UPSIDE DOWN and struggling badly.

Divorcebusting.com

Hi everyone
Despite being in the same DB�ing trench as many of you that I have been reading about, I fear that my situation is quite different due to being quite literally, alone in the world. All the books and self-help literature that I have been reading are full of surrounding oneself with friends and family and getting out to do stuff so that the lonely times become filled � well here�s the thing �

WAH and I emigrated to Australia four years ago this coming October after picking ourselves up and getting on with life after I was incorrectly diagnosed with a terminal illness. We wanted a fresh start and as we have always loved it being just the two of us � the emigration thing held no fear that we were going to be here alone and making a new life - just the two of us, madly in love and utterly faithful to one another, so cosseted and the envy of our friends for the past sixteen years.

I have struggled quite badly with the whole process, whilst H has taken to it like a duck to water. He can�t understand that I have been desperately homesick (despite me having lived abroad as a child) and it�s a shock to me too, as it was mostly my idea to leave the UK. I have been home to visit twice since we came out � once alone and once back in October with H.

Over the time, we have made a few friends here but none seem to work out for long � most ex-pats appear to have a hidden agenda. H says that I have stopped him from making friends as I have threatened that we will go back to the UK or move on to another country � I may have said that over time but I have also tried to give this my all and settle in to a life which I knew that H was loving.

Struggling at work, it was a joint decision that I give up my job back last February as the pressures were far to much for either of us to bear. It was starting to affect us both as I was constantly upset. Since then, the global crisis has hit hard and suitable work has been increasingly difficult for me to find within my professional capacity. The result of this is that I now have no financial independence and have become entirely reliant upon WAH for every cent.

Over the sixteen years of our marriage, WAH has actually been quite distant at times and wouldn�t �let me in�. I have tried everything to get him to open up to me � including explaining, shouting, threatening and finally telling him that I would walk if he did not come to the party and tell me what the issue was. Our s*x life suffered as a result and over the past few years, once every seven months seemed like the norm! He now tells me that our physical R was �average� but I think that is purely a message to cause as much hurt as it has. We discussed his low libido no amount of talking improved the situation. I finally decided that he was a good H, it was not worth rocking the boat and so settled back into a marriage that was filled with love and mutual respect � or so I thought. He appeared totally content in a brother/sister R and so we carried on �

However, it seems that things for WAH were much worse and he seems to have been coming to crisis point without having said a word to me. He disputes this and says that he has told me over and over that he was unhappy. He did ask me once to go for MC with him but I refused � not believing that we had problems of that magnitude and not believing that he felt as desperate as he evidently did. He now says that he actually asked me lots of times to help sort out our problems but I know that he did not. We have always talked, put a band-aid over it and moved on.

On the 17th anniversary of our first ever meeting (have been married for 16 years on 11 Sept), WAH drops ILYBINILWY bomb. Shocked beyond all recognition, I immediately did the knee jerk reaction and flew back to the security of friends and family in the UK � which turned out to be a big mistake. He told me that I should only book a one way flight, which I foolishly did, taking as much of my life with me that I could pack in to a 20kgs bag. After 2 weeks of staying with my sister and in a permanent state of numbness, I got a call from H�s friend who said �get back home � go now � you will regret it if you don�t�. I called H and told him that I was on my way back and gave him the date that I had planned to return when bombshell #2 hit me in the guts.

H had planned a weekend away � turns out that he was going to see the �work colleague� with whom he had been confiding in for the past few months. The tramp lives interstate and so the date that I had chosen for flying home was now �not convenient� for him to pick me up at the airport. I was livid � but not as much as when I got home and finally found out that plans had changed and he had brought her to our home instead. It took him about three weeks to acknowledge that it was a selfish act and that he should not have done so. He swears that nothing happened, though he admits to having slept in the same bed � fortunately not ours. I believe him on that.

Since then, things became as bad as you would imagine them to be. I hit rock bottom, called him on all of his actions and started to release the emotion that I had kept locked away, whilst staying with friends and family in the UK over the past month. Meanwhile, he was hatching his poison and sending out nasty emails to all our friends, which has in turn alienated them all from me � from us both, if what he says is true. I have little or no contact with them now and his parents have totally cut me off � though I have done nothing wrong. One night, before H became WAH, I knocked over a photo-frame, H called the police to report that he felt that his personal safety was under threat. Ten minutes after the police had left (and sided with me, I might say) he was sat on my bed, holding my hand and asking how we had come to this � where had our trust gone. Two nights later, he moved out. Is this MLC? He says no and is sick of everyone saying that it is.

As if it could, it went from bad to worse after that. He has hung up the phone on me, ignored emails and generally made me feel like the most worthless creature crawling this earth if I say one word that he doesn�t like, or he feels offends him. To add to my humiliation, he is now threatening me financially, saying that I have to find any work that I can to pay my half share of the mortgage and bills. H is evidently struggling to afford the mortgage and bills on our home, whilst he has taken himself a rented unit and the bills that also incurs. Of course, it would appear that he has, until recently, been flying interstate twice per month to visit �the colleague� but last week something changed and I now feel that the situation is over � just stuff that he said, nothing definite and I didn�t ask � but neither did he deny when I said that I hoped that it had all gone pear-shaped. He had told me earlier in the week that he was in a bad mood, which appeared to persist all of last week. He came to see me on Friday to discuss �practicalities� and he seemed quite at home and almost sad when it was time for him to leave. He was curled up on the couch the whole time that we were talking and he appeared to be more receptive to our conversation than he had previously.

However, when I tested the water (which I now know to be against DB�ing rules!) he was adamant that he will not consider MC as he never intends on coming back. In temper during one or two previous conversations, he did say that he would D me as soon as the year is out, as per the law here. Also in temper, I told him that I would go back to the UK so that I could file and, by mutual consent, this could all be over in a few short weeks, which was a bluff on my part. Nevertheless, he said NO, which excited me until I learned his reasons � he said that he would be financially disadvantaged and continues his stance on that.

In July, H ignored my birthday, which was particularly hurtful. He did send an SMS at lunch time which said �hope that your day is better than anticipated� � he has shown no remorse over that, though most birthdays with him in the past have been long weekends with champagne, roses, strawberries � the whole romantic nine yards. Knowing him as only I do, I feel that this has become a terminal situation for us but after having found DB�ing in the library last weekend, I am now so desperate to utilise the techniques and see if I can get the positive outcome that many others have achieved.

For now, it�s a tough uphill climb �almost broke off there to send him an email or SMS but I stopped myself, phew! He has left me alone in our large home and has little or no contact with me, despite him saying the contrary. I have had to work out the pool maintenance and other such domestic activities, which I have never been involved in. I�m proud that I have achieved those things so far! He is upping the pressure on the financial side all of the time but as I am not working, how can he expect me to contribute? I have tried for dozens and dozens of jobs in my professional capacity but am getting nowhere fast � he feels that it would be OK for me to get any job � whatever it is, no matter how much that may offend me professionally.

So, not working, no family, no friends, being told to cut down on the phone bill (mostly spent on calling his mobile as he doesn�t have a land-line phone) and still battling the builders who have been screwing us around with our new home for the past two years, I am DESPERATE. I am so very lonely here on my own and all I want is my best friend - my H � to come home. We are all that each other has here and I know that he is lonely too � but he will not consider anything that I have to say. He does not want to talk about where our M went wrong and says that it�s just going over the same ground that we have done over the years ... and he is tired of it. I am so frustrated. Other people�s WAS appear to give them time to talk � despite their situation. Why won�t my H do the same? Meanwhile, I sit in the house � cold now that it�s winter and afraid to put the heating on as it will just elevate the bills which we can ill afford. I can�t go far as I don�t like to take advantage of the petrol that would use and I am keeping all my �bills� to a minimum, as best I can. People say to go join groups but as this is the most isolated capital city in the world, there just don�t seem to be any � unless you are over 60 years of age! All I hear is go out with girlfriends, have a make-over, go to the movies � nice but it just can�t be so for me right now.

Initially, I accused H of feeling guilty leaving me with all of this burden and he said that yes, he did feel very guilty. Three months on and he said that he sometimes has �pangs� of guilt and misses me on occasion but overall, he�s no longer feeling such guilt and is moving on � all I can feel is the desperation each day that I wake up and realise that�s a day less that I will ever spend with him. He�s just moving so far away from me in such a short space of time �

I�m struggling to sort out my DB�ing techniques and I am on day two of my 180 in not contacting him � it�s killing me. I have been trying to do some useful stuff for myself, like going to the optometrist and getting a mammogram (!!) and have even set up some counselling for myself, starting tomorrow. H is aware of these things but purely says that it will be good for me to start looking after myself. He also said that if I could now meet someone (meaning a man), that would be great too � he states that he would be very pleased as I deserve to be loved and that none of this is my fault. I have been a good wife, according to him, so why won�t he talk and why isn�t he prepared to work on that �?

The very latest is that WAH is threatening me with putting the house on the market, which he can�t as I would have to agree. Instead, he�s threatening not to pay the mortgage in September and so the bank will end up repossessing - we both stand to lose everything that we have worked for over the past 20+ years. It�s pure blackmail.

Any pearls of wisdom at this point would be gratefully received. It�s just all eating me up and I�m so scared living in the house on my own. I can�t cry any more � I have no more tears left and yet the physical manifestation of this on-going torture has caused me to drop three dress sizes, with my eczema having returned with a vengeance. H sees all of this, when he does visit, but says that I look really well.

I�m so desperate � PLEASE HELP.

Hi Eskimo Nell

I too am new to the site, 2 weeks now I think, time seems to stand still. I have no real advice as yet, as I am still learning but you will find good advice coming soon, everyone here is full of compassion and understanding and will do there best to help you get through.

My one piece of advice is don't beg, plead or cry that is most important and critical.

Will check back again soon.

Oz

Thanks girlfromoz - it certainly does seem that people here are more full of compassion than anyone else that I have managed to talk to (back home). I get the odd email but they don't get it - they are all so shocked and confused but also see that H has hurt me too much and I should bin him off and move on quickly. They all think that I am so strong but I am really as weak and wobbly as a new kitten. Their advice is to go home - but I don't want to.

Good luck with your sitch - I see that you are still in the same house and that would appear to be a big bonus.

Later .

Won't be in the house together for much longer. Our settlement is next week and I still have not found somewhere for my D and I to live. As for my H he is going to live with a friend.

Try to keep smiling, I know it is hard though.

Oz

Oh gee. I'm so sorry. That's my worse nightmare, I have to be honest. Have you prepared yourself for the day of moving out? If not, try to get some thoughts around that now.

When H came to pick up a bed and the bar fridge to take to his new place, I got really fired up and started throwing all the bags that I had packed for him and told him to take the lot ... not come back and forth to just cut me even deeper. He said that nothing was irreversible - and that's just 3 weeks ago. Now it feels like he has been gone forever.

My anger spilled over so badly and I am ashamed of the way I behaved - would hate for you to have to feel that way.

Hi Eskimo Nell

It is so awful when the rug is pulled from under us like that. Have you read Divorce Remedy? The first step is to do that. The second step is to define what you want, in my post I am going to assume that as you are here it is to reconcile your marriage. Thirdly you are going to have to realise that your instincts will not generally serve you well at this time. I followed my instincts and the well-meaning advice of friends and family for 6 months and it drove my husband further and further away. Divorce busting is counter-intuitive but it gets results. Listen to the advice on here, the posters are very wise and you will find lots of support at this difficult time.

Now to address your post directly.

Divorce busting is about doing more of what works and stopping what doesn't. At first our instinct is to pursue and to try and talk to our spouses. It does not work and it makes them run further away from you.

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I have struggled quite badly with the whole process, whilst H has taken to it like a duck to water... H says that I have stopped him from making friends... Struggling at work, it was a joint decision that I give up my job back last February... The result of this is that I now have no financial independence and have become entirely reliant upon WAH for every cent.

It sounds like you are quite dependent on your h. Look at what would be a 180 here (a 180 is to do the opposite of what you are doing now). It will help take the pressure off your h.

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I have tried everything to get him to open up to me � including explaining, shouting, threatening and finally telling him that I would walk if he did not come to the party and tell me what the issue was.

I can tell you now that these things you have been trying to will not get him to talk to you. You cannot force someone to talk to you and the more you try the more they will clam up. This requires patience. He will talk to you when he is ready, probably when some of the anger and resentment he is showing you calms down, which it will, in time...

Quote:

However, it seems that things for WAH were much worse and he seems to have been coming to crisis point without having said a word to me.

You are not alone in this. Many of us here experienced the same. That is why it is referred to here as the 'bomb' - dropping a bombshell.

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H had planned a weekend away � turns out that he was going to see the �work colleague� with whom he had been confiding in for the past few months

Keep an eye on this relationship. It is a red flag. This does not mean obsess, you will get more advice on how to deal with this from other posters I am sure.

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instead. It took him about three weeks to acknowledge that it was a selfish act and that he should not have done so

At this time your husband will be acting in a selfish manner with little consideration to you. There is little you can do about this at the moment other than looking at boundaries of what you will and won't accept. I would say, don't pick on everything with him; let some things go but if it is a major issue set some boundaries with actions rather than words. A very wise poster said to me once 'would you rather be right, or happy?'

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that. He has hung up the phone on me, ignored emails and generally made me feel like the most worthless creature crawling this earth if I say one word that he doesn�t like, or he feels offe

So have you been calling/ texting/ emailing on a regular basis? It hasn't been working so stop.

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week. He came to see me on Friday to discuss �practicalities� and he seemed quite at home and almost sad when it was time for him to leave. He was curled up on the couch the whole time that we were talking and he appeared to be more receptive to our conversation than he had previously

Did you do anything differently here to make him feel relaxed? As he relaxed did you?
However you then followed it up with pressure. If you see responsive behaviour like this again resist the urge to have a relationship talk. It is like you are trying to coax a timid animal. If they made a step towards you, you wouldn't pounce would you? You would carry on coaxing.

Well done on taking responsibility for the house stuff! That is great

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He is upping the pressure on the financial side all of the time but as I am not working, how can he expect me to contribute? I have tried for dozens and dozens of jobs in my professional capacity but am getting nowhere fast � he feels that it would be OK for me to get any job � whatever it is, no matter how much that may offend me professionally

Without wanting to step on your toes here, it might be that you may have to. It is another thing for your h to resent you for and it will help you to meet new people in Australia and build up a social circle. I go back to the question, do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?

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. Other people�s WAS appear to give them time to talk � despite their situation. Why won�t my H do the same?

My h has had one conversation with me about why he left and that was to tell me he didn't know why. A lot of the WAS's do not talk, especially the WAH. I have learnt that it is counter-productive to make them. After a while you will not need to talk, especially when things start getting better between you. Just hold off on that talk for now.

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I�m struggling to sort out my DB�ing techniques and I am on day two of my 180 in not contacting him � it�s killing me. I have been trying to do some useful stuff for myself, like going to the optometrist and getting a mammogram (!!) and have even set up some counselling for myself, starting tomorrow

That is so great you are taking these steps. When I wasn't up for socialising I used to go to a movie on my own, it took my mind off the sitch for a few hours. I joined a choir in the evenings and slowly weaned my way back into civilisation. Sometimes, as Michele W-D says, you have to 'just do it'.

Quote:

The very latest is that WAH is threatening me with putting the house on the market, which he can�t as I would have to agree. Instead, he�s threatening not to pay the mortgage in September and so the bank will end up repossessing - we both stand to lose everything that we have worked for over the past 20+ years. It�s pure blackmail

I don't want to push it, but he may renege on this if you started bringing in an income. It may slow proceedings. What do you think?

My telephone coach told me that the first step in reconcilliation is to reduce negative feelings towards you. What can you do/ change to reduce his negative feelings?

((((Eskimo Nell))) --- this is a hug! I know it seems impossible now but you will get through this. You will find lots of support here.

Hi there, Nell....

I have been at this for a very long time and it is just within the past year that things in my sitch have started to improve.

I am no expert, with that being said, I want to point out a few things here for you:

Please do not take me the wrong way, I want to try to help you.

First, I do believe that your H is most likely in a MLC. There are signs that point to that. His age, a possible affair, sudden departure from the marriage, selfish and controlling behaviors. There is always a trigger, like the death of a close friend or family member or an accident that caused him to question his mortality for examples. Has anything happened to H in the past 18 months let's say that would create a MLC for sure?

You will have more success if you know what you are dealing with. If this is a MLC, you are in this for a long time. The only person who can help him through it is him. It takes time and patience from you and lots of it. This ride can and will be extremely difficult and painful for you. If this is a MLC, you need to get strong and start makes changes right now.

Second, when I read your very long post about your story I see a woman who is absolutely dependant on H. You appear so dependant that it is unattractive. Your H is tired of being your life line for everything.

IMO, if you are going to save your marriage you need to make some very real changes in your world. Nell, you need to stop looking at H for your happiness and entertainment and support. You have got to get out there and find a place for you. Start by getting a job, anything for now. Meet some new friends. There are lots of ways, first through a job, maybe volunteering in an elementary school or hospital, join a social club like a book club or gardening club.

Your H is looking for a break. Your H wants to make some changes in his life. H is looking for fun and enjoyment in life again. You need to create a new Nell that H enjoys. I think if you make some changes in your attitude and outlook and stop coming across as needy and clingy H will see this. Whatever you try it has to be real and genuine and it has to be permanent.

I know for a fact your H is watching you and he will notice any changes you make he will also be able to notice if they are for real or fake.

I do not believe that your marriage is over yet, however, if you don't start today and come up with a plan to change you, H will not return to what is and what has been. It will be over.

I don't say this with meanness, I say this because I have been in your shoes.

Your H wants his girlfriend back..... YOU. H wants to be with someone who he can communicate with and socialize with and have fun with. He wants a girl who is strong, independent and can think for herself. Think back to how the two of you were when the relationship was really good. Get back to that place and who you were then.

You are going to have to be the one to make all the changes for now. Once H sees they are real he will follow suit and make some positive changes on his own. He is not going to do the work. As hard as it is and sounds, if you want him back you have to take on the burden to change and the work falls on your shoulders.

If everytime he talks to you you are begging, crying, doubtful, down, demanding of him, complaining, acting out the "pity party for one", etc..... H will not come around. Why should he it only brings him down. He wants changes and he needs them. Create them, start today......

Nell, start by changing your attitude to one of independence. Do not be negative in any way shape or form around H. Practice a changed behavior until it becomes a habit and the new you.

I have to get to work, I would love to help you. I am sorry if I seem unkind. I think you have a real chance to save this, only you won't if you don't start right now by doing a 180.

Make today the day Nell changes....

I will check back later today and read your thoughts and ideas.

Take care Nell, this is the best place to be for advice.

Sanderika

I'm going to copy a post from Jen_Jam that helped me tremendously when my sitch was fresh. Read and reread it; follow her advice.

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Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 965
Loc: Surrey, UK
OK, also wanted to post what worked for me - most of it will be a rehash of DR, but I thought I'd put it here as a real world example.
JenJam's Top Ten DB Tips:

1. Don't panic. No-one ever made a great decision when in panic. You WILL panic, it's natural, but take NO ACTION when you are in that state. You have to do whatever it takes to calm down before you can tackle ANYTHING.

2. Don't depair. No-one ever got divorced in a week. Divorce, although too easy these days still take time. you DO have time to turn things about.

3. You first step is not to rebuild your R. Of course it's your ultimate aim but it's not going to happen first. Your very first step is to put the seed of doubt in WAS's mind. They have been unhappy and they consider D to be the answer. It's your job to show them that maybe there is an alternative. And I stress show. There is little you can do to talk them out of this beyond sympathising with their unhappiness and saying that IF D will make them happy then you won't stand in their way. If they are receptive to that, you could go further and say something like "we have had many good times together. Please think about this and make sure it really will make you happy. It's a lot to throw away".

4. Once you have said this back off and let them consider it. They need time. Your next step is GAL - no begging, crying or anger AT ALL. Your task is now part 2 of sowing the seeds of doubt about D - SHOWING WAS that things can be different. Now is the time to step back, put aside your ego and all thoughts of how unfair it all is (that just leads to bitterness, which is poison to a M) and REALLY look at yourself and decide if you are worthy of being WAS's spouse. I agree a M breakdown is rarely one sided but at this juncture it's more useful to look at your contribution. Look at yourself. Under a microscope. Decide if you've changed - are you happy with yourself, for you? Make changes. Now is the time for 180's. This stage also takes a long time too.

5. Time, time, time - it really IS on your side. The situation will not resolve as quickly as you hope. Don't compare your situation in terms of time with others'. It's very tempting to say "well, their situation is similar to mine and it took them 6 months so it will take me 6 months". Each situation is unique and needs its own timeframe.

6. Set your goals and decide on your first signs. This part took me a couple of months to really "get". I had to REALLY read chapter 6 of DR from "I'm discouraged" then go and review my goals before I saw any results.

7. Develop a duck's back - water slides off it. Patience + lack of panic = success.

8. Set goals for yourself as well as the R. Decide on what you want to achieve for you alone and reward your success. I know this sounds like step 4 again but it's more a case of making the changes rather than lamenting how awful you are. (I felt awful about myself for some time - bad and guilty. I did me no favours whatsoever, ended up with me feeling resentment. Much better to look forward than back - as Michelle says, look for solutions and take action)

9. Keep in mind that your actions could be frightening to WAS - you are not reacting in the way they wanted. They had this D all mapped out in their head and it's not panning out the way they thought. This has the added benefit that it leads them to think "if this isn't going the way I planned then maybe it isn't right", but it will take them a LONG TIME to come to this conclusion, to let go of their D comfort blanket. You can help them by being consistent with the positive changes. If you revert back to the you they find unacceptable then they feel perfectly justified in continuing with the D.

10. This is going to be tough on you. In the ideal world, couples in crisis would sit down together and negotiate together and accept that change was possible. In reality, you are very unlikely to resolve your problem in this way, almost certianly not in the early stages. You are not giong to have the luxury of a spouse who will listen to you and accept what you say.
You are going to be in extreme pain. You have to find something to soothe this. To have your WAS would work like a shot, but you ain't going to get this in a hurry. Do whatever it takes to comfort yourself - write a diary, see friends, go places, take the kids out if you have them, take exercise - anything. Your aim is to find something which makes you say "well, the rest of my life may be turning to sh*t but at least this part of it's OK". It acts as a time out for you and relieves the stress.

OK - as I said this is what worked for me - if you're reading this then maybe it's different for you. If you're readin this and thinknig your own sitch is impossible think of this - would you give yourself false hope right now? Chances are you wouldn't. So why give yourself false despair? There are layers in a M crisis and you don't get the benefit of seeing them all at once.
_________________________
Bomb (ILYBINILWY, don't want to be married) Sept 07 2005
Seperated Sept and Oct 2005
H moved back Nov 2005, things still bad
May 2006 - found this site
Oct 2006 - H recomitted
April 2007 - I began to feel normal again

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Thank you all - JCJ, Sanerika and SDFoundGirl ... I will reply to your great advice when I get back ... just popping out for my first counselling session and have to drive miles to get there! Really appreciate you 'being with me'.

Phew, I'm back - I've had a hectic day, starting with my counselling session this morning, which went very well. It was good that I cried one tear - that's one more than I have in ages!

Now then, down to the advice:

Everything that you are saying is correct - yes! I have read DR - in fact, there's a copy on my desk as I type this to you. I can especially identify with the characters Carol and Dean on page 181 onwards.

You are so right JCJ - the techniques are counter-intuitive but I am hanging in there and I have now made it for two days without contacting WAH - yes, I was email/text and phoning him which has not worked! Everything in me is screaming out to tell him how I have achieved a 180 today (putting salt in the pool after carrying 50kgs of it all on my own) and yet I know that he would take that so much in his stride - its what he does all the time but it's a huge achievement for me. Yes, I have been totally reliant upon him, which I now know was wrong.

I wouldn't identify with any thing that has caused his MLC in the timescale which you specify but I think that me being out of work since February, coupled with my difficulties in settling in a new country have probably not helped. The more I talked to my counsellor this morning, the more I realised that you are right and H was longing for a break from all his responsibilities. I came out feeling so elated that I had learned a few more things and yet I was sad that H won't consider joining me in counselling as I think that he would have learned about me too from what I revealed. I am positive about my work in the next few weeks with my counsellor.

I don't know if H is still having the EA because we do not talk about it. He feels too guilty and I get too angry. I told him that I thought it was all off and he didn't say yes or no but he was around last weekend and he made me believe that he was not going away this weekend either. (He is currently staying about an hours drive from our home). How do I get to know what's going on there if he won't tell me ... also, trying not to have contact with him also stops me from reading in to things and not seeing him means that I don't get to see the non-verbals! I guess that I just have to wait until he is ready to see/speak to me and then try to read him at that stage.

I hear you on the job front and I am trying! I did do some agency work for five weeks, which I kept quiet about so that I could tuck some money away for my own safety net, however someone told him and he has since demanded that I pay half for everything, even though having done so for August has now used up all of my funds. He was furious about this but I suppose that I can understand his point of view - he just won't see mine.

Thanks for the (((hug))) - it gives reassurance and comfort when there is none coming from other quarters!

Sanerika
Thanks for the vote of confidence! I especially liked that you say you are confident that H is watching me and that you feel that our M is not over! That is a positive in amongst all the negativity I am currently feeling.

H told me that he is looking for 4 things in his life: 1) To love 2) To be loved 3) To have a life and 4) To be happy in that life. He told me that he wished I was the girl who was 30 years old all over again - I told him that she was still here but he was failing to see her, there was just too much cr*p in the way and we could cut through that but we had to do it together. He keeps on saying that he can't as he just doesn't "believe it any more - our R is dead - it's about time that you heard it. I don't want what you want - my head is in a different place to yours". Hmm, too right on the last point!

I offered to meet with H last weekend for coffee - thinking that I could at least start to address some of the four things but he turned me down saying that he had a home inspection due on his rental and he had to make sure that all the domestic stuff was done! I know a brush-off when I hear one and so I have left him alone ever since - no contact at all.

You do not seem unkind at all - quite the contrary! If you were unkind, you would not have taken the trouble to write to me before you went off to work. I hope that you have had a good day :o)

Today I have started to formulate my plan - you may have seen in my other post that I went to the counsellor this morning. From there, I have pledged to work on my own issues and start to see who I am before I can give any more over to our M. If I can't get me right, how can I get us right?

Thank you for your pearls of wisdom - there are some wonderful human beings out there on this forum and none of us deserve this pain and misery, though I do believe that we will be better for the learning than will be our WAS's! (((Big Hugs)))

SDFoundGirl
Thanks for passing on the Top Ten Tips ... so much of it makes sense - it's all about sitting down and writing out goals, plans and how to achieve what allows WAH to have space ... stretch his elastic and not pull him back.

Today, my counsellor told me about a book to get hold of, so I thought that I would share it with others who may be reading this. It's called Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch - I have just booked it at our local library so can't comment yet. C tells me that its about intimacy in the marriage and may help in knowing how to talk to WAH when he is good and ready! Anything is worth a try I suppose - isn't that what we are all doing here?!

My light bulb is starting to glow!

Is this a baby step?
H has just replied to an email I sent almost three days ago. Mostly practicalities but telling me how to go about stuff that I have already done ... H was also concerned about a medical check-up that I had the day before yesterday and has asked me to let him know the outcome ...

Now, do I reply or maintain my current silence, which is of course very tempting??? If I do stay quiet, I know that he will accuse me of playing games, as he has before when I maintained silence for a few days. Maybe I should reply, thanking him for his instructions, tell him that I have already completed the domestic tasks (a good 180!) and once again another thank you for his concern re my medical condition (which is not serious, readers)! What do you think???

Hi Eskimo, as promised here I am.

You seemed to be impressed with the counselling and I am glad it went well, thank you for the phone numbers, it might be something I do in the future. I don't think I am at that point yet, but I will be doing the DBusting counselling, I have bought a phonecard, just have to make the appointment for Friday hopefully, have to wait for H to not be here.

My only advice for replying to emails from my own recent experience is to be business like, not rude or sarcastic though and not long winded. This is the advice given to me by some wonderful wise people here who have more experience than me and so far it has worked well for me.

We are only at the beginning and still learning, but we will get there, I have found coming here to be the best medicine for me, I have a laugh and feel loved at the same time.

Also I know you are trying but once you get a job it will make a huge difference to you, not just financially but emotionally as well. I work with a small but great bunch of people who know of my situation and are very supportive especially my boss.

