Need help to understand the female mind. My wife says it is over, she is done,too little too late, etc. So, after a week of soul searching I have done a complete 180 - doing all the household chores, tending the kids (boys 9 & 13), running all the errands, etc. All the things my wife said I was lacking. I've gone out of my way to do the right thing and am actually feeling pretty good about it and myself. However, my wife says that while she appreciates me really stepping up, all the things I am now doing I should have been doing all along and she is actually angrier at me than she when she dropped the bomb.
I don't understand the additional anger. Anyone able to shed some light on these feelings of her's? I sincerely want to save my marriage. Help!
We talk about not mind reading around here... IOW, we cannot know why your W is saying what she is... but... there are likely a few reasons for this response of her's... Most likely, because she sees it as pursuing... you doing things FOR her, rather than doing them because you want to...
You will need to be honest with yourself and think about whether this is something that you WANT to do and that you will make a consistent change in your life... with or without your W...
She will deny your changes, she'll be angry for the reasons she claims, she will not think the changes are real... or at least, it's likely...
Never do a 180 as a tactic to try to win your spouse back... do things because you are working on becoming a better person than you already were... and do these things if you intend to keep doing them... regardless of whether your W comes back to the M...
Kaffe is right, she will likely see these as temporary gestures motivated by this crisis.
Look hard and deep these are surface symptoms of a greater general objection. That your 180 should address.
Your 180's are for you, to make you a better person in a relationship. If she sees them, believes they are real and permanent changes, that makes maintaining a relationship more attractive, then that is a side benefit.
Please stick with one thread. It make following your journey easier.
doing all the household chores, tending the kids (boys 9 & 13), running all the errands, etc. All the things my wife said I was lacking. I've gone out of my way to do the right thing and am actually feeling pretty good about it and myself.
2thepoint,
Here's how I read your post: You are thinking in extremes. ALL the household chores, ALL the errands, etc. If this is really the case, your doing all of it looks phony to her, because its a pace that you can't possibly keep up with even when things are going well, not to mention after the bomb. Nobody should be doing ALL of anything, would you agree?
Also, I notice you say you are going out of your way to do the right thing. That doesn't sound very genuine. The right thing rgearding household chores and errands and tending to your kids shouldn't be going "out of your way" too much. What is sounds like is you have went to the other extreme of doing all these things too much, and you actually sound tired or like you are looking for some credit when you say it like that. No one's going to give you credit for things you are supposed to do, or at least think you went out of your way to do household chores or tend to your kids.
And I'm not saying this is truly how you're thinking. It is just how your post reads to me. Feel free to disagree if I am off base.
Anyway, let's pretend you had a buddy who constantly did something that perturbed you, say fibbing to you or borrowing small sums of money and never repaying it, or something along those lines. Something not really huge that causes you never to speak to that person again, but just agitates you more and more as it keeps occurring over the years. Finally it gets to the point where you want to go down different roads from this friend, due to this. Your friend, then, valuing your friendship and realizing his error, offers to stop doing whatever it is that is angering you. You know after years of putting up with it that, perhaps this can be achieved, but he won't be able to change just like that, and you doubt that he will. You wonder if he is only going to start paying you back the money now that you won't be going fishing with him anymore or hanging out. Ya know, why couldn't he have just made an effort to pay back the money or be honest with you while you hadn't reached the end of your rope with the dude?
See, it's not just the female mind, it's the human mind. People tend to resent others when they only make positive changes after things have gotten too far gone. Changes need to be made, or at least a strong effort needs to be made, while the relationship is strong.
All that said, you may be able to fix this...but not over a weeks time. You need to slow way down here and just do chores and tend to your kids as it feels appropriate and genuine for you. Not how it occurs to you so that you can save your marriage or impress your wife. Do the right things because they're the right things, not to get your wife back or out of the "bomb" mode.
I wish you well.
First of all, I'll give you a pat on the back for working hard to save your marriage. What you are doing is not easy, so good job.
IMO you need to look deeper. The chores and kid tending are surface things. Why for years have you two been on different pages? Have you been taking her for granted? Not communicating effectively? Speaking love with your words but disrespect with your actions? There are harder things you need to do that will get you to where you're a partner and not either a slacker or a slave. You and she need to learn to communicate her needs AND your needs, and meet in the middle.
There are great books you can read like Five Love Languages to try to understand better where you weren't connecting.
Maybe some counseling sessions with her would help you dig deeper to find out what went wrong and what you need to learn to improve yourself. Don't worry about what she did wrong or needs to fix. She needs to see you changing first, to begin to think there's something worth saving.
Thanks everyone for the feedback. I appreciate it tremendously!
Being new here I didn't understand why my original post didn't show up after several hours which is why I posted again. I get the moderator thing now and guess my 2 posts were pending overnight.
I made a poor choice of words when stating that I was "going out of my way". I actually meant that I was working really hard to do the right thing. Words have meaning, so I need to be more careful!
As is the case with every marriage, there are many things that precipitated my current situation. I bear the brunt of the blame and am trying to make things right for the sake of my marriage, my family and because it is the right thing to do. I was just trying to understand the anger now that I have made a real effort to improve.
I didn't realize that this might be construed as pursuing and I definitely want to avoid that. I do want my wife and my life back so I continue to seek to understand what else I need to do to right this ship. I've signed up for DB counseling and my first session was very helpful. I struggle though with where to go from here. My wife has been going to counseling for some time now and it has helped her to figure out who she is (she has struggled with this since I first met her over 20 years ago). But, it apparently has also helped her to realize rightly or wrongly that I am perhaps the source of many of her problems and that the only solution is that we break apart. She is not interested in going to marriage counseling even though I asked her and also asked why she didn't think we could and should have done so long ago. She doesn't have a good answer for this.
We have never been good at communicating with one another. She has been "communicating" with me but I haven't heard what she has been saying. Most of the time it feels like she is nagging and only interested in finding fault. Part of my problem stems from her lack of support when I am disciplining the children. She often contradicts me in front of the children which absolutely drives me insane. She also has a "friend" who she texts and calls and skypes with everyday which is also driving me batty. This "friend" thing has been going on for over a year now! I do though feel that we could both benefit tremendously from MC but I don't see it in my immediate future.
Regarding my 180; yes it has been mostly superficial things as I described in my original post above. I understand that these are things I should have been doing all along and as I said, I really do feel good about taking ownership. I just need to understand how to make these changes look and feel genuine in her eyes and more importantly, how to demonstrate love with my actions. I guess I've got a lot of learning AND some additional reading to do.
Thanks again everyone for the feedback and encouragement!
When you first start posting your are on moderation so your posts may not show up for a while. Don't be discouraged, keep posting and eventually you won't be. It's just to eliminate trolls, I think.
As for your W's anger, of course I can't speak for her but I think part of her anger could be because it took her saying she was done-and meaning it- for you to step it up.
I also think that doing everything around the house is a bit extreme. You need to ask yourself if you'll enjoy doing that for the rest of your life.
It's about finding balance.
Continue working on you, stop pursuing her and be there for your kids.
Quick update: One of the posters suggested I pick up a copy of the 5 Love Languages, so I did last night and read a few chapters including the one that covers Words of Affirmation. Wow! What an eye opener!
This morning I took one of my sons to the gym with me and then to get us both a haircut, (good bonding time). After I got home I made a point to try a little affirmation exercise with my wife. Without going into specifics, I told my wife that although people don't appreciate the things she does in a certain area, I do and I appreciate her for her dedication and hard work. She seemed to light up when I told her this and that led us into a very pleasant conversation about our children. Small steps I guess! It felt good though! I will keep looking for opportunities to apply words of affirmation when it is appropriate.
Keeping hope alive!!
Shortly after my last update my wife informed me that her long planned business trip had been cancelled. I was sympathetic since I know she had been looking forward to the trip and she doesn't get to travel for business very much. I asked her when her trip was planned and she said it was the week of her birthday (oops! guess I should have know that!). I told her we could celebrate her birthday with the family. Then she tearfully informs me that she wants to go away by herself, that she needs time away. I tell her that I'll support whatever she needs to do but then also say that we should go away together, that part of our problem in our marriage is that we don't do things for us. The conversation then turned to my wife complimenting me on the great effort (helping around the house, etc.) I have been making lately and how much she appreciates it and that she is also starting to feel guilty. I tell her that that is not my goal. I want to change my ways and show her that I can and will continue. She says I should do it for me and the kids. I add it is for her too. It is all a little teary for both of us and the last thing I say is I don't want to pressure you and with that she turned and walked out of the room.
Later, I made dinner for the family which we all enjoyed. My wife however seemed distant and a little sad.
I know I have to stop the pursuing behavior. It is just so damned difficult!!!
Update: I got new ears today! Hearing aids that is. This has been a major sore spot with my wife for quite awhile and so I got the hearing checked and got the aids that will hopefully help me to hear better. I'm really hoping that this effort on top of all the others will demonstrate to my wife that I do want to change for the good and am doing my best to address all the areas that need my focus and attention. Communication is our biggest challenge, even without this present crisis! I hope and pray that we can get to a place where we can talk with each other instead of talking at each other.
Just an FYI... although words have DICTIONARY meaning, they can often have a different perceived meaning to anyone who sees or hears them...
As do actions...
I believe it's very important to understand the difference between you doing something intended to get your W back, you doing something because you want to do it for yourself, and your W's interpretation of why you are doing what you are doing...
If you want to do all the chores in the house, then by all means... do all the chores in the house... just don't do them because you think you will help save your M... do them because you want to become a better man how likes to keep a tidy house... and what ever perception your W might have regarding your new found responsibility... don't worry about it...
But certainly do not stop doing chores because you think that your W will think that you are pursuing...
make sense?
I believe it's very important to understand the difference between you doing something intended to get your W back, you doing something because you want to do it for yourself, and your W's interpretation of why you are doing what you are doing...
If you want to do all the chores in the house, then by all means... do all the chores in the house... just don't do them because you think you will help save your M... do them because you want to become a better man how likes to keep a tidy house... and what ever perception your W might have regarding your new found responsibility... don't worry about it...
But certainly do not stop doing chores because you think that your W will think that you are pursuing...
make sense?
Yes, this makes sense. However, W has felt that she has carried the load too long (I don't necessarily agree but that doesn't matter) and so I must demonstrate that I am capable of doing more. Doing more helps me, helps her and hopefully helps our marriage. It seems to me that if I want to save my marriage I have to start doing the things that make my W happy and stop doing the things that make her angry.
So I keep reading that I need to improve for me, for my kids, etc. but not for my wife. That if my W approves and sees the changes as meaningful and permanent, then this is a side benefit. What I don't understand is at what point do I get to start actively working on saving my marriage? It just all seems so one sided, (i.e. focus on me and let the chips fall where they may). Some validation and willingness to work on my W'S part would be very helpful but people say to not seek out these things. So when does it happen?
Yes, I understand where you are coming from, what you are saying...
For me, I know that even though both my W and I agreed that I would be the SAHD, it was stressful for my W to be the primary bread winner (even though she makes good money) and there was probably an amount of jealousy and resentment of me...
Back to "words have meanings"... it is very important though, that while you do things "for" your W to help out around the house... and we should all pull our weight and do our share within the family unit...
That we don't do something to "make our spouse happy"... rather, do something because it's helpful and you are happy to do it...
Because I can clean the house and make the beds until the cows come home and my W will not be happy because I don't clean nor make the beds to her standards... and lord knows, I tried...
Improving and doing things to become a better husband and father is the important factor... that your W ends up appreciating it and in turn becomes a "better" W because of it and your M improves... that's an awesome side benefit... but should not be an expectation...
The truth is, you become active in saving your marriage simply by becoming a better man and husband...
Here's maybe an example that helps frame it in a way that makes sense...
A person who is truly in MLC does things solely for their own, personal benefit... in the world and society we live in, many people see that and say "wonderful! Take charge of your own happiness!"
What the MLCer doesn't get is, their selfishness is very one sided and has no concern for nor intention of win/win... they do not care about the damage their actions may have, in their goal of finding their happiness (they aren't actually creating their happiness, the are actually trying to find it in the next yard)...
What the LBS in recovery is doing is, creating their own happiness with the intention of benefiting anyone and everyone who is touched by them becoming a better person...
In the end, the WAS or MLCer who returns from the fog, ends up benefiting as well from the changes the LBS makes in themselves and, as their M.O. becomes less selfish, you have actually taken the lead in showing them and enabling them that they too can improve themselves in a way that helps them create their own happiness which in turn creates benefits for others, around them...
That's the long winded way of saying:
Become the best man and husband you can be that only a fool would leave...
Become the best man and husband you can be that only a fool would leave...
Yeah, I like it! Thanks for the advice!
Well the bad news 2TP is that it might not ever happen... it's hard to resign yourself to that but it's the truth. You can't control your W. So she will either see changes or she won't. She'll either care about them or she won't. They'll be enough to make a difference or they won't.
I'm not a SAHD, but I do consider myself the primary caregiver in our house. I cook the meals, do the laundry, clean the house, get the kids after school, help with the homework, do the dishes, do the grocery shopping, pay the bills, manage our computers/IT stuff, and handle the outside stuff too. I also tend to be home more (because of a) my wife's work schedule and b) her social life) so I parent more. My W was in nursing school for two years while our S was 2-4 years old, so for those two years I was almost a single parent. Before this I thought of myself as a pretty darn good guy. Compared to my wife's friends' husbands I was a gem, wasn't I? Heck, those guys gave me crap for making them look bad.
But in the end my W isn't happy. When the bomb came it was really hard. How could I do all this and not be the right guy? I did all this stuff and isn't there a formula says that I get the girl? What did I do wrong?
That forced the introspection. That forced me to look deep inside and see all the areas that I didn't like and that had changed in me since we first met. Yes, I was Mr. Super Helper Dad... but that was stuff I did... not how I was.
If you can look at your sum of life and say you are who you were when you met, and that you're really not in need of work then I would say tell your spouse to change herself to meet you. Of course be ready for that not to happen, but really if any one of us is that good then that's a good strategy.
Myself... I couldn't say that. I know what I think in my heart and head at times, I know what I do when no one is looking, and I know where my demons are kept. I'd recommend No More Mr. Nice Guy. It really helped set me on a course to self-correction and expansion.
Ugh! Brought some freshly laundered clothes up to the room where my W has sequestered herself. She has decided to stay upstairs to work, (she telecommutes) sleep and watch TV. I told her she did not have to stay cooped up in the room all day; that she could work in any other part of the house and I'd stay clear. She started sobbing uncontrollably. I went to hug her and she said don't! I just sat there rubbing her shoulders and told her I was sorry she was hurting so much. She continued to cry. I said I was sorry and left the room.
This is killing us both!!
WHG, you are absolutely right... in the end, the LBS cannot and does not control the WAS... that why there's two things to be sure of without a doubt... NEVER do something with expectations... and... our spouses will decide their own, personal direction...
The reason for become a man only a fool would leave is... because we become better men... as soon as we say we're good enough... then we've lost sight of the point of life...
If we become better men and our W's decide to leave anyhow and prove they are fools... guess what... our next romantic partner becomes the beneficiary of our growth and greatness! And so do we!
One of the things that a WAS / MLCer does is rewrite history... no matter how much we were great men, they quite often only remember the bad stuff and then generalize that ALL stuff, all our history, was bad... we can't sit in resentment thinking that THEY should change because WE ARE ALREADY GREAT!... I have a lot of friends who remember that I was a great husband, father, man... I still am and I'm even more, now...
But I know that I contributed to the destruction of our M... We need to own that stuff rather than doing the projection and fault blaming that our WAS does...
As far as your W's emotional moment 2tp, she needs to work through whatever she is coping with. As tough as it is, if you offer to console her in a depressed moment and she tells you to go away... it's best that you honour that and go away... it hurts... but we need to respect their need for space...
Keep working on yourself and it will get better...
As far as your W's emotional moment 2tp, she needs to work through whatever she is coping with. As tough as it is, if you offer to console her in a depressed moment and she tells you to go away... it's best that you honour that and go away... it hurts... but we need to respect their need for space...
Keep working on yourself and it will get better...
