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Posted By: NoLongerHere BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 04:06 AM
Hi all -

Starting a new thread. For those who were following my last thread and giving advice, thank you.

Tonight went well. I stood my ground. Responded as little as possible. She eventually agreed.

She balked at a lot of it, went back and forth, tried to "problem solve" with me, and I stuck to the conditions. Topped it off by giving her a rental application for a nearby apartment.

She said, if it means that much to me, then she'll do it. Admitted to only a few dates. She's not giving up that much. Aked me why it mattered, and I told her she's still my wife for now, and I will not share her.

And the kicker was, she didn't want to lose my respect and friendship.

When she repeated this later, in a general context, I told her, I don't know what to tell you about that.

She wanted to chat more after that. We watched a little TV together, not too long, then I told her goodnight.

Goodnight all -
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 05:31 AM
I subsequently mentioned to W that I felt like I needed to talk to this guy myself. She said that wasn't neccessary, that it was easily done, and that she wouldn't give me the phone number anyway.

Then she apologized.

I've tracked this guy down on Facebook now. So now I'm torn - do I send him a message myself?
Posted By: Sara Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 06:43 AM
That is totally your call. Does OM have a wife? Many of them back off big time if the wife is about to find out. Affairs thrive in secrecy. They are like bats in darkness.
Posted By: rukiddinme Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 07:14 AM
you're a good man BillM.

do not let her or anyone make you feel any different.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 12:40 PM
Bill,

Sounds like you handled the situation well. Calm and all business is the approach, and it sounds like you did that. Now, the hard part, enforcing the boundary you set if she tests you - and I will not be surprised if she does.

Great that you did not cave on her question about losing your respect for her. Gives her something to think about, and shows you will speak your mind truthfully.

On whether to contact OM, like Sara said, that's your call. Just be careful if your W pushes back on proving to you she ended whatever was going on. If OM is M'd, a short note letting him know you know and to stop ALL contact with your W, or you will let his W know.

Keep in mind, your W, not you, is the one who breached your trust. So, she has to earn your trust back. Without full transparency, not sure she's serious.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 01:11 PM
Thank you guys. You all helped me do this right.

This guy doesn't have a W. I thought it would be a good step to take to show W and this guy I'm not a fool and that I'm standing up for what's mine. Is there a downside to this I don't see?

This is the simple message I have in mind:



Hello - I'm going to make this short and as clear as I can.

Stay away from (wife's name). Do not call her. Do not text her. Do not contact her on the internet.

I can't imagine what kind of man you are who would want to be with another man's wife but IT STOPS NOW. Stay away from my wife.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 01:21 PM
Bill,

What is it you want to accomplish by sending the message?

Couple of things. First, the OM is not the problem, he's a symptom of the problem.

Second, if you send this message, you will elevate the OM in importance. He isn't worth your time IMO. If you send the message, then send it, and wash your hands of him. DON'T go back to the OM issue other than to enforce the boundary.

The issue is your W.
Posted By: Esox Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 01:36 PM
The OM may be a symptom, but if Bill doesn't do something and soon, that symptom is going to be sleeping with his wife.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 01:41 PM
Quote:
The OM may be a symptom, but if Bill doesn't do something and soon, that symptom is going to be sleeping with his wife.


No doubt. My point is not that I am necessarily against him sending the message, but once it is sent, I don't see the benefit in him elevating OM's importance.

He lays down the boundary, confronts OM, then enforces the boundary if W crosses/tests.
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 01:48 PM
You could do it, but I just don't think it would do any good. The OP that gets involved with a married person with kids don't put much respect on morals or values or marriage. If he had a W, then maybe that would do something, the fear of getting caught, but you said he isn't.

I did that once, emailing the OW, and it just didn't make me feel any better. Not really any worse, just didn't do much either way.

I think it's up to your W to not contact OM.

And I almost forgot to say, you have been handling this so well!!!! I think it couldn't have worked out better. I'm so glad you didn't just move out and almost give up or whatever.
Posted By: Esox Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 02:03 PM
I agree with you giving.

I too think that Bill is handling things fine. Especially him not leaving his home. Why should he? He isn't having an affair, she is. If she is unhappy she should leave.

Frankly, I don't think I would do nearly as good a job. I would be angry and yell and do all the things that your not supposed to do.

Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 02:08 PM
Quote:
You could do it, but I just don't think it would do any good. The OP that gets involved with a married person with kids don't put much respect on morals or values or marriage. If he had a W, then maybe that would do something, the fear of getting caught, but you said he isn't.


Only benefit I see is IF Bill's W did not tell OM she was M'd (sorry if I missed that part) and the OM happens to have any moral fiber. But, if OM knew this, and was interested in becoming involved, he has no respect for a family anyway. Even then, maybe this guy's a coward and may run once confronted.

In any case, it is not worth devoting a lot of energy to. Face it, and move forward.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 02:10 PM
Quote:
I too think that Bill is handling things fine. Especially him not leaving his home. Why should he? He isn't having an affair, she is. If she is unhappy she should leave.


You know, this is one of the few things upon which I have seen virtually everyone agree. DO NOT MOVE OUT.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 03:08 PM
Thanks everyone -

To be clear, the purpose of doing this would be for me. We've talked about confidence and self-esteem. This would be taking a stand. W told me this is unneccessary - but I've been playing this her way for all this time.

On the other hand, it's also stirring the pot. It's driving emotions higher. It's calling more attention to it.

Yeah, this guy knows my W is married - he came to our 10-year anniversery party. I shook his hand and talked to him. This is the first W had seen him too since high school, although they had been talking on FB. Shortly after she went down to the bay area to see her friends, and when she came back (you guys remember how she was all angry when she returned), she asked for D the next day.

So, about the conversation -

Yeah, the whole way this things transpired was, we had the initial conversation, I went off into the other room. She called into me, do you want to talk about this? So I went in and that's when she went through all these scenarios.

She started talking about me moving out, I just said "This is not about me moving out." She asked how the kids are going to get to school, I said, they can take the bus. She said, But the bus comes at 7:20 or something like that, I said no, it comes at 8:17, I checked the schedule. She looked at me and said, you've been a busy beaver, haven't you?

Then at some point she said, "I'm not willing to do anything right now," so I said, make up your mind quickly and walked off - she said, you can move out any time you want. At some point I came back and gave her the rental application.

I went back into my room, then she came in and agreed.

Yeah, she did say, there's no way you can enforce this - then she said, I'm going to have to give you my word. This, my continined friendship and respect for her, seems to mean a lot to her. But it leaves a lot of space open.

She also said that, she went for divorce so quickly when she realized she was attracted to this man, because that signaled to her something wrong or some such - somebody paying attention to her while I was working, being distant etc.

After all this, she wanted to talk about the book she's been reading, etc. Chatting.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 03:11 PM
Thanks everyone for the support and encouragement.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 03:39 PM
Bill,

Its your sitch, but I would be REAL uncomfortable with "you just have to trust me" to end whatever was going on or was about to. That's BS.

She should earn your trust back. First step is ending contact with scumbag AND proving it to you. Transparency.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 05:00 PM
Yeah, I understand that.

Trying to problem-solve in my head on this one. Asking her to show me her FB friend list, or something like this. I'm not quite sure how to cover all the bases on this one. Thinking about it.
Posted By: Greek Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 05:17 PM
Yep, I'm with GIMA. She has to prove things at this point.
Greek
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 07:05 PM
So while I work that out - here's my next question.

DR says that in the case of OM - figure out what's attractive about this person. W made the statement, here's someone what wanted to talk to her and pay her attention.

So, how do I do that and at the same time, distance, not spend time chatting with her, etc? I've got two conflicting things here.

As much time as I spent at home being miserable this weekend, when she got home I wasn't there - out GALing. Spent time with my buddy - he wanted to go to - you guessed it - Guitar Center, so we went to the other one in the area. Then we went to Hooters - and I chose that only because it's a VERY atypical place for me to go. Had a secret chuckle when I told W about that.

But I need to figure out now how to make W feel like I'm paying her attention without pursuing, without making her feel like things are "OK" - and she does seem to seek me out now to talk.

Thanks guys - Bill
Posted By: Stronger Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 07:20 PM
I think that's a common problem here, conflicting actions.

What does your gut tell you to do?

I would say at home, when you see her, be genuiune and see how her days was. But I wouldn't call and text her a lot and I wouldn't necessarily share with her what I'm doing when out and who I'm doing it with.....

In terms of the OM, I would just let him know that you know about him and don't consider him much of an issue.
Posted By: GoBison Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 07:29 PM
So why did you tell her where you were at? Couldn't you just say you where out with a friend and leave it at that.

Quote:
This, my continined friendship and respect for her, seems to mean a lot to her.


Quote:
So, in terms of concequences. The thing she's talked about worrying most about is "losing me".


If this is true then she will have to be the one that comes to you. Her going off to another man will not keep your friendship. If she is afraid to lose you pulling away will motivate her to come to you.

Really look at what the other man has that she was wanting. Is it his strength and confidence? Or is it to have someone to talk to?

You stood up to her. Being too friendly now will only make you look weak and she is not looking for you to be weak she wanted you to stand up to her and she is only going to test you.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 08:06 PM
I agree with both Stronger and GoBison.

As far as how you show her you want to talk to her, I think what she is probably saying is that she doesn't feel like you are LISTENING to her. She probably does not feel she has your undivided attention when she talks to you.

It is NOT pursuit. It is putting down everything else when she talks to you and listening. Not trying to fix her problem - she does not want that, she just wants to tell you. So, look her in the eyes, ask an occasional open ended question to keep her talking and to show your interest.

Try that a few times and see what happens.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/08/09 09:36 PM
Thank you guys. This sounds right to me.

Just talked to W on the phone, the L wanted to confirm that her L has subbed out. She's struggling today - she said that she doesn't like it when I'm mad at her - "don't like it at all."

Funny that we're going through all this, and she's shaken by me being mad at her.

I wasn't sure what to say - I didn't want to say sorry, it's ok, whatever. I just said, well, we'll get through it.

She asked to go to the movies with a neighbor tonight - she does this every Tuesday. And yes, I know there's no funny business about it.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/09/09 02:15 AM
Don't blame you for having the anger. Just make sure it is not the basis for your decision (I don't think it is). Also, when dealing with her, I suspect you will get more effective results if you are cool, calm, collected and all business.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/09/09 03:19 AM
Gaaaaa - strange night.

Well, from continued monitoring (which I feel I need to stop), discovered that W was where she said she was this weekend, didn't actually see this guy, and most recently that it was sad that he wasn't going to "see her for awhile."

So, I came home. W was very short with me. I asked her if she'd broken if off, she said yes, but it was kind of silly because there wasn't much to it. I asked if she blocked him on FB, and she said no, and she wasn't going to do it. I said then she needed to move out. She said no.

Then she said that I was trying to remove her support system. I said no, that she's having an affair and it needs to stop. That I saw this guy as responsible for what' going on. So, she said, no, do you know what this was? We went to the king Tut exhibit, and some art show. She said, he took me out a couple of times, and she'd already called it off anyway because she wasn't going to let it go any further until we'd figured out our situation.

So I said, do I need to contact him myself? And she said that would make her very angry, and if I wanted things to get nasty, then...

And that's when the kids showed up. So that kind of petered out.

Then I went back into the kitchen, and she said, I don't want to be at odds with you - and this kind of turned into a R discussion at that point. She said, I've worked on this so hard, and I said, when are you talking about, and she said, since the last seperation, for the last 10 years.

She said, you have so many good qualities - I could have loved you forever, if not for the intimacy. I said, we've had sex regularly, etc., and she said that's not it. I said tell me, and she can't put it into words. Don't know, more passion, talking more, etc. She also said, she knew it from the beginning. We connected on so many levels except for this - and then she said, but she's changing, I'm changing, etc.

This is a little muddy in my head I guess. But she said that, though it seemed enough for me, it wasn't enough for her. And then she said, that when this is over I'll see, I'll meet someone better for me, someone more like my sisters, but she's not like that, she's not a housewife, she's not this or that - she said, "I'm weird like my mom."

Well, then we all ate dinner.

Then she asked for the checkbook, and this is when I told her I'd opened up my own checking account. So... she pushed me into another room.

What does this mean? You're on MY checking account... are you going to be hiding money? What are you doing?

So I said, this is going to have to happen. I put some money in there from a stock sale, so it's there if we have to go get an apartment or something. Soon I'll set it up for my direct deposit, and have the car payment auto-withdrawn from there. The bills will get paid, everything will be fine. But this needs to happen.

And she said... you're right. We're going to have to do this, she hadn't thought of that yet, but she's going to go get me off her checking account, we'll both pay the bills out of our two accounts. And we're going to have to talk about dividing things up, what we're going to do about the house, etc. So talked about selling the house, no she wants to keep it for the boys - so I said, then you'd have to buy me out, etc. etc.

So after awhile, I said, talk to me about something else. And we just talked. Now she's gone to the movies.

I said, I miss the movies, and she commented that I'd only ever gone with her. We talked about maybe going to a movie together.

I am sad. I'm not angry, I'm not sick, I'm not scared.

I am sad because I can see myself being at peace with all this.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/09/09 03:32 AM
Bill,

Sounds like you did very well with a tough conversation...again.

Quote:
I am sad because I can see myself being at peace with all this.


Yeah. I know. I have felt the same way.

Quote:
She said, you have so many good qualities - I could have loved you forever, if not for the intimacy. I said, we've had sex regularly, etc., and she said that's not it. I said tell me, and she can't put it into words. Don't know, more passion, talking more, etc.


This is a BIG deal. I suspect what she's talking about is her perception you did not let her completely into your being, your soul - your fears, dreams, worries. Intimacy is really bearing your soul to someone who has teh power to hurt you like no one else. It is a privilege you bestow on only THE closest to you. How was this part of your R?
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/09/09 03:58 AM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
This is a BIG deal. I suspect what she's talking about is her perception you did not let her completely into your being, your soul - your fears, dreams, worries. Intimacy is really bearing your soul to someone who has teh power to hurt you like no one else. It is a privilege you bestow on only THE closest to you. How was this part of your R?


Early when we were dating, she sat me down and said that if I didn't open up to her more she was going to walk. I guess she's always wanted more of me.

She's noted at times that I seem to be happy that she's just in the house with me.

I guess the best answer to your question is that she's said that she's felt lonely.

Yeah GIMA I suppose that's the heart of the matter.

I'm sorry, I can't stop crying right now. That's all for the moment.
Posted By: Sara Re: BillM's new thread - 09/09/09 04:53 AM
You don't have to go down this road. There is an alternative. You could make your marriage better. Your wife is not having an affair. You don't really need to kick her out of the house for having a male friend on FB.

Do you want to improve your marriage? Go to the website, www.helpourmarriage.org and read about the four stages of marriage. You'll know which stage you're in. Look for a Retrouvaille weekend near you. There are a lot offered this month and next. Ask her to go with you. It is not marriage counseling. It is more of a weekend retreat for couples to work on their communication skills with each other.

Retrouvaille saves marriages. But it does more than that. It helps you to move from an unhappy marriage to a happy one. It worked for me, and several other people on this website. You owe it to your boys to try to have a happy marriage and not just give up when the going gets tough.
Posted By: Deep Re: BillM's new thread - 09/09/09 05:19 AM
Sara's right, from what you posted, I think Retrouvaille would help.

Just my personal opinion, I think a lot of what your W is going through could fall under the WAS category of "crying for help". I could relate that to a lot of what my W told her she went through. That the way things were going were just not good enough any more. There has to be more to life than a "stable" M. That there was so much she felt was wrong about the M over time but she accepted it as part of life. How could she feel something for someone else (she never thought it possible), therefore, we had lost our connection - leading to the classic "I love you but ...".

There are elements of MLC there, and OM, whether as a "special friend" or outright lover just helps so much to make things seem so much worse and distort history and reality. In my sitch, besides OM, W had friends who went through serious illness, which made the whole issue of living for the moment and feelings that life must have more to offer ever more pressing.

From what I've seen, you and her both need time. She needs to find herself and her balance again. You need to try and uuderstand and support this, while maintaining some boundaries.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/09/09 12:32 PM
Bill,

You have two choices. First, you can give up. I don't think you want that, nor is it what I would want.

Second, change this. Start opening up to her little by little. When its just you two, tell her your fears, dreams, what makes you happy. Just tell her what is in your head. She wants, and NEEDS, to know.

On the OM issue, you have said your piece. Now back off that for a while. Keep your eyes open though.

Come on, man, its not too late.
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/09/09 12:55 PM

Quote:
She said, you have so many good qualities - I could have loved you forever, if not for the intimacy. I said, we've had sex regularly, etc., and she said that's not it. I said tell me, and she can't put it into words. Don't know, more passion, talking more, etc.


Personally I think this a bunch of crap. She's having an EA, and I wouldn't take this stuff seriously. More than half of what they spout is crap. And she's having at least an EA if she won't take him off her FB. If not more. She's admitted to dating the guy!

I can tell from what you say you talk with her more than any other guy I've ever met!!! And yeah, passion after a couple years has its ups and downs; that's the reality of a mature long-term relationship. When it's in a cooled-down phase; you should not be going out in search of EA or PA.

Retroville would be good if she would agree to it, but I think if she won't end it, which by her FB thing she won't, then she should either move out or buy you out as you suggested. Let her make that choice.

I do think you've been handling this like a rock. You sound super strong and confident when dealing with her; it took me a year or something to get to where you are. ((((((Bill))))))
Posted By: Coach Re: BillM's new thread - 09/09/09 01:05 PM
Quote:
She said, you have so many good qualities - I could have loved you forever, if not for the intimacy. I said, we've had sex regularly, etc., and she said that's not it. I said tell me, and she can't put it into words. Don't know, more passion, talking more, etc. She also said, she knew it from the beginning. We connected on so many levels except for this - and then she said, but she's changing, I'm changing, etc.


intimacy = connection = passion

do some research on what intimacy means to a woman
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/09/09 01:58 PM
Well, I cried a lot. By the time she got home, I was just sitting quitely / dozing in my little room here. She asked me if I wanted to watch TV.

She said that she's not sure how to be around me, one day I'm accusing her and angry, the next day I'm sitting next to her watching TV. She said that she freaked out at the though of moving out, can't envision a scenarion where we're not all living in the same house together. She said that the checking account thing shook her, that she felt that I didn't trust her, which blindsided her I guess. She was tearful but didn't fully cry.

She said there are so many reasons to stay but they're not the right reasons. (??)

So - this isn't good DBing guys, I know, you can whack me. I JUST DON"T KNOW how it broach this "intimacy" thing. I asked her if I could put my arm around her, she said no. So I took my feet again (i know guys), and rubbed them, then I stroked her hair for awhile. Both of these things she was relucant to accept, then she said "I should tell you how much I like this."

See, I KNOW she likes it. I don't want to pursue or challange her boundaries, but in terms of connecting with her - I need more tools.


She also said earlier in the evening that she's be open to counciling but we'd want different things out of it - she'd want closure, not reconciliation. I don't know how that works, going to C with different goals.

Maybe I will bring up Retroville.

OK have to get ready for work. I feel like my work life is falling apart at this point. At some point taking care of me needs to include taking care of my career. Didn't sleep well again. Dumb dog threw up in the bed, then woke up again later and didn't go back to sleep. I'm so ready to feel normal again.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/09/09 01:59 PM
Thank you everyone for the responses. Research on intimacy, that's a good idea.
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/09/09 02:22 PM

Quote:
She said that she's not sure how to be around me, one day I'm accusing her and angry, the next day I'm sitting next to her watching TV.
She's having an EA or PA or both, filed for divorce, and you have the nerve to be angry sometimes??? Shame on you.


Quote:
She said that she freaked out at the though of moving out, can't envision a scenarion where we're not all living in the same house together.
That's reality when you get a divorce.




Quote:
She said that the checking account thing shook her, that she felt that I didn't trust her, which blindsided her I guess. She was tearful but didn't fully cry.


She's been on dates, having an EA and/or PA; filed for D, etc. She has done everything on earth to make you not trust her. If she wants trust, she should try earning it in someway. I hope you didn't comfort her over this. Geez.


Quote:
She said there are so many reasons to stay but they're not the right reasons. (??)
Yeah, kids, family, loyalty, marriage vows she took; all wrong reasons. Only in the mind of someone having an EA/PA imho.

Research intimacy??? I wouldn't waste your time when your W is having an A!!! It's time to let her face consequences & reality, which she clearly doesn't seem to have done. I throw my hands up over the stupid massages and rubbing her hair. Stop rewarding her!!!! She doesn't deserve it!!!! Instead of researching intimacy, you should focus on your kids instead, not on your adulterous wife!!! And then spend time with your music, friends, etc. Yeah, some on your job too.
Posted By: Esox Re: BillM's new thread - 09/09/09 05:43 PM
Bill,

It seems that your wife has some definite issues with what you think of her. She wants to destroy your family and yet wants you to still be her friend. The next time she spouts that I suggest you reply with the following: "I am your husband, not your friend. I don't have people that lie and cheat on me as friends. If we divorce I will never be your friend. We will just be two people co-parenting children."

I think you need to destroy her little fantasy where she divorces you, takes your kids, your house, your money, moves in a new man, and you are there to support her in her new life as he friend. YUCK!
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/09/09 06:02 PM
Originally Posted By: Esox

I think you need to destroy her little fantasy where she divorces you, takes your kids, your house, your money, moves in a new man, and you are there to support her in her new life as he friend. YUCK!
Exactly!!! And the foot rubbing and the like is not going to do that. If she's having an A, which she is judging by the refusal to defriend the guy (feel like a teen typing that), but I think you need to pull way back. If you still are interested in having the marriage anyway. If you just want to divorce and be friends with her, then keep doing what you're doing....
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/09/09 06:15 PM
She is in a fantasy world right now. I heard many of the same things from my W:

-We will be friends and great parents
-We can do this civily, "like adults"
-The kids will be fine

I think you can convey a tough love image of I cannot stop you if you want a D, but I do not see us as friends in that process. I don't want that and I do not agree with your decision to D, but if that's what you need to be happy, I can't stop you, and I won't.

What she needs to hear is that you cannot stop her, but you will not assist in your own execution. She also needs to know this is HER decision, which she will have to own. She has not thought through all the logistics/consequences. Sometimes, when the WAS has to start dealing with the reality, that may bring them out of the fog.

And, no more pursuit. PERIOD. No foot rubs, touching, or doing solely for her. This is NOT helping you. It WILL drive her away.

Unfortunately, this is tough love time. In doing that, YOU are being the stronger one, and right now, you have to be.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/09/09 07:06 PM
Yeah I know guys. I do. I messed up with this.

Met with my manager today, she wants to know how long I'm going to need with this. Wasn't a good conversation. Work pressure on the rise.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/09/09 07:11 PM
Bill,

One of the things my C told me early on was to take control of the areas of my life over which I had control. One of those areas was my job. You have to take control of your work. The alternative is not pretty.

What I did initially (b/c I was a wreck for the first few weeks) was to make myself not think about the M issues. I gave myself seom time off from those problems and threw myself into my work. Get REALLY busy at the office. It will occupy your mind. You will have to make yourself do this at first.

As for the feet rubbing, cut yourself some slack. Just stop doing it. Recognize it for what it is...pursuit, plain and simple. I'm not slapping you around, I'm just trying to let you know I do not see this as helping you achieve your goal.

Eyes on the prize man. That means stopping the pursuit and working on you. Getting your work under control falls under "working on you." You have to have stability from some aspect of your life, and work is a great source for that.
Posted By: Esox Re: BillM's new thread - 09/09/09 07:17 PM
It would be interesting if you did manage to get fired. I wonder what that would do to your wife's fantasy where you support her and other man while they find themselves with the help of your money. . .


Seriously though, concentrate on work if it is important to you. If not, then perhaps this is an ideal time to change careers and do what you really want with your life. Even if you make a lot less money. At least you will have some satisfaction in your life. And you will do it before you wife tries to have the court impute your income at your present salary. After that happens, if you ever lose your job and take a new one at less money, your support will be calculated at the previous higher rate . . . and you will be trapped.
Posted By: Stronger Re: BillM's new thread - 09/09/09 08:01 PM
Hi Bill
Yeah, I have to agree, she does sound sort of delusional.

And when my H was in the midst of his delusion, the one where this 24 year old co-worker was going to be with him, he would act the same way your wife is. He would say the dumbest crap...."I hope you meet someone who can take care of you so I won't have to worry about it." Seriously. I laughed. And what's worse is during this time, his stupid OW was so afraid of me she would call, text and email me that she had absolutely NO intention of being a step mom. (Unfortunately, she was not telling him that during that three week period in late December early January. But mid January, she posts on FB about her new younger and much richer boyfriend....H was singing a new tune after that.) Any-hoo.

Yes, I did start then to make it very clear, D was not going to be friendly and we weren't going to be Bruce and Demi like he seemed to have delusions of granduer over. I made it clear to him, we would co-parent and it was all or nothing with me and him. Married or people who had a child to raise together.

I don't think he believed me then. I'm pretty sure he does now.

You do need to give her a clear picture of what D would be like if she's seemingly delusional about it now.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/10/09 07:22 PM
Have not been sleeping well the last couple of days and my head is not very clear. I feel like I just want to take a break from all this now.

W said to me that she's thinking about moving out because of all the ups and downs. My first thought was "good" but I just said "OK". She later said that she wanted to avoid that if at all possible. Again, I said "OK"

She rounded up the kids for a walk last night, then asked if I wanted to go, so I did. She talked with me the whole way, I guess I mostly listened, but it was light.

Later, we sat in the same room and watched TV. We talked a little then too. I told her about my frustrations with work, etc. Again, I didn't want to think so hard about "what to do" - someone suggested trying to open up to her more, but at the same time I know I need to detach. Confusing.

She did keep complaining last night about how her back was hurting, and that she was going to need to go to her massage therapist friend to work it out. I said nothing.

She also asked if I wanted to go to the zoo with her and the boys on Sunday. I agreed, but not sure if I should. She's going to visit her friend with the newborn Friday eve/Sat - yeah, it's legit.

She's still on FB with this guy. I've said my piece on this. This particular piece is in limbo now.

I don't feel very cohesive right now - just trying to focus on work, and I need to get some freaking sleep. SUpposed to have band practice tonight, but I think I might be too tired.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/10/09 07:38 PM
First, get some sleep. Nothing's going to make sense if you don't. Call your doc and get a sleeping med if you have to.

Now,

Quote:
Later, we sat in the same room and watched TV. We talked a little then too. I told her about my frustrations with work, etc. Again, I didn't want to think so hard about "what to do" - someone suggested trying to open up to her more, but at the same time I know I need to detach. Confusing.


Detachment is getting YOU to a point of accepting, and being ok with, the worst possible scenario. It is NOT about you being cold or indifferent to your W. Be polite to her, and just be her friend right now. All the while, keep working on you being ok with D if she goes that route.

Quote:
She did keep complaining last night about how her back was hurting, and that she was going to need to go to her massage therapist friend to work it out. I said nothing.


Good. When I started reading this, I thought you were going to say you massaged her back. Good hold back.

Quote:
She also asked if I wanted to go to the zoo with her and the boys on Sunday. I agreed, but not sure if I should.


What did YOU want to do?

Quote:
She's still on FB with this guy. I've said my piece on this. This particular piece is in limbo now.


Your call, but I see this as a problem. She's admitted to you she had "dates" with this guy or at least thought about them. She tells you to trust her but she won't cut off contact. Why?

Even if nothing happened, she has told you something almost did that while not a PA was inappropriate. When things go south for her again, where do you think she's going to look?
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 01:53 AM
Quote:
I throw my hands up over the stupid massages and rubbing her hair. Stop rewarding her!!!! She doesn't deserve it!!!!


Just going back over the last few days. Yeah, I know. In those moments, feel like I can reach her. I know it's a false feeling. Crap. Seems like some sort of intimacy, connection, something would make a difference. In those moments, I think I'm making headway.

Yes, I hear you. I know it, I know it, I know it. No more.

Quote:
Detachment is getting YOU to a point of accepting, and being ok with, the worst possible scenario. It is NOT about you being cold or indifferent to your W. Be polite to her, and just be her friend right now. All the while, keep working on you being ok with D if she goes that route.


OK that's good. I'm getting there, if slowly. Honestly, I think I need to in order to function.