Big hugs to you Eskimo. Try to keep smiling.

Oz

Hi Nell,

Any non-confrontational contact H makes to you is good contact and a positive at this point regardless of the context.

I am not sure if I would call it a baby step yet. H is maintaining the contact as one of the ways he is keeping track of you and watching you.

For him to still care about the household is a positive. For him to still care about your health and apparent well being is an even bigger positive.

When my H left he fled. He couldn't have given a rat's a$$ about our home, son or me. He went from being a good husband to a cold dead fish almost overnight. He even told people who inquired with him...."none of that is my problem anymore".

This is why I stress to you to do a 180 and now. Nell this is your chance to nip this in the bud. And, yes it is possible.
I firmly believe if relationship troubles are not rectified early on they become more difficult with time to reconcile. In a MLC we commonly hear they can last from anywhere up to 7 years.
In my case we are just heading into year number 5.

You need to change your ways and they must stick. In my sitch, even before I ever heard of DB, I changed immediately. Even though I worked my butt off and changed H was gun-shy. He accused me of being fake and phony from the beginning of my changes to approx. 15 months later. Of cource my H had OW and that is why he left. I learned early on that H words were really her words. I will save that for another time. That has been pure h*ll in my world.

At this point in time.....YOU REPLY.

You want him to see changes, if you maintain silence right now he won't. You don't have any children and he is over an hour away, you need to sieze opportunities for contact.

In your reply you use words that make H feel good. In your words you make sure you validate H thoughts and feelings and always say thank you. Your words must be upbeat and fun. As H reads your email you want him to be shaking his head....yes. You want him to be smiling... If something funny happened to you while you were working on things and you think he would laugh, tell him that too.

On the chores...keep it simple. If you divulge to many details you will come across as whining. Thank him for instructing and tell him his way works best because it was easy, or something like that.

On the medical...tell him exactly what he wanted to know. Give the details of the visit (as much as you would share ordinarily).
Give the details of a prescribed medical plan for the diagnosis, if it applies here. Thank him very much for asking, state that you appreciate his concern.

Keep in mind, a MLC H only does what he wants to and when. If he asked you questions on an email he wanted to ask and he wants to know.

You will work very hard before you see any glimpse of baby steps from H. Baby steps are more likely to come only after H has been reassured that things in Nell's world have changed. Baby steps are taken when a WAS actually is thinking about you and the marriage and possibly saving it. From what you are describing your H is not in that place right this minute.

Get busy girl, you need to get him thinking. You need to change his negative thinking about you and the marriage. You need to create good feeling positive thoughts of you and the marriage and the home.

Your H is not cutting off contact. Therefore you have lots of chances and choices. It's up to you how you handle each and every one.

You can turn this around and you can do it!!!! I know this because I did it!!!! My sitch was absolutely hopeless when it started. I am proof positive that friendships can be re-created and D can be held at bay. It's time and patience and DB.

(((((Nell)))))

Sanderika

Why don't you post your possible email response to H here and we can give you feedback? Keep it easy, breezy and upbeat.

BTW, in an earlier post you commented about not being able to read into your H's behaviors because he's not around. YOU SHOULD NEVER TRY TO READ INTO YOUR H'S BEHAVIORS. First, you have no idea why he's doing what he's doing. Second, that would mean you are making changes for him instead of for yourself, and the honest truth is that you will eventually become resentful if the focus is on him instead of YOU. Yes, you're hoping H notices the positive changes, but the changes have to be ones you're making for yourself to make you stronger, smarter and healthier in life.

SD

Hi my 3 trusted musketeers (girlfromoz; Sanderika and SDFoundGirl)!

Your advice is spot on .. and I am going to run with it. I must read more about the 180 and solution focussed approach today - I don't think that I have quite got a grip on what I need to be doing yet. I guess that practise will make perfect?!

Oz - I totally agree that coming here is the best medicine. For me it fills time, I learn, feel supported and genuinely feel that I am able to learn some good things to assist in saving my M. Glad that the phone numbers are on standby for you - just incase. Good luck with you telephone counselling - and getting H out of the house for long enough so that you can make the call. Let us know how it goes.

Sanderika - I hear your words - again encouraging that H is watching me. Yes, I do believe that he still cares. In a lighter moment recently, he said that he can't just stop loving me after having spent 17 years together, so I feel that is a good sign but his behaviour does not support that love. I feel so sad that your H left and didn't give a 'rats a$$' as you say. At least I have seen the pain that my WAH has experienced. I have seen the tears and the turmoil - I know that he is a good person and this decision has been the hardest that he has ever made in his life.

Last night I started doing some more thinking (the counselling evidently exacerbated my thought patterns) and I saw the problems that I have created - I have been very cold to him at times but purely in a response to his emotional shut-down. I started blaming myself, which I know that I must not do but it seemed that to tell him all that I was thinking may be the admission of fault that he could be waiting for? I wanted to write a heart-to-heart letter, as some here have done, but I don't think that he would read it ... as earlier, he feels that it's just going over old ground - even though there would be new revelations.

I'm horrified to think that this could last 7 years, due to MLC! Good on you for hanging in there for the 5 years you have spent. How did you manage to recreate a friendship with your H? My WAH wanted us to remain friends but I foolishly told him that he could not have the penny and the bun (IF he is still in EA with OW). On Friday evening when he was here, he told me that he thought it probably was not possible any more because of the way I am acting.

SDFG - I'm taking Sanderikas comment's and doing as you suggest, posting my email reponse here for your feedback. I hear that I should make the changes for myself and I am truly working on that!

(Pet Name)?
Thanks for your email about salting the pool. I appreciate that you took time to explain the way that you would do it and following your instructions, I find that the outcome was far better than the way I had planned to go about it - probably saved me one very large cold bath too! I bought some rubber gloves as I didn't fancy putting my hand in the skimmer box with all those dead bugs - you know me and creepy crawlies!! Anyhow, outcome is all well and I appreciate that you will take a look at the filter boxes when you are here next, as you have offered.

I hope that you were not unduly concerned over my [medical issue] but I don't want you to worry. The follow-up visit on Tuesday worked out just fine and the plan is for me to be reviewed again in a year's time. I am sending the results of the test home to Julian so that there is a complete record of my history in the UK as well as in Australia. Today I have to go for my medical screen (a different one) and again I shall let you know the outcome of that result when I get it. We can talk more about if you want fuller details, when you are here next, as above.

I hope that work is going OK for you and all is well.

(How do I close this email - do I put my name, pet name, hugs and kisses ... what)?!!!

Thank you for your advice and please tell me if the email is about right or absolutely way off whack ... !

I'd recommend dropping the pet names and using given names. Close it with something like..."Again, thanks for your input. I'll talk to you sometime soon. [Your name]

BTW, *no* heart to heart letters. He doesn't want to hear it, and it will push him farther away. Light, friendly, upbeat, no R talk. I went down that path, and all it did was make my H tell everyone I was a complete alien (yes, those exact words...after I got over being ticked, it made me laugh).

You know, MLC ranges in severity, and 7 years is the extreme. My H had a very mild MLC...and I think DBing plus him being a sincerely good man (and I say this even though he was writing unsent love letters to another woman at the time) plus him being an honestly reflective and soul-searching person helped keep this short.

I also found DB early in our sitch, and once I learned the techniques, I didn't waver. In my mind I'd decided I would not do ONE thing from that day on to give him ammunition/an excuse to walk away and blame me. If he was going to walk away, he was going to have to do so with the full knowledge it was about his attraction to that bimbo and not because of me...because I really listened, and I addressed (without saying anything) every single concern on his list.

In short, he'd have to be a bad guy, and H just can't see himself that way.

But treat this like a marathon, not a sprint. It's why GAL is so important. I can honestly say that the summer of the bomb was one of the most fun summers I've ever had, and also that I am grateful to my H for dropping the bomb. Our M is so much better now...we communicate our needs and tell the truth to each other always. I know, after all we've been through, that I could tell H anything and he'd support me.

Start a gratitude journal. Every day, record what you're thankful for. Put your attention on your blessings and not on the negatives. You'll be surprised how doing that each day for 5-10 minutes will feel.

SD

Eskimo Nell

Hi.

You're getting some good advice here.

Since you are now starting DB and your H seems to be in MLC the best thing I can say to you is be PATIENT. And when you are finished being patient be patient some more. Patience and self control are the keys. It can be a long ride, so make sure you have the staying power.

Thanks ladies!
OK - so I have sent the email .. just as you said, no pet names and to the point - nothing about our R and no "when will I see you/when are you coming around".

I am so trying to be patient but 3 months is a long time for me and I'm so scared that he's running in the opposite direction. I really want to believe in DB but I haven't had any results yet so patience really is a virtue right now! I guess that I am new to it yet though ... petience, patience .... patience! I have the staying power Kara - no worries there - my M vows were for LIFE and I intend to honour them!

My H doesn't think that he's having MLC at all so hopefully his will be very short lived! Trouble is, he is carbon copy of many of the stories. However, I have to say that he is, like your H, a wonderful person, full of integrity, loyalty - relective, soul-searching but very, very deep. I know that he will not have acted on thoughts alone ... he will have done so much before turning in to a WAH and it's that which frightens me. I have NEVER known him to make a decision that he has regretted - or gone back on. Scary.

Weird that you called your H's OW bimbo - it's the exact name that I have given to my WAH's EA. I do know the name but I can't even bring myself to say it. I don't know if the five meeting fling is over but I feel better thinking that it is. Up until recently, I blamed WAH for using bimbo's words instead of his own as what came from his mouth, and his actions, just didn't sound like him at any stage of our R together. I have never heard him speak so venomously and I have never known him to behave so badly toward anyone, leave alone me!

BTW - he said that he was getting the house valued this coming weekend but has not informed me of anything since so I am guessing that 1) he has no plans to meet OW and 2) he plans on being in town.

I went for my check-up this morning and I was thinking about DB'ing all the way there and back. All this heart-ache on behalf of the spouses who are left behind would all go away with three words from the WAS - "I'm coming home". Granted that there would be a lot of work to do after that but imagine how easy those three little words could be if they knew how much work we were prepared to put in - and how happy we could all be in the end. Doesn't seem quite so hard when you think of it that way but of course, this is from someone who still believes in love, romance and yes, of course, her WAH.

OK - so I have started my Grateful For diary and it starts with my number one, reading "I am grateful for the kindness of strangers" - which means, you dear people out there!!

Thanks again ... will check in later :o)

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Fantastic! Thanks June - I shall go check it out immediately.

Hi Eskimo

Thought I would drop in and say hi. The website link given by June I didn't even know existed. I had been looking for a few months now for interest groups but with no luck.

Just keep hanging in there, we are all along for the ride and here to support each other through the ups and downs.

Take care
Oz

Hey Oz - glad that you called by and found June's link ... I looked and there are a few things in Perth that interest me actually - like the book club for women. I am going to take up on that one as I have been reading heaps lately - especially a little book called DB'ing - everyone should read it, married or not!! Shame you are not in Perth or me in Melbourne - we could have met for coffee otherwise.

Have spent the afternoon doing some knitting - a cheap birthday alternative for my girlfriend back home in the UK. Kills time, saves $ and is a very personal gift when you have spent all the hours knitting a vibrant red scarf - she will love it. H will be impressed that I am not out spending money too!

Managed to recall my earlier email to H and add a few more things to it which I really am now even more content with - it totally validates him and his advice, tells him that I am working on ME for my future happiness and is totally up beat and humourous - even down to how I felt about getting a mammogram this morning, my first one ever! That should give him a chuckle this evening when he gets home from work. My (perceived) 180 today was not email him at work as I have been doing. I know that he finds it a big distraction and quite upsetting, so perhaps that's a good first move, eh? Now I'm just hanging on my incoming emails to see if he replies by the morning.

Tomorrow I plan to knock down all the outdoor spider webs that have been waiting on H to get to them. Even though it's usually dark when he gets here (about once a week, with some weeks not at all), at least I can tell him that they are done and he should be surprised by that, too. Is this the kind of stuff that I should be doing ... being self-sufficient and looking after the jobs in the home that he would normally take care of, despite his absence?

As a treat for the week that I have battled through, I am going back in to town tomorrow to pick up the pair of boots that were on sale and I kept putting back. I have decided today that I deserve a treat - I did work for 5 weeks and have done nothing with that money other than contribute it to the bills and home (as H demanded), so as well as to surprise him and pay the Electricity bill, I am getting the boots. Just hope that one doesn't backfire on me but boy will he be impressed when he sees me next ... ! I have big plans for a self 'make-over'!!

Riding fairly high this evening but I guess I will crash tomorrow - seems to be the usual pattern.

What have you been up to?? How's the DB going??

Hi Eskimo (or do you prefer Nell, let me know)

I wanted to reply to you last night but H is very curious about what I am doing on the computer these days and tries to get a look so I ended up just shutting it all down.

I had a look at the site and have found a couple of groups I might be interested in, but will wait till I have moved house and settled down a bit.

Glad you are keeping yourself busy with things, it is a good feeling when you fix up things that they usually do, kind of empowering in a way. I hope your mammogram was all okay, they are not the most pleasant things to go through.

Good for you getting the boots, we all deserve a treat now and again and there is nothing wrong in that, I myself did a bit of retail therapy last week and bought some shoes.

You are right about the pattern of good and bad days, today will be my bad day as H has gone off for the weekend to do all the moronic drunken things he feels he has to do, so I will try to keep busy, getting the car serviced today, something he always organised and did for me, now I have to do it.

For me the DBing is in its very early stages so not really seeing results yet, my 180's have been to stop initiating conversation, he has to talk first, I no longer call, text or email unless he makes first contact and I have to answer. I no longer ask him what time he will be home or who is going with wherever. I go to dinner with friends without waiting for him, if he wants to join he has to find me for a change.

Until I have a house to go to I am very unsettled and not really in a great frame of mind, once that is sorted I will be able to then really work on myself and happiness.

Will check in again a bit later and see how you are going. Should hear about the house today if I have been approved to rent it.

Have a good day Eskimo

Oz

Hi Nell,

My schedule is so very different from yours. I am sorry I didn't get to help you with the email.

It was good. I would have only mentioned to shorten it up a bit.
Otherwise you made all the right comments.

The reason I know your H is watching you is he seems very similar to my H in mood and behavior.

Several reasons are:

My H is eyeball deep in a MLC and would never admit it.

My H left over an OW. Didn't leave until he had a place to go.
It was EA at the beginning, too. Turned PA about 9-10 months into sitch.

When he decided to leave he was mean to me. Very mean sometimes.

My H is also a decision maker, he believes "right or wrong I am going to make a decision" and that is exactly what he does. Very rare to change his mind. He's stubborn.

I watched him suffer in emotion and anguish over what he had done for months. I even witnessed him crying uncontrollably he was in so much pain.

We began to re-create a friendship 4 months into the sitch.

In many of our conversations, H admitted to me he was always watching me. He watched very closely and noted all of the changes. He admitts the changes have kept the D at bay. He really likes the changes and enjoys me in many ways now.

In DB, the experts recommend you write down 3 goals, one of my 3 goals was that H would one day say again that he loves me. H has told me that he loves me and always will. In fact he has told me this more than once.

I have had a lot to read here in the past posts, I am going to jump around a bit.

YES, take care of the chores. Spider webs have to go and, if H isn't around, you do it. Since I am afraid of two things in this world....SPIDERS and ROTTEN POTATOES....I wish you luck!!!!

You will impress H that you are taking great care of the home. It will not leave him with the impression that you don't need him, so don't worry. He knows you need him. What you are trying to convey right now is that you don't need him as much as......You Want Him.

You go girl, new boots!!! EVERY TIME you see H you look like a million bucks. Even when you feel like crap, you look wonderful.

Put on a sexy outfit-head to toes, do your hair and make-up (if you wear it). Put on some perfume, his favorite scent. It will help you to carry off your PMA which is so important to show H right now. He will enjoy every minute looking at, smelling, and listening to you.

On days when I didn't expect to see H, I still didn't let my guard down on my appearance. I got the unexpected visit more times than not and girl was I glad I didn't have a backsliding day. H would always have a positive comment for me, too. I know that it payed off. I still maintain the same. You never know!!! It's maintain, maintian, maintain until it's who you are.

The "what I am grateful for" diary is a great idea. I actually have kept a diary every year since this started. I take them out all the time and I read them. I also keep them hidden. No one sees them but me, never show H. You will, I mean you will, eventually write things in there that only you should know about. I plan to burn mine if H comes home for good.

If you expect to see H, it wouldn't hurt to get some of his favorite eats and drinks in the house. I always did/do this and you guessed it....H always ransacks the fridge and cupboards. I love it. He loves it. It's home and he feels at home. It's a good thing.

Last thing tonight I want to address is your question about "How I managed to re-create a friendship with my H?" I'll touch on it now and will divulge more with time.

It was not easy. I made up my mind that H was not going to leave me. I did a 180 in 30 days. I began by the way I spoke in words and tone to H. I changed my appearance to one that was definitely more sexy and desireable. I began by catching his attention. I maintained a friendly, loving, kind, compassionate, validating, committed behavior with H. I practiced my new behavior so hard that I became someone new. I now do not know how I lived being the Sanderika of before let alone how my H or anyone else lived with her. I could actually go on and on here. My approach will come out as we converse. I have been through the worst time in my life and I do not have one regret about how I have handled the past 4 years.

I am willing to share and for me it is easier to address things as they are presented. I really want to help you and I will, in time, do just that. I also want to share with you that I never heard of DB until 6/2008. I bought the books DR and DB in 7/2008. I had already been DB in my own common sense way for almost 3 years. I was doing what the books were telling me to do.

If there is a regret, it is that my H left me. He left our home. I do believe that the techniques in DB and DR are much easier to practice and instill if the WAS has not actually moved out. Had I known of these, say the year before H left, I do not think we would have been here. I let him go, right into the arms of OW. For that I will always be sad. A part of me has changed forever because of this sitch. I am no longer naive and trusting. I have paid a price. I have learned to be very guarded of my feelings and behaviors and this will be with me the rest of my life.

Nell, I will try and get to you in the morning as well. It's very hectic here right now. My son is busy and I have two jobs to maintain, plus my house. I want to help you and will stay in touch.

(((((Nell)))))

Sanderika

Hi Oz,
No preference on name - it's only a screen name anyhow, so I certainly wouldn't get offended!

I chuckled that your H is curious about your computer activity - at least he cares enough to see what you are doing?!

Glad that you found a few interesting groups on the site - I guess that it would make sense now to see where you are going to be living and then make your plans around that. How is your packing going along? Are you travelling OK overall?

Thanks for the validation on getting the boots! I have been having second thoughts, I might say. Still, as predicted, I knew that I would come crashing down today and so am not really in the mood to go get them ... unless things change by lunch time. I was so excited checking my email this morning - I was almost sure the H would have found my message of yesterday far too humourous to ignore, but nothing from him this morning. I was devestated and now all the negative feelings have come rolling back in.

I am sure that you can identify with that, with your H having gone off for the weekend already. I know what you are saying about not being able to see results from the DB'ing at the moment. I felt that my email was the first real 180 and now that appears not to thave worked, I am so disappointed.

I am keen to do the same as you in not initiating conversation - I really wanted to speak to him last night and ask if he is coming down over the weekend but the only thing that stopped me was that he may have said that he had 'other plans' (meaning the OW is back on the scene?) and so the thought of that was what finally stopped me. I have been happier thinking that she is no longer around and so I need to cling on to that thought. May be the only thing that saves me from breaking the NC rule!

How are you fixed in terms of financially supporting yourself? Will you be able to finance your new place without support from your H - in essence, are you working? That's what troubles me is that my H will carry out his threat of withdrawing financial support whilst I am still struggling to get work. He has even said that I should consider moving interstate so that I can find work. How cruel is that? He knows that I love my home and that I am a real 'Cancer the Crab' on holding on to my domestic bliss. You can't help who you are - you can't change your make-up or the fabric of your life, just because WAS is in MLC. I know if he heard anyone else make such a comment, he would have berated them for it.

If your house move goes as well as my mammogram did, you will have nothing to fear, thank you for asking after me!! I trust that you will get the news today that you are hoping for. It will be interesting to see how your H reacts to that - does he have somewhere to go? I think that you are so brave in moving without your H - I fear that chapter the most of all. I know that my H is not here now but whilst we have the house, I still have something to be hopeful for in that he is still linked to me. Not having kids means that he has totally gone when the house does too. I am so scared that time is passing and he is getting more impatient with me to market our home.

I've just decided that I am going to go get those boots so that's an hours drive for me shortly! The alternate is sitting in the house in my pyjamas all day, as that's just how I feel. I'm not giving in to this and so will get the boots then go get some coffee and sit on the foreshore in the hope of seeing the dolphins that I spotted last Saturday!

Will check back later and see if you have had any news about the rental - good luck if it's what you REALLY want! I think that you will make such big inroads to YOU when, and if, you move and get settled.

Take care and be kind to yourself.

Thanks Sanderika ... I have read every word of your post with interest, awe and satisfaction! It does sound like our H's are similar ... I just hope that my H can do the turnaround that yours did - afterall, I know him to be a kind, loving and genuine man - it's why I am so upset at the thought of anyone else having him in their life when he is supposed to be mine for the rest of our lives. I can't bear it when I think how cold I have been in the past to him ... how could I have pushed him away as I did - how could I have made him feel so bad that he needed validation in an EA/PA??? I could beat myself for having done so but I guess that I was struggling as he kept me 'locked out'.

I look forward to hearing more of your story as time progresses. I guess that I just want/need reassurance that this will all work out OK for us too but of course, no-one can give that to me. I feel so sick today with the whole sitch. I have been a bit "too good" for "too long" and am starting to feel that I am falling down the drain. I just wish I could shed some tears as I think that it would release some of these feelings inside of me. I am like a pressure cooker, that's overdue ready to blow! Despite that I am holding myself together. I guess that I feel if I do let go, there's no-one here to piece me back together and so I have to look after myself.

You saying that your H is a decision maker and things are right or wrong put a smile on my face. I laughed at my H last week as he kept on saying to me "did you lie or did you not - it's simple, yes or no"? Of course, I had not lied but there were reasons for not having told him something directly, which I was about to explain to him. I asked him who had died and made him the barrister as he made me feel quite like I was in the dock - not that I have ever been there, save for work purposes!! Once he starts on that, he won't give up!

No worries on not getting back to me re the email. I understand that people here are on different time zones and it is difficult. I am going to go get those boots and when I come back, I shall get down those webs. I laughed that you are afraid of rotten potatoes! What a phobia ... !! Spiders I can understand. LOL.

HMy H said when he left that he wanted for us to be friends but he told me last Friday that he can see that is not going to happen now, with things getting worse. I was confused over that as, when he left that evening, he told me that we had managed a 'reasonable' evening together. I don't think that he knows what he wants, nor what he's doing half of the time but to tell him that brings some very negative comments, as you can imagine.

H did comment last time he was here that the house was really clean and smelled gorgeous, so I guess that you are right and that he does notice these things!

I think that you are so right that the DB techniques would be easier if WAH was at home. I am struggling to keep a grip on things at all as he can now go for such a long time with having NC. It's killing me.

Don't worry about getting back until you have time. I understand what a big load you have on your plate - especially keeping down two jobs.

Take care - talk soon.

Hi guys,
I'm losing it :o(

I started the day well, went out and bought those new boots I promised myself, came home and was gonna dust off the outdoor cobwebs ... felt emotionally quite reasonable, albeit that H is my every occupying thought. Got back home, made a cuppa .... and then crashed. I am now reading everything on here in a bid to keep busy and not give in to my overwhelming instinct to contact H.

It's been a week since he's been around and only two emails since - both two paragraphs of pure practicalities. I'm screaming inside to speak with him or to ask if he's coming around this weekend. I'm afraid to do so though as 1) I know that is not very positive DB'ing and 2) if I do contact him, it may remind him that he threatened to have the house valued this weekend.

I'm also still really confused about the DB'ing techniques - I know that other newbies struggle too. I just can't help but feel like I am playing in to his hands at the moment. H is no longer living with me and yet I can feel him moving further away when I have no contact with him?? I have no 'excuse' at the moment to contact him and yet I know that my silence is just what he wants ... I'm trying so hard to BELIEVE in DB but I feel like I am getting nowhere fast and H is the only one who is getting what he wants.

What shall I do ... I know that the weekend ahead will drive me insane as it has already started??

(((Nell)))

You have to learn to let go and trust the process. At times it is so counter-intuitive but it does really work.

What are your GAL (from Divorce Remedy means 'Get a life' or... keep yourself busy and occupied) plans for the weekend?

Hi Eskimo

Sorry I haven't replied earlier. Went and had my car serviced today, for the first time in my life had to book it in myself and take it there and collect it. Also fixed washing machine and cleaned dryer, all on my very own.

Have started packing, ordered a mini dumper to put stuff in that I find that I don't want or any rubbish as I go.

I am glad you got your boots but am sorry you have crashed now. You will have those days mine was on Sunday after H had been really attentive and his old self Friday night and Saturday then Sunday went cold as ice toward me.

The down times are very hard I know. I am lucky that I am going out to dinner tonight with friends, they said I had to come to dinner they wouldn't have me sitting at home on my own as D is out with her boyfriend tonight, if it wasn't for them I would be sitting on the couch eating chocolate and drinking red wine.

You asked if I was financially able to support myself, not completely, I work but H earns 3 times what I do, so he has had to apply for the townhouse with me as I wouldn't qualify on my own and he will have to pay 1/2 the rent and most of the expenses for D. He isn't going to like that but he can't expect to remove us from his life and not expect to continue with his responsibilities.

I will in the future have to find a job that pays a higher salary but for the moment I will stay where I am as I have a great boss who is really supportive and is trying to help me in any way possible, he even still pays me if I have a day off even though I don't have any sick days or annual leave owing to me. So I am grateful to him and I know that I probably wouldn't have that support elsewhere at the moment.

My H will be moving in with a friend, that will be interesting as he lives in a tiny 2 bed unit and has his two daughters stay with him each weekend.

I appear brave on the surface but inside I am dying and feel like my heart has been wrenched out.

What you must do and this is really important, fight any urge to make contact with him first, it is hard I know, but I am finally getting to that point now where I don't check my phone any more for messages or missed calls from him, I also don't feel the desire to ring or message for no reason, if I do contact him now it is for a specific reason not just because I want to.

You have to try and be strong, find that inner strength and draw on it because you have a long road ahead and you are going to need every ounce of that strength, I am rambling now I know.

With the DBing techniques, as I have been told and will tell you this is a marathon not a sprint and it is too early for you to see any outcomes, I have not seen any changes yet and don't expect to until H attempts to live his own life and I can really work on me. You have to find patience and lots of it. He has to deal with his own issues, just work on you.

Everyone here will support you in that, it is all sinking in with me now and I find I am starting to now not think of H all the time, I am starting to think of what I want to do etc. I still think of him just not every minute of the day.

Have to run now Eskimo, I will check in again later, I will be home around 11pm will check in then and see if you are still online, then we can have a chat again.

Oz

Hi JCJ
Thanks for your post. I am trying so hard to believe ... I have just been outside with my precious cats, sitting and reading chapters from DR again ... it seems so easy for the examples in the book and the outcomes are so positive. I can't help thinking that someone wrote all that stuff with rose-coloured specs on, as it just seems too easy. I also think that the positives come easier for those who's H is not a WAH, like mine is.

I have sat and mused over this all afternoon ... I finally cracked and sent a text to H asking if he would like to meet for coffee over the weekend as we have not had much contact his week. Wrong move I know and it now feels even worse as an hour and a half later, he has not responded. At one time, when we were together, his answers would be immediate. Talk about Jekyll & Hyde behaviour.

My GAL plan for the weekend probably depends largely on the weather. Even though it's winter time here in Australia, we are mostly blessed with sunshine at some time during the day and so I shall go out and do some weeding in the front garden -the most noticeable IF and when a WAH decides to drop around! I shall make that my plan for Sunday as tomorrow morning is a trip to the library with a fairly new friend - this is a big improvement in my life over the past few weeks but she has some of her own issues and therefore can not be there for me all the time, as an old girlfriend may be. Any port in a storm though and I am grateful for her, every day.

Other than that, I guess general house chores and attacking those spider webs, which I still have not tackled, despite all of my claims here to be attempting to do so. I keep threatening to get on the walking machine which is gathering dust - perhaps that should be on the agenda, too.

