Time to start a second thread. Here's my first:
Hoping Friends Can Return To LoversNow I think that original title was too specific and too ambitious. If I've learned anything since I've been here, it's that the work I'm doing will bring good results, but I don't know whether the results will include still being married to my H. Also that I should be focusing on the shorter term, what can I do know that will accomplish a specific goal, and celebrate that success. So, now I'm just "Hoping"...
I just got back from this week's MC and I think it went great. H had lunch plans but he made it to the appointment. T always asks us what we want to talk about, and H didn't have any suggestions, so I suggested parenting issues and how we're doing with what we've learned so far.
I learned a few months ago that H did not like the way I handled chores and allowance. Instead of shutting the conversation down like before, I've tried having an extended conversation where we revisit it now and then to see if we're getting closer to agreement. I ditched my old allowance chart system, discussed with the boys that they'd be paid only once a month, which they liked, and that they are just expected to do their chores without a chart, which they agreed to. I think it's been going pretty well but there were two things to talk about:
(1) H put two trash bags on top of S13 who had overslept. This was to indicate trash needed to go outside, S13's chore. S13 overslept bc he was up very late doing homework, and he barely made it out to the bus on time. So when I saw the trash I took it out and texted him that I did it and now he needed to earn back his allowance. I said if he went to Boy Scouts that evening that would satisfy me. So he did. I thought that was a success because I tied allowance to chores, and when I gave him an alternate to make it back up he did what I wanted, win win. Plus I showed effort in doing what H wanted, and the trash got taken away. Skip to next item.
2) H interrupted me while I was asking S13 to do his chore of putting away clean dishes. I usually tell them "if you do it right now I'll help and if you do it later I won't." I like to do that because it gives them an incentive to start immediately, and because it's nicer to do chores together and we get a chance to talk while we do it. I made the mistake of saying "if you want to do..." and H interrupted from upstairs to say "No WANT. You'll Do it NOW. I WANT you to do it now! W, don't GIVE him a choice." etcetera. So S13 did it then while I helped. If H hadn't said anything, there would have been the same outcome. But I thought maybe we need to discuss that more because he clearly didn't agree with how I was handling the dishes chore.
It was a great session. I got blasted for being indulgent and for bribing the kids instead of getting them to accept responsibility. H got blasted for his insistence that everyone should do what he wants simply because he wants them to, and exactly when he says. T noted that that tends to bring out oppositional behavior, and I could agree that it had had that effect on me too over the years. We agreed on some things in principle, that we want the kids to grow up responsible and doing what they're supposed to. We will compromise on when things need to be done: we decided we'd establish deadlines and let the kids choose when they would do their jobs within the deadlines. We both agreed that things needed to be done simply because we're all in a family and we all need to contribute, which to me is a lot more reasonable than "because I say so". We agreed that I won't bail S13 out by doing his chores anymore. I won't help with the dishes either but I can still sit and talk with him. There was more but the overall point was that we are capable of working out agreements with the kids that make us both feel like we're on the same page.
We also talked more about the allowance system and we'll be changing it again. We got a chance to witness and discuss how H comes out of the gate belligerent. He was saying how he'd like to present the new system where some things the kids get because they do things around the house, and his voice got loud and sarcastic as he said "I don't exactly WANT to drive you to the mall and buy you stuff and if you don't WANT to do the cleaning I'm not going to WANT to do what you want me to do..." His point is valid but he makes me feel oppositional when I hear it, like he's just assuming they're going to fight us on this before he's even explained it. T told him to try to start out nicer and save that tone for when it's needed. So it will have more effect.
I believe this helped because parenting is one of the hopeless issues I feel he's writing us off over. Maybe doing more sessions like this will help us get to where we can solve these problems on our own. It also helped because we didn't talk at all about divorce or separation or how he's feeling or how hurt I am. It was just practical and positive. Even the things we were criticized for were positives because we were learning better how we come across and can take control over that.
The other good thing was that by not focusing on our relationship there was no threat for him, no need to resist participating fully - we'll want to be coparents whether we end up together or apart. In my view, if we can see change in that arena it might open the possibility to him that we can create change in other areas too.
That's it about our T appt but I also want to journal about my GAL / 180 activities. I went with S11 to visit our out of town friends over the long weekend last weekend. I had a great time, but missed being home by Monday. I joined a meetup group and went on a hike with them Tuesday. Brought a friend, but most of the others were there on their own. Got good exercise, saw a new place, and enjoyed the company. Will try it again. Did all the dishes and cleanup before leaving for the weekend (and again when I got home). Not doing so well getting to the gym, but will try to get back into it and back on track. I keep forgetting that if I get back in the dating scene I'll feel better if I get in better shape. When I remember that, I feel down. But then, when I do work out I feel good so I'll just go for that. Just gotta keep trying.
Hi Adinva,
My son has not been doing his homework in school and my W and I disagreed about how to handle it. She wanted to offer him a reward if he gets his homework done, whereas I wanted to deprive him of things for NOT getting his homework done -- kind of resonated with your interaction with your H about chores.
My view is that there are certain things the kids should be expected to do as a baseline, as a member of the family -- I don't think you get rewarded for those. Then, there are things you can do to go above and beyond, and for that you get a reward.
I say this because these were my "core beliefs" coming into the marriage. These weren't things that W and I discussed up front, they were unspoken assumptions that I had based on how I was raised. It didn't occur to me to discuss them because (a) I felt that was the "right" way to think and (b) I held them so deeply I didn't want to have them challenged.
The IC I go to is also a child psychiatrist, so I talked it over with her. She told me that my W was actually right, that inventives are more effective than punishment. So much for my core beliefs -- I need to rethink them! I need to discuss that philosophy with my W, and see where we can reach agreement, maybe we're not that far off.
Reading over your post there were two things that struck me:
1) You and H are working on differences in your parenting in front of the kids which I'm sure you appreciate is not ideal. Have you discussed that? (i.e. H says one thing and you say another, or you say one thing and then H demands something different -- not good for the kids to witness)
2) By taking out the garbage for S13, you were undermining H, who put garbage bags on him to make a point -- that it was not OK to forget to take out the garbage. You then came in and said it WAS OK, you'll clean up the mess, so H's opinion there didn't really matter. That's what S13 is going to walk away with -- Dad got mad, but Mom made it all better for me.
I can totally appreciate your perspective, it makes perfect logical sense, but as the father, that would trigger me emotionally.
First of all, if H put full bags of garbage on S13, that's probably not an acceptable thing to do. I couldn't tell if they were empty garbage bags or full ones. That's probably something to talk about.
Secondly, if you disagreed with H's approach because S13 was up late doing homework, from my perspective it would have been better to call H and discuss it with him, tell him you planned to take out the garbage yourself and let S13 make it up in another way, and let him weigh in on it. Maybe let H call S13, tell him that he needed to remember to take out the garbage, but that this time Mom was going to do it for him -- let H deliver the message since he started the dialog.
Historically, you were the LD partner, that meant that you controlled the relationship in many ways. You controlled the frequency of ML, when affection was acceptable, etc. That can leave H feeling powerless / inadequate / un-manly and resentful.
When H tries to make rules for the kids, or set expectations, and you undermine them, once again you're taking away his control, making him feel less manly, hurting his self-esteem.
I'm definitely not saying "love, honor and obey", nor am I saying that H should make the rules in the house. What I am saying is that when H makes a mandate for the kids that you disagree with, be very careful about undermining it. If you don't agree, work it out with H privately, and have H be the one to go back to the kids with a different position. This allows him to save face and still be able to state his will.
I don't always agree with W, but when she says something to the kids that I don't agree with, I just back her up. My position is "do what your mom says". In private, I will talk to W about my position, and agree on what we're going to do going forward, but in the moment, the call is always "back her up".
If you just fundamentally disagree with how H parents, feel he's too strict, unreasonable, etc., one thing to consider would be to go to a family practice counselor. Men defer to authority. Right now it's you versus him, and some things he's just not going to yield on, even if he *knows* he's being unreasonable because he's trying to hang onto his identity, or may have non-negotiable core beliefs.
If you tell him that you feel you need to do a better job parenting together, that you know that some of the ways you're looking at things may not be the right way, and that you'd like to speak to an expert together, you may get him there. In that context, H will be more likely to be reasonable IMO, and you may make some progress.
No one wants to go to yet more therapy, but in my experience, poking at the core beliefs is dangerous business, and best done with a neutral 3rd party who H respects as an expert.
Just my $0.02 from the other side of the fence!
Accuray
Accuray, I came in to post about something else and found your post - thank you! Good stuff.
You're absolutely right and it's cost me $$$ in therapy to find these things out. First that core beliefs we had can be incorrect - or at least require some compromise so we can reconcile them. My H had been so incommunicative I didn't even know or notice that I was undermining him, making him resentful, etc. Same with the LD - he never indicated in any way that it bothered him, even if I discussed ways we could get more on the same page he had nothing to contribute so I figured we were OK, he was probably just as "tired" or "busy" as I was. I've learned that my assumptions were wrong, and that my husband is not what he on the surface appears to be, and that I need to do the work to dig deeper and find out how he really feels about things. It's been painful and confusing, but I'm up to it, I want to learn this and do better.
I completely accept that it was wrong of me to take out the trash - you and my T and my silent H all agree on that and I agree too. I thought I was working within my H's system and I was actually not. But - what's new is that I knew to bring it up in T and get feedback since I don't get feedback within the situation from H. So at least I've made that much progress...and the feedback was loud and clear, and I learned from it. Hopefully my H at least noticed the change that I was questioning whether I understood him correctly and was open to hearing that I had not.
I think the parenting differences could be key for us. If we can figure out to communicate better about these issues and feel better about each other as a result, I think things could start to turn around for us. At the very least though, we'd be better parents.
So here's what I came in to post. I've become obsessed with looking at photos on FB of an exBF from college and thinking about contacting him now that we have one connection in common through FB, a mutual friend who found and friended me about a month ago.
I feel like I'm already in a Judd Apatow movie so why not one more stupid cliche added to the mix?
I'd like a 2x4 please.
It's not that I even really want to pursue him; I think I just want to recapture a time in my life when everything was ahead of me and life was rosy and someone was passionately head over heels for me. He said we were soul mates.
There's a reason I didn't stay with him, and I'd make the same decision again. But I keep fighting the impulse to write him to just say hi and how has life been for you these past 20 years.
Yeah, a 2x4.
10 days left before my 18th wedding anniversary.
H left this morning on business, out of the country until the day after our anniversary.
Feeling a little like a phony being the one here to receive the anniversary wishes from my parents and our friends. I'll have to practice a breezy thanks.
I've done the FB thing a couple times but kept it friendly. When I felt it might be getting too personal, I asked ex to share our correspondence with her H and that has always shut things down or taken it away from "the line". It's an extremely slippery slope if ex starts to escalate. It WILL make you feel good to flirt, and that can be addictive.
You've been putting in tremendous effort and it will be harder to do so if you give yourself an out. If ex responds positively to you and H does not, you see where that will lead in terms of your state of mind.
The other option is that ex does not escalate or show any inclination to flirt, and that also makes you feel poorly, that feeling you had in your past that you were expecting to recapture doesn't come, and then you just feel worse.
So how does ex work well on FB? When neither of you care that much, it's totally casual, it's maybe a smile or a laugh and you're done for the next year or so. How likely is that an outcome with your current state of mind?
You sound like a great woman to me, my advice would be to stay away from ex, continue to DB, and consider reaching out to him at the point where either everything is great with H, or you have decided to go your separate ways. I don't think you can ride the fence on DB, you're either in or your not.
Accuray
Ditto that. Don't do it. No matter how casual it may seem (or that you tell yourself it is), there will likely be a good emotional outlet there - one that has a history. As negative things occur you may start relying more and more on that good outlet and sharing less good things with your H. This is a slippery slope to an EA.
"I'd like a 2x4 please."
PUT THE GUN DOWN!!!
Why on earth would you want to go down this path? Do you or do you not want to save your M? If you are going to start searching for affirmation on FB, then I would suggest you stop your DB efforts, sign off the forum and go for it.
OTOH, if you really want to continue to work on you and maybe, just maybe get your M back on track then...
PUT THE GUN DOWN!!!
Thanks, I needed to hear that. I think self-discipline needs to be one of my 180s.
adinva, I agreee with the others. Don't go there. Keep the boundary where it is today. The more you inch the boundary outward, the higher the chances of reaching a point of no return you'll eventually regret.
When H casually told me he'd be out of the country for work, from a week before Thanksgiving until the week after it (missing both T-giving and our 18th anniversary), I decided my sons and I should do something wild and crazy and fun. I didn't want to sit here missing him for the first holiday he hasn't spent with me since 1993, the kids bored and bickering through their days off school.
So we went on our first cruise! I found very reasonable tickets on a 4-day cruise and really cheap flights to Miami, discussed it with H a few times to make sure it was OK with him, and away we went. Just got back last night.
It was really fun experiencing that with my boys. Sometimes they were bored, sometimes they bickered, but mostly there were so many new experiences and cool things to remember. Lots of laughs. We still feel like we're moving when we sit still. Watched the sunrise, sunset, stars. Played mini golf, watched comedy shows, wandered around islands we'd never been to before and marveled over water so bright it looked like it was lit from below. Delicious Thanksgiving dinner and no clean-up! Yesterday in Miami we rented a car and went up and down the coast checking out different beaches before our late flight. I wished lots of times that H were with us, and we had moments when we said we should remember to tell Daddy about this or that, but for five days I didn't think about our R at all. Also, I bought myself a beautiful ring for only $30 to remember my vacation. S11 chose a Nacho Libre mask; S13's too cool for souvenirs
.
Now I'm back to regular life, checking out the DB forums, thinking about rereading DR. Tomorrow's the anniversary - I plan to ignore it. The next day H gets home from overseas.
