Sheesh, it's time to create a new thread. This thread cap rule is really hard to swallow.
Anyway, to continue from where I/we left off:
Wife of 6-Years is Divorcing Me pt. V 25 & WHG - Thanks again for your valuable words and thoughts! I agree with both of you about my stubbornness in wanting the flight itinerary from my wife. I do have my reasons for doing so, namely:
- My wife was the one who suggested this need for itineraries when we started taking our son out of state during the separation, so I'm basically doing what she wants.
- I don't trust that her family will call me right away if something did happened to my wife and son on the flight(s). Her family and I have zero relationship, so I doubt they care.
Sorry, WHG, I have to disagree with one of your points, unless I'm misunderstanding this entirely!
Co-parenting is tough... it's about respecting the freedoms and decisions of the other. When she has your S she has the control.
Didn't my wife want a divorce? Divorce, especially with children involved, is all about schedules and structure, right? Add my wife's history of self-entitlement and zero-to-low respect of me as a father and what do you have?
I hope you understand part of what I'm doing is merely respecting her game, the divorce game (as much as I hate to). If she wanted nonchalant and informal child-raising, then she's not facing the reality of things.
In this calling schedule scenario, for example, if I were to respect her freedom and decision, wouldn't it just mean I'm
allowing/enabling her to live in this fantasy world? Wouldn't I also be seen as a
doormat?
If it's for the benefit of our son, I want to stick to what's right for him (i.e. giving him structure and reliability), not what SHE thinks she wants/needs.
- My wife was the one who suggested this need for itineraries when we started taking our son out of state during the separation, so I'm basically doing what she wants.
Alamo, I understand where you are coming from, but going back and forth on these types of things with your W has to get old. You probably have an idea what airport they are flying out of and what airport they are flying into. Not that difficult to figure out their itinerary.
- I don't trust that her family will call me right away if something did happened to my wife and son on the flight(s). Her family and I have zero relationship, so I doubt they care.
Anyone with half a heart and half a brain would call you. After all, we are talking about your S.
Didn't my wife want a divorce? Divorce, especially with children involved, is all about schedules and structure, right? Add my wife's history of self-entitlement and zero-to-low respect of me as a father and what do you have?
Doesn't matter how you cut it, when your W has your S, she is in control. When you have your S, you are in control. There will be things that she does when she has him that you will not agree with and vice versa. It cuts both ways Alamo.
In this calling schedule scenario, for example, if I were to respect her freedom and decision, wouldn't it just mean I'm allowing/enabling her to live in this fantasy world?
You don't have a choice. She left and filed for D. She doesn't care if you respect her freedom or decision. Perhaps if you respected her decision and let her go, things might change.
Wouldn't I also be seen as a doormat?
Only you decide if you are a doormat.
If it's for the benefit of our son, I want to stick to what's right for him (i.e. giving him structure and reliability), not what SHE thinks she wants/needs.
I agree, there should be some structure, but again your W will do it her way when she has your S.
What are your plans for Christmas while your S is gone? Do you have anything planned?
Sounds like a normal marriage to me! You know - give and take.
Perhaps I'm missing something here. Aside from financially, what other concessions has she made with her life? Since separating:
- I've work around my wife's medical school/medical interviews/medical internship schedules.
- I'm having to live with the fact that she took our son from our house and instated a 70/30 timeshare, despite my efforts and requests to balance that out.
I've said this many times before: if we were childless, I wouldn't care if she moved to the moon. But when she plays around with our son like this, it's obvious that I'd take it a little more seriously.
- She still talks down to me (in front of our son, mind you), despite advising her not to numerous times.
- She makes her schedule, and because my job and life doesn't involve a lot of travel or late nights, it always seems as if I'm working with her schedule.
- She blatantly ignores boundaries, even simple physical ones. She's been known to waltz into my garage (where she picks our son up) to take boxes and things she "forgot" when she first left the house.
But I digress. The funny thing about the schedule and the itinerary is that these are 180s for me. Yes, you heard right.
My wife was always the planner, the logistics person, the one who preferred structure. I was more a shoot-from-the-hip kind of guy.
Therefore it's baffling to me that my wife calls me controlling for doing these things; I'm trying to be a responsible and consistent adult here. I guess like what MWD indicates in the book, if your 180 obviously doesn't work, try something else.
Maybe I'm forgetting to humble myself. Maybe I'm not forgiving. Maybe not.
Thanks for checking in on me, LITB. Hope you're doing well yourself. Since this whole separation mess, I've never been completely alone during big holidays, much thanks to my church family. So on Christmas day I'm having a lunch party with a dear family and then dinner with another. Tomorrow I'm taking sometime off for a day to have some man time with a close church friend as well; his family just bought some land and property up near Redding and wants me to go out there to survey the place.
What do you have planned for Christmas, buddy?
I guess like what MWD indicates in the book, if your 180 obviously doesn't work, try something else.
What you said right here ^^^.
Thanks for checking in on me, LITB. Hope you're doing well yourself. Since this whole separation mess, I've never been completely alone during big holidays, much thanks to my church family. So on Christmas day I'm having a lunch party with a dear family and then dinner with another. Tomorrow I'm taking sometime off for a day to have some man time with a close church friend as well; his family just bought some land and property up near Redding and wants me to go out there to survey the place.
What do you have planned for Christmas, buddy?
I'm glad you have plans to be around positive people.
I'm flying to NM on Friday to spend 11 days with my children and the rest of my family. It should be a great time. I'm certainly looking forward to it. Thanks for asking.
Merry Christmas Alamo.
Shalom
Hey Alamo:
How have you been. Sorry if i am just jumping not keep up to date on your sitch. Took a really long break.
Yea i think i do agree with LITB a bit here.
In the begining of my sitch, i too felt a little like how you feel. Overtime I just let things go. Now they don'e bother me in the least. But you what happened? My W now calls and tells me all the details. I acknowledge and say thanks. Believe me it feels lot more peaceful.
I guess it is only when you truly let go is when the spouse realizes that they are no longer a part of your life. Thats when they might try to reach out to you.
Just my 2c.
But hey its nice to see you guys still active on these forums!
Thanks for dropping in, LITB/Karma. Yes, it's been awhile, especially you, Karma. Just caught up a bit on your thread and seems like things are still at a stalemate, huh? At least your wife's not pursuing the divorce.
UPDATE
9 Days until I see our son again! This is, by far, the longest time he's been away. I really hope this doesn't become the norm. I just want to update you guys on two of my battlefronts:
1. Divorce: I'm completing the initial financial disclosure forms. Have a phone appointment with my lawyer later to discuss the next course of action. Please pray for this; I hate what I'm doing and hate that I have to do it.
2. Porn addiction: So far, so good. I'm on day 223 of Operation No Jack. Time really flies when you don't think about it, or more precisely, when the addiction isn't at the forefront of your mind.
good job alamo on the 223 - it must be hard but it's worth it.
UPDATEHey folks, haven't been in for a couple of weeks. Was being healthy and keeping busy while our son was in TN for 3 weeks with my wife and her family:
- On the 12/21-22, Went up to the mountains near Redding CA with a church friend to help clean and fix up his new getaway home.
- Spent Xmas with close friends.
- Spent a wholesome New Years weekend with friends at said getaway home.
- Cleaned the backyard. My trees are STILL shedding like a shaggy dog in summer.
- On 1/7/12, saw our son for the first time since the New Year. He said he missed me and we've been having blast every time!
- My wife is on her last stretch of interviews with hospitals. It's only a matter of time now before the legal things start moving forward.
She's interviewing in Salinas CA today; since this is the closest one she's interviewed for (all others are in East Coast), please pray that she gets this.
How's everyone doing?
Why does my wife have to be rude? Somebody enlighten/remind me of the behavior of a WAS, please.
Scenario
Wife comes to pick our son for a few hours of personal time before she goes out of town for a week...
W: So when do you think you're doing to pick him up later?
M: Well, how about after dinner? Or...
W: [Rolls her eyes] Tell me WHEN would THAT be? I have no idea what dinner time is.
M: You know, let's just do it before his bedtime...so 7pm.
Is she miffed that she won't be seeing our son for 2 weeks (she out of town for one week and he'll be with me one week when my family comes to town to visit)?
Was she testing my decision-making skills? Was she testing me per se?
Hey alamo, good to read you again. Glad you had a good holiday season.
Is she miffed that she won't be seeing our son for 2 weeks (she out of town for one week and he'll be with me one week when my family comes to town to visit)?
Was she testing my decision-making skills? Was she testing me per se?
Most likely:
+ Yes
+ No
+ No
Although, if you're "normal" self would be non-committal, especially around times, then she "attacked" you because you were convenient and safe to vent her frustrations at.
Keep letting it bounce off you, but if that might be a 180 (committing to times and deadlines) for you, then maybe you can be more proactive with that.
next time be SPECIFIC as in, "I will pick son up at 6:54 pm." if she stares at you
then you say "my reasoning in choosing that time is b/c it preceeds his bedtime but allows for a meal together, and sufficient time on your end. Is this satisfactory to you?"
She's either being rude or she's commenting on a trait she dislikes in you, or both.
Are you vague when you communicate with her or about time in general?
Okay so fix that I guess, but never take her tone. Sheesh
...as they say here in southern California
what a betch...
Hi Alamo:
Yea it does not look like she might upset about your son's upcoming time with you.
It could be that she is upset and that she really does not know how to channel that correctly. For all you know, she had a rough time in traffic and she is upset about that but you become the target.
I feel that there's not much can do about that, except to let these things just roll off your back. Otherwise she still has the power to control your emotions.
I am sure that over time she will realize.
UPDATE
I haven't checked in here for probably a few weeks because my parents from Malaysia flew into town, so it's been crazy hectic. Today is also day 257 of Ops No-Jack. Good times.
It was interesting when my wife came to pick our son up from my house the other day: My parents came out to greet her and my dad hugged her, so did my mom. (Nobody had seen each other for 2 years now.) According to my mom, she noticed surprise then sorrow in my wife's eyes.
And then, yesterday my wife came to me and said that she didn't know my parent were visiting for so long and didn't mind our son staying with me during that time. She said, "E should get to know his grandparents more."
I don't know what to make of my mom's observation of my wife. Maybe my wife just regrets losing the relationship with my parents, but not necessarily me.
Also, what my wife said about wanting our son to know my parents more, two things I thought of when she said that were:
a. Sure, you're saying that because you're suddenly feeling guilty thanks to my parents' positive attitude towards you."
b. "Of COURSE you want our son to know his grandparents more, especially since you're planning to take him away more permanently to the East Coast, right?"
I know it's pessimistic of me to think those things, but well...I don't know...
UPDATE 6pm
Okay, perhaps somebody can explain this interesting development:
When my wife came to fetch our son from here, she started talking to me about her matches. She's in med school, and matches are hospitals that will be accept her as a resident.
Anyway, she begins explaining how she's applied everywhere, including here in California, but unfortunately she's gotten too many rejections from this state to count. So many of her interviews have been in the East Coast (as some of y'all might've read about from my previous posts). She said she'll find out in mid-March where she'll be going, but she's confident she'll get South Carolina or Tennessee.
So here's where I'm left wondering: Throughout the conversation, she did NOT imply once that she was intending of following through on her initial intent to file for sole custody of our son. It sounded to me that she assumes that I would be going along. She even remembered that my previous employer (from my engineering days) operates out of Charleston, SC, and though she didn't say it outright, it sounded like she was implying that I could find work with them.
...Is she assuming?
...Is she dragging this separation longer and delaying the finalizing of the divorce? I.e. Is she having second thoughts? (That's the optimistic side of me speaking)
...Is she stringing me along so I can be there to help with our son (just as we are right now)?
Well... Imma gonna go with door number three... but... with a touch of a... and a dash of that stuff in the middle...
How's THAT for hedging? lol
What do you think the likelyhood is that she's forgotten she doesn't want to be M to you?
Well... Imma gonna go with door number three... but... with a touch of a... and a dash of that stuff in the middle...
How's THAT for hedging? lol
What do you think the likelyhood is that she's forgotten she doesn't want to be M to you?
That's what's making me wonder, Kaffe. Yes, she doesn't want to be married to me, but that doesn't mean she wants a divorce per se. I've ALWAYS had a hunch that she's still in conflict over this. Others who have talked to her or seen her (e.g. some church friends, or my mother, as I wrote about above) have noticed the same as well.
Now, I also understand that though she may be in conflict, she (like many others, i.e. the 50% who decide to end their marriages) may end up taking the easier route.
Also, why bother filing for divorce and requesting full custody and alimony/child support, and then telling me all those things in my last post?
[Figuratively pulling my hair out]
Alamo-
You need to ask her. Seems weird that she thinks you would just move back to the East coast.
Could be good news though that maybe she wants to work it out.
Shaky
Alamo, just want to be sure if you are still LRT?
If so, asking her would be pursuing because it would be R talk.
Just decide what some options would be if you stayed, if you followed, etc...
I'm still practicing LRT, though not as thorough as I used to. Not that I backslide, but just haven't used all the steps (and only because the opportunities presented aren't as obvious as, say, in the earlier/crazier part of our separation).
I went back and read the chapter again, though. Based on the writing, I don't see how it would be called "pursuing" if I asked my wife about why she thinks I might be going to the East with her. I agree it's "pursuing" if I repeatedly bug her about it, if I frequently bring it up.
That's not to say that I will ask my wife per Shaky's suggestion, but there may come a time when I/we might have to.
At the moment, I will stick to my plan to remain in California and try to get full custody of our son. However, if I do entertain the idea of moving, I have a few questions to ask you folks (before I approach my lawyer):
- What is the divorce law in either SC or Tennessee? My wife has filed for divorce here in CA, but if she moves and so do I, how would the divorce be executed then?
I would agree with what you say about pursuing, yet I still get spew in even the most benign conversation which, in retrospect, a single comment by me COULD be interpreted as pursuing...
Maybe some are more hyper tuned to it then others... *shrug*
I believe you can only D in the state where you M.
UPDATE
For the past two days since Sunday, my wife has been more huffy-puffy than usual. To wit:
- She let out a big sigh (and muttered something under her own breath) when I took a few extra seconds to say goodbye/talk to our son when she came to pick him up.
- The past two days our son had some minor #1 accidents at daycare which required a change of pants/socks. Each time my wife noticed this. Yesterday was interesting:
W: Where are his pants?
M: [I pointed to the dryer that was running] If you'd like to wait, his pants are almost ready.
W: It's okay...[walks back to her car] It's just that you didn't give me his pants from yesterday.
She thinks I'm hoarding his clothes now? I'm also quite sure that there is a more constructive way to ask for clothes if she is short of them.
Just a thought: Perhaps my wife's recent behavior (see previous post) is due to something we read/see a lot in here - that is, that the WAS:
(a) uses negativity (or tests) when they sense positive changes in us (i.e. GALs/LRTs/180s) or,
(b) simple wants to deny their guilt by dumping it on the person they despise (i.e. us).
UPDATE
Okay, my wife has been subtly huffy-puffy all week. What gives?
Was it two huffs and one puff... or more like one huff one puff repeated? lol
No ideas here, man. Maybe she's trying to get your attention? Seeing if maybe you are gonna engage her in convo?
