After a few month hiatus I've come back. I really needed a break from here. As a lot of you know it can be very depressing watching so many people struggle and see a steady stream of people walking through the front door of this place.
Anyway, I just wanted to get a thread posted. I'll be back later on and update what's gone on since my last thread.
Since my last thread which was back in Sept of last year I'm still on the D train. I made my W and offer that was the best she was going to get.I offered her 50/50 with the kids, no child support (she'd have to pay me with a 50/50 split), I'd leave the 33,000 gift money in the house, and not force the $66,000 that was gifted to our kids to be removed and put into a trust fund for them.
Of course she rejected it. So we volunteered to go through a Forensic Psychological Analysis. For anyone who doesn't know what that is - Each one of us went in and saw a Psychologist. My W and I each saw him 3 times individually. Then each one of us went in to see him with our two kids. He runs us through some stuff, making a house with blocks together, etc..
Then he saw my W and I together twice. He then makes up a report with what he thinks is best for the kids.
I really liked the guy and I was straight up with him. I even had my W's notes and recordings which I turned over to him. I gave him everything, including stuff that seemed not good for me. I wanted to put it all on the table. I figured let the truth stand on it's own.
The end result was he said we are both good parents. We love our kids and they love us. He said we are both attentive to their needs, etc...
When he even mentioned 50/50 my W's jaw hit the floor. She thought she was going to walk into this as a slam dunk. Figuring she'd walk away with the kids.
So he said we needed to get away from each other and suggested rotating in and out of the house and leave the kids there - temporarily till he issues his report and we work out all the logistics.
He said at this point in a S/D it only gets uglier. He said it's at this point where the kids start to get really affected.
So we worked out a schedule of 50/50 rotating in and out of the house.
Getting away from her has been very good for me. It's given me some breathing room and time to settle in a bit. It got really bad by the end, the tension, etc... I couldn't wait to start the rotation.
For the most part we've been exchanging info about the kids by email and text messaging. I like it much better than phone and in person. To tell you the truth I don't really even want to see her in person.
She's done some stupid things - closed our joint account without telling me leaving some outstanding checks and auto withdrawals hanging out there. She tried to change the way we pay our bills - in her plan I get screwed financially. I had to basically force her to put her name on bills that were only in my name - I threatened to just cancel the stuff.
She sent me an email telling me since we paid the bills last month my way (which is the way we always paid the bills) this month she wants to pay the bills her way. I sent an email back saying no thank you. She replied, it wasn't a question. I just replied back, Once again, no thank you.
I'm not playing this cr@p with her.
So we had two cars - an Accord which I always drove, and an Odyssey which she always drove. The lease was up on my Accord so I extended it for 6 months. Both leases are in my name. She decides she doesn't want the Odyssey and she wants to get a Pilot. I imagine the minivan doesn't fit into her new image.
To make a long story shorter I got the minivan and she got a Pilot. She turns around yesterday and sends me an email telling me she wants half the insurance refund for the Accord and half the insurance money that was paid for the Odyssey. I told her no and of course that didn't go over too well. It turns out to be $100. She's nickel and diming me to death...lol.
One of the email threads back and forth landed on some unfinished business between us. I got sarcastic and belligerent in some of it. I dropped too many levels below where I want to be but it's so hard to keep taking the high road when it seems every time I turn around she's trying to screw me out of something.
As most of you know it gets very draining some times. I apologized for the sarcasm and told her it won't happen again. I then sent an email telling her the last few emails got into non productive subjects. I said all that stuff doesn't matter. I'll keep the emails to exchanging information about the kids and the house.
That's the short version update covering the past 7 months.
I've totally given up trying to save my M. I've been focusing on taking care of my kids and protecting my interests. Sometimes it still gets hard and I have my down days. They come fewer and further between.
I've detached so much but there is still some residual threads that I'm hoping will break soon. She isn't the woman I married and she doesn't even resemble someone I would even want to be friends with. Maybe that will change with time, maybe not.
I just have to remember to keep everything like a business deal. Task at hand...that's it.
Hey Steady...
Thanks for giving me the heads up on this new thread.
You sound good. Realistic, present in the moment, recognizing what lies ahead. Are you taking good care of you? Don't get too lost in the facts, too lost in focusing on your kids. What have you done for YOU lately?
I am glad you checked in....
WT
It's nice to see you whiskey. I've missed seeing you around. It's funny you mentioned that. I was sitting in my my little room in my brothers house and it hit me - here I am kind of isolated in this space, god I need to get out more...lol. So the answer is I haven't done much for me lately and it's something I need to change.
I've had a bumpy last few days getting caught up in the drama. It happens sometimes and makes for a bumpy road. I've pulled up and out of it now.
I know I wrote I have given up trying to save my M and I wanted to clarify that.
I stopped focusing on it and can now see issues my W would have to work on if we were to have any chance of getting back together. So my goal isn't to save my M but I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of miracle happen where she wakes up and takes care of her stuff...lol.
I want what I want but I'm not tied to an particular outcome.(for the most part)
So I have our two kids today and tomorrow so my W can do something for her birthday (4/4). She said she's going with her mom - may be, she may not be. The funny thing is it doesn't matter to me what she's doing. It's a really nice place to be at.
I picked up a bday present from the kids for her and I'm going to have them make a card for her.
But I do have a question - do I get a bday card for her? This is probably the longest we've gotten along in a while and she has been pretty nice and pleasant. (I wonder if it is a setup..lol)
I'm kinda on the fence about this.
But I do have a question - do I get a bday card for her? This is probably the longest we've gotten along in a while and she has been pretty nice and pleasant. (I wonder if it is a setup..lol) I'm kinda on the fence about this.
Would that be pursuing? Does pursuing work?
Ready,
I thought about that one for a while. Hence my question here. I'm not sure it's even a matter of pursuing anymore. I basically quit any methods of trying to 'control' anything with an outcome in mind.
Being nice at all can be construed as pursuing. I mean anything that is beyond dealing with the logistics of our house and the kids that is.
At this point I don't even think I want my W back because I know it wouldn't work. She hasn't changed, and all the issues that existed from her end still exist. I've gone through incredible changes and am nowhere near the person I was two years ago.
Your reply was very helpful because I've come to the conclusion that I will only have my kids give her a card for her birthday and I will not.
I'm not sure I really buy the whole, If I do A, then B should happen. It seems to really boil down to:
If someone wants to leave, let them leave. Don't hold on. Move forward. Improve yourself. Don't try to control anything. Say Yes to whatever happens. Keep the focus on yourself. Want what you want, but don't be attached to a particular outcome. Live life.
Thanks for your reply Ready. It did get me on a nice line of being.
If someone wants to leave, let them leave. Don't hold on. Move forward. Improve yourself. Don't try to control anything. Say Yes to whatever happens. Keep the focus on yourself. Want what you want, but don't be attached to a particular outcome. Live life.
I like that...I think I am at that same point... You mentioned that your W doesnt even resemble some anymore that you would want to be friends with...i feel the SAME way about my H... at this point, there is so much change that would be needed from his end... do i wish a miracle would happen too? yes i do... but right now... i've let go and whatever happens happens
lol @ miracles happening. I have often wished for that, but it's from a whole different viewpoint than the one I had when I first got here.
It's no longer a wish from a desperate and needy perspective. I'm ok with who I am. Actually I'm very good with who I am today. The desire to work through this comes from a position of want rather than one of need. I don't need it, I want it. If it doesn't happen then so be it. I will be fine and I'll continue to move on.
There's a world of difference between wanting and needing.
I had the kids tonight. I have so much fun being with them. They have the week off and my W works for the school system so she has the same schedule as our kids. I took a few days for her so she could go away with her mom for her bday.
After work I met her and the kids at the house to swap them. She got ready to go out to dinner with her friends to celebrate her bday. I took the kids to the park then we got some dinner.
We wrapped the bday present from the kids and they both made her a birthday card.
At around 8pm I texted my W and told her she could come get the kids tomorrow morning at 8am rather than 7am. She thanked me and said she was having a good time with her friends.
I'm not sure what my motive was for doing that. Looking back I'm questioning it. Maybe I shouldn't have and just let her deal with coming early because I imagine she was drinking pretty good tonight.
It felt like the thing to do when I did it. I've been really steering away from the 'if I do a, then hopefully b will happen' thinking, but I often wonder if I'm fooling myself at times.
I did what I did. I'm trying to find the balance of being who I am and drawing boundaries for the interactions I'm having with her. I need to clarify the boundaries more. I think that would take care of questions like these.
Steady I'm glad to see that you're still human, and make mistakes. I agree with your previous post about wanting a miracle rather than needing one. that's a good place to be, but it doesn't make wanting it any easier does it?
i used to think i needed my M to be fixed, but I know I don't. However, i desperately want it to be fixed. Someone other than me would have to make some serious changes for that to happen.
I guess over time things get somewhat easier, but it seems the wanting takes awhile to go away.
Steady I'm glad to see that you're still human, and make mistakes. I agree with your previous post about wanting a miracle rather than needing one. that's a good place to be, but it doesn't make wanting it any easier does it?
lol..of course I make mistakes. Plenty of them too. It actually does make the wanting easier. It actually makes it go away.
The thing that makes the wanting hard is if there is a 'needing' attached to it. Imagine you want a new car, but you don't need one. When you think about that car it isn't hard at all to want it but knowing you don't have it. It has no impact on you at all - because you want it, you don't need it, so if you get it or not doesn't really make much of a difference.
That's the difference between owning your wants and not needing it to work out any particular way, and wanting with the flavor of needing.
i used to think i needed my M to be fixed, but I know I don't. However, i desperately want it to be fixed. Someone other than me would have to make some serious changes for that to happen.
I'll call you out on this and say you aren't at that point yet. If you really felt that way you wouldn't write - 'desperately' in the next sentence.
Desperate implies needing, a desperate person is like a person dying of dehydration desperately needing some water. The desperation is the neediness you need to get rid of. That's a component of detaching.
Think about this question:
If you could see the future, and it shows you:
1. You and your W going through this whole process that you are in, and getting back together after you both have grown and improved. You then have a relationship beyond your wildest dreams.
2. You and your W go through this whole process and end up not getting back together. You've changed but your W hasn't. Over some time you meet a woman who turns out to be a much better match for you because you have improved and therefore attracted a more healthy woman. It ends up being a relationship beyond your wildest dreams.
Knowing either one of these as your future, how would you be acting right now? Would you be desperate? Would you be detached knowing that you are destined to be happier than you ever were?
Think about that. Think some more. Imagine it. Close your eyes and see them both. Make it as real as you can in your mind - see, taste, touch, smell. Take your time.
Then come back and answer it.
I did what I did. I'm trying to find the balance of being who I am and drawing boundaries for the interactions I'm having with her. I need to clarify the boundaries more. I think that would take care of questions like these.
Acknowledge where you are in this R and/or where you want to be. What's best for you to move forward. Since you have children, you'll always have a R with her. At times, you have to move your heart out of the way - acting without expectation.
I just took a philosophy class and one of the things that stuck with me is - treat people as they deserve to be treated. To me this means, don't reward bad behavior, don't overly reward to 'teach' them generosity.
The cool thing about adding a thread to as a watched topic is that we get all posts, even if they're deleted. Stop trying to be so nice. Be fair. Don't worry about setting an example or hoping that she'll treat you kindly in return. That may last for a short while until she gets another bug up her ass.
Do what you believe is the right thing to do for you and your kids. No expectations from her.
WT
lol @ deleted posts whiskey. It was funny, because after I saw your reply, the first thing that came to mind was - I wish I had left that post up there to get whiskey's feedback on it. I think it's kind of funny that you mentioned being able to see deleted posts. It always amazes me how when we need the help the most, there's always someone who shows up and gives us exactly what we need.
I was in the shower this morning thinking about it - I was going from, if it was a friend of mine I'd at least send a happy birthday text; did she even acknowledge my bday in Jan; if I don't text does that make me an ass; am I trying to punish her if I don't text; if I do text am I giving her something she doesn't deserve based on her past behavior with me; don't make the decision to illicit some kind of reaction from her; do I choose to still be nice and kind to people who treat me like she has; what does my intuition/gut say (no answer); etc...
I'm not going to even acknowledge her birthday. For no other reason except I really don't feel like it. That was my initial reaction the other day...I felt like I didn't want to.
I just took a philosophy class and one of the things that stuck with me is - treat people as they deserve to be treated. To me this means, don't reward bad behavior, don't overly reward to 'teach' them generosity.
I have to contemplate this statement. For me it's not so much teaching them generosity as deciding to act as I want to act without being a reaction. Me choosing how I wish to be regardless of someone's behavior toward me. But I really need to take a good look at this. I can still act as me but not be overly nice about it.
Sitting here thinking about it a question came up - am I just fooling myself with that? Am I just masking a people pleasing/'I need them to like me' fear inside of rationalizing being an action rather than a reaction? I imagine this is true and is what I'm doing. I can still be an action but treat people as they deserve to be treated - whether that's 'good' or 'bad' treatment.
The really funny thing is last week she asked if I wanted to sleep over the night before Easter (with her in the house too) so we could get up and watch the kids hunt for their Easter baskets. I immediately said no thanks. I reminded her a few months ago I talked to her about her not doing things like that so the kids can have an experience of it and she told me, "What's the point? It's all fake anyway."
I told her to do Easter with the kids and I will do it with them next year. I mean, why would I want to sleep in the house with a woman who tried to get a court order out on my at the end of January? I feel bad my kids miss me being there but I will have plenty of opportunities to be there with them in so many things.
In July I'm taking them to Colorado for my family reunion. My W is taking a cruise with her family and leaving the kids at home. I want my kids to experience these things with me. My W and I are on different pages - to her they would get in the way, to me, I want them to be with me.
Even last night I texted my W to tell her I was going to drop off some Easter eggs I filled up for the kids. She txt back asking if I want to come in and hide them. I told her no. Asked her to put them in their baskets. I just have no desire to do any of this stuff with her. The great thing about it is, it doesn't matter to me.
I need nothing from her. That's really freeing.
Whiskey, what philosophy class did you take? My two passions are philosophy and psychology. I'm going to go back to school to get a Masters in the mental health field - maybe become a psychotherapist. Both are amazing subjects.
Thanks again for your post. I really enjoy and respect your feedback and advice.
I still can't snatch that marble from you're hand..
It was an intro to philosophy, I'm finishing up my bachelor's degree. The book is The Elements of Moral Philosophy by James Rachels. Just over 200 pages but extremely thought provoking.
I guess my question is what role does your W play in your life right now? It seems co-parenting is your primary role with her. So, as the mother of your children, I think it is great the you get her presents, cards and the like from your children. From you? I would be consistent. It's good to check in with yourself to see if you feel like doing something. However, that may prove to be inconsistent. Get what I mean?
I like that you're taking your kids with you on a trip. Parents are the great teachers, taking them to new places is a good experience for them. Interesting that your W travels without them, but that's her choice.
Your Master's plan sounds great. I, too, really enjoy psychology and philosophy. People are fascinating. I'd thought briefly about doing a psych degree but I'll just keep that as a minor.
You've definitely come a long way. It's good to see how well you're doing.
WT
I guess my question is what role does your W play in your life right now? It seems co-parenting is your primary role with her. So, as the mother of your children, I think it is great the you get her presents, cards and the like from your children. From you? I would be consistent. It's good to check in with yourself to see if you feel like doing something. However, that may prove to be inconsistent. Get what I mean?
WT, I am a little confused on this. Let me see if I can follow the bouncing ball.
Right now, the only role I see between my W and I is co-parenting the kids. Most of our interactions are through text messages and email.
I thought a lot about boundaries today. What boundaries I want is basically dictated by the kind of relationship I want to have with my W, which is also affected by the kind of R she wants with me. In other words I she could want to be friends with me, but I may not want a friendship with her, therefore a friendship won't happen.
You are right about my feelings being inconsistent. I have flip flopped on even acknowledging her birthday with a simple text message. It seems rather ridiculous and a total waste of energy on my part. But it is what it is and that's what I have to play with..that's the clay in my hands.
At times I don't even want a friendship with this woman. The way she has treated me over the past two years; her attempt to take out court orders on frivolous incidents; her lying and twisting the truth on her affidavit on the first order attempt; her standing in the way of me getting 50/50 with my kids; the warped way she has painted me to her family and friends; there's just way too much to list. The list goes on and on.
Then there are other times when she is genuinely (that may be up for debate) nice. I am a much better man than she will even acknowledge and I am kind and thoughtful. I think the yardstick I try to use is this - am I doing this because it's what I want to do and it's right for me to do it? Am I doing it to get some kind of 'reaction' from her (manipulative); Am I doing it to strike out and hurt her (vindictive)? Sometimes I can't truly answer that question.
I still sometimes harbor a wish to work through all of this and keep my family together but the reality of it is it would take an act of god for that to happen.
My T asked me yesterday if my W turned around tomorrow would I take her back? I told her I think I wouldn't. I said there would be so many hoops for her to jump through - she would have to acknowledge her part in the R deterioration; she would have to own and fix the issues she brought into the R; she would have to sit down with me and her family and explain how she distorted the truth and painted a picture of me which wasn't reality; she'd have to stop drinking; etc...
The T looked at me and said, "Even then I don't think it would work. I don't think you would take her back. You're not anywhere near the same person you were." I agreed with her on the massive changes I've made.
She also remarked at how far I've come and the way I even discuss the sitch is from a much more balanced and healthy perspective.
Do I want her to turn around and tell me she made a mistake? Do I want her to genuinely own and apologize for the things she has done? (like I did many times in the MC sessions)
The answer is YES. Why do I want this? Sometimes I don't even know. Vindication? A need for validation from her? (I think it's a lot less about this one)
I think I acknowledged her birthday in the best way I know how to right now - I bought a really nice present for her from the kids, I had each one of them make a personalized birthday card with pictures and coloring done by them. So for the R her and I have right now, what I did was spot on.
Right now my connection with her seems to only come through the kids. I don't answer my phone when she calls because I don't really feel like speaking to her. I declined her invitation to stay over the night before Easter because I really have no desire to see her. I don't reach out to contact her unless it has to do with our kids or something to do with the household stuff.
It just seems to be my preference
right now. That may change over time but I can't speak for the future.
She has over the past few weeks called me when she could have easily texted and initiated some banter through text messaging.
For now, I'll stay steady on my course and boundary of only information exchange about the kids.
Even last night I had filled some big easter eggs for my kids and txted her I was going to drop them off on the porch. She asked if I wanted to come into the house and hide them. I declined - again, because I really don't want to see her. And to clarify, it's not avoidance because it brings up a sadness or wanting in me, but rather an avoidance because I just don't want to. I hope that makes sense. When I do see her I really don't feel anything at all. No pull, no attraction, no desire. Not even to engage in a conversation.
I'll have to check out that book. I am so fascinated by both subjects and feel they totally intertwine as to become inseparable.
What bachelor degree are you getting? Is it in philosophy or is the philosophy class one of your core requirements?
Thanks again WT. You have often been one of the rocks I lean on.
One other thing:
If I had them on today, I would have taken a picture of them with their baskets and recorded them saying, "Happy easter mommy. We love you." and sent the pic and audio to her phone.
She did none of the sort. I had to txt her later on in the day and ask her to have the kids call me so I could wish them both a happy Easter.
I drafted a txt telling her I don't think I should have had to txt her and she should have done what I would have done. I didn't send it (I've learned something along the way..lol). Eventually I decided not to send it because I realized it was just an attempt for me to take a jab at her and really had nothing to do with the kids.
Do I think it would have been common courtesy for her to have done that? Yes. But who am I to expect people to act like me? There's no rule that says that's how it is in the universe. I could have easily texted her this morning and asked for a picture if it really was about the kids.
I do check myself often and try to filter out my own BS when I see it.
Fill in to get up to speed.
I got the Forensic report from the Psychologist last week. I didn't even know it was in until my W asked me last Monday if I heard from my lawyer about the recommendation for physical custody. I told her I didn't. She said the reports been in for about a month. I asked her what it said and she told me the recommendation was for every other weekend, Thu to Mon, then Wed overnight, and Tue Thu from 4:00 till bedtime (usually around 8-9). I wasn't too happy about it because I was looking for 50/50.
I told her I wasn't happy about it and she said, "It's more than the standard court guidelines." I told her I didn't care about the court guidelines and what other people get. I said their guidlines are for murderers and child molesters...lol. The minimum guidelines are every other weekend and 1 or 2 nights a week after school till bedtime.
So I had a really rough Mon afternoon. Tue I came in to work and asked my boss for the day off to get my head together. He's really great so he told me it wouldn't be a problem. I went to my brothers house and fell asleep around 10:30 and woke up at 4:30. When I woke up I was like, "Where the hell has my head been."
When I thought about the schedule I realized I would have my kids for half their awake time. I only had lost 2 overnights over 14 days so it really wasn't bad at all. Instead of 7 overnights I was going to have 5. The report also gave me 50/50 of all holidays and 50/50 for the summer.
When I talked to my L he said he was going to call the psychologist and find out why I'm getting 50/50 for the summer and holidays and not 50/50 during the school year. He said he was also going to ask why he set us up for a 50/50 rotation (which we are doing now) and then changed it. My L said he is still going to try and negotiate 50/50 or very close to it. So we'll see where that goes. I'm meeting with him Wed to get more details on the report.
He did tell me the Psych wrote in the report about my W having a drinking issue with a dependency on alcohol. My L said we could have it stipulated in sep agreement that she can't drink and no alcohol allowed in the house.
The psych also said I would be more able to co-parent because my W holds the perspective she can do no wrong and I can do no right. When I heard that it was vindication for me. This is something I've been telling my W for 8 years now. That she is a fault finder and always has to find something wrong with how I am or how I do things. If it's not done her way she thinks it's being done wrong. It was the source of a lot of our problems.
He also talked about my issues - the bipolar, OCD issues and I get impatient and verbally aggressive. These are all issues I already know about and am actively working on in T.
He also wrote my D is closer to my W and my S needs me more in his life. That was nice to hear. He also said my kids don't really care which house they would be in and they only care about being with us.
Last week I asked my W why the psych gave her prim custody and she said because he put in his report that she gives them more structure. When my lawyer said the kids need structure I told him my W said the report indicated she can give them more structure. He said it doesn't say that, only that they need more structure because of their age. Go figure. She actually lied (sarcasm). Like that hasn't happened a lot over the past 2 years.
So all in all it wasn't too bad. It was really nice it only took me a day to get my feet back under me. I can see real growth in me.
The other thing I decided was I was going to let go of all my anger. Like my C says, anger is a poison we drink while waiting for the other person to die. After I made that decision the anger disappeared - just like that.
The past two weeks I've been sending barbs over to her and taking shots at her once in a while. Mostly over issues she has and how she's still doing the same stuff. After I send them over I feel a short lived sense of 'power' but then I start to reconsider it. I'm not that guy and I never have been. I've never been vindictive or one to strike out even if people seem to be treating me like crap. Not that I don't draw boundaries and stand up for myself, but rather I don't take a vindictive stance where I have to seek some sort of vengeance.
So I decided not to act that way and I'll be an action rather than a reaction. It's a learned process. So now I'm going to keep my balance and not be sarcastic or belligerent.
I had an opportunity to practice it over the weekend in a text fest with my W. She pulled some crap about her thinking she should be the kids ground and I should see them as much as possible. I indicated to her she keeps taking the stance that the kids' time is something for her to give out. I reminded her I was their father and she didn't have the power to control how much time I can see them. I told her the psych put into his report about her thinking she can do no wrong and I can do no right and showed her how she was exhibiting that behavior right now with what she said.
I also told her we need to work on the issues the psych pointed out because they affect our ability to parent and co-parent. There were many opportunities to be sarcastic and throw some barbs in but I didn't. To tell you the truth, after it was all done I felt a lot better than when I had taken some shots at her.
Without that anger I don't feel the need to strike back and that's a nice thing. I feel taking the high road will keep my dignity in tact.
There's other stuff but I'll end it here for now. If you've read this far I commend you and you get a gold star and a happy face sticker...lol.
So yesterday I had my meeting with my lawyer to discuss the psychologists report. It actually turned out better than I expected.
The lawyer basically summarized the different points in the report hw thought was important. Neither my W nor I can actually get a copy of the report or even read it. Only our lawyers can look at it.
I was very pleased with the assessment the psychologist did. He nailed my W's issues to a T. He said she has an alcohol problem and recommended her to go to treatment for it. He identified her exaggeration and embellishment issue. He also talked about how my W thinks she can do no wrong and I can do no right. He also said she basically treats me like I'm a child. lol
These are all issues I have brought up to her throughout our relationship so it's no surprise to me. I'm just glad the psychologist was able to see them and report on them.
The psych said I would be a better co-parent because of my W's issue where she thinks it's her way or the highway. He said she would be less cooperative in a co-parenting role.
The psychologist talked about some of my things - the bipolar, but he said with the right meds my mood would be stable, he indicated some OCD issues, and also that I am impatient and can be verbally aggressive. All issues I already am aware of and working on.
He also said my D is more attached to my W and my S is more attached to me. He said my S enjoys my temperament more because we are more similar.
The psych also gave me 50/50 physical custody over the summer and the Christmas and Easter breaks. This kind of baffled my L because he wondered why I have 50/50 for those and not 50/50 during the school year.
At the end of Jan while we were still both in the house my W and I had an argument. I was in my room laying on my bed with my laptop on my lap. The argument ended when she left my room. She then returned a few minutes later and restarted the argument. Unbeknownst to me she had a tape recorder on her. I told her to leave my room a few times but she just stood there talking. I started to tell her to get the f*&k out of my room. Then she said, "Do you realize you are saying all this with your daughter right here?"
My D was just outside my door. She took that tape recording and sent it to the psychologist. Well, my L said it worked against her. The psych said she could have just left the room when I asked her to, or at least taken my D downstairs. He commented that my language and demeanor was inappropriate, which it was, but said my W was basically using my D as a pawn to get something on me. So the psych saw my W's behavior as very inappropriate. So that was a good thing because I wondered how that would look.
The psych also said my W was immature with her attitude about acting like everything is everyone else's fault.
The psych recommended my W get treatment for the alcohol dependency and he also said my W and I should go to counseling to work on the issues where she thinks she can do no wrong - to help us co-parent. I really don't see that happening but who knows.
Basically my L said we'll tell them to give me 50/50 or sue for D. There is no legal action and so far everything we have done has been voluntary. My L said she has no grounds for a D so lets put the pressure on them. My W also has a past which she doesn't want to come up so that may work against her.
So overall the meeting went very well and I was pleased with the psych assessment of the issues.
Yesterday I had my S and we went out to dinner. We came home and played ball in the yard. I pitched wiffle balls to him and he hit. I took a picture of him with the bat and sent it to my W. I constantly do stuff like that although she doesn't reciprocate.
My S said he likes hanging with me better than my W and it was nice to hear that. Although I know he like being with her too. It's just that we do different things than what he does with her.
We were originally going to swap and I was going to take my D and she was going to take my S. But the two of them fussed so much we kept it the way we usually do Wed's.
Today I had both kids. I took my D to get a manicure and pedicure at the local salon. She was totally pampered. Feet in the jacuzzi water, lotion on her feet and legs with a massage, same with her hands. She had a really good time. My S was great. The girl who did my D let my S put his feet in the other jacuzzi bath and he sat there for a while. She was really good to my kids.
I sent my W about 3 pictures of my D getting her toes and fingers done. I always try to do that so my kids feel she is included in these things. I tell them I am sending the pictures and they often record something to go with the pictures.
After that we went to Friday's for dinner. We came home and I got them ready for bed. While at the restaurant I txt my W to tell ask her if she minded giving them a bath tomorrow when she has them since we were running kind of late. She said it wouldn't be a problem. I did this for her a few weeks ago when she had them on a Thurs and couldn't get around to a bath.
Anyway that's the update for now.
Where oh where is my WT, oh where oh where can she be?
I sent my W a text this morning to tell her no one will be at my brother's house to get our S off the bus. (He rides the bus with my niece) She texted back saying she's in a bind. Her mom is busy with her dad and she has a late meeting.
I told her I would pick up our S and bring him back to work with me. I work late when I can to make up the time I have to use when I take them to school in the morning. She thanked me and I told her it wasn't a problem.
Co-parenting comes first. All the rest of the stuff lines up after that.
I continue to be myself and be nice and fair no matter where she goes. The other day she got a bit nasty but I just held my steady course. Didn't let her actions pull me in to her level. I actually feel better when I do that because I am projecting who I really am and I don't need to get down in the mud with her.
Steady,
Hi. I am guilty of participating in the brain-free activity that is FB and neglecting the rest of the internet. I've been reading your posts, but feel I have little to add. But since you've asked.....
You are being fair. Although, I can see your W is taking up a bit of real estate between your ears. So, a new question springs to mind - what do you want from her? I noted that when talking to your C, she says based on the person you are now, you don't want her back. I can understand wanting to keep your family together, however, that would involve taking her back.
You send her pictures of the kids when they are with you and this is a nice gesture. You do follow up with commenting that she wouldn't do that for you. You are right. Let it go. She is who she is...if she changes it will be her idea. What's your intention? So the kids will feel she's involved while they are with you? I disagree with that - doesn't that send a mixed message? She's no longer involved with you and she gets her time with them. My thoughts.
Do I want her to turn around and tell me she made a mistake? Do I want her to genuinely own and apologize for the things she has done? (like I did many times in the MC sessions)
The answer is YES. Why do I want this? Sometimes I don't even know. Vindication? A need for validation from her? (I think it's a lot less about this one)
I don't think you need validation from her. IMHO you just want to be right for once. When our spouses walk away, I think most of us want to think that they made a mistake. They all have their reasons, valid to us or not. I had a time when I wanted him to regret leaving me. Now? It just doesn't matter. (Almost 4 years later, it took about 2 years me to hit this point, your mileage may vary)
My bachelors will be in Natural Health. Unconventional, but I do believe that complementary medicine has it's place within scientific medicine. Both from a preventative and integrated prospective.
Started my next psych course - the book is good. Reaching out - Interpersonal Effectiveness and Self-Actualization. David Johnson. Another quick read - full of interesting thoughts.
Are we good now?
WT
The first thing I want to know is did you sing the sentence to the song? (Where oh where is my WT....) lol
Steady,
Hi. I am guilty of participating in the brain-free activity that is FB and neglecting the rest of the internet. I've been reading your posts, but feel I have little to add. But since you've asked.....
Oh...Crackbook. I try to stay away from that place as much as possible. I pretty much only go there when I get emailed that someone has sent me a message.
You are being fair. Although, I can see your W is taking up a bit of real estate between your ears. So, a new question springs to mind - what do you want from her?