He has access to email but I didn't for the past few days. Last thing he wrote to me was he made it to his destination. I let him know report cards arrived - both boys made honor roll - and later emailed him a photo of them on the cruise ship, just before going into airplane mode. Last night going through my hundreds of new emails there was just one from him, his itunes bill and "Are these ur purchases?" I feel like he goes out of his way to show complete lack of interest in me and the kids, especially during the travels for work. So that I don't drive myself crazy trying to understand what he's thinking, I'm going to do two things. (1) mental note - email him in the future when I purchase iTunes to let him know. (2) understand he's likely busy, stressed out, or some other frame of mind that makes him not reach out to us during his absence - and let it go. It's outside my control.
I think the best I can do is provide a pleasant, clean house to come home to and evidence that we've thought about him. I'll make sure we get our chores done tomorrow, put up very minimal Christmas decorations, and write Welcome Home in his new language on the pumpkin pie he likes. Then play it low-key.
Welcome back Adinva, sounds like it was a great escape! I'm so glad it went well and the kids had a good time.
I feel like he goes out of his way to show complete lack of interest in me and the kids, especially during the travels for work.
I don't know if I would take that too personally. I know I've been there too -- when traveling for work I'm either feeling exhausted and hassled from travel, or I'm working, and days on the road tend to be long days, often with boring business dinners, etc. Historically I would not call or e-mail on these trips, but it definitely didn't mean I didn't love the kids or my W any less. One of the books I read said that men tend to compartmentalize in a way women have a hard time identifying with. I felt like when I was traveling, I was like "ok, I'm doing this now", then when I was home I would re-engage.
One of my 180's has been to make sure to give a quality check-in every day when I'm traveling for work. I know W appreciates it, but honestly it often feels like work to me, because it's one more task I have to do, and I really don't like talking on the phone. I'm a face-to-face guy.
Accuray
Oh I'd take it personally...my ex was always calling and seeing how I was doing..telling me how he missed me lying next to him etc. When he started his affair and traveling he didn't seem to bother with me at all...or the kids.
He is wrapped up in something else.
Luv
Thanks Luv and Accuray - your replies helped me put this in perspective. I'm with Luv that I resent that someone can go 10 days without hearing my voice, just a hi, love ya. But - Accuray's right. This is how my H has always been. I don't need to dig up more stuff to be resentful for. Even when he loved us passionately he wasn't a talk on the phone guy. I'll let that one go.
Journaling - H was supposed to get home today but texted at 4pm yesterday to let me know he was at LAX and would be home that night. We had dinner plans so I raced around trying to get the most important spots cleaned up and get the kids to empty and put away their luggage. Managed to get the house looking pretty neat. All H could comment on was an O-ring on the table that we think belongs to an airsoft gun. My new laid-back, understanding, and medicated (A/D) me did not freak out about this. In the past it would have been a guaranteed tearful meltdown about how unfair that he didn't notice all I'd done and just focused on the negative. Now, DBing, I choose my battles. I'm more understanding that he's a bit OCD and I do my best to make him comfortable. I like peace in the house so I didn't start an argument or really even feel bad - I feel pretty good about the efforts we made. We all had a nice time telling him about the cruise and showing him photos. He brought back the two things S11 and I asked him to - candy and small coins from the country he went to. That was thoughtful and appreciated.
I think the combination of A/D, working at understanding H better, and DBing have really turned around the atmosphere in our home. I also tried something that was suggested by someone on this forum, butterfly touch - although hugs and kisses seem impossible, I planned to touch him lightly on the arm when I picked him up at the airport. This didn't yield a positive or negative response that I could see.
I see no progress in our R, either toward D or away from it. We still sleep without touching. H did ask questions about what we did on our cruise, and that was an improvement for him. I asked him if he'd been able to use his new language and complimented him on how quickly he'd learned it, and he didn't completely shut down (in the past he's been extremely reticent to discuss work, so he usually retreated into grunts and silence if I got close to it. It's the nature of his work, and I understand that, but he went really overboard with it at first.)
We've been in this limbo now for 5.5 months. I worry about getting complacent, making it too easy for him to be comfortable in this "nilwy" state. With H in the house it is hard to make DB progress. However I feel it's more important for my S11 and S13 to have an intact family for as long as possible. I am being patient and working on lasting changes - they just don't seem as dramatic as what others on the forums are able to do.
Managed to get the house looking pretty neat. All H could comment on was an O-ring on the table that we think belongs to an airsoft gun.
Been there too! Spent a ton of time cleaning the kitchen while W was out at a bar night with her friends, and when she gets back complains that the counters aren't wiped down. The only way I was able to resolve this was to drop the attitude that you are cleaning up "for" the other person. If you adopt the attitude that you're cleaning "because it needs to be done" and take H out of it, then you won't be looking for approval or gratitude when he gets home, and therefore no resentment when you don't get it. Once I started living that way it made things much easier. "Passionate Marriage" spends a lot of time talking about the importance of learning to "validate yourself" versus looking for validation from your spouse. (Easier said than done, but good to be aware of)
I planned to touch him lightly on the arm when I picked him up at the airport. This didn't yield a positive or negative response that I could see.
I used this strategy and you will not get a visible response, if the person doesn't recoil you're doing well! You're "training" H that being physical with you is not threatening and doesn't have to mean anything. Think of it like wading into the shallow end of the pool. That's what the butterfly touches do, before you know it you're up to your waist and it was an easier path than just jumping in the deep end.
We've been in this limbo now for 5.5 months. I worry about getting complacent, making it too easy for him to be comfortable in this "nilwy" state.
That's a long time to live like that. Good for you for putting forth that effort for your family.
Are you sure there is no OW? I have followed several situations on this board that went on for six months where the LBS was convinced there was no affair going on. Unfortunately in the long term situations there often is an EA or something. Do you think that could be the factor that's preventing any positive progress?
Accuray
What difference would an EA or PA make, really? I'd still be doing the exact same things I'm doing. I'd still believe that his issues and my issues got us to this point, and I'd still be working on my issues and getting better at handling his.
Since it wouldn't affect what I'm doing, and would affect my state of mind, I'm not looking for EAs or PAs. But -
we haven't ML since before his vasectomy in April
he's not friends with me on FB
I don't know or want to know his phone or email passcodes
If he's having an EA all I think he could tell her is how I'm really nice and look attractive and am listening a lot more to his opinions. Life is rough.
If he's having a PA well, maybe I'll be the beneficiary of his increased skill level someday. JK - I just see no point in hurting myself over something so completely beyond my control.
But Accuray, thanks again for making me feel good about what I'm doing for my kids and myself. I can hold my head up high and know I'm living a good life. No regrets.
Why did he get a Vasectomy at his age? just wondeering.
Well, we decided to hold off at two kids - although I would have liked a third he was definitely serious about no more kids. My birth control had side effects like heart damage so he said just go off it and I'll get a V. I thought that was so sweet, but told him I didn't think he should, it seemed so permanent, so final, I wanted to wait (it still was his choice though). About 5 years ago it seemed like it really was time, even I couldn't imagine starting over with a new baby. Trying to use condoms really hurt our sex life, we both hated them, and we started to ML less and less frequently, and with less success, if you know what I mean. I started asking if he was still thinking of getting a V I would be in favor, but still about 3 more years went by. I didn't pressure him but I wondered why he was dragging his feet so long. By this time ML was quite infrequent. All of a sudden, he scheduled it and I was hopeful that we could ML without the barriers and baggage of worrying about pregnancy. He was not very talkative about that but did say something like he didn't know, he just seemed to not feel like ML, but we'd see. (I thought he was depressed and said so, and asked if he might ask his doctor why his libido was so low. He got a full physical and said it revealed no health problems, no prostate issues, and no depression.) He went in for the surgery in April and after that I assumed he'd need time to recover so I waited. In mid-June, he dropped the bomb and said I'm not attracted to you and will never have sex with you again. I asked him why he had the V and he said he had just made it a New Year's resolution, it needed to be done, and he kept his resolution; also something about flexible spending dollars. If you know him that would make sense, he's like that. But also, what went unsaid, I suspect he figured he'd be a single guy soon and should get ready for that. So there's the story. I'm still waiting to ML for the first time in my life without the worry about getting pregnant in the back of my mind. Bummer, huh?
Yes, that is a bummer. You have a great outlook about EA/PA for sure! Very healthy. The only reason I asked about a possible affair is that the way you're living is exhausting, it weighs on you. When you see no progress despite your hard work, it can be demoralizing, and you can start to have thoughts about giving up, which I believe I read between the lines of your journal today @ 10:28. If you know about EA/PA, it can adjust your expectations and help you to understand WHY you're not seeing progress. You don't expect your efforts to yield the same results, so it's not disappointing when they don't.
I'm not encouraging you to go digging or to have the conversation with H -- that's 100% up to you. I'm just observing that there is a lot in his behavior that is indicative of an affair, and given how long you've been living in limbo, I might expect he has another emotional outlet available to him. Not wanting sex after a V sounds crazy to me, that's the whole point, isn't it? According to the books, men tend not to drop the bomb until they have something else lined up -- but that's of course a generalization.
I definitely don't want you to feel worse, I just hate to see you continually disappointed by H's lack of response.
Thank you again for your contributions to my thread, you were very helpful.
Accuray
Thanks Accuray, you've been a good friend to me - I feel like I know you!
There is the question: how long do you DB when it isn't bringing your marriage back? I only know I'm not there yet. I don't see a better way of handling this, and so I'll keep DBing.
At some point I will also worry about the message I'm sending my kids about what a healthy marriage should look like, but right now the choice is between our "friends" status and divorce, and I think this is better. They are seeing two people learning how to get below the surface of issues, learning how to communicate more effectively, and learning how healthy cheerful people deal with life's challenges (impending year apart due to work).
I secretly hope one day my H just "snaps out of it." I don't know if he ever will.
I just haven't gotten to the point where it feels right to give in and move on.
I have been praying for the snapping out of it cure as well! It is possible.
My observation from my own experience and reading situations on this board is that the "snapping out of it" cure tends to happen when:
1) OM/OW is gone permanently (ideally ended by OM/OW)
2) Sufficient time for grieving lost affair has passed
3) LBS has been effective at DB / improvements / detaching
4) Initial walkaway had less to do with a bad marriage and more to do with WAS pursuing an opportunity, then justifying it by rewriting history
WAS emerges from their "affair fog" and is suddenly confronted with the reality of being alone. They seem to simultaneously notice that the person they walked away from no longer exists and are intrigued by the person who has taken their place.
Finally, they need to feel they'll be accepted back into the marriage without being tarred with guilt and accusations by the LBS (i.e. paving the road home).
It can happen -- unfortunately the whole OM/OW thing is completely out of our control and that truly seems to be the biggest factor in my opinion. Will be interesting to see how NYCPeter's story unfolds, as his wife is in the affair grieving period now.
Accuray
Advina one of the possible side effects of a V is erectile dysfunction and low sex drive. It is believed to be psychological. did he complain about that afterwards? just a thought
Hey - I saw my name on another thread!
I'll be updating my sitch regularly.
Not sure W is grieving the affair (at least not outwardly) - I think she views it more as something that was bound to happen to one of us because our M was not working out.
Advina one of the possible side effects of a V is erectile dysfunction and low sex drive. It is believed to be psychological. did he complain about that afterwards? just a thought
Rick he did not complain about it. He just seems to think it's because he isn't attracted to me.
For the last 6-12 months he's been spending most afternoons and evenings in bed, saying he's tired. When he passed by and said anything it was usually a criticism. When we discussed anything it became an argument. I was really dumbfounded and didn't see any contribution of my own until we started therapy post-bomb. He says it's too late, it's not going to change, and he wants to be just friends and split up our assets. I thought it was a MLC but he's so consistent and seems so rational, he just seemed to become overwhelmed with his life and identified me as the source of all problems. So with that happening, our sex life was not as good as it had been, and it's never been as good as it was before we had kids in our early 30s.
I believe there are lots of causes for his lack of interest:
- He's attracted to the media image of youth and beauty. For years he liked looking at Maxim and Victoria's Secret models. When our S got old enough to start borrowing the magazines I objected and H just completely cut off the subscriptions. I can't possibly meet this standard of beauty because I'm a real life 45yo woman, but I've always been more athletic/slim than busty/sexy.
- He used to joke that I should get a boob job. When I had a cancer scare at age 37 he said it was a good chance to get that boob job. I finally told him how much that hurt my feelings and asked him to stop, he got mad and said fine! I'll never bring it up again.
- He built up resentment over years of not telling me what he thought, felt or wanted, and me assuming then that whatever I thought, felt or wanted was fine with him. He said post bomb that he didn't feel listened to.
- Passive aggressive behavior on both our parts, more resentment.
- two of his best friends are divorced and dating super hot sexy girls 20-25 years younger than them and telling him about the great sex they're having. I asked last summer if he felt tempted by the idea of having a girlfriend like that. H said no, but I think he just didn't feel like starting an argument.
- Probably most important of all is my role in it. I'm somewhat inexperienced and inhibited, find it very difficult to talk about sex, and the less we were having, I felt like we were getting rusty. This year I had decided I wasn't getting any younger, I needed to grow up and be more assertive about what I wanted, so I was making suggestions like putting some music on or how much I liked being kissed a certain way. I suspect he felt criticized by that but I was trying really hard not to.
- The last time we ML he ended with a sarcastic joking comment "Well THAT was sexy", which I later learned was regarding himself but sounded like it was regarding me. I said WTH and became upset but he didn't explain what he meant at that time, we just went to sleep. I think perhaps our inability to communicate fed his possible feelings of inadequacy.
Ugh. Our sitch has so many problems wrapped up in it that I don't know how we'll ever dig down through all the layers. Here's how I think about it: it sometimes seems like it would be easier to start fresh with someone new. I'm sure that's what H thinks, and I've seen many friends divorce and start over. What if WE could do that? We have so much already going for us - values, finances, kids, great friendship. We're learning to improve the things we didn't do so well - listening, communicating, negotiating. Why not just close the door on all the stuff I mentioned above, forget it, and start fresh with each other?