I'd say, let it go. If she has something to say, she'll say it... eventually...
I'd say, let it go. If she has something to say, she'll say it... eventually...
I agree.
I'll add...She will test for good and bad. She'll test just to test. If a Woman wants a reaction, she will find a way. If she's testing you, so be it. You can't fail if you are happy with where you are at.(Get me on this?) A Man is cool with all outcomes. If you are not...then find a way to be okay with whatever happens.
Her choice, your actions; Don't focus on her...focus on you. Let her worry about wondering if your Huffy and Puffy for a change.
Not the other way. I'm rubber your glue, whatever..... get it?
I agree with both of y'all, Kaffe/FaithAK. I do think something is truly bothering her, but the only method of expressing it - towards me, at least - is through negativity.
Speaking of which, allow me to describe to you how today's interaction went. On Saturday, I usually fetch our son from her place at 4pm, give or take. She would also usually text me to let me know, e.g. "You can come at 4". I've always thought we've done this because it's part of our communication process, as well as the times when our son naps a little over 4 and thus needs a little more time to wake up/snack/etc.
This is what transpired today - At 3:57pm I still had not received a text from my wife (usually she'd let me know by 3:45 at the latest), so I sent her the following text message:
M: Is E still napping?
W: No....
M: I wanted to (be) sure. Don't want to come if he was sleeping or something.
W: 4. Like the past 80 weeks.
I didn't respond because I was already on the way (don't drive and text, folks). But my response would've been like this:
M: Yes, and just like the past 80 weeks, you and I communicated about it.
This huffy-puffyness is taking a downturn, and I can't understand why. I'm not flustered by it, but I am bothered that our son is exposed to such negativity.
UPDATE 4pm
My wife just informed me that she'll find out which hospital/state she'll be matched to tomorrow. I'm not looking forward to the steps I may need to take next. Do I decide to move or do I file for a motion to keep our son in the state. Seeing that my wife isn't providing any signs or indications that give me good reason to move there, I'm inclined to do the latter. Serenity now!
I sincerely need your prayers... thanks!
I'd be so inclined too, Alamo.
Custody or shared custody of your son must be the priority now.
That means stability and less upheaval for him.
But keep on with your changes b/c when your w faces the concrete consequences and unintended results of her choices
she MAY look your way to check herself and ask if this is worth it.
make sure you are your best self when she looks your way. You have changed and things COULD be better and different, couldnt't they?
Regardless if you believe SHE has worked on herself (and God knows she thinks she has b/c she's in medical training
and doctors think their work AT WORK means they work hard in ALL areas of their life...and that's why some people find them to be the "working spoiled" b/c it's just not so...for every night of call they pull, their spouse is alone and parenting solely...so aren't they both working and sacrificing? Not to mention the child with one parent instead of 2..)
You want her to have 2nd thoughts. It will help you with son and it may help your r with her...can't hurt.
no offense to the MDs out there.
(( ))
I agree with both of y'all, Kaffe/FaithAK. I do think something is truly bothering her, but the only method of expressing it - towards me, at least - is through negativity.
Speaking of which, allow me to describe to you how today's interaction went. On Saturday, I usually fetch our son from her place at 4pm, give or take. She would also usually text me to let me know, e.g. "You can come at 4". I've always thought we've done this because it's part of our communication process, as well as the times when our son naps a little over 4 and thus needs a little more time to wake up/snack/etc.
This is what transpired today - At 3:57pm I still had not received a text from my wife (usually she'd let me know by 3:45 at the latest), so I sent her the following text message:
M: Is E still napping?
W: No....
M: I wanted to (be) sure. Don't want to come if he was sleeping or something.
W: 4. Like the past 80 weeks.
I didn't respond because I was already on the way (don't drive and text, folks). But my response would've been like this:
M: Yes, and just like the past 80 weeks, you and I communicated about it.
This huffy-puffyness is taking a downturn, and I can't understand why. I'm not flustered by it, but I am bothered that our son is exposed to such negativity.
I'd suggest calling her on this crap. If in person an eye roll MIGHT do it, but to be clear, brief and to the point...
Even a simple "AND the last 80 weeks there was communication from you first, so no need for the condescension. It's destructive." And leave the area as if the topic is closed (unless she wants to apologize. Then try not to die of shock).
Sending hugs your way
((( )))
Hi, 25 - so good to hear from you...it's been awhile!
Speaking of keeping up with changes, I think I may have shot myself in the foot in terms of her noticing any changes I make.
I have been out of work this year, but took up a new position last week. Something less "corporatey" unlike my last job; it was frighteningly sterile. Anyway, I kept this information from my wife because I knew that she would use this being-out-of-work-again as a strike against me on the child custody front. She's used this as one of the reasons to leave, so I knew she could potentially jump at that opportunity again.
I spoke to my legal counsel and she agreed that I should delay as long as possible.
But today when she came to my house, my wife said this:
W: Would you like me to tell you where I will be placed tomorrow?
M: Sure.
W: [Looks at me and smirks] Since you're out of work again, you can think about moving. Lower cost of living...
M: Yes, I'd like to know where you'll be going. And I quit my job. I've just joined John Muir Medical actually.
W: Riiiggghttt...
so are you saying you DID join John Muir and told her b/c....??
B/c she threw it in your face? I get that.
But I guess it would have come out anyhow...and you can modify child support when her income goes up and after the residency, it will. If yours also does, then no matter.
So did she not believe you or what? Sheesh...real nice...
guess it'll be hard for her when YOUR JOB means you can't pick up and up after her all the time.
She's definitely feeling entitled, isn't she?
sheesh again!
so are you saying you DID join John Muir and told her b/c....??
B/c she threw it in your face? I get that.
Yes, I did join JM. I wanted it to be a smooth transition from being jobless for that duration and getting this new position. But as far as I know, that blew up in my face, because now I've verified (in her mind) that I can't keep a job (that has been an issue she's had with me) AND that I lied to her.
But I guess it would have come out anyhow...and you can modify child support when her income goes up and after the residency, it will. If yours also does, then no matter.
So did she not believe you or what? Sheesh...real nice...
The thing is, I don't know how she found out. I didn't officially disclosed my situation in any legal docs. Perhaps tax paperwork (I don't see how, since I still filed joint)? Perhaps our daycare provider let it slip (even though all she knew was that I found a job, not my being out of work)? Perhaps she has a mole in my life? I kept this low key, the only people who know are my family and church. No one on the forums (until now) or even FB know.
I don't think it's about her not believing me or not, 25. She's always thought I was a loser in terms of work, so with this she probably thinks: "So what's new with Alamo? He hasn't changed one bit."
What I can tell you is this: I haven't been comfortable or happy with my work in the long term because I gave up my engineering career in Asia and came to small college town in the Bible Belt to study Psychology. There isn't much work you can find with a BA in that field, at least one that can support a married life. Me getting my Masters was out of the question; she wanted to finish first, then I would go back to school. That was the plan, at least.
On top of that, I couldn't find many production engineering jobs, since this was during the financial crisis AND the fact that everybody was moving to China. As a permanent resident, I don't have security clearance to work at, say, aeronautic or military plants.
My first real job as a curriculum developer in 2007 came as a godsend, truly. That was my foot in the door, but to be honest, my lack of formal training showed through often enough. Most employers didn't mind, because my work made up for it. But as a man, as a person, I struggled with it.
My porn addiction and the consequent decreased respect from my wife made her come to the conclusion that I'm just a lazy, lying man, and not because that I'm kind of a fish out of water.
Lately, I've wished I could ask her (now that's completed her medical training) how she would feel if someone asked her to drop what she's doing and go into, say, sales or interior design as a long-term job. With her good work ethic, she would probably excel, but the question is: Will she be truly happy? Can she feel complete job-wise? Will she have the lasting power? I dare to say that she would not even consider it.
Sorry for being so long-winded.
Hi Alamo: Read up your recent posts. Man, a lot happening.
If there's one thing i have learnt through my cr@p, it is that i need to respect myself first. Only then others will.
Your partner needs to respect you for what you are as a person. Your qualities. Not your abilities.
So don't keep telling yourself that your not having a job a strike against you. Because the more you keep telling that you will start believing that. As 25 says, "Heart follows the head"
Keep on being strong man!
Hey MK, fancy seeing you here after such a long time! I caught up a little with your thread. It's so hard to be positive when the other spouse just isn't seeing the changes THEY need to make, just as much as you do.
UPDATE 6pm
I'm very frustrated today. Not because my car's transmission broke for good. Not because I have to spend unnecessary cash on another car. My wife approached me to talk and our conversation was something like follows:
W: So you know that I got Spartasburg for my residency. Yadda yadda yadda.
M: Are you happy with it?
W: Yeah, I would've like Salinas (California), but Spartasburg is a 600-bed facility...yadda yadda yadda.
W: I just want you to know that I'm taking E (our son) with me to SC. We will be moving in June. You are more than welcomed to move there, or you can chose to stay, or move back to Malaysia, since you have a hard time with work. It's up to you.
M: I'd like E to be close to me. I'm not moving back to Malaysia. No way.
W: Well, I'm taking him with me. Under the new limited work hours law, we're not allowed to work more than 50 hours a week. The hospital also has daycare - it's ranked number #2 in the state of SC. So you can file what you want with your lawyers, but I can provide the judge with all the necessary reasons that will favor me.
W: [As she walks to her car and closes her door] You can't even hold a job, and I can prove that I have a stable one.
I don't know what to think now. I mean, I know what I must do, but what the heck? How is she so smug and self-confident? I bet when you read through the conversation, you can sense the immense self-confidence that she will win custody of our son, no matter what. How can one earn respect when she has none to give and because she (as a doctor with type-A personality and history of parental emotional incest) automatically demands respect wherever she goes.
I hate to say it but I've never felt Satan's presence so strongly between us. Did I already ask y'all to pray for me?
Talk to a L ASAP and know what your rights are.
^^^good idea. Man this puts things in perspective. I do not eny you my friend. Hang in there and God's speed.
Alamo,
Your W has had the gloves off for a long time. You have no choice but to bring your "A" game right now. Who cares what she thinks? You want your little man in your life. Your number #1 priority is your relationship with him.
As Mr. Bond said, see a L quickly.
as the w of an MD who put him through ALL THE FUN TIMES, I'm pleasantly surprised, and a bit disbelieving of their new hourly limit. My h still works hours longer than that and he's out of training...
I hate giving legal advice so I'm not--
but I'm GUESSING your L will say to File asap so your state has jurisdiction...
or else SC gets to decide all this stuff...As of now, you and son are NOT in SC so what's the delay in you taking legal action?
The woman is telling you shes' taking your son away from you...period. Act now.ALso--- she sure talks a good game of getting it all, but I don't buy it. It's still about SON'S interest and not her income....And you are the primary caregiver, or more of one than her.
So her emphasis on the "stable job" is wholly misplaced. I'd be VERY surprised if holding a stable job means - SHE GETS CUSTODY..
no it means SHE PAYS YOU to care for son...sheesh...
and btw, does her residency have her do ANY CALL? B /c I think they all do.
Where will son go at 2 am? Gee...
Maybe the daycare is open 24/7... that sounds great for son. Super fun...
IMO, you need to go get custody...not saying that as a L, but as your DB friend.
Hey MK, fancy seeing you here after such a long time! I caught up a little with your thread. It's so hard to be positive when the other spouse just isn't seeing the changes THEY need to make, just as much as you do.
UPDATE 6pm
I'm very frustrated today. Not because my car's transmission broke for good. Not because I have to spend unnecessary cash on another car. My wife approached me to talk and our conversation was something like follows:
W: So you know that I got Spartasburg for my residency. Yadda yadda yadda.
M: Are you happy with it?
W: Yeah, I would've like Salinas (California), but Spartasburg is a 600-bed facility...yadda yadda yadda.
W: I just want you to know that I'm taking E (our son) with me to SC. We will be moving in June. You are more than welcomed to move there, or you can chose to stay, or move back to Malaysia, since you have a hard time with work. It's up to you.
M: I'd like E to be close to me. I'm not moving back to Malaysia. No way.
W: Well, I'm taking him with me. Under the new limited work hours law, we're not allowed to work more than 50 hours a week. The hospital also has daycare - it's ranked number #2 in the state of SC. So you can file what you want with your lawyers, but I can provide the judge with all the necessary reasons that will favor me.
W: [As she walks to her car and closes her door] You can't even hold a job, and I can prove that I have a stable one.
I don't know what to think now. I mean, I know what I must do, but what the heck? How is she so smug and self-confident? I bet when you read through the conversation, you can sense the immense self-confidence that she will win custody of our son, no matter what. How can one earn respect when she has none to give and because she (as a doctor with type-A personality and history of parental emotional incest) automatically demands respect wherever she goes.
Not sure what the emotional incest is all about but that smugness is her senior year of med school talking. Her humility comes soon...like by autumn of her first year when she realizes she knows NOTHING about practicing medicine on real people b/c people are not like the pictures in the books when they are your patients AND the staff is not so kind either.
They remember the "hard residencies" THEY had, and her relatively easy hours...being a single parent won't impress them. (They may be wary of working with her)
& though I don't wish this on her or anyone, when one of her patients crashes, she won't be so smug. It's VERY Humbling for all but the most narcisstic of people...so I guess we'll see.
Make your L appointment asap (and see if she can buy you a new trans)....
Imo, she will NOT see you differently until another 6 months or year passes, if then.
I can't promise EVER but from her tone, it'll take her a few notches of the real world experience, AND you getting son for her to wake the heck up. If then. Meanwhile YOU will be moving on in your new life with son, and letting him visit his out of state for her stable job, Mom...
Good luck Alamo, don't give up. This is the time you STAND UP for your son and that's all there is to it.
And don't buy into the "you're welcome to move there" crap. Who says she'll give you any custody then? I don't buy it and I don't believe her.
Don't give away your power. You have more power, ATM, than you realize. Don't waste it.
I hate to say it but I've never felt Satan's presence so strongly between us. Did I already ask y'all to pray for me?
You have our prayers...and so does your son. Pray to God, and don't focus on the Enemy. It plays into it. Turn to YOUR Savior and let HIM handle things for you.
make sense?
Is she going to be a surgeon?
Is she going to be a surgeon?
First she'll be an intern and then she'll apply to a specialty and if she gets accepted, she'll begin her residency in that specialty. Some are harder to get into than others.
I doubt it will be surgery- Surgery residencies, in most places
pride themselves on how much they make the residents work, especially the interns...
but hey, maybe Spartanburg is way different.
But if I recall correctly that's not where her interests lay.
Alamo, did you see your L yet?
It was a sarcastic joke 25, she has the personality. I work with residents and interns daily.
I just want you to know that I'm taking E (our son) with me to SC. We will be moving in June. You are more than welcomed to move there, or you can chose to stay, or move back to Malaysia, since you have a hard time with work. It's up to you.
Man Alamo, that was mean. Because that was a similar thing my wife threw on me last year.
Yup I think you should see a L ASAP. Don't think of anything but your kid right now. Yea it hurts when your spouse says the things she did. But you really should cut the rope.
Good luck man
It was a sarcastic joke 25, she has the personality. I work with residents and interns daily.
Labug,
I almost got that before...dang, hate missing good sarcasm.
