Going to reassess things at the end of August.
I have so much to reply to from my last thread... Thanks to everyone for all of the thoughtful posts. Appreciated as always.
Just f*cking WOW!
Great interaction!
Believe it or not, I respect your W on this. Even with the "affair". (I hate saying that)
Man, she busted you out. She told her feelings. You stated your boundaries. What are you willing to do now? It's your choice.
She's obviously not indifferent towards you.I don't know who you truly are, but she really painted a picture. No she shouldn't have had the affair but at the same time the honesty and where you can be different is a chance in a lifetime.
Personally, I can't give any advice other than Trusting and verifying your own boundary. Don't hold this over her. You had an opportunity to really realize whats important in your life...you chose to fight for her. You decided to change yourself. Can't you "forgive" her if you have "forgiven" yourself. Isn't this the whole purpose as to why you are here? I mean, you have the reality and knowledge of the whole sitch.
Yes Faith, she was very, very honest with me. For the most part, I believe that W has been brutality honest with me during our S. I think that she omitted some truth recently when she told me that she was struggling with issue of OM and that she had started contact with him again, but that is neither here nor there at this point.
LOL... I know that you hate saying that you 'respect' W after the A... me too!
My boundaries? Yes. I stated them very, very clearly. And I am serious about them. I will walk away from this completely if she crosses that boundary. I am finally at a point where I feel strong enough to say that.
You asked me 'can't I forgive her if I have forgiven myself?' ... I still don't know yet Faith. Ultimately, the answer will probably be yes, but I'm not there yet.
I'm pondering Denver...need more time to know what I think about all this but it's a good (albeit frightening) move for sure.
Still pondering 25? You aren't billing me for your time are you?!
You have identified at least 2 things of great importance.
1) You don't know if you can forgive her although you do know if you reconcile, it has to be dropped for good... That's no small feat.
It means letting go of the past, and working "from this day forward"...and if you cannot do it, then she's right. You'll throw it in her face when you fight or hold it over her head in some way, [i]OR she'll think you will...which is just as destructive.
I know 25. I don't see how I could ever possibly bring this up... for myself. I was serious about putting it in a locked box somewhere in my mind. It is something that, eventually, I will need to almost pretend never happened... I do know that I will need to deal with it first... probably in C. One step at a time though.
2) The other thing is you're not sure you want to be with her anyhow. You rightly and honestly say it might just be about winning. Wow, good insight.
Yeah... I sometimes wonder this. But then, I spend time with my W and realize that I love her... even when she is cranky, b!tchy and volatile like she has been in the past week. Maybe I am the crazy one?? (rhetorical question btw)
I really do HATE to lose. I once told my W that 'I do not lose... that is the way that I live my life'... It was a comment I made in a conversation about my job. Of course, she has hung onto it and is now applying it to what is happening bw she and I.
Your w has so much anger still, that I worry if you two reconcile too soon, or don't get the tools you clearly need, it won't work.
That's all I have for now. Thanks for letting us know the situation.
I'm glad she wants to see your D.
I agree. I don't see any real reconciliation for at least 6 months to be honest with you. I mean, just based on the fact that she is going to move to a new place that will at least require a 6 month lease. Bottom line - We need to start going to counseling before we can even think that we are piecing.
We have a long way to go... Unlike before, I recognize this now
I was fully expecting a train wreck, but it looks like you were able to avert that. Good job!
You've already got tons of good advice, but there's one thing that struck me...
And there is a part of me that wonders if I did continue to fight, would it be just to win...
...
I feel that I have evened the footing between W and I ... that I have gained the high ground so to speak.
This ^^^ attitude may doom your efforts if you are not careful. This is something I used to see in myself, having to take the 'high ground'. It leads to a feeling of superiority and my W could sense that in me.
Thanks LP. I agree. I meant that more in the sense that I feel that I can forgive myself a little bit for the things that I did to W during our R/M. That I no longer need to feel that she is justified for crucifying me for my past actions... I guess that I feel that I have suffered enough now.
It's time for us to begin healing... If she doesn't want to get on board with that... well, then I will do it myself... and move on.
But remember Actions speak louder than words, I still see her very weary of returning to the OLD Denver, and honestly I don't blame her.
Just my 2 cents
Wishing U the best...Sunny
Thanks Sunny. I don't blame W either. And I am willing to give her all of the time and space that she needs to figure it out... Just not with OM or any OMs. That is the boundary that I have set, and I plan to stick to it.
The fact that she resumed her A with OM has been a blow to what I have worked for here for 6+ months now.
So her choices have blown all YOUR work?
Denver I have said this for a while for you.
You have always been way too focused on your W.
And the outcome. Which was winning?
Your M is over if you say it is and not becuase of any other reason.
I posted to you that OM sitting on the toilet can run your life and then ruin your life.
It is up to you.
What do you really want?
You have read my thread I know. There is a time when we come though this and we feel less weak, and then stronger and then...
Strong enough.
That is the biggest temptation when you feel you have healed from the body blows.
That is not the end game Denver.
There is more here for you IMO.
The best part of this journey.
BUT also the hardest.
It means letting go of old ways of thinking that are comfortable but reinforce wrong choices for you.
Your best thinking got you both here.
Time for something different?
The ONLY question for you right now is
WHAT DO YOU WANT?
Then don't let anyone take it from you.
P.S. the other women on FB? It's called life boating Denver. You know when the ship is taking on water and instead of helping bail it out you hop on to a life boat and watch and see what happens. Isn't your W doing the same?
My advice? Deactivate your account. That way you want have to be mind reading W's posts and you won't have the OW for you or your W to worry about.
And it will send her a very strong message.
That is of course if you decide you want to save your M.
I am here for me Truegritter. But I've also been here to save my M. I've always maintained that THAT was my #1 goal. I realize that you and others see it differently. But I also see that improving myself is the #1 step to the goal of saving my M. That's just the way that I view all of this.
I do need to decide if I want to save my M now, after everything that has happened.
I can tell you that it has been 9 days since the 'OM on toilet' event and the anger and hurt is already subsiding some... I do have to thank Thatgirl007 and Cat a bit for this... Seeing this from my W's perspective helps me understand... and I think that is my biggest hurdle to forgiveness.
I'm not done yet Gritter.
You have received some excellent advice here Denver. One thing that struck me is when your wife said that you slept on the couch for a long time and didnt want sex from her. I dont know the dynamics behind that but I can see why she would feel wanted by the OM. And that she felt that he needs her like you never did.
Right 9. That is what I'm up against here. My W would never have done this but for my actions during our R/M... and my actions were born out of ego, pride, a sense of being 'right', and a sense of entitlement. And an obvious lack of understanding and sensitivity of my W's feelings.
I really wish that I could explain how and why my actions got so bad... I can't even really explain it myself.
IMO, the OM was merely a symptom and became a "fix " for her, very very much like a drug. You never gave her that feeling of being worthy and the OM put her up high on a pedistal and made her feel like a Queen.
OH YES 9... Talking to my W the other night, I very much realized that this IS like a drug to her. Not the sex... the emotional side of it... the feeling 'good about myself' comment in particular...
I tend to view OM as a virus that attaches to the host... but I digress...
So again, IMO, and I hate to say this Denver cause I have grown to like you alot; you kinda made your bed in this marriage and drove her away. Doesnt excuse the affair but it is understandable to some degree.
It's okay 9... I recongnized that I had made my bed way back in November when she first left me. That hasn't changed. I know.
Thank you for your honesty... that's what I seek here on this board. I don't want anyone to fluff me up. I want to UNDERSTAND my sitch ... so that I don't react out of pure emotion and subjectivity.
As for you and forgiveness. What does it matter that she had sex with him a few more times? She wasnt really with you yet. Forgive her for real and IF this is what you REALLY want because you love her and NOT because its about WINNING, then a few more romps in the hay mean NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING.
YOU are in a great spot now DENVER, if you love her, give her space and she will come back. I feel it.
9
It means nothing 9? Really? I so want to believe that. I really do. I am in an epic internal battle within myself...
My male ego and pride vs. my rational and forgiving side of myself and my love for my W.
Here is where I see cause for concern. I mean Denver made a goal/vow to not bring up OM to himself and to the board. What did do? Keep bringing up OM.
I don't want to be a buzzkill, but just telling her that he won't bring up OM in a fight in the future is meaningless to her. I'd start showing her NOW. No OM talk ever.
You aren't talking to a jury, you can't talk your way into making her believe.
But more to the point. You have to forgive her for YOURSELF. Because regardless of whether you want the M, if you don't deal with it - other than anger- it will follow you around the rest of your life. Without forgiveness you will never let it go.
Normally Harrier I would agree that I shouldn't have brought up OM... especially since I listed not doing so TWICE as a goal.
However, this conversation HAD to happen. Things changed from the time that I set that goal and this convo. I had to clearly state and set this boundary with W... that would have been impossible without bringing up OM.
I am fully prepared to walk away if she crosses this boundary at this point.
Your point on FORGIVENESS? Absolutely right.
This is probably one of the biggest things that I have learned since being here... why forgiveness is important and necessary.
Denver - All I have to say is that I am a little jealous. I would love to have STBX be that open with me instead of her usual half truths and crap. I don't know where you should or will go from here, but that conversation is something many of us will never have. So...be damn proud of yourself.
Thank you so much BTM...
If I may suggest something that you may find useful in your journey?
I have just finished the book " Hold Me Tight" by Sue Johnson, it's been recommended by others here at various times. (Thank you to those who have given out the title before me!)
I have had that book recommended to me, but haven't read it. Thank you Scylla!
Your interactions with your W were great. They were honest and they were thoughtful. One thing after reading what happened is that the two of you are communicating like a typical male and female would. It's time for her to start understanding that.
Thanks Bond. Expected a 2x4 from you for this! LOL...
Also, I do understand about how your years of checking out porn, etc. could be damaging to her, but let's face it. She actually went out and did the thing she was afraid you would do. SHE was the one who went over that boundary. NOT YOU.
Sure with the porn it was a quick fix or whatever, but alot of it was her insecurities of you cheating on her. She was worried about the "fantasy" of you cheating on her. But she was the one who ultimately crossed that line.
You are a person of high value because you are a man of integrity. She has to be the one pursuing you, not the other way around.
Thanks again Bond. As Harrier pointed out, you do know that I'm an attorney, right?? LOL
Not sure what others think of your take that my W was the one who actually crossed the line, whereas I didn't... but, I wonder how valuable it is to assign percentage of blame or negligence?
I tend to agree with you on this Bond... that is my perception ... but W's perception is not that... her perception of reality is the reality that I am dealing with.
Wow-beautifully said. I can see where my H has not jumped on the Recommitment train yet.
Denver, I have been following your post closely. Don't give up-you are allowed to have some second thoughts as you get closer to possible reconciliation (the section on infidelity in DR is really good and discusses this). You have to give yourself some time to really process these emotions or even if she comes back, you will unload on her. I still feel betrayed by the fact that my H has left (and did so while my son was 5months old) and I seem fixated on readdressing this (at least in my head) everytime I interact with him or discuss this with family. I am going to have to let this go if I have any chance of moving forward, whether it is with him or another R.
Hope this helps....I know that no one knows me yet but I have followed all of you and you are doing really well. You are at mile 22-don't give up now....ONly 4 miles to go
Shannon
Hi Shannon. Nice to meet you (in the internet sense). Don't know if I am quite at mile 22... maybe mile 15! But thanks.
You made a point that we need to let go of things in order for us to have a chance to reconcile... this is true. Letting go also means to forgive.
Maybe we both need to take your advice Shannon...
Thank you for keeping up with my thread...
Ah its a shame you needed to talk to her when she shut down your phone. Her ability to keep reeling you back in is working against you.
It happened.
And I am going to disgree spellfire.
With this kind of language. Sorry.
It doesn't help Denver. Instead makes him feel like a piece of sh!t. IMO the man is taking too many of those arrows already.
From his wife.
Women do not like controlling men. They respect and are attracted to men who control themselves. They ultimately are repelled by men who allow themselves to be controlled.
Agree in part. You gonna live your life by what someone finds attractive?
F@ck that!
Sorry. Spellfire this is not directed specifically at you I just wanted to talk about the language that gets bandied (up ^^^^thread) about here regarding what our spouses find "attractive"
Find out who you are and then live it. She doens't find it attractive then she can find some dipsh!t. (which she did)
It has nothing NOTHING to do with Denver's "attractiveness".
It MAY have something to do with the character he may have been showing her and the choices he made, but NOT his "attractiveness".
That is how we feel when we get here. It is a backwards step to focus on it.
After we have looked at ourselves...
After that...making someone feel they are not attractive for any reason is a bunch of crap. Focusing on THAT is a short term solution IMO.
You will be that idiot she left again if you're acting as if you are the "attractive guy".
Based on what empirical evidence? Are you "attractive" ?
Crap.
Real changes = real life.
Anything else is
Denver in your own words "center yourself"
Around what?
The whim of a confused WAW?
Or
.....YOU?
Around me Gritter. Around what I want. What is best for me in the LONG run... not out of short term hurt and anger.
I am getting there.
What spellfire said... I tend to agree with your take Gritter. I do respect Spellfire's position on it though. And I get what he is saying.
Saying that it is a shame that I let W manipulate me? That's his opinion. I know my W and my sitch better than anyone here, obviously. I'm okay with any and all opinions on my actions... I take what I want and leave the rest behind.
I KNOW that this conversation HAD to happen.
It was a step forward towards recovery ... for me and my M. A step forward in allowing me to forgive myself and to begin to regain my 'mojo' so to speak.
I have taken a lot of arrows from my W... you are correct Gritter... Arrows here to not begin to approach the pain of those...
Thanks man.
All this advice is for you and whatever YOU choose to take from it. Nothing more, nothing less.
That's exactly right Faith. And when I screw up, all of you can hit me with 2x4s... that's why I am here!
LOL...
Denver, I follow your threads. I learn a lot from what gets posted. I find I have very little to add. One thing that stands out for me is the timelines.
IMO this experience is more of a journey than a destination, I understand placing a timeline and check points on the journey. We all want to see progress to our goals. We do need to use care not to become distracted by them. I found this on another site.
"A management team distracted by a series of short term targets is as pointless as a dieter stepping on a scale every half hour."
I cannot cite an example as this is more of a perception from your threads.
"I know what you're going through is tough. And I think you've gotten some really good advice here over all. I just want to chime in from a W's perspective."
I need this more than anything right now TG007. Thank you.
"When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that, bought the t-shirt Of course, my H went a step further and cheated, then left, adding an extra crunchy layer of goodness to my sitch.
One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H. Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from. "
This is what I need to understand... if I am to forgive her... and I need to forgive her for myself... maybe she is right? She doesn't need forgiveness from me... I still need to do it for me though.
"When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run."
I think that you may be right. I have never understood why she is unable to just 'start over' and put the crap that I did behind her. I'm beginning to understand that I caused severe emotional scars ... that aren't going to heal easily, if at all.
"Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time. And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought. "
That's exactly what my W keeps telling me. I just have trouble understanding this because I am not one to let the words or actions of others hurt me SO badly. So I have a problem relating to the emotional scars that my W has.
Again... this is why hearing these words from you TG007 is so valuable. Thank you again.
"Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality."
My W forgave me time after time after time... and every time she did, she loved me just the same as she always had... and she worked to make our R work just as she always had... you are so right here.
It finally came to the point that she wasn't going to go through it one more time... She was D-O-N-E ...
She also told me that the emotional damage that I caused to her made her believe that she WAS the things that I said she was... a bad mother, not affectionate, not sexual, ... some of which she read into the words used by me... some based upon my actual words.
Bottom line? I treated W poorly out of my own insecurity, my ego, my sense of superiority... I really can't tell you how or why I was so horrible to my W.
It is a regret that I will always live with though... regardless of how this turns out.
"And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.
Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win."
I was sure that it was NOT just about winning before her renewed A with OM... This time around I feel MORE disrespected... bc we had had 3 months of good time together... 3 months of me showing her that things could be better.
I didn't... maybe still don't ... quite understand why she hasn't been able to forgive me... why she went back to OM after those 3 months.
I am trying... Why? BC I don't believe my W's actions during our S define who she is as a person. I KNOW that she would NEVER have had let another man into her life, even slightly, let alone had an A if I had not made her feel the way that I did.
"Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell."
I agree.
Thank you so much for this post TG007.