I can do it. I'm waiting to see if he'll come around.
I hate to say it Adinva but it sounds like affair script coupled with the withdrawal and change in behavior. I'm sure his friends' new relationship have had an impact on him.
I'm convinced that happened with my W. Her friend was pursuing serial affairs. Every day they would talk and the friend would share the fun and excitement she was having and my W had nothing to contribute. What's more fun than being pursued by someone new when you're in your 40's? My W bearing witness to this made it seem like an attractive option, and the fact that her friend was leading the way made it "ok" whereas otherwise it may have been regarded as wrong. My W started sharing her own pursuits, and when I found everything I could see that every day the excitement built a little bit, "the line" got pushed farther out, and the two really fed off each other's situation.
When our spouses get into situations like that, they are conflicted, they do feel badly about what they are doing on some level, but at the same time it's intoxicating. The easiest way to feel good about it and keep it going is to convince themselves that we "drove them to it" and therefore we must be the bad person in the relationship.
Once they start to build that rationalization, they look for ways to reinforce it, so any weakness or slight on our part becomes fuel for their fire, and the good things we bring to the table are ignored or written off as "too little to late" or "a token effort" versus a real change.
We get into a situation where we are walking on eggshells, unsure what we have done to get here, so we start examining our shortcomings and convincing ourselves that the situation is our fault. That's the irony of it -- we're being betrayed, but we shoulder most of the guilt.
This is of course conjecture, your H may be having an MLC and there may be no OW at all. Maybe the dynamics are the same. In any case, when H pulls away, he'll be looking for ways to justify what he's doing because he knows you don't like it and it's hurting you. He needs to find peace with his actions, and he does that by making everything your fault, by exaggerating your shortcomings, and by ignoring your strengths.
When we detach and refuse to pursue, we both give them the space they want, and force them to question the rationalizations they've constructed. When your efforts don't seem to be designed "for them" but for you, then you can no longer be the bad guy, because you're not engaged. Although it may feel like the wrong thing to do because H seems to want to walk, detaching or even going dark may be your best move here.
One thing I took to heart from DB is that if what you're doing isn't working, do something else! (Provided of course you've given your actions sufficient time to bear results)
I had "the talk" with my W last night which has me feeling off balance today. If you wouldn't mind commenting on my last post in the SSM forum I would appreciate it!
Accuray
Thanks Accuray.
I feel like I'm doing the right thing for now. With no affair out in the open, I'm giving him all the space it's possible to give within the same bed and home. He's going on his trips, not communicating when he doesn't want to, and not getting hassled about it by me.
I'm not dark but I'm doing my own thing. I joined a meetup group and went on a hike - did not talk to him about it at all, and maybe he doesn't even know...yet. I went on the cruise with my S's. I bought myself a ring, a new scent, I'm dressing nicer and exercising more at the gym with S13. This is not a radical change but I'm not pressing him for affirmations, which is a radical change. I'm still making dinner but not pressing him to join us; last night he wandered down and ate after we had all eaten and were heading to the gym.
Now, if an affair comes out in the open, things will probably need to come to a head. I'd probably tell him that he needs to live elsewhere while he's involved with an OW, and if he moves we'd tell our kids what's up. He already has a place to stay lined up, with friend and 23yo girlfriend. Although this crisis might hasten the end of limbo (one way or another) it would definitely harm our kids. For now, if there's an affair, he's having to sneak around and keep his wife and kids, mom, brothers and sister, in the dark. That can't make you feel good about yourself.
I've definitely been demonized and my strengths disregarded, but it hasn't hurt my self esteem. I know who I am and I know my value. I'm improving on the weaknesses that were justifiably pointed out to me. I have hope for the future because someday in about 7 or less years I'll be in a better M with him or I'll be in a better life without him. The in-between part of waiting to see which one it will be is tough, but when I think of the 7 more years my kids deserve a happy home life I find it easy to bear. When the little one goes to college all bets are off.
As for whether my DBing is working... while I complain that I'm in endless limbo and nothing is changing, the bigger picture looks more successful. (1) his timeline of mediation by mid-July and legal separation by August never happened and shows no signs of happening. (2) there's been a 180 degree shift in the atmosphere at home - he's less irritable and I'm less outraged, everything is calmer. (3) the anxiety and depression I knew I was handling on my own is now being treated with medication and I'm glad these events caused me to get that treatment. (4) we've started bigger discussions about issues like finances, raising the kids, etc, and found areas of agreement where he had chalked it up as hopeless before. (5) I touched him and he didn't recoil. (6) he's still in the house, still in our bed. (7) I've demonstrated through words and actions a paved and smooth way home. These things and more cause me to think that even if he's intoxicated in an affair right now, he might get over it and save our family. The man I married, who I believe is still in there, is a man of honor and character and would not abandon his family.
Hi Oldtimer! I copied this out of Accuray's SSM thread so I could take the opportunity to respond.
Advina,
Of course it is reasonable to want a loving vibrant passionate sex life. It is a wonderful thing to have in one's M. No one wants to be married to a sibling.
you're presenting two extremes but Accuray has someone who is showing curiosity about his readings and attempting to be more sexual for him. In my MR too I was interested in ML and would give us an overall B+ in that department and for me the good far outweighed the mediocre. My H has decided to put me in the sibling category but I wasn't there, I was just not super-fulfilled.
And no, not everyone who has been raped or molested would find power/control games problematic. I think you imagine something happening without genuine consent. THAT would be unacceptable in any circumstances and would definitely be traumatizing to a sexual abuse survivor.
I have a tendency to lash out beyond reason whenever grabbed, groped, or tickled; although I was lucky to have had a 99% safe and secure life, I was groped once at about age 7 and I lashed out at the babysitter who did it and he stopped. This event affected my sexual identity for the rest of my life so far. I'm hoping to heal more completely as a result of this situation now, since I finally feel free to see a therapist and am much more open and less ashamed about talking about it. H was totally opposed to either of us going to therapy before now.
Absolutely. But that is not at all what I suggested. More like, "Here's a sexy blindfold, put in on, oh that looks nice, lie down and relax...Is that OK? Tell me if it isn't..." "OK, now we're going to try...." No REAL coercion or force. Encouragement, direction, letting someone else manage/control the experience so that you can actually be *present* and focused on yourself rather than trying to be what H wants, "act" properly, get to the end of the sex which ends in H's O as efficiently as possible while gritting teeth, counting, making shopping lists, etc... The idea is to take the responsibility for the success of the sexual encounter out of your hands so that it really CAN be about you. So, it is not genuine control or coercion AT ALL. It is freely choosing to let go and let yourself be vulnerable and present. For many woman, because we are raised to make sex be all about the man, unless we are given the space NOT to have to perform in various ways for the man and NOT to be responsible for making sure the man Os, it is almost impossible to be sexually present. This can become even MORE true with a history of sexual abuse. Anyway, that is what is going on there. But of course, that dynamic won't work for everyone. That's why I said to try it. He should be able to tell easily if it is working for his W or if she is repelled.
The way you described it the second time sounded a lot less threatening. Accuray seems to have tried stuff like this, and for him it may just be a matter of taking all the overt pressure off her to change.
Look, I really, really understand your pain. You seem stuck in that very resentful place. It is a horrible hopeless place to be. I hurt for you.
What are you doing to get out of it? Have you told H you'd like him to buy you something sexy and try some sex toys? I'm not sure what you mean by entry-level toys. The best thing you can do is get excellent sex toys that will actually work. A tiny little buzzing vibrator like comes with lube in the grocery stores now probably won't do much. You want changes in your SL to be successful.
This is food for thought for when I might have a chance to use it. I really hit age 45 before I felt I ought to "man up" and be more brave about asking for what I wanted or needed. I suspect it killed what little spark he had left.
My H has never said I'm beautiful or even pretty. He's never shopped for underwear for me and never complimented the underwear I own. He's never seemed interested in me until super late at night with the lights out when I'm sleepy. He thinks it's funny to be crass and talk about bumping uglies or funbags, which makes me feel disgusting. We have visited a sex toy shop once when out with friends in DC and I found it embarrassing to be in there. I attended a ladies only sex party once and found it embarrassing too, plus it made me feel sad because I couldn't see myself enjoying any of it that much with my H. I went home with some edible lotion and used it sometimes on nights when I thought we might be ML that night. My H is very sarcastic and jokey all the time so I felt inhibited by the fact that if I tried to have a serious talk about sex toys or lingerie I would be made to feel like a laughingstock. Not to focus on complaints so much; I really did enjoy sex with H and with a good fantasy running in my head I could O with him every time. I had never had an O with my previous boyfriends. His sense of humor was wonderful to me everywhere but the bedroom, and he's a great friend and dad, good looking and successful. I felt with all that my B+ lovelife was fine and probably better than some people have with their spouses.
Also, what would you do if H actually tried any of these things? What would happen if he had a VS catalog and asked you to look at it with him? How would you react? Would you be enthusiastic or would you be reluctant? Would you feel as though you'd have to not do it or as though you should disapprove? What would it be like? How would you react if H asked you to go to a sex shop with him?
I wish. I have come to the realization that I needed to drive these things and see if he would be enthusiastic or reluctant. I was too passive about what I hoped for because I did not want him to think I was criticizing his technique or trying to change him.
_________________________
Best,
Oldtimer
Thank you thank you Oldtimer.
Your list above is great. Keeping track of the positives, even small ones is a big part of DB that is too easy not to do.
"(1) his timeline of mediation by mid-July and legal separation by August never happened and shows no signs of happening."
This is huge. You stopped the freight train. At some point he was headed to a lawyer and taking legal steps. Now he is not. He probably shrugs it off that he has been busy etc, but unconsiously this is a decision not to take a permanent step.
"(2) there's been a 180 degree shift in the atmosphere at home - he's less irritable and I'm less outraged, everything is calmer. (3) the anxiety and depression I knew I was handling on my own is now being treated with medication and I'm glad these events caused me to get that treatment."
Thank goodness for modern medicine. I think 2 & 3 go hand & hand. It would be so much harder to keep the house calm without the A/Ds. I feel the same way. Although I have tried A/D before this time they worked, maybe you just have to be at rock bottom.
"(4) we've started bigger discussions about issues like finances, raising the kids, etc, and found areas of agreement where he had chalked it up as hopeless before"
This a big one since it is showing that there can be change. As is often said on these boards the WAS believes that there is no hope for change you are proving that assumption wrong. Good for you
"(5) I touched him and he didn't recoil. (6) he's still in the house, still in our bed"
Okay, I am so envious! Not a great quality of mine but you should remember every day what big positives those are!
"(7) I've demonstrated through words and actions a paved and smooth way home. "
Keep it simple, make it easy for them. Really good job
I spoke with a DB coach last night and a big thing she emphasized was my time frame. I said I was hoping to reconcile around February and she thought that was way too soon.
We need to remember this will take time. But it can happen. Dont rush it. Just keep writing down the positives.
I am so inspired by this post I am going to write my list of positives tonight
I often feel like I haven't made the big changes others talk about. I'm listing them out so I can feel a sense of accomplishment.
1. H felt I didn't listen to or respect him. Examples included all the pets I collected. Now I have no birds, no hamster. Eventually I'll phase out the fish tank and just have a dog.
2. H felt I was too lenient with the kids and/or didn't allow him enough say in how they were raised. We have now opened conversations about chores and allowance and I have invited and listened to feedback about where I wasn't being as firm with them as I thought I was.
3. H felt I was irresponsible, flaky or indecisive, lazy, not reliable. I have paid more attention to plans I verbalize to be sure I keep them. I use an online calendar religiously to track my commitments. I obviously still fall back into my internet addiction sometimes. But I am working harder to be a person of my word whether the matter is trivial or significant.
4. H felt I didn't listen when I thought he was being controlling, like about what street I drove on or how I drove. I agreed to give legitimate care to his concerns, modify my actions to honor his anxieties but also asked him to give more thought to ranking his concerns and not treating them all as equally urgent. Bike helmets yes, overshooting the cashier window at the Taco Bell no.
5. I think I was depressed and overwhelmed with the life of a working mom. I did what I needed to kick back and relax but went too far. Sloppy clothes around home and office, not feeling like taking a shower, not trying to look pretty. I take a little time each day to look as nice as I can.
6. I did not pay enough attention to his anxiety about money because I felt so confident in our combination of solid earnings and frugal living. I'm planning to work with H on a budget, and I've cut back on Starbucks, quit guitar lessons, cut both house cleaning and counseling in half. H never says no, but I'm learning to be my own disciplinarian because he has anxiety he expressed only through resentment.
7. I was becoming very short fused with H and younger S11, and am now on A/D and much more aware of my tendency to be reactive and hostile. I can barely remember being that way but I know I was. I'm working on having a better relationship with them all. I'm working on paying more attention to smiling and being friendly.
8. I completely overhauled our disaster of a toyroom into a highly organized and neat home office with shelves for relevant toys. I rid the kitchen of all piles of mail and schoolwork and have maintained that for 5 months. I've chipped away at other projects to make our home more comfortable and neat and invited H's input on prioritizing these.
9. H spoke at length about how angry he was that I left yardwork tools out when it took me multiple days to complete a project. Since learning how that affected him I began to stop working early so I'd have time to put away the tools rather than working until I was late for something else.
10. Overall I've learned and practiced accepting truth from my family members. H needs to be able to tell me something that impacts him and I need to be able to hear that lovingly rather than reacting like a scolded child. I've learned ugly truths about myself and been OK with the idea of improving myself.
These are some things I can look back on and know I made real change. From day to day it seems negligible but from June to December it is a lot.
I would say that is a lot of accomplishment, good for you!! It feels good to see it written out, doesn't it?
Yes Autumn, it feels good! This experience has been humbling, but I can look back and feel good that I'm giving it my best shot.
Adinva, that's damn impressive. You should feel extremely proud of yourself about that. I went through my list with my IC and her response was to make sure you're preserving enough of what you like. If we give up too much, we risk losing some of our happiness.
