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Posted By: luvhurts49 What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/12/11 05:11 PM
Accuray, I don't think my W feels any guilt over my unhappiness. In fact, I think she gets some sort of perverse pleasure in seeing me unhappy. In her mind, I've caused her all this unhappiness in her, which caused her to leave and start this whole process. So now, any unhappiness shown by me is her adding to her pleasure and further justifies her decision (again, in her mind).

Of course what she isn't seeing is the effect this is having on our children. While the 3 year old is too young to understand, the 12 year old is definitely acting out and is displaying mood swings.

Unfortunately, my W and I have gotten to the point where we don't even talk anymore. The only communication we have is via text. In fact, we haven't talked since I confronted her about the OM, just over a month ago. Now we are full fledged into our D and is probably gonna get ugly really quick.
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/12/11 05:57 PM
Originally Posted By: Luvhurts49
I think she gets some sort of perverse pleasure in seeing me unhappy.


Why do you say that? Is she doing things that seem mean and spiteful with no other purpose than to make you feel badly?

I read a book called "Mindful Loving" that says you can basically boil all human interactions down to two things: (1) operating from a place of love, or (2) operating from a place of fear.

Anger, jealousy, spite, and being mean are fear-based. The book recommends that if you feel you are being mistreated, try to shift your perspective, and rather than seeing the other person's actions as motivated by malice, see them as coming from a place of fear. If you can understand that fear and where it's coming from, you can act to remove it or at least not make it worse. More importantly, you will view their actions with sympathy and pity instead of anger and insult.

She's lashing out at you not because she's evil, but because she's afraid of something -- afraid of what you might do to her in the divorce, afraid of facing the person she is becoming, afraid of facing the consequences of what she's done. Maybe she's afraid that OM will leave her -- if she's not secure in that relationship, if OM is not making her feel good about herself, she may be taking out that fear of being unworthy on you.

Luvhurts, I feel for you. I've followed your situation from the beginning and have tried to help, but it's hard not knowing you personally and not being able to talk to you directly. That is why I found the DB coach so helpful for me. If nothing else, she really helped me feel better about myself through this crisis.

If your W is truly crazy and has gone off the deep end, there is nothing you can do about that. All you can do is apply time and patience, be the best person you can be and hope she comes around.

If she is hell-bent on divorce, is involved with OM and is acting with malice, you do need to protect yourself. Hopefully you are confident in your choice of lawyer and he has you covered.

Forgetting about W for a while, what are you doing for yourself? Have you figured out any GAL activities? I know you are spending quality time with your kids and that is giving you some enjoyment, but when they are not around, what are you doing with yourself? As I mentioned previously, I bought an inexpensive road bike on Craigslist and racked up tons of miles, and picked up an inexpensive electric guitar and taught myself to play. Both of those were things I felt really good about that I could do on my schedule and didn't require me to commute or spend money on an ongoing basis. They were both also very inexpensive one-time investments, and if I sell them I'll probably get back what I paid. What are you doing for you?

Accuray
Posted By: Mach1 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/12/11 06:40 PM
Originally Posted By: luvhurts49
I think she gets some sort of perverse pleasure in seeing me unhappy. In her mind, I've caused her all this unhappiness in her, which caused her to leave and start this whole process. So now, any unhappiness shown by me is her adding to her pleasure and further justifies her decision (again, in her mind).



I don't think I would agree with you there, although I can certainly understand how you could feel that way.

Dealing with a WAS is one of the most UN-pleasant things ever. Understanding the why's and how's help some, but only as much as WE can understand. One aspect of that is...


That WE can only look at it from our side of things, and often, we interpret our feelings and emotions into what they SHOULD be thinking or feeling. We apply OUR tools and values to what they are feeling of thinking.

As detachment comes, often we step back and try to understand that a person is only capable of giving outwardly, what they are feeling internally. And the pain is masked as anger when we finally see that pain.

What I would like for you to learn, is to validate that those are HER feelings on things, and nothing YOU can do will change HER feelings.

Is it the truth ? Who knows, more often than not.....no

Is it HER truth ? You betcha it is.

Please don't ever think that she is not in pain over her decision. That would simply be untrue.

How could you better validate HER truth ?



Originally Posted By: luvhurts49

Of course what she isn't seeing is the effect this is having on our children. While the 3 year old is too young to understand, the 12 year old is definitely acting out and is displaying mood swings.



Easy on that soapbox my friend.

It is easy to "grandstand" for the sake of the kids.

Play this one easy. Do what YOU have to do to be a parent. A single parent, playing both roles for them.

Your job is not to facilitate the relationship between them, it is to not interfere with that relationship.

What relationship SHE chooses to build, should have no bearing on what YOUR relationship is.

That is one of the hardest things about this, and we DO have to keep an eye on our children. Please keep doing the right thing by them , and let the rest fall where it falls.



Originally Posted By: luvhurts49

Unfortunately, my W and I have gotten to the point where we don't even talk anymore. The only communication we have is via text. In fact, we haven't talked since I confronted her about the OM, just over a month ago. Now we are full fledged into our D and is probably gonna get ugly really quick.



In hindsight, you will see this differently than you do today.

NC gives you a chance to back off, and ease away from the things that hurt YOU....

NC is for your emotional protection at this point.

I feel for you buddy, and I wish I could help more. All I can do is offer what I have learned through this , and if you have any questions, please don't be afraid to ask.

I have been in your shoes, and I know how they fit....

Peace to you...
Posted By: NLW Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/12/11 10:52 PM
Accuracy,
Just to reinforce what has been suggested by others:

My H recently apologised for being angry and hard to deal with when we were trying to sort out a financial matter.

When I asked him why he was angry, he said it was because he was afraid - specifically of me and of what I would do to him in our situation.

My first response (in my head only) was to shout 'what I would do to you?????'

Because I see myself as the victim in all of this. I don't want the marriage to end. I see him as ruining our future, wreckage our finances, etc.

His view is the opposite - to the extent that he experiences real fear of what I will do...

Coming to a realisation that this is how he's experienced our relationship has been a sobering thing, and makes me try to deal with his 'outbursts' in a different way. It's not easy, but there it is.

NLW
Posted By: labug Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/13/11 04:20 AM
Originally Posted By: Mach1

NC gives you a chance to back off, and ease away from the things that hurt YOU....

NC is for your emotional protection at this point.



I've found this to be true for me. But I think it takes time to get there. I also find that email is even better than text because with text we expect a response right away. Email allows you space and to sit with it for awhile and get past the emotion.
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/13/11 03:07 PM
@Accuray: Yes, I believe that my W does things that are mean and spiteful with no other purpose than to make me feel badly? However, I do think that she is afraid. I don't know if she is afraid of giving us another chance, afraid of being hurt, afraid what is going to come of the D, or afraid for the kids, but I really do believe that she is afraid of something.

As far as GAL, it's been really hard. I've recently found out that one of my two closest friends, who I've talked to in confidence, has been telling my W things that I didn't necessarily want her to know. Unfortunately, I'm not 100% sure which of these two are saying things, so I have basically cut myself off from both which [censored], because the one friend is the one that I can usually go out with. So I really haven't been able to get out much other than to go do a little X-mas shopping for the kids (which I have spent WAY too much).
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/13/11 03:33 PM
Did you confront these friends? I would probably do that as one may be falsely accused at this point.

Since you know your W is operating from a place of fear, try to train yourself to view her that way when she is being mean to you. You'll be surprised how much that perspective shift will help your attitude and response to what you are receiving. If you see her as a scared little girl acting out versus a vengeful woman your response will be very different and more effective.

Accuray
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/13/11 03:43 PM
I have tried that, but then the responses become even more mean and she usually then becomes more distant.

On a side note, the last two days have been a little weird. When she came to drop off S3, the first day I go to get him out of the car and she comes up from behind me and puts her hand on my side with her arm around me. Then this morning, she gives my S3 a hug, then I take S3 into my arms and she then gives us both a hug.

I thought the roller coaster stuff ended a month ago. I don't know if I can handle going through this again, but what am I to do? I mean, I want to hug her and I want her attention, but how do I do that without driving myself nuts?

The other thought that I had was, lately, the only time that she is nice is when she wants something. What could she possibly want other than to make the holidays even worse for me?
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/13/11 04:11 PM
I have not yet confronted my friends because I'm not sure which one it is that has been saying things. Of course, it is also possible that both are saying things too. Anyway, these two friends are related and spend quite a bit of time around one another, so it's gonna be kinda hard to figure out which it is. However, I did tell one friend a kinda tale that isn't 100% true just to see who ends up with the information.
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/13/11 07:23 PM
My God it's amazing how a simple thing such as hug can mess with your mind so much. My anxiety is up, can't think about the stuff I should be concentrating on, and I've bought another ticket for this freaking roller coaster. Why-o-why does my brain not work? I should know better than this and I should know better than to let this get to me, but my heart is screamin'. Damn.
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/13/11 09:36 PM
Originally Posted By: luvhurts49
I want to hug her and I want her attention, but how do I do that without driving myself nuts?


Yep, painful. Sometimes WAW will "try on" being nice to us. Think of it like putting your toe in the pool. They want to see how it feels, try it on. They're also gauging your reaction and how "safe" it is to be nice to you without you smothering them.

Often, they will catch themselves being nicer or more affectionate than they meant to be, they'll get scared that you will now think everything is OK, and they'll retreat or be mean again to let you know you're still not back "in".

This is the roller coaster -- a little affection followed by ice, followed by affection, followed by ice. Really works you over if you don't understand what's going on.

Your job when this happens is to make it "safe" for W to be affectionate with you. How do you make it safe?

1) Don't escalate -- if she hugs you, don't kiss her in response, don't say "I love you", don't make any overtures that take things up a notch.

2) Let her lead -- if she hugged you yesterday, don't think that means you can hug her today, you can't.

3) Don't shine a spotlight on it -- don't point out that what she's doing is new, different, feels good, or anything. "Act as if" you expected it and it's just normal and no big deal. Let her hug you and be relaxed, don't tense up or pull back, just roll with it.

4) Don't expect -- Don't expect it to happen again. If it does, great, if it doesn't that's OK too. She's doing an experiment. She may want to experiment again and she may not.

If you approach this the right way, SOME people have found that the affection gets more frequent and slowly escalates. This is torture in its own way as once you feel you're starting to make progress you're going to want to race for the finish line.

Given how things are going, the fact that she hugged you is a good sign, she's thinking about being more affectionate. Don't read anything more into it than that.

Accuray
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/14/11 02:02 PM
Quote:
if she hugs you, don't kiss her in response, don't say "I love you", don't make any overtures that take things up a notch.


Well, I guess I already messed up then because when she hugged me yesterday, I told her "I love you".

While thinking that it felt really good to be hugged by my W again, another thought did enter my head and that was "what does she want?" I thought this because any time that she has been nice to me since she left, it's usually because she's about to tell me something bad or that she wants something.

Quote:
Don't expect it to happen again. If it does, great, if it doesn't that's OK too.


While I hope it does happen again, I'm not counting on it and I certainly know that I can't come to expect it. I also know that I cannot initial that affection myself because she'll just throw it in my face or become lifeless. Like I said above, I'm starting to wonder what it is that she wants.
Posted By: labug Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/14/11 03:33 PM
Focus on what you want not what she wants. When the bomb dropped at my house, I was devastated but I knew and even spoke it aloud to my IC, that I didn't want to live my life angry and resentful, one of those women who carried a grudge for the rest of her life. So I got to work on me.
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/14/11 08:28 PM
Luvhurts,

I think I used this analogy for someone else, so excuse me for recycling. Your W views you like a giant dammed up body of water. She's afraid that if she's nice to you or shows you affection, the dam will break and you will flood her and sweep her away. You need to show her that the dam won't break and that you can hold your emotions in check.

When she hugged you and you said "I love you", she started to see that dam breaking and felt some spray. That's going to scare her away for a while.

What you did is normal and natural -- it comes from a place of hurt and loss -- so don't feel badly about it.

Going forward if you get a little affection from her, try to keep cool and don't escalate. That shows her that the dam is secure and she can show you affection without then being forced to go swimming.

Accuray
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/14/11 08:50 PM
Thanks for the analogy Accuray, it really hits home for me.

Best!!
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/15/11 03:21 PM
I get your point Accuray, but it's just so hard sometimes not to express my feelings to her. I really think that she does this for one of two reasons. Either it's to mess with me or that she really wants to hold me again.

It's hard for me to grasp where we have had all this affection for 20 years, that she finds it so difficult to give me affection when it seems to me that deep down, she still desires it from me.

For me, saying I love you has always been like saying hello or goodbye to someone. Not to say that I say willy nilly or that I don't really mean it, but that it has always been very easy for me to express myself to my W and kids that way. So when you say that she sees that as the dam breaking, it really makes me look at that from a different perspective.

I know she sees me as this giant roadblock to her happiness, that she really thinks that she cannot be happy with me any longer and because of that, she feels that I should give up our kids (custody) so she can be happy. But the reality is, she isn't acting like the mother our kids know and it really bothers me that she takes this cavalier attitude when it comes to our kids.

She doesn't do the things with the kids that she used to and she doesn't pay them the attention that she used to. It's like she wants to have the time with them so I can't.

I'm not saying that she doesn't love our kids because I know she does, but it just doesn't seem like she is really acting like a mother to them, but more like a baby sitter who gets to spoil them.
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/15/11 05:09 PM
Luvhurts,

I know how you feel -- I know you want to tell her you love her. It's ok to feel that way. If you want to DB, you need to fight that urge.

