Update...
So... Today was a landmark day/event in my sitch. This will be a long update. I really would appreciate whoever sticks around to read it all. It is somewhat comical... but mostly horrific. Interesting and entertaining nonetheless. Also, please read the phone conversation at the end. W made some interesting comments. Thanks all for continued support. I really need it right now.
Bottom line? I am done. Barring a miracle, my marriage is over.
Call it intuition or whatever you like, but I had a nagging feeling last night that W was with OM. I broke a cardinal rule and did a drive by of her house. There was a car that was parked in front of the neighbor's house. I had never seen it before, but I didn't think anything of it. There were no cars in front of W's house.
When I got home, I began to watch a movie. As I sat there, the car parked at the neighbor's house kept bugging me. I did my best to brush it off as my imagination, but ended up deciding that I would check it out in the morning (this morning).
I woke up at 8 a.m. I knew that W was already at work. SS was home today by himself as he has been suspended yet again. I decided that I would drive to W's neighborhood, call SS and see if he wanted to go to breakfast with me.
I got within a couple of minutes of W's house and called SS. He answered, was very groggy bc my call had awakened him. I asked him if he wanted to go with me to breakfast and he said yes.
I pulled up into W's driveway. The car from the night before was still parked in front of the neighbor's house.
I rang the doorbell. As I waited for SS to answer, I was able to see through the window that W's bedroom door was slightly ajar. When SS opened the door, her bedroom door was shut.
I told SS that I needed to look for something so needed to go in. He said 'what? Where is it?' and I could tell that he was hiding something.
I walked past him and went straight up the stairs to W's bedroom door. It was locked.
Fortunately, it was very easy to unlock from the outside. It took me literally 3 seconds. I walked into W's bedroom. I saw nothing. SS had come upstairs and started making up reasons why he had locked the door. I told him to go to his room and shut the door. He complied.
I walked through the bedroom, opened the closet doors. Still nothing. Went to the bathroom, still nothing.
Finally, as I was going to leave the bedroom, I realized that I hadn't checked the toilet room. You know that 4' x 4' room where you go to take a cr*p.
I checked the door and it was locked. Again, easy as pie to open. AND there he was... OM sitting on the toilet, underwear down at his ankles in the dark.
My recollection of the conversation is somewhat hazy as it happened very fast.
Me: 'wow... what an a**hole you are'
OM: 'ugh, uh... I'm sorry, I'm sorry'
Me: 'Man, you are destroying a marriage, a family... why don't you be a man and do what is right?'
OM: 'I know, I know, I'm sorry. I will leave right now'
Me: 'No, I don't give a sh!t if you leave. But why don't you be a man about all of this? You may think that you are in love with my wife, but she is still my wife. And do you know what you are doing to that little boy in the other room?'
OM: 'I know. I will.'
Me: 'You will what? How old are you man, 19? Do what's right.'
OM: 'I will starting now. I promise.'
I walked away at the point. Went and got SS and left the house. I know that that conversation sounds ridiculous, but OM was sitting on the toilet, with his head down, afraid that he was about to get his a$s kicked.
I was in shock at this point. I drove SS to my house. I sent W a text message as soon as we got there.
Me - 'I love you W. But our M is over. I'm filing for D today. I never wanted that. I still don't, but I can't do this.'
I took a shower while he watched t.v.
When I got out of the shower, a text conversation that went on most of the day began.
W: "You have no right to go to my house without being invited. EVER! No right. How dare you. I am not your possession and you lost me fair and square while you f'd with my heart for 8 years. You have a lot of nerve."
Me" "Ok. I'm sorry for going to your house uninvited. But you don't have to worry about it happening again."
W: "F you you c*c(sucke*! How dare you!!!!!!"
Me: "You can have him W."
W: "Don't tell me what I can have. I can do whatever the F I want."
Me: "Yes you can."
W: "Did you think about SS just now or just your selfish jealousy!!!! F you!!!!!"
Me: "Me?! Seriously W? You are the one that has put SS in this position. I just wanted to take him to breakfast."
W: "You don't show up in MY house unannounced. Ever!"
Me: "I called. But that's not really the point now. At least not for me."
W: "I need to know that SS is okay. Get the F out of my house."
Me: "SS is fine. Will you sign the D papers or do I need to have you served?"
W: "F off"
Me: "I have fought for you W. I have fought for you like I've never fought for anything in my life. But you have betrayed the trust I had in you not to break my heart."
W: "Bullsh!t. You still have your agenda and if I don't comply with your expectations, then you throw me to the curb."
W: "So typical. You are a selfish d!ck. I need to know where SS's meeting is today."
(W and I were suppose to have meeting with SS's school today. Obviously, I did not attend)
W: "You have my kid??!!!!!!!!!"
Me: "Comply with my expectations?? I was willing to be patient and give you all of the time in the world! But not to be f'ing some other guy."
W: "You f'ing d!ck. Take him home now or I will report you to the cops for kidnapping."
Me: "Fine. I will take him home."
* I told SS that W wanted me to take him home. He was disappointed and I think that he was upset. When we got to W's house, I told him that I loved him and that none of this was his fault. I told him to call me if he needs me. He said okay and went inside.
About 30 minutes later, W texted me again.
W: "I left you. I can F whomever I want and it's none of your business if I am or not."
W: "You wanted to work things out and I said I wasn't ready."
Me: "You can Em. That's right. And I can make the choice that I can't take the pain of it. And that is what I am doing."
Me: "I know what I want. I want to be married. And I'm now making the choice to begin looking elsewhere for that."
W: "Poor baby. Your pain!!! Really f'er!! It's all about your pain?? Has it not come to your attention that my pain... the pain that you have caused... is why OM is in my life in the first place. Because you weren't man enough to love me, care for me, and have a life with me."
W: "You created this hell and it's destroyed more than you. You think that this is easy on me?! This affects me too. Being torn between a chance at happiness and being loved or risking going back to our marriage, hoping for the best but fearing the same life of lonliness and pain."
W: "You have no clue how all of this has impacted my life and SS's life. You still only think of yourself."
W: "And don't threaten me you a$$hole. I'm sick of your threats. If you want to file for a D today then go do it."
Me: "I have spent the past 3 months doing everything that I can to show you how I KNOW that I f'd up and how sorry that I am for that. I've told you this before, but you leaving me was the best thing that has ever happened bc it caused me to open my eyes to who I was and who I want to be. I've tried to show you that."
W: "3 months is nothing compared to 7 years. I spent 7 years trying to get you to love me and be a part of my life. Do you know how it feels to know how unwanted and unloved you are for years? No, you don't. But it felt like sh!t. Knowing that you never wanted anything to do with me."
W: "Now you want to fix it and I'm suppose to jump up and down for joy. You are an arrogant b*stard."
Me: "I'm sorry that you have felt 'torn' between a chance at happiness with OM and our M. You no longer need to feel that way. I'm removing myself from the equation W."
Me: "I'm going to begin to move on with my life."
Me: "I KNOW that I was not good to you in a lot of ways W. I own that. As far as expecting you to jump up and down for joy goes, I don't know. I didn't expect things to happen overnight. But you have made it very clear that you have no intention of trying to do anything that would help us heal from everything."
W: "You don't need to begin. You've had your own life since you met me. You've only just started to consider having a life with me, but you can't think of anyone but yourself can you. You are pitiful and I feel bad for the next b!tch you pretend to give a sh!t about."
Me: "I will never repeat the mistakes taht I made with you. The next 'b!tch' in my life is going to get EVERYTHING from me. What I wanted to give to you."
Me: "I understand taht you are still angry and hurt. I really do. I don't even blame you. But I simply can't continue fighting under these circumstances. I think that if you really think about it, you will understand. At least I hope so. I don't hate you. I love you. I always will."
W: "Well, I'm glad that you got something from me. I trained you for some other ho*ker. Hope you're happy now that you've figured it all out.
Me: "I hope you are to W. Really."
W" "F you."
** W then began texting me again about 3 hours later.
W: "I am pressing charges against you for entering my home and taking SS without my permission. You also broke into my room in order to intimidate OM. You had no right."
Me: "SS let me into the home and wanted to go with me. I had no intention of intimidating OM. I didn't even know he was there for sure."
W: "Really. YOu just decided to break into my room and bathroom for fun. SS is not an adult. you know you can't just waltz into someone's home as you please and take their kid without permission."
Me: "I didn't 'break' into your room"
W: "I guess we'll see what the police think about my ex coming into my home while I'm at work, confronting the guy I have been seeing, and taking my son without permission."
Me: "Listen, I'm not going to be drawn into a tit for tat argument with you. I didn't do anything to hurt you W."
W: "What are you psycho! I told you after the wedding that I wanted space. That I didn't want you coming by unannounced or calling SS to locate us."
W: "You are just as crazy as you always have been. You ruined our marriage, not OM"
Me: "No W, I'm not psycho. I do love you and SS though. If that helps explain why I'm upset. I called SS before I came over and asked if he wanted to go get breakfast"
Me: "Go be happy with OM W. I'm not saying or doing anything to stop you. I'm removing our marriage as plan B for you. You have not been fair or honest."
Me: "I don't care one way or the other about OM. He is not worth my breath. I'm not wasting anymore time talking about him. Like I said, you want him, you got him."
W: "I have been honest. I told you we were talking again. I told you I was having a hard time. I told you I wasn't in a place to fix things. You have a lot of nerve accusing me of plan B. That's all your efforts are about. Your f'ing plan B. You blew me off for years, dared me to leave, ignored us, emotionally abused us, and then when I left, you decided you'd rather have us than not."
W: "If you weren't such a selfish f*ck, then I wouldn't be seeing anyone. I'd be home with you, building a life with you. You didn't want that though. YOu wanted space, freedom, porn, ex girlfriends and bed buddies."
W: "Don't you dare blame this on me. You are a f'ing a$$hole and were to stupid to see what you had until it was gone."
Me: "All of that is true. But not over the past few months. And you told me that you needed space and time. That you didn't want to date anyone. That last part was obviously a lie. But it doesn't matter anymore. It just doesn't."
Me: "I didn't blame you when we first began talking about working on our marriage back in February. As hard as it was, I swallowed my pride, recognized my part in causing what happened, and made the decision to move beyond it."
W: "No, that's what you want to believe. I never said I put OM out of my life. And again, it's none of your business."
W: "You are crazy. Once again, you've pointed out that things have to be on your terms and if not, then we can get lost. Same as you've been saying for years. How about you tell me something different."
Me: "This time is different. We have spent 3 months together. At times talking about a future for our marriage and even going to counseling. you have seen that I am dead serious about the things that I have worked to change. Yet you continue to completely disregard the fact that we are married. You can say or think whatever you want to justify your actions W. they are not justified at this point. But that is simply my point of view. You have to live with yourself.... not me. Not now."
Me: "I do NOT want this W! But I REFUSE to live in an open marriage. The last thing in the world that I want is for you and SS to not be a part of my life. I do not want this. I've said it for 6 months. How many times to I have to say it and in how many ways for you to understand that? You are leaving me with no choice at this point. No choice! How could you even respect me if I didn't walk away at this point? How could I respect myself?"
W: "I don't respect you as it is. I haven't forgiven you and that is why I wanted space."
Me: "And I was more than happy to give you space. I understood that."
W: "Oh ok. Just as long as you got to control me in the meantime. right."
Me: "I just didn't realize that give you space and time to figure out if you could forgive me meant that you'd be f'ing someone else in the meantime. Sorry, but I'm not okay with that."
Me: "I know that I can't control you. I'm not even trying to. But I deserved to know so taht I could make decisions regarding my life accordingly. Now I know. And now I'm going to move on. I want to be married. I want a family. I want someone who loves me and wants my love. That is no longer you. I have to accept that and begin to open myself up to finding that person. And I simply need to stop wishing, hoping and working for something that obviously is not going to happen."
W: "You had a family. You had someone who loved you. You have no right to accuse me of f'ing anyone. You don't know what's going on in my life. I'm not f'ing you and I hang out with you sometimes. Me asking for space was because I need time to sort through all of the sh!t you've put me through. Including the last few months. You do not own me and I left you to live my life without the man who didn't want me anyway. Now you're hiring and want another chance, but that doesn't change the fact that I left you as a result of your actions over the years."
Me: "I know W. I don't dispute any of that. What I'm saying is that I'm unwilling to continue fighting for you under these circumstances. It is too painful. I don't think that it is fair to me. It isn't fair to SS. and frankly, it isn't fair to OM. I'm going to let you live your life without me in it. And I'm going to do what I can to heal from all of this and move on."
Me: "I do want to be clear though, I do not want this. Never have"
W: "What you say now is worthless to me. You've hurt me more than you realize obviously. Otherwise you wouldn't feel like I've done you wrong by seeing someone else. You still think that I owe you something. I'm doing things on my terms now Denver, not your's. Even if OM weren't in my life I wouldn't be with you right now. You have too much sh!t to deal with and be honest with yourself about. Your actions today prove that once again."
W: "I had made some decisions about my life, but this changes everything. Go find another wife. I'm sure taht she will be just as unsatisfying as I was. I am taking care of me and SS. Not you. Not OM. Me and SS. That's what matters to me."
W: "You are always thinking that life is greener with another woman. You are a d!ck. go do as u always wanted. go find someone new."
Me: "I want to be very clear W. I do not want anyone else on this planet other than you, my wife. There is no greener grass. there is just grass. There are problems in all relationships. I know that. Bottom line, YOU have made this decision for me."
W: "You made the choice"
Me: "Ok W."
W called me just as we finished up that tex conversation. Again, my recollection is not perfect of everything that was said.
Convo began with a rehash of the above. Lot's of name calling etc. I remained very calm during the entire thing. I kept telling W that this was not something that I had wanted, but that I was done. I told her that the best way to put it is that I am closing the door to our marriage but not locking it. She kept telling me that I expect her to be ready to work on our M on my terms and my timeline. I told her that I have been fine giving her space and time, but that I draw the line with her dating OM's. That I am not going to live in an open marriage. She told me that we no longer have a marriage ... that it is just a piece of paper (something that I had told her a long time ago). I told her that I view it differently. That she was always right to see it as something sacred. Anyway, here are th highlights:
W: "You don't know anything about why OM was at the house"
Me: "I know that he was there all night"
--------
W: "I think that I've made the decision not to have either you or OM in my life"
Me: "Okay. That is your choice."
--------
W: "I told you that I need space and time to figure things out. Don't you understand that?"
Me: "I understand space and time. And W, I'd give you all of the time in the world to figure it out."
W: "Oh, but not if I date other people?!"
Me: "No, that is where my boundary is. I am not okay with that. I will not live in an open marriage. I do not think that you need to date OP to sort through things. It's been 6 months and I haven't."
W: "So what are you asking me to do?"
Me: "I'm not asking you for anything. I don't want anything from you. I'm not trying to convince you of anything and I'm not trying to get you to do anything. I am moving on with my life. I don't want anything from you at this point. I'm shutting the door on our marriage."
----------
W: "I always wanted to be loved by you. And now you want to give that to me and it p!sses me off. After all of the years that I tried, it p!ssed me off that it has taken this to get you to want that."
W: "And I still don't believe it. I think that if I hadn't left you and someone else hadn't caught my attention that you'd still be sleeping on the couch and getting upset with me everytime I did any little thing that you don't approve of.'
Me: "No, that would not happen again. I have learned too much"
W: "CAn't you see why I'm afraid?"
Me: "yes. I understand completely why you are afraid."
---------------------
Me: "I'm not mad. I'm sad. I'm sad that this is the end of our M."
W: "I don't think that we should be using the word marriage."
Me: "Well that is not my point of view. You have no right to tell me how I should view it."
----------------
W: "And if I just take space and don't see anyone else?"
Me: "Um, I don't know. I suppose that if you came to me and said that, I would have something to think about. But again, I'm not asking you for anything. As far as I'm concerned, I am moving on."
SILENCE for a long period of time... I ended the convo. "well, I'm going to go. you are not saying anything."
W: "Okay. Bye."
Me: "Bye"
(((Denver)))
How very difficult that must have been. I'm sorry it's come to this.
hmmm... she sounds kinda... angry...
tough, man... really, really tough.
I know how pissed my W was when I confronted her with OM35. When I walked into our bedroom with him and her under covers, regardless of the fact that he was fully clothed. In the morning after I had been made to sleep on the basement floor. And how pissed at me she was when I confronted her about the video of her and him. And she would have been pissed at me had I mentinoed anything about the fb pictures of her and him...
Point is... they get pissed when confronted about something that they are obviously ashamed about enough to lie about it, not just to us, but to others...
sux, man... I feel for you. Until you get over the shock and pain and anger and all the other emotions, I won't even ask you why you needed to use so many words to tell your W you were done.
Take care of yourself for today and the next couple. It will hurt, but it will start to feel better. Eventually...
Denver,
First off, I'm sorry. Really, really sorry. I was rooting for you. Still am.
But here's the thing. Your WORDS say "I'm done with you, I'm moving on with my life," and then you give her 6,500 MORE words that say you're not. Even in your "I'm done" conversation and text convo, you are SMOTHERING her and PURSUING her.
Your way hasn't worked. It never does. You deserve SO much better than this; you are a man of character and quality, I have learned that thru reading everything you've ever posted here.
Let her go. No more words.
I'm sorry. You'll be just fine tho -- I promise.
Starsky
It is somewhat comical... but mostly horrific. Interesting and entertaining nonetheless.
You summed it up nicely here.
Denver, it's tough to know what to say, I have mixed thoughts.
Based on the end of the convo, clearly your W is not done.
You said over and over that you are, but TBH, I don't buy it.
You said all of this just happened today.
Take some real time and think about it.
Think about what you did and why.
Think about what you want and why.
Update...
So... Today was a landmark day/event in my sitch. This will be a long update. I really would appreciate whoever sticks around to read it all. It is somewhat comical... but mostly horrific. Interesting and entertaining nonetheless. Also, please read the phone conversation at the end. W made some interesting comments. Thanks all for continued support. I really need it right now.
Bottom line? I am done. Barring a miracle, my marriage is over.
Call it intuition or whatever you like, but I had a nagging feeling last night that W was with OM. I broke a cardinal rule and did a drive by of her house. There was a car that was parked in front of the neighbor's house. I had never seen it before, but I didn't think anything of it. There were no cars in front of W's house.
When I got home, I began to watch a movie. As I sat there, the car parked at the neighbor's house kept bugging me. I did my best to brush it off as my imagination, but ended up deciding that I would check it out in the morning (this morning).
I woke up at 8 a.m. I knew that W was already at work. SS was home today by himself as he has been suspended yet again. I decided that I would drive to W's neighborhood, call SS and see if he wanted to go to breakfast with me.
I got within a couple of minutes of W's house and called SS. He answered, was very groggy bc my call had awakened him. I asked him if he wanted to go with me to breakfast and he said yes.
I pulled up into W's driveway. The car from the night before was still parked in front of the neighbor's house.
I rang the doorbell. As I waited for SS to answer, I was able to see through the window that W's bedroom door was slightly ajar. When SS opened the door, her bedroom door was shut.
I told SS that I needed to look for something so needed to go in. He said 'what? Where is it?' and I could tell that he was hiding something.
I walked past him and went straight up the stairs to W's bedroom door. It was locked.
Fortunately, it was very easy to unlock from the outside. It took me literally 3 seconds. I walked into W's bedroom. I saw nothing. SS had come upstairs and started making up reasons why he had locked the door. I told him to go to his room and shut the door. He complied.
I walked through the bedroom, opened the closet doors. Still nothing. Went to the bathroom, still nothing.
Finally, as I was going to leave the bedroom, I realized that I hadn't checked the toilet room. You know that 4' x 4' room where you go to take a cr*p.
I checked the door and it was locked. Again, easy as pie to open. AND there he was... OM sitting on the toilet, underwear down at his ankles in the dark.
My recollection of the conversation is somewhat hazy as it happened very fast.
Me: 'wow... what an a**hole you are'
OM: 'ugh, uh... I'm sorry, I'm sorry'
Me: 'Man, you are destroying a marriage, a family... why don't you be a man and do what is right?'
OM: 'I know, I know, I'm sorry. I will leave right now'
Me: 'No, I don't give a sh!t if you leave. But why don't you be a man about all of this? You may think that you are in love with my wife, but she is still my wife. And do you know what you are doing to that little boy in the other room?'
OM: 'I know. I will.'
Me: 'You will what? How old are you man, 19? Do what's right.'
OM: 'I will starting now. I promise.'
I walked away at the point. Went and got SS and left the house. I know that that conversation sounds ridiculous, but OM was sitting on the toilet, with his head down, afraid that he was about to get his a$s kicked.
I was in shock at this point. I drove SS to my house. I sent W a text message as soon as we got there.
Me - 'I love you W. But our M is over. I'm filing for D today. I never wanted that. I still don't, but I can't do this.' I deserve better.I took a shower while he watched t.v.
When I got out of the shower, a text conversation that went on most of the day began.
W: "You have no right to go to my house without being invited. EVER! No right. How dare you. I am not your possession and you lost me fair and square while you f'd with my heart for 8 years. You have a lot of nerve."
Me" "Ok. I'm sorry for going to your house uninvited. But you don't have to worry about it happening again."
W: "F you you c*c(sucke*! How dare you!!!!!!"
Me: "You can have him W."
W: "Don't tell me what I can have. I can do whatever the F I want."
Me: "Yes you can."
W: "Did you think about SS just now or just your selfish jealousy!!!! F you!!!!!"
Me: "Me?! Seriously W? You are the one that has put SS in this position. I just wanted to take him to breakfast."
W: "You don't show up in MY house unannounced. Ever!"
Me: "I called. But that's not really the point now. At least not for me."
W: "I need to know that SS is okay. Get the F out of my house."
Me: "SS is fine. Will you sign the D papers or do I need to have you served?"
W: "F off"
Me: "I have fought for you W. I have fought for you like I've never fought for anything in my life. But you have betrayed the trust I had in you not to break my heart."
W: "Bullsh!t. You still have your agenda and if I don't comply with your expectations, then you throw me to the curb."
W: "So typical. You are a selfish d!ck. I need to know where SS's meeting is today."
(W and I were suppose to have meeting with SS's school today. Obviously, I did not attend)
W: "You have my kid??!!!!!!!!!"
Me: "Comply with my expectations?? I was willing to be patient and give you all of the time in the world! But not to be f'ing some other guy."
W: "You f'ing d!ck. Take him home now or I will report you to the cops for kidnapping."
Me: "Fine. I will take him home."
* I told SS that W wanted me to take him home. He was disappointed and I think that he was upset. When we got to W's house, I told him that I loved him and that none of this was his fault. I told him to call me if he needs me. He said okay and went inside.
About 30 minutes later, W texted me again.
W: "I left you. I can F whomever I want and it's none of your business if I am or not."
W: "You wanted to work things out and I said I wasn't ready."
Me: "You can Em. That's right. And I can make the choice that I can't take the pain of it. And that is what I am doing."
Me: "I know what I want. I want to be married. And I'm now making the choice to begin looking elsewhere for that."
W: "Poor baby. Your pain!!! Really f'er!! It's all about your pain?? Has it not come to your attention that my pain... the pain that you have caused... is why OM is in my life in the first place. Because you weren't man enough to love me, care for me, and have a life with me."
W: "You created this hell and it's destroyed more than you. You think that this is easy on me?! This affects me too. Being torn between a chance at happiness and being loved or risking going back to our marriage, hoping for the best but fearing the same life of lonliness and pain."
W: "You have no clue how all of this has impacted my life and SS's life. You still only think of yourself."
W: "And don't threaten me you a$$hole. I'm sick of your threats. If you want to file for a D today then go do it."
Me: "I have spent the past 3 months doing everything that I can to show you how I KNOW that I f'd up and how sorry that I am for that. I've told you this before, but you leaving me was the best thing that has ever happened bc it caused me to open my eyes to who I was and who I want to be. I've tried to show you that."
