Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: K4D K4D Rising #4 - 07/19/09 10:27 PM
These threads sure lock up fast.

Anyways, this whole D thing really sucks. I mean to sit and act like we are strangers just really frusturates me. 11 years together and to be treated like a stranger. Just total BS.

I think I am frusturated because I am about to give my kids back to W for another week. Like everyone else here, I didn't choose this situation and it just sucks.

I'm just going through the motions right now. Ignore me. Sundays are always hard for me. I want my freakin family back intact, but I have no freakin say. Just frusturated.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/19/09 11:11 PM
I'm going out for dinner with a friend as soon as my W picks up my kids. That always helps.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 12:35 AM

I guess it just feels like my kids are going home and I can't go home with them.

Kevin
Posted By: Orich Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 01:08 AM
Kevin, I'm right with you, man. My family is all still In the same house, but it's like make believe. It's very frustrating. We were all just at a family party, and at the end of the evening, everyone is sitting with their spouses around an outdoor fireplace. Some wife is getting her husband another beer. A husband has his arm around his wife as the huddle next to the fire. And there is my wife laughing and joking with her niece as I sit alone watching all the other couples. Then we get home, and I put the kids to bed while she goes out with friends.
She told me once when we were first together that she couldn't imagine doing anything without me. We will always do everything together, she told me.
This absolutely sucks.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 05:51 AM
well it's true. (BTW, sometimes no one can respond to your post I think b/c you mention fb so you might not want to do that as folks here -moderators too- do not want personal contact info handed out) or maybe therre was another reason that no one could post back to you.

Um, I have nothing to say about you and OW b/c I never thought you'd ask someone out anytime soon BUT you definitely overthink things. A woman being friendly to you, especially if she sees a ring on your finger may mean she feels safe. Not everyone is out to have an affair. If she gets inappropriate, handle it then and don't spend energy on it now. Way way too much worrying about stuff. And if she did flirt a bit, enjoy that and don't analyze so much.

Oh, about the anniversary...you maybe right to ignore it but here's a way to respect her wishes IF she actually said "do nothing"

"W, I know you don't wish to celebrate the anniversary of our M, and I accept that choice. So I just got this card b/c I'd be remiss not to say thank you for these wonderful children we have and their existence in my life. If it weren't for our marriage, they wouldn't be here, so I say, "here's to them, and thank you for bringing them into our world." Sincerely, Kevin

Just a thought. I have a hard time believing she'd get angry at this but if she rolls her eyes, I'd hold my head high BUT please please, EXPECT NOTHING....if you plant a seed, it takes time to grow. If you didn't, so what? You said something nice, something real, and something your d's should KNOW is true for you anyhow. So leave after you drop the card off and don't wait for her to read it. Please, please just head out and as I said, hold your head high...as for her anti-Catholic bigotry...not that surprising. I have run into it a lot although I'm not particularly attentive, (not nearly as much as I should be) and read somewhere that it's the most underrated prejudice in America...oh well. But you know It's not as if she's arguing "the various roads to salvation" or "Augustine's views on the sacraments and the trinity", for God's sake. Seriously, it actually makes me laugh in these situations.

Back to now and you and GAL...how's THAT going?

j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 02:05 PM
Orich,

I have been in those situations to with W. It is hard when you see everyone else being a couple and your W is having a good time without you and you are just sitting there wishing you were a couple again. It's not easy.

25,

It seems that you and Bob are in agreement on this anniversary idea and I am still praying on it as I don't want to screw anything further up. But if I could plant a seed, it would definitely be worth a try if I do it correctly.

Last night I asked W if she could pick up the girls at 7:30. She showed up and got them. She looked so good again. Black high heal sandals, a short summer dress, plenty of cleavage showing, hair done up. I understand what Orich is saying on his thread about the urge hitting. It was hitting hard last night. I miss the intimacy with her.

Anyways, I loaded her van and hugged the girls. I almost broke down in tears. My eyes watered up and I turned away and just waived goodbye to my W as I headed back up to my apartment. I heard her say bye. I turned back to look at my girls and one last look at W then went inside.

About 10 minutes later I get a phone call from W saying that she was sorry for being late and that I am certainly welcomed to call the kids anytime I want this week. I said thank you and I will. She told me to have a good evening and I said the same to her.

I went out to dinner with 2 friends and enjoyed the evening. It has become my every other Sunday ritual to help start off my week after losing my kids. I came home after and listened to a sermon on my computer and then went to sleep.

I'm feeling kind of down today and so I prayed some more to have my M and family restored in time.

Yesterday was a tough day for me. I was feeling very emotional and so tired of this situation. I need to start lifting weights. My kids pointed out to me that mommy like Dwane "The Rock" who is very muscular also. She is really into guys with muscles. I'm going to start this week.

No, she doesn't argue about importance of salvation. She is just of the mentality she will be forgiven for anything she does so she is going to do what makes her happy.

I did take my kids to a pool party yesterday that got rained out. They had fun before the rain kicked in. Then we got home and I spent time with each of them on the computer watching them play there wizard101 game. They were each showing me what they do and what kind of wizard they are. It was fun. I just enjoyed sitting next to them and they enjoyed explaining it to me and showing me.

As far as the OW, I did not ask her out and will not. She isn't an OW for me. I just didn't know what to make the way she acted.

As far as GAL, I have something going on each night this week. I get my kids this week Thursday night and Saturday night, then next week Monday and Tuesday night, then Thursday night thru Sunday.

I think I am in a bit of a funk again and I have to work to get out of it again.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 02:28 PM
One thing that makes me mad is obviosly that our S's would be involved in an A. But what makes me even more upset is that someone else would have something to do with someone that is married. What is wrong with the people of the world these days?

There just seems to be very little morality these days and respect for the institution of M.

I am backsliding aren't I. I need to lose my frusturations again and just hand it over to God. I don't need to be dwelling on any of this.

It's raining outside this morning and gray. I think that kind of weather sometimes gets me down.

Hopefully today will be a good day. It will be what I make of it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 03:30 PM
Granted I didn't show strength yesterday. But that phone call also told me that my W has a heart that isn't completely made of stone either.

I listened to a daily message from rejoice ministries this morning. Those are always uplifting.

Does anyone know what happened to CityGirl and DavidsWife? I haven't seen the post in a while. Just curiouse.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 03:49 PM
I am thinking about having the Joe Beam marriage seminar people call my W since she won't listen to me. Good idea or bad? Will it get me into more trouble or is there a chance she might consider it?

Does it fall back under controlling and manipulative?

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 03:50 PM
A few things...

I posted an update on my thread yesterday afternoon, I posted two updates actually and if you go back you will be able to read them if you are so inclinded.

One thing you might consider doing is shifting the way you think a bit about your kids going "home". Right now your home *is* there home and your W's house is their "home". They just happen to have two at the moment so try and think of your apartment as their home too. Your W's house isnt their only home.

As far as an OW/OM dating a married person - you have no idea what your W (or any WAS) is telling the other person. They could be saying they are separated or a divorce is in progress. If I met somebody who said their divorce was in progress I still might hold off until things are finalized but it would be a totally different dynamic than hearing they are married. So you cant guess who is saying what.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 03:53 PM
Do you think soliciting your W via a 3rd party (which will totally blindside her) to attend a marriage seminar will do any good?

You are backsliding Kevin. And this happens each time you see our W or she says one kind thing to you. This means you do not know how to manage expectations and you are not detached.

Do NOT have anybody call her regarding marriage C'ing or seminars. It will be the worst possible thing you could do. She has made herself perfectly clear and why would you keep pursuing her when she does NOT want that?
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 04:02 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I am thinking about having the Joe Beam marriage seminar people call my W since she won't listen to me. Good idea or bad? Will it get me into more trouble or is there a chance she might consider it?

Does it fall back under controlling and manipulative?

Kevin


Don't do it, Kevin. It's a bad idea. She won't listen to them either, and it will piss her off royally if you did this! Yeah...it'll get you into more trouble with her. I don't think there's any chance she will consider it...and it is manipulative.

Right now, she wants time and space away from you. I know it's hard, but you need to leave her alone right now. Big time. Many of us here are struggling with spouses that left us, so we know the feelings your having. Leave her alone. That's the best thing you can do for her, your relationship, and yourself right now. Good luck, and keep working at it.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 04:32 PM
Ok, thanks for letting me know. I will not have them contact her then. I think I am going to do that anniversary card with a pic of the girls though.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 04:48 PM
Does this sound needy? I haven't sent it.

W,

I'm sorry about yesterday. It was just hard saying goodbye to the girls and seeing you again yesterday. You looked so beautiful and my feelings always hit me hard everytime I see you.

It just made me wish things weren't this way as I long for my family to be back together. I was feeling a bit emotional yesterday and somewhat this morning.

I hope you have a good week with our kids. Thank you for calling me and letting me know I can call and talk to them.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 04:51 PM
Yes very...
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 04:58 PM
More backsliding I guess.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 05:02 PM
Your potential message is filled neediness and longing. You keep telling her how hard this is (needy, unable to stand on your own and be a strong man and shows no acceptance of her choices).

Telling her she looks beautiful at this point is pursuit and most probably annoying to her. Its fine to feel emotional but deal with it on your own and dont tell her that - again, it only shows her how much control she has over you and your emotions.

You need to act way more cool, collected, detached and "as if" around her. If you stop and look at the patterns - when you do act that way towards her she tends to reach out to you more. When you act needy and clingy she backs away. So, thinking in those terms what is working and what is not?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 05:07 PM
True. She knows how I feel. No need to reiterate it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 07:23 PM
I like this letter that TheWifey wrote to her H. In my case it would be divorce papers, not separation papers. None the less, it seemed to actually work for her.

"No guilt trips. This is just reality. I love you. I would do anything for you. I want more than anything for you to be happy.

It does not matter what you say. I love you. I may be a stupid fool but I promised to love you forever and that is what I intend to do. I took marriage vows and I will live them and stand for our marriage. They will have to break down my door and come in with guns and force my fists open and make me take separation papers. They will have to cut off my finger to take off my wedding ring.

If I have to love you and be alone at the same time then I better grow a thick skin fast because I have honestly tried not to love you. I have tried and I can not stop. I do not want anyone else and I never will.

You will come to realize that we belong to each other. It may take years for you to see that. But there is no one else I would rather wait for the rest of my life than you. I do not care how I am judged by anyone, except you.

I will make you proud of me, baby. You will see that we are better together than alone. There will come a time that you will feel alone, and I will be there for you. I will be waiting for you with complete forgiveness and open arms."

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 07:45 PM
What works for one person may or may NOT work for another person. I cannot stress enough the damage you will do if you send that letter to your W. It will not work as you are hoping it will - it smacks of pursuit and you being needy and unable to accept or move forward as a man. Do what you want but I think sending such a letter is a huge mistake.

It seems you are back to finding new angles to get your W back and that is not what you are supposed to be focusing on right now. You, your children and your job should be your key elements and where all your effort should be channeled.

If you MUST send her something keep it very simple, very light, non mushy/romantic and do not mention feelings or the M.

I urge you not to send such a note - for your own good. You will be destroyed by her reaction. I can almost guarantee it.
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 08:00 PM
Kev,

You asked after CG and me, and here we are.

I totally agree w/her - DO NOT SEND THAT LETTER! Once again, your focus is on your W - what will win her back, what she will notice, etc.

Even your comment about weightlifting was centered around your W - that your D commented that your W likes some guy w/muscles. Lift weights or whatever, because it's for you, good for you, etc. WAW's want what they can't have, and you keep making it crystal clear that she can have you back whenever she wants. That's why it' about YOU, and what's good for YOU and your daughters.

All these months and we're still telling you the same stuff. That's why I needed a break. CG's thread has some very good stuff on it, glad to see you're over there checking it out.

Do the work, Kev. There are no shortcuts.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 08:02 PM
Ya, I don't know why I am focus'd on her today. I guess it is because I had to see her yesterday and send my kids back to her.

I will just stick with the anniversary card and pic of the girls. That seems to be the best route to planting a seed at this point.

I had just looked up yall's posts and had seen that neither of yall had posted to anyone lately, so I was just curious.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 08:43 PM
I am backsliding bad today. I will try and get refocused tonite. I know better than to try anything at this point. I'm not sure why these ideas are popping into my head.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 08:49 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I am thinking about having the Joe Beam marriage seminar people call my W since she won't listen to me. Good idea or bad? Will it get me into more trouble or is there a chance she might consider it?

Does it fall back under controlling and manipulative?

Kevin


YES!!!!!!
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 08:52 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Does this sound needy? I haven't sent it.

W,

I'm sorry about yesterday. It was just hard saying goodbye to the girls and seeing you again yesterday. You looked so beautiful and my feelings always hit me hard everytime I see you.

It just made me wish things weren't this way as I long for my family to be back together. I was feeling a bit emotional yesterday and somewhat this morning.

I hope you have a good week with our kids. Thank you for calling me and letting me know I can call and talk to them.

Kevin


Your best bet is to only send the last line about hoping she has a good week.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 09:02 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I like this letter that TheWifey wrote to her H. In my case it would be divorce papers, not separation papers. None the less, it seemed to actually work for her.



Kevin, it only "worked" if you call it that because I have worked hard to detach and get to the point that I could make that decision. If he walks away and doesn't try, or D's me, then I still stand by my decision.

I always knew if my husband died first I wouldn't remarry. So this is in line with my personal values.

This does not mean I am weak or needy. I am detached. I GAL like crazy. My house is almost completely redecorated. I don't backslide because I don't. It is now a part of me and I am in control of my life.

Kevin, you and your wife are not at the point that you can send this. In fact I think it might only hurt you. I sent this with no expectations. You can't say you could send it with no expectations and mean it.

I'd been feeling like I had no choices in any of this. It was going to happen and there was nothing to change it. I realized he has his choices and I have mine.

HE will make the best choices for him and I for me. This means I chose uncertainty - so I can no longer complain about it. I haven't stopped anything, he could still go forward.

You aren't as far along in the sitch, Kev. Everything she does makes you spin. Do some growing, some detaching, and lots of accepting.
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 09:57 PM
Listen to Wifey!
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/20/09 10:54 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I am thinking about having the Joe Beam marriage seminar people call my W since she won't listen to me. Good idea or bad? Will it get me into more trouble or is there a chance she might consider it?

Does it fall back under controlling and manipulative?
Before I read any further, of course it's controlling and manipulative. And pursing and ignoring what she tells you all the time....You had to ask this? You barely want to acknowledge the kids on the anniversary out of "respect for your w's wish to be left alone" but THIS is something you think she'd appreciate?? Come on now, you showed great insight a few posts back, but then you do this AGAIN...so have some staying power with your plan and turn it back over, AGAIN, and leave it there, AGAIN....
Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 12:01 AM
Please send nothing to her of the sort....why on earth would you? What happened that calls for an explanation, let alone an apology? Did you cry in front of her? I mean, what is this about? And of course it sounds needy b/c it is. Here's why....and where and when, so you'll know the nature of your wording and what is suggests to us.

Originally Posted By: The Wifey
Originally Posted By: K4D
Does this sound needy? I haven't sent it.

W,

I'm sorry about yesterday. It was just hard saying goodbye to the girls and seeing you again yesterday. You looked so beautiful and my feelings always hit me hard everytime I see you.

Here you go, telling her about your pain and needs...which she can't stand you doing and which has only succeeded in pushing her away. And why on earth are you apologizing? Did you cry in front of her? If so, discussing it only calls attention to what we hope was a momentary loss of control of your emotions, which is another thing she does not like or find attractive.


It just made me wish things weren't this way as I long for my family to be back together. I was feeling a bit emotional yesterday and somewhat this morning.

All about your pain and needs and wishes, and the hourly changes in them, again. Why tell her this? What's the goal? You think she forgot what you want? Trust me, she knows all about this...


I hope you have a good week with our kids. Thank you for calling me and letting me know I can call and talk to them.

An excuse for contacting her, when the real reason is pursuit and expressing your needs again. It's not necessary to say anyhow as you already told her "same to you" about wishing her a good week. As for "Letting you call them" while they are with her --this will be legally mandated so let's not get too grateful for the minimal crumbs..It's nice to say "thanks" and be polite, but don't confuse her saying that to you, with some sort of gesture or "gift" to you. She probably knows she has to allow this OR maybe she is being nice and doesn't know she's required to allow it. But you already said THANKS so there is literally NO point in sending this or even thinking of it, except as yet another excuse for contact/pursuit which SHE TOLD YOU SHE HATES....

The good news is that your interaction was fine unless she saw tears streaming down your face -did she? If so, that must have been weird for the kids. If you did cry, AND if she saw it, then the only thing you would EVER need to say would be that "it won't happen again" so she doesn't get too uncomfortable around you, and that it's b/c you miss being with the girls. Which is partly true and not so pursuing...also takes the pressure off her, which you seem hell bent on putting on all the time...

As far as I could tell from your earlier post I don't know what it is you are apologizing for. Is there something you forgot to say? This is confusing to me on a number of levels.



Kevin


Your best bet is to only send the last line about hoping she has a good week.


Here is what I really to tell you and I heard it in an odd place. Some tv show with Elizabeth Edwards, the wife of Sen Edwards former candidate for President. Her backstory is she has been married to him for something like 26 years. She has cancer again, was getting chemo when her h cheated on her and apparently fathered a child with OW....and now he's very sorry and they're working on their M, etc. Lots of pain and etc. I'm not a political fan of the man but I was fascinated by this strong woman who has been through A LOT and found some inner strength that is really admirable.

So here's the deal in her life backstory --Long ago they lost a child in a car accident, which is every parent's nightmare. Later they had more kids, h ran for office, lost, or won, then h lost the Presidentail bid, was about to go home officially thinking of getting out of the primary race, and went home, and then the cancer came back and it's terminal (= death within a few years) AND, OH btw, an OW is pregnant and might by your h's kid...NICE!!

So here's what she said that struck me, and much of it relates to ALL of us, but some of it hit me with "Kevin HAS to hear this"...so here are some semi exact quotes that follow and take what you will from it--

"When you suffer a loss, you wonder how you'll get thru it. You think it just hurts so bad and you want the pain to stop almost at any cost. you think OMG, how can I cope? Even when you know down deep that you will someday laugh again, love again, maybe be happy again, you know you will never be the same again. These major events change you forever, for better or for worse, which is our choice to make, whether we'll be better people after this suffering, or worse....But my biggest regret is how much time I wasted on trying to get my old life back; it's gone. It cannot ever be the same again. So you have to adapt to what IS, and make the best of that, whatever it is, and move forward trying to create a good life in the aftermath of a terrible loss...but trying to get back what is gone, or can never be the same again, is such a waste of time. Definitely my biggest regret of lost time and energy I could have put to creating something good, and beautiful instead of looking back at what once was but cannot be the same again...
Deal with the new reality and accept it. Create what you can from what you still have..." the end


Kevin, does any of this resonate with you? I hope so, b/c it has themes in it we can all learn from. Elizabeth Edwards just wrote a book called "resilient" and If I can buy it without giving money to her h's pocket, I might just buy it. She is working on forgiving and she DID mention OW (NOT BY NAME) and said, "how can anyone date a married man? How can women not have more respect for Other women?"

I agree with you and her, and say the same thing to all people who date marrieds..."WHY? Aren't there enough single people you can destroy without taking some kids down the tubes with you too? Sheesh!"

Good luck Kevin, the best thing is that you seem to recongize faster when you backslide and they seem to not slide so far...but you gotta choose to move faster, farther and keep the progress you make and HOLD ONTO IT.
j-
Posted By: mnt_dreams Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 12:10 AM
Quote:
"When you suffer a loss, you wonder how you'll get thru it. You think it just hurts so bad and you want the pain to stop almost at any cost. you think OMG, how can I cope? Even when you know down deep that you will someday laugh again, love again, maybe be happy again, you know you will never be the same again. These major events change you forever, for better or for worse, which is our choice to make, whether we'll be better people after this suffering, or worse....But my biggest regret is how much time I wasted on trying to get my old life back; it's gone. It cannot ever be the same again. So you have to adapt to what IS, and make the best of that, whatever it is, and move forward trying to create a good life in the aftermath of a terrible loss...but trying to get back what is gone, or can never be the same again, is such a waste of time. Definitely my biggest regret of lost time and energy I could have put to creating something good, and beautiful instead of looking back at what once was but cannot be the same again...
Deal with the new reality and accept it. Create what you can from what you still have..." the end


Wow! I think that will strike a chord with all of us!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 04:42 AM
Yes, that resonates with me. I didn't send anything. I was just having a backsliding day today and yesterday. I'm doing better tonight.

I did not cry when the kids were leaving. My eyes did water up, but I did not cry.

Yes, I was feeling emotional yesterday as they were leaving. If that is weak, then I guess I am weak at times.

Well, my W discovered that the kids were going to mass with me. So she asked why. I went into my reasoning behind it. She chose to disagree with me on the reasoning but didn't say anything else. I'm sure she was seething as it was IMing back and forth. Either way, that is where I am going and when I have the girls, that is where they will be going with me. There is nothing she can do about it. It is one huge strike against me. But I'm not caving on that issue. She doesn't even take them to church, so why she cares which one I take them to, I don't know.

Either way, that set me back majorly with her I am sure. She wanted no part in discussing the logic with me. She said she wasn't interested in a theological discussion. Funny because she told me that her and her 55 year old friend have the greatest theological discussions. Oh well.

Now I am less sure about the anniversary card with the kids pics in it. But that is still 2 weeks away. I may do it anyways and just do it the way 25 told me to.

So if I take a stand for something and set my boundaries she detests me and if I don't, she doesn't respect me.

Can't win.

Kevin
Posted By: mac-ct Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 05:20 AM
Yo K4D.

Thank goodness you didn't send anything. Boy oh boy I know the temptation is there to throw everything but the kitchen sink at the "problem". Been there, done that. And we all know how very hard it is to resist but resist you must.

I just posted this on my thread -

I've been told by one very good freind, that she DOES know I love her. she DOES know I'm here for her, she DOES know she can come back, she DOES know I'm improving day-by-day. Rubbing her nose in it isn't going to help in any way.

Sometimes I forget this advice - but it's true - even if I sometimes doubt it.

Don't feel bad about having a couple of downers - must be something in the water - I did exactly the same on Sunday. Share those downers here - we all have very wide shoulders.

Crying is not weak! Just got to choose your moments - not in a public bar for example wink
Sorry that sounded flippant - just my humor gland kicking in - forgive me.

Quote:
So if I take a stand for something and set my boundaries she detests me and if I don't, she doesn't respect me.

Can't win.


Oh yes you can!

Have a great day one and all

Mac
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 05:41 AM
Quote:
So if I take a stand for something and set my boundaries she detests me and if I don't, she doesn't respect me.


K4D- every read up on my nightmare? Trust me you are right that you can't win with her.

Boundaries will piss her off. You being healthy will piss her off and mess with her version of who you are!!! That is what you want. So, do it. Not out of spite, out of you saying "this is me at my best, take it or leave it"...YKWIM?

You want your kids going to mass, you are saying that is an important part of who you are. That's it. If she can't learn to respect it...what are you gonna do, fake who you are?

You can win, just not with her right now.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 09:43 AM
Are you still going to those AA meetings?

What about the C. What ever happened with that? When's your next appointment?

You are going right back to being the old Kevin again. What ever happened to doing what you want to do for you? You are still looking for the quick answers even after all this time.

Let's face it, even about the girl. You are so transparent. You wanted to know if we thought she was interested in you. Admit it. You wanted validation because that's what you're not getting from your W.

Kevin, the reason why everyone bailed on you online is because you haven't changed at all. You take that last comment you made about your W liking guys with muscles and you can put it right next to the comment your W made about liking guys with money a year ago and it's the same.

Are you still on meds? How many sessions have you actually had with the C? Or is this something again that you only show up once to and then not follow up?
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 12:56 PM
Well, my W discovered that the kids were going to mass with me. So she asked why. I went into my reasoning behind it. She chose to disagree with me on the reasoning but didn't say anything else.

So she disagreed. Fine. She CHOSE to say nothing else but you kept talking and explaining. Less is more. You could have said "W, my faith is an important part of my life that I would like to include our girls in" and left it at that. You could have also practiced a bit of validation there but instead chose not to.


I'm sure she was seething as it was IMing back and forth. Either way, that is where I am going and when I have the girls, that is where they will be going with me. There is nothing she can do about it. It is one huge strike against me. But I'm not caving on that issue. She doesn't even take them to church, so why she cares which one I take them to, I don't know.

Again - you are mind reading and speculating that she is seething which means you are allowing her to control your thoughts. Sharing your faith with YOUR children is not a strike against you and if she thinks it is... who cares? At this point anything you try and do will be viewed as a strike against you as far as your W is concerned so stop worrying about it. You cant or wont please her right now so stop trying. There is a BIG difference between caving and setting your boundaries. If ya'll are going to co-parent these sorts of discussions will come up and so far you have taken a stance that is not condusive to a productive discussion about how you will raise your girls as far as church is concerned.

Either way, that set me back majorly with her I am sure. She wanted no part in discussing the logic with me. She said she wasn't interested in a theological discussion. Funny because she told me that her and her 55 year old friend have the greatest theological discussions. Oh well.

WAS and logic dont usually go hand and hand. Again, she made it clear that she does not want to discuss things with you and prefers to discuss them with other men. What does that say to you?

So if I take a stand for something and set my boundaries she detests me and if I don't, she doesn't respect me.

Setting boundaries in a loving and firm way is for you. How the WAS reacts to that is not something you can control. Boundaries are not about earning respect from your WAS - they are about taking control of YOUR life.

Can't win.

You are right - you cant win because this is not a game and you keep playing this game and dancing this dance with your W. When you make it about you and you only then you will lose the "cant win" outlook.

And yes, what about the C'ing appts and AA? I hope they werent a one time thing.

Honestly, not much has changed - you are still doing things in hope to impress your W and we all see right through you. Chances are she does too.
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 01:23 PM
you gotta "drive" your life, YOUR LIFE ...like you are driving down an incredibly narrow city street with all the typical mega traffic every which way. In order to successfully navigate through this intensely saturated mess you MUST maintain your focus on YOU and YOU'RE "vehicle" (aka ..life) with only periodic occasional glimpses of the other motorists just to maintain proper spacing and safety.

Your W is but one of the other motorists and at THIS POINT she views you as just one of the other dang cars on the road (just as you HAVE to do).

Your mission, should you choose to accept it is to keep your auto ding-free (no paint swapping ..this sure aint no demo. derby), keep her between the painted lines, keep your speed up, be vigilant to your surroundings using all your sensory mechanisms. watch out for pedestrians ...ole' hunched over ladies with canes, umbrellas, walkers ..what not.

Only this is life ...this aint no game. Many of the same rules apply though.

You are doing more well than past Kevin but future Kevin has to do it weller than present Kevin.

Got it!

Good.

Walk swiftly with the Lord with all you got. Your W is NOT your friend ..count on your friends to boost you.


Ted
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 01:26 PM
how about answering some of the Q's your being asked too.
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 01:30 PM
It appears I will be quite blessed tonight to attend our NE standers mtg in NY (which I fairly infrequently get to go to cuz of my work schedule requiring me to take time to make the long drive ..oh but it is soooo worth it)

We'll be saying prayers that will nearly lift the roof off the Chinese restaurant and prayers for you and your's will surely be a part of that.

Be well bro'

Ted
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 04:05 PM
To answer your questions... No. I am no longer going to AA or counseling. I have been going to a priest each Monday night. I found that looking at things from a spiritual side is much stronger and better. I am able to talk with him about stuff and he is helping me out in a few different area's. I felt like I needed spiritual guidance. The AA meeting that I went to really had a lot of screwed up people in it and it seemed like half of the conversation was F this and F that, etc. Just didn't feel like that was somewhere I should be after thinking it over.

On top of that, alcohol does not have power over me anymore. It used to. It no longer does. It does not control me. I can avoid it with ease now.

I did meet with my priest again last night and that seems to be helping me. I am reading a lot and listening to sermons, etc. Just because I had a down day or 2 doesn't mean I have turned back into the old Kevin. I'm doing fine today.

CG, I know that W is seething because she detests the catholic church and has made no secret of it to me many times and she also threatened months ago to give me problems with the kids if I took them to mass. So I am not speculating on that one. I know firmly where she stands on that.

I'm not sure what I am doing to try and impress her. My stand for the church I am going to is not to impress her. I know how much she is against it.

Ok, yes, lifting weights would be to try and make myself more attractive to her. I don't see a problem there as DBing tells us to make ourselves more attractive to our S. That is just one of the ways in which I can do that. And I will get some health benefits out of it anyways.

Stuck808, whether or not I was wondering if she was interested in me is beside the point. I have no intention of taking her up on anything should she be interested in me. It is flattering if she is and the thought had crossed my mind wondering if she is. But nothing will come of it because I am not pursuing it.

Tomato, I'm glad you are getting to go to the prayer tonite with the standers. Thank you for making sure I am included in those prayers.

Everyone say what yall will. This is the path I have chosen. I am focusing on my spiritual side and yes, I do still pray for my M to be restored. I'm not going to stop praying for that. I also pray that I make the changes needed for myself and my family. I pray for the standers for their M's to be restored as well as many M's on DBing. I do things with friends. I avoid situations now that could put me in a tempting situation.

I try to put my faith in God as much as possible. It doesn't mean I don't have bad days or wonder if anything will ever change.

But I really try to stick to the core things of the church the more I learn.

I feel like I am finally finding the right path for me through the church and through the standers. I still need a hobby besides poker. I am working on that one. Dancing is becoming one of those hobbies. That is fun.

I fully expect to get 2X4's but that is ok. I am comfortable with my stance.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 04:08 PM
Also D11 wanted to talk to the priest. So he has offered to come over and talk to her. I will make a good dinner one night and invite him over. He is a really great priest. He cares very much about people and is a very humble person. He has a lot of insight. There isn't much that a priest hasn't experienced in life with all the people they interact with through their service.

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 04:29 PM
Kevin,

I don't think there's anyone on here who would argue with you getting spiritual advice/guidance. However, I think some of us are puzzled about not going back to your counselor, and dropping the AA meetings. Every addict I've known, starts to meetings, rehab, etc, and starts to justify that "I just don't belong here,(or "I'm not comfortable") because I'm not like THOSE people". And ofcourse, they are just like those people, and then you know that they're still in denial about the problem.

Alcohol may not be your addiction of the moment, you've swapped it out for the addiction of your wife. You need to find a way to control your own life, and a 12 step program is a good start.

Stacy
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 04:35 PM
Religion can always be a touchy subject between spouses - especially two estranged spouses. Perhaps you can ask your priest for advice on how to approach this with your W.

What we all want for you is to obtain, use and implement the tools needed for you to accept this situation, be strong for yourself and your girls, cut the neediness out of your life, stop scheming for ways to impress/attract your wife, detach and realize you can and will be happy w/o your W. If you do that through religion, AA or C'ing, well, whatever works. There are many approaches and none are more right than the other. The spiritual approach is important but if it is not providing you with the tools you need then you should incorporate another form of *something* be it C'ing, group support or whatever it is you think is best.

You still mind read, speculate and try and control the situation and you still have expectations. You backslide way too often for being as far along as you are in your separation and your W still controls most of your thoughts, ideas and motivations. If your church is helping you obtain the tools to curb these issues then great. If not, keep up with the church to bolster your spiritual side but find another outlet to get what you need for these issues.
Posted By: mac-ct Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 04:36 PM
Hi Kev,

I feel I need to chip in here.

I _thought_ that I didn't need to see a therapist.
It's not the "sort of thing" that the English do (now recognize there are a hell of a lot of them that should ;-)

When I first went I thought "what the heck is he doing?".
This isn't helping ME.
And you know what - when I continued and stuck to it - the light came shining in.

Don't give up Kev.

Grin (big cheezy one) and bear it.

YOU are worth this.

Chin up!

Mac
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 05:04 PM
I accept that the current circumstances are what they are. I accept that they may be this way for a very long time. I don't accept that there is no hope in the future. I accept that through God all things are possible and it is his will to restore marriages in his time and not mine.

I could be in for a 10 year run or longer. I hope not. But I could be. Thats why getting a life is so important so as to keep from dwelling on the current circumstances and also allow me to live as I should with what each days circumstances are.

Faith in God and a good priest IMO is about as good a route as one can choose for help. That is just my own personal opinion. But I think that people should do what works best for them. In my particular case and I hate to admit this while I have said it before... I actually do better with distance between me and my W. When I am around her, that is when it really hits me. When I have had some time to be apart from her, I do much better.

I know that I am not in control of this situation. God is. The more I try and do anything, the more I interfere. So it is best for me to stay out of it and just work on me and let the rest happen as it should with God.

I'm doing fine. I'm not perfect. I backslide sometimes. It happens. But I recognize it and I try to get out of it. Maybe not always by snapping my fingers and having it done right that second. But I do.

I'm going to dinner with a friend tonite that I met at my divorce support group which I am still going to. He is currently going through a D and is working on himself. However he is preparing to find someone else as soon as this is over for him. He wants to save his M, but doesn't see any hope. So he is just moving on and looking to the next relationship whenever that occurs. I have referred him to this website. I know he at least viewed it. Anyways, dinner tonight should be good.

Anyone having anything good for lunch today? I had a hotdog and walnuts with water.

Kevin
Posted By: Orich Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 05:19 PM
Kevin,
I admire your religeous conviction. I feel the same way. I have made some recent posts about how I am losing patience. I believe it has a lot to do with what you are saying about being apart from W. We still live together, so being apart is difficult. I do well at work, or at the gym, or when she goes out in the evenings. When we are together, that's when I get weak. During those weak times I try to pray and put my depression in His hands. Sometimes it works well, sometimes not.
I'm still praying for you and everyone else here. Please pray for me and W.
Posted By: pigskin Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 05:37 PM
When I feel impatient or anxious, I think this:

GOD DOES NOT PROVIDE STATUS REPORTS

What is needed is trust in Him. Fear is a barrier to trust - something they said at Retrouvaille.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 06:09 PM
Orich, of course I will pray for you and your W. I pray for many M's on this site. You got it man.

Pigskin, that is a good point. Having fear keeps you from not putting your complete and total trust and faith in God. It is a barrier. That is so true.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 06:24 PM
I'm saying a quick prayer right now that 25 doesn't just totally 10X20 me. I don't have a good feeling about it.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 06:30 PM
davidswife is right.

Do you realize why so many people have stopped posting to you? It's because you start something that you don't follow through on. Like your schooling.

"On top of that, alcohol does not have power over me anymore. It used to. It no longer does. It does not control me. I can avoid it with ease now."

It's not the alcohol that had the power over you. It was your dependency on it like a crutch. Addicts tend to go from one addiction to another. So once it wasn't alcohol, it was your W, then when she's gone it's now religion. While religion is a good thing, it is not to be used as another crutch. I'm Roman Catholic, so I know what it's like. But one minute you're talking about God, being a stander, etc. and how you're better than your W for taking the kids to church (and that's what you're doing every time you mention it). Then the next you're backsliding. Go to church because you want to. Period. You don't have to keep mentioning your W when doing so.

Do you realize that the C and the AA meetings would have helped you with that? I think we all knew you weren't going to follow through when you started criticizing the C after just the first interview. You keep switching band aids once you feel that one isn't working right.

Again, there's nothing wrong with being a stander. But do it under the right circumstances. Not because it benefits you but because it benefits your W and your family also.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 06:40 PM
Originally Posted By: stuck808

It's not the alcohol that had the power over you. It was your dependency on it like a crutch. Addicts tend to go from one addiction to another. So once it wasn't alcohol, it was your W, then when she's gone it's now religion. While religion is a good thing, it is not to be used as another crutch. I'm Roman Catholic, so I know what it's like. But one minute you're talking about God, being a stander, etc. and how you're better than your W for taking the kids to church (and that's what you're doing every time you mention it). Then the next you're backsliding. Go to church because you want to. Period. You don't have to keep mentioning your W when doing so.


Once again Stuck. Nicely put. I totally agree.

Like I mentioned 100x on your thread. Manipulation/Guilt is not going to get your WAW back. You becoming the best Kevin you can be for you is the ONLY chance you got. You're putting an awful lot of pressure on God to deliver. God helps those that help themselves. Just because you like what the priest is telling you doesn't mean that you dont have to do your WORK. Like 25 and CG and MANY other have said their are NO SHORTCUTS.

Once you DETACH you will understand.

PMA

Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 06:45 PM
{quote]"On top of that, alcohol does not have power over me anymore. It used to. It no longer does. It does not control me. I can avoid it with ease now."[/quote}

Do you know WHY it did in the first place? THAT is what AA and C are for...you went to ONE meeting there are probably 10 different meetings a day in your area minimum. The problem I see is you seem to be wanting instant gratification which is what all addicts want they don't want to do the work...

God and prayer are great things nobody here would say they aren't but I just see you here in a few weeks not talking about this because you've moved on to the next thing you read about to get your W back. If you stick with this great, I'm happy for you and just remember while God hates D he didn't want us to get married in the first place.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 06:47 PM
Stuck,

I am going to church because I want to. I am taking my kids because I believe it is important for them. I am not saying that I am better than my W. You are more than quick to point out ALL of my past mistakes. How can I even say that I am better than my W? My point was not that I am better than my W. My point was that I am taking a stand for something I believe in since people were saying that I was still trying to please her. I'm saying I am doing this for me and my kids, not for her. It doesn't make me better than her. Its just what I am doing. I am not going to not go just to make her happy. I set a boundary and I am sticking to it regardless of who it pleases or who it doesn't please.

I haven't given up on schooling either. I'm just trying to fix myself right now and do what I need to be doing.

I haven't moved on from my W either. I am just staying out of the way so I don't further screw things up. I very much want her back just like the rest of you want your S's back. But the more I am involved right now, the more damage I do.

Doesn't God say to come to him with your worries, fears, anxiousness, etc? He also wants you to love him and do what he says not for something in return, but because you want to please him. At the same time, God wants to help you with the problems in your life which also requires action on your part as it has been stated on this thread many times.

I grew up in church. It just wasn't the catholic church. So it is not like I just found God or something.

Stuck, what did you have for lunch?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 06:51 PM
VD,

God wanted the earth populated. His was of doing that was inventing marriage. God also said it is not good for man to be alone.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 06:54 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
To answer your questions... No. I am no longer going to AA or counseling. I have been going to a priest each Monday night. I found that looking at things from a spiritual side is much stronger and better.

The 12 step program IS A SPIRITUAL PROGRAM...did you even read the steps? They include an essential "spiritual awakening"...I've heard of people quitting AA b/c it's too religious but your reason ---let's just say it lacks authenticity. And I LOVE the judgmentalism you use on all the "losers" in your group b/c you would NEVER do anything like those horrid people.. therefore you must NOT be an alcoholic...you only lost a wife and job b/c of drinking....you didn't kill anyone, you don't live in the gutter, so you are NOT a problem drinker....Good for you. Great insight.

You know, you were supposed to find a group you
were comfortable with. We all told you this several times. I went to some groups of ALL ex-cons and yes, I did go find another group but not b/c I thought they were losers but b/c I'm a L. ANd I wanted people I had more in common with and so I found a group of doctors and lawyers and teachers ALL with addiction or alcohol problems...we exist....Then I searched some more and went to 6 or 7 til I found a women's group that had more people I felt comfortable with, to take out the gender issues but your tolerance for discomfort is zero...so you quit that...what a slap. You admitted drinking was a huge reason your marriage ended and your wife called you a functioning alcoholic and YOU described yourself as a guy who'd come home and drink and not interact much with the kids and wished they were gone....Which is what functioning alcoholics do, wish others were not around so they can drink or sleep more...or play video games or ignore those they love....and though I am Catholic, I find it curious you chose the ONE church your wife HATES, to start discussions with and taking your girls to...oh the church that doesn't believe in divorce....

I am able to talk with him about stuff and he is helping me out in a few different area's. I felt like I needed spiritual guidance. The AA meeting that I went to really had a lot of screwed up people in it and it seemed like half of the conversation was F this and F that, etc. Just didn't feel like that was somewhere I should be after thinking it over.

Well we know you didn't want to shop around (so time consuming!) or take anyone's advice to find the right group. They are ALL around you! And again, Way to judge others, (super spiritual!!) and you did what ALL the resisters of 12 steps do. (This is right out of the book on addiction, that you didn't read) It's as if you think since You don't cuss, or you have an apartment, ergo, you must not have a "real" problem. What a cliche.

Do You think I felt like "those people" when I went to my first meetings? I tossed my pride at the door and listened to those who had lost more than me and realized, "There but for the Grace of God, go I"....

I was addicted to pain killers but my h did not know, and I was holding down a great job, and mothering my kids pretty well I thought, and I only went to rehab (at the time,) b/c I found out I was pregnant --(and though the painkillers don't cause birth defects, I didn't want to keep taking them and t thought out of caution I should probably do it medically supervised due to the pregnancy...well WHOAH! It was hard as hell to get off those things. When I got to the place, I listened and prayed like never before, and realized, "hey, this is a PROBLEM for real", & I LISTENED and opened my mind and heart and I thank God
for my baby saving my life and my career and probably a lot more.
By the way, I had a truly spiritual awakening there, just like they discuss IN THE 12 STEPS, and THAT was the first, most important spiritual experience I ever had. That's when an active relationship with God began in my life.

Don't talk to me or others about AA or NA not being spiritual b/c it means you missed the single biggest point of the program. And it's a slap in the face of the thousands of recovering addicts/alcoholics who have God in their lives like never before. You missed out on yet another resource, that could have given you joy and insight and created true change within you, but since it was not wrapped the way you wanted it, you turned it away...gee no pattern there


On top of that, alcohol does not have power over me anymore. It used to. It no longer does. It does not control me. I can avoid it with ease now.

BS. I pray that I am wrong but I know something about this. And I do pray I'm wrong but in mho, You will relapse. In fact, I bet anything you already are drinking again, but b/c you have not yet gotten drunk again, or you are "only having a few" you think you have learned to control it. Do you know how 85% of relapses start? Like that.... You know nothing of recovery or the disease. And It shows.

I did meet with my priest again last night and that seems to be helping me. I am reading a lot and listening to sermons, etc. Just because I had a down day or 2 doesn't mean I have turned back into the old Kevin. I'm doing fine today.

CG, I know that W is seething because she detests the catholic church and has made no secret of it to me many times and she also threatened months ago to give me problems with the kids if I took them to mass. So I am not speculating on that one. I know firmly where she stands on that.

Like I said earlier,- in gest about your wife but seriously to you,- what theological research did you do to that caused you to choose Catholicism? Are you taking a Jesuit approach? Are you more of a Paulinian, how do you feel about liberation theology? Are you a pre-Vatican II Catholic, or post Vatican II? I think your choice of going to Mass IS DIRECTLY RELATED TO YOUR WIFE.

Look, who am I to judge? But as a Catholic I would love to think your choice stemmed from some deep, reflective intellectual search over time, with lots of profound reading of Augustine and Aquinas and John Paul II, along with a strong Protestant theologian, like CS Lewis, to counter balance, and of course some soulful inward searching within, prayers, to find where your beliefs truly lay --- but somehow....geez, that is not what's coming to mind....


I'm not sure what I am doing to try and impress her. My stand for the church I am going to is not to impress her. I know how much she is against it.

yeah... See above

Ok, yes, lifting weights would be to try and make myself more attractive to her. I don't see a problem there as DBing tells us to make ourselves more attractive to our S. That is just one of the ways in which I can do that. And I will get some health benefits out of it anyways.

Stuck808, whether or not I was wondering if she was interested in me is beside the point. I have no intention of taking her up on anything should she be interested in me. It is flattering if she is and the thought had crossed my mind wondering if she is. But nothing will come of it because I am not pursuing it.

Tomato, I'm glad you are getting to go to the prayer tonite with the standers. Thank you for making sure I am included in those prayers.

Everyone say what yall will. This is the path I have chosen.

THEN Why post here? At all? You just flat out told us nothing we say or tell you will change anything meaningful in your life. Sure a few phrases here and there, to help you keep from blurting out your needs again, or how to pursue her less obviously, etc, anything about getting your wife back is really the ONLY THING you have ever responded to. The rest about YOU and YOUR INTERNAL WORK has been for nothing and you just said it yourself out loud. There's nothing we can do to help you. You will do what you want and then tell us "yall can say what yall will".....and you will do what you will do. And waste so much time. Of ours! Nothing I sent to you resonates for more than an hour & Results in no change...


I am focusing on my spiritual side
so we're told...

and yes, I do still pray for my M to be restored. I'm not going to stop praying for that. I also pray that I make the changes needed for myself and my family. I pray for the standers for their M's to be restored as well as many M's on DBing. I do things with friends. I avoid situations now that could put me in a tempting situation.
I try to put my faith in God as much as possible. It doesn't mean I don't have bad days or wonder if anything will ever change.

But I really try to stick to the core things of the church the more I learn.

((Sigh)

I feel like I am finally finding the right path for me through the church and through the standers. I still need a hobby besides poker. I am working on that one. Dancing is becoming one of those hobbies. That is fun.

I fully expect to get 2X4's but that is ok. I am comfortable with my stance.

Kevin


2 x 4s??...WHY? What's the point?
And you not getting c after one visit is really odd. Guess You just come here for it? See, if you go to a c, they'll expect you to what they ask or they won't keep seeing you. You come here and then ignore us unless it seems to help you with your wife - or passing time til she comes back--you ignore us too.. Nothing about thte CG methods of thought stopping were noted by you, or the other 100 ideas you've been given about resources, most questions don't get answered if they reveal you quitting again...The stubborness is almost pathological...and thanks for telling us NOW that you are not getting C or going to any more meetings... Do you feel you have been very honest here with us? [/b]


True you have made incremental progress at a glacial speed, and you only make 90% of the same mistakes you made months ago, and once a week you talk about theology - or your wife- to a priest, so you now don't need any c? Really? Did the priest tell you that and did you show him any of the 1000s' of posts you wrote here or that were given to you? Does he KNOW YOU? If so, then Kevin, you don't need to come here either do you?

Now Some would argue you need a lot more than c. But you won't get any, so why argue it? Besides, You quit everything that makes you uncomfortable. Oh, good thing you are working on the spiritual thing.

B/c you judged the c you met ONE TIME quite critically, like you judged those at the ONE AA meeting you attended, no doubt with an open heart and mind, and sometimes you judge your wife and her family or friends the same way...

So...that's that. As you like to say "Yall do what yall will"....well, same to you kevin. You know, we deserved better from you after the months of holding your hand, and repeating ourselves til we're blue in the face, yeah, we deserved real honesty and real effort. You know, the HARD stuff Not denial, and an "arms crossed' attitude of "You can't make me!" which is how I feel you are behaving now. Just my take on it of course. And I do pray I'm wrong about you. Guess time will tell.


j-

PS I never said crying was weak. I simply asked you why you'd apologize for something about your interaction with your wife the other day. I asked if you had cried b/c I could not imagine what it was you 'd apologize for when she picked up the kids...whatever.
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 06:56 PM
Not really Kevin, what basically said was if you can't keep it in your pants get married...From Paul's letters to the Corinthians

1Corinthians 7

1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.[a] 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.

8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 07:12 PM
"You are more than quick to point out ALL of my past mistakes."

That's because those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it. And everyone here, not just me, have shown how you haven't changed as a whole.

"How can I even say that I am better than my W?"

See? I NEVER said that. I mentioned that you are implying it. Go back and read your own post. I said if you want to go to church for you, great, you just don't have to mention your W not liking it.

And even still, go back to how you talked about the AA meeting you went to with all the "losers" there. Tell me that's not being judgmental. That's how you're coming across and that's why I said you "sound" like you're acting better than your W.

Do you actually read anything here?

"Doesn't God say to come to him with your worries, fears, anxiousness, etc? He also wants you to love him and do what he says not for something in return, but because you want to please him. At the same time, God wants to help you with the problems in your life which also requires action on your part as it has been stated on this thread many times."

I think you need to tattoo this on your arm. You are throwing this back at me? Really? Go back to your post about how you stopped C and AA and tell me about taking action.

I don't even need to go into the 2x4's. 25mlc's post says it all.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 07:24 PM
VD,

I am aware of that verse also. But how else was God going to populate the world in a spiritually acceptable way other than M. But ok. Thats cool. It does say that to.

25,

I was fully expecting to get blasted when I answered those questions. More speculation on my part. I did go to 2 C visits and I guess I assumed that I didn't need AA after going to that meeting since alcohol is no longer an issue for me.

As far as Catholic goes, you couldn't be more wrong. I did not go there because of my W detesting it. I actually grew up with my mom being church of christ and my dad being a traditional catholic. You can imagine the disagreements that occured because of that while growing up. My sister is catholic. Her husband is catholic. Her husbands sister is catholic. My dad's favorite saints are St. Jerome and Padre Pio I believe was his name. I have had many catholic discussions for years with my dad and my sister and her husband and his sister. But I always blew it off. I finally started looking at what they were saying some time back and the more I looked at it the more they were starting to convince me that there really is truth to it. They were able to explain their love of the faith and where they were getting it from. I had just rejected it for so many years because of my mom taking us to Church of Christ churches. Since my W left, they have all been talking to me more and showing me more and I have been agreeing with what they have been showing me. I started going to a traditional latin mass while in Florida with my dad. I asked many questions about it. I still have much to learn.

So no, I didn't just pick the catholic church out of the blue. And it had nothing to do with my W. It has been around me all my life. I just finally decided to start paying attention to what the rest of my family was saying about it when I felt like I had no where else to turn.

I didn't say the people in AA were losers. I said they were screwed up in the meeting that I was at and yes, I felt uncomfortable there. I thought wow, if this is what these meetings are like, I'm not sure. And yes, I had much more reason to be thankful for my situation after walking out of that meeting.

I'm not above those people or better than them. I guess I just felt like somehow they were different and different circumstances than me. It was AA for alcohol and drug users.

I did not mean to offend anyone, I just fully expected to get hammered left and right once I answered. Saying that I am comfortable with my stance is simply saying that I like the direction things are going with the exception of my W not being with me. Everything else is going better.

When I said yall say what you will, it was really me just getting prepared to get totally slammed.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 07:29 PM
Oh yes and I had a very nice steak sandwich today. Thank you for asking. : )
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 08:00 PM
Somehow I had that feeling this wasn't going to go well when I had to answer those questions. I looked at it first this morning and I was thinking "great, I am going to get so blasted for this no matter what I say". Thats why I didn't answer first thing this morning.

Kevin
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 08:50 PM
k4d,

Wow it hurt just to read this. Man you have to make some serious changes.

How did the guy act that your wife married (you back in 97)? How does the Kevin of today act compared with the Kevin your wife fell in love with? My advice would be to act more like him.

It seems you have great difficulty being in the presence of your wife. Perhaps you should have her drop the kids off at an intermediary’s’ house and you can pick them up without seeing her. Perhaps it is time for you to go dark and remove yourself from her life totally. What you are doing isn't working. I'd get a new plan. Google Plan B along with marriage and read about it.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 09:21 PM
I'm not really sure what I am doing wrong in my M anymore. I leave my W alone. I do what I want with my time. I am working on my faith. I am picking up dancing. I am trying to have a social life. I talk with the priest once a week. I spend time with my girls. Last night I defended myself going to the mass because of her feelings towards it, but that was all.

I feel like I am doing better. I am still taking medication. Infact I am eating better. I think I am probably up to 200 pounds now versus 195 pounds. I need to start lifting weights this week. I am trying to encourage other people to work on their marriages and DB even though I backslide.

Yes, it is hard to be in front of my W. What was I like back in 97? W says I had issues back then but she just thought I would grow out of them. I'm not sure what made her fall in love with me. It could be that she was so miserable in her situation I was an out for her. We used to have great conversations that would last for hours. We haven't had those in years. She won't have conversations with me anymore. I was a lot more confident and much stronger back then. But I also had my weak moments then to. We talked online and the phone for the first 3 months before we met. Then after that is was a lot of ML more than anything. Then she got pregnant. Then we got married. Life started. I worked jobs I could find and she did to. For the longest time we were getting by on next to nothing. We worked our way up over time. But with my drinking, other problems grew and I had never really addressed them. She finally got fed up, fell for another guy at work, and so far the rest has been downhill.

Through the years I learned how to grill some great Tandoori wings and make some good pizzas. I love experimenting with foods.

My 2 daughters needed a father which they have now. My W needed a strong H and didn't have one as time went on. I am trying to be strong again. But right now it doesn't matter to her. The famous WAW line "It's to little to late".

Therefore I stand and work on things and pray for a future with her. I try to find what works for me. I have told her I would love to do the things with her that interest her to no avail because that was one of her complaints. She thinks she is much smarter than me and just can't be with someone not as intelligent as her. These are the latest anyways.

Today she IM'd me asking if I had plans tonite. I said yes. She said ok, nevermind then. I didn't respond back after that.

It is kind of rainy outside today. I need to call my girls tonight and say hi to them and tell them I love them.

I am having mexican food tonight at a restaurant that is in Dallas now that me and W used to eat at when we started out in Tyler, TX. It will be strange but I will be with a friend and I am looking forward to the food and company.

Nobody in AA is a loser and I never said that. But you know what, you are right in that who am I to say they are screwed up without looking at myself first. I wouldn't be where I am if I didn't make a bunch of stupid mistakes myself. Honestly though I did not feel comfortable there in that meeting. I went to a different one that was similar and walked out of that one before it really got started after seeing and hearing the people there.

I think I felt uncomfortable talking about my spiritual beliefs with the C as how it would relate into all of this. I guess I felt like the priest was a better way to go. I just didn't see the C pulling the 2 together to help me out.

I am very happy to be part of a standers group and to have the help and support on this site and to be part of the church that I am part of now. I am making friends and that is great.

I do pray multiple times a day and I am really trying to build on that.

I knew I was going to get ripped to peices today for changing course again. But this is one I intend to stay on. There isn't anything more important than this one. If you don't have God, you have nothing.

Kevin
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 09:39 PM
Kevin,

Don't give up the church if it gives you comfort. Stop trying to appease your wife it won't work.

Lifting weights might help with your mood. I run. A lot. It really helps me, just a thought.

Your wife married you for a reason. Don't let her rewrite your history. If I were you, I would seriously try to rediscover how you acted around her then.

Finally, if it is too emotional seeing her, then you should really try to arrange things so that you don't have physical interactions. It isn't helping you Kevin.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 09:40 PM
Kev, There is nothing wrong with "Standing" for what you believe in. As long as you are doing it for YOU. The only way it will be about you is YOU stop talking to your WAW about any of it. Just talk to her about the girls and thats it. Just WORK on becoming the best version of yourself that you can. You need to forget about her having anything to do with your HAPPINESS. If you get served tomorrow you would melt. You need to build your self and your LIFE up so that CANT happen.

You are being a great father to you girls. Keep it hope and rejoice in that. Now take care of yourself like you are your girls. Which CANT have anything to do with your STBX.

Nice job on telling her you had plans. She was probably looking to USE you again to watch the girls. Hold your ground and she MIGHT start to RESPECT you. Do it with KINDNESS though.

PMA
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 09:48 PM
PMA's right.

And besides, why do you keep anticipating that you are going to get 2x4's here? It's obvious you know when you're doing something wrong, but do it any way and come here to get "punished" or "validated".
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 10:03 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D



I am having mexican food tonight at a restaurant that is in Dallas now that me and W used to eat at when we started out in Tyler, TX.



I'm familiar with it...Posado's! It used to be called La Posada in Tyler, and I believe the same people also had El Mercardo in Tyler also...and it's still there.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/21/09 10:47 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I'm not really sure what I am doing wrong in my M anymore. I leave my W alone. I do what I want with my time. I am working on my faith. I am picking up dancing. I am trying to have a social life. I talk with the priest once a week. I spend time with my girls. Last night I defended myself going to the mass because of her feelings towards it, but that was all.

I feel like I am doing better. I am still taking medication. Infact I am eating better. I think I am probably up to 200 pounds now versus 195 pounds. I need to start lifting weights this week. I am trying to encourage other people to work on their marriages and DB even though I backslide.

Yes, it is hard to be in front of my W. What was I like back in 97? W says I had issues back then but she just thought I would grow out of them. I'm not sure what made her fall in love with me. It could be that she was so miserable in her situation I was an out for her. We used to have great conversations that would last for hours. We haven't had those in years. She won't have conversations with me anymore. I was a lot more confident and much stronger back then. But I also had my weak moments then to. We talked online and the phone for the first 3 months before we met. Then after that is was a lot of ML more than anything. Then she got pregnant. Then we got married. Life started. I worked jobs I could find and she did to. For the longest time we were getting by on next to nothing. We worked our way up over time. But with my drinking, other problems grew and I had never really addressed them. She finally got fed up, fell for another guy at work, and so far the rest has been downhill.

Through the years I learned how to grill some great Tandoori wings and make some good pizzas. I love experimenting with foods.

My 2 daughters needed a father which they have now. My W needed a strong H and didn't have one as time went on. I am trying to be strong again. But right now it doesn't matter to her. The famous WAW line "It's to little to late".

Therefore I stand and work on things and pray for a future with her. I try to find what works for me. I have told her I would love to do the things with her that interest her to no avail because that was one of her complaints. She thinks she is much smarter than me and just can't be with someone not as intelligent as her. These are the latest anyways.

Today she IM'd me asking if I had plans tonite. I said yes. She said ok, nevermind then. I didn't respond back after that.

It is kind of rainy outside today. I need to call my girls tonight and say hi to them and tell them I love them.

I am having mexican food tonight at a restaurant that is in Dallas now that me and W used to eat at when we started out in Tyler, TX. It will be strange but I will be with a friend and I am looking forward to the food and company.

Nobody in AA is a loser and I never said that. But you know what, you are right in that who am I to say they are screwed up without looking at myself first. I wouldn't be where I am if I didn't make a bunch of stupid mistakes myself. Honestly though I did not feel comfortable there in that meeting. I went to a different one that was similar and walked out of that one before it really got started after seeing and hearing the people there.

I think I felt uncomfortable talking about my spiritual beliefs with the C as how it would relate into all of this. I guess I felt like the priest was a better way to go. I just didn't see the C pulling the 2 together to help me out.

I am very happy to be part of a standers group and to have the help and support on this site and to be part of the church that I am part of now. I am making friends and that is great.

I do pray multiple times a day and I am really trying to build on that.

I knew I was going to get ripped to peices today for changing course again. But this is one I intend to stay on. There isn't anything more important than this one. If you don't have God, you have nothing.

Kevin


I did not "rip you apart" at all. NO ONE ripped you for having religious beliefs. NO ONE... I pointed out the hypocrisy and judgementalism in your words, while you are simultaneously claiming that you are on a spiritual journey.

And you missed out on the biggest part of AA/NA. It was your judgementalism that caused you to miss out on it. And you must not really read our posts. I am a L and went to a group mostly of ex-con's more than once, before moving on to find one with more women and or more people I felt comfortable with b/c as a L, several people there wanted me to represent them and I was NOT there to get business.....But the first person to reach out to me in a meaningful way, was a convicted felon. And as I said, the first meetings I attended were mostly court ordered folks or ex cons...so there I am, a L, at meetings with people I may have prosecuted or defended in the past....
Can you reflect for one minute about that? Do you see how dizzying that was for me? PREGNANT...Talk about UNCOMFORTABLE...

I learned a lot about humility, mankind, and myself that day. Wouldn't trade it for anything. I did toss out my pride and took help from whomever. I accepted help from "the least of my brothers" I'm sorry you made yourself miss out on such a rich experience.


Nor am I bashing you for going to Catholic church, (hardly) but I DO have to wonder about your timing and constant references to your w's disagreements about it. And why you think you are getting ripped for religion? Come on, now you are a victim of religious persecution here too? Would you really mind terribly if your w took them to a Lutheran Church, since she's taking them nowhere now?

I've told my older kids to feel free do their own search; and talk about it with me I hope, and while I hope they stay mainstream and preferably, Catholic, all I really ask is that join what feels most loving to them, and that they not join a church that bashes others... I highly recommend Blue Like Jazz for you, (sigh, AGAIN, since God knows I've said it 10 times before.)

Your w takes them nowhere now correct? SO if she takes them somewhere, that'd be better, right? Or are we going to say "Better NO GOD than a Protestant one?" Hope not.

And yes I do take offense at your characterization of the 12 steps, the people there. The way you described your c struck me as arrogant. I don't recall if you finished college, but that guy wants to get a PhD in helping people like us and you, and your comment was all about how young he was, and inexperienced, and I had to wonder, if there was a tad of insecurity or resentment somewhere in there. I'm no shrink. But the resentment was there somehow I felt it....Won't pretend to mind read your though....

But I cannot help but note so much resistance to the real work that needs to be done and the repetitive nature of your mistakes which are related to your internal issues. & as much as I have admired many of my Professor Priests, I cannot imagine one Priest being able to help you with problems that include saying "I never was happy before meeting wife" b/c "I don't know how to be happy", and how "can I learn not to be so emotional with her" or how to control your thought process, and you don't know how to hold your tongue, AND you want to write to your w "one more time" or ask her to go this workshop and what if this? And what if THAT? And job advice for career stuff and not drinking again--oh wait, you fixed that b/c you havent' been drunk in ...awhile...Oh, and also be there to explore your theological interests. That's a lot for any priest and I'm bettine there are other parishoners...

Is it possible that the easy stuff is talking to a priest about God, and how He'll reunite you with w, and NOT look at the rest of that unpleasant stuff? Isn't it possible that this is what is really going on, and if you want to call this feedback getting "ripped apart" you are making yourself out to be a victim.

And saying that you wanted to tell us the truth about the AA meetings and quitting the c too, but knew you'd get "attacked" or whatever, is what liars say when they tell their spouses "I would have told you but you'd get mad..." yeah, they're right that others get mad. Does not make the witholding of truth right though, does it? It's what people who lie say Kevin. Don't justify it. Not to us. Not here. Now if that's a 2 x 4, so be it. If you want to pretend the 2 x 4 is about religion, you are deluding yourself. It's about the lying. And it's not really a 2 x 4. I think it's calling it like it is.

You ignored advice which is FINE, but you pretended to take it and then didnt' tell anyone when you quit, even when you were asked repeatedly how things were going at the meetings or the c? You said NOTHING about quitting 'til today and for me THAT"S a deal breaker. (All you ever said about the c, was the criticism of the c, and something positive about the AA meeting or called it "interesting"...but then at those pesky meetings they DO expect you to eventually admit you have a problem but since you don't....they could not possibly help you.)

What Elizabeth Edwards said about wasting her time trying to regain what cannot ever be the same again, and spending time/energy on that pursuit, and how wasteful it was for her, and is her biggest regret...you said it resonated with you..I wish I knew how.

j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 03:49 AM
25,

I didn't say I was being religiously persecuted. That thought didn't cross my mind. I knew I was going to get ripped into for not continuing with the AA or C. I'm not a victim either. I made a concious choice on my own. And I knew that once I brought it up, I was going to hear about it. That doesn't mean I am a victim. It just means I knew what was coming.

I can very much understand how uncomfortable you felt being pregnant and a L in that type of situation with excons. I had quite a few of those in my meeting.

I talked to the priest some about my M, but that is not the majority of it. Infact, it is very little of our conversations. He is more interested in me becoming catholic and making sure my soul is good than anything. He just also happens to have great insight to other things being obviously who he is and what he does.

If my W takes my kids to church. Great. At least they are learning about God. Where ever she takes them is fine with me. I would prefer them to go somewhere as opposed to nowhere. If she wants to take them back to the church we used to go to, then great. If she wants to take them somewhere else, then great also.

I'm not looking to a priest to reunite me with my W. I am looking to God for that. I had huge concerns and still do about being at the church knowing it is a huge brick between us. But I just feel like that is where I should be.

And no, neither me nor my W finished college. We just worked our way up in the real world.

Elizabeth Edwards resonated with me in that she is right. The more time you spend dwelling on what could have been or not moving on with life, the more time you waste away your life. One day you will look back and regret it if you never moved on and started enjoying your life while you had it.

Antlers,

I am truly impressed that you figured that out about the restaurant. What are the odds? Do you live around here?

I had a great time tonight there. It was with a group of friends from the divorce support group I have been going to and still am going to. We are going to get together one night and I am going to teach them poker and we are planning a bowling night and some other stuff. They asked me to give them my schedule so they could try and plan things around it. I'm looking forward to it. The group itself is meeting again this Friday and I am signed up to be there again. I have gone to a few of the get togethers with this group and the people are really great.

Stuck,

I just know certain things I am going to get a 2x4 for after they happen.

PMA,

I am working on being better and I do try to make sure I am kind in every interaction I have with my W. Once in a while I get frusturated when she harps on something. But overall I am very kind to her.

Esox,

I am trying to think about the ways I was different then versus later years and now. I do need to get my swagger back.

Well, its been a good night. I am ready to turn in. I have more praying to do and I obviously need to ask for forgiveness for my day.

I can certainly admit one thing. I am definitely not perfect.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 01:44 PM
Well, its wednesday. I am hoping for a blessed day today.

Kevin
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 01:48 PM
Kevin,

Quote:
I am hoping for a blessed day today.



No, MAKE it a blessed day. Whether it is or not is up to YOU.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 02:03 PM
This is the day that the Lord has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 02:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Tomato
It appears I will be quite blessed tonight to attend our NE standers mtg in NY (which I fairly infrequently get to go to cuz of my work schedule requiring me to take time to make the long drive ..oh but it is soooo worth it)
Ted


Where? What is the group called? I want to Google it.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 03:00 PM
It just seems to me you are locked so tightly in your own mindset and "your way" that you are really missing out on some opportunities that can really help you.

Talk to your priest all you like, attend church daily... faith of any kind is important. But it seems to me you are relying on your faith and God to restore things as long as you believe. And belief is good, hope is good... what would life be if we didnt have it? Honestly though praying is easy because nobody "talks back" to you. Its all your own thoughts.

You seem to think we are pointing out your past mistakes when in fact we are pointing out your past patterns. When things get tough you run. Things got touch so you ran to Florida. Your C'ing was going to force you to do some work and examine yourself so you dropped that. AA wasnt right for you because you dont think you have a drinking problem.

People have drinking problems because they are looking for an escape. While drinking may no longer tempt you, the need to escape for you is still very present.

I just dont see why you wont even visit the idea of incorporating some type of solution based C'ing in with the spiritual C'ing you are getting from your church. IMO that would be win-win for you.

When the going gets tough you bolt. And that means there is something inside yourself you cant face. Rebuilding your faith and the R with the church you feel most comfortable in is important but so is finding solutions to your destructive patterns and I am not so sure the church is the place to go for that.

You assumed w/o even asking that your C'ing wouldnt understand or support your need to have spiritual C'ing along w/his counseling. Did you ask him his thoughts on the matter or did you just judge and assume?

You are very judgemental - the job you got wasnt good enough, it was boring and now what you had in mind but a few weeks later you were saying you could not keep up. You judged your C based on his age. You judged AA because it wasnt filled with the kind of people you thought it would be. You never attempted any of the suggestions we made. So, no, its not about pointing out your mistakes its about pointing out patterns.

Priests rely on the spiritual side to rebuild you but honestly they do not have the training to offer you the tools for solution based therapy.

And I must say I am stunned you are still on medication and not seeing a psych./C of any kind. Again, its the quick fix mantra.

Stand for your marriage all you want but while you are doing that you need to be fixing you and you are not doing that. You jump from thing to thing without giving it a chance. I mean, a few weeks ago you were talking about meeting women more than once and now you are a stander. Yes, we are all on an emotional roller coaster but yours should be a bit more even by now.

I urge you to combine whatever spiritual C'ing you are getting with some sort of solution based therapy. There really is nothing more to say.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 03:24 PM
Okay, Kevin - I managed to get caught up with the many pages of posts. I will keep it simple and just put some bullets that are easy to follow:

* You are happy with the way things are going except that your wife isn't with you.

* You stopped AA and C that YOU NEED (in addition to your spiritual growth)

* You are losing the benefits of self-reflection and growth that both would gain you

* Without the self-reflection and growth your wife will not give you a chance

* You are guaranteeing yourself a D and may as well file yourself, right now

* If you don't want a D you will find an AA meeting and C you are more comfortable with

* You will understand that you can anticipate the 2x4's because you know you are doing something wrong

* You can fight FOR your marriage by doing the hard work and taking it like a man

* Stop fighting everyone and insisting on doing things your way

* Your way got you where you are and I want better for you

I really want better for you!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 03:52 PM
How do you find an AA meeting that is not full of excons? Something that has corporate people in it?

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 03:58 PM
Shop around. I am from a fairly rural area, and there are 18 AA meeting places in our county.

Also, don't be so picky. Who knows how your faith might help an ex-con?

BTW- You are going to be uncomfortable at any meeting the first time.
Posted By: GoBison Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 03:58 PM
Kevin,

I have never posted to you before but have read most of your Sitch. Which was good for me because now I know what not to do. Going to church and reconnecting with your Religion is excellent. I have been a practicing Catholic my whole life. But God does not do the work for you. You can go and pray all day long and if that is the only thing you do it will not work. God gives us the tools and the guidance to do what we need to do but we still need to do the work. Come on man you really need to man up.

I rarely post to anyone else on here because I am still new and don't want to give wrong advice but I do know that your W will not see you in any good light if you continue to do what you are doing. Get back to counseling to control your emotions and find stability. Get back to AA so that you have some more direction in your life. At least going to AA will give you something to do. Talk to a Priest about things good. Be good to your kids and enjoy the time you have with them. When they are gone don't concentrate on them not being around work on things that you can do and what you have control at that time.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 04:14 PM
Again - living in your box. The meeting is for YOU and you seem to be so worried about the image of the other people. Are you any better than them because you have never committed a felony? Are corp. people somehow more acceptable to be around in AA?

Did you ever stop to think you could learn something from an ex con? This is the problem in society - people make mistakes and when they try and turn their life around they are judged by people like you. They served their time and now they are out to rectify their passed mistakes but somehow you just cant see the good in that. All you see is an ex con. Maybe all the ex cons see in you is somebody that bolted, cant stick to anything and judges people based on their past. Ever think of that?

Addictions dont just happen to losers and ex cons - addictions can happen to ANYBODY.

I really cant believe you asked that. What if we said to you... do you know of a divorce busting message board that doesnt have somebody that is needy and refuses to take any solid and stable advice and that can at least give *something* a chance? How would you feel?

I hope you talk to your priest about your judgement issues because no matter what the situation, even if in your own subtle way, you find a way to judge anything that may help you.

Had my dad gone to AA maybe he would not have died at the age of 58. Maybe he would have found some strength and direction... but he was too weak, too scared and it wasnt for him because he wasnt like "those people". Look how far that got him. Now me and my sister are w/o a father for the rest of our lives and I can assure you the death he died was a slow and painful one because I watched it. Watching your own dad take his last breath because he REFUSED to get help or even try and help himself or take help that was offered to him for TEN years isnt something I wish on anybody.

You are no better than an ex con and neither am I. Instead of viewing an ex con as a negative, shine some positive on what they are trying to do - get help and turn their lives around. What a damn concept, no?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 04:19 PM
Didn't 25 say that she tried to find a group that was more in line with her circumstances and the type of people she associated with?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 04:33 PM
I am going to pick up "Codependent No More" on CD tonight and start listening to it. I find it easier to sit back and listen to audio books than to read. When I read, my mind starts to waunder through the words.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 05:06 PM
I see "Blue Like Jazz" is on CD also. Nice.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 05:17 PM
Again - you are deflecting back to what 25 did. And you are not addressing what was posted to you. 25 also listed some valid reasons as to why she "shopped" for a group. There are many valid reasons to "shop" for a support group, support meeting or C. Yours just seem to be a bit judgemental and that does seem to be a pattern of yours. Because somebody is not like you it doesnt mean you cant learn from each other.

An ex-con made a mistake, paid the price and now is trying to change their lives. One day you will be an ex-husband. Does that mean you are unworthy of being in a group for CURRENT husbands because somehow they are better than you? No.

You just dont seem to give anything a chance that is not firmly rooted in your comfort zone or how you think things *should* be.

This isnt about 25, its about you. Stop comparing your patterns and actions to others, this is about YOU.
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 05:20 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D

Antlers,

I am truly impressed that you figured that out about the restaurant. What are the odds? Do you live around here?


Not anymore, but I used to. I used to eat at La Posada and El Mercardo all the time. Now, whenever we're in Texas, we go to Posado's!
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 05:23 PM
K4d,

Find some different meetings. Go to one in a posh part of town if you want to be with professionals. Try a bunch of different ones. If then you think AA isn't for you then try something else. People get sober without AA. AA doesn’t even exist in some nations and some people find a way to quit drinking destructively. You could try Secular Sobriety, Lifering is another, Rational Recovery is a third. Some of these have online meetings. Google alcohol recovery like I just did.

Also, there are a lot of different types of counseling. Why don't you try a different flavor? It may help you to talk with a live human being about these issues.

Finally, I think a Priest could be a wonderful resource for your spiritual concerns, but I guess I would rather speak with someone that has a successful marriage about marriage problems. It would just seem weird to me to ask advice from someone that really has no idea what it feels like to be in a marriage. He may know intellectually, he may have read a lot about the subject, but it is a different thing all together to have known what it feels like to be in the most intimate relationship that humans can have. I've known pain in my life, but somehow nothing can affect me the way my marriage can. I want to talk to someone that knows what that strife feels like first hand. But that is just me.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 07:44 PM
I am looking up books on audio that have been recommended to me. I also ordered the new testament on CD. My focus seems to last much longer when I listen than when I read.

I am learning that about myself.

25, I am going to get "Blue Like Jazz" on CD and listen to it. Hopefully this will be another good step in the right direction.

I also found "Five Languages Of Love" on CD. And I am getting "Codependent No More" on CD. I can listen to these at work during the day. I'm thinking it is a good start. I didn't find "No More Mr. Nice Guy" on CD. But I am getting some stuff together.

I am looking at different AA meetings also. I need to go to a new comers meeting that starts out with the program from beginning to end.

Actually when I talked to the priest about my M, he completely understood where my W was coming from. He didn't defend the morality aspect of it, but understood the mindset of her. He is quite insightful.

There is also a software program called JAWS for the blind that makes everything on the computer audio that my BIL and his sister use. It is $900, but I am just more of an audio and visual person that a text reader. It could be well worth it for extremely long articles and pages, etc on the computer.

Good stuff. I am still going to my divorce support group and we are meeting again on Friday. I have not quit that one. It is a really good group.

I still get together with FaithfulH now and then and he is truly a blessing to me.

See, I am putting things together. And overall I have been doing better regardless of what some may think. I have stuff going on.

I didn't eat lunch today. I need to lose a few pounds again and get back to 195.

I get my kids tomorrow night. I am hanging out with a friend tonight. We are just going to go to the park and walk around and chat. He has been through 2 divorces. One was his choosing, the 2nd was not.

I still stand for my M. But I am trying to do it in a detaching way.

I do want to make sure that I am not using God as a crutch. I admit that is probably a struggle for me. But I do have faith in him.

VD,

The bible does also say that a man will leave his family and a W will leave hers and the 2 will become one flesh and let no man separate what God has joined. That would include a judge. It is only legal, not spiritual when it comes from a judge.

I continue to stand for my M. But at the same time do for me.

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 08:22 PM
In a past post, I think you mentioned listening to your books at work? Is that a good idea? Please don't do anything that would jeapordize your job.

Stacy
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 08:24 PM
Quote:
The bible does also say that a man will leave his family and a W will leave hers and the 2 will become one flesh and let no man separate what God has joined. That would include a judge. It is only legal, not spiritual when it comes from a judge.


No argument from me but the Bible does acknowledge D and what one should or shouldn't do once D...I don't want anyone here to get a D and what you do is up to you. You want to stand for your M forever, as long as you GAL, great for you, really I mean that. If you spend the rest of your life with your eyes on God it will be a great life, no matter what.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/22/09 10:40 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
How do you find an AA meeting that is not full of excons? Something that has corporate people in it?

Kevin


You do some looking and researching yourself....Geez how can you be this UNresourceful? I really hate how this dynamic has evolved, b/c I feel like a bitch when I post to you this way, but it's like you need me or someone, usually a woman, to be this way or you won't get it. Almost like you want a verbal spanking, Seriously. You are a grown man who should not need an angry mommy helping him with his late homework again...and I don't want to be an angry mommy with my own kids, let alone with you. I dislike this dynamic intensely. So it ends with this post.

And What kind of a question are you even asking? Maybe you should show these posts to your priest friend.

Do you think I just dialed 411 and said, "Hi, I'm a PROFESSIONAL person, and so, I want an AA/NA group with smart successful people like ME, so I can only see the winners who already "beat this thing" and not be dragged down by those...'other people still struggling and oh by the way, how can I tell the difference between THEM and ME??'"...???

First off, THERE BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD, GO I...AND YOU....Did you ever wonder where someone who gets a DUI might be sent by the court? Often, it is to court ordered AA meetings.... So is it really incredible or impossible to you to think you might have someday landed there yourself? Or known someone you care about, who could land there?

I was given prescription medication for pain, and drove a car, more than once. Never hit anyone, but I could have, and that could have ended my life or another's, and I could have had my children in the car with me. So I could have killed or hurt the people who mean the most to me.

And it is to my shame that I only realized this at a meeting. I heard a man at a meeting who mentioned that although he didn't drink often, when he drank, he could on occasion become difficult about releasing his keys to another person, partly b/c he LOVED his beautiful car. So one night, he felt fine enough to drive home, really he did, and witnesses said he seemed a "little buzzed but definitely NOT DRUNK", and he drove home after a few beers, just a tad over the legal limit. He lost his focus for a second or two, and hit a car that was a tad close to his lane but that he could have avoided if he had been more alert, and in that car was a family, consisting of a mother, father and 9 y/o daughter, and the mother and daughter were killed, though not instantly...This man at the meeting had ended a FAMILY and deeply wounded his own, along with the many many people who knew those whom he had killed and he wounded many who loved HIM. HE may not have been an alcoholic, but he went to AA for 3 years as assigned, after he served 9 months in jail for manslaughter. ( thereby making him now "an ex-con" and, also, a former pharmacist as a manslaughter conviction there cost him his liveliehood, and the lawsuits in civil court cost him a lake home, and God knows what his own family went through with his kids being taunted in school and the level of shame...but I don't see him as a loser or someone with whom I could not share a common interest. In fact, he was among the most morally sound and honest men I have ever met).

I never heard him complain that he didn't need the meetings though he rarely drank before and he sure didn't anymore...Was he an alcoholic? I'm not an addition doctor or expert, but I know HE needed those meetings for many reasons, including lessening the chances of a recurrence in case he did have a drinking problem or became tempted to have one...which I could see.

Second, as to finding suitable groups, if you were seeing a psych or C then he/she could tell you which group would be the best fit, so the "hunt" would be easier for you, but you'd have to see a c for that and you aren't doing that either...(SIGH...always somehow so hard for you) maybe check for a group of "newly single men" or those going through difficult family issues...just one more idea.

So you call AA in the phone book (they are listed) and ask around for "men only" groups, and or you can ask for groups like "engineers anon" or any professional group solely for those in that field, with addiction issues. Most professions have support groups, doctors do, atheletes do, lawyers and teachers do. You can also ask your priest if the Church has meetings there, as most do, or know of them, as do local hospitals & clinics, and YOU can even anonomously call your employee assistance person at the company you work in, EVEN though you may not have any benefits, and just ASK them for groups nearby, OR you can ask an addict/alcoholic in recovery, where THEY go....the more likely the members are to be employed the less likely you'll be uncomfortable. Sure there are places I didn't feel great, if it were made up of dangerous looking gang members I would stay at the meeting and listen carefully to see what I could get out of it. If it didn't surprise me, I'd probaly just keep looking. Good grief there are so many kinds and types...

And for the record, of all the groups and meetings I attended, which has to be over a 1000, (started when pregnant working full time with 2 little kids at home, a h and a full time job and demanding avocation and kept going after having the baby.... so don't say you are too busy b/c that's a cop out and it's way too obvious.) Tell that to the neuro surgeon I met at the meetings...but NOT ONCE did I attend a meeting wherein I didn't hear something I REALLY needed to hear. Not once. That's a miracle really. And btw, those are people I met at meetings. Lots of "winners" have this problem...
I attended a meeting wherein most people didn't speak English well enough for me to understand them so sure, I found another meeting place/group. But don't be nearly so quick to judge or dismiss. Some of these ex cons are NOT bad people at all. And some of them WERE, but are not anymore. I'm no bleeding heart, but your cynicism and "spiritual journey" seem to be colliding...

People or men who made mistakes and were caught, sometimes doing things many of us have done or thought of doing, are labelled "ex-cons". Some of these men have lost everything including their self respect and maybe even their manhood, men who cannot go to their mailbox or their driveway for their newspaper, without being pursued by their local pusher trying to tempt them, b/c that's how their neighborhood is...When even these "losers" somehow reached out to someone like me, driving my "important person" car and wearing clothes that cost more than they earn in a week, and HELPED ME!! or comforted me b/c I was crying...well then, I'm learning something valuable, and spiritual from them. I was blessed with a healthy pregnancy and so much more...Though it was the most difficult & humbling experience of my life at that time, as it turns out it was among the most spiritual and yes, as THE STEPS SAY, I had an awakening that forever changed my life.

The first person to reach out to me, to give me a tissue as I sobbed, was a man just out of prison, who said "It's hardest the first time you say it out loud, even to yourself". Boy was that the truth...

Kevin did you EVER drive after a beer or two, and did you EVER have the kids in your car? Can't you see that "there but for the Grace of God, go you..."?

Not drinking isn't really listed in the steps, per se. It is a given. As you must have heard 383 times now, "Recovery isn't about simply not drinking....
It is a program for LIFE."

If you actually looked at the 12 steps you'll see things like; taking a fearless moral inventory of yourself, (though I think it's terrifying), write down the wrongs you commited and share them with another human being, out loud, identify those to whom you owe amends, [i]and make amends to them, when appropriate....The pharmacist made amends to the father/husband of the people he killed. First in writing to ask to meet in person. They did. For two hours.
[/i]
That "alcoholic recovery" stuff....well, like I said, it's a program for life. It is not for the cowardly or feint of heart, but for brave human beings.....spiritual beings, on the hard road to recovery -- which is about living a life worth living. A life of clarity and honesty and integrity. A life that involves an active R with a higher power, whom some refer to as God. Thanks to the meetings I attended, I have that. I know people who live by the 12 steps who do NOT have drug or alcohol problems but started going to meetings b/c their parents did, or they just liked the concepts.

You have been given a lot of blessings here, more than most. But it seems to me you are at a crossroads of your own making. Good luck on making the right choices, which tend to be the hard choices b/c if the right choice were easy, it would be made without a 2nd thought. It's the tough ones we struggle with. Not the easy ones.

j-
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/23/09 12:01 AM
Out of curiosity, what advice did your priest friend give you?
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/23/09 12:35 AM
I shopped around for different groups b/c 1) I needed to understand the speakers and 2) did not want former clients or defendants I had prosecuted in the same group. 3) as a pregnant woman, I felt vulnerable, so I was more careful than usual and maybe a tad more fearful. But whatever judgment I entered my first meeting with, was tossed out the window with my pride as I humbly asked God to help me.

And God did help me and I had a personal miracle I won't share here b/c it undermines it and I don't want it held up for others to examine or scrutinize, I know what it was and that is enough. I tell you that much only b/c it's wrong to deny when God gives you one. But I was helped via the actions of men I might have put behind bars only a few years earlier.

Don't compare our experiences....unless you want to learn from mine as I learned from theirs...when I say it was the most humbliing experience of my life, I mean it in a good way.

j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/23/09 03:01 AM
Stuck,

The priest said he can understand what made my W do what she did.

I ordered "Codependent No More" on CD tonight. I am going to start listening to it as soon as I get it.

I went out and excercised tonight. It improved my mental outlook afterwards. I was quite ticked off at my W earlier for something. But I worked it out while out excercising.

I was also feeling a little down after 25's post. But I feel better now.

25,

I am not going to compare my circumstances to yours. You seem to get a lot out of the many things you try in life and that is great. And it is because you stick with it and put everything into it. I am glad to see you having success with everything and I am very glad to see your M coming back together. You have a lot of strength, courage, convictions, and drive and it is paying off well for you. You are a great example for people to follow.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/23/09 03:08 AM
Did he offer any advice?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/23/09 03:32 AM
He said maybe someday my faith will bring her back. He said it could be 50 years from now.

BTW,

There was nothing wrong with 25's post. It was just me having to sit back and think about where am I really going in life. What am I really doing? Why do I give up so easily in so many areas?

The post was just really straight to the heart of some matters and it just kind of got to me. Then I found out something about my W that just put me further down. So I went out and excercised for a while. It was a healthy release.

I am looking forward to my audio book getting here. I won't get in trouble listening to it at work. I can listen while I work. As long as our work gets done, they don't much care about much else.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/23/09 03:33 AM
I'm sorry, he said someday my faith MIGHT bring her back. He didn't say it will.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/23/09 03:42 AM
K- Try the AA meetings. Try a new C. Keep the time with the Priest.

Grow, grow and grow some more. You've only scratched the surface so far.
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/23/09 12:30 PM
bro

you are starting to do a good bit of maybe self- realization or actualizing ...it is showing ..keep rolling down that hill

bro
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/23/09 12:32 PM
iow's

you are getting real w/ yourself ..it is beginning to look nice on you ...go go go
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/23/09 02:16 PM
Thanks Tomato,

Excercising was great. I need to be doing that every day. Tonight I am going to take my girls with their scooters and excercise again. It just really improves my mental outlook. Of course I was also awake last night because of the energy so I am a bit tired today. But that is ok. It was great to get out and burn some energy and calories.

I'm getting together with FaithfulH Saturday so I am looking forward to that. I was going to watch my girls while her family went out to celebrate her sisters birthday. But I called and told her to get a baby sitter so I could hang with FaithfulH.

I will get them starting Sunday anyways and they know the usual baby sitter very well, so I am not worried about it. Tomorrow night I am going to my divorce support group. I am looking forward to my book getting here. I feel better mentally today.

God has good things in store and I know he gives me blessings that I don't always see or recognize. Things will turn in this M with time. It just seems hopeless right now. But I know it won't be that way forever. Its going to take a lot of endurance and change in me and excercising and walking with God really helps that.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/23/09 02:39 PM
Journaling:

Wow, a lot of people are down on their situations today. I can't say as though I haven't been lately either. We all face a great challenge. And it is possibly a long one. How we conduct ourselves will determine our own happiness in the future. I also believe how we conduct ourselves will determine the ultimate outcome for our M's. We all have to keep faith and walk through this dark time remembering who is walking beside us.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/23/09 03:25 PM
Journaling:

My W said that had I moved out back in September that things might have been different now. It makes me wonder. When I offered to move out back then, she still would not agree to just a separation and was still going to file for D. I believed her. I wonder if things really would have been different if I had just moved out then and walked away for a while. Well, I am out now and I am leaving her alone. She hasn't filed for D again yet. I just have to get better control of my emotions when I am around her. It's doable. There isn't anything I can't do if I just force my mind to it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/23/09 04:53 PM
I think I am going to skip lunch today and just enjoy a good dinner with my girls and then go to the park. I have to get back down one belt buckle size.

Kevin
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/23/09 04:55 PM
haha
Posted By: Eye of the Tiger Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/23/09 05:08 PM
K4D,
I just read some of your posts above.I wonder the same thing sometimes.If I had left her alone in the beginning would things be different.Then I think to myself there is no way to change the past.Whats done is done.We can only change the present and future.At least I have learned something.So don't think about what might have been,just what it can be.I wish I knew all the answers to the rest of my issues.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/23/09 05:30 PM
EOFT,

That is what I try and do is think about what it can be. I have to quit wondering about how long it can be and just focus on me being happy while I keep hope and faith that it can be great at some point down the road.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/23/09 05:54 PM
I broke down and had one slice of pizza. Dang it! It just looked to good to pass up. I also put some croutons on it. Was so good.

Kevin
Posted By: Orich Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/23/09 06:22 PM
Pizza is one of the only things I can eat right now, for some reason. I have no appetite, but I can eat pizza. Odd.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 01:57 AM
Well,

I have had a good night so far. I picked up my kids and we went for pizza. Then I brought them home and changed so I could take them up to the park and the park has a 2 mile walking path through nature. Its really neat. We only saw 3 rabbits tonight. Last night I saw an armadillo and some rabbits. The armadillo came right up to me before it noticed I was there. Then it jumped back and scurried off.

Anyways, D11 didn't want to go because she had already excercised today. So I let her stay home and I took D7 with her scooter. She made it the whole way through. Normally I would walk it twice, but she couldn't handle it twice. She did well going through it once and then had said she was tired.

It started to sprinkle when we were done so we got in the car and headed back home.

LonlyRazr whose user name is now LR1 is back posting again and asking if anyone will come over and give him some support. He was feeling a little down on things with his sitch and could use some good advice. I had the pleasure of having dinner with him about a month ago when he came to the Dallas area and he is a great guy. But like all of us he could use some good support and helpful advice.

I have started posting to him as well so maybe others can do the same and help him out.

I am totally blown away by everyone that went over to help out Orich. Wow. That is awesome. It was pretty wild there for a bit. I know as he stated he really is truly grateful for the support he is getting.

This site really is just a fantastic site with so many great people. It is truly a blessing. I don't know where you could find a better group of caring people to help you out when you need it. I believe God works through people on this sight.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 02:21 AM
LR1's thread is called...

Starting to get "It" #2

Kevin
Posted By: Eye of the Tiger Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 02:27 AM
Funny.I have no appetite either and yet I still eat a lot of pizza.Is pizza a DB food?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 02:41 AM
I think it is. That is about all I could stomach for a while earlier on as well. lol.

Thin and crispy pepperoni pizza. mmm... yum...

My girls are watching a care bear movie tonight that they started late and paid for on the cable box.

D11 is on her time of the month right now so she is cramping. I just had to give her some medicine. The girls told me that their mom is taking them to see G Force tomorrow night so they are looking forward to that.

Kevin
Posted By: Gardener Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 03:06 AM
Originally Posted By: Eye of the Tiger
Funny.I have no appetite either and yet I still eat a lot of pizza.Is pizza a DB food?
Pizza is the DB food. smile
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 01:56 PM
I dropped off my kids this morning at the rec center and made it to work. Another weekend without my W. I have good friends to be with tonight and tomorrow night and that is a blessing.

Journaling:

I am so tired of this crap with my W pretending like she is single. Whatever stuff happened in the M doesn't give her the right to be with other men and break up our family. What part of for better or FOR WORSE to people not get these days? And if you try and say anything about it, oh, you are judgemental or not living in reality or whatever other crap they can throw at you. Vows mean nothing. A covenant means nothing.

Well it DOES mean something. Its not something fake you can just toss aside when you find something delicious out there. Do people really think they are released from their lifetime vow and covenant made with God? Based on what? Where? People just say I can do what I want because I have free will. Thats true. But if you think you are released from a covenant, think again. Its still there whether or not you choose to honor it. You are not released from it. None of us are. For better OR FOR WORSE, TIL DEATH DO YOU PART. Not til that sexy person over there likes me.

You know, I would not leave my W if she became disfigured or something else. But oh, I made to many mistakes so she has decided there is much more delicious men out there.

Frusturated and venting this morning. Time continues to go by and I see no change in W. How long before any kind of spiritual awakening occurs? Some realization of what a vow and covenant really means? Some thought about "Oh, I do have a family and kids that need both parents to be united and loving"? "Oh you mean that was for life? I didn't realize for life meant for life".

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 02:44 PM
I sure hope this card and pic of the kids plants some kind of seed to reconciliation when I give it to my W next Sunday. I am so tired of this. I miss being close to my W.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 02:51 PM
Quote:
I sure hope this card and pic of the kids plants some kind of seed to reconciliation when I give it to my W next Sunday.


Kevin this is a HUGE problem for you right now...You're giving the card with an expectation, it shouldn't matter what her reaction is. You are going to have a huge backslide because you are not going to get what you want from her with this card...trust been there done it. Get detached man it makes YOUR LIFE so much better you won't believe it.
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 02:52 PM
So early in the morning, and the backsliding is beginning. Stop it, Kevin. You've had a decent week, don't start this kind of defeatist, negative, bs thinking.

Once again, you're already looking for a "spiritual awakening" in your wife -- you need to be patient! A few days ago you were talking about "standing for your M" even if it takes 50 years, and now a few days later, and you're feeling at the end of your rope.

What fun are you planning for this weekend?

Also, remember that the card and pic for your W was supposed to be given WITH NO EXPECTATIONS, and now you're talking about "planting seeds". Stop it. If you can't give the card with no expectations, then don't do it.

BTW, you've been giving very sound counsel to others on these boards. Go back and read some of your own advice, and then apply it!
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 03:01 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
How long before any kind of spiritual awakening occurs? Some realization of what a vow and covenant really means? Some thought about "Oh, I do have a family and kids that need both parents to be united and loving"? "Oh you mean that was for life? I didn't realize for life meant for life".



Kevin, I hate to say it, but one of the toughest things for me to have come to grips with is that cold reality is that this RARELY happens. And if it appears to, many times it's a "false start" or -- worse -- just crocodile tears.

Read the success stories. Most of them are LONG, hard, grudging work, step by step, with fits and starts along the way. It takes a couple of YEARS.

You're 8 runs down, and you're looking for two grand slams. The truth is, you need some combination of 32 singles, walks, etc.

Puppy
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 03:02 PM
Originally Posted By: volleydog
Quote:
I sure hope this card and pic of the kids plants some kind of seed to reconciliation when I give it to my W next Sunday.


Kevin this is a HUGE problem for you right now...You're giving the card with an expectation, it shouldn't matter what her reaction is. You are going to have a huge backslide because you are not going to get what you want from her with this card...trust been there done it. Get detached man it makes YOUR LIFE so much better you won't believe it.


Yep -- BINGO.

Better: "Give nothing; EXPECT nothing."

Puppy
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 03:19 PM
Hey K - finally got some time to read some of your threads. Just wanted to stop in and throw some support bombs your way. Also, maybe it's better I haven't read all of your sitch. From what I see, you still have to really work on detaching, which to me is the TOUGHEST part of the process. Puppy, Phoenix, Coach and Bworl and co. all helped me on that.

So much of what I read of your posts brings back memories from last year for me. Detaching is the key to success for YOU - not saving your M. Save you first. Detaching is a process. There are many times you think you are detached only to learn you are not. But stay with it because when you get there you will see that life may have something in store for you that you kinda like.

And absolutely start living with no expectations from your W.

Strength and Honor, bro.

Mules
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 03:23 PM
I'm not expecting anything. I am just hoping it "might" plant a seed. Its something that 25 said. It "might". I don't expect any kind of reaction and I am not going to hang around to see if there is one. I'm not looking for an over night seed to grow. I know it takes a long time. I am standing for my M no matter how long it takes.

Doesn't mean I don't get frusturated during the process and think about her. I have my up times and down moments. It was gray this morning on the drive into work and I was just thinking about how I wish she had even a care in the world about our M and family. I was missing being close to her and spending time with her.

Tonight I am going to my divorce support group to a place of entertainment and food. Tomorrow night I will be enjoying another good evening with FaithfulH. Sunday morning will be church and Sunday night I get my kids back. I am going to continue to excercise on the nature trail in that park not to far from here. I am thinking about paying $30 a month and joining LA Fitness so I can lift weights. Does anyone have any opinions one way or the other on that gym? I am also still thinking about buying a bike for additional excercise.

My new testament audio CD's arrived so I can put those on my MP3 player now. My Codependent No More audio book is scheduled to arrive on Monday.

I gotta snap back out of this funk. I have great advice to offer, I just need to make sure I am applying to myself as well. I think it is hard knowing my W has moved on from the fantasy A and is now looking for a real new life. I missed a great opportunity to do things right the first time because I couldn't get past my emotional state. Things could have been better between us now and I blew it. I'm doing things right this time, but it is going to be a really long time it seems and I guess I am just not looking forward to the long journey that awaits me. She is so far removed from me it seems. I see no signs of her looking back at all.

I am still praying. I stopped by the church again yesterday to pray more. The apostles used to go to the church to pray in the bible because it is God's house. I try to do the same.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 03:27 PM
Next Sunday will be extremely hard. It is our 12 year anniversary and I will have to drop off my kids for the week to W on that day and expect nothing. That is going to be a tough day to swallow.

The detachment process is still being worked on. The following month will be my birthday. I don't think I will celebrate my birthday this year. I just don't really care to much about it. It seems like the older we get the years are supposed to get better and they just don't seem like it right now.

I will smap out of this. Just thoughts on my mind this morning.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 03:47 PM
I just went to the rejoice ministries website and listened to a daily talk by Charlene about God wanting my M restored. It was uplifting. That is a really good site. She said God created the instituion of M and hates D and wants M restored. I also have to captivate my thoughts and focus them on God and Jesus and not the things of the world so that my prayers are not hindered. It was a good message to hear today. She has a new message each day that you can listen to on audio.

Kevin
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 03:50 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Next Sunday will be extremely hard. It is our 12 year anniversary and I will have to drop off my kids for the week to W on that day and expect nothing. That is going to be a tough day to swallow.

The detachment process is still being worked on. The following month will be my birthday. I don't think I will celebrate my birthday this year. I just don't really care to much about it. It seems like the older we get the years are supposed to get better and they just don't seem like it right now.

I will smap out of this. Just thoughts on my mind this morning.

Kevin


K - loved your first post as you laid out some nice plans. But that was yin to the yang of the second post. Why not celebrate your birthday? I say do the opposite. Do something great for your birthday - something you always wanted to do but haven't. Something that can help snap you out of the funk. Be happy , be attractive and get going bro. Don't stop living your life, start living it differently. You were happy before you met your W, right?? Work on you and picking yourself up and dusting yourself off. She's probably watching you more than you realize.

STRENGTH and Honor.

Mules
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 03:59 PM
Thanks Mules,

I don't know how she could be watching me though. We are separated and she has nothing to do with me and does not talk to me. What could she be watching? She always has plans with other people. I just don't see how she is watching me when she refuses to have anything to do with me.

My current thoughts are that she has really moved on and I am a past thought and nothing to watch or look at.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 04:07 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Time continues to go by and I see no change in W.


if we were to ask your wife, what positive changes has she seen in you? what makes kevin a more attractive option to being single? how would she answer? this is important.

Originally Posted By: K4D

How long before any kind of spiritual awakening occurs? Some realization of what a vow and covenant really means?


this may never happen. you need to realize this may never happen. maybe you are more spiritual. your wife maybe more sexual. the two of you maybe incompatiable.

what if she is of the taught, i dont want to be spirtually awoken, that crap is for the birds. what if she would prefer to explore her sexual energies instead of her spiritual energies? are your convictions strong enough to convert a heathen? would you be willing let her go if it meant you had to give up your beliefs to have her come back?

Originally Posted By: K4D

Whatever stuff happened in the M doesn't give her the right to be with other men and break up our family. What part of for better or FOR WORSE to people not get these days?


what is the WORSE thing to happen in a marriage to convince someone that they need to get out? when do people have a "right"?
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 04:10 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Thanks Mules,

I don't know how she could be watching me though. We are separated and she has nothing to do with me and does not talk to me. What could she be watching? She always has plans with other people. I just don't see how she is watching me when she refuses to have anything to do with me.

My current thoughts are that she has really moved on and I am a past thought and nothing to watch or look at.

Kevin


Stop focusing on her - focus on you. Detach. Stop worrying about her. Just look good, feel good and be good.

Right now she doesn't want anything to do with you. But if you ever hope to change that, would the current K be attractive to her?? I'm not telling you she is going to change her mind - I'm telling you not to justify the decision she has already made. Be attractive bro, whether she sees you or not. Keep that mindset when you do have communication with her.

Remember Fast Times at Ridgemont High - Damone's 5 point plan:
number 2 - "wherever I am, that's the place to be. Isn't this great??"

You can handle it. Right Coach??

Mules
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 04:26 PM
Originally Posted By: mulesqb
Remember Fast Times at Ridgemont High - Damone's 5 point plan:


LOL. and always put on Zeppelin IV

Didn't take too long 'fore I found out
what people mean by "down and out"
Spent my money, took my car
Started tellin' her friends she gonna be a star
I don't know, but I been told
a pill-headed woman ain't got no soul
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 04:36 PM
Quote:
if we were to ask your wife, what positive changes has she seen in you? what makes kevin a more attractive option to being single? how would she answer? this is important.


I don't think she could say anything since she refuses to have anything to do with me.

I am doing more with myself. But she doesn't see it or know it or care. Thats what gets to me someimes is that she doesn't care. It makes me angry sometimes. Why waste your time with something such as M if you don't believe in the vows and covenant being for life? Why bother? Why not just take that money and go have a fantasy vacation if it truly means nothing? Why marry in a church if it means nothing? It just seemed like something neat to do? The bible doesn't say you can just get divorced and remarried and all is good as long as you are happy and didn't like your situation. It doesn't say that anywhere.

Doesn't matter what it says though. Some people just don't care. And if you bring it up, you are judgemental.

Yes, I remember fast times at ridgemont high and what #2 was and that is a PMA which I need to get back today. I try to focus on me, but then I slip and get angry about my circumstances and my W not acting like we have vows and a covenant. She just pisses it away. Yes I pissed away my obligations in many ways for years, but not the ultimate covenant. You can piss on it and defile it and stomp on it all you want, but you can't make it go away. It still exists once you take that vow. No man can separate what God joined together.

Uggg...

Anyways, I am going to force myself to snap out of this and focus again. I was doing good again and then slipped again. Blasted me. It takes time. I have to keep reminding myself to pray with real faith, do not doubt Him and live for him and he will heal all things when it is time.

I just have to keep reminding myself of this and look forward to each day one day at a time and look for the positives of that day and not the negatives.

I have to do what that song by Petra says "Get On Your knees And Fight Like A Man" and then entrust my W to God just like I told Orich. That same advice applies to me.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 04:48 PM
I need some PMA today.

Kevin
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 04:52 PM
K - you know what - you're reacting normally to the situation. It hurts bro, it hurts a lot. Back slides are normal. At least I think they are. I'm 8 months ahead of you and 3 weeks from being divorced and I still have them. Had one the other day. What i try to do is figure out what causes them for me. For me it's always the same thing. A memory. A memory of a thing we did, a place we were, or the person she used to be. Sometimes my backslide can last two or three days. How can that not be normal. What usually brings me back is her erratic behavior that proves she is no longer that person. Whether she is again someday is something I can't control, so I won't try.

I think it's great how you are reaching to your faith. But one thing, it sounds like you are expecting her to also. She's not going to. That gets back to the no expectations. Coach and I had many long cell phone conversations about that!

My W ran the CCD program at our parish, was a Eucharistic minister and was personally responsible for getting my boys and me into our religion. On the same day she gave that all up. And hasn't been to Church since. That was 15 months ago.

Anyway - just here for you bro. Stop beating yourself up and get busy living.

Strength and Honor.

Mules
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 05:24 PM
Quote:
But one thing, it sounds like you are expecting her to also. She's not going to. That gets back to the no expectations.


That is a problem. I keep thinking she used to have faith and believe so at some point it has to come back to her right? I keep thinking that. So far it doesn't appear from the outside that it is. I think, how can you just throw away everything you believe in with your faith? How can you say it doesn't matter? I love her dearly and I want us to be back together and I want to believe that she wants to do what is best for our family and faith. I want to believe it.

The more I look back, the more I realize she was slipping further and further away from her faith and our M and I just didn't pay attention. I should have. The fool I was. I could have prevented most if not all of this.

Well, damage takes time for even God to repair. He doesn't do it over night. So faith I will keep and build stronger.

In the mean time, it looks like I have a poker night with friends scheduled for August 22nd. That should be a lot of fun. I always enjoy it with friends.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 05:28 PM
The other thing is the clock has been restarted on no contact in her mind again. I wonder how long the clock will run on that. I have to make sure I don't ever restart that clock again once it is done chiming.

Kevin
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 05:38 PM
Quote:

That is a problem. I keep thinking she used to have faith and believe so at some point it has to come back to her right? I keep thinking that. So far it doesn't appear from the outside that it is. I think, how can you just throw away everything you believe in with your faith? How can you say it doesn't matter?


Don't think for her. Maybe she is thinking that way and struggling. Maybe she is reaching to her faith in a different way - who knows?? All you know is that somehow you have been dealt these cards and you have to play with them.



Quote:
I love her dearly and I want us to be back together and I want to believe that she wants to do what is best for our family and faith. I want to believe it.


You can believe it. But for right now - that's not what she wants. You are focusing too much on her. Detach bro. You really need to detach. Read my threads - was right where you are. You have to start focusing on things you can control. Have you made yourself a list of things you would like to do?? I started golfing again - I started hanging with friends, becuase that was something I gave up during our M. I started entertaining at my house and I reconnected myself and my kids with both sides of the family - another thing lost during the last few years of our M. Guess what, my calendar is filled.

Quote:
The more I look back, the more I realize she was slipping further and further away from her faith and our M and I just didn't pay attention. I should have. The fool I was. I could have prevented most if not all of this.


Not your issue - that is hers. She needs to work that out.

Quote:
In the mean time, it looks like I have a poker night with friends scheduled for August 22nd. That should be a lot of fun. I always enjoy it with friends.


Bro - that is almost a month away. Surely ( I know don't call me shirley), you can get moving on GALing before then. You have a nice plan for this weekend. What do you do during the week?? Can you get into a routine of stuff for Kevin. I'm up to my ears in coaching and i love it. What can you do that is consistent and fun and fulfilling?? Something healthy and invigorating.

Make a list. Get busy living.

Mules
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 05:46 PM
Kevin,

Ummm, let me pad my 2x4.

I have had the same rants from time to time. But - GET REAL!!!

There is a covenant, she has broken it, she has had the PA's, she feels justified, whatever the reasons and no matter how she has to lie to herself.

Originally Posted By: K4D


Frusturated and venting this morning. Time continues to go by and I see no change in W. How long before any kind of spiritual awakening occurs? Some realization of what a vow and covenant really means? Some thought about "Oh, I do have a family and kids that need both parents to be united and loving"? "Oh you mean that was for life? I didn't realize for life meant for life".

Kevin


Listen to me carefully Kev. There isn't going to be a sudden spiritual awakening. It will take time. Butterfly wings, not giant leaps.

I'm sorry. It sucks that we are going through this. Its horrible that the one that stood next to us and said the same vows is doing & choosing what they are. BUT IT IS WHAT IT IS.

If you think you are going to just wake up one morning and you will be jumping to piecing is not realistic - right now. Patience, time, positive interactions over time, you taking care of you should be the focus.

And giving her the card from the kids is not going to do a thing for either of you if you are doing it WITH EXPECTATIONS.

You will not make progress at all until you can accept that it really is reality. It is what you are living and seeing and feeling. No amount of will changes that.

Also consider, even if you or I want to put everything our S does under the label of a MLC - that it is a cop-out.

I know things I did wrong. I know how I hurt my H. If I acted like he was just going to come to his senses because he knows not what he does, that would disregard and disrespect what and how he honestly felt.

Feelings are not right or wrong, they just are. And they don't just wake up the morning they drop the bomb and change. It takes time to get to the point where you start to lose hope and consider that maybe this m is not where I am supposed to be.

And if you disrespect that she honestly felt this way, went through soul - searching and consideration and then made the decision she did - NO MATTER HOW PAINFUL FOR YOU RIGHT NOW - then how in the heck could you expect her to reconsider, come closer to you, etc.

Its hard, but not impossible. Not easy, but simple. Work the DB principals. Internalize it. Make it a part of you and not just something you kinda' follow.

Do this because you have to be the most handsome, confident, warm, friendly, interesting wonderful you for you before she will take a second look. The hurt hurts, and don't I know it. How will she believe any of your changes if you are only faking them?

I step out on faith every day. Have your read Separated & Waiting? I think it might be something you could benefit from.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 05:53 PM
Originally Posted By: mulesqb

Remember Fast Times at Ridgemont High - Damone's 5 point plan:
number 2 - "wherever I am, that's the place to be. Isn't this great??"

Mules


Thanks to Wikipedia:

[the "five-point plan"] First of all Rat, you never let on how much you like a girl. "Oh, Debbie. Hi." Two, you always call the shots. "Kiss me. You won't regret it." Now three, act like wherever you are, that's the place to be. "Isn't this great?" Four, when ordering food, you find out what she wants, then order for the both of you. It's a classy move. "Now, the lady will have the linguini and white clam sauce, and a Coke with no ice." And five, now this is the most important, Rat. When it comes down to making out, whenever possible, put on side one of Led Zeppelin IV.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 05:58 PM
Mules,

During the week without my kids I try to do things with friends I am making. I also go talk with my priest on Mondays. I think I might really go buy that bike. It may be between that and a gym membership to lift weights and excercise so I don't have to drive to the park every day to walk especially when I have my kids.

Wifey,

I want to read that book. I just looked it up on Barnes and Noble. I'm going to get it and read it.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 06:02 PM
Kevin please listen carefully:

Coulda' Woulda' Shoulda'
Always smartest in hindsight

Originally Posted By: K4D

The more I look back, the more I realize she was slipping further and further away from her faith and our M and I just didn't pay attention. I should have. The fool I was. I could have prevented most if not all of this.

Well, damage takes time for even God to repair. He doesn't do it over night. So faith I will keep and build stronger.


Maybe you could have or maybe you couldn't. You don't get extra points by beating yourself up. Let go and let God.

He has his own time-line and knows the road map. He just doesn't let us know what it is. We have to step out on faith. Not faith we profess, but faith we DO.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 06:16 PM
Thanks for posting to me Kevin. I believe my M will be restored but I also know that it could be possible that he would have to d me first. Regardless, I am keeping the faith and stepping out on faith!
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 06:42 PM
Originally Posted By: The Wifey
Originally Posted By: mulesqb

Remember Fast Times at Ridgemont High - Damone's 5 point plan:
number 2 - "wherever I am, that's the place to be. Isn't this great??"

Mules


Thanks to Wikipedia:

[the "five-point plan"] First of all Rat, you never let on how much you like a girl. "Oh, Debbie. Hi." Two, you always call the shots. "Kiss me. You won't regret it." Now three, act like wherever you are, that's the place to be. "Isn't this great?" Four, when ordering food, you find out what she wants, then order for the both of you. It's a classy move. "Now, the lady will have the linguini and white clam sauce, and a Coke with no ice." And five, now this is the most important, Rat. When it comes down to making out, whenever possible, put on side one of Led Zeppelin IV.


Come on KJ - Now you know that Damone was a genious! That entire list is gold!!!

Number 4 is awesome!!
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 06:42 PM
[
Quote:

I think I might really go buy that bike.



Happy Birthday to me!! Now you're talking.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 06:44 PM
Sorry to hear you're having a bad day.

Remember a couple of posts ago, I mentioned how you need to be careful not to seem judgmental towards her especially in the form of religion? Well....

"Why waste your time with something such as M if you don't believe in the vows and covenant being for life? Why bother? Why not just take that money and go have a fantasy vacation if it truly means nothing? Why marry in a church if it means nothing? It just seemed like something neat to do? The bible doesn't say you can just get divorced and remarried and all is good as long as you are happy and didn't like your situation. It doesn't say that anywhere."

That sounds pretty judgemental.

I hope you realize that all the advice from day one pointed to one thing...detaching. You have your ups and downs but now you're throwing religion at it.

There are times where now you're beginning to sound self-righteous, then you turn it around and say...let go let God.

Well, you're right. Let God take care of it. Release your burden to Him and see what happens. Go back and read the story of the Prodigal Son. That's detachment and faith right there.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 07:24 PM
I'm just having a bad day for some reason. Things feel hopeless today. It seems that every day that goes by with no contact, there is less chance of things working back towards a reconciliation. I sometimes wonder if she even thinks about me anymore. I can't imagine she does. She just seems so intent on having fun and finding that next person that I am an after thought.

Where is my patience today. Some days my faith is stronger than other days. I get to see her for a few minutes each week when we exchange the kids. I guess I don't want to be in the position of having to wait for years for progress to be made even though I know it is not in my hands. I will wait. I just badly don't want to.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 07:28 PM
Originally Posted By: mulesqb

Come on KJ - Now you know that Damone was a genious!!!


Quote:

Mike Damone: Yeah! The attitude dictates that you don't care whether she comes, stays, lays, or prays. I mean whatever happens, your toes are still tappin'. Now when you got that, then you have the attitude.
Posted By: mac-ct Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 07:33 PM
Originally Posted By: The Wifey
He has his own time-line and knows the road map.

Originally Posted By: stuck808
I hope you realize that all the advice from day one pointed to one thing...detaching. You have your ups and downs but now you're throwing religion at it.


Oh yes - thats for sure. Go with the flow K.
There's been weird things happening in my sitch that I just can't explain.
I certainly didn't engineer some of the "stuff" that just happened.
I'm sure that "someone" is guiding all this &%#*.
I'm not so religious that I'll go banging on doors, twisting arms or beating a path to the local church. BUT I always do "my thing" with the "someone" every evening and every morning. And things "happen".


maybe thats just me being cynical and covering my bases but I think not.

Chin up.

Mac
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 07:48 PM
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Sorry to hear you're having a bad day.

Remember a couple of posts ago, I mentioned how you need to be careful not to seem judgmental towards her especially in the form of religion? Well....

"Why waste your time with something such as M if you don't believe in the vows and covenant being for life? Why bother? Why not just take that money and go have a fantasy vacation if it truly means nothing? Why marry in a church if it means nothing? It just seemed like something neat to do? The bible doesn't say you can just get divorced and remarried and all is good as long as you are happy and didn't like your situation. It doesn't say that anywhere."

That sounds pretty judgemental.

I hope you realize that all the advice from day one pointed to one thing...detaching. You have your ups and downs but now you're throwing religion at it.

There are times where now you're beginning to sound self-righteous, then you turn it around and say...let go let God.

Well, you're right. Let God take care of it. Release your burden to Him and see what happens. Go back and read the story of the Prodigal Son. That's detachment and faith right there.


great post Stk, and something I read in a book recently about how people who use religion to Win arguments, convince others that they are "proved right" are SOOOO missing out on the real message, which is spreading God's message of love and modelling forgiveness. One author submits that people who argue about God and quote scripture to "win their arguments" rarely if ever, thereby turn someone's heart to God. They usually turn them off.

I have a brother who has been "witnessing" for decades, bringing up scripture with self righteous indignation and (usually anger) and turns everyone off. My brother says it's religious persecution that makes us upset with him, but he doesn't see how HE is the persecutor, and that's why no one invites him to celebrations or family events unless they have to.

As for a spiritual awakening for her, Kevin, how is that your job to worry about? That's God's job. Your job is your own spiritual awakening and preparing youreslf for it so when you have one, you'll be ready.

Birthday? I think taking your d's to dinner and having cake for dessert with a candle on it and a waiter singing Happy Birthday is one idea. Or Maybe make something special at home, or meet up with some friends and let your d's see you happy with new people in your life. That'd be a good 180' You have a lot to be grateful for, and you have gotten through a very tough year, & everyone you love is still healthy and safe.
j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 08:14 PM
I can't believe it has been almost a year of this and I feel further apart now and more hopeless than when it began. I guess when you don't see or hear from your S for a while that you begin to wonder how is anything supposed to change with no interaction.

I can do my birthday for my girls. It will mean something to them even if not to me.

Ok. I am backsliding to far today. I have got to come back to moving forward and praying with faith and without doubt. I have a huge lesson to learn there obviously because my faith is really taking a beating today.

Kevin
Posted By: Eye of the Tiger Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 08:34 PM
Kev,
You have given me some good advice.My turn to reciprocate.All of here on the board have done a tremendous amount to try to save their marriages.We should all give ourselves a pat on the back for that.Everybody has their own set amount of time they feel they need to put into it.We are all going to backslide now and then.In my own sitch I should've started a little sooner but that is over and I need to work on going forward.You have to do what you need to do and that is it.Take care.Keep the faith.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 08:40 PM
Thanks EOTT,

I'm working back at it. Just had a rough day with my faith today.

Kevin
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 11:15 PM
Kev- Whenever I start to think about my W and it will take me down a path I don't want to travel, I think about a STOP sign (DR) or pray to God for strength to think of something else. Keep moving forward and getting a bike is a great idea. I love riding through the woods near my house smile
Also, I found rejoiceministries to be a God send and very helpful each day. It was from there I decide to take the challenge to read the Bible in 90 days and so far I'm on track to reach my goal. Have a good weekend, I'm off to the divorce support group I attend and I have baked brownies for tonight. I think we are going to watch "The Secret".
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/24/09 11:19 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D


I think I might really go buy that bike.



I highly recommend it! One of the best things I've ever done. Don't get a beater...get a good one! You'll enjoy it so much more!
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/25/09 12:29 PM
Hey Mules - It is genious! Not only did it accomplish his goal of having lots of women, it also made those women feel like queens in the moment.

Originally Posted By: mulesqb
Originally Posted By: The Wifey
Originally Posted By: mulesqb

Remember Fast Times at Ridgemont High - Damone's 5 point plan:
number 2 - "wherever I am, that's the place to be. Isn't this great??"

Mules


Thanks to Wikipedia:

[the "five-point plan"] First of all Rat, you never let on how much you like a girl. "Oh, Debbie. Hi." Two, you always call the shots. "Kiss me. You won't regret it." Now three, act like wherever you are, that's the place to be. "Isn't this great?" Four, when ordering food, you find out what she wants, then order for the both of you. It's a classy move. "Now, the lady will have the linguini and white clam sauce, and a Coke with no ice." And five, now this is the most important, Rat. When it comes down to making out, whenever possible, put on side one of Led Zeppelin IV.


Come on KJ - Now you know that Damone was a genious! That entire list is gold!!!

Number 4 is awesome!!
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/25/09 01:07 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I'm just having a bad day for some reason. Things feel hopeless today.


Kevin, you will have hopeless days. That is when you hit your knees and you pray to God to let him know you need his help. The burden of the pain will hold you down until you do. Let go and let God is more than just knowing the statement, it really and truly is telling him that for today, you are finding it too hard to handle and you need him to do the heavy lifting. If you do, he will.

Quote:
It seems that every day that goes by with no contact, there is less chance of things working back towards a reconciliation. I sometimes wonder if she even thinks about me anymore. I can't imagine she does. She just seems so intent on having fun and finding that next person that I am an after thought.


Honey, I promise you she does think about you. No one can be in your life, fall in love with you, marry you, bear your children and then just forget. Do you think for one minute she is going to tell you that? Do you think she is going to show you one minute of doubt right now?

As far as having fun - right now that is her intention. That is the fantasy she wants and what she is trying to live right now. Something comes to mind about be careful what you wish for. It won't live up to her fantasy. Moments of fun without true love and meaning behind them get old.

I think often about my h, that wanted to be his own man, and figure out himself, living with his parents and spending most of his nights sitting in a tiny 8x10 bedroom watching movies on his laptop. Every time he comes here and watches a movie in the lounge chair with the surround sound and a cold beer I can see the wheels turning.

And you are making an awful big pronouncement about there being less chance every day. Have you heard of the self-fulfilling prophecy? What you focus on is usually what will happen.

Can you, instead, picture the day that your wife says she wants to try. Can you imagine what it will look like? What will it feel like? How happy will your kids be? Will it be at the house or out somewhere. Will you be at a nice restaurant or a local park.

Thank God every day for his work and help in restoring your marriage. Believe and focus.

Quote:
Where is my patience today. Some days my faith is stronger than other days.


Do not equate impatience and longing with a lack of faith. Faith is between you and God, and the rest you rely on him for. Have you prayed for your wife? I really mean that.

Not just pray that she will come back, but pray for her clarity of thought, her happiness, her safety? Do you pray for her to be the best mother she can be? Do you pray for the Lord to bring her all the wonderful blessings she deserves.

And yes, no matter what has happened, you should.

Quote:
I get to see her for a few minutes each week when we exchange the kids.


And what does she see in those moments? Do you ask how she is? Do you ask about her with true interest? Do you ask if there is anything you can do for her? Are you not only acting as if, but truly shining? Is your house spotless, children dressed and prepared, you looking good, confident, happy to see her, even it is for just moments?

Quote:
I guess I don't want to be in the position of having to wait for years for progress to be made even though I know it is not in my hands. I will wait. I just badly don't want to.


What you want versus reality. How much do you love her? I picture POW's sitting in some far off jail trying to keep the faith. They could do it. They did do it. Do you love her enough to keep the faith. Kevin, this is reality, really it is.

I believe you are strong enough. I believe you can be the man she needs in her life. It is up to you to pull through and not tell, but show her that you are all she will ever need.

Kevin, I have to add one more thing. I resisted like heck everyone's suggestion to get on AD's. For months and months I refused to even consider it. But I am now on Welbutrin and recently added Zanax for anxiety. Mostly because of peri-menopause, but I am thankful I did.

Simply put, even if I have to have the medication to help me control my emotions right now - it has helped me. Controlling my sadness and anxiety has helped me, and let me help my H. I would strongly urge you to visit your Dr and give them some thought.
Posted By: mac-ct Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/25/09 01:13 PM
Originally Posted By: The Wifey
Do not equate impatience and longing with a lack of faith. Faith is between you and God, and the rest you rely on him for. Have you prayed for your wife? I really mean that.

Not just pray that she will come back, but pray for her clarity of thought, her happiness, her safety? Do you pray for her to be the best mother she can be? Do you pray for the Lord to bring her all the wonderful blessings she deserves.

And yes, no matter what has happened, you should.

And what does she see in those moments? Do you ask how she is? Do you ask about her with true interest? Do you ask if there is anything you can do for her? Are you not only acting as if, but truly shining? Is your house spotless, children dressed and prepared, you looking good, confident, happy to see her, even it is for just moments?

I believe you are strong enough. I believe you can be the man she needs in her life. It is up to you to pull through and not tell, but show her that you are all she will ever need.


Inspirational - truly inspirational.

Mac
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/26/09 05:20 AM
Quote:
Can you, instead, picture the day that your wife says she wants to try. Can you imagine what it will look like? What will it feel like? How happy will your kids be? Will it be at the house or out somewhere. Will you be at a nice restaurant or a local park.

Thank God every day for his work and help in restoring your marriage. Believe and focus.


This is one that I am trying to picture. I very much like the way you put this.

Quote:
And what does she see in those moments? Do you ask how she is? Do you ask about her with true interest? Do you ask if there is anything you can do for her? Are you not only acting as if, but truly shining? Is your house spotless, children dressed and prepared, you looking good, confident, happy to see her, even it is for just moments?


Tomorrow night is one of those moments coming again. If only for a few moments I do have that to shine. I will ask how she is and if there is anything I can do for her. I will be picking the kids up from her house as far as I know. I will make sure I am looking good.

Quote:
What you want versus reality. How much do you love her?


I love her more than any other person on this planet.

Last night I hung out with my divorce support group that I have started making friends with. Although they are moving on from their past M's and I am still standing for mine, I still very much enjoy them as people and friends and I had a good time with them.

Today I woke up at noon and went with a friend to hang out with a group of people that get together at the same restaurant each week and just spend a few hours chatting about whatever is new during the week or whatever is on their mind. I enjoyed that. It was my second time to hang out with them. They are kind of a misfit group so I figured I fit right in with them. lol.

Tonight I had a wonderful evening with FaithfulH. We ate at a chinese buffet and then went to see the movie "Moon". It was very good. I enjoyed it. We talked for a good while and he brought up something. Our S's tend to look at us as weak for standing for our M's. But what they probably don't realize is that is really is very hard to stand in the face of all of this. It would be easier initially (not longterm) to go find someone else and fill that void. That is the easy route out. It is much harder and takes a stronger person to not go down that route. Yet they look at is as weak. That was a very good point he made and I completely agree with it. It is hard to stand and form your own life and let them live their's out of love. That is a great love to do that while praying for a reconciliation. It takes a lot of strength to do that knowing what you know is going on. I could get dates if I wanted to and go out with other women if I wanted to. But I don't want to do that. I'm taking the harder road and honoring my vow and loving my W no matter what she does. I forgive her daily as one must in order to have God's graces. If you don't forgive, why should God forgive you? Good things to remind yourself daily on.

Tomorrow I will get up and go to church and then I might go do that nature hike again. It really is enjoyable. I should get my kids around 7pm.

I pinpointed when my mood starts changing. It is as I get closer to knowing when W is going out with her family and friends and knowing what they used to be like and knowing what a good possibility of things happening are now. It has been on my mind this week as the week has gotten closer to tonight when I knew she was doing herself all up to go out and dine and club again. I just prayed that there wouldn't be an OM with her tonight. I prayed that God would give her clarity and love in her heart for God and our M and our family.

One week to go before the 12 year anniversary. I have no expectations to see anything from her when I hand her the card with the pictures in it. I'm not going to hang around to watch her open it. I HOPE but DON'T expect a seed planted that might grow in the future. Big difference between hope and expecting.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/26/09 06:00 PM
Today I got up and went to mass. Then I went grocery shopping. Looks like some laundry to do this afternoon. I'm going to get some prayer time in as well.

W wants me to pick up the girls at 6. So I told her that is fine and I will see her then.

I am looking forward to seeing my girls again. I'm gonna put my best foot forward in front of my W. I am praying for some bit of positiveness today when I see her.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/26/09 06:30 PM
Quote:
what is the WORSE thing to happen in a marriage to convince someone that they need to get out? when do people have a "right"?


It depends on your belief about M. Did you make an everlasting covenant or not? For better or for worse? Or not? Can you stand through the tough times? Can you face the hardest thing in your life and keep faith? Did you make a vow for life no matter what?

I think you have to ask yourself these questions and see where you stand.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/26/09 06:38 PM
If any of you could, I would certain appreciate it if you could pray this prayer for me and W.

"I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen K4D and W with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in
your hearts through faith. And I pray that K4D and W, being
rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp
how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that
surpasses knowledge--that K4D and W may be filled to the
measure of all the fullness of God. Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more
than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us." Ephesians
3:16-20

".... We have not stopped praying for K4D and W asking God to
fill K4D and W with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual
wisdom and understanding. And we pray this in order that K4D and W may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing
fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all
power according to his glorious might so that K4D and W may
have great endurance and patience, and joyfully giving thanks to the Father, who has
qualified K4D and W to share in the inheritance of the saints in
the kingdom of light. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought
us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness
of sins." Colossians 1:9-14

Kevin
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/26/09 11:02 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
If any of you could, I would certain appreciate it if you could pray this prayer for me and W.


Amen
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 12:16 AM
Thanks.

I went to get my kids tonight at W's house. I had prayed all day for a glimpse of the other side of the mountain to see a tiny fraction of what God is doing with this separation. He didn't show me. lol.

W was cold and distant and just acted as if she could care less that I was there. I asked her how she was doing and if there was anything I could do for her. She said fine and no. She gave me my mail and pretty much ignored for the most part. She was getting ready to go to a poker tournament. I asked her how the party was last night. She said good and they didn't get home til 3:30 am.

I finished packing the kids and they said good bye and I told W to have a good week. She said thanks and she will pick up the kids Wednesday which is her usual night to pick them up.

It was tough to stomach tonight. The Lord is teaching me something here. He is teaching me patience. That is the lesson I am taking from the interaction tonight.

For those of you who think that she does think about me. Whew, I think that is highly questionable. I hope you all are right. I am keeping my faith none the less that God is working behind the scenes and I am reminding myself that it is in his time and not mine.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 02:43 AM
Tonight I experimented with something kind of new. I am not sure what to call it. D11 is racking her brain on what to call it as she is planning on making it an apetizer someday when she becomes a chef. D7 also loved it.

I toasted some bread. Then I spread tomato paste on it. Then I sprinkled shredded mozzarella cheese on it and put basil on top of it. I put them on a pan and baked them in the oven at 350 dgrees. If preheated then 7 minutes. If not preheated then 10 minutes. It was so good. I'm thinking I will put some sort of meat on it next time. I could put some peppers or vegetables on it next time also. Cheap, quick, easy, good.

Now what do we call this? It isn't necessarily pizza, although very close to it with the exception being toast instead of pizza dough. And it was tomato paste instead of tomato sauce.

hmm...

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 12:04 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
what is the WORSE thing to happen in a marriage to convince someone that they need to get out? when do people have a "right"?


It depends on your belief about M. Did you make an everlasting covenant or not? For better or for worse? Or not? Can you stand through the tough times? Can you face the hardest thing in your life and keep faith? Did you make a vow for life no matter what?

I think you have to ask yourself these questions and see where you stand.