Your W is in crisis. She felt like a coiled spring. She assumed she was unhappy because of you. Now you are gone and she's still not happy. She didn't expect that and it's scary. She doesn't know how to be, so right now she's out of control emotionally.

By giving her space and making yourself a safe place, you give her time to figure out that the grass is not greener, that although certain things about you may have been a challenge for her, you were not the sole root of her unhappiness. She needs space more than anything to figure this out for herself. If she's fending off your emotional overtures, it takes the focus back to you and how you make her feel. You want her to concentrate on how she makes herself feel.

I really can't stress this enough, don't tell her you love her right now, you will get the chance to do it later, but not now. If she hugs you or is affectionate, don't escalate. You want her to leave with the feeling that she took a risk and nothing bad happened, that she didn't leave responsible for your feelings, and it made her feel good to be nice to you.

I'll go further and tell you not to thank her or offer positive commentary in any way. Just role with it, change the subject and talk about something else. Tell her about something you did by yourself or with the kids that made you happy. End with a positive vibe.

Accuray
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/15/11 05:33 PM
I'll tell you, it's really hard to be positive around my W because of what she's putting me through. It isn't just that she left, stuff with the kids, and everything around that, but also the whole ordeal with the divorce and what her L is telling her and so forth.

It's getting messy in a hurry and I just know that it's probably gonna get worse yet. We both want the same things--our kids and neither of use is gonna give in to the other if it means that we don't get custody.

So how do you continue to try and do all these things when you know that either me and/or my W is gonna get pissed because of what happens during the divorce?

Yes, I want her to feel comfortable with wanting to be around me. I would very much like it if she would show affection towards me. But I really don't think that my W feels unhappy right now. I mean, she has her OM, she's feel to do whatever she wants, she's convinced that's she made the right decision, and she's convinced that we will both be better off apart.

My W doesn't have the financial difficulties that I have right now. With her overtime, she makes more than I do, she lives with her dad and doesn't pay any bills other than her phone bill and groceries, while I have basically nothing left at the end of the month. Hell, I can't even afford to go out to have a beer.
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/15/11 10:43 PM
Originally Posted By: luvhurts49
it's really hard to be positive around my W because of what she's putting me through


YES! It's crazy hard. It's the hardest thing you'll ever have to do. DB is NOT intuitive, it requires you to go AGAINST how you're feeling, and that's why it's hard! It sux so very much. BUT, it's better than getting angry, bitter, and resentful and stewing in that. It's shifting your mindset to rise above, to be the better man. The divorce is like a freight train, you can't do a thing about it right now, so you need to surrender to the process and trust your lawyer. That is all you can do, and wasting your emotional energy worrying about it will only make you feel worse. Luvhurts, your position is brutally hard, and no one will tell you that it isn't. Remember, YOU are deciding to embrace the DB approach, because it's better than anything else you could be doing right now.

Originally Posted By: luvhurts49
But I really don't think that my W feels unhappy right now. I mean, she has her OM, she's feel to do whatever she wants, she's convinced that's she made the right decision, and she's convinced that we will both be better off apart.


You know she's unhappy based on how she's treating the kids. If she were happy with herself, would she be acting that way? The OM relationship is not real, it's based on a fantasy. I guarantee you that's starting to crumble by now. The stuff that she thought was cute before is now getting annoying, it's raising doubts, and that is going in both directions.

In addition, she's being mean to you. Think back in your life, were you ever happy with yourself when you were being mean to someone? Even if you felt they deserved it, if you saw that they were in pain, deep down didn't that evoke some feelings of guilt?

You've said that she's saying crazy things like you're trying to take the kids away from her when you've done nothing to suggest that. I'm SURE she realizes deep down that she's making you out to be the villain when you are not, and that makes her very uncomfortable. That's a fantasy that she's clinging to -- she's probably starting to realize there are some holes in it, and she doesn't like that.

If she didn't care about you, she wouldn't bother to be mean to you -- you wouldn't even be on her radar screen. If she were truly done with you, she'd probably treat you with compassion -- why not?

The way she's treating the kids and you should tell you more than anything else that she is not at peace -- she's in crisis. Who wouldn't be in her situation?

If you can shift your perspective and see her as someone who is hurt, scared, and trying to keep it together the only way she knows how, you may get some comfort by interpreting what she says and does differently.

What if you told her "I can imagine this is very difficult for you, if there's a way I can work with you to make this process easier let me know what it is. It's important to me to continue to be a father, and I would like you to continue to be a mother. I would not try to take the kids away from you, and I would hope that you feel the same. How can we make this easier on both of us? We both want to be happy."

Then *listen* to what she has to say, validate it, and see if there's something there you can work with. If she comes at you with something crazy or spiteful, be the better man -- "I can see you're in pain right now. Why don't you give it some thought and if you want to discuss it later we can."

Think about how you would have interacted with her before, the things that drove her nuts, and do a 180 -- don't talk over her, don't keep arguing until you're "right", demonstrate that you are not the man she expects.

Accuray
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/16/11 02:58 PM
Accuray, I have to tell you, a lot of what you say makes a lot of sense, but I have a hard time not thinking about things. I know I should just let the lawyer deal with things, but I still find myself thinking about the end result or what the end result could be. It does drive me nuts, but I can't seem to be able to shut it off.

Now as far as the OM, if the relationship was starting to crumble, why would my W even bother buying him an X-mas present? While I do hope that you are right, I just don't see the R ending with the OM any time soon. I think that they have had too much time "being friends" and working together to not have seen the faults of the other person by now.

So now, my W, who has had this mean streak to her for the past couple of months, has now started being a little nicer to me. Is the holidays or is it that she is truly done with me? I wish I knew.

My oldest son still says that she doesn't do things with them or really even talks to them. She sits on the couch and plays on her phone while the kids watch TV. My son is afraid to tell her how he feels or say anything to her because he doesn't want to get yelled at. I'm sorry, but your own kids should never feel afraid to ever speak to their own parents. That right there shows that something is wrong.
Posted By: adinva Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/16/11 03:27 PM
You need to help your son develop his own relationship with his mom. Don't allow him to try to make you feel better by criticizing her; kids sometimes do that. Tell him, what would he like to do when he's there - try suggesting it in advance. Suggest an outing, tell her he's getting bored with watching tv, could they cook together or play a card game?

If he thinks she'll yell at him just for asking her to do something, help him find words for that. Maybe suggest he say to her, when you yell at me I feel like I can't talk to you. I don't know if a 12yo can handle that, but he needs to develop his own tools for relating with his mom and not get into the role of bringing back info to you for you to deal with on his behalf.
Posted By: adinva Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/16/11 03:28 PM
That's not to say he shouldn't confide in you, but you have to be careful about the dynamic that develops.
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/16/11 03:48 PM
I never say anything negative about his mom. Despite everything that is happening, I only have good things to say about my W. I may not always agree with her decisions or the way she handles certain things, but I never criticize her.

When my son makes any kind of negative comment regarding his mom, I always try to correct him. It's fine to have feelings of anger, sadness, etc, but I always reassure him that his mom loves him and cares for him deeply and so does he for her.

The problem that my son has is, whenever he tells his mom something that she may not like, she will snap back at him or infer that he is wrong. A child should never feel like they can't tell their parents what they are feeling and if they feel afraid of doing so, then it's a failing on the parents end, not the child's (and in this case, my wife's).

Now I won't deal with my son's problems with his mom for him. If he comes home and says this or that about his mom, then I simply sit down with him and talk to him about what he is feeling. I try to get him to look at things a little differently or in a way that is easier for him to understand. My thought is, if I can't make it easier on my son, then maybe it will then be easier for my son to talk to his mom.
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/17/11 03:15 AM
Okay, so now another trip on the roller coaster that is my life. I pick up my S3 from daycare and take him home where my W will be picking both my boys up after she gets off work. When she picks up the kids, she asks if I want to go out to dinner with her and the kids. My first instinct was to say "no" because usually anytime my W is nice to me, something bad happens shortly afterwards. For example, the last time we had dinner together was the day she filed for D.

So I agree to go to dinner, but I drive separately. Of course my S12 is happy and excited because it's been a while since his mom and dad have done anything together. Dinner goes okay. I try not to stare at her and I try not to look too depressed or too happy. After dinner, I walk them out to her car, give the kids hugs and kisses, put S3 in his car seat and tell my boys that I love them. I shut the car door and my W is standing there and says "thank you for coming to dinner with us" and then gives me a hug, which I really wasn't expecting.

On my way home, my heart is going 1000 beats a second, I'm confused as all hell, and I'm sitting there trying to make sense of things all the while wondering what the hell is going to happen next--when is the other shoe gonna drop?

So much for getting out tonight as this ordeal has royally screwed me up.
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/17/11 01:43 PM
Well if you didn't tell her you love her or kick things up a notch then pat yourself on the back, you just made it "safe" to be hugged!

If she left that experience not feeling responsible for your sadness, then you have achieved progress.

The *hard* part is dealing with your own feelings about it. When it was me and my W showed a little affection after being so cold and distant I just wanted everything to be good again *right now*

You are not there yet. You can expect she'll try to be nice to you again, but she will punctuate that with being mean and withdrawn! That's coming too, prepare to not let that bother you either! Provide no commentary on it "you were nice yesterday but today you are mean". Don't say that.

Also, resist all temptation to tell her that you enjoyed the hug. Anything like that is pursuing and begging her to reciprocate the comment. Keep it in.

You have to walk a bed of hot coals when things start to get a little better. Prepare yourself!

One of the first times my W started being nice to me was when we went out to dinner with friends. She held my hand on the way there while the friends drove, couldn't keep her hands off me through dinner, very happy and upbeat.

When we got home, she wouldn't even look at me and slept on the couch. That worked me over but good!

Accuray
Posted By: Crimson Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/17/11 02:42 PM
LH -

I am really new to all of this stuff, but count your blessings in this situation. The fact that she would have dinner with you and offer a hug is pretty big. I mean, it doesn't sound the "all clear" alarm or anything but that is progress! Feel good about it. Keep doing what you're doing (it appears to be working on SOME level) even though it is hard as h*ll. I am going through the same and haven't seen the positive signs that you have yet - though I think your W has been out of the house longer than mine.

I'm wishing you the best of luck and determination.

Crimson
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/17/11 10:36 PM
@Crimson: She's been out of the house for four months now and I wouldn't call dinner the other night progress. I guess during the dinner, I took my S3 to the restroom and my W told my S12 that "this doesn't mean we're getting back together". Not that I was expecting a dinner to make things all better between us, but why go out of her way to tell our son that? I know my S12 is hopeful and everything, but that's like pouring salt on an open wound.

@Accuray: Yeah, I'm kinda still waiting for the other shoe to drop. If the last four months have taught me anything, it's that nothing good happens without something bad or mean happening shortly after.

One thing I failed to mention about dinner the other night--she was wearing an NFL hoodie with a team logo on it. Now this wouldn't have been an issue when we were still together as she would occasionally were one mine, but my W does not like football and the team logo wasn't of my team, but the one that her "friend" likes. I guess that she also has a matching shirt too. I can't tell you how much that really, really bothers me--it's like she's throwing in my face.
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/18/11 01:44 AM
If W came to dinner with me wearing something that OM had given her, I would lose my s***. You have every right to be angry about that, and good for you for not saying anything! You're making progress Luvhurts. I bet 3 weeks ago you wouldn't have imagined that she would be inviting you to dinner. Look at it that way.

Your "mission" right now is to turn the other cheek and be the better man, which it seems you've been doing. Make it safe to be nice to you. Be stoic, be the rock. Continue to be a great dad. You're doing a GREAT job not badmouthing your W with the kids. They need you to be that positive force for them right now.

When W said "this doesn't mean we're getting back together" she probably said it as much for herself as for S. I'm sure she's having doubts as difficult as it is to see.

Look at it from her perspective, she's left a wake of scorched earth and burning buildings. From where she's sitting, the easy path forward is to pretend what she did was righteous so she doesn't have to look at that wake and wade back through it. Easier to close the door than clean up after yourself.

BUT she can't quite close the door -- you've got kids together, you've got years of shared memories. Although she might have been very mad at you and frustrated with you, deep down she knows you know her better than anyone. It's hard for her to believe that she can be forgiven, that she's worthy of being forgiven. She fears that coming back comes with a boatload of guilt and reprisals.

That's what we're talking about when we say "pave the road back". Act as if the mess is already cleaned up. Act as if you've moved on, found some peace, and bear her no ill-will. Act as if that scorched earth has been replanted and the buildings have been rebuilt. This will allow her to see a road back that doesn't look horribly painful.

The brutal thing is that you have to build that path for her by yourself, with no guarantee of success, and no gratitude whatsoever. The best you can hope for is to have that effort taken for granted and at least get to a new starting line with her.

When you do get to that starting line, the more self respect, self assurance, and personal happiness you've been able to build, the easier the path forward for both of you.

Luvhurts, how are you doing on forgiveness? For most people it's a 2 steps forward 1 step back process. If you can find forgiveness in your heart, it will take a load off and make everything easier.

I'm rooting for you, I think you're starting to see some positive signs -- keep it going! Be the man she would WANT to be with.

Accuray
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/18/11 02:18 AM
I don't know if the OM gave her the clothes or whether she bought them herself. My gut tells me the latter.