Quote:
Good. When I started reading this, I thought you were going to say you massaged her back. Good hold back.


I honestly felt like saying something like, too bad I can't help you out with that. But it would have been pointless.

Quote:
What did YOU want to do?

I want to go. I see it as a good opportunity to have fun, show good PMA, all that stuff. But I realize it's also feeding into her idea that we're all going to keep acting like a family.

I DON'T KNOW what's more effective - showing her what things can be like WITH me - or showing her what things can be like WITHOUT me. But - I think the real 180 would be for me to go and to be enthusiastic about it. Maybe I'm over-analyzing this.

Quote:
Your call, but I see this as a problem. She's admitted to you she had "dates" with this guy or at least thought about them. She tells you to trust her but she won't cut off contact. Why?

Even if nothing happened, she has told you something almost did that while not a PA was inappropriate. When things go south for her again, where do you think she's going to look?


Yeah I have a problem with this.
She won't cut off contact, and she refuses to move out. So my choices are to make things so uncomfortable about this that she does move out (which I've almost gotten there), or focus on DBing for the time being.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 02:00 AM
Quote:
One of the things my C told me early on was to take control of the areas of my life over which I had control. One of those areas was my job. You have to take control of your work. The alternative is not pretty.

What I did initially (b/c I was a wreck for the first few weeks) was to make myself not think about the M issues. I gave myself seom time off from those problems and threw myself into my work. Get REALLY busy at the office. It will occupy your mind. You will have to make yourself do this at first.

As for the feet rubbing, cut yourself some slack. Just stop doing it. Recognize it for what it is...pursuit, plain and simple. I'm not slapping you around, I'm just trying to let you know I do not see this as helping you achieve your goal.

Eyes on the prize man. That means stopping the pursuit and working on you. Getting your work under control falls under "working on you." You have to have stability from some aspect of your life, and work is a great source for that.


Yeah, I hear you.

I've been so burned out even before this. I mean, that was part of the problem I suppose - I'd put so much into work. Funny, I "Exceeded expectations" on my last review and now it's all fallen to pot. But yeah, I've got to dig in. And I can. It does help to get focused on something else, it really does.

When I talked to my W, she said she could pick up the slack around the house so I can work more, just tell her what I need.

Oh and I love this - she opend up a new credit card with a 0% introductory rate, and asked if we should move my lawyer's retainer to that card to avoid interest.

She mentioned yesterday that she's fighting to keep from getting depressed. Whatever.

Crazy.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 02:22 AM
I'm reading DR pages 215-219 again. What do you guys think of this?

She said she'd go to counciling for closure, not for reconciliation. We'd be going in for different agenadas. Would this be worth it? Seems counterproductive...
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 02:25 AM
I'm looking at the Retrouvaille site.

I can't imagine my wife would agree to this.

Wondering how I would approach it.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 02:58 AM
Quote:
I'm looking at the Retrouvaille site.

I can't imagine my wife would agree to this.

Wondering how I would approach it.


First, all she can say is "no."

Second, what does she have to lose. She can still file for D after Retrouvaille if she still wants to. Isn't the family worth a try?

Sara knows a lot about Retro. I would seek her out.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 03:21 AM
Well, she's already filed for divorce.

I suppose I'll find the right time to bring it up.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 03:22 AM
Sorry I missed that Bill.

Still, don't see any harm in her going.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 03:31 AM
Hey, no problem smile

Man, she's really shaken up that I opened an independent checking account. This really bothers her.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 03:43 AM
Quote:
Man, she's really shaken up that I opened an independent checking account. This really bothers her.


Let her deal with it. Don't try to fix it for her. And that goes for all the consequences of HER choice.

I'm not suggesting this out of spite. But, a little does of reality can work wonders.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 04:33 AM
Hopefully. Yeah, she took a bath and then disappeared without even saying goodnight. That's new behavior. I think this really got to her.

Good or bad??

Yeah she took back the suggestion that we put my lawyer's fees on her credit card.
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 01:01 PM
I think it's good. It's a tiny, tiny view of reality for her. I think that's a good thing. I think she does have a certain picture in her mind of how stuff is going to go, so when you put a little chink in that, it's a good thing.

Not rubbing her back was excellent. I think her comment was directed at you to get you to massage her. Good for you for not doing that. Again, she needs to get used to the fact that if you D you won't be giving her massages. A good thing. Better to just not do it than to say anything. Actions speak louder than words.

I think it's ok to go on this outing once if you think you can go, be positive, focus on the kids, and no R talk; but I wouldn't make a regular habit of it. I think she is envisioning you will keep up that kind of stuff after the D so maybe gradually stop doing those kind of activities so she might realize that will not be your plan. Be taking the kids to the zoo by yourself; have your own activities planned with the kids.

I think MC is great; but from so many people here I've seen them go to MC when there's an OP and I don't think I've ever seen positive outcomes from that. And a lot of times the MC will buy into the WAS thinking and encourage divorce, so it can even be harmful. I've read, although Sara is the one that would know, that couples that go to Retroville I don't think can have an OM or OW involved, but I'm not 100% sure on that.
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 01:05 PM

Quote:
So my choices are to make things so uncomfortable about this that she does move out (which I've almost gotten there), or focus on DBing for the time being.


By making things uncomfortable do you mean you're not massaging her or comforting her as she tries to destroy your family? I think you should be working on detaching, GALing, and focusing on your kids. DBing is crucial I think, work on changing yourself in positive ways, work on improving yourself, and being the best dad you can be. I think DBing should include a chapter on boundaries and being strong and confident. I don't think the most effective DBing occurs when one is a doormat, but when one is strong and confident.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 04:39 PM
Guys - things are not good.

W was still upset this morning. So we talked briefly - she says she's thinking about keeping her lawyer. After the events of the weekend, and learning that I opened a checking account and put money in there, she wants the lawyers to fight about things instead of us. She says we can't talk about any of this without shutting down. She says she know there are bad feelings coming out, etc.

We're farther from each other than ever now. The trust is eroding. She sees me as unpredictible right now.

I feel sick. God, I feel like I've got down exactly the wrong path. Yes, I've shown her now that we're not going to be friends. I don't know what that's gotten me.
Posted By: Coach Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 04:56 PM
Quote:
She sees me as unpredictible right now.


That's awesome news! This isn't going according to her plan. She expected you to just roll over and take it. Time for her to put on the BGPs. Show her you won't be friends if she divorces you - her choice. You want to be her husband ,lover and friend but that only happens if you are married.
It's also good she is upset. Means she is conflicted. You are being watched so you need to be confident, strong and wise. You can handle it.

Cheers

ps quit assuming the worst
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 05:03 PM
OK

I tried to call her cell, to tell her I'm sick about all this. But I didn't leave a message or anything. I guess I need to stick this out.

I told her this morning that I can work with her for mediation, that she doesn't need this lawyer.

She wants to sit down this weekend and talk about how we're going to split things out. She says that she's willing to put every last of her dollars into the boys, while I'm making sounds about pushing back on support - that we should look at daycare for the boys, and let the ride the bus, so she can work vs. letting her take care of them. She's worried about me strong-arming her, and there's nobody in her corner if she gives up the lawyer and goes for mediation.

SHe wants to use the stock sale money to pay the bills. I said that's fine, I don't have an issue with that, but we should have some in reserve for contengencies. THat is, she thinks I'm making a control play to hide money.

I'll see her again tomorrow, not tonight.

I do not feel good about all this.
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 05:37 PM


Quote:
W was still upset this morning. So we talked briefly - she says she's thinking about keeping her lawyer. After the events of the weekend, and learning that I opened a checking account and put money in there, she wants the lawyers to fight about things instead of us. She says we can't talk about any of this without shutting down. She says she know there are bad feelings coming out, etc.
She's going to keep her L that supposedly filed all that stuff although she told him to do the opposite, and then he didn't give her notice of the court date? That same L? Cause that doesn't make sense.

Sounds like she's upset you're not following the script, rolling over and letting her follow her plan. I do think that's good. You haven't done anything underhanded, merely tried to protect yourself right? Nothing to feel bad about that--you should do that.

What does she mean by bad feelings coming out? Have you been mean to her or yelling at her or something or has she been acting like that with you? Then maybe Ls are a good idea. If not, then are the bad feelings just b/c you're not going along with her?



Quote:
We're farther from each other than ever now. The trust is eroding. She sees me as unpredictible right now.
You're not following her script. The trust is eroding; um I've told you this before; she's been lying to you, cheating, trying to break apart your family. She has eroded the trust in your R. If she's suggesting you opening your own account when she's already filed for D that you've eroded the trust--that is ridiculous!!!


Quote:
I feel sick. God, I feel like I've got down exactly the wrong path. Yes, I've shown her now that we're not going to be friends. I don't know what that's gotten me.
The one who's gone down the wrong path is your W. What have you done but not massage her yesterday? Open your own bank account after she filed for D? I don't get that. I think she feels more comfortable when you are following her script; but I don't see why you would want to make it more comfortable for her to break up your family?
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 05:44 PM


Quote:
She wants to sit down this weekend and talk about how we're going to split things out.

Stop calling her. Don't beg or plead with her. Do not sit down with her and decide anything this week. What's the rush? I think you should either go with a mediator or Ls to help with the process; professionals that can help you with that. I don't get the rush. Basically tomorrow she wants to do that? Personally she sounds very unstable and all over the place to me; and you're going through it now too. I strongly advise you not to do that; what does your L say about this stuff?


Quote:
She says that she's willing to put every last of her dollars into the boys, while I'm making sounds about pushing back on support - that we should look at daycare for the boys, and let the ride the bus, so she can work vs. letting her take care of them. She's worried about me strong-arming her, and there's nobody in her corner if she gives up the lawyer and goes for mediation.
It's a reality that when you are splitting up into 2 households there is almost half the money. Things do have to be economized on: like riding the bus and both spouses getting jobs. It's not that you don't love your boys as much as she does, but you are more reality-oriented than her at this point.

Quote:
THat is, she thinks I'm making a control play to hide money.
Why would she think that? Have you ever given reason to believe that?
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 05:58 PM
No, I've never given her reason to believe that.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 05:59 PM
Bill,

I don't have anything to add other than to see listen up. Stop the self pity and worry. You are getting outstanding advice from Coach and karen. I completely agree with what they are telling you.

What you choose to do with their guidance is your choice.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 06:00 PM
Bad feelings - no, no yelling or anything like that.
The confrontation we had this weekend, and the checking thing is it -

Have to go -
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 07:13 PM
OK guys, thanks. I'll cool it. I understand I must sound frantic.

Am I in a better position now to save my M?
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 07:31 PM
Quote:
Am I in a better position now to save my M?


YES, but that's not the point.

How do YOU feel for standing up for YOU?
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 07:49 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM
No, I've never given her reason to believe that.
I didn't think so. She has no logical reason for saying this stuff. I'm not sure if it's intention or not, but it sounds like she's trying to manipulate you into doing what she wants or going along with what she wants. I wouldn't let her rush you or pressure you into anything. If you're not going the L route, at least maybe look into a mediator to help with the process.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 07:56 PM
Well, it felt good to take positive action, sure.

Last night I felt strong and confident, when she was upset. She was talking about how she had paid the bills, but didn't have any money left - then said "now that you're all secretive." Later she said, technically half that money is mine, and I want pay bills with it. You can use the other half to buy that guitar. I kind of shrugged and said, I don't want to buy that.

Then she said, "you would have been really pissed if I had done that." Which, the first time we went through this, she did exactly the same thing.

Keep in mind, the bills she's talking about here includes her credit card with the L's retainer.

I don't know guys, these things felt like the right thing to do at the time.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 08:01 PM
Karen - my W hired a lawyer that apparently doesn't mediate. This is the scumbag that filed all the court dates without W's instruction, and who reportedly works to increase fees with litigation.

We went to see the L that I hired, who does collaborative divorces, and has offered to mediate.

W now says she's thinking about keeping scumbag, and doesn't have confidence in the L I hired, who she thinks will be protecting my interests.

Perhaps I need to send a note to my lawyer.

Arg.

Gotta go.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 08:09 PM
Quote:
Karen - my W hired a lawyer that apparently doesn't mediate. This is the scumbag that filed all the court dates without W's instruction, and who reportedly works to increase fees with litigation.


If this is, in fact, true (and I have my doubts), she needs to fire L and get a new one. I not only stayed in a Holiday Inn last night, but I IS a L. If her L took action w/o her consent, she shouldn't pay. Plain and simple. Your state bar association should have a fee dispute procedure she could utilize.
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 08:36 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM
Karen - my W hired a lawyer that apparently doesn't mediate. This is the scumbag that filed all the court dates without W's instruction, and who reportedly works to increase fees with litigation.

I know that there are many D L's that like to file stuff and run up hours to increase their fees. But something's hinky to me: if the L filed all that stuff which W says was the opposite of what she asked him to do, why would she keep an L? When she was upset or acting upset about how if you hadn't told her she wouldn't have know the court date, I mean why would you keep an L if that was what occurred?

Maybe this is just me, but I actually don't think I trust your W. I think you prob. need an L way more than your W does. The way she is so accusing and mistrustful of you and your motives, makes me question hers. It's like cheaters that accuse you of cheating or something. I know I may be totally off-base with that, but it's what I'm thinking.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 08:37 PM
Quote:
Maybe this is just me, but I actually don't think I trust your W.


It's not just you.
Posted By: Coach Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 08:45 PM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
Quote:
Maybe this is just me, but I actually don't think I trust your W.


It's not just you.


There's a hole in the soup.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/11/09 09:46 PM
She was very pissed at the guy, and said similar things about she shouldn't have to pay, etc.

She signed the paperwork for him to sub out, effectively she's already fired him.

I think the thing is, now she's pissed at ME.

I told her the L I hired had a list of collaberative lawyers, we could get a list, and she seemed to listen to that.

I left a message for my L, briefly explained what my W had said, and asked if she could mail this list.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/12/09 04:50 PM
Struggling this morning. Spent last night on the phone with different friends then went to bed. Think I got better sleep, took the ambien, woke up again before midnight and took a couple of xanex.

The kicker is that I know I'm waiting for her to come home today because I still miss her. I miss her a lot.

I need to figure out better ways to take care of myself.

Yeah GIMA - you said worry and self-pity - I am obsessing and making myself depressed.

I guess I need to start moving. Spend a few minutes jumping rope, take a shower, get the boys and I some breakfast. It's a nice day, maybe take the dog for a walk. Something other than sitting here with my eyes closed.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/12/09 05:13 PM
Get busy. Anything. Exercise. Wash your car.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/13/09 03:01 AM
Well, I kind of milled around, pulled some weeds, shot some baskets with my son, played a game of Jenga witht the boys, etc. I spent some time sitting quietly with my eyes closed too, kind of dozing, but I think I still have a lot of sleep to catch up on.

W came home, and wasn't sure what to do with myself. Eventually we did talk. She's trying to decide what to do about her lawyer now, sounds like she's siding on keeping him. My opening a checking account really scared her. Dammit. Anyway, she still wants to mediate... or I guess it would be collaberate... and says she doesn't want to be naive

Anyway, we did talk about what the assets and debts are, examples of how we would share custody, how we would split things. Sounds like we're both agreeable to her taking the house and me taking the retirement / investments, as a very rough start. With us both staying in the house until February.

I asked her why she wants to be around me. First, she said, for the kids, then she said, I like you, you're still my best friend. She also said that it's going to take her a long time to not think of me as her husband.

Then we took the kids out for pizza. (We're not going to the zoo tomorrow, btw).

At one point, I said I missed going to the Mexican place next door, she said me too, and I said, well we should do that. She actually agreed, paused for a second and said "we don't have to be conventional..."

So I guess I've got a date, or something like it. I feel like a crazy man, going down this path of D and still DBing. I know my family all thinks I'm a fool. Part of me wants to cut and run, thinking that getting a nice little townhouse would be good.

So, trying to figure out my next steps of DBing while all this is moving towards February.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/13/09 03:15 AM
Originally Posted By: BillM
At one point, I said I missed going to the Mexican place next door, she said me too, and I said, well we should do that. She actually agreed, paused for a second and said "we don't have to be conventional..."

So I guess I've got a date, or something like it. I feel like a crazy man, going down this path of D and still DBing.


2x4s welcome BTW, as I try to figure this out.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/13/09 03:51 AM
Bill,

I wonder if you aren't too available to her right now. It seems to me she has the best of all worlds. She gets to keep her "best friend" while D'ing that "best friend." I would pull back, not in a cold and callous manner. I would GAL my a$$ off right now. She needs to miss you, and she won't do that if you are always around as the safety net for a dinner out or whatever.

And you are still struggling with not pursuing. This,

Quote:
At one point, I said I missed going to the Mexican place next door, she said me too, and I said, well we should do that.


is pursuit.

In her eyes, nothing she cares about is going to change. She can D you and you will still be "great friends." When my W told me this, it pi$$ed me off. And, no, if we D, we will NOT be friends. Friends don't do that to one another.

It's time to stiffen your backbone man.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/13/09 05:50 AM
Yeah, thank you - I was feeling something similar about it, but my thoughts aren't clear... still trying to get my head around - she wants that intimicay, said before all this that she wants my attention. This is the way it used to be she'd ask, do you want to go out, and I'd want to stay home. I guess what I'm saying is that if I'm too available to her now, is that a 180 to how I was before?

I know that this example was pursuit - but it was also a 180. Initiating a "date", vs. my W planning it, getting the sitter, etc. And she responded positively to the idea.

I was looking for a quote posted by JamesJohn back in the old days from '03, but couldn't find it. What he said though was that DBing isn't about not pursuing, it's about doing what works. The question in my head now is that, if W and I go out together, without the kids, does that accomplish anything? I'm not sure.

If I'm in another room reading a book while she's watching TV - that's more of the same. If I'm sitting there with her watching TV - that's too available. I'm just not always clear on what to do.

At some point, if I'm going to demonstrate more openness / intimacy, I need to figure out how that goes.

But I think the heart of the matter is, not focusing on her. I think you're right about GALing. I had a chance to go out with a buddy tonight, but was too tired. Still catching up on sleep. But, I think it would be a good idea to get up and go to church in the morning. Then maybe stay out for awhile. But you're right - she seeks me out when she feels that she misses me. And I like to be home - I'm always right here.

So, yeah, a good 180 from pre-bomb days is to go out by myself / with friends. Like she's been doing.

GIMA, thank you for the input. I'm still finding my way here.
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/13/09 12:39 PM
Quote:
I guess what I'm saying is that if I'm too available to her now, is that a 180 to how I was before?
I think you answered your own question. You're being too available to her.



Quote:
I know that this example was pursuit - but it was also a 180. Initiating a "date", vs. my W planning it, getting the sitter, etc. And she responded positively to the idea.
Right, because you are acting like she wants/expects you to. She plans on you acting like her bff during and after the divorce. I think DBing is about throwing off their expectations and making them think.



Quote:
I was looking for a quote posted by JamesJohn back in the old days from '03, but couldn't find it. What he said though was that DBing isn't about not pursuing, it's about doing what works.
That's true, but your acting like her best friend hasn't been working too well. She's filing for D and planning on having you move out of your house. If you read DB, I would think it's time for LRT at this point.

Quote:
If I'm in another room reading a book while she's watching TV - that's more of the same. If I'm sitting there with her watching TV - that's too available. I'm just not always clear on what to do.
I agree. Instead of focusing on your GALing and DBing as to what will make her happy or whatever, you need to focus on yourself and your kids at this point.




Quote:
At some point, if I'm going to demonstrate more openness / intimacy, I need to figure out how that goes.
I think you have demonstrated a lot of openness/intimacy with your W from your posts this last month or 2. More than most marriages. With her having an A, and trying to break apart your family; I don't think you should be working on openness and intimacy with her at all at this point. If she's willing to give up her A, then that would be the time. I think you are blaming yourself way too much for your being at this point.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/13/09 01:19 PM
Bill,

Karen is right. If your W is in an A, she doesn't deserve your openness or initimacy right now. If she can get those things from OM AND have you to fall back on, then she is cake eating. Of course she does'nt want you to pull back, then she loses part of her safety net (a very big part) and things don't go as she planned.

I agree with Karen that right now is the time for LRT. You have to shake her up a bit. You did that with the checkbook, and despite what your W told you, that was GOOD. She needs to be uncomfortable with her decision to D you. If she does NOT feel uncomfortable or stressed, then you are assisting in your own execution. Which is why you need to pull back (i.e., NO pursuit - no foot rubs, no massages, no invites to dinner dates, no intimacy).

Karen is dead on here - your openness may be a 180 for you, but it isn't working. If anything, I think it is making her decision to move forward with D even easier b/c in a sense, you are rolling over and giving her exactly what she wants. I suspect if you stay on this course, there will be no change on her decision to D.

You don't have to be rude to her (and I'm NOT suggesting you do that). But, get busy with yourself doing two things: (1) Make changes in yourself and FOR YOURSELF, that need to be made (I would suggest working on your assertiveness and self esteem - pick up "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and read it) and (2) Get busy GAL'ing (reconnect with some old friends, start meeting friends for dinner and a movie, get back in shape, pick up a hobby you've always wanted to do).

Point of all this is that your W needs to see you improving yourself and being happy WITHOUT her. She also needs to get the understanding (by you not including her in your GAL'ing) what it's going to be like when she loses her BFF. This MAY make her stop for a minute to reconsider her decision to D. But I believe it is only once she comes to that understanding (that you will be civil with her to help raise the kids but NOT her friend if she D's you and breaks up your family) that she may change her mind about D.

One last thing (and sorry for the long post). I have not seen many (any?) sitch's here where the WAS had a realistic view of what the end result of D would be. In virtually every sitch (MINE INCLUDED), the WAS truly believes D is a good thing and, here's the key, that ridiculous premise appears to be based upon the WAS's belief that their soon to be ex will still be their best friend. I don't know about you, but I value my family too much to be "friends" with ANY person who would break it apart. I feel strong emotions towards such a person, and none of them are "friendly."
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/13/09 11:30 PM
Thanks guys.

Well I spent the bulk of today out of the house. I'm surprised at what a struggle it was for me.

Went to church. Went to the bookstore - unforunately they didn't have "no more mr. nice guy" - had lunch with a friend, hung out for awhile, went and got my oil changed.

The whole time I wanted to just come home, and it was a really strong impulse.

I'm thinking a lot about what you guys are saying.
Trying to figure myself out. I am really not used to being without her. I really need to pull back and look at myself - what I look like as just me.

Let's face it - as much as I've been working the last few years, and as much as I like being home - establishing a life outside my family hasn't been a priority for a long time. I'm used to my W being largely my only outlet.

So yeah, I need to figure out how to be happy without her. And change my need for her.

I think I still have some depression to kick. And you know, avoiding crowds and wanting to be at home is not new for me. I think this situation is bringing that out more.

Hobby - I should return to my guitar-building I guess. My neck on my current build has been sitting idle for months and months.

--------------
OK well she just came in here, and asked "is this a good time to talk"? Sheesh what is it with her and always wanting to talk?

She had figured out all the expenses and come to the conclusion that she's not going to be able to keep the house. I kind of shrugged and agreed. I think she's starting to get a view of how expensive this is going to be.

I wanted to say something like, well maybe we should stay married, or maybe I should take full custody of the kids and stay in the house, or something like that. But I didn't.

She kind of made small talk for a minute or so, I didn't say a whole lot, then she left. Said she got a roasted chicken for dinner, went off to take a bath.
--------------------
Wow, my son just came in here and gave me a book he picked out and W bought, saying "because you work so hard." Biography of John Lennon.

I suppose reading counts as a hobby, I've been reading a lot... seems like I really need more friends and social interaction though.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/14/09 12:27 AM
Bill,

I think social interaction would do worlds for you. It will help your self confidence immensely.
Posted By: C-Bart Re: BillM's new thread - 09/14/09 01:53 AM
Bill,
Your post hit pretty close to home on a couple of points especially the depression part and wanting just to stay home and avoid people. I remember standing in Home Depot a couple of years ago, feeling the walls close in on me. Its a nightmare. I've been in therapy for over a year and I feel different most of the time. However, when little things come up its almost like going back to square one. I'm trying to figure out how to prepare for these in advance. Still a work in progress.

GIMA makes a good point about social interaction. The little touch points like talking to the cashier at the gas station can really make a difference. I actually took a job that forces me to interact with new people on a daily basis. Kind of got detoured but that is another story. I read the other day that we are not directly in control of our emotions. However we are in control of our actions which directly control out emotions. Still working on this:-) Today seems to be a good test.

This post is starting to go long. I just wanted to tell you that your not alone.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/14/09 02:02 AM
Bill,

A little more. I was posting from my blackberry earlier.

If you have issues with depression, then get in to see a professional about it. Nothing to be ashamed about.

Also, one of the things I did early on was to make myself speak to strangers (cashier in a grocery store as I check out, another customer in line with me at a store). It forced me to be more outgoing and worked on my conversation skills. And it helped with my confidence.

I am slightly introverted, so my tendency is to keep to myself with people I don't know. It often comes off as people perceiving me as aloof.

Get outside your comfort zone a bit. It will force you to grow.
Posted By: C-Bart Re: BillM's new thread - 09/14/09 02:18 AM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
Bill,

If you have issues with depression, then get in to see a professional about it. Nothing to be ashamed about.

Can agree more with GIMA on this. It took me years to see someone from something that was slowly destroying my life. Now that I've been going for over a year I can't tell you how much better I feel. I don't think I could have survived my sitch without the help of a pro. Also you don't necessarily need meds to get through depression if you are concerned about that aspect as I was.

Originally Posted By: givingitmyall


I am slightly introverted, so my tendency is to keep to myself with people I don't know. It often comes off as people perceiving me as aloof.



Ditto only I'm extremely introverted. Aloof is a kind way of putting it.

I guess in a way I'm thankful to my W for leaving. It has forced me to grow in some very important aspects of my life.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/14/09 02:49 AM
Hey guys - GIMA, C-Bart, thanks for the responses

Yeah, when W hit me with this I immediately went to the doctor and got on meds. I saw a counciler a couple of times, but didn't really click with her - had occurred to me that I should try with someone else. Anyway, I was on meds and went to therapy the first time we went through this, so I'm open to it.

I'm an engineering manager - usually, I'm in meetings literally every hour of the day, talking to people. Now that I think about it, I've probably withdrawn in my engagement. But yeah, work is probably more or less my comfort zone.

I've got some friends that I've reached out to - buddy at work I've eaten lunch with a couple of times, and plan to again - another buddy that's said, we should go out for a beer, etc. So I have tenatively again started building my social network.

I just need to follow through now.

Yeah, I'm an introverted aloof guy too. W has commented how engaging and funny I can be around friends when we get together, so I'm not a "don't talk to me" kind of guy - but it takes a lot of energy. But right now all that seems to be stripped away. I was shocked at how I felt today.

I have noticed recently that, for example, giving someone a genuine smile when they give me change, that makes me feel good. I think now clearly I need to focus on interaction. Clearly I've become withdrawn.

BTW, have any of you tried divorce support groups? I found this website recently: http://www.divorcecare.com/
Posted By: C-Bart Re: BillM's new thread - 09/14/09 02:59 AM
I went to one meeting of DivorceCare and found it very supportive. Unfortunately my schedule at the time (70% travel) was not conducive to weekly meetings. I did get a reference to a good attorney though. A friend of mine went through the entire program and she really liked it. It is determinately a Christian program and emphasizes putting God first. They have a daily email that I look forward to every morning.

Interesting what your saying about the introverted personality. The energy thing is huge. If I have to do a presentation or a series of sales calls I will be completely wiped out at the end of the day.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/14/09 03:09 AM
Yeah -

I do presentations nearly every day. Maybe I should think about that - could be why I find work just takes it out of me in general. I am constantly "On". And I haven't had the energy to do it as well since this has started.

This is what W used to complain about - work would take so much, then we'd have the kids, etc. By the end of the day I just needed time to myself to recharge, and W was like, where's the time for me?

Thanks C-Bart - I might check this DivorceCare thing out.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/14/09 04:30 AM
Hmm - W commented about how great I was playing basketball with our son today. He had trouble last school year with confidence joining into playground games, and even now I've got to make him go play with me, even though he enjoys it once he's out there. But's he's gotten a lot better, I mean really, he's trying now. W was watching me with him today, and made a point to comment about it.

