORE PATIENT THAN YOU EVER THOUGHT YOU COULD BE
b/c if your wife feels like this ^^^ wife did,
you've been tougher to live with and harder on her than you ever though you could be..."
I get the part about having empathy for my W for enduring what must have been very painful. I do and will continue to have that empathy for her. To be honest though, I also resent the fact that my W couldn't bring herself to suggest we seek MC or some other joint therapy to understand and work on our R problems. Neither one of us was ever good at communicating so perhaps this is why we never got to that point.
It still hurts like hell though knowing that had she done that or had I seen the issues for what they are and taken my own action, we might be in a different place than we are now.
FWIW, I don't think that my R with my W was anywhere near as toxic as the WAW's account you quoted above. I'm not saying she was necessarily unjustified in her decision, but clearly her A with the OM played a HUGE role in her decision to end the M without first seeking MC.
Hey 2- I have been having my doubts lately as well. Little different sitch as my WAW moved out 5 months ago. As you know we have 3 kids and get along fairly well most of the time. We spend time together (w/ kids, not alone) and see each other almost daily. I still feel like she only wants to be friends and maybe she feels she tried everything prior to moving out (I don't agree) but we have yet to have a R talk and I will not bring it up.
All we can do is keep doing our best and try to find what works in reaching our long term goal. I have been all over the map in thinking she still has feelings, she doesn't, not even thinking I want to be with who she is now, etc.. You and I both seem willing to put our best foot forward for ourselves and our kids and until you feel you can no longer move forward have faith, however small, that things will work out as they should.
In any event, no matter what happens, in taking the high road and doing all we can we will have peace of mind at the end of this road,or roller-coaster ride, however long it is.
Best!!
Purgatory I appreciate your comments and words of encouragement. I agree that I have received a tremendous amount of information from people I respect and I hope that I can implement those ideas into my life that will make me a better person, father and possibly husband.
"I have followed your posts for a while and have commented a few times, but I continued to be impressed by your strong foundation of faith and continued determination to be a role-model for your kids. You have also been able to be conscious of your interactions with W, instead of just reacting... this is a huge step in the right direction (exampled recently by your reaction to her comment while you were sitting on the couch.) And just to bring focus to what you already said, she never would have laid next to you 3 months ago, nor would you have said (what you said) 3 months ago...."This one has me a little confused. I don't recall this coming up in my posts. Perhaps I was quoting someone else and added my comments/perspective to their thread?
Anyway, thanks again for your comments and encouragement! Now I need to respond to the others who posted.
Rickb - Thanks for your thoughtful post. I'm still considering what to do abut the depression. I will seek a professional opinion but how I manage it if there is in fact depression is still to be determined. The yoga thing is a good idea. My friend sent me a yoga DVD for my birthday that I haven't opened yet but will this week. So, thanks for the reminder.
Regarding the other part of your post, in a nutshell I think what you are saying is that the selfish behaviors that permeated my M and yours have to be replaced by more thoughtful and loving attention to our spouses. And, when this shift occurs, it is then that our W's may begin to react in a more positive way towards us.
I agree with the concept. However, I think that we also have to be careful not to take this to an extreme where our W's then interpret our actions incorrectly and we become doormats or taken for granted or viewed as weak, etc. It is a delicate balance and we need to be careful that over time we don't start to build our own resentments.
So, I've got to find that balance while also detaching, and GAL, and maintaining my 180's, and so on, and so on, and so on...
Oh joy!
Busto - Thanks as always for your posts.
"You cannot pressure your W to come back or win her over. You need to live the reality that she will not come back..."
Yep, I get this. No pressure. And, I am not applying any pressure. I'm eternally hopeful, but I am not applying any pressure.
"That's why your changes shouldn't be for her. They really should be for yourself, simply because it is the right way to live with yourself and with others. She doesn't want them to be for her anyway at this point -- you are too late, from her point of view, it's a slap in the face to her that you only change now after all she had to endure before turning away."
This explains why she reacted so negatively shortly after she dropped the bomb and I went into full 180 mode. She got really angry, like where the "F" have you been for the last X years? I didn't understand it at the time as evidenced by the title of my original threads, but I do now!
"The more you detach yourself from what she is doing and remove yourself from what she is doing, the better off you will be. And I don't mean in an ostrich, waiting around, hoping for her sort of way. Again, it seems so counter-intuitive, but the more you accept that your marriage with her is over, the faster you (and she) will heal. If she has bits of love left for you, she will only notice them when you aren't there and then come looking for you."
I think this is where a lot of people in our sitch struggle. The thought that the M is truly over is such a crushing realization of defeat that it is almost impossible to accept. Almost impossible.... I understand! I see what you are saying.
The M is over (at least the old one) so now it is time to pull up the boot straps and move on, for me. Not for her! Maybe she'll look back, maybe she won't. Move on nonetheless. Or the alternative is I can wallow in my despair and never ever have a chance of R with her or anyone else for that matter. Got it!!
Thanks for the clips. I have not seen that movie but may see if I can find t. Too funny, "they know not to come back until you REALLY forget."
Kind of reminds me of Adele's "Someone Like You" -
"I heard that you're settled down
That you found a girl and you're married now.
I heard that your dreams came true.
Guess she gave you things I didn't give to you....."
"I hate to turn up out of the blue uninvited
But I couldn't stay away, I couldn't fight it.
I had hoped you'd see my face and that you'd be reminded
That for me it isn't over....."
As you know we have 3 kids and get along fairly well most of the time. We spend time together (w/ kids, not alone) and see each other almost daily. I still feel like she only wants to be friends and maybe she feels she tried everything prior to moving out (I don't agree) but we have yet to have a R talk and I will not bring it up.
Well it may be that you will need to develop a strong friendship before you can advance to a more intimate relationship again with your W. At least that is what I've read here and elsewhere.
I agree putting our best foot forward for ourselves and our children will pay dividends in the future. Some how, some way.
It's a double-edged sword too... other folks have suggested that what woman wants an M with their "best friend". You don't have sex with your friends (usually I suppose)
At the same time, with kids in the picture, they benefit from mom and dad getting along. That's all they really want. Life for a kid is through their needs and their focus; they are kids after all and haven't developed the sense of others yet. So mom and dad being able to co-exist in the same space (if even only for a soccer game or a concert) is really important to them. It means that, while the world is not as stable as they thought, it isn't as crazy as it might be.
It's like you have to take the Faustian bargain. Do you exist as "friends" with your XW to make life better on your kids though it may negatively impact reconciliation? Or do you go mega-dark and shut her out, and move on knowing that it will hurt the kids but increase the chance of recon which is best for everyone?
Or do you take the middle-of-the-road and try to find a way to be dark, shut her out, and move on whilst still being engaged, friendly, and keeping the road home paved and smooth.
Confusing.
Purgatory I appreciate your comments and words of encouragement. I agree that I have received a tremendous amount of information from people I respect and I hope that I can implement those ideas into my life that will make me a better person, father and possibly husband.
"I have followed your posts for a while and have commented a few times, but I continued to be impressed by your strong foundation of faith and continued determination to be a role-model for your kids. You have also been able to be conscious of your interactions with W, instead of just reacting... this is a huge step in the right direction (exampled recently by your reaction to her comment while you were sitting on the couch.) And just to bring focus to what you already said, she never would have laid next to you 3 months ago, nor would you have said (what you said) 3 months ago...."This one has me a little confused. I don't recall this coming up in my posts. Perhaps I was quoting someone else and added my comments/perspective to their thread?
Anyway, thanks again for your comments and encouragement! Now I need to respond to the others who posted.
_________________________________________________
Rick here - Ha-ha. That was me and my W on the couch. I was telling 2TP about it.
I realized that after I posted... sorry
Busto - there's something awesome about getting videos along with the postings!
Rickb - Thanks for your thoughtful post. I'm still considering what to do abut the depression. I will seek a professional opinion but how I manage it if there is in fact depression is still to be determined. The yoga thing is a good idea. My friend sent me a yoga DVD for my birthday that I haven't opened yet but will this week. So, thanks for the reminder.
Regarding the other part of your post, in a nutshell I think what you are saying is that the selfish behaviors that permeated my M and yours have to be replaced by more thoughtful and loving attention to our spouses. And, when this shift occurs, it is then that our W's may begin to react in a more positive way towards us.