And other than my h being an MD (not a surgeon) I defended them in malpractice suits as legal counsel for a medical center. The only doctors I'm sure lied to me, were both surgeons. (just sayin')
you should have seen my post BEFORE I edited the commentary...
Wow, I really appreciate all y'all's replies and concerns!
I'm sorry for being absent for so long. My parents have been visiting from Malaysia, my starting a new job at John Muir Medical and a few other things have kept me from spending extended periods of time at the computer (which is a good thing, IMO).
When this news about my wife and her intentions occurred, one of the first things I did was contact my L and paralegal team about this.
That said, these few weeks talking about it with more people, i.e. family, parents, close friends, praying - has given me a new light on things. So there are a couple of things I want/hope to do now:
- I will strongly consider moving IF and only IF my wife is willing to go to a 50-50 share of our son (right now it's 70-30 in her favor), AND in writing, of course. If she refuses, I'll invoke the right to keep our son in the state.
- Find out more about the ins-and-outs of divorce law in SC. I've been reading up on it online, but have inquired from my legal team if they might have more appropriate insight/knowledge.
Labug/25 - to answer your question, my wife is going into family practice with an emphasis in OB-GYN.
Your prayers and thoughts are helping, even if it's not where I want things to be, but my soul and heart have strengthened...thanks y'all! My better self is benefiting me and our son, no doubt.
UPDATE 6pm
Wife comes over and asks if I still have some of her things, such as her bibles, etc. She exclaims that I should give them to her since I have no use for them. She also adds that she has given me my stuff, so I should do the same.
Uh helloooo...I don't think you have -- you haven't given my time with our son back.
Here's the funny thing, she found a pack of her old med-school homemade flash cards I have stored in the garage and took them. But you know something? I don't think she remembers that when she moved out of our home, she actually dumped the cards in a garbage bag and placed them in our office paper bin. Lucky her that I had the sense to keep them.
Anyway, we couldn't figure out where her "things" are, so I told her that I'm about to go through the garage soon and organize it, so if I find her things, I'd set them aside. (Do you think it's bending over backwards too much? I was trying to be genuinely helpful.)
The more I think about it though, I remember donating quite a lot of her things a year ago, so we'll see what I can find.
As an aside, my soul and heart is going through some tumultuous times -- two nightmares about my wife over the weekend kinda does that to you. The second one was either a dream or a nightmare. In it we finally got a point where we said let's start from scratch. Towards the end of it, I strongly recall her turning around and saying: "I love you, Alamo". Then we kissed like we never kissed before. I also recall how strong my emotions were in the dream and when I woke up, which were a mixture of extreme happiness and sudden sadness.
I found my Ws college degree in a pile with mine. She needs to provide it to my L like I provided to hers. She has no clue where it is and has not asked.
Update 5:51pm
I don't know where to start (or end). This past couple of day my wife has gone nuts, and the sad thing is, she's been able to press my buttons with what she says.
The past couple of days she started asking for her things that I still have in my house. She went into this whole schpeel about how she's entitled to take her and our son's things; that I just can't go and donate them or sell them off (and pocket the profit). She told me that I haven't changed, that I'm still not a man because I filed married joint for our taxes and not separately and pocketed the return. (I told her it's hers if she wants to come back to within the confines of this marriage).
She kept saying that she could still tell that I was lying to her from the way my right cheek indent, just like always. Totally bogus science, of course. There's micro-expressions, body language and vocal queues that all have to be carefully taken into account, not some quick study. I futilely told her that even if she was reading "an" emotion from me, it's not lying, it's guilt. I did since the beginning -- from doing porn, from lying about, from the pain.
Anyway.
Today, she basically showed up early and walked into my garage and started going through boxes and taking what she figured she deserves. I don't feel like going into the entire conversation(s), because I'm worn out and pissed that I get drawn into this again. Plus, all she brought up was basically the same-line script she's used forever, except more aggressively; I guess she's trying to make sure she doesn't lose/leave anything important before she has to leave for SC.
After thinking it through, I think all she did today and yesterday was:
a. Try to justify her actions (leaving, filing for divorce) by repeating the same lines over and over and over again, i.e. Alamo -- you're a liar, you haven't changed, you will always hurt me.
b. Expose our son to some negative conversations. I talked to him about when I picked him from daycare today. I apologized for last night and told him that at least I will try to speak calmly and not so "scarily". Couldn't speak for mommy, though. Today while my wife was going on this spree, I tried my best to keep him involved and kept talking to him and played with him. Much to her benefit.
I just got off from talking to my sister and (she's been one of the angriest about this whole thing among every one I know) she just flat out said: "Just divorce her already. She's playing dirty and isn't likely to stop. What are you waiting for?"
In short, I basically said that divorcing is against my principles; it's not about unrealistic dreamworld hope, but about why I don't and shouldn't fight in court with a "sister" in Christ. I will contest with an ex parte solely to protect myself and hopefully our son, but I won't go down the divorce path -- my wife is using that as her offensive, not me.
Sorry in advance for my ramblings. It's all over the place today.
To add to the above: I'm going to have to keep my house locked when she comes to pick our son up. What's the world come to when I have to keep my place secure from my own wife?
UPDATE 6pm
Two things:
a. Will be emailing my wife (along with a running bill of childcare expenses) tonight with the following message:
"Hi Wife, in the upcoming move to SC, I was wondering if we can reform E's schedule to be more balanced (i.e. 50:50) between us? If you prefer, we can set aside some time to discuss this more indepthly.
- Alamo"
What do y'all think? I will send this out tonight. I've been praying hard about this.
b. Feel like a stupid doofus for a silly snafu I made when my wife came to pick our son up. After all the ruckus that's going on (see my previous posts), I have had friends/family advise me to keep 911 on speed-dial or to lock my doors when my wife comes. A bit much I thought, but today when we came out our usual garage access door to meet mommy, one of us must've accidentally locked the knob (this is not the first time I've locked myself out; it's probably the 3rd or 4th time). After handing over our son into his mom's arms, I remembered that his half-eaten apple was still in the house. So when I realized I locked myself out, I grabbed the key that hangs by the door to open it. My wife sees this, scoffingly laughs and says: "Are you THAT afraid of me? You afraid that I might take your $20 that you'd make off the garage sale?" I stupidly played along and said, "I'm protecting my privacy."
W: I went in to get my stuff because you obviously weren't going to give it back.
M: You came into my house without permission. I said that I will going through the things in the garage and sort them out, but you were impatient.
W: I told you long time ago.
M: You told me 2 days (fact: 3/5/12) before you came into the house.
W: Oh, I'm quite sure it was longer than that.
That was the gist of the conversation and I'm sick to my stomach. Again.
UPDATE
My wife responded to my email above with this message:
"Hi Alamo,
I'm not really sure what this means. Are you moving to SC. Are you staying in California?"
That's all she wrote. I'm not sure how best to reply. I don't want to sound as if I am giving her an ultimatum, as in, "if you don't give us 50:50 share of our son, then I'm not going to consider moving to SC AND I'm going to file for an ex parte, by the way."
I was thinking something like this: "Wife, my first option is to move to SC. I do hope, however, that we can work together to create a 50:50 plan for our son."
What do you think?
Sorry I haven't been watching your thread, alamo...
Geeze she baited you and you took it... oh well, no big deal in the bigger picture I suppose...
How long ago did she respond?
The reality is, it seems she's hyper sensitive right now. Could be because of the impending doom. She's begging for a fight to remind her of why she's chosen her path.
I think that no matter how you respond, she is going to attack you... I don't have any real suggestions right now, but how might you respond that is not "more of the same"...? Now might be a great way to display a major 180.
She's bunkered in and holed up tight... you can either keep on the same path... or stop playing her game by her rules... and still not go on the attack...
She just responded tonight, if that counts for anything.
For me, it does count. Because it took me a long time to get used to not responding right away. Because when I did respond quickly, it generally was emotion based and maybe not quite as well thought out as it should have been.
Not that there are perfect ways of saying what we mean or feel.
Just rather that we actually DO NOT say things in the emotion.
So all I'm saying here is, you might say exactly the same thing two days from now. Just wait for a couple days and see if you want to say the same thing...
You might... just give it some time... it doesn't need to be responded to right now...
Make sense?
I think you've done pretty good, but you still weren't practised enough to not take her bait. Use this as an opportunity to practice biting your tongue.
Then... you might respond something to the effect of...
"I am thinking about SC. I am still trying to consider how 50:50 might work and would prefer it over any other option."
OK, I can imagine 50:50 would be hugely difficult if you didn't go to SC. But it will come across as using your S and the courts if you don't get what you want.
Take SC out of the equation. She may bring it up as an ultimatum as well.
But this is about both of you wrapping your heads around 50:50... no matter HOW it might work...
again... make sense...?
Kaffe, when you write "make sense?", you almost sound like 25! And that's a compliment.
Anyway, last night I responded to my wife's email per Kaffe's suggestion. I think my initial thoughts as well as the final message were pretty on par, i.e. not much negative emotions tied to them.
If she doesn't give me a reply, I will bring it up again in a week or two through email. If she refuses or doesn't respond again, I will begin the ex parte process. Boooo...
Today I have to admit that I'm emotionally drained. This past week as part of our new Bible class assignment, we made it a point to pray for people (family, friends, "enemies) who are important in our lives. I've been doing this for the past year or so, but having dedicated prayers, say, for my wife has taken a lot out of me. I love her, yet it's so hard nowadays, you know what I mean?
UPDATE 8am
I had a question for our son's daycare provider today and I was told that our son wouldn't be going in to school today. She said my wife had texted her yesterday (Sunday). What?!? Why wasn't I kept in the loop.
So I texted my wife is our son was okay because I heard that he wasn't going to school. Her response was, "Oh ya, was just about to txt you. I just had the day off so kept him home. "
I feel like I need to catch her on not keeping me informed in the first place, but I'm not sure what to write. I was supposed to pick our son up from school and my wife hasn't bothered to arrange that either.
I believe you can only D in the state where you M.
False. You can divorce where you own property or where you reside (established usually within 6 months although less in Nevada, for example, OR where the child resides, among other places. )
States may vie for jurisdiction and often do. Sometimes the first to file (in whichever state that is) takes precedence.
States may also share some aspects of the divorce such as custody.
The state the child lives in ALWAYS has an interest in the child's welfare, even if another state ruled.
But so Might another state (for instance where the primary caregiver lived/lives)...
I'll finish your thread now...
UPDATE 8am
I had a question for our son's daycare provider today and I was told that our son wouldn't be going in to school today. She said my wife had texted her yesterday (Sunday). What?!? Why wasn't I kept in the loop.
So I texted my wife is our son was okay because I heard that he wasn't going to school. Her response was, "Oh ya, was just about to txt you. I just had the day off so kept him home. "
Hey, pick your battles carefully. Son got one on one time with a parent, insted of daycare, and that is a good thing, right?
Why assume she would NOT tell you that you did not have to pick him up? She just said she was about to text you.
I think Assuming the worst of our spouses does not help the situation (but preparing for it, legally, DOES help)
which brings me to 2 points Alamo.
From what you wrote here, I was not clear that you only had 30% custody and yet, she was in medical training and some of that time you were not employed. Why didn't you have him more?
Also I'm still not clear on what your goals are re custody or moving. You just started a new job
and now you MAY move to SC, but then you got vague on what that would take for you to do. (Vague with HER anyhow...)
It's crucial that you speak with clarity when you communicate with her or you will sound weak.
I don't mean for you to sound controlling but I DO Mean for you to sound more sure of yourself.
You are not "asking" her for a favor, you are asserting your rights as a father.
Finally, why did you keep all of the tax refund? Appears punitive/wrong and besides,
wasnt' she the main breadwinner?
Alamo, I've been on your side this whole time.
But I can only tell you that if I were in her shoes, and if I have my facts straight,
I'd have seen that as hugely negative. Don't know what your goal was there.
I feel like I need to catch her on not keeping me informed in the first place, but I'm not sure what to write. I was supposed to pick our son up from school and my wife hasn't bothered to arrange that either.
hmmm
first you know how the need to "catch her on this" sounds to me, right?
Yeah, like the old angry petty Alamo...
And btw,
exactly what is to arrange, if she has him? You Just don't pick him up at daycare.
When is your time scheduled with him? Does this clearly interfere with that? IF so, let her know you'll pick him up at the usual time.
No blame or anger...just factual statements.
Alamo:
Its good you are now working and have a good job.
But now your wife is planning on moving to SC and you are worried that your time with your son is going to be affected. I can definitely understand your situation.
But when you send her email about the 50/50 custody, better plan on what you plan to do to get that 50/50 custody. Like either moving to SC to find a job close to your W.
Seems like your not changing is a common thing that your W brings up. Now it could be that she just likes to egg you on, for which you cannot do much but stand strong and calm. If not, maybe you can see what you can change so that she sees you in a different light
Just a suggestion. when my Wife filed it was just me working. But i still split our 2010 tax returns with her 50/50 because i wanted her to know that i value my honor and word over money. I should say that it did help.
Good luck man.
UPDATE 8am
I had a question for our son's daycare provider today and I was told that our son wouldn't be going in to school today. She said my wife had texted her yesterday (Sunday). What?!? Why wasn't I kept in the loop.
So I texted my wife is our son was okay because I heard that he wasn't going to school. Her response was, "Oh ya, was just about to txt you. I just had the day off so kept him home. "
Hey, pick your battles carefully. Son got one on one time with a parent, insted of daycare, and that is a good thing, right?
Why assume she would NOT tell you that you did not have to pick him up? She just said she was about to text you.
I think Assuming the worst of our spouses does not help the situation (but preparing for it, legally, DOES help)
which brings me to 2 points Alamo.
From what you wrote here, I was not clear that you only had 30% custody and yet, she was in medical training and some of that time you were not employed. Why didn't you have him more?
Also I'm still not clear on what your goals are re custody or moving. You just started a new job
and now you MAY move to SC, but then you got vague on what that would take for you to do. (Vague with HER anyhow...)
It's crucial that you speak with clarity when you communicate with her or you will sound weak.
I don't mean for you to sound controlling but I DO Mean for you to sound more sure of yourself.
You are not "asking" her for a favor, you are asserting your rights as a father.
Finally, why did you keep all of the tax refund? Appears punitive/wrong and besides,
wasnt' she the main breadwinner?
Alamo, I've been on your side this whole time.
But I can only tell you that if I were in her shoes, and if I have my facts straight,
I'd have seen that as hugely negative. Don't know what your goal was there.
I feel like I need to catch her on not keeping me informed in the first place, but I'm not sure what to write. I was supposed to pick our son up from school and my wife hasn't bothered to arrange that either.
hmmm
first you know how the need to "catch her on this" sounds to me, right?
Yeah, like the old angry petty Alamo...
And btw,
exactly what is to arrange, if she has him? You Just don't pick him up at daycare.
When is your time scheduled with him? Does this clearly interfere with that? IF so, let her know you'll pick him up at the usual time.
No blame or anger...just factual statements. I agree 25. I have let slip my resolute self. For some reason I've allowed my emotions affect my judgement and demeanor. BY doing so, I've allowed myself to be like putty in my wife's hands. Time to get cracking on the skills that I seemed to have such a firm grasp as little as 6 months ago.