He's also asking to go back (him and his brother) to Cub Scouts. I've been the leader for the past two years, and we quit because, honestly, we were largely the whole den. Not sure what to do - I can't be the leader this year, but I talked to the cubmaster and sounds like they've got some more kids.
Posted By: LookingFrAnswers Re: BillM's new thread - 09/14/09 06:11 PM
Hi Bill,
Just checking in to see how you are. I caught up on your thread & am so sorry to hear about your findings. You sound great these past few days though! I tend to be more of a homebody too, GALing is not natural for me & I can relate to your feelings of wanting to be home. Since H left though I have not wanted to spend a lot of time there, good news/bad news.

I hear you about IC, there are some bad ones out there. I had to take a break from C for a while but have now found a new one I like so far. So it maybe worth looking for a new one. You sound on the right track, please continue to take care of yourself - you are doing a great job of dealing w a very difficult situation!
LFA
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/14/09 07:50 PM
Hey LFA - thank you, it's good to hear from you.

Well, I just spend some time researching therapists, from the list the insurance company gave me, and left a message. Hopefully this is a positive step.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/15/09 04:28 AM
Really exhausted right now, but checking in... hopefully this will be coherent.

So I got home today, and W asked for a hug, saying she was sad. We talked a little bit, then she told me how guilty she felt and broke down into tears. How it seemed that she's so selfish for tearing our family apart. She said, I shouldn't be telling you this, but I'm afraid that I can't survive without you. (not sure if she meant emotionally or financially)

And I said in response: very little.

She said later on that it would be great if we could just continue like this, seperated in the house, because at this point she has no negative feelings about me - no resentments, etc. Meaning I guess, now that she's given up on me, she doesn't have any expectations to feel bad about.

Well, as dinner was finishing up, we got a phone call. Now, I NEVER get calls at home, and when the phone rings I let the machine get it. Anyway, I've been talking to a friend from high school lately who has been through divorce, and she was calling - so I picked it up, went into the other room, and talked to her for awhile. Afterwards, W called it "mysterious..." and I just shrugged it off. Anyway, as we were cleaning up, we joked around a little bit.

Then later, W commented on how happy and "chipper" I seemed lately. I just thought, I really must be DBing my a$$ off lately, because you have NO IDEA how horrible I've been feeling. Seriously - you guys know how I've been doing - well, W thinks I'm doing great. What do you know.

I just said, I'm doing my best, and she said she wished she could be doing "her best" as well.

So, she watched TV while I worked, and we both packed it up at the same time. As tired as I am, I really wanted to reach out to her - hug, sit on the couch, whatever - but I didn't.

Don't know what all this adds up to, but these are as good of signs has I've had lately.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/15/09 05:24 AM
Wow, sounds like she's having second thoughts? Asking to stay in the house - she doesn't want to move out. These are great signs. Believe me, my H wanted out and he's out of the house. If she hasn't moved then she isn't sure she wants out. Good job with the PMA.
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/15/09 10:43 AM
I hate to be a downer, but she wants a D. She figures out that she can't afford the house after D, so then a day later she comes to you and says you could both live in the house together. It sounds like she still wants to be separated though. I'm afraid she might want cake-eating: emotional and financial support from you and dating as well.

If that is the case, would you be alright with her dating or OM while you're living in the same house? If that is what she intends, I'm thinking that won't work out. Have you talked about the specifics of this? If she isn't interested in an OM, would she agree to MC? At some point, she would have to agree to give up contact with OM though...
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/15/09 12:39 PM
Bill,

I think karen has hit it on the head. Your W has the best of both worlds right now. If OM is in the picture still, then you are going to have a very difficult time regaining your W's respect.

The right road is not usually the easiest.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: BillM's new thread - 09/15/09 05:44 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM


BTW, have any of you tried divorce support groups? I found this website recently: http://www.divorcecare.com/


I attended a divorce care group for several months and found it helpful. The people there, like those on the boards, become supportive friends.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/15/09 07:32 PM
Hey guys -

I made it clear and she agreed that there will be no dating. W has broken off seeing him (and says it was just a "couple of dates", going to the museum kind of a thing), if not FB contact. Make of this what you will.

She has agreed to counciling for "closure", not for the goal of working on the M. I'm not sure where to come down on that right now. I've got an appt now for next Monday for a new counciler - right now for me - but perhaps we can expand this into something bigger with W.

So my lawyer gave me a name for another consultative lawyer that my W could use. W has shown some annoyance at this, but this morning said that she knows I'm right about it, she's just overwhelmed. We'll see what happens there.

Before I left this morning, I sat down next to her briefly and said "have a good day." She put her head on my shoulder for a moment, said "I miss you." And I said..... "See you tonight" and got up and left.

Thank you guys for the responses. I think I may try out this DivorceCare business. Hope, I don't know if this is second thoughts or not, she's acted like this before when she's "sad". I just don't know. These guys have given me a lot of coaching to not comfort her, make it OK for her, let her feel the concequences of her actions. Karen, GIMA - yeah, I'm being careful with my expectations here. Monitoring.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/15/09 07:42 PM
Quote:
I made it clear and she agreed that there will be no dating. W has broken off seeing him (and says it was just a "couple of dates", going to the museum kind of a thing), if not FB contact. Make of this what you will.


You have to live with it. Just be very aware of what's going on.

Quote:
She has agreed to counciling for "closure", not for the goal of working on the M. I'm not sure where to come down on that right now.


I got the exact, same line from my W. And she's still here. YOU don't have to make ANY decisions. This is HER party. She will have to make that call. And LET her. The pressure on her is a good thing.

Quote:
Before I left this morning, I sat down next to her briefly and said "have a good day." She put her head on my shoulder for a moment, said "I miss you." And I said..... "See you tonight" and got up and left.


Good man. This was good.

Right now, it's time for tough love on your part. Just imagine you have a spoiled teenager who wants something you know is not in her best interest. You can either give in, and spoil her. Or, show some tough love, and let her find the right path.

You can do this Bill. Nobody said it was going to be easy.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/15/09 08:03 PM
Ok, then, I agree - if she wants comfort from you while she walks out the door - that is unfair to you - stand up to her. Withdraw the comfort. If she thinks she wants out, she has to see how that feels and that means not still being dependant on you to comfort her while she decides to leave. It's tough. It's a bit of emotional manipulation she's pulling on you.

Would you feel comfortable saying "Yeah, this is sad" and walking away when she wants to cozy up to you?

PS Counselling is good. No matter why she tells herself she's going in there, it's good to get in there. You have no idea what can happen in there.
Posted By: Esox Re: BillM's new thread - 09/15/09 08:51 PM
Bill,

I commend you on your recent interactions with your wife. You appear less needy and you are acting (at least I think you are) in a way that your wife will eventually respect. You are taking a stand for your marriage . . and good for you.

I don't know if all this will bring her around, but I am certain that, at the end of this, you will be at a much better place than if you just caved and played nice while she guts you.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/15/09 09:55 PM
Quote:
You have to live with it. Just be very aware of what's going on.

Yeah. Well, W isn't planning a lot of trips going forward. She actually showed me pictures of her holding her friend's newborn, and said "See? THis is where I was." From what I can tell, the amount of contact isn't particularly strong, but yeah have to be aware.

Quote:
I got the exact, same line from my W. And she's still here. YOU don't have to make ANY decisions. This is HER party. She will have to make that call. And LET her. The pressure on her is a good thing.

Did you get her into counciling while she had this attitude? If so was it productive?

Quote:
PS Counselling is good. No matter why she tells herself she's going in there, it's good to get in there. You have no idea what can happen in there.

Yeah I think that's a good perspective. I made this appointment next Monday for me - but will talk to her about bringing W to sessions.

As for the tough love, walking away, being less needy - thanks for the comments guys. It's really tough. I think if you asked her perspective, I'm pulling it off. But - she initiated a hug when I really wanted one (luck?). I found myself this morning going down the stairs to seek her out, and had to turn myself around. I want to sit next to her, but make myself sit arcoss the room. I didn't have to sit next to her this morning, but I did - just for a second - when she put her head on my shoulder.

It's a close thing, but I am getting better at it.

I must say that I feel a lot better the last couple of days than I did on Sunday.

Thanks guys
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/15/09 10:10 PM
Bill

It gets easier. Just keep up what you are doing. Lovingly detach.

On the counseling issue, back when all hit the fan, W refused C to save the M. Hasn't been discussed again and won't until she's ready to talk R. But, I see C as an essential step towards a happy M.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/16/09 03:00 AM
I guess I've become a minutiae poster. Can't stay away from the message board.

Well, good news, bad news, like most days.
Got home - W called the other consultative attorney, didn't like her, but said she's feeling OK with going with the L I hired for mediation. She's meeting with her L tomorrow, and sounds like she's going to have him sub out after all. Course, not over till it's over.

On the other hand, she's coming up with her idea of how we would do a settlement - how to split things up, support, etc. and wants me to do the same things to compare. She wants to start this process.

I was hoping to see more positive signs, but can't get greedy I guess. It's funny how my mind wants to make definitive conclusions based on momentary evidence. Oh, It's going to be OK!! Oh, we're doomed!!

Well, she's gone to the movies. Tuesday night.

Pretty sure I'm going to go to this DivorceCare thing tomorrow.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/16/09 03:03 AM
Oh and the other pieces of minutiae - saw W's bio she was filling out for (another) school reunion - the one she actually graduated from. Left all the info about spouse blank. Talked about the boys and her work.

Don't know why that would bother me at this point. I guess it doesn't so much, just another data point that stings. Getting used to it.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/16/09 03:04 AM
Bill,

Just keep with the plan. You can't stop her from making a mistake. Nothing wrong with going the consultative route, just make sure you protect yourself.

I suppose you have heard the phrase here about "I won't resist, but won't assist" when it comes to a WAS's decision to D.

And, you are right - it's not over til its over.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/16/09 03:06 AM
Quote:
Don't know why that would bother me at this point.


B/c you still care. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Detaching doesn't mean you stop caring. It means you accept the worst case scenario and realize you will be ok. It means letting her go even though you know she's making a mistake. Maybe she comes back, maybe not. But, you are going to be fine either way.
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/16/09 04:00 PM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall

I suppose you have heard the phrase here about "I won't resist, but won't assist" when it comes to a WAS's decision to D.

I hadn't heard that before! That's a good one!

My gut feeling is that she's still working towards D and that she is hoping to keep the house somehow. But good at least that was a little chink in her fantasy bubble and a little reality check for her.

I think when she gets enough reality checks at some point she will want to R with you and work on the M. You just have to try not to shield her, comfort her, and let her experiences consequences/reality. My concern would be that the longer it takes, the less likely you may be interested in R with her!

Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/16/09 05:05 PM
Quote:
My concern would be that the longer it takes, the less likely you may be interested in R with her!


And I think that is a very real and valid concern. I am living that now.

What I have come to realize, at least for the time being, is that my negative feelings or lack of attraction to my W right now is likely due to my needs not being met (the empty love tank/bank thing). So, while I am not feeling my feelings for her right now, they are still there, just sort of hibernating. It will take my W making deposits in my love tank/bank to awaken those feelings. But, I think the feelings are still there.

AND, this is an example of precisely why we don't trust our feelings. They will cloud our judgment and lead us to make bad decisions.
Posted By: Coach Re: BillM's new thread - 09/16/09 06:17 PM
[quoteWhat I have come to realize, at least for the time being, is that my negative feelings or lack of attraction to my W right now is likely due to my needs not being met (the empty love tank/bank thing). So, while I am not feeling my feelings for her right now, they are still there, just sort of hibernating. It will take my W making deposits in my love tank/bank to awaken those feelings. But, I think the feelings are still there.
] [/quote]

You want some deposits in your love bank?! Do you know the answer or do you want me to spoon feed it to you? You can get out of limboland. You are a smart man, you've been doing the work, what's holding you back?
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/16/09 08:27 PM
Don't want to hijack the thread, but I know the answer, and I've been working on that. And I will keep working on that to draw her to a point of wanting to work on/discuss the M.

So, I will continue to
-open up to her to allow her into all areas of my life
-flirt
-be confident and strong
-maintain a PMA
-be a leader in our M
-listen to her, really listen

Late in the day after a lot of meetings. Am I missing anything (sure I am)?
Posted By: Coach Re: BillM's new thread - 09/16/09 08:31 PM
i'm whispering - fill her love buckets, make it about her without giving up yourself, be confident enough to practice true giving without expectations
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/16/09 09:11 PM
Quote:
i'm whispering - fill her love buckets, make it about her without giving up yourself, be confident enough to practice true giving without expectations


Thanks. Been doing that too. And, will keep it up. Check my thread for another positive sign I got today.

And now, to return this thread to the rightful owner.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/17/09 04:11 AM
Hey guys -

Yeah, if this comes back together, it's going to take a lot of work for me to be right with it again.

Well, W is keeping her lawyer, but wants a to proceed collaboratively. This doesn't look good.

I went to "Divorcecare" meeting tonight.
It was a good experience. Glad I went. Good spend time with people who can relate.

Another one of those days where I felt like I was walking around with broken glass in my chest. I miss my W. Well, came home, said a few words, and came in here to the computer.

Very tired.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/17/09 05:32 AM
W has agreed to go to Retrouvaille. We have one locally the weekend of 10/9. I'm getting information, she's checking with MIL to take care of the kids.

She said she's not making any promises, and I said I want to make sure I've done everything I can, and she agreed.

We talked a bit about all this.

She said that something came out in the counciling session we had, where I made some statement that she's nurturing; her response is that she's felt that she's had to take care of me. I said that, whatever happens, I've realized that I need to find balance in my life and be able to take care of myself.

And she said: and to be happy! She said, that's killed her, that it's one thing to "fall out of love" with someone, which she views as "feeble" - but she felt like she had to pull back because I was unhappy. (Work stress)

Then she said that, part of her feels almost selfish in getting to spend a weekend with me, that there's a part of her that still loves me.

Maybe I've got a chance here, guys.
Posted By: Sara Re: BillM's new thread - 09/17/09 05:50 AM
That's really good new, Bill. And October 9 is not far off at all. Keep doing what you are doing to keep things pleasant at home. Notice when she does something nice and compliment her on it. Say hello and goodbye. Try to be helpful. The little things really mean a lot. Treat her at least as well as you would a stranger.
Posted By: Looking_For_Help Re: BillM's new thread - 09/17/09 02:10 PM
Hang in there BM!

Orich and his W recently had tremendous success with Retrouvaille. Go ahead and read is thread. It will provide you with inspiration.

I believe Thinker is going to Retro within the next few weeks and I'm going in 29 days (Yes, I have countdown underway).

Regards,
LFH
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/17/09 07:18 PM
Hey guys -

Yeah, this is a nice glimmer of hope.

Things are OK in the house, so that's not a problem right now. Will keep it up.

LFH, I'll check out the thread when I have a little time. Thanks -

W also mentioned last night that she had a dream where we got divorced, then got re-married.

When I brought up "for the sake of the boys", she stopped me and talked about sensitive she is on that. She's feeling a lot of guilt.

Having trouble concentrating today. Again. Anyway, I guess that's my cue to go do something productive.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/17/09 07:33 PM
Quote:
When I brought up "for the sake of the boys", she stopped me and talked about sensitive she is on that. She's feeling a lot of guilt.


Bill, you are right, she IS feeling a lot of guilt. And that's ok. You don't want to save her from this, but you also don't want to make it worse - then YOU become the problem in her mind.

Also, if she decides to come back, you want it to be for the right reasons. Guilt is NOT one of those right reasons. Love for you and the family IS a right reason.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/17/09 07:50 PM
Yeah, I'm with you on that.

I was making the point that, there are so many reasons to make sure we've done everything we could. When she stopped me I didn't press it. Yeah, I don't want to guilt her into it.

Plus, her version of that solution is to stay seperated in the house. I don't want that, I want my W.

I'm starting to see what a lot of people have said. I don't want my old M back. I want something better.

I've had trouble balancing. I've let work strip me bare. I need to make changes for me. Either be OK with taking less responsiblity at work, or learning to cope better. If this works out, things need to be different.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/17/09 08:09 PM
Quote:
Plus, her version of that solution is to stay seperated in the house. I don't want that, I want my W.


Preaching to the choir.
Posted By: Coach Re: BillM's new thread - 09/17/09 08:21 PM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
Quote:
Plus, her version of that solution is to stay seperated in the house. I don't want that, I want my W.


Preaching to the choir.



So give your wives the man they fell in love with.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/17/09 08:23 PM
Quote:
So give your wives the man they fell in love with.


That's what "the work" is right now. Doing it.
Posted By: shellshockedga Re: BillM's new thread - 09/17/09 08:41 PM
But that is the tough part. 20 years ago, who was I and why did my wife fall in love with me? Great questions to ponder over the weekend.
Posted By: Greek Re: BillM's new thread - 09/18/09 12:37 AM
Quote:


So give your wives the man they fell in love with.


Not so fast! Yes, recall those days of first love and the reasons for attraction, ultimately Love, and refresh those qualities. But do not forget, gentlemen, that your wife has grown, changed and made changes. In many ways, she is not the woman who fell in love witht you. You must get to know her again and attract the woman she is today. Only some of it is about you. smile

Greek
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/18/09 04:16 AM
Well, now she's having second thoughts about Retro...
Said she agreed to it even before she knew what it was -

Says, if it's going to be uncomfortable stuff like staring into each others' eyes, or group sessions, etc...

I said, no, it doesn't look like that. Well, I sent her the link. Hope for the best.

Didn't spend too much time with her tonight. She came and got a hug when I came home. Funny, when she does this, her hugs aren't very enthusiastic.

Did email tonight, she took a bath. Still distracted at work, but trying to muscle through it.
Posted By: Sara Re: BillM's new thread - 09/18/09 05:17 AM
No group sessions. No third party opinions. No touchy/feely exercises. Just a chance for both of you to think about your lives and talk about your feelings with each other, and only each other. A quiet, meditative weekend. it's really very nice.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/18/09 07:59 PM
Hey guys -

Not a whole lot going on today, focusing on work today.

I have a really strong urge to call W. Really missing her right now. Could see myself this morning going into her room and crawling into bed with her.

I realize that we're in 2nd half of September now. Time keeps on passing, pushing to finalized divorce in Feb.

I've still got to detach and figure out how to feel ok just being me.

OK, boring post.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/19/09 05:08 AM
She's now worried about the cost of Retro (and the hotel). Said, maybe we can just do counciling. Again, she's not into this lets-work-on-it frame of mind. Do you guys know, what is the suggested donation, so I can tell her...

Really hard to not pursue tonight. Really wanted to grab her.

Anyway, put on a really good mood tonight for dinner. Had her laughing, the boys commented on it too. Don't know if it was being to accessable, but it was genuine, and it's been awhile that I've been in a good mood.

We took the boys to our Cub Scout pack meeting tonight. W did keep touching me to get my attention and make comments. Afterwards, regarding my interaction with the other parents, W said I have a confidence that is "very attractive."

I think that what I project and what I feel are pretty different things.

I did sit down next to her too often at home tonight. Put my hand on her leg at one point. Again, I just wanted to sweep her into a hug - just have this impulse that if I planted one on her this would all be over. Well, I didn't do that. And when it was her choice, she didn't come and sit next to me.

I guess I don't have anything really significant to say. Just want her so badly. It seems like she's so close, but still so far. It's a force of will to not pursue.

Yeah, detach, work on me, all that. I know.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/19/09 12:22 PM
Quote:
Anyway, put on a really good mood tonight for dinner. Had her laughing, the boys commented on it too. Don't know if it was being to accessable, but it was genuine, and it's been awhile that I've been in a good mood.


This is good. Very good. Make her laugh. Keep the mood light and happy. It sends a message to her that you are not a threat and that she can have fun around you without you having any expectations (so long as you don't pursue).

See, you want to show her, by being positive without pursuing, that it's ok for her to come out of her bunker. That it's ok for her just to be relaxed and have fun around you b/c you are doing it without having any expectations. The more this occurs, the more she may come back. Just really keep yourself from pursuing - I know the urge is overpowering sometimes.

Quote:
We took the boys to our Cub Scout pack meeting tonight. W did keep touching me to get my attention and make comments. Afterwards, regarding my interaction with the other parents, W said I have a confidence that is "very attractive."


See. Felt good to hear that, didn't it.

But, don't do this,

Quote:
I did sit down next to her too often at home tonight. Put my hand on her leg at one point.


or you just might frighten that scared little animal back into her hole.

You create the right environment. And let her come to you on her timetable. Maybe she comes back, maybe not. You're cool no matter what.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/19/09 03:34 PM
It is overpowering. Really struggling with this. I see myself knocking on her door and crawling into bed with her this morning.

Thanks GIMA.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/19/09 03:46 PM
Get busy with something.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/19/09 03:54 PM
Yep. Made breakfast for the kids. Took W some eggs too, but I didn't say anything or linger at all. Moving on with the day. Thx GIMA.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/19/09 04:05 PM
Very funny - she came in her to talk to me. Said she's going to buy a bed today (she's been sleeping on an air mattress since late July). Asked me if i wanted to go with her for something to do.

Jeez, as much as I want to be with her, that was an easy "no"

OK really getting on with my day now
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/19/09 10:15 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM
Asked me if i wanted to go with her for something to do.

Jeez, as much as I want to be with her, that was an easy "no"

Good job! Yep, I don't think you should help her do anything that is hurting your marriage, buying a separate bed, looking for apt., moving out of your house to make it easier for her, or anything like that. I think the more consequences (b/c of her poor choices) the better.

I agree with all of gima's points. Good on the positive PMA. Keep working on that, GALing, working on self-confidence & detaching. I was where you were a year ago, and now I feel like if my X is too stupid to see how great I am, I don't want him anyway. I don't think he's good enough for me anymore, and I used to feel the opposite.

Yeah, you know how I feel about the touching and rubbing. When she's ready to work on the marriage, then you can do that to your heart's content. Now, not a good idea, since it's pursuing.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/20/09 02:00 AM
Yeah, forcing myself to not pursue. I'm largely doing it I think, it's just hard. I'm frustrated with this process of picking myself up.

We took the kids to a movie today (W's idea) and some other family time. We all had a really good time - keeping up the PMA in front of her and the boys.

She actually spent a long time rubbing my shoulders today - offered when she saw me trying to do it myself. It wasn't half-hearted either. For what it's worth.

She commented on buying that bed a couple of times. They're delivering it tomorrow. She seems to be mildly bothered by having done this - I can't really tell, I didn't pursue the conversation.

Here's the funny thing - I was on the phone for a long time this morning, talking to a friend - just trying to beat the blues I was feeling - when W came home, asked if I'd been on the phone all this time. I'm generally not a phone talker... She'd been trying to call all that time to ask my opinion about this bed. Said she didn't feel right making such a large purchace by herself.

She brought up Retrouvaille again - she has mixed feelings. Said she'll go, but not to the follow-ups. Said, she didn't want to say too much because everything's going "so well" between us right now - meaning, I guess minimial conflict - but, she's saying that she doesn't think the result will be what I want, as she's not invested in working on the M.

So, overall good day, but tonight she was a little agitated. After this last conversation.

So, mixed bag. Pushing forward.
Posted By: Buttercup37 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/20/09 02:39 PM
You are doing GREAT and are a real inspiration to me!
smile
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/20/09 05:28 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM

She brought up Retrouvaille again - she has mixed feelings. Said she'll go, but not to the follow-ups. Said, she didn't want to say too much because everything's going "so well" between us right now - meaning, I guess minimial conflict - but, she's saying that she doesn't think the result will be what I want, as she's not invested in working on the M.

I wouldn't even discuss it with her. I mean you don't know how it will go until after you go. If she's going in with an open mind or even a slightly open mind, I wouldn't worry about the followups or her agreeing to them at this point. You can decide that stuff later. All that stuff in the future, by then she may want to work on the marriage more than you. Who knows? I think you also need to be realistic about it, keep your expectations low, keep GALing. Detachment will follow.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/20/09 10:12 PM
Buttercup - thank you. I wish I felt it more...

Karen - yeah, I just said "OK". As long as she's willing to go, that's good enough. I don't need to debate it with her.

Felt good this morning to work outside. Kids cut the grass, I washed the cars (wife's too), etc. Yeah, keeping busy is the key.

Seems like I have a couple hours every day that's just a struggle. I'm starting to wonder if moving out sooner rather than later would allow me to cope and detach more. I know, everyone says don't move out. I'm just thinking that (1) if I don't see her every day, it's going to be less painful, and (2) may let reality set in for her more.

Her bed was delivered today. Kind of put me in a bad mood I guess.

Thinking a lot about what's on the other side of all this. The scope of my life, bigger questions than just my marriage - work, relationships, God, etc.
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/20/09 10:58 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM
I'm starting to wonder if moving out sooner rather than later would allow me to cope and detach more. I know, everyone says don't move out. I'm just thinking that (1) if I don't see her every day, it's going to be less painful, and (2) may let reality set in for her more.

I think there are a lot of good reasons for you staying in the house;but I've been through that and I know how tough it is to live with someone that's maybe already kind of checked out of the M. That's why I had told you before if you can make it to February (the date you were discussing) that would be plenty long enough!

What does your L say about how moving into an apt. will affect your custody/financials? I would probably try to follow her advice if possible. If she says it's not good for you if you wind up in D court, then I wouldn't do it. If she says it doesn't matter, you should probably take at least a few days to consider/think about it. I wouldn't go out and sign a lease unless you're certain.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/21/09 01:14 AM
Quote:
I'm starting to wonder if moving out sooner rather than later would allow me to cope and detach more. I know, everyone says don't move out. I'm just thinking that (1) if I don't see her every day, it's going to be less painful, and (2) may let reality set in for her more.


Bill, I would be very careful about this. I don't think moving out is something you should do unless you are done and don't want to be M'd anymore. I would not do it if the reason is you think it might bring her back.

My $0.02 worth.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/21/09 01:16 AM
I'm certainly not certain.

I don't feel right when she's not here, and I don't feel right when she is. I look forward to getting home and seeing her every day, which is then painful. The bottom line is that I still need to detach. No, I'm not going to make any spontanious decisions on this. Guess I just need to push on. Just frustrated with my own emotions.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/21/09 01:22 AM
Originally Posted By: BillM
I'm certainly not certain.

I don't feel right when she's not here, and I don't feel right when she is. I look forward to getting home and seeing her every day, which is then painful. The bottom line is that I still need to detach. No, I'm not going to make any spontanious decisions on this. Guess I just need to push on. Just frustrated with my own emotions.



Or impatient. I know b/c I have been there, and still are.

If you aren't certain you are done, then stay put. PERIOD.

What you are feeling is totally normal. The negative feelings you have are due to her not meeting your needs. So, you have to do that right now. That's where GAL'ing comes in.

Keep working on detaching. It will come, but it doesn't happen overnight. When you get there, you'll know it.

You just have to be patient and keep working on you.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/21/09 01:30 AM
Yep. Got it. I'm not done.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/21/09 04:24 AM
Well, got W to sing with me tonight, then the boys came in and I played a few songs. One of them says, this is what weekends should be like, we just need popcorn!! Got them to bed, so I turned on Law & Order on TiVo and she sat and watched too.

She's touching me a lot lately, in sort of a "slap on the back" kind of way. As I mentioned, she rubbed my shoulders for a long time yesterday.

Said she was going to get her mom to watch the kids for Retrouvaille weekend, so that's good. She's particiating in getting this put together. Also asked if she could go visit her mom next weekend, which made me a little suspicious, but I'm almost certain is legit. From my pause, she asked me what was wrong, though, and I said it was fine.

I keep going back to that conversation we had about Retro, where she said that she likes the idea of spending an entire weekend with me, and said "there's a part of me that still loves you." Of course, she still seems resolved - seems concerned that I'm going to be disappointed.

I'll keep on pulling it together. Patience. Hope.

Oh hey, I've got appointment tomorrow with the new counciler. Will see how this goes...
Posted By: LookingFrAnswers Re: BillM's new thread - 09/21/09 05:07 PM
Bill,
You are doing great, & wishing you best of luck w Retro & the new counselor. Getting the right one makes an incredible difference. Your W sounds conflicted, lots of doubts - people on here have told me this is a good sign, anything that causes WAS to doubt their plans is good. Hang in there, remember to "believe nothing you hear & only 1/2 of what you see".
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/21/09 05:22 PM
Thanks LFA. I hope, I hope...