I agree with the concept. However, I think that we also have to be careful not to take this to an extreme where our W's then interpret our actions incorrectly and we become doormats or taken for granted or viewed as weak, etc. It is a delicate balance and we need to be careful that over time we don't start to build our own resentments.
So, I've got to find that balance while also detaching, and GAL, and maintaining my 180's, and so on, and so on, and so on...
Oh joy!
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Rick here - I guess I will say that your focus on your soul, your son, your W, your improvements, your DB plan...all of it in no way makes you a doormat. If you can detach and you give her what she needs, and go about being the great man that you are then I don't think she will see a doormat.
I had this same test today. We were supposed to go to an art museum in Boston today. As the day moves on I realize that she is really into decorating the house post-Xmas, listening to Adele (god, how depressing!) music all day, and basically in her own world, which she needs so much right now.... some time at home just thinking, reconnecting to our home.
She said to me that she really needs to do what she's doing right now. I said sure, the museums will still be there... don't worry about it, and happily walked away to do other stuff. Was I a doormat, or strong enough to see beyond the surface and understand her needs? I see you being strong for your W and kids over and over again!
WHG,
Your 'middle-of-the-road' description is spot on. But it's so hard to pull off....
Rick - I know we have similar situations but now we are sitting on each others couches? LOL!!
Sorry Purgatory, I just couldn't hold back the chuckle!
I believe detaching and going dark are two very different things.
2tp, for what its worth you have done an amazing job doing 180 and GALing but I think the one thing your strategy is lacking is mystery. I think you need to work on making her jealous perhaps by dating or spending time with other woman.
I think your W knows she can have you back when she snaps her fingers I think she needs to believe she cant have you & not by going dark (cause you have 2 kids). Are you up for going on a date?? or maybe even just spending more time with a female friend will work??
Even though I dont think in your sitch you should go dark, you should stop helping out around the house, let her deal with the mess.
Another idea I had for you was to take your sons on a mini vacation, maybe camping. Or an overnight in a nearby city, stay at a hotel which kids love, catch a sporting event. Your kids are going to be your loudest voice, they will tell your W everything that DB tells you not to say. I cant imagine a woman not second guessing herself when her kids are fighting for the M.
JUst some ideas take em or not. I'm rooting for you and believe your W would be insane not to take you back.
Even though I dont think in your sitch you should go dark, you should stop helping out around the house, let her deal with the mess.
2TP... I know the above is hard but you have to do it. For myself I know I will have to fight it too. When I am at W's house with the kids while she's working in the evenings I will want to pick up, clean, do laundry... because I'm a fixer and a "nice guy". But it's not my house and not my problem.
I've already started to work my head around this... I feel it is ok to enforce house rules... so if the kids have chores then you make sure they're done if you're watching them and they are supposed to do them. If you want to help your kids with the chores that is certainly your choice. But just doing stuff unrequested (or even requested) isn't good.
I believe when we get to this point in my sitch I will try to have the kids at my house as much as possible to avoid the temptation to "fix". But even with that there will be times... like from bedtime to when W gets back from work that I will be tempted to "help around the house." But it's not my house and it isn't yours either... she wants to be a single woman... let her be one.
To be honest though, I also resent the fact that my W couldn't bring herself to suggest we seek MC or some other joint therapy to understand and work on our R problems. Neither one of us was ever good at communicating so perhaps this is why we never got to that point.
Sometimes in these cases it is true that the WAS seems to not have asserted him/herself and let his/her unhappiness be known. Not communicated when THEIR boundaries were being trampled across by the LBS. Other times the WAS feels that they did express their unhappiness or wish for things to be different -- sometimes in many ways. But the LBS didn't listen, or put their own needs first, or argued for the 'logical' way. And the WAS felt more and more invalidated and uncared for. And then shut down.
Take a hard inventory of yourself to see if there were ways you could have listened better or set up a safer, more responsive and validating setting in which she really could tell you how she felt and what she wanted or needed from you. I'm not suggesting you take all the blame -- she could have made different choices, asserted herself more loudly, persistently or forcefully, perhaps -- but be sure you are minding your side of the fence and not pointing to her side of the fence, when there are still things you might be able to fancy up ur side.
It still hurts like hell though knowing that had she done that or had I seen the issues for what they are and taken my own action, we might be in a different place than we are now.
Yes it does. Learn from the hurt. And move forward with it.
her A with the OM played a HUGE role in her decision to end the M without first seeking MC.
Perhaps. You don't really know this. Her love tank for you and the way you were pre-bomb may have been so empty by the time that OM came by that she had no desire to repair a M with you. Why would you want to repair a M with someone who kept breaking your heart?
Even though I dont think in your sitch you should go dark, you should stop helping out around the house, let her deal with the mess.
2TP... I know the above is hard but you have to do it.
The stopping helping is true. You definitely do not want to VOLUNTEER to do things for her. That is giving yourself away, plan doormat, etc. How many of your other exes are you calling and suggesting you do things for them? Ease their load so they have more time to relax and think about their current love interest?
In my sitch, I was counseled to only do things that involved the kids (and later as I got darker with WAS, that were emergencies for the kids). I tried to be helper man for the early part of my sitch. It eased tensions between us, but didn't bring us back together and never would have, I think. She feels no loss for you or consequences for her choices while this is happening.
If she asks you to do something, this is why it is important that you are busy busy busy with your new life. You can say something like (with flirting humor if you can), Hon (W, whatever), I'd love to help you, I gotta admit you have been looking good lately. But, you fired me as your husband a few months ago. I don't think anything has changed, right? And I've gotta go XXXX right now.
I believe detaching and going dark are two very different things.
Yes, it is absolutely essential that you detach. It is quite possible to have contact with her, but be detached emotionally from her choices and actions.
The going dark, if you do it, would be for you -- not as a tool to get her back. For example, you go dark to protect yourself and your emotions because it is too hard for you to have contact with her or because she is constantly crossing your boundaries by her behavior towards you. I had to go dark in my situation simply because I could no longer accept the way she was treating me, it was crossing my boundaries of how I wanted to be treated by my W, of any love interest of mine, or of any person that valued me and cared for me. So, I cut her out of my life.
2tp, for what its worth you have done an amazing job doing 180 and GALing but I think the one thing your strategy is lacking is mystery.
I don't know where you are on the dating perspective, but even if you do not want to go there, it often IS a good idea to spend time with the fairer sex -- whether it be in group settings or meeting people out with guy friends, whatever. It does an ego good to get out there and realize that other people do find you interesting or desirable, and it is good practice for flirting. I met and hung out with lots of women in the context of my GAL, but never dated. It boosted my self-confidence, polished my mojo and, I didn't realize it at the time, but my W noticed, she kept talking about this one friend of mine that was a girl that I talked to. When I went off for my college reunion, I think my W was worried I was going to get together with an old flame.
Another idea I had for you was to take your sons on a mini vacation, maybe camping. Or an overnight in a nearby city, stay at a hotel which kids love, catch a sporting event.
You totally should do this, regardless of what effect it has on your W. Spend time with the boys and get out and do new and fun things with them!
Again, it seems so counter-intuitive, but the more you accept that your marriage with her is over, the faster you (and she) will heal. If she has bits of love left for you, she will only notice them when you aren't there and then come looking for you."
I think this is where a lot of people in our sitch struggle. The thought that the M is truly over is such a crushing realization of defeat that it is almost impossible to accept. Almost impossible....
Yes, it is often the hardest and, I think, the most important part to accept. Accepting it as your reality will guarantee your success -- either without her in a new life or with her in a second M if she tries to stop you from moving on. This is the essence of the LRT -- that your partner thinks you are moving on and no longer waiting for them. Your (old) M is over. Whichever fork you end on from here, you need to revitalize yourself.
"Even though I dont think in your sitch you should go dark, you should stop helping out around the house, let her deal with the mess."
Uh, I guess then I should own up to the fact that I saw the trash was full this morning when I stopped by to walk S10 to the bus stop and took out the trash. Or, that I stopped by this afternoon to train S13 how to clean the pool and decided to also take down the Christmas decorations inside the house.
"The stopping helping is true. You definitely do not want to VOLUNTEER to do things for her. That is giving yourself away, plan doormat, etc. How many of your other exes are you calling and suggesting you do things for them? Ease their load so they have more time to relax and think about their current love interest?"