Kevin


I know where I stand. I was trying to get you to try and view this seperation for your wife's point of view. That is very important in your understanding and possible reconcillation.
Posted By: Kalni Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 01:14 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D

I toasted some bread. Then I spread tomato paste on it. Then I sprinkled shredded mozzarella cheese on it and put basil on top of it. I put them on a pan and baked them in the oven at 350 dgrees. If preheated then 7 minutes. If not preheated then 10 minutes. It was so good. I'm thinking I will put some sort of meat on it next time. I could put some peppers or vegetables on it next time also. Cheap, quick, easy, good.

Now what do we call this?


It is called bruschetta in Italian. They use tomato, oil, basil and add mozzarella or ham (their kind) or other things also. It's an appetizer and in Greece even Pizza Hut makes a version of it...
K
Posted By: mnt_dreams Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 01:22 PM
Quote:
It is hard to stand and form your own life and let them live their's out of love.


Words to live by.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 01:47 PM
Hard words to live by.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 02:32 PM
A Standers Affirmation
I AM STANDING FOR THE HEALING OF MY MARRIAGE!... I will not give up, give in, give out or give over 'til that healing takes place. I made a vow, I said the words, I gave the pledge, I gave a ring, I took a ring, I gave myself, I trusted GOD, and said the words, and meant the words... in sickness and in health, in sorrow and in joy, for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in good times and in bad...so I am standing NOW, and will not sit down, let down, slow down, calm down, fall down, look down or be down 'til the breakdown is torn down!

I refuse to put my eyes on outward circumstances, or listen to prophets of doom, or buy into what is trendy, worldly, popular, convenient, easy, quick, thrifty, or advantageous... nor will I settle for a cheap imitation of God's real thing, nor will I seek to lower God's standard, twist God's will, rewrite God's word, violate God's covenant, or accept what God hates, namely divorce!

In a world of filth, I will stay pure; surrounded by lies I will speak the truth; where hopelessness abounds, I will hope in God: where revenge is easier, I will bless instead of curse; and where the odds are stacked against me, I will trust in God's faithfulness.

I am a STANDER, and I will not acquiesce, compromise, quarrel or quit.. I have made the choice, set my face, entered the race, believed the Word, and trusted God for all the outcome.

I will allow neither the reaction of my spouse, nor the urging of my friends, nor the advice of my loved ones, nor economic hardship, nor the prompting of the devil to make me let up, slow up, blow up, or give up 'til my marriage is healed.

- Author Unknown

I just needed to read this again this morning.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 02:43 PM
I think one thing that crossed my mind this morning is I feel like I have nothing to offer W. She doesn't need me financially. She does far better than I do financially. She has no lack of guys showing interest in her that she can pick who she wants.

All I have to offer is unconditional love and support and that seems to be of no interest to her.

I'm not sure what else I can bring to the table other than what I said and that I am the father of our kids.

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 03:29 PM
Kev,

How about the challenge that was put to you months ago. Go one week without mentioning your W. What do you think? Maybe you need to have a big rubberband around your wrist, every time you think of her - SNAP IT HARD.

You've got to stop the obsessing.

Stacy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 03:56 PM
I am really tired today. I did not sleep well at all last night. I wonder if some of that is contributing to this today.

DW, I can quit talking about her. But I can't stop praying for our reconciliation which does require me to think about her each day. But outside of that, I can work on it.

My girls wanted to stay home today. D11 is still having issues with her time of the month. I had to tell them they can't stay home as I have to go to work.

In my mind I was thinking if me and W were together, we could work something out like we always did in the past. But I did not say anything out loud. It was just my thoughts.

Tonight me and D11 are going to cook dinner together. That should be fun. She is really taking to trying new things.

I'm really exhausted today. And of course it is gray and raining outside which doesn't help the mood.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 06:18 PM
"I think one thing that crossed my mind this morning is I feel like I have nothing to offer W. She doesn't need me financially. She does far better than I do financially. She has no lack of guys showing interest in her that she can pick who she wants.

All I have to offer is unconditional love and support and that seems to be of no interest to her.

I'm not sure what else I can bring to the table other than what I said and that I am the father of our kids."

There's the same ol' Kevin. I guess the C wouldn't have helped with this huh? You know your lack of self-esteem issues.

I'll be the first one to say it, now you're backsliding out of religion as building you up, just like how you backslid out of C and AA and everything else because it's not a quick fix.

There's the 2x4. I doubt if even 25 is going to respond to all that.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 06:22 PM
I'm not backsliding out of religion. That will never happen regardless of my circumstances.

"For nothing is impossible with God." Luke 1:37

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 07:02 PM
I didn't mean that you were backsliding out of religion in terms of faith (reread post). I meant backsliding in terms of using it as a means to build you up.

It's what C and AA was also supposed to do, but you dropped out of those. Religion and belief in God is great. But He gives you the resources you need to take care of yourself. In your case, from day one it's been your self-esteem.

You can quote all the scriptures you want, but it's not going to help your self-esteem and not going to help you feel better about yourself. That's the key. You have to feel good about YOURSELF not what you're doing for the day or weekend, but YOU.

I don't know how many people have come through here telling you the same things over and over again, and you just don't listen. Then you turn around and say "why won't my W come back?" wah wah.

What did your friend the priest suggest you do?

Do you really think God will change your W's opinion? Or do you think He gives YOU the OPPORTUNITY to change your W's opinion?

He gives you all the time and resources you need. The rest is up to you. That's where freewill comes in.

You keep saying "well I'm going out with friends, etc." and you consider that GAL. If that is, why are you back here asking the same questions? Why are you here feeling just as depressed as you were on the day your W left?

It's because you haven't done the one thing that GAL is supposed to do. Strengthen your self-esteem. Strengthen yourself.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 07:09 PM
My audio book Codependent No more arrives tomorrow. I am looking forward to going through that.

I do believe that she will come back at some point. I just have my down moments.

It's Monday so I am heading out to talk to my priest again in a couple of hours.

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 07:14 PM
Kevin,

Please re-read and re-read Stuck's post and THINK ABOUT IT!!

You can't go even one day without some variation of: Why won't my wife come back? When will my wife come back? And on and on ad nauseum.

Why won't you focus on what you CAN control -- you, instead of continually focusing on what you CAN'T control -- your wife? Is that just more safe for you -- just to continually moan and groan and question -- then you don't have to work on your issues?

Stacy
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 07:18 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I think one thing that crossed my mind this morning is I feel like I have nothing to offer W. She doesn't need me financially. She does far better than I do financially. She has no lack of guys showing interest in her that she can pick who she wants.

All I have to offer is unconditional love and support and that seems to be of no interest to her.

I'm not sure what else I can bring to the table other than what I said and that I am the father of our kids.

Kevin


Hey K - Wow! I have only been posting to you for a few days. Actually started ion Orich's thread. You came across on his thread as very confident, self assured, focused and strong. When I read your posts here, I see the complete opposite. I'm not into 2x4's but you're as close as I've been to throwing some.

Listen, go read your posts to others. They are awesome. Now imagine you were on my thread and I just wrote what you wrote. What would you say to me???

Detach bro!! It's the hardest part, especially when you still love your wife. It doesn't mean that because you detach you don't love her any more. Not at all. I'm afraid that if you are giving even a sniff of the guy that's posting here, it's going to be a major turnoff. I know you don't have much interaction but bro, you need to work on yourself. Now!!

No she doesn't need you financially. So what! Would you want her to want you because of that?? Who would want to be with someone for that reason?

What you bring to the table is a handsome, honest, family man with great core values, integrity and class, who is a lot stronger than any one can imagine right now becuase he is dealing with a fight of his lifetime head on.

Kevin it's time. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and take care of you!! Get busy living.

Strength and Honor.

Mules
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 07:35 PM
I think what you are seeing if me advising people that I have found who have more hope than they realize. I am trying to keep them from getting to the point where I got in my M. It is easy to see other people's situations and look at it and say, there are things there that you still have to work with. You are not as bad off as you think. So I try and hit them off before they take it further down the drain. The things I am advising them of are things I wish myself that I would have done earlier on before it got this bad.

I also find that it helps me to help those other people.

As everyone says, mine teaches you what not to do by how bad off it is now. I am not doing any of those things anymore. But it is a long road back from all the mistakes I made in this process. That doesn't mean it is impossible. I think with God and me doing what I need to even mine can be restored. It just is not going to be a quick turn around at all barring a miracle from the big guy above.

But you are right. I am in the fight of my life. I have never had a bigger fight in my life. And I am taking it head on, but I could still be doing much better in my PMA and GAL.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 07:49 PM
I got this off the rejoice ministries website today. It is very inspirational to me.

Who Am I?

"The LORD turned to him and said, "Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian's hand. Am I not sending you?" "But Lord, "Gideon asked, "how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family." The LORD answered, "I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together." Judges 6:14-16

How many times have you asked God the very same thing that Gideon asked? Who am I? How can I save my family? I am weak. I am flawed. I am not worthy. I am the least important person in my beloved's life right now. Even my own family thinks I'm crazy. I don't think I can do this God. What does He answer? Go in the strength you have. I will be with you.

When you look at the huge set of circumstances you face, don't forget to look at your God; because He is right there with you offering His strong right hand to get you through. He's not just walking beside you; He's fighting for you. There is example after example in the Bible of what God's people can do when God is fighting for them. Look at Joshua and the walls of Jericho. Look at David and the Philistine, Goliath. Look at Hezekiah or Deborah or Nehemiah. Look at Gideon.

God's challenge to Gideon came at a time when Israel was once again at the bottom. The Midianites had been oppressing the Israelites, running raids from the hills, stealing their livestock and grain. They had even been forced to thresh their wheat in an area hidden from the marauders. In fact, this is exactly where Gideon was when the angel appeared to him - threshing his wheat in a winepress pit, hiding.

Are you down in that pit right now? Are you hiding from what God wants you to do? Do you have fear of your circumstances or fear of what other people will think or fear of failing? Do you feel like the odds against you are too great? Look at what God gave Gideon to work with!

"But the LORD said to Gideon, "There are still too many men...The LORD said to Gideon, "With the three hundred men that lapped I will save you and give the Midianites into your hands. Let all the other men go, each to his own place." Judges 7:4,7

So God takes Gideon's army of 22,000 men and reduces it to 300. Can't you just hear Gideon now? If he protested that he was "the least" when the angel first spoke to him, can you imagine what he's thinking right now? I'm sure that warfare protocol at the time did not say take 300 men to fight thousands. But God did not want the Israelites to boast of their own strength. He wanted to show them His strength.

Are you facing overwhelming odds? Do you feel outnumbered and outmanned? Do you feel like you are facing an impossible battle? Is your heart's cry "Who am I Lord?" God wants you to know that impossible is not a word in His dictionary. He wants you to know that as He calls you, He equips you. He wants you to know that He has placed that promise in your heart and is ready to fight for you. He wants you to know that you can do this in His strength.

"With your help I can advance against a troop; with my God I can scale a wall." Psalm 18:29

"Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the LORD your God will be with you wherever you go." Joshua 1:9

Now we have Gideon with his army of 300, his empty jars with torches inside, and his trumpets. He's getting ready to fight the Midianites. He has stepped over that faith line after a couple of "fleece" incidents but he still has fear. God knows this. There is a little bit of that "Who am I Lord" still left in Gideon's heart. So God allows him to overhear the dream that one of the Midianites had about the sword of Gideon. This is that final push that Gideon needed to step over that faith line and stay there.

God wants us to believe in His restoration promises but He knows how hard it is sometimes. So along the way, while we are saying, "Who am I Lord?" He gives us little nuggets of gold. He gives us the wet fleece and the dry fleece. He gives us the dreams and the visions. He shows us what is in the hearts of the ones we pray for. The whole time He is saying to us, "Go in the strength you have. I will be with you."

"Gideon and the hundred men with him reached the edge of the camp at the beginning of the middle watch, just after they had changed the guard. They blew their trumpets and broke the jars that were in their hands. The three companies blew the trumpets and smashed the jars. Grasping the torches in their left hands and holding in their right hands the trumpets they were to blow, they shouted, "A sword for the LORD and for Gideon!" While each man held his position around the camp, all the Midianites ran, crying out as they fled." Judges 7:19-21

Just as God gave this impossible victory to Gideon, so He will give us victory. Who are we? We are the men and women God has called to stand in the gap and pray for our families and our spouses. We are the men and women joined together to pray for the salvation of those we love. We are the Christians united in God's strength set to accomplish seemingly impossible tasks against overwhelming odds. We are the Gideons and God is with us.

"Then King David went in and sat before the LORD, and he said: "Who am I, O LORD God, and what is my family, that you have brought me this far? And as if this were not enough in your sight, O God, you have spoken about the future of the house of your servant. You have looked on me as though I were the most exalted of men, O LORD God. "What more can David say to you for honoring your servant? For you know your servant, O LORD. For the sake of your servant and according to your will, you have done this great thing and made known all these great promises." 1 Chronicles 17:16-19

Kevin
Posted By: Eye of the Tiger Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 07:50 PM
Kevin,
I read your post above.You mentioned advising people who have more hope than you have.We all have a chance.In your sitch your D was dismissed.Is that not a good thing as you told me?I've read that seps. generally end in D but not in all cases.A decent percentage do end up reconciling.My W right now has prety much told me to either do the D or Sep.I still feel pressured by this.She is having the sep. drawn up as we speak.As I mentioned in my post in my heart I don't want a divorce but can't stop her right now.I can delay it though.Does it help me in the long run?I don't know.I know that it is killing me right now .My W does a lot better than me financially also which means I have more to gain if she does file for D.Keep your head high.Even though other sitchs may look like they have more hope that is not necessararily
true.We can support each other here but in the end it is up to you what to do.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 07:56 PM
EOTT,

Perhaps I should have said appear to have more hope. But I see what you are saying and agree.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 08:00 PM
I hope you got more than just "inspired" by your quote.

Did you actually read it carefully? It pretty much says that God will help you, but YOU have to help yourself first. Same as what everyone here has been telling you.

Examples:

""Go in the strength you have. I will be with you.""
"He is right there with you offering His strong right hand to get you through."

""With your help I can advance against a troop; with my God I can scale a wall." Psalm 18:29"

"He gives us little nuggets of gold."

Start really reading things.

When you said this to mulesqb..."As everyone says, mine teaches you what not to do by how bad off it is now. I am not doing any of those things anymore." I couldn't believe it.

You are doing the exact same things you have done. Don't believe me, then reread your post earlier today. All of the things you posted about how you haven't moved in your sitch and it's an example of what not to do, etc. The fact is that you're still doing them and STILL expecting the sitch to turn out differently.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 08:06 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
My audio book Codependent No more arrives tomorrow. I am looking forward to going through that.

I do believe that she will come back at some point. I just have my down moments.

It's Monday so I am heading out to talk to my priest again in a couple of hours.

Kevin


Kevin, It's a lot more than down moments...when you question what you offer your wife, you are asking yourself questions that were asked of you months ago, and that should have been addressed the first month of DBing.

We asked you to think about it, so that you could work on THAT b/c it's such a huge part of GAL. Finding things that make you interestING to others and interestED in others....hobbies, being into current events-join a current events club and learn from others-classes-developing yourself as a human AND last but not least getting the type of c that would lift your self esteem. LEARNING HOW TO BE HAPPY all on your own.... All so that you become the best man you can be, and bring more to the table to your wife, so she'd see that M to you now would be different than before. Remember those conversations at all?

Regardless, Anyone who feels he offers nothing to a woman "but love" is not offering much more than a charming homeless man. This is why we said the meetings and the c were so needed for you. Your self image sucks.

And that self image gets projected ALL the time in your posts here, and probably in your interactions with your wife, which you describe here, and which sound as if they come off as very needy and a big turn off.

So as much praying as you do, it does seem to focus a whole lot on her and for HER heart to change. How about praying that He guide YOU to become a man only a fool would leave and then you do whatever it takes, to learn how to be that man? There are resources God put out there for you; use them even if they make you uncomfortable. I mean, I specifically recall asking you months ago-- "what are you bringing to the table as a man?" and that question got nowhere.....it was forgotten other than your discussion/focus on money on occasion, and then today it's as if a light bulb went off and you declare now, that you are "bringing nothing to the table..." come on Kevin...

This is a statement, with content ONLY YOU control. Does that make sense? Do you see how only you can change the answer to that question? And you've had the time to do it.
I'm not much of a prayer "leader" so pardon me if I screw this up, but I'm sincerely asking....how about this one?

"Holy Father we ask that Kevin find guidance in your Word and Love for him; may he keep his focus, and not be lead astray by worries of yesterday or tomorrow, or by the enemies ways that point to jealousy, fear, and criticism. May Kevin receive your guidance with an open heart and mind; we pray that he opens his heart and mind to all that you send him as tools for guidance and strength, and that you strengthen him in his quest to be the best man he can be, so that he may become the man, husband and father You want him to become...and we ask this in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit..."

Good luck and God bless,
j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 08:29 PM
Stuck,

What I meant is I am not bugging W anymore. I am giving her the space she needs. I completely leave her alone now. I was very cheerful and confident last night when I picked up the kids even in the face of seeing her not give a crap that I am there.

She had mentioned earlier that she had let down her guard and it was a mistake because I brought up MC after she told me she was going to finish the D.

Now her guard is back up and has been ever since. Another stupid mistake on my part. I won't do that again and I haven't done it since. But contact is now limited to the exchange of the kids for pushing that.

But I got the message loud and clear. She cannot say that I am a problem for her anymore. I need to become a benefit to her now. But I can only do that by benefiting myself first.

I'm not going to got through the list of things again I have been doing. I am doing stuff other than just hanging out with friends.

I have enough self esteem to know that I could find someone else. But I am not looking to find someone else. I guess my self esteem does come into question when it comes to attracting W back after all the horrid mistakes I have made.

25,

Thank you for the prayer. And yes, I do pray each day that God changes me to be the Christian man, husband and father that I need to be. It is not at all relegated to just changing my W's heart.

I ask for strength, wisdom, guidance and to personally change me and do whatever it takes to change me so that my M can be restored and under God. I also pray for other standers and my family and friends, etc. I thank God for what he has blessed me with and I ask for forgiveness for the things I have done wrong among other things. I pray that he be with my kids each day and give them strength and guide them.

But yes, I need to bring more to the table. So I am working on that. I am exploring new things. I like to cook. I like learning how to dance. I like excercising and going on hikes. I'm not much of a TV watcher unless it is sports. But I have been getting back into movies with FaithfulH and I am enjoying those. I do a lot of listening to and reading of the bible. I prayed for some time that God would lead me to the church I should be at and I think he has. To my surprise W hasn't really met me with any resistance to it like I thought she would. She doesn't want anything to do with it. But she hasn't threatened me like she did months ago.

I also fast, but I do not telling anyone when I am as that is supposed to be private between me and God.

I have to get my inspection done on my car this weekend. I can't forget that again.

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 08:35 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Stuck

I have enough self esteem to know that I could find someone else. But I am not looking to find someone else. I guess my self esteem does come into question when it comes to attracting W back after all the horrid mistakes I have made

Kevin


Kevin, self-esteem is not about finding someone else. It's not about attracting your wife back. You're a broken record, my wife, my wife, my wife, blah, blah, blah.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 08:46 PM
I am making catalina chicken with portabello mushrooms and rice tonight. Since D11 is really into this stuff now, she is helping me. It is a lot of fun experimenting with foods now that I couldn't really do before.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 09:04 PM
Can anyone please go visit LR1's thread. He is needing some support as things seem to have taken a worse turn in his situation.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 09:58 PM
Everytime we bring up YOU and what you need to do for YOU as far as solution based counseling goes you tell us about what you are cooking or what you ate for lunch.

I am sorry, I am not knocking your faith and I am glad you do have faith but IMO you are using your faith/religion to avoid doing the real work you need to do on you.

You still talk about your W each day, almost each post. You just transfer one thing to the next... C'ing, AA, religion, BA job and nothing really gets done. It seems by you having faith in your religion (good thing) you feel you dont have to do the actual work that religion cannot provide you.

You must begin to live your life as if you are already divorced. I feel that is the only way you will get anywhere. And I dont mean go date or sleep with women, I mean live your life as a divorced man who chooses to remain single but is all on his own with your W NEVER coming back.

Its hard to keep up with you because you jump around so much, ignore the questions and answer with faith based responses, ignore the questions and tell us about your meals or you babble about your W and how to attract her back.

I am sort of at a loss on what else to say to you. I think everybody is.
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/27/09 10:06 PM
CityGirl,

How are you? Is everything still moving along in your sitch - regarding the separation agreement? How is your health?

I've been thinking about you, happy to see you've stopped by to try to tell Kevin AGAIN where and on what to focus. Not that he'll listen, very frustrating, as you know.

Okay, sorry for the hi-jack -- back to Kev's thread!

Stacy
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 06:14 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Stuck,

What I meant is I am not bugging W anymore. I am giving her the space she needs. I completely leave her alone now. I was very cheerful and confident last night when I picked up the kids even in the face of seeing her not give a crap that I am there.

She had mentioned earlier that she had let down her guard and it was a mistake because I brought up MC after she told me she was going to finish the D.

Now her guard is back up and has been ever since. Another stupid mistake on my part. I won't do that again and I haven't done it since. But contact is now limited to the exchange of the kids for pushing that.

But I got the message loud and clear. She cannot say that I am a problem for her anymore. I need to become a benefit to her now. But I can only do that by benefiting myself first.

I'm not going to got through the list of things again I have been doing. I am doing stuff other than just hanging out with friends.

I have enough self esteem to know that I could find someone else. But I am not looking to find someone else. I guess my self esteem does come into question when it comes to attracting W back after all the horrid mistakes I have made.

25,

Thank you for the prayer. And yes, I do pray each day that God changes me to be the Christian man, husband and father that I need to be. It is not at all relegated to just changing my W's heart.

I ask for strength, wisdom, guidance and to personally change me and do whatever it takes to change me so that my M can be restored and under God. I also pray for other standers and my family and friends, etc. I thank God for what he has blessed me with and I ask for forgiveness for the things I have done wrong among other things. I pray that he be with my kids each day and give them strength and guide them.

But yes, I need to bring more to the table. So I am working on that. I am exploring new things. I like to cook. I like learning how to dance. I like excercising and going on hikes. I'm not much of a TV watcher unless it is sports. But I have been getting back into movies with FaithfulH and I am enjoying those. I do a lot of listening to and reading of the bible. I prayed for some time that God would lead me to the church I should be at and I think he has. To my surprise W hasn't really met me with any resistance to it like I thought she would. She doesn't want anything to do with it. But she hasn't threatened me like she did months ago.

I also fast, but I do not telling anyone when I am as that is supposed to be private between me and God.

I have to get my inspection done on my car this weekend. I can't forget that again.

Kevin


Oh Kevin...my prayer for you, which I am glad you liked, somehow went right by your heart...I mean, the word "WIFE" is NOT in that prayer for a very good reason. When you still related all that I said simply to restoring the M, it was still about what you want and need. You put your desires into a prayer designed for reliance on God and somehow you made it a prayer more or less saying "Dear God, help me be good so that you can Show me HOW TO GET HER BACK," which isn't what the prayer was about...I mean, who am I to tell you what to pray for, but since I wrote it for you, let me say here's what I wished for you to learn from the prayer and where I was going with it, as succinctly as possible...

I was going with a "show me what YOU, God, want for MY LIFE" type of prayer, and that may not have much at all to do with your wife, other than as a co=parent, and even if it did, she has free will.

So, in sum The prayer was about you leaning on HIM FOR ALL and NOT LEANING ON HER, AT ALL..

Oh, when you ignore the tough questions you are asked, and switch topics to superficial ones like "The FOOD Channel, by Kevin", it's such bad conflict avoidance I have to wonder how you resolve conflict in your life. I really really do. It's as if you are really shutting us off the way you stop attending things that are uncomfortable AND don't mention doing so to others unless really pinned down. You ignore the truly tough work, as I said you were doing with religion and I do think you are hiding behind it so you can avoid the tough stuff, just as I said earlier and as CG just said again, and I suspect you will blurt out someting in response about how great God is, and who will argue against that? Many of us, myself included, are believers. But that doesn't mean we don't help ourselves, (as we are biblically instructed to do, Kevin)...so Don't deflect or minimize your issues, we see through it. As a believer, it bothers me also b/c I know there are good hearted agnostics and non-believers here who are seeking out guidance, and when some sweeping comment about your faith is blurted out as a broad brush approach and deflection from the real work, it helps NO ONE and frankly, it embarrasses me a tad. It is a deflection, and I'll leave it at that.

Stay on track. Or you will continue down the path where you make mistakes you made back in March, like mentioning MC to your w? ....come on now, of course she runs from that. Of course it's a setback and you knew it would be. But you don't control your urges to speak and you desparately grasp b/c you have prayed a few weeks and so you feel that you are what? "Due a miracle?" I mean again and again, we tell you your timeline is unrealistic and here we are, Again...but you cannot contain your neediness. That's why we say GET HELP!!

You knew we'd howl against you telling her this, so you did it without running it by us on purpose, (Think about that Kevin, after posting so much else here...)

...so that's where this whole weird dynamic of the "Kevin - the misbehaving child routine" comes into play, and you turn me and CG (and DW and who else? Stuck??) into the "scolding nuns/parents" (or maybe your strong willed diasppointed w??") I don't know!

I'm no psych, but I've talked to one on many occasions so it's not an insult from me to say, Kevin, you need a shrink, b/c this dynamic is really odd and Unhealthy and oh sooo old and familiar now and so dull and repetitive. Your wife must have been incredibly frustrated.

You will eventually need to learn the skills to cope with the pain of dealing with the new reality,(which ain't so "new" now) i.e.,[b] NO, YOU CANNOT HAVE YOUR OLD LIFE BACK..None of us can....

Not that God or time won't bring you happiness in some form, but you seem to want it packaged in old wrapping, and that packaging is gone. We all had to learn this and deal with our new realities...all of us Kevin, we all did. Longer M's, more kids, way less money, no jobs, bad health problems, worse situations by far in some cases....somehow we ALL learned that we had to recreate what we could with WHAT IS, not what once was, or might have been....and It has been 'your turn' to do the same, for some time now... [/b]

And as CG says, you should stop the way you bypass the deeper questions, and pretend not to notice or grasp the meaning of our real questions, so you can just change channels and say "we are now turning on the superficial and SAFE for discussion, "Food channel!"....what gives with that behavior?

Kevin, can you make a prayer to God that does not include the word "wife" or the desire for getting her back? just ONE prayer that doesn't include your wants/needs about her?

If not, think about why that is.

You know how unattractive, ineffective and counter productive it is, so what's up with still doing it?

It' why we say, "you don't get it". So yeah, I think you need serious c, and don't see how on earth the AA meetings could hurt you at all. I still feel that way. When I see these posts of yours, I feel it more.

Good luck, Kevin, and listen WELL to Faithfulh and not just the "happy parts" okay? his story was a long tough one, not all happy and go lucky...same with me and mine, and we are all works in progress as are our marriages, if we are lucky. Patience, and acceptance of what IS, and dealing with what IS, is NOT a lack of faith. It's a healthy response to life and reflects faith that God WILL be with YOU, regardless of her choices....

j-
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 11:15 AM
what you have for dinner last night, kevin?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 01:57 PM
I took my girls out for pizza since I got back so late from talking with my priest. The chicken will be cooked tonight.

25,

I understand what you are saying. I was talking about other stuff such as what I am making for dinner to start focusing on other things. It was just my way of looking at other stuff going on that I can get excited about instead of talking about the obvious situation. It was a bit of a practice excercise for me to not focus on one thing.

Today is a beautiful day. The sun is out shining. God made it a lovely day. My dad closes on his house today in Florida and then he will head to Charlotte where he will hang out with my sister and her family for a while so that he can figure out what he wants to do with his life next.

Day 1.

Kevin
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 02:32 PM
Originally Posted By: CityGirl
Everytime we bring up YOU and what you need to do for YOU as far as solution based counseling goes you tell us about what you are cooking or what you ate for lunch.

I am sorry, I am not knocking your faith and I am glad you do have faith but IMO you are using your faith/religion to avoid doing the real work you need to do on you.

You still talk about your W each day, almost each post. You just transfer one thing to the next... C'ing, AA, religion, BA job and nothing really gets done. It seems by you having faith in your religion (good thing) you feel you dont have to do the actual work that religion cannot provide you.

You must begin to live your life as if you are already divorced. I feel that is the only way you will get anywhere. And I dont mean go date or sleep with women, I mean live your life as a divorced man who chooses to remain single but is all on his own with your W NEVER coming back.

Its hard to keep up with you because you jump around so much, ignore the questions and answer with faith based responses, ignore the questions and tell us about your meals or you babble about your W and how to attract her back.

I am sort of at a loss on what else to say to you. I think everybody is.


Kevin - I can't agree more with what CG has written here. I actually think you should go have lunch or dinner with a woman. Not romantic or anything like that - just as friends. I did that and took me right out of my funk. You have to recognize that life goes on. And that you will attract members of the opposite sex and that you do have something to offer women.

I think FIB pointed out to me early in my sitch that maybe 5% of us save our M's. That hit me like a ton of bricks.

Everyone here is telling you the same thing - DETACH. Lovingly Detach. We can't all be wrong, right? LOL.

Bro, it is hard. I think it's incredibly noble that you are standing by your W, and love her so much. That's awesome and says a ton about your character. But at some point, you need to focus on YOU. And i'm not talking about cooking meals., I'm talking about living. You need to start living again. Bro, I'm telling you that your W will never see you as attractive if she even has a hint of what everyone else sees here.

Let go of the rope....Detach....Get busy living...

You can handle it.

Mules
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 03:10 PM
I understand what you are saying mules.

However, I am not interested in finding someone else of the opposite sex. I didn't make a covenant with someone else for life.

Perhaps the number of returning S's is so low because so many people give up to early. Sometimes it takes years and years for things to turn around. Also, maybe they did not continue to pray and turn to God and be faithful and make him #1 during that time. I don't know. I don't have any idea what other people's situations and beliefs are. I just know what mine are.

Lovingly detach, yes. Live my life right now, yes. Give up, no. Does Jesus give up on us? No, he doesn't. Am I hiding behind religion? No. Do I need to focus on it more for me? Yes. But to quit praying for that person whom I will not mention, I can't do that. To quit standing in the gap for my prodigal, I can't do that.

Build my life as it is right now, yes. Much work to be done there. Lose my faith in God's promises, no.

Free will, free will, free will. Yes, God gives everyone free will. However, that doesn't mean he can't and won't influence people. I give you Saul who was converted to Paul. I give you Jonah who refused and ran from God. Did not a whale swallow him up and still take him where God wanted him? Could these people have still chosen their free will? Yes, they could have. But God was able to persuade them to do His will. So to say that God can't or won't intervene is a lack of faith in prayer. I think that God expects us to stand in the gap no matter what and keep praying and having faith in him to restore our M's since we made a covenant with him. A lot of times that requires a great deal of patience which I am having to learn and changing on my part. This isn't running to God to get out of having to work on me. It is turning to God in faith and also asking that he change me by providing the resources I need to do his will and be the H I need to be and father I need to be and Christian I need to be. It also means not seeking comfort in man, but in God. The bible says cursed is the man who seeks comfort in men and blessed is the man who seeks comfort in God. Obviously that is something that I am having to work on as to not seek comfort in my W but seek it in God. It is a growing process and part of faith.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 03:33 PM
The thing is, Kevin, you have NOT detached and you have not even started to even try and detach. That is the crux of the issue that we are all trying to point out to you on a daily/hourly basis.

You still wondering where your W is going and what she is doing is not being detached. You still have emotional breakdowns of some sort when ya'll exchange the kids is not detaching. You are still thinking (if not saying it to her) about MC so you are not detached. You constantly saying she doesnt care about you or notice anything is not being detached. Just the other day you said how much better thing would be if you and your W would have been together to help each other out when your D was sick. Again, not detached. You are a single father right now but your first thought was your W and not how to find a solution as a single dad. That is not detachement.

So you say you *are* detacing when in fact you have not even started to. And that is where the solutions based C'ing comes in. Standing for your marriage is fine if that is your choice and doing so from a religious standpoint is fine if you so choose but you do need to add another element in the mix that will provide you with structured solutions and goals that have nothing to do with religion. That was the entire point of the C you saw or AA.

I still stand by my observation that you have chosen religion as your foundation so you can avoid the solution aspect of building a new you. There is a way to incorporate the two and have a far better outcome for YOU.

And I dont think its an unreasonable question to ask your priest... if he supports you standing from your marriage from a religious standpoint why he is not supporting you to seek out solution based counseling for YOU as an individual? IMO religion is a wonderful life foundation but does not provide you with the solution based help you need - IMO, once again, its avoidance on your part.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 03:44 PM
My Codependent No More audio book arrives today. Hopefully that will give me a good starting point. I'm looking forward to getting into it.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 03:50 PM
I feel like again you opted not to dive into the post I made.

Books are fine and can be a good starting point but most of us who are having a very hard time learning to detach need some structure and accountability. That is where a C comes in. They will be able to help you chart your progress, explore your triggers and fears, give you homework to do and really put you on a new path that right now you do not have the ability to get yourself on.

I feel like I am beating a dead horse.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 03:51 PM
Detaching doesn't mean you stop thinking about your S. It simply means you don't put your life on hold while you wait for the outcome you are praying for. There is a lot of work out there that I know God would like me to do for myself, my kids, as well as for others. I have a job that must go on. I have a home that must be kept up with. I have kids that need a strong father there for them. I need to do things with them. I have my own spiritual growth that I cannot neglect.

Life must continue while you continue to pray for your prodigal to return. That is where I am having to push my way through but at the same time not lose hope and give up.

FaithfulH didn't give up. He detached lovingly. He continued to do what he needed and made the changes within himself that he needed. But he did not give up and did not quit praying for his M to be restored. He kept faith no matter how bleak it looked. He continued to stand in the gap for his M while doing everything else he needed to do.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 03:57 PM
Quote:
I feel like again you opted not to dive into the post I made.


I read everything you said. I agree that there are tools that help out in this process. I am picking up some tools starting with this book. I will continue to explore more tools.

I definitely get accountability here. I get it from my kids. I get it from my W by her reactions or lack there of. I get it from FaithfulH. I get it from God. When me and my priest discuss it which is not often, I get it from him. I am still thinking over the AA thing. I am also thinking over the gym which isn't to far away and a decent price so I can lift weights.

I only have so much time to read this, read that, do this, do that, etc. So I am picking and choosing what fits in best for myself.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 03:58 PM
I am not going to argue anymore with you about this. You dont just think about your W - you obsess and chatter. Wasnt it just a few weeks ago you were thinking of having a 3rd party call her to invite her to a marriage saving seminar?

I see a difference, clearly you do not.

I have been at this for 19 months. I am very clear on the definition of detachement. Yes, I think about my H from time to time but I dont wonder about what he is doing, I dont talk about how good he looks on the rare occasion I see him and I dont think about how much easier it would be if we could work as a team (as you thought just a few days ago regarding your D and her being sick). As observers to your posts, we see things you do not see. And when they are pointed out to you, to be used as a learning or eye opening tool, you quote scripture. So I think we have reached a stalemate. Thats cool.

Like I said - you and I have different definitions. Do what you like. Its your life and your future. But you may consider drawing on some of the "vets" experience that have a different outlook instead of just sticking to the posters that agree with you 110%. Diversity does have its place in the learning and growing process.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 04:03 PM
Quote:
Diversity does have its place in the learning and growing process.


I agree with that. And I am not discounting it at all. And I am trying to sift through things.

Kevin
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 04:15 PM
K- Please understand. I am not telling you to give up on your M. I would never do that. I am not telling you to go have an affair. Would never do that either. I'm telling you that from what I can see and everyone else can see you are nowhere near being detached. Not even close. And if you ever want a chance at saving your M, you need to be bro. That's all. We're here to help. Don't want you to make the same mistakes we did. Read more threads. Read DR again. Those who were successful, detached. It's that simple. Give yourself the best opportunity to be successful. You know what? You'll feel better too.

Bro, you're making the same mistakes I did. I hope you step back and see that.

Mules
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 07:27 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I understand what you are saying mules.

However, I am not interested in finding someone else of the opposite sex. I didn't make a covenant with someone else for life.

NO one asked you to "make a covenant with OW..." you reduce things too much and oversimplify, but hey, it's your life.But don't put words into others mouths...

Perhaps the number of returning S's is so low because so many people give up to early. Sometimes it takes years and years for things to turn around. Also, maybe they did not continue to pray and turn to God and be faithful and make him #1 during that time. I don't know. I don't have any idea what other people's situations and beliefs are. I just know what mine are.

Don't know where you got the 5% number...so can't respond. Except to say that most people repeat the same mistakes they made earlier....


Lovingly detach, yes. Live my life right now, yes. Give up, no. Does Jesus give up on us? No, he doesn't. Am I hiding behind religion? No. Do I need to focus on it more for me? Yes. But to quit praying for that person whom I will not mention, I can't do that. To quit standing in the gap for my prodigal, I can't do that.

Stop putting words into my mouth and stop oversimplifying other's comments. You are not that superficial and we sure aren't. YOu know darn well what you are avoiding...

Build my life as it is right now, yes. Much work to be done there. Lose my faith in God's promises, no.
[i]Who asked you to do that? No one. Stop reducing our comments to anti-Christian bigotry. IT deflects from you having to answer legit questions designed to help YOU.
[/i]

Free will, free will, free will. Yes, God gives everyone free will.

INcluding you, yet you won't exercise it. You keep doing the same thing which is hiding behind your new found faith to avoid confronting your all too human problems. And refusing to work on them.

However, that doesn't mean he can't and won't influence people. I give you Saul who was converted to Paul. I give you Jonah who refused and ran from God. Did not a whale swallow him up and still take him where God wanted him? Could these people have still chosen their free will? Yes, they could have. But God was able to persuade them to do His will. So to say that God can't or won't intervene is a lack of faith in prayer.

NO ONE SAID "GOD CAN'T OR WON'T"...STOP ARGUING THAT. It's insulting and untrue and again, you use this everytime to hide behind, and to act as if your beliefs are being attacked; they are not.

I think that God expects us to stand in the gap no matter what and keep praying and having faith in him to restore our M's since we made a covenant with him. A lot of times that requires a great deal of patience which I am having to learn and changing on my part. This isn't running to God to get out of having to work on me. It is turning to God in faith and also asking that he change me by providing the resources I need to do his will and be the H I need to be and father I need to be and Christian I need to be.

[[color:#CC0000]i]"faith that he'll help you "By providing the Resources??? RESOURCES??? You mean like going to AA meetings, or talking to a C, or a T or coming HERE to this site and yet not taking any or SOME of the advice given? Those resources? We are all around you and so are those resources, but, "There are none so blind as those with eyes- who refuse to see..."
[/i]

[/color]
It also means not seeking comfort in man, but in God. The bible says cursed is the man who seeks comfort in men and blessed is the man who seeks comfort in God. Obviously that is something that I am having to work on as to not seek comfort in my W but seek it in God. It is a growing process and part of faith.

Kevin


did you hear a word of what we said? I submit your communication problems are well identified HERE and probably represent a significant pattern in your marriage, from which you might learn, if you opened your eyes and heart and stopped waiting for God to write letters in the sky. HIS messages are all around you but you don't want to see them...so you "Wait in faith" (your words) for the message YOU WANT and until you get that....you'll hear nothing... I am not a priest or a nun, but I don't know if I'd call that faith.
Definitely stubborness of some sort. I mean you have refused to avail yourself of the numerous resources CG has sent you, (COUNTLESS), or the meetings we have suggested (resource) but b/c you were too good for them and couldn't figure out how to shop around to find another group, I THEN LISTED WAYS TO DO SO (= resource) and the c, (also a resource in hersef) and when you chose not to see the "too young" for you C, and eventually told us that you were not seeing him anymore...we gave you advice about how to find another one = RESOURCE, so, that comment about you hoping "God sends you the resources", or words to that effect, really throws me for a loop. Almost made me laugh.

j-
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 07:37 PM
Hey Kevin.

Whats so great about your wife anyway?
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 07:46 PM
Perhaps you've heard the story of the man caught in a flood who had a deep faith in God. As the flood waters rose, his neighbors told him, "You have to leave, the flood is going to wash everything away."

Calmly, the man replied, "It's not a problem, God will save me."

As the waters continued to rise to the second floor of the man's house, a boat came by with rescuers. They said, "Quickly, get in, the flood is going to wash everything away."

Again the man replied, "It's not a problem, God will save me."

As the flood worsened, the man was forced to climb onto the roof of his home. A helicopter came, threw down a ladder and the rescuers said, "Climb up. The flood is about to wash everything away."

One more time, the man said, "It's not a problem, God will save me."

Finally, the flood washed everything away, and the man drowned.

When he reached heaven, he saw God. The first thing he asked was, "Lord, I was so certain you would save me, what happened?"

Very perplexed, God said to the man, "I just don't know, I sent neighbors, a boat and a helicopter to save you."
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 07:55 PM
Great post, Volleydog!

God is there for you but he has sent you *many* positive things that you will not participate in, stick to or even give a chance.

I find it most alarming that you think you have detached from your W.

Have all the faith you want but use that faith as a source of strength to use the resources that are being provided to you. If you use BOTH in conjunction with one another you will have a life altering experience. Why wont you even consider it?

You say you cant read books because your mind wanders so you listen to books on audio. That alone should tell you that you need guidance and structure on how to focus with multiple resources.

With all due respect you are started to sound so preachy its getting hard to even read your posts. Its avoidance and until you realize that, realize you *can* do both, I think your support system will drain quickly. Sorry to say that but I think it is true.

Its almost insulting to ask you questions that are reasonble and have merit and meaning and for you to respond with a preachy post about religion. The more you throw yourself into this mindset the further back you set yourself UNLESS you begin to incorporate more solution based tactics. So far your plan has been religion and pills. You need more. We all do. We are ALL still trying to work with you but you block us at every turn. How much longer do you think that will continue?

This may sound ugly but its the harsh truth. We have asked how we can help you and you say be patient. We have been patient. Very patient. But you need to put some work in the process as well and that work invovles solutions that are therapy based on structure, guidance and proven methods and techniques.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 08:08 PM
Aside from the praying, has your priest friend recommended anything else?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 09:29 PM
Other than not thinking about my W, I'm doing fine. I am working. I'm doing things I like. I socialize quite well when I leave the apartment. I am making friends. I socialize fine at work. I take care of my responsibilities.

While I miss my W its not stopping me from functioning and doing things. I am starting to do more than I used to. I am slowly getting through this. I'm not as bad off as I used to be. I am plenty able to go out and have a good time with other people. I leave W alone. I don't have the most active life in the world, but then I have never been the most active person in the world. But I am enjoying friends when I don't have my kids and when I do have my kids I enjoy my time with them.

Ok yes. It is hard to see W knowing the state of mind she is in. But I am keeping it together in front of her. And I do want any opportunity to put my best foot forward.

Stuck, we haven't talked about it recently.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 09:33 PM
We had started out talking about it, but have been focused on learning more about the faith now.

The fact that I am looking forward to making new things for dinners and doing things is a big plus for me. I could have cared less some time ago about anything. I am finding enjoyment in things again.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/28/09 09:51 PM
All those are good things and I hope all goes well.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/29/09 02:43 PM
Day 1 (again).

Kevin
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/29/09 02:57 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Other than not thinking about my W, I'm doing fine. I am working. I'm doing things I like. I socialize quite well when I leave the apartment. I am making friends. I socialize fine at work. I take care of my responsibilities.

While I miss my W its not stopping me from functioning and doing things. I am starting to do more than I used to. I am slowly getting through this. I'm not as bad off as I used to be. I am plenty able to go out and have a good time with other people. I leave W alone. I don't have the most active life in the world, but then I have never been the most active person in the world. But I am enjoying friends when I don't have my kids and when I do have my kids I enjoy my time with them.

Ok yes. It is hard to see W knowing the state of mind she is in. But I am keeping it together in front of her. And I do want any opportunity to put my best foot forward.

Stuck, we haven't talked about it recently.

Kevin


Ok Kev - this is a a start. You are showing some of the mindset in this post that all of us are talking about.

This is what I am going to ask you to do. Look at every post you have done in the last 3 days. You mention your W in every single paragraph. Even in the one I'm quoting above.

Can you start posting without mentioning her at all? We all know how much you love her. Nobody is questioning that, nobody is telling you not to. What we want you to do is start loving yourself.

Can you post to us things you do for you for the next few days? You are mentioning socializing with friends. That to me is the best thing you can do to start detaching. Become more sociable. Maybe that is a great 180 for you that you have not thought of. You say that you are slowly getting through this. Maybe you can push yourself to pick up the pace. Fill your calendar-for YOU. Become more of an active person. It's healthy, both physically and spiritually. Invite people out. Invite people over. Go bike riding. Go for a walk. Go jogging. Hit golf balls. Take your kids camping. Take your kids canoeing. Take your kids to the movies and for ice cream, with a friend and his/her kids. Have a BBQ at your house. Throw a party for the heck of it. Go bowling. Play tennis with someone. Visit a park or a museum you haven't been to. Take the kids to the zoo. Go for a boat ride. Go up in a hot air balloon. Go parasailing. Go fishing. Go to a crappy restaurant and eat junk and drink some beer. Play cards with the boys. Buy some new clothes. Get a different haircut. Go to the music store and try some different genre. Get a bluray player and start a new collection. Find some non-fiction books that you can pour yourself into before you go to bed at night - I recommend James Patterson and the Alex Cross series. Buy the Box set on some TV series that you though you would like but never had the time to watch. Take a cooking class. Buy the kids one of those toy planes that makes a lot of noise. Get a dog if you don't have one. You get the idea.

Enjoy Kevin. Find out there is more to him than meets the eye.

Try.

Strength and Honor.

Mules
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/29/09 06:14 PM
I think it is about time for the hair to get cut again. I'm trying to figure out what I am going to have for dinner tonight. I don't have the kids tonight.

D7 and I went to the park where the nature hike is last night. We got about part way down and D7 decided she'd had enough. So we walked back to the beginning and she had met another girl on a scooter that was about her age and they swung together and played at the park together for a while. I just kind of hung out. D11 didn't want to go because she was not feeling well. So she stayed home.

Maybe I will go visit LA Fitness tonight and see about getting signed up there.

I'm thinking I am going to take the girls to chucky cheese on saturday. Maybe we will go on the nature hike first on Saturday. We could hit the pool saturday night. There is also a family barbq going on Saturday for a meetup group. I might do that with them.

I could just end up spending some quality alone time with Kevin tonight.

Kevin
Posted By: Orich Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/29/09 06:23 PM
Hey Kevin, I used to be a confirmed couch potato. I joined Planet Fitness gym during the Great Sadness, and it was the best thing I could have done. Now, I get upset if I miss a day!
Join the gym. Working out helps get rid of pent-up frustrations of any type. Plus, for me it was good to be in a place full of strangers who don't know what I am going through. It gives you a place to go when you want to get away from everything, because it is new and different. And, you keep in shape!
Try it!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/29/09 07:15 PM
Ya, I found that excercise is a real mood booster for me. And I desparately need to lift weights. The only thing is I don't want to take time away from my girls. But I need to probably lift at least 3 times a week. I will have to work something out on the weeks when I have them so I can continue to get into shape. Walking is great and I enjoy it, but it doesn't do anything for the upper body.

I'm gonna run by there tonight. I printed out a free 3 day pass.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/29/09 08:08 PM
Originally Posted By: CityGirl
Great post, Volleydog!

God is there for you but he has sent you *many* positive things that you will not participate in, stick to or even give a chance.

I find it most alarming that you think you have detached from your W.

Have all the faith you want but use that faith as a source of strength to use the resources that are being provided to you. If you use BOTH in conjunction with one another you will have a life altering experience. Why wont you even consider it?

You say you cant read books because your mind wanders so you listen to books on audio. That alone should tell you that you need guidance and structure on how to focus with multiple resources.

With all due respect you are started to sound so preachy its getting hard to even read your posts. Its avoidance and until you realize that, realize you *can* do both, I think your support system will drain quickly. Sorry to say that but I think it is true.

Its almost insulting to ask you questions that are reasonble and have merit and meaning and for you to respond with a preachy post about religion. The more you throw yourself into this mindset the further back you set yourself UNLESS you begin to incorporate more solution based tactics. So far your plan has been religion and pills. You need more. We all do. We are ALL still trying to work with you but you block us at every turn. How much longer do you think that will continue?

This may sound ugly but its the harsh truth. We have asked how we can help you and you say be patient. We have been patient. Very patient. But you need to put some work in the process as well and that work invovles solutions that are therapy based on structure, guidance and proven methods and techniques.


So CG, did you get an answer to any of this? I didn't get answers or comments or an acknowlegment to any of my last post here either....hmmm.
Nope, no patterns here.
j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/29/09 08:28 PM
25 and CG,

I read everything you both said. I'm not sure what answer you are looking for from me. It seems as if I am not delved into the C or AA then I am not making any progress. I guess focusing on other things and reading/listening to books is not enough.

How can you help me? I have gotten more help from feedback and resources here than I could ever have imagined. The support here has been amazing. It has been a blessing. I don't know what would have happened to me if not for this site. I have learned a great deal from this site.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/29/09 08:54 PM
This looks like a good book also.

"Change Your Life and Everyone In It" by Michelle Weiner-Davis.

Kevin
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/29/09 10:34 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Ya, I found that excercise is a real mood booster for me. And I desparately need to lift weights. The only thing is I don't want to take time away from my girls. But I need to probably lift at least 3 times a week. I will have to work something out on the weeks when I have them so I can continue to get into shape. Walking is great and I enjoy it, but it doesn't do anything for the upper body.

I'm gonna run by there tonight. I printed out a free 3 day pass.

Kevin

Kev, here is something you can do at home, even with your girls...
http://www.hundredpushups.com/
I'm on week 4 and its been fun and quiet challenging!!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/30/09 02:26 AM
ppenton,

That is an excellent site. You probably just saved me a bunch of money and time away from my girls. I'm going to do the challenge for push ups and squats. 6 weeks each. Nice. I love it.

Has it been producing results in muscle definition for you yet?

Tonight I spent an evening with Kevin. I do have to say what a fantastic guy Kevin is. He isn't so bad to be alone with.

I came home after work and ate some left overs from last nights dinner. Then I drove to LA Fitness and talked to them and got a tour of the place. I made no decisions tonight even though they tried to work it to get me to make a decision tonight. Typical sales people at a gym. Then I went to the nature trail I have been walking and walked 4 miles. Then I came home, picked up a 5 for $5 Arbys sandwiches and came back home and now I am typing on here.

During my 4 mile walk I thought about many things, none of which are worth mentioning. But I did do some praying and just analyzing of different things. I was also thanking the Lord for my blessings.

Its quiet tonight. But that is ok. I shouldn't have eaten all of those sandwiches, but they sure were good.

Tomorrow I get my kids back. I am going to see if I can get them to do the 6 week challenge with me. Although I don't know if they can since they will only be with me every other week. I can still give it a try with them though. I'm doing it myself none the less.

Kevin
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/30/09 03:16 AM
Hey Kev, not much in definition but am getting stronger, also I lift weights at the gym in my office building. I also bought the book and it just arrived. It has more exercises and ideas than there are on the web site. Good luck with your training.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/30/09 01:47 PM
Day 2.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/30/09 05:07 PM
Lunch time.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/30/09 05:38 PM
Maybe I could write a book. What to write on though? I could put together a book of my recipes. I could write a self help book. How to get help for yourself. How to know if you need help. If your life is in shambles, maybe you need some help.

hmm...

I could write a book on how to train your kids when you yourself are not trained. People might want to see my credentials though. Well, I can prove I am not trained and I can prove I have kids. The book could reflect the idea that we learn together.

I could write a book on America's best buffets. But then I might need to do more traveling than I can afford right now. That book will probably have to wait.

I've got it. I can write a book on "How To Suck At Golf". Aha. I can definitely write about that.

Putting one thumb in front of the other. Now that is a catchy title.

Ideas, ideas, ideas...

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/30/09 07:48 PM
Why not start out with something simple like a blog. You can get a free account at Blogger and write about whatever you like. It will help sharpen your writing skills and it may help you with your focus. Make a goal to post 3 entries per week.

A self help book? What would your advice be exactly?

You always seem to have so many ideas but you go for the BIG ideas right off the bat therefore nothing gets done. First it was the BA job, then the expensive scooter club and now writing a book.

Take your BIG idea and simplify it so you can accomplish it. If writing intersts you start your blog tonight. They are free, very easy to set up and it will at least give you an attainable focus for this latest idea.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/30/09 08:15 PM
A superb idea. I like it. I shall have to do some research on blog sites.

I can become the genius in my own mind that I always wanted to be and simply blog it.

BA thing is still on BTW.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 12:52 AM
I picked up my kids and took them to Krystal for dinner. Then we had milk shakes. Then we came home and played cards. It was fun. Now they are watching something on TV.

Tomorrow is Friday. YAY!!!

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 02:28 AM
Tonight the girls and I were doing out nightly devo and D7 asks to talk to me. I said sure, whats on your mind. She says it seems like something is missing and this doesn't feel like home anymore. I said what is that. What do we need to get to make it feel like home again. She said mom.

I didn't quite know what to say to that one. Any suggestions?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 02:46 AM
D7 fell asleep within a few minutes of saying this. I'm wondering if she was over tired.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 03:17 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Tonight the girls and I were doing out nightly devo and D7 asks to talk to me. I said sure, whats on your mind. She says it seems like something is missing and this doesn't feel like home anymore. I said what is that. What do we need to get to make it feel like home again. She said mom.

I didn't quite know what to say to that one. Any suggestions?

Kevin


You say, I know honey. I want her home, too. She is here in our thoughts and we can pray for her, too.

No need to deny that this is what you'd want. Keep it simple, though. Don't play the sympathy card accidentally on purpose.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 01:25 PM
Thanks Wifey,

That is pretty much what I decided to say. I appreciate the advice.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 01:46 PM
This morning while I was on my way to drop off my girls at the rec center, D7 says she wants to be homeschooled. So I tell her that I have to work and can't do that. Then she says if me and mommy get back together, mommy could stay home and homeschool them while I worked.

I said ya. That would be a possibility.

I am all for homeschooling but haven't really talked about it with my girls. I was surprised she brought it up and was thinking it through.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 02:12 PM
Hey Kevin, please get some counseling for your daughters. please. and dont stall on this. please. their toughts and issues and concerns go further than they are talking to you about. someone at your church may be able to help. search them out. asap. please.

this happened to me: my daughter was withdrawling, i noticed but she wouldnt talk about it. my son was refusing to sleep in his own bed. even though I would make him get in his own bed at night, he would wait till I fell asleep then snuck and got in bed with me. one night I was woken up to a punch in the head, then several more punches, scratches, screaming. my wife went off the deep end. I went to the police filed a DIR. a couple days later I come home, my wife had left my daughter home alone, and there is a cop car in the driveway. My daughter was picked up walking down the street carrying duffle bags. for all the crap I have had to deal with these past few years this for me was god awful hardest thing to stomach.

you have enough to work out for yourself with right now. help your kids to learn how to deal with this correctly. and whatever you do. DO NOT use this a reason to talk to your wife about why the two of you need to get back together. you will find alot of resentment and anger directed towards you. Steve.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 02:17 PM
i sense your kids are really confused right now; that is why i brought this up. my daughter would say the same things about wanting mamma and daddy to get along and being a family again. I wasnt able to explain to her in the correct way that it is not always easy.
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 02:17 PM
Hey Kev - Just wanted to pop in and say hi. Was out of commission on the golf course yesterday with some clients.

A couple of things: Just wanted to say that I am proud of you. I just read a number of posts from you with no mention of whatshername. That's great bro and it is progress. Your PMA sounds better also. Do you notice a difference?? Do you feel a little stronger? Because it's going to get better and better.

Regarding the kids. I think what KJ told you is very important. Please pay attention to what she said about playing the sympathy card. I would make sure when these questions come up that you reassure her that both mommy and daddy love her very much and that is never going to change.

Have you considered selling the house and moving to get a fresh start?? I would also consider putting the girls in therapy. Just a few thoughts.

Keep up the good work!

Strength and Honor.

Mules
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 02:29 PM
Thanks.

We don't own a house. We had one in Florida and sold it. Little did I know the real reason back then. Anyways, that person which must not be mentioned rents the house from her mom and step dad and I am in an apartment.

I thought D7 was doing better. But this is coming back up again. She also seems to really be having trouble talking out her emotions. She finds it hard to spit out the words regarding her feelings on this. Sometimes she will start a sentence and then stop and say nevermind. I try to continue to draw it out of her to finish her sentence. I'm not always successful. I do tell the girls that both mommy and daddy love them. But D7 in particular seems to be bringing it up more and more all of a sudden again. D11 seems to be doing fine or just not saying anything if she isn't.

I'm not going to bring it up to that person which must not be mentioned. It wouldn't do any good and would just like you said bring resentment and make things worse.

I'm going to have to look back into C again for D7 at the minimum and probably D11 as well.

This isn't easy on them. Heck, it is not easy on me, so how could it possibly be easy on them?

And yes, I am trying to avoid talking about that certain someone.

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 02:34 PM
Kevin,

CityGirl, 25, Stuck and I all pointed out your D's need for counseling MONTHS ago. I seem to remember you posting that you'd made phone calls, etc. So I take it that you never followed through on that?

If your daughter brings up homeschooling again, I'd talk to her about what it takes to homeschool. Not every parent is qualified or capable of doing it. It takes a huge commitment on the part of the homeschooling parent. Even if you and W got back together, doesn't seem like you could get by on one salary anyway. Haven't you both been working for awhile?

Get your girls help, Kevin. Follow up on something for your daughters.

Stacy
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 02:35 PM
Quote:
I'm not going to bring it up to that person which must not be mentioned. It wouldn't do any good and would just like you said bring resentment and make things worse.


You should bring it up to her, WITHOUT trying to place blame...This is about your k's health and BOTH parents need to be involved in that.
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 02:39 PM
Originally Posted By: davidswife
Kevin,

CityGirl, 25, Stuck and I all pointed out your D's need for counseling MONTHS ago. I seem to remember you posting that you'd made phone calls, etc. So I take it that you never followed through on that?

If your daughter brings up homeschooling again, I'd talk to her about what it takes to homeschool. Not every parent is qualified or capable of doing it. It takes a huge commitment on the part of the homeschooling parent. Even if you and W got back together, doesn't seem like you could get by on one salary anyway. Haven't you both been working for awhile?

Get your girls help, Kevin. Follow up on something for your daughters.

Stacy


Kev - it is SO important. You have so many people looking out for you here. Please follow advice on this one.

I don't want to overstep, but homeschooling in my opinion takes away the social aspect that your girls may very much need right now. Again, way out of my league. Please talk to therapist.

Mules
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 02:39 PM
Originally Posted By: volleydog
Quote:
I'm not going to bring it up to that person which must not be mentioned. It wouldn't do any good and would just like you said bring resentment and make things worse.


You should bring it up to her, WITHOUT trying to place blame...This is about your k's health and BOTH parents need to be involved in that.


VD - Thanks for doing a much better job of saying this!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 02:50 PM
Ok. I am going to start looking back into it again. I am worried that D7 is thinking about it so much and that it is really bothering her. I know it is bothering her when she can't even finish saying what she is trying to tell me. Its on her mind that much.

As far as homeschooling goes, I couldn't homeschool them right now anyways. I grew up around the homeschooling environment so I am aware of all the positives from it and what is required. They wouldn't be without socialization as there are all kinds of homeschooling groups that get together and do things regularly as well as staying involved at church. But that is a whole other story that is simply not an option right now.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 04:38 PM
Quote:
A couple of things: Just wanted to say that I am proud of you. I just read a number of posts from you with no mention of whatshername.


Mules,

With my 12 year anniversary 2 days away, I would be lying if I said it was not on my mind as well as ML. But I am doing the best I can by trying to focus on other things.

Thanks,

Kevin
Posted By: Orich Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 04:49 PM
Kevin, my 9 year anniversary is August 5, and my birthday is August 3. I am right there with you, man. Both nights were always "special" nights for me. After months of nights of no ML, it is HEAVY on my mind. Of course, more heavily on my mind, and more heartbreaking, is that nevermind ML, I won't get the ILY I always got on our anniversary. Sad. But like you said, focus on other things. Easier said than done, but we gotta try, right?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 05:02 PM
I am in agreement Orich. The ILY would be nice to hear also. You have a double whammy. My birthday is not until the end of September so I have some space in between each.

I am happy that I am going to get some good sushi Sunday night. And I do have all day with my kids until I return them Sunday evening. We are probably going to watch a movie at home tonight and then go out and do something tomorrow. We are going to make some frozen pizza's tonight and eat some candy during the movie.

At least it is Friday. The weekend is almost upon us. Sometimes I am not sure how I feel about that. lol. Is it a TGIF or is it something else?

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 05:18 PM
Kevin -

Its important that you answer this... why did you NOT follow through with getting your little girls counseling? I find it hard to believe it has to do with money because almost each day you post how you go out to eat, or, at the very least you go out to eat multiple times a week. Did you think somehow your girls would be okay over time. Especially when they saw you fall apart as you did in front of them many times by saying things that were not really appropriate.

IMO your daughter wanting to be home schooled is just another way for her to withdraw from "real life" which is a very telling sign. It is also my opinion that its a ploy to try and get you and your W back together because she knows one parent would need to stay home.

You bailed on counseling but dont bail on your kids urgent need to go to counseling ASAP. Work on this with right now and get them an appt early next week no matter what you have to do. Or, put your tail between your legs and call the C you saw and see if has a resource for your kids.

They are in a vulnerable position with a ton of change and at the age where things start getting confusing (puberty, the "tween" years) and they are still very formative. Do right by them and do it now!
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 05:23 PM
NO MORE TALKING ABOUT W, ML ETC.

we are slipping up folks!!!!!!!!

how many pushups can you do????
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 05:29 PM
Got it.

I am taking my initial push up test tonight. After looking at the schedule, I am going to be doing those and squats Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. That way I can stay on the weekly schedule instead of starting midweek.

Why did I not put them in C? They seemed to be doing better so I thought. But now D7 is bringing it up again and more frequently. I spoke with a C this morning who is going to put me in touch with a C that is great for these kinds of situations. It is $80 an hour. I figure I can pay half and the other parent can pay half if she goes along with it. I don't like her choice of C that she picked last time. So we will see what she says about this.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 06:11 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
They seemed to be doing better so I thought.


I taught the same thing. man i was wrong.

nothing through the church for less or free? there has to be something or someone they can refer you to.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 07:19 PM
You thought your d's were getting better? What can we possibly say to that? Get them enrolled in c, asap b/c now it's summertime. Does NOT Matter if YOU think "they're doing better" b/c 1) you don't know what is going on with them, as they won't and CAN'T tell YOU all their feelings; 2) they would need c in the best of circumstances as ALL kids do, and 3) nearly all judges want to see it and it'd look better for you to be the one making it happen, and finally, as for the choice of c, why didn't you like the other one? B/C they didn't address whether the divorce was right or wrong? That is not their job. The c's are there for the kids and getting them through the worst experience of THEIR lives....it is NOT their job to fix your M...

Choose a c that your kids are comfortable with. Not you, not your w,
but the kids. They're the ones who need to be helped. You can get your own c, and so can your w.


As for homeschooling, which I actually considered when we lived in Alaska, you can't figure out why that's impractical for you? ASIDE from your w wanting a divorce,...you cannot afford to homeschool. She earns more money and according to you, that is hugely important to her, and you said yourself that you don't earn enough to support your family just now. So, you are saying if only she'd quit her job, and stay home and become a teacher (without pay), then all would be well? And you don't see any other issues that could arise? Of course you can.

Why can't you tell the kids that it isn't practical EVEN IF you were together? It's not b/c of your w's choice to end the M...

The reality is that it is NOT EASY to homeschool and takes an enormous amount of patience on the parent's end AND the kids', and with two kids not the same age, or temperament, you'd be putting your wife into a sainthood category. Plus she likes her job or at least the life style it affords her. Not so fair and not so realistic or practical. So why not explain THAT to your d's? Oh and the fact that they would not see their friends? Or have a social life without a lot of extra work on your w's part b/c she'd have to take them everywhere to meet up with other kids, and their sports or art class or whatever other thing their schools offer, that they would lose with homeschooling...

Plus, for our family, even with all our schooling I'd be hiring a tutor (or 3) by the time the kids hit high school...so no, it's not the easy thing that kids think when they want "to be held more" so to speak.
Not all the problems in your kids lives are related to your w's choices or the divorce. Your kids increased needs are of course being affected by
the divorce, but they have to be addressed with c and whatever the c suggests, but Homeschooling? The desire for it may be due to the divorce but as a solution it is probably one of those things that won't fix your problems for reasons not related to the divorce. Explain that to the girls instead of sighing and lamenting, even if only to yourself. (Which I'm assuming was not shown to them, right?)

J-

PS Not having them in c at this point, after all these months, THIS is another example of what we mean when we say you don't listen or follow through or do what isn't comfortable for you. This situation is not about your comfort. This is a very good example of what we mean. I hope you wake up. Really soon.

Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 08:21 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
A couple of things: Just wanted to say that I am proud of you. I just read a number of posts from you with no mention of whatshername.


Mules,

With my 12 year anniversary 2 days away, I would be lying if I said it was not on my mind as well as ML. But I am doing the best I can by trying to focus on other things.

Thanks,

Kevin


Kev - You are a human being. Of course you are going to think of that stuff. I still do also. Just remember this - she is fully detached from you right now. Ok, it sux to know that, but she is. So those things aren't on top of her mind. But know this. It gets easier. The more you work at it and the harder you try, it will get easier. You are making progress Kevin. Focus on that. Get back to the bounce in your step that you had yesterday and this morning. You know what - my next court date is two weeks before my 18 anniversary. When I was in court my STBX pretended she couldn't remember what year we were married. It hurt, but I can't control that. What I can control is letting myself get caught up in that. I left court and went to the driving range. A half hour later I was trying to figure out why the heck I hit my irons so high, rather than something that I can't control. Keep letting go of the rope. As much as you can per day. You're doing better. Stay with it.

Recognize the emotions. You're a good man. You have nice memories. Start working on making new ones.

Strength and Honor.

Mules
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 07/31/09 11:39 PM
Update us on the progress you made today, regarding getting some counseling for your girls.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/01/09 12:00 AM
I have a counselor that wants to talk to me about my girls. She is willing to work with me on the fee scale. So I should be going in to talk to her next week. She got back with me later after I left work. I explained my situation with my girls. She wants to help in any way she can.

Kevin
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/01/09 12:01 AM
Hey Kevin

fancy meeting you. Hope you are doing well and have a nice w/e planned.

Do that which brings glory to our Father.

T
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/01/09 12:24 AM
I have to get this in.

W contacted me this afternoon. She wanted to talk about my girls not swimming everyday and their eating habits. She was upset that I had not made them swim every day. I said some days they aren't up for it and I also have a pool here that they use sometimes and I have been taking D7 on the nature trail and plan on taking D11 when she is past her time of the month. She said they need to be excercising anyways at the rec center and doing what all the other kids are doing. I didn't respond.

I said as far as eating goes, they don't eat that much. W said D7 is getting bigger and W said they need to be monitored then what they are eating at the rec center.

I said Ok. Thank you for telling me your concerns. She said ok.

Then she asked what we were up to this weekend. I explained what we are doing tonight and Sunday and I said Saturday is kind of up in the air depending on how D11 feels. W suggested I pick up some Midol for D11. So I did.

W's parents are out of town this weekend on a cruize. W is driving her moms car while W's van is in the shop for the second time. W started to tell me that she is worried about the money she may have to put into it and that she already put $400 into it and it still failed inspection. So she is waiting to hear back today. I said everything will be ok. Just pray about it. She said she is. She is just worried about it. I asked where she took the van and she said the dealership because she has a friend who got her a lower labor rate. I said good deal then.

That was pretty much the end of it. I don't know what she is worried about with as well off as she is. Maybe she doesn't want it to infringe on her lifestyle. I don't know. She hasn't been asking me for help on the health insurance that gets deducted out of her check each month. Other than that, I pay for half of the rest of the bills. I guess I consider that some form of child payment in the offsetting differences of salaries. Maybe she does to and thats why she hasn't asked for help in that area.

The deductible on that plan is nuts. Its like not even having health insurance unless you have a serious emergency like surgery or something. I think we would have been better off pocketing and saving the premiums in a separate account than paying for this plan. But she insisted, so ok.

Kevin
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/01/09 12:40 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I have a counselor that wants to talk to me about my girls. She is willing to work with me on the fee scale. So I should be going in to talk to her next week. She got back with me later after I left work. I explained my situation with my girls. She wants to help in any way she can.

Kevin

Make sure you contact her first thing Monday morning, so you can get the ball rolling quickly next week.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/01/09 01:02 AM
Quote:
You thought your d's were getting better? What can we possibly say to that?

I don't know. Yes, they seemed to be doing better. I guess I was wrong.They have periods where they seem find and other times when they don't.

Get them enrolled in c, asap b/c now it's summertime. Does NOT Matter if YOU think "they're doing better" b/c 1) you don't know what is going on with them, as they won't and CAN'T tell YOU all their feelings; 2) they would need c in the best of circumstances as ALL kids do, and 3) nearly all judges want to see it and it'd look better for you to be the one making it happen, and finally, as for the choice of c, why didn't you like the other one? B/C they didn't address whether the divorce was right or wrong? That is not their job. The c's are there for the kids and getting them through the worst experience of THEIR lives....it is NOT their job to fix your M...

Who am I kidding. Anything I say to this is going to be the wrong answer. I just didn't want my kids being told that there is nothing wrong with this situation and that everyone is better because of it. Thats a bunch of garbage being filled in their heads.

Choose a c that your kids are comfortable with. Not you, not your w,
but the kids. They're the ones who need to be helped. You can get your own c, and so can your w.

True.

As for homeschooling, which I actually considered when we lived in Alaska, you can't figure out why that's impractical for you? ASIDE from your w wanting a divorce,...you cannot afford to homeschool. She earns more money and according to you, that is hugely important to her, and you said yourself that you don't earn enough to support your family just now. So, you are saying if only she'd quit her job, and stay home and become a teacher (without pay), then all would be well? And you don't see any other issues that could arise? Of course you can.

Well, it wouldn't be the most fantastic lifestyle. But we could make it work. I don't see her giving up her lifestyle for it though.

Why can't you tell the kids that it isn't practical EVEN IF you were together? It's not b/c of your w's choice to end the M...

The reality is that it is NOT EASY to homeschool and takes an enormous amount of patience on the parent's end AND the kids', and with two kids not the same age, or temperament, you'd be putting your wife into a sainthood category. Plus she likes her job or at least the life style it affords her. Not so fair and not so realistic or practical. So why not explain THAT to your d's? Oh and the fact that they would not see their friends? Or have a social life without a lot of extra work on your w's part b/c she'd have to take them everywhere to meet up with other kids, and their sports or art class or whatever other thing their schools offer, that they would lose with homeschooling...

Umm... no. They would not lose that. A lot of schools work with homeschoolers now for those sort of activities. Take a look at the great Tim Tebow QB for the Florida Gators. He was homeschooled and aloud to participate in the football program with a school. He seems to have done ok. Infact, he is quite the leader of that football team. By the way, I am not a Gators fan and was disapointed that he chose that school. But that is another subject.

And if W wanted to work, then I could homeschool the kids. But yes, it would be work. And I am not saying that I am up for it. But plenty of other parents make it work on a single income. The people that lived across the street from us did and they had 7 kids and lived very practicle on a single income. My sister homeschools her kids and does quite well at it.


Plus, for our family, even with all our schooling I'd be hiring a tutor (or 3) by the time the kids hit high school...so no, it's not the easy thing that kids think when they want "to be held more" so to speak.

Didn't say it was. But it is a far superior education if done right and the kids learn how to study better and you avoid all the social garbage you get in a public school. I'm sorry, why do they need to be around those influences of drugs, sex, alcohol, other trouble stuff? I never bought into this theory that it was good for them to experience all aspects of the social life when growing up. Some things are better left not experienced. They in general are mature teenagers who become mature adults who by the way do very well in life and in the workforce. Quite a few start out college earlier as they can go at a much faster pace. If done right, its hands down the best way to go by far.

Not all the problems in your kids lives are related to your w's choices or the divorce. Your kids increased needs are of course being affected by
the divorce, but they have to be addressed with c and whatever the c suggests, but Homeschooling? The desire for it may be due to the divorce but as a solution it is probably one of those things that won't fix your problems for reasons not related to the divorce. Explain that to the girls instead of sighing and lamenting, even if only to yourself. (Which I'm assuming was not shown to them, right?)

No. It was not shown to them and I didn't say homeschooling would fix anything. Its not an answer to any problems at the moment considering the obvious situation. If things were great and the family dynamics and everything else were good, then it could be looked at as something worth doing for the kids. But since that is in no way shape or form where we are at right now, it obviously is not an option to even bother talking about.

J-

PS Not having them in c at this point, after all these months, THIS is another example of what we mean when we say you don't listen or follow through or do what isn't comfortable for you. This situation is not about your comfort. This is a very good example of what we mean. I hope you wake up. Really soon.

Ok. I don't know what else to say to that.

Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/01/09 04:48 AM
You know,

It really bothered me that W was basically crying on my shoulder about being worried about how much the van was going to cost to repair today. I wanted to help her, but at the same time, I knew that offering would get me no more than where I have been so far. So I didn't. But it also bothered me that she was worried about money after her decision to do this. She makes almost twice what I make and is going to tell me her worries about money.

I didn't want this. My kids didn't want this. She chose this. And she is going to tell me she is worried about money. I love her more than anything. And I would help her out in any situation. But she is going to have to ask. I am not just going to extend help anymore.

If I am making it with roughly half of what she makes, I just don't want to hear it.

I'm just frusturated from the earlier conversation we had.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/01/09 02:41 PM
It's Saturday and storming. I gotta figure out what to do with my girls today.

I do need to take them clothes shopping.

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/01/09 03:59 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
You thought your d's were getting better? What can we possibly say to that?

I don't know. Yes, they seemed to be doing better. I guess I was wrong.They have periods where they seem find and other times when they don't.

Get them enrolled in c, asap b/c now it's summertime. Does NOT Matter if YOU think "they're doing better" b/c 1) you don't know what is going on with them, as they won't and CAN'T tell YOU all their feelings; 2) they would need c in the best of circumstances as ALL kids do, and 3) nearly all judges want to see it and it'd look better for you to be the one making it happen, and finally, as for the choice of c, why didn't you like the other one? B/C they didn't address whether the divorce was right or wrong? That is not their job. The c's are there for the kids and getting them through the worst experience of THEIR lives....it is NOT their job to fix your M...

Who am I kidding. Anything I say to this is going to be the wrong answer. I just didn't want my kids being told that there is nothing wrong with this situation and that everyone is better because of it. Thats a bunch of garbage being filled in their heads.

Counseling is NOT about them being told there is nothing wrong with the situation. It's about helping them develop appropriate coping skills to deal with the situation. And it will help them all their lives, because life is full of pain and sorrow, and the better they are at dealing with it, the better their lives will be.

Choose a c that your kids are comfortable with. Not you, not your w,
but the kids. They're the ones who need to be helped. You can get your own c, and so can your w.

True.

As for homeschooling, which I actually considered when we lived in Alaska, you can't figure out why that's impractical for you? ASIDE from your w wanting a divorce,...you cannot afford to homeschool. She earns more money and according to you, that is hugely important to her, and you said yourself that you don't earn enough to support your family just now. So, you are saying if only she'd quit her job, and stay home and become a teacher (without pay), then all would be well? And you don't see any other issues that could arise? Of course you can.

Well, it wouldn't be the most fantastic lifestyle. But we could make it work. I don't see her giving up her lifestyle for it though.

Why can't you tell the kids that it isn't practical EVEN IF you were together? It's not b/c of your w's choice to end the M...

The reality is that it is NOT EASY to homeschool and takes an enormous amount of patience on the parent's end AND the kids', and with two kids not the same age, or temperament, you'd be putting your wife into a sainthood category. Plus she likes her job or at least the life style it affords her. Not so fair and not so realistic or practical. So why not explain THAT to your d's? Oh and the fact that they would not see their friends? Or have a social life without a lot of extra work on your w's part b/c she'd have to take them everywhere to meet up with other kids, and their sports or art class or whatever other thing their schools offer, that they would lose with homeschooling...

Umm... no. They would not lose that. A lot of schools work with homeschoolers now for those sort of activities. Take a look at the great Tim Tebow QB for the Florida Gators. He was homeschooled and aloud to participate in the football program with a school. He seems to have done ok. Infact, he is quite the leader of that football team. By the way, I am not a Gators fan and was disapointed that he chose that school. But that is another subject.


And if W wanted to work, then I could homeschool the kids. But yes, it would be work. And I am not saying that I am up for it. But plenty of other parents make it work on a single income. The people that lived across the street from us did and they had 7 kids and lived very practicle on a single income. My sister homeschools her kids and does quite well at it.


It's good that you realize you're not up for it.

Plus, for our family, even with all our schooling I'd be hiring a tutor (or 3) by the time the kids hit high school...so no, it's not the easy thing that kids think when they want "to be held more" so to speak.

Didn't say it was. But it is a far superior education if done right and the kids learn how to study better and you avoid all the social garbage you get in a public school. I'm sorry, why do they need to be around those influences of drugs, sex, alcohol, other trouble stuff? I never bought into this theory that it was good for them to experience all aspects of the social life when growing up. Some things are better left not experienced. They in general are mature teenagers who become mature adults who by the way do very well in life and in the workforce. Quite a few start out college earlier as they can go at a much faster pace. If done right, its hands down the best way to go by far.

There are unhealthy influences in schools, but part of raising children is helping them cope with these influences, to model setting boundaries and making wise choices. Keeping your kids isolated at home to "protect" them from the world is not helping them. Unless ofcourse they'll just go to college at home, and work from home and never be out in the world.


Not all the problems in your kids lives are related to your w's choices or the divorce. Your kids increased needs are of course being affected by
the divorce, but they have to be addressed with c and whatever the c suggests, but Homeschooling? The desire for it may be due to the divorce but as a solution it is probably one of those things that won't fix your problems for reasons not related to the divorce. Explain that to the girls instead of sighing and lamenting, even if only to yourself. (Which I'm assuming was not shown to them, right?)

No. It was not shown to them and I didn't say homeschooling would fix anything. Its not an answer to any problems at the moment considering the obvious situation. If things were great and the family dynamics and everything else were good, then it could be looked at as something worth doing for the kids. But since that is in no way shape or form where we are at right now, it obviously is not an option to even bother talking about.

J-

PS Not having them in c at this point, after all these months, THIS is another example of what we mean when we say you don't listen or follow through or do what isn't comfortable for you. This situation is not about your comfort. This is a very good example of what we mean. I hope you wake up. Really soon.

Ok. I don't know what else to say to that.

Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/01/09 04:20 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
It really bothered me that W was basically crying on my shoulder about being worried about how much the van was going to cost to repair today. She makes almost twice what I make and is going to tell me her worries about money.


Quote:

And I would help her out in any situation. But she is going to have to ask.


LOL. now you know why she didn't proceed with the divorce. she knows you are hopelessly co-dependent on her and will exhibit rescueing behavior WHENEVER SHE NEEDS YOU TOO. doesnt seem to me she is coming to you to seriously work on restoring your relationship. USER!

why don't you buy yourself a really really nice bicycle right now. and shave your legs. hardxcore AHAHA. or get that gym membership you were talking about. its all about kevin, you know.

btw, you are talking about her again, i understand your frustration and need to vent, but you have to start over back to day 1.

you never did tell me what is so great about your wife. what makes her all that and a bag of chips? and nothing about how she makes you feel or about your kids.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/01/09 05:20 PM
Quote:
you never did tell me what is so great about your wife. what makes her all that and a bag of chips?


She has a big heart. She is smart. She is beautiful IMO. She loves life. She used to always put the family first before anything else. She cares about people. She is outgoing and fun to be around. She is a great cook. She has many great ideas. She has many talents and many skills. She is driven and dedicated. There isn't anything she won't do to help someone. She stuck by me even when she had no reason to. She is my W.

Quote:
LOL. now you know why she didn't proceed with the divorce. she knows you are hopelessly co-dependent on her and will exhibit rescueing behavior WHENEVER SHE NEEDS YOU TOO. doesnt seem to me she is coming to you to seriously work on restoring your relationship. USER!


I didn't offer her any help or any company.

Quote:
btw, you are talking about her again, i understand your frustration and need to vent, but you have to start over back to day 1.


Ugg. I know. Day 1 again.

DW, I am not sure that I followed why you reposted my comments and didn't say anything. Am I missing something there or was it another moment to throw the hands in the air again?

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/01/09 05:44 PM
Kev,

I did post within your post, but even though I tried to make it bold print, it didn't come out that way.

I said that having your girls go to counseling is not about telling them that there's nothing wrong with the situation (separation and devorce) -- it's about helping to provide them with appropriate coping mechanisms to handle their emotions. This is not the only painful time they will ever have in their lives, and the better they're able to cope with pain, the better their quality of life will be.

I also posted that it's good that you realize you're not up to the task of home schooling.

What are you and the girls doing today?

Stacy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/01/09 06:12 PM
I'm going to take them clothes shopping for a dress for church. Then we will figure out what to do next.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/01/09 07:26 PM
[quote=K4D][quote]You thought your d's were getting better? What can we possibly say to that?

I don't know. Yes, they seemed to be doing better. I guess I was wrong.They have periods where they seem find and other times when they don't.

Get them enrolled in c, asap b/c now it's summertime. Does NOT Matter if YOU think "they're doing better" b/c 1) you don't know what is going on with them, as they won't and CAN'T tell YOU all their feelings; 2) they would need c in the best of circumstances as ALL kids do, and 3) nearly all judges want to see it and it'd look better for you to be the one making it happen, and finally, as for the choice of c, why didn't you like the other one? B/C they didn't address whether the divorce was right or wrong? That is not their job. The c's are there for the kids and getting them through the worst experience of THEIR lives....it is NOT their job to fix your M...

Who am I kidding. Anything I say to this is going to be the wrong answer. I just didn't want my kids being told that there is nothing wrong with this situation and that everyone is better because of it. Thats a bunch of garbage being filled in their heads.

Choose a c that your kids are comfortable with. Not you, not your w,
but the kids. They're the ones who need to be helped. You can get your own c, and so can your w.

True.

As for homeschooling, which I actually considered when we lived in Alaska, you can't figure out why that's impractical for you? ASIDE from your w wanting a divorce,...you cannot afford to homeschool. She earns more money and according to you, that is hugely important to her, and you said yourself that you don't earn enough to support your family just now. So, you are saying if only she'd quit her job, and stay home and become a teacher (without pay), then all would be well? And you don't see any other issues that could arise? Of course you can.

Well, it wouldn't be the most fantastic lifestyle. But we could make it work. I don't see her giving up her lifestyle for it though.

Why can't you tell the kids that it isn't practical EVEN IF you were together? It's not b/c of your w's choice to end the M...

The reality is that it is NOT EASY to homeschool and takes an enormous amount of patience on the parent's end AND the kids', and with two kids not the same age, or temperament, you'd be putting your wife into a sainthood category. Plus she likes her job or at least the life style it affords her. Not so fair and not so realistic or practical. So why not explain THAT to your d's? Oh and the fact that they would not see their friends? Or have a social life without a lot of extra work on your w's part b/c she'd have to take them everywhere to meet up with other kids, and their sports or art class or whatever other thing their schools offer, that they would lose with homeschooling...

Umm... no. They would not lose that. A lot of schools work with homeschoolers now for those sort of activities. Take a look at the great Tim Tebow QB for the Florida Gators. He was homeschooled and aloud to participate in the football program with a school. He seems to have done ok. Infact, he is quite the leader of that football team. By the way, I am not a Gators fan and was disapointed that he chose that school. But that is another subject.

And if W wanted to work, then I could homeschool the kids. But yes, it would be work. And I am not saying that I am up for it. But plenty of other parents make it work on a single income. The people that lived across the street from us did and they had 7 kids and lived very practicle on a single income. My sister homeschools her kids and does quite well at it.


Plus, for our family, even with all our schooling I'd be hiring a tutor (or 3) by the time the kids hit high school...so no, it's not the easy thing that kids think when they want "to be held more" so to speak.

Didn't say it was. But it is a far superior education if done right and the kids learn how to study better and you avoid all the social garbage you get in a public school. I'm sorry, why do they need to be around those influences of drugs, sex, alcohol, other trouble stuff? I never bought into this theory that it was good for them to experience all aspects of the social life when growing up. Some things are better left not experienced. They in general are mature teenagers who become mature adults who by the way do very well in life and in the workforce. Quite a few start out college earlier as they can go at a much faster pace. If done right, its hands down the best way to go by far.

Not all the problems in your kids lives are related to your w's choices or the divorce. Your kids increased needs are of course being affected by
the divorce, but they have to be addressed with c and whatever the c suggests, but Homeschooling? The desire for it may be due to the divorce but as a solution it is probably one of those things that won't fix your problems for reasons not related to the divorce. Explain that to the girls instead of sighing and lamenting, even if only to yourself. (Which I'm assuming was not shown to them, right?)

No. It was not shown to them and I didn't say homeschooling would fix anything. Its not an answer to any problems at the moment considering the obvious situation. If things were great and the family dynamics and everything else were good, then it could be looked at as something worth doing for the kids. But since that is in no way shape or form where we are at right now, it obviously is not an option to even bother talking about.

J-

PS Not having them in c at this point, after all these months, THIS is another example of what we mean when we say you don't listen or follow through or do what isn't comfortable for you. This situation is not about your comfort. This is a very good example of what we mean. I hope you wake up. Really soon.

Ok. I don't know what else to say to that.


K4,
Don't make this about homeschooling b/c it is NOT. I pointed out some practical disadvantages to it. I am well aware of the pros to it as well, as I looked at doing it. And I do support it in SOME family situations. Yours in NOT one of them and that is obvious.

My whole point was that you laid all the troubles your kids are having on the choice of a divorce, and SOME of them are related! I get that! D7's sudden desire/creative solution for the m's problems was homeschooling, and in her mind she probably thought "then they'd have to live together" and my heart breaks for her....Hence the need for C! Which YOU did not get yet.
So on one hand you want to blame all the woes of childhood (some of which ARE going to happen no matter what) on the w's choices, yet YOU don't get your kids the help they need even after ALL those red flags they sent out to YOU...



So don't make this about a homeschooling argument. That is a deflection of yours. Which you do a lot. What's next? Debating the road to salvation? Come on Kevin, work on YOU. Stay on track, What's new in YOUR life and what have you learned lately about making yourself happy?

j-
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/01/09 07:53 PM
Yes I know you called a c now that we all howled about it. Good.

But through this entire ordeal, this nightmare for your family which began just months after your mom passed away, and b/c of which you revealed that you had/have a drinking problem, were "never happy before" and "don't know how to be happy" and are on meds, (which is not something I'm judging at all)

but what you have actually followed through and done for all this, is to get the scrip without counselling, attend one AA meeting...and now weekly, you speak to a priest. (Don't deflect and argue about the Priest K4, I'm Catholic and all for it.) But we all know it's scratching the surface.

You prayed for resources but you must avail yourself of them and I don't mean just reading your posts here. Doing the work is getting out there and digging in and learning what it takes to make oneself a happy complete person without someone else there to do that job. That's why so much of the stuff about your w's family or her job or her car is nothingness to me. It's like a fluttering wind that lasts 3 seconds. Who cares? Are the kids safe in the car? Fine, that's all that matters...next issue...

Does this make sense to you?
j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/01/09 08:50 PM
Quote:
Does this make sense to you?


Yes. It makes sense to me.

I printed out pictures of my kids and got my W an anniversary card. It plays a song when you open it up. lol. I am going to put them in a folder and hand them to her as I walk out the door tomorrow and quickly say that I just think we should recognize the day for all that it brought and wouldn't have been possible without. Then I will leave.

I'm a bit worried about how it will be percieved. But I do want to recognize the day as it is a very important day for many reasons.

Every time I take D7 and D11 to the store, D7 finds some many things that she just "absolutely needs". Its quite funny to be honest.

Apparently I need to get some dancing shoes with hard bottoms. A friend of mine told me that she found some. So I might get them.

My girls are doing good today and they did good last night. I let them stay up late last night since it was Friday. They enjoyed it. Me and D11 played a video game together and we made pizza's last night. This morning D11 got frusturated trying to make an omlett and I had to finish it for her. She likes to make an omlett each Saturday morning.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/02/09 05:29 AM
Good luck getting thru the day...it'll be over and you'll have gotten thru it. For my 24th anniversary, my h sent some flowers from out of town, where he had moved...and the next year I planned a trip for ME for our 25th b/c I was NEVER going to be alone again on that day. And I wasn't. I was with our wonderful children on a great trip to Italy....[i]

[/i]This anniversary, we'll be spending it together. In all ways I think. But if we weren't, I know I'd be happy or at least, happy enough for now, and eventually quite alright, and never ever really "alone" anyhow.

Whatever happens, you will be alright. Trust Him that you will be alright no matter what she does or says or chooses, trust in HIM, "for real".

When you finally do that, you'll be able to detach, and look inside and do the real work that begins when you look inside. There are no scary monsters there K4 but there are things that need dealing with...we all had/have them. No more deflections...do the work. And See what happens if you really truly TRUST in Him. This is your test.

j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/02/09 06:07 AM
Thanks 25,

You are right. I will get through the day. And if nothing else, I have a good dinner planned with friends that are very supportive of me and want me to have a good evening at the very least.

12 years. It is a big deal for me. I am planning on buying a grill in the morning and cooking some steaks and chicken and heating up some edamame for me and my girls.

Today I was looking at anniversary cards and my daughters asked me why I was looking at cards. I said that it is mommy's and mine's 12th anniversary tomorrow. They decided they wanted to help me pick out a card. I don't know if that was the wrong move or not. But they knew I was looking at cards for some reason and I guess I just decided to be honest with them. They took a real interest in wanting to help me pick out a card. I hope I don't get blasted for that as I was silent until they asked. But I did tell them that the reason I am looking for a card is because had it not been for that, they would not have been the most special thing that came out of us being together. So I did try and gear it towards them. Once I told them that, they were all excited about helping me pick out a card.

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/02/09 02:21 PM
Hi Kevin,

Thinking of you today, and said an extra prayer this morning at church.

Stay strong when you drop off the girls, keep your emotions in check.

Stacy
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/02/09 04:12 PM

Whatever happens, you will be alright. Trust Him that you will be alright no matter what she does or says or chooses, trust in HIM, "for real". - 25


What awesome advice...for all of us!

Thanks.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/02/09 04:22 PM

Thanks DW. I really appreciate it. I will definitely keep myself in check. I expect nothing.

I do wonder if she is thinking about me or us today. I wonder if she even remembers or cares.

I am trusting in Him. I am at church right now with my girls.

I will see W about 6 tonight when I take the girls back.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/02/09 05:40 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D

Thanks DW. I really appreciate it. I will definitely keep myself in check. I expect nothing.

I do wonder if she is thinking about me or us today. I wonder if she even remembers or cares.

I am trusting in Him. I am at church right now with my girls.

I will see W about 6 tonight when I take the girls back.

Kevin


If you expect nothing then why are you *still* wondering if she is thinking about you or remembers or cares? IMO that shows you still do have expectations; not so much in her words or actions but you have expectations about her thoughts. If you really expect nothing, then expect NOTHING as far as thoughts, actions or words go. Again, it takes the focus off you and puts your thoughts back to your W and her thoughts. If you were detached you would not wonder what she is thinking or if she remembers or cares.

Why are you posting to a message board while you are in church?
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/02/09 05:42 PM
dont you have someone who can drop your kids off at the meeting place for you? so you can go out and have a good time or do you pushups!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/02/09 06:35 PM
I need advice quickly.

My W texted me and asked if I could keep the kids over night tonight. She said her best friend is in the hospital and that she slept there last night and wants to stay with her. Apparently the H can't be there because he has the baby at home and her mom can't be there because she has to work.

This would mean I can't give W the card and pictures of the girls or acknowledge the day for what it brought. I also have plans tonight with my friends that I would have to cancel.

It is just ironic that of all days, today. I don't know whether to believe her or not. Could she make this harder than it is? I mean if it is true, I don't want her friend to be alone. I just don't know if it is true. I wouldn't put it past her to come up with this to deliberately avoid me on our anniversary.

What should I say or do?

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/02/09 06:41 PM
Kevin,

I don't think your main concern should be whether or no you can see her to give her the card and pics. Also, stop the thoughts abouut her trying to avoid you - sheesh!

How important are your plans for tonight? If it's something you're really looking forward to -- just tell her you can't do it.

Would it be possible for her to spend 3 or 4 hours w/the girls while you go to dinner, and then you can keep them and she can stay w/her friend?

Keep your emotions under control, please don't accuse her of trying to avoid her on your anniversary.

Stacy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/02/09 06:44 PM
Well,

I was really looking forward to my plans tonight. I guess it just kind of hurt given the day is all.

I guess I can ask her if she can watch them for a couple of hours while I go to dinner with my friends.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/02/09 06:54 PM
She tried calling. I guess I should call her back. If she does agree to watch them for a couple of hours, should I still go ahead and give her the card and pictures?

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/02/09 06:56 PM
Forget about the anniversary.

IMO this is just another example of how she uses you and knows you will be around to drop anything and everything when she needs something from you.

If her friend was in the hospital y'day and there was even the slightest, most remote chance she would need to stay overnight again your W *should* have contacted you y'day letting you know and ASKING if her friend had to stay again, could you keep the girls an extra night.

I would tell her that you have plans and its really too late to cancel them BUT you are CAN keep the girls until normal visiting hours are over and meet her halfway between the hospital and where you need to be for the kid exchange.

If she wants a favor from you, especially regarding last minute plans w/the children, she needs to plan better for all case scenarios. Her friend has an H and yes, while they may have a new baby that is up to her friend and her H to arrange for childcare.

I would not give in all the way but offer an alternative solution that will allow you to keep your plans and for her to stay with her friend a while longer.

Plus, this isnt an emergency IMO and your W needs to really think about routine and stability for the children on drop off and pickup days.

IMO this is the chance to stand up for yourself but you are making it all about a card and photos. Turn your thinking around back to YOU.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/02/09 07:37 PM
Well,

I called her back and told her that I already had plans tonight that I didn't want to miss. I offered to watch the kids for the night after. She said she will take them and just keep them. I said ok. She asked how I was. I said fine and I asked her how she is. She said fine. So I will drop them off at 6:30 and then meet my friends for dinner at 7.

My W wasn't planning on staying at the hospital over night. She just wanted to stay later is all so she was going to let me keep the kids over night.

DW and CG, I hear what yall are saying. I'm still going to go ahead and give her the card and pictures and then leave.

CG, I don't feel that I am expecting anything by simply just wondering if she is thinking at all about me today.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/02/09 08:23 PM
Originally Posted By: CityGirl


If you expect nothing then why are you *still* wondering if she is thinking about you or remembers or cares? IMO that shows you still do have expectations; not so much in her words or actions but you have expectations about her thoughts.


Ok CityGirl, we got your point. Back off a little for one stinking second. I get it that we are all trying to help Kevin and help him get stronger.

But, by golly, if you keep slapping someone's hand to get them to do / not do something then they only learn to do it to not get slapped. We are trying to make lasting changes in ourselves and we do not get it at the same rate.

I am sorry if this catches you off guard. But, honestly, it isn't very helpful to dissect everything Kevin does or says with I told you so.

I push him, I encourage, but everything has to happen in moderation.

In my never to be humble opinion, there are times that we have to vent. Kevin included.

We do ultimately have to be detached, but if he wants to vent and he can't do it here, then he is welcome to come to my thread and vent his head off.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/02/09 09:24 PM
Wow, the Wifey! You sure told me! Feel better about yourself?

I never said "I told you so" nor did I say he can't vent and I dont recall you ever posting to the thread before (please pardon me if that is not correct) so clearly you chose this moment to inject yourself for a reason. Care to share?

Kevin has not made one lasting change since I started reading his threads long before I registered here and started posting to him. Nothing in Kevin's world happens in moderation yet there is a group of us that have stuck by him despite his utter resistance to detach and move forward. Thus far, since mid spring he still has not been able to go one full day w/o mentioning his W. I am sure 25 or DavidsWife would be happy to fill you in since we are the ones that have remained firmly planted at his side, spinning our wheels and watching the same thing day after day.

But, thank you for "putting me in my place".
Have a nice night smile

Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/02/09 10:52 PM
I'm off to see W. Please pray that there is a seed planted tonight.

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/02/09 11:15 PM
Kevin,

I'm praying you'll be able to keep your emotions in check when you drop off your girls.

And I was puzzled when you replied earlier, but said you were in church??

Stacy
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/02/09 11:21 PM
Hi Wifey,

I see you're new to this thread -- looks like you started posting here about two weeks ago.

I'm going on six months here w/Kevin. If you have some time, and want to go back and read all of his threads, it might give you a better understanding of the situation he continues to wallow in.

There are not too many posters left here, this is an extremely frustrating thread. But those of us on here, especially CityGirl, 25, Stuck and I -- have continued to try to help Kevin.

Every poster has their own approach, so though you took offense at CG's approach, I don't think Kevin did. If he did, he'd let CG know.

And if you have a chance to follow some of CG's thread, you'll have a better understanding of where she's coming from also.

If you continue to post here - welcome - we need all the reinforcements we can get!

Stacy
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/02/09 11:38 PM
Thank you, Stacy.

The Wifey - have you read any of my thread? I ask because I acutally had a true nervous breakdown and was diagnosed with a clinical panic disorder due to the BS of the past 19 months with my H. I also have Lupus. BUT the reason I had the breakdown I did was due to my refusal to detach and move forward. The main reason I registered at this site was for Kevin because everything he was doing and is still doing *I* was doing until it got to the point where I became ill. I acutally wound up hospitalized.

Three posts up he says he has no expectations and three posts later he asking for prayers for a seed to be planted because today so happens to be the 12 yr. anniversary of their former marriage. Does that sound healthy to you? Its not.

Kevin is not new to this game and has been separated for over a year. There should be some tangible progress yet there has been very little in his case. He quit counseling after one session. Went to one AA meeting and stopped going. Lagged on getting counseling for his girls and filled many a threads with obsessive chatter about his W and her every move and thought.

I can assure you that mentally and physically breaking down is an experience I wish on nobody so if some tough love is in order, well, I will offer it as I see fit on a public message board.

Most people have bailed on him because its the same thing each day. You dont have to like my style but dont chastise me for it without knowing the full back story.

I spent a good bit of my own time looking up resources for Kevin that he either blew off or never took advantage of. So I cant be all that horrifying simply because I dont see any advantage of sugar coating my words. We have all tried many approaches with Kevin.... soft & gentle, hard nosed, straight up "how it is" and the simple offering of information and proven techniques.

In any situation if you want the best possible outcome you need to do the work. You need to get damn dirty doing the work and really dig in. In my observation that has not yet happened hence my "hard" stance with Kevin.

So, that's that.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/03/09 01:06 AM
What CG said...and Stacy and stuck, etc.

kevin has to do much more than he has done, MUCH MORE, if he is to move forward and that does not simply refer to his wife or their marital status. He had/has a drinking problem (which was by his own admission a huge factor in the demise of his M). His wife described him as a "functioning alcoholic". For MONTHS we all urged him to get help b/c his anxiety was out of control, & by his comments he lost his last job b/c he could not focus...

So he said he stopped drinking but those of us with experience in addiction pointed out that "recovery is MUCH more than simply not drinking" and that the 12 steps are a way of life, (taking a moral inventory of your damage to others and making amends is A GREAT Thing to do even if you have no abuse problem....it's called taking responsibility for ourselves) and a life program for it and if you find a better one or one more suited for you FINE, but do the work or you are just a "dry alcoholic" who never finds out why he self treated his depression with alcohol or what was being hidden, not dealt with, avoided, etc. His mom died a few months before his wife wanted the div but he has not commented on his grief. (Doesn't mention how his siblings or father are handling theirs. )

So after literally months of urging him to go to an AA meeting AND him agreeing almost from the start but not actually going, he finally FINALLY went to ONE AA meeting and wrote it off, (without sharing that info until we dragged it out of him weeks or months later), b/c there were unsavory characters at the one meeting he attended. Same for the C he finally agreed to get and then weeks/months later actually DID, but wrote that guy off b/c he was "too young or inexperienced" and whatever...

Kevin has said some startling things about himself that probably played HUGE roles in the marital situation and that are NOT being addressed even now....SUCH AS saying he "has never known how to be happy in his LIFE...was never happy before met his wife". That is something that MUST be addressed and if ALL one cared about was his reconciling with his wife, even then, you'd have to admit that he has to know how to be happy on his own to make much of a husband to anyone, or a father. It's a basic life skill. When he lost his job due to lack of focus (which we can all identify with and are not judging and was incredibly indecisive about whether to move away-he did-or back to Texas--he did--- his solution was to get on some anti-anxiety meds...AND yet Not get c to go with it...which is standard med practice meaning they'd prescribe it but assume or recommend c to go with it)
Not happening...

Look I don't want to rehash all this especially on this day b/c ALL of us have extra hard times on certain occasions.

We know people move and heal at diff rates. It's b/c of THAT knowledge that we recognize when someone is avoiding the real work involved. Pretending to be clueless or "trying real hard" are easy things to say. Doing the real work is not easy. Read his old posts and see how slow the progess has been for insight into why this thread is so frustrating and why we get emails telling us to give up on Kevin and his sitch.

But if someone really wants to be the best person they can be AND wants their M restored, there is no other way than doing the real INTERIOR work involved. Not about the spouse when you have these other issues and keep making it about the spouse...that's deflection and avoidance and some of us see through it and call him on it. Sorry if that sounds opinionated, but what's to argue?

CG has given countless lists of resources available to Kev and we've all tried to keep him focussed and on track...and he has written to me privately asking me not to give up on him, and if it were not for that, I would have quit here. B/C it's SO frustrating to see someone avoid the elephant in the room with superficial attempts and not doing what WE have ALL been thru or did, or are going through now. My life could and would have sucked for years if I had not FACED my own issues and done my own work and gotten the tools I needed. I had to set an example for my kids and plus, I deserve to be happy. Thank GOD for that belief.

Here's to hoping K4 someday finds that belief "for real" and then acts on getting the tools he sorely lacks, so that he CAN be happy on his own. Only then will there be a real chance for any R with a woman in his life, let alone one with the anger she has with him. Some of it, in his own words was deserved.

So yeah, he has some amends to make and some big serious work to do. I don't know if he will ever do it, let alone soon. But tonight? K4, try to enjoy THIS evening so you aren't too miserable. On THIS Day/evening, I'd make sure I was busy and happy and not alone....and NOT around w...

So go do that and being again tomorrow...or not.

j-
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/03/09 02:03 AM
Hey 25, CG and Kev,

My brother-in-law is dying of Stage IV Leukemia and Myostatic (sp?) bone cancer.

If I'm away -- I'm helping them through this. I'm not abandoning you -- it's just lose-lose here.

If I don't post - I'm helping them, helping my nieces, sister-in-law, and children cope with this.

Helping everyone cope.

There are worse things than divorce.

Sorry to hi-jack -- just wanted you all (ya'll) to know.

Stacy
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/03/09 02:12 AM
Oh Stacy, I am so very sorry to read this news. I will be praying for you and your family and thanks for the "reality check". Life is so, so fragile. What can we do? Anything? You are always here for us so let us be here for you.

I wish you all peace and comfort and love.
N smile
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/03/09 02:26 AM
CG,

I don't know what to say.

When my children were small they had a saying: "Too bad, so sad, Mother's Dad".

WTH -- what does that mean???

I don't want any of you to feel that I've gone for no reason.

Life happens -- you help, in any way you can. I wish I could help more.

So sad, too bad -- thanks for caring -- but if I'm away -- it's not about Kevin. Just taking care of my family.

CG and 25 - I'd like to connect in the alt -- but I don't know of the clues or whatever to connect.

Thanks for caring CG -- I'll find a way, as we all do - always.

Stacy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/03/09 04:53 AM
Wow,

What a day on here. Stacy, I would like to say that I to am very sorry to hear about your BIL. I hope that he is able to recover and I can only imagine the pain that everyone in your family must be filling from this. My prayers are definitely with you and your BIL.

To answer the question about why I was posting during church from my blackberry. The mass had not begun yet. We got there early. Thats why. I don't post or even look at my phone during mass most of the time.

This afternoon I was talking to one of my friends about shoring up plans for tonight and she had her room mate in the car with her. Her room mate said why would I want to be with someone like my W when I can have all of her. I was like WHAT??? Umm... NO. I am not interested in her room mate or anyone else. Her room mate is not bad looking at all. But I am a committed man to my W. So I let my friend know that who already knows that so there was no hope from her room mate. Geez... It was flattering, don't get me wrong. But that is not who I am.

Tonight, I had a wonderful night surprisingly. W ended up dropping by my apartment to watch the girls so I could go out. She called me on my way out.

Later when I got back she explained that her best friend had caught something extremely contagious that the doctors just diagnosed this morning. In fact it was so contagious that once it was diagnosed, the doctors came back in covered up. W has been with her since Friday and they said that you can start experiencing symptons 4 to 9 days after being around it. So my W is worried that she might possibly have it now after spending the past couple of days at the hospital with her in the same room.

We talked for a while and W agreed that I needed to keep the kids at least through tomorrow night to see if W caught anything from this. I told her that I hope she didn't and obviously I am concerned about her safety. But I am also concerned about my daughters safety and so it is better for them to stay with me for a bit longer until we know for sure.

W said she didn't like the school in the area that I live in. I said that is fine because I am not renewing the lease in December. She asked where I am going to go. I said I don't know but I'm not thrilled with this apartment complex and it was just a temporary place until I figured things out.

As W was leaving I handed her the card with pictures and told her regardless of the situation, I think the day is still worth recognizing for what it brought us. She said thank you and then I walked off.

I kept my emotions completely 100% in check. I was surprised myself. I handled everything very cool in front of her. I came across as a strong supportive husband and someone that is there for her but able to take care of me and my girls. She was actually really nice tonight. I think she is just really worried that she might be infected.

It was nice to see her even if it was only for a few minutes tonight. I know she is completely detached from me. But as I think about her right now, I still love her regardless.

So tonight, I went out to dinner with my friends to an all you can eat sushi buffet. It was truly amazing. We had a great time. Then my friends who are dancers and helping me to learn how recommended that I bring my daughters to the ballroom dance studio after and they would work with them to. So I went and got my daughters and took them. We had a great time again. I danced with both D7 and D11. D7 was really into it and pretty much danced the entire time. She told me that she loved it and wants to keep doing it. I said we will now that I know I can bring them there.

So a day that I was dreading turned out to be just a wonderful evening all around. Things went so well in every aspect tonight. I was very happy tonight and just really enjoyed myself. I am getting more and more into this dancing as I learn more steps. It is a great escape from things. One of my friends was like why do I think she does it. Cool.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/03/09 05:36 AM
I forgot to mention that my W also said after we finished talking that she would hug me but she doesn't want to take a chance on infecting me.

That surprised me being as how cold she has been for weeks now towards me.

I wasn't expecting that.

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/03/09 07:43 AM
Kevin,

I'm happy to hear that you were able to "be in the moment" yesterday, and that a day you were dreading turned out pretty well.

Good for you for bringing your girls to the dance studio and sharing that with them.

I'm proud of you, and that is not said lightly.

Thank-you for your kind words regarding my BIL, but there will be no recovery for him. Four to six weeks is what he has left, we're all praying for a peaceful passing, and that his pain can be kept manageable.

He's 49.

So keep up your good work, and if I'm not posting, know that I'm praying for your and yours.

Stacy
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/03/09 12:05 PM
Davidswife and Citygirl,

I am sorry for the hijack and reproof. I want you to know whether I posted or not I have been following Kevin right along.

I agree with most of your postings and love the encouragement of Kevin. I just know that when someone is hurting, as he was on his anniversary, was not the day for 2x4's. They needed to be padded a little.

That being said, I recognize how painful an anniversary is in this sitch. Of course his thoughts are on the S at this point. He's human. Strength comes gradually and I don't fault him for thinking about it. Yet, it appears he handled himself real well.

I still think Kevin needs to get real and understand that standing on his own two feet, going to C, going beyond speaking to the priest and going to church and learning to let go and let God, and attending AA are all necessary and vital (and lets not forget C for the children.) He needs to be able to look in the mirror and be real.

Kevin, everyone here loves you and is dedicated to you. If you can't face that you have to be that strong man that your w fell in love with - addiction free, dependable, responsible, and able to think about her feelings first - then you are not ready for what you wish for. It takes more than hope to rebuild a M, it takes consistent action.

I know the big buzzword is detachment. I get it. But more than that, is that everything you do she is watching. Why would she give an addict a chance that only went to one AA meeting? Why would she believe you are truly changing by speaking to a priest (in a church she isn't comfortable in) rather than if you were to be in hard-core, honest-to-goodness counseling? Why would she respect and accept that you put your Children first if you didn't bring up and push for the two of you to get your children into c?

The ultimate goal is detachment, Kevin, but until you get to that point, can you see how hope and reality differ? If you aren't yet detached, ok, but can you see that if you really want to get your W back and restore your M, that everything you fail to do is only confirming her decision for her?

I promise, that if you go to AA, go to counseling, grow your faith in God, put the girls in C and support them all the way that you will detach. You will grow, you will get stronger. It seems crazy, but the more you detach the more your w will watch, Kevin. We aren't believing the changes because we haven't seen you do the work. How do you expect or hope to restore your M if all she can see is what we see?

I will give you one for instance, Kevin. For instance, you immediately questioned your w wanting to stay with her friend and thought about how YOU felt, that she was trying to avoid YOU. It was nice to think she may want to hug you but wasn't because she may be contagious, but did you express honest concern for her health? I didn't see it in your post.

You know you have to do the work, Kevin. You know it. And you CAN DO this.

And that, my dear friends, is how to pad a 2x4, yet still hit that tender spot just to the left of denial. I'm with you Citygirl and Davidswife, and have been from the start. Fresh eyes and perspective, and more than a year of DB, but I haven't had to chime in much because I've agreed with you.

The frustration you feel at him not doing the work showed through. I read and felt it. I just added a little more padding is all.

What say you, Kevin?



Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/03/09 02:01 PM
I can't disagree Wifey and CG and 25 and DW.

I did show very honest concern for my W and her health and I expressed that to her last night. She knows I don't want anything to happen to her.

As far as the timelines go. I didn't actually join this site until December 30th, 2008. So this would be my 8th month on here. W announced she wanted a D back in September 2008 which was the second bomb and never changed her mind since. She originally wanted a D in February 2008, but then we reconciled the week we were down in Florida for my mom's funeral in April. I did grieve over my mom. But at the same time, I was somewhat side tracked by my W's wanting a D and then us reconciling. I had mixed emotions on everything through that period. Everything seemed to be going well, so I thought from April until September when she started seeing OM. Nothing has been the same since.

W doesn't know that I am going to see the priest each week. I haven't told her because I didn't think it would be recieved well. So she thinks that I am going to counseling each week. I had told her earlier on that I was going to AA. I guess I need to start going back and work through this 12 step process.

I am waiting to hear back from the C regarding my girls. Once I have more info, I will bring it up to W. I think my D11 needs it to, not just D7. D11 seems to have a lot of anger and I'm sure some of it is stimming from the current situation. We were talking about Jesus coming back some day and she said she doesn't know why Jesus would want to take her. We talked some more. But that kind of startled me that she thinks that. That says there are some things going on in her mind that need to be worked out.

D7 asked me this morning if I gave W the card. I said yes. She then asked if W liked it. I said I don't know and that I gave it to her as she was leaving. Then D7 asked me if W gave me a card. I said no, but that W has been very busy with her friend being sick from this thing she contracted. D11 was just quiet.

I talked to my dad this morning after I dropped off my girls. He is doing well at my sisters place. They are all doing good. He is just getting things set up how he likes on the 3rd floor of their house.

Yes, I know I need to continue to work no myself in order to have a chance at my W again down the road.

W did love that I was taking the girls to the dance studio and wanted the girls to show her what they are learning. I guess that looked good in her eyes even though that had nothing to do with why I was taking them. Me and the girls prayed for mommy to be ok.

DW, I did pray for yall last night and will continue to do so. I hope you and your family are ok through this process.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/03/09 02:26 PM
25,

I didn't realize people were emailing you telling you to give up on me. Thank you for not giving up on me.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/03/09 02:45 PM
A good verse for today.

Psalm 37:5: Commit your way to the LORD, Trust also in Him, and He will do it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/03/09 04:23 PM
Can people post to the thread Starting to get "It" #2 by LR1. He is in need of advice and nobody is really posting to him.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/03/09 05:26 PM
Originally Posted By: davidswife
Kevin,

I'm happy to hear that you were able to "be in the moment" yesterday, and that a day you were dreading turned out pretty well.

Good for you for bringing your girls to the dance studio and sharing that with them.

I'm proud of you, and that is not said lightly.

Thank-you for your kind words regarding my BIL, but there will be no recovery for him. Four to six weeks is what he has left, we're all praying for a peaceful passing, and that his pain can be kept manageable.

He's 49.

So keep up your good work, and if I'm not posting, know that I'm praying for your and yours.

Stacy


Stacy-see my post to you elsewhere...been there, done that, with bil's death, @ age 42, and it is NOT an easy task. Take care of yourself so you can be there for others too....

(( j ))


Sorry for the hijack but can't find Her thread...
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/03/09 05:28 PM
You are welcomed to hijack anytime especially for a situation like this with DW.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/04/09 03:29 AM
So today, W contacted me for a few and unclocked me on IM to talk to me. She asked how the girls liked dancing last night and I told her they loved it. She was happy to hear that. She then asked if she could talk to the girls tonight. I said yes.

D11 and D7 both talked to her on the phone tonight for a few minutes each. Then D7 asked her if she wanted to talk to me and she said no. Not surprised.

I started my 100 push ups program tonight. I am in the second level. I couldn't believe how much strength I have lost over time. The program will be excellent for me. I also started the squats program as well. That way I am working my upper and lower body. I could definitely feel the burning tonight. Thats good. This will get me back in shape. We also have an athletic center here that I was told closed at 6 each day. But I went over there tonight after I saw people in it after 6 and it was open. So I will start going there and lifting weights as well.

It is interesting this hot and cold thing from W. For weeks she was cold. Then last night she was warm. Tonight she didn't want to talk to me. Who knows. But I am doing things for me and my girls. I'm going back on a diet tomorrow of lots of vegetables. I am starting to put a little bit of weight back on the belly that needs to come off ASAP and stay off. At least I know how to do it the healthy way. I have a friend that has been on an eat to live diet and she has been giving me some stuff and showing me recipes so I am starting to do it now to.

We are busy at work again since the cycle has started again and that is a good thing. I would prefer to be busy.

I have to call the counselor back in the morning for the kids as she did not contact me back today like I was expecting her to.

My electric bill doubled this month and the AC doesn't even work that great. Nice. But at least I have a roof over my head.

I have to many books to read. People have been giving me books upon books and I'm just like wooa. I can't read all of these at once. I will just have to take it one at a time.

DW, I don't know if you are reading this, but I hope you and your family are doing ok tonight. I prayed for yall again.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/04/09 03:44 AM
My girls are excited that they get to see their mom tomorrow. D11 was a little worried about telling me that. I told her not to worry about that and I am glad they get to see their mom tomorrow. I told her I completely understand and I do understand. This is between me and W, not the kids. I have no problem at all with them wanting to see their mom. I'm glad they do. They need to know that they are loved by both of us because they are.

Kevin
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/04/09 03:47 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D

I started my 100 push ups program tonight. I am in the second level. I couldn't believe how much strength I have lost over time. The program will be excellent for me. I also started the squats program as well. That way I am working my upper and lower body. I could definitely feel the burning tonight. Thats good. This will get me back in shape. We also have an athletic center here that I was told closed at 6 each day. But I went over there tonight after I saw people in it after 6 and it was open. So I will start going there and lifting weights as well.

Kevin


Cool, I have been enjoying the 100 pushup challenge and may start the squat one in September. Keep working on you and the kids....
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/04/09 06:15 PM
I will see my W for a few minutes when we exchange the kids tonight. I will keep my emotions in check.

She has posted on her IM state that Monday was a great day and a great person bought her sushi. Of course that makes me wonder even though it shouldn't. Interesting that she would point that out on her status.

I wanted to put on mine that YOU HAVE A GREAT HUSBAND THAT WOULD BUY YOU SUSHI. But I didn't. I just went back to working. We are pretty swamped this week and next so I don't know how much I will be on here.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/04/09 06:33 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I can't disagree Wifey and CG and 25 and DW.

I did show very honest concern for my W and her health and I expressed that to her last night. She knows I don't want anything to happen to her.

Glad to hear it.
Quote:

As far as the timelines go. I didn't actually join this site until December 30th, 2008. So this would be my 8th month on here. W announced she wanted a D back in September 2008 which was the second bomb and never changed her mind since. She originally wanted a D in February 2008, but then we reconciled the week we were down in Florida for my mom's funeral in April. I did grieve over my mom. But at the same time, I was somewhat side tracked by my W's wanting a D and then us reconciling. I had mixed emotions on everything through that period. Everything seemed to be going well, so I thought from April until September when she started seeing OM. Nothing has been the same since.


Were you drinking then, or promising to quit?


Quote:

W doesn't know that I am going to see the priest each week. I haven't told her because I didn't think it would be recieved well. So she thinks that I am going to counseling each week. I had told her earlier on that I was going to AA. I guess I need to start going back and work through this 12 step process.

You guess. That doesn't souund like a committment. When are you going to start back?

Quote:

I am waiting to hear back from the C regarding my girls. Once I have more info, I will bring it up to W. I think my D11 needs it to, not just D7. D11 seems to have a lot of anger and I'm sure some of it is stimming from the current situation. We were talking about Jesus coming back some day and she said she doesn't know why Jesus would want to take her. We talked some more. But that kind of startled me that she thinks that. That says there are some things going on in her mind that need to be worked out.

D7 asked me this morning if I gave W the card. I said yes. She then asked if W liked it. I said I don't know and that I gave it to her as she was leaving. Then D7 asked me if W gave me a card. I said no, but that W has been very busy with her friend being sick from this thing she contracted. D11 was just quiet.

I talked to my dad this morning after I dropped off my girls. He is doing well at my sisters place. They are all doing good. He is just getting things set up how he likes on the 3rd floor of their house.

Yes, I know I need to continue to work no myself in order to have a chance at my W again down the road.
So when does the work start? You have made some progress, what comes next?
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/04/09 06:33 PM
Hint, hint, nag, nag.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/04/09 06:49 PM
Quote:
Were you drinking then, or promising to quit?


I had quit when she annoucned the D back in February 2008. I quit for a few months. Then she told me it was fine to drink some. So I did. Then I drank, not to the level I used to, but still and uncomfortable level. Then when she said she wanted a D again in September 2009, I quit again. But I also fell apart in every other way. At times she told me that she wished I would start drinking again just so I could handle myself better.

Quote:
You guess. That doesn't souund like a committment. When are you going to start back?


ASAP. Saturday. Maybe Friday night. I'm busy tonight through Thursday night.

Quote:
So when does the work start? You have made some progress, what comes next?


The work is going on. I am doing things for me. Working out, dancing, hanging with friends, reading the bible, going to church, spending time with my kids, etc. I am actually sore today from doing push ups and squats last night. Tomorrow night I do them again. Tonight I will just walk my 4 miles on the nature hike with a friend tonight. I'm making myself healthier and more physically fit. I am also eating a lot more vegetables and changing my diet around.

grin

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/04/09 06:50 PM
Quote:
Hint, hint, nag, nag.


That cracks me up. lol.

laugh

Kevin
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/05/09 03:38 PM
Hi Kevin,

If you get a chance jump over to my thread. I left you a message there.
Posted By: jon2911 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/05/09 08:06 PM
Kevin,
Are you and FaithfulH still talking about getting together with other DBers from Dallas?


Jon
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/05/09 08:07 PM
Jon2911,

Yes. We are. Are you here in the area?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/05/09 09:15 PM
Jon, if you want to meet for dinner or something let me know. FaithfulH won't be back in town until sometime later this month. He is in the transition of relocating down here.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/06/09 02:15 PM
Ironically I ran into my SIL last night at a softball game that I went to with 2 lady friends that were playing who said I should come to the game.

SIL asked how I was and proceeded to tell me that the reason MIL is against me is because my W keeps lying to her about me. Then she told me that my W is blaming me for the D being dismissed. I said how is that possible when I am not the one that filed? She said my W is telling everyone that I had the papers so W couldn't remember what the date was. I said that is not true. I said we both had copies of the papers that were signed and notorized. She has a copy and I have a copy. My SIL said she knows that and my W is lying about things.

That kind of frusturated me. Every time I want to put some kind of faith into my W, something else happens to make me lose it.

I also found my W owes $2,500 in rent as of today. She hasn't paid since early June and that was only a quarter payment for the month of June. Why isn't she managing her money better? I guess the track record continues.

Kevin

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/06/09 02:28 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I also found my W owes $2,500 in rent as of today. She hasn't paid since early June and that was only a quarter payment for the month of June. Why isn't she managing her money better?


maybe its time to divorce her before you get hung out to dry
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/06/09 02:42 PM
Do NOT talk to family members about ANY issues between you and your W or the divorce. It will only cause more strife and distance and major conflict and will NOT help heal a darn thing.

If her family brings up something to you simply say in a polite fashion that all matters between you and your W are private and you prefer not to discuss them. If they dont get the hint be more firm in setting your boundaries and stick to them.

I can assure you that nothing good will come of you discussing your W and/or the divorce with HER family members even if they bring it up.

Same with the info the SIL gave you about the rent money. Simply say that you would prefer not to talk about it and how she manages her money is her business and leave it at that.

Do not get baited in a discussion because you want info. You have no idea if any of this is true and gossip never leads anywhere positive.

If you must walk away from the person feeding you this info but do not engage.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/06/09 02:45 PM
Apparently according to my SIL, my W also through a fit about not being able to use her mom's car while her van was in the shop. Her mom apparently finally gave in after W through a big enough fit.

Steve, the house my W is renting belongs to her step father, so she won't get into any kind of legal trouble that would affect me. But he will demand the money from her. That much I am sure of as I have seen him to it before with her.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/06/09 02:47 PM
CG,

I didn't ask for any info. SIL just decided to provide it to me. I probably should have asked her not to talk to me about it though.

Next time I will just ask her not to discuss it with me.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/06/09 04:41 PM
No, dont ask her not to, tell her you will not discuss it and you would appreciate her not to bring anything up regarding your W again.

(A) keeping family out of it is key and it will only add more bad feelings and it borders on gossip.

(B) You are not detached enough to hear these things because you have now made 2 posts about your W and HER issues/problems. So, 2 mentions of your W in one day. We are back to square one of you not mentioning your W at all.

If you were detached anything you hear about her would go in one ear and out the other and you wouldnt give it a second thought. And you wouldnt have to worry about giving it a second thought if you removed yourself from any conversation about your W from a third party source. Especially if that 3rd party source is one of HER family members.

Your W's SIL might act all friendly and conversational with you but anything that is said will go right back to your W and it might not be in the correct context. It sort of speaks volumes that your SIL would bring up what your W is saying at all, dont you think?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/06/09 04:51 PM
Quote:
It sort of speaks volumes that your SIL would bring up what your W is saying at all, dont you think?


I am not sure that I follow what you are saying on this sentence. Do you mean it speaks volumes against my W or how my SIL might be or what?

Kevin
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/06/09 04:58 PM
Thanks CityGirl - everything is right back to where it was. I know you are trying hard to get Kev to detach. I can't believe how much he talks and wonders about whatshername. I'm not sure what else we can do. There is no way I'll believe that she doesn't sense this in him and is completely turned off right now. No way anyone here can convince me otherwise.

Kev, bro - get back to you. Get back to where you were. Don't care about her back rent or who thinks what about dropping the D. You need to start working harder at this. No more two steps forward, three steps back. It has to got to stop.

Get back to not thinking or talking or mentioning her. You'll be amazed how much you can accomplish.

I want to hear more about the two women that invited you to the softball game. Where are you in the 100 pushup club? What else do you have going on for you?? Please stop the madness.

Strength and Honor.

Mules
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/06/09 05:19 PM
Quote:
I want to hear more about the two women that invited you to the softball game. Where are you in the 100 pushup club? What else do you have going on for you??


The 2 women that invited me are just friends. One is a former coworker. I went and watched them play. I'm a little worried about the fact that SIL was there and that she might tell my W something that was not true as we are merely friends and nothing more. They know where I stand on my M.

I was supposed to do push ups and squats again last night, but I was so sore that I couldn't do it. I'm am going to attempt to do it tonight and saturday to stay on track.

For me, I am hanging out with people, reading, and I am planning on going dancing with friends Friday night and do my nature hike Saturday during the day and church on Sunday and then dinner with a bunch of friends Sunday night.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/06/09 05:32 PM
[quote=K4DI'm a little worried about the fact that SIL was there and that she might tell my W something that was not true as we are merely friends and nothing more. [/quote]

????????????????????????????????????????????????? Worried? might be the best thing that could possibly have happened Kevin. Wow. Kevin's got some girlfriends. Wow. Kevin isnt as depressive and needy as I taught. Wow. Kevin's moving on with his life without me. Has Kevin changed? Hmmmmm... maybe I will call him to tell him I'm up $hit creek and in debt. Wow. Kevin's not answering. Is he out with those softball sluts agains? What am I doing? Where am I going? Where's Kevin?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/06/09 07:18 PM
She would actually be happy about it. It would mean to her that I am further out of her life and that could further justify her actions that she is taking in her mind.

But I guess we will see if anything comes from it.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/06/09 07:29 PM
you dont know that for sure. you are mind reading.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/06/09 07:33 PM
She would actually be happy about it. It would mean to her that I am further out of her life and that could further justify her actions that she is taking in her mind.

Again, more speculation and mind reading on your part which leads to you ALLOWING your W to fill your head space again. Wasting mental and emotional energy on what your W may or may not be thinking takes away from the work you need to be doing and shows how far you are from even being slightly detached.

But I guess we will see if anything comes from it.

Since you want to see if anything comes from it, it seems to me you have some expectation or hope something *will* come from it. It seems you had a motive of some sort and the motive wasnt for the GAL Kevin, it was for your W. Again, not detached at all.

And it speaks volumes that your soon to be ex SIL would share things with you about your W such as her financial issues, squabbles with her mom or the divorce papers. It smacks of gossip and people that try and "share info" of such a personal nature usually are the ones to stay away from. If she wanted to visit with you and ask about the kids or your job or some other neutral topic that is fine but the topic of conversation was inappropriate and IMO brought up for a reason.

But once again - toady has been all about your speculating, mind reading and wondering about your W. Shocker.
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/06/09 08:07 PM
Quote:
The 2 women that invited me are just friends. One is a former coworker. I went and watched them play. I'm a little worried about the fact that SIL was there and that she might tell my W something that was not true as we are merely friends and nothing more. They know where I stand on my M.



Kev - Who cares what she thinks?? A I actually think it would be great if she got the wrong impression. Maybe slap her down a notch or two. Stop worrying about her, and stop trying to figure out what she's thinking. You can't control her. You control you. But the thing is, you're not controlling you. In a way, you're letting her control you. Stop it. Please. Listen, we've all been where you are. That's why we're here trying to help you. And we all did this. That's why I know you can also. Stop mentioning her.

Start living for you. Not for you AND her. It's you and the kids. Just Do It.

Strength and Honor.

Mules
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/06/09 08:11 PM
Originally Posted By: CityGirl
She would actually be happy about it. It would mean to her that I am further out of her life and that could further justify her actions that she is taking in her mind.

Again, more speculation and mind reading on your part which leads to you ALLOWING your W to fill your head space again. Wasting mental and emotional energy on what your W may or may not be thinking takes away from the work you need to be doing and shows how far you are from even being slightly detached.

But I guess we will see if anything comes from it.

Since you want to see if anything comes from it, it seems to me you have some expectation or hope something *will* come from it. It seems you had a motive of some sort and the motive wasnt for the GAL Kevin, it was for your W. Again, not detached at all.

And it speaks volumes that your soon to be ex SIL would share things with you about your W such as her financial issues, squabbles with her mom or the divorce papers. It smacks of gossip and people that try and "share info" of such a personal nature usually are the ones to stay away from. If she wanted to visit with you and ask about the kids or your job or some other neutral topic that is fine but the topic of conversation was inappropriate and IMO brought up for a reason.