As far as forgiveness--yes, I can forgive her. Don't get me wrong, when I found out about OM, I was bursting at the seams with anger, but through it all, I learned that I can and would forgive her if she truly wanted to work on our M. Believe me, I never would have thought that I could ever say that, but yes, I can forgive her. Trust would be a problem, but one that we could overcome as long as she was willing to meet certain demands that I would have such as no contact with OM and other such demands.

I'll tell you, it hasn't been easy even getting to this point. I have all of you to thank for being that calm voice in the storm that is my life, especially Accuray, who has seemed to take a special interest in my situation and for that, I could never repay.

I hope that this is the start to the road back, but I'm not so sure--I have my doubts. I will continue on my path and hope that my W finds her way back to me, back to that love that she used to carry in her heart. To be honest, I know I can SURVIVE without my W, but I'm not so sure that I can really LIVE without her.
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/18/11 03:59 AM
Glad I'm helping Luvhurts, in this medium its hard to tell when I'm missing the mark and just being annoying.

One distinction I'd like to point out. You say you could forgive W if she's willing to work on the marriage and would agree to some demands.

What I'm talking about is forgiving W *now* and without conditions attached. You're not going to do it for her, you're going to do it for you.

If you can forgive her now, regardless of her attitude, you will be much more likely to successfully pave the road back.

It will change how you interact with her without you having to think about it. For you, it will be.a great release. You'll feel better about yourself and will spend less time dwelling on the injustices committed against you.

You have to choose the path of forgiveness, it won't just happen. You may not be ready, things may be too hard right now. Just think about it. Think about what it might take for you to get there and set small goals.

Remember, she wasn't evil and malevolent, she was a person in pain who made some bad decisions and dug herself in deeper and deeper. It wasn't about you, it was about her. You didn't make her do this, she chose it. For that, she can be forgiven, because it came from a place of weakness and hurt.

Just give it some thought, it's a difficult but rewarding road to take.

Accuray
Posted By: NLW Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/18/11 04:20 AM
Accuray,

Can I just say that your posts here are helping me a great deal too.
You have tremendous insight and your advice is something I usually end up copying to file for re-reading over and again.

So, thanks for your contributions; you are helping so many of us.

Luv hurts,

I feel for you on this roller coaster. We all get the "this doesn't mean we're back together" line, but as Accuray says, I think we can all recognise, too, that there is a big dollop of self-convincing going on.
Such statements can be read as a sign that things are going better, but that we need to be patient and not rush it by being too OTT in our response to small steps forward.
Best,
NLW
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/18/11 02:50 PM
Maybe what I should have said is that I have already forgiven my W for what she has done, but we would never be able to rebuild our M unless she was willing to work on it too and meet some demands that I would have.

While I still struggle with the thoughts in my head about my W and OM, they have become less frequent, but not less painful.

Before she left, my W was the kindest, most loving person I have ever known. Only after she left did she become this seemingly hateful person who shows me little positive emotion.

She is acting like a she cares only for herself, going out whenever she wants, spending whatever she wants, and not seeming to care what others think.

I know what she spent during our first month apart, but I would hate to see how much she has spent since. I know that she has bought some things for the kids, which I understand and I can tell that she has bought herself a lot of new clothes. My W has never been real good with money by herself--I'm the only reason we even have a savings. I would hate to see how far in debt she really is.
Posted By: NLW Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/18/11 08:42 PM
Luvhurts,
This sounds SO familiar to me.

"Before she left, my W was the kindest, most loving person I have ever known. Only after she left did she become this seemingly hateful person who shows me little positive emotion. "

Ditto for my H. This is the part I find so hard to deal with.

"My W has never been real good with money by herself--I'm the only reason we even have a savings. I would hate to see how far in debt she really is."

Ditto again, only our finances are still entwined so the debt is shared.
Makes trying to DB so hard when debt issues surface over and over again.

I have found my H doesn't respond well when I pull back. He seems much better in his interactions with me when I am friendly, attentive, happy and 'up'. When I go quiet-ish and minimise my interactions with him, he seems to go into a retaliatory spiral.
Just wondering if you have found anything similar with your W?

Best, NLW
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/19/11 01:39 AM
Our money was intertwined, but then I transferred everything to my name once she stopped putting money into our joint account. The money is still there (well, most of it) and it has already been reported to the L, I just didn't want my W to go on a spending spree.

As far as how my W acts when I pull away, it's really a mixed bag. Some things she reacts better to when I pull away, somethings she reacts better if I try to put on a happy face. Regardless, it is always minimal interaction and rarely do we actually speak. Almost all interaction is about the kids and most communication is via texting or email.

That's why dinner the other night was a bit of a shock since it required interaction and communication not to mention the two of us actually being somewhere at the same time. Of course I still cannot explain the hug, the meaning behind it, or whether it will happen again.

I don't think that I have been this confused since shorty after my W left. Increase in stress, anxiety, and confusion--yep, sounds about right.
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/19/11 04:06 AM
It's a good sign, but there is no way to tell what it "means" and the danger of over thinking it is that you will attach either too much meaning or too little.

It is progress and progress is good. Pat yourself on the back for how you handled it, no pursuing, no overt sadness. Good job! What you did was hard.

Don't over think, let it go. Find something else to think about. Pick an interesting lighthouse and read about its history. Look for small things that can be digested without a major commitment of energy and distract yourself when you think you are going there.

Patience right now, so hard but the best thing you can do.

Accuray
Posted By: westcoastfella Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/19/11 05:56 AM
I want to echo others when I say: Accuray, your posts are always tremendously helpful. They are especially helpful for people going through an A (like Luv and myself), but they're also great for anybody generally dealing with a nutty, spiteful WAS. I've saved so many of your posts, it's unreal!

As for Luv: I hear you, man. My W used to be wonderfully loving, too, but since the A, all that's disappeared. The important thing to realize is that it has way more to do with her than it does you. Think of it this way: what she's doing is so hurtful and unlike herself that she actually has to change into an entirely different person to feel like it's okay!

I would suggest trying to find the documentary about the Stanford Prison Project for perspective. Total proof that people can change entire identities given certain circumstances.

It's very tempting at this point to place all the blame on yourself, but don't make that mistake. Your W is in a place where she would love it if you'd shoulder all of the blame and she didn't have to take any.
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/19/11 02:11 PM
I'm not willing to call it progress or a good sign as yet. If it happens again, then maybe I'll start to look at it as progress or something positive.

Unfortunately, we have our first court appearance this week and I'm sure that it won't be pleasant. Everyone says that divorce is like war and I'm expecting a battle. So, I doubt any of those positive things or expectations will happen anytime soon.

I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop, but until then, all I can do is wait. I just wish I could stop thinking about it though.
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/19/11 06:05 PM
I've been doing a little research the last couple of days and I was looking to see what other people's opinions are.

What I'm looking at, is the differences when the H leaves and the W leaves. It seems to me, when the W leaves, it usually ends up being a more permanent decision than when the H leaves. The H usually ends up being more remorseful and is more likely to return to the marriage as long as too much time hasn't passed. Of course, the phrase "too much time" could be debated.
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/19/11 10:03 PM
Danger Will Robinson (hope you're old enough to remember "Lost in Space")

The problem you get with that type of research is the following:

1) They're talking about broad averages -- on average men are taller than women, but there are many instances when women are taller than men. If you take these "averages" and use them to set expectations for your situation you risk creating self-fulfilling prophesies. Nothing is over until you say it is.

2) "Most" people in this situation don't know about DB and don't find their way here. Therefore, they will react in all the ways that don't work and make the situation worse.

That said, I have also read that *on average* women tend to fear being alone more than men, and will therefore wait a long time before pulling the trigger to leave and will pretend everything is OK in the meantime. That robs us of the chance to respond before it's too late. Often then feel that letting us know they're unhappy may lead to us leaving proactively, and they don't want that. Therefore, when they do leave and it seems spur of the moment, it's really not, they probably have months of planning behind them that we were oblivious to. That's why it's not so quickly reversed, they have debated it for months and we are playing catchup.

The same research suggests that men are more opportunistic with regard to pursuing affair partners and will act more "in the moment" without thinking things through, so they may be more likely to "cake eat" or may be easier to return to the relationship.

All this stuff is just broad generalization though, and some of it may go back to the 50's when things were much different in our society.

I know you're desperate to have your expectations set in terms of how long this will last and what your odds are to reconcile. I read another study that said that people are the most unhappy at work when they don't know what's coming next. That's the situation you find yourself in, there is no timeline, no set of next steps that you can rely on, and for men who like to have a plan that will play into a cause and effect relationship, it's terribly frustrating. You want someone to tell you to just do x, y, and z, and the result will be 1, 2, and 3. Unfortunately that roadmap doesn't exist.

As I've said before, DB is the worst thing you can do in this situation except for all the alternatives. The only thing to take comfort in is knowing that you're doing the best thing you can do, that you'll come out of this a better and stronger person, and that you're being the best parent you can be.

I would be very careful with the averages.

Accuray
Posted By: westcoastfella Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/20/11 03:11 AM
Luv, I remember reading your research, too, and feeling disheartened. In "Not Just Friends," Shirley Glass maintains that when a W leaves, the M will be more likely to crumble and reconciliation will be more unlikely (based on her research).

However, in "After the Affair," Janis Spring notes that when a W has an A, the male LBS is far more likely to find someone else because he's typically more financially solvent and has more options available to him. So it's all in how you look at things.

I think Accuray's right, you're trying to get certainty in a situation filled with uncertainty. Once you learn to let go and allow whatever will be to be, a huge weight will come off of your shoulders. Who ever really knows what happens until it happens?
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/20/11 02:01 PM
I understand what you all are saying about averages and I get that each situation is different, but I was just looking for opinions.

I am very much the worrier and the planner of sorts. When I want to do something, it's very much A, B, and C and when A happens, I expect B to follow. When this doesn't happen, I become lost because I'm not the best at adapting. That's why I'm very deliberate in my planning--sometime too much. I do have a tendency to over-think a situation and in the end, I end up making the same mistakes as I was trying to avoid. I don't know why this is, but it happens to me quite a bit.

I do wish there were a set of steps that I could follow that would fix everything and tell me how long that would take, but I know that is unrealistic. Unfortunately, because I am a fixer and a planner, going into a situation without a plan and just "winging it" goes against who I am and is very difficult for me.
Posted By: macvspc Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/20/11 03:38 PM
LH,

I wonder about averages as well. I think sometimes we focus on what helps us and try to stay away from information that hurts us. "This % of marriages last....."

Another one of those questions about women vs men in sitch like ours. When the WAW is done and has left, some of the things I read say - too late macvspc give up. Women (not to be sexist) make their minds up and that is it, no turning back. Again reading this and trying to make sense of it.
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/20/11 03:56 PM
Quote:
Women (not to be sexist) make their minds up and that is it, no turning back.


I've heard this same statement many times. I think the reasoning behind it is, by the time the W has finally decided to leave, she has spent months if not years contemplating her decision. So the H is already behind in the situation.

I've had friends and family both tell me that I should just let it go and move on with my life. I find this unacceptable. My life, as I see it, includes not just myself and my kids, but my W too. It doesn't matter if we get a D or not, my W will also be "my life". I didn't dedicated the last 20 years to year to give up just because she's in a fog or has given up herself.

The day may come that my W may not matter as much to me as she once did and if it does, then I will make whatever decision I have to at that time. Fortunately, I am not faced with that decision today, so I continue to fight for my family, my W, my M, and my life
Posted By: workinghardguy Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/20/11 04:06 PM
The book "How to Fix Your Marriage Without Saying Anything" does a great job exploring this, and the difference between the genders.

Men typically don't leap until they have a place to land (i.e. another woman). And if that landing place isn't all it's cracked up to be then they may be willing to jump back (or jump elsewhere).

Women tend to not want to jump, period. But they will if they feel alone and secluded. Because of how they are wired, they have a need to connect and attach. If they consider themselves to be alone in the R, then the lack of attachment creates a pain and dissonance they resolve by leaving. At least now they are alone without the dissonance.

Why the woman feels alone can vary greatly. Depression, unemotional husband, the wife's own issues that preclude true attachment, a spouse's issues that preclude attachment, etc... And of course these are all great generalities.

My own personal take is that I believe it is why couples without kids have a harder time at any recon (or one reason at least). The W has an attachment with her kids. The divorce threatens that as well as the children mourn and get angry. This threatens that attachment and creates a different kind of dissonance. Then the W has to choose whether to try again in the hopes to resolve the new dissonance or just deal with it. They may deal with it through medication, self-medication, depression, new guy, or other solutions.

That's the part where the LBH has to have a different perspective on being married, do things differently, and keep the road home paved and smooth. If they can't come back then they'll just find other ways to deal with it.
Posted By: westcoastfella Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/20/11 05:00 PM
I have two replies, Luv:

In regard to your over-thinking: I would really suggest the book "Women Who Think Too Much" by Susan Nolen-Hoeksema. It's more geared toward women because they do it statistically more often, but it seems to me that plenty of men do it, too, including myself. It may give you a lot of insight and allow you to cut out that kind of thinking when it only hurts you.

In regard to "It's over": I've read through every story in the "Another Divorce Busted!" section, and I've heard of many more on the boards. It seems like in almost all of them, the WAS said something like "I don't love you anymore" or "It's over." Yet things eventually changed and the couple reconciled....