It may not be the pets that were the issue -- it was the fact that you accumulated the pets without discussing it first. I can relate to that, historically I would complain about things that upon reflection I didn't really care about. What I cared about was being left out of the decision process. If you tell H you would like another hamster he honestly may not care, but if you just get one without telling him he'll pitch a fit. That doesn't mean he doesn't like hamsters. (On the birds though, he may just not like birds)
The 180's are great -- that's awesome! Just make sure they truly make you happy and you don't feel you're depriving yourself of something you would really like. It's easy to swing the pendulum too far and lose part of yourself in the process
Accuray
Thanks Accuray! Just the dog makes me sooooo happy. I've had birds since before we were married, and he said they bugged him; I didn't pay any attention, just got a cage that kept most of the feathers off the floor. I loved them. I adopted two unwanted parakeets to entertain my last finch, and when the finch passed, and one of the parakeets, H said don't get anymore. But the second one then died by accident instead of old age, and I was heartbroken so my au pair and I went and replaced him. H named him Big Red (because he was little and green) so I figured he was fine with my decision, but he really wasn't fine with it. When Big Red (who we renamed Pickle) died post-bomb, I never said a word, just cleared away the cage. I love my H more than birds.
Oh boy did he hate the hamster. It was noisy at night. When hammie died I wanted to go get another right away but I didn't. So he exaggerates a little that I never listened. But overall, yes, pets aside there was a trend of when we disagreed I badgered him or out-reasoned him until he felt like he couldn't say no. I learned a lot about my tendency to impose my reality on others or discount others' opinions. It honestly didn't occur to me that I wasn't right.
I like myself tons. I have a dog, that's the most important pet, and kids, and I do important things and fun things, and I'm becoming more thoughtful and smarter about relationships. (I tell you what, the first crappy apartment I move to without him will have a canary in it, so there.)
LOL on the canary. Good for you.
Accuray
OK you guys and your crockpots motivated me to get mine out and I wanted to share this new recipe I tried for Mediterranean Roast Turkey (search at Cooking Light or All Recipes and it'll come up). Wow, was it yummy!
Journaling,
I can feel my anger seeping out here and there. All these years I would have thought I was really healthy about expressing anger and moving past it. First thing my T suggested in our first meeting was that I should read the Dance of Anger. I thought she was nuts but humored her. In fact I have been angry, and I've acted angry, and didn't even know it. It's easy for me to put it away, put on a happy attitude, and be practical about the future rather than wallowing in what's done. But I can tell that it's there when I see little things come out.
Like my strong reaction today to people trying to make their WAS's feel better. And my "crappy apartment" comment. And my resentment that H is sleeping through another dinner. My wiser head knows he has jet lag, but my inner child is pouting.
I am going on the assumption that I can put all this stuff behind me when it's time to, and move on to a happy life with or without H. I see others talking about all the stuff they need to "work through" and I think I'm going to skip that part. Those who've gone this way before will know if I'm kidding myself or not. I'm trusting in therapy to pull me out of this on the other side if needed.
I felt no anger when the bomb hit, just sadness and regret. I was like that for months -- just sadness. My IC kept saying she wanted to know what I've been doing with my anger and I told her I didn't have any, but she kept asking.
Last week for some reason I got really angry (which can be seen by my posts on the SSM forum). Nothing really brought it on, probably just a release of bottled up anger. DB really requires that you smash it down and not deal with it in the moment, particularly if WAS is still living with you.
Eventually that WILL work its way out and when it does, you will feel better. This is a good place to vent it.
Accuray
Sorry hit submit too soon -- I think the reason it came out is that I finally got to a place where I feel we're "reconciled enough" that W isn't going to leave again if things get tough.
That security allowed me to get angry, as before I was trying so hard to "act as if" to stay on the DB path.
Don't know if that helps.
Accuray
What does she mean "what are you doing with your anger"? what do you DO with anger? In Dance of Anger it explains that anger is an alarm system telling you that you should do something about; just venting it doesn't get you anywhere and damages your relationships. You might listen to your anger to learn that you need to stand up to your spouse, or leave the situation, or negotiate an agreement, etc.
I vented plenty in the little notebook I filled up post-bomb, before I found this site. I filled it with tears and outrage and sorrow and grief. Questions and hope and fears. Lessons and accomplishments. I rarely tell my anger to my friends and family, nor my H, because it will get me away from where I want to go, not toward. I am plenty angry that H would leave me and our kids.
But feeling that doesn't get me where I want to go. When I get there, if I get there, what will be the point of dredging it up again?
This is all hypothetical at this point.
Sometimes the smiley face next to my username really bugs me.
Celebration of a small success: This morning H left our room on his way to work, then came back upstairs and said "the turkey was good" and left again. (I guess he ate some for breakfast.) THIS is the nice guy I'd be interested in being married to. What seems to be working - space and lots of it, good food cooked and kitchen cleaned up before going to bed.
hi Adinva,
any success is a positive development imo. i, too, have been trying to stay on top of a few chores which i know make a difference, especially the dishes.
i used to do them not because i wanted to but because they had to be done and my W would complain about that to me.. that i should "want to do them". i would ask her "who wants to do dishes?" and we'd go round and round about it. what i realized is that nobody wants to do dishes and that really wasn't what my W was saying to me. she was saying that if i had really put her and our relationship first, i would want to do the dishes because i knew/understood how much stress that added to everything else she was doing and by lessening her stress it was demonstrable that i cared. it's taken me a while to get that.
i really think that you've made a great many changes for the better and i hope your H can see that in you and your actions.
~j
Ugh I can't believe if you're doing the dishes that's not enough because you should be WANTING to do the dishes! Crazymaking. Kudos that you were doing dishes.
My H does all of our laundry. He's better at it than me. I thank him for it all the time and all he asks is that I put mine away when it's folded. I bragged about him to friends. He's awesome. (I have no idea if he wants to do it, never thought to ask him his feelings about the laundry!)
I agree that it is rewarding to do a chore just because it needs to be done, and not just because you're about to lose your family and maybe it's one way you can keep it together. It's also an act of love in my H's love language, acts. It's also nice to wake up to a clean kitchen. I did it for that and enjoyed that, even though I did not enjoy the actual work.
Jae you seem to be in my neck of the woods, nice to see the sun today, huh?
What does she mean "what are you doing with your anger"? what do you DO with anger? In Dance of Anger it explains that anger is an alarm system telling you that you should do something about; just venting it doesn't get you anywhere and damages your relationships. You might listen to your anger to learn that you need to stand up to your spouse, or leave the situation, or negotiate an agreement, etc.
Thanks, I don't know what the heck she meant, but she kept asking me about it so I figured it must be important. I never vent anger in our relationship, it takes A LOT to get me visibly angry.
Maybe her point was that if I am angry and not dealing with it, that's probably not such a good thing. I do like your perspective on it above, but I do thing you have to deal with anger.
If you keep it bottled up it causes all kinds of problems as I see that you have realized.
Accuray
oh... is that what that is?! i didn't recognize it!!!
oh, i've been doing all kinds of house chores to try to help out... been making dinner (though i don't do that much any longer), laundry (now just my own), sweeping, mopping just generally keeping things up... i, apparently, have a higher "slob" threshold than my W does though.
i need to investigate this "love language" idea further.
Count your blessings. That's my thought for the day. Sorry it's a downer.
Last weekend, Thanksgiving weekend, a father of four in my neighborhood took his youngest son, age 7, and their dog, out for a ride in their canoe. The canoe tipped over. Bystanders were able to get the boy, and the dog made it, but they could not find the dad. Divers finally found his body Monday afternoon.
My 6th grader attends school with another of his sons, and my 8th grader attends school with his daughter. I believe their other son is a 4th grader.
This family has a new meaning attached to Thanksgiving forevermore, and their Christmas this year will probably be the most horrible imaginable.
I'm sad for what we are all going through here but if our kids have two living parents who love them they are luckier than some. Count even your smallest blessings.
Peace.
So true. I blessed with two angels. I couldnt have more beautiful girls and they WILL BE OKAY. Even the president survived/thrived after his dad walked away
Adinva - that was definitely a downer but it is just as much a reminder of how short and precious life is and how we should do all we can in this short life of ours to make the world a better place.
Now if we could only get our S's to see this before it is too late......
Hi Adinva, definitely true that we have to count our blessings. My DB coach has trained me to always review the positive before discussing the negative. If you get a minute would LOVE more of your input, had a big night last night.
Accuray
Today: Working Through Anger
I went in to MC today, alone, with a big question. I have now realized that a lot of my part in feeding the dysfunctional cycle we were in was because I was angry, hurt and resentful, and did not know it. I was being very passive aggressive but I would not have said I was angry about anything.
H had an EA about 5 years ago and since he is very nonverbal and he said it wasn't anything, I set a few boundaries, we made plans to try going out on dates together, and I expressed my hurt and anger to him. Then I was still mad so I told myself I'd let it go one year, but if in one year he hadn't left me and things were otherwise fine, I would simply let it go. One year later I did. I just let it go. I didn't think about it anymore, I didn't blame him or act mad, I didn't think of it as an affair anymore, I just closed the door and moved on. But things went downhill from there and here we are with him so miserable he wants a divorce. We have both been very passive aggressive and have been withholding respect and affection, etc etc. I read Dance of Anger and found out that I was mad. I had to really think hard and look back to find anything I might have been angry about, that's how much I thought I was past it.
So my big question for t was, if I failed so abominably at handling anger before, and it got me to this place as a result, and I hear all these people saying "you have to work through your anger", what does that look like? It's not venting, it's not letting go, what is it? I feel so hurt and humiliated and angry at the things my H has said to me since and during the bomb, and I'm livid that he'd think of walking away from his children and me. I am setting that anger aside now because I need to focus on me and possibly saving the marriage, but if I don't know how to "work it through," then we'll be right back here if we do reconcile, or I'll be bitter and dysfunctional if we don't.
She said there are three steps to go through:
First is recognizing it internally. Get to know your pattern of anger, are you not aware of it right away, do you have a long fuse, are trying to be adaptible? That's me. I say, act and think as if I'm not angry or hurt. I put my needs down to adapt. She said get to know your pattern and recognize your feelings and their intensity. She has a short fuse and gets more angry than is called for sometimes, and knows that about herself, so she will sometimes try to stop a situation so she has time to think more and come up with a productive response that fits the intensity she really feels. She recommended I journal my feelings so I get a better awareness of what I feel and the degree to which I feel it.
Second is internally working through the intensity and pain of what you feel. I think working through there means allowing yourself to really feel it. Sometimes I know my best interest is not served in showing or expressing my anger and hurt, like right now with my H, so I'm hiding it. I sometimes don't even realize my rage until it comes out in a strong reaction to something else. So I do need to try to feel it, in a safe environment, and cry or be mad, or journal or whatever. I do that here. I found that venting some of it to friends made them act uncomfortable.
I don't know if this is part of #1 or #2 but she said to write down what you feel angry/hurt about and take responsibility for how you respond. Perhaps you played a role in the events that led up to the situation that makes you mad. For example, in my relationship issues with H, I played a big role by eroding our relationship with unaddressed resentment and passive aggressive behavior, reacting emotionally.
Third is determining the most effective way of communicating what you need to communicate. For me, I thought was really good at expressing feelings right in the moment, but Dance of Anger taught me how unproductive it was. H then knew how I felt, but he resented me and nothing changed. My t used an example that in a phone call with her insurance co she expressed her feelings then and there about the rude representative, but she thought it would have been more productive if she had just ended the call and tried again later. For me, I recently noticed I felt undermined when H yelled from upstairs for S11 to turn off the tv when I had just told him he could watch the end of his show. I expressed that to H calmly and privately, but if I had waited longer I would have realized I didn't feel that strongly about it and with everything else going on would probably have let it slide. Generally he's been better about that kind of thing. In that case maybe the most productive way to communicate would have been a mental note to later have a conversation about how we both avoid duplicating each others' discipline, or wait and see if it's a trend or a one-off. Not every angry feeling needs to be vented.
We discussed a little about the ineffectiveness of revealing your hurt or anger over something you need, asking for the needed thing, and then just getting angry again when you don't get it. T used an example of a wife who needed her H to cook dinner. He did for a while and then stopped and so she cooked it instead and felt angry. Your agreements need to have some "teeth" I think, or consequences, not just "or else...or else...well, or else I'll get real mad!" My T said what needs to happen isn't D or leaving or some big consequence but rather you come back and counternegotiate. You didn't cook like you said you would, what's that about, do you need something in order to be able to do it? (I'm kind of struggling with understanding this part). Here's another example; when H had his EA we resulted in deciding we should go out together once a month. The dates were awkward and weird, not a lot of fun, kind of forced, and they fizzled out when I stopped planning them. T said we should have gone on one date and then had a talk to monitor progress, see how it went, what we could improve next time. Another example - my usual response when my needs weren't met was to yell and cry and lecture, which H hates. He would practically promise to do better just to shut me up. Now I realize that my lecturing was imposing my reality on him - I was not listening to his side or seeking it out, just telling him how it was. I should have asked more questions and tried to understand why he wasn't doing these things I asked for, and considered whether he didn't really want to be married or did. I know I was always afraid of asking that kind of a question. I suspect he wouldn't have given an honest answer because he's so conflict avoidant. But I know how to have better, less threatening conversations now. And I know words don't make things worse, they just help you understand how things are.
T says be in touch with your needs and legimately ask your partner for what you need. And your partner should not pay lip service or let it fizzle out (like our dates) - then it's not a good faith effort.
No one is going to get all their needs met 100% of the time, and needs change from time to time, but partners should make a good faith effort in response to what the other person is asking.
The rest of the session we talked about an incident with my S13 on the cruise, debarkation day, when he got irrationally anxious about being late getting out, and he spoke to me in a sarcastic way with words I swear he was channeling from my H. I had never seen so clearly how S could act just like H. I didn't handle it as well as I wanted at the time, just kept insisting it was fine, and later I told him his sarcastic comment bothered me and he apologized.
