I've been posting about my stich for the past four weeks.
my thread "Longtime coming...Today I went to an al-anon meeting in the morning, and W said she was going to spend the morning/afternoon with a classmate. We are meeting around 4pm to have dinner with D17 for her belated birthday and shopping.
When I got home from Al-anon, I discovered that she had used my computer to copy the tax records and my business records, burn them to CD, and access a file with our names and the word legal in it. That file is gone. She had tried to hide what she had done by moving the copied files into the trash, but had forgotten to clear the history in the word processor and adobe pdf reader. From the timestamps, she did all this while was gone at al-anon this morning. I'm lucky, I accidentally deleted a file and went to get it out of the trash and saw what she had been up to.
She is leaving tuesday morning for her parents for thanksgiving, so I'm presuming she would try to serve me before she leaves town.
I'm really mad now! I'm supposed to go shopping with her in a few hours.
How should I handle this?!?!?! Just wait till she does something, or should tell her I know what is going on? Maybe she is just protecting herself, but trying to hide it make me thinks she is hoping to surprise me with it.
Help!
Well, if YOU were going to serve HER, would you warn her ahead of time?
There's a reason that put that little "v" in between the two parties' names -- it's an adversarial situation, sadly.
Just use the opportunity to prepare yourself, emotionally and legally. And you're going shopping this afternoon for your daughter, not for your WIFE -- that hasn't changed.
Puppy
Yes, it's for my daughter. Sitting through dinner with W while knowing this will be tough, but I can do it. This is just happening faster than I thought; I was just getting a little grip on my roller coaster emotions (I slept a little more last night), and then pow! something else.
Awoken, I know you've been focusing on alanon and your W's drinking problem. Have you hired an L yet or seen one? If not, I think it is time for you to start interviewing L's until you find one that is a good choice for you. I think a really great book on divorce re: legal aspects is the nolo guide on divorce. I've been reading through that (recommended by lodo) and it is excellent.
I think you should still attend alanon when you can fit in it as a good support system for you. You had mentioned a men's meeting and that would prob. be good I would think.
Normally, I would advise you to cancel plans to shop and eat with your W, but I wouldn't do that in your case b/c it is for your D's birthday. I would go and focus on your D and basically try to ignore your W. I would not get into any R talks or legal talks or any kind of talks as that would be a shame and hurt your D's birthday celebration. Not good to get into anyway.
Hire an L and then have all legal discussions ended by you telling your W, that your attorney will handle that. If she is planning on legal plans, then I think you will need to go dark as much as possible. Since her drinking is a problem, then I think you can/should discuss with your L, the legal aspects of her moving out then if she is filing for D, in the best interest of your children (and you).
I just discovered that W took all the cash (about $1500-2000) from the cash drawer. We've been using it to pay for MC. I simply didn't think she was up to this yet, and I feel so foolish.
So I get it, tonight is about D17, but am I really not supposed to say ANYTHING about this between now and when W either leaves town and/or serves me with papers?
I'm don't trust myself at all, and my thoughts are all over the place! I just see W pushing my buttons and this all exploding one me. I can't believe she is doing this, and that I've STILL been trusting her. I think i've still had a small glimmer of hope that she would come to her senses, even though I've been trying to get away from it. I just thought the way things were, that she would be doing at the soonest before xmas. i feel so foolish and played.
I did see a lawyer a week after the bomb; and I called a little while ago and left a message.
Unless she has already seen an attny. and has had things prepared and the attny was just waiting on these documents it is unlikely you will be served by Tues.
I know all states work in a different way but here once you see an attny and file it can take up to 14 days to get served.
I wouldn't say anything until you either get served or she brings it up. If she brings it up do NOT react and let her know you will be retaining your own counsel and any further legal discussion can take place between the attny's.
It does no good to speculate but if she is going home to see her family perhaps she is just bringing all those doc's with her to show a trusted family member to get some help sorting things out. Does she have a close friend or family member where she is going on her trip that is an attny?
Who knows why she copied all those docs. No legal talk though until you get served and retain counsel.
Sparkle and shine tonight when you are out with W and daughter - be awesome for your daughter and show your W what she is walking away from.
I know many people think I am crazy for taking this stance but I personally think when you get served you have some power. It allows you to see the attny/firm she hired and do some research and find out what attnys/firms have a good track record against her counsel. That is what I did and it worked like a charm. Most of that info can be found via public record through the court house or county clerk (or whatever the officials of family court are called in your state).
Enjoy your daughter tonight!
Thanks Citygirl;
I've read the similar advice in other threads, and yet it still really helps to have someone say directly it to me. "Sparkle and Shine" I like.
I don't think any of her friends or family are attorneys there in Seattle, but her family likely has one. I'm a little worried because I now feeling like her family is aiding in this, and has a lot of money. I am basically on my own financially.
ok, 14 days to get served. It actually helps to think that she's not just about to do it and I have more time to prepare emotionally/legally for it. And you're right, who knows why she is doing this!
I'm used to talking to W everyday, and now this forum is really helping me. thank you.
If that amount of cash (joint marital property) is missing, then all bets are off. You need to ask her why she took the money. If she says she didn't, then call the police, and your homeowners insurance company. Let an insurance fraud investigator talk to your wife.
Puppy
Smells like a retainer fee to me *just sayin*
W ended up giving D17 the choice of who to shop with. That seemed inappropriate to me; D17 does NOT need to be in the middle of this! D17 still choose to go with me, since she had gone with mom before.
I had a GREAT time shopping with D17, and she did too!
and dinner was ok too, but the end was a disaster, and I think screwed it up pretty bad.
When the bill showed up, I asked W if she had any cash, and I said that all the cash was missing. The words were out of my mouth before I could stop them! It had been a successful hour and 1/2 up til then. W says she is angry because her laptop won't connect to home network anymore and assumes that I've disabled it (not true!). That's why she took the money. I managed to calmly say ok, and then asked the kids to go outside real quick while we pay the bill.
I then told her that taking the money is not acceptable to me. I understand her complaints. She is the one that wants out of the M, and I am taking care of myself and preparing for what she ultimately is asking for. Furthermore, she should fix her own computer, the very one she hides from me and does not want me to touch. I'm done laying down.
She once more launched with how only now I wanted to be part of the family. I once more said I understood what she was saying. She said that I had forced her into the guest room. I said, I am sleeping in the masterbedroom, you choose to leave on your own.
I said I want to work this out, but this can't continue. That's my choice. you can take it or leave it. Then I got up and left.
Came out smiling, and took D17 shopping.
Still, I wish I had kept my mouth shut. I should've done this later, and planned what I was gonna say.
When we got home (after 3+ hours shopping), W was in basement steaming mad. she fixed her computer herself and says I put the money back, and I don't want to talk to you!!@#!
I haven't checked on the money yet; I'm trying to keep the house quite for kids.
How much worse have I made the sitch now?
How much worse have I made the sitch now?
In my opinion, none. Your W is suffering from untreated alcoholism, BPD, and a possible OM, oh, yeah, and stole money (half of which is legally yours). You asking her about the theft, who gives a rip? I just thought you should not say anything b/c it was your D's day, and took the focus off that, and not good for your kids. I do think you should try not to have any discussions like that in front of the kids, but it prob. was almost inevitable with you having no cool-off time. That's why I suggested earlier if it hadn't been your D's birthday celebration, I would advise you not to go.
My first couple months here I did stuff like that too. You're in a rough, stressful situation, so just move on and try to learn from your mistakes. Take it as a learning experience.
Thanks Karen,
I do think D17 was unfazed. We had a GREAT time together shopping.
At this point she knows so much. Another mistake was that W had a gin and tonic, and I should never talk to her when she been drinking even a little.
It helps the hear that you did stuff like tht too early on; I can't believe it's only been 4 weeks;
I actually think you handled the conversation as well as you could. But yeah, anytime she's drinking, prob. not much point.
Well, I checked and she did put most of the money back. I'm assuming that if she saw a lawyer he told her not to take the money. Or, she is seeing about to see a lawyer.
Surprisingly she appears to still be in the basement, and not drinking herself to sleep again. Maybe she's online with the lawyer now!
Surprisingly she appears to still be in the basement, and not drinking herself to sleep again. Maybe she's online with the lawyer now!
Yeah, those high-end divorce lawyers are always up late at nite, chatting with potential clients on AIM and Facebook, don'tchaknow.
Puppy
Surprisingly she appears to still be in the basement, and not drinking herself to sleep again. Maybe she's online with the lawyer now!
Yeah, those high-end divorce lawyers are always up late at nite, chatting with potential clients on AIM and Facebook, don'tchaknow.
Puppy
I meant it as a joke too; I should have added a smiley!
W told me this morning that she did see a lawyer, and she'll decide what she's gonna do over the thanksgiving break.
She's not happy I separated our finances. She canceled her IC with MC on Monday, and said we should schedule a meeting with MC together (presumably to work out D) when she gets back from trip. I said "I'll have to think about that".
Then I allowed it to turn into an R talk; I should have just walked away! This sucks. She says she's really really angry that I'm been making these changes in myself these past four weeks. She's never wanted to be married all these years, and never brought up any concerns because it would just lead to this. This is script, right?
Then I said, that what ever happened, things would have to be very different. It's not acceptable to me for you to put the kids in the middle by talking about me to D17, or having the kids move your stuff out of the room. She protested, and I said D17 told me she told you it wasn't cool. (silence from W).
I then said I'm worried about your drinking and how it effects the family. She says I'm drinking less, and I say I know you are drinking more. (silence)
Then is it just a coincidence that you created your plan to leave the family right after you quit your meds? She says I can make decisions on my own. and I said, our agreement has always been to discuss your medicines together so this is something else you have done on your own outside the M. My reactions have been to take care of the family.
I walked outside to get away(in the rain).
I talked too long. It's hard, because I need to be home with my kids and yet avoid her as much as possible. I don't want to just hide in my room;
W told me this morning that she did see a lawyer, and she'll decide what she's gonna do over the thanksgiving break.
You need to see your L too, and make some decisions as well.
She's not happy I separated our finances.
To me, that's a good sign that you did the right thing. If she didn't have plans to raid your finances, it wouldn't bother her. She proved she was untrustworthy already by stealing from you this week. You have nothing to explain or defend about this; it was the right thing to do for you and your family.
She canceled her IC with MC on Monday, and said we should schedule a meeting with MC together (presumably to work out D) when she gets back from trip. I said "I'll have to think about that".
I would clarify that. If the MC is to work on your marriage, which is what that's usually intended for, then go. If it's to work on D, then I wouldn't bother.
Then I allowed it to turn into an R talk; I should have just walked away!
Right, walk away!
This sucks. She says she's really really angry that I'm been making these changes in myself these past four weeks. She's never wanted to be married all these years, and never brought up any concerns because it would just lead to this. This is script, right?
Completely script.
In my opinion, it's time for you to get tough. Consult with your L first, but I would def. discuss your wife's BPD & current active alcoholism. I've been reading the nolo guide to divorce this week, and just yesterday read about that. They suggest that if you have a current substance abuse problem most likely you, not your W, will receive primary custody of your children. Your W will have limited visitation, most likely have to be supervised visitation, and if they use drugs or alcohol in the children's presence, visitation may be discontinued.
I do not think your W is aware of how D will affect her life. I'm betting that she didn't even mention her drinking problems and unmedicated BPD condition to her L.
My opinion is this is far from over. Getting tough with your W may be the best thing for her at this point. Facing reality and consequences and all that. I would talk to your L about what you can do about getting primary custody and all the other recommended limited, supervised visitation for your W. I honestly think that will be the best at this point for you and your children.
If at some point your W is willing and receives treatment for her BPD and alcoholism; then you can work on reconciling at that point if you're interested. At this point, I would focus on your children though.
Karen,
thanks yet again. I called my lawyer on saturday, but of course haven't heard back yet.
To be honest, I'm also worried that "losing mom" will devastate the kids. It's gonna be very hard. I know what you are saying to do is the RIGHT THING, yet it feels unsure to me still. I'm so divided;
I can't do anything today. Tomorrow I'll see MC for IC, and hopefully talk to my lawyer.
Then I said, that what ever happened, things would have to be very different. It's not acceptable to me for you to put the kids in the middle by talking about me to D17, or having the kids move your stuff out of the room. She protested, and I said D17 told me she told you it wasn't cool.
So, you told her it wasn't acceptable to put your daughter in the middle, by telling her that your daughter told you that it wasn't cool? (thereby putting her in the middle) ????
Other than pointing that out, Awoken, I'm in complete agreement with what Karen posted. Your wife seems to be calling all the shots here, which is NEVER a healthy balance of power in a relationship, but considering all of her serious issues right now, is triply troubling to me. When my wife threatened me with divorce for the one-too-many'th time, I went ahead and filed myself, first, which dramatically changed the dynamic.
Puppy
So, you told her it wasn't acceptable to put your daughter in the middle, by telling her that your daughter told you that it wasn't cool? (thereby putting her in the middle) ????
wow; thanks for this 2x4. I really needed it. I made a big mistake, and it's why I need to stop really get a grip and limit all conversation with my W.
Other than pointing that out, Awoken, I'm in complete agreement with what Karen posted. Your wife seems to be calling all the shots here, which is NEVER a healthy balance of power in a relationship, but considering all of her serious issues right now, is triply troubling to me. When my wife threatened me with divorce for the one-too-many'th time, I went ahead and filed myself, first, which dramatically changed the dynamic.
Puppy
I do feel powerless. Although she is ticked off that I moved back into the master bedroom, that I separated our finances, that I've been making changes (too late she says). Most of these were at your urging, so thanks yet again. I read every word you type me; many times over.
I'm off this morning for IC with MC, then hopefully talk to my lawyer. Last night after everyone was asleep, I counted the cash W returned. Looks like a little over $1000 is still missing; just as well. W snapped at S13 last night, and he threw a small fit throwing some things in his room but quickly calmed down and started facebooking. I checked my facebook just to see how he listed his status (he knows we check). I hardly use FB, and use it mainly for kids. I discovered that I am no longer "married" to W on FB. sigh, of course she's long gone. Little things keep surprising me.
The more I think about it, she only told me she had seen a lawyer, but not when. I think it's very possible she went weeks ago, and she still might serve me today.
I'm off this morning for IC with MC, then hopefully talk to my lawyer. Last night after everyone was asleep, I counted the cash W returned. Looks like a little over $1000 is still missing; just as well. W snapped at S13 last night, and he threw a small fit throwing some things in his room but quickly calmed down and started facebooking. I checked my facebook just to see how he listed his status (he knows we check). I hardly use FB, and use it mainly for kids. I discovered that I am no longer "married" to W on FB. sigh, of course she's long gone. Little things keep surprising me.
The more I think about it, she only told me she had seen a lawyer, but not when. I think it's very possible she went weeks ago, and she still might serve me today.
"Just as well"???
Awoken,
You may want to remind your wife thusly:
"Wife, I counted the cash that you returned, and it would appear that there is $1,000 unaccounted for. You DO realize that every dollar of our lives is going to have to be fully disclosed in a detailed financial affadavit as part of any legal proceeding, right?"
I think your efforts might be better focused on protecting your family's assets, than on checking the two lovebirds' Facebook pages.
Just sayin'.
Puppy
"Just as well"???
Awoken,
You may want to remind your wife thusly:
"Wife, I counted the cash that you returned, and it would appear that there is $1,000 unaccounted for. You DO realize that every dollar of our lives is going to have to be fully disclosed in a detailed financial affadavit as part of any legal proceeding, right?"
Puppy
ok; she knows I can't prove the amount of cash. But I need to stop acting out of fear. I should have just checked it right when she told me she had returned it. I am acting powerless like you said. She'll be home this evening and I can revisit it.
I think your efforts might be better focused on protecting your family's assets, than on checking the two lovebirds' Facebook pages.
Just sayin'.
Puppy
I get you. I haven't looked at W's page in a while or even this time, and have just put it out of my mind. This was just my page and S13. I assume by lovebirds you mean OM. I don't even know if OM is on facebook.
Honestly my mind IS all over the place, and I have been journaling some of this stuff here just to try to get my problem thoughts OUT of the way. I'm trying to detach.
Maybe even posting it is distracting me? I took two days away from the boards and had the worse days. That could be coincidence.
You need to do no actions out of fear. Just do the right thing in each case as you've generally been doing. I agree with everything Puppy has said to you. Think tough love, in fact I read a book Love must be tough which I kind of liked, the theories behind it and 90% of it, but only recommend that if you are religious as it is very much so.
You need to focus on yourself and your kids. Support here is good and I think you should keep up the alanon, esp. if you can find a good meeting where you like the people. IC is a good thing if you have a good counselor.
Detaching. There are many good posts on that here in this section. There is a wonderful post on detachment which may be a couple pages back, but has tons of good advice on it. The things which have helped me most are: time, focusing on me and the kids & not worrying about the reactions or actions of the WAS, and GALing. What kind of GALing are you doing?
I know you are worried about getting served, and it's not a good thing to go through, but things get better after that. Divorces do not happen instantly, mine is going to be about 18 months, so you have time. I also think things are not going to go well for your W if she continues this. Reality will be a good thing for her.
So you get served today. Its part of the process which I will admit (at least for me) is humiliating and was a bit scary. I had some GIANT man banging on my door at 8:30am who I did not even recognize. It was like something out of a movie - he asked me my name and since I had no clue these papers were coming and I didn't know this man I was scared. He was at least four times my size and then shouted in my face "consider yourself served". But he was just doing his job although I am not sure why he had to be so jerky about it. Once you get those papers though do your research and use the position of power you are in when you find out who you are up against.
I know all states differ but a divorce doesn't happen overnight. I know some states have a more rapid process than others but I doubt *any* state has a "24 hour divorce service". Plus, with Thanksgiving being this week attnys/the courts wont be working a full week.
If it happens, it happens. Feel what you need to feel then move on to a plan that is good for YOU.
Karen,
thank you so much for another detailed reply;
I'll get the book on tough love. I am religious, but W has become very anti-religion over the past 6 years. I've been thinking about returning to church as part of GAL, and fearful it would quicken D. I now see that's the wrong way to think of it. I'll look up the book. When this all started, D13 started going to school early to participate in a christian athletes group, and has expressed some interest so I can take him with me.
I've been to three alanon meetings so far. two were good, one was me and four women! The men's group on sat was overwhelming with 50+ men, but it's the best schedule for me. All I've done is listen so far. I need to connect with a sponsor. My MC is serving as IC, and I like her.
What kind of GALing are you doing?
I think I've been spending too much time on the "problems" on not on GAL. Still here's what I've done so far. I'm thinking this is more self-work than GAL.
1) I started putting all kids stuff before work. I had been working all the time, in my mind to meet W's needs. Now I don't see the point and I want to be at more of kids events. Costs us money, but doesn't matter to me now.
2) Changed diet: no more eating out; make my own breakfast and lunch.
3) Stopped drinking Coke (been wanting to do this for a while), drinking one glass of coke zero in the morning to help with the caffeine withdrawal.
4) started walking everyday. I've lost 20 pounds.
5) stared reading again instead of watching tv. used to read eveynight.
6) I've been disconnected with my own family. I reconnected with my closest sister. It's a shame it's over this crisis, but she is a rock. I'm having the entire family over for thanksgiving.
7) I've been trying to go out on weekends with friends, but this one is hard. I end up going out by myself, as all of my friends are working on weekend nights.
I'm a musician, all of my friends are musicians. I think I need to find some non-musician friends! Usually I would gig on weekends. The irony is a couple of years ago, I stopped doing most weekend gigs so that I could spend even more time with family, and that's when W started distancing more.
So you get served today.
...
If it happens, it happens. Feel what you need to feel then move on to a plan that is good for YOU.
Thanks CG, hearing what you went through actually helps a lot. I can handle this if I just stay calm and don't act with fear.
Just returned from meeting with MC/IC. She had some useful things to say. I told her about feeling awful about me putting D17 in the middle in my conversation with W. She agreed it was a big mistake, and suggested explain and apologize to D17. It was good advice. I just talked to D17. I told her that I had mentioned her to mom, that I had made a mistake and it wouldn't happen again. She was really appreciative, and said that she thought something had happened because mom had already come to her and apologized herself. So hopefully this one thing didn't turn out awful.
Another thing, MC thinks the BPD is a tentative factor, the alcohol the most serious. She wants me and W to meet with her after thanksgiving to try to come to some terms about our direction (presumably D), since that seems where W is headed. This is because W canceled her appointment today and specifically requested we all meet together. I said I needed to see my lawyer first, and she agreed whole-heatedly. She also thinks I have a better chance of staying in the house, if W files instead of me. I know she's not a lawyer.
I have not been able to reach my lawyer today, and I'm assuming she is out for the holidays.
I talked with my lawyer at length late yesterday, and I'm feeling very discouraged.
My L and I poured over the details of the process in my particular county, and she thinks proving the BPD and alcoholism will be difficult and very costly. The retainer is 5k, but the cost of this could skyrocket to 6x-10x that amount. I don't have even close to this kind of money; w's family does. The soonest I could start the process would be middle of next week.
She also thinks I should go to the MC with wife next week, as resisting MC would damage my position.
Am I allowing my fear to dominate me by listening to L and MC counsel, or am I being prudent?
I can tell I'm not in a good condition to make choices, and I've got to start taking better care of myself. The timing is terrible. W left for Seattle today, and I've never felt so lonely. I'm gonna enjoy my time with the kids, and I've got to avoid burdening them with my sadness, put my game face on! I've got this awful feeling that this is the last thanksgiving in our home. I know that is exaggerated, but that's how it feels today.
I'm thinking I should take a break from the forums. However, one of the things I'm most thankful for this holiday is the participation of everyone here on the forum.
Awoken,
I don't know why proving alcoholism would be so tough; I tend to disagree. There are witnesses in both of your lives -- including your children -- that a court-appointed evaluator could easily determine. The BPD would take a psych evaluation, which is costly, but not THAT costly.
I'd encourage you to look up DCBHM on his thread (over on the Infidelity forum), as he is VERY sharp on the legal stuff, including the psych eval stuff.
Puppy
I talked with my lawyer at length late yesterday, and I'm feeling very discouraged.
Interview several lawyers in the process of finding one. If this is your lawyer for business, contracts etc. ask him/her the question: if you were going through a divorce who would you hire to represent you.
My L and I poured over the details of the process in my particular county, and she thinks proving the BPD and alcoholism will be difficult and very costly. The retainer is 5k, but the cost of this could skyrocket to 6x-10x that amount.
Her prices are about spot on I think, but it concerns me that she is saying it will be difficult and costly to prove alcoholism and BPD. Your 17 year old is def. old enough to be a witness. She was on medication in the past for bpd isn't that right? Before you hand over a hefty fee to this L, maybe you should interview another L or 2 and see what they say about your case? This seems to me to be very critical in your case, and you have said also your W is abusive to your children when drinking didn't you?
RE: The MC go if your L advised you, but in my experience, and others I've seen here, they have to have both spouses willing to work on marriage counseling. If your W is not, then it will not be possible. I would not participate in divorce counseling if that's what they would like you to do, unless you are interested in D as well, and don't see how that could be used against you legally if you make that clear.
I don't know why proving alcoholism would be so tough; I tend to disagree. There are witnesses in both of your lives -- including your children -- that a court-appointed evaluator could easily determine. The BPD would take a psych evaluation, which is costly, but not THAT costly.
I'd encourage you to look up DCBHM on his thread (over on the Infidelity forum), as he is VERY sharp on the legal stuff, including the psych eval stuff.
Puppy
I read all of DCBHM's recent thread (43 pages), and skimmed his earlier threads too. Thanks again; I haven't really been looking in the other forums. His experience with the psyche eval sounds like what my L was trying to explain to me today; difficult to get W to comply, and costly due to delays. I guess no one with a history of bipolar or BPD wants to be evaluated. My W definitely has been resistant to going to therapy.
As to the alcoholism, the only people who have seen it are me and D17. W hides it pretty well from everyone else, and it doesn't appear to affect her life outside of the home. No DUI's, late to work only once.
Nonetheless, what I'm coming away with is that I need to shop for other lawyers and get other opinions. I am worried about the costs and what would happen if I ran out of money in the middle.
It's been a rough day. First day of my thanksgiving vacation; first day W is gone out of town. I planned on spending it with my kids, but both of them ended up making plans all day with their school friends which is important. I basically spent the day by myself. Late tonight, W called to talk to both kids. Before I could get out of the room, I heard S13 ask her hopefully if she "wanted to talk to dad?". Of course she told him no. My first taste of the future I suppose. I choked up and went upstairs. I didn't want to listen in anyway. I wish I could detach quicker!
Hang in there man...sorry you are hurting. This just sucks that there is so much of this going on in marriages. Its disheartening.
Her prices are about spot on I think, but it concerns me that she is saying it will be difficult and costly to prove alcoholism and BPD. Your 17 year old is def. old enough to be a witness. She was on medication in the past for bpd isn't that right? Before you hand over a hefty fee to this L, maybe you should interview another L or 2 and see what they say about your case? This seems to me to be very critical in your case, and you have said also your W is abusive to your children when drinking didn't you?
Yes, I think you are right and I should shop for lawyers. I got the nolo divorce book you recommended, and read through it. It had good recommendations about how to do this.
W is more negligent when drinking. I don't think of her as outright abusive, when compared to the stories I've been hearing at al-anon. Her mood swings have led her to some irrational attacks on the kids, which they have noticed over the years, but they don't happen when she is drinking. She drinks herself to sleep, while the kids are home, and has done it in front of them. During the past four weeks, post bomb, she's been drunk in front of them and started R talks in front of them. But that's never happened before.
RE: The MC go if your L advised you, but in my experience, and others I've seen here, they have to have both spouses willing to work on marriage counseling. If your W is not, then it will not be possible. I would not participate in divorce counseling if that's what they would like you to do, unless you are interested in D as well, and don't see how that could be used against you legally if you make that clear.
I guess I still don't know if I want to D. Somedays I think I can imagine a new happy life, and others I can't. You asked earlier about my GAL, and I posted what I've been doing. What do you think?
After I posted early today, I had decided to stay away from the forums for a little while and try to get my focus, but they day ended up being pretty bad for me so I'm back here again. It does seem to help me to talk about it here, and it keeps me from calling friends. It's unfortunate, but when I called two of my close longtime friends I found out they are both newly WAS. Something is going around.
Gosh, could this forum provide some free legal opinions?
http://forum.freeadvice.com/ (I just googled "free law advice")
Maybe Google free law advice and forum.
I wonder if some people from AA would have more info about divorce proceedings and proving a spouse is drinking.
Sorry not too helpful here....
Hang in there man...sorry you are hurting. This just sucks that there is so much of this going on in marriages. Its disheartening.
thanks Luvless
disheartening is just the word; so many people here, newcomers everyday. It's good to know we aren't alone, and that so many people care, especially the veterans who must see the same stuff day after day.
you hang in there too.
Gosh, could this forum provide some free legal opinions?
http://forum.freeadvice.com/ (I just googled "free law advice")
Maybe Google free law advice and forum.
I wonder if some people from AA would have more info about divorce proceedings and proving a spouse is drinking.
Sorry not too helpful here....
Heh!
Actually, the thread that Puppy sent me to was really useful. Even though that DCBHM hasn't made all the way through the final trail yet, his detailed posts about the process and the problems with both lawyers is something I couldn't have gotten anywhere else.
And the NOLO Divorce book Karen recommended is great too.
Here's my current question: This week WAW decided to cancel on thanksgiving with us, and went to Seattle to be with her family for thanksgiving. Her sister just had a baby. We've known the due date for a long time, so this was really about her getting away. She left me home with the kids thankfully.
Before this, we had agreed that on Dec 27th, when D17 goes on a school trip, that W would go to Seattle, leaving S13 with me for the next week including New Years.
I found out on Thanksgiving morning that for the past week, W has been asking S13 to decide if he would like to stay with me or go to Seattle with her for that week. S13 has been talking with D17 and is a little bothered with the idea of choosing between me and mom. S13 had just got of the phone and asked me what I thought of the "Seattle situation", which I knew nothing about. I told him that I he shouldn't worry about me and that I loved him no matter what he did. I didn't know what else to say. He then wanted to know why I didn't just come to Seattle with him, and I had to tell him that mom did'nt want me to come. D17 then came in and told me that he had been upset for a while about this, and I quickly said we should'nt really be talking about this, that I needed to talk directly with mom about it.
Here are my choices:
1) Tell my W to go ahead and take S13, since I just had him for a week. Sucks for me, no family or friends in town that week and I'll have to stay and watch the pets. Will likely take the most pressure off of S13.
2) Tell my W that I want her to stick to our original agreement. I wonder if she will just do it anyway.
3) Continue with VERY limited conversation with W, and let her make the choice. I don't think I can really stop her anyway.
I want to do what's best for S13, but I don't want to continue being a doormat for W. that' what this feels like.
My head is still in a fog, so I thought I would post these thoughts here BEFORE I do anything, and see what yall have to say.
WAW called several times today, while she knows I'm with the kids. I can't help but think she is knowingly trying to disrupt our time together, but maybe I'm just reacting and mind reading.
I didn't answer, waited for about an hour then sent her a text saying, "hi, what's up?" , she replied "I want to talk about the Seattle trip". I replied "I would like to talk about it in person on Monday when we agreed." She'll be back in town very late sunday night. She responds "So, you want to hurt MY family with this!". I replied, "I have no intention of hurting your family. We agreed yesterday that I had 2-3 days, and it's only been 24 hours. We can talk Sunday night if you want, but I was aware that you will be getting in very late. Just let me know if you prefer Sun or Mon.".
30 minutes pass, and then I get her reply of "Fine."
I dunno, but I think it was good I didn't talk on the phone with her and kept it to text. I stayed calm and focused on the problem. I'm gonna rehearse what I'm gonna say when we do meet. For all I know, she may go ahead and book flights for her and S13 anyway, and I need to prepare for it.
Last night she tried to chat with the kids on FB, and then suddenly just stopped replying to them. she's acting so strange, and it worries both D17 and S13.
I'm thinking about suggesting that we stick to the original agreement: S13 stays with me for new years week. Then I'll suggest that she can take both kids to Seattle for spring break.
I'm having a great time this weekend with my kids, and I'm surprisingly feeling a little detached from her, like I don't need her and these problems. I'm not sure what to think about that.
She is manipulating you and the kids. Perhaps she has always done this and you allowed her to get by with it? People like your W continue to do it until it becomes a "way of life" and they reach a place they may not even realize how they are treating people. Perhpas she doesn't realize but then OTOH.....she may very well know what she's doing. (You know your W, so what do you think?) One thing is for sure, you can be she will continue as long as she's not called out about it. People who manipulate their families are bullies and they are self-centered.
If you feel like a doormat, that is probably b/c you are being stepped on a lot!
Thanks for the reply Sandi. They all mean a lot. right now, I'm so deep in self-doubt about every little thing.
She is manipulating you and the kids. Perhaps she has always done this and you allowed her to get by with it?
People like your W continue to do it until it becomes a "way of life" and they reach a place they may not even realize how they are treating people. Perhpas she doesn't realize but then OTOH.....she may very well know what she's doing. (You know your W, so what do you think?)
That's a good question, have I allowed her to do this for years? Maybe. This does seem like new stuff; she seems like a completely different person; an alien. In the past, she has lashed out at OTHERS in this way, usually targeting one ENEMY at a time. Either a best friend, a neighbor, or a co-worker. This is the first time I've become the enemy, and she's made up with all the other enemies in her life. It's very irrational, and I think she is aware of that. But I don't think she has any idea that she has changed her focus to me.
If you feel like a doormat, that is probably b/c you are being stepped on a lot!
Yes. I've often felt like I was taking care of three children and felt resentful because of it. The thing is, I can see now how my resentment of this is one of the many problems in the M. It wasn't honest or loving of me to continue this way, and harbor the resentment. I have to laydown to be a doormat, right?
After all these years, it's hard standing up now and she sure doesn't like it. I'm not very sure of what I'm doing, but I seem to be getting clearer.
So, either late tonight or monday night I'm having a sit-down with my WAW to discuss her plans to take S13 to seatle for New Years week. (D17 will be in california for the rosebowl parade).
This is assuming that she didn't just go ahead and book the flights anyway.
I don't think I've handled most of our conversations very well. I need some support about what to say, how to say it, etc.
I want to take a stand on two things: First, that communication about the kids schedules should go between the two of us, and not through the kids. How do I say this and not make it sound like I'm trying to control her?
