Hi fellow DBers. Thanks for reading here,
I have been reading forum since mid-June and have read and re-read DR among other self-help books, but I am hopeful for more ideas and support from you good people on my sich. Will try to repay in kind as I can.
Short version of my current sitch is that my wife dropped an "I am Done, I am Leaving you and Divorcing you" bomb ca. April 23. I did the common begging/pleading/promising/pursuing to change/crying/etc. mistakes throughout May while I helped her get her nearby apartment setup. She was very non-functional throughout May while still living at home overwhelmed by waves of anxiety, depression, and anger. She finally moved out late May when apartment was ready, and we have been physically separated since then with no evidence or discussion of lawyering or filing for divorce on her end. She had been in IC at that time which she is continuing, and I immediately entered IC upon her bomb. She continues to decline MC to date, saying she is "not ready for that right now."
I consider her reasons for giving an ultimatum/leaving as extremely justified, and, frankly, she had much more patience than she should have. To be blunt, I hurt her severely by allowing myself to become addicted to online computer games for 2 years, resulting in gross neglect of her and our family, and during that time I ALSO engaged in concurrent EA's with two women from the games in Fall of 2008. The EA's included the women sending me pornographic material (pics and text) that my wife discovered. I had already stopped the affairs at the time that my wife discovered the material, but I compounded her hurt by not re-engaging her and being remorseful when she gave me the chance and by continuing to play the games secretively behind her back because I was so damn addicted to them. Around May of 2009, she discovered that I was still secretively playing the games, and she fully emotionally shut down to me. We began an in-house separation at that time with me sleeping on the couch and hoping she would come around trying to do nice things for her, but she was very angry and anxious about the past EA's and my failure to accept what I should have been responsible for. During this time I did keep trying to engage her, but she pretty much didn't want any part of me. After a couple of months of this, I "relapsed" and got myself hooked on ANOTHER game that I played openly up to the time that my wife eventually had had enough. There were additional serious eff-ups on my part during this period, including the fact that we tried MC around the time that I was engaged in the EA's, and I made out as if everything was ok in order to stop the MC and continue the EA's. Seriously, it's a miracle she didn't leave much earlier.
Her separating from me finally brought me out of my fog, so I can definitely attest to the power that separating/ultimatums can have on a wayward spouse (which I essentially was during this period). My IC has helped me get my personal life back on track in many, many respects. All gameplaying and accounts ended as of the bomb (late April), no cravings or desire to go back at all anymore. Reconnected with real-life friends. Taking pride in self and appearance. Regular exercise (lost 30 pounds while putting on muscle). Regular social outings instead of living in house like hermit playing games. Wonderful relationships re-developed with my girls (who I have 50% of the time). Calmer, less irritable self. Better able to express things I want assertively instead of withdrawing narcissistically. Better able to control self when I get anxious rather than controlling or blaming others. I went 2x/week for IC for the first month and have gone have gone weekly since, so I have been to ca. 20 sessions. My therapist really "gets" me, so I've been able to do alot of work.
I recognize there are issues about my W, myself, and our interactions that led me to withdraw in the way that I did. I have been working on the issues with myself that I can in IC and, some of them have already extended better interactions with my W. I also have been following the DB precepts -- stopped pursuit, validating and listening to her feelings, 180's out the wazoo. She has noticed the changes in me, saying how happy she is that I I seem happier and sorry that it took her moving out for it to happen. She has noticed me exercising and my improved physical appearance. She has noticed me being a much better Dad and being patient with the girls. She also I think has noticed and thanked me for allowing her to express herself and listen to her feelings. We talk longer and about things more varied than just the girls now on the phone. She also had me as her caregiver at her apartment to help her recover from a surgery she had a couple of weeks ago, and that time was positive in our relationship in that I think she regained some trust in me, and I validated her hurt every time she brought it up and expressed how sorry I was for hurting her.
So, today, we are a bit under 3 months since she moved out. She is less anxious, angry and depressed than when she moved out. She still has ALOT of fear about letting herself be vulnerable to me again, though, and says she can only be friends with me "right now," that she is not ready for MC "yet," that she still has things she wants to work on herself (regaining self-esteem, bettering some other aspects of our life). She is sharing some more aspects of her personal life with me now that she had walled off previously, and we are talking about aspects of our personal lives other than just the kids. Most recently, she has hugged me more (5-6 times in last 2 weeks vs. 2 times in previous 3 months) and even called me "honey" and "baby" which she had not done in over a year. I've seen progress on my list of short-term DB "taking stock" goals that I made in June. She also told me a couple of days ago that she was confused about what she wanted (this was right after she called me baby and I asked her if she was talking to me cause I was so surprised she said it). That she felt herself drawn to me again, but she was scared, and maybe we would be better off being friends or "best friends." I told her I understood that she was scared and even terrified, and I understood why she felt that way and that I was sorry for hurting her. Told her I was committed to helping her feel safe eventually. I also told her that I did not see being just "best friends" as viable for me in the long-term. She thanked me for listening to her and her feelings.
That's more or less where things stand now, I will post more on the next message.
I'd say keep doing what you're doing, as you're dead-on-track. 2-6 more months of this, and I'd bet anything you two are back together.
IF you take it SLOW . . . and EAAAAASY.
Puppy
So, it seemed like we were regaining some connectedness and trust over the last 2-3 weeks, but I may have messed things up a little last night. Part of my effort to 180 is to be very responsive now to things when my W requests help from me at her apartment (in contrast to my neglect before while computer addicted). So, I put together her furniture, etc. etc. (sidenote, she always asks me my opinion of stuff she bought and says she is buying things we could use if she moves back in). So, yesterday, she asked me to come over and put together a storage unit things for the girls' room and hang up some pictures and art pieces on the walls. She asked me to do this in part because she is still recovering from her surg and can't really do it herself.
So, I come over and we have a good dinner with the girls, I put them to bed while she is working on finding a new job on her laptop, and we laugh about some funny kids' videos. Positive, small-talk interactions, but fun vibe like we used to have. She also showed me her boobs and asked if they looked good (her surg was a boob reduction) and had me feel them again.
I start putting the stuff together and hanging up pictures, and I get bothered by a coat hanger thing that says "HOME." I get into self-doubt internal talk about why am I putting up this stuff for her in her new "home" and facilitating her leaving and staying away. Then, she tells me that she is chatting with 5 friends on facebook (3 women, 2 guys that I do believe are just "friends" though there may be slight EA aspect to them) and that annoyed me because I started thinking, I'm hanging up your HOME sign for you my separated wife who won't do MC and you're happily chatting away with friends? I started feeling taking advantage of and doormat-ty but tried to control myself. W noticed something was wrong as I was on my way out the apt and asked what was up, and I told her I was feeling a little taken advantage of and that it was difficult for me to put up a HOME sign for my separated W.
She gets defensive and angry and says I am accusing her of abusing me. I stay calm and say I understand she feels angry and accused. I tell her I am not accusing her, I am letting her know how I felt, and I didn't really want her to do anything or say anything, I was just expressing my feelings to her. She started getting anxious saying I was trying to control her and who she talked to (a strong theme between us about her feeling controlled). I told her I could see how she felt controlled, but this wasn't about who she was talking to. I wasn't even sure what it was about or what I wanted (if anything) other than I was having these feelings and was sharing them with her because she asked me what was up. Eventually I left. I thought about it some overnight and called her in the morning to apologize for hurting her and making her feel anxious and controlled. I told her that I had gone over voluntarily to help her on her invitation and she did not deserve for me to treat her that way since I had agreed to what I was doing. That I should have done a better job of controlling or managing my own insecurity/anxiety about putting her stuff up rather than trying to control or change her behavior. I asked her if she could forgive me and she said yes.
This is a tension I go through in lots of our interactions. A significant part of my 180'ing with her and depositing love units by being responsive when asked to do something I can do. This is based on my neglect of her before and showing her my love of her by being responsive to her even for things like helping her get "her place" all set up. In some ways, though, this seems like it could degenerate into doormat behavior. But, at the end of the day, I hurt her terribly over a fairly long time. We aren't even 3 months into separation and things seem less negative than before so it seems to be "working" in some way. It's just hard to control that inner voice that says you are helping her leave and stay away. My other inner voice counsels patience, and stay the course as does my IC. Thoughts?
My immediate thought is to be very careful that you don't swing the pendulum too far, too fast, the opposite way.
I see this all the time on here -- particularly with men -- whereby they overcomensate for their past, boorish behavior, with overly-placing, supplicating, doormattish "Mr. Nice Guy" behavior.
Which kills atttraction JUST AS MUCH as the former boorish stuff, interestingly.
This is what I meant above by "SLOW and STEAAAADY."
Puppy
Busto,
I too neglected my wife by playing Warcraft for years. Surprised she put up with it for as long as she did.
We're both in a tough spot, though I hope I can forestall a separation. Good luck to you.
I hear you, Puppy. I don't think I've reached that point (yet?) because she sent me a sweet thank you card for the stuff I did helping her over the surgery and even when I left last night on not so good terms she thanked me for the stuff I had done before I left.
I get that she has to retain respect for me and not see me as her lackey or boy valet or some groveling, not self-respecting, do gooder that will do anything because I NEEEEEEED her. To help me corral this possibility, I actually just ordered NUTS earlier today (I heard that one is helpful in this respect, right?). Supposed to arrive on Saturday.
Thanks much for your reading and feedback. I'll update soon and will keep being the 180ing, helpfully responsive, GALing for self, validating tortoise.
Yes, "N.U.T.S." is an exceptional book, and will help you focus on which of your boundaries are actually your Non-negotiatble, unalterable" ones.
I want you to be very sensitive to your wife trying to use your area of SPECIFIC weakness (your prior infidelities) as weapons to justify any current behavior of hers in the same area. It's VERY typical.
Puppy
I too neglected my wife by playing Warcraft for years.
Man, I'm not alone! If I could go back in time and never install that F'd up lifestealing POS game, I would! I shredded everything related to that game. It was one of my W's BIGGEST complaints. In hindsight it was really the beginning of the end of my marriage.
Damn it! It really makes me mad how much I was too late.
Yes, "N.U.T.S." is an exceptional book, and will help you focus on which of your boundaries are actually your Non-negotiatble, unalterable" ones.
I want you to be very sensitive to your wife trying to use your area of SPECIFIC weakness (your prior infidelities) as weapons to justify any current behavior of hers in the same area. It's VERY typical.
Puppy
I second that. I'm already reading it again.
Agreed. I played it from launch until April of 2010. It probably was one of the biggest reasons she emotionally separated from me. Now, there are reasons why the game was so attractive to me, that I can't blame the game. But still. I'd like to have those years back.
Agreed. I played it from launch until April of 2010. It probably was one of the biggest reasons she emotionally separated from me. Now, there are reasons why the game was so attractive to me, that I can't blame the game. But still. I'd like to have those years back.
Well I never played anything like it, so it was just SOOO addicting, played it for 3 years. During that time I failed to realize my W detaching, how much friggin time went by and how fast, and really how I became the laziest person on the planet. Add in my addictive personality and it's been an absolute nightmare for me. I'm not even happy with the "good" times while playing it.
I know we can't change the past, but I'm so happy that I've began "constructive" use of my time and life.
Agreed. I played it from launch until April of 2010. It probably was one of the biggest reasons she emotionally separated from me. Now, there are reasons why the game was so attractive to me, that I can't blame the game. But still. I'd like to have those years back.
Well I never played anything like it, so it was just SOOO addicting, played it for 3 years. During that time I failed to realize my W detaching, how much friggin time went by and how fast, and really how I became the laziest person on the planet. Add in my addictive personality and it's been an absolute nightmare for me. I'm not even happy with the "good" times while playing it.
I know we can't change the past, but
I'm so happy that I've began "constructive" use of my time and life. Agree wholeheartedly. I was abducted by an alien during those years...
Agreed, Pin and Faith -- friggin addictive comp games. Yeah, the guilt and self-anger for allowing ourselves to go down that road is a real bugaboo, ain't it??
I keep having to remind myself to use it as a motivation to improve and move forward and not to let it be a tool by which W can manipulate me or by which *I* beat myself up too much or demean myself. I think you have to forgive yourself before your W can forgive you.
Puppy, regarding your point re: being sensitive to wife maybe using my past indiscretions as way to justify her own current behavior or manipulate me vis-a-vis her current behavior -- there may actually have been something along this vein that happened in July. I told her I was aware of her texting and facebooking alot with a couple of old high school friends from her from out of town (I had names from reverse lookups and phone #'s from cell log), and I wanted to be clear with her that any sort of EA-type affair behavior on her part was a dealbreaker for me. That I could not tolerate being married to a person in which the other person was engaging in EA behavior. That I had been there and done that and seen what a slippery slope it was and how damaging and hurtful it had been to her and our relationship. And that I would not be able to remain married with her and would file if I saw evidence of that. She got really angry at me and accused me of snooping and said she was "done and wanted a divorce." She said that I was being self-righteous now that I had finally changed and how could I have the nerve to accuse her of doing something she wasnt doing and to tell her it was not ok for her to do something like that when I had done it. I said, I'm just telling you what my boundaries are and told her goodbye. I kind of had written our marriage off at that point with how angry she was. Then she called back 4 hours later and apologized like crazy about her reaction and since then has been more open about her texting and facebooking. Maybe I nipped something in the bud, or she was just pissed about me boundary setting when I hadnt been minding my own boundaries before? It's something I am keeping my eyes and ears open for still.
How do I find y'all's threads? I've read some of each of y'all's but have trouble finding myself back to them. I'm gonna try to put this thread link in my sig after I post this.
Agreed, Pin and Faith -- friggin addictive comp games. Yeah, the guilt and self-anger for allowing ourselves to go down that road is a real bugaboo, ain't it??
I keep having to remind myself to use it as a motivation to improve and move forward and not to let it be a tool by which W can manipulate me or by which *I* beat myself up too much or demean myself. I think you have to forgive yourself before your W can forgive you.
Yes, ALLOWING myself to lose self-control was very disturbing. Even though I still become angry/uncomfortable at the thought of that memory, I have realized I can't change the past and I am taking steps to really begin figuring myself out. It's been alot easier to forgive myself knowing now that I'm preventing my future from being as messed up. Strongly suggest reading "Hold on to your N.U.T.s"; "No More Mr. Nice Guy"; and "Ways of The Superior Man". They have really helped me.
How do I find y'all's threads? I've read some of each of y'all's but have trouble finding myself back to them. I'm gonna try to put this thread link in my sig after I post this.
You can click on our names and view posts. I haven't linked mine but my journaling post is titled Enlightening.
How do I find y'all's threads?
Mine can be found here, Busto:
[url= http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=5518&view=posts&page=1]Chocolateeyes' Old Threads[/url]
I used to go by "Chocolateeyes." My wife's affair was May-Aug, 2007, for reference.
Puppy
Ahh, I see the forum's "robust" link feature is once again acting up tonite. Just copy and paste that URL into your browswer, and that should work.
Puppy/Choc.
Thanks, both of you guys found them. Instructive trajectory to your story, Puppy...
Quick journal:
W called on her way home to her place from work. She asked briefly about kids (I have them tonight), then shared highlights of her day with me for 20 mins on her way home from work. Longer than the 5-7 minute calls she used to make a month ago that only involved her asking about the kids. She was in a happy vibe telling me the stories and having just had dinner with a couple of girl friends. She appreciated my suggestion of downloading voice-guided meditation or background music MP3's for her meditation nook that she is now starting for herself as a daily AM activity at her place. She also called me a couple of other times during day to touch base about random things. Back on 6/24 I had written as a "take stock" baby step that I would like for her to talk to me positively about something in one of our lives other than the girls, and I would say that baby step has been reached.
I also received a nice thank you card from her and a few hugs for helping her with her surgery process, and one of the baby steps I wrote on 6/24 was that I would like her to thank me warmly when I do something for her, so that one has been met or is beginning to be met.
May need to update my take stock baby steps in the next week or two, hope so....
Journaling:
W called me in AM to remind me about something about one of our girls' preschool. Then called me on her way home from work. Asked what I was up to and said there was a BBQ that afternoon at her apartment complex with raffles and stuff. Told her I was getting my haircut and was thinking of going for a hash run (on! on!) afterwards. She said again about the apartment BBQ and said how some mutual friends of ours would be there and she was going to go with the girls. I asked her if she was inviting me and wanted me to come. She said, if you want to come, you can. I again asked her if SHE was inviting me and she wanted me to come and she said "yes, even though it was my 'free night' [read, night without girls]. I told her I would come and we should make some cocktails and partay it up.
So I get there and we have a decent time at the BBQ hanging out with our friends. I take the girls to playground for a lil while with my buddy and his boys so she can chat with her girlfriend. After BBQ, we walk back to her apartment and say bye to our friends. I go up and help get girls ready for bed and tuck them in. At one point during this, she comes in and takes her bra off and starts looking at her boobs in the mirror in front of me (post-surgery). I go over and have a look and caress her tummy and side briefly, then go back to putting kids to bed. Then say I'm gonna make some cocktails would she like a Captains and Pepper. She says yes and I cut her a piece of cheesecake she made a couple of nights before.
We hang out and talk some. I can tell she is a little nervous and sort of "hiding" behind her mobile phone plucking away at facebook in between conversation. I am quiet and don't push conversation. She opens up and admits that she is scared and sometimes uses facebook as a safety wall between us. I say I understand that you are scared, I totally get that. I know that you use facebook on your mobile as a wall to feel safe and as a tool to cope with anxiety. I get that, and it's ok. I tell her I will do anything I can to help her feel more safe and secure, and if there's anything she wants to talk about ever I am all ears.
We start talking more about more random stuff and she shares some of her facebook world with me. Then she starts telling me a story about one of her exes. I used to be too jealous to listen to stories she wanted to tell me about her exes, but I no longer am. At some point she asks if I had heard the story, and I said no. She remarks that before I wouldnt ever let her tell me about them and I wouldnt want to hear them. I tell her yes I am sorry for not letting you share that with me before, I am not like that anymore and appreciate your telling me this. She goes on with the story.
At some point, I lift the blanket covering her legs and start massaging her feet and legs. She extends her legs to me and says hesitantly that this doesnt mean she wants to reconcile that she is still unsure what she wants. I tell her I understand that she is very scared and it's ok, I am happy to massage her legs. She nods, and I rub her feet and legs with lotion for 30-45 mins while we talk and mellow out.
At some point she says, she needs to drink her parsley tea (something to help her with the post-surgery inflammation). I get up and make it for her. Then she says she is sleepy. I had noticed her bedsheets weren't on the bed, and I take them out of the dryer and make her bed up while she is in the mirror popping little pimples. At one point while she is doing this she drops her panties and I tell her her pooper still looks great. She gives a half-hearted stop it, and I teasingly say YOU stop it. After a few minutes, she pulls her panties back up (sheer so I can still see her ass anyway), and I tell her her panties are hot. Give her a little slap on the ass as I walk by her into the bathroom once I'm done with the bed.
After a little more chit chat I tell her I am taking off. We hug mutually and she says goodnight sweetly. Generally good day, I guess, though I question if I am pursuing too much and/or being too much Mr. Nice Guy. I rationalize that it's not like the begging/pleading/change your mind kind of pursuit, it's more the flirty bucket filling stuff? Thoughts?
At one point during this, she comes in and takes her bra off and starts looking at her boobs in the mirror in front of me (post-surgery). I go over and have a look and caress her tummy and side briefly, then go back to putting kids to bed.
At some point, I lift the blanket covering her legs and start massaging her feet and legs. She extends her legs to me and says hesitantly that this doesnt mean she wants to reconcile that she is still unsure what she wants. I tell her I understand that she is very scared and it's ok, I am happy to massage her legs. She nods, and I rub her feet and legs with lotion for 30-45 mins while we talk and mellow out.