Perhaps I'm also on edge as much as she is, in lieu of her move.
SO... to answer some of your questions and concerns:
- I was trying to ask if I should "catch her on this", similar to how you've suggested "calling her on this crap" back in Feb and even many times before that. For once, I thought I felt like I needed to spotlight what my wife was doing, rather than letting it go. Within that context, I've noticed that my wife's level of communication with me (which used to be minimal) has turned to almost zero in the past couple of months.
- Taxes. Like myKarma, I was the sole breadwinner last year. Her income were through her loans and perhaps financial support from her parents. She hasn't had a paycheck since 2007. I told my wife that she can have the money BUT only when she's within the family unit, not outside. I might be misguided, but my principle is -- just like everything else -- my wife left this family. She lost privilege to anything she left behind. The example I like to use is like when someone leaves their job (quit, retired, laid off or even a no-show), the company requires that they leave company property behind. There was a contract signed when the "relationship" started and when you end that, you take your things, but you leave behind whatever was created during that "relationship". A little off topic: As much as I've liked to have put that refund into savings, like clockwork (like my life couldn't get more complicated) my car transmission decided to die, and my cellphone went south, all while recovering financially from being between work (it was a short period, but California is bloody expensive!). Needless to say, it was useful.
- Why I have 30% time with our son. Answer: It was self-imposed by my wife when she first left the house. I journaled about it here, I recall; it was probably one of my first few posts. I called 911 but I was told that they can't take action because there was no legal bindings in place at that time. Initially I created a parenting schedule, but she refused to sign it. Last week she came back and told me that I had actually agreed on that time ratio when she asked and only started requesting 50:50 when I obtained a lawyer. To the former, I'm quite sure that I was still in a fog/daze/disillusionment over the whole incident. I felt powerless, so even if what my wife says is true, I didn't know what to do. To the latter, I did NOT begin asking for 50:50 only when I got a lawyer. I started hearing friends/books/articles to take stock of how much time our son is with his mom. A fact that I didn't know at that point was when they said that I needed to count the time our son is at daycare as well. So put that altogether and we have 70:30 in favor of my wife. Ever since then, I've asked her numerous times (in writing) to consider something more balanced, but she has refused to even offer me an answer.
All said, I want to thank you 25/MK and so many others for checking in on my thread this week. Those 2x4s are great reminders to me that I have much to work on. AND, I always appreciate a wise lady's perspective. Sometimes I forget to see it from my wife's perspective. Sometimes I forget that my wife was/is a wife of a recovering porn addict and that in itself brings a lot of its own kind of pain/hurt with it.
Love you guys.
UPDATE 8am
I had a question for our son's daycare provider today and I was told that our son wouldn't be going in to school today. She said my wife had texted her yesterday (Sunday). What?!? Why wasn't I kept in the loop.
So I texted my wife is our son was okay because I heard that he wasn't going to school. Her response was, "Oh ya, was just about to txt you. I just had the day off so kept him home. "
Hey, pick your battles carefully. Son got one on one time with a parent, insted of daycare, and that is a good thing, right?
Why assume she would NOT tell you that you did not have to pick him up? She just said she was about to text you.
I think Assuming the worst of our spouses does not help the situation (but preparing for it, legally, DOES help)
which brings me to 2 points Alamo.
From what you wrote here, I was not clear that you only had 30% custody and yet, she was in medical training and some of that time you were not employed. Why didn't you have him more?
Also I'm still not clear on what your goals are re custody or moving. You just started a new job
and now you MAY move to SC, but then you got vague on what that would take for you to do. (Vague with HER anyhow...)
It's crucial that you speak with clarity when you communicate with her or you will sound weak.
I don't mean for you to sound controlling but I DO Mean for you to sound more sure of yourself.
You are not "asking" her for a favor, you are asserting your rights as a father.
Finally, why did you keep all of the tax refund? Appears punitive/wrong and besides,
wasnt' she the main breadwinner?
Alamo, I've been on your side this whole time.
But I can only tell you that if I were in her shoes, and if I have my facts straight,
I'd have seen that as hugely negative. Don't know what your goal was there.
I feel like I need to catch her on not keeping me informed in the first place, but I'm not sure what to write. I was supposed to pick our son up from school and my wife hasn't bothered to arrange that either.
hmmm
first you know how the need to "catch her on this" sounds to me, right?
Yeah, like the old angry petty Alamo...
And btw,
exactly what is to arrange, if she has him? You Just don't pick him up at daycare.
When is your time scheduled with him? Does this clearly interfere with that? IF so, let her know you'll pick him up at the usual time.
No blame or anger...just factual statements. I agree 25. I have let slip my resolute self. For some reason I've allowed my emotions affect my judgement and demeanor. BY doing so, I've allowed myself to be like putty in my wife's hands. Time to get cracking on the skills that I seemed to have such a firm grasp as little as 6 months ago.
Perhaps I'm also on edge as much as she is, in lieu of her move.
Yes I sense that^^^, maybe in both of you.SO... to answer some of your questions and concerns:
- I was trying to ask if I should "catch her on this", similar to how you've suggested "calling her on this crap" back in Feb and even many times before that. For once, I thought I felt like I needed to spotlight what my wife was doing, rather than letting it go
Big difference between looking petty and showing self respect. (Hence the phrase "pick your battles" wisely.
Here,
1) what she did was not harmful or selfish to you in any way AND it benefitted son (son got a whole day of one on one time with his mom)
2)**SURE IF she had not ever called you to say "don't pick son up" THEN you could call her on that. But you were pouncing on her (or wanting to) for something she had not yet done/omitted doing. This was morning and you didn't need notice of their day for several hours.
. Within that context, I've noticed that my wife's level of communication with me (which used to be minimal) has turned to almost zero in the past couple of months.
- Taxes.
Like myKarma, I was the sole breadwinner last year.
UNlike mykarma, you did not share the refund. And Aren't you asking her to pay you alimony or child support?
Her income were through her loans and perhaps financial support from her parents. She hasn't had a paycheck since 2007.
How'd you pay bills when YOU were Unemployed? So SHE borrowed the money for school AND to keep everyone afloat and SHE will pay those debts off herself?
I told my wife that she can have the money BUT only when she's within the family unit, not outside. I might be misguided, but my principle is -- just like everything else -- my wife left this family. She lost privilege to anything she left behind.
IMHO
YES you are misguided. Sorry Alamo, but Perhaps it is a cultural thing in your country, whereby if a woman dares leave a marriage even when the h owns the fact that he pushed her away, and even if he didn't cherish or honor her....she gets nothing ...b/c she dared to leave...
but in the US we share assets accumulated together regardless of who "earned" it b/c it's a team effort when children are involved.
IT'd be different if you won the lottery and the divorce was final, but those were assets earned during the marriage. Most states say do it fairly or equitably or straight 50/50.
Your words paint a plan that sounds as if you were "Teaching her a lesson for going" which is not a spouses's job. OR you were punishing her, by making her pay for leaving you, (literally.)
Grand scheme of things those^^^ actions push your goals farther from you
Alamo, what is different about you now than before, vis a vis your wife?
That is the only question that matters. IF all she sees is THIS type of behavior after all your work
then it's not so shocking that she'd want to get away somewhere.
When you were not working, did you have your son more? How'd YOU only get 30% custody with her horrible hours?
The example I like to use is like when someone leaves their job (quit, retired, laid off or even a no-show), the company requires that they leave company property behind. There was a contract signed when the "relationship" started and when you end that, you take your things, but you leave behind whatever was created during that "relationship".
Wow...except
1) this was a spiritual commitment and relationship that was based on vows to "love & cherish, forsaking all others,"
and
2) this was a MARRIAGE that brought a new life to the world...creating a FAMILY.
So it's NOT a contract with a company.
IF IT WERE a contract between 2 people to honor their vows, well Alamo, I don't have amnesia and now is no time for you to get it either.
YOU told us you were depressed, not working for months at a time, AND by your self description you were a porn addict.
Your w repeatedly pleaded with you to stop.
But you did NOT stop until after she left you... I don't say all this to rehash the past...I Don't!
But you are erasing the past and seeing it through a lens that keeps you OFF course and gets foggy about what role YOU played in getting here.
SOME of your interactions with your w are not great on your end...
you can do better.
You are better than that.
I think your assessment of why she gets nothing and how she wronged you and how SHE broke up the family, is unfair and too biased. It doesn't help your cause although it may feel easier in the short run to just blame her.
Thing is, WE the LBSer stays stuck then. WE repeat our mistakes with the WAS or with the next r
b/c we failed to learn the most important lesson of DBing which is to become the best person WE can become...
If you cannot see things from your w's perspective, even if you do not agree, you have to have empathy for her viewpoint...
or you two will never get anywhere....A little off topic:
As much as I've liked to have put that refund into savings, like clockwork (like my life couldn't get more complicated) my car transmission decided to die, and my cellphone went south, all while recovering financially from being between work (it was a short period, but California is bloody expensive!). Needless to say, it was useful.
All^^^ off topic. Half the money was hers in the eyes of the law. She knows it.
She resents it. You fueled the resentment.- Why I have 30% time with our son. Answer: It was
self-imposed by my wife when she first left the house. I journaled about it here, I recall; it was probably one of my first few posts. I
called 911 but I was told that they can't take action because there was no legal bindings in place at that time. Initially I created a parenting schedule,
but she refused to sign it.
see how your ^^^ passivity allows you to blame her for the arrangement, and take no ownership for not getting 50% custody? This has been going on for how long now? You never filed anything to get half custody? Have you now?
You can't blame her if she makes the decisions and you let her.
"Self imposed" --no that was something SHE imposed ON YOU
and YOU ALLOWED...and you don't get to hold her accountable for your actions or lack thereof...
Last week she came back and told me that I had actually agreed on that time ratio when she asked and only started requesting 50:50 when I obtained a lawyer. So what? I think what
she's arguing is that you did nothing all these months to get more time w/son, (other than perhaps suggest it to her, or vaguely ask permission, and or give her all the power/responsibility??)
but you took NO ACTION until now, so I guess your response is that you were not aware of your legal rights back then...or what?
BTW when a woman has the power in a relationship it is usually a BURDEN to her...
To the former, I'm quite sure that I was still in a fog/daze/disillusionment over the whole incident. I felt powerless, so even if what my wife says is true, I didn't know what to do. To the latter, I did NOT begin asking for 50:50 only when I got a lawyer. I started hearing friends/books/articles to take stock of how much time our son is with his mom. A fact that I didn't know at that point was when they said that I needed to count the time our son is at daycare as well. So put that altogether and we have 70:30 in favor of my wife.
Ever since then, I've asked her numerous times (in writing) to consider something more balanced, but she has refused to even offer me an answer.
Here you are still making it all HER choice and guess what? She chose to ignore your "Powerless" requests, probably BECAUSE they were powerless b/c you gave her ALL the power/responsibilities in the r after you two split
or in her eyes even before?? Just asking...
for all these reasons, that's why I urged you to get a L so often and a long time ago.
I may be wrong on this, but I don't think you can blame your w for asserting her legal rights and protecting her legal interests, when you could have done the same thing but chose not to....
All said, I want to thank you 25/MK and so many others for checking in on my thread this week. Those 2x4s are great reminders to me that I have much to work on. AND, I always appreciate a wise lady's perspective. Sometimes I forget to see it from my wife's perspective.
Sometimes I forget that my wife was/is a wife of a recovering porn addict and that in itself brings a lot of its own kind of pain/hurt with it.Love you guys.
I know it pains you and shames you. Perhaps that is why you'd rather see HER in the worst possible light.
But this is not a contest. You can be a recovering good guy and your w can be a struggling new doctor and neither of you "MUST" be wrong...(btw, an OB has almost NO control over her schedule if she wants to deliver babies. I "fired" my last one b/c 3 appointments in a row were interrupted by baby deliveries. I liked her but I knew I was falling through the cracks in her care, so I chose a GYN who no longer delivers babies so I could get an ovarian tumor removed...)
Alamo, We all have our demons. You actually can identify yours, and work on it, so that puts you ahead of most people.
Be empowered by that knowledge, & knowing you will never be that guy again.
Just so I know, have you ever clearly told her you are sorry for how it must have made HER FEEL as a woman?
If you do so now, make sure you don't attach an expectation or request to it. It's just your desire that she knows that you get it, and you are sorry.
We all want to avoid a guilty conscience by staying on course as best we can. NO one is immune to mistakes and we all feel regret about some of our choices...
but don't wallow in shame b/c it's not healthy or helpful, and
shame can be paralyzing --
and that prevents growth and improvement.
Back in the saddle Alamo, don't lose the hard earned progress you've made with more backslides. You have a few months to
BE the REAL YOU NOW...
and make sure you are legally protected. I think she'll respect you more than if you don't hire one...even with the anger she may feel, you need her to respect you or you'll never get anywhere w/her, AND son will see it.
Stay strong.
((( )))
It seems like my head and heart has been topsy-turvy. But first, I need to clarify a few things and recap on the history of our marriage and the separation:
- Left my career and home country Xmas 2003 and came to small (college) town Texas.
- Went through major culture shock (but was in self-denial about it). My future wife tried to help me, but I turned to porn in my private time alone.
- My fiance was also going through a bad bout with her parents. Later we found out through therapy that she was a victim of emotional incest by her parents.
- My fiance confronted me the first time when she found porn on my computer, I was aggressive and very angry. I threw a shoe across the room and held her against the wall (just like her father did to her mom, according to my wife)
- Married December 2004. The damage was already done due to my addiction, disrespect of my wife and my low self-esteem; I didn't see it at that time, but even our honeymoon was a disaster.
- Despite pre-marital counseling and my promise to not use porn, I still used it. I was back to it even after the honeymoon. I was a POS; I didn't know what was truly important, i.e. God and my wife and I forsook both in a big way.
- 2005, we both started separate (same counselor) counseling sessions. I tried to deal with my addiction, she tried to deal with her past/parents/psychological damage. Shortly after, she decided to break all contact with her parents, and this went on for 6 years.
- Had a hard time finding work. Part of me couldn't handle the disparity of coming from a great career to a small college town (and as an alien) where I could only work as an illegal in Chinese restaurants or door-to-door sales. My wife was always the one who pushed me out the door to find work.
- My wife confronted me many more times (once a year) over the next 6-plus years when she found evidence of me using porn. I would always first deny, then lie and get angry. Rinse and repeat. We were both caught in a vicious cycle.
- 2006, graduated from college and stayed a year to work and find out my wife's next steps (or more precisely, which med school she'd be accepted).
- 2007, moved to North Bay, CA for wife to pursue medical school. She wanted to be in family practice w/ OB-Gyn emphasis.
- I had a hard time finding work, even here in CA. It was a bad year for the economy. No production engineering work (which I was back in Malaysia) here; they'd moved to China. God opened a door in the training world and I took it. It was only a contract job, but we needed the money.
- Not long after moving here, we found out that we were pregnant.
- Planned for a home birth. After a 30-hour labor, had to go to the hospital. One of my wife's ongoing resentment with me is for not stepping in when she felt that the midwife was screwing up the home birth. I followed along because I felt the midwife (as tired as she was) knew what she was doing, more than I did.