But once again - toady has been all about your speculating, mind reading and wondering about your W. Shocker.


Yup. Couldn't put it any better than that. or any clearer. And I love what Steve McQ wrote. It's perfect.

Kev - people can only be helped if they want to be helped. I read your thread and sometimes wonder if you want to be helped. You have so many great people guiding you here. But you are not trying. Please listen. Please read and reread the posts to you. Then react.

Mules
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/07/09 01:58 AM
My W called and told me tonight that our van is going to cost more to fix than it is worth, so she may trade it in for another vehicle.

Then she told me that she may need me to help her out financially for a month.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/07/09 02:50 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D

That kind of frusturated me. Every time I want to put some kind of faith into my W, something else happens to make me lose it.

I also found my W owes $2,500 in rent as of today. She hasn't paid since early June and that was only a quarter payment for the month of June. Why isn't she managing her money better? I guess the track record continues.



Right now, Kevin, you should not have faith in your W. You should have faith in you and only you. What could, might, maybe might happen with your wife requires you to have faith, strength, patience, and self-relience.

Simply put, the WA is in a fog. She doesn't know up from down right now. She could be working her way back to you or totally done. That is reality. It is what it is.

I know it isn't what you want to hear, but it is true. Face it, have a good cry if you have to and then work on Kevin.

A person that gets that far behind in rent is not ready for you to put faith in them yet. TBD, to be determined.

DO NOT talk to family about this. Intel does nothing for you and certainly can come back to bite you in the ars down the road. Understand?
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/07/09 02:56 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
My W called and told me tonight that our van is going to cost more to fix than it is worth, so she may trade it in for another vehicle.

Then she told me that she may need me to help her out financially for a month.

Kevin


I am so sorry to hear that W. I have to think about your request.

Wait at least 48 hours to answer. Don't answer calls, texts or emails for 48 hours. You have been busy, with AA, with C, with C for the girls. (You have, haven't you?) Been giving it thought.

Decide if you really want to help. Not because you think it will make her come back to you or see you as the nice guy.

Ask yourself how in the heck she is going to trade in the car, get a new one, and then make the payments. Oh, that's right. She asked you for financial help.

Be careful, Kevin.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/07/09 11:40 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Then she told me that she may need me to help her out financially for a month.

Kevin


LOL. you do know where this is going?

make sure you wear protection! you have no idea who your wife has been sleeping with. and for god's sake, keep your heart out of it, kevin. it is only going to be "give me money" sex.

Steve McQueen
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/07/09 01:09 PM
Treat her like you would one of your buddies.

Hey man can I borrow $500 this month? I cant afford my rent. blah...

How would you respond?

Dont do anything different.

This is a perfect opportunity for you to test your boundaries and detachment.

PMA
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/07/09 02:52 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
My W called and told me tonight that our van is going to cost more to fix than it is worth, so she may trade it in for another vehicle.

Then she told me that she may need me to help her out financially for a month.

Kevin


Hey K!! Wow this is a surprise. Not! Just remember what she has been saying to your SIL about you. I think she has some set on her to come and ask you for money. She is going to use you, and try to take advantage of your good nature. Don't fall for it. Don't forget that she owes the rent money also. Bro, if I was you I would not give her one penny. I guess the grass is not greener, but that's not your problem.

Here's your opportunity.

"W - I'm very sorry to hear you are going through financial difficulties right now. That must be so hard. I really hope things turn for you."

And leave. Bro, this is what she wanted. Let her have it, but don't throw it in her face. Lovingly detach, remember. She leaves you despite you being there for her, watching all the BS, hearing lies she's saying behind your back, and now she wants help????

Kev - this is an opportunity to look attractive. Show that you have moved on.

Just my $.02.

Strength and Honor.


Mules
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/07/09 03:01 PM
Mules. I agree. Perfect way to gain back some respect. She will swear up and down, but that is her STUFF not yours.

Helping out a "deserving" friend is onoe thing. Helping a cheating wayward WAW is another.

Seek God's help for this decision. Let GO and Let GOD!!!
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/07/09 04:21 PM
I will give it your W that she does appear to own a set of brass ones. I like the response above "Gee, W, I am sorry to hear of your financial troubles and I hope things turn around for you soon".

Say no more, no less. You cannot control her reaction so let her get mad, swear, yell or do whatever she is going to do. WAS that cheat dont get help on new car payments. Your W is nice to you when she needs something, otherwise she has made it clear you are highly disposable to her. This is your chance to begin setting a precedent - this will *not* continue.

You can validate her concerns and show compassion but that is it. This is a GOLDEN opportunity for you. As Ari Gold would say.... "silence is golden, Loyd" (are you an Entourage fan?). In your case... "silence is golden, Kevin"
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/07/09 06:32 PM
Here is the thing. She picked this health insurance plan that costs $600 a month. They didn't take out initial premiums the first couple of months. So they started taking out back premiums plus current premiums which brougt $1,200 a month out of my W's paycheck. I didn't help out with any of that being as how I thought it was a bad plan to begin with and I told her that, but she signed up for it anyways. Again, my thinking was that she already makes almost twice what I do, so she can pick up the premiums. Everything else I split the bills with her. But between that and missing work and the van needing repairs and her not compromising her lifestyle, she has hit some financial issues that she is trying to figure out how to cover. She has to get caught back up on her rent and now will probably get another vehicle. Of course she won't choose something smart and practicle to drive. She has to go for the bigger better vehicle.

Ya, I hold the title for the van and would have to sign it over for her to trade in along with maybe having to help her out financially for a month.

I guess I am just wondering what Jesus would expect of me in this situation. I am her covenant H regardless of what her mindset is. Does he expect me to help out being that I am her H? I would think that he does if she truly needs help. But I would think she could curve some things first before asking.

We will see what she does. I know that I will not co sign for a new vehicle for her given the obvious situation at this time. Maybe she will be able to get it without me.

"give me money" sex. Interesting. That would be expensive sex. lol.

Kevin
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/07/09 06:38 PM
You know what they say...

You get what you pay for.. Make sure you get your money's worth laugh
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/07/09 07:50 PM
I wont even comment on the money for sex thing.

I think your W is starting to realize that divorce MUST bring changes in lifestyle. This might be her wake up call that she must curb her spending, downgrade certain things, budget and realize that part of ending a marriage is being 110% fiscally responsible for yourself.

I stand my by initial thought - if you are helping out w/half the bills then the new car issue is her problem. You said yourself you are driving around in a 10 year old car and you will need a new one soon. So, you worry about funding your vehicle and let her worry about her own vehicle.

If you are paying half the bills why is she so behind on the rent? That makes no sense.

She has no problem coming to you for errands, extra childcare or money. She has no problems telling you how sloppy your daughters look when they are with you but otherwise, as I said, you seem to be highly disposable to her when you are of no use to her. She had no problem giving you all the junky furniture and essentially telling you where to live and what apartment to choose. So, basically, if she is not controlling you or needing you for a favor, she doesnt seem to be open to much else. Tell her to look in to the Cash for Clunkers program - if she is driving a huge car its not fuel efficient and there is no reason for her not to choose an affordable and reliable vehicle. Or, let her drown in more debt. Either way its HER choice.

Jesus would want you to be a strong man for YOU and YOU first.
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/07/09 10:03 PM
Kev-All I needed to read in your post was her "not compromising her lifestyle". She's a big girl. It's her problem. Stop rescuing or trying to rescue. You think you are helping her and in turn helping you. It only makes you look weaker. That's the last I'll post about it. You decide.

Mules
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/08/09 01:02 AM
I agree with Mules above, but also note you talking about her having chosen a plan that you didn't agree with and was too expensive.

Kevin, a covenant husband stands beside his wife and supports her EMOTIONALLY, not financially. Have you read the Book of Proverbs? Each man's way is right in his own eyes. A good wife is a wonderful gift but an adulterous wife is like a stone around a man's neck.

Kevin, no amount of financial assistance is going to change her, make her pause, or make her love you. You know me, you know I consider myself a stander, also. But this is not standing.

Being taken advantage of by your wife will not make her see you as strong or dependable. She will just be taking advantage of you and taking you for granted. Don't be her fall-back here.

She made her choices and you have to let her feel the consequences. If you rescue her then you aren't standing. You are letting her get away. You are telling her you are here no matter what she does to you. That doesn't appear strong and she will not admire you for it.
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/08/09 03:00 AM
KJ-what a great post! Kev, what are you thinking about bro? Let us know. We care.

Strength and Honor.

Mules
Posted By: kiwi000 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/08/09 09:46 AM
Hi Kev,

I am 2.5 years into DBing and until you really actually detach, you won't make huge progress. Once you do, you'll find a whole new WAS who's more curious about you and who is forced to take stock of her life and see what's she's missing out on. GAL isn't about generating jealousy, it's about working on yourself but it sure does work in my experience.

If she's annoyed about your softball outings or any other social engagements, GREAT! But if you're not comfortable with it, I'd recommend don't do it yet because your discomfort will be obvious and it isn't really GAL becauyse it isn't about you. Sounds like you have things you do enjoy so keep those up.

Hey mulesqb, great line from your Dad!!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/08/09 04:27 PM
I guess I am thinking that maybe it is best that I don't rescue her if she asks for money. Its not to be mean because I do want to help her. But I guess I am continuing to enable her to live this adulterous lifestyle if I do rescue her. And you are right, it won't change anything by me rescuing her. She won't have any respect for me. Besides, she can dig her way out of this hole with as much money as she makes. She should be able to do it very quickly.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/08/09 04:57 PM
Conversation between me and W this morning.

K4D: How much do you want to pay to the credit card?
W: what's the minimum i can pay?
K4D: $34
W: what's the balance?
K4D: $1,109.29
W: $200
K4D: Ok
W: since i'm probably buying a new car this weekend or week
K4D: Maybe you should look at getting something more reliable, cheaper, and economically better right now than a kia
W: how do you figure?
K4D: You can always trade it in later when you are in a better situation
W: i can get a new one for $14K
W: gets great crash ratings
W: and i can get 100% financing
K4D: You could also get a car for 7k like a toyota corola or something
W: what is your deal?
W: if i do that, i have to put down a down payment
W: i obviously dont have a grand to do that with
W: or i'd fix the damn thing
K4D: Just trying to give some practical advice
W: so you're telling me you don't think i'm being practical
W: thanks
K4D: Not with buying a brand new vehicle right now
W: with payments at $200 and not putting money down, that's not practical?
W: i should instead try to pull $1K out of my ass and pay the same monthly
W: that's what you're telling me?
K4D: Did you check the long term reliability and maintenence with the kia in consumer reports? Also gas milage compared to an economical car?
W: i need to focus on cost right now kevin
W: and yes, to qualify for the cash for clunkers, it has to get a minimum of 5-10 mpgs more than the van
W: now, i didn't ask for your opinion. so please stop
W: i'm aware that you think so little of my opinion
W: thank you for confirming it over and over again
K4D: I don't think little of your opinion. Was just trying to offer a helpful alternative
W: i can get a minimum of $7K off a new vehicle.
W: i'm probablly not going to own it til its dead
W: i just need no down payment.. little monthly payments that is safe
W: and obviously i'll pay for less in gas b/c it has to get better milage to qualify for obamas program
K4D: But a kia versus a toyota or honda?
W: alright... this is talking about more than the kids
W: bye

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/08/09 04:59 PM
W is talking about getting a brand new kia sportage. She will still have to get me to sign over the mazda title for her to be able to trade it in. This should be interesting.

Kevin
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/08/09 05:34 PM
Quote:
W: now, i didn't ask for your opinion. so please stop
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/08/09 06:41 PM
Kevin-that conversation is a disaster.Look at the way you handled it. Pretend you were on someone else's thread. Bro, you are pushing her farther and farther away. In Siberia.

Mules
Posted By: Sara Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/08/09 08:32 PM
Mules is right. Don't argue with her over her car purchase. She's a big girl, and now is the time to trade in old cars for new ones. You can't buy a used car with the Cash for Clunkers money.If she misses this opportunity, a car will cost her more later. And then it will be your fault.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/08/09 10:36 PM
I just don't want to be financially linked to any big purchases she makes right now. I am not sure how the marriage laws work in Texas regarding her getting a new vehicle loan while married to me. What happens if she loses her job? Can the bank come after me for that loan? Does it affect my credit also? She knows her job is ending in December.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/08/09 10:37 PM
I guess when she comes to ask me for money or to sign over the title to the van I can say this is talking about the kids so I am not discussing it.

Kevin
Posted By: Sara Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/08/09 11:24 PM
Quote:
I just don't want to be financially linked to any big purchases she makes right now. I am not sure how the marriage laws work in Texas regarding her getting a new vehicle loan while married to me. What happens if she loses her job? Can the bank come after me for that loan? Does it affect my credit also? She knows her job is ending in December.


That's a whole different reason for being against the purchase. Why didn't you tell her that one?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/08/09 11:34 PM
I was trying to minimize potential future financial issues but at the same time, still help her get something that can work for her.

She called me again on her way over to drop off D7 with me for the night. She again started talking about her car day and riding in vehicles and what she wants to do. I didn't offer any opinions. I just said ok.

Then she got to my apartment and started talking about it again. Again, I offered no opinions. I just listened.

Then I looked at her and said later. I started to walk off. She then asked me as I was walking off what time she could expect D7 back over tomorrow. I said dunno. Then I said we will talk about it later as I walked out and into D7's room to say hi to her. W just stood there as I walked by her. Then I heard her leave. I came back out into the living room at that point. W was done up looking good for her night out. I sat down and just thought for a few minutes. I thought what does it take to turn this M around. Please don't answer that as I already know what the answer would be and I can't argue with it.

Maybe I should have answered her at that point. But I just didn't want to talk to her. I guess I was some what pissed at her for this continous garbage of how she is acting. I'm sure I came off as a jerk. That bothers me even more.

If she doesn't want my opinion on her vehicle choices, why does she keep talking to me about them? I am so tired of the coldness from her except for when it is convenient for her to not be. I guess I just showed some coldness back to her tonight. Probably not a great DBing move on my part.

I guess I will text her later and let her know when I will be bringing D7 back tomorrow since I am basically babysitting tonight for W so she doesn't have to pay for one. I agreed to it so I am not complaining as I love spending time with both of my daughters.

I am trying to figure out emotionally how to detach yet still love her and pray for her and out M restoration.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 12:27 AM
I texted W and told her I would drop off D7 about 1pm tomorrow after church. She said ok and thanks.

Kevin
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 12:32 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I am trying to figure out emotionally how to detach yet still love her and pray for her and our M restoration.

Kevin


It doesn't take effort so much as it does discipline. It is within your power, given patience and time...and discipline, to detatch. Detatching doesn't mean you stop loving them. You can still ask God to guide her with discernment and wisdom...and ask him to let the Holy Spirit move within her. And ask the same things of God for yourself too! Let her go. In your mind and soul, let her go. It's a decision. It's convincing yourself that you have no control over anybody other than yourself.

Just do it. Others do...eventually, and you will too...eventually. But, you gotta want to!
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 12:51 AM
Why on Earth are you still sitting there wondering what it will take to restore this marriage? I honestly dont know what else to say to you. Your marriage is over. Done. There is nothing to restore. At this time your W is NOT interested in rebuilding with you yet you sit there and waste your time and energy wondering how to restore something that is long gone. Again, taking away from restoring YOU.

I would like you to remember how frustrated and invalidated you felt about 2 months ago when your W did not approve of your apartment choice and was very vocal about it. You felt she was not respecting your choices about where to live and how to spend your money. And what happened today? You did the SAME thing to your W about the vehicle. You invalidated her choices and offered her no support. You again tried to control things with HER car just as your W did with YOUR apartment hunt. It didnt feel good when she did that to you and I am sure it didnt feel good to her today.

The two of you need to stop this power struggle. Its unhealthy for you and for your children.

If you are concerned about finances and major purchases it is very simple to have a document drawn up and notarized during this time of limbo that spells out exactly who will be responsible for what.

Restoration and detachement, at the stage you are stuck in, do not go hand in hand.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 01:58 AM
You got that right. We had a major blow out fight tonight. Nothing left unsaid when I wouldn't sign over the title. I will explain later.

It was a huge huge fight, the biggest we have had yet. Was not good. But I stood my ground. She really really hates me. Whatever. I will not compromise any longer. She even started the threats again.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 04:50 PM
W is going to re file for divorce this week and have me served. I totally blew it last night. I went way overboard in our argument. She said she doesn't believe that I could ever love her based on things I said last night in anger. I can't believe I blew it.

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 05:02 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I can't believe I blew it.


Kevin,

Well, if you let your anger control you, then you're the one who decided to "blow it".

Have you been drinking?

What happened?

Stacy
Posted By: mac-ct Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 05:05 PM
Kev,

What the heck happened between yesterday and today to cause this fight?

Mac
Posted By: Sara Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 05:12 PM
Did you even mention the real reason you don't want to sign the title? Admittedly, it does look like you are using your position as her legal husband to try to control her. She wants a car. It is the best time to buy a car. A Kia Spectra is not a wild and crazy purchase. What makes you think that she won't be able to find work after December? $200./month car payment is very cheap. There are none cheaper.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 06:00 PM
I relapsed last night. I am so ashamed to even admit it. Yall were right. I have been in tears this morning. I'm going back to AA and going through the full program.

My W hates me and she is with someone else again. She thinks what I said was me just being mean. She doesn't know that I relapsed and I don't know whether to tell her or not because I don't want her thinking it was me just being mean. But I don't know which would look worse.

I tried telling her this morning I am extremely sorry and I really do love her and I let things get control of me last night when we started fighting. She said I couldn't love her with the things I said.

I don't know what to tell her. I am so afraid of whether to tell her the truth or not. It wasn't me talking last night.

I totally screwed up and don't know what to do now. How can she ever respect me again or know that I do really love her?

I am completely torn apart today. How could I have been so stupid? How could I have made such poor choices? What has my life come to? It just doesn't feel like it is worth living anymore. What have I done?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 06:02 PM
I don't feel like I am worth anyone's respect. I became such a loser. No wonder my W wants nothing to do with me.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 06:13 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I can't believe I blew it.


I DO. YOU DO NOT PAY ATTENTION TO ANYTHING ANYBODY HERE SAYS TO YOU!!!

Originally Posted By: K4D

I totally blew it last night. I went way overboard in our argument. She said she doesn't believe that I could ever love her based on things I said last night in anger.


You have a history of instability, but you also have a right to stand up for yourself. From what you tell us about her see plays you as her fool and you let her. So you stand up for yourself and she doesn't like it. BIG F'ing DEAL KEVIN.

But what did you really say that what was so destructive to your so-called 'marriage'? A continuation of the way you acted in you alcoholism days, per chance?

Originally Posted By: K4D
W is going to re file for divorce this week and have me served.


Bone Up on your Softball, Dude.

50% chance she is bluffing looking for you to pay for her crusier. 50% chance you need this divorce, as a kick in the pants to start moving on down the road.

Steve McQueen
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 06:15 PM
you were drunk?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 06:18 PM
I called her an adulterous high dollar prostitue. I was so angry at her. She wants nothing to do with me now and I can't blame her. How could I have said that.

This morning she said she doesn't care what I do with the van. She will get her vehicle anyways.

I TOTALLY BLEW IT. I KNOW I DID. I LET THINGS GET TO ME AND I BLEW IT. I WENT OFF THE DEEP END and now I am in serious regret.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 06:25 PM
but were you intoxicated?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 06:26 PM
I told her this morning that I did not mean the things I said last night. It didn't matter to her. She asked me if I was going to sign the waiver of service or be served. I told her to go ahead and serve me.

Do I tell her I drank last night? Which is worse? Letting her think that I said it straight or letting her know I relapsed during our fighting? I don't know which to do.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 06:28 PM
Quote:
but were you intoxicated?


Yes. I am extremely ashamed of myself and feel completely destroyed this morning. I don't know which way to turn.

I know everyone is going to say "I told you so". And rightfully so.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 06:29 PM
I had been working so hard on my faith and I completely relapsed.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 06:41 PM
let her heal. she is escaping from a highly abusive relationship. she was married to an alcoholic.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 06:49 PM
I found out last night from her sister that she was physically abused as a child and that she has real issues from it.

I never knew that.

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 07:25 PM
Kevin,

Did you call her after you started drinking -- or go over by her or what? I guess it doesn't matter.

Whatever happens with your marriage, I hope this whole incident served as a SERIOUS WAKE UP CALL regarding your enduring love affair with alcohol. I know we've said it and said it, but Kev, GET SOME HELP. Find an AA group you're comfortable with, and then go every day.

And follow up on counseling for your girls.

Are your girls with you or their mom right now? Did they witness any of the ugliness that transpired last night?

Please, Kevin, get help -- if not for yourself, for your daughters.

Leave your wife alone, Kevin. She's trying to escape from an abusive marriage. Being married to an alcoholic is an abusive marriage, whether you agree right now or not.

Keep posting, is there someone there you can talk to? Maybe FaithfulH?

Take care,

Stacy
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 07:26 PM
This is not about an "I told you so moment". However, now maybe you will see in a very clear fashion why we have all been on you back for months to get your arse into AA or some real solution based counseling. You didnt do either because that would have meant some hard and painful work. Instead, you chose to turn to religion (fine but you needed additional tools that prayer alone could not offer you) because prayer does not require the work that counseling/AA does.

I dont know what else it will take you to see your patterns. You blow it because you are not detached and not getting the help you need to be able to handle and manage your emotions on a day to day basis or in the heat of a challenging situation. You do not have the tools to release the control you try and have over your W. And you dont have the tools to NOT let your W fill your headspace on a constant basis.

This all leads to you *trying* to do damage control which as you might finally realize, only makes things worse.

For weeks we have heard you say that you are standing for your marriage an as a husband it is your covenant duty to be there for your W. You have said that to a point where it is now preachy. Yet, in 24 hours you totally invalidated her choices about a vehicle she is planning to purchase (which is safe, reliable and in her budget), tried to control what she would purchase by giving her "advise" and then called her a money grubbing whore in the heat of an argument while you were drunk.

You didnt relapse on your faith. You were unable to stay true to your faith because you lack the other tools (counseling, AA) that faith can enhance. Faith is an amazing part of life and in some form we all *need* faith but, as LBS, we also *need* some form of counseling that will help us find solutions to our problems and flaws. We *need* guidance on how to rebuild ourselves as indviduals (or co-parents in some cases) and how to detach in a healthy and loving manner. We *need* direction on how to communicate to a WAS that hurt us deeply in a way that will not cause more damage. And we *need* the insight that sometimes only counseling can provide of what our roll, as the LBS, played in the demise of the marriage.

Faith cant give you any of those things. What faith can give you is the strength and courage to pursue the really hard things (counseling, AA, group support of some kind). I hope that clicks for you now.

You took the easy way out and now you are kicking yourself. This might just be the greatest lessson of your life - the easy way out is not the *best* way out. And yes, its a *very* painful lesson to learn but until you really embrace the concept nothing will change.

At this point there is NOTHING you can do but leave your W alone. Apologize in a true and simple fashion for the names you called her and participating in the argument you had. Make no excuses and offer no explanations other than you are sorry for acting in such a disrespectful and vindictive manner. Then end the conversation. Period.

If you dont get into AA or counseling or BOTH this week then you really havent learned a damn thing about the painful weekend you have just experienced.

Accept it, Kevin. You most probably will get served this week and your marriage will legally over. Its been emotionally over for a very long time. It hurts. It stings and it feels like hell. Now is your time to fix yourself and rebuild YOUR life for YOU and your children. Stop turning your back on the opportunities you have and bow out of because they are hard.

You are 34 years old, its time to become a man. Are you ready? Do you want that?

My H has said some nasty things to me over the past 19 months but he has never and would NEVER call me a whore. I am shocked you would call your W that seeing how you proclaim your love for her on a hourly basis. Did your daughters hear that? How would you feel if a man called one of your little girls a whore? Dont use that word again no matter how angry you are. Its foul and disgusting.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 07:30 PM
W and I talked. She said she had figured I had been drinking last night. I said yes. I relapsed after during our fight. She said she could tell.

She said thank you for the apology and I explained that was not me last night. I explained I had been doing so well and then I just relapsed last night and that I am getting back on the straight and narrow today. She said I should go be with friends today since I don't have any plans. I told her I love her and I am not saying it to make her mad that I just don't want her to believe what was said last night.

I told her I do miss her and am tired of being apart from her all the time. She said it is going to be a long long time before we can do anything together.

My life has truly spiraled into nothingness. Where is my faith? Why do I feel so alone? I flat out crashed. Now I have to pick myself back up and I don't feel like getting up.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 07:42 PM
My daughters didn't hear anything. D11 is in Florida and D7 was not around.

I know I should not have called her that. She called me some things also and I should just have not responded. I said it after I had been drinking, not before. It was later on in the night.

I probably will get served this week. She seemed completely serious about it.

I don't consider it an abusive M just because we had a major arguement last night.

Yes, this is a wake up call. I'm going to AA and doing the 12 step program.

I did tell her that I do not think any of those things about her and I wish I had not said it.

It was a terrible thing to say. I guess because she has been going after guys with money it just came out of me. But I should never ever have said it. I can't believe I let it slip out.

The D process will be a minimum of 4 months.

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 07:46 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D


I don't consider it an abusive M just because we had a major arguement last night.



It's an abusive M because you are an alcoholic.

And, in my opinion, people usually say what they REALLY think when they're drinking. Inhibitions are lower, and things do tend to "slip out". Deep down, I think you do feel your wife has been a "whore", I don't think you said it to be mean, that's what you think. If you didn't think that, you never would have said it.

Instead of being served, why don't you just sign? Do you want to be embarrassed at work? What's the point?

Are you following up on counseling for your girls tomorrow??

Stacy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 07:48 PM
Quote:
Did you call her after you started drinking -- or go over by her or what?


I called her to tell her the van is in my name and I wasn't sure I wanted to get rid of it. From there she gave me a tiraid of yelling, crying, cussing me out, etc etc etc. I got mad and we responded back and forth through the night.

I did not reflect a stander last night and I am completely ashamed of myself. I completely threw everything out last night. I have no pride in myself. I am completely broken today.

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 07:49 PM
Well, nothing to do but get back on the right path.

Is there someone you can call and talk to? You're pretty down right now.

When do your girls come home?

Stacy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 07:54 PM
I get D7 tomorrow. D11 won't be back from Florida until Saturday.

I don't feel like being around people today. You have no idea how embarrased and ashamed of myself I am.

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 08:22 PM
I understand what you're saying -- we all do -- everyone's done or said something embarrassing in their lives.

I just think it might do you some good to at least talk to someone -- a friend.

Have you been drinking today?

Stacy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 08:28 PM
I haven't been drinking today nor will I. I don't know who I could talk to. Its not like anyone would have any faith in me at this point. I feel like in relapsing I blew every ones trust. So why should anyone talk to me?

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 08:29 PM
Kevin,

Take a good, long look in the mirror and then forgive yourself, Kevin. That DOES NOT mean that you excuse the drinking or what you said or how you reacted in kind to her anger. Forgive yourself and begin again. The best part of sinking to your lowest level is that you have nowhere else to go, but up.

You have internet access; go online and get a list of AA meetings. I know for a fact that they are held every day in various locations. Do it now and go to the next available meeting. If you aren't comfortable then you go to the next one on your list.

You have to take responsibility here, Kev. Noone did this to you. You did this to you.

People do what works, Kevin. Wether you acknowledge it right now or not, people continue actions because they come with a payoff. It sounds sick in many cases, and I'm sure you can't possible comprehend that you got a payoff for any of last night's behavior.

You drank to relieve yourself of pain, and maybe to give you a little more courage to confront your w. It feels good to get that little buzz, and the other things were a bonus.

And, as awful as what you said to her was, you got to strike back at her. You got to tell her "what for." You got to tell her that heck no was she getting that car. You got to express your opinion and make her hurt the way you hurt.

Ok. All done. Start fresh and do it this minute.

It is worth getting up and starting fresh. Use the humiliated feeling to motivate yourself. Not because she will stop the D or come back to you Kev, but because nobody in the world should sink this low or feel this bad.

Do not "use" your faith Kevin; live it. Jesus forgives each and every one of us. We as humans have free will. He doesn't want you to drink, or fight with your W, or see you do anything bad, but he gave you free will. He wants to help, but you have to choose to get the help.

It is now, at your lowest, that he is the strongest. You have to get up and do this again.

You do know that your W and you are at Square 1 again. I can understand the anguish you feel. You burned yourself on the hot stove willing, Kevin. You have to stop touching the hot stove. Your scars will heal, even from this pain.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 08:32 PM
I feel like I have very little value right now as a person, none as a husband, and some as a father.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 08:32 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I haven't been drinking today nor will I. I don't know who I could talk to. Its not like anyone would have any faith in me at this point. I feel like in relapsing I blew every ones trust. So why should anyone talk to me?

Kevin


Talk to you soon.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 08:35 PM
Wifey,

Thanks. I have been looking at locations of AA today. I am trying to find a meeting to go to.

I am definitely at my lowest right now and I am definitely back to square one with W.

I don't feel like she will ever have faith in me now.

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 08:41 PM
Kev,

Call Wifey!!

Don't worry about whether or not your W will have faith in you. You need to have faith in you.

Stacy
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 08:42 PM
Excellent post, Wifey.
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 08:59 PM

"At this point there is NOTHING you can do but leave your W alone." - CityGirl


This is good advice, Kevin. Do it. You can!
Posted By: poet Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 09:20 PM
Well Geez,

I guess it's time to call in the big guns here. Kevin, I don't know you, but believe me when I tell you I know your spirt/your heart/your soul/your kind. You think no one can help you.

And you're right. No one can help you except you and God. And, no one but you can do this because -- as the first step in AA says, "...admitted that we were powerless over alchohol, that our lives had become unmanageable."

Kevin, if you are truly and alchoholic, and you are truly READY to recover, you will take that first step and finish them all....

http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf (check this out)

Believe me when I tell you that there are many people on this board who either belong to AA or should. If you want to
help yourself, you'll find that meeting and live those steps...forever!

Good luck, Keven.

poet
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 10:21 PM
I did talk to KJ on the phone. She really helped lift me back up.

Thanks KJ,

Kevin
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 10:41 PM
forward walking Kevin (or take a respite on a rock or something to catch your breath)...nothing but forward walking. What is behind you needs to be out of your vision ...from the memory of it there is a positive to be gained and that is it.

May you be immersed fully and completely in the Holy Spirit.

t
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/09/09 11:52 PM
I did tell Kevin that he is free to lean when he needs to. Lord knows there were so many that let me lean in my weak momemts. This is the first day of a fresh start -- for all of us & especially for Kevin.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/10/09 02:25 AM
I went to my AA meeting. The people were nice and friendly. They said the wanted to see me succeed. They told me they have meetings every day and that I can bring my kids and let them play in another room while they have the meeting. They told me the program does work as long as I work it. They were on step 6 in the 12 step book and they had me read some for everyone. We got into step 7 tonight. And they did the serenity prayer and I read the promises right before the prayer at the end.

I have a friend coming over to watch the movie "28 days ago".

I also went to dinner with this friend before the AA meeting.

Kevin
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/10/09 03:24 AM
Ok, one step at a time and keep moving forward. You can do this just keep it up and keep working!! Praise the Lord, tomorrow is a new and fresh day smile
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/10/09 05:03 AM
We watched the movie "28 days ago". It was good. It was about a lady who goes into rehab thinking she doesn't have a problem and figures out she did and works through it and comes out better after it.

There were a lot of good points in the movie. I highly recommend it for anyone that has not seen it yet.

Kevin
Posted By: mac-ct Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/10/09 07:24 AM
Kevin,

Looking over the last couple of dozen posts, I can see you picking yourself up again. Good for you.

Consider this your one and only dry run (no pun intended). wink
Your one and only size 13 hobnailed boot up the jaxie.

Not an end - a fresh beginning.

Kev, there are a few positives still in what your W said to you. One being "it'll be a long time". Not "never" - "a long time".

Give her the gift of that time for her to heal Kevin.

Pick yourself up - dust yourself down. You know what you did. You know what you need to do. Start again. Read the "manual". Act on it.

Keep the Faith my friend.

Mac
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/10/09 11:09 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
They said the wanted to see me succeed.


We all want to see you succeed also kevin. good luck.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/10/09 01:40 PM
Thanks.

I did a lot of thinking last night and this morning. I'm still in a lot of pain from what I did and said and what my W said and is doing.

But I finally realized that I have a lot of work that I have to do on myself that I cannot just get through faith. I have to make real changes and get help making those changes in who I am as an overall person.

I see this now. Its not enough to just have faith. You have to put work into changing you also. It was a hard realization to come to. I didn't want to admit that I couldn't do it alone. But I can't. I don't have the tools to do it alone.

I am handing my M and W over to God and I am putting my feet forward in getting the help that I need for myself. I know that until I do, nothing will ever change between me and W. It also hurts knowing I am back to square one. But that is the reality of the damage I did this weekend. 11 months if there was even any progress made was just wiped out by me not being smarter and realizing I have issues that have to be worked on.

Today is going to be a hard day as I continue to self analyze things and look in the direction I have to go without my W being by my side.

Kevin
Posted By: mac-ct Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/10/09 01:45 PM
Quote:
I cannot just get through on faith


Faith in yourself Kev.

Don't dissect every little thing - you'll die of old age.
You already know what you did, the results and got feedback (some good).

Chin up mate!

Mac
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/10/09 02:08 PM
I sure hope she doesn't go through with filing this week. But she probably will.

No, I can't keep dissecting everything. That does no good. I am looking for solution focused therapists. I can go every other week. Don't know that I can afford more than that.

I get D7 back tonight. D11 tried calling last night and I missed her call. I will call her tonight.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/10/09 02:31 PM
Its Monday. The start of a new week. Why do I feel hopeless today? I guess a weekend like I had will do that to you. But I have no where to go but up now.

Kevin
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/10/09 02:57 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I sure hope she doesn't go through with filing this week. But she probably will.



This is out of YOUR control now, so don't even think about it any more. Just work on you and your girls...
Posted By: mulesqb Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/10/09 03:04 PM
Hey Kev - Just checking in here and Wow! What a weekend. Listen bro, you are getting some great advice here from wonderful people. The only thing I want to add is to focus on your children. They need you to be right. Everything you do from here on in is to get yourself right for them. When you feel hopeless, focus on them. They deserve a dad. They deserve one that will be there for them. And YOU are that guy. That is your mission. Focus on getting sober and being a good father and everything else will fall into place for you. Maybe not the way you imagined. But there is a good life out there for you. You are a good man with a weakness. Fix it.


Strength and Honor.

Mules
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/10/09 03:08 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I sure hope she doesn't go through with filing this week. But she probably will.

No, I can't keep dissecting everything. That does no good. I am looking for solution focused therapists. I can go every other week. Don't know that I can afford more than that.


I hope she doesn't. Maybe it was said in anger, maybe not. You have to know it is a distinct possibility and prepare for that to happen. Also, Kevin, you remember what I said about the fact that D isn't the end. Keep building those legos until you graduate to an erector set!

Every two weeks is a good frequency for the C. I did that for a long time. Now I am up to every three weeks, although there was once I called to make a sooner appointment than the three week mark because I felt I needed it. The off week is where you put into practice things you've talked about the previous week.

I am so glad you found a good group. We all want you to succeed, and having people right there to support you is a plus!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/10/09 04:14 PM
Thanks all,

I will keep reminding myself of the legos building one step at a time to the masterpiece.

I'm going to succeed. It is just a hard road back starting all over again. But I can do this.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/10/09 04:25 PM
W got to work very late this morning. I wonder if she filed. I guess I will know if I get served.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/10/09 07:04 PM
"I see this now. Its not enough to just have faith. You have to put work into changing you also. It was a hard realization to come to. I didn't want to admit that I couldn't do it alone. But I can't. I don't have the tools to do it alone."

Gee I guess you never heard THAT before. Give me a break. We've been telling you this from day one and you kept arguing against us. We'll see if you actually make any changes or if you are just going to just start it up again but not follow through.

Not even 25mlc has been posting to you.

Like so many who have stopped posting to you already said before"

Detach
Go to Counseling
GAL

Sorry things went the way they did, but let's face it, we could see it coming except for you. Do something about it.
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/10/09 08:33 PM
Kevin,

What about counseling for your girls? When is that appointment?

Stacy
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/11/09 10:47 AM
Kev,

Giving you a bump.

What about counseling for your girls?

Stacy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/11/09 01:57 PM
Working on it. The C has not gotten back with me again and I haven't been as persistent in following up as I should.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/11/09 01:58 PM
Quote:
Not even 25mlc has been posting to you.


Yes, I know stuck. Thanks.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/11/09 07:58 PM
Plenty of work to do today. Thats for sure.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/11/09 08:00 PM
Well good luck to you.

We're all praying for you.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/11/09 08:00 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
Not even 25mlc has been posting to you.


Yes, I know stuck. Thanks.

Kevin


Dear Kevin,

I don't know what you are learning from this. I really don't. Maybe nothing. Or another "3 day lesson" in which you briefly "get it" but when the reality of the work you have to do sets in, you'll regress and go back to your "faith" of doing nothing hard, but expecting God to help you "b/c you believe and pray and preach to others..." which is not hard for you. That alone should tip you off that it isn't enough to get on the right track if you constantly choose the easy routes and wonder and wonder WHY some people here seem frustrated with you....while you play the "confused hapless Kevin..." But I know you enough to know it's an act. So lose the clueless act and clue in.

"God helps those who help themselves" and you were sent a lot of help here. But your stubborness stopped you from listening, and you kept choosing the easy way out under the guise of God. It's a misuse of faith, which is why I recommended the book "Blue Like Jazz" b/c it addresses how people do this a lot (but it's written by a believer.)

Anyhow SO YOU FELL...join the club of those who ARE sober and clean. Did you know that successful recoverers, meaning those of us who really do STAY sober and clean, usually include 1-2 relapses? Did you know that? Most successful recovering alcoholics stumble at least once, even after being sober for years, before they take the drink that gets them back into the old pattern. It's NOT always the first drink that gets them into trouble, so they fool themselves thinking "Hey, I can handle it NOW. See? I only had 2 or 3...."
At some point they have THE DRINK (Or drinks) that hurts them, or those they love, or total strangers in a car crash...(BTW, If you get a DUI now, you won't see the girls except maybe with supervised visits-and your wife will just love driving them to see you, NOT!).

But there are those who DO get sober and clean and at some point, they STAY clean and sober. They learn from their fall(s) so they don't keep stumbling. Be one of them. Don't fall so much that you stop getting up, and or stay in the gutter. As bad as you feel, you and your d's are worth being sober for. Do you want clear memories of them, or a blurred embarrassed recall of times you "maybe" were with them? What do you want THEIR recall of you to be? You passed out or slurring your speech, or yelling vulgarities at their mom, or muttering self pitying comments about how your life sucks and all is lost and hopeless...???? YOU DECIDE how you'll be recalled and viewed. To an extent. B/C You control whether you will be recalled as sober or drunk. But the rest of other's perceptions are what you have NO control over. Let those go...

Furthermore, your recovery will need to address the long term depression you have described having, which will help you address why you drank in the first place, which might have been self medicating, and why you drank while "happily" married, and continued to do so now, when stressed.

The main thing is this--

You continue to do a lot of looking backwards. Stop it. It's like you are trying to walk forwards WHILE still LOOKING backwards, staring at the past and lamenting it over and over. Imagine walking backwards...

Of course you stumbled, which you will keep doing b/c you are; 1) NOT seeing where you are, not looking around at what you could have NOW in your life and being grateful for it, and what you could be doing, instead of looking back at your past mistakes over & over and SO; 2) you can't see where you are headed even with SO MANY people warning you & So, of course you stumbled. Stop looking backwards. STOP IT.

Get the girls into c, both of them, and let the experts decide how much they each need.
Stop apologizing to your wife, or worrying about whether she'll file. Nothing you say and no sentence worded just right, will change her mind. You have no control over her or that, BUT the more 12 Step meetings you attend, & the and more often you say The Serenity Prayer, the more peace you will find in accepting this REALITY...

You have to do the work on YOU and for ONCE, leave the results up to Him. THAT'S FAITH... I can't say that anymore plainly.


Listen well at the AA meetings, and don't judge. Everyone has a story to tell, from which YOU can learn. Nothing that you've described is something I haven't heard. Though you took longer than most people to make obvious choices, considering the amount of advice, but hey Kevin, at least you came here looking... That's something.
It's clear to me that your obsessing about her is not a sign of love. It's NOT....really. LISTEN TO US when we tell you to let her go. (No one said give up). We said LET HER GO....[/color]
And move on now. The PAST IS PASSED....
Re-read the post I gave you about Mrs. Edwards over and over, and deal with what IS now, not what once was, or might have been or you thought was...but what IS now and might be for YOUR LIFE, please.... Say the Serenity Prayer, hourly. I mean that. It helped ME and I recommend it as a way of life. For ALL...

j-
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/11/09 08:26 PM
hey your friend with the "whoop ass" stick has emerged from the thicket.

LOL

T
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/11/09 09:02 PM
Kevin,

You need to be persistent and follow through with getting the counseling for your girls.

Do it.

Stacy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/11/09 09:15 PM
What about the school counselor? School starts in a week and a half. Or do they need someone above that level?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/11/09 09:27 PM
D7 and D11 will be going to separate schools this year for the first time since they started. I wonder how that will go. D7 is very dependent on D11.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/11/09 09:35 PM
She'll need your support more than ever. She's not going to have that support any more from a comforting figure. Be the father she needs and deserves.
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/11/09 09:40 PM
Kevin,

I work in the schools and some of the counselors are very good. But why are you putting this off for two more weeks? It's already been months since you were told to handle this.

Be sure to discuss your concerns regarding your D7 -- about her sister being in a different school. Their teachers should also know that you and W are separated -- they can keep an eye on the girls and let you know if they notice any behaviors that cause them concern.

So your 11 year old D is starting middle school? Please keep your eye on her - that can be an extrememly stressful transition.

Will you and W be taking them to open house, or meet the teacher together? If you can talk her into this, it's for the best.

Stacy
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/11/09 11:23 PM
Hey Kevin.

The school c is not enough Kevin. I know its tough. There are more than one children's c out there. Get out the phone book and start calling. Do not just rely on one person to "get back to you." Honestly, even if they are really busy, I'm not sure that I would take my child to someone that took that long to call me back.

I know you are hurting Kev, but you are on upswing - remember? You only have one way to go & that is up.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 01:48 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
What about the school counselor? School starts in a week and a half. Or do they need someone above that level?

Kevin


Hard to believe you asked this. I just said "let the experts, the c's tell you who and what the girls need", and just get it done for them. Especially if your wife IS filing, you need to do this and not just for appearance' sake.

And for the record the school c's are NOT trained to treat your children. Their assessment tools are just that. We, including you, already know that your d's have sent you many signals/red flares of their pain yet still, you have not done anything but make a phone call, or so you claim. No follow up despite the many many promises...

Again, you are trying to take the easy route for YOU. Cheapest, or fastest, the route requiring the least action from you. And then you'll post about how you are "working on it...called and they haven't returned the call...the guy was out....too young....you forgot, were too tired, thought you'd do it later, they seemed better, blah blah blah."

It has been months since you were or should have been aware of how much pain they are in and how much they need professional help, and all you did was make a phone call...Imagine someone telling you your d's have a strange fever and waiting this long to do anything.....and here we are at the end of the summer, the BEST TIME for them to have gotten help for the upcoming changes that are yet to come, (are they going to new schools? YES. Oh and now for the first time they won't be together....sure Kevin, no rush, take your time, see how you feel about it all....) and you ask us about waiting for the school to....DO IT? Say it? FORCE IT??

I won't ever stop posting to you b/c you relapse. How could I? There but for the Grace of God, go I.

But this purposeful neglect of your children, which you CAN control, and the way you still ignore great advice from so many (not all my advice is great or always right, but a lot of what people take the time to post to you is,) and the amnesia you pretend to have, or when you don't even acknowledge getting a post or thinking about what they say, and do the exact thing so many warn you not to do, THAT frustrates me no end. (As does the pathological obsession you have with your wife)

I have not "lurked" here, but I have actively supported and posted to you several times a week, since you registered here many months ago. That's a lot. I began with the gentlest supportive methods available and the most encouragement I could. But that didn't work for long as far as I can tell. The 2 x 4's are not enjoyable to write or read and they don't get far with you either.

Tomato, I don't know what you are trying to say or imply, but I've done my best.

K4, if you won't do anything else, and maybe you won't, at least do right by your daughters. Take them to a c, and then follow that c's advice.

j-

Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 01:57 AM
Great advice as usual 25yearsmlc.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 02:57 AM
25 and everyone else,

I will have a bit more free time tomorrow. I will get it done tomorrow. Should I tell W I am doing it or just do it? I would think she would want to be part of that decision.

I spent a few minutes with her again tonight. Another not so great night. I didn't put the legos together tonight.

Me and D7 had dinner with W tonight at subway. While we were eating dinner, I said football season is starting. W said ya and she is already part of 2 football fanstasy leagues. I just rolled my eyes. That is something we did together. Then W said we need to discuss school supplies and school clothes and how we want to work that out. I said ya, that will be so much fun working all of that out. W then told me about the trips she and the girls will be taking with her new vehicle she is getting.

Then we went to W's house to get some stuff. D7 grabbed W's breast and I went to pull away D7's hand. Well, W thought I was going for her breast and got mad at me. I explained that I was going for D7's hand to remove it after W had told her not to grab it.

Then came OPEN MOUTH, INSERT FOOT. I said so what anyways, you are my W. I said I love you to her as I started walking out. She said get out. I sent back a text saying sorry, this is just frusturating sometimes.

Me and D7 came back and went swimming tonight. Tomorrow D7 is with W again so I will be going to AA again tomorrow night. I did not want to leave D7 in a room there by herself tonight. Once D11 is back, I will be more comfortable leaving them in there together with something to do. This is a pretty decent sized group of AA people.

I also went and talked to my priest tonight. I told him all about Saturday night. He thought it was good that I am going to AA. He also thinks it is good that I am staying on my studying catholic books and that with me and the girls converting that with time it could help W also. He told me W is looking for stability. He said with time she will see that in me if I stay on track. He said she may also be looking for some other additional things on top of stability. He said to pray that God bestows graces on her. He said she still has to be willing to accept them. He also said that I could ask my guardian angel to tell her guardian angel to talk to her. We chatted a little bit about angels. That is actually the next section we are getting into next week.

He said that Padre Pio spoke to angels all the time. I will have to read up on him. I know my dad has mentioned him before.

D7 asked where I was tonight. I said a C appointment. She asked when her and D11 were going to be able to go to C again. I said do you want to. She said yes. I said ok. I will make it happen.

I will just go to AA and put them in C. I can't also go to C, and AA, and my priest and have them in C. Its to much at one time and the cost is going to be a bit much for C for them and me with everything going to the deductible for a while.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 03:08 AM
On the way to the pool D7 asks me why I am sad. I didn't say anything. Then she says she knows why. I just looked at her. She said it is because you miss mommy and you don't want a D. Then she said that mommy told her that we just disagree on everything. I said we don't disagree on everything, just some things. I told her I love her and we got into the pool. We had a good time in there. She played with other kids and then I pulled her around the pool some while she was sitting on a tube.

We had a good time together. These kids read things very well. For that reason alone I have to make sure I show no signs of my feelings around them even if I am quiet.

One lady I know pointed out that I radiate weakness and that it is obvious that I have no confidence when I walk in the room. I didn't realize I radiated that so much. She said I have to change that. She said right now I have nothing to offer until I start building confidence in myself.

Tomorrow is a new day.

Pathological?

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 03:14 AM
Kevin,

What is going on?????

You need to talk to W about school clothes and supplies. And what's w/rolling your eyes about stupid fantasy football? You are so needy, clingy, grasping -- like an infant.

And you think your W can't set a boundary w/D7 who grabs her breast? That's between her and your D -- but WTH?? Is this regular behavior -- I work w/special needs children -- that is NOT normal or appropriate. But your W needs to handle that.

That whole "You're my W, so what". That is disgusting. I don't care if you two are all puppy dogs and rainbows, it's HER breast, HER body -- she gets to decide who touches her, where and when. Kevin, your mind set is so insulting.

STOP telling her you love her -- STOP.

Oh Kevin -- I have to go help take care of my dying BIL, so I'll be gone for awhile.

Try to get it together.

Stop eating out so much -- maybe then you could afford C for you and the girls.

Stacy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 03:51 AM
DW,

I said that out of frusturation. Of course I would not touch her or do anything unless she said it was ok.

The bottom line is I am clearly not ready for a reconciliation at this point. Things haven't changed because I still need to make changes. I wouldn't be ready today if she came back. After the way this week has gone, I see that.

I am listening to codependent no more right now.

I guess I have been going out to eat more lately because I have built up some money and I don't just want to stay home in the apartment. But other than sushi now and then, I eat pretty cheap. But yes, I could cut that out to. I actually don't eat breakfast or lunch anymore. So it is really one meal a day for me and not much cost wise. That helps keep the weight off to. I will admit by the time dinner rolls around, I am ready to eat. But I don't eat a ton. Tonight I had a $5 subway footlong.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 04:30 AM
If you have built up some money and can afford to use it to eat out, then use that "built up money" to get both your girls AND you in counseling.

If you dont like eating at home alone then pack a dinner and go sit in the park and eat. Voluntee at an old folks home and eat with them.

There isnt a reason in the world you cant be in AA, counseling and still consult w/your priest. It wouldnt be too much. Counseling would most probably be weekly at first and as you progress it would be bi-weekly or maybe once a month. Certainly your priest could be flexible and AA meetings are available in most major cities almost around the clock. Yup, its LOTS of work but doable and necessary.

Eating one meal a day is not taking care of yourself yet on the other hand you say you need to get in better physical shape. You are a constant contradiction. Your body and mind need fuel.

Learn to coupon, learn to match the sales flyers up w/your coupons, plant a container garden so you have an assortment of fresh veggies and herbs and stop eating so much crap. It will allow you to be healthier AND save money.

Was rolling your eyes about your kids school clothes and supplies a helpful thing? No. Was rolling your eyes about your W's fantasty football team a nice thing? No. You get so angry and hurt when your W is cold to you, yet you do the same thing to her on a constant basis.

The clothes/school supplies issues could have been an opportunity for the two of you to work together. Do you think she will be keen on making it a "team effort" after the reaction she saw from you?

And really, stop telling your W you love her. Do not touch your W or violate her personal space unless she is being physically attacked and you witness it.

Your kids have basically begged for help and you havent done a thing about it. Now, on top of the divorce, being shifted back and forth weekly AND both of them going to different schools (one being in middle school which is a huge transaction) you are still lagging.

Over the past 19 months I have contacted many counselors and NEVER have I had trouble getting them to call me back. It makes me wonder if you ever really made that call or not.

Aside from the C'ing for you and your kids, AA and your spiritual counseling there are many things you could and should be doing and you just wont. Its not even the GAL stuff either. You dont eat properly, you waste money when all we hear about is how much higher your W's income is than yours and you have an excuse about everything.

Have you made the budget that we spoke about months ago? Had you done that maybe you could see the amount of money you waste and how it could be better spent to better your life and the life of your children.

Eating alone sucks sometimes. I take my dinner and my dog to the park or lake and eat there. Its nice to people watch and its a FREE change of pace.

I am sorry but sometimes you really frustrate me to no end as there is *always* a reason why something cant happen with you. And you always have somthing to say about your W when you do the SAME things to her.

Think about it. I would post budgeting programs for you (free) and sites that help you match up weekly sales flyers and coupons to print (free) but everytime I do post a resource you never follow up.

You remind me of my H - he does the same thing over and over again, apologizes and says he knows he needs to work on it, never works on it and the cycle repeats. And he wonders why I *had* to remove him from my life. It gets old. It gets old like a wrinkly raisin you found under the sofa from a year ago.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 01:34 PM
Originally Posted By: CityGirl
You remind me of my H - he does the same thing over and over again, apologizes and says he knows he needs to work on it, never works on it and the cycle repeats. And he wonders why I *had* to remove him from my life. It gets old. It gets old like a wrinkly raisin you found under the sofa from a year ago.


AMEN! Seriously Kevin. "You're not ready for a reconciliation???" Did I just read that?

You're lucky you can come within 100 feet of her. Keep it up and you won't.

Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 02:31 PM
I just sent W a text saying we need to discuss putting the girls back in C.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 02:48 PM
how was AA last night? do you have a sponser yet?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 03:06 PM
I think I cleared things up with W. We spoke. I explained that I was going for D7's arm and I would not touch her unless given permission. I said I know better than that.

I also told her to go ahead and trade in the van and I would sign over the title to make sure she is taken care of. I also said I would go with her to make sure they don't screw her over on the paper work as she has not done this before. She said thank you and that she would appreciate that.

I also said lets work together on the school supplies and clothes and knock that out this weekend. I said I am on board with her and lets get it done together. She was happy about that to.

We will shop together for the clothes and she will just pick up the supplies separately.

We discussed C for the girls and she agrees they need to go back into it. She is just worried about her finances right now with being so behind on rent and having to get another vehcile. She finally paid through June last night and still has to pay for July and August. I said I understand.

I am moving forward with it anyways.

I think we are at least good now and she knows I was not trying to pull anything. Hopefully from this point on I can build my legos one peice at a time.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 03:08 PM
I'm going to AA again tonight. I did not want to take D7 last night and leave her in a room by herself. But I do not have her tonight. Once D11 is back this weekend, I will take both of them and let them stay in the room together. D7 is just to dependent on D11 or someone else to stay in a room by herself. She won't do it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 03:35 PM
Any advice? Did I do ok in clearing up things with W and making amends for it? Does this allow me some kind of starting to put the legos together again?

Kevin
Posted By: GoBison Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 03:48 PM
The only "Legos" that you need to put together right now are with yourself. Go to AA do the things you need to do. Don't pressure your W with trying to put things back together. Let her come to you on that if it is going to happen.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 03:55 PM
Well yes, but I mean as far as pulling myself out of the immediate fire with her also.

Kevin
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 04:15 PM
Seems you are still obsessing about your W and not really learning anything here. God has given you many great gifts and you just don't seem to know how to accept them or even realize they are there for you. You still are trying to win back your W and the changes you are trying to get her to see are not real so they will not stick and everyone knows it, even your W. Start again to concentrate on YOU and YOUR girls.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 05:54 PM
Personally I think you messed up. Especially this part...

"I also told her to go ahead and trade in the van and I would sign over the title to make sure she is taken care of."

This is something you know you didn't want to do, but because she threw a hissy fit, you caved in.

Do you remember what your friend told you about how you seem weak or insecure, no confidence? Well that's the perfect example right there. Don't cave in when you no it's not right. It's what being a man and an assertive individual is all about.

Just do your own thing. I don't know how many times people have been trying to tell you this.

She knows she can get her way with you. Is that the kind of man she said she wanted?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 05:59 PM
Its going to cost thousands to fix the van. I don't feel like footing the bill. Whatever she can get for it is fine.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 06:12 PM
It shouldnt matter how much it will cost to fix the van as the van is HER problem. She isnt footing the bill(s) for your vehicle therefore there would be no need for you to foot the bills for her car.

Its very easy to get your name removed from the title of a vehicle pending your bank loan is paid in full. Again, some simple research on your part could have made a huge difference.

You could have said "W, I understand the fix you are in with the van and the repairs but I feel its best for me to have my name removed from the title before you take any further action with repairs or the purchase of a new vehicle".

Its these snap decisions that get you in trouble. As I understand it there isnt any sort of "legal separation" in Texas but you can create a temporary agreement. I know this because I have a friend who lives in Texas who is about to go through a very messy divorce. Both my friend and her H had a temporary agreement drawn up so EVERYTHING was clearly spelled out with finances, vehicles, the home and so on. It protects you, your W and your kids until some legal formalities are initiated.

It doesnt really matter what you "feel like" paying for or not. Without some sort of temporary agreement that is signed and legally binding what you "feel like" doing wont mean squat.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 06:17 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Well yes, but I mean as far as pulling myself out of the immediate fire with her also.

Kevin


WHO GIVES A CRAP ABOUT YOUR W NOW??? WORK ON YOU AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR D'S....My God, you are so stubborn & resistant. WTH???

Did you look up the word PATHOLOGICAL? It = "Diseased" b/c your obsession with your wife IS just that. Enough.

Let her go so she can find herself and you can work on you. You obviously are not capable of the work you need to do, with her in your mind and heart all the time. You have no boundaries and you don't respect hers. The whole rolling your eyes and yanking d7's hand AT THIS POINT, is just not progressing. The money issues....did you actually join a health club? As if you can't exercise without that? And yes eating out is a huge cost that most people do not realize b/c they think $5 is not a lot for their meal, but that same $5 would buy a lot of chicken, spend another dollar and get a pound of rice, spend another $2-3 and buy canned vegetables or some fresh carrots or what's on sale, and for under 10$ you can make 2 dinners for ALL 3 of you. (Why do I think those sentences just flew by? Oh I know, b/c they don't relate to your w...)

And find some AA meetings during the day or before work b/c there are a lot of them. You might find a "nooners" meeting near your work.[b] Just get there.


I am praying your d's stay centered, somehow, and that they'll have friends and can find some happiness at this HARD time in their lives b/c middle school sucks for girls! It's hard enough in the best of times. Let alone worrying about their father's sadness and hopelessness...which of course affects them at a deep level.

I have a 12 y/o D and I fear for her in middle school. I really do. And my daughter knows people in her school, and she has friends already. And we, her parents, are together. And still, I worry for her. So when your focus is overwhelmingly on your pain and anger and frustration with your wife, it's clear your d's are not the priority they should be. That's why you haven't gotten them into c yet, BUT you make sure you meet with a priest who makes you feel better....

Why don't you rent the movie "Mean Girls" and talk with your daughters about it. Listen to them and their reactions....the film is about high school but it relates to middle school too, big time and is about girls. LISTEN to their fears and wait for them to talk about it...they will at some point. Please do not reject their feelings b/c feelings are spontaneous reactions we cannot control. Our actions, yes we control our reactions and what we do with our feelings, but feelings themselves are not moral choices. They are just feelings. Let your ds tell you how they feel.

Did you read CG's post? Did you READ IT and think about it?
J-[/b]
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 06:23 PM
Why would you have to foot the bill when she's driving it? Let her worry about it. She didn't care where you were even going to live when she kicked you out of the house.

There's a line between being compassionate and being a tool. You are being the ultimate tool for her. Look at the people who succeeded at DB-ing. They were able to let the WAS see the consequences of their actions. No rescuing. They have no qualms about leaving us in the mud, yet when they find themselves in trouble they turn to us for help. But if they are rescued, they really don't learn anything.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 06:40 PM
I am signing the title over to her. Its up to her what she wants to do with it. My name will be off of it. I'm not rescuing her from the van. I'm not paying a dime towards it. Its all on her. I'm just getting my name off of it.

Quote:
Did you read CG's post? Did you READ IT and think about it?


Yes, I did.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 06:51 PM
Quote:
Why don't you rent the movie "Mean Girls" and talk with your daughters about it. Listen to them and their reactions....the film is about high school but it relates to middle school too, big time and is about girls. LISTEN to their fears and wait for them to talk about it...they will at some point. Please do not reject their feelings b/c feelings are spontaneous reactions we cannot control. Our actions, yes we control our reactions and what we do with our feelings, but feelings themselves are not moral choices. They are just feelings. Let your ds tell you how they feel.


I think they have seen it. But it would be worth renting again and watching it with them so we can talk about it. Another good idea.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 06:53 PM
Quote:
(Why do I think those sentences just flew by? Oh I know, b/c they don't relate to your w...)


They didn't fly by. I generally try and eat at home with them. Its when I am buy myself that I usually go eat somewhere.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 07:00 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Any advice?


Like the evil house said in Amityville, 'GET OUT!'
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 07:04 PM
I was listening to the first CD of my Codependent No More audio book last night and it was interesting. Everything the author described was my W during the years of my drinking. It was talking about a W and alcoholic H. Wow. Now I see some things that I didn't realize. She was codependent during those times. Now I am codependent and she has broken herself of it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 07:05 PM
DW, I am still praying for you and your family while going through this sad ordeal with your BIL.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 07:06 PM
Again - if you dont like eating at home alone then pack a dinner and go somewhere and eat it (park, lake, the nature trail you speak of or find a new place to go).

As I understand it, you have your girls one week on and one week off. If you are eating out just three days a week on your "off weeks" and *only* spending 5.00 per meal that is 15.00 wasted. Add 15.00 per week over the course of a year and you have a nice little chunk of change. Save it for a rainy day, save it for the house you claim you must have, save it for C'ing for your kids, education, a down payment on a car or something more rational than eating out because you are bored.

You want a better future. You worried to the point of no return about not having a house, having to start over at the ripe old age of 34 and having no retirement yet spending 15.00 (+) every other week on eating out could make some small dent in one of those areas.

This is part of your need for instant gratification. Dont like to eat home alone so go out and spend money. You can still go out to eat with your OWN food made at home, purchased on sale and with coupons.

Find a farmers market in your area for fresh produce - I go each Sat. morning and can fill two bags of local and fresh produce for under 10.00. Granted its just me and I dont have 2 kids to feed but the savings is still substantial and you are supporting the local farmers.

Or, like I said, volunteer at a soup kitchen, shelter or old folks home for meal time - you will get a free meal and be helping others and you wont be eating alone or spending money.

I had to go to three stores and spend an hour or so matching coupons and sales flyers but for a grand total of 10.49 I got 4 pkg's of BIC pens, 2 bottles of dishsoap, 2 bottles of handsoap, 4 cans of soup, a pkg. of highlighters, 2 Healthy Choice meals, 2 boxes of panty liners, 2 tubes of toothpaste, a half gallon of fat free milk, 3 rolls of paper towels, 2 boxes of bandaids and a roll of tape. On top of all that I will be getting a 2.49 rebate check in the mail. All stuff I needed and yes, it took a bit of time to match up all the ads/coupons and go from store to store but it was worth it. I am now set on office supplies and other necessities for some time and the money I saved was put aside for my co-pay (25.00) for my next psych appt.

Two years ago I thought nothing of going to Sephora and dropping several hundred bucks. I thought nothing of spending 400.00 on a pair of shoes or a handbag. My life is different now. So I taught myself how to get as much as possible with as little as possible with a bit of time and research. Its actually kind of fun to see how much I can save.

I started a spreadsheet to log my savings and its amazing the amount of money you can save if you try.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 07:23 PM
Wow CG,

You got it down. Ok. I can do that. You are right, I can save quite a bit by making some small changes and still enjoy myself.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 07:34 PM
GEEZ CG,

When first Married, I recall budgeting $25 per week for H and I eating, which we did. Lots of chicken and eggs and rice. We spend a lot more now, b/c we can and appreciate that. But recently our d20 was learning about living below the poverty level in America. So as a family, we chose to eat at the level a family of 4 would eat in, and added a % b/c we had our son at home then too which threw the numbers off a little as a family of 5 (due to son's appetite, I should have doubled that, but anyhow smile ..)

We managed and learned a lot about wasteful spending. Coupons!! Hello!! Name brands on some items are just crazy. I once went to the drug store with a friend who wanted tylenol and I told her to get the generic and she said "The generic doesn't work with me" and I showed her the exact same ingredients were in both but she insisted on it, irrationally (I know SOME generics are different but this one was the same) and I had to laugh and let it go. Talk about wanting to be right...

But Well said CG, and very instructive. K4, take notes!
thanks,
j
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 07:39 PM
I'm actually a walmart shopper and buy mostly generic great value stuff. I save a ton of money there. That was one thing my W always hated it I would try and buy generic instead of brand name stuff. She didn't like the difference in taste. But now I really have to, so I do.

Kevin
Posted By: Coach Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 07:42 PM


Quote:
But Well said CG, and very instructive. K4, take notes!

Quote:
I had to go to three stores and spend an hour or so matching coupons and sales flyers but for a grand total of 10.49 I got 4 pkg's of BIC pens, 2 bottles of dishsoap, 2 bottles of handsoap, 4 cans of soup, a pkg. of highlighters, 2 Healthy Choice meals, 2 boxes of panty liners, 2 tubes of toothpaste, a half gallon of fat free milk, 3 rolls of paper towels, 2 boxes of bandaids and a roll of tape. On top of all that I will be getting a 2.49 rebate check in the mail. All stuff I needed and yes, it took a bit of time to match up all the ads/coupons and go from store to store but it was worth it. I am now set on office supplies and other necessities for some time and the money I saved was put aside for my co-pay (25.00) for my next psych appt.



Kev don't buy everything on the list! grin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 07:47 PM
Wow Coach,

I don't think you have ever posted to me before. I know I have read many of your posts on other threads.

Don't worry. I won't be buying panty liners. lol.

Although if I did, it could get my W's suspicions up. hmm. kidding.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 07:51 PM
Sorry for the "too much info" on my list. I was just proving a point with some time, effort and research the savings can be amazing. And FWIW, not one thing I purchased was generic. And I didnt use a cent in gas because I live in walking distance of all three stores. So, I saved money, saved gas, used my canvas totes to "be green" and got a good workout walking from store to store. Not bad for old CityGirl!

Actually though, perhaps panty liners would come in handy for your daughters to leave at your house (to avoid them having to ask you) or for their gym bag or locker at school.

If you live near a Super Target you can get a free pound of apples by using the Target coupon from the Target coupon generator. Through Sat. the coupon is valid.
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 07:52 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I'm actually a walmart shopper and buy mostly generic great value stuff. I save a ton of money there. That was one thing my W always hated it I would try and buy generic instead of brand name stuff. She didn't like the difference in taste. But now I really have to, so I do.

Kevin


This would have been a much better post...hint hint
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 07:56 PM
Quote:
If you live near a Super Target you can get a free pound of apples by using the Target coupon from the Target coupon generator. Through Sat. the coupon is valid.


Unfortunately, everytime I buy apples, nobody eats them. So they just get thrown away with time. But I can definitely see what else they have coupons for.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 07:57 PM
Quote:
This would have been a much better post...hint hint


Agreed.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 08:32 PM
Something I was thinking about last night. My W looks pregnant lately, but I know that is impossible because she had her tubes tied. Maybe it is just the dresses she has been wearing.

Alright, enough about W.

Back to work.

Kevin
Posted By: mindfull Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 08:35 PM
r u kidding me?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 08:43 PM
It was just an observation I made. But I know it can't be. Just looked odd. Just made me think for a few last night.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 08:53 PM
Of course I did see a bunch of beers on the counter yesterday. It could be that she is just getting a bit of a beer belly now. Thats probably what it is. I need to just not think about it.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 08:57 PM
Sigh. The more things "change" the more they stay the same.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 08:58 PM
A friend of mine said I need to sign up and do this. He said I would benefit greatly from it. And it is really cheap compared to other programs. He said it would really give me direction in my life.

http://www.theroadadventure.org/

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 09:33 PM
I can get the Blue Like Jazz audio CD at Barnes and Noble.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 09:54 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I can get the Blue Like Jazz audio CD at Barnes and Noble.

Kevin


you always could have gotten the book in some form; only you required it to be audio, which costs much more. (I do use audio books when I work out or jog, and didn't need to join a health club for that). Or you could've borrowed the book...so the question is, will YOU READ IT AND PAY ATTENTION TO IT??? Trust me, it'll make you uncomfortable if you really read it. So you might just resist all that is new to you...Don't know. It will require new ways of thinking on your part. Maybe even doing stuff differently...Might be too hard....maybe you can "put it off 'til later" then. I'll assume my point has been made on that.

Anyway, What I can't understand, SERIOUSLY AND SINCERELY is this: K4 don't you understand what it means when people tell you to stop obsessing about your wife? Do you know the meaning of the word "pathological" obsession, NOW? Do you have any idea what I mean when I say that, or what others mean when they tell you to STOP talking about her?

I am confused. What is it that you don't get about this? Why can't you stop it?


I'm totally serious about this question.
j-

Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 10:03 PM
Quote:
I am confused. What is it that you don't get about this? Why can't you stop it?


I don't know. I can't stop thinking about her. Even when I don't mention her, I can't stop thinking about her. I guess I worry so much that she will never come back and I don't like the thought of that. I don't want to go the rest of my life without her. So it is always on my mind. It wasn't before any of this started. I was able to think about other things all the time. But since this started, I have not been able to quit thinking about her. So I try and be positive and tell myself she will come back. And I pray for restoration and changes within me. A prayer that Wifey gave me is to ask God to change me in a way that is pleasing to Him and a way that is pleasing to my W. So I have been saying that each day.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 10:06 PM
Hmmm didn't you have this conversation 11 months ago?

There's a word for what you need to do...DETACH.

Don't even pray for her or mention her in your prayers. Pray for you and your daughters. Pray for their healing.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 10:19 PM
I guess it just sucks not having anyone to go home to. I don't even have my dog. She is having a good life over at the house with her big back yard. I can't take her away from that and put her in an apartment.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 10:25 PM
It's like watching Will Ferrel doing his impression of Harry Carey. Hey you ever wonder if the moon is made out of??? Hey I wonder if X is pregnant??? Hey how many licks does it take to get to the center of a??? Seriously Kev. I think you should start w some meds for ADD. FOCUS on FIXING KEVIN and getting C for the girls. Everything else is blah....
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 11:10 PM
Kevin -

You need help. I mean it. You are out of control and you are unable to even manage your own thoughts.

Please think about this and answer me. What if you found a man was obsessing about one of your daughters the way you obsess about your W? This man had every thought, action and motivation to somehow be with one of your daughters despite the fact the daughter in question has made it perfectly clear she wants NOTHING to do with this man. Yet, this man keep doing the same thing. Wouldnt that frighten you? Wouldnt you want that to stop and stop at once? Wouldnt you go to any measure to make sure it did stop?

You may not physically stalk your W but you mentally stalk her in IMO that is far more damaging and dangerous to ALL parties involved (you, your W and your children).

You have mentioned AA again but have provided us with not a single update about the C'ing you claim you were going to work on this week.

I am going to say it. You have no desire to change because its too hard and you are too weak and afraid and a hard work ethic doesnt seem to be part of your nature. Because I think deep down you know if you if you do change and change FOR YOU and YOUR future the possiblity of your W coming back to you are still slim to none. So, in your mind... why bother?

Its maddening. I swear each time I read one of your posts about your W and the crap you wonder about I vow to not post to you anymore. You get more attention than ANYBODY on these boards even though its all negative attention. And frankly, I think you kind of secretly dig it. That way, at least *somebody* is paying attention to you and IMO that is what you crave and need to feel whole.

I am sorry to be so blunt but somebody has to say it. We have all danced around the issue hoping you would have some sort of moment of clarity but thus far, the clouds are way too thick.

There. I said it.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/12/09 11:16 PM
Are you still taking those anti-depressents?
Posted By: kara Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 12:38 AM
Kevin

Biting my tongue but what the hey? Here goes...

Let us say that for arguments sake it is theoretically possible for you to get your W back. Do you for one moment think that you can do that by continuing with ALL the behaviors she has so clearly shown contempt for? You will NEVER change this sitch until you CHANGE YOU.

CHANGE YOU, Kevin. It is damned hard but not impossible. AA and counselling for your girls will help. The book that you COULD get will help. Detaching will help. Many things will help.But only if you try and keep at them.

It is not as if it is easy for the rest of us and that you alone have the heaviest burden to bear. We have all felt that depth of despair from which we thought we could not escape. We have all tried not to cry because it seemed that if we started we might never stop. We have all asked "Why me?" as if we are all so special and that this should happen to other "non-special" people.

We have all been through it but we all worked to change ourselves. That is how we get to where we are and can laugh, sing, smile and dance again. Where the tears become few and far between. You will always stay at this point unless you do WORK and there are countless people here who are willing to help. You are lucky and do not realise it.

I don't want to be too harsh because I know you do have genuine problems which require medication and professional help. But many people on this board fight depression, lupus, major medical issues, among other things. And still we strive. That is life, Kevin. Life is not fair. God is fair. And there is always someone who has it worse than you.

There is a saying I like to keep in mind:

"If you trust God , why worry. If you worry, why trust God?"

Kev, if you trust God and do the work there is no way you and your kids will lose even if you do not reconcile with W. Your W is not the prize. A healthy Kevin and two happy kids is the prize you need to keep your eyes fixed on. Any thing else is a bonus.

Being positive is not telling yourself that she will come back. Being positive is living your best life even if she doesn't come back.

O.K. Finished.
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 01:09 AM
A person often does not change until the pain is so intense and he/she hits rock bottom.

Someone I know who is in AA once said to me, "with one more person's 'help' I'd be dead."

Maybe it is time to stop "helping" and let Kevin hit bottom and feel intrinsically motivated to change instead of buffering here.

Ha, best thing that happened to me on this site was 25 bailing on my thread (with much respect to 25)...I went "What the f*ck is wrong with me? She'll keep posting to Kevin but has given up on me?" Seriously, 25, you're brilliant and right and so many great things but do you see this as "working"?

For what it is worth Kevin, I think you can do this. I also think you use this site as a crutch and you need to be absolutely lonely and in your despair to stand a chance of changing. I know you want it. I wish you the best. It is up to YOU!
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 02:40 AM
Originally Posted By: CityGirl
Kevin -

You need help. I mean it. You are out of control and you are unable to even manage your own thoughts.

Please think about this and answer me. What if you found a man was obsessing about one of your daughters the way you obsess about your W? This man had every thought, action and motivation to somehow be with one of your daughters despite the fact the daughter in question has made it perfectly clear she wants NOTHING to do with this man. Yet, this man keep doing the same thing. Wouldnt that frighten you? Wouldnt you want that to stop and stop at once? Wouldnt you go to any measure to make sure it did stop?

You may not physically stalk your W but you mentally stalk her in IMO that is far more damaging and dangerous to ALL parties involved (you, your W and your children).

You have mentioned AA again but have provided us with not a single update about the C'ing you claim you were going to work on this week.

I am going to say it. You have no desire to change because its too hard and you are too weak and afraid and a hard work ethic doesnt seem to be part of your nature. Because I think deep down you know if you if you do change and change FOR YOU and YOUR future the possiblity of your W coming back to you are still slim to none. So, in your mind... why bother?

Its maddening. I swear each time I read one of your posts about your W and the crap you wonder about I vow to not post to you anymore. You get more attention than ANYBODY on these boards even though its all negative attention. And frankly, I think you kind of secretly dig it. That way, at least *somebody* is paying attention to you and IMO that is what you crave and need to feel whole.

I am sorry to be so blunt but somebody has to say it. We have all danced around the issue hoping you would have some sort of moment of clarity but thus far, the clouds are way too thick.

There. I said it.


Everything CG said...and MORE...Christ, this is insane. And I feel like I am insane too for posting here. WTH is wrong with you that you "can't stop thinking about her" even NOW? BS!! It's worse than I was IN HIGH SCHOOL and I was only that way for the summer, AND if I were an adult with 2 kids acting and feeling like you do, I would KNOW I NEED HELP and I WOULD GET THAT HELP unless I was too nuts and used to being nuts to want to change...stop farting around about it. If your pain is so deep, why not FIX IT? I know one thing for sure....I would do whatever it took to not feel or act like you seem to be.

God help you, b/c you sure won't help yourself.
j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 03:40 AM
Wow,

I got back from my AA meeting and was going to talk about what a great meeting it was and I read all of this. I am still on my medication.

Anyways, the speaker at our meeting was covering step 3. He was really funny, but at the same time said stuff that hit home. He has been sober since 1971. He said things like if you think of yourself as having a crappy life, then it is going to be a crappy life. If you think of yourself as having a good life, you will have a good live and project that good life. I made me think, what is so bad about my life? Why am I so miserable that I can't enjoy anything. Is my life that bad? Why do I let what my W thinks and does control me and my happiness? All it has done is make me miserable. It made me get up off my butt and start smiling and thinking my life isn't so bad.

I went shopping after and just started smiling and I got in line and the cashier noticed me just smiling and she had been quiet until I got there but then she started smiling back at me and talking to me. She was cute to. But that is beside the point. I just stood there smiling and looking confident and she was chatty with me. To funny. As I walked out I thought, I can project a good life for myself. I can work on improving my future. So why haven't I? Its time to start. I can get other people to like me and talk to me and want to be around me simply by changing my outlook on life. It was an interesting experiment.

So I came home and kept positive and happy while I put away my groceries and then realized I lost my loaf of bread somewhere. Oh well, no biggie. I will get more.

Then I realized I forgot to get some frozen pizza's. I always feel like I am forgetting something when I leave the store and sure enough I do. And I never realize it until I get home. Such is life. I do have hotdog buns though. I can make sandwiches out of that until I go back to the store.

Anyways, back to me. I am definitely going to keep going to the AA meetings as I think they are good for me. The people were friendly there again. I don't really have an official sponsor, but I have 2 people that told me to call them if I feel like taking a drink until I get a permanent sponsor.

I am going to try and get into work early tomorrow and stop focusing on W. I can make something out of this job and more if I remove her from my mind. I have always said if you can't make it in DFW you can't make it anywhere. And I believe that. So its time to start making something here.

I agree. Change has to come from me. People see me how I project myself. I see that. It is time to start smiling and remembering I do have value regardless of what W thinks. When I smile at people they smile back and are more geared to talking and being friendly. It makes life more enjoyable. Plus it is hard to feel negative if you are smiling all the time. I gotta keep positive thoughts of the opportunities out there and not dwell on what I don't have. It is all a mindset. I just have to train my mind each day that it is going to be a good day and opportunities for whatever are out there. If I don't see me as positive, of course my W and anyone else isn't going to see me as positive and want to have anything to do with me.

The meeting tonight was good. I am getting a lot out of this. And you do have to work it for it to work. I never believed it mattered before. But I am starting to believe it does matter and can work if you put the effort into it.

I wanted to go to TGIF on the way home for happy hour. But instead I went to AA and feel so much better for doing it. I would have missed a great meeting had I not gone and I wouldn't have gotten anywhere at TGIF other than stupid misery.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 03:47 AM
Quote:
Please think about this and answer me. What if you found a man was obsessing about one of your daughters the way you obsess about your W? This man had every thought, action and motivation to somehow be with one of your daughters despite the fact the daughter in question has made it perfectly clear she wants NOTHING to do with this man. Yet, this man keep doing the same thing. Wouldnt that frighten you? Wouldnt you want that to stop and stop at once? Wouldnt you go to any measure to make sure it did stop?


CG, if my daughter was married to him and there was no physical danger, I would suggest he find a way to work on his issues. If my daughter did not want to be around him for a period of time I would be fine with separation but with the understanding that marriage is for life and if you separate it should be for each of them to work on themselves to better the marriage down the road.

There is a big difference between that and say her wanting a D and sleeping around and trying to remarry someone else. I would be extremely disapointed in her if she pulled that. You don't walk out on a M and be with someone else just because things got tough. You always find a way to work out whatever needs to be worked out or worked on. I will expect that from my daughters.

I don't support D for myself and I won't for my daughters either. Separation for a period of time til things are fixed yes. D, no.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 03:55 AM
Kevin - I was not talking about your D's and being married or separated. I am talking about a man mentally stalking your D as you do your W at ANY age. If she told you it made her uncomfortable, stifled, sick and frightened would you still say "well, stay separated but work it out?". No! Your d's comfort would be your FIRST priority (or it should be).

Your D's will be teenagers soon and this case scenario is likely. Would you tell a teenage boy to "work on his issues". No. Hopefully you would tell him in a firm fashion to get lost and leave your D alone. That is what your W is telling you now. Walk in her shoes (her = your W) for an hour, day, week and really think about it.

It goes way beyond "working on issues".

I was trying to illustrate a point which clearly you missed.
Posted By: GoBison Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 03:57 AM
Honestly Kevin I don't agree with D either but if I had a daughter and you were acting around her the way you come across on the board I would encourage her to get as far away as possible. You really need to get control of your self and your daughters need help to get through this cause as far as I can see they are not getting it at home.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 04:17 AM
If not married, that is a whole other story. He would need to leave if they are not married.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 01:50 PM
I think one of the differences is that a lot of you think in the end if it doesn't work out, there is someone else out there for you. I don't subscribe to that phylosophy as I believe one marriage one time til death due you part. So because of that, I feel like if things don't work with my W, thats it. I had my shot and lost and I hate to think like that. I don't want that to be my future.

For what it is worth,

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 03:01 PM
So I think about her a lot. I don't see how that is me mentally stocking her. I miss her. I love her. I want things to be repaired between us. And I worry that she will never come back. I worry about being without her the rest of my life. I lack faith sometimes. But I am not mentally stocking her.

Kevin
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 03:08 PM
Quote:
And I worry that she will never come back. I worry about being without her the rest of my life.


She is not coming back. It's over.

Find someone else to love. You will suddenly be healed.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 04:01 PM
Rather than thinking about what you LACK, think about what you have. You radiate "lacking" and sense of regret and loss, and that begets more lacking. Instead of radiating gratitude or any joy for the life you DO have, which presently does NOT include your wife, you radiate what you think you need.

A new definition of insanity I read the other day applies. "Insanity is you thinking you need what you don't have". Meaning, You don't have your wife and YET your heart still beats and your eyes still see and the world did not stop. The earth still turns, and life does go on. If you want to remain in a "committed relationship alone", fine. She may remarry and you have NO control over that. Clinging to the thought that she will return if only you pray and believe, has done nothing to bring her closer to you.

Regardless,it is HIGH TIME for you to focus on what you do have and make the best of it NOW and look around....Start focusing on what you DO HAVE in your life. Such as a job, two healthy kids (who have not been your true priority). But you have to step up now and "make what you've got, hot" to you. Find the joy and love you can have in your life with or without your wife or another woman if that's how you choose. It does seem like falling on a sword to me, b/c frankly, I think the thought of dating just terrifies and tires you....) Who knows? Like I said, if you want to be single and celibate the rest of your life that is your choice. There is still joy all around and possible for you.

You live in a good area for business and you are healthy. That puts you in the top 5% of the world's population. Want to be crazy and miserable? Keep thinking about how you "need" what you don't have....and focus all the time on it, b/c you "just can't stop".... tired

j-
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 04:11 PM
in one ear out the other......
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 04:18 PM
Kevin. Why do you think everyone on here is encouraging you to go to AA??? Why because you are an ADDICT!!!! You are ADDICTED to ALCOHOL. Not only are you ADDICTED to ALCOHOL YOU are ADDICTED TO YOUR WIFE. You have an ADDICTIVE PERSONALITY AND MINDSET. WHICH IS DESTROYING YOUR LIFE. Stop being an ADDICT!!! Hence ==== AA - 12 Steps. Learning to ACCEPT what you do have. Just like 25, CG and countless others have been saying.

This is NOT rocket science. You are an ADDICT. If not Alcohol your W. If not your W and Alcohol. Religion... Fix Kevin being an ADDICT ===== Kevin's LIFE CHANGES.... ===== Kevin is NO LONGER CODEPENDENT ON ANYONE OR ANYTHING ====== KEVINS GIRLS ARE NOT SCREWED UP AND BECOME CO-DEPENDENT OR ADDICTS.....

THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT FIXING KEVIN. THIS IS ABOUT FIXING KEVINS LIFE AND EVERYONE THAT HAS BEEN EFFECTED BY IT.

DIG DEEP KEVIN!!! THIS IS THE FINAL ROUND!!!! Picture Apollo Creed yelling to you like he did Rocky in Rocky3. "There is NO TOMORROW!!! There is NO TOMORROW!!! CARPE DIEM!!!! LIVE IN THE PRESENT!!! STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND GO STRAIGHT TO THE NEAREST AA MEETING!!! AND DONT STOP GOING UNTIL YOU REALIZE YOU NEED TO BE THERE. YOU DONT HAVE A CHOICE. YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT!!! YOUR DAUGHTERS LIVES DEPEND ON IT. YOUR FUTURE DEPENDS ON IT!!!

Enough said. NO MORE EXCUSES!!! JUST DO IT!!!! NO SURRENDER!!!

YOU CAN DO IT!!!!!

PMA
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 04:51 PM
I am going to AA. I went again last night. I can't just leave work and go.

25, you being catholic know D is not an option in the church.

Prayers do work. You just have to be patient and do the work on yourself while you continue to pray.

Maybe I do have an addictive personality. I don't want to be alone for the rest of my life. If finding someone else were an option in the church, I would probably do it. But it is not. And I do love my W. So I do pray for our restoration.

I am going to have some opportunities to put my best foot forward again coming up. I am going clothes shopping with her. And she wants me and the kids to come over for breakfast the first day of school so we can take them together. There are 2 opportunities right there to put a good foot forward. Not all hope is lost. It is just the current circumstances are bad. It can be turned around with time and work and prayer. Perhaps a long time. But nothing is hopeless through God. I refuse to believe that. For some people it takes years for God to work on them. There has been a lot of damage done that will not be healed anytime soon. But things can change in the future. It just may be a long road to that future.

Nothing is impossible. It is just bleak right now.

Kevin
Posted By: Coach Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 04:55 PM
Quote:
25, you being catholic know D is not an option in the church.


That's not true. Talk to your priest.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 05:03 PM
What if God is telling you NOT to be with your W. Are you going to disobey God?

How do you know what God wants you to do? Until you stop telling God what you NEED and start LISTENING to what you're being told you cant move forward.

Stop talking and start listening.

PMA
Posted By: Dia Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 05:05 PM
FYI - Annullments are possible even for marriages as long as yours. I believe the criteria has something to do with one of the parties not being mentally/emotionally able to enter into the marriage relationship. My aunt had her marriage with my uncle annulled after nearly a decade.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 05:08 PM
Why would God tell you to do something he forbids in the bible? That doesn't make sense. At most he tells you to separate and pray and fast and then come back together again.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 05:09 PM
Dia, our M was valid. It can only be annulled if it was invalid from the start. There was nothing invalid about ours at the start that I can see. Sure, some people and priests abuse it and they will be left standing to answer for it. But an annulment should truly be a rare case.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 05:12 PM
We could debate this all day. God teaches about "free will". Your W does not want to be with you. Unless you can prove to the church that she is possessed by the Devil and is not in control of her will/soul then you can not force someone to Love you let alone be married to you.

Like the saying goes " sometimes if you Love someone or something enough you have to let them go..."

How much do you love your W Kevin??? Enough to make her happy??? Enough to give up CONTROL??? This doesn't mean forever... But it could....

Posted By: gucci loafer Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 05:17 PM
It's over Kevin.

She isn't coming back.

It's over.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 05:23 PM

My brother's 2nd marriage was in the Catholic Church with a full mass, and it was also her 2nd marriage and they both brought 3 d's into the m for a total of 6 kids...in a Catholic Church without either of them getting an annulment. (I believe the first marriages did not take place in Catholic churches, but I could be wrong.)

But even if you were totally correct, if my h deserted me for good and remarried and THEN God sent a kind loving man into my life, I might very well not choose to be alone the rest of my life. I might very well be flexible rather than trying to prove something to others or become holier than thou and turn away from a gift from heaven. Maybe I would marry and maybe not. I can't say.

But I sense a "I'll fall on my sword" attitude from you b/c you honestly find that the path of least resistance. I don't believe for a minute that you are capable of waiting for her patiently, for weeks or months, let alone the years it would take for you and your wife to really get it. You haven't been able to back off enough yet... Maybe her heart will soften but without something like Retrovaille, I can't see it.

So again I say, focus on what you have. B/C when you focus on what you don't have but think you need.... it really is crazy. Reflect on that b/c it comes from a mind greater than mine for sure. It's profound and with effort you can be too. Try to think about it.

Sometimes I think you are very UNGRATEFUL to God.
God could give you a million bucks and bless your d's with complete health AND HAPPINESS, send you great advice from 188 people.... but if your w isn't coming home soon, you'd still be miserable, correct? That says a lot.

As for AA, you have to DO the program, not just attend meetings. Going to them is a start, and I congratulate you on that. But As they say "work the program b/c the program works"...

j-
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 05:37 PM
Kevin, you are ruining your life so that you can go on to blame God for it. It is perverse and distressing to anyone reading here. If that is the "God of your choice," one who is merciless and would prefer to see you and your children suffer and have you suppress your talents and your propensity for true joy then there is truly nothing anyone can say here.

I relate very much, Kevin, to your notion that there is only one acceptable outcome in your situation. But, you know where that was leading me? To near suicide because one in a constant state of discontent and anxiety when you choose a "do or die" mentality regarding something that is completely beyond one's control. And I am not religious at all, so I get that this is an even tougher challenge for you. But, I was digging my heels in so hard. When I saw myself five years from now having operated from that place, I saw myself dead and my kids on crack. I'm not kidding. You are choosing to see your life as worthless without your W and since she is gone and most likely for good, think of what you have coming to you in the next few years if you don't adjust your mindset. It is not pretty and your kids are going to be so damaged.

If your way is so in sync with the Lord and his plan for it, then why aren't you posting here about how gratifying it is for you to follow him? Why don't you recognize every disappointment as your loving God's method of challenging you so you can be an even better man, heck, you could be the perfect man, Jesus incarnate if you believe enough...either stick to your dogma and exemplify to us all how fulfilling and profound this path is or recognize that you are using God as a tool to escape really growing as a person and progressing. The latter is worse than divorce (if you're religious and I'm not). To do things that are destructive and nonsensical and then blame them on your allegiance to God is abhorrent and probably offensive to religious folks. You know, there are so many ways you are violating the tenets of your religion, you just choose divorce as the one that is off limits.

I don't think a single person should post regarding Kevin's wife or answer him when he does. Until he shifts the paradigm in his own mind, this is a depressing exercise in futility. And, I assert once more, that it may not be until he is drunk on some street corner having lost his kids that he "gets it." We are powerless.
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 05:41 PM
Oh, and by the way, look at how significant Kevin is here and how much attention Kevin gets for being a real nut. Most of us with kids know that some people thrive on ANY attention, even if it is negative.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 05:42 PM
Journaling:

Delayed gratification. That is something I so have to work on.

Letting go and letting God. Again something I still have to so work on.

Patience. I have to learn to do this.

Rely on myself only. I'm getting better at this while it is still a work in progress.

WORK WORK WORK on myself. Can't be emphasized enough.

DETACH DETACH DETACH, but still pray & love unconditionally.

Work the program.

My Lord, please grant me strength, patience and wisdom.

Kevin
Posted By: harpo Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 05:43 PM
Can you smell that....it's coffee.......Wake up man.!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 06:03 PM
I admit. I am an alcoholic who is trying to stay sober. I admitted that at AA.

It seems as though I have an addictive personality. Seems hard to argue with that. I have defeated a lot of addictions in my past. Smoking and drugs as a teen, looking at innapropriate content on TV and internet in my earlier years. I defeated that. Alcohol, I am working on defeating that.

My W? I do love her and I am trying to follow the bible on not giving up on my S. You can say I pick and choose what I want. Nobody is perfect. But I am choosing to not go the wrong route on this as far as our covenant M. It is a covenant M. It is not some silly little dribble from attorneys and judges on paper that determine whether or not you are M in the eyes of God. An earthly D has nothing to do with what God joined together and said let NO MAN separate it. Therefore, why would I respect a judge granting an earthly D and an earthly remarriage when the bible clearly says that is adultery. The judge is out of his or her mind to think they have authority over what God put in place.

Now I have to respect the laws and follow them and I do. I am very much a law abiding citizen. But it doesn't mean I have to have respect for the earthly decision that some judge thinks over rules what God put in place. Liberal judges have just decimated the foundation of M in this country. Its a real shame.

None the less, if I have to stand alone, I have to stand alone. But at least I know I am keeping my covenant which nobody can break regardless of what sins are committed.

It is not falling on the sword. It is trying to do what God has commanded us to do. It is hard. It would be far easier to say to heck with it all and start dating again. I almost did. Infact at one point, I did go on a date earlier on because I felt like what is the point of standing. But then it was emphasized to me again that I am standing for my covenant M that God put in place and I am standing in the gap while my prodigal S is out doing the prodigal worldly thing. How in the world is that easy to do? It is the hardest thing to do that their is.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 06:08 PM
Quote:
It is not some silly little dribble from attorneys and judges on paper that determine whether or not you are M in the eyes of God. An earthly D has nothing to do with what God joined together and said let NO MAN separate it.


BTW, I borrowed some of these terms from Tomato's thread.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 06:12 PM
How long did you and your W pray together about whether it was God's will for you to M?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 06:12 PM
25,

Since I know you are an attorney, none of that was directed towards you. It was a generalization of the earthly process trying to take precedence over what the bible says on M by many people out there who create laws that don't respect the institution of M that God set up.

I happen to know from all I have heard from you that you are an excellent attorney with morals and values and a wonderful human being in all that you do.

So please don't think I was talking about you when I made my comments that I did. It had nothing to do with you.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 06:14 PM
Quote:
How long did you and your W pray together about whether it was God's will for you to M?


She refused to pray with me for whether or not this was God's will for our M. She instead prayed that God would give her OM and take him away from his family. She said she knew it was wrong, but God already knew what she wanted so that was what she was going to pray for.

However, she said she did pray earlier on for his will, but still would not pray with me.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 06:17 PM
So you don't know if you're even married in God's eyes, right...The only thing you KNOW have is an earthly piece of paper, right?
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 06:21 PM
Quote:
what God joined together and said let NO MAN separate it.


Maybe just maybe it's not man that is trying to separate it, it's God...
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 06:24 PM
Quote:
So you don't know if you're even married in God's eyes, right...The only thing you KNOW have is an earthly piece of paper, right?


I do know that we were married in God's eyes. It was a valid M with witnesses in a church.

There is a M covenant that is made with God and then there is a peice of paper from whatever state you are in that says it is legal according to their state. Whether or not a state says it is legal has no authority over what the church and God say. A state can create a legal D and a legal remarriage. It is nothing more than a legal piece of paper and legalized adultery. It has no bearing over the authority of God and if you look at the bible, it is in total contradiction with what the bible says. God says to honor the laws EXCEPT when it conflicts with his. Therefore, I don't honor a decision such as that made by an earthly judge, but I will not break any laws either. It is just something I have to live by while I pray for restoration that only God can heal.

Kevin
Posted By: Serenity13 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 06:25 PM
I don't think I have posted to you before on your post Kevin, I know I have seen you on mine though...

I haven't read your whole post from start to finish I have however read the last few days and while some of the advice is harsh it is correct...

From what I have seen, you are a recovering addict (me to), you are obsessed with your W coming home (I was as well), you put her above everyone including God and your kids (guilty) and you don't take advice very well (same here)...

Guess where that will get you - No where...

About 6 weeks ago I sat in my Pastors office crying like I have never cried before...

I couldn't even catch my breath - Want to know why? I had decided the night before I was done with this life..

If I couldn't have my husband I had nothing and I was ready to end it, instead I found myself in my Church on my knees with my Pastor...

I couldn't even pray at that moment in time...

He prayed for me and stayed on his knees with me until I was done...

He called me into his office afterwards and we talked for quite awhile...

No need to go into the conversation however I see you going down this same path real quick...

At that point I didn't even think about what would happen to my boys - My main focus was my H returning home and if I couldn't have that then I wanted nothing to do with anything/anyone...

WTH kind of Mother was I at that time?

I refocused the next day...

I won't say I don't slip and horrible days because I do - we all do but you have to push towards God and stop pulling the baggage with you...

Go to Church and leave it at the foot of the cross...

Easier said then done because I am very guilty of picking it right back up, but it takes time and you have plenty of that...

Then look towards taking care of you and your kids...Let your W walk this journey on her own.

But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
(Isaiah 40:31)

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
(Romans 8:24,25)
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 06:28 PM
Quote:
Maybe just maybe it's not man that is trying to separate it, it's God...


God created M. Jesus reinforced it. God wouldn't tear apart a M. Satan would and does every day. People choose who they want to listen to. The bible is there to see what God says. The new testament brought back the law of M being one flesh. God said he hates D. Paul said that not him, but the Lord says if a W divorces her H she is to remain single or be reconciled to him. He didn't give an exception. Even in the case of abandonment by the unbeliever which I am not and have not abandoned her, it still does not say you can remarry if that happens. It only says you are not bound to that person who abandoned you as far as your duties go.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 06:35 PM
Serenity13,

I feel like that more often than not. It is hard switching mental gears to a new way of thinking. I am trying. If I wasn't I wouldn't now be going to AA and listening to Codependent No More and reading what people are saying.

I just also still pray for my M. But changing my thought process is taking more work than I thought it would. But I still have to do it anyways to be healthy for me, the kids, W, and everyone else.

I will admit, it is scary being out there in the world alone and it is lonely at times. So I pray and I am getting involved with things.

Good post BTW.

Kevin
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 06:35 PM
Can you answer to this Kevin?

Quote:
If your way is so in sync with the Lord and his plan for it, then why aren't you posting here about how gratifying it is for you to follow him? Why don't you recognize every disappointment as your loving God's method of challenging you so you can be an even better man, heck, you could be the perfect man, Jesus incarnate if you believe enough...either stick to your dogma and exemplify to us all how fulfilling and profound this path is or recognize that you are using God as a tool to escape really growing as a person and progressing. The latter is worse than divorce (if you're religious and I'm not). To do things that are destructive and nonsensical and then blame them on your allegiance to God is abhorrent and probably offensive to religious folks. You know, there are so many ways you are violating the tenets of your religion, you just choose divorce as the one that is off limits.
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 06:39 PM
Originally Posted By: gucci loafer
It's over Kevin.

She isn't coming back.

It's over.


gee ..can we have one more optimist come out of the shadows please. nice comment ..who are you again sir??? are you somebody I bow to??
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 06:42 PM
Sure and Jesus said in Matthew 19:9 "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." THIS IS YOUR SITUATION...

I am glad you believe what you believe I really am. I just think you are a little close minded and think that God wants to fix this M. God wants you to praise Him and all he's given you...You should be thanking him for putting you through this, if he hadn't you probably still be drinking heavily.

Do you think if you did date or remarry God would love you less? Do you think it's any worse than all the sins you commit everyday? I understand what your saying it's just coming across as VERY unhealthy.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 06:46 PM
A&K,

I do recognize that God is challenging me and testing me right now. And I realize I fall way to often. I do realize that he has given me many great gifts and I try to remember to thank him for those gifts each day.

I'm just saying that in a world that has decieved themselves into legalizing adultery and pretending that it is M, I have no defense other than what the bible and church say on the covenant and sanctity of M and I stand by it.

Here is something I read from rejoice ministries today.

"How Do I Know God's Will For My Marriage?"
"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—-his good, pleasing and perfect will." Romans 12:1-2

Are you willing to seek the Lord to know His will for your life? Are you willing to do God's will regardless of His assignment? Choose today to pick up your cross and follow Him forever. He will never lead you down a wrong path. Imagine if you had sought the Lord at an earlier age seeking to know and do the will of God in your life and marriage. How different your marriage may have been!

"I desire to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart." Psalm 40:8

Today, your question may be very simple. "How do I know God's will for my marriage?"

A few years before I divorced Bob, I met with our pastor. I told him briefly some of our marriage problems. I also told our pastor how much I loved Bob and did not believe in divorce. He talked to me for a little while, but then he said, "Charlyne, I feel God wants me to give you a scripture that you need to do for the rest of your life. I hope it becomes very special to you."

Well, I was deeply disappointed with him giving me one scripture, but now I share it frequently in devotionals and to many people. I did not allow the Holy Spirit to speak to my heart at that time. I had to wait until it came alive to me after our divorce. I pray that this scripture will become like manna was to the Israelites or let it be your "rhema" word for today.

"Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus." I Thessalonians 5:16-18

As you seek to "know and do" the will of God may this be one of the first scriptures that you choose to memorize. The Lord does have a sense a humor with me because this scripture came alive to me at the beginning of my stand. Then the Lord gave me months later, another scripture in Philippians 4:4-9. I will let you look this scripture up, a hint: "rejoice!"

Let me share several scriptures that will help you to "know" God's will for you regarding marriage. Have you started to stand and fight for your marriage? Then you need to look up all the scriptures in the Bible about marriage and divorce. You need to read and understand them. Another suggestion, cross-reference them also.

If you were taking a college course, you would have to read a large book on the subject you are taking. You need to get serious and start reading the Bible. May I suggest you read the Bible daily, but try reading the Bible topically. The Lord will teach you a lot about different topics. You will learn how to become a strong Christian and become the wife/mother or husband/father that you need to become by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Let me start sharing a few scriptures that begin in Genesis. As you read the Bible, you will read that God created man and then God created the woman as God said "It is not good for the man to be alone." Genesis 2:18

"Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man." For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." Genesis 2:22-24

So God created a woman to be the man's helpmate and loving companion. You need to learn how to "know" and "do" the will of God in your marriage. Let me have you read two powerful scriptures that will show you that God wants marriages to be all that He created marriage to be in the beginning, one-flesh and forever.

"Another thing you do: You flood the Lord's altar with tears. You weep and wail because he no longer pays attention to your offerings or accepts them with pleasure from your hands. You ask, "Why?" It is because the Lord is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant. Has not the LORD made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth. "I hate divorce," says the Lord God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as well as with his garment," says the Lord Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith." Malachi 2:13-16

"Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?" "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." Matthew 19:3-9

You need to believe in the institution of marriage, the permanence, the sanctity and the covenant of marriage. There are so many different scriptures that teach us about the permanence of marriage:

"To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife." I Corinthians 7:10-11

"A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord. In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I think that I too have the Spirit of God." I Corinthians 7:39-40

"When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery." Mark 10:10-12

There are many other scriptures about marriage and about husbands and wives, but today I pray that you will start the first step in "knowing and doing the will of God" by crying out to the Lord and telling Him that you want to "know" His will for your life and marriage. Will you make that first step and cry out asking Him for His direction and answers for only your life and marriage?

"'Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know.'" Jeremiah 33:3

The only thing I disagree with here is that adultery is a reason for D and remarriage. The catholic church does not agree with the modern use of adultery as a reason to D and remarry. You can read up on why if you are inclined to do so.

Kevin
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 06:51 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
How long did you and your W pray together about whether it was God's will for you to M?


She refused to pray with me for whether or not this was God's will for our M. She instead prayed that God would give her OM and take him away from his family. She said she knew it was wrong, but God already knew what she wanted so that was what she was going to pray for.

However, she said she did pray earlier on for his will, but still would not pray with me.

Kevin


you apparently mistook the Q kevin ...read more closely, you gave an answer that had nothing to do with the original q as I interpreted it.

read more closely! or else pay no attn to any of this whirlwind of inquiries and slams that you regularly receive.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 06:52 PM
VD,

If you are commanded to always forgive, why would you have a reason to D? Wouldn't the 2 contradict each other?

Look up the catholic teaching on adultery and D based on Matthew 19:9. I don't have time to relook it up right now and explain it as I don't remember the exact reason other than culture of the times I believe dictated that in that case it was engagement that Jesus was referring to which was considered hitched until the sacraments took place. But if you look in the rest of the gospels and later on Jesus said if anyone divorces and remarries another it is adultery. He did not give an exception clause. Now why would Jesus contradict himself? He wouldn't.

Do some research on it. Let me know what you think.

Kevin
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 06:54 PM
they who have ears but do not hear kevin ..eyes but they do not see

make sure your time is being spent wisely kevin. re-evaluate where and on what you are spending your time. You do not get it back you know.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 06:54 PM
Quote:
How long did you and your W pray together about whether it was God's will for you to M?


Thanks Tomato, I did misinterpret the question. We did go to marriage counseling with the pastor that married us. As far as how long we prayed before we got married? I don't know or remember. We may not have. I am not sure on that one. But that has no bearing on the fact that once we got married, the covenant was made.

Kevin
Posted By: Serenity13 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:02 PM
Catholic stance on divorce is as follows...(I am not catholic just trying to help Kevin)

The Old Testament did allow divorce, but then it was mostly Hebrew scripture. Divorce was disallowed at the time of Jesus Christ (the New Testament).

The official position then of the Catholic Church is that marriage is a sacrament that cannot be dissolved. A valid marriage has to endure until one spouse dies. The surviving spouse then is allowed to remarry. The Catholic Church does not grant divorce decrees nor does it recognize divorces issued by other religions or institutions.

The Catholic Church can, however, annul a marriage if there is sufficient proof that the marriage was invalid to begin with. Grounds for annulment include being forced to marry someone, not having enough information about that individual – as an example – if the party was an abuser, a convicted rapist and if the individual lied (about wanting children as one example). A marriage can also be annuled by the Catholic Church if the sexual act was not consummated.

If Catholics divorce and remarry, they are still welcome to worship but they cannot receive the Holy Eucharist.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:05 PM
Wow this has got to be one of the most philosophically-laden post in the history of DB.

Aside from what Kevin believes, remember the issue is that his W doesn't want the M.

Period.

Everyone can try changing Kevin's POV, but it comes down to what the W wants. Not what Kevin does. Whether it's God's Will or not, his W doesn't want the M.

It's not temporary insanity, it's not because she doesn't know what she wants (she had a list of valid R problems), and it's not because she

She is a WAS who felt hurt for a number of years in a co-dependent R who finally made the break to live for herself.

The more fervently Kevin gets pushed into a debate about God, the more it's going to sound like you're fighting against the devil rather than it simply being the matter of a woman whose needs weren't met.

All heavenly debates aside, that's what it boils down to.

He neglected his W, she put up with alot of sh*t until she couldn't take it anymore and feels she can now live the life she feels she missed out on.

And let's face it, we all don't blame her. Seeing Kevin's obsessive R with her even now would make the majority of us run away too. Kevin, just stop with the obsession and let her live her life. Let her free and if she comes back it was meant to be.

It doesn't matter what you think or what you believe. It matters what she thinks (even though you adamantly believe she's wrong) because until you acknowledge that, you will not have the compassion to get her back or anyone else for that matter. Compassion is what it comes down to. Understanding things from HER point of view.

All we've seen here is how judgemental you can be to people you don't agree with. If you don't change that, your W will NEVER come back. Why would she want to stay with someone who is judgemental all the time about what you do? You insist on having God on your side yet you make side comments about her and always say "I can't see why she can't..." That's just it. YOU can't see why. You say you can, but you keep cutting down her character here on these boards.

Even in the scenario of if it was one of your D's in a relationship like yours, you insist on pushing on with the M without understanding the sitch through your D's eyes.

Start learning compassion and you'll be a better person. Or if you want a biblical reference "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:06 PM
Look,

I choose my stand based on the bible, God, and church. I know what it says. The world hates what it says because it does not fall in line with what they want. It is very very hard to stand in the face of what W is doing. But she is my covenant W. And I must do it if I am to follow what God says about M. It would be far easier to hook up with someone else. But it would be wrong. I can't do that with a good concious knowing what I know. It would eat at me and I would never feel comfortable in that situation because I would know it is wrong. Therefore I am doing the hardest thing I can do because I know it is the right thing to do. And I do truly love her.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:10 PM
you called her a whore, kevin.

she hates you.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:14 PM
Stuck,

I admitted my mistakes. I also do not pursue her anymore or contact her. I leave her alone. She contacts me.

Regardless of the mistakes that were made on both sides of the M and mostly were mine, it does not change the fact that a covenant M was created. You can call it judgemental all you want. But our M was valid and we do have a covenant. I'm not sure why that is so hard to understand.

You can call me the devil all you want for me standing for our covenant. I know I made mistakes. I repented of them and do daily. It doesn't change that I still stand for our M. I'm not forcing her to stay in it. I'm not doing anything to her. But I myself am standing for it.

Do I understand why she wanted separation? OF COURSE I DO. SHE NEEDED IT.

Do I understand moving forward in an adulterous lifestyle? I understand it is what she wants. But it doesn't make it right. Am I her judge? No. I am simply stating my position on where I am standing and why I am standing. If it is judgemental to defend my stance, so be it.

Kevin
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:14 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Look,

I choose my stand based on the bible, God, and church. I know what it says. The world hates what it says because it does not fall in line with what they want. It is very very hard to stand in the face of what W is doing. But she is my covenant W. And I must do it if I am to follow what God says about M. It would be far easier to hook up with someone else. But it would be wrong. I can't do that with a good concious knowing what I know. It would eat at me and I would never feel comfortable in that situation because I would know it is wrong. Therefore I am doing the hardest thing I can do because I know it is the right thing to do. And I do truly love her.

Kevin


Then do it Kevin and stop flippin' complaining about it! You should be the model of contentment with the degree of certainty you espouse. So show us. Don't you want to impress upon all of us that your view of God and the Church is the right path? Perhaps inspire more of us to follow? Then do it. You hold yourself up as some kind of outstandingly devoted Catholic. So, show us how it is done. It should be absolutely fulfilling to you to exhibit the glory of God's word. And, you should certainly have no reason to drink or say stupid things to your children or your W. You should be on your game with your level of conviction. Anything less makes you look like a lazy, dogmatic, unstable and delusional man.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:15 PM
Quote:
you called her a whore, kevin.

she hates you.


Yes, in a drunken stupor, I said that after she called me things. I also apologized and repented for the whole situation.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:17 PM
Quote:
Then do it Kevin and stop flippin' complaining about it! You should be the model of contentment with the degree of certainty you espouse. So show us. Don't you want to impress upon all of us that your view of God and the Church is the right path? Perhaps inspire more of us to follow? Then do it. You hold yourself up as some kind of outstandingly devoted Catholic. So, show us how it is done. It should be absolutely fulfilling to you to exhibit the glory of God's word. And, you should certainly have no reason to drink or say stupid things to your children or your W. You should be on your game with your level of conviction. Anything less makes you look like a lazy, dogmatic, unstable and delusional man.


Understood. I am not perfect as nobody is.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:17 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I said that after she called me things.


childish!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:18 PM
Quote:
childish!


Yes it was and it was a poor example of a H and a Christian.

Kevin
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:20 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
Then do it Kevin and stop flippin' complaining about it! You should be the model of contentment with the degree of certainty you espouse. So show us. Don't you want to impress upon all of us that your view of God and the Church is the right path? Perhaps inspire more of us to follow? Then do it. You hold yourself up as some kind of outstandingly devoted Catholic. So, show us how it is done. It should be absolutely fulfilling to you to exhibit the glory of God's word. And, you should certainly have no reason to drink or say stupid things to your children or your W. You should be on your game with your level of conviction. Anything less makes you look like a lazy, dogmatic, unstable and delusional man.


Understood. I am not perfect as nobody is.

Kevin


Kevin, walk the walk! No excuses. Or are you just a mere mortal like the rest of us? You have postured yourself as capable of the impossible (insisting that only one resolution is acceptable when it is out of your control) so, you better be closer to perfect than all of us here or you are going down...
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:21 PM
Quote:
Kevin, walk the walk! No excuses. Or are you just a mere mortal like the rest of us? You have postured yourself as capable of the impossible (insisting that only one resolution is acceptable when it is out of your control) so, you better be closer to perfect than all of us here or you are going down...


I am trying to do is strive to be better and explain my position. Thats all.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:21 PM
I have Kev...You have to remember the context in which he was asked. The Pharisees were trying to test Jesus and asked him if it was ok to D for any reason at all...Which gets into Matthew 19:9.

When he left out the "exception clause" in Mark 10:2 it was the way the question was noted by Mark, Mark left out the for any reason at all part.

Another way of expressing the framework of these words, is that Jesus was reminding them, that without a “just-cause” for divorcing, it is (and was) not lawful (moral) to divorce and remarry without committing sin (Remember this is the same account as Matthew records).
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:25 PM
it was i am sorry
Posted By: Serenity13 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:29 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Got any naked pictures of your wife?


That was uncalled for.
Posted By: Coach Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:32 PM
Everybody calm down. This has reached the point of being unproductive. Kevin's beliefs are his beliefs, his problems are his problems, his strengths are his strengths and his kids are his kids.
Kevin your fellow DBers here are frustrated with you. Fellow DBers just because we get louder, more passionate and more sarcastic doesn't mean Kevin is going to listen. Let the man figure it out for himself.
Might be time for the LRT for Kev. cool

Cheers
Coach
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:37 PM
I just sent my priest an email asking him what are my options in this regarding remarriage. He said at this time we have to assume my M was and is valid. He said later on we can look into it but I shouldn't assume I can remarry. He said right now the important thing is for me to get as many of us, I am assuming he means my family as close to God as possible.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:40 PM
"Regardless of the mistakes that were made on both sides of the M and mostly were mine, it does not change the fact that a covenant M was created. You can call it judgemental all you want. But our M was valid and we do have a covenant. I'm not sure why that is so hard to understand."

I think you missed the whole point of the post. I'm not saying that your choice to fight for your M is judgemental. Your ATTITUDE towards her is judgemental.

You are the one that is not understanding. You seem to only pick out the points or hear the things you want to hear.

"I also do not pursue her anymore or contact her. I leave her alone."

Doesn't look that way to me. She kept telling you to leave her alone, but you contact her any way.

And about the "Rejoice Ministries" stuff. I've visited that site numerous times to get motivated. You only pick out the stuff that you want to hear about standing for your M.

Did you read the posts on their about showing compassion to your W? That's what my whole post was about.

I never said you were the devil. Geez dude, you need to lighten up.

If at the very least, answer this...can you treat your W with compassion? Which means, can you see things through her eyes right now? Imagine if you were her and you saw you doing and hearing all of the things you were saying to her from her point of view. Can you do that?
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:44 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
Everybody calm down. This has reached the point of being unproductive. Kevin's beliefs are his beliefs, his problems are his problems, his strengths are his strengths and his kids are his kids.
Kevin your fellow DBers here are frustrated with you. Fellow DBers just because we get louder, more passionate and more sarcastic doesn't mean Kevin is going to listen. Let the man figure it out for himself.
Might be time for the LRT for Kev. cool

Cheers
Coach


As usual, right on the money.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:47 PM
Quote:
If at the very least, answer this...can you treat your W with compassion? Which means, can you see things through her eyes right now? Imagine if you were her and you saw you doing and hearing all of the things you were saying to her from her point of view. Can you do that?


Yes. I can see things from her point of view. I don't agree spiritually that it is the way to handle things by going off with someone else. But I can see how I have screwed up enough to make her think twice about me which is why I am in such a deep hole that I have to dig myself out of now.

I know she does not see eye to eye with me. I know I have to change my actions completely. Do a complete 180 and then hope and pray for the best. I am trying to do that with her. And other than that stupid drunken state I was in when we argued and of course the other night, I had been doing better at times with her. But now I have to really step it up permanently.

And that post was just one I had read today. I try to read a couple each day from the rejoice ministries site. I have to go there to get any kind of boost of hope at times.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:51 PM
The rejoice ministries site is why I still believe it is possible to have my M restored with time. Before I was told to look at that site, I was really believing there was no hope in the future for reconciliation because of what everyone was saying. But that site told me that God can and does bring M's back from the dead. But it also says I have to change me and continually pray for my W and family and for God to heal and restore us.

So I believe it can be done. But obviously not without work on my part. But with work on my part, I believe it can still be done although it may be years and probably will to have a shot again at God healing us and restoring us.

The site just reinforces that nothing is impossible with God including "dead" M's. That site is a Godsent when you have lost all hope.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:52 PM
LRT = Last Resort Technique (What to do when all else fails)Explained in detail on page 177 in Michele's "Divorce Busting" book.

I had to look this up. I didn't remember what it stood for.

Kevin
Posted By: Coach Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:56 PM
Quote:
LRT = Last Resort Technique (What to do when all else fails)


That's what we, the DB posters, need to do to you. Not you to your wife. Just to make sure you understand.
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:57 PM
Quote:
I am in such a deep hole that I have to dig myself out of now.


That might be the problem...stop digging...the whole just gets deeper...
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:58 PM
Understood Coach.

Kevin
Posted By: Serenity13 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 07:58 PM
I also get daily emails from the Rejoice Ministries...

They are a Godsend to me on days when I am down...

With that said...

You do know God helps those that helps themselves right...

What are you doing to better yourself?

Answer that question without mentioning what you are doing for yourself to get your W back - What are you truly doing for you?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 08:02 PM
Journaling:

I'm not sure what I said that was so wrong. I just merely stated my spiritual beliefs and it turned into a huge debate.

I should have exited earlier on and just let it be. What was accomplished by continuing on? Nothing.

The main points are still the same. Detach, work on me, and live life for me and my kids. Let God do his thing.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 08:05 PM
Quote:
With that said...

You do know God helps those that helps themselves right...

What are you doing to better yourself?

Answer that question without mentioning what you are doing for yourself to get your W back - What are you truly doing for you?


I am going to AA for me. I am trying to make more friends. I am learning how to dance. I am trying to learn more at work. I am trying to learn more from the bible. I am trying to get into better physical shape. I am trying to keep myself more positive when I am alone. I am listening to CoDependent No More for me.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 08:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Serenity13
Catholic stance on divorce is as follows...(I am not catholic just trying to help Kevin)

The Old Testament did allow divorce, but then it was mostly Hebrew scripture. Divorce was disallowed at the time of Jesus Christ (the New Testament).

The official position then of the Catholic Church is that marriage is a sacrament that cannot be dissolved. A valid marriage has to endure until one spouse dies. The surviving spouse then is allowed to remarry. The Catholic Church does not grant divorce decrees nor does it recognize divorces issued by other religions or institutions.

The Catholic Church can, however, annul a marriage if there is sufficient proof that the marriage was invalid to begin with. Grounds for annulment include being forced to marry someone, not having enough information about that individual – as an example – if the party was an abuser, a convicted rapist and if the individual lied (about wanting children as one example). A marriage can also be annuled by the Catholic Church if the sexual act was not consummated.

If Catholics divorce and remarry, they are still welcome to worship but they cannot receive the Holy Eucharist.


Please Re read my post. That info is a tad out of date. I know this. My Catholic brother just married for the 2nd time, to a woman entering her 2nd marriage and both of them have 3 daughters. They married IN the church with a full mass. I WAS THERE and I know my brother did not get an annulment. His first M was not in the Church but some other denomination. Maybe that was a distinction that would allow for an annulment BUT there was NO annulment and I am Catholic and studied canon law at Catholic U Law School. In short, there is a bit more leeway and room than kev4 is able to handle right now and or that some other denominations do not know of. Period.

True, the Church does NOT grant divorces. But they don't banish you nor forever keep you from participating in the Eucharist if you are granted one (unless you filed for it and even then, it's not an absolute prohibition. My sister in law was beaten and abused and her children were kidnapped by her first h...Thank GOD she won't be punished the rest of her life for the mistake of marrying him at the ripe old age of 18).

Enough of the religion please. It is a deflection for kevin to avoid doing the work he needs to do. I couldn't even finish reading the scriptural quotes that are used and misused all the time. Waste of time. Who are you trying to convince and of what? No one here wants to debate God's existence with you. We want YOU to stop using him as an excuse for your stubborness which is a HUGE obstacle to growth for you....can't you see that?

And frankly, some marriages SHOULD end, BUT to see it your way Kevin, would mean an abused woman who married at age 18 b/c of some insecurity or weekend crazyiness, or mistaken vision of "love", could NEVER file for divorce, and IF she filed for a separation only...b/c divorce is so wrong/ she better be in a state that allows it AND she better not ever have another man just b/c she married the first man when she was 18, mistakenly at a young age, and that man victimized her. No, I don't believe God would compound that terrible situation by forever punishing her...I just don't. Divorce is hated by God, okay I'll accept that. I believe it. But there ARE things he hates more.... There's something called prayerful thought, but perhaps it allows for too much freedom for some to handle.

My brother takes care of his w and his step daughters, after they were taken to a refugee camp overseas...and traumatized for 18 months. He was divorced and had his 3 d's half time doing his best when he met his 2ndW, who was divorced but missing her kidnapped daughters. You are telling me he could not marry my sister in law and is doing something immoral b/c he did marry her, and now they have a home and food and safety AWAY from her nutty ex-h terrorist, and that the LOVE IN THEIR HOME is immoral? No, sorry. I don't buy that.

I think GOD INTRODUCED MY BROTHER TO THIS WOMAN OF SUBSTANCE, WHO TRAVELLED THE WORLD ALONE TO GET HER GIRLS BACK from a terrorist camp that called all American women whores....yes, you may have heard of her. [i[b]]She's a hero and not a whore for marrying my brother, which is what YOUR interpretation makes her...[/b]. [/i] The way you describe God and all the inflexible endless rules does NOT convey his love and acceptance. How sad.

PLEASE READ "BLUE LIKE JAZZ" to see the damage done to the world when God's real message is misused like this. HE is a God of healing and love and acceptance.

We're wasting time on this....really....sorry if I made it worse but I HAD to speak up for my sister in law and brother and some perceptions of the Church. And though I cannot speak for Jesus or God, I know that He is a unifying force, not a divisive one.

So think about that. If you are quoting scripture to "be proved right" then you are putting ego ahead of love....again the book "Blue Like Jazz" (Which really is a great book everyone, very provocative) addresses this and speaks to it. There ARE ways to talk about God and emulate and MODEL His word without spouting it off....

No offense but K4, you KNOW you need to work on you and guess what? How many people here, sent to you perhaps by Him, (some at least) have to tell you that maybe GOD wants you to work on YOU NOW? And for now, that's all....
LISTEN...
j-
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 08:19 PM
Hey, total hijack here but 25, could you kindly tell me why you completely bailed on my thread just as I started to turn things around? I'd love to glean something from it and really it just confounds me. I have much respect for you and your generous contributions here, just really hoping to get some clarification.

Sorry kevin. smirk
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 08:27 PM
Not a problem A&K.

Anyone can hijack or post on here any time they want or need to. I am never bothered by it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 08:38 PM
25,

Thats the whole thing. People believe what they want to believe. If it isn't emotionally what they like, they choose to believe something that is emotionally what they would like. I don't know the circumstances of the priest that married your brother or sister in law, nor could I begin to say anything about it if a priest did it. I admit I don't understand how he could do that without the M at least being annulled. But I am no expert either.

You having studied canon law and I assume tradional canon law as I don't think there is any other kind, would know more than I would. That is interesting that a priest did that.

The bottom line is I don't agree with what my W is doing morally, but I also know there is nothing I can do about it. So I just pray for restoration.

And yes, I am going to get Blue Like Jazz.

Have you read the book "The Faith"? I currently have that one. It explains quite a bit.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 08:40 PM
25,

Do you go to a traditional latin mass or a modern day mass?

Just curious.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 08:42 PM
My guess is your SIL probably fit into the pauline privelage. Just a guess though.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 08:57 PM
Quote:
True, the Church does NOT grant divorces.


I just don't see how the remarriage can be valid if the church does not grant D's. I will admit, I am confused on how a priest got around this.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 09:00 PM
Well,

It doesn't matter. This isn't about religion or politics. It is about DBing.

I am going to have to keep it to that. I will keep my faith to myself.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/13/09 11:22 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Well,

It doesn't matter. This isn't about religion or politics. It is about DBing.

I am going to have to keep it to that. I will keep my faith to myself.


Kevin


Ta daaaahhhh!! Sorry I even engaged in it....so pointless....diversionary, etc.
j-
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 12:47 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D


It would be far easier to say to heck with it all and start dating again. I almost did. Infact at one point, I did go on a date earlier on because I felt like what is the point of standing.


I don't remember you going on a date? When was this?
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 02:41 AM
I don't remember this either. Must be holding out on us.

One suggestion Kevin. If you're going to be a stander, stop talking about how cute and attractive another woman looks to you. You keep mentioning stuff like that. Shows you're not sincere.
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 03:05 AM
Originally Posted By: stuck808
I don't remember this either. Must be holding out on us.

One suggestion Kevin. If you're going to be a stander, stop talking about how cute and attractive another woman looks to you. You keep mentioning stuff like that. Shows you're not sincere.


Amen!! I was thinking the same thing. Kevin, start thinking about yourself and your little girls, they really, really, need you.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 04:11 AM
As I said, it was a while back before I got serious about my stand for my M. And it was just a coffee date and led to nothing because I told her I was married. It was the week I was supposed to be D'd. But my W missed the date and I renewed my stand after reading rejoice ministries website.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 04:11 AM
Stuck, just because I notice someone is attractive, does not mean I am acting on it anymore. I am married, not dead.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 04:33 AM
D7 watched Rocky 3 again tonight. She loves that movie. At one point we were driving in the car and I brought up, "There is no tomorrow" and she remembered it well as she loves that line. Then she says "There is no tomorrow man, pull yourself together". I started cracking up but then also realized how profound that is.

There are so many life lessons to be learned from all of the rocky movies. If I had to pick a series for someone to watch to teach them about lessons in life, the rocky series would be it. If you don't learn from those, you are really dense.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 04:49 AM
I was telling my BIL how frusturating this is to stand when it feels like there is no hope and he said it is time for me to read the book of Job again in the bible. Figures he would come up with something like that. It is true. Hosea also comes to mind.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 04:55 AM
Kevin, it's not the fact that you are noticing girls, that's normal. It's the fact that you actually post it here and then in the same post mention how you are not looking for someone to be a new W.

I mean, you are the only one who really can't see what you are doing. You are so transparent.

Those insecurities are what's killing you right now.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 01:56 PM
I see what you are saying Stuck. I am thinking on it to much. You are right. I have to many insecurities.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 02:27 PM
I am supposed to go school clothes shopping with W on Sunday. It will be a good opportunity for me to put my best foot forward.

D11 gets back from Florida tomorrow. She has had a fun week there.

My dad is coming to visit Thursday of this upcoming week. I am looking forward to that.

Life is what you make of it.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 02:34 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I am supposed to go school clothes shopping with W on Sunday. It will be a good opportunity for me to put my best foot forward.
Kevin


Yup. Just DONT put it "forward" into your mouth...
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 02:36 PM
Quote:
Yup. Just DONT put it "forward" into your mouth...


I have learned my lesson on that one.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 02:44 PM
I'll hold you to that. wink We all make mistakes... some MORE then others. Some are "addicted" to making mistakes and getting attention for them. The nice thing about it is we can stop making them at any time...

Just be nice and pleasant. Act like you have everything going for you.... Not a care in the world.

Good luck. PMA
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 02:54 PM
Thanks PMA, I will.

Just a bit of a highlight... W did not refile for D this week.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 02:56 PM
DW, how are things going for you? How is your family holding up?

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 02:58 PM
Doesn't have anything to do with you focusing on being the best you can be for YOU and your girls.

It's not your job to worry about her anymore. Leave it up to God to do his will. You CANT handle that; GOD can.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 03:11 PM
Quote:
You CANT handle that; GOD can.


True. I need to just remind myself of that daily.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 05:56 PM
Journaling:

I think I might buy a cheap grill and start grilling out. D7 wants me to. I could do it tonight.

W told me she is going to be going to look at vehicles tonight. I expect I will be signing over the title tonight or tomorrow so she can get her vehicle.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 06:52 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
You CANT handle that; GOD can.


True. I need to just remind myself of that daily.

Kevin


Probably remind yourself hourly, and every 5 min when you are with her. Stop asking her anything about whether she'll file, which she obviously cannot afford to do now, or any questions about her including how she is or how she feels, unless she is on the ground clutching her chest. She is on her own PER HER WISHES and does NOT want you in her life. Period. If you continue to hound her, emotionally or mentally following her around like a puppy as you have been, or lashing out and snapping at her when you get too frustrated b/c your sole focus on her IS frustrating, (it's hard as heck for us to watch), but if you keep this up much longer, you will always be in a committed relationship ALONE, whether she files this month or in a year. That's it K4. You are blowing it in every way you can. To me, the biggest challenge I have even posting here, is watching how you let yourself AND your daughters down, again.

Your ONLY concerns now are your girls, your job, your growth as a man (GAL) and your recovery. You should NOT to be talking to her OR US about her wishes, her finances, her dating, her problems, her sleeping with OM, or not or what that might mean, or her morals, or your view of her thoughts or your thoughts about her plans, or your view of her morals (work on YOURS and speak NOT of others, you know "the splinter and the plank"??). And No more self righteous preaching, please, you have wasted space and time and energy that should have gone to the kids and your recovery.

How is the c going for your d's? How is THAT GOING??
Please don't ignore that question.
j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 07:33 PM
W is not agreeing to the C right now. I was trying to get her to do it with me for the kids. But she doesn't feel that she has the money right now.

So I guess I am on my own to take care of it. I suppose that will look better to a judge.

My BIL is recommending me for a job at his company that would pay more, be permanent with benefits, and allow me to work from home. That would help out when the kids are sick. I could also pick up the kids after school on my weeks and not have to pay for after care. He told me to get my resume to him so I will do that tonight. It would be great to get that job.

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 09:12 PM
Kevin,

Once and for all -- get those girls in counseling. We're sick and tired of you making excuses. This has been going for MONTHS and is a SERIOUS issue regarding your DAUGHTERS.

You're the one getting all the advice needed as far as getting them help, and you don't do it.