OK, I need to stop this, I know! FWIW - W didn't ask me to do any of this though. The trash needed to be emptied and I was there. And with regard to the decorations, I think it pissed her off that the boys and I had put them up when she was away on her last OM rendezvous. So the least I could do was take them down.
Oddly enough, W actually started to help me with the decorations and we also had a few light moments reminiscing about when/where certain tree ornaments came from. I thanked her for the help and she thanked me as well.
One interesting moment and maybe a 180 was when she said she wanted to throw out some stocking hangers. My first response was "why, their cute and still in good shape?" So she set them down.
A few minutes later I picked them up and walked them over to the trash just as W happened to be walking by so she clearly saw what I was doing. This was not planned. I just stopped and considered whether or not this was something so important that I just had to have my way and decided that the answer was no.
But... I see that I still have a lot of work to do in the way of detaching. And I agree that I am not at all mysterious. Hell, I'm practically an open book. Always have been, even before the bomb. It is so damned hard, but I will do better.
I just want to say that although I do things for my W, it usually isn't because she asks me and I do them with zero expectation that W cares, acknowledges my actions or that it does anything to soften her heart in any way.
Busto - I like your flirty idea. I've got to try tat sometime.
Bklyn - I appreciate the idea about dating but I don't think that is a good idea right now. I'm still looking for work to supplement my sporadic and meager income from my real estate investment business. So I'm not exactly a great catch at the moment, besides I'm still too damned hurt by my sitch to even contemplate going out on the date.
I'll just have to find other ways to detach and become mysterious.
"You totally should do this, regardless of what effect it has on your W. Spend time with the boys and get out and do new and fun things with them!"
This is in response to both Bklyn and Busto - I actually have been doing things with the boys. For example, last Friday the boys and I went to meet a cousin of mine who I haven't seen in 20 years. She has 2 girls that are near in age to my boys so they got to meet their new cousins. We met half way between our respective cities and made a day of it.
We had lunch, played on some old trains, took pictures, reminisced about old times, family, etc. All the while the boys and girls had a blast playing hide and seek at the playground.
On the drive back, we stopped by a friends house who I haven't seen since July and then we went out to dinner with his family.
On Wednesday S10 and I are going to see a professional basketball game. So I have that to look forward to. Also, my sons have been attending church services with me. Mostly S10, but S13 also joined us on Christmas eve. We also need to start planing for our annual California camping/fishing trip.
Anyway, I feel like I am doing plenty of things with the boys while also looking for things to do on my own or with friends.
Busto said:
Sometimes in these cases it is true that the WAS seems to not have asserted him/herself and let his/her unhappiness be known. Not communicated when THEIR boundaries were being trampled across by the LBS. Other times the WAS feels that they did express their unhappiness or wish for things to be different -- sometimes in many ways. But the LBS didn't listen, or put their own needs first, or argued for the 'logical' way. And the WAS felt more and more invalidated and uncared for. And then shut down.
Take a hard inventory of yourself to see if there were ways you could have listened better or set up a safer, more responsive and validating setting in which she really could tell you how she felt and what she wanted or needed from you. I'm not suggesting you take all the blame -- she could have made different choices, asserted herself more loudly, persistently or forcefully, perhaps -- but be sure you are minding your side of the fence and not pointing to her side of the fence, when there are still things you might be able to fancy up ur side.
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Rick here - this is such good advise. I felt the same thing as 2TP, and it took a long while for me to understand/accept my role in the bomb drop.
There's a chapter in How to Fix Your Marriage Without Talking About It called Stepping In the Puddle (or something like that) that does a great job talking about this. It really helped me understand how I didn't listen and engage my w even though I thought I did.
There's a chapter in How to Fix Your Marriage Without Talking About It called Stepping In the Puddle (or something like that) that does a great job talking about this. It really helped me understand how I didn't listen and engage my w even though I thought I did.
WHG - who is the author? I should read this book.
Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
I think this is where a lot of people in our sitch struggle. The thought that the M is truly over is such a crushing realization of defeat that it is almost impossible to accept. Almost impossible....
Originally Posted By: Bustorama
Yes, it is often the hardest and, I think, the most important part to accept. Accepting it as your reality will guarantee your success -- either without her in a new life or with her in a second M if she tries to stop you from moving on. This is the essence of the LRT -- that your partner thinks you are moving on and no longer waiting for them. Your (old) M is over. Whichever fork you end on from here, you need to revitalize yourself.
OK, so we've talked a lot about Detaching, 180's, GAL, PMA, etc. Since Busto has raised the concept of the LRT, I'd like to shift the focus on this as I think this is now where I may be at with my W and my sitch. Or.... have I ot done enough detaching yet to move to the LRT?
I think I am beginning to understanding detachment which is to disengage from any emotional connection you have to the WAS. Successfully implemented, the LBS is no longer emotionally affected by actions that the WAS may take towards the LBS.
So how is detaching different from the LRT? Is detaching simply disengaging emotionally from the person while LRT is actually disengaging from the M?
If my definition is correct, then holy crap! If we thought detachment was tough, then the LRT must be really, really tough!
It seems to me that detaching is more of a strategy to help deal with the pain of a broken R and a tool to possibly win back your S by drawing them closer to you. LRT on the other hand seems like an acceptance of the loss of the M and basically saying so long W, I'm outta here!
How does one know when the time is right for the LRT? Isn't there danger of irreparable harm if implemented too soon in the process?
Now that I think about it I guess we have to come to the realization that the "irreparable harm" already occurred with the demise of the M and accept that reality and know that if there is a reconciliation it will be in a new M and not the old one.
Anyone care to shed some light on this?
Great questions 2TP, I'm very interested in others responses. My interpretation of detaching from reading DR and these boards is to detach emotionially from anything your WAS does. Not sure what the actual basis behind it is but I also feel it is a strategy to prevent us LBS's from more pain or from over-reacting to things our WAS's do.
Their is such gray area in all this that it can be downright maddening! I see my WAW almost daily and want to be there in the moment to connect but also want to detach so I'm not hurt by her actions. I think the LRT is a strategy to provoke the WAS to see that we have essentially moved on and are ok w/o them and hopefully that may cause them a slight change in heart.
2TP - SIAS ^^^^^ may be correct. The endless internal debate over this can sometimes be so tiring. I would like to sleep for at least a year.
I think that in the end, you detach because you need to evaluate yourself in the light of truth without dependency on your W's actions, and you need to let them go to find their truth. Otherwise both of you probably never find the real truth behind both of your hearts and minds. Whatother way can there be for a new M to start that is fulfilling for both of you?
I think LRT is simply really the same thing....you accept the reality of the sitch.....you figure out your life, you take this opportunity to rediscover yourself...you improve where you need to...you let your W do the same.
I just think the endless wrangling over the terms of DB'ing can turn your thoughts to spaghetti. I think if you follow your heart, soul and the divine you are always on the right path. But, the good news is you don't have to do it alone because we are all here to bounce ideas off each other.
Had a very vivid dream last night. I usually forget them shortly after waking but this one is sticking with me.
In my dream my W and I are walking together in an unfamiliar office building and at some point my W and I are seperated, though she is somewhere nearby. Then my W's T and I are walking together and we are having a discussion about cats.
Apparently there are people in this office who keep cats and W's T is asking why we don't keep one in the office as well.
In this dream I'm explaining that certain parts of the office it is probably ok to have cats but in the area I work in (Oh! I apparently have a job in this dream :)) they are not permitted.
For some reason we start arguing about whether a certain person who has a cat works in the area where they are permitted or not. The T is adament that cats are ok everywhere and I am taking the opposite position.
The discussion turns markedly hostile and I am visibly agitated about the discussion. At some point my W comes back into the picture and I am explaining what is going on.
Then the alarm wakes me up.
So what to make of this dream?
Dreams that I remember typically are about non specific themes or people. They usually don't involve people that are front and center in my life.
So as I think about what meaning this dream has, the only thing I can think of is the concept of conflict and always needing to be right (cats aren't permitted vs. yes they are) and the suspicion I have about my W's T not being M friendly and possibly guiding my W away from working on our Marriage.
The interesting thing is that I can't think of any recent triggering events that would have caused me to have this dream. Anyway, I'm glad I remembered this dream and got in down in type.
New day, new opportunities!
Well, this may not be helpful to your question, but I knew it was time to go to the LRT when my DB coach suggested it.
