Just need to journal...
I am at a point in my sitch where I need to let things rest and just be...
I must let my W go for now... it is what she wants... it is what she needs
I will do this for her... Because I love her
I need to stop having contact with my W in order to do this...
I will do this for me, my W, and my M...
I want a new, better M through FREE WILL...
I do not want my W to return to me because of pressure, manipulation, or any other reason other than she CHOOSES to return because she wants to be with me...
I will use this time to try to learn more about myself...
Who I am...
My character... vs. my personality...
I will use this time to look at what I want for my life...
If having my W is even what I truly want ...
What traits do I want in the person who I am with...
Does my W still fit that profile? Did she ever?
Am I still fighting just to win... or because I am afraid to cut my losses...
I need to figure these things out in my head and in my heart...
I will continue to hope that we can reconcile in the future...
I will let things rest...
I will just be...
For now...
Today is not the day that I give up. Tomorrow may be different, but today is not the day that I give up.
Denver
I am where you are too Denver. Still working, still evaluating and reevalutating myself and all my relationships.
It's painful at times but it's really true, the hardest person to get to know is yourself.
Know yourself.
I know I need and want more from a M than what I had and settled for, and my STBX may not ever be able to give me what I need or want anymore.
You may also reach the same conclusion.
Why do I say that? Because, he stills sees me as "the" problem.
As for giving up, I've had to change Jack's mantra to my own particular personality.
Today is the day I give up control over events, situations, and people that was never mine.
I control only me. The rest is up to God.
I keep hope, optimism and the ability to forgive alive.
Denver buddy.
I think you got it.
Peace regardless.
denver, my bit
i am right there with you
we will go through this journey together
i am here for you day or night, as i know you are for me
xoxo
Denver, just find your peace, allow the rest to sort itself out.
When it has, because it will. Move on to whatever presents itself next.
wow denver. one hell of a realization and tough to follow but i guess necessary. I may be right behind you buddy. R is within reach but true recon may not be there.
hopefully the path you choose is the right one. Its so hard to tell.
9
With ya, bud. Feeling the same thing now. I loved what I had, but in retrospect so many of my needs weren't being fulfilled that maybe my W never could fulfil them.
It doesn't stop me from missing her so much I cry. Rough times for us all.
Questions for you:
RE: "I am at a point in my sitch where I need to let things rest and just be..."
1. What SPECIFIC things are you going to STOP doing to achieve that?
RE: "I must let my W go for now..."
2. How are you going to do that?
RE: "I need to stop having contact with my W in order to do this..."
3. What methods of communication will you be using from now on?
RE: "I will use this time to try to learn more about myself..."
4. How are you going to learn about yourself?
RE: "Who I am..."
5. Who ARE you? What are your values?
RE: "I will use this time to look at what I want for my life..."
6. How?
RE: "What traits do I want in the person who I am with..."
If you don't know who you are, what you want and where you're going, how do you expect to recognize yourself? Know if what you have is what you want AND even know if you've reached your destination.
RE: "I need to figure these things out in my head and in my heart..."
To do that you need space. LOTS of it. If you can afford it, go away somewhere for at least ONE week. Don't tell anyone where you're going -- especially your WW. Give your contact details to ONE trusted person only and explicit instructions to only contact you in case of a BIG emergency. Then sit your @SS down and figure out some of these questions.
A man without a plan is a man adrift in the ocean and waiting for a wind to blow him in whatever direction it blows. (And the wind never blows in a single direction constantly)
thanks everyone for you responses.
Anyone watch Entourage tonight? The scene where Ari and his W talk about who she is dating during their S... Really hit home.
"You need to let me live my life. If there's any chance of us ever getting back together I need to explore other things."
hmmmmm...
Hey D...
I think someone stole my "like" button.......
A VERY LONG UPDATE... A LOT has happened in the past month... sorry
I haven't updated anything beyond what happened between W and I on July 3rd. I'm going to include the important stuff and try to keep this as short as possible.
July 4th - W, the kids and I went to W's S's and BIL's house for bbq and fireworks. We took that kids shopping for some fireworks to light earlier in the day. We also did lunch. Saw my dad and his W at the restaurant. W avoided them by going to the bathroom and then walking out to the car. She is very angry with my dad and his W for the way that they made her feel during our M/R.
July 5th - Took W and kids to dinner and a movie. W and I had R talk at dinner. W said that she doesn't know if she can feel the same about me and our M. That she wants to have a happy M and not just be 'content'. Doesn't know if that is possible with us. Said that she hopes that this month of hanging with me and the kids can help her recapture that feeling. I told W that I will not be around forever. She said that she understands that.
July 6th - R talk. Had telephone conversation with W about her moving into a new place at the end of July. She told me that she doesn't think that it is a good idea that she move back into our house and doesn't understand how I can possibly think that it is at this point. I agreed with her that I don't, but that it is also a difficult situation bc she will have to sign a 12 month lease somewhere. W and I took kids to dinner and then bowling and to play lasertag. We had a lot of fun together. W was smiling and laughing while bowling and player lasertag. Yet I could still sense the distance from her.
July 7th - Can't remember what we did exactly. No R talk. Just hanging out with W and the kids.
July 8th - I had to work for a few hours. W took my D for the day. I received a call from D's mom saying that D was upset that my W had gotten on to her for something. I called W to make sure that things were okay. W was not happy that my D had called her mom. I agreed with her bc it is something that my D does with me too. It undermines our R with my D. W and I talked more about it at dinner. Brief R talk... I told W that I would be talking to D about it. W said, 'why aren't we talking to her together?' I told her that we could.
July 9th - Went to Niece's birthday part with W and kids. W was very distant for most of the time. My D met one of BIL's cousins and became friends. They decided to have a sleepover at SIL and BIL's house. SS had planned to have a sleep over at his friend's house. W made plans to go out with one of her friends. I was home alone.
July 10th - I called SS in the morning to see when his friend's parents needed him to leave. He was staying at a friend's house who is literally across my backyard fence. I thought I would do this so that W could sleep in. SS told me that he needed to leave by noon. I told him to just come over to my house. W texted me a little later to see what I was up to. I told her that SS was coming over at noon. R talk... She flipped out. Asked me why I had made plans with her son without asking her. Told me that it was no longer my place to do things like that. I told her that her words and actions were inconsistent. That we act like a family and then I do something like this and she gets angry. She told me that we are not a family. Told me that if I did something like this again, she wouldn't have any contact with me. All of this was very inconsistent with W wanting to talk to my D together about the issue 2 days before. I did not bring that up though. I merely apologized and moved on.
I took SS to W's house a little later. I did not get out of the car. I waved at W. She told me to call her later after I picked my D up at SIL's. I picked my D up. Called W a bit later and told her what D and I were doing. Told her that she and SS could meet us. She agreed but said that she had plans later with a couple of her girlfriends. W and SS met D and I. I was very cold to W bc I was angry about the conversation from earlier. I'm sure that W noticed, but she did not say anything. W and SS left to go meet W's girlfriends about 30 minutes after meeting D and I. I did not speak to W again on this day.
July 11 - Didn't hang out with W. She spent the day trying to find a new place to live.
July 12 - Had long R talk with W on the phone. It started by her asking me if I would agree to let her have more of our furniture that she did not take in the first move. I told her that I'd have to think about it. W said that she doesn't feel ready to work on our M. She wishes that she knew why and she wishes that she knew how long it will take her. She doesn't know if she can feel the way that she used to about me and our M. Doesn't know if that will change with time.
She said she feels a lot of pressure bc she knows that I am waiting for her to make a decision. And she knows that she is distant when we are together. That she knows that I am frustrated bc I want to be close to her and that her distance hurts me.
She said that she enjoys the time we are spending together, but at the same time, it is emotionally draining bc she is thinking about 'us'. That going to hang out with her friends seems like a 'break' from that. Going out with her friends never felt like that before, bc she wanted to be with me. She doesn't feel like she wants to be around me all of the time like she used to.
I told her that I understand how she feels, but that it seems like she is trying NOT to want to work on things. I told her that I have suggested retrouvaille several times, but she refuses to consider it.
She said that she just doesn't feel ready to work on the M and that if we did something like that or MC, she feels that she would be trying to force it.
She said that she's not saying that it wouldn't be a good idea in the future, but only if and when she is ready.
She said that she is not happy about having to sign a 12 month lease, but she can't find any acceptable places that have shorter leases.
I told her again that I understand how she feels. That I am willing to be patient, but that I have to think about my own happiness too. That I am in limbo and I can't be here forever. That I am lonely and want to be with someone who wants to be with me. Who wants to be close to me.
She said that that is another thing, that I want something way different than I did when we were together... I want what she used to want from me... but now me wanting that life is even more of an adjustment for her.
She said that she knows that things can't go on like this forever. That eventually she needs to make a decision.
Went out with W and kids to dinner and a movie that night.
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July 13th - W watched my D for me while I worked. Later, I picked the kids up so that W could go meet her cousin to look at places to live. She and her cousin are going to live together to make things cheaper.
I took the kids for dinner and ice cream. W was on her way home and it began to storm. I met W at her place to drop SS off. W told me and D to go inside bc it was really raining and lightening. After a few minutes the storm lightened up. W asked me if I was going to stay for a little and if I wanted a drink. I told her taht I thought D and I would go. W made me a drink anyway. Ended up staying and talking to W on the front porch for about an hour. No R talk.
July 14 - My mom came up to visit my D and to stay at my house until I get back from Disney World. W had was hosting an open mic night at a wine bar right by my house. I went over there to watch W perform. My mom and D met me later. W was very cold to me and didn't spend much time talking to me. I know that she was hosting it and had to mingle a lot with the people who showed up, but it seemed as if she were trying to avoid me... almost to make a point that we are not together. My mom made a comment about that she was being rude to me. My mom and D left. I stayed until the show was over. W commented to me that I should have invited some of my friends so that I wouldn't have been so bored. I told her that I was fine. Afterwards, I headed home. W went home as well.
July 15th - SS had plans to go to a friend's house. I had told W earlier in the day to let me know if she wanted to go out for a drink bc my D would be spending time with my mom. W asked me if I wanted to go with her to watch her music partner (female friend) perform with her other band. I agreed. We drove up to where the show was. We watched her music partner's band until it ended at 9 p.m. We then decided to go to another blue's club to meet her music partner to watch another band. It seemed that we had a good time together. No R talk.
July 16th - W had a show in the mountains. She had to drive back bc our flight to Orlando was at 8 a.m. the next morning. I watched the kids.
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July 17-22 Disney World Trip
Overall it was a very fun trip. W and I shared a lot of time together. We did not sleep in the same bed. I didn't expect that we would, but we hadn't talked about it ahead of time either. When we got to the room, there was a uncomfortable silence about where we should put our things. W made the comment that she didn't think that it would be appropriate to share a bed. I merely agreed and told her 'whatever is comfortable for you'.
W, the kids and I spent most of the time together. We only separated a few times during the entire trip. The kids both gave us some troubles with behaving. SS was surprisingly good most of the time. My D struggled with following direction from my W. D would get in moods where she was rude to both me and W. At one point, W and I had a discussion with her about calling her mom and lying about what was going on. W led this convo. Later that night, W and I spoke. W talked about her R with my D and how it would probably 'always' be. Seemed to be talking future.
I noticed W call me 'honey' and 'sweetie' at two different times before...
On Tuesday, we went to a water park. We had a locker. W asked me to go get something for her out of the locker. I saw her cell phone. I checked her email and saw that she had exchanged a couple of emails with OM.
R talk... I confronted W immediately there at the park. W said that she has been in contact with OM. She said that she had not seen him. She said that she can't help it if she 'likes him'.
I told W that she hasn't been honest with me. W said that I have put her in a place where she doesn't feel like she can be honest with me. That I have backed her into a corner. That I gave her an ultimatum after I found OM sitting on her toilet back on May31. That it was unrealistic for her to agree to not having any contact with OM. That she has tried things my way. "I have tried doing what you told me to do" by not having any contact. She said that she has to do it her way. That she doesn't know what she wants. That both OM and I are 'in waiting' for her to make a decision.
I was p!ssed and walked away. I found a place to be by myself for a while. W took the kids and went down some water slides. I decided that I needed to pull it together and make the most of the rest of the trip.
We all went to dinner that evening. W and I did not speak much. When we got back to the hotel, W did not speak to me. She went to bed.
The next morning we spoke out on the patio of our hotel suite. R talk...
More talk about how she doesn't feel the same way about me. That I am trying to force things. I told her that I will not compete with OM. She said that it isn't a competition between me and OM. That she needs to decide IF she can forgive me AND IF SO, does she want to be with me. She told me that I was controlling and was p!ssed that I had looked at her email.
I pointed out that in the days prior to her leaving me, she looked at my email and found some emails from an ex girlfriend of mine. She said that I had given her the emails. I told her that that was ridiculous. I had never done that. Why would I have done that?? I told her not to be a hypocrite about the email thing. She did not reply bc she knew that I was right (I presume).
I told W that our entire trip was a mirage. She disagreed and said that she had been having a good time with me.
W then went on to remind me of all of the horrible stuff that I did to her during our R and M. She asked me if I ever really listened to the lyrics to the songs she wrote. She named 3 of them and told me specifically what thing that I did that each song was about. She reminded me of of me getting angry with her on our wedding night.
W then asked me if I were her would I give myself another chance. I told that I didn't know. That it was hard to put myself in that position. I told her based upon everything that I have learned since she left me, that 'yeah' I would give myself another chance.
The convo seemed to just die without any kind of resolution. But we were not as angry with each other at the end of it.
The rest of the trip went off without any more problems. We seemed to have a great time together. I will say that it was more like friends than a married couple though.
W had me rub sunscreen on her back 2 different times during the trip. Once before the email incident and once afterwards. This was hard for me bc I wanted to be close to her.