It's funny you mention the real estate thing. Yesterday at the end of my work day I realized I didn't even think about my sitch at all. I laughed a little bit because as the days move forward I find it occupying less and less of my mind space (and there's a lot of space in there). So that was a nice observation. Most of my thoughts around the sitch are more on the things we need to settle on - custody, house, money, etc... and less to do with the dynamics between her and I.
Since physically separating from her I have a lot more peace inside me. I really do like who I am and I've worked really hard at getting to the point of self validation.
What do I want from her? You've asked me this before and I really couldn't answer it. I don't have any idea. I can't answer that question right now - and I'm perfectly ok with that. I imagine the answer to that question hasn't really settled at some semi-firm point and is still wiggling back and forth.
I noted that when talking to your C, she says based on the person you are now, you don't want her back. I can understand wanting to keep your family together, however, that would involve taking her back.
You're right, it would require taking her back. I think the overall theme was I wouldn't take her back because I have changed and put quite a bit of distance between us - I wouldn't settle for the person she was doing our marriage nor the person she is right now - she's pretty much stayed the same. So in that context I wouldn't be with her because she doesn't have much to offer me.
You send her pictures of the kids when they are with you and this is a nice gesture. You do follow up with commenting that she wouldn't do that for you. You are right. Let it go. She is who she is...if she changes it will be her idea.
Funny you mention that. She just sent me a video and a voice message from my kids. So that was nice. I like getting them because it does keep me in touch with the kids when she has them. Remember, my kids are 4 and 7 so them being able to send messages or pictures is a big deal to them. Usually I ask if they want to send a picture, video or pic and voice to their mom. If they don't want to, then I don't. The other ironic thing is it was her mom who took the picture and video - here's a woman who wouldn't even say hello to me when I last saw her at my D's birthday party. So my decision to be as friendly
as is possible at this point, does have an impact in my world. I understand people will do what they do, but reactive people will respond reactively to the message you send out to them.
What's your intention? So the kids will feel she's involved while they are with you? I disagree with that - doesn't that send a mixed message? She's no longer involved with you and she gets her time with them. My thoughts.
Although she's not involved with me, the kids are still involved with her. I think me doing stuff like that gives them a feeling of connectedness with the other parent even though they are physically apart. I may be wrong about this and I'm sure time will tell. I'm just trying to do my best to co-parent and to keep the kids actively involved and connected to my W. Again, I don't have any experience in being separated with a split family so I basically grope around to find a good balance point. I've also been told by a number of mental health professionals that the way the kids react to this kind of situation really depends on how the two parents get along. That's my primary goal.
I don't think you need validation from her. IMHO you just want to be right for once. When our spouses walk away, I think most of us want to think that they made a mistake. They all have their reasons, valid to us or not. I had a time when I wanted him to regret leaving me. Now? It just doesn't matter. (Almost 4 years later, it took about 2 years me to hit this point, your mileage may vary)
I think you're spot on with that - I don't need validation from her (there is still a small part of me that wouldn't mind it..lol) and it's more of a point of being right for once. I can see there will be a day when it just doesn't matter and I can see how much it's actually dissipated over the time that has passed.
I imagine if it did happen it will be a double edge sword.
My bachelors will be in Natural Health. Unconventional, but I do believe that complementary medicine has it's place within scientific medicine. Both from a preventative and integrated prospective.
Started my next psych course - the book is good. Reaching out - Interpersonal Effectiveness and Self-Actualization. David Johnson. Another quick read - full of interesting thoughts.
Are we good now?
WT
I used to be a lot more interested in alternative medicine than I am now. I completely agree with your statement as to is relevance to modern medicine and how they would both actually complement each other. I remember reading studies on the positive effects such 'alternate' methods have.
Good luck on your new class.
And of course we're good. We're always good...
Nothing much going on. My W and I have been getting along well for the past two weeks. That seems to be her limit of time she can go without causing some type of drama.
She decided to stir up some drama today. I didn't get sucked in and stood my ground. It ended up pissing her off more because I didn't accept her negativity.
I'm too tired to get into the details right now but I'll post it next time I'm here - if for nothing else but to keep a journal going.
All in all everything is good. I'm happy even in the middle of all this crap. I find myself in a position that I was shooting for - being good and happy no matter what's going on around me. The sitch is still there with all of it's problems and difficulties, but I feel just fine. I'm not in any rush and refuse to pushed.
So far I've had a great weekend with the kids. I took them Friday after school to a party for my S friend. We ended up hanging out there until 7:30 - after 6 it was just my kids and I hanging out with S friend and his mom. The kids played together and I chatted it up.
After that I took the kids to the drive in theater to see How to Train Your Dragon. It was their first drive-in and they had a great time sitting in the back of the minivan watching the minivan.
Yesterday we went down to the waterfront here to see the ship that was the Black Pearl in the Pirates of the Caribbean movie. We hung out down there and then got a bite to eat. Then we headed over to the park and they played there for about 2 hours.
Both of them said they had so much fun. The kids even made a comment to me about how their mom told them they aren't good with her and give her a hard time. They also said I let them do things that she doesn't let them do and they like that. I give them room to be kids and make mistakes but I do have healthy boundaries with them on what they can and can't do.
My W is more like a dictator barking out orders and using punishment as the method. I take a different tact and let them be involved in some way with the decision making.
My W went to her L yesterday and I haven't heard from her since. I'm sure she isn't happy at all. When she got my lawyers letter last week she spent a few days trying to come after me with a few things. I expected this because its a pattern with her. I even told her I understand she's angry and will try to come after me with anything she can.
I'll update more later. Have the kids calling me.
That sounds like a great day. Damn, I'd let you adopt me...lol
hey steady,
I havent read much on your sitch as I have spent the last.. I dont know how many hrs ..reading survivor03.. but I saw your words of encouragement to her and wanted to stop in and say that I am keeping you in my prayers. as I havent read your sitch I dont know all of the dynamics but from this page, it appears that you are doing well in putting the kids first. That is admirable.
I hope I am not offending when I say that with time you will be able to completely detach from their mom and if it isnt meant to be, when you are ready, you will find the one who is! so.. keep playing on FB.. I have friends who have met old sweethearts and rekindled the romance!
If nothing else, its fun to see how old your classmates look as you run into them! lol
take care and stay positive!
Mary
lol @ CanadianKid - two kids is enough for me.
MaryEL, thanks for stopping by. I'm a firm believer in life taking care of me. It always seems to have a way of turning 'seemingly' negative events into giant jumping off points for me.
You're comments are not offending at all. The ironic thing is, it's exactly what I needed to read right now. This is what I mean about life taking care of me. I usually get what I need at exactly the time I need it. So thanks for stopping by and come around whenever you want, and post whatever you wish.
It's been a while since I updated. Nothing much going on. I had an incident last weekend with her. We were in a meeting with my S therapist (he goes to group play therapy every tuesday). It was just a standard monthly meeting with her.
My W is going on and on about the 'problems' my S is having. So I interrupt and tell the T my W has a habit of embellishing and exaggerating things. I said it was an issue pointed out in the psych report.
The T asked if we agreed with what was in the report. My W said she didn't agree with the body of the report but she agreed with the conclusion - the part where she gets primary custodial custody and the visitation schedule. I laughed and said, yeah, all except that Wed overnight he recommended and you took out in the lawyer from your letter to mine. She said, yeah, I didn't agree with that.
I went on and told the T the report also said I would be a better co-parent because of my W's thinking she can do no wrong and I can do no right. I told the T that was also in the report. I also said the report said my W blames everyone else and doesn't take responsibility for herself and her issues.
My W then said, well the psychologist was going on what I (meaning me) told him. I looked at her in astonishment. I told the T this is another thing my W does - she says I 'charm' all the therapists and fool them about myself. I said, Do you think therapists are that stupid that they can't see through people's BS? Do you really think I can fool a PhD in Psychology whose done hundreds of these Forensic Analysis'?
Then my W said, "Well he told me you were a pathological liar and you were lying to him." She also said he told her I was cycling (Bi Polar) when I was with him. I called her a liar. I asked her why those weren't in the report. She said she didn't know. It was a complete fabrication on her part.
It's very frustrating. But I'm fine. I have learned to quickly bounce back when she pushes my buttons - I know it's her issues and has nothing to do with me.
I've been busy spending time with my kids. Life is good and I'm really spending less and less time on thoughts or feelings about the whole situation. I'm letting go of my w and know she has her own path she needs to walk.
The sep/div stuff is in limbo. Nothing happening. Her lawyer sent a letter to my lawyer with a removal of an overnight from the schedule the psychologist recommended.
If she doesn't bend and give me what I want she'll have to sue me for a D. NY is one of only a few states that doesn't have a no fault D policy. You have to prove grounds, and she doesn't have it.
Anyway, I've been GALing and building a life for my kids and I. Work is good and I feel really good.
Not much more to update.
Ken,
Good to hear that things are going well with you and the kids. She is who she is and nothing is going to change that too bad for her. Just keep that positive attitude.
As for me same chitt different day. Nothing new in any direction if you know what I mean. Living my life for today, not stressing over the past or worring about the future. It has been working for me, keeps me level.
Tim
Nice to see you here. I was starting to think I was split personality talking to myself on this thread...lol.
I was going to call you the other day to see how things are. I'll give you a call in the next few days.
I was served with D papers yesterday (Friday 6/25). Of course it was full of lies, exaggerations and embellishments. I really didn't expect anything different.
Two weeks ago on Thurs 6/17, I got served with a temporary 'refrain from' order. It's absolutely nuts. That was filled with lies also. A few things that were in there:
1. 'We have had conversations about where she has been without her ever telling me where she had been. My W is afraid either I am following her or I have someone following her'.
Of course, no conversation ever took place. I really don't care what she does or where she goes. I have no interest in her personal life at all. As a matter of fact a few months ago she texted me that she her jury duty was done and they settled the case. I sent a return text saying I think she meant to send that to someone else. She replied it was for me and she wanted me to know what was going on. I replied that information was about her personal life and I don't need to know anything about her personal life.
2. 'Our S is severely allergic to bees and I often forget or just don't bother to take his epipen with me on outdoor outings'.
I have my kids alone all the time and my W is never there. How would she know if I have the epipen or not? Of course, I always have it because I'd never put my S at risk like that. The only time I didn't have it was for a Cub Scout campout and she knew that. It wasn't in it's usual spot so I txt my W to bring it with her. She was coming to meet us for the day with my D. I knew they outing had first aid and they had epipens. When I later asked my W where it was she told me she took it and forgot to put it back.
Also, it's never been proven he even has an allergy to bees. When he was around 1 his arm was read and it looked like he got bit or stung by something. My W found a dead bee in the living room and assumed it was a bee sting. The pediatrician told us there was no way to know if had an allergy to bees because it can develop at any time. So if the test came up negative, he could still have a reaction if he got stung.
3. 'Threats and harrassment have been ongoing throught the whole marriage'.
Come on now...
4. 'I have been texting/emailing/calling her all day and all night even though she repeatedly has asked me to refrain from this'.
In court my L presented the information I compiled about our text/email/phone calls. He told the judge if you look at the records you'll see that there are only small differences in the amount of texts we have both sent on a daily basis. Anywhere from equal to a difference of 10 to 20.
He also had a copy of all the emails we had sent back and forth over the past few months. No threats, no harassment, no constant emails from me.
There were other things in there that can be easily disproved but this list is enough to show where she is in making up stuff. She's desperate and she doesn't have anything real to go on so she is making stuff up.
We went to court on Thursday (6/24) for it. My W showed up with no lawyer and my lawyer was pretty surprised by that. He said he checked the docket and there was no lawyer listed for her.
It was supposed to be just a simple arraignment where the judge would basically find out if there were any objections to the court order, any simple motions, then set another court date.
My lawyer asked the judge to hear some motions he wanted to put into effect. He told the judge that the way my W wrote out her affidavit it sounded like the incident she was referring to happened last week. It actually happened at the end of Jan.
He filled her in that we were in front of her over a year ago with the first refrain from order which my W dropped. He told the judge had been working on a separation agreement and we voluntarily went through a forensic analysis.
He then presented an email where my W invited me to sleep over the house at the end of March for Easter so we could all get up and do their Easter baskets together.
The judge looked at the email and asked my W if she had anything to say about it. My W said she had a lot to say but she didn't think it was in her best interest without her lawyer present. She did say she only invited me to sleep over because I am always yelling at her that we need to do things as a family for the sake of the kids. The email reply I gave her said - "No thanks. There's no point in it. Like you told me, it's all fake anyway. When I talked to you about this kind of stuff last year you looked at me like I was an idiot." So much for me 'forcing' her to do that kind of stuff.
The judge then asked my W about another incident that my W had told her about when she was in front of her to secure the order. My W said it was an incident in the driveway of my brother's house where we argued, I followed her to her car and then didn't let her leave.
My lawyer asked my W when that incident occurred. My W said, "Hold on, I have it in here somewhere", and she proceeded to go through her paperwork. She then looked up and said, "I don't know - it happened sometime between Jan and now."
The judge asked my W where her counsel was. My W said, "I don't know." (In a whiny voice) Her lawyer wasn't even slated to come to court so she new he wasn't going to be there.
The judge was getting a bit annoyed at this point. She was ready to wrap it up and just set another court date.
My lawyer then asked the judge to amend the court order. He told the judge we had a custody rotation in place that has a bi-weekly schedule of a 50/50 sharing arrangement of our two children. He explained the schedule and told her we have been doing it since the end of January. He then asked the judge to put into the court order that this schedule was to continue.
My W started to get angry. I could see it in her face. My W said, "I never agreed to that rotation."
The judge said, "You didn't agree to it? You've been doing it for 5 months already."
My W said, "The Psychologist who did the evaluation told me it would only be for 2 to 3 weeks and I only did it because he (meaning me) wouldn't leave the house. The rotation we are doing isn't even the one he wrote in his final report"
The judge tole my W she needed to get her counsel present and we would set another date.
My lawyer then told the judge my W and I had agreed that I would take the kids to Colorado for a family reunion from July 1 to the 8th and he wanted that to be in the court order also.
My W said, "I only agreed to that because I found out there would be 10 other family members who would be there to take care of the kids." (Insinuating I can't take care of them myself. Meanwhile I have them every other weekend and multiple overnights during the week since Jan)
The judge asked where this whole thing is in the D proceedings. My lawyer said there were none.
My W then said, "I filed papers last week."
My L said, "We haven't gotten anything. My client hasn't been served yet." My W replied, "He was supposed to have been served by now. I don't know why he hasn't been."
The judge then told my L she didn't have jurisdiction to put those things in the order. The judge then said she was going to set a court date for August to address this order.
My L responded that he felt my W was using this refrain from order as a lever in the D court. My W said, "I only took this out because I was afraid how he would react when he got the papers." I don't think the judge heard this because you can't get an order based on some potential future event.
The judge then asked the clerk if there was an earlier date and the clerk gave a date at the end of July. The judge asked for an earlier one. The date was set for July 13th.
She amended the order and put in it that we are to continue the current visitation schedule until July 13th and the father is taking the kids on vacation from July 1 thru the 8th.
On the way out of court I hear my W's mother ask her, "How long does it take to served D papers?" My W said, "I don't know", in a very irritated snappy tone.
So this is my life. It's like I'm in the grandstand watching a circus. She's running around doing all this stuff, panicking, shooting from the hip, making up lies, re-writing the past and present events... it's almost comical. If it wasn't my life it would be a great comedy.
I really don't care if she serves me papers. At this point I have absolutely zero interest in spending any time with her, staying married to her, dating her, even talking to her.
I want my kids. I want equal time with my kids and she refuses to give that to me. I'll fight her on this till I get it. I don't care how long it takes or how much money it costs me. I am absolutely determined and committed to spend time with my children. Period.
I don't care about the house, the money, etc... I can always make more money or buy another house. I can never get back lost time with my children. It's bad enough that I'll only see them 50% of their lives with a 50/50 split. I don't want even less than that - but she is determined to just that.
A year and a half a go she told me she wanted to control when I can see my children. I was astounded. But it's right in line with her control issues. Back then she thought she'd give me every other weekend and one evening per week.(Not even an overnight - just after school until bedtime)
The actual example in the Psych report gave me the kids from Thu after school until Mon after school every other week. Then on the other week I would get them Tue and Thu after school till bed time and Wed overnight.
I posted above she even wanted to take the Wed overnight out. How sickening.
Anyway, this is a long enough post. I'm doing well. I'm rolling with the flow, having a great time with my kids and doing really well at work. My life is good in spite of what's going on with the legal stuff.
wow steady...I think you and I are at the same place in our ending marriages. I hope to keep updated with your sitch and offer support.
Luv
one more thing...I will never understand these women who try to keep their kids from seeing or spending 50/50 time with a father who CARES. There are so many deadbeat dads out there. Leave your feelings at the door when it comes to the kids.
I can't tell you how many D women I've heard that from. They tell me my W should feel lucky that I want to spend that much time with my kids. They say their ex's are so not involved in their lives and they have to do everything as a single mom.
I don't think I wrote it above, but the psychologist also gave me equal 50/50 over the summers and their in-year school breaks (Christmas, Easter/spring).
Here's a study on marriage/divorce and it's effect on happiness I found online a while back. I thought it was very interesting.
Does Divorce Make People Happy?
Findings from a Study of Unhappy Marriages
Call it the "divorce assumption." Most people assume that a person stuck in a bad marriage has two choices: stay married and miserable or get a divorce and become happier.1 But now come the findings from the first scholarly study ever to test that assumption, and these findings challenge conventional wisdom. Conducted by a team of leading family scholars headed by University of Chicago sociologist Linda Waite, the study found no evidence that unhappily married adults who divorced were typically any happier than unhappily married people who stayed married.
Even more dramatically, the researchers also found that two-thirds of unhappily married spouses who stayed married reported that their marriages were happy five years later. In addition, the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later.2
The research team used data collected by the National Survey of Family and Households, a nationally representative survey that extensively measures personal and marital happiness. Out of 5,232 married adults interviewed in the late Eighties, 645 reported being unhappily married. Five years later, these same adults were interviewed again. Some had divorced or separated and some had stayed married.
The study found that on average unhappily married adults who divorced were no happier than unhappily married adults who stayed married when rated on any of 12 separate measures of psychological well-being. Divorce did not typically reduce symptoms of depression, raise self-esteem, or increase a sense of mastery. This was true even after controlling for race, age, gender, and income. Even unhappy spouses who had divorced and remarried were no happier on average than those who stayed married. "Staying married is not just for the childrens' sake. Some divorce is necessary, but results like these suggest the benefits of divorce have been oversold," says Linda J. Waite.
Why doesn't divorce typically make adults happier? The authors of the study suggest that while eliminating some stresses and sources of potential harm, divorce may create others as well. The decision to divorce sets in motion a large number of processes and events over which an individual has little control that are likely to deeply affect his or her emotional well-being. These include the response of one's spouse to divorce; the reactions of children; potential disappointments and aggravation in custody, child support, and visitation orders; new financial or health stresses for one or both parents; and new relationships or marriages.
The team of family experts that conducted the study included Linda J. Waite, Lucy Flower Professor of Sociology at the University of Chicago and coauthor of The Case for Marriage; Don Browning, Professor Emeritus of the University of Chicago Divinity School; William J. Doherty, Professor of Family Social Science and Director of the Marriage and Family Therapy program at the University of Minnesota; Maggie Gallagher, affiliate scholar at the Institute for American Values and coauthor of The Case for Marriage; Ye Luo, a research associate at the Sloan Center on Parents, Children and Work at the University of Chicago; and Scott Stanley, Co-Director of the Center for Marital and Family Studies at the University of Denver.
Marital Turnarounds: How Do Unhappy Marriages Get Happier?
To follow up on the dramatic findings that two-thirds of unhappy marriages had become happy five years later, the researchers also conducted focus group interviews with 55 formerly unhappy husbands and wives who had turned their marriages around. They found that many currently happily married spouses have had extended periods of marital unhappiness, often for quite serious reasons, including alcoholism, infidelity, verbal abuse, emotional neglect, depression, illness, and work reversals.
Why did these marriages survive where other marriages did not? Spouses' stories of how their marriages got happier fell into three broad headings: the marital endurance ethic, the marital work ethic, and the personal happiness ethic.
* In the marital endurance ethic, the most common story couples reported to researchers, marriages got happier not because partners resolved problems, but because they stubbornly outlasted them. With the passage of time, these spouses said, many sources of conflict and distress eased: financial problems, job reversals, depression, child problems, even infidelity.
* In the marital work ethic, spouses told stories of actively working to solve problems, change behavior, or improve communication. When the problem was solved, the marriage got happier. Strategies for improving marriages mentioned by spouses ranged from arranging dates or other ways to more time together, enlisting the help and advice of relatives or in-laws, to consulting clergy or secular counselors, to threatening divorce and consulting divorce attorneys.
* Finally, in the personal happiness epic, marriage problems did not seem to change that much. Instead married people in these accounts told stories of finding alternative ways to improve their own happiness and build a good and happy life despite a mediocre marriage.
The Powerful Effects of Commitment
Spouses interviewed in the focus groups whose marriages had turned around generally had a low opinion of the benefits of divorce, as well as friends and family members who supported the importance of staying married. Because of their intense commitment to their marriages, these couples invested great effort in enduring or overcoming problems in their relationships, they minimized the importance of difficulties they couldn't resolve, and they actively worked to belittle the attractiveness of alternatives.
The study's findings are consistent with other research demonstrating the powerful effects of marital commitment on marital happiness. A strong commitment to marriage as an institution, and a powerful reluctance to divorce, do not merely keep unhappily married people locked in misery together. They also help couples form happier bonds. To avoid divorce, many assume, marriages must become happier. But it is at least equally true that in order to get happier, unhappy couples or spouses must first avoid divorce. "In most cases, a strong commitment to staying married not only helps couples avoid divorce, it helps more couples achieve a happier marriage," notes research team member Scott Stanley.
Would most unhappy spouses who divorced have ended up happily married if they had stuck with their marriages?
The researchers who conduced the study cannot say for sure whether unhappy spouses who divorced would have become happy had they stayed with their marriages. In most respects, unhappy spouses who divorced and unhappy spouses who stayed married looked more similar than different (before the divorce) in terms of their psychological adjustment and family background. While unhappy spouses who divorced were on average younger, had lower household incomes, were more likely to be employed or to have children in the home, these differences were typically not large.
Were the marriages that ended in divorce much worse than those that did not? There is some evidence for this point of view. Unhappy spouses who divorced reported more conflict and were about twice as likely to report violence in their marriage than unhappy spouses who stayed married. However, marital violence occurred in only a minority of unhappy marriages: 21 percent of unhappy spouses who divorced reported husband-to-wife violence, compared to nine percent of unhappy spouses who stayed married.
On the other hand, if only the worst marriages ended up in divorce, one would expect divorce to be associated with important psychological benefits. Instead, researchers found that unhappily married adults who divorced were no more likely to report emotional and psychological improvements than those who stayed married. In addition, the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later.
More research is needed to establish under what circumstances divorce improves or lessens adult well-being, as well as what kinds of unhappy marriages are most or least likely to improve if divorce is avoided.
Other Findings
Other findings of the study based on the National Survey Data are:
* The vast majority of divorces (74 percent) took place to adults who had been happily married when first studied five years earlier. In this group, divorce was associated with dramatic declines in happiness and psychological well-being compared to those who stayed married.
* Unhappy marriages are less common than unhappy spouses; three out of four unhappily married adults are married to someone who is happy with the marriage.
* Staying married did not typically trap unhappy spouses in violent relationships. Eighty-six percent of unhappily married adults reported no violence in their relationship (including 77 percent of unhappy spouses who later divorced or separated). Ninety-three percent of unhappy spouses who avoided divorce reported no violence in their marriage five years later.
Endnotes
1. Examples of the "divorce assumption:" In a review of Cutting Loose: Why Women Who End Their Marriages Do So Well by Ashton Applewhite in Kirkus Reviews, the reviewer writes that "if Applewhite's figures are correct, three-fourths of today's divorces are initiated by women, and if her analysis of the situation is correct, they are better off, at least psychologically, for having taken the big step." The book's publisher describes the book this way: "Cutting Loose introduces 50 women . . . who have thrived after initiating their own divorces. . . . [T]heir lives improved immeasurably, and their self-esteem soared." In an oped in the New York Times, Katha Pollit asks, "The real question . . . [is] which is better, a miserable two-parent home, with lots of fighting and shouting and frozen silences and tears, or a one-parent home (or a pair of one-parent homes) without those things" (June 27, 1997). In a review of The Good Divorce by Constance R. Ahrons in Booklist, we are told that Ms. Ahrons "offers advice and explanations to troubled couples for whom 'staying together for the sake of the children' is not a healthy or viable option."
2. Spouses were asked to rate their overall marital happiness on a 7-point scale, with 1 being the least happy and 7 the most happy. Those who rated their marriage as a 1 or 2 were considered to be very unhappy in their marriages. Almost 8 out of 10 adults who rated their marriage as a 1 or 2 gave that same marriage a 5 or more when asked to rate their marriage five years later.
Something else I found and thought was interesting:
Regrets From Divorce
40% of divorced people regretted their divorce and thought it was preventable. (Australian and New Jersey studies. (William J. Doherty, PhD, Family Social Science Dept., University of Minnesota, Bdoherty@che2.che.umm.edu)
62% of both the ex-husbands and ex-wives said they wished their spouses had worked harder, and 35% of the ex-husbands and 21% of ex-wives said they wished they, themselves, had worked harder. Only about a third of the respondents of each gender thought that both ex-spouses had worked hard enough. ( National Survey on Marriage in America, Ever-divorced Respondents Give Reasons for Their Divorces,2005)
“lack of commitment” was the most frequently given reason for the divorce by every divorced respondents . (National Survey on Marriage in America, National Fatherhood Initiative, 2005)
I just came back from a great 7 day vacation in Breckenridge Colorado with my kids. It was an awesome trip and we had a great time. I taught my S7 how to swim without any flotation and I had my D4 dunking her head under the water.
I took my S whitewater rafting (my D was too small to go); the three of us spent a lot of time in the resort's pool; had the family reunion on Sat; took a gondola ride up the mountain where I took them both on an alpine slide; we toured a gold mine; and a lot of other stuff.
I really needed the vacation and it served as a great break from the garbage I've been dealing with.
My W served me with a refrain from order and D papers (both full of fabrications and twisted 'truth') and she had the nerve to show up at the house today to swap the kids. I emailed her before I went on vacation and told her I wanted to do the swap either at my brothers house or in a public area.
I was getting the kids ready and she walked in the front door. The first thing I asked her was if she got my brother's text this morning. She said she didn't. Then I told her I emailed her. She said, "I didn't check my email today." I told her I emailed her before leaving and said how I wanted to do the swap. Of course, she had nothing to say.
I ignored her and got all my stuff together. She tried to engage me in conversation a few times but I didn't respond with anything but a yes or no if it was warranted. I had my tape recorder on the whole time. Then she has the nerve to offer me salad and chicken she made while we were away.
She is so out of touch with reality it's actually sad. Because of the 'refrain from' order I have been only texting and emailing to her through my brother or sister in law. It's like that for my protection because she's fabricating things and I need to protect myself.
After I got my stuff together I gave my kids a hug and a kiss and walked to the front door. I said goodbye to my kids and about 10 seconds later I heard my W say goodbye to me. I just ignored it.
I have no desire to look at her, talk to her - anything. The outright lying and fabrication has really put that big nail in the coffin for me.
I'm a bit tired and have some catching up to do here.
I had my S Sat night. It's my W's weekend, but we had a minor league ballgame to go to for the cub scouts. The plan was for my S to sleep at my brother's house - that's where I stay when my W has the kids. So we stayed only for a few innings because he got bored. He's still adjusting to the time zone change since we got back on Thu.
He was up late Sat night and woke up late on Sun. About 15 min after she picked him up I get a text asking what time he went to bed and what time he woke. My W said she was asking because she wanted to know where he was at in his sleep pattern because he was starting summer camp Mon (today) and she had to get him up by 7.
I know my W. It was irrelevant where he is in his sleep pattern. It's not like there are a few days to try to readjust his sleep cycle. He's where he's at in his pattern and there's one evening of sleep before he starts camp. He told her we watched two episodes of Star Wars, he woke up late. We're in the middle of a custody battle and she is constantly trying to find things to hold against me. So rather than give her the times, I suggested she not let him nap, put him to bed on time, wake him up at 7am on Mon. I said he is still adjusting back to Eastern Time. If he is tired he will fall asleep on time on Mon night.
Well she didn't like that answer. She texted a few more times asking for the specific times. I ignored them. An hour later I get a text and she tells me my S has a Dr. appointment Mon at 4:40. Well I have both my kids at that time. I sent a text telling her she needs to consult with me before she schedules anything for my kids when it's my time to have them.
I told her I made plans after they get home. If she wanted to take hiim during the day she could. If not, she can handle it when she has him, or I'll handle it when I have him. I said it wasn't urgent and it's something we saw the Dr for 3 weeks ago. A minor skin condition which had cleared up on one part of his body but now showed up on another. Most likely poison ivy. My W is like Chicken Little.
Of course I get no text back. She won't address the fact she needs to talk to me before making any appointments during my time with my kids.
This morning I get a text asking me if I stopped giving my S his medication for his anxiety. I sent her a text back telling her I followed the plan we made with my S psychiatrist where we would taper him off every two weeks and get him off the meds for the summer.
My W then sends a text to my SIL telling her how mad she is at me for not telling her I took him off the meds... blah, blah, blah. My SIL called me and asked, "Why the hell is she calling me? I don't care about her complaints. She acts like I'm one of her girlfriends..." I laughed. I did exactly what we had agreed to do, and still that warranted some kind of complaint.
I won't allow these kinds of control attempts by her and I am consistently taking a stand against them. I had to deal with them throughout our whole marriage and I have had enough of it.
I sat there wondering if I have to deal with this kind of crap for the next 14 years till my D is 18. I really hope not.
Went to court today. The second court appearance for the refrain from order. I waited two hours, walked in, stood there for 5 minutes then we all left. Gotta love the legal process. We have a trial date for Aug 23.
My W showed up carrying a box. My L looked at me and asked, "What's in the box?" I laughed and told him it's beyond me. He also asked me later on why my W always looks angry. Again I laughed. Well, that's just who she's become.
L doesn't get her team. He said "You know, she filed for a D but if someone were to ask me what she wanted, I'd have to say I have no idea. They haven't responded to anything I've sent them, they don't know what they're doing, etc.." He said they won't do anything and we'll have to do their jobs and ours. I asked him if he was going to bill them for their half...lol
He's a good guy and I like him. He's a good L. The whole thing is like watching a circus from the stands. I sit there and watch my W run around hopping through hoops, jumping out of clown cars, spinning on the trapeze, riding a unicycle...and at the end of it all, nothing has really happened.