I blew it this morning, I grabbed her and hugged her. Every day, waking up without her just kills me. This was after I made breakfast for everyone, including her egg whites. And took them to her room. Stupid. I really need to detach.

She asked me in private if everything was OK, I said yeah, and she said, "I have moments too." She was bright about it, not disturbed or anything.
Posted By: LookingFrAnswers Re: BillM's new thread - 09/21/09 05:35 PM
I'm no expert but Bill don't be too hard on yourself. You are like me, a person who beats themself up alot. I will leave it to the experts to advise you here, but will offer my 2 cents. Often when we think we've screwed up it is really not a big deal. You may have thrown her a little - so what? I dont' see this as a big mistake. Maybe you needed to get that out of your system. Don't worry too much about it. Just continue detaching as you have been. You're only human & progress is not always in a straight line.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/21/09 09:30 PM
Yeah I do tend to punish myself.

OOOOkay. Saw the C today. She said that sounds like saving the marriage is not impossible but improbable, that said, she would help me with this goal.

We also talked about all the other elements - need to invest in work or I'll regret it - need to get sleep - medications, symptoms of depression, all that stuff. I think she's going to be good.

So, she said, sounds like what I need to do for W is to begin to make her start feeling that intimacy again. Take her on a date, etc.

I asked, OK how do I do that without pursuing?

She said, well, there's a difference between doing this and chasing, applying pressure.

So guys, I'm going to seek out a difference balance with the pursuit thing. No pressure or chasing - but I'm going to change what I'm doing. Focus on filling W's "love bucket" from a position of confidence - not of expectation.

I'm going to try this anyway. I know the 2x4s are coming - but I think it's time to try something different.
Posted By: Lotus Re: BillM's new thread - 09/21/09 10:08 PM
I don't really know you're situation, but it sounds good to me that you have a counselor and a plan. I think having a plan and sticking to it is important. While I was lurking I saw some people trying different advice everyday -- be nice, be mean, be loving, be demanding,.... I mean what is the spouse supposed to think if they never know what to expect from you?
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/22/09 02:50 AM
Hey Lotus -

Kind of feel like I've been in a holding pattern here. I know, everyone tells me to be patient, and that's good advice.

W has told me clearly that she has not felt loved. My C said today, the only thing that's going to make her have a change of heart is to change this. The whole intmacy thing, opening up to her, address her love languanges.

I've been trying not to pursue, and I've done OK - C said today, not pursuing is about not putting pressure on her. But I tend to agree that I've got to so something to address this underlying issue. Last time I we went though this in 2003, that was what made the difference.

I know you guys are going to warn me on this, and i know I need to be very careful here. I do not want to be reckless. But I think it's time to "experiment and monitor results." I need to be careful to operate from a perspective of strength and confidence vs. being needy.

I know, I need to focus on myself, I haven't put aside anything here.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/22/09 03:16 PM

I've got to be careful here. My focus needs to continue to be on myself, or else I'm going to fall apart.

I still feel stuck, knowing I've got to find some way to support myself emotionally, still feeling the need for W. Crap, I know I'm stronger than this. Ugh, I can't go on like this.

Well I guess it's time to "comparmentalize" and focus on work.

Well, we're setting up Retro, that's good.

I'm probably sounding like a whiney broken record here.
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/22/09 03:23 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM


W has told me clearly that she has not felt loved. My C said today, the only thing that's going to make her have a change of heart is to change this. The whole intmacy thing, opening up to her, address her love languanges.

From reading your posts the last month or 2, I thought that's what you were doing? It seems like more of the same to me. Have you told your counselor the kind of stuff you've been doing the last couple months?
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/22/09 03:30 PM
Only briefly, we covered a lot of ground. Told her I've been talking to her, talked about the love languanges - she said didn't sound like acts of service, probably more physical touch... Well sheesh, I know W asked for time together a LOT too.

She recommed a book called "Hold Me Tight" - I've got to look it up.

OK I've gotta go - meeting -
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/22/09 07:49 PM
I can't believe it.

She started talking this weekend about going to visit her mother this coming weekend, then changed it to going to see her friend with the newborn again - saying she needed a break. But it looks like she's making plans to see this other guy on Friday.

God, she's breaking her word on this. I must be incredibly naive.

Last time we talked about this, I told her I'd pieced it together, figured it out, and she admitted to "a few dates." She agreed to not do this again.

She's just not my wife anymore. I mean that on multiple levels.

I deserve better than this.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/23/09 01:20 AM
Well, I'm either misinterpreting, which I don't think I am, or she's now lying to my face - talking about how she's trying to be respectful, all affirmitive about how she's keeping her word. She says that if she were in my shoes, she would be suspicious too. That I don't trust her anymore, and she probably wouldn't either. Then she short of changed tone and said that it's not her job to make me feel OK with everything.

She says she needs these weekends away to get a break, she she can sleep and not feel sick and have headaches.

Says it's hard being around me because it makes her feel anxious.

She she's got a lot of feelings about this Retro weekend that she needs to talk to her friend about (the one she says she's going to see). Apparently this is causing a lot of anxiety for her.

She also said that she's really scared about what this looks like on the other side. That I'm doing so much now, but she shouldn't stay just because I'm washing dishes.

Not sure what else to say. Not optimistic.
I'm really starting to internalize that she's just not my wife. Starting to see her differently.

I actually feel a little more intact right now than I have been. Like I don't need her as much... hopefully I can hold on to that.
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/23/09 03:26 AM



Quote:
She she's got a lot of feelings about this Retro weekend that she needs to talk to her friend about (the one she says she's going to see). Apparently this is causing a lot of anxiety for her.

I don't get that. Why is she putting so much pressure on herself about the Retro weekend? You just go, whatever happens, happens. I mean she has nothing to lose right? I would think you'd be feeling a lot more pressure than she would. I'm not a WAS though, so I can pretty much not understand some of that thinking.


Quote:
That I'm doing so much now, but she shouldn't stay just because I'm washing dishes.
What better reason is there? Guys that do dishes are hot!!! smile

Quote:
Not sure what else to say. Not optimistic.
I'm really starting to internalize that she's just not my wife. Starting to see her differently.
I don't know about that, but if she's having an EA she probably isn't the same. I also think we tend to have rose-colored glasses with our spouses (the LBS at least) and they start slipping as time goes on when our WAS are doing what they are.

Quote:
I actually feel a little more intact right now than I have been. Like I don't need her as much... hopefully I can hold on to that.
I'm so glad to hear that! You really don't need her, and I think it's good and healthy to realize that. I remember when I used to feel that way, and it's actually a good feeling when you realize you'll be fine with or without the WAS.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/23/09 08:14 PM
For Retro, her comment was, "Look at it from my perspective, feeling the way I do, going to a marriage weekend." She said she needs to think about it, journal about it, figure out what she wants to get out of it. Asked me yesterday, are you sure they're going to put us in different rooms?

I took a cue from C and gave her some attention Monday night, but it doesn't appear that this has had much affect - I need to back way off now.

Looking ay myself in all this, maybe I've had a feeling like, she's just on the other side of a curtain - she's still there, I just need to find a way to draw that curtain between us aside. This wasn't a concious approach, but I realize it's been my perspective. We talk, we share meals, we watch TV together, we go and do things with the kids. She washed and folded all my underwear this weekend.

We somehow are having way too many R conversations.

I said to her yesterday, how are you doing? And she said, we can't use each other as crutches, we've got to stop asking each other stuff like that.

She's starting to say things to me, then says, I can't talk to you about that.

But she also says, we're doing a good job respecting each other's boundaries, etc.

And dammit, I still look forward to seeing her at night, I look forward to when she comes home, etc. As hard as this is, it's the highlight of my day.

So, I realize, she's not on the other side of that curtain. She's gone. I'm living in this house with a ghost of a relationship, not something in critical condition. I've been in the mind of trying to revive it, but that's not it. I'm alone in this. I need to start thinking and being that way.

Is DBing the same as preparing to be single? Getting yourself to cope?

I've almost refused to envision life after divorce because I have not really been willing to accept it. When she's said "I still care," "I like being around you," "There's a part of me that still loves you," all those little hints, I've kept thinking, I've got something to work with, I just need to sweep that curtain aside. But she's also said I don't know how to be around you, it's HARD being around you because I feel anxious, etc. After yesterday's conversation, I think she's increasingly frustrated. This whole think of, I don't trust what your're doing this weekend came down to, It's not her job to make this OK for me. She interpreted it as having to reassure me.

I still haven't gotten out of the habits of husband / wife conversations.

I called her today (haven't done this in quite a while) to remind her that I'm going out tonight, and asked about a Cub Scout activity this weekend. She was tired and cranky, sounds like she's getting sick, so she was pretty quick to say, I don't want to talk about it right now.

So. I feel like things are shifting inside of me. I say that she's not my wife, because I mean that, I've got to break all habits of treating her like my wife. I see that now. There is no game of sweeping back the curtain. All this might be basic stuff guys, but I don't think I've connected with it emotionally.

I've really got to start thinking about the other side of this. What it looks like. Having a different home. Sharing the kids. Having less money. And doing this being just me. She's not invested.
Posted By: Dia Re: BillM's new thread - 09/23/09 08:42 PM
FYI re: Retro

Somebody on here went and said fully half the couples there were already D'd and others were separated. It's a Communication weekend moreso than a marriage weekend as far as I can tell.

(I haven't been, mind you, just reporting what I've read.)
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/23/09 09:10 PM

Quote:
I said to her yesterday, how are you doing? And she said, we can't use each other as crutches, we've got to stop asking each other stuff like that.
I think she's right.


Quote:
Is DBing the same as preparing to be single? Getting yourself to cope?
Yes and no. I think if you do wind up single it does help you cope with that. I've also seen some marriages here and in my real life come back after EAs and PAs. I have noticed that it often happens after the LBS basically moves on, and not by dating, but just by really moving on. I think the WAS know us well enough to know when that happens or we are faking it. But the funny thing is if you fake it for a while, you wind up honestly detaching. I think there are so many good reasons to GAL and 180. You're making yourself the best person you can be and actually ready for a healthy R. I was so depressed at the start of this I don't think it would have been possible for me to have a healthy M and I don't feel that way anymore. I think GALing also helps you to focus on yourself and not take the M's pulse way too often.




Quote:
But she's also said I don't know how to be around you, it's HARD being around you because I feel anxious, etc.
I think that's one thing that maybe she needs to work on if she wants to be a healthy person. You aren't responsible for her feeling anxious, she is. If she's feeling anxious about something that's her problem, and she needs to fix it or not fix it as the case may be. You both should be responsible for your own emotions, positive or negative as the case may be.

Quote:
I've really got to start thinking about the other side of this. What it looks like. Having a different home. Sharing the kids. Having less money. And doing this being just me. She's not invested.
I do think both of you probably need to do this. If she's having an EA or PA, she's thinking you're the blame for her problems, and they'll all go away and life will be perfect after D. I've heard that from my X and almost everyone on this board has heard that. Life doesn't work like that though, and at some point she will realize that...
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/24/09 03:59 AM
Hey Karen - Thanks for the feedback.

Yeah, I see that I've still got some ways to go in being - what - whole I guess.

I think I'm making slow progress though. Actually felt better this afternoon than I have for awhile, but maybe that's the Xanex. smile It may be that every day is incrementally better. I feel more detached right now, maybe that will stick. I think I'm starting to focus a little more on elements of my life.

Anyway, went to the DivorceCare meeting tonight. It was good.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: BillM's new thread - 09/24/09 01:06 PM
I am glad you went to Divorce Care. I know it helped me when I went. I stopped going because my H moved out and I had to get home to the dog after work. I have been looking for a group closer to home, but no luck so far.

Bill, I agree with Karen. It takes a long time to truly walk our own path and at first we fake it. Fake it until you make it. It doesn't mean you stop caring, that you give up, but it does mean you show that other person the respect to decide for themselves how they feel and what they are going to do.

It means that you take your heart out of their hands and don't spin with the least little sign, action or words. GAL helps you start to pull your identity away from the combined "us" that was you in the marriage.

We lose ourselves in marriage and in the daily flow of life. We settle into a comfortable routine. Paying bills, television, housework, the necessary activities take the place of living life to the fullest.

As painful as all of this is, this will be your chance to grow like you never have before in your life. One day at a time.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/24/09 01:48 PM
Thanks Wifey. Yeah, it's tough. i think I'm making progress, but it's incremental, and I go back and forth. My desire to go to her room and climb into bed with her this morning is overwhelming. I can see myself doing it. But of course I won't. I keep reminding myself, as hard as this is, I'm not lying on the bottom of the shower anymore, I"m not laying in bed for half the day anymore. I'm focusing at work better. I don't feel completely lost anymore.
Posted By: Coach Re: BillM's new thread - 09/24/09 01:52 PM
Quote:
My desire to go to her room and climb into bed with her this morning is overwhelming.


Just replace the urge with something productive.

- Do 20 push-ups
- pray
- play with the dog
- read
- call a friend
- make a list of goals

You can handle it.
Posted By: Esox Re: BillM's new thread - 09/24/09 01:59 PM
Bill,

I know what you are going through is hard, but I think there are a few things that you can do to help you not focus on your situation, at least for a while.

Look all you really have in this life is this moment. Right here and right now. Stop for a second and breathe. Notice what if feels like to just sit and breathe. Sit for a moment and just listen to the sounds you hear. You seem so distracted in this relationship, what your wife may feel, what she may do, that you are missing the simple small things in life that, frankly, are all we really have.
Posted By: C-Bart Re: BillM's new thread - 09/24/09 03:56 PM
Good post Esox.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/24/09 03:57 PM
Hey guys -

Well, it's as simple as getting into the shower, getting ready for work, and proceeding with the day. There are other things to focus on, yes. I'm getting there. It's not easy, but I'm getting there. Waking up in the morning is hard, but it does seem like it's getting incrementally better.

This morning was interesting. W made (welll, heated up) breakfast for me, sought me out for hugs 3 times. Said at one point, she thinks she's struggling with things because she's not getting this regular attention from me. I believe she said again that she likes being around me...

So, trying to balance between not pusuing, and my C's statement that I should start working on reconnecting with her (dating, etc.) I said, let's go out - do some of those things that we've been taking about. You need some fun.

She agreed. Said - oh, what if it makes things harder - but that's what you want, isn't it? She said, what about you, you need fun too, right?

I said - I am having fun. She asked what I meant - I said getting out, meeting new people (the support group). And she said - that's pretty amazing, you're not a people person.

So anyway, she's incrementally closer today.

Is it because she's drained? Kids have been challanging this week.
Is it because I went out last night to the support group?
Is it because I gave her more attention on Monday?
I don't know. Maybe it's just the regular tide of this situation.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/24/09 03:59 PM
Esox, I agree, it really helps when I get out of my head and foucs on what's going on right here, right now. I feel like I'm focusing more on the things I need to do, maybe I'm laughing more than I was. Thanks for the reminder.
Posted By: Esox Re: BillM's new thread - 09/24/09 05:16 PM
Bill,

If you want to spend some time with your wife then do it. Do it because it is something that you want to do for Bill or something because it is just a simple kindness shared with your wife. Just don't do it to elicit a response from your wife. If you do it as a precursor to a response that you desire you are just defeating the intent.

Try to smile more Bill. Laugh when you can. Make someone’s life a little easier today just because. You will probably find that your mood lightens.

I’ve been trying to lighten my mood lately. What I’m trying to do, and it is hard for me as I am an introvert, is to make eye contact with the people I pass in the hall, and then I smile. It is hard at first. But I would guess 8 out of 10 people smile back. Do you know how long it has been since I’ve had many people smile at me in a day? Years probably. Perhaps this is a simple thing and of no real value, but it is to me lately, and that is enough.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/26/09 03:30 PM
Thought we'd made some progres Thurs / Fri. Thursday we shared some minor intimcay, after which she cried a little, said that I only want her when she talks about divorce, when she's "forbidden fruit", then if she came back it would just go back to the way it was. Friday morning, she wasn't getting up so I popped in to wake her - she pulled back the covers for me to get in, and we spent some time together.

She appeared to be confused and conflicted about this (and I mean that in a good way). She responded to it, within her boundaries. Said, I'm going to have to journal about why I'm letting you do this... It certainly affected her. She joked at one point that we could get divorced and be lovers. What a strange thing to say.

Counciller said, this is going to be the only way, working on the intimcay connection, and I know last time we went through this, that was the breakthrough. And she said this is different than pursuit.

But now she's away for the weekend, and I know she's not where she says she is. I know she's seeing this other guy. I've seen the messages. I talked to her on the phone yesterday, finally said, I shouldn't get into this, but I really hope you're keeping your word to me. And she said, I wouldn't do anything to hurt you, I still feel a devotion to you. She said, I'm already dealing with so many things already, I can't take on another attachment, that's why it was so easy to agree to break this off. That's what she said. It was so natural. I wanted to believe her. But I know she's lying. I don't know what she's doing - I want to imagine the best, and I want to imagine the worst.

I don't know if posting this stuff make it better or worse. Seems sometimes like coming to the message board makes me ruminate more. Anyway, this is something I cannot accept, that I cannot control, and makes me feel pathetic that I still want my W back. I know in her mind, she's filed for divorce and probaby feels that she's not accountable to me, all the while needs to keep the peace.

As hard as this is to deal with, I recognize that I cannot focus on it. If I make it an issue, I give it more energy, W feels like she's got to reassure me, I look weak. If I say "you're lying," she just says "you don't trust me." Then she moves on to, let's just alternate weekends without having to tell each other what we're doing, because that's the way it's going to be anyway when this is done.

I read most of "No more Mr. Nice Guy" last night. Some things don't apply, some things do. I certainly have made my wife my emotional center.

I talked to the Retro guy last night, got all the info. Still need to hear back from MIL if she can take the kids. W was concerned if we were going to have to share a room, which is indeed how they have it set up, although we can get seperate beds. Hopefully she doesn't use this as an excuse to pull out. The overall cost (registration + suggested donation) is $700 - again, I hope she doesn't use this as an excuse.

I feel like I'm putting a lot of pressure on mysef here to do things right or wrong - sometimes I feel like I'm taking some risks and I'm clearly "off the reservation", but I also feel like I've got some instincts about what my W is going to respond to.
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/26/09 05:11 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM
Anyway, this is something I cannot accept, that I cannot control, and makes me feel pathetic that I still want my W back. I know in her mind, she's filed for divorce and probaby feels that she's not accountable to me, all the while needs to keep the peace.

As hard as this is to deal with, I recognize that I cannot focus on it. If I make it an issue, I give it more energy, W feels like she's got to reassure me, I look weak. If I say "you're lying," she just says "you don't trust me." Then she moves on to, let's just alternate weekends without having to tell each other what we're doing, because that's the way it's going to be anyway when this is done.

I've felt like that too. But I think most of us here are just really loving, loyal and take our marriage vows seriously kind of people. The opposite of pathetic.

Couple thoughts I had while reading your post. The first that comes to mind is "Cheaters always lie". I've seen that many times, and I think it's true.

I do think you're questioning her about the OM and not doing anything when she lies to you is not a good strategy. Either drop it if you're not willing to set and maintain any boundaries, or set and maintain boundaries about what you find acceptable. I think it sounds like from what you say that your W is cake-eating and I don't think that strategy usually ever works.

I also tend to disagree with what your counselor is saying. You've met with her once now? I think she might have a better advice/counsel after she has met with you for a month or two hopefully. She seems to be suggesting more of the same, what you've been already been doing. I know when I first started reading your posts, I had one idea of you, you very much painted yourself as a self-involved workaholic. I have gotten a much different picture of you as a very loving family guy in the past couple months though. Do you have an appt. with her this week to update her about your sitch?

And btw, my idea about why your W was acting closer was b/c you did go out and GAL by going to that meeting, and she prob. wanted to reassure herself that you were still fully there for her when she feels like cake-eating, getting your emotional support, etc.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/26/09 07:32 PM
Well, pathetic or not, I'm doing better this weekend than previous. Guess I'm coming along. Not great, but, better.

Cheaters always lie. I think I've got to stop making this a factor. I know she's lying about some things, the rest I don't know. I think I have to drop this for now.

What's different about the last couple of days, is that I behaved in a way to make her feel desired. This "Mr Nice Guy" book is providing me some insight I think. I think I've tended to view intimicay as something to please her. To meet her needs. The difference is approaching her because it's what I want. To make her feel desired.

And again, I have some history to believe this is spot-on for my wife. Well, she's said as much. Karen, I don't know, I know this may seem like the wrong thing to do, but it did get a response from her. It seemed to confuse her motives. It made a difference. So, I'm going to monitor results. I feel like I need to stop being afraid of making mistakes - if it goes wrong, then I'll change. She's already filed for D, so not sure what else can go much more wrong.

I don't want to be dismissive - really - but it seemed to make an impact. But yeah, I'm seeing C again on Tuesday.

Yeah - if I'm a workaholic, i don't want to be. I've been extremely burned out. Again, this "Nice Guy" book has some insights - I've felt trapped by what I've felt I'm supposed to do. That's not an excuse. I need to get in a position to make choices from the view of what I want, not out of fear of failure, or some template in my head. I've got some things to figure out about how I deal with my job. Either change the way I feel about it / respond to it, or something else.

Regarding W being closer - well, the kids have been sick and kind of difficult lately. What she said, when I came home Thursday, was that now that she's getting NO attention from me, it's a lot harder than when she was getting SOME attention from me. It seems clear that she misses me, she misses the support, companionship, etc. At least to some degree. She said her C told her that she needed to be aloof (I'm paraphrasing), but she said that it's hard to do.

There is definitely still a connection there, FWIW.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/27/09 03:55 AM
Good grief, the urge to call her is so strong. To just talk to her, to "make sure there's nothing going on", to call her just because I miss her... the only reason I'm posting right now is to do something OTHER than calling her. Sheesh. Already called her this morning to tell her the boys are sick, etc. She sounded happy to hear from me.

Arg.
Posted By: Eskimo Nell Re: BillM's new thread - 09/27/09 05:16 AM
This is the hardest part Bill, don't you think? The URGE to talk to the S.

Thanks for dropping in over on my thread - it was good to see you there and get some more encouragement. Looks like we both need all that we can get right now!

It's a beautiful day here in Aus and I am sat in my pyjamas in the study, trying to hide away from a day that couples and families are enjoying, this long, happy, family-oriented weekend.

As you read, I worked in the garden all morning to keep myself busy but after my shower, I just felt like a wilting flower. There's no-one around and everyone in the UK is still in bed, so it's not even like I could ring home right now! I hate being lonely - it's always been something that I despise and something that H knows that I have had nightmares over, for many years. Perhaps I had a premonition that this would be my lot in life again. (I had a previous 8 years relationship that went down the gurgler due to infidelity on bf's part).

Try to resist the urge to call your W at this time, Bill. It's when the urge is strong that we make the mistakes that we do, imho. You have called her once today about the boys (sorry that they are sick, by the way) and if you call again, you may be perceived as being pursuing. Take a leaf out of my book and go out and do something - you can't go far with the boys being unwell of course but there must be some stuff that you can do around the place to keep you away from the phone, right?!

Will check in again later but PLEASE, resist that urge! It won't serve you best right now.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/27/09 05:33 AM
I didn't call. smile It's too late now anyway, and I'm gonna go to bed.

Yeah, just poked around on the computer tonight.

Yeah, with the boys sick today, I just stayed around the house. Didn't do much at all. No GALing today. I actually did spend some time today filling out the financial paperwork for the lawyer. As crappy as that was, made me feel like I had control over something anyway. Went over our taxes and found W has more income than she claimed.

Talked to a friend today, and talked to my sister. Restful day is good, I feel a little cough lately too so hopefully it won't take hold. And as important as GALing is, I was kind of glad to have an excuse to not worry about it today. I'm feeling incrementally better than I have been, so that's good. I guess I miss her less than I did an hour or two ago. Getting on the message board helped.

Well, W is back tomorrow. We've got a Cub Scout function.

Uuuhhhggg, I don't know what she's done this weekend.

Well, she's still up for Retro, we talked about it this morning. I know she's resolute in her mind, not planning to budge, but we'll see what happens.

Thanks Nell, it's good to talk (or type I guess) - thanks for checking in. smile
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/28/09 12:44 AM
Well, W came home.

Cuddled up to me a little bit. Rubbed my shoulders. Gave affection. Said that she thought the Retro weekend is going to be good.

Things are just a little different.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/28/09 04:26 AM

Well, W happily sang while I played guitar tonight.

I pushed the intimcay too far now, she's shored up her boundaries. Said her friend told her she should get a vibrator so she can resist me, she thought that was funny. Need to pull back now and not pursue.

At one point when I was teasing her she asked me when I got so "saucy". Well I guess at least I'm projecting confidence.

Yeah, I'll consult with C. Figure out what's next.
Posted By: Eskimo Nell Re: BillM's new thread - 09/28/09 06:36 AM
Bill,
((Well done)) on not calling - if you can keep yourself busy until you know it's too late in the evening to call, it always feels like you have conquered a big mountain - I know, because I have done it! May be nothing to others who find it easy to dismiss calls and texts but for us, it's huge. *Big pat on the back* to you my friend!

For anyone outside looking in, the scene of W singing and you playing guitar must have been just like looking in on the Waltons! I believe these to be dangerous times and, as you say next, she shored up her boundaries. This is pullback time and, from what I gather from the folk here who it has happened to, it's not pleasant. Prepare yourself.

Crass remarks from friends are harmful. There's nothing that you can do about them if your W chooses to think it funny and repeat them in front of you but I truly hope that you ignored the remark - if I had been told something similar, I would have been very hurt. You don't have to put up with that. It needs a stern put down and to my mind, that is for you not to have commented upon it. I wonder what you said? Typical of someone who has no idea of how hurt you are, or of what their precious friend is doing in her life - or to her family. Friends are as dangerous, if not moreso, than the WAS at this stage in the game.

For what it's worth, and I have viewed this in Oz's situation, to start detaching yourself a little would be a great thing. Start acting mysterious around W and make sure that you are the one to go to bed first. Take a 'mysterious' phone call from time to time and do the opposite of what you think W would be expecting of you in a given circumstance (time for 180's). Certainly sounds like she is cake-eating to me and (sorry for the upcoming 2x4) but you are putting the cake on a plate with a frilly doilly and almost feeding it to her off a silver fork! She is not feeling the consequences of her actions as you appear to be rewarding her ...

I'm not advocating that you go all out to spoil any baby steps that you have made and it would be foolish to jeopardise the Retro weekend but I see your W as having the best of both worlds right now. She's moving forth and yet still expecting to get comforts from you. Not acceptable my friend. I know that the temptations are great but you are leaving yourself open for more hurt Bill. Try to gather some strength and DB a little harder!
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/28/09 02:00 PM
Hey Nell -

I know, I know. Karen, GIMA, and others have told me the same thing.

I know I've taken what C has said as license. Stepped over the line to pursuit. Still, if the main point for W is intimacay, I'm trying to figure out how to address this in her mind.

On Thursday, when she was seeking out hugs, saying how she missed attention, I thought I could reel her in. Her will was weak.

Now it just hurts so much more. I didn't spent the weekend doing much except thinking about all this. I'm still waking up every day and feeling devistated and heartbroken. I feel a great deal of pressure on myself to take responsiblity of my emotional life and get to feeling better.

Yeah, I know, I need to pull back.

I'm stuck. I mean I've got to admit, I still feel like I crave her. I've got to change my focus.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/28/09 02:03 PM

I'm allowing something wrong here. I'm still allowing W to be my emotional center when she's the one hurting me. I wait for her to get home, and then it hurts. I home home looking forward to seeing her, and it hurts.

I've got to be stronger.
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/28/09 02:47 PM

Quote:
I know I've taken what C has said as license. Stepped over the line to pursuit. Still, if the main point for W is intimacay, I'm trying to figure out how to address this in her mind.
I agree with this. And the C doesn't know your sitch that well yet. The more you let her know your sitch, I think the more helpful she'll be. And you have been pursuing, and I don't think your C would recommend that hopefully. I've seen this lately, someone in my life has been very pursuing, and it's a turnoff.

The vibrator friend of your W's sounds like poison, for your W and your marriage and family. Does she hang out with many friends like that? I think often times the friends you spend with can be very influential, either positive or negative.