W: "3 months is nothing compared to 7 years. I spent 7 years trying to get you to love me and be a part of my life. Do you know how it feels to know how unwanted and unloved you are for years? No, you don't. But it felt like sh!t. Knowing that you never wanted anything to do with me."
W: "Now you want to fix it and I'm suppose to jump up and down for joy. You are an arrogant b*stard."
Me: "I'm sorry that you have felt 'torn' between a chance at happiness with OM and our M. You no longer need to feel that way. I'm removing myself from the equation W."
Me: "I'm going to begin to move on with my life."
Me: "I KNOW that I was not good to you in a lot of ways W. I own that. As far as expecting you to jump up and down for joy goes, I don't know. I didn't expect things to happen overnight. But you have made it very clear that you have no intention of trying to do anything that would help us heal from everything."
W: "You don't need to begin. You've had your own life since you met me. You've only just started to consider having a life with me, but you can't think of anyone but yourself can you. You are pitiful and I feel bad for the next b!tch you pretend to give a sh!t about."
Me: "I will never repeat the mistakes taht I made with you. The next 'b!tch' in my life is going to get EVERYTHING from me. What I wanted to give to you."
Me: "I understand taht you are still angry and hurt. I really do. I don't even blame you. But I simply can't continue fighting under these circumstances. I think that if you really think about it, you will understand. At least I hope so. I don't hate you. I love you. I always will."
W: "Well, I'm glad that you got something from me. I trained you for some other ho*ker. Hope you're happy now that you've figured it all out.
Me: "I hope you are to W. Really."
W" "F you."
** W then began texting me again about 3 hours later.
W: "I am pressing charges against you for entering my home and taking SS without my permission. You also broke into my room in order to intimidate OM. You had no right."
Me: "SS let me into the home and wanted to go with me. I had no intention of intimidating OM. I didn't even know he was there for sure."
W: "Really. YOu just decided to break into my room and bathroom for fun. SS is not an adult. you know you can't just waltz into someone's home as you please and take their kid without permission."
Me: "I didn't 'break' into your room"
W: "I guess we'll see what the police think about my ex coming into my home while I'm at work, confronting the guy I have been seeing, and taking my son without permission."
Me: "Listen, I'm not going to be drawn into a tit for tat argument with you. I didn't do anything to hurt you W."
W: "What are you psycho! I told you after the wedding that I wanted space. That I didn't want you coming by unannounced or calling SS to locate us."
W: "You are just as crazy as you always have been. You ruined our marriage, not OM"
Me: "No W, I'm not psycho. I do love you and SS though. If that helps explain why I'm upset. I called SS before I came over and asked if he wanted to go get breakfast"
Me: "Go be happy with OM W. I'm not saying or doing anything to stop you. I'm removing our marriage as plan B for you. You have not been fair or honest."
Me: "I don't care one way or the other about OM. He is not worth my breath. I'm not wasting anymore time talking about him. Like I said, you want him, you got him."
W: "I have been honest. I told you we were talking again. I told you I was having a hard time. I told you I wasn't in a place to fix things. You have a lot of nerve accusing me of plan B. That's all your efforts are about. Your f'ing plan B. You blew me off for years, dared me to leave, ignored us, emotionally abused us, and then when I left, you decided you'd rather have us than not."
W: "If you weren't such a selfish f*ck, then I wouldn't be seeing anyone. I'd be home with you, building a life with you. You didn't want that though. YOu wanted space, freedom, porn, ex girlfriends and bed buddies."
W: "Don't you dare blame this on me. You are a f'ing a$$hole and were to stupid to see what you had until it was gone."
Me: "All of that is true. But not over the past few months. And you told me that you needed space and time. That you didn't want to date anyone. That last part was obviously a lie. But it doesn't matter anymore. It just doesn't."
Me: "I didn't blame you when we first began talking about working on our marriage back in February. As hard as it was, I swallowed my pride, recognized my part in causing what happened, and made the decision to move beyond it."
W: "No, that's what you want to believe. I never said I put OM out of my life. And again, it's none of your business."
W: "You are crazy. Once again, you've pointed out that things have to be on your terms and if not, then we can get lost. Same as you've been saying for years. How about you tell me something different."
Me: "This time is different. We have spent 3 months together. At times talking about a future for our marriage and even going to counseling. you have seen that I am dead serious about the things that I have worked to change. Yet you continue to completely disregard the fact that we are married. You can say or think whatever you want to justify your actions W. they are not justified at this point. But that is simply my point of view. You have to live with yourself.... not me. Not now."
Me: "I do NOT want this W! But I REFUSE to live in an open marriage. The last thing in the world that I want is for you and SS to not be a part of my life. I do not want this. I've said it for 6 months. How many times to I have to say it and in how many ways for you to understand that? You are leaving me with no choice at this point. No choice! How could you even respect me if I didn't walk away at this point? How could I respect myself?"
W: "I don't respect you as it is. I haven't forgiven you and that is why I wanted space."
Me: "And I was more than happy to give you space. I understood that."
W: "Oh ok. Just as long as you got to control me in the meantime. right."
Me: "I just didn't realize that give you space and time to figure out if you could forgive me meant that you'd be f'ing someone else in the meantime. Sorry, but I'm not okay with that."
Me: "I know that I can't control you. I'm not even trying to. But I deserved to know so taht I could make decisions regarding my life accordingly. Now I know. And now I'm going to move on. I want to be married. I want a family. I want someone who loves me and wants my love. That is no longer you. I have to accept that and begin to open myself up to finding that person. And I simply need to stop wishing, hoping and working for something that obviously is not going to happen."
W: "You had a family. You had someone who loved you. You have no right to accuse me of f'ing anyone. You don't know what's going on in my life. I'm not f'ing you and I hang out with you sometimes. Me asking for space was because I need time to sort through all of the sh!t you've put me through. Including the last few months. You do not own me and I left you to live my life without the man who didn't want me anyway. Now you're hiring and want another chance, but that doesn't change the fact that I left you as a result of your actions over the years."
Me: "I know W. I don't dispute any of that. What I'm saying is that I'm unwilling to continue fighting for you under these circumstances. It is too painful. I don't think that it is fair to me. It isn't fair to SS. and frankly, it isn't fair to OM. I'm going to let you live your life without me in it. And I'm going to do what I can to heal from all of this and move on."
Me: "I do want to be clear though, I do not want this. Never have"
W: "What you say now is worthless to me. You've hurt me more than you realize obviously. Otherwise you wouldn't feel like I've done you wrong by seeing someone else. You still think that I owe you something. I'm doing things on my terms now Denver, not your's. Even if OM weren't in my life I wouldn't be with you right now. You have too much sh!t to deal with and be honest with yourself about. Your actions today prove that once again."
W: "I had made some decisions about my life, but this changes everything. Go find another wife. I'm sure taht she will be just as unsatisfying as I was. I am taking care of me and SS. Not you. Not OM. Me and SS. That's what matters to me."
W: "You are always thinking that life is greener with another woman. You are a d!ck. go do as u always wanted. go find someone new."
Me: "I want to be very clear W. I do not want anyone else on this planet other than you, my wife. There is no greener grass. there is just grass. There are problems in all relationships. I know that. Bottom line, YOU have made this decision for me."
W: "You made the choice"
Me: "Ok W."
W called me just as we finished up that tex conversation. Again, my recollection is not perfect of everything that was said.
Convo began with a rehash of the above. Lot's of name calling etc. I remained very calm during the entire thing. I kept telling W that this was not something that I had wanted, but that I was done. I told her that the best way to put it is that I am closing the door to our marriage but not locking it. She kept telling me that I expect her to be ready to work on our M on my terms and my timeline. I told her that I have been fine giving her space and time, but that I draw the line with her dating OM's. That I am not going to live in an open marriage. She told me that we no longer have a marriage ... that it is just a piece of paper (something that I had told her a long time ago). I told her that I view it differently. That she was always right to see it as something sacred. Anyway, here are th highlights:
W: "You don't know anything about why OM was at the house"
Me: "I know that he was there all night"
--------
W: "I think that I've made the decision not to have either you or OM in my life"
Me: "Okay. That is your choice."
--------
W: "I told you that I need space and time to figure things out. Don't you understand that?"
Me: "I understand space and time. And W, I'd give you all of the time in the world to figure it out."
W: "Oh, but not if I date other people?!"
Me: "No, that is where my boundary is. I am not okay with that. I will not live in an open marriage. I do not think that you need to date OP to sort through things. It's been 6 months and I haven't."
W: "So what are you asking me to do?"
Me: "I'm not asking you for anything. I don't want anything from you. I'm not trying to convince you of anything and I'm not trying to get you to do anything. I am moving on with my life. I don't want anything from you at this point. I'm shutting the door on our marriage."
----------
W: "I always wanted to be loved by you. And now you want to give that to me and it p!sses me off. After all of the years that I tried, it p!ssed me off that it has taken this to get you to want that."
W: "And I still don't believe it. I think that if I hadn't left you and someone else hadn't caught my attention that you'd still be sleeping on the couch and getting upset with me everytime I did any little thing that you don't approve of.'
Me: "No, that would not happen again. I have learned too much"
W: "CAn't you see why I'm afraid?"
Me: "yes. I understand completely why you are afraid."
---------------------
Me: "I'm not mad. I'm sad. I'm sad that this is the end of our M."
W: "I don't think that we should be using the word marriage."
Me: "Well that is not my point of view. You have no right to tell me how I should view it."
----------------
W: "And if I just take space and don't see anyone else?"
Me: "Um, I don't know. I suppose that if you came to me and said that, I would have something to think about. But again, I'm not asking you for anything. As far as I'm concerned, I am moving on."
SILENCE for a long period of time... I ended the convo. "well, I'm going to go. you are not saying anything."
W: "Okay. Bye."
Me: "Bye"
There. Fixed it for you.
I was going to say the same thing, you do not sound done, and neither does your W.
I was shocked to read you confronted OM and how calm you were about it.
I am actually surprised you didn't clock him one.
I'm just....at a loss for words. I'm so sorry it came down to this.
^^^what Country & DG said. That is tough, man. I hate to hear it.
Sometimes we have to have these kinds of conversations to move forward - in either direction. It's ok, you did well. Now cool off a few days and see what happens - no more confrontation.
25MLC? I could really use your thoughts here since you know my sitch so well.
Denver
Hi Denver-
I'm so sorry. I know this is gut wrenching.
It's hard to imagine right now, but people do come back from this. This is the time to DO NOTHING, and MAKE NO LIFE DECISIONS right now.
Just back off and take care of yourself.
You are going to get all kinds of advice. Don't act on it right now. You will need some time to put everything in perspective and to determine your own goals.
You will always be able to file, to leave, or to get back together. Take care of Denver right now.
I just "landed" here. Give me a few...
Update...
So... Today was a
landmark day/event in my sitch. This will be a long update. I really would appreciate whoever sticks around to read it all. It is somewhat comical... but mostly horrific.
Bottom line? I am done. Barring a miracle, my marriage is over.
Denver, first off, all is not lost, necessarily.
I read it all. I did laugh...fwiw...( cough cough) ahem...
The text conversation and phone conversation UNTIL the end, pretty much was batshit stuff and you know it.
You may have been calm on the phone but the problem was that you were ON the phone at all...you know this already of course...
[color:#FF0000]
Here's the deal...I'll post about the end of the convo but I'm concerned about your repeated statements that you would file b/c you "have no choice" AND you must if you are "self respecting". Sort of paints you into a corner. In a way, how can you NOT file, something?
Are there legal seps there? Can you file a warning letter or something less than div? AND don't forget, here, only 1/3 of divorces filed are ever finalized...
The bad news is, that sometimes I think she has you by the ba!!s and NOT
in an attractive way. That can help a situation when you are compensating
and doing 180s but at some point it has to equalize out. She KNOWS she's abusing you...and she continues...enough already.
Sorry but it's just my first impression. YES I know you were a horrible evil troll to her
and she was the perfect wife, always, (here's a tiny dose of reality-
having a batshit son isn't easy, and it's NOT attractive to a lot of men, nor are there many who want the chance to father HIM.
THIS she will learn soon, if she doesn't already know it..)...
She has baggage most men won't deal with unless she's the hottest babe around AND OR has some serious money. AND Or unless they're losers. I dated a bit when h was gone for 2 years and have to say I was quickly guarded with younger men who seemed to want "a cougar with money" (God, I hope that doesn't sound as weird reading it as it is to write it)
But as the w of a doctor and a L myself, I was surprised at how many blatant users are out there. Young men looking for a mommy figure or a place to live with benefits. Not some great love or even great sex (no, I didn't but I have friends who did) and so, I just don't think reality and time on her own, is bad for your cause. UNLESS YOU KEEP FIGHTING...
[/color]
Call it intuition or whatever you like, but I had a nagging feeling last night that W was with OM. I broke a cardinal rule and did a drive by of her house.
Denver, Denver, Denver....you big goof ball...I'm not even going to comment about ^^^^that... b/c that's how goofy this ^^^ stuff is. 
I walked past him and went straight up the stairs to W's bedroom door. It was locked.
Let's hope she doesn't file charges...tell me your name is on the deed???
Fortunately, it was very easy to unlock from the outside. It took me literally 3 seconds.
Ahhhh nooooo..... Sorry YOUR HONOR,- NOT GUILTY B/C DENVER WAS CRAZY...
I realized that I hadn't checked the toilet room. You know that 4' x 4' room where you go to take a cr*p.
I checked the door and it was locked. Again, easy as pie to open. AND there he was...
OM sitting on the toilet, underwear down at his ankles in the dark. YOUR HONOR...NOT GUILTY--DENVER had to go to the bathroom...and didn't know it was occupied... 
Me: 'wow... what an a**hole you are' Literally...OM: 'ugh, uh... I'm sorry, I'm sorry'
Indeed you are...a sorry OM....
Me: 'Man, you are destroying a marriage, a family...
why don't you be a man and do what is right?'OM: 'I know, I know, I'm sorry. I will leave right now'
Me: '
No, I don't give a sh!t if you leave.
But why don't you be a man about all of this? You may think that you are in love with my wife, but she is still my wife. And do you know what you are doing to that little boy in the other room?'
Just to chime in for the fun of it, you DO know this ^^^ doesn't even make sense, right? I mean logically, it's batshit. You want him out, but then you say you don't give a sh44 and want him to "man up"-- whatever that means to guys on the toilet... 
OM: 'I know. I will.'
Me: 'You will what? How old are you man, 19?
[b] Do what's right.'[/b]
OM: 'I will starting now. I promise.'
I walked away at the point. .. I drove SS to my house.
I sent W a text message as soon as we got there.
Nooooooooo
...
blah blah blah blah blah back and forth ANGER ANGER ANGER (STOMPING FEET 
HERE BELOW are the gems among the rocks...
W: "
I told you that I need space and time to figure things out. Don't you understand that?"
translation...I want a way out of this lose lose conversation...but I'm too proud and angry to back down, and have no tools for handling those issues.
Me: "I understand space and time. And W, I'd give you all of the time in the world to figure it out."
W: "Oh, but not if I date other people?!"
Me: "No, that is where my boundary is. I am not okay with that. I will not live in an open marriage. I do not think that you need to date OP to sort through things. It's been 6 months and I haven't."
This sounds like a negotiation. Did she KNOW these terms?
W
: "So what are you asking me to do?"
Me: "I'm not asking you for anything.
I don't want anything from you. I'm not trying to convince you of anything and
I'm not trying to get you to do anything. I am moving on with my life. I don't want anything from you at this point. I'm shutting the door on our marriage."
---------
-YIKES...SHE JUST ASKED YOU WHAT SHE COULD DO....AND YOU SAID NOTHING, AS YOU ARE "SHUTTING THE DOOR"...(sigh)
W: "I always wanted to be loved by you. And now you want to give that to me and it p!sses me off. After all of the years that I tried, it p!ssed me off that it has taken this to get you to want that."
W: "And I still don't believe it. I think that if I hadn't left you and someone else hadn't caught my attention that you'd still be sleeping on the couch and getting upset with me everytime I did any little thing that you don't approve of.'
SHE'S DARING YOU TO KEEP TREATING HER RIGHT AND PROVE YOU'RE FOR REAL...BUT she's also wanting to cake eat...and abuse you some more.
Me: "No, that would not happen again. I have learned too much"
W: "CAn't you see why I'm afraid?"
WANTS REASSURANCE FROM YOU...HAS SHIFTED THE WHOLE CONVERSATION TO HER TERMS & WHAT SHE WANTS FROM YOU...this used to be what you wanted...right?
Me: "yes. I understand completely why you are afraid."
Me: "I'm not mad. I'm sad.
I'm sad that this is the end of our M."
OF COURSE YOU ARE ANGRY...YOUR PRIDE/EGO WAS HURT, AND SO, YOU ARE ENDING THE Marriage... YOU ACTED/TEXTED WITHOUT THINKING. YOU REACTED...bummer.
EVEN THOUGH SHE IS SAYING 'WHAT CAN I DO'? AND 'DON'T YOU SEE WHY I AM AFRAID?"
But in fairness Denver,
you DO have the right to draw your line in the sand.
We all have them and sometimes we don't know where they are until they've been crossed.
We have to look within and shelve the ego and pride and honestly assess whether we can forgive something or even just handle it. (As an example If my h were ever in an A with a sister of mine for instance, I'd drop the m. That's something I could not deal with -unless he had a brain tumor, ya know?)...
So you have to ask yourself, "Can I live with THIS behavior even if it is over? (Is it over??) Is this something I can forgive and forget?" And if the answer is "no", (I don't think this is anti DBing but it might be but here it goes...)
if the answer is no, then maybe we owe it to ourselves AND our spouses, to let them go.
If we know we cannot forgive something, then having a restored happy m, isn't going to ever happen. What's the point then?
Maybe if there are young kids and you don't mind a platonic sham marriage...and some can pull it off.
But otherwise, IF we're going to make them miserable holding it over their head forever or every time we fight throwing it into their faces, and we know this...And we'll always get that sick to the stomach feeling when they're "working late" or get a text...and we won't "work on it"
b/c it's simply something we know we lack in our genes to cope with, THEN YES, it's over...
W: "And if I just take space and don't see anyone else?"
She's negotiating/asking you for the terms of the R...
Me: "Um, I don't know. I suppose that if you came to me and said that, I would have something to think about. But again, I'm not asking you for anything. As far as I'm concerned, I am moving on."
You better have meant that b/c if you didn't, then you just shut a door she had opened...She was thinking about offering you those terms or at least probing, and she would have had to swallow her pride to agree then and there...but YOU stopped it so she could not. .
I ended the convo. "well, I'm going to go. you are not saying anything."
IMO, just my gut, the translation here is -That's you telling her you want an apology and a promise and a new R, and then her not being able to comply...
W: "Okay. Bye."
Me: "Bye"
Obviously, today, You guys lacked good communication skills and that's putting it mildly. Couples need to be able to fight fair or walk away. These types of fights leave wounds that sometimes cannot heal. Was this typical of old behavior?
Too bad you continued to threaten and then she dared you to follow through and you insisted that you WILL folllow through and you explain you "have to" b/c you "have no choice" b/c she is making you do this...
and the thing is Denver, a part of me agrees...meaning, you have painted yourself into a corner with the insistent threat/promise/declaration that it was over now.SO my question is two fold.
First, is it over? I mean we know you love her, but seriously it might be over for you if this is something that just crossed the line too much for you.
If my h were with a 19 y/o, I'd have some ego issues but I'd also know that those "ego issues" are frickin REAL and they might not go away very easily
and if there are other problems too...I don't know if I could do that. I probably would need some serious space...
Like maybe I would file and then just let it drop...make no movement.
Here in this state, if you file and then do nothing for 6 months, it expires.
You could possibly try that.
File, then forget about it, and act as if and I mean ACT AS IF in the zero backsliding ways.
No more fighting, no more R talk or even overt effort..
.just you pleasantly moving on and staying involved in SS life, big time
He's your way back to her you know...OR you somehow explain why you are not filing but you would have to do that in a way that doesn't make you look weak or indecisive or as if you were simply angry and trying to control her...
which you were/are...
But if you do nothing, then....idk...well, then what?
Can Denver say (about 39 times) he's "done" "moving on" and have her dare him to do it (about 53 times) and him insisting "This is it! She "crossed a line and it's over!"
and then do nothing, without losing all his credibility?Denver,
Your goal is not saving your marriage
"at all costs"...isn't it having a restored marriage with healthy boundaries...?
I just pose those questions to you.
[b]You are the only one who can answer them but do Answer them before you do anything.
Oh, and NO MORE of these furious conversations!! So much anger that even the end comments were almost not worth it...were they?
[/b]
I guess she was dishonest with you. But I'm not clear on what you were thinking she was doing all this time...being like you were?
But she wasn't...she wanted to date. She's not the type of woman (with that son), to be able to be alone for any real amount of time. She's the type of woman who needs a man around. A source of affection and fun to give her a break, in the ceaseless demands of son.
Is it b/c the "A" before, was a
fait accompli when you found out way back when, whereas now,
it's NOW and that's what you cannot abide by?
Correct? I get that.
But healthy boundaries, and pride based punishments often have a fine line between them...So, you have a choice to make.
1. Can you file and push the pedal to the floor, get it over with & finally so move on with your life?
2. Can you file and then ignore it?
3. Can you do nothing?
4. Can you go back to her, and say "let's start over, from this day forward"?
Good luck
Update...
So... Today was a landmark day/event in my sitch. This will be a long update. I really would appreciate whoever sticks around to read it all. It is somewhat comical... but mostly horrific. Interesting and entertaining nonetheless. Also, please read the phone conversation at the end. W made some interesting comments. Thanks all for continued support. I really need it right now.
Bottom line? I am done. Barring a miracle, my marriage is over.
Call it intuition or whatever you like, but I had a nagging feeling last night that W was with OM. I broke a cardinal rule and did a drive by of her house. There was a car that was parked in front of the neighbor's house. I had never seen it before, but I didn't think anything of it. There were no cars in front of W's house.
When I got home, I began to watch a movie. As I sat there, the car parked at the neighbor's house kept bugging me. I did my best to brush it off as my imagination, but ended up deciding that I would check it out in the morning (this morning).
I woke up at 8 a.m. I knew that W was already at work. SS was home today by himself as he has been suspended yet again. I decided that I would drive to W's neighborhood, call SS and see if he wanted to go to breakfast with me.
I got within a couple of minutes of W's house and called SS. He answered, was very groggy bc my call had awakened him. I asked him if he wanted to go with me to breakfast and he said yes.
I pulled up into W's driveway. The car from the night before was still parked in front of the neighbor's house.
I rang the doorbell. As I waited for SS to answer, I was able to see through the window that W's bedroom door was slightly ajar. When SS opened the door, her bedroom door was shut.
I told SS that I needed to look for something so needed to go in. He said 'what? Where is it?' and I could tell that he was hiding something.
I walked past him and went straight up the stairs to W's bedroom door. It was locked.
Fortunately, it was very easy to unlock from the outside. It took me literally 3 seconds. I walked into W's bedroom. I saw nothing. SS had come upstairs and started making up reasons why he had locked the door. I told him to go to his room and shut the door. He complied.
I walked through the bedroom, opened the closet doors. Still nothing. Went to the bathroom, still nothing.
Finally, as I was going to leave the bedroom, I realized that I hadn't checked the toilet room. You know that 4' x 4' room where you go to take a cr*p.
I checked the door and it was locked. Again, easy as pie to open. AND there he was... OM sitting on the toilet, underwear down at his ankles in the dark.
My recollection of the conversation is somewhat hazy as it happened very fast.
Me: 'wow... what an a**hole you are'
OM: 'ugh, uh... I'm sorry, I'm sorry'
Me: 'Man, you are destroying a marriage, a family... why don't you be a man and do what is right?'
OM: 'I know, I know, I'm sorry. I will leave right now'
Me: 'No, I don't give a sh!t if you leave. But why don't you be a man about all of this? You may think that you are in love with my wife, but she is still my wife. And do you know what you are doing to that little boy in the other room?'
OM: 'I know. I will.'
Me: 'You will what? How old are you man, 19? Do what's right.'