And if you do it on your own, so be it. It's the right thing to do, and not because it would look good to a judge. At this point, if any judge granted you sole custody of your girls, that would be a grave mistake. You are not capable of being the primary caregiver.

I just hope you can live with yourself if it turns out that their emotional and mental well being suffers -- because that's all on you, my friend. Especially with your 11 year old starting middle school, which is he!! on girls w/no family issues. Wake up Kevin -- if you can't get this done, there's no hope left for you.

And thank you for inquiring about my BIL. He lapsed into a coma last night, and it won't be long. Everyone is holding up. I'm just happy to be able to spend so much time all of them.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 09:23 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I am supposed to go school clothes shopping with W on Sunday.

Life is what you make of it.

Kevin


Kevin, it is what you make it. What are you making? How many c's have you called? Come on, buddy, the AA meetings are a wonderful step (are you still going?) but the C is next.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 09:26 PM
I am making an appointment for next week for me to go talk to the C by myself to get it rolling. And I didn't mean I would do it to look good in front of the judge. I meant that with me doing it and W not it probably does look better to a judge. But that is not the reason I am doing it. I am doing it to help my girls.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/14/09 09:28 PM
Hi Wifey,

Yes I am still going to the AA meetings. I sure hope I get this job with insurance to help cover the cost of this C. But if I don't they still need it.

Kevin
Posted By: LR1 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/15/09 03:45 AM
Kev,

How are you doing? Haven't heard from you in a while.

LR1
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/15/09 06:27 PM
Doing good.

Today W called me and told me she got her vehicle. She was very excited about it. She emailed me pictures of it and we had a good conversation about that and the kids and other things. Good phone call and good emails.

She even suggested if we get out of church early enough tomorrow that she might be interested in going to lunch with us before we go school clothes shopping. She also said she wanted to tell me about the Dallas Cowboys discount party stand thing they have going since she thought I would be interested in that. I told her ya, that is what me and my dad are going to do this coming Friday. She said her and her friends might go do that sometime soon also. We talked about me and D7 doing our barbq and she said she hopes we enjoy that.

This tells me one thing. She still thinks about me. I didn't think she did. But she does. She still tries to think about things she knows I would enjoy and tell me about them.

I kept positive the entire time in both conversations. I told her I was proud of her for taking care of herself with the vehicle and getting a good deal.

I have subscribed to the "Zip your lips" from rejoice ministries. All in all it went really well considering how bad last weekend went with my screwing up and all.

D7 and I are going to barbq today. We went for a bit of a nature hike this morning and are going to go swimming later on together. I am going to pick up D11 tonight when she gets back in town.

Praise God. He is working on things as long as I work on things. I think I did well in both of my conversations with her. I didn't stick my foot in my mouth at all. And tomorrow I will have another opportunity to shine. True that she is still talking about trips with just her and the girls and my dog. But that is ok. Baby steps. I'm looking into things also for me and the girls. The good thing is that she hasn't let last weekend make her completely pull away from talking to me. What a blessing.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/15/09 06:35 PM
I don't want any more negativity on my thread from me or anyone else. Positive stuff only. Constructive criticism is good. But no negativity. Positive reinforcement. PMA. I think to often I come here feeling good about some things and then just get brought down in feeling like I can't do anything right. If I am going to get 2x4'd, make it constructive. No attacks.

If yall don't mind. Thanks.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/15/09 06:36 PM
Also,

I have the next 4 days of AA meetings lined up. So that is good.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/15/09 06:37 PM
W also said she is praying I get this job also. I have to be a very strong candidate to get it since I am based in Dallas and my boss would be based in Charlotte. I'm going to do my best.

Kevin
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/15/09 07:12 PM
Kevin

the earlier talk in one of your posts has me deeply concerned. I was planning on coming down there to Dallas for a visit with you guys in a couple weeks. That is now severely in jeopardy.

You are a Cowboys fan ...are ya??

This sickens me. Come to your senses already dude? There still is hope for you yet. When I come down there I will be in EAGLES GREEN!!!!

T
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/15/09 07:13 PM
please tell me it is not so!!
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/15/09 08:09 PM
Kev,

First of all that's great news on the AA meetings, just remember the program works if you work it, and you can. The BIGGEST thing about AA and IC is to figure out why you started abusing in the first place. You have no idea how much I'm rooting for you on this...

It's great to hear you and your W had a good talk, just PLEASE don't get your hopes up. You must be doing something right, figure that out and do more of it. Just know that set backs will come, if you do the work on YOU, you have a chance but ONLY if you work on you...

I know you know this get your D's into C ASAP, you should be able to tell us on Monday they have an appt, this is more important than anything right now...soft 2x4...
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/15/09 08:52 PM
Quote:
You are a Cowboys fan ...are ya??

This sickens me. Come to your senses already dude? There still is hope for you yet. When I come down there I will be in EAGLES GREEN!!!!

please tell me it is not so!!


Kevin shruggs in disbelief. Kevin then speaks and says confidently... "It is so".

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/15/09 09:03 PM
Quote:
The BIGGEST thing about AA and IC is to figure out why you started abusing in the first place.


Yes, that is something I am trying to figure out each time I go. All it did was make things bad, so why did I do it as opposed to an alternative? I think about that each time I am there and listening to someone talk or going through the book. I could have been so much further along in life if I had looked for an alternative healthy way of dealing with things and life would have been much better for all of us.

Quote:
It's great to hear you and your W had a good talk, just PLEASE don't get your hopes up. You must be doing something right, figure that out and do more of it. Just know that set backs will come, if you do the work on YOU, you have a chance but ONLY if you work on you...


I find that if I respond positively around my W, things go well between us. But if I am negative or emotional in any way at all, things go very poorly very quickly and she wants nothing to do with me. She didn't file for D this week and everything this weekend looks good for a baby step. But do not worry. I am not getting my hopes up that there won't be setbacks. I'm just trying to take the positive track with her going forward. The more positive I am around her and in my life, the better chance I have of her wanting to be around me at all. I figured that out.

I'm also doing a lot of praying and repenting with it.

Quote:
I know you know this get your D's into C ASAP, you should be able to tell us on Monday they have an appt, this is more important than anything right now...soft 2x4...


I should be able to do this especially now that I know W is not going to help me out with it at this time. Thanks for the soft 2x4 and the support.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/16/09 02:47 AM
I may have been the poster child for what not to do. But from this point on I will be a poster child for what to do.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/16/09 03:37 AM
"this point on I will be a poster child for what to do."

Please do not label yourself the poster child. If you did you would have detached already. Just do what you want to do. I pray it works out for you.

good luck.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/16/09 04:27 AM
Stuck,

I said going forward I will be. I have my plans in motion.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/16/09 04:28 AM
Thank you for the prayers stuck. I pray that your M is restored also.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/17/09 05:07 AM
Today was a most wonderful day. I spent the whole day with W and kids after church. We went shopping for school clothes. We then went and got starbucks together. Then we did more shopping. Then W suggested we eat dinner together. Then we did more shopping. We got along so well. It was just like old times. We talked about all kinds of things. At one point D11 asks W if we can all go to Destin Florida together sometime. W said maybe. D11 looked at me and said she had to ask because she had already asked me.

W and I did not argue once. I zipped my lips the entire day on anything that could have been bad. We were so nice to each other and W took a genuine interest in wanting to help me out and look for things for me also. We worked together as a team and did well. I could not have asked for things to go better considering last weekend. I stuck to my positive outlook. Although she did talk from time to time about her male friends, I just took it in stride and was never negative. We talked about my friends and about what each of us do during our off weeks. She has quite the life. She goes shooting on Mondays, boating on Tuesdays, plays poker on Wednesdays and Saturdays. Goes to a movie once a week with her female friend and does belly dancing on Thursdays as well as eats dinner one night a week with her family. She has a lot going on. We talked about how we each save money and agreed on a lot of things with the kids. We joked together and had great conversations. It really was like it used to be. We activated our kids cell phones again by finding our old ones since they lost the current ones. We talked about getting a dog together and splitting time with it basically it going to whoevers house the kids are at each week. We talked about work together and my dad coming and adjusting the schedule for the kids while he is here and church and many things. At times I was a little sad because things were just like they used to be. But I would quickly put it out of my mind. At the end of the night, she thanked me.

It was really great. I had prayed and prayed for a good day today and it was. Not once did we argue or anything negative with each other. It left me feeling like maybe there is some hope in the future if I can keep on the right track with her. True she talked about trips with her and the kids without me. That is fine. The positive is we were able to spend the whole day together getting along again.

It was so nice. I did what worked 2 days in a row now. I will keep on doing it. I am seeing positive results all of a sudden by changing my approaches with W. I did mention my AA meetings and she knows I am taking things seriously. This was truly the best day we have had together in almost a year.

25, I am glad you and your H were able to go on a M retreat. I hope it really brought you 2 closer to each other.

BTW, I am still not fooling myself. One good weekend doesn't equal anywhere near a reconciliation. I expect setbacks. But this weekend was really a step in the right direction and I did not put my foot in my mouth and it really seemed like she felt like she could trust me and cared about me even if only in a coparent way. It was more than we have seen in a very very long time. I know my work is still cut out for me. Thank God last weekend didn't kill it for me.

I will post as I have updates.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/17/09 07:41 PM
Love is compassionate. Love is wanting your S to return for their sake. Love is caring about them and their needs. Love is about being selfless.

Do we desire our S back? Yes. Does God want our family to be united and one under him? Yes.

But we have to ask ourselves. Do we want our S back for our own selfish reasons? Or do we want them back because we care about them and our family? Or is it a combination of both? If you care about your spouse, you will not pursue them. You will not tell them how wrong they are. You will pray for their salvation and not your own personal wants or desires. We should want them back because it is what is best for them. You want them to come back because they want to come back because they have realized through your own changes that they are better off with you and not without you.

How do you make it what is best for them? You have to change you. You cannot change them. Through your changes if they are sincere, your S will see that and then become interested in you again because they see that you truly care about them for them and not for yourself.

This is what it means to be unselfish. Many people want their S back for their own needs and wants and desires. I am guilty. But is that a real reason for them to come back? No. The real reason for them to come back would be because you care about them and what happens to them. When they see that you are no longer wanting them back for you but instead because you care about them, you have a much greater chance of success with your marriage. When they see that you can be happy without them, that is far more attractive than you only being able to be happy because they are with you and not somewhere else.

Now there is some bit of complication in this as you may have children that are involved and what is best for them is to have both of their loving parents together raising them together. So in essence, this means that you also want them to return for the betterment of the family. The family is better intact if it is a healthy environment.

For those of you that believe in the unity of God and marriage, this would also mean that you care about their salvation. When your S sees these changes within you, then, and only then will they see someone that truly loves them for them and cares about them and not yourself.

Bottom line, don't pray for your S to return because it is what you desire and want. Pray for your S to return because it is what is best for your S, your kids, and everyone's salvation.

Your job as a H is to lead and serve. This comes with true unconditional love. How do you lead? By example. By showing mercy, compassion, understanding, caring, sacrificing. When they are happy, you are happy because they are happy.

Not detaching is selfish. It means you are not letting go of the grip on them. It isn't your job to grip them or control them. It is your job to be a protector, not a gripper. It is your job to allow them to lead their own life why you love them unconditionally. Letting go does not mean you don't love them. It means that you are showing compassion for them and allowing them the freedom to be who they need to be. It means getting rid of strife. It means that it is ok to disagree and still be in unity.

Truly loving someone is the most selfless thing you can do. You must distinguish the difference between loving someone for them, and wanting someone for you. When you love someone, your wants, desires, needs and happiness come last. Don't confuse this with being codependent. Codependent means you cannot be happy without them. You can be happy without them. Being happy without them is what allows you to truly love them for them. When you love them for them, happiness is the compliment to that.

When the person you love does something that hurts you, it is because you love them. But when you hurt, it should also be because you don't want them to make a decision that is bad for them. There is a feeling of betrayal when someone hurts you. That is natural. But you should not be angry at them, but instead feel pity for them because in the long run, they are really harming themselves if you have truly loved them in the way that you are supposed to. If you have not truly loved them in the way that you are supposed to, sometimes it is better for them to remove themselves from a situation until a true change has taken place within you. After that true change has taken place in you, then it is better for them to return if that change takes place. If you truly love them, you will understand this and work on changing you so that they can return to the type of relationship they should have been able to expect from the beginning. If they still do not return, you pray for their salvation because you truly love and care about them and what happens to them.

I believe if you have this kind of true love, there is no reason for your S to walk away from you and if they do, you have a far better chance of them coming back then if you don't have true genuine love for them.

This is a daily task that everyone must learn to do better each day of their lives. It takes work to truly love someone as Christ loved us. Knowing you will be let down should never change your love for that person. We all make a choice to love and it should always be a lifetime choice once the "I DO" is said. Regardless of what is thrown your way, your love should never change, but only get better and stronger with time as you continue to strive and grow into who you should be as a person, H/W, F/M. Love your S as Christ loved the church. Your S will fall as will you. Pick yourself back up and work harder to not fall again.

To often the whole point of true love is missed in marriages. Often times people confuse love with lust and self gratification. Love is neither lust or self gratification. Love is anything but the 2.

I think I am getting into the area of what true love really is. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Kevin

Gosh I have been so wrong in my thinking.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/17/09 07:49 PM
Infact, when you truly love someone, you should already be happy with your life and that person be a compliment to it, not the foundation for it.

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/17/09 07:51 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D


Gosh I have been so wrong in my thinking.


Yes, you have been.

The paragraph you posted had many good points. Is it from one of the books you're reading??

Stacy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/17/09 07:57 PM
It is from a combination of things and a lot of thinking. I wasn't loving my W for her, I was loving her for me. That was wrong.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/17/09 08:02 PM
It was a very nice speech Kevin. Filled with things you have been told here, or in your books, and maybe by your priest, for months.

When you actually live it for real, and over time, it'll mean great progress. For some reason when I read these lengthy pieces by you and know you have not lived them, it sort of hits me wrong. Like I'm playing a game with my dad when he'd quit drinking, again, and wanted applause...now when he was sober for 90 days and then a year, that got me looking and clapping and feeling gratitude and joy.

j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/17/09 08:05 PM
Can't argue with that 25. I am trying to do it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/17/09 08:34 PM
I would like to just erase my sitch all together and start over. I know far more now than when I first started. Unfortunately, you can't remove the past. You can only move forward.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/17/09 08:52 PM
DW,

I get the point. I have screwed up bad enough that my thread is an example for everyone to look at and see what not to do. But geez, do you have to go telling everyone that?

Can't I have some dignity? lol.

Kevin
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/17/09 10:25 PM
Kev,

I've only told two people that.

LR1 and AAK.

That is NOT everyone.

Keep up your good changes. What about C for the girls??

Stacy
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/17/09 11:00 PM
In fairness to Kevin, this is a public site and we all read each other's threads...I'm sure it doesn't feel great to be referenced like that but Kevin, you seem to be taking it in stride.
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/17/09 11:17 PM
Kevin,

I look so forward to the day when I'll be telling people to check out K4D's thread, because holy cow, has he turned his sitch around.

What do you think, Kev, by Christmas??

And in fairness to you, I won't say that anymore. And I apologize--even though I do think someone like LR1 could really learn from what's gone on w/you. But if I direct someone here, I'll word it in a positive way.

You know I'm rooting for you!!

Stacy
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/18/09 02:06 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Infact, when you truly love someone, you should already be happy with your life and that person be a compliment to it, not the foundation for it.

In my opinion, if you really believe this, you are getting it. It is counter to the movies, the romance novels, the TV shows.... All of the soulmate, and "he completes" me stuff! A couple does become greater than the sum of the parts, but it's because of their differences and uniqueness, not because they become the same person!
Posted By: hoosiermama Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/18/09 02:12 AM
Originally Posted By: Virtually_Handsome
Originally Posted By: K4D
Infact, when you truly love someone, you should already be happy with your life and that person be a compliment to it, not the foundation for it.

In my opinion, if you really believe this, you are getting it. It is counter to the movies, the romance novels, the TV shows.... All of the soulmate, and "he completes" me stuff! A couple does become greater than the sum of the parts, but it's because of their differences and uniqueness, not because they become the same person!

exactly. two halves don't make a whole when it comes to people and relationships.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/19/09 08:50 PM
*Shruggg*
Posted By: LR1 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/19/09 09:22 PM
Kev, How are you doing right now?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/19/09 09:27 PM
Doing ok. Getting ready for a job interview tomorrow.

Kevin
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 02:44 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Doing ok. Getting ready for a job interview tomorrow.

Kevin


Good luck!!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 03:38 AM
Thanks.

Kevin
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 02:55 PM
Hi Kevin,

How did the interview go? Hopefully great! How are you doing otherwise?

Kev,

If you get a chance could you please hop over to my thread? I posted again with H writing back to our D, finally!

Thanks!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 03:26 PM
Lost41,

I will be over there shortly. The job interview is later today. It will be a phone interview since the person hiring is in Charlotte NC.

I'm doing ok. Just wondering if there is a way to get my W to go to Retrouvaille. We have a session coming up in Forth Worth in October and January.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 03:31 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Just wondering if there is a way to get my W to go to Retrouvaille. We have a session coming up in Forth Worth in October and January.
Kevin


In the words of Chef Ramsey "YOU DONKEY!!!"

Seriously dude!?! The ONLY way you could get your WAW to Retro would be with Chloroform and Duck Tape. Unless you never want to see your girls again I suggest you just STOP thinking about her all together.
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 05:05 PM
Kevin,

What kind of session? Does it involve your W?
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 05:14 PM
The job interview is later today. It will be a phone interview since the person hiring is in Charlotte NC.

I'm doing ok. Just wondering if there is a way to get my W to go to Retrouvaille. We have a session coming up in Forth Worth in October and January.


Lets break this down... you have a job interview later on this afternoon, a phone interview no less, and right now your thoughts are focused and you are wondering if you can figure out a way to get your W to go to Retrouvaille with you? Does that make any sense at all?

Phone interviews are often more difficult than face to face interviews. Instead of allowing your W to fill your headspace AGAIN when you should be focusing on YOU and YOUR future and getting a better job, it seems we are back to square 1.

What sort of research have you done on how to kick butt on a phone interview? Do you have all your materials ready for the phone interview? Have you created an outline of questions to ask, what you can bring to the company in terms of achievements and not just your stock/canned answers? Do you know the ins and outs of the company you are being interviewed by?

There are thousands of sites and articles on the Internet about the "new" way to interview via the phone or online. Its a whole different animal. Instead of looking up dates for Retrouvaille and wondering how you can rope your very staunch WAS to go, why not use the next few hours for preparation so you can ace this interview for YOU and YOUR FUTURE.

Like I said before - you are scared of any progress you make. You project a bit of detachement and it seems like you start to "get it" then you back away and return to your old habbits. You are afraid to detach. You know how, you know what to do but you just are too fearful and that will get you nowhere.

Use the next few hours in a wise fashion for YOU. Good luck w/the interview.
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 07:40 PM
Good luck in your interview. You certainly could use some good news.

I've read this whole thing and I should just shut up and move on, but this is like watching a train wreck. I just can't seem to look away. So here it goes and I am not doing this to be a jerk. If I ever behave as you are I hope that someone will come along and shake the hell out of me until they get my attention. So this is my attempt to really reach you.

Let's look rationally at your situation. Your wife is sleeping with other men and finds all interaction with you as disgusting. She loathes you. She has no respect for her marriage or for you as her husband (or as a person really). She is going to divorce you and probably try to ruin you financially. Why? Because she can and you do things like that to people you despise. And you will probably help her do it just so you can be in her space a little while longer. And all the while you will be maintaining magical thinking that if you just say or do the right things she will come running back into your arms and reconcile. That might be the way it works on Bravo, but it isn’t likely to happen here in real life.

You know I do feel for you. It can't be easy living in your headspace.
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 07:53 PM
Esox, it has all been said before.
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 07:56 PM
alive,

I know, I just thought . . . maybe . . . just maybe . . . this time . . . it just might . . .
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 08:05 PM
Prayer, faith, change, and patience.

When put together, there isn't much that can stop it.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 08:08 PM
But you dont change. You pray, you have faith.. I am not so sure about the patience part but there is NO change. Any tiny glimmer of change quickly reverts you back to your old ways.

What did you do to prepare for the interview?
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 08:17 PM
You know, Kevin specifically asked for only positive feedback and I think we should respect that.

It is a bit dysfunctional to keep posted the same stuff on here and expecting a different outcome.

I think we should see what Kevin figures out when left to his own devices.

And seriously, how's he ever going to feel respected coming here?

Consider me a walkaway poster, I want out of this unhealthy dynamic. wink
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 08:18 PM
There is nothing wrong with prayer and faith. It is when you think you know what God wants for you, and you are insistent upon imposing your will on God, now that's a problem. When you continue to pray for what you want, and you continue to have faith that God will do what you want, you really aren’t submitting to God’s will. You are using prayer as a wish machine. You perhaps should have faith that God knows what you need and he will see to it that you get it.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 09:13 PM
Quote:
Kevin needs to hear one thing. IT IS OVER, Kevin. She isn't coming back.


This from Gucci on Orich's thread. Since his is locked up. I will respond here. Ye of little faith... It isn't over. The reconciliation process is only beginning. Rejoice ministries says that we who continue to have faith and pray and stand when nobody else believes, we will look peculiar to those people. But when the reconcilation is complete, we will give all praise and glory to God.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 09:15 PM
Quote:
There is nothing wrong with prayer and faith. It is when you think you know what God wants for you, and you are insistent upon imposing your will on God, now that's a problem. When you continue to pray for what you want, and you continue to have faith that God will do what you want, you really aren’t submitting to God’s will. You are using prayer as a wish machine. You perhaps should have faith that God knows what you need and he will see to it that you get it.


Not that I want to get back into this because I don't. But God created M and said he hates D. Therefore we know that His will is for our M's to succeed. And I do ask His will be done, not mine after I ask for my M to be restored.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 09:19 PM
Quote:
But you dont change. You pray, you have faith.. I am not so sure about the patience part but there is NO change. Any tiny glimmer of change quickly reverts you back to your old ways.

What did you do to prepare for the interview?


Sure I have changed. I respect my W's boundaries now. I don't pester her. I do things for myself without asking her for any kind of help. I take care of myself. I get bored and lonely at nights when I don't have the kids. Big deal. Who doesn't?

I think if you truly love someone, you will always miss them. In this case W.

Oh, to prepare for the interview that I have not yet had today, I mainly talked to my BIL who got me set up with it. He gave me a lot of good info.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 09:27 PM
I think she was referring to the "Retrouvaille" part.
Posted By: june72 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 10:15 PM
Kevin,
I am the worst with anything religious. But didn't God give people free will to do what ever they wanted. So therefore your wife can indeed leave you?
IDK, I pray for strength to handle things or my sons' health but never for a specific thing. Like even when my Dad was dying- I didn't pray he would recover. I just prayed that he not suffer much.
Again I am far from an expert.
Not sure if I am understanding rejoice minstries mantra...

Anyhow-good luck on the intereview. I mean- I KNOW you are going to do a great job.

Also, positive words, you seem to be a loving dad. smile
Posted By: Sara Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 10:32 PM
My two cents. Kevin is not the only person here using faith and prayer to try to heal his marriage. But he is the only one who gets criticized for it. There are many different belief systems out there, and we are entitled to believe the one we have chosen. If he falls off the wagon and says ugly things to his wife, then yes, give him a 2X4. But if you don't buy his beliefs, you should move on to a different thread. He has a right.
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 10:34 PM
Sara- Aaaarg, I told myself and posted that I would not be on this thread anymore but you got me. This is NOT about religion. It is about how he uses it to keep him from TCB.

Let's please try to recognize the distinction.

That's it...God help me, I've got to stay off of this thread... grin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 10:41 PM
Kev,

Having just traveled back, I am not even going to go back and read on your thread. I am going to call around 8 and you are going to update me on what has happened, changed or improved since we talked last week.

No posting, no nothing - just give it to me straight.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 11:16 PM
KJ,

My dad is going to be here shortly coming in from out of state. Is there any way we can maybe do this phone call on Saturday?

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/20/09 11:19 PM
How shortly? You could call right now.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 02:41 AM
For everyone's info - Kev and I talked. Will be checking back with him Saturday.
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 03:06 AM
Wifey,

You're good to be hanging in there w/Kev.

I wish him all the best, but can't be involved with this right now.

Blessings,

Stacy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 02:25 PM
Thanks KJ.

Today is Friday. My dad got in last night. W came over to drop some stuff off for D11 but would not come up to the apartment since she knew my dad was there and she knows how he feels about her actions. The girls were excited to see their grandpa.

Tonight me and him will be going to the Cowboys preseason game and checking out the new stadium. My dad says he wants to get some barbq and mexican food while here. So I will figure out 2 good places to take him. It is nice having him visit. It gets lonely when W and kids aren't there. Well, its been lonely without W for a while. But it is really empty when the kids are with her as well.

This morning W wanted to talk to me on the phone and was basically griping me out for not remembering that the kids had a pizza party and school carnival today at the rec center. She told me to let her know if I was going to be able to give them money or not and if not she would have her mom drop by with money. I said I have it covered and they will have money. Thanks for letting me know. I kept my cool the entire time. Apparently my girls had been texting her since 6:15 this morning because we had quite a thunderstorm come through. It woke both of my girls up. They were kind of frightened by it. It was a pretty strong storm and the power was out for a while.

At least it is Friday.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 02:31 PM
How did the interview go?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 02:33 PM
Hi VD,

I never had it. Apparently the lady who is supposed to interview me was in meetings all day yesterday. So I called and left a voice mail asking her to let me know when would be a good time to talk. I haven't heard back. This is so informal. Basically she wanted me to call her and talk about the job when ever I could. lol.

I guess we will see if I hear from her today.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 03:09 PM
My girls have their first counseling appointment on Wednesday at 6:30pm.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 03:49 PM
W got mad at me this morning and told me thanks for the warning on the C. I didn't respond. I have already told her previously that they needed to go back to C and she agreed but said she would not help out financially right now. Fine. I took it upon myself and set it up. Now she is mad I didn't give her more warning. I had also asked her about this new C. She did not respond previously. As far as I could tell, it was on me to just go ahead and take care of it. Now she isn't happy.

At least the girls will be getting help though regardless of how W feels about anything.

The C wants to see me and the girls the first session. She would also like to see W. I don't know if W will come. But I told her she is welcomed to. I haven't heard back on that either. But I also know that W is busy this morning.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 04:16 PM
W is offering to pay half now for every other week sessions with the C. She told me I didn't ask her. I said yes I did and that I had been told she can't help right now. She then told me she can't help with every week. So ok, she wants to help with every other week which is what I am signing them up for right now. Thats fine. I will let her pay for half.

That helps out.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 04:30 PM
Now W is mad that the C sessions are starting on her Wednesdays with the girls. So I said I will switch that after this initial Wednesday. I asked if she was going to join us. She said she guesses she doesn't have a choice this wednesday since it is her day with them. Can't she put anything aside for them? Geez.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 04:33 PM
She was worried that I was taking them to the C that she thinks I am seeing and that she doesn't think that C has done a bang up job on me. I said other than the one setback I have had, I think I am doing better, but I guess it is for others to decide. She doesn't know that I go see my priest on Mondays. She does know that I am going to AA meetings.

Either way, anything I am doing appears to be not impressing her. Not that I am trying to. But I didn't realize she was still looking down on me. But I guess that is to be expected considering the weekend a couple of weeks ago. But this past weekend was such a good weekend, I thought that maybe she for the weekend had seen me in a bit of a different light. I guess not. I'm still putting my legos together one peice at a time.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 04:59 PM
This seems to be creating more tension with W. She wanted to know what her credentials were. All I know is that she came recommended to me and that she will work on a scale with us. She is an LPC Intern and is a Christian C. I have no idea what she is going to say or exactly what her method will be. She said that she prefers to work with all of us together starting out and then focus on the kids. Thats at least what she told me on the phone this morning.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 05:09 PM
Does this ever get any easier?

<Sigh>

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 05:12 PM
D11 sent me a text saying she hates today and likes today. I told her to just try and like today. She said ok, she will try.

The girls constantly bicker back and forth. I am hoping the C will help with that.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 05:25 PM
Any advice?

Kevin
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 05:35 PM
I can understand why W would want to know the C's credentials. So, call and find out.

As far as the bickering goes, you'd better get used to it! I have a feeling that it's just beginning, at that age. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with your situation.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 06:38 PM
So counting what works and doesn't. Drinking and arguing with her about the van was obviously bad.

Telling her how great she did with her purchase and shopping together with the kids and being light hearted and non judgemental and letting things slide off my back worked really well.

Going forward with the C and a new one at that seemed to create tension.

Not sure if she considers me going to AA to be weak or if that is a good thing in her mind. Not that it matters. When I have mentioned it, she hasn't said anything one way or the other.

She hasn't refiled for D yet, but I also happen to know that she has been very busy. We will see if that happens next week. I pray that it does not.

One lego goes on, then it seems to come off. Then back on again, then back off again.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 06:45 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
So counting what works and doesn't. Drinking and arguing with her about the van was obviously bad.

Telling her how great she did with her purchase and shopping together with the kids and being light hearted and non judgemental and letting things slide off my back worked really well.

Going forward with the C and a new one at that seemed to create tension.

Not sure if she considers me going to AA to be weak or if that is a good thing in her mind. Not that it matters. When I have mentioned it, she hasn't said anything one way or the other.

She hasn't refiled for D yet, but I also happen to know that she has been very busy. We will see if that happens next week. I pray that it does not.

One lego goes on, then it seems to come off. Then back on again, then back off again.

Kevin


Kevin you SEEMED to be doing a little better, then we get this post...WORK ON YOU WITHOUT CONSIDERING HOW IT COULD AFFECT YOU R...
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 08:58 PM
Making progress my man. Just trying to do a little bit of what Stuck did. Take down what things work and what things don't work. Then start applying more of what works and backing off of what does not work.

Unlike what many want on here, I am not walking away from my W and forgetting she exists. I don't believe in doing that. And I won't. But I will keep seeing what is positive and what is not and taking note.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 09:06 PM
Quote:
Unlike what many want on here, I am not walking away from my W and forgetting she exists.


I don't understand this.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 09:09 PM
Everyone wants me to forget about her and insists my M is over. Move on I am told. Detach. Detach yes. But I'm not going to move on and not try and continue to see what works and doesn't work.

Thats all.

Kevin
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 09:13 PM
Kevin, if you think people want you to walk away, and pretend she doesn't exist, you are not reading right.

They are trying to tell you, though you consistently don't want to hear it (don't ask why I am typing this) that it would be very helpful for you, and your chances of saving your M, to detach your emotions from her every action. To move your every day focus to you, and off of her. To not analyze every word she says, and everything she does.

What you have insisted on doing is almost (and I will only say almost, since there is an exception for every rule) certainly chasing her away. And every day you chase is reducing the chance that she will ever come back.

Praying and faith are excellent tools. But you also need to do the best that you can do. Have you heard the story of the guy on the roof in a flood? He prayed for God to save him. A man in a boat came, and he sent him away... "God will save me." Later a helicopter came, and he sent them away... "God will save me." Well, he died on that roof, and went to see God in person, and asked, "Why didn't you save me?" "I sent a boat, and a helicopter, what did you want?"

The path to where you need to end up may not be the path you think you need to take. Just give it some thought. If nothing else, I would suggest that you really, really back off for a while. See what happens. You might be surprised. Sometimes the best action is no action.
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 09:15 PM
I think people may be trying to tell you that your marriage is over if you keep following your current path. Kevin, a lot of these people have been down the same road. You don't have to take everything they say as absolute truth, but it sure wouldn't hurt to listen.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 09:20 PM
I have backed off. I am continuing to stay backed off.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 09:21 PM
Originally Posted By: Virtually_Handsome
Have you heard the story of the guy on the roof in a flood? He prayed for God to save him. A man in a boat came, and he sent him away... "God will save me." Later a helicopter came, and he sent them away... "God will save me." Well, he died on that roof, and went to see God in person, and asked, "Why didn't you save me?" "I sent a boat, and a helicopter, what did you want?"


Yes. He has. I posted it months ago along with 10 others. Not only would Kevin have drowned, but the 2 people in the boat and the helicopter would have jumped in as well.
Posted By: davidswife Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 09:22 PM
Jeff,

The story about the boat and the helicopter has been posted to Kevin at least ten times.

Just so you know.

Stacy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 09:22 PM
Quote:
Not only would Kevin have drowned, but the 2 people in the boat and the helicopter would have jumped in as well.


Now that is not nice. I would have taken the first option out of there to get out of the flood. I may be hopelessly in love, but I value my life to. lol.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 09:25 PM
I'm glad u caught that humor. wink

But seriously. Keep on giving her the space and time she has been asking for and you never know what could change.

PMA
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/21/09 09:30 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
hopelessly...


Now that is up to you and how much you RESPECT both YOU and your WAW's BOUNDARIES.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/22/09 05:25 AM
Quote:
Keep on giving her the space and time she has been asking for and you never know what could change.


I am. She has all the space in the world she wants from me except unless it has directly to do with the kids. It turns out she wanted me and the girls to come over for breakfast Monday morning the first day of school because she didn't trust how I would have them dressed. Nice. Thanks. We bought them all new clothes and they have to be uniform clothes and she didn't trust me? Give me a break. How incompetent does she think I am?

I went to the Cowboys first preseason game in the new stadium tonight with my dad. The stadium is fantastic. 1.2 billion dollars. And let me tell you, wow. I'm impressed. I took a picture of the inside field with the Cowboys playing on it and my first reaction was to send it to my W which is what I have always done in the past. But then I stopped myself because I knew that was not the thing to do. So I just kept it for myself.

Tomorrow is some good eatin barbq and we get the girls at 2pm for the rest of the day and evening. We will figure out something to do with them. They are very excited to have their grandpa in town for a couple of days.

I have to say it is really nice having him here. And then next weekend FaithfulH and Tomato will be here. That will be fun.

Kevin
Posted By: wolverine1997 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/22/09 05:31 AM
Fellow Cowboy fan here. Whats the deal with the scoreboard hanging so low? This will be a problem for punters all season long.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/22/09 05:47 AM
Hi Wolverine1997,

They are actually going to be lifting up the big jumbotron in October. I did see that punt that hit the jumbotron. That was amazing that he got it up in the air that high. I guess they didn't completely calculate the height just right.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/23/09 05:02 AM
Today I went and had to take care of my car for a good portion of the first part of the day. Then me and my dad went and ate some great barbq. Then I went to pick up my girls from W's house. As she was bringing things over to the trunk of my car for my girls to bring over, she griped at me for not having my trunk cleaned out. I was still able to fit everything in there just fine. I didn't say anything when she griped at me. I was just quiet and finished putting things in the trunk.

Later I spoke with KJ aka the wifey for a while on the phone. I updated her with my weekend and she updated me with her weekend. It was a good phone call.

After that we took my girls swimming. Then we took them out to eat at a mexican resturant and then for ice cream. The girls bicker constantly back and forth and I will admit it is getting difficult to control that between them. I am hoping the C can help them out as well as me for how to better control that between them.

Tomorrow is mass. My dad will be going with me and the girls. He is going to try and talk to the girls through the mass to see if he can help give them a better understanding of it as I myself am still learning this mass and everything about it.

This is shaping up to be a busy week. School starts back Monday. Then Monday after work I meet with my priest and then D11 has choir. She made it for the Childrens Choir of Greater Dallas. Then Tuesday D7 has dance class. Then Wednesday they have C. Somewhere in there I need to get AA. My dad heads back to Charlotte NC on Wednesday.

W and my dad have avoided each other. He is not impressed with her choice of lifestyle. To him it doesn't matter what mistakes were made in the M by either of us. And he knows everything. He blames her for not putting the family first regardless. Remember, he is a traditional catholic. No excuse for her seeking other men and not remaining faithful to the M, period according to him. So they are obviously at odds. He loves her but will not condone her current actions and she knows it. She thinks he doesn't like her. She doesn't seem to get that it is her actions he doesn't like, not her. He told her he does love her and looks forward to the day when she returns to her true H a while back. That didn't go over well with her back then. So neither has had contact with the other since then.

Well, time to call it a night. Audios. Sweet dreams. Say your prayers.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/23/09 08:00 PM
Today the kids, my dad and I all went to mass. Then we went and had pizza for lunch. From there we went to drop D11 off at W's house so W could take her shopping for a few more things. While there me and W discussed the first day of school and activities for the kids. The conversation went fine. She asked about the Cowboys stadium and I told her all about that.

Then W's step dad in law showed up and said hi to me and hugged me and asked how I had been doing. He was very nice. He still likes me. Just W's mom hates me.

All in all it went fine. Then my dad and I and D7 headed back to my apartment where I marinated some meat to grill out for dinner. We will probably take D7 to the pool in a bit.

I know I have pretty much been abandoned on here. But I am going to post anyways as it is an outlet for me.

Kevin
Posted By: BobbiJo Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/23/09 08:07 PM
Kevin I am glad things are going well. Sometimes posting slows down when there is no 'drama' or 'emergency' but that is a good thing too...
Posted By: Sara Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/23/09 11:52 PM
Quote:
I know I have pretty much been abandoned on here. But I am going to post anyways as it is an outlet for me.


Kevin, new people happen onto these threads every day. Keep writing and new people will answer. And maybe they will agree with the last group, and maybe they will have different ideas. But you need to keep working to be the best you that you can be. Everything else will fall into place.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 03:21 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Today the kids, my dad and I all went to mass. Then we went and had pizza for lunch. From there we went to drop D11 off at W's house so W could take her shopping for a few more things. While there me and W discussed the first day of school and activities for the kids. The conversation went fine. She asked about the Cowboys stadium and I told her all about that.

Then W's step dad in law showed up and said hi to me and hugged me and asked how I had been doing. He was very nice. He still likes me. Just W's mom hates me.

All in all it went fine. Then my dad and I and D7 headed back to my apartment where I marinated some meat to grill out for dinner. We will probably take D7 to the pool in a bit.

I know I have pretty much been abandoned on here. But I am going to post anyways as it is an outlet for me.

Kevin


What is it you expect K4? You said you only "want positive support from now on from people who agree with you" and no one can disagree with you or your goals.

You are incapable of distinguishing from detaching and giving up[/b] so there is no point in advising you to do anything b/c all you want is advice on getting your wife back, and even if that is possible,[b] it'd be by detaching! Then You SAY you "get it", but you say lots of things. But what you DO, is NOT detachment by a long shot.

I have no idea what you think people who posted to you several times a week for months, are supposed to say now, about you marinating your steak...."good job!" I love meat....?? Is that your GAL?

On the other hand, I sure as heck don't want to debate theology with you, nor do I want a long LONG post from you on your "belief du jour" about m, or "real love, vs need" wherein you post what someone else (like me! for instance) [i]told you [/i]months ago, or something you read somewhere BUT which you don't act on, and you post it as if you are teaching US SOMETHING YOU LEARNED, AND ARE PRACTICING....but the thing is, you still pursue, you still obsess about your w, and you still note everything your w does or says or what you think she means, and...

Oops, there I go, Not being "positive"....so if this is "abandoning" you, then so be it. You told us you only want us tell you how right you are. If we don't think you are right, or accurate, what's to say?

Even when you DID want real advice, you rarely took it and when it came to the big stuff, you never did. How many MONTHS has it been that we all pleaded with you to get help for your poor d's, and now, maybe, you say you have "set it up" so that sometime soon it might happen....but all I know is I' ve heard way more about your w's reaction to it and who will pay for it....than anything good or positive about it.

This is NOT a 2 x 4. It's an answer to a comment and really, you THINK you know why people are no longer posting to you. But you don't. Maybe, you should say "thanks so much!" to the many many people here who posted to you so often, SO OFTEN for SO LONG, only to have you noq play this victim thing??....while you repeat the same behavior again.

You have gotten more attention for longer than anyone I know on this site. So please don't complain about "being abandoned". tired It's not becoming.


Now I really have to go.

Good luck,
j







Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 12:56 PM
Quote:
What is it you expect K4? You said you only "want positive support from now on from people who agree with you" and no one can disagree with you or your goals.


I don't mind being disagreed with. I just don't want to be attacked. I am fine with constructive critisizm.

Quote:
You told us you only want us tell you how right you are. If we don't think you are right, or accurate, what's to say?


No. I don't mind being told I am wrong.

Quote:
Maybe, you should say "thanks so much!" to the many many people here who posted to you so often, SO OFTEN for SO LONG, only to have you noq play this victim thing??....while you repeat the same behavior again.


I do want to thank everyone who has taken the time to post to me. I have more than a books worth of information that is very valuable. Thank you all.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 01:02 PM
Last night W brought over D11 after more school shopping. I had been grilling out some chicken. W brought in stuff. W and D11 got me a Dallas Cowboys shirt. W said it was from the girls to me. W also bought a water filter for my apartment since my girls don't like tap water and she put that together. She told me that she knows I am probably not impressed with that. I said it is fine.

I offered W a peice of meat and she gladly excepted and ate it. She then told the girls good bye and left after going through the school stuff.

This morning I dropped off the girls at W's house so I could take my car to the mechanic to have work done on it. She is taking them to their first day of school. I told the girls I love them and I hope they both have a good first day and I am looking forward to hearing all about it tonight.

I think it is difficult for me to detach and at the same time not think about her. I think about her because I pray for us and I keep hope alive. So that makes it harder to detach for me.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 02:01 PM
Kevin,
Been lurking on your thread for a while. I'll admit to have not read it all as I'm trying to limit my time on DB. One piece of advice, get over-involved with your kids. Do every thing you are doing and double it. Today is their first day at school. Go have lunch with them if you can. Introduce yourself to their teacher's. Talk to the school councilor. Know each one of their friends. Its crunch time. Your kids need you now more than ever. You don't have time to fix something that can not be fixed at this time. Focus on leading your family - not controlling it.

Not sure if I wrote that for you or me :-).

BTY - You are picking up every morsel you W lays out and gobbling them up like candy.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 02:13 PM
Hi C-Bart,

I can do that with D7 later on this week. My car is in the shop today. I can't do that with D11 as she does not want to be embarrassed. She specifically asked that we do not have anything to do with her inside the school.

I joked around with her some about it, but said that she would just be dropped off in front then.

She is worried about her "reputation" being ruined. lol. She started 6th grade in middle school today. D7 however does want me to come meet her teacher and likes it when I have lunch with her.

As far as picking up each morsel and eating it like candy... I'm not sure how. I know where W stands with everything. I'm no fool to where she is right now. I just do what I am supposed to do. I am going to be very involved with the kids. This week is going to be very busy for me with them and their after school activities.

Of course I had some trouble sleeping last night and I am tired from it today.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 03:47 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc


This is NOT a 2 x 4. It's an answer to a comment and really, you THINK you know why people are no longer posting to you. But you don't. Maybe, you should say "thanks so much!" to the many many people here who posted to you so often, SO OFTEN for SO LONG, only to have you noq play this victim thing??....while you repeat the same behavior again.

You have gotten more attention for longer than anyone I know on this site. So please don't complain about "being abandoned". tired It's not becoming.



Quote:
Wifey,

You're good to be hanging in there w/Kev.

I wish him all the best, but can't be involved with this right now.

Blessings,

Stacy


Please, for your sanity and for my mine, stop reading and posting to Kevin.

I know you have reached out, tried and gotten frustrated. I know you truly tried to help him.

I do not find your posts to be particularly helpful any more. They are dripping with frustration and bordering on mean.

I mean really, after castigating him for several paragraphs, 25yrs says this isn't a 2x4. Then, after Stacy says she can't be involved any more she chimes in about the story of the man on the roof during the storm. It isn't good for either of you and obviously isn't getting through.

If what you are doing isn't working you are supposed to do something different. It doesn't just apply to M's.

Butterfly wings are extremely delicate. We all spread our wings at a different pace.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 04:51 PM
Wifey,

thanks for sharing that kind hearted post with us, wifey. I am sure it was not meant to sound smug or condescending, or critical and hypocritcal all at the same time, like the way you blasted cg, who has also posted here for months, (not weeks), with detailed lists of suggestions that were incredibly time consuming and almost completely ignored.

Unlike you, who shows up late at the party and tells the rest of us how to do it "right", why not stick around for MONTHS POSTING, not merely "lurking" til you can come in and blast US and then "show us how it is done" only to repeat to K4, what WE said months ago, and NOT more kindly than we did then btw....

and practice what you preach about the 2 x 4 s. OMG you have such double standards!

We all have our tales to tell and had kids in the hospital last week, or deaths to deal with, or CG's horrible health problems that make K4's look like middle school problems, and then to come and see k4 whine about "Being abandoned" after Publicly saying he only wants positive feedback (his words) but privately asking ME to not give up on him. well K4, I have to, but Yeah I thought you needed an explanation for my not posting here, and I stand by it!

But again, YOUR message wifey could have left out 2/3 of it to get YOUR "important" message across. You still owe CG an apology. I doubt she's waiting for one. You hurl out the 2 x 4's and then pretend to have done it lovingly. Please... Be here, in 8 months posting to kevin at least 4 times a week and then tell everyone how to do it "right". Actually that would still be obnoxious.

Do YOU feel better now? I think that's what your goal was. Hope it worked.
The only thing you are correct in is that it IS frustrating to watch K4 go in circles, and NOT help his d's. He has, if it's true, (b/c you have hidden things in the past k4) "set up" appointments for his d's soon...okay well

MY kids got appointments within a week of the bomb, and I didnt' ask h for any input really. (Why would the WAS want to admit there might be a problem? Why would I wait for permission to help my d's pain?) I just dealt with it alone just like I dealt with their nightmares and tears....

and now h is back home and feels pain and shame and is working hard on his Rs with the girls, and they are STILL getting c! Why not? Their well being always came before mine, b/c they are inextricably linked.
it's the only thing I give a crap about in this thread now, is those girls.

I hope k4's girls somehow get thru this without HIS pain ruling their lives.

And k4, yes my d is out of the hospital, as you MAY know, (from the other threads.)
Wifey, again I would suggest you practice what you preach. Don't tell others not to give 2 x 4's while you doing that exact thing to them. It's just hypocritical and self righteous, and I was clearly not going to post here anymore anyhow so it was also totally unecessary. Ever wonder why you do this to so many women?

j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 05:24 PM
25,

In the past, I had quit going to C and AA earlier on and did not mention it. I can't deny that. I wasn't comfortable in either situation whether it was right or wrong. And yes, I did ask you privately to not give up on me earlier on.

Granted I have posted my own thoughts here way to often when it comes to my W. But honestly, if you look at where I was starting out versus now, in a lot of ways I am doing better. When I started out I could not stop the R talk with W. I was not eating and I was not getting by mentally and emotionally. I was falling to peices at every step of the way. I was pursuing W heavily. I'm not doing those things anymore. Yes, I have taken a long time to make some progress. But I have made some progress although some would want to disagree.

I am in a much healthier state of mind now. Had it not been for everyone on this site, I will be honest... I was borderline suicide because I was so devastated by everything. I even called a suicide hotline one night in Florida. I hate to admit that, but its true. I no longer am anywhere near that anymore. I have long since come back from being that far down in depression. I am doing very well with my girls. They do REALLY have an appointment with the C on Wednesday. I will be more than happy to talk about it after. I don't pursue W anymore. When I dropped my girls off this morning, I did not go into the house. I simply waited out in the car until W let them in. When she comes over I am hospitable, but I keep my emotions in check. Of course it is hard after she leaves. I do have real feelings. But I don't show them when she is around.

True I think about W and I post here when I am. But I am still living life and doing what I have to. I go to different AA meetings because there isn't one group that meets every night of the week. Each night is a different section of the 12 step program and sometimes in different locations.

Do I want her back? Yes I do. Do I know anything is possible with God? Yes I do, although I may grow weary at times. I think that is normal.

FaithfulH would lose faith at times and would want to quit. I do to, but then I am reminded not to and to keep praying for W and M restoration through rejoice ministries.

25, I am very grateful for everyone taking the time and resources to post to me. And I have taken a lot of advice and applied it. But I can't take every single persons advice and do it all at once. It takes time.

Wifey was just saying if it doesn't appear to be working, try something different or not post. Thats all. She wasn't attacking anyone.

And if people want to abandon or leave or whatever, that is ok to. I understand. I have been given a ton of helpful advice and I have so much to use and apply and I apply bits and peices here and there.

Sure, maybe my beliefs are different than others as far as a M being a one time shot and being a covenant, etc. Thats ok. I stand by them. And maybe I refuse to believe a M is dead just because it looks that way to the human eye. And maybe people think I shouldn't pray for M restoration because maybe it isn't Gods will. Ok, fine. I disagree, but that is ok. What really brought me back to that was rejoice ministries. Because I was ready to give up and walk away to knowing in my heart it was wrong. But now I have come back to stand for my M regardless of what the circumstances look like. And I will keep praying for it.

I let W live her own life. Ya, sure, it hurts when she is with OM. Some say I shouldn't let it bother me by detaching. But I can't just completely remove feelings like that. But I don't interfere with it. I just let her live how she wants and I do what I have to.

I think CG has also offered wonderful resources. And yes, I can clearly admit that other people have health problems that far out weigh my situation. I know that and admit that. It doesn't change the fact that I still have feelings for my W and M. I have a problem right now with my right leg due to injuring my back that causes me a lot of sharp pain that has not gone away. It hurts physically. But I just live with it. My focus is on my M restoration and not my leg hurting.

I'm glad your D is out of the hospital and doing better. And no, I had not read that she was in the hospital.

I don't know where all you post. I just know that some threads I read you have also posted on them.

I don't think Charlyne on rejoice ministries ever completely detached to where she had no emotions while praying for M restoration.

But I am doing a lot better than where I was when I started out on this thread. Of course I still have more to do. And yes I move slower than others at getting there.

But Wifey wasn't trying to be mean. She was just noticing the frusturation of some and saying better to not post if frusturated.

I will gladly take constructive critisizm and positive feedback. I think that sometimes the 2x4's are like machines on here. But thats just me. If someone wants to post a 2x4, fine. But it almost seems like they are sitting back ready to whack at any thought I have that is not 100% in the book.

FaithfulH used rejoice ministries and DB. He used a combination of both. He didn't fully subscribe to all of one or the other. There were times he didn't take advice from here. And there were times he did. He applied what worked for him and his sitch.

For what its worth,

Kevin
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 05:25 PM
holy cow 25 ....Let's let k4d's thread be used for him finding himself and making advances for himself and not for this kinda crap. t'would be nice.

I will leave it up to the host however. maybe he likes the female in fighting. who knows?

T
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 05:50 PM
25,

If you notice, many times when I run across a thread that you have posted on, I tell that person to listen to what you have to say because I think your knowledge, wisdom, and experiance is so invaluable and can help so many people. If I didn't think so much of what you can do to help people, I wouldn't say that to them or ask you if you can help someone that is struggling.

I admit that I am not perfect and I have had my fair share of setbacks. But I think you offer an entire world of help to people who really need it and I am glad you are a poster on DB. I am very glad that your M has been restored or at least is on a very good track to be. I am glad you have figured things out in your life. I am always amazed when I read your stories of different life examples that you give to people. I sit there and think wow, this person has really experianced a lot of different things and can help so many people. And I am glad that you have a heart to help so many people. That says a lot about you.

I am sorry that I have frusturated you. It seems like I have that ability according to my W and others. It isn't deliberate. It just seems to be a big thing I am continuing to have to work on.

I am grateful to everyone on here. Some move through things faster than others. Some have more setbacks than others. Some have more difficult circumstances than others. Either way, we all have feelings of some sort and all want the same goal for the most part. Some just get there faster than others and I am glad when they do. There is nothing better or more rewarding than to have another M restored. In my opinion, that is the end goal or should be on this website. Some think the ultimate goal is to just be happy with yourself. And that is. But after a period of time, that can become empty if you really want to share your life with someone and especially your S.

The single life has never been a desire of mine and never will be. Sure I can go out and have fun and do things and I do. But ulimately coming home every night to an empty house is not going to be very rewarding after a while.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 05:55 PM
I stick by everything that 25 said. Those of us that have been year for almost a year feel the same way.

Kevin is right. He does owe his current mindset to 25 and others that cared enough to take the time to write LONG posts about what he SHOULD be doing. Those of you that have not been a part of Kevin's story from the very beginning should stay out of it. He knows how long this process has taken and is still taking.

The truths hurts. If Kevin wanted to have sunshine blown up his butt then he could have gone somewhere else.

I firmly believe Kevin is where he is today because of the wise words and advice he learned from 25 and others that took the time to write to him. It's so easy to come in after and judge. If he didnt want feedback then he should have not written on an OPEN website.

Just ask Kevin. He'd be glad to explain it for you.

PMA
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 05:57 PM
Quote:
I will leave it up to the host however. maybe he likes the female in fighting. who knows?


No. I am not interested in anyone fighting. This is supposed to be a support group. I don't believe Wifey was trying to stir anything at all. I believe she was just pointing out something that didn't appear to be working and suggested an alternative and she was just showing the post as an example.

I talked to Wifey on the phone after the post and so I know this was the case. Her intentions were good and I knew they were. We talked about a few different things and that was just one of the things we talked about. My question to Wifey was about what I had been posting. And she summed it up really good for me. She said there is no need to post every single thought that I have and maybe just focus on posting when I need advice. I thought that was really good.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 06:34 PM
I believe what Wifey said was just taken the wrong way or out of context. I happen to like KJ very much. She called me when I had a major setback and talked to me for a good while when I didn't think anyone should have any reason to talk to me.

Since then she has followed up with me on phone calls and really cares about me and my girls and how we are doing. She doesn't let me get away with things. She just simply approaches them from another angle.

Its nice having people that I can pick up the phone and call or that call me when I am down and out and by myself.

I also spoke to FaithfulH a couple of times and he also helps boost me.

Infact, FaithfulH and Tomato are coming down to Dallas this coming weekend and we are going to be hanging out together again and having a good time. I'm looking forward to that.

Yes I owe where I am today to many people such as 25, Wifey, FaithfulH, CG, DW, A&K, PMA, Tomato, VD, and even though he is kind of hard to take sometimes, lol, Stuck808 also. But also to the many other people that have posted to me and spent time helping me. I can't list them all, but I am sure grateful for them all. And those that no longer post on here as well.

Everyone has different approaches and they all help in their own ways. Some 2x4's are harder to take than others. I think everyone means well. I think that sometimes frusturation just sets in. Believe me, I am the most frusturated with my situation. I beat myself up a lot over the mistakes I make.

I have the hardest time not reflecting on mistakes I make and made. But you have to start building with one lego at a time. I have a couple of legos in place, but many more to go.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 06:40 PM
You sound good Kev. PMA Baby!!!

Keep it up!

PMA
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 06:56 PM
Thanks PMA,

I am.

Kevin
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 07:17 PM
"Butterfly wings are extremely delicate." - The Wifey


Wow!
Posted By: jon2911 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 08:07 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I also spoke to FaithfulH a couple of times and he also helps boost me.

Infact, FaithfulH and Tomato are coming down to Dallas this coming weekend and we are going to be hanging out together again and having a good time. I'm looking forward to that.


That sounds fun! I might need to join you guys. After this weekend I need it.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 08:09 PM
I just got an email from FaithfulH saying he won't be able to make it this weekend because of getting their house ready to sell. But we will get together later. I'm not sure if Tomato is coming or not yet. But if you want to get together, let me know. We can still hang out even if one or both of them can't make it.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 09:38 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Wifey,

thanks for sharing that kind hearted post with us, wifey. I am sure it was not meant to sound smug or condescending, or critical and hypocritcal all at the same time, like the way you blasted cg, who has also posted here for months, (not weeks), with detailed lists of suggestions that were incredibly time consuming and almost completely ignored.


Can the sarcasm. I know I hit a nerve. I call it like I see it. You were saying the same things over and over and over and he didn't change, yet you kept saying it.

Quote:
Unlike you, who shows up late at the party and tells the rest of us how to do it "right", why not stick around for MONTHS POSTING, not merely "lurking" til you can come in and blast US and then "show us how it is done" only to repeat to K4, what WE said months ago, and NOT more kindly than we did then btw....


I can only say that my "party" started a long time ago. What you were doing or saying wasn't working. Sorry you feel I wasn't as kindly.

Quote:
and practice what you preach about the 2 x 4 s. OMG you have such double standards!


I never said not to 2x4 him. If he needs it he gets it. I did say you were frustrated and needed to take a break.

Quote:
We all have our tales to tell and had kids in the hospital last week, or deaths to deal with, or CG's horrible health problems that make K4's look like middle school problems,


And you were all in my prayers for everything. It is horrible how life seems to pile up the problems some times.

Quote:
and then to come and see k4 whine about "Being abandoned" after Publicly saying he only wants positive feedback (his words) but privately asking ME to not give up on him. well K4, I have to, but Yeah I thought you needed an explanation for my not posting here, and I stand by it!


That is between you and him and I never directly addressed the whining. I go by my training - reward the good and do your best to ignore the bad, because even negative attention is a reward of attention.

Quote:
But again, YOUR message wifey could have left out 2/3 of it to get YOUR "important" message across. You still owe CG an apology. I doubt she's waiting for one.


I don't owe you the information, but I did apologize to CG and told her she was a lady of class and grace.

Quote:
You hurl out the 2 x 4's and then pretend to have done it lovingly. Please... Be here, in 8 months posting to kevin at least 4 times a week and then tell everyone how to do it "right". Actually that would still be obnoxious.


I'm sorry you feel that way.

I call it like I see it. All I said was take a break because you are frustrated and your posts, in a frustrated state, dripping with that frustration, were not helping him to change one bit. And they were obviously causing you distress.

Quote:
Do YOU feel better now? I think that's what your goal was. Hope it worked.


My goal? My goal? mind-reading? Dear, my goal was just to get everyone to stop, take a break, and move on in a constructive way.

What was being said was not helping. You could continue to do the same thing over and over. Or not.

Quote:
The only thing you are correct in is that it IS frustrating to watch K4 go in circles, and NOT help his d's. He has, if it's true, (b/c you have hidden things in the past k4) "set up" appointments for his d's soon...okay well

MY kids got appointments within a week of the bomb, and I didnt' ask h for any input really. (Why would the WAS want to admit there might be a problem? Why would I wait for permission to help my d's pain?) I just dealt with it alone just like I dealt with their nightmares and tears....

and now h is back home and feels pain and shame and is working hard on his Rs with the girls, and they are STILL getting c! Why not? Their well being always came before mine, b/c they are inextricably linked.
it's the only thing I give a crap about in this thread now, is those girls.


I agree with you wholeheartedly about the need for C for his d's and for himself.

Quote:
I hope k4's girls somehow get thru this without HIS pain ruling their lives.

And k4, yes my d is out of the hospital, as you MAY know, (from the other threads.)


I am so glad she is on the mend. Nothing ever scared me more than when my s was in the hospital.

Quote:
Wifey, again I would suggest you practice what you preach. Don't tell others not to give 2 x 4's while you doing that exact thing to them. It's just hypocritical and self righteous, and I was clearly not going to post here anymore anyhow so it was also totally unecessary.


Please re-read my posts and tell me where I said not to 2x4 him? The posts had gotten quite snarky and you were obviously short on patience.

Perhaps my communication is lacking here - but you needed to take a break. IF you tell someone to do A over and over and they don't do A, you can keep telling them to do A or just stop for a bit and get your bearings. Then you might be able to think about B or C. Or even make the decision not to say anything and let them flounder.

Also, it was not at all clear that you were not going to post here again because you and others have said it and then continued to post.

Quote:
Ever wonder why you do this to so many women?

j-


Hmmmmmm, so how many women have I done this to?
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/24/09 09:53 PM
Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
I stick by everything that 25 said. Those of us that have been year for almost a year feel the same way.

Kevin is right. He does owe his current mindset to 25 and others that cared enough to take the time to write LONG posts about what he SHOULD be doing. Those of you that have not been a part of Kevin's story from the very beginning should stay out of it. He knows how long this process has taken and is still taking.

The truths hurts. If Kevin wanted to have sunshine blown up his butt then he could have gone somewhere else.

I firmly believe Kevin is where he is today because of the wise words and advice he learned from 25 and others that took the time to write to him. It's so easy to come in after and judge. If he didnt want feedback then he should have not written on an OPEN website.

Just ask Kevin. He'd be glad to explain it for you.

PMA


PMA, my dear, no sunshine is blowing up anyone's butt. (Unless you swing that way and then, well, anyways)

I did not JUDGE anyone. I still don't. Kevin has a long way to go and he does have much to be thankful to all of the people that have shared their time and heart with him.

Sometimes people just need to take a step back. Remember the analogy about the see saw?
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/25/09 12:10 AM
"Reward the good and do your best to ignore the bad, because even negative attention is a reward of attention." - The Wifey


This is good stuff...I'm gonna remember this! Thanks.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/25/09 01:18 AM
Quote:
the only thing I give a crap about in this thread now, is those girls.


I know.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/25/09 02:59 AM
Come on kevin, seriously...how many times do I have to say it, "detachment does NOT mean giving up"?? I must have said this 100 times to you. You want to pretend that ALL the people here who tell you to let go, mean "give up" (and maybe SOME DO), but not all by a long shot...

You have to detach, and that is a fundamental truth you have not fully understood or practiced. I DO think that is a big diff between faithfulH and several others, AND I can tell you that it worked for me as well.

You haVe to get to the point where you know you are going to be alright no matter what, b/c God has something good for you coming around the corner NO MATTER WHAT YOUR WIFE, who has free will, CHOOSES TO DO...if you insist that God WILL restore your m no matter what, then you escape/avoid the responsibility for your own actions and taking charge of your life....and rather than getting into a debate about that, instead, let's just agree to disagree and get back to your d's...please....
j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/25/09 03:40 AM
No debate 25. I agree that I need to continue to make changes. I never said I didn't. Obviously if I stay a slimeball, God is never going to restore my M. The 2 go hand in hand.

Maybe I don't communicate things very well. But I am not in disagreement with you on changes. Trying to detach while still being mindful to pray for W and me is coming at a challenge for me. But I do not disagree with what you are saying.

I need to finish listening to my codependent no more audio cds.

As for my girls since that is what most are primarily concerned with, they are doing fine. They both had a good day their first day of school. Things went very smoothly for them. D11 had her first chior practice tonight with the Childrens Chior of Greater Dallas which she had to audition for and made it. They did really good.

D7's first dance class is tomorrow night. She is looking forward to it. They are both enjoying their grandpa here. He is really great with them.

Wednesday is the big C session for them. Thursday I have to go sign the title to our van over since W's new vehicle will be arriving. Friday the girls and me will figure out something fun to do. Saturday W gets them back. My plans are now canceled for Saturday so W was planning on my girls and her staying the night at W's best friends house. However, D11 hates going over there and wants to stay with me Saturday night instead. W told her I already had plans, and I did. But since I don't now, D11 is free to ask her mom if she can stay with me since she hates going over to W's friends house.

I don't know what else to say about my daughters at this time. It is definitely becoming difficult to keep there emotions at a healthy level. I'm sure glad they are starting C. Whether W joins in or not doesn't really matter to me. It is for the girls. As far as I can tell, W wants nothing to do with it after this first session. Thats cool. I will take care of it for the girls.

Why is it that God doesn't seem to bring S's back until the LBS is ready to live life without them? Maybe that is when the true change has finally occured and God says now you are ready.

25, I know that I will be ok on my own if she doesn't come back. It won't be as great a life as what it could be, but I will make it.

I'm not going to debate you on anything. I don't really disagree with you on most points. You are and have been like a teacher for me. For that I am grateful. I don't mean to frusturate you or anyone else on here. I am still moving forward and trying to adjust with applying peices of advice here and there. I just move slowly on some things.

Kevin

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/26/09 02:07 PM
Quote:
Kevin, I have nothing but empathy and affection for everyone here, especially you. However, you are telling me you understand and you don't. You really really don't.

Your anger relieves your pain temporarily. It has nothing to do with detaching. Perhaps anger can proceed detachment but since you are either angry OR overly invested in W, I don't think anger gets you there. Read other threads, read Thinkers thread, read Smileys thread, read my thread. Stop getting hung up on dating or morality or religious differences. NO one is telling you to give up or to date or to violate your religious convictions...just flippin' read about what works and what has led others to a place of peace and self-assuredness. I would bet everything I've got that your W will never truly come back to you unless you man the heck up and get this detachment thing for real. Maybe if she's really desperate and feels sorry for you, she'll come back to you and you can have THAT kind of jacked up relationship but really Kevin, don't you think God has called on you to go through this so you can have better???? Sorry to even throw in God because I am not religious but I get where you come from and if you could get the concepts within the context of your religion, I think there'd be more likelihood of change.

That's all I'm saying about that. I feel like an a** even trying. But I wish you luck.

From A&K on Orich's thread


I believe God has called on me to go through this for some reason. I think I know some of those reasons. I don't know all of them and I don't know what he has in store for later on. That is where trust and faith have to come in.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/26/09 06:24 PM
Kev,

Was yesterday your D's appt with C? If so how did it go?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/26/09 06:42 PM
VD,

The appointment is tonight at 6:30 central time. I will post tonight how it went after. W decided she will show up. Yesterday she wasn't sure if she was going to be going or not. She was more annoyed that it interfered with a church chior thing the girls have going on from 5:30 to 6:30. I told her I am doing this for the girls and this was the time available this week. She was annoyed.

Then she asked me to switch my own appointment from Mondays to another day because D11 has Dallas chior on Monday nights. The only other night available was Friday. So I did that. She was annoyed with that probably because it interferes with her happy hour. She gets the girls after work when I go to my thing with the priest and then I pick them up after on my weeks.

She did say I can have D11 this Saturday night since W and D7 will be staying the night at W's best friends house to watch best friends daughter and D11 hates going over there and my plans were canceled. Also I did not take D7 to dance last night because it was my dad's last night in town and so I rescheduled it for Saturday morning as a make up session. Originally she was annoyed with that but then asked me to take D7 saturday morning to which I agreed I would since I was the reason she wasn't going last night.

W is more annoyed at scheduling timings now. I'm just sitting back thinking get used to it. Not everyone lives by your schedule and you want this separation/divorce. Things are just going to be rosey for you. I didn't say any of that, was just thinking it.

She wants the girls C on my weeks, not hers. I don't think she truly has any interest in them being in C.

But yes, tonight is the night of the first appointment. Thanks for asking.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/26/09 06:57 PM
DOH!! I thought for a moment today was Thursday...Darn that means tomorrow isn't Friday.

Hope it goes well tonight.
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/26/09 07:09 PM
"W is more annoyed at scheduling timings now. I'm just sitting back thinking get used to it. Not everyone lives by your schedule and you want this separation/divorce. "


This is the best thing I've seen you post in a long time! I just wish you would have said it to her.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/26/09 07:28 PM
Quote:
This is the best thing I've seen you post in a long time! I just wish you would have said it to her.


I could already tell she was very annoyed. I wasn't trying to further annoy her. So I just kept it to myself. But she already knows. Her frusturation tells me that.

Kevin
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/26/09 07:32 PM
Her annoyance is her problem. She caused this. Really, I wasn't being a smart@ss, I think it is great that you feel this way.

Can you imagine what she is going to do whe she keeps pulling these stunts and you don't cave? She might start to respect her H again. I hope so.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/26/09 07:49 PM
I hope so to.

Thanks Esox,

Kevin
Posted By: jon2911 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/26/09 08:36 PM
Hang in there Kevin! I'm busy this weekend also, but let's definitely meet up sometime.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/26/09 08:49 PM
Sounds good John.

I will stay in touch.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/26/09 09:08 PM
Originally Posted By: Esox
"W is more annoyed at scheduling timings now. I'm just sitting back thinking get used to it. Not everyone lives by your schedule and you want this separation/divorce. "


This is the best thing I've seen you post in a long time! I just wish you would have said it to her.



I agree. It's time you start holding HER accountable for her actions. No more Mr. Nice Guy! Respectful Guy YES!!! Nice, Doormat Guy!!! H3LL!!! NO!!!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/27/09 04:15 AM
We had our C appointment tonight. The C did not talk to the kids tonight. She wanted to talk to me and W first. She will start with the kids at the next appointment.

During the time we talked to the C, of course the C asked if D was certain, and my W said yes and that she would be refiling again next week. I rolled my eyes. W said do you really have to roll your eyes at that? I said yes. Probably not the best DBing move.

Anyways this seemed more like a M counseling session. The C said she is pro marriage and that if we would like she can help us reconcile our M. She talked about her beliefs on M and we each discussed our beliefs etc. She also asked what our concerns were with the girls so we went into that as well.

During the discussion W said all the usual WAW mumbo jumbo. She doesn't like me. She isn't looking at anyone else right now. She just won't be with me etc etc etc blah blah blah.

The C said if we do decide to change our minds, she would again help us peice our M back together. I have to admit though, she said some things that I know my W left thinking about. She said regardless of the outcome, the first thing each of us should do is apologize to the other for things we did that were wrong and ask for forgiveness. I said I have done that more times than I can count. W said nothing.

I told her and W that I do love W and that I am sorry for my past mistakes and that I know I need to work on making changes.

I also said I don't hold anything against W and I do forgive her for her mistakes as well.

All in all, the session was handled pretty well by the C I thought. It wasn't supposed to be a M counseling session, but it just turned into one. I think the C was thinking if she can help peice the M back together, it would help with the kids. Either way, she is there for the kids and now that she has our concerns about the kids, she will start focusing on them. I will give her credit for a good effort at our M. But I just don't think that we are at a place right now where much is going to help anytime soon.

The C did ask W what her issues were with me since W is the one wanting the D. W said she is not going to go into the list of things. The C said that we both need to make sure our focus is on God and what he wants for our lives and kids.

And guess what 25, she is an intern. I thought she was actually very good. I can't list everything she said, but I can say I was impressed with her.

We did talk some about M restoration and she said that hearts would have to change. She said I can't control W and I said I don't try and control W. W agreed. I said W does whatever she wants and I do what I have to do for me. W agreed again.

So in 2 weeks, the girls will be talking to the C. On Tuesday September 8th at 5:30 pm central time.

I went over to a friends house after to eat dinner. My check engine light came on in my car again after I just had it fixed so I could get it to pass inspection. Ugggg...

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/27/09 02:08 PM
Nice job Kev. Sounds like you handled that well. Looks like you found a good counselor too.

Wow! "Pro-Marriage" what a concept. wink
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/27/09 05:47 PM
Thanks.

I don't know how well I handled the whole thing. But it is great that she is a Pro-Marriage C.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/31/09 02:05 PM
The rest of my week and weekend was ok. W got her new vehicle and showed it to me. I took D7 to her dance class on Saturday morning. W also showed up to watch her. We talked some about D7 and W's best friend. We went for a ride in her new vehicle after and got D7 some lunch. Saturday night W picked up D7 to take with her to best friends house. Her best friends family ended up getting sick with a 24 hour virus so W and D7 left and went home Saturday night after getting there for a bit.

Sunday morning me and D11 went to mass together and then went home. W dropped off D7 for the afternoon with me so she could go run errands and go to a movie with her friends. I don't recall me and W discussing this but she insisted we did so I took D7 for her. D11 decided she wanted to stay with me for another week because she had just felt like she hadn't gotten enough time in with me. She called her mom and asked if she could. Her mom said she could this one time stay with me til Thursday. D11 was happy.

Saturday night D11 and I made pizza's and then went to Panera Bread and got desert. Then we went to the store and rented a movie. Then we came home and watched it and ordered a couple more to watch together before going to sleep. D11 is loving spending time with just me and her.

At one point D11 brings up the trip to Destin Florida again to me that she asked both me and her mom if we could all take together. She then tells me "you know dad, there are some romantic sunsets in Destin that you and mom would enjoy together. Know what I mean dad?". I was a little stunned but thought ya, that would be great if that happens.

Today W and D7 are home sick. They caught the virus last night and were both throwing up and are still fighting it. I am hoping that me and D11 don't get it. I guess I will know more tonight. D11 has her chior tonight.

Yesterday when W came over to pick up D7 she said that she might want my help in her picking players in her fantasy football draft last night. I said ok. Then I never heard from her.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/31/09 02:11 PM
D11 seems to really be bonding towards me lately. She told me last night that she loves me and that I am the best dad in the world.

That made me feel good. I think that she loves that I spend time with her and I focus on her.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/31/09 02:38 PM
Kev - That all sounds great. Keep it up.

Your WAW is starting to feel a little more comfortable around you. Which is good. She might even be starting to TRUST that you are NOT going to DISRESPECT her boundaries again and BE "SAME OLD KEVIN".... This will take time though. Just keep on being NICE BUT whenever your BOUNDARIES are challenged it is CRITICAL that you RESPECTFULLY stand by them. She will eventually RESPECT your BOUNDARIES but based on your PAST habits it will take time. RESPECT this time and HER SPACE and you might, might, might, have a chance. Regardless, of her though these changes NEED to be FOR YOU. ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT.... If they are for her then they will just lead to EXPECTATIONS and RESENTMENT and Kevin repeating Kevins Cycle. Break the CYLCE Kevin. Keep on going to your meetings. Keep on bringing the girls to their meetings. DONT LET KEVIN DECIDE IF HE NEEDS THESE MEETINGS. KEVIN has NOT proven that he is CAPABLE of these choices yet. LET KEVIN PROVE THIS OVER TIME.

Keep it up. Dont fall back. Keep climbing.

PMA

Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/31/09 03:05 PM
Thanks PMA,

I am going to keep doing everything I am supposed to. I'm not going to fall back again.

I am telling myself as the bible says to be patient and wait on the Lord. In the mean time, I am doing what I am supposed to be doing.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/31/09 03:55 PM
"Wait for the LORD; be strong and take heart and wait for the LORD." Psalm 27:14

"For I know the plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:11-13

"And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will." 2 Timothy 2:24-26

"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Mark 2:17

"For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete." 2 Corinthians 10:3-6

"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy— think about such things. Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you." Philippians 4:8-9

"I wait for you, O Lord; you will answer, O Lord my God." Psalm 38:15

Delay is God saying "It is not time yet." Will you stand in the gap interceding for your spouse and family?

God's delays are not God's denials!

"Yet the LORD longs to be gracious to you; he rises to show you compassion. For the LORD is a God of justice. Blessed are all who wait for him!" Isaiah 30:18

"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." Galatians 6:9

"Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us." Ephesians 3:20

"Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up." Luke 18:1

"Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord." Psalm 27:14

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/31/09 04:27 PM
I just thought I would post some encouraging scriptures for inspiration.

Kevin
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/31/09 05:37 PM
Hi Kevin,

Had a terrible week. Would you please jump over to my thread? I posted everything there! My S tried to take his life on Monday night.

Thanks

Lost
Posted By: missmyfriend Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/31/09 06:04 PM
Kevin, I plan on reading up on your sitch but haven't had a chance to do so yet. Thanks for the scriptures (a couple of posts above). Have you read Hosea and Gomer?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/31/09 06:18 PM
missmyfriend,

I don't know that it is really worth reading up on my stitch unless you want to learn what not to do. I am turning myself around now, but it has taken a long time to start moving in the right direction.

I am glad you found the scriptures inspirational.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/31/09 06:38 PM
25yearsmlc,

I hope that you and your family are healthy and doing well. I hope that your daughter is not back in the hospital, but if she is, I pray that she heal quickly.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/31/09 08:12 PM
So many people are ready to just quit and walk away. They have become exhausted after their stands for their M's.

I know it is hard. But isn't it worth it in the end? When we can say that we fought the good fight and our M was restored?

We live in such a "please me now" world and patience is something that just seems to be lacking so much with this generation. Some stand until it is done, and others give up when they have decided that it is time to end it.

Ultimately, who decides when it is over? Don't we have a covenant? Wasn't it for life? When someone is sick, don't they need a doctor?

Our WAS's are sick right now. Many of us have caused that sickness. I know I have. It is our job to repair that sickness through Jesus.

I hate to see people losing faith and hope and giving up and quitting their stand for their M. They see something else that looks good to them and decide their covenant isn't worth standing for anymore. But I tell you that it is worth standing for as long as it takes.

The enemy works so hard to draw us away from our stand. He brings other people into our lives and tells us that the other people are better for us. But it is all a lie. It is designed to get us to fall away from what God has asked us to stand for. The reality is you eventually become just like your WAS when you give up your stand for your M. People don't want to be told that. But how can anyone deny it?

The weakness, loneliness, fear of the future, etc takes over and becomes so strong that people give in to it. It is a powerful force against us. But that is when we must keep our faith and stand stronger. Pray, fast, spend time with God, keep working on ourselves and building a life as if while not losing sight of the ultimate prize. A restored M better than it ever was before.

I just felt the need to post this after reading some threads of people being ready to walk away and quit.

If it even encourages one person to keep standing for their covenant M, then it was worth it.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/31/09 08:44 PM
I understand what you're saying Kevin and for the most part agree. I also know that it does "take 2" and you CAN NOT force someone to WANT to do THE WORK. All you can do is let them go by detaching and moving on. If someday they choose to do THE WORK then you can decide if you still want that.

It's that simple...

PMA
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/31/09 08:49 PM
PMA,

I agree. You cannot force someone else to do the work. And I wasn't saying you could. I am simply encouraging anyone that may read this to not give up and lose faith. Thats all.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/31/09 09:11 PM
All right I have to chime in here because I can't believe what I just read.

"They see something else that looks good to them and decide their covenant isn't worth standing for anymore."

Are you serious? There are people that have been here for years and have never seen anything good to them. There's an issue of self-respect and many times the LBS is just tired of being the scapegoat all the time.

Kevin, you really don't have the right to be judgemental here. If you want to tell people not to give up, that's fine. But don't make judgement calls like "oh you're so easy to give up". Give me a break.

Even in the Charlyne and her H were divorced. Sometimes that's out of our control. But don't pass say we LBS who are here are weak because some want to stop the emotional abuse they are going through.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/31/09 09:24 PM
Stuck808,

A simple misinterpertation. We are ALL weak at times. I am not judging anyone. I am simply trying to enourage people to not give up on their stand. And with regard to Bob and Charlyne, Charlyne realized that what she did in divorcing Bob was not God's will.

Nobody is being judged. I am simply saying don't give up on your stand. That is all. I am not saying to not build a life for yourself. Build it. I am just saying don't go to someone else who may come into your life. Keep your stand up. Put it in God's hands. But don't go down the same path because you are emotionally exhausted to those who choose to.

You can build your life, get relief from it without walking away from your covenant.

Keep up the good work and the stance, but make yourself a happy life while waiting for God to do his work.

Just don't give up.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 08/31/09 09:25 PM
Stuck,

You have to be one of my most favorite people. I never know when you are going to pop in and out, but I can almsot always guarantee you are going to have something to disagree with me about. And that is ok.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/01/09 12:33 AM
And as usual you haven't READ what I wrote. In fact, you didn't even read what you wrote.

You just insulted all the LBSs who don't "fight" or "stand" for their M. Which is demeaning and undeserved.

Read your post again.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/01/09 01:50 AM
Stuck,

I did not insult anyone. I encouraged them to continue to stand for their M.

Kevin
Posted By: missmyfriend Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/01/09 03:02 AM
Kevin, I am not being critical but a stand is something that is very solitary. People with different feelings on the subject can be very offended, even when it is not the intention. I have made comments, in the past, that I didn't try to offend but that is what I did. I believe in standing, for me. Until God tells me otherwise, I plan on standing and I actually pray that God will be my strength to help me do what He tells me to do.

Keep the faith, Kevin
Posted By: june72 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/01/09 03:23 AM
Kevin, I have a weird perspective on the whole entire divorce thing. I am totally against it. Hated that my parents divorced, hated being their go-between for conversations, hated that they said negative things about each other to me, hated the custody fights and have to live two different places.
But my GOD! Did love to finally not hear them fighting and screaming at the tops of their lungs every single night as long as I could remember. It was a joy to not see my mother crying hysterically and see my father sitting in the living room with all the lights completely off smoking a cigarette in the dark in furious anger and depression. It was a total joy to not tell my younger sister to comfort our hysterical mom and I would "take dad". B/c dad was the scary one. I would talk to him and say "daddy, I think things are going to be ok" and he would say nothing. Scared the cr@p out of me.
The was one episode of violence that we did witness (dad choking my mom, pressing her against a wall). It was only the one time but can I tell you the eggshells we walked on!!! My sister and I were so very happy their marraige ended.
Again, really truly- I am supper glad they ended. I also wish that could have managed the entire situation better.

I think that some marriages HAVE to end.
I am not giving up on my marriage- but there are certain situations where if would be definitely over for me. Without a doubt.
JMHO


Ironically- about 16 years later- a few months b4 my dad died they became happy friends again- who would have thought it!
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/01/09 04:33 AM
""They see something else that looks good to them and decide their covenant isn't worth standing for anymore.""

Again, this is where you are judgmental. People here have gone through hell and back. They are fighting for their covenant. They never see it worth standing for.

"We live in such a "please me now" world and patience is something that just seems to be lacking so much with this generation. Some stand until it is done, and others give up when they have decided that it is time to end it.

Ultimately, who decides when it is over? Don't we have a covenant? Wasn't it for life? When someone is sick, don't they need a doctor?

Our WAS's are sick right now. Many of us have caused that sickness. I know I have."

Let's face it, it takes two for a R to fail. Not just the LBS. AND it's not the LBS's fault if the WAS decides to have an A. There is NEVER a good reason for that. Either be M or end it so there is no A.

Many of the Newcomers here have to get over the fact that the failings of their R was not strictly their fault. Our WASs tell us the most demeaning things sometimes and our self-esteem is ripped to shreds. This is when they need to stand for themselves first and MAYBE the M later.

Again, I think it's great that you're standing for your M no matter what. But you've got to watch what you say for lack of people getting the idea that you're calling them "weak".
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/01/09 02:01 PM
Quote:
Again, I think it's great that you're standing for your M no matter what. But you've got to watch what you say for lack of people getting the idea that you're calling them "weak".


I understand what you are saying Stuck. But also remember, I included myself in that as well. I know that we all have weak moments.

Quote:
Ironically- about 16 years later- a few months b4 my dad died they became happy friends again- who would have thought it!


June, I'm glad they became friends again. Imagine if they could have learned to love again and been restored. What a glorius thing that would have been after all they had been through.

I think that separation is definitely needed for some M's for a period of time. I don't disagree with that. I just hate to see any M's end permanently.

Kevin
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/01/09 03:12 PM
Hi Kevin,

Just wanted to let you know after listening to Bob and Charlyne's CD I decided to write to my H and let him know that I forgive him for leaving me and the children and that he is welcome home if or when he wants too. I haven't let him know that for over 6 months. I was acting like I didn't care, and said hurtful things to him when he would say them to me and it wasn't right.

I let him know that me and the children miss and love him. I wasn't sure if I should do it or not because he has not contacted any of us except for the card he sent our D in 3 months. I sent it out last Monday, and that's when my S tried to take his life. My S didn't know about the letter and you know from my thread how the rest of the week went. H called about insurance for my S when he didn't have to which was on Wednesday when he received the letter but haven't heard a word since.

You are so right because it does take a lot of patience! I'm standing for my M but I'm so lonely and I know the odds are greatly against me since my MIL is greatly involved and I think has my H convinced that divorce is the only answer. Also don't know if I did the right thing or not but something was telling me to hang up our wedding pic again. I took it down 3 months after he left because it depressed me so much but I did hang it back up and talked to the kids last night and told them about God hating divorce and we all need to pray that H gets better and wants to come home.

I just don't know if he is with someone else now or not....don't know if I want to know either.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/01/09 06:42 PM
Lost41,

Which CD did you order?

I understand the whole situation with the MIL being a factor against someone. My MIL hates me and is for the D. My FIL is for the D. My W's best friend is for the D. I have a lot of forces against me. But I know I have a covenant M and I have God on my side and through the Lord, anything is possible when it is in accordance with his will.

May His will be done and not mine.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/01/09 07:33 PM
Stuck,

I also understand the exhausted feeling. It emotionally and physically drains you. I feel it to. I just keep pushing myself to stand reguardless and I just want to encourage others if they can.

Kevin
Posted By: missmyfriend Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/01/09 09:03 PM
Praying for you and your family, K4D
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/02/09 02:50 PM
Kevin,

I ordered the one called "Why doesn't my spouse come home?"

Have you ordered anything from there? I was just wondering if any of the other things that they have helped you in your stand.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/02/09 02:51 PM
If you focus on giants, you will fall. But if you focus on God, your Giants will fall.

When David faced Goliath, the references are he focused on God 9 times and Goliath 2 times. He focused on God 4 times as much as he focused on Goliath.

Face your giants like David faced his.

The times that David failed, he did not pray. The times that he succeeded, he prayed.

God may be letting you face this giant so he can show his strength an power and glory.

David ran toward Goliath. When is the last time you ran toward your giant? Typically we run away from our problems. Don't run away anymore. Run toward your giant and take it on.

Say Divorce, you are not having my family. Be persistant. We have to keep trying. We know that in time, that giant will come down.

Face your God, and your giants will fall. But focus on your giants, and you will fall.

From Max Lucado

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/02/09 03:04 PM
Quote:
I ordered the one called "Why doesn't my spouse come home?"

Have you ordered anything from there? I was just wondering if any of the other things that they have helped you in your stand.


I haven't ordered any. I have thought about it though. Right now I listen to the daily devotional and also read each daily devotional. Sometimes I listen to stop divorce radio on their website. I also go back through the archives and listen to old messages as well as read. I explore different areas of the website as well.

Kevin
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/03/09 03:41 AM
FYI: I have ordered a few CDs from Rejoice and they have been very helpful.

GOD DOES SPEAK - ARE YOU LISTENING?
STOP LOOKING AT YOUR CIRCUMSTANCES - There is Victory in Jesus
THE BATTLE FOR YOUR MIND AND YOUR THOUGHTS!
LORD TEACH ME TO PRAY AND SPEAK THE WORD & YOUR SPOUSE IS A SLAVE TO SIN
LORD CHANGE MY SPOUSE'S HEART

and a few others, I keep them in my car and listen to them when driving to work. Now, I have been listening to K-LOVE on the radio.

I'm sure I'll be buying some more as they have helped me tremendously.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/03/09 05:10 AM
W has added previous OM to her FB page. It is a picture of OM and his W. I guess that says they are still in contact.

That hurts alot.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/03/09 05:13 AM
I had forgotten all the pain I felt back then. Seeing that picture now brings back all that pain again.

That really hurts.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/03/09 12:16 PM
Kevin that's why you shouldn't look at her FB page...You know that, right?
Posted By: Orich Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/03/09 12:28 PM
My W took me off her friends list, so I can't look there. I never really looked anyway, but my sister had called and asked why she had taken my whole family off.
Funny, I turned her on to Facebook. I had a page first, then told her about it. I quickly lost interest, she took to it like a kid to candy.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/03/09 01:45 PM
I think I am torn on what to do. Do I go ahead and tell OM's W what has been going on and what may still be going on or flaring back up again. My W is talking about going camping again next weekend and then going to a town about an hour and a half away again. Ironic the timing of these things all of a sudden again and all of a sudden he is on her FB page.

If I tell his W and she D's him, that frees him up to be with my W and that also breaks apart a second family possibly. If I don't tell her, this A possibly, probably keeps on going.

Plus if I tell his W, then my W becomes extremely angry with me again and probably hurries up and files for D. She hasn't refiled yet.

I don't know if this guy has guts or he is an idiot after I told him to break off contact with my W or I would let his W know.

I know I need to pray about this as I am just not sure what the answer is here.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/03/09 02:31 PM
Will anyone advise?

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/03/09 02:38 PM
FWIW Kev, I say just let it go. You, like me, are not in a situation like some where we can say, and it do any good, that we won't live in an open M. I don't think it will do you any good...But...I am torn on whether the OM's W should know...
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/03/09 02:58 PM
I agree. I am not in a position where it would make a change for the better if I let his W know. Thats good advise VD.

Thanks,

Kevin
Posted By: missmyfriend Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/03/09 04:51 PM
Kevin, your W on FB and having the OM as a friend is one of your giants. You are giving it too much attention. (I am saying that to myself for issues I am facing). Your focus should be on your Ws transformation, i.e. that she has a desire to know God. Praying that a godly woman will come into her life and help her realize that happiness is Him first and then realize the joy God has given her in a family.

Remember when God told Moses to send the twelve spies to the land of Canaan and the reports that came back from 10 of the spies said that the land was incredible but the people there were strong and would defeat them. Joshua and Caleb came back and reported that the land was wonderful and that God would help them take possession of it. Since the rest of the Israelites listened to the other ten, they were forced to wander the desert for 40 years. Only Joshua and Caleb were allowed to go into Canaan.

Kevin, what is God telling you? Are you listening? (I ask these same questions regarding my situation all the time).

While sometimes it seems like we need to be forceful and take charge of a situation, are we doing this under our own power or under God's direction.

Pray, pray and pray some more. Be cautious and vigilant that it is God talking to you.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/03/09 07:52 PM
missmyfriend,

Those are very wise words. You are right. Thank you for reminding me.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/03/09 09:00 PM
"My W is talking about going camping again next weekend and then going to a town about an hour and a half away again."

Is she going with OM?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/03/09 09:50 PM
My guess is that she is. She used to talk about taking trips when she was with OM before. Now he is on her FB page all of a sudden and all of a sudden she is taking trips again.

I just kind of put 2 and 2 together.

Kevin
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/03/09 09:56 PM
Kevin....

You might be right.

But don't get your exercise from jumping to conclusions! It's totally unuseful.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 12:58 AM
If you don't know for sure, why on earth would you tell the guy's W?

Detach.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 01:09 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Will anyone advise?

Kevin


Sorry you are here AGAIN but It's the Same question you asked in February of this year....LITERALLY. You got a variety of answers then, as you will now, but back then you chose to do the mostly angry thing, under the guise of self righteousness, and morality and here you are again...asking the same question..[color:#CC0000].DETACHMENT is your answer, but you hate it so much you won't do it so you go around in circles like this. And you will keep on doing so forever b/c you resist that which does not comfort you...((and for the record, so what if the OM is on her fb?? His pic has his wife on it!! Hello?? Ignore this b/c you should not even know it! Self inflicted pain is something you do well. Stop it.))
j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 02:34 AM
I'm not going to say anything to his wife I decided. I am just going to keep doing my own thing.

Tonight is the first night I haven't had one or both of my kids in almost 2 weeks. I miss them already. I sure enjoy having them around.

Kev, what are you doing for you???

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 01:47 PM
TGIF!! Hmm... what am I going to do? Well, I am going to go to an AA meeting tonight. Maybe I will go to 2 of them. I am going to a friends house tomorrow night for a house warming. Sunday I have mass and then I get my kids back on Sunday night.

I'm not sure what I am going to do during the day tomorrow and Sunday.

Kevin
Posted By: RedSoxFan Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 02:01 PM
K4D,

I haven't even read your thread but I can share a bit about me. I've figured out that I lose 5 lbs and a week's worth of forward progress every time I dig into W's facebook activity. When I'm in that mode it is destructive for me and I can almost see her running the other way.

Don't look. It is empowering. Just don't!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 02:03 PM
Quote:
Sorry you are here AGAIN but It's the Same question you asked in February of this year....LITERALLY. You got a variety of answers then, as you will now, but back then you chose to do the mostly angry thing, under the guise of self righteousness, and morality and here you are again...asking the same question


25, I am not doing the angry thing or self righteousness thing this time. I am handling things differently now than I used to.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 02:05 PM
Quote:
K4D,

I haven't even read your thread but I can share a bit about me. I've figured out that I lose 5 lbs and a week's worth of forward progress every time I dig into W's facebook activity. When I'm in that mode it is destructive for me and I can almost see her running the other way.

Don't look. It is empowering. Just don't!


Redsoxfan,

I am not going to continue to look. I'm not sure what made me look this last time. I shouldn't have. I felt that crunch in my heart again that I hadn't felt in a while when I looked. Not gonna happen again.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 02:06 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
TGIF!! Hmm... what am I going to do? Well, I am going to go to an AA meeting tonight. Maybe I will go to 2 of them. I am going to a friends house tomorrow night for a house warming. Sunday I have mass and then I get my kids back on Sunday night.

I'm not sure what I am going to do during the day tomorrow and Sunday.

Kevin


I vote for you to go fishing. Nothing like drowning worms for a few hours to bring some peace and clarity to my head.
Posted By: Orich Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 02:06 PM
Remove her from your friends list.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 02:11 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I had forgotten all the pain I felt back then. Seeing that picture now brings back all that pain again.

That really hurts.

Kevin


Kevin, stop it. Don't look at her FB. It will only torture you. Remember Kev, its one day at a time and one lego at a time.

Pain never really gets forgotten, it just kind of gets scabbed over and then forms a permanent scar. Stop fishing for something to rip the scab off.

Your job is to shine brighter than any OM. You aren't going to do that this way. Focus Kevin, focus.

And thank you for your text telling me to enjoy my first day at school. I really needed it because I was pretty nervous and it really touched me that you cared.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 02:20 PM
Quote:
And thank you for your text telling me to enjoy my first day at school. I really needed it because I was pretty nervous and it really touched me that you cared.


I do care. And you are very welcomed.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 02:22 PM
I'm actually not a friend on her FB page. Way back when I sent an invitation to be friends and she never responded. But you can see who their friends are even if you are not their friend. And I don't know why I decided to look at it that night. Maybe it was because she started talking about taking trips all of a sudden again.

Either way, I am letting it go and putting it in the Lord's hands.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 02:28 PM
Funny thing...I check my FB about once every two weeks...Checked it yesterday got a few friend requests...For some reason I check it again today and it seems my W just put up a FB page, she was a friend suggestion for me...Funny since that's the first time I've ever checked it two days in a row. Didn't check her page and "x" her out so she doesn't come up again.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 02:55 PM
Thats a good idea VD. My W has also been suggested to me as a friend.

Kevin
Posted By: RedSoxFan Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 02:57 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Thats a good idea VD. My W has also been suggested to me as a friend.

Kevin


Ditto, even after she unfriended me a while back. Apparently they need to work on those recommendation algorithms ;-)

Click on the X and move on smile
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 05:01 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
Sorry you are here AGAIN but It's the Same question you asked in February of this year....LITERALLY. You got a variety of answers then, as you will now, but back then you chose to do the mostly angry thing, under the guise of self righteousness, and morality and here you are again...asking the same question


25, I am not doing the angry thing or self righteousness thing this time. I am handling things differently now than I used to.

Kevin


K4d,
Looking at her fb page at all, wondering about where she's going and with whom, b/c you are pondering why she's going on trips, and again debating involvement in OM's family, are exactly the same behaviors and questions you asked back then. I'm glad you seem to be done wrestling with the debate now. But Looking at it at all, and all this energy you spend on what she is doing and thinking and again where she's going and what she's feeling, are ALL same old same old...and it boils down to YOU taking the problem back from God, again.

If there's a chance of getting her back, it's from true detachment, which you do not understand and or accept. If there is no chance of her coming back- or if someone could see into the future and knew your wife's choice would not be to reconcile, you'd need to detach, so you could move on. The sooner the better for you and your daughters. Either way, detachment is the path you have to go. Truly trusting God would allow it. Not saying trust Him to give you your wants and wishes and force your w's choice, but trusting God that you will be alright no matter what she chooses.

God gave her free will. You refuse to believe that includes the risk of her not coming back at all, no matter what you say, or believe, or how strongly (but your faith isn't that strong or you'd stop checking and obsessing and hypothecating about her and her activities).

Look, Fine, you want to believe that by saying you have faith, that God will restore your M b/c He hates divorce, and by maybe someday truly handing it over to him then guarantees she'll come back, well --that's your choice and your life and you can do that if you want.

But rather than debating this, just realize and accept and practice what you preach about trust. Finally, DETACH from her, and that means reading up on it so you understand it better. I don't think you know the term's true meaning and there are links on your thread you have been sent many times about detachment. If you could actually do this for real, first off, you might have a chance, and second, you'd save yourself so much needless pain. (how many times have you been told this? Maybe your ears can hear it now?? I don't know...)

I do know Being a left behind spouse is hard enough as it is, why increase your pain and awareness of it all, by searching her fb page or seeing if she's online (the whole IM thing) and besides, What were you hoping to find?
As far as I'm concerned, Trust in God = detachment.

And you know sometimes you ought to look at what worked for other people who are married or had their div busted. I mean you get a lot of support here from people in the same boat, and God knows I did too. That IS a big reason for being here. Others who are feeling the same pain and relate to just getting through it. It helps a lot! I thank GOD for this site for that reason too. But I also needed to search out and find those ON this site who practiced DB techniques who had them work for them (There are other sites for other approaches if you want or insist, but this is Div Busting by MWD, so consider reading what worked here, and shop around for what you feel is best for you. But posting here, what is NOT DB, seems a bit stubborn and misplaced, literally and no, I'm not saying all that you post is not DB but some of it seems off topic).

Anyhow, sometimes when you notice a person here for a long time in the same boat doing the same thing, ask yourself, is that where/who you want to be? OR maybe they have a diff situation and are giving advice that tells you something that does not apply to yours. Or they want to punish, "In order to forgive" or some other stuff......Learn from what has worked for others and when I say worked, I mean either it restored their M, or they are truly happier now than before, with or without their WASs.

I'm telling you again, that my faith allowed me to accept that I had to create a happy life for myself and children, operating on the assumption that H was gone b/c--- HE WAS GONE!!...So truly detaching from my h's actions and obsessing about it all, saved MY life from 1) being consumed by my anger & pain, and 2) worrying about things over which I had NO control. And it lead me to finally be upbeat about MY life, making plans that did not include h, NOT to punish him, but to move on with my life b/c it seemed he was going his own way and

I came to believe that it was truly HIS LOSS if we div, b/c we are a great family and losing us was just enormously stupid of him....I believed it then, and I would now if he left again. Instead of focusing on what I was losing, I realized what a loss HE faced and though I felt sorry for him -- I moved on, and I suspect I projected the belief that I regretted his actions mostly for HIM, b/c we were going to be fine no matter what, and we went on a great trip without him, and I applied for jobs in other places b/c I COULD do so without wondering how it'd affect HIS career....and whoops! He noticed... gee, and that triggered some slow but major changes in him, and then some good things began to happen. Some of them all at once, and some more slowly but I KNOW FOR A FACT, B/C HE HAS TOLD ME, that my moving on --got him re-thinking things and he did not tell me this right away but I carried on, and eventually it stopped him in his tracks.... he missed what we had... A lot.

A lot of what you have done, and to some extent are still doing - would have stalled me out. I would not have started to move on. I'd be waiting angrily or sadly, and I'd be pining. If I had not moved on, realizing what I DID have in my life and how good it was and what a loss HE faced, I would have radiated my lonliness and empty life, and projected all those unfilled needs onto him, and that would probably have just ended the M for good.


Some people say "standing for their m," when what they really mean is waiting & not changing themselves....I'm throwing that out for you ponder, not react to or take offense to, just to ponder....I do believe
You need to take a breather from this topic (your M and wife) which demands so much of your attention. It fills your life up so much you really don't have much else going on.

I have over 6-7 things to do this long weekend (NOT all related to being with H) and I don't mean errands, so yeah, you still need to GAL so that your weekends and days without the girls are not mere fillers between time with the girls and...and a few AA meetings and...time with the girls, in there. At your church there are groups not all related to divorce or marriage. How about a team to play on, or a class to take? Your new job must offer something.... I don't want to re-hash the many many things CG & others have listed to you here on your own thread, so why not go re-read their many posts about all the FREE or cheap things you could be doing to GAL?

Make yourself happier. I hear so much loneliness in your posts and filler time. You have to create a happy life for yourself. WE ALL DO. Happiness does not just happen. I think it was Aristotle who said "Happiness is a virtue." It's also attractive, and it models something crucial for your d's.

Good luck,
J-
Posted By: missmyfriend Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 05:24 PM
25yrsmlc, I appreciated your post so much, I saved a copy so I can refer to it frequently. I am like Kevin in that I believe God can heal my M. I can't do it but He can. At the same time, I want to live my life and become the man God wants me to be and not some milquetoast version of myself (as I now see myself). I am so worried about making the same mistakes I made in the past that could have contributed to my Ws departure that I am making new mistakes that are equally unappealing. I admit that I "hide" at home and other places that are safe from the possibility of a new R starting up since I am incredibly weak when I am around the fairer sex, especially one that expresses an interest in me.

(I apologize Kevin for asking this in your thread) 25yrsmlc, would you please read my last post in my current thread and provide any recommendations that could help me move forward in a positive sense? Yes, I will still want a Christ-centered life but I don't see that as being in opposition to what I am asking and that is to live my life while I let God work on my M.

My thread - MMF - Need Advice
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 05:29 PM
Hi Kevin,

Just checking to see how you are doing. 25 would you be able to check my thread out and give me some advice. You sound like from what you are telling Kevin very good at this DB and I'm somewhat like Kevin as far as having a hard time detaching.

Kevin is a good person and if it wasn't for him I would have done all the wrong things in God's eyes. He gave me the site for rejoice ministries.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 05:45 PM
Quote:
Make yourself happier. I hear so much loneliness in your posts and filler time. You have to create a happy life for yourself. WE ALL DO. Happiness does not just happen. I think it was Aristotle who said "Happiness is a virtue." It's also attractive, and it models something crucial for your d's.


It is true that I am lonely without my kids. I didn't even want to go home last night. I ended up going out with some friends. But that is like you say "filler time". The AA I feel like is for me, but it is not a passion of mine. It is something I do because I need to do it. My coworkers were saying that hunting season started. But I would need to buy the equipment and I have nobody to go hunting with. I am starting to think dancing is not for me. It is hard to take a class right now with the girls and our schedule. I am trying to think of something.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 05:47 PM
I don't mind at all missmyfriend and Lost41.

Kevin
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 06:47 PM
You are a great guy Kevin. Thanks once again. I can't seem to stop thinking about everything all of the time (24/7). It's going to be 10 months already (which also seems like a life time), and I think all of the time and I'm so darn lonely.

This is the first time also that I have not been in a relationship or married for over 25yrs. Not use to it at all, being alone.

I also sometimes won't go out either because I'm afraid I will be tempted due to the no contact thing and being so lonely.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 06:57 PM
Thanks Lost41,

I know the feeling. I have kind of limited myself in social settings also because I don't want to be tempted.

Kevin
Posted By: missmyfriend Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/04/09 11:56 PM
Ditto here
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/05/09 03:02 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
[quote] I am trying to think of something.

Kevin


Go fishing!!!!!!!!!! It doesn't cost much and you will have a lot of fun.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/05/09 04:10 AM
Walmart fishing license is $30. Then a fishing rod and something to dangle in the water. I could go bass fishing. It is an idea. I'd really like to go hunting. But that gets kind of pricey. And it is more fun to go with someone you know.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/05/09 09:00 PM
K4,

re-read the posts that we sent you last spring and summer. There were at least a dozen ideas that cost little to nothing. I just posted that to you and it's obvious you didn't do it.

As for what is tempting you, I assume it's OW and that you think dancing with one will lead to something. I do a lot of theater and it's never been a problem to have a "love scene" and mix it up with real life. You just do it.

I think you're very very lonely as you admit. To "cure" that, you need friends and to have friends, you have to be one. Volunteer for something or take a class in something and help others, and again,

RE-READ the earlier posts. I want to post to others now so it's sort of a drag to have to repeat myself. You have the information on your thread.
In fact you have ALL The answers already on your thread. K4, you stop yourself so much. Just read the excuses you have the past one day for not GAL more, and then enlarge it over time to see how you've slowed yourself down in progressing...

Take charge of your life. This isn't complicated. Don't be weak. Don't preach. Just take charge of your life and happiness. You once said that you had a hard time "manning up" b/c you "never had to before"....so it's long overdue, don't you think?
You know, you really can do this. The question is "if /when" and that is entirely up to you.

j-
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/07/09 10:06 AM
so what did you do?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/08/09 03:53 PM
I had kind of a hard weekend. I'm not interested in talking about it. Just focusing on work today.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/08/09 06:30 PM
You didn't backslide again did you? Talk it out to not let it fester in your head.

I hope your D's are okay and I'm praying for your sitch.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/08/09 09:18 PM
I caved and emailed this to W.

W,

The girls and I are ready for us to be a family again. I am ready to come home and us work on our marriage.

This is no life for any of us. This isn't how it was meant to be. I am ready to step up to the plate to meet all of your needs and be the absolute best I can be for you.

Please consider this. Please soften your heart.

I forgive you for everything. There will be no questions asked and will never be anything brought up. I have simply open arms and unconditional love for you. I ask that you please forgive me to and allow us to start fresh and new.

Kevin

She didn't respond. I don't know why I sent it. I was just feeling lonely and tired of this whole situation.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/08/09 09:20 PM
My girls have their counseling appointment tonight. They will actually get to talk to the counselor tonight.

I just had a hard weekend. I took a hit financially and just had a tough later part of the weekend.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/08/09 11:08 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I caved and emailed this to W.

She didn't respond. I don't know why I sent it. I was just feeling lonely and tired of this whole situation.


Kevin, I am not going to 2x4 you, but I am going to ask how your hand hurts after you touched the hot stove. You know that this won't have her softening her heart. You know it probably took down a bunch of legos.

You caved because you were lonely and tired of the sitch. Ok, fair enough. How does your W feel? How can she believe that you will put her first when you put your loneliness and fatigue in front of how she feels?

Strap on those big boy pants, Kevin. Life up your chin. Go get a gosh darned notebook that you can write in. Put all the words in there that you want to say to her. All of your pledges, all of your professions of love and pain.

This is the hardest part of moving forward, Kevin. And it doesn't get easier in the short term. The only way through it is through it. And, if your W were to have a glance back on her walk, you want the you she looks at to be the strongest, most confident Kevin you can be.

Remember when we talked after the two of you argued. You were ashamed of yourself and understood there was going to be a lot of work you would have to do on yourself. There is still a lot of work to be done.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/08/09 11:45 PM
Yeah I would call that a backslide.
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 12:29 PM
Kev,

Obviously sending that was wrong you know it so no need to rehash...One question and please don't take this wrong, were you drinking when you wrote it?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 01:23 PM
VD,

No, I was not drinking when I wrote it. I was just feeling tired of this whole thing again.

It seems like I will go through periods of feeling more positive, and then I go through periods of feeling more hopeless. I think it just feels like it is getting harder to get up lately and be motivated.

It is something I have to snap myself out of again.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 01:26 PM
Quote:
Remember when we talked after the two of you argued. You were ashamed of yourself and understood there was going to be a lot of work you would have to do on yourself. There is still a lot of work to be done.


Yup. I know it. I have to start putting those legos back on again.

Stuck, yup, it was a backslide again.

My girls went to their counseling appointment last night. They both seemed to enjoy it. Hopefully it starts helping them.

D11 was ready to run away to Orlando Florida last night because she is tired of D7. The 2 can't seem to get along to save their lives.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 01:28 PM
your wife is co-parenting, kevin.
it is what people do when they are divorced.
she is done. can you not see that?
Your marriage is over.

if you are having a hard time dealing with this you may need to consider Abilify. Your anti-depressant alone is not working.
Steve.
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 01:29 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D

It seems like I will go through periods of feeling more positive, and then I go through periods of feeling more hopeless. I think it just feels like it is getting harder to get up lately and be motivated.

It is something I have to snap myself out of again.

Kevin


This is why you NEED to detach, ASAP...You're letting her control your feelings.
Posted By: Deep Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 01:32 PM
Actually (and I don't mean this unkindly), it's more like you are losing control of your feelings, period.

Was there anything the W did that set you off on that email?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 01:43 PM
I think it is just that I am extremely tired of this situation. It has been a year now since all of this began. I just keep wondering how long can she keep this up.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 01:44 PM
Quote:
Actually (and I don't mean this unkindly), it's more like you are losing control of your feelings, period.


I feel that way at times.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 01:47 PM
Quote:
I just keep wondering how long can she keep this up.


Kev until you realize she COULD keep this up forever you are never going to get anywhere...You have all the tools you need you just need to put them to use.

Remember detaching DOES NOT mean giving up.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 02:00 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I think it is just that I am extremely tired of this situation. It has been a year now since all of this began. I just keep wondering how long can she keep this up.
Kevin


Wow!!! That sounds REALLY CONTROLLING Kevin. "How long can she keep this up???" She has FREE WILL... She could KEEP THIS UP!!! FOREVER if you DONT DETACH AND MOVE ON... Let her go Kevin. Show her REALLY LOVE by giving her what she WANTS which is to be LET GO... Maybe then someday she will RESPECT YOU for giving her what she asked for.... Remember she doesn't know what is best for her BUT SHE DOES KNOW WHAT SHE WANTS RIGHT NOW!!!

Let it GO Kevin... Let it GO!!!

PMA
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 02:30 PM
Kevin,

Search online for a local hunting club. Go to their next meeting. Are you a novice or expert or somewhere in between? Up here where I live the clubs are active. They have their own lands and schedule hunts. You will meet some new people there. In my experience almost all of the members are very friendly.

I think that you need to start filling your time with anything except sitting at home an thinking about your situation. You need to get busy. Volunteer. Fill those empty moments so that you don't send emails to your wife.

I'm sorry Kevin.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 02:46 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I just keep wondering how long can she keep this up.


you need to think of it like death. she is not coming back.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 03:17 PM
Quote:
you need to think of it like death. she is not coming back.


This is a worldy view. I refuse to believe this one.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 04:44 PM
There is a very good chance she will come to her own awakening about staying in her marriage. But only when you have made yourself happy and carry on as if the marriage no longer exists. No more pressure on her. Any talk should only be about the kids.

You need to be thinking this mantra...

My wife is gone.
I dont need my wife,
but I want her.

My marriage is over.
I dont need my marriage,
but I want my marriage.

I am just speaking from my own experience where I enforced strong boundaries with consequences and learned to detach from the dark period she was going through. She saw my increased strength and happiness and ultimately asked for another chance. But, I had actually discovered her true character, lack of emotional strength and I was much happier without her and let the divorce finalize.

Posted By: Kettricken Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 05:09 PM
Kevin, I know you're a believer. Yes, the Bible is full of examples of dramatic reversals (Manassah springs to mind, and obviously Saul of Tarsus, etc) ... but there's a lot of sad stories of people who didn't change one iota, too. Even if you grant that God does "change" some people and soften their hearts, he apparently doesn't do that in all cases, and here on earth we're not privy to all the whys and wherefores. Therefore, I don't understand your contention that it is somehow "worldly" to believe that your wife may choose to persist/be allowed to persist in her current choices.

Humility dictates that we don't try to do God's job for him. You should persist in whatever course seems morally correct to you. But by detaching to a healthy degree, getting on with your life (no, I don't mean dating, I mean living your gift of life to the full) and accepting ALL possible outcomes, you demonstrate that you are putting yourself fully into His hands.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 05:33 PM
Quote:
Therefore, I don't understand your contention that it is somehow "worldly" to believe that your wife may choose to persist/be allowed to persist in her current choices.


Saying that she is not coming back is what I was disputing. I believe she will someday at some point. I just don't know when. It is that wait that is frusturating sometimes. Which I know is why you get a life so you aren't focused on your circumstances.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 05:47 PM
Once again. What gives you the right to make her decisions for her. That is very CONTROLLING THINKING... You dont have to like it over even agree with it but REALITY is REALITY. ACCEPTING someone where they are at is a GIFT and shows RESPECT.
You have to give it before you get it...

What happens in 20 years from now when your daughter comes to you and tells you she wants to divorce her selfish, alcoholic husband. She's had enough of his lies and promises and cant do it anymore. What will you tell her? Truthfully... NOT what you would like to hear...

PMA
Posted By: GoBison Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 05:55 PM
Kevin did you ever think that God is waiting for you to change before your wife comes home. You are standing for your M good for you. But God will only do it on his time and when he knows it is right. If you never change you could be standing for your M the rest of your life. Change, detach and let God do the work on your W. The only work Kevin needs to do is work on Kevin. If it takes 10 years for God to bring your W home are you still going to be emailing her asking her to come home?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 07:23 PM
Quote:
Kevin did you ever think that God is waiting for you to change before your wife comes home.


Yes.

Quote:
You are standing for your M good for you. But God will only do it on his time and when he knows it is right.


I know.

Quote:
If you never change you could be standing for your M the rest of your life.


I agree.

Quote:
Change, detach and let God do the work on your W. The only work Kevin needs to do is work on Kevin.


I know.

Quote:
If it takes 10 years for God to bring your W home are you still going to be emailing her asking her to come home?


No. But I will still be standing.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 08:00 PM
Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
What happens in 20 years from now when your daughter comes to you and tells you she wants to divorce her selfish, alcoholic husband. She's had enough of his lies and promises and cant do it anymore. What will you tell her? Truthfully... NOT what you would like to hear...
PMA


What is your answer?
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/09/09 11:13 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I think it is just that I am extremely tired of this situation. It has been a year now since all of this began. I just keep wondering how long can she keep this up.

Kevin

Wrong question. The question is how long you will keep this up? You are the one who won't change for an adult amount of time and who measures progress with a smile from her or no fighting for a week...it's you who won't focus or stay the course. You are the one who weakens and gives in to your emotions. Sure she gave into temptation, but how is that so different? Morally aside, I mean. You both let emotions control you and you are acting like you did a year ago. So you are tired of HER behavior but hey, at least hers is new.....

Next time, and there will be a next time you want to do this, you must contemplate the LIKELY Outcome of your continued pleading since it has NOT ONCE WORKED for you. But it has often pushed her further away, so don't just hope for some vaguely ideal outcome which was probably so vague in your head anyhow, b/c you were not thinking so much as feeling, and needing and "thirstily reaching out for a drink from a well that says "I'M DRY!!..." don't go to dry wells when you are thirsty. That means when you feel needy, don't go to HER.

She apparently has to go forward in this path, for it to reveal itself as the wrong one. You have no control over that yet you wrote that note as if you'd get a 180' from her at this point. You are making it all so much worse for yourself b/c your neediness always, always comes first...(and you are one stubborn needy guy who still has not GAL...)

K4, you admitted a history of depression. It's showing. Get some help. If not now, when? What will it take?

J-
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/10/09 11:20 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
you need to think of it like death. she is not coming back.


This is a worldy view. I refuse to believe this one.

Kevin


"worldy view" ?

are we not living in the real world here?

20 pages of scripture quotes, talk of fishing lures and the same ol' same ol' ago she was telling you of her belly dancing classes and boyfriends. Do you not understand why she is so comfortable talking about that with you? She has moved on. She's either wanting you to be happy for her for her new life or treating you like a gay friend. SMcQ
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/10/09 01:15 PM
Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
What happens in 20 years from now when your daughter comes to you and tells you she wants to divorce her selfish, alcoholic husband. She's had enough of his lies and promises and cant do it anymore. What will you tell her? Truthfully... NOT what you would like to hear...
PMA


What is your answer?


Still nothing???? This is really important for you to see this...
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/10/09 01:41 PM
Quote:
What happens in 20 years from now when your daughter comes to you and tells you she wants to divorce her selfish, alcoholic husband. She's had enough of his lies and promises and cant do it anymore. What will you tell her? Truthfully... NOT what you would like to hear...
PMA


I would tell her to separate and pray for a while until he cleans himself up. But I would not tell her to divorce.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/10/09 03:46 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D

I would tell her to separate and pray for a while until he cleans himself up. But I would not tell her to divorce.
Kevin


I'm not talking about divorce either. We are all talking about SEPERATING and giving SPACE and TIME as requested by her.

You know this already. Why am I even saying it.

Just keeping on going to AA and C and working on the addictive personality that has no patience.

Let Go and Let God Brotha. LIVE THIS!!!

PMA
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/10/09 04:31 PM
Kevin,

One thing at a time. Notebook. Journal. Fishing stuff. Fish. Class? One thing at a time.

Don't twist, don't cave. You want to stand for your marriage. I understand. But, you don't stand for your marriage by standing still. Get out of God's way and work on you.

Call anytime.

KJ
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/10/09 05:27 PM
I'm picking up the journals this weekend. Tonight is meet the teacher night at D11's school. W and I will both be there for that.

We had some interaction last night as I went with her to pick up our van that we decided not to trade in. She is pretty much in her own world. I am hardly an existance to her unless it has to do with the kids or she needs something like getting the van.

D11 has 7 teachers, so I am not exactly sure how that is going to work. I guess we will see.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/10/09 06:02 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
We had some interaction last night as I went with her to pick up our van that we decided not to trade in. She is pretty much in her own world. I am hardly an existance to her unless it has to do with the kids or she needs something like getting the van.

D11 has 7 teachers, so I am not exactly sure how that is going to work. I guess we will see.
Kevin


Bingo!!! Sounds like you should be following her example...

Stay strong.

Enjoy your girls!!!

PMA
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/10/09 06:30 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I She is pretty much in her own world. I am hardly an existance to her unless it has to do with the kids or she needs something like getting the van.

Right. B/C she isn't married to you, in her eyes. The legal divorce is merely a financial hassle and formality at this point. And she'll always have to deal with you about the kids b/c divorced or married, that is the right thing.

D11 has 7 teachers, so I am not exactly sure how that is going to work. I guess we will see.

This is normal for a back to school night, as my 12 y/o also has 6-7 teachers. What's your question? Typically, you will attend your d's classes in their order (FIRST you'll listen to the PTA), then listen to the teacher's presentations and listen to the teacher's plans and expectations for the coming year. You meet the teacher face to face if you can, you tell the teachers to call you anytime they need your support at home OR if they (the teachers) notice your d needs more help or is misbehaving. This is typical parental stuff. I went alone when h was on call and when he left. That makes it most years. Missed last year's due to deaths in the family. This year we'll go together and that'll be nice. I don't understand your confusion unless you've never been to one of these. OR, dear God, is it b/c you'll have to be around your wife? Can't you focus on your d's education for an evening?

Kevin


I asked you a question in my last post. IT's really important. Please don't keep ignoring it as it's rude to me and reveals a remarkable lack of insight on your part, at this point in this process. IN sum, You have problems Kevin.
When are you going to get help for them? Your underlying depression still lurks within, and the obsessive behavior is making your whole life worse; it effects so much. It's been almost a year. And YOU have not gotten c or T. That's stunning. Who else here has NOT gone to see IC? (I mean more than once). I bet I could count on one hand. Plus you admitted you had a life time problem with "Not knowing how to be happy...".

Get some real help for your main problems...Come on, like I asked you, what's it going to take?
j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/10/09 09:43 PM
Quote:
The question is how long you will keep this up?

I asked you a question in my last post. IT's really important. Please don't keep ignoring it as it's rude to me and reveals a remarkable lack of insight on your part, at this point in this process. IN sum, You have problems Kevin.

Get some real help for your main problems...Come on, like I asked you, what's it going to take?
j-


I'm not trying to be rude 25. I just don't have the answer right now.

I have been doing a lot of thinking and contemplating lately. I have also been busy with work and the kids.

I'm trying to think this through as I held out hope for almost a year while having huge down moments. I guess after a year of seeing nothing change, and yes, I haven't exactly been full of change myself... I'm just questioning things.

I don't really have answers for you. I don't have answers for myself. I have made mistakes this past year and tried to pick myself back up. I guess foolishly I had hoped that this would end by the time my lease is up. But I don't see that happening now. I guess I had hoped that this would really just be a long phase that comes to an end. But I am not seeing that right now either. I guess it is dawning on me that this really is not just a phase. Not that you all haven't already said that many times before. I just didn't want to believe that it could keep up as long as it has and then some. I didn't think it would last a year. Now I have no idea how long this will go. There is no time table anymore. I played the waiting game and it was the wrong move.

Even my dad told me last night it is time to move on and put it in God's hands after a year now. He is not saying give up. He is just saying what you all have said in start figuring out what I enjoy without her. I can't keep going like this and waiting around. The few times when there might have even been a remote possibility of her letting her guard down and warming up, I eventually blew it again. She hasn't let her guard down in some time now.

My dad suggested getting back into fantasy football, watching the Dallas Cowboys, going and playing poker, immersing myself into my girls lives, etc. Its time to stop waiting. I talked to KJ (aka Wifey) on the phone last night and I am thinking about possibly going back to school. I think I already missed the starting semester. But I could get myself prepared for the winter/spring semester.

I think the hardest part is not knowing what my future holds and I'm not real sure how to get where I want in my future.

I think sometimes I feel overwhelmed by everything I think I need to accomplish and I'm not sure how to go about all of it.

I think I feel like I need to get a better career, a house, a retirement, a newer car, build muscles, excercise, find a hobby I like, do AA, C, keep my girls in C, attend all of their stuff, go to school, and some how have friends, and get involved in church. My parish is very small and it is hard to meet people when they don't have any classes or much activities going on.

Kevin

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/11/09 12:02 AM

I'm not trying to be rude 25. I just don't have the answer right now.


I don't really have answers for you..... I guess I had hoped that this would really just be a long phase that comes to an end. But I am not seeing that right now either. I guess it is dawning on me that this really is not just a phase. Not that you all haven't already said that many times before. I just didn't want to believe that it could keep up as long as it has and then some.

Even my dad told me last night it is time to move on and put it in God's hands after a year now. He is not saying give up. He is just saying what you all have said.....
My dad suggested getting back into fantasy football, watching the Dallas Cowboys, going and playing poker, immersing myself into my girls lives, etc. Its time to stop waiting.... I am thinking about possibly going back to school.
I think [i]the hardest part is not knowing what my future holds and I'm not
real sure how to get where I want in my future.
I think sometimes I feel overwhelmed by everything I think I need to accomplish and I'm not sure how to go about all of it.[/i]
I think I feel like I need to get a better career, a house, a retirement, a newer car, build muscles, excercise, find a hobby I like, do AA, C, keep my girls in C, attend all of their stuff, go to school, and some how have friends, and get involved in church. My parish is very small and it is hard to meet people when they don't have any classes or much activities going on.

Kevin


Kevin [/quote]

So you know, most of us have the same things going on as you do, although we are not overwhelmed by it. This is noteworthy. Kevin, I'm in need of a car within a week of today. I need a full time job here, and I aim for another degree in a totally new field just b/c I love it, but I need a credential for public schools here, I am on a diet now, and have to exercise more, I have a husband and children who like time spent together so that's pleasantly time consuming, I have a serious passionate avocation on the side, I am finishing a small (but for me, meaningful), book, I hope by Christmas. And I have one dying family member left, as well as many healthy people whom I love in my life. They all need attention. Also have numerous house projects, must somehow pay bills though mil is dying and H must take off work to see her at times and is not paid for that family leave, must argue with some of the bill senders, and attend things our older children are involved in and meet their "special new friends", and have to pay college tuition, and make sure all of the children stay in touch and that we visit our out of town son, and the rest of our family and friends while also building this new career and and and......This is called "having a full life" and for the most part it is a rich blessing. You have the freedom to change your life. BUT...

Your feelings of being overwhelmed are at the root of SOME of your behavioral issues. If you were not so overwhelmed, you'd function much better, you would not be paralyzed, you would control your emotions better when your neediness starts rising again. You'd have something other than stbxw to focus on, and not just the girls either.

All of this, literally, has been said to you before. Nothing new or revelatory here. Classes, hobbies, exercise, joining others in various ways---all been said before. Especially the schooling part b/c it covers meeting other people, doing something constructive for your career, helping you financially & getting your mind off your stbxw, but yeah, you' heard it before. (Rather than ruling it out already for this semester, call a community college or anything with rolling admissions and OR a trimester system, to see if you can go this month, or start by Thanksgiving.)

But still, the reason for such paralysis is what concerns me. By avoiding THAT inability to function, you set yourself up again for a big let down.

So really it is about when you'll get help so that normal (and "not so normal") life events, don't overwhelm you in a way that creates more chaos & stress or stagnation.

By now I thought you'd be sick and tired, of feeling sick and tired, and you are. But your response to that was what makes things worse. Instead of movement and change within, You just clung harder and then made God responsible for your happiness.

Do as those who care have suggested, but get the help you need first, or we're all wasting our time and yours.There's nothing shameful about needing tools you don't have. Get the help Kevin.

What do you think others here did to feel better? My marriage was twice as long as yours & I married my h in college. Yeah I was afraid! I took my kids to c, for them, and we took trips & did fun things without h, etc but JUST FOR ME aside from classes, and meeting new people, and travel without h---I had a great pro-M T, (who also prepared me for becoming single again, w/o feeling terrified), AND I had a great DB coach too, AND I talked to clergy AND I joined a support group, AND I came here, AND read everything I could...that's what I did for the family stuff but I took classes and began a whole new life pursuit and oh, I changed. A LOT.

I guess you could say "gee 25, what a lot of work!"...but I felt better doing all this. Mostly it didn't feel like "Work", it felt [il]ike healing[/i]. Obviously it was worth it now, but even then, it's not like I was digging in hot tar on a skyscraper's roof in boiling hot weather (My brother's description of the world's hardest work). No, I was learning about myself and God and life, and how to move on and grieve through something and how to HEAL & FORGIVE and be happy....I have tools for so much more now, not just my m.

Get some help and stop fearing it so much. Your life would be a lot easier in the long run and I daresay in the short run too.

Your stbxw says and acts as if, it's over. She has been consistent with that for the whole time and has sent no serious signals to the contrary, nor has she once expressed doubt about her course of action (unless you count civility, which I don't). You wanted to avoid any timelines b/c you said you'd "stand forever" and it does sound appealingly simple. You would not have to change, and you could hang onto your pride and maybe even pontificate about being a "stander"... But maybe now you can tell yourself what we all have said, "it's okay to move on. Does not mean you gave up or aren't standing, and for the 78th time, moving on MIGHT be the way to earn her respect anyhow." eek

BTW The relatives I know who divorced and later remarried their former spouses --they all thought it was indeed over. AND they were right- their marriages were over! It took my cousin 5 years to reconcile and the Uncle took 8 years to reconcile with my aunt. BUT NO ONE WAS WAITING those years.....they all four moved on in their lives, and improved as individuals...as far as I know, all four got c of some sort and made changes in their lives. That's why it was better the 2nd time around and why it could occur in the first place. I don't know why you fear getting psychiatric/ psychological help so much. Please don't say it's the costs. Sliding scales all around--re-read CG's post and others who posted lists of "TO DO" things for you in the past and all the resources around.

Do you recall saying you "have never really been able to be happy" ?? That's HUGE. shocked

And it'd be at the TOP of my priority list in life...Until it is a real priority in yours, it just won't happen.
j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/11/09 02:33 AM
I think a major root of my problems is that I have always felt overwhelmed by things that other people seem to handle just fine. It does cause me paralysis and makes me want to avoid it. I think my lack of being able to organize effectively leads me into feeling overwhelmed. I have never had good organizational skills. Another complaint of my W.

I have always told her if she can direct, I will do the work when organizing things such as the house or the car for trips or whatever. This apparently didn't go over with her well over time.

She can look at a mess and clean it up and figure out where to put things. I can look at a mess and think geez, I have no idea where to start or put things. Overwhelmness kicks in for me.

It is the same way with multi tasking at work. If I get to many things at once, I am not really sure what order to do them in.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/11/09 02:38 AM
The other thing is I seem to have periods of memory loss this past year. People will say things whether it be my W, or friends, or at work and I just flat out won't remember at all. Even when they remind me, I still don't recall the conversation. I don't know if it is due to stress or feeling overwhelmed or just that my focus is not always there or what. But I have noticed this and it has been pointed out to me.

Don't get me wrong, I am focusing on my work. But it just seems to be conversations that I can't seem to retain at times.

I have also been told that these meds can affect your memory as well, so it could be partially that.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/11/09 02:52 AM
Quote:
I am finishing a small (but for me, meaningful), book, I hope by Christmas.


You are writing a book? Are you going to publish it?

Kevin
Posted By: breakaway Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/11/09 02:54 AM
Maybe you have ADHD. Ask a doctor who knows about adult ADHD. Or google it. Feeling overwhelmed like that and not being able to prioritize tasks is a common symptom.
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/11/09 04:54 AM
Kevin - 25 wrote a great post.

There is nothing wrong with going to see a counselor, life coach or psychiatrist to help analyze some of your faults and learn methods to eliminate or cope with them. Likewise, if you do have some ADD or ADHD, there are many who have overcome these obstacles.

We are all pulling for you.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/11/09 05:27 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I think a major root of my problems is that I have always felt overwhelmed by things that other people seem to handle just fine.
Is living like this okay with you? You've been here about a year? How long have we discussed YOU getting help for this basic fundamental problem? Most of the time...

It does cause me paralysis and makes me want to avoid it.
IS that okay with you? How long will you "accept this trait, helplessly"? As if you have NO control over yourself AND cannot get help for it...I mean, the paralysis is to avoid conflict and pain -- and look where it got you...