Oh well. One day it will all be a fading memory.
Saturday my D had a soccer game. My W has the kids so I met them there at noon. My D didn't make the first two games so I went up to the coach and talked to him. Turns out my D wasn't on his roster. So I talked to the other coach - same thing. I asked my W what the name of the coach who called her was. I asked the referee if he knew the coach and he told me they played at 9 am that morning.
So we decided to sit and watch the game that was going on so my D could see what it was like.
There we were, the four of us sitting in these small bleachers just like a happy family. I talked small talk here and there with my W. I had been ignoring her when I've seen her but I decided that was too juvenile. lol
The plan was I was going to take my S and D to my SIL's parents house to celebrate my S's birthday - it was Friday. So I took my S to the house to pick up their bathing suits and a change of clothes and grabbed some drinks. I put seltzer and ice into a sports cup for my W. I had asked her if she wanted anything from the house before we left and she said no. It was sooooo hot out I figured I'd bring her a drink anyway.
My S and I got back and we watched the rest of the game. My W thanked me for the drink. She ended up drinking the whole thing.
I took my S and D to the party at 1:30 and we spent most of the time in the pool. It was a good time. We then went out for ice cream and then I dropped them off. My brother came with me because I don't want to do any drop off's without a third person present. My W has started fabricating things and I don't want to be in a position where we're alone and she has an opportunity to make something up.
After that I just hung out at my brother's house.
My W emailed me earlier today asking about switching some days in August. She said she wants to take the kids camping. I told her I didn't see a problem with switching but I would like to know who was going and where.
I have a strong suspicion she is dating someone and I want to make sure she isn't bringing the kids around him.
She emailed me a little later and told me she moved all of her stuff back into the master bedroom. I've been staying there since November of '08 while she's been staying in the guest room on the other side of the house. She said she doesn't want to be sleeping that far away from the kids anymore.
I heard this at the end of a movie named Separation City last night. I thought it was fitting for here:
Love is a moving sea.
There are times when the tide goes out, leaving you stranded.
Then you have to be strong and patient,
And wait for the moon and the stars to work their magic again.
Brought a tear to my eye.
My L set up a 4 way meeting with my W and her lawyer, me and my lawyer. It's to try to come up with some agreement before we go to court on Thursday - I'm contesting her grounds for D (NY is a grounds state, but they just passed a law to make it the last state to adopt a no-fault; just hasn't been signed by the Governor) It's Monday at 10am. This should be interesting. Not sure what his game plan is but I guess I'll find out on Mon.
The four way meeting was a waste of time. My L is baffled as to why it even occurred. It turned out it was initiated by my W and her lawyer. I thought perhaps their positions had changed, but that wasn't the case.
Same old record of her wanting to take control of the kids and basically leave me with nothing except every other weekend and two after school till bedtime evenings. No way.
Recap of everything:
lol citygirl. I can't believe he actually took that deal. But good for you. I never even thought about the cruel and inhumane angle with an A.
My W told me she wanted a D in Jan 09. We lived together in the house back then. She thought I would just roll over, give her the house, the kids, my money, and walk away from 65k that I walked into the house with. Before I saw a L I figured that's how it was going to go. After that L meeting... everything changed.
She caught me taping her (I was doing what my L advised) and tried to get restraining order. After the 3rd trip to court she withdrew it. It was weak and full of lies and my L and I were confident it would be dismissed.
Went into a Psychological Analysis for custody of our 2 kids (D4, S7). She thought she'd walk out of there with the kids. Sorry, didn't turn out that way. I got 50% of their awake time, full 50% summers and school holiday breaks. She didn't like this at all. The report really slammed her too - drinking dependency, she can do no wrong and I can do no right viewpoint, blames other people for her problems, will have a problem co-parenting, to name a few.
Came up with temp 50/50 custody with the psychologist. A week before we were going to start, we get into an argument, she's punching me in the back, I threaten to call the police, she calls them.
She refuses to implement the temp custody plan. I press the issue and basically force it. Told her I won't leave the house at all. We rotate in and out of the house while the kids stay put. This has been going on since Jan.
She closes our joint account where both our checks went and takes the money. I force her to put her name on all house utilities that had only my name - told her I would just cancel them...oil, phone, cable, garbage p/u, etc.
She tries to get me to pay 60/40 split on all bills. I set it up so she pays the diff in our income first, then when monthly $ are even I do 50/50. She is livid...and still is. I won't let her bankrupt me.
She gets fed up it's taking so long. In June she attempts another restraining order based on the Jan incident with the police. She lies in her affidavit. She shows up without counsel. My lawyer gets the OP changed to reflect us continuing to do our current schedule. Now it's on paper.
She serves me D papers. I counter with a motion to dismiss. My L told me her divorce papers (cruel and inhumane) are the weakest he's ever seen. She has stuff in there that has nothing to do with any grounds. Again more lies and fabrications that can be dis-proven with solid evidence and testimony from our MC.
She requested a 4 way conference, I thought maybe she had changed her stance on custody. L and I show up this morning and wasted our time. It was ridiculous. We left and my L said he doesn't have any idea what they're doing. The deadline for them to respond to his motions on the D and the OP have passed a few weeks ago.
I took the firm stance early. Took me a while to really dig in for the fight, but I've hardened up enough to really only think with my head. My heart's out of the pic.
She keeps pulling the trigger with short sighted moves and it's boxing her into a corner. Thu we go to court on the motion to dismiss the D action. I have my reasons I want it denied.
If we take it all the way through the courts I'm looking at another 9 to 18 months.
I have my kids..that's all that matters to me. Everything else is peripheral.
Hey, Steady.
Well, I'm gonna have to watch you more closely as my sitch will very likely follow yours.
Once W gets told in mediation that my proposal (all legally entitled) is that rather than clearing the debts and splitting the home assets, I take the top 94K and the remaining debts are split, I'm guessing reconciliation and her "friends act" will disappear.
So instead of being about 30K black, she'll "get the D she wants" plus 24K in the red.
I'm also thinking OM (who took 16K in debt out of guilt) is gonna see Sugar Momma" in a whole new light. A single mom, 6 years his senior AND a debt will take the shine off.
ANd I'm sure she'll try all sorts of crap and lies to make my position look weak. She'll attack on custody. "Mom's are best"
But there are WALLS of books showung that, for D's under 8, the absence of the FATHER is a greater disadvantage. PLus, I have ton's of witnesses to my parenting skills and stability.
But we're likely gonna have to go through the entire exercise in futility.
Wost thing she could attempt is to try to engage lawyers to eat my momey. the old "If I can't have it you can't either"
Ooh. Fun times ahead.
The irony is that the stuff posted on my thread in the last few days has really changed my attitude.
The thing about "Love without Expectation/Remove your needs from the Equation" actually required I sit for a minute. I'm officially FEELING like I'm getting somewhere now.
Hey, Steady.
Well, I'm gonna have to watch you more closely as my sitch will very likely follow yours.
Once W gets told in mediation that my proposal (all legally entitled) is that rather than clearing the debts and splitting the home assets, I take the top 94K and the remaining debts are split, I'm guessing reconciliation and her "friends act" will disappear.
So instead of being about 30K black, she'll "get the D she wants" plus 24K in the red.
When my W and I moved up here we had around 130k from our last house. Her brother has money (works in finance) and so do her parents. They told my W they would help us buy a house up here and do it in a way that our mortgage would be around the same amount we had in Virginia.
They wrote gift checks out to my kids, me and my W. They ended up gifting 33k to me and the rest were gifted around to my kids and W. A year ago I was willing to just walk away from the gift money. I still cared what my W and her family thought of me. Thinking with my heart. After she pulled her stunt calling the police in January and sitting on the couch huddled up with my kids that really snuffed out a lot of the remaining embers I had to continue to be nice about these issues.
The lies and fabrications that were in the order of protection and the D papers completed the extinguish. When I told her that night "You're going to pay" I was referring to these issues. Up until that point I was playing soft-ball legally and was still willing to let go of things I was legally 'entitled' to.
The gift money came up in our meeting yesterday and my L said I would take the gift money credit and my W would take hers. She looked at my L and said, "Is he going to take the gift money? He told me he wasn't going to because he knew it was my brother's money and it was given so we can buy the house." She was pissed.
The really cool thing about yesterday is I could see her attacks and attempts at manipulation. Everything that came out of her mouth had an element of attacking me. She caught herself at one point saying, "My house" and quickly changed it to our. It's amazing what you can see when you don't get caught up in the emotions of the moment.
She thought she was going to get the kids. That didn't work out - we're doing a 50/50 split right now and she can't stand it. She thought she was going to take the gift money. That's not going to work out. She thought she was going to get a restraining order two times, so far that hasn't worked out. She actually thought I was going to walk away from my house, walk away from the time with my kids, giver her my money. She said at one point she thought I would be out by Easter of 2009.
One of my W's problems is she can't stand it when things are not done her way. She can't stand it when things don't go her way. She can't handle stress. She's had chronic anxiety since she was a kid. The pressure is mounting and I think at some point she's going to blow a gasket. All the moves she has made have been short-sighted and done from an emotional knee-jerk response.
We put a motion in to dismiss her D filing and I would love to see that happen.
I'm also thinking OM (who took 16K in debt out of guilt) is gonna see Sugar Momma" in a whole new light. A single mom, 6 years his senior AND a debt will take the shine off.
Yeah. The old collapse of the fantasy life. I once told my W she was chasing a rainbow.
And I'm sure she'll try all sorts of crap and lies to make my position look weak. She'll attack on custody. "Mom's are best"
But there are WALLS of books showing that, for D's under 8, the absence of the FATHER is a greater disadvantage. Plus, I have ton's of witnesses to my parenting skills and stability.
I can pretty much guarantee it. Just look at her past behavior. My W's actually keeps getting worse as time goes on and she doesn't get what she wants. In the psych report he said my W will not make a good co-parent because of her belief she can do no wrong and I can do no right. He wrote that I will make a good co-parent because I understand people will have different styles of parenting.
All I can tell you is take good notes. I wrote down every time I was with the kids and what we did. I basically covered a few items in my journal - my W's drinking, any out of the ordinary interactions, things that were said between us that might pertain to our sitch or the kids, when I was with the kids both with my W and alone. I detailed what we did when the four of us were together.
But we're likely gonna have to go through the entire exercise in futility.
Do you know where your W stands on physical custody?
Worst thing she could attempt is to try to engage lawyers to eat my money. the old "If I can't have it you can't either"
I asked my W on Sat if she was aware of the conference set for Mon. She said she initiated it. She told me she thought the lawyers were milking us monetarily. I told her I didn't agree. I said my L has actually been very good to me.
After I left I realized she's the one wasting our money. Just the two attempts at a restraining order has cost me close to $8,000. Plus an additional $2400 I had to pay for my percentage of the Psych analysis.
I've kind of gotten numb to the legal stuff now. I have been getting a lot better at separating that from my life with the kids and alone.
The irony is that the stuff posted on my thread in the last few days has really changed my attitude.
Believe me, it's helped me tremendously. I have a few threads I follow and I continue to learn new stuff and have some things I already learned brought back into the forefront. This place and the people in it are awesome. I have no idea where I'd be right now without it. Certainly no where near as well as I am.
The thing about "Love without Expectation/Remove your needs from the Equation" actually required I sit for a minute. I'm officially FEELING like I'm getting somewhere now.
I'll have to thin about that myself. I've worked very hard at keeping the expectations out by not trying to mind read and predict the future. When I just follow the bouncing ball life seems to lead me to really nice places.
I went to the Rite Aid to pick up some nicotine gum. I've seen the woman behind the counter a number of times. I did the usual greeting and asked her how she was. She told me she's counting the days down to her last day. She said she was moving.
She told me she was moving back to her home town here in NY. She said she just got back together with her ex husband. I asked her how long she separated. She told me 23 years. I laughed.
She said she's stayed in touch with him over the years because of the kids and he's been sober for 19 years. She went into some more details. She never followed through with the D - I laughed and said, so you're still married. I suggested they get remarried because it's a whole new thing. She said they are planning on doing that.
I wished her luck and left. As soon as I came out the front door I started to think - did life just give me a piece of something? Of course I then had the thought - I can interpret anything in many different ways. Didn't give it much thought after that.
I love life. And I mean life in an over-compassing sense. Not just my life. Which I really do love too in spite of some of the circumstances I find myself in.
Steady
I'll catch up on your sitch and start posting to you.
Steady
Hey man read through your thread.
I really appreciated what you had to say over on CD's thread.
I very much agree with your points.
This is a painful process but
we do learn some amazing things along the way...
Nothing much going on. I stayed up way late on Monday night typing a response up to my W's response to my motion to dismiss her Divorce complaint.
It's funny how this works. She files for D, we put a motion in to dismiss, the counter motion, then we get to respond. Then it's done - the judge takes it all and makes a ruling.
I had the kids all day yesterday and our plans kept getting changed up. We ended up going to a local restaurant for lunch and then took a ride over to a bridge that was restored and turned into a walking bridge. It used to be an old railroad bridge that's been out of commission - it spans the Hudson River. They fixed it up and now you can walk or bike across it now. It's a little over a mile long.
It was really hot and humid so we didn't walk much. After that I dropped the kids off at my brothers house. I had an appointment with a lawyer to draw up a will.
I went to my brothers and played with my kids for a little while then took them back to my house to hand them off to Kathy. As we were leaving my D said she wanted to stay with Aunt ---- (SIL). It was very cute. She's been in this groove where she always wants mommy so it's nice to see when she reaches out in a different direction.
Later on in the evening W sent me a text telling me D asked if she could sleep over my brother's house with my S and I tonight. We split the kids every Wed so one Wed I'm in my house with my S and the other Wed. I'm at my brother's with my S. So I sent a text back saying that would be good. So I'll have them both tonight.
Steady
Good talking to you last night, just read through your thread quickly, sounds very familiar. I have no real advice at this point. Your wife sounds very confused. Rewritten history, anger, she has got it all. Keep being the great DAD that you seem to be. They need you!
The walking railroad bridge is great!
If your kids ever want to be on a swim team let me know.
Thanks for stopping by Lance. Last nice night was cool. I'll keep the swim team in mind. Both my kids love the water.
After work today I came home to swap the kids. My D has been having a really hard time the past 3 weeks - always wanting mommy. So she was crying when I came home and made a fuss about changing over.
It only lasted about 10 minutes until I finally got her distracted into doing a puzzle with me. I know it's probably a stage she is going through.
When I was putting her to bed she said to me, "I want to be with you and mommy at the same time. Just like J (neighbors daughter). She is with her mommy and her daddy at the same time."
A little while later she said, "Dad I want you and mommy together and with me and we can do what we did when I was like 2. With J (her brother) too."
It's a bit tough to hear it from her and it's expected. It's never easy on kids, especially when they're young and don't really have the mental capacity to understand what's going on.
Last week both my kids, independently, told me, "Mom said to not let you on her pillows. She said she can't get the smell out."
LOL. Great thing to tell your kids about their dad. I posted earlier she moved all her stuff back into the master bedroom - that's where I've been since Nov. 08. So now we are sharing the same bed as we rotate in and out of the house. So of course both of our pillows are on the bed.
Oh well.
I have the kids all weekend but we haven't really planned anything yet. I told them tomorrow morning we're going to make up a list of things that they want to do this weekend. We'll see how that goes - getting them to agree on anything is sometimes a monumental task.
Have great weekend, Steady!
I listened to NMMNG on the road today. It helped to "hear it".
Got home and started on N.U.T.s. Looks good, too.
Weather here is crappy so looks like cleaning the house this weekend.
So I had a nice weekend with the kids. It could have been better but for some reason I was really exhausted. Just couldn't get up and running at full speed. It's ok, it happens sometimes.
We still ended up having some fun. I did a lot of painting with my daughter and that was fun. We did some normal stuff - food shopping, ran a few errands, played outside a little bit. My S has been mesmerized by a Star Wars video game he plays on my laptop.
My D told me the other night, "Daddy, if you were mommy I would want to spend more time with you. I just want mommy because she's mommy." I laughed. She's been fussing a lot the past 3 weeks wanting mommy when she's with me.
When my W came home this afternoon to swap the kids my D wouldn't let go of me. She said to my W, "Mommy can't daddy stay with you and me and brother for a while?" My W basically ignores statements like this and once again she did. My D asked her a few times and my W finally said, "Daddy has to go to work."
My W is taking the kids 'camping' from Tue through Fri. She's taking them a few hours away to camp in the backyard of one of her HS friends' parents house. I guess they're going to set up some tents back there. This guy was (is?) in love with my W ever since HS. He used to email her and she would basically make fun of him. She's bee spending a lot of time with him and his family and this is the guy I think she is hooking up with.
Every 4th of July she usually goes to her brother's lakehouse and this year she drove 4 hours to go hang out with this dude and supposedly his family. My kids feed me this information. I really don't want to hear it but kids are gonna talk.
I'm not going to see the kids for a week so they gave me a lot of kisses and some giant hugs to tie me over till then. I handed my D to my W and my D started crying. She kept saying, "I want daddy." That was nice since I always hear her saying she wants her mom when I have her.
I think hearing my D say this stuff is a reality check for my W. You know I got the old, kids are resilient spiel from her in the past. Resilient, yeah, but there's a whole impact on them which has nothing to do with resiliency.
When I got to work I got a text from my W. She said, "D says you are going away really far and she doesn't know where you are going. Are you going away?"
I just responded back, "I haven't talked to them at all about my plans." Lat week she said she wanted to give the kids to me this weekend (it's her weekend) because she was taking them for the week. I told her I was not going to be around this weekend and had plans.
About 30 minutes later my S called me and said, "Dad where are you going? I said what do you mean? He said I want to know, Jess wants to know and mommy wants to know. I told him I was at work and I'll be working all week. He said oh, ok. Then he asked me to drop off his star wars disk he left in my laptop.
So that's the poop.
Hey Steady.
Read your post on my thread and thought I'd pop over here for a change.
So you are alone this week until Friday evening?
That may explain the not sleeping thing.
I seem to get mentally energized when I'm on my own. Like "this is my week to get things done; work on me; get ready for my week with D nexy week" And I can't seem to call it a day. I go alll day and then start trying to get my brain straight and level as the day winds down. Consequently, can't sleep. Almost like I'm afraid I'm gonna miss something.
This week I learned that burning the candle too long sucks the life out of me about day 4. yesterday. Slept well last night for a change.
I wanna pass on what Wonka said to me.
Today is a new day which calls for actual implementation of action steps.....why don't you write down some doable list of goals here for the week and focus on them
When was the last time you did something nice for you? Bought something you wanted or actually need but keep putting it off? New jeans or something. (Guys rarely buy new clothes. We stick to our "uniforms")
Sorry but I get the feeling you are spinning around in your own little world and missing the scenery and fun of "the river". Look outside "the boat'
I like the river analogy so I'm sticking with it.
You and I have today and tomorrow before we start revolving around our kids again.
What do you
want to do with these two days?
Don't think I'm spinning around CD. I did exactly what I wanted to do last night.
Which was just about nothing.
When the kids are here I usually work late and a lot of times on Sat and/or Sun. I do that on the days I don't have them to make up hours for coming in later in the morning because I have to drop them off at school or camp (summer) or I take off time because I have them and they're off.
So it's nice to be able to leave at 3:30 and take care of stuff or just relax.
I'm going to the supermarket tonight and pick up a beef roast to cook in the crock pot tomorrow. Gonna get my haircut too.
I took myself to the Diner on Mon night for a nice Cheeseburger Deluxe and french fries - brown gravy on the side for dipping the fries...yum.
I bought myself clothes about 3 or 4 weeks ago. I never used to do that but I now do it pretty regularly.
Watching the Kayak group for a day when I don't have the kids. Did some rock climbing for the first time a few weeks ago.
The other day I went online for a college close to my house. I'm seriously thinking about going for a Master's Degree in Mental Health Counseling. It's a field I've always been very interested in and it's an idea I've considered before.
I'm a huge advocate of change and have gone through quite a few massive changes in my life. Complete paradigm shifts and such. I know how to learn so I feel I can do just about anything I want to do - and I've proved it many times.
I do take care of myself and make sure I'm building a life I like. The sitch doesn't really occupy my mind much so when I'm alone I can do the stuff I want to do with no distractions.
Even watched a good movie last night.
Alright then. Nevermind.
I must have read something in the "tone of your font"
Sounds like I'm the only one who needs to do more GAL'ing.
Good work, Steady.
I could always use more GAL'ing. Not sure what I'm going to do tonight. I got an email with a Net Income Statement which I need to fill out by Monday. Tons of stuff - expenses, itemized, etc..
Yahooo... more wasted time and energy in this process.
Oh, yay.
Do it tonight so you don't have it over your head on Little Friday
I'm shampooing carpet and sorting through my clothes for "hate it's"
Nah, not tonight. I have until Monday and I don't have the kids this weekend. I'll probably do it tomorrow or Friday.
Quiet night tonight. Just relaxed. Listening to NMMNG right now. It's amazing how this is pegging me to a tee.
It's now become so obvious what happened in a big piece of my R with my W.
Absolutely. Gives me greater hope that if she comes out of the ether, it would be better than ever. A lot of work to do (she'd have a ton of issues and remorse to go through) but I can see the pattern my behaviour co-created. She was reacting to me.
Breaks my heart.
Gonna make it to "Friday" tomorrow?
I think it was a combination of both. You were reacting off her and she was reacting off you. It becomes a perpetual motion machine.
For example in my sitch: My W has controlling tendencies she got from her mom. I have passive tendencies I got from my dad. So when we got together, my passiveness put her in control of the R and her controlling tendencies came out - that in turn pushed me away due my reaction to being controlled, that forced her to take even more control, creating more resentment in me...etc.
If I had stepped up as a man (ala NMMNG) she wouldn't have been able to take control. Now that would have done one of two things - she would keep trying to take control and that would be the conflict where I was standing strong and not allowing it: would have destroyed the relationship years ago.
Or, her control tendencies would have been kept in check and my 'run and hide' response wouldn't be triggered.
Now if there is conflict between us and we could have identified it - she would have to fix her control issues, and I would have to fix my 'run and hide' issues - making for a healthier relationship.
Don't fall into the trap of taking the full blame in the conflicting issues. It's the coming together of the dysfunction and how they play off each other that causes the problems.
Wow. I just had a nice realization a few minutes ago. I was thinking about how Whiskey Tango had posted "You treat people the way they deserved to be treated."
Because I've been listening and reading No More Mister Nice Guy it's really sparked my thought process in this area.
In the past I would treat people with understanding and kindness (for the most part as best as I could) regardless of how they were being toward me.
To me there was a conflict between 'treating people the way I wanted to be treated' and 'treat people the way they deserved to be treated'.
Then I realized - I would want to be treated the way I deserved to be treated. If I'm being a smuck I would want to be treated as a person who is being a smuck. If I'm out of line I want to be called on it. If I'm being selfish I want to be treated as someone who is behaving that way. To me, that's taking full responsibility for myself. Therefore, if someone is lying and fabricating things about me (my W is currently on a tear doing this) I will treat her like someone who is doing that to me.
So with this in mind I draw boundaries that say I will not accept that kind of behavior. I will not be friends with someone who treats me like that. I will be pleasant and civil toward her but I will not treat her as I would treat a friend. I will do my best to be this way especially for my children. If she pulls unacceptable behavior toward me I will call her on it.
I will protect my boundaries because I know I am worth protecting.
If her behavior changes, I will change my behavior and boundaries accordingly.
<end of transmission>
So with this in mind I draw boundaries that say I will not accept that kind of behavior. I will not be friends with someone who treats me like that. I will be pleasant and civil toward her but I will not treat her as I would treat a friend. I will do my best to be this way especially for my children. If she pulls unacceptable behavior toward me I will call her on it.
I will protect my boundaries because I know I am worth protecting.
If her behavior changes, I will change my behavior and boundaries accordingly.
LOVE THIS!!
I would want to be treated the way I deserved to be treated. If I'm being a smuck I would want to be treated as a person who is being a smuck. If I'm out of line I want to be called on it. If I'm being selfish I want to be treated as someone who is behaving that way. To me, that's taking full responsibility for myself.
Very nice, Steady. Gonna "Sticky that sucka" on my mirror, too.
Interesting how if everyone set proper boundaries, the world would have a built in "self-correcting attitude adjustment" mechanism.
You're bein' a d1ck? I'm calling you on and I'll expect the same, thank you.
Everyone wins.
I never saw the reciprocity benefit of boundaries before.
YOU, SIR, are onto something!!
This was a post to a question I had on the Showing Strength and Love thread:
Post is by gucci loafer -
Am I missing something here? I believe I am or I wouldn't be asking the question.
Sometimes you can NOT display strength and love. It sometimes just isn't possible to display them both at the same time...
Sometimes you have to display strength and allow them to believe that you don't love them.
Many display love and don't allow them to believe you have strength because of that.
Sometimes the correct thing is to display strenght and loving by being strong and loving YOURSELF.. It isn't always about loving them.
The strongest thing you can sometimes do is to show NO LOVE.Sometimes the loving thing looks like the hateful thing on the surface...
Those who battle this issue of how to display strength and loving are usually onlhy struggling with cake eating, door mat behavior and lettting go. They are usually struggling more with being strong than with loving. They sometimes want others to help them be enablers by telling them to "just keep on loving them, they will come around."
There should be more help on how to display strength than how to display love. We have an endless supply of people on this site trying to show how much they love their wayward. They do and try everything they can think of and even things others tell them to do to show love... That isn't the issue. The issue is strength."
Hey Steady
Thanks for the above^^^^^^
Sometimes you can NOT display strength and love.
Exactly how are these defined?
I think THAT is where the rubber meets the road and the source of a lot of confusion on here IMO.
I believe I went too far the other way (strength) in my M because of her crisis and I had her alcoholic friend living with us.
I am learning boundaries and detachment now.
And a different way of defining love.
A matter worth discussing and I would like your opinion.
There's a part of me that loves my W. This is self obvious. How do I show that love to her when she is treating me with such disrespect? A component of love is friendliness, caring about someones personal life, being physically in the same location, connecting through talking, etc...
While my W continues to treat me as she is, I can not keep my dignity and my boundaries in tact AND show love.
(Bear with me, this is a work in progress since you pointed us in this direction)
Instead I choose to love me. I will treat her with respect but I am not interested in being friends with her, helping her, being there for her, etc...
If she changes her behavior to me then I will then look at my boundaries and adjust them according to MY goals/wants and needs.
I'm thinking love lets go, allows people to do and be who they are, allows them to walk the path they are on. When her path conflicts with mine then I need to create a boundary.
Strength stands up and does the right thing regardless of what people think. My W may be totally pissed off at my boundary and it could drive her further away - I will keep my boundary regardless because it is there for my protection and not for her benefit or to get some kind of reaction out of her.
Even if she doesn't respect me for drawing the boundary I keep it there for something more important - my self respect.
Here's the thread I copied the above post from:
How to Display Strength AND Loving
I'm thinking love lets go, allows people to do and be who they are, allows them to walk the path they are on. When her path conflicts with mine then I need to create a boundary.
That is spot on my man. This how I view love too. You can let them go without the anger, resentment etc.
Strength stands up and does the right thing regardless of what people think. My W may be totally pissed off at my boundary and it could drive her further away
Agree again. After I posted this to you I wrote down my own answer:
Strength is standing up for your own core. Your own beliefs and setting boundaries for YOU.
And most importantly enforcing those boundaries.
It is NOT controlling/manipulating.
I'll read the thread you referenced.
Thanks man.
At the end of the work day I sent my W a text to have the kids call me. They went away from Mon to today and I wanted to talk to them.
She sent a text back saying my D4 said no and my S7 said he'd call me later. I was a little annoyed at my W.
I sent a text back saying: "I usually don't give them a choice. I dial the phone and hand it to them whenever you ask to talk to them."
Two minutes later the phone rang and it was my S. I initially thought she was going to text back some defensive rationalization of why she doesn't just call and give them the phone but I was pleasantly surprised that didn't happen.
My S got off the phone and my W got on. We talked for a few minutes about some logistic stuff then got off.
I feel a little conflicted by a desire to try to put my family back together and a desire to just move on and leave it all behind me.
Hey, Steady.
That's a conflict that comes to me a lot, too. I'm not looking forward to the work required to put it all back together; having to work my way past the A; and still it could blow up in my face later.
I, like you, am quite a way down the road "past" them and I have less and less inclination to want to slow down for the catch-up. I certaily am not willing to stop and wait. All that tells me is that, if they turn toards us, they better run.
I hope that helps a little.
Yeah CD it does. Always nice to know I'm not alone. I know it will never come together if she doesn't do the work on herself. But like you, I can see what my W and I could/could have built if she did it. It's a like a fantasy that I don't hold much hope of ever happening.
All I can do is keep moving forward and be the best I can be and let life unfold as it will.
It's a like a fantasy that I don't hold much hope of ever happening.
You can keep expectations at zero and still have hope.
I suggest not to give up hope since all is not always as they seem to be.
Thanks Lance,
It's a like a fantasy that I don't hold much hope of ever happening.
You can keep expectations at zero and still have hope.
I never thought of it that way.
I suggest not to give up hope since all is not always as they seem to be.
So true. I sing this song all the time here but still get caught in the trap of projecting. Did you ever see the Zen story 'We'll See' - my favorite.
I got a call from my L this morning and he got a fax from W's attorney saying she dropped the Order of Protection attempt. We were supposed to go to trial on it tomorrow and she had no leg to stand on.
I was pissed because this is the second time she's done this. Tried to get an OP, drag me into court, pay lawyer fees, then drops it when trial comes. She did this last year and dropped it the day of the trial. We would have beat that one. And we would have beat this one.
I had good hard evidence which showed she was lying and twisting things around.
I was hoping to go through with it and get it dismissed - at least to clear my name. The crap she put into those OP's...makes me sick.
But then I realized, the people who actually care about me, and the ones I care about already know the truth. It's her family and friends who don't. But that's her life and not mine.
Yesterday afternoon I got a voice message from my son. "Daddy can you come and get me? Mommy isn't playing with me and she's not being nice."
He's so cute. How I love my kids. I could never explain it in words.
Aw, I love your son too! I suppose there is nothing you can do to prevent her from filing those lies in the future, huh?
Hi MM. Thanks for stopping by.
Nothing I can do to stop her. The divorce complaint is full of them also. I can only do my best to prove them wrong. On both of these OP's I had a lot of evidence which would prove her lying/fabricating. But neither one of them got to the point where I could do that.