Above post was in response to Thatgirl007...
Stunned... the timeline is merely for me ... so that I can keep my sanity.
I have been in limbo for over 6 months now. As many here can relate to, I'm sure, it is not pleasant.
What happens at the end of my timeline? WTF knows. It depends on what happens between now and then AND what I want at that point.
The timeline is simply a method that I find helps me get through.
You are right though... it is a journey.
Cat -
"I hesitated to post this because I don't usually get this personal on the boards anymore...
I have to say that Thatgirl's post, helped me to realize exactly why it is I have push you so hard...
You remind me, of my STBXH, in many many ways. Mostly in the way that you made your W feel..."
It is okay. Thank you for your honesty. The perspective that you, 25, and TG007 have offered me over the past month has been invaluable.
Why? BC I NEED to understand my W's perspective... I NEED to understand the depth at which I have hurt her... If I don't, I am doomed to repeat my mistakes... either with W or with someone else.
That is the last thing that I want. Really.
Keep pushing me... keep giving me the truth.
"It may not seem like it, but your W, is giving you an opportunity to really begin to show her that it won't be the same...
You can't show her that by acting superior because you have done some work and you think she hasn't, bullying, smothering, or expecting her to believe you in just six short months..."
Slowly... very slowly... this is getting through my thick skull.
I agree with this... I do.
But... I have to have the boundary that I set with her. You may not agree with it, I don't know. But it is something that I feel that I need to have.
"Trust me, she may not seem like she is doing anything to you but having an A, but it sure seems like she is trying to figure out if she believes that she is really lovable..."
I think that THIS is probably the most accurate statement of my w's actions that has been made... or that I have thought of.
I am literally disgusted with myself when I think of how I put my W in a position where she needed to figure that out.
"It took you a long time to create your end of this mess...
It is going to take her a long time to see that it doesn't have to be the same..."
Yup.
Thanks again Cat.
Denver
Denver, I really do think you are beginning to get some insight into what your wife is going through.
I will say one thing. It's obvious to me that she loves you to death because she cares what you think. She cares that you've found out about her continued interactions with OM. She cares that you've pulled back. She cares about every single thing you do and every word you say. Every action she makes is because of you. You are the still center of her universe.
She does not know how to put herself first properly. The OM is an escape from the way you made her feel for all of those years, but what she doesn't get, is that she never should have allowed you to make her feel that way in the first place. She does not know how to stand on her on own two feet...and she will always be operating out of fear and desperation until she can get to the place where she understands her own value and her own worth - and learns to place herself as a top priority in her own life.
This will not happen overnight - and it definitely will take time if she hasn't even expressed a logical, practical knowledge of her own value.
The very first thing she has done to even begin to move toward figuring it out for herself is asking for the month of June - without any of you - so that she can get out of the emotions of everything and get down to the business of being alone and sorting out her feelings and emotions - about herself.
When she gets to a place where she is never going to let you - or anybody else - mistreat her so fundamentally ever again, when she is strong enough to stand up and say, "Love me, respect me and treat me as if I am of value, or leave me alone", that is the time when she will be back to the reliable, honest, and loving person you knew her to be.
And the very best thing you can do for her - and yourself - is treat her as if she is of worth and value from this moment on. I don't mean to tell her that you believe she is of worth and value, but to treat her as if she is...
AWesome post TG. Denver , I think you get this but please pay close attention to this post.
Not to highjack and I know Denver wouldnt mind, but that is exactly what I asked my W to do when I found out about her affair with the low life. And thats what she told me she was going to do way back in Feb of 2010, find out who she was and then when I found out about OM, i asked her to not be with eithr of us for awhile till she found out who she was. My wife Denver was not strong enough to do so and that is why I believe your sitch is soo oooooo much better.
When I mentioned to you that another few romps in the hay mean nothing, I didnt mean that it was ok. I just meant that since she has done it before, and she is in junkie mode so to speak, trying to get him out of her system, I dont think you should punish her for having a slip. The end result is she get it out of her system. Now if she commits to the R and does it again, To me, that is a deal breaker. Thats all I meant. Like I said before , try and imagine you are meeting her for the first time and you KNow she had relations before.
I cant tell you how hard it has been for me to see Om's truck in my W's driveway and know that she was having sex with this deuche bag over and over again. I honestly dont know If I could continue but I would have to convince myself that it was something different in order for me to accept it and forgive her.
Perhaps its a little mind game but the stakes are sooooo high. Its bigger than just us, ITs the whole family and its the rest of our lives.
9
Normally Harrier I would agree that I shouldn't have brought up OM... especially since I listed not doing so TWICE as a goal.
However, this conversation HAD to happen. Things changed from the time that I set that goal and this convo. I had to clearly state and set this boundary with W... that would have been impossible without bringing up OM.
I just want to clarify. I wasn't talking about the convos this week. I was talking about your first set of goals on the 90s days. When OM was brought up in casual conversation.
My point, and you know it, is that the only way to show her you won't bring up OM is to not bring up OM in any context.
It's tricky here because she is scared that you might throw OM in her face. But to show her you wont do it in a fight is to unfortunately -- have a fight. Which no one wants. This requires a lot faith and trust on her part. What she can't give you now.
P.S. I will be in your fair city in a few weeks. I'm finally getting sworn in to be a CO-licensed attorney.
Normally Harrier I would agree that I shouldn't have brought up OM... especially since I listed not doing so TWICE as a goal.
However, this conversation HAD to happen. Things changed from the time that I set that goal and this convo. I had to clearly state and set this boundary with W... that would have been impossible without bringing up OM.
I just want to clarify. I wasn't talking about the convos this week. I was talking about your first set of goals on the 90s days. When OM was brought up in casual conversation.
My point, and you know it, is that the only way to show her you won't bring up OM is to not bring up OM in any context.
It's tricky here because she is scared that you might throw OM in her face. But to show her you wont do it in a fight is to unfortunately -- have a fight. Which no one wants. This requires a lot faith and trust on her part. What she can't give you now.
P.S. I will be in your fair city in a few weeks. I'm finally getting sworn in to be a CO-licensed attorney.
I agree Harrier. I will not be bringing OM up in the future except as it relates to the boundary that I have set.
Too bad you can't look me up while you're here! Congrats on being licensed here though!
My wife Denver was not strong enough to do so and that is why I believe your sitch is soo oooooo much better.
Well, it remains to be seen if mine is 9. I do think that the fact that I have now made it clear that I am out if she doesn't had an effect. We'll see.
Thanks man.
BITS
Denver
Denver,
I hesitated to post this because I don't usually get this personal on the boards anymore...
I have to say that Thatgirl's post, helped me to realize exactly why it is I have push you so hard...
You remind me, of my STBXH, in many many ways. Mostly in the way that you made your W feel...
I can't tell you in words how much I wanted him to be different, even after I realized how ugly I had become because of the treatment that I accepted, the spoken and unspoken messages that I internalized. I can't tell you how hard it was for me to break free of those thought patterns for myself. The anger that I went through at first. I was angry at him and myself for all of it. And for a long while, I wanted him to hurt as badly as I had, even though I just wanted him to be different and want to reconcile...
As I realized that I was dealing with MLC and not just WAH, my anger began to subside some, the desire to reconcile NOW, was set aside...I was dealing with a monster of an entirely different color and I knew that there was a long road ahead...
And I took time to really heal myself from all of it...
Even after I became stronger and didn't want to be with him anymore, I still hoped that he would wake up and change...
For himself... for someone else...
And I hold that hope for you as well...
The truth of the matter, I didn't decide that I couldn't be with him anymore if he were to want to come back because I stopped loving him. I will always hold love for him in my heart.
I made the choice to stop standing for me.
For lots of reasons, including that I didn't know if I would be strong enough to not fall back into patterns of behavior that were not good for either of us. Especially if he did...
The day came when I met a man. A wonderful man that I love very very much...
Who is very different from STBXH in many many ways...
The most important way, is that he tells me and shows me that he loves me and wants me daily...me, no one else, no matter how cute, cranky, happy or sad I may be...
For me, it was hard to accept at first, hard to believe it was real and that it would last, because it was something that I had wanted for so long in my life and hadn't really felt...
and those fears, almost cost me this R...
Eventually, I came to trust it, to believe in him, to believe that I deserved to be treated well and that someone really did want me and love me...
The damage is still there though...the scars...I am ashamed to admit that once in a while, when things get difficult, when wires get crossed, if I feel even the littlest bit like I did in my marriage (which is, simply put, unimportant to him), my initial instinct is to run or to push him away...
Because I would rather be alone than feel that way again...
I haven't actually done it yet, although I have tried in small ways, because BF understands. Sometimes it is very frustrating for him, but it doesn't take long for him to realize what I am actually doing and why...
He tries to understand and reassure and comfort, much much more than he should ever have to...
It may not seem like it, but your W, is giving you an opportunity to really begin to show her that it won't be the same...
You can't show her that by acting superior because you have done some work and you think she hasn't, bullying, smothering, or expecting her to believe you in just six short months...
Trust me, she may not seem like she is doing anything to you but having an A, but it sure seems like she is trying to figure out if she believes that she is really lovable...
It took you a long time to create your end of this mess...
It is going to take her a long time to see that it doesn't have to be the same...
Regardless of how this turns out, regardless of whether you decide that you want her or not, or she wants you or not...
I hope that you can find, really find within yourself, what it is that you need to find to make sure that you treat the next person in your life...like she is the most special, most important person in the world to you...
Cat what a powerful post. From a person that is waaaaay behind on this journey compared to you what I highlighted in bold is EXACTLY some of my fears. Anyways just wanted to stop in and say great post.
I read everyone's sitch but I am taking time to myself right now and using my own thread to post my thoughts and journal.
Ok Denver, I've followed your post and good 'ol SBH is going to play devils advocate (love that movie)...
I do not understand all this empathy for bad behavior. I'm sorry! I don't! Your W committed adultry! Sorry but going to a strip club and looking at porn is not the same as physical intercourse with another person. I can't imagine your pain. I am so sorry for your hurt. But how many times are we as LBS's supposed to get kicked in the BA!!s and get back up.
"ILUBINILWU" - Kick in the BA!!s
"I'm leaving you" - Kick in tbe BA!!s
"I am having an EA" - Kick in the BA!!s
"I am f'ing someone else" - Kick in the BA!!s
REALLY???????
I get it Denver, you made mistakes in your relationship. SO DID SHE!!! 1+1=2 Denver. Two people made mistakes. you AND YOUR WIFE!!!
Look, I'm all for saving Marriages and I hope you save yours because it's what YOU want.
But I'm not going to sugarcoat this ultimate betrayal.
SHE IS WRONG! SHES WRONG TODAY AND TOMORROW. SHE WILL ALWAYS BE WRONG FOR CHEATING.
I know that I am going against the grain here and that's ok with me...
Respect your W? Maybe I can understand what she did.... But respect her? NOPE!
Good luck Denver. I truly wish you the best. And I hope you get whatever it is you ultimately want.
Originally Posted By: Spellfire
Ah its a shame you needed to talk to her when she shut down your phone. Her ability to keep reeling you back in is working against you.
It happened.
And I am going to disgree spellfire.
With this kind of language. Sorry.
It doesn't help Denver. Instead makes him feel like a piece of sh!t. IMO the man is taking too many of those arrows already.
From his wife.
With what kind of language? Because I used the word shame (and you bold it) in the context of "its a shame"? How is this an arrow at Denver? I am certainly not implying he should be ashamed of anything.
What I am saying is that she is being manipulative because after calling him and being abusive towards him for not answering, she finally took it a step further and shut it off. Clearly he needed that phone and she knew it, I was merely saying it was a "shame" (is there a less offensive word I might use here?) that he depends on that phone and needs it active. It was nothing to do with placing shame on him.
I am on Denver's side in this, honestly. I am not gunning for him.
The second thing of mine you quoted is MY SIGNATURE and not directed at Denver's specific sitch at all. It is a quote from Strong & Alive, someone who helped me a great deal in resolving my personal situation.
Denver, sorry for spamming up your thread. I felt called out for my view and wanted to make it clear that I am behind you all the way. Wasn't even intended as a 2x4.
Ok Denver, I've followed your post and good 'ol SBH is going to play devils advocate (love that movie)...
I do not understand all this empathy for bad behavior. I'm sorry! I don't! Your W committed adultry! Sorry but going to a strip club and looking at porn is not the same as physical intercourse with another person. I can't imagine your pain. I am so sorry for your hurt. But how many times are we as LBS's supposed to get kicked in the BA!!s and get back up.
"ILUBINILWU" - Kick in the BA!!s
"I'm leaving you" - Kick in tbe BA!!s
"I am having an EA" - Kick in the BA!!s
"I am f'ing someone else" - Kick in the BA!!s
REALLY???????
I get it Denver, you made mistakes in your relationship. SO DID SHE!!! 1+1=2 Denver. Two people made mistakes. you AND YOUR WIFE!!!
Look, I'm all for saving Marriages and I hope you save yours because it's what YOU want.
But I'm not going to sugarcoat this ultimate betrayal.
SHE IS WRONG! SHES WRONG TODAY AND TOMORROW. SHE WILL ALWAYS BE WRONG FOR CHEATING.
I know that I am going against the grain here and that's ok with me...
Respect your W? Maybe I can understand what she did.... But respect her? NOPE!
Good luck Denver. I truly wish you the best. And I hope you get whatever it is you ultimately want.
I LOVE IT
I just wanted to point out that none of us here condone Denver's W's actions or think that physical intercourse with another person is equal to Denver's past behavior in his M. Nor did anyone, I think, say that Denver's W was perfect or hadn't made mistakes. Ultimately, Denver knows the truth of the cause and effect of his actions and I think he's firmly established what his boundaries are.
I was simply offering him a glimpse into his W's perspective because I could identify so much with her in the scope of the conversation he replayed for us.
But I do want to say that it takes a heck of a man to face his own past behavior and mistakes, acknowledge the root of the problem and embrace change.
No worries Spellfire. I am in control of my sitch here. I appreciate all opinions and view points.
Denver
I just wanted to point out that none of us here condone Denver's W's actions or think that physical intercourse with another person is equal to Denver's past behavior in his M. Nor did anyone, I think, say that Denver's W was perfect or hadn't made mistakes. Ultimately, Denver knows the truth of the cause and effect of his actions and I think he's firmly established what his boundaries are.
I was simply offering him a glimpse into his W's perspective because I could identify so much with her in the scope of the conversation he replayed for us.
But I do want to say that it takes a heck of a man to face his own past behavior and mistakes, acknowledge the root of the problem and embrace change.
And I APPRECIATE it more than I can ever say in words TG. Thank you again.
BITS
Denver
Ok Denver, I've followed your post and good 'ol SBH is going to play devils advocate (love that movie)...
I do not understand all this empathy for bad behavior. I'm sorry! I don't! Your W committed adultry! Sorry but going to a strip club and looking at porn is not the same as physical intercourse with another person. I can't imagine your pain. I am so sorry for your hurt. But how many times are we as LBS's supposed to get kicked in the BA!!s and get back up.
"ILUBINILWU" - Kick in the BA!!s
"I'm leaving you" - Kick in tbe BA!!s
"I am having an EA" - Kick in the BA!!s
"I am f'ing someone else" - Kick in the BA!!s
REALLY???????
I get it Denver, you made mistakes in your relationship. SO DID SHE!!! 1+1=2 Denver. Two people made mistakes. you AND YOUR WIFE!!!
Look, I'm all for saving Marriages and I hope you save yours because it's what YOU want.
But I'm not going to sugarcoat this ultimate betrayal.
SHE IS WRONG! SHES WRONG TODAY AND TOMORROW. SHE WILL ALWAYS BE WRONG FOR CHEATING.
I know that I am going against the grain here and that's ok with me...
Respect your W? Maybe I can understand what she did.... But respect her? NOPE!
Good luck Denver. I truly wish you the best. And I hope you get whatever it is you ultimately want.
I would have agreed with everything that you just said 7 months ago SBH. What I have learned in the past 7 months though?
1) Love and marriage/relationships... it is not a zero sum game...
2) That we can never say just how we will react to any given situation until we actually face it.
Denver
"But I do want to say that it takes a heck of a man to face his own past behavior and mistakes, acknowledge the root of the problem and embrace change."
All well and good Thatgirl...
I wonder if his W plans on doing the same.
