Boundaries let people know where they stop and you start. Boundaries let others know how they can treat you, if you can't show someone that you love and respect yourself then it's hard for them to do so. Boundaries are for yourself and are needed in a healthy, loving relationship. You won't get the love you need without communicating and enforcing your boundaries. Boundaries are not controlling, manipulative, or blaming. Setting a boundary is not making a threat - it is communicating clearly what the consequences will be if the other person continues to treat us in an unacceptable manner. It is a consequence of the other persons behavior.
When you make a boundary you are choosing for yourself how you let others treat you. When you make a choice you empower yourself. I have decided this is how I will be treated and I am responsible to myself, I am not a victim because I have a choice in my life.
How to set and enforce boundaries:
Setting:
When you . . . . .
I feel . . . . .
I want . .
Enforcing:
If you - a description of the behavior we find unacceptable (again being as descriptive as possible.)
I will - a description of what action you will take to protect and take care of your self in the event the other person violates the boundary.
If you continue this behavior - a description of what steps you will take to protect the boundary that you have set.
Example:
When I ask you what is wrong and you say "Never mind," and then slam cabinet doors and rattle pots and pans and generally seem to be silently raging about something,
I feel angry, frustrated, irritated, hopeless, as if you are unwilling to communicate with me, as if I am supposed to read your mind.
I want you to communicate with me and help me to understand if I have done something that upsets you.
If something is bothering you and you will not tell me what it is, I will confront you about your behavior and share my feelings.
If you continue that behavior, I will confront your behavior, share my feelings, and insist that we go to counseling together.
If you keep repeating this behavior I will start considering all of my options, including leaving this relationship.
Boundaries work for all parties involved. Try them out they help you handle it.
Thoughts, resources, examples .........
Cheers
Coach
GREAT idea for a topic, Coach!
This is how I explain it to folks (this example was to a male betrayed spouse):
The best way I can answer is that if you make it about HER, they will come across as "demands" and being "controlling."
If you make them about YOU, and what YOU need, then they are "boundaries of personal integrity."
Example:
"I forbid you to see OM" = CONTROLLING
"I can't live in an open marriage" = BOUNDARY
"You need to check in with me every day, and give me your cellphone bill!" = CONTROLLING
"In order to feel safe in our reconciliation, considering your recent affair, I need to know that you're no longer talking or texting him by having the cellphone bill come to me for awhile" = BOUNDARY
"You can't talk to me that way!" = CONTROLLING
"I like ME too much to allow myself to be spoken to so disrespectfully. Please come back when you've calmed down, and we can talk further." = BOUNDARY
Make sense?
It's also HOW you say it. It should come across as something you HATE to have to even ASK for, and that you'll COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND if she doesn't feel she can do it, but hey -- this is what I need right now. Let me know."
Puppy
Coach,
Thanks for starting the thread. It's Spine Time!
JJ
This is a great topic and one that deserves a lot of thought.
This is a great topic and one that deserves a lot of thought.
I hope you are thinking and praying about things. Is being treated like a "roommate" how you want to continue on? Let go of the outcome and your thinking will clear up. What does Puppy say, "Am I worried about upsetting her or doing the right thing like Jesus himself was standing besides me?" Act from a position of love not fear. Lead your family, it will pay off. You can handle it.
Cheers
Oh God! I really love this topic. Been thinking of seeing an IC concerning my mother and her absolute refusal to respect boundaries.
She is really not well, mentally, I'd like to keep a relationship with her and our children but...
I now let her know that if she decides to clean our house or rearrange things she has to leave. She still flips out though. I'm "too controlling" "she is only being helpful" "why am I behaving badly" "it was such a small thing why make a big deal", etc. She cries, lies, pitches a fit and then acts as if I am the jerk.
I let her know as soon as she would like to visit that no cleaning or rearranging is allowed in my house- she is only there it visit the grandkids. I will leave some clean clothes out to fold and that is the only thing she is allowed to do. She still gets nutty and proclaims that she is not here to play with the grandkids but to clean so I then have to ask her to politely leave. Which she refuses- it can get ugly.
I really don't know how to handle her anymore. It get's bad- she frequently tries to override my decisions with the kids too. Let take the kids to Chuck E. Cheese today. "No, mom they went last week we are not going there". Then goes to the kids a few minutes later- "How about Chuck E. Cheese?" How the heck can you deal with a person who behaves in that manner.
Total hijack, sorry. But I really could use some insight. Promise I will not turn this thread into my thread. Just needing pointers.
A few examples from my life:
Family is at S10 soccer game. I am standing near inlaws. MsR2C walks up stands between us, then says "Could you please stand somewhere else". I pause, think, then say "You chose to come stand by me, you can chose to go somewhere else" and continued watching the game.
Exchange time is 7:30 for Tuesday diner visits. Txt from MsR2C: "Since the kids don't have school tomorrow, I will be dropping them off at 8p". I think about this. Changes are to be negotiated and not dictated as far in advance as possible. My reply "8p is too late, I expect them home at 7:30". Kids also had school, so not sure what she was thinking.
Orangedog made a recommendation to Thinker about this woman and her writings. I found this on her website about boundaries. Pema Chodron -
http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/index.php Let me address this question of: What's the difference between dissolving the barriers and setting good boundaries?
This came up in some of the discussion groups, and this question also comes up —you won't be surprised— in many of the places where I do this teaching. I've given this some thought —and I've heard a lot of other people's views on this too, so I've been educated by other people's thinking on this. Currently, this is my answer, and I'm sure it's a work in process.
I feel that setting boundaries, good boundaries —the intention of that— is to allow for communication to happen. And, barriers are shutting down communication.
To set good boundaries takes a lot of courage. And you have to be going through this process of acknowledging your pain, and also what triggers you, and acknowledging how much you can handle and how much you can't handle. Theres already a lot of courage that's gone on in coming to the place of setting boundaries. But, the intention is to make communication clearer.
For instance, the classic situaton of you're in a relationship where you're beaten. And, all your friends are saying, "Why do you stay in that relationship?" Well, it's because of barriers, and turning away, and all of this stuff. Because, why do you to allow this to happen to yourself again and again? Well, it's very complicated, and it has to do with the ego structure and how we are afraid to actually to go into this, and we're hoping that this time the happiness that I'm seeking will come from staying in this destructive relationship.
A barrier is this turning away and staying stuck. There's ignorance involved in barriers. Maybe that's one of the main ingredients of the ego and the self-centeredness, or the barriers, cocoon— however you say it— is ignorance: not really looking at what's going on. So, then, usually with a lot of help from other people, and your own reservoir of courage beginning to come up, and your own reservoir of clarity and sanity and self-compassion getting stronger, you get to the place where you actually say: If you hit me again, I'm leaving, and I'm leaving for good, and I'm not coming back unless you do some work with a therapist, or whatever, around the fact that you keep hitting me. But, from my side, I'm out of here. And then you do it. That's an example of setting good boundaries. But it takes a lot of courage to do that, because that may mean the end of this relationship, which represents a lot of things.
Setting good boundaries is actually pushing you more and more towards going into it. And it's clarifying the situation. It is the most compassionate thing you can do for the other person and for yourself, because it's frightening because the other person is often not going to want to hear— your boss, your spouse, your child, or whoever it is, is not going to want to hear your boundaries, and they're going to get angry with you.
If you've ever been on the receiving end of someone setting their boundaries, and it provokes you and makes you angry, but at least you know what you're working with. And you can even say, This doesn't work for me, I have to go —or you decide to stay and work with it. But, at least, there's clarity.
Whereas, with barriers, and the whole way ego works, it just causes a lot of confusion —mixed messages are a sign of barriers— and so the suffering just escalates with barriers.
The idea of setting good boundaries is to provide clarity, communication, and it takes a lot of bravery to do it.
Hi Coach,
I am terrible at setting boundaries! Could you let me know what you think of this?
To my h -
When you express an interest in meeting up with me and then not let me know what is happening or leave it to the very last minute it makes me feel like you are messing me and my time around. If we cannot make firm plans in a repectful time period then I don't see that we can continue to meet up. It would make me sad to do this but I don't see another option, my time is precious.My h suggests meeting up and then messes me around or leaves it till the very last minute to arrange anything, sometimes not even suggesting a day. Up until now I have just let it go or just said no as I can't face the hassle. We're supposed to be meeting tomorrow. He suggested, I said I was free, asked what he fancied doing and then nothing more... now I feel he either steps up or shuts up and I don't know how to communicate that.
Thanks
When you express an interest in meeting up with me and then not let me know what is happening or leave it to the very last minute to make plans.
it makes me I feel like you are messing me and my time around. disrespected (or use what feeling best decribes how you feel.)
(Don't use the word you, takes on the connotation you are blaming him, this is all about behavior.)
I want to know when and where we are going to meet in a timely manner, 48 hrs notice.
If we cannot make firm plans in a repectful time period then I don't see that we can continue to meet up.
If you continue to disrespect my time then I will decline all further invitations.
It would make me sad to do this but I don't see another option, my time is precious.
Have you ever watched the Dog Whisperer? Very effective especially when dealing with men.