I think detaching is very important. It helps lessen the pain and is esp. good for you. Someone posted a link to detachment and I love it and have read it several times. It's at: http://www.livestrong.com/article/14712-developing-detachment/
I don't think you can DB for very long without working on detachment.

I think you have gotten some great advice from Nell. Work on 180s, GAL sometimes away from your home, and GAL with your kids too. And everything that Nell said. smile
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 09/28/09 02:58 PM
Quote:
I'm stuck. I mean I've got to admit, I still feel like I crave her. I've got to change my focus.


You don't have to kill your feelings. You just have to CONTROL them.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/28/09 03:11 PM
Yeah. Thanks guys. I know I'm trashing around...

I went in to tell W that it was getting late and she should get up... and she pulled the covers back for me to get in "just for a moment."

See, last time around I would have seen this as a baby step. This is part of my problem I think - having been through this before, I want to map what happened then to what's happening now. Having W open up in this way was big the 1st time.

OK - have to go -
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/28/09 07:41 PM
Thrashing, not trashing. smile

W has surrounded herself with friends that are going through seperation or divorce, have gone through divorce, or are unhappy in their marriages.

C did say take her out... W has agreed, I'm working on sitter arrangements. I'll revisit this with C tomorrow.

Well, I called and verified they've vacated the court date for 10/1.

Also over the weekend I worked on some of the financials. W owns a business, so her income is a bit tricky - but I did find documentation in our taxes to say she made much more than she claimed to in the papers she's filed. Sent an email to my L. Kind of felt relieved and horrible at the same time. This is one of her primary fears - how she's going to make it.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/29/09 02:55 AM
I'm amazed at how rapidly I can go from falling apart to feeling normal - intact. Hopefully I can hold on to this.

W is cranky, kids have been difficult today. I needed to work tonight. Feeling much less needy.

I know I'm going to be OK on the other side of this. I know I'm an intact person.

Well, I know the roller coaster doesn't stop. Anyway, that's it for tonight.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/29/09 04:33 AM
Aha - she's cranky because she's worried about money. She paid the bills tonight, commented about how she's going to have to get used to not having money.

I just said, "yep"

Our son lost a tooth, wrote a letter to the tooth fairy asking for more than he usually gets. This bothered my W a great deal, thinking about money and how things are going to change. Also in this conversation she also commented that the kids are going to get a big dose of reality soon, and that she's not ready to take the tooth fairy away from them.

She brought up the cost of Retro, and to my discredit, I said, you chose to spend money on a lawyer, I'll spend money on this. She said, you spent money on a lawyer too, and I said, well that wasn't my choice.

Then she asked me why I'm being so nasty tonight.

Yeah, now I'm getting pissed off. Why is she doing this??

Anyway, I softened up and listened to her worries. Didn't say much more about it.

Well my MIL will watch the kids for that weekend. I need to register.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/29/09 05:29 AM
Well, the good news is that I really didn't pursue tonight. Just sat on the other side of the room. She made a point of saying, how was your day, and I looked over and she waved at me.

Once we had the conversation about money, she decided to go downstairs to her room. I did check on her after awhile because she was upset, talked for a couple of minutes, not sure if that was good or bad. She thanked me for it.

The other good news is that my appetite has returned. Seems like suddenly I've got to eat dinner twice. Those 20 pounds may be on their way back.

Ok I really need to go to bed.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/29/09 07:58 PM
Well, C listened to my week.

Yeah - said W is getting best of both worlds, not getting to experience what it's like to be without me. She asked me why I don't move out for a little while.

I'm not prepared to move out right now, but I need to change what I'm doing.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/30/09 04:23 AM
So - completed the Retro paperwork, wrote out the registration check. Hopefully there won't be any problem at this point with the weekend being 10/9.

I told W thank you for doing it. She said, "I'm doing it because I care about you. Everybody thinks I'm crazy."

Crazy? Really? I wanted to ask questions about this but I didn't. What kind of world do we live in where this would be crazy??

We both have a detached attitude tonight. Some days she's playful, some days she tells me she misses me - right now she's got her walls up. I'm not feeling so needy either. That's good.
Posted By: Lotus Re: BillM's new thread - 09/30/09 05:53 AM
Congratulations on taking a big step. In my opinion, your situation isn't that bad. I've seen MUCH worse marriages turned around in two days at Retrouvaille. But shhh!, don't tell your wife!
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/30/09 04:14 PM
Thanks Lotus - I'm hopeful.

W has brought down the walls. Barely talking all of a sudden. Went from pulling back the sheets for me on Monday morning to completely businesslike now.

I didn't realize how much I was depedent on seeing through her cracks. Feeling a lot of anxiety now.

Well, I've got to deal with it. Just feeling more and more alone. On the other hand, I guess she was enabling me to cling on.

It was really cold this morning, she was bundled up on the couch. Yeah, I sat down close by and said, man it's cold... are you warm?

She just said, I guess. Up until recently we would have still gotten close.

Gaaaaaaaa...

But, this is a good lesson for me to detach more.
Still not sleeping. Ok gotta go.
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 09/30/09 05:34 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM
T

W has brought down the walls. Barely talking all of a sudden. Went from pulling back the sheets for me on Monday morning to completely businesslike now.

Yes, a good lesson. You need to work on detaching and being more independent. Even if you weren't going through this, you shouldn't be so affected by your W's moods, good or bad. Something you need to work on.

Your C suggested working on intimacy the first session, then moving out the 2nd. I think a wise C would probably not give too much advice about stuff the first few sessions, until they get to know more details of the sitch. If she had said you should move out after a couple months in counseling, I would listen to that more. I would think the only rush to get out of the house for a married person is if there is abuse, or addiction. And living with a person having an A is difficult too. But anyway, just take her recommendations with a grain of salt for now I think.

You seem to look at your W's actions/attitude and decide each day "there's hope" or "there's not much hope". I think you just can't tell right now. I just saw my D attorney, and I will tell you, your W is in fantasyland right now. The reality of divorce is horrible. I am going to miss seeing my kids most likely half the year, and that's with an X that was a very uninvolved parent, money problems, etc. I think D is way tougher than your W realizes at this point, and you have time.
Posted By: C-Bart Re: BillM's new thread - 09/30/09 05:53 PM
IMHO an IC should be focus just on you and your issues. A failing M is not an issue it is a symptom of a greater issue. I made this mistake of thinking my IC would fix my marriage and was corrected by her rather quickly. She would give me some insight as to what my W may be going through but would always qualify that by saying it was speculation.

You are your life manager and the IC is just a consultant hired to help with individual issues. One issue you need to look at is why your moods are dependent on your W's. You've got a good idea why - Mr. Nice Guy.

Be selfish. Focus on yourself.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/30/09 05:55 PM
Yeah Karen, your're right. I'm way too affected by W. I know it. I know in my head I've got to change this.

Anyway, I'm not preparing to move out. I do think that she had a good point in giving her room to miss me. Anyway, I'm going out the next 2 nights, W asked to go out Friday. THis weekend we've got plans to do something as a family.

I've still got this open "going out together" thing for the weekend - torn about calling it off vs. following through.

We're gearing up for the legal stuff too. I think that's also affecting me - this is about to get much more real.

THanks Karen - You're really helping. smile
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/30/09 05:56 PM
OK C-Bart you made me chuckle. Yes.
Posted By: JayMan Re: BillM's new thread - 09/30/09 06:00 PM
I'd be hard pressed as to why you would ever move out anyway? You're not the one who needs space?

My W demanded I move out, and I said, "No". She moved out then, and it has put me in a great spot legally.

I hope you and your W work things out, but moving out is a BAD idea.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 09/30/09 06:20 PM
C thought this would be a good way for my W to experience the reality of divorce. Said I'm too available to W. Yes, you guys have all already told me this. smile Essentially said she's cake-eating - best of both worlds.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 10/01/09 05:03 AM
Just kind of journaling.

Well, went to the DivorceCare meeting tonight. W took boys to cub scouts. She's definitely detaching more. I tend to believe she's making herself do it, based on some of the things she's said before.

When I came home, she mentioned I was in an upbeat mood. So that's good. Talked about the kids a little bit.

I've got band practice tomorrow night. Another night out.
Posted By: karen43 Re: BillM's new thread - 10/01/09 12:28 PM
That's good that you're GALing. I think that's also a way to help you detach and not be so available to your W and less drastic than moving out. Don't forget to GAL with your kids too. You could take them someplace fun and not invite your wife. If she wants separate lives...then she should be fine with that.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 10/02/09 01:39 AM

Well......

W had agreed to go out with me this weekend. Tonight I looked at the babysitter's phone number and said - do you really want to do this, or are you just humoring me?

She said, well if you put it that way...
We can skip it.

She seemed mildly agitated for a moment.

yeah, I cancelled our date.

Feeling angry now, thinking about the legal stuff. Seems going on a date with her would be just too painful.

Of course, her complaint used to be that I never called the babysitter. I hope I did the right thing.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 10/02/09 01:40 AM
Funny, I think I'm swinging from being without her is painful, to being with her is painful.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 10/02/09 04:17 AM
Wow. It all came out tonight... wasn't planned.

Told her that, I had said before I don't know what I look like on the other side of this - but now I do, and I know I'm going to be OK. I'm sad because I don't want to not miss her.

She offered a hug, but I waved her away -

Told her that we're about to go through this process, the legal and financial part of this. We come out the other side, we're not going to be friends, we're not going to be family.

And I said, I've got to stop loving you.

Well, she said she'd always be open to being friends; she wasn't sure what else to say or do because I wouldn't ler her hug me.

Crap. I said all this because I meant it.

I'm sending the tax info to my lawyer; I'm preparing to protect myself. For once I'm starting to feel like myself again, seeing myself as an indepdendent person and being OK with that.

I was really struggling with seeing this legal process as an act of betrayal - here's the woman I'm supposed to provide for, to partner with, and I'm gearing up to fight her. She's expecting some ridculous amount of support, and telling herself that she's going easy.

If I don't let go, and we go through this, I'm going to hate her. I've got to stop giving up myself here. Right now I've got to focus on my needs.

The funny thing is, after awhile, I went out and watched TV with her. Sat on the other side of the room. She was sniffling just a little, after awhile she laid down on the couch with her head towards me - have never seen her do this before - almost like she was trying to get closer to me. Tried to chat a little. When the show was over, she said thanks for coming out and watching with me.

Feel like I took some of my power back tonight. I had given it all up.

I'm not out of the game. I'm just starting to see things differently.

Retro is 10/9. Waiting for them to confirm the registration.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 10/03/09 02:10 PM
Well, it's definitely true - I get closer, she pulls away. I pull away, she gets closer.

After our talk on Thursday, I guess she was really down yesterday. Last night, she started by seeking out hugs, progressed to pulling me down to sit with her on the couch, and finally to climbing on top of me, and stayed there hugging me. She rubbed my feet, spend some time being close which we watched TV. All initiated by her.

Told me again, she felt like she can't bear to lose me, that I've been the most stable relationship in her life.

It impressed her that she saw me cry a little on Thursday - she said - you never cry - I never saw you cry even when your mother passed.

Yeah, I have that urge again to go get into bed with her this morning, but it's not so strong. Going to let her come to me. If she does.

Time to be patient. I can do this.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: BillM's new thread - 10/03/09 02:19 PM
Bill,

Stay strong. Now is NOT the time to be weak. Get out of the house if you need to.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 10/03/09 04:47 PM
I'm cool.

Family outing today. Should be fun.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 10/03/09 09:55 PM
Wow, good day. We all went up to Apple Hill, which is a collection of apple farms up in the foothills. Kids had a good time, W and I had a good time...

So W says, too bad we cancelled the babysitter for tonight, she wants to go out and have fun with me alone. So - I set it up, we're going out tonight. Because W asked to.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 10/03/09 09:57 PM
Funny, she said - she was thinking she needed to leave to have fun, feel good, whatever - then she says, but we're having fun today, right?

Karen - so, yeah, not a hope / no hope reaction.
Just a good sign.

All this because I said, we're not going to be friends, I'm going to stop loving you? Or something going on with her? Don't know.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: BillM's new thread - 10/03/09 10:54 PM
Hm - and she comes in here a little while ago, gives me a hug, and says, I can't get you out of my head. What are you doing in there?

Leaving in half an hour... hopefully will be a good night.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Need input - 10/04/09 03:30 PM
OK guys - I really need some input now.

Leading up to last night - Thursday I cancelled our date for this weekend, and gave my W the speech about how we're not going to be friends.

Friday she was really clingy to me.

Yesterday, we went out as a family, and W said she did want to go out, so I called the babysitter.

Last night - we went to see a movie. Normal stuff. We went to dinner. I had a beer, W had a glass of wine. Had a good time. Then we decided we wanted to stay out. Had an idea of where to go, but as we were exiting the complex, I saw a friend of mine performing on the patio of a resturant - I said, hey that's Tim, we parked the car and went in.

I had another beer, W had another glass of wine, we had a great conversation, told each other all the things we like about each other, started singing along to the songs. W got a 3rd glass of wine - after a brief rain, we went back out and sat next to each other on a bench - W kissed me - so we made out. A lot. Right there in public, on the wet bench. Every so often, she said things like, this is not like you, you've never kissed me like that, why haven't you taken me out like this before, we should do this more.

Came home - I took the babysitter home, W changed into "nice" underwear - said she bought it for me a long time ago - and we ML.

Now - here's the kicker. Immediately afterwards, she viewed this as a mistake. Kept saying, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I don't want to hurt you, this doesn't feel right, I was so lonely, I was being selfish, I'm so drunk... she got into the bathtub - I got in with her - and she was completely into the "this was a mistake mode." Oh, and she's dreading telling her therapst of all things. Said I'd need to give her some space today, if she wasn't able to look me in the eye...
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/04/09 04:41 PM

This morning she's feeling depressed, says she feels like she wants to sleep all day, saying she's feeling bad about last night, asking if I'm OK, saying she's not sure she can do 5 months of this, it's too long.

Need to give her space today...
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: Need input - 10/04/09 06:04 PM
She scared herself. The pull back is to be expected.

Give her room and no pressure. Acting like nothing happened would not be a bad idea. If she wants to talk about it, then talk, but keep it light.
Posted By: karen43 Re: Need input - 10/04/09 10:23 PM
I expected that. You pull back from pursuiting her, she pursuits/chases you, then you stop detaching, and she pulls back again. You need to detach and when she shows signs of interest then not completely go back into pursuit mode. Unless you want to keep doing this over and over for the next 5 months or even longer.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/05/09 12:13 AM
Yeah - I know. Stay detached. Didn't really spend a lot of time with her today.

Actually, she's really been struggling today, feeling depressed. She was by herself for a good while, she said that she had a good cry.

We talked briefly about how it was fun to go out last night, then she said, "but it got out of hand. We can't do that again. I'm not going to drink anymore."

Well, we're doing pizza and a movie tonight. Back into family mode. I guess I was hoping, last night, that this was a turning point - but patience. I know. Doesn't happen overnight.

In the meantime, I know I can't pursue. Just need to continue to detach.

Retro is next weekend.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/05/09 04:25 AM
Sheesh.

The Retro people called a little while ago, wanted to speak to us both to complete the registration. W refused to do so, saying that she's not going to go if they require her to get on the phone. Finally she did, listened for a little while, but cut the woman off and handed the phone back to me.

Well, she did register us, even though she didn't finish the deal.

W is really touchy and raw... she is unconvinced this is going to do any good - saying the phone call was a control thing, these people aren't real therapists, the religion aspect really bothres her, she doesn't want to be talking to anyone about our R, she'd rather we use the time to just "go have fun."

I explained that from my understanding, it's just a matter of us talking to each other. We're not receiving counciling.

She still says she'll go because I'm asking her to. Is afraid of giving me false hope. I told her, let me worry about my own stuff. She said that she is where she is on this, and that this doesn't seem appropriate because she's not in the space of "working on it."

Said that we're not the typical couple, we don't hate each other - everyone that's privy to our situation says we're not typical.

Said the woman was patronizing and she found it offensive, getting her on the phone was simply a control thing. The sort of thing she hates about therapists and religion.

Well, she packed up and went to bed.

She is so raw right now.

I'm just really scared now. I do have a lot of hopes pinned on this, although I won't admit it to her. I really hope she doesn't back out here before Friday.

I've got to tread lightly.

I don't know what else to do now except pray.

Some weekend.
Posted By: Lotus Re: Need input - 10/05/09 06:03 AM
Sounds fine to me. Just go. They are not controlling. They don't use religion to control you. She will see what it is. She won't be the first difficult case to walk through the door. I once heard of a wife who tried to run the husband down in the parking lot before their retrouvaille weekend. Leaders came out and talked them into staying for the weekend. They not only stayed for the weekend, they reconciled, and now they are Retrouvaille leaders themselves. Who knows? Maybe they will be at your session!
Posted By: karen43 Re: Need input - 10/05/09 04:13 PM
It sounds like she's preparing to waffle out of the weekend if at all possible. Be prepared for that. If she does, I wouldn't just go somewhere and have fun with her. If she doesn't choose to work on your marriage, then I think you will have to pull back, detach, and stop the cake-eating. Even if she does go, you need to try to remain detached, be strong, no one weekend is going to make or break your marriage.

Your W sounds like a typical WAS mess, and like living on a rollercoaster. You need to detach from that, so you don't have so many ups and downs....





Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/06/09 04:32 AM
Thanks guys -

We seem to be still on.

Pretty uneventful night. We watched TV together. Then she went off to her room.

Funny, she touched my arm at dinner, and I thought, oh, we're starting the cycle again.

Yeah, trying to keep my head on straight, Karen.

I dropped off paperwork for my lawyer today. Not looking forward to this phase.
Posted By: karen43 Re: Need input - 10/06/09 11:04 PM
Quote:
Pretty uneventful night. We watched TV together. Then she went off to her room.
2 suggestions: if you do that again, then you try to leave the room first. Also, more GALing please, watching TV doesn't count!!! GALing is good for you and takes the pressure/pursuit off your W. Very important part of DBing.
Quote:
I dropped off paperwork for my lawyer today. Not looking forward to this phase.
Totally sucks, but remember your W is going through this too, and will give her a dose of reality hopefully.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/07/09 01:33 AM
Well, I worked much of the night, and you know, Heroes was on after that. Well, I've got my DivorceCare meeting tomorrow, that'll get me out of the house. Have band practice on Thursdays, but has been getting cancelled a lot lately.

Talked to C, she said that W seems very confused, or scared to trust me with her heart. Said W responds to me backing off, so don't let her eat cake anymore.

W is still depressed - says she can't get up the gumption to do what she needs to. She hugged me for a long while tonight. Said "you're a really good guy..."

Says that she's thinking about sleeping at home for Retro. I told her I asked about that, but they said it wouldn't work with the program. She laughed it off, said it was silly. She's determined to take back some amount of control with this thing...

Yeah, dose of reality - hope that goes well. Feel like, when the guns come out it'll be hard to put them away. Well, who knows, it's inevitable. Yeah you're right, she did it too. Not like I can just lie down.

Thanks Karen smile
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/07/09 07:10 PM

Hm. Well I just talked to her on the phone. She said she wanted to cancel the weekend because it's a lot of money, and she thinks it'll be upsetting and make things worse between us.

I didn't say anything - she asked me, do you still really want to go? I said yeah, and she said, "OK then, I'll go. I just can't say no to you. I don't know what's up with that."

Sigh. Just a couple more days. Hopefully this is going to happen.

Didn't really talk to her much last night. Went to bed and read a book - when she went downstairs, she called goodnight in kind of a strange tone - not sure if this stumped her somehow. We were both aloof this morning.

Tough day - didn't sleep right, and was really struggling this morning. All I can say is thank God for Xanex.
Posted By: Lotus Re: Need input - 10/07/09 08:39 PM
You're doing great. Just get her in the door. They will do the rest.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/07/09 11:22 PM
Thanks Lotus.

Yeah, just going to take it easy.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/09/09 03:41 AM
Well, she's cool with going now. Said she was worried about how this is going to affect me, but realized I told her I can worry about myself.

I don't know, maybe there's something wrong in a relationship where she's always worried about how things affect me. I married a "caretaker"...

Anyway, she's on the phone with her mom, saying that there's no way back. Same story. She looks to the future and is 100% sure that things would fall into old patterns.

Just kind of rolls of my back I guess. Old news. She's still certain.

Well, if miracles happen at Retro, I can sure use one. smile

Seriously, I guess what happens happens. Not about hope at this point, it's about doing everything I can.
Posted By: Lotus Re: Need input - 10/09/09 03:54 AM
Let us know how it goes. I hope she will remember that she promised to go with an open mind and a willing heart.
Posted By: ClingingToHope Re: Need input - 10/09/09 03:54 AM
Hey, at least she's willing to give it that last shot. My W is so certain she told me the only thing holding her up is money and I'm free to go out with anyone I want.

That hurts more than flip-flopping. I've spent the past two days researching ways to make a D affordable for her. If she wants one, I'll do what I've done for 13 years, do what I can to make her happy.

I wish you the best. I wish my W would care enough to even make the effort.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/09/09 06:10 AM
I am grateful to have this opportunity. Thanks for the well wishes, guys.
Posted By: karen43 Re: Need input - 10/12/09 04:56 PM
So how did your weekend go??? whistle
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/12/09 06:01 PM
He he - I was just checking in - was too exhausted to post last night.

Well - good and bad. We did have a great time spending that time together talking.

I can summarize W's perspective as - she loves everything about me, about our relationship - but wrote that she has a 10 out of 10 sense of hopelessness about our sexual / intimate relationship.

In our last exercise, I wrote that I know what she's missing. That the things I feel I have somehow not shown her. But that I do feel those things, the passion for her.

She started crying when she read this, and said "I want to hit you." We talked about all this.

I spent some time crying too - 10/10 sense of hopelessness, that just seems to say it all. I felt at rock bottom after that.

She did say that she felt very close to me after the weekend. We drove home seperately, and when we got home she said that she wanted to be joined at the hip with me. Pulled me into a room and said that, all these good things about our relationship - that she doesn't think she'll find someone else like me - that there's just this one thing, but it's a big thing...

So, the rest of the night, she kept pulling me close... like while we were watching a movie with the kids. She wend to bed, then came back up to talk to me - said that she was very confused about me right now.

She has agreed to keep "dialogueing" with me - the technique presented at the weekend - said that we should go out together - said that she's not working on it, but clearly she's willing to do SOMETHING like that.

So, no breakthrough - and at points I was at a point of dispair. RIght now, i don't know.

After we got home, she asked me what passion felt like to me - we talked about how I experience it, and she received it well - we agreed that our last weekend, when we were out, she had seen passion from me that she hadn't seen before, while we were kissing.

I had written to her that I don't know why things are like this. Part of it is medical - I am being treated for low testosorone - but part of it is, somehow in our dynamic, it's true I have rarely showed her raw passion. I've been conservative, reserved with her - and she said that she experiences a very high libedo, she craves sex every day...

So there we are. I don't know if I'm hopeful, or what. But we did re-connect. There is SO MUCH there.

She said this morning she woke up crying, and emailed her friend about the weekend. Now we're back in real life, I don't know.

Right now I'm going to capitolize on the openness - see where this goes to.

It was an intense, exhausting, weekend. Definitely closer, but clearly no miracle.
Posted By: undrdg Re: Need input - 10/12/09 10:01 PM
BillM

One word. Viagra. I think that will help. And not because of ED but because of the effects of V.
Posted By: Looking_For_Help Re: Need input - 10/12/09 10:49 PM
Hey Bill,

From my perspective, Retrouvaille was quite successful for you guys. This is what I understand: (1) she feels closer to you now than b/f the weekend, (2) she agreed to continue with the dialogue, (3) she kept pulling you close last night, (4) she experienced "passion" from a kiss like she hasn't felt from you in a while, and (5) she wants to go out together.

IMHO, you have your miracle but just don't see it yet. Congratulations...you reconnected! You guys are on the right path. My W and I go to Retrouvaille this Friday...I pray and hope to have similar results. Wish me luck.

Kind Regards,
LFH
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/13/09 04:00 AM
Hey UD - the testosterone gel has largely done the job, but yeah I've used that before -

LFH - thank you for the encouragement.
I came home tonight, she was in the bath and OK with me coming in to talk as long as I didn't look. She said "I still feel close to you!" Said she'd been thinking about me all day.

Doesn't want to do the dialogue anymore - saying that we're good at talking anyway.

Said that she's still mad and wants to hit me - saying that the weekend made her realize how much she doesn't want the relationship to end, and she's mad at me even though it's not my "fault". Says she wants to enjoy this time with me that we have left.

When I tried to nuzzle her neck a little, she told me to cut it out. She kissed me on the cheek at one point, but at another point when we were nuzzling faces, she told me not to kiss her.

Watching a movie with the kids, she wanted me close so she could put her legs on me, but not with my arm around her.

I don't know what to think at this point - and yes, it's just a matter of being patient I guess. This business of pull-push, of not wanting to end it but doing it anyway... I don't know.

Seems some of this is in the right direction, but also seems like it's more of the same - Karen predicted this - she comes closer, I pursue a little bit. So we've reconnected - now do I pull back? DBing would suggest so.

I've got a C appointment tomorrow. Guess I'll have a lot to talk about.

I hope you're right. I hope we can keep stepping down this path.

LFH, I wish you the best of luck for this weekend! It's a good experience. Don't plan on getting much sleep. smile
Posted By: Lotus Re: Need input - 10/13/09 05:03 AM
Bill, glad the weekend was good for you. We enjoyed our time at Retrouvaille and had good results. The Post sessions are extremely helpful too. They go a lot further than the weekend. Lot's of reinforcement of what works in a marriage. Not just the dialoguing. My H wanted to just talk too. But we had felt so close using dialogue, I didn't want to give it up. So we compromised. Dialogued 3 times a week, talked the rest. Know what? The talking wasn't as good. It got rolled over and we didn't really do it some nights.

Best of luck with the weekend. LFH. I hope you have a good result too. Don't hesitate to speak to one of the presenters and ask for advice on your particular sitch. They are very experienced and have seen a lot of different relationships. They are there to help you.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/13/09 07:41 PM
I'm really struggling today guys. Feeling depressed and distracted. This whole "we're closer now but still getting divorced" business is killing me. We cuddle up on the couch but that's it.

I left her a message a little while ago saying I hope she's having a good day. Cause you know, "we're closer" now. She said she was thinking about me all day yesterday...

I'm glad I have a C appointment this afternoon.

Well, she said it - she realized how much she doesn't want to lose me - but she has this one big problem. I can't talk my way out of it, I can't show my way out of it if we're not being intimate, and maybe she's right that we're "incompatible" - that scares me. She says that she has no hope of her needs being met in our relationship, and the only way she can see to change that is to leave.

Sorry if I'm repeating prior posts- this is just going around and around in my mind.

Yes, Retro was a positive experience - I just feel like I"m hurting a lot more now. I've gone backwards in my detaching. Seems like I've really jumped into grieving now.

Am I being silly? Am I overlooking something significant? Are my expectations too high? Sigh. Feel like my emotions have the better part of me today. Well, most days.

I feel now like our new closeness from Retro is leading to me leaning on her for comfort, reassurance, whatever. And it's hollow, it just makes me feel worse. It would be great if she'd come out wanting to work on the M - but, what she said is that she wants to enjoy the time with me that we have left.

I still need to let go.
Posted By: undrdg Re: Need input - 10/13/09 08:22 PM
Bill
First of all big breath and step back.

She has said she doesn't want to loose you. That is the biggest positive you can find right now.

Now is the time to be a strong leader. Now it is time to show her that the man she married is right there for her to lean on.

Your closeness is derived from your openness and now that you are open to her, you have to not pull back but not pursue....

As Johnny Cash once said, "because you are mine, i walk the line"

Walk the line bill. Everything will fall in place after.

Intimacy comes as natural as breathing. If you are stressed out it will literally refuse itself.

Be happy.
Be funny.
Be jolly.
And most importantly don't be so hard on yourself (no pun intended)
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/13/09 09:55 PM
Good words. Thank you UD.
Posted By: karen43 Re: Need input - 10/13/09 11:17 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM


I feel now like our new closeness from Retro is leading to me leaning on her for comfort, reassurance, whatever. And it's hollow, it just makes me feel worse. It would be great if she'd come out wanting to work on the M - but, what she said is that she wants to enjoy the time with me that we have left.