"I was simply offering him a glimpse into his W's perspective because I could identify so much with her in the scope of the conversation he replayed for us."
I get it Thatgirl.
But you fail to mention, as do most of the posters, that Denver also has a "perspective". And can you relate to HIS difficulties in the M.
She cheated!
Bottom line!!!
If you cheated on a test would you blame the teacher?
There is NO justification!!!
NO cause!!!
NO excuse!!!
NO reason!!!
She can divorce Denver and do what she wants.
BUT THEY ARE M!!!!!
Sorry to hijack Denver. But I'm so sick and tired of us men being the CAUSE of our spouses unhappiness.
She CHOOSE to have an A!!!
IT'S WRONG!!! BOTTOM LINE!!!
SBH - OUT!!!
"I would have agreed with everything that you just said 7 months ago SBH. What I have learned in the past 7 months though?
1) Love and marriage/relationships... it is not a zero sum game...
2) That we can never say just how we will react to any given situation until we actually face it."
I hear you Denver. And I understand. Maybe you're in a different place than I.
Good luck my friend...
"But I do want to say that it takes a heck of a man to face his own past behavior and mistakes, acknowledge the root of the problem and embrace change."
All well and good Thatgirl...
I wonder if his W plans on doing the same.
"I was simply offering him a glimpse into his W's perspective because I could identify so much with her in the scope of the conversation he replayed for us."
I get it Thatgirl.
But you fail to mention, as do most of the posters, that Denver also has a "perspective". And can you relate to HIS difficulties in the M.
She cheated!
Bottom line!!!
If you cheated on a test would you blame the teacher?
There is NO justification!!!
NO cause!!!
NO excuse!!!
NO reason!!!
She can divorce Denver and do what she wants.
BUT THEY ARE M!!!!!
Sorry to hijack Denver. But I'm so sick and tired of us men being the CAUSE of our spouses unhappiness.
She CHOOSE to have an A!!!
IT'S WRONG!!! BOTTOM LINE!!!
SBH - OUT!!!
Man... you're really putting me in a position where I need to defend my W here ... and beat myself up even more than I already have SBH.
Listen, I get you. I do. Like I said though, this is not a zero sum game. And there really are no winners in my sitch. NONE.
I really f'd up my M. I own that. I don't run from it, and I don't hide from it.
I also know that I am going to work a helluva a lot harder in that M if it is reconciled.
I also recognize that my W made mistakes. Her mistakes during the M? Minimal compared to me.
Her mistakes since she LEFT ME and MOVED OUT? Well, I guess that's a matter of perspective.
I struggle with this bc there is a huge part of me that believes like you do.
But that is NOT the only perspective that there is.
Many people believe that it is perfectly acceptable to date when you are separated.
Many people think that it is perfectly acceptable to 'move on' when you are emotionally divorced ... and that the legal paperwork means nothing.
OTOH... there are others who are religious and believe that once you marry, that is forever... that even a legal divorce does not end that commitment.
I royally f'd up in my M. I did not honor certain vows to love and cherish my W. Some might say (including my W) that I was unfaithful by coveting other women (porn/strip clubs).
My W gave me numerous chances to change. She was faithful, she loved me, she worked her a$$ off to get me to love her like I should have.
Finally, she was DONE.
She left me.
She moved out.
She began a new life... In a new home...
She had no intention of ever returning to me.
She was emotionally divorced from me.
Does all of this justify the fact that she entered into another romantic R?
I have NO F'ing clue! I'm not a god... I'm not ruler of the universe.
My choices going forward come down to a few simple questions:
1) Can I forgive myself for playing a huge role in all of this?
2) Can I forgive my W for the things that my pride and my ego struggle with?
3) Do I love my W?
4) Can I trust my W if she ever fully commits to me again?
5) Can I trust myself to be the change that I have worked so hard to attain here?
All of the rest? It really doesn't matter anymore. It is yesterday's news. I'm focused on tomorrow, and the next day... and the next...
Does this make me weak or a doormat? Nope. Not IMO. And no one here, if you knew me, would ever think of me as weak or a doormat. Never been my style.
Bottom line is that I'm going to take what I want from all of the advice, opinions and feedback that I get here... and I'm going to throw the rest away.
I'm going to make my own choices... And F those who don't like it or who disagree with it.
This isn't an attack on you at all SBH. I respect your opinion. I do. And, like I said, 7 months ago... well, I would have been the first one on board with you.
But having lived this has changed my perspective on A LOT of my former beliefs.
Denver
But you fail to mention, as do most of the posters, that Denver also has a "perspective". And can you relate to HIS difficulties in the M.
She cheated!
Bottom line!!!
If you cheated on a test would you blame the teacher?
There is NO justification!!!
NO cause!!!
NO excuse!!!
NO reason!!!
I get what you are saying SBH, BUT I have also seen NO Wife be as brutally honest as what Denver's wife has.
She admitted it, she explained why, and I DO SEE hope based on that. It's all about how Denver wants to move forward.
The way you are talking, it's punitive. True, but it's Denvers choice. He has the option to enforce the boundary. HE has the choice to accept HER feelings. Right or wrong, honesty is the beginning of communication.
The affair was a symptom of a bad marriage. The real problem is the old Denver and the old her. Who forgives who first and what will they do to achieve a new relationship. There is a choice. Not yours to make friend.
Denver, hold the boundary, let her pursue the NEW you. Don't hold it over her, but just move on and keep doing what you are doing. If she likes what she sees....she WILL pursue you.
Yep, Denver. You get it. You have things in perspective. From the way you described your discussion with your wife, it is possible that she is a person who can (if she wants to) put things into perspective and reconsider them. I hope she wants to.
SHE IS WRONG! SHES WRONG TODAY AND TOMORROW. SHE WILL ALWAYS BE WRONG FOR CHEATING.
She cheated!
Bottom line!!!
There is NO justification!!!
NO cause!!!
NO excuse!!!
NO reason!!!
BUT THEY ARE M!!!!!
She CHOOSE to have an A!!!
IT'S WRONG!!! BOTTOM LINE!!!
SBH, all I see here is yelling and anger.
To me the focus is completely backwards.
Standing on a soap box, pointing a finger down on the crowd. Wrong, wrong wrong!!!
Denver's W, my W, many others W's and H's have made some very poor decisions.
We do NOT agree with their decisions. We do not believe them to be
right.
But, we also learn to forgive. We learn that, as you said, it takes two. We own our part.
This does not mean we
approve of what they have done. Forgiveness does not = approval.
I guess I can only come up with one thing as I write his, what does the anger and finger pointing accomplish?
Does it make them more wrong? Does it make us more right? Does it help us heal? Does it help us forgive? Does it help us move forward?
All I see is it help us to stay stuck.
I would never fault anyone for having a boundary in which if their S cheats, under any circumstances, they are done.
I also applaud people who can forgive in their darkest hour.
Bottom Line?
It just isn't that simple.
WHAT COUNTRY ^^^^ SAID....
SBH, you sound like a fire and brimstone preacher talking to criminals...with a righteousness that blinds you
but then you repeated it, so it's not a one time loss of control.
But All I "hear"
is you yelling and screaming in so much anger, that you sound like you WANT to hit someone...
that's what I hear
Yes, your beliefs do go against the grain, & I submit, they go against DBing...
This is a solution based approach. Yours doesn't sound like that to me.
Listen guys and gals... I'm not angry at all. Honestly not one bit.
I get what this site and philosophy is all about. Changing yourself. I get it. And I agree with it.
But when a person has an A for whatever reason they are wrong.
Let me tell you all something about me. I was/am the more giving one in my M. Unlike Denver, I have few regrets with the way I treated my W the first 14 years of M. I treated my W like absolute gold. My W was not kind, giving, or pleasant to be around. From years 14-16 I disconnected.
So I ask you all, if I had an A at say year 10, should I be "respected", "understood", "soothed"?
I say NO, that an A is wrong. That if I'm unhappy I make it absolutly clear and move out.
Denver, I'm not saying leave your W. And I'm not saying that your W should not be forgiven or given a second, third or forth chance.
I'm just saying that there is no justification for having an A. And I do not "respect", "see eye to eye with", or "understand" anyone that has an A for any reason, male or female. And it seems that on this site the LBS takes 90% of the blame for the WAS actions including having an A.
You don't need to defend your W to me Denver. I'm sure she is a lovely woman and just as sure you were a total a$$ in your M. But can we stop defending and finding justification for a S to have an EA/PA...
And I have grest respect for you Denver, 2step, 25, thatgirl, country, and many others...
And trust me when I tell you that I struggle with my opinions of what's right and wrong, forgivable and unforgivable over the course of a M.
And I envy the fact that all of you can rationalize, reason and forgive in the face of great pain... It's really awesome. And I hope to get there some day,
Well, what Country, 25, and even Denver said...
Holding on to anger, holding on to self righteousness, standing on a soapbox and pointing fingers, doesn't serve the goals of reconciliation or healing, and it does go against DB principals...
It won't lead you to reconciliation in the long term...
We all make mistakes, there are no degrees of mistake or bad choices really, just mistakes and bad choices, or simply choices that dont "fit" with what we expect (I hate to say that just because a choice isn't the one that I would have made that it is bad.)
Denver, as a lawyer, where there are degrees of badness, and punitive damages, this may be where you are having a problem...
As much as I rag you about that, you really do have to take the legal thinking out if this. It just isn't that black and white, just like to a victims family it is as black and white as say --first degree murder-intent-life in prison; drunk driving accident-manslauter-no intent, no thought-20 years in prison. To them, their loved one is still dead because of someone else...And it hurts the same and they have to find their ways to forgive and heal...
We forgive, for ourselves...
So that we don't live in anger, bitterness, and rage...
We forgive, to have the opportunity to reconcile...
Or eventually enter into a new R...
Or be alone...
And be truly happy...
We become better people through this process...
So that we don't repeat our mistakes...
Now Denver,
As far as Thatgirl and my posts...
TG said it and I will repeat...
You may have been a crap H...
You made mistakes...
You treated your W like crap...
We all get that, including you...
On her side (because she isn't as rosy as you want to paint her)...
What she is going to have to deal with or is dealing with, her anger makes me think that she is close but probably not there yet...
She allowed the treatment. She allowed herself to be mistreated. She allowed herself to be neglected, to be abused. (Yes people hate that word, but emotional abuse is still abuse).
She has to deal with that. She has to understand why she became that way...Either it was simply the dynamics of the way the two of you interacted, or something deeper within her...
Like you didn't set out to be a neglectful H, she didn't set out to be accepting of that sort of treatment either...
It is something that happens over time...
While you should understand your role and her perspective, you should also understand her role in that...because she does have one...
Women who get physically abused by their H's, don't ask for that behavior, are not responsible for it, but when they do nothing to change it or remove themselves from the situation, then they become just as responsible for it continuing...
I don't know if that makes sense to you but it is true...
Keep giving her time, let her deal with these things, she has to step out of the victim role she has painted herself into...
She needs to find forgivness for you (which is actually the easy part) but she also has to find forgivness of herself and that is hard to do...
In response to SBH:
Listen guys and gals... I'm not angry at all. Honestly not one bit.
You definitely come across as very angry. The exclamation points, the tone, the hammering home your point. I know you say that you're not angry, but maybe possibly you should look a bit deeper.
Let me tell you all something about me. I was/am the more giving one in my M. Unlike Denver, I have few regrets with the way I treated my W the first 14 years of M. I treated my W like absolute gold. My W was not kind, giving, or pleasant to be around. From years 14-16 I disconnected.
So I ask you all, if I had an A at say year 10, should I be "respected", "understood", "soothed"?
I say NO, that an A is wrong. That if I'm unhappy I make it absolutly clear and move out.
You have a perspective, but I think that it is difficult for you to step outside of that perspective and see where other people are coming from. Denver's sitch, isn't your sitch and you can not paint him with the same brush. First, of all, as you stated, his wife was "unhappy, made it absolutely clear and moved out".
Furthermore, many people who have affairs because of the way they were treated/or how their spouses have changed, etc. do find sympathy, empathy and justification from society. Just surf the internet and take a look around. Affairs are rampant in our society and many people feel that they are justified in having them and are validated when they do. That's not my opinion, but it is reality.
I'm just saying that there is no justification for having an A. And I do not "respect", "see eye to eye with", or "understand" anyone that has an A for any reason, male or female. And it seems that on this site the LBS takes 90% of the blame for the WAS actions including having an A.
You don't need to defend your W to me Denver. I'm sure she is a lovely woman and just as sure you were a total a$$ in your M. But can we stop defending and finding justification for a S to have an EA/PA...
And herein lies the crux of the problem. You see, we are not telling Denver that he doesn't have a perspective, yet that is what you infer. We are not saying that he needs to understand, respect or see eye-to-eye with his W's affair. We are saying that if he wants to reconcile with his W, then he has to understand and respect her. His W is more than the sum total of her actions in the last six months. His W is the woman he married, the woman who stood by him through thick and thin for years. She is more than her mistakes. And when you can only see your W as a one-dimensional action, then you will never be in a place where you are able to reconcile with her. And that may be your journey, but it doesn't have to be Denver's.
FWIW, most of what you said about your M, could be said about mine. So, I can definitely understand how you feel.
I was/am the more giving one in my M. Unlike Denver, I have few regrets with the way I treated my W the first 14 years of M.
SBH
I don't think it is about finding justification for an A. It's about trying to understand the reason for it.
You said you treated your wife like gold for 14 years of your M. I don't know about the other 2 years. Yet despite this golden treatment your W still had an EA, correct? Kissed another man? correct? Thought she was in love with him and had no connection to you? correct?
So do you know why this happened? Did you gain any insight to the issues that lead to this breach of trust?
I'm not bringing this up to cause you pain, but to highlight the affair (even an EA) is an issue for Both of you, caused by both of you, and has to be fixed by both of you.
I think your wife's EA still pains you - a lot. But the main thing keeping it alive now is not forgiving. Forgiving doesn't mean excusing, doesn't mean forgetting.
The forgiveness isn't for your W it's for you.
I know Denver isn't there yet. I've started down that road myself.
Focusing on the actions of the A, takes the focus off the real issues at play here.
"We all make mistakes, there are no degrees of mistake or bad choices really, just mistakes and bad choices"
Really Cat?
So intercourse with another person is the same as say, telling a little lie to your spouse?
We most certainly disagree there...
Yes Harrier, my W had an EA and I believe she kissed the person...
And she has not communicated with him in 7 months. And the actually EA lasted 45 days. And she is 100% committed to our M...
She told me just last night before we ML, "you are such a great guy. And a much better partner than me."
And even with all that...
You are all correct, I have not forgiven her...
Not sure if I can...
Which is why I envy and respect all of you...
BTW Denver, sorry I hi-jacked your thread...
Lots to learn for me in your sitch...
I think the thread needs to be refocused 100% on you...
Hello Denver, you don't know me from these boards. I'm like a lot of newcomers, in that, I've been reading here (early on a month ago, sometimes reading all night)..
haven't posted about my own deal yet; so I don't know that this will even post before this thread locks. Anyhow, I feel compelled to offer my own two cents worth if you don't mind.
I needed to forgive someone once that I found the desire to, and even inwardly proclaimed my forgiveness for her (and him).. but wherever the rubber hit the road, I found myself wholly without the ability to forgive..
Someone said something to the effect, that a powerful dynamic re: forgiveness is simply the willingness to allow that forgiveness to come to her, for her, from the same higher source from which I seek forgiveness for myself.
I also had to assimilate the fact, that, I did not have clean hands in the whole affair, (affair).. see what I did there ;- )
Anyhow, the decompression was powerful. Free unmerited favor,
(sometimes unmerited in an abject, almost paradoxical sense)..
Forgiveness isn't something 'earned'. It's like real love; comes free of charge, dismisses any past indictments. Unless forgiveness (more apt, the willingness to forgive) is offered by the better loving man, on an unmerited basis; it's nothing much more than immature equivocating..
And again, this kind of forgiveness (the real deal, so to speak,)
isn't a built in ability to our human condition. It comes from higher up.
But, it is available to whosoever is willing to receive
it..
Peace
I wish you the peace that transcends all understanding..(even that of our own situations)
I'm 57, she's 56. I run her off with my own inimitable
drunken nonsense.. 22yr M (T 27 yrs.) 4 grown sons, lots of
fine grandkids.. I'm in Colorado, she's at the youngest sons
in N Carolina, ~ a month now. But I'm good, (better than I have any right to be,)
I dont think SBH is trying to be , for lack of a better term, a jerk here. I think that he is struggling with the concept of foregiveness in an affair, period. My W used to accuse me of being black or white with no shades of gray, and in some topics, I was like that.