I imagine she will say she dropped this one because the D is filed and moving. Of course, that would be a lie because it makes no sense. If she believed she could have gotten an OP she would have pursued it because it would have given her a very strong weapon in D proceedings.
I just left a freakin long post at your thread. You're doing well. Just keep moving forward focusing on you.
Steady, I'd be keeping that Vmail. Forward to the L for "safe keeping"
How I love my kids. I could never explain it in words.
That, my friend, is something I think we all have in common!
PEI
I usually record them and put em on my computer. Although you know kids...lol. He's done that to me also. He probably did something and she told him she wasn't going to play with him anymore.
Yes PEI I believe that's true. Although there are many people who have no problem splitting up a family and losing time with their kids.
I wanted to drop this post from the
How to Display Strength and Love thread over here. It helps me to remember:
Ultimately Bear, the true consequence of this lack of respect is the loss of a "friendly" relationship which he said he wanted (as in 'Gary Unmarried') and I thought was best for the kids. I will not be a bitch, but I do not want to be 'friends' with my stbxH.
Exactly the stance I took in regards to my W's disrespecting me.
We can't somehow force them to be respectful, but I do have the power to eject from my life anyone who does not treat me with respect.The reason for asking is I always see "set a boundary" and that entails (by DB standards) to explain it and define the consequesnces then enforce them.
They aren't always explained in advance. I never told my W if she disrespects me I will eject her from any friend status. To me, that's just common sense for people. I'm just treating her as if she has been ejected. I won't even bring it up unless she asks. She may ask she may not.
It's not done for a reaction out of her - it's done because it's healthy for me and my self respect as a person.The bringing people into the house is a definite one to address beforehand because it is set for the kids to prevent possible damage to them.
I sent a text to my W asking her if she can take the kids tomorrow. I have them tonight through 4:00 tomorrow. Since there is no school they're with me. She said in the beginning of the summer she would be available to take them if I had to work on the days I had them.
She sent a text back saying she couldn't take them tomorrow. She works for the school and did extra work over the summer but she finished that last week.
It's fine though. I expected her to not take them if I needed her to.
She also said she bought a chicken and wanted to know if I had made dinner plans for the kids tonight - she said she would cook it today so the kids and I can have it tonight. I sent a text saying I will take care of dinner. I also asked her if she can/wanted to take the kids any daytime I have them from now until school starts.
I sent a follow up thanking her for her offer on the chicken and I appreciated it.
She said she could take my S this Thurs (we split the kids on Wed nights - my S is with me and my D is with W) but won't be able to take them next Mon or Wed.
My first inclination was she is doing this because she doesn't want to help out - since I know she isn't working right now. But then I thought, well it is my responsibility and she doesn't have to do it if she doesn't want to. No biggie. I'll handle it.
About half an hour later I get a text. "Are you sure you don't want the chicken? It's a good day to run the oven."
I thought about it for a while. Do I accept a nice gesture from her? Do I want to? Would it be nice not to have to cook dinner tonight? What's her motive? (Something about my W. She tends to 'buy' people by doing things for them or bringing them gifts. She is a people pleaser so I wonder if my acceptance of her offer somehow buys her some room 'off the hook' for what she's been doing)
I laughed at myself and made it really simple. What do I want?
I decided I'd like to have the chicken and I won't have to cook.
So I sent her text and said, "Ok. I'll give them chicken tonight. Thanks. It's very nice of you to offer."
Too weak? Fine? Any input? It's been quite a while since she offered to do something nice for me, so I really wasn't prepared for it.
No. Not weak at all IMO.
You initially rejected it nicely.
She re-offered. You are aware of potential alterior motives.
You decided what was best for you.
And you were civil but not melty.
Nice work, Steady
Another good post to copy from another thread:
Coach’s “Go by your Values and Beliefs, not Your Feelings” philosophy:
Respond in a way that reflects your values and beliefs not your feelings. As a Coach and a former military officer I know lots of ways to change how you are feeling. Feelings are fleeting, can be manipulated, can be dysfunctional, situational and are a poor compass.
Prisons are full of people who went with their feelings. To be a great DBer you need to be able to think. Detach and look at the situation in 360 degrees. State your goals (which are consistent with your beliefs) and come up with a plan of action. If your actions work keep doing it, if not try something new. Open your mind and don't let fear hold you back from acting.
If you love your spouse and let them go. It's not lying to do that, even though you don't feel that is the best thing to do. Understand your feelings, know why you feel the way you do and take healthy productive action based on your goals.
You have a choice in how you handle things. You can choose the path of love, self-respect, healthy communication, forgiveness and responsibility for your self. Or you can choose to be a victim, make others responsible for your feelings and let things happen to you. "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Don't let your feelings define you. Let your actions which is a sign of your character. Handle it.
Cheers
Coach
And yet another one: (This is me working through a dilemna I have concerning boundaries/attitudes/love/friendliness. It's a constant learning curve for me, usually swinging from one extreme to the other trying to get to the center balance point:
I just read up a little again and saw this:I tried to explain in the rest of the post what I meant in that I cannot maintain the same attitudes
Love - a desire to be and act intimate to a certain degree
Attitude - your protection of your reaction to the situation
Actions - what you do/say based on boundaries you have drawn or not drawn. No boundaries, wide open expression of yourself and they of themselves. Tight boundaries - relevant expression based on the boundary.
You can love someone and eject them from your life. Take away the expression of that love as being friendly and nice. You don't act mean, you just don't act friendly.
You can also dislike someone and keep them in your life.
The conundrum is this - they act disrespectful at one time, then act nice and respectful, then act disrespectful, etc... do you enforce the boundary each time they are being disrespectful or do you freeze all friend type interactions until they stop the pattern? I would imagine it depends on what the person is willing to take and deal with.
In the case of an A, that's an ongoing act of disrespect so it's more cut and dry.
My take on Coach’s “Go by your Values and Beliefs, not Your Feelings” philosophy:
I'm more confused now than ever before.
Feelings - I'm pissed off, hurt and confused because my W is having an affair. I'm so angry I could really lash into her and beat her down mentally/emotionally. I'm gonna make her feel so guilty and giver her a lashing.
Values - I will control my feelings and not act out accordingly. My feelings change. Sometimes I'm angry, sometimes I'm not (at her) When I act out it's only on the feelings I have RIGHT NOW. My values say I will draw a boundary due to her behavior to protect my self respect (my family, whatever it is). I draw the boundary and I enforce it.
Do I want my feelings to control me (which are often at the mercy of others' behavior, in effect, allowing them to control us; or do I want to chose my reaction?) The ultimate goal is to be unflappable - totally emotionally unaffected by someone else's behavior.
I followed up an hour later on my last text about the chicken.(Did somebody say chicken?)
Wanted to make sure she was going to cook it or else I'll make alternate plan.
Sent: Did you get my last text about the chicken?
W:Yes-Prepping it now.
Me (10 min later) - Thanks <wife's name>
W: (25 min later) - Your welcome
Is she DB'ing me?? lol.
Just an observation, but the alternate plan also could have been make sure you have some cash and the menu of a place that delivers or have a frozen pizza in your freezer.
I think you handled it well though and agree with CD's take on it.
Thanks MM. There's always something to make in the house. Even order pizza or chinese. We ended up taking the chicken over to my brother's house and they made pizza so we all ended up eating together.
My S told me tonight he wants to spend as much time with his mom and me. It's funny at their ages how they seem to switch things around based on which direction the wind is blowing.
When I went home to swap with my W my D was very upset. Kept saying and crying she wanted to stay with her mom. She even told me she hates me, I laughed and told her that's ok. She was fine after about 10 minutes or so. They had just spent the past week with my W.
My D made another comment tonight. We were talking about how we used to something together around the house and she said, "Can we go back to that?" I asked, "Back to what?" "Back to when me, my brother, you and mommy used to do things all together." I told her I know honey. It's ok. (Distraction works great)
I do feel bad for her. These are things and questions she has to deal with at 4. She's not even supposed to be even thinking about this stuff or having the emotional turmoil my kids have at their age. It sucks and it breaks my heart.
Anyway, they're both asleep upstairs and I'm taking care of household stuff.
Steady, getting caught up here. You sound like me in some ways: I do great with the big picture stuff but I always question the little interactions/niceties of what I should be doing on a day to day basis. On one hand, it's nice when things are pleasant. On the other hand, you don't want to be too friendly and make the WS comfortable with their bad behavior. While knowing you're to be living life for yourself and kids, you always want to behave in ways to draw WS back. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here on a DBing forum! LOL
My sitch is different in that H and I are not separated, but it's still hard to discern at times what to do.
The chicken sounded fine to me!
When I went home to swap with my W my D was very upset. Kept saying and crying she wanted to stay with her mom. She even told me she hates me, I laughed and told her that's ok. She was fine after about 10 minutes or so.
Very well-handled, Steady. You'd be suprised at how many people give in to this, and then the kids ends up with no structure, wandering back and forth between the two marital homes like gypsies, with no set schedules. You used humor to diffuse the situation, and were strong and leading, and that's the kind of structure and love that your kids need from you thru this.
Well done.
Puppy
I stayed home with both my kids on Tuesday. We hung out and played all day. When it came close to the time my W was coming home to swap the kids my daughter started telling me she wanted to stay with me. She said, "I don't want to be with mommy. I want to stay with you daddy." I laughed and said, "You say that about me when you are with mommy. Once mommy comes and you play you'll have so much fun." She said, "Yeah, but if I'm not with you then I can't be thrown up in the air like you do."
In a way it made me happy because for the past few weeks she always asks to be with my W. Now she starting to do it the other way. I take it all with a grain of salt because she's only 4.
My S also told me the other day he wants to be with me. He also was telling me he wanted to stay with his mom and visit me over the past few weeks and now he's saying something different.
Kids flip flop like that, but the thing that concerns me is they shouldn't even have to be having these thoughts and feelings. It's part of the collateral damage that happens when there's a D.
So when I left Tue after she got there my D was clinging to me and wouldn't let go. She was crying and saying, "I want daddy." I left and went to work to make up some of my hours.
Yesterday (Wed) after work I stopped by the house to pick up my S. We split the kids every Wed - I get our S and she gets our D. When I got there my daughter wanted to play a little bit. She showed me the things she was building with legos and she wanted to finish the one she was building so she could show me.
When it was time for us to go I told me D, "Give me a big hug and a kiss." I get on my knees and she takes a running start and jumps into my arms and I roll back onto my back as if she knocked me down. She loves doing this. We did it a few times because she kept asking.
I got up to leave with my S and my D was clinging to me crying. She wouldn't let go. I had to pry her hands of my shirt and hand her to my W. She kept saying, "I want daddy.'
In the middle of this my W said something, and I didn't hear it. So I asked her what she said. She said, "We'll talk about it later. I just want to do something about this (indicating my daughter crying and clinging to me). She said, "I think if we just come in and grab stuff and leave right away this wont' happen." I said, "It happens then anyway. All the times we do that she does this. I think she just needs to get used to it."
This is the stuff my W doesn't want to deal with. I keep thinking to myself, WTF, didn't you know this was going to happen? Or is this part of the cr@p you conveniently leave out of your 'fantasy' world?
My S and I had fun last night. He just wanted to play a Star Wars game on the Xbox with me so we did that for quite some time. When I was putting him to bed he asked, "Are we going to be with you or mom on Christmas?" I told him, "Well you'll be with one of us on Christmas Eve and the other on Christmas Day." He said, "I just wanted to know where I needed to put my stocking. I want to be with mom Christmas Eve and you on Christmas Day. Why can't we all be together for Christmas?" I just told him I would talk to his mom about it all.
I dropped my S off this morning and went in and asked my W if she wanted me to make cereal for him. She said "No, I want to make this quick so D doesn't get upset."
As I was putting my S stuff down she told the kids, "We're going out today. I need to pick up a GPS." I said, "We already have one." She told me she couldn't find it and hasn't seen it since I went to Colorado with the kids. We walk into the dining room and there it is on top of the table with all the other junk piled up there.
Of course my mind goes to - she must be going on a trip. I wonder if she's going down to Washington DC to go visit her 'friend' K (the guy she went to HS with and has been in love with her the whole time - she's been spending a lot of time with him lately). Probably needs a GPS for that.
My stomach did a little flip and I thought about asking, "You going on a trip?" Of course I was a bit curious to KNOW, because after all, we love to know everything so we can somehow...what? control it...lol
I over-road my impulse to say anything and just left. When I got in the car I did my mantra - Ok, it may be that or it may not. It doesn't matter. Let her live her life and don't get mentally into it. It has nothing to do with you and it's her path to walk. I know it sticks you in the gut a little bit but it's ok. It's normal. If she's got a 'thing' with him it's what she needs to be doing. I wonder if there is a way to have the GPS keep a memory of where it's been? Oh that's stupid. Why would you want to do that? So I can know! What's the difference whether you know or not? Blah, blah, blah.
I keep pulling my mind away from her and back onto me and my life. It's a constant watching it drift to her, then I pull it back on me.
It only gets triggered now with events like this. The normal day to day stuff and I don't get tangled in the stinkin' thinkin'. But when something keys it off (like the GPS thing, or my kids telling me "Mommy's going to visit K for a few days by a lake) it starts to do it's stupid dance.
Don't get me wrong, it's not as pervasive or as persistent as it used to be but it's still a pain in the a$$.
Anyway, figured I'd put that 'internal workings of me' out there.
So I found this just now. Thought I'd post it here because it's relevant to what's on my mind right now. It's an excerpt from David Burns' Feeling Good Handbook. I have his book Feeling Good and read it a long time ago. It's based on Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) which is a great way to change your thinking and attitudes. If you're interested in CBT search out books by Dr. Albert Ellis. He's the pioneer and is excellent. He has some recordings which I have that are really good. Read Ellis' book "A Guide to Rational Living".
The Top 10 Types of “Stinkin’ Thinkin’”
By David Burns
One of the most common types of skills learned in psychotherapy today focuses on our thinking. Unbeknownst to many of us, we often engage in internal conversations with ourselves throughout the day. Unless we’re trained to examine these conversations, however, many of us don’t even realize we’re having them! For instance, imagine looking in the mirror at yourself. What’s the first thing you think when you look at yourself? That thought is a part of our internal conversation.
Having these kinds of conversations with yourself is perfectly normal and in fact, everybody does it. Where we mess up in our lives is when we let these conversations take on a life of their own. If we answer ourselves in the above example with something like, “I’m fat and ugly and nobody loves me,” that’s an example of “stinkin’ thinkin’.” Our thoughts have taken on an unhealthy attitude, one that is working against us instead of for us. Psychologists would call these thoughts “irrational,” because they have little or no basis in reality. For instance, the reality is that most everyone is loved by someone (even if they’re no longer with us), and that a lot of our beauty springs from inside us — our personality.
It is exactly these kinds of thoughts that you can learn to identify as you go through your day. Often times it will be helpful to keep a little journal of the thoughts, writing down the day and time you had it, the thought itself, and the type of irrational thought — or stinkin’ thinkin’ — from the list below. As you learn to better identify them, you can then learn how to start answering them back with rational arguments. In this manner, you can work to turn your internal conversation back to being a positive in your life, instead of a running negative commentary.
1. All-or-nothing thinking – You see things in black-or-white categories. If a situation falls short of perfect, you see it as a total failure. When a young woman on a diet ate a spoonful of ice cream, she told herself, “I’ve blown my diet completely.” This thought upset her so much that she gobbled down an entire quart of ice cream.
2. Overgeneralization – You see a single negative event, such as a romantic rejection or a career reversal, as a never-ending pattern of defeat by using words such as “always” or “never” when you think about it. A depressed salesman became terribly upset when he noticed bird dung on the window of his car. He told himself, “Just my luck! Birds are always crapping on my car!”
3. Mental Filter – You pick out a single negative detail and dwell on it exclusively, so that your vision of reality becomes darkened, like the drop of ink that discolors a beaker of water. Example: You receive many positive comments about your presentation to a group of associates at work, but one of them says something mildly critical. You obsess about his reaction for days and ignore all the positive feedback.
4. Discounting the positive – You reject positive experiences by insisting that they “don’t count.” If you do a good job, you may tell yourself that it wasn’t good enough or that anyone could have done as well. Discounting the positives takes the joy out of life and makes you feel inadequate and unrewarded.
5. Jumping to conclusions – You interpret things negatively when there are no facts to support your conclusion.
Mind Reading : Without checking it out, you arbitrarily conclude that someone is reacting negatively to you.
Fortune-telling : You predict that things will turn out badly. Before a test you may tell yourself, “I’m really going to blow it. What if I flunk?” If you’re depressed you may tell yourself, “I’ll never get better.”
6. Magnification – You exaggerate the importance of your problems and shortcomings, or you minimize the importance of your desirable qualities. This is also called the “binocular trick.”
7. Emotional Reasoning – You assume that your negative emotions necessarily reflect the way things really are: “I feel terrified about going on airplanes. It must be very dangerous to fly.” Or, “I feel guilty. I must be a rotten person.” Or, “I feel angry. This proves that I’m being treated unfairly.” Or, “I feel so inferior. This means I’m a second rate person.” Or, “I feel hopeless. I must really be hopeless.”
8. “Should” statements – You tell yourself that things should be the way you hoped or expected them to be. After playing a difficult piece on the piano, a gifted pianist told herself, “I shouldn’t have made so many mistakes.” This made her feel so disgusted that she quit practicing for several days. “Musts,” “oughts” and “have tos” are similar offenders.
“Should statements” that are directed against yourself lead to guilt and frustration. Should statements that are directed against other people or the world in general, lead to anger and frustration: “He shouldn’t be so stubborn and argumentative!”
Many people try to motivate themselves with shoulds and shouldn’ts, as if they were delinquents who had to be punished before they could be expected to do anything. “I shouldn’t eat that doughnut.” This usually doesn’t work because all these shoulds and musts make you feel rebellious and you get the urge to do just the opposite. Dr. Albert Ellis has called this ” must erbation.” I call it the “shouldy” approach to life.
9. Labeling – Labeling is an extreme form of all-or-nothing thinking. Instead of saying “I made a mistake,” you attach a negative label to yourself: “I’m a loser.” You might also label yourself “a fool” or “a failure” or “a jerk.” Labeling is quite irrational because you are not the same as what you do. Human beings exist, but “fools,” “losers” and “jerks” do not. These labels are just useless abstractions that lead to anger, anxiety, frustration and low self-esteem.
You may also label others. When someone does something that rubs you the wrong way, you may tell yourself: “He’s an S.O.B.” Then you feel that the problem is with that person’s “character” or “essence” instead of with their thinking or behavior. You see them as totally bad. This makes you feel hostile and hopeless about improving things and leaves very little room for constructive communication.
10. Personalization and Blame - Personalization comes when you hold yourself personally responsible for an event that isn’t entirely under your control. When a woman received a note that her child was having difficulty in school, she told herself, “This shows what a bad mother I am,” instead of trying to pinpoint the cause of the problem so that she could be helpful to her child. When another woman’s husband beat her, she told herself, “If only I was better in bed, he wouldn’t beat me.” Personalization leads to guilt, shame and feelings of inadequacy.
Some people do the opposite. They blame other people or their circumstances for their problems, and they overlook ways they might be contributing to the problem: “The reason my marriage is so lousy is because my spouse is totally unreasonable.” Blame usually doesn’t work very well because other people will resent being scapegoated and they will just toss the blame right back in your lap. It’s like the game of hot potato–no one wants to get stuck with it.
Parts of this article were exercepted from the book, “The Feeling Good Handbook” by David D. Burns, M.D. © 1989.
Yikes.
Thanks, Steady.
I see 'em all everyday.
More stuff for me to work on.
-CD
When I went home to swap with my W my D was very upset. Kept saying and crying she wanted to stay with her mom. She even told me she hates me, I laughed and told her that's ok. She was fine after about 10 minutes or so.
Very well-handled, Steady. You'd be suprised at how many people give in to this, and then the kids ends up with no structure, wandering back and forth between the two marital homes like gypsies, with no set schedules. You used humor to diffuse the situation, and were strong and leading, and that's the kind of structure and love that your kids need from you thru this.
Well done.
Puppy
Thanks Puppy. I know kids say all kinds of things depending on what crosses their minds. This is part of the collateral damage that needs to be handled in a D with kids involved.
When I brought this up to my W a year and a half ago - talking about the repercussions our kids will feel - she did the standard script - 'kids are resilient'.
I didn't say this, but yeah, they're resilient. They bound back. But they still have inside them all the emotional and mental cr@p they have to deal with. They're 4 and 7 and they're having to go through emotions and thinking they wouldn't normally have to go through in a 'normal' family life.
In my last few posts I talk about the phase they're in now - where it is starting to affect them in a way they need to verbalize their stuff about having parents who don't live together with them together. They both have been making comments about it so it's starting to do it's damage.
When my kids tell my W they want to be with her and visit me she tells them, "Well, I'm working on that." When they tell me they want to be with me I tell them, "Well mommy and daddy have to share you guys. It wouldn't be fair if I got you guys most of the time and mom only got you for just a little bit of time. Besides, you always have fun with mommy."
She's encouraging them wanting to be 'away' from me while I am encouraging them to be with both of us. Just tells you where her head is at.
Steady, getting caught up here. You sound like me in some ways: I do great with the big picture stuff but I always question the little interactions/niceties of what I should be doing on a day to day basis. On one hand, it's nice when things are pleasant. On the other hand, you don't want to be too friendly and make the WS comfortable with their bad behavior. While knowing you're to be living life for yourself and kids, you always want to behave in ways to draw WS back. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here on a DBing forum! LOL
My sitch is different in that H and I are not separated, but it's still hard to discern at times what to do.
The chicken sounded fine to me!
I'm right there with you Sunny. Some days I don't want to 'draw her back in' and other days I feel like I do. It's a tug of war sometimes. I question my motives when each one of them comes up.
Do I want a woman who can't look at herself and take responsibility for her part in all of this? A woman who only blames me? Someone who can lie and fabricate things in court papers? Someone who came after me twice trying to get an Order of Protection to take me away from my kids and my home?
But I also remember a time when we were close and in love. A time when we had a lot of fun, enjoyed each others company, actually showed our insides to each other. That time isn't now and is just a memory. That becomes the conundrum. The way the WS is now and the way they were and the vision of the way the things could be. The irony of it is we get into a position where we have the opportunity to actually build a healthy relationship which could surpass anything we ever dreamed of. But again, both people have to show up to the field.
I had my Psychiatrist tell me the other day - "I know you did everything you could possibly do to save your marriage and keep your family together. You should know that too. You're a great example of someone who takes responsibility and goes out and makes the changes that need to be made." I know this is true.
She would have to jump through so many hoops to win me back I just could never see it happening.
In the meantime I keep pushing forward, improving myself, my life and my ability to parent my kids.
Yikes.
Thanks, Steady.
I see 'em all everyday.
More stuff for me to work on.
-CD
Nah, not more stuff. It's all stuff you're already working on.
I put this on Sunn's thread but want you to have it on your's too.
I don't know what exactly you are doing right now but your posts and insights are showing exponential growth.
HUGE difference in the last couple of weeks.
I'd love to get there soon.
I feel a little growth but nothing like what I've seen from you.
YOU are REALLY MOVING, NOW!!!
I am enjoying reading your posts today, Steady. Lots to think about and lots to admire. You seem to have conquered acting on that gut feeling and recognizing when it is occurring.
Just wondering if you ever considered swapping the Wednesday nights to alternate so every other Wed. you have just your daughter and W has your son? Does your D get any one on one time with her daddy? I'm 32 and still call my dad to talk about my own life a few times a week so I do think a father/daughter bond is very important.
CD these posts are coming up because I'm looping through it all again. For quite time I've been traveling along without those thoughts and feeling popping so far up into my consciousness.
I just got the court transcript yesterday of what was said when my W went to court in June to try and secure the Protection Order.(just her and the judge) Of course there were lies, fabrications and manipulations in there. She's telling the judge I'm not 'stable'...lol. But that kicks off all the stuff she's said and done in the past 2 1/2 years. So the loop starts up again and I have to work my way out of it.
They don't come as often, they don't last as long, and they don't wield the same intensity they used to.
It gets easier as time passes and I get stronger and the sitch gets weaker.
If you look closely, those posts are me working my way out of the loop, but also putting it out there for others who are in the same position.
I could have just as easily wrote every one of those posts to myself. But what fun would it be if you didn't get to play the ATC once in a while...sitting alone in that plane gets very lonely.
Just wondering if you ever considered swapping the Wednesday nights to alternate so every other Wed. you have just your daughter and W has your son? Does your D get any one on one time with her daddy? I'm 32 and still call my dad to talk about my own life a few times a week so I do think a father/daughter bond is very important.
We've tried that a few times but each time they protest. I know one on one time with each of them is very important for their growth with my W and I. They are still getting used to this change - I'll address it again in the future.
Once again, the damage gets done by a family that splits apart. I don't care what anyone says about the resiliency of kids. For every study with one conclusion, you'll find another study with the opposite.
- Two kids one parent at a time. They lose the one on one which is very important for their growth
- Two kids doing homework/projects after school; one parent to help both of them while cooking, cleaning up, making lunches, prepping for the next day and finishing the responsibilities of this day
- Two kids one parent. One kid wants to do this, but the other one wants to do that.
I dare anyone to face me and tell me they don't lose out on things that can't be made up with 'resiliency'.
Since I don't have much to write, I think I'll just drop a post here from another thread.
Originally posted by Steady:
SO, I guess I'm back to asking myself this morning about the specifics. What are some practical ways that I can up the game in the 180s/GAL department? What are some ways that H would take notice and maybe bring back the attraction?
This is the problem - what if the person you want to be is not the kind of person he wants to be with? I proposed this question on another thread before. Do you stop improving yourself in order to keep your M together?
When people improve and grow, some people in their lives are naturally 'shed' like an old skin. When I quit drinking at 24, most of my friends slowly drifted away. We didn't have same things in common. I became a mirror of what they weren't doing for themselves.
Some guys really don't want an independent woman. They want a dysfunctional co-dependent which keeps them in their 'identity' and role. This is on a subconscious level. Who would answer yes, I want a co-dependent spouse? But there is cognitive dissonance that happens between what they say they want and what they really are attracted to.
When you are doing the things YOU want to do, when you are pursuing and doing the things which make you happy; when you are building the life which makes you feel good and content, then you will be attractive. But, and here's the caveat, you will be attractive to a partner who wants a confident, happy, independent woman. Is that man your H? I have no idea.
I know in my past I've always been attracted to 'broken' women. It's easy for me to look back and see my pattern. I am attracted to them and they trigger my issue - and her issues and mine usually are akin to throwing gasoline on a fire.
As I get healthier I find my attraction to that type of woman waning. I've met women who I normally would have been attracted to in the past and feel no attraction. This is a strong indicator to me that I'm heading in the right direction.
I think a majority of any desire I have to be with my W stems from a few things I can see. I'm sure there are others.
- Comfort; I was with her for over 10 years so it's a known.
- Keeping my M and family together as it being the principal rather than the functionality
- My desire to not want her to be with someone else
- To keep my children from having to experience the turmoil and fallout caused by a divorce
- To not have to 'start all over again'
- Financial security. We had just arrived at a combined income which would have afforded us a better lifestyle than we had known in the past
- Family; there is all kinds of collateral damage ocurring to both our extended families; be are both alienated from the others' family
- The damn house. We have a nice house in a great neighborhood
- Switching around everything we had worked towards.
- <others>
Now when I look at my list, the thing that's missing is this - an overwhelming attraction and desire to be with HER. It's been worn out to the point where it is nothing but a small ember sitting in the corner of a room somewhere inside me.
I don't believe in 'falling out of love'. I'm leaning more toward the misconception of attraction being the 'in love' experience. It's not love which is missing, it's attraction.
I especially love what Allen wrote above:
Romantic love really is nothing more than a mathematical equation. Spend enough time with someone meeting intimate needs of conversation, affection, admiration, and play time - and you will fall in love with that person. Assuming of course that they are not doing things you find offensive or objectionable at the same time.
- Penny TupyOnce mentioned this to my W, how love is created and not 'just magically there' and she basically mocked me. I asked her, when we first met were we in love? No. It was built.
I had court this morning at 9:30. I was sitting there with my L and didn't see my W or her L. I asked my L if he had seen them. He told me he didn't. After about an hour or so (we were #22 on the docket - last case) he got up and called her L. He showed up about 15 min later. Apparently he had forgotten about the court appointment.
We got in front of the judge and the judge said, "Isn't this the first show?" My L said yes. Then the judge said, "It looks like we're missing someone." Her L proceeded to tell the judge some story about his assistant being out and her forgetting to call my W to tell her about the hearing. It was just a Preliminary Conference - basically a formality for setting up dates when things have to happen, any motions, etc...
It didn't take long at all. My L told the judge about the custody rotation we're doing and asked if he could make an order for the arrangement to stay the way it is right now. My W's L said my W isn't in agreement with the arrangement so the judge set a date for next Tue for us all to come back. But the judge did say the current arrangement is to continue until then.
Now I have to do some legwork to put together some counters to arguments I think she may try to present for not continuing the current custody arrangement. Always something to do.
After the court stuff I picked up my kids at my brother's house and took them home. My SIL watched them for me while I was at court because I had them until 4:00 today.
At 3:30 my W showed up at the house to swap. When she came in I asked her how her trip went. She looked at me with these deer in the headlights look and said, "I had a good weekend if that's what you're asking." I said, "I figured you went on a trip because you said you needed the GPS last week."
I should have kept my mouth shut. But it just came out. Still learning.
But tonight I took a break from it all. Usually I would have gone into work after she took the kids but I decided to go to my brother's (that's where I stay when she has the kids) and just relax.
I went to the Super Market to pick up some groceries we needed at the house. I sent a text to my W to let her know I was picking up some things and I'd drop them off on the porch of our house. I asked her if she needed anything.
She sent a text back asking if I could get seltzer for her. I told her no problem. I got the stuff and dropped it off at the house. Sent her a text - "Porch. Seltzers by the garage door." A little while later she sent me a thank you text.
I went to my brother's house and relaxed. I watched a really good movie - "An Unfinished Life" with Robert Redford, Morgan Freeman, Jennifer Lopez and the cutest little girl. (Not as cute as my daughter
)
I thought it was an excellent movie.
I'll leave you with this:
At the very end of the movie Morgan Freeman was talking about a dream he had where he was flying. He said, "I got so high I could see where the blue turns to black. From up there you could see all there is. And it looked like...there was a reason for everything.
One other thing. My S called me this evening looking for his DSi. I went out and checked my car while he was on the phone. After a little while he told me my W had just found it in the house.