I had time to sit in the waiting room before my appointment today so I was working on this myself and realized, (1) if S is anxious about something I should not disregard and belittle his concerns. He has a right to feel them. (2) I should not have attached my baggage to the tone and words he used and should have just asked him to correct his tone to a more respectful one and try again with what he wanted to say. (3) I should accept that it's ok to be a little compulsive and a rule follower and help S13 accept that it's ok for others to be a little more relaxed and free flowing. T said I should revisit this with S later on to notice together ways in which we are different. He has to make choices to handle when he's feeling nervous - we could brainstorm that he could have packed and waited outside for us. He could have called guest relations to ask if we were ok. he could have trusted in me as the adult in charge. She said if he comes up with these ideas he'll learn coping skills, rather than having me suggest them to him. He also should know that he needs to communicate in a way that isn't denigrating when people aren't being as exacting as he is. He's got to learn to allay his own anxiety without coming across as controlling with his peers.
That's it for today, I'm off to GAL, spa weekend to celebrate my sister's 50th! In deference to my H we're staying close to home and using a groupon deal on everything, and actually not just deference to my H but I feel a lot better about the cost than some of the other ideas we were kicking around. So, have a great weekend y'all. I'll check in now and then if I'm just lounging around.
Very interesting post, Adinva! I would say that many of the solutions to your R problems are contained within your own written words above. You should print off this post and hi-light those key points and concepts and work to apply them in your daily life.
Best of luck and enjoy your spa weekend!
A cautionary tale Adinva, thank you for sharing. The other side of this of course is that as the LBS we take on too much responsibility for what has happened. Just as WAS re-writes history to make everything our fault, we can get to the same place because we are the one who is left behind.
I guess the point is that if H were meeting your needs, there would be no reason for you to be passive aggressive and resentful, so it wouldn't really matter how well you could handle it when you got there.
As the LBS it's tempting to beat ourselves up too much. You know a ton of your marriage issues are due to H's problems and you can't own those.
I'm with you on the anger -- DB pretty much requires that you smash that down and put it in the back seat. To me, that's a lot of what "act as if" is all about -- act as if you're not angry, disappointed and frustrated. That HAS to come out. For me, it came out when I felt it was safe because I didn't think W was going to disappear anymore.
I did like your T's advice, seemed very good. Just be sure you don't take too much on your shoulders for what's happened. Sure you did some things wrong, had weaknesses, etc., so does everybody. The point is that you recognize them, you want your family intact, and you're working like heck to make sure it has a happy outcome and that you come out of this a better person. The anger at H may well turn to pity when you realize how much progress you have made while he stays the same.
Accuray
Hey Accuray! Thanks for posting here.
You're right that H did and does have his own issues to sort out. But I was very unaware of what was going on between us and unable to help myself or him. Now I'm more aware, and practicing better skills. If he comes around there will still be things he needs to do but I'll know how to ask for them. If he doesn't come around, I'm already becoming a better mom and learning how my kids can avoid some of our mistakes. And I can take all my new skills to my future life. So I do really appreciate the support and having some buddies on my side, but I also know I'm the only one here that I can work on. I don't think I'm being too hard on myself at all.
Journaling,
Just had a wonderful weekend with my sis! She never married and has had lots of boyfriends and breakups, and has dated divorced guys, so she has been curious to know more about what happened with my H and has had advice to offer. I have to take it with a grain of salt. I find myself frustrated that an unmarried person who should break up with a complete jerk who has made her unhappy for 3 out of the 4 months they've been together feels just as much pain as someone who married till death do us part and has kids and is facing a breakup. You shouldn't grade pain and compare who has a right to more, but it takes willpower to avoid it.
Most of the weekend we just relaxed and did yoga, got massages, went to a movie and chilled. It was fun. It's also fun when people come up and say "you two must be sisters!" which happened about three times over the weekend. I thanked H for taking care of the kids so we could have our weekend.
I had a dilemma on what to do with the $50 my p's gave us for our anniversary. It took me a couple of days to find myself in the kitchen at the same time as H to open their card. Took a few more days to think of what we could spend it on. I asked him last night what he thought about using it for our Christmas tree. Money's tight and we always get a tree so it will help to use this $ for the tree, and it won't seem like a permanent symbol of a pretty phony anniversary. In my opinion, we're still in the same house, we deserve a card and a present! Anyway...
Since we married Thanksgiving weekend, my anniversary gift from him was always a Christmas tree. Lots of our wedding gifts were Christmas ornaments. It's always meant a lot to me to have a beautiful pine tree and colorful ornaments and tinsel. It's bigger than just our anniversary. So he'll help me get it home this year and we'll have a beautiful tree and save money. I think it's a win-win.
H pulled back a bit after my weekend away. I started telling him a story - we went to a Bikram yoga class and unknowingly got there for a special class presented by a visiting senior teacher under Bikram himself. The class was amazing and in the moment and it went two hours over the usual one and a half. H was just going uh huh uh huh I need to pick up my car (very uninterested tone). So I stopped with the stories realizing it wasn't a good time to try to connect, and went back to my glass of wine and SNL on DVR.
Later I got in the car to drive him to pick up his car and from the moment he sat down he was reading his iphone. I personally think that's rude. His social skills around me have gotten abysmal in the last year or so, a reflection of how he feels in the marriage, I think. I wish him luck dating if he doesn't break some of those habits. Anyway, I was being quiet but finally needed to ask him about spending the anniversary $ on a tree, since I didn't know when we'd have a chance to discuss it again, so I said "Are you busy?" and he said "Well I'm reading, what?" so I asked and he said OK and went back to reading. Whatever. It's not going to get a rise out of me.
Later, he noticed I had folded the laundry while watching my SNL and having my glass of wine. That's his job, but it was there and I was available so I just did it. He thanked me for doing it. (Act of service, small victory?)
I also cleaned up the dishes, which is my job but you would think that three days at home the boys and he would have done their own. It's a chance for me to show a 180 by just doing what needs doing, so I did. I did however make the kids do their part, which is emptying the dishwasher and putting those dishes away. They have to do that in order for me to get their dirty dishes out of the sink and wash the pans. Not very glamorous stuff, but it is nice to do something useful and have a clean kitchen.
H is a lot more affectionate with our dog lately. Not so much affectionate kidding, "you're such a dumb dog" stuff, but hugs and kisses. He invites the dog up to the top of the bed (he has a blanket at the foot that he's supposed to stay on) and he cuddles and kisses him before telling him to get back on his blanket. I think he's getting his affection fixes from the dog like I have been. The dog's loving it!
H told me he'll be going overseas again the week before Christmas, getting home Christmas weekend. I was in our room, he was in the bathroom. I said OK but you'll be home FOR Christmas? And he said "yeah, I'm going BEFORE Christmas, not FOR Christmas" - it had been a little hard to hear from the other room. I asked him "Do you like it there? Are you enjoying what you're doing?" and he said "Yeah, well it might become a permanent job and that would be good" (He's a contractor, always worried about losing his job - apparently very worried about that almost all the time.) So I said "yeah, a permanent job would be good." That was all there was. Since we never talk about his feelings, and he seems so threatened by them, I thought asking him somewhat nonthreatening questions like "are you liking your work" might be a baby step toward reestablishing intimacy conversationally.
Ugh, I feel for you, that is SO HARD. What are you looking to get back to? H seems to really have his guard up, from your posts it seems like talking to him is like balancing on two legs of a chair without falling over.
That is so frustrating. I assume that earlier in your marriage H was affectionate and met your needs?
Everyone on this board really seems to love their WAS and seems fundamentally happy with their match despite being left behind -- despite the fact that WAS treat us so poorly after the bomb.
Part of that undoubtedly is the effect of being rejected -- we want them back BECAUSE they have rejected us. It makes the marriage more important...but that can't be enough. The pain is just too great, there has to be MORE than the rejection effect pulling us back.
What is it for you Adinva, what do you hope to recapture with this man? How did he make you feel good about yourself? What were his more endearing qualities?
--Accuray
I loved being with my H. He seemed so confident, strong and funny. Very athletic, takes great care of himself, never smoked, drank or did drugs. Very smart, ambitious, fun. Good longterm friendships with guys I admired. Strong sense of loyalty and honor. Loves his mom and takes care of her when she needs help. He was silly and could make me laugh when I was getting freaked out about anything. We touched all the time, sitting on the couch our feet would be wrapped up together. Sleeping in my twin bed or in the double we got when we were married, we slept touching. I could sit on his lap, he could dip me dancing. We held hands while he moved the stick shift in his car. We laughed a lot
We were both young and about equal in experiences, except I had traveled more than he had. We had fun traveling together, played golf together. I was low maintenance and fun, so he didn't mind bringing me where he went - family reunions, bachelor party in Vegas. Although we were apart our first two married years because of his job, we had already spent four years together. We saw each other on weekends and had lots of fun at the hotel or apartment his company put him up at in Orlando and Atlanta. He was so handsome. Neither of us had money so we had fun doing things on the cheap, finding bargains, using coupons on a dinner date. Eating ice cream and watching M*A*S*H.
He was kind of stunted emotionally, and so was I. I was embarrassed to be too overtly loving or to receive that. I was not very mature about sex and he wasn't much better, but we had great sex. We just didn't talk about it a lot. Rather than normal terms of endearment he used a silly one that wasn't enamored with but was ok with - I realized it meant I love you. We were kind of immature together and I feel like I grew up and he didn't really.
He doesn't have a romantic bone in his body. Over the years I got more and more frustrated that I couldn't find a way to encourage him in the ways I wanted to be treated. He joked that men who were like what I wanted, romantic, thoughtful, holding hands and talking, are gay.
I'm not a perfectionist - I don't expect 100% of everything to be perfect - we married young and grew together, and both had our flaws. I'm comfortable with him not being perfect if he just listens and tries to be there for me.
I feel as if divorcing him because I don't like some of his habits or features would be very much like getting rid of one of my kids because I didn't like their habits or features. Not possible. I have this life and I want to work within it to make it the best possible. I don't want to ditch it and have a different life. Of course, that's not entirely within my control so all I can do is all I can do, and then I'll accept and thrive in whatever comes next.
What do I hope for the future with my H? I don't want to recapture so much as to learn and grow from here. I want my H to recommit to our family, to show the loyalty and honor that I saw in him before, to again feel pride in providing for and being there for me and our kids. I want to know what NOW makes him feel loved and give him that, and I want to tell him how I would like to be treated and have him do that to show his love for me. I would like to have physical and emotional intimacy again. I would like to feel like "us against the world" again - we once felt we were so good together and so right for each other.
I want to do the things with him that I thought we'd do when we got older. Hang out by a fire on a chilly day, hike and go on adventures, ride bikes, travel. I wanted to love him while his hair got thin and grey, and mine did too. I hoped we could move somewhere less of a daily grind, where we could enjoy nature and not work so hard, maybe when the kids finished college or were in college.
He was never good about telling me what he liked, but I know better now that his reticence and passivity come a lot from his history and personality, and I don't take it as personally. I want to teach him how to love me better, now that I know how to do that. Make sense?
Perfect sense, although it is so frustrating that having him read that is non-DB. It's very moving.
Accuray
It seems we have similarities in our sitchs and our Hs. I will continue to follow your posts for info. Great post on anger.
After years of being emotionally shut down, I have found that I do have a full range of emotions! Who knew?!? But of course, as the old saying goes about healing, The good news is I now feel all my emotions. The bad news is, I now feel all my emotions.
The best thing I've learned about anger is, it's a emotion, there is no moral judgment attached to it, it's neither good nor bad. It's how we react to the anger that is important. I've learned to pause and think and respond rather than react. My anger is usually based in fear, so I would react from that place of fear.
Hi labug, thanks for your comments! I have also been learning or trying to learn not to react to anger. It was a paradigm shift for me. But it's really freeing to know you don't have to be angry or hurt or scared simply because your H is.
H just emailed me his work travel plan. He leaves this weekend and gets home at 4 on Christmas day. I feel disappointed and a little numb, but I feel like I can handle it better than the greater disappointment I felt about him totally missing Thanksgiving. That was the first major holiday he blew off - er I mean had to travel for work during. Christmas feels like less of a blow, and he's not totally missing it. And I have no way of knowing what went on behind the scenes to schedule this flight.
I think perhaps if he has a shred of his former really-involved-dad left in him, he's going to feel bad all on his own missing all of the Christmas shopping. Seeing the candles in the windows on the approach to our house. Enjoying the kids opening their stocking gifts on our bed first thing in the morning. Unwrapping presents at my parents' house at noon. Heading over to our house for the H side of the family's celebration. Someone will need to leave our celebration to get him at the airport.
I defend him when people raise eyebrows about this. What good does it do not to? Let them think what they will, but I'll present a face of tranquility.
Perfect sense, although it is so frustrating that having him read that is non-DB. It's very moving.
Accuray
Thanks Accuray. It's from the heart. I hoped to get some feedback because there's not much element of that passion that others here seek. I feel somewhat lacking in that department and wonder if it's part of why I'm in this sitch. We were most passionate during the first couple of years of dating, but after four years we had a stable, calm and loving relationship that felt like a lifelong love, not a fever. H certainly wasn't passionate/romantic either so if he's seeking that it's a surprise to me. But some of the vets here have made comments that suggest that's not enough to be satisfied with.
He was kind of stunted emotionally, and so was I. I was embarrassed to be too overtly loving or to receive that. I was not very mature about sex and he wasn't much better, but we had great sex. We just didn't talk about it a lot. Rather than normal terms of endearment he used a silly one that wasn't enamored with but was ok with - I realized it meant I love you. We were kind of immature together and I feel like I grew up and he didn't really...
I'm not a perfectionist - I don't expect 100% of everything to be perfect - we married young and grew together, and both had our flaws. I'm comfortable with him not being perfect if he just listens and tries to be there for me...