BUT, having said that, after he did so he took a moment to explain a couple of the things that just might be going on in her head, and with that basis, the LRT both made sense, and made it EASIER to emotionally detach. When put in the context of that technique, the necessity of detaching was much clearer to me and the why's and wherefore's made a little more sense.
"Another theory uses a computer metaphor to account for dreams. According to this theory, dreams serve to 'clean up' clutter from the mind, much like clean-up operations in a computer, refreshing the mind to prepare for the next day"
2tp there are many theories about dreams. I like this one^^^^^. It may explain why you were confronting yourself.
2TP--I love looking my dreams up in dreammoods.com
2TP - So as I think about what meaning this dream has, the only thing I can think of is the concept of conflict and always needing to be right (cats aren't permitted vs. yes they are
Rick said - this is exactly what I was thinking as I was reading your post. Is that something you feel you need to work on for yourself? If so, maybe this dream reflects that.
As fas a the T being a threat to your M...I have heard that if the patient is there for their own problems...not necessarily about the M itself... then the T will focus only on the individual patient and their issues....but that they don't tell the patient or give orders that the patient should do or not do this or that. They just help the patient uncover the true issues inside of them....then draw the patient out so that they can get answers for themselves.
I used to worry that my wife's psychiatrist would try to break up our M so that she would be happier, so I understand your anxiety. It doesn't work that way though.
OK, so we've talked a lot about Detaching, 180's, GAL, PMA, etc. Since Busto has raised the concept of the LRT, I'd like to shift the focus on this as I think this is now where I may be at with my W and my sitch. Or.... have I ot done enough detaching yet to move to the LRT?
Divorce Remedy and Michelle Weiner-Davis' blog indicate that the LRT should be implemented IMMEDIATELY if any of the below are true:
1) Your spouse has said to you in no uncertain terms that s/he wants to get a divorce and it appears as if s/he really means it. It wasn’t just said in the heat of battle.
2) You and your spouse are separated physically.
3) You and your spouse still live together but have very little to do with each other. You may be sleeping in separate rooms, have virtually no communication, and little or no sexual contact.
4) Your spouse has filed for divorce
Your situation is certainly at #2. Many people that come to this board are at a point that meet MWD's criteria of time to LRT, but many do not implement it right away because it is difficult to accept the reality of the situation.
Concretely, the LRT, interpreted by me, is:
1) Step 1 – Stop ALL pursuit/relationship behaviorI would include in this ALL behavior that suggests in any way that the two of you are in an R or M (and certainly includes emotional detachment).
STOP INITIATING:
Phone calls/texts/letters/emails
R talks of any kind
Discussion of R/M
When you are in same place as the WAS, do not initiate following them around, be busy with yourself and watch them approach you
Future/planning talk
Contact with mate's family/friends that in any way is about R
Giving gifts/flowers
Giving compliments/words of affirmation
Giving acts of service (taking out trash, etc.)
Trying to schedule dates or alone time
Spying on what spouse is doing
You are stopping all pursuit/relationship behavior, including stopping meeting any of their emotional needs through their love languages. This is you accepting their assertion they do not want to live with and/or be with you as a couple. Treat them the same way you treat an ex that you are still on good terms with.
Step 2 - GAL/Move on- Revitalize and rediscover yourself as an individual/parent/friend/family member/etc.
- In a life that does not include your WAS
- Work under the premise that your WAS did not exist in your life, what would you do/who would you be? Who were you and what did you like to do before you first met WAS? What would you like to improve about yourself?
- Within this are 180's, PMA, self-mojo, self-confidence
The basic idea is your WAS has already (partly?) detached from you. You need to accept this detachment and detach from the WAS even more than they have detached from you. You weren't so focused on her loss and the loss of the R/M until you became aware of the fact that she was detached from you. That's what drew you into all this approach behavior and thinking towards her -- you perceived the vacuum where you previously expected her to be and you moved to fill it.
It's only if your WAS experiences the same vacuum for where YOU used to be (aspects of you that she is still taking for granted) that you have any chance of turning things around. The reality is she may not miss you, but she certainly has not missed you so far with the way things have been going and you still doing little acts of service for her. And, at the bottom of everything, it is accepting what she says she wants. Where not accepting that is what got many of us into trouble in the first place.
It seems so counter-intuitive, but you may find her start to call more, or email more, or text more. Looking for contact with you as you accept what she's telling you, that she no longer wants to be with you as your W.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/blog/how-to-prevent-a-divorce-the-last-resort-technique/
Note that going dark is different from LRT in that in going dark you also stop RESPONDING to their attempts to contact you. I ended up going there in my sitch. Yes, both LRT and going dark are emotionally trying.
My situation turned around when I had the confidence to flirt with my W in the same conversation that I was telling her I was drawing up papers to divorce her. For me, it was a tightrope of self-confidence while pulling away.
Some on here previously have compared it to the banter of old Cary Grant videos.
Busto - Thanks as always for the thoughtful post. This is really helpful for me to see this in writing and to wrap my mind around the concept of LRT. A lot of these techniques seem to be similar or bleed into each other so I find it a little challenging to decipher where one technique stops and another starts. I found the check list to be helpful as it helps me to see where I am hitting the mark and where I am still struggling.
Concretely, the LRT, interpreted by me, is:
1) Step 1 – Stop ALL pursuit/relationship behavior
I would include in this ALL behavior that suggests in any way that the two of you are in an R or M (and certainly includes emotional detachment).
STOP INITIATING:
Phone calls/texts/letters/emails - no calls or emails from me but some texts only related to children
R talks of any kind - none
Discussion of R/M - none
When you are in same place as the WAS, do not initiate following them around, be busy with yourself and watch them approach you - check
Future/planning talk - none
Contact with mate's family/friends that in any way is about R - none, although SIL calls occasionally to check on me
Giving gifts/flowers - none
Giving compliments/words of affirmation - occasionally, this is W's secondary LL
Giving acts of service (taking out trash, etc.) - this is W's LL so it is hard not to want to make up for my lack of attention in this area
Trying to schedule dates or alone time - none
Spying on what spouse is doing - none
"The basic idea is your WAS has already (partly?) detached from you. You need to accept this detachment and detach from the WAS even more than they have detached from you. You weren't so focused on her loss and the loss of the R/M until you became aware of the fact that she was detached from you. That's what drew you into all this approach behavior and thinking towards her -- you perceived the vacuum where you previously expected her to be and you moved to fill it."
True and very insightful!
"It's only if your WAS experiences the same vacuum for where YOU used to be (aspects of you that she is still taking for granted) that you have any chance of turning things around. The reality is she may not miss you, but she certainly has not missed you so far with the way things have been going and you still doing little acts of service for her. And, at the bottom of everything, it is accepting what she says she wants. Where not accepting that is what got many of us into trouble in the first place."
This is so spot on! Although I'd like to think I'm am at this stage, truthfully I don't think I am emotionally ready for this yet.
Something else I found helpful was this snippet from a post by Jack Three Beans on one of Denver's threads:
J3B - My on-line gaming addiction is what lead to my neglect of my wife. I ignored her. Later when I LRTed, I ignored her as well. How was it different?
On the surface? If you just look at the ignoring part...nothing.
But, I no longer played computer games. I worked out, when I was around her prior to the LRT I was as fun, and kind as I could be, I GALed, I proved I wanted her but did't need her, I showed her many of my changes.
When I LRTed, I took all of that away. All of it. I interacted strictly on a business level, regarding our boys and our bills. I was not mean, I was not nice.
Previous to this, I ignored her because of my failing.
Afterwards, I ignored her because of hers.
In the middle I showed her that I had changed.
All the things J3B did in the "middle", I think I need more time with. I don't think enough time has passed with my various 180's and changes for my W to believe they are solid and lasting. It would seem to be a little dangerous to completely disengage before more of that had a chance to solidify. I'm not suggesting I am in need of validation from my W or that I'm waving my arms saying look at me! I just think I need to show more of the changes before unleashing the LRT.
My own timeline is pretty similar to Jack's. I neglected the hell out of my wife. I changed and acted lovingly towards her for several months. Tensions stopped, but no reciprocation or return to relationship. I then actively ignored her because of HER neglect of me and the M.
There is another marriage repair approach (Harley's Marriage Builders) that advocates a Plan A, Plan B which is substantively very similar to the above.