I think what my W is going through is conflict and remorse. Conflict about whether she should stay in the marriage and ditch the friend with whom she is having the EA. Remorse for having already made a series of decisions that have put her family in a complete tail spin. I am hurt and angry. We should be addressing our issues through MC. We should be working on our relationship because 18 years of marriage and 2 great kids kind of makes it worth it. She has stated that I am selfish, yet what she is doing is the definition of selfish!
Praying that tomorrow is a better day,
If you want to know how bad it can get, just look up the tail end of ninelives...
it is tragic and no matter how much they put on a face of how their lives are so great and they seem so emotionally distanced from us, there is no doubt that they feel conflict, guilt, remorse...
some just hide it better than others...
Each of the LBS who come to this site are unique, yet there's so much in common... and in the end, there's two rather polar positions the LBS takes...
1) The LBS feels they are completely at fault and try desperately to change the mind of their WAS
2) The LBS feels their WAS is completely at fault, selfish, and needs to change their wayward ways...
See the common theme...?
The LBS wants the WAS to change...
And that's where every LBS needs to reflect on themselves...
Which one of the above two are you?
We call this journey of the LBS a marathon... because no matter how fast we want it all to go away, get better, our WAS to change... it... just... takes... TIME...
So, in the mean time... we work on ourselves.
Even if you said, "to heck with it. I'm done. She's selfish and will never change. I'm going to file D and get this over with." The reality is, it still doesn't go away...
The sooner an LBS comes to the point where they are over the initial shock, sorrow, and anger and start working on themselves... well... that's when it starts to get better...
to add to what KD said
about LBSers...the theme that runs through ALL of the couples who have reconciled is that the LBSer changes themselves FIRST, whether the WAS does or not.
ultimately both must change,
but sometimes the person posting here is the one needing to work the most.
Sometimes an EA is the result of a man pushing his w into the arms of OM and '
sometimes she saves herself before it does too much damage...but if her h remains the same, the m will die....
Just b/c we LBSers are trying to "save our marriage" doesn't mean we are "right" in all aspects...
I came here consumed by the certainty that I was right and my h was wrong and selfish.
TO this day I think his choices were selfish...
BUT I MADE SELFISH CHOICES TOO that I had not seen before...they were well disguised.
and I learned to forgive, and to be forgiven.
Certainly the person posting here is supposed to be working the most...
condemning your w and calling her selfish is natural to say when you are angry...but it does NOT help you
b/c regardless of what the other issues are or how you got here...
IF RECONCILING is your goal then SHE must come to believe that
marriage to you can be better/different than before, which means
YOU must show her YOU have changed.... so what's new with you? What are you working on in YOU, to show that
marriage to you "from this day forward" could be better for Her?
Will she fear that you won't ever forgive her? Will she fear you will hold it over her head like the Sword of Damacles, or throw it in her face every bad fight?
WIll she be right to fear and believe this^^^??
Even if you CAN forgive her, it won't matter If she does not believe you will. She won't bother trying to come home if it's going to be like climbing Mt Everest.
and if you want to consume yourself with the unfairness of it all...
call Africa.
I don't say all this with a harsh tone or wish to hit you with a 2 x 4, but whenever I see a lot of anger from a man with a poss WAW who is torn up inside
I often find that the anger has to go or the m will end. At least for now, hide it from her b/c I cannot see ANY good coming of it.
Til I know more of your sitch, I'll leave it at that and send you my prayers
and hugs
((( )))
Now that I have had some time to let the shock of the dropped bomb settle in and to get some good advice and encouragement from the fine folks on this site, perhaps it is time to share the background of my situation. So here goes:
H-46; W-48; M-18 yrs; S-13; S-9
In early September I find my wife in our master bedroom closet crying her eyes out. She is there because it is the only place where she could do this in private where the boys couldn't find her. I ask her what she is crying about and she tells me that she is very unhappy! She feels our marriage is failing because of my selfish behavior. We have a long talk and I resolve to try to be a better husband and father. I begin to make immediate changes, spending more time with the kids, less time on the computer, doing more thoughtful things around the house, etc. A week or so goes by and she tells me that she sees the effort I am making but is angry that it has taken me so long to change. She tells me that she is angry and resentful and then drops the bomb that we should separate. I am in complete shock! I didn't realize she was at the point of giving up.
My wife has always been an emotional person. When we first met over 20 years ago she was seeing a therapist for depression or what not. We never really talked about it but I was supportive of her needs. After we married we moved 1/2 way across the country and she stopped seeing the therapist. After a couple of years, we had our first baby, and then shortly thereafter my job had us on the move again, this time to a small city in the south. We are both from large metro areas from opposite sides of the country, so the move to a small southern city was a culture shock for both of us. It was at this time that W started working from home (telecommuting). Initially she found the work to be very isolating and living in a new city with no friends was very problematic for her. Although we lived on a cul-de-sac with very nice neighbors and plenty of kids, W was not happy. She felt judged by the other moms who stayed home and didn't work. The isolation was really wearing on her and I was not particularly happy in my job. After 3 years and a second baby, I got a different job that brought us back to the same state from which we had moved but to a different city. Again, no friends and W still doing the telecommuting although she now enjoys the freedom and flexibility that telecommuting provides. We get our kids involved with sports and soon make friends and acquaintances.
So now we’ve been here about 10 years. 3 years ago I lost my job, was out of work for 9 months then got a consulting gig that I did for a year but really hated the work and quit that job in search of something more fulfilling. The work I did and the success I achieved in my previous job really defined me as a person. So, when I lost the job, I really felt lost. My W would say I am depressed. I’m not so sure but let’s agree for the sake of argument.
My passion has always been real estate and so with the full support of my W I started to build a business with a former boss who is now a friend and business partner. The pace of the work is much slower than I am accustomed to and the income is sporadic and significantly less than what I was making so that is a bit challenging. Fortunately my W makes good $$ and we get by.
So this is the high level stuff, let’s get down to the nitty gritty:
As I mentioned earlier, W has always been emotional and quite insecure socially. Socially, she has improved as she has gotten older but the emotional stuff never got any better. Seven years ago or so she started taking anti-depressants. The medication seems to help some although it caused her to gain a little weight which she was not happy about and her desire for sex dropped significantly. It also took a long time to find the right medication to effectively address her emotional problems and sexual desires.
In recent years my W has begun to show signs of menopause, huge mood swings, hot flashes, tearful episodes, no sex drive, etc. I tried to be supportive, suggesting she see a doctor and see what could be done. She also began to see a therapist, probably sometime in the last 2-3 years. 2 years ago she asked that I go with her in an effort to work on a problem we were having with our youngest son. Those sessions seemed to help us address that particular issue. After a while I stopped going but she continued because it was helping her with her emotional issues.
After I left my consulting gig W asked me to see the therapist to see if I could find a solution to my own unhappiness. The scowl on my face and burst of anger were creating tension. I went for several months but wasn’t really getting much out of it (mostly superficial stuff) so I stopped going. W continued to see the same therapist who just recently has finally helped her open her eyes to her deep seeded problems (apparently I am the source of much of it).
Meanwhile, for the last year or more my W has been talking daily on the phone with a person with whom she worked with on various projects related to her work. This person apparently has his own set of emotional problems, (broken home, no love life, super smart but very insecure, etc.). On a road trip last year we were passing through the town where this person lives and I agreed to stop and meet for lunch since it is W’s friend and I was trying to be supportive. Now I find out that this friend relationship has shifted in ways that I am not comfortable with and for which I believe is partly responsible for the situation I currently find myself in. A couple of things recently discovered; W talks daily to this person. She recently sent a package to this person and the return address label had a cute pet name as the sender. I didn’t think much of it until I also noticed the same name pop up as the user ID for Skype. So now apparently she is also not just talking to this person on the phone, she is also sharing video conversations with him! In late August, W took a long weekend by herself which I supported. Now I wonder if she had a friend with her. The other day when she learned that a long planned business trip had been cancelled she tearfully told me that she wanted to get away by herself. Geesh, she just had a trip away, now she needs another one?!?! For the record, I never confronted my W about this except last week after we went to counseling together so she could tell me she was done. I told her after the session that I thought her EA was partly driving this. I have not said anything about this since.
So there is the synopsis of what is going on with my W. Here is what is going on with me:
I consider myself to be a good and thoughtful person who doesn’t drink, smoke, do drugs, beat my wife or kids and I have never ever had an affair, emotional or otherwise. I do have my demons though; grew up in a very impoverished family, food insecurities, father did drugs, mother had affairs, was sexually abused for years as a child by a person who went to my church, did lots of drugs until I turned 21, all fun stuff!
Over the years I have worked very hard to make something of myself. I worked very hard to work my way up the corporate ladder, made more $$ than I ever dreamed possible and built a good/safe life for my family. We have a nice home, nice things and really good kids. Where I struggle as I’ve discovered during my soul searching prompted by this crisis, is that I am selfish. When I want something, I work hard until I get it. If I don’t want to do something, I don’t do it! I have pressured my wife into decisions that she would have preferred not to make. If I want to do something, I do it. If I want the family to do something, I press and press until they agree. My wife also feels like I don’t support her emotionally. I have not been 100% present in love, in raising the kids or in general consideration of the family. This manifests itself mostly with my time spent on the computer, (political blogs, news sites, face book, email, etc.). It has become somewhat of an addiction that I have made a great effort to confront in recent weeks.
Perhaps the biggest issue I face as far as my W is concerned is that I don’t respect her and have begun to ignore her. Until the bomb went off and probably for the last year or so I would roll my eyes and sigh heavily when asked to do something. I didn’t even realize I was doing it until I caught myself one day. I also have developed a hearing problem that apparently has really been driving my W batty. She has begged and pleaded with me to have my hearing checked. After the bomb, I did have it checked and was stunned by the results. I now have hearing aids.
As I think about the source of my issues I have come to understand that my selfishness which manifests itself in all aspects of my life and relationship with my W and kids has really been a problem. I have been working really hard on addressing all those selfish behaviors and correcting the things I can correct and doing all the 180 activities I have discussed in previous posts. I am seeking counseling via DB’s coaching and hope this will help. I have told my W that we should go to MC but she is not interested. I asked why she didn’t think we should have done something about this before getting to this point. She has no explanation. Maybe to her mind this is one more way of me trying to get my way again. But in this instance, isn’t it worth it?
So to sum up, here is where I see our issues:
• We don’t communicate well, at all!
• I am selfish
• W is having an EA and possibly a MLC
• I feel physically neglected
• W feels emotionally neglected and disrespected
• I want to keep us together
• W wants to break us apart
What to do? What to do?
You ask, "in this instance, isnt it worth it?"
If you believe it is worth it, and as long as you believe it is worth it, then it is ABSOLUTELY WORTH IT... LBS who don't have an opportunity to understand, never realize it is the LBS that actually runs the show...
The WAS has begun moving on with their lives... even though they may secretly or unconsciously be hoping the LBS picks up the slack and becomes the person they chose to M... it actually ends up being the choice of the LBS to change... or move on... they actually hand us the power stick...
We just wish they would hold on... some do... some don't...
So, awesome list of things to work on, as you describe as OUR issues. Every item of that list can be split into a "mine / hers" category.
Take each item and own the part that YOU can control... and work on it...
Even your W's EA... there is a part of that you do control... as in, becoming a man she is curious about and becomes attracted to and therefore might engage with, more positively...
Yes, the last two are polar his / hers, me / her, yet they could be worked on as two separate items...
Anyhow, "what to do?"
Start moving... start doing... baby steps, focus on you...
It gets easier and it gets better...
K.D. - Thanks for the feedback and encouragement!
Well now I know it is over! W asked to speak with me tonight and informed me that our living arrangements (her upstairs, me down) can't continue. She has made up her mind and it is over! She can't continue to live in what she terms as a glass house under a shroud of secrecy. The despair is killing us both and she needs it to end now.
W has resigned herself to the fact that we are not compatible in any way. That she has slapped on a happy face for too many years and can no longer continue the charade. She is sorry that we didn't seek MC before we got to this point but we need to start making plans for our futures apart from each other.
Her plan is for an amicable D where we limit L involvement to only what is absolutely necessary and continue to share joint responsibility for raising the kids. We need to get the house sold so we can each buy a new house in a less expensive neighborhood, preferably in the same neighborhood. Her hope is that we continue to parent our children together, just not under the same roof. She wants there to be a spirit of cooperation and shared responsibility so that we don't ruin the children. "How we handle this is critical for the children".
We've agreed to begin actively looking for alternate living arrangements and that it will be settled by the end of the month. She is very sorry for doing this but this is what must be done. She has made up her mind and there is no turning back!
I am very scared for our future and am completely devastated! Please pray for me!
Prayers are with you and your W, 2tp...
Now... think long and hard about this...
If it was really over... what purpose would your W have of keeping an A secret from you... when people move on... for real... they don't carry on secret Rs and lives... from anyone...
You sound like you're basing the M being over by your W's choice...
But... let's say your opinion actually mattered, here...
What would YOUR choice be...?
who said YOU have to move out? What's the rush?
oh to ease HER discomfort around awkward moments? What about the kids?
Let her move out...YOU want to work on the marriage. Fight for her.
She may not think she's testing you; she may well believe she is "done"...but the fact is,
you can't give up so easily. She's been neglected so long (per your description) and has felt so alienated from you and so depressed in the marriage
that she does not believe YOU or the marriage can get better.
so 2tp you ask us, "what to do?"
I say PROVE HER WRONG...by changing YOU...and
keeping those changes going, consistently, over time...
b/c once YOU change, then the marriage (a r made up of 2 individuals) has to change by definition.
What are your 180s again? And the GAL?
Stay on track. Don't veer off course. You can "resign yourself" to her choice but not help her with it.
Make sense?
Let me echo 25's comments... they're spot on. There is absolutely no reason you have to move out. None. Just because she says you have to? She's not your employer or your boss, she's your partner. She can either leave or put up with it, tough beans.
Will it be hard and awkward? Yes. Can you put up with that? Only you can answer that. And, not only would I not move out, I'd insist that you move back upstairs. It's your bed and bedroom too last time I checked. I don't know you sitch 100% so I'm not sure if you have kids, but I personally can't believe the split room thing is good in a house of kids.
I'm pretty new to this myself so take that for what it's worth. My W hasn't asked me to leave or leave the marital bed even. However, in my head that's my absolute line. I can take the cold shoulder, the curt replies, the bad moods, and lack of communication. Whatever, I had a role in getting us here and I'm a big boy, I can take it. But I won't leave the house and I won't leave our bedroom if it comes to that.
The dynamic between my W and I for years has been myself as primary caregiver. I do probably 80% of the parenting. A Friday night? You'd find my wife out and me at home with the kids. On Saturday you could probably wash, rinse, and repeat. This regular occurrence is a symptom of bigger issues in our R. I don't set boundaries, I don't stand up for myself, and I don't have a life.
This Friday I am stepping way outside my comfort zone and going to a happy hour for our church. Won't get home until 10pm or so. Told W about it earlier in the week, but last night she said she was going to the HS football game with a friend and the SS and SD. The unsaid assumption was that I would be home with our S. Told her that I couldn't do that, sorry, have plans. She agreed to take our S too.
That's a 180 and it's forcing her to invest in our R and our family. It's me standing up for myself and me telling her that she needs to take on the parenting role too... I'm done pulling the weight just to please her; especially since in the long run it obviously has failed!
I know at this point your world is spinning, you feel sick to your stomach, and powerless. I get it, I feel that way at least 10 times a day still. But you're not powerless and you're not the victim. You are you and you have your life to live. If living that life means living in the house that you have a right to live in, then do it! Until there is some type of legal dictate that says things have to change, there is no reason they have to.
Let me close on this... has giving in or capitulating to your W through this gotten you anything so far? Did moving downstairs get you closer to her? Did it stave off the "we're done" conversation? Did it thaw her heart or change her mind?
If the answer to that is no... then why give in again? Why simply do what she says? Any reason to think you'll get a different result?
Do what works... but the corollary to that is to stop doing what isn't working.
I had a good conversation with DB coach yesterday. We discussed the pending move and after careful consideration feel that it may be the strongest sign of selflessness (another 180) as opposed to selfishness that I give my W the space she is seeking. It breaks my heart to think that I must leave the home if I ever hope to reconcile. My W has not given any indication of a reconciliation, in fact she now no longer wears her wedding ring, but I remain eternally hopeful. Given that we have 2 young boys, I will still be very much in the picture and as we prepare to sell the house which has been our plan for sometime now, I will have plenty of opportunity to be around my W and kids.