(((Thank you)))

Hi Oz,
Oh girl - you are so BRAVE. I read your post and was cringing inside - I don't know where you are mustering your strength from but fair play to you. Doing the 'first time' things are so difficult.

I remember catching a train when I was back in the UK in June and although I had been dropped off at the station by a friend and my BIL was picking me up at the other end, I had panic attack after panic attack during the one and a half hour journey. It's not even like I had never done that journey on my own before - and last time I had a broken arm to deal with too!

You have a whole lot of strength under you that you may not even realise for yourself. That will serve you well in the next few weeks. Did you get the rental - you didn't say but I'm guessing that you did, if you have ordered a mini-dumper and have started your sorting?

I hear you on H going cold after being 'normal' - that's where I feel that I am at now. You may have read my earlier post when I admitted to having given in and sent a text message to H? I'm angry with myself for 'undoing' a weeks work but I'm also even more angry with him for ignoring me again. I know that he will eventually respond and say that he is not ignorning me, just that he has been busy - same old, same old excuse. The temptation to just ring him is HUGE.

Yes, getting my boots was therapeutic, even though they weren't in the place that I first went to and had to drive another 20 minutes to the other branch, which is actually where I had seen them. Still, got myself some Ugg-type slippers whilst I was there too and all for a great price in the sale! Made me feel good for all of one hour.

Dinner with your friends tonight should be a good distraction. but what's wrong with eating chocolate and drinking red wine as an alternative?!!

I'm glad that you have some financial independence, though I see the predicament in regard to getting your own rental. This is what I fear that I may be facing, some time down the track. I'm not sure my H will be as accommmodating as yours is being, even though I would like to say differently. I guess that's the difference when you have kids - they feel a bit more responsibility for you as a family.

You are so lucky having a supportive boss too - and I know exactly what you mean about waiting to see how your H will manage living with someone else. If like my H who went to stay with a colleague at first, not well! My H has now taken a rental until January - a small 2 bed unit - address which remains a mystery to me as he will only tell me the suburb where he is staying.

Oh yes, I know all about being brave on the outside but feeling that your heart has been wrenched out ... I'm here sister :o(

I wish that I could get to that place where I could stop thinking about H for five minutes in the day. If I go to the bathroom I even take my mobile with me - how sad is that? I turn my computer off 'for the last time' every day but end up coming back an hour later, 'just incase' he's emailed, which of course, he rarely does. Part of me thinks that I should carry out my threat of two weeks ago, go home to the UK and file for D from there ... he has said that he would not consent as he would be disadvantaged. Still, he's happy to threaten me with D under Australian law, which absolutely disadvantages me and let's him get a 'no blame' D ... how is that fair?? I just don't want to feel this way for ever more and by doing the Cheeseless Tunnel thing, maybe I would gather a bit more control over what is going on .. even though it could end my marriage before I am (ever) going to be ready to do.

If only I could see one or two 'baby steps' working for me. I really want to believe that this can work but it all feels very fruitless as I start out on the marathon. I guess it's worse as I am finding DB'ing almost three months after H revealed his intentions.

Try to have a reasonable time with your pals tonight and have a glass or two for me ... talk later (((Oz))) Let's hang on in there together, eh?

I do know how you feel. Honestly. I used to feel the same. In fact very soon after my bomb my h said to me that 'he didn't think about me'(November 2007). Last March h and I had an honest conversation and I asked about that statement and he didn't remember saying it at all and said it utterly wasn't true and that he thought about me a lot and still does.

In the beginning response times are huge. I used to have to wait 10-14 days for a response to an email or text. Now it is instant or a couple of hours. That is because they are scared of your reactions. Your h is probably thinking that you want a relationship talk with him.

Do not do anything else now! Please leave it.

In the future if you suggest a meet up, have a valid reason for it. They are scared of being trapped.

WAS's need time and space, especially men. Distance makes the heart grow fonder. I know that is so hard for us (LBS's) to understand because we need closeness and reassurance but you are not going to get that at the moment.

Great news about the new friend! Have you thought of joining a club or starting a hobby? For me, I joined a choir. That first night of choir was the first time that I did not think about my h or the situation for 2 hours - I can't tell you the good it did me.

You can do this!

Thanks JCJ - well, I have just got a reply! Not what I was hoping for, of course. H said that he was sorry for late reply but he had been full on in work all day. He also says that he is 'unable to meet' this weekend, which I take to mean that OW is coming over to visit - this is a double whammy as I really thought that it was over.

However, he goes on to say that he will come down next week, if that's OK with me and he hopes that me and the cats are OK.

How do I respond to that - or do I ignore it????

Sorry - I didn't meant to ignore the rest of your post - yes, I guess that he is afraid that I will want to do more R talk, which at the moment I don't. How on earth did you cope with being ignored for up to two weeks?? I must go read your story - I'm sorry that I haven't up until now but I am keen to learn how you managed to turn your stich around so that you get an instant reply!

I feel so enraged right now that any R talk would be straight in to D and forgetting totally about DB'ing all together. I am so insensed at his email response this evening. Every time I start to make a positive step forward, he pulls out that rug yet again. How cruel - my heart is racing and my anxiety is making my chest pound.

I thought that by meeting out of our home environment, he may feel less trapped - we haven't done that up until now, with him always preferring to meet here - he says that he can't talk freely anywhere else as he is afraid of people hearing our conversation. I just thought that it would be some neutral territory, which would put us both in a better situation.

Yes, I have thought about joining a club/hobby. I have been doing some beading recently but my head isn't in the right place for socialising right now - I did try but I fear that people are not seeing the best of me. I am just about holding my own with the new friend, although she is so understanding and patient. It's very isolated where we live and I would have to travel about 50kms to get to anything remotely worth doing! Obviously, with finances being tight as well, I have cut myself off at having bought boots today. Perhaps when I get a job I will be able to spread my wings a little more ... thank you for being there.

EN,

Sorry you find yourself here. But, this is a great place for support and advice.

Quote:

I'm also still really confused about the DB'ing techniques - I know that other newbies struggle too. I just can't help but feel like I am playing in to his hands at the moment. H is no longer living with me and yet I can feel him moving further away when I have no contact with him?? I have no 'excuse' at the moment to contact him and yet I know that my silence is just what he wants ... I'm trying so hard to BELIEVE in DB but I feel like I am getting nowhere fast and H is the only one who is getting what he wants.

A few observations. You don't know what your H is thinking - you are trying to read his mind, which will only drive you further into an emotional mess. Stop.

Also, focus on what you can control - YOU. You have NO CONTROL over your H. If you thought you ever did, you were mistaken. So, work on YOU for YOU and not any other reason. Work on doing things for yourself, GAL'ing and building up your self confidence. But this work has to be about improving YOU, not saving your M. We are all here b/c our M's have taken a wrong turn, many did not see coming (myself included). We do not get to choose what happens with our M's. All we can do is work on improving ourselves for the better and see if our spouses wake up to the reality that we ARE the best things for them. If they don't, then it's their loss.

Sounds like right now, you should occupy yourself with stuff you want to do this weekend. Just enjoy doing things you have wanted to do but never had the chance.

As far as you struggling to believe in DB'ing, I think it is more about believing in YOU. What I have learned about DB'ing is that the end goal is not to save a M. It is to make us better, stronger people. Only when we have improved ourselves can we expect any positive change in our M.

So, the question is, do you believe in yourself? If not, why not? If not, what changes do you need to make to believe in the one person you can control - you?

I would simply reply saying 'ok, see you next week'.

There is something I learnt very early on here about assuming. You don't know that ow is coming down this weekend, she may be or she may not. However at the moment you have no power over that so there is no point wasting your energy on it. He may well be doing something entirely different.

Here is your chance to start DBing. And you need to be consistant from now on. The key I have found is to not react. Just simply don't react. Be calm.

I don't think that email was all that bad to be honest, he is still going to meet you. That was what you wanted right? Don't assume it is negative, however that doesn't mean you can't be prepared for negative things. Think about what he may say to you next week and think about your reactions - now is the time to bring in your 180 skills. This is the time for him to start to see the new Nell, the new attractive Nell. However don't expect instant reactions, just baby steps.

In my case it took time, patience, more time, more patience and most of all being consistant.

What would my 180 be here if I respond to his email - would it be to say that I am fine and was purely offering coffee with no strings ... that I don't need to see him so thanks but no thanks for his offer of calling in next week?? He only stays for a few hours and it upsets me all over again so maybe I should just go 'cold turkey' now that I have made it this far ... ???

Oops - JCJ - I obviously posted my last without checking for a response!! Just as well that I didn't send anything to H!!

OK - I shall do as you say and see what happens ... that kind of feels better. Thank you (((JCJ)))

You are right about OW - he has let me think in the past that he was going away when there was no such plan. I think that he is playing mind games ... but there again he tells me that he won't tell me things that he knows upset me.

Yes, of course I want him to come around and see me so yes, you are right ... let me be positive in thanking him and saying See you next week ... let him wonder where my negativity has gone!!

No, that is pursuing and emotional - they hate that. Keep it to a really simple answer. Let him come over next week. You can always be busy or going out or something and control the timings yourself. However post here first!

You can control you. You know he is only going to be there for a few hours. Work on accepting that and making the most of those few hours to be your super divorce buster self.

Thank you, givingitmyall.

You are right - I have so long thought for my H that I am now trying to second guess him even though he is not here. He has always said that I am too dominant but I think that he's always been too passive ... perhaps a mix of us both somewhere in the middle would have been ideal.

The advice here is brilliant .. and almost instantaneous - I'm so impressed to have found this but three months too far down the line - I could have used this all to my better advantage before H became WAH ... and I retreated back to the UK for a month, leaving him to his own devices - and our possible further downfall.

Sadly, I don't believe in myself right now, but I am getting counselling - 2nd session on Monday.

I agree that if our S does not see us as the best thing for them, then that's their loss but meanwhile, I have listened to him tell me that he is in love with OW and he feels that he can have a happy life there and it's all that occupies my mind, now that I have convinced myself that that's what his weekend to come is all about.

You are right - I can't control him or what it is that he is doing but I can get my dignity back and start to show him the woman that he fell in love with all those years back. If he doesn't see it then, I haven't really lost anything other than someone who does not - and never has - deserved me.

I have done as you suggested - text simply said exactly as you did "OK, see you next week" - nothing else and I feel good about that (((JCJ)))

H normally says that he will be around by 6pm but there's an excuse that always delays him until 7pm - he then leaves around 9.30-10.00pm but ALWAYS creates an argument before he goes. It's like he can't walk out the door on a good note ... maybe that's just him dealing with his guilt. When he did it on Friday, it was like both of us were time warped ... neither of us knew what had happened (I text him the following day to ask him and he said that he didn't know any more than I did!) and yet he was outside the door with his key in his hand telling me to shut the door - he evidently was waiting to lock it.

I didn't give him the chance to do so but shut the door and locked it immediately, shutting the lights out too so that he would have had to find his way to the car in the dark! I know that probably was a big and negative reaction but I just did what he asked!

I would really like it this week if he went back to giving me a hug before he left. How can I procure this??

Ok, excellent. A goal! I love goals!

I would say a big hug may be a little big to expect for next week but there will be baby steps working up to it.

Receiving a hug from him means what to you? A hug from him shows me that h (insert what that means to you here)

Think, are there other things that he does that also gives you the feelings that a hug evokes? He may still be doing some of them without you realising. Have you read the 5 love languages by Gary Chapman?

Then we can work on some achievable mini goals to lead up to your big hug.

The second part is - when h comes round is there usually a pattern to the interaction?

Does he really 'just start a fight' at the end? It may be his way of coping so it is easier for him to leave (never say that to him!!!). Or, do you do anything clingy that draws him to initiate those actions.

With regards to him arriving at 7 instead of 6 I found with my h it was a way of him trying to take power. I just let him have it by stepping back and making it no issue, letting it run off my back and not reacting. After a couple of interactions it was no issue.

I would say the big thing is that you react to him (by shutting down the lights and the door). I think a 180 would be to stop emotionally reacting.

You can't get that hug Nell. He has to initiate it.

Be a positive and friendly host and try to let him lead the visit. Just hang on to a few phrases ready for the departing argument. If you can keep it neutral then you'll save feeling so devastated afterwards. H and I used to always have departing arguments and I think it was because I had too many expectations and of course H was never going to be able to live up to my expectations.

Cas

Quote:

Opps, I missed your post here!

Yes, make him wonder, the more he wonders then more he'll think. Good yeah?

I agree with JCJ-my H was always late in the beginning and that was out of character for him. It was his way of controlling the shots. He's usually pretty punctual now.

Hi Eskimo

Thought I would drop in between dinner and picking up D from the movies.

You are getting good advice from everyone here, I don't have much to give but support at present as I am still learning and finding my way. But the one thing I have learn't is what the others have said is don't react and stop trying to read his mind. I have accepted this advice as absolute no. 1 rules.

You will never know what is going on his mind and only once you stop trying to read it will you find some peace. I have only just arrived at that place, not to say it has been easy and every so often I find myself wondering then I have to pull myself up.

Not sure if I have the house yet or not, the agent has approved me it is now up to the owner of the property to say if they agree or not. Either way, I still have to find somewhere to live by next Friday for D, the pets and I, the pressure is on but I will get there.

I was thinking of you when I was having dinner and everyone else here, none of my friends know about this site, it is my secret - that is another important rule, do not tell anyone about this site or the DBing, it is for you and for you alone. I was thinking though that my friends whilst trying to give advice don't really understand as they are not in this situation and don't know the feeling, it is only here that we can fully get understanding and support from like minded people.

For sure I am here with you as is everyone else on this long slow journey we are now in.

Will check in again, just going to get D now.

Oz

JCJ - a hug would mean that he still wants to be 'close' to me. He was offering hugs up until a few weeks ago but would always ask 'do you want a hug', expecting me to go to him, rather than him initiate the hug. When I got one, it felt weak and when I commented, he merely said "well, my loyalties are somewhere else now", so I stopped going to him. Since then, no hugs. If he were to come and hug me, it would be such a 'baby step' in the right direction. I just want to know that his enchantment with OW is waning ... but I know him and I know that he will do his utmost now to make that R work, in spite of me.

I can't think of anything else that he does at the moment to evoke the same feeling but I do know that he has a lot of love for me still ... it's just the ILYBNILWY scenario. He has not stopped caring, even in his nasty moments, of that I feel confident.

I have not read 5 Love Languages but will look it up at the library tomorrow. Thanks!

Will happily accept any help in preparing for next week! No usual routine to his interaction - well, maybe. He normally sorts out any practicalities, plays with the cats for a bit and then sits down to a cup of tea with me and turns up the heat for me to pay bills/mortgage/agree to marketing the house. Maybe some chat, if the mood is OK but generally it hasn't been until last Friday. He has asked if I plan to co-operate in selling the house but I felt forced to say yes, even though I absolutely will not sell yet. My fear is that he will take away his financial support and then I will be forced out. He's not stupid and knows exactly how I would react - we know each other far too well ... even to the point of being able to finish one another's sentences and buying each other the same greetings cards, when life was good!

Does he really 'just start a fight' at the end? It may be his way of coping so it is easier for him to leave (never say that to him!!!). Or, do you do anything clingy that draws him to initiate those actions. (Don't know how to do the quote thing)! Yes, he does just start a fight out of nowhere! It amazed us both last week but not in previous weeks. I have said that to him before but that was in my naiive days .. I'm starting to cotton on now, even though I'm still not very good at it. I fear that I have always been clingy but he has seen the opposite side of me too ... I just wish that I could find a consistent middle ground of ambivalence ...

I did not react last week - he was kind enough to text and let me know that he was running late and I replied, saying that was fine and thanked him for letting me know, so something had started sinking in about DB'ing! It does feel good when you get it right, perhaps that should be my yardstick to measure against. You are right though - I have to stop reacting emotionally.

Thanks again for your great advice - it's so good to know that you are not alone. I only went out to hang out some laundry and when I got back, the advice was here! How can we be alone when the service is this good??!!!

Thanks Cas05 - I think that you are right .. your advice seems to follow others and I need to stop being an emotional reactor.

Nell,

Just a couple of things before I leave for work.....

DB will work with time and patience and you must take our advice.
DB takes longer when the WAS is gone from the home.

Have NO expectations!!!

You have been forwarned that H will come by one day next week. Roll up your sleeves and get to work.....NOW!!!

Work on you, get the PMA going now. Right now if you don't have one H will see that too. He will see if it is genuine or phony.
Start now so by the visit you can behave better and maintain it.

I understand your frustration about responses. NO expectations on your part. YOU got a response!!!! YOU got a wonderful response!!! H is busy this weekend, so what!!! H inquired if you and the cats are OK.....This is a positive!!!!

I understand it might not contain all the warm and fuzzies you want, look at it like this.....it did contain a level of concern and care. YOU need to look at this different. Most MLC WAH don't look back. They only look with disgust and hate. They would much rather ream you a new butt and blame every one of their problems on you as to look at you. They don't want to look at you and they certainly won't sit and have a coffee or meal with you. YOU are not in a very bad place here. This could be a lot worse.

Nell, you need to decide what you are going to do about this....YOU have more power and control over the outcome of this and do not realize it.

WORK ON YOU
GET THOSE SPIDERS DOWN
CLEAN OUT THOSE WEEDS IN THE FRONT GARDEN
MAKE THE HOUSE LOOK AND SMELL LIKE IT DID ON THE LAST VISIT
PUT SOME OF Hs FAVs IN THE CUPBOARDS AND FRIDGE

DO NOT CONTACT H

J is right, you cannot make H want to hug you right now. What you can do is give H the impression things have changed. You can give H the thoughts and ideas that to be with you is a wonderful feeling. This doesn't happen overnight. H does not want to R talk with you at all. So don't. Eventually with enough positive reinforcement and H seeing and liking what he sees H will hug you. Time and Patience and Consistant Behavoir of Treating H Well....is what will give you results.

When it's time for a departure, you anticipate H wanting to argue, you keep it light and fun. You already have learned his behavior so you use that to your advantage. Heck bake some cookies and have a bag all prepared so when H is ready to leave say "Hey take these with you, if they stay here, I will eat them and if I eat them I will be wearing them" Just an idea here. If you send him away with a warm fuzzy, how can he start an arguement. Now if he refuses the bag of cookies for instance you simply say "OK, I really won't have much problem eating them myself" It might hurt your feelings but you won't show it.

You cannot let your guard down.

You have to look positive and upbeat and act it out all at the same time until this is who you are.

OH, one last thing, got to run....DO NOT threaten H with a leave for the UK and a D. EVER!!!!

You don't want it!!! Don't initiate it!!!

If H wants it, let him do all the work!!!

Even if they file, it doesn't mean it goes through.....look at my signature.

((((Nell))))

Make today count, get busy girlfriend....you have a lot to do...

Sanderika

Thanks Oz - I hope that dinner was not too arduous - even with the best of intent, sometimes your friends get it wrong and you end up being upset. I hope that wasn't the case this evening?

I am getting great advice ... the kindness of strangers, eh? I appreciate everything - like you, I am still learning and don't have advice to offer to anyone else but I don't think that matters. All that's good is that some likeminded people are there to listen to you pour out your heart and they are still there at the end of the day! Bless you for thinking about me during your evening (((you))).

I am so hoping that the house will be yours. I shall put out my thoughts to the Universe, she is generally kind and sees what is going on in our humble lives ... you will be alright, I feel it.

I think that you are so right about keeping this site a secret. I was chuckling to myself just now as I hung out the laundry ... wondered if H had found this site before me, registered and is answering some of my posts under a peudo-name! How freaky would that be .. ?? The stuff of Hollywood thrillers ...

Ah well, I hope that your D enjoyed the movies .. I'm going to get off and watch my UKTV Soaps - my forty minute indulgence of the night time before I get both cats up on the bed with me and we three go to sleep, dreaming that Daddy will come home soon. Well, you have to believe, don't you??!! Night night - let's hope for a better day tomorrow. Fingers crossed for good news for you.

Another thing....

Yes, H starts a fight with you because it makes it easier for him to leave. He doesn't realize this is his pattern. You do therefore you can break the pattern. Get clever.

When he leaves let him lock you in...it's his way of making you safe. If you lock him out in the dark before he can blink, think about how he felt. My guess is a bit hurt and sad. I would wait til his car was driving off before I shut the lights out and locked the door. Anything less looks uninviting. You want to portray inviting right now.

One more....

Yes, they come and go as they please...if they say a few minutes it will be an hour and a half. You get the idea. This is not really much to have concern over unless they say they will be by and blow you off completely and don't show at all. Just let it go....when he arrives at however late, let it go....this isn't a battle you will want to start. They have no concept of time right now for the most part, except for work. It's selfish, I know, it's something that changes with time. Remember the MLC is all about them.

OH, and a MLC H will say one thing right now and not remember what he said 10 minutes from now. I have experienced this and still do. Don't let it bother you and let it go....It's part of the crisis.

Learn to Live and Let Go, Nell....you will be better off in the long run, trust me. You cannot possible let everything he does/does not do get to you. Right now he doesn't know what he wants or what he is doing. All you can do is be there when he seeks you out. Stay back in the meantime, love him from afar. He knows what you want. Let him live his choices. He is the only one who can bring himself through this journey. If you are a constant and safe haven from his storm...The Lighthouse, H will see it and know it. H will take time to realize it, eventually he will though. It's up to you right now how you want to be and treat H.

GOT TO GO>>>>>>>

Sanderika

(((Sanderika))) I'm quite excited now. Far be it from me going to bed sad tonight, yet again I have been lifted by my DB'ing buddies. Thank you.

I made bread for H a few weeks ago and he told me what I should do with it! I tried again last Friday and he took it that time, so I hear your message about the cookies. I shall get to baking at the weekend ... custard slices or applie pie -that should do the trick!! I like the way to go ... and yes, I shall certainly tackle the tasks that we spoke of with more vigour now that I can see where it can lead.

One question though - it seems that as H is possibly not acting as most do in MLC, could I have really got it wrong that he is not suffering such and, if that is the case, perhaps I should believe him that he is just over our M and his feelings really are as dead as he says they are??

I feel encouraged that he promised to get the house valued this weekend and he has evidently not made any such plans. I feel encouaraged by the fact that your D has been averted, though the law in Australia is different to the rest of the world. I have only ever threatened him with me D him when I have been really angry and can't cope with this anymore - it feels that to just do it and get it over with would be far easier in the long run than all this constant torture. It would make me far sadder though - once that day comes, I know that I will have lost him forever.

OK - gotta go. I have some serious work to be getting on with!! Will check in tomorrow .. hope work goes well for you!

Oh, I like that advice ... the new me - the Lighthouse! I hear you on the door locking thing ... I must try that one in the week. Thanks a million ... so good to have you all out there ... keep checking in ... I am the lighthouse and I WILL bring my man back to a safe haven - even though he is a long ways out at sea right now!!

(((hugs)))

Nell, I am away for the weekend in Bournemouth at a friends - should be good! I will write again on Monday and respond. You are on the right tracks.

Hope the cleaning goes ok! Having the house nice always makes me feel better. Cook with no expectations

Start making weekend plans. Make a list of everything you're going to do. Chores, books to read, errands, etc. You must keep busy.

I know DB feels strange, but it's the best thing. The WAS doesn't want to be pursued, they want space. They EXPECT you to pursue and confirm all the reasons why they left in the first place. So, when we act differently from what they expect, it makes them think. They make contact, and they are floored that we're okay...taking care of the home and our lives, going out and doing things...it's not what they expected, and it makes them curious.

Beyond that, though, is YOU. The way you're living isn't healthy for you, and from what you've posted on here I hear an H who wants a strong, independent, happy wife. You've depended on him for everything because of your fears and your situtation, and that's a giant burden.

I know...I was that person to my H.

Are you ready to do some hard work that will leave you better off NO MATTER what happens with your H? As a result of the bomb, I went from having severe social anxiety, daily anxiety and weekly panic attacks, being heavily medicated for the disorder, fearing EVERYTHING, and believing I had to value TO someone who enjoys meeting people, no longer has panic attacks, is completely unmedicated, and knows her value. I love my H, but I also know I'll be fine if he ever leaves.

Set a timer if you need to cry...no more than 10-minutes. Make your list, and start working through it. What's something new you always wanted to try but didn't? Meetup groups are AWESOME. Yes, it scared the snot out of me, but I went and just Acted As If.

So...post your list here. What are you planning for your weekend?

SD

Bournemouth - fab ... get some sea breeze! Have fun with your friends and enjoy :o)

The house has been pretty much spotless since H left .. lots of time to clean and get out the frustrations! It's the outside of the home that needs attention ... all the jobs that he used to do have been kind of neglected. That's where my focus will be for the coming few days.

Talk to you on Monday!

Hi SDFG
Yeah .. I'm on it. Library this morning and then weeding; spider-web knocking party for one; window cleaning and then some baking ... of course, followed up by reading DB (if the library has it) a few more chapters to re-read of DR and finally the new one today Men are from Mars etc. Oh, I have to do some more knitting too!

I agree that DB'ing feels strange. I understand and then don't. I do get that WAH does not want to be pursued but then he acts like I have ignored him when I don't contact him. It makes me feel like I am losing control when I don't have that contact. I also feel that it is giving him time to concentrate on OW - thoughts when she is not around and then actions when she is. It makes me feel sick with rage and envy. He's not supposed to be with that tramp - he's supposed to be here with me in OUR home.

This is the bit that I don't get: I am a strong and independent woman ... it's just now that he's left I have gone to pieces. I have always 'worn the trousers' in our M and he's been the one standing behind me a lot of the time. If there have been battles to fight, I have fought them; if there is action to take, I have mostly initiated it; when trouble is afoot, I have been the first one to fight the fire. He's quite passive in many ways (he says that he has now changed and I see that he has), whilst he has always accused me of being domineering and too forthright. I have come from a bad upbringing and I had to stand on my own two feet so I know in my heart that I can do it. It's just that after all these years with H, I don't want to. We have had such a wonderful M and he has looked after me and made me feel safe ... a lot of the anger I had disappeared with him and was replaced by the safety net which I so badly needed - now he has pulled that away and I am alone again with all those feelings as before.

The weirdest thing is that I used to have nightmares about where I had 'come from' and he knew that it haunted me. He was so reassuring and always said that I would never be back in that situation. The nightmares left me about 18 months ago but now look at what's happened ... I'm going to be back there, if he gets his way and continues toward the D next year.

I guess that I am already facing the hard work - for me. I have started my counselling - for me, not for our M. That has to be a positive, right? I just wish that I could cry ... it would let out some of this pent up emotion and maybe I would feel a little better. I am running on empty but am fuelled by negativity right now.

As before, I would love to do lots of the things that others find for themselves when their WAS leaves. Unfortunately, even going for coffee is a treat at the moment - I have to watch everything that I am spending now that the small nest-egg I had tucked away has been discovered by H and he is holding a financial gun to my head.

Back from the library and have crashed - again. Can't get it out of my head that H is with OW this weekend, no matter how much I try. Went to find the spider-buster and it's missing, so that feels like a major trauma - decided to mow the lawn instead and H obviously had a 'clean up' in the shed before he left, so mower now buried and I can't be bothered to fight my way back and retrieve it. Everything is too much effort today ... and even my pep talk to myself amd re-reading threads is not working. My mind is torturing me.

Got the 5 Love Languages and Passionate Marriage from the library so will go read them - out in the fresh air. Coffee and a sweater ... cats by my side. :o(

OK - pulled myself out of this mood ... somehow. I think that my sister phoning and telling me how proud of me she is, really helped! She's been with her family on vacation and we haven't spoken in a while so she had no idea what was going on here. I told her how I have been GAL and looking after myself - with my buddies here at DB'ing and she was very pleased (((thank you))) It's so tough with her being in the UK and me here in Oz.

Finally took the yard brush and knocked down those webs! Will probably have to go paint the alfresco ceiling now as there's spider goo everywhere! Anyhow, at least that's one good job done and out of the way. Tomorrow the weeds are getting it ... !

Have been shaking in temper at times today but the work helped. Took some time out in the garden, just chillin and doing some knitting - faithful cats by my side :o)

Thinking about H coming around next week and how the conversation will go. I already know that I am going to dress to kill - and be 'out' when he arrives. I shall walk in to the house 10 minutes after he gets here .. well, OK - maybe five! (I will be watching from a safe distance and time my entrance perfectly).