OM: 'I will starting now. I promise.'
I walked away at the point. Went and got SS and left the house. I know that that conversation sounds ridiculous, but OM was sitting on the toilet, with his head down, afraid that he was about to get his a$s kicked.
I was in shock at this point. I drove SS to my house. I sent W a text message as soon as we got there.
Me - 'I love you W. But our M is over. I'm filing for D today. I never wanted that. I still don't, but I can't do this.'
I took a shower while he watched t.v.
When I got out of the shower, a text conversation that went on most of the day began.
W: "You have no right to go to my house without being invited. EVER! No right. How dare you. I am not your possession and you lost me fair and square while you f'd with my heart for 8 years. You have a lot of nerve."
Me" "Ok. I'm sorry for going to your house uninvited. But you don't have to worry about it happening again."
W: "F you you c*c(sucke*! How dare you!!!!!!"
Me: "You can have him W."
W: "Don't tell me what I can have. I can do whatever the F I want."
Me: "Yes you can."
W: "Did you think about SS just now or just your selfish jealousy!!!! F you!!!!!"
Me: "Me?! Seriously W? You are the one that has put SS in this position. I just wanted to take him to breakfast."
W: "You don't show up in MY house unannounced. Ever!"
Me: "I called. But that's not really the point now. At least not for me."
W: "I need to know that SS is okay. Get the F out of my house."
Me: "SS is fine. Will you sign the D papers or do I need to have you served?"
W: "F off"
Me: "I have fought for you W. I have fought for you like I've never fought for anything in my life. But you have betrayed the trust I had in you not to break my heart."
W: "Bullsh!t. You still have your agenda and if I don't comply with your expectations, then you throw me to the curb."
W: "So typical. You are a selfish d!ck. I need to know where SS's meeting is today."
(W and I were suppose to have meeting with SS's school today. Obviously, I did not attend)
W: "You have my kid??!!!!!!!!!"
Me: "Comply with my expectations?? I was willing to be patient and give you all of the time in the world! But not to be f'ing some other guy."
W: "You f'ing d!ck. Take him home now or I will report you to the cops for kidnapping."
Me: "Fine. I will take him home."
* I told SS that W wanted me to take him home. He was disappointed and I think that he was upset. When we got to W's house, I told him that I loved him and that none of this was his fault. I told him to call me if he needs me. He said okay and went inside.
About 30 minutes later, W texted me again.
W: "I left you. I can F whomever I want and it's none of your business if I am or not."
W: "You wanted to work things out and I said I wasn't ready."
Me: "You can Em. That's right. And I can make the choice that I can't take the pain of it. And that is what I am doing."
Me: "I know what I want. I want to be married. And I'm now making the choice to begin looking elsewhere for that."
W: "Poor baby. Your pain!!! Really f'er!! It's all about your pain?? Has it not come to your attention that my pain... the pain that you have caused... is why OM is in my life in the first place. Because you weren't man enough to love me, care for me, and have a life with me."
W: "You created this hell and it's destroyed more than you. You think that this is easy on me?! This affects me too. Being torn between a chance at happiness and being loved or risking going back to our marriage, hoping for the best but fearing the same life of lonliness and pain."
W: "You have no clue how all of this has impacted my life and SS's life. You still only think of yourself."
W: "And don't threaten me you a$$hole. I'm sick of your threats. If you want to file for a D today then go do it."
Me: "I have spent the past 3 months doing everything that I can to show you how I KNOW that I f'd up and how sorry that I am for that. I've told you this before, but you leaving me was the best thing that has ever happened bc it caused me to open my eyes to who I was and who I want to be. I've tried to show you that."
W: "3 months is nothing compared to 7 years. I spent 7 years trying to get you to love me and be a part of my life. Do you know how it feels to know how unwanted and unloved you are for years? No, you don't. But it felt like sh!t. Knowing that you never wanted anything to do with me."
W: "Now you want to fix it and I'm suppose to jump up and down for joy. You are an arrogant b*stard."
Me: "I'm sorry that you have felt 'torn' between a chance at happiness with OM and our M. You no longer need to feel that way. I'm removing myself from the equation W."
Me: "I'm going to begin to move on with my life."
Me: "I KNOW that I was not good to you in a lot of ways W. I own that. As far as expecting you to jump up and down for joy goes, I don't know. I didn't expect things to happen overnight. But you have made it very clear that you have no intention of trying to do anything that would help us heal from everything."
W: "You don't need to begin. You've had your own life since you met me. You've only just started to consider having a life with me, but you can't think of anyone but yourself can you. You are pitiful and I feel bad for the next b!tch you pretend to give a sh!t about."
Me: "I will never repeat the mistakes taht I made with you. The next 'b!tch' in my life is going to get EVERYTHING from me. What I wanted to give to you."
Me: "I understand taht you are still angry and hurt. I really do. I don't even blame you. But I simply can't continue fighting under these circumstances. I think that if you really think about it, you will understand. At least I hope so. I don't hate you. I love you. I always will."
W: "Well, I'm glad that you got something from me. I trained you for some other ho*ker. Hope you're happy now that you've figured it all out.
Me: "I hope you are to W. Really."
W" "F you."
** W then began texting me again about 3 hours later.
W: "I am pressing charges against you for entering my home and taking SS without my permission. You also broke into my room in order to intimidate OM. You had no right."
Me: "SS let me into the home and wanted to go with me. I had no intention of intimidating OM. I didn't even know he was there for sure."
W: "Really. YOu just decided to break into my room and bathroom for fun. SS is not an adult. you know you can't just waltz into someone's home as you please and take their kid without permission."
Me: "I didn't 'break' into your room"
W: "I guess we'll see what the police think about my ex coming into my home while I'm at work, confronting the guy I have been seeing, and taking my son without permission."
Me: "Listen, I'm not going to be drawn into a tit for tat argument with you. I didn't do anything to hurt you W."
W: "What are you psycho! I told you after the wedding that I wanted space. That I didn't want you coming by unannounced or calling SS to locate us."
W: "You are just as crazy as you always have been. You ruined our marriage, not OM"
Me: "No W, I'm not psycho. I do love you and SS though. If that helps explain why I'm upset. I called SS before I came over and asked if he wanted to go get breakfast"
Me: "Go be happy with OM W. I'm not saying or doing anything to stop you. I'm removing our marriage as plan B for you. You have not been fair or honest."
Me: "I don't care one way or the other about OM. He is not worth my breath. I'm not wasting anymore time talking about him. Like I said, you want him, you got him."
W: "I have been honest. I told you we were talking again. I told you I was having a hard time. I told you I wasn't in a place to fix things. You have a lot of nerve accusing me of plan B. That's all your efforts are about. Your f'ing plan B. You blew me off for years, dared me to leave, ignored us, emotionally abused us, and then when I left, you decided you'd rather have us than not."
W: "If you weren't such a selfish f*ck, then I wouldn't be seeing anyone. I'd be home with you, building a life with you. You didn't want that though. YOu wanted space, freedom, porn, ex girlfriends and bed buddies."
W: "Don't you dare blame this on me. You are a f'ing a$$hole and were to stupid to see what you had until it was gone."
Me: "All of that is true. But not over the past few months. And you told me that you needed space and time. That you didn't want to date anyone. That last part was obviously a lie. But it doesn't matter anymore. It just doesn't."
Me: "I didn't blame you when we first began talking about working on our marriage back in February. As hard as it was, I swallowed my pride, recognized my part in causing what happened, and made the decision to move beyond it."
W: "No, that's what you want to believe. I never said I put OM out of my life. And again, it's none of your business."
W: "You are crazy. Once again, you've pointed out that things have to be on your terms and if not, then we can get lost. Same as you've been saying for years. How about you tell me something different."
Me: "This time is different. We have spent 3 months together. At times talking about a future for our marriage and even going to counseling. you have seen that I am dead serious about the things that I have worked to change. Yet you continue to completely disregard the fact that we are married. You can say or think whatever you want to justify your actions W. they are not justified at this point. But that is simply my point of view. You have to live with yourself.... not me. Not now."
Me: "I do NOT want this W! But I REFUSE to live in an open marriage. The last thing in the world that I want is for you and SS to not be a part of my life. I do not want this. I've said it for 6 months. How many times to I have to say it and in how many ways for you to understand that? You are leaving me with no choice at this point. No choice! How could you even respect me if I didn't walk away at this point? How could I respect myself?"
W: "I don't respect you as it is. I haven't forgiven you and that is why I wanted space."
Me: "And I was more than happy to give you space. I understood that."
W: "Oh ok. Just as long as you got to control me in the meantime. right."
Me: "I just didn't realize that give you space and time to figure out if you could forgive me meant that you'd be f'ing someone else in the meantime. Sorry, but I'm not okay with that."
Me: "I know that I can't control you. I'm not even trying to. But I deserved to know so taht I could make decisions regarding my life accordingly. Now I know. And now I'm going to move on. I want to be married. I want a family. I want someone who loves me and wants my love. That is no longer you. I have to accept that and begin to open myself up to finding that person. And I simply need to stop wishing, hoping and working for something that obviously is not going to happen."
W: "You had a family. You had someone who loved you. You have no right to accuse me of f'ing anyone. You don't know what's going on in my life. I'm not f'ing you and I hang out with you sometimes. Me asking for space was because I need time to sort through all of the sh!t you've put me through. Including the last few months. You do not own me and I left you to live my life without the man who didn't want me anyway. Now you're hiring and want another chance, but that doesn't change the fact that I left you as a result of your actions over the years."
Me: "I know W. I don't dispute any of that. What I'm saying is that I'm unwilling to continue fighting for you under these circumstances. It is too painful. I don't think that it is fair to me. It isn't fair to SS. and frankly, it isn't fair to OM. I'm going to let you live your life without me in it. And I'm going to do what I can to heal from all of this and move on."
Me: "I do want to be clear though, I do not want this. Never have"
W: "What you say now is worthless to me. You've hurt me more than you realize obviously. Otherwise you wouldn't feel like I've done you wrong by seeing someone else. You still think that I owe you something. I'm doing things on my terms now Denver, not your's. Even if OM weren't in my life I wouldn't be with you right now. You have too much sh!t to deal with and be honest with yourself about. Your actions today prove that once again."
W: "I had made some decisions about my life, but this changes everything. Go find another wife. I'm sure taht she will be just as unsatisfying as I was. I am taking care of me and SS. Not you. Not OM. Me and SS. That's what matters to me."
W: "You are always thinking that life is greener with another woman. You are a d!ck. go do as u always wanted. go find someone new."
Me: "I want to be very clear W. I do not want anyone else on this planet other than you, my wife. There is no greener grass. there is just grass. There are problems in all relationships. I know that. Bottom line, YOU have made this decision for me."
W: "You made the choice"
Me: "Ok W."
W called me just as we finished up that tex conversation. Again, my recollection is not perfect of everything that was said.
Convo began with a rehash of the above. Lot's of name calling etc. I remained very calm during the entire thing. I kept telling W that this was not something that I had wanted, but that I was done. I told her that the best way to put it is that I am closing the door to our marriage but not locking it. She kept telling me that I expect her to be ready to work on our M on my terms and my timeline. I told her that I have been fine giving her space and time, but that I draw the line with her dating OM's. That I am not going to live in an open marriage. She told me that we no longer have a marriage ... that it is just a piece of paper (something that I had told her a long time ago). I told her that I view it differently. That she was always right to see it as something sacred. Anyway, here are th highlights:
W: "You don't know anything about why OM was at the house"
Me: "I know that he was there all night"
--------
W: "I think that I've made the decision not to have either you or OM in my life"
Me: "Okay. That is your choice."
--------
W: "I told you that I need space and time to figure things out. Don't you understand that?"
Me: "I understand space and time. And W, I'd give you all of the time in the world to figure it out."
W: "Oh, but not if I date other people?!"
Me: "No, that is where my boundary is. I am not okay with that. I will not live in an open marriage. I do not think that you need to date OP to sort through things. It's been 6 months and I haven't."
W: "So what are you asking me to do?"
Me: "I'm not asking you for anything. I don't want anything from you. I'm not trying to convince you of anything and I'm not trying to get you to do anything. I am moving on with my life. I don't want anything from you at this point. I'm shutting the door on our marriage."
----------
W: "I always wanted to be loved by you. And now you want to give that to me and it p!sses me off. After all of the years that I tried, it p!ssed me off that it has taken this to get you to want that."
W: "And I still don't believe it. I think that if I hadn't left you and someone else hadn't caught my attention that you'd still be sleeping on the couch and getting upset with me everytime I did any little thing that you don't approve of.'
Me: "No, that would not happen again. I have learned too much"
W: "CAn't you see why I'm afraid?"
Me: "yes. I understand completely why you are afraid."
---------------------
Me: "I'm not mad. I'm sad. I'm sad that this is the end of our M."
W: "I don't think that we should be using the word marriage."
Me: "Well that is not my point of view. You have no right to tell me how I should view it."
----------------
W: "And if I just take space and don't see anyone else?"
Me: "Um, I don't know. I suppose that if you came to me and said that, I would have something to think about. But again, I'm not asking you for anything. As far as I'm concerned, I am moving on."
SILENCE for a long period of time... I ended the convo. "well, I'm going to go. you are not saying anything."
W: "Okay. Bye."
Me: "Bye"
^^^^^^^
the update from my horrific day is above for those of you who want to read it...
UPDATE... W continued with craziness this evening:
w texted me at around 10:30
W: "have you been stalking me? Why would you text FIL last week and tell him I was dating OM?"
Me: "No. that is not what was said. And I didn't text him."
Me: "But I will assume that is what I would have found had I been."
W: "Really. So what did you say?"
Me: "Why don't you ask him."
W: "I did and that's what I was told. You can assume whatever you'd like. I'm sure you feel better that way."
Me: "Yeah W. I feel great. You should know better than that."
W: "I think that you like to win. That's what your life is about. You blame me and make me look like I've done something wrong so you feel like you win. this time you lost though. You lost big time!"
Me: "This was not about winning for me W. I'm sorry that you feel that way."
Me: "I don't understand why you won't see that I want to save our M more than anything. I really don't."
Me: "I have fought for you like I have NEVER fought for anything. I have put my ego aside and swallowed my pride on things that I never thougt I was capable of. I have looked at myself and my shortcomings in a way that I needed to. yet you refuse to see any of it."
W: "I see your effort but it doesn't change that I don't trust you and I think that you are motivated for selfish reasons."
W: "I don't even feel safe in my own home because of you."
Me: "I know that you don't trust me W. I do. But you haven't given me a chance to prove that you can. I'm not motivated by selfish reasons. I wanted nothing more than to work every day for the rest of my life making up for how I did you wrong in the past. I regret that more than I can ever say in words. There is nothing selfish about it. Other than wanting to have you and SS in my life."
W did not respond. And yes, I said way too much.
BITS
Denver
you sure do say too much. And
Can you please stop apologizing?
It's "worthless" per HER words, and it's not fair, and it's not attractive, and it's not working...
and do you need any more reasons?
geezus rice...
From where I sit, you're not a bad catch.
So knock off the prone position and do what you told that idiot on the toilet...
"Man up", hold your head high and let her stew in her anger...
I hoped you two would 'retreat" after all these bombs but she launches them again, and you take them...why are you guys even talking or texting each other?
either file or don't. But stop taking her calls. Stop all the contact except for ss.
Like I said,
he's your way back to her, BUT also, he counts on you and it's the right thing to do anyhow.
For now, let her go. Seriously, let her go. She has to feel free to be able to "see" you. Do you get that?
She (and you) need to be free from each other for some amount of time.
You're both too in the fog to see.
She cannot see clearly, she's in a fog of anger, and you keep falling on your sword. That OVER validates her anger.
I don't know how much of a jerk you were, but enough already.
She probably IS angry that you seem like a nice guy NOW, b/c some other woman will benefit and that drives her crazy...
LET IT DRIVE HER CRAZY...
she needs to see you in a new light.
back off...no more talking at all....
Can you do the following, which was of immense help to me...
For a chunk of time, say 3 days or a week (preferably a month, but it's you& I'm being realistic)...
SHELVE THE PAIN AND ANGER AND NEED TO TALK...you can't bill her for your time!!But you do seem to have a need to get the last word in and I recognize that as a trait in MOI...or it's the L in us...point is, shut up, okay?
Just STHU....it's SO not helping your cause...ever....she won't let you get the last word in anyhow!!
Okay so here's what happened to us a few years back. Take what you will from this.
As h was preparing to leave us and the marriage, for the Last Frontier, he had a conference in Palm Springs for 4 days, about 2-3 months before his departure day, which for me was our divorce day.
I saw his pending departure as pretty much a fatal to the m act, on his part...since he'd be living 3000 miles away. A bit much.
H Wanted me and d's to go and have a 'mini vacation with him to Palm Springs. What??
This seemed fake and insane to me. Also felt that it would "reward" h or seem like all was well and that he'd get the wrong impression.
Almost felt that I should always show my pain to him, OR he might think it was alright now, or he'd take advantage, get worse, repeat the behavior, etc. (Like your w??)
Somehow a brilliant divine or DB idea replaced my idiocy and instead, I chose to
make the trip a good one for the girls b/c it was going to be our last chance to make some good memories. I wanted this for them. And I wanted to be able to be in the same car/room with h and not discuss decisions, or have any fights or any "talk"...Nothing bad for four days. There was nothing that could not wait those days anyhow.
I thought I would try to give h something to miss.
But how? I was so angry and in my mind/heart, I was right. (Well in truth, I WAS right...but that's not relevant to the story)
So for four days I chose to SHELVE THE ANGER...just not deal with it for the 4 days.
I figured I could always be mad again later...(sadly, this comforted me greatly at the time )
For four days, I did NOT see his negatives/irritating issues and I simply would NOT think about the future pain of his departure OR the past injuries I had been nursing...
No sarcasm from me (ME!!) and the negatives were simply STOPPED in their tracks and replaced with neutrals or positives. Like instead of thinking "H is a nerd and lecturing again" I saw his intelligence, and felt gratitude for what he was teaching d's.
I just saw him as positively as possible, for FOUR days...and after 2 days, it began to feel kind of true. I began to FEEL more love for him and less crap. HE also began to react differently.
The kids had a great time and I remember Palm Springs so fondly b/c of that.
Point is, we got a glimpse of what forgiveness might look like.
Someday maybe you guys can do that.
FOR NOW my story's point is the temporary part for you to focus on, the "for ONE WEEK" can you NOT say anything to her?For ONE WEEK, can you stop all this nonsense? It's really beneath you. AND it does validate her reasons for leaving. It makes you look abusive in her mind.
for SEVEN DAYS can you shelve the crazy interactions, completely, and only speak to SS
and NOT about her?
B/C you have to.
You want to look good in her eyes? I don't know if that's possible now. It might be someday after many more months of you NOT reacting to her.
This is a setback. But it reveals her too...she isn't indifferent to you but she is SO angry that I don't believe YOU can change that as much as space and time can...
So let her go. Don't look back for a chunk of time. Be with SS now and then or however you should, and pretend she's in the Austrailian outback.
You might even decide to date, I don't know.
But in time she will see you differently. That's a fact. When you step back and leave her alone,
you'll have a better chance. H was 3000 miles away and I missed him. We'd see each other now and then b/c he visited the girls.
Those times are when you'll show the continued 180s and still new you, and in between, you really will have a life so she will not matter as much.
Where the head goes, the heart will follow IF YOU LET It....
and stop trying to control how she sees you or your motivations.
Only time will change that IF IT IS POSSIBLE...remember in her mind, she is "righter" if your changes are either not real
or for the wrong reasons.
You can only prove they are real with time...and at some point saying you are only changing for "selfish" reasons will sound as goofy as it is.
But you arguing about it makes it worse.
Truly. I'd laugh at that b/c she's structuring it for failure. You cannot win with the way she sets it up.
So don't argue the point. It plays into her BS and at some level I think she's just frustrated that you are in fact a different man and she'll have to let go of the anger if that's true...
and she NEEDS that anger. She seems addicted to it.
Let her see how it consumes HER and NOT YOU...
by not engaging...
And please do NOT apologize again.
You've been over it. You owned it, you apologized for it, repeatedly, and you changed it.
Yet she still complains. Fact is she likes being angry. Makes her feel right.
She wants to be STUCK...inertia, victimhood, whatever...
She won't see that, maybe ever. But if she can, IF SHE CAN SEE IT, it'll be by you backing away.
I happen to think she loves you. But that does NOT mean you should be married.
You need to back off so she can see you in a way that feels safe and that means distance. Back off. GAL for real. DETACH DETACH and DETACH...
you know this. So do it.
Wow! I'm sure you have some very conflicted feelings right now. I know it can be cathartic to get everything out like that, but both of you said things that are going to be hard to 'take back'.
I hope you take 25's advice and drop the rope/go dark. I wrote a letter to my W a week and a half ago (in my thread) and haven't spoken to her or seen her since. In my case, with the ongoing OM and cake-eating, it was the best thing I could have done for myself. The darkness has be *so* helpful to me, I think it would do the same for you. SS complicates that a bit, but I'm sure you could come up with a solution that minimizes contact with W.
Denver,
Just wanted to let you know that I've been thinking about you all night and praying for you.
The kind of pain your feeling right now I wouldn't wish on anyone.
Just please, try to take this time to focus on you. I know, KNOW how hard that is to do when we're hurting.
I'd take away your pain if I could.
(((Hugs)))
And yes, I said way too much.
And yet, you do it anyway.
WORDS. So many words!
Starsky
Denver,
I am not going to go over everything that 25 said. For the most part I agree with her.
I do want to suggest that you really go back and read what your W said to you.
Then go back and read your threads. All of them.
Your W, was very honest and blunt about her thoughts and feelings. And she has every right to feel that way.
You are still trying to control her.
I get the boundary. I get it. No one wants to live committed to someone who isn't committed to them.
However, your hard line is one that is not serving you well right now. In reaching your goal of reconciliation as well in reaching forgivness.
You are NOT showing unconditional love right now. You are not showing the "new" Denver it doesn't seem.
I see impatience, frustration, anger, control, self pity, and I also see you making threats that I don't know if you want to keep.
You were wrong in going into her house. Gutty feeling or not. It is NOT your house, and you don't own her. You don't know what, if anything happened or didn't. You made assumptions and jumped to conclusions after you violated her right to privacy and security.
Just because she is married to you (I use the term loosely), that does not give you Carte Blanche access to her life. She is a human, not a possession, however, you keep treating her like one.
Think about what comes next, because you have a lot of work to do still...
Good luck.
Denver, what a rough couple of days man. Sorry you're going through all of this. I could be wrong, and others may correct me, but seems odd that she continues to engage in this. If she were really wanting to be "done" seems like she would just disappear. Not sure what that means, or what you want to do with it....but is OM really 19 years old? That might be fun but not really good prospects for a long term, stable R.
Also, sort of think cat04 has a point - you may some justifications for going to visit her house, which have some logic, but really you went there to have this confrontation with OM, right?
Here in this state, if you file and then do nothing for 6 months, it expires.
I don't want to get off topic here, so 25, if you want, you can reply in my thread. However, when you say "this state" I believe you mean CA, correct?
My L told me it takes 5 years for a D case to expire.
Are you sure about the 6 months?
Your W, was very honest and blunt about her thoughts and feelings. And she has every right to feel that way.
Yes, she does. And Denver has every right to say "And that doesn't work for me; sorry." Which he has done.
I get the boundary. I get it. No one wants to live committed to someone who isn't committed to them.
However, your hard line is one that is not serving you well right now. In reaching your goal of reconciliation as well in reaching forgivness.
You are NOT showing unconditional love right now. You are not showing the "new" Denver it doesn't seem.
So, you "get" the boundary, but not him enforcing it, is that it? That makes no sense.
I do agree that he was wrong to go into her house.
Look, Denver, this "passive-aggressive" thing ain't working, not one bit. Whether you choose "passive" or a more aggressive strong stance, PICK ONE, and for God's sakes,
STOP WITH THE CONVOS.Starsky
CS-I'l post to you on your thread and make sure I'm using the exact terminology.