Big test/challenge is coming up this weekend as we are traveling for a wedding and to visit W's family with whom I have a great relationship. I have to be very careful not to get emotional because we both want this to be a good trip, (no one knows of our problems). I also have to resist pursuing behavior as that will only make matters worse.
Please continue to keep me and my family in your prayers as I am comforted by the knowledge that there are caring people out there who recognize the hurt and freely offer their advice and support!
Man I wish I could help, but know that there are some many of us out there living the same thing. What is right in the universe will happen, just let it all ride and be strong! I know, its easier said than done.
I mentioned in a previous post that my W has adopted a pet name for herself that she uses as a login ID for Skype and that I saw the same pet name as a return address on a package she recently sent to the person with whom I believe she is having an EA with. Well today we received a package at the house (some type of fruit gift) addressed to my W's pet name. ARGH!!!!!!!
Tonight we all attended a school function for my oldest son and everyone seemed to have a pleasant enough experience. I noticed my W was wearing her ring again, even though she hadn't been wearing it the past few days, (I'm guessing she was just keeping up appearances). Anyway, while we were waiting for things to get started W mentions that she wanted to get away by herself for a spa weekend in a state famous for their spas. She said that while she was there she would like to visit with good friends of ours. These are friends with whom I'm sure W thinks will drop her from their list of friends if/when we split. As it turns out W's OM friend lives a couple of hours away from this spa location. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if there was a rendezvous planned. It is interesting though that she would also want to meet with our friends. I'm working hard to keep a cool head and not show any emotion or reaction other than full support of her needs.
Confused and frustrated!
Update: Went to attend the wedding of a friend this weekend. Since W's family lives in the area, I took the family with me. We had a nice weekend and the wedding was fun for everyone. I was a little annoyed though when W went to the bathroom during the reception to talk/text her "friend". She had been to the bathroom several times and hadn't taken the phone with her except that one time.
Later that night after everyone is asleep at the in-laws, my youngest comes running into the room in full panic mode because he had had a bad dream. I asked where his mother was since she had been sleeping with the kids in the basement. He said he didn't know. I went downstairs and W comes walking out of the computer room/office. She said she couldn't sleep. It was 3:30 in the friggin morning and she doesn't hear her S panicking looking for her! I discovered later that she had her little netbook with her, the one she uses to Skype/video message. Needless to say, that episode ruined the rest of the weekend for me!
Oh, one last thing; When we were saying our goodbyes to the family, W who is always tearful when she is saying her goodbyes, is sobbing uncontrollably when she is saying goodbye to her mother. To my mind this is because she has not told anyone of her plans for our separation/divorce and she is regretful and ashamed and who knows what else. It is all very strange! All she has to do is say the word and I would gladly work with her to salvage this M of ours. For now, I am on my own. Sigh!
2t
I asked you before but don't recall the answers...
what are Your 180s and GAL activities?
What's your work on YOU? All I'm hearing is about what she is doing to you
but what I need to hear from you is what you are doing for YOU?
ps
when I first saw your timeline, I thought you meant September of last year.
It's THIS past September? Like 6-7 weeks ago? Geez 2t, that's nothing.
You have a long road ahead and if you're exhausted already you really have to read the Div Busting book AGAIN....please
and when you said you "supported her needs" when she was getting treated for depression,
what did you mean, Since you "never talked about it"?
I can't help feel she has not been heard much for a long time. And if the topic was uncomfortable for you, she didn't get heard by you at all.
All i'm saying is
if my h were getting treated by a t for depression, I'd be damn sure to know what the main issues were. I'd have attended with him sometimes too. I'm sure of it.
That would be part of my supporting him.
So dig deeper. Be brave.
I think you're letting your anger decide things for you right now.
My recent posts have really been more of a venting exercise. I actually think that I have been working through the 5 stages of grief: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance.
Initially I was in denial that my W could ever consider ending our 18 year M and subject our children to the challenges ahead. I moved on to bargaining and depression where I started the 180's to please my wife and found myself crying my eyes out like I've never done before. I think I am in the anger phase at the moment. Angry at the injustice of it all. Angry that my W is behaving like she is. Angry at the complete upsetting of our life, etc. Eventually I will get to acceptance. Acceptance not that the marriage is over but that I have a problem that needs to be dealt with and significant work to do if I ever hope to right the ship.
So bare with me folks, I'll get with the program.
Regarding GAL, right now I have been spending more 1-1 time with the kids and working through a DB coach to develop strategies for making myself a better person. I think that when the time comes to move out, I will simply do it without any consult with W. That would be a complete 180 and would send a clear signal that I am in the process of G'ng AL! Also, since W has already taken a long weekend to herself and is planning another, I may just do the same thing!
More to come. I'll continue to post as the situation develops further.
OK folks, I'm having one of those down days and need some advice, please....
I've been working really hard on the 180 stuff and avoiding pursuing, etc. Today my W reminds me that she is taking off next week for a 4 day spa weekend out of state, (I mentioned this in a earlier post). She has been very remote (i.e. keeping to herself, quiet phone conversations with who knows who, only engages if I engage but is usually very pleasant, etc.). I am now at the point where I need to talk to her about our situation. I feel I need some closure on how we got to the point where we are at now. I need to talk to her about future plans, coming holidays, separation, etc. However, I feel like it is pursuing and want to avoid that, but I have to have this discussion! Any suggestions on how best to approach this?
Also, why do I feel like W is doing some of her own DB'ing? She is very mysterious, only engages when I do, seems to be GAL, etc. Is this normal behavior for the WAW or is there such a thing as reverse DB'ing?
OK folks, I'm having one of those down days and need some advice, please....
I've been working really hard on the 180 stuff and avoiding pursuing, etc.
How so? What are the 180s? This is at least the 3rd time you've been asked...
Today my W reminds me that she is taking off next week for a 4 day spa weekend out of state, (I mentioned this in a earlier post).
Who says you cannot do something like this too?
She has been very remote (i.e. keeping to herself, quiet phone conversations with who knows who, only engages if I engage but is usually very pleasant, etc.). I am now at the point where I need to talk to her about our situation. I feel I need some closure on how we got to the point where we are at now.
Wait now...This means after less than 2 months, you want to issue an ultimatum? B/c that's what your insistence on R talk and "some closure" will be.
Um, Okay fine. It's totally at odds with DBing but hey, so?
And unless and only if you are prepared for the most likely answer which will be, good bye, I would suggest you not do that. What's with the "need for closure?" Really? You think we didn't ALL want guarantees that our hard efforts would pay off?
We did. We didn't get them. No one does. Get a grip.
I need to talk to her about future plans, coming holidays, separation, etc. However, I feel like it is pursuing and want to avoid that, but I have to have this discussion! Any suggestions on how best to approach this?
Don't!! Period. You're way way too impatient.
You have shown her nothing new in you and NOT one real change- so why should HER answer change?
Consistency + sufficient time = change she can believe in.
You've given her nothing to believe in.
Good grief....do you read what we write to you? Please do so again.
Also, why do I feel like W is doing some of her own DB'ing?
[color:#CC0000]
B/c she's detached from you, and is in control of her emotions. You are not.
She is very mysterious, only engages when I do, seems to be GAL, etc. Is this normal behavior for the WAW or is there such a thing as reverse DB'ing?
she's healthier acting.
Why not learn from her?
So far you are doing about the opposite of what most WAW's feel is attractive. But you insist on doing it some more. Your need for reassurance long before she's prepared to give it, can only lead one way. Yet you stubbornly insist on heading that direction.
You ignore our advice at your peril.
Geesh "25" I appreciate the input but lighten up a bit, please! You've clearly been doing this for far longer than I; 6300+ posts and 3 years in the wildnerness. I on the other hand was just dealt this crushing blow and am trying my best to deal with it. You make an awful lot of judgments without knowing all of the facts. I could spend all day, every day, detailing my stuff but then I wouldn't be working on the stuff that matters.
You ask about my 180's, yet I've detailed them numerous times throughout this thread, (i.e. W says I wasn't helping enough around the house, so now I do most of the household chores, W says I don't pay enough attention to the kids, so now I spend most of my time with them - sports, school, extracurricular activities - even took them to a hockey game tonight). I also purchased hearing aids since W was annoyed by my hearing impediment. I look for opportunities to provide acts of service to my W such as when she was having a near meltdown at a recent sporting event for my son because she was running out of time and didn't have supplies needed to get the team up and running. I calmly assessed the situation and handled the things for her that were creating the problem. All negative emotion has been removed from my interactions with W. Only positive interactions. These are all 180 and most have been mentioned in previous posts. I get that there is more to do in this area, much more. But, it is a process of discovery that will continue for some time.
When I post about being angry, upset or frustrated about something, it does not mean that I let it show. I post here to vent and to seek guidance.
When I talk about needing to speak to my wife it is because we have not discussed anything lately regarding our living situation, the coming visit of her parents, the disclosure to friends and family and children of our pending separation. We need to talk about these things and how they will be handled and when. I'm not issuing any ultimatums. However I would like to be able to discuss these issues and some of the closure I mentioned would be helpful for me. If not a good idea then I will not bring that up. This is why I post... to get advice, not judgment!
Regarding doing something for myself (i.e. long weekend) I'm actually considering that and that would also be a bit of a 180, especially if i don't provide details.
So there you have it.
Geesh "25" I appreciate the input but lighten up a bit, please! You've clearly been doing this for far longer than I; 6300+ posts and 3 years in the wildnerness.
Then I shall leave you in the good hands of others.
But so you know, My h's mlc was 6 years ago, not 3. It was 4 years ago we began piecing and 3 that our m was restored. That's Not "3 years in the wilderness"...??
Though I take time off, I do return here to pay it forward as I was greatly helped by the advice I received here.
In fact I give this site about half the credit for restoring my m, and my DB coach the other half.
The early days of being here are days I don't really want to recall, but I do remember them, and the help I got. I treasure it as the life line it was and I treasure the people who took the time to post to me.
Though it was Painful as hell, I took the advice I got.
You've been here 2 months? You often don't take the advice.
The guidance I got here made me learn by digging deep into myself, looking inward where the real journey lies... so that I could stop doing things like asking questions that have no good answers, and Not look outward, at my spouse, to determine MY future.
As for the "Situation" you wanted advice about, you simply said "our situation" and gave no other details. Why wouldn't I assume the "situation" means the R? And you asked for suggestions about how to broach it. Yes I "assumed" you were referring to your R. And come to find out, you were. So what did I miss? What did I "Judge?" That her parents are coming? See comments below.
As for the 180s you describe, I was looking for something substantive, which is why I said you need to dig deeper.
For instance, You told us your w was treated for depression for "years" and or in the "early years" of the m. You also said you "never talked about" why your w was treated for depression but you claimed to be "supportive".
I asked you about that seeming contradiction, and you ignored the question, which I think bugged you.
But to me, that question is huge and symptomatic. A wonderful starting point for you to grow from. And that's the type of bravely looking inward that it takes to succeed here, or at least that's what I think.
I on the other hand was just dealt this crushing blow and am trying my best to deal with it. You make an awful lot of judgments without knowing all of the facts. I could spend all day, every day, detailing my stuff but then I wouldn't be working on the stuff that matters.
See above RE: inferences based on your statements. We can only advise based on what you tell us. If we are missing information that's relevant, that's on you. As for "The situation" you wanted advice on, I gave it to you based on the available info. And I stand by it.
You didn't like the advice I gave you (which is not to force another R talk on her)... so I'm "judgemental"? Really? that's Intriguing to me.
Why must there be a character flaw in me? Why can't you just agree to disagree?
Don't worry, I'm not offended (you don't know me, so how could I be?), but maybe you ought to think about whether that question has value for you.
IOW Is that a pattern anywhere else for you?
You ask about my 180's, yet I've detailed them numerous times throughout this thread, (i.e. W says I wasn't helping enough around the house, so now I do most of the household chores, W says I don't pay enough attention to the kids, so now I spend most of my time with them - sports, school, extracurricular activities - even took them to a hockey game tonight).
As I said before, I was looking for more substantive, emotional 180s, and See note re: what I asked you before, which remains unanswered, but I hope not unexplored.
Also is there a Pattern to these 180 behaviors you are changing? Meaning, she said you didn't help with the chores, you didn't pay attention to the kids and you didn't hear or listen to her? Anything strike you about those = a pattern that reflect something on a deeper level? Why she might feel as she does?
I also purchased hearing aids since W was annoyed by my hearing impediment.
I'm glad you did this^^^. But think about the significance of it going on so long and not bothering you before. Not being able to hear your w even if you wanted to, is itself a telling thing. Don't bother getting angry at me or reacting, just process that for your own sake.
I look for opportunities to provide acts of service
this^^^ sounds really nice. Now see in the next breath how you characterize your w...any judgement there? Didn't sound like venting, but rather, how you see her. Just food for thought.
to my W such as when she was having a near meltdown at a recent sporting event for my son because she was running out of time and didn't have supplies needed to get the team up and running. I calmly assessed the situation and handled the things for her that were creating the problem. All negative emotion has been removed from my interactions with W. Only positive interactions.
Great!! That's a truly amazing feat to ever achieve, let alone in such a short time. But if it's ALL positive, why are you so afraid or anxious? Why aren't you feeling calm and reassured?
Sounds like things are great with you two. Seriously. What's the problem if all is well? B/c she seems happier? Why isn't that good?
These are all 180 and most have been mentioned in previous posts. I get that there is more to do in this area, much more. But, it is a process of discovery that will continue for some time.
When I post about being angry, upset or frustrated about something, it does not mean that I let it show. I post here to vent and to seek guidance.
That's understood. And guidance was the goal.
When I talk about needing to speak to my wife it is because we have not discussed anything lately regarding our living situation, the coming visit of her parents, the disclosure to friends and family and children of our pending separation. We need to talk about these things and how they will be handled and when. I'm not issuing any ultimatums.
First, you've only been at this for weeks, so how long can it have been?
But more importantly, The more people who know, the harder it is for HER to retract. The more who know of her pending choices, the more she must explain them (which tends to cement them).
You want to keep the road home, paved and smooth.
If she's not pushing for disclosure, you should be glad. It's a positive.
My advice remains the same. I know limbo is hard; I did it for 2 years. But being rejected or having rejection confirmed, is harder.
And the more you confirm it, the more solidified it gets and it's just harder to turn it around.
However I would like to be able to discuss these issues and some of the closure I mentioned would be helpful for me. If not a good idea then I will not bring that up. This is why I post... to get advice, not judgment!
I'm sorry you feel judged. I gave advice, which was not to broach the topic for the above reasons.
Don't freak out with my next question, instead use it for yourself/situation and learn...
but do you feel "judged" when your wife, or people in general, ask you questions that make you uncomfortable?
When you feel judged, do you react with them as you did w/me here? B/C you insulted me, and if we were friends, I'd have been offended. But that leads me to wondering if you do that with her.
Do you insult or lash out at her when you feel insecure? Do you feel "attacked" when she asks questions that are disquieting or you feel uncomfortable? Then what do you do?
If we ask probing questions that penetrate and we hit the mark, OR make you uncomfortable OR if you repeatedly avoid a question
we find here that's often a good starting point for examination and growth.
I read your whole thread. You sounded desparate and I know that feeling.
I also know that won't help you w/your w.
You did what I and most of us did; repeat yourself. That's not a judgement, it's an observation. So it Seemed the only way to get through to you was a direct approach.
It's not a problem for me to not post to you, but if you want feedback that gets you thinking and growing, do what it takes to let it in so people can give it to you.
How can your w ever tell you difficult things?
Look, as DBers we don't really know the way to "get your spouse back". We don't know what TO DO about that.
We know what TO DO for YOU....(ways to GAL and detach, dig deep to learn, improve, move on and be mysterious and attractive, etc.)
And we know what pushes the WAS away....b/c that's where so many of us have made the same mistakes and seen the same negative results.
And It's in the mistakes that LBSers make where we see so much in common.
Sure The MLCers may have their scripts, but we have ours too.
So we vets come here to help you avoid stepping in the piles we stepped in.
So we go from there.
Regarding doing something for myself (i.e. long weekend) I'm actually considering that and that would also be a bit of a 180, especially if i don't provide details.