- My job contract ended in Dec 2007, and I hunted until I finally found another training-related position in June 2008.
- Aug 2008, our bundle of joy was born! My parents came to help for 6 months. My wife grew to resent me (and my parents) more because I didn't stand up for her when she wanted certain things done a certain way, but my parents did otherwise. I saw it more as misinterpretation on both sides. Nonetheless, I sat down with my parents to talk about it, but according to my wife I should've done right off the bat.
- My bouts of addiction was still happening once every few months. I was growing tired of it personally; I knew it was a very bad thing, I knew it was serving me/us no purpose, but I still didn't let go. I still didn't have the resolve to say: "Stop. No more."
- Moved to a nice home in Dec 2009 closer to my wife's school. Even with our issues - my addiction, my wife's crazy school schedule/stress, a growing child, etc - I thought we were making strides to be stronger. The hold of porn was getting weaker in me. Our sex life was getting more and more passionate. Our date nights were consistent again. But then...
- May 2010. Company downsizing led to me and most of my department being let go.
- June 2010. Wife tells me that she's separating from me. She says it boils down to two reasons: I'm always going to be addicted, and that I'll never be able to keep a job. Says she's been apathetic for a year now. She took the master bedroom while I took the guest room (my first weak resolve; she CHOSE to check out of this marriage, she should be the one staying anywhere else except the masterbedroom.)
- I lose all sense of direction.
- Feb 2011. Wife moves out with our son.
- Mar 2011. Wife files for divorce. I respond a month later w/o a lawyer, not really by choice, but because I was jobless. I also move to a smaller place and close to our son.
- Quit my job Nov 2011 (because I was unhappy and for once the economy had picked up enough that I could shop around for another one) and found a new one in Jan 2012.
- Feb 2012. My wife informs me that she is moving to SC for residency and is taking our son with her. She says that I'm welcomed to move there too.
There are many other nitty-gritty details in between that definitely play into the whole picture since we married, but that's probably too much right now.
FYI, while together, her loans were NOT taken to keep us afloat. Losing work was usually unexpected and therefore the loans did help, but she/we never took it for living expenses. Unemployment benefits, significant cost-cutting and tax returns helped out quite a bit, though.
After she moved out she did come up with a figure (approx $4500 - I can't remember at the top of my head) that I owed her for the times she helped me and my parents (we lent some to them when their nursery school was hit bad in 2006-7). Since then, she chose not to pay her half of our son's daycare fees, which is fine to me.
Also, my wife is the one who requested alimony and child support. I'm not pursuing any of that.
In terms of the 30% time ratio -- the only way to enforce it, according to my lawyer, is to proceed with the divorce process and go into mediation. You probably have read from my earliest post that my wife wants a divorce, not me. According to some family counseling people I've talked to, one of the biggest turn off to wives (yes, even WAS) is if the husband goes through with the divorce. It shows that they've given up. The days leading up to my wife leaving with our son (in Feb 2011), I was tempted to just hold on tight to him and not let go, but as I journaled here, it was creating a lot of duress with my wife. Back then, when I first started DBing, it felt like the more I did, the more it pushed her away, so I backed off. Plus, she was doing all this hostile conversations in front of our son and I did not want him exposed to that. I'm paying for it now, but at that time, I thought it was prudent to do so.
Marriage as a contract. Well, I can go into the whole spiritual/religious aspect of it all when couples vow to each other before God. True, I respect my side of the vow, but let's not forget that the vow applies to both sides -- through THICK and THIN, through the HIGHEST and the LOWEST and so on. My wife has her own responsibility to uphold her vows. She chose not to. On a spiritual level, God has NOT released us from our vows to Him. He hasn't given up on us, so why should we do the same to Him or each other?
Another FYI - since separation, my wife has changed the reasons why she left me. Last week when she told me I haven't changed, it was about money, she said. That "I still use/keep money behind her back." She also says that I'm a walking liar. I stopped her and said that when she left our home, she said that had enough of my porn addiction and the lies that went with it. It was never about money. I admitted that my lack of work put us in tough situations, but that was never the main issue. She didn't respond to that and changed the topic back to why she's just taking back what she put her effort/money in during our marriage. I responded, "Well, if that's true, I'm right here. Of all the things you spent on our marriage, you invested the most in me." She said, "Money and things can't hurt me."
I replied, "That's true. I can understand how much crap I put you through. But this experience has been good to me...for my addiction and all. In fact, your leaving was the best gift you gave me that brought me to where I am right now." My wife said, "It was the best gift I gave myself too."
Another point: Not to downplay why she left me - I strongly believe that the psychological damage caused by her family created in her (and still does, IMHO) low self-esteem, self-mutilation (she'd cut herself), severe grudges (her parents had cut off ties with their own families. Long story) and a sense of justice (that people own them for the hardship - real or self-justified - they've been put through). This is not speculation or my theory - her parents/family have disowned their parents, god-parents and even children. When I first moved to TX, some people had advised me that if her family had a history of disowning even their own blood, I better not get on their bad side either. Did I listen? No.
before I go on, what the heck is "emotional incest with [your] parents" ?
Meaning what? That One parent relied on her more than he/she should have for "emotional" support?
(That's^^^ Not rare at all.)
"Incest" implies a sexual dimension to the relationship. Such Inflammatory terms...
Is this a diagnosis someone made? And what does it have to do with today?
Okay - now I'll finish the post.
before I go on, what the heck is "emotional incest with [your] parents" ?
Meaning what? That One parent relied on her more than he/she should have for "emotional" support?
(That's^^^ Not rare at all.)
"Incest" implies a sexual dimension to the relationship. Such Inflammatory terms...
Is this a diagnosis someone made? And what does it have to do with today?
Okay - now I'll finish the post.
Yes, it's a proper term, a.k.a. covert sexual abuse. It involves the indirect yet sexualized, emotional abuse of a child or dependent. While no physical boundaries have been crossed and no direct sexual contact has been perpetrated, the parents willingly enlist the emotional support of the child in healing his/her own unmet adult needs (my wife's mom were teens when they married; her mom was physically abused by her father also). In turn, the child becomes the confidant or emotional spouse of a same- sex or opposite sex parent.
Oops, I wrote "True, I respect my side of the vow, but let's not forget that the vow applies to both sides..."
I meant "True, I DID NOT respect my side of the vow..."
Alamo:
I too came to the US as a student in '99, met W and married same year when i was 23 and she was 21.
Since both us were so young and immature, our married life too went through lot of rough patches. There were a lot of dark times from mine and W side.
Until last year, i did find myself paying a lot attention to how i contributed to the demise. While that introspection was good, I also found myself to wallow in it.
If there's one big thing i learnt over last year, it is to recognize your mistakes, but don't relive them everyday. That is hell. Acknowledge them and move on and remember not to repeat them. If you do, then don't kill yourself over it. We are after all human. Personally i feel that the trick is not let our past become this chain tied to us. Always try to move on positively in life and believe me, things will change for the good. Forgive yourself, forgive your wife and move on.
It seems like my head and heart has been topsy-turvy. But first, I need to clarify a few things and recap on the history of our marriage and the separation:
- Left my career and home country Xmas 2003 and came to small (college) town Texas.
Why did you come? Did you already know your w?
Where did you guys meet? How long did you date?
- Went through major culture shock (but was in self-denial about it).
My future wife tried to help me, but I turned to porn in my private time alone.
- My fiance was also going through a bad bout with her parents. Later we found out through therapy that she was a victim of emotional incest by her parents.
- My fiance confronted me the first time when she found porn on my computer, I was aggressive and very angry. I threw a shoe across the room and held her against the wall (just like her father did to her mom, according to my wife)
Well....thanks for the honesty. I didn't know the way you reacted to her discovery. Wow...
At that time you were not ashamed, you were pissed, correct? (At least that is what SHE saw?.) How would you react to her discovering something like that, NOW?
- Married December 2004. The damage was already done due to my addiction, disrespect of my wife and my low self-esteem; I didn't see it at that time, but even our honeymoon was a disaster.
what did you think was going on inside the m? And IS she American?
- Despite pre-marital counseling and my promise to not use porn, I still used it. I was back to it even after the honeymoon.
So it's fair to say there is a track record of doing something that really hurt her, then lying about it and then promising not to do it again, a promise which you broke. Okay...she is still hurt and angry.
I was a POS; I didn't know what was truly important, i.e. God and my wife and I forsook both in a big way.
- 2005, we both started separate (same counselor) counseling sessions. I tried to deal with my addiction,
how? What changes did you make then? Were you able to stop?
she tried to deal with her past/parents/psychological damage. Shortly after, she decided to break all contact with her parents, and this went on for 6 years.
ok that^^^ sounds like a healthy response of hers, supported by her counselor, right?
- Had a hard time finding work. Part of me couldn't handle the disparity of coming from a great career to a small college town (and as an alien)
so you resented the downgrade you agreed to by moving there, or were you blindsided by it?
where I could only work as an illegal in Chinese restaurants or door-to-door sales. My wife was always the one who pushed me out the door to find work.
not sure what this^^^ means. Are you legally a resident or not? You got unemployment insurance so I assume you are legally present.
And isn't it natural she'd want you to work or go to school or do something? You were depressed and unhappy. That was harming the m. She was working hard and pregnant and you guys needed money.
Again, I'm not sure why you found yourself in a place offering you so little, only to be unhappy about it & react in a destructive way too.
Also not sure how you two chose to marry in the first place...any insights there?
- My wife confronted me many more times (once a year) over the next 6-plus years when she found evidence of me using porn. I would always first deny, then lie and get angry. Rinse and repeat. We were both caught in a vicious cycle.
well, YOU were "caught" repeatedly, which I guess IS a cycle.
But you still did not stop. That was very hurtful & very frustrating for her I'm sure. So what did your Ind counselling achieve?
- 2006, graduated from college and stayed a year to work and find out my wife's next steps (or more precisely, which med school she'd be accepted).
So, I'm confused. YOU graduated from college or she did? NOT Sure what all this means.
- 2007, moved to North Bay, CA for wife to pursue medical school. She wanted to be in family practice w/ OB-Gyn emphasis.
- I had a hard time finding work, even here in CA. It was a bad year for the economy. No production engineering work (which I was back in Malaysia) here; they'd moved to China. God opened a door in the training world and I took it. It was only a contract job, but we needed the money.
so you DID find work? Did you find any work at all while in Texas, other than delivery work? Did you have a college degree then?
- Not long after moving here, we found out that we were pregnant.
- Planned for a home birth. After a 30-hour labor, had to go to the hospital. One of my wife's ongoing resentment with me is for not stepping in when she felt that the midwife was screwing up the home birth. I followed along because I felt the midwife (as tired as she was) knew what she was doing, more than I did.
so she did not feel protected by you or that you fought for her? And this still bothers her?
Have you ever apologized for hurting her, however unintentional?
It IS very scary to deliver a baby, esp your first. I find her desire for a home birth WHILE wanting to be an OB, surprising. Was that HER choice or yours?
My paternal grandmother and aunt both died in childbirth. It can get very scary to be in a lot of pain and assume it means danger. Which it may...
- My job contract ended in Dec 2007, and I hunted until I finally found another training-related position in June 2008.
So she saw you unemployed for 6 months, while she was pregnant and in medical school? Just asking to clarify.
I was pregnant my 3rd year of law school and it ain't easy. I ended up finishing law school at night but if I'd had more than one semester left, I am not sure we could have done it.
- Aug 2008, our bundle of joy was born! My parents came to help for 6 months. My wife grew to resent me (and my parents) more because I didn't stand up for her when she wanted certain things done a certain way, but my parents did otherwise. I saw it more as misinterpretation on both sides.
Alamo, I'm sorry. But I completely agree with your wife here. NO parent, NO PARENT - should stay with an adult child that long, OR
with a couple who just became parents, b/c they MUST FIRST bond together and form THEIR own family...
unless the parent lives with them and that only happens when BOTH spouses agree to have an inlaw live there.
Never heard of any inlaw staying that long...OMG...and it so much worse when there's a new baby.
A parent can visit for a week or two TO HELP w/childcare or housework, not take over or disagree or make trouble.
The FIRST sign of trouble, they go.
Your wife did NOT get to decide or control who was in her home just as she became a new mother.
Alamo, It's NOT a "misinterpretation on both sides". it's You being conflict avoidant
AND not putting your wife first or getting your parents to leave so you 3 could bond as a family unit on your own. This was very damaging, imo.
Even now, I am not sure you can see that. Do you?
Nonetheless, I sat down with my parents to talk about it, but according to my wife I should've done right off the bat.
agreed.. Do you see that you waited too long to avoid conflict, and that your avoidance of dealing with it, actually worsened the situation? I'm not sure you get it yet.
- My bouts of addiction was still happening once every few months. I was growing tired of it personally; I knew it was a very bad thing, I knew it was serving me/us no purpose, but I still didn't let go. I still didn't have the resolve to say: "Stop. No more."
what can I say? Thanks for the honesty but my gut says she knew it was still happening and
she had no reason to believe you'd change. She probably wanted to see if she could accept the porn in the marriage, or if you'd get a job you liked, but she could not accept the porn and she began to feel you were not a good provider...
*** The 2 things people want in their spouses are as follows:
Men want their w's to 1) be attractive, and 2) have peace in their home (presumably means no nagging or yelling)
whereas
wives most value in h's #1) Security and #2) Fidelity.
Security means marrying a good provider so that a woman and her baby can count on dad to "bring home the meat". I think it's also feeling safe physically, AND that she will be protected by her h.
Fidelity means forsaking others...
Think about that.
- Moved to a nice home in Dec 2009 closer to my wife's school. Even with our issues - my addiction, my wife's crazy school schedule/stress, a growing child, etc - I thought we were making strides to be stronger. The hold of porn was getting weaker in me. Our sex life was getting more and more passionate. Our date nights were consistent again. But then...
- May 2010. Company downsizing led to me and most of my department being let go.
- June 2010. Wife tells me that she's separating from me. She says it boils down to two reasons: I'm always going to be addicted, and that I'll never be able to keep a job.
Ahem, no offense but, she has a point. What have you done that disproves or at least undermines these opinions of hers? Have you changed? How so?
Says she's been apathetic for a year now. She took the master bedroom while I took the guest room (my first weak resolve; she CHOSE to check out of this marriage, she should be the one staying anywhere else except the masterbedroom.)
-I don't know what you are arguing here^^^. That she inexplicably kicked you out or what?
Or that you were angry at first, like you were whenever she discovered more porn?
- I lose all sense of direction.
- Feb 2011. Wife moves out with our son.
- Mar 2011. Wife files for divorce. I respond a month later w/o a lawyer, not really by choice, but because I was jobless. I also move to a smaller place and close to our son.
how'd you move or pay for it or rent something, if you could not hire a L for 2 hours, to read your legal paperwork?
Were you just being conflict avoidant and passive again? Are you in a place that surprises you now?
Looking back, now, can you see how YOU GOT here?
It wasn't always by actions you took but also by actions you did not take.
- Quit my job Nov 2011 (because I was unhappy and for once the economy had picked up enough that I could shop around for another one) and found a new one in Jan 2012.
so you got a job, but then quit? And two months later you got another one.
You see how that Plays right into her negative image of you, right?
While you were working, did you hire a lawyer to represent you?