I get the reactions of your friends and family. In this culture, we're geared to think that D is the final step. Holding onto hope is "pathetic" or "unhealthy." But then again, none of them know about DB, do they? smile
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/20/11 05:08 PM
I can tell you that my W was a WAW, had an affair, planned leaving for months, read books to help her figure out her sitch, and talked to an IC to help her walk out the door.

She was done -- told me no chance to reconcile, get over it, we can be friends down the line. When I told her I was hurting, she told me "I don't give a f@$% how you're feeling"

Now she's back.

Don't give up because you think its hopeless or because "women don't come back". If you decide to quit trying, do it because that is the right decision for you and what you want.

I'm reading "Why Good People Have Affairs". It says there are 17 affair types. If you read the list and try to figure out which one fits your W's sitch, it may present you with some insight.

I have to warn you that the book is written to be sympathetic to the unfaithful partner and that was very hard for me to stomach originally, it made me feel ill. I can read it now because I'm further along the healing path. If you've got the strength for it, it may be helpful.

Accuray
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/20/11 05:25 PM
Unfortunately for me, my W left right away. By that I mean, I don't think that she was having a PA until after she moved out of the house. There wasn't any apparent warning, she just up and left.

I have gotten the same basic responses, I don't love you anymore, I don't love you that way, we've grown apart, we're more like friends than lovers, we should never have gotten married, it was all a mistake, i blame you for this or that, this thing X years ago is your fault, I can't forgive you for something that nobody remembers anymore, I can't trust you for something you did 18 years ago (not an A or anything like that), blah, blah, blah.

I know it's all BS, but it still hurts regardless. I'm being blamed for things that she said she forgave me for years ago, yet they are still being brought up. In her eyes, I'm not allowed to make mistakes--ever, but if she makes a mistake, you better not ever bring it up.

I just feel like I am at a disadvantage because she doesn't live in our home any longer. Not being able to see her or her being able to see me (and any resulting changes) puts me in a chasing position.

I don't want to give up, but I also don't want to be played with or dangled on the end of a string either. I just don't rightfully know what to do. All I know is how I feel.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/20/11 05:41 PM
Quote:
Unfortunately, because I am a fixer and a planner, going into a situation without a plan and just "winging it" goes against who I am and is very difficult for me.


People like you and I are often thought of as being perfectionists. You may not see yourself as one, but your family may. If you make those around you miserable with your steps, schedules, and plans, and/or worse....when your plan doesn't work, then they will dread everything that includes you. You will be, sooner or later, avoided by your friends & family.

Being a fixer is an excuse. We all are fixers by some degree. These things you've described in the previous post is or shouldn't be something to be proud about. It is something you need to change! Hard? Probably. It was for me. But if you care how your loved ones feel, you'll find a way to stop with your little steps and going from A to B, and learn that some things just don't have the steps and can't be given a time frame. Some things we have to learn to go with the flow. Helps us to be more relaxed, too. frown
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/20/11 05:50 PM
I wouldn't say that I am a perfectionist, but rather controlling. I am working very hard on not being so controlling--on not having to know everything and always having to be right all the time. Is it hard? You're damn straight it is, but I'm trying.
Posted By: CO1978 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/20/11 06:02 PM
I agree completely with Sandi on this. I was a perfectionist. It was one of the things that led to my W leaving. It took a lot to change the way of thinking and is still hard to do. Everyone has their own view of perfection, and we have to accept that. So in sense there is no true perfection. When people don't do things the way WE want them do, it doesn't mean its not right, its just their way of doing it, and we have to accept that.
Posted By: Crimson Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/20/11 06:10 PM
Sandi and LH -

This strikes a very significant chord with me, as I now can freely admit that I am a perfectionist (and slighty OCD) and it more than likely contributed to the decline of my M. The sad part is - you never really THINK you're being damaging - rather, I awlays thought I was acting in the best interests of my W and S. What I didn't see was a clear "I know best" attitude that probably stabbed at my wife like a dull pin. Paired with my height and loud voice (see my previous thread) I can see how my tendencies were taken poorly.

I am mad at myself because I never acted out of a lack of love. Quite the opposite, really - I just didn't know the terrible result it was causing - or just wasn't able to see it.

It is very hard to change this behavior because 1.) It's been going on a long time, and 2.) Life rarely affords me an opportunity to show my W that I am letting go of this part of my personality.

Stay at it, LH - I'm right there with you.

Crimson
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/20/11 06:38 PM
A side effect of being a perfectionists is also at times being a procrastinator or just not completing a task out of fear.
Posted By: JamesG Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/20/11 06:48 PM
Rick-

Very, very true, IMO. My desire to do things "perfectly" in my M led me to take way too much time to complete projects. My W (very reasonably) complained about the lack of process with this projects but I did not hear her for any number of reasons, including those you listed. I now realize how turned off she was by my trying to give her my version of the "perfect" project. Thanks for the input.
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/20/11 09:08 PM
I am also a perfectionist (anyone seeing a pattern?) but I am not controlling. The thing I learned recently in IC is that even though I didn't expect anything of W, ask about what she was doing or criticize her in any way, just being around a perfectionist is a huge pain in the a$$.

If you're with someone who is constantly pushing themselves and commenting on things that aren't to their liking, it doesn't take much to assume they're thinking the same about you (even if they're not), and to feel inadequate by comparison.

People like people who make them feel good about themselves. If you're constantly outshined, you're not going to feel good, and eventually you're going to want to escape that situation, no matter how "nice" or good your spouse is.

One learning is to be more vulnerable with your spouse, let them know about your shortcomings, let them help you instead of you always helping them. Slow down on what you're trying to accomplish when they're around. Think about how you effect them, even if you think it's irrational.

That's my recent epiphany anyway...

Accuray
Posted By: NLW Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/20/11 10:13 PM
You're right Accuray, about the pattern: I am also a perfectionist with big control tendencies.

I'd like to echo Crimson's point about it being hard to change. In my case, I have a lot of authority and status at work, and it's a traditionally male domain - so I feel I have brought these traits into my personal life as well.

I can see how my H got fed up with me being like I am.

I've been trying to change in the way I interact with my kids, but there's less opportunity to do things differently with a spouse who's pretty much set on a course of bankrupting us through bad business decisions and reckless spending.

If any perfectionists, outshiners, and good hearted I-know-besters have any tips or specific examples about what's worked for them, please tell more.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/20/11 11:08 PM
Interesting take on the viewpoints. I didn't realize I was controlling until my children were almost grown. I couldn't see it, but after it was pointed out quite unexpectedly(and I revived from my shock), I worked on that part really hard. And for those who are thinking about it,I can tell you that I find times that it's still very difficult. But, as I get older (and hopefully wiser)I tend to be able to let go and accept those things I cannot change. That is very important when your children get M and have a family of their own. And you siblings, and....so on.

Being a fixer sure sounds better than "controller", doesn't it? Gee, I just wanted my family to be happy! Problem was, I must have thought I knew what was best for them.

Maybe certain personalities tend to produce the controllers more so than others. Maybe it depends on the birth order, IDK. crazy I didn't stand much chance either way....lol. But we "can" change the way we are in many things....if we want to bad enough, and if we continue working to get the right results. Now that sounds familiar! wink

I don't see controlling quite the same as being a perfectionist, but that's JMHO. (If a controller or perfectionist can have a humble opinion.)

Do you all believe that perfectionism is a learned behavior or inherited? grin Sometimes I swear I can see my mother when I look at myself!
Posted By: workinghardguy Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/20/11 11:19 PM
I used to teach a course to the parents of the students at an at-risk kids' school. A major theme of that class was that as your kids get older your level of control decreases proportionately. Parents who miss that often end up in set battles as they up the control and the child pushes back even harder. You can grab a five year old and put him in his room... Harder to do with a 16 year old smile

As the kids age it becomes more about influencing, advising, and setting boundaries. Positive reinforcement helps continue selected behaviors and the use of consequences (preferably naturally occurring ones) to discourage out-of-bounds behavior.
Posted By: NLW Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/21/11 12:05 AM
Amen to that WHG.

I have a nearly-16-y-o daughter, and I can see my controlling tendencies being a MAJOR problem for our relationship.

If nothing else good comes from my H's walking away, at least I will have woken up to the fact that I have these problems in my interactions with the ones I love the most.
I try to do what's best for everyone without taking into account that others may not want it this way. And I'm so much older, so much more knowledgable, used to being the expert, etc, etc. Might work in my job, but NOT at home.

Now if only I knew how to translate my understanding of my interactional problems into some different way of doing things! Pos rft is one great tool, as is natural consequences (but this is so hard with kids and others we love).
Posted By: westcoastfella Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/21/11 04:45 AM
Originally Posted By: luvhurts49

I just feel like I am at a disadvantage because she doesn't live in our home any longer. Not being able to see her or her being able to see me (and any resulting changes) puts me in a chasing position.


Not so -- you're only in the chasing position if you put yourself there. I'm six months into my sitch, also dealing with an OM. W lives half of the country away from me, and because of her behavior, I've been avoiding her like the plague. Yet she still pursues me and constantly wants to find out what I'm doing.

Let your W go. There may be a long time that goes by where she seems to have forgotten you, but you can almost be assured that once enough time goes by, she will start to inch back. GAL in the meantime.
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/21/11 06:47 PM
I wish my W would pursue me, but she really doesn't care what it is that I'm doing. I have not initiated contact with her for 2 months. I know that doesn't sound like a long time, but to me it's an eternity.

So we had court today. Nothing too exciting other that we keep our same schedules with the kids and no child support as yet for either of us. I have exclusive rights to the house and she has to pay half the mortgage for the time being. Of course any of this can change since we have also been ordered to mediation, which is gonna make it kinda hard to not talk to her. I can't begin to tell you all how hard it was not to just go up to her and give her the biggest hug in the world. God I miss my W.
Posted By: workinghardguy Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/21/11 07:09 PM
Luv... sorry about the court date... I can only imagine how hard it must be to be in that adversarial situation across from someone who is that last you want to be adversary.

So you have had no contact with her? Even regarding the kids?
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/21/11 07:20 PM
When we drop the kids off to one another, it's usually just "hi" and "bye" and maybe a "drive safe". Anything else is usually just handled via text, but even then it's short and to the point.
Posted By: NLW Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/21/11 09:57 PM
LH, I feel for you.

As hard as it is, just remember that we're doing what we HAVE to do.

There's no better way to increase the chances that our spouses will come to their senses and take a look at what they're missing.

You're strong enough to do whatever it takes to make yourself a better person that, as the saying goes, only a fool would leave.

So keep on keeping on.

Best,
NLW
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/22/11 12:32 AM
Agreed Luvhurts,

Good for you for not giving her that hug. That took incredible strength, and I can only imagine the depth of your pain and loss. That said, the court date is now behind you so that's one less thing to dread. Mediation will not be all bad, they do generally like to see marriages survive, so they may require some MC which can only help.

Good luck to you my friend, try to tune it out and find some enjoyment for yourself over the holiday. Since you're hurting for cash and have extra time on your hands, any chance you could find a "fun" second job that you could put a limited number of hours into? Good way to meet new people and take your mind off things.

One of my friends is being a parking lot attendant at a ski resort. He had to commit to 8 days and gets a season pass for free in exchange. Volunteer opportunities would be another thing to look into to warm up the heart, meet some people, and build some self esteem.

Accuray
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/22/11 02:46 PM
All I can say is WOW!!! My W texts me yesterday asking if I'm home yet because she wants some statements that are in a binder sitting in the garage. I text her back saying that I'm not home yet.

Getting suspicious, I call my mom to go over to my house. She walks over there and no sooner does she get in the house, my W shows up and rings the doorbell. My mom does not answer the door. Now I can't swear that the binder was in the garage, but if it was, it isn't there now. My mom isn't sure if my W actually got into the garage, but she my W hurry back to her car and drive off in a rush.

I don't know what happened between last Friday and yesterday, but talk about a completely different person. She's now accusing me of lying to her, spending or hiding marital assets, turning our friends against her, stalking her, making false allegations, and many other things. I just don't get it. She is just coming completely unhinged.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/22/11 05:15 PM
Until you realize this is not your W, you will continue to be in the "wow" stage. Expect the worse. I doubt that you've seen the worst yet. Be on the lookout.

Stop thinking how you want to give her a great big hug. Just out of curiosity, would you have wanted to hug her if she had been on OM's arm there in court?
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/22/11 05:18 PM
It sounds like she's acting paranoid. All I can tie this back to is my theory that she is making you out to be a mustache-twisting villain to justify what she's doing.

She's giving you a role to play to make her feel better about her actions, and unfortunately for her, you're not playing your role. You're actually being civil, a good father, pleasant and supportive.

She probably realizes that and the more it sinks in, the worse she feels about her actions. Eventually she can't take it anymore and she has to go off on another tirade about how evil you are to stoke her imaginary justification.

I think the best thing you can do is to shift your perspective and see it as coming from a place of fear on W's part. Do not play the role she's trying to push you into. She wants you to be mean and nasty so she can say "SEE! I've made the right decision" Don't give her that satisfaction.

Crimson is going through something similar, only not as bad. W wants you to act out to reinforce the choices she has made. She's baiting you.

Continue to be pleasant and supportive, "act as if" it doesn't bother you. That's all you can do.