We went to the pool one day. I was playing with the kids. Dunking them, giving them rides on my shoulders etc. At one point W was standing with us next to the pool. I playfully pushed W in the pool along with the kids. W got very angry with me (she doesn't like the water all that much). I was upset. I was quiet for about 30 minutes. I apologized to W for having done that. I told her that, "I'm just looking for any way to be playful with you. To be close to you." and walked away.
W was no longer angry with me after I said that.
There were other small comments made by W that was 'future' talk IMO... this happened both before and after the email incident.
Both W and I were exhausted the last 2 days of the trip. There were no arguments between us though.
During the entire trip, with the exception of the email incident and the 12 hours after it, I managed to be fun and in a good mood. I did everything that I could do to make sure that the kids had a great time. I was patient with the kids and W when they were cranky. When I was cranky, I did not mention it or show it. I was playful and funny. I let the kids pick on me when they wanted to. I did everything that I could do to be the best dad and H that I could be.
On the last night, W said to me, "You haven't gotten me a souvenir." I had actually bought her a sun dress on the first day, but I didn't mention that. I just said, 'I know.' W said this after I had just bought the kids some souvenirs. I snuck off and purchased something really small for W.
W and I watched a movie together on the flight home. We laughed together when it was funny. We went to dinner with the kids and my mom once we got back to Denver.
That was the Disney trip...
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My 20 year high school reunion was the next day. My W had told me a couple of weeks earlier that she was not going to go and that she was going to take a show that had been offered to her bc she needed the money.
I drove to my hometown, Pueblo, on Saturday afternoon. My D drove down to Pueblo with my mom.
That afternoon, before the reunion, my W and I talked on the telephone. A friend of mine had died in a car accident a few days before. We talked about that and my reunion. W had another show on Monday night up in the mountains. It was an overnight show. She told me that OM was on the show. I didn't say anything other than thanks for letting me know.
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At my H.S. reunion, I ran into a girl that I had dated right around the same time that I began to date my W. I actually stopped dating this girl, who I will now call OW, when I started dating my W 8 1/2 years ago. OW is very, very attractive. She is one of the women that all the guys wanted to date in high school. She still looks great and was by far the best looking girl at the reunion. OW left the reunion early bc she had a going away party for one of her friends to go to.
An hour or so after OW left the reunion, I received a FB message from her. She did not have my telephone number at this point. She asked me where I was going after the reunion. I told her. She then asked me if she should come back to the reunion and go out with me and my friends. I told her that she should.
OW, some of my friends and I went out to a bar after the reunion. OW and I spent that time talking... just the two of us. She told me about her recent divorce. I told her the current status of my M.
While I was sitting at the bar talking to OW, W called me. It was about midnight. I did not answer. I stepped out of the bar and called W back about 20 minutes later. W told me that she was on her way home from her show and that she wanted to let me know that she was safe. I was thinking to myself that this was b.s. bc W has not called to let me know that she was safe after a show in months. W then asked me 'how many ex-girlfriends were at your reunion?' I told her that there were none. W then asked me who was with me at the bar. I did not tell her that OW was there. I just told her that I was there with my friends.
OW decided to leave and asked me if I wanted to have dinner the next night. I told her that would be great.
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I spoke with W briefly on Sunday afternoon after her rehearsal in Vail for her show on Monday. She was staying both Sunday and Monday night. She told me that OM was not staying on Sunday bc he had a show back in Denver, but that he was staying on Monday night. Again, I did not comment on this.
I went to dinner with OW on Sunday night. It was obviously a date. OW and I discussed how we were both nervous. We went back to her place after dinner and watched some t.v. We did kiss but nothing else.
We decided to do something on Monday night too.
I did not speak to W on Monday. Monday night OW and I went for a drink and saw a movie. Nothing happened other than a kiss goodnight.
I stayed in Pueblo on Tuesday night. Spoke with W that evening. I was not in a good mood about her having stayed in Vail with the band that included OM. I asked her about it. I asked her about how it went with OM. She asked me, 'what do you mean? Did we get along? Did we talk? Yeah." I asked her, "is there anything that I need to know?" W said, "No Denver. There's nothing that you need to know. This is not about OM."
I told W, "I'm just getting tired of living this way W."
W and I talked about plans to go to dinner with her family on Wednesday night so that they could see my D before she flew home on Thursday morning.
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D and I met W and her family for dinner at PF Changs. I was not in a good mood. I was sad about D leaving. I was feeling awkward with W bc I could sense that she had distanced herself from me over the weekend. I was feeling guilty about having gone out with OW two times while in Pueblo.
W was also very distant from me. I asked W if something was wrong with her. She said that there wasn't, but that I was making her feel uncomfortable around her family bc I was 'zoning out'. I told her that I hadn't realized I was. I tried to pull it together and act normal, but I was very sad. I went to the bathroom a couple of times bc I felt that I was going to have a breakdown.
We went to W's sister's house for ice cream after dinner. I did not speak to W very much at all while there. At one point though, W asked me to text her my D's phone number so that SS could have it. I said that I would, but didn't do it right then. W asked me why I was being weird about it. I said that I wasn't that she and I would need to talk about it. W was irritated.
After about an hour or so, I told D to say goodbye to everyone, that we were going to go home and pack her stuff. W and SS decided to leave too and followed us out the door. I saw W bend down to talk to my D. W then got into her car.
I went over to where W was sitting in her car. I asked her what she had told my D.
W: "I told her the truth. I told her that I loved her and that I may not talk to her again if things don't work out between us."
She sounded irritated. This set off a big R talk.
W said that I was being weird about not wanting to text her my D's phone number to her. That it was controlling behavior and that she wasn't going to let me hold that over her head.
I asked her what she meant. She said that I was using the threat of her not being able to have contact with my D if she doesn't come back to me.
I told her that wasn't what I was doing. That my D's mom would not be happy about me giving D's phone # to her and that I had just said that we needed to talk about it.
I then told her that I was angry. That she should have been with me and my D on my trip to Pueblo for my high school reunion. I said something about us being a family. She responded that we are not a family. I said, 'yeah, you are right. We are not a family because you won't try."
W was clearly irritated. She said, "This just isn't working for me. This isn't working." She went on to say that she just doesn't feel the same way about me and our M.
She told me that she has tried and had hoped that our trip to Disney would produce a spark, but there wasn't. That there is no connection between us. That she and I are just in two different places. She said, "you won't be patient." "You want to force things." "You keep smothering me". "I am angry with you... and irritated." "You bug me about OM and my shows... which is understandable... but annoying."
I then told her, "Well, I need to tell you that I've decided to start dating W."
W got angry. She said, "I really don't care". She then asked me who I was going to date. I told her that it was OW who I had ran into at my h.s. reunion. That is was a OW that I have known since kindergarten.
W said that was "pathetic". "is it one of the b!tches that you keep in contact with on FB?". I didn't have a chance to answer her 'yes'. She said, "well, I think that we should just file for D."
W then said, "I'm not going to let you hold this over my head."
I told W that was not what I was trying to do. That I was trying to be honest with her. And that I needed to tell her tonight bc I had planned on going out with OW the next night.
I told W that I can't continue to live the way that I've been living. That I am lonely. That it isn't even the physical aspect that I miss, it is the companionship. I told her that I miss being close to someone. That I wanted so badly to be close to her while we were on her trip. That I just wanted to hold her.
I told her that OW had texted me after my h.s. reunion to see if I made to my sister's house safely and asked W, "do you know how nice it felt to have someone care whether or not I was okay, W?" W responded, "Yeah, I do. Because for 8 years you didn't give a sh!t. I was lonely for years in our M."
I told W, "I"m sorry that I made you feel like that for one second. But I can't continue to live like this."
W then changed what she was saying. She said to me, "Do you really think it is fair of you to date this woman when things are the way that they are? Don't you think that you need some time by yourself to heal? I mean, if you are really friends with her and have known her for so long?"
I told W that I have been completely honest with OW about everything.
W then calmed down a bit. We talked more about how she doesn't feel the same about me that she used to. She reminded me that she had told me when she first dropped the bomb that she wasn't the type of person who could go back to 'that' ... 'remember when I told you that I was not in love with you and I told you that I wasn't the type of person that could go back?'
W told me that she couldn't "go back to that house" feeling like she does. That she is excited about having her own place. That it has been nice not living "under your shadow" and nice to have taken care of herself. She said that she doesn't want to go back to "that".
I reminded her that I have not been asking her to go back to the way that things were.
I told her that I feel like I've been beating my head against a wall. That I would not have fought so hard for the past 8 months if I didn't believe with all of my heart that she and I were capable of having a great marriage together.
I told her that I am frustrated bc she hasn't given us a chance. That I feel that she hasn't tried. She responded that she feels that she has "at times". She then told me that she has listened to religious sermons that her mom gave her on M and that she has prayed a lot.
W said "you seem to think that you have it all figured out. Well, I don't."
She said that she simply isn't there. That we are in two separate places. W told me that she sees that I have changed but there are things about me that haven't. I asked her 'what things?' She told me that I am still very controlling and that she doesn't like that about me. And then she told me that she thinks that some of the things that i have changed were things that drew her to me in the first place. 'unhealthy things' that she says are probably the result of 'my childhood'. I asked her sarcastically if she wanted me to go back to being an 'a$$hole' ... she said 'no, of course not.'
Then she went on to say that she hopes that I am happy. That if that is with someone else then that will make her happy. She said, "or maybe we reconnect down the road" but again, she is not ready for that.
I then said, "then there is nothing left to talk about." I moved away from her car and went over to where the kids were. I hugged SS, told him that I love him and to call me if he needs me. My D and SS hugged goodbye. My D and I drove away. W and SS drove away and were behind us.
My D wanted me to slow down so she could wave at W and SS. I did and rolled down the passenger window. W and SS caught up. D waved at them and they waved back. W had a sick look on her face. She was obviously upset ... either angry, sad... something.
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My D flew home early the next, Thursday, morning. That night I went out with OW. W texted me at 11:30 p.m. "Did D make it home safely?"
I ignored the text for a couple of hours and finally responded, "yes, she did".
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On Friday W initiated brief text convo:
W: "I need you to let me know if I can take the furniture I asked about and if I can do that Monday. Based on our last conversation, I'm not sure what you want me to do. I just need to make a plan."
Me: "If you need the pieces that we talked about, then take them. We will sort it out later."
W: "It would be nice to have those items. We obviously will have to discuss several things in the future though."
Me: "Yeah."
W: "If you want to talk next week we can. I'm sorry the conversation was like it was the other night. I do want you happy Denver."
I did not respond.
W texted me again a bit later: "I will be by on Monday at 11 a.m. to get the furniture. I'm going to take my buddah statute and my plant stand fro the back yard also."
I did not respond.
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I did not speak to W on Saturday. I know that she had another out of town over night gig in the mountains.
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W texted me yesterday (Sunday): "I will be at your place at 11 tomorrow. Will you be there?"
Me: "I may come back from court to pick up the dogs. I'd offer to help move the furniture out of the house, but I will be in a suit."
W: "I have some guys from school coming to help. Thanks though. Just want to stay out of your way."
I did not reply.
-----------------
W called me this morning bc she was having trouble getting into the house. As she was telling me, she was able to open the garage door. I merely said, 'okay' and 'talk to you later'.
I went to my house a few hours later to see the empty spaces where a few items of furniture had resided just hours before.
---------------------------
So that brings my situation up to date.
---------------------
About OW - I hung out with her again on Sunday morning and afternoon. We went out for brunch and then went back to my house. We fell asleep on the couch watching t.v. When I woke up, I looked at her and couldn't believe that it was not my W.... I felt sad that it was not my W.
OW just got a job up in Denver and is moving up here and staying with a friend of her's who lives about 10 minutes from me.
I find myself comparing her to W constantly. I find myself feeling guilty for being with her.
We have not had sex, but we have kissed. And it is certainly heading in that direction.
We exchange a lot of text messages back and forth.
She is extremely nice to me and obviously is happy talking to me and spending time with me.
She told me the other night that she wished that I was there with her.
She likes my dogs... whereas my W was never a fan.
It is nice to have someone care about me and WANT to be with me... to WANT to share their time with me, and WANT me to touch them.
Yet... I still want my W. I am beginning to ask myself 'why?'
-----------------------
My thoughts -
W sounds like she has made her decision. That her decision is to be by herself. I still do not believe that this was ever a choice bw OM and I.
I believe that there is more to it... I believe that it is a choice of lifestyle for W. I believe that she does not want the responsibility of being M'd right now. That she is enjoying being able to have freedom to do what she wants when she wants. That the choice was THIS vs. going back to me and risking going back to the way things were.
But... OM is still in the picture and I am sure that W will gravitate back to him.
A couple of things that I have accepted over the past month:
1) My M is over. For my W it has been over for 9 months. I am the only one who has been clinging to the idea that I have been trying to 'save' anything. W is divorced from me in her mind... she is, and has been, emotionally D'd from me. The only thing keeping us M'd is a piece of paper. IF we are ever to reconcile, it will be the result of a brand new R. This R will have to be built from the ground up.
This has caused me to ask myself if that is something that I want to do with W. It seems much easier to just begin fresh with someone new.
2) Any R with W is impossible until she has OM completely out of her system. I have read on this board for months that an A is like a drug. It is. I do believe what W said... that she has tried not having any contact with OM.. and it has not worked. Why? Bc of the way that OM makes her feel. It is still a relatively new R that was cut short by W's doubts back in February and March. Her attempts to stop cold turkey have not worked. She will have to go back and let that R work towards a natural end... or naturally continue into something more serious.
I can have no place in this process for this to happen.