I would have sided with SBH 100% a few short months ago, but then you start to see the role that you played, are aware that people are human and sometimes very weak and then another perspective starts to slowly creep up.
All IM saying SBH is that , YES , Affairs are not the right answer and should never have happened but when they do, you have to see the WHOLE picture when you look at it and how you want to proceed. To stand on the self rightoeous soap box is one approach , but where does that get you . I am right and you are wrong , rinse and repeat. STUCK. There are many ways to perceive this issue but do it with an OPEN mind.
I will never agree with what my W did and will always see it for an act of weakness on her part. But then I must admit, my wife is a weak perosn at times and suffers from poor choices. I MUST forgive this for the following reasons
1) I need to heal and not be stuck in bittersville Ont
2) My kids need to see a strong perons that can be happy
3) IF , Recon is ever a possibility, then I need to forgive
ITs up to you SBH how you perceive your sitch down the road.
Denver has his agenda and knows what he wants. Do you?
9
"We all make mistakes, there are no degrees of mistake or bad choices really, just mistakes and bad choices"
Really Cat?
So intercourse with another person is the same as say, telling a little lie to your spouse?
We most certainly disagree there...
Yes we definately disagree...
Intercourse with another person is a LIE to you spouse, so yes it is most definately exactly the same...
Being completly honest, it wasn't my STBX's
OWomen that hurt. It was the
LIES that accompianed them that hurt.
It was the breaking of the most fundamental thing, his word, that is what did the damage...
I am not saying if he had TOLD me first that I would have been happy or accepting, but the ACTIONS showed the deceptions...
If they hadn't happened, I wouldn't have ever known he was LYING and THAT is what did the damage...
I spent years, being punished by him, for a mistake early on in our R. While we were dating, before we even thought about being married, I had a brief affair. I had my own crisis period. And then it wasn't just that I had done that, it was also that I had dated before I even met him that made me the worst person walking the face of the earth...
Because he couldn't forgive, because he felt SUPERIOR because he hadn't done what I did...until he did...and even then, he couldn't admit it, which just made the lies even worse...
That punishment, led to me having resentments of him. Led to me having fear that if I did ANYTHING he didn't like, that I would never live it down. Led to me trying to be a freakin' Stepford Wife, and even that wasn't good enough...
Hoops that I will never jump through again...
Wasn't fair to either of us...and things could really have been different if he had been able to be forgiving...
My STBX lives in Bittersville. He is in a sad state. He thought he found happiness with someone, however, something happened there and that has fallen apart as well, because there is no forgivness...
I feel for him...I really do...
Because he is going to be forever searching, forever feeling superior to people because he can't look at his own faults, his own stuff, because he can't be accepting of people.
Because he has a scale of perfection that NO ONE is ever going to be able to live up to.
Even if they jump through hoops trying.
SBH, I hope you find the person who is perfect. The person who will never in life, let you down. In any way, shape, or form, since you are such a wonderful man. Someone who will wear the rose colored glasses to look at you, that you seem to wear to look at yourself....
I hope you never need to be forgiven by someone and if you do, I hope that that person gives you the chance that you seem to be unwilling to give to them...
It isn't up to me to judge anyone...I choose to leave that to the man at the Pearly Gates...
If this is how you choose to live and what you choose to believe, I hope that you find what you need...
Good luck.
I hate to respond to you Cat but I must..
You never lied or was dishonest to H about anything EVER?
I don't buy it...
And by your logic murder is the same as stealing a KitKat, child molestation the same as lying, rape the same as telling your children there is a Santa Clause.
There are absolute degrees of right and wrong... Lest there be chaos...
I would love to hear from the lawyers... Denver, 25, Harrier???
Its time to start a new thread and take this off line...
This is not fair to Denver... Really sorry dude...
I agree..............its BS
Sunny
Its time to start a new thread and take this off line...
This is not fair to Denver... Really sorry dude...
I disagree....
I think this is the perfect place to have a debate about forgiveness...
And the pitfalls of not being able to.
Exactly where Denver is.
The "superiority" complex displayed is exactly what Denver should take a glance at in his own situation.
And if is stings a bit ?
Then maybe it should be looked at more closely....
There are absolute degrees of right and wrong...
I agree with you here. However....
There not degrees of forgiveness. You either forgive or you do not.
I do not disagree that A’s are wrong. Of course they are. I don’t think anyone is saying otherwise. To me it is like yelling over and over that the sky is blue.
If we did not believe it was wrong, it wouldn’t require forgiveness in the first place.
You don’t need to forgive someone for giving you a lollipop.
We are all entitled to our own views. They come from our experiences, upbringing, moral codes, etc...
I ask that you all take a step back, and really think about a post that you are passionate about. Are you coming across as, atacking? Are your views substantial enough to stand on their own without tearing another's views down?
Enough people hammering a point on 1 or 2 people and those 1 or 2 people...likely might not come back here. Fostering an us vs them atmosphere.
The only solid answers lie in math. All other answers are subjective.
Jack - Blue is the best color!
Mach - No Red is! Blue isn't the right way to go.
Jack - You take your red and shove it.
(you can almost see the no win here, and escalation that will come.)
In the past and likely in the future, I'll be guilty of not following my own advice. But I try.
Here of all places...every day, you have the chance to put into practice DB while communicating.
This argument about right and wrong seems to me like one of those occasions when both you and your spouse are "right" to some extent and an opportunity to exercise how 25 signs off "would rather be right or happy?"
FWIW: I do not think the word "degree" of right and wrong is the best way to frame the discussion. I offer the example of simple theft: one who steals a million dollars is guilty of a greater offense that one who steals a dollar.
I believe a better word is "gravity." Right is right and wrong is wrong, but the "gravity" (or graveness) of one sin may indeed be greater or less than another. That is why adultry is so difficult to get past, when other things may be easier to forgive and forget.
Just my two cents.
Have a great weekend everyone.
Pickle.
I offer the example of simple theft: one who steals a million dollars is guilty of a greater offense that one who steals a dollar.
I'll counter with a joke:
An old man at a posh party ends up talking with a stunning young model. After a few moments he asks her, "Would you sleep with me for a million dollars."
She smiles and leans forward, allowing the cut of her dress to accentuate his view. "We'd do more than sleep." She breathed.
The old man, sips his wine, and then asks, "Would you sleep with me for one dollar?"
The young woman's smile is replaced with scorn and she straightens up quickly. "What do you take me for a prostitue?"
"That fact has been established," he drinks the rest of wine, "we are simple haggling over the price."
The $1 thief, did he take it from a child? Was it the only dollar the victim owned?
The million dollar thief, did he take it from a corrupt company? Like Robin Hood?
Circumstances, as well as gravity play a part. However, I'm not sure at least to me, that determining this is the goal.
To me, I think assigning levels of fault or blame impede forgiveness. My wife didn't owe me 4 "I'm sorry's" while I only had to provide her 1.
The goal, for me, was to hear, a sincere apology, and to see her live up to it.
To me, I think assigning levels of fault or blame impede forgiveness.
This one sentence sums it up nicely.
BTW, love the joke
Yes Harrier, my W had an EA and I believe she kissed the person...
And she has not communicated with him in 7 months. And the actually EA lasted 45 days. And she is 100% committed to our M...
She told me just last night before we ML, "you are such a great guy. And a much better partner than me."
And even with all that...
You are all correct, I have not forgiven her...
Not sure if I can...
Which is why I envy and respect all of you...
funny...I didn't see any respect from you. Just yelling.
Here's something you said in February after you made your w choose you or the OM/EA...
she stopped the EA. But she was very depressed. I would peek in the shower and watch her cry. Truth be told, I didn't feel bad for her at all. She did wrong and was paying the consequences.
God you sound so punitive here. As if you enjoyed her pain...(except for the ego part.)
Then you said to Punchy
A year is a long time... The hardest thing for me Punchy is this...
I MAKE THE MONEY...
So she saw him with the car I pay for
So she emailed him from the computer I paid for
She texted him from the phone I pay for
Very f'ing frustrating and hurtful!
BECAUSE I WANT ALL THE POWER/CONTROL
I do understand my roll in the demise of our marriage but there is no excuse for cheating...
REALLY? Where do you ever discuss that? Oh, the "understandable" withdrawal you did for 2-3 years preceeding her EA?
If she had had sex with OM, then al bets would have been off... She would have been done..
But as it stands things are good..
The
odd thing for me is that women started to hit on me. It's like they can smell a single or available or vulnerable man... Very odd...
Was I close to taking a bite of the fruit? Yup!
Wow....no insight here at all. You almost took the bite, just like your w ALMOST did. You spoke to women you were not married to? Were some of them attractive? Did they boost your ego? Soooo,
the ONLY real difference between your behavior and your w's, is ONE KISS?? No wonder you are so busy condemning/judging/defending yourself...scary to look within, isn't it?
Did I? Nope... And that was with the help of these boards and the great people here...
When all you want is love, and someone is willing to give you something that looks like love,
it's hard to resist.. Really measures your character!
Wonder if your w could say the same thing,
since by your own admission, you had checked out of the m long before she did...
But of course in your case, it's different. YOU were justified in that, you were justified pretty much in everything...whereas
She has, "NO EXCUSE!! EVER!!"
Jack3
sorry, I didn't see your post before I posted mine.
I discussed forgivness in an interview once (cause I'm so darn famous & important
)
that the "most important lesson I ever learned...Oh, easy...how vital forgiveness is AND how to do it."
Forgiveness is, as my signature says, our way out of hell. It's MANDATORY to a happy m. Period.
SBH, I told Denver that if he KNOWS he cannot forgive, or if his w THINKS he won't, then they are doomed.
No one wants the sword of Damacles over their head the rest of their lives b/c
their sin was the worst one....
It doesn't work that way. You have a real scorecard, and it shows every time you discuss your history SBh...that will doom you as it is record keeping & proof, of Not forgiving
I could go on-- but SBH if you are not ready to learn about forgiveness, you will stay stuck (or your m will end when your w gets tired of having to wear a hair shirt). If you are ready to learn about it, there are resources here.
Denver, hope this helps you in some way. Probably reinforces what you already know. And I think your choice will lead you to the other side, whatever choice you make.
Soap box much 25? Yea, I get on one every now and then... But so do you...
In all honesty, I love this debate. And I stand firm in my beliefs. Without anger... That's right, it's not anger, it's passion...
Most of us forgive the A out of fear, at least at first. Fear of losing everything, fear of change, fear of being alone.
Denver set a boundary about OM. His W did not respect it. In fact, she was lying to Denver all along. And the ONLY reason he knows about the OM is she got caught.
So what's the solution and advice from everyone on this board? Forgive her AGAIN...
And that's fine if that's what you want Denver.
But as I said before, how many times is the LBS supposed to get kicked in the BA!!s? At some point instead of standing right in front of our S with easy access to our NUT$, you have to turn around and........ Walk away.
And I respect that everyone has their own limits and time line for this.
Including me...
A few posts ago Cat asked if I was looking for perfection...
I'm not...
I'm looking for a partner that is faithful and that will not cheat no matter how difficult life is...
Because that's what I deserve... And that's what I expect...
Have an awesome weekend all...
GO BRUINS!!!!
Denver,
I apologize for this final hijack...however I feel that I must answer one question posted by SBH...
In the meantime, I hope that you really are beginning to understand WHY forgivness is so important...
I hate to respond to you Cat but I must..
You never lied or was dishonest to H about anything EVER?
I don't buy it...
SBH,
You don't need to buy anything I say...
The answer to your question was actually in one of my earlier posts to you...
I said that I had an affair...first. If that isn't a lie, then I don't know what is...
And then I lived for 15 years, as I expect your W is going to be living, and how I hope that Denver's W never has to live if they reconcile...
OTOH, when my H had his affairs, I chose to forgive him. And I am much happier for it...
25, thank you...
Denver,
I hope you know it would be mostly fear that would Prevent you from forgiving
fear of being hurt again, fear about loss of pride and wounded ego
none of these are reasons to forgive, Least of all fear
AND in my case,
the last thing I wanted to do was forgive my h (I sounded a lot like someone else who "enjoys" this debate, and avoids questions about his own role or what he said elsewhere...& deflects)
But it was NOT fear that got me to forgive
First, it was just me being tired of being consumed by my pain and feeling so "unfree". Always told people what h had done TO ME...wanted them to agree with me, validate all that I said, etc
I was not getting bEtter, I was getting bItter and did not like how I sounded when I talked to people, as I got a mere taste of what sbh is getting here and that bothered me.
and second, and more importantly,
I wanted to KNOW I'd done my best as a believer. I told my mc that.
If Christ didn't teach us about forgiveness as THE priority,
then I missed a major concept
Denver, I posted a story about forgiveness that might move you, as it did me. IT's around here, under "Forgive or else, what?"
good luck my L friend
You know I'm rooting for you no matter what. I am hoping you forgive, regardless of your other choices, and I know you get that.
Denver,
I hope you know it would be mostly fear that would Prevent you from forgiving
fear of being hurt again, fear about loss of pride and wounded ego
none of these are reasons to forgive, Least of all fear
I agree. Fear is a B!tch.However, I believe your W has told you what she wants. Validate her and move the opposite way.
Time and abstinence is what is needed at this point. Get away from the boards and figure out what you want Denver. You have a great opportunity here, but she does have to prove SHE is done with OM before you ever move forward. You will know.
Its time to start a new thread and take this off line...
This is not fair to Denver... Really sorry dude...
I disagree....
I think this is the perfect place to have a debate about forgiveness...
And the pitfalls of not being able to.
Exactly where Denver is.
The "superiority" complex displayed is exactly what Denver should take a glance at in his own situation.
And if is stings a bit ?
Then maybe it should be looked at more closely....
I agree with Mach. I have processed a lot by reading this conversation.
I hope you know it would be mostly fear that would Prevent you from forgiving
fear of being hurt again, fear about loss of pride and wounded ego
[b]
Thanks 25. The above statement is a very accurate statement of me and what I am battling. Fear about loss of pride and wounded ego. Those things are very strong in me... always have been.
One way that I am trying t look at is this...
If I decide now to walk away from my M and my W... to not forgive her.
In 5, 10 or whatever years, when the hurt is gone, when the feeling of having been disrespected is gone, when I have 'let it go' and long after OM has become a distant memory to both W and I...
When I run into my W and talk to her about her life, about ss's life, how am I going to feel? Am I going to feel regret at not having shared that life with her? Am I going to feel stupid for having let THIS cause me to miss that shared life together? Am I going to wish that I was the man who she ultimately did share her life with?
Is holding onto THIS... defending my ego... punishing W for disrespecting me... for wounding my pride... is it worth risking that the answers to those questions above might lead me to the ultimate regret?
Probably not.
Denver
Hi 25... I wanted to just acknologe my roll in the problems of my marriage.
I absolutly detached. But not until more than 8 years of MC. Not until AFTER I told my W that I'm feeling lonely in the M. Not until after I told her that I wanted us to be closer, more connected. I told her that I was feeling like I was emotionally disconnecting from her.
Yes I communicated every feeling I had for years.
I guess you could say that I was the emotionally abused spouse in my relationship.
And I did emotionally leave.
Not because I wanted to.
Not because I didn't live my W.
I guess the best way to describe it is I was Denvers W. I felt unloved and unappreciated. I felt taken for granted.
And so I detached...
And so I see the roll I played. And I'm not deflecting the fact that I emotionally detached.
But no one plays a roll in driving someone to have an A.
Because if I had an A. It would be because I'm weak. Not because my W didn't make me feel loved.
I guess a PA is just MY limit. It's something I couldn't get over. Because its the one thing that my partner and I share that no one else can. It's special and valuable.
And I realize that's just me.
But this board IS about opinion. And I have mine.
Would I forgive my W if she had a PA? At some point I would.
Could I completely get over it? No way...
It means so much more than just a pleasure of the flesh. It's a connection. And for ME (and I'm only speaking for me) THAT connection must stay intact, unbroken and untarnished...
this board isn't about opinion, or having the last word
it's about a [b]solution based approach to solving marriage problems based on MWD's approach, called divorce busting
[/b]
as for the role you played in your m's problems?