If he wants to talk about R, do I go along with it or just answer his question and divert the conversation?? It interesting to know why he wants to come around ... usually he has a pre-set agenda but this time I think that he just feels bad as he said that he was unable to meet me this weekend for coffee. Who knows? Ah well, off to read 5 Love Languages. Catch you here tomorrow for anyone that's around.... sleep well, if you can.

Hi Eskimo

Glad you are feeling a bit brighter. Unfortunately the ups and downs of our emotions will be here for quite some time.

From what I gather you need to avoid any R talk, I am sure that is what the more experience DBuster will advise when they check in.

I am about to re-read DB still waiting on my copy of DR to arrive, hopefully Monday, fingers crossed.

Try not dwell on what your H is up to or thinking Eskimo, just concentrate on your own state of mind and body which is more important than anything at the moment.

Just quickly what kind of cats do you have, we have a ragdoll.

Oz

Thanks Oz - I know that you are right. Tried to get DB from the library today but they don't have it - at all! I told them that they should get it :o)

My cats are pure-bred moggies of the most delightful kind!!! Both tortoiseshells but one is brown/black with a bit of white whilst the other is mostly white with very little brown/black. They are my best friends in the whole world right now ... both sleep with me every night and they are so responsive to my moods. Just goes to show that we get back what we put in and boy, do I put in heaps of love for those two! H is missing out, of course. I can't believe that he would leave them, never mind me.

I would love to have a ragdoll ... lucky you.

We have never been cat people, but I tell you, I wouldn't be without our little girl, they are so loving, I don't know why I waited all this time to get a cat.

Pets are great therapy and they are family and that is why I was so worried trying to find somewhere to live that would let me have them.

Have a good nights sleep Eskimo.

Oz

Good Morning Nell,

From my experience about R talks. When I initiated the talk H had little to no patience to talk. This was true most of the time. There were a few rare instances when H and I would be together and I would ask a few questions or make a comment on observations about our R and H would engage a conversation. It was always hard to tell when it would be a good time or a bad time. I eventually adopted the rule of NO R TALK initiated by me.

In my experience when H initiated the R talk, we talked. It's quite a different matter when they start it. Remember, they only do what they want to do. If they begin R talk they want to talk. H and I have had some of our best conversations when H initiated the R talk. We have had some of our worst when I did.

My Advice - When H WANTS to R talk.....TALK.

My Advice - Nell DOES NOT start a R TALK, ever.

My advice - Nell NEVER brings up the OW, ever.

My advice - If H talks about the OW, Nell only listens.....He may do this, mine has.

I agree with you about pets. H and I always had a black labrador retriever. We got him two years before we married and he died at 15 1/5 when our son was 1 1/2. It was very hard. When my son turned 5 I wanted to get son a dog. It was apparent he would be an only child and to me a boy should have a dog. H was dead set against it. H left us just after my son turned 9. Within 5 weeks of my H leaving I went out and bought a golden retriever. Tucker quickly became a member of the family. We love him so....The joy he has brought to son and I cannot be measured. I am so glad I did that, no regrets!!!

When H first saw/heard about the dog he was mean. He wouldn't let the puppy near him, he wouldn't pat him, wouldn't visit son. (MY H TRULY LOVES DOGS) This dog was not his idea. This dog was going against his idea. It was not Hs want. My H was in a full blown MLC. Over time Tucker has wagged his way into H heart. H will never admit he is a good dog. H is also reluctant to show he likes him. I worked really hard on Tucker to give him manners and tricks because one of the things H said to me when he found out about him was "You will never be able to raise a good dog". I had to prove him wrong. I did!!! Everyone marvels at this dogs behavior. The last few times H was here he was good to Tucker. No pats but he laughs at him and lets him outside and brings him inside. He even gave him a scrap off his dinner plate. It's been all about time. Time heals.

I will be anxious to see what you accomplish next.

I also want to say that I believe that your H is in a MLC. The degree may not be as severe as my H. Nevertheless, I see signs of one. I think for now you should treat your sitch as if his is in one.

Remember.....H will only do as he wants. It's all about his wants. If H wants to see and talk to you nothing will stop him. If H doesn't want to see and talk to you everything will stop him. Don't even try and read into the "whys" right now.

Remember.....Everything you are doing is for YOU. Getting H back will be the reward for your hard work on YOU.

Remember.....This one is really hard. Have NO EXPECTATIONS of H at all. You will work like a beaver and H will not notice or you will do nothing at all and H will notice everything. You cannot second guess H right now. It is most likely the more you do will catch H eye in a positive manner and create him to second guess his choice. The less you do will catch Hs negative side and validate the reasons he left.

DB is first all about you and second about bringing H home. H will not come home if things have not changed. H will not come home if he doesn't like the changes. H will not come home if he thinks the changes are simply to rope him back.

DB has to be genuine and real and only with time, when the changes don't reverse, H will know they have become real and only when the changes stay constant over a period of time is when H will drop his guard and fear and think more stongly about returning to the relationship.

It's hard Nell, you are at the beginning. I know you have said 3 months but that is really not very long. You have positives in your world with H. Do more of what works and less of what doesn't. It's really that simple. The hard part is imagining the outcome. Right now you could be working your butt off for a D or you could be working your butt off for reconcilement. I would be working my butt off in hopes of reconcilement. The fact is if you do nothing, you will most likely be in a D.

Saturday AM here and have lots to do around my house today. I will pop back in later in day after you get up.

Take care and keep you PMA!!!!

Sanderika

Your H may not say anything about what you've done around the house or to yourself...my H never did...but believe me, they DO notice. They've adopted this martyr attitude where they did everything and you did nothing, so OF COURSE you're going to crash and burn without you.

And then they look around and you're managing just fine. It knocks their socks off.

As I said, my H never said anything, but there's no way he didn't notice how the house was always picked up, flowers were out, it smelled good, etc.

Avoid the temptation to point it out. He WILL notice. But you've just got to let the changes work their magic.

SD

Thanks for the positive posts this morning - just what I needed. I have been awake since 4am and you can only imagine my thoughts, knowing the OW is in town (or so I believe). Getting out of bed in the small hours makes the bad thoughts a teency bit more managable.

It's that tramp that is shaking my world right now - without her around, I truly believe that I would have more chance to win H around. I know how quickly he falls 'in love' - he has told me that his loyalties are divided and admitted that he loves her ... how can I compete when he wants to run away from me and she is such a pull for him right now? All he sees in her is good and so far, all he sees in me is what has gone wrong in the past years. I know how to address the balance know (well, at least I am getting it!) but the more he is pulled by his EA/PA, the less chance I feel that I have in him acknowledging me. OOooh, I could scream with frustration and pain right now. I just don't think that I can do this ... :o(

BTW - I am going to let the weeds have a reprieve today ... they can wait until Monday. I have decided on rewarding myself for a week hard at DB'ing last week and treat myself to a duvet day today. It's tea, chocolate biccies and a pile of library books for me ... and no guilt.

Started reading 5 Love Languages last night and although some of the messages are good, I don't like the style in which the author has written. Getting a bit bored with it (half way through) but will continue ... I don't want to miss a shred of any advice at this stage. Seems though, as is usual, all of these things are so much easier to instigate when H is not WAH. I wish now that I could have controlled my temper more before my H did walk. I would be in such a better situation to deal with this ...

(((Sanderika))) I keep reading back on your posts ... perhaps I am just going to have a half duvet day, afterall! I won't get that PMA if I give in to my current mood. I just wish that I could find some positive affirmations from him - but that's my needy side talking, I know. More work needed on that and it's counselling day for me, tomorrow!

I realise that I am lucky to have some time on my side - there are jobs to do in the house before it could be marketed (it's a new house but just not finished) but H is not apparently in too great a rush to finish these things, although we have discussed them. I get confused. He's giving off so many signals and all I see is his determination to do what he wants to do.

I know that he still has a great deal of feeling for me/loves me (but not as a husband should, as he keeps telling me). The more I feel I am doing the right things, the more I feel that he is trying to convince himself otherwise - including validating his feelings with OW. I know him and his belief surrounding infidelity - this is a HUGE step for him to have taken and I know that it's not just a 'fling' as some blokes in MLC have - that's why I am SERIOUSLY so concerned about it. Trouble is, he doesn't see himself as having an A as he told me our M was over before he did anything about it - a pact that we had both always agreed to so that we could live in the security of a non-cheating M.

SDFG - once again I am inspired!

I have turned my bad mood in to a mediocre one but have spent the morning working on that and doing stuff that will REALLY show H, even if he doesn't comment, on how I am turning things around and GAL - even if it is only to look after my home a little more than I have of late. I have moved furniture, changed around the soft furnishings, cleaned everything that is standing still (though it was already clean - even the cats have run for cover)!! I have altered around two of our bedrooms and the house largely does not represent how it looked a few days ago! I wonder if he will notice?

I have put away my 'personal' bits'n'bobs - he complained a few weeks ago that our home was all about me and displayed none of him and so I have hunted around for the small bits that are left here of his. I have carefully but deliberately, placed a Science book on to the coffee table and one or two other things around the house - I'm sure that he will notice those! I haven't overdone it so that he considers it phony but just a few changes to say that I accept that this is his home too. I have moved his desk back to where it was, prior to his moving out and I have cleared off my own desk ... it was a bit of a tip - untidy desk, untidy mind??!!

Tomorrow I shall tackle all the leaves that have blown on to the patio and are making a nice skirt around the cats jungle gym! A job that we have both promised to do for ages.

I am surprisingly finding solace in working on the home and making it more 'us' friendly than he seems to think that it was previously. My financial plight does not allow me to go out and buy the things that I would like to in order to enhance my efforts at this time but he will appreciate that fact and hopefully just comment on what I have managed to do. Even if he does not, I just hope that it will make him start to think.

Oh hear me whittering away - sorry but it just helps to vent all this stuff when I am a home alone abandoned wife. Thank you for being there (((hugs)))

Looking forward to Counselling Session #2 tomorrow! Just wish that I could get H to come with me ...

He has asked me to go with him in the past - but I was a total non-believer. Now I am really in to it (yes, just after the one session)! Anyone got any ideas of how I could persuade him ...?? H is coming down to see me this coming week and I would love to have something positive up my sleeve. I'm sure that he will initiate R talk and that would be my moment ... any thoughts gratefully received.

Oooh, just thought of another one for you and this is a BIG one -sorry to be so demanding today!

How can I possibly procure WAH in to spending Friday 11 Sept with me - rather than potentially the start of a weekend with OW? I understand that it's a long shot ....

It will be our 16th WA and, as he let me down badly on my July birthday, is there something that MAY help him to make up for that??!! I know that I can't make him do what he doesn't want to but sometimes you can lead the horse to water - he just may not take the drink. I also know that I am undoubtedly looking outside the DB'ing confines on this one ...

*Hopeful*

Is that the Relationships Australia counselling Nell? Is it expensive or means tested?

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Cas - I might also say that if you have any special circumstances, Rel Aus. are happy to hear you out. They haven't charged me a cent for anything and I have spoken to them heaps on the phone. I also managed to get a Rebuilding Course (although it hasn't taken place yet) down from $180 to just $40 when they heard my circumstances.

Best advice, if you go down this road, is to find where your local branch is and go direct, rather than through the state office. I did that initially and they denied that counselling was even available - said that I should go via my GP! Go direct. Good luck, if that's what you are doing.

Great, thanks Nell. I am unsure if that's the path I'll take but I need to weigh up my options.

Cas

For sure - it's all about knowing what's out there and, to my benefit, I have been getting some great advice from folk that I worked with recently whilst doing an agency stint.

What I have found, which appeared to disarm H, was that knowledge is power - and he didn't like it. I think that he felt I was bluffing on going to seek legal advice but when I brought out the packages of information, he almost choked.

It really made a difference and instead of him now speaking to me like I am dirt beneath him, he seems to have found a new respect in that I did take the reigns and I am prepared to forge my way forward, if necessary. His attitude changed, even though his threats did not.

Evidently, I don't want things to go as far as me having to counteract upon his legal action. I have to admit that he has not threatened D for a long time now but he continues to force me in terms of $ for mortgage and bills, even though he knows I am struggling to find work. He did not go through with his threat of valuing the house this weekend, but I suspect that is only because he was busy with 'entertaining' this weekend. When he comes to see me next week, I am fully prepared for that to be top of his agenda once again.

Nell, for many months divorce and finances were my H's specialty. However, when it came to the crunch nothing happened. This somehow always became my fault in his eyes and I was blamed for stalling. With the advice of a DB coach I kept saying, "This is not my preferred option but I will not stand in your way if this is the way forward for you." Nothing then happened and still hasn't.

Hi Eskimo

I am glad you have been able to keep busy, it is very important that you do that even though it can be hard, I know been there done that.

You really just have to keep going with doing things for you that make you happy. I am proof that this does work, just from this weekend.

Not sure about how you would get him to spend a particular date with you, I think the more wise experienced ones will be able to advise on that one.

It is all about respect, I learn't from this that my H had no respect for me but I think he has now found respect for me, given what I have been doing without him and he has definitely noticed that.

Keep at it Eskimo, better go and do some work now, will be back after our morning meeting.

((((Eskimo))))
Oz

Thanks for that reassurance (((Cas))). I am fully expecting that if he has been with OW this weekend then he will up the ante again when he comes down during the week. The thing is, our finances were managable when he lived here but now that he is a WAH, he has doubled all the bills by taking a rented apartment. He says that is my doing as I made it untennable for him to live here with me, whilst (he was) emotionally separating. I just don't think that he should be putting financial pressure on me, as well as everything else, at this time. I blamed his taking an apartment on having to set up his love-nest and he tells me that is my paranoia kicking in ... go figure! I don't see why I should be pushed up against such a financial wall just because of his adulterous behaviour. What is also angering me is that he has borrowed money from his parents to accommodate this secondary lifestyle and now he is pushing me to sell our home so that he can pay them back - as well, of course, as move on in his life.

Thinking things over at the weekend (yes, every second is agonising when you imagine that WAH is with OW), I have come to conclude that they are meeting every second weekend.

When you have known someone for so long, as we have, you can tell if they are hanging out with someone new - things that he says and the way in which he says them are NOT him. I have accused him in the recent past of spitting out 'someone elses' poison - it appears that the tramp is drip feeding him stuff to emotionally kill me off with and like the fool he is currently being, he's complying. This is just not him - this is not my H. He would never behave this way - and yet he is. He says that he does not discuss me with her (and vice versa) but she has been in my home, she is aware of who I am and she even told him that she felt 'threatened' when they had only met once, at that time! I reckon that the tramp has her claws well in to him and he is lapping it up because his wife is so neglecful of him - usual MLC story, no doubt.

Knowing my H, he's in this for the long haul and it is breaking me ... I think that maybe I should just accept what he is saying and realise that things, for him, are dead between us. Would it be any easier on me if I just gave up? I doubt it but maybe acceptance is where I need to be ...???

I struggled to sleep last night, was awake early again this morning. I rushed to see if there were any emails from him. Nothing. This tells me that OW is either still not departed interstate or he has not had time to catch up with his email - either way, a hurtful scenario. I know that I should not be thinking this way as we can not second guess what is happening. These thoughts kill me and I am going in to a downward spiral again. Thank goodness that today is counselling day.

Last night I tried to finish Five Love Languages but I couldn't get to grips with it. I think that there are some good messages there for those who are still living together but it's almost irrelevant when you are separated and have such little contact with WAS. I felt much the same about Mars and Venus too ... there were some good things in there but I was mostly 'flicking' as I couldn't settle to anything.

Likewise, my C suggested Passionate Marriage but that seems to be for when your life is back on track and you have a M to be passionate about! For my money DR is the best for me at this time, but despite how often I re-read it, I'm not getting the message of how to carry out the techniques. It is so counter-intuitive, as most agree, and I am struggling. All I have learned is that with H feeling that I have neglected his feelings over time, to go dark and have NC would be the wrong thing for us.

I don't want to ask him what day he is planning to visit this week but I want to be emotionally prepared. It's ten days since I have seen him and I long for him being here again. Thing is, after a few hours he disappears and I feel like I am starting from scratch again .. it's just so hideous waiting for almost two weeks just to be thrown a scrap. I have asked that he spend time with me one weekend but that was ignored. I won't ask again as I see that is needy and pursuing behaviour, not allowing him time "in his cave to stretch his elastic band" and I am trying to go 180 on that emotion! H has no real reason for calling this week so it will be interesting to hear how he leads the way.

I have had such a tough weekend. I don't know how I got through it to be honest. It's only this forum which is keeping me sane right now. As always, thanks for being here and allowing me to vent my massively over-inflated spleen

almostdonebut stronger....find me on facebook.
I'm going to read your post soon.

Thanks for reply - I'm not on Facebook as it's caused a heap of trouble for me recently - I need to stay off there. Could you maybe cut and paste your advice if it's already there, please???

Really appreciate you contacting me - thanks for any advice. I'm struggling so badly this past few days.

Hi Eskimo

Just a thought too when your H does come over and you will have to be ready all the time, because you don't know when he will turn up, SMILE, SMILE, SMILE. Even though you are dying inside your H cannot see that on the outside, he needs to see the happy, vivacious Nell he fell in love with all those years ago.

Don't forget let us know how the C session went.

Oz

Thanks Oz
Yes, I have been practising my best *SMILE* today - even though it's been through the pain.

C went really well - I took my brainstorm piece of paper and C photocopied it so that we can start working on it over next few sessions. She was so happy that I have been doing all the reading and have so much insight to what's going on and she reckons (no guarantees, of course) that our situation is totally fixable. Thing is, I believe her but don't know how to get H to a point where he would come with me so that he can hear that message ... also, would he give up OW to work on things?? Not a cats chance in hell, I would say, at the moment.

Anyhow, C was very good. I do feel her value when I am there but I lose it all quickly when I come out. I almost cry in the sessions, which as you know, I am desperate to do but I don't want to waste my valuable C time by blubbing! By the time I get home, the tears have gone back to their well again and although I try to back track on the conversation so that I can tempt them back, nothing gives.

So far today, not a word from H on text or email. Don't know what to do but know what I am not going to do and that's contact him! I shall wait and see what happens by this time tomorrow ... and then possibly wait some more. Thinking of refusing for us to meet at home but holding out and seeing if he will meet on neutral ground. Not really sure what I want today :o(

BTW - C said that whilst this site was brilliant and she supports it, being here all the time is wrong - it compounds my negative feelings and I am getting too wrapped up in this part of my life. She said that I must GAL more ... even though she understands my circumstances with no-one here, lack of finance etc ...

Tomorrow, it's cycling in the morning and the weeds get it in the afternoon (yes, that old chestnut!). Just pray for good weather now ... my eyes are turning square on this computer. No substitute for a girl-friend and a coffee, I must admit.

*Pulling my hair out* desperate that H still hasn't contacted me but feeling that OW must have gone by now ... Feel sure that he will email tomorrow - or perhaps is he waiting on me. Don't know what to do. I don't want to give in and contact first but then I don't want to ignore him as this has been one of his issues and I have decided through advice here, not to go dark on him or 180 on this point. Anyone - advice please ... ???

As far as this site goes, I hung on to every second I could be here at the start. I don't see anything wrong in that in the beginning as you need to feel secure in what you are doing and it gives you a feeling of being connected with those who know your pain.

As you go along and things start to slowly improve, coming here is good to let everyone know and get their feelings and advice on where to go to from that point.

Yes, you can get to wrapped up in it, but as long as you do spend some time getting out and doing other things, I see no wrong in being here.

Just my opinion, but I tell you this has been my sanity saviour and I always feel much better and more calm once I have received my daily dose of help from my friends here.

You are doing fine Eskimo, it is early days yet, you just have to believe in yourself. Enjoy your cycling and weeding, but do not contact him at all, let him take the lead.

Oz

Hi Nell

Just checking in on you...

I think this may be a long post

Apologies in advance.

Quote:

Can't get it out of my head that H is with OW this weekend, no matter how much I try.

You've got to I'm afraid. The only person you hurt by obsessing is yourself. Do you think it has any effect on them? Michelle describes the stop sign thing. Whenever thoughts like that creep into your mind you envisage a huge red stop sign and switch your brain to something else. Give it time, it works.

Quote:

already know that I am going to dress to kill

GOod plan but make sure you are not ott. Be nonchalant - 'Oh this old thing?' Knowing you look sexy as

Quote:

If he wants to talk about R, do I go along with it or just answer his question and divert the conversation??

Listen but do not really engage, as in do not react. Never disagree openly, it only reinforces their view. Read up on validating and active listening. Sanderika was spot on with her advice to you.

Quote:

It's that tramp that is shaking my world right now - without her around, I truly believe that I would have more chance to win H around... how can I compete

Admittedly she is an issue, but don't give her such importance in your thoughts. There is not competition, don't even make it one. You know that you are fabulous, that is all you need to know. Self- assurance (but not arrogance) is a very attractive trait.

Quote:

Started reading 5 Love Languages last night and although some of the messages are good, I don't like the style in which the author has written.

I know what you mean but the ideas are good. For example, it showed me that my h still shows me love as he buys me presents and gives me things still. I realised that this is his love language. Mine it quality time and I was feeling unloved as this need was not being met. It helped me a lot to realise this.

Quote:

I just wish that I could find some positive affirmations from him

It is too early for that. It will come in time.

Quote:

He's giving off so many signals and all I see is his determination to do what he wants to do.

I'll tell you this now, the thing that finally started bringing me and my h closer together was selling our house. THat was when we started communicating as I was no longer 'fighting' him. I have to admit it was the best thing I could have done. I was cut off in my old house with all the memories brewing with no real access to anywhere. Now I am in a cottage in London with access to everything and happier memories. I don't recommend it as a strategy but I just thought I would tell you that it is not the end of the world.

Quote:

I have put away my 'personal' bits'n'bobs - he complained a few weeks ago that our home was all about me and displayed none of him

He moved out, what does he expect?

So, when he comes round next week I don't think you can plan for every eventuality of what he may say but you can decide to adopt some general rules that you will follow.

- Be calm
- Do not react
- You don't have to answer everything straight away. It is fine to say you will think about something.
- Have a positive attitude and show happiness and calm.
- Do not be needy.
- Think before you speak
- Listen

You spend a lot of time thinking about what he is thinking and doing and coming up with scenarios. Start thinking about you and what you will be doing. Your situation at thome means you have a lot of time to dwell. That isn't good. As your c said, start to GAL and focus on that. It's early days but it will do you so much good.

(((Nell)))

Thanks Oz - I think that's more or less what the C was alluding to - just do other things. It's kind of tough when you are on your own though - no family and only two brand new friends, both with issues of their own.

I've hit rock bottom tonight. I found THE LETTER which assisted H to drop the bomb. I read it looking for something to comfort me. Instead it has shaken me all over again. I realise that he was telling me that he doesn't feel like he has loved me in years and wonders if our M was a mistake from the beginning. He says he had doubts but made the most of it all - and yes, we have had the best of times but now he thinks that he is not being fair to either of us. I wish that I had not read it ... I was feeling bad because of the weekend and now I have added fuel to my own fire. Can I go much lower than I feel?

I am so desperate for some company and he has still not yet said when he is coming over. I have plans to meet one girlfriend (possibly) on Wednesday and another on Sunday but that's it. Another week and I am dying - this is a miserable existence ... I can't do it for much longer. Should I just pack up and go back to the UK ...? I don't want to and there's not much else for me there nowadays but at least getting a job would be far easier. This isolation is so cruel ... I am such a social animal normally and to not speak to a soul in days is the worst situation imaginable for me. I am going demented ....

This letter has shaken the small amount of confidence which I had as I now realise that I may be fighting for something which has just never been there

Thanks for responding with such candour and good sense, JCJ. It has come at the time I most needed a good pep talk - see my post of this evening.

I will re-read again tomorrow when I am more focused although I know that every word makes sense. I am just losing it tonight

I did wonder how he would feel if we got to the stage where the house is to be sold. We had talked about selling it and moving (together) before but as we are involved in taking the builders to court (long story), we have held off. Now it seems that he wants to move along but for different reasons, of course. The threat of his getting the valuation this weekend did not come to fruition but I don't think that it will be long before he starts pushing again.

Good idea to put the stop sign infront of me fo OW thoughts. The other thing is to do the rapid eye movement scenario but it takes too much effort and can make me feel dizzy - guess that one is not for all.

I appreciate you sticking around and continuing to guide me. I think that I need every little bit that I can get right now. It's great seeing the C of course but I know that she has not lived this so to have you people here with me is worth even more in many ways. Pity you weren't all like a branch of McDonalds and you were on the corner of my block and open 24hrs for a face-to-face!

Look forward to you checking in soon.
You cottage in London sounds fab - my sister is in Marlow, so I wasn't far away from you in June - would have come visiting, if only I had known!!

(((hugs)))

Nell, this is the time to show yourself how strong you are. You can do this. Packing up and coming back to the UK is the very, very last resort and you are not even close to being there yet are you

Wise words from Michelle - believe nothing of what they say and half of what they do (or something to that effect). When they are in that fog their words do not reflect your entire relationship. Feelings change in a positive way as well as in a negative way.

We have all heard it. In fact, I heard nothing which in some ways was even worse. The most I have ever got out of my h is 'I don't know' to any question generally there was no response... so I stopped asking. His actions speak louder these days. He asked me out last Saturday and I turned him down as I was busy. Before last March he wouldn't speak to me!

You can do this.

Hi Nell,

I have been lurking about this weekend, not really posting.

Got issues here to deal with.

Please do not contact H. If you do not hear from him, let it be.

You have gone even further in your description of your H and his state of mind. I am even further convinced this is a MLC.

There is nothing you can do right now to bring him out of it. It has to be his journey. The OW is a product of it and he will tire of her and move from that relationship eventually. That is why you should not give it too much attention. Very, very few of these MLC affairs grow permanent.

You are doing well by working on you. It is understandable how difficult this is and you are entitled to days like this past weekend. The more you get out there the better off you will be. The more you GAL and practice a PMA behavior the better and quicker you will adjust to the sitch.

IMO, going back to the UK could produce:

Scenario #1: H decides after a short period of time that he truly misses Nell, the distance (going completely Dark and Detached) from Nell makes him realize he wants his marriage and pursues Nell to return.

Scenerio #2: H loves it that you are gone and gets along quite nicely without you and follows through with the sale of the home and it enables him to have the OW or whomever else he chooses and your marriage is over.

I have said this to you because there are always two or more possible outcomes to everything with a MLC H. I want you to realize that you cannot predict his behavior or manipulate the outcome of your choices, H is in a land of aliens. Aliens are not predictable because we know very little of them and likewise we know very little about the MLC H mind and what makes it tick.

Your best plan is to DB for you, DB your surroundings. H will and is noticing. H will like what he sees. With your changes it is hopeful to bring him home.

Your H is living in a personal h*ll right now that is a definite. We all have learned that while it appears they are happy it is really the very contrary. Their life is full of storms. Their minds never stop either. The lighthouse (Nell) is a welcome sight. The only way to make H calmer and forgiving is with repeated behaviors. H has to learn to trust Nell and feel it is safe again. They are very guarded with their emotions. Time and patience will draw them back.

You also must keep in mind that it may only be to bring about a friendship. I guess that is where I am at. I am wondering if I am only to ever get to the friendship stage and this is the end of the road for me. I am sorry, I am feeling down.

Nell carry on with hope, please have no expectations.

I stress to you to get busy because I do not want you to be where I am 4 years from now. I have come to realize lurking about that the quicker this is resolved the better. The longer the MLC continues the harder it is to reconcile a marriage. My sitch has lasted way to long. I do not really feel in my heart that we can overcome this. We have grown to be very different people. Time I suppose can also be a detriment.

Keep your chin up (((((Nell)))))...Look and move forward. You are doing better than you think you are.

Sanderika

JCJ has provided you with such extraordinary wisdom, Nell. Read and re-read! She offers iinvaluable insight and I think she has given a clear perspective on your situation.

Focus on you, that's all you can change/control. You have no control over H or the time he spends with OW.

Try not to focus on what he says now or in the past. We've all heard those lines before. My H has said most of them before. Just last week he wanted a divorce so he didn't have to deal with me but when I reflected on this all our recent dealings had been initiated by him!

Take it easy, love yourself and don't forget to journal!

(((((Nell)))))

Cas

Not getting on the boards too much could be a good thing, but I don�t think your counselor really understands what we do here. There is a lot of support here. As I�m sure you�ve already learned. There is no substitute for girlfriends, true, but this is pretty close. And what�s more, we�re all with you in a lot of ways.