In the meantime, right now, I am in hell. I feel that my W has left me all over again. I feel that I have been knocked back to where I was in Nov/Dec/Jan. Words cannot express the hole that I feel in my heart and the emptiness that I feel.
----------------
I know that this is a very long update/post. Thanks for reading if you made it through.
BITS
Denver
Denver,
I have been following your story since January and I have had so many similar things happen to me this past month, even the same words from my H about being scared, etc. Only difference is we still have a physical R.
I kept reading your above post in hopes that it would be a positive outcome that you have worked so hard for. I was also hoping that something in it would help click for me too.
You do have a positive outcome though. You have moved forward and accepted what is.
I hope to be a fortunate as you and come to that acceptance stage.
It seems as if you are embarking on a new future with so much knowledge that your next R with another W will benefit from.
Best of luck--
Denver,
I only have one thing to say. You're a great person deserving of love but you have not db'ed...
Absolutly no space given AND she she has dirsespected you, your family, and herself by continued communication with OM.
R talk after R talk after R talk... Geez...
Let her go completely... See OW if you can be fair to her.
Your W is being clear...
Your assessment is correct... MOVE ON...
Denver,
I have been following your story since January and I have had so many similar things happen to me this past month, even the same words from my H about being scared, etc. Only difference is we still have a physical R.
I kept reading your above post in hopes that it would be a positive outcome that you have worked so hard for. I was also hoping that something in it would help click for me too.
You do have a positive outcome though. You have moved forward and accepted what is.
I hope to be a fortunate as you and come to that acceptance stage.
It seems as if you are embarking on a new future with so much knowledge that your next R with another W will benefit from.
Best of luck--
I wish that I were in the acceptance stage...
Wow Denver.
Not a good month of DB'ing brother.
W commented to me that I should have invited some of my friends so that I wouldn't have been so bored. I told her that I was fine.
Denver, this comment had nothing to do with how you, it shows how your W was/is feeling. It made HER uncomfortable.
And really, this sums up much of your sitch.
Your W on stage while you sit there watching her.
How does this look?
You need to be consistent, and right now I see anything but. Between your words one day to the next, and between your words and your actions.
So what leads to the inconsistency? Have your changes been real? Or have you been just acting like the guy you think your W wants?
This may be a tough question to answer.
Wow Denver.
Not a good month of DB'ing brother.
W commented to me that I should have invited some of my friends so that I wouldn't have been so bored. I told her that I was fine.
Denver, this comment had nothing to do with how you, it shows how your W was/is feeling. It made HER uncomfortable.
And really, this sums up much of your sitch.
Your W on stage while you sit there watching her.
How does this look?
You need to be consistent, and right now I see anything but. Between your words one day to the next, and between your words and your actions.
So what leads to the inconsistency? Have your changes been real? Or have you been just acting like the guy you think your W wants?
This may be a tough question to answer.
You are right about the show CS... but she did invite me and my D. And she USED to like when I'd sit and watch her on stage. Of course that is in the distant past I suppose.
I have been inconsistent, but at the same time, I have been getting multiple mixed signals from my W. She says one thing one day, and another the next. It makes it very difficult to know what she wants or doesn't want from me.
I need to let go until she figures out what SHE wants in her life.
Denver,
I agreed with her that I don't, but that it is also a difficult situation bc she will have to sign a 12 month lease somewhere.
I told her that I understand how she feels, but that it seems like she is trying NOT to want to work on things. I told her that I have suggested retrouvaille several times, but she refuses to consider it.
That I am willing to be patient, but that I have to think about my own happiness too.
"I"m sorry that I made you feel like that for one second. But I can't continue to live like this."
But's tend to destroy all the words in front of them. It invalidates them.
Just pointing it out, not beating you down.
Or lessens them...
We did kiss but nothing else.
We kissed.
I'm not sure I'd be ok with my wife kissing another man...even if they did nothing else.
I wasn't ok with it when all they did was kiss. Just saying.
Brother, in some ways the OW is going to be a distraction from your wife that will help you...its going to cost you, it'll cost her.
She'll help you dettach and go dark, she already has...or rather, you thinking of her has allowed you to do so.
And when you truly leave your wife alone?
Let her make up her own mind...well man, I think your going to see what I mean about cost later.
It hurts.
You're not your own man, as super fly cool as this lady might be, she is a crutch for your desire to feel needed, wanted and attractive.
You're already comparing her to your wife.
You're short changing this woman, unless she is ok with that, and this is nothing more than physical desires being met.
The stove is hot Denver.
I'm not juding you, pitfalls and pain is all. I'd spare you that, and the guilt from pain you make.
The watching the show comment was meant as more of a metaphor.
I have been inconsistent, but at the same time, I have been getting multiple mixed signals from my W
But see Denver, this is exactly what I mean. Your actions seem to be reactions to her.
I'm not trying to bash you. You've been in this 'tweener spot for a while now, and I have not experienced it. I am sure it is very tough.
The watching the show comment was meant as more of a metaphor.
I have been inconsistent, but at the same time, I have been getting multiple mixed signals from my W
But see Denver, this is exactly what I mean. Your actions seem to be reactions to her.
I'm not trying to bash you. You've been in this 'tweener spot for a while now, and I have not experienced it. I am sure it is very tough.
Very tough. But you are right CS. I have not been consistent. Or rather... I was not consistent. I am starting over now it seems.
Just a follow up on Jacks post.
Tread carefully with OW.
You know I did this early on. I had the same feelings then that you are having now. I compared her. Knew deep down I had nothing to give her. It was nothing but a distraction.
And I just posted something similar.
There are positive distractions and negative ones.
Getting your mind off of your W may be a positive one.
But it will also distract from you.
I have just entered a phase of feeling happy just with me again.
I know for me, I'm just going to hold onto this for a while. It's what I need right now.
If I decide to "get back out there" again, and TBH I have thought about it. I know for me. I will do so with a different attitude than I did the first time.
It won't be to distract. It won't be to get a reaction out of W. It will simply be.
Just perhaps answer these same questions yourself.
Denver is #1 right now.
Denver,
don't have much to add that hasn't already been said, other than I think I understand where you are in your sitch. Many parallels to mine. OM that's more a crutch than anything else. W who needs time to herself to figure out what she wants in life. Missing the companionship (that's the hardest part for me right now).
You're a work in progress, Denver 2.0. Recognize what you need to work on, work on it, know you'll mess up and get back on track.
Just a follow up on Jacks post.
Tread carefully with OW.
You know I did this early on. I had the same feelings then that you are having now. I compared her. Knew deep down I had nothing to give her. It was nothing but a distraction.
And I just posted something similar.
There are positive distractions and negative ones.
Getting your mind off of your W may be a positive one.
But it will also distract from you.
I have just entered a phase of feeling happy just with me again.
I know for me, I'm just going to hold onto this for a while. It's what I need right now.
If I decide to "get back out there" again, and TBH I have thought about it. I know for me. I will do so with a different attitude than I did the first time.
It won't be to distract. It won't be to get a reaction out of W. It will simply be.
Just perhaps answer these same questions yourself.
Denver is #1 right now.
Well said CS. Thanks.
LP... thanks.
Denver,
I truly feel for you today. I just found out my w is dating (saw a hicky on her neck).
Maybe it wasn't the best DBing month for you but I understand how hard it is sometimes. I definitely didn't DB today. Some days the pain just gets the better of us. We don't mean to react.. but we're human.
You won't receive any 2x4 from me but I will ask you this. Who is that you want to be? Does your w, r, or m stop you from that in this moment? If so, what needs to be done so you can continue to become the best Denver possible?
I'm asking myself all these questions now.. because although I am human.. I hate that today.. I LET my w take away all the hard work I have been doing.
my .02 ((HUGS))
It's really just the same rush that your wife got from OM.
You realize that, right?
The truth is that life [censored] no matter which direction you pursue right now. Your wife is not capable of being the woman you NEED her to be. And your relationship with your new friend...
Well, maybe it turns out to be THE relationship for you. On the other hand, it might turn out that once the "rush" is over, and your tender ego has been stroked sufficiently...it might then turn out to be that your wife is still the only woman that you want.
Blessings,
Bill
Blah, blah, blah, blah . . . yadda, yadda, yadda . . .
. . .
I told W that she hasn't been honest with me. W said that I have put her in a place where she doesn't feel like she can be honest with me. That I have backed her into a corner. That I gave her an ultimatum after I found OM sitting on her toilet back on May31. That it was unrealistic for her to agree to not having any contact with OM. That she has tried things my way. "I have tried doing what you told me to do" by not having any contact. She said that she has to do it her way. That she doesn't know what she wants. . . .
A: "Then it looks like I have my answer."
Blah, blah, blah . . . yadda, yadda, yadda.
THERE. Fixed it for you.
Seriously, Denver (and I'm not trying to minimize your pain, because i can FEEL it oozing from your posts), everything else in there really IS just extra bullchit, and the part that I've culled is what it really DOES all boil down to.
Your wife doesn't feel "it" for you right now.
Your wife is still in contact with OM.
As long as your wife is in contact with OM, she WON'T feel "it" for you, and will remain blocked to your changes (even when you do pull them off).
It's a vicious circle, Denver, and this is why some of us believe so strongly that the time for boundaries is EARLY, not later on, when you feel a wayward spouse is ready to hear them. Your wife has this way of "fuzzying up" everything, and parsing, and you need to hone it back in to this simple point:
"This isn't working for me; I won't share my wife with another man, and I see no reason to even discuss our marriage when one of us has made the unilateral decision to invite a third person into it."No long R talks; no expensive family vacations; no family outings where we all pretend everything is OK. She needs to feel the loss of you, and you've NEVER, EVER allowed her to do that from what I can see, and until you do, she's going to keep dangling you on the string, and you're going to continue your misery.
Starsky
I told W that I will not be around forever.
Yes, you have
told her this, many (dozens?) of times.
Your
actions say otherwise.
Starsky
Yes, you have told her this, many (dozens?) of times.
Your actions say otherwise.
Well said, words of wisdom ^^^^^
Denver i have been following your posts from Jan but rarely posted on your sitch.
I can relate to your being in 'hell'. But i wonder if it is because you really miss your W or is it because now you have OW and you are scared to move forward in that direction.
At some point, make your decision, make peace with it no matter what and move on. If you make peace to move on with OW, then move on in that direction. I think, then your interactions with your W will reduce because you are enjoying a new R. Who knows...your W may really miss you and try to come back.
Don't try to split your heart in two right now. Your W made is clear about herself. Lucky that you still have OW. I agree with others about threading carefully here. But if you are looking for some companionship and if being with OW might reduce your pain a bit, then go on that route and be happy.
"this is why some of us believe so strongly that the time for boundaries is EARLY, not later on"
Adultery is wrong...
And in our pain...
Our desire to keep our S...
We are too ready to overlook the lies...
The cheating...
The ultimate disrespect...
Forgive without accountability or consequence...
And we allow them to place ALL the blame on us...
Sorry, doesn't work that way!
Boundaries First... M second!
Agree with everyone who advocates setting boundaries. How can someone love you if they can't respect you? How can they respect you if you don't respect yourself?
When I found out H was continuing with OW, I said, "You cannot do that while you live here, and you cannot live here while you do that."
He's now moved out. Is he continuing with OW? Yes. Do I have to know about it under my roof? No. Is it good for me? Yes. Does it possibly give him time to reflect on what being alone, only seeing his S 3 times a week, and only having an "online" relationship is like? I hope so.
"this is why some of us believe so strongly that the time for boundaries is EARLY, not later on"
Adultery is wrong...
And in our pain...
Our desire to keep our S...
We are too ready to overlook the lies...
The cheating...
The ultimate disrespect...
Forgive without accountability or consequence...
And we allow them to place ALL the blame on us...
Sorry, doesn't work that way!
Boundaries First... M second!
SBH - Please don't use my thread to promote your philosophy on this stuff. I get your position on all of it. By all means, start a new thread so it can be discussed.
I don't mean to be a jerk about this, but I'm tired of being told how to define my W's R with OM... and I'm tired of being told that I am weak for handling my situation the way that I've handled it.
I have a different view of things... MY situation. That's all.
The reason that I am responding this way SBH is because your post is more of a sermon on adultery, how it is wrong, and how it shouldn't be put up with, than it is an opinion on how I should proceed in my particular sitch...
Which I believe that you stated in your previous post... 'MOVE ON'...
So I get it. But I don't think that you fully understand my particular situation or my position on all of this.
Thanks,
Denver
Could debate the merits of both, and it would be interesting.
It would be even better if the poster could actually follow the advice 100%.
That is seldom the case.
Rather than would have been better to do earlier? Cause in that game lets go back 8 years then. Let focus on the now.
"this is why some of us believe so strongly that the time for boundaries is EARLY, not later on"
Adultery is wrong...
And in our pain...
Our desire to keep our S...
We are too ready to overlook the lies...
The cheating...
The ultimate disrespect...
Forgive without accountability or consequence...
And we allow them to place ALL the blame on us...
Sorry, doesn't work that way!
Boundaries First... M second!
SBH - Please don't use my thread to promote your philosophy on this stuff. I get your position on all of it. By all means, start a new thread so it can be discussed.
I don't mean to be a jerk about this, but I'm tired of being told how to define my W's R with OM... and I'm tired of being told that I am weak for handling my situation the way that I've handled it.
I have a different view of things... MY situation. That's all.
The reason that I am responding this way SBH is because your post is more of a sermon on adultery, how it is wrong, and how it shouldn't be put up with, than it is an opinion on how I should proceed in my particular sitch...
Which I believe that you stated in your previous post... 'MOVE ON'...
So I get it. But I don't think that you fully understand my particular situation or my position on all of this.
Thanks,
Denver
^^^^
thanks Jack... but maybe we could debate the merits of both on a different thread. I'm in no mood to debate it here.