Second, S13 should stay home for newyears week as we originally agreed. S13 does not want to make the choice himself, and is very concerned about me not going on the trip. He has asked multiple times why I can't go to Seatle too, or how much would the extra plane ticket cost. I don't think it's in his interest, to be forced to deal with this, when we haven't even sat down to talk to him about our sitch yet. I think I should offer spring break week as an alternative. W could take both D17 and S13 then, and I'll be working. The very selfish side of this is that since we had already agreed on Newyears week, I turned down all my gigs and made plans already. Basically, it's too late to change any of that.
Please, what do you think?
First, that communication about the kids schedules should go between the two of us, and not through the kids. How do I say this and not make it sound like I'm trying to control her?
The way you said it here sounds just fine to me. You're focus is clearly on the kids and not control. You just do what you have to do, and don't worry about your W's reaction to what you are saying.
Second, S13 should stay home for newyears week as we originally agreed.
Sounds like you have many good reasons for sticking by the original plans. Hers is something like "you're trying to hurt me or my family" or something. I think the alternative of giving her spring break week is wonderful as well. I would try to get that in written form as well at some point, whether she agrees or not email that to her and save a copy of that on your computer. When they are deciding custody they look to the more reasonable parent to grant custody, and if she doesn't agree, then it will help you in the future if nothing else.
I have to laydown to be a doormat, right?
Excellent point! She will not respect a doormat no matter how you try to dress it up. There is one thing and one thing only she will respect and that is you saying what you mean and making her stick to what has been agreed. Somewhere along the way, she has made you think you were controlling and now you are leary about sticking to your guns b/c of that. Well, who cares? If she didn't blame you with controlling, it would be something else, right? It is very important that you do not argue a point that you have already stated. I wondered why you said she was coming and the two of you were going to sit down and discuss the issue about your S13 and who he'd be staying with, etc. Why have her sit down and talk? Wasn't it decided before she tried to throw a monkey wrench into it? You know as well as anybody that it will end up with the two of you arguing. She'll get mad and if you aren't very caredful, you'll give in to her just to have peace! That is one of the worst things a man can do. It only makes the woman worse the next time she wants her way!
Just remind your W that what was decided about the kids schedule stands and there is nothing to discuss. Tell her that if you ever even get the idea that she's behind one of the kid's changing their minds about where they "really" want to stay....that you will take her to court and a judge can make all the decisions. Don't say that she "was" behind your son wanting to be there with her family, but that if you ever just get the "feeling" that she has anything to do with one of the kids changing their plans.
A woman like your W
has to have a man who is stronger than she is. If she doesn't, she'll eat him alive! You must stand up to her on EVERYTHING and don't give an inch (unless it is something extordinatory). Yes, it is unpleasant, but you may be looking at the rest of your life with this cr@p if you don't lay down the law to her.
Was she planning to come anyway, or did you ask her to come in order to discuss this? Since she's coming anyway.....head off the discussion with what you said still stands. If she starts in with her bitching...hold up your hand in a "stop" position and tell her that you will not argue nor discuss it farther. Know how to deal with a female that pitches a fit? Walk out of the house and drive away. If it's your house and not her's....then show her the door. You don't have to put up with that from her. You've told me enough that I already have her number! Women like her think they "have" to have at least one person they hate all the time. They almost make it their project. So, you're her enemy....that may never change, but I can promise you that it won't change by you kissing her behind. She may not like you--but you can make her respect you.
It also teaches your son how to be a man and how he needs to act when he's M. It shows your D what kind of man she needs to M some day regardless of what mom may tell her. Let's hope your D won't turn out to be like her mother.
I need some support about what to say, how to say it, etc.
Okay, I'm kind of repeating myself, but this may give you a play by play of what I was saying.
So....when your W sits down, don't even wait until she tries to hit you with how unreasonable you are being and how much her family wants S13 to be there or how much he wants it. She'll probably start on you the minute she gets there, but when you finally get her sitted.....continue to
stand to make your statement (b/c that puts you in a position of authority). Hold up your hand and say, "W, I'll save you the time and energy by telling you that
I have decided (very important to use the words I've decided) that we will stick to the schedule that was originally agreed upon. There will always be
"something" that comes along that you or somebody else will want to change things around. After giving this careful thought,
I have decided that that it will be to the kids' advantage, in the long run, to stay on schedule."
She, of course, will tell you how selfish you are......or at least she'll
start, but that is when you hold up your hand to "stop". Say, "W, we will not fight about this. We can sit down and calmly discuss the calendar for this next year and decide how we will share visitation, or you may leave....it's your choice, but we will not argue about this".
She will react b/c she's use to getting her way. She'll probably acuse you of controlling, so when she starts......either hand her her coat and show her the door and say, "When you are ready to calmly discuss next year's calendar, then I will talk to you....but not until then". I am thinking you two are S, so you should be able to walk her to the door and say nothing farther, but if I'm wrong then you can leave and go spend the night in a motel or something....but don't take her disrespect.
I think I should offer spring break week as an alternative.
I'm not saying that in the future that you can't be more flexable, but for this time.....in order to show her that you still wear pants like a man (no offense), you don't need to offer
any alternatives. If you do, then you are politely handing all the power back to her after you've just taken it from her. That is your goal this time around...is to take control of your life again and stop giving her all the power. You are not trying to control what she does in her life, but she has no right to control yours. BTW, do not argue any of this with her. Her "tool" will be to get you into an argument and that is why I keep telling you not to argue. As soon as you do....you've lost. It is like aruging with a child.....as soon as you do then you've lost your authority as a parent. Just as with a child, you do not have to give her any "pitch" for why you have made your decisions. This isn't a sale you're making, so don't feel that you have to do that, okay? Just state your decision and leave it at that.
I told a man some type of advice similar to this one time and a female poster didn't like it. Said, "Why don't you just tell all the women to walk ten paces behind the men?" (LOL) That isn't what I'm doing here. I am trusting that you realize that you have to regain ground that has been lost a long time ago with your W. It may take courage, the first time, but I'll bet it makes you feel great! She won't like it, but she will respect a man who shows strength and leadership. There is a difference in being the leader in a family....and being a dictator. She has chosen to leave you and not follow, but your children need their father to be a leader.
I used the example of telling her that the two of you could discuss next year's calendar, but that was just an example. You may not be at the place or time that you are ready to look at next year. I was thinking of a reason for having her there for a discussion other than S13 staying with her. Maybe you know a better way to turn it off.
Let me know how it goes.
Thank you Sandi. I read everything you wrote many times, over and over. It really helps.
The bomb was only 5 weeks ago, and we are still living in the same house. I slept in the guest room for a few days, but then moved back in the master bedroom and she promptly moved into the guestroom.
my plan (typing it out to help get it clear in my mind):
1) get W to sit down to talk
2) remain standing!
3) tell her that communication about the kids schedules should be between the two of us, and not through the kids. If I ever get the feeling that W is manipulating one of the kids, I'll take the matter to court and a judge can decide all visitations.
4) Then, I'll tell her that thought it over and I've decided it's in the best interest of S13 for us to stick to the original agreement.
5) If she argues, I'll stop her and tell her I'll only talk if she is willing to discuss it calmly. I'll leave the room if needed.
6) If she wants to talk about the future schedule, I can offer spring break to her and her family.
Of course, she may have already bought the tickets. I'm sure she has aligned her entire family against me.
Showdown either tonight after 10 when she gets back from the airport, or tomorrow night after work. I'll be sure to let you know how it works out. THANKS AGAIN.
I rehearsed my script many times, and somehow I couldn't follow it.
I can't talk to her anymore.
I ended up arguing with her, i don't know how.
she pulled out some paper work from her lawyer about custody and visitation. She's hired the top dog at a highend family law firm.
i feel like I can't think straight, and I'm failing at all of this.
I was feeling strong and focused, and now I'm falling apart again.
this sucks.
You didn't sign anything, did you??
You didn't sign anything, did you??
no. she waved the papers at me, i could see a list of custody rules on them.
the worst for me is that I was not calm or in any kind of control. i rehearsed what i was gonna do, wrote it down, and still couldn't handle it.
maybe i should do it all via email and text from now on, but im exhausted.
the attorney she has appears to be one of the most recognized in my state, and help write the current custody guidelines for family law litigation. he's at $500-600 an hour. i'm assuming her family is paying.
im so frustrated.
Yes, if you can't stay under control, even after rehearsing, probably best to do things via e-mail from now on. Just be VERY careful what you say, however, for obvious legal reasons. Before hitting "send" re-read it several times and try to look at it LIKE SOME SHARK DIVORCE LAWYER would look at it, and don't send it if you feel it's in any way incriminating.
Who do you have representing you?
Puppy
Before hitting "send" re-read it several times and try to look at it LIKE SOME SHARK DIVORCE LAWYER would look at it, and don't send it if you feel it's in any way incriminating.
Who do you have representing you?
Puppy
You already know your wife has legal counsel, so if you don't have your own you need to get a lawyer ASAP.
After that, any attempt to give you anything to sign or look over should be met with "thanks, I'll get with my attorney to review this as soon as I can, and get back to you."
There is nothing wrong with looking out for yourself: divorce is an adversarial process, and she is
not your friend and ally in this.
There is nothing wrong with looking out for yourself: divorce is an adversarial process, and she is not your friend and ally in this.
Yep. That's why that put that little
"v" in between the parties' names.
I have the attorney that I did the initial consultation with. She's been in practice for 20+ years in our area. we've spent a lot of time on the phone since then. her retainer is only 5k
this morning I called some of the lawyers that I had researched as being competitive with the firm that my W had picked. I knew which firm, because W left the paperwork out from her appointment (likely on purpose). I found out last night that she is using the founding partner at the firm.
i don't think I'm gonna be able to afford these high end lawyers. The initial consult is $500, then $500 an hour, plus $250 for support staff. 15k-20k retainer.
Then go with someone younger/cheaper/hungrier.
There are "men's rights" legal associations, from whom you could probably get a referral in your area. My guy was only $2,500 retainer (wife's was $3,500), he ONLY did family law (hers mostly did criminal and real estate law, and had only recently gotten into family law), and he only worked with men.
He was extremely sharp, and I was impressed with how the judges and clerks all knew him, and his attention to detail (like having a self-addressed, stamped envelope for the clerk to use to send us our copies of docs).
Don't let her intimidate you.
Puppy
So no more discussions with her, best handled by the Ls anyway. I don't think you need a $500 an hour attorney to be good, most I think are much less than that. The founding partners sometimes aren't even that great; in my fil's firm founding partners tend to work less hours and be less aggressive; the younger partners are the ones that tend to do the majority of work. I would ask around; there are so many people divorcing nowadays and find out who your friends would recommend...
Just stick to email. Before anything in any way controversial I would post an email here and get everyone's input, as my H is an L, so tried to be as careful as I could. Just waiting sometimes 1/2 a day or a day later that it took to do that was good, b/c it helped me to calm down and write a more polite, business-like email too.
Sorry things went so badly. Did you actually read the paper she had in hand, or did you just see a list of rules? If you did not see an official letter head from the lawyer's office....or his signature, then she may be trying to bluff you out. At any rate, she isn't going to play nice, so you best get to finding legal help ASAP.
I know you are down, but mothers are not just automatically handed over full custody of the children like they were years ago. Keep your chin up and fight for your kids. The Judge may be interested in knowing who wanted to end the M and why. I really don't know how much that weighs anymore, to be honest. It may depend on where you live, IDK. But I believe from what I read that most couples are having to share visitation 50-50.
Don't give up on who you are as a man and a father. You're not done! You are young and the future can hold blessings that you never dreamed of before.
I know you are down, but mothers are not just automatically handed over full custody of the children like they were years ago. . . .But I believe from what I read that most couples are having to share visitation 50-50.
Yep -- absolutely. In most jurisdictions, the judges start at 50/50, and then work in one direction or another, based on the evidence and the circumstances. And trust me, they have heard EVERY bullchit, batchit-crazy excuse and sob story out there!
Puppy
I've been pretty depressed for the past few days, and I've been avoiding the forum here and anything to do with my sitch in general. I likely shouldn't post this as I'm feeling pretty pitiful now.
I was able to get monday afternoon free, so I did some research. I looked for fathers rights groups in my area and only found the "100 black men" group. I then went searching for attorneys.
I met with another attorney on tuesday morning, one that has a history with W's attorney and that favors father's rights. She is AV rated, and seems to have a great reputation. She was blunt with me, and said many of the same things my other attorney said.
She said that 50/50 custody in my county is granted when both parties can prove cooperation in parenting and are able to live reasonably close enough to each other. Since W and I are already having problems over some custody issues, she thought this didn't look too good. She recommended two choices: 1) let my wife have physical custody, but work for the best terms possible, or 2) fight it out, knowing I have a good case. She could not estimate the cost of fighting it out, but gave me some min. numbers. Gaurdian Ad Litem or Psycologist: 8k, 5k retainer, but expect it to go up to 25k. THEN, considering the reputation of W's lawyer, lots of delays and extra costs.
I'm back where I was before. I could possibly raise some of the money with personal loans/credit cards. But I'm considering D17's college needs in one more year.
W appears to have stopped her abusive drinking. I'll see what happens this weekend.
I'm starting to think that the best thing for my kids is going to require the hardest sacrifice from me, including less time with them. I simply don't know what to do. For now, I'll just keep trying to be the best dad I can, and try to work on me some more.
That is really, really tough. One thing to consider is that they are both teens and it won't be that long of an agreement. Small consolation. Second thing is W's drinking. If she can't handle things whose to say the situation won't change in a year.
ClingingToHope has a point. I have also experienced that if I don't do battle with some things that it doesn't become what I had feared. In other words, if you do not fight your W, then she may decide that having to handle teenagers by herself is not what she "really" wanted at all. She may be more than happy for dad to have them more than she planned.
I think that so many people who want a D use the kids as a weapon to hurt the other S. So as hard as it may be in the beginning......if you were to act as if you were fine with things, then she may settle down after her steam runs out.
This may sound a lot different than how I suggested you talk to her the other night, but it is simply a different approach in how you have to deal with the reality of your situation with finances. If the children were a lot smaller, then you "might" think about taking out loans, etc, but after all is said & done.....I'll bet you get to see the kids a good deal of the time. It will be especially hard in the beginning, but a lot of that will be b/c of "everything" combined in the stitch that you're adjusting to.
You know, if you would drop the rope around her and move on with your life, there is always a possibility that she'll change her mind about a D.
sandi, thanks.
I'm trying to calm down and get this together. this afternoon I started to make a yearly statement for my self-employed business. I had removed all the records from the computer. I saw a post today that mentioned removing all records from the house, and I remembered some hard copies. I looked for them and discovered that they are all gone. I checked the phone records, and W called a forensic accountant today. She's always done the books for my business, so I can only assume she is trying to build some bogus case against me.
Time and again, I'm missing things that I should be on top of. I've got to get smarter.
I'm pretty furious now, so I left the house to get some space for me. I want to figure out how to calm the sitch down. Does she realize how much this will cost, and what it will do to the kids?
I'll read some more about dropping the rope, but I don't see how I can drop it anymore than I already am. I have almost no contact with her at all, and as far as she knows I am just moving on. but maybe I'm not doing it well at all, and she knows it. I just don't know.
As I think about it, I think I've too hostile/confrontational instead of a calm strong man. Maybe she is offensive is a reaction to her perceiving that I'm attacking her? Again, I don't know.
It keeps running through my mind that I should talk to her about mediation or some compromise for the kids sake, point out that all the money we are about to spend could go to the kids needs. but I think this is the opposite of dropping the rope, but I've got the horrible need to do something. I'm resisting it by not being home right now. Someone should 2x4 me hard.
I should also mention that I searched the guest room looking for the missing records, and found an empty wine bottle hidden in the closet and a corkscrew. I guess W hasn't completely quit drinking after all. At least she's hiding it from the kids too now.
Well, i took some action last night. I hope it wasn't the completely wrong thing to do.
I was supposed to go to a xmas party but I was so upset/distraught that I just couldn't do it. I left the house early to avoid W, to avoid confronting her with my anger. Ran some errands, went to the book store, made the previous two posts her on DB. I was getting worse, so I went to the park, took a long walk, cried my head off, breathed, and then prayed for guidance.
After a while, I just decide to just let go of some of this stuff. I realize that I've been somehow trying to punish my W, and that shes lost and I'm gone have to be stronger for my family. If I continue the way I have, the sitch is going to spiral into an all out war, and I don't see that helping at all.
I got calmer than I've been in a long while.
So, I drive home and ask W if she'll talk with me for a few minutes and that I promise I'll be calm. She says, ok and we retreat away from the kids into the masterbedroom. I asked her if she was still %100 percent committed to a D, and she replied that she had'nt actually retained a lawyer yet. I then said that I had notice that all of my hardcopies schedules for my business were gone, and that I had checked up on the Lawyer she's been consulting. Based on the missing records, and the lawyers reputation, it looked to me like she was preparing for a very contentious divorce. I then said, I want you to know that I think a bitter divorce war will be terrible for all of us, especially the kids. It will cost a fortune for both of us, and there will far less money left over for the kids or either of us.
I then said, I don't want that kind of divorce and I'm willing to consider anything that is in the best interest of the kids.
She started crying and grabbed me for a long hug. She says she knows her L is a shark, but that they know she doesn't have much money and her parents aren't paying for the D, and she would like to consider a collaborative D.
She says that she crys every morning, and misses talking to me. I tell her I'm sorry she is in so much pain. I tell her I know I've been mean to her, while I've been trying to detach and that I've been doing my best. I told her I don't want a D, but at this point I'm willing to move on. We just have to figure out how.
She mentions several ideas shes had about how I can move out of the house, and matter of factly point out how each one of them will affect us both financially, without saying no to them. She says that she is seeing a financial planner next week to see about refinancing the house. I know this is'nt realy true, and the guy she is seeing is really the shark cpa. She also starts in about how she thinks it would easier for me if there actually was OM to blame this on. I remained calm, and just let it go. My goal is to get a non-contentious D.
We laid on the bed together for some more small talk, and then I went back downstairs for some time working on music with D13.
She decides to go out for a couple of hours.
Overall, I feel better about the direction. But I'm curious if any of you think I made a big mistake. Right now, it feels like a better direct than the contentious chaos of the last 6 weeks.
Don't get me wrong, I still feel just awful, but at least I'm calmer.
I was talking to my DB counselor about a conversation I had on Oct. 22 that initially I was proud of. It started out about the kids. I asked about an insurance thing. She said to check with my company because I'd be kicked off her insurance when the D becomes final mid-year. I asked her if she'd be filing soon and she said yes.
For the first time, I didn't collapse or plead or ask for another chance. We talked calmly about perhaps getting a collaborative divorce.
I felt strong.
Dottie, my DB counselor, told me it was not a smart thing to do.
If I don't want a D then I shouldn't bring it up and if W does find a way to bring up a D, I should focus on the issue at hand instead of discussing D and if she persists then find a way to get out of the conversation.
If you really don't want a D then don't bring it up. If she tries to bait you into a D discussion then find a reason to end the conversation.
Time is our only ally here. Use it to your advantage. Don't push the process along unless you want to be divorced.
Yes, remain calm and strong. But Dottie gave me the best advice I've received. It's a DB staple but I didn't embrace it. Act "as if." As in acting as if this is all going to work out in the end. It's just a phase.
Another thing, from an earlier post. Don't try to guilt her over the cost or the kids. That's just a form of control. That actually works in reverse. It pushes them away because they want to show you they can make it on their own.
Plus, what if it works and you remain together just for the sake of money or the kids. Is that really what you want? You'll be walking around on eggshells for another five years and then once they are both 18 what will you have then.
She's got to stay because she loves you and it may take time for her to realize that. Don't speed up the process unless you want to end it.
CTH,
Thanks for a great reply. This is a new direction for me, and what you've said makes a lot of sense.
I used your advice today. No D talk, and I avoided it when W was leading towards it. I also get what you are saying about the money and the kids. I've added the "as if" to the little tip sheet I keep in my wallet.
Hopefully, I can actually start DOING the things I know I should be. I'm seem to feel calmer and able think clearer.
Today things were different between me and W, and it does seems like our talk has led things in a different direction. Only time will tell.
We've had almost no real communication other than confrontations over the past 4 weeks. Today I left the house for a long walk in the park (it's cold!), and after a few hours W texted me to see if I was ok, and asked if I wanted to have dinner with the family and catch up on episodes of Glee (D17's favorite show). I waited a while before responding and said "thanks, I'm ok. I'd enjoy that".
I came home, and W sat down to talk about D17's progress in school, and her upcoming trip to Seattle. She broke down in tears and told me she was glad I talked to her yesterday and she really misses me "her friend". We had some dinner and watched several episodes of the show with the kids. Between episodes, W would break down into tears and give me long hugs (away from the kids). I managed to stay calm, and just told her I was sorry she was hurting. When she wanted to talk specifically about the R or D, I just excused myself politely.
When we retreated to our respective bedrooms, she gave me another long hug and said "I still love you ...... I'm just sorry it's not enough". That stung a lot, but I didn't react. I told her I love her too, and then said I was tired and needed to go to bed.
I wonder if this is better than the mostly NC I was doing before. I need to go back and read more about dropping the rope, and make sure I'm not pursuing.
more journaling:
Had a great day sunday. Took S13 to see his friend perform in a play, and then to lunch for his favorite food. We had a great time. While we were gone, W had cooked an entire Thanksgiving meal. I gather that she must have missed doing it she gone.
Nonetheless, she set it up as a buffet. She retreated to her room and didn't eat together.
Later that night, S13 found out that he had passed his band audition. Ever since our sitch started 6 weeks ago, he's poured his energy into improving himself. He was so worried about the result of the audition, and wanted to check the emails for the results every 30 minutes. I was so proud of him, and the results were just a bonus.
I'm still not sure about this direction I'm taking, but it doesn't really matter. I'm more detached and calmer. W doesn't seem to be doing well. Tonight she was supposed to goto D17's mandatory meeting about her upcoming band trip. I wanted to go, but W said it was her turn. The meeting was at 7pm. At 6:55, W was locked in her room. I had to knock several times to get a response. I'm presuming she had drank herself to sleep again. I told her I would go to the meeting, and then scrambled over there. 20-30 minutes later, she texted D17, and met her outside the meeting to drop of food for D17 and her boyfriend.
She's very stressed. I know she is meeting with the forensic accountant from her shark lawyer tomorrow.
I'll just continue to be patient, and work on my calm.
One of my W's complaints about me has been our lack of a large group of friends outside our M. I've always been the type that prefers one or two close friends over large groups of people.
Part of my GAL routine has been to connect with more people, old friends, and develop more of a social life for myself.
Posting here has been part of that effort. It's not easy for me, any I find myself confronting my shyness and uncertainty about my social skills every time I post. Ok, so I'm not getting many replies anymore, and I hope I haven't become one of the hopeless cases. I do appreciate all of the responses I have gotten.
I'll keep posting, because right now it helps me to vent, and I think it's good for me to have a record of this.
Right now, I'm still wondering if my current direction is a good one. I've made a few posts about it, and if anyone has an opinion I'd sure like to hear it.
Not much time to respond, but I wanted to suggest that you begin posting on others' threads as well. It helps you "meet" other people on the board, and you'll get more traffic.
When H dropped the bomb on me, I was very shy as well. It was part of his issue with me. On top of it all, we'd just moved here a year before, and all of my good friends were in a city 2000 miles away. I worked in IC and on my own through GAL stuff and have conquered those fears.
SD
Another shy guy here too! I have not posted for awhile on my own sitch but I wanted to comment. At the end of october I told my wife that I knew about her ea and that I did not want to be married to her anymore. I told her that I had learned alot about myself throught his experience and that I was thankful for it. I went extremely dark for 2 weeks until we went to a concert with our D8. I was a gentleman, funny, cool and I had plenty of phone calls to answer. I remained dark until the end of november. I decided I would send her a text with an inside joke from the night of the concert. She responded within about 30 seconds. I sent another and again she responded quick. I ended it and a few days later I tried it again. I texted asking about her doctors appointment. She responded quickly again. Now, I think I have sent her texts almost every day for about 2 weeks. So now I am getting even more gutsy, I told her that her hair looks "really hot". I just didnt care what her response might be and there was none. But, she was still very friendly towards me shortly after that and not at all stand offish. You CAN be friendly AND ocasionaly send the message that you find her interesting. It take time.
By the way, if I had sent those kind of texts to my wife 6 months ago she would have ignored them totaly and been cold as ice toward me.
Thanks v1olin for responding!
Lately I think my hopes/expectations for my M have died, but it still is heartening to hear what you saying. Especially with regards to the time frame;
I'm gonna go look up your sitch now.
(by the way; are you a musician too?)
SD,
I've been trying to post on others thread, but that seems like the hardest. I've been going to IC too, but it's been mainly crises management. I see now I need to focus it on my own personal problems.
thanks for taking the time
tough night; I went to D17's band concert. I didn't know W was going, and there was a little awkward moment when I stupidly started to sit in another row, she saw me, and I turned around and asked if it was ok if I sat with her. I think I should've just sat down.
anyway, after the concert, D17 was pretty upset with her boyfriend (of two years) for multiple reasons. As I was walking out with D17, we saw the boy with another girl being much too friendly. Within an hour of getting home, the boyfriend called and brokeup with D17, and then 10 minutes announced it on facebook to all their friends. D17 is devastated.
Both W and I were there to console her. Sadly, she didn't want much to do with us, and I can see and understand her anger in both of us right now.
I have a D18. I feel ALL of your pain!!! Poor D17... HUGS
great news there. yes, it will take time, but there's been a significant thaw!
Thanks for the hug Mindful! Just what I need!
D17 stayed up all night sick to her stomach. She wanted to skip school today, but her and I finally agreed she needed to go. She has some tests she can't miss. She wanted to take all of BF's stuff and dump it at the school! I convinced her not to make any decisions while upset (W helped with this too).
She started having real problems with her BF around the same time my sitch started, and at first she was handling it so well: naturally DB'ing. But now, she's gone the other way with it.
She usually communicates a lot about this stuff, but because of everything she knows about the problems with me and W, she clearly wants to handle this all on her own. All I should really do anyway is offer her my love and support, but man it's hard to watch her hurt like this.
there's been a significant thaw!
Thanks HM. I hadn't thought about it that way, and I have been wondering if I'm just supplicating her. But it's much better to have less animosity, at least for the kids. Especially since we are in the same house. I guess I have difficulty with how long this is, patience has not been my virtue: I want to fix it NOW.
It's been very hard, because I would normally want to leave the house when I'm feeling weak, but there's been so many times when I need to be there for the kids in case she's been drinking again. However, that seems to be improving too.
She usually communicates a lot about this stuff, but because of everything she knows about the problems with me and W, she clearly wants to handle this all on her own. All I should really do anyway is offer her my love and support, but man it's hard to watch her hurt like this.
(((D17))) & (((Awoken)))
Love & support is what she needs - same as you. So sorry she's having to go through this breakup. You can be a good example to her right now. Actions speak louder than words, right?
Sounds like you're handling things much better now. Peace in the house can't be a bad thing.
So now I am getting even more gutsy, I told her that her hair looks "really hot". I just didnt care what her response might be and there was none. But, she was still very friendly towards me shortly after that and not at all stand offish. You CAN be friendly AND ocasionaly send the message that you find her interesting. It take time.
just didnt care what her response might be .....
that is the attitude you had and conveyed when you first met your wife and it was successful. if they are interested in you they let you know, they laugh at even your stupid jokes, they constantly glance over at you, they want to talk. if they are not interested, its obvious.
don't bother gauging or analyzing their response. when you do or you are concerned what their response might be, they can sense that, (it is in how you project yourself, how you respond, you might even smell different) and it scares them. remember it is not suppose to be work it is suppose to be fun.
people respond better to a fun carefree attitude.
Awoken, I have not posted in a while but didn't want you to think I had left for good. I want to tell you something about how your W has acted since you had the D talk and peace has seemed to settle over the house. Most of that is due to the fact both of you needed rest, and needed to try to meet in the middle of the road.....in order to maintain some type of sanity. So, you reach the place that you can't take any more and have the D talk. Now, what just kills me is when I see this reaction with the LBH........his W shows him a little affection and softens (for lack of a better word) toward him in her attitude. She tells him how she's missed him.....her best friend. He goes away feeling pretty good over their talk.
Okay, so here's the deal.......if she can get her D and keep you as her best friend....life is just honky-dorey! Do you want to know what really shook me up in my stitch? When my H looked me firmly in the eye and said, "There won't be any of this being friends thing...if we break up". I don't know why I was shocked, except that all my thinking was so screwed up at the time. The thought of him never being any part of my life....ever again....not even as a friend?
Listen, you don't want to be her gay friend. That is what she might as well be saying.....she could replace you with a gay BF, or a woman friend as far as that goes. I mean, she certainly isn't implying wanting to have sex with you, right? Bet there wasn't a sexual thought in that hug she gave you. That is b/c she is not feeling sexually attracted to you right now. You have basically told her she can have her D without a fight (to save money) and she'll still have you for a friend. That is why she felt so much relief and started crying. She didn't have to worry about any pressure from any direction. To a W who isn't wanting to have sex with her H any longer.....that is a pretty good looking deal, what to do? Can't undo the talk, that's for sure, so I would advoid any future talk of D as much as possible, but she will finally pin you down about it. So you need to be prepared with an answer.
But here's what I'm thinking, a woman needs to first respect her H and then she has to admire him and be drawn to him sexually. If she doesn't feel sexually attracted to him....might as well pack it up. Let's just get real for a minute.....when the attraction is gone--the R is about shot (unless of course it is b/c of physcial problems...old age, etc.)but I'm talking about young, healthy couples. By the time physical problems, etc. has taken over the body....hopefully the couple has aged together and built a MR on a foundation that will be strong enough to carry over into this part of their life together. I remember asking my GM how old a man had to be when he stopped having sex with his W.....and my 82 year old GM's face blushed and she said she didn't know yet.
So what can you do to bring that about? You said you couldn't stand not being able to fix this....well then start fixing it by becoming a sexy, attractive, confident man that a woman would be crazy to leave. You did it once before. She wanted you the first time. Even if she files for a D and even goes to mediation......so did Mr. & Mrs. Puppy...and look at them now. D does not have to be the end. It does have a way of helping people drop the rope, however. Go into this with a new spirit...one where you can't be a loser. You will be a winner no matter what!
All through out this event she will be watching your attitude, persoanlity, manners, your personal appearance....and that wonderful cologne you are wearing that make it hard for her to stay focused. And not once have you seem to realy notice her. Oh you've smiled and spoke but you've had your head togehter with your lawyer but it taks her off b/c she doesn't seem to have any power over you. Why are you nottearing up? Why have't you come tried to talk her out of a last minute change of heart? Hummm.....interesting.
Sandi:
Thanks again for reply; I've read it through many times over and it's really sinking in.
I did feel relieved after our D talk, but I was unsettled at the same time. I don't want to be her best friend and not her husband.
Almost everything she says to me now is lies, and I don't really think she wants me as a best friend anyway. I'll admit that even as she was hugging me, I felt a little manipulated.
This past week, I've become more well...disappointed or disgusted with the history of our M, including my role in it.
Its hard to admit, but there may have been more sad times than good over the past 16 years. Our sex life was fantastic during courtship, but after D was born, things changed dramatically. It's been a sex-starved M, with brief intervals that gave me hope. W has blamed the problems on her bipolar and the meds, but now says it was all me. I see now how this is directly connected with her emotional detachment over the years as well. I've been pursing her for so long. It's starting to feel like the past 16 years has been a big charade.
Maybe I can be the be the sexy, confident man that first attracted her, but I still need to be that man for myself regardless of her reaction. I think that is what I've been trying to do, but I've been bouncing back and forth between hostile detachment, and being her friend. It's been tough since there has been a need for some interaction that I would rather avoid all together.
Tomorrow she wants to meet to go over our finances. Bills are due, and I separated my bank accounts so we need to work something out. I'm thinking maybe I should tell her to just do it via email, except I would like to see the bills myself and not just take her word.
sigh, D17 is really taking her breakup with her BF hard. She demanded that mom take her over to BF's house to drop off a bag of his stuff. Mom asked if I could do it, and D17 soundly rejected the idea of me being involved. This and a lot of other little things make it clear that D17 is angry with me somehow over her breakup.