If you want to contact him that�s up to you. I would give it a few days and wait for him to contact you. It�s part of not pursing. It�s part of showing him that you do have your own life.

That letter you found is laughable. Read all the posts�.you�ll probably see that more than half of the WASs have written or said the EXACT same thing. Here we call it �the script�.

You MUST get out and meet people. I don�t want to see excuses about being alone in a new country. Surely you can get to a gym or a book club or a library�.something where you are out of the house. Continue to look for a job. It may not have to be something you plan to keep long term but maybe something for you to do until you do come across something more your pace and in your field.

Believe nothing they say and only half of what they do. Learn that and repeat it often.

I don�t know if you have read my posts, but if you do, I hope you find hope and encouragement there.

My H too left for an OW which he still won�t admit. He says he left first, then started up with her. Give me a break. Phone records prove otherwise. But I will never get him to admit that and I know he can�t. To admit that is to admit to being too low of a human being, so we agree to disagree, but I�ve never told him as much. Why bother? I understand he can�t and will never admit it.

Like JCJ, I�ve made progress and last January and this April things were BAD. If we had had the papers at either time, they would have been signed. I know now he�s grateful we did not and no papers have been signed. I don�t even think they�ve been drawn up even though he says they have been. He�s threatened me with them a few times, but I put a stop to that by telling him to go get them. Yet to see those papers.

Sanderika is right. This does sound like MLC. And these OW�s are a result not the cause. He needs to see this out and eventually, it will end. They most often, very often do. I don�t know if the OW sees that this dude is sort of �off� or what, but it does end.

By the way, I�ve never posted anything on FB about how to get rid of the OW. Really, I don�t know that you can do anything to get rid of her within legal limits immediately. You get rid of her by being the better option. It�s a long process but if you are patient and diligent you can.

I recently have had the great pleasure of pointing out to my H �Unlike some other people you�ve chose to associate with lately, through all of this, I have been loyal to you. I have stood by you. I have taken care of you and yours in many many ways. I deserve to be treated like I have been loyal and respectful.� He just stared at me for a moment, and I could tell it was sinking in. He had never really thought of it that clearly. Then he finally says �And how should I be treating you then?� I told him �That�s for you to figure out and decide.�

But since then, the effort to be respectful and loyal is noticeable. And that�s how I want to be treated.

Hi Eskimo

Oh definitely don't even think about packing up and moving back to the UK. I know you are having a difficult time with not a lot of friends, but even just trying to get out and sit in the library and read or anything that gets you out and about and not sitting at home thinking and waiting.

Don't contact H unless you absolutely have to. As everyone here has told you your H is in alien territory at the moment and you have to try and look at him as though he is an alien, you can't let his moods and behaviour get to you.

Will be back after to see how you are.

(((Eskimo)))
Oz

It's good having you here JCJ - and you are right. I have already flitted back to the UK in June and it didn't work - not for him or, more importantly, for me.

I am repeating the mantra this morning: Believe nothing of what they say and only half of what they do. Mind you, with having found that letter again, it's very hard to keep the faith when such words sting like they do - how could an honest man write such from the heart if he wasn't truly feeling it?

I have also stopped asking things of H. I don't like the answers so why beat myself up? I have tried, as you did, to turn him down but he shows like it doesn't matter to him anyhow. He is so negative toward me and his attitude really is that he does not care. I must say, you must have been doing well to have the turnaround that your H has shown.

In my lighter days, I can see that yes, I can do this and yes, H will one day come home - how could he not? On other days, I take his messages to heart and apply them to our life as I know it to have been and the evidence is so clearly there - he ain't ever coming home.

Sorry that I am so negative but I can't shake this ...

Hi Sanderika
Firstly, I'm sorry to hear you sounding so down - you are the one that normally keeps us going here so I am concerned about what is happening in your world?

I guess that each day, something new is revealed and it helps others to assist us more - in finding 'the script' yesterday, I just saw things a little clearer myself, despite that the outcome was negative. I know that these OW are often reactive on the part of a MLC but some work and I feel that H is going to be one of those - I know him too well and I know how he operates. He would not have done this if he had any doubts at all of making it so. I know that doesn't account for the tramp but she is digging her nails in to him and I don't see her letting go any time soon - she has too much to gain. She has baggage, he doesn't. He stands to be quite wealthy soon (if and when our house is sold) - why would she let that slip through her fingers??

Certainly, your Scenario #2 is what was evidenced when I went back to the UK in June. He didn't make one move toward getting me back. His emails merely supported my decision to be there and gave me advice for stuff that I should do in setting up my new life back there. I could not believe that this was a man who was so adamant that we should have ever emigrated in the first place!

I agree that he is in Alien territory right now but as for him living a personal h*ll, I'm not so sure anymore. I believe that he was but he has changed and I see more of the change everytime I see/hear from him. He is getting tired of our sitch and it's making him resent me - even if he didn't before. I won't comply with his wishes to make this all go away quickly and so I continue to incur his wrath.

I feel sorry that you have endured your sitch for 4 years - I certainly don't want to treat in your footprints, if you will forgive me for saying so. Like you, I mostly feel in my heart that this can not be overcome anymore. I don't have any expectations either and yet I don't know where to turn next. He has always been the one to support and hold me up and now he is the dog that is biting me, despite the pats that I have been giving.

Thanks again for your encouragements (((Sanderika)))

Morning Nell (I will say Nell from now on rolls of the tongue easier)

I was beginning to wonder where you were.

The negativity is hard to shake everyone here can vouch for that.

The mantra of believe nothing etc is a good one, I have been doing that this morning as well.

Do you have something to do today that you can look forward to or is there something you can think of doing today. Depending on the weather in Perth at the moment why not go for a walk on the beach, sit and read or even just sit and let the peace of the ocean work its magic. Sorry if this sounds silly but that is how the ocean affects me and it is something I love to do, it brings a sense of peace and calm.

Oz

Cas - you are right, of course. It's just so tough when you are in a negative trough to listen to any words of wisdom

I am reading all the time .. it's a wonder my eyes haven't dropped out, so I am twice as pleased that I went and visited my optometrist last week to ensure that all was well

I have been trying to focus on me a bit more, rather than what H has said and done - and even what he is saying now, but after the email that I have just picked up from him, I crash and burn all over again. The email is so benign - so matter of fact and I guess that I was hopeful of a bit more than that after having not seen him in 11 days and only one short and negative text last Thursday.

I do hear the hope in stories like yours but I just wonder if other H's have loved their W's more than mine has apparently loved me

I know that he would be upset to hear me say that as he is ADAMANT that he has loved me throughout the years. The letter shakes my confidence in that and his actions now ... well, I need say nothing as you already know.

In starting to love myself today, I am going to take a panadol for this outragous headache which is gripping me like a vice. I just feel like crawling back in to my bed then but I feel that I should go get those weeds - I keep threatening them but they keep on getting away with it. I just wish that I had some real friends here to turn to - I think that having my 'virtual' friends here is wonderful, don't get me wrong, but I could really use some human comfort right now.

(((Thank you for listening - and caring)))

Nell, you won't get any kind words from him in emails, texts or otherwise, my H has gone back to the matter of fact emails with no emotion whatsoever. It is what they do regardless of the length of time in between seeing you or talking to you, they have checked out so to speak.

I have read on a few posts but I can't remember which ones, that reiterate that they still do love us but it is buried deep under all the other crap going on in their heads, they have to find their way out of all that to find that love that was and is always there.

I am sorry about your headache, take the panadol and perhaps try and have a lie down and slowly try to relax your body and let your mind wander to something pleasant, I sometimes find that helps to relieve the tension which will be behind your headache.

I wish I could give you a real hug Nell, there is nothing better than human touch when we are down.

(((Nell)))

Oz

(((Stronger)))
You must have been through so much personal pain as to have made you so wise.

The 'script' is what has sucked me in to this huge negative vortex, even though the weekend was bad, I seem to have got worse having read something that I had read and re-read all throughout June and part of July. Why it should send me crashing now, is a mystery. I'm guessing that it was no longer fresh in my mind and, as I have been working on positives, it reminds me of why we are where we are. I also think that I have always put H on a bit of a pedestal (not that he saw that) and I can not believe now that he would ever do anything other than that which he says he will.

Throughout this 3 months, he has often called me a liar for some of my actions and words which have not met his expectation but I am considering that maybe it is he who has lied - in leading a life for 17 years that was based on fragility, mis-communication and him not being true to himself, never mind me. This makes me feel angry, resentful and full of rage. It is a waste of two lives.

I like the words that you used to your H in your penultimate paragraph. I have read some of your posts but I sometimes find locating people on here a bit of a chore - there's so much info and it's knowing where to find it. I shall look more later.

Thank you for your positive affirmations and I hope that I can do as well as you have been doing - although quicker would be nice!

Take care - be kind to yourself and I hope that we catch up again real soon.

Hi Oz
Yes, I'm here. Sorry, just replying to the other posters ... it's all so good when people take the time and I do like to give a personal answer rather than a 'group' platitude!

Thanks for your words today ... I know that I have another post from you so I will answer that one next. I think that to know I am going through what everyone else is/has, validates my feelings and makes me realise that I am not going mad. I also think that doing my 'homework' from my C made me bring up stuff that I was not ready to, without support. I should have done it next weekend instead of being the swotty student that I am and now I have to deal with those feelings until I see her next Monday! It's all very negative stuff. Thing is, I am enjoying it ... it's like routing out the dirt that has been sitting there for so many years - I never want it to end - it's so cleansing and in so, I know that I will be healing, if that makes sense to you??

I do like the suggestion of going to the ocean ... I think that I will sort out my stuff here and do just that. Take my book, go get take-out coffee and sit and watch for those dolphins. Yes. That's another reprieve for those weeds

Good work Nell, I don't know if I could deal with C at the moment bringing up stuff, I don't think I am at that point yet, but if you are getting something out of it then that is great, just don't let them put you off coming here, it really is a godsend to know you aren't going mad and that what our H's or W's as the case may be say to us is like a script from a book, worldwide they all say and do the same or similar things.

I hope you have nice weather there for some dolphin gazing, such majestic creatures, you can't be unhappy when you see them oh and the weeds will still be there tomorrow. We have rotten weather here today.

Oz

Hi Oz - sorry, I forgot to wish you a Good Morning too - but you know that I do, so please forgive me (((Oz)))

You are right - why am I expecting him to be kind ... if he was that kind, he wouldn't have left me, would he? I just find the hot and cold routine a bit difficult to deal with and it signifies to me that, whilst he was 'reasonable' with me last week, I get the cold email this morning as if to say "I had a lovely weekend with OW, even though we are not going to discuss it but you should know that I am happy". See how I torture myself??? He would laugh at me for this, I just know it.

I like that you say the Alien love is buried deep under the crap in their heads. I believe that - I have to. If I believed that he has not loved me, I would crack up for sure. I guess it reminds me of being in a dark and spooky attic, looking for something that was precious - eventually you realise that you want to see it again. I just wish that H was as sentimental as I am.

Headache is clearning (((thanks))). I am perfectly sure that you are right in that it is a tension headache (I'm a nurse, so I can be sure of that!) and I know that I slept badly last night, despite the two babies being on the bed and watching over me. It's like they know that I am in a bad place and they are so gorgeous in keeping me company - I swear that they understand.

Now, as for the email, as I said H was very matter of fact. I had asked him some advice re practicalities of the garden and he answered very 'to the point'. I had mentioned that I was going to dig out the lawnmower and he said that he would give me a lesson in how to use it when he comes down this week (I should say that I am not totally pathetic but this is a new petrol mower that I have never even seen before, never mind used)!!

No mention of what day he is planning to visit and no asking if I was doing anything, so as to fit in with my plans. So, how do I answer?? I have left it for now and almost feel that I shan't respond until tomorrow as I have been 'too busy'. I am finding it hard to decipher the difference between 'playing games' (which is how he will see it)and doing a 180! How about something like "Thanks for your email. Sorry that I didn't reply yesterday as I was so busy. I will be happy for your advice when you visit later in the week. See you then'.

Trouble is, that still doesn't tell me when he is coming down and I need to know! I also noted in this email that he did not use my name, or his own. The little (xx) kisses that we always used are long gone from him - and from me, recently - not that he has noticed, or commented.

The other thing, Father's Day is on Sunday. I have always got him a card from the cats - as he does for me on Mother's Day. Now I don't know whether to send it or not - it's written and here on my desk, stamped and ready to go. I haven't bought a present this year (as is usually common practise for us both). Do I post the card, give it to him when he comes down or just put it in the bin as a (cruel) 180?? I think that it would really upset him not to get a card from the mogs but who knows? I really wouldn't mind him feeling the pain that I felt when I got nothing from him on my birthday but you don't always have to sink to the other person's level, do you. Any thoughts??

Hi Nell

Your two babies know full well what you are feeling that is why they are remaining close to you. My dog looks at me with such sad eyes lately and rests her head on my shoulder, the cat won't leave my lap, purring constantly and just staring at me. They know and they try to help comfort you in their own way.

You see your H sees you as an enemy and the cause of his unhappiness at the moment, until he wakes up and realises that this is not the case, you have to just keep working on yourself and not dwell on him.

You have to keep your replies very business like, just like dealing with a business partner (a good friend to me on this site gave me this wise information). Don't apologise for not replying immediately or thank him for the email that will just show neediness. Post any other replies you think of before sending and I am sure everyone else will help with a reply after when they wake up, get home. Even I still struggle with replies, I usually type them, save them, then go back again and play around with it until I am happy.

Don't expect him to use your name or anything, mine hasn't addressed me by anything other than "you" for a few months now, although occasionally he forgets and calls me by name, I do not give him a name either and don't expect the kisses either and do not give them either.

Not sure about the card issue, that is a tricky one and one that I think the experts will be better at giving advice on.

Hope some of this helps Nell.

Oz

Sure does help Oz - as always, thanks.

I get confused with all this 'validate his feelings' and then 'don't be needy' and often feel that the two overlap so neatly that it's no wonder we all get confused!

I am thinking that I just won't answer that email at all. He has ignored stuff from me in the past and I don't see why he should expect me to do any other. He said, when I challenged him "oh, I didn't know that you expected a reply - your words seemed like statements rather than questions" - so I shall use the same logic this time around. Afterall, a business partner would not ALWAYS expect a reply following a statement, would they?!!

It may also act as a 180 in that he will be expecting me to respond to any small contact, as that is what I have always done. Not this one.

Talk about hitting the nail on the head when you say that he sees me as the enemy at the moment - yes, that's just how it feels! Also, a little while ago, I mentioned that the kisses on messages had become very sporadic and that's when they ceased completely. He still uses my initials at times to address me, but not often. Our first initail is the same and so we have always used our middle initial too, just to differentiate on mail and stuff but it's kind of become one of the pet ways to address each other also.

You are so right about the babies and I am glad that yours are looking after you equally as well. The love of pets, eh? Totally undconditional.

Yes, it would be good to have some advice on the card, if any of the experts are listening!!

Be back later ... I'm feeling slightly more up than I was first thing this morning so that's a small gain, which is all that we can ask right now.

Hi again Nell,

I can hear your pain in your messages. I can't imagine that weeding is an inspiring task but you do need to set yourself a task today and complete it. Perhaps cycling is a bit too much at this early stage. Every day you need to set another small task for you to accomplish.......I like Oz's ocean gazing/walking but perhaps you could.......meditate (try petrea King's meditations from the library), bake, give yourself a manicure, pedicure or facial, watch a movie, journal, paint, go for a coffee, sit in a park, change the sheets and towels, pray, read or write poetry, plant some flowers. Just try to do some little thing for you. I struggled last week and I know Sunday I went to a waterside cafe and had a cappucino and it did me wonders!

Be kind to you

And then report back and tell us all what you did...we need to make you accountable!!!

Yes, you definitely have to be accountable for all your actions to us. We are all accountable to each other here.

Well here's the thing - you ladeeeeez are certainly inspirational - what - I'm telling you that??

I decided against a duvet day today and instead of pulling on my jim jams, I pulled on an old pair of pants and a scruffy T, donned my gloves, pulled up my sleeves and let those weedy suckers have it! WOW - did that feel good??

Whilst I was there, H got a bashing, I can tell you. If weeds are voodoo, he will be in intensive care now (expression only - I would NEVER wish that on him, or anyone - well, except maybe OW)!!

I really let rip of my emotions but was careful not to lie prostrate on the ground screaming and crying - I didn't want to frighten the neighbours cat though I thought at one point it may stop the other neighbours kid from screaming that constant high pitched wail of a terrible two's!

Anyhow, whilst down there, I bashed H for all the things that he said in the 'script' and for allowing our situation to get so out of control. I also, in Chapter Two, gave his parents a roughing up as they think that H is Mr. Wonderful and he could never do anything wrong. Well, I started to mentally draft a letter to them and tell them how wrong they were and what a liar he has been, how he has deluded us all as a family and how he has totally deluded himself as a H. I really want them to know the other side of the rose bowl that he is presenting to them - how he has been a coward and let me face all of our friends and family alone, whilst he ran to the succour of hiding under OW umbrella whilst the sh*t came flowing down around us and he left ME to deal with it all ..... oh yes my friends, the River Venom has burst it's banks and it's now all that I can do to stop myself from putting that draft in to an email and letting them have it.

Bad idea, eh??

Hi Nell

I know how you feel but as I was advised in my post write down all the bad stuff then burn it. Don't send it whatever you do, just get it out on paper and then burn it. SD told me to do this, burning this type of letter is a form of release.

Glad that you got dressed and went outside and did something constructive. You will feel much better tonight. Have a nice bubble bath tonight as a treat for your hard work.

Oz

Thanks (((Cas))). You are right - I am in pain, terrific pain, however, from my latest post you may see that I got to grips with myself a little earlier!

Tomorrow I am planning to go to the garden centre to get some plants - two have died in the front garden (prophetic!) and they need to be replaced, so that will be my thing for me, even if I can do nothing else.

Sorry that you were down on Sunday ... I think that coffee and sitting by the ocean is such an easy thing for us to do here in Aus. For others, coffee and sitting in the park has to work equally as well. How are you feeling as the week progresses?

I've also made myself feel good in just one phone call. I was struggling with H's advice to wash out the wheelie bin by tipping it over on it's side in the gutter and wash it out. It is really smelly with all the kangaroo meat that my furry friends are wasting right now (yeaukc)!. Anyhow, someone put me on to the Wheelie Bin Man and in a flash I not only have got him to come and clean it, starting next week, but I also learned that he lives just 5 doors away from me! What are the chances of that??? Still, for $7, job done and I not only take control of another domestic chore but I feel good that my bins will be sweet and smelling hygienic at last!

I have struggled with meditation in the past but I may try it again - thanks for the suggestions. Take care of you, too and come back soon

Yup! I'm getting good at stuff like that (((Oz))). I have put stuff in to balloons and let them go, too (figuritively of course as we know now that rogue balloons are polluting our environment!) and I have 'floated boats with vile messages' in them. Feels good for a while.

I am going to take that bubble bath - will ease my now aching muscles, if nothing else!

Just wish that H would get back to me and tell me what night he is planning on coming down ... I think that him holding me in limbo like this is unfair - or do I just take the bull by the horns and tell him what night is good for me?? I don't think that he deserves options right now.

Fear not Oz - I shan't be put off coming here by anyone - it's my lifeline at the moment and you are all here most of the time - my C is there for an hour, once a week! I was always against C but H thought that it would be good for my personal issues (he thinks that I have heaps but has always said that kindly) and I think that he was right, anyhow.

I think that I am lucky in finding the C who works for me - it's my one and only experience but I had no expectations - other than what I knew that I didn't want to happen and which paths that I was not prepared to go down. She seems to be right with me and I respect her views and the way she is guiding me toward WANTING to work with her for my benefit. She seems pleased at me being proactive with the amount of insight that I have.

What I didn't have insight to, and you have highlighted it here, is that all of the MLC S's are reading from the same book - in so many posts, I have found myself nodding my head and saying "yes, H said that to me too" - you almost feel like you are being spied on! It's uncanny.

Weather here today has turned out nice, warm and sunny. I got quite hot doing the weed murdering. Now, with Cas's help too, I have my list of things to do for the week. Tomorrow will be going to get those two replacements plants, Thursday will be Dolphin day and Friday will be a quick bike ride, just to give it a shot and see how I feel about it! I thought that I may put my book in the basket, fill up my camel back or take a flask and go to the lake on our development - not too far and yet just nice to get out and about. I shall be there and think of you moving in to your townhouse Oz!!

I'm trying not to react, I'm trying not to react, I'm trying not to react ..... but I think that I reacted

I emailed the building disputes guy today to find out why we had heard nothing in terms of our hearing date (it was postponed in July due to our sitch) and I have just got a response back saying that H has already told them that he is not available until 6 October, due to work commitments ... now I want to know why and where he is going ... first thought, of course, is that he is having a trial placement in sister company interstate, where OW is. Of course, this is my bad mind working overtime, but is it?? I have told him often enough (when I was doing the wrong things) that he should just go and be over there with the tramp. Perhaps he is taking me at my word .... oh what am I to do??? I need to know what's happening but I'm darned if I'm going to ask. Might it be that this is his excuse for coming down this week afterall ... "... and something else that I should tell you"?

Oh why do they do this to us? You know what a bad weekend I have had and then the struggles with today. Now this .. just as I thought that I was going to have a reasonable evening.

Anyhow, in 'not reacting' I forwarded the email to H and just said that it would be nice if we could have discussions about things that concern the both of us in the future and I am sure that his 'absence' is for a good reason. I did not ask why and I doubt if I shall get a response either. He knows that I am desperate to get this case over with and yet he has not been bothered about it all the way along, in the two years that it has been going on for. I have always been the one behind it - and him when he is slacking.

Grrrrrr. I am furious. At the moment, I feel like telling him to go to h*ll (again) and filing for D myself. It's quicker and probably less torturous than this. How many slaps in the face do we LBS need before we realise that they don't want us and they will do anything to upset us??? Sorry - vent, vent, vent .....

Now I can't stop thinking about what he is planning on which is giong to take him away until October. It's a nice way to find out what your husband is up to, eh??

Don't do anything else tonight with regards to contacting your h. Even if he replies... leave it for now.

Will do ... thanks JCJ. I'm stomping around the place - I need to go have a shower and then I shall be back. My head tells me that all must be well but I have huge moths in my stomach and they are doing a tribal dance, I can tell you.

How are you doing today??

I know, it is so hard in the beginning. It will get easier though I promise. You need to really work on the whole assuming thing though Nell

it just makes you torture yourself. SG wrote a really good post on it once. I will try and dig it out. When I used to feel that way (and still do sometimes) I used to go and take it out on the swimming pool. That was a good way for me to not react emotionally. I used to tell myself that I will go for a swim first and take out my emotions on the water and then I'd usually wait 12-24 hours too. It helps.

I'm ok today. Having slight anxiety that h will never contact me again but I know that is extremely unlikely to happen. I'm working from home this morning on a project with my little cat sat under my chair snoring. It's very cute!

SG's post on acting as if and assuming...

Quote:

Great Question. ACT AS IF sounds like a vague concept.

ACT AS IF is real life, in the moment. In this situation, it's not pretend everything's roses and he's coming back any second now.

It can be something like he didn't call your son tonight like he was supposed to. He's living with another woman. She may even have kids. They Your kid's really really disappointed. You hurt for your kid if not for yourself. How do you act?

Unless you're in super control of your emotions, you probably often react according to how you think and feel about the situation.

ACT AS IF is about 'framing' if you look at it the 'Tony Robbins' way.

You'd probably act very differently if you assumed in the different manners as below....let's look at some options:

1) He's with HER.(aack!) She wants him to...run errands for her, , have dinner and or wild sex with her. How would you act?

2) He's with HER KIDS (argh!!!) He's going to HER kids soccer game, helping her kids with homework...watching HER sick kids. What would you do?

3) He's working. Probably ignoring her and her kids too. What would you say to your kid?

4) He's overwhelmed. She won't let him call your kid. She's watching his every move. What would you say to him?

5) He's a doofus. He forgot? What would you say to your kid?

6) He's overwhelmed by everything. He's sick. He wasn't trying to hurt anyone, just couldn't get it together?

How would you handle each of those situations? Most likely VERY DIFFERENTLY?

Your actions (that followed your assumptions) will guide the NEXT interactions with your H...and maybe even that kid's interactions with your H.

Which assumptions do you choose?

ACT AS IF with the high road. Or one of them. (sometimes it isn't crystal clear--probably 4 or 6, maybe 5. NOT likely to be 1-3.

Thanks for digging that out for me JCJ - I need to read it a few times for it to sink in I think but I see the message getting a bit clearer.

I also see an idyllic picture of you in that cottage and your little puss sitting under the chair! One of my little puss's is sat on H's computer chair along side me as I write - which is a 180 for her as she is normally climbing all over my desk trying to get at me! See, these techniques can't be that hard to learn when even the cat does it!

I can sympathise with your fears that H will not contact you again. I fear that all the time - especially as we don't have kids and it's only the house that's holding us together, for now. If you think that's 'extremely unlikely' to happen for you, why are you worried - is it just good old paranoia out to get you today? If so, you aren't working hard enough on that project, so come on - eyes down and give it your all! (Actually, ignore that, if you did then you wouldn't have been here for me this evening)!!

Good luck with the project and here's to our H's contacting us very soon.

Miaow, miaow, miaow, prrrrrr, prrrrrr from mine to yours!

PS - a bit too cold to get in our pool right now but the treadmill is feeling lonely so I guess that the idea translates!

Lol, it is quite idyllic. Yup, good ol' paranoia and that I am not working hard enough on my project. I actually need someone to tell me to get my eyes down and work sometimes as I have no one to do that as I work on my own.

We have no children either and now not a house. Not that the house was actually a helpful factor in my sitch apart from the selling process that helped us bond to this point, even though I held onto that house for so long in my heart. My h lives with his ow now also and it still has not stopped him contacting me. That is meant to reassure us both

Maple harrumphed back. She is not into purring - that would be giving away far too much affection and be far too friendly. She merely acknowledges others presence on her terms

I know I keep saying this but you will be fine. Just work on keeping that calm and cool.

Right... to my project

P.S - you have a pool! I'm in the wrong country!

Well, just got two emails from H - one four days after I sent it (prior to the weekend, go figure) largely inconsequential and now filed in the 'I will not respond' folder!

The other one re the builders situation, above. H was apologetic that he had not copied me in to his communication with the tribunal - he said that he meant to do so but it's wasted on me -that's his usual excuse for everything (he has a shocking memory)! He did not mention the reason why he is not available until October and I have also filed this email in the 'I will not respond' file. I shall wait and see if he brings it up in conversation when he visits later in the week - not that he has given a day on which to arrive still .... I'm beginning to think that he won't come afterall. Or is my 180 of not asking him what day starting to pay off and he is waiting ...??

Ok, i'll bite... project can wait.

You can always text or email and say something like...

'Hiya, what day did you have in mind to pop round this week?'

See what others say also...

The problems of working from home, eh JCJ?!! I love it. Mind you, any work for me would be great right now - as long as it pays enough to keep H off my back! I love working from home actually, when I get the opportunity but I know what you mean about self-discipline - it can be a struggle sometimes.

Women tend to get more attached to their homes, I believe. H doesn't seem to be missing it at all but then we have had such trouble since building and both of us have become disenchanted with the place. Trouble is, having left for the month of June and now the threat hanging over me of losing it, I want it that much more. Typical Cancerian, eh?

I'm not that convinced about your WAH. If you have no kids and he is living with OW - why is he still contacting you .. good for you that he is but what's his message?? Mmmm.....
yes, reassuring indeed, other than my H goes totally dark on me from Thurs to Tues when OW is about and even when she's gone (or he's back in town), his 'loyalty' remains with the tramp and not with me. That's how he is - black or white. It's also why I don't think that I have any chance of DB'ing working for me. In his mind, he's long gone and will never return - he's told me that - the M is dead as far as he is concerned. He can't see why I am hanging on as long as I have, never mind any longer! Mind you, it must be a thorn in his side having to financially support me whilst all he wants is the money to go off enjoy himself in his new life ... too bad.

Maple - great name! Typical behaviour of a cat and wouldn't she make a great DB'er with that attitude?!!

Don't feel very calm tonight - was all tucked in and settled to go to sleep after my nightly Horlicks when I had a panic and had to get up to check emails. I couldn't fight it and now I'm wide awake - no email but that's probably just as well or I could be as angry as I was earlier!