Accuray
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/22/11 05:27 PM
LuvHurts,

The other explanation here is that your W is truly delusional and has lost touch with reality. If you feel that's a possibility and you're concerned about the kids, you might want to start keeping a detailed journal of the irrational things she says and does.

If everything unfolds in the worst way and you have mental health issues to face, you'll appreciate having documentation later.

I hope this is not the case and my prior explanation is the correct one.

Accuray
Posted By: NLW Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/22/11 11:20 PM
Luvhurts, Accuray,

Just wanted to add that I'm seeing the same sort of nasty, paranoid behaviour in the last month or so from my H. He was fine being a part of our 'faux' marriage and 'happy' family for 3 months as a 'sleep-away dad', and then he TURNED.

I became the evil STBEXwife who he had to battle for 'his share' of our finances. And he went crazy towards me - literally, I suspect (mood disorder/bipolar).

So I think Accuray's take on your situation is very apt. Probably a bit of both, from my experience.

I feel exactly like I am being positioned in a script where much of the dialogue takes place in H's head, or between him and his divorced and bitter male housemates.

And I am now keeping a detailed journal, as lc4 suggested on my thread.

My best to you, I know how hard this latest twist is.
NLW.
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/24/11 05:02 PM
I hope you're right Accuray and she is just being paranoid. I'm sure that she sees me as the guilty party and she thinks that I'm this mean person who doesn't care about anything buy money. First and foremost, my kids come first and I really couldn't give a damn about money as long as I'm financially able to take care of my kids. I really don't want anything from her except what is fair.

As I stated before, we had our first court appearance and I know that she was upset afterwards. She must have thought that I got more than I deserve, but seeing how we've been ordered to mediation, what was ordered isn't likely to last long-term anyhow.

My confusion comes from what she thought court was going to be like. I mean, she started this whole thing and has spoken with her L numerous times. What did she think it was gonna be like? D and court suck, it's a battle, it's war. What did she think, that it was going to be all wine and roses? That she was going to walk in and get everything she wanted?

I'll tell you what, I am tired of being portrayed as the bad guy here. My kids know that I love them and that I'll do anything for them. My W knows that I love her and I want our M to work. Buy I am just sick and tired of being the bad guy and that everything is my fault anytime my W doesn't get what she wants or if she has some kind of sudden mood change.
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/25/11 03:10 PM
Christmas day is here and it feels just how I thought it would. I dropped my kids off to my W last night and even though I've had them the last 3 days, I find myself missing my kids more than ever. And it's not just my kids, but my W, who I love with all my heart, I miss just as much. Never did I think that I would ever have to go through the holidays without my W standing beside me. I so wish to have my M whole again.
Posted By: Crimson Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/25/11 03:19 PM
Chin up, LH. I am feeling the exact same way today. Know that your kids love and miss you, too. Who knows what next year, next Christmas will hold, friend. Keep busy today and remember - tomorrow is just December 26th. It will all be behind us.

Crimson
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/26/11 01:33 AM
Today wasn't a very good day for me. Without my kids for the first time on Christmas day. I know it should be just another day, but it isn't. I find myself day dreaming about my W and what she looked like when I dropped my kids off yesterday--dreaming about what should have been.

This is supposed to be the joyous time of year, yet it is the hardest time to be without your family--the people that mean the most in your life. I find myself crying most of the day away thinking about things that I've lost, time that I will never get back, and the time that I will not have with my kids going forward.

Today is supposed to be filled with love and happiness, yet I find myself alone, depressed, and unhappy. I try to do everything I can to make myself better. I pave the road to make things easier. I do whatever it takes to make things right. But I do not see the light and the end of this tunnel--I can only hope that it is there.
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/26/11 06:54 PM
Well, I made the first mediation appointment today. I guess the end of my M is closer than I want it to be, but what else can I do? This is all moving too fast. I feel like my life is out of control and the only end that I see is one that has me and my W apart. Today is hard because I am not in control of my emotions and I have this painful hurt in my heart that will not go away. I cannot stop thinking about my W and what it is that I am losing.
Posted By: westcoastfella Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/27/11 01:07 AM
Don't worry, Luv. The first few months are definitely excruciating. I remember those days and recognize them as the lowest point in my existence thus far. But it does get better, even though it feels like it never will. Everyone eventually gets over whatever happens to them as long as they keep on keepin' on.
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 12/29/11 02:40 PM
Got to spend some time with my kids that last couple of days and boy does that make a difference. I love my kids with all my heart, but it really kills me that I don't get to see them everyday.

The W is being vicious again, accusing me of things that aren't true and again giving me different reasons for leaving. It seems like the reasons go back and forth on different things and how she is feeling on that day. If it was just the "I don't love you anymore" excuse and that was it, then part of me would understand, but when you leave and it's one reason, then a few weeks later it another reason, then a month later it's yet another reason, it gets really tiresome. I think she is just searching for a reason that makes sense to her so it can justify her leaving.

Her entire family has pretty much written me off and removed me from their lives, which is pretty sad really. I've know these people for over 20 years and now nothing. Hell, I even helped her two sisters learn to drive and tried to be supportive whenever possible, now it's like I don't exist.

I am getting really tired of this whole situation. One day it's one thing, the next it's another. I love my W and I love my family and it really hurts me to see the sadness and confusion in my sons eyes. If nothing else, I wish for his pain to go away, because for me, to see my son in so much pain hurts me more than my than my own.

I'm in this for the long haul and I won't give up. At times I may be down and feel like all is lost and when I do, I hope to be able to turn to this forum and its members for support, just as you have always done and for that I thank each and every one of you.
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 01/03/12 05:23 PM
With the holidays now over, I must admit that the last 2 weeks have been really hard for me. Not seeing my kids everyday is hard, but it's even harder when I don't see them on X-Mas morning or during half of their X-mas break. Usually we do something as a family during this time, but with the pending D and the resulting loss of funds, we couldn't do much besides just me spending some quality time at home with the kids.

No amount of preparation could have prepared me for the loss that I felt during the holidays. From not being able to see the look in my kids and W's eyes as they open presents X-mas morning. To not being able to hold and kiss my W at the stroke of midnight on January 1st and the excitement in my kids eyes as they drink sparkling grape juice to celebrate the new year.

I know everyone says that 2012 will be better and that we will all get through this, but I don't know how to feel anymore. I want to get through this, but I also want to be with my W. I just feel that sometimes just getting through it means that I am giving up on my M and my W.
Posted By: lostadrift Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 01/03/12 07:10 PM
I can relate to alot of what ur feeling Luv. Our timeline and sitch are pretty similar. Ive been through the mediation part aswell, not fun. It is amazing though how this brings us so much closer to our kids and im thankfull for that. Im sure your W has noticed too and thats a positive. My W has even critisized me for all the love and attention ive been giving my kids.I walked away with a smile.

Keep up the good work!
Posted By: westcoastfella Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 01/05/12 04:06 AM
I totally get what you're saying about your W coming up with a laundry list of reasons why YOU are the reason the M fell apart. I too have probably heard 10-20 reasons why I am 110% to blame and why OM is the solution. Probably has a lot more to do with her own rationalization process rather than what's real.

Sorry to hear about your in-laws, man. It's terrible just how cold people can be in a sitch like that. But then again, blood runs thick. Their reaction doesn't surprise me.
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 01/20/12 07:35 PM
How's it going Luvhurts? Any progress? How are you feeling?

Accuray
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 01/24/12 06:02 PM
Well it's been 3 weeks since I've last been on here and not much has changed. Was ordered to mediation and that failed and now waiting to proceed to the next step.

My W keeps telling me that one day I'll thank her for leaving, but it just pisses me off every time she says it. It's like saying, you'll thank me one day for cutting off your arm...yea gee, thanks.

Had a argument over wanting to switch a day with our kids so I could go do something special with them. She wanted to swap a whole weekend because she wants to watch the superbowl. It's amazing how someone can complain for years about my insistence on watching football while she herself has never shown the lease bit of interest in it, but now all of a sudden she wants to watch football??? (and it's more than just watching the superbowl...she's been watching other football games as well). It just ticks me off.

Let's see, what else? She is still very argumentative and moody. She will complain about something or make comments about thing that I didn't even say or do, yet it's still my fault. Then later, it's all miss nicey nice and please and thank you's. Not to mention the little hand on my shoulder thing or putting her hand on my side when dropping off our youngest in the mornings.

Ya know, it would just be nice if crap would just be one way. You wanna be a cold hearted b***h, then be one. If you wanna be sweet and nice, then let's get this stuff figured out so we can make our M better. I can't continue with the back and forth, mean and then nice crap that she's been feeding me for the last 5 months. I am just simply tired of it. I love my W and I love my kids, but this whole thing is tearing me apart and I know that it's not even close to being over.
Posted By: FaithnAK Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 01/24/12 07:59 PM
This is where you need to understand that YOU can actually change this course.

If you truly grow tired of it you will motivate yourself to focus on your happiness. You lead it where you can control your emotions and safely detach from the roller coaster.

Reverse your role. You have no control over her actions, but you can sure control yours. If she touches you, push her hand away. She tries to hug you, walk away. She talks about what she thinks is reality, politely end the conversation. Everything that feels like it's the wrong thing to do is probably the right thing to do right now.

You taking control over your emotions and removing her 'buttons' is an act of strength. It is self empowering to know that you are controlling your feelings and leading your life in the direction you need to go even if it hurts like hell while your doing it.

If she never consistently acts a certain way, well, then all you have is yourself. What is best for you? What makes you get through the day?
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 01/24/12 08:45 PM
I will second that, if you can find a way to remove her power over you, it's amazingly liberating. MUCH easier said than done, but doing the opposite, like FaithnAK suggests is a good approach. If you don't accept her hostility and rewritten history, then don't accept her nicey nice and physical overtures either. If she puts her hand on your shoulder, step away.

Accuray
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 02/06/12 01:54 PM
Back at it again. W tells me the other day that we need to sit down and figure this D stuff out. Now I've given her 3 chances to be amicable about this and had it thrown back into my face each time including the failed court order mediation. Now she says that we have to get this figured out because she's so far in debt that she's gonna have to file for bankruptcy and that will affect me as well.

Ya know, I make just a bit more than she does, I have more bills (granted she does pay half the mortgage) and I still am able to survive. She lives at her dad's house, only pays for groceries, and she's already maxed out her credit card (it's only in her name) and likely can't even afford to pay her attorney any longer. Now this will likely put the house in jeopardy, which is one of the few stable foundations that our kids have. It's very frustrating!!!
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 02/15/12 03:35 PM
I don't know why she says the things she says. Last week she tells me that we need to move on and that it is for the best. The best for who? Me, her, our kids, who? She says that she has done too much and that we have nothing to build on. Wait, so a M and home and two kids and 20 years together is nothing to build on? What the hell does it take to have something to build on?

Needless to say I'm very frustrated at this point. I love my W and love every moment I get to spend with the kids, but everything she says just eats away at me and I hate the times when I don't have my kids.

Last weekend, my W invited me to dinner with her and the kids last weekend. I was sick, so I didn't go, but why would she even offer. She's stated many times that she doesn't want me to get the wrong idea or give me or our kids false hope, so why ask to go out to dinner together? Even my oldest doesn't understand why she invited me. And why is she even going out to dinner if she is so broke?
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 02/15/12 03:49 PM
I know its tough, but you need to let her become mired in the consequences of her choices.

You have not detached yet either. The importance of detaching cannot be overstated. I was told eraly on that detaching was the "cornerstone" of the LBS's salvation. Once you come to realize this, you will be able to step back and appreciate or recognize what is going on around you. She tells you she does not want you to have false hope? Fine, detach. She may eventually find that the dish she ordered is unpalatable - "wait a second, I did not order this?"

I hope this makes sense. This is hard stuff man - I struggle everyday still just as many otehers around here.
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 02/16/12 03:35 PM
I know, detaching is tough. I've been trying to detach for some time now, but I keep holding on for some reason. I try and get out to have some fun, but when I return home, my thoughts always go back to my W and my M.

Something she said to me recently has been bothering me lately. Now she says that she loves me and will always care for me and she says that she can see that I have become a better person and a better father. What gets me is she also says that she doesn't want to be with someone where it takes a relationship to get to the point we're at before I see that there is a problem.

Now I've read numerous books about this particular subject recently and it's not like I am much different than most men. Most men don't see problems until things blow up or come crashing down around us. That is not an excuse, it's just simple statistics and is the way most men are.

Seven years ago, when we had problems before, we had a talk about this very topic. Simply put, I told my W that I am not a mind reader. If there is a problem with our R, then you need to hit me in the head with a brick to make sure I know that there is a problem. At that time she had promised me to do so, but now she says that she shouldn't have to do that. Is this just another argument for her use as her justification for putting an end to our M or something else?
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 02/17/12 03:33 PM
I wish I could get back to a point where my W and I could just talk to one another. We never used to have a problem with doing the simplest things like making small talk or eating, but now it's like we can't do anything together.

So not only am I having a hard time detaching, but also finding out that "someone" had sent her a dozen roses for Valentine's Day. My mind is going a hundred miles and hour without any sign of slowing down. People keep telling me that it will get better. My question is when cause I don't see it.
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 02/17/12 03:52 PM
Continue on your journey here. She is on an entirely different journey. Of course her receiving the roses is going to hurt. I would be livid, but come here to vent. Not too long ago I would come home after a night out with friends, just to find the ever-present specter of depression and anguish waiting for me. That will improve in time - no advice can change that. I found jumping on this board to offer some salvation late at night. It will get better - one way or the other. wink
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 03/07/12 06:08 PM
Been a few weeks since I've been on here. For the first time in quite some time, my W and I had a sit down talk (my suggestion). My intention for this was to voice my thoughts on some things and to basically just get some things off my chest--nothing too major, but things that I've had bottled up for some time.