When he was getting off I told him I loved him and I'd see him tomorrow. He said, "Dad, I want to spend the weekend with you and the rest of the week." Then I heard my daughter get on really quick and say the same thing. Then I could hear my S telling me it was his sister who just said that one. I laughed and we got off the phone.
Hey Steady.
Sorry to hear about the court BS.
But I'm sure it was heartwarming to hear such great things from your kids.
That reminds me to go see my D2 tomorrow.
I suddenlt need "a fix"
Carpe Diem
‘Ask not - we cannot know - what end the gods have set for you, for me; nor attempt the Babylonian reckonings Leuconoë. How much better to endure whatever comes, whether Jupiter grants us additional winters or whether this is our last, which now wears out the Tuscan Sea upon the barrier of the cliffs!
Be wise, strain the wine; and since life is brief, prune back far-reaching hopes! Even while we speak, envious time has passed: pluck the day, putting as little trust as possible in tomorrow!.’
— Quintus Horatius Flaccus (Horace) 68BC — Ode I-XI, Carpe Diem.
Steady that is f@cking awesome!
Well it's been a few weeks, so on queue, my W decided to stir up more drama.
I got a text at 3:03 this afternoon - she wrote, "I'm going to be staying in the house tonight." I sent a text back (3:06) - "Why is that?" After about 20 min I sent a follow up at 3:15- "I would like an answer please."
At 3:18 she sent an answer. "I will be staying @ the house every day with the exception of every other weekend."
At 3:21 I sent - "Actually you can't do that. The judge said we are to continue w the current schedule."
So I got home and walked in. She was there with the kids. We said hello then I asked her if she got the text. She said yeah. I said we were told on Monday to keep everything the same. She said she had a call in to her lawyer and hadn't heard back from him. I told her I didn't want her there. She said, "I don't want you here either." (in a not so nice tone)
I was keeping myself together. I said the judge told us on Monday we were to keep the schedule the same. She said she spoke to her lawyer and he told her what was said on Monday. She said she had every right to do what she's doing. Well, according to the paralegals.
Ok I started typing this post about an hour ago. Had about an hour conversation with my W where some things were put out there. It was actually pretty good. I'm too tired to update the rest of the evening and the conversation, but I'll update when I have some time.
curious minds want to know
Not to joke with the situation but Steady is playing a quick game of "How to Keep Idiots in Supsense"
And he's winning!
I have to keep this brief right now because I am really drained and tired - and basically sick of having to deal with this stuff and have it be a constant drag on my life and my being.
My W moved back into the house on Tue. It threw the whole family out of balance and the kids were confused as ever. When I got home my D told me, "Daddy, the four of us are going to be in the house now. Mom said she wasn't going to leave us anymore and she's always going to be with us now."
I immediately knew my W had said something she wouldn't be able to follow through on. I told my W I didn't want her there and she retorted, "Well, I don't want you here either!" (in a not so pleasant tone) I said wait a minute. I'm not being a d!ck here. I think this is totally unhealthy for the kids and it throws everything out of whack. The judge told us on Monday we were to keep the custody schedule the same as it's been. Our kids are going to be completely thrown off by this."
She said, "Well I have every right to do what I'm doing. According to the paralegals. I talked to my L and he told me what went on in court on Mon. I have a call into my L now and haven't heard back from him."
Then she proceeded to say, "They've been begging me to do this - to be with them all the time." I said, "Well they say the same stuff to me. Our D has been asking now for a few weeks why the four of us can't be together. Of course there's going to be confusion and things said by them. This situation is going to have an affect on them."
So the rest of the evening was full of tension. It threw everything out of balance.
We ended up talking for about an hour after the kids went to bed and that went good. Some things were aired out and I was brutally honest about what I though and felt about some of the things we talked about. I'll give more detail about it later on.
She managed to take even that and turned it into something ugly and tried to make me look a fool with an email she sent me the next day. Details will follow when I'm actually in the mood to write it down.
Long story short - she came back home last night around 6pm and took my D to her mom's house. My S stayed with me like we have been doing every Wed. Of course the kids were upset because now it all got changed up again and was in direct opposition to what she was telling them the day before.
Apparently she met with her L and he told her she had to keep to the schedule.
The worst part of it - I heard my W upstairs telling my S, "Well my friend (referring to her L) made a mistake. He felt really bad about it. He said something he shouldn't have said. They asked a question and he said no, then it was asked again and he said yes and he shouldn't have."
I went upstairs and said, "What are you saying to our kids?" She said, "I'm just explaining to them what happened. I have to explain this to them."
I said, "I'm talking about explaining something to them right now. You are talking to them about something they shouldn't even be hearing or be involved in."
Keep in mind, a few weeks ago when I was putting my D to bed she said to me, "Daddy, mom said she's working on having us with her and then visiting you like we visit grandma - you know, a few times a week."
So my W has been telling them her and her friend (L) have been working on getting them more time with her. I am beside myself that she would even say anything like this to our kids. When they say stuff like that to me - where they say they want to spend a lot of time with me and not their mom I always encourage them to change their thinking. I'll remind them when they're with her they feel that way about her, and when they're with me they feel that way about me. I tell them mom loves them and loves being with them and both of us should share and have time with them.
She's busy telling them they'll spend more time with her and I'm busy telling them it's fair for them to be with both of us.
Anyway, I'm drained, tired, worn out.
The saddest part for me, besides the kids going through this, is even after all of this; even after her dumping all over me for the past 3 years; even after the two attempts at getting a restraining order; after calling the police over an argument; after her repeated attempts to control the kids and take them away from me; after the lies, fabrications, manipulations, etc...
after all of that....
I still felt bad for my W having to go through what she went through yesterday.
Not feeling so bad for her anymore...lmao.
Doubt thou, the stars ...
by William Shakespeare (1564-1616)
Doubt thou, the Starres are fire,
Doubt, that the Sunne doth moue:
Doubt Truth to be a Lier,
But neuer Doubt, I loue.
from Hamlet Act 2 scene 2, as it appears in the 1623 First Folio. In modern form:
Doubt thou the stars are fire,
Doubt that the sun doth move,
Doubt truth to be a liar,
But never doubt I love.
(Arden Shakespeare, 1982)
I have court tomorrow regarding the divorce. My W is going to come out hard trying to get the current custody schedule changed. I've prepared as best I can. I'll update later.
Good luck with the law, Steady.
Two hours in the courtroom waiting, 5 minutes before the Judge. $500 to my lawyer and another court date on Oct 12. lol
My W's lawyer entered a motion and my lawyer just got it while we were standing there. We have 3 weeks to respond to it. I haven't seen it yet and my lawyer obviously didn't get a chance to read it.
He said he glanced over it quickly and she's basically asking for an Order of Protection...I said, "Are you kidding me?" "He said it won't look good for her in the eyes of the court."
She is really trying to get custody of the kids. I'll probably get a copy of the motion tomorrow so it will be interesting to read what it says.
She just dropped her attempt at an OP in family court two weeks ago. This is getting ridiculous. I imagine she's looking to take control of the house and the kids and get me to give her my money. It's really all she's been trying to do for the past year and a half.
I'm tired and worn out. Didn't sleep a wink last night but felt fine this morning. I put together a whole package for my lawyer. I wrote down all of her objections about the current schedule and did point by point rebuttals to them. Made a copy of my S's progress report and report card from last year and noted how the teaching assistant, my S's psychiatrist and his therapist has said he's doing well. Even cut down his meds a lot.
So the saga continues.
OM confirmed.
Found an email with legal advice. First line, "You don't know how badly I wanted to text you but I figured this would be safer". Third line in - "I love you so much that watching you go through this is hurtful." (using hurtful that way is pretty stupid - he wants to see hurtful? lol. He'll get plenty of that from her)
Email references himself to be a lawyer.
Put 2 and 2 together and it's who I thought it might be. A guy she went to HS with. He chased her around then and she had told me he was always in love with her. They stayed in touch during our marriage and she used to make fun of the emails he would send once in a while. I believe she used to refer to him as a dork. Always told me he had 'no shot'.
I'm about 99.9% sure I've tagged the right person. The email was sent from one of her accounts to another one of her accounts so it only had her name in the to and from spots. It also didn't have any salutation.
Deeper investigation has begun. Adultery isn't a big thing as far as a D is concerned. But, having a paramour and bringing the kids around them is frowned upon by the courts and psychologists that do the analysis.
It stung a bit when I saw that email (was in a box she left at the house) and was a bit sad. Although it did may things make more sense and it was something I've had a gut feeling about for a while now.
I need more concrete evidence to present to the court. She has brought our children around him about 3 times or so, and the last time was a 4 day overnight at his parents' house with his parents, sister, and sister's D there. She also went by herself to meet him about 4 hours drive on the 4th of July weekend when I had my kids in Colorado. They actually are the ones who told me she was going to meet him. How sad is she?
I read the motion her lawyer put in yesterday. She's basically looking for an order of protection for me to stay away from the house, her to take full custody of our children, me to pay child support and maintenance to her. All the cr@p in there is the same BS she put in the two OP's she tried to get as well as the D papers.
She just dropped an attempt at the OP two weeks ago and has now sought it again in D court. My lawyer commented yesterday it won't sit well with the court. I hope he's right.
I keep telling myself the puzzle will fit together and all of this will make sense.
It's what I've always believed and what I've always experienced. It's just hard sometimes to find comfort in it when I'm right in the dead middle of it.
And to quote the signature of one of the many people I have deep respect for on these boards - Coach
"Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be."
I will prevail in the end. I have an undying faith truth will stand above all else. I've gone all in on this philosophy for many, many years and so far it has not steered me to a place I wasn't supposed to be.
Hey, Steady.
I'm very sorry to hear the news.
You did have this feeling for a while now so I understand there is more sting than surprise. And sting is an underststement.
Your head and heart are in the right place based on what I know of you.
PLEASE watch for anger to be closer to the surface than before.
I have complete confidence that you will handle this well and you and the kids will get throuh this.
YOU are the rock in this this scenario.
Put 2 and 2 together and it's who I thought it might be. A guy she went to HS with. He chased her around then and she had told me he was always in love with her. They stayed in touch during our marriage and she used to make fun of the emails he would send once in a while. I believe she used to refer to him as a dork. Always told me he had 'no shot'.
So what did we learn from this before you are ready to move forward?
Ex-boyfriends/ex-husbands, etc contacting your wife is NOT good. Why did she let this continue, why did you not speak up?
You have discovered a new boundary that is important in a Marriage if you want to stay married.
See how much smarter you are going to be after going through all of this?
Put 2 and 2 together and it's who I thought it might be. A guy she went to HS with. He chased her around then and she had told me he was always in love with her. They stayed in touch during our marriage and she used to make fun of the emails he would send once in a while. I believe she used to refer to him as a dork. Always told me he had 'no shot'.
So what did we learn from this before you are ready to move forward?
Ex-boyfriends/ex-husbands, etc contacting your wife is NOT good. Why did she let this continue, why did you not speak up?
You have discovered a new boundary that is important in a Marriage if you want to stay married.
See how much smarter you are going to be after going through all of this?
Hah! I've said the same thing to my wife throughout our marriage and she's always said it's because I'm insecure and jealous. She thinks there's nothing wrong with men and women having close friendships...
OM confirmed.
It stung a bit when I saw that email (was in a box she left at the house) and was a bit sad. Although it did may things make more sense and it was something I've had a gut feeling about for a while now.
I've learned a valuable lesson from my sitch and I will NEVER take it for granted again. YOUR GUT IS NEVER WRONG.
It does make things clearer and as much as it hurts, you know you're really not crazy/paranoid/jealous. That's a positive.
Hang in there Friend
CD - I actually feel pretty good. It hasn't really done much internal damage. I've been going through my sitch for two and half years now and have had plenty of time to detach. I also knew she would eventually be with someone and even had a sense she already was. So all of that dampened the impact of it.
TimeHeals - to be honest, it didn't bother me at all. She would show me the emails and they were harmless stuff about his life and stuff that was going on. She even said a number of times, 'He has no shot', and even called him a dork many times to me. She would also make fun of his long emails and how he would complain about all this stuff.
Live and learn.
Pinhead - the thing is this - I wasn't insecure and jealous and never was bothered by it at all. I'm not sure when it started up but my feeling (gut) is as she was going through all of this he provided the 'emotional' support she was seeking in her victim role. We all know about EA's.
FaithnAK - yes. The gut was there but I could not find any solid evidence. I looked.
In my mind I stopped wondering because it doesn't change anything. The only thing it will change at this point is how she will look in the eyes of the court and the psychologist due to the fact she has brought our children around him. I never imagined she would do that since we had even talked about that a few months after she dropped the D bomb. I assumed she was smarter than she really is.
I am attempting to collect more evidence so I can give it to my lawyer.
A bit tired today. I'm burning the candle from both ends and it's wearing me out. I worked 9 to 9 yesterday to make up hours and didn't get to sleep till late.
On my way to work I saw I had a voice mail on my phone. It was my son. He said, "Hi Dad, I was wondering if you could use your work hours to stay with us for about half of the day. Ok? Goodbye. Give me a call when you finish."
My W has to work today and the kids have no school so her mom is watching them. It was a nice message to get from him. Especially since my W is claiming they are begging her to be with her all the time and just 'visit' me.
Great message, Steady.
The truth always finds it's way out.
'He has no shot', and even called him a dork many times to me. She would also make fun of his long emails and how he would complain about all this stuff.
Steady you are right.
It is easier for them to go down the ladder so to speak and be with someone who mirrors their own dysfunctional emotional state.
Expectations of them are certainly much lower.
To let yourself be damaged by that is wasted energy.
Just see it for what it is.
More evidence of the crisis she is in.
Thanks Gritter. Needed to read those things you wrote. Over the past few days I have, for some reason, not by my intention, began seeing it as her crisis.
I've talked to her in the past about the cycles we run through. We repeat them over and over until we get it right and learn what we're supposed to learn.
Her current R reflects almost exactly how her and I hooked up. I was living in VA as an instructor in a Jiu Jitsu/Adult self improvement school. My instructor, lets call him 'nut', bought a house with 52 acres and we built a school in his basement.
One of the instructors stayed in NY with a school. That instructor, lets call him 'vin', met my W and started dating her. The two of them eventually moved down to VA. Nut manipulated them out of their R. Nut and my W started spending a lot of time together. They did a lot of work together with our clients - energy healing type work. Nut wasn't shy about talking about how much he adored my W. Nut was married to a really nice woman who was also an instructor.
After a year of this everything started to get really crazy there. I was looking for an exit. My W was stressing and one day pursued me. We started seeing each other in secret. Sneaking around, etc...
Eventually we left and moved to the coast of VA.
Here she is under similar stressful circumstances, hooking up with someone who was a friend, (her and I were friends down in VA), he's providing E support, they're sneaking around and hiding their R, he's definitely someone she can push around and walk on, etc...
It's basically mirroring how her and I got together. Eerily similar.
I find I can see it more for what it is than what it means to me. It actually hasn't had that big of an impact on me. I think it's because of how long my sitch has been going on.
About a year or so ago I told her one day she would be doing the dishes, hear a song, looking out the window, or some other simple or innocent thing, and suddenly she would wake up and wonder what the hell she did.She may, may not. I used to hope for that day but I don't anymore. At the time it seemed like it would be nice vindication, but I don't need that validation like I did back then. I'm in a much healthier spot in reference to my own self worth/esteem. I have gotten to a point where I'm pretty solid in self-validation and don't need it from an outside source. There's still some residual in me and I'm not sure I could ever get it all out.
But I feel solid. I like who I am. I like who I have become. I like the vision of who I am still turning into.
I told her one day she would be doing the dishes, hear a song, looking out the window, or some other simple or innocent thing, and suddenly she would wake up and wonder what the hell she did.She may, may not. I used to hope for that day but I don't anymore. At the time it seemed like it would be nice vindication, but I don't need that validation like I did back then. I'm in a much healthier spot in reference to my own self worth/esteem. I have gotten to a point where I'm pretty solid in self-validation and don't need it from an outside source.
But I feel solid. I like who I am. I like who I have become. I like the vision of who I am still turning into.
Hey Steady-
I trust it felt as good to write this as it did for me to read it.
I've talked to her in the past about the cycles we run through. We repeat them over and over until we get it right and learn what we're supposed to learn.
I've had similar conversations.
I'm hoping that this time I'm learning.
Irecognize the same problems I have had; see the pattern. The difference is THIS time I am going to do more than identify them. I am going to eradicate them as much as I can.
There's still some residual in me and I'm not sure I could ever get it all out.
Otherwise you'd be perfect and always do things "right". And we know what that means and where it gets us, right?
I just had an interesting thought about 180's. I think most people approach them from the wrong direction - as a way to somehow manipulate their spouse to notice or become re-interested in them.
I see 180's as a way to restore balance internally to ourselves and also to the way we function and behave in relationships.
Obviously, if you find yourself here, you're relationship is out of balance. The way I see it there is no 'relationship' entity, but rather two individuals coming together.
The only way to improve a relationship is by improving the way each individual thinks, behaves, etc.. Usually both people are out of balance to some degree when a R gets into a crisis state.
180's are a way to bring us into balance. Since we are the only person we can do anything about as far as changing we work on ourselves. In doing so we hope the healthy and functional changes have a positive effect on our relationship and our spouse.
If you work too many hours a 180 would be to spend more time at home. If we are too aloof, a 180 would be to be more engaging with our spouse. If we are smothering giving our spouse space is a 180.
GAL'ing is a positive change in relation to the fact that both individuals need to have a life outside of their R in order to have a healthy R. Having a life independent of our spouse has a number of positive effects - not the least of which is something else to talk about other than the day to day family/children stuff which can get very boring and monotonous over time.
(I know the post is disjointed - just capturing thoughts as they come)
I think the problem is most people look at 180's as a way to 'get what they want' - a re-commitment to reconcile. This is a wrong approach because it is based on control and manipulation - something I believe is ultimately impossible to succeed at as I've stated in many of my posts here on the boards.
Like many here have said - the best way to save your M is to save yourself. We do this by restoring balance in ourselves and in our own lives with the hope it has a positive effect on the M and our spouse.
I told her one day she would be doing the dishes, hear a song, looking out the window, or some other simple or innocent thing, and suddenly she would wake up and wonder what the hell she did.She may, may not. I used to hope for that day but I don't anymore. At the time it seemed like it would be nice vindication, but I don't need that validation like I did back then. I'm in a much healthier spot in reference to my own self worth/esteem. I have gotten to a point where I'm pretty solid in self-validation and don't need it from an outside source.
But I feel solid. I like who I am. I like who I have become. I like the vision of who I am still turning into.
Hey Steady-
I trust it felt as good to write this as it did for me to read it.
It feels good to be this far into being self validating. I have more distance to travel but I feel I've passed a critical point in it.
I've talked to her in the past about the cycles we run through. We repeat them over and over until we get it right and learn what we're supposed to learn.
I've had similar conversations.
I'm hoping that this time I'm learning.
Irecognize the same problems I have had; see the pattern. The difference is THIS time I am going to do more than identify them. I am going to eradicate them as much as I can.
The funny thing is this - I've seen these patterns since I was 24. I eradicated a bunch of them in a lot of areas of my life but obviously missed many of them. Never pulled the root and only trimmed the branches.
There's still some residual in me and I'm not sure I could ever get it all out.
Otherwise you'd be perfect and always do things "right". And we know what that means and where it gets us, right?
Ah yes. Perfectionism. It's much more freeing not to be under it's thumb.
Steady
I agree with your post about 180's and GALing.
I have come to the same conclusion on how this plays out.
It is a process for the LBS.
We are motivated first by our desire to get our spouses back
The changes (real or not) are more tactical.
Only when we start to look inside do we find our own answers.
Our actions become a function of who we are and not a means to an end...
I had the kids tonight. After dinner we were playing and I get a text from my W.
Are the kids OK?
Now I'm sitting there thinking, of course they're ok. So I send a text back. They're fine. Did something happen?
She sends back - A friend of mind died today.
Me - I'm sorry to hear that.
Me - The kids are good. Playing. Getting ready to take showers.
About 15 minutes later she sends back: Thanks.
That's it. Kinda weird exchange by her. I just went about the night and got everything done and put the kids to bed.
Everything else was normal every day groundhog day stuff...
This is what the last post was supposed to look like:
I had the kids tonight. After dinner we were playing and I get a text from my W.
Are the kids OK?
Now I'm sitting there thinking, of course they're ok. So I send a text back. They're fine. Did something happen?
She sends back - A friend of mind died today.
Me - I'm sorry to hear that. (My first thought was to text back something like, Why are you telling me this? That's your personal life and has nothing to do with mine, or something similar to that. But I just can't be cruel - and that's a good thing)
Me - The kids are good. Playing. Getting ready to take showers.
About 15 minutes later she sends back: Thanks.
That's it. Kinda weird exchange by her. I thought about texting more, you know, Hope you're ok, etc... But I quickly got over it. The fact is I didn't feel like texting anything else. She has her support group and her OM. Not even sure why she would even tell me. I know I wouldn't if it was me. If she was looking for sympathy or something she was turning to the wrong person.
I just don't have it in me. She managed to crush all of it by her behavior this past 2 and a half years. Just blank...nothing there to offer her. Maybe one day it will be different, but for now, it's an empty tank and I have no desire to even fake it.
The thought did cross my mind - Wonder if it was the OM. The kids have met him. My mind even jumped around to different thoughts but that only lasted a couple minutes then returned back to normal. It's nice when stuff doesn't get swirled in the head and bounce around for hours or even days. So much more peace in my life.
I just went about the night and got everything done and put the kids to bed.
Everything else was normal every day groundhog day stuff...
I'm not really sure I understand what a friend dying has to do with the well being of your kids unless death was rolling across your state and she wanted to warn you. Yeah, I'm being a smartass - clearly a sympathy text and you were very kind.
And I wouldn't think it were OM, could be one of his parents. Do you think she'd be able to function if it were him? I hardly think she'd lean on you.
(My first thought was to text back something like, Why are you telling me this? That's your personal life and has nothing to do with mine, or something similar to that. But I just can't be cruel - and that's a good thing)
I just don't have it in me. She managed to crush all of it by her behavior this past 2 and a half years. Just blank...nothing there to offer her. Maybe one day it will be different, but for now, it's an empty tank and I have no desire to even fake it.
Yes you do have it in you. I understand you can't be cruel, but you still stop long enough to consider feeding into her manipulations. Just asking you to consider what you really feel and don't try to talk yourself in or out of anything. Your actions can reflect what you want, but do try to sort out your feelings. Those 2 quotes are a bit opposite of each other.
WT
Hi Whiskey. I've missed you and have sometimes clicked on your name to see if you've posted recently.You are one of the people here who taught me a lot and whose steadiness I often clung to.
How is everything? Still in school?
I'm not really sure I understand what a friend dying has to do with the well being of your kids unless death was rolling across your state and she wanted to warn you. Yeah, I'm being a smartass - clearly a sympathy text and you were very kind.
And I wouldn't think it were OM, could be one of his parents. Do you think she'd be able to function if it were him? I hardly think she'd lean on you.
At first I thought maybe she had a dream that something happened to the kids while napping or something. I've seen that happen to people. But you're right, it has nothing to do with the kids. I read it as a sympathy text and I didn't bite into it. She didn't even have to text what she did. Could have just said, I was just wanting to check up on them or something to that effect. That's why I try to now wait before I answer any text messages unless they're straight yes/no or clear answers.
Oh, and I love the smartass comment...it made me laugh. I pictured a big dark cloud rolling over my town. lol I imagine she was drinking and got stupid thought running through the brain.
(My first thought was to text back something like, Why are you telling me this? That's your personal life and has nothing to do with mine, or something similar to that. But I just can't be cruel - and that's a good thing)
I just don't have it in me. She managed to crush all of it by her behavior this past 2 and a half years. Just blank...nothing there to offer her. Maybe one day it will be different, but for now, it's an empty tank and I have no desire to even fake it.
Yes you do have it in you. I understand you can't be cruel, but you still stop long enough to consider feeding into her manipulations.
You've always seemed to have the knack of tying my brain into a knot with a few sentences. Most of the time I'm not at a loss for following the bouncing balls but you always leave me a little room to have to stretch my brain.
I'll take a shot. I should have written I have it in me to be cruel but I
don't want to be like that concerning throwing a jab or two in there and being cruel probably didn't only because of the fact I'm in this court battle and doing something like that would reflect poorly on me. (I think that's more honest and genuine than the part with the strikethrough) That was my initial reaction. So that shows there's anger and a desire to hit back still sitting in me. I've acknowledged that and know in time that will continue to dissipate.
The comment 'I just don't have it in me' is referring to me being sympathetic or extending myself to her. That's the part I meant. Yeah, I did stop long enough to almost fall into the trap of manipulation. But the good thing about it is I stopped and saw it for what I thought it was...just a manipulation. The potential of getting pulled in is all about me and has nothing to do with her.
It's a pattern I've been working on pulling out of and I've come a long way in that regard. (No More Mister Nice Guy stuff)
Just asking you to consider what you really feel and don't try to talk yourself in or out of anything. Your actions can reflect what you want, but do try to sort out your feelings. Those 2 quotes are a bit opposite of each other.
Now this is the bounding ball I didn't follow.
I understand my first quote was the move toward falling into the manipulation, coming from anger/resentment due to her reprehensible behavior toward me. The second quote is my discovery of no desire to sympathize her empathize with her. I would have ignored the text completely if it weren't about my kids.
Please enlighten me a bit further. I always love your input.
Thanks for coming by WT. It's been a while and it's nice to see you.
Steady,
You're making me feel all warm and fuzzy.
They're fine. Did something happen?
This is where you took the bait. She asked about the kids. You know they are OK because they are with you. Then you asked her 'what's wrong'. You took the bait. Maybe a response to shut her down could be - "the kids are fine, we're having fun. Thanks for checking in".
Why did you ask if something happened? If it's her personal life, don't ask. You don't have it in you to continue the bullchit she's tossed you over the last 2 years, don't encourage it. If you were curious, then ask yourself, why am I curious about her life?
That's what I'm talking about. You would have saved a lot of brain power. If you think by encouraging further conversation you'll get more insight about what she's thinking, she's proved over and over again that she will blindside you and she will lie. So, really, outside of conversations about your kids, nothing else matters.
Does that make sense?
WT
Steady,
You're making me feel all warm and fuzzy.
They're fine. Did something happen?
This is where you took the bait. She asked about the kids. You know they are OK because they are with you. Then you asked her 'what's wrong'. You took the bait. Maybe a response to shut her down could be - "the kids are fine, we're having fun. Thanks for checking in".
Why did you ask if something happened? If it's her personal life, don't ask. You don't have it in you to continue the bullchit she's tossed you over the last 2 years, don't encourage it. If you were curious, then ask yourself, why am I curious about her life?
That's what I'm talking about. You would have saved a lot of brain power. If you think by encouraging further conversation you'll get more insight about what she's thinking, she's proved over and over again that she will blindside you and she will lie. So, really, outside of conversations about your kids, nothing else matters.
Does that make sense?
WT
Crystal clear. I guess I should have elaborated a bit more where the 'why did something happen?' question arose from. She's been bending over backwards trying to find, trap me in, fabricate, etc, reasons why I am an 'unfit' parent and the kids should be with her most of the time.
The first thing I did when I saw the text was to check the house and my cell phone. Sometimes the kids will get into some trouble with her when they're with her then they'll call me. So my first inclination was maybe one of them dialed her number. They were both playing so there wasn't anything that would have prompted them to call her. No phone calls out to her on either phone.
It was more of a curious about where she was coming from as far as the kids 'not being ok'. Maybe something in school. A phone call from a teacher, etc...
That's more of where the question generated from than a curiosity of her personal life. I've gotten to the point where the less I know the better. Of course my kids talk and that's how I found out she spent a few days with OM and got a hotel with him when I was in Colorado.
In her ignorance she talks to the kids about this stuff when it's unnecessary. In the end it becomes her undoing because it's all documented and I'll give it to the psychologist when I have to meet with him. We'll probably have to go for a follow up since she's making a big fuss about the kids not being ok with the custody schedule we're doing.
The only poking around I'm doing is to collect some evidence about OM strictly for the reason she has brought the kids around him a few times already. From a D standpoint or my own knowing it doesn't mean anything, but as far as her making poor decisions that affect the kids it has an impact.
Enough about me...
So what are you going to do with the warm and fuzzy feeling?
How are things with you? Still in school? Come on now, don't hold out - give me the scoop on what you've been up to and how you're doing besides stalking me from afar...lol.
Well you know that dynamic better than anyone else. I would hope if it were regarding an issue with the kids she would text 'we need to talk about the kids'. Her text sounded like a general well-being - which I understand in your situation could have been she dropped some sort of bomb on the little souls and wanted to know if they were dealing with it. I do understand why you're hesitant to let an out of the blue text like that go without questioning.
I'm a snooper, so you won't get beatings from me that you're investigating OM. I am very against dating while separated especially when there's children involved. Let me clarify that - involving the children with who their dating. But that's just me. My snooping gave me closure and allowed me to move forward quickly. To me, it's a reality check - even if the other person is batchitt crazy, doesn't matter. Actions speak louder than words.
I'm savoring the warm and fuzzy! I needed one today!
Still in school (switched schools actually and this one is way more cool), hopefully 1.5-2 more years and I'll be done. Old, but done. Just in time for a career change which I am really looking forward to.
Other than that, life is very, very good to me. No R's but right now I am grateful for the time to be present in my own life without distraction. Really, it is awesome.
I stalk you, so what? Someone has to keep an eye on you!
WT
WT I wanted to tell you about this. A while back you were talking about a book you were reading in school and you said this to me:
"Treat people the way they deserve to be treated"
It took a while to digest that in a way that made sense to me. It was in direct conflict with a paradigm I had been living. It literally took months before the light went off and the two were integrated into one. Once that happened it was an epiphany for me. The two quotes below explain how I got rid of the dissonance those two idea created.
I can't tell you what a profound impact that had on me. It literally changed me in a way that I can't say enough about. It gave me the freedom to set boundaries and start a life where I have discovered my freedom. I even quoted you a few times in response on some other people's threads.
Here's one of them:
You know I used to think like this - treat people the way I want to treat them regardless of their actions toward me. That usually meant treating them with kindness regardless of their behavior toward me.
Then one day Whiskey Tango posted on my thread - treat people the way they DESERVE to be treated. Hmmm...that was a new one for me. Wow! I can draw boundaries.
Do you need to be a di#k toward her? No.
Do you want to be her friend CD? I'm talking about now, not in some imagined future. Is she being rude to you? Filter out those couple 'warm friendly' communications and what are you left with? A giant pile of what?