I feel as if divorcing him because I don't like some of his habits or features would be very much like getting rid of one of my kids because I didn't like their habits or features. Not possible. I have this life and I want to work within it to make it the best possible. I don't want to ditch it and have a different life. Of course, that's not entirely within my control so all I can do is all I can do, and then I'll accept and thrive in whatever comes next...
What do I hope for the future with my H? I don't want to recapture so much as to learn and grow from here...
I would like to have physical and emotional intimacy again. I would like to feel like "us against the world" again - we once felt we were so good together and so right for each other...
I want to do the things with him that I thought we'd do when we got older. Hang out by a fire on a chilly day, hike and go on adventures, ride bikes, travel. I wanted to love him while his hair got thin and grey, and mine did too. I hoped we could move somewhere less of a daily grind, where we could enjoy nature and not work so hard, maybe when the kids finished college or were in college...
He was never good about telling me what he liked, but I know better now that his reticence and passivity come a lot from his history and personality, and I don't take it as personally. I want to teach him how to love me better, now that I know how to do that. Make sense?
It all makes sense to me because these snippets parallel my sitch and my thinking. I remember saying to him at one time not long before the bomb drop that if we could just get the boys launched we could spend more time on us. Guess he had no more time to wait.
Sex was never a deal breaker for me. I always enjoyed it but it was not central to the relationship for me as it was for him. I wasn't able to love him in the way he needed. Yes, he was living in a SSM and I tossed his needs off as not that important because it wasn't important to me.
So sad. But I'm not done working on me yet.
[quote=adinva]
Yes, he was living in a SSM and I tossed his needs off as not that important because it wasn't important to me.
This was another paradigm shift for me - it simply didn't occur to me to think about H's needs as being as important as mine.
This was another paradigm shift for me - it simply didn't occur to me to think about H's needs as being as important as mine.
W and I went to a holiday party this weekend. As we were getting ready, I told W she was going to be "the best looking one there", she was wearing a new outfit and looked great! She started arguing with me that by telling her that, I was putting everyone else down. I just let that go. Last night she told me (again) that I was too critical and that it made her feel badly that I implied the other women weren't as attractive as she is. She was using "that scolding tone" that really pushes my buttons -- it's "shaming" per "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It". It gives men a cortisol dump in our brains and makes us feel physically uncomfortable. She told me that the compliment made her feel badly about herself and me.
I did tell W that when I compliment her and she turns that into me being critical of everyone else and then scolds me for it, she's dropping a bomb on me. I'm getting myself in a positive mindframe and extending a compliment, and when that gets reciprocated with a criticism, it feels really bad.
I told W that I hear her need not to be complimented in that way, but I would appreciate if she would shift per perspective and see that I'm complimenting her because I'm trying to be nice to her -- not trying to criticize or put anybody down -- that's not the point!
Your point really hit home for me Adinva, because for years I've felt my W's priorities were (1) how she felt about things and (2) making sure I understood how she felt about things and (3) that I supported her position. How *I* felt about things wasn't even on the radar.
Accuray
I get that, Accuray. In hindsight I could say that my priorities were (1) how I felt about things, (2) making sure H agreed with me, (3) ignoring H's viewpoint or arguing my case if he didn't agree. But you have more than an average type challenge here. Your W says some pretty irrational things, and has some usual hoops for you to go through in order for her to be comfortable, suggesting that she's emotionally not well. I hope at some point she is willing to get help to get better.
If you are able to detach from her emotions so that her scolding voice doesn't unload cortisol in your brain, if that's possible, that would be a good thing.
LOL on point 3 Adinva! I thought I was the only one. I'm working on me in these scenarios. Last night I did get defensive but was able to recognize that and change course pretty well. I *definitely* wanted to go sulk in the basement and play some guitar but instead I stayed in the room until things improved which was a 180 for me.
It is GREAT to see that you recognize this in your former interactions with H, good for you! That is very difficult that H will be away leading up to Xmas and not get home until 4 -- brutal! That's going to be rough on the kids for sure.
W asked me to write the family "Christmas Letter" to send out with our cards, but when I look back at 2011 I want to cry!
Accuray
Do you have photos of the kids? You could make it more of a photo letter with captions? I love getting peoples' Christmas letters but I don't feel that creative so I just sign cards and enclose a photo. I didn't even do that last year; I think maybe we were struggling then. This year I don't know if I'll do cards.
I also love Christmas letters. I've usually done a short, humorous note with a photo. I'm not even sending cards this year. Bah Humbug! (But my skinny little tree has lights and 12 ornaments.)
Journaling. Not sure if things are better or the same.
H sat at the dinner table with me. That in itself is unusual because he's still usually sleeping at dinner. I made beef stew in the crockpot and the house was really neat and clean. Kids were downstairs until we were about halfway done.
First thing he sees, as he is first to open the crock, is the bay leaf. "Ugh I hate these things." He's had a thing about bay leafs always, so I try to get them out before he runs across them, but it's been awhile and I forgot. I just tried to make it light and said "oh good, you found it - there's just one in there" and I grabbed it and threw it out. We briefly talked about whether they do or don't matter in a recipe and then let it drop. Later I said "Sorry I forgot - next time I'll try it without the bay leaf." I realized the jar only has two tiny old ones left so if I throw them out now, I won't be tempted, also thinking of writing on the recipe not to include the bay leaf.
The stew is yummy so we eat and I take the chance to talk about what he's bought so far for the kids' Christmas presents. We get stuck a little on one item he says is cheaper at Costco. I am thinking I'll go to Costco and he's thinking we'll order it online, so conversation again becomes a bit bristly as we try to understand each other.
We also talked about S13's Spanish. H got an email that there were two projects that needed to be turned in, so he emailed me not to let S play xbox until they were done. S13 said one was at school and the other he didn't know what he was supposed to do, so he kept playing xbox because there was nothing he could do on the Spanish). I emailed the status of this to the teacher and relayed S's request to meet with the teacher in the morning for help. I told S I'd take him over to school at 6:30pm when they reopen the school for kids to pick up things they forgot. After dinner S13 found the powerpoint he had thought was at school in his backpack (ok, yeah, you know he knew it was there all along) and he got to work and finished that project.
Another topic during dinner was when S11 came up to each I asked him if he met with his math teacher as planned about a late project. S11 was supposed to ask his teacher for help today but didn't find enough time between classes. Each time he tried to explain this, S13 and H interrupt him and criticize him for (h) not already knowing that there wouldn't be enough time and just writing a note like H had told him to or (s13) being intimidated by talking to adults, especially girl ones. Twice I asked S13 and H to let him finish, and the third time I just said come sit right next to me and talk to me. I asked him why he didn't go see her at lunch or during study hall, opportunities that we had also discussed. He wasn't sure how to get a hall pass. Since he has the class tomorrow, he said he'd talk to her about it in class, so I emailed her the status.
So, I feel like it's still an effort to really listen to H, and I'm trying but just not getting enough practice since he's seldom around me. As I'm typing this I'm realizing I could practice on other people I come across. And the kids.
I feel like it wasn't a great success trying to be loving or attractive to H during this opportunity (except for the delicious dinner). I went in without a plan, so the things that came up were normal mundane things. If he were someone else I'd ask about his day, but he's not allowed to talk about his work. He was headed out to coach wrestling so it was a short window of opportunity.
I also didn't look my best since I was busy with yoga, crunch time at work, and S11's music lesson so I hadn't bothered to try.
I think I give yesterday a C and try more consistently today. H is going away in three days and will be gone until Christmas. I'd like to use that time to let him see things he'd want to come back to.
OK today's a little better. While H is not here to appreciate it, I gave myself a manicure and discussed with S11 that even though all the stuff cost me $25 I was going to save $25 each time I did it myself. They look good.
Then, I not only washed my hair but I blew the dust off the hot rollers and tried curling it. At no time in my life, not even in high school, was this ever not an enormous hassle. It does make my hair look pretty though, and I know the one person I work with is going to notice.
During the hot roller time I applied natural looking makeup to the very best of my ability. This is another thing I rarely practice and am not good at. I think I look good with no makeup and prefer having a clean face, but that theory to be perfectly honest worked better at 22 than it does at 45. Yes, I am looking as good as I know how.
To top it off, instead of the comfy jeans I put on a coordinated professional outfit.
It's possible that the fact that these things are remarkable is part of why I'm staring into the face of a divorce right now. My feminist side is offended but I'm telling it to shut up.
I put in a couple of good hours of work before checking in to DB again, and I plan to get out and stay out for another couple hours. I planned on yoga at the end of the night tonight instead of during the workday in order to prioritize in a better way. I am working on eating within my WW plan since I no longer benefit from the DB diet - sadness only suppressed my appetite for about a month. So, there's what I'm doing for me today.
My 180s related to H, well, I think I will find one chance to look in his eyes and share a smile or laugh today. If nothing else the dog usually offers an opportunity for this. I also want to work on being a more giving person...
I just sat here for literally three whole minutes trying to think of a way to demonstrate being a giving person to my tired, stressed H who is emotionally withdrawn and nonphysical with me (not even a hug or a footrub is possible right now). I could bring him a Starbucks if it were a weekend morning. I can have a nice dinner ready but that's as far as I got last night and wasn't satisfied with the result. I'm going to toss this one out to you guys on the board. Knowing this guy from my description, what can I do today that expresses giving?
Remind me what his primary love language is?
This seems like it will be tough because he's not looking to receive, he's looking to nitpick. The story about the bay leaf is ridiculous.
If you're looking nice, have the house clean, have addressed his prior petty complaints, make dinner, give him a nice but light compliment (you look nice today), and give him some "butterfly touches" I'd say you have your bases covered, because I'm not sure he would accept more than that right now based on what you've said.
I assume you've tried initiating sex and he has refused. If you think there's any chance he was just "punishing you" then but would be interested in sex now, you could try saying or texting something flirtatious after you've had the chance to read his mood tonight and then "make yourself available" later.
That's fairly risky pursuing behavior, so you really have to read it right. You could try texting something a bit more racy if that would be a 180 for you. Be prepared for him to not respond or to regard it as "friends with benefits". Would you be OK with that? If not, don't go there.
He's leaving for a while, I'd probably start with just trying to be as nice to him as you can be, then read the situation the best you can and decide if you want to take more risk.
Accuray
I think you are doing great. Keep up the clean house, good food, and looking good. How about trying adding some music at home. Tunes that are calm, that you know he likes but are not sentimental.
The most important thing is consistency, he might have reacted badly to the stew yesterday because he thinks it's a ploy. Keep making dinner, keep the house clean and keep up your looks - do these things as much for yourself as you do for him.
Keep it up
Thanks both of you for your comments - it is so amazing to have this resource where people tell you honestly what they think. Thank you.
So, Accuray, um, since H told me in June that he was not attracted to me and would never ML with me again, I haven't tried initiating anything but one butterfly touch on the arm. He mistakenly or not did lie down across my back when we were at the beach. That's it, since June! I do not know if I could bring myself to try to initiate; my sexuality right now is cuddled up in a fetal position. I'll think about it but I feel pretty remedial in that area right now. I don't even know how to flirt in a text message. Wish I did. When the message is "on my way home" is there a reply that could remotely be construed as flirty?
I sure wish I could be in one of those movie scenes where they are just out of their minds with passion and fall into bed. It's going to take some doing to get that ever to happen with my H. We've never done that even when I was gorgeous and 22 and didn't have annoying habits.
Remind me what his primary love language is?
Acts of service, with possibly gifts a distant second.
The story about the bay leaf is ridiculous.
Thank you for that!
I know I'm not crazy.
I just threw away the remnants and put a little note in the jar that says "M____ doesn't like bay leaves
"
That'll do it!
It IS ridiculous but he's said it like 20 times over the years. It would not kill me to do this little thing for him.
You have a great since of humor and ability to roll with the punches. Love it!
Isn't it sad that the break-up of marriages is usually about a lot of little things that create a snowball effect until it's big enough to crush you?
It is sad labug. I found it astonishing. I could NOT believe that this would happen over such seemingly insignificant matters.
The good news is that it then MUST be possible for us to save our Ms with equally seemingly insignificant changes. That's what I hope.
I believe so also but my H is not on the same page. Our problems are almost exclusively related to communication and if we could just improve that piece everything else would follow.
But I think he's too hurt and too scared.
Sad for sure.
I think this is my sitch: "But some (WAW) have suffered for a long time with some pretty selfish LBSers. Then finally, unnoticed by the LBSer, the WAS just runs out of steam and lets go..."
posted by Antlers in another thread
Hi Adinva,
"since H told me in June that he was not attracted to me and would never ML with me again, I haven't tried initiating anything but one butterfly touch on the arm."
What was his reaction to your butterfly touch? Did you talk to a DB coach about this?
My DB coach STRONGLY encouraged making a habit of butterfly touches. You need to get the physical connection going. Remember to believe nothing that he says and only half of what he does. The "no sex" decree may have been a test.
I would definitely discuss with a DB coach if you can. Abstaining from physical contact feels like a mistake to me.
I would possibly revisit that and try to start easing into touching more frequently.
Accuray
I think this is my sitch: "But some (WAW) have suffered for a long time with some pretty selfish LBSers. Then finally, unnoticed by the LBSer, the WAS just runs out of steam and lets go..."
posted by Antlers in another thread
I saw that same post on the other thread.... it rang a bell with me. I've been in therapy for almost a year now to work on my control issues (which go hand-in-hand with selfish.) Sadly, it wasn't until H dropped the bomb, that I did a dramatic 180 in my interactions with him. He says that it makes him mad that he had to move out for me to get the motivation to change.
I think this is my sitch: "But some (WAW) have suffered for a long time with some pretty selfish LBSers. Then finally, unnoticed by the LBSer, the WAS just runs out of steam and lets go..."
posted by Antlers in another thread
the reason I said that was b/c I saw my MLCer h as being so selfish for a long time...and when I finally snapped and ran out of steam,
I became the WAS in effect, ...and he became the lbser...go figure
Adinva
I have often heard that feminist voice within, challenging me not to "surrender" to conventional expectations about how to look.
