Ok... My last thread got closed out.
I NEED SOME GUIDANCE PRONTO....
Update...
W texted me tonight at 9 p.m.
W: "I need copies of our taxes from last year. Also, we need to decide what we are doing about the taxes we got an extension on. are those last year's? When are they due? I need to provide financial documents for SS's school if I apply for financial aid and I need to do it asap."
I DID NOT respond
W texted me again at 10:30 p.m.
W: "Excuse me. Are you playing the silent treatment game?"
I DID NOT respond.
1) I don't know if W really needs a copy of our taxes.
2) W accusing me of playing silent treatment game is exactly the kind of thing that I worried about by taking a tough approach with her. That it would make her recall cr@p that I did back when we were together.
Ideas here?
BITS
Denver
P.S. I owe some responses to some of the posts from my last thread. There were a lot of good ones. Probably won't get to that until this weekend.
I'm glad you posted. Maybe you saw it but here is what I posted a few post down.
I KNOW what you are feeling bud.
Sorry your thread is locked, hope you find this. I couldn't really give my all on your post because I have been extremely busy at work.
You asked a question that struck me about the no contact detachment. You asked Do I contact her?
"Most of the advice has been to cut off contact. Detach.
Where is that going to get me?"
I want you to understand that this gift of time and no contact is actually more involved than just YOU. It's for her as well. Your changes as long as they are for you will not go unnoticed by her. BUT she needs to feel the reality of your loss and if what the new you was showing is real. (7-8 years vs 6 months?)
Excuse the bluntness, but you literally caught her with her pants down. She is so F'n angry right now and full of entitlement just like YOU. I hope you understand that.
IF you decide to contact her right now, there are a few consequences you need to EXPECT, not saying they will happen, but you need to know.
One, she will do ANYTHING to alleviate her guilt. Including trying to draw out the old you where you react badly. She will try to get you to justify her actions for her poor decisions. She will also try to massage your ego with any means necessary to see if she can GO BACK to cake eating. S*cks, but it's true. Be on guard.
Two, she's addicted man! She likes the OM and what he brings. Chances are she sees you and your changes and is scared to F'n death that it's real. So she might run back to him to get her "high" and "escape".
Three, you know where you stand. YOU issued a boundary and like it or not you have to follow through. Believe it or not, but what you will cycle thru the next few days to months will play mind games on yourself. Women like MEN who stand up for themselves. YOU can feel and think whatever you want, but a man in control of their decisions and boundary is ATTRACTIVE. Live the boundary. If she just keeps blowing you up. Text her what 2step said, stating "you need time"; back away. Don't be woe woe woe is me; state what you want clearly and you will let her know. SHE KNOWS your mad bro. She does. She also knows SHE F'd up.
Fourth, Only you can ask yourself this. What do I want? what is my non negotiable unalterable term? If I was to save my Marriage, what do I want and how will I be different for the rest of my life? Once you can answer this, then live it and don't hesitate.
Why no contact? Because you do owe it to her to let her figure her own actions out for herself and LET her tell you what she wants. You meet your half of the Marriage obligation and she owns hers. How is this accomplished? TIME. 90 days Denver. Keep posting here...DO NOT RESPOND TO HER. She needs the space just as much as you do even if she keeps contacting you.
Oh, and dating? You? Your not ready yet. You're too hurt.
Good night.
Ok... My last thread got closed out.
I NEED SOME GUIDANCE PRONTO....
Update...
W texted me tonight at 9 p.m.
W: "I need copies of our taxes from last year. Also, we need to decide what we are doing about the taxes we got an extension on. are those last year's? When are they due? I need to provide financial documents for SS's school if I apply for financial aid and I need to do it asap."
I DID NOT respond
W texted me again at 10:30 p.m.
W: "Excuse me. Are you playing the silent treatment game?"
I DID NOT respond.
1) I don't know if W really needs a copy of our taxes.
2) W accusing me of playing silent treatment game is exactly the kind of thing that I worried about by taking a tough approach with her. That it would make her recall cr@p that I did back when we were together.
Ideas here?
BITS
Denver
P.S. I owe some responses to some of the posts from my last thread. There were a lot of good ones. Probably won't get to that until this weekend.
It's expected. She is drawing you out.
NO CONTACT.
Also, Starsky had some posts that were held and finally posted AFTER your thread was closed. Please go read his comments through several parts.
You have received so much good advice man. I'm here posting tonight, because I remember what I felt when I ran into my W and OM 3 hours after she lied to me.
Knowledge and experience is everything.
Trust, but verify too
Thanks Faith. I am sitting here watching my cell phone as W repeatedly calls me. She has now called me 33 times without me picking up. She has lost her mind.
I will have to go back and read those posts that I missed.
Denver
I'm not going to rain on your parade or feed your ego Bro, but she is panicking.
You need her to feel this. She's desperate. You are not. In a couple days you need to just say "I can't answer you right now, I need space". BUT not right now. STAY STRONG and keep posting til you get the green light. NOW = NO RESPONSE.
Ok... My last thread got closed out.
I NEED SOME GUIDANCE PRONTO....
Update...
W texted me tonight at 9 p.m.
W: "I need copies of our taxes from last year. Also, we need to decide what we are doing about the taxes we got an extension on. are those last year's? When are they due? I need to provide financial documents for SS's school if I apply for financial aid and I need to do it asap."
I DID NOT respond
W texted me again at 10:30 p.m.
W: "Excuse me. Are you playing the silent treatment game?"
I DID NOT respond.
1) I don't know if W really needs a copy of our taxes.
2) W accusing me of playing silent treatment game is exactly the kind of thing that I worried about by taking a tough approach with her. That it would make her recall cr@p that I did back when we were together.
Ideas here?
BITS
Denver
P.S. I owe some responses to some of the posts from my last thread. There were a lot of good ones. Probably won't get to that until this weekend.
So I posted the above update about 30 minutes ago. Since then, W tried calling me 35 times. I did not answer the phone.
She then texted me this:
W: "You are an immature child. What, are you five? More proof of why I left you. Your avoidance tactics and silent treatment are ridiculous and any adult would be sick of your games after 8 years. Grow up. I need my tax stuff or the contact info for the woman who did them. The sooner you give me that info, the sooner I will be out of your hair."
Denver
Ok... My last thread got closed out.
I NEED SOME GUIDANCE PRONTO....
Update...
W texted me tonight at 9 p.m.
W: "I need copies of our taxes from last year. Also, we need to decide what we are doing about the taxes we got an extension on. are those last year's? When are they due? I need to provide financial documents for SS's school if I apply for financial aid and I need to do it asap."
I DID NOT respond
W texted me again at 10:30 p.m.
W: "Excuse me. Are you playing the silent treatment game?"
I DID NOT respond.
1) I don't know if W really needs a copy of our taxes.
2) W accusing me of playing silent treatment game is exactly the kind of thing that I worried about by taking a tough approach with her. That it would make her recall cr@p that I did back when we were together.
Ideas here?
BITS
Denver
P.S. I owe some responses to some of the posts from my last thread. There were a lot of good ones. Probably won't get to that until this weekend.
So I posted the above update about 30 minutes ago. Since then, W tried calling me 35 times. I did not answer the phone.
She then texted me this:
W: "You are an immature child. What, are you five? More proof of why I left you. Your avoidance tactics and silent treatment are ridiculous and any adult would be sick of your games after 8 years. Grow up. I need my tax stuff or the contact info for the woman who did them. The sooner you give me that info, the sooner I will be out of your hair."
Denver
Pure spew
Test, Test, Test.
Not here to do anything other than tell you the truth. J3B, a good friend would tell you the same thing, Starsky posted it, I'm living it too bud.
AGAIN NO RESPONSE. TEST TEST TEST.
Hurts and is confusing as hell isn't it?
Hang in there. I'd add you on the alt if I could figure out how to find you.
I think you should pick up the phone and call her...ASAP
just kidding...
What Faith said makes the most sense at this moment in time. Heck, that's all you can go by.
Since she told you to put her mail in the box so you don't have to see her, why not put that tax stuff there too?
And btw, is there anyway she can hurt you with that info?
Meaning, keep a copy.
And don't tell my feminists friends I said this, but that "garbage" Faith said about what we women want from men...is mostly true. WE like strength and even if
the guy is "punishing" me, (in reality simply enforcing a healthy boundary) b/c I broke a boundary and that's the result, I think a part of me would know it wasn't all him, AND would be able to see that in time...
and yes I would be more attracted to him than to someone who relents and caves too much.
I think you should pick up the phone and call her...ASAP
just kidding...
[/i]
You scared me there for a sec 25. Thought I was screwing up. LOL
I am going to scan the taxes and email an attached copy to her tomorrow with no comments.
Complete agreement. Leave it. She's trying to draw you out.
You are not giving her silent treatment. YOU ARE DONE.
If she's smart, she'll figure out how to get what she needs. She's certainly smart enough to figure out how to push your buttons.
She wants to be out? Then she needs to figure out how to do things herself, without your "help".
If a prospective client did this to you, behaved this way with you, what would you do? I mean aside from filing a harassment tort... :-)
I think you should pick up the phone and call her...ASAP
just kidding...
What Faith said makes the most sense at this moment in time. Heck, that's all you can go by.
Since she told you to put her mail in the box so you don't have to see her, why not put that tax stuff there too?
And btw, is there anyway she can hurt you with that info?
Meaning, keep a copy.
And don't tell my feminists friends I said this, but that "garbage" Faith said about what we women want from men...is mostly true. WE like strength and even if
the guy is "punishing" me, (in reality simply enforcing a healthy boundary) b/c I broke a boundary and that's the result, I think a part of me would know it wasn't all him, AND would be able to see that in time...
and yes I would be more attracted to him than to someone who relents and caves too much.
LMAO!!!
25 I'll marry you if you H ever leaves you again :P
(God, please forgive me for saying that)
I go away for a few days, and I miss all the action! I'm sorry that it has come to this, but I was afraid that you were on a collision course, and it was pretty much bound to happen.
By all means, stick to your guns at this point. You said you were done and moving on. You need to show it. She may chase you, and she may not. It is better to move on to a new happy state than to stay stalled in the old unhappiness. Only time will tell. There is real hope for a marriage when 2 people want it. But you weren't there before. She will have to make a lot of changes for there to be hope for this marriage.
Denver,
if it's possible, just make physical copies of the taxes and mail them. Sending her an email may invite a response back.
It's funny that she said you were acting like a five year old. I was told (indirectly) that my goodbye letter was written like a twelve year old. Funny how immature we are, isn't it
Denver,
I agree completly with 25. It is hard for women in today's society to admit that they need and want a strong man.
I feel so badly for you guys. I mean, most of us don't want the caveman who is gonna drag us around by the hair and beat on his chest. We want a man who is sensative and gentle when necessary and who is strong, knows his mind, and has faith in himself and his actions and isn't afraid to show that when it is necessary. Someone who is able to lead. And you all need to be able to figure out which way to act when... because we can't always tell you...
I like the idea of giving her the tax info without actually having contact with her...
The truth about last night, you COULD have been ignoring her, you COULD have been on a date, you COULD have been puking your guts out from some bad chicken you ate...
SHE doesn't know what was really going on, but she jumped to the conclusion that she wanted to believe...
Sound familiar?
Let her wonder...
LOL 25mlc I bet Denver was reaching for the phone! Sorry to laugh Denver, I'm not laughing at you..but it just hit a funny bone.
Yes she is in panic mode,,,,,fine.....I like your idea of e-mailing the taxes, It does sound like its important for your SS and schooling.
She is angry right now...and any contact at this point is NOT going to go well. Its gonna be the same ole shiot, round and around and around. Just let her spin at this point. I remember being there a few times during our seperation. It was frustrating to say the least. BUT I was the WAW, that was demanding space and time, He gave it to me and I was surprized as heck that he did.Best thing he ever did....
Hang in there buddy...
And whats your galing plans this weekend?
Stay safe
Regards,
Sunny
Denver-
I am so proud of you for sticking to your guns.
35 times?? She has lost her mind.
I also think that making copies and then mailing them to her is the way to go.
I'm so sorry your hurting. I know how painful this is.
Just to give you an example of what I've done in the past, Denver.
IF you send her the info in an email, like others have suggested, it may be an opening for her to respond.
What I have done is simply put an appropriate subject (in your case: "tax info"), put nothing in the body, and attached the file.
Then, in those tense moments where they might have been a response, I would carefully move her email to a storage folder, for later review. And then forget about it.
Yes, maybe there's was something nice in the response, but right... never happened of those I finally read.
No contact is for you, first. Send her the info and then ignore any response if it comes.
Just to give you an example of what I've done in the past, Denver.
IF you send her the info in an email, like others have suggested, it may be an opening for her to respond.
What I have done is simply put an appropriate subject (in your case: "tax info"), put nothing in the body, and attached the file.
Then, in those tense moments where they might have been a response, I would carefully move her email to a storage folder, for later review. And then forget about it.
Yes, maybe there's was something nice in the response, but right... never happened of those I finally read.
No contact is for you, first. Send her the info and then ignore any response if it comes.
Great ideas, Kaffe. You can also set up an intermediary; I've seen this work well for others.
Starsky
The one thing I will say about a boundary is this.