Thanks Coach, that is a lot clearer to me. I haven't seen it, perhaps it hasn't come over to the UK. I'll look it up on You Tube. In your opinion do you think my position would be stronger tomorrow if I agree to meet or decline saying I am now busy?
Ok then think Victoria Stilwell in place of the Dog Whisperer.
You can meet but make part of your agenda establishing the boundary.
Ah yes, I know her! Thanks Coach, I appreciate your help with this one. I'm learning...
I feel it is important to make a point in the fewest words possible. I would avoid all or nothing statements.
When you wait to the very last minute to request or break appointments with me, I feel disrespected. From now on, I require 48 hours advance notice to schedule an appointment. If you continue to disrespect my time, I will decline further invitations.
Yes, much more succinct.
As it turns out he didn't contact me at all to firm up arrangements, even though it was his suggestion to meet. I am not surprised by this (as I also said no to him regarding an issue for the very first time this week) but now I'm wondering whether to call him on this or whether to leave it, as it is so discourteous (to put it politely!). My quandary is when is it a boundary and when is it a telling off?
My quandary is when is it a boundary and when is it a telling off?
great lesson I learned here - If something is bothering you then it is your responsibility to bring it up.
Boundary is just stating what behavior is unacceptable to you. Until you make your position known then how could someone else know it. This helps avoid the frustration (telling off) and clarify things.
Cheers
great lesson I learned here - If something is bothering you then it is your responsiblity to bring it up.
I am going to put that on a post it an stick it to my fridge!
If I post something on my thread a little later Coach, would you be able to cast an eye over it? I will think about the wording on my way home.
The person in distress has the obligation to bring it to the others attention in a non-threatening way.
Here is my latest boundary:
When you expect me to be flexible with parenting time while you remain rigid, I feel disrespected. I will continue to follow YOUR lead. You can continue to be rigid, or you can chose to do what is best for our kids and be flexibe.
Current discussions involves S8 requesting to spend a night at my house during HER parenting time and she is not allowing this. Until this happens I will be firm on exchange times.
Coach, This is SO helpful! Thank you. Also PDT, great examples. This is an area I need to work on NOW. Thanks everyone so much.
MsR2C made this statement about a month ago "I don't think it's in the best interest of the kids to let them stay at your house any more often than is required." and refuses to allow S8 an overnight with me during her parenting time.
Here is another boundary for me:
That is exactly my point. When it comes to our children, your personal dislike of me gets in the way of what is best for them. I am all about doing what is right for our kids, and am glad to sacrifice some of my parenting time to support your decisions that you have made for our children.
That is why I have brought up the rigid - flexible parenting discussion with you. We can be flexible, which in turn helps our children, or we can be rigid, which helps nobody.
I understand that you dislike me, thats a given. However, that does not change the fact that I love my children (as I know you do) and I am a good parent. My requests, when it comes to our children, should be given the same weight and thoughtfulness that you are asking me to give on your decisions that affect my parenting time with our children.
I have been flexible in the past, church, sports, etc. I stand ready to be flexible in the future. Again, I understand your dislike for me, but that does NOT disqualify me from loving , caring, and being a good parent for our children. When my thoughts, suggestions and parenting style are continually under attack by you, there is no reason to work with you.
I love that.
Puppy
One more:
Your response is exactly what I am talking about. It had nothing to do with the topic of mutual flexibility or rigidity. Your continued and unchecked anger stops you from having any ability to be thoughtful or contemplative about my input and suggestions regarding our children. It is disheartening and discouraging for me to continually be expected to support you when you never support me. My actions are based on that occurrence. I have grown weary of waiting for you to find the happiness and freedom you felt the divorce would give you. My parenting style will always be different from yours. That does not make it wrong. That does not make your parenting style wrong. They are just different. My feeling is until you can start showing some respect for me and the requests of our children regarding me, I am no longer obligated to try and support your decisions that affect my parenting time.
Again, I stand ready to be flexible and support your parenting style.
Man, this is the dream team right here! Thank you all for sticking around and keeping us informed. R2C, I've been learning from you since your bomb. My stbx has recently traded her anger in for joy, which is unnerving. She recently got everything she wanted from mediation and I feel like she's dancing on my grave. I should probably re-frame that one. Thanks again for the lessons on boundaries. It took me two years to figure out what "as if" meant. Now for some boundaries...
Actually, stbx is hoping to get some help from my therapist on co-parenting. I'm pretty sure she isn't questioning her style. I think I will study this page before entering that discussion. Carry on.
MsR2C made this statement about a month ago "I don't think it's in the best interest of the kids to let them stay at your house any more often than is required." and refuses to allow S8 an overnight with me during her parenting time.
Here is another boundary for me:
That is exactly my point. When it comes to our children, your personal dislike of me gets in the way of what is best for them. I am all about doing what is right for our kids, and am glad to sacrifice some of my parenting time to support your decisions that you have made for our children.
That is why I have brought up the rigid - flexible parenting discussion with you. We can be flexible, which in turn helps our children, or we can be rigid, which helps nobody.
I understand that you dislike me, thats a given. However, that does not change the fact that I love my children (as I know you do) and I am a good parent. My requests, when it comes to our children, should be given the same weight and thoughtfulness that you are asking me to give on your decisions that affect my parenting time with our children.
I have been flexible in the past, church, sports, etc. I stand ready to be flexible in the future. Again, I understand your dislike for me, but that does NOT disqualify me from loving , caring, and being a good parent for our children. When my thoughts, suggestions and parenting style are continually under attack by you, there is no reason to work with you.
What does "her parenting time" mean?
Is that when she has them?
What is your current custody arrangement?
Does she have them most of the time, do you share them 50% of the time?
We have joint custody (50/50 parenting time). All three kids are with me for 1 week (my parenting time), then with MsR2C for 1 week (her parenting time).
btw, the "correct" answer would have been:
"I'm really sorry you feel that way. You're an adult, and I can't tell you what to do, but I can tell you with absolute certainty (looking him dead in the eyes) that I cannot remain married to someone that would put a friendship ahead of their wife. Looks like we both have some decisions to make."
And then you refuse to move along with the marriage until the issue is resolved, one way or another.
I'd like to find the thread that the above quote re: putting friendship ahead of spouse came from. I really need to set a boundary that let's my wife know that her friendship with the same person that she had an PA with cannot continue if she expects me to do ANYTHING more for her. She left 2.5 weeks ago and is living with a friend. Although she claims that the physical incident only happened once, and they have been simply friends since that time, I don't feel that I can ever completely trust her until she cuts off all contact with him...particularly after I found out she was still secretly in contact with him months after I found out they had sex and I had asked them both to discontinue any contact.
This is one of many boundaries that I need to enforce, with the issue of my continued financial support coming right behind it. I don't know if I should use the cutoff of all financial assistance as the consequences of her decision to choose contact with OM over our marriage/R or not.
"I'm not ready for this sort of thing." - Adam Duritz
My Sitch
Just bought this book
Boundaries by Henry Cloud . Looks good.
I'd like to find the thread that the above quote re: putting friendship ahead of spouse came from. I really need to set a boundary that let's my wife know that her friendship with the same person that she had an PA with cannot continue if she expects me to do ANYTHING more for her. She left 2.5 weeks ago and is living with a friend. Although she claims that the physical incident only happened once, and they have been simply friends since that time, I don't feel that I can ever completely trust (you) until (you) cut(s) off all contact with him...particularly after I found out (you)(were) still secretly in contact with him months after I found out (you) had sex and I had asked (you) both to discontinue any contact.
This is one of many boundaries that I need to enforce, with the issue of my continued financial support coming right behind it. I don't know if I should use the cutoff of all financial assistance as the consequences of her decision to choose contact with OM over our marriage/R or not.
You've answered your own question.
It is very good book:
Boundaries define my soul and help me guard it and maintain it. Knowing what I am responsible for gives me freedom and happiness. Good boundaries keep good in and bad out.
I doubt you will, but I highly recommend you go get the "Boundaries in Marriage" book by Cloud and Townsend, Christian authors. You can even get an audio version if you don't want to read it!
In short, if you establish boundaries, a person's initial reaction may be to pull away or get hostile, because you just changed the rules on them and they are thrown off...
If they value your relationship, it doesn't take too long for them to get on board.
If they continue to be hostile and pull away, then you figured out they don't value your relationship. Not just spouses, but friends, family members, etc etc...
The regular "Boundaries" book is great, too, more general. In the end it says that healthy boundaries help you realize which people in your life are there for the right reasons and which people are not good for you...
.
One of the misconceptions about DBing, in my opinion, is the "Do what works" thing. The problem is that people mis-define "works" as being "what doesn't make her/him angry" and "what makes her/him act nice towards me." Instead of as "what moves me further along down the path toward a mutually-healthy and committed marriage."
Sometimes one has to take a short-term "hit" in the "nice" department in order to solidify a healthier, longer-term gain.
Puppy
I love this!! It is a good thread for anyone no matter where they are in life. It is a good thing to learn not just for communicating with your H or W but also the entire family!!
I do think it is a learned skill though. Like PTD pointed out, it is often more about how and what you say rather than the point you are trying to make.
GREAT timing here by the way!!