At one point while she is doing this she drops her panties and I tell her her pooper still looks great. She gives a half-hearted stop it, and I teasingly say YOU stop it. After a few minutes, she pulls her panties back up (sheer so I can still see her ass anyway), and I tell her her panties are hot. Give her a little slap on the ass as I walk by her into the bathroom once I'm done with the bed.
though I question if I am pursuing too much and/or being too much Mr. Nice Guy. I rationalize that it's not like the begging/pleading/change your mind kind of pursuit, it's more the flirty bucket filling stuff? Thoughts?
Hey Busto! It does sound like a good day!
She is having her cake. She's teasing the F*&k out of you Man. Go read John28's post and see where this "flirting" got him. Go read Robx's original post where he talks about his W "wiggling her A$$" in front of him. (I'll bump it up for you)
She is in a way controlling you and if all of a sudden she STOPS this your in for one hell of a let down. If she doesn't know for sure if she wants to reconcile, then maybe if you stop massaging her, looking at her body, slapping her A$$, or pay attention when she blatantly flaunts her goods...then maybe she will change her mind. Right now she is controlling you by 1) empowering herself by your desire for her and 2)letting you know what you can't have. STOP it!
She's got you right where she wants you and if you stand up for yourself and not allow her to hold over you an obvious weakness, then she's gonna be forced to see that you have self respect and confidence.
Maybe someone else will see it differently, but I don't think it's a good thing for you right now. It's weak and supplicating and all to common.
So this is interesting. Since that "good" Friday, I may have continued to be a little too solicitous and the cat may be pulling away again?
On Saturday, I agreed to watch the kids for her so she could go get a massage. I took them shopping for groceries with me, asked my W before she left if she wanted anything for her place too while I was there. She listed some things which I picked up for her and dropped them off with a dozen roses (ugh, I know, boo me). She thanked me for the groceries and for watching the kids but balked a lil about the roses saying "we should save money." I told her they didn't cost that much and that I didn't intend to make her feel uncomfortable. No more roses (for awhile at least...)
Went out with a buddy Saturday afternoon into the wee hours and we had a hellaciously good time (allegedly).
Sunday, saw W for maybe 5 mins at swim lessons for kiddos. She left to get herself water and coffee and said she was all dehydrated cause she didn't have any water at the house. She was acting sort of anxious and agitated in general. She was concerned about a stitch pulling out on her boob and showed it to me and said she had felt all edgy and anxious all day about her healing. I validated her anxiety, said I understood why she would feel that way and said the stitch actually didn't look too bad. Thanked me for joining her at swim lesson and hanging out while she went to get her drinks. She didn't call rest of the day which was a low level of contact for what we've had recently.
Sunday PM, I went out and saw movie with a mixed pack of girl and guy friends that I'm becoming friends with since my sitch started. Arranged to go look at cycling bikes with one of the guys that rides regularly and one of the girls that also is looking to get into it. I've been doing lots of spin classes and next fun step would be to ride with some of these newer friends of mine.
Today she called me first thing in the AM asking me to come over and help her with the kids (they were at her house overnight) cause she was going to be late for work having been up til 1 am working on stuff for work. I come over and take D5 to preK and keep our lil one during AM (her care provider is on vacation). W is agitated and anxious about being late and freaking out about various things. I listen and nod and indicate I am flexible re: time and place we switch off kids around lunchtime if that will help her. She thanks me several times in AM and also at switch off time. She seems happy that I took D2 to park during my time with her.
So, basically, things been more quiet in terms of contact between us last couple of days. She has seemed agitated/anxious last couple of days, but I don't think about me, rather about other stuff in her world. No fights between us, and I've tried to be supportive about her anxieties. Hard to tell if the cat is pulling away from having gone a lil too close for comfort Fri night and/or is just distracted by other fears in her world.
I keep struggling with the balance of being helpful/responsive (180ing my previous neglect/unavailability) vs. being pursuing/solicitous/supplicating. For example, there are still some things I previously agreed to put up for her in her apartment. I put some of them up a few nights ago, then it got too late. Should I volunteer a time that is good for me to fulfill my commitment (responsive/honey-doer/follow-througher vs. pursuit/boy valet?) or wait for her to request it of me again and THEN follow-through?
Crazy sh*t. So, apparently W had been calling me repeatedly during the afternoon today and somehow I hadn't noticed the calls. She called me 2 or 3 times on my cell and 3 times on my home line (no msgs from any of them). So, I get back from gym, and she calls again (cept I thought it was first time). I answer phone and she's in full on melt-down mode struggling with our two little ones. I hear them yelling and crying in the background. W is losing it saying she can't take it, she needs to hire someone to help her watch the kids and clean her apartment, that she is in so much post-surgery pain from all the motion of taking care of them and they don't listen to her anyway. I start telling her how sorry I am about the afternoon she's having and that she is in so much pain and I would be happy to come over and help her out. She launches into a screaming rage saying that "I don't give a f*ck about how she feels and I'm probably happy she feels this way." and then hangs up on me. I debate calling back and decide not to at that moment for several reasons (self-respect, give her space/time to cool down). She calls me back in a minute crying and sad, and I again validate her upset and calmly tell her that I would be happy to come over and help out if that is what she would like. She sounds grateful and says, "yes, yes"
So, I go over. Kids are in bed by the time I get there (3-4 mins), but I go in there to settle them down a little more because they are upset from all the screaming and chaos that just happened. Pat W on shoulder and start helping out with some of the other things she had mentioned on phone that still are hurting her from the surgery (she's 3 weeks out now so improved, but since I left and she's had to take on all responsibilities again, I guess it was too much). I emptied dishwasher, washed plates, took out all the trash and recycling out to the dumpsters, made her parsley tea, and got her some pain meds. She said her back was hurting so I started rubbing her back and she said it felt good. Brought up her work files from car (crazy heavy) and then brought back down to car after she was done with them. We chat a bit about planning D's upcoming BDay party and other miscellaneous stuff. I say to her that if she was reluctant to ask me for help based on anything I had said or done in the past that I was sorry for that and I would like her to feel safe asking me for help. She said, yes, and thank you. She said she would like me to help with kids in AM and I said sure and we worked out what time, etc.
At some point she brought up that she had been calling me "all day" and I told her I hadnt gotten any msgs or noticed calls, what was it about. She said she had been trying to call me to remind about my mom's upcoming Bday and what could "we" get her.
She also shared with me that she was excited a friend was coming into town that is in the same line of work she is in and recently started her own business because that is her own dream of where she would like to take her career. I tell her that sounds great that she'll be able to talk to her about that, and that I'm excited for her.
When I left for night, lots of warm thank you's but no hugs. I just finished reading NUTS and told the needy little boy inside me not to worry about the hugs right now, that she just needs be to be supportive, strong, and helpful -- how I should have been before all this started.
I have friends that tell me I shouldn't "rescue" her like this, but I mean she is post-surgery and some things suggest she shouldnt be doing some of this physical activity for another week or two, so to me it just seems like the "right" thing to do. Am I crazy?
I keep struggling with the balance of being helpful/responsive (180ing my previous neglect/unavailability) vs. being pursuing/solicitous/supplicating.
Man, that IS one of THE toughest things in all of DBing. In my opinion, after reading all of your most recent posts, you've swung a little too far in the other direction, Busto (foot rubs? Seriously?? c'mon . . . ). I think the post-surgery PHYSICAL stuff is okay, but you're also rescuing her from parenting, and she needs to feel what it's like to parent without you.
On a scale from 1 to 10, with 1 being totally supplicating and 10 being totally distant/hardass, I'd say -- at this stage -- you want to be about a "4" (I'd normally say 5 or 6, but I'm taking your word that your past marital style was too controlling and emotionally distant). So, a "4". But right now, you seem to be about an "2."
Go back and re-read what you were doing that was WORKING, and get back to being "that guy."
Puppy
I'd be a little more picky with what things you help her with. Carrying files, I get that, but emptying the dishwasher and making her tea three weeks after a breast reduction??? I never had that surgery, but one week after my second c-section I was taking care of a newborn and a 22 month old, lifting 26lbs of her out of the crib and into the bath. The only things I didn't do until 2-3 weeks out were carry laundry baskets and tried not to vacuum (pulling on the abs in that activity). She knew when the surgery was and she wanted to move out so she will have to figure out how to make her new life work. I also understand that goes against your 180 about not neglecting her, I just think she is taking it too far.
I'd choose to help her on activities you really think she cannot do, don't go out of your way to brew some tea. I'd also consider when they are beneficial to you. If you go over to set up something for your kids room that is for them. If you go over at 6pm and get to have a family dinner, that is also a bonus for you. If she has you come over to be her nursemaid when the kids are asleep, you don't get to see them at all, not as much of a bonus.
Sorry if that comes off harsh, I just really feel like she is taking advantage of this post surgery excuse! I have a friend that had a reduction and I think she said it was a pretty simple and quick procedure and I don't think 3 weeks out she would be like that. (Now if she has an infection or complications, that is totally different.)
I too felt that she was being a bit of a drama queen about this elective surgery.
Good advice, MM.
Puppy
Hehe, ya ya, I hear ya guys re: the oversupplication.
I think there are a few different dynamics at work here.
1) She IS and always has been a bit of a drama queen. I'm ok with that NOW (wasn't before), that's who she is. She's always tended to have a low pain tolerance and sought attention and support when she has felt stressed or overwhelmed with stuff. Before, as Puppy said, I was at the other end of the pendulum in being not responsive and non-supportive (and even CRITICAL of her for being a drama queen). So, I have swung too far the other way now.
2) The surgery was originally scheduled to happen before she moved out, but got pushed back because of insurance reasons. While the timing was elective, the procedure was judged as being medically necessary by insurance because her knockers were giving her back problems (32G pre-surg). I had agreed to be caregiver for her back in March (pre-separation), so in some ways I feel like I was standing by my word to her by caregiving for her now. The balance I need to do better with is where the reasonable caregiving stops and the doormatting begins, and y'all's input helps.
3) I like the emphasis on helping with physical stuff you guys make. With the boob reduction, they recommended avoiding any repetitive motions involving the upper body, especially things involving overhead motions. That's where the dishwasher comes in (think of stretching up to put dishes away in overhead cabinets). That also covers vacuuming (which I'm gonna do later today), putting things up on walls involving screwing, hammering, etc; and helping PHYSICALLY with our squirmy little ones (getting them dressed, bathing them, putting them in car, etc.). I'm guessing after another 1-2 weeks of this, there will be no more medical reason for this. I am considering going to her next doctor's follow-up in 1-2 weeks to see if the doctor can clarify for each of us what activities she is physically capable of doing given her current recovery level. Thoughts?
4) I also like the emphasis on looking out for myself and my own needs in the context of doing this. I definitely get more time with kids from doing this, and she also gives me little desserts when I come over around dinner time and gives me breakfast if I come over in AM.
5) Ah, the foot rubs. Massages for us in the past were a form of foreplay. With the footrubs recently, I had her all lotioned up and was massaging her from her pelvis, thighs and hips to her feet. I guess I should stop since it's not going anywhere and just leaves her feeling in control and me frustrated at the end of everything.
What about like last night when she does stuff like asks me to rub her back cause it hurts from her looking at files all day. Then when I rub her back and work down to the lower part of her back she asks me to rub her a$$ more? She keeps saying how good it feels and I grab both cheeks and work them over good in my hands. Then when I move back to her back she asks for more a$$ rubbing. I mean WTF??? While I was doing it I thought, hey I don't mind this, I'm grabbing some booty and helping her feel better. But is that supplicating?? I don't see it as a boundary for me (to rub or not rub a$$), but it just seems a little weird that my sep W wants me to rub her a$$??
What about like last night when she does stuff like asks me to rub her back cause it hurts from her looking at files all day. Then when I rub her back and work down to the lower part of her back she asks me to rub her a$$ more? She keeps saying how good it feels and I grab both cheeks and work them over good in my hands. Then when I move back to her back she asks for more a$$ rubbing. I mean WTF??? While I was doing it I thought, hey I don't mind this, I'm grabbing some booty and helping her feel better. But is that supplicating?? I don't see it as a boundary for me (to rub or not rub a$$), but it just seems a little weird that my sep W wants me to rub her a$$??
One thing I've embraced in the last two months is that nothing is truly weird when it comes to our spouse's behaviour. From your wife's ass rubbing to my wife's runway modeling lingerie, to John's wife waxing and swapping out panties. If there's anything sexual involved, it'll be weird as hell.
From your wife's ass rubbing to my wife's runway modeling lingerie, to John's wife waxing and swapping out panties. If there's anything sexual involved, it'll be weird as hell.
It's not weird it's predictable. There is a reason these women behave this way.
5) Ah, the foot rubs. Massages for us in the past were a form of foreplay. With the footrubs recently, I had her all lotioned up and was massaging her from her pelvis, thighs and hips to her feet. I guess I should stop since it's not going anywhere and just leaves her feeling in control and me frustrated at the end of everything.
What about like last night when she does stuff like asks me to rub her back cause it hurts from her looking at files all day. Then when I rub her back and work down to the lower part of her back she asks me to rub her a$$ more? She keeps saying how good it feels and I grab both cheeks and work them over good in my hands. Then when I move back to her back she asks for more a$$ rubbing. I mean WTF??? While I was doing it I thought, hey I don't mind this, I'm grabbing some booty and helping her feel better. But is that supplicating?? I don't see it as a boundary for me (to rub or not rub a$$), but it just seems a little weird that my sep W wants me to rub her a$$??
You don't mind rubbing her a$$ but yet you still have a feeling of being short changed, a feeling in your stomach area that says you are still being taken advantage of, a feeling that says you are being trained to believe that rubbing her feet is actually your reward not your wife's for your good behavior.
I have a fair amount of landscaping that needs to be done in my backyard, give me enough time, I will make you feel like I am rewarding you for allowing you to do this work and then maybe even get you to pay me for allowing you to do this landscaping work in my backyard ;-)
Your wife enjoys teasing you,
it's an ego boost for her, she receives a lot of satisfaction from being able to pull your strings and make you do what she wants you to do. Since it's very easy for her to control you and your behavior, even though she enjoys the back rubs, the a$$ rubs, the foot rubs, do you believe her respect for you is growing during all of this activity or diminishing?
Can she love you if she doesn't respect you?
You are not a challenge, you do everything she asks and more.
Do you ever ask her for back rubs?
Do you enjoy back rubs?
Has she offered to give you back rubs, foot rubs, a$$ rubs?
If the answer is NO, have you asked yourself why not?
She obviously knows these things are pleasurable, she enjoys them.
I'm sure she knows that you would enjoy a back rub.
Here's a test...
tonight, tell her you're exhausted from work, you have a lot of lower back pain and would love a back rub to help relieve that tension in your lower back.
What will her response be?
"I'm tired"
"YOUR BACK?! Not really in the mood to rub YOUR back"
"I don't really feel comfortable rubbing your back, maybe things are moving too quickly, I don't want to give you false hopes about us, etc. etc."
Any other variations of the above 3 themes is also to be expected ;-)
One thing I've embraced in the last two months is that nothing is truly weird when it comes to our spouse's behaviour. From your wife's ass rubbing to my wife's runway modeling lingerie, to John's wife waxing and swapping out panties. If there's anything sexual involved, it'll be weird as hell.
John here. Waxer of nether regions extroidinaire and panty show participant. Nothing you W does sexually should suprise you. She's a sexual being. But, she is confused and highly sporadic. Don't read into anything they do. It's futile.
4) I also like the emphasis on looking out for myself and my own needs in the context of doing this. I definitely get more time with kids from doing this, and she also gives me little desserts when I come over around dinner time and gives me breakfast if I come over in AM.
How often does she invite you over for dinner so that you can share a meal with your children and her?
Giving you little desserts almost sounds as if she's giving you treats for being a good little doggy, it's not a nice comparison to be made but something that sticks out to me.
One thing I've embraced in the last two months is that nothing is truly weird when it comes to our spouse's behaviour. From your wife's ass rubbing to my wife's runway modeling lingerie, to John's wife waxing and swapping out panties. If there's anything sexual involved, it'll be weird as hell.
What is so weird about a woman using sex to try to control a man? C'mon, guys, it's been around for thousands of years!!!
Are you really that naive?
Puppy
Not naive, just think it's kind of funny the odd contortions they go through.
4) she also gives me little desserts when I come over around dinner time
How often does she invite you over for dinner so that you can share a meal with your children and her?
Giving you little desserts almost sounds as if she's giving you treats for being a good little doggy, it's not a nice comparison to be made but something that sticks out to me.
Yes, that does sound funny. Maybe to clarify a little -- before we were separated, I used to complain when she would bake desserts and harp on her about it -- that "she" was making me fat and criticize her for baking so much. This was dumb of me in so many ways because she loves to bake as a way to stress relief for herself, because I could control myself (rather than her), and because the foods she makes are gestures of affection for us and the kids. She brought it up repeatedly as an issue between us. So a 180 for me has been for me to praise her for how well she bakes and that she is doing something she enjoys. The "little desserts" she gives me are things she baked that I previously would have rejected or criticized her for and now I eat appreciatively.
All of y'all's GENERAL points, though, of what has W done for ME, what intimacy steps has W taken towards ME, what pursuit or steps towards family re-bonding has W taken towards ME are well-taken though. I need to think about this some. There have been some instances of baking and some opening of her heart and emotional world to me. It's clearly true though that the balance is much more on my end. I have justified this as amends for my past neglect and EA's, but it's the pendulum issue. By being too extreme, I may be doormatting myself.
She is still in a selfish "woe is me" WAS mode. Frankly, she is a little overwhelmed with life. She rarely cooks meals for herself and the kids and usually gets takeout or super easy meal (mac and cheese) because she is too stressed with work, surgery, kids, life.
My lower back and a$$ actually could use some massaging now -- all wound up from spinning. I will try to hit her up for some of that tonight and see what happens -- likely no way jose pyrotechnics.
If more a$$ rubbing is requested, then would be a better, more self-respecting answer be like yeah, mine needs to be rubbed too can you rub mine some then I'll rub you back good?
So here's a Q...
W and I have anniversary date coming up. My IC is advocating that I ask her out to dinner for it. Says he believes there is a chance she might be ready for me to ask her out on a date based on her sort of inviting me over for that BBQ and says if I DON'T ask her out or recognize it in some way that she may misinterpret it as me not caring.
Seems to go against DBing -- no dates, etc., but I wonder if she MIGHT be willing to go on an anniversary dinner? Thoughts?
Considering the stage you are in, I think it would be okay. Keep it NON-MUSHY tho -- no romantic hotel getaways!! Maybe a comedy club and dinner? Tickets to a favorite artist in concert?
Puppy
Yeah, I took Greek to see James Blount, while we were seperated and D looming. He sang this song.
Did I disappoint you or let you down?
Should I be feeling guilty or let the judges frown?
'Cause I saw the end before we'd begun,
Yes I saw you were blinded and I knew I had won.
So I took what's mine by eternal right.
Took your soul out into the night.
It may be over but it won't stop there,
I am here for you if you'd only care.
You touched my heart you touched my soul.
You changed my life and all my goals.
And love is blind and that I knew when,
My heart was blinded by you.
I've kissed your lips and held your hand.
Shared your dreams and shared your bed.
I know you well, I know your smell.
I've been addicted to you.
Chorus (2x)
Goodbye my lover.
Goodbye my friend.
You have been the one.
You have been the one for me.
I am a dreamer and when I wake,
You can't break my spirit - it's my dreams you take.
And as you move on, remember me,
Remember us and all we used to be
I've seen you cry, I've seen you smile.
I've watched you sleeping for a while.
I'd be the father of your child.
I'd spend a lifetime with you.
I know your fears and you know mine.