But I'm not an ugly or heavy woman and I know my h married me in part b/c he was very attracted to me. So in a way, isn't it reasonable to make an effort to keep it up?
Besides, it could be seen as an "act of service", which is your h's LL right?
Maybe I'm shallow but my h is in excellent physical shape, for a man at any age. He ran a marathon, lifts weights, weighs what he weighed in college and looks FINE...So I am grateful that my h is in good shape.
[/i]
Since your h made the comment about attraction, or not feeling it, then it obviousy matters to him so, why not do your best?
And being a little mysterious would not hurt either.
Let him wonder why you are looking so good. If you can act as if you had a place to go or went, w/someone other than HIM in mind, that would be fine- As opposed to acting like you are "trying" or pursuing. Be upbeat about it, but without any expectations. (After all, you are doing this for someone OTHER than your h,
as far as he knows...)
If you are on WW, is it b/c of a weight gain? Good for you losing the weight!
I find that a lot of men say nothing about weight gain to their wives, but seethe with resentment about it. My sister got quite heavy
after her marriage, and she was blindsided when her h left her for OW. He admitted, when pressed, that he could "not stand her weight gain"
and
yet he had never said a word about it, their whole 13 year marriage. Until he said he wanted out and was done.
She lost 80lbs after he left her. He married OW, and she gained it all back...
I worry about the health aspects too. And I know she does not feel very attractive.
When I don't feel attractive, I lose a lot of my libido.
So I say go all out for it. Wear a new perfume too, something different but that YOU really like.
As for "THE bay leaf incident", okay so he's irritable and crtical. Yes That was silly. But to HIM, maybe it symbolized that you did not care about his preferences.
I am not able to eat spicy food and never have been. Lately my h has taken up cooking, with very mixed results. Anyhow... when my h cooks and puts cayenne pepper in it, it sort of annoys me b/c I have to wonder whether he doesn't care at all (which is not the case) OR
he wants to manipulate what I'm eating...or he just never paid attention before b/c he never cooked. Point is,
maybe your h saw it as symbolic and since acts are HIS love Language, it felt like a tiny slap.
As for safe topics, my father was also in a career which he could not discuss. But he was well educated and loved to hold forth on various topics including theology, current events,
and There are GOP primaries, state elections, ballots, & other current events you may bring up. Read up on it and are there
TV shows he likes? Movies?
Can you attend a show or a play or an athletic event together?
You said he coaches wrestling. (So did my h and our son did very well in it).
Do you go to the matches? Enjoy them? Are your sons involved? You can rent wrestling movies too, and as boring as that may sound to you, my h and our son watched for hours before a tournament. Those are pretty safe topics, I'd think.
we'll all brain storm some more.
Try to become the woman he fell in love with--who were you like before marriage when you first met?
Become that woman, a woman only a fool would leave.
No matter what, you will be a better person for all this.
That counts.
I think this is my sitch: "But some (WAW) have suffered for a long time with some pretty selfish LBSers. Then finally, unnoticed by the LBSer, the WAS just runs out of steam and lets go..."
posted by Antlers in another thread
the reason I said that was b/c I saw my MLCer h as being so selfish for a long time...and when I finally snapped and ran out of steam,
I became the WAS in effect, ...and he became the lbser...go figure
Glad to have the correct attribution for the quote.
25 thanks so much for your comments and advice. You've helped me over these months many times, on my thread and others'.
So in a way, isn't it reasonable to make an effort to keep it up?
Besides, it could be seen as an "act of service", which is your h's LL right?
That's a new way of looking at it, and could help me. I'll try to internalize this as a strong act, not a submissive one, to try to look attractive.
Once years ago we were chatting late at night and H said "If you got fat I wouldn't divorce you, but I probably would not have sex with you." This didn't turn into a conversation, but I found it a hurtful and offensive comment. I felt a different kind of love for him, which I expected would outlast his inevitable baldness, spare tire, wrinkles, grumpiness...etc. I felt sorry for myself that I hadn't chosen a man who felt that way about me. Not as an obvious direct result but later I joined WW FOR ME. I have an addictive personality and was finding myself struggling with out of control eating and emotional eating. I was getting fat (even just a pound a year becomes fat over 20 years) and exercise wasn't helping. I lost 13 pounds to goal and took on WW as a permanent lifestyle - I cook better and more often, emphasize vegetables and whole foods, encourage smart food choices with my kids. I was at a plateau 4 pounds over goal weight for the past year, but after the bomb weight was just melting off me and I was right at goal. From that point I'm now up about 10 pounds -yikes- but I look in the mirror for 1.5 hours at hot yoga and think I look fit, although I don't have a completely flat stomach. That's my bane - two kids and it's never been the same. One of my hangups is that I thrive on words of affirmation and H was completely uninterested in and unsupportive of my WW efforts. My 180 since June is I do not look to him for this, do not pester him for it, and just know that I'm doing great.
Maybe I'm shallow but my h is in excellent physical shape, for a man at any age. He ran a marathon, lifts weights, weighs what he weighed in college and looks FINE...So I am grateful that my h is in good shape.
Food for thought. I like to think that's shallow, but if I'm being honest, I would not like it if my H had let himself go. I should let him know I like how he looks.
Since your h made the comment about attraction, or not feeling it, then it obviousy matters to him so, why not do your best?
I can't argue with that.
She lost 80lbs after he left her. He married OW, and she gained it all back...
I feel very strongly about not making important life changes for H. When we were dating I was a smoker, he was not, and wouldn't have stayed with me longterm if I continued, but he never asked me to quit. I quit because that wasn't who I wanted to be, and I did it for myself. That way if we broke up or he got mad I wouldn't have that as a reason to start again. I feel the same about my other DB changes.
As for "THE bay leaf incident", okay so he's irritable and crtical. Yes That was silly. But to HIM, maybe it symbolized that you did not care about his preferences.
I hear that loud and clear now.
As for safe topics, my father was also in a career which he could not discuss. But he was well educated and loved to hold forth on various topics including theology, current events, and There are GOP primaries, state elections, ballots, & other current events you may bring up. Read up on it and are there TV shows he likes? Movies?
Thank you for the ideas. I tend to wallow in what I can't have (a normal conversation about work) and forget the simple things I could have. I'll try that.
In my pre-bomb codependent state I had trouble talking to him because he would often shut me down with a sarcastic comment, and I would feel stupid (I'm not) or even stutter trying to come up with words he wouldn't find fault with. This isn't how we started out but it became a habit over years. I'm shy about telling a story because I think linearly and he gets annoyed if I don't get right to the point or use too many pronouns or something. I would then feel upset and self-conscious.
Now that I'm more enlightened I can practice letting that stuff bounce off and not taking on his emotions. These things make him sound horrible, but just like me he has developed habits over years and it's not who he used to be, and justifiable resentment probably led to a lot of it. So anyway, 25, I will look around for neutral topics to discuss.
Another tangent - I love NPR's This American Life and keep a dozen episodes on my ipod. The stories are fascinating. I used to share the best ones with my H and kids and it got to be a joke with them where they'd try to top it with a ridiculous made-up story about a shoe company started by a man with two left feet. It would crack me up but also hinders my search for acceptable subject matter. You really have to have a thick skin for being teased around my house.
You said he coaches wrestling. (So did my h and our son did very well in it).
Wrestling was integral to my H's life from age 7 through college and some of his lifelong friends were his teammates. He was a workhorse, dedicated, just did what it took to be great - undefeated through high school and Ivy League on athletic financial aid. (Another case of being perfect, which I think my S's and I find it difficult to compete with or be compared to.) S13 took it up at age 5 or 6 and was awesome for a 5 or 6 year old, rookie of the year, but after a couple of years didn't want to do it anymore. He would cry - hard - when he lost and he would get really mad and upset in the matches (H never bugged him about crying, said if you don't cry you weren't trying hard enough, but BIL teased him about crying still when S was older and MIL was critical about it). S11 was the cut up at practice who never paid attention, at age 4-5, hated wrestling, and hated the calisthenics and refused to do the tournaments at all. H took it in stride and never pushed them, and I wondered if that was a big disappointment to him, but he never said anything about it. I was really proud of him for that. This year he decided to coach without any kids on the team. (But I do feel in general that the kids and I are a big disappointment to him and that's why he wants to leave.)
Try to become the woman he fell in love with--who were you like before marriage when you first met?
I was cute, cheerful, smart, sarcastic, adventurous, athletic, strong and independent, hard-working. Not very domestic, sometimes clumsy. Excited to be out in the world. Adored H.
No matter what, you will be a better person for all this. That counts.
I know that, I really do. I just don't want to let an opportunity to keep our family intact slip through my hands out of fear, that I'll be rejected again, that I'll look foolish, that it's outside my comfort zone. I'm doing a lot of good things but not enough of the uncomfortable things. And I'm still stumped about why I'm not more naturally giving.
I think this is my sitch: "But some (WAW) have suffered for a long time with some pretty selfish LBSers. Then finally, unnoticed by the LBSer, the WAS just runs out of steam and lets go..."
posted by Antlers in another thread
the reason I said that was b/c I saw my MLCer h as being so selfish for a long time...and when I finally snapped and ran out of steam,
I became the WAS in effect, ...and he became the lbser...go figure
Glad to have the correct attribution for the quote.
I hit the submit button before I was ready...I had put quotation marks on the quote because I was gonna put 25's name after the quote, and when I immediately tried to edit the post and fix it, it wouldn't let me! Sorry.
Hi Advina! I wrote this earlier but then my computer decided to reboot so hopefully this comes out the way I intended.
"Another tangent - I love NPR's This American Life and keep a dozen episodes on my ipod. The stories are fascinating. I used to share the best ones with my H and kids and it got to be a joke with them where they'd try to top it with a ridiculous made-up story about a shoe company started by a man with two left feet. It would crack me up but also hinders my search for acceptable subject matter. You really have to have a thick skin for being teased around my house."What you describe above is what would be considered an endearing quality. You have created memories with your family whether you realize it or not.
Whenever I tell a story about something that excites me I usually get pretty animated. I know that everyone listening to me is probably thinking oh boy, here we go, another crazy story by 2thepoint, fasten your seatbelts folks, it's gonna be a doosey! But you know what, I don't care. It is part of who I am. It's how I relate to people. So what if they're judging me. That's their problem, not mine! Now sit back, relax and enjoy the show, dammit!
So when you say sharing these stories with your family and the reaction you would get makes you laugh, that is not a bad thing. Bring that laughter back into your life!
"I was cute, cheerful, smart, sarcastic, adventurous, athletic, strong and independent, hard-working. Not very domestic, sometimes clumsy. Excited to be out in the world." You still are. These are all great qualities. That old you is still in there somewhere and it's time to find a way of bringing those qualities back out to the forefront, but in a way that is helpful.
Remember what MWD says - "start with a beginners mind".
That is so nice 2thepoint. Thank you.
Hey, I need an attitude adjustment.
My big sis, who's been a confidante since she was divorced about 10 years ago, texted me tonight, "is H going to be home for xmas?" to which I said "yes he'll get home around 5pm on xmas." She said "you must be so excited!"
huh?
I almost texted her back, huh? More like pissed that he's leaving the week before xmas and almost missing the whole day...or how about wary of what it'll be like when he comes home. Will he ignore me? Will we hug, will it be awkward? Excited was not a word that I would have thought of.
And why not? If I could erase all the past and have just a guy who I love, going somewhere exciting, and getting home just in time for a big family celebration with good food and drink, and presents, and the kids who have missed him will be happy to see him, and the dog will wriggle around his knees...I could say that's exciting.
I still think she made a mistake (perhaps she thinks he already left for the year away?) but it's a great thought exercise.
I think this is my sitch: "But some (WAW) have suffered for a long time with some pretty selfish LBSers. Then finally, unnoticed by the LBSer, the WAS just runs out of steam and lets go..."
posted by Antlers in another thread
the reason I said that was b/c I saw my MLCer h as being so selfish for a long time...and when I finally snapped and ran out of steam,
I became the WAS in effect, ...and he became the lbser...go figure
Glad to have the correct attribution for the quote.
I hit the submit button before I was ready...I had put quotation marks on the quote because I was gonna put 25's name after the quote, and when I immediately tried to edit the post and fix it, it wouldn't let me! Sorry.
guys...this attribution thing^^^ is not a problem for me. I just meant to explain it b/c I thought it was partially being misunderstood...
fwiw
That is so nice 2thepoint. Thank you.
Hey, I need an attitude adjustment.
My big sis, who's been a confidante since she was divorced about 10 years ago, texted me tonight, "is H going to be home for xmas?" to which I said "yes he'll get home around 5pm on xmas." She said "you must be so excited!"
huh?
I almost texted her back, huh? More like pissed that he's leaving the week before xmas and almost missing the whole day...or how about wary of what it'll be like when he comes home. Will he ignore me? Will we hug, will it be awkward? Excited was not a word that I would have thought of.
And why not? If I could erase all the past and have just a guy who I love, going somewhere exciting, and getting home just in time for a big family celebration with good food and drink, and presents, and the kids who have missed him will be happy to see him, and the dog will wriggle around his knees...I could say that's exciting.
ahhh but this^^^ is where you are mistaken...INSTEAD - what would happen if you welcomed your h home with open arms, not closed ones, and a warm loving house and embrace?
let the boys run up to him and say "Yay, dad's home!"
If he feels like he is in the dog house, even when he deserves to be,
it won't make him want to rush home.
So the closed arms and punitive measures, no matter how well deserved you believe them to be
are not working! Don't do what does not work. Try something new.
I still think she made a mistake (perhaps she thinks he already left for the year away?) but it's a great thought exercise.
But 25 my arms aren't closed by my choice, and I'm not being punitive. Tell me if I'm fooling myself, because it won't be the first time I've been called out on a misperception here.
H won't come near me or make eye contact. He sleeps on the far edge of our bed, with pillows piled up in the middle. His nonverbal behavior is all about not giving me any expectations that he's changing his mind.