So there you have it.
Sounds like a plan. I wish you luck.
Goes Alaskan 05 + Marriage Restored 08 = 3 years in the wilderness
I am curious, 2tp... Is the above post about being "right"...
Or is it about baiting 25 into further dialogue...?
As we often say around here... Where else does that show up in your life...?
AS Kaffe points out, this could be a great opportunity for inward growth 2t, if you'll really look at your response.
Oh and factually, "piecing" means we were living together. Not in the wilderness. He spent one year in a fellowship in this state, away from home, and one year up there alone so I Guess that's "1 year in the wilderness" to you, although Anchorage doesn't qualify as such in the eyes of those living there. Wasn't to me, either.
So your spin on that is oddly negative, as is your entire response to another carefully posted gift to you. I said I wouldn't post to you again, b/c you complained that you felt judged, but then I see this petty reply and I'm puzzled.
What are you doing with your precious time and energy?
KD - my post was neither about being right or baiting. I was responding to 25's question "That's Not "3 years in the wilderness"...??". However, your point about where else this may show up in my life is certainly worthy of further exploration. If I'm being misinterpreted here, I am probably misinterpreted elsewhere. So, thanks for that!
25 - I'm not oppossed to your advice at all. Your last post came across as very negative and judgmental to me just as my post seemed like spin and petty to you.
I'm not up to speed on your situation and so my comment about being "in the wilderness" was simply a way of saying that it looked like from your time line that you were in the divorce/break-up/separation wildnerness for about 3 years. Also, I interpreted your reference to H goes Alaskan as an expression of someone going rogue or something like that. I didn't realize your H actually went to Alaska and certainly didn't intend for my comment about time spent in the wildnerness to mean the wilds of Alaska.
And so, I apparently misinterpret your intentions in your prior posts and you misinterpret mine. Hopefully I have been able to clear the air.
Please don't forget that while you have the wisdom and experience and success of rebuilding your M over a long period of time, I'm brand new to this and still finding my way. I wouldn't be posting here if I wasn't seriously interested in fixing me and my marriage.
Regarding what I'm doing with my time... I am spending the day with the family at the boys soccer games and working on being a great dad for my kids.
2the you are in good hands, trust me. Their 2x4's are gonna help you look deep and deal with all of that ugly stuff that you never knew existed. I know. Hang in there
Thanks Rick!
New 180 today: S13 had an early morning soccer match an hours drive from home. We will typically stop by MD's for a quick breakfast as is my preference. S13 however is a picky eater and will usually forego breakfast regardless. W says we should go to BK instead because they have something on the menu that S13 will eat. BK by the way is 3 miles out of our way from where the soccer game is while MD's is right up the road.
Now, what I would normally do is go to MD's, get what I want and then reluctantly head over to BK, (being completely honest here). Instead, I pass MD's and head for BK so S13 can pick something from the menu. I don't say anything, I just go.
So that is the 180. It's not much I know but I made a conscious decision to ignore my desires in place of someone else's.
Funny thing though, once we got to BK, S13 says he's not hungry! We all laughed. S13 says if you had asked, I would have told you I wasn't hungry.
Little steps....
OMG!!! Major discovery tonight! While I was re-reading some prior posts from "25" I noticed some commentary that I hadn't seen before and realized that I hadn't read 25's entire post. This is what I originally saw/read:
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Geesh "25" I appreciate the input but lighten up a bit, please! You've clearly been doing this for far longer than I; 6300+ posts and 3 years in the wildnerness.
Then I shall leave you in the good hands of others.
But so you know, My h's mlc was 6 years ago, not 3. It was 4 years ago we began piecing and 3 that our m was restored. That's Not "3 years in the wilderness"...??
Though I take time off, I do return here to pay it forward as I was greatly helped by the advice I received here.
In fact I give this site about half the credit for restoring my m, and my DB coach the other half.
The early days of being here are days I don't really want to recall, but I do remember them, and the help I got. I treasure it as the life line it was and I treasure the people who took the time to post to me.
Though it was Painful as hell, I took the advice I got.
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This was all that is viewable in the window within the window unless you use the scroll bar to the right which I didn't notice in that post until just now! When scrolling this is what I missed and it was A LOT!!!:
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You've been here 2 months? You often don't take the advice.
The guidance I got here made me learn by digging deep into myself, looking inward where the real journey lies... so that I could stop doing things like asking questions that have no good answers, and Not look outward, at my spouse, to determine MY future.
As for the "Situation" you wanted advice about, you simply said "our situation" and gave no other details. Why wouldn't I assume the "situation" means the R? And you asked for suggestions about how to broach it. Yes I "assumed" you were referring to your R. And come to find out, you were. So what did I miss? What did I "Judge?" That her parents are coming? See comments below.
As for the 180s you describe, I was looking for something substantive, which is why I said you need to dig deeper.
For instance, You told us your w was treated for depression for "years" and or in the "early years" of the m. You also said you "never talked about" why your w was treated for depression but you claimed to be "supportive".
I asked you about that seeming contradiction, and you ignored the question, which I think bugged you.
But to me, that question is huge and symptomatic. A wonderful starting point for you to grow from. And that's the type of bravely looking inward that it takes to succeed here, or at least that's what I think.
I on the other hand was just dealt this crushing blow and am trying my best to deal with it. You make an awful lot of judgments without knowing all of the facts. I could spend all day, every day, detailing my stuff but then I wouldn't be working on the stuff that matters.
See above RE: inferences based on your statements. We can only advise based on what you tell us. If we are missing information that's relevant, that's on you. As for "The situation" you wanted advice on, I gave it to you based on the available info. And I stand by it.
You didn't like the advice I gave you (which is not to force another R talk on her)... so I'm "judgemental"? Really? that's Intriguing to me.
Why must there be a character flaw in me? Why can't you just agree to disagree?
Don't worry, I'm not offended (you don't know me, so how could I be?), but maybe you ought to think about whether that question has value for you.
IOW Is that a pattern anywhere else for you?
You ask about my 180's, yet I've detailed them numerous times throughout this thread, (i.e. W says I wasn't helping enough around the house, so now I do most of the household chores, W says I don't pay enough attention to the kids, so now I spend most of my time with them - sports, school, extracurricular activities - even took them to a hockey game tonight).
As I said before, I was looking for more substantive, emotional 180s, and See note re: what I asked you before, which remains unanswered, but I hope not unexplored.
Also is there a Pattern to these 180 behaviors you are changing? Meaning, she said you didn't help with the chores, you didn't pay attention to the kids and you didn't hear or listen to her? Anything strike you about those = a pattern that reflect something on a deeper level? Why she might feel as she does?
I also purchased hearing aids since W was annoyed by my hearing impediment.
I'm glad you did this^^^. But think about the significance of it going on so long and not bothering you before. Not being able to hear your w even if you wanted to, is itself a telling thing. Don't bother getting angry at me or reacting, just process that for your own sake.
I look for opportunities to provide acts of service
this^^^ sounds really nice. Now see in the next breath how you characterize your w...any judgement there? Didn't sound like venting, but rather, how you see her. Just food for thought.
to my W such as when she was having a near meltdown at a recent sporting event for my son because she was running out of time and didn't have supplies needed to get the team up and running. I calmly assessed the situation and handled the things for her that were creating the problem. All negative emotion has been removed from my interactions with W. Only positive interactions.
Great!! That's a truly amazing feat to ever achieve, let alone in such a short time. But if it's ALL positive, why are you so afraid or anxious? Why aren't you feeling calm and reassured?
Sounds like things are great with you two. Seriously. What's the problem if all is well? B/c she seems happier? Why isn't that good?
These are all 180 and most have been mentioned in previous posts. I get that there is more to do in this area, much more. But, it is a process of discovery that will continue for some time.
When I post about being angry, upset or frustrated about something, it does not mean that I let it show. I post here to vent and to seek guidance.
That's understood. And guidance was the goal.
When I talk about needing to speak to my wife it is because we have not discussed anything lately regarding our living situation, the coming visit of her parents, the disclosure to friends and family and children of our pending separation. We need to talk about these things and how they will be handled and when. I'm not issuing any ultimatums.
First, you've only been at this for weeks, so how long can it have been?
But more importantly, The more people who know, the harder it is for HER to retract. The more who know of her pending choices, the more she must explain them (which tends to cement them).
You want to keep the road home, paved and smooth.
If she's not pushing for disclosure, you should be glad. It's a positive.
My advice remains the same. I know limbo is hard; I did it for 2 years. But being rejected or having rejection confirmed, is harder.
And the more you confirm it, the more solidified it gets and it's just harder to turn it around.
However I would like to be able to discuss these issues and some of the closure I mentioned would be helpful for me. If not a good idea then I will not bring that up. This is why I post... to get advice, not judgment!
I'm sorry you feel judged. I gave advice, which was not to broach the topic for the above reasons.
Don't freak out with my next question, instead use it for yourself/situation and learn...
but do you feel "judged" when your wife, or people in general, ask you questions that make you uncomfortable?
When you feel judged, do you react with them as you did w/me here? B/C you insulted me, and if we were friends, I'd have been offended. But that leads me to wondering if you do that with her.
Do you insult or lash out at her when you feel insecure? Do you feel "attacked" when she asks questions that are disquieting or you feel uncomfortable? Then what do you do?
If we ask probing questions that penetrate and we hit the mark, OR make you uncomfortable OR if you repeatedly avoid a question
we find here that's often a good starting point for examination and growth.
I read your whole thread. You sounded desparate and I know that feeling.
I also know that won't help you w/your w.
You did what I and most of us did; repeat yourself. That's not a judgement, it's an observation. So it Seemed the only way to get through to you was a direct approach.
It's not a problem for me to not post to you, but if you want feedback that gets you thinking and growing, do what it takes to let it in so people can give it to you.
How can your w ever tell you difficult things?
Look, as DBers we don't really know the way to "get your spouse back". We don't know what TO DO about that.
We know what TO DO for YOU....(ways to GAL and detach, dig deep to learn, improve, move on and be mysterious and attractive, etc.)
And we know what pushes the WAS away....b/c that's where so many of us have made the same mistakes and seen the same negative results.
And It's in the mistakes that LBSers make where we see so much in common.
Sure The MLCers may have their scripts, but we have ours too.
So we vets come here to help you avoid stepping in the piles we stepped in.
So we go from there.
Regarding doing something for myself (i.e. long weekend) I'm actually considering that and that would also be a bit of a 180, especially if i don't provide details.
So there you have it.
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25 there is some really good stuff in here and I'm sorry for not noticing earlier. I'm going to have to re-read previous posts to see if there is any other stuff I may have missed.
I will think about these points which you have raised and respond soon. I'm a little tired tonight (all day in the sun).
Thanks for the thought provoking posts!
In regards to the long weekend for yourself... I know I just bought a ticket to a show in a city about two hours from here. I had really hoped to go to the show with a friend from that city, but he's gone travelling for business. So it came down to go by myself or not go.
I have to admit it felt weird deciding to go solo... but what the heck, I could stay at home and be solo too... at least if I go I get to see a humorist I've always wanted to see and get to laugh.
So yeah... it'll be weird, but fun. Do it for yourself. Live, have fun. I know for me it will take a while to build a GAL bullpen, so for now, at least at times, I'm the only starting pitcher I have. I should say a female friend volunteered to go with me, but that just seemed to beg for trouble. Especially since she's single, hits on me frequently, and is extremely attractive. Didn't really want to invite that drama into my life right now
Been thinking about things, comments, observations, etc. Here is what I’ve got so far in response to 25’s thread from the other day:
“25” - As for the 180s you describe, I was looking for something substantive, which is why I said you need to dig deeper.
For instance, You told us your w was treated for depression for "years" and or in the "early years" of the m. You also said you "never talked about" why your w was treated for depression but you claimed to be "supportive".
I asked you about that seeming contradiction, and you ignored the question, which I think bugged you.
But to me, that question is huge and symptomatic. A wonderful starting point for you to grow from. And that's the type of bravely looking inward that it takes to succeed here, or at least that's what I think.
“TTP” - My W was seeing a T when we first met. It was not necessarily for depression so much as it was to work on issues relating to social phobias, self esteem, etc. After we married we moved out of state and she stopped seeing a T. Within the last 7 years W’s primary care physician prescribed AD’s to help her deal better with the stress of holding down a F/T job and 2 very active boys. For several of these years, she was trying different dosages and different kinds of AD’s until she found the one that worked best for her. The ones that didn’t work really messed her up emotionally and I was glad when she finally found something that seemed to work.
When I say I tried to be supportive, I did my best to show concern, ask questions, listen to responses, offer help in any way, check in frequently to see how sessions were going, etc. As I stated above, W said she felt sessions were going well and she felt better after each session. No further detail was provided. However, a few months ago after sensing added tension and distance I asked specifically what she talked about with her T and she told me that that was a private matter between her and the T. Message delivered loud and clear… butt out!
Upon further reflection and as was suggested previously, I should have been more attentive and certainly more assertive, attend sessions with my W and seek greater understanding of the troubles she was facing. I think her emotional state had become so routine throughout our married life that I started to ignore it, not realizing that things were deteriorating. Lots of regrets! Maybe opportunity?
“25” - Why can't you just agree to disagree?
Don't worry, I'm not offended (you don't know me, so how could I be?), but maybe you ought to think about whether that question has value for you.
IOW Is that a pattern anywhere else for you?
“2TP” – point well taken – definitely an area to work on
“25” - As I said before, I was looking for more substantive, emotional 180s, and See note re: what I asked you before, which remains unanswered, but I hope not unexplored.
Also is there a Pattern to these 180 behaviors you are changing? Meaning, she said you didn't help with the chores, you didn't pay attention to the kids and you didn't hear or listen to her? Anything strike you about those = a pattern that reflect something on a deeper level? Why she might feel as she does?
“2TP” – Yes, I believe so. I think we both stopped listening to each other. But, also I think that I became despondent over loss of job, feelings of inadequacy about no longer being the bread winner, stuff like that. We’ve also never really resolved what I think is a bit of a power struggle between us. W has never really been interested in household type chores (cooking, cleaning, etc.). She has said on many occasions that she would be content with me staying home and doing the domestic stuff while I would prefer that she do those things. That conflict never got addressed. So, now some of my 180's involve the domestic stuff. I guess I finally gave in. I do feel good about someone finally taking the lead in this area.
“25” - "I look for opportunities to provide acts of service"
this^^^ sounds really nice. Now see in the next breath how you characterize your w...any judgement there? Didn't sound like venting, but rather, how you see her. Just food for thought.
"to my W such as when she was having a near meltdown at a recent sporting event for my son because she was running out of time and didn't have supplies needed to get the team up and running".
“TTP” – I see your point but I’m not sure how I would have described the event any differently. She was frantic, in tears in a public setting, etc. But… I’ve got to dig a little deeper in this area though because this is probably where she feels I haven’t supported her emotionally, although in this particular case I think I did, but generally, not so much.
“25” - "All negative emotion has been removed from my interactions with W. Only positive interactions".
Great!! That's a truly amazing feat to ever achieve, let alone in such a short time. But if it's ALL positive, why are you so afraid or anxious? Why aren't you feeling calm and reassured?
Sounds like things are great with you two. Seriously. What's the problem if all is well? B/c she seems happier? Why isn't that good?
“2TP” – Things are not great. When I say that all negative emotion has been removed from my interactions, I’m talking about keeping the tears in check, no mopeing even though inside I’m in knots, no arguments, etc. While my W may seem happier, even though she probably isn’t, it is because she is detached as I think you put it previously and that makes me very sad and fearful for the future. I’d love to see my W happy, but under different circumstances.
“25” - First, you've only been at this for weeks, so how long can it have been?
But more importantly, The more people who know, the harder it is for HER to retract. The more who know of her pending choices, the more she must explain them (which tends to cement them).
You want to keep the road home, paved and smooth.
If she's not pushing for disclosure, you should be glad. It's a positive.
My advice remains the same. I know limbo is hard; I did it for 2 years. But being rejected or having rejection confirmed, is harder.
And the more you confirm it, the more solidified it gets and it's just harder to turn it around.
“2TP” – This is all very good advice, some of which I hadn’t considered.
“25” - Don't freak out with my next question, instead use it for yourself/situation and learn... but do you feel "judged" when your wife, or people in general, ask you questions that make you uncomfortable?