Ah, I might have a pool (which I always longed to have) but it's the old addage of "be careful what you wish for" isn't it? Just as I get used to it, it's all teetering on a knife edge ...

Are you at that project yet?!!

Yes - that would be a good opener! I am committed to waiting until tomorrow anyhow so will see what others think too.

He kind of left me an opener by asking a question at the end of his last email but I have chosen to not respond, as I said earlier. If I get blocked, I could always open that up and then add your suggestion on to the response.

Ta!

Hi Nell

What a busy night you have had, I have just been reading through the recent posts.

I am glad you didn't respond to the emails straight away, you would have shown to much anger which you don't want to do. You kept your cool which is great.

As JCJ says if you really want to know when he is coming you could just ask as suggested, but just remember to keep it real simple don't get carried away. Others may have a different idea but if he is planning on coming over he needs to understand that you have a life to and won't just be sitting there waiting for him to decide to show up.

Hope you managed to get some sleep, I found sleep to be so important even though getting to sleep can be hard and even just going to bed harder again, but for your own well being you need to sleep.

Will check in once I get to work.

Until then (((Nell)))

Oz

Nell, so pleased to hear you got stuck into that weeding and that you have plans for the days ahead. It's really crucial to yoour well being. When I was sick I had to set a goal and stick to it each day, otherwise I would get really low. Each morning I walked on the beach and dumped all my problems there and then as I walked off the beach I planned the day ahead. I'm in Qld btw.

Thanks Oz - you are right. I need to get H's answer on what evening he plans to come around as I can't let him think that I am just sitting here ... or out weeding the garden! I'm in stubborn mode today and not wanting to contact him but I guess that if I wait until lunch time, it won't seem like I have got out of bed and he is the first thing on my mind - though he very much is, of course.

I don't have trouble in getting off to sleep, funnily enough. I just wake early and feeling so very sick. It haunts me in the early hours and this morning I have woken up feeling like a horse slept on my chest ... no, not from the weeding (!!) but in my heart. The pain is so bad still that I do have physcial manifestations and it drags me down. I'm trying not to give in to it today but it's so easy when you see the lonely hours stretching out in front of you before it's bed time again. I feel like I am just existing until 7pm every night when I can gather up the cats, hot water bottle, cup of Horlicks and head off to watch some mindless tatt on Foxtel.

As you know, I am trying to GAL but there's nothing much going on around here - we are an hour away from the most isolated city in the world (ha! imagine it) and truly, unless you want to go in to the city, there is nothing going on. I'm just not that brave to head up there on my own and hang out in bars or restaurants, because that's all that there is. I also worry about my personal safety if I am out after dark. Coming home is problematic for me - we are on the edge of the bush and it can be pretty creepy at times!

I have managed to get in to the evening routine, as described, but I still can't find a routine for the day time hours. Once I can get work, that is going to help me so much. Applied for two jobs yesterday (they always turn out to be non-starters) and the agency are having another look around for me.

It's still very much on my mind what H's plans are and why he is not available until 6 October - that being a Tuesday, which is his usual day to return from interstate, when it's his turn to fly over there. I can't help but feel that it has something to do with that tramp but I must stop thinking about it - and in that way. Maybe it will turn out to be nothing like I am imagining and he will tell me about it when he's here. Thing is, it all highlights that there must be so much else that he is not telling me about too - he doesn't consider himself married any longer and so why should he share his diary with me?? It tears me apart that I am still legally married to him and yet I know nothing of what he is doing on a day to day basis. He has cut me off and his intentions are so clear in my mind - get rid of the house, get rid of me. End of.

Today there will be a trip out in the car! I am going to post off the scarf and some other bits'n'bobs for my friends birthday and then I shall head on out to find the replacement plants that need to go in the front garden. Need to control the spending - especially when I am in the plant nursery!

New friend said that she may give me a call later and meet for coffee/lunch at mine but not sure as she really didn't know what her plans were going to be. My life is one big uncertainty every day - I just don't know how much longer I can live like this. It's just too lonely to be living like a hermit.

Cas
Thanks for checking in on me

What you say is true - it's crucial to our health to keep focused and even positive. I am not looking after myself that well and so to even sit out in the sunshine is a step in the right direction! I have started to eat one piece of fruit a day too, which is a BIG challenge for me as I have never been good with it! Next step will be building myself back up to eating properly - with vegetables and not just 'snacks'. I'm sure others have gone through that 'cant be bothered to cook for myself' stage and just grab what's quick and easy.

Being in Aus, we do have lovely beaches! You sound like you are closer to yours in QLD than I am here - I have to drive for 20 -25 minutes to my nearest but that's no problem. If ever I do move States, QLD would be top of my list - I love it over there - but then I love Darwin too!!

I'm going to try to fit my bike in the back of my car today - if it fits I will be laughing as then I can take it to the beach with me and work my way down the cycle paths.

What have you got lined up, as the week draws to a close?? Are you travelling OK?

Hi Nell,

Yes Perth is a bit of problem as it is literally so far on the other side of the country. My H's family live down south from Perth but we haven't been there in many many years. I know what you mean by coming home at night it is creepy even with our beloved furry babies waiting.

The pain in your heart will ease as time goes on but it will always come back from time to time and we just have to keep finding the strength to get through those patches.

I am so surprised that as a nurse you are unable to get steady work, I thought nurses were in great demand, are there any permanent nursing jobs you could apply for as well not just agency work, not that I know a lot about the nursing profession.

You also have to try really hard Nell to remove the thoughts of the OW from your head, you can't let that person drag you down you are a far better person with star qualities and they are not worth sacrificing your inner happiness for.

Take your time when you go out enjoy and savour your time in the fresh air. I hope your friend can meet you for lunch that will be good for your spirit. Life is full of uncertainties for everyone everyday, so don't worry about what you can't change or control just worry about what you can change that is all that matters at the moment.

Will pop back in later.

(((Nell)))

Oz

Let's all move to Qld, warmer there than down where I am at the moment 8 degrees, freezing as.

Thanks (((Oz)))

As for jobs, I am a nurse but not in the traditional hospital role any more. I have specialised over the years and now basically do OHS or Rehab/Injury Management and unless you want to do FIFO (which I don't and can't due to the babies), then everything else is all taken and it's like waiting to fill dead mens shoes. There's just nothing - literally. The frustration is awful and it compounds the other problems right now.

I know that everything you say is right aboutnot being dragged down but I just can't seem to get off the starting blocks. Maybe I need to text H this morning afterall - if I know when he is coming down, that will give me something to look forward to. I know that I should be breaking that thought pattern and start heading toward detachment but I just can't do it - and what is more, I don't even know that I want to do it. It's like letting go and admitting that I have lost. That's a scary thought when I am so very much on my own - he is my only safety net and it's bad enough that there is a gaping hole in that, never mind to have him totally gone. That is what is so different in my sitch than for most others who post here - most have family or close friends ... it's heinous that I am forced to live like this. It's the cruelest blow of all.

Talk later ..

OK - so have email H at work (bad me, said that I wasn't going to bother him at work) but no reply an hour later - not that unusual these days.

Went to have my shower and then pulled out the hairdryer - smaaaaaash .... my lovely (almost full) bottle of Armani perfume that H bought me hit the deck and ran all over the floor of the bathroom. I was hoping that would be the door opening on the tears but no, I just swallowed the pain - uttering expletives - but now I am hurting.

I realised that H will probably never buy me perfume again and that may be how it all ends ... down the drain - and evaporating fast. Just can't save any of it....

....and now the second major disaster of the day, my car won't start

Just undone all the good work in holding out and, in panic, phoned H and left a message to call me back as I need his help - uuurrrggggghhhhh - why did I do that but what else can I do?? Can't exactly phone anyone else to come help me.

So, for all the good plans of off out today, now I am stuck - completely.

Mad as h*ll.

H just called! He's not a happy bunny but has offered (begrudgingly) to come have a look at the car this evening ... should I let him? I have an interview in the morning and need the car. H was getting fractious on the phone so I thanked him for the offer and said that I would call him back later. I didn't handle it very well and was trying not to react but through my panic, I really screwed up.

His words were angry and basically 'whatever... you decide' - it felt like he was ready to hang up on me.

What should I do?? I can't afford to call a mechanic ... so I think that I am going to have to agree. He didn't mention that he had plans to come down this week anyhow ...

Oh Nell, you poor love, wish I was there to help and give you a hug.

Such a shame he is not being nice to you when you are clearly in need of assistance with the car.

Others may disagree with me, but if you can't afford a mechanic or don't have roadside assist then you don't have much choice but to enlist his help.

Don't call back yet, you need to calm down and gather your thoughts first, so when you do talk to him you are not upset or agitated. Go make a cup of tea or coffee and just sit and calm a bit first.

I will be around, I am at my computer all day here, so I keep checking in, so will watch for your posts.

Oz

Thanks (((Oz)))

I didn't call straight back. I left it a (short) while and went to look at the car manual so that I had some information for him. He told me to go look at some other stuff which I did and then he called me back. He said it sounds like the battery.

Giving me my options (which are few) he again said that he would come down and have a look for me (he's a great mechanic) but couldn't guarantee anything. I told him that I have an interview in the morning and I need the car, which is true. He said that I was being difficult in saying whether or not I wanted him to come down but I felt like he really didn't want to and told him so. He groaned at me and said that he wouldn't offer again, so I graciously accepted.

He said that he would be down around 6pm and so I offered to make him dinner - he paused and then refused.

I just felt panic when speaking with him - it's like talking to a stranger and I feel uncomfortable, especially when he is not so nice to me by reply. He was lovely last time I saw him and now he seems to have slipped back again ... of course, I am sure that he is being 'coached' to act this way. I don't know how it's going to go tonight. I did mention that he was going to come down this week anyway so this kind of brings it forward. I also (foolishly) asked why he had not replied to my email asking him when he was likely to come down and he said that he was still thinking about it ... what's to think about? Either you are coming or not??? I think that I get in a knot too, knowing that this is my opportunity to use all of my techniques but then I blow it when I have the chance - what's that all about?

So, I have to go do something now about my pig-like looks today. Despite having pampered already this morning, my hair is dull and lifeless, my face full of spots - sunken eyes and looking every inch the wreck that I do not want him to see. Any suggestions??

Instead of looking forward to seeing him now, I'm dreading it ... I have lost control, look like a freak and am throwing myself on his mercy - not very attractive for a DB'er.

First off Nell, you really have to try and control and distance yourself from it.

He will be like a stranger to you, they all are even mine, yes it is uncomfortable talking to them and yes he will be lovely one minute and horrible the next. He may very well be getting coached or it just the aliens in his head. You will never predict his behaviour and you won't understand it,that is why you have to stop yourself from getting emotional over it and forgeting the rules of DBing.

You have to start looking after yourself sweetie, I know the first time H left me in June, I couldn't move off the couch to go to work, I didn't go for a whole week. I didn't eat, I didn't sleep, I drank too much wine and ate way too much chocolate, then I realised that I was only hurting myself not my H. I now make sure I have a healthy breakfast and lunch (yes you will have to force feed yourself to begin with, but DO IT), I eat dinner depending on the time I get home from gym so dinner is up and down.

You have some time, so go and redo your hair, put on a nice outfit, put your makeup on, perfume and have a meal ready even if it is only for yourself, make sure he sees you are pulled together and the house smells good from cooking. Don't let him think for one second that he is getting to you.

Now off you go Nell and let me know how you go.

I hear you - and know that you are right. I'm going to start this day over - it's been a disaster since I got up this morning. I'm going to do as you say.

I think that overall, I am just so disappointed that I had been working reasonably well, only to have to go crawling to him now that the chips are down. It's taken away my confidence. The car doing this is so annoying too -I could expect it if it was an old bomb but it's not! I just hope that it doesn't do, as could be predicted, and start first time he turns it over!!

I'm also disappointed as I have been unable to get to the post office to send off my friends birthday present AND I really wanted to go get those plants to put in today. It's all just a smack in the face really. Broke H's favourite glass last night (will broach that with him later but I doubt he cares any more) and then the perfume this morning has about pushed me clean over the edge. It's always the 'small' things, isn't it?

Just put the straighteners through my hair and still look like a pig - only now one that's been pulled backward through a hedge, so I'm starting over - from scratch - including putting a dye on!!

Darn cars are notorious for doing that. Don't mention that his glass has been broken, not really worth it, as the saying goes "don't sweat the small stuff".

Just remember that today can't get any worse and tomorrow will be better.

Make sure to start smiling now so by the time H arrives it won't be so hard.

Will listen to your good advice - and put a facepack on too!

My cat is fighting for desk space here and putting her nose in my face to kiss her! Thank goodness for our 'creature' comforts, eh?

What are you up to today?? More packing or something nice for (((Oz))).

Just at work, nothing exciting. Don't talk about packing, the house is no further packed than last Saturday. S says don't worry, it'll happen. Think it will be an all nighter Thursday night packing.

Wish that I could come and help you - doesn't seem right when I have all this lonely time on my hands and you could do with a spare pair!

Just got the ironing out ... that should kill an hour :o)

I'll send my ironing over to you as well if you like, I so hate the ironing.

It's a thankless task but I always feel better when it's done! Just been paying some bills and the third thing to break the mould has just occurred! My interview for tomorrow has been postponed.

Now, I have once again probably taken the wrong action but as H doesn't believe a word that I say lately, I forwarded the advisory email from said interviewer to him. I also gave him the option of changing the evening for him to come down if tonight was not so convenient, explaining that the urgency is off regarding the car. He has not yet responded and I shall not follow it up. (I feared that he would just think that I had made up the story of the interview to get him to visit) Mrs. Paranoia is here again!

OK - off to get this ironing done, the face pack and hair (for me anyhow) and then check in again before he is due to arrive! Will need a pep talk, I'm sure. Keep calm, keep calm - geez, why do we get like this??

Ok Nell. I know meditation has been difficult in the past but now i think you need to tell yourself, "take time to breathe" and then slowly inhale and exhale a few times. Deep breathing will definitely help you to calm down a little. Don't beat up on yourself about the convo with H. You are coming from a position of anxiety and that has a significant effect on your response to H. He will feed off your anxiety and that makes for greater problems. Try to plan your responses ahead before you see him just to make them a little less emotive.

(((((Nell)))))

PS I like that you told him that the car was no longer such an urgency. That gives you greater credibility.

Nell, an important rule is to post any thoughts you have on answering emails etc before you do it, even if it takes a while to get an answer from someone. That way you won't be so emotional once you do send a reply and as Cas said he is feeding of your anxiety and we can't have that happen.

I don't do anything before I run it past my friends here. This has put me in greater control of myself and the situation. I am sure others would agree.

Thanks (((Cas))) - especially to know that, at last, I have done something that's right ... like tell H that the car is less urgent! He has still not responded to that email, which I find remarkable as his work is at his computer all day (save maybe that he could be at a meeting) but now my head and heart are fighting - his treating me so badly makes my head say *la, la, la - expletives of the unrepeatable kind* whilst my heart screams not to give up and continues to love unconditionally. What's a girl supposed to do?? I'm so torn and feel that I should tell him to take a running jump ... but ... well, you know how it goes.

OK - I hear you - I shall try my very best to take that advice and do just so from now on. If it ain't tried out here first, it don't get done. So, can you all come around tonight please -about 6pm should do it!!

OK - I'm ready. Make up - au natrelle and blemishes covered, courtesy of Clinique, may God Bless 'em; Hair - clean, dyed and no grey showing - straightened perfectly; Clothes - new jeans and a shirt neither of us have seen in ages ... maybe heeled boots just before he arrives??

Thinking that a cup of tea in the sunshine now, with DR in hand, will be good preparation before he arrives. May get some firming up on techniques and will relax and calm me ... 3 hrs 10 mins and counting ... though I shouldn't.

Breath ... breath... don't react. OK - got it. Don't let him feed off my anxiety ... be business like but polite and friendly ... smile - am I ready???

Can't help thinking, looking in the mirror, that I still look 10 years older than when he left 2 months ago ... will have to use personality to make up for that and surely he will realise what a toll this has all taken on me, despite that I am supposed to be GAL'ing!

Any last minute pearls of wisdom or advice on script ... how the evening should go? Should I compliment him on his appearance (last time I saw him I told him he looked bl**dy awful!) or just take things very low key ...? Yes, guessing that's the best.

Glad you are ready to roll Nell, just make sure you hide the DR book (I am still waiting on my copy to arrive). High heels for sure, gives that sexy lean look.

Definitely relax. I wouldn't compliment him (just my take on the matter), keep things low key, DON'T MENTION your R or anything to do with it.

SMILE SMILE SMILE.

Let's know how you go.

((((Nell)))

Will do Oz - thanks for advice re heels! May shock him a bit as its literally years since I have worn them! As you know, these are my treat to myself from last week

A treat for next week may be DB - I only have DR and it's a library copy but they don't have DB - is it worth getting after all the advice that is so freely available here??

I couldn't get either in the library. Found one copy of DB at Borders bookstore. Had to order DR through here. I am hoping it arrives before the weekend.

Most people have told me that DR is the better one particularly when dealing with an MLCer because I believe it has a section on it in there but I got the DB one because I just wanted to be armed with every bit of advice and tool that I could get my hands on. Like every book there is stuff in it that you will use and stuff you won't. I was at the beginning when I bought DB and was desperate for anything that gave me hope.

I read both and as Oz said DR is the preferred. I got DB at the library and then got my own copy of DR. read 5 LL as well, you could probably get that at the library.

Sending you all the best for this evening; may you smile plenty, be calm, not pursue and be gracious (eventhough we now your heart will be racing!)

Take it easy Nell

Thanks both. Gloves are off ... well no, boots are on and looking good, if I may say so myself - just got to practise walking in them now - and quickly - just two hours to go (if he's not late)!!!!

I flicked him a quick email in response to one of his earlier and just said that our puss was missing - I couldn't find her and was frantic - she had been gone for 4 hours. It took him a while to respond (this was actually quite reassuring that he IS WORKING as he would have replied immediately for anything to do with the little people) and he said "she'll be back - tomming time again, I expect" - to which I had to find all my strength to say "yes, there's a lot of it about" - Gee, I should have majored in sarcasm as it comes to me so much easier than DB'ing!!

OK - so I hear that DR is the best - perhaps I shall stick with that then and not waste money that's too precious a resource right now (sorry to keep on about that but it is one of my prime focus spots - especially when previously $ has flowed generously in this home)!

So, I've just read the MLC section again and I feel better - wish that I had read it again yesterday when I was feeling so shaky. It's all true. As Michelle points out:

Every time you fix something, they find something else to moan about - you are a moving target for them; they say that they have never loved you; they re-write all of your history so that it's a bad story; they try to re-invent themselves by dying their hair, going to the gym, taking an OW - if only they put as much effort into making the changes INSIDE themselves. True - so damned true!!

They become scared of getting old, seeing the man in the mirror who is not recognisable, he feels resentful of putting the food on the table, buying brand named clothes for kids, he becomes depressed - and its all YOUR fault. Detaching, for us ladies, is the only way to go. He has to struggle through it until he sees the fog clearing. Meanwhile, we have to sit and love our H's from a distance. That's the message ladeez. Love them - from a distance.

Thanks for your support tonight - I will be feeling you with me all the time that H is here. Please continue to send positive vibes and I will post, when he's gone!! Oh, by the way, puss was here in her little Princess Palace all the while - she hadn't even moved but I just couldn't find her, despite all my calling! Cats - so determined - they would be exceptional DB'ers!.

Thanks Cas - yes, I have 5 LL here - not getting on with it very well but will give it another go over the weekend.

More convinced than ever now Oz, that H is in MLC - it's kind of reassuring ...

No use buying DB if you have DR. It's like the new advanced model.
If the meeting is not done yet (time zones get me confused) good luck tonight.
K

Nell, I remember now that you struggled with 5 LL. i loved it and it made so much sense to me. Nevermind, put it away and maybe try it a couple of months down the track

Thanks Kalni - I appreciate your advice - and that you dropped by!! Nice to know there's so much support here

BTW - 16.30hrs here in Western Australia

OK - will do!!

It's nearly time Nell, remember to keep doing your breathing so you are calm when he arrives.

Best of luck, let us know how you go. Will be thinking of you.

(((Nell)))

Thinking of you Nell. Deep breathes, keep those reactions in check and remember you are FABULOUS!

Thank you (((*sisters*))) - I just wish that you were waiting around the corner and were there to pick me up later because a big part of me sees this backfiring badly!

I am excited for H's arrival but, as I was unpacking the dishwasher, I also reminded myself that I should have no expectations - afterall, he's purely coming to help start the car! Anything else will be a bonus but I do consider that this is the first time that I have put a bit of effort in on my appearance front - not too much but just subtle ...

I also think that, despite his protestations earlier, he must still care to to even be coming to help out .... some WAH's would just say "your on your own" I guess?

OK - breathing, breathing, calm, calm. (Boots are killing me but I can take the pain)!

In Helen Reddy's words "I am strong, I am invincible, I am WOMAN"!!!!!!!!!!

Your goal is small. To create a doubt or two, to leave a questionmark over his head, to make this a positive interaction... Nothing else. Dont expect too much but trust me, all you need is a little...
xxx
K

Oh Kalni - now you have me thinking ... what could I possibly say/do to give that doubt to him when he seems not to want to know anything about me right now?? Any thoughts ... ??

Or is what you are saying that what I have already done, in terms of my appearance this evening, the small goal which just makes him wonder why ... ?

Nothing you can say at the moment. Your 'do' is to be calm, collected and try and make this as positive as possible. Small, tiny baby steps... and appearance is a great step.

So, how did it go, Nell?

Oh fellow DB'ers ... apologies in advance - this is going to be a biggie but such a goodie!!

I'm so upbeat and over the moon!! The visit didn't last that long - I got my usual two and a half hours (weird that it's always two and a half hours) but it was quality DB stuff!!!

For the first time, H arrived early - forty minutes early! He got right in to sorting the car - which took him just a few minutes. I felt like a fraudster as he didn't find anything wrong but he knew that it was not a lame excuse as it didn't start for him either, intially. We went for a test drive and I asked that we call by a house that my new friends daughter is building - not far from ours. H drove passed and then reversed back, looked the house over and asked why I wanted to see it. I explained that I had been invited there for Christmas, but didn't tell him who's house it was! He didn't seem to like that and so drove on.

When we got home he said that he needed some things, which I let him take. He wanted 3 garden chairs - odd number. He explained one to sit on, one to put his feet on and one for a 'table' - I almost said "one for you , one for bimbo and one for her D" but I resisted, being the good DB'er that I have become today!!

We talked about stuff in general and he said that he had two days planned down south .. I didn't even ask. I just said that I hoped the weather would be nice for him. I was so upbeat, smily and attentive to his conversation. It seemed to warm him and I asked if I could fix him some dinner. He said that had already eaten but his appetite is still not right - stress and stuff. I called him on that and asked why he still felt that way after 3 months. He said that things weren't right but that I would not want to discuss it so I left it there.

Couldn't decipher whether or not H was with OW at weekend - he told me where he had been but didn't say if he was on his own or not. I joked with him that I was still waiting on my invite to his unit for coffee and he said that yes, I would be waiting a long time for that one! I asked him if he was happy (it felt appropriate) and he said that yes he kind of was but that he had definitely made the right choice in leaving ... I said that I was happy for him and smiled my best but least sarcastic smile

He needed something else from the garage and so took the opportunity to show me how to work the new mower! We talked a bit about financials and then it was time to go. He went to the bathroom and, as I was unable to go out and post his Fathers Day card today (yes, I decided that I woul send it!) I slipped it in to a box that he was taking - along with a packet of Beef Hula Hoops that he loves so much! I put the porch lights on and I prepared for a good parting. He came back and said "would you like to try the car again before I go" and something told me that it was a delay tactic on his behalf ... though I don't know.

He seemed to want to go but not ... anyhow, we chatted a bit by the door and he said that I should go in. I said that I was fine and I would like to see him off so he just loafed about and then said that he would see me next time. I stayed out by the door and waved as he drove away. I smiled the whole time - though if he could see me in the dark, I'm not sure!

Before he left, he asked me if I could forward an email that I had sent and that he wanted to reply to but has lost it after only reading half of it. I said that I would send it and I also wanted him to send me a copy of "The Script" as I want to take it to my counselling session on Monday. Now, baby steps or not (as I consider this evening to have been), I am doing a big 180 here. Ordinarily, I would have come to my computer and sent that email to him immediately. Now I am thinking, he gets the email but only when I get mine!

On emails - he also said before he left - "we have email" and I asked what that meant. He said that it was our way to talk if we wanted to and so I couldn't resist but tell him that he rarely responds - with a lift and a laugh in my voice! He said that he only ignores stuff that doesn't warrant a response - he's not like me and writes reams!! I chuckled and said "OK then I will email when I have a question or something interesting to say"!

I don't think that the boots went un-noticed - he didn't comment but there was certainly 'a look'. I also made a thing of pulling them off when we got in the house .. I had done my prancing!

He did some jobs in regard the pool and spa and then asked if I would like the washing line to be put back up - he had taken it down for some reason a while back. I thanked him for doing all the jobs and told him that I appreciated him having done the things that I had not gotten around to.

So, that was about it. I felt no need to pursue or badger him in to answers tonight and I felt hapy to let him go on his elastic band. I felt the support and encouragement from every one here and I knew that you were all flies on the wall and that made me smile too!! All my coaching - and reading bits of DB again before he arrived, kept me calm and ensured that I had a brilliant visit with H. There was no offer of a hug tonight and I didn't make comment .. I wonder if he was thinking about it though - he seemed to be for a split second.

So, now I just have to wait until next time but again, I did well and didn't ask when the next time would be! I know that this is a good win and I'm sure that I shall come crashing soon enough but for now, I am going to have a good sleep tonight and know that I have done the best job that I can of upholding the DB techniques in order to get at least one baby step chalk mark up on my calendar!

Thank you all for your support as always but particularly those who helped me through today - you know who you are and I am forever in your debt

Great job, Nell!! Excellent work. The bonuses are not only did you get your car fixed and those other jobs, but you had a pleasant visit, certainly gave H something to think about and H left from the visit without the usual tension and disharmony. And...the peaceful visit now leaves you sleeping peacefully tonight. You'll find each subsequent visit that little bit easier. You must be feeling awesome!

Cas

Yay! Well done. What fantastic DBing especially for a first try. Top of the class I reckon

and well done for not rising to some of his comments, it would have been easy to do.

Now let him be as much as you can for a while. Let him ponder that one...

Fantastic work Nell, I am so proud of you. He will definitely now be wondering, so keep it up your have caught on really well to the techniques.

Oh Nell, I am sooooo very proud of you.....

You DB'd perfectly......"Girl you can do it!!!!!" You Did!!!!!!

I am only sorry that I have not been here for you for a few days. I did read through the latest several times and then would run out of time to chime in on my .02 cents.

Very happy that you took my advice and didn't shut the door in his face when he parted. I am happy that you left the light on and waved and smiled til he was out of sight. That is a very smart move. H surely noticed and it made him feel cared about.

The boots.....very good move. Sexy and Smart!!!

Dinner offer.....very good move. It's not his answer, it's the offer, remember that!!!

Your H reminding you to communicate with him (and vice-versa) even if it's via email......very good.

Your H caring to follow through with a few helps around the house......very good.

I see so many positives in your visit. I would say you could put one baby step on the board.

NOW....He did linger because it was hard for him to leave, I would say he had second thoughts about leaving.

Will post more later....I have to go for a bit. I have more to say.

Way to go, girlfriend.....

Sanderika

Oh THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU all you lovely ladeez!!!!! I am so rapt to wake up to your messages. I slept really well (of course) but woke up and it all came drifting back ... it almost felt worse that, because we had a good evening, I subconciously expected H to be lying beside me. The realisation that he was not kicked me in the solar plexus and then some of his comments started to play on my mind - like the fact that he has a two day holiday booked when he is pushing me for every last cent that I don't have and I am saving as much on bills as I can - like not having the heating on even, in this cold weather. If only he knew the sacrifices that I am making - despite he never sees them. It chews me up and, once again, I felt totally spat out. I got out of bed quickly to dispel such thoughts from lingering. I also brought up the STOP sign very quickly in my mind.

Still, it has not dampened my enthusiasm too much and with your positive encouragements I now know that what I did was right ... it's hard to know when it's your first stab at things - after the torturous meetings that we have had. I think that I get it now and it will be a little more intuitive the next time we meet ...