I agree, this is a very good thread.
One of the points of boundaries is defining where my responsibilities ends. Once I determine that, it is easy to see where everyone else's responsibilities start.
Just asking my self the question "Who's responsibility is this?" is a great start.
I am responsible FOR me and TO others. Take care of me first, then I have more to give to others.
I think this is a common misconception. Ultimatums are controlling behavior; boundaries are not.
An ultimatum is "Do XXX or YYY will happen." Controlling
A boundary is "I feel WWW when you do XXX. Because of that, if you do XXX then YYY will happen." Boundary because you explain your feelings; which should lead the other person to make an informed choice.
And YYY is OUR behavior.
I'm still getting to grips with boundaries so I hope you will bear with me... I have a question. How do you maintain and/ or enforce your boundary?
A couple of pages ago on this thread I set a boundary with my husband. He continually suggested meeting up and then did not let me know what was happening in regards to plans in a timely manner and more often cancelled me at the last moment. To sum it up, I stated that this behaviour made me feel very frustrated and I could not see an instance in which we could meet under these conditions again.
He has emailed me regarding some other stuff and has asked to meet me again. Here are his words
'It would be really good to meet up, I want to hear all about what's happening at work. However I have more driving to do next week so I know next week is out. Perhaps the week after? I won't cancel on you, I promise.'
I don't know how to answer in a strong manner to maintain my boundary as I do not want to fall into old patterns again. This is the new strong me (who is finally divorcing him for adultery after 2 years and he should receive the papers next week) but he seems to respond better to the stronger me and I don't want to sound like sappy me again.
I wondered if anyone has any suggestions as to how I should reply.
Perhaps
'Hi, yes I could meet you, however I am very busy trying to squeeze everything in before I go away so let me know by the weekend before when and where you fancy meeting.'
Any help gratefully appreciated
'Hi, yes I could meet you, however I am very busy trying to squeeze everything in before I go away so let me know by the weekend before when and where you fancy meeting.'
Hi, I will be at THIS LOCATION on THIS DATE. I will be getting coffee at starbucks at 5:00. Feel free to stop by.
Strong, confident, on YOUR terms. His consequence if he does not show up.
I just had lunch with a friend. His partner of 12 years recently changed her behavior and has been going out to the bars and drinking. Long story short, he set a healthy boundary with her.
He gave her two choices: stop going to the bars and work on the R, or get out. She continued the unacceptable behavior, so he gathered all her things, put them in the garage. He changed the locks. She was shocked. She now has her own place.
I got really mad but I thought BOUNDARIES. I looked him dead in the eye and I said, "that was disrespectful" and I left the room.
I feel this was a good boundary. You took action and removed yourself from an emotionally hurtful situation. Great job! You also channeled your anger into healthy action.
Well I dunno what to do. There has been no R talk. He pretty much moved into the spare room suitcase and all. He brought home every last thing he had at his sister's house. Full on back in our home. But won't man up and talk about it. Its weird.....
1am, H comes home and comes to my room. He wakes me up ...
We had some basic conversation then H slid into the bed to talk more. More basic conversation. While pillow talking he rubbed my arm and back. Then I said I was super tired so he took the hint and asked for a hug. So i gave him a hug, but laying down it turned into a cuddle. While cuddling he said " I could just sleep here, I'm so tired" Finally got out of bed and went to the spare....Does he really think he can just move home and then try to move in to the OUR room without talking about it? There is no way he is going to slide on into our bedroom again without a word.
Good. It might not be a bad idea to set that boundary finally:
"I'm glad to have you home, but I don't want to make the situation more confusing for us, and especially the kids, right now. So until you've decided that you want to work on things, I would prefer that you stay out of my bedroom at night."
Beautifully said. Another option is to drop the "At night". Another option is to "unless invited".
I just wanted to say that this is a great thread. Not only was it started with some great broad concepts, Coach then provided specific examples of how to structure boundaries, and now we've got examples posted from other people's threads.
FANTASTIC!!!
Puppy
From "BrownEyedMom"
Last night, after the boys were in bed and H was at the kitchen table with his laptop while I was cleaning up the kitchen, I said, " I have something I want to say to you and I am not looking for a response. What you said to me the other night about buying a house without me- if your intentions are to buy a house because you want to walk away from this marriage, so be it. But if you do not intend to walk away from this marriage, I need you to know that I will have to be included in the process of looking for and buying a house if you want me to leave this house with you. I will not go from owning a home with my husband to selling it and moving into a house with you that is not in my name. I will not ever put myself in the position of having to leave if I am ever asked to do so. I have to look out for myself. So, if you want to stay together as a family, I need to be included in this decision and process."
And then I went back to loading the dishwasher. He didn't respond in any way and I am glad that he didn't. I was feeling very vulnerable after being alone with my thoughts yesterday and a discussion would not have been a good direction for me to head into. I felt better afterwards because I said it like I meant it. Though I was feeling very emotional, it didn't creep its way into my voice. Thus, I was able to go to sleep last night.
OK, I will jump in here, and I will be blunt.
Last August, Puppy nudged me into setting boundaries, with my then, still somewhat live-in H. I basically booted him out. He's been sliding downhill for a long, long time, and I was sliding with him.
Financially, now he's claiming to be going under and wants me to put my signature on a $5,000 loan from his 40lK account, which BTW, comes in the midst of our divorce as well as in the middle of slow work time for him. (He filed on 10/30 but I've yet to be served). He also claim not to have any money because of lack of work. I can't help wondering why, after all this time, he files at a time when he has "no work, and can't pay the bills." On 10/23, he sent a $350 prepaid credit card number to his long time gf/with benefits.
Ironically, I'm wavering about what to do. I know I only want to do what's best for me. He's never sat down with me. He's been mentally abusive for A LONG TIME.
Part of me still wants to meet with him and set boundaries like, "I'm here for the facts. I won't make a decision without all of them. And, if I hear one lie, all bets are off." And, then I want to be able to make my decision.
The other part of me says, "Absolutely, positively no. Let him sink in his own sh__!" But then I wonder, "Is that really the Godly thing to do?"
There's no time like the present to do the right thing.
Coach, will you ever weigh in my [post]question?
The ever-loving poet!
The other part of me says, "Absolutely, positively no. Let him sink in his own sh__!" But then I wonder, "Is that really the Godly thing to do?"
Poet, questions to ask yourself:
Where does your responsibility end and his begin?
Will you be ENABLING irresponsible behavior?
Coach, will you ever weigh in my [post]question?
Sure since you asked. Can you point in the right direction, where is the question?
give him this type of prepared speech...
"Well, I have been doing some thinking. Here is what I have decided. I have seen you move out and then move back in. Not a word from you about what is going on with us and your certainly don't make much of an effort to make this marriage better. Your kids are scared you are going to leave again, you don't tell them when you are going or when you will be home and you don't give me the sense that you really want to be here with me."
(NOW for the important part of the speech)....."I have decided (and say it exactly with those words of "I HAVE DECIDED) that isn't what I WANT. I don't want a man that can't or won't be a partner and I most certainly don't want a man that just up and leaves and comes and goes as he pleases.
So, I have decided that I think it would be best if you found another place. The sooner the better. I won't live like this anymore.
Maybe go back to your sisters or whatever. I would like you to be out within two weeks."
And then tell him that is all you have to say and walk away. There is nothing more to talk about. He may call you and think you are bluffing. It is my firm belief that you MUST follow through on what you told him. You need to put him through a crisis of major proportions. He either steps up to the plate or you are moving on down the road....
Remember, I told you that your fear could paralyze you. You can not let this man keep intimidating you. You have to take charge and be strong. The whole relationship can be turned around with a tough stance here. Being a weak doormat isn't working. He will just keep coming and going as he pleases UNTIL YOU make a stand. You can't force him to be what you want him to be. However by letting him believe you are letting him go and maybe even wanting him to go, you will have a chance to put him through his much needed crisis about what is really important to him.
Be strong. If he says he will leave after your speech, then LET HIM. Call his bluff. Do not live this way. Better to know now.
Here is my spin on it:
I have seen you move out and then back into this house and not one word from you about what is going on with us. I feel you are not putting effort into this marriage. You give me the sense that you really don't want to be here with me.
(NOW for the important part of the speech)....."I have decided (and say it exactly with those words of "I HAVE DECIDED) that isn't what I WANT. I don't want a man that can't or won't be a partner and I most certainly don't want a man that just up and leaves his family as he pleases.
(AND THE SECOND IMPORTANT PART : TWO options : Work on the marriage or get the F out) Put the burden of choice ON HIM.
If you want to be married to me, I want:
1) Counseling
2) Complete transparency
3) .....(You and others can fill this in)
Otherwise I will file for D and I would like you completely moved out by the end of this weekend.
Doing this at a public place is a good option, or Email, or person to person if it is safe.
Excellent thread. Lots to think about. Peace.
Remember that you don't give her control......she needs to worry about what "you" will decide to do.....not what she decides. If she brings up the subject of coming back, you need to tell you that you will have to have time to think long & hard about staying with a woman who has walked out on her H & child.