When you feel judged, do you react with them as you did w/me here? B/C you insulted me, and if we were friends, I'd have been offended. But that leads me to wondering if you do that with her.
Do you insult or lash out at her when you feel insecure? Do you feel "attacked" when she asks questions that are disquieting or you feel uncomfortable? Then what do you do?
“2TP” – Yes, sometimes I feel judged when asked questions that make me uncomfortable. This is another area for me to focus on.
I did not intend to insult you and I’m sorry you felt that way. Your 2x4 was not expected and my nose was a little bloody and out of joint after reading your post that prompted my response.
No, I don’t think I feel attacked when my W asks questions that are disquieting and I don’t think I lash out at her. At least not intentionally. Perhaps though, if you think there maybe something there, there then I will need to probe a little and see what I find.
So that's what I've got for tonight.
There is one other thing that was a bit of an epiphany for me today. I was helping a friend build one of those pre-fab cabinets and had the thing almost completely finished when he asked me if I had used any glue. I told him no because none was included in the packaging and the instructions didn't call for it. He suggested we take it apart and glue it anyway. Well apparently I gave him some kind of look for which he responded "I'm surprised your wife hasn't kicked you out of the house". I said why do you say that and he said that when you don't want to do something, you get "that look".
OUCH!!! Got tackle that one!
A little depressed today. Continued search for apartment and was surprised how sad it makes me feel. Sad for the circumstances that has lead me to this point, sad that I feel like a complete loser, sad that I am moving away from W and kids. Apartment living is going to be a real drag. Maybe that is what it will take for me to get my life into perspective, but it really is a bummer!
W is getting ready for her long spa weekend (4 days) and she seems pretty pumped. Makes me jealous and sad at the same time. Will she be spending time with OM? Will she be having fun while I am in tears?
Spoke with my sister last week to talk about my situation and am disappointed that she hasn't called me to see how I am doing. Maybe that is selfish of me to think that my family should be concerned for my well being.
I know, a lot of self pity here. I just need to put it in writing then out of my head!
I'm feeling anxious today. W continues to make her plans for her spa weekend and is clearly detached from our situation (at least outwardly so), while I am doing my best to keep myself busy and upbeat. I wish I was going with her. Lord knows we could have used the time alone, especially before she dropped the bomb.
I am starting to come to grips with the fact that although I dread the thought of moving out (her request) it is probably the best for both of us - time and distance. I will continue to work on the 180's and hope that I can maximize the effectiveness of detaching myself and GAL and maybe eventually find a solution that brings us back together.
Here's a synopsis of a 180 from yesterday that I hope W noticed and appreciated:
S9 came home from school and I could tell by his behavior that he was tired. My other S13 had a school event last night so I offered to take him (that is a 180 in and of itself but not the one I want to focus on here). Anyway, when we got home S9 was still acting up and beng an all around pain in the neck. I could see my W was getting agitated, (yelling, etc.) so I went over to my S9 and very calmly and almost in a whisper asked him to settle down and that if he didn't he'd have to go to bed early. He started getting sassy and I repeated what I had just said. He eventually calmed down and soon was off to bed without complaint.
In another time I would have likely joined in my W's agitation and shouted at the boy to calm down and forced him to bed which would has escalated the problem. I think how I handled it was best for all of us.
Thoughts anyone?
Hey 2... it sounds like a great 180... both for you and for your S. Did she notice? hard to say. I know I went for about a month with hardcore 180s regarding how I interacted with our kids and never thought anyone noticed. Then the other night during an R talk my W mentioned that she has noticed and appreciates it (though it's not enough to save anything and I'm only doing it to save our M... I don't really mean it... baby steps, baby steps
). She also revealed that our SS told her he really likes how nice and positive I've been lately. So there's hope, but even if she didn't notice this time maybe the next or the next. The key is consistency.
I know that before the bomb I was already sensing a threat to our M and felt overwhelming inadequacy. This made me even angrier and more agitated. But instead of directing that at my W, I directed it at our kids. I can still remember a day this summer where my S5 was just being ungodly difficult and me pulling him out the car and yelling at him. I still feel so horrible about that. It was about there that I hit rock bottom.
The funny thing is, if you can keep this 180 consistent, the kids will notice first. And it will create a huge differentiation between you and your W in their eyes. This morning our S was not listening to my W. This is because she hasn't invested much time in him over the past three years or so. In the past I would've jumped in and saved my W, but I just let her deal. I heard her get angrier and angrier. She threatened, scolded, and threatened to paddle his butt. Finally he complied but then said to her, "Mommy, don't use your yelling voice it hurts my ears. Daddy doesn't use it anymore and I like that."
I made myself quite scarce right after that because I knew it would have my W fuming to be compared like that... but, "from the mouth of babes..." as it were
"Mommy, don't use your yelling voice it hurts my ears. Daddy doesn't use it anymore and I like that."
I made myself quite scarce right after that because I knew it would have my W fuming to be compared like that... but, "from the mouth of babes..." as it were
That is awesome! Baby steps indeed!
Quick post...
Still feeling quite anxious about my W's 4 day spa weekend out of state. The last time she went away was just before the bomb. Now that the bomb has been dropped and I suspect an EA or worse, I can't help thinking about W spending time with someone else. I so want to ask her if she will be meeting someone during her spa trip.
I know, I know, don't do it!!
Meanwhile, yesterday she was out most of the day and felt the need to text me before she left that she would be out most of the day. Hmmmm why was that necessary?
Then this afternoon, she tells me that she has to go out for a little bit and would pick S13 up from school on her way back. Hmmmm, why was that necessary?
I've not been telling her when I leave or where I'm going...and she hasn't asked either.
I'm confused and anxious!
Just wanted you to know I am praying for a favorable outcome for you and your family. Be anxious in nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your request be made known to God. He will never put more on you than you can bear.
Last post tonight...
W seems a little frazzled tonight. As is her habit, she always waits till the last minute to pack and otherwise prepare for her trip.
I'm giving W a ride to the airport early tomorrow morning so we don't have to pay for 4 days of parking. I learn that W is having the hotel/spa shuttle pick her up from the airport since she won't be renting a car and that her plan is to sleep in, relax by the pool, get as massage, manicure, pedicure and do a little shopping. Sounds like a perfect weekend for a woman!
Assuming she has no other plans, I am somewhat comforted by the thought that she will be stationary at/near the hotel and will only be relaxing. She needs this time. Hopefully she will also be reflecting on our R and reconsider her decision. God I hope so!
W mentioned that she may extend her trip a day or two since mutual friends of ours have invited her to stay with them. They know nothing of our R issues and I hope it stays that way since one of the friends happens to be my business partner.
I'm not as anxious as I was earlier in the day. Maybe I'm tired.
Night all!
Very sad day for me. Took my W to the airport so she could go on her spa weekend. Couldn't help myself and did a little snooping and discovered some cards with sentiments such as.... "you deserve all the best that life has to offer....and I hope to be the one to give it to you!! I love you!!" and this... "something sweet for someone sweet! Enjoy!". That surely came with the box of chocolates that was delivered the other day.
As I stated in a prior post, the location of her spa weekend is 2 hours from where her "friend" that I suspected she was having an EA with lives. Now I know whats up this weekend!
I am so upset I am shaking! How do I compete with this? This OM is a complete wreck from what W has told me. Now she wants to be with him?!?!?
God please give me strength!
W is the one having the affair and she wants me to move out?!?!?!
Don't snoop any more at al1! Confirmation. is. enough. I know that when I found out W was beginning PA, I simply knew that the more specifics I learned, the harder it would be to DB.
Detach. Keep doing your work on YOU. OMG it is the hardest thing I've EVER done in my life, but it is the best alternative we have.
I'm so sorry you are in this situation. I am sending you good energies....but also remember ----- and I know how it feels inside ----- the OM is NOT about you, your lack of anything, your actions, inactions, etc.... It is about your W --- and many many times, OM/OW is a step down from the spouse.
Jb caled my attention to the fact that it may have something to do with the WAS self esteem issues. I have found that to make a lot of sense. Hang in there. Keep posting as much as you need to.
There is no requirement to move out at least not until something legal happens...
Now... I'm am certainly not the one to hand out 2x4s for snooping, Lord knows. But, it's an example of why it's not worth it. She was going to do what she was going to do either way, right? So now the only difference is you have a suspicion. And not even one you can confirm.
I snooped, against my better angels, just last weekend. Found a text message that is suspect. Not highly suspect but enough to make me nervous. Now I sit and have to deal with that message, albeit the message was 3 weeks old, versus the other evidence that point to it being nothing. It just creates a rabbit maze in your brain. I've finally had to come to the point of... whatever. I can't do anything directly about it. In my case the OM, if he is that, is also a wreck. My W was telling me about him a few weeks ago how he's drunk most days by 5pm, an artist and musician, but has a dead-end call center job to pay the bills.
The other piece is that she doesn't necessarily want to be with him... she just doesn't want to be with you as it is currently constructed. That's what I keep reminding myself. It's not that she's necessarily looking for a guy who's this mainly, sports playing artist guy. It's that she wants a man in her life who is manly and creative. I know I was that guy once and working to be that guy, but a better version, again.
Helo 2thepoint
Just finished reading your sitch, sure is an emotional rollercoaster, aye?
I agree with the snooping advice given by the others here. I snooped once, about 1 month ago, read a little of her journal that she kept in plain view, and was upset by what she wrote, threw me for a loop for a couple of days. Resolved never to do it again, it just isnt worth it.
If there is om, there is nothing at this point that you can do about it, except continue to work on you and have faith that the person who was attracted to you initially will be even more attracted to the better version of you. My sitch is very similar in that s is going back home and has been seeing/dating an old high school flame. I dont know anything about him, and truthfully, dont want to know anything. My c and just about everyone on this board have commented that affairs/flings with om/ow commonly do not go well or last very long, after all, why is this person involved with someone who is married? What does that say about his character?
I know, and it has been reiterated again and again on this board, that the only people we should be expending energy on worrying about are ourselves, and if we have kids, them also. Everything else is wasted energy. In fact, you dont even know for sure he is seeing this guy this weekend, chances are better than even that she is, but you dont know for sure.
Try to take a deep breath and hang in there, I am literally in the same boat as you, except a little farther along on journey. Continue to lean forward!!
Thanks everyone for the comments and words of support and wisdom. I know I shouldn't have snooped. It is not something I would normally do. Then again, having my heart ripped out of my chest is not something that I am accustomed to either!
I appreciate the notion that the OM is usually a step down from the spouse. In this case I agree. I've met this person and W has told me about his "issues" in the past and he IS a step down. Sure he has the fancy degrees, but he also has trouble dealing with people in work settings, and his past life has been a complete disaster.
It astounds me that my W who is intelligent, kind and caring would subject her family to this kind of upheaval. What must be going through her head? Her parents and brother and sister would be absolutely SHOCKED and saddened to learn of this. It is so out of character for her.
The idea that she one day decided that "she was done" without ever suggesting or agreeing to participate in MC is interesting. Makes me wonder what she has been discussing with her C who supposedly helped her discover herself. Would W have shared that she is having an A with OM? I can't imagine her C would not advise that MC should be seriously considered before moving down the path W has currently chosen. What if C doesn't know of OM and if C learns of this if the advice provided would be different.
I know I shouldn't concern myself with "what if" scenarios but my mind is racing and I need to purge this cr@p out of my system in order to move forward.
2thepoint,
WOW, your sitch is so similar to mine in many respects. Don't know if you have spent any time reading on the MLC Forum, but I have read alot of the stuff, and it helps me understand a little better about what someone in MLC is going through, how their thinking is foggy, they are really suffering(in many ways as much, or more than LBS is(if that is possible!), how everything is right now 100% about them, how there can still be brief glimpses of compassion/reality exhibited by them. It does give me some solace.
Might also suggest that you join a local divorce/sep support group. I a a member of two and they have given me tremenous support and I have met aome great people who are going through the same crap as us. Do a google and look for "Divorece Care" they have chapters all over.
Good luck, have a good day, hang in there.
Thanks for the suggestion Gunny - I'll look into it.
Just got a text from W saying that she has arrived at her destination and that it is beautiful!
Glad to hear things are so rosy case things suk here! /sarc
good that she is still keeping in touch
Yes, but feels like salt added to the wound!
Had a good session with my C this morning. I confirmed his pro marriage focus and reminded him that I was focused on saving my marriage and that I am looking for solutions based actions that will move me in that direction with my immediate goal of getting W and I into MC.
I shared my concerns/revelations about OM and W's spa weekend. I provided him with an update on job search activities, living arrangements of which I am very concerned and my 180's & soul searching.
C reminded me that A's are much like an addiction and that people involved are looking for that next high and are not necessarily thinking rationally about all the things that would otherwise be important. He also reminded me to take care of myself (GAL in other words) and avoid shouldering all the blame for the problems in our R. C also said that the 180's are good but must be real and consistent. Gee, where have I heard that before?
We talked about keeping the road home paved and smooth (thanks 25!) which he likened to "keeping the plane waxed and the runway lights on!"
Anyway, feeling a little better today than yesterday.
Point,
Glad your session with the c went well, I think it is very important to have a c who has a pro marriage viewpoint. I was surprised, and heartened to find out a few weeks back that my c who has been married 31 years actually filed for d in the 8th year of her m, was sep for 1 year, and is now happily married.Boy, did that ever make me feel better!! She believes that recon can take place, but the key is we must give them space and let them work on their issues. Keep feeling good!!
should have specified, she is married to the same guy, never divorced!!
Thanks for the post Gunny! Quick update. Got a text from W today after I relayed to her a message received about a Dr. Appointment next Monday. W informed me that she was not going to stay over a few extra days to be with our mutual friends, after all. She said "just too much going on that is stressing me out". I asked her via text what was stressing her out and she replied "work, pretty much anything and everything. Feel very guilty about spending $ on this trip". I told her to try not to think about it, enjoy your time and we'll manage the $$ situation. Then I asked about the weather, (how's that for a quick getaway?). She replied "Gorgeous!". I said "then it was worth it!" Then some other small talk/text and that was it.
So, I'm concerned abut her stress. I know it is self induced since she pretty much brought it on herself, but I worry nonetheless. I want to comfort her but know that that would be interpreted as pursuit and the last thing I want is to drive her any further away. I hope my words via text didn't cross that line. And I hope that W is using this time away to reflect and possibly reconsider.
Anyone have thoughts on the subject?
hey2,
Thanks for the update. I think all you can do is let her know, that if she needs someone to bounce things off, you are around. I dont think this is pursuit, provided you have always had the type of r where she felt comfortable in confiding in you. Otoh, if you didnt have that type of r, this could be an oppurtunity for you to do a 180.
Keep me posted, have a good weekend.
Quick post: W still away on her 4 day spa weekend. I have had very limited contact with her during this time (few texts here and there). What bothers me though is the fact that W has not called to speak with the boys since she has been gone, (3 full days and no phone call). During one of our brief chats earlier this afternoon I texted her about whether or not she wanted to talk to the boys. She said she would try later but then never called. Seems a little irresponsible to me.
After two winning soccer matches between the 2 boys, we came home, cleaned up a bit then went to she the movie "Courageous". It is a movie about fathers and their responsibility to their children. And although the movie was quite preachy and a little overly dramatic, the movie had a good message, was quite funny in parts and most important, the boys loved it!
So, all and all a pretty good day. Wish I could have enjoyed it with my W though!
W is coming home from her 4 day spa weekend and I'm feeling a little anxious. I remain very concerned about the stress this has put her under. I hope she is taking care of herself.
Not once did she call to speak with the children which is very uncharacteristic of her. I suspect she spent her time away with the OM and that this may cause our R to deteriorate further. On the other hand, I hold onto a small glimmer of hope that she used her time away to reflect and consider what is becoming of her life and realizes what she is giving up, (safety, security, intact family, etc.) I suppose this is only a fantasy.
There is so much that we could do to improve our relationship and things could get considerably better if she would only take off her blinders. We have a good life with 2 wonderful children. Why must she spoil it?
I'm am close to accepting that full implementation of the LRT is going to be necessary and I am dreading the day I have to implement. But, at this point I don't see any other way to get through to her.
I think it is time for another session with my DB coach.