If you do not clearly express what the boundary is, and just assume that they should KNOW what it is,(And yes reasonable people should KNOW that sleeping with another person while married (legally) despite wishing or wanting to the contrary, will have repurcussions, but we aren't dealing with reasonable people anymore) you're being...passive aggresive/ a non-confrontational whimp/ @$$hat...pick one.
Defining the boundary is just as important as following through with the consequences of having one.
Once established? Let her turn her hands bloody pounding on the walls of it, if she cannot abide by the rules of it.
Denver, JMO, but I would not send it as an attachment to an email. I would use snail mail. I don't know what a proof of delivery signature would do in your case, but I would use one.
I don't understand the level of need for this information.
Good Luck, You're in my prayers. I am sorry you are going through this. If it is any consolation I am learning from it also.
I usually do my taxes at 11PM at night on June 2nd and only then but I have to get them done by midnight or my return turns to coal. I see why she is desperate for a response. Just saying...........
I usually do my taxes at 11PM at night on June 2nd and only then but I have to get them done by midnight or my return turns to coal. I see why she is desperate for a response. Just saying...........
You too? Heck that's a lot more common than I thought then.
If you set a boundary do it right, or don't become upset when it fails.
I usually do my taxes at 11PM at night on June 2nd and only then but I have to get them done by midnight or my return turns to coal. I see why she is desperate for a response. Just saying...........
LMAO!!!!
starsky
edit - supposed to sound more funny than snarky.
When I set up my boundary I said I have to talk to you about the bills and our boys, and that is all I will talk to you about.
Anytime she tried to talk about other issues, either I would ignore the email or I would respond, "So we are done talking then?"
What I have done is simply put an appropriate subject (in your case: "tax info"), put nothing in the body, and attached the file.
Just did that Kaffe.
I don't understand the level of need for this information.
I don't either. I kind of doubt that it is something that she needs right away. My guess is that it is just a reason to contact me.
It certainly isn't at the level of needing to call me 35 times straight last night. That much I know for certain.
If you set a boundary do it right, or don't become upset when it fails.
Have I not set my boundary correctly? I don't know Jack, it seems that I was pretty clear with her on Tuesday:
"I'm removing myself from the equation W."
"But I simply can't continue fighting under these circumstances. I think that if you really think about it, you will understand. At least I hope so. I don't hate you. I love you. I always will."
"Go be happy with OM W. I'm not saying or doing anything to stop you. I'm removing our marriage as plan B for you. You have not been fair or honest."
"I do NOT want this W! But I REFUSE to live in an open marriage. The last thing in the world that I want is for you and SS to not be a part of my life. I do not want this. I've said it for 6 months. How many times to I have to say it and in how many ways for you to understand that? You are leaving me with no choice at this point. No choice! How could you even respect me if I didn't walk away at this point? How could I respect myself?"
"I just didn't realize that give you space and time to figure out if you could forgive me meant that you'd be f'ing someone else in the meantime. Sorry, but I'm not okay with that."
"I know that I can't control you. I'm not even trying to. But I deserved to know so taht I could make decisions regarding my life accordingly. Now I know. And now I'm going to move on. I want to be married. I want a family. I want someone who loves me and wants my love. That is no longer you."
"what I'm saying is that I'm unwilling to continue fighting for you under these circumstances. It is too painful. I don't think that it is fair to me. It isn't fair to SS. and frankly, it isn't fair to OM. I'm going to let you live your life without me in it. And I'm going to do what I can to heal from all of this and move on."
"No, that is where my boundary is. I am not okay with that. I will not live in an open marriage. I do not think that you need to date OP to sort through things. It's been 6 months and I haven't."
"I'm not asking you for anything. I don't want anything from you. I'm not trying to convince you of anything and I'm not trying to get you to do anything. I am moving on with my life. I don't want anything from you at this point. I'm shutting the door on our marriage."
If you set a boundary do it right, or don't become upset when it fails.
Have I not set my boundary correctly? I don't know Jack, it seems that I was pretty clear with her on Tuesday:
"I'm removing myself from the equation W."
"But I simply can't continue fighting under these circumstances. I think that if you really think about it, you will understand. At least I hope so. I don't hate you. I love you. I always will."
"Go be happy with OM W. I'm not saying or doing anything to stop you. I'm removing our marriage as plan B for you. You have not been fair or honest."
"I do NOT want this W! But I REFUSE to live in an open marriage. The last thing in the world that I want is for you and SS to not be a part of my life. I do not want this. I've said it for 6 months. How many times to I have to say it and in how many ways for you to understand that? You are leaving me with no choice at this point. No choice! How could you even respect me if I didn't walk away at this point? How could I respect myself?"
"I just didn't realize that give you space and time to figure out if you could forgive me meant that you'd be f'ing someone else in the meantime. Sorry, but I'm not okay with that."
"I know that I can't control you. I'm not even trying to. But I deserved to know so taht I could make decisions regarding my life accordingly. Now I know. And now I'm going to move on. I want to be married. I want a family. I want someone who loves me and wants my love. That is no longer you."
"what I'm saying is that I'm unwilling to continue fighting for you under these circumstances. It is too painful. I don't think that it is fair to me. It isn't fair to SS. and frankly, it isn't fair to OM. I'm going to let you live your life without me in it. And I'm going to do what I can to heal from all of this and move on."
"No, that is where my boundary is. I am not okay with that. I will not live in an open marriage. I do not think that you need to date OP to sort through things. It's been 6 months and I haven't."
"I'm not asking you for anything. I don't want anything from you. I'm not trying to convince you of anything and I'm not trying to get you to do anything. I am moving on with my life. I don't want anything from you at this point. I'm shutting the door on our marriage."
(yes, I counted), and you claim that you're not trying to
convince her of anything? LOL
And those are just the edited highlights!
Any boundary (or two) that can't be stated in 50 words or less, you're only going to come across as fuzzy at worst, and PURSUING and/or CONTROLLING at worst, Denver.
Starsky
It's wordy but vauge.
It's almost an R talk. Lots about what you want and don't want. Hurt and guilt.
Short. Simple. Do X and Y happens. Do not do X and Z happens.
A boundary (which is an ultimatum) is black and white.
A or B. Yes or No.
Denver,
those "boundaries" are also all after the fact.
When if ever, did you say you were not to date while separated? Yeah I know she SHOULD have known, but whatever...
Do you know if you ever actually said it? A lot of WASs seem to think they have a "free pass" for some amount of time, and appear shocked (SHOCKED, I tell you!) that's it's not the case.
Or that the time line ran out on them...they'll say "Oh I thought we were separated and therefore..."
or "I thought I'd move back in on the 20th, ("and it's only the 15th, so I can still have OM til then"...)
You okay?
Denver,
those "boundaries" are also all after the fact.
When if ever, did you say you were not to date while separated? Yeah I know she SHOULD have known, but whatever...
Do you know if you ever actually said it? A lot of WASs seem to think they have a "free pass" for some amount of time, and appear shocked (SHOCKED, I tell you!) that's it's not the case.
Or that the time line ran out on them...they'll say "Oh I thought we were separated and therefore..."
or "I thought I'd move back in on the 20th, ("and it's only the 15th, so I can still have OM til then"...)
You okay?
The closest that I ever came to setting that boundary 'before' the fact was the day that W told me that she was having OM over for dinner bc she wanted to be supportive of him as his father was dying. I told her that I 'didn't know' if I would continue being in her life if OM was back in her life.
So, what should I do? You and Jack seem to be telling me that I am enforcing a boundary that I didn't properly put into place. At the same time, everyone is telling me not to have any contact.
I'm okay 25. I can't say that I am happy and I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't depressed. But I'm hanging in there. Thank you for asking.
Denver
The truth about last night, you COULD have been ignoring her, you COULD have been on a date, you COULD have been puking your guts out from some bad chicken you ate...
SHE doesn't know what was really going on, but she jumped to the conclusion that she wanted to believe...
Sound familiar?
Let her wonder...
Yes Cat it sounds familiar. But the conclusion that she jumped to would be correct. As I'm confident that mine was the other night.
BTW, sorry that I didn't respond to your post from the other day. I continue to appreciate your thoughts and advice.
Thank you CAt.
Denver
I'm not going to rain on your parade or feed your ego Bro, but she is panicking.
You need her to feel this. She's desperate. You are not. In a couple days you need to just say "I can't answer you right now, I need space". BUT not right now. STAY STRONG and keep posting til you get the green light. NOW = NO RESPONSE.
Yes Faith. I think that you are right on all of this.
Denver
"Denver, you're getting so much advice here and everyone is trying to make their points it is confusing and at times conflicting; surprised your head hasn't exploded.
What I got from above is a sense of...entitlement.
You throw 6 months out, that's fine. I'll counter with: Have you changed? You'll likely say yes, and I'll agree
Have you changed enough? Or is the above post of yours indicative of the guy who's character lead him here?
Quote:
At what point do we need to begin to look out for ourselves though?
The whole time I did. I looked at my wife and realized that while she was 'running' if I didn't do my best, I would also likely always end up 'running' away as well. I used everything and everyone I could to last as long and go as far as I could.
Was I doormat? I could give 2 sh1ts what anyone else thought or thinks. This was my character, my vow, my wife, and my family.
Quote:
Yes this has been the 'worse' part of my M vows.
On your end.
I wonder when it was 'worse' for her?
But we only feel slighted from our hurt our pain.
If you believe in karma, its cuts both ways.
Quote:
But what happens when your W just takes advantage of you sticking with her through the 'worse'?
How is/was she taking advantage of you?
Are you paying for her apartment?
Did she lie to you? Yeah more than likely. More than likely. Don't get me wrong I'm not the type to believe they only hung out...but only 2 people in the entire world KNOWS EXACTLY what happened that night, and I'd trust neither of them.
Your anger? It is justified.
The part that worries me about you Denver is this, and I mean this honestly and truthfully:
Quote:
At what point do we need to begin to look out for ourselves though?
When have you prior to 6 months ago, not looked out for yourself?
This is the corner stone of your wife's fear."
Yes, this is the corner stone of my W's fear. I understand that Jack. But it doesn't justify the continuing A.
And yes, I believe in karma. That is what is happening to me. The worse for W was the 10 months before she left me. But she didn't end up sticking with me for that either. She LEFT.
Denver
Gnosis and ThatGirl007 - I didn't get a chance to respond to your posts before my last thread was closed out. I just want you to know that I did read them. Thank you for your thoughts and advice. I appreciate every lit bit of both that I can get.
Denver
Denver,
I'm proud of you for just attaching the email and not sending some vague words with it. I have to agree with Jack and others that if your quotes were really your verbatim quotes (nearly impossible to recap verbatim THAT MUCH dialogue)...it's way too much. She doesn't know what you mean.
You don't have to worry about enforcing a boundary that you didn't set. Let that go.
What you do have to worry about in sorting your advice is being the jerk versus the hard line.
You should be a strong man---problem is, you've never had that problem, you are not in that category, you don't have to be stronger. You have to be clearer. You have to do the hard line without the sting/edge. And that's where you know your wife's words have a ring of truth to them.
And that's the problem with some of the guys who get the hard line advice, some advisers and some take just become jerks. Of course, that's not what everyone who is recommending the hardline means (many of them, like Jack, are able to spell out the difference).
Kaffe's advice/what you did was perfect.
1) You don't need to immediately respond to her, you definitely don't need to give an explanation.
2) You weren't a jerk, you gave her something she truly needed, truly information you would have to give her, no more no less.
3) You weren't 'nice' or explanatory about it...offering her all kinds of sorry I didn't answer you yadayada...
4) You didn't send any fighting words.
Perfect.
Now--you have an infinite number of options. Your 'high road' (the DB way) is just like what you did above. Set a boundary for yourself that you will take the high road:
1) NO PURSUIT (no initiation of any text, email, call, yada yada)
2) NO JERK (you have some (not every) right to feel like being a jerk--don't do it, you may seal your fate in a way you will regret)
3) NO NICE right now.
I know you recognize the things that got you to this situation on your end, and you haven't lost site of that. That doesn't mean you deserve this sit that you're in, but you're not the innocent who has been wronged either.
Don't let your anger and hurt drive you.
Sunny/Cindy - I didn't get a chance to respond to your post on my last thread. I've read it multiple times and have cut and pasted it.
I think that it is VERY valuable to get the perspective of a WAW. I thank you for that... and your honesty. I know that you 'get' my W's feelings. I know that most, if not all, WAW's would. I get it. It is seeing it from my W's perspective that brought me here... and has kept me in the fight for these past 6 months. I simply don't know if it is enough after what happened the other day though.
One question for you. You mentioned my W's comment that she had made some decisions about her life and said that it was your opinion that that decision was in favor of my M. Why do you say that? I took it as b.s. ... W trying to tell me that I really f'd up by doing what I did on Tuesday morning.
Thanks again Sunny.
Denver
Denver,
I'm proud of you for just attaching the email and not sending some vague words with it. I have to agree with Jack and others that if your quotes were really your verbatim quotes (nearly impossible to recap verbatim THAT MUCH dialogue)...it's way too much. She doesn't know what you mean.
You don't have to worry about enforcing a boundary that you didn't set. Let that go.
What you do have to worry about in sorting your advice is being the jerk versus the hard line.
You should be a strong man---problem is, you've never had that problem, you are not in that category, you don't have to be stronger. You have to be clearer. You have to do the hard line without the sting/edge. And that's where you know your wife's words have a ring of truth to them.