A good indicator that I need to set a boundary is ANY FEAR based emotion. When I feel angry, it is time to reflect on what boundary I DID NOT SET, and then set one. Asking 5 why's typically gets me to the real issue. Using this thought process created my latest boundary:
"When you do not respond to my questions and expect me to answer your questions, I feel disrespected. I want an answer to my question before I answer anymore of your questions. Do you want a flexible or rigid parenting arrangement?"
Hello again,
Well, I talked to H's atty today. She is going to set up a meeting whereby I will go to her office to pick up the divorce papers next week. She will have a plain-clothed civil service deputy there to witness the signing and will be available for me to "talk" afterwards.
All I can say is I tried my best to save this marriage. But one person cannot do it alone. No matter what the DB book says, the other partner has to be ammenable to, at least. talking in a face-to--face encounter, which my H never did from beginning until now, and continues to ignore.
It's one thing to try and save a marriage. It's another thing to have to put up a boundary to save your own soul. I was one who had to make that decision way back last year, when I realized there was -- what's it called -- constant infidelity. I know for a fact that H is laughing about Tiger's affairs with his friends. How does that strike me? It stikes me as my H thinks it funny because he's swimming in the same cesspool.
Here's my question, Coach...
How does one continue to try and save their marriage when boundaries have to be erected???
Can't be any clearer than that!
peace,
poet
How does one continue to try and save their marriage when boundaries have to be erected???
I strongly suggest reading the boundary book. It will then be clear as to why it is important to set boundaries.
As far as saving the marriage, I feel boundaries are just one tool. They help make positive changes to the R and get responsibilities back to the proper person.
In the days after confronting my H, I focused on communicating to him that I do not want a D, that I am willing to work on our issues, my own and help him with his but only if there is NC with OW. I "kept the road paved" back to the M if that is what he chose, but with the clear boundaries in place. I then backed off, took care of myself and the kids. I let the R with OW self-destruct. Which it did. When OW found out I knew everything, she thought that was her chance to push hard to get H to move out and move in with her. She showed her true colors in not caring about impact on me and kids. This was a huge wake up for H. I made myself "the better option".
Wow! I am new here and there's really a lot to learn from the forum!
I can really use some advice about setting boundaries. H's been having A since June this year and I suspect that it has something to do with MLC. Shortly after admitting the A in July, H said he needs time to consider the whole thing and I've been trying to give him the time and space. Until recently he seems to be drifting in between but he seems to be getting deeper and deeper into the A as OW's husband has moved out lately.
One thing that annoys me most is H chatting with OW almost every night on Facebook. I want to set some boundaries but really don't know how. I'm also worry that it might drive him out of the M or move out immediately. It is really a dilemma for me!
BiBi
Wow! I am new here and there's really a lot to learn from the forum!
I can really use some advice about setting boundaries. H's been having A since June this year and I suspect that it has something to do with MLC. Shortly after admitting the A in July, H said he needs time to consider the whole thing and I've been trying to give him the time and space. Until recently he seems to be drifting in between but he seems to be getting deeper and deeper into the A as OW's husband has moved out lately.
One thing that annoys me most is H chatting with OW almost every night on Facebook. I want to set some boundaries but really don't know how. I'm also worry that it might drive him out of the M or move out immediately. It is really a dilemma for me!
BiBi
As I think Puppy posted similarly somewhere else in the last 24 hours, if you have that fear / worry, you're not going to be able to work on saving your M effectively.
There's plenty in this tread and forum on setting boundaries. "I will not live in an open relationship" is a good start. "You will not contact OW in my presence or in our home", "You will not spend our family finances on having an affair", or simply "You will stop contact with OW" are all worthy of considerations.
As I posted in your thread, take the time to absorb what you read here and think things through for yourself. And be prepared to pack his stuff and dump them on the lawn if he breaks your boundaries with OW (you can set him a deadline).
Boundaries are meaningless btw if you have no intention of enforcing them.
It is important to understand the difference between boundaries and controlling behavior:
"I will not live in an open relationship" is a good start. "You will not contact OW in my presence or in our home", "You will not spend our family finances on having an affair", or simply "You will stop contact with OW" are all worthy of considerations.
Start Boundaries with I statements, not YOU statements:
"I will not live in an open relationship"
"I will not tolerate you contacting OW in my presence or in our home"
I will not tolerate you spending our family finances on having an affair"
I will not tolerate you contacting OW"
Follow those statements with this thought process:
If you continue this disrespectful behavior, I will take this action.
"
I will not tolerate you contacting OW, If you continue contacting the OW,
I WILL file for D."
I explained to him what transparency meant and that he would feel like I would be watching him 24/7 and he would feel like he was under the microscope.
"I understand how you could feel that way. I need the transparency to heal and regain trust. If you can't agree then it will lead to a divorce because I cannot live that way."
Validation of his feelings - Your need - Consequence of his behavior, which is his choice.
Thanks R2C, forgot that basic rule of the "I" start
.
from the Dog Whipserer:
Rules, boundaries, and limitations -
- Dogs need to know that their pack leader is clearly setting the rules, boundaries and limitations for their life both inside and outside the house.
- Anger, aggression, or abuse toward the dog will not establish you as pack leader; an angry, aggressive leader is not in control. Calm-assertive energy and daily, consistent leadership behavior will make enforcing the rules easier.
Issues – If a dog doesn’t trust its owner to be a strong, stable pack leader, it becomes unclear about its correct role within the pack. A dog that is confused about who is in charge is actually concerned about the ability of the pack to survive, so it attempts to fill in the missing leadership elements, often erratically. This can cause aggression, anxiety, fear, obsessions, or phobias – what I call “issues”.
Calm-assertive energy – This is the energy you project to show your dog you are the calm and assertive pack leader. Note: assertive does not mean angry or aggressive. Calm-assertive means always compassionate, but quietly in control
HMMMM?
So, be a fair, compassionate, strong alpha dog.
Coach, Puppy, R2C
I set the boundary with my h that we discussed a few pages back. It took some strength to do but it paid off. Things were quite different this time we met.
- He pursued me to meet up
- He arranged the time and day a week before
- He contacted me the night before to set a venue.
- He paid for the meal
- He has since sent me Christmas card and is sending me a present to take with me on my travels as I am off backpacking for 5 weeks.
- I was strong, calm, friendly, relaxed and happy (not happy at meeting him but happy in my new strength) and in control in the meeting.
I am now not changing a thing. I am not going to pursue, get excited that these small gestures mean he is coming home, but enjoy my holiday.
Thank you for helping me 'get' this. It has helped me feel so much stronger.
Here is a draft of the next boundary going out, all input is welcome:
Hi W,
You're an adult, and I can't tell you what to do, but when you avoid discussing issues concerning our children, I feel frustrated that your dislike of me prevents you from doing what is best for our kids. I am sad that you continue to choose rigidity over flexibility as well as silence over communication. I feel alarmed and know with absolute certainty this is not healthy for our children. I want what is best for our kids: flexibility and communication.
I have been flexible in the past and I stand ready to be flexible in the future. You have a perfect opportunity to show flexibility now by allowing S10 to spend time with my dad during your parenting time. We both know that nothing else is going on the day in question. If you choose to prevent him from going with my dad, I will continue to follow your lead and remain rigid with your requests. I will also follow you lead on limiting the contact with your family during my parenting time.
Just like a lawyer.....
Hi W,
You're an adult, and I can't tell you what to do, but when you avoid discussing issues concerning our children, I feel frustrated that your dislike of me prevents you us from doing what is best for our kids. I am sad that you continue to choose rigidity over flexibility as well as silence over communication. I feel alarmed and know with absolute certainty this is not healthy for our children. I want what is best for our kids: flexibility and communication.
I have been flexible in the past and I stand ready to be flexible in the future. You have a perfect opportunity to show flexibility now by allowing S10 to spend time with my dad during your parenting time. We both know that nothing else is going on the day in question. If you choose to prevent him from going with my dad, I will continue to follow your lead and remain rigid with your requests. I will also follow your lead on limiting the contact with your family during my parenting time.
For what it is worth R2C here is my thoughts on this. Just taking out things that seem more petty and almost name calling. Just tell her your stance with less emotion.
I like some of your changes. I feel it is important to state my feelings to her (a 180) and am following advise from John Gray-Mars/Venus P237 that helps express all feelings.
Start with anger,then sadness, then fear, then regret then love.
Next pass:
Hi W,
When you avoid discussing issues concerning our children, I feel frustrated that your dislike of me prevents us from doing what is best for our kids. I am sad that you continue to choose rigidity over flexibility as well as silence over communication. I feel alarmed and know with absolute certainty this is not healthy for our children. I want what is best for our kids: flexibility and communication.
I have been flexible in the past and I stand ready to be flexible in the future. You have a perfect opportunity to show flexibility now by allowing S10 to spend time with my dad during your parenting time. If you choose to prevent him from going with my dad, I will continue to follow your lead and remain rigid with your requests. I will also follow your lead on limiting the contact with your family during my parenting time.
how does this work with not bringing up R or M? when does it go against doing a 180?
Hi R2C and everybody:
I'm a new comer and just started my thread a few days ago. Please stop by my thread and give some input. Donna wan to get my thread by any mean here.