I'm am close to accepting that full implementation of the LRT is going to be necessary and I am dreading the day I have to implement. But, at this point I don't see any other way to get through to her.
How do you interpret the LRT?
Well LRT consists of several steps or parts: Stop the chase, GAL/detach, Wait & Watch. For me, I have "stopping the chase" down. No letters, I love you's, gifts, R discussions, etc.
The GAL is something that I think would be easier if I moved out which is what my W would prefer that I do, (remove that which is causing her all the guilt she has been suffering with since she dropped the bomb). By moving out, it would be easier for me to detach some and put some distance between us. It is not what I want to do but the time is coming for me to make that move and it is probably for the best.
Quick update before I go to sleep...
Picked W up from the airport this evening. I was freshly groomed, wearing my best polo shirt and looking pretty spiffy if I do say so myself. It was a little awkward at first. She looked really good and rested from her 4 day spa weekend and I would have loved to hug her and kiss her upon seeing her bit that wasn't going to happen.
Anyway, on the way home we talked about my weekend with the boys, their soccer games, the movie we saw yesterday, the clothes shopping we did today, the sensitive sexual situation I had to deal with with my S13, etc.
In talking about these things W and I were actually laughing and smiling and getting a general kick out of the antics of our 2 boys. W actually complimented me on handling the "situation" with S13, saying that "you handled that really well". She also said that it sounded like we had a great weekend and that we did a lot of bonding. The 20 minute ride home flew by like it was 5 minutes. When we weren't talking, W was staring out the passenger window as if in a daze (wonder what she is thinking).
When we pulled up to the house, I surprised W with a garage that you can actually park a car in (cleaned it up this afternoon). She even thanked me for cleaning the garage!
So, W's return home went off better than I expected, though she seems a little distant and distracted. Hopefully she is feeling good about my time with the boys and I hope this translates into overall positive feelings. We shall see.
Today I'm struggling with the fact that W continues to be disengaged. What I mean by that is that while she is very pleasant, her attitude towards me is very uninterested, detached even. She continues to spend all her time in the guest bedroom and only comes out to eat, use the bathroom and interact with the kids. She does not seem at all interested in engaging in any conversation that doesn't involve the kids. She will respond to questions regarding houshold matters, (finances, home repairs, dr. appts, etc) but nothing else. She is so very hard to read. It is as if all she is doing is patiently waiting for me to move out so she can get on with her life.
My goal is to get us both into MC ASAP but she won't even broach the subject of our relationship. I'm not bringing it up either but someone has to break to stalemate eventually. Yes?
This is so very frustrating!!
2,
From what I have read on this forum, and in the DR book, pushing your s to do mc if your r is on rocky grounds is probably not a good idea. It gets confusing sometimes, because the book says to ask for what you want, but at the end of that chapter it says dont do this if your r is rocky.
I was dbing with my s, things were looking up, I got alittle ahead of myself and I sent her what i thought was a good letter in which i took responsibility for my shortcomings in the m, pledged to work on my issues, and asked her to start going to mc with me to renew our marriage. This letter pretty much pushed her out the door much faster. She moved up the date of her departure by 6 months, and told me later that the letter showed that i wasnt listening to her when she first dropped the bomb, and that I was still trying to control the sitch, which had alwlys been one of her complaints during our m.
Bottom line, if control issues have ever been an issue in your m, she might see your trying to get her to to go to mc as controlling, maybe?
Just my 2 cents
Thanks for the post Gunny. While my goal is to get us into MC ASAP, I am not pressing the issue. It has to come from her. What I am trying to do is "keep the road home paved and smooth" so that my W decides that she wants to save the marriage. So, yes I know that I can't control what she does, I hope to be able to subtly influence her to move in that direction with my 180's, etc.
It is all very frustrating though because W seems very distant and continues to carry on her long distance EA/A with the OM. She doesn't engage at all with me without my prompting and it is mostly superficial stuff regarding kids and logistics. We are not and have really never been antagonistic towards each other. She just seems to have shut the door which is very upsetting for me.
Immediate goals for me include getting a job (other than the little business I have which doesn't generate enough $$ to support me), continue 180's, try to GAL and hopefully get us to MC. If for no other reason, MC will at least give us an opportunity to discuss our differences (because that isn't happening now) and hopefully help us to better appreciate each others contributions to this M and what creates the tension and how to avoid that stuff.
I'm fearful this is all just a pipe dream and that W is really DONE. God I hope not!
Today I'm struggling with the fact that W continues to be disengaged. What I mean by that is that while she is very pleasant, her attitude towards me is very uninterested, detached even.
You don't seem to understand how serious an EA for a woman truly is. It is major for a woman b/c it's all based on feelings, and that draws her in....and keeps attached to the one who is making her feel really good.
When the two of you first fell in love, you were very attractive to her. She was more interested in you than any other person in the world. She wouuld be pleasant with other people, but she really just wanted to spend time with you. She wanted to hear what you had to say, especially when anything about the two of you.....love......a possible future together.
This is what she's doing when she goes to the guest bedroom and shuts herself off from the world. I suspect she chose to use that room so that you would have no excuse to barge in on her privacy. That is what's important to her......privacy.
My goal is to get us both into MC ASAP but she won't even broach the subject of our relationship.
You need to "get this" through your head. A WAW who is in an A does not want to work on her M! She does not want to go to any MC, and futhermore, if you press her about it....she will go one time, but it will not get the results you hope. She will announce that she's getting a D. Then she can tell friends/relatives that she tried everything, even MC, and it didn't work.
MC does not work for a woman who is done with her M and her heart and mind is wrapped up with another man. You need to forget that option.
I'm not telling you there is no hope for saving the M, I'm just saying that going that route (MC)won't do it.
Immediate goals for me include getting a job (other than the little business I have which doesn't generate enough $$ to support me), continue 180's, try to GAL
These are good goals and I think they are vital to your M. When I was a WAW in an EA, I lost respect for my H. He is self-employed and motivation is key to his making a living. When he discovered my EA, it took him down. He could not motivate himself to work enough to pay our bills. We nearly lost our house b/c he got so far behind in payments (and didn't let me know). So, the less work he did, the less his income......and the less my respect for him as the "provider" of our family. I was wanting financial security (and thought OM could give me that).
It breaks my heart (now) to think how cold I felt toward my H. I did not want him anywhere under the same roof as me. I wanted freedom and I wanted privacy away from him and anyone else that would be a barrier from OM.
Finding additional work to help with finances is good right now. Search around and see what you can do before saying anything to her. Just trust me on some things I tell you that will turn her off.
GAL is the next most important thing you need to do.
Hey 2,
Did you ask her at the very beginning of this mess if she wanted to go to mc? Just curious? If so, what was her response?
It breaks my heart (now) to think how cold I felt toward my H. I did not want him anywhere under the same roof as me. I wanted freedom and I wanted privacy away from him and anyone else that would be a barrier from OM.
Finding additional work to help with finances is good right now. Search around and see what you can do before saying anything to her. Just trust me on some things I tell you that will turn her off.
Sandi - I appreciate your perspective. I think what you said you were feeling towards your H regarding privacy and freedom is exactly what my W is feeling. She has a f/t job (works from home) that pays very well, enough even to support us all. she has said in the past that she would be happy if she worked and I stayed home. Since I lost a very high paying job a few years ago, then did some consulting, then started a business, I think W discovered she doesn't want me home.
She has been in T for several years with a "life coach" and only recently (last few months) feels like she finally knows what she wants and apparently it doesn't include me. I don't know if she has shared her OM secret with her T. Maybe it doesn't matter.
Gunny - When W first dropped the bomb, I asked specifically why we didn't go to MC. She said she didn't know. I've asked her one other time why no MC and she has no explanation.
Sandi - Your post appears to suggest that you were the WAW who was having an EA. How did you find your way back?
I should also add that I know that for my own sense of self worth that I need to get a job. It will give me something to do, something to look forward to, bring in some $$ and maybe even change my attitude about myself. I have to do this and the sooner the better.
I've got several applications out there but nothing in way of any interest yet. I did get an immediate rejection from an employer for a position that I was overqualified for. It cracks me up, if I meet all the minimum qualifications, why are employers afraid to hire someone someone they consider overqualified? Frustrating!
You need to "get this" through your head. A WAW who is in an A does not want to work on her M! She does not want to go to any MC, and futhermore, if you press her about it....she will go one time, but it will not get the results you hope. She will announce that she's getting a D. Then she can tell friends/relatives that she tried everything, even MC, and it didn't work.
MC does not work for a woman who is done with her M and her heart and mind is wrapped up with another man. You need to forget that option.
I'm not telling you there is no hope for saving the M, I'm just saying that going that route (MC)won't do it.
Sandi - OK good advice! MC was one of my immediate goals as I thought that we could at least get our issues out in the open and reach some understanding. If MC is not a good option, what is? Do I have to move out to show W that I am willing and able to move on, thus giving her the space and freedom she is seeking. Where does that decision ultimately lead?
It is interesting that my W has said that she wants me to move out, that she is willing to tap our life savings to support this decision since I don't have a job and she has also said that we should trade in my current vehicle in place of something that gets better gas mileage. Add to this the idea that once we sell our house, she has visions of each of us buying smaller houses in the same neighborhood so we can be near each other/kids.
To my mind this sounds too contrived. Sort of like... "I know you are hurting so here's a deal too good to pass up. Lets sell the house get something smaller, lets get you a new car and all you have to do is move out so I don't have to feel guilt over the decision I've made regarding our R."
It is all so vary maddening!!
[b]Sort of like... "I know you are hurting so here's a deal too good to pass up. Lets sell the house get something smaller, lets get you a new car and all you have to do is move out so I don't have to feel guilt over the decision I've made regarding our R."
Yes, you are right on both counts. It is maddening and designed to reduce their guilt. My W has visions of me coming over for dinner, tucking our S in at night (and then presumably leaving), me taking the SS and SD on trips with S and I. While none of those, on face, are something I'd be against. She gets mad when I start to poke holes in her dream fabric. When would SS and SD go with me? If you someday meet someone won't it be weird that I'm in house at bedtime? And so on.
It is completely to assuage their guilt. Deep down, beneath the stoic/uncaring face, they know the incredible pain they are inflicting on the LBS and on any kids involved. Their only defense is this contrivance of normalcy otherwise they'd have to look at their actions in the narcissistic and selfish light they exist in.
My personal favorite is to see friends of my W who support her by saying "life is too short to ever be unhappy". BS. Lots of people are unhappy for lots of reasons and find ways to work on it, not run away from it. If you extend that line of thinking to one's kids for example, then how would you tear up their house? I thought life was too short to be unhappy? But apparently life is too short for ME to be unhappy is what they truly mean.
Sandi2,
I have been reading many of your posts and really appreciate the wisdom that you share. I would GREATLY appreciate it if you could check out my sitch sometime and give me your advice/comments. Thank you very much,
2THEPOINT, I am sorry for the quick hijack, I dont know how to send a private message, I ask your indulgence, thank you,
Gunny
Good morning folks. I could use some guidance, please. W initiated R discussion yesterday. I will post details later (we had an hour long conversation). Bottom line right now is that she still wants me to move out and the sooner the better. She is experiencing profound bouts of guilt and stress. What gets me and where I need help is with regard to the long distance EA/OM.
The OM is the last person she talks to before she goes to sleep and is the first person she talks to when she wakes up. She tells me she has no one to talk to and this is why her stress is building. She needs me out of the house so she can "stop living the lie" of our supposed happy family. She needs to be able to tell her parents about our separation before they arrive for Thanksgiving. I'm cool with all that. Where I struggle is with the ES/OM. I've only mentioned it one time early on in this ordeal during an emotional outburst. I've since come to understand that the EA is much deeper than I expected. We've never really discussed the EA other than my emotional outburst to which she had no reaction. She has never brought it up nor has she acknowledged the EA. I feel like I need to say something, anything to let W know that I am fully aware of her EA and that I am under no illusions about the real driver behind her need for me to move out.
So my question is, do I say anything or zip it?
Good morning 2,
Good question. During my convos with my wife, which were always civil, I asked her about ea/pa? with old high school twice. The first time she confirmed that she was indeed interfacing with him on FB. I didnt go any farther than that, I did not press it beacause I remembered by DR said about not pressing s about a.
The sencond time I asked her if she was still in contact with om(she had just come back from ohio to bring some stuff out there) she said they "were taking it slow". Again, remembering the advice, I did not press it. I still wonder if I did the right thing, should I have pressed for more info, or just left it alone.
I am inclined to think I made the right decision. Pressing her for more info was not going to make my sitch any better, she was going to leave anyway, and in DR parlance, it was not going to help me accomplish my goal, which was to not be controling.
So, if control has been one of her issues, what purpose would it serve to press her? Is it going to honestly help your sitch?
Good luck 2
You know it is funny, it is so easy for me to give advice to people who are in the same situation as I am and that advice is to detach and not confront regarding the EA/A/OM. But, as I think about my own predicament I can't help but have an overwhelming desire to confront. If for no other reason than to make peace with the fact that W wants to break up the family to be with OM primarily and because of our issues, secondarily. I feel like she owes me that respect to be upfront and honest and will not admit this without my prompting. God give me strength!
I am overcome with grief today. W and I had a lengthy conversation last night regarding the future and she is set on me moving out. For me to detach, I will need to create this space but it is absolutely eating me alive! My W readily acknowledged all of the changes she is seeing and likes what she sees. But, she says as we all have been cautioned by DR and others on this board, "I hope you aren't doing this with the expectation of a reconciliation". Of course my response is that these changes are for me and for the kids and for my future happiness. If a reconciliation occurs then that is a bonus but not the goal. I did tell W that although she wants to break us apart, I do not but will do what is necessary to help us both find our peace.
So today I got a text from good friends of ours asking if we'd like to spend Christmas with them. The tears immediately began to flow (as they are now) at the thought that as a family we may never be together again and my heart breaks!
So my real journey begins as I make preparations to move out, detach and forge my way in this scary new world.
Hey 2thepoint,
Sorry about the pain you're feeling. I know it. Hang in there.
I do not know what current board dogma is, but when I was on here before, there was a general consensus that the BS should not move out of the family home. I don't know y'all's financial circumstances (who owns/rents residence, etc. or if common property), but If the WW wants to pursue a life away from their partner, then they are free to do so.
There are a number of reasons for you not to move out:
1) Potentially could be viewed as abandonment of children
2) Sets precedent if things proceed to divorce
3) It 'cushions' the choice of the WS -- if they are choosing to walk away from their life and commitment, that is their choice. It does not mean that you should suffer for it or are obliged to enable it or facilitate it -- she needs to put on her big girl panties if that is what she wants. There are significant economic and time costs to starting a new home -- why should you disproportionately bear those if you are not making that choice? It is truly respecting your W's choice that you live apart to not rescue her or cushion her from the consequences of her choices.
4) You could offer to help her move instead and pack her things if she wants to leave.
She may get all kinds of angry at you. That's fine, she's entitled to. Her potential anger or emotional responses should not dictate your behavior -- that is a key part of healthy detachment. Be your own compass.
Also, I do not know what the current board dogma is on how to handle EA/PA, but I will tell you something from personal experience. I was having an EA on my W before SHE later dropped the bomb on me about 1-2 years after I stopped my EA. She got me to stop my EA immediately by exposing it to me that she knew, by emailing the person and spouse of person I was having EA with, by saying she would not share me with another woman.
Also I know from my own boundaries that I do not want to share my spouse with another man. If your sons came to you one day and said, Dad, I think my W might be cheating on me with this guy on Facebook. What would you tell them? Or what model would you want them to follow?
When I suspected my W was having an EA, I confronted her with it. She got extremely angry at me, called me controlling, etc. But I think she gained respect for me. "I'm sorry for ways that I have hurt you in the past, but I will not be in a relationship in which I share my W with another man. This situation does not work for me. If you want to carry on like that (and it's her choice), you need to live somewhere else."
I see detachment as detaching from her decisions, choices, and emotional responses -- those are hers. I don't think it means you should detach from your own value set. If your value set is that you do not want to share your spouse, I think it more than ok to express that. Then it's her choice how to act.
thing is, his DB coach said it might be an act of selflessness to move out and give her the space she's requesting
b/c their marital history consists of what 2t refers to as selfishness on His part...and a lot of neglecting his w and kids.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just saying there is a reason for his action and for them getting to this place.