We've had our doubts but now we're fine,
And I love you, I swear that's true.
I cannot live without you.
Chorus (2x)
Goodbye my lover.
Goodbye my friend.
You have been the one.
You have been the one for me.
And I still hold your hand in mine.
In mine when I'm asleep.
And I will bear my soul in time,
When I'm kneeling at your feet.
Chorus (2x)
Goodbye my lover.
Goodbye my friend.
You have been the one.
You have been the one for me.
I'm so hollow, baby, I'm so hollow.
I'm so, I'm so, I'm so hollow.
Then he quipped, "I never really liked her anyway."
It was the longest four minutes of my life, I couldn't wait for that song to be over.
Country music should be avoided at all costs. This factoid should be added to the LBS Survival guide.
Yeah, I took Greek to see James Blount, while we were seperated and D looming. He sang this song.
Did I disappoint you or let you down?
Should I be feeling guilty or let the judges frown?
'Cause I saw the end before we'd begun,
Yes I saw you were blinded and I knew I had won.
So I took what's mine by eternal right.
Took your soul out into the night.
It may be over but it won't stop there,
I am here for you if you'd only care.
You touched my heart you touched my soul.
You changed my life and all my goals.
And love is blind and that I knew when,
My heart was blinded by you.
I've kissed your lips and held your hand.
Shared your dreams and shared your bed.
I know you well, I know your smell.
I've been addicted to you.
Chorus (2x)
Goodbye my lover.
Goodbye my friend.
You have been the one.
You have been the one for me.
I am a dreamer and when I wake,
You can't break my spirit - it's my dreams you take.
And as you move on, remember me,
Remember us and all we used to be
I've seen you cry, I've seen you smile.
I've watched you sleeping for a while.
I'd be the father of your child.
I'd spend a lifetime with you.
I know your fears and you know mine.
We've had our doubts but now we're fine,
And I love you, I swear that's true.
I cannot live without you.
Chorus (2x)
Goodbye my lover.
Goodbye my friend.
You have been the one.
You have been the one for me.
And I still hold your hand in mine.
In mine when I'm asleep.
And I will bear my soul in time,
When I'm kneeling at your feet.
Chorus (2x)
Goodbye my lover.
Goodbye my friend.
You have been the one.
You have been the one for me.
I'm so hollow, baby, I'm so hollow.
I'm so, I'm so, I'm so hollow.
Then he quipped, "I never really liked her anyway."
It was the longest four minutes of my life, I couldn't wait for that song to be over.
Coach,
I'd never heard that song before. Based upon your post, I YouTube'd it, and listened to its haunting sound and lyrics, and just downloaded it on my iTunes.
thanks.
Puppy
I don't think I can listen to it.
Blount was much better live than on the CD.
Yeah, between that and "Held," by Natalie Grant, which Hoosiermama recommended to me yesterday, I've pretty much been a blubbering mess.
"Held" -- Natalie Grant Puppy
My God, if Goodbye My Lover (Blunt) played while I was anywhere with my W in our current sitch, fuhgettaboutit. How did you hold it together, man?
My guess is W will say "no, not ready for that yet." but I don't think the asking will set things back much if I avoid being all melty man when asking her and act like the turn down isn't that big a deal.
Incidentally, I keep trying to read between the lines and can't figure out if the below stuff W has said is standard WAS script or if it due to the fact that I had the EA's on her and she is still hurt/walled off from them and hoping to heal or what (or if I should just stop trying to figure it out??):
Be patient with me, don't pressure me (this was earlier on when I was trying to push R, have since stopped)
I'm not ready for that YET
Be patient with me, I need a little more time
I just want to be friends RIGHT NOW
I can only be friends with you RIGHT NOW
Is that standard script?
Ask exactly as I posted the request,
don't be afraid of the rejection,
in fact.... expect it, expect it 100%,
that way when it happens, you just look at her and smile because she is so predictable.
If she actually agrees (I don't think she will) but if she does, don't jump at it like a love starved pet, just enjoy it the way she enjoyed your massage but again like I said, expect her to reject the idea but don't get mad at the rejection, smile, giggle, but don't get mad.
The lesson being, the one being rejected is usually the person in the relationship doing the pursuing - if you get rejected, guess which one you are ;-)
No more supplicating, wussy type behavior.
Pull back a bit, stop being so attentive, stop being there always, give her the gift of missing you a bit and one last thing:
you making comments about her baking and not wanting to eat her home baked desserts all the time was not why she wanted out of the relationship, it's not even close to being the reason regardless of what she tells you.
I believe she wanted/wants out cause I had 2 EA's on her and totally ignored her and her needs for 3 years cause I got hooked on a computer game. As I see it, the baking stuff was a very small, but symbolic aspect of that (me being selfish, self-absorbed and not attentive/responsive/tuned into her and what SHE wanted). I don't see it as being about the baking, but what my reaction to the baking and desserts symbolized to her.
I mean I REALLY ignored her and what she wanted and then had EA's on her to boot and after the EA's were discovered CONTINUED to ignore her and her needs/wants, while self-indulgently catering to my own. She would scream at me to stop playing the game and come to bed, and I would tell her she couldn't control me or ignore her altogether. Full-on rejection of her by addiction.
I was ambiguous in my above msg -- the rejection I ponder is for an annniversary dinner/date request. The back (or a$$) rub I take as a foregone conclusion she will balk at. I will request it as you suggested anyway to confirm.
I'm not sure whether NC will lead to her missing me in a good way because of the past history of neglect and EA's on my part (she may perceive me as busy in another affair or gaming) and based on her reaction on Monday when she couldn't reach me after 5-6 calls and I also hadn't contacted her at all on Sunday (when she finally got through to me, she called me in a rage screaming you don't give a f*ck about me and hung up on me). That doesn't seem like the right direction in terms of "what works"???
The time she MOST warmed up to me recently was during the 2 weeks that I was over at her place sleeping under the same roof taking care of her post-surgery. That's when all the hugging started again (after the first week of being there). Now I'm back at the house and the hugging has stopped. Thoughts?
My God, if Goodbye My Lover (Blunt) played while I was anywhere with my W in our current sitch, fuhgettaboutit. How did you hold it together, man?
My guess is W will say "no, not ready for that yet." but I don't think the asking will set things back much if I avoid being all melty man when asking her and act like the turn down isn't that big a deal.
NEVER go all "melty man" with a spouse who's still wayward. That's for us sensitive guys to do in the bathroom at 2 in the morning, with the exhaust fan on, and your head buried in a big fluffy bath towel.
Remember, short-term "warming up" doesn't necessarily equate to the best long-term chances for warming up.
There are LOTS of melty-man, supplicating type moves that can get you short-term "warming up." None of them are conducive to building the kind of longer-term respect and attraction you're seeking.
Puppy
The time she MOST warmed up to me recently was during the 2 weeks that I was over at her place sleeping under the same roof taking care of her post-surgery. That's when all the hugging started again (after the first week of being there). Now I'm back at the house and the hugging has stopped. Thoughts?
My thoughts on this are that you went overboard. She hugged and you embraced that hug, the extra massages and the flowers were you going above her level of 'warming up'. It came on too strong perhaps. Embrace it when she wants to give you a hug, just don't try to take it up a notch.
The time she MOST warmed up to me recently was during the 2 weeks that I was over at her place sleeping under the same roof taking care of her post-surgery. That's when all the hugging started again (after the first week of being there). Now I'm back at the house and the hugging has stopped. Thoughts?
My thoughts on this are that you went overboard. She hugged and you embraced that hug, the extra massages and the flowers were you going above her level of 'warming up'. It came on too strong perhaps. Embrace it when she wants to give you a hug, just don't try to take it up a notch.
Agree with this.
^"Escalation" is dangerous in geopolitics, and it's dangerous in DBing. Best to mirror your adversary, and leave 'em wanting more.
Puppy
My God, if Goodbye My Lover (Blunt) played while I was anywhere with my W in our current sitch, fuhgettaboutit. How did you hold it together, man?
My guess is W will say "no, not ready for that yet." but I don't think the asking will set things back much if I avoid being all melty man when asking her and act like the turn down isn't that big a deal.
Ready2Change, this needs to be stickied!
I believe she wanted/wants out cause I had 2 EA's on her and totally ignored her and her needs for 3 years cause I got hooked on a computer game. As I see it, the baking stuff was a very small, but symbolic aspect of that (me being selfish, self-absorbed and not attentive/responsive/tuned into her and what SHE wanted). I don't see it as being about the baking, but what my reaction to the baking and desserts symbolized to her.
The Betty Crocker Theory.
Let's have some cake? As red roses signify love and passion and white roses, loyalty, purity, and a love stronger than death, The Art of Baking symbolizes something much greater for your relationship. Mixing ingredients of desperation and spreading false hope while indulging your spouse indicates you are out of touch with reality.
Who can resist a piece of Chocolate Cake with sprinkled Selfish Behavior and Co-Dependence? Is it not the most sweetest, indulgent treat someone could offer? "Me, Me, Me, I want you to want me. I want you to want me or I am depressed." It is a sacrifice to lose one's self worth and dignity in an attempt to control and manipulate another for one's own selfish desires. It is indulgent yet it is not festive or mysterious.
As we criticize those who want to have their cake and eat it too, we need to consider the intentions of the 'Betty Crocker Wannabe.' To bake and serve the side dish is to be the side dish. Consider before you a 24oz Prime Rib. It is the main dish which should be the challenge to complete. Bread, and pastries and brownies are but a side dish and a desert to relish afterwards. Notice the words 'challenge' and 'complete.' Since the beginning of time it has been "Survival of the fittest." It drives our need to succeed. Be it capturing a wholly mammoth, or harvesting a field of corn or procuring a healthy, successful mate. We succeed or we perish. There is no drive to be second best. Neither is there a second choice when you are a tree. You take in the sun, and respirate and reach for the sky. Likewise, you should not settle for second option in a relationship. You need to continually challenge your mate instead of buttering them up with pastries.
Settling for second option in a relationship poses some questions. 'What are they cooking up?' Can they know themselves if they cannot understand me? Can they truly love them self if they do not know how to love me?
There is a reason Tyson did as many sit-ups as he did. He could stomach anything thrown his way. He had no time for cupcakes.
I believe she wanted/wants out cause I had 2 EA's on her and totally ignored her and her needs for 3 years cause I got hooked on a computer game. As I see it, the baking stuff was a very small, but symbolic aspect of that (me being selfish, self-absorbed and not attentive/responsive/tuned into her and what SHE wanted). I don't see it as being about the baking, but what my reaction to the baking and desserts symbolized to her.
The Betty Crocker Theory.
Let's have some cake? As red roses signify love and passion and white roses, loyalty, purity, and a love stronger than death, The Art of Baking symbolizes something much greater for your relationship. Mixing ingredients of desperation and spreading false hope while indulging your spouse indicates you are out of touch with reality.
Who can resist a piece of Chocolate Cake with sprinkled Selfish Behavior and Co-Dependence? Is it not the most sweetest, indulgent treat someone could offer? "Me, Me, Me, I want you to want me. I want you to want me or I am depressed." It is a sacrifice to lose one's self worth and dignity in an attempt to control and manipulate another for one's own selfish desires. It is indulgent yet it is not festive or mysterious.
As we criticize those who want to have their cake and eat it too, we need to consider the intentions of the 'Betty Crocker Wannabe.' To bake and serve the side dish is to be the side dish. Consider before you a 24oz Prime Rib. It is the main dish which should be the challenge to complete. Bread, and pastries and brownies are but a side dish and a desert to relish afterwards. Notice the words 'challenge' and 'complete.' Since the beginning of time it has been "Survival of the fittest." It drives our need to succeed. Be it capturing a wholly mammoth, or harvesting a field of corn or procuring a healthy, successful mate. We succeed or we perish. There is no drive to be second best. Neither is there a second choice when you are a tree. You take in the sun, and respirate and reach for the sky. Likewise, you should not settle for second option in a relationship. You need to continually challenge your mate instead of buttering them up with pastries.
Settling for second option in a relationship poses some questions. 'What are they cooking up?' Can they know themselves if they cannot understand me? Can they truly love them self if they do not know how to love me?
There is a reason Tyson did as many sit-ups as he did. He could stomach anything thrown his way. He had no time for cupcakes.
Who wrote that, McQ?
The Betty Crocker Theory.
Let's have some cake? As red roses signify love and passion and white roses, loyalty, purity, and a love stronger than death, The Art of Baking symbolizes something much greater for your relationship. Mixing ingredients of desperation and spreading false hope while indulging your spouse indicates you are out of touch with reality.
Who can resist a piece of Chocolate Cake with sprinkled Selfish Behavior and Co-Dependence? Is it not the most sweetest, indulgent treat someone could offer? "Me, Me, Me, I want you to want me. I want you to want me or I am depressed." It is a sacrifice to lose one's self worth and dignity in an attempt to control and manipulate another for one's own selfish desires. It is indulgent yet it is not festive or mysterious.
As we criticize those who want to have their cake and eat it too, we need to consider the intentions of the 'Betty Crocker Wannabe.' To bake and serve the side dish is to be the side dish. Consider before you a 24oz Prime Rib. It is the main dish which should be the challenge to complete. Bread, and pastries and brownies are but a side dish and a desert to relish afterwards. Notice the words 'challenge' and 'complete.' Since the beginning of time it has been "Survival of the fittest." It drives our need to succeed. Be it capturing a wholly mammoth, or harvesting a field of corn or procuring a healthy, successful mate. We succeed or we perish. There is no drive to be second best. Neither is there a second choice when you are a tree. You take in the sun, and respirate and reach for the sky. Likewise, you should not settle for second option in a relationship. You need to continually challenge your mate instead of buttering them up with pastries.
Settling for second option in a relationship poses some questions. 'What are they cooking up?' Can they know themselves if they cannot understand me? Can they truly love them self if they do not know how to love me?
There is a reason Tyson did as many sit-ups as he did. He could stomach anything thrown his way. He had no time for cupcakes.
Thanks for stopping by McQ. I've read the above piece several times and there are parts of it I get. One thing I take away is why should *I* desperately settle for crumbs of love (and in return offer banquets) when that would never sate me and would leave her fat and lazy (leaving BOTH of us in unhealthy, untenable places). They also denigrate me in that I settle for something less than I am worth.
Another point I take is that by my offering the banquets (of massages, etc), you suggest I am trying to control her feelings and not let her make her own journey which could lead to a truer destination. That I am not being loving and fair to her to let her make her own emotional choices.
Are these (some of) your points? Want to make sure I'm reading right before responding.
Also, it may not appear like it, but I am doing lots of GAL stuff (Tyson's situps?) when I'm not over at her place, I just don't post about it much.
She's called me several times today. Earlier called me randomly to tell me about random funny thing that happened at WalMart. On her way to Walmart, she asked me if there was anything I wanted her to pick up for me (I guess that is nice). She JUST called me again now asking me to come over again tonight, that she was at her wits ended and needed my help cause she is in pain. I want to help her because I do believe she is in pain and needs help with physical stuff, but I don't want this co-dependence cycle you and others have alluded to. Thoughts? I found out her next follow-up doctor's appt. is Sept. 3 and hope to get more info there on if this pain and level of assistance is reasonable.
OK, back from W's apt. I didn't ask her for an a$$ massage since she called me over due to her pain (somehow would seem insensitive, hehe). After her mandatory exhibition of T to me and showing me every nook and cranny of her areolas...I didn't boil any parsley tea or foot massage or even back massage her this time. I made dinner for the kids and myself (she had eaten a late lunch), bathed the kids, played Caribou with the kids, read the kids bedtime stories and tucked them in. I covered W with a blanket and she fell asleep on the couch and slept about half the time (really pooped).
While she was awake, we chatted about misc stuff. She said, hey tomorrow there is this kids' band (that our kids like) playing at something at 6 pm. I said that sounds like fun to me, would you like to come? She said yeah definitely if she can get off work in time (so her sort of initiating more time together [albeit family time together]).
When I left, I said ok I gotta get to the gym, I'll see you later W and headed for door. She said bye in a sweet voice from couch and when I got to door and turned around to wave, she had chased me to door and she asked me if she could have a hug. I said, sure and we hugged. When she pulled back she said, "Are you my best friend?", and I said, "right now." Then I said come here I'm gonna hug you again, and she said ok but be careful with the boobs they still hurt. And I said, "I like the boobs."
With the progression of trust/affection back towards love from a hurt place, doesn't it go friend --> best friend --> love attraction (isn't that how the Harley / Marriage Builders / Love Bucket idea works?). I mean I don't want to be pigeonholed into a "friend" category, but my understanding of the love bucket idea is you proceed through a friend/best friend category on the way back to attraction/love affection? Or am I hitting the pipe too much?
Off to gym...
since no one else said it,
you have been pigeonholed into the gay friend category,
and yes you are hitting the pipe too much.
FWIW I think that harley/marriage builders/love bucket theory has a ton of holes.
From bum rubs to showing her boobage,
she can be completely free to show you every nook & cranny on her body because she doesn't have to worry about it turning sexual - you have become her new gay friend and trust me, I don't think this path leads you to her being attracted to you again and eventual marital bliss.
But then again, that's just my opinion.
Hehe, Rob, I knew I could count on you for some input.
Few comments in response:
1) What about the Harley/Marriage Builders/Love Bucket theory do you not buy? Some of the stuff in DR follows that progression. In DR (MWD), there is a letter from a "successful" DB'er that says, "No gifts, I love yous, special occasions or anything other than being a [bold] very helpful father and kind friend [/bold]. There's also plenty of stuff in DR where they present cases of progress transitioning gradually from verbal warmth, to pats, to hugs and eventually to kissing and ML.
2) I'm not sure if you remember the details of my initial sitch, but my W has a HUGE trust issue with me now from my having the 2 concurrent EA's on her in 2008 and subsequently hiding.being deceptive about continued game play (so she was wondering if I was continuing to have other EA's). We had in-house separation from like Aug.09 where she wouldn't let me touch her at all and then moved out late May. Her distrust/anger of me was so much that she was literally having panic attacks while in the house, horrible insomnia, heavily medicated, and in June after she moved out stated 2 separate times that she was terrified I was going to kill her (she got full blown paranoia). So, I take her calling me her best friend at the end of August as "trust" progress of some sort. We can debate about whether continuing the same path will get to marital bliss or whether something needs to change in our relationship to try to re-sexualize things, but given where things were 2.5 months ago, I don't see it as all bad.
3) Because of her trust issues from the EA and my post-affair behavior, she has even declared things post-separation like, "I will never get married again," "I am broken, no man can be trusted," "I can't give you what you want yet, I need more time," "I can only be friends with you RIGHT NOW,"I'm not ready for that YET," "I can't be sexual with you right now," "I am terrified of opening myself up to you again," "I feel myself drawn to you, but I am so scared" (this most recently) In that last convo, she called me baby and said she was confused and wondered if maybe we could be best friends because she was so scared and I told her I understood why she felt that way, but that wasn't something I was interested in the long term. I really think she is scared $hitless about being vulnerable to me (or anyone) in a sexual relationship right now. I keep hoping she will decide she wants to do MC oriented towards intimacy after infidelity, but she said a couple of weeks ago she is not "ready for that."
5) When the ass rubbing or T shows happen I always say something to sexualize it to make it clear that I am not just her gay friend. When I was staying over there I also paraded around with my shirt off and wearing boxers that I didnt realize my package was hanging out of and she said she felt violated that I was sitting next to her with my stuff hanging out (she wouldn't feel violated by a gay friend, right?). And when she walked in on me while I was showering, she was nervously checking me out then left. In other words, I think there is something sexual still there, but she is scared or turned off still cause of the trust issues.
Welcome your thoughts and input about the TRUST bugaboo and how attraction can break through that.