Just wanted to ask all of you is it ok if I say this to W, who takes our kids out to see her OM and his family:
"W,
You’re an adult, and you can do what you want. I cannot control you. However, I need to remind you that even though our R is in crisis, I do have an equal right as you do to know who, where, and what our kids will see, be, and play with. There are certain people I don't want our kids to be associated with or exposed to. I'll feel disrespectful if you cross this line. Neither you nor I want to drag our kids into our currently difficult relationship. However, if you choose to cross it, I will file for a full protection for the kids from seeing these people."
thanks
Coach~
A proper thank you for your help a few days ago...
The boundaries were indeed followed to the letter...
The outcome was different then I had anticipated (and wasn't warned about
)but I passed that as well.
(((Hugs)))
Happy New Year
I like some of your changes. I feel it is important to state my feelings to her (a 180) and am following advise from John Gray-Mars/Venus P237 that helps express all feelings.
Start with anger,then sadness, then fear, then regret then love.
Next pass:
Hi W,
When you avoid discussing issues concerning our children, I feel frustrated that your dislike of me prevents us from doing what is best for our kids. I am sad that you continue to choose rigidity over flexibility as well as silence over communication. I feel alarmed and know with absolute certainty this is not healthy for our children. I want what is best for our kids: flexibility and communication.
I have been flexible in the past and I stand ready to be flexible in the future. You have a perfect opportunity to show flexibility now by allowing S10 to spend time with my dad during your parenting time. If you choose to prevent him from going with my dad, I will continue to follow your lead and remain rigid with your requests. I will also follow your lead on limiting the contact with your family during my parenting time.
Her response "blablabla....I will let you know my decision on Monday."
YA!!!!! It is great to put the responsibilities and the consequences back on the appropriate person. We shall see if she chooses wisely!
I like some of your changes. I feel it is important to state my feelings to her (a 180) and am following advise from John Gray-Mars/Venus P237 that helps express all feelings.
Start with anger,then sadness, then fear, then regret then love.
Next pass:
Hi W,
When you avoid discussing issues concerning our children, I feel frustrated that your dislike of me prevents us from doing what is best for our kids. I am sad that you continue to choose rigidity over flexibility as well as silence over communication. I feel alarmed and know with absolute certainty this is not healthy for our children. I want what is best for our kids: flexibility and communication.
I have been flexible in the past and I stand ready to be flexible in the future. You have a perfect opportunity to show flexibility now by allowing S10 to spend time with my dad during your parenting time. If you choose to prevent him from going with my dad, I will continue to follow your lead and remain rigid with your requests. I will also follow your lead on limiting the contact with your family during my parenting time.
Her response "blablabla....I will let you know my decision on Monday."
YA!!!!! It is great to put the responsibilities and the consequences back on the appropriate person. We shall see if she chooses wisely!
SHE SAID YES!!!!! Her relpy:
I talked to S10 and he would really like to go on this trip. I will let him go this last time but tell your dad to stop signing him up for things during my time. Also, don't ever threaten me with the kids again by telling me that you're going to "limit my time"!
You mean . . . this stuff actually WORKS???
Man, no wonder Coach left. He went somewhere to start CHARGING for this chit!!
Puppy
SHE SAID YES!!!!! Her relpy:
I talked to S10 and he would really like to go on this trip. I will let him go this last time but tell your dad to stop signing him up for things during my time. Also, don't ever threaten me with the kids again by telling me that you're going to "limit my time"!
(I am aware that W signed up S10 for baseball, so this is the leadin to the next boundary)
My Response:
Hi W,
Thanks for doing this for S10. It means a lot to him.
I completely understand your frustration when the kids get signed up for things during your parenting time without your consent. It makes me sad when the kids get put in the middle of our issues. I worry about how it will affect them long term. I know for certain that other important events will occur during the other parents time in the future. If we want to keep the kids out of our issues, we will get the other parents consent before giving the children any decisions. As long as your parents and mine understand this, and as long as we are both flexible when exceptions occur, I don't see too many future issues.
You mean . . . this stuff actually WORKS???
Man, no wonder Coach left. He went somewhere to start CHARGING for this chit!!
Puppy
When's YOUR book going to be ready????
The publisher nixed it when I looked like a stalker in my book jacket
photo shoot.
I see you still aren't clear on what a boundary is. Here is a template:
Setting: When you _____, I feel ______, I want __________ .
Enforcing: if you ______ I will __________ .
e.g. When you cook your food and leave the dirty dishes in the sink, I feel like I'm living with a pig. I want you to clean up after yourself from now on and show some respect for my home. If you continue to behave like an animal I will move the dishes into your room so you will be more comfortable.
A boundary is USELESS unless you are prepared to ENFORCE it. You will be challenged and tested on every one of your boundaries. So make darned sure you can enforce them because if you don't you are wasting your breath and increasing the contempt she feels for you.
The advise that is counter-intuitive works. It is now common sense to me. Stand up to irresponsible behavior with boundaries. Point out the two choices (irresponsible and responsible) and what actions you will take for each choice. Clearly state how the person you are talking to needs to behave in order to show responsible behavior.
One step away:
"When you yell at your sister, I feel my energy draining. If you continue to yell, I will not have enough energy to take you to the birthday party tonight, If you calmly discuss your concerns with your sister, I will take you to the party tonight."
My kids know this is no bluff and stop yelling.
This thread is very interesting. I would love an opportunity to show some backbone to my wife, but I'm not sure how to apply any boundaries in my sitch.
My W has shown no concern for our M. She has stated, flat out, that her A (which she calls a R) makes her happy, and I don't. Given a choice, right now, she would choose him without blinking an eye. Our C only regards S3, no R or M talks, not even small talk. We work well, mostly, regarding timesharing.
I don't really see how I can use boundaries to directly impact my M, when she does not care about it. I can't force her to reconsider how she feels about me. I can only imagine boundaries involving our S, but I have relatively few complaints about how we work together for him.
There is one thing. I would like her to be transparent about her activities w/ him. Mainly to be sure she's not doing anything messed up with OM in front of our S. I suppose a custody petition could be an enforcement. Might there be other possible enforcements?
Could use a little help with wording of a boundary I want to set for my W.
Here is the backgroud:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...802#Post1915802Here is what I was thinking of saying:
When I know that you are having contact with OM, I feel like I can’t trust you. I asked you to stop, but you started again. I feel disrespected. I feel like you are lying to me. I will never be able to heal knowing that you are still in contact with him.
I want you to stop having any contact with him. Immediately.
If that is a problem, then let me know, but I can’t go on like this. If you can’t stop, then I need to move on and make a decision about whether I want to stay in this relationship.
Thanks for any advice you can give.
So here is my question. What do you do with a WAW who still lives in the same home that has an internet EA. I do not even discuss it with her right now because I know her choice at the moment would be the EA. But I also do not like her on my computer video and web chatting with him all the time. How do you set boundaries for this and is now even the time. Before when she brought him up it would be to tell me what he though. Now when she does she is letting me know what he does that she wishes I had or would do? I know he is pressuring her to see him even though he lives three states away.I am doing good with no bringing it up for now. My hardest thing is we do better when she has had minimal contact with him. She starts to come around and say and do things that shows even though she says she is done she really isn't. Is now even the time to set this boundary? She seems to think that she has to consider his feelings of hurt if she ever does break it off.
She seems to think that she has to consider his feelings of hurt if she ever does break it off.
.
Your wife doesn't respect you. Turn off the internet access at your home, cancel her cell phone.
Give here the "I have decided ....." speech. You will live like this as long as you let her behave this way. You control how you handle things.
Ok...She will most likely leave and saying I am trying to control her but I get what you are saying...This one will be hard. Of course her parents do not want her home either. Only problem is I have to have internet access for my 2nd job.
Then change the password so she can't get on the computer. Stop telling everybody the problems and focus on solutions - what can you do to have the life you want? Then do it.
Boundaries are not controlling - her behavior is unacceptable. It's her choice how she behaves but if she crosses the boundary then these are the consequences. The first step in not being a doormat is get up off the floor.
Gotcha...will do then...Soon as I get home...I also planned tell her that when I am at work she is not to have another man in the house while I am gone I work 6 on and 6 off so there is ample opportunity and they have been discussing him visiting. I just told her it is basic human respect not to have another man in a house and bed I pay for, that it will be extremely confusing for the child no matter how much she thinks the child will not notice and that it would not be tolerated. What do you think the best way to put this would be...If she does this she will have to go stay with her parents and when her dad asks why he won't be too happy.I can't lie to him about why though he has really helped us out in the past and he has already expressed to my wife that she needs to work this out because he has seen genuine change.
thanks for your thread, ! rob668
So here is my question. What do you do with a WAW who still lives in the same home that has an internet EA. I do not even discuss it with her right now because I know her choice at the moment would be the EA. But I also do not like her on my computer video and web chatting with him all the time. How do you set boundaries for this and is now even the time. Before when she brought him up it would be to tell me what he though. Now when she does she is letting me know what he does that she wishes I had or would do? I know he is pressuring her to see him even though he lives three states away.I am doing good with no bringing it up for now. My hardest thing is we do better when she has had minimal contact with him. She starts to come around and say and do things that shows even though she says she is done she really isn't. Is now even the time to set this boundary? She seems to think that she has to consider his feelings of hurt if she ever does break it off.