Basically I found out that my W has been depressed since the birth of our last son (3 years) and that she would find herself crying in the shower or eating snacks to overcome the depression. Keep in mind that my W is not the easiest person to read, I told her that I didn't know that she was depressed and that she never told me. She blames me for her depression and as a result, not being able to lose weight. She also said that she felt more alone when we were together than she does now out on her own. She says that she still loves me, but not how a W should and that we will never get back together again.

Now I've heard a lot of this before (except the depression part) and I told her that we have a problem communicating and she agreed. It seems that every time we have a problem we both work hard at fixing it and our communication become better. After a period of time, our communication starts to get bad again but we can't seem to figure out how to get it back until things completely blow up.

At this point I told her that it is obvious to me that in order to help fix our communication problems, that we need to seek professional help (ie communication workshops, couples therapy, etc). She tells me that it would only help with co-parenting. I simply said that I understand her point of view, but it is my hopes that by being able to communicate with each other again that we will both realize that we not only still love each other, but that we still want to be with each other.

I told her that I didn't want an answer right now and I really don't want her to think about it on that day, but to put some thought into it another time and to let me know whether this is something that she would be willing to do. I've found some great places that specialize in couples communication and have some great reviews/results. I am hopeful that she will be agreeable to going to one of these.

I know this is backsliding a bit, but I'm at the end of my rope. I've lost almost all communication with my W, D is heating up, and things are become much more complicated.
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 03/07/12 08:05 PM
Hi Luvhurts49, I was thinking about you the other day wondering how things are going. Unfortunately I think that as long as OM is involved you're going to be fighting against the current. Even if you do get W to go to a couples communication class with you, she's still not viewing you as a couple right now, so she's not going to be coming in committed, you know?

There's nothing wrong with throwing a hail mary pass, but know that a lot of what she's saying are just excuses. She had an opportunity to get involved with OM and she decided to take it. What she's telling you now is mainly just going to be justifications for what she's done, so responding to those complaints or sentiments isn't going to get you anywhere.

She's going to re-write history so that she's comfortable with her actions. You don't have to participate in that fantasy.

I'm very sorry things haven't gotten any better, that sux, it's so difficult and hard to understand. I don't know how you're doing financially but I would renew my recommendation to speak with a DB coach.

Accuray
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 03/16/12 07:58 PM
Well, I took the kids to the park yesterday and asked the W if she wanted to go along and she said no, that she was too tired. I asked her if she wanted me to text her when the kids and I are going to leave to get dinner and she said sure.

So we get done at the part and I texted the W to see if she wanted to go with us to get something to eat. She said sure, so I swung by her dad's house (where she is staying) to pick her up.

Dinner went fine. I had a hard time not wanting to reach out to her, but I didn't. She complained a bit about money and her car that keeps breaking down.

After dinner we all went out to get some clothes for the kids since I don't have much in the way of summer clothes for them. The W helped me pick out some clothes and stuff for the boys which was nice.

After all that, I dropped her back off at her dad's house. She gave the boys hugs and kisses, and I gave her a hug and whispered into her ear that I missed her. I pulled back and she said, "unfortunately, I don't" and went inside.

In three short words, she literally destroyed me. I know she loves me, I know she cares about me, and I'm pretty sure that with all things being equal, she would prefer to be together than apart, but what can I do to help her miss me? I haven't had hardly any contact with her since October and with the D and custody issues in full effect, things will only become more bitter. I could use to encouraging words. Will spending time with her and the kids help her miss being with me? What can I do?
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 03/16/12 08:11 PM
"but what can I do to help her miss me?"

I guess you can only miss something when you don't see it. And we want things that we can't have. Telling her that you miss her is persuing. So she does not miss you. Accuray is right if you can get a DB coach go for it.
Posted By: MrBond Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 03/16/12 08:30 PM
Did you read DR or DB? Stick to the 37 rules.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 03/16/12 10:46 PM
Originally Posted By: luvhurts49
Well, I took the kids to the park yesterday and asked the W if she wanted to go along and she said no, that she was too tired. I asked her if she wanted me to text her when the kids and I are going to leave to get dinner and she said sure.

So we get done at the part and I texted the W to see if she wanted to go with us to get something to eat. She said sure, so I swung by her dad's house (where she is staying) to pick her up.

why invite her? To pursue....and how'd that go? Did you get the DB books or read the 37 rules Sandi assembled?

While You say the dinner was "fine"
- if the goal of slowly building friendship which could possibly lead to more later, then you should have left it at that.

instead of building on the bonding experience of a relaxed dinner together

You grew immediate expecations AND
YOU PRESSED HER BY TELLING HER YOU MISSED HER...as if she didn't know.

Sweetie, You have to actually DO the DB program to have it work. You cannot do it for 3 days or weeks and then backslide and wonder what went wrong,

If she felt safe enough to have dinner with you then maybe progress HAD been made.

But then you blew it b/c you leaped from that basic comfort around you to wanting more then.


Dinner went fine. I had a hard time not wanting to reach out to her, but I didn't. She complained a bit about money and her car that keeps breaking down.

Don't try to FIX

(b/c if often comes off to us as a man wanting the woman to shut up, b/c hey, he "solved" the problem by telling her what to do OR not to care about it so much. Now move onto another topic...)

But many times women need/want to be heard
so, just listen and validate that she feels stressed or concerned about her car's safety & that you can see why.


After dinner we all went out to get some clothes for the kids since I don't have much in the way of summer clothes for them. The W helped me pick out some clothes and stuff for the boys which was nice.

After all that,


after all what? A few hours without conflict? Man you have to just let that be.


I dropped her back off at her dad's house. She gave the boys hugs and kisses, and I gave her a hug and whispered into her ear that I missed her. I pulled back and she said, "unfortunately, I don't" and went inside.

In three short words, she literally destroyed me. I know she loves me, I know she cares about me, and I'm pretty sure that with all things being equal, she would prefer to be together than apart,


why do you believe these^^^ things? (I am not denying them but want to know what empirical evidence you have of it.) Don't make too much of her words...you asked for it really.

Instead of challenging her choices (which you pursuing her DOES) stop it. The more you challenge her choices

the more she defends them and the more she stands by them. Back off so she can see what she's creating without you hovering over her to get her back.


but what can I do to help her miss me?


Be less available obviously. If availability were what she wanted from you, she would be back by now.

She has to believe 2 things to come back to you.

First, SHE must believe that marriage to you can be different/better than before.

And she must believe she might lose you.


What are YOU DOING (not words but actions) to SHOW her that these things?


I haven't had hardly any contact with her since October and with the D and custody issues in full effect, things will only become more bitter.

why? Just let the L's do their part which is the ugly stuff so you are not associated directly with it.


I could use to encouraging words. Will spending time with her and the kids help her miss being with me? What can I do?


you just spent time with her and the kids and then you pursued her and she said she did not miss you.

So is your question "Should I do more of what does NOT work?"

You know the answer. But you are lonely, so you wish we'd say "go after her."
Then you'd feel you are "Doing something" but that is a control thing. You don't control her.

You cannot "make her miss" you. You can only give her something to miss, by having good times with the kids

(that she is NOT a part of, b/c they will tell her what joyful fun you had and she will know she missed it) and

no woman is unmoved by loving interactions between her children and their father.


Be the best dad you can be --for them, for you and for the r you have with their mother.

The only cure I have for your loneliness other than time with your kids is GAL, and I really want to hear how YOU ARE GAL.

I will read ALL of your posts before I comment further, but based on just these past few and Bond's words (and others)

you need to stay with the basics and master them.

Consistent change + sufficient time = change our spouse can believe in.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 03/17/12 02:02 AM
LH

I read your whole thread (all 3.)

When you two separated the first 2 times, did YOU change? She SAID you didn't or that your changes did not last.

Also when she first left this time you eventually admitted that you believed "she'd eventually realize HER mistake and come home. "

Too bad you believed that b/c it means you avoided digging deep to figure out what YOU could work on to change YOU.

You conceded that you have an unfortunate need to be right, even while then saying "and I usually am"...and seeing no irony in that comment. (More on the need to be right later...) You said "When someone meets me for the first time, they either say that I'm shy or that I'm an a$$hole. I am naturally argumentative and always have a need to be right which leads some people to think that I'm also arrogant or full of myself. I'm currently working on these as part of my 180's, but I do appreciate the sentiment though"...

You said "before w left" You were critical and impatient with her and the kids...and that you had a temper with them.

You also say you have seen your 12 y/o son act this way too.

You were also depressed a lot.

You made a lot of comments about working on those negative traits of yours and even getting an IC to help you b/c

you admit that its NOT just the marital relationship in which you find yourself disliked, (see above)
I suspect by "shy" you mean quiet and possibly unfriendly...

so these are things that are NOT YOUR W's responsibility at all, AND you have known of them for years.

I think you get that they bugged and hurt her more than you realize AND those traits hurt YOU and your life too. It's all your stuff to work on AND that is good news

Why? B/c

Then you are not powerless.


If you were a perfect h and dad AND still your w left you , then you'd be screwed.



Finding our flaws to work on to improve is empowering.
Do you Get that?

Then in November you said "If there were an OM, at least I'd know it was not MY fault...it'd be b/c of HER"..

and that is a remarkably inaccurate statement. AND DOES NOT HELP YOU...

The OM is a symtom not a cause.
Get that.

Your wife is No serial cheater so this is her first A....why now? B/C she does not believe
That you are different and that marriage to you could be better.

What I am hearing is you deflecting any responsibility (or minimizing it,) from yourself (even after revealing a lot of things anyone would need to work on and that any spouse would find tough to cope with or be around...)

It's like you have amnesia about your role in this, and that your anger is paramount and self righteous.

Hey I know you are also very wounded and I am sorry..but that anger is hurting YOU more than anyone else, except maybe your boys...


You said

when one party does not uphold their end of the contract, how come there isn't any laws that can be used to punish the guilty party? For example, my W had an A, thus she is guilty of infidelity and should be punished by the law.
----
I didn't decide to have an A, I didn't leave my M, I didn't decide to do this to my kids. I'm not saying that I couldn't have done things better, but I'm not the bad guy here and she certainly isn't righteous (but should be guilty).



Wow...how's that judgemental approach working for you?


Of course it's not! And unfortunately you can tell us all how much calmer you are now and how you are less irritable with or around her,

but what I read is pursuit and repeating what does not work

and self righteousness, anger, and the NEED TO BE DECLARED "RIGHT"...but soooo not happy.

I cannot imagine your w believing you could ever get past this to work on you.

Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?


This behavior and wording of yours MUST show and it must remind her of the past separations....in which you deflected from genuine introspection and growth b/c that might mean you were at least partly responsible and..."wrong"...

Lose the scorecard and wake up to the reality that in HER MIND/HEART---YOU broke your vows to her many times over.

In HER MIND/HEART
you pushed her into the arms of OM...


Do not miss the chance of a life time here, to become the best man YOU can become and to show your boys how to do that.

Enough about OM. Stay in your sandbox and work on YOU and ONLY YOU....

Take Accuracy's advice

(or any of the other great posters here who help YOU keep the focus on the one person you can control---YOU)
Accuracy said==

"Forgetting about W for a while, what are you doing for yourself? Have you figured out any GAL activities? I know you are spending quality time with your kids and that is giving you some enjoyment, but when they are not around, what are you doing with yourself? As I mentioned previously, I bought an inexpensive road bike on Craigslist and racked up tons of miles, and picked up an inexpensive electric guitar and taught myself to play. Both of those were things I felt really good about that I could do on my schedule and didn't require me to commute or spend money on an ongoing basis. They were both also very inexpensive one-time investments, and if I sell them I'll probably get back what I paid.

What are you doing for you?"

I want to hear the same...what are your GAL and 180s? No more resistance to it.

Meet new people, make real friends, and keep them by being the new you.

That's attractive, btw AND it will be a noticable change in YOU that your w will hear of..do Not point it out or highlight it or it'll look like a tactic as opposed to real changes in you.

IMO-- you probably can turn this around, but only by focussing on you and the flaws you have. AND ONLY YOU...now is not the time to discuss what YOU NEED or want from her b/c she wants out....she is not here posting...


it's not about OM...

it's about YOU and becoming a man only a fool would leave.





Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 03/17/12 02:05 AM
here's a post that the DB moderator's posted in "the classics" that many LBSers have benefitted from reading...

see if and how any fits your sitch...


FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that...

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.

Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.


So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.

You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.


Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win. (Or you make it all about OM and nothing to do with how you treated her).

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
_________________________
Me: 32, H: 32
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 03/19/12 06:09 PM
LH

just b/c there are 2 x 4s in my posts to you, please don't lose sight of what I also said, which is that

you probably CAN turn this around.


The 2 x 4s are meant for you to change your course with a big 180 in attitude.

I see that as the only way to get a reconciliation possible.

good luck
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/02/12 03:15 PM
I've taken the last couple of weeks to reflect on things that have been said and advice that has been give from friends, family, and from those on this forum. I've had to take a long hard look at things that I've been doing that probably have been detrimental in getting the one's I love back into my life.