It's an understandable reaction on her part, but it's really to the blame in her eyes, and realize that she's closing herself off to me. All I can do is continue to be here for her.
I just want to scream now; gonna go outside and take a long walk.
So my fears about my W's family seem to be confirmed. Small holiday cards and tokens have started arriving at the house. Each one carefully addressed to "The Awoken Family" but to "W, D17, and S13". I certainly understand them siding with my W, but since we haven't separated, are living in the same house, have not filed for D, and have NOT told the kids anything specific yet, it just seems cruel. In contrast, my mother carefully invited my W over for Christmas with me and the kids. I wonder if I'm being irrational about this? I admit, I'm pretty hurt that her entire family has completely dropped me. The worst I've done is been a poor SIL. Still, I think the different stuff could have been sent in a way that was more sensitive at least to my children.
I'm want to avoid any D talk, but it is likely time to sit down and tell the kids something. I'm mostly worried about S13. Just 2-3 weeks ago he was upset because both W and I couldn't go to Seattle together. I suspect he really knows what's going on anyway.
(((Awoken)))
I'm thinking about you today and praying for you.
I just wish you could find a way to be hopeful and let go of the outcome. That seems to be a big key to getting through this. It may feel awful right now, but better days are ahead...one way or another.
Oh yeah - this post was referenced in another thread and I thought it might be helpful to you regarding your wedding ring.
Action Speaks Much Louder Than Words
Your D may be mad at "all men" b/c of her break-up with BF. Some girls do that b/c they don't know how to handle their emotions. Or.....your W may have told her how rotten you are to get D on her side. In time, your kids will know the truth, but in the meantime you must keep your dignity and don't cave to emotional things.
Tension is high in the household and this time of year makes it even worse. I know it hurts that your in-laws are being so obvious about excluding you in the cards, etc., but you are a man that can rise above that nonsense and show strength.
Don't you think that your W should be the one to tell the children what "she" is wanting to do? But, you need to be present and make sure they understand that is not what you want.....it is not a joint decision.
(((Sister)))
Thanks.
Yes, I do better when I let go of the outcome. I've been able to focus on that this week.
also, that thread was really useful.
(((Sandi)))
D17 seems to be doing much better now
Nonetheless, I think there is some misinformation going on both from my W and from D17. As you said, W is playing D17 against me, and D17 is likely using the situation a little to her advantage in a typically teenage way. I've been strong, calm and non-reactive with her this week, and it's worked out well. Your words were helpful with this!
Yes, I think W should tell the kids what "she" is wanting to do, but I think that is unlikely to happen anytime soon. Both kids noticed right away when she took off her rings, and divorced me on FB, so they both know who is the WAS. D17 in particular, since she eavesdropped on a R talk 2 days after the bomb. I just think having us both sit down and talk then might be keep them from wild speculation, and also prevent W from telling them he own "story" of what's going on.
More weird behavior from W. Her actions follows the script of so many stiches here, but still it surprises me and leaves me confused! However, I seem to be in better control of my emotions this week, maybe due to me finally letting go both of her and the outcome. For the first time, I'm feeling some real detachment, almost relief. I actually feel pretty sad about it, but not full of panic and desperation like I have been so much before. I'm prepared for this to be just another low in my roller coaster of emotions.
I had very little contact with W this week, with the exception of wednesday. She didn't want to talk (rolled her eyes), but she wasn't responding to my email for copies of the bills and time had run out. She was angry; I remained very calm and just said that I need to take care of the bills, and that it was important that we communicate calmly for the sake of everyone. We divided everything in half, and I confirmed that I had canceled the last remaining shared credit card. I had to assert that MY bills be included. We agreed on a total amount that I need to put in her account, but she was obviously shocked at how little it was going to be. By the end of the conversation, she had calmed down. She then apologized for her families cards and gifts (without me saying anything), and said she had asked them to refrain.
Then the weirdness: Thursday morning she left me a message on the answering machine asking me to feed the dogs, and ending with a quick "love you".
This afternoon, she sent me a text saying she was going spend the night at our next door neighbors house to get away from the stress in the house. (Our neighbor is away for the holidays).
Tonight she sends me another text saying "Sorry for everything; I'm having a bad day".
I wait a while to reply, and then told her "Thanks, I understand and I'm sorry you are hurting"
Five minutes later she texts "I miss you. Sounds weird I'm sure".
I'm not sure what to say to this, I wait a while an then reply "Me too".
It seemed wrong not to reply to her at all, and I didn't really know what to say. I figure she is feeling lonely and sad. Of course, for a little while it got my hopes up, just a little affection from her has such power over me. Still, I can tell that it's not what it used to be and I'm detaching. That make me sad too.
Big drama today This will be long, and not well written.
Today was the day my W's friend's wedding. She took both D17 and S13 with her. They dressed up, and she asked me to take pictures of them all. She was acting very weird, almost flirty. I was polite, and told her she looked great. She asked me to take pictures of her and then kids, and then they headed out.
Three hours later, she calls me, voice shaking. I can hear the kids yelling AT her in the background. She says they are having a terrible fight, that she is a terrible mother, and that she can't handle it anymore. She doesn't want to be a mother or wife anymore and just wants to run away. The kids hate her. I can hear the kids protesting in the background that they've never said any such thing. She asks me to come out and help. They are in a parking lot outside a strip mall, near a McDonalds that they had stopped at to feed S13.
When I get there, she is alone in the minivan, and both kids have fled. I calmed W down, and got part of the story. I had to reassure her that whatever the kids had said, they were upset and they both loved her and needed her. D17 had left with the keys to the van, and S13 had gone the opposite direction.
I found both kids huddled up outside the macdonalds, and got more of the story from them. W had been a wreck at the wedding, with non-stop crying and strange behavior. D17 suspected her of drinking too much, and insisted on driving back which started the conflict, which by the time they stopped at the MacDonalds, turned into a full fight.
D17 confronted W with everything she knows, including some stuff I didn't know she knew. One night when W had passed out, D17 say her new gmail account, suspicious emails and pictures. She has concluded on her own that W is having an EA. S13 tells W that she has taken her ring off and is not trying at all. I'm sure there was much worse stuff said.
I focused on calming my kids down. I got the key for the van from D17, and sent the kids in the MacDonalds to wait for me. I returned to the van where W was waiting, and tried to get her to let me drive her home. She insisted on driving herself. She is calmer, and doesn't appear drunk at all. Just very upset. I think she her
manic phase has finally collapsed. I went back and took care of my kids. I had a long talk with them, telling them this was not their fault and mom and I love them very much. I then took D17 to her school party, and took S13 shopping.
A few hours later, W starts texting me:
W: "I don't know what happened. Maybe it's all me"
M: "They both love you and need you.
W: "We'll try to heal tomorrow. ok?"
M: "That's good."
W: "I'm going to call it an early night. Maybe we can decorate together tomorrow?"
M: "Ok. get some rest"
W: "Love you. U r the best"
M: "love you too"
W: "maybe we can go grocery shopping together tomorrow?"
M: "I can do that"
W: "it hurts that they hate me"
M: "noone hates you. I don't. The kids don't."
W: "I feel like I've ruined everything."
M: "We are still here. not ruined."
W: "you are sweet"
M: "Thanks."
I have know idea what to expect tomorrow. But this chaos needs to stop. Maybe she has snapped out of her fog/manic phase. I have my doubts, and I'm worried about tomorrow.
If you managed to read this entire post, please let me know what you think!
I'm again lost.
This stuff seems to happen so fast.
I think you handled last night's crisis very well. You were the strong, calm hero that the family needed right then.
For today, I would focus on the kids and continue with the strong and calm. If W tries to get into talk about the R, just avoid and make it about the kids today.
(((Hugs.))) Praying for you and especially your W and kids.
I believe your first responsibility is to your children. Protect them from being subjected to this terrible behavior from your W. They have already had to go through so much cr@p. I would tell her that she either had to stay on medication (or some type of program) to control her behavior or I would find a Judge that would hear me out so I'd get full custody. I don't know how you live with that! Those poor kids!
Just checking in. How did yesterday go?
(((Sister)))
The past couple of days have been relatively calm. On Sunday, all four of us (me, W, and the kids) went to a movie together. W and I went shopping together. The kids tried warming up mom, but she was clearly very shut down, and non-responsive to them.
Monday was both kids spent most of the day with friends, and both of them ended up spending the night at their friends homes. This left me and W alone in the house together. W curled up on the sofa, and fell asleep. It was clear that she had something to drink, but I don't where she got it. I went to bed early. Unfortunately, D17 came home around 10pm to pick up a few things for her sleepover, and found mom passed out on the couch. She came and said hello to me, and wanted to know if everything was ok in the house. I reassured her.
I stayed up most of the night thinking hard...see the next post.
My thread has been pretty dead lately; If you are reading this, I could use more support right now.
Monday I saw my IC, and updated the sitch with her. I reread both my threads. It's very discouraging; sigh.
I've decided that things must change. Either I purse a D, or me and W make drastic changes. Drastic changes would involve a treatment program for W, specific hard-core work on our relationship, and complete transparency and honesty. W would have to really want this, and truthfully I don't know if I still want it myself.
I've read a lot of threads about patience and time being on my side. I just read Robx's new post, and his stich is years in the making while mine is only 8 weeks old. Nonetheless, I'm no longer willing to wait this out, since my kids are becoming more and more affected.
On the day after Christmas, W is leaving for a week to visit her parents. I had decided that I needed to present my decision to her before she left, and give her the week to decide.
It happened today. It would've been better in person, but we talked over the cellphone. She called me wanting me to remove her from our sprint account so that she can have a private line. It will costs us more to not share the account, so she clearly needs to hide something on the phone. The conversation started as some negotiating over the phone accounts, and then I just told her that we needed to be talking about something else. I told her that things simply couldn't continue. That what happened on Saturday was terrible for her and the kids, and we needed to make a change. I outlined my position as outlined above.
I told her I was unwilling to allow the chaos to continue as it was bad for the kids, and that I wanted a wife that wanted to be married to me. She asked me what change I meant (even though I thought I had already made it clear. I told her that I thought meant a D, unless she wanted to make big radical changes in our relationship. That our old M was dead.
She seemed surprised and angry, but I remained calm. We got into some R talk, including about her EA(or PA) which she still denies, but when presented with the evidence she doesn't refute it. We covered both of our faults in the M so far, and she expressed her frustration that it took her dropping the bomb for me to make any changes. I just acknowledged it, but said we were still left with the same problem. We need to make a change.
We talked for a little over an hour, and then I got off the phone.
I'm filled with sadness, but mainly because I reached that place where I don't want the M anymore.
The next few days will continue to be rough. I admit I'm looking forward to the break when she leaves. I'll spend lots of great time with S13 and D17(before she leaves for her band trip)). I'll spend the rest of my time getting ready for the D which now feels inevitable.
It feels right to me, but I do wonder if 8 weeks is too short a time to travel this distance emotionally.
They have no idea what they want, and what all the consequences are. I am at the exact same point, even the day of the bomb is the exact same day as yours.
Be strong, you will be ok in the end. Be confident, drop the rope.
This is all things that I am struggling with also.
Affirm yourself, improve yourself and your relationship with your kids. You are the one who has to be strong for them.
Your friends will support you, all you have to do is ask them.
I will pray for you my friend.
Hi Awoken, sorry you are having such a hard time. Chiming in with some support, take it for what it's worth.
To answer your last line, 8 weeks, 8 months, 8 years ... there's no fixed schedule to follow. You're on a rollercoaster you didn't sign up for, and nobody knows who long the ride is gonna last. I would suggest 8 weeks is probably a pretty short time to decide if you're done.
You sound tired and emotionally drained, and understandably so. Your W sounds like she is struggling, she probably can't see what she wants, is feeling the pull and potential pangs of withdrawal of the A, unresolved feelings towards the family and you (resentment and love among them), guilt, and just very lost. She may be feeling a lot of negativity towards her failure as a W and mother, and it is warring with the "just wanna be me and happy" feelings.
And what you want really is for her to come out of this and be at a place where you can both survey the debris from your M, decide if you're gonna fix things, and where to even start. I'm guessing you might feel at times like you're in a leaking boat bailing out water, with W just looking at another bucket, and you're wondering when she might take it up and help out, or punch another hole in the boat.
It's obviously not good that the kids are affected. For now, see if you can calm down and take things a step at a time, including setting up some boundaries where the kids are better protected from what's happening ...
Dane and Deep;
thank you so much for the replies and prayers. As simple a thing as they are, it really bolstered me during the past few days just to log in and read your supportive words here. I usually takes me quite a few minutes to type any reply, so I haven't had a chance to respond until now.
Your friends will support you, all you have to do is ask them.
I will pray for you my friend.
This meant a lot to me!
Hi Awoken, sorry you are having such a hard time. Chiming in with some support, take it for what it's worth.
It meant a lot these past few days; thanks again
To answer your last line, 8 weeks, 8 months, 8 years ... there's no fixed schedule to follow. You're on a rollercoaster you didn't sign up for, and nobody knows who long the ride is gonna last. I would suggest 8 weeks is probably a pretty short time to decide if you're done.
I worry it's too short too, but sometimes I think our rollercoaster is missing some tracks. Her drinking and BiPolar makes things seem so risky. As much of a wreck as I am, I think W is in much worse shape. I'm very worried about her, as well as my kids.
I'm guessing you might feel at times like you're in a leaking boat bailing out water, with W just looking at another bucket, and you're wondering when she might take it up and help out, or punch another hole in the boat.
Yes! That's pretty much it. Sometimes she's punching holes, sometimes I think she'll help out.
It's obviously not good that the kids are affected. For now, see if you can calm down and take things a step at a time, including setting up some boundaries where the kids are better protected from what's happening ...
I think this is what I've been failing at the most. I've been trying to set boundaries, and then she blows right by them. The only consequence left that may mean anything may be D. Again, I'm worried that I'm rushing it.
I listened closely to what you said these past few days: I calmed down a lot more, and focused on my R with the kids.
I'm taking W to the airport tomorrow morning at 6am. It's been a difficult few days, and W is now displaying more anger towards me than I think I've ever seen. Here are the long, boring details of the last few days:
Since our discussion on 12/22 I've kept contact to a minimum. We communicated briefly about presents for the kids, making sure we both shared credit, and figuring out who would buy what. It was done mostly via text.
She left early Thursday morning to pick up last present for S13, and then texted me around 10am that she had got it. By 2pm she still hadn't come home, so I took the kids out shopping for their cousins and some lunch.
That evening I started wrapping the remaining presents for the kids, and W objected to me leaving her out of the wrapping. It's not something we have ever really done together in the past, so I was a little surprised. I simply agreed and we wrapped the remaining presents together.
I then noticed W checking her text message on a new cell phone (no wonder she wasn't responding to me or kids texts during the day) We had talked briefly about her wanting to get a private cellphone. It turns out she had already done so, and just wanted out of paying her share of the current family plan. She knew I was going to see the charge on the upcoming credit card bill. I know that when D17 sees the new phone it will upset her.
We then tried to watch a movie together as a family, but W drank her self to sleep again half way through it.
This morning, I got up around 8am and for a first, the kids were still in bed. I started preparing a little breakfast for after opening the presents, then went upstairs to get everyone. Then W came down, and vented her fury at me. She is evidently mad that I made breakfast, had tried to wrap presents without her, and was otherwise interfering with her and the kids. She said lots of other stuff, but it was incoherent to me. We opened presents, and she was visibly upset and very tense the entire time, avoiding any eye contact with me.
Around 2pm I took the kids to my family for christmas dinner. W had been invited, by didn't want to come. She said she would stay home and pack for her trip. We returned by 6pm, so the kids could spend some time with her. She had locked herself in her room, and had not packed anything. Both D17 and S13 were mystified! Finally, around 9 she came downstairs and joined us infront of the TV, but refused to sit in any of the chairs, laying down on the floor. Both kids looked at me with a WTF look on their faces. After an hour of her angry pouting, she retreated upstairs to pack.
I'm assuming I'm still driving her in the morning.
I forgot to mention the best part of christmas day for me. In the past, I've always done a little treasure hunt with lots of clues for my kids. Over the years some of them have been quite complicated.
This year, my kids got me back! It made me so happy that they went to so much trouble just for me, and then to see how much pleasure they got out if it really made the entire thing so meaningful.
Even though this has likely been the worst christmas in many ways, this one memory will be with me forever. I'm so lucky to have D17 and S13 in my life.
Awoken,
I think you need to go back to the drawing board.
I believe your wife is in the throes of an affair. You seem to be discounting that issue. It would explain her behavior, her new phone, her up and down emotions etc...
Also,
You may want to do some deep investigative work on these "so called" trips to see her parents. She had one on Thanksgiving and now one after Christmas?
These are always red flags when a WS is in an affair. ESPECIALLY when they have to FLY out of town. They use the parents or friends as an excuse to take a trip and tell the BS they are visiting friends or family.
I susect that she is having a rendevous with the OM.
Don't buy this without investigating. You are burying your head in the sand if you don't see huge red flags here. She may certainly be staying or seeing her parents, but I wouldn't be one bit surprised that there is something else going on with these trips away. Don't fall for that.
Thanks Gucci,
I do think she is involved in some kind of A. It ways heavy on my mind.
I found an EA very early, and unfortunately I revealed to her that I knew and she very quickly closed down all my sources of info except the online cell phone records. I really wish I had installed a keylogger then!
Her travel has been unpredictable. We have a 3rd car (for D17 when she's ready), and she's starting switching cars. She has kept her cell phone with her at all times, except once and there was nothing on it. I just drove her to the airport, and found out her new cell phone is a blackberry, and she will likely no longer be using the home network to access her facebook and emails.
So I have two issues now:
1) I'm don't know how to get anymore info/intel on her A
2) more importantly, the likely OM is related to her work in such a way that revealing the affair will absolutely lead to her losing her job. In the case of a D, my L tells me this will actually end up costing me a lot more money(taking money away from D17's college and S13's support).
Of course, I'm not at all certain of 1 and 2 above. Just unsure enough that I haven't jumped in yet. I've been focusing on getting through the holidays and taking care of my kids.
One last point, which is a very strange coincidence that I need to check out. Last saturday, after W had her huge fight with the kids and breakdown, she retreated to our neighbors house (nieghbors were out of town). I check the cellphone records, and she only called one person. I searched the number, and it was another parent(father)/volunteer at her school. The coincidence is that he has the same name (first and last!) as the man she had an affair in the 1sy year of our marriage. From what information I could find, it's very unlikely it's the exact same guy, but it's still creepy. I mean, after what had to be one of the worst days of her life, she doesn't call one of her friends or family, but calls this guy instead? It was only a 2 minute call, so I presume she left the number of the home she was staying at and he called there.
D17 left for her week long band trip yesterday and W is visiting her home town for the week too, so it's just me and S13 for the next six days. I have this week off of work, so I'm really looking forward to spending this time with him.
We've got several things planned to do together. I had plans for us to celebrate the new year together, but he just asked if he could spend it at a friends party instead. It's no problem, but now I need to find something for myself. My close friends are all working musicians and all have gigs that night. Any creative suggestions?
I'm a little surprised that W hasn't been in contact with S13 during the past couple of days. She was supposed to text him her new cell phone #, and so far hasn't done it yet or otherwise contacted him. I'm texting with D17 several times a day.
Any New Year's Eve events hosted by your town/city that need volunteers? I know I say this all the time but I have met some of the coolest and most interesting people volunteering.
If your friends are all playing gigs why not go watch them play?
Treat yourself to a fantastic dinner.
Think of something you always wanted to do and go do it.
Any New Year's Eve events hosted by your town/city that need volunteers? I know I say this all the time but I have met some of the coolest and most interesting people volunteering.
Thanks CG! Volunteering is a great idea; I think it's just what I need.
If your friends are all playing gigs why not go watch them play?
Heh, I guess I should have explained that better. They are all trying to make big bucks on the highest paying night of the year for professional musicians(January will be a dead month for most of them.) They are all playing private parties.
Part of my GAL goals now are to nurture friendships outside my music community just for this reason. My friends in music are very close to me. I even think it's a special unique bond we share, but they are not available evenings!
It's been four days since W, and there's been absolutely NC between us. Is a contrast with her Thanksgiving trip. It's oddly relieving.
Even more odd to me is that she still hasn't contacted D13.
I've been checking into volunteer opportunities for new years's eve. I live in a big city, but I still haven't found anything!?!
Check out craigslist for volunteer opps. Also, since you live in a big city- go to meetup.com and see what they have planned.
Good luck
(((Trixi)))
Thanks! meetup.com is cool! They had 50+ events listed in my zipcode. Unfortunately, none for new years eve, but I can see it's gonna be a good resource for me.
I didn't even know that Craigslist had a volunteer section.
I am so shocked that meetup didn't have anything going on NYE!! Up here there are at least 4 things posted and that's just for the groups I'm a member of.
Well, anyway, I sure hope that you find something to do and that you have a great time
My week long break from W is nearly over now. D17's plane from california (she performed in the Rose Parade) returns only an hour after W's plane, so I'm picking them both up from the airport.
I'm dreading seeing W again; it's a very strange feeling this mixture of dread and missing her.
New Years eve was good; I never found a volunteer opportunity. The only ones I found were for driving people too drunk to come home, and I really wanted to do something social. After all, I've spent enough time with W drunk to not want to be around that (I know, that's a little bitter). I ended dropping S13 off at his friends party, and then going to visit some of my friends at their gigs. The mother of S13's friend that was hosting the party invited me to join them, and I returned before midnight to celebrate with them. It was a small group, and we had a good time. 1am, me S13 and his friend had a little jam session: great fun!
Got home around 2am, and saw that W had called the house 6 times trying to reach S13. That's good, since I was wondering why she had limited her contact with him (although he didn't seem to notice). She finally reached via text a little after we got home (she's 3 hours behind us) and said something about not having reception where she was. Her parents home has great reception, so of course I'm imagining her off with some man for NY, or she is avoiding the voice call for a similar reason. So much for my detachment!
Somehow, I was less angry and more sad about it. At a moment of weakness, I sent her a text with the simple "Happy New Year". I regretted it immediately, and turned my phone ringer off. This is so stupid; I spent this week making detailed posts to many people here about this very topic, and then I go ahead and do the opposite of what I know I should be doing. At the moment, I was thinking I needed to show W some kindness, and wishing for a decrease in hostility between us. Sigh.
My new years resolutions have to include living up to what I know is right.
Give me some 2x4's!
Don't beat yourself up. No one is perfect. Just don't do it again.
Quick thing about detachment. Detachment is being ok with the worst case scenario. It's not an absence of emotion towards your W. What you feel about your W and your M is normal.
This stuff takes time. Patience.
GIMA:
Thank you; that's three good points I can hold on to.
it's ok to make mistakes; learn from them
detachment: being ok with the worst case scenario.
time and patience.
---
Affirmations/input from others really help!
post holiday update:
I picked up D17 and W from the airport yesterday. W was still very angry and could barely speak to me, much less look at me. We had about a 45 minute ride home. When both S13 and D17 tried to offer her the front seat, she refused (D17 rolled her eyes). W sat in the back in pouted, while D17 told us about her trip to california.
As soon s we got home, W left to walk one of the dogs, slamming the door on the way out. Again, both kids are wondering what is wrong. She was gone for a couple of hours, and then returned to pout in her room. I suggested that we watch a movie together, and had the kids ask her to join us, and she eventually did.
Still, it was a very tense night.
Today, W seemed much calmer and asked me if I could sit down and talk with her. Part of me wanted to just avoid the conversation, but I'm worried about the tension escalating and how it gets to the kids. I don't want a repeat of two weeks ago, so I said we can talk now as long as it's away from the kids. We went into the basement.
W wanted to know what was next, and I said "what have you decided". She launched into a list of what she is angry about.
Here are the coherent points:
1) she started with that I had offered to leave the house, but had not. I never offered that, I simply had said that I did not want a divorce WAR.
2) she hates being in the guest room.
3) I am now super-dad and it has created distance between her and the kids.
4) she is mad that I have not filed for D?!?
5) I don't care about her at all.
I was very calm, and just told her I understood but didn't agree. I stated my position on each point, not that it mattered.
I told her that I did not want a D, that I thought we had stuff to work out since we had never done any real work on the M. However, I still thought that anymore things that directly harm the kids, like 2 weeks ago, could not continue.
She then said she wants us to sit down and tell the kids about what is going on. I said I agree, what does she want to tell them. She says she doesn't know. I told her that I would be there, but she will have to tell them her decision herself, and I won't lie to them especially since they already basically know what's going on.
There so much more, but this is already too long.
We ended with her saying she'll get to work on the D papers (i think), and then saying she wishes these conversations could end better.
I asked her what I could do to help her. I had to steer a little bit, but we came up with a schedule: M and W nights will be for me with the kids, and T and T will be for her. Weekends are still up in the air. She had no other ideas...
Ok, how off track am I???!?!?
Man, I think you are right ON target. Really.
(1) You remained calm.
(2) You validated her feelings.
(3) You laid out that SHE would tell the kids - WISE choice. Is she going to tell them you are definitely D'ing? Otherwise, why trouble them (unless they already know).
Well done. Althought I am sure it's not where you want to be.
Oh, and DO NOT move out of the master bedroom. That's the marital bed. SHE chose to leave that bed. She can come back if you want her to. But, tough sh!t that the guest room isn't to her liking.
You're doing just fine.
I don't think you're off-track at all -- I think you handled it EXTREMELY WELL!
Calm, validating but not agreeing, asking "how can I help?" (Coach will love that one!), etc.
All the way around, very well done.
STAY . . . THE . . . COURSE.Puppy
Thanks GIMA and Puppy!
I'm getting more confident, but I still second guess much of what I'm doing. Your encouragement really makes a difference.
Today, my W continued with her strange behavior.
However, it really didn't seem to affect me much at all. It makes me a little sad: not because of what she's doing, but because I just don't care anymore. I didn't wonder what she was thinking, or what she had planned.
Basically, she was very friendly all day. She texted me several times from work, and even called once. I kept it all very short.
She had problems with her car, and called to give me an update on it. I simply told her that of course I would split the bill with her, and then told her I had to go. When she got home from work, she gave me details of her plans for the night and left me alone with the kids (it's my night). Later that night, she came into the master bedroom to iron her clothes (she's been carefully doing that when I'm not home). She made small talk about her work and trip to Seattle. I just listened, and then said I needed to go to sleep.
Two days ago, she wouldn't look at me, or sit in the same room.
Hopefully I've developed some much needed patience.
Thanks GIMA and Puppy!
I'm getting more confident, but I still second guess much of what I'm doing. Your encouragement really makes a difference.
Right now, if it's the right thing to do for YOU and the kids, then it's the right thing.
"Strength and Honor."
-Coach
Awoken
I have to agree, you handled that conversation very well!
You told her that you did not agree with a D and that she would have to tell the kids which I think is very important.
From what you wrote, your W sounds conflicted to me. I also had the same convo with my W the other night about doing "real work" on the M as in both of us in a concerted effort.
At any rate, I think you were on your game with this one and you need to keep it going!
Thanks GIMA and Junco! Again, these affirmations make a difference!
After my talk sunday with W, we agreed to me watching the kids on MW, and W on TT, and the weekends are still up in the air.
Over the holidays we had some serious conflicts over who was spending time with the kids, and I took a stand that all communication should be between me and W, and that we should'nt put the kids in the middle of those kinds of decisions.
SO, After sundays talk, I sent W an email about my upcoming performance out of town. I'll be gone for 4 days over a weekend, and I've arranged for my father to take the kids to school.
I then said I would like to have the kids over the long weekend Jan 15-18 (MLK day is no school).
I then confirmed that I was agreeing that she could take the kids to Seattle over spring break in April.
She has not responded at all, and I feel like I need a reply from her about MLK weekend. I'm thinking about sending her another email about it saying "if I don't hear back from you in 24 hours, I'll assume that I'll have the kids with me that weekend".
Is this a good approach?
Yes, although you might want to give her one more "Did you get this? I need to make plans" e-mail, first.
Puppy
Thanks Puppy for the spoon feeding. I'll use that exactly.
This morning I forwarded the old email, with exactly what Puppy suggested: "Did you get this? I need to make plans"
W responded this afternoon with "I thought I replied. Yes you can take the kids that weekend".
Then sent two more emails, saying "please respond, I want to make sure you got my email".
I was really expecting a fight from her, and I was prepared to not be emotional at all. Maybe her L told her she needed to play nice?
Awoken,
How are things going for you today? Glad to hear she decided to "play nice" for once.
JG
hi JG!
thanks for checking in. I think I'm doing better than I have in a while. When I read my threads when I first got here, I was a complete basket case. I'm still on a roller coaster, and I need to stay focused and keep my calm.
For example, yesterday night was my night with the kids. We just started a weekly trade-off. MW is my night, TT is W's night, although we are both still in the house. I was spending time with D17, she told me that my W had run out to do some "errands". D17 knows that in the past that meant that W was going to the liquor store. My first thought was "she's going to her lawyer to start the filing process". I had to do a quick mental check to stop myself from the usual panic, and remember that it doesn't matter what she is doing. Sigh, one moment I think I want a D myself, and then I'm worried that she is filing. It is very tiring.
Still, I had a great time with my kids last night. I helped S13 practice his music for an upcoming audition, and had a long talk with D17 about her ex-boyfriend and the drama at her school (I just listened!) I'm not sure when my W returned, but she stayed in her room all night.
Ok, here's some more venting about W's weird behavior:
She usually sleeps with one of our dogs (the one that is devoted to her, and looks for her all day long). Last night she refused when S13 tried to let the dog in her room. He ended sleeping on the couch with the dog. W told me the last weekend that she is "kinda done with the pets too". She's always been a devoted pet lover. So I guess her WAW stuff extends to the pets now too since she can't get me out of the house.
I am so proud of you. You're doing a great job!
Wow and thanks Sandi! that's just what I needed today.
W just told me that she saw her lawyers on Monday and she has filed for D. She will give me the papers sometime next week.
At least she isn't having me served.
Somehow she thought that collaboration and mediation where the same things. Her lawyers (a very expensive firm) want her to do collaboration.
I was pretty calm when she told me. I asked her for some details of what she was asking for in the divorce. She said we could work out 50/50 custody depending on what we work out. She says she is asking for spousal support, but the amount isn't determined. I thought that those things were specified in the filing papers, but I guess I'll have to wait to find out.
My hands are shaking, and I've got an odd mix of distress and calm which is pretty scary. She just left to go swimming, and I'm home supervising the kids while they visit with friends. I need to hold it together until late tonight.
I told my W that we needed to tell the kids what was going on before the weekend of was over, and better tonight than right before they go back to school. She finally agreed. She said I'm going to "throw her under the bus". I said, "No I won't, I'll say that I love her and I'll respect her decision. I won't lie to my kids especially since they already know intimately that she is the one that wants out of the M".
this is gonna be so hard. I've been preparing but I honestly wasn't expecting this so soon. Today is three months since the bomb.
Friends, today I need your support more than ever.
my W came home, and we called our kids down to the living room. W tell them that "mom and dad are getting a divorce" and looks at me and says "what do you want to add?". I said "please tell them what we agreed upon". After many seconds of awkward silence, she tells them "I filed for divorce on Monday". I then told them "I love your mother and I want her to be happy. I respect her decision. We both love you very much."
After more silence, I asked my kids if they had any questions.
D17 had a few basic ones, and S13 said it was pretty simple and he didn't want to ask anything. They then asked to be alone so they could talk to each other.
The look of despair, anger, grief, and ultimately resignation on their faces it the worst thing I've ever seen.
my W came home, and we called our kids down to the living room. W tell them that "mom and dad are getting a divorce" and looks at me and says "what do you want to add?". I said "please tell them what we agreed upon". After many seconds of awkward silence, she tells them "I filed for divorce on Monday". I then told them "I love your mother and I want her to be happy.I respect her decision. We both love you very much."
Okay, I admit, I am not a good DB'er..But.. WHY would you "respect" her decision?! How do you respect someone's choice to dismantle the family? And why say that you love her and want her to be happy? You love your kids and eating ice cream 24/7 would "make them happy", but you wouldn't endorse it, would you?
I'm sorry for what you are going thru- I know it must hurt like he11-- I just feel like your wife is getting off the hook for the CHOICES SHE IS MAKING!
And why say that you love her and want her to be happy? You love your kids and eating ice cream 24/7 would "make them happy", but you wouldn't endorse it, would you?