2t, I hesitate to post to you b/c I know you want things said a certain way and I'm too direct for that.
But I'd say it's hardly over unless you want it to be. You can fight for her more than you have and for far longer.
That does not mean you keep showing her your pain or neediness, God no.
Be a strong man, earn enough to provide for your family (got mixed messages on whether you were "making more money than you ever dreamed of" or wanted to earn more?? Are you a sahd? ) and BE UPBEAT!! Be easy to be around.
Anyhow, regardless of how fair or not -- this is what it is. We must deal with the cards we are dealt.
The r with OM has not run its' course. BUT As long as she truly believes you have changed --she will wonder if she should have stayed.
The MINUTE you revert to your old ways she'll reassure herself of the rightness of her decision.
You do NOT want her to reassure herself, you want her to doubt that choice.
Without ever saying so...
So be the best man you can be, be a little mysterious. Show her the changes and say nothing about them to her. Make them about being a better you.
Keep working on being a good listener and recapping what she said so you KNOW what she meant and there's no mind reading.
And please back off with all the expectations or pushing for more when you get a gesture of kindness or concern from her.
See, you want her to feel safe doing that, not having to remind you that you are 'not to read into"....
Leave her to her "task" and let her discover that the grass is greener where you water it.
This was something you yourself only discovered recently, so model that.
In time the A will lose some of its' luster for ALL r's take work and he cannot exceed you in all matters. She will wonder...
and she will look back over her shoulder every time she sees you and the boys playing or talking like good dads do w/their sons...and she will wonder....
and YOU will look good b/c you will have become the man you want to become.
The man you were meant to be.
Make sense?
thing is, his DB coach said it might be an act of selflessness to move out and give her the space she's requesting
b/c their marital history consists of what 2t refers to as selfishness on His part...and a lot of neglecting his w and kids.
I get that 2t has been selfish and neglectful in the past -- most of us probably were in some way that contributed to our marital breakdown.
I am suggesting that he think hard about how to be responsive to what she wants (space) without compromising his own core needs/boundaries -- that he not swing the pendulum too far to the other way being obsequious to her, cowtowing to her whims for the sake of selflessness, BUT at his own expense.
He can validate her decision to separate and help her get her space without him being the one to leave. I get that you want space and don't want to be in a relationship with me. I don't want to be in an R with someone who does not want to be with me either. If you feel that way, I agree that it is best that you move out. If you want, I will even help you pack/move.
I mean, do you want to legitimize her having an EA and telling him to leave the family home so she can carry her EA on in peace?
What is the current sleeping arrangement at home 2t?
thing is, his DB coach said it might be an act of selflessness to move out and give her the space she's requesting
b/c their marital history consists of what 2t refers to as selfishness on His part...and a lot of neglecting his w and kids.
I get that 2t has been selfish and neglectful in the past -- most of us probably were in some way that contributed to our marital breakdown.
But HE realizes it...and is trying to show change in HIM. And not to beat a dead horse, but he sounds like he's owning something he really ought to own; I would not be so quick to gloss over his work or need for it.
I am suggesting that he think hard about how to be responsive to what she wants (space) without compromising his own core needs/boundaries -- that he not swing the pendulum too far to the other way being obsequious to her, cowtowing to her whims for the sake of selflessness, BUT at his own expense.
No matter what, he'll be doing something at HIS expense; his w wants a divorce. It stinks but it's how it is.
She's not insane. In her mind, she feels he pushed her into the arms of OM....Did you read his whole thread?
He can validate her decision to separate and help her get her space without him being the one to leave. I get that you want space and don't want to be in a relationship with me. I don't want to be in an R with someone who does not want to be with me either. If you feel that way, I agree that it is best that you move out. If you want, I will even help you pack/move.
I mean, do you want to legitimize her having an EA and telling him to leave the family home so she can carry her EA on in peace?
are you asking me this or 2t?
And his leaving has nothing to do with "legtimizing" her having an EA or his prior behavior or her wanting to carry on the EA, which she'll do anyhow. He has no control over that.
I guess I'm reluctant to openly challenge the advice of his DB coach.
What is the current sleeping arrangement at home 2t?
25, I totally get you saying that 2t is owning his past misdeeds and wanting (and needing) to make amends. I'm all for that. However, I also hear 2 in his message above say:
But, as I think about my own predicament I can't help but have an overwhelming desire to confront. If for no other reason than to make peace with the fact that W wants to break up the family to be with OM primarily and because of our issues, secondarily. I feel like she owes me that respect to be upfront and honest and will not admit this without my prompting.
Emotions can be signals of your own boundaries being crossed (or about to be crossed). What 2t writes above suggests to me that he may have boundaries concerning 1) his W being with another M and breaking up his family, and 2) honesty and respect in his relationship with his W.
I'm suggesting that 2t reconcile his desire to listen to, respect and be responsive to his wife's desire for space at this time with his own (unspoken?) boundaries.
For example, if 2t moves out without saying something to his W concerning the EA, is he violating one or both of the above boundaries? Only 2t knows whether either of those are core boundaries for him. Maybe they aren't.
I totally agree with you that he doesn't control whether or not she participates in the R or has an EA or files for divorce. Yes, those are totally her choices.
But, whether or not she will or will not continue the EA should not dictate what HE does -- that's one of the main points of detachment -- not to act in response to or in anticipation of another's actions or feelings. He should act based on what is the right thing for HIM to do/say. He (and he alone), DOES control whether he crosses his own boundaries. That's part of what I meant, by "at his own expense." Not to cross his own core boundaries while trying to be selfless in making amends for past selfishness. Sorry if I was unclear.
Respect his wife's choices and amend for past neglect and selfishness, within his own boundaries.
25, I totally get you saying that 2t is owning his past misdeeds and wanting (and needing) to make amends. I'm all for that. However, I also hear 2 in his message above say:
But, as I think about my own predicament I can't help but have an overwhelming desire to confront. If for no other reason than to make peace with the fact that W wants to break up the family to be with OM primarily and because of our issues, secondarily. I feel like she owes me that respect to be upfront and honest and will not admit this without my prompting.
Here's where I part ways with you. And it's just my opinion, obviously. But to HER, imo, she was pushed into the arms of OM.
Therefore, is the OM really the cause or the result?
TO her, there were his years of not caring enough to even bother hearing her, literally, or to ask why she needed to see a t or was so depressed she needed treatment that they "never talked about"?
These are much deeper issues than an EA is, imo. These are the roots of why her emotional needs would lead her to an EA, and while I do not "defend" it,
to pretend there were no contributing factors is to deny reality.
I think that making this about "Her owning the A" is off target and worse, It's about ego and assigning of blame.
Plus, it does nothing to help them reconcile or move forward into the future, which requires
him looking far more at himself and THEN HER looking at herself....pretty much the DBer does the first 100 steps...and then some.
Emotions can be signals of your own boundaries being crossed (or about to be crossed). What 2t writes above suggests to me that
he may have boundaries concerning 1) his W being with another M and breaking up his family, and 2) honesty and respect in his relationship with his W.
Obviously he doesn't want her to be with OM. Not an unusual "boundary"...but again, I stand by what I wrote above. No matter what you call it, it's pride and assignment of blame. I just don't see that as helping IF RECONCILIATION is really the goal..
but I get that it may not be. I get that he may want her to be the bad guy in this and let it end and that might be easier, at first glance...
but it's not easier in the long run.I'm suggesting that 2t reconcile his desire to listen to, respect and be responsive to his wife's desire for space at this time with his own (unspoken?) boundaries.
For example, if 2t moves out without saying something to his W concerning the EA, is he violating one or both of the above boundaries?
Only 2t knows whether either of those are core boundaries for him. Maybe they aren't.
Of course they're boundaries. He can say anything he wants; doesn't make it fact. He can tell her it's all her fault and that cheating or the desire to, is the "real reason" for the end of the family and he can tell his sons that if he so chooses. Does not make him accurate or gallant or "self respecting"- it makes him self serving
and it does nothing to advance his cause. If he wants to keep the road home paved and smooth,
then he can privately tell her how he feels about the EA but if he pretends that she'll think SHE is the culprit, he could lose her forever.
And if he convinces himself of that, he'll never grow or become the man he wants to become.
I totally agree with you that he doesn't control whether or not she participates in the R or has an EA or files for divorce. Yes, those are totally her choices.
But, whether or not she will or will not continue the EA should not dictate what HE does -- that's one of the main points of detachment -- not to act in response to or in anticipation of another's actions or feelings. He should act based on what is the right thing for HIM to do/say. He (and he alone), DOES control whether he crosses his own boundaries. That's part of what I meant, by "at his own expense." Not to cross his own core boundaries while trying to be selfless in making amends for past selfishness. Sorry if I was unclear.
Respect his wife's choices and amend for past neglect and selfishness, within his own boundaries.
Busto - thanks for our post and perspective!
25 - welcome back, I've missed you. I mean that!
Current living arrangements are that W sleeps upstairs in the guest BR while I sleep in the downstairs MB.
Regarding the EA, although I am angry about that and have an overwhelming need to confront, I know that if I want to save my M, now is not the time. I think I've read here and elsewhere that I have to know whether something I say or do will harm or improve chances for a reconciliation. I want to do no harm, so I will bite my tongue for now. When W initiated the hour long R discussion the other day, the thought of the EA was running through my mind the entire time but I chose to say nothing.
25 - In addition to selfish behavior I've also come to discover that I am very controlling. I mentioned this to my W and she totally agreed. This is probably the biggest issue in our R. W said that for too many years she has felt forced into decisions that she didn't agree with entirely and has pushed down her anger for so long that she finally has had enough! I like your tag line - Be Happy or be "Right" and I mentioned to my W that I had seen that written somewhere and she nodded in agreement and almost smiled.
So, as I continue to dig deep, I see control, selfishness and emotional detachment as my biggest contributors to the state of our R.
Busto - I think that by moving out, W will get the space she needs for reflection and healing and I will be able to detach in a way that allows me to continue my journey of discovery while also preparing for the potential of life without my W. Eventually, there will come a time for us to dig deeper together regarding what lead each of us to where we find ourselves and that is when I think it will be appropriate to discuss the EA. Until then I think it is best to keep quiet about this particular issue.
25 - I am currently a SAHD although I have a small real estate investment business with a partner in another state. My wife makes a good living telecommuting as an telecom engineer. 3 years ago I left a very high paying executive level position with a large financial services company. When I left that job, our household income was reduced by 60% or more. So while our household income is significantly less than what it was, we are able to maintain our standard of living as long as we watch our $$. Interesting discovery though along these lines. As I've mentioned previously, W said that she would be happy for me to be the SAHD while she works. This I think was due to the stress I was under at my job and she felt we could get by, which is true. However, $$ is tight so we have to be careful and that has proven to be more uncomfortable for my W than she anticipated. Also, having me around all the time turned out to be a reminder to my W of some of the things she didn't like in my behavior.
With me moving out and until I can find a job, we will have to tap into our savings to support a second household. Part of me thinks that W doesn't find the unemployed SAHD very attractive and would feel much more confident and secure if her H had a real job. And in this, I don't disagree. We have discussed the pros and cons of having to tap into savings to support 2 households, but W needs her space. I could easily insist that my W be the one to move and she has said she would, but to 25's point about what my DB coach has said, me moving out may actually be the biggest unselfish thing I could do in this situation.
Incidently, my W has said that she would prefer I continue to manage the finances even if I'm living somewhere else. So she wants/needs space but she doesn't want to sever all the ties........
Here are a few updates on my 180's and GAL activities:
- When disciplining the children, I rarely raise my voice - Big Change!
- I'm spending significantly more time with the kids. During my W's 4 day spa weekend, I connected with the boys in ways both small and large. W commented that she noticed all the great bonding and also said that how I dealt with a particular sensitive situation with my 13 year old was "fantastic!"
- Keeping the house tidy - W said that the house has looked the best it has in years!
- Doing much more listening and much less talking
- I go out most days in the morning and don't come home until late afternoon; What am I up to? I'm becoming Austin Powers, International Man of Mystery ;o)
- I'm going to the gym more often than in the past - I'm going to "pump me up!" :o)
- Yesterday, I told W that I couldn't take the boys to soccer practice which I normally do because I had "other plans". What were those plans? Mystery Man strikes again! Actually, I attended a Divorce Care session, but W does't need to know that, right?
- Saturday I'm going on a bike ride with some buddies of mine. It's been a few months since I have ridden and it is time to get "back in the saddle".
So that's my update. Thanks for the thought provoking dialogue!
[quote=bustorama]25, I totally get you saying that 2t is owning his past misdeeds and wanting (and needing) to make amends. I'm all for that. However, I also hear 2 in his message above say:
[quote=2t]But, as I think about my own predicament I can't help but have an overwhelming desire to confront. If for no other reason than to make peace with the fact that W wants to break up the family to be with OM primarily and because of our issues, secondarily. I feel like she owes me that respect to be upfront and honest and will not admit this without my prompting.
Here's where I part ways with you. And it's just my opinion, obviously. But to HER, imo, she was pushed into the arms of OM.
Therefore, is the OM really the cause or the result? In my opinion, the OM is both. I engaged in a brief EA against my W before she left me years later. I had similarly justified the EA to myself and to her by saying that she had "driven" me to it by neglecting my EN for years and showing me nothing but anger. And, yes, she had hurt me in those actions and inactions. BUT, I (and 2t's W) had other choices besides having an EA. She, for example, could have left the R without beginning an EA (some do). She could have stated an ultimatum to him -- if you don't go to therapy with me/shape up/stop this neglectful behavior/start listening to me, etc. then I will file for divorce and move out. There are plenty of choices other than starting an EA (those are things she hopefully will come to see down the road). I mean, at some level, she "knows" it is wrong for her to make this choice because it is/was secretive.
YES, he hurt her. YES, he neglected her. YES, he ignored and invalidated her emotional needs. Those are all things he really needs to make amends for. But, I don't see how any of that means he should not mind his own boundaries and be honest with his W
He can validate her feelings of hurt and neglect and even her feeling that he 'drove' her to it, while being honest with her about his own feelings and minding his own boundaries. Validation is accepting and valuing the other person's feelings, not necessarily agreeing with them.
I want to be clear. I am not suggesting that he start blaming her for the current situation. I totally agree with you there. It negates his role in the breakdown and his need to look inwards and fix his side of the fence. 'This is your fault, you are having an EA, you are breaking up our family.' No, no, no.
I am suggesting he be honest with her about what he knows, how he feels about it, and (if he wishes), that it crosses one of his boundaries. He can do this all while validating her hurt, anger, resentment and desire for space.
W, you are important to me, and I am sorry I have hurt you these years by not acting that way towards you, by shutting you down and not listening to you -- by not showing you how I feel about you when I had the chance. It is important to me that we are open and honest with each other going forward, and I know that you are having an EA. I get that you feel you had no other choice because you felt so neglected and unloved for years. That I drove you to it. I can only imagine how hurt, unloved and angry you felt for things to come to this. But, I can't be in a relationship with you while you are having an EA -- I can't have another man in my marriage or between us. I just can't share you that way. I understand that you want space and if that is what you want, I will help you to move out (or if he REALLY decides it is the right thing for him, for him to move out).
It validates her feelings. It is open, honest and sharing with her. It minds his boundary of not sharing his W with another man.
Regarding the EA, although I am angry about that and have an overwhelming need to confront, I know that if I want to save my M, now is not the time. I think I've read here and elsewhere that I have to know whether something I say or do will harm or improve chances for a reconciliation. I want to do no harm, so I will bite my tongue for now.
I totally agree that finger pointing, blaming, etc. would be misguided (and also would not help the sitch). Think about ways, though, that opening up/sharing about your knowledge of the EA could be done constructively, if not immediately, then at a later time.
Be careful about crossing your own boundaries (or letting others cross your boundaries), because of fear of the consequences of enforcing your boundaries. Think of it on this flip side -- your W for years did not enforce her boundaries with you. She allowed herself to be ignored and neglected and pushed her anger down 'for the good of the R.' She didn't enforce her boundaries or share her negative feelings openly and assertively with you. I'M NOT OK WITH YOU NEGLECTING ME AND CONTROLLING ME LIKE THIS, H!!!!! While she did it with good intentions, it unfortunately has further contributed to your marital breakdown. Might pushing down your discomfort about the EA and not sharing and enforcing your boundary lead to a similar place?