I can see why you would want to try to keep your closeness, but with one of you intent on divorcing, how close can that be? And it seems like this new closeness is enjoyable for your W, but is not good for you. You probably already know what I think: you need to detach and go dim, but I wouldn't bother at this point unless you are really make a serious commitment to that. And I'm guessing you aren't....
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/14/09 02:38 AM
Yeah - I'm confused on this one. Trying to get my head around how to build on Retro - but it's kind of predicated on us both working on the M.

Karen, it's crazy-making.

You know, after we got back Sunday night, I popped into my room here, and she came and got me - wanting me to continue to spend time with her.

Right now I'm just going to see what happens I guess.

My C thinks I should initiate a conversation saying, you're confusing me with your mixed signals, I need to know what you want. Well, that's a R conversation, and I can bet what the response will be: I want a divorce. I think my C thinks I'm making it harder on myself by wanting to save the M.

Karen, I know I'm back and forth. Probably frustrating to read.

I will not pursue. I will act as if. I will take care of myself. I will be stonger. And I will monitor.
Posted By: karen43 Re: Need input - 10/14/09 04:13 PM

Quote:
My C thinks I should initiate a conversation saying, you're confusing me with your mixed signals, I need to know what you want. Well, that's a R conversation, and I can bet what the response will be: I want a divorce. I think my C thinks I'm making it harder on myself by wanting to save the M.
I don't see the point in that. I don't think your W has been giving you mixed signals at all. She has been clearly communicating that she wants a D, but she also seems to enjoy cake-eating and enjoying your support. My opinion is you should withdraw that so she becomes aware of what she will be losing after D. I've never seen cake-eating work on these boards. Never.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/14/09 06:48 PM
I don't see the point in that either. I told C as much - she's said what she wants. Bringing up a R discussion will just result in that again. I honestly think that C sees the healthiest step for me is to move on.

I guess I'm having trouble distinguishing baby-steps from cake-eating. I was in bed reading last night when she got home, to some degree because I didn't want to be "waiting for her..." When she got home, she came in - I guess she needed something out of the bathroom - and she lay down with me for a moment, then kissed me on the cheek before she went to bed.

I left her a message yesterday, and she called back and left me a message about how her day was going. Last night she thanked me for calling her, saying it was nice to hear from me during the day.

Are these baby-steps, or cake-eating?

I asked her this morning about dialoguing and the Retro post-sessions, but it seemed like pressuring her.

One of the Retro couples emailed me, and is asking if she can call / email, talk to W. I don't know if that's a good idea - again, pressuring her to work on the marriage. I suppose I'll mention it to her - I don't know about that one though.

Karen, thank you for the input - I'll full admit my head isn't straight on this. Well, I'm going out tonight to the divorce-care meeting, and W has a high-school reunion this weekend - leaving Thursday. So, we're not going to really see each other for a number of days. If not by design, I'll have some time to just be.

Just as an aside, I'm amazed at how I can go from feeling out-of-my-mind to normal in a couple of hours. I'm afraid that, again, it's the Xanex. I'm really frustrated with myself that I continue to be messed up. I'm looking forward to getting better.
Posted By: karen43 Re: Need input - 10/14/09 07:49 PM

Quote:
I left her a message yesterday, and she called back and left me a message about how her day was going. Last night she thanked me for calling her, saying it was nice to hear from me during the day.


Are these baby-steps, or cake-eating? Cake-eating! Don't call her and leave messages unless they're important ones about your kids or something. Otherwise it's pursuit. You've tried the mr. (overly)nice guy with your W for months now; it's not an effective approach if your goals are reconciliation. If it's being a good friend with her after your D, then you're on track.






Quote:
I asked her this morning about dialoguing and the Retro post-sessions, but it seemed like pressuring her.

One of the Retro couples emailed me, and is asking if she can call / email, talk to W. I don't know if that's a good idea - again, pressuring her to work on the marriage. I suppose I'll mention it to her - I don't know about that one though.


I don't think it's pressure if you forward the email to your W with no comment. Didn't she tell you she doesn't want to dialogue with you already? If so, I wouldn't ask her again as that would be pursuit. If she has not made clear re: the dialoguing, then a simple ? asking her to clarify would be fine I think.

Quote:
Just as an aside, I'm amazed at how I can go from feeling out-of-my-mind to normal in a couple of hours. I'm afraid that, again, it's the Xanex. I'm really frustrated with myself that I continue to be messed up. I'm looking forward to getting better.
I was a total crazed mess my first couple months here, a couple more months to feel ok, prob. a year or more till I actually felt good most of the time. This is a rollercoaster process. We're dealing with crazy people (our WAS) and that's very stressful. I think most all of us here are on ADs, as am I, and some of the rest that aren't should probably consider it! smile I think some of this stuff just takes time, and things get slowly better usually.

I took months to stop the doormat, overly nice stuff in my sitch. It didn't help, and made me feel like cr**. But everyone has to go at their own pace on this...
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/15/09 05:44 PM

Well, W wasn't feeling well last night, so I took the boys to their Cub Scout meeting instead of going to DivorceCare, but that was OK.

Later, W said, I'm going to bed - then she stopped and asked if she could cuddle with me while watching TV. So I said OK...

Yes I know - I didn't pursue here, but still not sure if this is baby step or cake-eating. If she's feeling that close to me, do I push her away?

Yes, same question I've been asking. I guess I've got a mental block.

This morning, while I was taking a shower, she came into the bathroom to take a bath. I guess she's getting more comforable with this sort of thing.

After we were dressed, she gave me a big hug and said "I don't want to lose you"

To which I replied, "So don't. I don't want to lose you either."

Yeah, not the best response, but better than "you wont."

We kissed each other on the cheek.

Again, not sure if baby steps, or not.

She did say that she wanted to take the day off and just snuggle with me. I kind of laughed and said, I'll call in sick. Seemed to make an impression on her that I'd blow off work.

She also said that she dreamed she was sleeping in one of my sweatshirts. I guess that's a good sign.

Well, I won't see her again until Sunday.

It seems to really be resonating in her mind since the weekend that she doesn't want to lose me. And the connection still seems to be there.
Posted By: Lotus Re: Need input - 10/15/09 05:50 PM
I get the impression she thinks there is a sexual problem. And you think if she gave you a chance, there wouldn't be one. Was this something you discussed at Retrouvaille? It is a topic in one of the Post sessions, but where we went, it didn't come up till close to the end. Maybe you could discuss intimacy either with a counselor or with the Post couple. Seems like you should be able to get beyond this.
Posted By: Lotus Re: Need input - 10/15/09 05:52 PM
Not sure, but isn't a side effect of xanax loss of sexual desire?
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/15/09 07:09 PM
Yes we discussed it. W wrote that she felt hopelessness about our sexual relationship, at an intensity of 10/10.

In the final exercise, I wrote that I felt the passion for her, it is in me, but somehow this hadn't come out, and I don't know why.

This made her cry and say that she wanted to hit me.

We discussed that to some degree we've both kept each other at arm's length.

I've been taking Xanax regularly only recently.

I suppose that her viewpoint is that after 10 years, it's just that we're incompatible. As much as I can say that this is something we can work on, she says that she has ample evidence that this is the way it is.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/15/09 07:10 PM
Did say she felt "a spark" when we recently went out and made out in public. She said that I've never kissed her like that.

At one point she joked maybe we should keep going out and getting drunk.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/15/09 07:12 PM
She also said that she hears from friends about, how they spend all day in bed being intimate. That's not the kind of thing that we would do. She said that she could have sex every day - so that the once / twice a week cadence isn't enough for her.
Posted By: Lotus Re: Need input - 10/16/09 12:44 AM
Sex everyday is for honeymooners. Once or twice a week is very normal for married people. And the friends may be single and talking about being with a boyfriend. Cuz married people with children don't have time to spend the day in bed together. Unless you go away for a weekend. You could plan on it as well as anyone else.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: Need input - 10/16/09 12:50 AM
Originally Posted By: BillM
She also said that she hears from friends about, how they spend all day in bed being intimate. That's not the kind of thing that we would do. She said that she could have sex every day - so that the once / twice a week cadence isn't enough for her.


Why couldn't things be different Bill? Why not? Even if that is what you normally do, why couldn't you try?

Don't think about every day and weeks and months. Just focus on today. Could you ML today? If you can that would only bring you closer. Don't worry if she's cake-eating right now. For goodness sake, she's saying there's an incompatibility in the bedroom.

While I'm challenging you. Throwing down the gauntlet. Buddy, I know you love her. I've read the words that have poured out of you. You have passion but it doesn't come out? Perhaps you have a wall up to protect yourself. This whole thing has been painful as heck, no doubt. But right now is when you need to tear down the walls.

Focus on today. Then tomorrow focus on that day. One day at a time. Feed her cake until she's on a sugar high she never dreamed of. Do it for both of you.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/16/09 02:55 AM
I think things could be different.

And I think you're right that I have walls up. W said to me at one point that loving me is like running into a brick wall.

I don't want to be that way. Sure, part of my personality, whatever. So yes, this is what needs to change on my part.

W is out of town for the next few days.

When we ML a couple of weeks ago, she immediately called it a mistake.

So Underdog says balance. Somehow I've got to figure out the don't pursue but be open thing. She lets me know now when I push her boundaries.

Well I can rest on this until Sunday.
Here's a funny thing - she said this morning she had a dream that she was sleeping in a particular sweatshirt of mine. It happened to be out, so I jokingly said here it is, take it with you.

It's gone. I think she did take it with her. How about that?

OK, I'll feel dumb when I find it under the bed or something, but still -
Posted By: Looking_For_Help Re: Need input - 10/16/09 03:02 AM
Hey BillM,

Hang in there...you're doing a great job. Take the next few days to pamper yourself. You deserve it.

Also, thanks for your advice regarding my situation.

-LFH
Posted By: Natasha Re: Need input - 10/16/09 10:46 AM
Bill: I've been lurking for some time here. I am married to your "twin". Except my husband and I are about 20 years older than you and your wife. I wish that I had divorced my husband when I was in my thirties, but I did not have the courage. I stayed because I felt it was best for our daughter and son. Maybe I did the right thing, but it doesn't feel that way now. Every morning when the alarm goes off, the first thought I have is "I hate my life." It is an empty and meaningless existence. Yes, I have friends and activities that are worthwhile, but they don't replace the gaping wound in my soul being married to a man with no passion for me, who is so self-absorbed or self-contained that we have not made love in over two years.

When your wife gets back, arrange for your boys to stay with friends or relatives, even for a few hours. Then, don't say anything -- but TAKE your wife. Ravish her. And FEEL it. That would be a real 180 in your situation. Let us know how that goes.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/20/09 06:17 PM
Guys -

I've taken a little bit of a break from the board.
I think I've detached a little more, which is good. Weekend was OK with the boys.

I think I'm ready to do it. Show W the email that shows she's been meeting up with this guy. Tell her I know she's been lying to me.

It's showing all the cards. Telling her that, yeah, I've broken her trust by snooping, but she's broken my trust by lying, and even though she has filed for divorce, disrespecting our marriage. I can't take it anymore. I can't take being a doormat, listening to her tell he that she doesn't want to lose me, kissing me on the cheek, all that business.

She'll get mad, sure. But I'm going to tell her that she doesn't have to worry about losing me anymore, because it's done. It's time for her to move out.

I can't take it. I can't take the pain, I can't take the lying. I need to stand up for myself and feel right about being a human being that deserves to be treated better than this.

I don't know if this is DBing or not, but it gets to the heart of the matter. It'll completely freak her out. I don't know what she'll do, but I'm not trying to manipulate a response.

Talking to C today. Going to get her input.

Any feedback is welcome. Thanks guys.
Posted By: C-Bart Re: Need input - 10/20/09 07:25 PM
Welcome back. I was wondering were you went.

First question for you. What do you want to accomplish? Is it that you want to tell her you know so she will somehow see the light? Or is your goal to set the boundary that you will not share your W with another man.

Your upset. Its ok to be upset but don't act on emotion. That never works to your advantage. You need to approach this in a calm business like manner.

Don't make this about your state of mind. You will come off as weak and not worthy of her respect. Leave the I's out of the conversation. Share you pain with us and your C not your W. This is important.

Build your script. I'd say something like hey W I know what is going on so don't bother insulting me by trying to cover this up anymore. You have free will and I respect that however, I will not share you with another man. If you want to continue in the R with the OM thats your choice but you will do so at the expense of our M.

I don't think you need to show her proof. Any conversation about trust or privacy are just distractions at this point. Just set your boundary and be done. Next move is hers. You just have to be ready to follow through.

Good luck. Hope you get some additional insight.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/20/09 07:32 PM
She's denied it when I've brought it up before. The proof is neccessary.

What do I want to accomplish? I want to be OK.

I honestly feel calmer now that I have been.

My script? I'm going to hand her the paper, I'm going to hand her my wedding ring, and I'm going to say, it's time for you to move out.

Don't worry about losing me anymore, you already have.
Posted By: C-Bart Re: Need input - 10/20/09 07:51 PM
Playing the role of your wife:

Wow what an A-Hole. Now I see why I had to turn to OM. So glad OM does not act this way. What kind of jerk invades my privacy then throws it in my face. Sure I'll miss him but he'll calm down and I'll be right back. He's trying to control me. He's crazy, He's angry now but..., He, etc. etc. etc.


Just my perspective.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/20/09 08:03 PM
Yep. I know.

I'm tired of letting W's potential reactions control me.

I think this is what our W has been about to some degree. We're both so invested in making everything OK for each other - and I think the flip side of that is a little bit of keeping each other at arm's length. Compromising intimacy.

This move is not for DBing. This move is for me.

I think I'd rather have the M end than pretending this is nice and tidy anymore, that I'm OK just going with it. That's not respecting myself. And that she directly lies to me. That's not the woman I married.

I'm meeting with C in half an hour.
Posted By: undrdg Re: Need input - 10/20/09 08:06 PM
Good luck bill. Let us know how it goes.
Posted By: C-Bart Re: Need input - 10/20/09 08:12 PM
I get that about your W's reaction controlling your behavior. It is dishonest to say the least. I'm in the same boat and trying to work my way out of that hole.

That being said I still don't think your approach will have any effect other than to escalate hostility. I could be wrong.
Posted By: robx Re: Need input - 10/20/09 09:32 PM
This will be effective but again this is you that has to do this work, you have to be the courageous one and stand up for yourself and that's a scary thing to do when you haven't done it in a long time but it's something you need to do, I guarantee you.

Standing up for yourself for the very first time after living your life as the eternal door mat will make your stomach uncomfortable, you will be full of anxiety and nervous energy, you will be full of doubt, will this push her away forever, will I lose her forever, is this a mistake, maybe i should shut my mouth and continue to take it.

Do it.

No more excuses, just do it.

Grow a spine and start to stand up for yourself. It’s impossible to truly love yourself & draw self esteem from within if you are letting people walk all over you. Every time you let someone treat you badly your self esteem drops just a little bit.

If you don't show that you respect yourself enough to set boundaries with how people can treat you, how do you expect them to respect you. Setting boundaries doesn't push people away and alot of people believe that. Boundaries are a good thing, people know the limits of how far they can push you and on top of that, won't want to, setting boundaries will let people around you treat you properly, something you've been missing for a long time.

Love is a choice, attraction may not be and there are things to make your spouse attracted to you again and most of it doesn't have to do with physical appearance. Love is a choice and for this option to exist, respect must be there first.

Your wife doesn't love you because she can't respect you.

If you've been the wussy door mat husband, she knows she can walk all over you & treat you badly. Proof? She's cheating on you isn't she? That would be the ultimate disrespectful action she can do to you while stringing you along like a little puppy, giving you false hope every now & then and she enjoys it, when people have that kind of power, they abuse it, it's unfortunate but it's true.

So how do you turn this around.

Boxes.

Lots & lots of cardboard boxes, as many as you can find.

Start packing her things.

Not nicely, just remove them from the hangers and put them in the boxes, heck, throw the hangers in there too.

Do it when she's not at home.
Don't do all of them, just most of them.
Enough to get her out of the master bedroom if she isn't already sleeping in another room. If she is sleeping in another room, I would still put most of her stuff in boxes.

When she comes home & finds most of her stuff in boxes, she will come to you and confront you, in her mind, her little whipping boy stepped out of line and you will hear it from her. She will be angry and she expects you to crouch down into a fetal position and take her abuse but you aren't going to allow that anymore.

You will tell her.... "STOP! I'm not in love with you anymore and I don't love you anymore and I want you to leave now."

"You've been cheating on me and you've been disrespecting me for as long as I can remember and it stops NOW."

No crying, no yelling, no getting angry, you operate from a position of power now because you are making the decision, you are taking control of your life and you are choosing to let go of someone who doesn't love & respect you the way they promised the would.

You don't yell, you say it calmly, with strength and conviction, you stand up, feet square, and you look directly at her eyes and you cross your arms.

"You've wanted a divorce for so long, you can have it, I want one too"

"You've been having an affair, fine, time for me to find out what all the fuss is about and start finding some women to date and start a new relationship with - I've been dumb all this time thinking I can't live without you, I was wrong, I CAN LIVE WITHOUT YOU - I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO IT!"

The sooner you leave, the sooner I will start enjoying my life.

I need my space and I need to enjoy my single life without you here and you will move out now because you are the one that has wanted this for so long. I'm not leaving, I'm going to stay in this home, sleep in MY BED and enjoy my life that I've been pissing away waiting for you to wake up & love me and if what you have for me is "love", I think I prefer a different kind of "love" from someone else.

GOOD BYE!

Turn your back and walk away, leave the room, if she pursues you, tell her that you're done talking to her, you've wasted your life during this process and you won't do that anymore.

Give her a week or two to find another place to stay, it will invariably take longer than that.

During the time that she is still living at home, you will start going out most evenings, you will dress up, get the hair done, put on the cologne, the whole bit and you will make it look like you're going out on dates. If you can go out on real dates, great even better - you need the boost to your confidence, but if you can't, just fake it and stay out late and when you come home if she is still up, you make sure you have a big smile on your face and you go to your room and close the door behind you, lock it if you can. You start texting someone, even yourself if you have to, start spending time on your computer, emailing someone, if you have to, setup a fake gmail account, setup a fake user profile on facebook and start a few messages back & forth, when setting up the fake user profile on fb or myspace, find a pic of girl that is just as attractive as your wife, go on a dating website, you'll find plenty of pics on there, just make sure it's someone your wife doesn't know, pick someone from out of state.

Getting a life, 180's, self-respect, standing up for yourself, setting boundaries, no more wussy doormat behaviors, you will now become the walk away spouse - you are no longer the left behind spouse - the dynamic will change, watch as the days & weeks go by - you have changed the direction of this relationship and even if nothing changes with your wife, you have now taken control of your life and can move on. I suggest dating for real regardless of the opinions against it.

Crisis is what changes people, it's what forces people to act, without that impetus, people usually don't change, they have no real reason to have to change without a crisis.

Do it.

No excuses and no explanations why you can't do this or that.

Just do it.

Excuses don't explain and explanations don't excuse.

You've taken back your life, enjoy it, feels pretty good to be your own boss again without worrying about what someone else might do or how they treat you.
Posted By: Eskimo Nell Re: Need input - 10/20/09 10:34 PM
Hi Bill
Just wanted to pop in and see how you were going and, whilst I feel that you have been receiving a lot of positive feedback and good advice here, I also feel that there's some real bs to go with it!

No one here really knows what type of people you and your W are and I feel that to act aggressively and in a reactive way is not what either of you needs right now. Sure your W needs to know what you have discovered but there's ways and means of getting your message across without having to put yourself to any further emotional or physical duress. If you are not ready to ask her to leave, then don't. Whatever you do has to feel right for you ... I wasted months on trying to do what other people here were advising and, if I had just mowed my own path forward, I reckon that I would have been where I am now a long time ago. If it doesn't sit easily with you, then it's not right.

However, if W does not comply with stopping the A, then there should be consequences. That will buy you some time to think about what it is that you want to do for YOU and YOUR kids. I think that you should set yourself a time limit and be prepared to go through with any 'consequences' which you feel are warranted - don't forget, if there is progress then the time limit can be extended.

Meanwhile, get her to move in to the spare room/on the sofa.

Reactive behaviour does not work. It helps the spouse to win. I packed my H's stuff and literally threw it out the door when he moved in to his temporary rental with a work colleague. I really acted out as the bitch from hell that he wanted me to be - it gave him the excuse he needed for leaving - it made it all so much easier for him and he told me afterwards that it was my REACTIVE behaviour which empowered him and made him feel far less guilty than he did when I was sitting, crying or being totally silent. Please don't power your Ws behaviour in this way.

Go about this in a calm and thoughtful manner. You should definitely set your boundaries and respect yourself but I have learned that being quiet and acting with dignity gets you to far better places and produces far better results than acting gung-ho and losing any self-respect by your retaliatory actions.

Will check in again later Bill but I have to get off as that thing called work is just getting in the way!!
Posted By: robx Re: Need input - 10/20/09 10:54 PM
Originally Posted By: Eskimo Nell
Go about this in a calm and thoughtful manner.


I don't think this will work.

He has mentioned that she gives him false hope,
that she treats him like a doormat,
he has been too nice to her,
she has crossed over every boundary with him,
the aggressive approach is something he hasn't tried and is something she expects he will never try because she knows he doesn't have the courage to do it.

Whenever you are dealing with a cheating spouse, you can't communicate to them in a kind & thoughtful manner, you just reinforce their decision that they originally made, ie. he isn't the man for me, he is ok with me seeing this OM, he's not willing to put his foot down with me and hold me accountable for my actions, he's not strong enough to do it.

He needs to communicate that.

None of what I said has him yelling or arguing or swearing or being aggressive.

Quite the opposite, it's the quiet strength he will be displaying.

He won't be using words anymore,
he will use actions & body language to communicate with his wayward wife which is far more powerful than any words he's used thus far.

He would be doing the opposite of what he's done so far with his wife.

Just my 0.02 cents, good luck either way.

If you don't ever communicate to the WAS that you won't tolerate their actions & behavior, if you won't leave them if they are hurting you & the relationship that they have with you, how are they ever going to change what they're doing? What else would require them to change, human nature dictates that most people will only change what they're doing when they're forced to change - if you just ask them, they won't - why would they have to, what consequences are there for non-action?
Posted By: karen43 Re: Need input - 10/20/09 11:04 PM
Hey, Bill. I agree with what robx has said. But you need to say what you feel is right of course. I think you are a lot like I used to be, my regret is that I let my X walk all over me the 5 months I lived with him while he had a PA. It destroyed my PMA and self-esteem.

I think you can be loving, strong, and firm. I'm still a loving person, but I try not to let people walk over me. I agree you should be quietly assertive, not aggressive or witchy in any way.

You have my full support. Seeing the C is a good idea too.
Posted By: robx Re: Need input - 10/20/09 11:14 PM
Trusting yourself is one of the most important things a man can do. Trusting yourself to make the right decisions, even in the worst situations you're going to be ok, believe that you can count on yourself in anything.

One of the biggest things that kills attraction and relationships for men is his need for validation from the women he loves. If his wife or girlfriend does things for him, tells him she loves him, laughs at his jokes, agrees with him during discussions, etc. etc. etc. he feels great. As soon as she stops doing these things, he's broken. If she is in a bad mood, doesn't want to have sex, doesn’t agree with him, gives him the silent treatment, it triggers the needy, insecure, wussy person inside of him and that sets off a laundry list of insecure wussy behaviors which kill attraction quickly - attraction is dead, his wife/girlfriend coasts for a while seeing if he'll pick himself up and regain his original composure, the clock keeps on ticking, he doesn't because he feels he requires her validation to be able to be ok, without it, he's nothing and since he doesn't know how to be a complete man by himself, she leaves, not if, just a matter of when.

A man like that (most men unfortunately), will end up killing his relationships and he'll be scratching his head wondering how did this all happen?

The goal is to stop seeking external validation (this is applicable to both men & women). To become confident with ourselves, to be self-sufficient and happy without someone doing something for us to achieve that state.

The goal is to realize that in this life, you can truly do anything you want to do as long as you put your mind to it. You can have a great relationship, you can be a great person, you can achieve great things as long as you believe in yourself enough to trust yourself and take action in your own life.

Instead of allowing fear to control our lives, the goal is to realize that we invent alot of the beliefs that hold us back and since alot of these beliefs haven't actually happened, we're really just scared of a possibility that things might turn out poorly, we really haven't experienced the final outcome yet.

Trust yourself, make a decision to own your life, let go of the need to control others (including what your spouse does), let go of the need to require approval & validation from other people (ie. your spouses). Just trust yourself and damn the consequences - own your strength.

You can decide that you can let go of people that don't respect you or the relationship they have with you, you can decide to let go of people that won't put the effort in the relationship that you have been investing. You can decide to let these hurtful people go and view it as their loss and not as yours because you have the rest of your great life to look forward to and these people are holding you back.

Taking responsibility for your life is scary but with practice you'll get better at it.

Setting boundaries with how people can treat you will give you the results you are looking for, letting go of the people that won't respect your boundaries is a part of that. You become your own filter, you know what you're going to let in and you know what you're going to keep out.

If your spouse is cheating on you or abusing you actively with no remorse or regard for your feelings, let them go - no need to be kind or polite about it because if you have to worry about being kind or polite to the people cheating on you and/or abusing you (I would consider cheating a form of abuse), you are still worried about their feelings as being more important than your own and that really doesn't make sense now does it?
Posted By: robx Re: Need input - 10/20/09 11:19 PM
Originally Posted By: karen43
Hey, Bill. I agree with what robx has said. But you need to say what you feel is right of course. I think you are a lot like I used to be, my regret is that I let my X walk all over me the 5 months I lived with him while he had a PA. It destroyed my PMA and self-esteem.

I think you can be loving, strong, and firm. I'm still a loving person, but I try not to let people walk over me. I agree you should be quietly assertive, not aggressive or witchy in any way.

You have my full support. Seeing the C is a good idea too.


We're all preoccupied with things feeling right before doing something.

In fact we let those feelings guide our decisions when we should be leading those decisions with our minds, not our feelings.
Posted By: robx Re: Need input - 10/20/09 11:24 PM
Originally Posted By: Eskimo Nell

Reactive behaviour does not work. It helps the spouse to win. I packed my H's stuff and literally threw it out the door when he moved in to his temporary rental with a work colleague. I really acted out as the bitch from hell that he wanted me to be - it gave him the excuse he needed for leaving - it made it all so much easier for him and he told me afterwards that it was my REACTIVE behaviour which empowered him and made him feel far less guilty than he did when I was sitting, crying or being totally silent. Please don't power your Ws behaviour in this way.


That's why he needs to be pro-active,
he can't just confront her and say "hey I know you're cheating, what's up with that", he needs to follow through with that with an action that shows he's moving forward with his life without her, he becomes the WAS, the dynamic shifts, he no longer feels or exhibits feeling the fear of loss, this is shifted on to her, she is losing him now because he is making the decision to move on without her. That's the switch, he's not just being reactive, he is being proactive, he is making a decision and acting on it, he is taking control of his life and of this relationship where for so long, he hasn't had any control.

Crisis, fear of loss, moving on, this is what generates action on the part of the LBS. Since you know this, use this fact, turn things around, let go of the LBS role, become the WAS, take back the power in your relationship - you're no longer pursuing, you're leaving. You're no longer pulling them in, you're pushing them away and the opposite will happen - they will pursue, they will react, they will be thrown off balance because all along the decision making & power in this relationship was owned by the WAS not the LBS.
Posted By: karen43 Re: Need input - 10/20/09 11:55 PM
Originally Posted By: robx
[quote=karen43]Hey, Bill. I agree with what robx has said. But you need to say what you feel is right of course.
Rob, poorly stated probably, by that I meant he needs to say what he believes is right. I love what you wrote, but Bill is his own person and I'm sure can come up with the words to say.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Need input - 10/21/09 12:02 AM
Originally Posted By: robx
Trusting yourself is one of the most important things a man can do. Trusting yourself to make the right decisions, even in the worst situations you're going to be ok, believe that you can count on yourself in anything.
Robx,
I won't quote the whole thing since it's very long but that post was damn good!
Posted By: Kettricken Re: Need input - 10/21/09 12:10 AM
I just read all 27 pages of this thread, and it's heartbreaking.

First off, there is no excuse or defense for her either lying to you or bringing another man into your intimate relationship. None.