I think my lack of being able to organize effectively leads me into feeling overwhelmed. I have never had good organizational skills. Another complaint of my W.

Everyone has some faults. Deal with the underlying stuff so you can fine tune things the way YOU want to, later. Your inability to make yourself happy is a big stinking problem and worse, it's unattractive, which makes your other problems worse.

I have always told her if she can direct, I will do the work when organizing things such as the house or the car for trips or whatever. This apparently didn't go over with her well over time. (No, I imagine it would not. I don't know women who are attracted to this trait. Some women will run over a man for awhile, or stick around for a bit, but they are rarely happy and rarely stay with a man who's life they must run, or who isn't an equal partner at least...This insight of yours must lead to action.)

It is the same way with multi tasking at work.
Kevin


So...are you going to get help or not? You just admitted that you have problems OTHER than your wife being gone. Problems that contributed to her being gone AND slow or stop you from moving on in life. SO, what are you going to do about it? Ask yourself how miserable you have to feel and for how long, before you'll DO something healthy for yourself that means true change...well?
j-
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/11/09 06:55 PM
Kevin,

You can do this....listen to 25. I have faith in you.

I hope both you and 25 can hop over to my thread, D finally got a letter from H. This is the second one but he never wrote her back from like 3 weeks ago. She is so excited.

Thanks guys if you get the time.

Just looking for some insight.

Lost
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/12/09 08:22 PM
Lost41-
I thought I posted a long reply to you a few days back. Maybe a week or so....

I'll double check...glad to hear D got a response though.
J-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/12/09 08:43 PM
Quote:
So...are you going to get help or not? You just admitted that you have problems OTHER than your wife being gone. Problems that contributed to her being gone AND slow or stop you from moving on in life. SO, what are you going to do about it? Ask yourself how miserable you have to feel and for how long, before you'll DO something healthy for yourself that means true change...well?


I am. I am focusing on my future and taking care of what I need to now.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/13/09 12:52 PM
I think she was asking in what ways are you getting help. Not generic focuses. Those didn't seem to help you much.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 02:27 AM
I don't really know. I just know that my focus seems to be getting better lately. I seem to be able to start blocking things out of my mind now and focusing on one thing at a time. I am probably just surpressing things, but it is allowing me to do what I need to be doing at each moment.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 02:47 AM
Kevin,
I don't think I've posted on you thread before but I've read most of it. You have many people who are interested in seeing you through your issues. However, they can only go so far. You need to see someone in the real world. What you may find is that you are completely normal. Even if that is the case there are still things an IC can help you work through. Don't mess around with this. When your cars not working correctly you take it to the mechanic. Not saying your broken but you need an expert to help you on your journey.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 05:32 AM
Originally Posted By: stuck808
I think she was asking in what ways are you getting help. Not generic focuses. Those didn't seem to help you much.


exactly. As in, professional help. K4, there's no shame in needing professional help. We are not all equipped for all things, and sometimes life throws us a curve ball we don't have the tools for, OR throws us more than one at a time.[i] I am one of those people who got professional help, so I know how important it is for you to stop being this miserable and lonely for this long. [/i] You have had longstanding problems with depression before all this happened, which may have lead to your drinking, and you still avoid making hard choices, and you still want others to make them for you. This is not helping you at all.
There are a hundred examples on this thread, of a fundamental inability of yours, to move forward or to truly change, from within. Bandaid approaches are just that, bandaids for a sucking chest wound that needs much more treatment. No one seems to be able to reach you or if we do, we don't for very long. I don't think it's willful on your part. But that feeling you have of being "overwhelmed by normal events" is by definition, not normal.

So yeah, when I say "work on you," I mean for you to get some serious analysis or therapy or counselling --or better yet a full work up, to rule out physiological problems along with behavioral, and start getting better.

That's what I mean. I think you have emotional problems that are not getting better and as bad as we ALL have felt at times here, you have been stuck in the same pattern for too long and it's hurting your "cause" and it's probably not too great for your kids to watch.

Plus, don't you want more from life? If I felt as lonely and sad and bored as you sound on your posts, I would do just about any damn thing I could, to stop feeling that bad and start healing.
I am sure of this.

j-
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 08:08 AM
do you still talk to your priest friend? I agree with 25 in that you need to actually talk to someone. Kind of like a sponsor in AA. You really need one and just reading the bible alone isn't cutting it.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 02:13 PM
Yes, I spoke to my priest friend on Friday. My appointments with him have been changed to Fridays since D11 has choir on Mondays now.

And believe me, yes I am sick to death of feeling this way. I am sick to death of being lonely and in limbo about my life. I am also sick to death of my kids having to go through this. It is unfair to them and their mom has really become very hard nosed about everything in life. And the whole image thing has just moved to new levels with her. She is becoming more and more like her mom all the time. Her mom is a very miserable person with huge emphasis on image and money. It has really gotten to the point of ridiculous.

This past saturday I took D7 to a new dance class. She danced for a good portion of it and I guess then got a little intimidated because the kids were older than her. She is 7 and it is a class for 8 to 10 year olds. But D7 is so tall her mom put her in there. Well W shows up and D7 was sitting over in the corner towards the end. This didn't go over well with W. She said that is unacceptable and we need to tell her that. I said wooa. This is her first time in this class. She danced most of it. Give her a chance to get comfortable before you start telling her what is acceptable and what isn't. Let her ease her way into it. W didn't say anything to D7 about it after I said that. But its things like this that are just constant about W feeling like everyone has to ask how high if she says jump. There are other examples to. That is just one of them. She is a major control freak. She signed D11 up for a solo without asking D11 if she wanted to first. D11 had to come to me and tell me she didn't want the solo. I told D11 that she needs to let her mom know then. She just takes it upon herself to assume what everyone should be doing without asking people, especially the kids. It drives me batty.

Last night I dropped off the kids at W's house. D7 had decided she wanted to get dressed in her pajamas and head over. So I let her. I get them over there and W says that is unacceptable and that they are going out to dinner with her mom and the kids needs to be dressed properly. She even made D11 change who was wearing a dress. Well, nobody had told me they were going out to dinner and D7 usually is dressed.

W put a garage door opener on the house that is finger print oriented. I guess she wants to make sure I cannot access the house. It is also a security feature.

I don't know. I wish she would wake up and realize the issues she is causing in all of this. The kids are going to have a maimed version of love for her as this goes on, not an admiralble love. She herself has a maimed version of love for her parents because of them pulling the same stunts when she was a kid and she doesn't even realize it. Our kids could have an admirable love for her, but she is killing that.

I'm not pinning all the blame on her. I have my own issues which everyone knows about that I am having to work through. One thing I noticed is that W constantly has to be active in some form of way. She can't ever just relax mentally. And she has admitted this. She stays up til the wee hours of the morning and has for years either chatting, working, cleaning, something, being on the go with friends, family, shopping anything to keep from slowing down. And she has told me that she cannot shut her mind down and I personally witness it. But now it has really moved into total control freak mentality and disgust for those that aren't in agreement with her.

I don't know.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 02:16 PM
I have my birthday coming up in 2 weeks on September 27. Not sure what I am going to do. But I am pretty sure it won't involve W. It sure would be nice to ML on that day like I got to last year while this was going on. But I am pretty sure that won't be offered and I won't be asking for it. I will spend part of the day with my girls and then probably that night just go to dinner with friends or something.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 02:39 PM
It looks like Retrouvaille worked for Orich. I would be so blessed to even get my W to think about attending the one coming up here. She is so hard nosed against anything or anyone that isn't in complete agreement with her stance. She is a tough one. If only her parents had never divorced, I would have a lot more going for me in my favor. I knew I was taking this risk when I married her though even though she convinced me she didn't believe in it and it was never an option no matter what.

Kevin
Posted By: breakaway Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 02:59 PM
Kevin...you have the mindset of a stalker. I don't mean you're dangerous, but your inability to let go of this person and stop concentrating on blaming her for not being in your life is how stalkers think. Doesn't matter if she was your wife.

She is a SEPARATE PERSON.

You say you've been to some AA meetings, have you done any reading or thinking of the 12 steps? Read them and substitute "your wife" for the word "alcohol."
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 03:48 PM
Kevin,

As you know I know the feeling of remarried IL's. And you are right if the parents are divorced it doesn't help us at all.
Kevin, at least you got something on your last birthday. LOL

I haven't had anything since Oct. Going out of my mind. LOL

Can you hop over to my thread? Wish I knew how to attach it to these messages.

K
Posted By: missmyfriend Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 04:08 PM
Kevin,

First, I would agree that you should talk with a counselor, preferably a Christian counselor, not a counselor that is a Christian, if that makes sense. I have been related to a lot of alcoholics so I know that most drink because they are searching for something to make their depression go away. If you have had an issue with drinking, you have probably been depressed for a long time.

We all have issues. The important thing is to confront your issues and, in most cases, you need someone's help to do it. And then, you need someone to stay by your side, supporting you.

Regarding your M, and your faith, believing that God will heal your M, is something you are probably receiving from the Holy Spirit. I have questioned myself many times to make sure that this is not my own wishful thinking or if God has put it on my heart that He will heal my M...someday.

My biggest challenge to overcome is control. We have free will but God asks us to turn our free will over to Him and let go of control. He knows better than anyone what is best for Kevin and Kevin's family. He first wants you to trust Him completely, in every area of your life. Scripture supports this throughout the Old and New Testament. You should avoid taking back what you have given Him to take care of. If you make mistakes (we all do), you are likely delaying what God will do in your life. The reason is that your R with God has to be more important than anything else. If it isn't, what is your reason for a R with God? Is it to get your family back? If it is, He knows that. If you are having trouble with belief, remember the scripture in Mark 9:14-32 where the man comes before Jesus to have an evil spirit removed from his son and in Mark 9:23-24 Jesus says, "'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes." Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"

This father was real! He admitted, while he believed, he knew that he had some disbelief and asked for help. Kevin, if you are challenged with your belief, ask the Lord to help you with it. He understands. He knows our weaknesses. He knows everything. And He can soften your Ws heart as He has done with others (supported scripturally). You cannot do this directly but your W can witness the "real" changes in you.

You wondered how long your W can keep this up and I agree indefinitely. You have been married since '97 so how long may she have prayed that you would change? How long did she suffer? I am not taking her side. I am taking the side of your marriage.

If you have read about Hosea (he was a minor prophet) and Gomer, there are some excellent lessons to learn. Gomer was beautiful. Extremely beautiful and Hosea loved her deeply. They had a child together. Instead of staying home with her new family, Gomer started to go out, leaving Hosea to take care of the baby, while she partied and slept around. Gomer became pregnant and when the child was born, it was fairly obvious that it was not Hosea's. Gomer continued her ways and had another child, leaving Hosea to take care of three children. At this point, Gomer, probably in the throes of a MLC left her family and took up with another man. While I cannot tell you the details of how Hosea acted and reacted to this situation, I can tell you that he expressed sorrow.

When Hosea learned that his wife was living in less than ideal conditions, he confronted the man that Gomer was sleeping with and gave him food, clothing and perfumes and instructed the man not to tell Gomer where they came from. The man gladly took the items and credit for everything and gave them to Gomer. Gomer enjoyed the items but still left this man and became a temple priestess for a pagan god.

Most people would tell Hosea what a fool he was to wait for Gomer, that their marriage was over and that she would never return, and giving the gifts to the man sleeping with his wife was completely idiotic. God, however, instructed Hosea to continue being His prophet, to take care of the children and to wait...patiently.

A temple priestess wasn't much more than a whore, providing the priests and whomever they wanted to sleep with the priestesses. The priestesses exchanged their bodies for a life of leisure and plenty.

One day, Hosea came upon a slave auction and saw Gomer being readied for sale. He recognized her even though she was extremely thin, gray and her once beautiful face looked drawn and haggard. He still loved her and felt that he should win her in the auction. He ended up buying her freedom and, while others witnessing this said Hosea should not treat her well for what she had done, Hosea put her in fine clothes and led her in a cart back to their home. He had his staff clean her up, feed her and instructed them to treat her as the lady of the house. Gomer did not feel worthy of this expression of love. Hosea did it anyway. At the end of the book, Homer spoke lovingly and respectfully of his wife and how she was an incredible mother and wife.

This story was real. It wasn't a parable although it was a comparison to what happened between God and Israel. God didn't cause Gomer to leave. It was her choice but He was able to make good of what happened. And Hosea listened to the Lord and was patient. Apparently years went by from the time the children were small until she came back with grey in her hair and the children nearly full grown.

When I read this story, it would have been easy to think of me as Hosea and my wife as Gomer. And maybe that is somewhat accurate but not completely. I was nowhere the faithful servant to God that Hosea was or even close to being as good a father or husband as Hosea. God uses situations to help people become more like who He wants them to be -- more Christ like. I believe that I have changed but I know I need to change more in order to be the man God wants me to be as a Christ follower, a father and a husband. I know that I have to move toward selfless acts just like Jesus did when He was crucified and killed on the cross on Calvary before I can be prepared to be in a daily marriage again. I will never be perfect. I can't but I will try to do whatever He wants to please Him and not anyone else. If I can, I will know more joy in my life. And if I allow God to work in my life, He can soften my Ws heart to Him, which is more important than my M.

Kevin, this is a journey. A never ending one. And like most journeys it helps if you have a good leader on your journey. Let Him be your guide. Trust Him completely.

If you aren't reading the bible daily, do so. It is an instruction manual and as I heard in a good move, a love letter.

"Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path" Psalm 119:105

Don't stumble around in the darkness. Cling to Him.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 06:51 PM
MMF,

I know the story of Hosea. It is infact one of my main inspirations. Like you, I was neither as close to God as I should have been either. But I am working on being as close to God as possible and letting him work things out. I am not interfering with my W and His plan. I am not taking it back. Just because I pray for her and us and I happen to notice things or she says things when we are together or I happen to think about her at times when we are not does not in any way at all mean that I am taking it back over.

I work on prayers that I can say at different times of the week. I pray daily and I stay out of it.

I pray that God brings her out of this and changes me and restores our M and family. I'm not giving up on her and our family. And I am doing what I need to be doing in the mean time.

I have an audio bible that I try to listen to at nights as well to get in his word as much as possible.

This morning was weird because I started to wake up thinking she was there like she always was and of course, she wasn't. But it was just strange as I was slowly coming awake. It almost felt like she was there beside me briefly while my eyes were closed. I had a dream last night that she told me she was not coming back. But I have also had 2 dreams where she told me we are back together. I am not sure what either mean if anything at all. This of course is over several months that these dreams occured.

The apartment was quiet this morning and felt empty as I got ready for work. I am always happy to get out of there when nobody is there.

I have D7 tonight which I am looking forward to again.

Lost41, I will jump over there shortly.

breakaway, I am not stalking her at all. Just because I think about her and our situation does not mean I am stalking her.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 07:04 PM
I think breakaway means you're developing a stalker's mindset. From your post about your dreams, etc. sure sounds like it.

I think you need to re-read, seriously re-read your own posts. You are still blaming your W for your current sitch. You're still asking "why" she doesn't she, or "why" she can't come back, and all the blame on the ILs. You really need to "let go" of all these ill feelings. Give them up to God if you need to, but you have to get rid of them. That's what's eating you up. These constant ups and downs are what's wearing you down.

You get on a high talking about God, how you're standing, etc. Then the next day you complain about how pathetic your life is. You want only positives? Well right now there aren't any because you still aren't digging your way out of the hole you're in. Get help and you'll start doing that.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 07:12 PM
Just one other little note. I asked my priest if it was selfish to pray for my marriage to be restored and he said no, it isn't. That is something God created and we should want our marriage's to be restored. It is what is best for families.

Kevin
Posted By: breakaway Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 07:21 PM
thanks stuck...that's what I meant.

Kevin, let me say it another way, although I don't know why I am, because I know it won't make any difference...

YOU'RE OBSESSED WITH HER. IMO, she has ceased to even be a person in your mind, she is an object you are obsessed with having. Furthermore, your expectations seem to be that of six year old!

I have HAD someone obsessed with me. Even a restraining order could not get through to this person that I DID NOT WANT A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM. He could go through pages and pages of why that was unreasonable of me, and whose fault it was. He could not accept that I DID NOT WANT A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM. He thought God thought we should be together.

Even after going to court he found me in public and asked me if I could just "forgive" him and come back.

THIS is how you are acting!!!!!!

It's not selfish to pray for your family to be restored. But after a YEAR you are not accepting that your wife DOES NOT WANT A RELATIONSHIP with you. If you want to "stand" forever, then do so, but ACCEPT that she is set on her course right now.

And, no, she is not going to offer to ML on your birthday, and the fact that you said you aren't going to ask for it, which would be insane at this point, tells me you are indeed THINKING OF ASKING. I hope you don't.

Why don't you take this new closeness to God and serve him for a while and STOP OBSESSING. If you CAN'T STOP OBSESSING you need a doctor. Like yesterday.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 07:43 PM
breakaway, I accept that she does not want a relationship with me right now. I don't know how I have lead anyone to believe otherwise.

And I am not going to ask to ML on my birthday. The mere thought from remembering last year crossed my mind as far as a memory goes. But I am not stupid enough to ask for it again.

Sheesh, I say anything about my W and I am obsessing about her and need major help. My gosh. Like nobody thinks about their S when going through this.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 07:46 PM
It is not like I am constantly thinking about her. I just simply rehashed some things that have happened lately in the past few months. But if I post anything about her at all... OMG!!! I am mentally stocking her.

Cmon yall, give me a break.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 07:52 PM
breakaway,

Were you married to that man or was he just a boyfriend?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 08:05 PM
I am standing for our covenant marriage. And I do know that it is God's will for it to be restored. And I do hope my W's heart softens eventually. God created marriage. 1 man and 1 woman for life. He made us one flesh partners when we got married. He does not support divorce. I am not going to go into the whole spill again.

He does expect us to forgive each other and always work on our marriage. He says it is ok for us to separate for a time and pray and then he tells us to come back together.

All this aside, I know very well where I stand in my covenant marriage at this time.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 08:10 PM
I believe you K. But maybe God is using this as a way to change you to be the man he needs you to be.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 08:11 PM
There are 3 reasons why I want her back in any particular order. Here they are.

1) I don't want my kids having to finish growing up in a broken home. That isn't fair to them. Plus, D continues to set a precedence in the family if this happens and can very well affect their own future M's.

2) I don't want my W living in adultery which is what she will be doing if she decides to remarry another man. I don't want her to have to face judgement for that. I worry about her.

3) I do love her and care about her and I do miss her. Our family is very important and special. It just needs to be recessitated in whatever God's timing is.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 08:12 PM
Quote:
I believe you K. But maybe God is using this as a way to change you to be the man he needs you to be.


C-Bart,

I hope he is.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 08:40 PM
I think you just re-enforced everyone's idea that you really need to let go let God.

"I don't want my W living in adultery which is what she will be doing if she decides to remarry another man. I don't want her to have to face judgement for that. I worry about her."

This isn't about what YOU want. It's what SHE wants. If she wants to live in eternal sin, then that's HER choice. It sucks but it is HER choice. Change that thinking. It's stuff like that that make you SOUND like a stalker. Geez no one said you were. We said you were beginning to sound like one.

It's the obsessive thinking for the object of desire that is the basis of stalking.
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 08:50 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
I believe you K. But maybe God is using this as a way to change you to be the man he needs you to be.


C-Bart,

I hope he is.

Kevin

I have to admit going through and thinking exactly how you are now. Could have written the list myself. However, once I stepped back and evaluated things it became evident that I was hiding behind my M so I wouldn't have to change. I was drowning out God telling me to change using his words against him. I claimed with all the bravado I could muster "I am doing it for you".

No one is telling you to give up on your family - just to change your style. Be a true leader through action, working on yourself, not words.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 09:53 PM
Ugg...

Even some of my friends today are telling me they are worried about me.

This is nuts. Am I not supporting myself and taking care of my responsibilities? I am doing everything that is expected of me.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 09:55 PM
Quote:
If she wants to live in eternal sin, then that's HER choice. It sucks but it is HER choice.


Stuck, it is her choice. I am not arguing the point. But aren't we supposed to pray for those that are going down a path that isn't good for them? I am not interfering with her. But I am praying for her.

Kevin
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 10:08 PM
Oh, God help me, I'm posting here but really, listen Kevin-

Quote:
But aren't we supposed to pray for those that are going down a path that isn't good for them?


No sane woman will want a husband who feels entitled to judge and determine what is good for her. This is the hard lesson you are being forced to learn. It is cruel and ironic but it is reality.
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/14/09 11:03 PM
Quote:
I am doing everything that is expected of me.


No you are not.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 12:20 AM
Praying for her is great! Nothing wrong with that. Praying for yourself and your Ds is also great! But pray for her healing, pray for her safety, pray for job, just don't keep praying about when she's coming back. You're putting the cart before the horse.

"I am doing everything that is expected of me."

No you're not. There are NO expectations other than the ones you put on yourself. You admitted yourself that you've got problems with multi-tasking. You look at the list of things you want to do or fix yourself and you get so overwhelmed that you end up shutting down.

Take things one at a time. Write your goals or to do list down in order of easiest to hardest to do. Then cross them out ONE AT A TIME.

The hardest thing is to take the first step.
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 12:30 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Ugg...

Even some of my friends today are telling me they are worried about me.

This is nuts. Am I not supporting myself and taking care of my responsibilities? I am doing everything that is expected of me.

Kevin

Listening yet?
Posted By: breakaway Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 02:14 AM
Let's look back

Originally Posted By: K4D

The girls and I are ready for us to be a family again. I am ready to come home and us work on our marriage.


She has made it abundantly clear that she is not waiting for you to be ready to come home (when haven't you been?) or to work on the marriage.

Quote:
This is no life for any of us. This isn't how it was meant to be.


She's made it abundantly clear that this IS the life for her. I'm sure when she thinks of the marriage she also thinks "this isn't how it was meant to be." Which is why she wants out.

Quote:
I am ready to step up to the plate to meet all of your needs and be the absolute best I can be for you.


Even though you are refusing to hear what she says, thereby proving you cannot do that. Showing you have not changed and therefore cannot be the absolute best you can be.

Quote:
Please consider this. Please soften your heart.

I forgive you for everything.


She doesn't want your forgiveness. She hasn't asked for your forgiveness. She wants to move on.

Quote:
There will be no questions asked and will never be anything brought up.

This is a silly statement to make and she knows that is not true.


I have simply open arms and unconditional love for you. I ask that you please forgive me to and allow us to start fresh and new. She DOESN'T WANT TO.[/quote]


Quote:
She didn't respond. I don't know why I sent it. I was just feeling lonely and tired of this whole situation.


The point of this is...NOT that you were feeling weak, but that you sent this letter AS IF she wants to "be a family again" when she has CLEARLY let you know she does not. After a year, you are telling her in this email that you will never get it. I'm surprised she has any communication with you at all! This is my point.

IMO, you are wrapping yourself up in a blanket of religion so you can firmly sink further into "magical thinking." There are REAL Christians who are divorced, Kevin. There are. Good, godly, Christian people who had spouses leave them and marry another. IT HAPPENS.

God allows these things to happen. God hates murder, Kevin, and people still get murdered. God hates child abuse, and children still get abused. God hates divorce....and people still get divorced, like it or not.

I am not saying God cannot restore a marriage, but your stubborn insistence, like a child, that your marriage WILL BE restored cuz daddy said so, and he's going to make your wife do what you want, is NOT being "faithful." Being faithful is trusting God no matter what the circumstances. It's continuing to trust Him and seek his will even though you cannot understand what is happening in your life.

The person God wants you to focus on is YOU, Kevin.

How are the 12 Steps going?
Posted By: Deep Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 02:27 AM
Kevin, I hope you don't mind my jumping in here with another 2 cents.

I know the sitch you are in can mind shattering, numbing, incessantly eating at you, it's not easy. I also have to say I can understand why some folks are really telling you to let go of what seems to be a near obsession.

Trust in God is one thing, but projecting that trust into a determination that God does not want your M to end is another. Much like for your W, you are even controlling what God should think and want for you? Just know that God wants the best for you and your M, whatever that may be, and leave it at that.

In the first 2 months of my sitch, I was a behaving a lot like you. I saw a C that was pro-family and recommended by Catholic organisations, first by myself, then with my WAW. I went almost mad at the last session. I remember whining about how it was all an infatuation, listing all the patently obvious facts and asking C to clear the fog from W. And C calmly asking me how I could know it wasn't true love? That smug look on W's face and my frustration at what I saw as C's validation of pure stupidity almost drove me over the edge.

C was in contact with me after that, telling me how I have to look after myself. I remember her asking me to decide if I really loved my W or if I viewed her as a possession another man was threatening. "No right or wrong answer Deep, just be honest, there's different ways of dealing with your problem for YOU depending on how you see things". Obviously, I was always going to say I love my W. "Then pray for her, for her to find happiness". Yeah ok, I could do that. "Good, and then trust in God and know that he may give her that happiness, and it may not be with you".

I was like "WTF?". I hated C then, in fact I never went back. Much later, I realised she was instilling some DB principles into me long before I even heard of the term.

Yes you want your M back and for it to work out, we all do. But you can't keep doing what you are doing.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 02:30 PM
Some great advice here. I hope you find it as enlightening as I have.

PMA
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 03:24 PM
Quote:
No sane woman will want a husband who feels entitled to judge and determine what is good for her.


A&K,

This bothers me. I am not judging her. The lifestyle she is leading is a sinful one full of darkness that ultimately only leads to destruction. I am praying that she come out of that lifestyle to seek Gods true word and will for her life. God doesn't lead people into adultery. He doesn't lead people to divorce. We are supposed to pray for those that are leading a life of sin.

Now before you go pointing at me. Yes, I need prayers to and I have my faults to that I am trying to work through and not lead the kind of life I used to anymore as well. So I am not pointing a finger at her. But I am praying for her to come out of this lifestyle. I also pray that I don't continue to fall into sin.

There is no judgement in that from me. I am not the judge of anyone. But I do pray for those including my W that have chosen the path of adultery that they will be turned away from that.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 04:00 PM
Kevin,

How are you today? I see that you are on the defensive in your last posts. I know from talking to you that you get overwhelmed by lists. So, just one question - did you buy notebooks for you and the girls to journal in?

KJ
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 04:08 PM
Hi KJ,

No, I forgot to buy the notebooks this past weekend. I will do that at some point this week. It just completely slipped my mind.

I'm not trying to be on the defensive. Just trying to... ah heck, I don't know what I am trying to do. I'm not sure why I bother speaking.

Kevin
Posted By: Dudess Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 04:41 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
No sane woman will want a husband who feels entitled to judge and determine what is good for her.

A&K,

This bothers me. I am not judging her. The lifestyle she is leading is a sinful one full of darkness that ultimately only leads to destruction.


Alrighty then. Good to know you aren't judging her. crazy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 05:02 PM
Quote:
Alrighty then. Good to know you aren't judging her.


How is that judging her? By praying for her that she doesn't continue down that path is judging her?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 05:05 PM
I am not condemning her. Therefore I am not judging her. I am praying for her.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 05:15 PM
Quote:
I'm not sure why I bother speaking.


Kevin not one person would post to you if they didn't care. We just see you doing the same things over and over and they're not working. You've probably got by far the most advice and some of the best, but you're not following through.

I know I've told you this before, addicts are all about instant gratification...You've got to get over that...

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 05:22 PM
Quote:
The lifestyle she is leading is a sinful one


Everyone's lifestyle is sinful. I understand you love your W and want her back but that quote is judging.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 05:52 PM
K - You are being judgemental. It's understandable. She lied to you and hurt you and betrayed you, but that is why you need to give that ALL up to GOD to burden. Not you! He is the one and only true judge. You are just not in CONTROL anymore and it sucks. Just LET GO!!! Pray to GOD for strength and guidance and respect BUT DONT pray for your WAW to come back. You might be praying against what God has planned for you. Just pray for God's light to shed on your life... You said you read and understood the story about Gomer... I was not nearly as strong... I judged and still judge my X for lying and cheating but it is not my place to do that... I prayed for Gods strength to let go and guide me to where Im supposed to go. I pray that you do the same...

LET GO AND LET GOD!!! STOP CHOOSING YOUR OWN PATH LET GOD GUIDE YOU!!!

PMA
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 05:52 PM
So by pointing out that she is leading a life of adultery which is in the bible and by praying for her not to is judging?

Yes, we all live sinful lifestyles, but we should strive not to and pray for each other. That isn't judging.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 06:02 PM
Excuse me for asking, but I dont get the whole judging thing. Is judging the same as having an opinion about what another is doing? Or is judging in Kevin's case only something god can do?

I think he is ok praying and wanting his wife to find a moral path in life, but he needs to find a balance so as to not obsess about it.

Kevin - I never thought in my life that I would ever need to see a counselor, but I ended up seeing one who helped me quite a bit.
Posted By: JayMan Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 06:05 PM
Just a quick theological point - the Bible says "judge not, so you won't be judged", but the literal translation of judging in that instance is determining someone's entrance into heaven or hell.

The Bible says stealing is a sin. If someone steals, they sin. If they commit adultery, the Bible (not me or you) say it's a sin. How is it judging to point that? Just sayin...

Now, for YOU, Kevin, stop worrying about the life she is living. You can't live it for her, you can't change her, you aren't responsible for her. My suggestion is this - the time you would normally spend thinking about the life she is living - turn that time into prayer for her, and see which is more effective. Worry or prayer?
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 06:08 PM
Does anyone else see what happened here? What started out as several people directing Kevin to focus on himself turned back to his W. I don't think this was an accident.

As long as WE focus on what is wrong with our spouse we can avoid looking at our own weaknesses. Sense we are on the topic of religion let's take a peak at Mathew 7:3-5.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 06:18 PM
C-Bart,

I am not putting myself above her. I have admitted TONS of times that I also have committed many sins and do to this day. While I try not to as best as possible, I still fall at times. The problem here is people are assuming that I am casting a stone at her and I am not. I am merely praying that she leave this life of adultery. I am not deciding her fate for her. I am not telling her where her destiny lies. I am not saying she is going to hell or heaven because of anything she has done. I am only praying that she quit living in that particular sin is all I am doing.

Somehow that got turned around on me into me judging her. I am not her judge nor will I ever be. Nor could I ever be as my own life has plenty of misteps in it. The difference is I am trying to not commit those sins in the future to the best of my ability knowing that I will fall now and then anyways. But I am not pursuing them. I am praying that she quit pursuing this sin. Huge difference between that and judging her for it.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 06:33 PM
K,
That's not what I'm saying. Judging or not judging is an interesting side bar conversation but it is distracting from the real issue(s). My point is WE, emphasis intended, focus on the faults of other people without focusing in on ourselves. Not sure why that is but in a R that is deadly. Not only does it create resentment but it puts focus on something we have no control over. You only have so much time and energy and if its focused on something you can not control it is wasted.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 06:35 PM
K - The bottomline is you need to LET GO!!!

Stop worrying about what she is doing. It is not healthy.

God has a plan for all of us and this might be his plan for her.

Let Go! and FOCUS on YOU NOT HER.

Period! That is ALL anyone is saying. FOCUS on YOU!!!

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change
;

courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time; Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will

That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 06:43 PM
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will direct your paths.

Proverbs 3, 5-6
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 06:47 PM
PMA,

I am familiar with that verse and that is something I try to do each day. I don't always succeed, but I try.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 06:53 PM
Now dont make me quote Yoda about trying... wink

I hear ya... No one said it was going to be easy.

God only gives you what you can handle... I just wish he didnt have so much damn confidence in me... grin

Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 06:56 PM
Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
Now dont make me quote Yoda about trying... wink

God only gives you what you can handle... I just wish he didnt have so much damn confidence in me... grin



lol. Now that there is funny!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 06:56 PM
That was funny PMA. grin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 07:04 PM
So back to DBing.

I am going out with some friends tonight. I am looking forward to that. I am not yet sure what my weekend holds without my kids. I'm sure it will begin to unfold as I get closer.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 08:18 PM
Kev saw this prayer and thought you might like it.


Dear Lord I pray again to you today.
To heal my marriage in your way.
To give me strength to stay the course.
Lord I don't want my marriage to end in divorce.
I want my child to have both of us.
To know you as the person to trust.
Help us both to see.
That this is something you meant to be.
What you have joined together let no one put asunder.
Break the bondage that Satan has put us under.
I believe in you word and trust what it says.
Lord I cry out to you, I lift up my hands.
Lord start the change in me.
Let my wife see You and your love through me.
Help us to forgive and move past all the pain.
Help us to love each other again.
She is flesh of my flesh, and bone of my bone.
Dear Lord help my wife come back.
I know through you is the only way.
Lord I pray this again today.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 08:20 PM
VD,

I am printing that out. Thanks. That is a great prayer. I think that covers everything.

I appreciate you giving that to me.

Kevin
Posted By: breakaway Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 09:14 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D


This past saturday I took D7 to a new dance class. She danced for a good portion of it and I guess then got a little intimidated because the kids were older than her. She is 7 and it is a class for 8 to 10 year olds. But D7 is so tall her mom put her in there. Well W shows up and D7 was sitting over in the corner towards the end. This didn't go over well with W. She said that is unacceptable and we need to tell her that. I said wooa. This is her first time in this class. She danced most of it. Give her a chance to get comfortable before you start telling her what is acceptable and what isn't. Let her ease her way into it. W didn't say anything to D7 about it after I said that. But its things like this that are just constant about W feeling like everyone has to ask how high if she says jump. There are other examples to. That is just one of them. She is a major control freak. She signed D11 up for a solo without asking D11 if she wanted to first. D11 had to come to me and tell me she didn't want the solo. I told D11 that she needs to let her mom know then. She just takes it upon herself to assume what everyone should be doing without asking people, especially the kids. It drives me batty.



I wanted to offer a kernel of insight about what she might be doing here. I think she's overcompensating because she's worried that the kids will be "overwhelmed with life" and sit in the corner, so to speak, and not get out there and take risks. Any behavior she sees in them that she is attributing to you, she is likely to overreact to. Especially if she perceives it as you possibly encouraging them to hang back if they are not comfortable, or not try if they are afraid.

I think it's always hard to find the balance with children, knowing when to push and when to back off, even without parent problems.

I say this because I was guilty of this myself recently. My youngest is the most like my H, and he's very dreamy and imaginative, but sometimes he goes into "pretending" something didn't happen as opposed to outright lying about it and it makes me crazy, because I am SO AFRAID he's going to be like his father and live in pretend land instead of taking responsibility for his actions. I wrote on my thread about an incident with a dead frog and I was so angry with my poor kid and that was why.

Maybe that's why she's acting like that.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 09:18 PM
That is good insight. I appreciate it.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/15/09 10:09 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
C-Bart,

I am not putting myself above her. I have admitted TONS of times that I also have committed many sins and do to this day. While I try not to as best as possible, I still fall at times. The problem here is people are assuming that I am casting a stone at her and I am not. I am merely praying that she leave this life of adultery. I am not deciding her fate for her. I am not telling her where her destiny lies. I am not saying she is going to hell or heaven because of anything she has done. I am only praying that she quit living in that particular sin is all I am doing. You really think that's where YOUR energy should be spent now? I mean if you were together and you had learned and grown and healed....I could see a comment like that....but it's a stalling technique of yours and a self righteous one at that. Oh, and a huge turn off too.

Oh come on. You are telling her (AND US) a lot of useless commentary and pointless debate about where her destiny lies, b/c by your implication, she's going to hell if she doesn't take you back. And when you skim over your past faults with feigned admissions of humility WHILE YOU CONTINUE HAVING THEM and avoid working on them...that's called hypocrisy.

That feeling of "being overwhelmed by life", that you've had for your whole life according to you, and dumping the duties and choices of life, onto your wife that you still prefer doing, is both unhealthy AND unfair of you. Why would your wife think things would be better with you now, when you still have the same problems? You can criticize her "controlling" nature all you want but you made her into a controlling woman b/c you refused to take charge of your family or marriage or yourself, and you admit you prefer not doing so even now...someone in your family had to make the tough choices and you said you preferred taking directions from her....(your words)

BUT here's the point I needed to make, Yet again you have misused faith to hide behind. You say the word "stand" so you can "stand" as in, STAND STILL AND NOT GROW OR CHANGE.....you said you were getting the audio version of the book I suggested, "Blue Like Jazz" (b/c you could not concentrate enough to read a book....sure K4, that's "well", especially a year after your bomb.....) but I don't think you have read it or you would not still be doing this same thing w/ religion. You are trying to "win" religious arguments about your w, when we're all supposed to help you get help for your sitch. But you won't take the help.

You are not healthy K4. Whenever THAT ISSUE COMES UP...you divert and deflect. How's that behavioral tool working for you? Is your life improving by not addressing your underlying problems? Still think you should spend all that energy on praying/obsessing/commenting about your wife or, maybe, could you just get yourself some real HELP?!

I think breakaway and stuck are dead on with their analysis. Get psychiatric help so your life can improve -- or it won't. You have to get help. You must get better emotionally and psychologically and all we're saying is you need more help than a priest is equipped to give you, let alone once a week.

Why would you feel the need to bring up your w's behavior, or your faith in God again, when that's all we're saying?
Oh yeah, I remember now. It deflects....diverts....so like I asked, how's that approach working in your life? (Sigh) You are either the most stubborn person I've "met" or you are just....

look there's no easy way to say it but the reason I say "you need help" is b/c I think you are emotionally disturbed, and have been for awhile. I'm sorry if that hurts. But there, I said it. If you are, and you stay that way, none of these other discussions matter...at all.

j-


Somehow that got turned around on me into me judging her. I am not her judge nor will I ever be. Nor could I ever be as my own life has plenty of misteps in it. The difference is I am trying to not commit those sins in the future to the best of my ability knowing that I will fall now and then anyways. But I am not pursuing them. I am praying that she quit pursuing this sin. Huge difference between that and judging her for it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/16/09 05:27 AM
I have obviously said to much about my personal life.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/16/09 05:55 AM
Kevin - If you feel uncomfortable about opening up here and getting some critical advice, please seriously consider looking into talking one on one with a therapist.

I personally believe that the Solution Focused Brief Therapy (SFBT) that MWD talks about in her books is your ticket to achieving a much happier life. I even had a couple of my own thread titles with the future looking theme ("Putting the Past Behind" and "Tomorrow is the most important thing in life").

Here is a start for SFBT in your area:

http://therapists.psychologytoday.com/rms/prof_results.php?city=Dallas&state=TX&s6=13
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/16/09 01:19 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I have obviously said to much about my personal life.
Kevin


Nope. It was long overdo that you talked to someone. Might as well be on an anonymous blog.

I agree with 25. Get the help you need. We all need help that is why we are on this site.

PMA
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/16/09 02:20 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I have obviously said to much about my personal life.

Kevin

Maybe. But please understand you have impacted many people on this forum in a positive way. Now we are trying to help you help yourself. That's the way it works.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/16/09 04:18 PM
Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
Originally Posted By: K4D
I have obviously said to much about my personal life.
Kevin


Nope. It was long overdo that you talked to someone. Might as well be on an anonymous blog.

I agree with 25. Get the help you need. We all need help that is why we are on this site.

PMA


I said in the previous post, there's no shame in needing help. I am a person who got clinically depressed after my dad died. I got help. It worked. You choose not to get help and then feel insulted when we don't get sucked into discussions about your wife. We want you to get well. You resist that. It's part of the problem you create in your own life. Calling her controlling after admitting you won't make a decision and you prefer for her to make them all, is a remarkable lack of insight on your end. After all this time, you still don't get it. So that's why I was so blunt. I've been there, where I had to have someone else tell me "25, you need to talk to someone professional" and within a day of hearing that, I did.
For the life of me, I don't know why you won't.
j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/16/09 06:45 PM
Quote:
For the life of me, I don't know why you won't.


I'm not rejecting it. Just trying to figure out how to best work it in.

Kevin
Posted By: frank_D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/16/09 07:01 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

I said in the previous post, there's no shame in needing help. I am a person who got clinically depressed after my dad died. I got help. It worked.


Same here. I had a lot of traumatic things happen, turned to alcohol and W left for her 'soulmate'. I got some help and things turned around but I didn't 'finish' the process of healing myself and we ended up back in the same place, only worse this time.

Your W doesn't matter any more. You need to clean you own house before you can tackle any other persons issues.
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/16/09 08:46 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
For the life of me, I don't know why you won't.


I'm not rejecting it. Just trying to figure out how to best work it in.

Kevin

As one who has been there, that's rejecting it.

You work it in, as Nike says, by just doing it. The first call is a hard on to make. Then you realize that it's what they do! They treat you with respect, they are really there to help. Go for it, Kevin!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/18/09 01:53 PM
Proverbs 3 Verses 5-7

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart, and lean not unto thine own understanding;

6 in all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths.

7 Be not wise in thine own eyes; fear the LORD and depart from evil.

I need to remind myself of this every day.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/19/09 11:06 PM
Tonight my girls and W are going to a balloon festival. I was not invited to join. No surprise.

I asked W if she would like to start doing things as a family with the kids. She said no, but thank you for asking.

I shouldn't have asked. But I guess I just wanted us to do stuff together as a family. I know the kids want that to.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/20/09 10:53 AM
"I shouldn't have asked. But I guess I just wanted us to do stuff together as a family. I know the kids want that to."

Let's be honest here. Sure the kids may want to, but more importantly, you want to. You still need your fix of your W. She's like a drug to you.

You have to break that dependency on her.

Have you been getting the help many people have said you should get?
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/20/09 04:05 PM
Stuck,
How does someone break an addiction to another person?
Posted By: frank_D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/20/09 05:35 PM
Originally Posted By: C-Bart
Stuck,
How does someone break an addiction to another person?

Stop taking the daily doses of them. I.E. lessen the contact.
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/20/09 06:01 PM
OK. What if the other person happens to be the mother of your three small children.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/20/09 11:07 PM
You don't break off contact. You be the absolute best you can be. Always be positive. Have your boundaries set. Make them reasonable boundaries. Simply ones of demanding to be shown respect. Nothing more.

I pray for my W and family each day. So for me, putting her out of my mind from here on out is not an option. But being able to live my life without having her around is a necessity. Being able to find ways to enjoy myself alone or with friends without my W being around is a must.

I spent most of yesterday alone. Today I didn't want to. So I hung out with a friend today after mass. I don't enjoy spending an entire week by myself. It will drive me crazy. An entire saturday is about as much as I can take.

Right now I am going through the bible. I started at the beginning with Genesis. I have the whole thing on CD. So that is what some of my time is used on when I am alone. I also feel like I am spending time with God when I am sitting there listening to it. I am going to try and complete the whole bible in the next 2 months. I put peice by peice on my mp3 player so I can listen to it in the car and at work. But it is no substitute over the long run for socialization and friendship at least for me.

Kevin
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/20/09 11:19 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Being able to live my life without having her around is a necessity. Being able to find ways to enjoy myself alone or with friends without my W being around is a must.


Hi Kevin.
What you say here is right as the mail! Try your darndest to do it...ask God to help you do it because, as you said above...it is a necessity and a must. These are things that we all (LBS) have to do. cool
Posted By: june72 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/20/09 11:26 PM
Kevin,
I have an expression for you

"Trust in God but tie your horse"

(I think the original was trust in Allah but tie your camel)

Does that make sense to you?
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/20/09 11:57 PM
Originally Posted By: volleydog
Kev saw this prayer and thought you might like it.


Dear Lord I pray again to you today.
To heal my marriage in your way.
To give me strength to stay the course.
Lord I don't want my marriage to end in divorce.
I want my child to have both of us.
To know you as the person to trust.
Help us both to see.
That this is something you meant to be.
What you have joined together let no one put asunder.
Break the bondage that Satan has put us under.
I believe in you word and trust what it says.
Lord I cry out to you, I lift up my hands.
Lord start the change in me.
Let my wife see You and your love through me.
Help us to forgive and move past all the pain.
Help us to love each other again.
She is flesh of my flesh, and bone of my bone.
Dear Lord help my wife come back.
I know through you is the only way.
Lord I pray this again today.



I like it. Thanks. I like this too...from Bridgestone...

As someone once told me: it will be ok in the end, if it's not ok... know it's not the end.

If you're a religious person... Remember…

The will of God will never take you;
Where the Grace of God cannot keep you,;
Where the arms of God cannot support you;
Where the riches of God cannot supply your needs,
Where the power of God cannot endow you.

The will of God will never take you;
Where the spirit of God cannot work through you,;
Where the wisdom of God cannot teach you;
Where the army of God cannot protect you;
Where the hands of God cannot mold you.

;The will of God will never take you;
Where the love of God cannot enfold you;
Where the mercy of God cannot sustain you;
Where the peace of God cannot calm your fears;
Where the authority of God cannot overrule for you.

The will of God will never take you;
Where the comfort of God cannot dry your tears;
Where the Word of God cannot feed you,&;
Where the miracles of God cannot be done for you,
Where the omnipresence of God cannot find you;
-Author Unknown
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/21/09 06:01 PM
K4
So you won't get any professional help for your underlying problems, right? I mean is the scriptural reference supposed to allay our concerns? It didn't allay mine. It left me speechless.

It's exactly the same shield you've used before, to deflect away from your low self esteem and long standing depression.

I just want to be clear so I know what you are saying. You are choosing to read the bible and pray, in lieu of getting other help as well and I guess it's because you think if you have enough faith, you won't need other help.??

So if you break a leg falling, will you pray for it to be restored and do nothing else, or will you go to a hospital and get a cast? I'm not mocking you. I'm asking if that is what you believe. B/C I see resources placed in front of you as gifts from God, which you are refusing to access, either out of pride or fear. But that's just my take.
j-
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/21/09 06:20 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Being able to find ways to enjoy myself alone or with friends without my W being around is a must.

One thousand four hundred and thirty five groups in your area...

http://www.meetup.com/cities/us/tx/dallas/groups/

Try to find one that is not a prayer or support group since those wont get your mind away from thinking about your marriage.
Posted By: Dia Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/21/09 06:38 PM
FWIW, you can also find a variety of therapist called a Pastoral Counselor. These are people who did all of their counseling training in a seminary along with courses in theology. Some of them are ordained clergy while others are laymen.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/21/09 06:38 PM
25,

I didn't say that. But I have enough on my plate right now. I'm not quite as depressed as I used to be. Why does it seem like I am? I don't like being alone for long periods of time. That can make anyone depressed. But I am a people person. Actually I am a family person. I have never had a big group of friends. I'm not the life of the party.

Professional Help. I agree there are many resouces posted here. And all have good merit. And none of have been ignored.

I know... you think I am emotionally disturbed and clinically depressed. Oh, and I watched the Cowboys lose last night on TV. Dang it.

Anyways, I'm ok for now. I'm not jumping out any windows. I have some plans for me and my girls this week that should be fun. I am also rearranging the apartment this week to give D11 my room and me and D7 will take the bigger back room with the twin beds so that D11 can have the privacy she has been asking for. That made her happy.

D11 got into a bit of a tizzy last night about D7 and her sharing the same room. Then D11 went on to tell me that we shouldn't have to live in an apartment and she should be able to have her own room and we should be able to be a family and not live like this.

I said have you expressed your feelings to your mom? She said no. I said why not. She said because she doesn't listen and doesn't have the time of day. I said why are you telling me. She said because I listen to her. So I said why doesn't your mom listen. She said because W is either working, or cleaning, or making dinner, or talking on the phone to her friends or playing on the computer. So I said well, what is it that you and D7 are doing. She said just watching TV. She said W does ask them how their day was. But I guess D11 feels like W won't listen to her with regard to her not liking this separation. D11 says that her mom's friends are more important to her. D11 can't stand her mom's best friend. She says her mom talks about her best friend this and her best friend that and it drives D11 nutty.

W's best friend has been a big supporter of whatever makes W happy.

Last week D11 told me I need to get a better paying job so we could do more.

My girls have their appointment again tomorrow night.

Last night when W dropped off my kids, she said that my place looked nice. I had cleaned it up and done a bit of organizing before she brought the kids over. That is the first time she has complimented on anything in forever.

It is another part of changing. Learning to keep things how they should be and making a habit of it. Little things here and there will get noticed with time. I am working on being more attentive on the little things that get noticed.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/21/09 06:48 PM
KerryK,

I have gone to some meetup groups. I have one in particular that I enjoy going to. And it is not a prayer group. Actually it is a divorce support group. Ironic since I am standing for my M and none of them are. But I have managed to make friends within the group so I enjoy hanging out with them. Actually, I take that back, 1 or 2 are standing for their M as they believe like me that it is a covenant M. But the majority aren't.

Dia, I do have a pastor that I still talk to that still lives across the street from W's house. Infact, I had coffee for an hour with him on Saturday.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/21/09 06:51 PM
And I have my good friend I try and talk to on the phone once a week "The Wifey" aka KJ.

I'm looking forward to FaithfulH and Tomato coming down to Dallas soon to hang out. I talked to Tomato last night for a bit as he was hoping for a bad game for my beloved Cowboys. He got his wish as they lost at the end of the game. Tomato is an Eagles fan. UGGGG!!!

But I like Tomato none the less.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/21/09 07:48 PM
Sorry about the Cowboys opening in their new stadium. I feel much more sorrowful for Tomato, but at least he is not a Redskins fan.

It is tough to witness your daughters relationship with their mother deteriorating. But that is between them and her.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/21/09 09:29 PM
Quote:
It is tough to witness your daughters relationship with their mother deteriorating. But that is between them and her.


It is tough to watch. And I want to help that out. But if I say anything to W about it, it will be taken the wrong way. So I just have the girls in counseling. W can't see right now how this is affecting the kids.

Kevin
Posted By: breakaway Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/21/09 09:40 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
It is tough to witness your daughters relationship with their mother deteriorating. But that is between them and her.


It is tough to watch. And I want to help that out. But if I say anything to W about it, it will be taken the wrong way. So I just have the girls in counseling. W can't see right now how this is affecting the kids.

Kevin


Well, I'd say you owe it to your kids though to tell them their mom loves them though, and not look at their feelings as some sort of vindication of yours. I don't think you do your daughters any favors by saying things like she can't see how she's affecting the kids. You don't know what she thinks or how she feels about that. I think it's great that you are a listening ear to D11...but at the same time you have to watch out she isn't manipulating you, as D11's will. My son's counselor has made a very big point about this, which shocked me, really. He called S12 out on it in counseling, about him wanting me to feel sorry for him, and trying to get me to feel sorry for him, and using that as a tool of manipulation that he will LEARN TO USE for the REST OF HIS LIFE if not corrected.

He really gave me son some trouble over the whole self-pity thing. I guess the shocking part is that my son sat there and freaking admitted it. The C told him, well, he had that choice, to live in self-pity, but he didn't see it as a great life plan.

Let me ask you a hard question, Kev. How much of you takes a certain..pleasure, well not really pleasure, but a feeling of satisfaction when you hear D11 make these complaints? Do you feel vindicated...that you're right, and W is wrong. I'd get pretty introspective right now about the best thing for D.

My H does a lot of damage to his R with my S12, and I work daily to repair it, because that's his dad. I do it for S12. it would be sooo easy to turn him completely to my side. I have that power. We could make H the bad guy no problem. But he has to carry that relationship for life and beyond and I want it to be the best it can be.

You're darn right your W wouldnt' listen to you say something about what D11 said. Because it would be seen as self-serving. The best thing you can do for D11 is be a good example and live a good life and not feel sorry for yourself. Don't let her feel sorry for herself either. She can be unhappy about the sitch, but don't encourage self-pity or blame of the other parent. Would you like it if your W talked to your D's and blamed you for everything? Or would you like her to say something about how adults have problems they have to work out, and that both their parents love them?
Posted By: june72 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/21/09 10:32 PM
Kevin,
What I find frustrating is that you can't see what you are doing to the kids. You still care too much about what wife thinks. How wife is so wrong. Etc. You do not move forward.

Kerry- meetup.com was suggested many months ago and Kevin went to a few and seemed to drop it.

Kevin- I must admit I am also baffled when you tell other posters to not give up on their when the WAS is unbelievably bad. Why in the world would Mdoodles stick by her cheating hubby, who steals her jewelry, forecloses the house, barely visits the son and keeps up with an OW that has a restraining order against her for severe harassment of MDoodles.

I don't understand your mind frame. I don't understand your logic. And I am not trying to be mean but as a female- your behavior, your "wheel-spinning", and insistence on your view of religion as being the correct version would drive me far, far away.

KEVIN PLEASE CHANGE AS A PERSON! I KNOW YOU HAVE IT IN YOU. I AM REALLY ROOTING FOR YOU.

I am not rooting for you to get your marriage back but that you change as a person.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 12:46 AM

Vindicated? No. I don't need to see my daughter upset about this to feel vindicated. I already know I am right about this.

It saddens me to see my daughters having to go through this when they shouldn't have to.

But I always tell them that their mom loves them and that they need to love her.

As far as mdoodles goes, I am not saying she should have to put up with what she has been. I'm simply saying she has a covenant M and she should continue to stand for her M and pray for her H to change and come to his senses.

This isn't about male or female. This is about we made a vow for life and we have a covenant with God and our S regardless of how they are acting or sinning.

It is about standing in the gap for your prodigal S and your covenant M and your family.

I realize this isn't popular when you feel wronged and hurt. But it is what it is. We said I Do for life, in sickness and in health, for better or for worse til death do we part. There was nothing in the vows about until I don't like you anymore or someone better comes along.

The way of the world is not the way marriage was set up by God.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 12:55 AM

It is a hard reality to accept that you may have to stand without your covenant S for a period of time. But if you are going to stay in line with your covenant which does not go away, then that is what we are expected to do.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 01:32 AM
Kevin,
I'm not judging you. Your probably one of the people I relate to most on this forum. As scary as that is for me to admit :-)

Not sure anyone is arguing with your intentions. It's the methods you are using that has most of us concerned. You heart is in the right place but it can't be trusted.

The prodigal son is a great story (one of my favorites) but it doesn't apply to your W as you R was not parental. It's convenient to us this story as a reference as it removes us from the equation. It puts us above our S. Again I tell you this because I've been were you are.

Jump over to Dia's thread about page 4 and read the post about the room with the o2 being sucked out of it and you will have some perspective of what you wife has lived with for years. You are associated with that room and until you change your association your wife will try and escape using any means necessary. Telling her to get back in the room will have no effect. Telling her her D wants her back in the room will have no effect.

Your making some steps in the right direction but there are some major hurdles you will not get over without help.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 02:20 AM
Quote:
The prodigal son is a great story (one of my favorites) but it doesn't apply to your W as you R was not parental. It's convenient to us this story as a reference as it removes us from the equation. It puts us above our S. Again I tell you this because I've been were you are.


C-Bart,

I understand what you are saying. That is just the title standers typically give their walk away spouse on the rejoice ministries website.

She is a walk away wife many different reasons. I will check out Dia's thread.

Kevin
Posted By: june72 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 02:29 AM
See Kevin,
Why does your religious belief of marriage trump other people's views? Including your wife's?

Please, please, I am not knocking on your religious beliefs. Good for you. What worries me is that you feel that your religious views are what others should believe. That concerns me.

Unless, I am getting your perspective all wrong here.

Anyhow, I do wish you the best for you and the children and hope that you can move on and get totally detached from the W.
Posted By: breakaway Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 02:33 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D

Vindicated? No. I don't need to see my daughter upset about this to feel vindicated. I already know I am right about this.

Then I guess there's not much left to say, is there?

Quote:

I realize this isn't popular when you feel wronged and hurt. But it is what it is. We said I Do for life, in sickness and in health, for better or for worse til death do we part. There was nothing in the vows about until I don't like you anymore or someone better comes along.


How many of your vows have you broken, Kevin? Did you honor your wife for better or for worse, or didn't you? Did you love her like Christ loves the church? Do you even love her now? Or do you love you? As C-bart said, the prodigal example is RIDICULOUS to use for married people, but even if you wanted to, the father (NOT the husband) let his son GO.

Quote:
The way of the world is not the way marriage was set up by God.


Damn straight. Most marriages have nothing in common with the way it was set up by God. Mine didn't. And if my H hadn't started making changes, I would have left with a clear conscience. You can preach on and on about your covenant, but you clearly didn't honor it when you had the chance.

You're not a stander, you're an extremist who's brainwashed yourself into believing your wife really doesn't have the choice to divorce you. You scare me.

And I see no remorse or repentance from you, just some stubborn preaching that she has no right to leave you. If you were truly repentant for your part in what went wrong you would not take this stance, as if you owned that woman.

Sorry, but I can't take listening to you use God anymore. I really hope something wakes you up soon.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 03:33 AM
Quote:
You're not a stander, you're an extremist who's brainwashed yourself into believing your wife really doesn't have the choice to divorce you. You scare me.

And I see no remorse or repentance from you, just some stubborn preaching that she has no right to leave you. If you were truly repentant for your part in what went wrong you would not take this stance, as if you owned that woman.

Sorry, but I can't take listening to you use God anymore. I really hope something wakes you up soon.


I don't own her. I don't control her. I don't try to do either. You can say all you want that we both may have broken certain vows. What married couple hasn't at some point in their M? But it doesn't change the fact that we still have a covenant M that never goes away. She can live her life how she wants. I don't try and stop her from doing that. She can make her choices all she wants and there is nothing I can do about it and there is nothing I will try and do about it.

I am a stander and not an extremist. My W has every choice to leave or get a legal D or do whatever she chooses to do. I stand by what the bible says about marriage for myself. That doesn't mean I didn't make mistakes. I made a ton of mistakes that I continue to regret each day we are not together. You have no idea how remorseful I am about the mistakes I made. I have apologized to my W time and time again through this for everything I did wrong. I have shed tears to her asking her to please forgive me. She hasn't and that is her choice. I'm living my life as a stander because I will not enter into another cheap imitation of what God created.

If that means that I am alone. So be it. I have one covenant W for life. Thats it. If she doesn't want to be with me. Then she doesn't. How is that me owning her? I fail to see how because I am sticking with what the bible says about marriage being for life that it makes me an extremist. Am I making her come back to me? No. Have I asked her to? Yes I have. But I don't make her do anything. I love her. I love my family. I don't like to see my kids having to grow up like this.

But I don't own or control a thing with regard to my W. And I am not of the belief that I do. She is her own person. When we got married, we became one flesh. But she still makes her own decisions and I have to live with them like it or not just as I made my own decisions that brought a lot of this on. And I don't have to like this situation. But I accept that it is out of my hands.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 03:47 AM
Ok. Got it. You believe in the covenant of M. No need to justify your position.

Only one question left to ask. What would you do to restore your family? Remember the key statement "I don't own or control..." and add "anything except for myself and my actions."
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 01:32 PM
Quote:
Only one question left to ask. What would you do to restore your family? Remember the key statement "I don't own or control..." and add "anything except for myself and my actions."


I pray for restoration. And I am trying to make changes to myself that will make me a better H and father.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 01:50 PM
Is your wife devout?

If she is not, then it is probably best for you to not express openly to her your growing faith. It may feel like the right path for you, but to her, she could pervieve it as you becoming overly rightous.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 01:56 PM
I think this best explains what I have been trying to say. It is a long read and it is from the faithandmarriageministries website. But it is worth the read so I no longer have to answer questions about why I stand the way I do.

When Your Spouse Remarries
One of the most absurd and outrageous false teachings rampant in the Christian church today concerning marriage, divorce and remarriage is that when adulterers get married, they’re no longer committing adultery in the eyes of God! Since that is SO TOTALLY CONTRARY to what Jesus himself taught, there’s NO doubt that’s one of Satan’s MOST destructive and effective weapons against marriage, because Hebrews 13:8 says Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today And forever. And even more importantly, Jesus himself told us in Matthew 24:35, Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. And the importance of His words can’t easily be discounted or dismiss, because the EXACT same verse is also found in Mark 13:31 and Luke 21:33, and it’s rather unusual for three of the four gospels to contain totally identical verses.

Speaking out against such a prevalent and destructive false teaching in the church today is a perfect example of what 2 Corinthians 10:5 means when it says We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. So, even though this may be a very difficult teaching for many of us to understand and apply, we have to trust and rely on God’s word and promise in John 8:31-32, which says To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” So let’s take a look at what Jesus taught about marriage, divorce and remarriage that totally refutes and destroys the validity of such dangerous and antichrist teaching, meaning it opposes Christ, as this obviously does. The following verses are what Jesus himself taught us about marriage, divorce and what HE proclaimed adulterous remarriage.

Matthew 19:3-9 says:
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?
6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
So, according to Jesus, who is the same yesterday, today and forever, and whose words will never pass away, if a man or woman divorces their wife or husband for ANY reason other than marital unfaithfulness and marries someone else, they are committing adultery and they are an adulterer EVEN THOUGH MARRIED BY LAW! That’s VERY clear and unambiguous, and ANY teaching OTHER than that is CONTRARY to the word of God, even the words spoken and taught by Jesus himself. And God very clearly and unmistakably warned us about the dangers of such false teachings in 2 Peter 2:1-2, which says But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.

In Matthew 5:31-32, Jesus even went so far as to say “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. So Jesus CLEARLY and very unambiguously commands us NOT to live in accordance with today’s “no fault” divorce laws, which is totally destroying the fabric of society as God created it. How heart breaking it must be for the Lord that even the church, the body of His Son the living Christ, not only fails to condemn and reject practices so contrary to the teachings of Jesus himself, but they endorse, promote and participate in them by performing sacrilegious wedding ceremonies that Jesus spoke and taught against as adultery!

Then in Mark 10, what Jesus taught about marriage, divorce and remarriage is recounted WITHOUT the exception for marital unfaithfulness found in other passages and verses, as we see in the following verses:
2 Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?”
3 “What did Moses command you?” he replied.
4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.”
5 “It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied.
6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’
7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
8 and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one.
9 Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
10 When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this.
11 He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.
12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”
Even though this particular passage makes the circumstances for any of us dealing with a second or subsequent marriage more complicated, even when marital unfaithfulness is the cause for divorce, it still makes it very clear that Christian leaders are wrong to encourage, accept and condone adulterous remarriage.

It’s so ironic that the one chapter, 1 Corinthians 7, most often used by Christians to come up with all sorts of “loopholes” for divorce and remarriage is actually the one that MOST strongly supports Mark’s account of what Jesus taught about marriage, divorce and remarriage. Because in verses 10-11, Paul said To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife. Clearly there’s NO marital unfaithfulness exception mentioned there, or anywhere else in the chapter, and the ONLY possible “presumption” of allowance for divorce and remarriage for marital unfaithfulness, or adultery, is found at the end of the chapter in verse 39, where Paul concluded by saying A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord. And at that time, as when Jesus taught about divorce and remarriage, anyone caught in adultery was stoned to death, which meant the other spouse was free to remarry. Paul obviously felt very strongly about that, because he also used it as an example in Romans 7:2-3, which says For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. So, once again, the practice of stoning an adulterous spouse at that time is the only possible presumed exception for remarriage found in these verses, which WOULD be a lot more in keeping with what the Bible teaches about God’s grace and mercy, and His strong sense of justice, as well as His promise to defend and vindicate us when we’re wronged by others, especially considering the exception Jesus made for marital unfaithfulness in other passages.

Then, as further evidence and confirmation that God does not recognize or bless ALL marriages, Mark 6:17 says For Herod himself had given orders to have John arrested, and he had him bound and put in prison. He did this because of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife, whom he had married. And Matthew 14:3-4 says Now Herod had arrested John and bound him and put him in prison because of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife, for John had been saying to him: “It is not lawful for you to have her.” And then, finally, Luke 3:18-20 says And with many other words John exhorted the people and preached the good news to them. But when John rebuked Herod the tetrarch because of Herodias, his brother’s wife, and all the other evil things he had done, Herod added this to them all: He locked John up in prison. In all three gospel accounts, Herodias was always referred to as Philip’s wife, even though Herod had married her, so the Bible makes it very clear that God does not recognize or acknowledge adulterous marriages, much less approve, condone or bless them! And let us not forget that John the Baptist lost his head for preaching AGAINST that particular adulterous marriage, because he refused to accept and acknowledge it as lawful!

Another very important point to make here, without going into great detail, is that even though many people believe and teach that God’s grace and forgiveness means that getting married makes it okay to continue living in adulterous relationships, or to remain in adulterous marriages, Jude 1:4 clearly warns against such teaching, because it says For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Not only that, but the same grace Christian leaders now presumed to cover and allow the continuation of adulterous relationships was already in effect at the time Paul wrote what he did about marriage, divorce and remarriage, in which he NEVER eluded to the “grace” exceptions, even though it was well after the death and resurrection of Jesus. In fact, quite to the contrary, Paul makes it VERY clear that the grace of our Lord and Savior is NOT a license to sin, as he wrote in Romans 6:15, which says, What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! And One REALLY BIG problem with this perverted concept of God’s grace and forgiveness is that it forgets and ignores the fact that without confession and repentance, there is no grace or forgiveness for our sins. And I know of no other sin Christians believe God’s grace allows us to continue in, while expecting and claiming God’s forgiveness and redemption. Proverbs 28:13 makes that point very well, because it says He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy.. And 1 John 1:9 says If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. Obviously, we can’t confess something as sin and expect to receive God’s mercy, and the grace of His forgiveness and the purification of His righteousness if we have no intention of renouncing and discontinuing the sin! That’s what makes the false teaching that marriage causes God to accept or forgive the sin of adultery so absurd and outrageous!

Kevin
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 02:29 PM
Yo Kevin

Go Eagles!

My Lord, I just noticed that you are on page 92 on hear. Are you the record holder or what.

I hope all is well with you.

Not sure why you continually feel the need to support/defend your position and stand for your M to anyone else. ?? Seems almost like a waste of time and energy to me. If what you are doing in your life is good enough for you and good enough for our God then it is. That is what matters.

You have my prayers. Just keep growing in the Lord. All the strength you need is found in Him.

Go Eagles.

Ted
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 02:41 PM
Hi Tomato,

I agree. This is the last time I will explain it. If anyone questions me in the future, I will refer them to page 92 of this thread.

There is no point in continuing to explain the same thing over and over again.

I'm doing ok. I miss the W some this morning. But that is natural at times.

Thanks for the prayers and you have mine as well. And you are right... all the strength I need is found in Him.

Kevin
Posted By: sandycay Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 02:44 PM
I've never posted to you and have read parts of your story here and there. That said, in the previous post you said or the bible says "9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”


Martil unfaithfulness isnt' just "cheating"....a person can be unfaithful to their marriage in many ways... below is a definition for unfaithful... note that it's just not about being sexually faithful.



1. not faithful; false to duty, obligation, or promises; faithless; disloyal.
2. not sexually faithful to a spouse or lover.
3. not accurate or complete; inexact: an unfaithful translation.
4. Obsolete. unbelieving; infidel.



So, with that being said what I am trying to say ... and yes I stood and am still standing......is that the way you are coming across is not helfpful.... it feels and sounds like pressure from you and has ring of zeal to it that is not attractive.

I am a believer BTW....

So if the above is true of you and your W and she or you has been unfaithful then she or you is free to leave the marraige. I don't think God wants our marraiges to fail but that's where the free will part comes in and you have no control over that.

Just food for thought for you.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 02:53 PM
sandycay,

It was well known in the jewish law at that time that unfaithful meant the act of committing adultery.

I appreciate the food for thought.

I am not trying to put pressure on my W or anyone else. I am simply standing for the reasons above and explaining why I am standing. If someone feels like that is pressure being put on them, I can't help that. I'm not going to change my beliefs or what the bible says or what the catholic church says to make someone else feel less pressure.

Everyone makes their own choices for themselves. So do I. It may not be attractive to stand for the reasons above. But I stand for them none the less because it is what is right. Jesus and the apostles were not looked at as attractive either or else they would not have been crucified, etc. This isn't a popularity contest. It is a morality issue. It is a covenant issue.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 02:59 PM
Jesus loved the world enough to die for our sins. But Jesus also had laws that he did not waiver on. He left it up to every person to choose what they were going to follow. But he hasn't changed. Some people try and change things around to make it convenient for them. They distort what the bible really says so that they don't have to endure hardships and tough times. They don't want to turn to Jesus's laws. They want to have Jesus grant them whatever makes them feel better be it right or wrong.

All of us know how difficult it is to stand and have faith and trust in God that he can and will repair our covenant marriages. But it is in His timing and not ours. The world is so used to instant gratification that they don't want to wait on His timing. They want it now or something else if they can't have it now.

It is tough to stand and wait and examine your own self for the changes that you need to make. But the reward at the end of it will be well worth it if you can do it.

Kevin
Posted By: JayMan Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 03:00 PM
Kevin,
There is a lot of truth to this. My W used to have a deep faith - she literally set aside her beliefs so that she could file divorce because she believed it was wrong Biblically. Her solution was to then say, "I just don't believe in the Bible anymore."

I have never pushed her in that regard - but let her see the changes God made in me. It's funny too - she has started changing in many ways. She used to say that she didn't believe in the Bible and not "God", just a higher power. A couple of months later, she told the kids she didn't believe in evolution, but that God created us. Then, a couple of months later, she randomly texted me about something she was watching on TV about God. She started talking about how she wasn't sure about the Bible, and how do we know it's true?

Then, one day, we're at Taco Bell, and she was telling me about a mutual friend that was parachuting in the Army, and he fell and broke his hip, and S7 pipes up, "We should pray for him!" W just sort of looked at him.

The kids and I do pray every single day for her soul, but the best thing I can do for her is to allow God to live in me, and be an example. Realize that I can't do anything about it except perhaps let her see God in me. Actions speak louder than words.

As for you: I think you would get a better reception here on the boards if you would post what is changing in YOU! Let God deal with your W!

How are you improving your quality of life? How is God changing you? What has He revealed in you where you can be better?
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 03:01 PM
Kev and T,

I don't think anyone begrudges Kevin standing for his M, I say good for you and I pray it works out. It's the seemingly unhealthy attachment to his W. His(your) emotions seem to wrapped up in her even if they were living as a married couple right now it would be unhealthy and as you've said Kev you were this way before...That's why everyone that posts here wants him to get help NOT for standing for his M.

just my $0.02
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 03:15 PM
Ditto what V-Dog said. No one is arguing the stand but standing in the road won't make the train stop.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 03:18 PM
Quote:
How are you improving your quality of life? How is God changing you? What has He revealed in you where you can be better?


JonF,

Right now I am trying to save money again, so I am not doing a whole lot out there. I am making friends which is good.

God is changing me in that I realize that it is my job to pray for my W's soul and allow God to change me and make me a better H and father to my kids. I have come to realize that it is not my job to change my W, but His job. Like you, the best thing I can do is let her see the changes in me. It is my job to love her unconditionally which means if she doesn't want to be with me, then she doesn't have to. But the door is and always will be opened for her to return. I will be ok with or without her. I prefer it to be with her. But I am not in control of that situation.

I can be non judgemental but hold true to what I know to be right. I don't need to put it in her face. My job is to step aside and work on me and let God work on her. It has been revealed to me just how much I made a mess of things and will continue to if I don't step aside and focus on how I can be better.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 03:21 PM
Quote:
but standing in the road won't make the train stop


I like that C-Bart. It is God's job to make the train stop, not mine. I am out of the way of the train.

But standing in the gap will make a difference because it will be God making the difference.

Kevin
Posted By: JayMan Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 03:27 PM
Don't forget that it is not God's job to "stop the train". In this case, God gives the train a free will choice.

He will be faithful to talk to your W, witness to her heart, even make her miserable in it, but she gets to make her own choice. Otherwise, we aren't human beings, but religious robots.

I know an amazing, beautiful woman with four children who dearly loved her husband - he left her twice for another woman, and became an alcoholic, rarely came to see the kids. She stood by her marriage vows, raised all four kids, went to school full-time and worked full-time, provided a loving home, and I think a couple of the kids are going into full-time ministry. She accomplished this because she focused on herself and her kids - not her H.

I think you have improved immensely from your earlier days, as many do on here, but just got to get over that hump. Trust me, I know how hard it is!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 03:39 PM
JonF,

Did she ever stop praying for her M to be restored?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 03:48 PM
Dr. Phil was on the tv last night and D11 told me that Dr. Phil is where me and W need to go. I could only dream of getting my W to go anywhere that could help us.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 03:51 PM
I don't know where people come up with "faith alone" from.

James 2:24 says
Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Just food for thought.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 03:54 PM
My kids have their C appointment again tonight. I am very excited about it. They will have notebooks to start writing and drawing in and be given homework. I think I am going to talk to the C about C for my own self as well.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 04:01 PM
It was the drawing in the notebooks that sold you wasn't it :-)
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 04:03 PM
Quote:
It was the drawing in the notebooks that sold you wasn't it :-)


LOL, If I can draw also, it makes it all worth it.

Kevin
Posted By: breakaway Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 04:56 PM
Kevin, first of all ditto to what volleydog said, stand away, just get emotionally healthy while you do it.

Anyway, I just came back from an Al Anon meeting, I haven't been able to go for about six weeks. Someone brought up boundaries in conversations and I just want to apologize for being so harsh earlier.

To explain where so much frustration is coming from, I know more than one person, and one good friend in particular who is in a very damaging marriage to an unstable person who refuses to change and keeps blaming her for their problems (HIS emotional abuse). And he keeps telling her divorce is a sin. That God doesn't allow it. He seems to think he can do whatever he wants however. And so MANY women are told this and made to feel guilty about trying to get out of a dangerous ungodly marriage.

I find it an extremely emotional issue. Anyway, you're free to do whatever you please, as you see fit. I think most of us are just trying to help you get unstuck on your fixation on W.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 05:07 PM
breakaway,

I don't think that I have a right to treat my W as I please. I realize how wrong that was of me. I am not doing that anymore. She doesn't deserve that. I am not pinning the blame on her for our marital problems. I was 80% of it. I accept that. I'm just trying to say that this is not the answer to fixing it. But I realize that I have no control over her choosing to respond or not. I wish she would work with me on it. But I can't make her or force her to and I know that. And I don't try to.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 05:30 PM
It looks like my kids won't be having C tonight after all. D11 has a 101 fever and they think she has the flu. Her grandma is taking her to the doctor. So I rescheduled for next week.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 05:41 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
breakaway,

I wish she would work with me on it.



You must travel this path on your own but not alone. He knows what He is doing. You and I both know you would have never started this journey if your W was still with you.
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 05:44 PM
Kevin,

Do you think that your wife has to forgive you for your past teatment of her?

Do you have any idea how damaging it is to a family that has to live with an alcoholic?

Some hurts cannot be healed. Sometimes the only option is to separate.

I won't argue with you about your religious belief, but frankly, there are some, oh how to say it, strange things in the Bible . . . Ever read Leviticus?
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 05:56 PM
Sorry to hear about D11.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 05:58 PM
Quote:
Do you think that your wife has to forgive you for your past teatment of her?


Esox, my W doesn't have to do anything she doesn't want to do. I wish she would forgive me. But that is her choice.

Quote:
Some hurts cannot be healed. Sometimes the only option is to separate.


This is a worldy cop out. All marriages can be fixed and healed with time. By the way, I don't have an issue with temporary separation. The bible doesn't even have an issue with that. Its the permanent separation/legal divorce I have an issue with. But I also know once again that it is not in my control. I have no say in the matter and I don't pretend to have a say in the matter.

Quote:
I won't argue with you about your religious belief, but frankly, there are some, oh how to say it, strange things in the Bible . . . Ever read Leviticus?


I am actually listening to Leviticus on my bible CD. That is a painful chapter to listen to. The rules on how to live by and the dimensions in Exodus are just painful to listen to. They are so long and drawn out.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 06:00 PM
Quote:
Do you have any idea how damaging it is to a family that has to live with an alcoholic?


Yes. As I personally witnessed it in my own behavior. It doesn't mean that things can't be fixed and healed with time.

Kevin
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 06:05 PM
Well,

I'll give you something to think about when it comes to literal translations of biblical quotes. This is an open letter given to Dr. Laura once when she was using quotes from Leviticus to denounce homosexuality. The point being it is sometimes dangerous to take biblical quotes out of context:

J. Kent Ashcraft
May 2000
Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are the Biblical verses refered to above, in two different translations: the King James Version [KJV], and New International Version [NIV]

Lev 18:22 [KJV] Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. [NIV] Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Lev 1:9 [KJV] But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD. [NIV] He is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD.

Exodus 21:7 [KJV] And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. [NIV] If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.

Lev 15:19-24 [KJV] And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. 20 And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. 21 And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. 22 And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. 23 And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even. 24 And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean.
[NIV] When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. 20 Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. 21 Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 22 Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 23 Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening. 24 If a man lies with her and her monthly flow touches him, he will be unclean for seven days; any bed he lies on will be unclean.

Lev 25:44 [KJV] Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. [NIV] Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.

Exodus 35:2 [KJV] Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. [NIV] For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

Lev 11:10 [KJV] And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you [NIV] But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales --- whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water --- you are to detest.

Lev 21:20 [KJV] Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken [NIV] or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.

Lev 19:27 [KJV] Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard. [NIV] Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

Lev 11:6-8 [KJV] And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. 7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. 8 Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.
[NIV] The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you. 7 And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divied, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcases; they are unclean for you.

Lev 19:19 [KJV] Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee. [NIV] Keep my decrees. Do not mate different kinds of animals. Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

Lev 24:10-16 [KJV] And the son of an Israelitish woman, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the children of Israel: and this son of the Israelitish woman and a man of Israel strove together in the camp; 11 And the Israelitish woman's son blasphemed the name of the Lord, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan:) 12 And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be shewed them. 13 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him. 15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin. 16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.
[NIV] Now the son of an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father went out among the Israelites, and a fight broke out in the camp between him and an Israelite. 11 The son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the name of the LORD with a curse; so they brough him to Moses. (His mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri the Danite.) 12 They put him in custody until the will of the LORD should be made clear to them. 13 Then the LORD said to Moses: 14 Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. 15 Say to the Israelites: If anyone curses his God, he will be held responsible; 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

Lev 20:14 [KJV] And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you. [NIV] If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.


Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 06:18 PM
When Jesus died, the old testament was abolished and the new testament was put in place of it. The new testament is the fullfilment of the old testament. The new laws could not be put into place until after Jesus died and rose again. In the old testament, Jesus's blood was not there to forgive man for his sins. The new testament changed all of that.

The old testament does not contradict the new testament and neither does the new contradict the old. The difference is Jesus came down and died for us so that our sins could be forgiven at that time through him. It was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins that was made in the new testament that had not been done previously.

The new testament still speaks against homosexuality, adultery, etc etc etc. And it also states what the fate of those will be if they do not repent and stop living in those sins.

The old testament is more about reference and tradition than anything once the new testament came along.

I may not be doing a very good job of explaining it, but to use scripture from the old testament that was replaced with the new testament is absurd.

Kevin
Posted By: june72 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 06:28 PM


Quote:
Some hurts cannot be healed. Sometimes the only option is to separate.


This is a worldy cop out. All marriages can be fixed and healed with time. By the way, I don't have an issue with temporary separation. The bible doesn't even have an issue with that. Its the permanent separation/legal divorce I have an issue with. But I also know once again that it is not in my control. I have no say in the matter and I don't pretend to have a say in the matter.


Kevin,

Got to admit this is perplexing. True story. I was an ICU nurse and had a woman admitted who was beaten with a baseball bat an inch of her life. Permanent brain damage, kids witnessed it, very bad. Are you saying that this woman should forgive and go back to the husband?

It takes 2 to make a marriage work and 1 to break it. You can work all you want on a marriage but if the other is unwilling you are stuck.

Curious on your thoughts. Also, I get the impression that you feel your belief system trumps other's religious views. Not sure if I am reading you right.

What I do believe to be correct though is - while you hide behind your religious views it's almost a cop out to do the "real" work on you. People have stated time and time again- you have to take action to change but you still go on and on about little minor incidents with your wife. Again, maybe I am seeing this all incorrectly.

I wonder if this "stander's" viewpoint also has the doctrine of changing yourself to a better person but you've minimized that part.

Kevin, what is wrong with a little bit of counseling-is it going to harm you in any way? No time, no money, another reason?

I think if you polled people on here they would state that your still in "stuck-mode" in regard to wife and have to move forward. Perhaps I am 100% wrong. It's just the impression I am getting.

Kevin- even "standing for your marriage" should be you actively pursuing changes in you. Just my thoughts...
Posted By: june72 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 06:28 PM

OK, I've got to admit Kevin, I find it frustrating when someone finally decides they are done fighting for their marraige on this website- you feel justified and telling them to continue to stand for their marriage. I get a little annoyed. There I said it....
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 06:36 PM
Kevin,

I guess we can both agree that indeed a lot of what is in the Bible is absurd. Perhaps your wife feels the same way you do about the absurdity of Leviticus about your views of covenant marriage. . .

The only way marriage will work is if both parties what it to. And I don't think that any amout of magical thinking will change that.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 06:37 PM
june72,

Obviously the woman that was beaten should not go back to her H anytime in the near future. And if she is brain damaged, he pretty well did her in.

I do encourage people to keep standing for their M's. That doesn't mean stay in the same house if things are bad. But don't run off and hook up with someone else. You still have a covenant M regardless of how bad it may be at the time. We are still expected to pray for our S who is sinning against us and God right now. They are still our covenant S. We aren't released from that because things got bad.

Oddly enough, I talked to my kids C who also does adult C a bit ago and asked her about C for myself. She said that she can and does do it. So I am going to try and work something out with her.

I think everyone on here can atest to the fact that I don't deny that I have things I need to work on and I am trying to work on those things.

I didn't say anything about my religion trumping other religions. The one thing we all have in common is the bible. Now if you want to take the bible out of the equation, what is the point of standing?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 06:40 PM
Esox,

I don't find the bible absurd. What I find absurd is referring to scriptures from the old testament to still have the same meaning in todays world when there was a new covenant put into place.

We are expected to live by the law that Jesus set up to this day. A lot of people don't want to. That is their choice. Nobody is perfect and I am so far from perfect it is not even funny.

But the bible is certainly not absurd.

Kevin
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 06:42 PM
Kevin,

We all don't have the Bible in common. You see, not everyone is a Christian. You do know that right? And not all Christians belive the same thing. You know that too right?
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 06:42 PM
A lot of what is in the bible is indeed absurd. The old testament is part of the bible.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 06:43 PM
june72,

I will even add the brain damaged woman doesn't have to go back to her H. Paul wrote that God said a woman should not divorce her H. But if she does, she is to remain single or be reconciled to her H.

So no, I wouldn't think that she should go back to her H after doing that. But she still isn't given the permission to remarry someone else.

If she chooses to do so, that is between her and God.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 06:45 PM
Esox,

To each their own.

This is just my stance on it.

It is amazing the darts that get thrown at you for stating your stance on something.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 06:47 PM
My W is not happy that I rescheduled my daughters C appointment for next Tuesday on her week.

Life is fun.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 06:52 PM
If you S is injured or deathly sick, do you not call a doctor?

If your S is spiritually sick, do you not call on God to heal that S?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 06:58 PM
By the way, so nobody thinks I am self-righteous, I ask God to heal and fix me as well since I know I have things that need to be fixed.

Kevin
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 07:27 PM
KD,

I won’t speculate on your wife’s spirituality, but one thing seems certain, your wife is sick of YOU.




You can believe anything that you want, you can believe that some magic sky-fairy is responsible for making sure that your life runs just fine and you get everything that you want, your way and in your time. The rub comes when what you want for yourself differs from what your spouse wants for herself.

You continue to apply a literal translation from the part of the bible you believe in (new testament) to your marriage. Your wife obviously doesn't believe the same translation that you do. And that doesn't make her wrong. It makes her understanding different from yours. And you can continue to shout that she has it wrong and you are right, but I don't think that that is going to help you on bit.

Believe what you want. Give your wife the same consideration.

Everything changes KD. Life isn't static. Stop trying to grab and hold things that are impermanent.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 07:39 PM
Esox,

I am not shouting anything at her. I don't discuss it with her. She knows where I stand and I know where she stands. I have no earthly idea what her beliefs are. But I know they don't include me in the picture at the moment.

A covenant marriage is a permanent bond until one of us passes away. I stand by it. I stand alone at the moment for it. But I stand for it none the less.

That is my choice. And she makes her choices.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 07:50 PM
Quote:
I won’t speculate on your wife’s spirituality, but one thing seems certain, your wife is sick of YOU.


Can't argue with that which is why I don't bother her.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 07:56 PM
Now don't everyone freak out. I am still thinking of a way to ask my beloved darling to go to Retrouvaille with me next month.

Any suggestions on how to put it to her so she might consider it?

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 07:59 PM
Quote:
Any suggestions on how to put it to her so she might consider it?


There is no way...There MIGHT be in the future but not now. If your going to do it anyway, which I think you well...I would say just ask her outright and tell her you'll email her the info so she can look at it...It won't turn out well.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 07:59 PM
I'm looking for honest genuine help here on trying to see if she will go to Retrouvaille.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 08:01 PM
VD,

Would you ask your W or did you ask her to go to Retrouvaille? If so, what was the outcome?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 08:02 PM
Explain to me this. What point do me and my W have to be at in our relationship to qualify me to ask her if she will go to Retrouvaille?

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 08:14 PM
Honestly, she's going to have to show that she is interested in you. Which I really don't see any time soon. I mean, let's face it, she can't seem to stomach sitting in the same room with you.

Harsh but true. Stop looking at the goal of getting her to R and maybe start thinking about how you can even start talking to her in a civil manner and she likewise.
Posted By: june72 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 08:16 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Now don't everyone freak out. I am still thinking of a way to ask my beloved darling to go to Retrouvaille with me next month.

Any suggestions on how to put it to her so she might consider it?

Kevin

Dear, sweet Kevin,

And I am saying this with the kindest voice possible. THIS is exactly why you need counseling. I admit, I have gone to counseling myself nothing wrong with it.
It's almost as if you are a person who is only their hands over their ears , yelling lalalala- I can't hear it so it must not be true. She does not want to be with you at this time. Maybe in the future but not know.

But, we all know her answer will be no. And that this behavior, in my mind, is pursuing.

And to call her "sweet darling"? Just, I don't know how to word it, just not right in some way.... (considering the situation)
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 08:16 PM
Would you still stand for your marriage if your wife changed religion or became an atheist or agnostic?

Why are you so fast to try to get your wife to go to Retrouvaille with you when you wont go see a counselor like so many have recommended? I see that even back in May that you were agreeing that you needed a C and meds.

Kevin, words are not actions.

You are being very stubborn and defensive to those who give you excellent advice. Do you think this same trait might be one reason your wife has left you?

I think Retrouvaille would be a disaster for your marriage at this present time. It would give your wife the green light to say "see, I told you so. Our marriage cannot be reconciled". She would file for divorce again fairly quickly after wasting her time with it.

You need to be thinking Retrouvaille somewhere way down the road when your wife indicates of her own free will that she is thinking about wanting back into the marriage.

Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 08:24 PM
Quote:
Would you still stand for your marriage if your wife changed religion or became and atheist or agnostic?


Yes.

Quote:
Why are you so fast to try to get your wife to go to Retrouvaille with you when you wont go see a counselor like so many have recommended? I see that even back in May that you were agreeing that you needed a C and meds.


I just spoke to my kids C this morning and we are going to try and set it up for me. She does adult and marriage C as well as kids C.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 08:25 PM
Quote:
And to call her "sweet darling"? Just, I don't know how to word it, just not right in some way.... (considering the situation)


I'm not sure I follow here...

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 08:28 PM
Nope never did. By the time I knew what it was she would have said no...Someone did btw write her an email suggesting it, the email said a friend of a friend...She thought it was me pretending to be someone else and was pretty upset.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 08:37 PM
VD,

Sorry to hear that.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 08:42 PM
I guess I don't know what to do then. There just doesn't seem to be any options for me to try and fix this other than to just leave her alone which I am doing and work on me.

Meanwhile, she appears to be having a blast. I looked at the schedule for the kids and saw that she has them for halloween, thanksgiving and Christmas. I'm not sure how I missed that originally. Something in the back of my mind tells me that it was planned out that way. But who knows for sure.

<sigh>

Kevin
Posted By: june72 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 08:44 PM
Kevin,
Maybe she will be reasonable. maybe she will be willing for you to have split days on some of the Holidays. I would send a short email asking and stating if would be nice but your not going to push it.
Just my thoughts.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 08:45 PM
So it was the holiday issue that triggered you.

For those you should tell W you want joint time with the girls. Like maybe for Thanksgiving, you have them during lunch and she has them during dinner.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 08:54 PM
Ya, the holiday issue has been bothering me since I looked at the schedule. I haven't said anything to W about it. She may be planning on traveling for Christmas with them. I'm not sure. I think she mentioned something about it.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 08:57 PM
I hope you noticed then that the question about Retrouvaille was to satisfy your own needs to see the kids. And not really about you reconciling with your W. Come up with an arrangement for the holidays and give it to her.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 08:58 PM
That's why you should have a co-parenting/custody order in place. You need to stop wasting your energy thinking about ways to get her to be your W again and start thinking about being civil co-parents. I have a rotating Holiday schedule w my X. I have her for Thanksgiving this year and she has her for Xmas. If were in town then we try to share the Holiday. But, you are better off getting this written up by an attorney or she will just continue to manipulate you.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 09:03 PM
Quote:
I hope you noticed then that the question about Retrouvaille was to satisfy your own needs to see the kids. And not really about you reconciling with your W.


It was a combination of both.

Kevin
Posted By: breakaway Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 09:05 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Ya, the holiday issue has been bothering me since I looked at the schedule. I haven't said anything to W about it. She may be planning on traveling for Christmas with them. I'm not sure. I think she mentioned something about it.

Kevin


okay...you obsess about all the things she says and does...but you can't remember what she said about CHRISTMAS and traveling with the kids? Isn't that kind of...important?

what is going on with you that you don't know what your holiday schedule is? You said you somehow know it was planned, but you're not sure? Do you listen to her?

This really confuses me. And no, I don't think you draw up a schedule and give it to her, just like she shouldn't do that to you. You suggest and you talk about it, and come to an agreement. You've made it sound like this might have been discussed with her...but you can't remember. Is that what you're saying? Because if you suddenly act like you have a different plan than one you might have ACTUALLY agreed to...well that's going to seem weird. Did you agree to this at some point?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 09:09 PM
breakaway,

Yes, I agreed to it when she wanted the papers notorized one afternoon. It was rather quickly. I don't remember how much discussion there was about the schedule as she was going through multiple papers. I know I looked at it briefly and there was something said about it, but I don't remember much beyond that.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 09:13 PM
Get your schedule in writing.

Be assertive, otherwise she will just think you are a pushover and take advantage of you.
Posted By: breakaway Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 09:17 PM
ummm...then clearly, as has been mentioned a million times, your focus is on the wrong things. You're asking about Retro and you can't remember what you AGREED to about your children's holiday schedule. Your first post about it said "who knows for sure?" Well YOU are supposed to know.

Now you have to approach it with W that now that you've had more time to think about it you'd like to change the agreement. That requires a little more diplomacy. Perhaps you should think about what plans you'd actually like to make for the holidays, PLANS, Kevin, for you.

I think it's a bit telling that your major concern is that "it seems like she's having a blast." Not really about how much time you get with the kids. Who knows if she's having a blast. Maybe YOU should seem like YOU are having a blast. Maybe you should approach her with some wonderful things you wanted to experience with the children for the holidays, so you would like to arrange that.

Get off the pity pot, FORGET about Retro! and start making holiday plans. Get online and find something to do. Talk to your family about what they'd like to do for the holidays. You know what Moms do? They start planning this stuff NOW. Get involved in your own life!
Posted By: breakaway Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 09:19 PM
Originally Posted By: KerryK
Get your schedule in writing.

Be assertive, otherwise she will just think you are a pushover and take advantage of you.


IT IS in writing. He signed it and then acted like it was a mystery.
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/22/09 09:32 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Originally Posted By: KerryK
Get your schedule in writing.

Be assertive, otherwise she will just think you are a pushover and take advantage of you.


IT IS in writing. He signed it and then acted like it was a mystery.

Ugggh! Asking nicely for some changes is about the only thing you can do other than sucking it up and not enjoying all the holidays this year.
Posted By: breakaway Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/23/09 02:25 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I looked at the schedule for the kids and saw that she has them for halloween, thanksgiving and Christmas. I'm not sure how I missed that originally. Something in the back of my mind tells me that it was planned out that way. But who knows for sure.


Kevin, after thinking about it...I can only assume you were drinking for you to give this answer. I can't think of any othe reason for this behavior.

I really hope and pray you actually address this issue with AA and the 12 Steps.

Best of luck...
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/23/09 02:47 AM
breakaway,

I was not drinking when this occured. My memory is not very good probably due to the drinking over the years. But I was not drinking for this. Thanks for assuming though.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/23/09 02:49 AM
Actually, I probably shouldn't even say that. It probably was a natural assumption based on my past. But I really was not drinking for that.

Kevin
Posted By: breakaway Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/23/09 02:50 AM
I assume that because I live with an alcoholic who can't remember anything. Sorry if I offended you.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/23/09 03:19 AM
You didn't offend me. I just didn't think it through before I responded.

It was a natural assumption especially from someone with your situation.

Tonight I got an email from a friend trying to plan a birthday party for me Friday night. I called my W and asked if she could watch the kids Friday night. She seemed annoyed. She said either she would watch them or hire a baby sitter since she already had plans.

Defend her all yall want. But as far as being a mother goes, she has gone down hill to suck mode. Almost anytime she has asked me to watch the kids, I haven't hesitated. But if I ask her which is rare, she always has plans and seems annoyed. How can you as a mother be annoyed at the opportunity to spend an additional evening with your own kids when you only get them every other week?

She is not the mother she used to be. She thinks she is all that and then some for guys to chase after and only has her required times available for her own kids.

Total BS. I will no longer defend her as a loving mother. I'm just irritated at her.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/23/09 03:29 AM
Don't ask her next time. Take care of it on your own. Get a sitter or family member. Don't go down that rabbit hole making everything about her. She's got that covered.
Posted By: june72 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/23/09 03:31 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D


Tonight I got an email from a friend trying to plan a birthday party for me Friday night. I called my W and asked if she could watch the kids Friday night. She seemed annoyed. She said either she would watch them or hire a baby sitter since she already had plans.

Defend her all yall want. But as far as being a mother goes, she has gone down hill to suck mode. Almost anytime she has asked me to watch the kids, I haven't hesitated. But if I ask her which is rare, she always has plans and seems annoyed. How can you as a mother be annoyed at the opportunity to spend an additional evening with your own kids when you only get them every other week?

She is not the mother she used to be. She thinks she is all that and then some for guys to chase after and only has her required times available for her own kids.

Total BS. I will no longer defend her as a loving mother. I'm just irritated at her.

Kevin


Kevin,
I agree with you here. After reading all of your posts for many months. Her actions have been selfish at times and not in the best regard for the kids at times. I think that is a common theme for many here on the board.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/23/09 11:57 AM
Its called DIVORCE, Kevin.
Wait it gets better .....
has she asked you to take them so she could go to a wedding or on vacation with another man yet? your youngest is 7 right? 11 more years of this.

Quote:
She thinks she is all that and then some for guys to chase after
and thats called being single.

realize, she is having a blast and then some.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/23/09 01:52 PM
Steve McQueen,

No offense and I appreciate what you are saying. But this isn't even worth responding to. I'm sorry if I sound cynical this morning.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/23/09 01:58 PM
one day you will look back on this and laugh. you will!
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/23/09 02:00 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Steve McQueen,

No offense and I appreciate what you are saying. But this isn't even worth responding to. I'm sorry if I sound cynical this morning.

Kevin


then why did you?

must be a texan thing.


it get's done a whole lot on your thread it seems and surely not just by you bro'

stuff like .."I am so fed up with you Kev and your not following all the helpful advice we are giving you that I just can not post to you anymore cuz I am getting sick by this"

roll the calendar fwd ..same assortment of individuals "oh and another thing when are you gonna do what we tell ya ..blah blah blah .."

It can be amusing to a certain extent. So much passion seems to show up on here. You are the lightening rod for intensely passionate people.

T
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/23/09 02:13 PM
Not sure Tomato,

I'm not trying to be amusing to anyone. I don't know how I became the lightning rod for passionate people. I guess because I to am passionate.

Kevin
Posted By: june72 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/23/09 02:16 PM
Aww, come on, every one is rooting for Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/23/09 02:31 PM
yeah, and im not being passionate for kevin, but rather want to see him get back to some DIVORCE BUSTING!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/23/09 04:50 PM
I'm approaching the big 35 this weekend and not in the fashion I would prefer to. But it is what it is. At least I will have a birthday party with friends and then I will spend Sunday with my girls.

But hey, I have been granted another year of life and my family split as it may be have also been granted another year of life.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/23/09 04:59 PM
From Rejoice Ministries, I found this to be very good.

* Your Prodigal Could Use Your Prayers -

The prayers of a faithful, standing spouse are the best gifts that you can give to a wayward spouse. Don’t be like the standers who write us, telling how they pray "all day, every day" for their mate. Charlyne could not have done that, for she had to work and care for a home and three children by herself. But I was confident that after the day had ended and my wife was alone, that her promises to pray for me were being fulfilled, regardless of how exhausted she might be. Jesus taught us to pray, so may you make time to pray for your spouse.

* Your Prodigal Could Use Your Patience -

"Was Charlyne always patient when you were divorced?" No, she was not, but once she had heard from God regarding the future of our marriage, that all changed. Much like you, your spouse is living in a turbulent, confused state right now. You showing your spouse patience would be a welcomed gift by them.

* Your Prodigal Could Use Your Permission -

I have shared previously about the day that Charlyne told me, "I read something that may help you." The words she then shared about living with one foot in each of two worlds were timely in my decision to come home. She was saying, "I understand . . ." and not, "I demand . . ."

* Your Prodigal Could Use Your Perseverance -

From the first time I heard my wife utter the word "standing" about 24 years ago, right up until today, I have known one thing; my wife was not about to give up on what God had promised for her marriage. Along the way, I heard that she would still be waiting in her rocking chair when she was 80, and that I might miss the best part of our marriage, but she was not giving up on me because God was not giving up on me, even when I was living in sin. What an amazing demonstration of love, for me to know that I had an "ex" who was not about to walk away because of circumstances.
If you want a super gift to give to your prodigal, determine today that you will never, never, never give up on the one you love. If you give up and stop praying, who will be there to pray for their protection and for them to come to Christ?
I am grieved of good people whom God has called to stand, giving up because a friend told them to find someone else, or who say they will stand only until the non-covenant marriage is legalized, or until there is a child born into the other relationship. They may be standing today, and give up tomorrow, but standing again by the end of the week. If you want a great gift for your prodigal, lock down in your heart and mind, once and for all, that you are standing until God does what He has promised you He will do, regardless of what happens tomorrow.

* The Prodigal You Love Has No Need For Your Threats -

Statements sounding like, "If you don’t have that check here on time, I’m going to . . ." or "I will tell my attorney to . . ." should never originate with a serious stander. Another great gift for your prodigal is to get the term, "I understand" back into your vocabulary.

* The Prodigal You Love Has No Need For Your Tongue -

Believe me, your prodigal spouse knows everything they are doing wrong, without your telling them. Each time you remind them, you are stacking more chips on the "Reasons I can’t go home" side of the table. The battle for your family will be won with your knees, in prayer and not with a sharp tongue slicing and dicing your mate.

* The Prodigal You Love Has No Need For Your Temper -

"Did Charlyne have a temper when you were divorced?" In the beginning, she had such a temper that I was afraid of what she might do. Temper is another area where God touched my wife, after she became serious about standing for our marriage and she has not been the same since.

* The Prodigal You Love Has No Need For Your Taunts -

Yes, you may win the battle if you disrupt their plans, but in the end, if you don’t correct your ways, you will lose the war for your home. That other person is not your enemy, so even if you manage to manipulate until they are out of the picture, satan will send someone else along.

* The Prodigal You Love Has No Need For Your Trespasses -

No matter how many times my wife teaches about not spying on a wayward spouse, people who call themselves standers continue to do so, often at the expense of their marriage. For the sake of your family, please stay out of your prodigal mate’s personal property and activities.
I do not recall ever mentioning this before, but there were times during our divorce that I baited Charlyne to see if she would snoop. I remember one weekend leaving a note from the other woman inside our son’s suitcase. I had folded the note in a particular way so that I could tell if it had been opened and read. The note was returned to me without having been opened. Charlyne passed every sordid test I sent her way, to the glory of God.

* The Prodigal You Love Has No Need For Your Tough Love -

How many times you and I have blown it in our Christian walk, yet each time our Heavenly Father forgives us and allows us to start over again. Jesus demonstrates unconditional love, not tough love, to His children. When standing for marriage restoration, we have an opportunity to be like Jesus by showing unconditional love to a spouse who has wronged us. Tough love is saying to a spouse, "If you don’t do right, I will do wrong." That does not sound like words from Jesus.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/23/09 05:53 PM
Obviously you can translate prodigal as WAS.

Kevin
Posted By: Coach Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/23/09 06:22 PM

Don't buy their definition of tough love.

I admire you for "standing" for your marriage. I believe in what a covenant marriage means. Just make sure you aren't "standing still."
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/23/09 06:41 PM
Thanks Coach,

I am trying not to.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 02:06 PM
25yearsmlc,

I know that you think that I am the most stubborn man you have ever "met".

I'm really not trying to be stubborn at all.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 02:11 PM
I think you and 25 should get together and go bowling.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 02:55 PM
I'd have to fly out to California for that.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 03:08 PM
Kevin, I don't think Retro is in the cards this year for either of us. I told you I emailed him the info and said it was up to him. Silence speaks volumes. And so far she isn't being too nice, so it probably would only backfire right now.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 03:16 PM
I agree KJ.

I guess I just get to wishful hoping sometimes. I grow very tired of this situation more often than I care to comment on. But I again realize that it is not in my hands and I don't need to create another detour in this process.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 03:16 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I'd have to fly out to California for that.
Kevin


Sounds like a great GAL road trip to me wink
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 03:19 PM
I'm not sure 25 would think it be so great. lol. It would be an interesting trip. I'm sure she could set me quite straight with that time.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 03:22 PM
I could be her greatest project to ever succeed. Maybe she would jump at the challenge to completely ground me once and for all.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 04:58 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I could be her greatest project to ever succeed. Maybe she would jump at the challenge to completely ground me once and for all.

Kevin


ha. I remember her complaining alot that you never listen to anything she wrote; so, you must just want someone to type in RED on your thread again.

here goes,

Contary to your statement, your situation is entirely in YOUR hands. The way you feel and the way you act is completely of your own doing. Single, married, seperated, divorced, widowed, whatever, it really doesnt make one iota of difference. You and only you are responsible for your own personal happiness. Mend your broken heart!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 05:19 PM
Steve McQueen,

I do listen. I don't always act on everything. But I certainly listen.

I know that I determine my own happiness. However, that being said, it doesn't thrill me to have my family split up. I am not thrilled to have to go through this. My kids are not thrilled about it either. It bothers me that they have to go through this. It bothers me when I think about the promise being broken to them that they would never have to endure this.

But I have faith in God that my beloved darling W will come to her senses at some point and all of this will be resolved. I just wish it was sooner than later.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 05:48 PM
It looks like D11 is still sick and with her grandma. I haven't seen her for a couple of days. It doesn't look like I will get her back tonight either and then my beloved darling wife will have her tomorrow night unless she goes out with her friends. But I will get her back Saturday. I will have D7 tonight.

Interesting note. When I have both D11 and D7, D7 fights like crazy against getting up and moving in the morning. But yesterday morning, since D11 was not there, D7 was up and moving and cheerful and even pushing me to get up. We will see if that continues tomorrow morning.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 06:05 PM
"beloved darling wife"

This is just eerie.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 06:13 PM
Why is that eerie Stuck? I am trying to see her in a positive light as I should regardless of the circumstances. If I think positively about her, I am less likely to be angry with her. It is a way to remind myself that my W is loved and I need to keep unconditional love for her no matter what.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 06:47 PM
To call your W "beloved darling wife" a day after you were complaining about her being an irresponsible mother (in not so many words) is creepy.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for positive feelings towards the WAS. But that just goes to another extreme a little too quickly. You waffle between hate and love. And before you start saying that you don't "hate" her because of her decisions, blah blah blah. All your posts suggest otherwise.

It's these extreme flip flops that have people saying that you seem to be having stalker tendencies. AND before you say you are not a stalker, blah blah blah. YOU are developing TENDENCIES of a stalker.

You revolve so much of your feelings around her and are working so hard to force yourself into seeing her in a positive light, that you are deteriorating your own emotional and mental health.

Take your blinders off.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 06:59 PM
I have my moments of frusturation. It is not always a bed or roses in this situation.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 07:03 PM
25,

Are you up for bowling?

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 07:07 PM
"I have my moments of frusturation. It is not always a bed or roses in this situation."

We all do. But the majority of us aren't usually so extreme in our moods a year later.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 07:33 PM
I have been through my ups and downs. But I still feel passionately about marriage restoration. I don't think there is anything that can take that away.

Kevin
Posted By: Coach Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 07:36 PM
Quote:
But I have faith in God that my beloved darling W will come to her senses at some point and all of this will be resolved.


Not sure I get what you mean. Who's responsile for your wife coming to her senses?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 07:57 PM
Coach,

A lot of what I believe I get from the rejoice ministries website. They quote a lot of verses and apply them to marriage restoration.

They tell you that you need to make changes, but they also tell you to not leave God out of the equation. They tell you to turn your heart to God and His will and make the changes that He would want you to make and then pray to him and rely on him to restore your marriage in his perfect timing. They tell you not to lose faith just because your eyes don't see what is going on on the othre side of the mountain.

One of the verses they use is for this is...

23 Again I say, don’t get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights. 24 A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. 25 Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil’s trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.
2 Timothy 2:23-26

I only say that because of the adultery that my W is pursuing right now. But they tell people to pray that their WAS will come to their senses and quit living like this.

I hope that answers your question.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Coming up out of the ashes - 09/24/09 08:48 PM
Thread name change.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D K4D Rising #4 - 09/24/09 08:52 PM
Changing it back now. It was just a test to see how it works.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/25/09 02:54 PM
It is Friday and I anxiously await the miracles that will be performed this weekend by our Lord.

Kevin
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/25/09 03:19 PM
Kevin.... a bit of food for thought....

I believe He performs his miracles through us, and those around us. If you spend your time anxiously awaiting them, they aren't going to happen! If you want change, do the work on yourself to make it happen. If you want disappointment, keep waiting.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/25/09 03:24 PM
V_H,

I am changing me. But I am also looking forward to the miracles the God will provide.

Kevin
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/25/09 03:46 PM
OK then. Concrete actions. What are you doing this weekend, to improve you. Beyond anxiously awaiting.

I don't think I'll comment on them, I'd just like to see you put down in black and white real actions. Even little things. Or even just one. Not a "thinking about this", or "considering that".

One other thought. Being anxious, and waiting, are not actions or characteristics that are going to be attractive to you W. And truthfully, though I would not put words into His mouth, I'm not sure they are attractive to God.
Posted By: JayMan Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/25/09 03:52 PM
I'll use God's own words... wink


Matthew 6:31-34

So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/25/09 03:53 PM
V_H,

Tonight I have a birthday dinner I am going to. Tomorrow I have all day with my kids. Sunday me and my kids are going to church. I will get a birthday cake for them since it is my birthday. Sunday night I have another birthday dinner to go to. Tomorrow D7 has dance class at noon. I haven't figured out what we are going to do for the rest of the day though I will come up with something.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/25/09 03:54 PM
Ok,

Maybe "anxious" was the wrong word to use. I am eagerly awaiting what miracles will be brought this weekend.

Kevin
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/25/09 04:57 PM
hey kevin

give yourself a birthday gift and expand that list to include an item or two or three of something that is specifically designed to improve you. It is apparent that you will be busy with that nice schedule of plans that you have but it does seem devoid of things designed for your improvement.

just a thought.

T
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/25/09 04:59 PM
btw i enjoyed our talk last night.

have an awesome birthday. I still hope your team loses in a big way though ...sorry just being truthful.

T
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/25/09 05:06 PM
Hey Tomato,

I enjoyed it also. I understand you hoping my beloved Cowboys lose. But don't count on it. lol.

I gotcha on the improvement items.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/25/09 05:33 PM
Kev here is something you may want to look into, one of my consultants read it and says it's a pretty good resource. I'm not sure if this falls into your BA role but give it a look

http://www.amazon.com/UML-Business-Analyst-Object-Oriented-Requirements/dp/1592009123
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/25/09 05:40 PM
VD,

Oddly enough I was just looking at that book the other day at Barnes and Noble and thinking I am going to get it as soon as I am done with my Head First Software Development book.

Thanks for the additional recommendation.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/25/09 06:12 PM
This could be worth a look to. It is an online video tutorial. But I don't know how much of it is IT related.

http://www.vtc.com/products/UML_tutorials.htm

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/25/09 06:16 PM
It looks like it is IT based. I might look at that one.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/25/09 06:16 PM
So it is japanese steak house tonight and then SUSHI!!! on Sunday night. Oh how I love me some good sushi. yummm.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/25/09 08:09 PM
It is kind of quiet on the boards today. Everyone must have big plans.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/26/09 03:53 AM
I'm thinking about taking flying lessons. They have a pretty good special going here.

Kevin
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/26/09 03:55 AM
OK, so instead of just thinking, take time this weekend, and schedule an introductory flight. I don't know it for a fact, but I imagine they still do that for free! Maybe you fan't do it this weekend, but get it scheduled!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/26/09 04:04 AM
The introductory flight special is $125 for a half our of on ground and in air. I guess if it is usually free, then maybe that isn't such a good deal. But I am still thinking about doing it anyways. I have been up in a private plane twice with my uncle who owned one and I loved it. But I never pursued it for many different reasons. But now, why not?

Kevin
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/26/09 04:16 AM
Well, it has been years! The free one was just an up and down, to convince you that you wanted to come back. Do it!
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/26/09 05:07 AM
That's on my list as well. Hope you get up in the air tomorrow! Let us know how it goes.
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/26/09 05:12 AM
It's worth doing. There is nothing like it.

I haven't done it for years.... kids, time, money.... but I say go for it!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/26/09 05:15 AM
Well, it won't be tomorrow since I have my kids. But I could do it next Saturday which I am thinking of doing. That would be a form of a 180 wouldn't it. That is something I would thoroughly enjoy doing for me.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/26/09 05:17 AM
Now you got me thinking.
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/26/09 05:17 AM
Exactly! Schedule it tomorrow so you have a date and time set. It's a step in the right direction!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/26/09 05:21 AM
You know what. I am going to do it. I'm going to call tomorrow to schedule for next Saturday.

Thanks guys.

Kevin
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/26/09 05:22 AM
There you go! Action beats thinking! It really works!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/26/09 05:28 AM
Quote:
Now you got me thinking.


Do it C-Bart. I know I loved it when I was up in the air with my uncle. I thought how amazing it was and wanted to do it more. But with family and money not always there and time, etc I never got back to it.

But it was something that I really liked just for me. We can compare notes after we both do it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/26/09 05:33 AM
Thanks V_H.

You are right.

Kevin
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/26/09 05:36 AM
I'm not letting you forget!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/26/09 05:53 AM
I'm also going to get my electric guitar back from my W's house and start playing again. I used to play years ago. It would be fun to get good enough again to get into a band and jam out.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/26/09 06:01 AM
Ok, so I have 2 action plans just for me and me only. I'm looking forward to it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/26/09 08:58 PM
I am not going to be able to afford the flight lessons. Oh well, I will find something else I enjoy. I can still pick my guitar back up and start playing again.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/27/09 03:11 PM
It is my birthday today. I am 35 today. Off to mass now. Catch yall later.

Kevin
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/27/09 04:37 PM
Happy Birthday!!! Enjoy it.
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/27/09 07:15 PM
Happy birthday Kevin!!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/27/09 07:24 PM
Thanks yall,

We went to mass and then I took the girls out for a pizza lunch. We all enjoyed it. Now we are back resting and I will be taking the girls back to W's house at 6 and then having dinner with some friends. D7 said she wishes she could stay tonight. But I told her it is her moms turn to be with them. It should be a good restful afternoon.

Kevin
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/27/09 10:21 PM
Happy Birthday, man!
Posted By: breakaway Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/27/09 11:25 PM
Happy Birthday, Kevin.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/28/09 06:35 AM
Happy Birthday Kevin.
j-
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/28/09 01:14 PM
Hope u had a great Bday!!!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/28/09 01:44 PM
Thank you all.

I did have a good birthday. I got to spend the first half of it with my girls and last night I went for sushi with friends and had a very good time.

I can't complain. Well, I am 35 now so it is time to turn over a new leaf and get my life back on the right track. I am into this a full year now and its time to go forward with some things for me. It is time to get serious about what I am going to be doing for a while.

And so it begins...

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/28/09 04:28 PM
I like it! Good luck!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/28/09 06:32 PM
Thanks.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/28/09 08:36 PM
I haven't seen davidswife in a while. I hope all is going ok for her.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/28/09 08:57 PM
My dearly beloved W did manage to get in a Happy Birthday to me yesterday as she called to let me know when she would be heading back into town so I could drop off the kids. I thought that was very nice of her to squeeze that in. Although she did mention the D again to. lol.

We were talking about D11 and her attitude issues lately and W said that it is the case even with both parents in the house and worse for others so she doesn't believe the D has anything to do with it.

I didn't say anything as I think part of it is the age. But I think part of it is the D also. D7 points out to me once in a while that she is one of 3 kids in her class whose parents are not together. I know that bothers her. I tell her that we both love her.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/28/09 09:27 PM
I did want to take a moment to say thank you to everyone that helped me out and stuck by me while I was in Florida. I will never forget that. I was at my lowest point ever while I was there and I don't know what I would have done without yall while I was there.

So thank you all. You know who you are.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/29/09 03:33 PM
It be Tuesday.

I am taking D11 to her C appointment tonight as well as talking to the C in person about myself possibly doing C with her.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/29/09 06:22 PM
I have dinner tonight with some friends after D11's C appointment. That should be fun.

Kevin
Posted By: BobbiJo Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/29/09 06:36 PM
Hope you have a great dinner Kevin! smile
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/29/09 07:03 PM
Thanks BBJ.

I hope you are doing well.

Kevin
Posted By: BobbiJo Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/29/09 07:07 PM
I am doing well. But I am on a diet (Nutrisystem) so I live vicariously through other people's food. Go eat some steak for me! smile
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/29/09 07:15 PM
lol, I am going to a mongolian grill, so I don't know what all they will have. But I will eat something good for you.

My beloved W is going to pick up D11 from her C appointment so I can join my friends on time.

Kevin
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/29/09 07:26 PM
Quote:
I am going to a mongolian grill


Ooh, I have not been to one of those in years, now you made me hungry! They cook your dinner on a huge grill in front of you, and you pick all the fixings, it's darn good.

Hope you have a fun night out!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/29/09 09:19 PM
Thank ya.

My dearly beloved W recommended it to me. Perhaps one day I can persuade her to join me there. Oh what a meal that will be.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 12:02 AM
Happy belated, Kevin. I was out of town and didn't post while I was away.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 12:07 AM
Happy belated Kevin.
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 03:02 AM
How was dinner - I love when they cook the food right in front of you. I took my kids last spring and they loved it and want to go again!!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 04:05 AM
Thanks for the birthday wishes again. Dinner was very good. I had 3 bowls of food. It was amazing.

An interesting conversation took place between me and W tonight. This is the first time she has asked my advice on something in forever. I will let yall determine whether she still is interested in my opinion.
W says:
so i have a dilemma
Kevin says:
How did counseling go for D11 tonight?
what is your dilemma?
W says:
she said great
Sister, in her infinite wisdom, has made reservations for mom's birthday
at five sixty on top of reunion arena tower
on thurs night for all of us
i've looked at the menu...not a darn thing on there i want to eat but sushi and certainly not anything the girls want to eat
and it's a wolfgang puck restaurant. so its expensive.
sister has asked if i could get you to watch the girls that night while i go to dinner with them b/c i said i was not paying for the girls to eat there.
i'm of the opinion that its rude to leave the girls out of mom's birthday.
and its rude to expect me to pay for that kind of meal when i may be out of a job in a month or so
so i'm thinking about skipping and just paying for mom's meal and making that my birthday present to her. thoughts?
Kevin says:
I think that is the smart move
W says:
maybe take her out to eat on sunday with the girls for lunch
Kevin says:
no sense in wasting money when you are about to be out of a job
and SIL isn't paying anything anyways
W says:
well and i just think it would be sh*tty to leave the girls out of it too
Kevin says:
I agree
W says:
ok. good. thanks
Kevin says:
but financially speaking which is what you really have to look at
I'd say you are making the right decision and your mom and stepdad would agree
W says:
ok
thanks
Kevin says:
no prob. You know I will always give you the best advice I can
W says:
yes. thnks

Any thoughts?

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 02:19 PM
Yeah. Detach! Treat her like u would any other friend. She's still screwing other guys. Focus on you!
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 02:51 PM
Kevin you are to valuable of a person to be treated as someone's sounding board. She lost that privilege a long time ago. I understand that it scratches your desire to be needed but its not worth the cost you pay in the long run.

My $.02 is you handed it fine. Only thing you may have wanted to change was not to be option for childcare. "Sorry, I'd love to help you out but I've got something going on that night."
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 03:48 PM
Quote:
Any thoughts?





sure. don't over-analyze routine conversations.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 04:48 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
.....
thanks
Kevin says:
no prob. You know I will always give you the best advice I can
W says:
yes. thnks

Any thoughts?

Kevin


Kevin,
Yes, since you asked....here are my thoughts.

You say too much, with little substantive content, and then you over analyze it to death. This was not a "serious or heavy" conversation.

Instead of merely validating her analysis and moving on....you had to throw in the slight against the sil in a family that is already very divided. It was not needed or helpful if you are trying to project a positive image. Instead, you jumped in with a crummy remark about her sil "not even paying", then you reminded your wife of her own financial woes for some reason (Maybe she'll come back to you b/c she's broke??) and then at the end, you complimented yourself about giving the "Best advice" you can... Seriously, Kevin, Who gives crappy advice intentionally? No one. What was the goal there? Were you fishing for compliments or hoping she'd say another word of "THANKS" to you? For some reason you see great meaning in that word from her. I don't. It's just basic civility. I'm Sorry but that's how I see it.

Do you simply not understand the concept of detachment? Or do you just refuse to do it? I think it's a refusal...It's all over your past threads where a dozen people have explained it to you or referred you to sites that discuss it. By now, you must understand it.

I think you simply don't want your life filled with anything but thoughts/obsessions about her, which detachment would require and after a year here, you're still behaving the same way. Your mind is filled with longing for her even when she doesn't treat you very well. The only difference I can see, is that you post long unrelated scriptural passages here, when you are confronted too much about being a doormat or how her behaviors are not respectful, or how you are mishandling something.
Too bad.
(Okay, here comes the red print---)
You prolong the whole situation by refusing to detach. You actually hurt your chances of a reconciliation by needing to be around her so much and hanging onto every single tiny, meaningless conversation.

Hard to imagine you thought this was significant conversation, and it's just sad that you do. You gloss over (or don't mention anymore) her other references to the looming divorce, her lack of comment about any future together....oh - and her dating other men...and then hungrily snap up the crumbs of an ordinary conversation in which she complains about your d's not having fun with their grandma on her birthday...(& it crosses no one mind that you are also being excluded...?)

Detach or stay stuck forever. If you think detaching means giving up, you have completely missed the point. If you think detaching hurts your chances of a later ounce of respect from her, and the possibility of a reconciliation, you have totally missed the point.

IF you think detaching is mean or nasty, then you still don't understand it. If you think detaching means you have to GAL...THEN YOU DO UNDERSTAND IT BUT REFUSE TO DO IT...or you don't know how. Which is why I've said 100 times to get some professional counselling.

Most people in your situation would have changed their behaviors by now. They'd have done serious inner work on themselves--inner work. They would not respond to comments like these with incredibly long passages from scripture, in an attempt to "one up" the posters as if you "win" points by not responding to what we say - but talking about God.

Most people would not put their heads in the sand while proclaiming that "God will take of this so I don't have to change!! I don't want to change or become an independent or strong man...I want to keep needing her and needing her and projecting my neediness b/c God will take care of this and I won't have to work on ME!" That's how your scriptural passages strike me. Not attractive, and usually they are non sequiturs....(that's Latin for "doesn't follow" b/c they're almost always not related to what the person said and yet you use it as a "response"...but it is not responsive. Change would be responsive to our comments, OR admitting you don't want to change. The biblical quotes often strike me as very odd, when the context is either right out of the blue, or just after someone tells you to detach or GAL...)

FaithfulH, sandi2, brandnewday, safflie, and I are just a few who have restored our M's but you won't even listen to us. (Not to say that others don't have anything to offer but we've ALL said at some point in the past,) that you must detach. Why on earth won't you?
You have actually done very little in terms of new behaviors. Your w sees that. She is unmoved.

You're stuck, and apparently you are content with where you are. IF you weren't content, or at least comfortable enough in your "she's not divorcing me this week" mode, you would do something different. You would take advice that is deep, instead of a few superficial tasks. So I have to assume that this life of yours is good enough for you. Must be. Maybe someday getting better will be a priority in your life.

so those are my thoughts.
j-

PS what plans have YOU made for the holidays?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 05:42 PM
I don't have any plans for Christmas. I will just work through it and hope it passes quickly. I might be getting together with another family for Thanksgiving. W has the girls for halloween, thanksgiving and Christmas. I have discussed it with her yet. I don't have any family in the DFW metroplex and I won't have time to travel anywhere since I don't get paid for missing time from my job since I am still a contractor.

I see your point about scripture.

It did cross my mind about not being invited, but I am so used to it now I guess I just accept it as normal.

My W did leave town this past weekend for my birthday weekend. Believe me, that bothered me. But I shouldn't have let it bother me.

I don't want to know what she was doing out of town or who she might have been with during my birthday. All I know is that she said she had the best weekend she has had in a long time. I can only imagine.

I guess I shouldn't have commented on SIL. I think I just thought it was interesting that W was actually seeking my opinion on something. It is a rare case when that happens anymore.

No, I don't like living like this. I try to hang on to prayer and trusting in God to restore us with time.

It has been a year. I have learned a lot. I don't do the things I used to do towards her. There is no R talk. I don't pursue her. I admit it is lonely being at the apartment by myself. I don't enjoy it. So I try to do things outside the apartment. Inevidently I have ended up spending money I shouldn't have because of it, so I have to cut that out.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 06:42 PM
I'm really just hoping to get through the holidays as quickly as possible. I didn't want to have to go through this again a second year in a row.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 06:51 PM
I've got not much to add to 25's excellent advice. You do need to get your attitude adjusted to being a happy go lucky guy regardless to what your W is doing now or in the future. That is the thing that will make you attractive to your W or any future ladies should your marriage end in a divorce.

25 is coming at this as someone who had their marriage saved. But her perspective is not much different than myself and others like Mike from Tennessee in the "Surviving the Big D" section who thought you were batchit crazy. Just get yourself in a mode for a life without your spouse and you will have a better chance at having the life with her.

I wanted my marriage and floundered at first, but I discovered fairly quickly that I refused to be a doormat waiting around indefinitely on a wife with low morals. I grew a spine and enforced some boundaries with her - the most serious being my filing because of terrible behavior on her part of exposing an affair in front of the children. In the end, she saw that I had changed and gained emotional strength and she wanted back. I could have stopped the divorce, but I learned to enjoy life much more without her in mine and I dont regret the path I have taken.

So you have a choice of wallowing in self pity and praying to god, which will not appear attractive to your wife. Or taking your life into your own hands and making yourself happy, in which case you run the risk of realizing your wife is not worth the gum on the bottom of your shoe. But at least with the second option, you can move onward in your life with dignity and honor.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 07:17 PM
Quote:
in which case you run the risk of realizing your wife is not worth the gum on the bottom of your shoe


I have to disagree here and only here. My W is worth as much as I am and my children are and anyone else. We all make mistakes in this world. It doesn't mean that one person is worth less than the next.

Kevin
Posted By: JayMan Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 08:12 PM
Kevin,
I believe in marriage whole-heartedly and am devoted to my vows, wife, and family. I believe divorce is a sin - except in cases of adultery, abuse, abandonment.

I went through a searing soul-searching, read, studied, attended counseling, sought advice, poured myself into my kids, etc. I thought my life had ended, God didn't care, and I was a complete failure.

I watched W sink lower and lower, listened to her start losing her biggest cheerleader (D9), have seen her live this shallow life. She is with an OM that lived with his mom and dad, then got kicked out so started bringing his three kids to her 700 sq ft apartment. 7 people in a 700 sq ft apartment! smile

I watched my children grow to love me like I never thought it was possible, and I to them.

Seriously, I am ready to be divorced. My W is a train-wreck.

She has been counseled by wise people that care for her, has a husband that loves her dearly and gave pretty much everything for her. She ditched her family because they wouldn't support her affair, and even her very best friend in the world all of a sudden is very "busy". And she walks away from it all for selfishness.

So, you, just like I had to, need to realize you can't do anything for her. The "civil conversations" are probably just to make her feel like she's being nice. When she calls and realizes her wrongs, and apologizes for them, and gets before God, and makes things right - THEN maybe you can post about having a hopeful heart.

I am filing for divorce on Monday. My conscience is clear before W, and before God. She has committed adultery, so I'm free to leave the marriage, but not because I haven't tried my heart out.

I have discovered amazing friends, reconnected with old friends, reconnected with my extended family, grown
amazingly close to God, and am content, satisfied and happy.

Kevin - you are inching along. I do see some improvement, but I'm a super patient guy. You've got to cut loose of this.

Why do you think even Jesus himself gave an opportunity for divorce in the case of adultery?
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 08:31 PM
sure K4, pretend that Kerry & JonF are saying your wife is the scum of the earth and you have to defend her honor, keep pretending that's what Kerry is meant...
Or, better yet, don't deflect.
Good grief. You really don't want to change your life do you?

I can't decide which is the more powerful force in your life, your fear of being alone, or your inertia. Both lead to the other, ironically. The more fearful you are of facing life without your wife, the more paralyzed you are and the more likely you will be to have to live without her forever...and the more inert you are, the more she sees that you are simply waiting around for her, which is totally unattractive to her.

As Kerry & JonF are telling you, GAL, and learn to embrace life with or without her. I agree with them too, that you do not have to have your m restored to get this message of personal health and happiness...getting unstuck...

Fill your life with people and activities and stop telling us why you cannot do that and must stay inside your apartment. If you are so poor that you cannot join an activity UNRELATED to being married or sep, then you need another job or two.

Here's what I told someone who listened, and who is getting back together...and if this doesn't "work" to get you back together, let it "work" the way Kerry's GAL has, and be happy. Stop being stuck...we're all saying the same thing Kevin, but you keep pretending not to get it. Anyhow, here's what I posted elsewhere, to someone asking for support from a "Div Busted!" source...

What Worked for Me
Dear "X",
I think it's so important that we say something about our stories and what we think helped the most for our m's to reconcile and last.

As my signature says, I consider my M restored and finally can say "D busted". Not perfectly fine by a long shot, but we are closer than we've been in a decade and I think we're on our way to having what we once had, a really good M.

If you had asked me 3 years ago, or 2, I would not have said we'd be married today. I'd have given us a 10% chance of staying M.

After piecing for nearly 2 years, we attended Retrovaille, Not b/c we thought we were failing at the "piecing" so much as wanting to be "done" with it, if you know what I mean. Even though no M is ever "done" and we are always works in progress, we needed a boost. And so when we attended Retrovaille, we found that we were able to reconnect more fully without the past looming over so much. It helped us a lot. Gave us the boost to the finish line, so to speak. But getting to the point where you can even consider going to Retrovaille was the real struggle.

The main thing that turned my situation around in the first place, and that would enable us to go to Retrovaille, was my own DBing. For me and for almost all of us, that meant Detaching, GAL, etc
Letting go helped us get back together, and then forgiveness is what enabled us to stay together. Neither of these was easy.

When H actually left us for a JOB ('adventure") up in the wilds of Alaska... (crazy as it sounds, it was what it was, even though it's not how he saw it then). For me, may as well have called "Alaska" "Alicia" or OW...b/c that's how it felt....but anyhow, he left.

When he was contemplating it, I did the pleading and arguing and if I say so myself, I had a compelling argument that I think would have won a case in front of the Supreme Court. But to H, it was all for naught. He could not hear me. Or he would not. Doesn't matter. He didn't/couldn't hear so... whatever.

I let him go. To put it bluntly, what choice does the LBSer really have when a spouse wants to go? Hard as it is to admit...we really don't have any choice except how we'll treat their departure. They leave, and then we react. At some point, our lives have to be about our actions, not our reactions.
All we control is us.
That was it for me. I got sick and tired of feeling sick and tired, and did not want my kids to see a bitter or sad woman all the time. I did not want to be a model for victimhood OR revenge. They needed to know that all losses are surmountable. We can overcome and be happy again.