Sorry I just hear you justifying/minimizing your role...to you, it's really all her fault
& you were "Denver's w"? really?
so you were the same as the woman you said was "WRONG!" to have an A, "EVER! with "NO EXCUSES!" ??
and this is Denver's thread. Where's yours?
look,
I'm sorry you were so miserable in your m.
But after 8 years of MC--- what I didn't hear
from you,
is what or how YOU changed...just how she was still wrong & you were still being "victimized"
but I hear that you are lonely and hurt and for that, I'm truly sorry
What I changed? Whatever was needed...
When your S is truly unhappy within themselves there is little one can do.
I've always been the best H I could be. I still am. I vent here at times but at home I'm the person my W needs me to be. And I'm not a victim, I choose to stay. But that does not mean I'm not treated poolly.
My thread? No more for me. There is nothing anyone can help me with. I know what needs to be done. I don't say that to sound like a "know it all". I just know that the only person that can help me is me.
And as far as this board, I do have an issue with this new concept that everyone is wrong and everyone is right.
This is not a utopian world.
There is right and wrong in relationships.
There are victimizers and victims.
I look back and see how I treated my W and have no regrets.
If you knew me 25, you would not see the person you envision.
I am allowed to be angry.
And I know right from wrong. And I am allowed to point it out if I am being disrespected.
It's not ALWAYS about being happy or being right.
Denver caught his W with OM. She lied. She cheated. And she did it behind his back. And the only reason he knows is she got caught. Had she not been caught, he may have stayed another night. And it angered me.
Sometimes to been HAPPY, we need to point out what's RIGHT.
Just my opinion.
Hello Denver, you don't know me from these boards. I'm like a lot of newcomers, in that, I've been reading here (early on a month ago, sometimes reading all night)..
haven't posted about my own deal yet; so I don't know that this will even post before this thread locks. Anyhow, I feel compelled to offer my own two cents worth if you don't mind.
I needed to forgive someone once that I found the desire to, and even inwardly proclaimed my forgiveness for her (and him).. but wherever the rubber hit the road, I found myself wholly without the ability to forgive..
Someone said something to the effect, that a powerful dynamic re: forgiveness is simply the willingness to allow that forgiveness to come to her, for her, from the same higher source from which I seek forgiveness for myself.
I also had to assimilate the fact, that, I did not have clean hands in the whole affair, (affair).. see what I did there ;- )
Anyhow, the decompression was powerful. Free unmerited favor,
(sometimes unmerited in an abject, almost paradoxical sense)..
Forgiveness isn't something 'earned'. It's like real love; comes free of charge, dismisses any past indictments. Unless forgiveness (more apt, the willingness to forgive) is offered by the better loving man, on an unmerited basis; it's nothing much more than immature equivocating..
And again, this kind of forgiveness (the real deal, so to speak,)
isn't a built in ability to our human condition. It comes from higher up.
But, it is available to whosoever is willing to receive
it..
Peace
I wish you the peace that transcends all understanding..(even that of our own situations)
I'm 57, she's 56. I run her off with my own inimitable
drunken nonsense.. 22yr M (T 27 yrs.) 4 grown sons, lots of
fine grandkids.. I'm in Colorado, she's at the youngest sons
in N Carolina, ~ a month now. But I'm good, (better than I have any right to be,)
Thanks for your post Danl. I agree with you 100%. Post your story so that you can really benefit from all of the great wisdom around here. It has been invaluable to me.
Denver
beautifully, powerfully written Dani
"Amen" to Denver's response...
UPDATE...
I have not initiated any contact with W.
W and I had no contact from the time that we had our long convo (my last update) until Wednesday late morning.
I was at a coffee shop close to our house. W and SS showed up unexpectedly. I was sitting outside with my dogs. W and SS sat down with me. W and I talked about SS and his school situation and made other small talk.
I went inside to get another coffee and W stayed outside. While I was waiting for my coffee, there were 2 fairly attractive women waiting for their's as well. One of them was talking about putting vodka in a water bottle. I began joking with her and asked her if they were having a big party. They laughed and began telling me about a cruise that they are getting ready for, thus the vodka in the water bottle conversation. They got their coffee and left.
I got my coffee, walked outside and sat down with W. W said to me, "I think that girl wants your telephone number." Then SS said in a teasing way, "yeah, they were saying how cute you were."
I laughed it off, but I could tell that W was irritated.
A few minutes later, W asked me, "What, were you flirting with those girls inside?"
I said, "NO. I talked to them, but I wasn't flirting. Why do you say that?"
W: "I don't know. They sure acted like you had been flirting with them."
Me: "I was just being friendly W. I wasn't flirting."
SS then said to W, "Mom, why do you have to get mad about everything. He didn't even do anything wrong."
W did not respond, nor did I.
SS walked away and W then started in on me about how I always "presented yourself as single" when we were together. And then says that I need to "own your b.s. with SS so that he understands that I'm not getting mad for no reason."
I told W, "Listen, I know that there was a time that I did do that. But that was a long time ago W. I don't think that I have done that in a very long time. But I understand that it still bothers you."
SS came back over and I said to him, "SS, your mom wasn't getting mad at me without reason. I wasn't always respectful to her and probably wasn't setting a very good example for you when I did that. So I just want you to know that your mom had a reason to be mad at me, ok?" He said 'okay' and then went back to whatever he was doing.
W and I talked more about some other stuff. She seemed fine after I said what I did to SS. W then said that she was leaving to go run some errands.
Before she left, I said to her, "W don't think what I did with those women was wrong at all. I was just being friendly. Really. But I want to say to you that I have worked really hard to learn how I hurt you in the past and how not to do those things in the future. But it is a work in progress. I want you to be able to tell me when something I do bothers you. That's the only way that I can continue to learn."
W said, 'okay' and was friendly as she and SS got into her car. I told SS that goodbye and that I loved him. I told W bye and that I would talk to her later. She said ok and goodbye.
------------------
Didn't talk to W again until Friday.
On Friday, W texted me at lunch time.
W: "Just want you to know I may have found a place. It's a one year lease however. Haven't found anything for shorter. It's in Denver" (W and I live in suburb that is about 30 minute drive to Denver)
Me: "Ok W. I support you if you think that is the right thing to do."
W: "I think we aren't ready to be back together and I'm not sure what to do. I'm not dating anyone but I'm also not sure we are ready to work things out. I'd prefer not to move but I need to. I'd also prefer a shorter lease but can't find anything." (interesting that W reiterated that she's not dating anyone)
I did not respond. 15 minutes later W sends another text.
W: "There are a lot of things going on between SS and school, you and me, and needing to move. I just don't know."
Me: "I know. It is ok. I will support you no matter what. Let me know if you need help. If you decide that you want to stay in the house you are in now, I will help you while we figure things out."
W: "Maybe we can continue being separated and try to spend time together working through some stuff. I need to work on my anger towards you." (I am encouraged that W recognizes what she needs to work on)
Me: "I know. I really really do. It's ok."
W: "This house keeps SS at the same school. That probably is not a good option for him. I don't know what to do." (3rd time she said that she doesn't know what to do... just sayin)
Me: "No chance at getting him into your school or one of the others with the special program for him without moving?"
W: "No. Also haven't found a place near my school. Been looking but there are only apartments and I can't do that. I know the principal at one of the 2 schools with the special program, and he is a hard a$$. Probably have the same problems with SS. The other school is where S works as a dean. I hate to put S through that."
Me: "I still think having S there wold be a good thing. Not bad. But you definitely know better than me. I don't have any ideas. But Denver schools s*ck"
W: "Maybe you could help me get him into the school we know would be best for him instead of us risking another year of hell. We know that Denver Academy is best. It's just money."
Me: "W I will. But we really need to figure out how we're going to do that. I am fully committed to being a partner with you with SS. I am."
Me: "It's tough for me to be half involved, then out of the picture, then back in. I don't know."
W: "I understand that, but if we are taking space then I need a place. I'm going to do what I can to put SS in Denver Academy and I'm looking for a place by there for commuting reasons. We can still work on us and deal with living arrangements when the time is right, but me moving home in a week sounds like we are jumping the gun."
W: "I'd like to try to give it the summer before I consider moving back and I can't see how staying in our current house helps anything."
Me: "No, I agree. Let's talk later ok? I have to head to Boulder for court."
W: "K"
-------------------
I had court in Boulder. I decided to stay up there afterwards to go for a hike with some friends and then go out with them.
I texted W before I had too many drinks asking her to send me info on Denver Academy.
W called me.
W was irritated that I was out. Said something about how it must be nice to be able to afford to live it up.
I was nice as she vented her frustration about money.
We talked for about 45 minutes, but I can't remember much about it (guess that I had already had too many drinks LOL).
The gist of it was about SS and this private school and me telling W that there was no way that we could afford it AND be paying for 2 places.
I told W that if I were her, that I would stay where she is at for at least July, that trying to find a place by June 22nd is too much pressure. That if she signs a 1 year lease, then we are stuck in it even if we do work things out and she decides to move back into our house.
W is clearly frustrated with the problems that SS is having with school. She is right that the private school is the best option for him and his issues. I wasn't trying to pressure her into moving back into our home. In fact, I didn't even bring it up. Nor do I think that it is best right now. At the same time, what I said about not being able to afford a private school for SS while we have 2 places is true. It can't happen. So her choices are stay where she is, which she can't afford anyway, and have SS go to the school he has been in and has really struggled at. OR, move to another location where he could go to a different school... which probably wouldn't be any different. Her idea of moving by the private school makes no sense to me... it doesn't get him in there.
---------------------------
Saturday morning.
The following morning W texted me:
W: "Can I deposit that check you gave me?" (I had given W a check for $250 to help her about 3 weeks ago. W hadn't cashed it.)
I didn't respond (bc I was out cold and hung over from too much sangria)
W: "You must be hung over and asleep. I need coffee and have no money. I'm going to deposit the check. If u need me to give you money tomorrow I will."
Me: "Ok."
W texted me again a bit later.
W: "I need to pay off my credit card debt. Then I would be able to have money for things like survival and private schools."
That text sounded irritated and sarcastic so I did NOT respond.
W texted me again about 30 minutes later.
W: "Did you stay in Boulder or come home?"
Me: "No. I'm at home."
Me: "Going to go get some coffee. I will buy you one if you want to come by.
"
W: "Got one. Thanks though. Need to do some packing so I ran and came back. Gotta long day."
Me: "Ok."
-----------------
W called me a few hours later to ask me if I could print some lyrics for her show that night (she doesn't have a printer). I told her that I would.
W texted me a couple of hours later.
W: "Can you help me out by bringing the lyrics here and drop SS at his friend's house? Running later of course."
Me: "sure. Be there in a few minutes."
I went to W's house. She was in her bedroom blow drying her hair. I put her lyrics on the table and told SS to get his stuff. W did not know that i had arrived. I told SS to tell his mom goodbye. He ran upstairs to tell her. W came downstairs and thanked me. She walked me to the door and I left.
Didn't hear from W until this evening (sunday).
W texted me to tell me that she and SS were meeting her cousins at City Park by my office. She wanted to know if she could park at my office. I responded that she could.
A bit later, W called to tell me that she had parked at my office... and then she brought up the concert that we have tomorrow night. Neither of us had talked about whether or not she was still going.
I guess that she just assumed that she was going... she asked me what time the concert was.. I told her that I didn't know and that I would touch base with her tomorrow.
So that's it for now.
Good times!
BITS
Denver
Your wife does more temp checks than the weather man!!
Oh Denver, I believe
you're really about to enter the
"
Piecing" zone...SO read up on it...it's not easy and some say it's the hardest part
but they
overlook the value of HOPE and how it colors your efforts in rose colored glass...
when there is little hope to hang onto, things really sukkk
sure, piecing is hard b/c you want to rush it and yet still there are bumps
and they scare you b/c you think every back slide could be the last...
you have to both know you will backslide and it does NOT mean you are failing...SOME level of trust is mandatory it's hard,
but your goal is officially possible now...whether you want it or not...
also, your w is not off base in saying a move in next week is too soon.
Allow me a tiny quibble Denver, okay?
I thought your SS' observation at the coffee place was in fact TRUE
just b/c you did something wrong in the past does NOT make you guilty today
and I worry about undermining his perspective when he was spot on, in truth...ya know?
I mean, he saw the truth about you NOT flirting or doing anything wrong...and then he spoke up for you
and then got shot down-
all b/c you wanted to validate your w, who is
still living in the past and still holding grudges...
Not fair to him (or you) AND not "real data" about the Denver of [i]today
[/i]
she will have to start with the Denver of today as a threshold assumption
at some point
or you'll get rehashing too much and they'll set you back
you must be "allowed" to converse with "female people", not to mention how it helps you professionally, it's also normal friendly behavior.
I'm an extreme extrovert (Meyers Brigg confirms what I already knew about that, big family, lawyer, you get the picture)
but I usually manage to insert a comment about my h, or m, to somehow make sure I don't give the wrong impression with my outgoing nature. You can do the same. My H is comfortable with it (or so I think...
)
So maybe next time re word it so you address the fact that your w's reaction was triggered by
past mistakes of yours,
but yes, SS was correct, you did nothing wrong
that day
nor did HE
but otherwise,
and overall,
big picture stuff----
YES, this is good news! ...regardless of what you decide,
it's nice
not being in "stuckville", isn't it?
Congrats!.......
just think how you felt a few weeks ago
and say a big THANK YOU to the big Guy upstairs...at one point I believe you thought only
a miracle would help....well....
So ask HIM for help with the forgiveness part. (I read that God doesn't mind us asking for miracles
he wishes we asked for more of them...
honestly, I think you are on a road with some risks,
but which will ultimately lead you to a very good place
Stay on course,
you are doing wonderfully and resiliently well
and it's threads like yours and 9's and 2steps, FaithAK and many from my past here
who all remind me of what great partners men can be, how strong yet fragile their hearts are, how deep their loyalties,
and why it is
that I was able to hug my h, casting off my fears
jumping in with both feet
knowing that indeed it was the right thing to do.
Just so I know I've said it here, THANK GOD...for all of "this"
Denver, I have been following your thread closely as you have been getting some great advice. I don't have anything to add, but to wish you the best of luck with your decision.
Oh Denver, I believe
you're really about to enter the
"Piecing" zone...SO read up on it...it's not easy and some say it's the hardest part
Wow 25. That is REALLY Optimistic. Even I wasn't thinking that quite yet. Remember, I heard the same things back in March. However, I will say that at least my W seems to be proceeding with a little more caution that she was back then. Maybe that's a good sign.
I am proceeding with much caution right now and keeping the boundary that I have set very much in place.
I really hope that you are right though 25.
it's hard, but your goal is officially possible now...whether you want it or not...
also, your w is not off base in saying a move in next week is too soon.
I agree that her moving back in next week would be too soon. I'm not even sure where she got that. I certainly hadn't mentioned it. I'm not even 100% positive that this is what I want right now. I have to know that I can get over everything that has happened in the past several weeks. I'm feeling better about it and know that I want to be able to get over it, but it is still there lingering in my head.
Allow me a tiny quibble Denver, okay?
I thought your SS' observation at the coffee place was in fact TRUE
just b/c you did something wrong in the past does NOT make you guilty today
and I worry about undermining his perspective when he was spot on, in truth...ya know?
I mean, he saw the truth about you NOT flirting or doing anything wrong...and then he spoke up for you
and then got shot down-
all b/c you wanted to validate your w, who is
still living in the past and still holding grudges...
Not fair to him (or you) AND not "real data" about the Denver of [i]today
[/i]
but yes, SS was correct, you did nothing wrong that day
nor did HE
I agree. I actually did tell him that her anger was based on stuff that I had done in the past. I was torn on this though bc I didn't do anything wrong. I also know that W is extremely sensitive to SS blaming her for EVERYTHING recently. And I do want to validate her legitimate issues with me.
And since when do you ask for permission to 'quibble' with me??
but otherwise, and overall,
big picture stuff----
YES, this is good news! ...regardless of what you decide,
it's nice
not being in "stuckville", isn't it?
Congrats!.......
just think how you felt a few weeks ago
and say a big THANK YOU to the big Guy upstairs...at one point I believe you thought only
a miracle would help....well....