There is debate my many whether Plan A/filling love tank/showing change is necessary or whether the part that has an effect on the spouse is the LRT/Plan B/pulling away. And, if it is necessary, for how long it should go on (because the LBS can develop feelings of resentment, be viewed as doormat/valueless). For LBS men, I've seen things in the 1-6 month range suggested, for LBS women, typically much shorter (up to 1 month). In my own sitch, I think I may have kept it up too long, because I was starting to feel resentment by the time I shut down (ca. 7-8 months).
Well in my sitch, the tensions have clearly stopped, especially after I moved out. Although for the 2 months post bomb but before I moved out, I was DB'ng like crazy and we didn't have any curt words or fights during that entire period. However, my W was an emotional wreck and just had to have me out due to her feelings of guilt which I suppose created their own tension.
Since then though, no tension and we seem to get along fairly well or as well as 2 detached people can be I suppose, (W is clearly detached emotionally). The other wrinkle in my sitch of course is my W's A with the OM. I think that until that dies down, I don't have a chance. At least that is how I see it.
"For LBS men, I've seen things in the 1-6 month range suggested, for LBS women, typically much shorter (up to 1 month). In my own sitch, I think I may have kept it up too long, because I was starting to feel resentment by the time I shut down (ca. 7-8 months)."
God, how pathetic is it that LBS men seem to have to work so much harder or at least longer to win back their spouses than LBS women. I wonder why that is. It would seem that the hurt is just as deep for both genders.
So you are saying that you were in LRT-land for 7-8 months or that is how long your entire crisis lasted before you started to piece things back together?
[quote=2thepoint]"For LBS men, I've seen things in the 1-6 month range suggested, for LBS women, typically much shorter (up to 1 month). In my own sitch, I think I may have kept it up too long, because I was starting to feel resentment by the time I shut down (ca. 7-8 months)."
God, how pathetic is it that LBS men seem to have to work so much harder or at least longer to win back their spouses than LBS women. I wonder why that is. It would seem that the hurt is just as deep for both genders.
[quote]
I read SOMEWHERE that women in general tend to spend more time fixated on things that had happened in the past and men can tend to be in the present and/or looking ahead. If that's true, then it would stand to reason that it would take longer for a left behind man to 'win' the walk away wife back, because he has more percieved offenses, transgressions, issues, whathaveyou, on her mind to overcome whereas the walk away husband would be more focused on the present and future - and so presumably more readily convinced that the changes he sees in the left behind wife are 'real.'
So you are saying that you were in LRT-land for 7-8 months or that is how long your entire crisis lasted before you started to piece things back together?
Our crisis had been going on for awhile before she moved out. I didn't discover DB until the time she moved out. I did a weird hybrid of LRT in which I gave her acts of service and words of affirmation towards her whenever she would initiate contact with me for about 7-8 months. She would call me a fair amount to do stuff with her and our kids, but NEVER alone.
At some point, for a variety of reasons, I had had enough, and I told her that the situation wasn't working for me and I would only respond to her if it was for an emergency with the kids. Then I went dark on her for about 3 months. She called me and txted me some during that time, but I wouldn't respond unless it was something urgent about the kids. We saw each other face to face maybe 2x during that period. Then one day that I had to drop the girls off directly with her, I said I wanted to talk about moving forward with our D (right after commenting how good her butt looked in her jeans). She started crying , said it wasn't a good time for her, etc. I said fine, I'd give her a month to get her stuff together and we could talk then. During the intervening month, she really started reaching out to me like crazy, and she said she wanted to try again by the end of that month.
"Then I went dark on her for about 3 months. She called me and txted me some during that time, but I wouldn't respond unless it was something urgent about the kids. We saw each other face to face maybe 2x during that period."So how did you go so dark with the kids involved? Did you have some sort of an informal custody agreement? How did you manage a hand off with the kids without seeing your W? Were you so dark that you went invisable?
"Then one day that I had to drop the girls off directly with her, I said I wanted to talk about moving forward with our D (right after commenting how good her butt looked in her jeans)."F
LOL! How long did you practice that before working up the courage to say that followed by discussion of D? Was it your intent to elicit the response you received or were you surpriseed by your W's reaction?
OK, so we've talked a lot about Detaching, 180's, GAL, PMA, etc. Since Busto has raised the concept of the LRT, I'd like to shift the focus on this as I think this is now where I may be at with my W and my sitch. Or.... have I ot done enough detaching yet to move to the LRT?
Divorce Remedy and Michelle Weiner-Davis' blog indicate that the LRT should be implemented IMMEDIATELY if any of the below are true:
1) Your spouse has said to you in no uncertain terms that s/he wants to get a divorce and it appears as if s/he really means it. It wasn’t just said in the heat of battle.
2) You and your spouse are separated physically.
3) You and your spouse still live together but have very little to do with each other. You may be sleeping in separate rooms, have virtually no communication, and little or no sexual contact.
4) Your spouse has filed for divorce
Your situation is certainly at #2. Many people that come to this board are at a point that meet MWD's criteria of time to LRT, but many do not implement it right away because it is difficult to accept the reality of the situation.
Concretely, the LRT, interpreted by me, is:
1) Step 1 – Stop ALL pursuit/relationship behaviorI would include in this ALL behavior that suggests in any way that the two of you are in an R or M (and certainly includes emotional detachment).
STOP INITIATING:
Phone calls/texts/letters/emails
R talks of any kind
Discussion of R/M
When you are in same place as the WAS, do not initiate following them around, be busy with yourself and watch them approach you
Future/planning talk
Contact with mate's family/friends that in any way is about R
Giving gifts/flowers
Giving compliments/words of affirmation
Giving acts of service (taking out trash, etc.)
Trying to schedule dates or alone time
Spying on what spouse is doing
You are stopping all pursuit/relationship behavior, including stopping meeting any of their emotional needs through their love languages. This is you accepting their assertion they do not want to live with and/or be with you as a couple. Treat them the same way you treat an ex that you are still on good terms with.
Step 2 - GAL/Move on- Revitalize and rediscover yourself as an individual/parent/friend/family member/etc.
- In a life that does not include your WAS
- Work under the premise that your WAS did not exist in your life, what would you do/who would you be? Who were you and what did you like to do before you first met WAS? What would you like to improve about yourself?
- Within this are 180's, PMA, self-mojo, self-confidence
The basic idea is your WAS has already (partly?) detached from you. You need to accept this detachment and detach from the WAS even more than they have detached from you. You weren't so focused on her loss and the loss of the R/M until you became aware of the fact that she was detached from you. That's what drew you into all this approach behavior and thinking towards her -- you perceived the vacuum where you previously expected her to be and you moved to fill it.
It's only if your WAS experiences the same vacuum for where YOU used to be (aspects of you that she is still taking for granted) that you have any chance of turning things around. The reality is she may not miss you, but she certainly has not missed you so far with the way things have been going and you still doing little acts of service for her. And, at the bottom of everything, it is accepting what she says she wants. Where not accepting that is what got many of us into trouble in the first place.
It seems so counter-intuitive, but you may find her start to call more, or email more, or text more. Looking for contact with you as you accept what she's telling you, that she no longer wants to be with you as your W.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/blog/how-to-prevent-a-divorce-the-last-resort-technique/ Busto - you have me questioning my own judgement. I have heard that we should do what works and that seems to make sense. I was bombed in March ans have seen steady thawing and progress since then but I can't say that I have followed the LRT to the letter although I do fall into category 3 (separate rooms, no sex).
I am not sure if a jump to full LRT would be harmful when soemhow things seem to be going the right way at my W's pace, which I have no doubt that she needs.
Some of you guys seem to be saying that unless ypou do the LRT to the letter you will fail. I'm not sure. I don;t fell pressured by time and I do want to make sure my wife hasvthe chance to figure herself. I have a life, am respective of the distance she needs and for get better every day in detaching, and am not a doormat. You , WHG and a few others have got me thinking about the full court LRT non-press. Confused today.....
In terms of timing, if you read Harley's book...he thinks men can tolerate the affair continuing while the cheating wife continues to cheat and live at home. (Plan A) When it's the husband cheating, he thinks women have a harder time with the cheating and their health can start to decline after 3-4 weeks.
I've now made it about 4 months...so I guess I'm a strong (or insane) woman. However, I did feel like I was at a breaking point about 3-4 weeks into it.