And that's the problem with some of the guys who get the hard line advice, some advisers and some take just become jerks. Of course, that's not what everyone who is recommending the hardline means (many of them, like Jack, are able to spell out the difference).
Kaffe's advice/what you did was perfect.
1) You don't need to immediately respond to her, you definitely don't need to give an explanation.
2) You weren't a jerk, you gave her something she truly needed, truly information you would have to give her, no more no less.
3) You weren't 'nice' or explanatory about it...offering her all kinds of sorry I didn't answer you yadayada...
4) You didn't send any fighting words.
Perfect.
Now--you have an infinite number of options. Your 'high road' (the DB way) is just like what you did above. Set a boundary for yourself that you will take the high road:
1) NO PURSUIT (no initiation of any text, email, call, yada yada)
2) NO JERK (you have some (not every) right to feel like being a jerk--don't do it, you may seal your fate in a way you will regret)
3) NO NICE right now.
I know you recognize the things that got you to this situation on your end, and you haven't lost site of that. That doesn't mean you deserve this sit that you're in, but you're not the innocent who has been wronged either.
Don't let your anger and hurt drive you.
Thanks Dbmod. I am trying to sort it out right now. What I want and how to get it. There is a lot of conflicting advice and it is tough to decide which way to go.
Denver
I know that and it is the reason I respond.
Cat - I did read your last post on my closed out thread. I don't think that you are a harda$$... you are real. I appreciate that. Please continue to throw me any advice that you can.
"Just be sure that you are doing right for you...
Not out of anger, not out of some strange sense of being disrespected (which must be a male concept because I just do NOT get it), not out of hurt...
Removing yourself from the equation, is not what I question, if it is what you need to do for you to heal...
It is the WHY and the HOW that I have issue with...
I will never advocate being a doormat, however I don't believe digging deep within and doing what is right for YOU, whether it goes against what other people think is right or not, is being a doormat..."
Cat - I believe I am a doormat if act like or say that I am okay with something W does that I am not okay with. If I go out and buy her a nice pair of shoes even though she is not committed to the M, well, that is something that I am obviously okay with.... even if others see it as me being taken advantage of.
When W sleeps with OM, I am not okay with that. If I don't voice or act on, my refusal to tolerate that, then I am a doormat. IMO.
I think that disrespect that you mention being a male trait... is absolutely so.
Why am I removing myself from the equation? Because my W is doing something that I cannot be a part of. Bc it is too painful for me.
The how? Well, I'm figuring that out too. I don't have any plans to file for D at this point. I am just closing the gates at this point.
Thanks Cat.
Gucci - Read your post on my last thread. I appreciate it and would appreciate any other thoughts or advice that you may have in the future.
Thanks man.
Denver
Damn Starsky and his posts! Always kicks my page 3 or 4 pages down!
OKAY problem:
W called my cell phone 8 times this afternoon. I did not answer.
She disabled my cell phone after leaving me a message telling me to contact her if I didn't want her to do that.
Cell phone is in her name. I do not have the password. Verizon can't help me without it.
Advice?
If this weren't so sad, it would be funny!
Denver
If I recall your paying for the phone with your CC.
Cancel the payments. Doesn't make sense to pay for a phone you can't use.
Then get a new phone.
End of problem
No reason to contact her unless you want to escalate
So now she’s threatening you? Not attractive.
When I say she’s angry and entitled, SHE is livid. She might as well be in the next Exorcist movie.
If you cave to her threats, then you show her that you can be treated poorly.
My ex lied to me pretty much the whole time; but when I found reality … She turned into a Monster! AND I MEAN ONE THAT SHOOTS FIRE out of her nose and mouth. It was like pure hate.
It’s going to take a little while for her to calm down, but until then, prepare to get a new phone.
I mean first the taxes at 11 pm and now threatening you. Man, stay strong! It’s going to get worse before it gets better.
Test after test after test.
get a new phone...
I can't decide about you cancelling all of the phones b/c I'm too happy that's she's screwing her head in the ceiling...
I'm not objective, beyond saying that you need to get a new phone. You cannot allow your w to control your effin' phone b/c she's having a tantrum.
But as for canceling hers (I assume she has a phone too, and you are paying for it??) I'm on the fence. Very tempting...but might look punitive.
Okay I worked it out!! (Wow, my genius works fast!
)
Get a new phone but don't cancel hers yet...it's too close to her idiotic behavior and will look too much like tit for tat.
IMHO
I am not attempting to sound like a hard a$$ but why would anyone pay for a phone that they can’t use. It does not make sense to me it is smart financial decision.
And you can’t cancel her phone Denver all you can do is cancel the CC that is being used for a phone that you don’t have
If Denver is still paying for a phone that his wife is using to actively conduct her affair, then shame on him. THAT should have been done, MONTHS ago.
No time like the present.
Starsky
P.S. I'm sorry you have to keep searching for my posts, Denver. I'm still "fully moderated," although I'm not quite sure why. I've been a good boy!!
Starsky
I don't disagree with you in principle.
I'm just saying that if he cancels it NOW, as opposed to waiting a few days, it'll look punitive.
But let me make sure I "get" what's going on regarding the Finances & the cell phone (s).Here, our cell phone bill is in an all in one "Family Plan." We have 5 phones, (h, me, and our 3 kids, 2 of whom live on the other coast or away from home). They are now old enough to pay their way, but b/c of the family plan we only pay $12 per kid phone so they reimburse us, but they are on our plan. We all have unlimited texts, free in-plan calls, etc. We talk more because of it and that makes me happy
BUT If I stopped the cc payment, then 5 phones get turned off.
B/C I was the parent who bought/co-signed the first 2 phones with my kids when they went to college, my name is the primary
and only I can make changes to anyone's plan.
Is your bill a "family plan" or individual? Assuming your bill is somehow combined with hers, then I say you should wait a bit so it does Not look as if you are
reacting to THIS.
Maybe after you reflect on it
and with a goal in mind that isn't punitive, such as Not subsidizing violations of your boundaries, you cancel the cc.
Maybe not.
NEXT ISSUE...
I think that your w MIGHT have a point here. You tell me if I'm missing something b/c it's very possible.
[b]
But when you two separated, it seems to me that no one discussed, let alone established, the expectations & goals of the separation.
No, It's NOT a "given" to most people, to "know" what the other spouse wants/thinks/hopes.
[/b]Were you taking a "time out/cooling off time",?? (in which dating is clearly off the table)????
OR was this a final step to "double check" your goal of divorce, in which case dating
is debatable
OR were you supposedly working on the m, while apart, In which case it's kinda clear you should Not date...
OR was it a punitive act by one or both of you?
This has to be factored in.
You cannot know what SHE thought,
but you do know what was said and arranged at the time of the sep.Hate to rehash it all, but what happened in the first place, that got you two sep?
If it's in your first threads, tell me where to look.
Okay that's all I have for now.
Sorry for your pain, Denver. We all feel lousy for you.
Hey Denver
Just reaching out. Hope all is well tonight.
You have the 911 if needed friend. All weekend.
Starsky
I don't disagree with you in principle.
I'm just saying that if he cancels it NOW, as opposed to waiting a few days, it'll look punitive.
Yes, now that he's waited this long, it'll probably look that way to his wife. I personally would be more concerned with Doing The Right Thing, than I would be with how things appear to my wife who was just caught actively cheating on me. I mean, seriously, blowing up his phone with 35 phone calls in a row . . . can she REALLY get any more p*ssed than she is already?
Denver should not be paying for things that directly enable his wife to run away from her family.
Starsky
Is your bill a "family plan" or individual? [/b]
Assuming your bill is somehow combined with hers, then I say you should wait a bit so it does Not look as if you are reacting to THIS.
It is a family plan 25. And I share your opinion on not canceling our cell phone plan. Either way, it is taken care of. I will explain in my update.
I think that your w MIGHT have a point here. You tell me if I'm missing something b/c it's very possible.
[b]
But when you two separated, it seems to me that no one discussed, let alone established, the expectations & goals of the separation.
No, It's NOT a "given" to most people, to "know" what the other spouse wants/thinks/hopes.
No. When we separated, we did not talk at all about expectations or goals of the separation. W was D-O-N-E. We spoke very, very rarely at all for the first 2 months of S.
Prior to leaving, when I discovered EA (at the time) with OM, she told me that she didn't know if and when she was going to date, but that it was a possibility.
So, when we began to discuss reconciliation in February, W disclosed that she had indeed dated OM at some point during the 2+ months after she left our home. I did not ask specifics as to when that began. She did say that it was after she moved out. That is all I know.
In March, she told me that she had cut off all contact with OM and agreed to work on M. We went to 2 MC sessions. The first went great. A week later, the second did not. W told me and C that she wasn't ready to commit to working on M... That is when W began to distance herself from me.
In April she told me that she and OM had begun to 'keep in touch again'. That she didn't think that it was fair that she had felt forced to cut him out of her life 'just because you got your sh!t together'. She admitted that she still had feelings for OM and that she missed him. That it was very difficult for her to cut him out of her life like she had.
In May, she told me that she needed space and time. That things weren't going to happen on my timeline. She told me when she had OM over for dinner. Said that she wanted me to stay in she and ss's life and that she thought that things would just 'sort themselves out'.
I found out last night, that she began to 'hang out' with OM just in the past 2 weeks.
See my update for current status.
So what is your opinion 25? Cat? Does W have a point?
We are separated, and W was DONE when she left. She met someone and dated him. I get that. I was able to put that aside in February when I found out and when W led me to believe that she wanted to work on M.
This time around is more difficult for me though. Yes, we are still separated. And I guess that it can be argued that W never fully committed to the M, but she did lead me to believe that we were heading in that direction. I guess that this is where I have the problem.
I don't think that she was completely honest with me.
At the same time, I think that it is important for me to at least try and understand this from her perspective. I don't want to end my M and later realize that I should have understood or expected this or that it wasn't as big of a deal as I had made it out to be.
Sometimes, when I try to put myself in her position... in other words imagine if I had met someone and had dated during our S ... I see that it might be very difficult for me to cut that off and just return to the M. Especially if the person that I was dating was someone that had been giving me something that I was desperately missing in the M.
OTOH, I made the decision not to date during our S. And IN MY VIEW, that was the RIGHT thing to do... the moral thing to do.
OTOH, I was not DONE as W was DONE when we separated. I had not made the decision to move on with my life as W had.
This is why I go back and forth.
Denver
Denver,
Maybe I missed the update...IDK...
How many hands do you have?
When are you going to stop trying to reason everything and just start accepting what is?
Listen, I get it...
Mutual friends could tell you that I think things to DEATH, bring them back to life, and think them to DEATH again before I can decide that I am making myself CRAZY and just decide to accept...
But they won't so I will...
Yes you should be trying to understand HER perspective, because YOUR way and thoughts aren't the ONLY way...
You made assumptions about the direction based on minimal words and movements from your W (which were positive) but I do believe I recall people warning you that she hadn't committed...
I believe that I recall people telling you to take it slowly...
To be cautiously optimistic...
That you might NOT be getting the ENTIRE truth...
And you wanted to believe your W, you chose to believe your W...
I can't, I doubt anyone can, fault you for that...
However, it was a mistake...
To put all of the apples back in the cart before it was time...
That has led you to feeling like you are at square one again...
You are not...
My honest opinion, you are still looking at her too much...
Waiting for HER to decide what you should do...
Playing this like a chess game, move, counter move...
This isn't a chess game, this is your life...
Do you love this woman?
Do you want to fight for this?
Even if that means doing NOTHING but giving her time to decide what she wants to do, living as a MARRIED man, even if she is living as a SINGLE woman, (you don't have to have contact and whatnot with her while she is doing this), allowing yourself to feel things and heal without having every single feeling making you feel like you need to make some sort of life altering decision?
You NEED to answer those questions....for you, not for me, and honestly, I don't really want to see a "response post" about this...
Stop being a lawyer and start being a man Denver...
You can do this if you want to...
That is it without the update...
Denver,
You have to try her perspective b/c you essentially called her a liar. If that's not the case then you need to revise that -
WITHOUT CONTACTING HER...
You both need space obviously. You have do something different and time apart IS different.
Let the good memories resurface. Let her wonder about what you are up to.
Make the changes you need to make without the temperature taking you do so often.
As for the rest, see Cat's post ^^^ above. I agree with 90% of it.
The only caveat is whether her dating OM is a dealbreaker for you.
Sounds as if you want a way out of thinking it has to be a dealbreaker...
Here's a lawyer way of looking at it
In hindsight, we know there were NO "contractual terms", that she breached...
there wasn't really a contract at all,
then there was for awhile,
temporarily and then she changed her mind
& gave you notice that she did not want to be in that contractual R...
So there's no contractual r now.
Putting it in normal terms like a man and woman ought to...
what do you want to do? THE ANSWER IS YOU DON'T KNOW so you MUST take time off this and reflect...
let some memories and other feelings surface...("sort themselves out").
Do you really believe this OM will compare favorably to you over time?
IF not, then back off and let it play itself out...
If so, ask yourself why and figure out if you want to make adjustments.
Ask nothing of her now.
I don't have any more, without the "update" unless that message above was it...was it?
Oh and Did you get a new phone?
Before your 2x4s---
You don't really need them.
This relationship is yours (and your wife's) to decide, no one else's. Your life and your choices are your own. You are the only person who has to live the consequences of what you choose to do--even though everyone has an opinion.