Again 25, I LOVE the optimism. But I guess that I am not quite there. I'm certainly not in stuckville as I feel a weird sense of empowerment ever since the OM on the toilet event, and since I laid out my boundary very clearly. But I don't feel out of the woods yet at all. I do feel tons better than I did a few weeks ago though.
you are doing wonderfully and resiliently well
and it's threads like yours and 9's and 2steps, FaithAK and many from my past here
who all remind me of what great partners men can be, how strong yet fragile their hearts are, how deep their loyalties,
Thanks 25. It means a lot to hear you say that. And yes, some of us men are capable of being half way decent!
[quote=25yearsmlcJust so I know I've said it here, THANK GOD...for all of "this" [/quote]
Working on this as well.
Denver
A few things. I take issue with your "Denver school s*ck" claim. My sister is a teacher in Denver. (mostly kidding)
I disagree with 25 to an extent. I think whether you did something wrong by flirting (yes call it for what it was) depends on your motivation. If you were doing it to "show" W that you still had it, You were wrong and you push her button. Would you have done the same thing with two unattractive, overweight women, what about two grandmas? You went out of your way to tell us they were attractive. Relevant? maybe.
I agree with 25, that you W has to be able to deal with this. Maybe now and in her face isn't the best time and place.
I agree with 25 in that there is nothing wrong with talking to women.
IMHO alot of it is your W's insecurity. In the past, maybe what she thought was flirting on your part was you being friendly. There is nothing wrong with that. She needed another man to validate her and to feed her ego because she thought you were giving it away to other women. That's BS to a certain extent. It depends on the individual. If she was confident and trusting in you and herself, she wouldn't be looking for something outside to create that feeling.
What one woman might perceive as flirting, another would think of it as no big deal. Plus when you talked to the other women, her own guilt of what she did started playing on her. After all, she had an OM that she hid from you, so you must also have ulterior motives. To a certain degree, you can't keep apologizing for everything. She's going to have to start growing herself.
Denver - I, too, think you might be entering the real piecing zone. I'm no expert, but based on what you've replayed for us, neither one of you is done - and both of you are pretty much all in, even if you (or she, really) can't admit it.
I just wanted to tell you, you're doing a great job. You know, don't beat yourself up over the small things (the women in the coffee shop, etc). We women don't like our men perfect, even though we might complain about it.
I'll suggest, not to get your hopes up on that piecing part.
In my shoes alone, and only from my experience, I only considered myself piecing AFTER I looked back upon time.
And thought, "Huh, guess I have been piecing awhile."
I didn't even want to call it that because I didn't want to jinx it.
When she is committed to working on your relationship and you are too...then... I'd call it piecing, but only to myself. Even doing so gives hope room to grow, and that creature should be chained and used only when you need it.
well Denver
I said you were "about to enter" the piecing zone...and I hope I'm right.
But as jack3 says, it's mostly a retrospective "diagnosis"...
and I mean it when I say it's NOT EASY. For me it simply meant "oh, we're really not done. We are exploring..."
One thing you said really grabbed me though.
You said
"I have to know that I can get over everything that has happened in the past several weeks. I'm feeling better about it and know that I want to be able to get over it, but it is still there lingering in my head. "
Denver, forgiveness is a process and none of us KNOW we will be fully successful at it til enough time has passed for us to figure out that "oh, we did it."
I think you have to know you're going to sincerely try your butt off to do it.
And then you do that.
For ME, moving in together was sort of that. IT was a "see if we can get past this..." and that Palm Springs trip helped me know I could shelve things for an amount of time...
seemed like forgiveness was going to be an extended version of that, over and over and that's what it was.
I finally said to myself,
"okay...objectively speaking, though H had his reasons, he was basically a selfish jerk for X amount of time...before then he wasn't, and now he isn't...and we have kids...SOOOOOO. He hurt me but doesn't seem likely to do it again, (not that way at least).....SO what now?"
Assuming, arguendo, that he was A BIG JERK...and that it was temporary--
do I HAVE to divorce him? Some think so...but
Why? To punish? See I don't think so.
Of course if I thought he'd do it again or if he did....I'd be done. For me, a DB ordeal is a once in a lifetime thing...
but
I think it was F. Scott Fitzgerald who said "every man is allowed to be an ass once in his life..."
I'm going with that.
(I'm positive F. Scott Fitzgerald said "forgotten is forgiven." And though you don't realize it now,
for long periods of time as you re-build,
with her or with someone else,
the guy on the toilet will no longer have the power to hurt you at all...
this is true.)
Just my .02
take care
I'm not going to give any advice to you Denver, just a word of caution.
I don't mean to rain on the party for hope, but countless times (Not all) on this board I have seen the WAS all of a sudden seem different and "honest", with the LBS later discovering the WAS just took their "A" deeper underground.
Granted she's a little different since this is "kind of" the second time you have witnessed this. I see a lot of positives but a long way to go.
Faith,
are we going to pretend nothing good has happened in Denver's sitch?
I GET that it's not all smooth and happy,
and the rainbow has not come out...
I promise you all, that I do get that.
But come on, this IS progress...
we have yet to see what it means and we're all
holding our breath and
advising Denver how to be careful but not to shut it out.
Of course Denver should be cautious. AMEN to that.
But still...
Faith,
are we going to pretend nothing good has happened in Denver's sitch?
We don't need to pretend. A lot of good has happened. No question.
But come on, this IS progress...
Very much so. Enough to talk "piecing"? Not yet.
we have yet to see what it means and we're all
holding our breath and
advising Denver how to be careful but not to shut it out.
Trust, but verify. My opinion, he keeps up his change and his new understanding; but she has to prove that she isn't with someone else while she is willing to work on this relationship. Fair? I think so.
She is still very angry. Anything can happen. However, she does show interest, honesty, and she is testing him in a good way.
Words of caution, not the end all.
Didn't mean to come across as a ball of negativity; just cautious.
Faith,
are we going to pretend nothing good has happened in Denver's sitch?
We don't need to pretend. A lot of good has happened. No question.
But come on, this IS progress...
Very much so. Enough to talk "piecing"? Not yet.
we have yet to see what it means and we're all
holding our breath and
advising Denver how to be careful but not to shut it out.
Trust, but verify. My opinion, he keeps up his change and his new understanding; but she has to prove that she isn't with someone else while she is willing to work on this relationship. Fair? I think so.
She is still very angry. Anything can happen. However, she does show interest, honesty, and she is testing him in a good way.
Words of caution, not the end all.
Didn't mean to come across as a ball of negativity; just cautious.
Seems reasonable to me, on all counts.
Unless I missed it, has Denver's wife agreed to no-contact and transparency with Denver?
Starsky
A few things. I take issue with your "Denver school s*ck" claim. My sister is a teacher in Denver. (mostly kidding)
er, sorry Harrier.
I'm only going by what I hear.
If you were doing it to "show" W that you still had it, You were wrong and you push her button. Would you have done the same thing with two unattractive, overweight women, what about two grandmas? You went out of your way to tell us they were attractive. Relevant? maybe.
Ha! Nice call Harrier. You called me out and you are probably right. I didn't even think about this until reading your post. I am a sucker for attractive women. Always have been. W, of course, knows this. Thus, the reason for much of her insecurity in this area.
I agree with 25 in that there is nothing wrong with talking to women.
IMHO alot of it is your W's insecurity. In the past, maybe what she thought was flirting on your part was you being friendly. There is nothing wrong with that. She needed another man to validate her and to feed her ego because she thought you were giving it away to other women. That's BS to a certain extent. It depends on the individual. If she was confident and trusting in you and herself, she wouldn't be looking for something outside to create that feeling.
What one woman might perceive as flirting, another would think of it as no big deal. Plus when you talked to the other women, her own guilt of what she did started playing on her. After all, she had an OM that she hid from you, so you must also have ulterior motives. To a certain degree, you can't keep apologizing for everything. She's going to have to start growing herself.
I agree Bond, but see my above answer to Harrier. In many ways, I have made my bed in this area.
I finally said to myself,
"okay...objectively speaking, though H had his reasons, he was basically a selfish jerk for X amount of time...before then he wasn't, and now he isn't...and we have kids...SOOOOOO. He hurt me but doesn't seem likely to do it again, (not that way at least).....SO what now?"
Assuming, arguendo, that he was A BIG JERK...and that it was temporary--
do I HAVE to divorce him? Some think so...but
Why? To punish? See I don't think so.
[u]Of course if I thought he'd do it again or if he did....I'd be done. For me, a DB ordeal is a once in a lifetime thing...
I think that this is how I am looking at it as well. If I thought for one single second that my W would have another A in the future, I'd be gone right now. I probably would have been gone back in February. But I don't. I think that what has happened has been a perfect storm. I was not a good H, W met someone who was nice to her, and yes, probably began to manipulate her once he found out that she was unhappy with me... all the while W was already contemplating or already preparing to leave me. It isn't W's character to be unfaithful. Not at all. If I thought it was... I wouldn't be here.
Thus, for me to walk away, would be punishment to her for wounding my pride and my ego.
That is what my ego would like me to do... and 'he' is fairly strong.
I think it was F. Scott Fitzgerald who said "every man is allowed to be an ass once in his life..."
I'm going with that.
(I'm positive F. Scott Fitzgerald said "forgotten is forgiven." And though you don't realize it now,
for long periods of time as you re-build,
with her or with someone else,
the guy on the toilet will no longer have the power to hurt you at all...
this is true.)
Very nice. And true. And again, you are correct, OM will no longer matter to me in the least bit at some point in the future... whether I am with my W or with someone else.
Thanks 25.
Denver
i always get the Grandma-types who want to talk to me.
Keeps me out of trouble, but then I'm pretty clueless.
I'm not going to give any advice to you Denver, just a word of caution.
I don't mean to rain on the party for hope, but countless times (Not all) on this board I have seen the WAS all of a sudden seem different and "honest", with the LBS later discovering the WAS just took their "A" deeper underground.
Granted she's a little different since this is "kind of" the second time you have witnessed this. I see a lot of positives but a long way to go.
Thanks Faith... trust me, I am being VERY cautious right now. I find it too good to be true that just 2 1/2 weeks ago, W was pushing me away and spending time with OM... and now, seems to be leaning towards working on the M.
I don't trust it.
UPDATE...
I will make this fairly short.
W and I had tickets to see Peter Gabriel at Red Rocks last night. I let W be the one to ask if she was still going... I let her contact me to find out what the plans were ... I was prepared to go alone if she hadn't contacted me.
She brought it up on Sunday night. Acted like she just assumed that she was still going. I just went along with it.
Monday she called me in the afternoon to find out what time I was picking her up and if we were going to eat dinner first.
The concert was GREAT. See this show if you have the chance.
W and I had a really nice time.
On the way to the concert, which was about 45 minutes from our suburb, W began talking about the possibility of us taking SS and my D to Disney World in July. Some of you may recall that this was a trip that I had looked into and brought up to W back in March or April.
So W gets on her phone and starts looking into packages to Disney World. Rooms that had 3 beds... 1 for SS, 1 for D, and 1 presumably for me and W (unless W plans on me sleeping on the floor or with Goofy somewhere)...
I have to almost laugh out loud at this happening as it is just SO frustrating. I am happy in the sense that W seems to be leaning towards working on our M, but it also made me really sad. It made me sad in the sense that I was looking at this trip back in March and April... and since that time, she resumed her A with OM... and hurt me very deeply.
I know that she knows that we have some issues that will need to be addressed if we are to reconcile. But right now, she's acting like the things that have happened in the past few weeks happened in a different reality... or didn't happen at all.
I mean 2 1/2 weeks ago, I found OM taking a cr*p on her toilet... and somehow managed not to kill him... NOW... W is wanting to go to Disney World with me and the kids just like NOTHING happened!
Ugh... very frustrating. And difficult to know how to even process everything right now.
It stormed at the concert for about 20 minutes. W and got very close under her umbrella. That was nice.
On the way home, W began to talk to me about how I make her insecure with how I am with other women in my life.... all friends, co-workers, ex-girlfriends, etc.
She told me that it makes her feel that she isn't good enough for me.
She told me that 'when' she is in my life it can't be like that anymore.
I told her that I know that I had made her feel like this, and that I had created the problem. But at the same time, I didn't think that it would be right for her to be too controlling.
W said that her feeling on this subject might change in the future, "in 6 months, 5 years, or never." But that she can't feel like she did bc it made her extremely unhappy.
I dropped W off at her house. She told me that she had a really nice time. I said that I did as well. We hugged and said goodbye.
----
I am still proceeding with a lot of caution. As I said above, things have almost flipped too fast for me to feel comfortable.
I mean, what has changed in the past three weeks? I caught OM at her house, told her that I was done, that I wouldn't be in her life if any OM was, and went dark on her for 3 days...
Was that enough to really create this kind of change in her? Or was she really being honest with me when she told me that she had already made a decision about her life BEFORE all of the above happened?
Rhetorical questions... just thinking out loud.
BITS
Denver
Denver,
I'm very cautiously optimistic for your R. Part of that may be because I see you as a little further into the process than me and some vicarious living by me through your drama.
The blowup and the darkness may have sparked a little something inside her that was (and probably still is) hiding under all of her doubts. A little ray of sunshine cutting through the fog of her mind.
My W contacted me today after 25 days of darkness and me stating the same thing about the OM as you. First thing she asked was what my plans for the U2 concert were
Told her I'd like her to come with me.
Tread cautiously but confidently. I really do have a good feeling for your R with your W.
UPDATE...
I will make this fairly short.
W and I had tickets to see Peter Gabriel at Red Rocks last night. I let W be the one to ask if she was still going... I let her contact me to find out what the plans were ... I was prepared to go alone if she hadn't contacted me.
She brought it up on Sunday night. Acted like she just assumed that she was still going. I just went along with it.
Monday she called me in the afternoon to find out what time I was picking her up and if we were going to eat dinner first.
The concert was GREAT. See this show if you have the chance.
W and I had a really nice time.
On the way to the concert, which was about 45 minutes from our suburb, W began talking about the possibility of us taking SS and my D to Disney World in July. Some of you may recall that this was a trip that I had looked into and brought up to W back in March or April.
So W gets on her phone and starts looking into packages to Disney World. Rooms that had 3 beds... 1 for SS, 1 for D, and 1 presumably for me and W (unless W plans on me sleeping on the floor or with Goofy somewhere)...
I have to almost laugh out loud at this happening as it is just SO frustrating. I am happy in the sense that W seems to be leaning towards working on our M, but it also made me really sad. It made me sad in the sense that I was looking at this trip back in March and April... and since that time, she resumed her A with OM... and hurt me very deeply.
I know that she knows that we have some issues that will need to be addressed if we are to reconcile. But right now, she's acting like the things that have happened in the past few weeks happened in a different reality... or didn't happen at all.
I mean 2 1/2 weeks ago, I found OM taking a cr*p on her toilet... and somehow managed not to kill him... NOW... W is wanting to go to Disney World with me and the kids just like NOTHING happened!
Ugh... very frustrating. And difficult to know how to even process everything right now.
It stormed at the concert for about 20 minutes. W and got very close under her umbrella. That was nice.
On the way home, W began to talk to me about how I make her insecure with how I am with other women in my life.... all friends, co-workers, ex-girlfriends, etc.
She told me that it makes her feel that she isn't good enough for me.
She told me that 'when' she is in my life it can't be like that anymore.
I told her that I know that I had made her feel like this, and that I had created the problem. But at the same time, I didn't think that it would be right for her to be too controlling.
W said that her feeling on this subject might change in the future, "in 6 months, 5 years, or never." But that she can't feel like she did bc it made her extremely unhappy.
I dropped W off at her house. She told me that she had a really nice time. I said that I did as well. We hugged and said goodbye.
----
I am still proceeding with a lot of caution. As I said above, things have almost flipped too fast for me to feel comfortable.
I mean, what has changed in the past three weeks? I caught OM at her house, told her that I was done, that I wouldn't be in her life if any OM was, and went dark on her for 3 days...
Was that enough to really create this kind of change in her? Or was she really being honest with me when she told me that she had already made a decision about her life BEFORE all of the above happened?
Rhetorical questions... just thinking out loud.
BITS
Denver
My Sister-in-law went to that show too. I also had my high school graduation there.
No real advice other than take it slow. But the question is what does that really mean. how slow is slow enough. You won't know this answer until you go to fast.
I think her looking up trips is somewhat of an anomaly. Just like what she looks to you for, you have every right to expect the same from here - consistency. If only you are being consistency then you are just dbing and not working on the M.