With respect to the LRT, I feel like I've had some gradual warming doing a "light" version of it. My H seems like like a moderate amount of contact and we've had a few R talks that I think have been helpful or at least reminded him I still care.
My H is a weird case, however, in that he's in an A, but can't decide or tell me he actually wants a D. So, I don't neatly fit into the LRT categories above.
In my opinion, affairs are really hard to deal with and I almost think it's impossible to know what will work. Somehow, the A needs to end before you can make much, if any progress. However, I think LRT may help avoid making the relationship worse.
I think a lot of what's listed are guidelines - its something to depart from. For example, we exchanged Christmas gifts even if 'by the letter LRT' says not to, and it seemed to be a positive. I also initiated contact a couple times with regard to her sisters wedding - by the letter you're not supposed to do that either.
I don't think they're commandments that thou shalt not break, but they're guidelines that you would do well to stick to UNLESS your situation creates a compelling reason not to. Thing is, in our position we as individuals often lack the perspective to actually weigh that consideration. So in my case, for example, I asked my DB coach if the gift exchange was a good idea or not.
I think its important to remember that there is no formula, do what works in your sitch. Dont focus on odds and stats. You need to believe in your own power. Do what is working for with your W.
Keep note of what works and keep doing it.
I agree w/ BK, do what works. I have been on again off again and trying to balance detaching and going dark at times and it has been effective at times and not so much at others.
The only way to know how our WAS will react to these strategies is to try them so based on your sitch see which one you not only feel is the best option to bring you closer to your goal but also one in which you are comfortable doing and can be yourself.
All of our sitch's are differnet and have differnt dynamics so trust your gut, keep track, and do what you feel works.
My .02 anyway!
In terms of timing, if you read Harley's book...he thinks men can tolerate the affair continuing while the cheating wife continues to cheat and live at home. (Plan A) When it's the husband cheating, he thinks women have a harder time with the cheating and their health can start to decline after 3-4 weeks.
I've now made it about 4 months...so I guess I'm a strong (or insane) woman. However, I did feel like I was at a breaking point about 3-4 weeks into it.
With respect to the LRT, I feel like I've had some gradual warming doing a "light" version of it. My H seems like like a moderate amount of contact and we've had a few R talks that I think have been helpful or at least reminded him I still care.
My H is a weird case, however, in that he's in an A, but can't decide or tell me he actually wants a D. So, I don't neatly fit into the LRT categories above.
In my opinion, affairs are really hard to deal with and I almost think it's impossible to know what will work. Somehow, the A needs to end before you can make much, if any progress. However, I think LRT may help avoid making the relationship worse.
You may be right about the "light" version of LRT if you are seeing some success, but it must be very tough to guage anything when there's an A going on.
I don't know, soem of the comments I read here make we wonder if what I am doing is actually the best way to approach it all. Going with my gut seems to work.
So how did you go so dark with the kids involved? Did you have some sort of an informal custody agreement? How did you manage a hand off with the kids without seeing your W?
We had a fixed 50/50 custody agreement in which I had girls Tues/Thurs of each week and every other weekend. She had girls Mon/Wed of each week and every other weekend. Transfers happened in the context of pickup/dropoff from school/preschool, so we never had to see each other (unless there was an extenuating circumstance). We also had agreements re:holidays (MLK, President's Day, St. Patty's, Easter). And I setup a calendar on Cozi to facilitate indirect communication and scheduling. Just as if we were divorced.
Were you so dark that you went invisable?
I slipped up one time when she called and left a message crying to tell me she was having a hard time with life. I called her back hoping it was an overture towards reconciliation, but it wasn't. She just wanted me to listen and empathize. I had told her before that I was not ok being her spouse if she did not want to treat me like her spouse, so I reiterated that and got off the phone. Otherwise, she never saw me except at a school Open House, a birthday party for one of our girls, and one time she called when one of our girls needed to be taken to the emergency room (midnight croup). I didn't respond to any of her other calls or texts. She got REALLY pissed off at me initially. Texted me all sorts of nasty names and left nasty msgs on my answering machine. This is an example of how the W's short-term emotional response can be misleading for the long-term health of the R. Things can only be judged over the course of weeks or even a month or two.
"Then one day that I had to drop the girls off directly with her, I said I wanted to talk about moving forward with our D (right after commenting how good her butt looked in her jeans)."
LOL! How long did you practice that before working up the courage to say that followed by discussion of D? Was it your intent to elicit the response you received or were you surpriseed by your W's reaction?
I had been making some comments like that to her before I went dark. In fact, I used to flirt with my W like that all the time when we were first met and were getting together. I had stopped when I was neglecting her. Then, when she first dropped the bomb, I was too scared to do anything like that with her. Scared of the consequences if she didn't want it, scared of being rejected or being met by her anger. But, then I gained more confidence in the course of my GAL when other women flirted with me. And it became less of a big deal to me if she rejected the flirting. It's sort of like when you are a single guy, you flirt and the consequences of being rejected don't seem so bad. It's like whatever, there are other women out there. And somehow that confidence or carefree attitude makes you more attractive than the guy that is terrified whether his interest will be reciprocated.
I had no intention/expectation when I said it, other than to flirt with her. I noticed her butt looked good in her jeans and let her know! I really wanted divorce at that time since nothing had changed during the DARK period (that I knew of).
Hey Busto, thanks for the reply to my questions. Really interesting sequence of events over a prolonged period of time. And that it worked for you is amazing and gives me hope for my sitch.
Shifting gears for a moment, I have a question I'd like to put out the the forum members.
I have received an invitation to join friends of mine on a week long trip to Spain. I've never been to Europe before. Although ironically before the bomb, I had talked to my W about going there for our 20th wedding anniversary. Obviously those plans are on hold for now or may never actually happen.
So anyway, my question is should I go? I think I can do this trip on a reasonably low budget and that would be my goal. The problem I am having is that I feel like I need to seek permission from my W because I would need to dip into our savings to fund the trip.
We do not have any agreement about division of assets. All of our accounts are jointly held and I pay all of the household expenses (mortgage, utilities, car payment, etc.) out of a joint checking account that is funded by my W's income from her job. I am funding my current separate living arrangements from the proceeds of some recently completed real estate projects.
So we have a sizable savings and while I would prefer not to have to dip into savings to fund the trip, I could easily replenish the cost with the completion of my next project or if I land a job which I will eventually.
Part of me thinks, this is my life and my W dumped me and I really need to GAL so...just GO!. The other more practical part of me says wait a minute, you need to plan for your future AND you don't want to do anything to antagonize W. I'm really not sure what to do.
Any thoughts?
The other thing is that my W has been going on her 4 day extended spa weekends with OM just about every 6 weeks with another one planned for next weekend. So, I kind of feel justified in going on the trip.
Personally, I say go for it. It sounds like an amazing GAL opportunity, and like you said, your W's been funding her own get-aways. So why not you?
However, I'm sure others have suggested at this point that you need to work on dividing assets and liabilities ASAP. If you're going to lead separate lives, you might as well be protected. One less headache you need to deal with on the road ahead.
I'd definitely do it!
Si, muy buena idea (hint guess who you could take as an interpreter :D)
2tp I have never been to Europe and I plan to in the future. But a few of my friends have gone to Europe and Spain was their favorite. Be careful with pick pockets. Wear no jewlery or carry a wallet. Split cash amongst every pocket. So yes you should go.
2TP - vamanos rapidamente. You have to do this!!!!
It's not selfish in any way to do this.
Re: Spain - defintely go as a Brit who has been to Spain many times it's an absolutely wonderful country.
Barcelona, Madrid and Valencia are in the top 10 cities I've visited anywhere (and I've been to many).
Go and dont ask her permission!
Go for it 2TP... I have started thinking of something similar... taking my S to Europe for a vacation... or to Disneyworld. And I won't ask her permission.
Hmmm, 6 votes for me going to Spain. 0 votes against. And yet, why do I feel conflicted?
Yes, my W has been taking advantage with her little OM rendezvous every 6 weeks or so. Yes, we are living apart and I need to get a life. And yet, here I am agonizing aver a decision that should be pretty straight forward. Have I been so emasculated by this sitch that I am unable to make a simple decision for fear that it might upset my estranged W?
Maybe this is irrational thinking on my part but it is where my head is at at the moment. So sad!
