Thanks for the replies everyone. I love the debate that always seems to happen on my thread! It does get me to think. Unfortunately, it sometimes leaves me as confused as ever. The bottom line though is that there is no 'right' answer. I have to take the good advice that I am given and decide for myself if and how it should apply to my situation.
I can't reply to everyone that posted yesterday, but I want to reply to a few things:
Any response or no response from her will fall short of your expectations and WILL cause you more pain.
Thanks for your advice MHL. I appreciate it even if I won't always follow it. Like I said above, I have to take all of the good advice and decide what is applicable to my situation.
To your quote above, my answer would be, 'not if I don't have expectations'.
In my update to follow this post, you will see that I did contact W yesterday. I was really adamant with myself to not have expectations. I think that I did a good job.
If you are afraid that if you do not acknowledge the day to her will somehow impact her decision.........well "Quash It" (Sorry, my GF makes me watch Jersey Shore, LOL)
I agree with 25, I don't think that anything that I do or don't do, other than something huge, is going to make or break my situation right now.
universal constant in every situation that is here on these boards is TIME.
This stuff takes TIME........
This ^^^ would be my #1 piece of advice to newcomers here.
When we first come here, we have no idea what this means. We think that there is no chance in hell that we will make it a week, let alone a month, or 7 months... or longer?
first, you are starting to focus on your pain and forgetting your part in how you got here.
I see a lot of that in the posts you get about "setting boundaries" as if you are in a position to push for that now.
And as if she doesn't have the right to the same. As usual, these folks focus almost exclusively on "the affair"
which, excuse me, she does NOT see as being nearly as "wrong" as you and they do.
And from where I sit, she has a point.
and BEFORE I GET SLAMMED FOR "SUPPORTING ADULTERY",
save it, spare me, and drop it. I am not interested in debating that. I am speaking for her point of view and she's not insane to have it.
I understand what you are saying 25, and I agree. If I saw this as all about my pain and W's actions (whatever you want to call it), there is no way that I could move past it... nor would I even want to move past it.
I recognize that how you want to describe her actions is really irrelevant. There are different perspectives... my W has her's... I have mine... and people here have their own.
Bottom line for me is that her actions do not constitute a true 'affair' as most people think of it. We were NOT living together, there were obvious problems in our M, W was through with our M, I had even told her to leave at one point prior to her doing so... So her actions were not something that she was doing behind my back while sleeping in our bed or living in our house.
Had that been the case, I would view her actions completely differently... and they might be deal breakers.
One thing that she told me back in March or April that is interesting when talking about this, that I never mentioned here on the board:
W and I were discussing her R with OM... she told me that I had been stupid for not moving out of our house when our problems had become so bad that I had said that I was done with the M... W said that she never would have brought another man into OUR house... and that if I had been the one to make the decision to leave, she probably would have stayed more in touch with the M and would have not have had to work so hard to 'move on' in her mind.
I don't know if any of that is true, but it is interesting that W thinks that. And it really doesn't matter at this point.
For me, whether or not W's actions constitute an affair really depends on the time of day, LOL. One minute, I find myself thinking that it is absolutely bullsh!t that she did what she did... then the next minute, I think that if I HAD been the one to leave, I probably would have done the same... and had I met someone who made me feel like I wanted to feel... made me feel like I was special... well, it would probably be very difficult to let that go... even IF I decided that I still wanted to work on my M with W.
Affair, dating... absolute rights... absolute wrongs... they are all just matters of perspective.
Second, if you are discovering that you cannot forgive this or let it go, I'd suggest you get a DB coach and see if they or a counselor can help you with this.
If it's not something you can achieve, then spare her and yourself further pain and just go ahead and divorce.
But own this.
This is what I KNOW... I KNOW that I WANT to forgive myself and my W for everything that has happened... I KNOW that I want to work on our M... I KNOW that I want to have a NEW, better, healthier M WITH MY W. ... I KNOW that I am willing to do everything that I can to make this happen.
This is what I DO NOT know... I do NOT know if this issue will be something that will bother me more if and when we get to the point where we are reconciling (notice the present tense use here MHL
) ... I DO NOT know that it will NOT be something that prevents W from being able to successful work on reconciling...
I worry about the stuff that I do NOT know.
Finally, as for the anniversary, I am conflicted.
A part of me thinks a text saying something like "just so you know, I didn't forget, so Happy Anniversary"
or just something that shows
that [i]while you do recall it and you do care about it
you also are respecting her wish to have space for this month.
[/i]
Are you planning on calling her at 12:01 am July 1? (Hope not).