Lemme go hit on my pipe a bit more
When I was staying over there I also paraded around with my shirt off and wearing boxers that I didnt realize my package was hanging out of and she said she felt violated that I was sitting next to her with my stuff hanging out (she wouldn't feel violated by a gay friend, right?). And when she walked in on me while I was showering, she was nervously checking me out then left. In other words, I think there is something sexual still there, but she is scared or turned off still cause of the trust issues.
Busto,
I'm sorry, but I think your wife has some serious sexual issues and hangups. Was she ever abused when she was younger or anything like that? Her behavior is just WIERD, and I would caution you when she's making statements like what I've bolded above. It is VERY common for a wayward wife to use these kinds of accusations legally against you -- I see it on here all the time.
And Robx, I'd also be curious to know what, specifically, you don't like about Harley's approach.
Puppy
Puppy,
You're telling me! I do think that early abuse might be part of what is at play here. Her very first boyfriend (young high school) was physically abusive to her and her mom hit her as well when she was younger. There is no sexual abuse that I am aware of, but things I have read suggest that the forms of abuse (from mom and from first boyfriend) that she has experienced could create severe trust issues and that I may have retriggered those when I had the EA's and their aftermath on her. I wonder if that's where her ideas that "I was going to kill her" came from (physical fear based on her early experiences?). She said to me post-separation that if there was ANYONE in the world she thought she could trust and that wouldn't hurt her it was me and if she got hurt even by me who wouldn't hurt her. I am sure we need MC if we are ever to get past this issue.
Yeah, I will keep careful on the legal front. When she used the word "violated" under those circumstances, it threw me for a loop also.
Be especially careful IN WRITING, but even on the phone, she could record you. As soon as she throws out an "I don't feel safe" line to you, and you let it go unrefuted or even just some general "validation" response ("I understand that you feel that way,") you can be screwed, legally. Like I said, I've seen it happen.
The best defense against this is to DOCUMENT the things that she has done -- or will do -- that would indicate that she DOES feel safe with you.
Puppy
So W called me in the AM at work today while I was in meeting. Called her 40 min later. I guess she just called to talk, she was at Starbucks with our youngest D hanging out (her daycare provider is on vacation this week so we are doing half days with her). W said something about being hungry. I asked her if she wanted to grab some lunch. She said, yeah but she needed to call her cousin to cancel cause she had just called her cousin to see if her cousin wanted to have lunch, W said she was going to ask me but figured I was busy (since I hadn't called her back?). She calls cousin and calls me back and says she is in the mood for sushi and suggests some places near where we live that we've been too. I say let's try somewhere fun and new instead. She agrees and suggests a place her friend just told her about and we meet there with our D2.
Nice lunch, I did lot of the looking deep into eyes eye contact. Said her hair looked beautiful in the sun and her eyes looked gorgeous with the way she did her eyeliner. She's still seems uncomfortable with me saying stuff like that and quietly said 'stop it' though I think she still likes the compliment in some way (this is one of those hang ups I think of her having the trust wall up). I stopped it, but I still feel I need to say stuff like this from time to time to make sure she knows I find her sexually attractive and am not gay best friend. Should I stop/continue this sort of stuff??
We had a nice lunch and our D2 actually behaved well so we could talk. She showed me some more funny stuff from her facebook that we cracked up about. At the end, she said she was happy we tried somewhere new and even D2 had joined us and asked me if I liked it and I said yeah it was a great suggestion of a place she made and thanked her. On way out, she said something about she needed to give her baby some hugs and kisses since she was going to work, and I said what about D2? She said 'stop it' again and gave some hugs and a kiss to our little one then gave me a hug and left for work.
I told her at lunch I was taking the girls tonight to the concert thing we had talked about the day before and invited her to come as well that it would be fun if she could make it. She said she definitely would try, that she really wanted to.
So, there we are. There's this growing warmth between us, but RobX suggests it is gay best friend but I am hopeful it is her heart beginning to soften a little from the hurt and mistrust. How to tell?
Get her to pursue you. You are doing all the pursuing.
On way out, she said something about she needed to give her baby some hugs and kisses since she was going to work, and I said what about D2? She said 'stop it' again and gave some hugs and a kiss to our little one then gave me a hug and left for work.
You need to be the first one to leave. She needs to see that you have other things to attend to.
Have plans you can't break next time she calls and wants you to come over. Seems to me she only "hurts" is when she is lonely and needs her @$$ rubbed.
Are you getting what you want?
Get her to pursue you. You are doing all the pursuing.
Have plans you can't break next time she calls and wants you to come over. Seems to me she only "hurts" is when she is lonely and needs her @$$ rubbed.
She's the one calling me and suggesting/hinting at things to do together (isn't that her covertly pursuing me??). I NEVER initiate calls, txt or email to her. So you suggest I pull back more by rejecting some of the invites and being less available? Like RobX suggested to make her miss me more? It seems like she misses me from these calls and hints? But if she misses me more maybe she would do more work at her end to fix the R?
And stop the compliments? I thought the compliments were part of the wooing love affirmations and the "bad pursuing" was pursuing re: the R? I thought you complimented Greek (I saw some of those on another thread?). What's YOUR view on this whole love bucket thing?
On way out, she said something about she needed to give her baby some hugs and kisses since she was going to work, and I said what about D2? She said 'stop it' again and gave some hugs and a kiss to our little one then gave me a hug and left for work.
You need to be the first one to leave. She needs to see that you have other things to attend to.
Oh sorry I was unclear here. We left at same time. This was in the parking lot and I was on the way way to my car, Hers just happened to be parked closer to restaurant. Next time I'll leave earlier. "Gotta go hon, hot date at 2, ciao"
Are you getting what you want?
This is actually the guts of what I'm asking, and I don't think the answer is quite as clear as you imply. In the here and now, obviously no because ideally I'd want us to be jumping each other's bones and she'd be all in for MC and talking about moving her stuff back in the house. On the other hand, DR talks about patience, patience, patience and incremental steps towards reconciliation and stuff like 1 month of work for every year of marriage as potentially being needed to bust the divorce (6 months in my sitch)? So, in that light, maybe what "I want" is an unrealistic goal/expectation RIGHT NOW?
If her being warmer is part of a progression towards opening up and trusting me, then yes, maybe I am getting what I want. If it's her putting me in friend category or spinning her wheels to feel good in the short term still separated and not really doing any work, then it's clearly not. Consider that this is the first time we've had a meal together since 2008 where she referred to it as being "me and her" eating out (with our little one in tow) rather than as the family eating out (we didn't get a babysitter once over the last 2 years and have no family in the area). And she also outright REFUSED to even have lunch out with me from Jan. 2010 until today. Her being COMFORTABLE having ANY 1-on-1 time with me (not even sexual, not even attracted, just being COMFORTABLE with ANY 1-on-1 time) was one of the DR "taking stock" baby step goals that I wrote down in late June. I think we are there now (finally). I'm telling you -- our R was/is @$$ broke.
I still think you are one upping her. She is inviting you to lunch with your daughter, you are taking it up a notch and flirting.
I think that her telling you to stop compliments/flirting is putting you back into place as a gay friend.
Ah yes, this gets back to the mirror don't escalate point. If I escalate like the love-starved puppy I am, I scare off the cat. She needs to meow more insistently for me.
So, I guess my question is where does my leading come in? I thought flirting and wooing affirmations was part of the leading and love bucket filling? Or it's just seen as pursuit if it's not MIRRORING something she is doing? If I wait for her to flirt we might be here for years?
MM78, what do you think about the gay friend point of view vs. the me coming on too fast for where she is (overescalating) point of view?
What's YOUR view on this whole love bucket thing?
don't try to fill it with a fire hose
be a sniper, one shot right on target, calculated and with impact
One of Greeks LLs is WOA so she really appreciates thoughtful compliments. The little innuendo about, "What about D2?" Sounded like it was more about you getting some affection - needy and a little childlike. You need to ramp your game up. You are doing OK, just be wise.
If I wait for her to flirt we might be here for years?
Make that a goal. What will it take for her to flirt with you. It's all about attraction. Calling a cat doesnt work, walking the other way interests the cat.
When I was staying over there I also paraded around with my shirt off and wearing boxers that I didnt realize my package was hanging out of and she said she felt violated that I was sitting next to her with my stuff hanging out (she wouldn't feel violated by a gay friend, right?). And when she walked in on me while I was showering, she was nervously checking me out then left. In other words, I think there is something sexual still there, but she is scared or turned off still cause of the trust issues.
Busto,
I'm sorry, but I think your wife has some serious sexual issues and hangups. Was she ever abused when she was younger or anything like that? Her behavior is just WIERD, and I would caution you when she's making statements like what I've bolded above. It is VERY common for a wayward wife to use these kinds of accusations legally against you -- I see it on here all the time.
And Robx, I'd also be curious to know what, specifically, you don't like about Harley's approach.
Puppy
Bustorama cannot fill a love bucket if it has holes in it.
And bustorama, when she saw your "goods", and said she felt violated, yes, that's the gay friend zone, you don't realize that it's ok for her to show off her body to you when you're the "gay" friend because like I said, there is no chance at any sexual activity, but as soon as she senses that there might be sexual pursuit from you, it offends her - it totally proved my point about you being the gay friend, she doesn't expect any sexual activity out of you and when you offer the mere presence of it, she gets offended because you are ruining the gay friend idea she associates with you.
I think that her telling you to stop compliments/flirting is putting you back into place as a gay friend.
WOW,
So this is worse than the "friends" ladder on the "ladder theory". A "Gay" friend is harmless, and would not be looked at as a viable candidate for sexual or intimacy almost EVER.
Also the "gay friend" would allow the female to have stronger "masculine" tendancies around him, so that his would have to minimized to make up for it in Ying/Yang concept...
RobX, how do you think the holes can be plugged?
(OR what do you see as the holes? her sexual hangups? my past infidelity? the past abuse from 1st boyfriend/mother dearest? the fact that she is trying to label me as a (gay) friend)?)
Don't you think all this (gay) friend labeling stuff is ways she might be protecting herself from trust issues?
Man, I could build a palatial log cabin with the 2x4's I'm getting today, hehe.
Coach says I am doing ok overall, but need to step up my (lame) game, stop drowning W in my fire hose of pursuit, and stop being childish and needy.
MM78 tells me I'm still overescalating and one-upping her, bringing condoms to the PTA meeting.
A whole herd of people are telling me I am her emasculated, gay, no chance in a million years friend.
And her love bucket has holes to boot.
Good times!!! Let's see what I can eff up 2nite =) Hehe
I'm curious if ANYONE disagrees with the gay friend assessment.
If not, is the only way out of that to not allow myself to stay in that category (going dimmer and not accepting overtures unless there is clearly some expression in the overture of you are not my gay friend)? The part I struggle with is don't I still have a responsibility to help rebuild trust and make amends for the EA's? Doesn't going dark and "demanding" her to do all the pursuit go against that?
LOL!
Well at least you got a sense of humor about all of this,
women like that quality in men, good job on that ;-)
Hey Busto,
Just thought I'd drop in on your sitch and say hello. Although our sitch's are different, there are some haunting similarities too. I'm really glad to see see the Vets stepping in and throwing the 2x4's and I loved your attitude about receiving them. hahaha.
I've never heard of that "Gay Friend" assessment, but Rob has made one hell of a selling point on it.
I think you can rebuild the trust issues alone just by standing up for yourself and not letting her control you with the T&A show. I mean look how much you are there for her! At some point you have to to ask yourself "what's in it for me?"
I'm only replying since you asked - clearly I'm no expert (see my own sitch) but I am willing to offer you one female's perspective.
Nothing you can do can control how she is going to classify you. She is going to decide if she wants you as a platonic friend or if she views you as something more romantic. She is going to decide where to put you.
All you can do is control your own self. Make yourself a more attractive person to be around - looks and personality. Cologne, dressed nicely, being happy and funny are all attractive features.
The one problem with your sitch though is how to work on YOURSELF FOR YOURSELF and also not lose any trust she has in you because of your past history of EA's. So I don't have any good advice for you, other than don't get too caught up in trying to act a certain way to prevent her from categorizing you - just be the best 'Bustorama' you can be, inside and out. Take care of your appearance, and act in ways that make yourself proud. Clear as mud?
i dont think its the gay friend thing, seems to be more like eww get the mouse back in the house thing....just my .02
Thanks all for the feedback!
Rob and MM, ya I've regained my sense of humor about everything, including the situation. I joke about stuff all the time in my IC too. No matter how things turn out, I know me and the girls will be fine. Some of my single girl friends have commented that my perma-grin "is back."
Faith, ya, I know I shouldn't settle and supplicate for crumbs and standing up for myself can only help myself (and hopefully the R).
MM, love the advice re: being the best, sexiest, proudest bustorama I can be for that sake alone and not towards manipulating an outcome.
DTH, mouse?!?!!? mouse?!?!?! dem's fightin words! hehe
Had fun at the concert with kiddos. W arrived late cause of traffic. Nothing really eventful happened one way or other R-wise. Our D5 is starting kindergarten this year and has her first open house tomorrow so we made plans for that. W called and texted me a few times tonight with stuff related to that and D5's upcoming bday party. She asked me to pick her up on the way to open house. I agreed and whispered sweet nothings in her ear while oiling up her corns and callouses and shellacking her floors.
Seriously though, I'm back to the question of the anniversary dinner date -- Puppy previously said he thought it was an ok thing to do given where we are in our sitch. After all the latest @$$ rubbing, T&A, etc. shenanigans do people still feel the same way? I still feel like it would be "the right" thing to do to recognize our anniversary by asking her out to dinner (though not some over the top romantic hideaway, more like fun cocktails place and cool restaurant scene). One pro of doing this is that if she says no or shows almost no physical affection through the end of the date, I'd also CLEARLY know where things stood and could REALLY focus on myself rather than her or a warming R.
I agreed and whispered sweet nothings in her ear while oiling up her corns and callouses and shellacking her floors.
Make it a date and not a anniversary dinner. Get your mojo on. Be catnip.
Man, I could build a palatial log cabin with the 2x4's I'm getting today, hehe.
Coach says I am doing ok overall, but need to step up my (lame) game, stop drowning W in my fire hose of pursuit, and stop being childish and needy.
MM78 tells me I'm still overescalating and one-upping her, bringing condoms to the PTA meeting.
A whole herd of people are telling me I am her emasculated, gay, no chance in a million years friend.
And her love bucket has holes to boot.
Good times!!! Let's see what I can eff up 2nite =) Hehe
I'm curious if ANYONE disagrees with the gay friend assessment.
If not, is the only way out of that to not allow myself to stay in that category (going dimmer and not accepting overtures unless there is clearly some expression in the overture of you are not my gay friend)? The part I struggle with is don't I still have a responsibility to help rebuild trust and make amends for the EA's? Doesn't going dark and "demanding" her to do all the pursuit go against that?
busto...
What some of us learned the hard way is allowing your wife to cheat on you and allowing her to bully you behind it, and cut you out will eat out of your masculine side...
It literally is as if being put into a "gay" role, where you can help them out, they won't take a step towards you, they will see other males as viable masculine candidates, they will have sex with them, they will not have sex with you and project weakness into you by the way they are looking at you.
Not good. I think robx nailed it, I knew this too.
What some of us learned the hard way is allowing your wife to cheat on you and allowing her to bully you behind it, and cut you out will eat out of your masculine side...
I agree with the above.
However, my wife is not cheating on me. If she was, I would not be speaking to her at all, and I would have already filed for divorce. It's a dealbreaker boundary for me, and I told her this early on.
Where in my sitch do you see my wife "bullying" me?
I don't know many women that are "scared" and "terrified" of opening themselves to their gay best friends???
What I see is her being NEEDY wanting me to help her even while she wants to be separated from me (a bit of cake eating) and me overpursuing her, being oversupplicating and settling for less than I deserve.
Yesterday had open house for my 2 older D's at school. W met us there. I was more social than I was last year and talked with a bunch of people (moms and a few dads) that I had met over the summer while GALing and being out at activities with girls. W was kind of cranky about something that happened to her at coffee shop on way there. I validated and empathized. She eventually left for work, and I took girls for rest of day.
W met us at first soccer practice for D5, where I will be an assistant coach. Met other parents and had fun practice with girls. D5 loved it. W brought Subway sandwiches for us to eat. She was all stressed out when practice ended, said she was freezing. I told her I understood, yeah it was cold, especially since she hadn't been running around. She said she was going to stay while me and D5 ate. She kept complaining about how cold it was, I told her she could leave if she wanted to, but I wanted to eat with D5 there. She keeps saying how cold she is, then it seems that D2 is also getting cold, so I say yeah it's cold why don't we all go. I go to say bye to other parents, W says she doesn't want to and keeps leaving. W acting all agitated the whole way back to cars. Then she asks me if I am upset about something (projection much???). I say, no, I'm doing fine. I ask her how she's feeling and she says she is cold, still seems agitated.
In separate cars, she calls me as we drive away. She again asks me if I was angry about something. I tell her I am not angry, but I am a little annoyed that she is acting agitated towards me, and I'm not sure why. I ask her, "what's up?"
She says that she felt so uncomfortable at the soccer practice with all the other married parents and the perfect moms with their perfect lives. I validate and empathize, tell her I understand how she could feel that way and I could see it would be hard to stay there and socialize feeling that way. I say, but hey that's what our life is right now, and if anyone has a problem with our life that's their problem. I say everyone has problems of some sort and if anyone hassles her or makes her feel uncomfortable, I'm supportive of her.
Later W calls me at home and says she needs to get cupcake cookbook and cupcake tin from house. I say sure I'll leave it on front porch for her so it won't disrupt me getting the D's ready for bed. W comes into house (I apparently left garage door and back door open on way into house). I go downstairs with girls and she starts going off about door being open. I calmly tell her I will close the door, and I would not tolerate her speaking to me like a child. W's eyes start to well up, and I ask her what is up with her? What is going on? She says she is sad, it's not about you or wanting to get back together with you. I say that's fine, I can see she is upset, what's up? She says she is just sad and leaves. Kids start to melt down cause of her coming and going so quickly.
I call her on phone and tell her I am upset that she just came into the house and left the way she did and got the girls all upset, and I did not want her to just come into the house like that again when we agreed about the picking up of the pan. That I would never do the same thing to her at her apartment. W said again about the garage doors being open. She again sounds like she is losing it on phone. I ask her what is going on with her???? She says again she is sad about the married parents and us being broken up. She doesnt want to get back together with me cause she is still so angry at me and hurt. I tell her I understand how hurt and angry she feels, and I apologize for hurting her the way I did with my affairs. I tell her I will call her back after putting kids to bed and she agrees (this has never happened before where she wanted to talk about the EA's after talking about them for even 2-3 minutes).
When I call her back, we talk for about 30 minutes with me validating and empathizing with her hurt and apologizing for different ways that I had hurt her in my EAs. It is by far the longest that we've talked about them since they happened, and with neither of us yelling, just communicating. She tells me that she really feels she wants to get back together but she still has anger and the fear. I validate and empathize and apologize more, mention things I have done to make amends for hurting her (the infidelity books say doing this helps) and she says, yeah I have noticed lots of changes you've made. She says she feels closer to me and trusts me more, but she's not there yet. I mention both a specific MC I have found that helps with intimacy after infidelity that might be useful for us and also bring up the possibility of a retrouvaille weekend. She says she is not ready for that yet, and she also wants to do more healing her way. I tell her I understand and thank her for sharing her feelings with me.
So, from our talk, I really think the discomfort with physical intimacy isn't the gay best friend thing, but the I'm still hurt and angry thing. I saw some good signs in our talk -- that she said she felt closer and safer and wanted to be with me, that she didn't start raging/lashing out/crying even when talking about the EA's directly and could talk about it (so her hurt is a little less), and I was able to communicate with her how sorry I was for hurting her, some of the amends I had made and some possibilities for future healing, without doing it in a begging or pleading fashion. I respected her feelings not to do MC or retrouvaille now and didn't push them at all, just threw them out to her as options for her to empower herself to heal.