You do what YOU can live with.
You are right Dbmod. The advice, feedback and encouragement that I receive here is invaluable. However, the bottom line is that this is my marriage and my life. I will follow advice at times, but at other times, I will follow my instinct.
Denver
Denver,
Maybe I missed the update...IDK...
How many hands do you have?
When are you going to stop trying to reason everything and just start accepting what is?
Listen, I get it...
Mutual friends could tell you that I think things to DEATH, bring them back to life, and think them to DEATH again before I can decide that I am making myself CRAZY and just decide to accept...
But they won't so I will...
Yes you should be trying to understand HER perspective, because YOUR way and thoughts aren't the ONLY way...
You made assumptions about the direction based on minimal words and movements from your W (which were positive) but I do believe I recall people warning you that she hadn't committed...
I believe that I recall people telling you to take it slowly...
To be cautiously optimistic...
That you might NOT be getting the ENTIRE truth...
And you wanted to believe your W, you chose to believe your W...
I can't, I doubt anyone can, fault you for that...
However, it was a mistake...
To put all of the apples back in the cart before it was time...
That has led you to feeling like you are at square one again...
You are not...
My honest opinion, you are still looking at her too much...
Waiting for HER to decide what you should do...
Playing this like a chess game, move, counter move...
This isn't a chess game, this is your life...
Do you love this woman?
Do you want to fight for this?
Even if that means doing NOTHING but giving her time to decide what she wants to do, living as a MARRIED man, even if she is living as a SINGLE woman, (you don't have to have contact and whatnot with her while she is doing this), allowing yourself to feel things and heal without having every single feeling making you feel like you need to make some sort of life altering decision?
You NEED to answer those questions....for you, not for me, and honestly, I don't really want to see a "response post" about this...
Stop being a lawyer and start being a man Denver...
You can do this if you want to...
That is it without the update...
Appreciate it as always Cat. No 'response post', but you have pointed out some questions that I do need to answer for myself.
Denver
Cat, that was excellent advice.
Denver, I hope your hanging in there.....
I will follow advice at times, but at other times, I will follow my instinct.
Proceed with caution on the instinct thing. 90%(total guess
) of the people that followed that fickle b!tch wound up here. LOL
Rules change as the situation evolves and advice can become overwhelming. Take a break from the boards if you have to, You can process all the advice and compare it to the DR/DB way and form your own direction.
I wouldn't trust your "instinct" until you have control over your emotions and decision making skills.
Your a Lawyer, I know your smart, but the "forest" of your own reality can be completely blind; and the path clearly visible to others.
the "forest" of your own reality can be completely blind; and the path clearly visible to others.
This is a GREAT point.
The emotions related to our own sitchs make it much harder to give ourselves the advice we would give others.
Stepping back an looking at things clearly is needed to make sound decisions.
Easier said than done.
I will follow advice at times, but at other times, I will follow my instinct.
Proceed with caution on the instinct thing. 90%(total guess
) of the people that followed that fickle b!tch wound up here. LOL
Rules change as the situation evolves and advice can become overwhelming. Take a break from the boards if you have to, You can process all the advice and compare it to the DR/DB way and form your own direction.
I wouldn't trust your "instinct" until you have control over your emotions and decision making skills.
Your a Lawyer, I know your smart, but the "forest" of your own reality can be completely blind; and the path clearly visible to others.
Starsky
I agree Starsky and Faith. But even though there are similarities and patterns that can be assigned to these marital situations, you can't throw out what you know about your specific WAS or specific situation altogether. That's all that I'm saying.
Denver
P.S. I still haven't updated about what happened on Friday. My laptop hardrive crashed, so had to set up my desktop. Not as much access though.
"She ain't done.
Are you?
Denver been worried about you while there was silence here for about a week.
Go back and read what was posted to you before you took sabatical.
What sparked this? What MADE you go by her house?
Now?
You set a boundary. Don't be a paper tiger. Enforce it the same way you lived your promise to be patient and give her space and live your life.
It is easier to enforce than to embrace.
Easier to run than admit your own shortcomings.
What promises did you make to yourself here?
F@ck your W right now.
This has always been YOUR journey. YOUR changes.
YOU man. You let it be about her and her choices again. Couldn't let go of that? We have all been there.
Dust yourself off.
YOUR self respect did not spring from confronting a f@cking coward on a toilet.
Remember THAT guy. Cause he is going to run your life.
And ruin your life.
IF you let someone elses actions make YOUR choices for you.
What does Denver do from here?
There is a man at the counter selling one way tickets to Bitterville. There is a seat with your name on it and in it you will find anger, denial, regret, self punishment, self loathing...
and three people in this f@cked up world that deserve better.
Character is not what you can convince her to believe about you Denver.
It is who you are when the lights go out at night and there is no one there but you."
'
Thanks Gritter. I am working through my emotions now. What happened on Tuesday had to happen, and I believe that it happened for a reason. But I am angry and I am hurt. I have been working on trying to center myself again.
"It is who you are when the lights go out at night and there is no one there but you."
This? I can't see it until I get myself centered.
Thanks Gritter.
Denver
Holy cow I sure missed a lot! I'm sorry, Denver.
Reading the text conversations between you and your W after catching OM last week... I related to her so much in what she said about being ignored and feeling unloved. I'm there now quite often in my M. You and my H are so much alike. Or rather, the man you were and my H are so much alike.
But I also relate to you and where you are at... I was there in my first marriage. 10 years of being a horrible wife and selfish and not paying much attention to the XH and then he left and I woke up. And he refused to believe my changes... and I can't blame him. He sent me e-mails much like the texts your W sent you. His response to me when I found out about OW was the same response she gave you. He strung me along for literally 2 years and I tried and I tried and I tried. To the point that people here on this board were telling me to give up already and move on. But here's the difference... it's only been months for you. MONTHS. How you handle this will make all the difference in the world. Whatever you do, don't be the old you.
If it's any consolation at all... the changes I made in myself were permanent. In my R's after my XW I've given 150%. I'm not perfect but I give it my all. My H gets all of me, all the me my XH never got. My point is... whether or not your W believes the changes are permanent really isn't what's most important. It's whether you make them permanent for you and how it changes your life in whatever R you have next. So right now karma is kicking us both in the a$$ for past mistakes... but it will get better. With our spouses or someone new... someday we will have a healthy, loving, kind, partnership of a marriage were both people give more than they take and both put each other first. That's the hope to focus on, that's the person to be. I hope your W sees that.
Hugs and prayers to you friend.
Holy cow I sure missed a lot! I'm sorry, Denver.
Reading the text conversations between you and your W after catching OM last week... I related to her so much in what she said about being ignored and feeling unloved. I'm there now quite often in my M. You and my H are so much alike. Or rather, the man you were and my H are so much alike.
Thanks Hope. I am sorry to hear that you can currently relate to what my W said about me in those text messages. I really hope that things get better for you. Ultimately though, what you said about our changes IS what is important. Hang in there.
BITS
Denver
You know Denver, I like you., but F'n A can you PLEASE POST your update. Just askin
I got a BB bat waiting
J/K
LOL..duck /denver.....
P.S. to answer your question..........( in regards to you wife saying that she had almost made a deceison in regards to your marriage )You know your wife alot better than I do.......and I think now U were right......It was all BS to make you feel bad.
Do we have a spell check in this forum?????? lol
We are waiting Denver...But I dont have a bat
Take care
Sunny
.
You know Denver, I like you., but F'n A can you PLEASE POST your update. Just askin
I got a BB bat waiting
J/K
Hilarious Faith! I'm working on it. I have trouble recalling face to face conversations like the one that I had with W on Friday. I actually have the rough draft almost ready!
Denver
LOL..duck /denver.....
P.S. to answer your question..........( in regards to you wife saying that she had almost made a deceison in regards to your marriage )You know your wife alot better than I do.......and I think now U were right......It was all BS to make you feel bad.
.
Actually Sunny ... I think that you were dead on about this. W mentioned that again during our conversation on Friday night ... and then told me what that decision was...
Denver
hello???
I have stuff to do- but am here waiting on YOU Denver...what's her frickin' decision???
I can't move on with MY LIFE B/C OF YOU...SEE? I can't even DB this!!!...
in case you didn't catch that...
25...you could write on my thread while you wait for Denver :p
I know we have not officially met but I am hanging on by a thread because I have followed your story for two months before getting the courage to post! What happened?
Shannon
Dammit Denver - post the update!
I, too, am waiting impatiently. Just to throw a little gasoline on the fire
You know Denver, I like you., but F'n A can you PLEASE POST your update. Just askin
I got a BB bat waiting
J/K
Hilarious Faith! I'm working on it. I have trouble recalling face to face conversations like the one that I had with W on Friday. I actually have the rough draft almost ready!
Denver
Good lord, if that's not proof that these convos are
TOO DANGED LONG, then I don't know what is!!
Starsky
Ya'll need to detach
good one TG...
Okay I'm taking charge of my life, shutting the door and moving on....
[i]but not locking the door.
[/i]
Or act as if he already posted it and just start replying.
Ya'll need to detach
yes, "y'all" do
very funny, true (and true)
Or act as if he already posted it and just start replying.
good one
Okay. So... THAT'S EXCELLENT NEWS DENVER...good for you. Way to go!
Ya'll need to detach
LOL yep!
But then what? OMG We need to get a life too?!!!!
Oh the pressure.
UPDATE...
So, when I last updated, my W had gone onto our online cell phone account and disabled my cell phone. Our 'family' plan is in her name, so she has control over it, but payments come out of my credit card.
So a couple of things that happened before she did this.
1) We had gone 3 days without any contact at all ... since the OM on toilet event.
2) She posted on FB (Friday afternoon at lunch) "Almost have my classroom packed up. Then the house. Fun! I love moving. Ugg!" Not sure if this meant anything whatsoever, but it is weird for her to post on FB much at all, and then to post that about packing up her house... on her lunch? I don't know. Maybe in my head, but seemed meant for me.
3) Posted again on FB (Friday afternoon) ... posted her horoscope (very strange for W do this and for some reason it seemed important):
"Take a step back, or at least closer to home. Your energy isn't quite right for taking bold action, but if you regroup and recharge for a couple of days, you should be back in fighting shape."
4) Shortly after that post, she called my cell phone 8 times. I did not answer.
On the last call, she left me the following voice mail:
"Hi. Since you are acting like you are 5 and you are avoiding my phone calls or possibly forgot how to use your cell phone. I'm giong to go ahead and disable your cell phone line so that your phone is no longer working. If you'd like to reach me YOU KNOW HOW TO FIND ME since you stalk me. Or you can give me a call before I disable your phone and you don't have any use of it anyway. Cause that's what I'm going to do. I'm the one that has permission to make changes on our cell phone and if you're going to avoid me and ignore me when I need information on our taxes and information of that sort then I will make your life miserable in the meantime. So hopefully you will get in touch with me and you won't lose any of your business calls and won't miss your phone too much. Thank you . Goodbye."
She was very much a b!tch in that message. I didn't get it until I received an email a bit later telling me that my cell phone was disabled.
I thought about what to do, posted here, talked to a few other friends about it, and checked into getting a new cell phone. Ultimately, I decided to call W about it from my home line.
I called W but she did not answer. I left her a very calm message telling her that I needed to talk to her about my cell phone, that I had emailed her the tax info, that I hoped that she received it, and that she had received a certified letter in the mail which I had put in our mailbox.
She did not call me back.
I got ready to go out to meet some buddies. I decided to drop by her house to talk to W if she was home. Her VM had told me 'you know where to find me', so I took that as an invitation.
I've tried to remember as much of the following 2 hours conversation with W as I can. I'm not as good as some (2Step shoutout) at remembering these conversations verbatim. I've quoted the things that I remember very clearly and summarized other parts.
I arrived and rang the doorbell. W answered the door. I told her that we needed to talk about my cell phone. That I needed her to reactivate it. She told me "since you decided to act like a 5 year old by not answering my calls when I needed to talk to you about taxes and things that I need, I decided to act like a 5 year old too." She was not yelling, but had a firm and p!ssed off tone. I was not surprised.
I told W that I had emailed her the tax documents and thought that I had taken care of what she needed. She told me that she needed other things that she had never mentioned in any of her text or voice messages. I told her that I would be happy to get those things for her, but I needed my cell phone reactivated.
I then told her, 'I don't want to talk to you right now. That is why I'm not answering your calls or texts. I need some space."
W: "I figured that. I was just waiting to be served with divorce papers in the middle teaching one of my classes. I wouldn't put it past you."
Me: "Well, I don't know about that. I just don't want to talk to you right now."
I said, 'I don't think that I was very clear the other day, so I want to make it very clear now. I don't want to be a part of your life as long as OM, or any OMs, are in your life.... I want no part of it.'
W said, 'well, I want to see D while she is here in July.' (My D will be visiting me for the month of July)
I said, 'I don't know about that.'
W: 'That's bullsh!t. I let you continue to see SS all through this.'
ME: 'Well, I'm much closer to SS than you are to D.'
W: 'That's not true. In fact, she spends more time with me when she is here than with you.'
I did not respond.
W had to go inside the house to do something with the dinner that she was making for SS.
She came back out. SS came out with her. He gave me a big hug and told me that he wanted to show me something. He went back inside and then came back with some pictures that he had drawn. He showed me the pictures and then told me goodbye.