Maybe you can let her initiate the end of the "space period" & renewal of contact time,
unless you already arranged something.
My daughter flies in on Friday to spend the month of July with me. W has told me that she and her sister have already made plans to see my D quite a bit (she said this in jest, but there is truth to it)... W and I talked about taking the kids to see fireworks on the 4th... we've talked about taking the kids to a Colorado Rockies game on July 3rd for their annual fireworks show (although no tickets yet)... We've talked about going to her niece's birthday party on July 9th... We have our trip to Disney World planned... we've talked about the possibility of W going with me to my H.S. reunion (recent talk)... and we've talked about going to our pool with the kids during the days...
I have a feeling that we will be spending a lot of time together in July... barring W changing her thoughts on where she is with things bw us... which is possible considering that she will have spent the latter part of June by herself thinking about her future.
Denver, I never said this was easy. But it IS simple. And you are inflicting pain on yourself and hurting your cause, but at some point you will
have to get sick & tired of feeling so sick & tired.
At that point, you will, we hope, choose to let go of that which you cannot control.
My main point here is that
I hope you won't sabotage things so that you can know forever that
if things don't pan out and you do not reconcile, it won't be b/c of your fears and failure to contain them.
In a way, isn't that part of why you mistreated her in the first place?
Fearing loss of control? How are you working on repairing this trait?
((( )))
I did contact her yesterday for our anniversary. I will update.
I think that I am doing a pretty good job with giving W her space and time as she and I discussed for June. I have not initiated contact with her in 8 days... and that was only to let her know that the trip to disney world was booked.
I have not mentioned my trust issues nor have I asked her about OM in 9 days...
I vent here a lot, but I've been doing pretty well with W.
How am I dealing with fear of loss of control? ummmm... I have no idea how to deal with that. I am a type A personality and a bit of a control freak with everything in my life... However, this whole experience has taught me a ton about the fact that I control NOTHING when it comes to other people.
Can I remember that in the future? Can I apply what I have learned in the future? I hope so. I hope to remember everything that I have learned through this.
I only brought it up because DENVER said that a continued relationship with OM during this "space" period was a dealbreaker for him, and everyone was dancing around (and apologizing for) even THINKING about a transparency plan, and I pointed out that it's a perfectly reasonable request at this stage of the game, considering all that's happened.
I did say that after the toilet incident. The problem is that it is also very difficult to demand a transparency plan when we also agreed to take most of June to ourselves. Like I've said before, I don't think that I have any choice but to trust W this.
I do agree with you, however, that until his wife comes to HIM and says "I really do want to work on the marriage; let's discuss what it's going to take," then NEITHER ONE of them are in a position to try to enforce boundaries upon the other. The ONLY boundary I've been advocating is "no dating other people while we're in this trying-to-decide-what-to-do-about-our-marriage" period, since Denver has consistently said that is extremely important to him ... a dealbreaker, in fact.
Starsky
I advocate for that boundary as well Starsky.
I believe his said "incidental contact" (like at work) was OK, but no relationship. But I do agree, his entire timelines has been fraught with fuzzy boundary-setting and articulation. I objected to it at the time, too, because I thought it would be ripe for parsing later on.
There was zero boundary setting during the first part of our separation (Dec-Feb)... fuzzy and assumed boundaries for the second part (March-May)... but I think that I have been very clear for the third part (June-present).
BTW, for newcomers... Don't assume that a boundary regarding anything in a separation is clear between you and your spouse ... I agree with Starsky and others that IF you want a boundary, that it has to be made VERY clear.
I do stress the word 'IF' bc I don't think that an LBS is often in a place where they can demand a boundary... and if you are not in a place to demand a boundary, trying to do so can lead you straight and fast to the big D.
and she's not even the lawyer here...
Very funny 25... LOL
Yeah, I guess that she worked me over on that one.
it's not a sad time for Denver (unless HE makes it sad).
It is a hopeful time.
Geez does everyone have amnesia again?
They are moving towards each other. This is the best place Denver's marriage has been for months.
Did I miss something? Did something change in the last 3 weeks?
Last I heard, they were taking some time for themselves b/c they did not want to rush the reconciliation... and
they want to be careful about it. Seems healthy to me!
Yes I know, they are NOT reconciled yet. But there has been such progress and it's the most hopeful time in their m in months or a year.
And somehow we are all comforting Denver in his painful hour...I don't get it.
Sorry but what's with the doom & gloom?
I see hope.
Thanks 25. I think that things are hopeful too. I may sometimes sound "doom and gloom" here bc I WANT things to move more quickly than they are.