- Feb 2012. My wife informs me that she is moving to SC for residency and is taking our son with her. She says that I'm welcomed to move there too.
There are many other nitty-gritty details in between that definitely play into the whole picture since we married, but that's probably too much right now.
FYI, while together, her loans were NOT taken to keep us afloat. Losing work was usually unexpected and therefore the loans did help, but she/we never took it for living expenses. Unemployment benefits, significant cost-cutting and tax returns helped out quite a bit, though.
After she moved out she did come up with a figure (approx $4500 - I can't remember at the top of my head) that I owed her for the times she helped me and my parents (we lent some to them when their nursery school was hit bad in 2006-7). Since then, she chose not to pay her half of our son's daycare fees, which is fine to me.
So you guys lent your parents money and they lived with you
or was that a separate time?
FWIW, with your dire finances and inconsistent work history, how do you feel that lending your parents money you really didn't have, made your wife feel?
Also, my wife is the one who requested alimony and child support. I'm not pursuing any of that.
That ^^^ makes more sense now. She will have him more, unless you fight for him. I doubt she'll get alimony for long, if any.
In terms of the 30% time ratio -- the only way to enforce it, according to my lawyer, is to proceed with the divorce process and go into mediation. You probably have read from my earliest post that my wife wants a divorce, not me.
well what is it that you offer her as an alternative to divorce? Be specific and detailed.
And does this legal belief that only by acting, legally, can you assert your rights as a father, mean you'll do nothing but wait and see?
Has that worked for you so far? I'd see it as giving up on son.
I wonder if it's Passive, conflict avoidant and then later you can blame her for leaving.
Any truth in there?
According to some family counseling people I've talked to, one of the biggest turn off to wives (yes, even WAS) is if the husband goes through with the divorce. It shows that they've given up.
once she files for div, which she has, then you doing nothing in response, screams of "giving up" and passively throwing up your hands.
It does NOT send out the message that you are fighting for her or the m or your son.
The days leading up to my wife leaving with our son (in Feb 2011), I was tempted to just hold on tight to him and not let go, but as I journaled here, it was creating a lot of duress with my wife.
Back then, when I first started DBing, it felt like the more I did, the more it pushed her away, so I backed off. Plus, she was doing all this hostile conversations in front of our son and I did not want him exposed to that. I'm paying for it now, but at that time, I thought it was prudent to do so.
Marriage as a contract. Well, I can go into the whole spiritual/religious aspect of it all when couples vow to each other before God. True, I respect my side of the vow, but let's not forget that the vow applies to both sides -- through THICK and THIN, through the HIGHEST and the LOWEST and so on. My wife has her own responsibility to uphold her vows. She chose not to. On a spiritual level, God has NOT released us from our vows to Him. He hasn't given up on us, so why should we do the same to Him or each other?
...Not to enter a contest here, but do you feel you upheld your vows to her?
You don't think you broke them first?
Do you see how she might view it very differently?
Another FYI - since separation, my wife has changed the reasons why she left me.
maybe she's adding to her list b/c I don't see the need for her to change her reasons. The porn thing alone suffices for most women.
But seriously, what difference does it make NOW?
Last week when she told me I haven't changed, it was about money, she said. That "I still use/keep money behind her back."
b/c you kept the tax refund? B/c she didn't know about your new job?
She also says that I'm a walking liar. I stopped her and said that when she left our home, she said that had enough of my porn addiction and the lies that went with it. It was never about money.
actually you wrote above that one of her reasons for leaving was your lack of work. So that's a money thing, isn't it? What's new here?
And keeping the tax refund probably seemed dishonest to her. So maybe that is what she means.
I admitted that my lack of work put us in tough situations, but that was never the main issue.
Who says? And so was it the finances AND OR the porn?
Alamo, Why does this matter NOW?
She didn't respond to that and changed the topic back to why she's just taking back what she put her effort/money in during our marriage. I responded, "Well, if that's true, I'm right here. Of all the things you spent on our marriage, you invested the most in me." She said, "Money and things can't hurt me."
I replied, "That's true. I can understand how much crap I put you through. But this experience has been good to me...for my addiction and all. In fact, your leaving was the best gift you gave me that brought me to where I am right now." My wife said, "It was the best gift I gave myself too."
both^^^ things can be true.
Another point: Not to downplay why she left me -
this whole paragraph below DOES downplay why she left you. She was clear as to why she left, and had good reasons, to be honest.
To me, ALL this stuff below is deflecting from your role, and what YOU can now do ----which is focus solely on yourself and your personal work.
I strongly believe that the psychological damage caused by her family created in her (and still does, IMHO) low self-esteem, self-mutilation (she'd cut herself), severe grudges (her parents had cut off ties with their own families. Long story) and a sense of justice (that people own them for the hardship - real or self-justified - they've been put through). This is not speculation or my theory - her parents/family have disowned their parents, god-parents and even children. When I first moved to TX, some people had advised me that if her family had a history of disowning even their own blood, I better not get on their bad side either. Did I listen? No.
How does ANY of that address your porn, your lying about it, the broken promises to stop it, the anger you expressed to HER, when she discovered yet another betrayal by you,
AND the way you put your parents ahead of her, and her sense that you were not a good provider?
Those were legit reasons for her to feel unloved and uncherished and you admitted it HERE...so what is all this deflecting now? It's
irrelevant (and UNcontrollable) crap...
and None of it addresses the real issues of why she left.
So you are still NOT targetting the right things to work on or talk about or spend your energy on...still.
I don't get it. Where's the DBing? Why would SHE believe YOU have changed?
Help me understand what you think happened.
I've getting the sense that we have something against introverts here! Ha-ha!
In all seriousness, you have a point about me being passive about certain things, especially the legal portion of this whole situation. It's only because I keep getting mix signals from my wife.
One moment she's filing for divorce (and asks for alimony and child support), then she completely backs off the idea (as far as I know). One week she could be angry and resentful, one week she might be mellow-ish and pleasant. One week she might look absolute and strong, one week she might look sad. Trust little of what you see or hear, right. Well, which is which, then?
Every day I'm filled with questions: Why is my wife NOT divorcing me now? She can be done with me for good (relationship-wise, anyway), and considering her move to SC will benefit from the child support and alimony. Or perhaps she doesn't have the time, because at the end of it all, her profession/studies always comes (and came) first. Or maybe she's repeating her familial pattern - breaking off contact with someone, and deal with it at her own time. After all, she did the same with her parents (she got back with them - and her brother/sister only because of the separation, otherwise it would've gone on indefinitely); she also made amends with her step-grandparents back in TX, only because she was leaving Abilene for good).
If I'm not sure of myself of what to do, you are absolutely right. I've been trying to balance passivity (or more accurately in my view, pacifism) with self-preservation. Right now, I don't have her interest in mind...she lost that privilege.
Which brings me to my changes. It's not impossible, but my porn recovery is not something, say, my wife can look at me on the surface and tell that I've changed. Porn is such a secretive and hidden vice that you/she needs to actually be close IN my life to know. When my wife finally left, it really made me look at myself and sparked in me a need for rapid change NOW. I sought counselling, became transparent about it with my entire church, family and friends, had an accountability partner, setup stronger internet/media deterrents, joined porn recovery groups/forums, read books, prayed HARD and reconnected with God (probably the most important part of it all) and, though it's not a usual practice even among porn recovery, I abstained from masturbating (I'm on target to be 365-day free!). Lying always tied in with porn; there no real self-indicator for that, but I do know that when I used to lie to my wife to cover or hide or be sneaky, I'd be filled with guilt. I don't feel that anymore, and it's been a great release off my shoulders.
I've made better, deeper connection with friends (which I never did before during our marriage or ever, for that matter), become way less pessimistic/negative and more humble about life or people, got back in shape and took pride in my appearance, excelled in work and play, changed my wardrobe, took up more spontaneous and outdoor activities (something I haven't been doing as much lately), became more charitable, opened my house for Couch Surfers, I even grew my hair out (I've had a buzz cut since I was 12), etc.
And speaking of excelling in work -- I've always been the passive one, not looking at the big picture. I would get the job done well, but never looking truly forward. I would follow the leader/boss/company to the ends of the earth, even at the expense of being screwed over (such as being looked over for a promotion, etc). So part of my change has been to be great at work, but also seeing opportunities as well as taking pride in my self as an employee for once. When I started with the corporate office of Robert Half early 2011, I made great strides in my work quality, was hired as a full-time after a month (I came in as a contractor), was nominated for two of their annual work excellence awards, BUT I started to pick up on the environment and people around me and I started to realize that this place was too cold, surgical and corporate-y for my blood. For those of you who've been here, you know what I'm talking about. Now the old me would've just stuck with it, if not just for the salary, but I took a chance and started looking forward. The job market was picking up, so I took a leap of faith and left after 9-months when things within the team/department (not related to me) started to heat up.
I knew my wife would see this in a negative light, but I did it for MYSELF. After a long absence, I have ambition again.
I will write me more, but before I go, I'll answer some of your questions, 25:
- My wife and I met in Malaysia; she was on a mission trip and one of the churches she visited was the one my dad preaches in. We hit it off right away and had a long-distance relationship for 1.5 years. She came to spend the summer once in-between that before I came to the US end of 2003. We were married in 12/2004.
- We both graduated in 2006, but stayed for another year while she applied to medical schools. She got accepted to Touro in the DO program in North Bay CA, and so we moved out here in mid 2007.
- I was a quality/production engineer for 5 years before I came Stateside. I had not planned to move to the States so soon. I had told my wife (then girlfriend) when we were dating long-distance that I wanted to work and save a little more before moving anywhere. I was also talking about going to Germany/France to pursue my education and suggested she came too. She was adamant about staying in small-town Abilene TX. She also said she really wanted me there with her, and being in love sure made jumping in after her NOW a snap decision!
- Moving to small-town TX with probably 1 production plant AND a student visa meant that I couldn't continue what I was good at. It was somewhat fresh after 9-11, so Malaysia was black-listed as a Muslim country. The only way I could get in was via a student visa (which is why I was only able to work as a waiter at the Chinese restaurant, for example). Even then, I was rejected one before I was accepted the second time. I was able to obtain a Green Card in 2006 (and I was able to get a job as a service advisor at a Honda dealership). By the time we moved to California in 2007, the economy (and manufacturing in general) was down the tubes, and even if it wasn't, all my engineering certifications had expired. AND even if they weren't expired, the certification standards here are completely different from the ones I obtained in Asia, so it was either I start from scratch education-wise. Believe me, I naively applied from my time in TX till CA and 95% of the employers turned me down due to my "unrecognized" qualifications. That said, I went back to school in TX to obtain a Psychology degree to pursue my dream as an organizational psychologist, so I thankfully I was able to get my foot in the door of that industry.
- My mistake, my parents actually came for 2.5 months. They spent part of it here and part of it with my sister in TX. I later came to realize that even that was long a time to spend under one roof. But I understand (and come from) a cultural perspective where the parents (especially the mom) would wait - as in, a waiter - on the post-natal wife for a month or so. She'd cook special meals and take care of the house/baby when my wife needed to rest/sleep. In hindsight, I could've balanced both alone time with mom/dad/baby and the benefits of having my parents around to help.
- I was able to move and pay for the deposit/1st month's rent to a smaller house in 2011 because the landlords of our previous home knew of our situation and was kind enough to give me the (rather large) initial deposit back in advance 2 weeks before I moved out. Because of that, I was also just able to pay for a 1-hour consultation with my then future lawyer.
Did I miss anything else?
All in all, as a person and father, I feel awesome. Of course, like many of us here, we could use without all this "junk" that's going on around us. It holds me back, makes me second-guess myself sometimes and is stifling.
IMPORTANT UPDATE
Wife sent me her response to my email (warning: long). Most of it is true, yet most of it is not. I had an idea, but only now do I have a clear sense of how my wife's perspective of EVERYTHING I did from day 1 till today has been warped by one thing: Porn. My heart and brain are floored right now, so I'll have to write to this a little later on.
Alamo,
To address the move to South Carolina and your request for 50:50 custody let me bring
up a few points.
Reasons for leaving (not comprehensive, but main points):
Porn with abuse and lying- I spent 6 years being lied to repeatedly about you looking
at porn. This would happen a couple times a year and often occurred more frequently
when you were home during the day (unemployed). When I confronted you, you often
became physical, and I was left with visible bruises. These bruises often alarmed my
classmates and professors in OMT lab as they followed the pattern of fingers. The
abuse became so bad that even when I was 6 months pregnant you pushed me against
the wall bruising my back and stood there cursing me out for not trusting you.
Despite months of couples counseling, and then individual counseling you repeated
your pattern over and over. Even a month before I separated from you I found a c.d.
containing porn bundles that I found on your computer 6 years prior that you had
supposedly deleted off the hard drive. While telling me you were deleting porn that first
time, you were actually making a c.d. that you held on to all these years, through all the counseling and all the promises of change. Finding that c.d. told me no matter what you say, this will never change; every word of devotion and desire for change had all been a facade.
Low work ethic- As you know I was raised with an incredibly strong work ethic. I found
myself flabbergasted with your lack of work. You always have an excuse. Interestingly I
was warned about this before you moved here. Other mission students that had met
you had talked to me about your sketchy work history and informed me that you usually
just worked for your mom. You have a hard time holding a job down, but when I asked
you about that you had some excuses for me. When you moved here I decided you had
culture shock. My strengths of identification and understanding as a future family doctor
have crippled me in the relationship department, because instead of treating you as a
partner I would always try to take care of you and bought into your excuses. Out of 6
years of marriage you have only been employed 3 full years if you add up your little
stents here and there. We lived off of my student loans as you only qualified for
unemployment the last 6 months we lived together. My father has crawled in attics
worked at Subway and Dominos. Even though he has owned a car dealership, when he
was in between dealerships he went and got an application from Wal-Mart just in case
deals didn’t fall through quickly enough. You have always refused to work any job that
you felt was below you. When we first married I would work washing cars, renting cars,
and waiting tables. I would come home and cook and clean and you would spend all
day and night at the computer and TV. I shouldn’t have put up with that. When I was
pregnant my friend found a job for you painting at her dad’s school and you turned it
down because of the “commute.” You are given opportunities over and over but if it is
beneath you, you don’t take it. I lost respect for you. No job is too lowly if you are
providing for your family. I can’t respect someone who’s own ideals and comfort come
before their family. I can’t respect someone who CHOOSES to stay on unemployment
when there are jobs available. I think low work ethic is a reflection of your ability to
battle your addiction and deal with life’s difficulty. Whoever has primary custody of my
child needs to exemplify work ethic, and be able to provide for the needs of the child
both emotionally and physically.
Your husband attitude- When we were engaged I made sure to put your signature
on my bank account just in case. When we traded in my truck I put your name on the
title. When you bought the Audi you did not afford me the same courtesy. The Audi was
bought with my loans. You had only been working a few months and we paid 6,000 in
cash as soon as my loans came in. Every semester I was in med school I took more
than 10,000 in refund for my living expenses. When you were unemployed we survived
on this plus credit cards, plus loans from my friends Sophia and Anna. You have never
been a protector for me. You left me stranded with car problems countless times. You
always drove the more reliable car, EVEN when unemployed. Every man I know would
be mortified to have his wife in the broken down car. Not you. You always felt entitled.