Denver, I listed 3 options for you but I agree with cat in the sense that you were NOT entitled to enter her home...
THING IS FOLKS, and I'm asking...how can he make all these threats and then...if he's not going to pursue a div at least as a gesture...how's that affect the way she perceives his "words"? She said he's all show, no go.
And this proves it. He makes threats to scare or hurt and she is calling his bluff...if it is a bluff...that's going to hurt his cred big time. I;m not talking about pride but just his word. Denver you said it A LOT.
--btw THIS is why we don't advise people to make threats that one does not want to follow thru with.
Finally, maybe, this it just too much for Denver to accept. Only he decides that.
But this crazy kind of "communication: is not helpful.
But like Cat said...there's meaning, other than a ton of anger, in a lot of what she said.
keep us posted
In the last year, I've been more tuned into how life is a mirror reflecting us.
When my wife was less affectionate to me, I was less affectionate to her. Thing is, she was probably less affectionate to me because I was less affectionate to her... and so on.
We stress here that it is often important to "believe none of what you hear and only 50% of what we see."
25, I agree with you. The mirror is still reflecting. Denver, it is not what you said, it is what you do, that she will notice.
Say less, do more.
And remember that we do these things for US. Not for our M or R or spouses.
I just read everyone's posts to me. Thank you. I am soaking it all in, thinking, and resting. I will try to respond to some of the questions later. I do want to clarify one thing; OM is NOT 19 years old. That was a comment that I made to him as in 'be an adult' man... anyway, that is it for now.
Denver
For what it's worth, I think this incident could have illuminated a way out of Denver's personal hell.
As terrible as the whole evening has been at least it has brought some clarity to the situation. In addition to the awful pain, I imagine it must be a bit of relief to be done with the gaslighting.
Ms. Denver seems to have used her righteous anger to justify stringing Denver along and periodically abusing him. I can completely relate to why, on some level, Denver may feel that going along with that for awhile was a kind of amends he was making for his failures in the marriage. In my view that can be put to an end now.
Denver should not have gone into her space the way he did and no doubt she will focus on that in the short term to allay her guilt, but I don't think there's any doubt she knows she also has behaved badly here. In my opinion, every word Denver says now will just delay the day she puts her head in her hands and says 'what have I done?'.
I think he has two viable choices now. He can either confess right away that he didn't mean what he said, agree it was a major backslide, he was needy and controlling and he needs more time to sort himself out. In other words, be honest with her. Or, my preferred option, follow through. Stop talking, get the lawyers involved, be slow and deliberate and close the door. But don't lock it. Just as he said he would do. I think anything else comes off as manipulative.
I think if he leaves her alone, files, and solidifies himself, she may well come back. Just my take.
I empathise deeply with your situation Denver, I'll explain why when I have more time (in a criminal trial myself right now) and I'm wishing you the best.
Denver,
I won't add to the "you should have done this and you shouldn't have done that" comments; I'm pretty sure you know exactly what is what.
It's not hard to understand how anger between 2 people who feel betrayed by each other can escalate so fast in one conversation (or two, or three as in your case). But nobody won any of those rounds; you both lost.
IMHO, you both should back away from each other. Fast. Take your focus off of her and SS. Don't let her suck you into any more debates or arguments. Worrying about what she is doing, who she is seeing, etc. is like trying to push a rope up a hill.
Remind yourself that you are under a microscope; our spouses watch and analyze everything to determine if it is safe to come back.
THING IS FOLKS, and I'm asking...how can he make all these threats and then...if he's not going to pursue a div at least as a gesture...how's that affect the way she perceives his "words"? She said he's all show, no go.
And this proves it. He makes threats to scare or hurt and she is calling his bluff...if it is a bluff...that's going to hurt his cred big time. I;m not talking about pride but just his word.
Starsky
Denver,
All you "must" decide today, is what you're going to do, today.
IMHO you need to stop all contact. The ball is in your court. You have the control. If she texts you, no matter how crazy, don't respond. Let her wonder what your next move is. You told her you would file, so let her stew on that. You don't need to explain anything.
A few problems with not being LBS crazy anymore, is it's easy to tell someone NOT to be LBS crazy.
Why they shouldn't, the potential for damamge to themselves and others.
And no matter what happens Denver, if you stick around here and help others, you're going to warn others too and shake your head at them when they do the things you suggest they don't.
From my point of view alone, are you controlling?
I think so. Maybe not as bad as you were, but it is there.
If I believe that...even a little, it is multiplied in your wife. She expects it and is looking for it, and will assign that behaviour in places it doesn't even exist, just because it appears that way.
I cannot fault you for actions I took myself, so I won't. I'd ask others to recall their actions that if viewed now would have them shame-faced as well.
You did; it is done.
Many of the things can be described as heat of the moment words, on both your part and hers. Heat of the moment, anger and rage.
Not all of it...needs to be followed through, not all of it was logical.
How many days are left on your counter that you set up when you were logical?
When all this went down for me, I had a tough as nails no nonsense boss, who took me into her office, sat me down, and asked me what was going on. I burst into tears...like a five year old who skinned her knee.
It wasn't because I wasn't doing my job, but she knew something was going on. When I finished she told me, that her and her husband had gone through something similar.
"Everyone gets one big f-ck up, Jack. Now does that mean one night? Or one person until they wake up? Well that's up to you to determine."
That was over 5 years ago.
Its up to you to determine Denver.
To determine what 1 f-ck up means.
Own your part in what happened.
Did you break in?
Uhhh...yeah you did. Don't lawyer weasel out of the wording.
Would you have invited your SS out to breakfast if you hadn't wanted an excuse to get inside?
Own your part and actions Denver, no deflection and no Teflon.
Your conversation and texting.
Seems to me, she is calming down and looking to...I don't know be civil.
You have skills and advice.
You say you know things.
So...up to you.
I think if he leaves her alone, files, and solidifies himself, she may well come back. Just my take.
With the exception of filing, I agree with the Count.
Filing the paperwork, and Denver's, no offense, lack of patience are combination that I think will allow Denver to move forward that will only complicate this even further. My take is for Denver to finish out his self established deadline before really considering any filing.
Denver, I have been flying under the radar here dealing with my own turbulence. I will not belabor the other posts and I have little to add. For all of the mistakes you feel you made and relive during your personal replay, it is done and in the past, agonizing over the past solves nothing.
Own it, box it, put it on a shelf, and look forward.
Change is often chaotic and destructive. Change is inevitable. We cannot move on without it.
Denver I've read your "convos" and I gotta tell you son, your emotions are on a leash and guess who's at the other end.
From what I've read, you may have a controlling fault, but she's the one that's controlling you - emotionally - her words, her actions, her silence, her inaction. You gotta get off that bus man.
There's a huge internal conflict for you to wrestle with. You like to be in control of a situation, but how can you be when your feelings are beyond your own control?
You want to be objective, calculating, systematic, patient. You want to love another human being as an act of the will and not based on your feelings.
This is going to take time pal, not 75 days, not 90 days; I mean real time. She is nowhere near ready for you. Let that sink in and get off of her leash.
The sooner you get control of your own emotions, the sooner you will be able to regain control of your future plans.
I would not presume to advise you specifically about SS or OM or bounderies or filing for D or anything like that, because you will know what to do, once those emotions are no longer controlling you.
FWIW, I've had my own knock down drag outs with STBXW. I doesn't accomplish anything and actaully makes things worse. It confirms their re-write of history, their jusification for their sins, their longing to be free from us, everything the BITS are fighting.
Take care buddy; you'll be in my prayers.
Pickle
Just to be clear, I would not suggest filing but for the credibility issue not filing raises. It might be possible, given your somewhat shared view that the marriage certificate is just a piece of paper, to just walk away without filing and keep your credibility. If you think you can, I would recommend that option.
As far as the texting and the phone calls go, I can see how in the short term you might feel that the communication, poor as it is, is soothing you and the situation somehow. If you feel that way I would like to suggest you think hard about that. I know how hard it is and how strong the compulsion can be for us contollers to want as much data as we can get when we feel we're at a decision point. In my view absolutely nothing good can come from further contact with your wife right now. I hope you will stop and give both yourselves time to process what's happened here.
I think Jack's correct, re-set your clock to 90 days and take a series of deep, deep breathes.
I wish you well.
Denver:
So sorry all of this happened. The writing was kind of on the wall in a sense that she was playing you a bit. The one thing that I really want you to get from this is that, THIS IS NO LONGER THE WOMAN YOU MARRIED AND FELL IN LOVE WITH. What i mean by that, a number of people suggested that maybe she was still seeing OM and repeatedly , you shot down those suggestions.
" My w would never lie about that" or words to that effect. Im not saying this as an " I told you so" phrase. Just expect the unexpected when it comes to the WAS. I told you my W denied a hundred times there was no OM and even swore on her chilren's lives once.
NOw that the damage has been done, please listen to 25 and some of the other veterens. It is a setback but the ball is still in your court. She did some major tap dancing towards the end of your conversations, almost like she was in panic mode because you were SO DONE with the marriage this time.
Let her experience that and feel what it might be like for real to not have DENVER or the possiblity of not having Denver. Throught this whole thing, she knows she has you and simply has to ring a bell and you will be there in a heart beat.
Stop THIS. She is a little scared in my opinion that you are done with her and is now losing all the power that you gave her and continue to do.
BE calm, be patient, be dark.
Denver , you know my sitch. I could have reacted with anger on at least 2 occasions when OM was involved but I chose the high road and didnt say a word to him on one occasion. IT hurt like hell and some people see me as being weak but landing in jail is not going to help my kids or my sitch.
I know there is a lot of advice to digest. Just be smart ok,
Thinking alot about you buddy. All is not lost.
9
Wow. I am late to this thread. But Denver I am sorry for you going through this all. By the end of the convo it did look like your wife was not done yet. Somehow i do think you have the advantage. Thing is, do you wanna forgive her and see if you can take control here.
Take care man.
Man-o-Man!
Everyone here has hit you with bricks. I'm not.
I'm going to commend you on your boundary. Your NUT. You now have the high ground and the TRUE gift of time. Her words? It's all true, but she wouldn't have opened up and said them like this any other time until YOU busted it wide open. Yeah, you have to be careful about laws and your actions, but I can say without a doubt I would have done the EXACT same thing if I were in your shoes. I'm not condoning your bad behavior, but it happened and it's over with. I understand. Now what?
Sometimes, the most devastating catastrophes are what actually sparks true change.
Yeah, from "outside the forest" you screwed up, but F it. Brutal reality is we're human and hurt LBS's; and WE will F up. I think this needed to happen and it did happen for a reason.
My advice:
You laid out the boundary; now quit interacting with her. Take this gift of time to just disappear for awhile and let her wonder what you are going to do. Don't initiate anything yet. I agree with setting your countdown back to 90 and disappear for awhile. Any communication with her right now will be pointless and NOT good.
Something else to think about...put yourself in her shoes. You walked into her secret place and literally caught her eating cake while her other hand was up to her elbow in the cookie jar. Wouldn't you be pissed off too at being caught in such a humiliating moment? See a junkie shooting up and you take away their needle and RUIN their high? They are NOT going to be happy.
Give her and, most importantly, YOURSELF space and time. Let the dust settle. 90 days Denver.
Hi Denver,
Dude, so sorry for your sitch. I haven't posted in a while but wanted to lend my support to a fellow LBS.
This is hard, so hard. I will tell you what has worked for me in my sirch. I left her alone. One day back in November my W told the MC and I that she needed time. That she could not help me with my pain. That it was something I had to deal with on my own.
And I have not brought up the EA or OM since. Have I snooped? Or as J3B says, "trust but verify". Darn right I have. Checked her cell, email, keylogger, followed her, checked to make sure she was at work. I have done it all and she has never let me down or made me think that I have reason to doubt her committment to work on our M.
Which brings me to Denver. If I found what you have found (OM sleeping with W) during my snooping, I would have reacted the same.
No one here is pointing out the fact that there are consequences to bad behavior. SHE IS DOING THE WRONG THING! There is no denying that. It is NOT your fault that she is committing adultry! She can blame you all she wants. And she will. And I believe that you feel her actions are your fault. They are not!
Has she done hurtful things in her past? I'm sure she has. Should she be punished for it over and over? Of course not.
You are 100% right when you talk about not tolerating an open marriage. She IS being unreasonable when she expects you to wait for her while she F***s other men. Talk about cake eating, HOLY SH!T!!!
It's time to be the new Denver to someone new. Go out and date or just make some new female friends. You don't even know if your W is your best option at this point. She very well may not be. Time to open your eyes to new possibilities.
She has given you no choice IMHO...
Good luck brother...
I only have two words: no contact.
I didn't think everyone was tossing 2x4s so much as saying Nooooo as in, stop!
And that's where it is.
Except that he did say he'd file and it was over...A lot...so he has a choice to make about saying that so often.
Everyone seems to agree that no contact is mandatory.
Denver if you are taking a poll, that's how the numbers seem to add up.
But in the end, it't your life.
So Denver I have been reading along for most of the day just taking in all the wise people on this board. You are truly blessed to have such great support. I have my own take and although I can pull from a lot of the post that have already spoken I will add my own words to the mix.
Where do I begin?
I am not going to accuse you of doing something I have thought about doing on many occassions so there is no reason to harp on it.
You know somehow as LBS we are suppose to put on the happy face we are suppose to smile to be the better person and accept things as they are. My question then is.......To what end? Do you lose yourself in the process? Do you put aside your morals and principles in order to achieve your goal? Is that a happy M?
Assuming you do save your M those feelings you've had to suppress for so long do they disappear?
TBH I would have clocked the guy.
Not the right answer I know but that would have been my reaction. I think you handled yourself well.
The whole argument about going over to her house……….
Well I am not sold on that.
It is like a cop walking into a house seeing a dead body but he can't say anything because he had no warrant or the evidence was attained illegally. Does that eliminate the dead body?
Your W has been cake eating.
She has said one thing and done another.
AND
She knows exactly what she is doing.
DB has saved my sanity and the support and friendships I have gained because of this site will last a life time to me but I don’t think DB and having a boundary you will not cross should work against each other.
50% of M ends in D. Does that mean that the other 50% don't have any problems? That is insane. Of course they do. So why does one set make it and the other doesn't? Value system maybe?
You talk about unconditional love. Actually you were one of first posters that I read talk about what it meant?
Does that mean you lay down on the tracks as she drives over you?
If a woman who is constantly beaten in a R not allowed to leave because then she will be accused of not having unconditional love? Is lying and infidelity any different?
No some can come on and say "you don't know what was going on so it is pointless to guess" yes I suppose this is true since you don't have a video camera but common sense has to come into play here at some point.
IMHO I say it is time to cut the rope forget dropping it burn it and walk away. No threats no talk only action.
DO NOT FILE FOR A D unless you are serious and you are not serious at least not yet. Give this time to sink in your head.
Speak when you are angry and you will make the best speech you'll ever regret.
Look I have followed you since day one.
I'll be the first to tell you.
You were an A-hole same as me in the M.
Ok
Nothing you can do about that you have owned it.
Now does that mean that your W should come running to you with joy?
No.
But this is another layer or manipulation that you will have to deal with or not. Only you can decide that.
She has you on a string and she knows it so is time for Denver to take back control here and this is the perfect chance to do it. You have been given a very good chance to STOP chasing and move away.
The count said it best. My opinion mirrors his. I think she will panic when you leave I think she will be shocked that you have taken back control and that she has lost it.
At this point YOU can decide if you want to save this thing or NOT.
But
If you do, do it for the right reasons. Neither one of you is ready for any kind of R/M right now because neither one has healed and she has not dealt with her issues.
I know I know she is perfect and she did everything right. They all were. We are the monsters here. BS my man BS!
You want to know why she is pi$$ed!!! It has nothing to do with the fact that you went to her house. She is pi$$ed because she got caught. Plain and Simple…………
I am soooooooooooooooooooooo against D that it is crazy but you know what I am also against emotional abuse and this is exactly what this has turned out to be.
Enough is Enough.
Restore some personal pride because at the end of the day you have to be able to look yourself in the mirror and she will never respect you if you keep dragging yourself through the floor for her.
BOTH parties contributed here not one.
My brother and SIL have been together for 40yrs and M for over 30yrs. I can write a book about his indiscretions throughout the M. Still going strong!! You know why? Commitment……
Your W is not in a fog any more than I am a saint but she has taken advantage of the sitch to benefit her.
Is she hurt? You bet
Does she have a right to be? You bet
Can she trust you overnight? No
Does this excuse her actions? NO
It is easy to put all the blame on you and it is easy for you to take it.
What is your line in the sand Denver?
Can you stick to it?
Only you can answer those questions buddy.
I am not here to inflame the sitch Denver and most of this post will prob get edited but where is the chapter when it is ok for us NOT to lay down and take a beaten?
People will say only if you allow it to be 2step.
Yeah sure.....Except that you did not allow OM to be at her place and once the anger wore off that is when you felt the pain. That is when you hurt.
You can't shut down emotions and if anyone can I hope they can show me how.
Any decision you make right now will be based on anger and that is no way to make decisions. I say give yourself a few weeks to decide how to proceed but in the meantime you need to back away A LOT.
If she reaches out to you, and SHE WILL don’t’ answer. She will text next. A simple response will do…..
“W. I need some time to sort it out. I am sorry you feel the way you do about me but nothing I can do. Now it is time for me to make some decisions. In the meantime I need time and space”
She will fight, she will scream she will accuse and god knows what else. Guess what…
NOT YOUR PROBLEM!!
If you do not establish some level of control here and allow yourself some time to heal this will escalate and things will turn south in a hurry!!
2step
Wow! Pretty intense stuff.
Any decision you make right now will be based on anger and that is no way to make decisions. I say give yourself a few weeks to decide how to proceed but in the meantime you need to back away A LOT.
If she reaches out to you, and SHE WILL don’t’ answer. She will text next. A simple response will do…..
“W. I need some time to sort it out. I am sorry you feel the way you do about me but nothing I can do. Now it is time for me to make some decisions. In the meantime I need time and space”
I like this. ^^^
A LOT.Starsky
I think every man should read what 2Step wrote. Especially those of us that have "lost" our spouses to OM. That was one hell of a post and there is something in there for everyone. I am sick of losing my self respect and licking up crumbs and literally HATE to see others do it.
I needed that post!
I am not here to inflame the sitch Denver and most of this post will prob get edited but where is the chapter when it is ok for us NOT to lay down and take a beaten?
DR pg(s): 103;124;175;215;225;230...
Thanks Jack, I think it's important for *all* of us to realize that saving our M is secondary, we have to save *ourselves* first. Put your own breathing mask before your seatmates...
I am sick of losing my self respect and licking up crumbs and literally HATE to see others do it.
self respect is determined by your wife's actions?
Not arguing with you.
I just don't agree with you.
My loss of self respect would have come from my actions. Not from my wife's choice of a duchebag lover.
This
choice to try your best to save a marriage, this is the worse part of: "for better or worse."
Better is a piece of cake.
But don't ever compare your self worth to your wife's horrible choices.
Your self esteem and worth should be a bit battered because of what you own up to in your part of your marriage failing, but not from her choices. Not as long as you're addressing your failings.
I want to thank everyone who took the time to read my last update and especially those who sent me words of support and advice. I know that to do that took a lot of time and thoughtfulness.
I'm going to respond to some of the things that stood out to me. I apologize if I don't respond to your post specifically. There is lots of good stuff here.
First, I want to clarify that OM is not 19 years old. It was a smarta$$ comment I made to OM when confronting him to say 'grow up and be an adult'.
Second, I do not regret what I did yesterday. I know there were a few of you who pointed out that I had no right to go into her personal space. I get that and I agree. But I don't regret it. I was actually very careful to avoid violating any laws, at least technically. Yes, it was a violation of her personal space, but she has violated our M. Justified? I don't know. But it provided me with information that I needed and was not getting from her... at least not in a straight forward way.
Third, W tried to suggest that she did not have sex with OM, and I think it was Cat who said that I assumed a lot based on what I found. I do not completely discount the possibility that he stayed the night and they did not have sex. Of course that is possible. But for me, it really doesn't matter. OM stayed the night. I'm not going to try and minimize this knowledge by saying, 'oh well, maybe nothing happened'. It simply doesn't matter. If it didn't that night, it will on another, or maybe it did last week while I was out of town. I think that it's safe to assume that her PA will resume if it hasn't already.
Fourth, I do not regret confronting OM. In fact, this was an opportunity that I never thought I'd have. Whether or not my M reconciles, I will always know that I got to say my peace to him. And I will always remember the pathetic look on his face and he sat on that toilet and listened to me lecture him like a child. My W can be p!ssed at me all that she wants for this as well. She will either get over it and recognize that she would have done the same thing most likely, which I told her yesterday without response, or she won't get over it. In which case, she can have OM and I am better off.
Fifth, thanks to all of those who said that I handled it well. I think that I did. You never know how you will respond to a situation such as this until you are actually in it. I guess my handling of it can somewhat be credited to the many times that I imagined what I would do if I had this confrontation. So I was prepared. Did I want to clock him or kick him off the toilet and beat the living sh!t out of him? Yes. It briefly crossed my mind too. And I might have had he been even remotely aggressive or defensive with me. He was just pathetic.
So, with all of that said, here are some specific responses:
Based on the end of the convo, clearly your W is not done.
You said over and over that you are, but TBH, I don't buy it.
You said all of this just happened today.
Take some real time and think about it.
I think that you are right Country. W is not done. I felt some real concern on her part that I was serious about being done.
Me? I don't know yet. I felt done yesterday, but was beginning to soften even as the day wore on. I go back and forth today. I am going to follow the advice that you and others have given me to give it some time.
Sometimes we have to have these kinds of conversations to move forward - in either direction. It's ok, you did well.
Thank you Calystra. Your words struck me. I think that this is very true. I had another friend tell me:
"What happened had to happen. The puss must come out of a wound before it can heal."
I think that this is along those same lines.
Just wanted to let you know that I've been thinking about you all night and praying for you.
The kind of pain your feeling right now I wouldn't wish on anyone.
Just please, try to take this time to focus on you. I know, KNOW how hard that is to do when we're hurting.
I'd take away your pain if I could.
(((Hugs)))
DG - Your post made me cry. Not sure why. Thank you so much for caring.
I do want to suggest that you really go back and read what your W said to you.
Then go back and read your threads. All of them.
Your W, was very honest and blunt about her thoughts and feelings. And she has every right to feel that way.
You are still trying to control her.
Cat, I know that I have spoken of loving my W unconditionally on a number of occasions. I do love her, still do. And ultimately, I want her to be happy. With or without me. Am I trying to control her? I don't think so Cat. I am simply saying to her that I will not be in an open M. Here's the deal. She wants to take time and space. Okay I'm fine with that. She wants to continue to have me in her life to some degree. She wants to do things together occasionally. BUT, she wants to date OM. I'm not okay with that. I can't do it. I told her this yesterday and failed to mention it in my update. It was part of the telephone conversation.
W said, "you are focusing so much on OM and I don't understand why"
Me: "I don't care about OM. He doesn't matter. It wouldn't matter if it were some other guy. I can't continue to be in your life knowing that you are dating anyone. It is too painful for me. It is not about OM, it is about you. The idea of YOU being with someone else is too painful for me. And it's because I love you so much that I can't stand the idea of it. I can't do it W."
Basically what I'm saying is that this is too painful for me. I'm not trying to control her, I'm just saying that I'm removing myself from the equation. This is the same thing that I told W yesterday when she was accusing me of trying to control her. I guess I can see why it is being perceived by W like this, but it is simply me protecting myself from pain that I can bear.
You are NOT showing unconditional love right now. You are not showing the "new" Denver it doesn't seem.
Hmmm... I guess that I don't see unconditional love to mean that I let myself be kicked in the head over and over Cat. I mean, what if this went on for 5 years and I put up with it for that long, showing W unconditional love? Would I be wrong at that point to say enough is enough? That I have gone through enough pain and can't do it anymore.