These are some of the R talks I think we have to have every now and then towards reconciliation. For now, I will keep focusing on being a fun, attractive, funny, and safe Bustorama - try to make the positives of being with me even more attractive than her fears of being hurt again. Thoughts?
I think that you did fine with the exception of when you mentioned MC and Retro. Wait til she asks about MC. She's been out of your house for 3 months now, and is feeling the loss of attachment.
You need to keep your focus like you said: fun, attractive, funny, safe. She's scared/sad, and she wants someone strong and confident yet humble. If you've read "Hold Onto Your N.U.Ts" it's time to be the Rock.
Tnx for feedback, pinhead =) Ya, I will re-read the Rock section.
I went to outdoor movie in park with girls last night where W joined us. Fun movie and time with girls. Dropped W off at her car. W is stressed out about potential complication from her breast reduction. Called me about it late last night flipping out some, sent me picture of possibly infected suture, and asked me to call her surgeon for her. I have medical background, so I agreed. Surgeon gave instructions and asked for her to move her appointment up to earlier in the week. This is one of those nether region things where some people on the board suggest that my calling for her is "pursuing" and being a marionette or co-dependent or cake-eating. I see it as being helpful (I would do same for any friend, and I have had other people ask me to do same cause of my background). Thoughts?
Fun birthday party day for D5 today. Had a great time with girls and with parents of D5's friends. W and I drove there together with girls. I met some of W's new girl friends from last 6 months that I hadn't met before and actually got along with them. We were cracking up about some stuff. Complimented W's cupcakes to friends, and W seemed pleased. They are really good, I am going to regain all my separation diet weight from eating the leftovers. I spent most of my time there with the girls or with other adults and not so much with W.
Kiddos napping now, and W coming over later to participate in present opening with D5. The "separation" is strange because we seem to be seeing each other so damn much, but it's always in the context of family time. Should have more time to do stuff by myself and for myself in the upcoming week =)
LOL, when you said cupcakes, I thought you were talking about hooters... You can see that I'm seriously deprived!
Is your wife incapable of dialing a phone?
I don't think that was pursuing, since she asked you to call the surgeon, but it's probably because she's still expecting you to make decisions for her. I don't think there's anything wrong with you giving your medical opinion though.
It's weird to try and do NC etc when you have kids that you both participate in raising. The schedule that my W and I had earlier figured out (before this wave of MC) had us seeing each other almost everyday. While that would be good for us in terms of both seeing the girls a lot, I wonder how healthy it would be. At least it would give her lots of opportunities to see your GAL/180s etc.
With my W, lately, hooters are rarely out of sight, out of mind, so I understand the confusion.
Yeah, at earlier points in our separation, there was less contact between us. The increased contact really started with me caregiving for her after the surgery and then has continued in the last couple of weeks with end of summer/start of school/birthday party/other family-related activities. I do think that she has seen changes in me and GAL/180's from the contact (leading to her commenting about how much happier I seemed and she was sorry it had taken her moving out for it to happen). I still never initiate calls, texts or emails to her (unless she starts them), so it's weird there can be so much contact.
I actually wouldn't mind more time for me to work on some of my GAL activities and for her to reflect on our failed M and, perhaps, to miss me. I have had a >50% responsibility for the kiddos the last month because of her surgery recovery and am looking forward to getting back to a more balanced situation. There's also some stuff I need to get done with the house, and some GAL to be caught up on.
This is one of those nether region things where some people on the board suggest that my calling for her is "pursuing" and being a marionette or co-dependent or cake-eating. I see it as being helpful (I would do same for any friend, and I have had other people ask me to do same cause of my background). Thoughts?
Why ask for our thoughts, if you're just going to summarily dismiss them, and keep on pursuing anyway?
(And this time, it was actually "rescuing" more than "pursuing," but still ...)
Knock yourself out.
Puppy
I'm not summarily dismissing, Puppy. I really am looking for discussion/understanding on it because it is something I am struggling with. I really am trying to get clarity on what is the "right" thing to do (not from a "strategic" perspective either, but from a relationship perspective)???
Before I GROSSLY neglected her AND cheated on her -- she tells me she's had enough neglect (and is hurt from the EA) and has had enough. Where we are now is she says she needs more time and space to heal "her way" and separate from me. She is not cheating on me, she is not mentioning divorce, and there has been some warming betwen us. Now, SHE comes to ME looking for help.
1) I hear from one group of people that I should not respond to/"rescue" her. That why would I want to lower myself to helping someone/accepting scraps from someone that is leaving me. That I am not challenging HER to work on the relationship.
2) I hear from another set of people in these threads that LRT/being non-responsive may be a bad idea when neglect has been a driving force in the separation and that the appropriate 180 then is to be responsive. Wouldn't not being helpful when she asks for my help be neglecting her? Especially when I would provide the same help to a non-spouse?
I know this dilemma is not unique to my situation. The same dynamic/potential conflict I've seen in many other sich's on here (pinhead, john, dsh, others I'm sure). I'm sure further discussion of it would help not only me, but others.
Busto,
The problem is that our sitch's really aren't that different, even though we've neglected our wives. All of the WAS feel neglected to some degree.
It's a very fine line we're walking, and though I'm trying something different, I'm starting to see the wisdom in Gucci's path. Not just for me, but for all of us. No matter how strong I appear around W, how attentive I am to our kids, how confident I am, W is still in her fog. And perhaps the only way for that to dissipate is via some sort of separation.
We're all so scared of separation, like it's a curse that'll ruin us forever.
I would focus on doing things for her that she's incapable of doing herself, and make sure those are in RESPONSE to her asking, not you proactively offering the help. That's where I'd recommend drawing the line.
Puppy
I see the great wisdom in what both of you are saying.
Bit of follow-up, relevant to what you said Puppy, something I'd like further input on, an issue/weakness in my wife is that she has low self-esteem and is not assertive in stating her needs/desires (I have the same issue in some respects that I am working on in IC and this dynamic undoubtedly contributed to the deterioration of our relationship). So, she will say something that HINTS at what she wants, but she will not assertively ask for it. She also perceives herself as being incapable of doing certain things that she probably IS capable of or at least SHOULD be capable of (e.g., handyman stuff, calling doctor to discuss medical issues on phone). So, there is this passive-dependence aspect to her.
In the past, when I would not respond to things that she had hinted at and which she PERCEIVED herself as being incapable of doing she would get angry and resentful that I was not responsive to her needs. That I failed to provide her with acts of service. Long-term, I would want us to address and resolve this passive-aggressive, (co)-dependence dynamic. In the short-term, I am unclear whether I should be helping her in RESPONSE to her hints to do things that *I* perceive her as being truly incapable of doing VS. things that I know *SHE* PERCEIVES herself as being incapable of doing based on our history.
Thanks for thoughts!
Thoughts?
W is still in her fog. And perhaps the only way for that to dissipate is via some sort of separation.
Fog occurs when the temperature approaches the dew point. I found that I had control over the amount of heat I was giving off.
Thanks, Coach!
Dropped D9 and D5 off at first day of school. Both were a little nervous but super cute. W came by to pick up D2 and drop her off at daycare and then meet us at school. D5's first day at Kinder and they did like a 1-hr thing with orientation where the parents stayed with them to help them acclimate. We were asked to do a drawing assignment for our kids and enter parent info into computer. I went to enter parent information into computer (10-15 secs), and when I got back W was all bent out of shape that I had "run off" and "left her" to do the assignment "all by herself" that she was bad at art and I had just left her to do it. She was getting all angry and accusatory at me, saying I wasn't doing any of it, etc. I said I was not responsible for her feelings of discomfort. She kept escalating. I calmly told her that I was happy to participate in the art project, that I felt disrespected by the way she was speaking to me, and that I wanted her to stop speaking to me that way. She told me angrily that I had disrespected her for the last 2 years. I told her I understood that she was angry and hurt, and that I was sorry for hurting her. In a much calmer voice, she told me she was still working on it. Rest of orientation she was civil and more friendly and cooperative.
Did I handle this right???
Did I handle this right???
What did her actions tell you?
Ya, she's still got alot of anger, but I think this was good because I established a boundary for myself that she ultimately respected, AND she eventually expressed what was really going on with her and I was able to validate it and apologize for my past crappy behavior.
DIDTHEHURT, are you listening???
OK, so my W just did one of the HINTING things I was referring to before. She just told me that she moved up her follow-up doctor's appointment from Friday to earlier in the week. Based on what she has said and how she has acted in the past, I am almost certain that she wants me to come to the appointment and expects me to offer to go with her. This is her standard MO.
However, she has not (yet?) directly asked me to go with her.
Questions for input/clarification now that there is a concrete example in advance:
1) Would OFFERING to go be perceived as pursuing?
2) Would AGREEING to go if she does eventually ask me directly be perceived as pursuing/supplicating (i.e., "why are you going anywhere with your separated wife other than things that involve the family or that are clear steps on her part towards reconciliation")?
3) Would REFUSING to go, if asked (or not offering to go), be perceived as neglectful/failing in supportive H role?
If I understand Puppy correctly, he would refuse to go even if asked (can you confirm Puppy?). Any explanation with refusal? Too busy?
Later W calls me at home and says she needs to get cupcake cookbook and cupcake tin from house. I say sure I'll leave it
Continuing to enable the Betty Crocker in her!
I have been reading along. You seem to understand the recipe you just can't mix the ingredients together with the correct consistency. I don't see you being in either the "gay friend zone" (DEE-DEE dee-dee DEE-DEE dee-dee . . . ) or in last resort technique. More so, you are a wayward with a codependent wife. A recipe for disaster. The question should be: how do break this cycle of fattening treats? With apple wedges, celery sticks and peanut butter, cottage cheese?
Just something new and healthy.
Do you notice, from your first post:
April 23. I did the common begging/pleading/promising/pursuing to change/crying/etc. mistakes throughout May
that you are still doing this? Again, realize, it is time for something healthy and new.
People like to say, it is hard to get back what you lost; but truth is you never really do. People like to say, I don't want the old marriage back; I want a new and better marriage with my wife. That is a crock of goulash. If you notice so many men that write that are the same men that still beg and plead and analyze every word and act out in passive/aggressive behaviors when they do not get what they want in the time frame they decide upon. Its just a different Act in the Play (if you notice their behavior is not much different than the descriptions for the reasons their wives gave up on them in the first place) not new actors or a different Play.
They find themselves in a perpetual cycle of Betty Crockerisms.
The key, and especially in your case, is to allow your wife to find herself. She is begging for it but you give her so many reasons to return to the cook book, frustrated, and try to come up with a new and different way to bake it.
You sought and found yourself. Maybe it wasn't the best man you taught you could be, or the man your wife wanted to be married to, but you took the time to explore who you are. Does your wife not deserve the same opportunity?
OK, so my W just did one of the HINTING things I was referring to before. She just told me that she moved up her follow-up doctor's appointment from Friday to earlier in the week. Based on what she has said and how she has acted in the past, I am almost certain that she wants me to come to the appointment and expects me to offer to go with her. This is her standard MO.
However, she has not (yet?) directly asked me to go with her.
Questions for input/clarification now that there is a concrete example in advance:
1) Would OFFERING to go be perceived as pursuing?
2) Would AGREEING to go if she does eventually ask me directly be perceived as pursuing/supplicating (i.e., "why are you going anywhere with your separated wife other than things that involve the family or that are clear steps on her part towards reconciliation")?
3) Would REFUSING to go, if asked (or not offering to go), be perceived as neglectful/failing in supportive H role?
If I understand Puppy correctly, he would refuse to go even if asked (can you confirm Puppy?). Any explanation with refusal? Too busy?
Hi Busto,
Answer to your questions...
1) YES - Pursuing and enabling
2) You don't need to to do this ALL THE TIME. In fact, based on how much you do for her, you need to let her find herself a bit. Steve is right on her co-dependency. Ask yourself WHY you need to be there? If your answer is because you neglected her and you feel obligated...(BUZZZZZ) WRONG. She's a big girl, she doesn't need you there. It's a test to see how available you are. Not "Rock" like material.
3) NO...in fact as long as you're not rude, lie, or wishy washy as to your reason...you would actually shock her and make her wonder something different for a change. Your delivery of the answer should be an honest, loving, and reasonable statement of WHY you don't need to be there. Make sense? Maybe somebody else can add to this...I can't put it into words very well.
Just my opinion Busto.
Do you notice, from your first post:
April 23. I did the common begging/pleading/promising/pursuing to change/crying/etc. mistakes throughout May
that you are still doing this? Again, realize, it is time for something healthy and new.
Tell it to me like a 3rd grader. Which behaviors am I initiating most recently that constitute this (asides from the earlier a$$rubbing, back massaging, footrubbing, tea making)? Are you saying that my responding to her calls essentially constitutes pursuit? That I need to go full blown WAS on her and tell her to leave me alone? That I think I need some time and space to work on myself and figure out who I am and what I want in life?
The key, and especially in your case, is to allow your wife to find herself. She is begging for it but you give her so many reasons to return to the cook book, frustrated, and try to come up with a new and different way to bake it.
Can you tell me concretely which behaviors on my part do you see as keeping her unable to separate from me? Any rescuing behavior on my part? You suggest, I tell her something like, You know W, I appreciate that you trust me to help you, and I am happy to help you in cases where I think you really need my help. However, I believe in you and think you may be underestimating yourself and can handle this issue just fine on your own. I think I may be better off stepping back and working on myself to give you the time and space to find what you want.
??????
Thanks much for your insight, Faith. I really appreciate it.
Not gonna believe this, but W just called me again saying she was in pain, and could I come over and take out the trash. Then she asked me if I could go with her to the doctor appointment. THEN she started saying how sad and depressed she was and how horrible she felt and started listing a host of things she was unhappy with -- her weight, the outcome of her boob reduction, the fact she can't exercise while she is recovering, her increased appetite, her excessive workload, her lack of any leisure time or rest time, all the effort of parenting the kids on her own, her therapist not being helpful for her. HOLY COW, SHE'S A MESS!
I told her yeah I would feel depressed too if I was experiencing those same frustrations. Then I told her I hoped she felt better and I would see her tomorrow at our family party for D5's birthday and ended the convo. Tried to empathize, but not play the rescuer role. Is that more what she needs from me??? Thoughts???
Thanks much for your insight, Faith. I really appreciate it.
Not gonna believe this, but W just called me again saying she was in pain, and could I come over and take out the trash. Then she asked me if I could go with her to the doctor appointment. THEN she started saying how sad and depressed she was and how horrible she felt and started listing a host of things she was unhappy with -- her weight, the outcome of her boob reduction, the fact she can't exercise while she is recovering, her increased appetite, her excessive workload, her lack of any leisure time or rest time, all the effort of parenting the kids on her own, her therapist not being helpful for her. HOLY COW, SHE'S A MESS!
I told her yeah I would feel depressed too if I was experiencing those same frustrations. Then I told her I hoped she felt better and I would see her tomorrow at our family party for D5's birthday and ended the convo. Tried to empathize, but not play the rescuer role. Is that more what she needs from me??? Thoughts???
I don't know if you read my thread tonight, but when I mentioned "small talk"...this meant...I asked her Did you take the dogs for a run" ... her answer "No, I'm not feeling good"...of course I asked "What's wrong? Are you sick?"..."No, my stomach is upset from my period"...my comments "Oh".."Sorry to hear that". She plays her sympathy card with me constantly...but yet she's not "sick, or feeling well" on the weekends. She wants you to be there for the empathy, because of the fact YOU weren't there before.
If you don't stand up and tell her NO you will constantly be at her call. You get what I'm saying? You are a fixer as I am, you feel guilty and care enough to be there, but if you don't cut the rope enough, it will bite you in the ass
Don't get me wrong Busto. You and I are not that far apart...but you have to at one point accept your mistakes and let them go. I'm in NO way encouraging you to break off contact, I truly wish I had what you have right now. However, Be a "Rock"...let her know that you will be there for encouragement, NOT a resolve for HER Probs. Know what I mean?
I told her yeah I would feel depressed too if I was experiencing those same frustrations. Then I told her I hoped she felt better and I would see her tomorrow at our family party for D5's birthday and ended the convo. Tried to empathize, but not play the rescuer role. Is that more what she needs from me???
YES.
Are you saying you DIDN'T go over and take the trash out for her? What about going with her to her dr's appt.??
I'm a little confused.
Puppy
Tell it to me like a 3rd grader.
A visit to the farm market, the produce section, health food store. When she regains movement in her arms, a physical activity, tennis, or a martial arts school that has a family program, swimming at the Y.
Break the cycle.
Insecurities, inadequacy, negative and unhealthy emotions. Control.
I used to complain when she would bake desserts and harp on her about it -- that "she" was making me fat and criticize her for baking so much. This was dumb of me in so many ways because she loves to bake as a way to stress relief for herself, because I could control myself (rather than her), and because the foods she makes are gestures of affection for us and the kids.
Codependent relationship?
I told her yeah I would feel depressed too if I was experiencing those same frustrations. Then I told her I hoped she felt better and I would see her tomorrow at our family party for D5's birthday and ended the convo. Tried to empathize, but not play the rescuer role. Is that more what she needs from me???
YES.
Are you saying you DIDN'T go over and take the trash out for her? What about going with her to her dr's appt.??
I'm a little confused.
Puppy
Right, no trash and didn't commit to doctor's appointment one way or other (it's at 4 pm today, and I had said I wasn't sure if I would go) and then she immediately launched into all the other ways she felt bad. She was listing her 'feel bads' so fast from the start of the convo I barely had time to say ANYTHING other than my empathizing at end and then getting off phone.
I am torn about the doctor's appointment because I WOULD like to hear from the doctor where HE thinks she should be in her recovery and is medically capable of doing. Thoughts?
I am torn about the doctor's appointment because I WOULD like to hear from the doctor where HE thinks she should be in her recovery and is medically capable of doing. Thoughts?
Then go. When it suits YOUR needs, then do it. And if it coincides with a "Right Thing to Do," all the better.
I think medical appts. are an exception to "pursuing"/"rescuing," generally anyway.
Puppy
Tell it to me like a 3rd grader.
A visit to the farm market, the produce section, health food store. When she regains movement in her arms, a physical activity, tennis, or a martial arts school that has a family program, swimming at the Y.
[/quote]
Do you mean these activities literally or figuratively? That *I* invite her to farmer's market and to physical activities?
I've been wanting to do that for awhile -- invite her to tennis, golf, spin classes, because they are things we both enjoy, and she is an athletic girl at her core, but the surgery is in the way. Isn't that pursuit though????
There is a farmer's market near us that she loves but hasn't gone to in ages. She always is so excited after she goes there with the cool fresh stuff she finds. Are you suggesting I invite her to that???
Or are you suggesting these things figuratively as representing a different relationship dynamic?
Thinking about this a bit more, do you mean generally that the unhealthy thing going on is us doing "nice" things covertly for each other in terms of hoping to manipulate the other person's emotions towards us instead of being overt about inviting the other person to participate in together time with us in something we both enjoy doing (together)?
Thinking about this a bit more, do you mean generally that the unhealthy thing going on is us doing "nice" things covertly for each other in terms of hoping to manipulate the other person's emotions towards us instead of being overt about inviting the other person to participate in together time with us in something we both enjoy doing (together)?
Not sure to whom you're directing that question, Busto, but no, that's not what I'm trying to convey. The distinctions I'm trying to make are more of AMPLITUDE than of CONTENT. Just to "go slow" and not "go all melty man" on her, as that tends to scare them off.