I know what I would do. Turn the internet off
Yeah I am going to. She will most likely scream and yell about it and say she is going back to her parents...she will say I am trying to be controlling and she wants love from him not me cause I had my chance...Do not think her parents will let her come back under those circumstances unless it is under the pretext of she needs a pc to find a job...Just trying to figure out the best way to do this and the best way to handle this when she starts screaming saying it is over...fact is I helped open the door for this other guy...
You tell her exactly why you did it. You will not enable the affair. Take a strong stance here. This conversation should be continued on your thread...
SHE SAID YES!!!!! Her relpy:
I talked to S10 and he would really like to go on this trip. I will let him go this last time but tell your dad to stop signing him up for things during my time. Also, don't ever threaten me with the kids again by telling me that you're going to "limit my time"!
(I am aware that W signed up S10 for basketball, so this is the leadin to the next boundary)
My Response:
Hi W,
Thanks for doing this for S10. It means a lot to him.
I completely understand your frustration when the kids get signed up for things during your parenting time without your consent. It makes me sad when the kids get put in the middle of our issues. I worry about how it will affect them long term. I know for certain that other important events will occur during the other parents time in the future. If we want to keep the kids out of our issues, we will get the other parents consent before giving the children any decisions. As long as your parents and mine understand this, and as long as we are both flexible when exceptions occur, I don't see too many future issues.
So I just received an Email that W has signed S10 up for basketball with out my consent here is my draft response. All input welcomed:
Hi W,
I thought we just had a discussion about signing our kids up for events during the other parents time.
I am concerned about S10'S performance in school. S10 and I have discussed the posibility of loosing his privalage to play sports if his performance in school does not improve. When you sign our kids up for events during my parenting time without discussing it with me, I feel just as frustrated as you do if someone signs them up for events during your time. I am sad that you feel it is OK to do this. Before I sign the kids up for anything that requires your involvement, I run it past you. I expect the same repect from you. I have decided this will be the last time I will support your unilateral decisions. In the future, I want you to run everything past me that affects my parenting time.
Hey cutterbug I answered your last post to me on my thread. It is under newcomers and the title is Please help I have a Walk Away Wife. It will help you understand the good and bad points better as well...thanks so much
I have a question regarding the OM. Should I be setting a boundary given the following:
- W has already moved out.
- W has taken all of her items.
- No Contact is currently in effect.
- She is pushing for formalized separation agreement.
GHM,
Very good question. This is very difficult to do when they are in full walkaway mode. If it were me, I would still attempt to, however, with something like the following:
"Wife, you say you want space, and a formal separation agreement. And I know you have some legitimate complaints about my role in the dysfunction in our marriage. I acknowledge that, and as you know i am working on my issues, and I hope that in time you will learn to trust that my changes are for real.
"I am willing to go to marriage counseling with you to try to save our marriage. I think we may both regret it someday if we don't do everything we can to try. But I'm not a fool, and I need to be clear with you. I cannot respect your decision to cut-and-run like this, and I damned sure can't respect your decision to involve a 3rd person in our marriage. (at this point she will try to stop you, and lie to you). Put your hand up in the "stop" position, and say "Please stop --we both know you're lying to me right now, so let me finish.
"You need to know that I will not share you with another man, and I will not be your friend if you choose to end our marriage this way. Whatever is going on with this guy, it needs to stop, but I realize that I cannot control you and I have no desire to. Just know that I will not be agreeable to a separation until such time that you've REALLY worked on our marriage with me, without the involvement of a third person. If you refuse to end that, then I will have no choice but to protect myself as much as I possibly can. I do love you, but I won't be made a fool."
And then I'd walk away.
If she tries to deny OM, say "Please stop lying to me. It's incredibly disrespectful to me and to our marriage. When you're ready to speak to me honestly, we can continue the conversation. As for the legal stuff, I think that would be best if we left that to our attorneys."
That's what I would do. And then I would spend the next two weeks finding out everything I could about OM. Who he is, what he does, is he married, what it is he does that attracted my wife.
I would combine a hard legal stance and hardline confrontation/exposure, with loving detachment, GAL, 180s and working on my own issues.
Puppy
Hello All!
In order to avoide living in doormat-land, I've received some sage advice from people here that I need to establish boundaries with my SO.
The problem is I'm very bad at confrontations and usually end up doing all the wrong things. (See my own sitch thread for blatant examples of this.)
The specific boundary I'm looking to set concerns my SO's relationship with an OM. She says they're "just friends", but I'm more inclined to believe its at least an EA, as they supposedly talk a lot and hang out together.
If it should become physical, I dont want anything more to do with my SO, and I did tell her in a conversation that if she was to be involved with this OM I would not be interested in being with her. However, she threw out some bread crumbs and agreed to spend time with me, and I'm not sure I properly established the boundary. I'm also worried that *that* would have been the time to firmly establish it, and rehashing things when in her mind its been put to rest is going to creat more problems than it will solve.
It seems when I'm working without a plan and or script, I waiver and even backpeddle.
I dont want it to come off as controlling...I've already seen what happens when I try to ask her to be faithful to me and I when I try to point out things about the OM...I am met with a firm "no", resentment and defense of him.
So do any of you have a good "script" that will politely but firmly establish this boundary with the consequences of her and I being done for good and not seeing or speaking to one another unless our daughter is ill/hurt without it provoking her or pushing her towards the OM?
Thanks!
I had some thoughts on this recently, and reading through MB28's thread reminded me. Looking back at Coach's first post here, it struck methat perhaps boundaries are what makes all relationships, including Ms. It defines the space within which individuals dea with each other.
When a marriage takes place, 2 people are in love, and voluntarily pledge themselves to each other, placing boundaries on themselves individually as signs of this bond, and in assurance of the other; happily accepting general limits on their actions to honor, respect, and cherish the spouse - as a person, a life partner, a soulmate to start new life with possibly. It is a covenant.
When this covenant breaks, when 1 or both are in such misery, they want the M over, they shatter the sanctity, exclusivity, and meaning of the bond, they violate the trust, al bets are off. There is no honor or respect. This is where boundaries need to be laid and enforced by the individual, to protect oneself, to reclaim honor and respect, firstly as a person deserving of such, and then perhaps, for the shattered M, which may stand a chance of re-building upon a new foundations.
Interesting mix of mindsets I thought ...
Deep,
When a marriage takes place, 2 people are in love, and voluntarily pledge themselves to each other, placing boundaries on themselves individually as signs of this bond, and in assurance of the other; happily accepting general limits on their actions to honor, respect, and cherish the spouse - as a person, a life partner, a soulmate to start new life with possibly. It is a covenant.
When this covenant breaks, when 1 or both are in such misery, they want the M over, they shatter the sanctity, exclusivity, and meaning of the bond, they violate the trust, al bets are off. There is no honor or respect. This is where boundaries need to be laid and enforced by the individual, to protect oneself, to reclaim honor and respect, firstly as a person deserving of such, and then perhaps, for the shattered M, which may stand a chance of re-building upon a new foundations.
Yours is a very interesting and fascinating take on this.
Thanks Sir, although I wish I had taken better care of the spelling / grammar. Ah the wonders and travails of mobile computing!
Ughs. The alt is bugging like crazy.
This thread is really useful. Wondering if you could help me apply this to my situation. In two days, my walkaway husband and I are due to meet with a psychiatrist to talk about potential co-parenting of our yet-to-be-born child (she arrives in 2.5months). I would like to set two boundaries at this meeting and would appreciate any help on the phrasing.
1. While there is nothing more I would like than us to be parenting this child together, I feel that it is not at all feasible given you have seperated from me mid-pregnancy and are continuing to build a life with another woman (she is his PA). On top of that, you have told me you are likely to move interstate and then overseas permenantly. Every child needs a father, but these intentions tell me you don't really want to be a father (even though you say you want to be a father!). Therefore I really wonder what is the use of co-parenting counselling. I think it would be easier and better for me to raise this child on my own.
Does that sound like a clear boundary. Can anyone suggest better wording?
2. I'd also like to say to him that the current circumstances are hurting me so much, that I think I would have a healthier and calmer pregnancy if we had no contact.
Any tips on rewording that one in a more affective way?
Thanks so much for your any help you can provide.
Puppy,
I thought what you wrote was excellent. My W and I are also separated and have been so for 4 months. If you want more info of my sitch please read my thread if you would like...link is in my sig.
I would like to say something very similar of your advice to GHM and use it in my sitch to my W. My question for you is if you think it's appropriate to say this to my W now or wait a while first. Right now we are in the stressful process of discussing financial issues. So I don't know if it might be better to wait to say your advice to my W now or wait until after my W and I finish discussing our financial issues.
The only thing I might take out from your advice is the part about OM as I still have not seen this in my sitch. So I don't think it would be wise to accuse her of something for which I have no proof and may not be happening. If you look at my last few posts in my sitch you can see my W has a lot of anger and trust issues with me right now...not exaclty sure why but I"m not sure if I should tread lightly on some issues for now?