------------ The convo resumed
W then said, "Well, like I said the other day, I had made a decision about my life before what happened on Tuesday. I had already decided that I was going to spend June by myself. Without you, SS, or OM. I thought that I would spend a lot of July with you and your D while she's here visiting. And then see what happens."
W then said, "OM knew that. And he knew that I was leaning towards working on us after that."
W: "but that was before you had to come over here and act like such a typical man... a typical guy."
Me: "Well I am a man W. And most people would have done the exact same thing as me. I think that if you think about it, you would realize that you would have done the same thing."
Me: "Besides, I think that I handled it pretty well considering. Aren't you at all surprised about how calmly I dealt with it."
W: "No. I think that you had your law license to protect. I think that's why you didn't do anything else."
Me: "Well, I'm sure that's part of it. But not all. I've worked really hard to learn how to deal with conflict in a calmer way W."
I then reiterated that I did not want to be a part of her life as long as OM was part of it.
W: "Well, I'm not going to be seeing OM anymore"
Me - "Why now W"
W: "Bc I don't want what happened the other day in my life. I don't want SS to have to deal with this anymore. It's not good for him. Did you even think about him before you did what you did?"
W: "And I had already decided that before what happened."
Me: "You are the one that has put SS in this position W."
W: "I need some time to just be by myself to figure out what I want for my life."
W: "I don't have hundreds of people supporting me like you do!" (W was referring to all of you here on this board and my BITS on alt).
Me: "I know."
----- (gap bc I don't remember how the conversation transitioned)
W: "I didn't have sex with OM that night. We've only been really talking again for the past 2 weeks"
Me: "Ok. Have you had sex with him in the past 2 weeks?"
W: Silence... "yes."
Me (with face in my hands): "Well, that's great then that you didn't this particular night W."
Me: "I don't know if I can forgive you for this."
W (angry for first time) "I don't give a sh!t if YOU can forgive me. I don't need your forgiveness."
W: "You want to talk about adultery or being unfaithful... you were unfaithful to me long before I EVER did anything. Go look at your bible and see if you think that looking at porn and going to strip clubs is being unfaithful!"
Me: "I know. You are right about that. I've apologized a billion times for that. I know that it was wrong of me to do those things."
Pause in convo
Me: "Do you know how much it hurts me to hear this?"
W: "I guess that I can see why it would hurt you. But I don't really understand it. You never wanted me when we were together. We went months without having sex before I left. You slept on the couch for months. Our entire R was like that. Do you remember when I was close with C (another friend of her's)?"
Me: "Yes. Like 5 years ago."
W: "Yeah, 4 or 5 years ago. He and I used to talk about how you and I didn't have sex that often. He didn't understand it at all."
Me: "I think that we went in spurts W."
W: "No. You didn't want me Denver. And now that someone else does, you all of a sudden decide that you do."
Me: "I know W. I know that we had issues. I also now know a lot of what caused some of those problems."
It was somewhere in the above portion our our convo that W mentioned something that I posed on FB a week or so ago.
W: It's like that post of your's on FB
Me: Which one?
W: The one about the consequences of your choices.
This was the post (via Truegritter):
"You always experience the consequences of your acts.
If your acts are right, you'll get good consequences.
If not, you will suffer for it.
Right or wrong it is in your hands.
But at the end, all the acts sum up as your life"
------ GAP in convo ... again don't remember transition.
W: "Besides, it isn't about the sex for women Denver. You know that."
Me: "I know. So what? Are you saying that you love OM?"
W: "I don't love him."
W: "I have a weakness for OM. He makes me feel good about myself. He was really good to us (W and SS) when things were bad."
W: "He makes me feel that I am out of his league, that he is lucky to be with me. You always made me feel that you were out of my league and that I was lucky to be with you. It is nice to be on the other side Denver."
W: "We have fun together. He reminds me that I can have fun, that I can be loved. That there is life without you."
W: "Had I been stronger, I would never have gotten involved with him. But I wasn't."
W: "I have to be the one to end it. He won't. I'm not saying he isn't respecting my wishes. He is. But I have to be the one to end it."
W: "I don't want to hurt OM but he's going to continue to get hurt."
Me: "Yeah. I'm not too concerned about you ending up with OM. You seem to agree?"
W: "It is highly unlikely that I would end up with OM."
W: "Why do you say that it is highly unlikely that I'd end up with him?"
Me: "Bc you are are SO much better than that W. So much better than him."
W: "Why? Bc he doesn't make any money?"
Me: "Well, yeah. That, and the fact that he has no morals whatsoever. I mean, who would allow themselves to get involved with a married woman?"
W: "You would do the same thing... if you were in his position and met a woman who you thought that you really liked... who was special."
Me: "NO. I WOULDN'T."
Me: "And after seeing how he was when I found him sitting on your toilet ... well..."
W (with a bit of laughter): "You're the one that has to live with that image for the rest of your life. Not me."
Pause in convo.
Me: "You know W, I f'ing hate the guy..."
W (interrupting me): "Well I didn't expect that you were going to like him."
Me: "No, I know. I hate the guy. But I am grateful for him. He has reminded me of how you deserve to be treated." (I don't entirely believe that I feel this way right now, but can see myself coming to be grateful someday - nickel to Jack ... got this from one of his posts on my thread a while back)
W didn't respond to this. I think that she was surprised that I had it in me to say something like that.
--------- GAP (again don't remember transition)
somewhere around here my cell phone rang.
Me: "did you reactivate my cell phone?"
W: "Yes."
(she must have done it when she went into the house earlier)
The convo resumed.
W: "I don't trust you Denver. You have always had wondering eyes."
W: "You have tons of women on FB who I have no clue as to who they are."
Me: "I told you that I would go through every single friend of mine on FB and answer any question that you have and remove anyone who makes you uncomfortable."
W: "Have you done that? No."
Me: "No, I haven't. But I told you that we could sit down and go through it. We haven't done that."
Me: "And some of them are friends of mine that are going through similar things that I am going through now with you."
W: "Are those the women that I see you posting to now?"
Me: "Yes, they are. They are friends. They are not all women. And we are all helping each other through this. They encourage me and support me, but they also tell me when I am wrong and tell me things about how I treated you poorly."
Pause in convo
W: "You have always had to have ex-girlfriends remain in your life."
Me: "I know. Again, I've apologized for how I handled that. I don't even have contact with M at all and with C only when I see her in court... which is very rarely."
I AGAIN validated W's feelings on all of this, but don't remember exactly what I said.
Me: "Well, I think that we now have trust issues on both sides now."
W: "Well, maybe that's a good thing!"
------ GAP in convo... not sure about transition
W went into a lot of the stuff that she has repeated to me, and I have posted about, multiple times. Complaints about me that are mostly true... those that I have apologized for a million times.
W: "I think about those things and then I think that if I come back to you, it will just be a matter of time before they are happening again... before you are sleeping on the couch again."
Me: "Those things won't happen again W. I've learned so much since you left. And I was depressed W."
Then W started talking as if she IS coming back eventually...
W: "I'm not going to be a housewife Denver."
Me: "I don't want you to be a housewife W. I never did. I know how you perceived that I did. I just don't know how we got to that point."
W: "You did before I left."
Me: "No. I never did. That's not what I wanted from you."
Me: "I've never want to stifle or hold you back W. I've always wanted you to have your friends. To go out and have your girl nights. I've always tried to support your music. Even at the end, I never wanted that and don't feel that I did."
W: "And you know that I am not the same as I was before I left. How are you going to deal with that?"
Me: "Well, I don't want things to be the same."
Pause in convo
Me: "I just want us to start treating each other well. To start loving each other like we should. I don't know W."
W: "And the first time that we fight, I know that you're going to bring all of this up."
Me: "What?"
W: "The first time that you get mad, you're going to tell me 'at least I didn't sleep with anyone else' or something."
Me: "NO. I won't. I know better. I've had it hammered into me that I can't do that. That it wouldn't be fair to you OR me to do that. Besides, this is something that, once it is dealt with, has to go into a locked box and put someplace far back in my mind. That's something that I know can't happen W."
------- GAP in convo
We talked about W moving. She told me that she needs to find a place and move by June 22nd bc she is going to southern Colorado to visit a friend for a few days and then to Philadelphia to visit another friend.
I asked her where she was going to move. She said that she didn't know yet. That it would probably be an apartment bc she can't find a house that she can afford. That it might be close to the school that she teaches at so that she can get SS into that school.
Me: "so you're going to sign a lease?"
W: "Well, yeah. I don't know of any places that won't make me sign a lease."
Me (shaking my head): "I hate to see you have to sign a lease and waste more money"
W: "Denver, It wouldn't be right for me to move back into that (our) house right now."
Me: "I know. But what about just staying here (the house that she's in now)?
W: "I can't afford it. It is destroying me financially."
Me: "I know."
W: "How about you move someplace else for a while and let me move back to the house?"
Me (chuckling quietly): "I don't think so W."
-------- GAP in convo
I told W that I needed to go bc I was suppose to meet some friends out.
W: "You sure do go out a lot since I left."
Me: "What do you expect me to do, sit at home and cry?"
W: "No. I don't expect that."
(as all of you know, I actually have sat at home and cried for much of the past 6 months... at least W apparently doesn't believe that I have! LOL)
Me: "Well, I'm going to go."
W: "Okay. So I'm just going to take some time for myself in June. Then we'll talk?"
Me: "Okay. That's fine. But I just want to say it again W, I do not want to be a part of this if OM is in your life. I have to say that again."
W: "I have no intention on that (renewing dating OM). I will let you know if that changes."
Me: "Okay."
-------
I got up (we had been sitting on her front porch) and began to walk towards the steps. W got up too.
It seems that she came closer and was expecting a hug, but I could be wrong.
I didn't move close or in to hug her. I continued on and walked to my car. I didn't look back or wave to her.
--------
I have been completely dark with W for 4 days now. SS called me today to see if he can see me before he travels to California to visit his dad in a couple of weeks.
W has been posting daily on FB. I'm not sure if it means anything, but the posts are about what she is doing... almost like she's trying to tell me 'hey this is what I am doing. I'm not with OM.'
I don't know. Probably just me making that up.
Today she posted that she was done with school for the summer and 'now time for some me time!'
---------
I am not 100% convinced that I still want to reconcile my M.
The fact that she resumed her A with OM has been a blow to what I have worked for here for 6+ months now.
I do still love my W... but I'm just not sure that I can forgive her for this.
And there is a part of me that wonders if I did continue to fight, would it be just to win... like my W says, I don't like to lose. It is something that I will continue to think about for the next 3+ weeks.
I do feel that what happened last Tuesday (OM on toilet event) is something that had to happen. I still don't regret having done what I did in the slightest.
I feel that I have evened the footing between W and I ... that I have gained the high ground so to speak. That I don't need to let W treat me like sh!t just bc I f'd up so badly in our M.
I feel that I will be okay if W chooses not to work on M (assuming that I decide that is still what I want). That I will be able to walk away knowing that I tried to fix the things that I screwed up so badly before.
I feel stronger than I have at any other point during this ordeal.
Thanks everyone for your support, your time in reading all of this (I know that it's like an episode of Jerry Springer)... and for your interest in my life.
I really do hope to pay it forward someday when I am in a better place.
Denver
I see 2 dynamics going on: first there is the no holds barred fighting, and then there is the talking. The fighting is a bad sign. It is a power struggle. Who controls the relationship? How can I get control of the relationship? A tug of war that goes on between you.
But when you talk, there is some give and take. Not enough. And then you go back to your separate corners and you re-group for the next hard tug of war pull. She says you have other people pulling on your side. You see OM pulling on her side. This will get you nowhere.
I'm glad you walked away without the hug. What you need, if you want to save this marriage, is to get her to agree to go to the counseling and really try, or go to Retrouvaille. Because, just as you needed a big personality adjustment, she needs one too.
Marriage should be a partnership, not a power struggle. Until both spouses understand how to work together, in situations like yours, the two of you will just continue to pull apart.
I see 2 dynamics going on: first there is the no holds barred fighting, and then there is the talking. The fighting is a bad sign. It is a power struggle. Who controls the relationship? How can I get control of the relationship? A tug of war that goes on between you.
But when you talk, there is some give and take. Not enough. And then you go back to your separate corners and you re-group for the next hard tug of war pull. She says you have other people pulling on your side. You see OM pulling on her side. This will get you nowhere.
I'm glad you walked away without the hug. What you need, if you want to save this marriage, is to get her to agree to go to the counseling and really try, or go to Retrouvaille. Because, just as you needed a big personality adjustment, she needs one too.
Marriage should be a partnership, not a power struggle. Until both spouses understand how to work together, in situations like yours, the two of you will just continue to pull apart.
I think that you are absolutely right Lotus. This is all something that I feel that I have learned over the past 6 months. W has not been 'working' like I have during this time. Will she ever? I don't know.
The 'no holds' fighting? Something that we BOTH used to do... I'm not sure how it reads in my posts, but I really haven't engaged in that. I can't remember the last time that I raised my voice to W or used an insult. These were definitely methods of arguing that I used to use all of the time... In fact, W never did up until one day about 4 years ago when she decided to fight fire with fire. She continues to try and fight with me in that fashion.