Because he does still love her and wants her to be happy. No need to lie to the children. Sure you wouldn't want to feed your kids ice cream 24/7, but he has no control over what his W is doing. He never said that he wanted the D. I think they will understand where he is coming from.
For me-- I don't want my kids to think I 'respect' bailing on a commitment.
"Gee, Son, you committed to playing baseball this season, but since it doesn't make you happy, go ahead and quit. I respect that."
"Sure, you borrowed that money and should pay it back, but since it is impinging on your going out to party, I agree that you shouldn't pay it back. I respect that."
Yes, I'm sure he loves her, and I am sure he wants her to be happy, but that doesn't mean you 'respect' how someone chooses to achieve that. Prescription drugs "make people happy" but it's not good for them.
I'm probably getting stuck on semantics or something. I totally think it's great that the kids were told they were loved by both...but the other.... just doesn't sit right with me. I think silence would have been better on the subject of respect.
edited to add--
Just because you don't "respect" the choice someone made doesn't mean that you don't love them or want them to be happy.
The look of despair, anger, grief, and ultimately resignation on their faces it the worst thing I've ever seen.
(((Awoken)))
This just broke my heart! I'm so sorry you had to experience that with your children.
I think you handled it well. You were firm in expecting your W to say the things that the both of you had agreed upon and laid the filing where it belonged. I think it's a good thing that the kids wanted to talk to each other alone. They may have more questions after awhile. Just prepare yourself.
I guess now the hard part starts. It's never easy even when you know it's coming, is it?
(((Awoken)))
I am sorry that you and your kids are going through this.
There is not much I cansay but you are in my thoughts and prayers.
Trixi,
I appreciate your what you are saying. I guess the message that I was trying to give what that I respected that my wife had made a decision. Unfortunately, both my kids already know intimately that I did not want a divorce.
I knew this conversation was coming...someday (I was still surprised it was today!). I've been rehearsing/researching it for the past week, reading many threads here. Here's what I've been thinking: Both my kids still strongly identify with my W, and its important to me that they have a good relationship with her. My W has done a lot over the past 3 months to injure her relationship with them, and I'm sure today didn't help. I have a feeling that my kids sense/feel that they made up of 50% W and 50% me. Any anger with W (or me!) may ultimately come back on themselves. I don't want to teach them how to "dismantle a family", but it looks like they are getting the lesson no matter what I do. I'm trying to balance what is causing the least damage I suppose.
I know I have more conversations in the immediate future with them. Please keep talking; I need the input!
Kara and Sister: thanks. It's a hard night. I was glad to log back in and see some replies.
D17 and S13 are now surprising calm. they are playing rockband on the xbox. I wish I had their composure. I'm calm in front of them. I just made them dinner, then ran upstairs when I felt my feelings coming to the surface again.
W left the house. She tried to give me a hug before she left and said "I'm sorry I'm doing this to you". I couldn't look at her.
I'm getting angrier. I mean, all these years she's never asked for MC, she's never bought one relationship book. There have been problems, and when I confronted her about her emotional distance she always said I needed to be patient with her and it was a product of her meds/her bi-polar/her past, that she wanted to be married forever and I needed to trust her. When her friend surprised her H with a divorce, we talked openly about how bad it was for their kids that they never tried any MC. I know I've missed so many things, and I've been neglectful, but after three months of self examination I honestly don't think she has tried.
I've read
smart cookies post and seriously reconsidered where my W may be coming from. I can't remember a single R talk that my W started. It's always been me wanting to work on our M.
So I have to ask myself, why would I want to be married to someone like this? I understand this, but not in my broken heart.
I just took off my ring.
I am sure your kids will have questions for you later. For right now they may just be sticking together and discussing it with one another.
I guess your W may be feeling some guilt over the fact that she knows she is hurting you and the kids, hence the hug.
Make some time for your kids when they are ready and be good to yourself. You have done what you could to save your M.
I re-read Ready2Change's thread on "how to tell the kids".
I thought I had prepared well, but I left out one important thing: "I don't think this is the solution..."
I think it's likely to be ok though. Again, both D17 and S13 know entirely too much about our sitch over the past 3 months, and know I've been doing all the work trying to save our M. I've done my best to keep them out of the middle, but it hasn't been possible.
Still, I don't think they think I approve of a D.
I am sure they don't but you can have that conversation with them if you feel you need to.
@Awoken-- thank you for not taking what I was saying the wrong way. I mean, I really felt awful for you and your children and I guess my hackles got up. And you just said it with your last post "I don't think this is the solution". That is what I felt was "missing."
I 'get' that your wife is her own person and you can respect that she is her own person with her own choices to make and maybe that is what the kids walked away with. They have a lot to process right now and it is good that they have each other to lean on.
YOU can get thru this; you are a good man. You can look in the mirror and know that you tried. ((Awoken))
So I have to ask myself, why would I want to be married to someone like this? I understand this, but not in my broken heart.
I just took off my ring.
I'm so sorry, Awoken. I got a lump in my throat for your kids, and I don't even know them. This must be incredibly hard for you tonite.
Puppy
thank you for not taking what I was saying the wrong way. I mean, I really felt awful for you and your children and I guess my hackles got up.
Thank you Trixi. I need the input, and really appreciated your reply.
I'm really angry at her for dismantling our M and doing this to our kids. I know she is suffering, her selfishness is infuriating.
I too don't want to just let her "off the hook" for these choices she is making. I've never been this angry at her before. I hope I'm doing a good job of containing it; I'll vent when I'm alone.
Puppy, thanks for your support and kind words.
I know I shouldn't beat myself up now, but the reality is that my w and I have failed our children. I can't imagine what lessons they have learned over the past three months.
Yes, you have, but you have owned your part and stand ready to work on the issues. That, at least, should make you feel good. You're a good dad -- that's obvious -- and they're going to need you now more than ever.
Puppy
I don't think you failed your children. You and your W failed each other as partners but that doesn't mean you are a failure as a parent.
Your children are about the age my sister and I were when our parents divorce began. As strange as this sounds my sister and I never had respect for our dad as he treated us and my mom very poorly. In turn, my sister and I both lost a ton of respect for our mother over the years for allowing such crappy behavior from my father.
Now my sister and I are *very* close to my mom and we have been for years but she did have to earn our respect back for allowing all she did for so long. SOMEBODY has to be the parent and make good choices for the children. Even at a young age my sister and I were very aware of that fact. I think my mom realizes now that she chose to stay in a marriage where she and her children were treated poorly only resulted in her trying to control *something* (in our case that *something* was my sister and me). My mom worked very hard to rectify the errors of her ways. My sister and I had to work hard too but in the end it was all worth it and my sister and I would not trade the beautiful R we share with our mom for anything.
My sister and I knew deep down my mom wanted her marriage to be better and my mom was in MC alone for almost two decades. But everybody should have their limits for what they are willing to tolerate when children are involved.
I would not let your children know you respect their mother's decision but I would tell them you ACCEPT it.
It may take some time but your children will eventually establish a lifelong foundation of respect for the parent who acts like a parent even in the thick of a divorce (that will be you!).
I don't know what state you are in but if your W makes a settlement offer without specific numbers (A) she is getting very poor counsel which is good for you (B) a settlement without specifics is considered "raw" and is the best you can hope for as a skilled attny will take a raw settlement offer and turn it in your favor.
Decline her request for spousal support (and that is all it is at this point, a request) and be very firm about a move out date for her. Let her know you will give her xx number of days to set aside some money that SHE EARNED to establish her own housing while still contributing to the household bills.
(((Awoken)))
I just posted to you on my thread though I should have probably posted on your thread.
(((Hugs)))
(((Serenity))) Thanks; I posted a reply on your thread, just cause it made more sense to keep it there.
It's been a day since we talked to our kids about W filing for D.
They are coping in different ways, and of course I'm worried about them.
D17 has poured her energies into a new boyfriend. It's gonna be a complicated relationship for her, and she's really rushed into it. They made their relationship "official" last night, a few hours after we had our D talk. First, he's in college, and his mother doesn't approve of the relationship so he wants them to keep it hidden. I'm glad D17 tells me all about this, but I'm just worried she's making poor choices. It's not reall like her
S13 spent most of the day in bed, saying he felt sick. He's taking it badly, and is pretty depressed. I know he needs time. I left him alone most of the day, just checking in on him. I managed to get him to go out for dinner and to the grocery store. I told him I needed help with the errand, but I really just wanted to get him out of the house.
W left early in the morning to have lunch with her girlfriend, and didn't return until early evening. It's just as well. Right now, I can't look at her. I need to work on that; I just want to be cheerful and indifferent.
Your children will ALWAYS remember the "day after" you were there with and for them and their mom was out playing with her friends.
I know this is so very hard but you did the BEST thing you could have done today!
^ <--- high five
Awoken,
I've pretty much been just a lurker here on your thread, but I thought I'd come on over and comment on something you said in a post over at Serenity's
I've been posting in other threads now, trying to "pay it forward" as Deep just posted. I worry about saying the wrong things, but then I just remember how many times I've wished for any reply just to know that someone was out there, so I post something.
I know I've said this many times, but it's true and bears repeating often,
especially when we want to just know someone is out there (and when this board seems extra busy and populated as it has recently).
Look at your thread on the Newcomers list. Look at anybody's thread. You'll see the "Reviews" column and the "Replies" column. The ratio is almost always more than 10:1.
Even when people don't reply for
any reason, they are there, lurking, reading along, commiserating, praying, learning etc.
To me, a "View" is an interest, almost as good as a "Reply."
None of us on this board is ever
really alone.
And Serenity's right. When wisdom fails, sometimes a simple "Hang in there" can make all the difference to someone.
Hang in there, Awoken.
CityGirl:
Thanks for that encouragement. Somehow I didn't even think of it that way. Right now my kids seem a little angry at both of us (especially S13), and I understand it. But you are right, in the end the will know I am here for them.
Gardener:
Thank you, again! You made this point to me once before, and it's been easy for me to forget it. I've even told others the same thing. Sometimes when I read a thread and I want to post, I just don't know what to say so I say a prayer for them and their spouse.
So today, I've got a new lawyer to interview. This will be the third I've talked to, and I hope I feel more comfortable than I have with the other two. I think my W is preparing for a real battle, or at least her lawyers want her to.
So today, I've got a new lawyer to interview. This will be the third I've talked to, and I hope I feel more comfortable than I have with the other two. I think my W is preparing for a real battle, or at least her lawyers want her to.
I hear Coach saying "You can handle it." And you can.
(((Awoken)))-
I'm so sorry you had to face that challenge this weekend.....
I hadn't read your post until this morning because I only come here from the work computer. You are being so strong--good for you. My dad always used to tell me (he's passed away) that just do what is right because the only people you have to answer to is God and yourself when you lay your head on your pillow at night. Just those words alone have helped me thru many a dark night in this journey. I'm hoping today is a better day for you.
On the bright side-now you have gotten thru "the talk"-you will never have to have THAT day again.
You are in my prayers-friend.
((((JanuaryGirl)))
I just posted in your thread, and hadn't had a chance to check mine yet. Sound like we both had tough weekends.
you're so right, I never have to do "the talk" again. That's a positive that hadn't hit me until just now when you said it for me. For the past few weeks I've been preparing for it, dreading it, obsessing about it really. I just realized that the burden of it has been lifted from me now; I've passed through it and did my best to do right. I can do the other days ahead of me too.
Wow, and thank you!
it's funny how these lessons just come on us at different times. Serenity gave me a great post about how we all help each other here, even unwittingly. At the beginning of my sitch, I really thought that my faith in god was going to be extinguished, and I'm finding it getting stronger everyday.
Thank you for your prayers. You and your H are in mine as well.
(((Awoken)))
I wanted to check in and see how you are doing today - JG is right, you will never have to have this conversation again and I am glad you can take comfort in that...I was over on a different thread and I posted a verse that seems to fit here as well...
"Cast all your anxiety on him, because he cares for you. Discipline yourselves, keep alert. Like a roaring lion your adversary the devil prowls around, looking for someone to devour. Resist him, steadfast in your faith. . . .
And after you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, support, strengthen, and establish you."
1 Peter 5: 7-10
At the beginning of my sitch, I really thought that my faith in God was going to be extinguished, and I'm finding it getting stronger everyday.
I thought this as well - However I am learning...This is what God is here for - This is His chance to shine - His chance to come in & show you exactly what He is capable of - Remember this isn't our will, this is His will...His will may just be you and your spouse going your separate ways because He has something better for you down the road -
Re-read this - "And after you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, support, strengthen, and establish you." - Keep reading it until you truly in your heart believe it...
No suffering is forever though some days it sure feels like it.
(((Hugs)))
it's funny how these lessons just come on us at different times. Serenity gave me a great post about how we all help each other here, even unwittingly. At the beginning of my sitch, I really thought that my faith in god was going to be extinguished, and I'm finding it getting stronger everyday.
I'm so glad to hear this. You'll be surprised what strength you can gain by relying on Him.
"Eyes have not seen, nor ears heard, nor has entered into the hearts of man, those things that God has prepared for those who loves Him." 1Cor2:9
it's funny how these lessons just come on us at different times. Serenity gave me a great post about how we all help each other here, even unwittingly. At the beginning of my sitch, I really thought that my faith in god was going to be extinguished, and I'm finding it getting stronger everyday.
I'm so glad to hear this. You'll be surprised what strength you can gain by relying on Him.
"Eyes have not seen, nor ears heard, nor has entered into the hearts of man, those things that God has prepared for those who loves Him." 1Cor2:9
Man, that's worth saying over and over.
Re-read this - "And after you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, support, strengthen, and establish you." - Keep reading it until you truly in your heart believe it...
You'll be surprised what strength you can gain by relying on Him.
"Eyes have not seen, nor ears heard, nor has entered into the hearts of man, those things that God has prepared for those who loves Him." 1Cor2:9
I've been sitting here reading these two verses over and over. I really needed them tonight. Our home is so sad right now, I need all the strength I can find. All four of us are despairing.
I almost didn't even log in tonight, but somehow felt I needed to. then I almost didn't look at my thread, but somehow felt I should.
Your gifts were here waiting for me.
(((Awoken)))
"Be still and know that I am God." Psalm 46:10
That verse got me through many a day. Some days I would look at it almost every hour.
Rest assured that God has plans for you. The road may seem rough,rugged and poorly lit but you will see your way out.
(((Awoken)))
The road may seem rough,rugged and poorly lit but you will see your way out.
What a true statement. For many of us here. And here is another verse that strengthens me:
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.
-Proverbs 3:5-6
I know you had "the talk". Finnally got caught up.
I thought I had prepared well, but I left out one important thing: "I don't think this is the solution..."
There will be opportunities to state YOUR believes in the future. Your kids need information to form their own belief's. Planting the seeds now will help them when they are adults:
"I don't feel that D is the answer to M problems."
I am so sorry to hear about the pain in your family. Just remember that everything will be OK. Keep standing up for "the right thing". The most important thing for the kids is to have frequent and equal contact with BOTH parents. It falls on your shoulders to make this happen. Keep doing the right thing.
Do work - you can handle it.
Two things that work really well for me:
Stay in the present. ( The past is history, the future is a mystery. The toltec books I have listed got me out of my head and back into the present. I highly recommend reading them.)
Keep your focus on every positive, every moment of the day. Start with enjoying your first three breaths of air. Enjoy the days you are still a single household family. Just because you and W are not getting alone, does not mean you can not enjoy her when she interacts with the kids.
(((CityGirl)))
Thank you so much for your detailed reply about your own experience with your parents divorce. It gave me a lot to think about.
I've always thought that W and I were a great parenting team, but I see it differently now. My kids HAVE been affected by much of the stuff that has gone on in our home, and I've been in denial about a lot of of it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not beating myself up about this (anymore I hope!. I do need to understand it, and become the best father I can.
Several things you said really resonated with me.
It may take some time but your children will eventually establish a lifelong foundation of respect for the parent who acts like a parent even in the thick of a divorce (that will be you!).
I've certainly got some new challenges as a parent now. Both D17 and S13 are pushing limits, as they deal with our sitch. As STBXW tunes out, both kids know that she is the "yes" person. I know W is dealing with some of the same issues, as the kids are angry with her and she needs/wants their approval.
I'll keep your post in mind as I do what's right, even when the kids don't approve.
(sigh, this was the first time I've used STBXW instead of W)
(((Kara)))
(((Weldingguy))
thank you for your verses; I've made a list for myself.
The support here means so much to me.
Ready2Change,
I'm so glad you're here. Your thread (and other posts) have been inspiring to me. Since my first day here, your signature has stayed in my mind and been my own direction:
"what's best for my kids is best for me" So many times, when I've had a hard time making a decision, these words have been my guide. Thank you so much.
Keep your focus on every positive, every moment of the day. Start with enjoying your first three breaths of air. Enjoy the days you are still a single household family. Just because you and W are not getting alone, does not mean you can not enjoy her when she interacts with the kids.
Admittedly it's only been a few days since I found out W is filing for D, but I'm really struggling with this. I'm even surprised by the strength of my own reactions to it. Right now, if my W is in the same room with me, I can't look at her, much less speak. Yesterday, I was cooking dinner for the kids, and she came into the kitchen. My entire body actually turned away from her. I literally thought, what am I doing?!?!? I have been thinking about Coach's advice to act as if everything is ok, and I'm fine going on with my life. I'm have NOT been acting that way.
I really do agree with what you said in the quote above, about enjoying the single-family household. But I can't imagine doing it right now, but I want to. I am avoiding any confrontations, and I'm avoiding letting the kids see this. However, I think I've got to get a handle on this soon.
Maybe my strong feelings will diminish? do you have any advice?
Awoken,
I am right where you are right now. And I think the goal for right now is to hang in there and be civil. I think it is unreasonable for us to "like" our STBXW's (there, that's the 1st time I think I've used that term). Doesn't mean we have to engage them or do things for them. Just enjoy the kids and take the high road.
Thanks GIMA,
I am enjoying my kids. It's sad though, because even now S13 is wanting to include W in our activities. He's plainly had a plan to reunite us this entire time.
We were planning a ski trip for this weekend, but now I'm having to rethink the cost of it. I told both the kids that I was looking for a lower cost alternative, and S13 asked if maybe Mom would pitch in if we invited her. sigh. I'm gonna need to explain this in more detail to him.
D17 said she is gonna be mad at mom for at least a little while, and wants to confront her. She's frustrated because S13 made her promise no more confrontations. The last time she did that, all hell broke lose. I told her to be patient, and that there would be time in the future for her to talk about these things, and that her relationship with her mom was very important to me.
I got an email from W this morning. She's a little upset because S13 mentioned to her that I may not be taking the kids out of town this weekend. Evidently W invited one of her friends to come and spend the weekend (a pro-divorce friend of course). My agreement with W was that we would communicate about our exact travel plans for this weekend before I left with the kids.
I replied via email that I wished she had communicated with me about her friend coming. In light of her filing for D, I couldn't afford the trip I had planned and I was looking for low cost alternatives.
She replied that she and her friend would be using the house, but would try to stay out of the way.
I'm on the fence: do I stay home for the weekend and hope that W decides to spend her own money finding a place for her and her friend (unlikely), do I stay home and deal with the tension, or do I go ahead an head out of town despite the cost?
What do YOU want to do? What is the right thing to do for YOU?
HINT: SHE, and what she thinks, don't matter.
thanks GIMA,
I want to tell her to go some place else with her friend, but I think that would be too volatile right now. I don't know if it's the RIGHT thing to do.
I want to go sking with my kids, but it's expensive. S13 is feeling guilty that mom isn't coming. I don't know if it's the RIGHT thing to do.
I'm feeling unclear right now; sigh!
thanks GIMA,
I want to tell her to go some place else with her friend, but I think that would be too volatile right now. I don't know if it's the RIGHT thing to do.
I want to go sking with my kids, but it's expensive. S13 is feeling guilty that mom isn't coming. I don't know if it's the RIGHT thing to do.
I'm feeling unclear right now; sigh!
You feel unclear b/c you are thinking like her husband. So, don't. At this point, she has, for all intents and purposes, left you. So what she may say/do don't matter anymore.
As far as staying at the house, if that is what you want to do, then do it. To he!! with what SHE thinks, says, does. HER PROBLEM, not yours.
I really do agree with what you said in the quote above, about enjoying the single-family household. But I can't imagine doing it right now, but I want to.
All you have is "right now". Everything in the past is now just your story. Do not let your past control you. I can say that about 100 different ways. Enjoy the moment. Just be there, no intentions, no expectations. Be happy. If today was your last day on earth, what would you be doing? Live that way. When you wake up in the morning, this is the first day of the rest of your life, what do you want to do?
I am avoiding any confrontations
is this a 180?
and I'm avoiding letting the kids see this
is this a 180?
Link to one of my "Wakeup call" days
great
It's sad though, because even now S13 is wanting to include W in our activities. He's plainly had a plan to reunite us this entire time.
Express your feelings and validate your kids.
We were planning a ski trip for this weekend, but now I'm having to rethink the cost of it
Go and enjoy every minute.
. I told both the kids that I was looking for a lower cost alternative,
"I decided we are still going. We have enough money to cover this trip."
and S13 asked if maybe Mom would pitch in if we invited her. sigh.
Yes this is tough.
D17 said she is gonna be mad at mom for at least a little while
she has every right to be angry. Validate her anger.
I told her to be patient, and that there would be time in the future for her to talk about these things, and that her relationship with her mom was very important to me.
Nice. I have changed my parenting style with my kids. I follow "parenting with love and logic" advise. Most of the time I give my kids several choices. I ask questions.
"I can see that you are angry. Do you think it would be better to argue with your mom now, or wait till you calm down when you can talk to her about why you are angry?"
Just my 2 cents
(((Ready2Change)))
Thanks for your posts. I'm going on the trip, I'm gonna need the break anyway. Your advice was/is good. your supportive words too.
Not being confrontational is a big 180 for me with W. I have always wanted to get to the bottom of the problem. I've been mostly non-confrontational lately. Not so good tonight though, see next post.
The kids don't see me angry at W. I've been defending her to them this entire time, trying to keep their relationship with W intact.
I need to vent, and get this self-pity out of my system.
It's a worse week really than I thought. I think I've been suppressing some of my feelings all week, although I knew there was something deep down.
I had a feeling I was going to get the D papers from W tomorrow, and I thought I should prepare for it and not let her surprise me. I looked them up online. Wow, I wasn't at all prepared for the level of emotion seeing the actual papers had on me. Honestly, sitting here right now, I'm still shaking with grief and anger. Something about seeing the papers online, on public record, just made everything very real, including what it must take for my W to be able to do that.
I suppose it's just a standard lawyer tactic, but she is asking for basically everything: primary custody of the kids, child support, the house, permanent alimony, and for me to pay her legal fee's. We will basically be spending D17's college fund and my retirement paying for this D.
I've come to some strong realizations about my role in the failure in our M, but not of them warrant this kind of treatment.
My wife's biggest complaint apparently is that I didn't purchase a new bed room suite when she asked, and she doesn't know who she is. This just doesn't make any sense to me. I know she is lonely and hurting, hurting deeply. But this destruction of our family and financial future for the kids is just wrong. I've been taking care of her for the past 17 years. What exactly merits this?
I snapped a little tonight. Not really a confrontation.
me: "I just saw the divorce papers. You are asking for primary custody!"
W: "no, joint"
me: "I quote: joint legal, primary physical custody"
much later, w: "I have emailed them about the wording"
I really should have waited until I could post here, or waiting until I could reach a friend on the phone.
I was right to expect the papers; she left them on my nightstand. Right after I posted last night I went to bed and found them.
There were some additional papers that I had not seen online. Primarily a letter from her lawyer. There is one possible positive: they are requesting that we go to mediation. However, my Lawyer told me on Tuesday that all D's in my county are required to attempt mediation, before going to court.
Another thing. W seems to have changed in her mind when she dropped the bomb on me, and it is reflected in the papers. She has our separation as starting on Oct 8th. She dropped the bomb on me on Oct 23rd. She first mentioned this to me several weeks ago, and it just shows how much I defer to her that I thought to myself "I'm so confused that I can't even remember the right date". It's easy to go back to the start of my thread and find the true date; I don't know why I just went along with her revision. I also sent an email to my MIL the day after (oct 24).
I haven't really worried about this, but now I wonder if there is a legal reason she would want the "seperation" to be earlier. Most likely her A started between oct 8 and 23.
So, this is the true start of the legal process. I'll deliver the papers to my L's office this morning.
I can't believe I'm doing this.
Awoken,
The papers don't change the reality of your situation...
they simply put them in print form. I remember years ago
finding out "on paper" that my dad had terminal cancer and
I was very freaked out and then I realized that it didn't
change the reality just how I was viewing it.
You are strong. You are a great dad. You will get thru
this and come out the other side.
Also go on that trip this weekend and enjoy every minute of it.
Someday your kids won't want a "family vacation." They
will want to be with friends more. GO AND HAVE FUN!!
The kids don't see me angry at W. I've been defending her to them this entire time, trying to keep their relationship with W intact.
This is not your job. This is HER problem. Let her own it. Be there to support your kids, but your W has to make or break HER R with the kids.
When you try to defend your W, you are really just trying to save your W from the problem SHE has created.
I snapped a little tonight. Not really a confrontation.
me: "I just saw the divorce papers. You are asking for primary custody!"
W: "no, joint"
me: "I quote: joint legal, primary physical custody"
much later, w: "I have emailed them about the wording"
Having, and showing some, emotion is understandable and ok. As long as you are in control.
But, do not have anymore "legal" discussions with her. That's what the L's are for. It's a great "out" to keep you from having to engage her, especially when she starts seeing you aren't going to give her what everything she wants. "W, you picked this fight, so, we will just let the L's deal with it."
I can't believe I'm doing this.
Shake it off. The truth is, NOTHING HAS CHANGED from before the filing. NOTHING.
I understand the impact of looking at your name in a D petition and there it is - in black and white. And I understand the shaking and anger and hurt. I did the same thing, and I am a trial L who you would think has been de-sensitized to that type of thing.
I am used to sitting in the L chair. It is quite another situation to be sitting in the "client" chair for the first time. I will NEVER again look at a client meeting quite the same.
You can handle it. Just get through today. The sun will come up tomorrow and the next day and the next, just like it did yesterday and the day before that.
Feel your emotions and let them flow through and OUT of you. That's not only ok, but necessary.
Then throw yourself into the ski trip with the kids.
The kids don't see me angry at W.
Expressing your feelings in positive ways helps the kids.
I ask my kids "Is it OK to be happy? (YES) Then it is OK to be angry" We talk about is it better to walk away and deal with your anger or hit someone etc.....
"I am very angry about mom's decision, but I respect her bla bla bal...."
"I am sad about the way things are right now....."
I've been defending her to them this entire time, trying to keep their relationship with W intact.
I strongly suggest that you stay out of the middle of their relationship. (Look up the victim triangle). Work on you relationship with the kids. Let her be responsible for her relationship with them. Validate your kids. Good place to practice.
"You look angry."
"how does that make you feel."
"I can see why that would make you angry"
"How can I help"
A few things:
First, How can we help?
Second, "What is best for the kids is frequent and equal contact with BOTH parents" was my focus during D. Use that if you want.
Third, Right now is the time for you to determine "What YOU want". You now know what she wants and it is in writing.
We are here for you during this difficult time.
My wife's biggest complaint apparently is that I didn't purchase a new bed room suite when she asked, and she doesn't know who she is. This just doesn't make any sense to me. I know she is lonely and hurting, hurting deeply. But this destruction of our family and financial future for the kids is just wrong. I've been taking care of her for the past 17 years. What exactly merits this?
I snapped a little tonight. Not really a confrontation.
me: "I just saw the divorce papers. You are asking for primary custody!"
W: "no, joint"
me: "I quote: joint legal, primary physical custody"
much later, w: "I have emailed them about the wording"
My wife's only stated marital complaints -- when her parents, and our adult daughters asked her -- during her affair were:
1. Puppy spends too much time on his computer. (This was our nightly routine, with her on one couch watching TV and me on the other couch, on my laptop and sometimes also watching TV. Granted, not a real-good recipe for marital intimacy and excitement, but I was IN THE SAME ROOM with her, like SIX FEET AWAY!).
2. Puppy spends too much time "at those damned ballfields." (I coach my kids' baseball teams; this was time I was spending WITH OUR CHILDREN, not out at bars, or golfing with buddies. Meanwhile, she's spending her time meeting OM in darkened parking lots, and hooking up at his friend's house for midday sex).
Oh, and she asked for "immediate, exclusive, temporary residence of the marital home." I said "YOU have an affair, and you're kicking ME out of our home?" She knew we were having severe financial problems, and I couldn't afford anywhere else to live. She was basically either trying to kick me out on the streets, or I'd have to go live with her parents). She said "I didn't know the lawyer put that in there," and "Oh, she (the lawyer) told me that's just stuff we put in there as our opening position. You're supposed to negotiate with me, and offer something else."
Unbelievable, this fog.
Puppy
I know it's said often here, but really, I don't know how I could possibly handle everything without the support that I receive here.
The more input I get, the better I seem to handle things.
Thank you everyone. I read the recent posts before we packed up the care to leave town. I figured I would have a little time up here to post replies, but traffic was so bad that we just barely arrived at our hotel.
Right now I'm in a single hotel room with three teenagers, my two kids and D17's best friend. (She's super positive!). We got one room to save money, but it's close quarters!
I don't enough privacy and time to post much right now.
I'm having a great time right now, despite everything. Your support has a big part in it!
...Right now I'm in a single hotel room with three teenagers, my two kids and D17's best friend. (She's super positive!). We got one room to save money, but it's close quarters...I'm having a great time right now, despite everything....
And that is the way it's done! GAL
I got back today from our ski trip, dropped the kids off at the house and headed out to a gig (it basically paid for the trip). We had a great time. I picked up some kind of flu/fever/sorethroat but it was more than worth it!
D17's best friend was a great addition. She had never been skiing before, and was excited and exuberant the entire time. I can see why D17 loves her. She knows about our sitch, and at first I suspected that she was being extra joyful for our benefit, but D17 told me she is like this all the time (even annoyingly so sometimes). We had a lot of laughs, a lot of joy, lots of car games and inside jokes. They gave me a nickname!
On the way back we sang along to a Beatles playlist.
The best for me, was late at night in the hotel room. We were all in the same room. The three of them (S13, D17, Friend17) stayed up late talking with the lights off. Even though I was half asleep I could clearly hear them, and I'm glad they were comfortable and tired enough to be themselves with me right there. I just laid there with my eyes closed and listened to their gentle talking. They we both confident, experienced, and yet retained their innocence. I think I had a rare glimpse into their private world, and I was so comforted to know that they still have child like joy, trust, and love.
That sounds like a really nice trip Awoken.
Thanks GIMA. I see you've had a hard week; I'm over to your thread next to post.
It was a nice trip; I need to hold on those moments.
I made that last post from the parking lot of a Krystal down the street from my gig (hate the food, love the wifi).I had just finished my gig. When I began the trip home I found myself full of dread, and growing negativity. I decided to stop and read the forums for a while.
I need to really improve myself/my thinking when I'm in the house with W, and make it more positive. Right now, coming home just fills me with so much sadness. I wish it could all be ski weekends.
Awoken,
I'm so glad you had a great weekend with your kids. I
know what you mean about those glimpses into their world-
I get that once in a great while with my D9 and it fills
my heart with joy!
About the dread-
this is what I do....I imagine a giant stop sign like I have
read about on these posts. I know it sounds crazy but it helps.
Also, I just keep remembering WHAT IF this is my last day on
earth, am I going to waste it worrying about their mood OR make
MY mood the best it can be. Also I have decided that I can mope/cry
later when my kids aren't home. They need me to be
the very best mom I can be---I learned that from you!
My dad always told me that I AM in charge of my outlook-
no one else-not my co-worker or spouse or friend--I AM in
charge of me.
You only have to get thru one day at a time. I hope today
is great for you.
JG
About the dread-
this is what I do....I imagine a giant stop sign like I have
read about on these posts. I know it sounds crazy but it helps.
Also, I just keep remembering WHAT IF this is my last day on
earth, am I going to waste it worrying about their mood OR make
MY mood the best it can be. Also I have decided that I can mope/cry
later when my kids aren't home. They need me to be
the very best mom I can be---I learned that from you!
My dad always told me that I AM in charge of my outlook-
no one else-not my co-worker or spouse or friend--I AM in
charge of me.