But stop and try to enjoy some moments, H3ll, you were on you way to a great concert (at the greatest venue IMO) with your W and she exploring taking a trip. Be happy for the sadness aside for a few hours.
Denver
Been reading your thread. Don't have any advice to give as I'm very fresh in this process. I just want to say that you give me hope. Not hope that my m will survive.. but that I can forgive and love again. I constantly see you "looking through the eyes" of your w and I just find that awesome. The thought that both parties are "right" is hard to swallow sometimes.
I hope I can one day show the strength, courage, and love you are showing. I want to with my w but when the conversations get tough, I revert back to thinking about me.
Cheers to you man! Keep the love flowing!
Val
Hi Denver, I'm so new, I almost don't feel comfortable giving anyone advice.
After reading your latest update, the first thing that I thought was that even though, it might be uncomfortable for you, you must assuage your w's concerns of insecurity in the m before you can voice your own recent om-related concerns.
I can relate to your w in so many ways (other than the A). As irrational is it might sound, her main focus is still on the hurt she felt in the M, and I think she feels/felt justified wrt the A for a time. However, she did make an attempt to convice you that she was no longer seeing anyone, so she may have realized that she hurt you too, might have gone too far, and doesn't want to lose you.
When she feels heard, she might be able to listen to your hurt, but not before. Fair? Maybe not. But that's my 2 cents.
I think that she is going about planning things as if nothing happened because she is hoping you are going to reassure her. She is giving you an opportunity.
Go on the trip, have a good time, and listen to her.
I hope I didn't repeat what someone else has already said!
Talk, with advice like that I hope you get comfortable giving it quickly. It is good advice, and nice.
Hi Denver, I'm so new, I almost don't feel comfortable giving anyone advice.
After reading your latest update, the first thing that I thought was that even though, it might be uncomfortable for you, you must assuage your w's concerns of insecurity in the m before you can voice your own recent om-related concerns.
I can relate to your w in so many ways (other than the A). As irrational is it might sound, her main focus is still on the hurt she felt in the M, and I think she feels/felt justified wrt the A for a time. However, she did make an attempt to convice you that she was no longer seeing anyone, so she may have realized that she hurt you too, might have gone too far, and doesn't want to lose you.
When she feels heard, she might be able to listen to your hurt, but not before. Fair? Maybe not. But that's my 2 cents.
I think that she is going about planning things as if nothing happened because she is hoping you are going to reassure her. She is giving you an opportunity.
Go on the trip, have a good time, and listen to her.
I hope I didn't repeat what someone else has already said!
I think that you are correct about how my W feels right now.
I am getting A LOT of advice from others who are VERY familiar with my sitch, other bits, that my W is taking advantage of me right now. These people are saying that my W feels that she can get anything she wants from me and is taking advantage of it.
I've posted the EXACT same updates with the people telling me this that I have here. I'm curious if anyone thinks the same thing here?
BITS
Denver
Right now she's in the entitlement phase. She feels entitled to what she did because of your past sins. Well I bet she wasn't exactly a saint either, but needs someone to blame for "forcing" her to have an A.
It's a fine line to dance right now. You have to somehow shift the dynamic where it's not you who has to prove to be trustworthy, but her. She has to see you as the person to be pursued. That's why when you confronted the OM and said you were done, she thought "whoah, I'm going to be left alone with no one." She has to want you. Don't make yourself too available. It's that pursuer/pursuee dynamic. She's starting to show some interest, now you have to slowly reel her in.
If you go after her wholeheartedly, then she knows that she's got you and not the other way around.
Denver,
I haven't popped into your sitch recently, and I apologize.
I am so glad you had a good time at the concert together. I bet it was nice to be able to just enjoy one another's company.
Just proceed with caution.
from Talk...
When she feels heard, she might be able to listen to your hurt, but not before. Fair? Maybe not. But that's my 2 cents.
I agree.
Denver, you have done A LOT to build/rebuild the relationship with your wife all along--you have had a lot of positives.
Going dark, setting boundaries, etc, doesn't do it all. It's the combination. It's what's in your hearts already. It's the undercurrent of love.
You won't move forward if you are too dark or set too many boundaries.
LISTENING is the start of REAL GIVING. And it will make or break you.
Talk gave you excellent advice.
Right now she's in the entitlement phase....
She has to see you as the person to be pursued. That's why when you confronted the OM and said you were done, she thought "whoah, I'm going to be left alone with no one." She has to want you. Don't make yourself too available. It's that pursuer/pursuee dynamic. She's starting to show some interest, now you have to slowly reel her in.
If you go after her wholeheartedly, then she knows that she's got you and not the other way around.
I agree 100%. Well put Mr. Bond. Well put.
Denver, don't put yourself on a pedestal that YOU are the man. You have a lot to prove too. It still rides on you and all your changes. You HAVE to be the man in the relationship. If you do this right she will pursue you. There will be no question when she wants to "Be with you, 100%".
HI denver
Im relatively new here - and been posting mostly to joural...see my posts on the newcomers board if you want background.....
so I'm definately NOT qualified in anyway to help - but thought I'd share my thoughts with you ... they might help...
I can relate to your sit. SO well - as I am going through almost exactly the same thing right now ..
I've realised through counselling and self help that I had very low self esteem ( deep rooted - always is!) insecurity, abandonment issues, anger issues ( but not physical in any way!!) and I was co-dependant.
So I have lots of issues I have to resolve as well as our marriage problems.
I decided 2 weeks ago to "put my marriage in a box on the shelf" for a little while whilst i continue the work I have to do on myself - and my husband agreed....we are continuing contact and seeing each other - but not "rebuilding" anything at this stage.
All this and my behaviours resulted in my husband having 2 EA's in 7 years - I didn't know about the first one until 12 weeks ago - and the 2nd one got physical with kissing ... I discovered all this at the end of february this year.
Both EA's lasted a few months, and there is definately no third party involved now.
he does everything he can to prove this to me - I have a set of keys for his accomodation, he leaves his phone lying around, I can use his laptop if i wanted to.
But because he is making me feel secure with these things - I'm finding that I dont have the urge to check on him.
His problem is that he knows he loves me - but because of what he has done - thinks he cant possibly love me the way he should.... he suffers untreated depression and has huge guilt and remorse for what he has done..
Anwyay - we entered couple counselling which helped us see WHY they happened - and I DONT blame myself - not at all -
he CHOSE to be unfaithful.. and he CHOSE not to tell me we had problems.....
but I DO have to accept a huge amount of responsibility for why they happened...
So anyway - we are at the moment undergoing a 6 month "controlled separation" - and he doesn't trust me at the moment to change my behaviours....
JUST LIKE YOUR WIFE SEEMS TO -
he wants me to PROVE to him how much I have changed - he almost feels justified for having the EA's.....
they were a FORM OF REVENGE FOR THE WAY I BEHAVED TOWARDS HIM
We are being affectionate with each other, occasionally making love ( because our goal IS to end up together again - otherwise this would be a huge NO-NO) and having a family meal together once a week.....
BUT I've realised lots of things over these 12 weeks - and now I am NOT so available to him -
Ive thrown myself into GAL - but for ME this time !!!
this is great advice all over the forum - and its true...
I STOPPED initiating every call, text, meeting, and its making a difference.
He wants ME to prove to him I'VE changed - HE is still hurt, and frustrated at the way i behaved in our marriage and is not ready to just forgive me just because I understand what i did..
I know i have changed - so like you - I am starting to feel now that I need HIM to WANT to pursue me.... BUT I KNOW I MIGHT HAVE TO WAIT QUITE A WHILE YET FOR THIS TO HAPPEN....
I know that the best advice I have been given is to BE PATIENT BE PATIENT and BE MORE PATIENT - AND MAKE THE CHANGES FOR YOURSELF!!!
I have 2 sayings i find inspiring right now -
He was a wise man to leave the woman I was
But he would be a fool to leave the woman i am becoming
and
I have not shut the door - I am just now standing here holding it open at the moment.
GOOD LUCK.....
I've posted the EXACT same updates with the people telling me this that I have here. I'm curious if anyone thinks the same thing here?
Yes.
Starsky
Right now she's in the entitlement phase. She feels entitled to what she did because of your past sins. Well I bet she wasn't exactly a saint either, but needs someone to blame for "forcing" her to have an A.
It's a fine line to dance right now. You have to somehow shift the dynamic where it's not you who has to prove to be trustworthy, but her. She has to see you as the person to be pursued. That's why when you confronted the OM and said you were done, she thought "whoah, I'm going to be left alone with no one." She has to want you. Don't make yourself too available. It's that pursuer/pursuee dynamic. She's starting to show some interest, now you have to slowly reel her in.
If you go after her wholeheartedly, then she knows that she's got you and not the other way around.
BINGO. ^^^Starsky
With all due respect to the very wise people who are advising you Denver, I do have some gentle concerns for you.
I don't think, based on what you've said about your wife, that she would deliberately manipulate you. I do also think you've both experienced some heavy shocks in the last couple of weeks and it wouldn't surprise me if she was a bit panicked at this point.
My concern is she may be drawing you closer to calm herself without really knowing what she wants beyond some short term soothing. That might be fine in the long run but it might also mean when she calms down she'll start another round of re-evaluation that might seem manipulative when you have the benefit of hind sight.
My more pressing concern is for you yourself. You have acknowledged a small doubt about your motives for wanting your wife back. I can relate to this.
I'm a 48 year old very sucessful criminal defence lawyer. My wife and I have been married for 23 years with three teenage daughters. My wife is a trained fine artist who spent much of her most productive years helping me build my law practice and raising our kids. I was the 'dominant' partner in our relationship and, like you, I abused that position at times. 16 months ago my wife told me she had enough and was 'done'. She started an 'exit' affair with a much younger singer who was in many ways my opposite and even according to her, an unsuitable partner.
My wife has since told me she was sure she was doing me a favor by leaving and that I would embrace my freedom because I didn't ever really want her. She was surprised by the efforts I went to save our marriage. Slowly, very slowly, we have been working our way back toward one another. During this process I've had to ask myself many times to be honest about my motivations. Getting honest answers has been an exercise in unravelling a lot of self deception and has been an extremely valuable process for me, no matter what happens with my marriage.
I would urge you to slow your process down. Take time for yourself to understand your motivations very clearly. I think it would be good for wife to do the same. I don't think you will regret the time you took. I think I understand the sense of urgency you may be feeling. That can be misleading in my opinion. If you and your wife reconcile you will have many years to work together growing your love, please don't let the opportunity to take six months to a year to build a solid foundation for that slip by because you acted from a sense of panicked urgency.
While I understand it, in my opinion, the coffees and meet ups everyday or every couple days is too much too soon. She asked for a month at one point. You thought three months. You both seem to be rushing past that. Like I said I think I understand the urge to 'strike while the iron is hot' and probably there's something too that but if you two have a basis for moving forward I don't think taking some time for yourselves right now will jeopardise it.
I wish you the best of luck with whatever you decide to do.
Great post Count. I think that it is very wise and you have some experience in this yourself.
ITs a tough act Denver. I want to believe that your wife is getting back to being the person that you knew all these years and would not manipulate, and MAYBE she is again.
Just dont be unaware that she is capbale of pulling the wool over your eyes as well.
ONLY time will tell what are her motives.
I like what Dantes said about YOU also having to earn her trust as well. ITs going to be a long slow ride, and I hope you can navigate it well.
9
With all due respect to the very wise people who are advising you Denver, I do have some gentle concerns for you.
I don't think, based on what you've said about your wife, that she would deliberately manipulate you. I do also think you've both experienced some heavy shocks in the last couple of weeks and it wouldn't surprise me if she was a bit panicked at this point.
My concern is she may be drawing you closer to calm herself without really knowing what she wants beyond some short term soothing. That might be fine in the long run but it might also mean when she calms down she'll start another round of re-evaluation that might seem manipulative when you have the benefit of hind sight.
My more pressing concern is for you yourself. You have acknowledged a small doubt about your motives for wanting your wife back. I can relate to this.
I'm a 48 year old very sucessful criminal defence lawyer. My wife and I have been married for 23 years with three teenage daughters. My wife is a trained fine artist who spent much of her most productive years helping me build my law practice and raising our kids. I was the 'dominant' partner in our relationship and, like you, I abused that position at times. 16 months ago my wife told me she had enough and was 'done'. She started an 'exit' affair with a much younger singer who was in many ways my opposite and even according to her, an unsuitable partner.
My wife has since told me she was sure she was doing me a favor by leaving and that I would embrace my freedom because I didn't ever really want her. She was surprised by the efforts I went to save our marriage. Slowly, very slowly, we have been working our way back toward one another. During this process I've had to ask myself many times to be honest about my motivations. Getting honest answers has been an exercise in unravelling a lot of self deception and has been an extremely valuable process for me, no matter what happens with my marriage.
I would urge you to slow your process down. Take time for yourself to understand your motivations very clearly. I think it would be good for wife to do the same. I don't think you will regret the time you took. I think I understand the sense of urgency you may be feeling. That can be misleading in my opinion. If you and your wife reconcile you will have many years to work together growing your love, please don't let the opportunity to take six months to a year to build a solid foundation for that slip by because you acted from a sense of panicked urgency.
While I understand it, in my opinion, the coffees and meet ups everyday or every couple days is too much too soon. She asked for a month at one point. You thought three months. You both seem to be rushing past that. Like I said I think I understand the urge to 'strike while the iron is hot' and probably there's something too that but if you two have a basis for moving forward I don't think taking some time for yourselves right now will jeopardise it.
I wish you the best of luck with whatever you decide to do.
very wise advice
Denver did I read that right?
You are worried that she is taking advantage of you.
IF I read that right, HOW can she be taking advantage of you if you let her. If you get something out of it and your eyes are wide?
You're a smart man, can you see advatnages of your own here?
It's like 'doormat'.
Are YOU a doormat? I'm asking YOU; no one else, I don't care what anyone else tells you. Only you.
Now; ask me if I was. You can ask anyone else. But the 'meat' of the matter, the answer is in how I feel.
Denver
Been reading your thread. Don't have any advice to give as I'm very fresh in this process. I just want to say that you give me hope. Not hope that my m will survive.. but that I can forgive and love again. I constantly see you "looking through the eyes" of your w and I just find that awesome. The thought that both parties are "right" is hard to swallow sometimes.
I hope I can one day show the strength, courage, and love you are showing. I want to with my w but when the conversations get tough, I revert back to thinking about me.
Cheers to you man! Keep the love flowing!
Val
That was a very nice post Val. Thank you.
Denver did I read that right?
You are worried that she is taking advantage of you.
IF I read that right, HOW can she be taking advantage of you if you let her. If you get something out of it and your eyes are wide?
You're a smart man, can you see advatnages of your own here?
It's like 'doormat'.
Are YOU a doormat? I'm asking YOU; no one else, I don't care what anyone else tells you. Only you.
Now; ask me if I was. You can ask anyone else. But the 'meat' of the matter, the answer is in how I feel.
I just need reminding sometimes Jack. Sometimes, when you begin to hear over and over that you are being a doormat, you begin to wonder 'maybe I am'. I guess that is what has been happening the past couple of days.
My goal is to save my M... not punish my W for anything that she has done. While I am not doing anything that I don't want to do, I also don't want to NOT do something just bc I feel that she has disrespected me in some way.
Thanks again.
Denver
I was going through some boxes full of old papers and stuff that I have kept, and I came across some emails that I had run across from my W to one of her friends and her sister. I found them bc W had left her email open... I hadn't been snooping.
Anyway, they are from the time when I first took her shopping for engagement rings. She was so excited. Reading the emails today made me very sad and choked me up.
I want to put them here bc they mean something to me now...
Nothing too exciting so only read if you are bored. LOL
W: "You'll never guess what we were looking at today!!"
F: "What? baby furniture? ENGAGEMENT RINGS????????"
W: "Rings... but DON'T TELL ANYONE!!!!"
F: "Yahhhhhhhhooooooo! How exciting!!"
W: "Trent just said... let's go in here... and we went into John Atencio... then Tiffany.. then Bailey... I was so freaked out and shocked... and excited of course!! He just wanted some ideas... he was really calm... funny how i was freaked out and he was calm. Anyway, he said it wouldn't be for Christmas... He wouldn't give me any idea of when or which on or how or anything! He still wants to do it on his own.. his way. So... I'll drop it from her on out and let him do what he wants. I'm just happy he looked!"