Retrouvaille is something that I ABSOLUTELY want to do if we try to reconcile. Especially now. I think that it would be good for both W and I. She expressed a willingness to go back in March... I think that she will be willing to do it if she decides this is what she wants. Counseling will also be a must. No questions.
Denver
Just f*cking WOW!
Great interaction!
Believe it or not, I respect your W on this. Even with the "affair". (I hate saying that)
Man, she busted you out. She told her feelings. You stated your boundaries. What are you willing to do now? It's your choice.
She's obviously not indifferent towards you.I don't know who you truly are, but she really painted a picture. No she shouldn't have had the affair but at the same time the honesty and where you can be different is a chance in a lifetime.
Personally, I can't give any advice other than Trusting and verifying your own boundary. Don't hold this over her. You had an opportunity to really realize whats important in your life...you chose to fight for her. You decided to change yourself. Can't you "forgive" her if you have "forgiven" yourself. Isn't this the whole purpose as to why you are here? I mean, you have the reality and knowledge of the whole sitch. Will she test you? yeah, but she gave you a 5 mile head start.
Does it mean you have saved your marriage, but you have some deep thinking to do. AND a higher power needs to step in on this one. Thanks for your update and I seriously look forward to your decision. It really comes down to you now.
I'll let a higher power take over on this.
I'm pondering Denver...need more time to know what I think about all this but it's a good (albeit frightening) move for sure.
I agree fully with trying to go to Retrovaille (we did it after a year of piecing and it actually did more good than I expected. A break through I didn't expect from h happened and that was a big deal for us. Yes, I highly recommend it if she's up for it)
You have identified at least 2 things of great importance.
1) You don't know if you can forgive her although you do know if you reconcile, it has to be dropped for good... That's no small feat.
It means letting go of the past, and working "from this day forward"...and if you cannot do it, then she's right. You'll throw it in her face when you fight or hold it over her head in some way, OR she'll think you will...which is just as destructive.
2) The other thing is you're not sure you want to be with her anyhow. You rightly and honestly say it might just be about winning. Wow, good insight.
I sort of identify in that at one point I had to ask myself if the reason I wanted things to work with my h were simply b/c I had spent so much time trying/DBing...and I wondered about "bad money going after good", in terms of my life's energy. FWIW, I'm very glad we stayed together.
Your w has so much anger still, that I worry if you two reconcile too soon, or don't get the tools you clearly need, it won't work.
That's all I have for now. Thanks for letting us know the situation.
I'm glad she wants to see your D.
1) You don't know if you can forgive her although you do know if you reconcile, it has to be dropped for good... That's no small feat.
It means letting go of the past, and working "from this day forward"...and if you cannot do it, then she's right. You'll throw it in her face when you fight or hold it over her head in some way, OR she'll think you will...which is just as destructive.
I agree. This is the tough one.
Personally at this time...I would re-read DR AGAIN. Especially the infidelity part. You know what you want and she knows what she wants. Get a DB coach too...what the hell do you have to lose?
Want to be married? To her? Do everything possible to make the right choice. Live life with no regret. Whatever it takes
I was fully expecting a train wreck, but it looks like you were able to avert that. Good job!
You've already got tons of good advice, but there's one thing that struck me...
And there is a part of me that wonders if I did continue to fight, would it be just to win...
...
I feel that I have evened the footing between W and I ... that I have gained the high ground so to speak.
This ^^^ attitude may doom your efforts if you are not careful. This is something I used to see in myself, having to take the 'high ground'. It leads to a feeling of superiority and my W could sense that in me.
We have to remember that M is teamwork, not competition. In competitions, there are winners and losers; there is no place for winners and losers in an R.
I can understand your hesitance right now, your feelings that this may be a deal breaker and questioning your own commitment. It might help to read through Jack Three Beans old posts. I did a few days ago and *wow*, did he ever go through h3ll and back for his W.
You might also want to check out some books on A's. Not Just Friends is excellent, and After the Affair was also very good.
BTW, you're already paying it forward by being here and supporting us. Thanks!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What LP said Denver, I'm so glad that he picked up on that subject of Competition....and I think he hit square on.
Marriage is a partnership.......your wife feeling inferior...and superior over the OM tells alot.
I think you've made alot of headway with your stich, and your both talking.......( brave of you )
But remember Actions speak louder than words, I still see her very weary of returning to the OLD Denver, and honestly I don't blame her.
Just my 2 cents
Wishing U the best...Sunny
The fact that she resumed her A with OM has been a blow to what I have worked for here for 6+ months now.
So her choices have blown all YOUR work?
Denver I have said this for a while for you.
You have always been way too focused on your W.
And the outcome. Which was winning?
Your M is over if you say it is and not becuase of any other reason.
I posted to you that OM sitting on the toilet can run your life and then ruin your life.
It is up to you.
What do you really want?
You have read my thread I know. There is a time when we come though this and we feel less weak, and then stronger and then...
Strong enough.
That is the biggest temptation when you feel you have healed from the body blows.
That is not the end game Denver.
There is more here for you IMO.
The best part of this journey.
BUT also the hardest.
It means letting go of old ways of thinking that are comfortable but reinforce wrong choices for you.
Your best thinking got you both here.
Time for something different?
The ONLY question for you right now is
WHAT DO YOU WANT?
Then don't let anyone take it from you.
P.S. the other women on FB? It's called life boating Denver. You know when the ship is taking on water and instead of helping bail it out you hop on to a life boat and watch and see what happens. Isn't your W doing the same?
My advice? Deactivate your account. That way you want have to be mind reading W's posts and you won't have the OW for you or your W to worry about.
And it will send her a very strong message.
That is of course if you decide you want to save your M.
You have received some excellent advice here Denver. One thing that struck me is when your wife said that you slept on the couch for a long time and didnt want sex from her. I dont know the dynamics behind that but I can see why she would feel wanted by the OM. And that she felt that he needs her like you never did.
My W said the exact thing to me although the sex thing was different. I wanted her 3x's per week minimum and she wasnt into it. But I digress.
IMO, the OM was merely a symptom and became a "fix " for her, very very much like a drug. You never gave her that feeling of being worthy and the OM put her up high on a pedistal and made her feel like a Queen. Again, my sitch mirrors yours as the OM in my W's life does EVERYTHING for her and she feels superior to him. She admitted that to me once in a moment of weakness.
So again, IMO, and I hate to say this Denver cause I have grown to like you alot; you kinda made your bed in this marriage and drove her away. Doesnt excuse the affair but it is understandable to some degree.
As for her going back to him, Its like trying to kick that drug. You know its bad for you but it makes you feel good for the time being. I cant guarantee you this , but Ill bet she felt like crap almost everytime after she had relations with him.
She was fighting an internal battle like many junkies do, but she seems to be on the right track now.
As for you and forgiveness. What does it matter that she had sex with him a few more times? She wasnt really with you yet. Forgive her for real and IF this is what you REALLY want because you love her and NOT because its about WINNING, then a few more romps in the hay mean NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING.
NEVER bring it up again, almost like you are just meeting her for the first time and she had relationships before you met her. I think that is the MINDSET that you must have to navigate this.
25 is right, IF you EVER bring it up again, then you are verifying her worst fears that you will never be free of this.
YOU are in a great spot now DENVER, if you love her, give her space and she will come back. I feel it.
9
1) You don't know if you can forgive her although you do know if you reconcile, it has to be dropped for good... That's no small feat.
It means letting go of the past, and working "from this day forward"...and if you cannot do it, then she's right. You'll throw it in her face when you fight or hold it over her head in some way, OR she'll think you will...which is just as destructive.
Here is where I see cause for concern. I mean Denver made a goal/vow to not bring up OM to himself and to the board. What did do? Keep bringing up OM.
I don't want to be a buzzkill, but just telling her that he won't bring up OM in a fight in the future is meaningless to her. I'd start showing her NOW. No OM talk ever.
You aren't talking to a jury, you can't talk your way into making her believe.
But more to the point. You have to forgive her for YOURSELF. Because regardless of whether you want the M, if you don't deal with it - other than anger- it will follow you around the rest of your life. Without forgiveness you will never let it go.
Denver - All I have to say is that I am a little jealous. I would love to have STBX be that open with me instead of her usual half truths and crap. I don't know where you should or will go from here, but that conversation is something many of us will never have. So...be damn proud of yourself.
But more to the point. You have to forgive her for YOURSELF. Because regardless of whether you want the M, if you don't deal with it - other than anger- it will follow you around the rest of your life. Without forgiveness you will never let it go.
Out of everything going on, ^^^ this is really #1.
And 9's post above is GREAT.
Don't put the cart in front of the horse.
Forgiveness first, regardless of what you decide for your M.
UPDATE...
So, when I last updated, my W had gone onto our online cell phone account and disabled my cell phone. Our 'family' plan is in her name, so she has control over it, but payments come out of my credit card.
So a couple of things that happened before she did this.
1) We had gone 3 days without any contact at all ... since the OM on toilet event.
2) She posted on FB (Friday afternoon at lunch) "Almost have my classroom packed up. Then the house. Fun! I love moving. Ugg!" Not sure if this meant anything whatsoever, but it is weird for her to post on FB much at all, and then to post that about packing up her house... on her lunch? I don't know. Maybe in my head, but seemed meant for me.
3) Posted again on FB (Friday afternoon) ... posted her horoscope (very strange for W do this and for some reason it seemed important):
"Take a step back, or at least closer to home. Your energy isn't quite right for taking bold action, but if you regroup and recharge for a couple of days, you should be back in fighting shape."
4) Shortly after that post, she called my cell phone 8 times. I did not answer.
On the last call, she left me the following voice mail:
"Hi. Since you are acting like you are 5 and you are avoiding my phone calls or possibly forgot how to use your cell phone. I'm giong to go ahead and disable your cell phone line so that your phone is no longer working. If you'd like to reach me YOU KNOW HOW TO FIND ME since you stalk me. Or you can give me a call before I disable your phone and you don't have any use of it anyway. Cause that's what I'm going to do. I'm the one that has permission to make changes on our cell phone and if you're going to avoid me and ignore me when I need information on our taxes and information of that sort then I will make your life miserable in the meantime. So hopefully you will get in touch with me and you won't lose any of your business calls and won't miss your phone too much. Thank you . Goodbye."
She was very much a b!tch in that message. I didn't get it until I received an email a bit later telling me that my cell phone was disabled.
I thought about what to do, posted here, talked to a few other friends about it, and checked into getting a new cell phone. Ultimately, I decided to call W about it from my home line.
I called W but she did not answer. I left her a very calm message telling her that I needed to talk to her about my cell phone, that I had emailed her the tax info, that I hoped that she received it, and that she had received a certified letter in the mail which I had put in our mailbox.
She did not call me back.
I got ready to go out to meet some buddies. I decided to drop by her house to talk to W if she was home. Her VM had told me 'you know where to find me', so I took that as an invitation.
I've tried to remember as much of the following 2 hours conversation with W as I can. I'm not as good as some (2Step shoutout) at remembering these conversations verbatim. I've quoted the things that I remember very clearly and summarized other parts.
I arrived and rang the doorbell. W answered the door. I told her that we needed to talk about my cell phone. That I needed her to reactivate it. She told me "since you decided to act like a 5 year old by not answering my calls when I needed to talk to you about taxes and things that I need, I decided to act like a 5 year old too." She was not yelling, but had a firm and p!ssed off tone. I was not surprised.
I told W that I had emailed her the tax documents and thought that I had taken care of what she needed. She told me that she needed other things that she had never mentioned in any of her text or voice messages. I told her that I would be happy to get those things for her, but I needed my cell phone reactivated.
I then told her, 'I don't want to talk to you right now. That is why I'm not answering your calls or texts. I need some space."
W: "I figured that. I was just waiting to be served with divorce papers in the middle teaching one of my classes. I wouldn't put it past you."
Me: "Well, I don't know about that. I just don't want to talk to you right now."
I said, 'I don't think that I was very clear the other day, so I want to make it very clear now. I don't want to be a part of your life as long as OM, or any OMs, are in your life.... I want no part of it.'
W said, 'well, I want to see D while she is here in July.' (My D will be visiting me for the month of July)
I said, 'I don't know about that.'
W: 'That's bullsh!t. I let you continue to see SS all through this.'
ME: 'Well, I'm much closer to SS than you are to D.'
W: 'That's not true. In fact, she spends more time with me when she is here than with you.'
I did not respond.
W had to go inside the house to do something with the dinner that she was making for SS.
She came back out. SS came out with her. He gave me a big hug and told me that he wanted to show me something. He went back inside and then came back with some pictures that he had drawn. He showed me the pictures and then told me goodbye.
------------ The convo resumed
W then said, "Well, like I said the other day, I had made a decision about my life before what happened on Tuesday. I had already decided that I was going to spend June by myself. Without you, SS, or OM. I thought that I would spend a lot of July with you and your D while she's here visiting. And then see what happens."
W then said, "OM knew that. And he knew that I was leaning towards working on us after that."
W: "but that was before you had to come over here and act like such a typical man... a typical guy."
Me: "Well I am a man W. And most people would have done the exact same thing as me. I think that if you think about it, you would realize that you would have done the same thing."
Me: "Besides, I think that I handled it pretty well considering. Aren't you at all surprised about how calmly I dealt with it."
W: "No. I think that you had your law license to protect. I think that's why you didn't do anything else."
Me: "Well, I'm sure that's part of it. But not all. I've worked really hard to learn how to deal with conflict in a calmer way W."