SLOW and STEADY.
Puppy
OK, thanks Puppy.
Today, I sent my W 3 dozen flowers and some chocolates and got a mariachi band to go to her work and sing her Candela and I am filing her toenails at her lunch hour and brought her some sushi I rolled for her. Then I texted her a few times and when she didn't respond I called her and cried some and told her FROM MY HEART that I had changed. I e-mailed her a list of 500 doctors and massage therapists she could look into for herself and told her I could drive her to any appointments. I offered to scrub her toilet (with a toothbrush like she likes) and said I didn't mind canceling my plans with my friends cause she was worth it. She patted me on the back and said she felt closer to me.
I'm a little tired, not sure why I feel dissatisfied. Maybe I should try harder. Let her know how I *REALLY* feel. That I will do *ANYTHING* for her.
Seriously, though, wrt Steve McQ's suggestions (farmer's market, joint workouts, etc. -- if I am reading them correctly), isn't me inviting her to come to ANYTHING that doesn't involve the kids/family experienced as pursuit??? I haven't invited her to ANYTHING I do without the kids since we've been separated.
OK, thanks Puppy.
Today, I sent my W 3 dozen flowers and some chocolates and got a mariachi band to go to her work and sing her Candela and I am filing her toenails at her lunch hour and brought her some sushi I rolled for her. Then I texted her a few times and when she didn't respond I called her and cried some and told her FROM MY HEART that I had changed. I e-mailed her a list of 500 doctors and massage therapists she could look into for herself and told her I could drive her to any appointments. I offered to scrub her toilet (with a toothbrush like she likes) and said I didn't mind canceling my plans with my friends cause she was worth it. She patted me on the back and said she felt closer to me.
I'm a little tired, not sure why I feel dissatisfied. Maybe I should try harder. Let her know how I *REALLY* feel. That I will do *ANYTHING* for her.
Seriously, though, wrt Steve McQ's suggestions (farmer's market, joint workouts, etc. -- if I am reading them correctly), isn't me inviting her to come to ANYTHING that doesn't involve the kids/family experienced as pursuit??? I haven't invited her to ANYTHING I do without the kids since we've been separated.
LOL
OK, thanks Puppy.
Today, I sent my W 3 dozen flowers and some chocolates and got a mariachi band to go to her work and sing her Candela and I am filing her toenails at her lunch hour and brought her some sushi I rolled for her. Then I texted her a few times and when she didn't respond I called her and cried some and told her FROM MY HEART that I had changed. I e-mailed her a list of 500 doctors and massage therapists she could look into for herself and told her I could drive her to any appointments. I offered to scrub her toilet (with a toothbrush like she likes) and said I didn't mind canceling my plans with my friends cause she was worth it. She patted me on the back and said she felt closer to me.
I'm a little tired, not sure why I feel dissatisfied. Maybe I should try harder. Let her know how I *REALLY* feel. That I will do *ANYTHING* for her.
Seriously, though, wrt Steve McQ's suggestions (farmer's market, joint workouts, etc. -- if I am reading them correctly), isn't me inviting her to come to ANYTHING that doesn't involve the kids/family experienced as pursuit??? I haven't invited her to ANYTHING I do without the kids since we've been separated.
I almost pissed myself. You sir, have the best sense of humor amongst all the forum denizens.
Hey Busto, how you doing?
OK, so I haven't posted anything in awhile. Here are some updates in my sitch.
1) Had a good joint celebration of D5's birthday party for friends with W and other friends
2) Had a mild fight at D5's "family" b-day party because I almost reneged on agreement to take care of kids while W attended funeral for friend's mom (I had a rare tool moment). I apologized, but unfortunately when I later that night asked W out for anniversary she turned me down. She said she "wasn't up to that yet." Then she said she "she was sorry and wanted to run away" and "felt so anxious." I told her I understood those were her feelings, no worries and changed the subject to something else.
3) Next day W called me apologizing for saying no and said that she had said no cause she had shut down with the fight, that it triggered a flashback of our bad times. I tried to validate. We got off phone and a bit later she calls me back again crying and saying how angry she was at me. That she felt she didn't know who I really was, that there had been the guy she met, and then the "mean" me, and now the "new, nice changed" me and she didn't know which was the real me. I told her I got how this would be very stressful and anxiety provoking for her. I told her I am who I am now and a work in progress. Told her that I felt I was the same fun-loving guy that she first met at my core, but with more life experience, wisdom and better sense of self and relationships.
4) W went to therapy and told me her therapist thought she had aspects of post-traumatic stress disorder that led her to expect and re-experience anxiety even when nothing much was going on in her present environment to justify it. W went back on antidepressants (I think this is her 2nd week back on them).
5) This past week, W told me that she never wanted to go back to feeling out of control, desperate, unable to get out of a bad situation, etc. etc. I nodded and told her I could see why she never wanted to be in a situation like that again, and I never wanted her to feel like that again. I also told her I also never wanted to feel depressed and yelled at again and said I thought it would take a leap of faith for each of us to re-enter any relationship that things would be different, but that I had been working on myself to ensure that my next relationship, whether with her or someone else, would be better.
6) I've been doing lots of GALing and socializing. Joined a running club, lots of time working out at gym, went out for poker night with soem buds, fun happy hours meeting new friends and flirting with singles. I even flirted with my dental hygienist today, lol. Monday night I met a new buddy at Monday Night Football and we spent most of the night chatting up these 3 lovelies from Ireland that were eating it up til 3 am. Tonight I went to happy hour with the running club and stayed after talking to these 2 cuties from the group. One invited me to come running with her on Friday. Definitely felt attractive and some good mojo charging. I'm probably going to commit to running a half-marathon in January (I've run marathons before, but hadn't run at all in the last 3 years up until a couple of weeks ago, so this would be a pretty big goal). I also took my girls camping this last weekend with some buddies and their daughters. Had a great time. Also took D5 to friend's birthday party and socialized with the other parents there. I have a bunch of home projects I want to get going on this coming week. The GAL is going well overall especially this past week, and helping me feel good about myself.
7) W has stopped with the co-dependent requests for help as she's healed more from her surg. She did ask me to help her put some drapes up in her place a couple of weekends ago, which I agreed to and which she seemed real grateful about (she has no clue about any handyman stuff). She asked me if I wanted to stay and watch some True Blood with her afterwards and I watched a couple of episodes then she gave me a DVD from season 1 and said I should watch it and catch up so we could talk about it. I still am not initiating phoning, texting or emailing her. Her contact to me has decreased some from the period during which she was recovering. Still, when it's there, it is a friendlier, less tension-filled vibe than it was in July. No more of the hugs, but I think that may not mean much because perhaps they were just "friend" hugs before anyway. Today, she asked me if I wanted to join her and D's for sushi after we watched D5 in her dance class. I said yeah but then cut out early to go to my running group. We had fun talking at dance class and at sushi. She looks fabulous and I want to do all kinds of naughty things with her, but she's so not there.
I'm so not sure what is in her mind still. It doesn't seem that she is giving any thought to D right now, but she also doesn't want to actively work on the R. It's like she says right now she wants to live her life -- "work on her self, 'heal' from the past, and do family time with me -- and maybe see if her anger and anxiety directed at me subside.
I'd appreciate thoughts from others on if I should just keep staying the GAL, LRT-like course; or if I should play hardball and file for divorce (I don't think so, because I am not to that point yet and I also am not convinced it is what she wants so it wouldn't be a loving thing to do).
An alternative would be to do a 180 and be more involved in her day-to-day life by initiating non-R talk from the perspective that it's not clear that LRT is "working" to draw her in. She is sort of addicted to facebook and spends most of her free time chatting on facebook or surfing facebook. I think LRT isn't that effective with her now because I think she turns to FB to satisfy her need for emotional connection.
I'm having fun GALling and flirting with all these people, but at the end of the day, I'd rather be spending this time flirting with my W. She's just not there (yet?). Is the GAL/LRT/leave her alone and walk my own way still the best way to live?
Quick update. W called me this AM in panic mode saying that D's were driving her crazy and she was going to be late for work and she couldn't find anything for D5's school picture day. After blurting this out, she said omg it's not going to work, I don't have enough time and hung up. She called back a few minutes later and asked me to come over to help. I agreed and brought over a couple of outfits to choose from for D5. I helped get girls ready for school and dropped off D2 at her daycare.
While I was at W's place and D's were going a lil crazy, W asked me if I was getting mad at her for having to be over there while girls were going crazy (part of her anxiety towards me is that I will snap angrily at her or be "mean" her memory of the "mean" me). I havent been that way since the S and said, no way, that dude's long gone. I told her I thought alot of that irritability before was because I was always sleep deprived and addicted to the computer game, so my focus was on the game instead of the world and I would get annoyed when anything would distract me from the game. I also was depressed which made me more irritable. I don't feel like that at all anymore, but I guess W doesn't fully see it yet OR doesn't trust that it is there for keeps (I guess she's starting to notice the change when she referred to the "new" me in that conversation, but I guess she still doesn't fully trust it).
W called me up afterwards thanking me and saying she would repay the favor this afternoon by watching girls so I could do something I needed to do. Parent night tonight at the school...
Is my behavior here considered bad cause it is the "rescue" variety? This is the one I have the most trouble with because it involves the D's. If I had not gone over there, the D's would have been late to school for sure and D5 would have looked crappy for her pic day. I also get W's help for tonight on my end, so I am getting something in return as well. I'm also being responsive to W's request for help instead of initiating doing stuff for her hoping it will get me something in return (affection/co-dependency). Thoughts?
OK, I would really love some advice. I've tried to stop and take a grand re-inventory of things now that W has recovered from her surgery.
BAD FOR R
---------
My W continues not to act at all spousal and following WAS script.
1) Physically separated
2) Still unwilling to do MC, retro, regular time together as couple to try to reconnect or work out our issues
3) Refused offer to go out for anniversary
4) Most basis for interaction between us is family-related
5) No physical affection
6) She spends her bit of leisure time mostly chatting with "new friends," on FB, a couple of which are immature guys.
7) Justifies her current behavior due to her anger, anxiety, and hurt at me for past EA's and past neglectful, controlling, and irritable behavior on my part.
GOOD OR GOOD POTENTIAL FOR R
----------------------------
1) Level of W anger and anxiety now is much less than in May/June/July.
2) I am personally in a WAY better place than I was in April as individual and in relationships with friends and kiddos.
3) W has not mentioned D since April or May. Has said to other people that she would eventually like to work things out and doesn't want to get divorced.
4) W has commented on noticing that I am happier and that I have changed (but I think uncertain as to whether it is real or lasting)
So there are a couple of specific issues I am struggling with.
1) One concerns finances. Right now, we still have joint account and shared credit cards, so I am effectively helping W pay for her rent in her apartment and her extra-rent activities. i.e., I am helping finance the separation.
I have been paying because I had promised her quite awhile ago when we were together that if she ever became so unhappy that she wanted to leave the R that I would help her financially because she was quitting her job to be SAHM and because even now that she has rejoined workforce her salary is still half mine and less than it would otherwise have been. So, I helped her financially in furnishing the place and with these first (going on 4-5) months of rent now.
I am now torn on whether I should continue to do this until the lease runs out (1 year) or stop at some earlier point. It's the tradeoff that I am enabling the separation and ongoing spousal CB, but on the other hand I did make a promise to her that I would help her if she ever became so unhappy....
2) The second concerns if it's time for me to really drop the rope more than I have been doing (e.g., reduce the amount of family together time, decline her invitation to spend my Thanksgiving with her and her visiting family, etc.) and move on with my own separate life vs. continue at my current level of detachment/GAL
Yep, you pay her rent, run to help her every time she calls, and she doesn't respect you.
I am now torn on whether I should continue to do this until the lease runs out (1 year)
You plan on financing her seperation for a year? !!
Stop helping her with the bills. Get some sort of formal agreement in place if you are not ready to file but STOP helping her with bills and tasks. You are giving her the best of both worlds so why *would* she want to change anything?
Ever stop to think why you are good enough to pay her bills and do her handyman work but you are NOT good enough to go to dinner with or talk to?
Her saying she "eventually" might want to work on things is a fancy way of saying if nothing else pans out or her financial situation worsens she might give you another shot.
Marriage is not about "eventually". You are in or out. If you are out that's cool but gone are the perks of marriage (help, support, money).
Have you talked to a L to know how this "support" you are giving her now would look if you do get a D?
Yep, you pay her rent, run to help her every time she calls, and she doesn't respect you.
OK, thanks for your feedback, Coach. I do feel that me financially contributing to the separation is (now) crossing one of my boundaries. I will not finance the continued destruction of our R or M.
I also feel I have fulfilled my earlier promise to her of not holding her hostage in the marriage on a financial basis -- I helped her get some furniture and starters for rent, but now it's time for her to put her BGP on.
1) Taking her off my credit cards
2) Opening separate account for my paychecks -- question of how much of remaining marital assets to pull into my own account? Leave 1 month's rent to give her time to adapt/rebudget?
3) Need to figure out how much (if any) I should contribute from here forward to her monthly due to potential alimony or child custody issues (but we are 50/50 in our kids?). I guess I need to see L about this, but any informal guidance here? Where are the calculators for CA?
Re: the helping with kids, you think she doesn't respect me because I respond to her calls to help with the kids? What is the argument NOT to help with the kids (I see it as I'm their Dad, and they are my responsibility regardless of where they are rather than it is something I am doing in as an H). Help me see your thinking here. Or is it because it's a psychological thing to see if she can still puppeteer/control me -- that I am "available" to her?
Busto,
I would drop the rope, financially and personally. She's not ready to reconcile. Plus with so many joint family events, she's not really carrying her weight with raising your daughters. As her call to you showed, she is struggling with that. Not your responsibility. Also, sure you promised her to help out. Things change, and you're not obligated to support her forever.
Remember, she chose this path. She can choose to come back as well.
The brutal reality of being seperated and having space is that you are not available when there is a non-life threatening issue with the kids. It's cake-eating. Wants all the perks of being married without the responsiblity of being a wife.
Do you think she would tolerate you behaving this way? She can't be attracted to you if she doesn't respect you.
Do not make any financial moves until you talk to an attny.
CA is very stringent w/calculations and it's all done via software (IOW there is no wiggle room, the calculations are what they are).
If you only give her a month to "get on her feet" I can almost bet she will see an attny and get some formal framework in place.
See an attny - YOU take the lead on the framework and go from there. You can't just go moving assets w/o structure - it won't look good for you.
For ANYBODY reading this - if your spouse leaves you the FIRST thing you do is get a financial structure in place. A formal one. Period.
I am now torn on whether I should continue to do this until the lease runs out (1 year)
You plan on financing her seperation for a year? !!
Yeah, it's hogwild crazy talk isn't it? I guess I'm just sort of waking up from the denial stage.
I agree with you guys I need to stop this, see a L to understand the long-term ramifications (if D) of any current support, and also find what I am legally obligated to support at the moment.
I also agree with you guys that why would she NOT continue the sep when she can cake eat. She has a loser friend that is in a similar situation where her baby's daddy is helping pay for the friend's apartment even though they were never married, and the W is now a cougar bar-hopping hoebag. I shake my head at it, but really how different is my current sitch now....
QUESTION ON RINGS
So I figure this question may have different answers for different people, but I've wondered how LBS see the issue of wearing their rings. My WAS has had hers off since April. To date, I have continued to wear mine reflecting my commitment to our M. An outward sign of my commitment to and ultimate confidence in our M.
However, I have been struggling with continuing to wear it over the last few weeks for a few reason. One is that the rings, to me, also reflect a mutual commitment each of us gave to the other and if she is not presently committed to working on the R and our issues then there presently is no mutual commitment. A second related issue is who am I having an R/M with if she is not wearing hers? Myself?? A final one is couldn't continuing to wear the ring even be perceived as an implicit sign of pursuit and of clinginess/neediness? Happy for any input on how others see/saw this in their situation.
UPDATE
Took D2 to toddler gymnastic class Sat AM then did the assistant coach thing for my D5's team on Saturday (she and they did great!). Afterwards, went to D5 ballet class. Crazy Sat AM. At some point during these activities, W (who comes to the activities separately) said to me that she didn't want me to think that she didn't think about moving back in. She said she was thinking about it all the time, really alot lately. I said "uh huh." Then she said that there would need to be alot of changes in the house to get rid of the bad associations she had with it. I said, "Tell me more about what you mean." Then she listed off a bunch of remodeling things she would want to do including knocking down a pony wall, that it would need to look physically different but she loved the location of the house and the lot and didn't want us to just get a new house. I said, well, if it ever came to it, that would be something I'd be willing to discuss with her, that I was all about knocking down walls. Then she said something like she wasn't there yet and she wasn't sure if she ever would be. I then changed the subject.
She later asked me if I would fill up her car with gas for her cause it was low, and I said no way, girl, you got two legs and kind of laughed at her. Then she said (kidding sort of flirting) that she hated me and went to go fill it up herself.
That night I went out with one of my buds and a couple of his friends downtown. We had a few beers then went to some club where we met these really cute girls in town from Arizona who were having a bachelorette party. Flirted, played, and danced with them most of the night. Loads of fun. Ridiculous to get 1000x as much affection, flirting, and attention from 20- and 30-something girls you just meet as compared to your W.
This AM I took D2 and D5 to their swimming lessons. At the "switch," W invited me to go grocery shopping with her and said I could "help control the little ones." I said no, I was busy. Then she asked me if I could drop off a pie mold and rolling pin from the house on my way to where I was going, and I said fine. Dropped them off and she asked me to have lunch with her and the girls. I started to eat some leftovers real quick out of a tupperware, and she starts telling me about something a (guy) friend of hers said to her that morning that bothered her. This is one of the guys on FB that she talks alot with and that I have wondered sort of has an EA (but not sexual) quality to it. I guess the guy has a new girlfriend and he was telling my W that he and the girlfriend felt sorry for my W's current job situation. My W said it made her feel real angry and like put down and she was real pissed at him and he was acting like a snotty tool. I basically validated her feelings and told her I thought what she did was very worthwhile and important and that she was great at it. That I was proud of her and respected the choices she had made in her career. She thanked me for listening to her with all kinds of eye contact. Then I said I had to go. She followed me out and kept saying thanks with a sweet tone to her voice.
Went and met friends and played poker and watched football the rest of the afternoon. Going to workout now.
That I was proud of her and respected the choices she had made in her career. She thanked me for listening to her with all kinds of eye contact. Then I said I had to go. She followed me out and kept saying thanks with a sweet tone to her voice.
Bust-
Good job keeping your composure.
One point though The use of the word proud should be used for the kids. You need to be your W's cheerleader, so to speak.
Saying happy for you or a great choice would have beemn more appropriate.
All good though.
gr8
Thanks for the pointer. Yeah, I actually was searching for a different word at the time but couldnt find it.
Hey Busto,
Expect more of the same from your wife; she'll keep taking your temperature to see if you're going to be a safe fallback.
Sounds like a great weekend with your daughters, and with the 'Zona babes.
Don't read into the ring thing. Do what you feel is the right thing to do.
Me personally, I never wore my ring during the entire marriage except when we went out to family functions. I am not a jewelry guy. I just disn't wear any jewlery at all.
I didn't need a ring to remind me of what M was.
I never cheated or thought about cheating.
Where's Steve McQueen when you need him? My Betty Crocker W just sent me cell pic of the pie she baked. Too funny.
Questions in anticipation
There are some upcoming situations on which I would like advice.
1) WEDDING: Cousin of W is getting married at end of November (Thanksgiving week). W is going to be a bridesmaid in the wedding. Our D's will be flower girls. I anticipate that she may ask me to come. I have mixed feelings on going. On the one hand, I would like to celebrate her cousin's wedding (I know her well), see the rest of W's family coming in from out of town, and see the girls be flower girls. It also could be a lot of fun to attend a wedding with W *IF* she treats it as a real date. On the other hand, I wouldn't be interested in attending if it's basically to serve as a babysitter for the girls while W socializes with family or for W to treat me as more a friend than a date. Input on how to handle?