But yes, things are better now than they have been a quite a long time.
I'm also being very cautious with my emotions and expectations though. I got burned in April/May and do not want to go through that again.
I agree with 25. I did have a brain fart in that I forgot that there was talk about reconciling. IMO, if I were in your shoes, Denver, as much as this anniversary reminds you of what is, I'd be upbeat and happy because of what can be.
Thanks Alamo. I need to hear that there is hope... as long as it's not complete b.s.
So Denver what happens when the thread is titled "24 hours to go" and you are still in the same place?
I reassess when my timeline of 90 days expires... come on 2Step... I've told you this!
The timeline is more of a goal to help me to be patient... not a deadline for W or my sitch.
It is helping me keep what's left of my sanity.
I too was concerned when there was a lot of talk about boundaries, transparency, trust and verify, etc.
Way too early for this kind of talk.
It probably is too early to talk about transparency and verification.
But I disagree that it is too early to talk about boundaries and trust.
I have a boundary of no OPs bc I do not think that our M has ANY chance of being fixed if the are OPs in the picture for either me or my W. It has been 7 months since my W left me... and 8 months since she dropped the bomb that she was DONE and intended to leave.
IF there is no chance that our M can be fixed, then I am ready to begin moving on with my life.
So... this is my equation... OPs = No chance of fixing M = Me moving on = me being open to finding happiness with OW.
That is where I am. And that place is different than the place I was in when W first left.
Trust is simply something that has to be there ... even now... If I can't or don't trust W, and vice versa, then there is no point in continuing to fight for this M.
As you said, focusing on your role in the downfall of the marriage is very important......I think Denver has identified those things that he did or failed to do in his marriage.
Has he fixed those things?????......
probably not yet and probably there is no permenant "fix", it is probably a "life-long work in progress" thing.
Thanks for acknowledging that I have identified those things MHL.
Have I fixed them? I think that I've worked really hard to figure out how I can avoid repeating those mistakes.
BUT, I agree that it will ALWAYS be a work in progress.
Can I put that work into practice IF W and I get to the point where we are reconciling? I really do think so.
BUT I will always need to be mindful of those mistakes... of the damage that they caused... of my W's feelings and insecurities caused by them... And ALWAYS be mindful to NOT become complacent.
At some point though I think that one needs to move past those mistakes and start to focus on the positive things in their individual life, this is where true happiness is found.
When you discover that your individual happiness is not tied to the success or failure of your marriage you can start to make decisions that are "healthy" for you as an individual.
I know, and have actually always known, that my happiness is NOT tied to my M. Before my W, I was very happy being single. I have also have a history of being very happy in other R's with OW (before W of course).
As I mentioned in 2Step's thread, I take exception to those who say that I came here out of fear (not saying that this is what you are saying MHL)...
I came here bc I love my W and KNOW that I did NOT do my best in my M.
Letting W go... letting my M go... was not something I was willing to do without a fight...
And... I wanted to know WHY this happened... and to fix the things that I have control over, ie, me, so that I do not repeat these mistakes in the future.
But it was not out of fear... nor was it bc I think that I cannot be happy without my W.
What is reconciling or better yet what is reconciling to DENVER?
Also.....
What does reconciling look like to Denver?
I would consider W and I 'reconciling' our M when we BOTH get to the point where we are recommitted to each other... committed to WORKING at having a great M... and BOTH acknowledging our hope and wish that our M is a successful one going forward.
I agree that we are not 'reconciling' right now... W is still not on board.
Correct me if I am wrong, but if Denver and his wife are in the process of reconciling then there is a commitment of both people to "work" on the marriage and there is an understanding that it will be hard work and that it will not be easy.
Furthermore......if they agree that they are in reconciliation then both parties "want" the marriage to work and want to be married to each other.......right???
What I just said... I agree MHL. And I really don't think that 25 would even remotely disagree with that.
Did DENVER make it clear to his wife that in THIS "space" MONTH there are to be no OPs?
No he did not make it clear, but they are not reconciling.....
they are just talking about it. To "make it clear" would be to clarify a boundary that Denver has.......and quite a reasonable one at that, really more like a minimum. If Denver clarified his boundary it would only add pressure, make him look weak and controlling.
I do think that I made my boundary VERY clear on June 3rd MHL. I told my W that I was walking if OM or any OM is in her life... except for minimal and necessary incidental contact as Starsky mentioned.
And I clarified that boundary 9 days ago, prior to booking our trip to Disney World.