So I began to see H's departure as mainly a loss for him, less so for me and the kids. We had each other, after all. (And if he had taken the kids as some WAWs are able to do, I'd have made sure I got half time with my kids. And I'd fill it with good full living). I felt that at some point, whether H was lonely or not, I would not be lonely. I would fill my life with real living, and not waiting. And so I began to GAL. I started making choices I wanted to make without regard to H's career, or feelings b/c after all, he was gone. It started small, with things like seeing chick flicks b/c H was not around so who cares if he'd like the movie? Not about him, not at all. No more toilet seat left up either...(hey, I said start small...)

I saw some positives from this separation for the first time. I really started to embrace those positives. (H noticed this, although I did not know it at the time). For our anniversary I knew I didn't want to be alone, so I chose to take a trip with the kids that I would have preferred to go on with H but alas, since he was not available, we had to go without him. Just before departure he said he wanted to go but it was too late for that. Honestly. So off I went with our children. And we had a blast (We went to Italy, but any wished for trip would have helped me accomplish the same thing; enjoying life as a family even when one member isn't around. We had been in the military and knew lots of families who had fun together even when a member is away....we can all do this and must.)

Unbeknownst to me, h noticed this and ached for our company. While we were busy learning and seeing so much in a totally new place, I didn't think much of h b/c there were no reminders of him, and it was so stimulating, as new places and new activities are. (Hence the suggestion to go on a trip or take a class if it is at all possible). It was very healing for us. I did not do this for attention from H, and in fact would have preferred he not know of the trip and resent it. (Which I think he did, but that was not my problem....) I took the trip b/c I had longed to go there for years and had put it off until h was ready...well, no matter now! I was ready, and I went with some of my fav people; our children.

I think you get the point. There comes a time when you decide you have to LIVE NOW, and you can't keep waiting and checking on the WAS or taking their temperature, or wondering what it might be. You have to let them go. Sometimes they come back and then you have the real work to do. I think the chances of their return increase when you let go and I feel that strongly.

But paradoxically, you have to really let them go for this to work and you have to NOT care if they come back, in order for this to work.


So it ends up that you let them go so you can be happy without them and then either 1) they do not come back and you'll have GAL and moved along into your future that much faster, OR 2) they will come back b/c you let them go.

This is why I cannot understand the long term pursuit of a WAS by an LBSer. It does not work. I do get why it happens at first; we all do it. We argue and plead and whine and nag and cajole and yell and explain and talk and talk and talk....

But if we are lucky, we find DB. If we find DB, we should start to think, "what I was doing isn't really working, is it? So maybe I should try something else", and we begin the 180's - that mainly consist of GAL for us. No more excuses, no more waiting, or "praying for patience" but really just waiting, and no more just hoping and NOT changing ourselves, or taking charge of our lives b/c no one else will take charge of it!

Also saw that I was a fun person, still attractive and still smart and funny, and in sum, I was/am a good catch. I began to picture my life as a single woman in a positive light. Hard at first but I knew widows who were eventually happy, so why not me? Always projected upbeat attitude around H and saw his departure as a mistake on his end but kept it to myself, and accepted it as a mistake he seemed destined to make so I looked at it with resignation but fortitude, knowing I would be fine no matter what his sitch was. I began to see that he was really the one losing out the most, and that even if he seemed or was truly happier without us, that did not matter. My happiness (& the kids) was my focus.

And when I pictured my life without him but made sure to picture it happy, the more detailed the picture, the better I felt. Me happily pursuing my career goals, new hobbies I always wanted to do, spending time with my children and my friends and family and meeting new people and having a good life on my own. Doing new activites became a real goal of mine. Expanding my comfort zone... I became happy again. Tell you the truth, there were some real down sides to being married to my h... that I had to weigh carefully when H wanted us to reconcile. So we have improved most of those things and continue to work on them.

No more victim stuff, no more "making sure WAS knows how much pain I'm in b/c otherwise their guilt might not make them come back" and being blind to the fact that pity is not attractive, and will never get a WAS to come back and stay. Ever..... It just won't. If it did, it would only take a week for it to work.

Being attractive/attracting, is a byproduct of GAL and true Detachment....letting go and not wearing our "purple heart for our wounds", on our sleeves. Not making sure our WAS's know good and well what pain they've inflicted...and how much guilt is on them....why? B/C it does not work! Been there, done that.

Decide if you want to be "right" or you want to be happy. Too many LBSers, (and I was one of them) do not know how to forgive someone or let go of pain. I never saw real forgiveness growing up. But those who quote scripture to get their WAS back rarely succeed (never seen it personally) and as I said, guilt won't get them to stay...even if it temporarily gets them back. Frankly, it seems to send most of them running faster and farther away. Can't see how shaming someone helps restore a M even if got them back into the house. And in the end, if you want them to come back b/c they're healthy and want to restore the M in a truthful way, the guilt has to go. Is that "just"? Who knows?

Is forgiveness fair? I don't know but I do know forgiveness and letting go are essential to the well being of a marriage but I see a lot of LBSers who hold onto their resentment for a long time, and then they wonder why the piecing did not work. They are sometimes punitive, using "rebuilding trust" as their excuse to punish or shame their returning spouse. There is no need or use for that. At Retrovaille my h suddenly began to cry about the pain he inflicted on us and the damage to the Rs he has with our d's and I cried for/with him. No need for me to add to it. He "got it". But when I told an LBSer gf of mine this small story, she asked me if I "reminded h of all the hurt he had caused" and I was agape. She didn't "get it". She thought I should rub salt in his wounds. (??) She is still an LBSer without her h...and she's one angry woman...

I can only wonder how many LBSers are like that. Good God, what is the goal!?? If it's suffering you want the WAS to feel, then sue them for div and take them to the cleaners...but if you want a happy m, or just a happy life, then let your pain go. You are the one holding onto it (Peaceful, I'm not directing this at you personally, hope that's clear....)

Anyhow, I thought I'd post this so that people know there are couples who make it, even through this DB experience. See BrandNewDay, safflie, sandi2, faithfulH, or Orich for more. There are others too, but many times we don't keep posting here for a variety of reasons including that our spouses wish for us not to share any private info, or b/c we don't feel we "belong" here anymore.

But I Hope this helps you remember that not all is lost if you are here. And I mean that even if your div is not busted. ALL of the people I know who "worked the DB program" well, are happier now regardless of what happened in their M. They take charge of their own happiness and that seems to me to be the essence of the DB method of solution based therapy. Find what works, do more of it. Don't do what doesn't work. Work on you, let go of who and what you cannot control, and Be happy.

J-

Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 08:43 PM
JonF,

I didn't realize you were JDollie and still on the boards. I had followed your sitch for some time. I thought you had already filed for D sometime ago. Then you disappeared I thought.

I don't really want to get into the whole divorce permission for adultery discussion again as I have been down that path to many times. See page 92 for my final answers on any of that.

I'm glad things have improved for you in your life outside of your M. I know you were at this for over 3 years.

I can't do anything for my W but love her unconditionally, pray for her, and do what is expected of me as a H and father and that is something.

Believe me, she has her space from me. I don't infringe on that at all. She prefers it that way and I comply with it.

I don't know where people get abuse as cause for D in the bible. Not that I think anyone should live in abuse. It just always intrigues me when someone lists that as not being a sin for D. I have never seen that in the bible.

But that aside, I don't blame anyone for getting out of an abusive situation. Safety is #1 no matter what.

I am inching along. lol. Probably more true than I care to admit. Sometimes I don't feel like I am inching at all and other times, yup, inching along.

I won't be the one to file as Paul said, Husbands, do not divorce your wife. So I won't do that.

And yes I look at each week as W has not refiled for D as a positive. Some say it is just a timing issue. I saw the D get dismissed and I have seen the refiling constantly delayed, so I think there is more at work there than meets the eye. Here we are approaching the holidays and W is about to be out of a job, so I know she doesn't want to spend the money right now. I have no idea what happens when her job comes to an end. I am now trying to save more for many reasons, but that being one of them with the expectancy of my expenses to go up when W isn't bringing in a paycheck.

Kevin
Posted By: JayMan Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 09:01 PM
I apologize - I meant to list abuse as a reason to leave, not for divorce, but then again, God has COMMANDED divorce before, but we'll leave the theological battles aside.

Also, FYI - I have been pushing a dissolution since almost January/February of this year, and W kept pushing it off.

Anyway, just because I have chosen divorce, I have not stopped loving my wife. I have not stopped doing the right thing. I feel no shame in what I'm doing. You are not better or worse for me for hanging around.

I don't feel like you deserve applause for what you're doing, any more than I did for waiting for three years. Keeping your vows, yes. Not going out and sleeping around, great. Many admirable things have happened in this time span.

However, you pick and choose Bible verses to support what you want. You completely ignore 25's incredible advice, and you simply wall yourself off.

I have been where you are - I have watched my children to sink into anger and bitterness toward their Mom.

If I do not file divorce, (which Jesus HIMSELF allowed for) then I teach my children that it is OK to leave your spouse, shack up with someone else, and do whatever you please.

I can understand teaching them love and reconciliation, and indeed, my kids know I still love W, but they will know, that in their future marriage, they deserve to be treated with respect and dignity.

I would take a bullet for my faith, and I did pray very hard about this because I don't want to be wrong. What I discovered was that I was cramming God into what I wanted.

Are you?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 09:09 PM
25,

As usual, a great post that I cannot argue with. And you have no idea how happy I am to see that you and your H are back together. That always provides hope and inspiration.

I also see what you did to make it happen. But you did it for you and because of that, he became interested again.

Kevin
Posted By: ClingingToHope Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 09:11 PM
Quote:
I won't be the one to file as Paul said, Husbands, do not divorce your wife. So I won't do that.

And yes I look at each week as W has not refiled for D as a positive. Some say it is just a timing issue. I saw the D get dismissed and I have seen the refiling constantly delayed, so I think there is more at work there than meets the eye. Here we are approaching the holidays and W is about to be out of a job, so I know she doesn't want to spend the money right now. I have no idea what happens when her job comes to an end. I am now trying to save more for many reasons, but that being one of them with the expectancy of my expenses to go up when W isn't bringing in a paycheck.


I guess I'm like you inching along, inching along. My W originally said she wouldn't file until 2010 because she wants to get on her pre-paid legal plan offered through her job.

So I guess January will be a big month for me. My six month lease is up that month. She'll be having to prepare for summer camps for the kids -- that was $2,500 this year.

It'll be interesting if she files that month or not. My job is to do what you are doing, love unconditionally, work on bettering myself and be the best father I can.

That being said, I've seen threads on here where people are still married but have been apart for three years while the WAS is on his or her second or third relationship.

I don't think I'd be able to be that patient either.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 09:24 PM
JonF,

I think you may have taken what I was saying the wrong way. I wasn't saying anything about what you should or shouldn't do. I was just saying here is one of the reasons that I personally am not doing it for myself. Thats all.

Am I cramming God into what I want? I feel that I certainly have done that at times. But I also feel that he tells us to come to him for help in situations that seem impossible. Ok, here come the 2x4s for this I am sure. Kevin, you haven't done everything you could so how can you say it seems impossible? Can't argue there. I have inched along on this roller coaster.

I think that you have made a decision to D your W, that is between you, God and your W. If you are at peace with it, then you are at peace with it.

I can't imagine my kids having to live in an apartment with OM and his kids. Ugg, that would drive me crazy. So I can only imagine how you felt about all of that.

I am not saying that I am greater than anyone else for my stand either. Lord knows you were at it 3 times as long as I have been.

Its not that I pick and choose bible verses for what I want. I have gone through and through and talked with others regarding what it says about marriage to the point of crazyness. I wanted to make sure I left no exemption, stone unchecked or unturned. I think I have possibly read every single scripture in the bible both old and new testament regarding marriage and D more times than I can count. I have talked with different religious leaders about it multiple times. Does that make me better than anyone else or know more than anyone else, nope. Just means that I feel I have covered the grounds needed to stand for this M come hell or high water. Thats all.

I am definitely not ignoring the advice of 25 and others. Infact my kids C is working out something where we can have an hour and a half sessions that include 30 minutes for me, 30 minutes for D11 and 30 minutes for D7 every other week and for only $20 more per session.

My biggest challenge is finding a passion and forgetting my circumstances.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 09/30/09 09:54 PM
ClingingToHope,

People are going to do what they feel is best for their situations. Whether or not anyone agrees or disagrees is a mute point. Only that person can decide for themselves what is in the best interest of them, their family and their situation.

It is tough standing through multiple relationships of the WAS. I can't argue there. I think my W is on her second, but I am not 100% sure. I don't enquire about it. I don't want to know.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/01/09 03:15 AM
Looks like I am lined up for C for myself.

I saw W for a few minutes tonight. She had to pick up the kids since I had to work late. When I got off I went to pick them up from her. They weren't ready yet so she invited me in while they were finishing getting ready. We briefly chatted as she was wanting to head out and do her thing. It went fine.

And yes I noticed that she looked quite attractive. How could I not. But I kept my senses to myself. As usual it kind of hurt being in the house with her. It is always painful for some reason and I actually feel anxious being around her. But I don't show it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/01/09 02:56 PM
So my C starts this coming Tuesday. I'm not really sure what I am going to say. But at least the C has already talked to my W and me together and knows the situation. And since she is talking to my girls, this really allows me to focus on me. And after all... in order for me to be the great guy that I have fallen so far away from, what better angle than to start with the greatness of the kevbo, or more like the deficiencies of myself that need to be cleaned up.

Kevin
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/01/09 03:57 PM
Good for you Kevin. Really glad you are going to C. Hang in there.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/01/09 06:01 PM
Don't plan out what you'll say or rehearse it. Gets you nowhere fast and simply validates what you want to believe. Let their questions generate a natural flow and discover what you need to discover.

If you have pressing issues that cause you anxiety then bring them up. Share feedback you've gotten from others if it hit a nerve.

If the c is good, their questions will provoke thought and reflection & growth, which means change, if you let it. There is no growth without change.
Stop resisting change.


j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/01/09 06:45 PM
Well, at least now maybe we can cut back on the "Kevin has to be the most stubborn man I have ever met" hopefully.

lol,

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/01/09 08:22 PM
So I have tonight, tomorrow night, all day Saturday, and most of Sunday without my kids. I didn't get much time with them last night since I had to work late.

This would be a good time for me to work on...

hmm...

still thinking...

Ok. I am at a loss. I could learn how to make sushi at home. That would be interesting.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/01/09 08:47 PM
Get out of the house. Those walls can be poisonous. Go to museum, park, mall, something. Just get out of the house.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/01/09 08:56 PM
Either that or maybe you can get some meditation materials and start meditating. Get some nice music, some incense or whatever and just stop thinking for a change.

Get yourself centered. Get yourself enjoying you. You don't need any place and any one else to do it.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 04:13 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Well, at least now maybe we can cut back on the "Kevin has to be the most stubborn man I have ever met" hopefully.

lol,

Kevin


Not sure what you mean. As far as I can tell, you are just saying what you said before; i.e., that you're going to work on you and get c. But you haven't done it yet. Now your plan is that in the future, every other week, you'll talk to a c for 30 minutes about...well you're not sure what you'll discuss --but we'll assume it'll at least touch on your issues....so I guess my point is when you actually do go, and then actually do what the c suggests, and when there are actual changes that you make in your behavior and thought patterns, and when you stick with them, we'll ALL be glad for you. Til then, I'm just seeing more talk about a relatively small amount of self work that might happen in the future. And I've heard it before. Remember?

Look, just learn to Bring something to the table for a woman/wife. Not your needs and professions of love. THAT IS NOT ENOUGH...if it were, she'd be back.

I don't mean to brag but to give a concrete example of what I mean--My h is an interesting man with numerous hobbies, who is well informed and knows tons of history and art as well as being very proficient & respected in his field. By nature, he is an optimistic man with a lot of energy. He plays sports, has hobbies that include scuba diving and does outdoors things a lot. He speaks two other languages. He is also well read and interested in a lot of things and wants to take a class in my fav passions just so he can better relate to what I'm doing. He is smart, and funny and very active. He has a quiet confidence and strength I find attractive. If I were not around, he'd have nearly just as much going on in his life.

When I read your posts I just get the feeling you are waiting for your life to happen, (mainly via your w.) That's not a life. And it's not working to get her back. And it isn't attractive. It's empty.

Fill your life, live your life.

Also, again You skipped over the real question in my last post. What do you not understand or agree with, about Detachment?
It's indisputably what you have to do.

j-
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 04:16 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
So I have tonight, tomorrow night, all day Saturday, and most of Sunday without my kids. I didn't get much time with them last night since I had to work late.

This would be a good time for me to work on...YOU

hmm...GAL

still thinking...DETACHMENT-NEW HOBBY-CLASS IN SOMETHING-SMALL TRIP-100 OTHER IDEAS COME TO MIND...none of which have to do with your stbxw.

Ok. I am at a loss. I could learn how to make sushi at home. That would be interesting. ARE YOU KIDDING?? No, you're serious b/c you didn't insert your "lol". You are not listening...

Kevin
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 04:22 PM
Kevin and 25 years, how are you two? I haven't heard from you in a while.
Posted By: JayMan Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 04:49 PM
Kevin,
Some of my days off:

1. Get all the housework done - this way I don't have to do it while kids are around (except for their chores)
2. Select one project to catch up - i.e. replacing blinds.
3. Play pool with buddies
4. Schedule friends over for the Buckeyes game on Saturday
5. Call my Mom and Dad - make sure my family ties are tight and good.
6. Checked out books from the library - nothing like lying back on the recliner, and getting lost in a good book.
7. Finding interesting topics to study Biblically - the Bible is an amazing source of history, and getting lost in God's word just can't hurt...
8. Talk about feelings with a trusted friend - one who knows my situation, cares for me, and understands me.
9. Signed up S7 for basketball.

Monday - I play basketball with community group on one night off
Tuesday - band practice, or "guy's night out, usually pool, bowling, cards, etc
Wednesday - kids, chores, small group from church
Thursdays - designated cleaning/project day
Friday - kids - movie or pizza or theater, their choice
Saturday - football, kids with friends
Sunday - church, lunch with friends/family

As you can see, I am busy, fulfilled, and happy, and I don't spend much money. I love the "new family" I am building with my kids. We feel like a unit now, just the three of us, and whether W had a good day or week or not doesn't matter.

What is your schedule like? You don't necessarily have to fill EVERY empty gap, again a good book and a recliner is awesome.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 05:16 PM
Quote:
Also, again You skipped over the real question in my last post. What do you not understand or agree with, about Detachment?
It's indisputably what you have to do.


I agree with it. I understand it. Just implementing it is harder than reading about it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 05:25 PM
Quote:
What is your schedule like?


On my weeks off I don't have much going on. The weeks when I have my kids...

Sunday night, get the kids between 6 & 7 and settle down for the week to start
Monday D11 has choir
Tuesday is an evening home or every other week C
Wednesday W has the kids so I usually have dinner with friends or opt to go to AA
Thursday is an evening home
Friday meet with priest then possibly rent a movie night and make pizza's with the kids
Saturday D7 has dance class at noon and usually do some cleaning
Sunday is church/mass and getting the kids ready to go back to their mom's

My week without the kids
Sunday night after I drop the kids off, I usually have dinner with friends
Monday mixed with friends or I could opt to go to AA
Tuesday mixed with friends or I could opt to go to AA
Wednesday D11 and D7 have church quoir
Thursday mixed with friends or I could opt to go to AA
Friday meet with priest, then mixed with friends or I could opt to go to AA
Saturday mixed with friends or I could opt to go to AA
Sunday I go to church/mass and usually hang out with a friend for the afternoon until I get my kids between 6 and 7

I don't have much of a hobby going on.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 05:32 PM
I do try to read/listen to the bible each night. I also stop by the church when I don't have the kids and pray on the way home from work. Sometimes I go and walk along a nature trail in the evening without the kids when I don't have them. That can be anywhere from 2 miles to 4 miles.

But not much interesting in my life. I watch the Dallas Cowboys play.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 05:33 PM
I guess I don't bring much to the table.

Kevin
Posted By: ClingingToHope Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 05:33 PM
My problem is the weekends, both when I have my kids and when I don't. During the week I have plenty to keep me busy. It's the weekends that are hell.

When I don't have them, I'm trying to fill the time and remembering how nice it was to have a family around to always keep things hopping.

When I have them, we have plenty of fun, but I haven't been able to keep myself from wondering what W is doing. I have the LBS problem of imagining she's having all this tremendous fun without me.

How about you?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 05:42 PM
Quote:
My problem is the weekends, both when I have my kids and when I don't. During the week I have plenty to keep me busy. It's the weekends that are hell.

When I don't have them, I'm trying to fill the time and remembering how nice it was to have a family around to always keep things hopping.

When I have them, we have plenty of fun, but I haven't been able to keep myself from wondering what W is doing. I have the LBS problem of imagining she's having all this tremendous fun without me.


Ya, I have the exact same problem. The weekends were hopping when we were together because we all did things with the family that no longer includes me and we did stuff with the girls together. W was good at planning stuff. A lot of times it costed more money than I was comfortable with, but we did it none the less. She has quite the life going on right now when she doesn't have the kids. She goes shooting, boating with people that own boats, plays poker, hangs with family and friends.

It is hard for me to think of something that I could afford, would interest me, and that she would find interesting as I would want to bring something to the table that she thinks is pretty neat also.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 05:43 PM
As far as I can tell, she also has someone else in her life where as I don't and won't.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 05:54 PM
I guess I have to be Mr. Fantastic in order to have any shot at bringing something to the table.

Kevin
Posted By: ClingingToHope Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 07:15 PM
Quote:
As far as I can tell, she also has someone else in her life where as I don't and won't.


That's pretty negative thinking. I've fallen into it as well. Here's something. A friend of mine who went through divorce said the dating thing isn't as scary as you'd think. He divorced at 32 and said all of the wives of his married friends were trying to fix him up with their single friends.

Hopefully, it's too early for you and I to think that way, but it's a small ray of hope.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 07:23 PM
What happened to that long list of things you wrote down?

kevin, you're sliding back into the victim mode again.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 07:33 PM
Quote:
Hopefully, it's too early for you and I to think that way, but it's a small ray of hope.


No ray of hope for me. I won't be dating anyone else.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 07:34 PM
Quote:
What happened to that long list of things you wrote down?

kevin, you're sliding back into the victim mode again.


Which long list are you referring to Stuck?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 07:39 PM
Looks like I could take free west coast swing dance lessons tonight from 6:30 to 8:30. That could be fun and would keep me out of the apartment for a while.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 08:22 PM
you mentioned everything from fishing, meetup groups, learning guitar, flying lessons, counseling, etc. But you always seem to have an excuse of why you can't do those things. Now you're back to square one.

I really think the group here enables you and you enjoy the attention because your W isn't there to do it for you. Your Mr. Fantastic comment is exactly that. You have two choices. Sit there and complain (which you have been doing) or get off your @$$ and do something. Anything. Just make a decision to do it.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 08:55 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
My problem is the weekends, both when I have my kids and when I don't. During the week I have plenty to keep me busy. It's the weekends that are hell.

When I don't have them, I'm trying to fill the time and remembering how nice it was to have a family around to always keep things hopping.

When I have them, we have plenty of fun, but I haven't been able to keep myself from wondering what W is doing. I have the LBS problem of imagining she's having all this tremendous fun without me.


Ya, I have the exact same problem. ...W was good at planning stuff. She has quite the life going on right now when she doesn't have the kids. She goes shooting, boating with people that own boats, plays poker, hangs with family and friends.

It is hard for me to think of something that I could afford, would interest me, and that she would find interesting as I would want to bring something to the table that she thinks is pretty neat also.

Kevin


K4, Why, dear God, did you mention HER at all here? Why say anything about HER, when you are supposed to be GAL for YOU? Who cares if she thinks it's "pretty neat also"???? OMG tired

This is what I mean by stubborn. I just posted PAGES & PAGES to you about GAL, how to DB, and how to re-attract your spouse BY LETTING GO OF THEM and not caring whether they notice it, or like it or get it or even know about it!!!....and then you say something that totally misses/ignores the point that has been hammered here by so many people so many times....how can you forget something 48 hours old? You also completely and I mean COMPLETELY - focus on what you lack in your life. It's negative programming big time. And you won't fix it b/c you don't even see it or want to. BTW, I bet it's superfun to be around that attitude.

Stuck is right! You like this attention. It's like Asperger's syndrome. You don't seem able to comprehend how your behavior or comments will be viewed. (Oh, I guess we're due for a long winded non sequitur bible passage now, b/c you are "caught"? You don't know what to say so you'll post something someone else wrote and "show us!" Please don't).

JUST LET GO OF HER & what you think she's doing/saying/feeling... and stop obsessing. It's really unhealthy and weird (and yes, pathetic) for you to be this way even now, and if you can't see that after all the info given to you over and over and over....this is useless. READ UP ON DETACHMENT however many times it takes you to GET IT!

Someone just throw a pie in my face if I post here again.

j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 09:10 PM
I was only thinking that I would like to do something that interests me but would also interest her so that I have something to bring to the table as you say. Thats all.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 09:20 PM
25mlc,

If you get tired of posting here, I could use a patented 2x4 on my sitch when you have the time.

Sorry for the hijack Kev.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/02/09 09:29 PM
No problem.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/03/09 08:13 AM
I did my dance lessons tonight. That went well.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/04/09 01:12 AM
I went out and bought myself some new clothes today. It was time to get rid of the bigger ones since I have lost weight. Got myself a new belt to.

Kevin
Posted By: jon2911 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/05/09 03:06 AM
That's great about the weight Kevin! Congrats!

Also big that your W slipped in a Happy Birthday. I haven't gotten one of those in two years.
Posted By: BobbiJo Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/05/09 03:58 AM
Congrats on needing new clothes. I am glad you did the dancing lesson. Sounds like fun.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/05/09 03:22 PM
Thanks. I have a friend who really came down hard on me for not taking better care of myself. So I am buying more new shirts this week that have style, getting a stylish hair cut. I have been working on my apartment to keep it looking nice. I am doing somethings that I haven't really done this past year.

I am trying to take pride in myself and my home and my car. It is taking a bit of work, but it is getting there.

I was told to spend at least 10 minutes in the mirror checking everything over before I go out.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/05/09 03:27 PM
Also having to remember to shave each day and not chew with my mouth open.

The details I am getting are good and coming at me hard.

Someone is working to clean up my act completely so that with time I will feel better about myself and maybe, just maybe, might W might notice. But either way, it is about me feeling good about how I look and my life.

Kevin
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/05/09 03:42 PM
Sorry for bumping but Kevin, 25, and anyone else out there that can check out my sitch and give advice I would greatly appreciate it. Don't know if I did the right thing as far as DBusting.

Thanks

K
Posted By: BobbiJo Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/05/09 04:05 PM
Kevin, I am doing much of what you are, for me, not for my spouse. I think the more organized we are, the better we look/feel, the better off we will be.

It is hard enough to feel stressed about my marriage, but if my house is a cluttered mess, if I schlump along in old, boring clothes, if I don't like how my body looks or how out-of-shape I feel, it is that much worse. That was me last Jan/Feb. This summer/fall I have lost 13 pounds, gotten my hair cut/highlighted, bought new clothes two weeks ago, and really focused on cleaning the house and organizing things.
Not trying to hijack, just agreeing with you that these are all GOOD, necessary things. It is so nice to come home to a house that is in order at the end of the day. One less thing to weigh you down, right?

And although it is about us, not them, it is still nice when they notice. My H had to spend the night at my house Saturday night b/c I went out of town. He commented that the house was 'spotless'. So, yes, they do notice...
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/05/09 04:19 PM
BBJ,

I am with you. They do notice when you make REAL AUTHENTIC LASTING changes. Anyone can pull it off for a day or 2. It is when it is consistent that they will start to notice.

I am having to learn how to be consistent which takes work when you are so used to the old way of presenting yourself and your life.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/07/09 02:33 AM
The girls and I went to our C appointment tonight and we all have homework to do.

Kevin
Posted By: jon2911 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/07/09 04:31 AM
Good luck on the homework Kevin! Keep the changes going.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/07/09 05:28 AM
Thanks Jon2911,

I am keeping at it.

Kevin
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/07/09 02:28 PM
Kevin,

Long time I haven't heard from you. Just wanted to say I'm proud of you for going to C. Not too many men would do it. You are in my prayers.

Lost
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/07/09 02:29 PM
Oh have an update on my sitch. If you get a chance could you drop over and give me some advice. Thanks

Lost
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/07/09 02:46 PM
Kevin,
Also wanted to congratulate you on the big step to IC. Hope you get as much out of it as I have.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/07/09 04:05 PM
Thanks all,

I am working it. And it is work. But it is starting to come along. I am realizing that I don't have to stay in this ridiculous state any longer and there are things I can do to make a better life for me.

Lost, I posted on your thread.

Kevin
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/07/09 04:24 PM
Thanks Kevin. I wrote some more to get your and anyone's advice on what to do when H contacts. I paid for 3 sessions months ago with Jody and she was great but now finances are really bad so I can't call her anymore.

Coaches are great and so is everyone on this site.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/07/09 04:36 PM
You can do it. Just remember it takes real hard effort on your part each day. You have to put in the effort. There is no question but that it is work. I am now starting to see what people mean about putting the work in. It is work mentally and emotionally to not let yourself stay stuck in a depressed hopeless state. You really have to focus and that is work. If you don't, you stay stuck and in misery. You can do it. I am having to and it is working and will work.

A friend of mine that I pretty much lost told me they didn't want to hang out with me this past Saturday night and that I needed to spend that time working on me. So I went clothes shopping and got some new things I liked that I look better in. I started cleaning up my apartment and making it look nice the way I liked. I just focused on me Saturday and I felt better after. I thought to myself, I can do this. I can spend time by myself and be productive and appreciate what I was able to do. It took mental effort, but I did it. And I am trying to apply that effort each day now.

It will take work to not fall into that trap of "WO is me". But after a while, it will be natural to look to the positive side of life and do for yourself and be happy.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/07/09 08:11 PM
Ok,

So some 180's I am making for myself...

Going to C and doing the homework.
Not letting what is going on in my W's life affect me now and keep me down.
Focusing on work, kids, and my home.
Dressing myself to bring back some sex appeal.
Making myself more confident. Thinking positively instead of negatively.
Spending some time alone to figure out I can be productive and happy doing things on my own.
Getting my hair cut tonight.
I might go hang out with friends and I might not tonight. I haven't decided. There isn't a necessity to do it.
Keeping myself up better.
Trying to look at myself as it is W's loss.
Realizing I am worth something.
Not sitting around being unproductive and depressed.
My responses to W are pretty much one or two words now when she texts me.
My focus is really coming into play now on myself and my work and my kids.
I am looking at what I can do to enjoy myself if things don't go as planned with different things.

Just some things I am doing differently now.

Kevin
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/08/09 03:12 AM
Kev, here is something I thought you'd like

Momentum:

I have the support I need to succeed. Many worthwhile endeavors are not completed quickly, but rather take time. I know that each experience I have builds on something I have learned or experienced in the past. It's as though I'm building a life brick by brick. The decisions I make and the lessons I learn may seem to result in only small steps forward. But with each one, I build momentum toward the accomplishment of my goals.
Whether I'm following an exercise program, learning a new skill or developing a savings plan, the creation process is a spiritual one. I rely on God for help, support and guidance. I trust the creative process, knowing that I have the strength, will and energy I need to succeed.

"Be strong and courageous ... for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go."--Joshua 1:9
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/08/09 03:20 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Ok,

So some 180's I am making for myself...

Going to C and doing the homework.
Not letting what is going on in my W's life affect me now and keep me down.
Focusing on work, kids, and my home.
Dressing myself to bring back some sex appeal.
Making myself more confident. Thinking positively instead of negatively.
Spending some time alone to figure out I can be productive and happy doing things on my own.
Getting my hair cut tonight.
I might go hang out with friends and I might not tonight. I haven't decided. There isn't a necessity to do it.
Keeping myself up better.
Trying to look at myself as it is W's loss.
Realizing I am worth something.
Not sitting around being unproductive and depressed.
My responses to W are pretty much one or two words now when she texts me.
My focus is really coming into play now on myself and my work and my kids.
I am looking at what I can do to enjoy myself if things don't go as planned with different things.

Just some things I am doing differently now.

Kevin



Yo Kevin.

These are good, man! You sound strong and resolute right now. Keep it up...no matter what!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/08/09 04:30 AM
Thanks ppenton and antlers,

I went and got my hair cut after work and then hung out with friends for about an hour. Then I came home and went to lift weights in the gym room for an hour. I'm pretty tired from that. But I feel good.

I am putting the effort into me and it feels good. I'm not going to stop.

Kevin
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/08/09 02:51 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D

I am putting the effort into me and it feels good. I'm not going to stop.

Kevin


Good, just keep going
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/08/09 03:04 PM
Kev,

Good for you keep it up. Are you still doing that, I think it was, 100 pushup thing? I finally found a nice gym to work out at, it's amazing how much better you feel getting that exercise in.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/08/09 03:09 PM
VD, I stupidly injured my back doing those push ups and now my leg has not quit hurting from it. So I am doing controlled weights in the weight room instead. No injuries from wrong form that way.

I am sore today from my work out. My plan is to lift weights 3 times a week and excerise at least twice a week. I am also going to real dance lessons now. They offer the lessons free at a couple different places on Sundays, Thursdays and Fridays. Now I just have to also get time back in to get back to studying as well.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/08/09 05:51 PM
Tonight it is going to be, pick up the kids after work, make dinner, then go excercise for an hour, then come back and clean up their room with them and spend some time with them and call it a night.

Oh, and we will get a short bible lesson in there as well.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/09/09 01:50 PM
I exercised last night. I went on the treadmill for 3 miles. My girls got their room cleaned. We had dinner together. Then we had a storm most of the night. We had to stop by W's house this morning on the way to school to get D7's jacket. I am not sure what happened to the one I had for her.

Tonight is my appointment with my priest and then me and the girls are going to put together pizza's for dinner. I bought the stuff to make our own. I thought that would be fun to do together.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/09/09 04:00 PM
BTW...

I do feel like I am finally detaching unlike I ever have before. I am starting to enjoy myself. I am not feeling that pull as much now as I have the past year. I feel somewhat released in the sense that I am able to function and pursue life on my own. I want my W back. But I don't feel like I have to have her back to function as me anymore.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/09/09 04:37 PM
Awesome progress Kevin.

I have believed all along that working on ones self and making one content and happy gives the marriage a much better chance of getting reconciled. And as an added benefit, if the marriage does end in a divorce, it allows one the ability to heal and move on much quicker. In a way, it is like a preparation for the worst case senario.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/09/09 08:43 PM
Thanks KerryK,

I'm working it for me. I am now seeing where I am much more appealing when I focus on myself than when I focus on W.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/10/09 07:13 AM
I will continue to post if anything worth while happens.

Thanks all,

CYA,

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/11/09 02:09 AM
Kevin,
Please check in every once and a while so we know how you are doing.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/13/09 04:32 AM
Proverbs chapter 29 verse 11
Fools vent their anger, but the wise quietly hold it back.

This is one I am having to apply during tough situations. I am learning it well to.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 05:57 PM
Quick question,

D11 has a choir performance tomorrow night at 6:30. W has the girls this week. Would it be to much to ask W if she would like to do dinner with the kids afterwards?

Kevin
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 06:01 PM
I wouldn't do it.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 06:16 PM
Ok. Thanks.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 06:32 PM
She would take it as pursuing. You are still making it about you. Respect her boundaries.

Sorry Kev. You need to detach and let go.

Give her 6 mons. then reevaulate.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 06:54 PM
Much apprech,

Thanks.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 07:05 PM
No Prob.

Dont forget the story about the castle and the picnic. If and when she starts to lower her draw bridge is when you ask about getting together. She needs to see how happy and content you are with your new life before she will even think of pursuing you again. Remember it's a game of cat and mouse. Be the mouse!!! not the cat. Grrrrr!!!

Work on that and then you could see some miracles.

Peace. PMA
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 07:17 PM
I'm going to go against the general group and say ask for the dinner. DB-ing aside, this is a special moment for your D. Let it be about her.

If you are doing it to get together with your W, then forget it. But if you are there solely for the purpose of supporting your D and congratulating her for her efforts, then ask. Only you would know if you can be distant enough to act accordingly.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 07:26 PM
Working on it PMA. I have to tell you that lifting weights every other day and then doing the treadmill on my off days has really improved me mentally. I completely changed my diet around and am eating much healthier and quite cheaply at that. I am keeping my place up and W came over and saw it last Friday and I feel better about my place as well.

I get my girls tonight. I will be taking them to choir practice at the church and then heading home for dinner and some time together. Tonight is my night to lift weights. But I won't see my girls again til Sunday, so I am debating whether to put it off until tomorrow. I hate to miss a day on my schedule though. I am working hard to be consistant. It takes about an hour out of my evening.

Overall I am doing good. I feel physically and mentally better than I have in a very long time.

I had dinner and went to a movie with FaithfulH and one of his sons this past Sunday night and that was very enjoyable.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 07:32 PM
Quote:
I'm going to go against the general group and say ask for the dinner. DB-ing aside, this is a special moment for your D. Let it be about her.

If you are doing it to get together with your W, then forget it. But if you are there solely for the purpose of supporting your D and congratulating her for her efforts, then ask. Only you would know if you can be distant enough to act accordingly.


Stuck,

I have really been handling myself quite well. I haven't asked W about doing anything together with the kids in some time. I think I will hold off here. I can always take D11 to celebrate Sunday night when I get her and D7 back for the week. There is also a good chance that W's mother will be there and that may kill any sort of celebration afterwards if they already have plans.

Probably best to just to not go forward with it. I think I will just show up and see the performance. If things look good during that time, maybe I will. But I need to monitor whether there is even a shot at an after performance dinner celebration with the 4 of us.

I appreciate the input though,

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 07:37 PM
You sound great. Nice job! We all knew you could do it.

Keep it up! Keep going to AA. Keep taking the girls to counseling. Keep working on your PMA and GAL. And if you happen to make some new "friends". Just use it as opportunity to learn more about yourself.

God Speed. PMA
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 07:57 PM
I guess on the one hand, I could send W a text saying "Do you want to do an after performance dinner celebration for D11 tomorrow?"

I will think it through some more.

Kevin
Posted By: JTJ Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 08:15 PM
Kevin,

Keep up the good work! Try to find out ahead of time when you will be spending time around wife and kids and set goals or plan ahead. Buy a new outfit, maybe some new cologne, Set a goal to lose 5lbs or workout 10 times between now and then. You get the picture. Hey everyone I'm Galing here!!!

Pray, hope, and don't worry!

JJ
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 08:21 PM
Stuck,

I decided to send the text asking about tomorrow night after the celebration. W texted back and said sure. We are now texting about where to eat after. I have to admit, I am surprised she agreed to it. That will be special for D11. Thanks Stuck.

JTJ,

I have been buying new clothes, got a hair cut, am working out and losing weight, wearing cologne. I am GALing.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 08:28 PM
W asked who was paying for it. I said I thought we would split the dinner bill, but if you can't afford it, I will pick it up.

Should I just offer to pay for the whole thing?

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 08:40 PM
I would offer to pay for you and your kids. If she cant afford to pay for just her share then I guess she is out of luck and wont be able to join in.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 08:46 PM
Quote:
I would offer to pay for you and your kids. If she cant afford to pay for just her share then I guess she is out of luck and wont be able to join in.


I appreciate what you are saying. But I do want this to be special for D11. And having both her parents go to dinner with her would mean a lot to her and D7. So if I have to pick up the bill, it is worth it.

Kevin
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 08:47 PM
kevin ..how are you buddy?
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 08:48 PM
Then why did you ask? LOL! If you knew what you wanted to do were you just looking for some validation?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 08:52 PM
CG,

Guess I just want to make sure I am doing things right. My question really was should I even ask her to pay half or just pick it up. It wasn't should I leave her out of it if she can't pay.

Plus it is her night with the girls and she could say to me to bad, no dinner. So it was either see if she will pay half or just pick up the whole thing.

I saw you just updated your thread CG. I will be anxious to read it when you finish updating.

Tomato,

I am doing good homey. I am getting into shape and GALing. I am physically and mentally in better shape than I have been in some time. I put pride into my appearance now and my home and doing better all the way around.

Thanks for asking.

Kevin
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 08:58 PM
great news pal. so nice to hear many positives. the devil is unhappy about our progress. let's make a pact to keep him very upset. Be with the Lord and He with you. He is so magnificent!

T
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 09:00 PM
I put a post on mine after not having done so for a while. The Lord continues the rebuilding process with me and my darling. Slowly but surely. Just trying not to rush things. That's when mistakes get made.

T
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 09:02 PM
guess you saw my bald-spot on the overhead snap shot from the mtg with clint & penny. I had a blast. They even gave me a copy of their recent book + a cd of their's. Awesome.

T
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 09:03 PM
That is awesome Tomato. I am with you on the Lord to. The pact will definitely be to defeat the dark one who I won't even give the satisfaction of calling him by his lowsy stinking name.

I will scoot on over and check out your post.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 09:05 PM
Quote:
guess you saw my bald-spot on the overhead snap shot from the mtg with clint & penny. I had a blast. They even gave me a copy of their recent book + a cd of their's. Awesome.


Don't feel bad. My hair has thinned to directly on top. I have been recently trying to see if there are any products that ACTUALLY WORK out there to regrow hair.

I'm glad you had a blast.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 09:19 PM
Great to hear. I had a feeling she'd be okay with it.

Be the gentleman and pick-up the tab. You should have told her that it was your suggestion and that you don't want to bring up any money issues. Just for everyone to have a great time.

Then don't say anything else about it.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 09:27 PM
Thanks Stuck,

I just sent her a text saying dinner tomorrow night was my idea so I will pick up the bill. Lets just all have a great time.

I left it at that. I appreciate the advice.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 09:29 PM
Nicely put. Great advice as always Stuck.
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 09:37 PM
Yeah, since you invited her, you have to pay.

Think twice about anything you say tomorrow. No R talk would be a very good plan!
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/14/09 11:50 PM
It's great that you will be doing a dinner together. Make it all about your D. Do not engage your W in any deep topics. If she brings any up just return the conversation to something about your D. Tell her anything else will have to come up another time, because its D's day.

Shine Kevin. I know you can.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 04:48 AM
I already blew it. Tensions got high by some unreal reason tonight and what the heck ever. She got pissy with me and I said well hopefully you are being faithful knowing that OM #2 is now in the picture and she hung up. UGGG!!!!!!!!

I hate her freakin guts, yet I love that stupid a$$ soul.

UGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 05:28 AM
What a bad night. I totally ripped her apart. I am so sick of the whore situation from her. She knows it to.

I think this marriage is dead. Why bother continuing on?

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 05:46 AM
Well that was quick. So what happened?
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 06:22 AM
Ummm, what were you hoping to achieve, Kevin? Did you expect her to agree with you? I'd have to say that for someone who claims to want to save their marriage, you have a pretty good knack for sabotaging it.

I think you need to decide what you want. Not what you think you should want, or what you think someone expects you to want. What do you want? Because right now, your words here don't match your actions, or your words to her.
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 12:27 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Why bother continuing on?

Kevin


Continuing on with what exactly? Having a good life, taking care of yourself? Or was that just a covert contract to get your W back.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 01:50 PM
Just as I thought, W canceled on dinner tonight.

C-Bart, what I meant was why bother continuing on hoping for a future with my W at some point. She is just so frusturating sometimes.

VH, I know what I want. I want my family back together. It doesn't mean I don't get frusturated sometimes.

OM #2 in the picture. What kind of loser is this? What kind of worthless loser steps into someone else's M and family and helps further tear it apart?

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 01:53 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
What a bad night. I totally ripped her apart. I am so sick of the whore situation from her. She knows it to.

Striiiiiike. Didnt you make the mistake of calling your ex-wife a whore once before? In case your daddy didnt tell you, you never ever never ever never ever never ever never ever never ever never call a woman a whore.

You know what she told all her friends about you after that comment, don't you?

Originally Posted By: K4D
I think this marriage is dead.

what in your interactions with your wife over the past 10 months has led you to believe otherwise?

Originally Posted By: K4D
I just sent her a text saying dinner tomorrow night was my idea so I will pick up the bill. Lets just all have a great time.

I left it at that.


you really should have! Why did you wreck a perfectly doable co-parenting situation for your children? Striiiiiike. TWO
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 02:10 PM
Kevin,
Just a thought. You may want to apologize to your W for talking to her in a demeaning and disrespectful manner. Don't explain, just apologize for the way you acted/talked to her. Do it for yourself so you can move on from this incident and get back to working on yourself.

Stay away for a while and focus, focus, focus on yourself. Do that until you get to a point were you don't have that giant pit in your stomach every time you think of your W. Do it until you don't wake up in the morning thinking about her and/or your M.

Then and only then re-engage your W.

You've got this!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 02:47 PM
How not to DB. Yup, thats me. I can't seem to keep from taking detours in this. No matter how much I work on myself, I seem to keep finding a way to screw up progress if there was any with my W. I surpress my feelings about the OM and then it comes out when my W starts critisizing me for something. And then I am the bad guy, not this loser who has no respect for M and families. Nope, I am the bad guy because I didn't show my W respect when I got tired of listening to her yell at me.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 02:51 PM
I did apologize to her. I don't know that it makes any difference at all. But I did none the less. It looks like we will be discussing the holidays here soon. It will be interesting to see how that plays out.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 02:55 PM
Anyways, yes. OM #2 has been confirmed. It is frusturating. I wonder how long that R will last. They are taking trips together.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 03:00 PM
Back to square one again.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 03:02 PM
It's called a relapse Kev. If you were still going to AA you would know that. And I'm not talking occasionally. You need a routine regimen.

Why can't you be honest with yourself?

You are an ADDICT. Get the help you need so you can safely move on.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 03:28 PM
Please get over it with the AA. What does the AA have to do with me and my W getting into an argument about OM #2?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 03:30 PM
W griped me out a couple of times before we finally got into it about OM #2.

It was funny how as we got closer to this dinner tonight, tension just really started rising.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 03:31 PM
If you dont know then that is one of your biggest problems.

Come on man! We've been over this. You are still demostrating addictive behaviors in pining for your w.

You need to learn how to deal with this addictive personality in order for you to move on. Alcohol is only 10% of your problem.

Keep on working on you.

If you love her let her go that is what she is asking for. Once you show her that "true love" who knows what she may do.

Posted By: K4D K4D Sucking #4 - 10/15/09 03:31 PM
That subject line is much more accurate than the one before.

Kevin
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 03:33 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Just as I thought, W canceled on dinner tonight.

To be fair, I'd say you canceled when you called her a whore.
Originally Posted By: K4D
W griped me out a couple of times before we finally got into it about OM #2.

It was funny how as we got closer to this dinner tonight, tension just really started rising.

Kevin

Exactly why I didn't think it was a good idea. You are not ready. And for that matter, neither is she.
Posted By: ClingingToHope Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 03:39 PM
A friend of mine gave me a book when I moved out, "The Power of Now," by Eckhart Tolles. One chapter dealt with relationships. His point was that many people are not actually in love with their spouses, they are addicted to being in a relationship.

From what I'm reading, it doesn't sound there's much love at all between you two. Try to find out if you really love your W or if you are just addicted to being married.

I'm trying to figure that out. The longer I'm away from her and the more I rebuild my life the less I miss her. I miss my daughters tremendously but not W. At least not the one of the last three years.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 03:41 PM
Quote:
Exactly why I didn't think it was a good idea. You are not ready. And for that matter, neither is she.


I guess not. I keep thinking I am and it always falls apart.

I was wondering where yall got the whore thing from. I went back and looked at my post and didn't realize I put "whore situation". I meant to say "whole situation".

Kevin
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 03:44 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
and I said well hopefully you are being faithful


There was this part, too.... maybe you didn't say the word, but you certainly said the idea.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 03:53 PM
I guess I was the fool and not the wise man as I did not keep my lips zipped.

I did tell her that she has become a whore hopping from bed to bed defiling our covenant and marriage bed.

I get SO FRUSTURATED with her sometimes. I need to not care. I found out about OM #2 last Monday. So for a week I just surpessed my feelings on it. And then she pushed me and pushed me last night and I let my frusturation and anger about the situation show when I was tired of being griped out by her.

I just wasn't sure where yall were getting that from.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 03:57 PM
Why does so much tension build up in me and her when we are about to spend time together? It just doesn't make sense.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 03:59 PM
I give her space and give her space and work on myself and then we are about to spend time together and all that tension just shoots back in there for both of us.

Kevin
Posted By: JTJ Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 04:01 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Why does so much tension build up in me and her when we are about to spend time together? It just doesn't make sense.


Because she is MY wife. I will not stand for MY wife acting this way. She doesn't care for MY feelings.

Stop setting all of those Land MY's!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 04:02 PM
Quote:
From what I'm reading, it doesn't sound there's much love at all between you two. Try to find out if you really love your W or if you are just addicted to being married.


CTH,

I do love her. I am not interested in being with someone else. If I was addicted to M, I would jump onto someone else instead of staying faithful.

I just sometimes don't show it with my actions. My emotions betray me.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 04:02 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Nope, I am the bad guy because I didn't show my W respect when I got tired of listening to her yell at me.

Kevin


I'm not making a judgment of good or bad when it comes to either of you. Will say that at this point your R is broken and being together in any form is negatively impacting both of you. Trying to work on your R at this point would be like trying to dig for gold in a flood.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 04:11 PM
Quote:
Will say that at this point your R is broken and being together in any form is negatively impacting both of you. Trying to work on your R at this point would be like trying to dig for gold in a flood.


It does seem that way. I don't know why it is that way. But I can't argue with you.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 04:18 PM
"My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires." James 1:19-20

"He who guards his lips guards his life, but he who speaks rashly will come to ruin." Proverbs 13:3

"Do not let your mouth lead you into sin..." Ecclesiastes 5:6

"Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. For, "Whoever would love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech. He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil." Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed." I Peter 3:8-14

"For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed." I Peter 2:19-24

"Listen, for I have worthy things to say; I open my lips to speak what is right. My mouth speaks what is true, for my lips detest wickedness. All the words of my mouth are just; none of them is crooked or perverse." Proverbs 8:6-8

"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger." Proverbs 15:1

"A hot-tempered man stirs up dissension, but a patient man calms a quarrel." Proverbs 15:18

"He who guards his mouth and his tongue keeps himself from calamity." Proverbs 21:23

I blew all of these yet again.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 04:24 PM
Kevin,
You want the old relationship to be die. Move towards something new but, do that after you have your ducks in a row.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 04:24 PM
Stop focusing on the progress you think you see w/your W. There is none. You need to wipe her out as much as possible and put the focus 110% on you. It still seems to me that you seek out any crumb and hang on to it for dear life and view that as progress.

You do realize when you bring up OM all you do is push her right in his arms? Right now she does not view you as married and the more you push the idea on her that she is betraying the marriage the faster she will run away.

The reasons tensions rise when you know you will see her is because you know you cant hold back and she knows that as well. No matter what the situation you seem to either preach, scold or bring up some sort of R talk.

At this point you need to work on you (not news) and I dont see a reason in the world that you dont consider filing for a D on your own. If she wants the single life then let her have it. Right now she has you on a short string and she knows it. Remember, the person who cares least about the R controls it. And right now she controls you, your emotions control you and the ONLY thing that should be controlling you is YOU.

Honestly (and yes, this is speculation on my part to a degree) if you really wanted to honor your daughter on her big night you would have scheduled a dinner during one of your nights w/the kids and then it *really* would have been all about your daughter. There was no reason it had to be on the same night and there was no good reason for you to include your W other than you wanted to play "happy family" for a few hours.

The mere fact that your W's first question was "who is paying" should have sort of been a red flag that her intent was not to honor your daughter but to establish boundaries right off the bat.

You read my latest update - since our court hearing my H couldnt contact me enough. Now I have not heard from him for 2 days so my guess is things evened out with his GF and their rocky patch is over. That is EXACTLY why I remained polite but distant with him.

You (and many here) seem to have this dream that this is all about a fog and one day it will lift. Maybe it will, maybe it wont. As long as there is an OM/OW in the picture NOTHING will happen and you will be looked at as a HUGE obstacle to the WAS happiness. Plain and simple. So bringing up the OM to your W only made her look at you (again) as the obstacle to her happiness.
Posted By: JTJ Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 04:26 PM
Great points!

JJ: "Man who wants to be alone does not Validate the opposite sex."
Posted By: JTJ Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 04:32 PM
Kevin meditate on this it has helped me alot:

Once upon a time there was a peas­ant woman and a very wicked woman she was. And she died and did not leave a sin­gle good deed behind. The dev­ils caught her and plunged her into the lake of fire. So her guardian angel stood and won­dered what good deed of hers he could remem­ber to tell to God; ‘she once pulled up an onion in her gar­den,’ said he, ‘and gave it to a beg­gar woman.’ And God answered: ‘You take that onion then, hold it to her in the lake, and let her take hold and be pulled out. And if you can pull her out of the lake, let her come to Par­adise, but if the onion breaks, then the woman must stay where she is.’ The angel ran to the woman and held out the onion to her; ‘Come,’ said he, ‘catch hold and I’ll pull you out.’ And he began cau­tiously pulling her out. He had just pulled her right out, when the other sin­ners in the lake, see­ing how she was being drawn out, began catch­ing hold of her so as to be pulled out with her. But she was a very wicked woman and she began kick­ing them. ‘I’m to be pulled out, not you. It’s my onion, not yours.’ As soon as she said that, the onion broke. And the woman fell into the lake and she is burn­ing there to this day. So the angel wept and went away.

JJ
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 04:43 PM
Quote:
You do realize when you bring up OM all you do is push her right in his arms? Right now she does not view you as married and the more you push the idea on her that she is betraying the marriage the faster she will run away.


Yes.

Quote:
The reasons tensions rise when you know you will see her is because you know you cant hold back and she knows that as well. No matter what the situation you seem to either preach, scold or bring up some sort of R talk.


I didn't preach or scold or bring up R talk until I got tired of her attacking me.

Quote:
The mere fact that your W's first question was "who is paying" should have sort of been a red flag that her intent was not to honor your daughter but to establish boundaries right off the bat.


That is a good point.

Quote:
As long as there is an OM/OW in the picture NOTHING will happen and you will be looked at as a HUGE obstacle to the WAS happiness. Plain and simple. So bringing up the OM to your W only made her look at you (again) as the obstacle to her happiness.


I know it.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 04:49 PM
Dont you see though that you are STILL playing tit for tat?

You didnt scold or preach until you reached your boiling point of being attacked. That is not the way to respond. It pours massive amounts of gas on a fire that is already burning out of control.

If you are tired of being verbally attacked by your W tell her in a polite and firm fashion: "W, I feel this conversation is not productive and we have veered way off the topic at hand. Do avoid further conflict and the exchange of words that are disrespectul and damaging as co-parents I need to end this call. Goodnight".

Your patterns are very predictable. She attacks and you attack back. You can walk away right or happy? Which is better? In the scenario you described walking away HAPPY with YOURSELF for not indulging her w/the reaction she expected would have been the best thing to do.

You are addicted to the drama it seems. As long as their is drama you get to have exchanges with your W. Its a sh*tty way to live and function. Eventually you will tire of it and realize no contact other than the kids is better than drama and nonesense.

You cant control what she says but you CAN control how you react to it.
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 04:56 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D

I didn't preach or scold or bring up R talk until I got tired of her attacking me.

I guess it's ok then....

How about, "I'm sorry, I have to go. Talk to you later."?

Might be better than, "Shut up, you bed hopping whore!"

You could even try, "I understand that you are upset, could we talk about this some other time?"

Escalating makes you sound like a four year old.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 04:57 PM
Quote:
You cant control what she says but you CAN control how you react to it.


I know. Believe me. I am so tired of putting myself in this position.

Kevin
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 04:59 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
You cant control what she says but you CAN control how you react to it.


I know. Believe me. I am so tired of putting myself in this position.

Kevin

Then don't put yourself in that position! Don't talk to her. Detach!

You can take control of your situation, but you won't do it. You can't blame her for that.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 05:00 PM
Quote:
I guess it's ok then....


No. It wasn't ok. I should have used restraint and just got off the phone and let it drop.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 05:02 PM
Quote:
You can take control of your situation, but you won't do it. You can't blame her for that.


I am not blaming her for the position that I put myself in. That falls on me. I should have used better control.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 05:08 PM
Yes, you should have.

I think a good idea might be to visualize your wife as something that can quickly cause you pain. When you and your W have a talk that starts to get heated/disrespctful or some sort of R talk imagine her as a stove. With each word that is said the burner gets hotter and hotter. Why would you want to touch a scorching hot burner and blister yourself? Logic tells us to NOT touch a hot burner to avoid both temporary and long term pain. Blisters from burns take a long time to heal and the healing process is painful. Your skin feels tight and hot and it limits your ability to function as your hand is not able to work as it should.

So, think of it that way. If you dont touch the burner you wont get burned. Instead, turn the burner off and avoid that blister that will hurt, take time to heal and limit your abilities to use your hand.

Nobody is telling you to ignore you feelings. Find a better outlet though instead of laying in to your W. Journal, blog or get it out here. Your current means of release are not appropriate or productive.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 05:30 PM
I am going to remember that analogy of the stove going forward.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 05:43 PM
Me too.
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 05:44 PM
Kevin -

Dont worry too much about this latest. In a week, it will mostly be forgotten.

Listen to what CityGirl says.

Dont arugue. Ever. When a man has an argument with a woman and loses - he loses. When he wins the argument - he still loses.

Learn to turn the other cheek.

For you to ever have your W come back and successfully piece your marriage back, you have much growth still. I can sense you are starting to feel like it is an impossible task, but it is not.


BTW... I have a gas stove. No warm up time for that. I never touch it.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 05:50 PM
It does feel like a lost cause.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 05:54 PM
JTJ,

I read your story about the wicked lady and the onion. I guess I am not catching how that applies to me.

Kevin
Posted By: ClingingToHope Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 05:56 PM
Quote:
Your patterns are very predictable. She attacks and you attack back. You can walk away right or happy? Which is better? In the scenario you described walking away HAPPY with YOURSELF for not indulging her w/the reaction she expected would have been the best thing to do.

In college I took a psychology course and they talked about how people get trapped in role playing.

Your roles are she gets made, you get defensive and she gets madder. Even if you both know it's destructive you keep doing it because you are familiar with how it will play out.

Defensiveness just adds fuel to the fire as citygirl says. When she's attacking you, listen to what she's saying. Let her go until her anger burns itself out. If you defend yourself you are not validating her feelings and that just makes her madder. It doesn't mean you agree with her or that she's right.

My DB counselor, Dottie, asked me to read a book by Faber, How to Listen so your kids will talk and how to talk so your kids will listen.

That has really helped me with D10 and may someday help with stbxw.

I look back on our last argument that led me to moving out. W was pissed that the house was a mess after she was gone for two days and that D10 didn't study for a test.

I got defensive because I had an ear infection and let her go on a scrap booking weekend even though I didn't feel like doing anything more than lay on the couch.

So I defended myself, which made her madder, and caused her to bring up other stuff to justify her anger. I countered that and it got worse and worse.

Looking back, I should have just let her ramble on, validated what she was feeling and try to figure out why she was really mad.

In the morning, after she had calmed down, I could have told her I was sorry about the house. I had an ear infection and couldn't keep up with cleaning.
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 06:00 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
It does feel like a lost cause.

Kevin


"For nothing is impossible with God."
Luke 1:37
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 06:06 PM
Quote:
"For nothing is impossible with God."
Luke 1:37


ppenton,

I needed to read that. Thank you.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 06:13 PM
Actually you were ready to go out to dinner as long as you understood it was for your D.

I have a feeling that the OM info you had in your head was bubbling beneath the surface and when your W talked to you (regardless of what she said) you took it as an attack or a comparison to the OM.

That's why the C for you was supposed to be important. Try building your self-esteem for a change rather than relying everything on God. Are you still going to C?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 06:14 PM
It is hard to focus today. I keep thinking about the major setback of this argument and how I probably did push my W even more into this loser's arms.

This guy better not have anything to do with my kids or I will go after full custody.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 06:15 PM
Quote:
Are you still going to C?


Stuck,

Yes, I am still going to C. I am not going to stop. I will see my C again this coming Tuesday.

Kevin
Posted By: TulsaTime Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 06:16 PM
j
Posted By: TulsaTime Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 06:20 PM
Kev,

Get back up on that horse! You have made a mistake, learn from it. You can do it. Sorry, first post ever but I've followed your sitch (and most everyone else's too) since the beginning. Now I just want to encourage you along with everyone else as well. God Bless!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 06:27 PM
Thanks TulsaTime,

I know I have to get back up on that horse. It just feels like that horse just ran off and I have to go chase it down and bring it back now.

Kevin
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 06:29 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
This guy better not have anything to do with my kids or I will go after full custody.


Focusing on the wrong thing here. Besides that, it's a battle you probably can't win.

Get back to focusing on YOU!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 06:32 PM
Quote:
Besides that, it's a battle you probably can't win.


I talked to a L. Actually if she does introduce this loser to my kids, my chances of full custody go up over the 50% mark.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 06:33 PM
Kev the horse isn't yours anymore. You need to accept that. It's off grazing in another pasture. Maybe someday if you leave your gate open you will come outside one day and see it standing in your yard.
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 06:34 PM
Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
The horse isn't yours anymore. You need to accept that. It's off grazing in another pasture. Maybe someday if you leave your gate open you will come outside one day and see it standing in your yard.




Wow. What an analogy.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 06:36 PM
I did a quick search Kev. Dont place all your money on that bet.

What are the grounds for a divorce?
Texas law allows for "no-fault" divorces. However, if one party is at "fault" for the breakup of the marriage, the court may take that into consideration in determining what is an "equitable" division of the property. For that reason, the other spouse may want to plead fault grounds in their petition. The statutory grounds for divorce are: Adultery, Cruel treatment (that renders further living together insupportable), Abandonment (for at least one year with the intent to abandon), Long-term incarceration (more than one year), Confinement to a mental hospital for at least 3 years, Living apart for at least 3 years, or Insupportability (which is the no-fault ground), defined as discord or conflict of personalities that destroys the legitimate ends of the marriage and prevents any reasonable expectation of reconciliation.

Bottomline. Either way the girls loose. What's best for them is for both parents to be civil and happy. You need to find what makes you happy with out her so you can be the best co-parent you can.

Thanks Antlers. When I saw the post about the horse it just came to me.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 06:43 PM
I wish my X understood this. We've had joint physical custody for a year and now she has made a petition for full. Unfortunately, her past and what it made her into will most likely give me primary parent. But, once again. My daughter is the one that is bearing the brunt of all her crap.

Protect the girls Kev. They are the true victims here.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 06:48 PM
Quote:
Protect the girls Kev. They are the true victims here.


That is what I am looking to do. They don't need this jerk coming into their life pretending like he is some sort of father figure.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 06:51 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
Protect the girls Kev. They are the true victims here.


That is what I am looking to do. They don't need this jerk coming into their life pretending like he is some sort of father figure.

Kevin

their relationship has gotten that serious?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 07:05 PM
I don't know. But she is spending a lot of time talking to him and they are taking trips together and spending a good amount of time together.

I let her know last night that if she tries to introduce this guy to them that I will go after full custody.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 07:10 PM
Why arent you doing the same? It doesnt necessarily mean dating either.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 07:13 PM
Quote:
Why arent you doing the same? It doesnt necessarily mean dating either.


Spend time with another woman and take trips with her?

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 07:18 PM
Moving on!!! Making new friends!!! Traveling!!! I think it's time you applied for a legal seperation if you don't want the D. Chances are she will say why dont we just get D'd.

Then you will see were she is at.

Acceptance is not easy, but necessary.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 07:21 PM
Do you think that was a wise threat? Because *all* your W needs to do is let her attny know that you are threatening her and I promise you things will explode in your face faster than a speeding bullet.

I dont care what state you are in or what the laws are... when a woman is threatened by an estranged spouse and that threat involves children NO judge will take kindly to that.

Basically you used your kids and her not having 50% access to them as a tool you would hope make her say "gee, I better ditch OM for the sake of my kids". Do you think that worked? Nope. In fact, if you think she isnt keep a log of some sort of each blowup you have where you threaten her about the children or call her names you are crazy.

You and your W are separated and if she is dating or taking trips w/somebody that is not your business. You have no indication or proof that this person is even interested in becoming any sort of father figure to your children.

But, since it seems that ya'll are heading for a D there is a chance one day your children will have a stepfather. And three grown adults working together to parent children is much better than three adults at odds w/one another causing continued strife for your children who are already very fragile.

Your attny is going to tell you what you want to hear. If you dont believe that call my H. His attny made it sound like this would all be 50/50 split and his adultry would not be an issue or the fact the state I live in classes me as "unhealthy" due to a chronic and incurable disease I happen to have. Guess who walked away with 80% of ALL our assets, 3 years of spousal support/health/dental/vision payments (I could have gotten 7), ALL the furniture, our apartment, the money to purchase a new car in cash and guess who has to pay my legal bills? So much for what my H's attny said, huh? That it would be no problem. LOL! The lovely part of it all is I didnt have to say a word. He dug his own hole. And you are digging yours. Do not use your children as a threat. And if your attny suggests that is okay then find a new attny because he is clearly a snake.

Dont make veiled threats. They will come back to bite you big time. Again, if you want some sort of structure then file for D. The courts, I assure you, will ORDER that structure and there wont be a darn thing you can do about it.

Your W is searching for *something* seeing how this is her 2nd OM (that we know of) in less than a year. How long are you going to be her fallback option for?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 07:30 PM
Quote:
But, since it seems that ya'll are heading for a D there is a chance one day your children will have a stepfather. And three grown adults working together to parent children is much better than three adults at odds w/one another causing continued strife for your children who are already very fragile.


I have to respectfully disagree here. It is not better for them to have someone acting as a father or step father that is not their father. It further damages them. I will not be working with this loser. My kids will know that he is trying to help keep their parents apart. I will not be expecting them to show him any respect at all.

Quote:
Your W is searching for *something* seeing how this is her 2nd OM (that we know of) in less than a year. How long are you going to be her fallback option for?


I don't consider myself a fall back option. I consider myself her covenant H til death do we part. Therefore, the door will stay open to reconciliation for as long as I live.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 07:31 PM
Quote:
Moving on!!! Making new friends!!! Traveling!!! I think it's time you applied for a legal seperation if you don't want the D. Chances are she will say why dont we just get D'd.


Legal separation is not an option in Texas. I looked into that. It is either married or not married. I was very disapointed in that.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 07:32 PM
Quote:
Dont make veiled threats. They will come back to bite you big time. Again, if you want some sort of structure then file for D. The courts, I assure you, will ORDER that structure and there wont be a darn thing you can do about it.


All I know is that is what the L told me. So I felt like I was informing W that this is where the legal side stands.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 07:40 PM
Wow Kev CG was nice enough to give you that great advice and that's the best you got. You can put your head in the sand all you want. The courts dont care about your religious vows. Sad but true. Get off your high horse and let her go or you will lose more then you are prepared for. Let God worry about her adultery she will have to answer to the really "High" court someday just like you will.

I agree w CG that you are setting yourself up bigtime. Show her some respect and let her go.

Afterall these hundreds of pages of post from all of us on this board you still think you have CONTROL.

Wow Kev Wow! And you asked what going to AA has to do with this. Seriously!?!
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 07:43 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I have to respectfully disagree here. It is not better for them to have someone acting as a father or step father that is not their father. It further damages them. I will not be working with this loser. My kids will know that he is trying to help keep their parents apart. I will not be expecting them to show him any respect at all.

It sounds like you are wanting your kids to be vindictive. And that you are wishing you could control your children's attitudes towards the OM.

As far as going for full custody based upon introducing the kids to OM - I've been there. My L told me that I had a great chance at full custody because of her and him exposing the physical aspect of their affair in front of the kids. But in the end, I dug down deep and realized I did not want a fight and what was best for the kids. In the end, I talked with OM and he is an ok guy and the kids get along just fine.

As much as you may despise what OM is doing, you gotta let it go.

Also, if you do get divorced, remember that you may find someone else and will also maybe someday introduce the kids to that person.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 07:43 PM
PMA_Baby!

I am just frusturated and angry. I don't even respect the courts.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 07:45 PM
Quote:
In the end, I talked with OM and he is an ok guy and the kids get along just fine.


He is not an ok guy if he helped tear your family apart and your kids world apart. That is pretty evil. He went after what he wanted and took it away from you and your kids and then wanted to be buddies with yall after robbing yall of your family.

How does that make him an ok guy?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 07:47 PM
Quote:
It sounds like you are wanting your kids to be vindictive. And that you are wishing you could control your children's attitudes towards the OM.


Not looking for them to be vindictive. But they don't need to show someone respect that has robbed them of their family and helped keep them in a broken home. That OM deserves no respect from them.

Quote:
Also, if you do get divorced, remember that you may find someone else and will also maybe someday introduce the kids to that person.


I won't be looking for anyone else. I made my kids a promise that I would not do that to them.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 07:49 PM
tear your family apart ?????

kevin your marriage has been over for a long time.
(even before you called her a whore months ago.)
when you gonna realize that?
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 07:50 PM
Yes, you know what ONE L told you. And it is not your job to inform your W of the legal side of things. Let her find out on her own or use her own attny to get info. Look where my H's attny got him and trust me, my H informed me of all kind of stuff his attny said.

Honestly, if your W did remarry and your kids had a stepdad and you promoted disrespectful actions towards their new stepdad then you are simply vindictive.

My stepdad is amazing. Granted, my parents were divorced for 15 yrs and they only got married 3 yrs ago but still. When my dad was dying there was not ONE visiting session my stepdad missed. And when we took my dad off life support and we ALL stood around his bed (me and my H, my sister and her H, my mom and her H and my aunt/uncle) it was my stepdad who had his hand on my shoulder and my sisters shoulder. That is a real man.

It was also my stepdad he told my father on his deathbed what great kids my sister and I are, that he knows he never can take his place but he will always look out for us and be there for us. You know what my father's last words were less than an hour before he died? Thank you. To my stepdad.

So basically you would rather have your kids miserable and full of stress in a house with a stepdad because you say its okay not to respect him? Right, that would just make your W miserable and sometimes I wonder if that is your goal.

The way you class people is damaging. Just like you did with the "Kid" of a counselor before you even knew a darn thing. Or how all the people at AA were losers and you werent like them before you gave it more time. Stop worrying about your W and start addressing your patterns that are destructive.
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 07:55 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
In the end, I talked with OM and he is an ok guy and the kids get along just fine.


He is not an ok guy if he helped tear your family apart and your kids world apart. That is pretty evil. He went after what he wanted and took it away from you and your kids and then wanted to be buddies with yall after robbing yall of your family.

How does that make him an ok guy?

Kevin

It is easy to judge someone and label them as evil. But you dont walk in their shoes.

My mother also had an affair and the guy she married also is ok. My brother and I learned to accept him.

Foregiveness is something you give yourself.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 07:59 PM
I have a very good friend who lives in Texas, in a suburb of Houston and her and her H are going through a divorce. However, via the courts they were able to put a temporary separation order in place. Now it might not be offically called a "legal separation" but temporary orders for custody, support/insurance and who gets to stay in the marriage home can be ordered via the courts. Dont say it cant because it can. They had a court date and everything and it was all made official.

It doesnt have the same "rules" as NY but it is in fact a form of a formal separation agreement...it just might not be called that. So unless the rules of Houston and Dallas differ greatly then I would check into that more. In fact, when I speak to her again I will ask her what it is called in Texas.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 08:01 PM
The covenant you made with God doesn't go away until one of you passes away.

This man is nothing more than a wolf in sheeps clothing. I have no intention of making my W's life miserable. But my kids are not going to grow up thinking this man is worth their respect. He is not worth their respect if he is willing to step in and help keep my kids world torn apart.

I will never be buddies with any man that tries to do that. You can think what you want. But these men and women that do this are nothing more than theives. They are not worth respecting no matter how friendly they may come across. If they had any honor to them at all, they would find their own covenant S and not further help tear apart another family.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 08:02 PM
Quote:
It is easy to judge someone and label them as evil. But you dont walk in their shoes.


Their shoes need to be walking in another direction and not into a family that is not theirs.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 08:04 PM
Quote:
I have a very good friend who lives in Texas, in a suburb of Houston and her and her H are going through a divorce. However, via the courts they were able to put a temporary separation order in place. Now it might not be offically called a "legal separation" but temporary orders for custody, support/insurance and who gets to stay in the marriage home can be ordered via the courts. Dont say it cant because it can. They had a court date and everything and it was all made official.

It doesnt have the same "rules" as NY but it is in fact a form of a formal separation agreement...it just might not be called that. So unless the rules of Houston and Dallas differ greatly then I would check into that more. In fact, when I speak to her again I will ask her what it is called in Texas.


CG,

I appreciate that. Nobody made me aware of that here and I talked to 2 L's.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 08:09 PM
So if your kids had a teacher that had to leave in the middle of the school year and a sub teacher came in, you would say its ok for them to have NO respect for the new teacher because it wasnt the original one?

See, with kids, when you say its okay to disrespect one adult you are basically telling them its okay to do that on a situational basis and that will only help breed a lifetime of trouble for them.

A stepfather is not tearing a family apart. First of all, your W could not get married to somebody else if she is still married to you. So, you would be divorced. End of story. You and your W tore your family apart by having poor communication and being lazy. Not all her, not all you, two to tango.

You still have a family = you and your kids. If you W chooses to build a new family once you are divorced then that is how it will be. Nobody tore yours apart except you and your W.

Just like nobody tore MY marriage apart except me and my H.

You dont pick and choose respect. How would you like it if your W told her new husband NOT to respect her kids and treat them like crap? Would that be okay with you? I doubt it. Think about that.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 08:17 PM
CG,

A stepfather is stomping on a covenant M. We have a covenant M. D by a court means nothing. If W were to remarry OM, she would be doing nothing more than committing legalized adultery.

As far as the teacher goes, I get your point. However, the teacher is not a covenant H or W and blood parent to the kid.

Yes me and my W tore out family apart together. But we still have a covenant M and any man that tries to step on it is not worthy of anyone's respect. I don't care how "nice" he appears to be. He is stepping into sacred territory and stomping on it. So no, I do not expect my kids to treat him with respect at all given his place in OUR family and OUR covenant M.

And if he treats my kids with disrespect, my W will handle that. She will D him. After all, vows mean nothing to her now. It won't last long.

Any man that comes into our family is nothing more than a selfish immoral evil theif. Niceness is nothing more than a disguise for the evil he is really committing against us.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 08:19 PM
He is purely an adulterer.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 08:25 PM
By the way, I am not judging him. I am calling him what he is.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 08:31 PM
These are my beliefs and feelings. I don't take kindly to someone else coming in to try and further stomp on our covenant M.

My kids won't either.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 08:33 PM
ok. Good luck to you!

I wont go round and round with you about this. I shared a very personal story with you and you essentially are saying that the man who held me and my sisters hand while we watched our dad die is sh*it because two DIVORCED adults decided to get married.

Nice.

BTW, my mom and stepdad go to Bible study once a week. My stepdad is the organist for the church choir and they attend mass weekly. They got married in a church. Clearly they are evil, disgusting people.

You are unreal.

When I had to submit all my paperwork to my attny I brought our marriage license issues by NY and the church certificate. Church certifications dont mean squat in court. He didnt want that - all he needed was the NY state one.

You are so preachy but yet so judgemental. I dont know how you dont see that.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 08:37 PM
Nicely put CG. Kev. I feel your pain. We all do. It sux but you both did this. You chose to ignore her cries for help until it was too late. We ALL did. That's why were here. Now the real question is are you going to let it defeat you or can you pick yourself up and move on.

Forget about the OM. It's between you and your w. It it's not him it would be some other guy that is trying to rescue the princess from the mean oger. Incase, you missed that. You are the oger and yes they all want to be rescued. Most want to rescue the other person right back. You need to really dig deep and make this about her and the girls. If you trully love her you would want her to be happy. What makes her happy is her choice not yours. You have to let go of the CONTROL and let her figure out for herself what makes her happy and in turn makes your daughters happy.

Stop preaching to her. You are not a prophet or a priest. That is judging whether you see it or not.

Let GO and Let GOD. Once and for all. You stuborn sonoffa...
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 08:52 PM
I need to take a break from this. I am really not in a good mood.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 08:56 PM
I am not trying to upset anyone, I am just really not in a good mood today.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 10:22 PM
Kevin,

Sorry my cold made it too hard to talk on the phone. Listen, your W has no right to just go off on you. First things first, you need to learn to cut her off, but politely.

"If all you want to do is yell then you can call back when you get yourself together and we can have a respectful conversation." One warning. Then say goodbye.

Find another way to deal with your frustrations, otherwise they are boiling just below the surface ready to come out at any moment. We talked about the OM thing. I know its a biggie, especially since your D was aware of it. But bringing it up in the heat of the moment didn't do either of you any good.

Find a punching bag, go for a walk, lift weights - something else other than spewing it to her when she's yelling at you.

Again, she has no right to go off on you all the time. She will respect you when you demand respect. Getting off the phone before you spew back also shows her respect.

Bottom line - its best for your girls, too.

Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 10:35 PM
Hey Kev, maybe this will help, if you meditate with this devotional
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/15/09 11:58 PM

Thanks for the link ppenton. That one is perfectly fitting today.

Kevin
Posted By: kara Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/16/09 12:13 AM
Kevin

Wifey is giving you good practical advice. You should also remember that at the end of the day if you want to reconcile with your S, you must be attractive to her. Not only physically but by behaviour as well. What you say and do.

You have a lot of anger in you that you need to rid yourself of in a healthy way. You will not be ready for a healthy relationship with your W until you resolve the anger you feel towards her. The anger is natural but letting it get out of control is dangerous. Find a way to deal with it as Wifey suggests. Get it out and find the cool in you.

Really let go while you pray. Your W is not a possession but a grown woman who will make her own choices whether you agree with them or not.

How does focusing on OM help you move on with your life? LBS give OP too much mental energy. Don't.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/16/09 04:58 AM
Yall are right about the anger. And I was feeling pretty angry today. Tonight went much differently than I thought it would.

I got to D11's performance and sat in the back. W and her mom and sister sat up front. After it was over D11 came down to see them and then spotted me and came up to see me. W's mom ducked out the back door as the rest of them started heading over to me.

Then W said I am welcomed to join them for dinner. Totally shocked me. I said ok. So me, W, and D11 and D7 went to dinner.

We talked about the upcoming holidays. I won't be with them for halloween. But for Thanksgiving they will eat lunch with W's mom and then W and the girls will eat dinner with me. W is going to make the turkey and I will make the rest of the stuff. D11 had told W tonight that we should spend thanksgiving as a family. W said they were going to her moms and I suggested they come to my place for dinner and W agreed.

I apparently get the girls for Christmas. I invited W to come over Christmas morning so we could all open gifts together and eat breakfast together. She said she might just do that. We also discussed D11's birthday and what we are going to do for that.

My BIL is flying in November 14th for a few days so W said that she wants to get together with us for dinner so she can see him. That shocked me to as she knows where he stands with regard to our M. I called BIL to let him know and he said sounds great that he was also hoping to get to see her and spend a bit of time with her to. My guess is that he is probably going to try and talk to her about the situation some. But I have no idea.

So anyways, W asks me if I have gotten health insurance through my staffing agency yet. I said no why? She said she is doing open enrollment and is going to take me off of hers but is going to keep the girls on hers. Ok.

I told D7 that I was going to start showing up to her dance classes on Saturdays when I don't have her also so I could watch her each week. W looked at me funny but said nothing.

So I have some upcoming moments in the next couple of months to try and shine in front of W again.

I was talking to a friend of mine after dinner tonight and of course it came up that I do want my W back. And she looked at me and said I don't want to hear you want your W back. She said I want to hear you say you will win your W back and I want to hear you say it with confidence.

Anyways, that was my evening. Definitely did not turn out how I was expecting it to.

Me and my girls are also looking at getting a maltese dog as well. They are supposed to be excellent companion and apartment dogs.

My W did ask me when my lease was up tonight. It is up at the end of December. I have to put in 60 days notice when I decide to leave. So I am going to be doing some apartment and duplex hunting this Saturday afternoon.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/16/09 01:59 PM
I am in a much better mood today. Got some good sleep last night.

Kevin
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/16/09 05:01 PM
Kevin,

I'm glad that you are feeling better.

I do hope that you and your wife can calm down a bit. This is a terrible situation and I know that your emotions are on edge. And please don't call the mother of your children a whore, even if she is acting like one. No good can come from that. None at all.

Keep praying that she will eventually come home, but you really need to start living as if she isn't. I too hope she keeps her men away from your kids. It just isn't right to have them around your kids. Not while you are still married.

Did you check with the formal separation agreement that someone mentioned works in Texas. If it does, you could stipulate that the kids aren't to be exposed to OP, and especially no overnight visitors while the kids are there. That stipulation seems to pretty common here in the midwest.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/16/09 05:50 PM
Quote:
Did you check with the formal separation agreement that someone mentioned works in Texas. If it does, you could stipulate that the kids aren't to be exposed to OP, and especially no overnight visitors while the kids are there. That stipulation seems to pretty common here in the midwest.


I didn't get a chance yet to check. But I will be looking into it.

I think last night went rather well considering everything though which I am happy about.

Kevin
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/16/09 05:55 PM
Yes,

I was shocked to hear that she wanted to spend some time with you after all that. I wonder why?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/16/09 07:06 PM
I think it was for the kids sake. D11 was pushing hard for family time during the holidays.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/17/09 07:23 AM
I had a good time tonight. I went out to the country and western dance club with friends. I didn't leave until after 1am. Tomorrow there is a dance seminar I am thinking about going to.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/19/09 05:01 AM
Well,

I continue to detach more and more with each passing day. My weekend was good. I was out til 2am Friday and Saturday night with dance friends. I had a great time. I am also keeping up with my weight lifting and continuing to dramatically change my diet. A lot of fish and veggies now. I am getting much healthier in many ways.

I have my girls back tonight. They went and worked out with me tonight so that was fun. We did some shopping this afternoon.

D11 got herself some chocolate coffee. She has started drinking it now. I couldn't believe it. So we bought a coffee maker and coffee grinder and cremes and sweet n low. She is very excited about making her cup of coffee in the morning. I'm looking forward to seeing what this tastes like also. I have recently just started drinking coffee again. It helps perk me up in the mornings.

D11 and D7 went to the state fair yesterday with their grandma and mom. W sent me a pic of her and the girls there yesterday. That was nice of her. Shocked me. I texted back saying thank you and I love the picture.

While I have my own beliefs, opinions, etc about marriage, family etc, I am still working on me and doing quite well I think.

I am establishing pretty good friendships and enjoying other people more and more.

D11 said a couple of things tonight that concerned me a bit, but her C appointment is Tuesday.

She said that when she tries to talk about me to her grandma that her grandma tells her "Lets not talk about him". That bothers D11. Then D11 told me that W told her that she does care very deeply about our M. Then D11 told me that if she did, she would be actually trying to work on it. D11 said she was also frusturated because she and D7 got into it again and she asked her mom if she could stay there while D7 was with me. Her mom told her no because she has plans and Tuesday is her only free night. This really bothered D11 that her mom appeared in her eyes to be to busy for her.

So I will be explaining all of this to the C on Tuesday so she can help D11 cope better with things.

Anyways, thats about it for tonight.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/19/09 07:01 AM
It is 2am and I am wide freakin awake.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/19/09 01:25 PM
I made it to work with only about an hour of sleep. Lots of coffee this morning.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/19/09 03:39 PM
I'm definitely not feeling any love here. lol.

Kevin
Posted By: june72 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/20/09 03:17 AM
Ah, Kevin,
I've been reading along and I thought you've really been trying. Good for you!

I hate a sleepless night, perhaps tonight you'll sleep great. I, on occasion, have taken 12 mg of Benedryl to sleep better when needed.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/20/09 01:51 PM
Thanks june72,

I slept better last night. But I think I have a cold now. Ugg...

Yes, I am doing better. I am DBing much more now.

Kevin
Posted By: BobbiJo Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/20/09 04:14 PM
Kevin sounds like you are doing a great job moving forward! (Notice I didn't say moving on, I said moving forward...big difference!)

Keep up the good work on exercising, eating well, dressing well, etc. It is good for your own attitude and self-confidence for sure. Dancing is a lot of fun plus a workout, too. smile
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/20/09 07:10 PM
Thanks BobbiJo,

That is exactly what I am doing. I am moving forward, not on. I have a group of guys/friends coming over to my place tomorrow night so that we can try and get a business up and going. I am pretty excited about that. We have the right people in place.

Ya, I am doing ok. My contract at work just got extended through the end of 2010, so no worries there.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/20/09 07:27 PM
What a difference a month makes!!
Posted By: jon2911 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/21/09 05:02 AM
Kevin,
Just caught up on your thread. You really have active, emotional threads, it's hard to keep up with! Good stuff here though.

I want to respond to your tension comment. Really start expecting that. It happens to me every time I go to spend time with my wife. There's definitely a spiritual element to it, you are under attack. On a practical level, there's just so much emotional baggage going on, so much has happened, but you still care deeply about each other. That she said that to your daughter is huge.

Don't worry about OM. I've been through a few myself, and I like to hear you say what a loser and idiot he is. You need to say that, and believe it. She's an idiot for choosing anyone else besides the committed husband she already has. She needs to find that out for herself. The covenant talk, man, I understand it, but that means nothing to her now. She has to want to be with you. I mean, really, do you want her to just honor a covenant without her heart in it? No, you don't. Lots of Christian wives do that, and it's sad. I honestly think more should leave to get their husband's attention. Not divorce, but let him realize what being alone is like for a little while.

Right now, she has a picture in her head that you caused all her problems, and the OM will make her happy. When she berates you, she's looking for validation. When you throw it back, it confirms what she already thinks and validates her decision. Every time you listen and don't react, it will catch her by surprise. There will be a time to draw the line, but affirm and validate a whole lot first. Trust me, it works.

Hang in there man, there are lots of little positives in your sitch. I know it's hard to see. Stay faithful. One thing we're all learning here is that you can't make someone love you, you can't make them change. Your W will have to choose you again, choose to go through all the pain of bringing up the past and working on it. That's a tough decision, but every time you have contact with her and it goes well it helps her to make it.
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/21/09 03:39 PM
Kevin,

I was catching up on your sitch. It is great news that you will be spending the holidays with W and girls. I don't know what to do. I asked H to D13 birthday party and he never showed. I didn't tell her I was inviting him though. This way she wouldn't be disappointed if he didn't. I was so angry, so I know how the anger thing goes but I didn't respond to his not showing.

I don't know what to do for the holidays. Do I invite him or no? So confused now. I think we should do what you and your W are doing and spending it as a family but I don't know what to think as far as my sitch. What do you think? I don't know if I should ask now or just wait. We are talking civil now when we have contact.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/21/09 05:52 PM
Quote:
That she said that to your daughter is huge.


Jon,

I am not sure I believe it. D11 pointed out to me that if it was true, W would be doing something about it. I couldn't disagree. W's actions speak otherwise since she is now with OM#2 and have really nothing to do with me unless it directly relates to the kids. If she does deeply care about our M, she has a real funny way of showing it.

I hope what she said is true. I just haven't seen her actions reflect it. It makes me wonder if she was just saying that to comfort D11.

Kevin
Posted By: jon2911 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/21/09 08:51 PM
Well, we all know how hard it is to put talk into action. I've found a lot of help from my Christian counselor in Austin. Really recommend his stuff: http://www.affairrecovery.com

He talks about when a wife cuts off an affair, she really has to go through a grieving process over the relationship. It has felt very good to her. So your W has some very tough choices to make in order to do the right thing. It's not as simple as "the Bible says", but you know that.

Hang in there, give her time. Maybe lots of time.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/21/09 09:00 PM
Quote:
He talks about when a wife cuts off an affair, she really has to go through a grieving process over the relationship.


She isn't doing a lot of grieving as she is into OM#2 now.

Quote:
Hang in there, give her time. Maybe lots of time.


Thats what I am doing.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/22/09 02:22 PM
I just found out my coworker who sits next to me is out with the swine flu. I have had some congestion the past couple of days and D7 has to. So I called W to check on D7. She said D7 has a little congestion but overall is doing ok.

W also offered to give me my girls for halloween. I was happy about that. I will get to take them trick or treating.

My dad wants to come visit me for thanksgiving, but doesn't want to be around my W as he is disgusted with her behavior as a W and mother. W and my girls are coming over for thanksgiving dinner, so my dad is trying to decide. He said if he does, he may just go somewhere for dinner and watch the Dallas Cowboys game. I told him I understand, but I have to take any and every opportunity I can get with W to try and turn the sitch around. He said he completely understands and doesn't blame me.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/22/09 02:38 PM
Hey Kevin -

That is rough with parents being put in an uncomfortable situation. Just this last weekend, my X came into my house when my mom was there. It had been about 2 years since they had seen each other. They only said hi and bye. And my X started nagging on me when she saw a tub of cotton candy in my house and that I was giving the kids a late lunch. She is on the edge of losing her privelege of being invited in my home.

I'm thinking that if you told your X that she is not invited to thanksgiving dinner with your family that it would actually work more in your favor for causing her to think that things are changing.

BTW... The boys should win easily on Thanksgiving as they are playing the lowly Raiders.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/22/09 03:03 PM
Quote:
I'm thinking that if you told your X that she is not invited to thanksgiving dinner with your family that it would actually work more in your favor for causing her to think that things are changing.


Well, the thing is that D11 pushed for us spending the holidays together and I invited W and the girls to come over for dinner for Thanksgiving. W offered to make a turkey. If I come back now and say nevermind, you aren't invited, it would make me look flip floppish I think.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/22/09 03:32 PM
I agree with you Kevin. It would sound like you are playing a game.

You know this but I'll say it anyway. Holidays, family time = emotional tension = emotional outburst. Just be ready and bring your best coping skills with you to the party.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/22/09 03:37 PM
Holidays, family time = emotional tension = emotional outburst. Just be ready and bring your best coping skills with you to the party.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/22/09 03:38 PM
Quote:
Holidays, family time = emotional tension = emotional outburst. Just be ready and bring your best coping skills with you to the party.


I will be ready. I am not going to screw this up again. I will have my best coping skills ready.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/22/09 03:54 PM
Just focus on the Cowboys and all should go just fine. The better game is Giants vs Broncos.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/22/09 06:30 PM
I am going to do my part and pray for God to do the rest.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/26/09 02:18 PM
From Rejoice Ministries

God’s Hope
"Let all that I am wait quietly before God, for my hope is in him." Psalm 62:5 (NLT)

Don’t get your hopes up! How many times have your friends or family members said this to you? How many times have you said it to yourself? Don’t get your hopes up! Why not? The explanation is that if you get your hopes up and things don’t turn out like you want you’re going to be so disappointed. Well, things just may not turn out like you planned whether you get your hopes up or not. I don’t know about you, but hope is what keeps me going.

"You will be secure, because there is hope; you will look about you and take your rest in safety." Job 11:18

There is a difference between our hope in earthly things and our hope in the Lord. When we put our hope in circumstances or people or things that the world values, there is always a chance that we will be disappointed. We may hope against a divorce and when it happens anyway we are devastated. We may put our hope in a new job that turns out to be nothing like we imagined. We may hope for a change in circumstances that never materializes. We may put our hope in people who let us down and disappoint us.

But hope in God is different. This is the kind of hope that is always there, that never disappoints, that keeps us walking. It’s the kind of hope that serves as an anchor for our soul, keeping us grounded when the raging waves of circumstances threaten to overwhelm us. Jesus gives us hope where there is no earthly cause for it. There is no "maybe" with this kind of hope. It is confident expectancy.

"We can rejoice, too, when we run into problems and trials, for we know that they help us develop endurance. And endurance develops strength of character, and character strengthens our confident hope of salvation. And this hope will not lead to disappointment. For we know how dearly God loves us, because he has given us the Holy Spirit to fill our hearts with his love." Romans 5:3-6 (NLT)

The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke recount the story of Jairus, a synagogue ruler. His daughter was dying and he had come to Jesus with hope that He would do the impossible and heal her. He didn’t hope in people or potions or programs. He hoped in Jesus. Jesus had agreed to go with him to his house, but had been delayed by the woman with the issue of blood. Meanwhile things had become even more impossible for Jairus.

"While Jesus was still speaking, someone came from the house of Jairus, the synagogue ruler. 'Your daughter is dead,' he said. 'Don't bother the teacher any more.' Hearing this, Jesus said to Jairus, 'Don't be afraid; just believe, and she will be healed.'" Luke 8:49-50

So where do you think Jairus was with his hope right about now? Don’t you think he would have looked at the circumstances – his daughter was dead – and given up his hope? Maybe he was thinking that not even Jesus could come against this. But Jairus did not give up his hope. He took his eyes from the circumstances and clung to his hope in Jesus and he was blessed.

Where are you with your hope? Are you listening to the people who are telling you your marriage is dead, it’s time to bury it, don’t bother Jesus anymore? Have you given up your hope? Do you think your situation is just too hard for Jesus? Be a Jairus. Take your eyes off the circumstances and fix them firmly on Jesus. Hope in God.

I know that sometimes it hurts to hope. It is much easier to give up our hope because we don’t want to hurt anymore. We are tired of the pain, tired of the roller coaster, tired of getting our hopes up just to have them dashed to pieces again. But stop and think. Where is our hope when we allow ourselves to be tossed back and forth by circumstances? Are we hoping in things or are we hoping in God? Are we looking at the impossibilities, or hoping in the God of the impossible? Are we going to be like the Shunammite woman who said to Elisha, "Didn’t I tell you 'Don’t raise my hopes!'" or like Abraham who in hope believed against all hope?

Where we place our hope is the most important thing. Hope in God never disappoints. The enemy would like nothing better than to steal this hope. For some of us, this is all we have left and he knows it. If he can get us to give up our hope in God, he knows what he can do with our hope in "things." We must guard this hope that lives in our hearts with everything we have. We may be discouraged and disheartened by events in our lives, but we must never give up our hope in God. It is much better to wake up in the morning with hope than without; with belief than without; with God than without. The hope will last much longer than the hurt.

"My heart is confident in you, O God; my heart is confident. No wonder I can sing your praises!" Psalm 57:7 (NLT)

"This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast..." Hebrews 6:19a (NASB)

How strong is your hope in the promises of God? Have you stepped across that faith line? Are you staying there? Don’t let the enemy steal your hope. Don’t let the darkness of the night extinguish the light of your hope. Don’t evaluate what God is doing by the way things look. Storms may be raging in our lives, but they can’t take away our hope. We trust in the Father of all hope; the One who rides the wings of the wind; the Creator of heaven and earth. Our hope in God is what makes this journey possible.

"But those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint." Isaiah 40:31
Posted By: jon2911 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/27/09 01:03 AM
Wow, yes the early game does look better on Thanksgiving. That's a change!

Kev, my wife and I skipped out on our families to spend last Thanksgiving together. One of the best things we've ever done. One of those "why didn't we do this earlier?" moments. We always felt pulled so many directions, especially with her parents divorced so splitting time there. I think without the rest of your family involved it will ease the tension somewhat, so good call. Hope it goes well!
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/28/09 05:00 PM
Kevin,

Wow as far as the Rejoice Ministries with God's Hope. It made me feel so much better today. Thank you.

As far as the holidays go, that's where I'm confused. If you get a chance can you stop by my thread? I don't know whether to ask H to come for Thanksgiving or not, and I didn't know the Cowboys were playing Raiders. Cowboys are my team and the husband loves the Raiders. Wow, very interesting.

I totally agree with jon, as far as the rest of the family not being at the dinner with you, W, and girls. It will be less stressful.

Jon, what do you think about my sitch? Do I invite him or not? Kids would love it I know they would.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 06:17 PM
This is the letter I am giving to my W. Then I will walk away and go on about my life as I believe that is what it has come down to. I will no longer entangle myself in hers.

W,

I am going to respect what you asked. I would just like to say this.

I obviously still have growing to do. The more I learn, the more I know I have to die to myself. I know that this is really all my fault now.

You had hopes and dreams that I crushed time and time again in our marriage. I deeply hurt you over and over again. I was controlling and manipulative. It came so natural that I didn't even realize when I was doing it. That is something that I am having to learn how to quit doing. It is not an overnight change after years of thinking and acting a certain way.

My job was never to lead you, but to serve you and the girls and love yall unconditionally with no strings attached. It was my job to be there for you when you needed me to. It was my job to meet your needs. I wanted you to meet my needs which became ridiculous but did not turn around and meet your needs. Marriage is supposed to be a full partnership and I was not an equal partner. You had to carry to much weight on your own. I burdened you beyond what any human should have to carry.

I don't blame you at all for how you finally responded. I pushed you in that direction over and over again. I am the cause for the world we live in now. It is a hard reality to accept and take responsibility for. But it is the truth.

I let my own selfish desires tear us apart and push you out. I didn't love and cherish you the way I was supposed to. The way you did me. You needed to feel safe and loved and listened to and important and beautiful and I did not give you those feelings. Yours and the kids needs became secondary to my own. How selfish I was.

I did not treat you like a friend, partner, wife, or mother. I did not meet you half way.

I judged you, was verbally abusive, drank to much and I was a nightmare to be around. You needed to get out of that situation. For me to assume anything else was selfish and distorted on my part. I pointed the finger at you for our problems and the truth is, all our problems were because of me.

I did not respect your boundaries nor anyone elses. I did not put importance on what was important to you and the girls. I put pressure on you that was undeserved.

I realize that you are right in that I was delusional in things I said and did. I did burden the kids and did not realize that it was what I was doing. I didn't realize it was just another form of manipulation and control. That is stopping here and now.

I needed to and still need to grow up more. While I am making some progress in some areas, I still have a lot of growing and changing to do. There is no way to get around it.

Unfortunately because of me, not you, this is the reality our kids live in. I created it. And I will spend the rest of my life making it up to you and the girls in whatever role that is.

I will not be going after any kind of custody other than just hoping that I can have them half the time like we have been doing. I realize now that it was wrong for me to let my anger and controlling manipulative actions get in the way. That was not Christlike on my part and not mature.

I have come to realize and accept that we do not have any kind of relationship other than business and coparenting. I tried to force one and that was wrong of me. I realize now that I cannot force someone to love me. That has to be earned through great sacrifice and true change in my own self.

I even tried to use God to fix us and just could not get it through my head that I had to fix me. I didn't realize what in me I had to fix and that it wasn't just going to happen naturally. I am coming to find out it takes a lot of hard work to fix something that has been so naturally rotten for so long. I thought it would be a cake walk and it is not. I can understand you not having respect for me as a man. I have done nothing to earn it.

I hope to thouroughly change me as a person going forward to someone you and everyone else can respect and feel safe around with time. I will not stop working on me to be who I should have been a long time ago.

But I will respect anything you ask and wish for. Your boundaries will be respected.

This cannot be about what I want, but what best meets yours and the girls needs.

I hope that you will forgive me with time. But that is only for you to decide if I have earned it.

If you need anything at all, please feel free to ask.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 06:28 PM
That, IMHO, is a great letter that should never be read by anyone other than the folks on this board.
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 06:32 PM
I agree with C-Bart. Though I'd leave out the part about it being ALL your fault. That's never the case.

I don't think I'd give it to her. But show her. Show your kids. Show yourself. Live up to everyting you said in that letter, and you will be a better man than you were yesterday.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 06:38 PM
I taught you were standing for your marriage come hell or high water. what happened that made you want to walk away?
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 06:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Virtually_Handsome

I don't think I'd give it to her. But show her. Show your kids. Show yourself. Live up to everything you said in that letter, and you will be a better man than you were yesterday.


Exactly! Put the letter in a drawer and pull it out once a month, once or week or whenever you need to remind yourself why you are working so hard to be better person. Pull it out in a year to see how far you have come. This is a historical document not a blueprint.

BTW...you don't make you self stronger by beating yourself up. You are a good person, flawed like everyone else, but a good person.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 06:49 PM
Quote:
I taught you were standing for your marriage come hell or high water. what happened that made you want to walk away?


I am standing for my M. I didn't say I was going off with someone else. I am just not interferring anymore and I have come to realize that there is just so much work to be done on me that the best thing for W to do was leave the situation.

At a later time, if I ever get to the point where I have truly changed myself and proved myself, maybe W will rethink about things down the road. Maybe she won't. But I have not made things better by the things I have thought, said and done. If there is ever a chance for us to get back together down the road, this has to happen.

Kevin
Posted By: ugetvince Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 07:07 PM
Kevin,
Im new to this so I dont know how much my words mean. Its like evrything you said is excatly how I feel. Im only 4 weeks into my wife leaving to go stay with her parents. Is the letter meant to scare her into coming back or is this just something you want to get of your chest?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 07:12 PM
ugetvince,

The letter is meant to acknowledge and validate what she has said. There is nothing manipulative or controllling in it. The only purpose is to say that I agree with her and then move forward with my work on continuing to change me regardless of the outcome.

Kevin
Posted By: GoBison Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 07:16 PM
Quote:


I did a lot of thinking last night and this morning. I'm still in a lot of pain from what I did and said and what my W said and is doing.

But I finally realized that I have a lot of work that I have to do on myself that I cannot just get through faith. I have to make real changes and get help making those changes in who I am as an overall person.

I see this now. Its not enough to just have faith. You have to put work into changing you also. It was a hard realization to come to. I didn't want to admit that I couldn't do it alone. But I can't. I don't have the tools to do it alone.

I am handing my M and W over to God and I am putting my feet forward in getting the help that I need for myself. I know that until I do, nothing will ever change between me and W. It also hurts knowing I am back to square one. But that is the reality of the damage I did this weekend. 11 months if there was even any progress made was just wiped out by me not being smarter and realizing I have issues that have to be worked on.

Today is going to be a hard day as I continue to self analyze things and look in the direction I have to go without my W being by my side.

Kevin



Kevin this is from August. Don't send the letter to your W just do what you are saying and what you have been saying every week for the past several months. Leave her be work on yourself. Let her do what she needs to do on her part to get through this. She doesn't need you to set her free She is already free and on her own. Why would she need you to say ok now you can go? Seems like you are still trying to control her or think that you have control over her.
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 07:18 PM
Don't send the letter. Nothing good will come of it.

If you want to apologize do it with actions not words.
Posted By: JTJ Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 07:26 PM
Kevin,

As an admited Controlling Abusive husband. I would hold onto your letter and work on fixing yourself. Right now you may not be in the best position to do everything you wrote on a consistent bases. Your W will call you on this and it will remind her of all the other times you promised to change and didn't. She may have heard this all before. All you are asking for is her to call you on everytime you revert back to the controlling, manipulative and verbally abusive behavior you've shown her. The letter is like putting a magnifying glass in your wife's hand to see you through. You need time to heal and as she see's you healing only then she will start healing and maybe you will have a chance with her down the road. If not your kids will still have the best dad in the world.

I admire your strength to admit here what you've done to your family and yourself.

How are you getting help to change your past behaviors? You can send me a message if you would like to talk. Good Luck and God Bless.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 07:30 PM
Don't take this the wrong way but that is the most ridiculous letter I've ever read. You're apologizing for the same stuff over and over and over and over again.

Leave her alone. She doesn't want to keep hearing it from you. She wants to be left alone. Period. It continues to make you sound pathetic. And let's face it Kevin, in what way have you changed from a year ago? You say the same things like "I have to change" blah blah blah. Well that was over a year ago and you sound like you're just starting DBing AGAIN.

The problem isn't the fact that she doesn't want the M. It's the fact that deep down inside you are still the same insecure person that came here from day one. You are nice to her one minute, then start blasting her for her OM the next, and then suddenly quoting scripture another.

Stop trying to control the sitch. You'll disagree with me, but read your letter. That's exactly what you're doing AGAIN and she can see that.

There's your 2x4.
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 07:40 PM
I agree with everyone else. Please do not give her the letter.

It is so focused on the past.

Have you read Divorce Busting? The primary message of Solution-Oriented Brief Therapy is to seek solutions for the present and future and not bring up and dwell on the past.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 07:42 PM
I agree. Well put Stuck. Kev this is the same crap that you were saying a year ago. We have all spent countless hours giving you advice which you still agrue against to this day.

Just let go and move on. Continue to become the best Kevin you can be. Stop talking about it and SHOW IT with your ACTIONS NOT WORDS PERIOD.

You still NEED to DEAL with your ADDICTIVE PERSONALITY before any HEALING can begin.

We are all cheering for you.

God Speed.

PMA
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 07:46 PM
She would never read it.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 07:48 PM
I am glad I posted it then. I won't send it then.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 08:39 PM
Just curious why would you give this to her? You seemed to be doing well and this seems like a big backslide...Reading it, if you want input, it comes across as manipulative. If you believe what you wrote I would not give it to her, I think it would push her even farther away. Either that or shorten it up, way up.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 08:43 PM
I guess I really am clueless. It wasn't meant to be manipulative. It seems like I can't say anything without it coming across as manipulative.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 08:52 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I guess I really am clueless. It wasn't meant to be manipulative. It seems like I can't say anything without it coming across as manipulative.

Kevin


You said it! Actually, I don't think it matters what you are saying it will be perceived as manipulative by your W. So the solution is not to say anything.

Even your actions will be seen by her as more of the same. The only counter to that is consistency. That takes time and you have plenty of that. Slow and steady my friend.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 08:59 PM
Show this letter to your C. He will be able to let you see it.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/29/09 09:27 PM
I can do that.

Kevin
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/30/09 12:25 AM
Actually the letter is very good Kevin. I would encourage you to send it. You are correct in most everything that you mentioned. I don't believe it sounds pathetic at all.

Pick up "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. Excellent book to grow not only in your personal relationships, but in your career. One of his principles is "If you are wrong admit it quickly and emphatically." He gives tons of examples of amazing results when people admit they are wrong and take total responsibility.

The key after the letter is to follow through on what you told her. It isn't wrong of you to admit once again that what you have been doing or did in the past is wrong. (because it is wrong)Especially in your case when you HAVE continually and consistently been pressuring and preaching and talking one way and all the whle living another way. She is going by what she sees. Apologize again. Leave her alone and then live the walk.
If you screw up again (and you will because we all do).. Apologize for the specific screwup. Short and to the point and move on again. It only becomes wrong when you are doing it to "get something from her and not sincerely sorry.



I encourage you to change a couple of things though and I will explain why..

Don’t mention words like Christlike or God. The reason is that it could be a turnoff. You have then gotten in God's way and stifled his work. Get out of the way.

Remember. Most people are interested in themselves. It is human nature. Wait for God to open the door to talk to those who are unbelievers or have walked away from God, about God. Be interested in THEM. In their life. In their interests. Don’t talk about yourself. Talk about what THEY are interested in. In due time and in God’s time wait for the Lord to open the door before telling others how important he is in your life. It scares people and gets them defensive when a person comes across too gung ho about God. God doesn’t need our help. He only asks that we be a vessel. Ask yourself and be honest if you come on too strong. He not only can work through you without you mentioning him at every turn, but maybe that is exactly what he is waiting for… Maybe you are standing in the way by talking so much about him that people can’t see HIM….. (get it?)

Doesn’t a picture sometimes say a thousand words without talking to you? Be a picture of God. Let people look and observe the picture. You are the picture. Didn’t you ever have a salesman greet you at the door the moment you walked in and started with his “pitch?”

I know I react with caution, defensiveness and irritation when they do it to me. They have much more success if they just stand back and greet me with a smile and tell me their name and let me know if I need anything or have any questions.. and immediately back off… Same thing applies here.

So.. I would recommend that you eliminate

Quote:
“That was not Christlike on my part and not mature.”



Also eliminate this...
Quote:
“And I will spend the rest of my life making it up to you and the girls in whatever role that is.”


Not necessary and you are making a huge promise that would be hard to live up to. Don’t waste precious words like that. You letter is excellent without it.

And this...
Quote:
“I realize now that I cannot force someone to love me. That has to be earned through great sacrifice and true change in my own self.”


Eliminate… Not necessary. Love is given best when the giver gives freely. Respect is earned. Our kids don’t “earn” our love. It is given freely. WE do however have to earn their respect as well as we do others. You will be earning her respect (which usually preceeds love) when you give her this letter and then do what you promised.


Get rid of this.....
Quote:
I hope to thouroughly change me as a person going forward to someone you and everyone else can respect and feel safe around with time. I will not stop working on me to be who I should have been a long time ago.


Eliminate. Not necessary. You are getting long winded. The letter is best received by just admitting
and taking the blame. You are talking about YOU in that paragraph. She needs to read the letter more as if it is about how you treated and hurt HER.


Quote:
But I will respect anything you ask and wish for. Your boundaries will be respected.


Eliminate “But I will respect anything you ask and wish for.”

Not needed because it is not true. She also needs to always earn your respect. “ANYTHING” is a dangerous word to use in that sentence. I would eliminate it. You can’t possibly “respect ANYTHING” she would ask for or wish for. That isn’t what love is about.

Strike this....
Quote:
I hope that you will forgive me with time. But that is only for you to decide if I have earned it.


Finally this....
Quote:
If you need anything at all, please feel free to ask.


Eliminate. Doesn’t matter whether she forgives you or not. You are again coming across as it being about you. It isn’t. This is about HER. Also leave out the part about her needing anything at all and feeling free to ask… ELIMINATE…

Just end it with this..

Take care.

And finally...Start helping others on here and stop talking about YOU. Begin to help others. Less about talking about you and what is going on in your life and more concern about others that are hurting and are in need of help. The best way to get a friend is to be a friend. Be curious about them and their wants, their needs, their interests, their hurts, their dreams and what makes them tick.. It takes the focus off of me me me.... You will actually find that you will grow even MORE as a person when helping others and focusing on THEM.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/30/09 01:39 AM
Thank you gucci loafer. I will do what you said with the letter and start helping others without talking about me.

I really appreciate it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/30/09 01:46 AM
Also, I will get that book.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/30/09 02:44 AM
Well,

I can't email it to her. I guess I will just have to live it.

K4D: Do you have a second
W: sure. what's up?
W: is this about the children?
K4D: May I have permission to email you something as I have had time to reflect on things you pointed out. I will leave it at that if I may email you
K4D: There won't be anything further after the email
K4D: But I wanted your permission first
W: no. i've stated that i'm no longer willing to listen to anything further. i can't allow any more. you've abused every bit of good will i've had. i stand by what i said. not one more thing.
K4D: Ok
W: goodnight
K4D: Goodnight

I sure would like to be able to say what the letter says as I know she doesn't know what I am trying to say. But I have to respect what she has asked if I don't want a restraining order put on me.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/30/09 03:28 AM
Interesting.

There must have been at least 6 people (including myself) that chimed in saying to not send her the letter. You even agreed after that. Then Gucci, who I usually agree with most the time, has a differing opinion on the letter. And what do you do? You try to send the letter before any of us can try to convince you further why you should not.

I'm perplexed.
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/30/09 03:40 AM
Carnegie's book Friends and People as mentioned by Mr. Loafer is a great book. However, I prefer "How to Stop Worrying and Start Living" by the same other. It had a more direct impact on my life and current situation.

Wish I could say that your wifes response comes as a surprise.
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/30/09 03:42 AM
Originally Posted By: KerryK
Interesting.

I'm perplexed.


I'm not. He wanted to send the letter all he needed was someone, anyone to say go.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/30/09 11:31 AM
She's not ready to accept a letter from Kevin. Even if he did give it to her it would have sat in her purse unread.

Someday Kevin, you will be able to give that to her. But for now you both have to move on. Grow as an individual. Have confidence in yourself. The less you think about her the easier that will be.

Gucci is right. You have so much help to give others on this site by sharing your past and current behaviors with them. You can really help people, men especially, to understand why their wifes have chosen the solution that they have. God bless you.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/30/09 03:22 PM
I guess I just wanted W to see that I really do understand why things are the way they are.

Kevin
Posted By: JTJ Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/30/09 03:49 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I guess I just wanted W to see that I really do understand why things are the way they are.
Kevin


Controlling! If I stood in front of you and stuck my face an inch from yours and kept telling you how much I changed, over and over again. how would you react. Would you ask me to stop after 5 minutes an hour. What would you do if I didn't stop, I couldn't stop. You need to go dark for your wife's sake.

JJ
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/30/09 03:54 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I guess I just wanted W to see that I really do understand why things are the way they are.


Keep chasing that squirrel, you'll catch it eventually...

Seriosuly, stop trying to initiate contact when she doesn't want it. All you're showing her is that you haven't learned a damned thing.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/30/09 03:56 PM
Originally Posted By: TrentC
Keep chasing that squirrel, you'll catch it eventually...


or you will get hit by a car....
Posted By: JTJ Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/30/09 04:01 PM
Kevin,

Here is a good practical exercise for you:

1) go out and buy a big pumpkin and write Kevin's marriage on it.

2)Review all your post and make a slash for everytime your wife has expressed to you that you were being pushy and controlling and any time you can admit that you were controlling and pushy without her telling you. Total all those times.

3) Find a nice big hammer and write kevin on it.

4) Take that total and hit that pupkin hard with that hammer for every time you've done that.

5) Take a picture when your done and hang it in your bath room mirror.

I think what Gucci did yesterday was perfect. Most abusers and controllers need a shock to the system so to speak to get them on the road to recovery. He saw what we all did. You still were not getting it. So he knew and we all knew what your wife would do. By your last statement above you still don't.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/30/09 04:02 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
But I have to respect what she has asked if I don't want a restraining order put on me.
Kevin


Smartest thing Ive heard you say in months. You are damn lucky you dont have one against you already and that you are still able to spend time with your daughters unsupervised.

Seriously Kevin!?! Are you still going to AA meetings at least once a week? If not then yours days are numbered PERIOD.

I pray that you find the strength to face your demons and STAY CONSISTENT!!!

Enjoy Halloween with your girls. Dont mention their mother. IT's all about you and them PERIOD.

PMA
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/30/09 04:43 PM
Quote:
Controlling! If I stood in front of you and stuck my face an inch from yours and kept telling you how much I changed, over and over again. how would you react. Would you ask me to stop after 5 minutes an hour. What would you do if I didn't stop, I couldn't stop. You need to go dark for your wife's sake.


I guess it is. It always seems to end in go dark. I guess that is what is best.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/30/09 07:19 PM

What c-bart said. K4, parts of this letter might have been alright if it weren't the 50th time you have written or promised or said something just like it already...which is usually followed by a temper tantrum you throw when your w doesn't see you differently or feel differently about you, based on a week or two of relatively normal behavior on your end.

She can't change the way she feels about you and the way she sees you (which is clearly your goal in saying/writing these things) b/c the changes are not there. This literally is almost verbatim what you said just weeks ago, and also a few months ago, AND very similar to what you said or wrote several months ago. So by repeating yourself this way is bad news. Instead of reflecting change in you, it reveals you to be in the same position with little forward progress.

Instead of writing/talking about how you "get it now" over and over again, just DO and BE what the letter claims you are now. Demonstrate it. And as Gucci (and countless others) said, re: scriptural references and your frequent quotes, please forgive me... but for the love of GOD, leave those out.

You still have no idea what a turn off it is. To me, they come off as remarkably lacking in self awareness. For instance, stating that you are not judging her, whereas you have called her a whore and God knows you've judged her critically for years now and still do on this site...well, it's not helpful to quote scripture with that record. When it's pointed out that you are doing it again, you merely deny that is what you are doing, and you do it again. It's a pattern that won't change I fear. So Leave those references out in your dealings with your wife, and set an example by your actions alone. No words.
As someone said, if you need friends, be one. Reach out to help someone else and not just here on the boards. I wish you'd Do something NOT related to divorce or marriage, Or the bible. Do something that gets you out meeting new people. Learning something new or fun and no excuses about why you can't do that. No more filler time...GAL. Remember that?
And Last but NOT least...how's the c going? Learn anything?

Still going to AA meetings? You know, the 12 steps include some very important growth tools that are incredibly difficult but SO rewarding and productive. [b]The program relates to your life a great deal. For instance, I think it's the 4th step that is taking a fearless moral inventory of ourselves & then making amends to those we've harmed --it is crucial for several reasons. It's what you say you want to do in your letter. [/b] Geez If you had given that program a real chance, and worked the steps, you'd see how much it overlaps with where you are in your life and how you repeat the same mistakes -- just way too often. If you still don't have a sponsor, get one. Open your mind & heart to what has helped many many great wonderful, successful people. Withold the judgments too. Don't want to hear them.

Not drinking is just part of recovery. There's so much more to recovery b/c it is a way of life. And so much richness in life and reward from working the program. You resisted it almost as much as you resist getting professional help. You are just too stuck. No other way to say it. That's what is so frustrating. All the resources are around you but you won't digest and follow through so that some change can happen that's real. Bottom line is The 12 step program is a spiritual program and way of living that strikes me as so applicable to your life's needs.

For example, If you were to actually follow through with the 12 steps, this letter could have been a past list of "to do" actions for you that you'd have completed in action, already. Alas, instead, it's an email your wife won't even accept, let alone read. That fact alone shows how little your words mean to her now. Therefore, focus solely on your own actions. Set examples without talking about them. And get some good c, and stick with it. Follow through. Follow through. That's a true 180 for you.

j-
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/30/09 10:22 PM
What you just posted on someone else's thread, shows that you don't even read what people write to you here. LIterally you don't or you have zero retention.

You ignore what you don't like in the threads the same way you ignore what your wife tells you she wants. Same way you ignore what we say.

How's your "DB" approach working so far?
j-
Posted By: JTJ Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/31/09 01:17 AM
Kevin,

Thanks for posting a comment on my thread. Cogratulations on your upcoming confirmation. here is a link with some good prayers that have helped me. http://www.sancta.org/huswives.html
I also mentioned The Divine Mercy Devotion and praying the Rosary Dailey. I encourage you to do that. I've been asking God to heal me and heal me wife and as an act of Charity I pray for others who are in a similiar situation to me.

One thing I left out was I try to make a holy hour every week to two weeks I also try to fit in the stations of the cross.

If you do make it to holy hour what really has helped me is that it is the time to let Christ speak to me. Lot of folks go in there to pray (talk) and not to listen. The only thing I say is "Lord I'm yours i trust in your silence." Allow yourself to be united to the source of all peace.

I didn't start all the above until the bomb. But I credit it for changing me. Do it for three months and see what happens. Lord I trust in you!

Good night. Peace to you.

JJ
Posted By: jon2911 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/31/09 02:42 AM
Goodfight, responded on your thread.

How's it going Kevin?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/31/09 08:30 AM
25,

Please explain further out of the goodness of your heart which post you are referring to.

Thank you,

Kevin
Posted By: TulsaTime Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/31/09 10:14 AM
Kev,

Try these books out "As a Man Thinketh" by James Allen. This book will help you focus on you and become a better you. You can read or download it for free on the internet

Also. "I Do Again" by Jeff & Cheryl Scruggs. Lots of hope in that one.

You've gotta be a more confident you and that letter doesn't relect that at all. Do those things you wrote about as everyone is telling you. Don't send the letter.

It's a long road Kevin. You have as much time as you want to wait. Be patient. Take a chance and become a better man, not in a weak, needy, depressed sense, but in a strong, happy confident, fun, loving way. You have to stop worrying about what she's doing and saying. Concentrate on you, your negative, weak and unmasnly thought patterns and think good, beautiful, manly thoughts and see if your circumstances don't improve.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 10/31/09 08:34 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
25,

Please explain further out of the goodness of your heart which post you are referring to.

Thank you,

Kevin

which post? The one just above, & before my last, on this very page. Submitted yesterday at 2:19 pm
j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/01/09 03:14 AM
25,

Nevermind. I found the post on another thread that you were referring to. And yes, I am hearing them.

And I understand that personal growth in your opinion and others is about walking away from the life you had and starting a new one that doesn't include your S who has chosen a new life for themselves without you in it.

Yes, I do get it.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/01/09 03:23 AM
I think you may have missed her point. Personal growth is about you and I being self sufficient and not dependent on our Ws or anyone else to get us through life. Its about us being strong individuals who don't loose themselves in every relationship just because of love.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/01/09 03:37 AM
C-Bart,

I think we both said the same thing with different words.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/01/09 03:44 AM
25,

I am in C. So I don't know why I keep getting told I refuse to go to C when I am actively going and doing the homework assigned.

I am not going to respond to the lenthy detailed posts that have been thrown at me as I honestly don't have it in me to break them down line by line to try and explain myself.

And to answer the question that you love to throw out at me...

How is that DBing method working out for me? Its not.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/01/09 03:49 AM
I also know that I have nothing to offer W compared to the other guys that she is taking up with aka looks and higher salaries. I guess that is why I sought God for help in this. The problem is I relied to much on God and not enough on me. God isn't going to help change my situation until I complete the work in changing me.

Kevin
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/01/09 04:04 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
C-Bart,

I think we both said the same thing with different words.

Kevin


Not quite. Your saying you have to walk away from your wife. I'm saying that you have to walk away from your concept of a relationship. Take charge of yourself and be a strong independent man regardless of your relationship status.
Posted By: C-Bart Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/01/09 04:05 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I also know that I have nothing to offer W compared to the other guys that she is taking up with aka looks and higher salaries. I guess that is why I sought God for help in this. The problem is I relied to much on God and not enough on me. God isn't going to help change my situation until I complete the work in changing me.

Kevin


You got it.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/01/09 04:10 AM
Quote:
Not quite. Your saying you have to walk away from your wife. I'm saying that you have to walk away from your concept of a relationship. Take charge of yourself and be a strong independent man regardless of your relationship status.


That is basically what I meant.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/01/09 05:03 AM
25,

I am also not interested in baiting anyone. That serves no purpose and thwarts any and all help people offer.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/01/09 05:16 AM
So it looks like I have managed to pull together a local group for people here in the Dallas area that are DBing. So far it is me, FaithfulH, IRMAC, SoCo, Fightin4mywife and I am trying to figure out how to get hold of goalie who lives in Richardson and who has only posted one time on this site.

Anyone else that wants to join that is here in the area, please let me know and we will make contact.

This is going to be a great group as we all know it is tough and can be lonely sometimes when you don't have a real people support group.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/01/09 05:17 AM
Also Jon2911 is in. Hopefully this can really help everyone out.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/01/09 11:47 AM
"I also know that I have nothing to offer W compared to the other guys that she is taking up with aka looks and higher salaries. I guess that is why I sought God for help in this. The problem is I relied to much on God and not enough on me. God isn't going to help change my situation until I complete the work in changing me."

Even after all this time, you still don't get it. It's NOT about the money or the looks. If it was, you wouldn't have been married to her in the first place. By this statement, you're looking at changing your looks and money sitch.

Geez you really haven't addressed her other concerns. She never mentioned your looks or money. Most of it is stuff are conclusions that YOU arrived at. Not what she said.

Stop working to get her back and just concentrate on you.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/01/09 07:04 PM
Stuck,

Part of it is the money. She has mentioned the money on more than one occasion. She told me she couldn't see dating someone that only makes what I make.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/01/09 10:05 PM
K4 you said yourself, way back when, that this "new" job was just temporary until you could find something better, (professionally AND financially). SO is there any movement toward you finding better work?
j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/02/09 01:01 AM
25,

There hasn't been much come my way that is better right now. It is still kind of a hard market.

By the way, I am currently reading "The Power Of A Praying Husband". It is good in that it also shows that change must come from within me first. And it teaches you how to pray with an unselfish heart.

I also picked up sheparding a childs heart that was recommended from my C. I am going to start that book next.

I am thinking I need to reread divorce remedy again also.

Kevin
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/02/09 01:05 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
By the way, I am currently reading "The Power Of A Praying Husband". It is good in that it also shows that change must come from within me first.


Interesting. I don't think anyone here has thought about it in those terms before...

Originally Posted By: K4D
And it teaches you how to pray with an unselfish heart.


Good luck with that.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/02/09 02:35 AM
Ya, I know. I suppose I had that one coming. Just trying to read stuff and continue to learn.

I guess I got so caught up in thinking if I pray enough that God will just change her mind at some point and all will be good. Was ridiculous of me. He will speak to her, but it is up to her as to whether or not she will accept anything he says to her.

I will still pray none the less and ask for Gods will be done. I have my kids again this week.

I am mentally working very hard to try and eliminate controlling and manipulative thoughts from my mind in anything I do.

Learning and actions are such a slow process for me in this whole relationship world. I frusturate myself that I don't apply learned knowledge faster and better.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/02/09 02:50 AM
25,

I agree with detachment now. What a fool I was to think that God would just change her mind without me taking charge of me.

I won't be making anymore comments about unconditional love. Detachment doesn't mean you don't still love them, it just means you have accepted the fact that right now you still have a life to live and have to make something of it.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/02/09 05:56 PM
It's not that you are a fool, you simply keep trying to find "things" that will avoid you having to detach as an individual.

Faith and religion are important parts of life but they are for you and you only. It seems it was much easier for you to rely on your religious beliefs to "fix" things rather than just get down to business and detach. And really, the time has come for you to do that.

The only true possessions we have in life are our ACTIONS. Superficial entities such as salaries, aesthetics and monetary possessions do not create our core.

It's important to have goals to better your career or earnings if you are doing it for YOU and the betterment of your life and your children's future. If your road to self betterment completely excludes your W and what she will or won't notice, appreciate or take a second look at THEN and only then are you on your way to rebuilding your core to become the man and individual you want and need to be. Not for her but for YOU and your children.

IMO you are afraid of progress. Anytime you make an inch of progress you become paralyzed with fear and you take many, many steps back. Only you can tackle that fear of progress. Its a barrier that you have to decide you are ready to hurdle over.

You may have your own apartment and your own job and on the surface your life is different but deep down it seems you view this as temporary so you are not going full throttle in moving forward. Personally, I don't think your "new life" is temporary but if it is, you still need to do better for you.

And "doing better" doesn't mean making more money or looking better or wearing fancy clothes or driving an expensive car. No, "doing better" means building up a new core and foundation for YOUR life.

AA, counseling and faith are *very* important parts of this process but they need to be "assistants" to you and not crutches for a fix.

And, FWIW, I did stop posting to you because I found the comment you made about my mom and step dad to be rather offensive. Not that I owe you *any* explanation but my parents were married for 32 years and for those 32 years my father refused to get help for his depression and drinking problems. My mother want to marriage counseling alone for TWENTY years as my father refused to go. Eventually things were so bad my mom's health became very poor due to stress. My mom did not "bomb drop" when she left my dad and stayed around for an additional two years hoping he would get on board to at least get help for himself.

My mom was alone, by choice, for TWELVE years before she remarried. In those twelve years she enjoyed her life. She made tons of friends, she traveled, started a new business and continued her dedication to the church and volunteering. During that twelve year span she had one "boyfriend" but it was more of a companionship type R and to this day they are still friends.

My stepfather is an amazing man but I don't need to convince you of that because I *know* he is amazing. Your judgements though without knowing anything about anything go from annoying to personally offensive.

I think once you get to know and change YOUR core you wont be so quick to judge others. That should be your goal.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/02/09 06:09 PM
CG,

I shouldn't have said anything about your step father. However, on that particular day, I was very discouraged about another man in my W's life as well as the possibility of being in my children's lives. Especially someone that would step in WHILE we are married. I let my own personal angry feelings about my unwanted possible situation bleed into everyone else's situation.

I am sure that your step father is a great individual. It sounds like he really is from everything you said about him. Whether or not I agree with the concept of remarriage, does not mean that someone who does is a bad person. For that I apologize.

I can admit that I like my W's stepdad very much and always have. He is a very generous and caring person. He does anything he can to help those who need help. I may not agree with his choice of remarriage, but as a person goes, he is really a great person.

Thanks for posting to me.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/02/09 06:38 PM
If you were detached the idea of another man in your W's life would not be such a burden to you. You would accept she is on her own journey to find happiness and you would accept that even though you don't agree on the way she went about finding happiness it will all be fine for YOU.

What you said above speaks volumes about the control you so desperately seem to want and need. You cannot control what your W does w/other men. If you do divorce you cannot control who your W brings into your children's lives or if she remarries.

If your W does decide to bring a man into the lives of your kids then what your children will need is your support as it will be a transition. You can't offer that support if you are not detached and remain staunch in your judgements about what your W is doing and how "wrong" it is. You *will* have to find a balance.