But. I could be her. A husband who was happy just being in the same room with me. A husband who (often) gave so much of his heart and mind to his work that there was literally nothing left for me at the end of the day. A man who, while open to me in many respects, had enormously thick walls up against true physical intimacy (that sounds a bit different from your sitch in some respects, but it may have felt similar to her.) A man who always felt constrained and conflicted when it came to passion. A man who seemed more interested in "taking care of me" in the pleasure department, as opposed to "taking me" for his own pleasure. (Mind you, of course that can go too much the other way too, but either extreme is distasteful to many women.)

Let me tell you, that is beyond disheartening (and defeminizing) to live with long-term, especially if your primary love language is physical touch.

Was it his "fault" or did it make him a bad or insufficient person? Of course not. He was the way he was for a lot of very logical reasons (aside: what IS IT with engineers?) He was and is a great guy and the best friend anyone could want. But I wasn't getting what *I* needed to feel loved, valued, and cherished. (I am now.)

As far as the things she has been saying about wanting to stay in bed all day cuddling/making love ... I could have said exactly that (as unreasonable as it sounds). I call it "50-lb steak syndrome" -- if you've been starved for a long time, you build up an enormous appetite, at least in theory. What you are actually satisfied with eating when the scarcity is gone may be a very different thing.

I'm not defending her actions here. Divorce is a very big stick indeed, and not an appropriate negotiating tactic. Not to mention, if she has had her head turned with fantasy and attention from an OM (although it is unclear to me how much this is still ongoing), she is NOT doing her best thinking. And I think you do have to be willing to throw down ultimatums about her contact with him; it's important for your own self-respect IMHO, and also, she'll never value you or want you or take you seriously as anything more than a "Nice Guy" if you don't show by your actions that you value *yourself* too much to be willing to share her or play second fiddle.

Be that as it may .... compassion, comprehension, and empathy is always in order.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/21/09 03:39 AM
Guys thank you for all your input. Your words and support have been really great.

Yes, I have regrets for my role in the distance in our R.
Yeah, I'm an engineer, Ket... Hm.

Well, it's done. Not a lot of drama. Short. W was cooking dinner when I got home, I asked her to speak privately. Sat down and said, this is the last moment, if there's anthing you want to say now.

She said, I don't understand.

I handed her the printout, and she read it. Didn't really react, just said "where did you get this?"

I said, "I know you've lied to me repeatedly about seeing (guy's name). And I want to give this back to you" and handed her my wedding ring.

And I said "I'd appreciate it if you moved out as soon as possible. I'm done." Then I got up and left.

She sought me out a litte later and said, "I'm sorry."

I said "That's not good enough." and she said "I know"

I said, "you lied to me. You lied to me on the phone when you were going to see him, told me that you wouldn't do anything to hurt me, that you hold me in such high regard. What is that? Are you the woman I married?"

She shook her head no.

I said, "I don't love you. I want you to get out."

She left to go to the movies with her friend, like she does on Tuesday nights.

That's it.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/21/09 03:41 AM
And I did say, "you don't have to worry about losing me anymore. It's done."
Posted By: Eskimo Nell Re: Need input - 10/21/09 10:49 AM
(((Bill))) - that took such a lot of courage. How do you feel now, need I ask??

What were her words before she left for the movies - has she gone and not to return, does she know how serious you are, is she intending to do as you have told her and go .....??

What's your next move??
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: Need input - 10/21/09 12:25 PM
Bill,

That took a lot of courage, but you did the right thing. While I doubt you feel good right now, you should be proud of yourself and realize how much strength you have. Probably strength you did not know you had.

No one knows what your W will choose to do, but, regardless, the path you have taken is the one of recovery for YOU. You can only improve from here. Either she comes along for the ride under a new set of rules or she does not, and then the problem is really with her.

Stay busy, focus on improving yourself and let whatever else may happen just happen. You KNOW where you're going. I doubt she does.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/21/09 01:03 PM
Hey guys -

I don't know, I'm just sad. But I feel like I've gotten a piece of myself back. I don't feel sick anymore.

She didn't say anything before leaving last night, just said bye to the boys as she walked out the door.

She came home, went on downstairs. Came and knocked on my door to ask what was wrong with the internet. I didn't tell her I'd turned the router off, figuing, she's not carrying on in my house anymore, but I guess that's just petty, isn't it? And going to cause more friction. I don't need to be invested in controlling her anymore.

Well, she said sorry to bother you, and went on back downstairs. That has been it.

Starting a new day. Will see how it goes.

Thanks for checking in, guys.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: Need input - 10/21/09 01:13 PM
Stay busy today. Really busy.

Treat yourself to lunch somewhere fun.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: Need input - 10/21/09 01:32 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM
I guess that's just petty, isn't it?


i wouldnt worry.

I was in the yard this past spring walking around looking my landscape. I hear this shouting across the street. didnt pay to much attention to it. then I hear a chain saw and my neighbor cuts a rectangle in the wall on the second story of his house and pushes the mattress through it. couple minutes later hes in the driveway backing his ford f350 repeatedly into his wifes bmw. pulls out of the driveway shouting you F'ing whore.

you handled yourself with alot of control.
Posted By: Esox Re: Need input - 10/21/09 01:59 PM
Bill,

I know you feel sick right now, but you are on your way to getting better. You lanced the infected wound and it hurt like hell. But it needed lancing. Now perhaps you will begin to feel better. You have taken action and are no longer her dupe. Isn't it amazing that they can straigh out lie to your face? This isn't the woman you married it is something other.

Go out tonight. Hopefully with a friend or two. And break the router if you have to . . . she doesn't have the right to conduct her affair from your marital home. Don't you dare enable her to do so. Make her run off somewhere to conduct her smutty business, not there in house where you and your kids live.

And TELL THE OTHER MAN'S WIFE. TODAY. She deserves to know what is happening in her life. This isn’t vindictive. This is the ethical thing to do. She needs to begin protecting herself against her husband’s adultery. Help her do that.
Posted By: karen43 Re: Need input - 10/21/09 02:22 PM
I'm glad you are feeling better. I wish I had been as strong as you quicker in this process like you. I just went through the sick feeling for months and months.

I don't think you are being petty about the router. If that's a boundary for you that you don't want her to contact him anymore in your house, then that isn't petty at all.

((((((((Bill)))))))))
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/21/09 02:24 PM
There is no OM's wife. I considered confronting the guy himself, but doesn't seem like much of a point.

I'm torn on the router. Maybe I will leave it off.

Thanks guys.
Posted By: CABBR Re: Need input - 10/21/09 02:29 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Originally Posted By: BillM
I guess that's just petty, isn't it?


i wouldnt worry.

I was in the yard this past spring walking around looking my landscape. I hear this shouting across the street. didnt pay to much attention to it. then I hear a chain saw and my neighbor cuts a rectangle in the wall on the second story of his house and pushes the mattress through it. couple minutes later hes in the driveway backing his ford f350 repeatedly into his wifes bmw. pulls out of the driveway shouting you F'ing whore.

you handled yourself with alot of control.


I just LOVE that. It's better than the youtube clip from Where the buffalo Roam that SP posted the other day.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/21/09 02:55 PM
Thanks guys. Sheesh, don't know how I'm going to concentrate today. Yeah, I turned the router back off.
Well, meetings start in 5 minutes. Gotta focus on this part of my life now.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/21/09 04:10 PM
Wow.

So W called and left a message about the internet, asking if I had anything to do with it. I called her back.

I said, our boys live in our house, I live in that house. I will not enable you to disrespect us by doing what you've been doing.

She said she has work to get done, contract to get out, etc. and that I'm impeding her work and that I'm putting her in a position where she'll have to take legal action.

I told her to go to an internet cafe.

...
Posted By: robx Re: Need input - 10/21/09 04:50 PM
"I pay for that internet access and that router is my equipment. Your work is your responsibility, I don't have to provide you with an internet connection to get your work done, that isn't my responsibility - you aren't my responsibility. How you get your work done is your responsibility - go to an internet cafe. go to a friends (OM) or work from a real office instead of home and as far as legal action is concerned, there is nothing you can do which forces me to provide you with internet connectivity: I can turn it on when I want to use it and turn it off when I don't or I can contact the service provider and cancel it altogether, I don't owe you anything. If you want to pursue legal action over me disconnecting the internet at our home, I invite you to do so, be my guest - either way it makes NO difference to me."
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: Need input - 10/21/09 06:40 PM
"Its comments like these that have made me realize I'm not in love with you anymore. I care about you very much. You are the mother of my children, but I'm just not attracted to you. I love you but I am not in love with you if that makes any sense. I hope it does.

I have been doing alot of thinking and I think we need to be apart. This divorce is the right thing for us. Maybe we should see of we can speed the process up. But lets talk about this later, I need to get out of here, I'm going to go see how my mom is doing."
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/21/09 07:16 PM
Well, I plan to keep my words spare.

Maybe something as simple as "I don't consider this your home anymore anyway."

To be honest, we have used it as one of her business expenses in our taxes. Be that as it may, what is she going to say? The internet stopped working and I refused to help her? All I said is that I wasn't going to enable her. But I don't want to turn this into a stupid game, or a stupid argument. I said what I had to say, and it was clear.

I considered going to the AT&T store and cancelling her cell phone - it's in my name - but that seems like it would be too much. That would be petty. And she does need to work.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: Need input - 10/21/09 07:22 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM
Maybe something as simple as "I don't consider this your home anymore anyway."


thats an argument waiting to happen. the less you argue the more it pisses them off.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/21/09 07:39 PM
Yeah, you're right.
Posted By: robx Re: Need input - 10/21/09 07:53 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM
Well, I plan to keep my words spare.

Maybe something as simple as "I don't consider this your home anymore anyway."

To be honest, we have used it as one of her business expenses in our taxes. Be that as it may, what is she going to say? The internet stopped working and I refused to help her? All I said is that I wasn't going to enable her. But I don't want to turn this into a stupid game, or a stupid argument. I said what I had to say, and it was clear.

I considered going to the AT&T store and cancelling her cell phone - it's in my name - but that seems like it would be too much. That would be petty. And she does need to work.


You are not still paying for her cell phone are you?

Say it ain't so.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/22/09 04:37 AM
She confirmed that she's slept with him.

I told her again that she needs to move out, I do not want her here with me and the boys.

Sorry to say it, but I went in the bedroom and bawled my eyes out. And she came in and saw it.

Before that conversation, I told her I have lunch plans on Saturday, which she took as a date - that seemed to shake her up a bit.

This is over. Sorry to say, but it's over.

Who knows, maybe one day she'll see it as a big mistake and want to come back. But I don't know how I would accept that.
Posted By: robx Re: Need input - 10/22/09 05:14 AM
well now you have motivation to become the WAS:

- you are leaving the marriage and it's your decision
- you are telling her to move out, it's your decision

If she talks to you again about this,
you have to be strong, no more of this crying business, you want to cry, do it somewhere she can't see or hear you while you're doing it, regardless of what most women say, when a man cries hard over a relationship they've lost with that specific woman, that woman will lose even more respect for him: it's a subconscious thing, they look at you and realize you're not strong, you're weak, ineffectual, insecure, broken and how can they be attracted to something/someone like that

"I don't love you anymore and I'm not in love with you"

"I can't believe I've wasted my life with someone like you"

"I can't look at you anymore"

"You're still here? Didn't I tell you to pack your things and leave? We'll arrange shared custody after you've left"

"Proceed with the separation/divorce, I want those things NOW but I want YOU to pay for them, I won't spend one cent on this and don't expect money from me either, in fact prepare for the opposite"

These are things you need to be ready to say,
generate fear of loss, you are now the walk away spouse.

Yes you are betrayed, you feel hurt, more hurt than ever before, something in you still wants her, you wouldn't be hurt if that was the case. Honestly, you suspected something like this already, now's it's out in the open and you have to accept that it's happened, it's the past and you're moving forward and moving on.

The date on saturday is a great idea, if she asks what's up you tell her "it's time for me to find out what this single life is all about, you've been holding me back, and it's time for me to enjoy relationships with other women"

Keep us posted Bill, it's hard but you're going to get through it and you're going to be a better man than you can possibly imagine.
Posted By: Eskimo Nell Re: Need input - 10/22/09 10:23 AM
Bill - you are showing a lot of dignity in your actions and I agree with everyone above in regard the router. As long as it doesn't stop you doing what you want to do, bin the damned thing!

Look after (((Bill))) and let your silly W come to terms with her bad judgement in her own good time. It will eat at her and she is the one that will end up feeling sick.

I wish that I had some words of wisdom for you Bill. All I have is my support and thoughts at this time. Allow yourself to be sad - it's a process and you have to start somewhere working through it. Sadness is good ... it's one step on from horror and disbelief.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: Need input - 10/22/09 11:23 AM
Originally Posted By: BillM
This is over. Sorry to say, but it's over.


important question here:

is there any desire to work through this with your wife or are you done. take a couple days or more to answer it if you have to.

in the meantime. do not dwell on this and get depressed. and do not go out and buy a new husqvarna (that guy's house looks like $hit with the plywood covering up the hole).

GO OUT AND HAVE THE TIME OF YOUR LIFE! it makes a difference.
Posted By: karen43 Re: Need input - 10/22/09 12:54 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM

Who knows, maybe one day she'll see it as a big mistake and want to come back. But I don't know how I would accept that.
I think she probably will. The OM is the kind of guy that would sleep with a married woman with kids. When their R becomes "real" if he even wants that, it's the beginning of the end. But you need to move on, you can always make those decisions later if you need or want to.

The Saturday thing sounds good. You need to do lots of GALing now. I think it's a good thing that things are out in the open. The way she was blaming you for the problems in the R, is classic with those involved in EA/PA. With time, I've realized it's just easier for the WAS to rationalize it's all the LBS fault rather than look at themselves. My X had me believing I was the most horrible person ever; I think you'll find that your self-confidence and PMA and general feeling of good health will improve a lot once she's out of the house (my daily migraines disappeared I found).

Speaking of, how is that going? It seems like this upcoming weekend would be a good time right, if not before??? If she doesn't start packing up her stuff, I agree with robx about that.
Posted By: karen43 Re: Need input - 10/22/09 12:57 PM

Quote:
important question here:

is there any desire to work through this with your wife or are you done. take a couple days or more to answer it if you have to.


Does it matter though? I think it's kind of pointless to try to figure out what you will want to do in say a month, or 3 months, or 6 months when his W decides she made a big mistake. Plus, you would still do the same whether you're done or not, have her move out while there's an OM, and GAL your butt off right?
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: Need input - 10/22/09 01:10 PM
yeah i taught it might matter. I was curious if Bill was going to be doing some divorce bustin' or booty bustin' in the near future?
Posted By: Esox Re: Need input - 10/22/09 02:38 PM
I'm sorry Bill.

Edited: you don't need to hear what I removed yet.





Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/22/09 03:08 PM
I guess it doesn't matter what I decided is "done" at this point, you guys are right about that.

I told her my sister is visiting Halloween weekend and I'd like her to be out of the house by then. Also told her I'd like to take the kids to my sister's for Thanksgiving.

Also asked her if I needed to be checked for diseases since we had sex two and a half weeks ago. She said no. So it's happened since then.

I've developed a friendship with a mutal friend - she's seperated, when I mentioned the divorce care support group she was interested. She came last night, the topic was about not developing new relationships, don't date, all that. Yeah - this is who I have lunch plans with on Saturday. Not that it's anything more than friends getting together, but that was a little... awkward...

W is taking the kids to her mother's this weekend.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: Need input - 10/22/09 03:16 PM
Quote:
Also asked her if I needed to be checked for diseases since we had sex two and a half weeks ago. She said no. So it's happened since then.


I would get checked no matter what she told you. She was not truthful about seeing OM. Why would she be truthful about this? She may not even know the answer to your question.

Again, Bill, you are doing the right thing. You and your child must be your focus right now.
Posted By: Esox Re: Need input - 10/22/09 04:54 PM
Bill,

Waywards lie. They all do. I would get checked for STDs. Who knows how many other women this dude is doing.

I think you should give her Mother a call and tell her what her daughter is up to. Do this before she gets up there and spins this as you are a bad husband and all of that. Perhaps her Mother will slap some sense into her.

Also tell your family what is happening. You need some support. You've been gaslighted for so long now. This was never about you Bill, this is all about her and her affair.

Also even if this woman is just a friend, go out and enjoy her company. It has to feel good to know that some women find you good enough to invest some time.
Posted By: LookingFrAnswers Re: Need input - 10/22/09 08:22 PM
Bill,
I don't have any advice but you've got plenty here. Just my full support & so sorry for what you're going through. My 2 cents: You handled it so well, with total class. You sound so strong. Please take care of yourself & your kids. You have my support & are in my thoughts. Try to find some ways to be good to yourself especially in the next few days & weeks.
LFA
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/22/09 10:00 PM
Really quick post -

My lawyer got a message from my W's lawyer today that he was going to take legal action unless I "fix the internet"

I don't know if that's funny or horrifying.
Posted By: undrdg Re: Need input - 10/22/09 10:08 PM
tell them you can't fix it and you don't know how and don't have money to do it.
Tell your wife to buy her own.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Need input - 10/22/09 10:29 PM
Fix whose internet, exactly?
Lawyer drivel.
What did your lawyer think of it?
Posted By: C-Bart Re: Need input - 10/22/09 11:24 PM
So now your in charge of the internet. Nice.

I think this would be a landmark case. Mental abuse caused by failure to provide broadband service. Just imagine if you made her use dialup.

One thing you can take away from this is your W's L is an a$$ hat. He should have explained to your W her legal boundaries versus taking her money for a trivial matter.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/22/09 11:25 PM
Sheesh, not worth the energy. Really not worth the energy.
I just told my L that the internet was working fine when I got home. Just made my W - AND her L - look silly.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/23/09 05:43 AM
Well.

She's refusing to move out.

She asked her lawyer to set up the court dates again.

I talked her into dropping that, but she's did call her L to set up a 4-way meeting ASAP.

And away we go.

Oh yeah, and she made me dinner, and brought me in a bowl of popcorn while I was in here talking on the phone. Crazy.
Posted By: Eskimo Nell Re: Need input - 10/23/09 10:56 AM
Originally Posted By: BillM

I don't know if that's funny or horrifying.


I would call that EXPENSIVE either way! You seem to be getting to her though Bill.

How are you feeling??
Posted By: Lost Rabbit Re: Need input - 10/23/09 12:43 PM
Bill hope you dont mind me chipping in here, just wanted to add my best wishes, your facing a tough time with a great amount of dignity in my book. Get checked out not so much from the fact your wife is lying point of view, but if any scumbag (OM) is willing to have an affair with a married woman, I would bank on him taking care of her either. Just protect yourself please.

I have to giggle at getting the L to insist the router goes on I presume all you have done is turned it off at the switch not exactly rocket science to turn it back on again, although Im sure its not funny to you. Only thing is from my POV the home is both of yours so how can the router only be yours, it does seem a bit petty to stop her from using it although I do see your point about enabling her to continue using it to promote her ongoing affair.

Definitly stand your ground, you dont deserve a W whose not there for you, you sound a good man keep reminding yourself you deserve more.
Posted By: karen43 Re: Need input - 10/23/09 04:38 PM
Originally Posted By: Lost Rabbit
Only thing is from my POV the home is both of yours so how can the router only be yours, it does seem a bit petty to stop her from using it although I do see your point about enabling her to continue using it to promote her ongoing affair.

Definitly stand your ground, you dont deserve a W whose not there for you, you sound a good man keep reminding yourself you deserve more.
I agree with what your say, but I agree with the view (Puppy's threads) that you should not pay for anything related to affair so router if she's using the internet to contact him, don't pay for the cell phone if she's used that to contact OM, don't pay for travel for her to visit OM, etc.
Posted By: Eskimo Nell Re: Need input - 10/23/09 11:20 PM
Originally Posted By: karen43
[I agree with what your say, but I agree with the view (Puppy's threads) that you should not pay for anything related to affair so router if she's using the internet to contact him, don't pay for the cell phone if she's used that to contact OM, don't pay for travel for her to visit OM, etc.



I agree but the only thing that is missing here is how are finances being currently being split anyhow? It's all well and good to say "don't pay for the router, cell phone, travel to OM" but if joint finances are still in place, the WAS still has access to the funds without having to even ask!

Another scenario is that my WAH and I have separate bank accounts plus a joint one. He's now more than halved what he pays toward the bills. This gives him more money in his own account which ergo, provides him with the where-with-all to live his separate life whilst I have to pick up the extra costs. (I hope that makes sense)!

I think that sometimes we just have to accept that whilst there are still finances that tie our Rs together, one or other partner will continue to get shafted. It's how we play that out that's important at the end of the day. Personally, I don't make a song and dance about it. I just write everything down, keep receipts and spreadsheets. If and when it comes to the end (please God that it doesn't) but I shall be ready and be able to prove what I have paid since H became a WAH. This sets me on to a more stable platform and gives me inner calm, peace and a sense of (financial) detachment, in the least. It helps me to regain some of the dignity which I feel that I lost first up and I know that I will come out better than H believes that I will. He says he wants to go 50-50 but I will contest that, if he continues on this path.... and my EVIDENCE will help me.

Protect yourself Bill ... I don't quite know how things work in America, even though here in Aus we are quite Anglo-American, but I have a sense that you would be wise to keep records too.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Free - 10/23/09 11:35 PM
Hey guys -

Thank you for all your input.

Our finances are still joint. W's assertion is that she needs internet access to run her business. She also needs her cell phone to run her business. She's been paying all the bills out of our joint account - including my credit card. And she brings in some income.

Honestly, cutting off her contact isn't going to do any good. What's done is done. My trying to control the situation will not change anything fundamental.

I have let go. And I feel a hell of a lot better. I'm thinking more clearly. I am functioning better.

I gave her my ring, I am not wearing it. I don't even know where it is or what she's done with it. I told her I am done. And that's how I feel. This isn't about her anymore. She can do what she wants. It's about me now.

Wow - isn't that a key phrase. She can do what she wants. Because, when she was committed to our M, she was doing what she wanted. Isn't that what we want? We want our spouses be with us because that's what they want to do.

She's not doing well with all this. She's really not.

But I feel liberated.

She took the kids to her parents for the weekend. I'm alone now.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Free - 10/23/09 11:42 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM
Isn't that what we want? We want our spouses be with us because that's what they want to do.
Yep. Anything else is basically meaningless.

Good for you, Bill
Posted By: karen43 Re: Free - 10/24/09 12:21 AM
Originally Posted By: BillM

Our finances are still joint. W's assertion is that she needs internet access to run her business. She also needs her cell phone to run her business. She's been paying all the bills out of our joint account - including my credit card. And she brings in some income.


Have you talked to an accountant or L about this? I had the same thing and H took the money in our savings account, and what little was in the checking account too. They do things you would never expect. I think you should separate the finances at this point, her cell & internet should be paid for by her account. B/c she's moving out next week anyway right? Easier to have separate accounts when you're living separately.

It's not a matter of control, it's a matter of boundaries which are two different things.

Btw, are you still on for the meeting with friend tomorrow? I think that's an excellent idea; please keep as busy as possible and don't even TRY to do anything stressful. Things will get better quickly. I'm actually happier now than I ever was when married; my X was more of a parental type figure, criticizing me a lot and all.

Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Free - 10/24/09 02:21 AM
Guys, I'm not going to worry about anything right now. The lawyers are going to work, we'll seperate our finances soon enough.

Karen, no, she's declining to move out. Well, whatever. But she cleared out for the weekend, took the kids to her mom's.

I'm amazed at how OK I am right now. OK alone.
And I actually enjoyed work today.

I went after work and bought some new pants. After losing 20 pounds through all this, my clothes didn't fit. And a nice sweater - and a new belt ('cause, you know, the existing clothes not fitting). Pleased with the result. Good-fitting clothes again.

Yep, meeting up with my friend tomorrow.

I am going to do some work this weekend - I've been so distracted for so long, I've got some catch-up to do. But that's OK - kind of seeing it as taking care of myself, taking care of my career. Not going to stress myself out.

Letting go. Wow.
Posted By: Lost Rabbit Re: Free - 10/24/09 09:42 AM
Letting go is somehow kinda freeing as well! Once youre finances are more sorted out things will feel better Im sure! Mine are tied in with H's like Nell's although he has been good to me so far and Im looking for a job, it was a joint decision I became a SAHW so he doesnt complain.

Hope you have a positive day and defintely buy more new clothes, Ive lost two and bit stone odd and buying new clothes has certainly bouyed me up a lot! Feeling good about yourself if always good for you!
Posted By: C-Bart Re: Free - 10/24/09 01:21 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM
Guys, I'm not going to worry about anything right now. The lawyers are going to work, we'll seperate our finances soon enough.


Just a word of caution. I never thought my W would do anything dishonest. However, that all changed when she decided she was entitled to all the money (not much) in our checking account. She also thought she was entitled to close our joint checking account without telling me. This action alone cost me several hundred $ in fines, late fees and other crap.
Posted By: karen43 Re: Free - 10/24/09 01:58 PM
I had the same thing happen. I think the WAS thinking processes are different than the LBS, some (maybe most) seem to have a sense of entitlement that can make joint finances a problem.

How do you feel about your W not moving out? I've seen divorces happen quickly, but often they can take a year or 2 also. Just getting court dates can take months sometimes. This may be a longer process than you would imagine. Mine is going to be about 18 months start to finish, if we don't have another delay (the judge asked for a continuance already). If she's still carrying on the A, I think living with her will be extremely difficult, at least that was my experience.

I'm glad you're going out today. New clothes sound good too.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Free - 10/25/09 03:31 PM
Wow. Wow. Wow.

Things happened yesterday that made me believe my W is right - we're not compatible.

I'm OK with the M being over. I'm OK with moving forward in the most productive, unhurtful way.
Posted By: robx Re: Free - 10/25/09 03:49 PM
just my 0.02 cents, in a nutshell compatibility is crap,
if personal growth is a continuous process which means people continue to evolve & change, how can compatibility be used as a measure of success with a relationship.

It's great to share a common interest(s), or hobbies, etc but it's not a requirement.

Attraction between 2 people is an automatic, unconscious process which doesn't take into account "compatibility", ie. "he loves the color red just like I do and we both play tennis, we should be together for life, we're so compatible!"

Bill, detaching is the way to go.

Let go of her.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Free - 10/25/09 03:50 PM
I have so let go.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Free - 10/25/09 04:07 PM
Bill,
Originally Posted By: BillM
I have so let go.
Good for you. I haven't posted here much but I've followed and you've impressed me and given me much food for thought. Thank you.
Best going-forward-detaching wishes.
Posted By: karen43 Re: Free - 10/25/09 06:08 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM
Wow. Wow. Wow.

Things happened yesterday that made me believe my W is right - we're not compatible.

I'm OK with the M being over. I'm OK with moving forward in the most productive, unhurtful way.

I hope you're ok. I don't know that in one day you can discover your M should be over-for compatibility or whatever reasons. It took me almost 2 years to get to that point. I know everyone has different timetables, but...
Posted By: BeTheMan Re: Free - 10/25/09 09:39 PM
Bill - I have never posted on your thread, but have read it regularly.

So what if you got there in 1 day!!! You are there. I am proud (and a little jealous) of you.

Way to take YOUR life back.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Free - 10/25/09 10:19 PM
Bill,
Originally Posted By: BillM
Wow. Wow. Wow.

Things happened yesterday that made me believe my W is right - we're not compatible.

What things, if I may ask?
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Free - 10/26/09 06:23 PM

I hesitate to post all this because it's going to sound like I've gone completely crazy.

My going out with a friend for lunch started at 11:30 and ended at 2:00 am. No, that did not include anything that "should not" have happened - we just kept doing things.

We clicked. It was clear at the end that there is a lot of potential there.

And yeah I saw her Sunday too.

W knew that I was "going out", but when she got home she said I was - her word - "giddy"

And she was devistated. Not that it was my intention.

I'm not DBing anymore guys. I'm moving on.

I told her, I'm not angry with you anymore, you're right that we need to move on with the D. I can be your friend, we can work through this together. So, just making this as productive and easy as possible.