There are probably women who could brush right past that exterior and offer a warm hug and a kiss.
I'm kind of an emotional chameleon. If someone backs off, I back off. If they come in for a kiss, I come in to meet them. When S13 is silent and distant, I pull back too - I'm there for him but I'm not imposing myself on him. My feelings and behavior tend to mirror what I perceive. This is something I'd like to change so I could put myself out there no matter what I'm getting in feedback. I think I fear rejection.
Maybe your sisters sentiments are true. Maybe you should cheer for what you have which is a H home at Christmas, late Christmas but still home.
Its gotta be hard having him not make eye contact, piling the pillows in the middle of the bed but I just think he is just acting like a teenager. He is shouting "I hate you Mom, You ruined my life" I think you have to continue to listen and affirm he feelings. Agree with him that you DID stink as a wife but just keep on keeping on making changes.
Dont try to hug him if he doesnt want to be hugged, one day he will want to hug you. You must believe that you can turn this around.
Keep looking good. I would double down on the looking good aspect and get a new haircut and color. Train for a 1/2 marathon or a bike ride since your H is so into athletics.
Fearing rejection is normal, recognize that you fear it and move forward. Its gonna take time but you have already done so much. I believe he would have moved out already if not for your DBing.
Hi Bklyn!
I'm making a turnaround from my negative point of view. I asked H some neutral questions about traveling on Xmas and I feel better now. I don't believe he's trying to avoid the holiday, he actually had to go to some effort to get an early flight to be home by supper, and he is going to home on Xmas so that's good. And he's been thinking ahead about the kids' presents. He does care, I was over-dramatizing it in my head and now I'm not.
25, I took your idea to my IC/MC session today. Why am I such a chameleon with hugs and touches, why do I pull back, why such fear of a negative response. How do I push through that to give a hug if I want to? How might H respond and what if he doesn't want a hug? We talked all around this from lots of angles.
My family growing up was not emotionally demonstrative. It's possible that touch is even my primary LL. I have something shut away that I can keep a stiff upper lip but sometimes comes out in tears that I don't understand. I'm starting to believe that when something triggers a thought of a need that hasn't been met for me, touch, words, affection, emotion pours out and I don't even know why.
Over the years H went from very touchy and affectionate to less and less and none, still expecting to ML but refusing anything I asked for in terms of nice touch or compliments, even to the point of ridiculing my need, or saying you gotta take the good with the bad. Or saying you should have married a gay guy, only they really do the things you want. Ha ha, like a joke. He wasn't mean about it, just jokey, but never doing what I asked for. Apparently touch is a really deep emotional need that I have just suppressed when it wasn't met, as a child and as a wife. It came out instead in quiet passive aggression that led to resentment of his own. In my future life, I will be a different person, I will touch and hug and say I love you, and ask for what I need in the context of the 5LL. Instead of bitching about what I don't like, I can say, look here is what makes me feel good. Do you want me to feel good? Why not? and I might make decisions on whether to stay in a relationship based on this understanding.
The fear of rejection is pretty deep too. I've always felt awkward trying to read cues, felt more in my head than my body. Resisted hugs from others, or accepted them reluctantly, unless they were specifically leading to sexual intimacy. I had physical affection very confused with sex. But I can put the past in the past and just try to break out of my shell with my new understanding of myself.
So we talked about hugging H warmly when he gets home. I imagined just doing it, when he walks in Xmas night, with the party and his family all around. T and I talked about the need to not impose ourself physically when that is unwanted - you have to read signals or ask permission. It also seemed like grandstanding to do it where he couldn't reject me - in front of his family on Xmas. I decided it would be best to go get him at the airport, bring him home, and pause outside the door and tell him, "H, I would really like to welcome you home with a hug and a kiss on the cheek. Would that be OK?" and give him the chance to say if it would make him feel uncomfortable, in private all by ourselves. As for fear of rejection? Well, T and I agreed, I've already been rejected. What more can he do than say he will never be attracted to me or ML with me again? That's pretty much the ultimate rejection. Saying no to a hug on Xmas is a drop in that bucket, but the possibility that he might say yes is there. It's worth the risk.
Might it be pursuing? Well. Our state law requires a year of separation. We've done it his way for 6 months and all the small resentments, criticism, crying, and fighting have been gone. Big and small changes have happened. Things are going well. But if another 6 months go by and we haven't even touched hands, I think we're done. I need to start showing him that there's a different woman living in our house, and this one gives hugs when she feels loving. This one doesn't withhold out of fear of rejection. This is the one he'll be walking away from if he goes.
I love my T, she is so helpful. Even when H doesn't show up for MC, I get so much out of every single visit. I want to start trying to think more like she's teaching me to think, in between visits.
So, re looking good and 180s. Beyond hair and makeup, clothing and exercise, I'm wondering about cosmetic surgery. That is a very extreme 180 for me to even consider this. I'm still opposed to breast augmentation, no offense to those of you who do that, but it's a really big deal to me not to do that. But a stomach to me is a really sexy part, and my two babies made mine, well, wrinkly. I'm thinking of a tummy tuck. It would change a big hangup I have about feeling sexy and acting sexy. I have no idea how I could ever afford one. I'm also thinking about botox for a couple of frown lines that have taken a hold of my face. These things might make me feel prettier and help me get out of my shell. I don't know, still feel very torn about spending money on something like this. Hmmmm. Maybe I could begin a discussion with H about my feeling about my shape and my growing interest in doing something about it - see what he thinks about the money. Would be interesting to know what his thoughts are.
Dont have much time but two things in your post compelled me to write.
"Things are going well. But if another 6 months go by and we haven't even touched hands, I think we're done. I need to start showing him that there's a different woman living in our house, and this one gives hugs when she feels loving. This one doesn't withhold out of fear of rejection. This is the one he'll be walking away from if he goes."
I think its really really important to take chances and try things out in order to move forward. Right now you are treading water which is fine - its better then drowning which is what we were doing to ourselves before DB - but we need to try swimming. I totally agree that you need to put the new you out there in order for him to see it. If you dont make any moves he will not see the changes you have made. If he rejects the hug brush it off and move on, maybe your timing was too soon. Obviously dont push the hug if he is not into it - but I think where you are now its worth a try.
Re: Cosmetic Surgery
I am really not one to push this kind of thing and am also against breast implants but I think a little botox right now is not a bad idea. I think you should do it without telling H. Dont know if you can get that kind of money together without him knowing. I dont think it should be a secret, but I dont think you need to announce it. I am thinking of doing it myself. I dont think I NEED it but who needs it anyway, I think it will brighten up my face and help me look happy.
My H didnt know for years that I colored my hair. I knew he loved my blond hair and at one time it was my natural color. In some ways the beauty of my hair diminished ever so slightly when he knew I colored it. I didnt keep it a secret I just didnt mention it, I totally think you should consider doing the same with the Botox (I am seriously thinking about it too)
As for the tummy tuck - I think you should wait till you and your H are more back on track and then talk about it with him. I think discussing cosmetic surgery is not mysterious and not sexy so I think you should not mention it until you have begun piecing. (But what do i know)
I switched IC's again (3rd try) and finally found one that seems really great. He's authored multiple relationship books and used to have a recurring TV slot on a news show, so he seems to have great credentials in the area of relationships.
I don't know if this will help or not Adinva, but I've been having a hard time understanding (as you know) what's going on with my W's behavior.
This IC explained to me that my W's issue is that she has a hard time feeling "safe" in a relationship. She's very afraid of failing, and therefore is quick to feel judged and scrutinized. She said that when people feel like that, even making a simple request can send them into a tailspin because (1) they feel badly that they haven't provided it already, (2) they're pretty sure that whatever they do won't be good enough, and (3) they don't like the pressure of trying to live up to some expectation.
He said that when people feel like that, giving them affirmations can actually make them feel worse -- they're looking for covert criticism or that you're hinting they should live up to some standard implied by your compliment.
He said that when they feel really unsafe, they get into a circumstance where they think what they do won't be good enough, so why even try? Then they'll withdraw and just not want to deal with you.
The thing is, you don't have to do anything "to them" to trigger this. You don't have to be overly judgemental or critical, it's just what they're bringing to the table.
I don't know if you see any of this in your relationship -- I know you have identified with some of the themes in mine. It was eye-opening to me so I figured I'd share it.
Next time maybe I'll learn what to do about it....
Accuray
Accuray... I can say that I can completely identify with the thoughts of your IC. His explanation sounds almost identical to much of the "speech" my W gave me. She can't feel safe because of issues she has (abandonment, self-image, abuse). Any little criticism of her or her friends (which are an extension of her I have come to realize) hurts her. And since she can't feel secure she can't connect. Since she can't connect, she can't be a good wife. When she's not a good wife she's a failure. So the solution is to not be a wife.
Thanks for posting this. It's similar to what my C has told me as well, and it really does fit. It also makes it hard to process... ultimately no matter what we do it may not make a difference except help make a better us.
When this all started I really saw myself as very flawed and a terrible husband. While I have my issues, I believe I've come a long way since then. I've had too many people be in awe of the crap I'm putting up with, the care and effort I give to my kids, and what my W is walking away from. So many say to just drop the rope and walk away for good.
WHG, I can't remember, is W from an family of alcohol abuse? And it doesn't really matter because any severe dysfunction, ie abuse, abandonment creates the same response. I have some of the same issues and after H left found a book (I feel like I could open a self-help book store) by Woititz Struggle for Intimacy
I so wish I had found it before and we had been able to read it and talk about it together. It did help me understand my issues with intimacy.
Just my .02.
labug,
I read the "free" chapter on Amazon. My W did not come from an alcoholic family, but had a bipolar mother. I think the unpredictability created some of the same dynamics. What motivated you to deal with your situation? My W doesn't want to mess with it.
Accuray
@labug... yes, during my FIL's manic depressive/suicidal years he drank heavily. And it was the heavy drinking that made the depression worse, and usually his suicidal states came on during heavy drinking episodes.
It's funny you mention issues with intimacy... that's always been one of my W's major issues. She can't be either emotionally or physically close to others. Sexually yes, for short periods. But hand holding, hugging, embracing, just lying quietly with someone... that is not her. I always chalked it up to her family not being the hugging/loving type but I now think it is a symptom of a much deeper and painful dysfunction.
Why did I decide to deal with my issues? I hit rock bottom. I had always thought there was something missing with me, but I come from one of those families that doesn't believe in airing your dirty linen and that depression is for lazy +/or rich people. I was anxious and depressed, spending too much time in my room. When I was out I was judgmental, controlling, angry, unhappy, critical, irritable. (I've heard the walking on eggshells directed at me) I wasn't suicidal but thought about what might happen if I just turned the wheel of the car and went over the side. I was in pain.
And then my H delivered his first "I'm done" and then he said the worst/best thing he could have: "You're just like your mother." I broke. I found a great therapist and today, I'm a very different person. (this is a very abridged version of the story)
The difficulty with intimacy relates to the deep-seated feeling of being rejected if I'm not perfect. In order to keep people from discovering my flaws, I must be in control. Intimacy requires vulnerability and a certain giving up of control. Intimacy is based on sharing and honesty. Those are all scary areas. If I let people close enough, they may see my flaws and reject me so it's much easier to keep them at arms length. If I tell people how I really feel, they might not like me and reject me. I subvert abandonment by pushing people away.
When I read this book, every page spoke to me and helped me see that I could get through this. I could be a better person and hopefully become whole enough that my children will not carry on the legacy.
We're going way far afield on Adinva's thread but Labug, that pretty much describes my W:
"In order to keep people from discovering my flaws, I must be in control. Intimacy requires vulnerability and a certain giving up of control. Intimacy is based on sharing and honesty. Those are all scary areas. If I let people close enough, they may see my flaws and reject me so it's much easier to keep them at arms length. If I tell people how I really feel, they might not like me and reject me. I subvert abandonment by pushing people away."
Yes yes yes. The issue is that my W, although she's identified these things, feels she can "manage" them. She's not going to bottom out so motivating change here is almost counter-productive.
Out of respect to Adinva, my thread is in the SSM forum if you have additional thoughts for me.
Accuray
Hey you all are welcome here in my virtual living room. I had a fire going and was enjoying the conversation!
I got a lot out of it. I find similarities in myself that I was marginally aware of. I took the fear of rejection in another direction though, by kind of refusing to be perfect. Sort of a belligerent, well do you love me now? I've done it since I was a kid. Acting out, challenging people when politeness would have dictated being more "nice." Getting mediocre grades when As could have been easy. In college I went through a beatnik kind of phase. Just a rebel without a cause kind of person. I thought my H was ok with how I was, and I was OK with it. But I know I responded poorly to being compared, even if in my own head, or rated. I wanted to be invisible but also have everyone like me.
IC that I get when H doesn't show up for MC is really helping me. It's enlightening to know I have the power to fix these things that I don't like about myself. I can see change and feel change. But if anyone had told me I should change, I would have rebelled. I had to get here the way I did.
It's enlightening to know I have the power to fix these things that I don't like about myself. I can see change and feel change. But if anyone had told me I should change, I would have rebelled. I had to get here the way I did.
Me too, if H or anyone had listed some of my "things" out I would have done the exact opposite. I am stubborn like that. But finding them on my own and working on them now is enlightening.
I am so thrilled to have the chance to make some of these changes which will only be best for me and anyone in my life.
It's all overreacting to things over which we have no control. Being a good girl and turning a cold shoulder to sexual intimacy and being sexually promiscuous are 2 sides of the same coin.
Love what you've done with the living room, Ad, the rug really ties the room together.
Hello Advina,
Thank you for your comments on Any Chances thread. I felt the same way you did, but, as you stated, when I realized that I have probably been suffering from low grade dep for many many years, and saw what it has done to my relationships throughout the year, it became a no brainer. Thanks for the support!!
I reread my post and to clarify, I didn't mean that anyone was being sexually promiscuous. Hope that makes sense.