And you spend an awful lot of time speculating. Your W has a new BF... so what? What indication do you have that this man has *any* interest or desire in being a step dad? You have none. You have to learn to separate your thoughts of your W as a woman and a mom. As a woman she is moving forward as she sees fit. That doesn't mean she can't be a good mom too. You seem to think because she *is* moving forward with her life as a woman it makes her a bad mom. It doesn't.

If you love your W like you say you do then you also have to trust that she will make the right choices for your girls when it comes to another man. And if you can do that, then you will know you are detached.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/02/09 07:22 PM
Thanks CG,

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/04/09 07:40 PM
So W wants me to come over for dinner Sunday night and discuss changing the schedule around for when we exchange the kids. We normally do it on Sunday nights, but she wants to start doing it on Friday nights. I said I am willing to discuss.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/04/09 07:55 PM
Just make sure you only discuss issues that are kid related. Please.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/04/09 07:59 PM
Agreed. Do not read into this. Validate and show respect PERIOD. If she says something that upsets you that you dont agree with. Show restraint by saying "I will think about it and get back to you."
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/04/09 08:22 PM
LAST MINUTE PLANS Kevin.

"I am so sorry but I cant make it to dinner, something just came up. Mind if I pick up the girls an hour or two later than usual. We can talk about switching up the schedule tomorrow." Then show up dressed to kill. and smiling your ass off.

YOU ARE NOT READY! You only decide to "walk away" a week ago. This is your first test to see how true a walk-away-spouse you really are. You ever play video games? This is like the very first level that teaches you how to fire your weapons and crawl under barbwire and walk around. Pass this level and you get to do some real damage to the divorce fantasy. But you got to pass this level first.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/04/09 08:30 PM
KerryK, That is all I am going to discuss.

PMA_BABY, I am not reading anything into this at all. It is simply about changing the schedule up. There is nothing to read into it about.

Steve McQueen, I hadn't thought about that. I will give it some more thought.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/04/09 08:47 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
PMA_BABY, I am not reading anything into this at all. It is simply about changing the schedule up. There is nothing to read into it about.
Kevin


Kev. Who r u kidding? Remember we have been reading your posts for a year. You think dinner? Maybe there's a chance. I'm just trying to get you to DROP all EXPECTATIONS and focus on DETACHMENT. Better yet cancel like McQueen suggested. Try a 180. Create some mystery.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/04/09 08:53 PM
PMA,

I know that I have made many mistakes in the past year and have wanted to believe things that were not true. But I would truly be a fool to believe there is anything at all here to read into. This is about W wanting to change the kids schedule to further accomodate her social life.

I actually don't know why it requires dinner to talk about it. Oddly she is making one of my favorite dishes as well.

I think this is just to try and butter me up to get me to agree to her new plans that benefit her and nothing more.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/04/09 08:57 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I think this is just to try and butter me up to get me to agree to her new plans that benefit her and nothing more.
Kevin


Wise man. wink
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/04/09 08:58 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Steve McQueen, I hadn't thought about that. I will give it some more thought.


NO THINKING. You are walking around in a "fog" now. LOL.
You DO and ACT on what makes Kevin feel right. Why? Because. Wife you argue way too much. You are distant. You don't meet my needs, physically, emotionally, damn you arent even cooking what I want to eat for sunday dinner. I need my space.

You ever see Urban Cowboy? Bud gets Sissy back in the end.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/04/09 11:09 PM
I would not go either. You jumped at the first invitiation she offered. The children's exchange schedule can easily be discussed via the phone, a meal isnt necessary OR in your best interst at this time. And I think it sends mixed messages to your kids.

You should have declined, said you had plans and found a mutually agreeable time to have a phone meeting. And really, dont be too quick to bend to her "plan" about changing the schedule. If it doesnt work for you then let her know.

I would call and cancel and tell her that something came up last minute and you wont be able to make dinner and then set up a phone meeting.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/04/09 11:41 PM
I think she wants to have dinner because I haven't bent on the schedule. She has already thrown out a couple changes she wanted and I would not agree to them. I think this is to try and get me in to agree with her on this day.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/04/09 11:44 PM
W suggested other times and dates. I agreed to change to Sunday after church since sunday night was interferring with her social life. She didn't like that and wanted to do it during the week. I said no. She then wanted Saturday morning. I said no. She then said Friday night, I said we can discuss it.

Then she asked me to come over for dinner to discuss it.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/04/09 11:56 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I think she wants to have dinner because I haven't bent on the schedule. She has already thrown out a couple changes she wanted and I would not agree to them. I think this is to try and get me in to agree with her on this day.

Kevin


you that easy?
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/05/09 02:57 PM
Kevin,
I'm very proud of you for not sending the letter and for changing the day your W wanted you to come over. She knows how you feel about her and so does God. So with the changes that you are saying that you are making and will make it will then show your W that you are a new person. You have helped me out so much with turning to God and that is what you need to do. Leave it in God's hands and do your best to become a better person (H) to your wife. She is the one committing sin right now, not you. On one of the CD's from rejoice ministries and in a book it said that Charlyne didn't pursue Bob at all and that is what you need to do. If your W didn't know how you felt then I could see sending a letter because a lot of prodigals don't know they can come home but your W does know that already.

Just keep on changing for God and for yourself and I believe it will work out. I know how you feel, because everything my H does or says I over analyze we both need to detach for a while and wait for changes and make changes and also wait for God's perfect timing.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/06/09 04:35 AM
Thanks all,

Today was a very long day. I didn't leave work til 8pm. This is my week with the kids so W kept them for me until I got to her place to pick them up. We got home a little after 9 and D7 went straight to bed and fell asleep. She was tired. D11 did a few things and then went on to bed. I wish I would have gotten to spend some more time with them. But some days it just doesn't work out.

Tomorrow night I was told we should expect to work late as well. But at least it is Friday and the kids will be up later.

My 2 bosses have been in town this week and we have been putting in some late hours. The OT helps so I can't complain.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/08/09 09:46 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
25,

I agree with detachment now. What a fool I was to think that God would just change her mind without me taking charge of me.

To me, this means You still don't get it, no matter how often you regurgitate what you think we've said a 100 times. Hear me out before you tune me out.

Be brave! Face that fact that the mother of your children has God Given free will & may not come back...sooo what do you do?
You be the best man & father you can be. You may not be her husband b/c she may not choose you to be, and thus far she has not.

But You seem to believe that anyone of great enough faith who prays hard, is sincere, and does the hard work of deeply changing themselves within, and truly deserves good and fair things in life...ALWAYS gets those good things... Well, They don't. My brother in law died last year of a brain tumor @the age of 42, and it wasn't for lack of faith or any weakness or sin of his. He had many greatnesses in him and one of them was his stoicism. I NEVER ONCE heard that man complain about life being unfair to him. NOT ONCE!! In a culture of victimhood, that really stands out. So Try Reading "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" b/c THAT Is a test of faith. I know You tell us of books you read that comfort you but I fear they also enable you to stay in the same thought pattern, that you think some person or book will have the "magic key" to make things go your way...but you don't read the books that prepare you for other options in life, such as surviving a tragedy b/c you just keep insisting it isn't happening (I'm NOT talking about theology now either, please)....

Having life throw lots of nasty curve balls your way, but still carrying on, still feeling gratitude for what you have, is admirable. I saw a lot of this while in the military and on the posts I visited this past week. I saw families with dead youths, maimed fathers, or mothers, families with both parents deployed so that an aunt has to come and get the kids and they pray that both parents will return...
Many people who "deserved" to get good things did not, and many good people who did not "deserve" a young death, got one anyhow. Yet most still carried on and believed, and are still grateful and still finding joy in life...[b]That's a faith that inspires, and it's a strength that endures.

I'm troubled by what I see in your "theology" which is really a bargaining angle you have...e.g., "If I'm really good, or change into being who I'm supposed to be(which I am going to do sometime in the future...) THEN God will 'make her' feel love for me & bring her back...in His 'perfect timing' --so I just have to be patient..."

Kevin, that is what you were saying. Maybe you don't mean that anymore. Maybe you woke up and saw the light and really "get it" now. I hope so but your words betray you at times. And theres such a pattern to it with you. You do the religious preachy stuff, you do the deny it's happening thing, you worry about small interactions with her, you stress about them, you often backslide in them, you get angry and frustrated, and then you go back to a biblical quote...as if it'll change what just happened again. Sure, "all things are possible with God..." I get it.

But I just don't see why you keep on with this behavioral cycle and it IS a cycle. Is it so much easier to cling to this belief system rather than the alternative??--The alternative-- which is accepting that bad things DO happen to good people, and in the real world, there is unjust suffering, which we don't fully understand, and in the real world, sometimes people walk out of their marriages for good reasons, for bad reasons, or for no reasons... ([b]And 12 step programs discuss how to handle this too!)
You know, we "hammer" the AA stuff it into you for a reason. We know what we're talking about...sometimes I wish you'd just trust and just do... And worse things happen to good people all the time. A WAS sucks...but good God, look around the world and see the suffering down the road from you!

In 12 step programs, We learn to face life on its' terms, not ours. We take what comes and make the best of it. We don't keep nagging God, or pleading to go back in time to what we THOUGHT we once had with our spouses, and hoping that God makes them feel....'love/need for us"

Instead, we say the Serenity prayer and we do our best to LIVE IT. It's most definitely a spiritual road of growth Kevin, but it DOES sometimes mean accepting things we cannot change and MOVING on, not staying stuck on that spot in the road forever, or for a decade, etc... I'm curious...when you pray for your wife's heart to soften, or for her to return, do you Ever pray for God to help you feel less dependent/needy on your w? Or less frightened of life without her? Not praying for change in her, but in you only? Perhaps you can ask your priest for his opinion on that.

Last but not least, Kevin, if she uses her free will and chooses to finalize the divorce, and someday to be with other men, and to marry one of them...IF God doesn't "make her" come back to you, What kind of life will you create for yourself and your daughters? WE KNOW you say you are in a covenant Marriage, it changes nothing, etc etc, but it does change things for your kids and your wife and in all likelihood for you...So what will you DO for your daughter's happiness if not your own? And What harm is there in spending some energy on visualizing a life without your wife, that includes happiness and joyfor you and your d's?

Can you see the value of that in your d's lives, so they don't constantly fear you'll "lose your sh#@ again" if things don't turn around for your m? The value in them knowing that no matter what, they will be okay -- b/c you will be okay? I suggest this to ALL LBSers with children. "Hope all you want, but be ready to carry on no matter what" and GAL -- b/c you simply have to GAL. Rather sleep walk to death?

Don't make the girls carry the burden of their dad's mental/emotional health on their young shoulders...(Trust me, they have been shouldering so much on their hearts and you cannot put all the blame on their mother for this.) You have played a huge role in this but I don't want to hammer on that now.

Just saying they need to know you'll be fine no matter what. If you cannot imagine this or even go there, then yes, I think you demonstrate the level of growth you have yet to achieve and you have to get the help/tools for is asap. You're setting yourself up. Basically saying you'll give up and throw in the towel on life, (or refuse to even think it's happening) if this ONE THING doesn't ultimately go your way even though you know your wife doesn't "have" to do what you or God wants her to do...it's the "catch 22 challenge" we face as Christians, having our faith in God's will, and yet also knowing we and others, have free will to ignore Him as well. And to know that those we love may turn their backs on us and Him, b/c they can...

[color:#000099]But No one gets to blame another person for their own permanent sorrow. No one.
Get out of the funk for real, GARL, means Get A REAL Life so there are no more "Filler" activities but things that involve you with other people and don't remind you of sad triggers or keep you stuck in the same frame of mind. Be a friend to others. You'll have more friends...be the best dad you can be and if that means being the best single dad in the world, so be it... (Serenity Prayer Time!)

I've been on military bases discussing the stress on military families this past week (helps one keep perspective if you get yourself out of the pity funk) and I know too many people who don't feel sorry for themselves but sure could, to see someone in your comparatively fortunate situation wallow. VERY FEW [b] of these men/women said "God let them down b/c they prayed so hard for their husbands /sons/ daughters/sisters/brothers to come back safe and sound or at least alive...but God let them die..." very few felt entitled to a guarantee on their prayers.
Most I met with, "get that they don't always get what they want or pray for", yet they carry on and still believe life is essentially good. [/b]

Be braver, Kevin. Face the scary possibilities even if only for a little while, so that you know no matter what your wife chooses, God has a good plan for you right around the corner. Have faith in THAT. Not "your" Plan, but His,...(and life's curve balls, b/c we have to allow for free will). Detachment helps you with that, as do 12 step programs if you actually Do the programs...

J-
[/color]
I won't be making anymore comments about unconditional love. Detachment doesn't mean you don't still love them, it just means you have accepted the fact that right now you still have a life to live and have to make something of it.

Kevin


Well, yeah. Hmm, I think I heard that before, but where? Where??
Oh wait, now I remember...I heard it HERE, over a hundred times!!. (Wow, I Bet that's literally true...) so now...do you "get it"? Hope so.
Good luck!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/08/09 04:29 PM
I understand 25. Life isn't always what you hope it will be. It is just what it is. Thanks for posting to me.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/08/09 09:37 PM
Ok, W called and wanted me to call her about discussing dinner plans tonight. I sent her back a text saying I have to cancel tonight. I will drop off the kids at 6. Send me your proposed schedule and holiday plans via email.

She sent me a text back saying she wished I would have told her sooner.

I sent back a text saying sorry, just came up.

I am going to get dressed up looking good, drop the kids off, act confident and happy and split out of there. I really don't have any plans tonight. But I am taking Steve McQueens advice on this to try and build some mystery and show W I am not reliant or dependent on her.

I do have some friends that are going dancing tonight. Maybe I will join them.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/08/09 09:53 PM
you're blackberry have a text messageing reminder option? thing that sends you a text message to yourself?

set it to go off a COUPLE times shortly after you walk in the door. do it. so you can say i really gotta run. before she backs you into a corner with talk.

then go see Revenge of the Fallen smile
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/08/09 10:10 PM
I don't have that option on my blackberry. But I can have a friend send me some texts while there. If that option is on my blackberry, I don't know how to set it.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/08/09 10:59 PM
I think you are making a very wise move. DO NOT engage in any sort of talk with her other than what you *have* to say to be polite and then get the hell out of there.

Once she does send you the schedule over e-mail I would acknowledge to her that you received the proposal but you will need some time to review not only her proposal but your personal schedule and you will get back to her in a few days.

IMO, if she tries to set up another dinner to talk about the schedule I would decline, be firm about your desire to have it sent via e-mail and if she asks why or questions you about it simply say you feel its best to have a paper trail when discussing custody issues. Then smile, tell her to have a GREAT night, kiss your girls goodbye and be on your way.

I can almost promise you the term "custody issues" will plant something in her mind that perhaps you are now treating her as an ex-wife and co-parent only and at the very least, will give her the first taste she has ever had of NOT being in control of everything. Or, maybe you should use the term "custody arrangements" as issues imply a problem. Yes, that would be better verbiage I think.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/08/09 11:09 PM
Thanks CG,

I will do just that. It is time for her to realize this isn't a game anymore and I am not going to be suckered and just cave to whatever she wants for her own controlling purposes.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/08/09 11:11 PM
CG, smart advice.

Kevin. dont give her time. in and out. have your buddy text or call then get the hell out of there. You are in a hurry you got to meet A FRIEND. you dont want ot talk about it. make it mysterious.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/08/09 11:12 PM
Will do SM,

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/08/09 11:13 PM
its always a game kevin.

just now you have to take control of how its played and the rules.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/08/09 11:15 PM
Agreed. What I meant is I am not going to be suckered into her world anymore.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/08/09 11:28 PM
This is very good, Kevin. If you can do this just as we outlined it will be the first HUGE step you have made in standing up to your W in a kind but firm way.

I would also suggest before you respond to her proposed custody arrangement you post here first. We are not emotionally invested and we may be able to point out things we see and help you formulate the most productive response.

Seeing the winter holidays are right around the corner be prepared for her request to adjust the holiday schedule. Holidays can be an emotional time for a separated/divorced couple that have young children so be SURE not to react on emotion. You will react with a strong and firm backbone wrapped in kindness but in the end you will clearly let her know that holidays, if not spent as a family, will have equality for both co-parents. Since there is strife with both of your extended families and you mentioned your children are pushing for more family time (which IMO sends them very mixed messages) you will need to tread carefully but firmly. I might even suggest you speak to your counselor and the person that counsels your children about holidays and co-parenting before you solidify anything with your W.

Yes, I am doing a bit of speculating but your W is pretty transparent with her timing and her requests.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 04:15 PM
Good news and bad news last night.

Here is the good news. I showed up to W's looking awesome. I was in and out, gave the girls kisses goodbye. W looked totally confused by me being dressed up and not paying any attention to her and being quickly out.

Bad News. I am so ashamed to admit what happened last night. And Stuck, I don't need the "You are a hypocrite" speech.

It was bad. I totally fell for this lady last night. She was so beautiful and intelligent and charming. I can't believe I am even admitting this. But I have to. We totally hit it off. I was totally taken in by her. I didn't even think about my W last night. I can't believe it even happened. I didn't sleep with her, so that is good. But WOW. What an amazing lady.

I know it is wrong and not what God set up. I am so struggling with it this morning. I don't even know what to think. I was totally captivated by her last night. It goes against everything I have said and stood against. I should not have fallen for her. But I could not help myself. She just totally drew me in.

I have no idea what to do now. I do know what to do, but I am now struggling emotionally. I can't believe this happened. She is totally awesome.

UGG....

Kevin
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 04:30 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I didn't sleep with her, so that is good.


So what did happen, that you feel you needed to qualify this?

Originally Posted By: K4d
I have no idea what to do now. I do know what to do, but I am now struggling emotionally. I can't believe this happened. She is totally awesome.


You're being extremely unfair to your new lady friend by developing an emotional relationship with her while you are struggling to save your marriage. Unless you are planning to drop your own bomb and walk away.

I would also be wary about getting involved with anyone new, coming straight out of a bad relationship. Rebound relationships almost never work out.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 04:32 PM
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH INTERACTING WITH MEMBERS OF THE OPPOSITE SEX!

That is all you did last night, correct, Interact with someone. What is there to be ashamed about. There is a value, esteem and confidence in knowing that you can affect someone in a postive way through your interactions.
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 04:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH INTERACTING WITH MEMBERS OF THE OPPOSITE SEX!

That is all you did last night, correct, Interact with someone. What is there to be ashamed about. There is a value, esteem and confidence in knowing that you can affect someone in a postive way through your interactions.


Maybe I read too much into it, but it sounds like Kevin is saying more went on then simple "interaction".
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 04:37 PM
This can be a good learning experience for you. For months and months you bashed your W up and down for feeling the "high" of a new person. And now that you have experienced it yourself maybe you can better see where your W was at and where she continues to be.

It is *very* easy to get swept up in the "magic" of it all. Somebody to pay attention to you, somebody to tell you that you are smart and charming and funny and attractive. Somebody to talk to in a "non DB'ing" fashion. Now can you see why your W was so drawn in to other men? Now that you have experienced this yourself have you gained any perspective on the situation as a whole?

I do agree w/Trent. Either be done with your M and file or not be done and keep trying to DB. But don't involve a third party because (A) it will only hurt one more person and (B) your W will feel things are "even" now between you and her since you BOTH have engaged outside the bounds of marriage.

Tell us what you learned from your experience last night. Have you gained any new perspective on where your W was coming from? Have you gained any new perspective on yourself and your situation?
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 04:39 PM
Rebound relationships almost never work out.

nope. and usually neither does the second, and the third, who knows, might be the one, might be a dud, or she could be Baby from that Rob Zombie movie.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 04:41 PM
Originally Posted By: TrentC
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH INTERACTING WITH MEMBERS OF THE OPPOSITE SEX!

That is all you did last night, correct, Interact with someone. What is there to be ashamed about. There is a value, esteem and confidence in knowing that you can affect someone in a postive way through your interactions.


Maybe I read too much into it, but it sounds like Kevin is saying more went on then simple "interaction".


Kevin got a open mouth kiss?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 04:41 PM
Nothing more went on than simple interaction. But it emotionally drew me in as we really hit it off. She wants to go out with me again this week.

I know I shouldn't as I don't know how strong I can be against her. I will admit that I am human. I only posted it because I am trying to be honest in light of the hardcore stance I have been taking.

We were out til 3am together. I am a little tired this morning because of it.

I guess I am just feeling guilty as a stander now for allowing myself to be drawn into her.

Kevin
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 04:50 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Nothing more went on than simple interaction. But it emotionally drew me in as we really hit it off. She wants to go out with me again this week.


Does she know about your situation? How does she feel about getting involved with a married man?

Originally Posted By: K4D
I know I shouldn't as I don't know how strong I can be against her. I will admit that I am human. I only posted it because I am trying to be honest in light of the hardcore stance I have been taking.


You've been handling this the way you've wanted to for as long as I've been following this. No reason you should stop now.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 04:51 PM
Quote:
Tell us what you learned from your experience last night. Have you gained any new perspective on where your W was coming from? Have you gained any new perspective on yourself and your situation?


CG,

I don't condone what happened last night. Like I said, I am ashamed to even admit it. But I am being honest. I will say this, if me and W had not been the way we have been for the past year, I would never have been drawn into this as I was always 100% faithful to her and made sure I never allowed myself to be put in a situation where this could happen.

That being said, yes, I do see the high of another person that just totally draws you into them. But also like I said, I am struggling with it today because I know it is wrong. Ultimately it will not work out because I can't drop my W for someone else. But it was a real high last night. It is a moral issue for me that I am struggling with. I really liked her. But I know that this is not something I can pursue. At the same time, I know that if I continue to go out with her, she will just draw me in closer and I know my guards will drop around her and that is not something I want to happen.

Like I said, I am struggling emotionally because of this.

In some ways, I can understand what my W felt as our R was not where it should have been for her. In other ways, I still don't condone it because I know this would never have happened if we were together.

It is a tough struggle right now.

SM, no I did not open mouth kiss her.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 04:54 PM
TrentC,

While I wasn't looking to get 2x4'd here. I will admit that it is something I should be getting for allowing myself to be drawn in by her.

She knows that I am separated and that things right now are about as bad as they can be between me and my W. She is also D'd and can understand the situation.

Ugg.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 04:57 PM
I am not looking to get beat up for this. But on the other hand, I know I have it coming.

It totally contradicts everything I have been standing for and everything I have said. I am really torn up today about it.

I think I am just looking for perspective more than anything on what happened.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 04:59 PM
Positives, I guess if you want to look at it this way. It totally took my mind off of my W and yes, I felt different than I have in a long time. I felt confident and I felt like I have something to offer and I felt like I still am worthwhile to someone.

Negatives, it was wrong.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 05:05 PM
I should not have allowed myself to get caught up emotionally in her. But she was so awesome and I have just felt alone for so long that I guess I just let my guard drop.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 05:09 PM
She blew off other guys that were hitting on her last night to keep being with me. I really didn't even pursue her. Infact I even got kind of cocky with her and that just seemed to draw her in more to me. I didn't brag about myself like the other guys were. The other guys really turned her off. She was really looking to be with someone genuine and I guess with me not pursuing her, it just made her more interested in me.

Kevin
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 05:10 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
It totally contradicts everything I have been standing for and everything I have said. I am really torn up today about it.


You shouldn't be; it is a simple choice.

If you want to keep standing for your marriage, tell this woman that you can't be more than friends with her right now.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 05:17 PM
TrentC,

I do want to keep standing for my M. And I need to tell her I can't be anything more than friends.

I guess I just grew weak. She was so captivating. I am just really struggling because I am tired of being alone and she was like a new breath of fresh air. She made me feel alive again. That is hard to just turn off even though I know it is wrong and it totally contradicts my stand. It is like I don't want it, but I do. This is a real struggle in me.

Kevin
Posted By: GoBison Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 05:23 PM
So you talked to a woman at the bar. It made you feel good about yourself. Something distracted you from what is going on for one night. I really don't see it as a big deal. You weren't talking about having kids and getting married you just simply talked about everyday things.

Let her know that you aren't interested in a relationship and leave it at that. Don't allow yourself to be alone with her again. Don't make it out for more than it is.

It will almost be like you are DBing her and she may come after you more.
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 05:29 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I guess I just grew weak. She was so captivating. I am just really struggling because I am tired of being alone and she was like a new breath of fresh air. She made me feel alive again. That is hard to just turn off even though I know it is wrong and it totally contradicts my stand. It is like I don't want it, but I do. This is a real struggle in me.


You know that life (or Satan, if you prefer) is going to throw temptation into your path, to make you question your path. He knows that you are weak and lonely.

So make your choice.
Posted By: Deep Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 05:33 PM
Umm, so you just got to know this woman at the bar?

How long did you figure it took this life-changing, impactful "emotional connection" to be established Kevin? WAS at least take some time to get to know people generally before plunging into EAs or more.

Gotta be frank - seems to be you went LOOKING for something, probably in view of what had been a stressful sitch, and nobody's saying it was easy on you. I honestly don't think you're as "sorry" as you profess, part of you enjoyed reporting this.

GoBison is right. You had some ego boosting contact at a bar. So let it go. That's gotat be all there is to it.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 05:39 PM
Kevin. Go on that social interaction. Talk, laugh, eat supper, get to know someone other then the memory of who your wife used to be, keep it in your pants.

Keep Db'ing. Advanced DB'ing. Become the master of the quick kid exchange. Quickly out the door with nothing more to say, than hello, goodbye, oh and d8 has h1n1. A couple more times of seing you all dressed up to go out. Finding out that you are talking with someone on the phone. Oh and that Kevin smile that she has seen in a long long time. And she is going to be wondering what is up with you. Give her the impression you are moving on down the road. In time when you are more confident in yourself and cocky, get flirty, and watch her trip over her own feet.

Think of it this way. If she really wanted out, kids or no kids, she would already be gone, D-I-V-O-R-C-E-D. But she is not; she hasn't; she let the damn thing lapse. Now you have the opportunity to give her a challenge. Try to Win Kevin back. She has challenged you for a year now. But you did'nt play the game right.

The quickest way to get her to turn her head your way is to give her the impression that she just got dumped. Nobody likes to get dumped, even those that have 1 or 2 on the side. Broken heart. Know the feeling? Do what WORKS.

And before anyone else chimes in that you are playing with someones elses emotions to win your wife back. Realize, just because you were in a 10 year relationship doesnt mean the person you meet is going to feel the same loving feeling your spouse felt for you for 10 years. Dating one person a couple times rarely leads to a golden anniversary, lucky if you get another date sometimes. You never know what they want, sex, free food, maybe they are using you to make someone else jealous. Happens all the time. This is life people play mind games all the time. You go out have fun expect nothing.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 05:40 PM
I will admit that I sat down beside her and talked to her. But I didn't expect it to go as long as it did and as well as it did. I had some worry that if I posted it, it would be viewed as bragging. But I am not bragging about it. I am struggling with it. Maybe I should not have posted it. But I guess I just don't know what to think today as she is really on my mind.

As I started ignoring her, she just drew closer to me. Like I said, I even got a bit cocky with her for a few and that just drew her more into me.

I just feel extremely guilty for putting myself in that situation. But at the same time, I just am feeling like I really liked it.

I am only posting to try and get real perspective here and I feel like I am getting it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 05:44 PM
Thanks SM,

It will be an interesting change towards my W. And you are right in everything you said. Sorry to hear your D8 has H1N1. I hope she gets better soon. That is always tough on kids.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 05:48 PM
Oops, sorry SM,

I guess you meant D8 as an example. lol. Yup. I agree. It will be a completely different game now.

Kevin
Posted By: Deep Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 05:49 PM
I'm not knocking you for what happened per se. Actually, I am generally for the Gucci/Robx/Steve "method" - it's a viable and realistic part of the toolbox to GAL and make a point to the WAS at times.

What I'm saying Kevin, is listen to yourself. A deep emotional connection you say? In that couple of hours? Then you factor in the stress (some self-induced) you are under and you do the math.

You feel guilty and liked it? Which parts do you like best? It's not simply enjoying a good old evening out and getting some attention then?
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 05:50 PM
Ok Kev, you asked me to respond and I have to say you won't expect my response.

YOU HAVE NOTHING TO BE ASHAMED OF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, I am yelling. Stop being ashamed, right now. You weren't a hypocrite, you were HUMAN. We get so d*mn into DB'ing that we forget sometimes that we ARE human beings.

I'm going to tell you something. I had a friend that I met on match.com. I asked him to have coffee with me. His w had left him and he was looking for friendship only, as was I. We went fishing, out to dinner, pizza, etc. I made it clear that he was a friend.

Now don't pass out........ I DID open mouth kiss him. It felt good. It let me know the parts that have been ummmmm, neglected, still worked. Nothing more than kissing ever happened, and we stopped hanging out in May. It was just enough interaction for us to both know that we COULD care about someone else. Neither of us felt a need to go any farther. AND it helped me solidify in my mind that I really did want to keep DB'ing and work on me.

You were "taken in" because you have been totally beaten up by all of the stuff your W said, did, your own actions, your feelings, YOU BEING HUMAN. You felt like a normal human being without the flaws that you are working on and having shoved in your face.

Be straight with this woman, tell her how you felt last night, and your reaction this morning. You have grown enough to be able to confront these difficult feelings and deal with them directly.

This is part of your growing, Kevin. You did nothing wrong. But it sure did feel good - didn't it. You can understand that you have something to offer. I don't care what anyone else thinks, you don't have anything to be guilty of right now.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 05:52 PM
I guess I just liked feeling like someone finds a real interest in me. It didn't hurt that she was extremely beautiful and intelligen and charming and that she wanted to go out with me again this week.

I don't know Deep. It has just been so long since I even felt like this that I guess it made me feel rejubinated again. Yes it was a couple of hours. But it was just great. And she obviously felt like something was there to want to go out with me again. Like I said, I am such a hardcore stander and this just made me feel like I totally gave up and it felt good for a while but wrong that I am just perplexed that I would even let myself feel this way in light of being against this very thing.

I don't know. I guess I am just confused emotionally today.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 05:53 PM
no, thats something WITTY to throw at your wife so she doesnt think you are being mean. Dont be mean. Be elusive and mysterious. Be cool.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 05:55 PM
Thanks Wifey,

That does make me feel better. And I do want to keep DBing. And yes it did make me feel like I have something to offer now. I think I can use it to help myself DB better because of it. It did bring me confidence.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 05:57 PM
Oh, and as far as the Gucci method, its ok - but I didn't do what I did to play head games or for a particular result. I'm no phony. That's the only part I don't like in that method, do x to get y reaction.

I did it because I needed to know I was still "marketable" in the words of my friend, because I thought he was cute, and because I wanted to see someone look at me as more than a sister. I'm human, too!
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 05:57 PM
Kevin -

Was this girl a Cowboys fan?
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 05:59 PM
Good point, KerryK! That would be important to know.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 06:01 PM
lol, she did watch some of the game. But I don't think she was a hardcore football fan.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 06:16 PM
I agree with everyone else that there was nothing wrong with a little female interaction. The question is are you seeing it more like a friendship or are you getting "intoxicated" because it's another drug to substitute your W? You've shown in the past that you've substituted one form of addiction for another. I can see this as being the same. That's why you're falling so deeply for this person.

For God's sake it was only one night. If you felt totally intoxicated with this person, then you've got a bigger issue. It's not a grown up R. For all you know, she felt lonely too and latched onto you because of that.

So the question is...did you make plans with her to see her again?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 06:22 PM
Stuck,

Yes I did make plans to see her again. But I will keep it in my pants. It was just fun being with her. I had real fun for a change.

Kevin
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 06:23 PM
Originally Posted By: stuck808
The question is are you seeing it more like a friendship or are you getting "intoxicated" because it's another drug to substitute your W? You've shown in the past that you've substituted one form of addiction for another. I can see this as being the same. That's why you're falling so deeply for this person.


This is kinda what I was trying to get at.

He feels guilty because he's made a big deal about "standing" for his marriage and he's "struggling" because he sees an opportunity for a quick fix for himself.

It you're standing for your marriage, the answer is clear. Enjoy her company, but make it clear that you can't offer her any more than friendship.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 06:27 PM
TrentC,

I agree.

Kevin
Posted By: breakaway Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 06:56 PM
How much of you was intoxicated by her, and how much was intoxicated from being in a bar?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 07:02 PM
breakaway, I went to the sports bar to watch the game so I wasn't sitting at home alone watching it. I sat down next to her because truly she was stunning. I actually didn't expect her to take any interest in me. But she took a real interest in me.

It wasn't that I was at the sports bar that was intoxicating. It was that we just clicked so well and she really liked me and kept blowing off other guys so that she could focus on me. I guess it just seemed like she was really interested in me and we actually hung out for about 6 hours. Then that she wanted to go out with me this week just further made me feel like she was really interested in me. I think it was somewhat intoxicating because she is a real knockout and she is intelligent and fun.

I just felt alive with her after a while. She was a little bit physical, but not an open mouth kiss or sleeping with her.

I don't know. She was just something else.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 07:07 PM
Ok, so now yall know. I am also human. I let myself get caught up in the moment and totally enjoyed it. I didn't think I was human for so long. But I guess I am.

It was interesting not thinking about my W last night. I just felt alive and good about myself. I really enjoyed her.

Kevin
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 07:09 PM
K4D, did you have any alcohol during this encounter? I seem to recall you are/were attending AA meetings? Are you still following the 12-step program?
Posted By: Kettricken Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 07:12 PM
Originally Posted By: stuck808
I agree with everyone else that there was nothing wrong with a little female interaction. The question is are you seeing it more like a friendship or are you getting "intoxicated" because it's another drug to substitute your W? You've shown in the past that you've substituted one form of addiction for another. I can see this as being the same. That's why you're falling so deeply for this person.

For God's sake it was only one night. If you felt totally intoxicated with this person, then you've got a bigger issue. It's not a grown up R. For all you know, she felt lonely too and latched onto you because of that.


This. Also, if you think you can get to know a stranger in any way that even approaches deeply and authentically in one evening in a bar, you are in no way ready for ANY relationship.

Instant spark? A little opposite-sex validation. Sure, absolutely. But that's ALL it is. A healthy relationship is not based on mutual ego stroking.

Serious question: What was so awesome about her *beyond the fact* that she was reasonably attractive and kept blowing off other guys to stay focused on you?

Also, watch your vocabulary. I see repeated phrases like, "I was captivated by her, I shouldn't allow her to draw me in", etc. That betrays an attitude of powerlesseness relative to this woman that is neither mature nor attractive. I highly doubt you were just sitting there like a bump on a log, not responding, and it was all her. The same would be true of any repeat interactions. Own your own stuff.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 07:18 PM
I didn't say I was sitting there quiet like a bump on a log. I said eventually I started ignoring her and paying attention to the tv because other guys were hitting on her. But she kept blowing them off to talk to me. 6 hours with a person and you run out of things to say at various points. I am owning my own stuff. Like I said, I sat down next to her initially. And I started talking to her while the game was on. But then I would turn away and focus on the game and she would talk to me more. It wasn't all her at first. But after a while, it became more her than me. And I did get cocky with her and would focus back on the game and she just seemed more interested in me.

It was a fun night.

ppenton, I had 2 shots with her later on in the night. I am still following the 12 step program, but I loosened up last night as the evening went on. It was more just having fun with her. She wanted to do a couple of shots and so I did 2 with her.

Kevin
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 07:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
Also, watch your vocabulary. I see repeated phrases like, "I was captivated by her, I shouldn't allow her to draw me in", etc. That betrays an attitude of powerlesseness relative to this woman that is neither mature nor attractive. I highly doubt you were just sitting there like a bump on a log, not responding, and it was all her. The same would be true of any repeat interactions. Own your own stuff.


This is why I feel like he's considering this woman as an escape hatch. You got swept up by one night of deep, meaningful conversation? It happens.

You are a grown adult and a moral agent. Own your feelings and take responsibility for your actions, both then and now.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 07:35 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I had 2 shots with her later on in the night. I am still following the 12 step program, but I loosened up last night as the evening went on. It was more just having fun with her. She wanted to do a couple of shots and so I did 2 with her.Kevin


Only 2 shots!?! Seriously!?! It's not like you're an ADDICT or anything. WTF!!! Kevin. You're still following the 12 step program!?! What program is that. I don't recall any of the steps of the AA program allowing shots.

Who are you kidding!?!

Please get HELP for your ADDICTIVE PERSONALITY. Until then your life will continue to be a ROLLERCOASTER FROM HELL.

Come on man! You can do this. You have to learn how to handle pain without ADDICTION. You cant keep on running from this. It's a VICIOUS CYCLE that will always come back around and DESTROY YOU and YOUR LOVED ONES.

How can you say you are still following the "12 Step Program" if you are not even past the first step of "DENIAL". You still think you have CONTROL of your LIFE.

At this point, it's OBVIOUS to eveyone on this board, especially 25, that you just come here for ATTENTION. Why cant you come for HELP and ADVICE like most people and actually DO what is advised. Until then you are just going to keep on repeating this sick cycle of hurting yourself and others.

God Speed. PMA
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 07:39 PM
From your posts it really sounds like a bad idea for you to see her again.

"I really enjoyed her."
What's up with that comment? You should say "I really enjoyed myself". You talk about her as if she were a dog. It really doesn't sound that healthy for you especially since that one interaction had you taking a couple of shots.

You just made an excuse as to why it was okay for you to take the shots. The next thing you're going to do is explain why it's okay for you to drink again, then to kiss her, then to have sex with her.

I have a feeling this is going to fall on deaf ears but hey you're the adult right? You're the one who criticized everyone for not being a Stander right? You were the one who said when you are divorced you are still married to your covenant partner right? So technically you're going out with a M woman. Kind of like how you condemned your W for doing the same and calling her a harlot.

It's not so bad if it's just for friendship but who the hell are you fooling? Your post is like a little boy deep in a crush. It's up to you if you want to continue seeing her (which I have a feeling you're going to do no matter what anyone tells you). It just seems pretty unhealthy for YOU. But that's okay, I guess your Ds will think it's okay. Heck they're Mom's doing it any way.
Posted By: GoBison Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 07:39 PM
Quote:
I had 2 shots with her later on in the night. I am still following the 12 step program, but I loosened up last night as the evening went on.


Sounds like you are going along well with the 12 step program.

Why is it that you mentioned some woman talking to you instead of this? Why don't you feel guilty about this?

Are the changes you are making for yourself? Are you really truly making any changes?

Everything you have done is about getting your W back. Making a stand and going back to church is that really about you finding God and yourself or just a ploy to get your W back.

If you are looking for someone to say ok Kevin you suffered long enough go throw this woman down and get on with your life. Go do it then. It's the fastest way out for you. Have fun for the next 3 months until she gives you the boot and then you can go back to Standing for your marriage.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 07:40 PM
Quote:
Ok, so now yall know. I am also human. I let myself get caught up in the moment and totally enjoyed it. I didn't think I was human for so long. But I guess I am.
OMG. Kevin's human. Lets smash his spirits and talk about the devil and drinking and lets confuse him with a million things we think he should do instead of living life and enjoying himself. Kevin have you read this book yet, it might help......

RUIN HIM! RUIN HIM! RUIN HIM! He was smiling.

Even better lets contridict ourselves and tell him one thing one week and something different today. Woo Hoo. We rule at befuddling Kevin. Who knows maybe this woman was an alien sex fiend and plans on abducting Kevin so they can use him as a sex slave to help repopulate their alien race. And here we go telling Kevin he needs to question himself yet again. Jeez.

Enjoy yourself Kevin. Do what makes YOU happy. Do what you want and do it for yourself.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 07:47 PM
I hear ya Steve. Human or dancer? Just like the killers song. What's the definition of insanity again? I must be insane. Right. Go have fun. I think that's what all of us have been saying for the last year. Move on. Detach. GAL! Date. Stop drinking. Go to AA. Leave your WAW da He11 alone. I'm all for making new friends, but being in DENIAL of BIGGER ISSUES is a whole other DEAL.

Good Luck with all that!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 07:47 PM
PMA,

I am not coming here for attention. And I did not get drunk last night. Geez, I had 2 shots with her. I actually went and worked out yesterday afternoon before even heading over there last night. No, it was not part of the 12 step program. My gosh dude, lighten up.

I am not in denial about anything. I do know how to control myself. So I had fun with a lady last night that I really ended up liking. Give me a break.

I did not come here for attention. I was just posting what happened last night. I was looking to get some perspective on the events.

But, whatever. I do still want my M fixed. I just got caught up in the night.

That is fine. I don't have to post anything.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 07:51 PM
Will power Kevin. You have to learn about it and make it a NUT (non-negotiable unalterable term) that you will never touch alcohol ever again.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 07:52 PM
Getting a little defensive are we? HMMMM sounds like your W.

Dude the drinking is a problem. You can justify it all you want but it really is a bad idea.
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 07:55 PM
Hi Kevin, just catching up on your thread the last couple of days. Glad you had a good time out but I agree with everyone that told you that you need to let this woman know that you are only looking for friendship.

It will be a rebound, and you are the one that taught me all I know on standing for a marriage. Don't stop now. Don't let the evil take over. You are doing such a great job, don't mess it up now. I also want to thank you for sending me to that web site, if it wasn't for you I would have given up.

Keep up the good work, but stand.
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 07:58 PM
Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
Originally Posted By: K4D
She wanted to do a couple of shots and so I did 2 with her.Kevin


Only 2 shots!?! Seriously!?! It's not like you're an ADDICT or anything. WTF!!! Kevin. You're still following the 12 step program!?! What program is that. I don't recall any of the steps of the AA program allowing shots.


Holy crap, I missed that part.

What the hell are you thinking?? If you're willing to throw away whatever progress you've made on tackling your alcoholism for a woman that you don't know, then you are in more trouble than you realize.

Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
You just made an excuse as to why it was okay for you to take the shots. The next thing you're going to do is explain why it's okay for you to drink again, then to kiss her, then to have sex with her.


He's already started doing that. He liked the attention after being neglected for so long by his wife; he's struggling with it, but he's swept away by her feminine wiles.

Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
At this point, it's OBVIOUS to eveyone on this board, especially 25, that you just come here for ATTENTION.


I'm beginning to agree. We're supposed to feel so sorry for Kevin because of this great moral struggle he's going through, but it's a no-brainer.

If you are standing for your marriage, then don't see this woman again -- especially since she can convince you to throw away your progress as an alcoholic.

(Out of curiosity, did that come up at all in your amazing 6-hour conversation? If not, why not? Especially when she invited you to do shots?)

Either way, I'm done here. Best of luck to you, Kevin, because you're going to need it.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 07:58 PM
Kev. If you were my friend. I'd kick your azz. We have all devoted a lot of time and effort to try and help you. You have shown over and over again that you have an ADDICTIVE PERSONALITY. Whether it's ALCOHOL or RELIGION or YOUR GIRLS (Great if done with the right intentions and motivation ;-) ) You have shown that your MODERATION part of the brain is not working. You like to go ALL IN every chance. We should definitely play poker some time wink Regardless, once again I wouldnt write if I didnt care. I want you to get the HELP you need to become the BEST KEVIN you can be. Maybe you should join the ARMY. Anyway, you CANT do that if your NOT HONEST with yourself. What DESTROYED your marriage? ALCOHOL! ANGER! ADDICTION!?! Figure that out and your on your way to having the life you want. Keep on running and making decision based on what's EASIER vs. what takes WORK and you will never get there.


Sorry to be rough I just get frustrated when you start looking/acting like your figuring things out and then you go and say something ignorant like "I only had 2 shots but I'm still going to the 12 step program".

PMA
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 07:59 PM
Ok, I put myself into a situation that I should not have last night. I can agree and admit that. It has been on my mind today. I posted for perspective. It went against everything I have been saying and doing to stand. I also admit I made mistakes in how to interact with my W. I also admit that I was judgemental. I didn't like what she was doing, but in a way, I let myself do the same thing last night. I shouldn't have. I will be canceling going out with her again this week. I let the moment take over me. I said it was wrong from the beginning.

I appreciate the 2x4s.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:07 PM
Don't worry. I am sure 25 will either say nothing or blast me. I'm not sure which. I guess I shouldn't have posted today. I thought I would be honest. But I see now, that I should have just kept quiet and fixed what happened last night on my own.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:12 PM
Sigh,

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:14 PM
Really? Let's face it if you didn't post here you would have gone out with her, drank some more, probably had sex and tossed whatever "progress" you had out the window.

Look at what you're doing even now. You are waffling between "oh I shouldn't have posted" to "I'm glad for the 2x4s". Whatever.

IMO since you're going to do what you want any way, go ahead and go out with her and swing the alcohol. I'm sure God will understand. So much for page 92 of your post.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:18 PM
Stuck,

If you noticed, I just changed my signature for page 92 on standing.

I am glad I posted here. I needed to get 2x4'd. But I am not sure that is exactly what I got. I am not going to go back out with her. I will cancel that. I think that everything everyone said was on target. I don't know why I posted it though. I think I was just feeling conflicted within myself and so I posted it.

So I made a mistake. A couple last night. I realize that. This is definitely a harsh site at times. I guess it is needed. And I am not looking for anyone to feel sorry for me. I can own up to what I did.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:20 PM
Quote:
So much for page 92 of your post.


Yes. So much for it I guess. I caved last night.

Kevin
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:21 PM
Kevin,

At some point you have to stop listening to the people on here and make your own decisions...


QUIT PUNISHING yourself. You are PUNISHING yourself..

Go out with this woman and have some fun. Quit punishing yourself. You are allowing others to help punish you on this site. Stop allowing them to punish you and stop punishing yourself...

Go for it... Allow happiness. Let happiness in. Stop trying to be with a woman who DOES NOT want you and go for a woman who DOES act like they want you and stop punishing yourself.

You are doing nothing but self punishment. Go for it.

Stop telling the people on here what you are up to and make your own decisions. MAKE YOUR OWN DECISIONS... and THEN..... LIVE WITH THEM... no need to get the permission of people on here. Make YOUR OWN DECISIONS... Stop the self inflicted punishment over every decision...


Good luck... GO FOR IT... Go for the HAPPINESS... Quit the self punishment of wating for your WAW. Stop doing this to yourself...
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:30 PM
GL,

It's not the going out and having a great time. Hey I'm all for that. It's the addiction of the alcohol with that. That's what everyone's up against. Can't be in AA then start drinking when a hot piece of @$$ comes along.

Get an addictive personality with something like that and you end up crashing and burning hard. It's the nature of alcoholism or any other addictive substance.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:32 PM
I am NOT addicted to alcohol. I had 2 shots last night. And I am NOT in denial of my past. I acknowledge what my past was. I simply had fun last night. Goodness gracious.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:37 PM
25,

Do you have anything to add or has it all been said today?

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:37 PM
It's not so much the addiction to alcohol it's the addictive nature in general. Geez Kev, take a look at what the others wrote to you about that.

But like I said, I'm all into having fun and a great time with a female.
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:40 PM
This is from about a year ago...

Originally Posted By: K4D
I haven't drank in 3 months. The only reason I started back before was because she said it was ok to do it now and then and I did it more after that. This time I am done completely no matter what she says. I thought it was ok before.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:41 PM
Stuck,

I got weak and fell last night. I fell to easily. It happened. I should have been stronger. I have been and I just caved last night.

Yes, I read what everyone said. I realize I become easily influenced at times/addiction mentallity I guess.

It just seems like if I do anything, everyone says ADDICTION. I'm not quite sure how to get around that or get past that.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:45 PM
KerryK,

I get it. I am not going to let this lead me back into drinking regulary again. Not that what I say means anything. But for my own self.

I do know that I can have a drink or 2 and walk away just fine and not crave it now. As FaithfulH can attest to, I had a margarita one night with him at a mexican restaurant and that was it. I was fine. I didn't want anymore. But it sure went great with the food.

But I guess there is no reason to tempt it to become more again.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:45 PM
KerryK,

What in the world possessed you to go back that far on my thread?

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:45 PM
It's not just a river in Egypt.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:46 PM
That's what the C was supposed to be for.

And let's face it. You didn't "fail" as a Stander. Nothing wrong with going out with other W. It's the intention that matters.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:46 PM
Quote:
It's not just a river in Egypt.


Ok. I am perplexed with this statement. Do you want to fill me in a little better?

Kevin
Posted By: Coach Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:46 PM
Quote:
It just seems like if I do anything, everyone says ADDICTION. I'm not quite sure how to get around that or get past that.


Because the things that get you excited or moving are all external. How about trying the one thing everyone agrees to here. Kevin decide for himself and take action based on his internal influences - beliefs, values, faith, convictions and character.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:48 PM
Quote:
And let's face it. You didn't "fail" as a Stander. Nothing wrong with going out with other W. It's the intention that matters.


Agreed and I believe I said that it was not right. The intention was not moral. And yes, I did fail as a stander because I caved to the very thing that I adamantly stood for as a stander.

Kevin
Posted By: GoBison Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:51 PM
Quote:
Quote:
And let's face it. You didn't "fail" as a Stander. Nothing wrong with going out with other W. It's the intention that matters.


Agreed and I believe I said that it was not right. The intention was not moral. And yes, I did fail as a stander because I caved to the very thing that I adamantly stood for as a stander.


So stand up. Todays a new day. Cowboy up.


Quote:
Quote:
It's not just a river in Egypt.


Ok. I am perplexed with this statement. Do you want to fill me in a little better?


Da Nile
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:51 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
It's not just a river in Egypt.


Ok. I am perplexed with this statement. Do you want to fill me in a little better?

Kevin


Google it!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:57 PM
PMA, I see what it means. It just didn't click with me originally.

Coach, Thanks for the insight. I see what you are saying. Everything has been external for me.

GoBison,

Today is a new day. I will say I did well in how I handled the sitch with W last night. I am rather proud of that. And I got to see the look of confusion in her face.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 08:59 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
KerryK,

What in the world possessed you to go back that far on my thread?

Kevin

A year is not that far back. I just wanted to show you that you are repeating a vicious cycle. What would be so terrible about giving up alcohol all together?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 09:00 PM
Quote:
A year is not that far back. I just wanted to show you that you are repeating a vicious cycle. What would be so terrible about giving up alcohol all together?


Nothing. I just got caught up in the moment last night.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 09:02 PM
Do not let this NEW girl hear you talk like you are posting this afternoon. She will drop off the radar very quickly and you will be back to square one. Get off the Internet and call her!
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 09:11 PM
Kev. No one is faulting you for making mistakes. We are all human and we all make mistakes. The trick is learning from them and stopping the cycle.

Are you strong enough to stop the cycle.

Answer = NO You have proven that you ALONE are not.

Hence AA, This board. etc.

Accept the help and get ur done!!!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 09:37 PM
Understood.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 10:00 PM
No response from W today. No email either saying how she wants to work the schedule and holidays.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 10:17 PM
I thought you had dinner with W and the kids this weekend. Why did you not get the schedule ironed out then?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 10:20 PM
KerryK, I did not have dinner with her last night. I canceled on her, asked her to send me her plans via email, dressed up, dropped the kids off, and split out of there. Left her confused.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 10:42 PM
Ok, look, I am just going to make this post and try to stay on topic about what I see happening here.

Lets remove your situation from the discussion and look at it in a new way. Lets say you were hiking in the desert for hours and your canteen ran out of water. And its like 150 degrees and you are so thirsty you feel like you might die. And for miles and miles you can see NOTHING but sand and sun. No people, no phones, no help... NOTHING. But you keep going. And right when you are about to drop over dead from dehydration and exhaustion you spot a hole filled with water. But the water has poo and dead animals floating in it. I bet you one million dollars that water would be the best damn water you EVER TASTED IN YOUR LIFE! Even though the water clearly was toxic you would not care because without it you would die.

As I see it, last night when you cancelled on your W at the last minute, showed up to drop off the kids acting all confident and strong and went on your way you get a tremendous boost of *something*. I think the *something* was finally feeling like you had some control. So, you go to the bar and some hot little lady starts to pay attention to you. Most probably because the confidence boost you got from the exchange you had with your wife was just oozing from your pores.

Nothing wrong with drinking up female attention. Nothing wrong with meeting new people and having fun. What I find disturbing are the following points....

(A) you were so darn judgemental about your W and her desire to meet men and went so far as to call her a whore. But when the tables turned you realized how nice it felt. Use this as a lesson next time you feel judgement creeping in.

(B) when you have been without "water" for a LONG time any form of liquid will sound like the best thing ever. Make new friends, meet new people just don't lap it up like you are dying of thirst.

(C) I do believe you use external factors to pacify your pain and anger. We all have done it so I wont bash you for that, its just that you continue to do it. And you MUST be happy within before you can be happy with somebody else. And I don't think you are a happy person. I think you are a sad person, afraid of change, unable to move forward and you change your strategies as quickly as the wind blows to find the easiest way out. I did that too and it landed me in the hospital because eventually the anxiety of not helping myself in the proper way ate at my soul.

(D) If you are in AA why don't you have a sponsor? You said SHE wanted to do a couple of shots and she wanted you to do them with her. Well, if she wanted you to jump off the highest building in Dallas would you have? Why not say... thanks for the offer but in the past alcohol has been an issue in my life so I will pass but enjoy! I feel you did not say that because you wanted to please her and show her how fun you are.

As I said, I am ALL for making new friends of both sexes and going out and having fun. I just don't feel you are at a point where you can handle a female platonic friendship because you are so "thirsty".

I am your friend but you feel no attraction to me because I also have no problem kicking your ass up and down and calling you out on BS. But not this chicky that you met last night... she stroked your ego. Cool. We ALL need an ego stroking from time to time. Proceed with caution.

Do what you want but the way you flip flop is a red flag. First you are glad you posted and got very honest feedback. Then you got pissed about the feedback. Then you wanted to take your toys and go home because things got too heated.

If I ever come to Dallas I am coming to your house. I will spend 15 minutes shaking the sh*t out of you then we will go dancing.

My uncle was an alcoholic for THIRTY years. He threw his life away. He had a full ride to LSU to play football and if you want his name you can Google it and he still holds records there. He was on the fast track to the NFL and he threw it all way on drinking. He threw away three marriages to lovely women due to drinking. He destroyed his R with his son. He destroyed his R with both his parents and they passed away before any amends could be made. By some grace of amazing strength my mom and her two sister stuck by their brother. He was sober for just 20 months or so we thought. He simply replaced drinking with gambling. Then he needed an emergency bypass and that nobody even thought he would live through. And he made it. And after my mom and her sisters dropped everything in their life for weeks and weeks to help him w/his recovery from the bypass guess what he did the day he went home. He started drinking again. Just one drink was all it took.

I just feel until you have some internal peace external factors will always rule your life. And no external factor will provide you with peace.

Nothing wrong with having fun and meeting people. But know where you are at and what you can handle.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 10:58 PM
Quote:
If I ever come to Dallas I am coming to your house. I will spend 15 minutes shaking the sh*t out of you then we will go dancing.


lol. Can you west coast swing dance?

Anyways, as usual that is an excellent analysis. Yes, my ego was heavily stroked. But I will pass on the drinks from anyone going forward. You are right in what I could have said instead. I am sorry to hear that about your dad. I am sure it was terrible to live through.

I guess I can't take chances with this sort of thing. I don't want it to turn back into what it used to be. I do have 2 sponsors now by the way. I just didn't call them.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 11:13 PM
BTW, How exactly did you FAIL as a Stander? Because you talked to a girl at a bar. Please stop the pity parties already. Why do you need this attention?

Negative Mental Attitudes like that will kill you. Even though you are just saying it to get attention it's still BAD.
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/09/09 11:22 PM
Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
BTW, How exactly did you FAIL as a Stander? Because you talked to a girl at a bar. Please stop the pity parties already. Why do you need this attention?


Because it works? He's gotten over 80 posts to his thread today.

He appreciates everyone's analysis of his situation, thanks them for their responses, then he goes and does whatever he damn well wants. Lather, rinse, repeat.

You can keep trying to engage with him if you want. Me, I see plenty of other people who need help who might actually listen.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/10/09 03:31 AM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Quote:
Ok, so now yall know. I am also human. I let myself get caught up in the moment and totally enjoyed it. I didn't think I was human for so long. But I guess I am.
OMG. Kevin's human. Lets smash his spirits and talk about the devil and drinking and lets confuse him with a million things we think he should do instead of living life and enjoying himself. Kevin have you read this book yet, it might help......

RUIN HIM! RUIN HIM! RUIN HIM! He was smiling.

Even better lets contridict ourselves and tell him one thing one week and something different today. Woo Hoo. We rule at befuddling Kevin. Who knows maybe this woman was an alien sex fiend and plans on abducting Kevin so they can use him as a sex slave to help repopulate their alien race. And here we go telling Kevin he needs to question himself yet again. Jeez.

Enjoy yourself Kevin. Do what makes YOU happy. Do what you want and do it for yourself.


Thank you, Jesus, that I am not the only one that was thinking this.

But on the shots, Kev, NO WOMAN is worth the shots Kev. You know you have a long way to go yet - and you can recall how you've done or said things under the influence. You're a big boy and you get to decide, but I don't think this is the best idea at all.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/10/09 03:33 AM
Originally Posted By: TrentC
Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
BTW, How exactly did you FAIL as a Stander? Because you talked to a girl at a bar. Please stop the pity parties already. Why do you need this attention?


Because it works? He's gotten over 80 posts to his thread today.

He appreciates everyone's analysis of his situation, thanks them for their responses, then he goes and does whatever he damn well wants. Lather, rinse, repeat.

You can keep trying to engage with him if you want. Me, I see plenty of other people who need help who might actually listen.


Then go and help them and stop putting yourself through this agony. Really. Nothing to see here. Move along.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/10/09 03:43 AM

I agree. Nothing to see here.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/10/09 03:17 PM
Quote:
I guess I can't take chances with this sort of thing. I don't want it to turn back into what it used to be. I do have 2 sponsors now by the way. I just didn't call them.


Kev what the hell do you think sponsors are for? Have you told them what happened? Look I've been where you are with addiction, you think two drinks I can handle it...Sure today but two turns to three and if you had two shots I find it very hard to believe you didn't have any beer.

Please call your sponsors talk to them, LEARN from them.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 03:51 AM
VD, I actually don't really care for beer. But dually noted. I think I feel kind of funny calling a sponsor especially if I am with someone.

I talked to W tonight. D11 was sick and stayed home today. I also had my bank card lost/stolen, not sure which. I had to deal with that tonight. Someone tried to make withdrawals but luckily the system declined the transactions and the bank called me and issued me a new card.

Here is the conversation with W. Interesting response when I throw in the words "custody arrangements".

K4D: How is D11 doing
W: she's ok
K4D: Ok good
K4D: Can you make D7 a car rider tomorrow
W: ummm sure
W: you're picking her up at 3:00?
K4D: Ya. We are closed tomorrow apparently
W: oh cool
W: ok
K4D: Not cool. Don't get paid
W: send R a text tomorrow letting her know they dont need to pick up D11 too
K4D: Someone stole my bank card also
W: yeah well, 1 day is better than the 1 week i'm told i'm expected to take off after christmas
W: oh no!
K4D: So had to deal with that
W: how did that happen?
W: sorry to hear that
K4D: Guess it fell out of my pocket somewhere
K4D: Someone tried to make large withdrawals
K4D: The bank called me. They are issuing a new card to me
W: oh crap. how much money did you lose?
W: oh good
K4D: 5 to 7 business days
W: that's a long time
K4D: Ya
W: did they get a lot of money?
K4D: No
K4D: The transactions were declined
W: oh good
K4D: I just don't have real access to my account right now
K4D: So I am having to use a credit card for gas and food stuff
W: means you have to carry cash, i guess?
K4D: Ya
W: ok
K4D: The kids do have school tomorrow right?
W: yes
W: unfortunately. i know it would be nice for them to have the day with you
K4D: What time does D11 get out?
W: 4:00
W: is when you can expect her to get out
W: at best
K4D: That stinks. Go ahead and just leave D7 in the bell then
W: oh ok
K4D: Don't want to make 2 trips
W: alright
W: you could take her to mcd's.
W: or the park
K4D: Low on money right now
K4D: Trying to save
W: ahhh. yeah. know that feeling. i'm going to get a crappy paycheck tomorrow. this is going to be a crappy 2 weeks
K4D: Ya. I guess I could take her to a park
W: not out tonight?
K4D: Was going to help some people move a couch and bed and I just got told they are gonna do it tomorrow
W: oh
K4D: So nothing else was planned tonight
W: so can you pull up a calendar and we can have a quick polite convo about changing the exchange days and the holiday schedule
W: or would you prefer i send it to you in email?
K4D: I would prefer any kind of custody arrangements in email
W: custody arrangements? seriously?
W: ok
W: so that's why you cancelled. i see
K4D: No. That is not why I canceled
K4D: But after thinking about it, I think it to be best that way
K4D: Sunday night I had a great evening
W: well since we aren't talking about the kids anymore. have a good night.
K4D: Ok
K4D: Good night

I guess she really was confused about Sunday night.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 04:53 AM
I'm not sure if this actually backfired or it is working like it is supposed to.

Kevin
Posted By: 12bar Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 05:26 AM
K

I don't know your past with alcohol and I have never posted to your thread. If you are honest in saying that you only had two drinks, I would say that shows a pretty strong measure of "control". But if you are truly an alcoholic, you do have to be careful of getting back on the horse. Don't let it progress to more!

BTW, see your encounter for what it was. It was great to feel wanted again and that will help keep your spirits up. God knows I would love to feel that now too. But one night in a bar does not have a lot of meaning.

Just my 0.02 cents
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 05:36 AM
Quote:
BTW, see your encounter for what it was. It was great to feel wanted again and that will help keep your spirits up. God knows I would love to feel that now too. But one night in a bar does not have a lot of meaning.


Yup. I think I was just overly excited because it has been so long since I felt like that.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 05:40 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I'm not sure if this actually backfired or it is working like it is supposed to.

Kevin

You got her hooked and played out. Reel-er in now. whistle
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 05:53 AM
Quote:
You got her hooked and played out. Reel-er in now.


Easier said than done. That will literally take step by step coaching.

Kevin
Posted By: EnoughAlready Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 06:26 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I also had my bank card lost/stolen, not sure which. I had to deal with that tonight. Someone tried to make withdrawals but luckily the system declined the transactions and the bank called me and issued me a new card.


I don't know why, but the first thing I thought about after reading this was the girl at the bar (and the guys supposedly hitting on her)....Maybe they were all in cahoots?
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 02:47 PM
Just wanted to let you know I was following your thread. Will have to go back and get the exact details.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 03:54 PM
OK - you want some step by step coaching, here is what I think.

For the most part you handled that IM *very* well. I still think you are offering your W too much info about your personal life.

I would not have told her about the lost/stolen bank card, that you are low on money, that you are using a credit card right now for the basics or that you are trying to save money. Too much info. If you have your own bank account there is no need for your W to know what is going on with it. If she is tied to that account of course she would need to know about the stolen/lost card but if the acct. is solely yours then what was the point of telling her about it? Finances are now personal matters and since she said she ONLY wanted to talk about the children then ONLY talk about the children.

Wasn't one of her complaints the fact that she felt you couldn't support a family? Do you thinking telling her that you could not afford to take your daughter to McD's was a good or bad move? First of all, she shouldn't be offering you suggestions on where and how to spend time with your children. I simply would have said "daughter and I always find something fun and interesting to do!" and left it at that.

When she asked if you had plans and you told her what those plans were (moving couch) but it got cancelled you should have either said "yes, I have plans so I really need to run, can you go ahead and send the custody arrangement via e-mail so I have a few days to look it over and compare it against my schedule" I might even have added something along the lines of you wanting to get a firm schedule nailed down ASAP due to your busy holiday schedule.

When she asked why you cancelled dinner the other night you could have said "after giving it some thought I felt it best for me to have all custody discussion "on paper"... I am sorry I cancelled at the last minute but something came up". Then say no more - don't tell her what a good time you had. Let her wonder what came up and let her wonder why you want all custody talks to have a paper trail.

And be sure to end all talks/IM's first. Avoid all this needless personal banter. She is the one that dictated to you that she only cares to speak to you about the children so follow that. If and when she starts to reach out to you, you can change your strategy a bit but for now keep it VERY vague and let her wonder what you are up to both personally and legally. It wouldn't hurt her to think you are wanting "paper trails" about custody to perhaps plant the seed that you are in the process of getting the legal ball rolling.

I can guarantee you she won't like this and will start acting very bitchy but tough. She said kid talk only so you will follow that to a "T". She will not like that doesn't get to know everything and what you are up to. If she happens to ask if you have any legal plans I would simple tell her that yes, you have been exploring options from a legal standpoint and when you have something to discuss with her about finalizing the divorce you will let her know. But don't say ANY of that unless she brings it up first.

IMO of course.
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 04:03 PM
Great job City Girl.

Are you listening Kevin?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 05:32 PM
Yes, I see where I went wrong in our IM conversation now. Thanks CG.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 06:12 PM
Quote:
I don't know why, but the first thing I thought about after reading this was the girl at the bar (and the guys supposedly hitting on her)....Maybe they were all in cahoots?


A very reasonable thought. But I was with that girl Sunday night. I had my card Monday morning as I used it. Monday evening it must have fallen out of my pocket as I didn't put it back in my wallet. Tuesday morning I got a call from the bank saying someone tried to make large withdrawals, but they were declined. But my account is fine. A new card is on the way.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 06:18 PM
You didn't go "wrong" you just offered too much info. Keep pulling back when it comes to personal chatter, the more you do that the more she will wonder.

IMO if your child is sick when your W has her it is perfectly appropriate to IM/text for an update on how your sick child is doing. But that is ALL you should be discussing. If your W asks anything else or even tries to slip in any tiny bit of chit chat kindly say "thanks for the update on daughter, gotta run!"

The WAS likes to make the rules - in this case she will only speak to you about the kids. So follow the rules she dictated and let her wallow in that for a while. Its really the only way to "train" a WAS that they can't have both. The less she knows about your life the better.

And, just to shake her up a bit when you do get the new custody proposal she is sending you I would send it back and make it *very* official looking with both of your full names, the full names of the children, the date in which the agreement was sent and when this particular agreement will expire and a new agreement will be negotiated. She wants it all about business then make it ALL about business and treat this as you would a formal business proposal. I would also electronically initial it and ask her to do the same and return the initialed document to you within x days.

Also, this is sort of a random suggestion but I would start thinking about what kind of tradition you can start with your kids for YOU and YOUR KIDS ONLY this Christmas. It doesn't have to be about money or tons of gifts. Make it something special that you and your children can do each year that doesn't involve your W or anybody else but you and your kids. And don't tell your W about it either as this has nothing to do with her.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 06:21 PM
Step by step,

Kevin the texas two step w/ IM for right now.

Step one - wife initiates IM convo:

wife - hey, whats up.
kevin - hey
wife - blah, blah, blah
wife - you there.
kevin - hey, whats up.
wife - blah, blah, blah
kevin - oh.
kevin - I'm sorry. but can we talk later? it confusing trying to chat with 3 people at once. I am trying to make plans for later. I'll call you OK?

A few minutes later kevin signs off.

Step 2 - Kevin never calls.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 06:32 PM
Steve Mcqueen's the man with the plan!
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 06:46 PM
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Steve Mcqueen's the man with the plan!

The dude had so many good movies...Papillon, The Great Escape, Bullitt, The Sand Pebbles....
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 06:50 PM
Yeah, Steve Mcqueen is hardcore. Even I didnt think of the IM, too busy making plans, call you if I feel like it "two step".

Props!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 06:53 PM
Quote:
Step by step,

Kevin the texas two step w/ IM for right now.

Step one - wife initiates IM convo:

wife - hey, whats up.
kevin - hey
wife - blah, blah, blah
wife - you there.
kevin - hey, whats up.
wife - blah, blah, blah
kevin - oh.
kevin - I'm sorry. but can we talk later? it confusing trying to chat with 3 people at once. I am trying to make plans for later. I'll call you OK?

A few minutes later kevin signs off.

Step 2 - Kevin never calls.


I am so going to do this the next time the opportunity presents itself. This is excellent SM.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 07:25 PM
W, myself and my BIL will be having dinner together this Saturday night. My BIL is flying in on business and W wanted to see him. He has no idea what to talk to her about but would like to see her to. This should be an interesting evening. The kids won't be there. It will just be the 3 of us. Interestingly she knows where he stands regarding our M. I am not sure why she wants to have dinner with him. I guess just to say hi.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 07:29 PM
Why are you having dinner with them?

I smell a disaster in the making.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 07:31 PM
No way. She's there to be sure you don't say anything that might put her in a "bad light". Did she just invite herself?

If so, I would just tell her it was a guys night out. Or have your BIL choose someplace where she wouldn't be caught dead in.

She wants to control the situation. And all I can see is BAD NEWS coming if this happens. If she insists on going, then tell your BIL you'll go out with him separately.

And besides she didn't want to talk about anything other than the kids right? I think with your BIL it would be much more than just the kids.
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 07:32 PM
Originally Posted By: JackThreeBeans
What do you call an LBS who won't listen, learn or improve themself?



















Divorced.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 07:41 PM
Stuck,

She invited herself. BIL said it was fine and he would love to see her. He just doesn't know what to talk to her about as he has already run his course in trying to get her to reconsider the circumstances.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 07:52 PM
I'm not sure what there is for her to control in the situation. I talk to him regularly. We are spending the whole weekend together. I will be showing him around the metroplex. She knows he is adamantly opposed to what she is doing and he has let her know that many times.

I am actually really perplexed by the fact that she even wants to have dinner with him as she has written off everyone else in my family for being opposed to what she is doing.

Strange really. He is my BIL on my side of the family, not hers.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 07:53 PM
Quote:
What do you call an LBS who won't listen, learn or improve themself? Divorced.


KerryK,

I'm sure there is a point to this quote. I am sure you are saying that I am not learning, listening or improving myself. But I am.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 07:55 PM
It's controlling plain and simple. She invited herself and is intruding on YOUR time with him. I would SERIOUSLY uninvite her or ask your BIL to change the plans where she isn't going to be able to make it.

Just the plain fact that he's your BIL and not hers makes it all suspect. She wants something plain and simple.

How did she even know he was coming?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 07:57 PM
I told the kids there uncle was coming to town.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 07:59 PM
That's even worse how she found out. You're being manipulated and treated like a tool. If you do not stop her the evening is going to turn out to be nightmare with your BIL stuck in the middle.
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 08:18 PM
A Streecar Named Desire. Your wife will be playing the role of Marlon Brando: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT4ZHcF4Ejg
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 08:46 PM
LOL. Tell her a story about parrots then ask her to clear the table. smile
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 09:12 PM
The only thing I can figure is that my BIL is very successful in the banking world. W is doing alot of what my BIL did starting out. My W values people on their financial successes and positions. My W also loves to brag about hers. So I am wondering if this is more of a "look at me, I am on the road to doing what you do" kind of thing. I don't know, but I just can't really figure any other reason for this.

She knows he staunchly stands against what she is doing. My BIL is a traditional catholic with 7 kids. Very profamily. My W obviously knows where I stand with our M.

So what does she want? I guess that is the million dollar question. Is it just to brag about herself and associate with someone she knows is successful? I don't know. She has no control over him. She has no control over anything we discuss. She knows that he knows about her first A.

Maybe in her warped mind she thinks there is a friendship there. Hard to figure. Now he does treat her like part of the family still as they communicate occasionally about what is going on. But he also tries to insert some influence into her reconsidering her position when they do.

I don't know and he doesn't know either. Maybe it would be better to find a way out of that dinner.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 09:18 PM
If this is your BIL from your side of the family then there should be no reason for your wife to go. I would change the plans. She can't insert herself whereever she wants to. Make other plans with BIL and leave her wondering.

I am a newbie on this thread but your wife sounds like a cake eater...I have lots of experience with this. She wants to play married when she wants and then single when she wants. Can't do that!
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 09:24 PM
Originally Posted By: KerryK
A Streecar Named Desire. Your wife will be playing the role of Marlon Brando: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT4ZHcF4Ejg


Heh.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 09:26 PM
You don't get it.

WHO CARES WHY SHE WANTS TO TALK TO HIM!

He's your BIL. You shouldn't and will not bow out of the dinner because that will be pathetic and weak.

Geez I can't believe I fell for the wanting attention thing again.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 09:28 PM
Why did you allow her to invite herself in the first place? When she did you should have told her no. Just like she told you no about attending HER b-day party or being included in any of her family events/dinners/parties. Sorry, it doesn't work both ways. She says the *only* interaction she wants is about the kids then that is what she will get. She can't change the rules when it suits her and if you let her know it will NEVER END.

No matter how good his intentions are your BIL should NOT be talking to your W about anything that is remotely involved or related to the marriage you and your W used to have or the current situation you are in.

If your W wants to network with other finance professionals tell her to go find a business group in Dallas and network her ass off.

I would e-mail her and say this:

W, I would prefer that you not attend the dinner when my BIL is in town. Things seem to have gotten a bit muddled as an invitation was never formally extended to you. As per your wishes to not discuss anything outside of the children such a dinner certainly would cross a boundary I am not ready to change at this time. I will let BIL know you said hello and best wishes! BTW, I still haven't received the updated custody proposal for the holiday season. I would like it by x (insert date here) as the holidays are rapidly approaching and I know both our schedules are filling up! Take Care! Kevin.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 09:29 PM
I don't think she will be playing the role of Marlon Brando. My BIL knows how to handle her. He isn't intimidated by her. He has 5,000 people under him at work. You can't get that far and not be able to face people and handle them.

I just wonder what the point of her wanting to show up is when he doesn't condone what she is doing.

I don't think she is trying to play married when she wants and single when she wants. She is definitely playing single. When my dad was here, she wasn't interested in getting together with him.

She may want something.

In the mean time, I get to get my kids early today since I am off work. So heading out to do that.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 09:32 PM
Quote:
Geez I can't believe I fell for the wanting attention thing again.


Stuck, I am not looking for attention. I was posting the situation.

I like what CG said to do. I think I will go with that.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 09:33 PM
It's like trying not to look at a car accident.

Nothing to see here is easier said then done.

Kev. I agree. It's what I have been saying from day one. She doesnt RESPECT YOU as H as FATHER as HUMAN BEING. Either you decide you DONT CARE what she thinks = Detaching, Moving on, Divorcing, etc... OR you CHOOSE to CARE and START gaining her RESPECT again. Come on now. You have been doing this way too long to not get that yet.

Start taking back CONTROL by CONTROLLING your interactions with her. That is one of things YOU can CONTROL that concerns her.
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 09:36 PM
Quote:
The only thing I can figure is that my BIL is very successful in the banking world. W is doing alot of what my BIL did starting out. My W values people on their financial successes and positions. My W also loves to brag about hers. So I am wondering if this is more of a "look at me, I am on the road to doing what you do" kind of thing. I don't know, but I just can't really figure any other reason for this.

She knows he staunchly stands against what she is doing. My BIL is a traditional catholic with 7 kids. Very profamily. My W obviously knows where I stand with our M.

So what does she want? I guess that is the million dollar question. Is it just to brag about herself and associate with someone she knows is successful? I don't know. She has no control over him. She has no control over anything we discuss. She knows that he knows about her first A.

Maybe in her warped mind she thinks there is a friendship there. Hard to figure. Now he does treat her like part of the family still as they communicate occasionally about what is going on. But he also tries to insert some influence into her reconsidering her position when they do.

I don't know and he doesn't know either. Maybe it would be better to find a way out of that dinner.

Kevin


Kevin,

Your spending WAY to much of YOUR time trying to figure out what is on your W's mind. You have to let this go, you can not know what she is thinking or why, so do not waste your time trying to figure it out. When you get it wrong, and you will, you just cause yourself more suffering.

Get her out of the dinner, because it's what you want and need, not because you want to see her, or wonder what's on her mind, or why she wants to see your BIL. Honestly, who cares why she wants to come? Do you want it? If not, then make other plans.

Are you worried she will be mad if she can't come? If your still doing things because of her, instead of yourself, you need to do a lot more work on you.

It comes off to her as completely weak if she inserts herself into this, and you meekly agree.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 09:36 PM
This happened a couple of weeks ago. Today she wanted to know what time to plan on us having dinner.

Ok, I really have to go now.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 09:43 PM
What? What r u talking about? Go where? Potty? To dinner? What? You DONT have to do anything! That is what we ALL have been saying. STOP letting her CONTROL you.

Show her a NEW, Confident Kevin that is tired of APOLOGIZING for the PAST and wants to be happy and MOVE ON. Tell her that you agree that it's over and start making custody arrangements. Show her that you are tired of her crap and are taking BACK THE CONTROL. Do it ALL while being RESPECTFUL just matter of fact PERIOD.

If it's OVER it's OVER. No amount of convincing or being Mr. Nice guy is going to get her back. Getting a back bone and showing her a new, confident YOU that is NOT going to be manipulated by her is the ONLY CHANCE YOU HAVE PERIOD!!! ugh!!!
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 09:47 PM
It doesn't matter if your BIL knows how to "handle her" because YOU don't know how to handle her.

You have a very golden opportunity here to let her know she is not in charge, she will not include herself in plans that involve your family unless she is invited and it simply will not happen.

SHE is the one that has been adamant that you only discuss the children. Since this is an adults only dinner then discussing the children would not be a topic of discussion therefore it would cross the boundary SHE set. If she has something to say about that you can gently remind her SHE is not the only one with the ability to set boundaries and if you honor and respect her boundaries then it's high time she start offering you the same courtesy.

Your wife is crafty and sneaky and you are probably right, she does in fact want something. Just let her know she won't be getting it from you or your BIL.

If you need some courage to make this clear to her just remember how RUDE she was about her b-day, rubbing her party in your nose and not including you or all the times you were told to wait in the yard because her mother can't stand the sight of you. Recall all the babbling that you were foolish enough to listen to about her sugar daddy that was so interesting to her. Don't bring any of that up but don't forget it either. Do not reward her bad behavior.

This is not her reaching out to you - this is about HER and whatever motives she has up her sleeve. You are on the cusp of being able to start nipping all this in the bud, don't lose sight now.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 09:55 PM
uh he meant he had to go and pick up his Ds.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 10:27 PM
the dinner is great idea, kevin. shes already planning on it. you're stuck, now.

Sooooooo.............

get a baby sitter.

and tell your wife, you are looking forward to this we haven't been on a date in years.

get a baby sitter. NO KIDS. she walked right into this one.

your brother in law's from out of town right? take them to Billy Bob's Texas. set him up with one of those softball girls from the summer or some other girl you know. double date. two guys two girls no kids in the worlds largest honky tonk.

you got some social interaction experience the other night. bet you didnt talk to that bar fly about relationships and working things out. so treat your ex-wife the same. fun fun fun. youre so f'ing easy. im gonna get me some fun.

You a real Cowboy? Know how to do 2-step?

Get your wife drunk, and get her to ride the bull like Debra Winger. Things went south with the OM. She wouldnt want anything to do with you if things were good. she owes you a birthday present.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 10:50 PM
I have read some funny things on this site but the "worlds largest honky tonk" has to be one of the funniest.

Kevin, if you actually say and do that I will fly to Dallas, NOT shake the sh*t out of you (well, I still might but not for 15 min. like I originally said, probably more like 5 min) and still take you dancing.

If you get your wife tanked and she does get on a bull we will need photos and I do hope you plan to use that photo on your holiday greeting cards this year.

The last time I was in Los Angeles for work my hotel had a clear view of a bar with a bull in it. I laughed myself sick watching all the drunk fools try and ride it.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 10:57 PM
She won't get drunk around me. My BIL wouldn't have anything to do with another woman. And my W definitely will not go dancing and riding a bull with us. That was funny though.

Billy Bobs might be the place to eat though.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 11:10 PM
Ok CityGirl,

This is the second time you have threatened to fly down here and shake me and then go dancing with me. lol.

Let me know when your flight is booked. Maybe we will see if we can get you on the bull. lol.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 11:14 PM
I'll hold the video camera.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 11:17 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
She won't get drunk around me. My BIL wouldn't have anything to do with another woman. And my W definitely will not go dancing and riding a bull with us. That was funny though.


oh. i'd get out of it then if i was you.
take the chick from the bar.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 11:27 PM
Quote:
oh. i'd get out of it then if i was you.
take the chick from the bar.


SM, you are to much.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 11:29 PM
Dang this is a fast moving thread!
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/11/09 11:37 PM
I remember going to a honky tonk (I think it was called the Yellow Rose) in Corpus Christi when I was in the Coast Guard. It was like I had 2 left feet trying to do some of the western dances. I had no desire to ride the mechanical bull.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 03:42 AM
I have never been on the mechanical bull either nor do I have a desire to as well.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 12:47 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
oh. i'd get out of it then if i was you.
take the chick from the bar.


SM, you are to much.

Kevin


its about showing your wife you are a brand new kinda guy.

you might remember,
Leave them alone, and they'll come home. Wagging their tails behind them....
Posted By: mindfull Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 12:51 PM
Hijack.

Hiya Steve McQueen! Been gone for a bit re-grouping, etc... Saw your name, and had to wave!
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 01:41 PM
SM, That is freakin fantastic. If Kevin could pull that off, that would be the biggest 180 of his life, and sure to leave his STBXW dazed and confused!!
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 02:11 PM
Got my coffee in hand waiting to see what happens....
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 03:07 PM
Quote:
Got my coffee in hand waiting to see what happens....


Seriously?

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 03:08 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
Got my coffee in hand waiting to see what happens....


Seriously?

Kevin


Heck Ya! smile
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 03:24 PM
Geez...

Well, the latest I have is that W is going to attend C for the girls this next session. The C wants to talk to W about her interactions with the kids. D11 has really been verbally going after D7 for every little thing which is something that the C is working on D11 with. W kept trying to convince me last night that our separated situation had nothing to do with D11's actions and anger toward everyone. Funny thing is, I didn't say anything about it. Must be her guilt talking trying to convince herself that this has no affect on the kids.

Today is grandparents day at the school. W's mom was supposed to eat lunch with D7 today. They registered and built up D7's hopes. Last night W tells me to let D7 know that her grandma for the 3rd time in a row is canceling yet again on D7. D7 cried and said she always does this. The sad thing is that she does. She always makes sure she is there for anything regarding D11 or her other grandchild, but D7 always gets slighted. I told W that her mom needs to be the one and call D7 to tell her, but her mom wouldn't do it. Her mom apparently has a job interview this morning which would normally be fine except that she always backs out on D7 for most occasions. So it really didn't matter to D7.

My BIL may be coming in on Sunday now instead of Saturday. So I am waiting to hear on that.

Busy day at work today.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 03:34 PM
Quote:
you might remember,
Leave them alone, and they'll come home. Wagging their tails behind them....


Except I am the one that got kicked out of the home. She is already home. I want to go home. But yes, I agree, and I am looking to pull off the biggest 180 of my life.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 03:43 PM
Why did you do your W's dirty work. It was your W's mom that had to cancel on your daughter so it should have been your W that told D7.

How could you have handled that in a different manner?

Personally I would have said to your W.... "W, since this was an activity with YOUR mom I think it's best you tell daughter about the change of plans. I prefer not to be involved with YOUR family plans at this juncture so hang on a second and I will put D7 on the phone".

Her mom flaked and your W essentially told you to not only tell your daughter but left you to pick up the pieces of a heartbroken child when none of this had anything to do with you!

Do you have a webcam? Does your dad have a webcam? If not it might be something to think about. They aren't that expensive. Ask your dad to set aside some time this weekend so your little girl and have her grandparents lunch. Make it special. If your dad doesn't have a computer see if he can go to a friends house or Internet cafe.

Nip this in the bud NOW - do NOT do your W's dirty work. If your W's mom won't have a thing to do with you why in the world would you even consider telling your D7 the bad news?

What crap. Tell us again why you think your W is so wonderful? In the past week alone she mocked you when you did as she said and ONLY spoke about the children by saying "seriously?" when you asked for an official proposal regarding custody for the holidays. She invited herself to a dinner with YOUR family without even having the respect to ask you if felt okay about that AND she had you do her dirty work regarding the grandparents lunch. All that happened in one week.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 03:51 PM
Originally Posted By: CityGirl
What crap. Tell us again why you think your W is so wonderful?


She does come with a bag of chips? i hope.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 04:15 PM
CG,

I didn't think it was mine or W's job to break D7's heart yet again. But since her mom wouldn't do it, I did it.

I love the idea about lunch with my dad via webcam. I am going to suggest that to my dad. He will do it. He loves the girls. He is a great grandpa to them.

Quote:
Tell us again why you think your W is so wonderful?


She used to be wonderful. I don't qualify her as that right now. No chips come with her. At least not for me. Maybe for the other guys. Last night she was telling me how much money she lost due to her being sick for 4 days and so she is looking for another job and then will help contribute more to the C fees. I didn't say anything. I really don't want to hear it when she makes almost twice what I make.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 04:38 PM
So, if your dad bailed on your daughter you would have your W break the news if your dad wouldn't?

Your W's mom - your W's job if her own mother doesn't even have the courtesy to contact D7.

IMO of course.

This is one example where you could have stood up to your W in a kind but firm way...."W, I understand YOU didn't break plans with D7 but your Mom did therefore I feel it necessary that you speak to D7 if your Mom will not".

Also, you did a good job not saying anything about the C'ing fees to your W. I do strongly suggest though you keep a log with receipts of all the sessions you paid for. Not to throw it in your W's face but should custody issues come up if and when divorce proceedings begin this record will be helpful to you. If your W makes twice what you do but somehow you managed to get your kids the help they *so* needed on a far less salary that speaks volumes about your dedication to parenting.

I am sure it feels like we are always coming down on you but you still give your W too much leeway when it comes to certain things. Now that you are co-parents *there* are certain jobs one of you have more obligation to than the other. You take care of the issues w/your extended family and let your W take care of the issues w/her extended family. Right now they should not be mingled at all IMO.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 04:42 PM
Ok, turns out my BIL is coming in on Saturday at 1:30. So I will have to uninvite my W today. I was hoping to get away with the excuse he isn't coming in til Sunday since he was looking at changing times. But oh well, no biggie.

W called me to ask how D7 was doing this morning. I said she is doing ok. W said she is pissed off at her mom for doing this again to D7. W said her mom didn't even call her, she got a text message saying to tell D7 she wouldn't make the grandparents lunch.

Last night when told about this I sent a text to W saying her mom needs to tell her, not us. W didn't respond. Then I finally told D7. Then I let W know that D7 has been informed and then W was all of a sudden available to talk about it and she bashed her mom and her family. I did not participate in the bashing. I only discussed D7's reaction and feelings.

W said she is going to take D7 to her favorite place to eat tonight. Thats good, but it doesn't make up for the fact that D7 is doing quite well considering what she doesn't have a choice in with us being separated and yet she is still getting constantly slighted by her own grandma and D11 on top of what she is having to deal with.

W tells me that her and her mom had been arguing all day yesterday and then that she also gets slighted and her sister does not. I'm sitting here thinking, yes, but you are at least an adult. This is a 7 year old girl who just wants to be loved and accepted like everyone else.

Frusturating.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 04:45 PM
Quote:
So, if your dad bailed on your daughter you would have your W break the news if your dad wouldn't?

Your W's mom - your W's job if her own mother doesn't even have the courtesy to contact D7.


If my dad were to do something like that, I would expect him to tell D7. But if he didn't, I would tell D7. The nice thing is, my dad would never do what W's mom does.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 04:51 PM
You are missing the point.

Not that you can go back and change things now but you should have told your W no to the dinner y'day as now it may come off as you are getting back at her about the grandparents lunch.

And the next time she starts bitching about her family don't engage in the conversation AT ALL. Simply say, "W, I am sure it's tough to have such strife within your family but I would prefer to stay out of it and not hear about it anymore" If she keeps babbling on let her know that you have set that boundary and if she won't respect it then you will be ending the call.

See, your W still uses you when she needs to vent (EX: her family, her crappy paychecks) but any other time the conversation is dictated by her and her dictation is KIDS ONLY. She can't have it both ways and you will need to point that out to her by setting boundaries. Validate, set boundaries and move forward. You are no longer her sounding board or bitching post to her problems as per her request.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 05:01 PM
Do you think I should push the issue and tell W that her mom owes D7 an apology or just let it drop? Right now D7 has every reason to resent her grandma and W even agrees. The thing is, even if D7's grandma does apologize to her, the trend will just continue. It has never changed. Maybe there is no point in saying that the grandma owes D7 an apology because it may just build up false hope to D7 that her grandma actually cares about her and neither me nor W have seen any reason to believe she does.

You are right CG, I cannot allow W to use me as her sounding board anymore since she wants kid only talk. I have to get better at cutting her off when the conversation leaves the kids.

Kevin
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 05:03 PM
CityGirl, I like your style! Keep it comin'
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 05:09 PM
Let the mom thing go...not your family, not your problem.

She will try and cake eat as long as YOU let her. Its hard, I know...been there and still there. My exh loves to be my buddy and then go back to his immoral life. I need to put a stop to that.

Go read my thread. I could use the input from others as well as show everyone where letting someone cake eat gets you...NOWHERE!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 05:09 PM
W just sent me an IM saying she is going to go have lunch with D7 today. That is at least good that W is trying to make it up to her.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 05:10 PM
Drop the grandmother issue with your W, D7 and in your own mind. You cannot control what the grandmother does and whatever R the grandmother has with your D7 is not for you to try and control, repair or meddle in. Tell your W you don't want to discuss in any further or hear about it. You can however encourage your D7 to talk about her feelings regarding this issue with the C. That would be the healthiest way to deal with it IMO.

There is no "making up for it". Since your dad is not local when a grandparent event does come up include him, even if via webcam. Not to "make up" for your W's flaky mom but to INCLUDE the other grandparents.

It's not so much about "cutting your W off" as it is about setting firm boundaries just as she has. If she chooses not to respect the boundaries you set THEN you can end the call/talk and let her know why.

If you keep doing this on a consistent basis your W's life will become very tough but then again, that is what she wanted so let her deal with her own stuff. My H still comes to me about his mom's drinking problem. I do feel bad about it because I know what it feels like to have an alcoholic parent, it's not easy and I know it's embarrassing to talk to just anybody about it. I always say the same thing..."H, I understand how tough it can be, I hope it all works out for the best". I don't suggest HE get counseling on how to deal with it (he should), I don't suggest Al-Anon (he should be there weekly) I just validate, let him know I can relate but I do nothing more. He wanted to be on his own with his GF then let her be his "rock".
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 05:11 PM
Hypothetical question for Kevin...

If your W asked you to move back in today, would you do it?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 05:14 PM
W just IM'd me wanting to know what I am doing on Saturday up til 1pm. Ugg... I haven't responded.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 05:17 PM
Quote:
If your W asked you to move back in today, would you do it?


Emotionally I would want to. For my kids benefit I would want to. Would it be the smartest thing in the world to do right now? Probably not.

Kevin
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 05:23 PM
Your answer should be a spark to understand that your not where you need to be.

Quote:
Emotionally I would want to.


Then your not detached. Your co-dependant. Why would you want to put your emotions at risk for someone who doesn't want, nor respect you currently?

Quote:
For my kids benefit I would want to.


It would be BAD for your kids for you to do so currently. Do you see that? Doing things 'for' your kids like that is not good at this time. You should be a strong, whole, independent K4d and THAT will show your kids more than anything you can 'do' for them.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 05:25 PM
W told me she was taking a training class to co manage for a destination imagination which is a team that D7 will be on. So she wanted me to watch the kids saturday morning. I told her I have plans.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 05:26 PM
Iwantittowork,

That is why I said it would not be smart. I realize that and pointed it out.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 05:26 PM
How many times has your W disturbed you today at work via text?

Wait a bit and text her back and say "W, I am working and very busy, please refrain from texting me during business hours unless it's an emergency. If something child related needs to be discussed we can do so after work. Thanks"
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 05:32 PM
CG,

A couple times this morning. And of course, it only has to do with what she needs or feels or wants. The next time she calls, or texts, or IM's I am just going to tell her I am busy at work.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 05:38 PM
Quote:
Your answer should be a spark to understand that your not where you need to be.


Quote:
Quote:
Emotionally I would want to.



Then your not detached. Your co-dependant. Why would you want to put your emotions at risk for someone who doesn't want, nor respect you currently?


iwantittowork,

I do love her despite everything that has happened and is happening. What is best for my kids for us to ultimately get to a healthy M and family. Right now that is not realistic for today. But you also have to start somewhere at some point right? And if she is ready for me to come back, I would be highly untrusting of her. But reconciliations have to start somewhere and build up.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 05:43 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
If your W asked you to move back in today, would you do it?


Emotionally I would want to. For my kids benefit I would want to. Would it be the smartest thing in the world to do right now? Probably not.

Kevin

I think you need to develop an attitude where you would be open to her proving over time why she wants you back. She would need be the one to convince you that your marriage is worth saving and that she has redeemed herself.

But the question was hypothetical. Right now she is happy on her own and it is you that needs to learn to be happy without your W in your life.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 05:47 PM
Quote:
I think you need to develop an attitude where you would be open to her proving over time why she wants you back. She would need be the one to convince you that your marriage is worth saving and that she has redeemed herself.

But the question was hypothetical. Right now she is happy on her own and it is you that needs to learn to be happy without your W in your life.


It is hypothetical and your statement is true about needing to find happiness without her. But as far as saving the marriage being worth it. I believe it is. But yes, she would need to prove to me that she has redeemed herself.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 06:05 PM
Kevin, what do you owe your WAW? That is the root of your BOUNDARIES ISSUE. You NEED to tell yourself that you have suffered enough. You are done apologizing. You have tried to make things work and she has not.

Once you FORGIVE YOURSELF then you can start setting BOUNDARIES for YOURSELF and YOUR GIRLS.

What happened to ignoring your W when she IM or TXT? Dont ENABLE her ERRACTIC BEHAVIOR by immediantly responding. Think YOU are the CAPTAIN of the ship why are you letting her steer?

The "ship" btw is YOUR LIFE...
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 06:08 PM
Also, think about how annoyed your W would be if YOU texted her all day long while she was working. You would get an earful from her so why are you allowing it. You can't wait until next time to set your boundary. Set it now.

And I must disagree w/your philosophy about reconciling. In a way you remind me of my H. It is not reconcile or nothing. While this is just my personal opinion and perhaps not the popular line of thought I think there has to be some middle ground to see if reconciling is even an option.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 06:11 PM
PMA,

I don't apologize anymore. I have finished with that. I have tried to make things work. She has not. You are correct.

I used to think I owe my W my unconditional love no matter what. I'm not so sure anymore. It is something I struggle with now.

I have forgiven myself. While I regret my past actions, I have also apologized for them more than once. That is enough.

Quote:
What happened to ignoring your W when she IM or TXT? Dont ENABLE her ERRACTIC BEHAVIOR by immediantly responding. Think YOU are the CAPTAIN of the ship why are you letting her steer?


The conversations start out about the kids and then shift. I just have to get better about cutting it off and keeping myself from shifting it as well.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 06:13 PM
Quote:
Also, think about how annoyed your W would be if YOU texted her all day long while she was working. You would get an earful from her so why are you allowing it. You can't wait until next time to set your boundary. Set it now.


She would definitely give me an earful. She has everytime I ever bugged her at work.

Quote:
And I must disagree w/your philosophy about reconciling. In a way you remind me of my H. It is not reconcile or nothing. While this is just my personal opinion and perhaps not the popular line of thought I think there has to be some middle ground to see if reconciling is even an option.


You could be right.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 06:24 PM
I think a "light" is coming on slowly. You dont OWE her anything. And it's time you take back CONTROL of YOUR LIFE.

Damn right! Be tough. Respectful BUT TOUGH. Time to show TOUGH LOVE Kev. I agree w everything CG is saying. Set your BOUNDARIES NOW. No talk other then about the girls. Start showing her that you demand RESPECT. "I would appreciate it that you dont bother me at work... I am having dinner with my brother on sat. period. " 180's Kev. If you are not used to being CONFIDENT and DEMANDING RESPECT and SETTING BOUNDARIES then do it. She might be attracted to you LEADERSHIP. Who knows. Then you can decide if she's GOOD ENOUGH for YOU.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 07:12 PM
Quote:
I think a "light" is coming on slowly. You dont OWE her anything. And it's time you take back CONTROL of YOUR LIFE.

Damn right! Be tough. Respectful BUT TOUGH. Time to show TOUGH LOVE Kev. I agree w everything CG is saying. Set your BOUNDARIES NOW. No talk other then about the girls. Start showing her that you demand RESPECT. "I would appreciate it that you dont bother me at work... I am having dinner with my brother on sat. period. " 180's Kev. If you are not used to being CONFIDENT and DEMANDING RESPECT and SETTING BOUNDARIES then do it. She might be attracted to you LEADERSHIP. Who knows. Then you can decide if she's GOOD ENOUGH for YOU.


I have nothing to add to this as I agree with it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 07:46 PM
I did ask how lunch went with D7.

K4D: How did lunch go?
W: great. she was sad til she saw me. it was good. she's pretty pissed at mom.
W: i can't blame her
W: mom just sent me this text... can you believe it????
W: "I'm concerned about you. I know things are changing for you and not in a positive way. That's why we need to stick together as a family. luv u."
W: i'm not responding yet... because the only thing i can say is "you don't know what the f*ck is going on with me and i'll keep it that way, thank you very much. AND for the record, the only thing my family has ever taught me is that i can rely on myself and only myself.
K4D: I'm glad you were able to eat lunch with D7. I'm sure it made her day
K4D: I don't know anything that goes on in the family anymore so I just don't have much to offer advice wise
W: not seeking any. and nothing has changed in the family. mom & stepdad are best friends with sister & sisters boyfriend. and me and the girls are usually ignored, which i prefer.
K4D: I see

I didn't totally shut W off, but I didn't really dig into it either regarding her family.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 07:48 PM
I have to shut her down, but why is she now starting to vent things to me where as she wouldn't before? What is going on here.

I can't put anymore thought into this.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 07:55 PM
All of that could have been avoided had you NOT pursued her and IM'd her about the lunch.

You easily could have asked your D7 how she enjoyed lunch.

You say you can't take this anymore but you are the one that starts it far too often. You can't seem to grasp the difference between "cutting her off" and setting a BOUNDARY.

You pursued with IM to ask about a lunch that has NOTHING to do with you. You allowed your W to ramble on about her family crap and then went as far as to say that you don't know what goes on in her family so you have no advice. Why would you want to know or give advice to such a matter since you have no contact w/these people and you aren't even allowed around them?

Let your W call a friend or one of her OM's to vent her crap but stop thinking if you are "there" just a little bit it will make a difference. It *will* make a difference it just won't be a positive one.

THINK before you do something. There was no point at ALL in your IM'ing your W. None. And don't say it was to be sure D7 was okay. You and D7 could have talked about the lunch at another time and you didn't need to ask your W about it.

Geesh!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 07:56 PM
I admit, I have a tough time shutting her down especially now that she is venting to me and I don't know why she is venting to me now. It is a little confusing. If she doesn't care what I think or want anything to do with me, why is she venting to me lately?

Is it because I have finally started doing my own thing and blowing her off with plans? Does she feel like she is losing control and is trying to retain it? Or what? I don't know.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 07:57 PM
how about you respond to her badgering Instant Messages with:

"Pooky, there is something I need to get off my chest. I have a girlfriend."

She is treating you like a gay friend, and you are allowing it.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 07:58 PM
I guess I was just anxious to know because D7 had been so upset and I won't see D7 again until Sunday evening. I guess I could have called her later and asked.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 08:00 PM
WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When she dumped you and forced you to leave your own home and demanded the only communication you have is about the children she lost all rights to talk/vent her problems or issues to you.

Instead of setting boundaries you make it about "cutting her off" which is not the kind way to detach. Again, all the focus goes back to your W. You think she had any focus on you when she was prancing around Florida with OM? You think she had any focus on you when she was riding bikes and playing with guns with older OM? No.

When she needs to vent about her crazy family or money she calls you. When she needs a favor she calls you. And you let her. So don't complain because you CAN stop this but you DONT.

Venting is not a sign of anything other than her knowing she can talk your ear off when it suits her. I bet you 20.00 if you had a problem with YOUR family at 9pm on a Sat. night when she was headed out for the evening she wouldn't even take your call.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 08:01 PM
Quote:
how about you respond to her badgering Instant Messages with:

"Pooky, there is something I need to get off my chest. I have a girlfriend."

She is treating you like a gay friend, and you are allowing it.


SM, I guess I didn't think about her treating me in that way. I don't have a girlfriend. And I think if I said I did, that would totally destroy any remaining credibility with her being as how I have said I will continue to stand and further justify her doing what she is doing in her mind.

Granted, human emotions and desires take over sometimes. It is hard to be completely innocent for the rest of ones life in a situation like this.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 08:03 PM
Quote:
Venting is not a sign of anything other than her knowing she can talk your ear off when it suits her. I bet you 20.00 if you had a problem with YOUR family at 9pm on a Sat. night when she was headed out for the evening she wouldn't even take your call.


You are right CG. She wouldn't. She would tell me if it is not about the kids, don't bother her.

I am not engaging as much as I used to. But I have to set the boundaries and stand firm on them. ugg.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 08:07 PM
So when is that dancing and bull riding going to happen CG?

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 08:09 PM
You should not be engaging at all. I don't know if you are trying to get me annoyed beyond belief and that back peddling you are doing or if you are just that dense.

I don't want to hear "ugg", "cut her off", "its tough" or anything else that even remotely alludes to those phrases one more time.

You have a blackberry, computer and phone yet you HAD to IM your W about a lunch that had nothing to do with you because you wont SEE your D7 until Sunday. If you knew your W was going to lunch in place of the stoooopid grandma what exactly were you so anxious about? Nothing. You just wanted to contact your W when you easily could have waited a few hours and called D7 yourself.

Go to the corner and stand there until somebody says you can come out.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 08:14 PM
CG,

I honestly wanted to know how D7 was doing because I was concerned about D7. I should have waited, but I didn't want to wait to know. It had nothing to do with wanting to contact W.

Can't seem to get an answer on that dancing and bull riding thing. lol.

Kevin
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 08:17 PM
Originally Posted By: CityGirl
You should not be engaging at all. I don't know if you are trying to get me annoyed beyond belief and that back peddling you are doing or if you are just that dense.


Who says it's only one of those options?
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 08:17 PM
It's like watching a monkey hump a football.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 08:18 PM
When you start setting boundaries I will let you know about the dancing and bull riding.

'Cause if I am going to get on a mechanical bull I better have a damn good reason to be doing so.

And guess what, sometime we have to wait even though we don't want to. Yes, your D7 was sad and let down but she didn't combust and waiting a few hours wouldn't have changed a thing about the LUNCH or how D7 was feeling but it DID make you pursue a conversation with your W.

Get back to your corner.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 08:20 PM
PMA,

A monkey humping a football??? Where did you come up with that one?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 08:21 PM
Quote:
Get back to your corner.


Seriously?

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 08:27 PM
Do I strike you as the type that is NOT serious?

I just got the best news - my H finally signed the agreement, his attny signed it and it will be at my attny's office tomorrow for me to sign. I got everything I wanted and needed. It will be filed on Monday and our trial, which was set to start on Tues. is now OFFICIALLY adjourned. As of Monday Nov. 16th my H and I will be officially separated in the eyes of NY and this 21 month legal battle will be OVER.

DO NOT RUIN MY HAPPY DAY!
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 08:28 PM
A buddy of mine always used that expression when he was describing some crazy $hit goin down.

Sounds like something Ross Perot would say huh?
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 08:30 PM
Congrats! CG. Bittersweet but you have come along way. Enjoy the new you. Someday someone will be lucky enough to share it with you.

God Bless. PMA
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 08:30 PM
Quote:
DO NOT RUIN MY HAPPY DAY!


Conrats CG. I won't. I am glad you are getting some relief and closure. Good deal.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 08:31 PM
Quote:
Sounds like something Ross Perot would say huh?


Ya.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 08:38 PM
I don't think I have any reason to hear from W again for a while so that is positive.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 08:51 PM
Wow...I leave for a few hours and there is 4 or 5 pages to read!

Ok, here is my 2 cents for what it is worth. I see alot of me in you and how you respond to W. Tell me if I am way off base here. I get bashed on my thread (thank you by the way cuz it helps) for being too open with exh. He wants to still be my buddy when it suits him. He wants to be able to come and go here when he wants to see baby. He calls me for advice about his other daughters or just life. When he feels me straying away he gets the ILY's and I miss yous out so it reels me back in. Yet, HE STILL IS DOING THE SAME BEHAVIORS! Nothing has changed.

He (like your W) is a cake eater. He doesn't want me to go too far just in case Plan A doesn't work. He still wants to be my buddy as it relieves his guilt. If we are friends it doesn't make what he has done so bad right?

Why do I put up with it? Because deep down I still have a fantasy of our life working out together. That someday this total jerk will come to his senses and realize what he has. If I cut him off completely and enforce the boundaries he will get mad, he will turn to whatever woman he is with this week, he will think I am a bit** and never change his mind. Honestly, when I get the nice texts saying ILY I do take a few steps back and have that "What if" mindset.

This guy has done horrible things to me! He doesn't deserve a second chance. So what if he gets mad at me? You need to think the same way.
Posted By: BobbiJo Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 09:12 PM
Kev

I know we have different views on some of this stuff, but for what it's worth:

My pastor has told me, and I have read in 'boundaries' books, that

you can love someone unconditionally, and still decide that you cannot have a relationship (M) with them.

Not that I am encouraging that. I hope your M is restored down the road if/when you and your wife are both ready for that.

But you mentioned something a few pages back about thinking you loved her unconditionally and now you aren't sure...you can still love her but decide that the R is/was not good for you...
Posted By: BobbiJo Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/12/09 09:13 PM
Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
It's like watching a monkey hump a football.


This sounds like something they would say on an SNL spoof of Dan Rather. He was always throwing out random catch phrases on the news...
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 02:50 PM
Originally Posted By: BobbiJo
Kev

you can love someone unconditionally, and still decide that you cannot have a relationship (M) with them.



I have heard the same sort of thing. When it comes to my exh I was told "Love him from afar, but make sure your boundaries are in place".

Kevin, I hope you have a good weekend.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 03:08 PM
Hypothetically speaking,

If I were to decide to file for D on my W, would it be better for me to let her know in advance and give her the option to sign the waiver of service, or just not say anything and have her served?

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 03:25 PM
I was polite and gave mine the papers personally. She had 10 days to acknowlege receipt or then she would be served by the Sheriff.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 03:40 PM
Think about how blindsided you felt when your W dropped the bomb on you. It hurt and shocked you. So, keeping that in mind if you are now prepared to file for divorce I would let her know AFTER you filed and tell her she can expect to be served (or however it works in Texas) on xx day.

If you feel the need to tell her prior to filing I would make it short and simple and just let her know that you feel all possibilities have been exhausted to reconcile the M and you have had papers drawn up and will be executing them tomorrow and she can expect to receive them by xx date. Let her know that you have been counseled in depth by an attny and your goal is to find a fair and reasonable way to dissolve the marriage/finances/assets and find the best possible solutions for custody for the children then END THE TALK.

She will not like this but if you really are ready to do this and it's not a ploy of some sort on your part then be prepared to be strong and follow through with it. Be kind, be detached and wrap your head around the mindset of this being about business.

Is this something you are considering? If so, why?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 03:47 PM
It is not a ploy CG. I think I am running to my wits end on this. Last night we talked because D11 got in trouble again with W. Then W tells me she is at the mall getting a gown to go to the Margarita Ball which is a big upscale charity event here in DFW. I had told her previously that I had 2 tickets which are hard to come by and I would hope she would be interested in going with me since she had never been and wanted to go. Of course she said no back then and I released the tickets.

Also, November 21st the night of the ball is the one year anniversary of her officially sleeping with OM for the first time. A date I can't seem to forget. So between that being the anniversary and the Ball on the same night, I think I just kind of am at my wits end with this whole M. I don't see really any chance of anything changing with her.

It is a serious consideration at this point. I don't want to be hasty, but I am really thinking about being done in some aspects with this M and moving on.

I know this goes against everything I have stood for. But I think I also didn't realize how hard this would be emotionally to do forever.

I haven't decided yet, but I have really been thinking about it since last night.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 03:55 PM
It is not an easy decision to come to. I am going to think about it over the weekend. I was just wanted some advice on how to go about it if I decide to go ahead and file next week.

Plus, I don't know why she hasn't refiled yet other than she is worried about money and waiting to build up money and hire a L to really go after me. If that is the case, why wait?

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 03:57 PM
Did last weekend with the girl at the bar have anything to do with the change in softening your stance on your M?

Hey man, I can totally understand about wanting it to be done.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 03:58 PM
Do not be hasty and do not let emotions dictate your actions.

Filing for a D is not the way to handle being at your wits end.

Take a few days to think about it when you are not so emotionally charged then make a decision.

Talk to your C, talk to your sponsor, write a list of pros and cons and be smart, not emotional.

Things change and if you no longer care to stand for your marriage that is just fine. We all have our limits.
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 04:01 PM
I agree...take your time and make sure its what YOU want. You have been through alot and whats a few more days?

I would tell her after you file that she will be recieving papers soon. That way she is not blindsided, and you are being honest.

There is nothing saying that you cannot change your mind even after the D is in process or final. If you feel you need to start the closure process then do it.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 04:06 PM
Quote:
Did last weekend with the girl at the bar have anything to do with the change in softening your stance on your M?


No KerryK. I will probably never see that lady again. I am not pursuing her. I think last night just really started making me realize that maybe this really is over and maybe no point in delaying the inevitable.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 04:13 PM
I see my priest tonight. I see my C Tuesday. My BIL is coming in tomorrow which I know he will be against me considering this. But he also has said he doesn't know how he would be able to handle what I am going through also.

I will give it the next few days of really weighing the pros and cons and discussing it. It is not a decision I want to make at all. It was hard really considering it last night and this morning. But I really think unless some kind of miracle occurs that I am done living in limbo land like this.

I will think it over more.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 04:15 PM
If I come to this decision, I will have to think about how I tell my kids I can no longer do this. I will need the C's help with that one.

Kevin
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 04:17 PM
Kevin,

If you decide to do it, I'd give her the option of signing the waiver of service. I think it's the civil thing to do. And the best way to deal with anger is kindness.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 04:30 PM
Thanks everyone. I will take everything into consideration while I think this through for the next few days.

Kevin
Posted By: Deep Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 04:47 PM
Kevin, I know many things have been said in your sitch (all 164 pages and counting), some pretty hard knocks, which are sometimes justified.

Some would call it obstinacy, some would find it admirable, but call it what you may, you have always tried to maintain your stance that saving the M was the best, perhaps the only option.

I can only feel for you to be at this stage now. You must be drained to be posting like this at all. I'm sorry things are what they are now. If you do decide to go ahead and file, it's not a failure or a weakness. As others have said, it's about accepting your limits, and we're all only too human. Just thought I would say that.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 04:57 PM
Thanks Deep.

I am drained. I appreciate your kind words.

Kevin
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 05:03 PM
Kevin, I'd add one other thing.

Once you've decided what to do, let it lie for a few days, and see if you are at peace with the decision before you take any action. You are not working to a deadline.
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 05:14 PM
Exactly, time is on your side. And remember the Lord will be with you no matter what happens.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 08:21 PM
My dad and sister in law are both in full support of whatever decision I make at this point. Neither are for D, but both can understand this situation since there doesn't appear to be any ending in site with W and other guys.

I will think it through the next couple of days, talk to my priest and C. Then I will make a decision and then sit on that decision for a couple of days.

Thanks for the advice all.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/13/09 10:47 PM
The main problem is that after all this time you've never detached yourself from her. That's why you feel like you have to do all or nothing.

So are you no longer "standing"?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/14/09 05:46 AM
Stuck,

Really, I have to ask. What is your purpose in posting to me? Is it to call me out and expose the fact that I am not the end all be all, which I don't claim to be and never have by a long shot? Or is it that you are trying to push me to be better?

I really have a hard time telling with you sometimes.

Kevin
Posted By: BobbiJo Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/14/09 06:06 AM
Hey,

Just fyi, in my case I told my H I was going to file and I gave him the papers myself. This was after a 'discussion' where he started talking about not improving his house so the value wouldn't go up before the divorce, not contributing to the 401k so he didn't have to share more $ with me, etc...

Even then, I filed to protect myself, but I still gave him a heads-up and served him myself. But tons of people have their spouses served, too. If it comes to that, do what you believe is the right thing to do.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/14/09 03:15 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
What do you call an LBS who won't listen, learn or improve themself? Divorced.


KerryK,

I'm sure there is a point to this quote. I am sure you are saying that I am not learning, listening or improving myself. But I am.

Kevin


I find it hard to find a point except that they are frustrated and expressing themselves in a not particularly helpful way.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/14/09 03:21 PM
Don't confuse support from your family with validation. I feel you are seeking validation from *somebody* to go ahead and file. And really the *only* validation you need to make such a choice must come from within.

You have proclaimed yourself a "stander". You have been staunch and vehement in that stance. I am not saying it's a good or bad thing, it's simply what you have shared with us up to this point. Sometimes though, the problem with being so staunch and vehement in your stance (and this applies to all areas of life) is it prevents any growth or evolution to the situation. Perhaps by standing and being so vocal and firm about it you actually prevented *something* else from happening.

You are frustrated and tired. I get it. I think we all do. Perhaps now though you can see why many of us tried to gently lead you to open your mind and thought process to be more flexible about what *must* happen in your marriage.

If you are ready to file for a D and that decision is made minus emotion from a certain exchange or event then by all means, go ahead and do it. It just might be the BEST thing you have ever done for yourself.

Yes, your W treats you like crap but with all due respect she does that because you allow her to. A D won't change that, it simply means you won't be married to her anymore.

For a long time, well over a year I was as staunch as they come in my thought process of the WAS filing for the D. They want it, they do the dirty work, they pay for it and suffer any counter suit that is returned their way. My thought was I would comply as the law told me I had to but that was it. Looking back I am not sure I would have done anything different but now I see how perhaps opening my mind to a new way of thinking may have saved me from a 21 month legal battle.

In a way I think you felt that if you were a "stander" long enough eventually your W would come around. And it just doesn't work that way. As you continued to stand you also kept doing things the same way except this time you gave it the title of "stander" so it sounded good but in reality not much had changed. And your W could see that.

I don't think you are detached at all from your W. And a legal document will not help you detach nor will it change the dynamic between the two of you. You can change you and it *might* change the dynamic (or might not). I just don't want you to have any hope that a divorce will "wake her up". There are ways to gain back your personal power and in your case I am not sure a D is one of them.

That being said if you are done then you are done. And there isn't a thing wrong with that. Nobody should have to live in a situation for years and years as many of us do. But really we have nobody to blame but ourselves as we have the power to get out of this situation and the only way out isn't a D.

The point of all of this? Use this as a lesson that sometimes in life we have to be more flexible in our beliefs. That is not to say we have to change them but often times we do have to expand them a bit. And once we do expand them often times things do change.

I know you are struggling to gain some control over this situation but as you know you can only control you. A D will not give you control. It will simply dissolve your legal marriage and if you are ready to do that, then do it. As I said, we all have our limits.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/14/09 03:38 PM
Kev,

Just take your time. No rush. Take it in and give it time.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/14/09 09:09 PM
1) The purpose in giving her the chance to waive service or choose where to be served, is so she won't be embarrassed at work or shamed at home -especially if the girls are there. If you KNOW she'll be served at home and you have the kids, maybe that's fine. If not, what the heck is the harm in asking her which she'd prefer? From my experience, it's considered discourteous to not let the person choose where they want to be served, and since you have children, and she has a career (which is also in your interests to protect) you should offer her the choice of where to get the papers or to waive service altogether. She'll have to sign for the waiver anyhow.
2) I don't care about you meeting the ow. Actually, I pretty much agree with what gucci said and that's unusual. What I wish to God you had learned is that you have been way too judgemental in the past about 2nd M's, and calling people who date or marry previously marrieds, "whores" or "losers" or worse. That's what really bothered me (& CG commented on that). How harshly you judged others. Learn from that and stop seeing the world so black and white.

3) the drinking bugs me b/c you do exactly what nearly all alcoholics do when they relapse; they don't go out and get wasted the first time they fall off the wagon. Most of the time, they fool themselves and "control" their drinking temporarily, and sometimes for months...and then they do it some more and then it damages a job, reduces ambition, hurts a relationship or causes an accident. Your previous drinking did all these things, it hurt your career, created havoc in your marriage (to the point where your w referred to you as an "alcoholic"). You were also an apathetic father by your own admission, b/c you liked to drink when you got home, and you didn't like making hard choices, but preferred leaving those up to your w. Drinking makes that abdication easier I suppose. If none of those reasons are enough for you to stay away from booze like the plague, then what's to say?

4) please don't say you "only had 2 drinks" AND that you are "working the 12 steps" in the same paragraph. Drink or don't drink. But don't pretend to be in the program when you are not practicing it. Having 2 sponsors (WHY?) and not calling either before you took a drink, being in a bar in the first place...etc.

Like I said, if you want to keep drinking, go ahead. But don't offend those of us who actually live and practice the 12 steps, by saying the rest of what you said. It's too bad you don't "get it" though. I mean, actually understanding what it means to DO the steps, (to my knowlege you have not done them or we'd know) would have helped you with setting boundaries, learning self love and self respect and improving as a person, so much. The 4th step and taking a moral inventory and making amends to those whom we've harmed, is a powerful experience...you never got there. Oh well.

Finally, You and your w both have a lot of growing to do before either one of you is ready to enter "piecing" which is mandatory before a real reconciliation could take place. Her "redeeming herself" presupposes you doing the same and from what she wrote about you months ago and her complaints with you...have you really improved that much to say it's all about her changes?

I don't know. I just see a lot of cyclical behavior. As for being at the end or your rope, yeah, we get it. The one thing everyone here agrees on is that you have to do something far different than what you have been doing.

CG's notes are priceless and detailed. Print them out b/c your memory is short. Read them daily... Seriously.
j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/15/09 05:55 AM
I don't have it in me to really address everything that was said. But I will say this. The only way for me to achieve detachment really is by bringing this to a close and ending it and walking away.

25, I don't even know what to say about your assumption that I am just going to go back to drinking and so forth with my life. I'm not.

As far as seeing things as black and white, you are right, I did. I no longer do. I understand now that everyone has their limits. I hit mine. I guess the whole "standing" thing was more than I could really take with time. I bit off more than I could chew. I thought I could chew the whole thing as long as it took. I can't.

CG, I am not looking to gain any control over this or get her back. I am walking away from her and moving on with my life without her. I am prepared to go through with this and I have no expectations of her changing her mind or else I wouldn't consider this. I am done. I am walking out. It is over. She isn't coming back. I'm not wasting my time anymore on a dream.

The only thing I am worried about now is how to tell my kids that yes, I am officially ending it. But in all honesty, I am not ending anything. W already ended it. I am just finalizing it.

I did talk to my priest yesterday. He is not for it. He thinks I need to keep praying and being patient. He says that once I am a confirmed catholic that my prayers will have more influence as a H and a father. Maybe that is true, maybe it isn't. I don't know. It kind of frusturated me as I am trying to submit to the authority of the church. Even my BIL surprisingly is finally in support of me doing this. He said morally he isn't, but he also said he is not in my position and he can understand it and he can't say at the same time how long he could hold out either.

It is not that I am looking for approval so much as seeing if I am stepping out of bounds here. And I seem to have everyone in agreement other than my priest to go forward with it if I can't hold out any longer.

Yes, I took a harsh stance as a stander. But my human side finally took over. I realized reality.

25, I don't think I am ever going to convince you of anything other than what my past was.

I already said I feel like a hypocrite because of how harsh my stance was. I can't change that.

I haven't fully made my decision as I don't want to be in defiance of the church. I am really trying to think it over though and weigh stuff. If I do this, I am going through with it. I have already set my mindset of being done if I do this. This is no joke and no ploy and no strategy. I would not do this lightly. I don't want to do it. There were times when I almost wanted to cry when thinking about going forward with it. But I feel like it is the only way to move on with my life and put her in the past.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/15/09 07:00 AM
Kevin - I like the sound of your latest tone. The realization that you are human and cant be expected to have unconditional love. Dont feel bad that you have reached a limit.

Originally Posted By: K4D
I did talk to my priest yesterday. He is not for it. He thinks I need to keep praying and being patient. He says that once I am a confirmed catholic that my prayers will have more influence as a H and a father. Maybe that is true, maybe it isn't. I don't know. It kind of frusturated me as I am trying to submit to the authority of the church.

The only thing I think the priest is lacking experience of is marriage itself. Kevin, the priest has not walked in your shoes or anyone elses that has gone through the heartache of having a spouse walk away. I can understand that you are really torn right now, and I think as more time goes on for you to think about this, you will feel better about your decision.

I remember having friends and family thinking I was a fool for wanting her back. But, I needed to know for myself that I tried to do all I felt I could and should do to help save my family.

I dont know how long divorces take in Texas, but I would imagine it is several months. Keep in mind that anything can happen during that time.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/15/09 01:00 PM
"Really, I have to ask. What is your purpose in posting to me? Is it to call me out and expose the fact that I am not the end all be all, which I don't claim to be and never have by a long shot? Or is it that you are trying to push me to be better?"

It is to do neither. We've all seen what happens both times when you're pushed and when you're not. I was merely stating fact. You haven't detached. Citygirl explained it quite elegantly.

Detachment isn't about being either all in or all out. If you looked back at your statements on "standing" you will see that for yourself. It's like you're telling people your POV which didn't seem like you fully understood yourself.

"But I will say this. The only way for me to achieve detachment really is by bringing this to a close and ending it and walking away."

Right here is where you show how little you understand about detachment. Even if you were D'd, if your feelings are still there, you will only change the feelings of hopelessness to feelings of resentment and eventual hatred. And that's something your daughters don't need.

You've shown time and time again that you have a problem with trying to keep your emotions in check. Divorce isn't going to change that. It will only make it worse. Detach and you will get better. You will FEEL better. Detachment means that you will feel the same about your W whether you are D'd from her or not. It's an acceptance of how things are but it is your choice to decide how they will be.

You still haven't reached that "a-ha" moment about what detachment is.
Posted By: ClingingToHope Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/15/09 01:11 PM
Quote:
Right here is where you show how little you understand about detachment. Even if you were D'd, if your feelings are still there, you will only change the feelings of hopelessness to feelings of resentment and eventual hatred. And that's something your daughters don't need.

This is my problem as well. I'm GALing and trying to detach but just can't seem to get there. I'm considering counseling to see if there's some deep-seated issues making me hold on so tightly.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/15/09 04:45 PM
I am not really sure what the connection is about praying and being patient AND filing for a D. Just because you file for a D doesn't mean you still can't pray and be patient. You will need patience with your W/exW for a very long time as the two of you will always be co-parents no matter what your legal marital status may be.

I have to agree with the other poster (Kerry I think). A priest has never been married in the sense that you and I have. Being married to the Church or God is much different as EVERYBODY follows the same "code", the support and belief system is the same and their are certain rules that are never broken. I am simply stating facts and not make judgements.

Of course nobody WANTS to be divorced and I am not one to suggest throwing in the towel at the first sign of trouble in a marriage. And I agree with you that divorce should be the absolute very last option but I am not so sure all this moral judgement has to be attached to the act of dissolving a marriage.

Sometimes, despite our best efforts a marriage simply cannot be rebuilt. If you can go to sleep each night knowing you handled the separation, the DB'ing, the detachment and the entire process in the best way possible then you are ready to D.

You simply have to be prepared NOT to consider your W's feelings, emotions or reactions at all. This D is for YOU and the betterment of YOUR life as your W has made it clear she has no desire to be part of your life as a W.

Just to open a dialogue and perhaps get you thinking in a new way, what exactly can't you take anymore? I am not asking to be snarky, I am really just wondering your thoughts.

If you are at total peace with this decision then the actual act of filing for a D (aside from talking to your children about it which should involve their C) then it actually shouldn't be that hard of a step to take.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/15/09 07:35 PM
what stuck and CG said.

I'm not sure why you have to tell the girls anything at this point. As you say, your w ended the m, you are merely formalizing it. What's to tell? And no, I am not telling you what you should or should not do re: your m. As a Catholic, I know your dilemma and that none of us can say what we'd put up with or for how long, etc. Even div your w doesn't mean things won't ultimately work out. Imho, the only chance you have of getting anywhere with her, little as it MAY be, is by moving on, whatever that means.

If this last post of yours sticks with you and you don't revert back to black and white thinking/judging, then you have indeed learned something valuable.

I wish the priest had been more helpful. I found one who was and that did ease my mind, along with the inner knowledge & conviction that God does indeed want us to be happy. He does not want us to suffer endlessly when another person makes bad choices. But it is up to US to not let other's choices decide our fate, and it is up to us to determine our own happiness levels.

Good luck,
j-
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 02:01 PM
Kevin,

I just don't know what to say. You and only you can decide if you are, indeed, done. Is it just too hard, too painful, easier to give up - or are you really sure it won't ever work out? YES, she is a miserable b*tch to you, awful in every way. But are you truly done?

Are you accepting or giving up?
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 02:56 PM
Kevin, I agree with 25 as far as telling the girls, and also like Wifey said are you sure you are truly done? IMO I don't think that you are, and I just hope that you really think before you act.
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 03:02 PM
So how are you feeling this Monday? Do you have any sort of legal paperwork in place like a legal separation? If your really done get the D, if not then protect yourself legally and just get a legal separation.

When my exh left the first time I went and saw our priest. I am no longer Catholic, but was going for exh even though he was far from a practicing Catholic. Anyway, his advice was to protect myself legally, but let him walk if he is gonna walk. God did not want me hanging on exh's leg. Exh, like your W, chose to leave the M. If she is committing adultery then you have every reason within the church to file for D....if that is what YOU want. Don't do it as some knee jerk reaction or to get a desired reaction out of her.

Hang in there.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 03:47 PM
My BIL went and had dinner with W last night. I opted out. Apparently they talked about me for about 45 minutes. My BIL said that W didn't say anything negative about me. He said he also felt like he couldn't get anywhere with her when he asked her what it would take to work things out. Apparently she said that she wants to see me be able to make my own decisions and that she wants to be able to trust me. He said the conversation wasn't really positive or negative. It just was.

How am I supposed to be able to build trust with her if she wants nothing to do with me?

I was ready to file and move on. Now I am wondering if I should hold off a little more. My BIL said he doesn't know if she was wearing a mask during the coversation because he knows what she has done and said to me.

I don't know whether there is any reason to hope or not.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 04:00 PM
I really wish you would keep family out of it. It will do no good at all. This is between you and your W and that is it. You might think its okay or not causing more damage but it is.

What you seem to NOT realize is it works both ways. She wants to be able to trust you but YOU also need to be able to trust her and see her changes are true and real.

I am simply telling you what I would do in this situation. I would wait a week or two and then talk to your W and keep it very brief and leave the ball in her court.

I would say "W, I understand trust is an issue for BOTH of us however I feel its no longer productive for me or the children to live in a situation with such loose parameters. I have given this quite a bit of thought over the past few weeks and I know I must move forward with or without you. If your desire is not to work on our marriage then I feel its best *I* proceed with a divorce and focus all our energies on being good co-parents"

I might even go as far as to say that you have retained counsel and had papers drawn up but you wanted to give her a bit of time to think about it before you went ahead and filed and had her served. Don't give her too much time, let her know you have given your attny permission to execute the papers on xx day.

I think the talk your W had with your BIL gave you some false hope. You already knew she found your inability to make decisions unattractive therefore making you unsuitable in her eyes as a life partner. Plus, your W wasn't going to bash you or divulge too much info to your BIL.

You still need to make many changes but so does she. She might never acknowledge that therefore any piecing the two of you do would not work.

Don't use the D as a "threat" though. Just let her know where you are at and what you plan to do to move forward.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 04:28 PM
Quote:
I really wish you would keep family out of it. It will do no good at all. This is between you and your W and that is it. You might think its okay or not causing more damage but it is.


CG, he wanted to go do dinner with her. I told him I wasn't going to go. He told me about the conversation later.

His view is that he was the best man at our wedding and it is his job to try and pull the M back together.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 04:34 PM
Kevin, so what if he wanted to go to dinner with her? I find it stunning that you have not stood up for yourself and told your family if they choose to spend time with your W then ANY discussion about the marriage is off limits. And if they don't follow what you have requested and try and tell you about any conversation they had w/your W you should be saying "I think I made myself pretty clear that I do not want anybody involved in this situation and I have no desire to hear about any conversation that was had".

Who cares what his view is about being the best man at your wedding and him feeling its "his job" to try and pull the M back together. That sounds stone cold crazy and quite frankly rather manipulating IMO.

If he feels so strongly about that being "his job" then he should have called up your W prior to dinner and said "W, as the best man at your wedding I feel its my job to try and pull the marriage of you and Kevin back together". You think she still would have gone?