I hesitate to post because you probably won't like what I'm going to say but here goes.
You are losing respect for yourself and your M with your dalliance.
Granted your W hasn't shown you much, but since time you simply haven't given her that chance. You've been in her face numerous times asking for her to make a decision. She wants time. You can't even respect that. How can she trust you with your other "changes?"
You have been doing this for what 7 months tops. She had to live with years of you hurting her, from her point of view. I say this not to keep score but for you to understand where she is coming from. You can't fix that in a few months.
So then what is your reaction to it. You do the EXACT thing that she did to hurt you so much. You found yourself a playdate. I don't know if it was for ego, or companionship, or to get back at her or because you really connected with the OW. But the point is you went back on your word, you were deceitful and dishonest about it.
The OW seems to have something going on. I think you rightfully called out the OM because he was pursing a married woman. Yet this is what your OW is doing pursing a married man.
Now all this stuff about boundaries is just words...for both of you.
The whole "just be" speech should have been without the presences of the OW. Now R is impossible for both of you with the presence of OPs.
I dunno. It's your life and your consequences. I do hope you find peace and find it for the right reasons.
"this is why some of us believe so strongly that the time for boundaries is EARLY, not later on"
Adultery is wrong...
And in our pain...
Our desire to keep our S...
We are too ready to overlook the lies...
The cheating...
The ultimate disrespect...
Forgive without accountability or consequence...
And we allow them to place ALL the blame on us...
Sorry, doesn't work that way!
Boundaries First... M second!
SBH - Please don't use my thread to promote your philosophy on this stuff. I get your position on all of it. By all means, start a new thread so it can be discussed.
I don't mean to be a jerk about this, but I'm tired of being told how to define my W's R with OM... and I'm tired of being told that I am weak for handling my situation the way that I've handled it.
I have a different view of things... MY situation. That's all.
The reason that I am responding this way SBH is because your post is more of a sermon on adultery, how it is wrong, and how it shouldn't be put up with, than it is an opinion on how I should proceed in my particular sitch...
Which I believe that you stated in your previous post... 'MOVE ON'...
So I get it. But I don't think that you fully understand my particular situation or my position on all of this.
Thanks,
Denver
^^^^ I'm quoting the above just so it doesn't get missed.
Harrier... I think that you are right. Unfortunately. OW and I made a connection because we went to school together literally from kindergarten through h.s. graduation. We reconnected about 9 years ago and went on a few dates. I met W and ended things with OW. This is why it was so easy for OW and I to make a connection during my h.s. reunion weekend.
Do I think it is a mistake? I'm beginning to.
I've been at this for going on 9 months. I'm frustrated. I'm hurt. And quite frankly, I'm running out of emotional fuel... All of this is causing me to consider other things.
The bottom line, whether or not I pursue anything with OW, is that I need to move on with my life as if W will not be a part of it. I need to let her live her life and see where the chips fall.
My biggest concerns with OW are:
1) that I hurt OW needlessly
2) that I go back on what I have stood for for the past 8-9 months... i.e. that I do exactly what my W did when she left me (as you point out).
I am struggling right now. That's all I can say. Trying to figure it all out.
BITS
Denver
I will respect your wishes Denver.
But I DO understand your position, it is no different than anyone else's...
I can understand why my statement 'move on' upset you. Your W has been saying it for 8 months and you just won't. You just didn't.
You have come to the DB board but you don't DB... I truly believe that had you DB'ed for any length of time you and your W would be in a better place, and still could be. But I understand you don't need my opinion.
Boundaries are not my 'philosophy'. They are part of DB.
Anyway, it appears your way is working for you.
Good luck...
SBH Out...
SBH - Please don't use my thread to promote your philosophy on this stuff. I get your position on all of it. By all means, start a new thread so it can be discussed.
I don't mean to be a jerk about this, but I'm tired of being told how to define my W's R with OM... and I'm tired of being told that I am weak for handling my situation the way that I've handled it.
I have a different view of things... MY situation. That's all.
Denver,
Since you never responded to either of my posts, I'm going to assume you're including me in this as well, and I'm going to bow out. It's pretty clear that the type of advice I'm giving to you is only aggravating you, and that's the last thing I want right now, as you're in enough pain already.
I will continue to follow along, and do pray for you often, for your success. If I'm misunderstanding, just let me know.
thanks,
Starsky
I will respect your wishes Denver.
But I DO understand your position, it is no different than anyone else's...
I can understand why my statement 'move on' upset you. Your W has been saying it for 8 months and you just won't. You just didn't.
You have come to the DB board but you don't DB... I truly believe that had you DB'ed for any length of time you and your W would be in a better place, and still could be. But I understand you don't need my opinion.
Boundaries are not my 'philosophy'. They are part of DB.
Anyway, it appears your way is working for you.
Good luck...
SBH Out...
Your sarcasm doesn't go unnoticed SBH.
Your statement to 'move on' didn't upset me SBH. That is a very valid opinion on my situation. What I don't want to get into here any longer is what is and what isn't an 'affair' ... nor do I want to get into a convo on how out of M R's with OPs should never be tolerated. Every situation is different.
Boundaries are a part of DB, but only if they are used correctly. I haven't done it correctly in the past. We can debate whether or not I should have done this or that... and when I should have done this or that... all day.
The bottom line is that I am where I am.
AND, I will say that even if others think that I should have drawn a line in the sand long ago, I KNOW that I have given my W a long look at some serious changes in myself that she would not have had a chance to see if I had not spent as much time with her as I have over the past several months.
For the most part, she saw a Denver that is much different than the Denver she left. Not everything that needs to be changed with Denver has been... but a lot has. She saw it, she acknowledges it, and hopefully, it will give her something to think about as time goes by.
Will I still be there if that happens? I don't know any longer. I am trying to move on with my life the best that I can as if she will not be a part of it. I'm going to let her live her life so that she can figure her issues out.
I simply don't want to debate whether or not she is having an affair or whether or not I should have or should be setting some sort of boundary.
Denver
SBH - Please don't use my thread to promote your philosophy on this stuff. I get your position on all of it. By all means, start a new thread so it can be discussed.
I don't mean to be a jerk about this, but I'm tired of being told how to define my W's R with OM... and I'm tired of being told that I am weak for handling my situation the way that I've handled it.
I have a different view of things... MY situation. That's all.
Denver,
Since you never responded to either of my posts, I'm going to assume you're including me in this as well, and I'm going to bow out. It's pretty clear that the type of advice I'm giving to you is only aggravating you, and that's the last thing I want right now, as you're in enough pain already.
I will continue to follow along, and do pray for you often, for your success. If I'm misunderstanding, just let me know.
thanks,
Starsky
Ugh...
I'm not asking anyone to bow out. I simply don't want the same retread statements on how affairs should never be tolerated.
Maybe this is a better way of stating it...
I do not view my W's R with OM as an Affair... It is a R that she allowed to happen after she left me with the intention of moving on with her life. All that was left of our M when she left was a piece of paper... that is all that is left of it now. I am not religious, so I do not view things from that perspective.
So let's not debate the above.
I have not responded to your posts Starsky, because I simply don't have any answers right now. It's not that I haven't read them or considered them. I really haven't responded to any posts on this thread until SBH's.
I'm aggravated right now bc I am frustrated with my situation and my inability to successfullly reconcile my M. I feel like a prisoner who has had a steak dinner put within inches of his reach for 5 months, only to have it taken away before he had a chance to eat it.
That's why I am so aggravated. Not because of anyone on this board.
I appreciate everyone here.... yes, you Starsky ... and SBH.
Denver
D,
Just a thought here , and I hope you don't mind.....
The OW....
Often , when we go through something like this, we seek that external validation, mostly to know that we aren't as terrible as we have been accused of.
The normal human instinct is, that we seek that from the opposite sex.
Things , because of the situation , can easily become out of hand , and we end up actually getting that from a person that we ultimately do not want it from....
But because of our own hurt , betrayal , loneliness, etc , we allow ourselves to fall into that trap.
We end up 'connecting' with a person that has seen similar pain in their life , and that becomes a lifeline from them.
What usually happens, is that what we end up taking from that person, is the emotional connection that we seek from our wayward spouses.
Is what you are getting from OW, what you want from your wife ?
What voice do you "hear" when she speaks ?
This is one fo the reasons that the failure rate for second and third marriages is so freakin high...
We start something before we are healed fully from the past.
Is that fair to the OW ?
Better yet, is that fair to YOU ?
I know this story well my friend , as many here have also known.
Please consider that innocent people will get hurt...
I will also pass along something, the way it was put to me.....
Do not , let your wife off the hook for this.....
Sorry for the sarcasm.. It was out of line...
Let's forget any idea of an A... It really makes no difference..
What angers me is your W continually telling half truths and/or lying about OM over and over... And she blames YOU...
And she continues to talk/email/see him... It's disrespectful... And NO ONE deserves being treated that way...
My problem is I put myself in your shoes and imagine your pain.. I even feel it to some degree.
But I believe you're right Denver.
My advice and my way of thinking will never fit you or your sitch.
So I will respectfully and with 100% sincerity sit on the sidelines and watch...
And pray for you.
Denver,
When my wife finally moved out, I ran as fast as I could to find the next "wife" for me. I ended up meeting the most wonderful woman you could imagine. She was everything I wanted. Everything that was missing in my marriage. It was the best 8 months I ever could imagine. Then it happened...My insomnia, my anxiety everything came back. I thought that i wasn't in love. I broke it off. i ran from her. I spent the next 3 months staring at the walls wondering why I couldn't love, why I couldn't feel anything. I called her up, she took me back. Things still weren't exactly right until it finally hit me...
I am not healed yet. I had built up so many walls in my marriage so I wouldn't get hurt. I didn't like the person I became. If I didn't like myself or I didn't feel whole, how can I be with someone else and share a life. To Mach's point, you have to heal yourself. I am lucky that I this woman that i met is understanding and patient. She has been through it herself. But there is a reason why second marriages fail so much. People aren't ready..The OW fills a void and they don't need to go through all the stages. Well, you do have to go through all the stages. Otherwise, it will come back to haunt you later...I tried skipping a few and it came back to haunt me....
Take your time, slow down. Learn how to live again. Learn what makes you happy. If this OW is worth it, she will understand and be patient with you.
But don't rush into things. You need to heal. You may not even understand what part needs healing, but it hit me like a ton of bricks when it did...
D
I think you burn up the emotional fuel by having too many R talks. (Oh how I know) I think that is one good reason to avoid them. I can see you are on empty with a lot of things - patience, loneliness, etc.
That's why I think people were suggesting some sort of time out. it was as much for you as for your W. It's hard to sit and just wait and watch. But sometimes that's all there is to do.
But with the time out, you have to distract yourself (with things other than the OW) Heck you live in Colorado. Go camping for a long weekend where there is no cell service.
This time apart is a gift to you and the M. If you look at it that way it's hard to be resentful of that kind of gift.
At times, it feels like we are hostages to our W's "decision." But in reality we too have a choice. We are choosing to continue.
BTW I relate to your story. I knew a girl from when I went to elementary school. We got along great and when I saw her at my reunion we picked up like the years were never between us (Although it was purely platonic so I viewed her more as sisterly)
And she continues to talk/email/see him... It's disrespectful... And NO ONE deserves being treated that way...
^^^^ This part we can certainly agree on. That is why I am removing myself from the situation for now.
Is that fair to the OW ?
Better yet, is that fair to YOU ?
Probably not Mach.
I will also pass along something, the way it was put to me.....
Do not , let your wife off the hook for this.....
I must be dense. I don't get your meaning with this ^^^.
I will also pass along something, the way it was put to me.....
Do not , let your wife off the hook for this.....
I must be dense. I don't get your meaning with this ^^^.
I am sure your brain hurts....
But I am gonna let you think about what this means to you for a while.....
Denver
My 2p (English money LOL)
I agree with harriers opening paragraph
It must be draining to have sooooooo many R talks, and do we get out of it what we hope, want or yern for........
A lot of the time the answer is a big fat NO
Stand back........
Take time out for Denver, figure out what YOU want out of life, M and a partner.
I am not got got to preach, or say what you should have done, IMHO you have always done what you think is best for your own individual situation, and whilst that hadn't always been the db way, It has been your way....so respect to that......
Time to reflect now
Recharge YOU
GAL
Be happy in yourself
"
I am not got got to preach, or say what you should have done, IMHO you have always done what you think is best for your own individual situation, and whilst that hadn't always been the db way, It has been your way....so respect to that......"
GAL MAN
i agree with him, absolutely!
i think you surely need to modify dbing to your own situation
you are the only one who truly knows your wife
i feel your pain, my friend
you are not alone, and you know there is a better day and a better nights sleep ahead
for both of us
xo
Denver
Just make sure you tell the OW what you are thinking. You might be suprised at the response you get. She may understand and be able to deal with things better if she knew where your head was at.
My W, did the same as you. Not moving in with him. But the same. I didn't take the emotional hit till just a few months ago. Almost a year after she moved out. I had such a wall built up, nothing hurt me. Even after I found out she was really with another guy before she moved out, I mourned for a couple days.
Man, I didn't realize how thick my wall was until everything unravelled a few months ago. Maybe your tougher. Hope you are. I wasn't. I was a mess and still am to a certain degree. But I understand a hell of alot more what happened. I can tell by how you respond, how you are hurt. But the toughness factor doesn't get by me. Because I was you for a long time. I never felt better for months....Then reality of what you have become hits...
Let it go. Let her go. Better days will be ahead. But anger is an exhausting emotion. My w is still so bitter at her situation, she tries to take it all out on me. Well, it used to not hurt. It does now and I have told her finally how everything affects me. Things have been a bit better the last couple weeks.