I see it as I am giving her what she wants, space, time and freedom to do whatever it is she wants. I'm not saying that I don't love her bc of it. I'm simply saying that I need to protect myself.
I'm not trying to argue with what you are saying Cat. I admit that I am lost here. I hurt and I feel that the pain of W having OM in her life is too much. At least too much to remain as an active part of her life.
I see impatience, frustration, anger, control, self pity, and I also see you making threats that I don't know if you want to keep.
I said that I would be filing for a D once or twice yesterday. I regretted saying those words before I even posted my update yesterday bc I know that I pained myself into a corner. I'm not sure how I'm going to handle that, but I do know that I'm going to take some time before I do anything. My threat to remove myself from the equation? From her life for now? I absolutely mean that. I don't want any part of what she is doing now.
Impatience, frustration, anger, self pity??? Yes to all of it. I know. But the OM is just a factor that I cannot deal with. I won't. Yes my emotions are getting the better of me. But I can't deny them either.
were wrong in going into her house. Gutty feeling or not. It is NOT your house, and you don't own her. You don't know what, if anything happened or didn't. You made assumptions and jumped to conclusions after you violated her right to privacy and security.
I know that it was wrong. Like I said above, I don't regret it though. It was something that I needed to do. Assumptions and conclusions? Really Cat? Do you really think that I should hang my hat on the idea that NOTHING happened? I don't.
I'm sorry, I'm just frustrated. There is no clear answer to any of this and as I said, I'm lost right now.
Cat, thank you again for taking the time to keep up with me. I am obviously frustrated.
IMHO you need to stop all contact. The ball is in your court. You have the control. If she texts you, no matter how crazy, don't respond. Let her wonder what your next move is. You told her you would file, so let her stew on that. You don't need to explain anything.
Control Bond? Not sure how I have control right now or how the ball is in my court. Either way, I am leaning towards letting her stew and wonder what my next move is.
Let her experience that and feel what it might be like for real to not have DENVER or the possiblity of not having Denver.
She is a little scared in my opinion that you are done with her and is now losing all the power that you gave her and continue to do.
BE calm, be patient, be dark.
And this. My W needs to feel what life will be like without the 'new' Denver. The Denver that has been loving, attentive and caring for the past 3 months. I am shutting the gates to that Denver.
Everyone here has hit you with bricks. I'm not. I'm going to commend you on your boundary. Your NUT.
Thanks Faith. I think that it was time for me. You and some others have encouraged me to do this for some time now. I didn't think that it was quite time. What happened yesterday, IMO, gives me the 'right' to now be p!ssed and to stand up for myself. Bc it can no longer be justified by how I was in the M. Like I told my W yesterday, in February, when W told me about her A, I swallowed my pride, put my ego aside, recognized my role in causing that A, and made the decision to move on. This renewed A is not justified, it is cake eating. It is W taking advantage of knowing that I love her and want her to come back. It is W deciding that she is going to take advantage of the fact that we are still separated... take advantage by 'taking' while she can... to live her life for herself while she can.
I believe in my heart of hearts that W knows, or at least knew up until yesterday, that she was ultimately going to come back to our M. But I think that she decided that she would use this time that we are still separated as a kind of vacation that she may never get again. A vacation from the responsibilities of being a W... of being committed... of not being able to do whatever the F she wants to do.
That is NOT excusable in my book. It just isn't. Yes, I F'd our M up. I am at least 80% responsible for it. I recognize it, I own it, and I have apologized a million times for it. AND, I also recognize that W isn't going to heal from it overnight. But like I told her yesterday, she does NOT need to date OMs to process her feelings, her hurt and her emotions. Please correct me if I am wrong.
You now have the high ground and the TRUE gift of time.
Can you elaborate Faith? I don't see how I have the advantage here. The high ground? Do I? Is that different than having control or having the ball in my court?
Her words? It's all true, but she wouldn't have opened up and said them like this any other time until YOU busted it wide open.
Yes. As my friend said, the puss must come out of the wound before it can heal. My W's wounds sure have a lot of puss though.
Yeah, you have to be careful about laws and your actions, but I can say without a doubt I would have done the EXACT same thing if I were in your shoes. I'm not condoning your bad behavior, but it happened and it's over with. I understand. Now what?
I think that many, if not most, people would have done exactly what I did yesterday. I do not regret it and I would do it again if I had to repeat yesterday. Laws and my actions? I tried to be as careful as I could, but hell, I wouldn't regret it even had my W called the cops... even had I been charged with trespassing or harassment of OM (neither of which I believe that I am technically guilty of BTW)... It would have been worth it to me. Sorry. That is just how I feel.
I think this needed to happen and it did happen for a reason.
I think so too Faith.
My advice:
You laid out the boundary; now quit interacting with her. Take this gift of time to just disappear for awhile and let her wonder what you are going to do. Don't initiate anything yet. I agree with setting your countdown back to 90 and disappear for awhile. Any communication with her right now will be pointless and NOT good.
Something else to think about...put yourself in her shoes. You walked into her secret place and literally caught her eating cake while her other hand was up to her elbow in the cookie jar. Wouldn't you be pissed off too at being caught in such a humiliating moment? See a junkie shooting up and you take away their needle and RUIN their high? They are NOT going to be happy.
Give her and, most importantly, YOURSELF space and time. Let the dust settle. 90 days Denver.
That is my plan Faith. Even as I am responding to all of these posts, it is becoming more clear to me.
I have to admit that I am strongly considering this as well. I have done my best to be the better person for 6 months. To stand for my M through hell and high water. I'm beginning to feel more and more that it is time for me to begin to look out for myself and my own happiness.
BITS
Denver
W: "And if I just take space and don't see anyone else?"
She ain't done.
Are you?
Denver been worried about you while there was silence here for about a week.
Go back and read what was posted to you before you took sabatical.
What sparked this? What MADE you go by her house?
Now?
You set a boundary. Don't be a paper tiger. Enforce it the same way you lived your promise to be patient and give her space and live your life.
It is easier to enforce than to embrace.
Easier to run than admit your own shortcomings.
What promises did you make to yourself here?
F@ck your W right now.
This has always been YOUR journey. YOUR changes.
YOU man. You let it be about her and her choices again. Couldn't let go of that? We have all been there.
Dust yourself off.
YOUR self respect did not spring from confronting a f@cking coward on a toilet.
Remember THAT guy. Cause he is going to run your life.
And ruin your life.
IF you let someone elses actions make YOUR choices for you.
What does Denver do from here?
There is a man at the counter selling one way tickets to Bitterville. There is a seat with your name on it and in it you will find anger, denial, regret, self punishment, self loathing...
and three people in this f@cked up world that deserve better.
Character is not what you can convince her to believe about you Denver.
It is who you are when the lights go out at night and there is no one there but you.
I am sick of losing my self respect and licking up crumbs and literally HATE to see others do it.
self respect is determined by your wife's actions?
Not arguing with you.
I just don't agree with you.
My loss of self respect would have come from my actions. Not from my wife's choice of a duchebag lover.
This
choice to try your best to save a marriage, this is the worse part of: "for better or worse."
Better is a piece of cake.
But don't ever compare your self worth to your wife's horrible choices.
Your self esteem and worth should be a bit battered because of what you own up to in your part of your marriage failing, but not from her choices. Not as long as you're addressing your failings.
I never said that my self respect is determined by STBX's actions and it's not. My actions ate at my self respect. No matter what she did, I kept trying harder and harder. She was literally doing every thing she could to destroy our marriage and our family and I just kept trying to make it better.
I forgave myself a long time ago for my failings in the marriage. I more than made up for them with Herculean efforts over the last 5 years.
What I meant by my comments was that I lost some respect for myself in that it was like she could do anything, and it would be just fine with me - as long as she came home some day. But....I quit a couple weeks ago and ever since then I feel so much better.
You would have to read all my threads to understand this...but I never had a chance. STBX had a carefully laid out plan from day one and there was nothing I could do to combat it and save my marriage.
But....I did save BTM!
Sorry about the thread hijack. I had to make all that clear to anyone who was so moved by some of the posts on this thread.
It is as good a thread as any, and beter than most, what with all the traffic : )
What I meant by my comments was that I lost some respect for myself in that it was like she could do anything, and it would be just fine with me - as long as she came home some day.
In that I agree.
Taking them back at any price? Is not worth the price.
You now have the high ground and the TRUE gift of time.
Can you elaborate Faith? I don't see how I have the advantage here. The high ground? Do I? Is that different than having control or having the ball in my court?
You can only control yourself. Period. Ball has always been in your court. It never left. You could pass the ball to her, but right now she just wouldn't catch it and it would probably roll right on by and your stuck having to go pick it up again. If she did pick it up or catch at all, she probably throw it for you to fetch it or chuck it at you like she was playing dodgeball.
High Ground - I see you always looking up from a low position. All your hard work Denver, all of it, even if it was partly for her to notice, will still be the new you that YOU must achieve and maintain for the rest of your life. With or without her. You have the high ground because when you stand on a hill or a mountain and really look at the view of the surrounding areas, things look much differently now. You can see so much, reality is in your face. You can see where you want to go from here, or you could walk right back down the same path that got you there. Before you were just climbing hoping to see something along the way that would change this sitch and become better.
My point? Stay on the high ground and watch, don't make a move, just take it all in and come to a place where you can make a rational decision. Before you move on or forward, take in the view, because how you proceed from this "Revelation" is now completely your choice.
What happens after a nasty wild fire destroys thousands of acres? New growth.
This choice to try your best to save a marriage, this is the worse part of: "for better or worse."
I have told myself this over and over during the past 6 months Jack. At what point do we need to begin to look out for ourselves though? Yes this has been the 'worse' part of my M vows. And I have hung in there. But what happens when your W just takes advantage of you sticking with her through the 'worse'? I'm struggling with this right now.
Denver - We should be looking out for ourselves from day one - and if we also manage to save our marriages, great. STBX took advantage of me sticking with her for so long it almost destroyed me. She literally broke me down. But when I reached the point of being broken, I somehow managed to start building myself back up - and not in her image. There is a point at which we all need to "quit" as I call it and let our spouses live the life they have chosen and quite often really, really worked to get to. I truly believe that in hindsight, we will all see that we waited too long. But...it will let us sleep easier than knowing we didn't wait long enough. We won't have to live with the guilt our WAS do.
Denver:
I have thought long and hard about your sitch. What is it that you really want right now? I'll bet you cant really answer that with 100% certainty at the moment. Ill bet you fluctuate from one moment to the next.
So I believe, for the time being, DONT make any final decisions right now. 2steps post was awesome. When I got back on this site, you and 2step seemed to dominate the board; in a good way.
Look at all the people that have responded to you Denver. There is no question that you are a very likeable person that will do well one way or another.
If I can mirror your sitch a little. What do I want most , and I am calm right now. I want my Wife back and my family together , but its not that simple. I dont want that at the cost of my self respect and self worth. Before all this crap happened, I was positive I could never accept an affair and a continued relationship with my W and even entertain the thought of accepting her back.
The bottom line is that we get one life to live. Many people have advised me to move on and I will, When I CANT take it anymore. When she crosses that line where I can NEVER forgive her. Because, we have the rest of our lives to heal from this and to have a great, not good , but great life with our Children and all that goes with it. Thats why IM still entertaining the thought of starting a new R with my W.
Dont let ANYONE tell you different. ONly YOU can tell when you are being a doormat or when you are standing up for what you believe in. As I mentioned earlier, one thing you know for sure now is that your NEW wife is capable of lying to you about her affair. YOu would not accept that before.
YOu have some real tough decisions to make in the future. NOt the near future because they would be based on emotion and hurt.
Take some real time and decide which way you want to go and ONLY YOU can make that final choice. There is a great deal of good advice here. Sift through it and make the right choice for you.
And even then, it may not be the final choice because life is always changing.
All the best my friend. Im thinking about you alot.
9
Update...
So... Today was a
landmark day/event in my sitch. This will be a long update. I really would appreciate whoever sticks around to read it all. It is somewhat comical... but mostly horrific.
Bottom line? I am done. Barring a miracle, my marriage is over.
Denver, first off, all is not lost, necessarily.
I read it all. I did laugh...fwiw...( cough cough) ahem...
The text conversation and phone conversation UNTIL the end, pretty much was batshit stuff and you know it.
You may have been calm on the phone but the problem was that you were ON the phone at all...you know this already of course...
[color:#FF0000]
Here's the deal...I'll post about the end of the convo but I'm concerned about your repeated statements that you would file b/c you "have no choice" AND you must if you are "self respecting". Sort of paints you into a corner. In a way, how can you NOT file, something?
Are there legal seps there? Can you file a warning letter or something less than div? AND don't forget, here, only 1/3 of divorces filed are ever finalized...
The bad news is, that sometimes I think she has you by the ba!!s and NOT
in an attractive way. That can help a situation when you are compensating
and doing 180s but at some point it has to equalize out. She KNOWS she's abusing you...and she continues...enough already.
Sorry but it's just my first impression. YES I know you were a horrible evil troll to her
and she was the perfect wife, always, (here's a tiny dose of reality-
having a batshit son isn't easy, and it's NOT attractive to a lot of men, nor are there many who want the chance to father HIM.
THIS she will learn soon, if she doesn't already know it..)...
She has baggage most men won't deal with unless she's the hottest babe around AND OR has some serious money. AND Or unless they're losers. I dated a bit when h was gone for 2 years and have to say I was quickly guarded with younger men who seemed to want "a cougar with money" (God, I hope that doesn't sound as weird reading it as it is to write it)
But as the w of a doctor and a L myself, I was surprised at how many blatant users are out there. Young men looking for a mommy figure or a place to live with benefits. Not some great love or even great sex (no, I didn't but I have friends who did) and so, I just don't think reality and time on her own, is bad for your cause. UNLESS YOU KEEP FIGHTING...
[/color]
Call it intuition or whatever you like, but I had a nagging feeling last night that W was with OM. I broke a cardinal rule and did a drive by of her house.
Denver, Denver, Denver....you big goof ball...I'm not even going to comment about ^^^^that... b/c that's how goofy this ^^^ stuff is.
I walked past him and went straight up the stairs to W's bedroom door. It was locked.
Let's hope she doesn't file charges...tell me your name is on the deed???
Fortunately, it was very easy to unlock from the outside. It took me literally 3 seconds.
Ahhhh nooooo..... Sorry YOUR HONOR,- NOT GUILTY B/C DENVER WAS CRAZY...
I realized that I hadn't checked the toilet room. You know that 4' x 4' room where you go to take a cr*p.
I checked the door and it was locked. Again, easy as pie to open. AND there he was...
OM sitting on the toilet, underwear down at his ankles in the dark. YOUR HONOR...NOT GUILTY--DENVER had to go to the bathroom...and didn't know it was occupied...
Me: 'wow... what an a**hole you are' Literally...OM: 'ugh, uh... I'm sorry, I'm sorry'
Indeed you are...a sorry OM....
Me: 'Man, you are destroying a marriage, a family...
why don't you be a man and do what is right?'OM: 'I know, I know, I'm sorry. I will leave right now'
Me: '
No, I don't give a sh!t if you leave.
But why don't you be a man about all of this? You may think that you are in love with my wife, but she is still my wife. And do you know what you are doing to that little boy in the other room?'
Just to chime in for the fun of it, you DO know this ^^^ doesn't even make sense, right? I mean logically, it's batshit. You want him out, but then you say you don't give a sh44 and want him to "man up"-- whatever that means to guys on the toilet...
OM: 'I know. I will.'
Me: 'You will what? How old are you man, 19?
[b] Do what's right.'[/b]
OM: 'I will starting now. I promise.'
I walked away at the point. .. I drove SS to my house.
I sent W a text message as soon as we got there.
Nooooooooo
...
blah blah blah blah blah back and forth ANGER ANGER ANGER (STOMPING FEET
HERE BELOW are the gems among the rocks...
W: "
I told you that I need space and time to figure things out. Don't you understand that?"
translation...I want a way out of this lose lose conversation...but I'm too proud and angry to back down, and have no tools for handling those issues.
Me: "I understand space and time. And W, I'd give you all of the time in the world to figure it out."
W: "Oh, but not if I date other people?!"
Me: "No, that is where my boundary is. I am not okay with that. I will not live in an open marriage. I do not think that you need to date OP to sort through things. It's been 6 months and I haven't."
This sounds like a negotiation. Did she KNOW these terms?
W
: "So what are you asking me to do?"
Me: "I'm not asking you for anything.
I don't want anything from you. I'm not trying to convince you of anything and
I'm not trying to get you to do anything. I am moving on with my life. I don't want anything from you at this point. I'm shutting the door on our marriage."
---------
-YIKES...SHE JUST ASKED YOU WHAT SHE COULD DO....AND YOU SAID NOTHING, AS YOU ARE "SHUTTING THE DOOR"...(sigh)
W: "I always wanted to be loved by you. And now you want to give that to me and it p!sses me off. After all of the years that I tried, it p!ssed me off that it has taken this to get you to want that."
W: "And I still don't believe it. I think that if I hadn't left you and someone else hadn't caught my attention that you'd still be sleeping on the couch and getting upset with me everytime I did any little thing that you don't approve of.'
SHE'S DARING YOU TO KEEP TREATING HER RIGHT AND PROVE YOU'RE FOR REAL...BUT she's also wanting to cake eat...and abuse you some more.
Me: "No, that would not happen again. I have learned too much"
W: "CAn't you see why I'm afraid?"
WANTS REASSURANCE FROM YOU...HAS SHIFTED THE WHOLE CONVERSATION TO HER TERMS & WHAT SHE WANTS FROM YOU...this used to be what you wanted...right?
Me: "yes. I understand completely why you are afraid."
Me: "I'm not mad. I'm sad.
I'm sad that this is the end of our M."
OF COURSE YOU ARE ANGRY...YOUR PRIDE/EGO WAS HURT, AND SO, YOU ARE ENDING THE Marriage... YOU ACTED/TEXTED WITHOUT THINKING. YOU REACTED...bummer.
EVEN THOUGH SHE IS SAYING 'WHAT CAN I DO'? AND 'DON'T YOU SEE WHY I AM AFRAID?"
But in fairness Denver,
you DO have the right to draw your line in the sand.
We all have them and sometimes we don't know where they are until they've been crossed.
We have to look within and shelve the ego and pride and honestly assess whether we can forgive something or even just handle it. (As an example If my h were ever in an A with a sister of mine for instance, I'd drop the m. That's something I could not deal with -unless he had a brain tumor, ya know?)...
So you have to ask yourself, "Can I live with THIS behavior even if it is over? (Is it over??) Is this something I can forgive and forget?" And if the answer is "no", (I don't think this is anti DBing but it might be but here it goes...)
if the answer is no, then maybe we owe it to ourselves AND our spouses, to let them go.
If we know we cannot forgive something, then having a restored happy m, isn't going to ever happen. What's the point then?
Maybe if there are young kids and you don't mind a platonic sham marriage...and some can pull it off.
But otherwise, IF we're going to make them miserable holding it over their head forever or every time we fight throwing it into their faces, and we know this...And we'll always get that sick to the stomach feeling when they're "working late" or get a text...and we won't "work on it"
b/c it's simply something we know we lack in our genes to cope with, THEN YES, it's over...
W: "And if I just take space and don't see anyone else?"
She's negotiating/asking you for the terms of the R...
Me: "Um, I don't know. I suppose that if you came to me and said that, I would have something to think about. But again, I'm not asking you for anything. As far as I'm concerned, I am moving on."
You better have meant that b/c if you didn't, then you just shut a door she had opened...She was thinking about offering you those terms or at least probing, and she would have had to swallow her pride to agree then and there...but YOU stopped it so she could not. .
I ended the convo. "well, I'm going to go. you are not saying anything."
IMO, just my gut, the translation here is -That's you telling her you want an apology and a promise and a new R, and then her not being able to comply...
W: "Okay. Bye."
Me: "Bye"
Obviously, today, You guys lacked good communication skills and that's putting it mildly. Couples need to be able to fight fair or walk away. These types of fights leave wounds that sometimes cannot heal. Was this typical of old behavior?
Too bad you continued to threaten and then she dared you to follow through and you insisted that you WILL folllow through and you explain you "have to" b/c you "have no choice" b/c she is making you do this...
and the thing is Denver, a part of me agrees...meaning, you have painted yourself into a corner with the insistent threat/promise/declaration that it was over now. I know that I said that I would be filing for a D a couple of times. I regretted making that statement to W before I even posted my update. My other statements of being done were more around removing myself from the equation... refusing to agree to live in an open marriage.
Am I painted into a corner with the D thing? I don't know. I will probably lose credibility if I don't file. I'm not sure what happens here in Colorado if I just file and leave it sitting out there. I'm not sure if the court forces a disposition or not. I need to check. I thought that was a good idea if it will work here.
As for me being serious about removing myself from the equation goes, I am serious about that. I don't want to be a part of my W's life if she is with OM, or any OM for that matter. It is too painful for me, and I think that it allows my W to cake eat. I don't see how it helps me to be around her under these circumstances.
SO my question is two fold.
First, is it over? I mean we know you love her, but seriously it might be over for you if this is something that just crossed the line too much for you.
I honestly don't know at this point. I guess that I need time and space myself to figure that out.
If my h were with a 19 y/o,
Just want to clarify. OM is not 19. He is 34 or 35. That was just a comment that I made.
File, then forget about it, and act as if and I mean ACT AS IF in the zero backsliding ways.
No more fighting, no more R talk or even overt effort...just you pleasantly moving on and staying involved in SS life, big time
He's your way back to her you know...
I know that he is. He is how I got to where I was in February and March. Staying in his life.
So you are saying that I should file, let the process sit (if possible here), and completely remove myself from W's life? But stay in SS's life.
OR you somehow explain why you are not filing but you would have to do that in a way that doesn't make you look weak or indecisive or as if you were simply angry and trying to control her...
which you were/are...
But if you do nothing, then....idk...well, then what?
I don't know. What I do know is that I am removing myself from W's life. I don't know about filing for D... at this time. Explain that I'm not filing? I don't know how I do that and not lose credibility. Plus, I have a feeling that W and I are going to go through a fairly long period of time with no contact.
Can Denver say (about 39 times) he's "done" "moving on" and have her dare him to do it (about 53 times) and him insisting "This is it! She "crossed a line and it's over!" and then do nothing, without losing all his credibility?
Probably not.
Your goal is not saving your marriage "at all costs"...isn't it having a restored marriage with healthy boundaries...?
Yes. And I don't see any other way to get there than to go through this. Being around for W, helping her with things, taking her to do fun stuff... it simply wasn't getting me anywhere. She is taking advantage of it. She has the best of both worlds with what I was doing.
Oh, and NO MORE of these furious conversations!! So much anger that even the end comments were almost not worth it...were they?
I don't know. I think that we had to go through that yesterday. Or, at least she did. I don't think that I was 'furious' at all. I think that I stayed pretty calm and refrained from name calling the whole time. Did you see it differently?
I guess she was dishonest with you. But I'm not clear on what you were thinking she was doing all this time...being like you were?
But she wasn't...she wanted to date. She's not the type of woman (with that son), to be able to be alone for any real amount of time. She's the type of woman who needs a man around. A source of affection and fun to give her a break, in the ceaseless demands of son.
That's the part that I think that she was dishonest about. She told me 'I don't want to date anyone right now'. Yes, I hung my hat on that comment. My bad. But IMO, it was a lie to keep me from walking.
Is it b/c the "A" before, was a fait accompli when you found out way back when, whereas now, it's NOW and that's what you cannot abide by?
Correct? I get that.
Yes, it is because it was fait accompli that I was able to move beyond it before. The fact that it is happening NOW, after she and I have spent so much time together over the past 3 months, is why I cannot abide by it. I don't know what else to say. It is destroying me emotionally. I have to remove myself from it.
But healthy boundaries, and pride based punishments often have a fine line between them...So, you have a choice to make.