I then reiterated that I did not want to be a part of her life as long as OM was part of it.
W: "Well, I'm not going to be seeing OM anymore"
Me - "Why now W"
W: "Bc I don't want what happened the other day in my life. I don't want SS to have to deal with this anymore. It's not good for him. Did you even think about him before you did what you did?"
W: "And I had already decided that before what happened."
Me: "You are the one that has put SS in this position W."
W: "I need some time to just be by myself to figure out what I want for my life."
W: "I don't have hundreds of people supporting me like you do!" (W was referring to all of you here on this board and my BITS on alt).
Me: "I know."
----- (gap bc I don't remember how the conversation transitioned)
W: "I didn't have sex with OM that night. We've only been really talking again for the past 2 weeks"
Me: "Ok. Have you had sex with him in the past 2 weeks?"
W: Silence... "yes."
Me (with face in my hands): "Well, that's great then that you didn't this particular night W."
Me: "I don't know if I can forgive you for this."
W (angry for first time) "I don't give a sh!t if YOU can forgive me. I don't need your forgiveness."
W: "You want to talk about adultery or being unfaithful... you were unfaithful to me long before I EVER did anything. Go look at your bible and see if you think that looking at porn and going to strip clubs is being unfaithful!"
Me: "I know. You are right about that. I've apologized a billion times for that. I know that it was wrong of me to do those things."
Pause in convo
Me: "Do you know how much it hurts me to hear this?"
W: "I guess that I can see why it would hurt you. But I don't really understand it. You never wanted me when we were together. We went months without having sex before I left. You slept on the couch for months. Our entire R was like that. Do you remember when I was close with C (another friend of her's)?"
Me: "Yes. Like 5 years ago."
W: "Yeah, 4 or 5 years ago. He and I used to talk about how you and I didn't have sex that often. He didn't understand it at all."
Me: "I think that we went in spurts W."
W: "No. You didn't want me Denver. And now that someone else does, you all of a sudden decide that you do."
Me: "I know W. I know that we had issues. I also now know a lot of what caused some of those problems."
It was somewhere in the above portion our our convo that W mentioned something that I posed on FB a week or so ago.
W: It's like that post of your's on FB
Me: Which one?
W: The one about the consequences of your choices.
This was the post (via Truegritter):
"You always experience the consequences of your acts.
If your acts are right, you'll get good consequences.
If not, you will suffer for it.
Right or wrong it is in your hands.
But at the end, all the acts sum up as your life"
------ GAP in convo ... again don't remember transition.
W: "Besides, it isn't about the sex for women Denver. You know that."
Me: "I know. So what? Are you saying that you love OM?"
W: "I don't love him."
W: "I have a weakness for OM. He makes me feel good about myself. He was really good to us (W and SS) when things were bad."
W: "He makes me feel that I am out of his league, that he is lucky to be with me. You always made me feel that you were out of my league and that I was lucky to be with you. It is nice to be on the other side Denver."
W: "We have fun together. He reminds me that I can have fun, that I can be loved. That there is life without you."
W: "Had I been stronger, I would never have gotten involved with him. But I wasn't."
W: "I have to be the one to end it. He won't. I'm not saying he isn't respecting my wishes. He is. But I have to be the one to end it."
W: "I don't want to hurt OM but he's going to continue to get hurt."
Me: "Yeah. I'm not too concerned about you ending up with OM. You seem to agree?"
W: "It is highly unlikely that I would end up with OM."
W: "Why do you say that it is highly unlikely that I'd end up with him?"
Me: "Bc you are are SO much better than that W. So much better than him."
W: "Why? Bc he doesn't make any money?"
Me: "Well, yeah. That, and the fact that he has no morals whatsoever. I mean, who would allow themselves to get involved with a married woman?"
W: "You would do the same thing... if you were in his position and met a woman who you thought that you really liked... who was special."
Me: "NO. I WOULDN'T."
Me: "And after seeing how he was when I found him sitting on your toilet ... well..."
W (with a bit of laughter): "You're the one that has to live with that image for the rest of your life. Not me."
Pause in convo.
Me: "You know W, I f'ing hate the guy..."
W (interrupting me): "Well I didn't expect that you were going to like him."
Me: "No, I know. I hate the guy. But I am grateful for him. He has reminded me of how you deserve to be treated." (I don't entirely believe that I feel this way right now, but can see myself coming to be grateful someday - nickel to Jack ... got this from one of his posts on my thread a while back)
W didn't respond to this. I think that she was surprised that I had it in me to say something like that.
--------- GAP (again don't remember transition)
somewhere around here my cell phone rang.
Me: "did you reactivate my cell phone?"
W: "Yes."
(she must have done it when she went into the house earlier)
The convo resumed.
W: "I don't trust you Denver. You have always had wondering eyes."
W: "You have tons of women on FB who I have no clue as to who they are."
Me: "I told you that I would go through every single friend of mine on FB and answer any question that you have and remove anyone who makes you uncomfortable."
W: "Have you done that? No."
Me: "No, I haven't. But I told you that we could sit down and go through it. We haven't done that."
Me: "And some of them are friends of mine that are going through similar things that I am going through now with you."
W: "Are those the women that I see you posting to now?"
Me: "Yes, they are. They are friends. They are not all women. And we are all helping each other through this. They encourage me and support me, but they also tell me when I am wrong and tell me things about how I treated you poorly."
Pause in convo
W: "You have always had to have ex-girlfriends remain in your life."
Me: "I know. Again, I've apologized for how I handled that. I don't even have contact with M at all and with C only when I see her in court... which is very rarely."
I AGAIN validated W's feelings on all of this, but don't remember exactly what I said.
Me: "Well, I think that we now have trust issues on both sides now."
W: "Well, maybe that's a good thing!"
------ GAP in convo... not sure about transition
W went into a lot of the stuff that she has repeated to me, and I have posted about, multiple times. Complaints about me that are mostly true... those that I have apologized for a million times.
W: "I think about those things and then I think that if I come back to you, it will just be a matter of time before they are happening again... before you are sleeping on the couch again."
Me: "Those things won't happen again W. I've learned so much since you left. And I was depressed W."
Then W started talking as if she IS coming back eventually...
W: "I'm not going to be a housewife Denver."
Me: "I don't want you to be a housewife W. I never did. I know how you perceived that I did. I just don't know how we got to that point."
W: "You did before I left."
Me: "No. I never did. That's not what I wanted from you."
Me: "I've never want to stifle or hold you back W. I've always wanted you to have your friends. To go out and have your girl nights. I've always tried to support your music. Even at the end, I never wanted that and don't feel that I did."
W: "And you know that I am not the same as I was before I left. How are you going to deal with that?"
Me: "Well, I don't want things to be the same."
Pause in convo
Me: "I just want us to start treating each other well. To start loving each other like we should. I don't know W."
W: "And the first time that we fight, I know that you're going to bring all of this up."
Me: "What?"
W: "The first time that you get mad, you're going to tell me 'at least I didn't sleep with anyone else' or something."
Me: "NO. I won't. I know better. I've had it hammered into me that I can't do that. That it wouldn't be fair to you OR me to do that. Besides, this is something that, once it is dealt with, has to go into a locked box and put someplace far back in my mind. That's something that I know can't happen W."
------- GAP in convo
We talked about W moving. She told me that she needs to find a place and move by June 22nd bc she is going to southern Colorado to visit a friend for a few days and then to Philadelphia to visit another friend.
I asked her where she was going to move. She said that she didn't know yet. That it would probably be an apartment bc she can't find a house that she can afford. That it might be close to the school that she teaches at so that she can get SS into that school.
Me: "so you're going to sign a lease?"
W: "Well, yeah. I don't know of any places that won't make me sign a lease."
Me (shaking my head): "I hate to see you have to sign a lease and waste more money"
W: "Denver, It wouldn't be right for me to move back into that (our) house right now."
Me: "I know. But what about just staying here (the house that she's in now)?
W: "I can't afford it. It is destroying me financially."
Me: "I know."
W: "How about you move someplace else for a while and let me move back to the house?"
Me (chuckling quietly): "I don't think so W."
-------- GAP in convo
I told W that I needed to go bc I was suppose to meet some friends out.
W: "You sure do go out a lot since I left."
Me: "What do you expect me to do, sit at home and cry?"
W: "No. I don't expect that."
(as all of you know, I actually have sat at home and cried for much of the past 6 months... at least W apparently doesn't believe that I have! LOL)
Me: "Well, I'm going to go."
W: "Okay. So I'm just going to take some time for myself in June. Then we'll talk?"
Me: "Okay. That's fine. But I just want to say it again W, I do not want to be a part of this if OM is in your life. I have to say that again."
W: "I have no intention on that (renewing dating OM). I will let you know if that changes."
Me: "Okay."
-------
I got up (we had been sitting on her front porch) and began to walk towards the steps. W got up too.
It seems that she came closer and was expecting a hug, but I could be wrong.
I didn't move close or in to hug her. I continued on and walked to my car. I didn't look back or wave to her.
--------
I have been completely dark with W for 4 days now. SS called me today to see if he can see me before he travels to California to visit his dad in a couple of weeks.
W has been posting daily on FB. I'm not sure if it means anything, but the posts are about what she is doing... almost like she's trying to tell me 'hey this is what I am doing. I'm not with OM.'
I don't know. Probably just me making that up.
Today she posted that she was done with school for the summer and 'now time for some me time!'
---------
I am not 100% convinced that I still want to reconcile my M.
The fact that she resumed her A with OM has been a blow to what I have worked for here for 6+ months now.
I do still love my W... but I'm just not sure that I can forgive her for this.
And there is a part of me that wonders if I did continue to fight, would it be just to win... like my W says, I don't like to lose. It is something that I will continue to think about for the next 3+ weeks.
I do feel that what happened last Tuesday (OM on toilet event) is something that had to happen. I still don't regret having done what I did in the slightest.
I feel that I have evened the footing between W and I ... that I have gained the high ground so to speak. That I don't need to let W treat me like sh!t just bc I f'd up so badly in our M.
I feel that I will be okay if W chooses not to work on M (assuming that I decide that is still what I want). That I will be able to walk away knowing that I tried to fix the things that I screwed up so badly before.
I feel stronger than I have at any other point during this ordeal.
Thanks everyone for your support, your time in reading all of this (I know that it's like an episode of Jerry Springer)... and for your interest in my life.
I really do hope to pay it forward someday when I am in a better place.
Denver
What part of "go completely dark" didn't you understand, Denver?
Why ask everyone what to do about your cellphone (everyone aid "just get your own"), if you're just going to do what FEELS right to you, and go back and beg your wife to turn it back on?
I found the entire exchange to be weak and SUPPLICATING. Your wife is looking for you to stand up to her b.s., and you're continuing to talk talk talk TALK.
So many words.Less words, more ACTIONS. Be a man of succinct, powerful, honorable CONVICTIONS. I already believe you ARE that man. You just seem incapable of showing that side to your WIFE (I have a hard time with that, too).
Starsky
On the whole Denver, your conversation with W looks pretty good. You had a from the gut, honest conversation.
You both appear harbour a lot of resentment and hurt that needs to be addressed, IMO. Time, all in time.
If I may suggest something that you may find useful in your journey?
I have just finished the book " Hold Me Tight" by Sue Johnson, it's been recommended by others here at various times. (Thank you to those who have given out the title before me!)
Seriously, it has blown me away with how it gets to the heart of our hurts and grievances and eliminates the "stuff" surrounding major points of argument and hard feelings between us and those we love the most.
Perhaps it will help you back to a fulfilling R with your W, or at least give you an understanding you did not have before.
IMO, you've done well Denver. At the end I think you can be very proud of the new person you've worked so hard to become.
((Denver))
I know what you're going through is tough. And I think you've gotten some really good advice here over all. I just want to chime in from a W's perspective.
When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that, bought the t-shirt
Of course, my H went a step further and cheated, then left, adding an extra crunchy layer of goodness to my sitch.
One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H. Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.
Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time. And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought. Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.
And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.
Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.
Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
D,
Your interactions with your W were great. They were honest and they were thoughtful. One thing after reading what happened is that the two of you are communicating like a typical male and female would. It's time for her to start understanding that.
Also, I do understand about how your years of checking out porn, etc. could be damaging to her, but let's face it. She actually went out and did the thing she was afraid you would do. SHE was the one who went over that boundary. NOT YOU.
Sure with the porn it was a quick fix or whatever, but alot of it was her insecurities of you cheating on her. She was worried about the "fantasy" of you cheating on her. But she was the one who ultimately crossed that line.
You are a person of high value because you are a man of integrity. She has to be the one pursuing you, not the other way around.
thatgirl's words...
do they ring hollow---or do they ring true?
there's valuable gems in her post.
Thatgirl - GREAT post. Thank you so much for your perspective. I want to respond to it more thoroughly, but don't have time right now. I just had to thank you though.
BITS
Denver
Wow-beautifully said. I can see where my H has not jumped on the Recommitment train yet.
Denver, I have been following your post closely. Don't give up-you are allowed to have some second thoughts as you get closer to possible reconciliation (the section on infidelity in DR is really good and discusses this). You have to give yourself some time to really process these emotions or even if she comes back, you will unload on her. I still feel betrayed by the fact that my H has left (and did so while my son was 5months old) and I seem fixated on readdressing this (at least in my head) everytime I interact with him or discuss this with family. I am going to have to let this go if I have any chance of moving forward, whether it is with him or another R.