---------
W: "So yesterday when we were window shopping, Denver and I ended up looking at rings!!!!!!!! He said let go in here... JA, Tiffany and Bailey. I told mom and F, but please don't tell anyone else!!!!!!!!! Not even BIL. I don't want Denver to feel like everyone knows.
Thanks!"
SIL: "WOW. I can't believe that. That is exciting. I hope that he follows through! soon. Hahah. My fingers are crossed for you."
W: "Please don't say anything to BIL. He might slip up. I just don't want Denver NOT to ask because he feels like everyone is watching and waiting now. I was afraid to say anything to anyone bc he could wait for another year and we'd all be waiting. I also think he wants to do this on his own and not to have everyone involved."
SIL: "I don't think that would be a reason for him not to ask. Whatevah. We have all been waiting for a while now anyhow (and I'm sure he knows it. haha)."
W: "The rings we saw were beautiful! I know nothing about any of it though. Denver asked me if quality is more important to me than size. What do you think?"
SIL: "I would pick quality before size. Maybe not the very top notch, completely clear and no inclusions though. I suspect Denver would get you a decent size ring anyhow. Whatever you get, it's a gift from the heart and you will love it."
W: "We both seem to like round cut and platinum. I'm not going to say anything further to him. I know that it'll be beautiful either wa. I'll send you a couple of pics."
-------
Sorry nothing too exciting. Just broke my heart to read these emails today.
Denver
When I find stuff like that it always gets to me. I have a box of cards I received from STBX and the kids. I looked at them a few weeks ago. I am never doing that again.
Probably best for you to throw those emails away or put them somewhere you have to make an effort to get to.
I agree with BTM.
Hell Denver, I know sticking my hand into a running blender is going to hurt. It's not even something that tempts me when its running.
Some actions you just know are going to end in tears.
I agree with BTM.
Hell Denver, I know sticking my hand into a running blender is going to hurt. It's not even something that tempts me when its running.
Some actions you just know are going to end in tears.
Yeah... sent my day into a bad spiral.
Sometimes we just can't resist touching the stove.
I still look through my pictures sometimes. The ones of our D being born gets me every time.
We were SO happy. 16 months later...
Denver, I think going downward is good sometimes. You can come out of it with more insight.
I am so biased, so take this for what it's worth. I don't think that anything could make me pursue my H now. I can be patient and watch for signs of improvement, but I am way past the point where I could actively try to get him back. If he went dark, I would detach, if he seemed interested in someone else, I would disappear.
I took steps to get out of the M (opened a shop so I had my own income), your wife had an A. Both are ways to move out of the M. Partly because of my actions,my H now seems to want to save the M, and that means he has to stop the behaviour that caused me to take those steps. He also has to reassure me, over time, that they are lasting before I can envision a future with him.
You can stay open and listen to/understand her without being taken advantage of, or having expectations. This doesn't mean you have to see her all the time, just keep this in mind whenever the opportunity presents itself.
Denver, I think going downward is good sometimes. You can come out of it with more insight.
I am so biased, so take this for what it's worth. I don't think that anything could make me pursue my H now. I can be patient and watch for signs of improvement, but I am way past the point where I could actively try to get him back. If he went dark, I would detach, if he seemed interested in someone else, I would disappear.
I took steps to get out of the M (opened a shop so I had my own income), your wife had an A. Both are ways to move out of the M. Partly because of my actions,my H now seems to want to save the M, and that means he has to stop the behaviour that caused me to take those steps. He also has to reassure me, over time, that they are lasting before I can envision a future with him.
You can stay open and listen to/understand her without being taken advantage of, or having expectations. This doesn't mean you have to see her all the time, just keep this in mind whenever the opportunity presents itself.
Thanks Toon. I think that my W would respond in much the same way that you describe of yourself here if I over played my hand. I'm just trying to balance it out a little better than I did back in March. Give her the space that she says that she needs, keep showing her that my changes are real and permanent, and keep enforcing the boundaries that I set a few weeks ago.
Thanks again!
Denver
UPDATE....
Still have not initiated any contact with W.
W texted me on Tuesday afternoon to see if I had looked into Disney World packages. I had and sent her some of the information.
W texted me on Tuesday night to see if I could help her with some financial aid documents for her application for SS to attend private school next year. I told her that I would and to let me know on Thursday what she needed.
We talked and texted back and forth on Wednesday about the help that she needed. W was planning on going to a friend of her's for dinner. She asked me if she could come to our house afterwards to give me some documents that she needed faxed and so that I could help her with some questions on the application. I told her that she could after I got home from the gym.
I had not heard from her by the time that I got home from working out. She called at around 9 saying that she had just got home from her friend's house and the SS had a friend at the house for a sleepover. She suggested that I could come over to her place or that we could do it on Thursday. I told her that I would just go over there.
I arrived at her house. She invited me inside. We did took care of the application and she gave me the docs that she needed me to fax for her. That took about 30 minutes. Afterwards, she asked me if I wanted a drink. I told 'sure'.
We ended up sitting out on her front porch for about 2 1/2 hours just talking. Well, mostly it was W talking as she got a little tipsy. There was no R talk. We mainly just talked about SS, my daughter and life. It was nice.
SS came out and sat on my lap for a while at one point.
We said goodnight and I left.
The only talk having anything to do with our R/M was:
1) When we were doing the financial aid application, I noticed a desk lamp that looked a lot like one that I had a very long time ago. I asked her where she got it bc I thought that it might have been mine (thought that I had thrown it out a long time ago). W told me that it was OM's. I responded with a simple 'oh. it looks a lot like one that I used to have'. A minute or two later W said, 'I have a few things of OM's here that I will need to give back to him eventually.' I didn't say anything.
2) W was talking about her teaching job and all of the politics with the school district. She said that she thought that maybe she could make just as much money just singing, giving voice lessons, and doing private tutoring if she got fed up with the politics. She said, 'that is something that you might want to consider if I'm back with you.' I said, 'what do you mean?' W said, 'I may decide that I don't want to be a teacher anymore.' I told her, 'That doesn't matter to me W.'
----
W and I have tickets to another concert tomorrow night.
I'm finding it odd that W told me 16 days ago that she wanted to just be completely by herself in June yet she is contacting me almost every day.
I have no idea if she is talking to OM. She told me that she was done with that ... also 16 days ago. I guess that I just have to trust that unless I see signs that that is not the case.
One thing that I have noticed is that the vitriol that my W had towards me, the outward anger... that she had through much of April and all of May has not been there. W has been much more pleasant to me.
I keep going back to the comment that she made last Friday night that she needs 'to work on my anger towards you'. Maybe she is actually doing that. I am cautiously optimistic.
I do sometimes find myself lost in thoughts of anger and hurt over what happened with OM when I am talking with W. It is a fresh wound that I am still not over. I have found this more difficult to move past than in February when I initially found out that she had dated OM.
That's all for now.
BITS
Denver
Denver--
I hear you regarding old correspondence. Heck, I have emails from two weeks prior to the bomb which assure me W "will love me for years".
Recently my sister did an audit/"his-hers sorting" of old memorabilia and that put me through the wringer seeing old love letters from when we were 16. But you know, mixed in were a lot of great letters from other friends and it actually helped me remember how many people care about me--and one of them provided a clue to find an old friend I'd been searching for for over a decade, and it was great to get in touch with her finally (innocently, people!)
While it hurts tremendously, it can be sometimes good to remember that things used to be fantastic. It helps me believe that my M is still worth fighting for, because right now it just seems an endless supply of pain.
I'm guilty of reviewing old letters and emails from W. I sorted through probably 6 years of emails about a week before going dark. It was painful, but in a good way I think. Like I said in my thread, it's somewhat a sense of closure, that this part of my life is done and I have to move on.
While it hurts tremendously, it can be sometimes good to remember that things used to be fantastic. It helps me believe that my M is still worth fighting for, because right now it just seems an endless supply of pain.
completely agree!
Glad to hear she has calmed down. In your description of the evening together, this jumped out at me.
She told me that it makes her feel that she isn't good enough for me.
She told me that 'when' she is in my life it can't be like that anymore.
I told her that I know that I had made her feel like this, and that I had created the problem. But at the same time, I didn't think that it would be right for her to be too controlling.
W said that her feeling on this subject might change in the future, "in 6 months, 5 years, or never." But that she can't feel like she did bc it made her extremely unhappy.
I assume that you know what she is talking about. I have a problem with the idea that someone MAKES someone else feel a certain way. This by no means absolves you from thoughtless or boorish behavior. You should not engage in thoughtless, boorish or hurtful behavior. On the other hand, chatting in line at a coffee shop with women is not equivalent to staying out at bars flirting with women, or having a lapdance.
There's got to be a balance here. If she is hypersensitive and feels hurt every time you talk to a woman, that is her problem, not yours. I am reminded of the over-bearing husbands who accuse their wives of infidelity if they so much as speak to a man in the neighborhood.
Denver,
Start flirting with 'ugly' women. : )
This serves many purposes.
Keeps you honest, while maintining your skill level.
Keeps you wife from feeling insecure.
Makes the person feel good.
Win-win-win.
Start flirting with 'ugly' women. : )
Denver,
Have not posted to you before but am following along, your sitch is encouraging.....
The only advice I would offer is that if you do this up there ^^^^^^^^^
it is easier after a few beers...
Cheers
He was a wise man to leave the woman I was
But he would be a fool to leave the woman i am becoming
I love that ^^^ ... so true.
Thanks Cinders.
BITS
Denver
Start flirting with 'ugly' women. : )
Denver,
Have not posted to you before but am following along, your sitch is encouraging.....
The only advice I would offer is that if you do this up there ^^^^^^^^^
it is easier after a few beers...
Cheers
Jack, MHL... great advice!!!
I'm guess that's what I'm going to have to do! At least for a while. LOL
Denver
it is easier after a few beers...
My experience.
Be careful, you'd be amazed at what start looking good after a "few" beers.
UGLY GIRL
Always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind.
My daddy married an ugly girl and thought that she'd be true,
Then came along the milkman and I am living proof.
So always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind.
My brother married an ugly girl he thought he had it made,
Every time she got undressed the neighbors pulled the shades.
So always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind.
My uncle married an ugly girl the family got uptight,
They had a formal wedding so they paint the shotgun white.
So always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind.
My sister married an ugly girl the family was surprised,
They found out on that wedding night that girl was an ugly guy.
So always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind
Uncle married an ugly girl, she drank from a special cup
She had a great big upper lip, but the lower lip covered it up.
So always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind.
When you make love with an ugly girl, she never wants to quit
Cause she thinks that it's the last that she'll ever get.
So always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind.
My mom dated a very gregarious irishman for 10 years when I was a kid. He flirted shamelessly with ANYONE! Big, small, young, old, he couldn't help himself. Even in his 80's, women loved him.
He died 3 years ago and I wouldn't be surprised if he had flirted with every woman at the service at some point in his life.
His first wife, his late wife, and my mom - who have all been friends for years - hugged and cried together at the service, and still keep in touch regularly.
Thanks Toon. I think that my W would respond in much the same way that you describe of yourself here if I over played my hand. I'm just trying to balance it out a little better than I did back in March. Give her the space that she says that she needs, keep showing her that my changes are real and permanent, and keep enforcing the boundaries that I set a few weeks ago.
Thanks again!
Denver
This, Denver! This is what I am looking for from my husband. I think this is what your W is looking for from you, also.
I also wanted to say that my sitch mirrors yours, too, in that my H was "completely done" with me at one point in mid to late February. He wrote me this final-I'm-done email that wished me well in life with a washing-his-hands-of-me tone. At that point, I let go of him. I said some of the things that you said to your W. "I do want this M, but I'm no longer willing to accept..." and I truly began to feel single. Not dating-wise, but just no longer as tied to him or even slightly invested in us as a couple. Then, two weeks later, he did a complete 180. I think it really hit him that I might move on. He flipped out. There were the constant texts, the calls, the pursuing. The lashing out. And then, he just got really nice. And bought a cafe where I work so that he could be even
more tied to me. And honestly, he hasn't been this consistent and this normal in a long time. So, four months later and I'm almost, slightly beginning to gain the slightest bit of hope.
I think the same thing happened to your W when you found OM on the toilet.
Hey, MLCers can't be the only ones having all the fun, PEI.
Starsky
Hey, MLCers can't be the only ones having all the fun, PEI.
Starsky
Granted. But at whose expense?
It's Friday afternoon, I'm leaving the soapbox under my desk (for now
) ...
Have a great weekend
PEI
Guess it's a good thing I didn't do the post about fat girls.
Guess it's a good thing I didn't do the post about fat girls.
... <PEI pulls the soapbox out from under her desk> ...
...
could it be?
That Starsky is not moderated? : )
I am
pullin' the tags off the mattresses, baby.
Thanks Toon. I think that my W would respond in much the same way that you describe of yourself here if I over played my hand. I'm just trying to balance it out a little better than I did back in March. Give her the space that she says that she needs, keep showing her that my changes are real and permanent, and keep enforcing the boundaries that I set a few weeks ago.
Thanks again!
Denver
This, Denver! This is what I am looking for from my husband. I think this is what your W is looking for from you, also.
I also wanted to say that my sitch mirrors yours, too, in that my H was "completely done" with me at one point in mid to late February. He wrote me this final-I'm-done email that wished me well in life with a washing-his-hands-of-me tone. At that point, I let go of him. I said some of the things that you said to your W. "I do want this M, but I'm no longer willing to accept..." and I truly began to feel single. Not dating-wise, but just no longer as tied to him or even slightly invested in us as a couple. Then, two weeks later, he did a complete 180. I think it really hit him that I might move on. He flipped out. There were the constant texts, the calls, the pursuing. The lashing out. And then, he just got really nice. And bought a cafe where I work so that he could be even
more tied to me. And honestly, he hasn't been this consistent and this normal in a long time. So, four months later and I'm almost, slightly beginning to gain the slightest bit of hope.
I think the same thing happened to your W when you found OM on the toilet.
Thanks TG. I think so too. It's good to hear that I may be on the right track.
Denver
...
could it be?
That Starsky is not moderated? : )
yeah, whose big idea was that?
...
could it be?
That Starsky is not moderated? : )
Not for long by the looks of it!
CS,
You got the wrong guy. : )
I'm a crossing guard; not the 5 Oh.
Hey PEI...
RELAX...
Besides, who knows what these guys think is ugly...
George Carlin did a skit once about it not mattering as long as you were naked...even if you were 80 and hand to roll them up and hold them in place with a clothes pin...
(I think I will cover my eyes, thank you)
So if that says anything about men...
Loved the poem Starsky...
UGLY GIRL
Always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind.
My daddy married an ugly girl and thought that she'd be true,
Then came along the milkman and I am living proof.
So always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind.
My brother married an ugly girl he thought he had it made,
Every time she got undressed the neighbors pulled the shades.
So always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind.
My uncle married an ugly girl the family got uptight,
They had a formal wedding so they paint the shotgun white.
So always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind.
My sister married an ugly girl the family was surprised,
They found out on that wedding night that girl was an ugly guy.
So always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind
Uncle married an ugly girl, she drank from a special cup
She had a great big upper lip, but the lower lip covered it up.
So always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind.
When you make love with an ugly girl, she never wants to quit
Cause she thinks that it's the last that she'll ever get.
So always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind.
hmmmmm....
Jack-
I think we're just hall monitors
UGLY GIRL
Always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind.
My daddy married an ugly girl and thought that she'd be true,
Then came along the milkman and I am living proof.
So always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind.
My brother married an ugly girl he thought he had it made,
Every time she got undressed the neighbors pulled the shades.
So always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind.
My uncle married an ugly girl the family got uptight,
They had a formal wedding so they paint the shotgun white.
So always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind.
My sister married an ugly girl the family was surprised,
They found out on that wedding night that girl was an ugly guy.
So always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind
Uncle married an ugly girl, she drank from a special cup
She had a great big upper lip, but the lower lip covered it up.
So always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind.
When you make love with an ugly girl, she never wants to quit
Cause she thinks that it's the last that she'll ever get.
So always marry an ugly girl 'cause thats the only kind.
She'll never ever leave you and if she does you won't mind.
hmmmmm....
Jack-
I think we're just hall monitors
Man, the conversation on my thread has really taken a turn for the worse!
Guess it's about time to start a new one.
I was just going to lock you -- so go for it!