I thought I was letting her off the hook. I really did. And now she's in more pain than she's been in through this whole process. It is difficult to see.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Free - 10/26/09 06:26 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM

I hesitate to post all this because it's going to sound like I've gone completely crazy.
Not crazy at all. Good for you.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: Free - 10/26/09 06:43 PM
Quote:
W knew that I was "going out", but when she got home she said I was - her word - "giddy"

And she was devistated.


Wait, Bill. It gets even better.

counter-intuitive
Posted By: ClingingToHope Re: Free - 10/26/09 06:53 PM
Quote:
I told her, I'm not angry with you anymore, you're right that we need to move on with the D. I can be your friend, we can work through this together. So, just making this as productive and easy as possible.

Way back at the beginning a friend told me it's easier to get over someone when you have someone.
Posted By: LookingFrAnswers Re: Free - 10/26/09 08:12 PM
Wow! Bill, you're an inspiration. You've reached it - detachment. I wanted to send my support but also let you know that your posts have really helped me too, in many ways. You're so open in your posts yet keep them brief & to the point. I feel like I've learned a lot reading them. So thank you.

You sound at peace, and you should know, you really truly deserve it.
Posted By: LookingFrAnswers Re: Need input - 10/26/09 08:19 PM
Originally Posted By: Eskimo Nell
Originally Posted By: karen43
[I agree with what your say,




I think that sometimes we just have to accept that whilst there are still finances that tie our Rs together, one or other partner will continue to get shafted. It's how we play that out that's important at the end of the day. Personally, I don't make a song and dance about it. I just write everything down, keep receipts and spreadsheets. If and when it comes to the end (please God that it doesn't) but I shall be ready and be able to prove what I have paid since H became a WAH.


Thank you Nell, for this advice. True enough for me - our credit card, checking & savings are joint & he's putting his "new" living expenses on them. I am going to record his WAS expenses - they'll be no 50/50 split on those! Sorry for the hijack Bill. :-)
Posted By: Gardener Re: Free - 10/26/09 08:28 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM
I can be your friend,
Personally, my last hurdle which I may or may not even attempt.
Friend? If any of my friends proved to me that their word, promise, commitment (let alone vow) were meaningless, worthless, I would consider that proof positive that they were no longer my friend and, subsequently, I would - and could - no longer be their friend.

Don't know if I will struggle with that or not. Right now that is my position. No malice involved, it is just how I process it.
Posted By: Kettricken Re: Need input - 10/26/09 08:34 PM
I'm sorry, but I just don't see a reason for all the attaboys, here.

Putting your foot down about your wife's infidelity and disrespect definitely warrants an "attaboy".

Spending the whole day with someone until 2 AM and the following day then talking about all this "potential" and giddiness and whatnot does not. This (I believe) is not what robx and gucci advocate. It doesn't sound like you're exploring what might be out there for a single integrated male. It sounds more like the behavior of a junkie who is desperately seeking a new source. This is not what detachment looks like. Genuine peace doesn't happen this fast. IMHO.

Sorry for the 2x4. It has nothing to do with your marriage or your wife, by the way. I just hate to see people looking like they're going to rebound at warp speed; it rarely ends well.
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Need input - 10/26/09 08:37 PM
Was kinda thinking the same thing... smirk
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/26/09 08:49 PM
I understand. Like I said, I think some people will think I'm off my rocker. You have a legitimate opinion, and I'm considering that element myself.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: Need input - 10/26/09 09:08 PM
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
Putting your foot down about your wife's infidelity and disrespect definitely warrants an "attaboy".

Spending the whole day with someone until 2 AM and the following day then talking about all this "potential" and giddiness and whatnot does not.


idk. a couple days ago she was threatening legal action over hitting the power switch on a modem. Now shes facing the consequences of her Infidelity. ATTABOY BILL.
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: Need input - 10/26/09 09:15 PM
ATTABOY Bill.....

Do what YOU want... I don't see too much success on this site from those who "wait".. Many are just as emotionally stuck as they were months if not years ago. There is nothing wrong with you now. If you aren't ready to socially interact with the opposite sex then you aren't ready to reconcile with a spouse either.

Waiting around doesn't work.... Moving on DOES...

Social interaction is fine.
Posted By: Kettricken Re: Need input - 10/26/09 09:24 PM
No, you aren't getting it, Steve.

I don't have a problem with him dating; that would be pretty ridiculous considering her choice to build an outside romantic relationship and bail on her marriage. All bets are off, there, IMHO.

No, the red flag is the vibe of readiness to dive straight into the deep end of the pool with a new person. Bill *just* came to accept that despite his desires, the divorce is probably going to happen. The last thing in the world anyone in that position needs is to emotionally latch onto a new person and treat them like a human anodyne. That giddiness is awesome, but it's just a temporary patch. It's a lameass shortcut past doing work on yourself -- even if that work is just the work of self-care and healing and learning how to live well with *yourself* for awhile -- AND it's using someone else toward that end. If his wife just DIED last week, would you advise him to start seriously or exclusively dating someone new???

And if you think it's just awesome to rub a new relationship in someone's face merely to produce pain and payback -- no matter *what* they did to you -- then all I can say is, we're operating under pretty different standards. I'm sure Bill will decide what standards he wishes to operate by.

ETA: Sigh. It's not the dating, Gucci. It's the "We spent all day together 'till 2 in the morning then again the next day, and there's all this spark and potential, wow, wow, wow....." That doesn't sound like simple casual "social interaction", to me. You don't think that's a "Danger, Will Robinson" scenario?
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 10/26/09 09:27 PM
Guys - thank you all, I appreciate the support.

This doesn't have to do with my W, and I'm not trying to manipulate a reaction from her with this.

I think what Kettricken is saying is, is this healthy for me? Is it fair to the other person? This woman does know me, and my W, and I said to her - you know where I am with this. I do not want to be selfish, I do not want to "replace" my W, and I want any next relationship I have to be based on a real foundation, not a reaction.

She has come out of a bad marriage, but is further along in the process. I think she understands all this.

I do not plan to be irresponsible or reckless, and I'm trying to be really aware. It would be EASY to blind myself to red flags.

So - thank you everyone, I value your opinions, supportive and critical.

That said, the hardest part is watching my W go through this now.

It is time for me to move out.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Free - 10/26/09 09:27 PM
Originally Posted By: ClingingToHope
Quote:
I told her, I'm not angry with you anymore, you're right that we need to move on with the D. I can be your friend, we can work through this together. So, just making this as productive and easy as possible.

Way back at the beginning a friend told me it's easier to get over someone when you have someone.


Yea but not when your still married.... And it is using someone.
BillM. As with any decision one makes. DB this new friend of yours. Detach and see if the feelings are there in a few weeks. If they are do it again for a few weeks. Take it real slow. Its very easy to get attached right now.

I always read that people really fall apart after the breakup of the relationship after the divorce.

It is an extra complication when emotions get the best of us.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Free - 10/26/09 09:43 PM
Quote:
You don't think that's a "Danger, Will Robinson" scenario?


Maybe. It's on my mind

Quote:
Take it real slow.


That is my stated intent to her.


Crap, that's not what I did though, is it?

Kettricken, how the heck did you get out of the back of my head and get access to a keyboard?

Yes, I want to be very careful. For everyone's sake.
Posted By: Kettricken Re: Free - 10/26/09 09:48 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM
Kettricken, how the heck did you get out of the back of my head and get access to a keyboard?

Yes, I want to be very careful. For everyone's sake.


grin

You're going to do just fine, I know you are.

Keep the sense of humor, I think that helps you through better than almost anything else.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: Free - 10/26/09 11:18 PM
NO Kett. I am GETTING IT.

And I see where Bill is and where his wife is with this situation. and I am glad he moved quick. many many many people on this site do not and post here depressed that their spouses are actively involved in a relationship with someone else. seemingly doing nothing else to get themselves out of their situation.

what would we be saying to him if he was walking around with this ax in his back for a year? go out start dating? well good for Bill for realizing what is good for Bill. I personally found it a hell of alot mentally healthier to be giddy and confused about my friendship then to be confused and thinking how the hell do I get out of the house so I dont have to listen to this yelling. And yes, I truely believe it had my wife reconsidering the consequences of her behavior.
Posted By: Kettricken Re: Free - 10/26/09 11:20 PM
Clearly we have differing viewpoints as to what constitutes the frying pan and what constitutes the fire. It's all cool.
Posted By: Esox Re: Free - 10/27/09 01:51 AM
Bill,

You seem such a different person now that you have found that you don't need your wife to validate your worth. And I am so happy for you. That is all I've tried to say to you, perhaps badly at times, through our interactions.

If your wife feels the sting of you moving on, well, read some of your early post and perhaps your guilt? will be a bit assuaged a bit.

Take care.

Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Free - 10/27/09 06:53 PM
Hey Esox - thanks - everything has been helpful! I've had a lot of moments of not thinking clearly.

If anyone has any doubts, moving on with your life really has the potential to turn your spouse around. Without details... my W was really trying to pull me in yesterday. And had some really - specific - ideas of how to hurt the woman I had seen.

I finally had to tell her, STOP IT. THis is the moment. Tell me to stay, right now, or else I'm moving on. It's one or the other.

And she said, I can't.

After she went to bed, I walked the dog and met up with my friend, and gave her full disclosure. This is not going to be an easy situation, and since you know my W you should be prepared that this might destroy your friendship. I told her, be careful, and everything must move very slowly. I'm not pushing you away, but you should choose what you want to do here.

Hm. Now, which was the frying pan, and which was the fire?

Seeing my C today. This is probably good timing.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Free - 10/27/09 07:04 PM
Wow Bill. Good luck. I do not have anything else to say.
Posted By: robx Re: Free - 10/27/09 07:08 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM
Hey Esox - thanks - everything has been helpful! I've had a lot of moments of not thinking clearly.

If anyone has any doubts, moving on with your life really has the potential to turn your spouse around. Without details... my W was really trying to pull me in yesterday. And had some really - specific - ideas of how to hurt the woman I had seen.

I finally had to tell her, STOP IT. THis is the moment. Tell me to stay, right now, or else I'm moving on. It's one or the other.

And she said, I can't.

After she went to bed, I walked the dog and met up with my friend, and gave her full disclosure. This is not going to be an easy situation, and since you know my W you should be prepared that this might destroy your friendship. I told her, be careful, and everything must move very slowly. I'm not pushing you away, but you should choose what you want to do here.

Hm. Now, which was the frying pan, and which was the fire?

Seeing my C today. This is probably good timing.


She did that to test you to see if she could still control you to stay and let go of the other person, don't bother to ask her anymore, continue doing what you are doing. When she really wants you back, she will tell you and you will be in the position to say yes or no at that point - don't bother asking her anymore, she's still not ready, she doesn't like what's happening because she can see that you're moving on - she had all the power when she was making the decision to have an affair and move on, she can see now that she doesn't have that power anymore. Let her sit on this now, let her see that you aren't the 2nd option anymore - now she has to deal with the thought of losing you, don't present yourself as the 2nd option anymore.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Free - 10/27/09 07:59 PM

That's not it, in my head anyway.

I will not use another person to manipulate the situation. That is wrong.

I'm imagining the situation where I cannot say yes. This isn't about being the second option - this is about not being an option at all. I had to ask her now. Cause otherwise I'm crossing the event horizon.

And I told her that too - my friend - I will not use you as a tool to manipulate this situation. If that worries you, then you should consider that.

I AM SUCH A FUN DATE!

Cutter, thank you. I can imagine what you, and others, are thinking.

I'm not such a good example of DBing at this point. Maybe I should stop posting about this situation.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: Free - 10/27/09 07:59 PM
to add a little to rob.

this is just the initial reaction TO HER REALIZING SHE IS NOW THE SECOND OPTION. read initial reaction. it takes a little longer before she starts back pedaling. just stick to the SCRIPT. those ultimatums do no good, didnt here, i think if you said something like, oh, ha, 'jolene' she's weird. she maybe an alien, it would have had more impact mentally.

dont talk about it anymore, in fact, it now needs to go underground. very secretive. enjoy those secretive affair brain chemicals. LOL. just kidding.

she will test you many many more times. and oh she will hate your friend. my wife went as far as to drag me into the backroom and jump me and get really vocal during a bbq at our house just to mark her 'territory' and come out looking like sex in front my friend. i'll tell more when i have time.

frying pan, fire. hahahahaha, you know you DB'd your friend pretty good too. she'll be chasing you now, also.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Free - 10/27/09 08:11 PM

I am uncomfortable with this.

My C appt is in 20 minutes, heading to the car.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Free - 10/27/09 08:14 PM
Don't stop posting
hold on to the feeling
streetlight people

wink
Posted By: Greek Re: Free - 10/27/09 08:46 PM
Originally Posted By: robx
Bill, detaching is the way to go.



Bill, you are NOT detaching yourself. By dating, you are DISTRACTING yourself.

You are still married. Married men should not date.
Greek
Posted By: karen43 Re: Free - 10/27/09 10:38 PM
Bill, I think I understand and agree with most of the people posting on here. I think all of us are happy you are not letting your W cake-eat and some of the other stuff, the massages!, and stuff. I think that is a huge positive step that you can envision the future without your W in it, and know that you'll be ok.

I don't think you can get over loving someone in one day. Yes, you can distract yourself, but I think it is a temporary band-aid, and eventually you have to go through the process. I do worry you are in a rebound situation, and it is prob. not healthy for your or your friend. You probably should be thinking more along just friendship with her rather than dating, otherwise I worry you and/or your friend might get hurt. I think neither of you need something like that right now.

I also agree that you shouldn't give your W the option anymore. I think she was testing you. If she is sincere, you will know it. How many times have you gone back and forth and she is probably waiting for that again.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Free - 10/28/09 07:43 PM
Guys, I hear you. And I'm not just saying that.
I am not a "throw caution to the wind" kind of guy. Hell, I'm engineer. smile

Talked to counciler - her opinion was, your W has filed, you've done everything you can, it's OK, just take it really slow and avoid sex for a good while. Which is where I was with it anyway.

C also said - "I have a hunch - you should be prepared for what you're going to do when your wife comes back and wants to reconsile."

I am very worried about her. I really think she is doing worse now, than I was when I was at my lowest. I just talked to her on the phone. She is crying, she doesn't want to leave the house, she said she's burning out her support system. She is in bad shape. And then she said - she admired me for how well I had gone through all this myself - being able to be genuinely happy at moments. I tried to get her to promise me to go for a walk, to do something for herself to feel better, get on the treadmill, whatever. Sheesh. And she said - it's not my job to take care of her anymore. She should be talking to me. And I told her, she can, if it's OK for her.

Yeah.

She says she just wanted to get through this and stop hurting, but she has not hope for the future - that everything is going to suck for awhile. She is really fighting depression.

I asked my C - how do I not feel responsible for her? And her response (it was the end of the session) was just that I'm not.

Dammit!! I do not want to see her go through this. And yeah, I feel like I need to rescue her. Cause, that's our relationship. I married someone that needed me, and only me, so much that, either I just couldn't meet those needs, or I ended up keeping her at arm's length.

This is all her choice. I don't know how to help her through this and still do what I need to do for me to move through this situation.

I guess I can't save her from it.

I moved through this stage. She will too.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: Free - 10/28/09 08:02 PM
Bill, its time for tough love. Let it run its course.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: Need input - 11/03/09 02:56 PM
Originally Posted By: robx


During the time that she is still living at home, you will start going out most evenings, you will dress up, get the hair done, put on the cologne, the whole bit and you will make it look like you're going out on dates. If you can go out on real dates, great even better - you need the boost to your confidence, but if you can't, just fake it and stay out late and when you come home if she is still up, you make sure you have a big smile on your face and you go to your room and close the door behind you, lock it if you can.


Man, Rob, you were on a roll to this point. Boxes, the words you chose, all great, I was nearly doing the wave for you! But then you lost me here:

Quote:
You start texting someone, even yourself if you have to, start spending time on your computer, emailing someone, if you have to, setup a fake gmail account, setup a fake user profile on facebook and start a few messages back & forth, when setting up the fake user profile on fb or myspace, find a pic of girl that is just as attractive as your wife, go on a dating website, you'll find plenty of pics on there, just make sure it's someone your wife doesn't know, pick someone from out of state.


Fake gmail, fake text, fake emails, fake girls on a dating web site? FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, all Fake. Bill is a good and decent man. HE doesn't need to play games to have all of these be real, real, real - but only if he is ready for those things. What's the point in being that phony if he is already showing her the door?

Is it to hurt his W? To make her freak out? To make her say to herself oh my, I really want my H after all?

Quote:
Getting a life, 180's, self-respect, standing up for yourself, setting boundaries, no more wussy doormat behaviors, you will now become the walk away spouse - you are no longer the left behind spouse - the dynamic will change, watch as the days & weeks go by - you have changed the direction of this relationship and even if nothing changes with your wife, you have now taken control of your life and can move on. I suggest dating for real regardless of the opinions against it.


Again, right on, all of this is good.

Quote:
Crisis is what changes people, it's what forces people to act, without that impetus, people usually don't change, they have no real reason to have to change without a crisis.
Big questions here - Crisis is what changes people? Is this a crisis to change his W or Bill?

Quote:
Do it.

No excuses and no explanations why you can't do this or that.

Just do it.

Excuses don't explain and explanations don't excuse.

You've taken back your life, enjoy it, feels pretty good to be your own boss again without worrying about what someone else might do or how they treat you.


Right on. You figure out what you want, you set your chin and get through the worst of it, and you go after it.

I have to read to get caught up, but I had to address the FAKE parts. Bill deserves better than just having to fake it.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: Need input - 11/03/09 03:01 PM
Originally Posted By: robx
Originally Posted By: Eskimo Nell

Reactive behaviour does not work. It helps the spouse to win. I packed my H's stuff and literally threw it out the door when he moved in to his temporary rental with a work colleague. I really acted out as the bitch from hell that he wanted me to be - it gave him the excuse he needed for leaving - it made it all so much easier for him and he told me afterwards that it was my REACTIVE behaviour which empowered him and made him feel far less guilty than he did when I was sitting, crying or being totally silent. Please don't power your Ws behaviour in this way.


That's why he needs to be pro-active,
he can't just confront her and say "hey I know you're cheating, what's up with that", he needs to follow through with that with an action that shows he's moving forward with his life without her, he becomes the WAS, the dynamic shifts, he no longer feels or exhibits feeling the fear of loss, this is shifted on to her, she is losing him now because he is making the decision to move on without her. That's the switch, he's not just being reactive, he is being proactive, he is making a decision and acting on it, he is taking control of his life and of this relationship where for so long, he hasn't had any control.

Crisis, fear of loss, moving on, this is what generates action on the part of the LBS. Since you know this, use this fact, turn things around, let go of the LBS role, become the WAS, take back the power in your relationship - you're no longer pursuing, you're leaving. You're no longer pulling them in, you're pushing them away and the opposite will happen - they will pursue, they will react, they will be thrown off balance because all along the decision making & power in this relationship was owned by the WAS not the LBS.

AHA moment, so this was it all along. If he is really done, then why throw down the crisis gauntlet in the first place?

He needed to do what you advised for HIM, not to elicit a crisis for his W. That train already left the station.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: Need input - 11/03/09 03:20 PM
Right on Kettricken!

Originally Posted By: Kettricken
No, you aren't getting it, Steve.

I don't have a problem with him dating; that would be pretty ridiculous considering her choice to build an outside romantic relationship and bail on her marriage. All bets are off, there, IMHO.

No, the red flag is the vibe of readiness to dive straight into the deep end of the pool with a new person. Bill *just* came to accept that despite his desires, the divorce is probably going to happen. The last thing in the world anyone in that position needs is to emotionally latch onto a new person and treat them like a human anodyne. That giddiness is awesome, but it's just a temporary patch. It's a lameass shortcut past doing work on yourself -- even if that work is just the work of self-care and healing and learning how to live well with *yourself* for awhile -- AND it's using someone else toward that end. If his wife just DIED last week, would you advise him to start seriously or exclusively dating someone new???

And if you think it's just awesome to rub a new relationship in someone's face merely to produce pain and payback -- no matter *what* they did to you -- then all I can say is, we're operating under pretty different standards. I'm sure Bill will decide what standards he wishes to operate by.

ETA: Sigh. It's not the dating, Gucci. It's the "We spent all day together 'till 2 in the morning then again the next day, and there's all this spark and potential, wow, wow, wow....." That doesn't sound like simple casual "social interaction", to me. You don't think that's a "Danger, Will Robinson" scenario?
Posted By: The Wifey Re: Need input - 11/03/09 03:23 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM

That said, the hardest part is watching my W go through this now.

It is time for me to move out.


Granted, I am still not completely caught up reading, but 2 cents here.

1. You can not save her from the emotions that she must face. They are called consequences for her actions and choices.

2. You should not move out - she should.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: Free - 11/03/09 03:27 PM
Originally Posted By: BillM


I finally had to tell her, STOP IT. THis is the moment. Tell me to stay, right now, or else I'm moving on. It's one or the other.

And she said, I can't.

Well, perhaps as hard as this was, it will make it a tad bit easier to "watch her go through this."
Posted By: CityGirl Re: Need input - 11/03/09 03:30 PM
I have to agree with Wifey here....

I have heard more whining and BS from my H than I thought possible from a "grown man". I listened to it for over a year and finally told him that my best suggestion was to use his support system (which no longer included me) and his how desire to work through whatever it is he needed to work through. So far he has not done one darn thing. WAS rarely think of the consequences of bomb dropping, an affair or the legal proceedings. Any feeling or emotion she has is hers to deal with on her own.

And yes, if your W wants out then she MOVES OUT. No questions asked, that is how it will be. Your goal is to have as little disruption to your life as possible during this process.

The WAS tends to think the LBS will "get on board" and do just as they want. When you are not included in the decision to end a marriage then the WAS is on their own and that includes finding new housing.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: Free - 11/03/09 03:35 PM
Bill,

Your last post again shows what a good and decent man you are. You can not be her C and you must let her fight the depression on her own.

I know you would like to see this turn around at the stroke of 12, but rescuing her is not what could make that happen. Be sure she has plenty of opportunities to look in the mirror. She chose this. She took those actions.

At some point you had to learn that self-validation was the path to strength for you. If she does not learn that, and you rescue her, then she will be looking for validation from OM or another OM down the road. You, and she, deserve better.

Oh, and of course you are uncomfortable. It means you are human! It doesn't mean you have to fix it. Just be.
Posted By: LookingFrAnswers Re: Need input - 11/03/09 05:10 PM
Originally Posted By: CityGirl
I have to agree with Wifey here....

WAS rarely think of the consequences of bomb dropping, an affair or the legal proceedings. Any feeling or emotion she has is hers to deal with on her own.

The WAS tends to think the LBS will "get on board" and do just as they want. When you are not included in the decision to end a marriage then the WAS is on their own and that includes finding new housing.


CityGirl,
I have to thank you for this insight. I feel this is so true in my sitch. My H somehow thinks I need to meet to discuss a separation agrmt. As his L is the sister of OW, (as far as I can tell) he is blissfully unaware of the work I've done interviewing L's filling out long complicated paperwork, & coming up w retainer fee. He just thinks I'll get "on board" as you say & makes things so easy for him. He thinks I'm stalling to slow down process, which I was before, but the fact is all this BS takes time, & I refuse to be rushed. Great insight, thank you. I will look up your thread, you seem to have great advice.

Bill, I hope you are doing OK. Don't mean to hijack. You haven't posted for a while, how are things going?
LFA
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 11/03/09 07:58 PM
Hey guys -

Thank you for the feedback - yes, I'm doing OK. I am happy, I am functioning better than I have for awhile - started rolling back the ADs, I think I can take it now.

I stopped posting to some degree because I'm not DBing anymore. I'm not saving my M. And I don't want to advocate this to all of you that have hope - legitimate hope. But I'll tell you what's going on with me.

Last Thursday, I came home, W had made one of my favoriate meals. I expressed surprise and gratitude - and she said...

"It's because I love you."
And she also shortly after that said that, the OM didn't hold up to me at all, there was no comparison.

So, you've probably had these - one of those coversations that happen all night in spurts, when you go off in the other room then one of you has something else to say, and finds the other one.

How did I respond to this?

How did I respond to this.

I asked her how she could be so reckless with me then come and tell me that she loves me. She doesn't get to say that to me anymore.

I told her that this guy means nothing to her, and that's what she hurt me over - nothing. And I said to her - it meant something to ME.

I told her that, when I previously told her it was the last time she was going to hear it from me, that it was true - I love her - but I'm done saying it.

I told her that she is no longer my wife.

She did apologize, say that what she did is wrong, we had all those little conversations that you guys know about but can't really record coherently. And I did end up comforting her in the end. Right or wrong, it just is. And we spent some time laying on the floor together (seperately), looking at the ceiling, just talking.

She left for the weekend because my sister came and visited. It was hard for her to not spend Halloween with the kids. So we're trying to figure out Halloween.

And even last night, we had a good time talking with each other, but she had to go be alone for awhile too. And she won't let me comfort her now, because she recongnizes that it's not healty. We're talking a lot about the healty way to move forward. And you are all right - I can't take care of her anymore. It's habit.

We're going to be friends. That's clear. It's going to take time though.

And I'm doing fantastic.

Here's something we were joking about last night. Since we're not using terms of endearment anymore, we decided we'll use "terms of familiarity." So, I'm calling her "brick" and she's calling me "glass of water."

She said she's going to miss laughing so much.

So yes, this weird friendship is developing. I'm not angry anymore, I don't feel like I need anything from her anymore, I am OK.

She asked me last night, "why are we still living in the same house?" I said, "I'm still waiting for you to move out." So we talked about that for awhile.

But you know what, at this point it's not about who did what. We need to seperate to be healthy, and I'm getting my head around getting an apartment very near the house. For all intents and purposes, I'm a WAS at this point. And I want to live my life. I want to step forward.

Well, we still have the legal stuff to get through. It's going to be hard. 4-way meeting with lawyers is being scheduled to happen soon.

And I am dating this woman now. For all the mixed opinions on this - I think this is right for me.
Posted By: ClingingToHope Re: Need input - 11/03/09 08:12 PM
Quote:
The WAS tends to think the LBS will "get on board" and do just as they want. When you are not included in the decision to end a marriage then the WAS is on their own and that includes finding new housing.

I went the opposite direction. I moved out and, in my case, I think I made the right decision. We have an old, large, hard-to-maintain house. W thought she could handle her 65-hour-a-week job, the kids, the finances and the house on her own.

I got a nice two-bedroom townhouse five minutes away by bike. I'm spending about $75 more a month than a I really want to, but it's big enough that the kids can spread out and they really like the place.

W has really struggled to keep up with the house. Two months after leaving she told me she wanted to sell. I told her I agreed. I was tired of the place as well. This surprised her. She thought I had a huge emotional attachment to it because my parents lived there for two years when I was growing up.

I told her the attachment was gone long ago as it became more and more expensive to update and maintain and even after we'd finish something it still wasn't that great.

So W gets the advantage of living in the nice big place, but she's running out of money. Basic stuff like getting the leaves raked isn't happening and all of these improvement projects she was going to magically do without me are all in the 1/4 completed stage.

Me? The property manager does a great job keeping things up. I have way more space than I need when the girls aren't here. I like it there. Sometimes I get hit with the "loss of the American Dream" blues. But I know in a couple of years, if I choose to, I'll be able to afford my own house. But if it's the choice between a house or having the money to take my girls to Florida or California, I'll rent.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 12/25/09 07:46 AM
Merry Christmas everyone!!

I haven't been on for a little bit, but wanted to drop in - hope all of you have a good holiday, whatever your situation.

- Bill
Posted By: LookingFrAnswers Re: Need input - 12/26/09 11:36 PM
Hi Bill! Merry Christmas to you too. Good to hear from you. Hoping things are going well. Peace to you in the new year.
LFA
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: Need input - 12/29/09 06:36 AM
Thanks LFA -

I'm in a 2-bedroom apartment now. Have the twins with me this week, I'm off of work. I took them sledding today in the Sierras.

Christmas was OK, we spent it as a family.

I'll be officially divorced sometime early in the next year, February or March. Lawyers are working on a settlement. I'm hoping to buy a small house, once things settle down. I hope I can.

Things are better, I guess, I haven't felt like I've had to throw once up since I moved out in early December, I'm taking that as a good sign that healing is happening. The future doesn't look like a black pit to me anymore, I don't know what it DOES look like, but it'll just be different.

Peace to you too. smile Happy New Year, and God's blessings.
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