[/b]
1. Can you file and push the pedal to the floor, get it over with & finally so move on with your life?
2. Can you file and then ignore it?
3. Can you do nothing?
4. Can you go back to her, and say "let's start over, from this day forward"?
Your healthy boundary vs. pride based punishment comparison made me think. How do I know if what I am doing is one or the other?
I don't see how option 4 above is possible. I can't stay in the situation as W wants it.
I don't know about 1 or 2 ... 3 seems like you're saying status quo... again, unacceptable. How about option 5... simply remove myself from the equation. Let W have her time, space to do whatever she wants. But move on with my life? Including dating?? I think that this option 5 is what I need to do.
"I just don't think reality and time on her own, is bad for your cause. UNLESS YOU KEEP FIGHTING..."It is my only course of action right now 25. That's the way that I see it. Am I going to continue to fight? I don't know yet. Yesterday was a serious blow to my will.
"Let's hope she doesn't file charges...tell me your name is on the deed???"Nope. My name is not on the deed. But I don't think that anything that I did was technically illegal. I was let into the house. I didn't damage a thing. And I didn't touch OM. MAYBE it could be argued that I harassed him. Whatever though. It was worth it.
"Me: "No, that is where my boundary is. I am not okay with that. I will not live in an open marriage. I do not think that you need to date OP to sort through things. It's been 6 months and I haven't."
This sounds like a negotiation. Did she KNOW these terms? "Not in uncertain terms. But I think that she knew how I'd react. She told me that she was talking to OM, that she had had him over for dinner that one time. Did she ever say that she was sleeping with him again or that she was 'dating' him? NO. In fact, she said, 'I don't want to date anyone right now'. I think that she tried to be dishonest in a way that she could argue that she wasn't. JMO I guess.
"Me: "I'm not asking you for anything. I don't want anything from you. I'm not trying to convince you of anything and I'm not trying to get you to do anything. I am moving on with my life. I don't want anything from you at this point. I'm shutting the door on our marriage."
----------YIKES...SHE JUST ASKED YOU WHAT SHE COULD DO....AND YOU SAID NOTHING, AS YOU ARE "SHUTTING THE DOOR"...(sigh)"How could I have handled this differently? I didn't want to force her to do anything that she didn't want to do. I was not trying to control her. I know that it has been perceived that way by posters here and W, but that was not what I was doing. I was simply trying to get information that I deserved so that I could make an informed decision on how I want to proceed.
So when she said this, if I had responded, I will continue with this as long as you don't see OM, it would have been asking her to do something that she apparently isn't ready to do.
She has to make that choice on her own. And the only way that I see that she will do that is if and when she puts her face in her hands and says, 'what have I done'.
"W: "And I still don't believe it. I think that if I hadn't left you and someone else hadn't caught my attention that you'd still be sleeping on the couch and getting upset with me everytime I did any little thing that you don't approve of.'
SHE'S DARING YOU TO KEEP TREATING HER RIGHT AND PROVE YOU'RE FOR REAL...BUT she's also wanting to cake eat...and abuse you some more."Right. Thus, the dilemma. I'd love to be in her life and for her to give me the opportunity to continue to show her that I am for real. BUT, I'm not willing to let her to abuse me... at least not in this way.
I told her yesterday, something that I think that I neglected to include in my update... "even with everything that I did wrong in our marriage W, I deserve to be treated better than this".
And I believe that.
"OF COURSE YOU ARE ANGRY...YOUR PRIDE/EGO WAS HURT, AND SO, YOU ARE ENDING THE Marriage... YOU ACTED/TEXTED WITHOUT THINKING. YOU REACTED...bummer.
EVEN THOUGH SHE IS SAYING 'WHAT CAN I DO'? AND 'DON'T YOU SEE WHY I AM AFRAID?""Was I angry? Sure. But I didn't want W to know that. Did act without thinking and react? Yes, I did. And in hindsight, that is the one thing that I do regret about yesterday.
"W: "And if I just take space and don't see anyone else?"
She's negotiating/asking you for the terms of the R...
Me: "Um, I don't know. I suppose that if you came to me and said that, I would have something to think about. But again, I'm not asking you for anything. As far as I'm concerned, I am moving on."
You better have meant that b/c if you didn't, then you just shut a door she had opened...She was thinking about offering you those terms or at least probing, and she would have had to swallow her pride to agree then and there...but YOU stopped it so she could not."You think 25? Maybe she was thinking about it. But did I really close the door to that completely? Is that how it comes across? I did tell her that if she did come to me and said no OM's that I would have something to think about. It seemed to me that I left the door open for her to come to me with that proposition.
Would I do it? I don't know. Like I said, I'd have to think about it now.
"I ended the convo. "well, I'm going to go. you are not saying anything."
IMO, just my gut, the translation here is -That's you telling her you want an apology and a promise and a new R, and then her not being able to comply..."While your translation of what I was saying there is wrong, that is what I would like from her. I'm not sure that it would fix this, but it would be a start. But you're right, she can't comply with that right now. She needs to come to that on her own. I can't help her. But I can't be around her while she figures it out either.
Thanks 25 for your thoughtfulness, advice, and time... as always!! I appreciate it more than I can tell you.
Denver
Bottom line? I am done. Barring a miracle, my marriage is over.
Actually you are correct Dever…the OLD M is DEAD, over, kaput, done, finito. That said, a NEW M or R can emerge and must. BOTH OF YOU caused the old M to die. Not just HER Denver you too.
Me: 'Man, you are destroying a marriage, a family... why don't you be a man and do what is right?'
This comment…up there ^^^^ struck me Denver…I will tell you why in a sec.
You may think that you are in love with my wife, but she is still my wife.
Yes Denver she is YOUR wife…not YOUR property though. A big difference. You see, right now you want what you cant have. Right now YOU want things YOUR way! Typical controlling behavior if you ask me. Is it right that your W is f*cking someone else? NO – No f*cking way…have you asked yourself WHY she is doing this? IF so, have you given it the time, effort and energy that SHE gave the M? Hmmm….
I am not your possession and you lost me fair and square while you f'd with my heart for 8 years. You have a lot of nerve."
Actually it looked like she agreed with me….. “f’d with my heart for
8 years. Did you Denver? Did you mess with her heart for EIGHT loooooonnnnngggg years?
and the thing is Denver, a part of me agrees...meaning, you have painted yourself into a corner with the insistent threat/promise/declaration that it was over now.
Isn’t pride a b*tch. Ya know, what 25 said was spot on.
I was actually very careful to avoid violating any laws, at least technically.
Technically? Ya gotta be kidding me. Do you mean to tell me that you are here trying to save your M (actually you should be trying to save yourself but I’ll get to that later) and you are going to use the EXCUSE of “technically”.
You know Denver, I was really going to pick apart you entire thread to show what I see but first let me start by asking you a simple question.
Do you still love your W?
Actually make that a few questions….
Do you still love her enough to forgive the affair?
Did you make any mistakes in your M? If so, how long did you W ask you to change albeit directly or via her actions? Seriously, how long? Could you be honest and say that she asked you many many times? If so, do you think that maybe she deserve the same from you? That being TIME?
Have you read the DB book? Do you fully understand what detachment is?
You say that you will not have an open M, while at the same time you say you love her unconditionally. What does unconditional love mean to you? Oh, and FTR it does not mean that you sit around and watch her f*ck someone else. At least not in my book…but what does unconditional love mean to you?
Okay Denver, let me stop beating around the bush here and tell you what I see….
I see a man that is angry and pissed the f off. I see a man that wants to control the sitch. I see a man that has done
some work and now feels that the time has come that his W snap her a*s back to reality and accept that he has changed and is sorry. I see a man that is frustrated by his stich. I see a man that has not let go. I see a man that is sitting whining a moaning about his sitch. I see a man that honestly comes across as better than his wife. That’s right…I said it..err..wrote it..I think you think you are better than her.
I see you playing the victim. I see you making changes ONLY to get her back and when she did not or has not responded the way you WANT, well then you throw somewhat of a fit. I see a man that is pissed.
I see a man so angry (oh and I understand why you feel this way) that his actions and his decision are driven by his anger and NOT by his love (oh…and love also includes tough love, clear boundaries, and holding someone accountable for their actions). I see a man that is so hurt, yet says he is done. Denver, you and your wife aint done. You are not done by a long shot. FTR, usually when someone is really done they do not announce it. Oh…and all of this is over when YOU say it is. The question you should ask yourself is HOW do you want this to end….cause you may not know it now but you do control HOW this goes.
Denver, I have seen a lot in my time on the boards and what I see so often is people that begin to do work on themselves and then get pissed off when the spouse does not recognize it the timeline that THEY EXPECT.
You keep pushing her, you keep throwing in her face that you are going to file. That Denver is control. That Denver is being a spoiled child who is pissed that he is not getting his way. That Denver is NOT a man that I think you would aspire to be.
You may think I am being an as* and you may be saying to yourself who the f*ck is this guy. If you are, I will answer you….1) I am not trying to be an as* - I really want to help you and 3) I am a 41 year old guy that learned so much about myself and about R’s that I want to help you save YOU and God willing your M.
FTR, you do not even have to respond to this post….What I would like you to do is this….
Stop for a second and step outside of the anger.
Think about you for a second….
Stop for a second and put your male pride aside…just for a second. FTR, I am not one that suggest that you put your pride aside forever…
Stop for a second and do not think about OM
Stop for a second and do not try and control the sitch, your wife, your emotions,
Just stop….for a day…..
Stop thinking about your M
Stop thinking about how fu*ked up the whole sitch is
Stop thinking about her actions of late
Stop thinking about OM and Lord knows that is some seriously touch chit to deal with man. It really is. So please know that my heart does go out to you.
Stop thinking about reconciliation, divorce, the whole legal shebang that follows these type of sitches
Stop thinking about everybody that post to you
Just stop….and
Ask yourself a few question…..
Do you love your wife and I mean really love her?
Do you think that YOU can forgive her for her transgressions?
Do you want her back?
What role did YOU play in this and I mean really what role?
Do you want to stop feeling like chit?
Who Denver do you want to be?
What kind of man do you want to be Denver?
What does that man look like to you?
Answer these questions for yourself Denver…..
Answer them when you are no longer angry….
I have been where you are Denver…. I have three children that mean the world to me.
I have been on the receiving end of knowing that my wife was f*cking her supervisor. I know the pain well.
I have sat in the victim chair. I have had those pity parties and Oh….have I been angry..so angry…an anger that consumed me for a LONG TIME…..
Then….Denver….
Then I finally started to ask myself the real hard questions….
I started to do the real hard work….
I started to understand that something that took a long time to break was NOT going to be fixed IN MY TIME.
I started to understand that I could NOT impose MY will on someone else.
I started to feel free Denver….
Things cleared up….
I accepted my role in this….I forgave myself….
I forgave my W….Denver….
I forgave her for me Denver not for HER…
My friends never understood, fu*k some still don’t Denver….but….
But…Denver…I found what was the greatest gift I could have ever received….
I found Me….I found who I wanted to be Denver….
I found that I was a victim if I allowed MYSELF and OTHERS to view me that way.
I found Denver, that a man will make tough choices and stand by those choices…
I found Denver that a man will make choice after taking his TIME….
TIME Denver….
TIME…..
You got this IF YOU WANT IT.
Your choice buddy…..
You have some of the best people I know posting to YOU….listen to them Denver….
Oh, and the comment above (the second quote)....ya know what struck me about the comment Denver? The OM, did not cause the break up - he did not destroy the family or M. You and Your W did! Focus on YOUR ROLE and FIX those issues Denver - for YOU...not for YOUR W.
God Bless,
Eric
If I may Denver; perhaps you do not need to file D papers, perhaps negotiating a first step will do? Instead draw up a formal separation agreement as a sort of way station to D should it come to that?
Just a thought.
Denver:
I have thought long and hard about your sitch. What is it that you really want right now? I'll bet you cant really answer that with 100% certainty at the moment. Ill bet you fluctuate from one moment to the next.
Yep. I have no idea what I want right now. Not to be in emotional pain 24/7? That would be a start.
So I believe, for the time being, DONT make any final decisions right now. 2steps post was awesome. When I got back on this site, you and 2step seemed to dominate the board; in a good way.
Look at all the people that have responded to you Denver. There is no question that you are a very likeable person that will do well one way or another.
Thanks 9. I appreciate you saying that. And I have come to see that the same is true of you. 2Step! Oh yes. You have no idea how close he and I are. Great guy. Really.
If I can mirror your sitch a little. What do I want most , and I am calm right now. I want my Wife back and my family together , but its not that simple. I dont want that at the cost of my self respect and self worth. Before all this crap happened, I was positive I could never accept an affair and a continued relationship with my W and even entertain the thought of accepting her back.
Same here. I would never have said that I would EVER consider sticking around if W was having an A... Until it happened to me.
My self respect is what I fear being damaged the most right now.
ONly YOU can tell when you are being a doormat or when you are standing up for what you believe in.
And that is where I am now. What happened yesterday made me feel like a doormat. For the first time in my entire sitch. With all of the sh!t that my W has said and done over the past 6 months, I always felt that she had a reason... that I had contributed to it. This is the first time that I haven't felt that way... that I have felt taken advantage of. And that is why my reaction is completely different.
As I mentioned earlier, one thing you know for sure now is that your NEW wife is capable of lying to you about her affair. YOu would not accept that before.
And I still won't accept it 9. Honestly man, I got to tell you. I STILL believe that my W would not be capable of this WHEN she is fully committed to me, or anyone for that matter. I just know her too well. But, she is not fully committed.
And she is lost in her life right now. I KNOW that she is going through some serious issues about feeling that she has lived her life for others for so long, that her youth was robbed of her from having son at a young age, having a chance at a serious career in music for the same reason, and having had her dad abandon her at a young age. She is lost and confused. I honestly believe that her behavior over the past 6 months is not who she truly is... or how she wants to live her life.
Thanks again 9. It is nice to have so much support.
If I may Denver; perhaps you do not need to file D papers, perhaps negotiating a first step will do? Instead draw up a formal separation agreement as a sort of way station to D should it come to that?
Just a thought.
Thanks Scylla. I have considered that as well. I guess that I don't see me filing for a D as anything but me saying that I am done and wanting to move on with my life. And as I think about things, I guess that I can't really say that for certain.
Filing for D would also be done to see if it jars W back to her senses. But that is not a valid reason to file I don't think. Even if it was, if I did it, I had better be prepared to follow through. I don't see formal separation as having the same oomph that filing for D would in this regard either. I think that it would just give W more justification and rationalization to do what she pleases.
Bottom line? I am done. Barring a miracle, my marriage is over.
Actually you are correct Dever…the OLD M is DEAD, over, kaput, done, finito. That said, a NEW M or R can emerge and must. BOTH OF YOU caused the old M to die. Not just HER Denver you too.
Me: 'Man, you are destroying a marriage, a family... why don't you be a man and do what is right?'
This comment…up there ^^^^ struck me Denver…I will tell you why in a sec.
You may think that you are in love with my wife, but she is still my wife.
Yes Denver she is YOUR wife…not YOUR property though. A big difference. You see, right now you want what you cant have. Right now YOU want things YOUR way! Typical controlling behavior if you ask me. Is it right that your W is f*cking someone else? NO – No f*cking way…have you asked yourself WHY she is doing this? IF so, have you given it the time, effort and energy that SHE gave the M? Hmmm….
I am not your possession and you lost me fair and square while you f'd with my heart for 8 years. You have a lot of nerve."
Actually it looked like she agreed with me….. “f’d with my heart for
8 years. Did you Denver? Did you mess with her heart for EIGHT loooooonnnnngggg years?
and the thing is Denver, a part of me agrees...meaning, you have painted yourself into a corner with the insistent threat/promise/declaration that it was over now.
Isn’t pride a b*tch. Ya know, what 25 said was spot on.
I was actually very careful to avoid violating any laws, at least technically.
Technically? Ya gotta be kidding me. Do you mean to tell me that you are here trying to save your M (actually you should be trying to save yourself but I’ll get to that later) and you are going to use the EXCUSE of “technically”.
You know Denver, I was really going to pick apart you entire thread to show what I see but first let me start by asking you a simple question.
Do you still love your W?
Actually make that a few questions….
Do you still love her enough to forgive the affair?
Did you make any mistakes in your M? If so, how long did you W ask you to change albeit directly or via her actions? Seriously, how long? Could you be honest and say that she asked you many many times? If so, do you think that maybe she deserve the same from you? That being TIME?
Have you read the DB book? Do you fully understand what detachment is?
You say that you will not have an open M, while at the same time you say you love her unconditionally. What does unconditional love mean to you? Oh, and FTR it does not mean that you sit around and watch her f*ck someone else. At least not in my book…but what does unconditional love mean to you?
Okay Denver, let me stop beating around the bush here and tell you what I see….
I see a man that is angry and pissed the f off. I see a man that wants to control the sitch. I see a man that has done
some work and now feels that the time has come that his W snap her a*s back to reality and accept that he has changed and is sorry. I see a man that is frustrated by his stich. I see a man that has not let go. I see a man that is sitting whining a moaning about his sitch. I see a man that honestly comes across as better than his wife. That’s right…I said it..err..wrote it..I think you think you are better than her.
I see you playing the victim. I see you making changes ONLY to get her back and when she did not or has not responded the way you WANT, well then you throw somewhat of a fit. I see a man that is pissed.
I see a man so angry (oh and I understand why you feel this way) that his actions and his decision are driven by his anger and NOT by his love (oh…and love also includes tough love, clear boundaries, and holding someone accountable for their actions). I see a man that is so hurt, yet says he is done. Denver, you and your wife aint done. You are not done by a long shot. FTR, usually when someone is really done they do not announce it. Oh…and all of this is over when YOU say it is. The question you should ask yourself is HOW do you want this to end….cause you may not know it now but you do control HOW this goes.
Denver, I have seen a lot in my time on the boards and what I see so often is people that begin to do work on themselves and then get pissed off when the spouse does not recognize it the timeline that THEY EXPECT.
You keep pushing her, you keep throwing in her face that you are going to file. That Denver is control. That Denver is being a spoiled child who is pissed that he is not getting his way. That Denver is NOT a man that I think you would aspire to be.
You may think I am being an as* and you may be saying to yourself who the f*ck is this guy. If you are, I will answer you….1) I am not trying to be an as* - I really want to help you and 3) I am a 41 year old guy that learned so much about myself and about R’s that I want to help you save YOU and God willing your M.
FTR, you do not even have to respond to this post….What I would like you to do is this….
Stop for a second and step outside of the anger.
Think about you for a second….
Stop for a second and put your male pride aside…just for a second. FTR, I am not one that suggest that you put your pride aside forever…
Stop for a second and do not think about OM
Stop for a second and do not try and control the sitch, your wife, your emotions,
Just stop….for a day…..
Stop thinking about your M
Stop thinking about how fu*ked up the whole sitch is
Stop thinking about her actions of late
Stop thinking about OM and Lord knows that is some seriously touch chit to deal with man. It really is. So please know that my heart does go out to you.
Stop thinking about reconciliation, divorce, the whole legal shebang that follows these type of sitches
Stop thinking about everybody that post to you
Just stop….and
Ask yourself a few question…..
Do you love your wife and I mean really love her?
Do you think that YOU can forgive her for her transgressions?
Do you want her back?
What role did YOU play in this and I mean really what role?
Do you want to stop feeling like chit?
Who Denver do you want to be?
What kind of man do you want to be Denver?
What does that man look like to you?
Answer these questions for yourself Denver…..
Answer them when you are no longer angry….
I have been where you are Denver…. I have three children that mean the world to me.
I have been on the receiving end of knowing that my wife was f*cking her supervisor. I know the pain well.
I have sat in the victim chair. I have had those pity parties and Oh….have I been angry..so angry…an anger that consumed me for a LONG TIME…..
Then….Denver….
Then I finally started to ask myself the real hard questions….
I started to do the real hard work….
I started to understand that something that took a long time to break was NOT going to be fixed IN MY TIME.
I started to understand that I could NOT impose MY will on someone else.
I started to feel free Denver….
Things cleared up….
I accepted my role in this….I forgave myself….
I forgave my W….Denver….
I forgave her for me Denver not for HER…
My friends never understood, fu*k some still don’t Denver….but….
But…Denver…I found what was the greatest gift I could have ever received….
I found Me….I found who I wanted to be Denver….
I found that I was a victim if I allowed MYSELF and OTHERS to view me that way.
I found Denver, that a man will make tough choices and stand by those choices…
I found Denver that a man will make choice after taking his TIME….
TIME Denver….
TIME…..
You got this IF YOU WANT IT.
Your choice buddy…..
You have some of the best people I know posting to YOU….listen to them Denver….
Oh, and the comment above (the second quote)....ya know what struck me about the comment Denver? The OM, did not cause the break up - he did not destroy the family or M. You and Your W did! Focus on YOUR ROLE and FIX those issues Denver - for YOU...not for YOUR W.
God Bless,
Eric
Thank you Eric. I want to take some time to think about everything that you said. So much of it hit me as I was reading it. And I acknowledge much of what you said about me taking responsibility for my role and my actions. I have acknowledged those things in the past too. But what you said about this not happening on my timeline? That is where I am lost. I know that you and others who have said that are right. I do. But at what point do you take action to jar your WAS into doing some real thinking and reflection themselves? At what point are they to do that? We cannot dictate that. But are we suppose to wait forever? This is my confusion. Where I am stuck.
I do not think that you were being an a$$hole. I think that you are telling me how you see it. And much of it is right.
Do I love my W? Yes.
Do I love her enough to forgive her for what has happened, and continues to happen apparently?
If you ask me later ... once it is all said and done.. the answer is probably yes.
Right now... it is hard for me to say that. My pride, my ego, my pain... all very large within me right now.
So, taking your thoughts on my actions yesterday as true, I f'd up. I have distanced my W from me.
What do I do now?
Do I contact her? Do I apologize? Do I tell her to take all the time and space in the world and F whoever she wants?
I DON'T know what to do.
Most of the advice has been to cut off contact. Detach.
Where is that going to get me?
Me? I honestly do feel that I am a better me than I was before I came here. Better than I ever was before W left me. In fact, I have no doubt about that.
Did I make a mistake yesterday? BAckslide? Maybe. I am human. It doesn't diminish the work that i have done. Nor does it take away from what I have learned about myself. At least IMO.
But what do I do now?
That is the question.
Denver
I didn't think everyone was tossing 2x4s so much as saying Nooooo as in, stop!
And that's where it is.
Except that he did say he'd file and it was over...A lot...so he has a choice to make about saying that so often.
Everyone seems to agree that no contact is mandatory.
Denver if you are taking a poll, that's how the numbers seem to add up.
But in the end, it't your life.
I'm not filing for a D anytime in the very near future. I have decided that. I am going to give it at least a month... maybe 90 days before I even think about it again.
The consensus is that I have no contact with W. Yes. But is that the right thing?
I have no idea where I am with this anymore.
Apparenlty I f'd up yesterday and should have just accepted that my W has renewed an A with OM. And not said or done anything.
Is that what the consensus is?
A few problems with not being LBS crazy anymore, is it's easy to tell someone NOT to be LBS crazy.
Oh yeah Jack. I've been there. I was warning others and shaking my head when they didn't listen back in January, February and March. Good times not being LBS crazy.
I am now though. I admit it.
It is impatience, ego, pride... all of it.
In my defense though, this is much worse than merely thinking it could be happening as I was in December and January. And much worse than knowing 'it did happen and now it's over' as I did in February, March, April and May. This is 'it IS happening' ...
While I'm watching t.v. minding my own business in my own home... W may be f'ing OM. While I lay in bed trying to go to sleep, what is W doing with OM? Etc. Etc. AND everyone here who has a W in an active A knows what I'm talking about. As does anyone who has gone through it.
My ego and pride are strong influences on me right now. I don't know if I can go through this without removing myself from W's life and doing my best to detach... and maybe even do things that make me feel that I have done to her what she is doing to me.... THESE are my thoughts right now.
Not all of it...needs to be followed through, not all of it was logical.