I can’t trust you to put E first. Everyone always comes after you. In the bedroom we
had many problems. I had to do all the initiating. I was rejected numerous times early
on because you would rather look at porn. That is incredibly scarring for a woman. In
addition you would pick apart my oral technique. A lot of wives won’t even do that. A
few months before we separated I decided to try and spice things up because I wanted
a “g spot” orgasm. I asked if we could use a vibrator while you penetrated but that
failed quickly because you couldn’t handle me using anything else besides you. When
I tried just using you, you often grew tired or sore or couldn’t last. The “g spot” idea was abandoned eventually because it didn’t appeal to you. What about me?
Why I believe I should be allowed to move to South Carolina:
When I met you in July 2001 I told you I was going to be a doctor, and any guy who
wanted to be with me had to understand that they would be supporting me through
school or they shouldn’t get with me. I always thought I would be pretty old when I got
married because I knew that wasn’t a very appealing offer. Because of that, I made sure
every guy who seemed interested knew that up front so they could get out before getting
attached. It was a non negotiable aspect of being with me. In the 3 years of dating
before we were married that was discussed repeatedly. You agreed to that. You always
knew that was part of the deal. What wasn’t ever part of the deal was the porn. Just
saying. I was never given a fair warning. (I gave you a fair warning after 3 years that if I caught you LYING about the porn again I was out)
Why I should be able to move with E:
1: E has always been my top priority. When he was born I made three decisions that
illustrate this:
(1) I decided to go from being a B student to doing enough to pass with a C. No
matter what the school schedule I studied from 8-5 then came home and spent
time with E until he went to bed. If he was sick I would stay up with him even
if I had exams the next day (and he would always get sick before exams). I
missed classes and even labs that had to be made up when he was sick and you
were working. Even now I miss rotation days if he is sick.
(2) Though I had always wanted to be an OBGYN, I chose to do family practice
because I’m not willing to miss valuable time with my child. I am happier for this
decision and I believe it was meant to be, but the decision was made purely for
our son, and you know that.
(3) I breast fed for TWO years. This required pumping during lunch instead of going
to noon conferences. This meant missing many career opportunities and away
conferences, but I don’t regret it for a second.
2. The above reasons heavily influenced my residency choice. I chose a family friendly
residency. Daycare is onsite and is the second rated early child development center in
the state. Other residents who have children there can’t say enough good things. My
attendings are super understanding (many of them are also moms and dads) and will
cover for us if a child is sick. Residency retreats and events are family affairs and kids are always included.
3. Excellent public education is accessible in South Carolina, and quite a bit better than California. Classroom sizes are smaller and I’m finding housing in the same school
district where the other doctors send their children. In addition affordable private school is available.
4. As you know, southern values are more in line with the type of values we want E
to have. In the south respect, manners, and Christian ideals will be supported not
just at home but also at school, day care, and Target. In addition the 3 universities in
Spartanburg will provide cultural diversity for E to have awareness and tolerance of
diversity.
5. South Carolina is not only closer to my family, but also closer to your sister
6. If you decide to move to South Carolina you will be near Bromma headquarters, and
job opportunities of the east coast. Which is something you often talked about. Up
until I decided to separate you were actually itching to move out of California. The only
reason I can fathom for your mind to change is because you want to have something to
hold over me. You’re grasping for control in any way you can.
The 50/50 custody question:
So honestly I’m always kind of confused about this. You see E every single day if
you want, so I don’t really get where the problem is. I feel I was very considerate. If the problem is you want an equal time of E unconscious at your house, let me explain
why that hasn’t happened.
To start, when I went to the child psychiatrist last year she impressed on me the need for Ezra to have a home base. Only an older teenager can handle spending every night at
a different house. Given the amount of time I spend with him, that I’m the one who takes
care of him when he’s sick and was the breast feeder for 2 years, that home base should
be with me. As you know, E has always been a momma’s boy. That’s how most first
babies are. It has been observed that he gets a great deal of security from me as his
mom, which is only natural and important for his self esteem as a boy. I am his home
base, no question.
Second, I have some concerns about you as a father, which I will list. This is just a few, not comprehensive at all:
- Child porn on your computer a few years ago. I believed you then when you said
it had been downloaded as a package but have since found out that because it’s
a federal crime, that’s impossible. You had to search for that. As a mom this is a
huge red flag that concerns me.
- Your temper and lack of patience. Namely you purposely dropping E on the
bed when he was only 3 days old because he hadn’t stopped screaming. You
could have killed him as that is the most common method for coup-contrecoup
brain bleed in shaken baby syndrome. I think brief visits as opposed to days of
time with Ezra are best so your temper and fatigue aren’t pushed. I’ve been on
the other side of that temper too.
- In January when E was sick and I stayed home with him you came by and seeing how sick he was you decided to leave him with me even though it was supposed to be your night. While I appreciate you doing that, it illustrates that we are in agreement that what is in E's best interest is for him to be predominantly with me.
Our current schedule as you know has been since February 2011:
[Table of our current schedule]
What is fabulous about this schedule is that it is basically what things were like when
we lived under the same roof. I researched and talked to a psychologist and even
discussed with you. This was truly in E's best interest. What I think is great is that
we have been able to be flexible with this. You picked him up a little late this week, but no biggie. I’ve picked him up a little late. Sometimes I take him for a week on vacation. When your family was here I let them enjoy him with no question. I appreciate that we’ve been able to be flexible. However, I will not give up the home base, because
it truly is essential for E's sense of security. And again, I’m not sure what you are
asking for as you see your son every day. I am happy to continue this schedule if you
choose to move with E and I to South Carolina. It’s up to you.
Sincerely,
Wife
I'm not even sure if there is a point to me responding to this entire letter. I'm thinking an acknowledgement of her hurt is in order here. Also, I see a lot of these "facts" going to court. A lot may not be true, but still enough to possibly raise flags to the judge, or bias the case towards the mother.
I'm contacting my lawyer and sending her this email for next steps, BTW.
IMHO, that is the best solution ^^^ above...
Let your L take care of determining fact from fiction. You don't need to fight over the little bits...
Know that she is deep in some pain and is attempting to protect herself... validate that...
Then... chin up and keep moving forward...
Questions for you....
What do YOU want ???
Forget everything that is relationship related...
Forget the marriage...
What do you want your life to look like ????
What do you want your life with your son to look like ????
What do you want him (your son) to remember about his Father, many years from now ????
wow, I have to say. That was a well thought, detailed analysis of your marriage Alamo.
Some things are not right. Yea that is to be expected.
But what you have here my friend is a unique window into yourself provided by a woman. Even if you don't end up with your wife and someone else, this analysis can surely help you to be become quite a catch.
Maybe a lot of the issues your wife is talking about: you have done a 180. Perhaps she is not seeing that yet. Or perhaps they are still lingering.
I know that the language can seem harsh especially when its coming from our spouse. But you gotta keep that aside and look at the dry details. In time your wife will surely see the new your. But its gotta be authentic and from within.
Live strong man!
Got to agree Alamo, really great stuff in that e-mail. And I can relate to pretty much all of it.
Hi guys, thanks for stopping in and commenting. I will answer to your posts at a later time. But first I wanted to post what I wrote my wife in response to her email:
Wife, I appreciate your heart-felt letter. I hurt you deeply and understand your need to protect yourself. I will always be sorry for that. If it's one thing I should've (and could've) done was to treat you as a woman, wife and partner.
Sincerely,
Alamo
Alamo,
fwiw, there are ways to apologize without admitting specifics. Like "W, I don't recall it that way but I am sorry I hurt you. If I had the chance to do it all over I'd do many things differently."
Several of her assertions, if admitted by you, are not at all helpful to you.
Did you get physical with her? Did you purpoesly drop your son? Those are criminal offenses in all states and I've had clients in jail for less. Admitting them is dangerous for you. IT's one thing to LEARN from them, another thing to lose your liberty.
The allegation of child porn is a serious one and that gets jail time....don't minimize that.
On the other hand, I'd argue, if I were your L, that if she really had any of these fears why on earth does she let you have son at all?
I would not count on seeing him at all in SC if these are things she's willing to put in writing.
Also your first sentence with her letter, to us, is that it was mostly true and then "mostly not true."
Well?
Anyhow Her letter is calm, powerful and resolute.
See what your L says. Send nothing more to her until you get a legal opinion.
And try to use this as a tool for your future. I think there is a lot to learn from this.
If half of what she says is true, I hope you've done some deep digging inward. That is where the real journey in life is.
IMHO, that is the best solution ^^^ above...
Let your L take care of determining fact from fiction. You don't need to fight over the little bits...
Know that she is deep in some pain and is attempting to protect herself... validate that...
Then... chin up and keep moving forward...
Kaffe, I went on to validate the pain she suffered and why she's doing what she has to do. I also expressed regret for not being the husband/friend/partner in our marriage.
I sent the letter to my wife's letter to my counselor and we're meeting on Friday morning. Will keep you posted.
Questions for you....
What do YOU want ???
Forget everything that is relationship related...
Forget the marriage...
What do you want your life to look like ????
What do you want your life with your son to look like ????
What do you want him (your son) to remember about his Father, many years from now ????
What I want is for our son to have a normal as possible life, preferably in an unbroken family unit. That would indicate that I should move to SC too, right?
Well, what makes that hard now is that my new job may be becoming a career path. My boss called me in last week and said that she's really impressed with my history and my current abilities that she wants me to consider taking over her position next year because she's ready to retire. I've been asking God for a sign or an open door -- could this be it?
That's my quandary. Yet another reason NOT to leave.
Got to agree Alamo, really great stuff in that e-mail. And I can relate to pretty much all of it.
Hi Jon, did you go through a similar experience with your life/marriage/wife?
Good stuff, alamo... including your response to your W's letter, IMHO...
It might be time to take a stronger stand on owning your responsibility in the M, as far as your W...
You have appologized many time now, for your offences. From how I've learned to know you, you are remorseful. That being said, your W has not been able to "let it go" in the sense that she is not forgiving you... that's how it appears, to me... so she still blames you and points your old deficiencies in your face...
It may be time for you to simply let her know that you while you validate how she felt, that you have apologised many times in the past and that you have let that part of you go and are moving forward and therefore would apreciate that she stop smearing it in your face...
Now, I'm not sure how to say it, but that's the idea... I think 25 has a good way of putting this type of response...
As for job becoming possible career... well, that would be great... although I would say that, like your M... that is something that MIGHT happen in the future, so keep doing what you are doing, but have no expectations that WILL happen... and also, don't close yourself off to the possibility that something else, just as good or better, might come along...
ie. Don't put all your eggs in one basket...
Keep the possibility of SC in your pocket and keep working on the idea of 50/50 and how that might work in various scenarios...
and keep moving forward...
Alamo,
fwiw, there are ways to apologize without admitting specifics. Like "W, I don't recall it that way but I am sorry I hurt you. If I had the chance to do it all over I'd do many things differently."
Several of her assertions, if admitted by you, are not at all helpful to you.
Did you get physical with her? Did you purpoesly drop your son? Those are criminal offenses in all states and I've had clients in jail for less. Admitting them is dangerous for you. IT's one thing to LEARN from them, another thing to lose your liberty.
The allegation of child porn is a serious one and that gets jail time....don't minimize that.
On the other hand, I'd argue, if I were your L, that if she really had any of these fears why on earth does she let you have son at all?
I would not count on seeing him at all in SC if these are things she's willing to put in writing.
Also your first sentence with her letter, to us, is that it was mostly true and then "mostly not true."
Well?
Anyhow Her letter is calm, powerful and resolute.
See what your L says. Send nothing more to her until you get a legal opinion.
And try to use this as a tool for your future. I think there is a lot to learn from this.
If half of what she says is true, I hope you've done some deep digging inward. That is where the real journey in life is.
Definitely. That's why I stayed away from stating anything that agrees with specifics of the letter. All of you are right about how to use this letter; I see it as a window to my past and a guide to my present and future.
"Mostly true...mostly not true" -- I was waxing poetic there. Just to clear things: I was physical, but never ever hit her. I grabbed her and held her, half of the time was to stop her from cutting herself. She would either have a razor blade to cut her thighs, or occasionally a knife. She would do that when she was under great sorrow -- she did it with her parents, and she did it dealing with the porn. Many times, I've have to wrestle with her to get the blade out her hands, so no wonder she might've received hand-imprints on her body. Mind you, she bruises easy (I've seen her bump into things and the bruise would look like she was punched; even "crazy" sex caused it sometimes).
I've also always been pained that my wife claims that I purposefully dropped our baby son. I remember that I was tired, was trying to hold our son in a different position, and I lost my grip. The "drop" was probably 3 inches. But due to everything that had occurred during that time (dealing with my parents and having another porn discovery), she was on-edge and read that as "Aaron is bad".
Your point about her fears yet still letting me take care of our son is spot on. I have been thinking the same way since the day she left and my counselor agrees as well. She states that she has our son's best interest in mind, so by letting our son be with me is basically endorsing my credibility as a father and role-model (?). Her leaving for SC has nothing to do with the values and education system or environment of that state, but more about her education/job. Plain and simple.
Speaking of which, it's also interesting that in her letter, she didn't forgets to mention that while she was in med school (with admitted less time to be home than she has now, even factoring in the fact that she chose to be a B/C-grade student), I took care of all things home-related. Some things I wasn't good at (like paperwork), but many things I was (like taking care of our son, cooking, cleaning).
Good stuff, alamo... including your response to your W's letter, IMHO...
It might be time to take a stronger stand on owning your responsibility in the M, as far as your W...
You have appologized many time now, for your offences. From how I've learned to know you, you are remorseful. That being said, your W has not been able to "let it go" in the sense that she is not forgiving you... that's how it appears, to me... so she still blames you and points your old deficiencies in your face...
It may be time for you to simply let her know that you while you validate how she felt, that you have apologised many times in the past and that you have let that part of you go and are moving forward and therefore would apreciate that she stop smearing it in your face...
Now, I'm not sure how to say it, but that's the idea... I think 25 has a good way of putting this type of response...
As for job becoming possible career... well, that would be great... although I would say that, like your M... that is something that MIGHT happen in the future, so keep doing what you are doing, but have no expectations that WILL happen... and also, don't close yourself off to the possibility that something else, just as good or better, might come along...
ie. Don't put all your eggs in one basket...
Keep the possibility of SC in your pocket and keep working on the idea of 50/50 and how that might work in various scenarios...
and keep moving forward...
Yeah, this new job has been the strangest of experiences so far. First they hire me as a temp. Then one week later, 1 (out of two) of the employees left for Apple (who wouldn't?) and my boss immediately offered me the job. So now I have only one other colleague (besides my boss) who is on maternity leave until June. Flying solo as a rookie and leading the projects for two more-experienced folks have shown my boss what I'm capable of. When she came to me about her job, I said that she should give it to the girl who is on maternity leave - she's been here longer and has more experience, after all. My boss said that she didn't see that girl (who's more on the creative side) being able work in a technical position like hers.
My boss asked me to read up on some things, so I guess she's mentoring me.