I do agree that if I continually clarify that boundary, it will make me look weak and controlling... and add pressure.
I have not brought it up since the conversation 9 days ago and do not intend to do so.
What is a poor man to do????
Look away my friend, close FB, stop texting, stop engaging her.....you have made your intentions clear.......
You would like to work on the marriage.
She heard you..........now let her decide.
I disagree... FOR NOW. As I said above, I expect W and I to spend quite a bit of time together in July.
While I do not intend to initiate R talk or engage in temperature checking with W, I will be hoping that she moves closer to making a decision to move into the 'reconciling' phase by the end of July. My reason for this, is that I think that she has shown signs that she is close.
Now, if July comes and goes, and W is no closer to that, or farther away from that, then I think that I very well may need to disengage to an extent.
My timeline of 90 days (not a deadline) takes me to the end of August... my plan at the point is to reassess the situation... and what I need to do to look out for my personal happiness...
I can tough this out until then. Hell, I've dealt with 7/8 months of more emotional pain that I ever thought possible... I can endure another 2 months.
Last I heard, they were taking some time for themselves b/c they did not want to rush the reconciliation... and
they want to be careful about it. Seems healthy to me!
They are not rushing "reconciliation" because they are not in the act of reconciling.
THIS IS THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE........
Semanatics there MHL. Present tense vs. past tense... We are not rushing to either.
When Denver's W commits THEN there will be clear expectations on both sides, otherwise it will fail.
I am not trying to promote doom and gloom but rather a healthy look at things as they stand.
And I think that you are right to do so... to remind me of that.
I see Denver moving closer to his W and his W seems to be receptive and cautious however at some point it is reasonable for Denver to have some "expectations" of his wife in a committed relationship.
Absolutely... and I think that my W realizes this. She knows that I will not be around forever.
And frankly, my W is not someone who is capable of being happy living in this limbo herself.
She knows that she needs to make a decision and that her failure to do so is causing us BOTH unhappiness right now... as well as SS.
In fact, I think that W is putting a lot of pressure on herself to make a decision... I'm actually kind of worried about that.
If things continue as they are it is only going to cause Denver great pain and he is going to come back here over and over and over again.......frustrated, hurt and confused.
IMO Denver needs to let his W take a step towards him. Until that time he needs to focus on himself.......his marriage is on hold, there is a time out..........
ugh yes... the old 'focus on yourself' stuff... I'm someone who is SUCH a singularly focused person that this is SO difficult for me.
Again, why I need my 90 day timeline...
For me, I can endure the limbo and the pain until that deadline has passed...
but at some point, I am going to have to focus on myself and my happiness again.
I bet if you asked Denver's W about their marriage she would completely agree that they are on a "time out".
She would agree... no doubt.
Everytime he engages his W he is sending a message that says he is okay with the situation as it stands.........clearly he is not "okay" with things as they are.
It bothers him and it will continue to bother him.......
How can he expect her to stop what she is doing if he continually sends the message that he is "okay" with her actions.
Again MHL, I think that W knows that I am NOT okay with the way that things are. And again, I don't think that she is either.
Could I be wrong? Yup.
If so, I will let you tell me 'told you so'...
He doesn't know what she is doing or who she is with.........
it bothers him.
Is this how Denver envisions reconciliation??????
Absolutely not.
But I disagree that I don't at least have a good idea of who she is with and what she is doing... unless I think that she is lying.
She has gave me her agenda for the last two weeks of June. It included most of the 'who', 'where' and 'when' of what she is doing.
Could there be omissions? Yeah, of course. This is where plain old trust has to come in ...
Nothing I can do if she violates that... other than be done of course.
If he does not stop engaging her this is exactly what reconciliation will look like for them.
I disagree... W can't live like this... it is not in her DNA.
but I do NOT believe
that any Single thing Denver does or says, short of a big event, (e.g., hitting her, screaming, losing his temper or repeating old bad behaviors in a big way)
will determine their future.
I agree 25.
Denver, remember that question I asked,
which was something like
"isn't the core reason for your past mistreatment of your w,
based on fear in some form? Fear of losing control, fear of her leaving you", etc.
And those fears were the reason you criticized her, & fear is why you sometimes berated her and well...
rather than me going on in this line, b/c... well,
b/c I don't want to rehash the negatives
as I honestly believe you have owned your part
I just want to show you the possibility you are repeating old behaviors...at some level.
Oh yeah 25, definitely. Some of these old behaviors are hard to kill completely.
I'm working on it.
Now who’s the bully?
(that is not to say that I can't post some long ones myself).