... but when will that be?? I certainly made a point of not asking him and now that I am all geared up to be fully self sufficient in regard tasks around the house, I don't see that he has any need to come to see me again and I certainly don't feel that I have any 'excuses' at this time.

It was lovely to watch him play with the cats and I did behave very badly (although some may say provocatively) on two occasions during the evening - 1) I touched the back of his neck with my car key (sexy fashion, you understand!) and said how neatly the barber had shaved his neck after his recent hair cut and 2) when we were test driving the car, I lightly touched his thigh as I spoke about something - it kind of felt relevant at the time! He didn't flinch on either occasion.

In fact, after he left, I worried about him. If things were OK with OW, surely he would be eating properly and not stressing so much. Something is not right there and I don't know what the bottom line is ... it seems that the A is still on-going but he tells me nothing (didn't even manage to find out if the tramp was over at the weekend but I think so) and yet he seems to be quite depressed and low-key to his normal self. Well, his problem, eh? I can do nothing about it but sit and wait to pick up the pieces when it fails ... which I hope will soon!

I liked that he asked me if I had been out cycling - my helmet and gloves were on the kitchen bench - strategically placed, you understand! I fibbed and said that I had been down the cycle path - well, I had, in my mind!! He also kept on bringing up his parents and them asking after me ... even as he left, he said that there was something else that they wanted him to tell me but he couldn't remember.

Positive gains from last night were:

1) H did not mention the mortgage or money for bills, despite me presenting him with the rates bill - no mention of me paying
2) We talked without fighting and the parting was amicable
3) I DB'ed my little a$$ off!
4) H was responsive and 'warmed' to me as the evening progressed
5) H asked questions - few, but they were there
6) H did 'domestic' tasks - including change a light bulb which failed, just as he walked through the door!

The negatives were:

1) H alluded to the fact that OW is still around
2) Evidently making plans not to share with me - keep thinking he is planning to 'disappear' from my life totally
3) H happy that he has made the right choice by having left and is marching forward to his own future - again, without me
4) Didn't stay longer than his 'set' 2.5hrs
5) No agreed date for return visit - feel like he is going dark and may even be doing subconcious 180's of his own
6) Took more 'stuff' away from our home to furnish his new life - feels kind of permanent that he is doing that

OK - 'to do list' for me over the weekend is:

1) Get out on that bike - even if it's a short ride!
2) See if bike fits in boot of car - H reckons it will
3) Mow front and back lawns

Short term goals are:

1) Continue 180's as last night
2) Get library book on MLC and learn more about the alien 'illness'
3) Remain self-sufficient in domestic situation

It's going to be another lonely time. My new friend's H is back home for the next two weeks and so probably no contact with her -she sees so little of him due to his work commitments and I am keen to stay away - we all know how precious each moment is with H and I wouldn't want to share any of that time, so why would she?!!

Well, today (now the car is back!) I am going to go replace those plants and post my friends present ...

Again, THANK YOU all for taking the time to reply. Best (((hugs))) to everyone.

Hi Nell.

Try to focus more on the positives from the night and not the negatives. Don't worry about your next contact with H, you have left an impression that he will no doubt be thinking about. Give him time, I'm sure he will make first contact.

You will be more settled now that you know the techniques work and you have started to get a feel for how to handle things.

Good Work again, now have a great day doing your bits and pieces. Keep smiling.

(((Nell)))

Thanks Oz - you are right. Now that I can see the techniques having worked a bit of their magic for me, I am more encouraged.

Unfortunately, H and I forgot to summarise on some stuff that I needed for the car last evening (evidently carried away with other stuff) and so I have emailed him this morning just to ask what I needed to get. WOW - instead of the one liner that I normally get, this was a paragraph!!!!!! Striiiiiiiike Two!

H was full of an explanation and even told me where to go to get said items. He said "don't let them tell you that you need X or Y as you won't get the benefit and it will cost you three times as much" ... not even saying it will cost 'me' or 'us' that amount!! He seems to have backed off the money thing at the moment, is what I am trying to say.

Oh, and that said, last night I had some more US words given to me, like about the rates - he said "WE get charged extra for having a pool" and "WE can look at that nearer the time" ... which I also saw as a good thing!

Anyhow, after his paragraph, I wrote back and thanked him for his advice and wished him a productive day at work and one that brings at least one smile - I said that I was sad to see him so 'flat' last night and left it at that. Just signed off saying 'talk soon ...'

Do you think that was OK - friendly and validating yet backing off totally??

Huh! How to burst someones bubble - he has just replied "I just had a bad day yesterday - full of the joys of spring today" ... I have not replied but you can just imagine what I am thinking .... yeah, the good old paranoia again

I MUST BELIEVE; I MUST BELIEVE; I MUST BELIEVE ....

Just ignore his last email. That is just what they do, remember only take on the positive things, file the negative in the recycle bin don't be tempted to bite back.

Good advice. I'm afraid that I did another backslide though. Went to get the consumables for the car and was totally overwhelmed - I rang him. He answered the phone all bright and breezy then sounded 'ordinary' when he heard my voice. He said that his phone hadn't recognised my number, which is odd as it normally does. I giggled and said that he was obviously expecting someone important to ring as he had his 'telephone voice' on!

He kept me on the phone whilst he checked some info on the net and I almost thought that he was going to chat a little while as he umm'ed and ah'ed a little. I just said "OK, well thanks for the info. I shan't stop you at work and we can talk later" ... I hung up as I just heard him say "OK, bye then".

I came home, put the fluids in the car, planted the two replacement plants and now I am sitting here with a huge bowl of salad! It was so tempting to email him and say that I had completed the tasks and now the car should be fine but I deleted the words that I typed and told myself "step away from the email" - hence I jumped straight on to the forum to hang out with my pals here!

I felt like I had broken the back of the day but now I just see the hours stretching out before me again. This time yesterday, I was all excited and practising my lines for the evening. Who knows when I shall get to do that again?

I also see the nights drawing out again and the spring is on it's way. It usually warms my soul but now it makes me shudder. Going in to another season without H here and knowing that he will have moved on so much more without me. I can't bear that he is having a 'secret life' and won't let me know what is going on in his world but it's all part of the process and I know that I just have to swallow it and toughen up like the sparkly little Princess that I once was

Hi Nell, I don't think you backslid too much, so I wouldn't worry.

Try not to dwell on the hours ahead, I know it is easier said than done, or what H is doing or whether he has moved on or not etc. You have to develop Nell's own world and the new Nell. that's all you should be thinking of now YOU.

OK - thanks for the reassurance that my backslide wasn't so awful. Infact, last night H did agree that if I had questions, I was able to ask and so I guess that made me feel better and why it was so easy to ring him.

I've just emailed him a bill that's overdue by a week ... I haven't even seen the original (Water Bill) and I have asked that we have a discussion on the financial stuff ... I can't have things overdue, it worries me to death. He's not getting the bills obviously but its likely that the original arrived when I was in the UK - he has just forgotten about it now that he has moved out. He has to take these things seriously but here's the rub:

What happens when he reiterates that I am living here so I have to pay my share of the bills - I know that I am going to want to say "if you can afford a holiday with OW, then you should be more respectful to your PRIMARY woman and take care of your marital responsibilities - i.e. the bills"

I'm trying to figure a good way of saying that but I really do want to get the point across. He's left me in a position where I am rationing everything to my position 3 months ago and yet he feels it OK to go and have holidays, plus flights interstate every few weeks to see the tramp?? It's why I bought the two plants today - all $26 worth!!!!

Have knocked myself out this arvo ... got to grips with the new petrol mower that I had a lesson on, from H, last evening. I am so resentful that he would let me do this - it's a big task and the least I would have expected was that he would not stand by and let me do such heavy manual tasks ... our block is large and I used to watch him struggle to complete the lawns. Doesn't say much about his respect for me, does it? Still, tackling it bit by bit, I have done the back gardens so the front and sides will get it tomorrow.

I have also moved the patio furniture around and put the garden vac all around the alfresco so that it's all squeaky clean and new looking, once again. Moving the outdoor furniture is far more beneficial the new way around - I can go out and read to my hearts content now but still leave old puss on 'his' favourite piece of furniture, undisturbed!

I look back on all the jobs that I have been doing since H left and I almost felt drawn to write to him and let him know how much I appreciate what he has done for me in years gone by. I had no idea how much he was really doing and how much I took for granted that he would carry on doing. I guess he's finding things the other way around now that he has to do washing, ironing etc ... Mind you, I would rather his tasks - my new stuff is physically challenging but should keep my weight on track - a downward trend!

Well, that's another day almost over - it's really sad that I am living like this and counting down to ..... to what exactly? There's nothing out there for me to look forward to, other than the day H says that he's coming home. I still feel so stuck despite all the advice to GAL but it's just not so easy done as said, with my circumstances as they are. It's hard not to sit and wallow, feeling self-pity and abject misery but that really is kind of where I am at.

Next issue I am dealing with is out impending Wedding Anniversary in September. It will be a Friday and I am dreading that H goes interstate ... it would be so much nicer if he could find it in him to meet up with me! Any ideas of how I could weave him a bit toward that thought?

H ruined my birthday as was with OW for weekend and I can't bear the same happening again - on our Special Day.

Do I send him a card/text/email on the day, or ignore it as a 180, as I am sure will be the advice??

You've got it right. As long as he's with the OW, don't acknowledge the day. Do you really want him to open a gift you gave him at the OW's place?

Maybe go out that night and do something special for yourself. Go and pamper yourself with a massage, a night on the town, a nice dinner. Just something. And do it with a friend. You're going to need some support.

Just a suggestion.

Thanks Stuck - appreciate you dropping by.

My circumstance is a little difficult and not like others, I'm afraid. Currently I am totally reliant upon H for my finances and, as we are living in a 'foreign' country, I have yet to make any new friends who are able to get out and about with me! I am a sad-sack I know but it's the reality of my right here and now.
I am doing my best to address both areas - finding work and friends but it doesn't happen over night, as you will appreciate.

I hear you on the card/present thing but then knowing him, he wouldn't open anything if he was not on his own. I won't buy him a gift, definitely (he ignored my July birthday totally) but we have always been so protective of our Anniversary and have always made it such a great day.

Maybe a lone walk on the beach is what I shall end up with ... hopefully, I could meet a real spunk and wouldn't that be a great 180?!! (Bravado speaking of course, I'm nowhere near ready for that). That's what I don't understand about WAS's - how could they even THINK about touching someone else, never mind having a PA?? Yeuck, the thought revolts me.

I know how you feel. My W had an A with her boss. 25 years older than her. Disgusting.

What country are you in? No matter where you are, there are always places where you can volunteer your time. Sometimes the best healing is to give your talents to someone who appreciates it. Rather than concentrating your efforts and resources on your H who won't appreciate it, think about giving you time to a place in need, or donate the money you were going to give as a gift, to a charity.

Look on meetup.com for free things to do. There are alot of things that don't require money. Think of it this way. No matter how bad off you think you are, there's always someone worse off.

Help them and you will fill the void you feel missing in you right now.

I hear you - and I feel your pain and bitterness. I'm 'stuck' in that mode too. It's a travesty of the worst kind.

I'm in Australia and we are very isolated from what you may think goes on over here! It's not far off being a one-horse town in the country region where I am living and whilst this was good when H was around, now it is not so.

Thanks for the website - I shall have a look and see if there are any options there for me.

Have you been DB'ing with your W ... ?

Yes I have. I've been at this for over a year after she gave me the ILYBNILWY speech and that she wanted to pursue her M boss. Crazy times lay ahead and it took me a long time to figure out a plan of action.

When I look at how things were last year compared to this year, they are 100 times better. Same time last year, she moved out of the house and we were sharing our kids 50/50. Today she's home, we're sleeping in the same bed, no intimacy, but she's joking and talking compared to last year when she was nasty, name-calling, "afraid" of me, etc.

It does take the patience of a saint to do what we all do. The thing is to keep moving. Too many people on these boards become "stuck" in their situation and end up ending their marriage even though it was their spouses who wanted it.

Stay positive and live for yourself. You can't control your H, you can only control you. So make yourself happy. You were a content individual before you met him. What did you like to do before that may have gotten lost over the course of the M? What was your passion.

He's not around, so it's a great time to rekindle the love of the other things you had going for you. Build the strength in yourself and you'll find that you don't need him.

Stay strong.

You've had another productive day, Nell. Well done! Bet it's helped your positivity!

Cas

Thanks Cas - I wish that I could tell you that I am positive but I've hit the skids again tonight. Normally I am OK in the evenings but after having had such a time last evening, I am struggling badly tonight.

Can't stop thinking that H saw me in positive mode and, as he told me that he was happy and had made the right choice in leaving me, his words just keep on reverberating in my mind. I don't know whether I should do a deliberate backslide here and tell him that I don't want any of this, I can see where our M was failing and I know how to put it right ...

He kept on telling me that he would need something monumental to change his mind and I keep thinking of what that could be. Of course, in typical MLC mode, he also said that he didn't believe that there was anything monumental that I would be able to offer and so I continue to see him sliding away from me ... fast. The longer this goes on, the more I keep thinking of how much deeper the tramp is getting her claws in to him and undoubtedly brain washing him... keeping up the negative messages. He said that he would respond to some of my emails this evening and yet again, there's nothing from him.

I am so damned lonely - constantly, which just gives me all the hours in the day to dwell and dwell and dwell on this - there's no let up like work, family, phone calls or any contact for me that would divert my attention. This is my life - 24hrs a day. This board is my only 'family & friends' - what a sad sack life I have.

I worry all the time - especially what if something awful happens to me - what if I had a heart attack and lay dead in the house - no-one would even know! Worse thing about that is that my cats would starve to death and then there would be 3 deaths on his conscience. It might be weeks before he realised that he hasn't heard from me. I have voiced this to him and he just said "don't be so bl**dy stupid, will you" - how belittling is that??

See how low I am sinking?? What am I to do?? (Don't worry, I am NOT suicidal)!!

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don't know whether I should do a deliberate backslide here and tell him that I don't want any of this, I can see where our M was failing and I know how to put it right ...

No, no, no, no, no!

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as he told me that he was happy and had made the right choice in leaving me, his words just keep on reverberating in my mind.

Believe nothing of what you hear...

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Of course, in typical MLC mode, he also said that he didn't believe that there was anything monumental that I would be able to offer and so I continue to see him sliding away from me ... fast.

Stop beating yourself up. He doesn't know what this monumental thing is so how in the world should you.

Personally, I think you should stop sacrificing for this man in terms of not having the heating on etc etc. Don't make yourself miserable, he certainly isn't. I'm not saying go out and spend but he really isn't going to notice a few pence on the heating.

This time is about you not him. You cannot control what he does but you can influence it by your actions. It was your first interaction DBing last night and it went well. You have had a lot of contact since. Give him space to let it all sink in. In all probability you will not see instant results but gradual change.

Nell, you are going to have to find something to do. This is not going to be resolved quickly it could be weeks, probably months maybe years so you need to get a GAL plan. You cannot sit and wait for it to resolve itself as you will spiral like this everyday. STOP SIGNS are needed all over the place.

Is there a local village store you can help out in? A library? A soup kitchen? A knitting group (I love knitting!), a aerobics class, a cat appreciation society

wanna join mine?

Finally, trust the process. You have seen it working already. You are gong to need patience you didn't even know you had. Did you see on my thread that my h is on holiday with ow but letting me know he arrived safe and offering to bring me back stuff. If I focused on the first part I'd go mad, but I don't. It takes practice but you can do it.

JCJ is so right Nell. You have to focus on you and forget about whatever H might be doing with ow. Forget about what he says too.
When somebody tells you they made the right choice and they're happy it sounds to me like they're simply justifying their actions in their own minds. Departing spouses are filled with guilt and need to appease the guilt and make themselves feel more comfortable.
Like JCJ says you cannot go back now. You looked strong and happy the other night. H will be questioning as that's certainly not what he expected. Don't fall into the trap of begging him to come back because you can fix things. Let him see you as strong and independent. I look back now and consider my behaviour at the beginning and I can see exactly why my H behaviour would have convinced H he was right in leaving. You have the advice of others here, take it and use it wisely so you don't have to be as pathetic as I once was!

Choose a new task for today. Try to do something in town. JCJ has some excellent suggestions.

I'll check in later as I'm cleaning and grocery shopping today ready for a busy weekend.

Take Care

Cas

JCJ - I absolutely know that you, like everyone else, is right about this but I also know that I would be coping so much better if I had friends and family around me. I don't want to sound totally pathetic or have people feel sorry for me but to be in a country with no-one is like nothing you can imagine.

I have also wondered if H is really in MLC - we all think so from my posts here but he is adamant that he is not. I guess that could be considered similar to an alcoholic denying that they have problems too! (H is NOT an alcoholic)! Therefore, I must believe nothing of what he tells me and only half of what he does.

I hear you on the heating thing .. trouble is, he's started ignoring the bills now and I had to pay the water bill this morning, which reduces my miniscule nest egg to even less. I just can't do this and I feel that he is trying to 180 me by putting my back against the wall. If the utilities get cut off and the mortgage is not paid, I will be evicted. I can't really believe that he would do that but it is in my mind that this is now his new game.

Despite him telling me that we have our email to communicate (why would he stoop to just that when we were having regular phone calls until recently) he is just not answering when I email him to advise that a bill has arrived and is due. I just don't seem to be getting through to him, though when he is here and I say this, he seems rational and states that he will reply. Uurgh, it is so frustrating. He is certainly playing a blinder and he knows which buttons to push. He has borrowed money from his parents to fund his secondary lifestyle but I don't think that they would be any too impressed knowing that he is using that for holidays and entertaining whilst he is not paying our bills and leaving me so neglected.

I know that I have to find something to occupy me but we really do live in the backwaters of society and there is very little here other than a burger outlet, garage and bottle shop. That's it! I would love to join your cat appreciation society, yes please! I looked at doing some voluntary work but it's quite a way away and I really don't know that I could hold myself together to be out there in the public eye right now. I have to do something though ... will keep thinking and researching.

I didn't see your thread - I seem to have lost it somewhere but will go looking again. I was trying to work out the buddy thing so that I can keep track but it's not that user-friendly, or I am just totally techno-useless! I am really sorry that your H has treated you that way - it's so cruel and heartless, isn't it? You just can't believe that the love that we once had can diminish to such a level.

Hi Cas - how are you doing today??

Reading your post, I can't help but feel sorry for H in lots of ways. I don't see how he can be happy when he is not eating properly, remains stressed and has gone even more grey, in 2 months. I hear you on that he is trying to make himself more comfortable and assuage his guilt. I just think that when he saw me so upbeat the other evening, that would also have served him well in 'knowing' that I was doing fine and he doesn't have to feel that way any more. He saw a really 'together' me and one who only needed a small amount of assistance. Do you really think that he will be questioning? I get the feeling that when he leaves here he can forget about me until the next time that something crops up and we are 'forced' to speak.

I shan't ask him to come home. I have come to far than to slide back and I HAVE TO BELIEVE that this DB'ing works. I just wonder if anyone else feels as I do in that their WAH never will return as they know him all too well and the way that he works. I see his determination that this is his new life - FOREVER - and it kills me.

I am trying to stick with it and I know that there is such good advice coming my way. I am so grateful for all of you who are offering the hand of kindness, friendship and patience, when I sound like an ungrateful and pathetic whiner!

Today was going to be mowing the front and side lawns but it is lashing down with rain - it's dark and gloomy, which is so akin to my mood! Even though I promised myself that duvet day last week, I didn't take it. Perhaps today is the day instead - a reward for all my hard work yesterday! One thing that I shan't be doing is asking H to meet me for coffee this weekend - as I have the past two weekends - and been turned down. If what you are doing doesn't work - stop!

Good luck with the cleaning and grocery shopping and I hope that the weekend is fun, as well as busy!!

EN,

Is there anyway you can move back home? Or get another source of income? Right now you are dangling on his strings and I can guarantee you that if he settles down with the OW, then he's going to leave you out to dry.

Take care of yourself with your own resources. It's scary and it's not what you want, but it's live or die. When it comes to having a roof over your head and water, then you are in danger.

"he also said that he didn't believe that there was anything monumental that I would be able to offer"

Give me a break. You should be saying that HE doesn't have anything to offer you. Do not let him play with your future like that. You have alot to offer. Believe in yourself.

Yeouch! That hurts, even though there could be a lot of truth in what you say Stuck. I would so like to think that H would never do these things to me but he is in alien territory right now afterall.

I won't move back to the UK. There's nothing for me there any longer and I know that my friends are struggling to provide the support that I need. I spent the whole of June putting up with the comments that they thought were right but only made me feel more bitter, twisted and upset - with them as well as H!

I would like to agree and be able to say that he doesn't have anything to offer me but he really does! That's why we are such a good team .. we compliment each others abilities and capabilities - our morals and ethics are a good match - he's just relinquished his over to the aliens ... but I do believe and I will continue to DB until he takes that trip back to planet Marriage and realises that he has a W who has made changes - permanent changes - for herself primarily but for a better marriage as a bonus. If he can't see that would benefit him in happiness and all the things that he says he wants, then that's his choice.

"I would like to agree and be able to say that he doesn't have anything to offer me but he really does! That's why we are such a good team .. we compliment each others abilities and capabilities - our morals and ethics are a good match - he's just relinquished his over to the aliens ... but I do believe and I will continue to DB until he takes that trip back to planet Marriage and realises that he has a W who has made changes - permanent changes - for herself primarily but for a better marriage as a bonus. If he can't see that would benefit him in happiness and all the things that he says he wants, then that's his choice."

The problem is you still put so much faith in him (which is okay to have), that you are putting your own welfare in danger. You say that it's HIS choice. What about YOUR choice?

That's what DBing is about. It's not just about trying to get your spouse back, it's about living to your potential so that you can stand on your own two feet and not rely on your spouse.

Right now he's not attracted to you because you seem to be living off him. It's not true, but that's his perception right now. What can you do to dispel that? What do you want and have to do for you?

Tough love, eh?

I am interested in your view Stuck as so far, I seem to have ladies as my great buddies on here. A man's approach is often different and the view point from a different angle.

You are right in that he probably feels very 'burdened' by me right now as I am reliant upon him - financially mostly. I have tried to get a job but nothing seems to be going my way. I am not giving up and actively pursuing everything that I can. Part of me worries in that though - if I get financially independent, H can then really go with both barrels and push the house sale, which I evidently do not want.

I think that he is being fairly patient at the moment but I ask myself if this is because he is unsure of his position with OW (who lives interstate) and whether he really has done the right thing. The other factor is that he realises the house market has dropped so badly that we would proabably come out with negative equity and that would not allow for either of us to have a good start in building a new life. There are so many 'what if's and maybe's' at the moment ...

It's not really about Tough Love. It's about respecting yourself.

Right now your life...YOUR life hinges on his R with OW. How does that sound to you? Do you like having your life in someone else's hands?

He's got the finger on the trigger and pointed at you. You have two choices. Stay still, or dodge and take the gun away.

From a guy's POV, he's going after the OW because she does one thing...stroke his ego. yet he likes having you as a fallback plan in case things don't work out.

Re-read your post above. It's all about him. Do you enjoy being treated like a dog? He'll snap his fingers and you come running. Get out and do something about it.

You are right on not respecting myself - I am working on those issues with my counsellor - and yes, it has always been all about him as far as I am concerned. H thinks that it's always been all about me however and life pre-MLC indeed evidenced that. It's why his alien behaviour is now so difficult to swallow and the fact that he has totally re-written our history and how he felt about me is so numbing.

I guess that I have never thought of my life being in his hands that way but have allowed that to happen through the partnership that M is.

Evidently, it would be good to take the gun away but how best to do that, other than what I am trying to do in DB techniques - I have no control over him or OW ...?

I called him on the 'fall back plan' and he says no, even if it all fizzles out with OW, he still won't be coming back to me - he's done, R dead, M over. He's adamant.

I do have to work more on detaching ... I am too available to him. He also knows that he is pushing my boundaries though as he has seen how I take things, bottle them and then, when I finally explode, I cut people off without even thinking about it. He knows that he runs that risk but I'm sure that he doesn't even care about that and feels that it would be a bonus for him.

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He saw a really 'together' me and one who only needed a small amount of assistance. Do you really think that he will be questioning?

I don't think he will. I saw pursuing and chasing on your part.
He knew it and felt it too.... What I believe he felt was a woman that was pursuing him and trying to act all happy and bubbly as part of the plan...

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I just said that I hoped the weather would be nice for him.

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I was so upbeat, smily and attentive to his conversation.

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It seemed to warm him and I asked if I could fix him some dinner.

You had already asked him to eat dinner BEFORE he came over and he told you no. That makes two dinner invites. That is PURSUIT.

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I joked with him that I was still waiting on my invite to his unit for coffee and he said that yes, I would be waiting a long time for that one!

I think you were secretly testing him. This is PURSUIT. A man can feel it when a woman is pursuing like this.

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I asked him if he was happy

You said it felt "appropriate". I disagree. It is NOT appropriate in your situation. What could you possibly GAIN by this question? It isn't worth the risk to ask somone if they are happy when they have LEFT you.

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as I was unable to go out and post his Fathers Day card today (yes, I decided that I woul send it!) I slipped it in to a box that he was taking - along with a packet of Beef Hula Hoops that he loves so much! I put the porch lights on and I prepared for a good parting.

You are CHASING him and pursuing him. Through most of this time together you have been pursuing and yet trying to get him to think you were just a happy woman with no worries. He didn't see the happy as much as he felt that you were still after him.

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I stayed out by the door and waved as he drove away. I smiled the whole time - though if he could see me in the dark, I'm not sure

There it is again. It is a given when a woman really likes you that she stands at the door and smiles and waves at you as you drive away.

There are more examples, but I hope you see my point. I think you are making a mistake on trying to be all happy and bubbly and yet still give him huge signs of pursuit and chasing. It is normally a turnoff to a man when he is rejecting a woman by leaving her and she keeps trying to win his attention and love. IT is ok to be happy, but it works better to act happy as if you are glad TOO that he is gone. Happy too that you realized that you don't have to be with a man who will have a blantant affair on you and that you have had an awakening and realized that you are happy BECAUSE you deserve better from a man.

That's my take. I think that he will continue to cake eat until you change direction. Trying to win him from her is a classic mistake many women make. It only serves to boost his ego to have not one BUT two women fighting for him.

I think it is a far better plan to let him WONDER IF he has lost YOU because of his behavior. That has been my observation from the successful reconcilations on this site for the most part.

Oh WOW - that's me told ... so, I have been doing all the wrong things.

Please tell me, if you can, what should I now do ... ??? Do I 'go dark' ... ?

You have opened my eyes a bit Gucci ... it's like a big awakening. When he kept threatening me a few weeks back, I retaliated and said that I had taken more than enough and would start the ball rolling on a consentual D, back in the UK. Here in Oz it's 'no fault' (which I don't consider he deserves) after just one year.

He was incensed and refused to consent as he would be 'disadvantaged financially' - so what, I say? What about my disadvantages right now??

Thoughts?? Do I bring this up with him again or is that a Last Resort which could backfire on me??

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Please tell me, if you can, what should I now do ... ??? Do I 'go dark' ... ?

First thing is to STOP ANY AND ALL PURSUIT.

Does that mean you can't talk to him?
No, it doesn't.

Take a step back here and regroup.
You seem a little weak emotionally right now, but you just have to understand the way the male ego works. I would recommend that you NOT contact him in any way shape or form and let him make the next move. You will have to be determined to wait him out this time. (Just wait him out THIS TIME)

It may take all you have to wait him out because he knows (as well as I do) that you are waiting for him to come running back to you. He has TWO women that are fighting for him. He secretly thinks he is all that. "TWO WOMEN after little old boring me"? I MUST be all that.

Regroup. Vow not to make the same mistake again. Backslide slowly destroy your chances. Many people will tell you not to beat yourself up over it. It may be wise to beat yourself up for a little here so that you know and realize WHY you can't keep doing it. People will keep telling you over and over not to worry about it and don't beat yourself up, while all along you are destroying the last glimmers of hope.

"Absence is to love that wind is to fire. It blows out the weak and kindles the strong.

I would leave him alone for awhile and let him make the next move by contacting you. Don't try to do everything at once here. Let's just get you to stop pursuing for NOW.

THANK YOU Gucci - I think that you have given me wise advice and I hope that you pop by again to see my progress.