That is a very important insight you've gained re: ways in which you were controlling and your W feeling cajoled into choices that she didn't totally agree with. Really work on that. It doesn't mean you shouldn't express your desires and wishes, but rather to really listen to hers (and provide an environment in which she feels SAFE to share them) and accommodate them. Validate and thank her when she shares her wishes/desires with you from here forward.
We have discussed the pros and cons of having to tap into savings to support 2 households, but W needs her space. I could easily insist that my W be the one to move and she has said she would, but to 25's point about what my DB coach has said, me moving out may actually be the biggest unselfish thing I could do in this situation.
Incidently, my W has said that she would prefer I continue to manage the finances even if I'm living somewhere else. So she wants/needs space but she doesn't want to sever all the ties........
There are pros and cons to this. I'm sure you are aware of many of the pros. Re: the cons, some people believe that to respect your W's choice for space that she should bear the associated consequences -- otherwise, you are rescuing her from her choices (not detachment). That is, if she wants to live separately from you and outside the R -- to see how that is, then, to respect her choice, she should see how life without you would be in every respect -- that she should be responsible for managing her day-to-day finances. You also run the risk of being viewed as controlling if you are still holding purse strings or telling her how much she can or can't spend or on what.
It makes sense that she wants to keep some of the security of you there -- she has had it for years. Are you ok, though, with managing your W's finances while she lives separately from you and participates in an EA with someone else? To take that load off her back?
Here are a few updates on my 180's and GAL activities:
- When disciplining the children, I rarely raise my voice - Big Change!
- I'm spending significantly more time with the kids. During my W's 4 day spa weekend, I connected with the boys in ways both small and large. W commented that she noticed all the great bonding and also said that how I dealt with a particular sensitive situation with my 13 year old was "fantastic!"
- Keeping the house tidy - W said that the house has looked the best it has in years!
- Doing much more listening and much less talking
- I go out most days in the morning and don't come home until late afternoon; What am I up to? I'm becoming Austin Powers, International Man of Mystery ;o)
- I'm going to the gym more often than in the past - I'm going to "pump me up!" :o)
- Yesterday, I told W that I couldn't take the boys to soccer practice which I normally do because I had "other plans". What were those plans? Mystery Man strikes again! Actually, I attended a Divorce Care session, but W does't need to know that, right?
- Saturday I'm going on a bike ride with some buddies of mine. It's been a few months since I have ridden and it is time to get "back in the saddle".
The above is outstanding!!! Keep it up!
25yearsmlc - your reply at 12:49 am was so insightful!
[quote=bustorama]25, I totally get you saying that 2t is owning his past misdeeds and wanting (and needing) to make amends. I'm all for that. However, I also hear 2 in his message above say:
[quote=2t]But, as I think about my own predicament I can't help but have an overwhelming desire to confront. If for no other reason than to make peace with the fact that W wants to break up the family to be with OM primarily and because of our issues, secondarily. I feel like she owes me that respect to be upfront and honest and will not admit this without my prompting.
Here's where I part ways with you. And it's just my opinion, obviously. But to HER, imo, she was pushed into the arms of OM.
Therefore, is the OM really the cause or the result?
In my opinion, the OM is both.
Sorry I don't believe that. She was faithful and loyal to him and put up with a LOT of crap for YEARS...BEFORE she strayed. And of course she had options. Who said she didn't? But You are assuming HER reasons for an EA were the same as yours....I submit, with only my intuition, that they were not.
She went to c and he didn't. She raised and interacted with the kids and he did not, he was a yeller, the last 3 years SHE was ALSO the breadwinner. He was mega controlling by his own admission, critical and snipey, loved the internet more than his family (in terms of attention to them)...and in many eyes, not pulling his weight outside the home...
I don't know if all those things really apply to you but even if they do, this is her we are talking about and we don't know her. But by his description, she was a good w for a long time. (God 2t, I don't mean to berate you b/c you are doing seriously good brave work and digging deep, but I feel like buster is projecting a tad too much while claiming to agree with what I said)....
Further, I said "2t can tell her what he wants about the EA if that makes him feel he's being direct & keeping a boundary". I don't know that telling her the obvious (ie that he does not like sharing her w/OM) is going to help or hurt their sitch as I'm sure she knows. But If it helps HIM, really...then okay...so if you agree with all the things we suggested and with his ideas, what are we arguing now?
I engaged in a brief EA against my W before she left me years later. I had similarly justified the EA to myself and to her by saying that she had "driven" me to it by neglecting my EN for years and showing me nothing but anger. And, yes, she had hurt me in those actions and inactions.
BUT, I (and 2t's W) had other choices besides having an EA. She, for example, could have left the R without beginning an EA (some do). She could have stated an ultimatum to him -- if you don't go to therapy with me/shape up/stop this neglectful
no offense but really, I do get this^^^^. Of course she/they had options. I said I was not defending an EA. Merely pointing out that it was not "insane" and that assigning blame seems more about ego and pride, than solution based therapy, which is what this site is about.behavior/start listening to me, etc. then I will file for divorce and move out. There are plenty of choices other than starting an EA (those are things she hopefully will come to see down the road). I mean, at some level, she "knows" it is wrong for her to make this choice because it is/was secretive.
YES, he hurt her. YES, he neglected her. YES, he ignored and invalidated her emotional needs. Those are all things he really needs to make amends for. But, I don't see how any of that means he should not mind his own boundaries and be honest with his W
He can validate her feelings of hurt and neglect and even her feeling that he 'drove' her to it, while being honest with her about his own feelings and minding his own boundaries.
Validation is accepting and valuing the other person's feelings, not necessarily agreeing with them.
You're explaining what validating is to me...Is this sort of journalling for you? I mean I am not sure where you are going with this...
I want to be clear. I am not suggesting that he start blaming her for the current situation. I totally agree with you there. It negates his role in the breakdown and his need to look inwards and fix his side of the fence. 'This is your fault, you are having an EA, you are breaking up our family.' No, no, no.
I am suggesting he be honest with her about what he knows, how he feels about it, and (if he wishes), that it crosses one of his boundaries. He can do this all while validating her hurt, anger, resentment and desire for space.
stipulated to in my earlier post.W, you are important to me, and I am sorry I have hurt you these years by not acting that way towards you, by shutting you down and not listening to you -- by not showing you how I feel about you when I had the chance. It is important to me that we are open and honest with each other going forward, and I know that you are having an EA. I get that you feel you had no other choice because you felt so neglected and unloved for years. That I drove you to it. I can only imagine how hurt, unloved and angry you felt for things to come to this. But, I can't be in a relationship with you while you are having an EA -- I can't have another man in my marriage or between us. I just can't share you that way. I understand that you want space and if that is what you want, I will help you to move out (or if he REALLY decides it is the right thing for him, for him to move out).
It validates her feelings. It is open, honest and sharing with her. It minds his boundary of not sharing his W with another man.
not sure what is in dispute here.
2,
How did the Divorce Care meeting go? Just curious, I just joined a group near me and have been going for 3 weeks, I like the people alot.
Even though my s has moved, she is still content to let me handle our investments. She has indicated that she completely trusts me to manage them, even though she eventually wants a d. She has not indicated any interest at all in my pension, (govt or Marine Corps). Curious behavior, didnt think about this until you mentioned your arrangement in your sitch
Doesn't that strike you as weird Gunny? My W is the same. Says one of the fundamental issues is she "doesn't trust me". Yet wants me to control all the finances, investments, financial planning, etc...
I even send her reports showing where our money went and what's where. She thanks me but repeatedly says she doesn't need it but I can send it if I want.
I don't get it... how can we be trustworthy enough to manage the money but otherwise not...
Doesn't that strike you as weird Gunny? My W is the same. Says one of the fundamental issues is she "doesn't trust me". Yet wants me to control all the finances, investments, financial planning, etc...
I even send her reports showing where our money went and what's where. She thanks me but repeatedly says she doesn't need it but I can send it if I want.
I don't get it... how can we be trustworthy enough to manage the money but otherwise not...
I think they are just excuses for the unexcusable. They require some reason to maintain their decision, even if they have to make one up.
Gunny - the DC meeting was ok. Small group (6 total) all women except for me and the facilitator. I didn't get the impression that any of them were interested in saving their marriages. So it was a little weird. Since I started mid-series I ended up at the session where the topic was on scriptural interpretation of divorce and when it is permitted and when it is not. Yesterday was an emotional day fore me and it was all I could do to keep it together during the session. Ugh!
Regarding financial matters, I think Busto makes a good point when he said "It makes sense that she wants to keep some of the security of you there -- she has had it for years." Part of me thinks that she just wants me physically out of the house and that this is the transitional phase. The other part of me is hopeful that she isn't totally sure what she wants. Who knows?
WHG - I think as far as women are concerned, trust in the general sense of the word and trust as it relates to matters of the heart are very different. So we need to find the balance and work really hard to understand where they are coming from. And it is something that must be continually tended to like a plot of land that can quickly get overgrown with weeds if not cared for on a regular basis. Make sense?
Actually it does, to a degree. The book How to Fix Your Marriage Without Talking About It talks about "stepping in the puddle" with your spouse.
At the same time, understanding the disconnect between finance and trust or, even more so, kids and trust is baffling. If we can't be trust with their heart how then do they trust us with their children (and their children's hearts).
To me... this trust thing... it's more of a smokescreen for an internalized personal issue. One that relates to forming healthy bonds and opening one's self up in a time of need. It's not really "trust" but connection. What I believe they are saying is "when I was hurting you never connected with me the way I needed you to" therefore I can't trust that you won't leave me alone in my pain again.
When people throw up trust issues it infers that there has been a breach of fidelity at some point (in the general sense, not the A sense), and I don't know that it truly is that. But it makes the issue confusing and noisy because you can show that there should be trust but really what is being sought is an emotional connection.
WHG - I think I get your point....
To me... this trust thing... it's more of a smokescreen for an internalized personal issue. One that relates to forming healthy bonds and opening one's self up in a time of need. It's not really "trust" but connection. What I believe they are saying is "when I was hurting you never connected with me the way I needed you to" therefore I can't trust that you won't leave me alone in my pain again.
When I was working in the corporate world we often conducted internal people surveys and I recall a question that was always asked "is your boss trustworthy?" They would often provide a definition with the question and as I recall for the question of trust, they were saying, does your boss follow through on commitments, does your boss do what they say they are going to do, etc.
So I think trust can be defined many ways. When we think of trust in relationships, we often default to lying or infidelity. What I think our spouses may be saying is that I don't trust you to be there for me when I need you most. Or, you are not consistently there for me and I've been burned enough to no longer trust you, emotionally.
Doesn't that strike you as weird Gunny? My W is the same. Says one of the fundamental issues is she "doesn't trust me". Yet wants me to control all the finances, investments, financial planning, etc...
I even send her reports showing where our money went and what's where. She thanks me but repeatedly says she doesn't need it but I can send it if I want.
I don't get it... how can we be trustworthy enough to manage the money but otherwise not...
b/c maybe (and this is a guess of course) she's not sure she trusts the
changes/180s...
so if you remember to "do the math"
consistent changes + sufficient time = change she can believe in...
then you'll find out what she means.
WHG - I think I get your point....
To me... this trust thing... it's more of a smokescreen for an internalized personal issue. One that relates to forming healthy bonds and opening one's self up in a time of need. It's not really "trust" but connection. What I believe they are saying is "when I was hurting you never connected with me the way I needed you to" therefore I can't trust that you won't leave me alone in my pain again.
When I was working in the corporate world we often conducted internal people surveys and I recall a question that was always asked "is your boss trustworthy?" They would often provide a definition with the question and as I recall for the question of trust, they were saying, does your boss follow through on commitments, does your boss do what they say they are going to do, etc.
So I think trust can be defined many ways. When we think of trust in relationships, we often default to lying or infidelity. What I think our spouses may be saying is that I don't trust you to be there for me when I need you most. Or, you are not consistently there for me and I've been burned enough to no longer trust you, emotionally.
agreed...
*************** Time to start a new thread *************
Sandi - Your post appears to suggest that you were the WAW who was having an EA. How did you find your way back?
I never left the house, but I was a WAW in heart. It had been in the makings for a long time. When I started playing around on-line, then of course....it ended with me in an EA.
The bottom line was that I knew what I was doing was wrong and went against everything I had been taught. I tried to find justifcation, but didn't get any. I found my way to the DB board and was very blessed to have two women who worked closer with me than anyone else. There were several others, of course, but these two seem to be war angels that wasn't going to let me loose to D. They didn't hold back on anything, and to this day I give credit to the good Lord for directing my path to get here....and for everyone who gave me the "truth" about my feelings, the EA, and OM.
It still took a lot of time before I was willing to put forth any effort to save the M. Let me say that differently. I did put forth some effort, but it was not heart felt and it wasn't the type of effort my H was seeking.
Making the decision to stay in the M was a very difficult step. I'm not sure that a LBH really gets that. I can understand that he'd think it should be the easiest part to decide you would not leave and break up your family. But if the WAW is going to stay with the LBH, it needs to be understood that is will be a "marriage" and not some buddy-buddy roommates stuff. That is what I "suggested" in a round-about way to my H, and he let me know right off the top that it would not be that type of arrangement. Which I didn't like it at the time, but I had to respect him for saying it. It was as if he was reminding me that he
was a man, and not the doormat I had been stepping on.
After I stopped my contact with OM and ended the EA, I think MC could have helped my H and me. However, he would not agree to it. I believe that made our healing time longer and maybe harder than if we had seen a professional.
I continued to come to the board every night. It was my therapy. It still is. I know I often talk a little harsh for newcomers, but that kind of plain speaking is what kept
me coming back when I was in an EA. So now, I try to pay it forward.
If MC is not a good option, what is?
Do you understand why I said it wasn't a good option when the WAW is in an A? Only when she has willingly left the A & OM, and desires to R the M, will MC be able to get positive results. You would not only be spinning your wheels, but more anger and resentment would build in your W (but I don't think she would stay long enough to let much build).
The other option? I really believe the Do's and Don'ts, or LRT list (whatever you wish to call it) works best. If she thinks you are "interested" in her......you aren't "available" for her.......you are going out without her.......you are being mysterious......you are detached.......it will draw her in and cause her to start seeing if she can still "affect" you like she use to. Human nature doesn't change much.
Do I have to move out to show W that I am willing and able to move on, thus giving her the space and freedom she is seeking. Where does that decision ultimately lead?
I strongly advise you not to move out. The only way I would advise moving would be if the children were being exposed to violent arguments, physcial abuse, etc. There are some cases where the environment at home is so bad that a couple has to separate before they can come back together, but so many don't R after seperation.
The "space and freedom" that you need to give her is not the same kind of space and freedom
she is seeking. When we tell you to pull back and give her space, we mean to stop pursuing her and stop smothering her. Give her more freedom by doing things without her, without being glued to her side, GAL, etc. The space & freedom
she desires is so that she can carry on an A and to act as though she is single. She thinks getting you out of the picture will accomplish that. She doesn't want you around to
remind her that she's a W and mother and/or mess up her playhouse.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by showing her that you are willing and able to move on.
The WAW, who is in an A, lives in a fantasy world she has created for herself. Remember the PEAS and how that affects her mind. That is her drug and she will drain your life savings to get her fix.
I would say not to try to prove anything to her at this time. If anyone has proving to do, it should be
her. A WAW has a keen way of making the LBH feel that he's the one that needs to prove something or take all the blame for the downfall of the M.
The best thing you can do right now is to stay calm and do not agree with any of her ideas for the future, like selling the house, etc. If you don't know what to say whenever she springs one of her "ideas", then just tell her you'll have to put some thought into it. It sounds like she's use to making major decisions in the M and she may try to bulldoze you down.
It's so important to keep your focus off her and the things she says. Have you a plan made and work the plan.
hello 2,
Brought the subject up at my divorce support meeting last night about our finances. Most of the group were women, they all found it curious that my s is almost completely indifferant about my pensions, finances, etc.
The point made here on the board is valid, it appears our sp's still want the security of knowing they do not have to worry about finances, but we run the risk of still being seen as controlling by continuing to run the investments. I will have to think this one over carefully.
Hope you are having a good day, it is snowing here!