25years, you're right, I have been pursuing and doing everything that doesn't work time and time again. Do I want to be doing these things, no, of course not, yet I keep doing them.

I know that today I am a better person and a better father to my kids than I was 8 months ago and I would also like to believe that I would be a better husband to my W than I was 8 months ago. But I continue to have my failings...I continue my need to be right...that everything needs to be explained and that I must have the truth. I do see the flaws in these. Yes I would rather be happy than right. I would rather be happy than having to know everything. Yet I still find myself falling into this rut time and time again, not knowing how to stay out of the rut permanently.

My heart screams in pain for my lost marriage, wife, and lost time with my children. I try to find things to do that keep my mind off of my problems like hanging out with friends, going to comedy clubs, and simply trying to spend time out of the house. But at the end of the day, everything comes back...a flood of emotion hits me like a freight train and I stand there frozen, not being able to move out of the way.

I know I need to let my W live her life...give herself a chance to hopefully see the man I am becoming. I know I need to stop trying to control the situation and stop doing things that I know don't work. I need to give my W time to see what she wants, to give herself a chance to miss me, to desire me, to want me, and hopefully to love me again.

Everything sounds so easy, but it isn't...it is the hardest thing I've ever had to do. I find myself rushing things, trying to find a shortcut, but it's not there. I find myself in so much pain that I'm literally frozen and all I can do is cry and profess my love for my wife, children, my marriage, and everything else that I've lost to an empty room with only the ghosts and memories of out past together. I feel like I'm at a funeral that is lasting forever...where the pain never fades, the lose never subsides, and the misery continues on forever. I am stuck.
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/03/12 02:52 PM
Everything is happening so fast. I still can't believe it's been almost 8 months since I've been able to hold my W. Why is time moving so fast? D is in full effect, GAL for kids just starting and money is running out fast...hell, it's been gone for some time, but the debt is piling up.

My W keeps telling me that I need to move on...that what I feel for her will never be returned, that I have to forget about her. I just don't know how to let go of something that is as important to me as she it. For me, it's like cutting off my own arm...I just can't do it.

I'm a wreck. I'm depressed. I feel worthless. I do not know how to get out of this. I try to get out and have fun. I try to lift my spirits by see more of my friends, but it doesn't last and I just can't get my mind off of my W.
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/03/12 03:39 PM
Luvhurts,

I'm so sorry you're in so much pain, but I applaud the progress you've made in understanding your own behavior and what it's done and continues to do to you. That feeling of being helpless in the face of your circumstances is terrible, particularly combined with the knowledge that it doesn't have to be this way.

I believe you have it figured out so there's not much I can say. In terms of being stuck and dealing with your emotions, have you found a good IC? Despite the fact that the money is gone, that might be worth taking on debt. Insurance will often cover a certain number of visits. You are in a bad place, enlist a professional to help make things better!

I feel for you my friend

Accuray
Posted By: 2chiquitos Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/03/12 04:04 PM
You're self esteem has been shot. Reminds me of a gruesome picture I saw of someone who shot themselves in the head with a shot gun. Nothing's left! So you need to pick up the pieces and put yourself back together.

This will be one of the biggest challenges of your life. It has taken me a long time to get to the point where I am at, seeing my future without H. However, this has allowed me to start picking up the pieces and start taking care of myself and stop taking care of the nonexistent R.

I continue to love H and show him I love him. Not with words but with actions. Before I was able to use my actions I had to completely back off. Kinda looked like I was giving him the silent treatment but I gave simple responses if he asked me questions.

Now he tries to pull me into conversations that have to do with work, his family, his life. I still believe he's involved with OW but I can't get caught up with that. It doesn't help me achieve serenity. And that's what I'm all about now. I want my life to be as peaceful as possible. NO MORE SOAP OPERA!!

Take care of yourself luvhurts49. Learn to parent yourself. GAL with your kids is great! They need you to remind them how much you (and W) love them. They tend to blame themselves frown

I tell my 3yo I love him throughout the day and say things to build his self esteem cuz although they're little this also hurts their self esteem frown
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/20/12 06:12 PM
Okay, so it's been a few weeks since I've been on here and things haven't gotten any better. Our kids now have their own attorney and a ruling should be made sometime next month regarding custody. I don't like my chances here, but I still feel that it is in the best interests of our kids that they be with me, in their home, in their beds, and where they are comfortable.

Nothing much has changed with my W. She is still with OM, although she still denies it. My and my W rarely talk other than to say thank you or drive safely.

We did have a short conversation 2 weeks ago. She had some movies she rented that she wanted to drop off to me so the kids could see them. So she dropped them off without ever getting out of her car. About a minute later I called her, apologizing for not inviting her in to see the boys for a minute (brain fart on my part). She said that it was alright. About a minute later, she called me and said, it's not that she doesn't want to see our kids, it's that she never expected to be invited in to the house. She stated things like it never felt like her house and she wishes that we never bought the house. Then she started complaining about things about our R and our M. During this conversation, I'm telling her that of course this was and is her house and her home, that she is always welcome her, that a regret of mine was not allowing her to do more within the house to make it feel more like "hers". We continued to talk along those lines for 10 or 15 minutes before hanging up.

Why does she continue to torture me by talking about things that we have done, things that we both put our hearts into? Why does she keep talking and complaining about things regarding our R and our M? Does she really care? Does she only do this to torture me? Does she do this to justify her decisions? Or does she keep bringing these things up because she is still confused, feeling guilty, or a part of her just doesn't want to let go?

I'll be honest, I know it's been 8 months since she left, but my heart still yearns for my W and our M. I still can't stop thinking about her every day and I dream about her every night. I see the look on my kids faces and it kills me to see the pain that they are going through too. I just don't know what to do anymore. I really don't.

I would be grateful for any help or words of encouragement.
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/20/12 06:41 PM
For sure she's still conflicted and is trying to reinforce her decision. She's throwing out things that, if true, help her to convince herself that leaving was right. I do think she's baiting you to create bad feelings. To the degree you're sticking to your 180's and being pleasant, listening, and validating, you're not taking her bait, and that is making HER feel tortured, because maybe things weren't as bad as she convinced herself they were, and maybe she did make the wrong decision.

If she's indeed still with OM, I'm sure the shine is coming off that relationship too. When that relationship starts to fall apart, or even fails to live up to her expectations, then she'll really start to question if its everyone else or if it's her.

There is nothing you can do other than what you're doing. Continue to cope as best you can, be pleasant, protect your kids, 180, and keep demonstrating positive change through action.

I'm very sorry to hear about your continued pain, that is just awful.

Accuray
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/20/12 06:52 PM
Thank you Accuray, but I don't think the shine is coming off the R with the OM, but I wish it was. She now watches football and basketball games on TV (things she never did with me although I tried to get her interested). She roots for the teams that the OM likes.

I really wish that she would start to question herself because she is distancing herself from me even more nowadays. She can't even look at me and even saying things like Happy Easter, she turns her head away.

I just see her as doing all these things that she wouldn't do with me. I see her going out of her way to be a part of his life and not mine.

I been to so many doctors, therapists, and counselors that my head could just explode, but in the end, none of it helps and I still love my W, I miss my W, I miss our family being together, and the thought of living the rest of my life without her is excruciating.
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/23/12 04:51 PM
You know, it really upsets me that she has and is doing things for this OM that I couldn't get her to do for the last 20 years. And on top of all that, it's almost like she deliberately flaunts it in my face just to get me going.

I love my W, I love my kids, and I love my family, but anything I do or don't do, doesn't make things any better. I dream about my W every night and wake up in the morning realizing that it's just another dream. I know we have no control over our dreams, but come on...it's been like this for 8 months. It becomes hard to take after a while.

So this last weekend was my W's birthday and her sister was in town (from Florida) and they both came to drop off the kids (it was my weekend). I didn't do anything dramatic or buy some big or expensive gift or anything. I simply had each of our kids give her a card and I also gave her a card and some flowers. I didn't hug her or kiss or anything like that, but it really tells you something when you get a better reaction from my SIL than my W. My SIL gave me a hug and said all the nice things you're supposed to say while my W didn't even look at me and didn't even bother to say thank you.

Now I know better that to expect anything extraordinarily positive from my W, but even a simple acknowledgement would have seemed appropriate.

I just don't know what to do anymore. I'm going down in flames and just trying to keep my sanity. I'm gonna continue to do what I need to for my kids, but she is literally tearing me apart.
Posted By: AprilT Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/23/12 05:08 PM
LuvHurts-
As someone who has dealt with my STBXH's MANY affairs over 9 plus years, you reach a place where you have to put your needs FIRST. You cannot be a doormat or a safety net for whenever they wake up out of the fog. Do you like living in pain everyday, not eating, not sleeping??? I didn't. I wanted more...I deserved more. All of us on here deserve more.

Moving forward does not mean you are forgetting her...It means you are remembering YOU. If she wakes up, great, she will have a fantastic you to look forward to. If she doesn't great...someone who appreciates you will get a fantastic you. I wanted more than to be the one he came running back to when the others gave him the boot. I want to be the ONLY one for someone, not the leftovers.

Please stay strong, and know that only you will know when its time to move on...in whatever capacity you choose. Your children need you to be strong. YOU need you to be strong. Hoping you find some peace....
Posted By: sayitaintso Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/23/12 06:53 PM
Well said April^^^^.

You have to let her go Luv. It has been the hardest thing I've ever had to do and I'm not completely their yet as its a work in progress. It has come and progressed in phases but I realize that I have zero (o) control over my w and it must be her choice to come back to me or to re-engage.

The constant focus on her and the judgement you have regarding her actions compared to your expectations will not only drive you crazy but will also keep you stuck in a negative paradigm and hinder your growth.

Let her go and live your life.
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/23/12 06:58 PM
I just wish I knew how to let her go. I really do want to be happy and I know I have to eventually get there in order to be the best dad I can be for my kids, but I just don't know how to let go of something that means so much to me.
Posted By: AprilT Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/23/12 07:08 PM
You just do....it's a choice.

We are all here for you....every moment, every day. Take it a minute at a time. Then an hour, then a day. Soon you won't have to remind yourself to breathe, or eat, or rest.
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/23/12 07:28 PM
Meeting new people who enjoy you, and who you enjoy is step number one. There's a big hole for you right now that W used to fill. You need to start filling that gap in other ways and stop hoping that W will jump back in.

How do you do that? Meetup.com is a great resource, there are groups for virtually everything, and if there isn't one you're looking for, you can create a new one. It's great because it's non-threatening and non-committal.

Since the bomb, I have joined meetups for motorcycle riding, bicycle riding, and playing pinball. Gets me out doing things I enjoy, and meeting new people. Unlike joining a sports team or taking a class, if you can't show up any given time it doesn't really matter.

There are also meetups for single 30-somethings where you can just go out and go hiking with a mixed group, play pool, whatever, without the pressure of dating.

I think anything like that where you can join a group of people who are there explicitly to make new friends is going to benefit you. It's hard stepping into a new group where friendships are already established and you're the new person. Meetup is about breaking that down.

Accuray
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/24/12 06:42 PM
For me, meeting new people isn't the easiest thing to do. Between my work schedule, time with the kids, getting things done that need to get done around the house, dealing with attorneys ($$$), bills ($$$), and everything else, there doesn't leave much of anything left for me.

I have the friends I have (not many), but can't really do much because this D is sucking every last penny out of me. And I mean trying to come up with money to rent a Redbox movie broke. Venting doesn't seem to help, I just end up thinking more about my W and going to an IC (again, $$$) doesn't seem to help me much either.

I talk to what friends and family I have left, but it's just the same of stuff over and over again and I'm sure they're getting sick of me always talking about my problems and cryin on their shoulders. I am just completely lost and I don't have any idea on how to get back. When my W left, she took all my strength with her and I just can't seem to find anymore.
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/24/12 07:30 PM
Try meetup. You're putting forward a lot of excuses, but those are just excuses and I'm sure you know that. If you decide to do it you'll make it happen.

Time with the kids -- you only have the kids half the time right?
Work schedule -- not much you can do about that, but I'm sure you have time when you're not working.
Housework -- set aside one to two nights a week and don't deal with it outside of those hours
Dealing with bills -- one night a week.

Worst case you should have 2 nights every other week, plus every other weekend to get out and do something. Pick meetups that center around things that don't cost any money, like hiking. Depending on where you live, check Craigslist and see if people are looking for crew for sailboat racing -- also free.

No one is going to turn this around but you. You have to dig for the strength and find it. Consider changing your living situation if your expenses are killing you, find a less expensive place to live. You'll be happier in the long term if you're not stretched so thin.

Try to find some counseling -- if you don't have money for it, find a church and talk to the priest or minister. If that doesn't appeal to you, consider a UU church which is not going to be religious. It will feel good just to go every Sunday and start seeing the same people each week.

You sound like you're bottoming out. You have to have faith that it will get better. There's nothing anyone is going to say to make this better for you at this point, you just have to decide to make it better for yourself. That can start by setting small goals -- get out and do one thing where you can meet people next week. Just one thing. Give attending a church service serious consideration, doesn't have to be religious. My UU church is really more of a social club in my view -- the minister is an atheist and recently gave a sermon that denying evolution is like not believing in gravity. I was thinking "this is supposed to be a church, right?"