You only have to get thru one day at a time. I hope today
is great for you.
Really good point, JG. And something I plan to use as well.
Awoken, I'm so glad that you had such a great trip. The teens must have been really thrilled to have had that adventure with you.
I need to really improve myself/my thinking when I'm in the house with W, and make it more positive. Right now, coming home just fills me with so much sadness. I wish it could all be ski weekends.
I can relate to that. I am trying to figure out how to work on my thinking so that I can GAL (which includes non-fun stuff like getting back into doing billable hours to deal with my financial vulnerability). I think that I want to put some focus on doing
The Work. I am suffering because I am believing my thoughts. I need to challenge those thoughts. I want to re-read
I Need Your Love - Is that True?. It's a great book and it helps me to see that there are other ways of looking at love than the way that I am stuck in now.
I think that I want to put some focus on doing
The Work. I am suffering because I am believing my thoughts. I need to challenge those thoughts. I want to re-read
I Need Your Love - Is that True?. It's a great book and it helps me to see that there are other ways of looking at love than the way that I am stuck in now.
All of Byron Katie's stuff is tremendous. I used The Work to help me shift my thinking around my H's EA, to help find some peace and take actions that were in alignment with what I wanted. I'm not sure where in the world you are, but she's speaking at a conference in San Diego in the next couple of months. I've seen her before, and it's invaluable. In fact, H and I are taking FIL to see her, hoping he's chosen as one of the people she works with on stage. <evil grin>
Hang in there! Find a way to create that "ski weekend" mentality every single day.
SD
All of Byron Katie's stuff is tremendous. I used The Work to help me shift my thinking around my H's EA, to help find some peace and take actions that were in alignment with what I wanted.
Oh, I'm really excited to hear about someone using The Work as part of the DBing process, especially someone whose marriage has survived some bumps.
All of Byron Katie's stuff is tremendous. I used The Work to help me shift my thinking around my H's EA, to help find some peace and take actions that were in alignment with what I wanted.
Oh, I'm really excited to hear about someone using The Work as part of the DBing process, especially someone whose marriage has survived some bumps.
Well, The Work is really about detaching and acting in accordance with what you want/need and letting go of any notion of controlling the outcome. It's a natural fit with DBing. It's why I could look at my H and say, "H, make a choice. Continue speaking with that hoebag you had a crush on or stop. If you choose to continue talking to her, I cannot continue in this M. It is your choice."
Had to be done, because that was what was right for me. Of course I would have been devastated if he'd chosen otherwise, but I'd let go of the outcome.
Sorry to hijack
SD
Hi Awoken
I have been away for a while and just read through your recent events. I am sorry to hear what went down but glad you had a great trip with the kids this weekend. Stay strong - Junco
Hey everyone, I'm still here.
I'm suffering from a bad case of flu. In the little time I have, I'm trying to work on my taxes, and do the state child support worksheets, all for a D I don't want.
Thanks for the replies.
(((GIMA)))
(((JG))): great post, like its my last day on earth! I can use that. thank you!
(((FlowMom))): I'll look up "The Work". I'll have a small library soon!
(((SDFoundGirl))): SkiWeekend mentality every day. D17's friend seems to do this naturally. I was thinking the same thing.
(((Junco))): thanks for checking in.
My "flu" got bad enough last night that I took the day off from work and went to the doc. He said I've got a "nasty" upper respiratory bacterial infection. It's pretty odd to me. It's mainly in my sinuses and in my eyes!
I talked with my lawyer yesterday. W's lawyer is asking to host a mediation. I suppose that's good news, but with W basically already asking for everything, I'm not sure where the supposed middle ground would be.
Right now I should be doing paperwork to prepare for the mediation. I can barely see the screen right now through the muck in my eyes (gross, I know). I'm not going to be able to post much.
((Awoken))
Hope you get to feeling better soon. Sorry to hear you're so infected. At least it waited until AFTER the ski trip (well, mostly). You need to just take a break, get some rest and recover. The work will still be there when you feel better. You don't want to make mistakes because you're feeling poorly. You've got some time, so you might as well take it.
Hang in there and feel better!
Well, I'm feeling better enough that I dragged myself to work today. Several of my clients noticed my ring was missing from my hand. I always talk a lot about my wife and kids, and they were very surprised that we could D. On top of that I look pretty terrible with my bloodshot eyes from the infection. The doc says I'm not contagious, but I look like I've been crying for a week straight.
I don't know if it's just being sick, but I felt something today I haven't felt exactly in a while. I really miss my wife. No specific anger or desperate panic, just heartbroken longing. I miss being able to call her in the middle of the day, seeing her first thing when I get home from work, talking about the kids with her, just being in the same room with her. She's out of town for two days right now so that makes these thoughts easier.
If I was confronted with her icy stares, and the facts of her planned destruction of my role in the family, I would feel different.
Of course, when I think about it I realize that the woman I miss is likely gone forever. It makes it harder when I now doubt my memories of good times over the past 18 years.
Well that was short lived;
missing her.
I'm gonna vent here
!
When I got home from work today, I received an email from W.
We switched health insurance companies on Jan 1st, and we have to all our family perscriptions refilled. S13 takes meds for ADHD, and is almost out of his supply. I took on the task of comparing all the doctor choices, finding one that was taking on new ADHD patients, getting D13 the soonest appointment (tomorrow), and arranging to have his records transferred. I then worked my work schedule around the appointment. I've emailed W about all this as I did it. She was supposed to get the medical records herself, but when she never did I went ahead and took care of the request myself.
So today, her email told me that she was going to take S13 to the doctor instead of me. My thought is that is part of her divorce action, and claim for custody. I emailed her that we needed to stick to the original plan, and I would be taking S13 to the doctor. Then I called her and told her the same. She said I was going to use this against her, and I said she could meet us at the doctor if liked. She sounded pretty pissed, and started into some accusations, about how I avoided her around the house. I told her that I was just keeping peace in the house.
She yelled "where has this man been the past 17 years". I asked "are we agreeing that I'm taking D13 tomorrow", and she said "Yes!". Then I said, thanks, I gotta go. Bye.
I was very calm both in the email and on the phone with her, despite her being so upset. I could have made accusations about why she called the doctor, why she was intervening, why she dropped the ball on getting S13's medical records, but I just didn't anything positive from it.
I suppose I could've set a boundary better, so this stuff doesn't keep happening. I'm not sure how to word it, and I need to work on this a lot more for the future!
Thoughts anyone? 2x4's?
Sounds like you handled it well. I think in a way, you did stick with a boundary of sorts - you told her you were taking D to the appointment.
Sorry I haven't been a round much this week. It's been busy.
Awoken,
I think you did GREAT!! You were calm and in control.
How did that feel?? WAY TO GO!!
I'm sure some of her motivation is
guilt when it comes to the kids.
Just keep doing what you know is right.
When in doubt ask yourself "Is this right for me/my kids/the situation?" Go with your
instinct-I think.
Keep it up,
JG
Hang in there A. I think you handled this latest "test" quite well, and stood your ground. I completely understand the swapping emotions of missing W then being completely frustrated with W. I think it sometimes helps to have the kid(s) to focus on, to help us remember what's the most important thing.
Don't have much else to say, other than the fact that you aren't alone, and you're in my thoughts and prayers.
- CC
I'm deep in confusion again, or never really left it.
This will be long post, and thank you if you make it through it!
I spent most of yesterday working on my self-employed taxes, and going over details of our financial life, preparing for D. Both D17 and S13 spent the entire day at friends, and surprisingly W stayed at home watching movies. We were basically one room apart most of the time, me in the office typing away on the computer and her cuddled up on the couch in the living room.
I've been very calm with her over the last month, or more. I've given her space, and been busy being a father and getting a life. I do think I've been a little cold in my avoidance of her, and I was particularly angry over the D filing and it's contents although we haven't had a direct argument over it. I've been pondering Ready2Change's thread, coach's Plan AandB, basically trying to figure out how to be friendlier with her during this horrible time. She gave me a clue thursday on the phone when she told me she was angry because I leave the room whenever she is comes in (I assumed that since she is divorcing me this is what she wants). So, yesterday I made of point of greeting her when I saw her, asked her about lunch, etc. I was surprised that she just sat there all day. We are talking about 12 hours?
Around 10pm, I went out to get some cold medicine, and when I returned I greeted her and she says "you're welcome to come in the living room with me". I said ok, I'm not avoiding you.
She said "you asked why I'm so angry at you". Now, I don't remember asking that specifically, but ok. She then tried to explain in detail. She began with something that completely contradicted what she had said to me 2 weeks ago.
Here's the background:
2+ years ago, D17(then D14) called me in a panic because W had taken a bunch of pills, and was mostly unresponsive. W kept saying she wanted to die, and she was'nt fit to be a mother. I rushed home, called our health provider on the way, and eventually had an ambulance at the home. The paramedics determined that there was no danger in what she took, and W was much calmer. I got W an appointment with a psychiatrist in the morning. She has always resisted seeing mental health pro's, and I thought this was a good step. Normally she would fight me tooth and nail on something like this. She took several days off of work. After a while, she really seemed so much better. I felt like I watched her like a hawk for months after.
2 weeks ago, W told me that I blew the entire thing out of proportion and I never should have called the ambulance. Last night she told me that one of the reasons she is so angry is because she tried to kill herself, and I did nothing to help her. I don't know what to think. I do feel some guilt for not paying enough attention during the past year in particular, especially to her drinking. I've been going to al-anon to deal with some of this, but still it is something that weighs on me.
She also went into detail about how I've made her feel belittled. This I get. One of the things I've "awoken" to is that I've been resentful over her emotional detachment from me, and started battling her over little inconsequential things like how we decorate, or when we schedule trips, I suppose hoping she would demonstrate some deference for me. I don't think this was conscious, but it was definitely my pattern. I also tended to try to curtail her spending sprees, as they related to her manic phases. I was trying to help her, and I now see how that ultimately hurt her instead.
W then complained that since she had dropped the bomb, I had not really been pursuing her, and that she thought that was a sure sign that we shouldn't be married.
I told her I miss her, miss talking to her every day. And she says, "don't say that, I miss you too! I wish I could find you again". She just sat there on the couch, so I came over to her and put my arms around her. We hugged for a long time.
The kids were about to come home, so I broke off and said I needed to call to check on D17. W made some small talk about the D papers, saying that her lawyer had called to say I had signed them. I was surprised, because I haven't signed them yet! I told her, and then all tension returned.
Is W confused about what she wants, or is she just feeling guilty? I told her last night that I didn't want a D because I didn't think we had done any work on our M, but I was ready for one it that was what she needs.
Be careful, actions are what to look for not words. It seems fishy too me, and sounds like "script".
Thanks Dane. It's a good point. I did think here staying home the entire day was different for her. She's not out with her new "friends".
My mind is racing again, and i'm sure it's not good that she's back in my head like this again.
I also need to mention that she's back to some drinking again, she had obviously had some wine last night and wasn't hiding it. I would think that she would be more careful about it considering the D.
The drinking is something I have noticed with my wife as well since dropping the bomb on me. It is a coping mechanism for their guilt, pain, fear or all.
I consider it a "tell" on how they are feeling. If they are medicating themselves, something is bothering them.
Actions are louder than words.
Marital history re-writing, pure and simple. Sounds like your W likes drama, so she'll seize on a flashpoint, convince herself of how you utterly disrespected her, and toss that into the heap of burning wood for her WAS mode / entitlement.
I've been through quite a bit of what you shared. The resentment at W leading to the breakdown of the M, the little carrots thrown at you now, the wish to "find us again". It's not all bad, but keep in mind a lot of it is simple guilt, cake-eating, keeping you as a back-up, and plain unwillingness to put in the work to save the M - for now.
I think you're right to the line in wanting your M and W, but setting certain boundaries and respecting her choices.
Thanks Deep,
Of course, what I'm wondering is if I need to reach out to W just a little. From my point of view, we've done almost nothing to save the M. Still, I understand what you are saying, she is likely motivated by guilt, cake-eating, need for me in her life as friend. And I don't want to be her friend outside of a M.
Even as I type this, I know I've read these same words time and again from others here. Still, it's hard to get my mind around it for myself.
Thanks Deep,
Of course, what I'm wondering is if I need to reach out to W just a little. From my point of view, we've done almost nothing to save the M. Still, I understand what you are saying, she is likely motivated by guilt, cake-eating, need for me in her life as friend. And I don't want to be her friend outside of a M.
Even as I type this, I know I've read these same words time and again from others here. Still, it's hard to get my mind around it for myself.
Hi friend. YOU cannot fix HER. She has to want to change for the better, just like she has to want to work on the M.Keep the door open, but SHE has to walk through it.
Of course, what I'm wondering is if I need to reach out to W just a little.
Here's what I'm wondering: How will you feel if you DON'T
reach out to W just a little? Will you have regrets and
wonder if's??
I know it's hard but you CAN get thru each day.
Keep you ears open and your eyes even WIDER open..
--just my two cents worth.
JG
Hi JG,
Well, I reached out to her in a kind of way.
I had 14 days to get sign the "acknowledgment of service" from my wife's lawyer, and today was really the last day I had to go to a notary and get it done.
After signing it, having it notarized, and dropping it off at the post office, I sent W a courtesy text message telling her what I had done, saying "I thought you would want to know".
She was clearly upset about it on Saturday. Sure enough, no reply from her at all. I think I was better off to continue with no contact.
Keep the door open, but SHE has to walk through it.
^^This. Even if it takes time. Remember, it's her actions OVER TIME that counts. I think it was fine you reaching out with your text to her. Even if her response was delayed, you did get a response. (But what do I know?)
Must be a hard thing, this roller coaster....
Awoken,
How are you doing?
JG
Hey JG, thanks for asking
I think I'm doing pretty well considering. I'm measuring this by the fact that I'm mostly sleeping, I'm able to eat, I'm exercising, and I'm able to function well at work.
Mostly I'm feeling really sad, and I'm sure this is a natural time for grief. I'm not having as much time for the forum now. My time is spent working on paperwork for a divorce which I don't believe is a solution to my marriage problems. I have to finish my self-employed taxes early, try to figure out my financial situation, including how I'll find health insurance after the divorce (I'm on my wife's policy now). There are so many details, and each one just reminds me of the destruction of my family.
Still, things could be much worse. I'll survive this and come out a better man and father.
Mostly I'm feeling really sad, and I'm sure this is a natural time for grief. I'm not having as much time for the forum now. My time is spent working on paperwork for a divorce which I don't believe is a solution to my marriage problems.
...
There are so many details, and each one just reminds me of the destruction of my family.
Still, things could be much worse. I'll survive this and come out a better man and father.
Our timelines and sitches have many similarities. Your comments hit home so hard, because they could have come straight from my mouth as well. Personally, I wish that I could have kept myself more detached when W reached out to me 3 weeks ago, but instead, I crumbled, and it has just thrown me into a hard spin. All my DBing went out the window, I guess because I figured that since we were going through with the D, it wasn't necessary anymore. I realize how wrong this is, as it's seriously impeded my progress of healing.
I'm trying to walk that fine line between being friendly/civil for S7's sake, and being her "friend". I'm so lonely for her friendship, but I also know that it's not enough for me. I know that she's "broken" (her words...tattooed on her back), and I can't fix her. Yet I still love her and have to fight the urges to take care of her, even when she won't do what it takes to take care of herself (yes, have enabler tendencies). She can barely look me in the eyes anymore because of all that she's done to me, and has an even harder time looking in the mirror.
I guess I've still held a small bit of hope that some miracle would happen, and she would suddenly snap out of this and magically become the person that I deserve. It's killing me to know/admit/accept that this isn't going to happen. If I could have done like you and detached better, I wouldn't have allowed myself to (even subconsciously) expect anything from her, and therefore couldn't be disappointed like I've been these past few weeks.
Hang in there. We're going to be better people in the end.
Thanks CC,
Yes, I've seen the similarities in our sitches, and a lot of what you've said in your thread I felt were my own words too. We've definitely got some kinship/brotherhood in our shared experiences. As awful as it is, I don't feel as lonely knowing that someone else out there is dealing with some of the same stuff as I am.
I think I threw DBing out the window too, and I'm trying to get back to it. It's hard when my hope is so....meager i guess.
You said you wished you could have detached better, like me. I don't know how detached I really am. I still have that small ember of hope that W will turn around. I keep it safe deep in my mind because it's so painful to confront how unlikely it is. I wish I could just let it go, but I can't.
arrrg! W still gets in my head!
She told me this afternoon that she is going to a friends party on the other side of town. Then she explained that since she feels uncomfortable driving over there late a night, she's just going to spend the night over there. She's never had a problem before; sigh, the lies never stop.
I just got home, and the entire house smells like her perfume, she's made herself up for a special night. Either there she's got someone that she wants to hook up with, or she just wants some time to drink herself silly without us knowing about it.
I don't know if I'm more upset at the thoughts of what she is doing tonight, or that I still let her get to me this way.
Yesterday, D17 told me that mom's nights with the kids (Tuesdays and Thursdays), W basically spends the majority of the time at the gym or in her bedroom.
The first three months of my sitch has been hard enough, and I know I haven't handled it the best. Now I'm dealing with the consequences of my inaction. This slow grinding process towards a D is a different kind of suffering, and its truly awful, as I'm sure many of you know all too well.
I can tell that I'm very confused and over-emotional tonight. I think I could really use some 2x4's or comments of any kind.
Awoken,
Sorry friend you are going through this, but it's normal. Don't fight your emotions. Recognize them, deal with them, let them out, and move on.
The fact is, you don't know what she's up to. And, given that she has filed for D, it's not your problem unless it impacts the children. And even then, you may not be able to do a thing about it.
Certainly let your L know about how W is spending her time with the kids.
I understand the emotional side of this. B/c I have had a tough week with my D as well. It's ok to be angry, hurt, sad. Those are normal reactions of someone who cares and loves. The challenge is not to let those negative emotions overtake you while, at the same time, letting them run their course.
If you don't let them run their course, they will back up on you, sort of like not taking out the garbage. So, let them out (I had to earlier this week), then gather yourself and keep moving forward. Focus on what you CAN control and let go of that which you can't.
And post here for support or to vent. We are all here to help you and one another. So, use that resource.
I will continue to keep you and your family in my thoughts and prayers.
Hi, not sure if I have recommend these books to you, but they are both very good reads:
Link to Anger book by defoore Link to book divorce poison
Thanks GIMA; I'm feeling better today. More sad than angry really.
Your post was helpful as always. I hope you are doing well too.
(((Ready2Change)))
Thanks for the book recommendations. I got my copy of the 4 agreements last week, and I'm rereading it now.
I'll get the anger book next. I've read DivorcePoison. Maybe I need to reread it.
I just read the intro's to both books again on the amazon links that you provided. Can you elaborate about what led you to recommend divorce poison?
Those that refuse to play offense, are destined to play defense.
Time to lawyer up.
Puppy
Puppy posted this in another thread today. I couldn't help but notice this. He and Sandi both recommended that I file for D first, taking charge of my sitch. I'm definitely now in a defensive position, and possibly stuck with a long drawn out process. Or maybe it would have been long anyway. Until this all started, I never considered divorce before.
I remember why I didn't follow their advice, but I do have doubts about my choice now.
Can you elaborate about what led you to recommend divorce poison?
This Statement:
The fact is, you don't know what she's up to. And, given that she has filed for D, it's not your problem unless it impacts the children. And even then, you may not be able to do a thing about it....Certainly let your L know about how W is spending her time with the kids.
and these:
...the lies never stop....Now I'm dealing with the consequences of my inaction....
I feel
Divorce Poison helped clarify when I needed to take action for inappropriate behavior of my MsR2C.
Thanks R2C; that helps.
I first read Divorce Poison when D17 told me that W was saying bad things about me. That seems like a long time ago. Surprisingly, it's best use to me has been understanding how to improve my own conversations with my kids. I've never spoken badly about W to them, and as her behavior has gotten worse both D17 and S13 want to engage me about W. I like to think reading that book has helped me handle those conversations, like when S13 asked me "is mom bi-polar?"
I can see how as we work through the divorce, things could escalate. I'll reread the book.
Yes, knowing effective ways to respond to our kids questions and concerns is important.
Rereading some of these books is also important. I have read the four agreements countless times. Each time, I get something new.
I've got some true GAL coming up for valentine's weekend. I'm performing in NY, with my favorite musicians. We have a deep bond, it's friendship but also something a little unique among musicians. It's a true joy for me.
In the past, I thought that W really supported me in this part of my career. She's a musician herself. I travel a lot for gigs, but I truly spend more time with my family than many that work 9-5 jobs. When possible, I would take my family. Often I would take one of the kids, and sometimes both. Our plan had been that when the kids moved out, W could go to all the international places with me. She's been out of the country a few times with me, and we've had a great time.
So...This past spring I had three weeks of touring, spread out over a few months. We discussed it at length before I accepted the gigs, and she seemed sure that I should do them. I tried to get W to come to either the Spain, New York, or Brazil gigs, but she declined saying she was too busy at work. I now know this was a warning sign. A couple of weeks before she dropped the bomb, Someone posted some video on youtube of us performing in NY, and I tried to share it with her. She shocked me by saying "stop rubbing it in my $#ing face!". I was speechless, and just shocked. It was unlike anything she's ever had to say to me before, even with her moodswings. I figured she was having a very bad day, and I would just wait it out. When she dropped the bomb, I had almost forgotten about it.
I'm gonna go to new york, and enjoy sharing music for four days. But in my mind I now have some guilt about how my music has impacted my marriage, that I have never had before. I need to sort it out.
This is bitter-sweet too. When I first started performing, I was driven to go sit-in at jam sessions because my first love broke my heart. (very cliche I know, but I was 19). No one knew me, or anything about me. I would just get up on stage, not caring about anything and just play. One time an older musician, a famous veteran in the music community, leaned over and whispered in my ear "What was her name?"
Now, when I play, I've got some of the same feeling again, heartbroken surrender I guess. Duke Ellington's autobiography is titled "Music is my Mistress". Now I'm worried that music is a guilty pleasure.
It's just more stuff I got to work out.
It's a true joy for me.
But in my mind I now have some guilt about how my music has impacted my marriage, that I have never had before. I need to sort it out.
Now I'm worried that music is a guilty pleasure.
It's just more stuff I got to work out.
OK so here is my take on this (for whatever it's worth)...
Music is obviously something that calms your soul....which
I understand because H is a musician too. I don't think you have anything to feel guilty about because it's not like you up and abandoned your family one day. You did/do this as a vocation which is ok. I would see this as a tool to help you thru these tough times. I'm so glad you have a plan for V-day. Have a great day!
I think that your W is simply jealous of your success/ enjoyment in this area....how petty of her!! I'm sure she could have those things too if she'd get her head out of her a$$ and sober up!
(Just saying)
((Awoken))
I'm gonna go to new york, and enjoy sharing music for four days. But in my mind I now have some guilt about how my music has impacted my marriage, that I have never had before. I need to sort it out.
You should feel NO guilt here. She KNEW this and was a part of this when you two met and got together. It was HER choice to abandon her music and NOT participate in yours. You tried to include her and your family in this.
You know you have a special talent in your music and it is a great outlet that you should take advantage of. It is part of who you are. And she knows that.
Go to New York and have a FABULOUS time with your friends...leave the guilt at home.
Awoken,
I agree with what the others have said. NO GUILT.
I would add that your W is likely at a place where she will say anything (true or not) to justify her decision to D. That's why we say not to believe anything they say and only half of what they do.
Awoken, I agree it sounds like music is a positive part of your life and that you should GAL with no guilt.
I also want to share with you how some of H's activity passions have contributed to our marriage problems. I'm not saying that your W's experience is the same or even similar to mine...I'll leave it to you to think about whether there are any parallels. First, I am a very independent woman and I've always encouraged H to do things that he enjoys, etc. OTOH, the way that H has pursued his activity passions has left me out in the cold at times. I've perceived that H has at times pursued ego gratification in those activities at the expense of caring for our R or allowing me the time that I need for self care (in our parenting years). Sometimes his activities have felt like an A to me in a way. Now his activity passions have outlasted our M
. Again, I want to emphasize that people do not see me as controlling of H's time or activities...on the contrary. But there have been hurt feelings on my part about how H has managed his activities, and how he has communicated his priorities to me. In our parenting years, there hasn't been much space for me to GAL because of H's activities. He turned his major activity passion into a side business, and that legitimized all the time and money he was spending on it, but it may not have been the best option for work-life balance.
Anyway, ignore if none of this resonates with you. And have a great trip
.
Thanks flowmom,
You are hitting on exactly what I'm trying to figure out. I'm certain W has some resentment about my career success. It's just that she hasn't expressed any of it until very recently. Music has been our main source of income for the entire 18 years we have been together. W has tried a large number of various hobbies and careers, which I've fully funded and tried to fully support emotionally.
She says that I'm resentful that I've given up a bigger career in music in order to support her, and it pisses her off. I've thought hard about this. I've never said anything like that, and my true feelings have been that becoming a husband and father have saved me. I wouldn't trade my family for anything. In fact, they are what give my music meaning.
She says she is trying to find herself, and she can't do it with me helping her all the time. I think that is a valid point. Still, I have to wonder about her new resentment of my music. I wonder how new it is. Has she been angry about it all these years? Is it jealousy, or just anger at my absences? She has said that she's "raised the kids" while I play music, but I don't think that is fair or true. I've been a dedicated father, and spend countless hours with my kids. Truthfully, I've done a lot more gigs than I've wanted to just to support her bipolar spending sprees. But then I would dedicate the rest of my time to the kids; D17 recently pointed out that is was W that choose not to participate.
It's true, we have not had a traditional family schedule, and that is likely part of the problem. I just wonder how much of this is her rewriting history.
sigh, I do just want to move on.
It's true, we have not had a traditional family schedule, and that is likely part of the problem.
Because of my H's primary job, we haven't had much of a traditional family schedule, and that has been hard. I guess if someone is financially supporting you, you have to take the lumps of their job, but I admit that I've been resentful since we have had kids that our schedule is always so messed up. H's schedule has and still does structure my entire life.
I just wonder how much of this is her rewriting history.
Probably 93%
.
Anyway, no intention to guilt trip you or anything.
Probably 93%
Anyway, no intention to guilt trip you or anything.
Ha! why not 93.3%
The guilt trip is my own. I'm just sorting through my own stuff here. I've come to terms with a lot of my contributions to the failure of my M. I guess this one is just on my mind right now because of this up coming trip.
The other stuff I'm fairly certain where my fault lies; this one I'm not as sure of. Your comments certainly help.
I've got some true GAL coming up for valentine's weekend. I'm performing in NY, with my favorite musicians. We have a deep bond, it's friendship but also something a little unique among musicians. It's a true joy for me.
Performing? Just jamming together or a venue? I'd love to go down to NYC or nearby NYS in my area for some good live GALing music.
(I just posted in your thread Gardner; how nice to come over to mine and find you here)
Performing? Just jamming together or a venue? I'd love to go down to NYC or nearby NYS in my area for some good live GALing music.
I'm playing at a venue, 4 nights feb 11-14.
Hmm, I'll have to find a way to drop some hints about where.
I took S13 out for some food tonight(D17 stayed home with way too much homework) He's been unusually tense for the past couple of days. I've been gently probing, seeing if he wanted to talk. Of course he gets mad if I ask "what's wrong", so I've been avoiding that.
Tonight, he finally opened up to me. We talked for over an hour, with us both trying to hold back tears the entire time. Me trying to be the good dad, and him trying to be the good son. He's been acting like everything was ok, and that he was handling everything, but I knew he was having a really hard time. He told me so many things, and I could tell he was really telling me the truth, not the equivocation that teenagers often provide. I'm so thankful for him!
Much of it was hard to hear. He's very depressed, and has a hard time coming home. He has a hard time sleeping. He says he has lost all hope. He said that he is so tired of his friends telling him that everything would be ok, and to remain positive.
Then he said something I've read here in the forums: "I have to remain positive, because I have no choice."
I talked to him about maybe seeing someone to talk to outside his family and friends (IC). He was dead set against it. But, as it often is with teenagers, I'll wait and see how he feels in a few days after he's thought about it so more. At least I've had the chance to plant that seed.
Tonight, he finally opened up to me.
I'm so happy for you that this dinner happened. His opening up is so incredible! Just keep walking the walk and talking the talk....you are strong! Good thinking on planting the seed about IC. I think not pushing was great thinking!
-JG
Tonight, he finally opened up to me.
I'm so happy for you that this dinner happened. His opening up is so incredible! Just keep walking the walk and talking the talk....you are strong! Good thinking on planting the seed about IC. I think not pushing was great thinking!
-JG
Yep. THIS.
I received a copy of my lawyers answer to my W's D filing.
My wife asked for basically everything: CS, spousal support, full custody, the house, and for me to pay her legal fees.
Our answer basically asks for exactly the same thing. I know this is so that we can a position to bargain from, but it makes me feel sick to my stomach.
My instincts are to sit down and just say what I want, what is equitable. But I know that's not how this process works.
My instincts are to sit down and just say what I want, what is equitable. But I know that's not how this process works.
If only it were as easy as this.
Just curious. Have you asked/talked to your lawyer about this? I know how you feel about letting go of all the game playing and just doing what's right. But then again, when you consider how your W will react - regardless of what you counter with - she's going to have a negative reaction, right? (I know, I know, not supposed to think about her reactions...) But if she's gonna get mad anyway, at least give yourself some negotiating room with this?
Awoken,
Tonight, he finally opened up to me. We talked for over an hour, with us both trying to hold back tears the entire time. Me trying to be the good dad, and him trying to be the good son. He's been acting like everything was ok, and that he was handling everything, but I knew he was having a really hard time. He told me so many things, and I could tell he was really telling me the truth, not the equivocation that teenagers often provide. I'm so thankful for him!
Thank God!
At the same age, S13, left my apartment years ago (I had gotten one within walking distance of our house) Got 20 or 30 feet, turned around crying and running back to me. We sat on my big Adirondack chair, I held him tight on my lap. We talked a lot. At the end, I looked him in the eyes, smiled and assured him, "You will be alright! I will be alright!
You and I will be alright. Always."
This summer, at age 31 - eighteen years later - he told me about that moment in that chair and how everything did get better after that and that he never forgot that moment. Gardener, of course, cried.
Awoken, be strong and do your utmost best - at all times - with S13 like you're doing now. Not just for the hurting boy but for the man you're forming and building.
I talked to him about maybe seeing someone to talk to outside his family and friends (IC). He was dead set against it. But, as it often is with teenagers, I'll wait and see how he feels in a few days after he's thought about it so more. At least I've had the chance to plant that seed.
Firmly insist. Or give it the old "just
try it a couple of times. That's all I ask." Find a family counselor and talk to him/her alone first to get advice on how best to overcome your son's reticence. Go
with him, even if just in the beginning (leave that up to the counselor) don't
send him. I did it with both my boys and it did the three of us much good.
Also, Awoken, it's your sitch and marriage and pain, too. Open up to him more. Express some hurt, fear, doubt, regret. It will help
him open up more and likely cause him to pitch in to comfort
you (while he's unknowingly comforting himself -and growing in his own eyes - at the same time).
Peace,
Awoken,
I received a copy of my lawyers answer to my W's D filing.
My wife asked for basically everything: CS, spousal support, full custody, the house, and for me to pay her legal fees.
Opening Salvo. Lawyers sizing each other up. It means nothing and won't even remotely resemble the final result.
Our answer basically asks for exactly the same thing.
Yep. I've always thought it's the lawyers' equivalent of the crude street slang,"Eff
me? Eff
you!"
My instincts are to sit down and just say what I want, what is equitable. But I know that's not how this process works.
Your instincts are like mine were and like most men's are. Equitable. Noble. Want to be remembered always as having done the right thing. This will only get you penniless, screwed, and a lawyer whose p!ssed and frustrated at you. Obey your lawyer. If in the process anything really goes against the kind of man you are, put your foot down. My lawyer insisted I go after half my wife's pension. No way. No sir. Ain't gonna do that. And we didn't.
The opinion of my lawyer and a couple of my friends (including one or two on this board) is I was stupid.
My opinion is I was true to myself. I sleep well at night. Put your foot down if you must towards the end on specifics - whether on her side or your side . For now, let the lawyers do their dance and try to realize you're paying him so you don't have to do it
and so you don't even have to
think about it (much). It's being handled.
Let the lawyers dance.
Let your lawyer know where you will settle.