UPDATE
This week my wife began her ICU rotation in Richmond (high crime rate, i.e. high intake). For the past two days she's texted me to let me know that she'd be late to fetch our son (at 6pm usually) or probably not at all. I was friendly and made a point to show genuine interest of her new rotation, while staying away from being too "relationship-y" or being the same old Alamo, communication-wise.
3/26/12
W (12:49pm): Started icu rotation in Richmond today w/ a dictator. May b late. Will let u know
M: Yikes, one of those docs, huh? Thanks for letting me know.
W (4:58pm): Im not getting out until at least 9. Tomorrow should b better
M: Don't sweat it! I'll put E to sleep. Take care
I contacted our daycare teacher that I'd be dropping our son off at my usual time before I head out to work, but then...
W (5:54pm): Just got done give me half hour
M: Ok
Contacted teacher again to inform the change in plans. Our son was excited to stay the night with me, and I had to tell him sorry.
When my wife came, she off-handedly started talking about her schedule tomorrow. I said "Is it one of those crazy attendings (doctors)?" Then she started describing to me in short detail the person that doc is, etc.
3/27/12
W (5:53pm): Emergency running late
M: OK, keep us posted.
W (6:39pm): Not gonna make it. Just intubated and put in carotid lines. Two pts coded so may not get out of here till 10
M: OK no problem. It's fixing to keep pouring hard tonight, so be careful on the road.
I added the last part because I know my wife has real issues driving at night, especially in the rain; we never really talked about it much in the past. Also, I did so because I was aware of weather intel in our area and she wasn't, so even as a friend, I wanted to give her a head's up on her drive back.
gee, if things are so unpredicatble for her now
I wonder how her internship will be? Oh, wait, I know. It'll stink!
This week of her crazy hours is a glimpse into her life in SC...she has a rude awakening coming her way.
Good luck
UPDATE
Does this never end? My wife found something else to attack me with. Tonight, she sent me the following email:
"Hi Alamo,
I was looking at some pictures of E (our son) that you posted on facebook and noticed you had some houseguests recently called "couch surfers." On researching I found that these are people you don't know that stay in your home. I am not comfortable with you having strangers in your house with our son.
Upon looking at your profile I was further alarmed to see that you advertise to the whole world that you have a 3 year old son complete with pictures. I'm shocked that you would be so reckless with our son. If you continue to participate in this than I can't in good conscious allow E to stay over night anymore.
Wife"
To which I say, (a) I screen my couchsurfers (so far only two couples have stayed with me) and so does the Couchsurfing; (b) I mention our son in the description because I'm describing my home setting, i.e. how many people live in my house, what kind of pets I have (if any), the rules I want couchsurfers to comply with because of my home setting, etc., (c) only 1 photo in my couchsurfing album has a face shot of our son; (d) By the default Faceook setting, there are friends of friends who are able to view my albums and of our son, so why isn't she alarmed by that?
So should I even answer my wife? What makes her think I have a poor judgement of people's character? I mean, she is no better, is she? After all, with reference to all her allegations, she, in all her wisdom and great judgement, chose me to be her life partner.
Or should I get off the couch-surfing radar for awhile?
My head hurts just thinking about it...
BTW, after meeting with my counselor on Friday, we will be completing the filing for child custody sometime this week; not something I wish on anybody. As Cosmo Kramer said, "The cat is out of the bag." It is something I have to do. Keep me in your prayers, brothers and sisters! Love you guys.
As a parent of a 12 and 7 yr old when my W and I split, as this adventure was just beginning for me... I was concerned about some of the stuff that my W was doing in regards to the kids...
Just this weekend, my W to me because I was asking the where abouts of D14 and whom she was with and D14 complained to my W. To which my W spewed on me and indicated that she doesn't ask the kids what they are doing or who they are with...
????? Really...?
Now, I think that's BS, but it's not worth my while to argue about. Still, if I called CFS on my W based on her words as made in an email and the observations of others over the past year, I'm sure they might have some issue or concerns...
So what I'm saying is, your W is concerned for the well being of your son. Whether you feel she is right or wrong in her concerns, they are valid as a parent. And I'm not sure that if she wanted to make some legal case out of it, that it might not go to well for you.
Your choice of course, but those are might thoughts...
So should I even answer my wife? What makes her think I have a poor judgement of people's character? I mean, she is no better, is she?After all, with reference to all her allegations, she, in all her wisdom and great judgement, chose me to be her life partner.
On this, certainly a bit of anger there. And I get that... and you are venting here and I get that...
still, the tit for tat thinking and rationalizing through anger may not be hugely beneficial for you in the long run...
Just putting that out there...
You're absolutely right, Kaffe -- I was venting; just need to get things like these off my chest once in a while.
Just not very certain how to approach/reply to her. I'm thinking of writing something like this:
"Wife, your concern for E's safety and well-being is valid. I feel the same way too. This Couchsurfing organization does a great job screening and verifying travelers, but I also do my own screening on top of that to ensure that the surfers fit our home environment. I also use it as one of the opportunities to teach our son about being hospitable, charitable and just to meet people whom I think he'll enjoy having around.
Nonetheless, I will put this activity on hold until such time we can discuss its pros and cons.
Alamo"
What do you think?
I don't see anything horrible about it. Perhaps a little wordy, but that's my take.
I will say that if I put something out for discussion with my W... it doesn't happen...
So is there a way to leave the topic open-ended while validating my wife?
Thought about this for a bit. Honestly, I think what you've written is ok and does validate and keep it open ended.
But what I might write would be:
"I understand that you are concerned. I will remove myself from the org at this time, but would like to continue participating at a later date if we could discuss it."
The difference being, in your original response, you are discussing as though you believe your W is receptive.
Whereas, until she's willing to talk about it, she is unlikely to be receptive...
At least, that's what I've found with my W...
Of course... my W still won't have any discussions with me...
Well, this is what I wrote to her today:
"Hi Wife
I understand your concern. I will put this activity on hold until such time we can discuss its pros and cons.
- Alamo"
Good stuff...
While I am sure that you checked the org and were confident about it's "safety"... if you and your W were together, it would have been a joint decision to do it, in regards to its affect on your son...
So it is not much different as a co-parent...
As my W continues to remind me, what she does is HER business... and that's true and fair enough... but... if it could affect the kids... that IS my business and works in both directions...
Her reasoning is the part that makes me want to laugh up a storm. We talked about Couchsurfing the other day; I explained to her the pretty lengthy and detailed verification process for that PARTICULAR site. She reminded me of a case back in her hometown in Texas where a preacher and fellow Bible student became a convicted pedophile. She said that good people can be pedophiles too. I just validated her ("yes, I agree.") and ended the conversation there; in the bigger picture, it just isn't worth to fight over this.
My point being: Maybe I should conduct a background check for each of the new church members that I hang out with; my wife doesn't know many of the new people that joined since she left 1.5 years ago. Our son hangs out with them a lot. Why doesn't she tell me to cease or desist?
From the you-never-know-what's-going-to-happen-who-you're-going-to-meet perspective, maybe I should stop driving our son around too. You never know when something "bad" will happen, correct?
Maybe I should ask my wife to stop my wife from bringing our son to see her parents. After all, they have been deemed by two of our therapists to have invoked emotional incest on her. So by pure face-value judgement of character, they are dangerous people to be around.
And yes, I'm venting again. Been doing that a lot lately. My heart has been in pieces lately from what's coming up soon.
She has a point Alamo. I personally wouldn't do anything even remotely questionable before the D is finalized.
Your W has already demonstrated that she is prepared to bring the lumber in the email that she sent you. No need to give her anymore ammo.
Her reasoning is the part that makes me want to laugh up a storm. We talked about Couchsurfing the other day; I explained to her the pretty lengthy and detailed verification process for that PARTICULAR site. She reminded me of a case back in her hometown in Texas where a preacher and fellow Bible student became a convicted pedophile. She said that good people can be pedophiles too. I just validated her ("yes, I agree.") and ended the conversation there; in the bigger picture, it just isn't worth to fight over this.
that^^^ is part of the bigger picture so why do you now (below) go on to argue it?
My point being: Maybe I should conduct a background check for each of the new church members that I hang out with; my wife doesn't know many of the new people that joined since she left 1.5 years ago. Our son hangs out with them a lot. Why doesn't she tell me to cease or desist?
I guess this is sarcasm...
From the you-never-know-what's-going-to-happen-who-you're-going-to-meet perspective, maybe I should stop driving our son around too. You never know when something "bad" will happen, correct?
Maybe I should ask my wife to stop my wife from bringing our son to see her parents. After all, they have been deemed by two of our therapists to have invoked emotional incest on her. So by pure face-value judgement of character, they are dangerous people to be around.
this^^^ MIGHT be valid...
but why don't you take LITB's advice and stop having house guests you don't know WHILE you have your son with you,
at all....OR at least while a divorce is pending? This is not brilliant on your end.
Stop fighting it. But don't tell her you were "wrong' or a bad father.
Just say, "W, for the record, there is a stringent vetting process for that organization, in addition to my own. BUT out of respect for your wishes/concerns, I'll end my r with that organization. "
You can renew it later IF YOU THINK IT'S WISE...I'm not sure it is. I have 3 kids and if I had a kid that young, I would not have strangers in my house unsupervised at all...period. Even if I was there 24/7, I am not sure I'd have strangers in my house overnight WHEN I had my 3 y/o with me, especially as a single parent. Why are you doing this anyhow?
To save money?
I want to adopt a child or at least do Foster care. (I'm talking real life now).
My h and I agreed that we will NOT get a child who is bigger or stronger than our d at home. Period.
I saw my sister's stepson grow into a pretty "well behaved" sociopath (when he didn't know adults were watching, he was really just....evil to the other nieces/nephews and then did GREAT feigned concern about their injuries which he inflicted).
He became dangerous and CPS got involved.
After he started a few fires, he was harder and harder to place...
Don't risk losing your child b/c your ego is bruised. Think Big picture here, Alamo...big picture...
1) you could lose him to your w and not see him often at all...or
2) she could have a point... something could happen to him & you'd lose him for real.
How would YOU fare then? You'd be a basket case - like all of us.
And yes, I'm venting again. Been doing that a lot lately. My heart has been in pieces lately from what's coming up soon.
Stay strong, w/an eyr on the long view. Let your L know about the "emotional incest" though. It's a valid point and may get her off your back.
BUT LET THE LAWYER bring it up b/c if you do, that's a nuke and you don't want a nuclear war with her.
Her reasoning is the part that makes me want to laugh up a storm. We talked about Couchsurfing the other day; I explained to her the pretty lengthy and detailed verification process for that PARTICULAR site. She reminded me of a case back in her hometown in Texas where a preacher and fellow Bible student became a convicted pedophile. She said that good people can be pedophiles too. I just validated her ("yes, I agree.") and ended the conversation there; in the bigger picture, it just isn't worth to fight over this.
that^^^ is part of the bigger picture so why do you now (below) go on to argue it?
My point being: Maybe I should conduct a background check for each of the new church members that I hang out with; my wife doesn't know many of the new people that joined since she left 1.5 years ago. Our son hangs out with them a lot. Why doesn't she tell me to cease or desist?
I guess this is sarcasm...
From the you-never-know-what's-going-to-happen-who-you're-going-to-meet perspective, maybe I should stop driving our son around too. You never know when something "bad" will happen, correct?
Maybe I should ask my wife to stop my wife from bringing our son to see her parents. After all, they have been deemed by two of our therapists to have invoked emotional incest on her. So by pure face-value judgement of character, they are dangerous people to be around.
this^^^ MIGHT be valid...
but why don't you take LITB's advice and stop having house guests you don't know WHILE you have your son with you,
at all....OR at least while a divorce is pending? This is not brilliant on your end.
Stop fighting it. But don't tell her you were "wrong' or a bad father.
Just say, "W, for the record, there is a stringent vetting process for that organization, in addition to my own. BUT out of respect for your wishes/concerns, I'll end my r with that organization. "
You can renew it later IF YOU THINK IT'S WISE...I'm not sure it is. I have 3 kids and if I had a kid that young, I would not have strangers in my house unsupervised at all...period. Even if I was there 24/7, I am not sure I'd have strangers in my house overnight WHEN I had my 3 y/o with me, especially as a single parent. Why are you doing this anyhow?
To save money?
I want to adopt a child or at least do Foster care. (I'm talking real life now).
My h and I agreed that we will NOT get a child who is bigger or stronger than our d at home. Period.
I saw my sister's stepson grow into a pretty "well behaved" sociopath (when he didn't know adults were watching, he was really just....evil to the other nieces/nephews and then did GREAT feigned concern about their injuries which he inflicted).
He became dangerous and CPS got involved.
After he started a few fires, he was harder and harder to place...
Don't risk losing your child b/c your ego is bruised. Think Big picture here, Alamo...big picture...
1) you could lose him to your w and not see him often at all...or
2) she could have a point... something could happen to him & you'd lose him for real.
How would YOU fare then? You'd be a basket case - like all of us.
And yes, I'm venting again. Been doing that a lot lately. My heart has been in pieces lately from what's coming up soon.
Stay strong, w/an eyr on the long view. Let your L know about the "emotional incest" though. It's a valid point and may get her off your back.
BUT LET THE LAWYER bring it up b/c if you do, that's a nuke and you don't want a nuclear war with her.
Hey there 25 -- how's your week going? Thanks for dropping in again!
Anyway, for my response to my wife, see my posts on 4/2 and 4/3/12; I've stopped the couchsurfing activity since then.
To answer your questions:
- Couchsurfing (CSing) doesn't save money or anything. You help passing world/local travelers on a low budget, and if you have time you show them around town, etc. In return, they cook you a meal or two, rake your lawn, share travel stories, exchange cultures, etc, but not exclusively or necessarily.
- Why now? I've been CSing since last year actually, but only got my first travelers Xmas of 2011. Further back than that, I was brought up in a home where my parents (who were local missionaries back in Asia) hosted people/friends almost every week or two. There were people we knew, but many we didn't. All we had in common was that we were mostly Christian. So my parents inculcated in me (perhaps) the idea of being spotaneously hospitable and just as importantly, the ability to read if people were iffy or legit -- all this before there was the vast and easily-accessible social network we call the Internet, for crying out loud. Iffy ones we usually try to offer them an overnight stay at a motel room or something.
- My sarcasm was my means of venting, yet I feel there is some truth in it. I think in the distrusting landscape (and thus paranoia) of this culture, we've become just plain afraid of MANY things, mostly because of misinformation. Seems like we need to "know" about someone or something before we act on them. Spontaneity doesn't just mean "Hey, I have a dollar in my pocket, and I'm not in a rush to be somewhere right now, so here you go, dear homeless/jobless person by the STOP sign, please accept my donation."
It's sad how when we were together, we would disagree on things pertaining to our son, but not to the point of "cease or desist".
Ok, time to get off my soapbox now.
As a sidenote, I've decided to not worry about how I'm going to pay for the legal costs, because it's imperative that I "fight" for our son.
Just wanted to share this with y'all today:
I've found that I live as a better forgiven man when I am a better forgiving man.
- Rick Atchley
I'm not even filing for marriage dissolution and the legal fees is already killing me. I've barely recovered from my unemployment LAST YEAR, and now this.
Fighting for my son is worth it, though. I will worry about paying the legal team as it comes.