Not texting her back about personal stuff is not rude and cold unless that's why you're doing it. If you're doing it to somehow 'get back at her' for what's she's done to you then you're wasting your breathe.
Now if you do it because you have drawn a BOUNDARY that says you will not allow people to treat you the way she is treating you, then what's wrong with that?
--------------------------------------------------
And again here: (I changed the color because I hate that it puts the quoted text in a different window that has to be scrolled in order to read - I like to print these threads out in hard copy)
Quote = Steady from CD's thread
A small 2x4 swing here. A few months ago, right after my W did some vindictive things, and basically told me she did not want me to text or email her anything except concerning the kids. Also after she said she was just going to lie to me about her personal life...lol.
I get a text one night -
W- "Great news. I got out of jury duty. They settled the case"
Me (after about 10 mins) - I think you meant to send that text to someone else.
W - No. Just wanted to let you know what was going on.
Me - Well that's your personal life. I don't need to know anything about your personal life.
Let me say this. If I allow her to behave the way she is toward me and I keep silent then I am silently telling her it's ok to treat me like a piece of sh*t and I'll just stand here with a smile on my face. You know, I did that throughout my marriage so I wouldn't make waves. I did for a year after the bomb...she totally lost respect for me because I didn't make boundaries and enforce them. More importantly I lost my self respect and my dignity. When I began standing up for myself that's when I got on my path to reclaim all of that and my power. I got respect back for myself.
If this person was my friend instead of my W would I tolerate this behavior? Nope. Eventually our spouses didn't and then they took that opportunity to snatch up the power, then use it against us. As time went on, she abused more and more of that power because I didn't say anything.
The viciousness grew. It's the same as a child. If you don't draw the boundary and enforce it, they will push you further and further.
CD, did you do exactly as you were feeling at the moment? Were you being authentically you or did you act in a way in which you hoped she would like you more?
Do you want this woman as a friend? I mean really? I know I don't want a friend who is treating me like my W is. She's lying and fabricating things about me. Then taking these lies and slandering me to other people.
I talked to my neighbor (female) today. My W hangs out with her also. Our kids play together all the time. A few weeks back I approached her and told her I know my W likes to build a team so I'm sure she talked to you about what's going on. I explained that the majority of what she is saying is not true and a the past stuff is a re-write of history. We had a long discussion about it.
Tonight when I dropped off her kids she asked me how Monday went. I told her. We got to talking more. She looked at me and said, "I'll tell you this. I've noticed what you've been talking to me about." I asked if she could be a little more specific. She said since we talked last and she's gotten to know my W even more, and she sees the behaviors I talked about.
It felt great. I was vindicated to some extent. I thanked her validating it.
I used to treat people the way I wanted to be treated. Some people will take that and walk all over you. That's what my W did and I just took it. Then Whiskey Tango posted on my thread and said, "You treat people the way they deserve to be treated."
I'll yield and give way. I'll still give people the benefit of the doubt. But now my foot goes down a lot earlier in the process. These are the boundaries.
Do I love my children. Unconditionally. And I tell them all the time - "I always love you. I may not like your behavior but I always love you and that will never change." I will not accept inappropriate or hurtful behavior just because I love them unconditionally. You can love your adult child unconditionally, and at the same time kick them out of the house. Or cut off support. These are boundaries drawn from unconditional love. They are not mutually exclusive.
I love them unconditionally, but I have boundaries. I can have those boundaries and still love them. I love my W. I hate her behavior. It's nauseating to me. I get nauseated in her presence. I love her - but I don't like her current personality.
Do I think you did the right thing CD. Yeah I do. Maybe she needs some shots across the bow.
If she was a total stranger, would you accept her behavior?
My friend J, who was a great friend of mine, used to call me up drunk and sit there and whine and complain about his life and his helplessness. I must have spent hundreds of hours on the phone repeating the same conversations, the same advice, the same understanding over and over.
Two months ago he called me again. He was drunk. I called him on it. He denied it. I gave him three more shots to come clean. I blasted him. He hung up on me.
I sent a text telling him I love him as my friend. I always will. I told him not to call me or contact me any more unless he gets sober. I told him when he's ready to stop behaving like a child and he wants help to improve and get his life straight to call me and I will be more than happy to help him.
Haven't heard from him since. This was a healthy boundary for me. He was sucking me dry.
CD only you can draw your own boundaries with your W. Do you want to have chit chat texts like the one she sent or not? I mean... Do YOU want it? Not what she wants or she needs or what will make you look more favorably to her.
What do you want? When you figure that out, then you can draw your boundaries around it. It will shift and change...then you merely redraw your boundaries.
One day I may want to be friends with my W. That day is not today. Her actions are way over the top destructive to me. It's a poison I don't need in my life. I don't want someone in my life who continues to treat me the way she is. Knowing that, I draw my boundary - She's not my friend. I won't talk to her as a friend. She's someone I co-parent with therefore I only communicate with her about the kids.
My boundary. It's healthy for me and I don't care what it does to her. She's an adult, she is responsible for her own reactions.
You can't live trying to protect people.--------------------------------------------------
I put them in there to show you how far I came just from that one statement you made. And it's still affecting me to this day! Creating even more changes and more freedom for me.
It's amazing how a single sentence you put out there, could have such a large impact on an individual's life.
So thanks WT.
You are the bomb, the sugarsmack, the
shiatz!
Those are solid warm and fuzzies.
Well you know that dynamic better than anyone else. I would hope if it were regarding an issue with the kids she would text 'we need to talk about the kids'. Her text sounded like a general well-being - which I understand in your situation could have been she dropped some sort of bomb on the little souls and wanted to know if they were dealing with it. I do understand why you're hesitant to let an out of the blue text like that go without questioning.
Well her constant fault finding has me on my toes sometimes. But I'm getting much better at not giving a shite. I'll father them the way I father them. They're actually thriving with me, in my opinion, as I give them a lot of room to be kids.
I'm a snooper, so you won't get beatings from me that you're investigating OM. I am very against dating while separated especially when there's children involved. Let me clarify that - involving the children with who their dating. But that's just me. My snooping gave me closure and allowed me to move forward quickly. To me, it's a reality check - even if the other person is batchitt crazy, doesn't matter. Actions speak louder than words.
Her and I even talked about how that clause should be in any agreement. I mean come on, the whole thing is still in flux and you're gonna bring someone into the picture with the kids? Here today, gone tomorrow. I don't care how 'careful' they can be around the kids. All it takes is for one of them to come around the corner at the wrong time.
The only snooping I've done at all in months has been for legal stuff. Believe me, I find some gold once in a while.
I'm savoring the warm and fuzzy! I needed one today!
Yeah...I could use a warm and fuzzy myself.
Still in school (switched schools actually and this one is way more cool), hopefully 1.5-2 more years and I'll be done. Old, but done. Just in time for a career change which I am really looking forward to.
I've changed careers about 5 or six times now. I got the paperwork to apply for the Master's Degree I'd like to get. They only accept incoming in the fall but I need to have it all in by February. I was hoping to have some resolution to see where I'm going to land financially but it looks like that isn't going to happen. I'll push it through anyway and see what the financial aid/loans look like.
lol @ old. I'll be around 50 or so when I finish if I can get into the program next fall. I figure about 5 years part time.
There are people who do it much later than that. You're among a small minority who actually take the jump to do it - most people just write off the desire to fear or age or some other nonsense.
Other than that, life is very, very good to me. No R's but right now I am grateful for the time to be present in my own life without distraction. Really, it is awesome.
Relationship...lol. I have no desire. Nada. Zip. Zilch. It's like that whole section of me is in sleep mode. It's fine though. I'm at a point where I really need to be on my own and do some more discovery.
I'm glad you're doing well. There's not many still around here that followed my sitch. I talk to Tim once in a while, and haven't seen Tennessee Mike in a long while.
I stalk you, so what? Someone has to keep an eye on you!
WT
I kinda like the stalking...it's exciting and mysterious. I never know when you're going to pop out in front of me.
Thought I'd drop this here. Can't see it enough times as a reminder:Many lack the tools in how to deal with the bumps and see running as the answer to escape their pain.
Changing seats on the titanic.
They have to learn that they are the only ones responsible for their own happiness. It doesn't come from someone else, it comes from within.
This is a big one. I know my W thinks I am the problem and I would guess a lot of WAS's feel that same way about their LBS. If I get rid of the problem (LBS) then my problems will be solved. I'll find someone who isn't a 'problem' for me. Unfortunately wherever they go there they are. The same patterns, the same cycles only the scenery changes.
They have to be left to their journey without interference as it is the only way they will ever have a chance to resolve their issues.
They have to do this by themselves. We are the last people they want to point out the obvious. They'll just resent us more - I have learned this first hand in my sitch.
You let them go to walk their path. Where they end up is anyone's guess.
Just remember, their past and present behavior doesn't equal their future behavior. If it was like that, none of us would be here.
We got the epiphany, you can't guess if they will or won't. Absolutely impossible. They thought we would never change so they were wrong.
CD, I've followed you from the beginning. You're a quick study and like me, you'll dig until you're satisfied that you have the answers for yourself. IMO there's nothing wrong with that as long as you're not obsessed and living your life. Sounds as if you're doing just that. You're going to be better than OK no matter how your sitch turns out.
Continue to take care of you and your beautiful D.
Welcome to the MLC board.
SA
CD, I think you're searching for an answer you won't ever get. I believe it's just not possible because there are basically an infinite amount of variables.
It boils down to this - they are doing what they are doing and it doesn't matter why. Knowing why doesn't change anything. Sure, you see their issues and what those issues did. But it makes no difference except if they want to return. Then you have solid things you both need to work on.
You do the work on yourself. They walk their path - either their paths cross ours again or it doesn't. There are many people who divorce and stay separate for the rest of their lives, and there are many who split/divorce and end up reconciling later on after they both go through the growth they need to go through, or not.
I have boundaries set in my mind if that day ever comes for me. I don't expect it either way, so I keep moving forward on my path. I have no clue how the future will unfold. But I am responsible for me, and my W is responsible for herself. Period.
Had a pretty good weekend. Had IC on Saturday and that went well. Then I went straight to a Kayaking adventure. I wasn't going to go but I just said I need to get out and have some fun. Met a few people while I was there.
It was a sunset paddle out so I got to watch the sun drop from the middle of the Hudson River. Good times.
Sunday I drove an hour into New Jersey and met up with about 5 guys from a No More Mister Nice Guy group. I hooked up with them through the NMMNG forums. Great bunch of guys. We hung out for about 3 or 4 hours.
It was nice to be with a group of like minded men who are all working on themselves.
Nothing else happened. No contact with my W at all. I did send a text picture of the sunset to my kids via her cell phone. Other than that no contact. And right now I prefer it that way.
I think there was maybe 2 emails, 1 face to face (which didn't have to occur but she came into the house when she came by to put our D on the bus) and maybe 2 or 3 texts in the past 3 weeks.
I'd like to see no new drama at least until our next court date on Oct 12.
lol @ CD. I like to bring stuff over no matter who posts it when it's really something I could see over and over. You know, like you, I do print these threads out and one day will re-read through them.
I wish there was a quicker way to save the threads. I copt and paste each page and save to Word. tedious.
Like to be able to simply request a pdf.
CD you can set how many posts you see on each page.
Just click on My Stuff, then go to Edit Preferences. Scroll down and you'll see Total topics to to show per page: (default is 10)
I have mine set at 30. That way you can just copy and paste more posts at one time. I'm not sure what the highest number you can set it at but you can fool around with it some.
Communication between my W and I has been sparse. I like it that way.
At 6:24 my phone rings. It's Kathy's cell. My ringtone is Walk Away by the Dropkick Murphy's. Go to youtube and listen to it. It's my anthem.
It's my S. He asks me to come over and get him. Then he says he wants me to come there and help him with his homework. I asked what was wrong. He said, "Mommy isn't helping me with my homework. She's giving me really long sentences to write." I asked if he asked her to make the sentences smaller. He told me he did.
Then he starts saying she won't even let him do his homework now and he's going to get in trouble at school tomorrow. I explained to him I was at work and I couldn't come by but he should just do the sentences. I told him in the time he is using complaining and calling me he could have had his homework done.
My D got on the phone and told me to come home. lol In a very authoritative tone. It was really cute.
They hung up the phone. My W is very authoritative and uses the carrot/stick method with the kids. I have been looking at a lot of alternatives because I know that method doesn't work to grow a healthy kid. I am reading Positive Discipline and it's more in making them responsible for their actions and to feel the consequences of their decision, while helping them to solve problems and give them a say in their life.
I've been doing it for a while now and I've had good results with it. I hardly put them in any time-outs because they now reverse their behavior and take responsibility. It's actually a pretty cool thing to watch happen.
Instead of working out a compromise my W will give him a long sentence and then stick to it like glue. I like to put wiggle room in there and would then compromise between what he wants to do (a very short sentence I'm sure) and the long sentence.
It becomes a win-win. Teaches him a lot too.
At 4:53 I got a text from my W telling me a notice came in my son's folder about his school was going to be on the TV tonight. There was a crew there today filming.
[begin back story]
I'm not sure if I posted this earlier in my thread, but a notice came home the other week reminding parents of an open house that night. My W never alerted me to it. I sent a text telling her that we had agreed any time sensitive information will be immediately communicated to the other parent. Of course she came back with all these excuses, telling me it was on the wall calendar, it's on the school website, it was in the monthly flier, it's not my job to remind you, blah, blah, blah.
I merely sent a text back - I was just pointing out the fact you did not contact me regarding time sensitive information as we had agreed. I didn't say anything about you having to remind me or even if I knew about it or not. You added all the rest of that stuff in there.
[end back story]
My boundary enforcement. So today she contacted me right away. Amazing how it works when you enforce those boundaries.
At 8:03 I get a text - our D just told me they said open house is tomorrow at pre k. I went online and it says it is open house. I have not seen anything about this come home, have you?
Me - Nothing came home but I saw it on the website calendar and put it on my schedule. I was going to text u as a reminder. Obviously you don't need it now. ru going? I don't know what time it starts though. Wasn't on their website.
W - I am going to bring D. I think she wants to go. I don't think there's anything we haven't heard yet or don't already know from S having gone there. I plan to call the school tomorrow for details.
Me - Ok. I will not be going then.
Just capturing it for journal purposes.
Wanted to drop this here from another thread:
CD as the years have passed and I've watched things I've found life has a life of it's own. Sometimes you can work your a$$ off to get somewhere and never get there, and other times it happens through serendipitous actions that are just like connecting the dots. It's hard to explain.
It's far from a fatalistic viewpoint. It's more like an artistic masterpiece where the brush is stroking all over the place and stroke one is this event, stroke two is that event, stroke 3, etc... in hindsight you can see the picture that was created and how all the strokes were perfectly laid out to create the masterpiece I call my life.
Each stroke is interpreted through my filter as 'good' or 'bad' based on my ignorance of trying to interpret them from where I'm at in that given moment when the stroke is made. But I have found as time marches on they all blend in together like an orchestrated piece.
My part in it all is how I actually behave and react while the strokes are being put down. Like the river analogy. The strokes happen and the only question is can I live with the strokes, not putting any value on them in the context of good or bad (defined only by my limited perspective without the ability to see how they will fit together in the future), and be able to be present in the moment and experiencing the actual joy of life itself.
It's like a giant chess game you are watching. The pieces move but you're not a chess player so you can't see how each move is lining up the next move. The chess player knows but you don't. In this analogy the chess player is life (my definition of God). The game is constantly being adjusted based on our reaction to the things that are happening.
It's a hard concept for me to actually verbalize. I see it way beyond what some people say is fatalism. It's like the pieces keep getting moved around for the best outcome for all involved. If you ride it and don't fight against the current, stay awake and see the pieces that arise we need to adjust within ourselves, life becomes effortless.
From one perspective it can appear as predetermined, but from another it's not preditermined at all, but rather a function of how the players in the play handle themselves inside of it.
For example, we've talked about cycles. When the cycle comes full circle you either take the opportunity to grow and evolve or you don't. If you do, then the game moves and you start in a new cycle. If you're awake and attentive you see what surfaces as the thing which will evolve you. If you miss the opportunity then the cycle repeats at that level. Different players, different details, but underneath a current of the same loop.
I was speaking to someone about this yesterday in regard to my father in law. He got really drunk a few weeks back, fell and was brought to the hospital. He detoxed there and was put into a psych ward. He spent weeks with no alcohol. When he came home he was at an apex in his cycle - a choice. If he stayed away from the booze and new cycle would have started up. If he drinks, he will enter back into the same cycle until the next apex.
The cycle is full of apex's where you can take a jump, but from my observation there are apex's that are created which all of a sudden create a situation where it forces you to look the decision right in the eye if you can't see it for yourself.
Each pass through the cycle creates a stronger and stronger 'critical' apex. It's like a drunk who first blackouts. Next apex he gets a DUI. Next one his family cuts him off. Next one his wife leaves him; loses his job; goes bankrupt, etc...
The pressure squeezes harder and harder pushing the person closer to their bottom.
People who fear rejection will constantly find themselves in situations where they are rejected until they pull out the root cause. The situation is both caused by a self fulfilling prophecy working hand in hand with life creating people/situations which push us back into the cycle. Different scenery, but nothing changes in the undercurrent level.
Wow, did I write all of that? lol
Keep what's useful and throw out the rest.
Had my S last night and we slept over my brother's house. I took him to my house around 8:30 to put him on the bus. As I was driving over to the house I was hoping my W would either be in the house or already on her way to work. She puts my D on the bus at 8:20 so I was hopeful she wouldn't be outside.
When I got near the house I saw her outside talking to our neighbor. Instead of pulling into the driveway I made a left turn and parked on the corner of the street where my S's bus picks him up. It's actually directly across the street from the house.
My S jumped out and said hello to my W across the street. I stayed in the car and his bus came within a few minutes. I jumped out and put him on the bus. When the bus pulled away I thought, "How am I going to say hello to my neighbor and leave my W out of it?" "Is that going to make me look like an ass?" "Ok, stop thinking and do what YOU want to do."
Said hi to my neighbor and walked toward my car. My W said, "He just jumps right on the bus." I said, "Yeah, we need him to teach our D to do that." She cries every morning getting on the bus.
I didn't even look at her. Just got in my car and drove away.
I don't want to interact with her. I don't want to see her. I don't want to talk to her. I definitely don't want to be in a position where she can take some interaction between us and spin it around to make it look like I did something 'wrong'.
I don't care what it makes me look like to basically ignore/avoid her. It's what I have to do to protect myself after her continuous fabricating and lying.
This is a long one....
I never update the rest of this post I made regarding the conversation I had the night she tried to move back into the house:
Night of conversationI'm just going to copy and paste some emails regarding that evening. We had about an hour conversation after the kids went to bed and it was the first civil conversation we've had about the D issues in a long time. There were many things we disagreed on and we basically agreed to disagree. There was some reminiscing about some of the things we did in the past and at one point she shed some tears.
When we were done she leaned toward me as if she wanted to hug me. (This is the body language I 'saw and felt') She got up off the bed, turned toward me, then left the room. After a few minutes I got up and went into the hallway. She was in the bathroom and I stood about 8 feet away and said, "It looked like you wanted a hug in there." She stepped out of the bathroom and we hugged. I said, "We may as well do this now because it may be a long time before we may do this."
She even thanked me as we let go. I turned and went into my room. I heard her in the hallway and I called out to her. She said she'd be a minute because she wanted to check on my D. She popped her head into my room and I said, "At first I wasn't going to say this because I worry about what your reaction will be. But as I told you before, I'm working on being transparent and saying what I feel and think. So I'm not going to not do this. That was the first time in a long time I felt attracted to you." I immediately saw how that comment could be interpreted to so I followed up with, "I don't mean that in a relationship between you and I way. It's on a friendship level where we could actually sit down and talk."
She left and went into her room.
The next day I get this email:
I was afraid to tell you how I felt last night because in the past you became very angry when I said things of this nature. When you came to the bathroom door after the kids were asleep, you said you thought I wanted to hug you. You then proceeded to hug me. I was very uncomfortable with this but went along with it so as not to trigger you. I also did not feel comfortable when you kissed my cheek. You then proceeded to tell me that you felt attracted to me for the first time in a long time. I felt very uncomfortable about this and did not want to be hugged or kissed but was unable to express this because I was afraid that you would get angry. You have in the past become very angry at what you perceive as rejection and/or dismissal.
As I said last night, I do not want to live in a house with you but am being forced to because your lawyer is adamant in his argument that if I participate in a 50/50 split of the house I agree with it. I have never agreed with it. I think it is unhealthy for the children to live like this but I was not given a choice in the matter.
Please do not touch me, hug me, kiss me, or flirt with me. I do not want to hear about your attraction to me. I will continue to behave civilly to you to create the most beneficial environment possible for the children through this unstable time.
Thank you for complying to my requests,I sent this at first:
No problem. None of it was of a sexual nature at all. Sorry about the confusion. Thanks for telling me.After thinking about it a little bit and seeing how she totally twisted it around I sent this email:
I think it's strange you are saying what you're saying since I let go of the hug and you held me longer and then proceeded to thank me for it. I understand your need to do legal posturing. You came into MY room and sat on MY bed and we had a nice conversation which cleared some stuff up between us.
On a few occasions I have extended an olive branch so we can be on more friendly terms. I do this because our children do feel the tension even in our 'civility'.
<wife> this 'triggering' is in your head and is not an accurate reflection of reality. There is and has never been a triggering of me. There has been frustration and disappointment in the past due to behavior by you which I found unacceptable. Dismissing a person is very disrespectful and I feel I have a right to state my opinion as such.
It's sad I feel the whole conversation was a set up by you, but it is what it is.I accidentally hit the send button before I was done so I followed up with the rest of my email:
I accidentally sent the message before I was done.
You are misconstruing any actions which you feel are flirting with you. I have no desire to flirt with you and have not conducted myself in any flirtatious manner. Any behavior you are calling flirting is a misinterpretation on your part.
The attraction comment was purely on a friendly level since we had a nice conversation. I immediately said that to you because it was obvious to me how the comment could be misinterpreted. I even told you it had nothing to do with you and I being in any relationship besides a friendly nature.
I just wanted to clear up your misunderstanding so there is no confusion. I do appreciate your candor and I'm glad we were able to talk about the things we did last night.The next day I get this from her:
My lack of response to your comments does not in any way reflect agreement. There is one thing I do want to remind you of on this manner - you told me before the kids went to bed that you wanted to talk to me after they were asleep. I went into your room upon your request. Our conversation was over and I was brushing my teeth to go to bed when you approached me in the bathroom. I then typed up an email but didn't send it. I was actually tired of this back and forth crap over something she totally twisted around. It's saved as a draft:
I did say I wanted to talk to you. You came into my room because you wanted to talk also. If you didn't want to have a conversation with me you wouldn't have. You had every freedom to decline a conversation with me and in no way were you forced, coerced, or manipulated into talking with me.You came in and sat on my bed approximately 3 to 4 feet away from me - obviously not a position which would indicate any fear or concern of your physical well being. We covered a lot of areas in which we disagree and even cleared up some misunderstandings between us. You even shed tears due to your emotional reaction to some of the things we talked about. We spoke about how we 'did it right' as far as our children were concerned and even reminisced of some of the good times we had.
You speak of a 'trigger' which you have talked about in the past. You anticipated a 'trigger' when you told me you didn't want to be married; when I was served with the first Refrain from order; when I was served with the second refrain from order; when I was served with Divorce papers. None of those events created any reaction by me except a normal response by a person in those situations. You even called <MC> after I was served with the first Refrain From Order and she assured you my reaction to it was normal.
This supposed 'trigger' is something which you have manufactured in your mind and is not an accurate reflection of reality or my expressed behavior. It is the same as when your anxiety created the illusion I could somehow be downstairs lighting a fire to burn down the house. You even stated in <MC>'s office you did not believe I would do this but as you remarked, "You never know. Your read about these things in the newspaper every day where someone snaps and hurts their family. <me> is a person who reads about these kinds of events and says 'Why didn't the person just take themselves and leave their wife and children out of it?' "
You go on to talk about a fear of how I will react if I face rejection by you. The whole conversation we just had was all about rejecting me as a spouse, splitting up and custody information. There were things we discussed in which we didn't agree - all rejections of my point of view or opinion. It was about us not being together and talk about the custody differences and all about rejection on some level. You have been rejecting me for two and a half years now. You tried to get two court orders and served me with divorce papers. I think divorce papers is a pretty big form of rejection. Obviously your actions and what you are saying don't match. If you had such a fear of me you wouldn't have come back into the house; you wouldn't have come into my room to talk; as well as a number of other times where you were alone with the kids and I when you could have very easily not been there or had a third party come with you.
I didn't approach you "in" the bathroom. I was in the hallway when I spoke to you. I also want to remind you that you stepped out of the bathroom and outside the doorway with your arms open and a smile on your face. You even thanked me for the hug afterward. Your attitude, body language and speech did not reflect the position you have now taken as to the meaning of those events.
You have taken something that was healthy and a clearing of some animosity between us and have perverted it into something other than what it was for what I believe is in an attempt to cover yourself legally and to make me look like a person who is violating your space; flirting with you; making gestures of physical contact against your will; a person who will somehow trigger into anger; who induces fear in you. You have turned it 180 degrees from the reality of what it actually was in what I believe is an attempt to support your position and continue to convince people the situation is different than it actually was.
Lets call a spade a spade <Wife>. I can say I am saddened by your twisting things around in order for you to get what you want and to validate a perspective of me which isn't true. This has been ongoing and what you have been doing for some time. I accept that. This is who you are being toward me in this situation. It isn't the totality of who you are but is a very consistent behavior you are showing toward me for a long time now.
I opened myself up to you and put some trust in you and you betrayed that trust. I should have known better. You can twist it any way you want, but the truth remains the same no matter how much you try to 'change' it.
I will continue to stand up for myself and speak my mind whenever I feel my personal boundaries are crossed. I will not apologize for that because it is a healthy position for me take in order to preserve my dignity and self respect - this is something we even spoke about that evening and your comment to it was, "Good for you."
I understand email communications lack any affect but I assure you this has been written and communicated without any anger or ill intent.
As far as I'm concerned this issue is done and I don't wish to revisit it at all.I her court motion this is what she wrote about that night:
k. Nevertheless, even as recently as the day before my swearing to this affidavit, on August 31, 2010, defendant encountered me in the bathroom doorway of the home, while the children were sleeping, and blocked the doorway. He forced me to hug him, kissed my cheek, and told me that he was feeling "attracted" to me for the "first time in a long time."
l. I have seen defendant become extremely upset at any behavior he construes as "rejection" and the incidents of yesterday, August 31, 2010, cause me to be extremely fearful. I have nevertheless notified defendant, once again, via email, that such behavior is unwelcome and unacceptable. However, without an Order of Protection in this regard, defendant is unlikely to refrain from such behavior.
m. As such I am requesting an Order that defendant stay away from myself and from my residence.I know it's a really long post, but I wanted to put it out here to show how she is twisting everything around to portray me as some kind of 'monster'. It's actually sickening to read it again.
I'm not so hung up anymore about her opinion of me and I know there's a certain amount of coaching from her L but her ability to do this kind of thing is nauseating and totally beyond my comprehension of how someone can keep doing this kind of thing.
This is only one of many examples of interactions she has spun and those are the reasons I do not want to interact with her at all - except for email/texts about the kids. She's off the hook.
When I told my IC about this last Saturday she said, "Well she's been doing this for a long time now. Why did you eve hug her?" I simply said, "I made a mistake." The MC said, "Wow. That right there shows how far you have come. In the past you would have tried to come up with some elaborate explanation to defend your behavior or explain yourself."
I laughed and said, "Yeah. It's what I'm working on. Being straight up and not defending or explaining my behavior."
Some sandi2 gold:
... I find that the majority of the LBH's here on the board are too.....nice. She doesn't need "nice" from you. She needs to learn something that "nice" doesn't teach. She needs to be jolted, shocked, head-jerked into seeing that you do not have to be nice to her. She doesn't deserve a nice, polite, gentleman for a H. She didn't appreciate that kind of H, so now she can deal with the fact that it had been your choice to be nice to her....certainly wasn't her sweetness that drew it out of you. Get the picture?
I know you don't want to mistreat her or be cruel and I'm not saying that. I'm saying to show strength all the way, and most times the WAW in the A cannot see "strength" by means of kindness, gentleness, loving ways. Most times, she's too messed up to see anything that she's used to having. It takes something different to cause her to see. So, when you don't say "Yes,Dear" whenever she snaps her fingers....it will shock her. Some women have never seen any other side of their H's except the nice. Don't do what she expects.
Now, I said all of that hoping you knew that I am not talking about showing a bad attitude, or to be moody, or anything negative. When a man acts like that, he's letting her know that she's controlling him. Instead, show strength of the man you are, show that you are decisive, show that you are very self-confident, and always have polished manners...in the presence of a female who conducts herself like a lady. But, do you know how you can do all of that without appearing to be her pushover? You can, you know.
If it seems to be out of character somehow, or doesn't fit your personality....maybe you just need to practice. How would you act around a female who was no lady and openly disrepected you? Would you bow at her feet, throw your cape over the mudpuddle for her to walk across, or kiss her hand? I doubt it. Be like Rhett Butler and have a "don't give a damn" toward her. If you can do that, then you don't have to consider subjects like this.....b/c "Frankly my dear, you just don't do it for me anymore"......(My own editing...lol).
"A Bill of Assertive Rights" - From When I say No I Feel Guilty by Manuel J. Smith
1. You have the right to judge your own behaviour, thoughts, and emotions, and to take the responsibility for their initiation and consequences upon yourself.
2. You have the right to offer no reasons or excuses for justifying your behaviour.
3. You have the right to judge whether you are responsible for finding solutions to other people's problems.
4. You have the right to change your mind.
5. You have the right to make mistakes - and be responsible for them.
6. You have the right to say, "I don't know."
7. You have the right to be independent of the goodwill of others before coping with them.
8. You have the right to be illogical in making decisions.
9. You have the right to say, "I don't understand."
10. You have the right to say, "I don't care."
LOVE THIS ^^^^^^^^^^
Thanks, Steady
Excerpt from Mastery of Life by Bill Ferguson:
When you are in the experience of love, you are happy, alive and free. You see life clearly and are very effective. Solutions and
opportunity present themselves. You have a very positive attitude and great things happen around you.
The opposite state is one of fear and upset. When you are in this state, you close down inside. You lose your ability to see clearly and become very negative. You also get tunnel vision. This tunnel vision does two very destructive things. It destroys your ability to find solutions and it forces you to fight, resist, hang on and withdraw. Instead of resolving the problem, you magnify it.