Also consider exercise. Exercise can do wonders for your state of mind and self-confidence and doesn't have to cost anything. Just go for a walk every night, that's a good way to start. Ride a cheap bike, do pushups and situps, whatever you can manage. It will chemically improve your mood and help you feel better.

You need to help yourself Luvhurts, your kids need you.

Accuray
Posted By: Grmpy_Mnky Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/24/12 07:52 PM
It gets better. You may not think so now, but at some point it gets better..
Posted By: RoRoinMD Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/24/12 07:53 PM
LH49, I have been where you are. I still occasionally have a day where I can't face the world. But mostly, I push myself to do something, really ANYTHING to get my mind off my sitch.

I second the meetup suggestion. It was one of the best things I could have done for myself. I also understand the money issue. You really do need to think about looking for a less expensive place to stay or any other changes you can make in other areas that will save you some money.

Church has also been my saving grace. Most churches off counseling for free or a small fee. Also check with your Human Resources department at work. Most companies have an Employee Assistance Program where you can get some counseling sessions for free.

We're all here to support you as much as we can. Accuray is right - your kids need you, so you need to help yourself first.
Posted By: Rick1963 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/24/12 08:10 PM
Selflessly Selfish
by Chayim Newman, M.A.


Willing to try an experiment? Grab a Post-it note and a pen… If you slept an average of 7+ hours per night this past week, put down a checkmark on your paper. If you ate three healthy meals per day this past week, put down another check. A third check if you exercised on five or more days. One more check if you felt like you managed your stress well and felt almost no muscle tension this past week. And a fifth check if you took some time each day for yourself to do something that you enjoyed, even for a few brief moments. Did you get all five checkmarks? I’d hazard a guess that almost no one checks off all five boxes, and certainly not on a regular basis. I’d suggest trying this experiment for a month and seeing how many checkmarks we amass.

The fact is, our self-care, composed of elements including: diet, exercise, stress management, sleep hygiene, and a number of other behaviors, is critical for optimal functioning. We are all aware of the research on declines in performance after sleep deprivation and in high stress situations, and there is significant literature to suggest that proper diet and consistent exercise also crucially impact performance – at work, at play and socially. Why then did few or none of us check off all five checkmarks this past week?

We all have irrational self-statements about our self-care and we use them to justify our reluctance to change our behaviors or to put in the effort required for healthy living.

- “It’s selfish of me to spend so much time on myself and my own needs”
- “I’ll be fine even if I don’t focus on my self care; plenty of people do so and live a long time”
- “Whatever I’m working on currently is more pressing than going to the gym or spending the extra time to prepare healthier meals”
- “If I tried to live that way, I’d fail after a couple of weeks anyway”

Some of those statements may sound familiar. I’ve said them to myself hundreds of times over the years. Unfortunately, these irrational statements are, well, irrational. They’re mostly inaccurate and certainly not functionally effective or conducive to health. In fact, one of the first signs of decompensation when one is suffering from clinical depression or severe anxiety is that these self-care regimens get compromised and, for all intents and purposes, thrown out the window. Therefore, one of the first things I always do as a clinician is to help clients re-establish their self-care regimen, giving their daily life an anchoring structure with which to then begin the work of addressing what underlies their emotional struggles.

Even for the non-clinical population, I think we’d all benefit from a more long-term view. As trite as it may sound, life really is a marathon rather than a 50-yard dash. And if we aspire to complete the marathon with our health and faculties intact instead of collapsing at the midway point, it will serve us well to commit now to our self-care (starting with the above five elements) as a real priority. While doing so, we can also recognize that it’s not a selfish commitment, but a truly selfless one, as only the functioning and balanced individual can effectively give of themselves to properly and patiently nurture others. Like they always say in the pre-flight announcement, we have to put on our own oxygen masks first, so that we may go out and properly help do so for others. Take good care of yourself. You’re worth it.
Posted By: BFloat Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/24/12 08:18 PM
Luvhurts... I have not read your entire sitch but heard a cry for help.

I'm really sad you're hurting and can't seem to find your way out. But I will put it out there.. And you've heard it a million times before.. We have been there.. And it does get better.. If you so choose.

I am 37.. 2 small kids (5 and 2).. I juggle with caring for them and work as well. I work nights to accomodate child care. My H has the kids every second weekend.

It has been an upward battle.. I felt I didn't have many friends but through this process, I learned I have more friends than I thought. It just became clearer when I reinvested time in them. After a while.. People do get tired of the moping so I had to choose not to. So for GAL.. I had to force myself to just go. I am not financially flushed.. The kids and I pop popcorn and have "picnics" and a movie.. And coffee and people watching with a gf has become a favourite pastime.

I hope you choose to find you. It's an amazing gift. But it take courage.. And an open heart. Do you have it in you? I hope so. ((((( )))))
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/24/12 09:20 PM
Originally Posted By: luvhurts49
I just wish I knew how to let her go. I really do want to be happy and I know I have to eventually get there in order to be the best dad I can be for my kids, but I just don't know how to let go of something that means so much to me.


Underdog posted this on another thread earlier today. I think it is worth repeating. I've modified it slightly to fit your particular sitch.

Originally Posted By: Underdog
"So, the moderators here used to tell us that what we focus on expands. That was undoubtedly the best observation I ever received here. As long as you focus on the problem, it just gets bigger billing in your life. If you focus on you and YOUR life, that will also take center stage.

Drop the rope, let himher wallow around in hisher own pond, and you work on making your pond the most attractive, fun place ever. No matter what heshe decides to do, you will gain from replacing hisher name on the marquee with your own. Don't you totally deserve that?"


Things will get better for you with the passage of time. Take a deep breath and then another.
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/25/12 02:32 PM
Let's just throw another log onto the fire while we're at it. So I had set up an appoint to see my S12 IC and who shows up, my W and kids. Apparently, there was some confusion as to who set up the appointment, but nonetheless, I set up a new appointment but got to talk with him for a couple minutes anyway.

So I go to leave and my S3 says he wants to go "home" with daddy (keep in mind that he only calls my house "home", whereas my W lives at grandpa's). I try to explain that he has to stay with his mommy and I would see him in a few days. But he is relentless and keeps saying that he wants to go "home" with daddy.

At this point I am visibly shaken and beginning to tear up because in my mind, this shouldn't be happening. Our kids shouldn't every have to make that kind of choice whether to go with mom or dad and that it just be the same place...it should just be "home". I feel so heartbroken that this is happening and it hurts to hear my S3 making this choice to be with me instead of his mom on her day to be with him.

Anyway, finally my W just looks at me with the most unemotionally look I have ever seen...no frown, no scowl, no sign of teary eyes, nothing. She looks at me and says, if you wanna take him with you, go ahead because he's just going to bed when we get home. My heart literally jumped out of my chest and a piano fell on it. I could not believe that my W, this wonderful person who is the most caring and loving person I've ever met, could be so cold and unemotional. It's one thing to be that way towards me, but our kids? I was in utter shock. I almost lost it. I had tears coming down my face as I went to leave with my S3 and she had the nerve to ask me if I was alright. I simply could not believe it. I don't think I have ever been so disappointed in my life.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/25/12 04:27 PM
Yes your W is behaving in a cold and is seemingly uncaring. But for you to rise above this mess, you need to detach your emotions from this sitch and be strong for your children. If she offers you the chance to spend more time with the kids, take it gladly and be on your way. Don't linger because you know that your emotions will catch up with you.

Your best opportunity to get your W back (and there is no guarantee at all) is to always be upbeat around your W and build a life for yourself. When the emotions start to get the best of you, you need to be on your way, pronto!

I know this is extremely difficult for you, LH. But you are not alone, we are all going through the same thing, though some are further along than others. Life will eventually get better. You just need to ride this thing out. Re-read some of the excellent advice you have been given and try to get your head together.

Hang in there!
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/25/12 05:44 PM
Thank you all for your support and suggestions. I really do appreciate them. Obviously, some things are harder to do than others, but I try to do what I can as far as GAL and trying not to think about my situation as much.

Friends help and having time to have my kids play with my friends kids is nice and the kids have a blast. It also allows me to take my mind off things for a bit. It's at night and during down time is when I seem to have the most problem. Whether it's a song, TV show, or simply a smell, something always seems to trigger a memory and gets me thinking about things and from there things go down hill.

I thought I had been through just about everything the last 8 months. From the highest of highs to the lowest of lows. I've ridden the roller coaster many, many times. I've learned things that I wish I never learned and of course I've done things that I'm not proud of. But nothing and I mean nothing prepared me for the events that transpired at my S12 IC office (see my last post).

My W comes from a family where saying ILY and hugging and kissing are commonplace. My family, not so much. Because of this, we have modeled our own family after her family in many ways. That's why it comes to such a shock to not see any emotion from her, nothing but a blank slate when her own child is begging to be with his dad as opposed to being with his mom.

It's not like I only see my kids every once in a while, I see them all the time. We each have the kids 50% of the time. Sometimes I get them a little more depending on scheduling issues, but it's never less than 50% of the time.

I am one who rarely is at a loss for words, but the actions or rather in-actions of my W just floored me. This is a woman that I am passionately in love with, who has the largest, most caring heart I've ever known, and to have that kind of unemotional reaction...I'm left to wonder just what happened to my W? What happened to the loving and caring mother of our children? I am simply without words.
Posted By: 2thepoint Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/25/12 06:38 PM
Originally Posted By: luvhurts49
I am one who rarely is at a loss for words, but the actions or rather in-actions of my W just floored me. This is a woman that I am passionately in love with, who has the largest, most caring heart I've ever known, and to have that kind of unemotional reaction...I'm left to wonder just what happened to my W? What happened to the loving and caring mother of our children? I am simply without words.


She is in an impenetrable FOG. Nothing you can do or say will change that. At least not right now. So quit trying so hard.

I went to see my IC yesterday and told him about my exhaustion over dealing with my own sitch which has been going on since last September. He reminded me that I have been putting so much energy into this thing that my mental and physical reserves are running low and this explains my exhaustion. And when you think about it, who wouldn't be?

He suggested I do visualization exercises that help me put my mind in a better place. Here are some ideas he suggested:

- List those things that make me happy
- What do I like to do
- Visualization exercise of me when i am most happy
- What type of relationship do I want to have

Although I paid for this advice, I am sharing it with you at no cost. Just see if you can't get your mind to a better place.
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/25/12 09:40 PM
I read a book talking about how damaging your expectations can be. You can improve your situation by learning to drop your expectations of your wife. Instead, expect that she will never do anything differently than she does now. Assume she is not a caring mother and you will not be disappointed, instead you stand to be pleasantly surprised if she steps up.

Assume that the treatment you get now is the best you will ever get and make that your baseline expectation and you will be happier.

I, like you, felt that my wife was a wonderful caring parent. "The Captain" on the SSM forum suggested to me that a wonderful caring mother would not cheat on her husband and break up her family. That, by definition, makes her less than a wonderful or caring mother. The person you thought you knew so well is gone. Accept that and you're on the road to peace.

Accuray
Posted By: BFloat Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/25/12 10:53 PM
I thought my H was the most caring as well. My bff always compared the men she was dating to my H. But guess what? He's human and flawed just like so many of us. frown

I don't want to downplay your pain because it is very real. But you are the only one that can help yourself.

Honestly.. I was a mess. A complete mess. And there were moment when I didn't think I could continue on. But this board became a lifesaver. When I felt I didn't have anyone to talk to.. I came here.. I received love.. Support.. And sometimes a much needed kick in the pants.

The expectations are huge!!! Agree with accuray.. When you lower your expectations.. You lower the chances of being disappointed. It is so very hard to do.. But if you can find your way there, an amazing life awaits you
Posted By: luvhurts49 Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/30/12 07:54 PM
It's very hard for me to accept that my W is this new person. Not because she is so different, but rather because she is so uncaring and unforgiving. I understand that everyone wants to be young again and live life to the fullest, but we can't stay in our 20's forever...at some point we need to sit down and realize that life is pretty good in your 30's and beyond.

I keep hoping that this "new" person my W has become is only temporary, but I don't know. What I do know that I, my family and friends, and our kids have noticed that she is different, but no one from her family sees it. Kind of amazing once you sit down and actually think about it.
Posted By: Accuray Re: What do I do next? Part 3 - 04/30/12 11:06 PM
It's possible that your memories of W aren't quite reflective of what your reality was. It's a natural thing to see your W through rose colored glasses in the situation you're in. The statement you make in the last sentence is the kind of perspective that will help. Step outside of your situation, look at it as a third party observer, and evaluate how "good" each of you have been. I would suggest that neither of you probably have lived up to your current vision of how great your wife was. People have flaws and hurt each other and that's just part of the deal as I'm sure you know. Oldtimer points out that the difference between a WAS and an LBS is just a matter of who took action first.

Your assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to change your perspective and see your W's changes as permanent, and act on that basis. That way, you will not be disappointed, and will not spend time agonizing over when she might return to her old self. Who you see now is who she is until she proves that she's someone else -- and that may never happen.

I'm not at all suggesting that it will be easy, but if you want to set a goal to end your suffering, that's one way to go about it. The other path, of course, is to focus on you and your changes, and to take pride in that. If you can do both of those things together, you will come out the other side in the best possible place -- you'll know W would be extremely lucky to have you back, and that's the attitude you want to have.

You've said that you're unhappy with the amount of money you make, and with the ratio of your expenses to your income. What are you going to do about that? Working on a plan for that might really help you feel better.

Accuray
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