I strongly recommend:
Frequent and equal parenting time.
First right of refusal.
Equal equity.
Be strong.
Thanks R2C. Those three are what I want. I have some additional concerns about W's mental health and fitness that I need to sort out.
I first got the concept of "first right of refusal" from you, marked in my notes.
Just curious. Have you asked/talked to your lawyer about this?
No, I haven't talked to my L about it yet. I don't really understand the whole process yet. I'm compiling a list of questions to ask her, so that I'm organized and make the best use of the billable hours. I'm assuming once we schedule a meeting with my STBXW's lawyer, that we will talk over my needs and questions.
(((Gardner)))
This is why I come to these forums, people like you and R2C, and all the others here.
I sat here and read through those two posts you made to me over and over. What you said is very clear, and so helpful. I saved them for daily reference.
I don't know exactly how to express it, but that story about you and your son gives me some hope for the future I haven't felt in a while. It's funny how just the right words at the right time can do that?
Awoken, what a great fathering moment with your son. Teenagers desperately need to talk to their parents, but they don't always know it or make it easy for that to happen. IC does sound like a good idea...your S needs a safe place to talk about his feelings, and his peers are not emotionally equipped to be there for him.
Awoken,
Thank you for that. It means more to me than you can know.
At yesterday's IC session, I was recapping (
not lamenting) that my DB efforts - and other efforts - did not work, did not save my marriage. And that after D-Day next week I'd probably drop off the board except maybe for Surviving the Big D occasionally.
My IC repeated something he'd said before about the particulars of my sitch and my efforts: "It didn't work. It was never
going to."
And
then he said something to me about the DB Boards and about life in general that I don't think anyone has ever said to me: "You have a
lot to offer."
So, my thanks to him and my thanks to
you, Awoken. You are so right:
It's funny how just the right words at the right time can do that.
Peace,
"You have a lot to offer."
Funny you should mention this because as I have been reading thru this and many other posts I have often thought how incredible the support and kinds words are. You and so many others have been selfless in helping so many of us get thru each day. I am strong BECAUSE of the support I receive (and sometimes give) on here. I hope you will continue to "lift up" those of us who need you. I also hope you have peace each day....you deserve it. Your story gave me such comfort last night in dealing with my D9.
(((Gardner)))
I save posts in a text file that are really important to me. Early on in my sitch, I was struggling with what the extent of my W's drinking problem was. You offered me the following post:
A drinking problem by definition is not manageable. Hide-able, sure. Function relatively "normally" in society despite it? kinda sorta, but life becomes a performance. A drinking problem, too much drinking, habitual drinking, alcohol abuse, self-medicating, whatever you call it is a problem.
Or, more often than not, it is masking a problem.
Followed by this post which sent me searching bookstores. Trimpeys book was a key read for me, especially with regards to my own guilt and denial over W's drinking. As I type this, I'm making a note to reread it.
For more insight, you might want to look at the book Rational Recovery by Jack Trimpey. Different approach. Worked immediately for me. Not a one-day-at-a-time approach. Rather Starting-today-and-forever. Not forever on-going recovering. Recovered. Period. (though I over simplify)Higher success rate than AA.
But, your call, of course.
You do have a lot to offer. Thanks yet again dear friend!
arrrrgg,
I spent today trying to finish financial paperwork for my lawyers. I would much rather have watched the game (even with the eventual outcome). Out of necessity, I stayed in my bedroom with the laptop and all my papers trying to find all the remaining information.
STBXW stayed in the living room with the big screen tv. She is a big football fan, and had her Colts jersey on. I was a little sad not to be sharing the game with her, and then sadder still to realize that I had not shared enough games with her in the past.
Then, as my frustration with the paperwork set in, I wondered if she had done any of this paperwork with her lawyers, and here I am redoing all of it, or worse doing it for her.
My most petty side came out when the Colts started to lose, and I found myself silently pulling for the Saints to defeat the Colts....and my W. Five minutes before the end of the game, she stormed upstairs, announced to the entire house that she was "done with this", and retreated to her room. I could hear her furiously facebooking away.
She should be better than this. Saturday, I was supposed to take D17 shopping for a prom dress. It was my turn this year. W intervened, and asked D17 herself. It ticked me off, but I took my time to think it over, and it was simply more important for D17 to spend the time with her mom. I could see that D17 wanted to try to mend some fences, and this was her chance. STBXW is going to a "triathlon" out of town on prom day (very weird!), so this was really her only chance to do prom stuff with D17.
I'm trying to do what is best for my kids, and save myself at the same time. I'm still worried about W, but I have to just let her go.
Awoken,
A drinking problem by definition is not manageable. Hide-able, sure. Function relatively "normally" in society despite it? kinda sorta, but life becomes a performance. A drinking problem, too much drinking, habitual drinking, alcohol abuse, self-medicating, whatever you call it is a problem.
Or, more often than not, it is masking a problem.
Followed by this post which sent me searching bookstores. Trimpeys book was a key read for me, especially with regards to my own guilt and denial over W's drinking. As I type this, I'm making a note to reread it.
For more insight, you might want to look at the book Rational Recovery by Jack Trimpey. Different approach. Worked immediately for me. Not a one-day-at-a-time approach. Rather Starting-today-and-forever. Not forever on-going recovering. Recovered. Period. (though I over simplify)Higher success rate than AA.
But, your call, of course.
You do have a lot to offer. Thanks yet again dear friend!
And
your (flattering) remembering of
that post - last night - reminded me that yesterday, February 6 was the
four-year anniversary of my stopping drinking alcohol.
Imagine that!
Still not recovering.
Recovered.
Thanks.
JG,
Thank you for that!
Peace,
Awoken,
arrrrgg,I spent today trying to finish financial paperwork for my lawyers. I would much rather have watched the game (even with the eventual outcome). Out of necessity, I stayed in my bedroom with the laptop and all my papers trying to find all the remaining information.
With two days to go, it's 2:10 a.m. and I
just now finished up yet
another round of D paperwork (online to/from Mediator, actually).
"arrrrggg" is right!
I can't believe I've been going through this crap for well over three months. It seems like an eternity, but I realize so many of you have been here much, much longer. I realize I'm going be dealing with this for a very long time.
Today I'm just so tired. Just when I feel like I'm getting stronger, I fall back into panic, fear, and despair.
It's the seeming little things, that I shouldn't worry about, that seem to set me back the most. Today, W asked about my schedule two weekends from now. She is planning on more saturdays sleeping away from home. I can't help but assume there is another OM. But why should I care?!? I'm really ready to move on, ready for my own life. Right now we are stuck in the same house. I so wish I could just get the divorce done with, and yet I'm still grieving. Why would I still want this woman?
Or, this morning, I realized that I was feeling particularly down. I was unlikely to ever share another superbowl sunday with my W, I didn't share it with her last night, and I likely didn't share enough with her during our M.
I know this is just a big self-pity party I'm having. I know what I need to do: I need to keep on with GAL. It's just so hard to do it while we are in the same house together, and I'm so tired.
So after a night of no sleep, I've regressed from feeling sorry for myself, into the old feelings of panic and impatience!
W blocked me on facebook, and it's actually been a relief not to see her little updates show up on my page anymore. I got a facebook message last night from a friend that is still mutual friends with W, she asked if W had found a new boyfriend. She had posted something on her page about "closing one door and another one opens!". It could mean nothing.
But then I'm back to obsessing about W's insistence on having her own private cellphone, and now sleeping away from home on some saturdays. There must be OM, maybe the same one from the start. I feel like this is being rubbed in my face, and I just have to wait it out. Powerless and frustrated! I want to kick her out of the house, but I don't see how. I want to confront her and tell her I know what's up and and I don't want her anyway. These are the petty thoughts that nagged at me all night keeping me from sleeping.
Why do I care!?!? I'm getting divorced anyway.
C'mon friends. Talk some sense into me please!
Why do I care!?!? I'm getting divorced anyway.
Because you meant it when you said "I do." You care. And that's ok.
Work through the emotions. Everything you are describing is normal. And, I'm living the hurt, pain, anger, resentment cycle myself. And in the same house with stbxw. So, I know.
Recognize what you are feeling, let the emotions out, then get your focus back where it belongs - on YOU and your new future. I am doing this as well. I realized yesterday after getting some very good advice from a friend that I have allowed my focus turn back to my stbxw and whay she won'y work on the M, etc. My focus needs to be on me and moving forward. Focus on positive things and not the negatives from the past.
Awoken - g said it - focus back on YOU.
We all know that is where we need to be. Focusing on the WA does no damn good.
Hang in there.
How much longer do you have to live with her?
I am so sorry.
I agree, your hurt is totally justifiable, GAL your butt off.
Thanks GIMA, luvless, June; It's good to log in for a few minutes and get some support.
Yes, I need to move the focus back on me. I leave town early Thursday morning, and I'll have a good 4-5 days away from my sitch doing something I love with people I love. That should help some. I'll use the time to get my head back together too.
I've been thinking about this all morning; I really couldn't keep from it. I'm just gonna get it out of my system/mind.
There is some sharp irony here: The idea of the OM actually fuels my hope in the strangest way. I think I had assumed the OM was out of the picture. But now, with all the talk of busting affairs her in the forums, I can't help but think: what if I had busted this A, what if I try to bust it now? Would it change the outcome at all?
Then my worst fear comes out: my son calling another man "dad".
What ridiculous speculation! I know, there's nothing I can do about this, and I just need to move on and work on myself.
Pardon my complaining today; I'm sure I sound just like my first posts here. However, posting here is keeping me from texting, calling, planing any kind of contact with W about this.
June,
I don't know how much longer we'll be in the same house. I work from home 2-3 days a week, and neither of us have enough cash to but the other out of the equity in the home. My L says stay in the home. My IC yesterday says it will be best if we get separated as soon as possible.
I'm guessing it would be at least another 3 months?!?!
I have one area I could work on with W.
We have set up a schedule: M and W is supposed to be my night home with the kids. T and Th are supposed to her nights. We negotiate each weekend.
I've been staying away from the home on T/Th until late at night.
However, W has started coming home early on M and W, and interacting with us. I haven't said anything about it so far. I hardly want to interrupt her when she talking to the kids and say "ahem, it's MY night!", but that's how I feel.
This is a boundary I should set; how do I state it? how do I go about it?
My L says stay in the home.
Listen to your lawyer. Stay in the home.
Wow, my head is really in a fog.
I should have mentioned that I delivered my signed and notarized papers answering my W divorce complaint to my L's office this morning.
Presumably, her L will get them later this afternoon or week, and he will call my W.
We are filing a counter claim, basically asking for everything that my W asked.
I suppose I should be prepared for some anger-spew from W, instead of worrying about OM crap.
Oh my goodness, she is definitely putting oyu through the wringer emotionally.
Yes, I agree totally with your boundary.
I think the possibility of an OM is good in a weird way b/c you know that it really is on her end- the demise of the marriage.
As for your 13 son calling another man "dad"... Not a chance in this world! I was a D kid- as a teenager- you usually can't stand the OM or OW. My hubby works with middle schoolers all day long and they complain constantly about the OM, OW, step-parent. Seriously he hears this alot. I think it is rare for there to be bonding once a child is older, IMO.
3 months- ugg! Can you have a count-down calendar, maybe?
Sorry for your personal hell.
As for your 13 son calling another man "dad"... Not a chance in this world! ...I think it is rare for there to be bonding once a child is older, IMO.
Thanks June. I shouldn't be thinking about that, but your comments help.
(((Awoken)))
Don't have much to offer except hugs. Hang in there. Try not to let your mind go to speculations. Just prepare your mind for her reactions to the D filings so you won't be caught off guard.
Then go to NY and have a fabulous time with your friends!
I used to like roller coasters.
I had a good night, involved in GAL activity. I had a gig performing tuesday night. It's the night and venue where lots of local musicians come and sit in, so it's a real community type of thing. We all know each other, and there is a lot of camaraderie. I guess some word has spread about my sitch, although I haven't been talking about it. I do suppose some of this is conspicuous: I typically talk about my family all the time and now I don't; I've lost about 30 pounds, and changed my appearance, and I'm not wearing my wedding ring. Normally I wouldn't think anyone would even notice such things, but several people commented on it to me, and inquired how I was doing. I was both embarrassed, and touched that people I pretty much only know through music were concerned.
I had a good time, visited with lots of friends and met a lot of new people. It surprised me when two different women hit on me. One in particular was only in her 20's, and basically asked me out on a date. It was good for my ego, but I'm not interested or ready for anything like that. I'm still legally married, but also in my mind and heart. I got home late, after 1am, and was feeling in pretty good spirits after a night with friends and music.
This morning, while I was taking D17 to school and I was suddenly overwhelmed with sadness, and the tears just came.
We were in the car together, and there was no escaping it.
I've put up a good front for the kids, and she hasn't seen me tear up before. Of course she asked "what's wrong daddy!?", and I just told her I was having a sad day, and that it was a natural part of the grieving process. I remembered Gardner's words, and told her I would be ok, she would be ok, and we would always be ok.
I feel bad she saw me upset, and I hope I handled it ok. She hardly needs to be worried about me, although I know she does anyway. I'm hoping this trip to NY will give me some time to get my head together and regain my strength.
(((((((Awoken))))))
Glad you had a terrific time last night and so sorry for the tears in front of D17. It's ok that she knows you're sad about all this. And I think you handled it beautifully.
Deep breaths and just one more day and you'll be on your way to NY.
(()) I agree, there is no shame in allowing yourself to experience or express you emotions.
Then my worst fear comes out: my son calling another man "dad".
What ridiculous speculation! I know, there's nothing I can do about this, and I just need to move on and work on myself.
Sorry, I'm a little behind on everyone's sitch from being home with S1 but I know exactly what you mean about your worst fear....as I know you know in my sitch with an obvious OW weaved into my life this is a very real fear for me too. I have to admit that early on in my H's admission I thought about simply "checking out" of this life. (Those thoughts only lasted about 2 days)
Anyway, my point is this, we don't ever know where the road will lead and I absolutely believe in karma. What comes around goes around so IF their is an OM well then let's just wait and see but I'd bet my last dollar that your son will NEVER call anyone dad but you. Dad is so much more than just a place a man holds in a house....it is the everyday love and closeness and bonding that happens everyday with your kids. Believe me I know, I had an incredible dad who I believe is my guardian angel these days.
Just sayin'
-JG
I'm hoping this trip to NY will give me some time to get my head together and regain my strength.
With all the weather going on, I hope you MAKE it to NY!! You might be on another roller coaster just trying to get there.
Arrgg. Very frustrating. My flight to NY may have been canceled. Two of the other musicians flights have been canceled. We hope to all get there eventually. I'm really looking forward to this weekend as a chance to clear my head.
Another note. I purchased some valentine's day cards for my kids. They were large, with lots of room to write inside. I wrote both of them pretty long letters inside.
I told them in detail what it meant to me to be a father.
I told them I told them how unique and special they each are.
I told them I knew how hard the last 3+ months had been.
I told them that no matter what happens, I will ok, and we will be ok. I will always be there for them.
I took them to dinnner to their favorite restaurant tonight, and surprised them with the cards, some cheesy target brand chocolates, and a small valentines gift for each of them. We've always done small gifts at valentines day, but I think we all sensed this was special.
They were both very touched by the cards, but of course showed it in different ways. D17 teared up and gave me a big hug. I think she looked a little relieved. Maybe that's just my hope.
S13 grunted a simple thanks, and diverted his attention to the box of chocolates. However, after dinner at blockbuster, S13 pulled me aside and said "dad, you know I don't like to talk about feelings at all, but thanks for the card."
It was a good night I think.
Awwww, that's sweet. I wish V-day would disappear this year, but I'm going to smile and make a big fuss about it with the kids, because it's a celebration of love, and love is pretty important.
Sorry to hear about your plans for the weekend being shaky though.
Thanks flowmom,
Well, the agent just called and my flight is still on.
Thank goodness.
I hope you do make a fuss over V day for your kids! You deserve it.
AGAIN! Arrrggggghhh.
I'm in New York performing. I should be having a great time. It's beautiful here; and pretty cold. The gig is going pretty well. It's just that the musio making really brings my emotions straight to the surface. I can't pretend when I'm playing.
I'm in a great hotel room (a suite!), and I can't help but think that if things were different, I would be here with my W.
I've had a couple of women want to spend time with me here, but honestly I'm just feeling too sad (and it's too soon).
I don't know what to say; I guess I feel like V day is going to be a tough day for ne. I need to prepare for it. I hope my friends here are gonna do ok too.
Get your focus ahead on the positives, not looking backward.
Truly enjoy all that is around oyu this weekend. And find some things to do for you. Be selfish. It's ok.
Awoken.
D17 and S13 truly do have a wonderful dad!
Awoken, I play no instruments, but I always though that
this It's just that the music making really brings my emotions straight to the surface. I can't pretend when I'm playing.
I've always asssumed that emotion and pain
adds to and amplifies the truth that is manifested in the performance (this, of course, coming from a talent-less non- musician, but one who knows and feels what he's experiencing/feeling).
I'm in a great hotel room (a suite!), and I can't help but think that if things were different, I would be here with my W.
I can certainly appreciate
that! I've had a couple of women want to spend time with me here, but honestly I'm just feeling too sad (and it's too soon).
I strongly feel the soon too part, too.
don't know what to say; I guess I feel like V day is going to be a tough day for ne. I need to prepare for it. I hope my friends here are gonna do ok too.
We'll all be fine. Sorry, I didn't make it to gig, tonight (see msg in .alt.)
But I'll spend some Valentine's day with you tomorrow!. We can commiserate. And celebrate.)
Awoken,
My reply disappeared!
I'll try again,
Thank you so much for tonight. Dinner and conversation were wonderful, though too short by far. I felt like we were two old friends!
The show was great. You are one talented and personable musician. Rene is a natural.
Good to see you after the show, too. Thank you for introducing me to Rene.
Hey, in one night, I GALed, 180ed (Jazz), did something impulsive, got out of my comfort zone and got to meet a true (no-longer-cyber) friend!
Hey, I could get used to this.
I hope you got through V-day OK, awoken.
Thanks flowmom,
your short post/inquiry meant a lot to me. I've got a lot on my mind tonight, after returning to my cold cold home.
I did get through it mostly ok. I met a new friend, saw many old ones, and had a great time making music.
I'm feeling ...well upset after the weekend. I think I made some bad choices, and there was turmoil back home while I was gone. I'll post about it in a little while after I've thought some more.
By the way, I really get a lot out of your various posts. I remember when you first got here. You such a great part of this community, so thank you.
Thank you so much for tonight. Dinner and conversation were wonderful, though too short by far. I felt like we were two old friends!
Thank you too. I too felt like we were old friends, although I just called you a "new friend" in my post to flowmom.
I really wanted to stay and talk/listen so much more. It really was too short, but quality nonetheless.
I am really glad you liked the show, and I hope it lifted your spirits as it does for me. We do one song called "Strange Meadowlark" that (at least to me) is about LBS and db'ing. Per the lyrics, I'm trying to "sing away the dark"
Strange Meadowlark; Dave Brubeck
What a strange meadow lark
to be singing oh so sweetly in the park
tonight.
All alone meadow lark
are you dreaming of the moons that burned so bright
and of love in flight?
Can't you sleep meadow lark?
Is there nothing left but whistling in the dark
so sad?
Was it love meadow lark?
Were the songs you sang last summer crazy mad?
Think of all you had.
A quiet nest up in the clouds where the soft winds blow.
Far from all the noisy crowds where the earthbound go.
Your wings have pressed against a star --
boundless were the skies.
You may have flown too high too far --
love is seldom wise.
Don’t you see meadow lark
though you try your call won’t turn another lark
in flight?
He has gone meadow lark.
You can sing your song until the dawn brings light --
sing with all your might. . . .
Sing away the dark . . . little meadow lark, meadow lark, meadow lark.
Awoken,
That was great! I'll have to listen to that one. As I said last night, Dave Brubeck lives in my town. He provided the funds for a Brubeck auditorium addition to the town library so, naturally - and fortunately -the library has every CD he's ever recorded.
Thanks again for last night. Let me know of any upcoming gigs within, say, two hours of me or thereabouts.
And I repeat: I loved your playing.
And, yes, the music, the dinner, the discussion, most definitely "lifted my spirits."
All the best!
I've got some things on my mind, and I need to post them.
When I picked up D17 tonight, she confided in me that S13 and W had a big fight Sunday. I've only got the bare outlines of what happened. D17 knows I don't want her in the middle.
W had started drinking again, and both kids noticed that she was drunk. She wanted to know who they thought should have the house. We S13 told her that he thought I should stay in the house because I work there, that's when the yelling started. Once mom started yelling S13 confronted her about the drinking, and told her he didn't want to talk her when she is like that. D17 came down when she heard the yelling, and tried to intervene.
At one point, W asked them if they would prefer she was out of their lives. D17 told her that would be much worse than just the divorce, and of course they want her in their lives. They want 50/50 custody. W said I was telling them to say these things, and both kids got very angry at her and corrected her, basically standing up for me. I hate that they need to do that.
They eventually made some peace, calming mom down.
Now, I'm hearing all this second hand. Still, when we meet to discuss the D, this kinda of stuff has to be addressed. Both the drinking and her meds are a factor.
I think I made some bad choices while I was in NY, and it's left me with some more emotional baggage. OR, I'm just overthinking everything. One thing for sure, returning home and returning to reality has been hard today.
Thursday, a woman I've known professionally over the past 10 years came to the show. She is a fan of our singer, and often comes to the shows when we are in NY. Afterward, we hung out with one of the other musicians. She of course wanted to know how I was doing, and the details of my sitch came out.
She texted me later, saying what a good time she had hanging out, and wanted to come to the saturday show, and maybe hangout again afterwards. I was thinking, GAL! Some platonic female attention could be good for me. So I said sure.
We ended up staying out together after the show until well after sunrise. Nothing physical happened, just lots of talking. But it was date like; romantic. It was the kind of thing were neither of us wanted to go, so we just kept saying lets go to another place.
I think we both sensed that it was getting out of hand.
I texted her on Sunday, told her thank you for a fun evening, and told her she had lifted my spirits. I haven't heard back from her.
Somehow, instead of making me feel better about myself, I find that I'm feeling much worse about my sitch in general. I know that some people here advise dating others; I'm not seeing this work for me at all.
Any thoughts?
Awoken, what an unpleasant family situation to come home to. I feel sad for your children that they are having to deal with your W's craziness. And sad for you that you can't count on the mother of your children to act based on their well-being. I wish you the strength you'll need to take action on this.
I can understand your having mixed feelings about spending that time with your female friend. Next time a situation arises, you can commit to checking in with yourself to see if it feels right in your gut.
Awoken,
Spending hours innocently talking about your sitch during a painful time of your life to a friend of ten years while roaming the streets of NYC and doing nothing physical even if it felt "date-like"?
I see nothing wrong here. Talking. Unburdening.
If you want to beat yourself up, go stand in the kitchen and whack your head with the frying pan a few times.
However,
this:
When I picked up D17 tonight, she confided in me that S13 and W had a big fight Sunday. I've only got the bare outlines of what happened. D17 knows I don't want her in the middle.
W had started drinking again, and both kids noticed that she was drunk. She wanted to know who they thought should have the house. We S13 told her that he thought I should stay in the house because I work there, that's when the yelling started. Once mom started yelling S13 confronted her about the drinking, and told her he didn't want to talk her when she is like that. D17 came down when she heard the yelling, and tried to intervene.
Just
screams out for some no-holds-barred boundary-setting and possible court/Child Protective Services intervention, imo.
Hang in there.
If you want to beat yourself up, go stand in the kitchen and whack your head with the frying pan a few times.
ha! Well, yes I kinda want to do that now.
Just screams out for some no-holds-barred boundary-setting and possible court/Child Protective Services intervention, imo.
sigh, yes. I'll talk to my L today.
My only witnesses are the kids, and they will not want to cooperate. I don't want them to testify against their M.
This wasn't at the level of the incident right before Christmas, but maybe I'm kidding myself again.
ARRRGGGHH! I'm a mess today.
W has texted me three times this morning, which is like a flood compared to the past few weeks. Instead of her usual cold, blunt, and very brief style that I've grown so used to these past months, so is sending complete paragraphs, starting with "hi!" and including cheerful inquiries. The first text was asking about S13's plans for after school (she already knows them). She asked if I had a good trip back from new york. The last one was wishing me a good day.
And I'm very stupid: everytime the phone beeped, I found myself checking to see if it was from NY girl. Then inevitable frustration that it was from W. Cue the frying pan to the head.
This is NOT a good place to be. I have more important things to be worried about.
Again, what is going on with W? I need to respond to the texts, I don't really want to....which is very sad. When I respond, do I need to be cheerful or just stick to business?
What is going on with me? Is this detachment? it kinda sucks.
I need to figure out AGAIN where I am on everything.
Awoken, is your W trying to suck up to you to prevent your taking action on what happened on the weekend? I'm suspicious. If she has asked a question that you have to answer, I would text back politely and very briefly, but don't get chatty.
I'm sorry you're going through angst about NY woman. It sounds like you really connected with her, and that's leaving you feeling vulnerable. Vulnerability is good, it's what allows us to enjoy so many of life's pleasures. But we need to create safe situations in which we can let ourselves feel vulnerable.
I'm suspicious. If she has asked a question that you have to answer, I would text back politely and very briefly, but don't get chatty.
I'm suspicious too. I did just what said. I answered the question only. I'm sure my text was very cold.
I came home early tonight as well. Saw her for the first time in 8 days, but I didn't say a word. I think it's the wrong tack to take, since it seems so hostile. But I just don't want to talk to her right now or even really see her.
At this point, I'm not really db'ing very well at all. I should be at least presenting the wonderful man she is giving up, not an angry distant guy that feels her with guilt. But, she is likely still in an A, and she is still drinking and letting it affect our children.
I didn't reach my L today. I will try again first thing in the morning.
I'm sorry you're going through angst about NY woman. It sounds like you really connected with her.
It's really silly. I feel like I'm in high school again. I do think we connected, but she has stopped texting me. Monday, I checked the phone all day like school boy, to see if she had called. I think we were both aware the situation was getting inappropriate. Honestly, my reaction has truly taken me by surprise. I've been in a R with my W for nearly two decades, and been completely faithful.
There is an opportunity here for me to understand my W's EA, and PA if there is one. Some of the angst I'm feeling is some part guilt, but really the worst is realizing how empty my M has become and how my emotional needs have not been met for a long time. This is something like how my W feels. I knew this already, but it's something else to experience it.
It also says something about my co-dependence, and need for companionship. I need to focus on myself and my kids.
(((Awoken)))
I came home early tonight as well. Saw her for the first time in 8 days, but I didn't say a word. I think it's the wrong tack to take, since it seems so hostile. But I just don't want to talk to her right now or even really see her.
At this point, I'm not really db'ing very well at all. I should be at least presenting the wonderful man she is giving up, not an angry distant guy that feels her with guilt.
I'm wondering if this 'going dark' isn't a bad thing at all. She doesn't want you in her life anymore, so let her feel the reality of that. Give yourself some space and room to work on yourself. (Especially with these unexpected emotions running through you right now.)
Hang in there. You CAN do this.
awoken,
Honestly, my reaction has truly taken me by surprise. I've been in a R with my W for nearly two decades, and been completely faithful.
That's your integrity.
There is an opportunity here for me to understand my W's EA, and PA if there is one. Some of the angst I'm feeling is some part guilt, for what? but really the worst is realizing how empty my M has become and how my emotional needs have not been met for a long time. This is something like how my W feels. I knew this already, but it's something else to experience it.
That's your empathy and compassion.
It also says something about my co-dependence, and need for companionship. I need to focus on myself and my kids.
I still go back to the
original definition of co-dependent that has been so widely co-opted and over/misused: A co-dependent is one who enables, excuses, covers up for, facilitates, etc., a substance abuser's addiction. That is
not you.
Oh, and, "...need for companionship." That is a basic human need. I'd be worried if you
didn't have it and feel it deeply.
You're a good man, Awoken. I know. I've seen him and listened to him. Lighten up on yourself a bit, okay?
Lighten up on yourself a bit, okay?
Thanks, I needed that.
I got it from S13 today too.
I took him and D17 to dinner tonite, and they started some serious bickering. I eventually had to intervene, and told them we just needed to stick together right now. S13 was still pretty upset, and I asked him what he needed.
He said he was just "so tired of all the pity and sadness".
I thought I had been doing a pretty good job of hiding my feelings, but they really see everything. So I'm gonna get back to serious work on PMA.
By the way, their argument was over optimism vs. pessimism. S13 now advocates pessimism as the best way to protect himself from inevitable pain. Think optimism only leads to disappointment so why bother. Phew. Before our sitch, he was the most optimistic one.
I'll get my PMA together, and show him a better alternative.
By the way, their argument was over optimism vs. pessimism. S13 now advocates pessimism as the best way to protect himself from inevitable pain. Think optimism only leads to disappointment so why bother. Phew. Before our sitch, he was the most optimistic one.
WHOA! NO, NO, and, um NO!
Pick up a copy of "Learned Optimism" by Martin Seligman. Optimism IS the way. Pessimism = depression.
And on the thing with the innocent friendship with the woman you hung out with this weekend, I agree with Gardener - take it easy on yourself. Nothing wrong with what you did or what you are feeling.
Awoken,
Good for you. Consider telling him that becoming pessimistic is a perfectly natural and completely understandable response to the pain he's been witnessing and experiencing and that you understand this.
Also plant the seed that a pessimist is one who often doesn't enjoy life or do "what's right, what's best or what's fun', because of X, while an optimist enjoys life and will do them despite X.
Ask him which he thinks is the stronger stance.
And with the PMA: You're the Dad. You've got to lead on this, model this. Hell, fake it for now, just so long as they see it in you and are able to take their cue from you.
Thanks GIMA and Gardner.
I've got "Learned Optimism." Been working out of it, but I need to get back to it. I haven't shown much optimism lately have I?
It was a struggle not to mention the book to my son; I know he wasn't ready to hear anything right then anyway. Just needed to be listened to for the most part.
I have Learned Optimism. Found it good but a tad tedious in the beginning (which is, admittedly as far as I got so fa)r.
But I must say that it might be a bit much, a bit overwhelming for a 13 yr,old or 17 yr. old.
Agreed it is a bit much for a 13 year old.
It's really silly. I feel like I'm in high school again.
That "high school" feeling is the feeling of losing control, and I can understand why that would be really scary for you right now. But normal!
The wonder and excitement that you felt as you enjoyed your NY friend came from
you, not from your friend.
"someone held up a mirror and showed you your heart"-- Byron Katie
Thanks Flowmom; That's a great point, the feelings do come from me.
I like the Byron Katie quote, and remember you read her books. Are they working good for you?
This morning, W overslept for her job again. It's the second time ever. The first time, she had drank her to sleep and was too drunk to hear set the alarm. I presume it was the same this time.
She usually leaves around 5:30-6am. I get up at 6-6:30 to get the kids to school. This morning, when I got up I noticed that our dog (really her dog) that usually sleeps with W, was stuck in the hallway. I assumed that W had just forgot to let him downstairs before she left. Turns out he had slept in the hallway all night.
I'm making breakfast in the kitchen when she stomps in, cussing and angry about being late to work. I didn't say a word, and just got out of the way. 4 months ago this would've been a big 180 for me, since I'm always the one to step up and help her. She has said she resents this.
Still, I felt pretty hostile about doing nothing to help. I think it falls under NC, not pursuing, letting her have her consequences. But, I still doubt if it's the right direction.
I suppose it might have been better to cheerfully offer her help, get her coffee, ect...
I just don't know. Any thoughts?
I suppose it might have been better to cheerfully offer her help, get her coffee, ect...
I just don't know. Any thoughts?
I understand your feeling b/c I am living that now as well. But, where di being the "nice, friendly guy" get you? You are on the right course - just stick with it.
It feels weird, I know. But, at this point, it isn't about her. It's about YOU. AndNC gives you a way to protect yourself and give her a dose of reality of what her new life will be like.
I am NOT suggesting you turn into an a$$ (I don't think you could). Just only speak when spoken to, and only when you fell like it.
Awoken, sending more hugs your way.
It sounds like she is crashing and burning. This is a case where al-anon would probably have the best advice, but it seems like a "get out of the way" kind of situation. It must be so hard to watch, but really you're a bystander when it comes to her drinking.
I like the Byron Katie quote, and remember you read her books. Are they working good for you?