But you have to figure a way out of this disdain. It will only suck you in further. Look I have to pay my W. $5,300 Net per month. I had to give her $400k which is 60% 401k, pension. Plus another $140k for a down payment on a house. Trust me, I lost it all and she is the one that wanted this. It [censored]. But, I will make it through. You will make it through. The only thing that helps is time, a good therapist, good friends.
And by the way. Acceptance will come when it is ready...You can't force it. Your body, Your mind will just say it is time. Then and only then can you start the journey back to the guy you once were.
Denver,
You have so much running through your head right now and I totally get it.
However, I want to share something with you that my C discussed with me yesterday.
While I was crying about my sitch and saying what I "should" do, she reminded me that there is no instruction manual to life, so the word really doesn't apply.
What you choose to do is another thing.
That put some things into perspective for me.
I've been at this for going on 9 months. I'm frustrated. I'm hurt. And quite frankly, I'm running out of emotional fuel... All of this is causing me to consider other things.
Let me put this another way.
What Jack said and you quoted in your sitch:
Is this the hill you will die on?
Will you let someone else's actions or reactions break you?
Will you let ALL this crap
Run and ruin your life?
Read Gnosis' questions to you again.
Until you know who you are and what you want how will know yourself and when you get there?
Right now and if you run now, run to some warm fuzzy foot warmer (OW) you will only be the broken man who fell victim to someone draining his emotional fuel...
How does it feel to have your tank sucked dry?
Man you know I am not saying this to you to pile on the confusion and pain you are feeling.
Pound your fist and say NO MORE!
No MORE of you feeling a victim of this.
Move forward in word and deed as the man you want to be...
Leave behind those nostalgic memories for now and the dreams of what you want with your W and with them goes the pain and trepidation of losing what you have no way of controling. What you dread.
Dread is a drain.
Dread is fear.
Do not RUN from it.
Conquer it or it will ever be your master.
Denver,
There has been a lot of talk about what you W did, what you did, this whole OW thing...
It is all important, but something else struck me last night...
Expectations...
We all have them, let's not lie and pretend we don't.
We try not to, we know we shouldn't, especially in these situations...
The reality is, we do, even if they are small ones...
And then, if those expectations don't get met, we get disappointed, angry, feel let down...
When they don't get met, they drain us of our hope, we get tired, we get frustrated, we look for things to make us feel better...
Personally, this is where I see you right now...
You expected your W to respond better to your changes...
She responded pretty well, but only briefly...
You set a boundary, which you expected her to respect, and she hasn't quite done that...
You went to Disney, probably looking for a better result than what you came home with...
You see the expectations not being met, and you have the R talks, trying to push your agenda (sorry for the choice of words) and when it doesn't work, you get let down...
Of course you are tired, of course you don't know what else to do...
Right now, you have to feel your feelings. And face them.
Figure out, objectivly, if your expectations were valid. If they were reasonable and doable, within your situation.
Sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't. Sometimes we expect more than a person can give us at the time. Sometimes, we just can't get what we want when we want it. Doesn't necessarily make the expectation unreasonable but it might make the timing of it unreasonable.
Don't let bad timing kill your hope.
Don't let unmet expectations be the reason you do something that you might not want to do.
Many here say move forward...
Move forward is something I wholeheartedly agree with. Move forward and live your life.
However, please keep in mind, moving forward and moving ON, are NOT the same.
They really are not. Some use the term interchangably but they aren't.
Moving forward is living. Moving on is being done. (IMO, the only time you should start dating.)
So which are you ready to do?
Just want to thank everyone for your wonderful posts. I read them all. Not posting right now. Letting things be for right now. No updates.
Take your time. You need it. You're in pain. Let the pain do it's job.
Please take a time out like I suggested in my first post to you.
It's for your own good.
Questions for you:
RE: "I am at a point in my sitch where I need to let things rest and just be..."
1. What SPECIFIC things are you going to STOP doing to achieve that?
I have to stop worrying about what my w is doing or not doing. Let her live her life, while I live mine. Open the cage. The adage... "If you love someone, set them free... If they return..." well, that is the question... and the answer.
RE: "I must let my W go for now..."
2. How are you going to do that?
I am removing myself from my W's life. She must travel the path that she is choosing without me. I won't be a part of some of those choices.
RE: "I need to stop having contact with my W in order to do this..."
3. What methods of communication will you be using from now on?
I plan to go pretty dark. I will not initiate contact except as necessary for bills and possibly, SS. I will respond to contact that she initiates, but when it is convenient for me. I will no longer jump when I see her number on my phone.
RE: "I will use this time to try to learn more about myself..."
4. How are you going to learn about yourself?
Thinking. Lots of thinking. I have been doing this over the past several days. I've identified a couple of issues that I am trying to address specifically. Control and Fear (which I believe is an outgrowth from my control issues).
RE: "Who I am..."
5. Who ARE you? What are your values?
I am a man who lost himself over the past 15-20 years. A man who forgot his inner child... who let his ego overwhelm him... who got lost in the career and the expectations and requirements of that career... some of this I have recaptured over the past 9 months... some I am still working on. I am loyal to my friends to a fault. I am a man who would take a bullet for those he loves... friends and family. I am competitive to a fault. I will fight tooth and nail to win a battle or competition. I do not give up. I love animals and the world that we live in. I cry in sad movies... or even inspirational movies. I worked my entire life to get to a point where I could provide for a W and a family. I am a man who has made many mistakes in the past 15 years. I love my daughter... but due the circumstances that I played a part in, I am unable to be the father that I'd like to be. I am a man who my parents raised. Damaged by their mistakes. Determined to no longer repeat those mistakes. I am a serious man... wanting, and finally trying, to be more fun loving. I want to stop always looking at my destination ... and learn to enjoy the trip. I need to be me... and stop worrying about what others expect from me. The ego... my pride... have been my enemies for years.... I did not recognize this... they helped me succeed in school, career, with women... but they have been my ultimate downfall. I want to appreciate what I have in my life... and not desire that which I don't have. I am loyal, smart, loving... capable of romance... but also capable of being complacent... confident, driven... someone with a dry sense of humor... I procrastinate. I can't dance... and I am usually afraid to try if I haven't had a few drinks. I love my 2 dogs like they are my children. I enjoy weekend mornings with a coffee and a newspaper. I protected my heart 15 years ago by closing it off... but am learning how to open myself up. I no longer want to be afraid of real emotional intimacy. I like my personal space. I am independent. I like alone time. I love spending time with my group of friends whom I've known since 3rd grade. But.. I now want to share my life with a partner. I never viewed my W as a true partner. I want that. I seek to control the environment around me... probably bc my family circumstances made me feel that my childhood was so out of control. I had to grow up too quickly. I began to take life too seriously. I want to learn... how to enjoy life more. I've wasted too much time.
RE: "I will use this time to look at what I want for my life..."
6. How?
^^^^^
RE: "What traits do I want in the person who I am with..."
If you don't know who you are, what you want and where you're going, how do you expect to recognize yourself? Know if what you have is what you want AND even know if you've reached your destination.
RE: "I need to figure these things out in my head and in my heart..."
To do that you need space. LOTS of it. If you can afford it, go away somewhere for at least ONE week. Don't tell anyone where you're going -- especially your WW. Give your contact details to ONE trusted person only and explicit instructions to only contact you in case of a BIG emergency. Then sit your @SS down and figure out some of these questions.
A man without a plan is a man adrift in the ocean and waiting for a wind to blow him in whatever direction it blows. (And the wind never blows in a single direction constantly)
I've identified a couple of issues that I am trying to address specifically. Control and Fear (which I believe is an outgrowth from my control issues).
Denver,
I want to suggest, your control issues stem from fear first.
Then additional fears result when you feel like you are not in control.
I heard somewhere once that "fear is the root of all evil".
While I can't remember where and that drives me nuts...
I do believe that it is true.
Fear leads to anger...
Fear leads to sadness...
Fear leads to regret...
Fear leads to extreme cautiousness...
Fear leads to bad behavior...
Fear leads to attempting to control situations so you don't feel the fear...
Fear will hold us back from our biggest dreams...
And so on...
Think about it.
Cat04.
you have made a lot of great points.
Your post reminded me of this..."fear leads to anger. anger leads to hate. hate leads to suffering" Um yeah, that's from Yoda/Star Wars.
Kinda rings true. (I hope I wasn't too glib)
I also like this one from Dune:
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
I hope Harrier and I haven't started a geekfest on Denver's thread!
I've identified a couple of issues that I am trying to address specifically. Control and Fear (which I believe is an outgrowth from my control issues).
Denver,
I want to suggest, your control issues stem from fear first.
Then additional fears result when you feel like you are not in control.
I heard somewhere once that "fear is the root of all evil".
While I can't remember where and that drives me nuts...
I do believe that it is true.
Fear leads to anger...
Fear leads to sadness...
Fear leads to regret...
Fear leads to extreme cautiousness...
Fear leads to bad behavior...
Fear leads to attempting to control situations so you don't feel the fear...
Fear will hold us back from our biggest dreams...
And so on...
Think about it.
Thanks Cat. I actually mixed that up in my rambling, stream of consciousness, post. Yes, my control issue probably comes from some fear issues that I have.
For 25MLC... I see that you are back. I am really curious to get your take on my sitch as it stands now.... Your perspective always helps me.
There is a very long update a couple of pages back on this thread.
If and when you have the time of course.
Denver
Hey Denver,
Just wanted to say Wassup and bring your thread back up.
Glad you are where you are Man. Ultimately, you still have enough advice to get you where you need to go.
I personally love the Yoda posts LOL. It's true, but in a weird way how in the hell does a divorce busting sight get on Yoda/Star Wars advice? Hahaha. It's great! Good vibes and great memories.
Stay strong bud!
Hi Denver,
I've read along and see lots of advice. I don't see where you say what you want to do. I think you should do what you want with your life. Because it is your life. Yours, and yours alone.
My point of view on the past month is not the same as everyone else's. It is likely an unpopular point of view. But I'm going to put it out there because I have read every word you attribute to your wife, and I just keep seeing it the same way. Your wife is an artist and makes a subsistence living. You are a lawyer and make a lot more money. When she pals up with you she can get things like trips to Disneyworld and other niceties. She's on board every time there is a concert or a trip. But then she's quick to remind you that you are not a family. Well, if you are not a family, what are you all doing in Disneyworld pretending to be a family?
So, sad to say, my take is that she uses you when it suits her, and then she rejects you. Yes, the oldest advice in the world; same as they told you in 7th grade. She is using you.
As the Fitzgeralds famously said, "Living well is the best revenge." I think you should live well, however you choose to live.
Sadly, I tend to agree with you, Lotus.
Starsky
Hi Denver,
I've read along and see lots of advice. I don't see where you say what you want to do. I think you should do what you want with your life. Because it is your life. Yours, and yours alone.
My point of view on the past month is not the same as everyone else's. It is likely an unpopular point of view. But I'm going to put it out there because I have read every word you attribute to your wife, and I just keep seeing it the same way. Your wife is an artist and makes a subsistence living. You are a lawyer and make a lot more money. When she pals up with you she can get things like trips to Disneyworld and other niceties. She's on board every time there is a concert or a trip. But then she's quick to remind you that you are not a family. Well, if you are not a family, what are you all doing in Disneyworld pretending to be a family?
So, sad to say, my take is that she uses you when it suits her, and then she rejects you. Yes, the oldest advice in the world; same as they told you in 7th grade. She is using you.
As the Fitzgeralds famously said, "Living well is the best revenge." I think you should live well, however you choose to live.
Lotus-
This is the opposite of what we do here at DB. You might personally feel that this is a possibility, but you have no idea of all of the intricacies of their relaitonship. Denver is also much smarter than this, if this was all there was, there would have been no long-term relationship with Denver.
The other point is -- we look to save marriages. Not to tell folks what is wrong with their relationship. They can get that anywhere.
as always, thanks for you replies everyone.
BRIEF UPDATE....
W moved into her new place one week ago today. She came by our house to take a few items of furniture. Called me bc she couldn't get into the house. It was a very, very brief conversation as she was able to get the garage open as she was telling me that she couldn't get it. I said, 'okay. talk to you later.'
Later that day (last Monday), W called. I did not answer the phone. She left a VM saying that one of her friends who had helped her move had left his sunglasses at the house. I had seen them. I texted W about 15 minutes after her call to let her know where the glasses were. She texted back. "Thanks, I found them."
W and I did not have any contact until Friday.
W texted me at 4:30 on Friday afternoon : "would you be willing to check the mail and let me know if I have anything?"
I did NOT reply
W texted again at 6:15: "Not talking to me?"
I did NOT reply
W texted again at 6:30: "I'll take that as a yes. Let me guess... your lawyer told you not to."
I did NOT reply
W texted again at 10:41 p.m. : "Your garage door is open"
I did NOT reply
-----
So W must have really needed her mail to drive out to my place, which is now about 25 minutes from where she lives, at 10:45 at night.
Also, there is no reason for her to drive by my house to check our mail. In fact it is out of the way from where she would drive into our neighborhood and the route to where our mail is.
And she accuses me of being a stalker... (insert sarcasm)
I finally responded to W's texts on Saturday afternoon: "Thanks. I assume that you checked the mail. Hadn't had a chance to check it myself."
She did not reply.
------
I was out with a OW and a few buddies on Friday night when W was texting me.
Things with OW have progressed some. I realize that I have received some criticism about going down this road with OW. I have also received some well deserved concern about this choice.
All I can say is that it is what I need in my life for the time being. I don't think that healing and and working on myself is mutually exclusive from also having OW in my life.
In fact, having OW in my life over the past couple of weeks has helped me learn a few things about myself and my M/R with W.