Today is Day One. I will NOT contact him. Without pursuing, he is going to have to contact me at some point - stands to reason. When he does, I shall just show the side of me that is stronger and has run out of patience with his dalliance.

If there are things domestic that he needs to know about, do I just email them with no explanation or dialogue i.e. copy of bills etc? (As you will have gathered, I have no income right now).

Your intuition is right - I am very weak emotionally as a norm, but even more so right now in the situation that he has created for us. The way he sees it though is he is NOT having an A as he ended our M before he accepted the persual of the OW. My M vows say differently.

I'm reflecting on Gucci's words and I realise that my DB'ing is not wrong but that I had just missed out that one crucial element BEFORE I can start working on everything else. I need for him to see that I am not dying here without him; I am no doormat, waiting by the door when it pleases him to show up. What I do need is to show him that I will not tolerate the situation as is and, whilst I am prepared to be civil, I will NOT pursue him and/or stroke his increasing ego!

If I allow myself to be a sap, why would he ever respect me and WANT to return? He has to see the strong me that he has seen in the past ... but now the shoe is on the other foot and HE will be getting some of which he has hidden behind for all of these years. I will protect him no longer ... perhaps we will now see his true feelings and if not, what am I losing?? Companionship and security maybe, but if he has no love for me, why would I waste my time with a man who feels that way?

Thank you Gucci ... your wisdom has completed the picture for me. I know that everyone has been giving me good advice here but I think that this closes the gap in which I found myself falling through.

good for you.

Thanks Stuck! Just reading some sample chapters from Michele's books. I'm interested in the Solution-orientated stuff that I now need to embrace.

Have decided for myself today that I will not leave the house in the morning until I have worked out on our treadmill ... I can't afford (and have no interest) in going to the gym but pounding the treadmill will be good for ME and when H next tells me that he wants to take it to his new place, I can say "no, sorry but I use it every day now" Shame I missed that opportunity the other evening when he mentioned it in passing! Perhaps it would be a good 180 for him to actually come in and find me on the treadmill, when he next comes to our home - whenever that will be ...

He did ask me if I had been out on my bike - he saw my helmet and gloves and I said that yes, I had. That's something that we were going to do together previously and just never got around to it ...

So, for my solutions ... where do I start apart from going grey (that's semi-black)!!

Something that I have just read on someone's post has made me wonder ...

H has made no secret of the fact that there is something missing from his life right now and he continues to make me believe that it is because OW lives interstate (or that it is impractical for them to co-habit???) - meaning that he can't spend as much time as he would like with the tramp. She has kids too, which has to be another significant issue for H - he was the one that was so adamant that we wouldn't have any (I didn't care either way). He never tells me anything about it but it's just stuff that I am picking up on - I don't know if I am right or maybe miles off the mark. What I do know is that the past twice I have seen him, he has told me that he is in a "pissy mood".

If next time, and I am sure there will be, he tells me he is a bit fed up of things right now (which he will, I'm sure) do I respond and say "well, I'm sorry that you are feeling this way and your life is not working out as you wanted it to, but it was your decision. WE didn't have those issues but now I guess that you are forced to deal with the life that you have chosen". Is that the way to go in showing him that I am detaching or are those words dismissive and even passive-agressive??

I might add that he has only ever met OW 5 times although has known her in a business sense (email and phone) for past 18 months/3 years but can't work out which is right as H has told me both in the past!

Quote:

I need for him to see that I am not dying here without him; I am no doormat, waiting by the door when it pleases him to show up. What I do need is to show him that I will not tolerate the situation as is and, whilst I am prepared to be civil, I will NOT pursue him and/or stroke his increasing ego!

If I allow myself to be a sap, why would he ever respect me and WANT to return? He has to see the strong me that he has seen in the past ... but now the shoe is on the other foot and HE will be getting some of which he has hidden behind for all of these years. I will protect him no longer ... perhaps we will now see his true feelings and if not, what am I losing?? Companionship and security maybe, but if he has no love for me, why would I waste my time with a man who feels that way?

I love it Nell

Thanks (((JCJ)))

That was the strong me talking - tonight I am reduced to doubt and incredible loneliness, again. I remain true to what I said above and I really hope that I will not waiver. However, it's just after 17.30hrs here and I am wondering what else I can do to kill time before I can 'justify' going to bed.

This is just so on-going and it's seriously making me ill....

How's your day going - albeit that it's not long started!!

Oh ok, the woman at work is doing my head in a bit but that is the norm

It's Friday and Bank Holiday this weekens so I am looking forward to that.

Gucci was right in all he said last night. His style is direct and gets the point across. I was trying to hint that you were contacting him to much, as Brits I think we shy away from being direct

But seriously, take what he said on board.

There is a fine balance between being happy and upbeat and trying to please him. Trying to please and impress does not work. Being upbeat and showing yourself a capable, attractive woman does work. Now wear those boots everytime you see him and maybe everyday for you...

You mentioned that you had seen some volunteering but you didn't think you would be able to hold it together? Michele says 'just do it'. I think once you'd get there then you would hold yourself together and feel really good once you'd done it.

You could get a load of DVD's which you can throw yourself into of an evening or download Eastenders - it was great last night!

Isn't it funny how life turns on a dime. A few weeks back and I would have loved that it was Bank Holiday weekend - now I dread just a normal day .. too long and lonely. You must be doing so well (((JCJ))) to feel that you are looking forward to it and I am guessing that you will have lots planned!! Good on you.

Unfortunately, its not always to our credit as Brits that we are stiff upper lipped and try to protect other's feelings a bit too much rather than our cousins across the pond (and here in Aus) who seem to say what they think, regardless. We should be a bit more like that!

I think that Gucci was right too. I seem to have periods where it feels like I'm going dark (even though I am not) but then make up for it in having lots of reasons to contact H. There's no consistency. I have also used the weekdays for contact as I know that he will be at work and not out of town, or OW visiting. It kills me - even with the red stop sign. I never know if it's 'the weekend' or not - it seems to be every other with flights being involved and costly.

My thoughts tonight, in reading so many more posts in different forums, is that 'what if all of this is nonsense and H just plain doesn't love me, won't ever and has no intention of coming back'? He is a good person, warm hearted, genuine and sensitive and I have no reason to doubt that he is not telling the truth about what he wants for the rest of his life. Maybe he has figured this all out (which I believe to be true) and I am just not all that for him. Perhaps I should put my pride and dignity in my pocket and walk away as he has asked me to. His words were "Please let me go".

The other thought that I had was to ask him come babysit the cats for a week so that I can go home to the UK and get the ball rolling on a consentual D - giving him the freedom that he has asked for. Of course, we have spoken very briefly about this before and he says that he will not agree due to him being disadvantaged financially by the outcome but maybe this is my LR approach ... maybe I then say to him, "well, if that's not what you want, then I want you to agree to mediation and MC so that I can be as sure as you are that our M is over"

I don't have to tell you that it's not what I want but sometimes you have to realise that things are over - they just are and no matter what we do to convince ourselves, maybe we are just setting our hearts up for more pain.

Thoughts???

Nell, there's loads for you to think about today. Gucci is direct but he speaks great common sense. I think as females we are also a little more protective in how we approach issues and we try a little more to look after our 'sisters'

Nell, I know you have talked about moving back to the UK but disregarded it. Have you thought about elsewhere in Aus? I know you have a beautiful, new home but I just wonder if you'd be better in a bigger city with more opportunities for socialisation and employment. Is this a valid option? Let's face it if H would go interstate for OW he wouldn't let another state stop him when he wanted to reconcile with you. Just a thought....I throw it out there because yoour isolation seems to make this all the more emotionally challenging for you.

Cas

Hi EN

I haven't posted to you before but have been lurking and following. Gucci is absolutely right your behaviour is pursuing from your H perspective. Step well back. Your H wants you to let him go, well do it. See what happens. There's time you guys aren't D yet, no one's filed.

In the meantime, I'm more concerned about you. You really need to get out there and GAL. You've got the bike, use it, don't lie that you've used it, actually use it. The treadmill is all well and good, but getting out in the fresh air and actually running is better for a PMA (I started running when my H left).

If you have hobbies, find others who do the same, see if there's a group. Look in the local newsagents (if there's one) for things to join. BTW JCJ, I love knitting too, have you been to Loop in Islington or iknit in lower marsh st.

I know that you live in a small town, but you've got a car, go to another town and look for work if possible (I live in the UK so not sure how far the next town is). A job,no matter what it is, will give you self respect, hell your H may even respect you for it.

Hope this isn't too harsh. I'm a girl and British so no stereotypes here.

Nell, just another thought following JCJ's suggestion; Go to the library and borrow the Sea Change series.(ABC production starring Sigrid Thornton) I've just rewatched most of them while on sick leave and it's been really enjoyable even the 2nd time around.

Hi Cas
Thanks for your post.

I value Gucci's perspective ... I agree with how we talk to our 'sisters' - we try to protect through our words and advice where as guys are far more direct and tell it how it is. It's not always a bad thing, even though it can smart at the time. I am glad that Gucci gave me the kick up the derriere that I seem to have needed.

Yes, I have considered moving interstate but I am not ready yet. H has told me that he thought it would be a good thing for me to do but that, of course, would assuage his guilt with me gone and he could then take control of all that is going on here. No, I need to see this out and then when (and if) I make a move, it will be on my terms and not his. I will not make this 'easy' for him. I will co-operate, if he does with me but if not, he will not like what is coming to him

I don't see why the LBS should end up disadvantaged - we may have contributed to the failure of the M but we have not made the decision final. Meanwhile, he is adamant that he will get his pound of flesh in our settlement whilst I will be sticking it out for a pound and a half - if it comes down to that.

I totally hear what you are saying though in terms of opportunities, both social and employment. It is a concern, I can not tell a lie. The isolation that I feel does make it all the more of a challenge and it's the small things that get to me too. I mentioned before about my worry if I was to not wake up one morning, what would happen to my cats. When my girlfriend from the UK rang last night, I explored this with her and so she suggested that I send her a one liner on a Sunday and Thursday to say that I am OK! If she doesn't get the one liner, then she will call H straight away to come check!! Good plan. Made me feel heaps better, even though it may sound totally over-dramatic to some viewers of this post! I just have to know that my babies would never meet a grizzly end if something did happen to me.

Thanks for popping in, Bonny!

I know that Gucci's advice is right and I am already on Day Two of 'going dark with a grey tinge' - meaning that I will only email him stuff that is to do with the house - bills etc. I have to remain practical on that. I will not be pursuing in any way shape or form, not even to add anything other than business to emails - plan: scan bill ---> send. Nothing else. My initial goal on this is one week but I know that will do nothing (it's just my goal in a bite size piece to make it more palatable). My overall goal is as long as I can manage it for ... I know that he will eventually have something to say to me and at that time I can DB my way through the conversation. Now that I have realised, as you say, that I have time I have stopped panicking quite so much and am more able to put going dark in to practise.

Honestly, I don't know what is stopping me getting out there on my bike. I have made it all ready and I have laundered my cycle shorts .. I'm all set to go. Perhaps I am stalling as it is something that we did together and wanted to do more of but never got around to it. My bike is inviting but I just can't saddle up! However, I am going to keep on trying and, now that I have a new friend, I will ask if she will come with me one morning - just to get me started. I can cycle to hers too - it's not that far, so perhaps that thought needs to seed itself in my mind and then I can get going. Thanks for the encouragement.

Hobbies and crafts involve money and I just don't have the capacity for that right now. I have looked for all sorts of jobs and continue to get the same answer - overqualified for this and not enough experience in this country, for that. I'm also in a niche profession so it's all stacked against me at the moment - or so it feels. I know that this sounds like an excuse but I was struggling like this for 3 months before H walked out. He knows how it is and, whilst he has not said anything about the job, he has made comment about the bills. Mind you, that seems to have stopped this past two weeks. Maybe it's because he's booked a holiday and feels it unfair on me ... who knows what he's thinking??? Alien territory.

Good idea Cas - I like those programmes. They are also running them on Foxtel ... there's a similar one on UKTV too.

Meanwhile, I am still totally hooked for 40 minutes or so a day (excepting Saturdays) with Emmerdale and Coronation Street on UKTV.

I've never got in to Eastenders at all, though 1000's of poms are, I know! I did watch it the first year that it was out but I found it too depressing and IMHO not at all representative of British life. Coronation Street is much better - it's our heritage

!!!!

OK - here's the thing: the more I read and the more great advice I get, the more I am becoming confused! Why is there no emoticon for confused?!!

I have been so good all day today - congratulating myself on my third day of going dark. I got a surprise phone call from someone who I had met at my agency work recently asking me to go for coffee tomorrow, so that's something really positive. I have done loads of garden work and laundry and have not noticed the day dragging as much as it has previously - perhaps I'm starting to GAL!

I have hatched a plan to visit the local hospital on Monday and see if they have any vacancies - I would be working so far outside my speciality but if I could get something, that is not at the bedside (which I just could not bear any more) then what a great 180 that would be! It would really show H that I have gone right outside my comfort zone too.

... but here's the rub. I have just sat down and given 5 Love Languages another go and I got on with it much better this time. Infact, I found it positively inspiring! Now my thoughts are:

1) Do I continue to stay dark - I really don't think that H will even notice never mind be affected by it so I could purely be wasting my emotions?
2) I PROMISE that I would not pursue if I 'come back in to the light', now that I realise my negative behaviour (thanks Gucci)!
2) I would like to stay dark so that I could see if it really does bring results (contradicts #1)
3) If I stay dark, how do I get to communicate LL of affirmation to WAH?
4) Do I write a note to the I-L's full of positive affirmation for my H and how I have failed to identify his 'love language' over the years ... hoping that they will 'feedback' to him?

The i-l's were asking H about me last weekend and said that they had not heard from me. H has verbalised that he would not mind if I was in contact with them and I know that they would welcome it. H is not telling them much right now and I think that me being in touch would give them reassurance that he is OK. We are so far apart geographically and I'm sure that they are equally worried about him on his 'own' as they are about me - yes, they do know about OW, so H tells me and I doubt very much if they are any too impressed. I also think that he will have been very selective in what he has told them, being 'traditionalists' as they are.

Now, the above does not mean that I have ignored Gucci's advice, just purely that I am throwing a curve ball in here and fessing up to my amiguous thoughts.

Anyone - thoughts please??

The reason why you are confused is because you're still doing these things "for him". You need to do this for yourself whether or not he notices. Do you think it's something you want to do? Then do it because it makes you happy.

Not because you think it will get him back.

Live for yourself and you won't be confused.

Oh, I just don't know! Of course I want H to come back and I guess that I have to be honest and say that would be my primary intent.

I have to say though, learning that I have drained his love tanks so low, as well as my own, I do feel that to give him a top up - whether it scores me 'points' or not - would be a good and loving thing to do.

I think that I also need to practise my LL's on those who I love (back in the UK) - it is an adaptable process, seems to me, that could be used on anyone and not just spouses. Evidently, it would have to be adapted slightly or else everyone would think that you have gone nuts!

I also wonder if he would see it as a big old 180 - I'm sure that he would.

Doing it as a 180 is good. Be sure to journal everything. If he doesn't respond after a couple of weeks, change strategy.

It's funny how reading books like the LL actually help our other R with the people we are closest to. You are right in applying them to those as well.

For now, just document what your H's LL are and store that away in your head. All of these little nuggets of info are like ammunition that you can use when the situation arises.

Consider having your H back as being your ultimate goal. Then stash it away. Believe that he will come back some day and then don't think about it.

Excellent advice Stuck. Now then - what about the going dark bit ... if I am dark, I can't practise the LL's and positive affirmation?

Evidently I don't want to pursue so that's the bit that ties me in knots ... he will see me going dark as game playing .. I just know it. I have absolutely no need to contact him right now as we saw each other on Wednesday and sorted out the immediate practicalities of the house, bills etc.

Would it be OK to just wait until the next time that I NEED to have contact and then practise the LL as a 180 at that time - with NO pursuing behaviour (and checked out on the forum first)!!

Forget about what he thinks or doesn't think. If he thinks you're game playing, that's up to him.

Going dark for you is about getting your head on straight. It's about getting your life in order. You learn that you don't need someone to make you happy. You don't become co-dependent on that person.

The LL are great for when and if he comes back. That's the rub. You have to detach first and honestly let him go in order for you to truly live. Then IF he comes back, it will be up to you to see if he is worthy of you.

Our own self-esteem tends to become so damaged that we need to take care of ourselves first before anything else.

I gotcha!

Making my complimentary DB'ing Salad is evidently wrong then ... semi-dark, words of affirmation and quality time (when appropriate/available) etc ...

Detach, rebuild, get a job, GAL ---> then LL, right??

Hi Nell

Yes that is it. This is all work you are doing yourself at the moment. Do not show it yet. It is good to work out your part in things so it can help you 180 - for example I used to get pissy about h's friends (in fairness to me everyone who has met them thinks they are very annoying!). Now when he talks about them I just smile and engage in the conversation instead of acting like his mother. Just little things like that help our communication and make me fun to be around again. And actually last time he told me about one of their antics it was genuinely really funny.

In the beginning though dark and detached. He may think it is a game but when he has contact with you (post here first before responding) he will get the idea that you are actually far too busy and he is no longer your top priority. That echo's Gucci's words about the male psyche.

Quote:

Detach, rebuild, get a job, GAL ---> then LL, right??

This is good, you can do the first 4 side-by-side though, the second two will help with the first I promise.

P.S - I love Eastenders, don't watch Corrie so much lately as it hasn't got that good. Maybe it's becasue I'm a Londoner...

Thanks for positive affirmation JCJ ... I think that I am finally Dot Cotton-ing on!! (An Eastie's joke there for you - OK, so it was a bit of a groaner )!!

Hey, that's the first time I have posted a 'laugh' emoticon .. does that mean I'm on the mend?!! {Oh, word of warning - PLEASE don't say anything that's happening in Corrie or Emmerdale, even if you know, as we are a good year and 8 months respectively, behind the UK. When I was back there in June, it was murderous trying to avoid newspapers and magazines which may have had updates and my darling nephews, bless them, taped each episode for me when they knew that I was soon to arrive home}!!

Overall, I have had a better day today. I got up a little later (makes the day shorter) but that's difficult when you have whinging cats who want to go out to play any time from 4:58am onwards! Things done today include, sweeping the floors (again - it's never ending with so much sand in the garden); knocking down more webs, laundry, garden work. I've just let the puss's out now and then we are off to bed - I have a coffee meeting at 10.30 in the morning. Going to use that meeting to explore if there are any jobs around/people who can introduce me to jobs or GAL interests that are local. (Use what you have got and whilst I will have the undivided attention of a Nursey-colleague, that will be my aim)!

So, tomorrow will be Day Four of No Pursuit (can we invent a board game and earn as much as the Triv lot did - sure there must be a need for that and I am copywrighting this sentence IMMEDIATELY)!!

Big 180 for you now, so hang on to your hats - I have made an appointment to get my tax return lodged, with an accountant INSTEAD of H doing it for me, as is usual!! Are you all impressed? I am. It will also show H that I have taken control of that and am not so needy as to have to get him to do it, as we discussed the other evening. He said that he would happily do it but he felt that getting it done would be financially more beneficial ... I wonder if he realised that he will end up paying for it?!! Still, this is all about ME now and if he can go off on holiday with ow, I can have my 180 and get some $tax back - he won't be seeing a cent of that, I can tell you! I know that he is all prepared for me to ask him when he is coming around to do it. Keep waiting mon ami!

I hear your message in regard to your H's friends ... problem with us is H's dad. It's like red rag to a bull when his name is mentioned to me. Next time H mentions him, I must ask and show more interest about the old goat. See, you got a giggle out of your H's sitch, so why shouldn't I get one too?

Interesting that you say that I should not respond to him straight away and let him think that I am too busy, showing him he is not my top priority - that's exactly what I feel he has been doing to me. I wonder has he been a lurker here because I am recognising some of the behaviour patterns. Mind you, that could all be from the coaching with ow as the tramp is divorced - maybe she is a failed student from the DB Academy. Ha!

OK - off now - catch you all tomorrow. Looking forward to some good posts and some inspiring new stories ...

"Detach, rebuild, get a job, GAL"

Concentrate on this.

Quote:

1) Do I continue to stay dark - I really don't think that H will even notice never mind be affected by it so I could purely be wasting my emotions?
2) I PROMISE that I would not pursue if I 'come back in to the light', now that I realise my negative behaviour (thanks Gucci)!
2) I would like to stay dark so that I could see if it really does bring results (contradicts #1)
3) If I stay dark, how do I get to communicate LL of affirmation to WAH?
4) Do I write a note to the I-L's full of positive affirmation for my H and how I have failed to identify his 'love language' over the years ... hoping that they will 'feedback' to him?

You are caving in. Trying to find another way to pursue.
Words of affirmation will be ok AFTER he wants to come back and can not be used to win him back because it will only hurt your cause. Stop following your emotions and just work the plan. Wait him out. Let him wonder what is going on with YOU.

Do not contact the inlaws. It will work against you. IF they contact you don't even talk to them about him.

You are sounding to me like you are caving in and just looking for any way possible to stay in some type of contact. This is a sign of low self esteem and panic.

THANK YOU oh wise one!! You are totally right of course. Even though I do not do these things consciously, as you say, it is the panic and low self-esteem that hi-jacks me every time.

I have good news for you though - H emailed last night with some story about his email address not working and how I can now use an alternative. I have NOT replied and nor do I intend to. Even going by his own principal, there is no question in his message and nothing which warrants a response. H did ask after myself and the pets.

I am reciting the mantra: This is about ME not him.

So, we enter Day Four with PMA and no contact. I'm out for coffee this morning and am already planning next weeks activities.

I hear the advice re the in-laws. I will not contact them unless they email me in the first instance. I have said my piece in the recent past so I feel that they know where I stand on this. They decided to not respond so they have made their position clear.

How do I 'work the plan' if H asks me a direct question or calls me? I can tell if it's his phone calling my cell but not the land line, so I get to screen only half of the time. With email, I can of course, ignore but what concerns me is if he has issues with the house or finance. Surely that's not going to be in my best interest then to ignore him?? If he carries out his intentions to stop paying, then I could make matters worse for ME - this is not a cave in question, I promise!!! It is a genuine conern. How do I tackle that??

Would appreciate your advice, as always Gucci and I am thankful that I remain in your sights.

My Nell, did I have a heap of catching up to do on your posts.

You are getting a lot of really good strong advice so make sure you take heed and follow, don't stray.

Let me know how you go with getting any volunteer work at the hospital.

At least you are now sounding a lot brighter than your posts a few pages ago, I was really worried when I began reading them.

Really try to take care of yourself Nell.

(((Nell)))
Oz

Can you get caller ID on your land line? Can people leave messages on your land line? Get caller ID or voice mail or an answering machine on that.

If he really needs to speak with you and you don't answer the land line, he will call your cell or email you, so don't sweat not answering.

Gucci is right. Stay the course.

Thanks for droping by Dudess... yes, I have an answering machine - was forgetting about that! I shall just screen that way.

I am resolved to 'be dark' for one month. If that doesn't work, then I am already plotting my 180 - which will be LRT but may well make him sit up and take notice that I am taking back the reigns!

Hey (((Oz)))

Thanks for catching up on my posts. It's so good to journal here and it's amazing which snippets catch people's eye and tempt them in to putting in their 2 cents (always welcome people)!!

Well, I am indeed looking after myself now. I got up bright and breezy this morning and went for coffee with one of the new friends (I have two now)! Really enjoyed talking and having a good ear - Ruth was interested in the DB and 5LL models and all that they uphold .. she said that it all sounded like good common sense and could see the strength in me, as opposed to just three weeks ago.

So, Day Four of my silence. H emailed and I have not replied. Really pleased with myself that I didn't email to say Happy Father's Day, but then he didn't thank me for the Father's Day card, either. Ho hum.

When I got back from coffee I set to on the side and front lawns - cut the grass and pulled even more weeds - this job is never ending! Now, red faced and exhausted, I have eaten a large bowl of fresh tropical fruit salad, my attempt at 'being good' and having something more healthy than a bar of chocolate to fuel my day!

It remains lonely in the empty house but I have no choice in that so have to just continue to find things to do. I have decided that I am not going to pack up any more of H's stuff .. as someone else said "let WAS pack up their own dirty laundry" - apologies that I can't give the right person the credit for the quote but it is a while since I read that.

I continue to feel resentful that he has left me to sail the ship alone - he always used to say how tough a job it was for him but how does that make things for me? Still, I shall continue to uphold the standards that we have set as it won't beat me and he will not see that I can not cope on my own. I CAN and I AM and I am proud of myself for doing so. When I go to plan B next month, he will not know what has hit him. Let's get going dark out of the way first though.

Sorry, misled you on the hospital thing - I am going to see if they have any permanent jobs, not voluntary. I know vounteering would get me out but I have to earn as soon as I can manage it. I don't enjoy nursing enough anymore as to volunteer, I'm afraid!!

Nell, I had a tram flap.

Cas - sorry, what does that mean????!!!!

What do people think about taking off your Wedding Ring? I really don't want to take mine off as I still consider myself married in the eyes of the law and my marriage vows. H has taken his off, however.

I just wondered if it may shake him, the next time we meet, if I was not wearing mine? I know that I shouldn't even care what he thinks but I'm kind of thinking purely for the one meeting ... just to see if there would be a comment. Mind you, who knows when that meeting will next take place as I AM DARK!

My WR has only been off my finger once previously, on the night he dropped the bomb. I felt nekked without it and so put it back on the following morning but not before H commented that he had forgotten quite how small it was when he saw it on the coffee table. It made my heart ache.

Gucci/anyone
I am reading in Solution Focused that alot of folk advocate answering their Ss initiated contact, even when they are supposed to be dark. What are your thoughts on this?

Example: H emailed me this morning to advise of new email address. Should I ignore that (as dark would suggest) or do I just write back and say "I appreciate you letting me know - thanks" and nothing more until the next time he initiates? Of course, in checking the wisdom of this action via the board, it will buy me a few days and so he will be wondering where I am in the meanwhile. This could be seen as a bonus 180 as I would normally respond on the same day!

I don't want to pee him off entirely as don't forget that I am totally reliant upon him financially at the moment. If he sees me as playing games, he might well withdraw finances and then I am right up the Swanny.

What do you think - and NO - I am not caving or finding other ways to pursue, I promise!! Straight forward question.

How about just an 'ok, thanks'.

It is more abut not being overly responsive as you would if you were pursuing.

Thank you for your message on my thread. That quote really helped me thanks.

Or, there is no real need for response to that. He isn't asking a question as such.

Hi Nell

I hope the hospital you go to see has some permanent jobs that would be fantastic.

I have left my wedding ring on, purely because I am not at that point of giving up. Just my thoughts.

You seem to now have the hang of everything which absolutely fantastic. I feel I have gone a bit backward these few days given I am just too exhaused to GAL or be smiley.

I think you have found your feet and things can only get better from hereon in for you.

(((Nell)))

JCJ - liked your first thought but probably like your second thought better. You are right - what is there to reply to and he has already said that he doesn't reply to me if he feels that there is no need. A bit of his own medicine can not possibly be seen as being hypocritical from me, then!! Thanks!

Glad that you liked the quote ... go to your thread to see a new one that I have left for you

Thanks Oz.

I feel the same about you in regards my Wedding Ring. I can't part with it, not for a moment. I did think about taking it off on our Anniversary (11 Sept) as that would be a symbolic day for me but again, we are still legally married, so why would I?? I just know that I would hate it and I don't want to give up either. If ever it is enforced upon me, then I would feel so awful without it. It would surely feel like you have been ex-communicated from The Club and a visual sign that you no longer have a strong place in the 'married' community. Me over-reacting again, probably!

Thanks for confirming that I am getting to grips with this ... I'm sure that there will be days when I fall down again but I know that you ladeez will be here to pull me up and failing that, I will get a bit of the Gucci treatment again so woe betides me!!! (Only joking Gucci - I NEED the stern talks - you know that I do)!!

I don't think that you have gone backwards at all. I think that you are moving forward in strides. All your GAL activities has just knocked the stuffing out of you and, whilst you support others so well and so often, this may be a time to sit back, enjoy your to-date successes and let others support you. We have to take it in turns - we are all at different stages at different times and whoevers shout is the most desperate gets the most help - that's the way it works in 'families' isn't it??

Take some time out (((Oz))) and be kind to yourself. You sound exhausted.