Thanks for you time.
mza8
I stumbled on this boundaries thread and was wondering if someone could help with this issue as I think it might be a boundary thing, but not sure.
W and I have been in MC for about 3 months now, we're still separated and she's not yet committed to working on our marriage, though we have resolved many issues in MC.
During exchanges of our son I've been inviting her into my apartment now for nearly 3 and a half months. She even had lunch here once. During that whole time she has not once let me in her house during a pickup/dropoff. I feel disrepected by that act, somehow. That she lets friends and family enter her house, but not me.
Is this a boundary issue and can you think of a nice way for me to state it? I don't see any enforcement possibility if she just doesn't care. I don't want to do something retaliatory like not letting her my place anymore...that seems childish.
My H does that to me at times. I've dropped it. I agree it's one of the most hurtful things possible to have done to you. It lacks basic civility and seems passive-aggressive at best. That said, I've decided to reframe it as a mental and emotional issue that HE is having that I will ignore at this time. If you have bigger issues to deal with in MC, don't put this one on the table at this time. I just continue to model an open door policy to my home because I think that's the mature and civil and emotionally healthy alternative. I can't control the pace of his learning to handle his emotions or any other thing. So I guess pick your battles and learn to soothe your own wounds for now. Sorry.
For perspective's sake, there are people on this board whose spouses would not let them in their new places OR tell them where these places WERE. People are weird when they get emotional.
When my WAW was in the house and I was in the apartment she hated me in our house of 18 years. She hated that I "felt so comfortable" and "made myself at home" and it would drive her nuts when I would go upstairs. Now that I am at the house and she is in the apartment, I have told her that she is free to go anywhere in the house that she would like. I have nothing to hide and she can make herself at home because it was her home. She has been up to our bedroom several times when I'm not even here and I have no problem with it.
It reminds me of how paranoid they get when they start putting passwords on things because they have something to hide. She was gone for a week and I had to go back to the apartment to get some of my stuff out of storage there and she was less paranoid and asked me to respect her privacy but she didn't seem to be as paranoid about it. Not sure how she would feel today.
It is a very strange way to act but it is probably related to all the other mental/emotional things that they are going through.
Just my opinion,
Ken
My H does that to me at times. I've dropped it. I agree it's one of the most hurtful things possible to have done to you. It lacks basic civility and seems passive-aggressive at best. That said, I've decided to reframe it as a mental and emotional issue that HE is having that I will ignore at this time. If you have bigger issues to deal with in MC, don't put this one on the table at this time. I just continue to model an open door policy to my home because I think that's the mature and civil and emotionally healthy alternative. I can't control the pace of his learning to handle his emotions or any other thing. So I guess pick your battles and learn to soothe your own wounds for now. Sorry
Thanks. Nothing to be sorry about as I think you are right on target with your thinking. In the relative scope of things, it's a minor issue and it's
my issue for feeling hurt.
I love your reframing idea of "it's an issue that my w is having right now, not me, and I will just ignore it." It's not like she's set up a security perimeter, with armed guards, around her house--we've had many lunches on her porch and many many good convos there too.
I also agree about modeling the open door policy at my home. I continue to do that.
I agree about w's closed-door policy lacking civility and I've stopped trying analyze why she is doing that. In fact, I don't even want to ask her for her reasons and they likely based on her feelings rather than facts anyway.
I'm just going to let this one go, I think, and watch if she comes around.
I have always taken responsibility for my own feelings, and always very careful in my language when approaching things, and use "I" statements, as suggested, never blaming. I use a lot of "I understand if you/may be feeling/--I give a lot of benefit of the doubt and "perhapses" so that there's no convicting my spouse and allows room for the possibility that I am wrong.
Recently during a discussion that was heating up, I used an "I" statement to take the heat out of what was going on, and he burst out, "YOU FEEL, YOU FEEL, it's all about YOU!".
I was shocked and also felt it was very unfair. So it can backfire sometimes, no matter how conscientious you are
Mettaphorica
I stumbled on this boundaries thread and was wondering if someone could help with this issue as I think it might be a boundary thing, but not sure.
W and I have been in MC for about 3 months now, we're still separated and she's not yet committed to working on our marriage, though we have resolved many issues in MC.
During exchanges of our son I've been inviting her into my apartment now for nearly 3 and a half months. She even had lunch here once. During that whole time she has not once let me in her house during a pickup/dropoff. I feel disrepected by that act, somehow. That she lets friends and family enter her house, but not me.
Is this a boundary issue and can you think of a nice way for me to state it? I don't see any enforcement possibility if she just doesn't care. I don't want to do something retaliatory like not letting her my place anymore...that seems childish.
It is not a boundary. It is her choice about letting you in her home. Respect that. It is your choice to let her in your home. If she was entering your home without being invited, and it bother you, you should set a boundary. Boundaries define how you will respond when she enters YOUR space and are enforceable. My X was showing up to my place unannounced with the kids to "Get things". I set the boundary that this was not acceptable to me and she needs to call first. See the difference?
I stumbled on this boundaries thread and was wondering if someone could help with this issue as I think it might be a boundary thing, but not sure.
W and I have been in MC for about 3 months now, we're still separated and she's not yet committed to working on our marriage, though we have resolved many issues in MC.
During exchanges of our son I've been inviting her into my apartment now for nearly 3 and a half months. She even had lunch here once. During that whole time she has not once let me in her house during a pickup/dropoff. I feel disrepected by that act, somehow. That she lets friends and family enter her house, but not me.
Is this a boundary issue and can you think of a nice way for me to state it? I don't see any enforcement possibility if she just doesn't care. I don't want to do something retaliatory like not letting her my place anymore...that seems childish.
It is not a boundary. It is her choice about letting you in her home. Respect that. It is your choice to let her in your home. If she was entering your home without being invited, and it bother you, you should set a boundary. Boundaries define how you will respond when she enters YOUR space and are enforceable. My X was showing up to my place unannounced with the kids to "Get things". I set the boundary that this was not acceptable to me and she needs to call first. See the difference?
Agree with R2C.
Puppy
I love this thread & have read it a couple of time.
So I'm resurrecting it to ask the big guns for help. H & put all of our cards on the table today, I'm 99% sure it was the right thing to do.
Please let me know if I set up boundaries without being demanding, and gave a timeline without issuing an ultimatum.
The convo was emotional & broke several DB rules, but considering our roles were very reversed I was never sure how to put DB into play, anyway.
Tell me what you think. Link in siggie.
thanks.
i have to admit, this is the toughest thing for me to do.
because setting boundaries is giving h permission to walk away.
but then again, i can see myself delivering the boundary in a condescending way that would just make any person want to walk away from me. :P
"i need a man with a spine and doesn't run to mommy and daddy when the going gets tough. grow a pair!"
"i don't feel loved by you when you choose to love your mommy more than you love me."
"i won't make love to someone who can't rip themselves away from their mother's breast".
"i need to protect myself from something you initiated (d) so don't try and manipulate me into taking less than what i am entitled to. if you were in my shoes, you'd do the same."
ok. i think my examples are fight-picking and not boundary setting.
i'm really bad at this.
Space, time, no pressure all is good. If she is having a affair it is bad - she keeps feeding her in-love feelings, you lose self-esteem and your family loses.
Boundaries about your wife spending time, money, love, affection, energy, and family resources on another man. Boundaries are about her behavior. A boundary is not a ultimatum, it's not pressure and not a push. It's a choice on how you let someone else treat you.
Never bluff with your marriage. Only file if divorce is something you're actually willing to do.
To me, that's the beauty of boundaries, or -- as I like to call them -- "My Boundaries of Personal Integrity." Only YOU know what they are, but they should be a very short list; your "dealbreakers," as it were . . . those things that you, as a person with your values, morals and ethics, simply CANNOT ABIDE.
And this is how it works, in practical application: If you decide that "I will not live in an open marriage," and you state that as a boundary to a cheating spouse, and if that drives them away from you, and toward the other person? Well, then that's THEIR CHOICE, and them cheating -- and staying with me -- wasn't an option for me anyway, based on my own authenticity and values, so what have I lost?
All I've lost in that instance is something that I could not have abided anyway.
"You must choose between her or me" is an ULTIMATUM. It's about THEM.
Boundaries should be about YOU -- "I will not live in an open marriage." Or maybe for you it's "I"m not willing to try this marriage with you again with some good marriage counselling." It's then up to the other person to decide what to DO with that information you've now shared with them, so seriously.
Puppy
bumping this thread for some newbies.
Could use some help here. I'm working on setting boundaries for my H who is having a emotional and physical relationship with an OW. He has admitted it, said he is not sorry for doing it and continues to "date" her.
More of my story below:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2041440#Post2041440It seems like every time I talk to him about our relationship I have a hard time staying calm and things don't go well. Is it OK to set a boundary in a letter instead?
Here is the boundaries template:
Remember: Fewer words = bigger impact.
When you lie to me. (describe spouses behavior.)
I feel disrespected. (or use what feeling best describes how you feel.)
(Don't use the word you, takes on the connotation you are blaming him, this is all about behavior.)
I want the lies to stop.