As for OW... well, she knows my situation. As I've said, I've known her since we were both 5 years old. We went on a few dates 8 or 9 years ago. She and I talked about that and she told me that I stopped calling her back then. We talked more and realized that I stopped calling her bc I had met and started to date my W. OW is so laid back that she merely said, 'I'm not upset. It's all good.' and laughed about it.
A couple of things that I have learned over the past several days ... from my self reflection:
1) that I have never understood true emotional intimacy. I think that it is developed between two people who can truly be 100% honest with one another... and not be afraid of how the other is going to react... in fact, know that the other is going to be supportive no matter what.
I never had that with W. W and I both were afraid of p!ssing the other off by certain things that I think we felt over the years.
I can also say that I feel much more comfortable sharing whatever I am feeling with OW. This may be a result of not really caring if she decides to stop seeing me over something that I feel. Or it may be a result of what I have learned over the past 9 months. I don't know.
2) I have not talked about it here much, but I have really struggled with my job since W left. My motivation, drive and desire with my career plummeted. It has gotten to the point that I have considered walking away from my business.
OW and I were texted back and forth the other night. She was talking about researching going back to school for herself. I joked with her that maybe I would join her and we could be schoolmates again.
She texted something to me that was so sweet: "u have a great job and it's a lot to be proud of. so u need to give yourself more credit... just sayin!!
)
Her text made me realize just how unsupported and unappreciated I felt by W over the past few years.
I think that W came to resent my career. There are reasons for the way that she felt, the fact that I ran her job down, teased her about having summers off, reminded her that my salary paid for most everything. I take responsibility for that.
But it was a spiral downward that neither w or I put our foot down on and said, "no more"... and stopped.
It is also a partial explanation as to why I came to be so depressed the last 10 months that W and I were living together.
Anyway, this was an interesting revelation that I had the other night and I wanted to journal about it.
BITS
Denver
Denver,
(and to anyone else reading : ) )
We are in that 80% that fails, second marriage that came about from an affair. You know, I always shoot toward the 1%.
It always warms the cockles of my heart when I read people blasting and dooming those people.
I figure I'd give a name if not a face.
Could your OW be the one?
It's possible.
I just ask that you be honest with yourself and not rewrite the past regarding your wife.
We tend to justify our actions. We tend to do...what we did not like in our wayward spouse, but...it's ok since we are doing it.
Be cautious and careful.
And be wary with the word NEED.
You need few things in life, the rest are wants.
Edit - We as in me and my wife. : ) Sorry not to confuse.
Denver,
(and to anyone else reading : ) )
We are in that 80% that fails, second marriage that came about from an affair. You know, I always shoot toward the 1%.
Yeah Jack, I know. I'm certainly not thinking along these lines right now anyway. I have not given up on my M yet. And OW and I, I believe, are on the same page that we are just casually dating right now.
I'm just living my life Jack.... and letting my W live her's.
I was thinking how strange it all is, everything that has happened over the past 9 months. Over 9 months since my W told me that she was done with our M, and almost 9 months since she physically left our home... and neither of us has filed for D.
Much has happened during those 9 months. It has truly been a roller coaster from hell.
I just need to step off of that roller coaster for a bit. I need to reclaim my life to an extent and let the chips fall where they may. I need to find some enjoyment in my life bc I have had very little during these past 9 months. I guess I don't see any reason to deprive myself of some female companionship any longer. Deprive myself of spending a little time with someone who WANTS my company. My W is making her choice for the time being. That choice does not include me at the moment. Nothing I say or do can change that. My W has had a solid 5 months of seeing a changed, albeit imperfect, Denver... she has has a chance to see that our life together could be different than it was before she left. Better. I am truly closing the gates to her for now.
That is my view on things at this moment.
I just ask that you be honest with yourself and not rewrite the past regarding your wife.
We tend to justify our actions. We tend to do...what we did not like in our wayward spouse, but...it's ok since we are doing it.
I honestly don't think that it is justification Jack. Not that I haven't struggled with my decision to spend time with OW. I have. But again, I have to live my life. I only have one chance at it. And again, I'm not closing the door to reconciliation at this point.
I'm also not rewriting history. No one is more defensive of his or her spouse when someone criticizes than me. Even over the past 9 months. But I think that I glossed over some of her faults. I put her on a pedestal when she left me and blamed myself for 100% of our problems. I have beat the hell out of myself for 9 months.
No. I'm just recognizing that she is not perfect. Never was. I love her more than anything on this planet, but she was not perfect. And she did contribute to our M problems.
Maybe this is part of my process in forgiving myself a little bit. I f'd up a ton in my M/R with my W. But now... I know that I have also fought to save the M/R like I've never fought for anything in my life. I can no longer do this out of guilt for my actions. It is time for me to begin forgiving myself. And with that, I think comes the acknowledgment that I was never 100% to blame.
Denver
I'm happy for you Denver. You deserve to be happy. If OW makes you this way, then keep her around
I just want the best for Denver. Keep us updated.
Brian
I'm happy for you Denver. You deserve to be happy. If OW makes you this way, then keep her around
I just want the best for Denver. Keep us updated.
Brian
Thanks Brian. This is how it has to be right now. I need a break from the pain.
dever,
Just be careful. The OW is giving you what you need. I was the same. This OW ended up being a great friend for me and we are still together. But I put her through hell because I wasn't ready. I am still not. She knows it too, but she is willing to take it real slow. I imploded 5 months ago, because it was going down the real serious path. Just remember, you make think this isn't a rebound. Trust me, it is. Take it slow....
dever,
Just be careful. The OW is giving you what you need. I was the same. This OW ended up being a great friend for me and we are still together. But I put her through hell because I wasn't ready. I am still not. She knows it too, but she is willing to take it real slow. I imploded 5 months ago, because it was going down the real serious path. Just remember, you make think this isn't a rebound. Trust me, it is. Take it slow....
Thanks D1. I'm sure that it is a rebound. I have no doubt. I have been completely honest with OW... Again, I'm just living my life right now. Trying to bring a little joy back into it. I lost my mojo. I need to find it.
BITS
Denver
Hi Denver,
I've read along and see lots of advice. I don't see where you say what you want to do. I think you should do what you want with your life. Because it is your life. Yours, and yours alone.
My point of view on the past month is not the same as everyone else's. It is likely an unpopular point of view. But I'm going to put it out there because I have read every word you attribute to your wife, and I just keep seeing it the same way. Your wife is an artist and makes a subsistence living. You are a lawyer and make a lot more money. When she pals up with you she can get things like trips to Disneyworld and other niceties. She's on board every time there is a concert or a trip. But then she's quick to remind you that you are not a family. Well, if you are not a family, what are you all doing in Disneyworld pretending to be a family?
So, sad to say, my take is that she uses you when it suits her, and then she rejects you. Yes, the oldest advice in the world; same as they told you in 7th grade. She is using you.
As the Fitzgeralds famously said, "Living well is the best revenge." I think you should live well, however you choose to live.
Lotus-
This is the opposite of what we do here at DB. You might personally feel that this is a possibility, but you have no idea of all of the intricacies of their relaitonship. Denver is also much smarter than this, if this was all there was, there would have been no long-term relationship with Denver.
The other point is -- we look to save marriages. Not to tell folks what is wrong with their relationship. They can get that anywhere.
dbmod,
I respectfully disagree with your assessment of what Lotus is suggesting here.
All Lotus is saying is to Denver is to "do what he wants with his life" and to "live well".
I believe that "dbing" as MWD describes it in DB and DR is to focus on yourself during this time......ie fix yourself first and try not to get caught up in what your spouse is doing.
I think that is what many posters to Denver's thread have been sugesting for awhile.
I believe that in general the advice is the same, which is.....
Stop engaging his W while she is undecided about whether or not she would like to "work" on the marriage.
To do otherwise will cause him pain.
What is different is "where" the advice comes from........
meaning does it come from a place of pride, jealousy, anger, retribution, etc.
or does it come from a place of love.
While Lotus's opinion or view of Denver's W's actions may be blunt and not soft and powdery.........it is acurate based on what Denver has shared with us.
however it is just a point of view not really advice.
So I would disagree that what Lotus said is "Not what we do here at DB".
Furthermore
I think it is beneficial to seek the advice of others that have gone through this before to get their perspective on "what is wrong with their relationship".
I happen to think that Denver's current relationship with his W is "wrong" for him............and I think he has finally figured that out.
Again, I'm just living my life right now. Trying to bring a little joy back into it. I lost my mojo. I need to find it.
Denver,
I completely understand this, finding that mojo is definitely key in finding your center again.
Unfortunately part of finding that mojo, for a man is confirmation that a woman will find us attractive, funny, smart, strong and all those other things that make us "MEN".
There is nothing more confirming of those "manly" traits than the warm touch of a woman.
I understand that you are being open and honest with this OW and she may be on board with where you are at however I am wondering if you are being open and honest with yourself?
At some point in the future will you be wondering if this current relationship with OW stood in the way of your W making a decision to recommit to working on the marriage?
Will you be okay wtih that??
I highly doubt that your W will come to you in a month or two and say that she wants to work on the marriage if you are with the OW or for that matter any other woman.
I think you have really started to let your W be, you are finally giving her the space she has wanted all along........it is not a "fake it until you make it" thing.
She felt that distance when you went to the reunion, she texted you late at night..........WHY???
This was before she knew about the OW......right???
What were you doing differently???
Now imagine a month or two of doing that with no other woman in the picture..........
Hope this helps,
Cheers
ps
I would NOT expect a move from your w for awhile.
I wouldn't even monitor for results til Thanksgiving or later.
If she files she files. Maybe if you keep ignoring her texts, you'll push her that way.
But I'd definitely go dim. But in a cooler manner.
Regarding the silent treatment: If Denver was reliably available (via phone/text/etc) to his wife during the marriage, couldn't that be Denver's version of a 180?
[quote=alamo76]Regarding the silent treatment: If Denver was reliably available (via phone/text/etc) to his wife during the marriage, couldn't that be Denver's version of a 180?
[/quote
Well it's no longer a 180 since he did this before and drove her nuts...so now it looks purposeful.
And does he have to totally ignore ALL CALLS? Even normal ones sent at normal times?
Aren't there better ways to go dim that sudden, zero contact?
Just asking
Regarding the silent treatment: If Denver was reliably available (via phone/text/etc) to his wife during the marriage, couldn't that be Denver's version of a 180?
I think deliberately ignoring someone is generally received as a hostile act. I have a hard time imagining that ever being a useful 180, mostly because the anger it conveys just seems like another sign of unhealthy attachment to me.
Denver:
As usual your thread takes on life and runs with it. Yet I see the same conversation being made.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.....Meaning there is wisdom in every poster regardless of what is said.
The trip to disney was not such a good idea but you already knew that.
I know you do not like what I am going to say and for that I am sorry
I agree with Lotus
Your desire to defend your W's image is admirable but the facts are the facts.
I do not believe that what Lotus is saying has anything to do with not supporting DB or saving a M, with respect to dmod, but DB does not teach us to be blind to obvious truth that are laid out before us.
The blame has been assigned, the forgiveness has been asked for now it is time for you to live your life.
Will she regret it?
We all seem to assume they will but the truth of the matter is we might never know.
Will she come back?
Again, no one knows.
At some point you must say enough is enough and start to make adjustments to live your life with or without your W.
I believe that for the first time you are starting to see clearly and you are starting to take the blinders off, perhaps you have reached your pain threshold.
I know you love your W, and I believe she loves you but what would reconcialion look like today, if she were to call you tonight?
My guess is that YOU would put the breaks on as well you should.
Going dark?
Well what makes you feel good Denver?
Do you crave talking to her?
Going completely dark is not what I would do if I were in your shoes but def not being available everytime your W wants to fill some emotional void by talking to you is is something I would do.
Very few people know my sitch like you do.
Right now your W has very little doubt what you want, in fact, I would say that she knows she can get you to do just about anything she wants or needs because you are "desperate".
How do you erase that image?
By moving on.
I am not much on this faking till you make it stuff cause I believe it is false.
I like reality
Move on, live your life and through your tone of voice, you words, your actions and your demeanor you will display your williness to really move on.
When she feels like she is losing you my guess is that you will get a few different responses
Anger and blame first followed by increase contact.
Are you keeping track of what is going on with me?
I see your W in mine, I know you do also.
Keep the Faith.
You know where to find me
Personally, I think debating whether or not it is DB is a moot point.
More often than not it's, I can do this right up until I can't.
While 9 months have passed, how many of those were consistent behaviour?
Not truly bashing Denver here hell we all do / did this to some degree, some better some worse. I'm hoping next summer to be able to buy Denver a beer.
DB has a wide range of ideas to get your marriage working, the one constant is the burdern of proof is on the person who bought the book or posts here, and one of those ideas is an ultimatium, but that is at the bottom of your bag one of the last things you reach for.
well said Jack3,
2step, the thing about Denver having contact with his w, at this time,
sure seems to go badly. Time apart seems to go better, at least when she wonders.
And I do think making her wonder, b/c Denver really IS moving on, is about the only way to get some movement here.
Denver, is "some movement here" really what you want?
be careful what you wish for.
Can you imagine, as I can, 6 months from now still dating OW,
and having to choose between a new fresh start, with her,
and your w?
As 2step asked, and it's worth thinking about, what would reconciliation look like someday?
What would rejecting her look like? WIth or without OW?
Can you imagine either scenario more?
I lost my mojo. I need to find it.
You think it resides in the ol' twig and berries?
Boy do I remember well when I use to say:
"I know BUT..."
And thankfully some of these people were there to call me on my own bullshirt.
Footwarmer.
Something that makes you comfortable.
You know better Denver.
You're just frustrated, tired, and maybe angry?
Things didn't pan out like you planned.
So on to the next thing?
If you really want to change your life. Change your future. Change what you think you know.
Don't take refuge in comfortable places.
Create your own comfort.
Finding peace with the dude in the mirror.