Make that 7 votes for. I didn't see WHG's vote of confidence... I'm still conflicted!
2tp you are conflicted because of the lanuage barrier. My offer to go stands. (kidding).
I know how you feel but once you start getting up and going the fear diminishes. You are still married to her while she is not. Go to Spain and enjoy your life. I had the same conflicts now I just go and say see ya. Was thinking of going to Lancaster PA tomorrow. I have asked W for years to go but she never took me up on the offer. Hang in there
Hmmm, 6 votes for me going to Spain. 0 votes against. And yet, why do I feel conflicted?
Have I been so emasculated by this sitch that I am unable to make a simple decision for fear that it might upset my estranged W?
Yes... yes you have... but at least now you realize it
So what are you going to do about it?
You feel conflicted because you're married... and married couples take trips together, especially to neat and exotic places. So you feel like you're betraying your M by going without her.
I was just walking into my office and had this momentary feeling of texting my W. It's what I used to do... before the bomb... around lunchtime. Of course I didn't do it. But then I felt sad for a little while and when I thought about that I realized it's because that's something M couples do... I still see myself as M and hence feel something is "wrong". It'll pass... I'll get back closer to the side of seeing myself as single, but it's really hard to do.
But... what if you looked at it from the perspective that going is strengthening your M? Or at least won't do it harm and could do it benefit? It allows you to differentiate yourself. It shows your W you're not waiting around at home for her to come home. You're making your life, and it's neat and interesting.
She already has left you... so what's the worst she's going to do? Leave you again? Worst case is she gets mad and jealous... well, tough beans.
Yes, my W has been taking advantage with her little OM rendezvous every 6 weeks or so. Yes, we are living apart and I need to get a life. And yet, here I am agonizing aver a decision that should be pretty straight forward. Have I been so emasculated by this sitch that I am unable to make a simple decision for fear that it might upset my estranged W?
Okay Hombre....
Just a couple questions...
Are there ANY thoughts of "what goes around, comes around" ???
Would you be going JUST to antagonize her ?
And IF you do this, I would suggest that you are as up-front and honest as you can be to her....
This isn't tit-for-tat here , and how does this make you feel when it happens TO you ?
I agree fully that you should do this.
Just for the right reasons....
No expectations that this will change anything within her thoughts....
No expectations that she will greet you at the airport with a bouquet of roses when you return...
And BTW....IF you are thinking of taking the kids...
PLEASE....get something in writing before you get on the plane.
Or on your ride home , you can sit in the plane with an escort, and those pretty matching bracelets : )
Echoing Mach's wise words, going for the right reasons. I hope you are able to go and have a wonderful trip. It may be just what you need right now.
And Rick, I hope you get to take the trip to Lancaster. With the oddly warm temps we are having right now you should have a great time!!
All good comments from everyone, so thanks! To answer specifically M1's questions, here goes:
"Are there ANY thoughts of "what goes around, comes around" ???"Not really, although I could easily go down that path given my W's A and her little trips she's been taking.
"Would you be going JUST to antagonize her?"No! And this is why I feel troubled by this. I did not seek out the invitation to travel. But, I am fearful that she may view it that way. It is however not my intention at all. I don't want to antagonize, I want to reconcile!
"And IF you do this, I would suggest that you are as up-front and honest as you can be to her....
This isn't tit-for-tat here , and how does this make you feel when it happens TO you?"Confused by this. Are you suggesting that if I do take the trip that I tell my W what I am doing and my motivations for doing it, being specific that it is not a "tit-for-tat" type thing?
"I agree fully that you should do this.
Just for the right reasons...."There truly are no ulterior motives behind my desire to go on the trip. Friends have invited me and it is something I've always wanted to do. And, it is not going to be some crazy party trip either. The friends who I will be traveling with are a recently married female gay couple and our sole purpose for the trip is to relax and soak up some Spanish culture.
"No expectations that this will change anything within her thoughts....
No expectations that she will greet you at the airport with a bouquet of roses when you return..."I have no expectations that this will change any of my W's thinking about us. At least not in the positive. I am actually more concerned that it will do the opposite, (i.e. make her more resolute in her decision to break us apart).
And, no kids will be joining us on the trip, they have school. So, no worries about shiny matching bracelet.
Confused by this. Are you suggesting that if I do take the trip that I tell my W what I am doing and my motivations for doing it, being specific that it is not a "tit-for-tat" type thing?
No, I would use something to the affect of...
I have decided to accept an opportunity to travel with Rocky and Bullwinkle outside of the country. I will be using the funds from our hot dog stand to do this. I am planning on leaving on ??? and returning on ??? . During that time, I can be reached -in case of emergency -, by the carrier pigeon I have left in the cage , by the bathroom sink. Joking on the fill ins there, although you get my point.
But something like that...
Remember, you are doing this for yourself....
Don't try to defend it with her....like you just did, with me.
Yes, it will make her angry, and you WILL have it thrown in your face, make no mistake about that.
Nothing you can do about that. What is the schedule for the kids while you are gone ?
What would that block of time look like IF you were home ???
As far as the children's schedule ?
The trip is not until mid-march so the childrens schedule would likely be filled with school and various athletic practices and maybe a game or 2.
So, I've made my decision...........
I am going to SPAIN!! Who Hoo!!! But there is a possible twist with very interesting ramifications if things work out.
Everyone who I've asked about whether or not I should take this trip has said I should go, albeit for the right reasons and intention of pay-back. M1 also suggested I be open and honest with my W about the trip.
As I've mentioned, I was experiencing a lot of emotions about this including fear, guilt, anxiety, etc. Then out of the blue a friend called me to check on what I was up to and I told him about the trip and like everyone else, he said I should go.
I told him about my trepidation and he suggested that I tell my W that I have been invited to join our friends in Spain and if she would like to join us, she would be welcomed to come along. No pressure, just as friends having a good time with other friends in Europe. Then if she says no to the invite, I would have not lost anything and at least she would know that I was thinking about her and then no guilt if I go without her.
Well, that approach was just different enough from what I had been considering that I thought I'd give it a shot. So I called my W on her cell phone and to my surprise she answered (she usually lets it go to voice mail). I told her about the trip and invitation and she seemed really happy that I had been invited and said I should definitely go.
Then I extended the invitation of her joining us, no pressure, we'd go as friends and have a good time with our other friends. And, she seemed pretty darned excited about the prospect. She asked a few logistical questions about child care, expenses, etc. I addressed each of those and she said she'd need to check her calendar and would get back to me by the end of the day.
All in all she was very upbeat during the entire exchange and it didn't at all sound forced or fake. I think she will seriously consider the offer. It's just the vibe I got.
Regardless, even if she doesn't go with me, I have her full support for taking the trip myself and that is a tremendous relief. And based upon her positive reaction, it would appear there may be some small opening and that has me thrilled!!!!!
And now back to our regularly scheduled detachment
"Everyone who I've asked about whether or not I should take this trip has said I should go, albeit for the right reasons and intention of pay-back."
...meant to say NO intention of payback...
W sent me a text late this afternoon to respond to my invitation to join me and our friends in Spain. The tcontent of the short text is as follows:
"I'm not going to go but thank you for inviting me. I really want YOU to go and hope you will."
So W won't be joining me in Spain. I really didn't think she would but do appreciate the fact that she at least entertained the idea, however briefly. And truth be known, I'm ok with it. Really! If all I got was a small crack in the wall, then that is ok for now.
This trip is going to be fantastic for me and my GAL. And although my life over the past few months has been filled with intense emotional pain and heartache, I've also had an opportunity to learn and grow and change and evolve.
Sad that it took a figurative kick to the teeth by my W for me to wake up and realize that I had become complacent and neglectful and that I was not living up to my own potential. But, now that I am awake, I will continue to work on me and hope that one day W and I can find our way back into each others arms. I realize it may never happen, but that is my goal so onward I march.
You can do it waterboy! From the movie Waterboy....Adam Sandler.
I really want YOU to go and hope you will.
There's another lesson in here 2TP... you and I both have a history of tucking our tails and not doing stuff simply because we THINK it would possibly, somehow, maybe anger our wives. And you were fretting about how she would react... mad? unhappy?
Nope... she wants you to go. I have had pretty much the exact same experience. Each time I tell my W that I am going to do X (usually said with my heart in my throat waiting for her to be angry or disappointed) her response has been "great, have fun".