If you continue to lie to me
I will consider all my options, including D(take action).
In your case:
In person, while hold eye contact, in a calm voice:
When you are involved with another woman while still married to me, I feel disrespected. I want all contact to stop. If you continue to contact her or lie to me I will consider all my options, including D.
Latest Boundary:
Lately I’ve been paying several expenses for the kids that I would appreciate help with:
I gladly send you $XXX.xx each month to help cover expenses for the kids, even though they are with me 50% of the time. I suggest spending that money wisely. I am sorry you feel it is OK to pay ALL of these expenses, and then expect me to pay you without any PRIOR discussions or agreements with me. I also pay many expenses for the kids.
As our divorce agreement clearly states, we need to discuss major parental decisions. This includes money. You are free to spend your money as you see fit, but not mine.
I require PRIOR discussions and agreements before paying any expenses. If we BOTH agree that it is a needed expense, then we can BOTH write checks to the appropriate recipient.
It is time for you to step up and start co-parenting. I stand ready.
Enjoy the rest of your day!
I think this is your biggest problem is that you present these boundaries and he tries to argue with you...
Just tell them you need this and invite him to cooperate. If he refuses you tell him "OK" and you start packing his things and show him the door.
He isn't taking your boundaries seriously because YOU don't.
You have made your boundaries clear but he keeps arguing about them and humming and hawing and you get more upset...
Just show him you mean business so he takes you SERIOUSLY..
Sorry, but i don't buy a word he's saying to you... he's a good talker, but what he's DOING is saying something much louder and much more offensive.
Put a list of boundaries up here so we can help you make them clear...
But you need to be prepared to back these up if he crosses them...
Did you know FaceBook is THE NUMBER ONE software product used to conduct affairs today on the internet?
If you want my advice
a. All accounts, usernames, and passwords are turned over to you - no argument
b. He closes his facebook account - no argument
c. He starts reading you assign to him daily - 25 pp a day - no argument
etc
If he refuses this stuff, go out, get some boxes and start packing his things... do NOT argue with him - ACT to show him you are serious...
This is the thing is that TALK is CHEAP... if he thinks all you will do is nag him when he crosses a boundary he's going to keep doing it... seriosly...
Violation of Boundary -> Panic Attack -> Promise to never do it again ->
^^^
|
That cycle never ENDS
he is gonna keep doing it and doing it until you break the cycle and do something to show him you are serious
You may want to add a boundary about his buddy too
a. Assert yourself with friends who encourage you to exit the marriage - ask them to STOP the negativity or LEAVE
You CAN make that a boundary.. If he says no... start packing him up
What do you do with a spouse who mostly respects your boundaries but is boundaryless themselves and resort to ultimatums and threats?
What do you do with a spouse who mostly respects your boundaries but is boundaryless themselves and resort to ultimatums and threats?
I keep doing the right thing.
I listen. I observe.
I think about what they say.
Can I translate their statement to a boundary?
I do not react. When I have decided what the best response is, I take the appropriate action.
Can you supply us with a couple ultimatums and threats? We can come up with suggested responses...
He sent me an email today saying if my lawyer didn't contact his in 24 hrs he would file. (it's in my other thread) I responded that I met one a couple weeks ago I didn't like and have an appt with another one.
He's flipped into his borderine tendencies due to our current stessful situation and the fact that he hasn't had sx in 5 days.
Do you think a healthy R can be had with a boundaryless person?
He sent me an email today saying if my lawyer didn't contact his in 24 hrs he would file. (it's in my other thread) I responded that I met one a couple weeks ago I didn't like and have an appt with another one.
My suggested response:
"Do what you feel you must do. I cannot control you, nor do I care to. I have to do what's best for me," (and -- if applicable -- "and our children"), and I won't be rushed. For someone who's so cocksure of himself, you may want to ask yourself why you're pushing so much."
Puppy
He sent me an email today saying if my lawyer didn't contact his in 24 hrs he would file.
Ok its a threat. He can file if he chooses. Once you let the threats stop influencing you they lose their power.
Agree with him. He can't disagree if you agree. "OK, H. Go ahead and file, my L won't have it ready in 24 hrs."
What do you do with a spouse who mostly respects your boundaries but is boundaryless themselves and resort to ultimatums and threats?
You learn the fine DB art of "I'm sorry you feel that way," and you tell them to "do what you feel you have to do," and you -- as someone noted above -- instead do "The Right Thing to Do."
It also depends on what their stated consequences are, and what your options are -- Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats (the classic business "SWOT" exercise). Some hands you hold are stronger than others, and sometimes you have to acquiesce to even a poorly-stated ultimatum, if your options are less than desireable.
Puppy
So my response was a little pansyish. I was stalling for time as I know when he gets in these "snits" he's not thinking clearly and is likely to do something rash. I have a lawyer ready to go - I didn't feel the need to tell him. I also know there is a 6 mos lag in my county for required mediation when chidlren are involved unless both parties waive it.
However, this is not a healthy M. I need him to stop with the threats or move on. Help me get there. The yelling, name calling and silent treatment stopped with boundaries. I can't seem to stop the threats.
The yelling, name calling and silent treatment stopped with boundaries. I can't seem to stop the threats.
This is how he copes when he feels out of control. People feel in control when they have choices and can decide for themselves. "If that is what you think is best for you then do it." When you argue/defend he feels like you are deciding. Let his problems be his problems.
"If that is what you think is best for you then do it." When you argue/defend he feels like you are deciding.
If I say that, he will view it as a challenge, which will prompt him to move forward. His self esteem is so low (which I can't figure out why other then it stems back to childhood)that he gets defensive very easily. When he gets in these moods, I try to steer clear until they pass. Thus my effort to stall with my reply.
How can someone be defensive if you agree with them?
I understand
You are right
Do what you need to do
That's your choice
If you feel that way then I understand
How about "if you feel you need to move that quickly I can't control that but I won't have a lawyer that soon"
No "but"
If you feel that is what you need to do then I understand.
When he presses/threatens me again I will do that. Maybe he'll just go file. It's out of my control, but I"m not going to be rushed into this very serious issue re our M.
LRT,
Do you think a healthy R can be had with a boundaryless person?
Not at all.
LRT,
Do you think a healthy R can be had with a boundaryless person?
Not at all.
I agree with G on that.
So what do I do with a boundaryless person?
Model healthy behaviour. When he sees how boundaries work on him he will hopefully start use them. You might have to point out the behavior that is hurting your M several times.
I'll need to do some reading. I haven't thought about this aspect of H before.
LRT,
So what do I do with a boundaryless person?
Is he willing to read helpful books? Go to IC?
When he reads self-help books he points out to me all the things I'm doing wrong. He cannot seem to acknowledge his own issues. So I can't imagine he'd go to an IC unless I made that a condition or boundary or whatever that would be.
I'm tired.
LRT,
When he reads self-help books he points out to me all the things I'm doing wrong. He cannot seem to acknowledge his own issues. So I can't imagine he'd go to an IC unless I made that a condition or boundary or whatever that would be.
Good Lord!
Why am I not surprised?
Hang in there. Sometimes that's
all one can do...for now.
Peace,
Just wanted to say thanks. H is seemingly coming out of his current funk faster than usual and I think it had something to do with me standing firm with my boundaries. I'm sure I didn't say/do things perfectly, but they seem to have stopped the ranting. This time.
LRT,
Do you think a healthy R can be had with a boundaryless person?
Not at all.
The moral of the story is that the boundaries swing both ways.
The moral of the story is that the boundaries swing both ways.
Are you saying if I continue to enforce my boundaries that he will develop some of his own?
Here's one I have trouble with. When he's in these funks and I try to call him he doesn't answer the phone. If I leave a msg he doesn't return my call. It drives me crazy. I feel a strong urge to call again. What is best?
You are the best one to come up with consequences... They are specific to your situation.
YOU know what you can do better than any of us.
Consequences are pretty much anything that causes your husband's life more difficulty.
You want to minimize the convenience of separation...
Get a call from the W while I am having lunch with my buddy...Anyway I didn't answer, she then sent a text saying its important, so of course i thought something with the kids, I stepped outside and called her. It had to do with health ffing insurance. I wanted to tell her not to tell me something is urgent unless at has to do with you or the kids in trouble, but I kept all that in told her I would handle the insurance issue and left it at that.
Why didn't you tell her?
You don't have to mean or argumentative when setting a boundary which is what you wanted to do there, it sounded like it anyways.
Sounds like to me, that when she sends a text to you and says its important, important to you means it has to do with the kids, important to her however may mean many different things. So.... you let her know otherwise she'll continue to do this and you will continue to complain about it.
It's ok to ask for what you want.
"Wife from now on, when you text something and say that it's important and need me to call you back asap, you make it sound like an emergency, something that has to do with the kids. An example is this health insurance issue, while important, not something that has to be discussed right at that moment. Important to me means something about the kids, definitely contact me about the kids. As for the health insurance, you could have actually just texted me that this was concerning the health insurance and let me know what it was you needed to contact me about. Please remember this for the future. Thank you."
and that's it.
You're not pissy, moody, angry, argumentative, you're just telling her straight what you want and not holding it in.
^^
start from the beginning