Doing The Work is actually one of the few things that seems to bring me peace for a few hours and relieves me from the mental torture of trying to fix my sitch in my head.
(((hugs))) right back to you FlowMom!
I'm feeling better today; because I'm choosing to.
I'm trying to goto my al-anon meeting this saturday morning.
I'm feeling better today; because I'm choosing to.
That's the ticket... right there!
Still, I felt pretty hostile about doing nothing to help. I think it falls under NC, not pursuing, letting her have her consequences. But, I still doubt if it's the right direction.
I suppose it might have been better to cheerfully offer her help, get her coffee, ect...
I just don't know. Any thoughts?
I am proud of your resolve, Awoken. You did not act as her enabler!
Consequences!Good going.
I am proud of your resolve, Awoken. You did not act as her enabler!
Consequences!
Good going.
THIS!!! One of my favorite words.
Well, consequences may have some effect.
Today, W called because she needed help finding her way around town to take S13 to his band clinic. She stayed on the phone and tried to make some small talk. I gave her some basic directions, and then said I needed to go. She then sent me several nice texts thanking me. This from ms.hostility.
Her lawyer has not responded to my L's phone call, or acknowledged receipt of our answer and counter claim to W's filing. I'm just wondering who is dragging their feet here.
Most likely it's the lawyers.
Is that her responding to consequences, or still sucking up to you and hoping that you don't nail her for her atrocious parenting?
I hope that the al-anon meeting goes well tomorrow. I hope that helps you to put all this into perspective...
Why do I bother time/brain power on trying to figure out why STBXW is doing anything?
She may be sucking up
She may be feeling guilty
She may be having second thoughts; doubtful!
I can't read her mind. I don't think I would want to if I could.
I hope that the al-anon meeting goes well tomorrow. I hope that helps you to put all this into perspective...
I had to miss the al-anon meeting this morning
I took D17 to get her driver's license. The only appointment I could get this morning. Thankfully, she passed. It's scary how easy the road test is!
We went to lunch to celebrate.
It was wonderful.We talked for a couple of hours about everything in her life. I know its often mentioned as one of the positives about our sitches, but it's true that I'm growing closer to my kids each day.
It's tough, but we are gonna be ok.
I'll go to the very next al-anon meeting.
"It's tough, but we are gonna be ok."
You have no idea how much I needed to hear this. Thanks man.
For whatever reason, I'm handling today's stress pretty well.
stbxw is out for the day and sleeping somewhere else tonight. I presume it's OM. I get to spend the day and night with my kids.
It's sad letting go this way. In some weird way, I'm missing that part of me that was so attached to W. This can't be very good DB'ing.
I read several old threads this afternoon, before making this post. In particular I read all 32 pages of Serenity's first thread. Somewhere in there, Puppy said something like "you'll know your done when you reach disgust". I do feel disgusted with W and her selfish choices. I'm wondering now if I'm done with this.
Good thing I don't have to make any choices right now. I can wait, and pray for clarity.
GIMA,
I was just about to run over to your thread to post about my afternoon with D17, when I saw your post here.
Today, while my daughter dazzled me with her thoughts about everything, and her openness to tell me her deepest thoughts, I thought briefly about you and your worries about time with your kids post D. You know we both share the same worries.
It occurred to me that this one lunch with my daughter, and our bonding over it, is something we will both never forget. Regardless of what happens in the future, D17 and I will have many more moments like this to treasure. Somehow, I a little less concerned about losing my day to day contact with D17 and S13.
Awoken, it sounds like the time that you had with your D was lovely. It must have been really special for her to have you celebrating that milestone with her.
I'm glad you're letting go of mind-reading your W.
Awoken,
I am very happy for you and your daughter!
We went to lunch to celebrate. It was wonderful.
We talked for a couple of hours about everything in her life
It occurred to me that this one lunch with my daughter, and our bonding over it, is something we will both never forget. Regardless of what happens in the future, D17 and I will have many more moments like this to treasure. Somehow, I a little less concerned about losing my day to day contact with D17 and S13.
It's tough, but we are gonna be ok
Remember my post to you when S13
finally opened up to you earlier this month? The one about my "Adirondack Chair Moment" with my Son at my apartment back when
he was 13?
"You will be alright! I will be alright! You and I will be alright. Always."
May you, too, have the joy of Son and Daughter suddenly recounting these special moments with you
years from now like I had recently!
Good job, Dad.
((Awoken))
So glad you had a good day yesterday! You are such a wonderful Dad and your kids will always remember these moments.
Somehow, I a little less concerned about losing my day to day contact with D17 and S13.
Glad you're starting to feel this way. They will be grown before you know it anyway.
Well, I made it through the weekend.
W spent Saturday away from home, and spent the night out somewhere else. S13 had a band clinic all day Saturday, and a concert today.
W and I had already agreed that I would pick him up saturday, and take him to and from the concert today.
D17 and I both attended the concert. W showed up too, coming from who knows where. D17 and I were dressed casually but nice for the concert. W showed up in workout clothes. I know everyone says this about their WAS, but she did not look good: thin, gaunt, and weathered. She sat with us, D17 in the middle.
We didn't speak a word. It must be difficult for D17. She spent time talking to both of us, but held my hand. I thought this must be uncomfortable for W too.
There was no cell reception in the auditorium, and W left several times to use her phone. duh. I suppose that's better than having her do it right next to us. Of course, I'm assuming a lot here. She could just be texting with her pro-divorce friends. When the concert was done, W bolted for the door with only a muttered "goodbye" to the two of us.
I'm disgusted and tired. I know I've only been at this for four months, and many of you have been here so much longer. I'm worried that my detachment is taking me to a place with busting this divorce matters nothing to me. My urge right now is to call my lawyer first thing in the morning and find out what we can do to get the process moving. I know she has not heard back from my w's lawyer.
I still believe in marriage; I still don't think divorce is the way the handle problems in a marriage. Pushing the divorce now, could be what I need to do to show W what she stands to lose. But on the other hand, maybe I need to draw the divorce process out as long as possible?
I have to consider the continued risk of her drinking and being of meds, but so far it does not appear to be getting worse, and maybe it's improved a little.
This feels like a crossroad decision: push the divorce or try to wait it out.
Friends, what are your thoughts?
I'm hoping a few more of you veterans will chime in this time.
Does it make you feel better that I am in the EXACT same boat? I'm going on about 3 months now and I'm feeling pressure to file but also think about waiting it out just a bit more.
I'm disgusted and tired too
feel you more than anything. I too am also worried that getting too detached will push me towards no turning back. I guess that's why I haven't totally detached because of that reason.
I'm hearing you A....loud and clear. I can't offer you advice but I needed to let you know I'm where you're at emotionally and chronologically.
Oh...and btw - my H looks like crap right now too. It's not just me either it's everyone saying he doesn't look himself (he's gained 18 lbs)
(((luvless)))
I can't say it makes me feel better as I'm sorry you're in the same place as me! The detachment makes some of this easier to handle, but it comes with its own drawbacks doesn't it?
hang in there.
Thanks A -
I'm on the alt if you need to talk.
Hugs back.
(((Awoken)))
I'm not a vet but hopefully the bump helps
.
Awoken,
I'm disgusted and tired... My urge right now is to call my lawyer first thing in the morning and find out what we can do to get the process moving.
Invoke the 48-hour rule. In fact, if you're disgusted and tired, take no actions at all until the disgusted and tired is gone (or at least lessens a bit).
Other than that, no real advice for you sitch-wise right now because...
I'm disgusted and tired.
Invoke the 48-hour rule. In fact, if you're disgusted and tired, take no actions at all until the disgusted and tired is gone (or at least lessens a bit).
Yes, this.
Pushing the divorce now, could be what I need to do to show W what she stands to lose.
I think this could help wake her up, but you have to be ready for the outcome if this doesn't happen.
I have to consider the continued risk of her drinking and being of meds, but so far it does not appear to be getting worse, and maybe it's improved a little.
Don't kid yourself here - until she gets some REAL help, the problem is still there. It just hasn't reared it's ugly head lately. It doesn't matter that it "does not appear to be getting worse" - it's bad enough as it is. Of course, she's the only one that can help herself. Just keep in mind the effect on your kids.
((Awoken)) Hang in there.
A,
Limbo is no place to be. Walk two paths - one that allows the door to remain open to working on the M (if you want that AND she is willing to DO THE WORK) and the other moving on with your new life.
She is either coming back or she's already gone. I don't think she will decide to come back as long as the status quo remains unchanged. But, this cannot be the reason you are moving forward. You are moving forward for YOU, and no other reason.
Thanks Sister!
Thanks Gima:
I agree with what you are saying. I think it's possible for me to continue with my own life, and not hasten the divorce, as hard as it will be. At this point, I have almost nothing to do with W, except for co-parenting and splitting house bills. It looks like little of that will change once we D, except I we will not share a home.
I think my question still stands, but I'll think hard about what you said. Thanks as always, my friend.
Just in case I can get some more varied input to my current question, I'm posting it again to bump it. I hope some of you that used to post on my thread might chime in again.
I'm disgusted and tired. I know I've only been at this for four months, and many of you have been here so much longer. I'm worried that my detachment is taking me to a place with busting this divorce matters nothing to me. My urge right now is to call my lawyer first thing in the morning and find out what we can do to get the process moving. I know she has not heard back from my w's lawyer.
I still believe in marriage; I still don't think divorce is the way the handle problems in a marriage. Pushing the divorce now, could be what I need to do to show W what she stands to lose. But on the other hand, maybe I need to draw the divorce process out as long as possible?
I have to consider the continued risk of her drinking and being of meds, but so far it does not appear to be getting worse, and maybe it's improved a little.
This feels like a crossroad decision: push the divorce or try to wait it out.
Friends, what are your thoughts?
Thanks Sister!
Thanks Gima:
I agree with what you are saying. I think it's possible for me to continue with my own life, and not hasten the divorce, as hard as it will be. At this point, I have almost nothing to do with W, except for co-parenting and splitting house bills. It looks like little of that will change once we D, except I we will not share a home.
I think my question still stands, but I'll think hard about what you said. Thanks as always, my friend.
You have just described my current existence. And, I am getting pretty good at it, unfortunately. Fire away with any questions. It's a tough place if you don't have your focus on the right direction - FORWARD.
Awoken - was thinking about another conversation we had and ran across this in Gardener's thread - didn't know if you had seen it, but thought you could use this...
cth,
So what are modern rules on something like this. We're both still married so I don't think it's appropriate to just call her up and ask her out. She is on FaceBook -- I got her last name before she left. I was considering just sending her a friend invite and saying it was great to meet her.
As you may know, after my premature "crash and burn episode,"my current philosophy/approach is now two-fold:
It was recommended (I forget where) to go through one year alone. One cycle:1 Christmas, 1 New Years, 1 Valentines' Day, 1 Thanksgiving, etc.
I plan on doing this.
Healing time: Who IS Gardener? - alone?
And I've got a lot of 180ing and GALing, self-improvement yet to do.
The "Modern Rules?"
What are ClingingToHope's (hopefully well-thought-out) rules?
I plan on just discovering writing, and living my life for the most part and "seeing who shows up".** I want NO exclusive relationships (the occasional casual, sure) , but right now, I admit to a strong need and desire for female company and conversation. That's all. (well, not really, ALL wink ), but the the other has been absent for so long, I can wait a bit longer until it's right and replete with affection, nurturing, concern, etc., and not just a physical/mindless/soul-less act.
But, hey, that's just me. smile
** In your case, she showed up. Nothing wrong with talking, learning. Being interested. Just Don't Pursue!
What do you want from her? From you? From you with her?
Why - really why - do you not want to let this pleasant, positive, casual encounter with this not-the-only-woman-in-the-world just be? Something nice that happened to CTH. Period. Why have to build on it?
Do it again. Somewhere else. Somewhere WAY outside your comfort zone!
What's the more? here, for ClingingToHope? What's the need? Why the her? (Because she showed interest in ClingingToHope? (self-esteem)?
Just askin'. So you'll ask.
Ask your questions. Then answer them. Answers will come. Act on them.
As always, more-than-you-needed-or-wanted-to-know, crazy
BUMP
This feels like a crossroad decision: push the divorce or try to wait it out.
Friends, what are your thoughts?
I'm exactly where you are at so I can't offer you advice. I'm still contemplating what to do myself
Awoken, I think you can feel done on the inside without taking immediate action on the outside. Could you give yourself one week to just be with being done on the inside?
I think flowmom gives good advice.
It seems common for people (I'm a perfect example) to feel completely *done* one day and a few days later they might not be so *done*.
I'm taking the advice and waiting a week or two before filing, even if no one else does.
Bumping for Awoken who really wants input from his peeps!
Just in case I can get some more varied input to my current question, I'm posting it again to bump it. I hope some of you that used to post on my thread might chime in again.
I'm disgusted and tired. I know I've only been at this for four months, and many of you have been here so much longer. I'm worried that my detachment is taking me to a place with busting this divorce matters nothing to me. My urge right now is to call my lawyer first thing in the morning and find out what we can do to get the process moving. I know she has not heard back from my w's lawyer.
I still believe in marriage; I still don't think divorce is the way the handle problems in a marriage. Pushing the divorce now, could be what I need to do to show W what she stands to lose. But on the other hand, maybe I need to draw the divorce process out as long as possible?
I have to consider the continued risk of her drinking and being of meds, but so far it does not appear to be getting worse, and maybe it's improved a little.
This feels like a crossroad decision: push the divorce or try to wait it out.
Friends, what are your thoughts?
Awoken,
Several thoughts:
I also agree that flowmom's got this one pegged.
Four months is
not a long time (I know - it's an eternity. We've all felt that.).
Here's Gypsy's oft-repeated approach:
If it feels right, do it
If it feels wrong, don't
If you're
waffling or unsure, don't
You're asking the question/listing the options
This feels like a crossroad decision: push the divorce or try to wait it out.
Until and unless you wake up one morning and every fiber of your being is screaming,"
push the divorce!," I say don't. Isn't Michelle's guideline one month of DBing for every year of marriage as the average timeframe in successful busters?
have to consider the continued risk of her drinking and being of meds, but so far it does not appear to be getting worse, and maybe it's improved a little.
Don't kid yourself here - until she gets some REAL help, the problem is still there. It just hasn't reared it's ugly head lately. It doesn't matter that it "does not appear to be getting worse" - it's bad enough as it is. Of course, she's the only one that can help herself. Just keep in mind the effect on your kids.
However,
this is a big Sword of Damocles hanging over your sitch.
Hang in there. No part of our sitches is ever easy.
Thank you Flowmom for the bumps. Maybe few others are commenting because there is no good answer for my question, or maybe the advice I've gotten already covers it.
Gardener: I need to pull the DR book back out and re-read it again. When I started to suspect W of going through my things, I started keeping my copy away from the home.
I admit, 1 month for each year of marriage now sounds daunting. That would be 32 months, and I would have a little over two years ago. When I started here, I would've said that I would wait forever, but now something has changed. Part of it is that I feel like, in many ways, I've been waiting on my W for much of the past 17 years.
A good friend said something to me in a text message that has me thinking more. He said that pushing the divorce doesn't mean that I'm done. I'm of course worried that it is not going to serve my DB efforts. I'm not pursuing, and I've gained some serious detachment at this point. But I believe in marriage, and I don't want to quit too soon. On the other hand, early on both Puppy and Sandi recommended that I file for D first. I've been hoping they might show up again to comment.
Right now, I think you are right, if I'm unsure then don't push it. For all I know, the D might be moving along anyway. I have to watch over my kids ( and W) pretty closely.
I think your friend would remind you DB'ing is about saving YOU. Everything else follows that.
I wasn't sure weather to post this next thing, but I think it's better just to get it out, since it's weighing heavy on my mind tonight.
One of my close childhood friends, and my olders sisters BIL, committed suicide this past Sunday. I don't know many of the details. He had a lot of problems as an adult, including losing his job, and his house. It looks like his wife may have left him, and that was the final straw for him. He has a son about the age of my S13, who was there in the house with him.
I had not been in tough with him since we were teenagers. I'm going to the funeral on Friday. Our two families have been close over the years.
So, as I ponder my current sitch, I can't help but worry about my W's state of mind. I'm not trying to be dramatic, I just still have some guilt to deal with over not seeing her increased drinking over the past few years. She did try suicide a couple of years ago, which I though we had handled well. She returned to a psychiatrist for a while, and appeared to get better. This will be the longest she has gone without meds, so it is uncharted territory for me, plus I have almost NC with her.
I think your friend would remind you DB'ing is about saving YOU. Everything else follows that.
I'm listening closely!
I think one of the hard parts about this limbo, is too much time to think. To get off track.
Thank you GIMA.
Wow...my BIL's good friend just committed suicide last weekend...what makes someone feel that kind of desperation?
I don't know luvless. I don't understand it. I can only say there are worse places to be than my own sitch. I'm thankful for all the blessings I have, now more than ever before.
I admit, 1 month for each year of marriage now sounds daunting. That would be 32 months, and I would have a little over two years ago. When I started here, I would've said that I would wait forever, but now something has changed. Part of it is that I feel like, in many ways, I've been waiting on my W for much of the past 17 years.
I wasn't recommending it. Besides, if I recall it's presented in the book almost anecdotaly. As one of the things that they (busted Ds) seem to have in common.
Wow. 32 years. I'd forgotten that. Anyway, that makes my point better than I did. 32 months sounds extreme. But perhaps 4 months is extreme on the other end of the scale.
I do understand the 17-year-feeling you have, though.
On the other hand, early on both Puppy and Sandi recommended that I file for D first. I've been hoping they might show up again to comment.
puppy and/or Sandi advice trump Gardener advice, that's for sure.
Awoken,
I am so very sorry for your friend's death. Death is sad enough, but when it is intentionally self-inflicted, it is tragic.
Wow...my BIL's good friend just committed suicide last weekend...what makes someone feel that kind of desperation?
IMO, it's a belief that you are helpless to change your situation. Human nature is to give up once you allow yourself to accept this untruth. So, the lesson is don't accept the falsehood that we do not have the power to affect our situations.
I think your friend would remind you DB'ing is about saving YOU. Everything else follows that.
I'm listening closely!
I think one of the hard parts about this limbo, is too much time to think. To get off track.
Thank you GIMA.
Coach told me a story one time that really helped me when I was stuck in limbo. And it had to do with a group of Marines who were pinned down on a beach. The Marines were hiding behind posts on the beachhead. The enemy was shooting bullets that were slowly destroying the posts. The commander came around and tried to get his men to advance forward, towards the firing enemy. He convinced his men to move by telling them that if they remained behind the posts, they would eventually face certain death. If they advanced, they might die, but they had a chance of surviving. Stagnant = death. Advancing = you got a chance.
Choice is your's.
Awoken, I'm so sorry to read of your friend taking his life, and of the circumstances. I agree that suicide is borne of hopelessness and desperation. It is so sad that in our society we do such a poor job of nursing our "walking wounded"...those who are in such distress.
I can understand your concerns about your W. I really hope that you can go to an al-anon meeting soon. Your W's addiction drama is triggering these D thoughts, and I think that it could help you to detangle some of the threads so that you can feel clear before making any decisions.
Well, my concerns about weather to push the divorce or not were wasted energy I think.
My lawyer contacted me today. She finally heard back from W's lawyer, who requested that we schedule meetings with a mediator as soon as possible. This is a surprise, because W's L had originally asked for us to meet without a mediator. My lawyer asked why W's lawyer had taken so long to respond to her phone calls (it's been over two weeks), and he said he had just been very busy.
My Lawyer suggested that I talk to my wife and see if it was possible for us to meet without the mediator, to save money. I thought it over, conferred with some friends, and then decided to talk with W tonight. We just finished talking. phew.
Initially, W was very hostile, saying "what in the world would we have to talk about!". It turns out she was very angry that we had filed a counter claim, and I hadn't talked it over with her first. I explained how unhappy I was that she was asking for full custody, and I thought that the counterclaim was just standard practice. She wasn't served, and we simply contacted her L. After 5-10 minutes of pretty tense venting by her, covering most of her complaints, with me simply validating, she finally calmed down and asked me to sit down.
We both agreed that 50/50 physical custody would be best for the kids. We agreed the neither of us would likely be able to keep the house. We only seemed to have two points we disagreed upon so far: she wants considerable spousal support, and she seems to want me to keep the pets. The pet thing is a real surprise to me, as they have always been basically her pets. It's almost like she wants to divorce them too (2 cats, 2 dogs). The other sad thing, is that she seems intent on moving to Seattle as soon as S13 graduates high school in four years.
She then got into some serious R talk, basically covering much of my past wrongs, and expressing a lot of resentment at my turnaround over the past four months. She said she is especially mad that I would make a decision like moving back into the master bedroom on my own. I simply said that I thought it was a much less consequential decision to make on my own than her seeking divorce and the destruction of our family. We covered a lot of ground. Basically, I ended the R talk by restating that while I didn't want a divorce, I did not want to be married to a woman that did not want me.
She then broached the subject of accusing me of turning the kids against her. I simply pointed out that I had done what I could to support her relationship with the kids, because it was in their best interest, BUT it had been very difficult because she had been drunk in front of them, had been verbally abusive to them, and screamed at them several times that she didn't want to be a mother any more.
Her silence to this gave me the chance to bring up my specific concerns about her drinking. I don't know if it was wise or not, but I told I had been going to al-anon, not for her but for myself. Again, she seemed to blame her drinking on me, and was frustrated that I had not gone to al-anon many years sooner. sigh. She says she is getting much better, and has the support of her family. I told her I knew she was still drinking, and that the kids had confronted her on valentines day weekend. She admitted it. But the conversation went no farther. I have no say in what she does anyway. If she continues to drink, she will end up loosing custody.
We ended the conversation with an agreement to get the divorce done as soon as we could. The reality of it all is crushing. I told her my biggest regret was how it was affecting our kids, and she said they would be just fine. She knows a lot of divorced people with kids who are wonderful. sigh, she doesn't get it.
Awoken,
The kids will be fine - I have heard the same thing. She's minimizing.
Great job leading. You did the right thing. Tough, but the correct move.
Awoken, that sounds like it went as well as it could have gone.
I don't know if it was wise or not, but I told I had been going to al-anon, not for her but for myself. Again, she seemed to blame her drinking on me, and was frustrated that I had not gone to al-anon many years sooner. sigh.
Good grief. She's got a looooong way to go.
Did the conversation confirm or introduce doubt into your feeling "done" with the M?
Awoken, you seem to be on the right path. Sounds like she's realizing she can't control every aspect of your M anymore. Stand your ground.
Awoken, you seem to be on the right path. Sounds like she's realizing she can't control every aspect of your M anymore. Stand your ground.
I am seeing the same thing in my sitch. Where the WAS has had "control" in the M, they have a hard time accepting they no longer have that control once they file for D and the dynamic in the relationship changes.
Awoken, expect more anger/venom.
I am seeing the same thing in my sitch. Where the WAS has had "control" in the M, they have a hard time accepting they no longer have that control once they file for D and the dynamic in the relationship changes
And a high-five to that!
I am seeing the same thing in my sitch. Where the WAS has had "control" in the M, they have a hard time accepting they no longer have that control once they file for D and the dynamic in the relationship changes
And a high-five to that!
The brutal reality.
Did the conversation confirm or introduce doubt into your feeling "done" with the M?
It's odd to me. During our conversation I felt very done with it all, based on how calm I was. At one point she complained about me "living it up in New York". (If only she knew!) I could only reply that it was a sad weekend for me because I had always wanted to take her to New York with me for valentines day. This is true: we've talked about it in the past. But when I think about it, I realize that even if she had gone with me, she would've likely been resentful, gone to sleep early, and basically avoided me.
And yet, I've always had hope that she would get better, and we would bridge the emotional distance between us. Last night, that is what was on my mind, the reality that we've likely never had a good marriage, and have never done the work we should have done. I guess if I'm still thinking this way, I'm not quite done yet. But, I'm pretty close.
You know at one point, it came up that she has not filled out her financial affidavit yet. She's had it for almost 6 weeks. She then actually asked me to do it for her!?!? WTF? I told her that we should each do our own.
Awoken,
You handled the situation, yourself and your W very strongly. Kudos for that.
She said she is especially mad that I would make a decision like moving back into the master bedroom on my own. I simply said that I thought it was a much less consequential decision to make on my own than her seeking divorce and the destruction of our family.
Good.
She then broached the subject of accusing me of turning the kids against her. I simply pointed out that I had done what I could to support her relationship with the kids, because it was in their best interest, BUT it had been very difficult because she had been drunk in front of them, had been verbally abusive to them, and screamed at them several times that she didn't want to be a mother any more.
good.
Again, she seemed to blame her drinking on me, and was frustrated that I had not gone to al-anon many years sooner. sigh.
Denial
and chutzpah. What a shame. Not a good sign.
You are strong.
Stay strong. Especially now.
Thank you everyone; I'm trying to stay strong. Today was/is a difficult day. I went to my friends funeral, then met with a Realtor to look at possible house I could downgrade into. I have to decide weather I want to try to keep the house I'm in now, or find something much cheaper, but in the same school district. I doubt me or STBXW can afford to keep the house, as much as it will disappoint S13 and D17.
W emailed me today saying that her lawyer wants me to make her an offer. I'm thinking, we just filed a counter-suit, can that be my offer? Of course, I'm waiting to hear from back from my own lawyer. Again, I think STBXW needs to do her own work. It's looking like I'll be the one selling the house, finding us places to live, taking care of the financials, etc. I could choose to do none of it, but it seems like its best to protect myself.
I'm very frustrated and ready to move on. Sometime soon, I'll need to start another thread in surviving the big D.
Again, I think STBXW needs to do her own work.
Agreed. You're handling your side.
Again, I think STBXW needs to do her own work. It's looking like I'll be the one selling the house, finding us places to live, taking care of the financials, etc. I could choose to do none of it, but it seems like its best to protect myself.
Do what you need to do to protect YOURSELF and the kids. "finding US places to live" - how about finding a place for YOURSELF and the kids, let the W worry about what happens to her own living conditions. That's NOT YOUR WORRY. Let her feel the CONSEQUENCES of her actions.
Today was/is a difficult day. I went to my friends funeral
Yes it was difficult, even here. Didn't realize the effect until today...Hang in there. (((Awoken)))
Tonight, I'm very done. My wife is so full of anger, hate, and bitterness for me, and I've learned to return the feelings.
It's likely that we never had a good marriage to save in the first place.
We talked briefly about details of our divorce, mostly agreeing about everything. But she is very angry, and spewed it. I asked her how long it would be until we could get the D done, and it really set her off. I wish I had stayed calm and collected, but I've just had enough. I unloaded. We ended the conversation.
I think the true measure of how done I am, is that I'm only worried if this will make the D negotiations harder. Not how it affects my chances for reconciliation.
2x4 me. I'm very sad about where I am now. Did I let it happen, did I let my feelings reach this point?
Awoken, you don't deserve a 2x4 for being human. By DBing we try to save ourselves and not make things worse...But that doesn't mean that we are DBing robots who always follow a prescribed set of behaviours. It might have been good for your W to feel the full force of your anger. The blast that you gave her shows that you have a limit and she's reached it. hugs.
I agree with flowmom. No need for a 2x4. It's good to let her see your teeth every once in a while. A little growl now and again is ok.
It's likely that we never had a good marriage to save in the first place.
I doubt that. And I doubt you believe it either. This may be where you are now, but that's not likely where you have always been.
Keep looking forward, on your new life. If she wants to come back (and SHE has to WANT to), she knows where to find you.
Hang in there. You're doing fine.
thank you gima/flowmom. I'm feeling very low this morning after a night of no sleep. Really, I'm feeling like the days after the bomb, and its a major step back for me.
I've been doing what I'm supposed to, working on PMA, exercising, being busy with GAL. And yet, I'm feeling worse than I have in weeks. So I'm not sure what's going on.
just arrgggg!
thank you gima/flowmom. I'm feeling very low this morning after a night of no sleep. Really, I'm feeling like the days after the bomb, and its a major step back for me.
I've been doing what I'm supposed to, working on PMA, exercising, being busy with GAL. And yet, I'm feeling worse than I have in weeks. So I'm not sure what's going on.
just arrgggg!
Don't fight it. It's normal. Ebb and flow.
Love yourself enough to allow yourself to experience these feelings. They will pass.
Try to be in your grief and let it all out. See it as an opportunity to let go of your pain so that it doesn't get stored in your body. Try to even be moving while you feel it...like going for a walk as you cry it out. My last big grief outpouring was while I had a run and it was very cathartic. But I know that I have to welcome the grief more often. (((Awoken)))
(((((Awoken)))))
Yes, what gima and flowmom said.
Don't fight it. It's normal. Ebb and flow.
Ha! am I in ebb, or am I in flow? 'cause they both suck!
ok, I need to stop my pity party.
1) I've got two wonderful kids that adore me, and are sticking by me.
2) I've got wonderful friends (both her and in RL) that support me.
3) I have a career that I love; I get to make money doing something I love
4) My family loves me.
5) I've got lots of options. Many others don't!
6) I'm healthy
My new direction in life can go anyway I want. I can choose for myself in the future what I want.
There you go! All @ focusing on the positive. Or, taking the anti-WAS view!
Tonight, W sent me a text saying "call your lawyer, I can be out of the house in two weeks". I sent a very brief reply telling her I've scheduled a meeting with my lawyer for Thursday.
When I got home tonight, she was stomping around the kitchen. She is VERY angry. She said, "you said I never do anything, so now I am!" I guess she means that she is moving out. Since she was so upset, I took the kids out for dinner. Monday's are my night with the kids anyway, and I didn't want things to escalate.
I think a month ago I would've been so scared that her moving out would be the end of my chance to save my marriage. Now, I'm not as much scared, as sad that it's come to this. Of course, I won't be able to monitor her drinking, and I really shouldn't be anymore. I hope this change will do W some good, lead her to whatever she needs. Without her meds, and some way of addressing her drinking problem, I doubt she is going to find happiness.
I just need to keep moving forward.
Hey man. Something I'm learning now - it's all about YOU and what YOU want and deserve. It's ok to be a little selfish right now.
Focus on what YOU can make YOUR life from here forward. What are the things you've wanted to do but couldn't?
Awoken,
When I got home tonight, she was stomping around the kitchen. She is VERY angry. She said, "you said I never do anything, so now I am!" I guess she means that she is moving out. Since she was so upset, I took the kids out for dinner. Monday's are my night with the kids anyway, and I didn't want things to escalate.
Good move.
Awoken, I hope this will be a change that creates some relief for you. Much as I miss H and wish he was living with us, I don't miss the negativity that he was sending my way. It's a lot easier to GAL and find little moments of peace and enjoyment throughout the day when you're not walking on eggshells.
It's a lot easier to GAL and find little moments of peace and enjoyment throughout the day when you're not walking on eggshells.
Oh, yeah. Definitely. Gotta look at the positive side and this is at the top of the list.
W texted me last night saying she is "mad because you want me out of the house". All I did was ask her what her time line was for the divorce, and now she says I'm the one forcing everything. I just told her "I'm sorry things are so tense in the house right now", and then stopped responding. I was playing music with friends anyway.
Tensions in the house have really escalated. I left my briefcase unattended for 30 minutes, and she went through it pulling out all the papers. She tried to put them back undisturbed, but c'mon.
School was canceled for the first couple of hours this morning due to snow, including her school where she teaches. Nonetheless, she got up and left the house bright and early, leaving me with having to cancel work to get the kids to school. It's fine, I enjoyed the extra time with S13.
He's not doing so great. He was very angry this morning about all things in general. I suppose that is normal for a teenager, but I'm sure the sitch makes it worse. He turns 14 this friday, and mom will be out of town doing a tri-athalon. She's never missed a birthday before. Money is tight, and she bought a $1200 bicycle. When she asked the kids to take a picture of her with it, they both thought she had lost her mind.
onwards, right?
These quotes from GIMA's thread have me thinking more:
Your W has what is called masked depression. She seems "normal" but she is not. Inside she is in major trouble.
AND
What would it take to not hate her?
I guess my question is, what if she had cancer? Would you have more compassion for her?
If yes then remember she is sick just change the disease in your mind.
It's clear my W is sick: Bi-polar, Alcoholic, depressed. I took a vow of marriage, for better or for worse. Divorce is a problem for me.
Only way to go is forward.
Hey, SHE's the one who wanted the D. She knows how to stop it if she wants to.