Any area of life that isn’t working is an area where this tunnel vision is present. Once you remove the tunnel vision, you restore your ability to see clearly. You see what needs to be done and this area of life clears up.
The state of mind that we have at any moment seems to be the result of what happens around us, but it’s not. It’s the result of how we relate to what happens. A good way to see this is to look at the nature of upsets.
Upsets are not caused by what happens.
Upsets seem to be caused by what happens, but this is an illusion. Upsets are not caused by what happens. They are caused by fighting and resisting what happens.
To see this in your life, select a recent upset. Now notice what would happen to the upset if, somehow, you were at peace with what happened. There would be no upset. There would be no upset, because the upset wasn't caused by what happened. The upset was caused by fighting and resisting what happened. The moment you take away the fighting and resisting, the upset disappears. You restore both your peace of mind and your effectiveness.
Now notice what would happen if someone spilled a glass of water on you. You would be wet whether you liked it or not. If you were at peace with being wet, there would be no upset. You would have peace of mind. If you fought being wet, you would be upset, and the more you fought being wet, the more upset you would be.
Upsets are not caused by what happens. They can only exist if you fight and resist what happens. Nothing has the power to make you upset. Only you can do that.
Resisting makes your situation worse.
The moment you get upset, you close down inside. You get tunnelvision and lose your ability to see clearly. All you can do is fight, resist, hang on and withdraw. This, in turn, destroys love and creates opposition and resistance against yourself. Almost anything you do in this state makes your situation worse. Resisting doesn’t make your situation clear up.
Resisting magnifies the problem.
Imagine four yellow balloons on the ceiling above you. Now, whatever you do, don’t think of them. You just thought about them. Don’t do that. Stop. Notice what happens when you resist the yellow balloons. You keep thinking about them. In fact, you can hardly think of anything else.
Resisting the thought of yellow balloons gives the thought power and keeps it alive. The same thing happens with anything you resist. By your resisting, you magnify and give power to whatever you are resisting.
Let's say that you are married and that you have a fear of losing your spouse. The more you resist losing your spouse, the more you hang on and the more you push your spouse away. Find a characteristic that you resisted in someone. What happened to that characteristic when you resisted it? It grew. It grew in your perception and it actually showed up more in the world around you.
Look at any area of your life that isn’t working. This will be an area where you are resisting.
The Law of Cause and Effect
At any moment, you are totally, 100% at the effect of the world around you. No matter what happens around you, you will react accordingly. At the same time, the world around you is totally 100% at the effect of you. Whatever you do, or don’t do, the world around you will react to you. This makes you the cause.
You are totally at the effect of everything around you. You are also the cause. You are both at the same time. You react to the world around you and the world reacts to you. Although you are both at the same time, you only experience yourself as one or the other.
When you experience yourself as being “at the effect,” you become a victim of your circumstances. You have no power. Your confidence drops. Your energy drops and your negativity grows. You lose your ability to see clearly and you become very ineffective. Any time you are upset or have an area of life that isn’t working, you are “at the effect.” Being “at the effect” is a painful state. It’s also something that we create. We put ourselves “at the effect” by fighting and resisting the truth of the way our circumstances are.
We resist the truth. We go through life fighting and resisting, but what we fight is the truth.
At any moment, the people in your life are exactly the way that they are. You are the way that you are and your life is exactly the way that it is. This is true no matter how you feel about it. Look at the areas of your life that work great. These are areas where you can flow with whatever happens. Now look at the areas of your life that don’t work. These are areas of life where you are fighting the truth of something.
You may fight the way someone is or what the person does. You may fight certain aspects of your job or an unexpected bill. But no matter what you fight and resist, that aspect of your life is still the way that it is. Your feelings about it are totally irrelevant.
Effective action can resolve a situation, but resisting won’t. Fighting the truth will only make your situation worse. Any area of your life that isn’t working is an area where you are resisting.
Take a few moments now and look over your life. What do you resist? What are the areas of your life that don’t work? Where can’t you flow? Where do you get upset? Be specific. Use the next page to write down everything that you resist.
When you have finished, make a list of all your fears. A fear is created by resisting a future event. What future events are you avoiding and resisting? What are your fears? List them all.
While you are making your lists, notice how irrelevant your feelings are. Notice that what you are resisting is the truth.
Steady, it's getting to the point where I'm copy/pasting everything you write.
I am simply awed by the exponential growth in your mindset and perspective.
Tremendous work, my friend
lol @ exponential growth. Today, esp tonight's been a little tougher than normal for me. On the way home from picking up my son he's talking about one day buying a 4 wheeler and driving it OM's parents house. They have some property and one of those gators he takes the kids on when they've been there.
For some reason it's irking me a little more tonight than normal. I looked around for any triggers, dates I forgot about, etc... but nothing.
Must just be a phase.
It feels more in the line of her driving somewhere to meet him and them doing the whole 'teenage, I'm in love' thing. I guess I'm sitting here thinking she's having this grand old time and I'm just wanting to get through this cr@p she keeps throwing at me.
I just want to be done with it all, in my own place, taking care of the kids and interacting with her even less than we are now.
My phone rang at 3:00 and I saw it was her. I moved the phone because I wasn't going to answer it but I hit one of the buttons that picks it up. She ended up telling me about some mosquito bites around my D's right eye and how they were going to send a bus route change form home that needs to be signed. She said she hadn't gotten around a computer all day so she wanted to call me to let me know.
I didn't say anything. As soon as she was done I just waited. There was silence for a little while so I assumed she was done. I just said, ok, I'll talk to you later and got off.
It was something she could have just sent a text on and I wish she would just do that. Nothing time sensitive.
Just feeling a bit on the down side right now. I know it will pass, but I'm still susceptible to theses small waves.
Steady
Yep...just a phase...a little cycling...very normal dude.
Dude - I have watched your thread for a while now...this wave that you are riding....you know is going to end. So stop feeling down, stand the f*ck up and keep going.
Chin up!
God Bless,
Eric
hey eric. Thanks for stopping by. I just noticed your joint date is my birthday...lol.
Yeah I know it will pass. Just a down cycle. Haven't had one in a while - actually a long while, and I know it will pass. I forgot how much they can suck.
I actually get a little gratitude once I center myself because it gives me another repetition to practice balancing and overcoming the mental masturbation.
Thanks for stopping over man.
Hey Steady sorry to see you down. Unfortunately, we all know these situations have there ups and downs.
I'm surprised though, because you were always one of the stronger ones that helped me out. That's how I know it's normal and ok to feel down at times.
I have posted an update to my situation on my thread. Stop by when you get the chance.
Hi tbart. Nice to see you back here. I'll check out your update. I often go to your thread to see if you've come back so I'm glad you've given me the heads up. It's been a few weeks since I've checked.
Knowing something and applying it are completely two different things. All of the knowing in the world doesn't mean anything unless you can actually do it.
I'm getting another opportunity to DO what I KNOW. It's actually a gift from life.
This is from an email I sent another DB'er today.
Actually I don't think I'm advancing that much. This is what happens. Whatever I'm working on, letting go, GAL, digging out shame, working on boundaries, etc... I go with it. What happens is my posts contain that element. I've been in boundaries for a while so if you look at my posts they have boundaries as the underlying current.
A lot of stuff I post is knowledge I already have. But I pass through them for another loop and try to take it up a 'level' - or at least improve my application of it even if a little bit.
I did get the breakthrough the other week when I sent you that text. That was a very big one for me, although I can't even remember what it specifically was...lol. I know it was around boundaries and how I treat people in relation to how they treat me, etc...
Now, with my W having the OM and I know she goes and meets him - her pillows are gone as well as her hair dryer - she doesn't take these things when she stays at her mom's house because she already has them there. That's how I know she's meeting him somewhere.
I imagine her in that falling in love stage and it burns me up. I have anger and depression running through me. So what do I do with it? Do I just let it consume me or do I take it as another opportunity to work on how I look at life? For most of today and last night I allowed it to consume me, now, I work to improve myself in relation to it.
The files I posted to you are right in line with my philosophy of life. They're about letting go, letting life unfold as it will, not to fight and resist because that's what causes the suffering. Here's the example specific to my life right now - W is probably with the OM living it up. Having fun, laughing, crying on his shoulder as a 'victim', feeling him supporting (really enabling her issues) her, etc...
Well I can go the route of - well she's got her share of issues, he's got his, they'll eventually collide then reality will set in, her good will turn bad, ....blah, blah, blah,
or
I can look inside myself and see why I am resisting reality. Things are already AS THEY ARE. That's it, that's reality, My anger and depression isn't caused by her being with him, it's being caused by my perception of what that means to ME. I am resisting what is so I suffer. I know this. But obviously it isn't deep enough into me or else this wouldn't be having the effect it's having. So I have work to do. Letting go, letting life, accepting reality, dropping resistance, elevating my mindset to a level where I can feel peace and contentment in my life right now with everything as it already is. So, since I"m in this loop, you'll probably see posts and such from that perspective.
Steady -
Just read your post and wanted to say thank you for all your insights and postings. I too have copied many down as they will be great reminders during all my waves of strength and regressions. I've shared many of the feeling and sentiments you've expressed. Much appreciated.
MySitch
Me - 35
W - 34
Phy Sep - 7/1/10
Want a "legal separation" 9/1/10
Brooklyn? Just curious. It was the first thing that crossed my mind when I read your name. I was born at Kings Hospital and lived on E 59th St. in Flatbush.
Anyway, I appreciate you stopping by. You've been here a little while and I'm sorry to see you need to be here. I'll wander over to your thread and see if there's anything I can help with.
I think the feelings and sentiments are universal for all the left behind spouses. It is so much better than it has been over the past years (I've been in this sitch since Jan 08) and the lows aren't anywhere near as pervasive or deep.
I'm already almost completely out of the one I just found myself in. This one didn't start until late yesterday afternoon. I remember when they would last for weeks or even months.
Thanks again for you post.
I can look inside myself and see why I am resisting reality. Things are already AS THEY ARE. That's it, that's reality, My anger and depression isn't caused by her being with him, it's being caused by my perception of what that means to ME. I am resisting what is so I suffer. I know this. But obviously it isn't deep enough into me or else this wouldn't be having the effect it's having. So I have work to do. Letting go, letting life, accepting reality, dropping resistance, elevating my mindset to a level where I can feel peace and contentment in my life right now with everything as it already is. So, since I"m in this loop, you'll probably see posts and such from that perspective.
Brilliant.
Continue detaching. Doesn't mean it's not gonna hurt. Doesn't mean you're not going to have moments of thinking how inappropriate she's being. But those moments won't be hours, days of spinning. Have the thought, acknowledge it, learn what you can about yourself and let it go.
You're keepin' it real, my friend. And that's a very good thing.
WT
You guessed right. Brooklyn it is. I can't imagine being in my sitch for as long as you have but I take comfort in the knowledge and wisdom you've shared. The hard part is truly learning and living it (especially as I'm more of a sprinter and not a marathon runner so to speak.)
Riding that wave indeed...
WT, once again, my rock. This is gonna get get sappy but I don't care. Although we've never met and don't know each other outside of these boards I consider you one of my friends. You have been with me for quite some time and continue to be.
I really appreciate the fact you continue to watch my thread and interject when you do. You always seem to have the knack of hitting the spot and help point me in the right direction. I respect you for that.
This phase of spinning around the drain has stopped and I have a clear direction of work. I'm getting on it as soon as I finish posting and put my S to bed.
I am starting to see when I hit these times of negativity, the faster I dig to find the message life is giving me the quicker I come out of it. I really do find life has a life of its own and has always given me what I needed, not necessarily what I wanted. I'll take needed over wanted any day.
Thanks for stopping by.
You guessed right. Brooklyn it is. I can't imagine being in my sitch for as long as you have but I take comfort in the knowledge and wisdom you've shared. The hard part is truly learning and living it (especially as I'm more of a sprinter and not a marathon runner so to speak.)
Riding that wave indeed...
The thing that kicked it off was in Jan 08 she told me she wanted to see a marriage counselor because she wasn't happy. We went to one for about 4 sessions until the counselor told my W she was a catastrophizer. Of course we couldn't go back because the C pushed my W's most tender button - one of her issues.
In April of 08 I got the bomb. MC from Aug until Dec. W just blew smoke up my a$$ and didn't do anything the MC told her she needed to do. MC told us both we need to do IC to dispose of the issues we each carried into the M. I did it, W went twice until the C poked her issues.
Jan 09 W said she wanted a D. MC was over. We lived in same house until Jan 10. This was after we did a forensic analysis with a PhD Clinical Psychologist who slammed her in his report. She was and is fighting me over custody.
We've been rotating in and out of the house ever since. She has made 2 attempts at getting a restraining order and now is trying a 3rd time - this time in the divorce court rather than family court.
So yeah, two and a half years of cr@p. But man have I grown. I took the opportunity to grow.
You'll come to the understanding this place isn't about saving your M. It's about saving yourself. If you can reconcile your M it will be a bonus. But I can assure you of this - if you don't save yourself, you won't save your M. Even if you reconcile, without you both making the changes the M will only go back to what brought you here now.
Read the book NMMNG. I think you'll find it speaks to you. Just my gut feeling, but I've learned to trust my gut.
You'll come to the understanding this place isn't about saving your M. It's about saving yourself. If you can reconcile your M it will be a bonus. But I can assure you of this - if you don't save yourself, you won't save your M. Even if you reconcile, without you both making the changes the M will only go back to what brought you here now.
Deserves a quote
It seems this down cycle is more pervasive than I thought. I am having an influx of all kinds of feelings. Anger, regret, loss, fear.
I've absorbed a sizable amount of debt due to the legal costs and the D process hasn't even started yet.
Yesterday I sent her a text asking her to pick up some allergy pills for our S from a store which is only a few minutes from where she works. Probably only a block and a half from the route she takes home. It got insane. She refused to do it, telling me it's my turn to get them, my turn to pay certain bills, etc...
This went back and forth twice and got to a point where it was totally ridiculous.
As I was typing out a response to her last email, I just suddenly realized how stupid it was to have gone where we ended up over a $27 box of pills. Her behavior was spiteful and vindictive and I called her on it. But in the end, what does it matter?
This is what I ended up writing:
I don't see any reason to continue on about this. We have wasted enough time and energy over a $27 box of pills. I'm sure we both have better things to do than engage in a petty argument bickering back and forth between us. I'd be embarrassed to show these emails to someone - we're acting like two immature kids fighting over nonsense. It has only added to the deterioration of our already deteriorating relationship and has added nothing positive to either one of us or our children.
<son> got his pills and that's all that really mattered in the whole thing anyway.
I let myself get pulled in to her game and I'm disappointed in myself.
I'm not sure why I am still cycling on this stuff, on her, on her with OM, on all of it. You would think someone who has endured her barrage of what I can often say is just evil and vindictive behavior wouldn't be cycling around in the emotions.
I wanted to prove my rightness and I wanted to beat her up a little bit. I'd rather not have any of those desires. I'd rather just not care at all one way or the other.
Steady
I could not help but respond to this post as I have cycled as well.
I am having an influx of all kinds of feelings. Anger, regret, loss, fear.
All normal IMO. Deep down inside you still love her and hence you are going through these period where your emotions are all over the place. Ya know what it is okay to still love her. Separate the actions from the person and change how you are looking at this interaction.
I've absorbed a sizable amount of debt due to the legal costs and the D process hasn't even started yet.
Boy do I know what you are talking about. I’m down 7K and we have had ONE meeting with the attnys. IMO – you are going to have to ask yourself a very hard question….Are you fighting for what you
really believe in OR is there some small part of YOU that is trying to MAKE HER realize the consequences of her choice. If it is the later, then ask yourself…is that Steady’s job? Her choices are HER’s – IMO, it is not the LBS’s role to try and HELP them realize the consequences. The consequences will happen as they are suppose to happen.
As I was typing out a response to her last email, I just suddenly realized how stupid it was to have gone where we ended up over a $27 box of pills.]/quote]
SO now you realized how stupid it was….a very simple solution – do better the next time.
[quote]I let myself get pulled in to her game and I'm disappointed in myself.
Your not super man…so ya made a mistake. I guess that makes you human. So, recognize what it is/was and do better the next time.
I wanted to prove my rightness and I wanted to beat her up a little bit. I'd rather not have any of those desires. I'd rather just not care at all one way or the other.
AH….anger….hate it don’t ya. I do too, BUT we have to feel it. Just remember, it is HOW WE deal with it that matters.
Now, pick yourself up – enough of the pity party today – get the f*ck up and keep working on being the man that Steady wants to be!
Stop fighting the love that you still have for her. Stop letting pride and anger drive your interactions. Change how you look at this. Think of it as an opportunity to learn something about yourself as oppose to a bad interaction.
Are you still fighting the natural flow of life? Are you still fighting this?
Maybe it is the NYer in us that make this so difficult – don’t know buddy either way – you can and will do better!
Chin up dude
God Bless,
Eric (a NYer as well)
I'm not sure why I am still cycling on this stuff, on her, on her with OM, on all of it. You would think someone who has endured her barrage of what I can often say is just evil and vindictive behavior wouldn't be cycling around in the emotions.
I wanted to prove my rightness and I wanted to beat her up a little bit. I'd rather not have any of those desires. I'd rather just not care at all one way or the other.
Why? Once you are 'right' what do you do with that? Take the high road, dear friend, like you have so many other times. Would you rather be right or be happy? You want to hurt her like she's hurt you - you have allowed her to hurt you. Stop playing the game. You know what works for you, what takes you to your higher self.
Those desires don't just creep into your head and force you to react. You allow them.
It sounds like that whole conversation (email, text, whatever) was doomed from the start and you knew it. And in the end, you still ended up paying for your son's meds. You could have saved many minutes of bullchit just by going there from the start. Did you really make a point with her, did she learn anything new? No, she once again was able to be a pain in the balls until she got what she wanted anyway.
Quit beating yourself up, you're getting caught by her crap less and less. Learn and move on. But also consider giving my first comment up there a bit more thought. This whole 'dance' is serving some purpose in your life - and only you know what that is.....
WT
Steady
I could not help but respond to this post as I have cycled as well.
I am having an influx of all kinds of feelings. Anger, regret, loss, fear.
All normal IMO. Deep down inside you still love her and hence you are going through these period where your emotions are all over the place. Ya know what it is okay to still love her. Separate the actions from the person and change how you are looking at this interaction.
I'm not sure about separating the person from the actions. I understand it's not the totality of what she is, but it is still how she is right now toward me. I'm sure this type of behavior isn't aimed at anyone else. I'm the target. So on the one hand I know there's a person in there with a lot of good qualities, but I also realize the reality of her behavior right now.
I've absorbed a sizable amount of debt due to the legal costs and the D process hasn't even started yet.
Boy do I know what you are talking about. I’m down 7K and we have had ONE meeting with the attnys. IMO – you are going to have to ask yourself a very hard question….Are you fighting for what you
really believe in OR is there some small part of YOU that is trying to MAKE HER realize the consequences of her choice. If it is the later, then ask yourself…is that Steady’s job? Her choices are HER’s – IMO, it is not the LBS’s role to try and HELP them realize the consequences. The consequences will happen as they are suppose to happen.
I'm sure of my intentions. I have no desire to teach her a lesson. I want my kids. We went through a whole forensic analysis with a Clinical Psychologist and he gave me a ton of time with the kids. She offered me nothing even close to his recommendation. If you read back in my thread you'll see the details of it.
I'm over 12k in all on credit cards. I'm looking at another 4-5k at least for this 3rd attempt at getting a court order against me. All to try and force what she wants. All wasted money.
Teaching her a lesson isn't even a thought when it comes to this legal stuff. For me, it's all about fighting for my kids. And fight I will. I don't care about the house, the money, the things - they're all replaceable. But time with my children is not.
As I was typing out a response to her last email, I just suddenly realized how stupid it was to have gone where we ended up over a $27 box of pills.]/quote]
SO now you realized how stupid it was….a very simple solution – do better the next time.
I let myself get pulled in to her game and I'm disappointed in myself.
Your not super man…so ya made a mistake. I guess that makes you human. So, recognize what it is/was and do better the next time.
I know. The disappointment in myself isn't really that deep. But the energy drain is exhausting. My disappointment is even caring enough to get pulled into it in the first place.
I wanted to prove my rightness and I wanted to beat her up a little bit. I'd rather not have any of those desires. I'd rather just not care at all one way or the other.
AH….anger….hate it don’t ya. I do too, BUT we have to feel it. Just remember, it is HOW WE deal with it that matters.
Anger, the poison we drink waiting for the other person to die. Again, I don't want it.
Stop fighting the love that you still have for her. Stop letting pride and anger drive your interactions. Change how you look at this. Think of it as an opportunity to learn something about yourself as oppose to a bad interaction.
I'm not sure what I have for her anymore. If there's love it's been driven way deep inside of me. It's mostly anger.
Are you still fighting the natural flow of life? Are you still fighting this?
No doubt about it. I know I wouldn't be in the position I've been in for the past few days if I wasn't fighting reality. But knowing and doing are two completely different things. It's getting to the doing where it's all the way into my marrow - that's what I want.
I am watching myself move through the process of the fighting/letting go cycle. It's not happening outside of my awareness. I'm cognitive of it.
I'm not sure why I am still cycling on this stuff, on her, on her with OM, on all of it. You would think someone who has endured her barrage of what I can often say is just evil and vindictive behavior wouldn't be cycling around in the emotions.
Ah always the deeper question.
I would imagine it's allowing me to play the victim on some level. A way to feel sorry for myself and have a pity party.
It's also triggering shame and abandonment issues I'm currently working to overcome.
I would also imagine it gives me a feeling of somehow being superior to her. All about unhealthy 'validation'.
I'm also sure there's a residual component of still looking for validation from her. Working on it.
I wanted to prove my rightness and I wanted to beat her up a little bit. I'd rather not have any of those desires. I'd rather just not care at all one way or the other.
Why? Once you are 'right' what do you do with that? Take the high road, dear friend, like you have so many other times. Would you rather be right or be happy? You want to hurt her like she's hurt you - you have allowed her to hurt you. Stop playing the game. You know what works for you, what takes you to your higher self.
There's nothing to do with that. Once I really saw that reality I sent the last email. The whole thing did nothing but cause damage. I believe I ended the interaction from a higher road then the one I was on. Seeing the stupidity of what was happening and just ending it - but not in a dismissive hurtful way toward her. Rather a statement of the nonsense we were involved in.
Yes I have allowed it. But I don't see a light switch to turn off the triggering. All I know is I trigger, I finally see I've triggered, I work to end the triggering. In the process the hurt has already landed.
Those desires don't just creep into your head and force you to react. You allow them.
I think the desires come of their own accord. The second part, the decision to react is the control point. I'm trying to overcome decades of negative thinking and reacting and it's taking me time. I've come a long way and still have more distance to cover.
It sounds like that whole conversation (email, text, whatever) was doomed from the start and you knew it. And in the end, you still ended up paying for your son's meds.
The request for her to pick them up was a simple one and I had no idea the reaction it was going to start. I should have ended it on her first response.
It wasn't about paying for the meds or picking them up. No matter which one of us buys them we end up paying half anyway. It was a matter of convenience. She's requested simple things like that of me and I've done them.
You could have saved many minutes of bullchit just by going there from the start. Did you really make a point with her, did she learn anything new? No, she once again was able to be a pain in the balls until she got what she wanted anyway.
In hindsight I would have just picked them up. I really didn't think about the possibility of it getting into some kind of power struggle or control issue. It was nothing but a $27 box of pills.
Nope, no point. Maybe she learned she can still trigger me..lol. But I certainly learned from it. About the requesting and more importantly about my internal position relative to where I want to be.
Quit beating yourself up, you're getting caught by her crap less and less. Learn and move on. But also consider giving my first comment up there a bit more thought. This whole 'dance' is serving some purpose in your life - and only you know what that is.....
WT
I'll give it more thought WT. And yes, I am getting caught in it less and less.
Steady
I'm not sure about separating the person from the actions. I understand it's not the totality of what she is, but it is still how she is right now toward me. I'm sure this type of behavior isn't aimed at anyone else. I'm the target. So on the one hand I know there's a person in there with a lot of good qualities, but I also realize the reality of her behavior right now.
So if I understand your response….HER actions will dictate HOW YOU feel and interact with her. Is that what Steady wants? Does Steady want to hand over the control of HIS emotions to someone right now that cannot reciprocate HIS feelings towards HER?
I'm sure of my intentions. I have no desire to teach her a lesson.
It’s funny….Wiskey posted something similar (articulated better)…”You want to hurt her like she’s hurt you”.
Your intentions with the kids are understandable. Trust me, I am in a similar battle to get a 50/50 split. As for the kids, I would not waver and it appears that you are not. Everything else…well…that where ya just want to make sure that you are not fighting to prove something. You know you have NOTHING to prove to HER.
All to try and force what she wants. All wasted money.
I hear ya….LOUD and CLEAR Buddy. The legalities of all of this are just another bump in the road. Have you accepted that she may not change NOW…However, how you choose to handle all of this will just be something that YOU can look back on and KNOW in YOUR heart that you did what you thought was right. All we can do buddy…all we can do…
My disappointment is even caring enough to get pulled into it in the first place.
This may or may not sting…but up there ^^^^ sounds like some resentment. Is that what ya want? Let me ask you a question...why should you NOT care? Can you accept that you will love her YET not be with her? Can you accept that it is okay to feel this way today and feel another way tomorrow?
Anger, the poison we drink waiting for the other person to die. Again, I don't want it.
The hardest thing about this whole process is KNOWING and ACCEPTING that everything we feel and everything we do ….we CHOOSE to. Are you ready to CHOOSE not to be angry at her? Are you ready to use the anger in a way that is constructive?
I'm not sure what I have for her anymore. If there's love it's been driven way deep inside of me. It's mostly anger.
Where there is smoke there is fire…where there is anger…there is….<you fill in the blank>
Your right deep down inside of YOU are some feelings. You are fighting them buddy, at least IMO, WHY? Pride, anger, and the whole legal chit. Don’t let these feelings drive what you do. Accept them and call them what they are. Once again…can you love something enough to really let it go, let it make its own mistakes, let it grow at it’s own pace…just let it go and with it…let the anger go. Easier said then done my friend – especially when you know that they are trying to f*ck ya. Guess what….if ya let go…you will feel better.
I am watching myself move through the process of the fighting/letting go cycle. It's not happening outside of my awareness. I'm cognitive of it.
Webster dictionary definition of process is….
a
natural phenomenon marked by
gradual changes that lead toward a particular result.
a series of actions or operations
conducing to an end; especially : a continuous operation or treatment
It is a process Steady….a process…
Now, sit back have a beer and just think about what you continue to learn about YOU from this process. It is the only thing that YOU can control.
Steady, I have read some of your post and I know that you know most of this chit. So snap out of it. Spend a little more time feeling this crap - you'll be aright and I know that you know this.
God Bless,
Eric
I feel like a big bully. Must be something I need to work on.
But you might notice, it doesn't stop me now does it?
There's nothing to do with that. Once I really saw that reality I sent the last email. The whole thing did nothing but cause damage. I believe I ended the interaction from a higher road then the one I was on. Seeing the stupidity of what was happening and just ending it - but not in a dismissive hurtful way toward her. Rather a statement of the nonsense we were involved in.
I don't see any reason to continue on about this. We have wasted enough time and energy over a $27 box of pills. I'm sure we both have better things to do than engage in a petty argument bickering back and forth between us. I'd be embarrassed to show these emails to someone - we're acting like two immature kids fighting over nonsense. It has only added to the deterioration of our already deteriorating relationship and has added nothing positive to either one of us or our children.
What I've highlighted feels like scolding to me. Talking down to her. If I've misinterpreted this, I apologize. Do I think she's goofy for playing her games? - absolutely. Try not to let her pull you down to her level. I feel like you're dealing with a bloody idiot.
Taking the higher road is tough, consider cutting this chit off at the knees rather than trying to explain yourself. You have no need to defend yourself or your actions to her.
Don't be nice to me, just be honest. If this was off base, tell me.
WT
WT, to be honest I never looked at it like scolding. If anything, I thought I was coming from a position of scolding myself in a way. I didn't feel like it was coming from a scolding stance although I did entertain the thought of just saying, "I asked for something simple, you refused, I picked up the pills, problem solved." To me, that would have been more like scolding her.
I did mean "I" when I said I'd be embarrassed to show these emails to someone and I meant exactly that. It was an immature exchange by two people who are supposed to be adults. So I'm not sure where you see it as me talking down to her when I said I would be embarrassed.
Afterward the thought crossed my mind that she probably doesn't see it as an immature exchange on both our parts. She has always had the stance of her being right and me being wrong. That was even pointed out by the Psychologist in his report.
I have to own my part of it and I really did think it was an immature exchange and quite petty from both of us. I think her refusal to pick them up was petty, spiteful, vindictive and controlling. That's what got me going - so I went into the trench to slug it out. Me going into the trench was immature.
I'd love your perspective on that. It's probably sitting in my blind spot because I definitely can't see it.
The statement - "It has only added to the deterioration of our already deteriorating relationship and has added nothing positive to either one of us or our children."
I meant it as it's literally written. This bickering back and forth, mud-slinging and all the other cr@p that has happened has deteriorated our relationship. I felt like the whole email exchange just added to that. It was nothing but a negative interaction which was destructive.
I'm not seeing the POV where what I wrote was talking down on her.
Maybe there's a disconnect because you haven't seen the email exchange.
I'll post them below.
Emails:
Me to W:<son> took his last allergy pill today and I did not see any more in the house. Can you pick him up more at CVS? I have never seen the chewable's anywhere else.
W to me:This is at least the second time in a row that you have informed me that you have used the last of <son's> pills and requested that I buy more. It is your turn to buy more, please have them in the house by 4 today.
It is also your turn to pay daycare. I paid for September. Daycare tuition is due Friday, Oct. 1. It is $450.00 and the check is to made payable to <daycare name>.
Me to W:The last time I informed you <son> only had one pill left. So yes, this is the second time I have told you <son> needed more allergy pills.
The last time I bought <son's> allergy pills I bought three boxes of them because they were on sale - you will find you have a copy of the receipt when I bought them (I believe it was on July 31 when we went to visit my sister).
CVS is right by where you work so it's easier for you pick them up. He likes the chewable tablets better than ones he has to swallow. Asking me to drive to <town 1> or <town 2>, when the <town 2> CVS is only a few minutes away from your job, appears spiteful. Let me know if you refuse to pick them up and I will get them. I don't want <son> to have to go without his medication.