I assume that you are talking about my threat to file for D Jack. I'm not going to. At least not right now. But is it a hit to my credibility with W? Does it confirm her view that I was trying to control her?
Probably. I have to live with that I guess. The alternative isn't doable right now. At least it isn't the right thing to do. Not now. Bc I am unsure.
many days are left on your counter that you set up when you were logical?
60. I have decided to wait at least 30 before I do anything and possibly restart the 90 days. In the meantime, no contact with W? Go dark? Where does that get me?
"Everyone gets one big f-ck up, Jack. Now does that mean one night? Or one person until they wake up? Well that's up to you to determine."
To determine what 1 f-ck up means.
I don't know. It is a very valid question. I think that I am definitely struggling with the fact that there has been this 3 month interlude between her original A, where we spent lots of time together, and now. I am struggling to accept that after those 3 months, she is back doing this. Is that the same single F'up? I guess that I just don't know.
I'm sure that someday, I could look back on it and view it as the same singular f'up. It doesn't seem that way now. That is the problem.
Own your part in what happened.
Did you break in?
Uhhh...yeah you did. Don't lawyer weasel out of the wording.
LOL... break in might be a little strong still Jack. Did I get into the house through deceit and chicanery? Probably, yes. LOL. I own it. I don't regret it though.
Thanks Jack
Denver
Haven’t seen a thread grow this quickly since my early days when something was actually happening in my own sitch.
Denver you are getting hit from all sides tonight and I doubt I will add anything that will offer any comfort to you right now. DMOD called it right. You will get plenty of opinions and ideas and sure enough it has happened. I just want to offer you some support and I hope you find some level of peace among the chaos. I am mostly going to ask questions that I believe should be addressed.
I hear a lot of talk about YOU and what YOU need to do and how YOU should look in the mirror and how YOU contributed to your own fall and how YOU should not have gone over there and how YOU should not have confronted OM and the like.
Here is thing that I take issue with.
While there is little doubt that you have played a role in all of this from the beginning there are two people here that play a role not one.
Do I see controlling? I don’t know that I see controlling as much as I see a person unwilling to be trampled by another person’s actions. Let’s not kid ourselves here, their actions DO affect us and no matter how hard we would like for that not to be the case, well it just simply is.
Will you get to a point that it will not? I believe we all will. It is called the end. It is called peace and an acceptance.
You know when you are detached? When they give you hope and it does not matter. Does that mean you love your W any less? I don’t think so. It just means that you are perfectly content with living your life without them in it. At that point any decision you make towards reconciliation is based on just that a decision not a feeling. Is it worth it to you to want to try again because you DON”T have to.
What I wrote on your thread is specific to you. I would not post that on 9 or country KM or karma but in your case I believe it to be true.
Why?
Because their W’s have made it clear that they are not working on anything and that they are seeing OM. They have chosen the tough road and for that I respect them immensely. Your W has not taken that approach. She has given a very clear indication that she is skeptical but that she is peeking and that R with OM is stopped completely until she figures things out. That has been her approach and her stance so I take exception to the fact that it is ok or that somehow you should back off because you don’t have the right to question the current events.
I understand some of the stuff I am saying is not popular and goes against some of the values we profess here on the DB site. I am not excusing any bad behavior on your part. What I am saying is that every sitch and every person has a limit that they should not cross and you have to decide where that is for you. In time I believe you will.
At this point all this is, is information for you to read when your head clears and I hope I am not adding to the confusion. You made a statement to your W and now you have to decide whether you are going to back it up or not. Here is the problem with backing it up. You could end up D. Here is the problem with not backing it up. Your credibility is shot and you could end up D anyways.
Our WAS are not in a fog, at least not all of them. That is a simple term we use to justify their actions while we sit here suffering their actions. We use it as a crutch to hold on, to excuse and to forgive. They are grown a$$ people who make decisions that affect not only their lives but the lives of those around them. In your case SS if prob the most affected.
She can blame you all she wants but in the end it is her choices that will determine the outcome.
Where do you come in?
Well you will either bail or stand. There really is no two ways about it. Bailing requires you to say F it and move on. Of course you are IMHO nowhere near the point of making that decision. Standing requires you to completely change your approach from what you have been doing and I believe what has happened is a perfect opportunity for you to do it.
See loving your W does not require you to stand by as she sleeps with OM. Not at all, but it does require a certain level of behavior modification that for the most part does not come natural in these types of circumstances. You can hate the action but continue to love the person. It isn't that they can't see the solution. It's that they can't see the problem.
Oh yeah the questions huh?
Well it is simple really
Why is it ok?
Why should anybody sit by and allow anyone else to determine their happiness?
Why is it that some walk and some don’t when faced with the same problems?
Where does your feelings and the damage they have caused come into play?
Why is it up to one and not both?
You can only work on you. I get that.
You can only control what you have done. I get that also.
In order to correct anything you FIRST have to look in the mirror and I don’t mean accuse yourself of all your shortcomings and blame yourself for all your marital woes because that is horse dung.
See we ALL have needs in a M and in the beginning we filled each other’s needs. We were happy. Then life happened and we got busy. Soon we stopped doing the little things that mattered to our spouse and the needs began to stop being filled. At this point you have 3 options:
1. Accept your lot in life and live miserably ever after
2. Separate/Divorce because you have reached the end of your rope
3. Take an active approach to see why your M is falling apart and start to address that. It is hard for one spouse to love the other one in a way that is important to them and the other spouse reject them.
This is the part I believe our WAS was missing. The books were there before the separation. The seminars were there. It is called solution based approach and WE ALL had an opportunity to take part in it. You know loving someone does not require for them to love us back. I know this sounds counterproductive but it is true. We do it with our kids all the time. I can’t tell you how many times my D hates me on a daily basis. I love her. The madder she becomes the more I try and love her. You know what happens? She ends up loving me back. This does not mean I let her get away with murder to make her happy it is in the way I handle her that shows that I love her.
Are grown ups In a R/M any different?
I don’t think so. Sure our W’s decided it was time to seek happiness elsewhere and some of us where shocked when it happened but at the end of the day everyone has a choice to make regarding the R. Your W has made it clear that she understood she had you on a string and felt pretty secure you were groveling for her. Are you? Is that a healthy M? Is that even a healthy friendship?
My opinion still stands from before. I don’t think you should file anything right now. Decisions based on anger carry guilt. You don’t need that on your conscience but you also don’t need to be pawn in someone else’s chess game.
Your decisions have caused you great pain her actions have caused you to change now let your actions inspire her to change as well.
I leave you with this prayer and I hope you find some peace today and in the coming weeks.
Dear Lord
Thank you for blessing me with special people
To comfort me throughout my life
Today I am asking you to comfort one of these special people
This dear person is in pain
The kind only you can take away
As I send up this prayer
Please comfort my friend
And in your own unique way
Let them know you are there
I know you are not a very religious person. But I hope it offers some peace.
2step
Oh and J3B I love the way you post man and your insight and advice is invaluable. I have always held a great respect for you.
Those pages you posted.
Well I read them
Only one actually talks about a time when it is ok to walk away after you have tried everything.
The others refer more the LRT but at some point it is not about technique or tools it is about what is right and what is wrong.
IMHO
Don’t hammer me to hard
you sure do say too much. And
[u]
Can you please stop apologizing?
Yes.
either file or don't. But stop taking her calls. Stop all the contact except for ss.
That is my plan. But I've decided not to file for D ... for now.
For now, let her go. Seriously, let her go. She has to feel free to be able to "see" you. Do you get that?
She (and you) need to be free from each other for some amount of time.
You're both too in the fog to see.
She cannot see clearly, she's in a fog of anger, and you keep falling on your sword. That OVER validates her anger.
Let her go. Okay. I have no choice now 25.
She probably IS angry that you seem like a nice guy NOW, b/c some other woman will benefit and that drives her crazy...
LET IT DRIVE HER CRAZY...she needs to see you in a new light.
back off...no more talking at all....
How does she see me in a new light if we are not talking or seeing one another?
FOR NOW my story's point is the temporary part for you to focus on, the "for ONE WEEK" can you NOT say anything to her?[/b]
For ONE WEEK, can you stop all this nonsense? It's really beneath you. AND it does validate her reasons for leaving. It makes you look abusive in her mind.
for SEVEN DAYS can you shelve the crazy interactions, completely, and only speak to SS and NOT about her?
B/C you have to.
I know that I have to. I think that it's going to be longer than 7 days. probably much longer.
But in time she will see you differently. That's a fact. When you step back and leave her alone,
Ok 25. This is what I have to do. I don't know where I will be when I come out on the other side.
Apparenlty I f'd up yesterday and should have just accepted that my W has renewed an A with OM. And not said or done anything.
Is that what the consensus is?
First of all, the choice is yours, and yours alone, but the 'consensus' has nothing to do with the opinions on what already happened. You can take everyone's opinion on that, including your own and throw them out the window. It doesn't matter, it's done.
What was being referred to is that many here have the same opinion one what you should start doing NOW. And that is, step away, remove yourself from this situation, and get back to YOU.
You said a lot of things to your W, and to a point you did paint yourself into a corner. Now I agree that you do not need to file for a D TODAY. I think you can keep your credibility by simply walking away. And credibility aside, it was what YOU need right now anyways.
The consensus is that I have no contact with W. Yes. But is that the right thing?
Right for what? Right for who? But maybe a better way to think about it, how will contact
help? What
words will fix this?
Yep. I have no idea what I want right now. Not to be in emotional pain 24/7? That would be a start.
Will more conversations like the one you had with your W
help or
hurt in obtaining this goal?
But are we suppose to wait forever? This is my confusion. Where I am stuck.
Don't
wait at all. Get your head on straight. Get your emotional balance back. Find things to work on. Continue to improve. This isn't
waiting. This is working. Doing.
I have no doubt it will not be "forever" but it is also not a definable timeline. That is what you need to let go of.
This DOES have you stuck.
You still want to
fix the
M, and have it be fixed on
a timeline you can set.
Thank you for that 2Step.
BITS
Denver
Denver
I want to take some time to think about everything that you said.
Take as much time as you need Denver. The actions that you are pursing right now will have an impact on your life FOREVER. How they impact your life is really up to you and not anything that you should rush into.
And I acknowledge much of what you said about me taking responsibility for my role and my actions.
You know Denver, I used to say the same thing. I used to tell or better yet post that I was controlling, I was jealous, I was this, I was that. What I can tell you is that it took a tremendous amount of energy to really
feel my role in the demise of my M. Let me not kid you, most people will acknowledge their role on the surface. They will not come to look and feel it from your spouses perspective. IF they did, many would not rush to file. They would understand the true impact of the actions they took. I for one, had to spend many a nights crying myself to sleep. Was I beating myself up…yeah a bit…but it was something I needed to go through. Something I needed to feel to make ME realize where I failed and where I needed to change. Not to get my W back…nah…she was busy f*cking her boss. Nope…I needed…no…WANTED to make these change in ME. Not for her. Nope. Initially yes, the changes were for her..but as I peeled back the layers of my role in the M, the more I realized just how fu*ked up I was. The more I realized just how controlling I was. The more I realized that I did not understand unconditional love. When that realization came, I was able to forgive myself and her. Was I still angry…Ayep. Do I sometime still get angry? Yep. BUT I can say, that I came to understand my behaviors and therefore I was able to change them.
So Denver, can you feel how you were controlling? Do you understand what controlling really is in an R? Oh, and for the record, saying to your W that
she will NOT be a part of your life while she is fu*king someone is NOT controlling – that Denver is a boundary. TELLING HER SHE CANNOT fu*k someone else, especially given the sitch you are in is CONTROLLING.
But what you said about this not happening on my timeline?
Just so that you know I work for an Investment Management company…do you know the market usually does not work on my timeline. I mean chit I wanted to short a few names but the market moved against me. What I found I needed to do…was not set a timeline…but look at the overall condition of the market and do what I FELT best for my clients. So, what is best for YOU and YOUR W? And don’t tell me for her to come home right now. That Denver would be your ego speaking. What may be good for BOTH of YOU….is TIME. But then again, you must give up control in order to accept that things will happen when and if they are suppose to happen. FTR, my lawyer reminded me of this not to long ago…..She said, “Eric there is a process, and the process will happen at the time the process will happen”. This was really hard to grasp as a former control freak.
I know that you and others who have said that are right.
How do you know I am right? What leads you to think that I am right? I am after all just a Rican from NY. That said, I think I am right….but do you know why you feel that I am right? Answer this for yourself.
But at what point do you take action to jar your WAS into doing some real thinking and reflection themselves?
<insert picture of ericmsant2 standing in a crowed room>…”hi I want to introduce myself, my name is Eric and I am a control freak”. You see I want to “JAR” (replace with force, manipulate, etc) my STBXW into doing what I WANT HER TO DO WHEN I WANT HER TO DO IT. Does this seem a little controlling to you Denver?
BTW, I WANT YOU DENVER TO FLY TO CT and COME VISIT ME…RIGHT NOW…THIS VERY second. No I don’t care about what you feel…I want what I want and I want it now. HOW does this sound Denver? What is difference between this ^^^^ and your quote?
At what point are they to do that?
WHEN and IF they decide to do it. You see Denver, your W is living her life. She is doing things on HER terms and that buddy pisses you off. Right? Hmmm…I guess so. I mean are we not all responsible for our own actions? Are we not all responsible to live the way we want to live? I say yes. That said, I Denver, made a choice…to live my life a certain way and to let my W live hers the way she saw fit. I did not want a divorce and DID not file. Why? Cause honestly dude, when I became real with myself I realized that SHE gave me much more time….than I was giving her. I did not file because I was not ready to. I did not file because I had people smacking me upside the head helping me to see, that what I wanted was my M back…and I wanted my life. Let her go Denver….Work and focus on YOU. Stop looking at her. Stop expecting her to all of sudden snap out it. Oh…and if you think the divorce threats will work….your wrong. They only show her that you continue to be a controlling pric*. No, I say distance yourself, heal, work on yourself, protect yourself and leave her the f alone………………..FOR NOW.
But are we suppose to wait forever?
AND what would her answer be if I asked her? What If I Iasked her how long she waited for you to change? What would she say? That aside, her answers should not change yours. IF this helps……
I stood waiting for mine for almost 2 years. FTR, she gave me 18 years.
Another way to look at it….how much do you really love her? You say you do? BUT do your actions support that? Hmmm…….
This is my confusion. Where I am stuck.
You are stuck because YOU are here ONLY to get her BACK. When you stop focusing on getting her back on YOUR timeline…you will begin to unstuck yourself.
What is it that you want Denver? How much are you willing to pay for it? The price should NOT be your soul….or your man card. No…but what would a real man do in this sitch? What type of man does Denver want to be. ONCE again, I am not saying that you should allow her to come home and f*ck the next door neighbor while you watch. No – clear boundaries buddy.
I’ll tell ya what I would do….if I sooooooo loved this women…..I would pour a large glass of STFU (shut the F up), start to figure out what things about myself I do not like…(like maybe being controlling, which is really you holding YOURSELF hostage), start changing them, start healing, living my life and IF and WHEN the time comes, show her the man you have become. Oh…and I sure as hell would not set a timeline. The time will come when it comes…but then again, I’m not controlling anymore.
F right! I’m here because DB is a way of life buddy. I saved myself and for this….I can honestly thank my wife.
My pride, my ego, my pain... all very large within me right now.
Pride has a time and a place as does ego. For example, I pride myself at the work that I do. I do not let my pride stop me from saying sorry, I do not let my pride force me into a corner.
Control freak lesson # 2….when you do not know what to do, and do not HAVE to do something….well then DO NOTHING. You see, sometimes doing nothing is doing something. But if you want to control everything you will not see it that way. You will see yourself as a victim, see yourself helpless. That buddy is the control freak in you that you are fighting. Man, once you let it go….you are FREE……..AND here is the cool thing….so is EVERYONE ELSE In your LIFE…Including YOUR W. She is now free to make the choice that she wants to make AND that choice Denver COULD BE YOU.
Did I make a mistake yesterday? BAckslide? Maybe. I am human. It doesn't diminish the work that i have done. Nor does it take away from what I have learned about myself. At least IMO.
No it does not Denver….BUT the fact that you felt the need to point it out tells me that you probably have an issue with always feeling the need to defend yourself. A bad habit that often times gets us into sitch that we wished we were not it. FTR, I am not saying to never defend yourself…No…what I am saying is that HOW you do it is what matter most.
For example….say your W comes to you and says that you were wrong for driving by her house and spying on her. If you respond with you are right BUT I wanted to see if you were seeing someone else. Well that may not be the best way to defend yourself. Can you see why?
Denver, I want everything in your life to work out. These things take time, they take work…a lot of work. Are you up for it? Can you push aside the ego?
Can you tell your friend co-worker, everyone to mind their fuc*ing business? Can you make a choice today….to stop controlling chit? Can you make a choice today to stop trying to manipulate?
If you can promise yourself to stop these behaviors today….well then you have a lot of work to do next.
Let me know what you decide….
Some others may be able to tell you how to reach me….
You got this dude….stop defending your need to control. Stop saying you hear the advice but do the opposite….just stop….
And….
Think about your W……
Think about why you are here….
Think about what YOUR goals are……
Then breath…and do nothing tonight….just think…..
For better or for worse….
Give it everything you have Denver…..you will not regret it! That my friend I can promise you.
God Bless,
Eric
You still want to fix the M, and have it be fixed on a timeline you can set.
Damn. You are right CS. I am stuck on this.
BITS
Denver
Denver,
Today has been a long, emotional, day full of traveling for me after a very busy weekend...
So forgive me if I stray a bit...
I actually only came on to check on a friend who posted to you earlier (sorry E, didn't even get to read your novel...)
I know I come across as a total hard a$$ sometimes...
I challenge, irritate, whatever you want to call it...
I have been through this process with anger and bitterness, and I have been through it with love...
The second option was actually much harder but much more rewarding and I don't second guess my decisions now (like I did the first time)...
I just want you to be sure with whatever choice you make...
and if that means drawing on my experience, sometimes playing devil's advocate...
I'm ok with that...
Here is a funny...
In H's first go round, I found another woman's underwear, in some laundry that he brought in from his car for me to wash...
I know exactly what it said to me...what it still says to me...I mean, I like to think I'm not stupid...
However, the possibilities of how they got there, are numerous....
He denied, I took them to OW, showed them to her, she denied (and I don't think they were the right size for her)...anyway...maybe there was a second or third ow that neither I nor first ow knew about, maybe an alien landed in his car and left them, IDK...
What I do know is that for me, it wasn't my line in the sand...
Some days I wish it had been...
We all have to determine that for ourselves and we have to be able and ready to live with the consequences of OUR choices...
I know, people say the consequences of THEIR bad decisions etc...but the truth behind that statement is a question of who defines what a bad decision is...
And since we can only control ourselves, it is our reactions and actions that are the only ones that really matter...
Just be sure that you are doing right for you...
Not out of anger, not out of some strange sense of being disrespected (which must be a male concept because I just do NOT get it), not out of hurt...
Removing yourself from the equation, is not what I question, if it is what you need to do for you to heal...
It is the WHY and the HOW that I have issue with...
I will never advocate being a doormat, however I don't believe digging deep within and doing what is right for YOU, whether it goes against what other people think is right or not, is being a doormat...
When you decide that you are doing what is right for you and you believe it whole heartedly, you won't have to explain or convince anyone (except maybe Jack, cuz he is more of a devil's advocate than I am)...
One other thing, I agree with 25, I didn't really see too many 2x4's today...
Just people who don't want to see you do something you will regret...
Denver,
Have you gone back and actually STUDIED Jack Three Beans threads?
Do you realize that his wife didn't come back UNTIL he told her he was done? (and meant it)
(1/25/06) Jack’s back?
Well no. Not really, not the way I was…before. Being here was really interfering with my job and duties, and well lets see a single parent needs to keep the source of income they have.
Plus several things were hitting me all at once. I had given up computer games, but I still found myself spending a huge amount of time on the computer, still being a ‘dad’ by default. I had traded my computer game addiction for cruising the boards.
I was having a hard time looking at the amount of time this was going to take. Weeks, months, years? Exactly what example was I showing my boys? The one where love is seen as allowing a person to walk all over you, do what they wish and then you welcome them back with open arms? To that end, how much respect does this gather to me? My wife wouldn’t respect me on that, and my boys? My boys…
This was after he had tried the (just be her friend and let her do whatever she wanted as long as she wanted and take her time routine. (which didn't work)
Jack then posted this:
I found myself a hypocrite. I snooped. I had access to both OM and my W’s email accounts. MY worst fears were realized. After months of not doing anything…I snooped. I can say it is human nature, but, I was a hypocrite. Suggesting what other people should do, but not being able to follow my own advice…
Yes they were lovers, in fact I still believe they are as of this moment. She was writing him things she once had said to me. He was writing her things…well… 50 years ago this story would have a different ending one with a wood chipper and a lye pit.
Pop-eye once said “I’ve had all I can stands and I can’t stands no more!” He would then down a can of slimy spinach and destroy Bluto.
Same as you. Jack had deceived himself from his first post in January of 06 until he finally had found out the truth.. THERE WAS AN OM. AND THEY WERE IN A RELATIONSHIP... It was only THEN that Jack was able to FINALLY make the CORRECT decision which was the BEGINNING of his WAW coming back..
She went to California and Colorado for a month. I knew during this time that OM was going to be with her for 9 days of that time. I was hoping that this was a last fling, a good-bye, we need to stop this sort of thing.
It wasn’t, in my mind, after reading further emails. Nothing was going to change when she got back.
My last resort. The end. Over.The Last Resort has to be real. There is no trick to it. I was done. I WAS DONE. Nothing was surer in my mind. I deserved better than this, my boys deserved better than this.
Lis, told you what I did, but not all of it. I packed up all of her clothes all her incidentals and put them in her storage unit. I started my own bank account and took all of the checking and half of the savings. I knew that I was going to splitting half of my boys life with my wife. I owed them to see what a strong man was, to have the chance to see what a real relationship was, not this farce my marriage had become.
I told my oldest that when mommy came home, that we would not be living together anymore. That this was not about him, we both loved and his brother very much, this was about Mommy and Daddy and we were fighting and hurting each other with words and lying to each other, and adults unlike kids…usually didn’t make up after they fight like we do. When we grow up we lose that somewhere, and maybe we shouldn’t but we do. I spent a lot of time with him, and he took this all well.
Same place as you Denver... Looks over huh?
It wasn't going to EVER turn around UNTIL Jack finally got tough. The proof of that is in the results. Go back and read his thread. I can't believe he isn't actually telling you of this happeing to him. He snooped. Said he was NOT sorry. Didn't apologize. We know that those actions not only didn't ruin his relationship, but were the catalyst to his being SAVED. If he wouldn't have done that he would now be divorced.
Hanging in there BACKFIRES. It only allows cake eating and paiin and lowers your self esteem because you feel WALKED ON.. What kind of progress is that for someone? anyone?
My wife and I talked on the phone. And in Emails. It was horrible. I have an incredible amount of patience, but I was screaming at times, one night I hung up twice on her, and I told her that if I hung up a third time I was pulling the plug. I told her I knew everything and she was mad that I had read the emails, to which I still will not apologize for.
We took a few days off from even trying to talk with each other.
From here to there and back again.
We started talking nicely. I still saw another Lawyer. She was upset but said she understood, she had wanted to see him together, I said ummm No. That Lawyer will be mine, I found one who would be willing to get dirty if it got ugly, that is the one I wanted.
We kept talking nicer, softer with each other.
We paused in our rush to destroying our life together. Or in my mind, jumping off of this cliff edge. My feet were dangling over the edge for me.
I was mad at myself for even wanting to trust her. Trust her with the things she was saying, that sounded exactly like the things she said in Dec. and Jan, and Feb and March and April. I told her this. I asked her if I was a fool, if I was stupid or an idiot for trusting her again, or wanting to. She said no.
She said that if either one was lying to the other now, it was only prolonging this torture.
She said that she walked in my shoes, and realized that she would have done the same things. She said that she still could only see growing old with me. And the worst thing she could say about me, was my absence in the computer.