No one can do that but you.
Don't take refuge in comfortable places.
Create your own comfort.
Finding peace with the dude in the mirror.
No one can do that but you.
Very wise words, I think.
I've been where you are right now Denver and I believe I understand the powerful draw of someone who is willing to make things very easy for you when all you've been doing is working very hard for months on end. I couldn't fault you for leaning on that for awhile.
In an ideal world though, I think Gritter is right. It's better to use the difficult times to learn to handle your needs yourself without using anyone else as a crutch, even if they are a willing accomplice. Seems to me it's what your W did. Do you respect her more or less for leaning on OM when she was mustering the courage to walk away from you?
On the other hand, if you need the distraction and you're honest with yourself, I'm sure things will unfold exactly as they should. I hope you will be well.
Denver, I agree with the posts above.
I guess I look at it this way.
You have been given an opportunity. One to find complete happiness with yourself that is not dependent on an OP.
Perhaps you can find this anyway, but my feeling is, you will go from feeling your happiness is dependant on your W, straight to OW.
I fear you may miss this opportunity.
I hope I'm wrong.
Peace.
Lotus' assessment that your w "used you" is unfair & wildly oversimplifying an actual marriage. If she were "using" you,
she'd either file and get money from you that she could count on, OR she'd stay put IN the m, and get more of it...she's doing neither by living this way now. But I think you "get" that...so I'll move on.
Absolutely agreed.
Is she confused? YES...and the
one thing that she did say consistently is
that she feels pressured by YOU (and OM for that matter).
So How about you NOT being the source of pressure?
My intent is to remove any and all pressure on my W. I will not be a part of her life until her thinking has clarified and until she is willing to work on our M. It is unhealthy for me and it is not useful to working towards reconciliation.
Your behavior is inconsistent. So is hers. Hard to read either well with that.
Um the holiday...too bad you HAD to check her emails...couldn't wait til the holiday was over or mostly?
Do you see any element of sabotage there?
I thought vis a vis the marriage, The whole goal was to show her the positive changes in you and NONE of the negatives...for one week. Why did you have to "know" then & there? Just asking...
too late now, but still....odd act of yours to do at that time, imo.
Maybe a poor choice on my part. But the fact remains that she was being dishonest with me. I would never had another opportunity to check her email if I had not taken it when I did.
Bad in that it makes my W feel that I am controlling... okay, I accept that. But these are not ordinary circumstances either.
Good in that I learned a truth that has helped me to realize that I could not continue living the way that I was.
I totally agree you should go dim. OMG 100% certainty here...
Back off and give yourself an internal timeline, minimum of a month (I'd say 90 days to a "normal" person but you get obsessive with her so I'm trying to be real) of
My timeline is indefinite right now 25. Like I said above, I have absolutely zero interest in contacting or talking to my W until she figures out what she wants and what she is willing to do IF what she wants is our M.
I am swimming to the other shore. If I get there before W figures this out... then it is her loss. That is my timeline.
I will not be initiating contact unless it has to do with bills or SS.
I'm also done letting her think that I will jump anytime that she wants something. That is why I was waiting to reply to her texts the other night. I was not planning to ignore them completely.
BUT she gave me 2 hours to reply to her first text before she sent me the text message asking me if I was ignoring her. 2 HOURS. That is not a lot of time.
Them, she gave me 15 minutes from the time of her second text and her third text which was the rude one asking me if my attorney had told me not to talk to her.
Listen 25, the timing of W's text messages says a lot more than the texts themselves. She needed to know if she had mail at 4:30 p.m. on a FRIDAY evening? Highly unlikely.
She just had to have her mail at 10:45 p.m. on a Friday night?? HIGHLY unlikely.
This was W checking up on me or trying to draw me back in in some way... at least IMO. Maybe even baiting me into having some conversation about R or OW... who knows. But I don't think that the timing of these text messages was coincidental or completely random.
You're better than that.
Mind you, I am NOT referring to her midnight texts at the reunion (a separate Issue I'll address)
but the normal questions she asked about the garage and the glasses and the times you could easily have answered ONE text of hers,
and done it gracefully but briefly
and shown her COOL DETACHMENT without coming off as an a$$....
[quote=25yearsmlc]As for her midnight texts to you and the HS reunion comments...very very interesting.
You got her attention by NOT paying any attention to her. Hmm.
That's not a lesson for how to be married, but it MIGHT be a lesson for how to get her attention while separated.
I'd pursue the "mystery Denver man" thing more, and consistently.
Who knows 25. Again, I have to point to W's inconsistency with her actions and words... she shows jealousy one minute, but then tells me that she doesn't 'feel the same way' about me the next.
I'm just kind of tired of trying to figure it out.
I plan on being a complete mystery to W for the time being.
BTW-What was your goal in telling your w about the OW?
Am I wrong for feeling that it threatens the hell out of your w?
After all, she may lose the position of having ALL the power that she has held now for many months.
That will be an event for her. An unpleasant one. Perhaps a motivating one???
But I don't know how she'll handle it. But she's Not indifferent to what you do.
She has seemed pretty indifferent to what I am doing since her text messages on Friday.
My goal about telling W of OW was simply to be completely honest with her. I have asked her to be honest with me, so I felt that she deserved no less than what I had asked for.
W's power over the situation has been eroded if not completely lost. IMO, she has overplayed and taken advantage of the leverage that she has had over me for the past 6 months. I will no longer let her treat me the way that she has because I feel guilty over how I treated her during our M. Enough is enough. She now needs to decide whether or not she can forgive me, and if so, if she wants to be with me. I am willing to live with either at this point.
I agree with everything that you said regarding OW.
Thanks 25. Was beginning to think that I had frustrated you so much that you abandoned my thread! LOL... guess I wouldn't blame you.
Denver
ugg... ignore post immediately above this one... hit 'reply' too soon.
Reply to MHL and 25...
I understand that you are being open and honest with this OW and she may be on board with where you are at however I am wondering if you are being open and honest with yourself?
At some point in the future will you be wondering if this current relationship with OW stood in the way of your W making a decision to recommit to working on the marriage?
Will you be okay wtih that??
Sure, that is possible MHL. But it's also possible that I may die tomorrow, or a week from now.
My W making a decision to recommit to working on our M is very hypothetical right now. I'm not willing to live my life based upon rules or concerns of a hypothetical situation.
She has made a choice to live her life without for me for now... quite possibly forever. If me choosing to spend time with OW, or date OW, turns out to be consequence of W's choice... so be it.
I highly doubt that your W will come to you in a month or two and say that she wants to work on the marriage if you are with the OW or for that matter any other woman.
I think that if she is clear enough about what she wants, then she will express that to me. Hell, I have expressed what I have wanted very clearly numerous times knowing that W was seeing or at least in contact with OM. At this point, my thought is... why can't she be expected to do the same?
I think you have really started to let your W be, you are finally giving her the space she has wanted all along........it is not a "fake it until you make it" thing.
She felt that distance when you went to the reunion, she texted you late at night..........WHY???
This was before she knew about the OW......right???
It is not a fake it until I make it thing at this point. At least not most of the time. I admit that I vacillate between being very strong in my thinking and being very weak in my thinking. Either way, I am dead set on not being drawn back into my W's web until her thinking is VERY different than it has been.
The reunion stuff was before she knew about OW... yes. Why did she feel that distance? I don't know that it was that necessarily... I believe that it was more a concern of her's that there would be women from my past at the reunion.
Does this show that W still cares? I think so. But this is just another example of her conflicting actions and words. One minute she acts jealous and is asking me who I am with and where I am; the next, she is telling me that she needs her space, that she is done with me, moving to her own place and not telling me the location.
I'm done with that. I can't live like that any longer.
Now imagine a month or two of doing that with no other woman in the picture..........
MHL, thanks for your post, your thoughts and your advice. You will probably never know how much it means to me. I apologize if I am coming across as angry... maybe I am... but not at you or any other poster. My intent is to be determined and straight forward... not angry.
Imagine a month or two of "that" with no OW? I see exactly what you are saying. It is something that I consider on a daily basis. And I understand how treacherous that the waters that I am treading right now are.
I know that I am going to be slammed for my R with OW. I get it. I accept it. But I need for people to understand that this is not some random OW that I just met. I have had more than a few opportunities to latch onto random OW's over the past 9 months and I haven't done it.
At this juncture though, I am unwilling to bypass the opportunity to at least explore what else is out there. Especially with this particular OW. Again, this is someone who I have known for years, liked, and even dated in the past. She is very different than my W. I merely want to explore the possibility that what my W offers not what will make me happy in my life.
Right now, I am not considering marrying OW ... or even having a long term R with her. A buddy of mine called her my 'girlfriend' the other day... I immediately asked that he not refer to her that way.
I am very confused emotionally right now. I admit that. I am just trying to live my life the best that I can through that confusion.... eventually it will subside, right??
Lotus' assessment that your w "used you" is unfair & wildly oversimplifying an actual marriage. If she were "using" you,
she'd either file and get money from you that she could count on, OR she'd stay put IN the m, and get more of it...she's doing neither by living this way now. But I think you "get" that...so I'll move on.
Absolutely agreed.
So How about you NOT being the source of pressure?
My intent is to remove any and all pressure on my W. I will not be a part of her life until her thinking has clarified and until she is willing to work on our M. It is unhealthy for me and it is not useful to working towards reconciliation.
Um the holiday...too bad you HAD to check her emails...couldn't wait til the holiday was over or mostly?
Do you see any element of sabotage there?
I thought vis a vis the marriage, The whole goal was to show her the positive changes in you and NONE of the negatives...for one week. Why did you have to "know" then & there? Just asking...
too late now, but still....odd act of yours to do at that time, imo.
Maybe a poor choice on my part. But the fact remains that she was being dishonest with me. I would never had another opportunity to check her email if I had not taken it when I did.
Bad in that it makes my W feel that I am controlling... okay, I accept that. But these are not ordinary circumstances either.
Good in that I learned a truth that has helped me to realize that I could not continue living the way that I was.
I'd also like to add 25 that W was also able to see many, many good things from me during that trip. Other than this one episode, I was the perfect H/father.
Back off and give yourself an internal timeline, minimum of a month (I'd say 90 days to a "normal" person but you get obsessive with her so I'm trying to be real) of
My timeline is indefinite right now 25. Like I said above, I have absolutely zero interest in contacting or talking to my W until she figures out what she wants and what she is willing to do IF what she wants is our M.
I am swimming to the other shore. If I get there before W figures this out... then it is her loss. That is my timeline.
NO contact initiated by you.
But avoid all the game playing childish stuff about not answering her texts...
she could have waited to ask her questions I GUESS, but honestly, some of her texts weren't nutty or weird to want answers for...
then when she asked if you were no longer talking to her, why couldn't you simply say "I'm just busy right now"???
What's with the weird silent treatment stuff? I Honestly don't get it.
I will not be initiating contact unless it has to do with bills or SS.
I'm also done letting her think that I will jump anytime that she wants something. That is why I was waiting to reply to her texts the other night. I was not planning to ignore them completely.
BUT she gave me 2 hours to reply to her first text before she sent me the text message asking me if I was ignoring her. 2 HOURS. That is not a lot of time.
Them, she gave me 15 minutes from the time of her second text and her third text which was the rude one asking me if my attorney had told me not to talk to her.
Listen 25, the timing of W's text messages says a lot more than the texts themselves. She needed to know if she had mail at 4:30 p.m. on a FRIDAY evening? Highly unlikely.
She just had to have her mail at 10:45 p.m. on a Friday night?? HIGHLY unlikely.
This was W checking up on me or trying to draw me back in in some way... at least IMO. Maybe even baiting me into having some conversation about R or OW... who knows. But I don't think that the timing of these text messages was coincidental or completely random.
As for her midnight texts to you and the HS reunion comments...very very interesting.
You got her attention by NOT paying any attention to her. Hmm.
That's not a lesson for how to be married, but it MIGHT be a lesson for how to get her attention while separated.
I'd pursue the "mystery Denver man" thing more, and consistently.
Who knows 25. Again, I have to point to W's inconsistency with her actions and words... she shows jealousy one minute, but then tells me that she doesn't 'feel the same way' about me the next.
I'm just kind of tired of trying to figure it out.
I plan on being a complete mystery to W for the time being.
BTW-What was your goal in telling your w about the OW?
Am I wrong for feeling that it threatens the hell out of your w?
After all, she may lose the position of having ALL the power that she has held now for many months.
That will be an event for her. An unpleasant one. Perhaps a motivating one???
But I don't know how she'll handle it. But she's Not indifferent to what you do.
She has seemed pretty indifferent to what I am doing since her text messages on Friday.
My goal about telling W of OW was simply to be completely honest with her. I have asked her to be honest with me, so I felt that she deserved no less than what I had asked for.
W's power over the situation has been eroded if not completely lost. IMO, she has overplayed and taken advantage of the leverage that she has had over me for the past 6 months. I will no longer let her treat me the way that she has because I feel guilty over how I treated her during our M. Enough is enough. She now needs to decide whether or not she can forgive me, and if so, if she wants to be with me. I am willing to live with either at this point.
I agree with everything that you said regarding OW.
Thanks 25. Was beginning to think that I had frustrated you so much that you abandoned my thread! LOL... guess I wouldn't blame you.
Denver
I still want you to check out that workshop Essential Experience.
You strike me as a cowboy macho type (but in a smart way) so maybe you think it's a touchy feely girly mushy thing.
it's not. It's amazing and at times, brilliant. Give it a look see.
More later
I still want you to check out that workshop Essential Experience.
You strike me as a cowboy macho type (but in a smart way) so maybe you think it's a touchy feely girly mushy thing.
it's not. It's amazing and at times, brilliant. Give it a look see.