Hope this helps....I know that no one knows me yet but I have followed all of you and you are doing really well. You are at mile 22-don't give up now....ONly 4 miles to go
Shannon
You are a person of high value because you are a man of integrity.
You do realize he is an attorney.
Denver,
Ah its a shame you needed to talk to her when she shut down your phone. Her ability to keep reeling you back in is working against you.
Her believing you are truly done had her scrambling (hence all the calls), but once she shut down your phone (manipulation) you confirmed she still has a tight grip on you by calling her and going to see her.
Definitely agree there is a constant power struggle going on and she is constantly testing you for congruency with your stated changes/intentions. ie You: "I am done, I am moving on" Her: *oh yeah we will see about that! (test test test test)*
The conversation was at least well carried out, nice work there.
I would say the "I'm moving on now" attitude is working based on her response to it.
Now would be a good time to GAL your ass off. If you can convince her by your actions you are in fact still moving on, I think you can reel HER back in. Some FB updates of your own about what you are doing, and how you are having a GREAT time doing it probably wouldnt hurt. Now she needs to feel like she is missing out on all the things you are doing.
Denver, you've gotten a lot of great input here, but the one thing no one on this forum can give you is: time. Just remember, this is gonna take time.
I'm in a similar sitch with XW. In fact she's going "out of town" again this weekend. I don't let it "hurt" me. But not a day goes by that I wonder that if and when her A ever ends could I "forgive her"? The answer is "yes" with a caveat - "eventually." That's all I can promise.
Yeah, it's nice to target the goals with quotes like "from this day forward" and "starting over". And I've even thought about how it could be like when we first met, both having had multiple sexual R's in the past, which didn't seem to keep us from falling in love back then, so why not do it again?
But you and I both know this is different. We have to overcome a lot of self doubt, a lot of selfishness, a lot of negative feelings, a lot of negative history, and we have to repair a lot of damage. This stuff takes time man.
You remember how you felt and looked at each other back when you were falling in love? Remember in those magical days when it really did mean never having to say "I'm sorry"? In that state of mind - trust me - forgiveness would come easily. But it's going to take time and effort to get there. You can cram all your efforts into the next couple of months, but without the requisite time to heal and grow and get better it won't matter, and it wont work.
I'm in it for the long haul, and it could take fvcking years. Be patient Denver, have faith and don't lose hope.
Listen - without "uncertainty" there is no such thing as faith and hope. Take it slowley and whatever happens, don't neglect to stop and smell the roses.
Prayers, Pickle.
((Denver))
I know what you're going through is tough. And I think you've gotten some really good advice here over all. I just want to chime in from a W's perspective.
When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that, bought the t-shirt
Of course, my H went a step further and cheated, then left, adding an extra crunchy layer of goodness to my sitch.
One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H. Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.
Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time. And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought. Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.
And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.
Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.
Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
This is one of the best posts ever. Denver, I know that you will take it to heart.
You have given your wife a lot of positives, and you have still given her some of the MORE OF THE SAME BEHAVIOR.
This post demonstrates WHY the hard line approach will not work with many folks. You have a lot to make up for, and going with your feelings won't get you there. In that respect, the hard line is for yourself. As a man, you will set your goal and work to get there. Know the why before you set your goal, because day-to-day your feelings will betray you.
I am sure you somehow know this, because that is why, in correction you do the right thing.
What you must not do again: show up on your wife's door unannounced. It shows you do not care about her or her feelings. You are completely about you in that moment. Ask first. She'll probably fall off her chair.
Ah its a shame you needed to talk to her when she shut down your phone. Her ability to keep reeling you back in is working against you.
It happened.
And I am going to disgree spellfire.
With this kind of language. Sorry.
It doesn't help Denver. Instead makes him feel like a piece of sh!t. IMO the man is taking too many of those arrows already.
From his wife.
Women do not like controlling men. They respect and are attracted to men who control themselves. They ultimately are repelled by men who allow themselves to be controlled.
Agree in part. You gonna live your life by what someone finds attractive?
F@ck that!
Sorry. Spellfire this is not directed specifically at you I just wanted to talk about the language that gets bandied (up ^^^^thread) about here regarding what our spouses find "attractive"
Find out who you are and then live it. She doens't find it attractive then she can find some dipsh!t. (which she did)
It has nothing NOTHING to do with Denver's "attractiveness".
It MAY have something to do with the character he may have been showing her and the choices he made, but NOT his "attractiveness".
That is how we feel when we get here. It is a backwards step to focus on it.
After we have looked at ourselves...
After that...making someone feel they are not attractive for any reason is a bunch of crap. Focusing on THAT is a short term solution IMO.
You will be that idiot she left again if you're acting as if you are the "attractive guy".
Based on what empirical evidence? Are you "attractive" ?
Crap.
Real changes = real life.
Anything else is
Denver in your own words "center yourself"
Around what?
The whim of a confused WAW?
Or
.....YOU?
Gritter you sound so angry in that post. Hope all is well with you.
I'm not sure I'm reading anything in this thread about his "attractiveness" as harsh as it's being discussed right now.
My one and only opinion on the attractive debate. If you know you have changed, you feel good about yourself, and live your life as best as you can applying everything you learn from this experience to become better than you were, you will be a homing beacon for your spouse or any other woman. Being true to yourself and your integrity is attractive, whether you want to be or not.
The important part here is that you have to live for YOU with Honor and integrity. No regrets. Make sure you take time away and sort all this crap out friend. All this advice is for you and whatever YOU choose to take from it. Nothing more, nothing less.
Moose Whisperer
Not angry at all.
To me the the way it's put is wrong a lot of times
But this
If you know you have changed, you feel good about yourself, and live your life as best as you can applying everything you learn from this experience to become better than you were, you will be a homing beacon for your spouse or any other woman. Being true to yourself and your integrity is attractive, whether you want to be or not.
Is the essence of what I am getting at.
I don't disagree with one word you said up there.
Telling someone what women find attractive as a compass for your path is missing the mark.
That's all.
And, I might add, based only on my experience and judgment.
I am not claiming any other source other than my 45 years on this rock.
For what it's worth.
I HAVE been cussing a LOT. Sorry. Don't mean anything by it.
Good to hear friend!
As far as the cussing goes, we both fish and we both have been on boats. Sailor to sailor right?
Denver,
I hesitated to post this because I don't usually get this personal on the boards anymore...
I have to say that Thatgirl's post, helped me to realize exactly why it is I have push you so hard...
You remind me, of my STBXH, in many many ways. Mostly in the way that you made your W feel...
I can't tell you in words how much I wanted him to be different, even after I realized how ugly I had become because of the treatment that I accepted, the spoken and unspoken messages that I internalized. I can't tell you how hard it was for me to break free of those thought patterns for myself. The anger that I went through at first. I was angry at him and myself for all of it. And for a long while, I wanted him to hurt as badly as I had, even though I just wanted him to be different and want to reconcile...
As I realized that I was dealing with MLC and not just WAH, my anger began to subside some, the desire to reconcile NOW, was set aside...I was dealing with a monster of an entirely different color and I knew that there was a long road ahead...
And I took time to really heal myself from all of it...
Even after I became stronger and didn't want to be with him anymore, I still hoped that he would wake up and change...
For himself... for someone else...
And I hold that hope for you as well...
The truth of the matter, I didn't decide that I couldn't be with him anymore if he were to want to come back because I stopped loving him. I will always hold love for him in my heart.
I made the choice to stop standing for me.
For lots of reasons, including that I didn't know if I would be strong enough to not fall back into patterns of behavior that were not good for either of us. Especially if he did...
The day came when I met a man. A wonderful man that I love very very much...
Who is very different from STBXH in many many ways...
The most important way, is that he tells me and shows me that he loves me and wants me daily...me, no one else, no matter how cute, cranky, happy or sad I may be...
For me, it was hard to accept at first, hard to believe it was real and that it would last, because it was something that I had wanted for so long in my life and hadn't really felt...
and those fears, almost cost me this R...
Eventually, I came to trust it, to believe in him, to believe that I deserved to be treated well and that someone really did want me and love me...
The damage is still there though...the scars...I am ashamed to admit that once in a while, when things get difficult, when wires get crossed, if I feel even the littlest bit like I did in my marriage (which is, simply put, unimportant to him), my initial instinct is to run or to push him away...
Because I would rather be alone than feel that way again...
I haven't actually done it yet, although I have tried in small ways, because BF understands. Sometimes it is very frustrating for him, but it doesn't take long for him to realize what I am actually doing and why...
He tries to understand and reassure and comfort, much much more than he should ever have to...
It may not seem like it, but your W, is giving you an opportunity to really begin to show her that it won't be the same...
You can't show her that by acting superior because you have done some work and you think she hasn't, bullying, smothering, or expecting her to believe you in just six short months...
Trust me, she may not seem like she is doing anything to you but having an A, but it sure seems like she is trying to figure out if she believes that she is really lovable...
It took you a long time to create your end of this mess...
It is going to take her a long time to see that it doesn't have to be the same...
Regardless of how this turns out, regardless of whether you decide that you want her or not, or she wants you or not...
I hope that you can find, really find within yourself, what it is that you need to find to make sure that you treat the next person in your life...like she is the most special, most important person in the world to you...
I can't tell you in words how much I wanted him to be different, even after I realized how ugly I had become because of the treatment that I accepted, the spoken and unspoken messages that I internalized. I can't tell you how hard it was for me to break free of those thought patterns for myself. The anger that I went through at first. I was angry at him and myself for all of it. And for a long while, I wanted him to hurt as badly as I had, even though I just wanted him to be different and want to reconcile...
<snip>
And I took time to really heal myself from all of it...
Even after I became stronger and didn't want to be with him anymore, I still hoped that he would wake up and change...
For himself
Cat...I so hear these words. Thank you.
It took you a long time to create your end of this mess...
It is going to take her a long time to see that it doesn't have to be the same...
And that's fine.
As long as she goes no-contact with OM (or any other man) while she does it. I believe that is Denver's position, and it's perfectly reasonable (and necessary, I might add). To tell him that she is (NC), and then continue to carry on her affair, is a dealbreaker for Denver, as it would be for most any man.
Remove Denver's needs and feelings for a moment. Any good IC worth their salt would tell Denver's wife that's necessary for HER, in order to make good decisions now, to end contact with her OM and make her marital decisions from a place of emotional neutrality.
Starsky
Cat - I know that if I could ever get STBX to clearly say what she felt during our marriage, it would be what you said. I think virtually every WAW felt that way. A few months ago STBX told my daughter that all she wants is to be somebody's "only girl in the world". She was, of course, that to me but like too many men I didn't show her or make her feel that way all the time.
Sadly, OM/Boss isn't likely going to that for her long term either. but right now what he provides her with is filling a void and feels better than what she thinks I can provide.
If only all supposedly happily married people would come here and read some posts before trouble ever shows - it never would show.
Betheman,
I would like to clarify, I am not a WAW...IDK, maybe at some point, I turned into one, I know sometimes it sounds like it...
I can't say at times, I didn't consider it, based on my feelings in the M, but it was NOT something that I chosen to do...
At the time that the second crisis period hit...
I can't say for sure what would have happened down the road if he hadn't dropped the bomb...
I was sad, lonely, and had a "part time H"...
My STBX, has had two periods of MLC and several OW and I am definately an LBS who has healed, grown, and eventually moved on...
My moving on, had little to do with him and where he is or isn't, and everything to do with me and who and what I discovered through my process...
Through being truly and completly honest with myself about what I want and need in my life, about what sort of treatment I will and won't accept in my life, about how I want to treat other people, how I expect it to look etc...
Specific, deep, rose colored glasses in the garbage kind of introspection...
Another difference is that BF, is not a bandaid, not the reason I am no longer waiting for my STBX, not filling a void of any kind, not someone I met before I was already done...
He is just a man, that came into my life, at the right time...
I don't doubt that your W was important to you...
You just didn't know how to show it properly...in a way that she could hear...
And she didn't know how to ask for it...in a way that you could hear...
That is something that I am still working out in my new R...
Sometimes, I know it sounds like complaints and criticism of BF on my part...
And it isn't...
It is simply learning the correct way to clearly express my needs so that he hears them, and to listen to his needs so that I hear them, as well as actions that back up the words that get spoken...
It would be nice to think that if we educated ourselves first, that problems wouldn't appear, and many might not, but there will always be problems.
Emotions, selective hearing, selective speaking, opinions, miscommunications...
All play a role...
When we know better, we do better...bottom line...DB helps tremendously with that
You have given your wife a lot of positives, and you have still given her some of the MORE OF THE SAME BEHAVIOR.
This post demonstrates WHY the hard line approach will not work with many folks. You have a lot to make up for, and going with your feelings won't get you there. In that respect, the hard line is for yourself. As a man, you will set your goal and work to get there. Know the why before you set your goal, because day-to-day your feelings will betray you.
I am sure you somehow know this, because that is why, in correction you do the right thing.
What you must not do again: show up on your wife's door unannounced. It shows you do not care about her or her feelings. You are completely about you in that moment. Ask first. She'll probably fall off her chair.
It won't happen again Dbmod. But it DID have to happen this time. I think that someday I will look back on it and KNOW that it happened for a reason. I really do.