If I have to pick them up they will not be there by 4:00 - I will drop them off as soon as is conveniently possible for me. If you do decide to pick them up I think it would be a great idea to buy two boxes - this way when the second box is opened up we can put them on the list to be bought. This insures we always have a spare backup.
I am also going to pick up some groceries today and drop them off at the house. I will text you when they are on the stoop. There are a few items which we have run very low on which I wasn't aware of until I went to use them this weekend.
I just purchase items for the children and the house when they are needed. For me, it's not a matter of 'taking turns'.
Please reply so I can make plans accordingly.
W to me:There is a Walgreens and a Rite Aid between our house and the grocery store. There is also a CVS in the <local> Mall.
You saw my message on the daycare being due Friday?
Me to W:I did not go to CVS over the weekend because I never realized you would actually refuse to do such a simple thing in order to get medication for <son>. It didn't make sense for me to put both kids in the car and drive them 15 minutes just to go to a CVS when it's very simple for you to go to the one by your work.
Your refusal to go to a store only a few minutes away from your work is obviously spiteful and vindictive behavior. So be it. Neither Rite Aid nor Price Chopper carry the chewable tablets as I've checked in both those stores before. I'm not sure about Walgreens as I've never checked there. There is no longer a CVS at the mall as that closed down months ago. I do know for a fact CVS carries them because that brand is the one we have been buying for months now.
I'm working overtime because I keep getting dragged into court with false allegations. Now the inconvenience is on me to have to leave work, lose the hours I need to make up, drive to Walgreens to see if they have the chewable tablets. If they don't have it I then have two choices.
1. Drive to Rite Aid and Price Chopper (in case they began carrying it since I last checked) If those stores don't have it I can drive 15 minutes to <town 2> to the CVS you basically pass on your way to pick up the kids or drive 15 minutes to the one in <town 1>.
or
2. Purchase non-chewable tablets which <son> doesn't like taking.
Either one of those two choices inconveniences someone - either <son> or I. All this because you couldn't find it in yourself to put away your anger (or whatever it is in you that's causing you to make these kinds of choices) and just simply go to a store and buy the ones he likes.
Your solution creates a mess, the one I proposed was simple and would have gotten the job done.
This is another example of you refusing to co-parent the children in a cooperative way and I'm sure anyone who looks at your refusal to do something so simple with no inconvenience to you will see it no other way. Not only that, you have decided to get into a power play over something which is for <son>. I don't want, nor do I need, to play your games and I will do what is right for <son>.
Here is the preliminary spreadsheet for October. I will be giving you a check for $230 on Wednesday to cover my portion of Daycare this month. I will text you when I put it in the mailbox so you can pick it up. As you can see there is only a minor monthly difference (11.73) and it will be credited to you, as it always is, in the ongoing outstanding balance.
(Below this was a copy/paste of the bills spreadsheet. She hates the way the bills are being paid because I have it set up that she pays enough bills to cover the difference in our pay (she makes more money than I) then I split everything else 50/50.)
W to me:First of all, whether or not <son> likes the pills or the orally dissolving tablets, a little search on the internet told me in 5 minutes Rite Aid not only carries the Alavert but also has a generic variety in both forms.
Some points-
1) <son> himself said he doesn't need the chewable ones and in fact likes the non-chewable so he can take both his pills at once.
2) So it makes more sense for me to put both kids in the car and take them to the store than for you to do it? I do it all the time and find it hard to sympathize with you. And if this is the limit of how far you will go to do what is right for <son>, taking the kids out of the house for half an hour during an entire weekend is too much to do, I seriously doubt others will agree with your conclusion.
3) Frankly, given that you chose to include so much information on finances and your tortured accounting in the same message, one might reasonably conclude that you are perhaps more concerned with laying out the $15 or $20 for the Alavert than with <son's> health and well-being.
4) As far as court goes, you have the power to reduce the amount of time you spend there. Ask your lawyer.
Almost done now Here is the first response I typed up and didn't send. It was after I wrote this response I realized how stupid this path was.
Me to W: (Never sent) I used her last email and addressed her comments point by point, so forgive the repetition. I've italicized her stuff below First of all, whether or not <son> likes the pills or the orally dissolving tablets, a little search on the internet told me in 5 minutes Rite Aid not only carries the Alavert but also has a generic variety in both forms. Good for you. I've been to Rite Aid before and did not find them.
Some points-
1) <son> himself said he doesn't need the chewable ones and in fact likes the non-chewable so he can take both his pills at once.I wonder why you didn't share that with me in any of the email or text exchanges we had today. It would have been pertinent information since I referenced the CHEWABLE pills a number of times in my emails. He either told you that tonight or he told you that at an earlier date and you decided to keep that information from me for some unknown reason.
The non-chewables have been available at every store I've been to. I would have just picked those up when I did the grocery shopping over the weekend and wouldn't have made any requests of you.
2) So it makes more sense for me to put both kids in the car and take them to the store than for you to do it? I do it all the time and find it hard to sympathize with you. Exactly where did I ask you to put both kids in the car and take them to the store? You added that. Exactly where did I ask for your sympathy? You added that.
And if this is the limit of how far you will go to do what is right for <son>, taking the kids out of the house for half an hour during an entire weekend is too much to do, I seriously doubt others will agree with your conclusion. Really? Is that the limit of how far I will go to do what is right for <son>. It seems to me I picked up the pills after you refused. Who was short on the limit there? It certainly wasn't me.
I think people will agree with the conclusion that you decided to refuse to make a simple trip to pick up a box of medication for <son> - that's a fact and it can't be disputed. I didn't refuse to do anything. I only asked if you could pick them up at CVS.
3) Frankly, given that you chose to include so much information on finances and your tortured accounting in the same message, one might reasonably conclude that you are perhaps more concerned with laying out the $15 or $20 for the Alavert than with <son's> health and well-being. Actually, I believe you asked twice about paying <daycare> in both of your emails regarding the pills - you are the one who mixed together picking up the pills with finances. I was merely answering your questions. I didn't think I needed to split them up so as not to be accused of having an issue about paying a mere $27 for pills.
Your argument makes no sense since I told you I was going to the food store to pick up groceries which I paid for from my money. I have no problem laying out the money - it really doesn't matter. If you buy them or I buy them we both pay 50% of them. So no, money was no issue at all. It was a matter of convenience and an easy solution.
Since you have now accused me of "... you are perhaps more concerned with laying out the $15 or $20 for the Alavert than with <son's> health and well-being", lets take a look at the FACTS. In your first response back to me you told me it was 'my turn' to purchase the pills, then in the same email told me it was 'my turn' to pay Ivy League - you may want to turn your accusations onto yourself because you are the one who has implied it's about the money in both your first email and then in your above accusation. I never once said anything about the cost of the pills - you did. You know about projection. That seems to be what you have done here.
I am also unaware of such 'turn taking' in all of this. Do you mean to tell me if I bought milk today, and it's finished on a day when I have the kids, I am to call you to deliver it because it would somehow be 'your turn'?
So no, a reasonable person wouldn't come to the conclusion you stated. It is actually an unreasonable conclusion with no basis in fact. It's merely based on assumptions and personal projections.
I mistakenly assumed you wouldn't have a problem with such a simple thing. Like I stated before CVS is conveniently located near you, you had time to get them, it really wasn't out of your way, it's where we usually get them from, <son> likes the flavor etc...
I'm not sure what you are referring to as tortured accounting. It was a copy/paste of the spreadsheet indicating bill payment for October. If there are other bills you are already aware of please let me know so I can include them on the sheet.
4) As far as court goes, you have the power to reduce the amount of time you spend there. Ask your lawyer.Actually I don't. When I get falsely accused and I need to defend myself I don't have any option at all except to pay my attorney to represent me in court and for me to actually show up. Your 2 attempts at getting a court order has drained us of a combined total of probably close to $20,000. Both of which were dismissed. It's no different than piling that same amount of cash in the fire pit in the backyard and lighting it on fire.
You remarked recently you believed the lawyers were draining our money, but in reality you're the one draining it by the decisions you are making. My lawyer is only doing his job, which I've retained him to do - so I don't see him as a drain on my money.
Your newest attempt at a court order will probably cost me in the area of $5,000 and I'll guess your bill will be close to that.
So that's around $30,000 and nothing has even started. Imagine what we could have done for the kids with that amount of money. I often think about that.
Based on the debt I've already absorbed, do you really think I'm concerned with paying $27 for a box of pills?
Exactly why did you refuse to you pick them up at CVS?
I know it was long. And frankly the BS is embarrassing.
I can easily see where I'm taking pot shots and even being passive aggressive in there. I can see where she's skirting the issue and attempting to turn it on me, I can see a lot of stuff from both of our sides.
lol. Not a far leap to see why we're now getting a D.
That interaction will show you where our R has deteriorated to when it comes to any conflict.
I didn't send that last response but instead sent the one I posted earlier in this thread.
The last line in the email I never sent makes me laugh. It would have been a hell of a way to close the exchange..
Wow. That's a lot of interaction. Her 'knowing' she's right and you defending your point of view.
You realize she's trying to be unreasonable, right? The living arrangement seems to be not working. You're not only trying to co-parent, but you're both occupying the same house. At different times, but still, the same house. If you both were truly living apart, this conversation wouldn't be necessary. You would have what you needed when the kids were with you and she would do whatever it is she does when they're with her.
Why didn't your son tell you he preferred the pills instead of the chewable ones? If he told her, he can tell you.
It is clear to me why you two are headed in the direction you are. She's done. She's not going to make things easy. She even said as much when you talked about all the court related issues - according to her, you know how to make it stop. Give her what she wants, until then she'll make you miserable and drain your finances. She's also got OM, so her energies are further spread out.
You're never going to be 'right' in her eyes. Nor should you try - that's circling the drain. But you are valid in your concerns. Do what is right by you and your kids. Maybe you 2 should switch from taking turns buying stuff to buying the stuff you and the kids need when you are together. That's probably unrealistic to be honest, I feel this sharing the house is making things more difficult. Is there another solution?
Her comments regarding the legal stuff bothers me, for some reason.
WT
Wow. That's a lot of interaction. Her 'knowing' she's right and you defending your point of view.
I've been dealing with this for years now WT. Of course, the first few years in the honeymoon stage was nice, but after that, her controlling and fault finding/criticism issues surfaced and my less-than/shame/passive issues came up and they mixed like gasoline and fire.
Of course this part of her personality wasn't this magnified but has increased every time I stand up and take care of myself by calling her on her shite and drawing/enforcing boundaries. The past two and a half years has been unbelievable.
I know she's doesn't treat other people like this and it's all aimed at me. I think this example shows how petty she's getting. The conflict above is the same basic blueprint of all the conflicts we had in our M.
You can imagine by reading her stuff up there how even the smallest thing was blown way out of proportion, then if I called her on it and showed her side of the dysfunction it would get twisted and turned around back on me. If I held my point she would inevitably say, "I'm done with this", and turn and walk away - dismissive. How I hated that! The psychologist who did the forensic analysis said it is one of the most disrespectful things you can do to someone.
The scary part is I watch her mother do it to her father all the time. And my W can't see she inherited all that cr@p from her mom no matter how many people point it out - including the psychologist, our first MC, second MC, me.
There I am still defending and explaining myself when it's her who was being so spiteful and vindictive about a box of pills.
You realize she's trying to be unreasonable, right?
I know she is. She's being unreasonable in basically every area concerning me.
The living arrangement seems to be not working. You're not only trying to co-parent, but you're both occupying the same house. At different times, but still, the same house. If you both were truly living apart, this conversation wouldn't be necessary. You would have what you needed when the kids were with you and she would do whatever it is she does when they're with her.
This is the first time, besides the bill paying, where something like this has even become an issue. When I get the house I usually scan for what we need then just go and pick it up. Sometimes she has a list going sometimes not.
I always run a list when things are done or low. Sometimes I even text her the list before she comes into the house on her weekends.
Why didn't your son tell you he preferred the pills instead of the chewable ones? If he told her, he can tell you.
I think he may have said it to her that night - she basically interrogates the kids when she gets them. He may have told her at an earlier date. He's 7 so it's not something he's going to press. He may have mentioned it to her but I give him one of those every morning and he's never mentioned it to me.
The bigger thing for me is if she knew, why didn't she tell me when this back and forth started? Like I wrote in the email I didn't send. She'll withhold stuff like that to make it harder on me.
It is clear to me why you two are headed in the direction you are. She's done.
You know, the "she's done" still stings a little. Do you really think she is? LMAO Now imagine me living with this woman and she can't understand why I drifted away over the years. I got tired of being hammered and criticized on a weekly basis. I often said to her - "Can't we go more than a week or two without you having to find some criticism or some fault about what I do?"
Granted, I know I had my part in the whole thing. I'm working on those issues.
She's not going to make things easy. She even said as much when you talked about all the court related issues - according to her, you know how to make it stop. Give her what she wants, until then she'll make you miserable and drain your finances.
Yup. She's all about the misery. The sad thing is she gets her energy out of exchanges like the email one. It's the victim role just like her mom. I gave her fuel to run for a while longer. I think that's why she always stirred up some drama every few weeks. I really believe it's what gives her a sense of identity. That every few week cycle has persisted even after we separated. It's been about a week or two with no waves and then this drama about the pills gets stirred up by her.
She's also got OM, so her energies are further spread out.
Not sure why this is a factor.
You're never going to be 'right' in her eyes. Nor should you try - that's circling the drain.
That's another thing which was pointed out by the psychologist. She has a POV of her doing no wrong and me doing no right. He nailed it. It's coupled with the fault finding/criticism issues she's carrying around. I understand it's a mechanism to protect herself from people seeing her 'faults' but the irony is it doesn't hide anything from anyone but herself.
He also wrote in his report she will have a hard time and made it difficult to co-parent because of these issues. He even recommended we go to counseling to work on those things in order to make co-parenting smoother. Without a court order what are the odds of her actually volunteering to do that? lol
That's one of the things I realized at the end of the email exchange. I'm sitting here defending myself and explaining to a person who is out of touch with reality. Someone who is so unreasonable and won't even own the simple fact her decision was made out of spite. She never did give a reason except it being 'my turn'.
My response to defend and explain is something I'm working on with the NMMNG stuff. Of course it takes time to pull it out.
But you are valid in your concerns. Do what is right by you and your kids. Maybe you 2 should switch from taking turns buying stuff to buying the stuff you and the kids need when you are together. That's probably unrealistic to be honest, I feel this sharing the house is making things more difficult. Is there another solution?
It has worked pretty well up until this one. The pressure is mounting and her stress level is sky-rocketing. After she told me she wanted a D in Jan 2008 she figured I'd be out of the house in 60 days, she would have the house and the kids and I'd be paying her child support.
Every move she has made to force what she wants has backfired on her. When she closed our joint account and tried to force me to pay the bills her way, I 'forced' her to put her name on all the house bills which were in my name only. I told her if she didn't do that I'd just cancel the services.
Now I control what bills each of us pay and I first have her pay the difference in our salary (she makes more than I do) and after that I split everything for house and kids 50/50. She absolutely hates this arrangement. She wants to split them according to our income ratio and I refused. That would leave me with no money at the end of each month. I told her if that was the agreement when we married I never would have had the bills we have because there's no way I'd live being broke every month. The way I have it set up is the same way we've always paid bills.
In the beginning of the month I drop off a spreadsheet outlining that month's payments and it always kicks her off into some kind of drama with me.
Her attempt to control the money backfired and I ended up in the position of controlling it. Her two attempts at getting an Order of Protection went nowhere. Her attempt to show my son has severe problems with the living arrangement was basically shot down when he did excellent in school, his psychiatrist said he was improving, his meds got cut back. I just talked to his current teacher and he actually said my son was the 'rock' in the classroom - just steady. Only issue is some daydreaming but he comes right back when prompted.
I spoke to his group therapist yesterday and she said he's doing great. Said he's improved so much in the past 8 months. His patience level is way up and he spent yesterday's session helping one of the kids who was having a hard time.
Now she's focusing on trying to 'prove' my daughter is having a hard time.
Got this email two days ago:
W to me:I am concerned about <daughter's> ability to cope with her life situation and would like for her to have someone to talk to, just like <son> already has. I spoke to Ann Marie at <son's group therapist> and she said <son's group therapist> is not able to assist <daughter> at this time due to scheduling and <daughter's> age.
I found a play therapist with a good reputation that used to work with <son's group therapist>. <son's group therapist> confirmed that she is good. Her name is <name> and she has an office at <address>. She is able to see <daughter> and said she feels confident that she can help <daughter> through this rough period.
As this is a matter concerning <daughter's> health and well-being, I am seeking your input and would like to know if you have any objections to this plan.
Talked to my L about it and this is what I sent back:
Me to W:I have a few problems with it. I think you should have spoken to me first before you took any action at all. I also think you should have not consulted with the therapist without me having the opportunity to be present. I have asked you in the past not to make unilateral decisions regarding our children. I would appreciate it if you respected that.
I have sent a message in to my lawyer and am awaiting his response. Until then I expect you not to take any further action as this is a co-parenting issue involving both of us.
Her comments regarding the legal stuff bothers me, for some reason.WT
Any elaboration on this? She has acted as if she has some entitlement for what she wants. In the past she would be in disbelief when she told me to leave a number of times and I refused to move out of the house and leave my kids. It was like she had a POV as if it should just be done because she said it.
It's obvious to me she is trying to get my D into a therapy situation so she can say my D is now in therapy because of the arrangements we have. Our court date is on October 12 and she asked me in a separate email if I got her email concerning this issue. She went on to say the therapist needs an answer ASAP. So here's the big rush and push by her.
Obviously legal maneuving and not a real concern about our D. Our D is doing just fine. She had some separation anxiety since July but it's not bad at all. After a few minutes she's fine. She's a happy joyful 4 year old with typical 4 year old behaviors.
The psychologist even commented in his report based on a recording my W sent in to try to 'nail' me that my W is willing to use the kids as pawns.
It's a sad situation.
From Susan Campbell:
To really meet another person, to experience true intimacy, you must enter a realm of uncertainty together.
You are most lovable when you are most transparent.
You can only be honest about yourself.
You can only be as honest as you are self-aware.
Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to hide.
Basing our self-esteem on the ability to control people and events actually keeps us feeling out of control.
Withholding feelings is a way of giving them more significance than they actually deserve.
By placing more value on staying out of trouble than on speaking your mind, you keep yourself at the mercy of your environment.
A complaint is a want in disguise.
When you identify yourself as the noticer, you do not identify the ego’s pain as your pain. It’s simply a pain in the ego.
We often need to get our buttons pushed so we can notice what they are.
“Shoulds” prevent us from seeing how our life really is--and from taking appropriate action. Shoulds are pretenses.
When you act like you can’t handle the unexpected, your ability to do so dwindles.
Get comfortable with discomfort.
Fear is simply a sign that you’re moving into unknown territory, not a signal to turn back.
It takes more than one blind man to “see” the whole elephant.
All attempts at controlling others eventually backfire. (one of my favorite truisms)
Through learning to notice your mind chatter or self-talk, you always have a way of getting back into present time.
Being honest is the best way to stay connected to others, to your own flow, and to the constantly changing movement of Life.
When you are open to experiencing and learning from everything--every disappointment, every surprise, every piece of feedback, whether laudatory or critical--then you cannot be threatened.
When you blame another person for your pain, it clouds the truth and makes corrective action less likely.
Life becomes a painful battle when you struggle against what is.
The belief that knowing is better than not knowing is one of the fundamental dysfunctional beliefs of our culture.
Every human interaction entails a large measure of uncertainty. Each time you express yourself, you take a step into the unknown, into “empty space.”
Leap joyfully into the unknown.
There may be times when honest self-expression would be truly dangerous to your well-being, but more often than not, most people assume danger where none exists.
Spiritual freedom comes from participating in the moment-by-moment flow of life, not by getting things to be just right once and for all.
Telling the truth speeds up evolution.
Hey Steady.
Was just reading that one myself.
Thanks for the "Coles Notes"
Sitch is still the same. Working on the D stuff. The court date for oral arguments to her Pendente Lite motion is November 8.
Two weeks ago I saw her on a Sat at my son's psychiatrist appointment. She started in with me and I completely ignored her and walked away. This email I sent her explains it all - I really don't feel like typing it again.
After the meeting with S's psychiatrist we went to my vehicle with the kids. As we were walking to your vehicle you started complaining to me about how I handled coming to S's appointment. You said, "Why did you say a number of times you would see the kids on Monday and then just show up here unannounced?" I decided to ignore this statement and continued walking toward your vehicle with our children walking in front of me and you walking behind me. You continued to talk but I did not pay attention to what you were saying.
When we got to your vehicle and you opened the back hatch you said, "That was a really bright move. Really good going." Again, I chose to ignore that statement and continue interacting with our children and putting D into the car. Both children were saying 'I want to be with you Daddy' a number of times. This is nothing new and happens any time we are in a situation where one of us is leaving our children. When I said goodbye to our children I then started walking to my car. You followed behind me and began talking again. As I recall you said, "I had a whole plan to keep this very thing from happening and you ruined it..." (I'm assuming you were talking about D fussing about me leaving) There were other things you said but I did not pay attention to them. Rather, while still walking away, I said, "I can't hear you. I think you're talking about D fussing but that only lasts a minute or two and I can't hear her still doing it so it must already be done." I then got into my car and drove away.
Your statement you made about 'a really bright move' was a disparaging remark made in front of both S and D. I understand you said it in a lower than normal tone but it's inappropriate to say in front of our children.
On Sunday I walked into Office Depot and saw you and D standing by the copy center. I walked toward the ink aisle and D saw me. I decided to walk over to the two of you. After a brief encounter I went to get the ink I came there for and D came with me. You decided it was time to leave and came over to get D who was in my arms at this point. I handed her over to you as D was fussing and saying she wanted to stay with me. I told her I was going to work and said she would be bored there. As I handed her to you I said, "She's fine. It's part of life." I turned to walk away and heard you say, "This didn't have to happen if you learned how to control yourself." I ignored your statement and walked over to the register to pay.
At 12:09 I sent you the following text: "I can control myself perfectly fine. You seem unable to control your need to criticize me in front of the kids. Two days in a row. It needs to stop."
At 12:10 You responded - "Learn some boundaries."
At 12:13 I sent - "And what boundary is that?"
(After 10 minutes of you not responding)
At 12:23 I sent - "Baseless criticism with nothing to back it up"
You saying, 'This wouldn't have happened if you learned how to control yourself" is another disparaging remark made in front of D where she clearly heard you. This is two consecutive interactions where you felt the need to express your dissatisfaction with me not doing things as you think they should be done and did not control yourself from saying derogatory things about me in front of our children. What D needs to hear in that situation is she is fine and it is a part of life. Physical swaps and all kinds of separation situations will be unavoidable and they will be part of her life. Rather than trying to shield her from it, I think it's more prudent to teach her how to go through it in a healthy way. What she doesn't need to hear from either one of us is a statement like the one you made.
On both occasions I chose to ignore you rather than engage in an argument which is not healthy for our children or either one of us. There are better ways for us to get rid of any underlying anger, bitterness and resentment we may have toward each other. I would be willing to pursue any avenue which would make that possible. It would make our relationship softer and less abrasive, help with co-parenting and avoid any negative effects on our children. That's a goal I would like to reach.
I understand walking away from you is a rude and I myself don't like to be dismissed (as you already know). It is a better choice than the alternative which is to get into an argument with you in front of the kids (I'd rather not argue with you at all whether the children are there or not. Having a discussion about a disagreement is what I would rather have). I am working toward the point where I can stand there and listen to your complaint, or whatever you have to say, and then decide if I need to engage you in conversation or excuse myself. I'm sure I will be at that point soon. I've been working through therapy and my own self-work to remove the triggers which cause the defending and explaining which lead to arguing from my end. I don't want to teach our children to rudely dismiss people but would rather them have the ability to stand with balance and decide to engage or not. They will model our actions regardless of what we say, so the only way I know of teaching them this is for me to be able to do it. I feel this is one of many healthy traits to teach them.
Since you didn't tell me what boundary you think I crossed I can only guess it was your expectation I should not have come over to D in the store. I will never run away or hide from our children or ignore them when I see them in a public place or at any time/place for that matter - especially if they see me as D did. If you have an expectation that should happen, it's an expectation I won't fulfill. A boundary must be clear and stated to the other party in order for it to be a boundary. You did not state any expected boundary to me so it's impossible for me to judge if it is acceptable to me. Not expressing it to me is opposite of what a boundary is - instead it is a covert contract. Not expressing our expectations had been a big problem in our marriage from both our parts and I don't want to continue having it in my life. I'm only guessing at what I think the boundary you referred to is. If I am incorrect, please let me know.
As far as your remarks made on Saturday about me just 'showing up unannounced' I have the right to be at any doctor appointment scheduled for S and D. I also do not have to do things the way you think they should be done. I will often do things against your expectations - especially if I find your expectations unreasonable or you never express them to me. (I have zero ability to read minds)
I would like any criticism we may have about each other be expressed in private away from our children, or better yet, in a text or email. This will save all of us unnecessary aggravation and stress.
My goal is to have a smoother co-parenting relationship between us which has minimal conflict and no conflict when the kids are present. I think with some adjustments and a little bit of work on both our parts we can attain that.
9 days later she files a police report that I was stalking her. This woman is nuts. So she manages to slip a reference in an unrelated email exchange:
From my W to me:
Your response is confusing considering on Friday night (9/29) you texted and stated in a voice text "See you Monday" to D and then proceeded to surprise all of us by showing up at a doctor's appointment for S the next morning. Not only did you show up unannounced when the kids were to be mine for the weekend according to our current arrangement, but you showed up again at D's therapy the next morning. While it was still my time with the kids, one hour after her therapy you followed us into the mall and surprised us again. You have shown total disregard for our arrangement resulting in unnecessary pain for all of us.
(there was more to the email but I cut it out. My beginning stuff addresses the fact she decided to take my D to therapy on a day when I had both kids in the evening. Usually whoever has them in the evening takes them to their appointments)
So I responded:
Ok I'm a little lost here. I never said either of us couldn't attend any of the kids' appointments. Just who was responsible for taking them where. Of course we can both attend any of their doctor's appointments whenever we want. Neither one of us needs permission from the other to do that - regardless of whose time it is with the kids.
I just see it would be the same thing as me telling you I would be picking up S and taking him to group on a Tuesday you normally would take him. You would then meet me there to pick him up. I think such a move would surprise you and have you ask me why I would be doing that since it was different than the norm. The whole setup you were arranging did not make any sense to me and is completely opposite of how we handle S's appointments.
I know you have a problem with the 'unannounced' but I have no problem you coming to any of their appointments when I have them without having to announce yourself to me. That's your choice. I don't hold the same perspective about the children having to know everything in their future. Life just doesn't operate that way. There will be plenty of times in their life when they will see either one of us without having been prepped first.
I showed up at D's therapy the next morning because I can. I'm not sure why this is a problem for you. We both have the same rights to be at any of their appointments whenever we choose.
You said, "You have shown total disregard for our arrangement resulting in unnecessary pain for all of us." - I haven't shown any disregard for our arrangement. We have already agreed either one of us can come to any appointment, school function, etc our children have. So that part of your statement is not true. I'm not sure how it resulted in any unnecessary pain - that seems like a large over-dramatization of reality. Seeing me is not painful for my kids - quite the contrary. Transitioning is not painful for them - just a small blip on their radar which they quickly get over. I don't think the transitioning bothers S in the least so it's D who has a reaction - and quite a bit of it is behavioral. It's also reducing as time goes by and I'm sure with a little more time it will disappear altogether. She's at an age where children revisit separation anxiety - it just happens to correspond with a time in her life where she is having to make transitions opposite of what her real desire is.
Sorry W, but there was no 'following' you into the mall. After D's appointment I went to my brother's house and got ready to go to work. I grabbed printer ink I bought the day before which was the wrong one and told <brother> I'd be picking up the right one and bringing it back with me after I finished working.
I am allowed to enter into any public place I see fit. I saw your vehicle outside of the mall when I pulled up at Office Depot. I even sent you a text asking if you were there picking up a charm for D as was discussed in D's C office. If you were, I was going to get one also so D would have had them both.
I know you want to frame it that I'm somehow following you around, but my life is a lot more important and valuable than thinking about what you're doing. According to your logic I must have known on Saturday that you were going to be in Office Depot on Sunday. So I went there and purchased the wrong ink so I could then have a reason to go to Office Depot on Sunday. Then when I went back to B's to get my stuff for work, I must have known you would be at Office Depot and timed it perfectly to arrive there minutes before you were finishing up.
Desiring to know your whereabouts or what you're doing doesn't even enter my radar W. I don't think you realize where I'm at in relation to you, but I can assure you it is light years away from anything having to do with you. The only part of my life which is somehow connected to you is my desire and willingness to co-parent our children as effectively as possible and doing it in a way which will make it a positive experience for them. That's it - nothing more. Your life is yours and has nothing to do with me (except co-parenting our children) - it's what we both prefer so it works out perfectly.
I know the last two posts are long and winded but a lot of it is documentation I need to do because of the court situation. Some of it is defending and going into detail and once the court stuff is over the defending and detail are going to disappear. Much of the defending has already disappeared and I basically tell her - this is how I did it and if you don't like it that's fine, but according to my standard, I did it fine. I'll agree to disagree.
I'm also at the point where I don't even want to argue with her or entertain her criticism of me. I still bite the bait a little bit here and there, but I've walked away from a lot more than I have in the past.
It's a new boundary for me - don't need to defend nor explain my decisions unless I choose to. This doesn't mean I won't explain important decisions regarding my kids but the critical nitpicking is what I'm done with.
The other day she sent me an email:
"Why did S wear shorts to school on Tue?" <--- This is so passive aggressive and a totally dysfunctional way of communicating I let it go and didn't even bother responding.
I think that's long enough posts for today. Brings it up to speed a bit.
**** I'm definitely not happy they don't allow us to edit our posts anymore.
Wow, Steady!
I am certainly impressed with your strength, buddy.
I can honestly say I am noweher near the point where I could handle that much CB with such detachment.
I'll try to catch up with you this week.
Hi CD. I'm not familiar with CB? What does it stand for? Constant Bull&*it?
Got more of it today regarding how we are paying the bills. My response was all business. I've gotten used to it now and it doesn't even get my temperature up at all. I just deal with it if I have to otherwise I just ignore it.
Every week there's some drama. Same as when we were married. She probably spent the weekend with OM and got all pumped up. Who knows.
Hope you a had a good time in NC. Maybe you can shoot me an email about it.
Hey, Steady!!
You are close enough. CB is an old RobX expression for Crap Behaviour.
I'll contact you later and offer you a better alternative than email, my friend.
NC was awesome! You'll be there next time.