Awoken,
I enjoyed the extra time with S13.He's not doing so great. He was very angry this morning about all things in general. I suppose that is normal for a teenager, but I'm sure the sitch makes it worse.
Did you witness this, surmise it or is he still opening up to you like he did a couple of weeks back?
He turns 14 this friday, and mom will be out of town
That's inexcusable. And adding to his anger this week for sure.
And, yep: Onwards. No alternative.
It's clear my W is sick: Bi-polar, Alcoholic, depressed. I took a vow of marriage, for better or for worse. Divorce is a problem for me.
I think I understand where you are...DONE with it all, but not really believing in or wanting Divorce. But think about this time you'll have once she moves out. That doesn't mean it's over yet. It gives some separation that will make life a little easier and more bearable for all, you, the W as well as the kids. You'll both start to feel what life after D will be like.
It could open some eyes, it could make some differences. There's still time to bust this D, if that's what you really want to do. Maybe being on her own will be enough of a change to get her to see her own problems and get some help. No longer leaning on you and taking account of herself.
Just thoughts....you know I'm no DBer.
These quotes from GIMA's thread have me thinking more:
Your W has what is called masked depression. She seems "normal" but she is not. Inside she is in major trouble.
AND
What would it take to not hate her?
I guess my question is, what if she had cancer? Would you have more compassion for her?
If yes then remember she is sick just change the disease in your mind.
It's clear my W is sick: Bi-polar, Alcoholic, depressed. I took a vow of marriage, for better or for worse. Divorce is a problem for me.
Awoken, I think you do have compassion for your W. Unfortunately, though, mental health problems and addiction destroy the fabric of M, unlike cancer.
It must be so hard to watch your W flake out as a mother. That is the best illustration of the fact that the M is not the issue here. This separation will give you both some space and it may protect the children from some of her toxicity.
Awoken,
It's clear my W is sick: Bi-polar, Alcoholic, depressed. I took a vow of marriage, for better or for worse. Divorce is a problem for me.
Awoken. I completely understand your problem with divorce. I have - had - the same problem.
But any therapist you see, any book you read, any "guru" you listen to to will say up front that if any of the A's are present: Addiction, Adultery, Abuse, that must be taken care of first, then you can try to save marriage, listen to guru's advice, apply book's principals.
I believe that is why so many on these boards dealing with adultery try to bust the affair before busting the divorce (kick to curb, boundaries, exposing it, etc.).
Your A will have to be addressed and eliminated first or you are either going to bust your divorce and wind up hurting yourself and your boys by the alcoholism anyway or not be able to bust your divorce at all.
Just my opinion. I'd defer to anything IC is telling you.
I thought of you as I was enjoying some live jazz tonight. I hope that you're feeling ok...
Hugs to everyone:
(((Gima)))
(((Gardener)))
(((Sister)))
(((Flowmom)))
It's been a long week, and it was good to log in here and read everyone's supportive words. Thank you so much.
This has been a busy week and busier weekend. I haven't really felt much like posting, and I think this is longest I've been away from the forum since my sitch started.
Thursday I met for several hours with my L, and we went over the details of a D offer. After talking over all the details, I realized I still wasn't quite ready to push this forward, and we agreed that I should take the weekend to think it over.
It was a big weekend:
S13 became S14 on friday.
D17 went to her junior prom Saturday night.
My nephew got married Saturday afternoon, and I played music for the reception.
STBXW left friday to drive across state for a triathlon. She was supposed to return on sunday. I handled it all on my own, and had a great time.
Friday night, S13 had two friends over for a sleepover. We did pizza and an ice cream cake. And the boys basically took over the house for most of the night. It was great just listening to them. Me and D17 watched a movie together in my room.
Saturday, the wedding conflicted with D17's schedule, so we arranged for her to get ready for prom with one of her best friends. I took S14! to the wedding with me. He was great, helping me move all the music equipment. Right after the wedding reception, we dashed back across town to D17's picture party, with the other couples that she was going to prom with. Traffic was bad, but we made it in time and I took lots of pictures along with the other parents. Half way through, STBXW showed up still dressed out from her triathlon. She had evidently driven 5 hours straight, right after competing. We finished pictures, and then W disappeared. I had a gig that night, and took S14! with me. He is friends with the two other musicians I performed with, and he had a good time.
The prom couples were due to meet at our home around midnight, where they would hang out for a few hours, and then the boys would leave and the girls would spend the night.
S14! and I got home around 11pm. S14! went to his room, as exhausted as I was. Then...
STBXW came down the stairs and all the trouble started again.
I've spent a good part of the past week thinking hard about my own failures in my marriage. They are big, as are my STBXW's.
On friday night I had planned on collecting some of my favorite pictures of our family and of W. I had pulled out my favorite picture of W from many years ago. I left these in my office. I discovered saturday morning that W had found the pictures and destroyed them all before she left town.
Last night, as STBXW came down the stairs, enraged in a way all too familiar, the death of my marriage became crystal clear. Although I'm sure I will still have doubts.
She was furious because the house had not be adequately cleaned, and she thought that D17 was being selfish by going to prom and not cleaning up the house. We HAD cleaned up the house that morning. She was basically upset about a few empty glasses on the counter and a towel in the living room.
She then launched into another tirade about...everything. I validated, then defended, then I'd had enough. I've already take the blame for so much stuff, some of it rightly so. But she is ill, and in a bi-polar rage. I finally confronted her in a way I never have. I told her that her anger was abusive to me and the kids, and that she needed to deal with her bipolar illness. I was specific, outlining the patterns she follows. She knows this, and has acknowledged it before, but I have never confronted her with it myself. She was first diagnosed bipolar when she was in her teens, then again during the first years of our marriage. Last night she said, "I was diagnosed a long time ago, and I'm don't think I'm really bi-polar."
This morning I emailed my L asking her to complete the paperwork as soon as possible.
Awoken, I'm really glad that you told your STBXW how her illness is affecting you and the children. It was the right thing to do, as a man and as a father.
And how crushing her response was. The denial. I can only hope that some of what you said sank in and that she will deal with her problems eventually, so that your interactions with her can be more peaceful.
It sounds like you were superGALdad this weekend and I am *very* impressed
. Those parenting victories are so important to recognize and celebrate.
(((Awoken)))
Look. Not one of us on this planet can honestly look at their M's and say they were perfect (excepting, obviously, my W!). All kidding aside, repeat after me, there is no perfect M b/c there are no perfect people!!
Look at your faults, and correct what you can. It's all about being a better person. Not a PERFECT person. Own your issues, correct them, then move on.
Your W is looking to blow up at whatever she can find (in her mind). If you were perfect, she'd still be raising he!! With you. B/c it isn't about you. It's about her and her justifying her decision.
Now, the question is whether you will/want to put up with her if she isn't making any attempt to address HER issues. What if she called off the D, but remained the same person she is today (yes, I'm asking myself the same question). Would you be happy? Of course not.
So do that soul searching about whether you grieve the loss of the M you enjoyed or the M you have TODAY.
Awoken.
Your loving relationship with your children is a blessing beyond measure and an absolute joy to read about and follow along with..
Awoken. Good for you for addressing it in no uncertain terms and letting it fly.
flowmom mentioned denial in, as I inferred it, its classic meaning of doesn't have a clue, doesn't want to face, admit, etc.
My take on denial has always been different. Denial isn't an unknowing fog one is powerlessly trapped in. One can only deny - to others -what one
already knows to be true.
This morning I emailed my L asking her to complete the paperwork as soon as possible.
Sorry buddy, but perhaps ultimately inevitable and for the best in the long run, especially for those darling kids and the dad they so obviously love.
Prepare: it's going to get bumpy and ugly.
Endure. Maintain your integrity.
flowmom mentioned denial in, as I inferred it, its classic meaning of doesn't have a clue, doesn't want to face, admit, etc.
My take on denial has always been different. Denial isn't an unknowing fog one is powerlessly trapped in. One can only deny - to others -what one already knows to be true.
That is a very good point Gardener.
...those darling kids and the dad they so obviously love.
Yes, they are a blessing beyond measure.
Saturday, at my nephew's wedding, S14! sat next to me as we watched the ceremony. Of course it affected me, but I was in a good mood and happy for my nephew. As the ceremony progressed, my thoughts were sad, but I kept them very quiet in my head and my sadness was only a shadow to the joy of the event. Somehow, at the just the right moment S14! reaches over and grabs my tightly, giving me the three squeeze "I love you" that we shared for years when he was much younger. It's was an unusually direct display of love and empathy for him, the teenage boy. We held hand through most of the ceremony.
I truly am blessed.
repeat after me, there is no perfect M b/c there are no perfect people!!
There is no perfect M, because there are no perfect people!!
Got it. It's a great point, gima. I spent the first month or so of my sitch taking all the blame on myself. Lately my W's problems have been so ... well pronounced, that I worry that I've focused too much on them. I do need to protect the family.
One of my good friends, one that calls several times a week just to see how I'm doing, mentioned to me Friday that he thought I talked about W too much, and that it takes two to make a marriage fail. It hurt hearing him say that, but I realized that I had been venting too much to him, and he didn't know my inner turmoil and grief over my failures.
I need to spend more time on ME, GAL, etc. Less on W and the divorce.
Awoken, I'm really glad that you told your STBXW how her illness is affecting you and the children. It was the right thing to do, as a man and as a father.
And how crushing her response was. The denial. I can only hope that some of what you said sank in and that she will deal with her problems eventually, so that your interactions with her can be more peaceful.
Yes, I'm glad I told her too.
Surprisingly, yesterday morning she was very friendly and chatty. She told me all about her triathlon. Even with all my experience with her, I was still startled by the change of mood.
What Gardener said is accurate with regards to W. She KNOWS she is bi-polar, as we have talked about it many times during our marriage. She is very sensitive about it, and this is the first time I've directly criticized her over it. In the past, I thought support was the best approach.
Her denial Saturday night was empty, and I think her new attitude reflects her knowing. Still, it makes no difference without her getting treatment.
I need to spend more time on ME, GAL, etc. Less on W and the divorce.
Yes.
Still, it makes no difference without her getting treatment.
The chatty/cheerful mood is just as toxic as the bad stuff because it messes with your head. I hope that more distance will feel better for you Awoken.
The chatty/cheerful mood is just as toxic as the bad stuff because it messes with your head. I hope that more distance will feel better for you Awoken.
Right on there. Just enough to keep the LBS interested.
Awoken, Wow, that's great. And is
this:
the three squeeze "I love you" that we shared for years when he was much younger
universal? I used to always do this, too.
And, hey, a fourteen year old boy -
at that age - holding his
father's hand and
in front of all those people and f
or that long. is very exceptional at that pull-away-act-cool-no-affection age.
Says a lot about you two. Mostly you.
The chatty/cheerful mood is just as toxic as the bad stuff because it messes with your head. I hope that more distance will feel better for you Awoken.
Right on there. Just enough to keep the LBS interested.
Thanks you two! Oddly, and really sadly, it's not giving me any hope. I'm just ready to move on. I feel like a very poor db'er. I know many here have hung on for so much longer than I have.
I'm both grieving the end of my M, and feeling optimistic about my future. It's a strange mix.
Of course, give me a few days and I may bounce right back to where I was weeks ago.
universal? I used to always do this, too.
Shucks, if you were here with me Gardener, I'd squeeze your hand three times too!
I hope you are well.
I'm both grieving the end of my M, and feeling optimistic about my future. It's a strange mix.
And VERY normal.
It's a big future out there, isn't it?
I thought I had figured out a way to afford to keep the house. I got a note in the mail for our mortgage lender today. Evidently we have underpaid our taxes this past year, and they now need to raise our monthly payment significantly to cover the difference. The timing is terrible, since I don't see W agreeing to share the difference, even though it's taxes for the past year that we are missing.
Maybe I'm just being to optimistic that she'll accept the offer we've talked about anyway. She may change her mind about everything.
So make a back-up plan. I think she's on the hook for half the taxes but speak to you L.
Hang in there buddy. You can't control what she does.
I hope that you won't have to make decisions about the home Awoken. You've got enough on your plate. hugs.
Poking in on your thread, Awoken.
Quite the emotional upsy-downsy weekend of events. I don't know how you held it together through all that!
Then mix of emotions sounds quite hard. I guess it would be easier if STBXW were always in her angry moods, right? cheerful and chatty as you are just about to be DONE is hard to bear.
Your kids sound terrific, and you have a wonderful R with them.
Step by step, I guess, right? Each day.
Hey, thanks Avermont.
I am lucky that my relationship with my kids is so strong. It creates some unusual jealousy in STBXW. She is convinced that I'm setting the kids against her, and I'm doing my best not to.
At this point, I don't know what to do with a weekend with out the roller coaster. It's almost more depressing, since it leaves me alone with my thoughts. However, as you said step by step!
My daughter and I share a story about a King (Solomon?) having a ring engraved with the saying "This too shall pass", which he kept/wore for perspective in both good and bad times. I told it to her once when she was a preteen and having a tough time at school. She has started reminding me both in her own troubles, and in the family's troubles: "this too shall pass".
The problem about the back taxes is that the mortgage company will only handle it by increasing the monthly payment. That requirement is buried in the paperwork.
It was a small blow, because I had just worked out all my stuff so that I could barely afford to stay in the house. The extra payment makes things tough. We haven't been reappraised since the renovation either, and I also expect the property taxes to increase as well. Honestly, I may be better off selling anyway, but the kids don't want to lose their home.
Any chance of renting out a room to defray mortgage costs? I know that keeping my home will be very tough, but I'm hoping that I'll be able to pull it off for the children.
Awoken,
At this point, I don't know what to do with a weekend with out the roller coaster. It's almost more depressing, since it leaves me alone with my thoughts. However, as you said step by step!
Make plans, anything, stay busy.
My daughter and I share a story about a King (Solomon?) having a ring engraved with the saying "This too shall pass", which he kept/wore for perspective in both good and bad times. I told it to her once when she was a preteen and having a tough time at school. She has started reminding me both in her own troubles, and in the family's troubles: "this too shall pass".
Amen, brother.
And a wise little girl you've got there, Dad.
And a wise little girl you've got there, Dad.
I think so too; thanks g!
It's one of the only positives of these sitches, the way the turmoil can bring parents and children closer. At the risk of talking too much about my kids, I'll tell you more about how lucky I am.
Last night I took D17 out to get some chocolate (she said she NEEDED it!). When we got back we sat in the car in the driveway and talked for over an hour. She told the the kind of stuff I think daughters seldom tell parents. She regrets losing her virginity so young; she rushed into the relationship with this college boy because she did'nt want to be alone; she worries that she allows her boyfriend to distract her from her girl friends, and more.
I couldn't be more thankful, and I told her so.
Later that night, alone with my thoughts, I realized that the times me and my W had shared that level of communication had been very rare, maybe never. Of course, it's very different between a parent and a child. I'm so proud of my kids, and I know that my W has been a big contributor in who they are. Our marriage is failing, but we have both raised some wonderful kids. I just wish I had been able to give my W the sense of safety and comfort for her to talk to me the same way my own daughter does. Of course, it takes two!
I'm so so sorry for all you've been through. I'm feel too inexperienced here to offer any advice, but I thought I'd share this, if that's ok. This comment doesn't even have anything to do with DB-ing; so I hope you'll bear with me? Please forgive if this is out of place or too personal.
Here goes. I don't know if you have any idea of the positive effect your love and communication will have on your children as they become adults. I know you say you're lucky to have them, but I don't know if you realize how lucky they are to have you.
One of the things I haven't discussed on my post, is that my mother, although not bipolar, has 'borderline tendencies'. From my research borderline personality disorder is similar to bipolar but a lot less extreme. (Please though, I don't know anything about bipolar so I sure don't want to disrespect your situation by comparing if they're nothing alike). I think it has a similar effect on the family though - they essentially spend their lives walking on eggshells, right? I grew up constantly frightened for the next blowup when I'd have to hold mom's hand through terrible crying spells, or cope with the anger and blame for her problems, listening to her unending problems, begging her to see a psych, feeling responsible for fixing her personal and marriage problems. Sorry, please, I'm not trying to hijack your thread, just wanted to explain my frame of reference.
It was tough, but I think I could have coped way better, if there would have been someone there to hear me. I couldn't ever work through my problems or emotions because there was just no-one to help me understand them. Heaven forbid I'd talk to mom about anything, and Dad was emotionally and physically absent too.
So your descriptions throughout your story of your concern and presence in your childrens' lives (particularly this last moment for the 'chocolate run', and the story of your son squeezing your fingers!) is such a wonderful gift to them. Being there for them, listening to them - to all their problems, allowing them to feel and share, or even just experience their emotions is going to allow them to grow into balanced, happy, wonderful adults.
I hope you realize and feel proud of what a good dad and role model you are - they're very, very lucky to have you.
And finally, sorry, I do hope I haven't gotten too personal? I'm still pretty scared to comment on anyone else's sitch, but I wanted you to know what a good job I thought you're doing. Way to go.
So your descriptions throughout your story of your concern and presence in your childrens' lives (particularly this last moment for the 'chocolate run', and the story of your son squeezing your fingers!) is such a wonderful gift to them. Being there for them, listening to them - to all their problems, allowing them to feel and share, or even just experience their emotions is going to allow them to grow into balanced, happy, wonderful adults.
I hope you realize and feel proud of what a good dad and role model you are - they're very, very lucky to have you.
Hear! Hear! Prairiegirl's got your great dad number, too.
I'm still pretty scared to comment on anyone else's sitch,
Don't be. Say what you think. Respond to what you hear, really hear (like you did here). And if you don't know what to advise, an "Attaboy/Attagirl" is enough to really lift a fellow DBer's spirits, and ususlly when he/she needs it the most. So, with the above as an example of what you have to offer, I say, "speak up, girl!"
Thanks PrairieGirl for such a great post; I read it several times, and it means a lot to me what you shared.
I hope you'll bear with me? Please forgive if this is out of place or too personal.
At this point I've posted my most personal stuff here, and your personal experience is really meaningful.
From my research borderline personality disorder is similar to bipolar but a lot less extreme.
I think borderline and bi-polars are two facets of a similar disorder, and they are often hard to diagnose. The extremeness of it varies with the individual, more so than with the disorder.
One of the things I haven't discussed on my post, is that my mother, although not bipolar, has 'borderline tendencies'. I think it has a similar effect on the family though - they essentially spend their lives walking on eggshells, right? I grew up constantly frightened for the next blowup when I'd have to hold mom's hand through terrible crying spells, or cope with the anger and blame for her problems, listening to her unending problems, begging her to see a psych, feeling responsible for fixing her personal and marriage problems.
wow. it's like you are speaking for me and my kids. somehow, this helps me a lot.
Heaven forbid I'd talk to mom about anything, and Dad was emotionally and physically absent too.
Oh, that sounds tough PG. It's often been hard on me, and I worry that I've been absent at times as well. That's certainly part of my fault in my M. I've gotten so tired. Tired of the rejection, of the emotional distance, of taking care of W. I know I've checked out many times. I didn't know, I didn't know how it was affecting my wife. It's hard because she couldn't or wouldn't communicate about any of it. I suppose that her extreme range of emotions and thoughts made it difficult for her to trust herself, or me.
I hope you realize and feel proud of what a good dad and role model you are - they're very, very lucky to have you.
Well the affirmations here are very good for me the hear, because I'm not feeling like such a great father lately. I wish I had paid more attention to my W, I wish my kids weren't going through this divorce.
I do mostly feel like a good dad. I have my bad days, but I'm here for them and both D17 and S14 know they can rely on me.
I'm so glad you posted. It took a long time for me to start posting on others threads, because I simply didn't feel qualified to say anything. But every post from someone here means so much to me. Thank you.
There not a lot to update about.
My lawyer contacted me today, and we went over the divorce agreement/offer. My W's lawyer should receive it tomorrow.
If W and her lawyer agree to everything, I think my W will move out very soon. She has become a complete stranger to me, and I have no idea if she will agree with the offer, even though it's exactly what we discussed.
This weekend, W is traveling to Denver to "visit her aunt and uncle". It's certainly possible that is what she is doing, but its just as likely she is meeting some man out there. At the start of my sitch, when she was involved in an EA, I found an article she had ripped out of some women's magazine about "having great sex on a weekend getaway". I had forgotten about that until this week. Oddly, months ago I would've been in a panic about her departure this weekend and obsessing about who she was going to see. Now, quite sadly, I'm looking forward to having the house and kids to myself.
Oh, the jealousy is still there in the back of my mind. But it's surprising how faint it has become.
Awoken, it's sobering to see what you've had to adapt to, not only as a husband dealing with your W's problems, but also in your sitch since the bomb.
Gardener shared a book with me that I'm starting to read. It's hard to read. But it does deal with how being abandoned affects us and how we bring that - or not - into our future:
http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Abandonment-Healing-Relationship-Beginning/dp/0425172287hugs to you.
(((Awoken)))
I'll be thinking about you today.
Hugs from me too...
It's an awful feeling living with a stranger. I even changed my H name on my cell phone to "stranger." I don't think he's noticed yet but that's him.
It's good that you're going to have some time with the kids in peace. I know how that is too.
Take care Awoken...
Luv
I'm truly glad what I said helped. Please, please don't beat yourself up for 'checking out' from time to time from your wife. That's a terrible illness, and sometimes the only thing family members can do is to get some distance. Personally, I think you intuitively knew that you had to sometimes so you could regain some strength again for your yourself and your kids.
I think family members end up feeling responsible for their ill loved one's emotional state; at least that's how I felt. It's so draining because you have to be so hyper-vigilant, right? Trying to always be ready to jump in at a moment's notice to reassure, listen, provide care? And with kids, it must have been even tougher. You've likely often taken on the lions' share of day-to-day care to help protect them; and to work extra hard to ensure they don't feel responsible or blamed. But look at how well your kids interact - your efforts have obviously made a difference.
The whole thing physically and mentally taxes your system to the breaking point, because you're always running on adrenalin, ready to quickly take action. I know, I SO hear you that you didn't know how it (i'm assuming you meant your 'distant' times?) was affecting your wife. Again, I think some distance is your body and mind's intuitive attempt to restore yourself and regain balance - families SO underestimate the stress they're under to manage situations like this. So please, you have to forgive yourself. You're likely exhausted, drained and heartbroken, and you're doing your very best in a very difficult situation.
Hugs from me! Take care of yourself, and keep posting,
PrairieGirl
Thanks PG (sister and flowmom too).
so much of what you said is very true.
Still, I know that my W's bipolar does not define my marriage. A large part of the failure in my marriage has been my responsibility. It would be very easy for me to blame it all on her bipolar and her self-medicating with alcohol. But it wouldn't be honest.
One important part of DBing (I think) is to come to terms with your own contributions to the failure of the M, and to improve yourself. In the long run, you don't want to repeat your mistakes. We've been married for 16 years, and at some point I must have just given up trying to connect with her. It's been a pretty painful "awakening" to realize how much denial I've been in about my situation, and how much I've contributed to it.
I found your own self-examination in our own thread to be very moving; I so wish I had been able to do that BEFORE my M reached the state it is now. Of course, things may have still gone the way they have.
Sorry for overstepping Awoken, of course you're right; sorry it's been such a painful road for you. Keep posting and take care this week.
Hey PG! You didn't over step at all!
I'm just trying to keep it all in perspective; I do so appreciate your words of support. I wish I had said it all better; really I just think your own self awareness is something to be thankful for.
Just need to vent!
S14! today had a panic attack and walked out of a school assembly, right out the back door, straight home. I was there teaching music lessons. He went straight to D17's room, and she came and got me. I canceled the rest of my schedule. I'm glad he came straight home, but I'm so distressed that he felt like he just couldn't handle things anymore.
He says that when he wakes up he just feels like he doesn't want to do anything, doesn't want to talk to anyone, and the stress is driving him crazy. He calmed down pretty soon.
I know some of this could be normal 14 year old stuff, but I'm sure it's the stress of the break up of our family. And I'm so angry at my W for doing this to us, and I'm so angry at myself for letting this happen to us.
I was calm, and reminded him that no matter what things were gonna be ok. I was very proud of D17. We did finally convince him to go talk to someone, because D17 said they would go together.
It's heartbreaking. I feel like there is little I can do to protect him from this suffering.
Hi Awoken,
Sorry to hear about your day. Good for you for staying calm and talking it through; I bet that helped him a lot.
Awoken,
He says that when he wakes up he just feels like he doesn't want to do anything, doesn't want to talk to anyone, and the stress is driving him crazy. He calmed down pretty soon.
I know some of this could be normal 14 year old stuff
No, this appears to be a bit beyond 14 year-old angst and acting out. He's in pain, of course.And these are symptoms of depression, Awoken.
I was calm, and reminded him that no matter what things were gonna be ok. I was very proud of D17. We did finally convince him to go talk to someone, because D17 said they would go together.
You and D did very well. How lucky for him you were both there. Who are they going to talk to?
It's heartbreaking. I feel like there is little I can do to protect him from this suffering.
Unfortunately there is little else you can do other being the good, empathetic Dad you are. He's probably too young - and it's too soon in the sitch - to tell him that
Suffering is the result of Pain that we
don't accept.
Keep doing what you're doing. You're doing very well. You just can't make it not hurt them, as much as you'd like to.
S14! is SO lucky to have you and D17 there for him. I'm really glad to hear he is willing to talk to someone. Is there someone already in place for him that knows the situation? Has D17 already been to see a C? It's such a good thing that S14! and D17 have a close enough relationship that they can lean on each other.
((Awoken)) I know how much this must hurt to see your son in this place. You are being really strong and that will make a difference to him down the road. Be glad for the Dad you can be now - you can't change the past - you can only make the future a better one for you and your kids.
Remember the discussion with PG and the way your kids have had to deal with the family up till now. They may be in a hard place now, but they've had to live with some hard times in the past as well. Just continue to be the great Dad that you are. Your strength will help them.
<3 HUGS!!!
(((Awoken)))
My heart breaks for you and all of us who are watching our children suffer
Discovered this song today and wanted to share...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STRONGER THAN YOU THINK by rené marie
Broken wings let me hold you close and calm your furious beating
Timid heart, please speak to me and tell the secrets that you hide
Empty hands, open up and hold on to what's worth keeping
Soul that's lost I've got some hope to take the place of all that pride
In your eyes I can see a strength that's deep and growing
On your face is a story waiting to be told
In your mind is the source of everything worth knowing
And a spirit that will never grow old
CHORUS
And the waves you're on are gonna rise and fall
You got a lot to learn but you're never gonna know it all
Don't hide them, be proud of your battle scars
You're stronger than you think you are
Shame is an admission to ourselves of our potential
Loneliness ain't nothin' but the stranger that's inside
Emptiness just means we're not aware of our own credentials
Battle scars mean that we've survived
Once you learn that happiness is not a competition
Once you see that what you need was with you all along
Once you know that courage is another word for intuition
Then your fears will disappear and your heart will burst out in song
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi Awoken,
Just checking in to see how you're doing.
Awoken AND Sister;
Just checking in to say hi to Awoken, see how you're doing and saw this post by sister. Thank you, Sister. I was fortunate to get to meet Awoken and ejoy his talent at a NYC rene marie gig in,...January? Anyway, there were three CDs for sale ndI bought the one that had a song on it from the show that blew me away. I don't think it was "Stronger Than You Think", but can't remember now what it was.
But what great lyrics. I can't believe I haven't cracked the CD open yet after all these weeks, (Sorry, Awoken), but I will tonight.
Hope you are good, Awoken.
Thanks, again, Sister.
Thanks PG and Gardener,
I've been feeling down this past week, and especially this weekend. It's still an improvement over the desperate panic of my first few months (I can't believe it's been almost 5 months).
I used to post every day. not much to add I suppose.
Right now STBXW is out of town somewhere. She says she is visiting her aunt across country. 2 months ago, I would've checked to find out who she was meeting. Now, sadly I don't care.
D17 told me friday afternoon that W got really angry thursday night because S14! told her that I took them to see a possible house for me to move to.
I don't understand STBXW at all anymore. When we told the kids about D, they asked about the house and we told them we might have to sell it. I've been shopping for houses to see what I could afford if I have to sell the house, or I have to move out. I know it will be a blow to the kids if we sell their home for the past 6 years.
Again, unlike previous months, I'm not really worried about what STBXW thinks about this.
She gets back late tonight, so the circus will start again.
Hey Awoken! Good morning! So glad to see you back posting again - I think everyone here has been very concerned about you! Sorry you've had such a rough week.
Again, unlike previous months, I'm not really worried about what STBXW thinks about this.
Good for you for saying that! It's actually interestingly similar to something my psych told me at my appt with her on Friday. It was about the importance of getting to a place where you're not worrying about how your spouse is going to think and react to what you say, and tailoring what you do and say to that. Instead, she said to just look inside yourself to decide what you need to say, share and do, and go ahead and do it. That's the best way to respect and care for yourself. Don't know if that helps at all! But just thought I'd share it. Again, glad to see you back and I do hope the next few days will be better ones for you!
I think that during the last four weeks, and my wife and I have only had one conversation. I don't think we've even spoken a hello to each other in the past two weeks. Even the emails and text messages over bills and kids schedules have dwindled to the bare minimum.
At times my anger has faded, and I find myself missing her a lot. But then I think about the past 16 years, and the damage of the past four+ months.
Where are we right now? Almost two weeks ago, My lawyer and I submitted a proposal for D settlement. We have yet to hear back from my wife's lawyer. My wife hasn't said anything about it. Nonetheless, I have not reason to think she is having second thoughts. As far as I can tell, my actions over the past four months have confirmed her reasons for wanting a divorce, or she was already set on a divorce anyway. Other than living in the same house, we basically feel divorced already.
Next week, I'm performing out of town for three days, then my wife takes the kids across country to visit her family for spring break. They will be gone for seven days. It will be my first true taste of what my future is gonna be like.
But what great lyrics. I can't believe I haven't cracked the CD open yet after all these weeks, (Sorry, Awoken), but I will tonight.
Hope you are good, Awoken.
Thanks, again, Sister.
Time for new music and triggers, eh Gardner?
Other than living in the same house, we basically feel divorced already.
Next week, I'm performing out of town for three days, then my wife takes the kids across country to visit her family for spring break. They will be gone for seven days. It will be my first true taste of what my future is gonna be like.
Hang in there, Awoken. Hugs.
I hope that going out of town will be a good distraction for you. (((Awoken))) It can't be easy living that way.
Sister,
Time for new music and triggers, eh Gardner?
Oh, God, yeah. ipod's been thoroughly purged. And the Rene Marie cd is great.
Just checking in. Hope things are looking up. Wondering how S14! is holding up these days.
Hi Awoken,
Just checking in to see how you're doing, how your weekend went.
Thanks everyone; I've been taking a break from the forums. Nothing really new to report, just more of the same. It's like a broken record.
I'm still very worried about S14!
I pretty much hate HMO insurance; I've called 18 different male therapists covered by our HMO. Only two have returned the messages, and only to say that their earliest appointments for S14! will be in May.
Friday night I dropped him off at his school to watch his best friend in a school play. I was supposed to pick him up at 10pm. When I showed up to get him, he was gone. 15 minutes later he sent me a message saying he had gone to a restaurant with friends. I called W to make sure she was on board, and went to pick him up and set some boundaries about how this wasn't acceptable. He was pretty apologetic and surprised that I showed up.
Footnote, W was smashed drunk at our neighbors house and not really able to participate in the discussion. Her main concern was to express how angry she is that both kids don't spend enough time with her. She leaves town all the time, spends the night out, and basically avoids them most of the time. She wanted to confront the kids about this right then. I told her that I wasn't willing to talk with her when she was drunk. She stormed home, told me "you always get your way!", and slammed her door.
She is taking them to her parents for spring break, leaving this saturday. They will be gone for 7 days.
Awoken, can you ask the school counselors to see if there are any free teen hotlines to call? You know, free telephone counseling?
As to W- drama, oh yes, all about her, isn't it? Not thinking at all about the kids here.
I hope your lawyer will be notified of her drunken behavior.
I hope things go ok during the spring break.
Hugs,
June
Sorry buddy. That has to be hard to put up with your W acting that way. Hang in there. The kids (if they haven't already) will figure it out.
Ok, 7 days without the kids is a bummer but its also 7 days away from her. What do you have planned?
Awoken, I hope things will feel more peaceful with her away for seven days.
Sorry to hear about the problems getting help for your S...
Good for you for taking time away from the forum