All the stuff we've missed because we just didn't stand up. And unfortunately really no one to blame but ourselves.
"There's another lesson in here 2TP... you and I both have a history of tucking our tails and not doing stuff simply because we THINK it would possibly, somehow, maybe anger our wives. And you were fretting about how she would react... mad? unhappy?"
Well, yes and no. I mean there were plenty of things that I did regardless of how W felt about it which is part of the reason I find myself here.
But on the other hand, over the years as W became more and more disengaged from even basic interactions with others outside of our family, I did find it to be a lot like walking on egg shells and always felt like I had to "make my case" for anything I wanted or needed which always led us into the same lather, rinse, repeat cycle that eventually drove us to where we are.
I think in this case, I was so fearful of antagonizing W and pushing her further towards D instead of drawing her away that that was the basis for my anxiety. I always have Sandi's admonition running through the back of my mind... "Do what works!"
So I was fearful and anxious and all the other emotions you could imagine. But, I found a workaround that seemed to work out for everyone.
"Each time I tell my W that I am going to do X (usually said with my heart in my throat waiting for her to be angry or disappointed) her response has been "great, have fun"."
Yep! I can totally relate to this. But then I often felt guilty later because I wondered if W just responded in the affirmative just to appease me or if she truly wanted me to do whatever. I think for me it was more often than not that she was just appeasing me which is where really good communication skills and trust come into play. And of course I and my W both suk at this.
In my next R whether it be with my W or someone else, communication is going to be a HUGE focus. It has to be! Know what I mean?
2TP - it's tough to accept the counter-intuitive premises of DB'ing. You get your own life, focus on you, detach, improve yourself for yourself, etc., but I imagine deep down inside all of us we are hoping so much that our spouses miss us, see our value in the present and feel drawn back to us.
So when you tell her you are going to do this or that, I suspect there's a part of you that fears that she will say okay and seem to not even care that you are doing it. In other words there's fear that they will be glad you are moving on with your life.
Such a game of poker.
BTW you really deserve to go on this trip. I imagine dewp inside your W feels this too.
So when you tell her you are going to do this or that, I suspect there's a part of you that fears that she will say okay and seem to not even care that you are doing it. In other words there's fear that they will be glad you are moving on with your life.
Exactly!
BTW you really deserve to go on this trip. I imagine deep inside your W feels this too.
I agree. And then today I was reviewing some old texts from ym W and this one stood out for me:
"I've thought about it a lot & I'd like/need to take a long weekend away..." "I'm gonna lay by the pool, maybe a mani/pedi and shop a little..."
Of course what she failed to include in her text was the fact that the OM was also included in her plans. And how do I know this? Well, when you leave a resort receipt laying around and it shows the number of guests = 2......
So yeah, I'd say I deserve to get a life!!
Hang in there 2tp it all very much stinks. I know our sitch are different but the end could be the same so I know how u feel.Do this trip for you and have a blast.
2TP, I have receipts like those too. You do deserve a trip. I know for me though, it's painful. My H has gone on vacations with OW and would be happy if I took a trip alone or with girlfriends...I think to alleviate his guilt.
However, deep down, I want to go with him and I want him to want to go on a trip with me. I think we both have to face that isn't our reality right now. You do deserve this and I know when I broke up with a serious boyfriend before I got married...a trip alone was what I needed to feel independent, know I could have a new life, and feel adventurous.
It'll be tough, but isn't sitting at home already tough? :-)
Hang in there.
2TP - it's tough to accept the counter-intuitive premises of DB'ing. You get your own life, focus on you, detach, improve yourself for yourself, etc., but I imagine deep down inside all of us we are hoping so much that our spouses miss us, see our value in the present and feel drawn back to us.
So when you tell her you are going to do this or that, I suspect there's a part of you that fears that she will say okay and seem to not even care that you are doing it. In other words there's fear that they will be glad you are moving on with your life.
Such a game of poker.
Not so much a game of poker,
but a poker face is often needed.
The alternative to GAL is what?
The alternative is an unappealing unsuccessful FAILING approach.
And since that is your only alternative, I think it's clear that regardless of what the WAS says or thinks or does
you are MORE attractive by GAL. IF it eases their guilt --so what?
Their Feeling guilt, will NOT get them back!
So if they feel less of it, GOOD...
it will lead to them feeling more comfortable around you
or at least less uncomfortable.
That's a good thing! And don't underestimate the value of them seeing you in a positive light. It matters...
LAST but SO NOT LEAST...is that you GAL makes YOU HAPPY....
if your happiness is related to your perception of their perception of your happiness
then
you are in a world of trouble. That's co-dependent to the 9th degree...
don't just "allow" yourself to be happy.
CREATE IT FOR YOURSELF b/c you are
exclusively in charge of your happiness
and the happier you are, the more attractive you are...and again,
the happier YOU ARE
PS
Go on the trip. Do as many things that do NOT remind you of her, as possible.
Enjoy it as fully as possible and know that she's going to imagine things or hear things from others..so you don't have to say antthing about the trip to her... let her wonder. The less you say the better, I think.
Maybe Later on you can post some pics of you on FB if you want...you "and someone else?" don't name them...Just name the place you are in the pics, and enjoy your trip...all upbeat and happy! Her loss...NOT YOURS
It's not about HER or what she thinks/feels/says
it is all about YOU GAL AND LOVING IT!!!
In other words there's fear that they will be glad you are moving on with your life.
I think part of the trick is that as you're moving on with your own life, make it a life that she'd want to be a part of. Do things that are legitimately cool (like, say, taking a trip to Spain), fun, enjoyable so that ANY person (ideally including one's wife) would look at it and go "say, that's something I'd dig being a part of..."
Heck, now even *I* want to go to Spain!
^^^^ That's not the main goal of course, but hopefully you get my meaning. Do things you'll enjoy and that anyone else would look at and say to themselves, "Man, that looks cool."
Being in charge of one's own happiness is a huge life lesson - one I had learned long after my first divorce. On the one hand, I think it may have inadvertently led me to be less sensitive to my current wife's unhappiness, but on the other hand, it's a lesson that she would do well to learn too. Perhaps yours too - if she sees you as solely responsible for her unhappiness, and the other person as being the source of her current happiness. But we can't teach it...
25 - “CREATE IT FOR YOURSELF b/c you are exclusively in charge of your happiness
and the happier you are, the more attractive you are...and again, the happier YOU ARE”Very good point, 25! And I couldn't agree more!
25 - “Go on the trip. Do as many things that do NOT remind you of her, as possible.
Enjoy it as fully as possible and know that she's going to imagine things or hear things from others..so you don't have to say antthing about the trip to her... let her wonder. The less you say the better, I think.”I booked the trip this afternoon and I fully intend to extract maximum enjoyment out of the opportunity. Of course it would have been nice to have W with me but that will have to be another time in the future; God willing and the creek don't rise!
Koja - “I think part of the trick is that as you're moving on with your own life, make it a life that she'd want to be a part of. Do things that are legitimately cool (like, say, taking a trip to Spain), fun, enjoyable so that ANY person (ideally including one's wife) would look at it and go "say, that's something I'd dig being a part of..."”That is my goal. And I get your point that it can't be the exclusive reason for doing these things. It is an added benefit if my W sees me as someone who is exciting and interesting and attractive as she once did many years ago.
Amazing series of posts, 25! Those two went into my DB file, which is huge at this point.
Glad you booked that trip, 2. I think you're going to find that it was well worth it.
2TP - look I know your not looking for another woman but some innocent playful fun with some of the locals can't help but raise your spirits!
My girlfriend in college was from Madrid and I fondly remember the passion the girls there have for life! Enjoy it man. You deserve some real light hearted fun!
Hey don't forget to run with the bulls!
Kind of reminds me of the Girl From Ipanema. Oh wait! Thats in Brazil isn't it? Maybe I'll go to Rio next.
Going to Rio next? WTH now I am jealous. Good for you 2 you deserve it. When in Spain try their grilled meats over flames. I hear it is awesome.
Well I've hit 100+ posts in little over a weeks time, (must be some kind of record). Thank you to everyone who contributed to this particular thread. It was very active and informative and I am comforted by the concern and good wishes from everyone's who stopped by.
I'm going to shut down this thread and start a new one. See you all on the other side!