2) HOLIDAYS: With Thanksgiving and Christmas approaching, there's the question of how to handle things from the family perspective. Obviously each of us would like to spend the holidays with the girls, but spending them together as a "family" (but without us reconciled or working actively towards reconciliation) seems wrong. Input/advice?
I forgot to mention re: holidays that our respective families (parents/siblings/etc.) live in different cities thousands of miles apart from where we live and from the other city. W mentioned something about her family being in town for the wedding and they were thinking of having a Thanksgiving at the wedding hotel and I would be welcome to come, but something interrupted the conversation right at that moment so nothing more has been said about that.
Busto,
re the wedding: if she's not dating you now, is it realistic to expect her to be treating the wedding like a date with you? If not, then you know what to do.
re the holidays: I wouldn't spend the holidays together unless you're working on reconciling. She needs to see the cost of what a separation is. Figure out some reasonable split of Thanksgiving and Christmas...
Thanks for the advice!
UPDATE
1) Opened up my own bank account
2) Lawyer consultation tomorrow re: finance arrangement
3) Today one of my employees/friends disclosed to me that she is now a WAW from her husband (who is also a work colleague of mine). Her H had disclosed to me yesterday that there was crap going on between them and he wasn't sure what would happen between them. I talked to his W about her feelings and her sitch and it turns out that she is in the midst of a long-distance E-affair with some guy in another state that she met while he was visiting here and they are going to separate and potentially divorce (she is not sure yet). Her H is aware of this. She is 100% WAW script in her feelings and thoughts. She was talking about moving to be where OM is or OM perhaps moving to here and starting new life. I could almost see the fog in her eyes. It was enlightening for me to be able to talk to her and get a real sense of what my W is/was feeling (especially at the outset of our sitches). Her H also is apparently in the midst of 180's (his bomb was last week) and she said how it pissed her off that it only happened now and she didn't trust the changes. I validated her hurt, resentment and anger, but also suggested that she take a deep breath and slow things down so that she could make any decisions she made from a calmer place. I suggested she consider getting a counselor for herself and an attorney, that she put her R with OM on the backburner while she tried to sort out her feelings re: H and their M, that she begin doing pleasurable/rewarding activities for herself, and that she read some books on R's in trouble to help her sort through her feelings. She asked me to suggest some. Should I give her DR or are there other ones that would be useful/helpful to a WAW in need? Her main stated complaints against him are that he drinks too much, that he is controlling, that he hasn't listened to her or her needs, and that he doesn't respect her thoughts, feelings or actions.
4) Neighbors had me and the D's over for dinner yesterday. Fun time hanging out with them and my D's played with their kiddos.
5) Went running with my running club Monday and today PM. My mileage is coming up and my body's remembering the old routine. Love the feeling.
6) W called me yesterday AM and late PM to vent about some stuff related to her work. I listened and validated and tried to be supportive. She thanked me for listening each time. She also called me this PM on her way home from work. She asked me if I wanted to go to dinner (sushi) with her and the girls. I said it sounded like fun, but I was on my way to go running and hoped they had a good time. Then she called me like 2-3 minutes later just to tell me that our D2 had written a W and said, look mama, a W. She's either missing the family vibe or me today, I guess. With an emphasis on today... =) It's not wrong of me to validate her and listen to her when she calls is it? Should I just drop bombs on her? STOP CALLING ME, WOMAN! I'M SO DONE! I'M OVER IT!
7) Doing craptons of laundry right now. Holy hell where does it all come from.
8) Tomorrow is shower regrout day.
Overall, feeling pretty happy right now =)
Busto,
You need to go to Tony's Jacal. It's a great little Mexican joint in Solana Beach. My family has been going there for 5 generations.
Busto,
You sound good, and -- more importantly -- I like your plan(s).
Keep it up!!
Puppy
It's not wrong of me to validate her and listen to her when she calls is it? Should I just drop bombs on her? STOP CALLING ME, WOMAN! I'M SO DONE! I'M OVER IT!
Overall, feeling pretty happy right now =)
LMAO.
Keep up the good work bud.
So, again, haven't updated in a couple of weeks.
1) I'm on the alt now if anyone else is there. Easy to find me (BUSTO)
2) Finances are separated. W got mad/sad about this, but oh well.
3) Keeping on doing my own thing / not initiating stuff with W. For my half-marathon training, I signed up with my running team as part of a fund-raiser for liver disease. We had a meeting for it last night (with taco bar =) ). If anyone is interested in contributing a little tax-deductible something to an extremely worthy cause, please contact me on the alt. My running had a little setback last week cause I think I had ramped up mileage a little fast, but I backed off this week and tendon has settled down. Fun people in the running group =) One of the cute girls in the group I met a few weeks ago keeps inviting me to stuff. I'm not interested in dating now, but it's flattering.
4) Went to rodeo (lol) with friend and his kiddos. Great time.
5) Going to have neighbors over for dinner and playing with girls this wknd.
6) Got bids and ordered new windows/sliders installed on house (to be followed by new shutters, new front door and some new chandeliers/lamps). They should be in mid-November. W seems interested in the fact that I am changing things up in house (I told her my plans and asked her if she wanted to participate in decisions or not). She seems to have mixed feelings about it -- happy that I am changing house, angry that I didn't take time previously to work on it when she wanted to.
7) Things between W and me are still in limboland. Last wknd was interesting. Friday night, W invited me to have sushi with her and girls. Two things of sake and lots of laughing. After sushi, I had friend over for a couple of beers and talking about his R issues.
Then on Saturday, after D's soccer game, W invited me to go shopping at Macy's to get more clothes for me "cause she had a coupon." (this was strange/unexpected to me because I couldn't think of any way that it benefited her other than hanging out together because she was having to deal with the girls while I was doing all the shopping?!?!). She watched girls while I picked out some new clothes for myself and modeled them for her. Got a bunch of new jeans that fit me better from the running. Then we ate at Red Robin and had some margaritas and more fun. Then, after swim lessons on Sunday, W invited me to go to Chevy's with her and the girls and then watched Padres game. She was on phone with one of her BF's while we were together talking about H and I this, H and I that.
At some point during the interactions on Sunday (at her apt), W said she felt "safe" in her apartment. I told her I was happy she felt safe, I wanted her to feel safe. Then she said (again) she still didn't feel safe in our house because of the bad associations from the past (EA, me being neglectful tool). But then, she said she had felt safe with me all day. I told her I was happy she felt safe with me and asked her to let me know how else I can help her feel safer. She said she thought it would just take "some more time." Her IC told me last week before this to keep being patient and giving her time and space.
The house thing seems to be a big deal for her -- almost like post-traumatic stress disorder -- like the house reminds her of all the shitty stuff I did to her there. But, she seems to be getting more comfortable/safer with ME separate from the house since she keeps initiating weekend contact?
I've left her alone since Sunday. She called yesterday to tell me about something funny with D5 and invite me to meet them at sushi place again. I told her I would stop in and say hi but was going to meet my running group after that for dinner meeting.
8) W still seems depressed and emotionally unstable to me. She called me up at one point wigging out on Tuesday with the kids. She said she couldn't take it anymore and she couldn't take the kids anymore that I could have them for full custody while she would need to go live in Seattle with her mom and dad to keep trying to recover. I told her I was so sorry she was feeling that way, and if she felt that was her only option she should do it. She hasn't said anything about it since.
Any thoughts? I really would love contributions to the American Liver Foundation if anyone is interested =)
Busto, sent you a friend request on the alt. Don't accept it, I was dumb and used my normal FB account... doh
Busto, you sound good. Keep doing what you're doing, she might be moving towards you.
I also think the house just has bad associations for her that'll have to just pass with time.
Keep giving her space and time. Don't be too available for her, but don't discourage her either.
The running club sounds cool. I'll have to see if there's one in my town.
Thanks, Pin! Yeah, I really enjoy the running club. Easy way to meet people and keep company on runs that you want company on. Also helps training in that if you want to get faster you can latch on to someone a little faster than you and they can pull your training along when you run with them (and you can pay it back by doing the same for someone else). There's about 45 people from my group signed up for either the half or full so lots of people of different paces to run with.
It's funny you mentioned Tony Jacal's. I've always wanted to go there. I go to Fidel's which is like right next door to it all the time but have never tried Tony's. Next time I'm down there I'll switch it up. I've heard it's kind of like the Coke vs. Pepsi debate.
I saw your friend request on the alt with your real account but not with your "dummy" account. Did you not send it yet?
Nah, I need to create the account first.
There's a third food joint down in Eden Gardens that I can never remember. It always got the scraps from Tony's or Fidel's, but I liked it because they served minors.
Mini-journal
W just called me to tell me about her "hot yoga" class and how much she loved it. I asked her to tell me all about it. She was very excited and kept saying I should try it. I said it would be fun to do one together. She said, really? you'll do it? I said yeah, sounds fun and I'd love to do it with her. She said, wow when I used to try to get you to go spinning with me, you would never do it cause you said real men never did that sort of stuff (I started spinning, btw, when we separated). I said, well I was wrong about that and wrong about alot of other stuff then. Then I said I hadn't seen her at spinning lately, and we should put the kids in childcare so we could do one together and I could kick her booty around the class. She seemed interested.
She also had me look at a video on facebook that she thought was hilarious and where part of it reminded her of me. Asked me if I liked it, and I told her I loved it.
Maybe a bit more thawing of her heart?
Maybe. Don't pursue it. Let her invite you. Doing physical activity together is always a good idea; gets the blood pumping.
BTW, your daughters are adorable!
Maybe a bit more thawing of her heart?
I wouldn't trust it
Quick update:
W just called to see if I was picking up D5 for soccer practice. First time we'd spoken on phone in 5 days (which I think is the longest ever). I had seen her once at meeting for D5 for ~20-30 min yesterday. I didn't call, text or email all week (per usual).
So, she starts getting weepy on phone, talking about what a funk she had been in all week since she finished a major project. Saying she found herself crying "for no reason." Was binge eating on donuts and trying to vomit, then crying more and getting more depressed. Had to take 2 ativan to "knock herself out to sleep."
I said I was sorry she was feeling that way, it sounded terrible. Asked if she had talked to her therapist about it. She said yeah, but it wasn't that bad on that day. I asked her if she knew what was setting it off or did it come out of the blue? She said she thought it was worse on the nights she didn't have the girls. I validated and said, yeah I saw how that could be hard. Could be rough missing them....I was real sorry she was feeling that way.
I didn't bring anything up re: me, or us, or R or M. This is right thing to do, right? Has to come from her? I'm guessing the funk is partly her feeling the separated life isn't that green after all? (even if it's not about me, about the kids). EDIT: HMM, JUST REALIZED I AM MINDREADING HERE....
Anyway, how best handle this if she brings it up again? Same as I did or did I miss an opportunity? Other suggestions on what to do when the WAS tells you they are miserably sad but don't mention R, etc.?
You validated how she felt and you did not try to fix her problems. A+ Busto
You showed strength. You were a Rock on that one. You did the only thing you could do and that was listen. If she wants to discuss R then let her, but you keep doing what you are doing.
Good Job.
So, after D5 soccer practice, D5 and D2 started melting down. W started to lose it.
Said angrily that she should just give me custody of the kids and move to Seattle, that's what I wanted anyway. I said, I get that you're frustrated and angry, but where did you get the idea that's how I feel.
Then she immediately launched into spew about the EA (first time in months), that I was like any other guy and couldn't keep my d*ck in my pants. That now I had changed and was Mr. Perfect and running and now I wanted her to come running back to me. I apologized for hurting her, said I was so wrong to do what I did and I was sorry for my part in our relationship going south. Had taken steps and continued to take steps so I would not do something like that again to anyone.
She said something like I'll never get over it, I'll be alone and miserable the rest of my life. My friends don't talk to me anymore. You can have them. I don't trust anyone -- my friends, my family, only our D's. I sit at home and binge eat. I told her I was so sorry she felt that way, I got it, and sorry for my my previous bad behavior. I said if she felt she could never get over it then we should move ahead and divorce. She said something like oh yeah so I can be screwed up for the rest of my life. I don't really remember what happened after that except that she said something sort of declining that she wanted to move ahead with divorce.
Little after she left she called me on phone and was non-angry, but not wifey. It's obvious to me she still is really hurt and angry from the EA. I'm fine continuing to give her time/space and GALing/doing my own thing, but not sure if it's the right thing to do. Do I give her the Gucci or a D bomb? It seems heartless to me in this case of a broken heart??? What else say when she brings the EA up like this?
STOP apologizing to her. No more. Nip it. Actions speak louder than any word you could possibly utter. Keep showing her the new Busto. You know what I'm saying Mr. Perfect
She has way bigger issues than your EA right now. MUCH bigger.
Validate her feelings when you can, but do not try to make it better for her by blaming yourself anymore. You've owned your responsibility and you are fixing yourself. If she starts treating you like crap, you tell her you won't tolerate it and you will talk to her another time. Walk away.
Keep GAL'n it's working and you are happy with yourself. Right? Let her work through her problems. Be the Rock that her heat seeking missiles just bounce off of.
Stop apologizing? Really? The infidelity stuff I've read says I should be prepared to keep apologizing IF she brings up that specific issue for YEARS??? Is that off?
I totally agree with you that I am not responsible and should not take responsibility for her ALL her bad feelings (I'm sorry you feel that way. That must be hard to feel that way.) And that I should not tolerate CB. When she says that I am responsible for the current sitch (separation), I say I'm sorry you feel that way. That's appropriate, right? Validating but not taking responsibility.
Why is she pissed off about the new Busto and calling me Mr. Perfect??? What's that all about?
What do you see as her bigger issues?
Why is she pissed off about the new Busto and calling me Mr. Perfect??? What's that all about?
You really can't figure this out?
Because she had to put up with your CB while you neglected her and cheated on her. Now, after treating her that way, you're all of a sudden a great guy?? Why couldn't you do that before your EAs, without putting her through all that? Why didn't you love her and value her enough to want to be the best man/husband/father with her? Now you're strutting around showing everyone what a great guy you are and she looks like the bad guy for wanting out.
Why is she pissed off about the new Busto and calling me Mr. Perfect??? What's that all about?
Because she thinks "Why couldn't he have been like this before? Before my breakdown. It is what I wanted. Now that we are apart he is doing the right stuff. He did this to me. He must really have hated me to purposefully hurt me this way."
It is the miranda rights of DBing "Everything you do can and will be used against you".
OK, ya, I get that for sure. What do I do about it? Just keep it up, and hope she works through her resentment/hurt? I'm not flaunting anything, just being the better Busto. I also don't throw her under the bus to anyone (the opposite, if anything).
Keep being Mr. Perfect if it is what you want. If she can't deal with you being who you want to be, how is that your problem? Why do you have to DO anything about it?
If someone called me "Mr. Perfect" I'd probably respond something like "Thanks. I'm not there yet, I've got 2 more lbs to lose and I'm not quite done with my novel yet, but I should have the draft to the editor by Thanksgiveing".
Good perspective, NFTP. Heh
Pearl, re: why I wasn't that way before. Combination of many factors -- personal failings, failure to control self, failure to respect boundaries, self-indulgence, selfishness, insecurity, depression, my own resentment/anger/hurt from her previous CB. After the bomb, I looked at myself in the mirror, Pearl, and saw the ugliness that she saw and felt and have worked hard to try to improve myself.
I unfortunately cannot time travel to undo my actions. In terms of "doing," I had been thinking what can I DO to make the new me more appealing and less hurtful to her? But, I totally agree with your correction. I am not responsible for her perception of me or her feelings about me. Those are hers, and I should not seek to control them. I yam what I yam.
Busto, I wasn't judging you, just speaking from your W's perspective.
No one can go back and undo things. We all have things we would change if we could. But it does take a long time to come to terms with your spouse's affair. BF and I have had many convos on this subject. He can't change the past and I can't forget it.
I would agree with your plan to apologize for the EA when she brings it up for now. If she continues to throw it in your face then you'll need to talk about agreeing to leave the past where it is and move forward. It's the difference between forgiving and forgetting. I will never forget what BF did but I have agreed to move forward with him so that means I have agreed to leave his affair in the past and not continue to beat him up about it.
FWIW, I think it's good to apologize and ask for forgiveness. BF didn't do that directly for a long time and I was very angry and upset about this. In fact, it's one of the reasons that I still question our R and do not feel like we are reconciled. I'm not suggesting that you go melty man on your W, but do make sure to clearly ask for her forgiveness if/when she feels the time is right. Once. Then don't bring it up again.
Overall I think you're on the right path. Focus on you, GAL, quietly work on being the best Busto you can be.
Busto,
How many times have you apologized to her?
Have you told her if you could go back in time and undo all the mistakes that you would?
You've offered her transparency, you are NOT doing the same old CB. Do you really need to keep saying sorry? Your actions now and in the future should show her.
It's ok to apologize to her through validation, but not when she's trying to make you feel bad. "Nobody likes me and my life sucks and woe woe woe is me...ITS ALL YOUR FAULT!" NO, it isn't.
It's not all your fault Busto. You made your mistakes, just like she has. Don't beat YOURSELF up for those mistakes YOU made. You've owned that responsibility and you are fixing yourself. What is she doing to fix her?
You can't make her forgive and forget. YOU just can't! That's her choice and a tough one.
When you wake up each day and look in the mirror are you happy about what you have become? Are you happy that you stopped all your CB and put it behind you and are moving forward to make sure that you NEVER travel down that ugly path again?
Let her express her feelings to you and continue to understand why she feels that way. However, DO NOT try to fix her feelings by apologizing. Just continue with your changes and be the Rock that you were not before. That to me means more than apologizing all the time.
Personally, I think you are doing a fantastic job. If you just stand behind the new Busto and continue to better yourself each day, you command your own self-respect. That respect creates a ripple that makes her respect you. You are leading.
She's looking for holes in your new armor and will keep looking. You need to stand up for yourself and tell her you will not be talked to that way. Then walk away and communicate with her at a later time. DO NOT use your past mistakes as an excuse for her treating you poorly. This will make her lose respect for you.
I would agree with your plan to apologize for the EA when she brings it up for now. If she continues to throw it in your face then you'll need to talk about agreeing to leave the past where it is and move forward.
Yes, got it. This thing last night was a bit of an aberration cause she hadn't voiced anything angry to me about the EA in over a month. She has said stuff gently about being scared to be vulnerable again. I don't consider that CB, right? Those are her feelings, which I validate.
FWIW, I think it's good to apologize and ask for forgiveness. BF didn't do that directly for a long time and I was very angry and upset about this. In fact, it's one of the reasons that I still question our R and do not feel like we are reconciled. I'm not suggesting that you go melty man on your W, but do make sure to clearly ask for her forgiveness if/when she feels the time is right. Once. Then don't bring it up again.
Yes, I understand. I did finally make a clear apology to her the first time she brought it up post-separation. I failed and was defensive earlier on. I imagine that's a component of her residual anger and hesitancy to consider reconciliation now. Last night was the first time I came out and asked her to forgive me as part of the apology. So, I do feel now like I have clearly apologized and asked for forgiveness. Given that I can still validate her feelings and not accept CB.
Overall I think you're on the right path. Focus on you, GAL, quietly work on being the best Busto you can be.
Thanks!
How many times have you apologized to her?
Post-separation, each time she has brought it up since July I would say, which I think is 4 times now including last night (1x / month in response to her?).
Have you told her if you could go back in time and undo all the mistakes that you would?
Yes.