More later
Cowboy? BC I live in Denver... sh!t kicking city eh!? LOL
I'm not against anything if it helps me become a better person or if it would help save my M 25. I will check it out. I think that you said that it is mostly in Philly though. I'd think about doing it if there is one in Denver or close by.
I just googled it actually. I will check out the website later as I have to head out in a minute.
I don't know if you read my entire post replying to you and MHL above. Sorry if I come across angrily. I'm really not. I'd call it more "determined" to stop what has been happening over the past several months. There may be a wee bit element of reckless abandon though ... I admit.
I'm just tired 25. that's all.
Denver
Philly? That's an hour from my house.
Go to that one!!
2 step
YOU GO!!!
Denver, you didn't sound angry to me. Tired? Yes...
But the way you talk about drinking (smoking?) and the bar scene and bands, and living where you live...idk
I just envision you as at least a boots wearin' guy, if not also a Stetson.
I lived in San Antonio for 7 years, so I have a pair of Justins...
MHL, thanks for your post, your thoughts and your advice. You will probably never know how much it means to me. I apologize if I am coming across as angry
Denver,
You are welcome, it is an attempt on my part to pay it forward.....this place and these people saved my life, so I think I know how much it means to you.
and........no you do not come across angry..........but if you are we know how to deal with that............"I'm sorry you feel that way"
I know that I am going to be slammed for my R with OW.
Not from me........however I am not advocating it either.....
I will also tell you that most people here will not bash you over it because I believe that a fair share of people here do have relationships with OP during a separation from their spouse, especially MEN.
No one here really wants to talk about it and it is certainly contrary to working on yourself and definitely contrary to working on your marriage.
Since that is "out there" lets talk about how it does affect a couple that is separated.......
I will share something with you, and now consequently with everyone else here, that I have not said publicly on these boards.
I had an 8 week relationship with a woman during the separation with my XW. My XW did not find out about it until 3 months after it ended but I can tell you it definitely affected me and my situation at the time I was in the R with the OW.
My OW was one of the other soccer mom's on my D14 team and was also recently separated and so keeping our R a secret was a common goal. She was a WAW. She was definitely not healed and neither was I. It was my Affair.
Of course I let the OW know up front and repeatedly that I still loved my W and that I was in limbo and that I was just living my life, if she wanted to be in it then it was understood that it was not serious and could end at any time.
Well, I ended it and she got hurt.
I will tell you in that time when I was with the OW......I started to find "some" of my mojo......and it showed when I interacted with my W. She started showing interest, was pleasant and friendly, and she started acting like herself again.
Why did she start to do this??
Because I really didn't want to waste time with my W when I was dropping my kids off with her.....I could not wait to leave to go be with the OW. To my W it appeared as though I had a life.....I was happy, I did not ask about her or what she was doing.......she "felt" the space.
Just as your W felt the space that night, yeah she knew that there were old flames there however she knew you were going to have a great time!!!!! Why???? Because this was something you were doing for you!!! Imagine if you were acting like that everyday in everything you do??? She would want a piece of that, especially if she did not know exactly what you are doing.
If you are happy now......she knows why........it is because of the other woman.
Take away the other woman........will Denver be as happy????
In your W's eyes the answer is no.
Why did it not work for me then???? (remember, my W did not know!!)
I had not gotten a life.........I had gotten another woman!!!
There is a difference.
Because I was not ready.........you see when I was with the OW I stopped doing the "work" on me. The OW filled the void that I needed to fill myself. When my W started coming around and then I started to take a step towards her.....she recoiled and I reacted poorly and pushed her further away.
It was not until I ended with the OW that I really started to make strides within ME.....and it was probably another 3 months before I found ME again.....for real.
Your situation is a little different but the affect on YOU is the same as it was with ME.......I am postulating here
When I was with the other woman it felt good, I can remember clearly sitting on the couch watching a movie with her and she just held my hand and gently rubbed my arm........it was like a drug!!! I had not had a woman's touch or attention for sooooo long............and it felt good.
How does your OW feel to you??? Oh yeah, you guys have a history together........that makes it even more intense, right??
however
after the initial affect of her affections subsided, all I could think about was my W. I wanted more of this drug.......but I wanted a different supplier........I wanted my W to give me those affections not the OW.
When you are with the OW, do you totally forget about your W? Do you do things with the OW, go places with the OW, say things to the OW that you did with your W??
Denver, until YOU resolve YOUR feelings about YOUR W, they will haunt you and any relationship that you start before you finish working on YOU.
You see what I found is that I could not come to a healthy decision about my M and my W before I got to a healthy place MYSELF.
It was only then that I could make that decision and live with it forever.
I want to make one other point and hopefully end this ridiculously long post.
I plan on being a complete mystery to W for the time being.
There is no mystery here for her......I hope you realize that.
If she does not hear from you she will assume that you are with the OW.
I am not suggesting that you keep up contact, just pointing something out.
Even if your W wakes up, realizes she wants to be with you the rest of her life, why would she reach out to you while you are with someone else that is currently making you happy........uh errrr........that you are happy to be with????
Remember, if the WAW ever changes her mind about us then that must mean that they think pretty highly of us.....right???
If they now have this renewed and heighten image of us then why would they think for a minute that we would leave someone that is good for us for a wife that cheated????
Remember they don't feel worthy of us........one of thier main fears in recommitting is that we will come to our senses one day and drop them like a hot potato, after all who would blame us???????
I will end with this..........
I would not change my journey one bit........every part of it shaped the person I am now........I do not regret it.
However, I can tell you that if I had a time machine and I could go back in time I would do things differently.......but then I would not be who I am today...........I had to fail to succeed.
I am not saying that you need to fail.........I am reaffirming some of what you said............LIVE YOUR LIFE, MAKE IT AS GOOD AS YOU CAN, LEARN FROM YOUR MISTAKES AND MOVE FORWARD.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Denver, I know you are going to do what you are going to do.
But ^^^ this was a great post. Hope you read it closely.
I'm not coming from any moral side here. You know I did the same thing.
I came out of it the exact way I went in.
Found out. It was wasted time. Time I could have spent much more wisely.
Just from my own personal experience.
Be well.
Because I was not ready.........you see when I was with the OW I stopped doing the "work" on me. The OW filled the void that I needed to fill myself. When my W started coming around and then I started to take a step towards her.....she recoiled and I reacted poorly and pushed her further away.
F@cking pearls ^^^^^
I can tell you as a twice married gent.
You can run but you can't hide.
Deal with the loss (if it is truly). Deal with the pain now.
Rather than letting its rotting carcasss spoil the rest of your life.
Denver,
I've been reading and thinking about your post for a few days. I feel so much of the same way. I just want to give you a hug because it seems like you are moving forward.
I really like most of what you are saying You are realizing how important you are. That you are worth love and worth the effort. You are a good man.. not perfect, but are striving to be better everyday. Your feelings are valid and worth having w/o fear that your w will run away.
Your w isn't really acknowledging any of this and that hurts.. because ^^^ is so true. When other people see that and our spouses dont.. it's a WTF. Remember though, we are changing for us.. w/o expectations from our w, our friends, or anybody.
Are you sure some of your actions aren't RE- reactions to your w not seeing your changes? I ask that honestly and only you know the answer.
The only other thing is that I want to speak up for the person who can't.. the OW. These are not 2x4 but honest questions.
The OW says she is cool with your relationship as is? Do you believe her? Honestly I'm not sure I do. She is making you feel things your w doesn't. You feel your w doesn't care, therefore the OW cares! Plus I don't really think women can just have flings.. not healthy ones at least. Is being with a unhealthy woman healthy for Denver?
You've admitted that you are with OW for Denver. How she makes you feel about yourself. There's alot of YOU in it.. is that fair to her?
If it's not fair and you may end up hurting her.. is that the Denver you want to be?
Idk maybe I'm old fashion but I feel relationships whether m, friendships, etc should be equal. Your relationship with OW doesn't feel that way.
I'm not trying to judge. But what I LOVE about this forum is the "push" from others to be the best person we can be. So.. I'm pushing
In the end, I'm sure you will do what's best for you.
You're on the right path Denver, I truly believe that.. but tread lightly my friend.
I let sh!t happen and I regret that I did. It's easy to justify your actions but are those actions truly what is best for you? Make decisions after thinking them out clearly! I completely respect you Denver, It doesn't matter to me what you do, obviously you chose your W over the OW years ago. I would start by asking myself why? Then base my actions on that answer. MHL hit home for me in several ways. If it is meant to be the OW will be waiting when you are healed and truly ready.
For interest sake, ANY LBS have an...OW/OM where no one got hurt?
Jerry & Jeannie: (simultaneously) I hate you!
[They both chuckle over the coincidence.]
Jeannie: See ya.
Jerry: See ya.
[Jeannie returns her ring to Jerry, who puts it in his pocket.]
"It was unprecendented. I mean, it was the first truly mutual breakup in relationship history."
[flashback ends.]
Jerry: (continuing) No rejection, no guilt, no remorse.
Elaine: You've never felt remorse.
Jerry: I know, I feel bad about that...
For interest sake, ANY LBS have an...OW/OM where no one got hurt?
Sure they are the ones you pay by the hour....
Jerry & Jeannie: (simultaneously) I hate you!
[They both chuckle over the coincidence.]
Jeannie: See ya.
Jerry: See ya.
[Jeannie returns her ring to Jerry, who puts it in his pocket.]
"It was unprecendented. I mean, it was the first truly mutual breakup in relationship history."
[flashback ends.]
Jerry: (continuing) No rejection, no guilt, no remorse.
Elaine: You've never felt remorse.
Jerry: I know, I feel bad about that...
NICE CS. Seinfeld is my favorite show of all time. Nice call there!
Please tell me you're not really using a sitcom as an example.
Although...that would fall into the life imitating art.
UPDATE...
No contact with W since her last text to me on Friday night that my garage door was open. She did not reply to the response that I sent to her on Saturday.
TODAY...
I received email notification of my cell phone bill. W and SS are both on same plan as me. My credit card pays the bill, but W is the only one who has access to the online account. The bill was $200 more than usual.
I initiated text convo with W regarding bill.
Me: "Hi there. Hey, just got our verizon bill. It is $450. That is over $200 the normal bill. Can u check the statement and find out why it was over?"
W responded immediately.
W: "sure. How are you?"
Me: "Thanks. Let me know what the problem was if you don't mind. I'm well."
W: "Ok I will. I've been thinking about you the last few days. Feel like we should've talked more after that night at SIL's"
I did NOT respond.
I was at a coffee shop doing some work. About an hour or so later after W's last text, SS came in and surprised me. I asked him who he was with. He said his mom. I asked where she was. He said next door at the post office. I chatted with SS for a while. W came in a little later. It was very awkward.
We made small talk. W said that she had come out here (our suburb - now 25 minutes from where she lives) to take Seth and one of his friends swimming at our pool.
More chit chat. W made comment about me not contacting SS the past 2 weeks. I just smiled, looked at SS, and said to him, "he hasn't contacted me either." I then told him "you know you can call me any time right?" He said that he knew.
After a little while, I got up from where I was sitting and started to walk towards the exit. I was trying to usher W out but not too blatantly. W and SS walked outside with me.
W had just got off the phone with SIL and needed to wait for her to bring her something. So I stood outside with W and SS while she waited.
We were chatting about the pool and the how nice a day it was for that. I told her that I am going to the pool on Saturday.
W asked me "with who?"
I told her that I was going with a couple of friends.
She asked me again, "with who?"
I told her, "I think that S is driving up"
W then said, "Not your girlfriend?"
I ignored her question and continued with whatever conversation I was having with SS.
Then W said, "probably not a good idea to take her to our pool"
I again ignored her comment.
SIL showed up to give W whatever she was waiting for. I hugged SS goodbye. told them to have fun. I waved goodbye to W.
----------------
about 1/2 an hour later W initiated text conversation.
W: "so are you just not talking to me or what? You've said nothing at all. Not sure what you're up to if anything. Do you plan t stay in touch or just let your lawyer contact me? Are you seeing that woman?"
I waited about 15 minutes to reply ... was trying to figure out how I wanted to reply.
Me: "You have been clear about what you want. At this point, I need space too. I know you understand. Talk to you later."
W: "I don't know what i want. This is the hardest thing I've ever been through. I love you and miss you. I'd like to know we'd be ok, bit I don't know. Then when you tell me you want to date some woman you've been talking to all these years, it just reminds me again of how little you respected me and our relationship."
I waited about an hour to reply ... I admit that I wrote out a few different versions of a reply... and had some help from some bits.
Me: "I've taken responsibility for everything that I have done. I've held myself accountable. I still am. And I'm finally working on forgiving myself. You told me to move on with my life. I was crystal clear about what I wanted for us. You have said that you need time and space. That is what I'm giving you, and myself, right now."
Just as I sent that text, W sent me a text about our cell phone bill. We exchanged a few more texts about that, but she has not replied to my last substantive text.
W then just called about cell phone stuff. After discussing the cell phone bill, she began to talk about anything and everything... about her day job, SS, her new place, a problem with the neighbor... blah, blah, blah.
I only listened. Chuckled at a couple of things. I tried to end the convo 2x but she cut me off and kept talking. Finally, she said, 'I will stop gabbing so that you can go do what you need to do'. I said 'ok. Bye.' she said 'bye' and we got off the phone.
That's it for now.
BITS
Denver
P.S. There are lots of great posts that I'd like to reply to. Want to thank everyone for your thoughts. Again, I read all of your posts and many of them twice. I don't know what I'd do if it weren't for all of you...
Denver-
Your SS is too young to have the onus on him to contact you. Don't give the SS space just because you need to give you and her space. He will be the only one to suffer, you both will be fine. Figure it out.
It's a 2x4, but ... you're a strong man.
Also--it's time to start a new thread.
Thanks-