This isn't unusual Denver. It is the norm of what happens when a man finally tells a woman who is cake eating.. ENOUGH. I am done. It doesn't have to be mean. Just firm and with resolve.
Denver, I have been doing this for going on 30 years. You need to get STRONG with her and let her finally believe you may be DONE with the whole thing. What you have been doing isn't working for you any better than it did for Jack Three Beans when he was too nice. It doesn't work Denver. When a woman says she wants space, it is ALWAYS best to not only give them space, but to ALLOW them to think that maybe, just maybe they have TAKEN up too much space and overdone it... IT is human nature..
It was ONLY when Jack finally PULLED the plug and allowed her to FEEL IT AND BELIEVE it that she drifted back WITHOUT him asking for it.....
Be wise.... Hanging in there rarely works. Rarely. It isn't working for you and hasn't been working. Try another approach.
You are being wishy washy. Wishy washy is VERY UNATTRACTIVE..
The truth is that your wife will secretly respect you for not sharing. BANK on it.
[edited by dbmod to add note: 'Hanging in there' works for many folks and isn't wishy/washy or unattractive. What 'works' is different for many different people.]
Denver,
CS's post, among others, is spot on. Denver, I know you are a good man...but
This "timeline" of [i]yours[/i] for how long it'll take HER to change her heart... is BS.
There's a fine line between a boundary and being controlling. Try to find it.
Sometimes, Hope can be paralyzing. That's when you spend your time "waiting"
but as CS points out you do NOT have to be "waiting"...Change, work on you, and stop the whole "how long am I waiting?" Mantra. (Get a new mantra!)
If it turns out that you cannot forgive this, or get past it, or let go of the fact that she is with OM, no one will judge you.
It's a deal breaker for some people, and some of us don't know what the dealbreakers are til we smash into them, face first. Then we say, "oh damn, THIS is MY dealbreaker...here..."
We get it. It's just that you need to make sure that's what it is, as opposed to the pride and punishing aspects (present in all of us).
Timeline??? FTR, I was sep for 2 years with some confusing touch & go's...I mean, come on Man....it's been what? 1/4 of that?
I had 2 girls at home and h was 3000 miles away and we had NO CONTACT for days at a time, til he came out of the fog...(that was about 16 months into it.)
The no contact for 7 days, will be harder for you than you expect.
You asked what it would do for you or the situation?
And I think Eric asked the real question, which is what will MORE of this contact do?
You seem to think "this time" you'll say the right thing and it will go well. But you are not ready and God knows she's not.
She's too angry now. So are you. Do you really think contacting her soon will somehow make things better? Why? Have you revamped your whole persona and outlook? I doubt it.
Of course it needs to be longer, but I'm being real. You do it one day or 1 week, at a time.
And then maybe, you renew. Like 90 days of DBing...now you do the No contact for a week...SHELVE THE NEED TO REACH OUT TO HER...FOR NOW...
at least it is something...different, and if you want "the consensus" it's that no contact now is mandatory.
Though there were some backslides, for me the no contact was overall, easier with time, as you adjust to NOT having her in your everyday life.
You must do that. It's real, it is what it is.
And she needs to see this perhaps even more than you...
As for where or who you'll be when you reach "the other side" of this, in a way, I can't wait to find out.
I think you will be "Denver, at his best".
For what it's worth, I think this incident could have illuminated a way out of Denver's personal hell.
As terrible as the whole evening has been at least it has brought some clarity to the situation. In addition to the awful pain, I imagine it must be a bit of relief to be done with the gaslighting.
Ms. Denver seems to have used her righteous anger to justify stringing Denver along and periodically abusing him. I can completely relate to why, on some level, Denver may feel that going along with that for awhile was a kind of amends he was making for his failures in the marriage. In my view that can be put to an end now.
Your post made a lot of sense to me ED. A way out of my hell? Yeah, I think that what has happened has given me an opportunity to reverse my W's righteous anger and her justification for stringing me along. It may not turn out the way that I hope, with reconciliation of M, but I no longer feel that I owe amends for my behavior in my M. I need to keep up the changes that I have been working on for sure. But I have suffered enough for my transgressions in my M.
In my opinion, every word Denver says now will just delay the day she puts her head in her hands and says 'what have I done?'.
I take it that you think that I should back away and have no contact with W as well ED? As 25 pointed out, that is the consensus. It is also how I plan to proceed. Will W come to the point that she puts her head in her hands and says 'what have I done?' I think so... eventually. I really do. I just don't know if I am still around for her to fix it.
I think if he leaves her alone, files, and solidifies himself, she may well come back. Just my take.
Part of me hopes that you are right. Part of me doesn't care at this point. I do plan on leaving her alone and working towards solidifying myself. If she comes back, then I have a choice to make. I guess that I will simply cross that bridge if and when I come to it.
It might be possible, given your somewhat shared view that the marriage certificate is just a piece of paper, to just walk away without filing and keep your credibility. If you think you can, I would recommend that option.
In my view absolutely nothing good can come from further contact with your wife right now. I hope you will stop and give both yourselves time to process what's happened here.
I think Jack's correct, re-set your clock to 90 days and take a series of deep, deep breathes.
I think that I have to walk away without filing papers for now. That may be a hit to my credibility. But I don't see that I have a viable choice bc I am not ready to file for D. My credibility and coming across as manipulative is just a chance that I'm going to have to take. Hopefully W will see it for what it is, me saying things that I didn't necessarily mean when I was upset.
I agree. No contact for the time being. Again, no choice IMO.
I'm going to reset the clock to at least 30 days and maybe up to 90 before I contemplate taking any big action.
In the meantime, I'm going to do my best to live my life for me and move on.
I am going to be honest and say that I am thinking about dating at this time. I am curious what others think of that idea??
I empathise deeply with your situation Denver, I'll explain why when I have more time (in a criminal trial myself right now) and I'm wishing you the best.
I would love to hear your story ED and why you relate to my situation. When you have the chance.
thanks for stopping by. I really appreciate it man!
Denver
It's just that you need to make sure that's what it is, as opposed to the pride and punishing aspects (present in all of us).
That's what I don't know 25. And that's why I'm not going to file for D now. I've decided to give this some time. With no contact... I agree.
Quick Update...
W texted me during her lunch break today at around noon...
W: "Please leave my mail in the mailbox. I will pick it up when I can. I would also like to take the pool key for the summer. If you need one also, then we need to buy one from the HOA. You have all their information so I will let you contact them. Let me know where the key will be for me to pick up. Thx."
-----
I did not respond. Why my W needed to text this to me today and during her lunch break I have no idea. I guess she's making a point. Whatever.
BITS
Denver
Denver-
This is JMO of course, but I don't think dating is in your best interest right now.
Your hurting, your upset, and your angry.
Just really think about it.
Good Morning Denver,
My name is Cindy / sunny. I know you don't know me as I have only posted a few times on various threads. I have been following your situation from the start ok...( lurking )
Just a short update on my marriage to let you know where I'm coming from.....Both of us are 55 years old, high school sweethearts, been married for almost 28 together 40, with no kids.....So its been him and I for years.
I phsically left my husband in 2007 WAW.......I emotionally left my husband in the fall of 2006...I packed for 6 months under the disguise of cleaning the attic and clutter from the house. He didn't notice or show any concern,
Why would he ...He didn't think anything was wrong with our marriage..except the constant bitter fighting, the lack of communication, we had stopped going anywhere together, the lack of sex, my crying bouts, etc..........I really didnt have any hard or fixed plans as to what i was going to do...but i knew in my gut that it was going to happen. All the put downs, his TEMPER, his controlling ways over money, and his snide remarks just felt like the world was sitting on my shoulders......and man I was feeling it. I knew that dam was gonna break....
Denver,... It took everything in my soul to walk out of that home of 24 years, to leave a person that once was my best friend, to leave the dreams that we had for our future....but one last argument that went a little like this
IF YOUR SO DAMNED UNHAPPY THEN GET THE F OUT, LEAVE, YOUR NO GOOD TO ME ANY MORE ANYWAY....BIOTCH YA NEVER F ME, U DONT LOVE ME SO HIT THE ROAD...........
Sorry.........lol i hit the wrong button
Sooo......anyway I hit the road that very morning...half WAW/
half LBW......I landed in what i thought was a safe place, remember the temper, I was literally afraid for my life at a few points.
The point I'm trying to make is that i feel your wifes pain, I feel it to the core. I know sorry folks but I do.
EXCEPT....one big exception there was never an OM....( altho there could have been one but I would not cross that boundary ) I knew that if I did our marriage was done on both our parts. We were apart for about 6 months, and neither one of us were unfaithful ( Altho honestly if I had felt love from someone else at this time I know I would have went with it ) Remember......as a WAW We were done months, months, and sometimes years before we left. I read where your wife said the very words that i was thinking at the time I left.
" It's really none of your business what I do now "
I dont want to make this too long, I know your feeling really exhausted, frustrated, etc.... but i want to make one more point..........
Your question......." How does she see me in a new light if we are not talking or seeing one another ? "
IMHO You guys have wayyyy too much contact..My husband went dark on me ( didnt know a thing about DBting ) He GAVE ME MY SPACE, he was cool calm and collected when we did have to have conversations....we have 2 businesses together .....other than that .....things were quiet, I did alot of personal searching, alot of alone time, and got some much need time away from him. She will see you in a different light just by stopping the pursueing...........Give her time...she said she had made a decision.....I believe it might have been in favor of your marriage...You won't know at this time which way she was going..but thats OK. Detach lovingly.
Too make a very long story short.........
Those first two weeks to two months We had drag out drag down arguments.which to me makes your last interaction pretty mellow.
We got past that, put the divorce ( that HE INITIATED, on hold, dropped the divorce after I was home 5 months and are still a work in progress.
You talk about dating / another relationship / because your boundaries are being broken and this is something you can not tolerate......From Her... please think about this really hard Two wrongs don't make a right...( hubby's fav. saying ) Yes and I can say hubby after all these years, I fell in love with him all over again, and again, and again, after all these years.
I'm wishing you the very best, Your a very intelligent young man and U will make your own choices, Just be sure you can live with the choices U make. Hugs.....Cindy
There that makes more sence with both posts together.....I looked like a raving lunatic.........
Denver if you have any questions please ask away........Cindy
thanks Starsky. I don't see that I have any other choice now.
Quick Update...
W texted me during her lunch break today at around noon...
W: "Please leave my mail in the mailbox. I will pick it up when I can. I would also like to take the pool key for the summer. If you need one also, then we need to buy one from the HOA. You have all their information so I will let you contact them. Let me know where the key will be for me to pick up. Thx."
-----
I did not respond. Why my W needed to text this to me today and during her lunch break I have no idea. I guess she's making a point. Whatever.
BITS
Denver
First, good job on not responding.
Second, it's probably going to get worse and more frequent. Hold your ground. You can see it coming now. Test after Test.
Quick Update...
W texted me during her lunch break today at around noon...
W: "Please leave my mail in the mailbox. I will pick it up when I can. I would also like to take the pool key for the summer. If you need one also, then we need to buy one from the HOA. You have all their information so I will let you contact them. Let me know where the key will be for me to pick up. Thx."
-----
I did not respond. Why my W needed to text this to me today and during her lunch break I have no idea. I guess she's making a point. Whatever.
BITS
Denver
First, good job on not responding.
Second, it's probably going to get worse and more frequent. Hold your ground. You can see it coming now. Test after Test.
Yep. Count on it. She will swing wildly from one extreme to the other, too, first trying "nice," then bile, then guilt and then back again. Eventually, Denver, don't be surprised if (assuming you don't respond to any of the above, and you shouldn't) she even tries
sex.
Starsky
Please do not overlook gucci's post. Best advice in this thread so far.
I am going to be honest and say that I am thinking about dating at this time. I am curious what others think of that idea??
I'm going to be honest with you, once my W found out I was dating, it really made her think about her decision.
I remember our mutual friend(MF) talking to her and mentioned I was dating someone. MF said my W turned red, and got silent.
Two minutes later she blurts out "All I needed was time!"
Like they say, don't believe anything the WAW says.
So in my case, my choice to start dating definitely had an impact on my WAW.
And let me add.
When she was faced with legal and financial pressure she had second thoughts too.
I think that's why it's important to accept their decision, drop the rope and move on with your life.
She is now facing D-Day. She will be removed from the mortgage at the end of the month.
All her things are packed up in the garage and she has until the end of June to pick them up or I will disspose of her stuff as I see fit.
I'm not being a jerk to her. I have my boundaries in place and I am enforcing them.
Boundaries without enforcement are meaningless.
I think reality is setting in on her once again.
Denver, I've read bits 'n pieces of your thread. Here are my thoughts, some of these have been said by others... some of them may not have been.
- A man's word is his bond. This is why you don't speak when you are angry / hurt (aka emotional state) because later on your credibility and self-respect will be evaluated by the words you have spoken.
My late father always used to quote to me, "talk is cheap." Boy did that p*ss me off! It took me a while to realize what he really meant was, "What is the use of doing all that talking if you're not going to do anything about it?" When that hit me is when I learned to stop talking too much, start listening, analyze what was being said and then plan accordingly.
The reason you didn't "clock" the OM is because you were PREPARED. That is the power of imagination. That is the power of thought, planning and playing with scenarios. Congratulations on that. From what I read no one has given you credit for that.
I'll confess that when I came to this board I wasn't looking for DB to save my marriage. I came here looking for ammunition. What kind of ammunition? Dialog ammunition. You see subconsciously I knew what I needed to do and one of those things was to prepare myself as best I could for any interaction with my W. I needed to be prepared for every excuse in the book and have a supply of responses that would neutralize the venom. I literally had an entire flowchart mapped in my brain
- If she says this my response is that, that or that.
- If she does this my response is that, that or that.
I did my homework. Do yours. Make your plans when you're in a sound state of mind and stick to them when you're in emotional turmoil.
Naturally, that didn't mean I shouldn't be trying to "hear" what she was saying.
I agree with the "no contact" advice others have been telling you, but for different reasons. You need to disentangle yourself from her so you can "see clearly." You've mentioned it here that you need space, but I don't think you realize how important that is. IMHO this is the best gift you can give to yourself, your wife and your marriage RIGHT NOW.
It's time for you to shut up. And I mean that. It is important that you cut off all contact with her. Every little thing. That means: No texts, no emails, no phone calls. Every contact with her will re-invoke a mass of emotions that will cloud your judgment and right now you need to THINK and evaluate YOUR life and what it is your really want and need.
I have tons I could say, but my time has run out. I'll leave you with a couple of quotes:
"However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results." -- Winston Churchill
And this one:
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened." -- Winston Churchill
Hi, Denver! I try not to give advice to people because I normally need lots of advice. So, I've been reading but I just wanted to chime in, if it helps at all.
Here are a few things that have worked best for me.
1.) I made a decision not to make any major decisions until a year after we had been S. I use that as an anchor. So, when the tides come racing in and the walls are shaking, I remember my decision and I stick to it. And in October when a year has passed, maybe my first major decision will be not to make a major decision for another year. I'm not in a rush to find someone new, to fix my marriage or anything like that. I've been married for 12 years. Being in a M, is not going to make me happy for more than the time it takes for the ink to dry on the marriage certificate.
2.) Let go of the outcome. Wouldn't it be awesome if my M was saved? Wouldn't it be awesome if we fixed our R? And vice versa, wouldn't it be awesome to fall in love with someone new? Wouldn't it be awesome to get remarried and use everything I've learned to create a more solid union? Or even, wouldn't it be awesome to just date and not commit again? Wouldn't it be awesome to really focus on myself and my friends and family?
Basically, isn't it awesome to be alive and to have choices and options?
At some point, you have to let go of the outcome. You're in Fix-It mode, and I did that for over 10 years. Some things have to work themselves out and you need only be open to the possibility of things being better.
When people say you are controlling, they aren't talking about your W and OM. They are talking about the nature of your actions, the whole overall stance you have on things. The bottom line is, Denver, you're not in control here. And when you have been in control, things have not gone according to plan. The same can be said for me.
At some point, you have to come to the realization that life is going to take you to places where you don't necessarily want to go. You don't have control over that. What you do have control over, is who you are, what you do and how you let it affect your heart and soul.
Your wife has her own journey and you can't control where it takes her.
But wherever she goes, you can still have an awesome life and you can still use everything that you've learned to make yourself better.
If that makes any sense? Keep your head up, Denver
but I no longer feel that I owe amends for my behavior in my M. I need to keep up the changes that I have been working on for sure. But I have suffered enough for my transgressions in my M.
This is step in the right direction.
Did it feel a bit like you were the pin cushion?
Lot's of good advice coming your way here buddy.
The most important IMO is for you to remember the Denver you decided to be...the one you are becoming.
THAT guy doesn't give his W the power to hold sway over his self esteem.
Doesn't let his emotions rule him.
Doesn't allow anger to be the novacaine for his pain.
Take away all the buttons she can push on you that gets you off your path.
What are those? Find them and kill them. Yank them right out.
Denver, I would like to second what thatgirl007 has written.
I am a controller, but day by day becoming very aware of the limits of that control and the stress I putting MYSELF under.
Since I have been working the program I have, I have learned something that perhaps you can recognise and learn from too.
People like us try to control our environment, the people around us, and events.
We do this because WE feel out of control and insecure interally.
Then when this control fails or catastrophe happens our sense of security and certainty is shaken and our world gets turned upside down. We then turn into victims by allowing OUTSIDE FORCES to determine our happiness.
What thatgirl007 wrote in point 2 is key.
I have this posted in a prominent place in my home:
You are not the General Manager of the universe, your job is to remain open to new possibilities and let go of concepts of how things should work out.
Ahhh, the problem with cherry picking is that isn't even the whole story.
It got worse from there too.
Before it got better.
My advice, doesn't come from ignoring what I did, what I went through.
My advice is based upon it.
When the time comes for the boundary; when the gates come crashing down, the spouse should KNOW what they are losing.
Thatgirl007-
I am going to listen to your advice. It is very, very good advice.
Thank you.
Hope you are doing well Denver.
Denver, I would like to second what thatgirl007 has written.
I am a controller, but day by day becoming very aware of the limits of that control and the stress I putting MYSELF under.
Since I have been working the program I have, I have learned something that perhaps you can recognise and learn from too.
People like us try to control our environment, the people around us, and events.
We do this because WE feel out of control and insecure interally.
Then when this control fails or catastrophe happens our sense of security and certainty is shaken and our world gets turned upside down. We then turn into victims by allowing OUTSIDE FORCES to determine our happiness.
What thatgirl007 wrote in point 2 is key.
I have this posted in a prominent place in my home:
You are not the General Manager of the universe, your job is to remain open to new possibilities and let go of concepts of how things should work out.
Syclla,
From one control freak to another, you worded it perfectly. Spot on.
Very, very good stuff, folks. I think I am going to write that down on my page of famous DB quotes and sayings.
LOL thatks DG. I see errors, but whatever the message is the important part, not the mistakes!
When the time comes for the boundary; when the gates come crashing down, the spouse should KNOW what they are losing.
What do you mean Jack?
BTW, I have remembered a couple of things that W and I said to one another during our telephone conversation on Tuesday. Not sure if I included in my original update, but wanted to put them down here.
W asked me about my text message about moving on and looking for someone else to share my life with.
W: "So now you get what you want. You can go find a stripper or hooker to be with."
Me: "W, that is not what I want for my life now."
W: "Now. Right."
Me: "It's not what I have ever wanted. And if I ever did want to go to strip clubs or do that kind of stuff, it is NOT what I want with my life now. I want someone to love, who wants my love."
W: "I don't put it past you right now to go to a strip club tonight or even get a hooker just to get even with me for what you think I have done."
Me: "Well, that's not anything that I am interested in"
----------
Me: "I will not live in an open M. No matter everything that I ever did wrong in our relationship, I deserve to be treated better than this."
Again, this is from Tuesday night. Part of the convo that I forgot to mention.
I want to reply to some posts from Truegritter, Eric, and Cat... haven't had the chance. Maybe tonight.
BITS
Denver
This choice to try your best to save a marriage, this is the worse part of: "for better or worse."
I have told myself this over and over during the past 6 months Jack. At what point do we need to begin to look out for ourselves though? Yes this has been the 'worse' part of my M vows. And I have hung in there. But what happens when your W just takes advantage of you sticking with her through the 'worse'? I'm struggling with this right now.
Denver, you're getting so much advice here and everyone is trying to make their points it is confusing and at times conflicting; surprised your head hasn't exploded.
What I got from above is a sense of...entitlement.
You throw 6 months out, that's fine. I'll counter with: Have you changed? You'll likely say yes, and I'll agree
Have you changed enough? Or is the above post of yours indicative of the guy who's character lead him here?
At what point do we need to begin to look out for ourselves though?
The whole time I did. I looked at my wife and realized that while she was 'running' if I didn't do my best, I would also likely always end up 'running' away as well. I used everything and everyone I could to last as long and go as far as I could.
Was I doormat? I could give 2 sh1ts what anyone else thought or thinks. This was my character, my vow, my wife, and my family.
Yes this has been the 'worse' part of my M vows.
On your end.
I wonder when it was 'worse' for her?
But we only feel slighted from our hurt our pain.
If you believe in karma, its cuts both ways.
But what happens when your W just takes advantage of you sticking with her through the 'worse'?
How is/was she taking advantage of you?
Are you paying for her apartment?
Did she lie to you? Yeah more than likely. More than likely. Don't get me wrong I'm not the type to believe they only hung out...but only 2 people in the entire world KNOWS EXACTLY what happened that night, and I'd trust neither of them.
Your anger? It is justified.
The part that worries me about you Denver is this, and I mean this honestly and truthfully:
At what point do we need to begin to look out for ourselves though?
When have you prior to 6 months ago, not looked out for yourself?
This is the corner stone of your wife's fear.
I'd expect you or anyone to point out their worry if I posted that I just bought an Alien Harware Computer system and a copy of City of Heroes.
When the time comes for the boundary; when the gates come crashing down, the spouse should KNOW what they are losing.
What do you mean Jack?
I mean that I believe that your wife, should see you in the best light possible for as long as possible before you remove yourself from her sight.
Before you throw down an ultimatium/boundary that removes you from having them in their life, they should know that you have changed are better.
Me throwing down the boundary of "me or him" would have been a no brainer on her end if I was still spending all my free time on the computer and being a horrible father. Hell, I wouldn't blame her.
I mean that I believe that your wife, should see you in the best light possible for as long as possible before you remove yourself from her sight.
Before you throw down an ultimatium/boundary that removes you from having them in their life, they should know that you have changed are better.
Well, assuming that I still want to save my M, I guess that I had better hope that my W seeing me in the best light possible for 3 months was long enough.
I mean that I believe that your wife, should see you in the best light possible for as long as possible before you remove yourself from her sight.
Before you throw down an ultimatium/boundary that removes you from having them in their life, they should know that you have changed are better.
Well, assuming that I still want to save my M, I guess that I had better hope that my W seeing me in the best light possible for 3 months was long enough.
This is basic "Plan A/Plan" B Harley infidelity stuff, and yes, 3 months is plenty of time for a good "Plan A."
Starsky
Denver-
You are getting an incredible amount of advice, you have a very popular set of threads from high profile people. No one really knows you or your wife. No one is in exactly your same situation. Some folks (on your thread) have been successful, some not. Some show their situation, some do not. I imagine that you have paid attention to this.
There's an underlying theme from most of your posters and the advice is wise.
I really want you to be succesful. For really successful people, they go internal. They center. They act on that center.
Ditch the board for a week or two. Center. Then make a plan. Act on the plan.
Before, after or during your centering--look at your data. The results:
What you do, what your wife has done. How you adjust, how your wife's behavior adjusts.
Center.
THEN make decisions about your ongoing behavior.
Items like timelines are artificial strategies, games, yadayada, and they DO NOT have deep meaning.
Center yourself.
That's one of the things I admire about some of the most successful people, and right now Jack comes to mind. It's not the technique Jack used...it's how he went about it.