It's ok to apologize to her through validation, but not when she's trying to make you feel bad. "Nobody likes me and my life sucks and woe woe woe is me...ITS ALL YOUR FAULT!" NO, it isn't.
Yes, I agree. I did say last night, "I am sorry you feel that way. I am sorry for my past behavior and that I hurt you. I am not responsible for all that you don't like about your life today." Should I just have stopped after the first line??
When you wake up each day and look in the mirror are you happy about what you have become? Are you happy that you stopped all your CB and put it behind you and are moving forward to make sure that you NEVER travel down that ugly path again?
Definitely happier about self and changes. Will continue to be work in progress indefinitely =)
Let her express her feelings to you and continue to understand why she feels that way. However, DO NOT try to fix her feelings by apologizing. Just continue with your changes and be the Rock that you were not before. That to me means more than apologizing all the time.
I think I am getting what you are suggesting? Given that I have clearly apologized, and she knows I am remorseful, I can VALIDATE and and continue to behave well, but if I apologize every single time she brings it up that I am relieving her of her role and responsibility to confront/process her own feelings? Is that part of your point?
no more saying sorry,
you've said it,
you've apologized,
continuing to apologize will not gain you anymore points.
She's looking for holes in your new armor and will keep looking. You need to stand up for yourself and tell her you will not be talked to that way. Then walk away and communicate with her at a later time. DO NOT use your past mistakes as an excuse for her treating you poorly. This will make her lose respect for you.
This was relevant again this AM. Did my morning long run with running group. Met W and D's at D5's dance class. W was in a super foul mood and super crabby. Said she felt awful. Started laying into me all angry almost yelling that I didn't really care about how she felt, that she hated it when someone said stuff like they were sorry you felt that way when you know they aren't really. I looked at her and said, "W, I really am sorry you feel that way, it sounds awful, like no fun at all. However, I can't have you talk to me the way you are talking to me. And I am going to the next room to watch D5 dance now. I would be happy to TALK later with you about what's bothering you if you like."
Watched D5 for awhile. Came back and she was calmed down. Said she felt overwhelmed with the stuff that needed to be done to get girls to soccer game. I said How can I help. She requested some things. I pitched in. We cooperated, got to soccer game, had good time there.
Anyway, later in day, she calls me up and invites me to sushi with her and girls. I said I was busy doing stuff around the house, then I reconsidered and said, sure it'd be fun to hang out. She said it's not the same without [my pet name] there. I get there and she seems all chipper, said she has decided to be happy. So we have a nice dinner, do our usual sake, laughs. At one point, girls were being goofy/borderline misbehaving. I was chuckling. She said, the old [pet name] would never have laughed at this (I was real irritable with girls, big issue with her). I cocked an eyebrow at her and said, like what you see? She said, yeah. We went to toy store after that with girls and they picked out a couple of trinkets. Fun time.
While I was driving us back to our car, my W started saying she wanted a dog. Said if we got back together, what did I think about getting a dog. I said I'd love to have a dog with her, maybe two. She nodded.
She starts talking about the people at her work, telling funny stories. Then she tells me some of them have been seeing an old psychic lady. She says everything the psychic has said to her in her life has come true so far (other people being fired, certain people dying, etc.). That she trusts her and she helps her (sort of sounds like a therapist type relationship). So, I guess the psychic has repeatedly told her that her H (me) still loves her very much. That W has a decision to make, has to decide. Then W started showing me some funny videos on her facebook via smartphone. (more life sharing stuff).
I told her I was going spinning in the AM and she said she would meet me there.
From yesterday to today -- must be tough to be in her mind and have these swings.
"W, I really am sorry you feel that way, it sounds awful, like no fun at all. However, I can't have you talk to me the way you are talking to me. And I am going to the next room to watch D5 dance now. I would be happy to TALK later with you about what's bothering you if you like."
Nicely done. The results were perfect.
I think I am getting what you are suggesting? Given that I have clearly apologized, and she knows I am remorseful, I can VALIDATE and and continue to behave well, but if I apologize every single time she brings it up that I am relieving her of her role and responsibility to confront/process her own feelings? Is that part of your point?
Yes
Are you relieving her when you are apologizing? Not really. She's going to feel whatever and whenever she wants. Your actions are the only thing that will really show her you are sincere anyway. She has a decision to make as to whether she can trust you. You made the decision she CAN trust you by how you are working on yourself to be the best Busto ever. Does saying sorry over and over seem necessary to you?
You're doing a good job. Keep doing what is working.
Busto,
Her feelings of anger will bubble to the surface unexpectedly. Lead her in dealing with them by being calm, listening, but just like you did at soccer, not putting up with CB. Be the rock.
Expect her to pullback like she has in the past when the idea of reconciling came up. Remember the squirrel analogy. She's scared sh#tless right now.
Keep doing what you've been doing to make your life better. Keep being a great father to your kids; that's obviously very attractive to her.
Fun morning and lunch with D's and W (swimming lessons, then went to restaurant/bar to watch football game). At restaurant, W shared more stuff about the psychic she had seen and her feelings about the whole thing. I listened and asked her more things about it -- interested and thanked her for sharing it all with me. She said the psychic did readings about the past, present and future and the first time she had seen her the psychic told her there had been a brunette haired girl between me and my W in the past. My W told me to her this meant my stepdaughter, and then my W said that this was something from the PAST (meaning I guess she doesn't feel that way anymore?). This had definitely been an issue between us. I will keep listening to her and things the psychic said that resonate with her, because they seem to be meaningful. She showed me some more funny facebook videos. We actually spent almost no time watching the game and just the two of us talking and laughing with kids coloring next to us.
After lunch, went to bar and watched football games with friend. Got propositioned by barfly girls to have a 4-some with opening line of, "Do you guys like to eat pu$$y." WTF, is that how singles talk/flirt??? REALLY, WTF?!??!?! Scene devolved into theater of the absurd, but managed to avoid getting myself into trouble.
Hey, if wife brings up EA again, would the following be appropriate validation?
I get that you are still scared and hurt, W. How can I help you heal and move forward?
Or leave off the last line?
Or different last line?
Don't tell her how she feels. For all you know, I know, and the rest of the community here knows... she could be doing it because she's just flat pissed off. Mind Reading.
I don't know about the "How can I help you heal and move forward part". It sounds too much like a FIXER.
If I was in your shoes without any particular attack coming my way, I'd probably say "Is there anything you want from me to help you figure this out or do you just want me to listen?"
Idk, if I'm right or wrong on that one...maybe an expert could enlighten us. Without being LIVE on the scene, it's really impossible to know what to say at that moment. Active listening. If you are coming from the confident Busto, you will do it well however you choose. Just don't tell her what she feels even if thats what you are discerning from what she says.
Not much going on. Went spinning this AM. Hope to find time to lift later today. This evening going on planning meeting for wknd camping trip with D5 and D9.
W called me last night asking me to come over and check out the Halloween decorations she got with the girls over the weekend. I go over, and she'd just made dinner so we all sit down and eat together. After dinner, I do an arts and craft project of a haunted house with D2. W seems to love it and gets camera and takes picture. I think it's the first picture she's taken with me in it in quite awhile. D2 and I had alot of fun doing it.
At some point I tell W she looks super cute in her sweater dress. She says thanks, but she feels gross and bloated and fat. I also tell her later she did an awesome job picking out Halloween decs and the place looks great, that she's always been awesome making things festive and fun. I used to not give enough words of affimation and appreciation so something I've been working on.
W shares more stuff with me about work and the psychic. I listen and share back. She also told me she told her BFF at work that she had told me about the psychic. Her BFF said NO WAY! And I asked why she said that she thought? And she said because BFF would never tell her husband because she'd be afraid of how he'd react or what he would think. W said she told BFF that I was real interested in it and asking questions. I guess this is good because W in some way was comparing me to her BFF's husband (still seeing me as husband in some way) and because W realized I was interested and she could share with me.
W tells me her other friend wondered if I had talked to friend's H about friend and H's marital issues. I told her I had hung out with friend over wknd. W told me she told her friend that I would tell things to H as it was and not pussyfoot around with him -- set him straight, and gave friend the example of another H I recently did same with. W also told her friend that even if friend's H told me something that I would not tell anyone else about it, because that's not how I was. So, I guess W still sees some integrity in me.
Not much up. Had D's last night and this AM. They were super cute. D5 is getting better and better at reading. Fun to see, especially her feelings of pride.
Had contractor over on Monday to make some bids to work on house.
Caught up on bills, laundry and dishes last night after camping planning meeting. Usual work today. Ran with running group tonight. Met a couple of new people and improved my 5-mile time. We ran by bay -- killer sunset! Did some e-fundraising for my charity for the half marathon. College buddy of mine called to say that he's moving into town next week, so will be great to hang out with him again. Nothing R-wise. W called a couple of times but I didn't answer, and she left no msg.
YES (with certain commitments from her -- attending retro, agreeing to regular date nights, attending MC on affair recovery, etc.)
Well I want to be married to my wife but only if she wears lingerie 24/7 and gets rug burns every night. And we live in a chocolate castle with ponys.
Yes or no?
For you? If she was sincere? If she is sincere then most of those things you want will likely happen.
Cause the other one, where you say, "I'm not sure." Only say that if YOU aren't sure. But if you AREN'T sure that means some of you is, and some of you isn't.
Do not say it as a trick.
YES (with certain commitments from her -- attending retro, agreeing to regular date nights, attending MC on affair recovery, etc.)
Well I want to be married to my wife but only if she wears lingerie 24/7 and gets rug burns every night. And we live in a chocolate castle with ponys.
Heh, point taken. I say the above, because I am afraid of us ending up where we started.
BUT, I get your point that if she is sincere, then she will herself want to do the "work" of reconciliation.
Do not say it as a trick.
Got it. Yes, for me, I want to reconcile. No double-negatives, no melty man.
W went to visit family with our youngest D while I was camping with my 2 older D's. Camping trip was a blast all around. Fun time with girls, fun time with other dads.
Horrible day of return.
When got back, W and I got in a fight while in car driving somewhere. We both lost our cool, and it escalated to the point where I said I wanted a divorce (this hasn't happened in forever). W got upset. I said, look, don't you want it, you're not wanting to work on anything let's move on with our lives. After some anger, W shook her head no and said, I had taken time and fixed myself, that I was ok now, that I was being selfish in wanting her back now, wanting things my way on my schedule, and not giving HER the time to fix HERself. That she was still broken and a mess and didn't trust anyone.
I dropped her off. Called her about an hour later after I had cooled off, apologized for blowing up at her, and asked her to talk to me about what she was feeling/thinking. She talked about lots of things she had not liked about our past relationship. Ways she had felt inferior, unappreciated, not smart, controlled, nothing she ever did was good enough, subordinate role. I validated, told her how I really felt about her and had failed to communicate it to her before. Told her I can imagine how bad it felt for her. Told her I also hated the way our relationship had been. We talked for about 30 minutes or so, much of it her talking about things she hadn't liked and her uncertainties, and ways she still felt 'broken' (no trust for anyone).
I wrote her an email the next morning thanking her for opening up and sharing to me, that I imagined it had been hard for her. I told her that I was taking my ring off as a rejection of our past marriage/relationship. That I considered that over, never wanted to go back to that, and didnt want her to think I wanted her to go back to that. Told her I hoped she could heal and move on someday. That I only wanted happiness and the best for her, whatever that was.
She called me later that morning asking me something about D5, then told me got the letter and thanked me for it. She called me 3x yesterday about various family-related things (if we were going to a costume-bingo at the school, if I was coming to carve pumpkins at her place on halloween) and then chatted for 15-20 min when she got home about misc stuff.
Not really sure what to make of it all. I need to do a lot better job controlling my emotions than I did that night. I guess it is good that she sees me as 'fixed,' but very sad that she still feels as broken as she does. I clearly need to back off any semblance of pressure or pursuit. I hope that my taking my ring off and letting her know I just want her to be happy, however that is, makes her feel free to move forward one way or another.
What started the argument?
She was playing around on her phone facebooking/texting with a girl friend. She told me what her friend had texted her and what she had responded -- involved husbands making messes when they cooked and she kidded back how it also used to drive her crazy when I did that. Time passed, phone did the beep of her being texted again. She looked at it and started texting back. I (smiling) asked what her friend responded. She got all defensive and launched into how I was being nosy and in her business, how I wouldn't leave her alone, why couldn't I let her text with her friends in peace. Things escalated stupidly from there.
The whole phone texting thing is an issue between us because I used to give her a hard time about texting while in the car because I saw it as disrespectful when someone in the car was talking to you. I since have realized that if she wants to text, it is controlling of me to criticize her for texting. She doesn't have to be there to entertain me and be on call to converse with me. But, anyway, I guess she felt tension about me asking about the texting at all because it reminded her of the past and because I was "in her business."
We just got back from parent/teacher conferences. My D9 is doing well and our D5 is doing well too. We took D to celebrate with a visit to her old preschool, then a stop for candy, then dropped her off at dance class. Stopped and had a roll and salad at sushi place on way to dance class. W seems like in tired, down on self, low self-esteem mode. Overall positive time, though. No big tension/fights, and I gave her words of affirmation and validation.
W burned her hand pretty bad cooking dinner last night and called me crying to come help her. I went over with some burn stuff. Some nasty second degree blisters. She had some pain meds left over from her surgery, so I suggested she take the pain meds (oxycodone), and I would stay to help get kids to bed. I was there ~3 hr, helped feed her and the girls. We watched the World Series game, talked, looked at pics from my camping trip, and I helped little ones do homework and get ready for bed.
She showed me the book she was working on with her IC (self-esteem), and I asked her how she felt it was going. Told her I was impressed with how she was working on herself and the progress she was making overall. She said she had had a hard past 2 weeks emotionally, been very depressed, and apologized for the fight on Sunday, said she was at the peak of her PMS on Sunday and she was feeling better today. I validated (we had talked some before about her feeling real down the past 2 weeks) and commented how strong she had been the day she resolved to 'be happy' and decided to get out of the apartment (when she called me to go out for sushi).
She then told me how she was wanting to get more organic stuff and cook healthy for her and the girls. I validated and encouraged, told her I thought it was a great thing that she was doing for herself and the girls. I told her I'd be game for trying some of the same stuff at my end. She went through her pantry and fridge showing me all the different things she had gotten -- at one point I was stepping away for a sec and she called me back to look at more of the veggies she had gotten (lol).
Few times during night, W asked me if I liked something about her appearance (do you like my toe nails like this -- "so sexy with those shoes", do you like that dress I'm wearing in that pic "you look gorgeous in it", etc.). When she "pulls" for the compliments like that, is it pursuit to tell her she looks good?
While hanging out, I discovered some things about her I didn't know from when we were together (that she loves to watch sports and that she had a garden when she was younger). I was real interested to discover/rediscover this stuff about her. She told me how happy she was that I did the camping program with the girls, that when she told people about it they were always real impressed and interested and said her dad wanted me to send him pics from the trip.
We made plans to do a bunch of family stuff through Halloween wknd -- costume bingo, Gymnastics Halloween party, trick or treating, pumpkin farm station, pumpkin carving and pumpkin bread/cookie baking. She invited me to go to some pumpkin carving party that a mutual friend invited the girls to go to (she has girls this wknd).
When I left, she got up and initiated (almost insisted on cause I kept walking away, lol) a big hug.
She just called me now (next morning) agitated from D5 acting up during dropoff at school. Said her hand was blistered but didnt hurt too bad, but she had headache and felt a lil out of it from pain meds. Said she was afraid her boss would slow her down getting out of work and he would make her late to costume bingo. I validated all around.
Today is 5 months of "separation." I frankly don't see reconciliation as an option on her part until she gets herself back together emotionally. Only then, I think, will she entertain idea of trust and relationship. I hope the DBing is still helping in the meantime (improving self, not pressuring her, listening/validating her to increase connection).
Was the decision to help her with her burn a tough one?
Ya, torn between the "rescue" vs. "neglect" themes. I ended up going because:
1) medical/pain/physical issue (bad burns to her dominant hand)
2) she had the kids with her and it impacted her ability to care for them
3) I would do the same if a single friend called me for help
4) 180 from previous behavior in our relationship -- one time she had kidney stones and was in pain from it. We didn't know it was kidney stones at the time, and I was in the midst of my game addiction and thought she was going overboard with the pain complaints. More or less left her hanging for a few minutes while I finished something in the game. My non-responsiveness to her pain then became a huge, lasting issue.
This is a large thread...please start a new one.
Thanks,
sg
Hi Bustorama,
I have been reading your posts. I am new to DB. I came here after an already long journey. I like how you handled your situation. But there is something I am really curious about from a man's point of view. You mentioned that at first you were not remorseful enough with your W, etc. How come? I am jusy tring to understand, not pry! My H had an EA which I discovered last summer and he said sorry but never tried to fix the M or R let alone felt or showed remorse or genuine regret that he hurt me.
In that time leading up until now he has not lived at home and has been adamant that he does not want me or the M (we have 2 young kids). He said the EA was over so this was not connected with that. Anyway, i did everything wrong, tried to force the R talk, pointed out how much I have changed, called, texted, etc etc. He was often angry, defensive, aloof, cold and sometimes just a downright jacka££. There were moments of softness, thats for sure. The odd time he would stay after the kids slept and have a brief chat or a drink. But he NEVER let me think he would ever change his mind. About a month ago I started to detach (before i found DB but i realise that is what I was doing by not calling just to see how he is etc), and a week ago he told me his intentions to start a full R with the OW (she has always been in the picture!). anyway, I guess i like the way you handled your story and wanted to know what you think. I think I understand the strength this journey is going to need but sometimes its just so SCARY!
I dont feel knowledgable enough to give any advice yet, certainly eveything I have done up until now has not worked. But I believe in DB and will give in to it. Nothing left to lose.
Hi Bustingout,
I will go take a look at your thread (did you start a new thread? Can you link me to it?).
Re: why I wasn't appropriately remorseful, it was various shortcoming of my own.
First, I "couldn't" initially really own how much I had violated our marital boundaries, my own boundaries and the hurt I had caused my W. I selfishly rationalized it all in my head because seeing it for what it was was too painful, demeaning, embarrassing, and humiliating. To see it for how awful it really was and how much *I* had hurt and betrayed her, takes yourself WAY down to admit how terrible the behavior was (I thought stuff like "it wasn't REALLY an A, I never even saw the women or spoke to them on the phone so it didn't mean anything, it was "just" online cyberchatting, it was "just" interactive porn, if I don't see it as an A, then it is not an A, etc, if my W isn't meeting my emotional needs, then is it really so bad to have some of them met through a virtual ("unreal/fantasy") setting ). My guess (below) is this may be what's going on with your WAS since it sounds like he is still engaged in A behavior.
Second, there also, I think, was an aspect of residual anger and hurt that I had at my W for ways she had treated me earlier in the marriage. Instead of talking to her about these issues, I had acted out immaturely through the EA, but the EA still didn't address the residual anger/hurt, which lingered on, and I subconsciously used that to justify my previous bad behavior.
Then, a third thing going on was that I was depressed and obsessive, largely about the state of our relationship. So I kept engaging in avoidant behaviors (like playing online computer games) instead of communicating directly about and addressing the pain and dysfunction in my R with my W.
Don't know if any of these issues are at play with your H. It sounds like from what you wrote above that he may have never fully divorced himself from the OW, so that may the simplest explanation in your sitch. The EA never really ended for him, but rather, has escalated. If it is ongoing, he won't be genuinely remorseful for it because there is too much cognitive dissonance to see the A for how terrible it is if you are still participating in it. I think it takes not only the A to end, but time from the A to pass for the betraying spouse to be able to emotionally accept what damage they've caused to their spouse, their own sense of self, and their M. It's too much of a blow to your sense of being a good person at your core to admit it while the A is ongoing or recent.