You make excuses for this crazy behavior. Why are you so afraid to set boundaries with all the people in your life? Can you help us understand?

Your BIL can have any view he likes but it gives him NO RIGHT to impose it on you, your W or YOUR marriage. That is the biggest bit of BS I have heard in a while and trust me when I say I have heard tons from my H as of late.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 04:45 PM
CG,

I wasn't exactly opposed to him talking to her. She respects him and likes him apparently. He is the only one that I know of that is pro-marriage that she will talk to.

I didn't figure it could hurt at this point if she was willing to talk to him. The fact that she did talk for 45 minutes never getting upset about it was interesting.

BTW, I would not use D as a threat. The D is to be done and walk away.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 04:48 PM
sway
verb
1. (usually intr) to swing or cause to swing to and fro
2. (usually intr) to lean or incline or cause to lean or incline to one side or in different directions in turn
3. (usually intr) to vacillate or cause to vacillate between two or more opinions
4. to be influenced or swerve or influence or cause to swerve to or from a purpose or opinion
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 04:51 PM
<sigh>

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 04:51 PM
You are missing the point. You are STILL trying to control your W by hoping that a talk with a "pro marriage" person will turn her around.

Your BIL has no right to impose his views on your W or you and veil it with it the nonsense of it being his job as your best man.

Why do you find it interesting that they spoke for 45 min. and she didn't get upset? Your W is as crafty as they come and if you think she was going to show her true cards to your BIL then I think you are living in a fantasy world.

I have a very hard time understanding you. You always figure "something can't hurt" but you never stop and think about what could help. And the dinner with your BIL was not a helper.

You are still trying to mind read. So what if she didn't get upset for 45 min? Did you think she would and create a scene at a restaurant?

It should really bug you that your BIL feels anything to do with your marriage is "his job" because he was your best man. Why doesn't it? And, your W respects your BIL because of the reasons you stated before... he is successful at his job and that is the kind of job she wants. So, if she has to chat about you for 45 min. and keep it civil so she can continue to network about business with him, she will. She is rather transparent, no?
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 04:57 PM
You know, Kevin, your <sigh> responses are pretty darn rude.

You get more attention than anybody on these boards and people have bent over backwards to try and help you, support you and perhaps make observations that are accurate about your situation as we are not invested in it the same way you are.

All you do is alienate people when you respond like that. It's childish and immature and not very nice to the people that take time to compose responses to you. I really don't get you at all.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 05:00 PM
I can't figure out why your BIL wanted to have dinner with her? Not to mention why she accepted. What did she think they were going to talk about? Is she looking for a loan? or professional advice? What was her agenda?

Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 05:02 PM
Kevin, just so you know, I told my W's brother in an email about our situation. I told him to not tell their mother, but he did anyway. Needless to say, my W had quite the interesting vocabulary as a pre school teacher the next day when she spoke to me.

I did this stupid move right about the same time I first learned of Divorce Busting and the first responses on my initial thread were 2x4's which I deserved. My intention at the time was that I was hoping her brother could speak some sense into her. Instead it was more like I dropped a match into a can of gasoline.

I think your W just told your BIL what he wanted to hear to get him to drop it. Think of your BIL as a themometer with a faulty reading. And there is no way a themometer can fix a problem.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 05:02 PM
I think his sighs represent "ho hum.." not "blah blah"

I could be wrong.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 05:10 PM
The sigh was in response to the definitions of "sway". Thats all.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 05:14 PM
Yes, my W is very crafty. I don't know what her agenda was. Maybe it was just to network. Who knows.

I don't know if my BIL dropped a match into a can of gasoline or not. I guess I will find out if he did.

I'm sure she knew that some of the conversation was going to be about us. She obviously wasn't opposed to it. He finally ended up changing the coversation after 45 minutes, not her.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 05:16 PM
Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
I think his sighs represent "ho hum.." not "blah blah"

I could be wrong.


guy still doesnt listen to what his wife is telling him.

Quote:

Apparently she said that she wants to see me be able to make my own decisions and that she wants to be able to trust me.


wasnt it several million posts back his wife give him a list of things to work on. then a million posts back people were harping on him for still not working on them. And here we are again, still not listening to her, still unable to make decisions for himself, and still swayin' back and forth between this emotion and that emotion. one day this and one day that.

I wouldnt doubt the guys shes attracted to and the guys who she is seeing are decisive, confident, and stable with their emotions.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 05:17 PM
Quote:
I wouldnt doubt the guys shes attracted to and the guys who she is seeing are decisive, confident, and stable with their emotions.


Probably true.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 05:29 PM
From this point forward consider *any* conversation your W has with your family/friends about the marriage a HUGE flaming match being tossed in a roaring fire. Don't do it. Just stop.

Of course she wasn't opposed to listening to your BIL for 45 min. because I do think she was there to network for business reasons as she was rather upfront about how much she admires his job and how she would like a job like that. So, if she has to listen to him babble for 45 min. about marriage to get to "her agenda" she will.

If somebody told me they would give me a pair of Prada boots if I just sat and listened to a 45 min. speech about pig poo I would happily listen and participate as well because I want those boots.

And saying "obviously" is mind reading. You don't know she wasn't opposed to it simply because she didn't verbalize it. You just know she tolerated it to make herself look good.
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 05:46 PM
Originally Posted By: CityGirl
If somebody told me they would give me a pair of Prada boots if I just sat and listened to a 45 min. speech about pig poo I would happily listen and participate as well because I want those boots.

I am conjuring up a mental image of CityGirl now... http://i.thisislondon.co.uk/i/pix/2009/03/prada-boots-415x700.jpg
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 05:48 PM
Originally Posted By: KerryK

I am conjuring up a mental image of CityGirl now... http://i.thisislondon.co.uk/i/pix/2009/03/prada-boots-415x700.jpg


Meh, needs bigger boots. wink
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 05:58 PM
I got IM'd

W: did you remember to pay D11's driver?
K4D: No. I can't pull money out until I get my card. Can you pay him and then I will pay you back?
W: sure. oh and i got BIL all taken care of and settled in his room last night
K4D: Thank you
W: no need to thank me. he's still family and i love him dearly.
K4D: He loves you to

I guess she enjoyed herself.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 06:12 PM
pig poo could actually be a very interesting conversation. I can see many places that can lead to.

Kevin
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 06:16 PM
name one. smile
Posted By: Coach Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 06:19 PM
Quote:
pig poo could actually be a very interesting conversation.



never wrestle with a pig. you get dirty and the pig likes it.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 06:21 PM
You can turn pig poop into crude oil.

Kevin
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 06:27 PM
Gack! Seriously?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 06:28 PM
Quote:
Gack! Seriously?


Yup. I read an article on it from National Geographic.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 06:49 PM
I go to the store and this thread jumps 4 pages! Amazing. Kevin you have alot of support on here. More than anyone I know...I can go days without a response. frown Probably because I say the same things over and over again. LOL

Don't overanalyze. BIL and W had a meal together. Leave it at that!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 07:38 PM
Quote:
Don't overanalyze. BIL and W had a meal together. Leave it at that!


I know. It is just that my BIL said he would hold off on filing and give it more time after he talked to her. And I am just wondering what gives him the impression that something might change with more time.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 07:59 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
Don't overanalyze. BIL and W had a meal together. Leave it at that!


I know. It is just that my BIL said he would hold off on filing and give it more time after he talked to her. And I am just wondering what gives him the impression that something might change with more time.

Kevin


Nothing has changed. She maybe just blowing smoke as to not look like the only bad guy in the situation. Now if she were to say "M is done, I want out and on with my life" how does that look? It makes her look better to blow smoke like she gives a crap. Sorry to be blunt, but I hear it all the time from my exh and I really think all it serves to do is relieve some of their guilt.

Someone told me a long time ago and I will pass it on: Until the day your W stands at your door and asks to work on the M 100%, is committed and willing to do what it took, and then taking the time to see what happens then take everything with a grain of salt. Remember actions speak louder than words. What are her actions really saying?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 08:27 PM
Quote:
What are her actions really saying?


Her actions are saying she is done and has moved on.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 08:46 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
What are her actions really saying?


Her actions are saying she is done and has moved on.

Kevin


Ok, keep that in the forefront of your mind. At least you don't have her saying ILY and I miss you and I want things to be different and then find out she is sleeping with someone else that night! Ewwww...thats the kind of mind games I deal with all the time.

It sucks. I get it and I suck at being strong too. None of us wanted our M's to fail. But you cannot do it alone. Start making a list of all the positives in your life aside of W.
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 08:49 PM
Kevin, if you decide you need to file, do it. If she really doesn't want that (I know, we will all be very surprised), there's plenty of time to stop it. It may be time to make the consequences of her choices, and yours, for that matter, real.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 09:24 PM
Let me ask you a very reasonable question. Why does your BIL have so much power over you? Is it because he is pro-marriage and very successful?

Your BIL seems to view himself as a very powerful man. Who is he to tell you to hold off on making choices about YOUR life until he talks to your W? Can you see from an outsiders perspective how that comes off?

Why does your BIL feel he can get any further with your W than you can? It seems rather strange to me that your super smart, super successful BIL doesn't see that perhaps your W was just "playing nice" and not wanting to look like the bad guy.

And please pardon this question as it is blunt but why do you put so much stock in what your BIL says but not what hundreds of people in the SAME SITUATION try to get you to think about on an hourly basis.

Hell, the County Clerk's office closed 20 min. ago which means I am now officially and legally separated and I am still pro-marriage, just not *this* marriage.

Sometimes you have to give a little to get a little. I realize I sound like a hard-ass and in my situation I had to be one but just two days ago I mentioned in your thread what was happening to ME today and not once have you asked how I am doing. But I kept plugging away with you and YOUR problems.

Get out of your own head, it will be the only way to see things clearly. Actions speak, words do not. Your W has not put forth one action towards you that would indicate she has any interest in working on the marriage. I am sorry to say that but it seems to be the reality of the situation.

But this power your BIL has over you probably should have some examination as it seems very strange to me. This is just my opinion but I think you want to be your BIL - he has a good job and your W respects him for that and that is why you allowed him to attempt to control things with your W. Just think about that for a while.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/16/09 09:56 PM
CG, first let me ask, how are you doing with everything?

As far as my BIL having power over me or anything else. He is actually a really humble person and extremely nice. But he does stand up for M's and families especially if he thinks there is any chance he might be able to help. He tried to reason with my W and see if there is any way to get her to reconsider things. After 45 minutes of talking to her and not really getting anywhere, he finally dropped the subject and moved on to another one.

And he did see that perhaps she was just playing nice. He said that she may very well have been wearing a mask during the conversation. He knows what she is like.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/17/09 02:44 PM
Today my W is taking the kids to the C. The C wants to talk to her about how she is interacting with the girls. So I will get my girls after the C appointment.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/17/09 02:51 PM
That's great Kevin. Just remember to be the bigger person in all this. Try very hard not to question the girls and to try to not bad mouth THEIR MOTHER in any way. It will hurt them in the long run and they will eventually figure out where they stand with her anyway.

Just stay positive and be your girls rock.

PMA
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/17/09 02:52 PM
Ditto what PMA said!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/17/09 03:22 PM
I'm not going to question them and I am not going to bad mouth their mother.

I will just be my normal self when I get them afterwards.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/17/09 03:51 PM
CG,

I can tell you are incredibly frustrated. I do hope things are well with you, especially since you are newly, legally separated. My support and good wishes go out to you.

Kev,

Hey there. Dinner between wife and BIL was an event, and nothing more. She didn't just play nice. She held her cards close and came across as a reasonable person, because she made her decision and feels she chose correctly.

What you need to do is continue to work on you. Don't think any more about what she is doing or why. Go to AA, play with the girls, GAL, and all those things you need to do to help yourself heal.

Don't make any emotional decisions right now. From talking to you over these months, I have a hunch that the minute you announced you were done, filing, walking away that you would regret it right away.

Focus on you. Don't agonize over what she is doing or why. Muse in your head and maybe not as much here. It will make you crazy to have everyone smacking you every day. I know why they do it, but I see it differently.

Everyone's sitch is different. Similarities between sitch's do not make them identical. We are all affected differently by what we are going through. And you need to start s-l-o-w-ing down and not getting into a "circular reference."

Slow down, take it slow, don't analyze and mind-read. Keep your apartment up, work on you, love the girls. Those are the only things you have to do right now.

Nothing is going to happen over night with your sitch. No one thing is going to mark the turning point. Work on your growth.

Find those lists of what your w thinks you need to work on for a starting point and figure YOU out. Figure out your values, what you want, what your priorities are. Grow.

Talk to you soon.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 07:12 PM
Last night was interesting.

I picked up my kids and took them to W who was going to meet me at her work to take the kids to C with her. During this exchange W tells me she is busy and her contract ends in 5 weeks. Also asks if I can watch the kids 3 days next week because she will be so busy at work. My dad will be in town next week and will probably love to spend time with the girls. So ok. Then I ask her if she is still coming over for thanksgiving dinner as the girls had really pushed for it and she had agreed she would. She now tells me she isn't sure. Ok, no biggie.

After C I meet her again to get the girls since this is my week with them. W discusses some of the appointment regarding D11 and her together. Ok.

Then, Then, Then, W asks me to pray for her best friends M. As far as my W knew last night, her best friend of 25 years and H had split. He was down in Houston and her best friend is here in Dallas with the baby. Keep in mind this is the best friend and H that covered up the A my W was having, bashed me to my W, sabotaged me at certain points to my W, and pushed my W to D me. Now my W who has her own OM has the gall to ask me to pray for her best friends M??? On top of that is the irony of pray for their M, but don't dare pray for ours.

I said ok and turned around and left. Talk about testing my forgiveness. If that whole situation isn't a test, I don't know what is.

I have forgiven all of them and I did pray that God would help their M last night and this morning.

W tells me later on this morning that their M is not in jeaopardy but that the H has to take care of serious C for himself in Houston.

Ok. Glad to know their M is ok.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 07:27 PM
Can anyone explain the irony of this to me and what the heck my W is thinking?

confused shocked crazy

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 07:31 PM
How would we know what your W is thinking?

If you felt so strongly about these people why didn't you cut your W off before she even got to the praying part and say: W, this isn't child related talk and I really don't want to hear about it. Because remember, SHE said ONLY child related talk.

If you did that you wouldn't have had to hear any of it and then you wouldn't be wondering what she was thinking.

Boundaries. They exist for a reason.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 07:34 PM
Well, she said it kind of fast and quick CG. We were both walking away from each other and then she calls me back and starts in with I need you to pray for BFF and H. They are split up and etc, etc, etc. I said ok and walked away. There was no real conversation about it.

I was hoping someone might see something that I am not seeing out of this as far as any reason or logic goes.

And the funny thing is, she knows we haven't talked in a long time for the obvious reasons. But I guess my W also knows that I am a forgiving person and care about M's.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 07:37 PM
You need to be quick and fast too. No excuses. You have posted IM after IM exchange here where your W point blank asks you if the topic is kid related and if you say no she cuts you off VERY quick and fast w/no real conversation either.

The SECOND she started saying something that was not kid related is where you say: W, this is not child related talk, gotta run! Then turn around and leave.

Think. Action. Boundaries.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 07:46 PM
It just seems rude to me and I have a tough time doing that to someone. Thats why I just say ok, or change the topic or say I gotta go.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 07:52 PM
Setting boundaries (actually honoring boundaries you didn't even set) isn't being rude nor do you have to act rude to set or honor them.

Tell your W enough times when she says ANYTHING that is not child related that you wont have that conversation and eventually she might start to ASK if you if you are willing to talk about other things. She only talks to you about non child related things when she needs or wants something and you allow it.

There really is nothing more to say about the matter. You either do it or don't. If you want something different to possibly happen then do it. If you like how things are then don't.
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 07:53 PM
Kevin, these situations are when you need to be like Tony Romo and call an audible. They happen quick, but you need to adjust quickly to them.

I do agree that it is ironic and hypercritical that your W told you and asked you to pray. You should just find humor in that though. Dont try to figure her out.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 08:23 PM
Do you recommend sending an email such as this?

"W,

As far as last night went, it was fine to talk to me about the appointment as I asked and it was obviously kid related.

But I am afraid I am going to have to ask you to refrain from speaking on any other matters such as BFF and H or anything else that is going on in your personal life.

Granted, I asked about them today out of concern for them which I really should not have since it was not kid related either.

But you set this rule that there could be no talking unless it is about the kids or financial and have shut me down in the past. But yet you keep talking to me about stuff that is not related to the kids or financial. You keep venting to me about things that are unrelated such as arguements with your mother and how you feel about your family.

I am just trying to honor the boundaries that you set."


Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 08:26 PM
I would not send it.

Wait for it to happen again (in person, on phone, via text or IM) and make it short and sweet, be kind and firm: W: this is not kid or money talk and I don't care to have this conversation or any other one that is not related to the kids/money.

If she asks why - say you are honoring a boundary SHE set as that is the healthy and productive way to improve communication then let it go.

Each time she tries to sneak in another topic say the same thing. Eventually she will get it or ASK you if you if she can change the boundary.

My 2 cents.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 08:27 PM
No. Once again. Let your actions speak louder then your words.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 08:34 PM
Ok.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 08:50 PM
Would Tony Romo send an email to the opposing defense after they sacked or intercepted on him?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 08:52 PM
Quote:
Would Tony Romo send an email to the opposing defense after they sacked or intercepted on him?


Umm... No.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 09:10 PM
Speaking of the NFL and throwing salt into an open wound...

Brady Quinn, the QB for the hopeless Browns, was just fined $10K for a chop-block in Mondays game. And the Browns coach just said he has an orange helmet waiting for LeBron James if he wants to play. That there is desperation. The Browns need to get and read a copy of "Divorce Busting - the NFL edition".
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 09:15 PM
KerryK,

Good to know. I will let you make that recommendation to them. Maybe they can pull Jim Brown out of retirement. He couldn't be worse than what they have now.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 09:25 PM
They could bring back Otto Graham from the grave and he would be close in QB rating as what they got now.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 09:33 PM
lol.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 10:58 PM
Glad you didn't send the email. You and W already had the conversation boundary talk. Now just enforce it. But I wouldn't tell her you are. Just act uninterested and end the conversation with her mid sentence. Gotta be quick on your toes to catch it.
W:Can you pray for my bff and her....
You:..ok, really busy. Gotta run. (with a huge smile on your face like you are headed to Disneyland or something)

If you shut her down and then tell her why, she will think you are doing it out of spite. When you act indifferent to her or anything in her life that will bug her more.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 11:15 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Do you recommend sending an email such as this?

"W,

As far as last night went, it was fine to talk to me about the appointment as I asked and it was obviously kid related.

But I am afraid I am going to have to ask you to refrain from speaking on any other matters such as BFF and H or anything else that is going on in your personal life.

Granted, I asked about them today out of concern for them which I really should not have since it was not kid related either.


But you set this rule that there could be no talking unless it is about the kids or financial and have shut me down in the past. But yet you keep talking to me about stuff that is not related to the kids or financial. You keep venting to me about things that are unrelated such as arguements with your mother and how you feel about your family.

I am just trying to honor the boundaries that you set."


Kevin


Wait. You brought the topic up in the first place, so you broke the boundary she set, not her? Oh. Next time try saying "sorry I asked" and then drop it. And of course you should not send that letter. That's a no brainer. No words. No letters...just doing things differently. If you feel compelled about irony then be direct and say "gee w, no irony in that request..." and move along. What are you afraid of? Why walk on egg shells? Don't be angry when you say it; be amused. It is ironic.
j-
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 11:41 PM
detach
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/18/09 11:47 PM
I don't know how else to say it to you. DETACH.

Do you know why *my* H texted me last night (I ignored it) and e-mailed me first thing today? Do you know why *my* H asked if he could help me and be there for me even though, as per him, he knows I won't let him. Do you know why *my* H asked to come over and pick up papers that I could mail to him? Do you know why *my* H thinks the legal separation will "wipe our slate clean"?

You don't know and I don't either. Who cares? Detach. Let these crazy WAS think what they want. I am done. Over it. I hope I am around to see the day when you just get so tired of the BS you just detach and say WHO CARES!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 03:45 PM
Detach, yes I know.

I woke up this morning and did some praying for W's day, my girls day, and other M's and my day. Then I got started getting ready for work and headed out.

W calls me on the way to work. She says that D11 has given everyone real attitude problems. She is really berating her sister D7 and last night told D7 that she has to ask permission to get on the couch. W went off on D11 for that. So W sends D11 to her room. Then W hears D11 crying and goes in to see why. D11 has a picture of my mom on her phone who is now deceased and is crying about it. W tells her that she would buy it if D11 hadn't just gotten in trouble. W takes away D11's cell phone and sees that D11 has put on her cell phone that she hates her family.

W points out to D11 that D11 seems to have a problem with everyone else and nobody has a problem with her. Who is the common denominator here. Of course D11 has to acknowledge that. D11 has always had anger issues when she didn't get her way. D7 isn't doing anything to her, but D11 takes everything out on D7 anyways.

So W tells D11 that she is doing permanent damage to D7.

Prior to W taking away the cell phone D11 sends a text to me and W asking on a scale of 1 to 10 how much do we love her, how much do we love D7, and how much do we love each of them. Well, both me and my W responded equally and that nothing would ever change that.

Then W tells D11 who would be the type of person to treat kids differently. D11 says a cold hearted person. So W asked D11 if W is cold hearted and D11 says no. I'm sitting here thinking W's mom does exactly that to D11 and D7. She has always shown obvious favor to D11 and hurt D7's feelings many times. But I didn't say my thoughts. W tells me she is limiting contact now between D11 and her mom. I think that is great. Her mom is a terrible person in how she treats people. She has done nothing to build the bond between D11 and D7. She has done a lot of damage there.

So W calls me and wants me to ground D11 tonight instead of waiting for her to come back to W's house. I'm onboard. We have to be in agreement with the kids.

W tells me that her and the C believe that D11 is using this D as an excuse to manipulate things her way more than anything. I said I think the separation is playing a part in it, but not completely. I refused to say D, I will refer to it as a separation.

I told W that I am glad D11 is in C. She really has some issues that are coming with the hormone changes, family changes, middle school, etc.

That being aside I did some research on some books that could help out in handing D11 better or at least maybe could. I sent them to my W.

Books that might help you and me with D11.

The Power Of a Praying Parent
The Power of a Praying Parent : Prayer and Study Guide The Power of a Praying Parent Book of Prayers Shepherding a Child's Heart

For D11

It's Not About Me: Live Like You Mean It (Teen Edition) By Max Lucado Facing Your Giants : Teen Edition By Max Lucado Just Like Jesus for Teens By Max Lucado Redefining Beautiful: What God Sees When God Sees You By Jenna Lucado and Max Lucado

Apparently W has also bought 2 american girl books that she wants D11 to read a chapter in each night about helping her grow and then email both me and W what she read and learned each night. I said ok. D11 hates to read so this should be interesting.

W says quickly that her end date is the end of December for her contract and then says have a good day and goodbye. I said have a good day and goodbye as well.

That way my morning.

Oh, I did get an email from the C yesterday saying she thought the session Tuesday evening with W and the girls went really well.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 03:57 PM
It is just amazing to me that W always throws in there that the current situation doesn't have anything to do with issues the girls may be having. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!

It isn't all of it, but it is certainly playing a part in it. How dense can you be??? Of course there are other issues at play here, but to say that the situation has nothing to do with it is so bogus from everything that I have read.

I get frusturated every time she says that. It is like she feels like she constantly has to defend her decisions. And I guess that is because she knows that I see BS in it.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 04:05 PM
It's called Denial Kev. You should know abou it wink Just like you are in DENIAL about her wanting a DIVORCE. Just ACCEPT REALITY and move on. Dont send her books about praying. That is judgemental. People that are being judge DO NOT feel RESPECTED.

You say you know you should DETACH but you still are asking questions about what she is thinking. Who cares!?! DETACH.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 04:09 PM
PMA,

I am not in denial that she wants a D. I didn't send her books that had anything to do with praying for us, only D11. But the books also help you understand the kids and what they are going through and how to better relate to them and raise them. It isn't just praying for them. It is a combination of things in the books.

I guess I keep trying to find rationalization in an unrational mind. Ridiculous on my part.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 04:11 PM
LOL! Funny you use that phrase. I'm constantly telling myself and others "You can't rationalize with someone who is being irrational." Another one of my favs is "dont get in the mud with a pig. The pig likes it and you get dirty."
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 04:20 PM
Why not buy the books for your D11 and keep them at your house. Clearly your W does not feel the same way about prayer/raising children at this time and it does feel like you are pushing beliefs IMO.

I wouldn't per say ask your W for permission to have your D11 read these books but perhaps say something like: W, I bought D11 some books that I am going to keep at my house for her to read. Why don't you work on the American Girl books w/her and I will work on the books we have here. Who knows, with some consistent reading at both our homes maybe it will become less of a chore for D11 to read and she might actually learn to enjoy it.

Reading is a great thing. Why don't you implement some sort of reading hour with your girls a few nights a week. Go buy some big comfy floor pillows and find a little corner of your apartment that can be reserved for the "reading area". Let your kids be part of creating the reading area. Get them excited about it!

As far as your W thinking/justifying that the separation is not part of D11's behavior issues it might not be the root issue as you said she had anger issues prior but it certainly plays a part now. Your W might never acknowledge that and trying to point it out to her is fruitless.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 04:30 PM
CG,

I think those are some good ideas. I already bought the Shepharding a childs heart book for myself to read. The books were just suggestions to W. I am going to buy some of the Max Lucado books to do with D11 and D7.

And you are right, it is fruitless to point out to W that the separation is playing some part. W doesn't want to see that or hear it. She just wants to live in denial about it. I think I just get tired of hearing her constantly bring it up and defending herself on it. She knows I see right through it. So maybe I should just tell her to quit bringing it up.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 04:35 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
maybe I should just tell her to quit bringing it up.
Kevin


Bingo!
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 04:58 PM
Kevin -

You might want to check this excellent parenting book out from the library:

How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 05:09 PM
KerryK,

For my sitch, this one might also be a good one to read.

Siblings Without Rivalry: How to Help Your Children Live Together So You Can Live Too

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 05:13 PM
KerryK

There is also a teen edition for the book you recommended.

How to Talk So Teens Will Listen & Listen So Teens Will Talk

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 05:14 PM
Another good set of books is Boundaries with Children. I love those. The whole Boundary set is great and you may find some of the stuff interesting. They are Christian based.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 05:21 PM
Excellent. Thanks. These are all good suggestions.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 05:30 PM
It is agonizing for me when my kids fight. But that is common with kids that are less than 2 years apart. They do get along most the time.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 05:38 PM
My D11 constantly picks at D7 and I hate having to get onto D11 so much. But I have no choice because she just won't stop. Then of course the natural thoughts pop into my head that this wouldn't be AS difficult if me and W were not separated. I know there would still be issues. But being separated just makes it harder on them and on me. And from what I can tell on W to. I seem to get more phone calls from her griping about D11 than anything and wanting to make sure I am onboard with her about how to handle D11.

It angers me sometimes at W and I just want to blurt out and say, your problem, you created it, you wanted this, you deal with it. But I don't. I just get onboard with her as I have to do what is best to help D11 and D7 no matter how frusturated I am at W.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 05:46 PM
I am in complete agreement about single parenting being a challenge. That was perhaps the number one reason I tried to save my marriage.

My S9 is sensitive and my strong willed D7 knows how to push his buttons simply by ignoring his questions to her which drives him nuts. I just keep telling the boy to ignore her and detach.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 05:58 PM
Quote:
I just keep telling the boy to ignore her and detach.


Preparing him for his possible future are we? Probably not a bad idea. It is a good life skill.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 06:03 PM
I just have to remember what my role is. Be the best dad I can be for my girls and stop letting W frusturate me. I can't do anything about it anyways.

Kevin
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 06:18 PM
Kevin,
I don't get why you are even considering filing for a D, when you claimed you are standing for your M. If you are standing and believe in what you are fighting for why would you file? You claim you love W and girls then you have to stand. Not pursue, fight, or any of that with W but detach.

I can't seem to detach either, but you were the one that told me about rejoice ministries and now you are considering filing. If W wants D let her file. And still stand. There are so many people out there that get divorce and remarried or reconcile after years. Please help me understand what is making you change your mind.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 06:29 PM
Goodfight,

Great frusturation really got to me. I started feeling like nothing was ever going to change no matter how much I prayed. I saw no signs of anything getting better with my W, but instead her just continuing to move on with other guys.

Once your W moves onto a second or third guy after the first A, you start to wonder if it really is over and you have just been kidding yourself. It can really test your faith. It has been a hard road and I just haven't even seen a breakthrough of any kind. Not even a small one. So it was just great frusturation feeling emotionally exhausted.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 06:35 PM
It looks like I have my girls this week which is my week and Monday through Wednesday of next week. My dad will be in town and said he will watch them so they don't have to go to the rec center of my W's moms house. W apparently will be to busy at work to be able to take them until thanksgiving day. At which point, I guess me and my dad will just cook up some food for ourselves that day and watch football since W appears to be backing out of coming over for dinner now. She isn't comfortable with my dad since my dad basically laid it on the line for her about what she is really doing and to quit kidding herself. She didn't like that.

Of course all the years my dad showed her complete and total love and help and support, now she writes him off because he called her situation what it really was. He also told her he still loves her and hopes she will come back one day. Then he referred to her as his Daughter and always will be.

Oh, she also blames my dad for not stepping in when I wasn't being who I should have been as a H and father. He agrees that he should have stepped in more. But my dad is not really into confrontation.

So anyways, I see how next week is starting to shape up now.

Kevin
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 06:44 PM
What are you planning on doing then Kevin as far as D? If you get a chance could use some advice on my thread. Thanks Kevin.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 06:55 PM
Well, my priest says I should hold off and wait for now. He says that when I get confirmed catholic that my graces will be stronger. He also made many other arguements against it that were valid arguements.

So I guess I am not going to file.

Kevin
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 07:07 PM
GREAT!
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 07:21 PM
Need a man's advice on my thread.
Posted By: GoBison Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 07:27 PM
Kevin how long before confirmation?

I am sure that your priest told you of other ways of receiving grace in the Catholic church including confession and spending time with the Eucharist(Jesus) at Eucharistic Adoration. Also daily Rosary and asking Mary to intercede on your behalf.

Kevin I have been following your thread along with several others as it is one of the highest viewed threads here. I pray that you know that waiting for Confirmation isn't going to be a cure all for your marriage and God will suddenly make things better. Your confirmation should be something between you and God and not a way to get your M back. You don't have to answer me on here I really don't care I just hope that you are doing it to become closer to God instead of getting your W back. And if she does come back all the better.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 07:30 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Once your W moves onto a second or third guy after the first A, you start to wonder if it really is over and you have just been kidding yourself.

Originally Posted By: K4D
Once your W moves onto a second or third guy after the first A, you start to wonder if it really is over and you have just been kidding yourself.

Originally Posted By: K4D
Once your W moves onto a second or third guy after the first A, you start to wonder if it really is over and you have just been kidding yourself.

Originally Posted By: K4D
Once your W moves onto a second or third guy after the first A, you start to wonder if it really is over and you have just been kidding yourself.

Originally Posted By: K4D
Once your W moves onto a second or third guy after the first A, you start to wonder if it really is over and you have just been kidding yourself.

Originally Posted By: K4D
Once your W moves onto a second or third guy after the first A, you start to wonder if it really is over and you have just been kidding yourself.

Originally Posted By: K4D
Once your W moves onto a second or third guy after the first A, you start to wonder if it really is over and you have just been kidding yourself.

Originally Posted By: K4D
Once your W moves onto a second or third guy after the first A, you start to wonder if it really is over and you have just been kidding yourself.

Originally Posted By: K4D
Once your W moves onto a second or third guy after the first A, you start to wonder if it really is over and you have just been kidding yourself.

Originally Posted By: K4D
Once your W moves onto a second or third guy after the first A, you start to wonder if it really is over and you have just been kidding yourself.

Originally Posted By: K4D
Once your W moves onto a second or third guy after the first A, you start to wonder if it really is over and you have just been kidding yourself.
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 07:31 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Originally Posted By: K4D
Once your W moves onto a second or third guy after the first A, you start to wonder if it really is over and you have just been kidding yourself.


[...]


So what are you trying to say? smile
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 07:44 PM
Quote:
Kevin how long before confirmation?


Probably December.

Quote:
I am sure that your priest told you of other ways of receiving grace in the Catholic church including confession and spending time with the Eucharist(Jesus) at Eucharistic Adoration. Also daily Rosary and asking Mary to intercede on your behalf.


I can't go to confession until I have been confirmed. But yes, we have talked about the rosary and I did it for a while and Mary and so forth. I am going to pick it back up again.

Quote:
Kevin I have been following your thread along with several others as it is one of the highest viewed threads here.


Yes, I noticed that not long ago. It is kind of embarrassing. I guess I post way to much.

Quote:
I pray that you know that waiting for Confirmation isn't going to be a cure all for your marriage and God will suddenly make things better. Your confirmation should be something between you and God and not a way to get your M back. You don't have to answer me on here I really don't care I just hope that you are doing it to become closer to God instead of getting your W back. And if she does come back all the better.


I started out going to the catholic church with my dad because I was so devastated and I thought the only one I could turn to was God for help. I honestly still feel that way. But as I was going, I started learning more and more about the catholic faith and it started drawing me in. I realized the more I went and became part of it, the greater divide was going to happen between me and my W as she is very anti-catholic. But I couldn't deny what I was learning in the church. Now I am going for my confirmation for myself and my own salvation. If graces help out, bonus. But that is not why I am becoming catholic. I am slowly at times working on my girls as well and trying to teach them. I get away from it sometimes and have to get back on it. My W doesn't say anything about it.

She actually started taking them back to church. I was shocked. But it is not a catholic church. But I was just so happy that she was taking them to church at all. I thought that was great.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 07:54 PM
One of my W's gripes about me was that I talked to much. She said most women want their H's to talk. She said with me she just wants to duct tape my mouth shut. I guess I still talk to much.

Kevin
Posted By: GoBison Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 08:01 PM
"One of the lessons of history is that nothing is often a good thing to do and always a clever thing to say."
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 08:13 PM
ok
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 08:14 PM
I am being asked if I still want tickets to the margarita ball which my W declined to go with me but is going anyways. Should I say yes and take a lady with me? That would blow W's mind, especially when she sees the lady I would be with.

Thoughts?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 08:18 PM
You know what. Nevermind. That wouldn't solve anything. It would just be a stupid tactic.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 08:24 PM
Pretty funny - you are conversing with yourself. As long as you dont start arguing with yourself, I think you will be ok.
Posted By: Virtually_Handsome Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 08:26 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
He says that when I get confirmed catholic that my graces will be stronger.

Didn't think much of this the first time I read it. Don't think much of it now.

I'd be mighty surpised if that's how the Big Guy works.

Just sayin'.
Posted By: Coach Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 08:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Virtually_Handsome
Originally Posted By: K4D
He says that when I get confirmed catholic that my graces will be stronger.

Didn't think much of this the first time I read it. Don't think much of it now.

I'd be mighty surpised if that's how the Big Guy works.

Just sayin'.


yeah, I'm with ya Jeff. I'm Catholic and that didn't resonate with me. I think the priest is saying with the sacrament of confirmation you will receive a
sacramental grace
with graces proper to the sacrament. Confirmation is about being annoited with chrism oil and sealed with the Gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit being the source of grace. You don't earn stripes to get grace. It's yours for the asking.

That being said you can be in a different state of grace, how close you are to God, just like any relationship. And like we know, relationships take time and love to thrive.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 08:56 PM
Maybe I misunderstood what he was saying. I am still learning this stuff.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/19/09 10:38 PM
Ok, so W is deciding to back out of thanksgiving now because she is uncomfortable with my dad there. My dad said if she was coming over he would go somewhere else for dinner. The girls want me and W to have thanksgiving dinner with them.

W says things have been contentious between us for a while and just doesn't know. I guess they have been.

Holidays. ugg.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 01:06 AM
Holidays are tough...especially those first ones. Who does what, who goes where? If she doesn't want to be there then just leave it. Don't bring it up anymore. You, your dad, and girls have a great day. Let her eat a Turkey TV dinner alone! It may give her a taste of what real divorced life is going to be like. She won't have her girls all the time. I for sure wouldn't cancel out my own dad. Its not like your W has been teetering on whether to stay M or not. Shes made up her mind.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 03:51 AM
I had a good talk with W tonight. She is not going to come, but she is going to make her awesome turkey that she makes every year and bring it over for me, my dad, and the girls. She and the girls are having lunch with her mom and stepdad for thanksgiving.

Startingover2, my W is never without friends of any type. She is the life of the party. A social butterfly. She will always have something to do with someone. It is hard to get her to breakaway for the kids.

She said that she may spend Christmas day with me and the girls. I won't have any family here and apparently her family seems to be leaving town for Christmas.

We worked out a new schedule for the girls and us. It seems fair to me.

She said that things seemed contentious lately and that she wasn't sure about being around me. I said I didn't realize things were contentious. I said I don't want that kind of relationship with you and I will work to not keep it that way. We just ended up having a good chat about things non relationship wise. It was the first time in a long time that there didn't seem to be any tension between us.

So I haven't quite decided yet whether or not I am going to take a date to the margarita ball. A friend of mine thinks I should and let my W see it. The date is 10 times hotter than my W. Not that my W isn't hot, she is. But this lady is even hotter. My friend seems to think it might put a bit of a jealous streak in my W if I do that. My friend says that if someone else finds value in me, my W might again to.

Who knows. It may be worth it just to see.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 03:51 AM
Of course it could backfire to.

Kevin
Posted By: Deep Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 04:24 AM
Hi Kevin, just saying dropping in.

Re the priest, could be he sensed you had some way to go in the journey of having a good relationship with God, and it was his way of telling you to give it time and due process.

By the way, I found it very helpful and a source of comfort in difficult times praying the Divine Mercy Chaplet, especially considering the background of the prayer. You might want to give it a go (if you haven't already).
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 04:46 AM
I have never heard of the Divine Mercy Chaplet before. How does it fair in comparison to the rosary?

Kevin
Posted By: Deep Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 04:53 AM
(not sure if this is allowed here, but excerpt from Wikipedia):

"The chaplet is often said as a rosary-based prayer with the same set of rosary beads used for reciting the Holy Rosary or the Chaplet of Holy Wounds. However, the chaplet may also be said without beads, usually by counting prayers on the fingertips.

According to Sister Faustina's visions, written in her diary, the chaplet's prayers for mercy are threefold: to obtain mercy, to trust in Christ's mercy, and to show mercy to others

Jesus also promised that anything can be obtained with this prayer if it is compatible with His will."

I'm just hoping this helps you be more at peace.
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 05:39 AM
I have found much peace since I started praying Divine Mercy Chaplet and going to Eucharistic Adoration at least once a week.
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 11:13 AM
Quote:
So I haven't quite decided yet whether or not I am going to take a date to the margarita ball. A friend of mine thinks I should and let my W see it. The date is 10 times hotter than my W. Not that my W isn't hot, she is. But this lady is even hotter. My friend seems to think it might put a bit of a jealous streak in my W if I do that. My friend says that if someone else finds value in me, my W might again to.

Who knows. It may be worth it just to see.




Reminds me of Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz. You have had the power this whole time and refuse to see it. Your friend is RIGHT. I would stop messing with all this nonsense of "working on yourself". There is NOTHING wrong with you NOW. Once you find someone else that trips your trigger all of this nonsense of working on yourself will take a back seat.

The thing you will find out is that it will be worth it for YOU to see. You are punishing yourself. Going out with a woman that is TEN TIMES HOTTER than your wife is a no brainer. It will show YOU that there is nothing wrong with you NOW and that you have value. It will show value to YOURSELF. Doesn't matter what it show to your wife, even though it very well could show her that.


It would also show your wife that you ARE able to make decisions.

Go for it. You have had the power all along Dorothy. Find someone else to take up your thoughts. Find someone that WANTS to be with you. It will show you that what you think are problems are really just nothing more than wanting what you can't have. Find somone that you CAN have.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 02:12 PM
I am having trouble understanding what your W has to do with YOU going to the ball or not. Do YOU want to go? If so, then go.

If you want to bring a date then do so. What is the big problem here? Pretend your W isn't even going... would YOU want to go?

As for the conversation - what happened there IMO was you finally started to back off and your W didn't like it so you actually apologized for backing off and she reeled you back in to the dynamic SHE wants. Do you think that was a good thing?

You apologized to her for backing off (what she wanted), only talking about kids/money (what she wanted), getting your own life and not making her the center of it (what she wanted) so *she* would feel more comfortable? What do you think about that? And what will you do when the next IM pops up and you begin to chatter and she says "if this isn't about kids/money" then I can't talk" (like she usually does)?
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 02:21 PM
I'm confused Kevin. Don't they say on rejoice ministries NOT to date to make someone jealous that it will only backfire. IMO it could go both ways but if you are in this with God and saving your M I don't think I would take a date. It's not what they teach you on that site. It's totally up to you.
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 03:06 PM
Quote:
I would stop messing with all this nonsense of "working on yourself". There is NOTHING wrong with you NOW.


I don't usually post on this thread but Gucci, as much as I do believe their is a "method to your madness," you are telling an admitted alcoholic and clearly unstable guy (Kevin, with all due respect a lot of us fit that bill here) that there is nothing wrong with him. It is sweet and romantic but obviously the one thing Kevin needs more than anything is to be able to be alone and deal with his compulsions and learn to focus his attention where he wants it. Dating, getting some attention is great, but if all the focus shifts on to a new hottie, he's doomed to end up right back here in a matter of time. Nothing shows me that he's prepared to handle a R with a new woman and maintain perspective.

That's my opinion. You give very aggressive advice which is often spot on but it would be cool if you were mindful of the fact that you don't know each individual and his/her capacities.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 03:16 PM
GuccMyster,

I see your points.

CG,

What I think is that by me backing off and setting boundaries, it was driving a wedge further between us. She was actually becoming more hostile and I wasn't creating a comfort zone to draw her back into. If a relationship is going to have a starting point, it can't be to further drive it apart.

One thing that has not felt comfortable is me trying to play hardball with W as that is not my natural personality. As a result, I don't do it very well and it backfires more than helps.

As far as the margarita ball goes, I have no real interest in going. It would only be a tactic to draw interest from W and raise her curiousity.

Goodfight,

Yes, Rejoice Ministries says to not date and that it could backfire on you and that is a concern of mine. God would not lead me into dating someone else. I also wouldn't be doing it to start a R with someone else.

A&K,

Insight appreciated. No offense taken.

It's raining here. Traffic was a nightmare this morning.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 03:26 PM
YOUR boundaries that YOU choose to set aren't about hostility or "playing hard ball". Without healthy boundaries a new kind of R cannot even begin to develop or flourish.

Boundaries do not drive wedges between people. In fact, it's quite the opposite... healthy boundaries bring people closer together.

Do you understand why healthy boundaries are crucial in all aspects of life? Do you understand HOW to set a healthy boundary in a kind and firm way?

You ramble on about how your W has had 3+ OM's. Unless you create some sort of healthy boundary for YOU regarding that, well, all you are doing is validating her OM's while still giving her a soft spot to land when SHE feels like it.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 03:28 PM
And, according to what your W has said most of what she dislikes about you is your neediness, your inability to make decisions and act like a strong man.

So, do you think being her soft spot to land when it suits her and being nothing to you when it suits her (and she is with OM) is showing her that you *are* strong and you can make decisions?
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 03:40 PM
Originally Posted By: CityGirl
And, according to what your W has said most of what she dislikes about you is your neediness, your inability to make decisions and act like a strong man.

So, do you think being her soft spot to land when it suits her and being nothing to you when it suits her (and she is with OM) is showing her that you *are* strong and you can make decisions?



We've gotta show others that we are strong enough and respect ourselves enough to let go of those who don't respect or value us.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 04:09 PM
Originally Posted By: TrentC
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Originally Posted By: K4D
Once your W moves onto a second or third guy after the first A, you start to wonder if it really is over and you have just been kidding yourself.


[...]


So what are you trying to say? smile


Some folks can't take a hint
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 04:19 PM
CG,

I think you can DB without being a hard@ss. If you are always a hard@ss, when does my W ever see that I can be fun to be around? When does she see I can be welcoming back when things go wrong in her R to OM? My goal isn't to rid myself of my W for the rest of my life. My goal is to be the better option. My goal is to show her that I am better than anyone else she is going to find out there. My goal is to show her that I can forgive and make things better. My goal is to make me better. I can still GAL and be a great dad and be fun to talk to and be around without being a hard@ss.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 04:34 PM
I was offered the tickets again today, but I went ahead and turned them down. I am not going to go. I could spend the money at the ball, or, or, or I could get the new Droid phone from Verizon next week which is totally freaking awesome.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 04:40 PM
ok - well then I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If you equate setting boundaries that are healthy and could help a new type of R flourish to being a hard ass, well, I guess we won't ever agree on the purpose of setting boundaries.

You don't need to be a hard ass, mean, unkind, rude or anything close to set loving boundaries in a detached way. Then again, you aren't detached so I can see why our opinions about boundaries are so vastly different.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 04:41 PM
3X offered tickets.

A sign, perchance?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 04:42 PM
CG,

The problem is when I set certain boundaries, W retreats and becomes hostile. It doesn't seem to draw her back to me, but instead pushes her away. I have already pushed her far enough away, I don't want to push her further away.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 04:43 PM
Quote:
3X offered tickets.

A sign, perchance?


A sign for what and from whom?

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 04:45 PM
Well of course she is hostile because things aren't going as she planned. You are letting her emotions and behaviors dictate YOUR actions.

I am sorry to have to be the one to break this to you but when she wants to talk, she needs something or feels like throwing you a tiny crumb she does. And she expects you to lap it up. When she has no need for you she treats you like crap.

Each time you start to show signs of detaching from HER control of course she doesn't like it! That means the power is shifting and the WAS wants to control it all.

We have been over this though so there is not much else I can say.
Posted By: BobbiJo Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 04:48 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
3X offered tickets.

A sign, perchance?


A sign for what and from whom?

Kevin


Seriously??? You know what he meant! That maybe you should go!

I doubt you will, but I highly recommend you go get the "Boundaries in Marriage" book by Cloud and Townsend, Christian authors. You can even get an audio version if you don't want to read it!

In short, if you establish boundaries, a person's initial reaction may be to pull away or get hostile, because you just changed the rules on them and they are thrown off...

If they value your relationship, it doesn't take too long for them to get on board.

If they continue to be hostile and pull away, then you figured out they don't value your relationship. Not just spouses, but friends, family members, etc etc...

The regular "Boundaries" book is great, too, more general. In the end it says that healthy boundaries help you realize which people in your life are there for the right reasons and which people are not good for you...
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 04:53 PM
BBJ,

I am not sure that I see much good to be gained by me going. If I take a date, it could very well backfire when W sees it, or it could make her jealous. But it may not as I am not up to the prestige she seems to love. The lady I would take would be more beautiful than her and that would be the only thing I would have going for me.

However, if I go without a date, and I see W with OM, I think that would be a bit demoralizing to me.

And if I go with a date, it may further justify to W that she is in the clear to continue pursuing OM and not have a concious about it.

And then there is the Droid phone that I really want to get on Friday. It is much more awesome than my blackberry.

Kevin
Posted By: BobbiJo Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 04:59 PM
I agree Kevin, don't go if you don't want to. That wasn't really my point. It is just that sometimes you ask people to spell things out for you that it seems like you already understand....

No comments re. Boundaries??
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 05:02 PM
Quote:
It is just that sometimes you ask people to spell things out for you that it seems like you already understand....


I knew that SM was saying to go. I was just asking who he thought that sign might be coming from as I don't think God would send me on a date being married. That would be my own choice.

Kevin
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 05:03 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D


I am not sure that I see much good to be gained by me going. If I take a date, it could very well backfire when W sees it, or it could make her jealous. The lady I would take would be more beautiful than her.

And if I go with a date, it may further justify to W that she is in the clear to continue pursuing OM and not have a concious about it.



I think it would do you a lot of good to go Kevin, specifically, with a date. You would have fun, you could interact with your date and others, etc.. How could it backfire? Your wife doesn't need any justification to continue with her actions...she's been doing it despite everything that you have done. So what if it makes her jealous? She's cheated on you, admittedly, with several men now for a long time. You would have a lot more going for you than just your date being more 'hot' than your wife! It would do you, your confidence, and your self-worth some good.

Your wife already believes that she's in the clear to continue her actions...she's been doing it for a long time now, and with multiple men! NOTHING you do at this point is going to justify to her that it's OK to keep doing what she's been doing for a long time with different men! She's already OK with what she's doing...obviously.

You have NOTHING to lose by taking that 'hot' date...and you have a lot to gain by doing it.


ps - I'm on your side.
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 05:05 PM
I agree. Take a date. Have fun.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 05:14 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
It is just that sometimes you ask people to spell things out for you that it seems like you already understand....


I knew that SM was saying to go. I was just asking who he thought that sign might be coming from as I don't think God would send me on a date being married. That would be my own choice.

Kevin


a sign from people that have realized that you have stagnated long enough and its time to take charge of the rest of your life.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 05:20 PM
Quote:
you have stagnated long enough and its time to take charge of the rest of your life.


It feels that way sometimes.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 05:40 PM
So I went to dinner with a friend last night and I start talking to the 2 waitresses. My friend looks at me and starts laughing and tells me I am such a natural flirt.

I guess I hadn't really thought about it as I just enjoy talking to people where ever I am at.

But I guess I am friendly and it can be taken that way. I always ask people about themselves.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 05:44 PM
Will W be there with a date? I don't know Kevin...are you strong enough to handle seeing that? Some people can. I don't think I could. Sure your date may be hot etc, but in the end its not where your heart is and its gonna show on your face. I think its a scene waiting to happen.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 05:49 PM
Quote:
Will W be there with a date? I don't know Kevin...are you strong enough to handle seeing that? Some people can. I don't think I could. Sure your date may be hot etc, but in the end its not where your heart is and its gonna show on your face. I think its a scene waiting to happen.


My assumption is always that my W will be with her date. She claims she is going as this womans date and is only going with her family because they are going. Then Sunday she claims that she is going to the Dallas Cowboys game with her sister in law who lives an hour and a half away. She says she got free tickets to the Cowboys game through someone she knows and that her sister in law is a huge Cowboys fan. Being that I know her sister in law, unless she has really changed in past years, she is not a huge football fan at all.

I take anything W says as false unless proven otherwise.

Yes, I am sure that if I see my W with a date, it would probably show in my own disapointment. I wouldn't create a scene. But it probably would show even with a date because you are right about where my heart is.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 05:51 PM
As far as assumptions go, the rule here is believe nothing you hear and only 50% of what you see. And from already confirming 2 guys and possibly a 3rd. I feel safe in making my assumptions.

My W is also a darn good actress. She should be given an Oscar for her performances.

Kevin
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 07:08 PM
Originally Posted By: BobbiJo


I doubt you will, but I highly recommend you go get the "Boundaries in Marriage" book by Cloud and Townsend, Christian authors. You can even get an audio version if you don't want to read it!

In short, if you establish boundaries, a person's initial reaction may be to pull away or get hostile, because you just changed the rules on them and they are thrown off...

If they value your relationship, it doesn't take too long for them to get on board.

If they continue to be hostile and pull away, then you figured out they don't value your relationship. Not just spouses, but friends, family members, etc etc...


The regular "Boundaries" book is great, too, more general. In the end it says that healthy boundaries help you realize which people in your life are there for the right reasons and which people are not good for you...


BINGO.

One of the misconceptions about DBing, in my opinion, is the "Do what works" thing. The problem is that people mis-define "works" as being "what doesn't make her/him angry" and "what makes her/him act nice towards me." Instead of as "what moves me further along down the path toward a mutually-healthy and committed marriage."

Sometimes one has to take a short-term "hit" in the "nice" department in order to solidify a healthier, longer-term gain.

Puppy
Posted By: 4luv Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 07:14 PM
wow....that boundaries thing that puppy just defined is soo true..."have to take a short term hit in the nice department." this just happened to me when i told my hubby that i would now be part of an open marriage (both emotionally or physical) and i didn't know if i had done something wrong in terms of DBing but we shall see. he responded with an "ok" buthas tried to push my limits in some of his actions and became more distant. but i know that eevn if our marriage works this is one thing that i will not waver on and if he doesn't abide by that then i don't want him or the marriage!
Posted By: M25 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 07:14 PM
This is an excellenct book. I wish I would have read it years ago! Puppy's advice is always right on target! I'm going to be re-reading my notes I took from this book. Boundaries is definitely something I need to get better at.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 07:55 PM
I will check out that book.

As far as the date goes, turns out she can't make it. She has prior plans she can't get out of. Thats fine. I will just not go. My dad arrives in town tomorrow night anyways. Driving from Charlotte.

He is talking about us going to the casino at the winstar in Oklahoma next weekend. That should be cool.

He also suggested sprinkling some holy water on the turkey that my W is baking for us when she brings it over just to be on the safe side. lol. Never know I guess. Maybe let her take the first bite or something.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 10:15 PM
W just sent me an email reminding me to buy tickets to D11's choir concert next Sunday night. She told me the section they would be sitting in and said I could to. Ya, right. Her mom would have a fit if I sat in that section. Who is she kidding. Not that her mom could do anything about it.

Holiday garbage. I used to love the holidays. It was my favorite time of year. Now I truly hate the holidays with a passion. Can they just hurry up and pass by?

Kevin
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/20/09 10:34 PM
Quote:

BINGO.

One of the misconceptions about DBing, in my opinion, is the "Do what works" thing. The problem is that people mis-define "works" as being "what doesn't make her/him angry" and "what makes her/him act nice towards me." Instead of as "what moves me further along down the path toward a mutually-healthy and committed marriage."

Sometimes one has to take a short-term "hit" in the "nice" department in order to solidify a healthier, longer-term gain.

Puppy


That is the brutal reality.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 12:00 AM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Quote:

BINGO.

One of the misconceptions about DBing, in my opinion, is the "Do what works" thing. The problem is that people mis-define "works" as being "what doesn't make her/him angry" and "what makes her/him act nice towards me." Instead of as "what moves me further along down the path toward a mutually-healthy and committed marriage."

Sometimes one has to take a short-term "hit" in the "nice" department in order to solidify a healthier, longer-term gain.

Puppy


That is the brutal reality.


Absolutely true. Many LBSers think making the WAS "mad" is a bad thing that MUST be avoided at all costs. It's conflict avoidance on the part of the LBSer that ends up often bringing about the very thing the LBSer fears the most; i.e., the WAS leaving and staying gone. And fwiw, the Boundaries book isn't only for Christians but I particularly suggest it for those who use their faith as a tool to justify inaction or "not hurting the WAS" with their conflict avoidance. If you want "permission" to set and enforce boundaries, (leaving that issue itself alone for now...) then definitely read the book.

Boundaries are healthy & mandatory. I read somewhere that "Disclipine is a form of love" and it clearly applied to raising children. Sometimes boundaries are the same thing for adults. Seems ironic but setting and enforcing boundaries requires discipline on the part of the one setting them, and it's not for the lazy or the cowardly. But it is for the successful DBers around here. Every one of us who has managed to reconcile AND stay m, has had to set and enforce a boundary that was not easy or comfortable. Boundaries & some form of healthy detachment from results, are what we have in common.
j-
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 12:04 AM
If you operate on the basis of fear...you're almost guaranteed to create the very thing you're afraid of!
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 05:15 AM
Originally Posted By: antlers
If you operate on the basis of fear...you're almost guaranteed to create the very thing you're afraid of!


i'll give that a nod of approval smile
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 06:37 AM
I posted another phrase on fear on this thread, that goes something like this:

"When you operate in fear, you are not operating in faith." Staying on message was essential for me, and for you K4, it is vital.

You get derailed often and don't seem to listen to the big advice. But I know others read this thread. Your life will improve a lot, when you change from within and learn to be a happier person, with or without your w. No one here can get you there. It's ALL up to you.
To me, the only time you've sounded happy & upbeat in this past year, was when you discussed the new woman. So figure this question out-- Leaving judgements aside, do you believe down deep, that that the only realistic way for you to detach from your w and begin moving on, is to have some other woman in your life?
Right or wrong, I don't see you finding another way to move on-- b/c you have not done so in almost a year here, and your thread gets the number of posts that 4 men do.

You would not be the first person to be unable to detach or move on, without a replacement. Most WAS's have OP in their lives for this very reason; they're Not happily married and yet they don't choose to leave or file for divorce=== until they have OP...Though LBSers will say "the WAS should have filed for divorce first, and THEN dated, not cheated!!..." the reality is that the WASs don't often do that first, (without someone in mind at least). For many LBSers and moving on, it's the same.

When you have an honest answer to this question, ask yourself one other question--are you willing to do what is needed to be a happy man? Answer these and then follow the logical implications. If you choose to date other women, then just be honest with them. If you want to date but you feel it's wrong, then either learn to do what we've said this past year and GAL and detach...or date and GAL, but for God's sake, choose.

You're blocking the whole concept of Detachment, and the only reason I can see for that is that you need some ow in your life b/c otherwise it's just too hard and frightening for you. That's not a judgement, just an observation over the past year. Hence my quote on "fear and faith" above, which I have told you many times but...anyway...

You're on the fence about life, and that's why you have polled so many people about everything, especially dating this "super hot" woman OR using it as a tactic to get your wife jealous OR a way for you to be happier and move on...you ask tons of questions about every choice and want "step by step" advice in how to handle your w, and darn it, you are just sooo confused.
Get off the fence. Make a choice and just live with it. You might be wrong but making no choices or changing the choices you make, is a lot like staying stuck, and it seems to me that being stuck is pretty much going to be the wrong choice. Sure hasn't worked yet, has it? You can't live, or love without risk. Just use your head as much as possible (Not losing your temper) for where the head goes, the heart will follow. Don't keep looking back. Once you learn a lesson from some negative experience or mistake, drop it and leave the past in the past. Create something with your remaining time on earth. You have done too much "waiting for it to happen".

j-
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 01:45 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
I posted another phrase on fear on this thread, that goes something like this:

"When you operate in fear, you are not operating in faith." Staying on message was essential for me, and for you K4, it is vital.

You get derailed often and don't seem to listen to the big advice. But I know others read this thread. Your life will improve a lot, when you change from within and learn to be a happier person, with or without your w. No one here can get you there. It's ALL up to you.
To me, the only time you've sounded happy & upbeat in this past year, was when you discussed the new woman. So figure this question out-- Leaving judgements aside, do you believe down deep, that that the only realistic way for you to detach from your w and begin moving on, is to have some other woman in your life?
Right or wrong, I don't see you finding another way to move on-- b/c you have not done so in almost a year here, and your thread gets the number of posts that 4 men do.

You would not be the first person to be unable to detach or move on, without a replacement. Most WAS's have OP in their lives for this very reason; they're Not happily married and yet they don't choose to leave or file for divorce=== until they have OP...Though LBSers will say "the WAS should have filed for divorce first, and THEN dated, not cheated!!..." the reality is that the WASs don't often do that first, (without someone in mind at least). For many LBSers and moving on, it's the same.

When you have an honest answer to this question, ask yourself one other question--are you willing to do what is needed to be a happy man? Answer these and then follow the logical implications. If you choose to date other women, then just be honest with them. If you want to date but you feel it's wrong, then either learn to do what we've said this past year and GAL and detach...or date and GAL, but for God's sake, choose.

You're blocking the whole concept of Detachment, and the only reason I can see for that is that you need some ow in your life b/c otherwise it's just too hard and frightening for you. That's not a judgement, just an observation over the past year. Hence my quote on "fear and faith" above, which I have told you many times but...anyway...

You're on the fence about life, and that's why you have polled so many people about everything, especially dating this "super hot" woman OR using it as a tactic to get your wife jealous OR a way for you to be happier and move on...you ask tons of questions about every choice and want "step by step" advice in how to handle your w, and darn it, you are just sooo confused.
Get off the fence. Make a choice and just live with it. You might be wrong but making no choices or changing the choices you make, is a lot like staying stuck, and it seems to me that being stuck is pretty much going to be the wrong choice. Sure hasn't worked yet, has it? You can't live, or love without risk. Just use your head as much as possible (Not losing your temper) for where the head goes, the heart will follow. Don't keep looking back. Once you learn a lesson from some negative experience or mistake, drop it and leave the past in the past. Create something with your remaining time on earth. You have done too much "waiting for it to happen".

j-




Great post! Really helped me. Kev, I hope it helped you too.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 02:21 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
I posted another phrase on fear on this thread, that goes something like this:

"When you operate in fear, you are not operating in faith." Staying on message was essential for me, and for you K4, it is vital.

You get derailed often and don't seem to listen to the big advice. But I know others read this thread. Your life will improve a lot, when you change from within and learn to be a happier person, with or without your w. No one here can get you there. It's ALL up to you.
To me, the only time you've sounded happy & upbeat in this past year, was when you discussed the new woman. So figure this question out-- Leaving judgements aside, do you believe down deep, that that the only realistic way for you to detach from your w and begin moving on, is to have some other woman in your life?
Right or wrong, I don't see you finding another way to move on-- b/c you have not done so in almost a year here, and your thread gets the number of posts that 4 men do.

You would not be the first person to be unable to detach or move on, without a replacement. Most WAS's have OP in their lives for this very reason; they're Not happily married and yet they don't choose to leave or file for divorce=== until they have OP...Though LBSers will say "the WAS should have filed for divorce first, and THEN dated, not cheated!!..." the reality is that the WASs don't often do that first, (without someone in mind at least). For many LBSers and moving on, it's the same.

When you have an honest answer to this question, ask yourself one other question--are you willing to do what is needed to be a happy man? Answer these and then follow the logical implications. If you choose to date other women, then just be honest with them. If you want to date but you feel it's wrong, then either learn to do what we've said this past year and GAL and detach...or date and GAL, but for God's sake, choose.

You're blocking the whole concept of Detachment, and the only reason I can see for that is that you need some ow in your life b/c otherwise it's just too hard and frightening for you. That's not a judgement, just an observation over the past year. Hence my quote on "fear and faith" above, which I have told you many times but...anyway...

You're on the fence about life, and that's why you have polled so many people about everything, especially dating this "super hot" woman OR using it as a tactic to get your wife jealous OR a way for you to be happier and move on...you ask tons of questions about every choice and want "step by step" advice in how to handle your w, and darn it, you are just sooo confused.
Get off the fence. Make a choice and just live with it. You might be wrong but making no choices or changing the choices you make, is a lot like staying stuck, and it seems to me that being stuck is pretty much going to be the wrong choice. Sure hasn't worked yet, has it? You can't live, or love without risk. Just use your head as much as possible (Not losing your temper) for where the head goes, the heart will follow. Don't keep looking back. Once you learn a lesson from some negative experience or mistake, drop it and leave the past in the past. Create something with your remaining time on earth. You have done too much "waiting for it to happen".

j-




whistle whistle whistle

Puppy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 03:56 PM
Quote:
Leaving judgements aside, do you believe down deep, that that the only realistic way for you to detach from your w and begin moving on, is to have some other woman in your life?


It feels that way sometimes. But then when I truly think about it, I am not sure there is another woman out there that can really bring me happiness. I think the only woman that can really make me happy is the one that I married.

Quote:
When you have an honest answer to this question, ask yourself one other question--are you willing to do what is needed to be a happy man?


Willing to? I am trying to accomplish this. But yes, you are right, quite often I live in a state of confusion. I question my own decisions to often. At times it prevents me from making the best and right decisions. At other times it is hard to follow through when I make up my mind and move forward. Questions pop up down the process that make me re-evaluate a decision that was made.

Kevin
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 04:02 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
Leaving judgements aside, do you believe down deep, that that the only realistic way for you to detach from your w and begin moving on, is to have some other woman in your life?


It feels that way sometimes. But then when I truly think about it, I am not sure there is another woman out there that can really bring me happiness. I think the only woman that can really make me happy is the one that I married.

Quote:
When you have an honest answer to this question, ask yourself one other question--are you willing to do what is needed to be a happy man?


Willing to? I am trying to accomplish this. But yes, you are right, quite often I live in a state of confusion. I question my own decisions to often. At times it prevents me from making the best and right decisions. At other times it is hard to follow through when I make up my mind and move forward. Questions pop up down the process that make me re-evaluate a decision that was made.

Kevin


There are other women out there that CAN truly bring you happiness! You're not doomed to an unhappy life IF your wife chooses to never come back! Thinking that way is negative, and simply not true. I know what you want...I understand it. But to say that you're not sure if there is another woman out there that can really bring you happiness...that's not being rational, logical, or truthful.


ps - I'm on your side.
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 04:32 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
Leaving judgements aside, do you believe down deep, that that the only realistic way for you to detach from your w and begin moving on, is to have some other woman in your life?


It feels that way sometimes. But then when I truly think about it, I am not sure there is another woman out there that can really bring me happiness. I think the only woman that can really make me happy is the one that I married.



K4D, I think you need to find happiness from within yourself, not from another person (male or female) - just my $.02
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 04:58 PM
I have to agree. If you are waiting for another woman (or your wife for that matter) to "bring" you happiness you are putting a terrible burden on that woman. You have to find your own happiness first. Sure, an intimate R, be it a marriage or other kind of R, can ENHANCE your life and make you happy but first you need to be happy with you or all R's you have in the future will fall victim to your expectations of someone "bringing" you happiness.

At some point you are going to have to make a choice to stop questioning every decision you make. If you make a good decision then learn from it. If you make a bad decision then learn from it. By making no decisions or wavering back and forth and living in a state of confusion you are learning nothing about yourself. We learn from the good decisions we make and we learn (usually more) from the not so good decisions we make. By planting yourself in the middle and not making *any* firm decisions for YOU and YOU alone you are learning nothing at all.

I have shared this with you before but I will share it again. When my anxiety started which eventually manifested into a full blown panic disorder I knew in my heart and logical mind something was not right. I spent hours pacing my apartment each day trying to catch my breath. I made the VERY BAD CHOICE of trying to keep it a secret. In turn, it became so bad I was afraid to leave my house and all that stress complicated my lupus. I was frightened and felt so locked in my own body. I knew I needed help but coping with my anxiety/panic the way I did (which was terribly unhealthy, dangerous to my health and very self destructive) did seem like a good solution at the time in my own deluded mind. I wasn't hiding things as well as I thought and wound up in the hospital. So, I made a bad choice that risked my health all because I was unsure what to do. I learned from it and getting help actually changed my life for the better.

So don't fear making the "bad" or "wrong" choice. If you do, you learn from it and that is how we gain wisdom in life.

You really do have to be okay on your own. My H told me last month he can't talk to his GF about me or how he feels about our separation because he is afraid of her reaction. Funny thing is he used to tell me the same thing. He couldn't talk to me about certain things because he was afraid of my reaction. At first I felt sad for him - how can you be with somebody in a very intimate R for nearly 2 years (his GF) and not be able to talk to her about such important things? The same patterns are repeating for him but only *he* can change that.

Make moves for YOU and YOU only.
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 05:21 PM
Your wife is the only one that can make you happy? Are you happy now? How happy has that wife really made you? My guess would be not that happy. She has put you thru heck.

I used to mix up lonliness and happiness with my exh. I think I wanted him back to cure the lonliness and not have to face the uncertainty of the future. The familiarity was much easier.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 05:27 PM
@K4D: when I truly think about it, I am not sure there is another woman out there that can really bring me happiness. I think the only woman that can really make me happy is the one that I married.

K4D: I haven't posted to your thread before, because you're getting a container ship's worth of input from people infinitely smarter than I, and because there has been a fair amount of faith-centered musing by and to you, and on questions of faith I am the Least-Qualified Man Standing.

This statement of yours, however, simply screams self-loathing and an obstinate refusal to be honest with yourself. Let's look at it backwards and forwards.

Think about how utterly random, how spectacularly unlikely, your coupling was. "Just one person" -- on a planet of 6.7 billion people, that would be pretty unlikely, don't you think? Why assume, for example, that The One is in your city or state or even country? What if that The One you're "supposed" to be with in the karmic sense of the term is in Bangladesh or Belgium or Belarus? If it were the case that there's only The One, it must be case that hundreds of millions of people are married to the wrong person.

So that randomness of event would certainly seem to suggest an equal probability of a similarly random event -- "falling in love" -- with someone else, whether you believe it or not; after all, there was a Day Before you met and fell in love with Mrs. K4D. Did you have no happiness before that moment?

Take me -- I met WAW in September 1987. She was new in the city, new in the office, and supposed to get a departmental orientation from a colleague of mine. He missed his bus and was late. Rather than have her sitting around gaping at people, I volunteered to do the orientation. A week later we dated; a week after that we steamed up the windows of her car; a week after that we "did it;" a week after that we were a couple -- and were, until February 2009. That's a Chaos Theoretician's dream string. How many variables could have taken a different value and rendered the entire Saga of Smiley's Person one of an infinity of Stories Not Told?

Some might say -- indeed, Tennis Partner and Good Christian Man Friend IRL has done so -- that this is evidence of God's Plan for me. No such sequence could possibly have been random, says GCMF. Angels on the head of a pin, etc.

Now I'm a Man of Strict Godlessness (a hell-bound status for which GCMF is remarkably tolerant, bless him) so the argument from Christly authority doesn't do much for me, but I'm perfectly willing to entertain it as a theoretical possibility. And when one does so, one reaches the inescapable conclusion that you, Mr. K4D, are wrong.

Let's say that the seemingly random meeting of K4D and Mrs., (or of me and Ex), was in fact God's Plan, and so in that sense you have happiness not simply because you are fulfilling God's Plan but because it is Mrs. K4D specifically that is enabling that Fulfilling Of.

My understanding of the whole "God's Plan" thing is that we fallible, finite humans can't comprehend it. One can believe in it, as a matter of faith, and in that sense "understand" that there is a plan and trust in God that the events of one's life are proceeding according to plan, but the details themselves? No -- mysterious ways and all that -- Isaiah 55:8-9, yes?

So, I ask GCMF at the precise moment he is about to unleash one of his killer alley serves, if it is possible that my seemingly random meeting with the then-future-ex-Mrs. SP is evidence of my life proceeding according to Plan, then isn't it also possible that it continues to proceed according to Plan, now that she's left me?

No, certainly not, divorce being an abomination, per Corinthians, Deuteronomy, Malachi, and the lot, says GCMF, busting out his New International.

But it's also the case, I say to GCMF, that you tell me your God will give me no burden I cannot carry. If that's true, doesn't that mean that I can carry this burden which must mean, in some sense, that I will prevail over it? And what does it mean to carry unhappiness and prevail if not to stop being unhappy? And since your God wants me to be happy, wouldn't that logically imply that, having been happy once -- according to Plan -- I will be so again?

(And what of happiness? Doesn't this chap Gary Thomas promote the notion that the Christian God doesn't even want you to be happy in marriage? This I personally find preposterous, but perhaps you don't....)

At this point GCMF shuts me up by running my sorry butt from one side of the court to the other, from baseline to net and back again, before smiting me a mighty Roger Federer-like blow, and I stop jabbering long enough to wheeze my way out of a looming heart-attack.

So to you, K4D, I pose the following proposition: Isn't it at least within the realm of possibility that you could be as happy -- or even more happy -- with another woman? That, in fact, there is a silver lining in your dark cloud, as there is in all of our dark clouds? And that by refusing to acknowledge this -- as willful an act of refusal and self-abnegation as one is likely to encounter hereabouts -- you're simply perpetuating your own misery because you want to perpetuate it, because you take Pride in your denial of possibility? That this sadness is, in some sense, a monstrous demonstration of Ego, of Self, of Hubris? And so by denying the possibility of happiness-after, you're thumbing your nose at what might be The Plan?

And even if you don't want to go all the way down that metaphysical road, isn't possible that by indulging your sadness to the point of self-denial of hope that you're really just showing off? I will never be happy, so there! Believe me, dude -- I was there.

News flash -- WAW doesn't care. She's gone, Jack! So who are you demonstrating this for? If it's your God, presumably He knows you're unhappy; if it's you, then you're really just engaging in a massive act of emotional masturbation, spilling the Tears of Onan if you will.
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 05:35 PM
Quote:
News flash -- WAW doesn't care. She's gone, Jack! So who are you demonstrating this for? If it's your God, presumably He knows you're unhappy; if it's you, then you're really just engaging in a massive act of emotional masturbation, spilling the Tears of Onan if you will.


YES.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 07:16 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
Leaving judgements aside, do you believe down deep, that that the only realistic way for you to detach from your w and begin moving on, is to have some other woman in your life?


It feels that way sometimes. But then when I truly think about it, I am not sure there is another woman out there that can really bring me happiness. I think the only woman that can really make me happy is the one that I married.

Quote:
When you have an honest answer to this question, ask yourself one other question--are you willing to do what is needed to be a happy man?


Willing to? I am trying to accomplish this. But yes, you are right, quite often I live in a state of confusion. I question my own decisions to often. At times it prevents me from making the best and right decisions. At other times it is hard to follow through when I make up my mind and move forward. Questions pop up down the process that make me re-evaluate a decision that was made.

Kevin


the inability to be happy on your own, or to think you must have a woman (let alone a particular one) in your life to "Make" you "happy" is THE fundamental problem you have. That is, again, why we've all so urged you to get c for yourself. You don't see it as a problem emotionally or psychologically speaking, but it is a huge one. And it probably has cost you the marriage you had. When you "need" someone else to "make you happy" it means you are a needer, not a giver and you bring only needs/deficits within, to the table...that's a problem. I wish you saw this. AND did something about it
Until you do, I see no hope for your situation to improve. Why would it?
j-
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 07:19 PM
Originally Posted By: ppenton
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
Leaving judgements aside, do you believe down deep, that that the only realistic way for you to detach from your w and begin moving on, is to have some other woman in your life?


It feels that way sometimes. But then when I truly think about it, I am not sure there is another woman out there that can really bring me happiness. I think the only woman that can really make me happy is the one that I married.



K4D, I think you need to find happiness from within yourself, not from another person (male or female) - just my $.02


exactly
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 07:24 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
@K4D: when I truly think about it, I am not sure there is another woman out there that can really bring me happiness. I think the only woman that can really make me happy is the one that I married.

K4D: I haven't posted to your thread before, because you're getting a container ship's worth of input from people infinitely smarter than I, and because there has been a fair amount of faith-centered musing by and to you, and on questions of faith I am the Least-Qualified Man Standing.

This statement of yours, however, simply screams self-loathing and an obstinate refusal to be honest with yourself. Let's look at it backwards and forwards.

Think about how utterly random, how spectacularly unlikely, your coupling was. "Just one person" -- on a planet of 6.7 billion people, that would be pretty unlikely, don't you think? Why assume, for example, that The One is in your city or state or even country? What if that The One you're "supposed" to be with in the karmic sense of the term is in Bangladesh or Belgium or Belarus? If it were the case that there's only The One, it must be case that hundreds of millions of people are married to the wrong person.

So that randomness of event would certainly seem to suggest an equal probability of a similarly random event -- "falling in love" -- with someone else, whether you believe it or not; after all, there was a Day Before you met and fell in love with Mrs. K4D. Did you have no happiness before that moment?

Take me -- I met WAW in September 1987. She was new in the city, new in the office, and supposed to get a departmental orientation from a colleague of mine. He missed his bus and was late. Rather than have her sitting around gaping at people, I volunteered to do the orientation. A week later we dated; a week after that we steamed up the windows of her car; a week after that we "did it;" a week after that we were a couple -- and were, until February 2009. That's a Chaos Theoretician's dream string. How many variables could have taken a different value and rendered the entire Saga of Smiley's Person one of an infinity of Stories Not Told?

Some might say -- indeed, Tennis Partner and Good Christian Man Friend IRL has done so -- that this is evidence of God's Plan for me. No such sequence could possibly have been random, says GCMF. Angels on the head of a pin, etc.

Now I'm a Man of Strict Godlessness (a hell-bound status for which GCMF is remarkably tolerant, bless him) so the argument from Christly authority doesn't do much for me, but I'm perfectly willing to entertain it as a theoretical possibility. And when one does so, one reaches the inescapable conclusion that you, Mr. K4D, are wrong.

Let's say that the seemingly random meeting of K4D and Mrs., (or of me and Ex), was in fact God's Plan, and so in that sense you have happiness not simply because you are fulfilling God's Plan but because it is Mrs. K4D specifically that is enabling that Fulfilling Of.

My understanding of the whole "God's Plan" thing is that we fallible, finite humans can't comprehend it. One can believe in it, as a matter of faith, and in that sense "understand" that there is a plan and trust in God that the events of one's life are proceeding according to plan, but the details themselves? No -- mysterious ways and all that -- Isaiah 55:8-9, yes?

So, I ask GCMF at the precise moment he is about to unleash one of his killer alley serves, if it is possible that my seemingly random meeting with the then-future-ex-Mrs. SP is evidence of my life proceeding according to Plan, then isn't it also possible that it continues to proceed according to Plan, now that she's left me?

No, certainly not, divorce being an abomination, per Corinthians, Deuteronomy, Malachi, and the lot, says GCMF, busting out his New International.

But it's also the case, I say to GCMF, that you tell me your God will give me no burden I cannot carry. If that's true, doesn't that mean that I can carry this burden which must mean, in some sense, that I will prevail over it? And what does it mean to carry unhappiness and prevail if not to stop being unhappy? And since your God wants me to be happy, wouldn't that logically imply that, having been happy once -- according to Plan -- I will be so again?

(And what of happiness? Doesn't this chap Gary Thomas promote the notion that the Christian God doesn't even want you to be happy in marriage? This I personally find preposterous, but perhaps you don't....)

At this point GCMF shuts me up by running my sorry butt from one side of the court to the other, from baseline to net and back again, before smiting me a mighty Roger Federer-like blow, and I stop jabbering long enough to wheeze my way out of a looming heart-attack.

So to you, K4D, I pose the following proposition: Isn't it at least within the realm of possibility that you could be as happy -- or even more happy -- with another woman? That, in fact, there is a silver lining in your dark cloud, as there is in all of our dark clouds? And that by refusing to acknowledge this -- as willful an act of refusal and self-abnegation as one is likely to encounter hereabouts -- you're simply perpetuating your own misery because you want to perpetuate it, because you take Pride in your denial of possibility? That this sadness is, in some sense, a monstrous demonstration of Ego, of Self, of Hubris? And so by denying the possibility of happiness-after, you're thumbing your nose at what might be The Plan?

And even if you don't want to go all the way down that metaphysical road, isn't possible that by indulging your sadness to the point of self-denial of hope that you're really just showing off? I will never be happy, so there! Believe me, dude -- I was there.

News flash -- WAW doesn't care. She's gone, Jack! So who are you demonstrating this for? If it's your God, presumably He knows you're unhappy; if it's you, then you're really just engaging in a massive act of emotional masturbation, spilling the Tears of Onan if you will.


While I may disagree on questions of faith and many of your conclusions, this is among the most articulate & intellectually provocative posts I've read here in years...Well done.
j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 07:31 PM
Quote:
And it probably has cost you the marriage you had.


Hopefully not. But not for me to say. I have plenty to give, but I have no way of giving anything to my W at this time. Until she wants something to do with me again, I can't give what isn't wanted.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 07:43 PM
You have plenty you can give your W now. Give her space. Give her your happiness that you create for yourself.

Did you ever look into taking pilot training?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 07:47 PM
KerryK,

I am giving her the space she has requested. And she is making the most of it. I am happy and cheerful around her which is not very often that I am around her.

I did look into pilot training. To much money right now.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 07:51 PM
This is an email from my BIL when I asked why should I hold off on filing after he talked to my W.

"The reason I think you should wait beyond the obvious, your priests advice, and my hope for your marriage to be reconciled is simply that W didn't say anything positive about getting back together, but didn't say anything negative. Why would you want to be the person to pull the trigger. There is a reason she has not filed. I also think you have given her reasons to not want to reconcile even after all she's done. I don't think you showing open frustration and anger every few weeks because she hasn't change her mind is going to work. It is going to take a year or two of love and kindness no matter what she does to convince her that you are different. Are you willing to wait that long and are you willing to have the strength and control to do that? Shocking her back to reality will not work. In the mean time, yes, who knows what things she might do. Have you ever read the book of Hosea? Think about how God felt when his chosen people time and time again turned away from him and basically broke the covenant that God made with them. You're in the same situation. Also, try finding a biography of St. Rita. Probably some pretty interesting similarities between her and her husband except in her case she was a saint and her husband was a great sinner.

The ball is in your court and I think if you could love her unconditionally, she would come back."


Kevin
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 07:55 PM
Any time I read "love unconditionally," I am suspect as to the other person's concept of HEALTHY unconditional love. Especially as it relates to boundaries.

It would be interesting if you would ask your BIL "I do love her unconditionally, but I also need to do what's healthiest for me. If I'm showing "frustration" and "anger," that's not my intention. I am TRYING to set mutually healthy BOUNDARIES.

Let me ask you, BIL, what boundaries do you think are fair for someone in my situation, while I love unconditionally? Jesus forgave the adulteress, but He also said to "go and sin no more." That was a boundary, expressed even while He was demonstrating His unconditional love for this woman."

Puppy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 08:37 PM
Quote:
If I'm showing "frustration" and "anger," that's not my intention. I am TRYING to set mutually healthy BOUNDARIES.


There have been some times when I have gone beyond setting a boundary when I let my frusturations get the best of me to where I just flat out wasn't nice and I said it like I saw it.

I think that is what he is referring to.

I don't think he has any issues with boundaries.

Kevin
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 08:41 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
If I'm showing "frustration" and "anger," that's not my intention. I am TRYING to set mutually healthy BOUNDARIES.


There have been some times when I have gone beyond setting a boundary when I let my frusturations get the best of me to where I just flat out wasn't nice and I said it like I saw it.

I think that is what he is referring to.

I don't think he has any issues with boundaries.

Kevin


He said:

Quote:
I don't think you showing open frustration and anger every few weeks because she hasn't change her mind is going to work. It is going to take a year or two of love and kindness no matter what she does to convince her that you are different.


What is he referring to? I'm sorry, and I could certainly be wrong, but when I see "it's going to take a year or two of love and kindness no matter what she does," that smacks to me like UN-BOUNDARIED CAKE-EATING that he wants you to put up with.

In fact, "no matter what she does" is pretty much the DEFINITION of enabling boundary-hopping, isn't it?

Puppy
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 08:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
If I'm showing "frustration" and "anger," that's not my intention. I am TRYING to set mutually healthy BOUNDARIES.


There have been some times when I have gone beyond setting a boundary when I let my frusturations get the best of me to where I just flat out wasn't nice and I said it like I saw it.

I think that is what he is referring to.

I don't think he has any issues with boundaries.

Kevin


He said:

Quote:
I don't think you showing open frustration and anger every few weeks because she hasn't change her mind is going to work. It is going to take a year or two of love and kindness no matter what she does to convince her that you are different.


What is he referring to? I'm sorry, and I could certainly be wrong, but when I see "it's going to take a year or two of love and kindness no matter what she does," that smacks to me like UN-BOUNDARIED CAKE-EATING that he wants you to put up with.

In fact, "no matter what she does" is pretty much the DEFINITION of enabling boundary-hopping, isn't it?

Puppy


I agree. If you are bending over backwards trying to get her to see this new nice and loving guy putting up with her crap for a year I think she will just smile and continue to cake eat. What does she have to lose? Nothing. She can play and still know that you will still be right there waiting for her.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 09:01 PM
I think I wonder what she has to lose by me setting boundaries also. She has plenty of guys at her disposal in better positions in life than I am. What does she have to lose there?

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D Rising #4 - 11/23/09 09:06 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I think I wonder what she has to lose by me setting boundaries also. She has plenty of guys at her disposal in better positions in life than I am. What does she have to lose there?

Kevin


there you go again kevin. what does SHE have to lose. what will SHE gain. what does SHE think. what about HER. HER. HER. HER.

Its got nothing to do with her. forget about her.

ITS ABOUT YOU! Start considering YOU.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc detachment - 11/24/09 07:12 AM
did your brother in law say anything about Detachment or DBing? Better take another poll and see where the wind is blowing to decide what to do...come on...last week it was filing...before that it was dating...before that it was standing...and that was in the past 3 weeks...maybe 4?
You cannot commit to a decision...it's as if you think this is a small idiosyncrasy, and I'm not bashing you; I"m telling you that you have some real stuff to work on before you can be an adult, let alone a man your w is going to want to be with... I remember many things you have said that were so striking to me, but you kind of passed them off as tiny asides....

You said you have "always been depressed but for some of the time your m, and then you got depressed IN the m and started drinking and"... ya da ya da....none of that is being addressed so of course you think you need your w to be happy b/c you cannot recall ever being happy except part of the time with her. Don't you see, that THAT is not normal or healthy? And If your wife died, with your view of happiness only with her, you'd be sad and down the rest of your life. And if that is not true, then figure out why. Is it that her death would be easier for you b/c a divorce is more of a rejection? If so, then we're talking about ego and self esteem, not HER and how she's the ONLY ONE who can "make" you happy.. Work on that...please

You said that you "don't know how to be a man" or to "man up" and that you preferred for your w to make all the choices in the home and finances and socially....see, to me, that's startling. Yeah, you actually said that. And To you, maybe it's nothing. But if you realized how that sounds to 90% of women, you'd have done something about it...I assume. And here's the thing that just occurred to me...
You don't really read and reflect on long posts or the many thoughtful ones here, MAYBE partly because you can barely keep up with the new posts...so maybe we need to back off and let you truly read the many things people have given to you with their time, thoughts, prayers, the experiences they've shared with you==many of which were deeply personal and painful...and often you never commented on them. You didn't seem to "get it" when someone made a point that others found blindingly obvious. Or maybe you had to process it more but then someone else posted and you never got back to it....or maybe we just didn't see much of any change...

Point is, you do get the number of posts here that 4 men might get, and still, even after a year, you cycle through the same old stuff every month. If you take some time off journalling here for advice on each conversation with your wife and thoughtfully read old posts, maybe you can read your own and realize that you repeat your words and behaviors quite a bit. Maybe you will have an insight and maybe it's lead you to action on your own. Look at the advice you do take in the big picture..if it requires little to no actual movement, you'll nearly always choose that route, and your second choice is to pursue. I now wonder if the more you get posts here, the less likely you are to carefully read what you have been given...and therefore so much wisdom from CG, Stuck, Strong, Ppenton and many many others...goes wasted. [/b]Why not try to back off a bit and take in what we have all said?
How much time do you spend on THIS site? Maybe that's a problem too. Get out in the real world and do stuff NOT related to getting your wife back...
(Wasn't another complaint your w had too much time on the computer?)
This isn't a punishment; it's a suggestion to you..what if you let go of us and this site (and your w!) [i]for awhile and read what was written to you and by you all those months ago, and recently...and then read thru the stages and see how you recycle thru them...inching forward. REFLECT & PRAY...Face it all and maybe you'll find that it's time you take a leap forward

j-
Posted By: CityGirl Re: detachment - 11/24/09 01:19 PM
IMO I think you really have to learn to set boundaries. You seem to equate boundaries with being a hard ass or being unkind or ugly. Boundaries are not about that. A few pages back there were some EXCELLENT posts about boundaries and why they are essential. I personally have not read the book(s) about boundaries that were suggested but why not give them a try?

I feel you base everything you do on not upsetting your W. When you finally started to set boundaries she did not like it. Why do you think that is? Because she realized she was no longer in total control of you. If you take a toy away from a 2 year old because they are not behaving do you just give it back because they throw a fit? No. You must follow through. And really, according to what you posted once you did start to set boundaries it seems your W started talking to you MORE about stuff other than kids/finances. Had you kept that boundary in tact which actually was HER desire you might have seen some further movement but you caved because she was showing you attention and now she is back in full control free to stomp on you when you are not useful to her and free to use you when she needs something (venting about her family for example).

And I do have to agree with 25, many of us make you long, personal and deep posts and you don't say a word about them, you don't engage in anything further and you usually just respond with "I ate pizza".

You just keep spinning and at some point you will need to plant your feet and do SOMETHING. Talk to your priest/C all you want but I highly urge you to remove your brother in law as one of your "counselors" as it seems he is keeping you spinning based on what HE thinks. HE is not living YOUR life.

Last night my H came here to drop something off that he could have easily put in the mail plus I had a bag of things for him that would have been too expensive to ship. I told him to text me when he arrived and I would meet him outside (boundary). I was nice and polite about it but I told him that is how the exchange of goods would take place. I met him outside, said a cheery hello, he asked how I was and I said GREAT and I gave him his stuff and he gave me mine. He said I looked good and I replied with a cheery THANKS and told him to have a nice night and waved goodbye. He stood there shuffling his feet trying to think of more to say. Sorry. No chit chat. The point of his stopping by was to exchange goods (boundary). I was polite, civil, kind but not going to stick around and get drawn into a chat about anything. He chose, I accepted and that is that. If that made him sad, mad, confused or whatever that is HIS issue. Not mine.

Does anything I did last night sound rude to you?

It is possible to set and execute boundaries with a smile, civility and kindness.
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: detachment - 11/24/09 02:13 PM
She may not like the boundaries...in fact she will probably hate them. Who would in her position? I really like what CG said. Smile, be cheery, no chit chat. Do what you need to do and be on your way.
Posted By: K4D Re: detachment - 11/24/09 02:52 PM
25, CG, SO2, and all others,

Quite frankly, there is more thrown on here than I can process or do. I DO read everything. Nothing goes unread. And it is true that at times I will want to respond, but then continue reading and get side tracked or feel there is to much to respond to. So I just acknowledge that I have read it. And sometimes I don't acknowledge every individual post. But believe me, I read them all. I take them all in. It is hard to process as much information as gets thrown at me though.

CG, I see nothing wrong with how you handled the situation. 25, I probably need a break from this site. SO2, I agree.

Kevin
Posted By: Tomato Re: detachment - 11/24/09 02:55 PM
YOOOO Bro!!

I was just supremely razzin you and your sorry a$$ team over on mine.

Be well and be giving and receiving (in that order) the love of Christ.

No expectations!
Posted By: Tomato Re: detachment - 11/24/09 02:59 PM
btw bro

some people including myself make a choice to find renewal and refreshment and just the chance to collect yourself and take a good hard look at things all around you maybe ...by taking a departure form here every now and again. I can't recall if you have done that either at all, recently ...??
Posted By: K4D Re: detachment - 11/24/09 03:02 PM
I occasionally do. But I don't stay gone very long.

Kevin
Posted By: Tomato Re: detachment - 11/24/09 03:06 PM
just noticed other people were advising you the same as my suggestion
Posted By: K4D Re: detachment - 11/24/09 03:14 PM
25,

I just noticed you changed the subject of my thread. Probably fitting.

Kevin
Posted By: ppenton Re: detachment - 11/24/09 04:15 PM
Thought this may help:

You need to understand in your body, soul and spirit, you
can make it. Regardless of all your problems that you are going through right now, God will take care of you. Believe it and thank the Lord daily that He is in complete control of your life! "Cast your cares on the LORD and he will sustain you; he will never let the righteous fall." Psalm 55:22
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: detachment - 11/24/09 06:13 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
25,

I just noticed you changed the subject of my thread. Probably fitting.

Kevin


Somehow the subject matter was blank and would not let me post without a topic. And I actually thought Detachment was what we were discussing, or trying to. So though it was accidental, now it seems oddly appropriate.

So, do you want to be here in 5 years, (or 15) doing the same old swinging from sadness/to anger/to superficial-temporary detachment/to a backslide/to a long scriptural post/& then START ALL OVER crazy cyclical routine? God, I hope not. But I fear you will remain here, b/c...well, why wouldn't you?

Don't answer. Instead for now, why not re-read the old posts so many people have sent you that struck you as on point? THINK LONG AND HARD ABOUT THEM...those underlying issues that re-surface so often...

K4, how long before you fix whatever prevented you from being happy in the first place? You've spent so much of your 35 years in an unhappy mode.

No one "makes us happy"...if others were truly responsible for how we feel and live, then your w could say "K did not "MAKE ME HAPPY" so I HAD TO LEAVE --no choice--b/c only OM can MAKE ME HAPPY"...

You get angry at the choices she has made...Yet you actually said you "can't be happy without her", but Free will goes both ways Kevin. You both are in charge of your choices & always have been. You choose to be stuck, whether by default--NOT choosing, or by second guessing yourself, or reversing course, or being paralyzed by fear of making the wrong move. So stop that.

Plus, to be fair to others who post for answers/guidance, perhaps you should take a step back and re-read where you were and whether you thought you'd still be here way back when. Read what we said 6, 9 and 11 months ago and what you said...(Maybe others will benefit by doing the same thing here or on their own threads. It's a good check now and then). So see how you feel after that. You might be moved to cry or yell or scream -but then maybe, just maybe you might....change and DETACH!!
j-
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: detachment - 11/24/09 06:57 PM
Sage advice, 25mlc.

Puppy
Posted By: K4D K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 08:09 PM
I guess asking W for a bit of a thanksgiving ML session is out of the question. It would probably piss off OM if he is still in the picture. Although, it could be worth asking just to piss him off. The problem is it would probably piss off my W to.

I just don't understand it. What could be so bad about a thanksgiving quickie with the W? I would be thankful for it.

blush

Kevin
Posted By: TrentC Re: detachment - 11/24/09 08:14 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I guess asking W for a bit of a thanksgiving ML session is out of the question.

[...]

I just don't understand it. What could be so bad about a thanksgiving quickie with the W?


Um, last time I checked your wife was considering getting a restraining order on you because you wouldn't leave her alone. And you think this is funny?

When you're ready to discuss your marriage like an adult, let us know.
Posted By: K4D Re: detachment - 11/24/09 08:17 PM
Sorry,

Just tried to insert a bit of humor for the holidays. My bad.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 08:17 PM
R u retarded? Sorry that was rude. But, seriously r u? Because that would explain a lot.

Even in jest, not responding with a simple thank you to both 25 and CG or any other comprehensive response would have been good.

Your response reminded me of Michael Keaton's character in Multiplicity. "I want pizza..." Just like CG said. How predictable. Seriously!?! I'm about to go off on a Dennis Miller rant...
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 08:19 PM
Ok, bad taste. I apologize. Geez. It is the holidays. Lighten up.

I won't bring it up again.

Thanks 25 and CG by the way.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 08:20 PM
I was throwing out some humor. It was a joke folks. I am not stupid enough to make a request like that.

Kevin
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 08:21 PM
Kevin, babe, seriously?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 08:23 PM
It was a joke. Nobody saw any humor in that? I guess I need to pay more attention to comedians. It obviously didn't hit a humorous nerve for anyone.

Nevermind. Please disregard. I am more intelligent than to do that.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 08:25 PM
I think this is a good opportunity to turn that request fantasy into some reality thinking.

Why would you WANT to sleep with your W when you darn well know she is sleeping with another man? I get the whole urge thing, but !ICK! Knowing that my exh was with another woman made my skin crawl towards him in that way.

Turn your thoughts around. Not to what you think you are missing. Think...ewwwwwww...you don't want her now anyway?

Make sense? I hope it came out right. smile
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 08:26 PM
Time and place bud. Time and place... The key to being a good comedian is timing. So dont quit your day job.

25 and others are seriously trying to help. Humor, like taking a break, is appropriate after you've done some WORK.

What have YOU done today to make YOURSELF a better person?
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 08:30 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I guess asking W for a bit of a thanksgiving ML session is out of the question. It would probably piss off OM if he is still in the picture. Although, it could be worth asking just to piss him off. The problem is it would probably piss off my W to.

I just don't understand it. What could be so bad about a thanksgiving quickie with the W? I would be thankful for it.

blush

Kevin


You should. You should, everytime she wants to talk about something that is not related to the children you should slip that question in. If she initiates the converstation there is nothing harrassing about asking for sex from your wife.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 08:32 PM
PMA,

I have been working on a project at work and thought I would take a short break.

As far as making me a better person today? I guess I won't know that until I leave work and see where I am at today.

My dad is in town visiting for the week so me and the girls are spending time with him. My W picks up the girls for the rest of the week tomorrow night. My dad is watching them each day while I am at work so he wants to just kick back, eat, watch football and relax on Thursday without having to entertain the girls.

Kevin
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 08:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Startingover2


Why would you WANT to sleep with your W when you darn well know she is sleeping with another man? I get the whole urge thing, but !ICK! Knowing that my exh was with another woman made my skin crawl towards him in that way.


Me too. I was disgusted.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 08:34 PM
Quote:
You should. You should, everytime she wants to talk about something that is not related to the children you should slip that question in. If she initiates the converstation there is nothing harrassing about asking for sex from your wife.


Except that it would not draw her closer to me. It would do quite the opposite.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 08:37 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Originally Posted By: K4D
I guess asking W for a bit of a thanksgiving ML session is out of the question. It would probably piss off OM if he is still in the picture. Although, it could be worth asking just to piss him off. The problem is it would probably piss off my W to.

I just don't understand it. What could be so bad about a thanksgiving quickie with the W? I would be thankful for it.

blush

Kevin


You should. You should, everytime she wants to talk about something that is not related to the children you should slip that question in. If she initiates the converstation there is nothing harrassing about asking for sex from your wife.


What a great idea. Don't forget to use hand gestures. Maybe use an Austin Powers accent as well.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 08:38 PM
I think that I will refrain from that.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 08:43 PM
Quote:
Kevin, babe, seriously?


Well SG, you get those moods sometimes. It just kind of sounds good now and then. lol.

Kevin
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 08:48 PM
Looks like your turkey day humor ruffled some feathers. grin



Hey... If you DO get the turkey day sex, the rest will be gravy.... grin

Of course I would recommend you be careful with her buns if it happens... laugh
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 08:50 PM
The good thing to know is that she has been fixed, so there won't be a bun in the oven. No worries there. lol.

grin

Kevin
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 08:56 PM
No buns in the oven? Oh.. bummer..

Well, looks like buttering her up won't work then... laugh
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 09:01 PM
lol.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 09:13 PM
I'm not planning on any thanksgiving quickies. If she asks for one, I will be strong and flatly refuse.

whistle

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 09:22 PM
Ewwwww.....sex with the exh is gross now.
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 09:32 PM
Quote:
I'm not planning on any thanksgiving quickies. If she asks for one, I will be strong and flatly refuse.


Confusious say that man who cooks own turkey becomes master baster... laugh
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 09:32 PM
Well... enough of the thanksgiving humor. I get to cook my very first turkey this year. Hopefully it will turn out good. You are all invited over to my place on Thursday.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 09:33 PM
Quote:
Confusious say that man who cooks own turkey becomes master baster...


And there you have it folks. lol. grin

Kevin
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 09:33 PM
Originally Posted By: gucci loafer
Quote:
I'm not planning on any thanksgiving quickies. If she asks for one, I will be strong and flatly refuse.


Confusious say that man who cooks own turkey becomes master baster... laugh



So long as we don't try to taste our own giblets . . . laugh

Puppy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 09:34 PM
I better pick up some protection on the way home.

Oops, was that out loud? DOH!

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 10:08 PM
Did you even read my @#$%^&* post??!! You know, the part where you take a step back and READ what people write to you, and then think about it???

I spent a lot of time on that post, like so many others spending so much time on your "revolving but never evolving" situation....but you just spend a lot of time & energy to avoid....working on you...

j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 10:18 PM
Quote:
Did you even read my @#$%^&* post??!! You know, the part where you take a step back and READ what people write to you, and then think about it???

I spent a lot of time on that post, like so many others spending so much time on your "revolving but never evolving" situation....but you just spend a lot of time & energy to avoid....working on you...


25,

Yes I read it. And yes I intend to follow through with it and going back through the posts that have been written to me. What is the deal? I am at work, took a few out to be humorous, kind of a way to lighten up the week with thanksgiving and you blow up about it. What kind of response were you wanting from me? I read it. I am going to do it. I agree with what you wrote.

I don't know what else you want me to say. Sorry I didn't stay in a totally serious mood today with a long thoughtful written out response for each and every statement in each and every post.

I apologize for that. I will make sure I am more aware of that next time.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 10:26 PM
This is exactly what 25 was trying to point out - this is a pattern. You have LOTS of people sticking by you here and your pattern is to deflect when the subject of detachment and boundaries come up. The very subject of many of us feeling ignored by your response (or lack of them) has been brought up frequently. Another pattern, another apology and the cycle repeats.

From my end (and apparently I am not alone in my thinking) it does get frustrating.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 10:30 PM
I didn't ignore anything. If I don't give a long drawn out statement to each statement made regarding something, you think I ignored it or didn't pay attention to it. I did pay attention to it.

I understand what was being said. Take a break from things and detach. Find myself. Let everyone and everything else go and work on me. I got it all and understood it all. I didn't ignore it or blow it off.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 10:35 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
I spent a lot of time on that post, like so many others spending so much time on your "revolving but never evolving" situation....but you just spend a lot of time & energy to avoid....working on you...

j (and CityGirl) - I dont know why you waste your time anymore by putting together such thoughtful (and colorful) posts only to be ignored.

What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.

Kevin - It would not hurt if you could paraphrase and validate what 25 and CG post so they dont feel like they are talking to a brick wall. When you do respond, it sure seems as if you are doing it from a defensive stand point.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 10:38 PM
I am honestly not ignoring them. I would not do that. As I said, I intend to go back and read through my threads and really reflect on things.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 10:50 PM
25,

I should have acknowledged what you wrote. I read it, and then I got back to work. Then later I came back on and had what I thought was a humorous thought and decided to try and be funny.

I should have taken the time to break down what you wrote and thoughtfully respond as all of your posts are very thoughtful, well written and full of excellent knowledge and advice. The same goes for CG's posts also.

I do apologize for that. I also admit that I get sidetracked easily when I break away from something and come back later. That is no excuse. I did read everything you wrote and I intend to do that.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/24/09 11:10 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
25,

I should have acknowledged what you wrote. I read it, and then I got back to work. Then later I came back on and had what I thought was a humorous thought and decided to try and be funny.

I should have taken the time to break down what you wrote and thoughtfully respond as all of your posts are very thoughtful, well written and full of excellent knowledge and advice. The same goes for CG's posts also.

I do apologize for that. I also admit that I get sidetracked easily when I break away from something and come back later. That is no excuse. I did read everything you wrote and I intend to do that.

Kevin

Divorce busting at its finest.

You got tested and you bowed down. Same behavior you exhibit with your wife.

Did you notice when you ignored 'them' and moved on, having fun, joking, they came back. You even got a @#$%^&*

But rather than continuing on, brushing off their behavior, and continue to have fun, you snapped back defensively then apologized and now they re gone. See a pattern here?

These ladies are good. "Obi-Van has trained you well, young Skywalker"
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 12:02 AM
Quote:
So long as we don't try to taste our own giblets . .


I'm sure you heard about the two gay men out for a walk when they looked over into one of the yards they were passing and noticed a dog licking his giblets....

One of the gay men said... "Wow, I wish I could do that"

Well, go ahead said his partner, just make sure he doesn't bite you"

laugh
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 01:51 AM
LMAO!!!!! laugh
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 04:30 AM
Quote:
Somehow the subject matter was blank and would not let me post without a topic. And I actually thought Detachment was what we were discussing, or trying to. So though it was accidental, now it seems oddly appropriate.


Understood.

Quote:
So, do you want to be here in 5 years, (or 15) doing the same old swinging from sadness/to anger/to superficial-temporary detachment/to a backslide/to a long scriptural post/& then START ALL OVER crazy cyclical routine? God, I hope not. But I fear you will remain here, b/c...well, why wouldn't you?

Don't answer. Instead for now, why not re-read the old posts so many people have sent you that struck you as on point? THINK LONG AND HARD ABOUT THEM...those underlying issues that re-surface so often...


Ok.

Quote:
K4, how long before you fix whatever prevented you from being happy in the first place? You've spent so much of your 35 years in an unhappy mode.


Who says I am not fixing it?

Quote:
No one "makes us happy"...if others were truly responsible for how we feel and live, then your w could say "K did not "MAKE ME HAPPY" so I HAD TO LEAVE --no choice--b/c only OM can MAKE ME HAPPY"...


I think that you have to get to a point where you can be happy without someone because nobody knows what the future holds. However, in saying that, lets be honest. Most people that claim they are happy with themselves and have "detached" and are able to move on, do so because they have created the thought and image of someone else in their life, thereby still putting their happiness in the hope of someone else. They detached from their current relationship/M only because of a happy thought of someone else filling in their needs that they can't get met in their M anymore. I see it way to often on this site by people claiming they have detached and are happy with themselves and it is really a fasad. They have just transferred their happiness to another person or the thought of another person.

Quote:
You get angry at the choices she has made...Yet you actually said you "can't be happy without her", but Free will goes both ways Kevin. You both are in charge of your choices & always have been. You choose to be stuck, whether by default--NOT choosing, or by second guessing yourself, or reversing course, or being paralyzed by fear of making the wrong move. So stop that.


Bad habit of mine.

Quote:
Plus, to be fair to others who post for answers/guidance, perhaps you should take a step back and re-read where you were and whether you thought you'd still be here way back when. Read what we said 6, 9 and 11 months ago and what you said...(Maybe others will benefit by doing the same thing here or on their own threads. It's a good check now and then). So see how you feel after that. You might be moved to cry or yell or scream -but then maybe, just maybe you might....change and DETACH!!
j-


I might. Your point is valid.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 04:32 AM
Quote:
Thought this may help:

You need to understand in your body, soul and spirit, you
can make it. Regardless of all your problems that you are going through right now, God will take care of you. Believe it and thank the Lord daily that He is in complete control of your life! "Cast your cares on the LORD and he will sustain you; he will never let the righteous fall." Psalm 55:22


Thank you ppenton. This is very true.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 04:42 AM
Quote:
IMO I think you really have to learn to set boundaries. You seem to equate boundaries with being a hard ass or being unkind or ugly. Boundaries are not about that. A few pages back there were some EXCELLENT posts about boundaries and why they are essential. I personally have not read the book(s) about boundaries that were suggested but why not give them a try?


I agree. I am going to.

Quote:
I feel you base everything you do on not upsetting your W. When you finally started to set boundaries she did not like it. Why do you think that is? Because she realized she was no longer in total control of you. If you take a toy away from a 2 year old because they are not behaving do you just give it back because they throw a fit? No. You must follow through. And really, according to what you posted once you did start to set boundaries it seems your W started talking to you MORE about stuff other than kids/finances. Had you kept that boundary in tact which actually was HER desire you might have seen some further movement but you caved because she was showing you attention and now she is back in full control free to stomp on you when you are not useful to her and free to use you when she needs something (venting about her family for example).


I caved because she was getting defensive and angry and backing further away from me. I felt like I was pushing her further away which was the opposite of what I wanted to to. I am still in control of the situation with myself. She doesn't decide or determine anything for me.

Quote:
And I do have to agree with 25, many of us make you long, personal and deep posts and you don't say a word about them, you don't engage in anything further and you usually just respond with "I ate pizza".


I get a lot posts to me. And I usually acknowledge them in some form of way, but I don't always think to or remember to. And what is wrong with pizza anyways? I have to have something to look forward to.

Quote:
You just keep spinning and at some point you will need to plant your feet and do SOMETHING. Talk to your priest/C all you want but I highly urge you to remove your brother in law as one of your "counselors" as it seems he is keeping you spinning based on what HE thinks. HE is not living YOUR life.


My BIL doesn't have all the answers and neither does he claim to. He has said many times he doesn't know how he would handle being in my situation. He just tries to help where he thinks he might be able to. He has been married for 16 years to my sister and they have 7 kids. I think he knows something about marriage and families. And he has known my W for 12+ years.

Quote:
Last night my H came here to drop something off that he could have easily put in the mail plus I had a bag of things for him that would have been too expensive to ship. I told him to text me when he arrived and I would meet him outside (boundary). I was nice and polite about it but I told him that is how the exchange of goods would take place. I met him outside, said a cheery hello, he asked how I was and I said GREAT and I gave him his stuff and he gave me mine. He said I looked good and I replied with a cheery THANKS and told him to have a nice night and waved goodbye. He stood there shuffling his feet trying to think of more to say. Sorry. No chit chat. The point of his stopping by was to exchange goods (boundary). I was polite, civil, kind but not going to stick around and get drawn into a chat about anything. He chose, I accepted and that is that. If that made him sad, mad, confused or whatever that is HIS issue. Not mine.

Does anything I did last night sound rude to you?


Nope. Not at all. Sounds like you have the boundaries thing down pat.

Quote:
It is possible to set and execute boundaries with a smile, civility and kindness.


Yup, I am trying to learn how to implement that the right way.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 04:48 AM
Quote:
Divorce busting at its finest.

You got tested and you bowed down. Same behavior you exhibit with your wife.

Did you notice when you ignored 'them' and moved on, having fun, joking, they came back. You even got a @#$%^&*

But rather than continuing on, brushing off their behavior, and continue to have fun, you snapped back defensively then apologized and now they re gone. See a pattern here?

These ladies are good. "Obi-Van has trained you well, young Skywalker"


Yes, I see my pattern. But I was not ignoring them or what they had to say. I should have been more attentive and thoughtful and responded first before popping in what I considered to be humorous thoughts. I should have been more considerate which I know is an issue my W has had with me and others have pointed out. So I know it is something I have to be better at focusing on. But I wasn't trying to be rude. But I see how it came across now.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 04:51 AM
Quote:
Kevin - It would not hurt if you could paraphrase and validate what 25 and CG post so they dont feel like they are talking to a brick wall. When you do respond, it sure seems as if you are doing it from a defensive stand point.


Agreed. Not trying to be defensive. Guess it comes across that way sometimes.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 04:59 AM
Quote:
This is exactly what 25 was trying to point out - this is a pattern. You have LOTS of people sticking by you here and your pattern is to deflect when the subject of detachment and boundaries come up. The very subject of many of us feeling ignored by your response (or lack of them) has been brought up frequently. Another pattern, another apology and the cycle repeats.

From my end (and apparently I am not alone in my thinking) it does get frustrating.


I don't know how many people are sticking by me and how many people just get entertainment out of this. I have a select few that stick by me and those are the ones that post the truly helpful advice. The rest probably read for what not to do or for something to occupy their time with. I have heard to many people say that have to see what is going to happen next.

That is not a very good feeling. I agree my situation has been nothing short of "What the heck is going on now?", But for once I would like to be able to say what is going on now is positive movement and growth and the start of turning things back around for me and my family.

I am not deflecting at all from when boundaries come up. I understand the point of boundaries. How could I not? It has been so drilled into my head that I can't help but understand the point of them now. Understanding it and executing it properly are 2 different things. I don't execute as well what I understand.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 05:11 AM
Quote:
Did you even read my @#$%^&* post??!! You know, the part where you take a step back and READ what people write to you, and then think about it???

I spent a lot of time on that post, like so many others spending so much time on your "revolving but never evolving" situation....but you just spend a lot of time & energy to avoid....working on you...

j-


You have spent a ton of time posting to me with extremely great insight and wisdom. I can't believe the amount of time you have put into me. Sometimes I think you know me better than I know myself. You have gone above and beyond for me. I don't know how I could ever repay you other than just following through with everything you have told me and taught me.

I know I am appreciative of it more than you realize. But I am not very good about making sure I show it. I really have to work on being far more considerate of the time everyone takes to post to me and help me out. That has been made aware to me today. I thought about it on the drive home from work today and tonight. Maybe you don't see my responses all the time the way you should due to my own lack of unintentional consideration, but don't think they don't affect me. I mull them over in my head quite a bit. Believe me I am thinking about them when I am off doing other things. I bring them up to other people around me because they do get through to me.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 05:27 AM
Quote:
did your brother in law say anything about Detachment or DBing? Better take another poll and see where the wind is blowing to decide what to do...come on...last week it was filing...before that it was dating...before that it was standing...and that was in the past 3 weeks...maybe 4?
You cannot commit to a decision...it's as if you think this is a small idiosyncrasy, and I'm not bashing you; I"m telling you that you have some real stuff to work on before you can be an adult, let alone a man your w is going to want to be with... I remember many things you have said that were so striking to me, but you kind of passed them off as tiny asides....


And you have been very good to point out those times and things to me to get through to me. I guess I didn't really consider getting peoples opinions and advice as taking polls. But I guess in a sense it becomes that sometimes. My BIL did not say anything about detaching and boundaries other than financially setting myself apart to protect myself.

Quote:
You said you have "always been depressed but for some of the time your m, and then you got depressed IN the m and started drinking and"... ya da ya da....none of that is being addressed so of course you think you need your w to be happy b/c you cannot recall ever being happy except part of the time with her. Don't you see, that THAT is not normal or healthy? And If your wife died, with your view of happiness only with her, you'd be sad and down the rest of your life. And if that is not true, then figure out why. Is it that her death would be easier for you b/c a divorce is more of a rejection? If so, then we're talking about ego and self esteem, not HER and how she's the ONLY ONE who can "make" you happy.. Work on that...please


Nothing I would say would be the right answer here. But, if something happened to her God forbid, I would at least feel comfortable with looking at dating again. Right now it is having to live with the ultimate betrayal. Call it what you will. Ego, self esteem, etc.

Quote:
You said that you "don't know how to be a man" or to "man up" and that you preferred for your w to make all the choices in the home and finances and socially....see, to me, that's startling. Yeah, you actually said that. And To you, maybe it's nothing. But if you realized how that sounds to 90% of women, you'd have done something about it...I assume. And here's the thing that just occurred to me...
You don't really read and reflect on long posts or the many thoughtful ones here, MAYBE partly because you can barely keep up with the new posts...so maybe we need to back off and let you truly read the many things people have given to you with their time, thoughts, prayers, the experiences they've shared with you==many of which were deeply personal and painful...and often you never commented on them. You didn't seem to "get it" when someone made a point that others found blindingly obvious. Or maybe you had to process it more but then someone else posted and you never got back to it....or maybe we just didn't see much of any change...


I started out making all the financial decisions, but eventually my W did not like it and wanted to run it herself. I let her but told her do not bounce anything. Through time I grew to where I didn't want to know anymore as things were not going as well as I would have liked them to. This was a cop out on my part and I should have become more involved at that time. Instead I chose to just tell her to tell me if we were good or not financially. That was a weakness on my part that I will never make again.

Quote:
Point is, you do get the number of posts here that 4 men might get, and still, even after a year, you cycle through the same old stuff every month. If you take some time off journalling here for advice on each conversation with your wife and thoughtfully read old posts, maybe you can read your own and realize that you repeat your words and behaviors quite a bit. Maybe you will have an insight and maybe it's lead you to action on your own. Look at the advice you do take in the big picture..if it requires little to no actual movement, you'll nearly always choose that route, and your second choice is to pursue. I now wonder if the more you get posts here, the less likely you are to carefully read what you have been given...and therefore so much wisdom from CG, Stuck, Strong, Ppenton and many many others...goes wasted. [/b]Why not try to back off a bit and take in what we have all said?


I agree.

Quote:
How much time do you spend on THIS site? Maybe that's a problem too. Get out in the real world and do stuff NOT related to getting your wife back...
(Wasn't another complaint your w had too much time on the computer?)


Actually it was not a complaint of my W for me being on the computer. But I actually started complaining to her about being on the computer to much. Ironically this is when the OM started coming into the picture. I do spend to much time on this site. I guess in a way it is some form of me searching for hope at times.

Quote:
This isn't a punishment; it's a suggestion to you..what if you let go of us and this site (and your w!) [i]for awhile and read what was written to you and by you all those months ago, and recently...and then read thru the stages and see how you recycle thru them...inching forward. REFLECT & PRAY...Face it all and maybe you'll find that it's time you take a leap forward


You may be right.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 05:30 AM
Quote:
I think this is a good opportunity to turn that request fantasy into some reality thinking.

Why would you WANT to sleep with your W when you darn well know she is sleeping with another man? I get the whole urge thing, but !ICK! Knowing that my exh was with another woman made my skin crawl towards him in that way.

Turn your thoughts around. Not to what you think you are missing. Think...ewwwwwww...you don't want her now anyway?

Make sense? I hope it came out right.


It makes sense and it did come out right.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 05:54 AM
It is just about midnight here in Dallas. I am calling it a night. Thank you everyone for your support and help.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 10:46 AM
"lets be honest. Most people that claim they are happy with themselves and have "detached" and are able to move on, do so because they have created the thought and image of someone else in their life, thereby still putting their happiness in the hope of someone else. They detached from their current relationship/M only because of a happy thought of someone else filling in their needs that they can't get met in their M anymore. I see it way to often on this site by people claiming they have detached and are happy with themselves and it is really a fasad. They have just transferred their happiness to another person or the thought of another person."

Pardon my French but that has got to be the stupidest thing you've said so far. After ALLLL this time, you don't understand a thing about detachment. We DO NOT detach because we know there is someone out there to fulfill our needs other than our spouses. We do it because we are REALLY happy just being with ourselves. If we find someone, that's great, but you find out that you're happy just being with you.

I can't believe after all that everyone has been trying to tell you and teach you, you come up with an ignorant statement like that.

Sorry if this post seems harsh, but after reading that, I actually felt pissed. I actually felt sorry for everyone who has posted to you and you not hearing anything.

That statement alone deserves an apology to 25, CG and the others. Geez Kevin, where do you come up with stuff like that?! It's rude and insulting to those of us who have really detached.
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 02:17 PM
What stuck said, I'm happy and have no other person in mind....
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 02:25 PM
I'm pretty sure that the very definition of "detachment" does NOT include becoming ATTACHED to someone else.

Square One.

Puppy
Posted By: Deep Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 02:35 PM
Well, I'd guess one of the benefits of detaching and "loving yourself" is that you do not need someone else to love you or complete you.

Keyword being need.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 02:43 PM
Quote:
"lets be honest. Most people that claim they are happy with themselves and have "detached" and are able to move on, do so because they have created the thought and image of someone else in their life, thereby still putting their happiness in the hope of someone else. They detached from their current relationship/M only because of a happy thought of someone else filling in their needs that they can't get met in their M anymore. I see it way to often on this site by people claiming they have detached and are happy with themselves and it is really a fasad. They have just transferred their happiness to another person or the thought of another person."


And I have come to realize that this board must be sponsered by Vaseline Intensive Care Hand Lotion.

If it makes you happy being with and sharing with another person then be happy. Detachment is not necessarily the solution to having a productive, fruitful, and happy life.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 02:48 PM
Quote:
You would not be the first person to be unable to detach or move on, without a replacement. Most WAS's have OP in their lives for this very reason; they're Not happily married and yet they don't choose to leave or file for divorce=== until they have OP...Though LBSers will say "the WAS should have filed for divorce first, and THEN dated, not cheated!!..." the reality is that the WASs don't often do that first, (without someone in mind at least). For many LBSers and moving on, it's the same.


In a sense, I said the same thing as 25. Only I classify the number as much higher than she does.

Didn't God himself say that it is not good for man to be alone? Isn't that why he created Eve? If our own creator said that, how could my statement be so ignorant? And I didn't say EVERYONE is like that, but I think more people are like that than are not.

Most people don't get left behind and think I will just be happy the rest of my life by myself. Most people look to the future with hope of someone else coming into their lives if they haven't already started bringing someone else into their life. Therefore, there is still a dependency on people for most people in some form of manner relationship wise.

I think I have heard most people on this site speak of someone else down the road if their current M does end. That is why I say they have not completely detached from the dependency of a relationship.

I won't apologize for that.

Stuck, you yourself have another woman in the wings that you have been spending time with should your current M ultimately fail. Ask yourself if you have truly detached because you are fine being alone the rest of your life, or if this other lady has helped in the process of you detaching from your W and giving you hope with someone else.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 02:50 PM
Quote:
Detachment is not necessarily the solution to having a productive, fruitful, and happy life.


I don't think it is the solution taken for most. Just my 2 cents.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 02:51 PM
It must be the weather, but my hands are sure dry today. What to do?
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 02:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen


And I have come to realize that this board must be sponsered by Vaseline Intensive Care Hand Lotion.



Heh.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 02:56 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
Detachment is not necessarily the solution to having a productive, fruitful, and happy life.


I don't think it is the solution taken for most. Just my 2 cents.

Kevin


Do you remember the story about the old lady and the african violets?
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 03:08 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Detachment is not necessarily the solution to having a productive, fruitful, and happy life.


Well, detatchment from a 'bad situation' certainly is necessary to having a productive, fruitful, and happy life!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 03:42 PM
Quote:
Do you remember the story about the old lady and the african violets?


No.

Kevin
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 04:14 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I think that you have to get to a point where you can be happy without someone because nobody knows what the future holds. However, in saying that, lets be honest.


Let the passive-aggressive wankery begin!

Originally Posted By: K4D
Most people that claim they are happy with themselves and have "detached" and are able to move on, do so because they have created the thought and image of someone else in their life, thereby still putting their happiness in the hope of someone else. They detached from their current relationship/M only because of a happy thought of someone else filling in their needs that they can't get met in their M anymore. I see it way to often on this site by people claiming they have detached and are happy with themselves and it is really a fasad. They have just transferred their happiness to another person or the thought of another person.


I had to read this three times to make sure that I understood what I was looking at.

I'm with stuck: with this one statement, you've insulted not only everyone who has spent months trying to help you in spite of yourself, but everyone here who is trying their damnedest to deal with one of the most difficult, emotionally draining events in their lives.

Just because you can't detach, you've convinced yourself that no one else "really" detaches, either. After all, it's easier to pretend that everyone is as flawed as you than to accept that maybe you can't hack it, that this is too much work for you.

You seem to have all of the answers, Kevin, so I guess our work here is done. Best of luck to you.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 04:22 PM
When you can tell me that you truly don't care if anyone else ever enters into your life again and you will be completely happy and fulfilled, then you have truly detached. I don't buy that most people can truly say that and mean it. But I also admit that I don't know what percentage that is either.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 04:26 PM
It is natural to want someone else in your life. Most people feel that desire. For most I am not sure it completely goes away. People need someone for the most part. Most people don't want to live the rest of their life alone. One of the greatest fears of most people is being alone for the rest of their life. There are plenty of reports to validate that.

I stand by what I said.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 04:28 PM
Also, most people who are alone wish they had someone. I fail to see why that is such an ignorant statement. There is a need, desire, want, etc for most people to have someone in their life.

Call it what you want.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 04:31 PM
I am with you, Trent.

Kevin, I am simply shocked that you had the audacity to write and post what you did. People, myself included, have worked harder than they have ever worked to detach and become emotionally stable and healthy and HAPPY without the aid of somebody else in the form of a intimate/romantic R - either in the real sense or simply the ideal of one. And, FWIW, many of us have done so under far dire circumstances than you can even begin to imagine and I hope you never have to. While you worry about the stupid BS that you do some of us get up each day and wonder if today will be the day our kidneys stop working or we will fall out of remission but you sure as hell don't see us taking polls on how to handle it on our own with inner strength and dedication. Then again, I don't use my "circumstance" as an excuse to not move forward, be happy and make the best damn life I can for myself.

I think Trent is correct, you *do* have all the answers and there is nothing more for us to exchange. I will echo the "best of luck to you" statement.

I really think you have no idea how terribly offensive your post was. Your W might treat you like crap but you treat others the same way. At least your W is open and treats you like crap because she feels like it. You treat people like crap under the guise of being a victim, stander, preacher or whatever it is this week. You can project your weakness all you want, it just won't fall on my ears or eyes anymore. And that my friend is a boundary.

Take care.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 04:36 PM
I didn't say everyone. I said more than most admit. Why do you think so many people start dating again after they have accepted their M as over? Because they have a need in their life that they want met in the form of a person/relationship.

Why is that so offensive to state that?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 04:39 PM
I agree with Antlers.

I think what they have really done is detach from a situation. But not from the need to have a person/relationship.

Kevin
Posted By: Deep Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 04:42 PM
Kevin, I'm not pretending to speak for anyone but my own take is this:

Sure, we're all social animals, we want interaction, affection, and love. Want, not need. We invested a LOT in Ms that went south, many of us here, to the point that co-dependency could be an understatement.

Our sitches woke us up to many things. We had to become whole again as a person to come out of it all. We learn to accept what we can't control, which includes choices and feelings of our WAS and / or future people in our lives.

We know our lives can be meaningful, important, relevant, irrespective of what others choose to do.

Detaching has nothing to do with the value others bring to your life; it simply means you let go of trying to control the who, when, why and how. It helps you become a person that attracts the who you want, and hopefully the when, how and why follows.
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 04:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Deep

Detaching has nothing to do with the value others bring to your life; it simply means you let go of trying to control the who, when, why and how. It helps you become a person that attracts the who you want, and hopefully the when, how and why follows.


That's a very good way of putting it.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 05:01 PM
Quote:
It helps you become a person that attracts the who you want, and hopefully the when, how and why follows.


WANT being the powerful word here. Is it really WANT or DESIRE or NEED? You are wanting someone for a reason. If you WANT someone, it is possibly because you have a need that you WANT met. Whether it is the need to not be lonely, the need to share with someone, etc. I think that WANT often correlates with NEED when it comes to people and relationships. I could go further into this, but I don't have the time today.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 05:09 PM
CG,

I think you are one of the people that truly has detached.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 05:10 PM
Well,

I guess if that was offensive, then I don't know what to say. It was just my POV on a lot of situations.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 05:14 PM
Happy Thanksgiving everyone?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 05:30 PM
Maybe I should just leave my thoughts out all together and just stick to whatever my daily or weekly situation is.

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 05:33 PM
Kevin, I dont really think you know what detachment or letting go is about. It has nothing to do with wanting, needing or desiring to be with another person.

To "let go" does not mean to stop caring.
It means I can't do it for someone else.

To "let go" is not to cut myself off.
It's the realization I can't control another.

To "let go" is not to enable,
but to allow learning from natural consequences.

To "let go" is to admit powerlessness
which means the outcome is not in my hands.

To "let go" is not to try to change or blame another.
It's to make the most of myself.

To "let go" is not to care for, but to care about.

To "let go" is not to fix, but to be supportive.

To "let go" is not to judge,
but to allow another to be a human being.

To "let go" is not to be in the middle arranging all the outcomes,
but to allow others to affect their own destinies.

To "let go" is not to be protective.
It's to permit another to face reality.

To "let go" is not to deny, but to accept.

To "let go" is not to nag, scold, or argue,
but instead to search out my own shortcomings and correct them.

To "let go" is not to criticize and regulate anybody,
but to try to become what I dream I can be.

To "let go" is not to adjust everything to my desires
but to take each day as it comes and cherish myself in it.

To "let go" is to not regret the past,
but to grow and live for the future.

To "let go" is to fear less and LOVE MYSELF MORE.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 06:59 PM
"Stuck, you yourself have another woman in the wings that you have been spending time with should your current M ultimately fail. Ask yourself if you have truly detached because you are fine being alone the rest of your life, or if this other lady has helped in the process of you detaching from your W and giving you hope with someone else."

Okay let's just get something straight. I wasn't hoping to get someone else. As a matter of fact, I really liked my independence and freedom. I didn't care if I found someone or not. I just knew in the end, I'd be okay with OR WITHOUT someone. Once I gave it up to God I just went with the flow.

Lo and behold, someone came along. I didn't plan for it, and quite frankly I didn't want to deal with any more drama. Could I live without my friend right now? Sure. Could I drop her if I wanted to and not feel emotionally attached as I did with my W. Definitely. Do I need my W? That's a big no.

You are the biggest co-dependent person I have ever seen on these boards.

Both you and I received the same advice from 25mlc and others about detachment and taking care of yourself. However, you want to stay convinced that you NEED SOMEONE to make you happy whereas I learned you don't.

If you really NEED someone to make you happy then go ahead. I know about your history with your mom and maybe a BIG part of you needs that comforting mom figure. I don't know.

If you really NEED someone go ahead and find someone already. Go ahead and sleep around. It's your perogative. But don't go on and make crass assumptions about the "majority" of people you've seen on here when they find someone else.

When we find someone else, it's just a consequence. We didn't choose to leave our original relationships. They were taken away. So what do you do? Stay stagnant and treading water while the other person moves on? Of course not. You LIVE. Whether that includes going out with someone or not, you make that choice.

No one chose to leave their R and just the fact that we're here shows that we are committed to the original M. Don't speak for the rest of us here because you haven't understood or reached that point yet.

For God's sake man go out and get laid like SM says and find hot attractive women to go out with if it makes you happy. I think that's the ONLY thing that's going to make you happy. You are just looking to us for validation to do so. Then in a few months when that woman you're seeing gets tired of taking care of a codependent child in a man's body, you're going to end up in the exact same position you are in now.

It's weak and immature. Grow up and grow a pair.

That's my 2x4 for the day.

Happy Thanksgiving.
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 07:01 PM
IMHO, I think its much healthier to detach on your own...without the crutch of someone else. Build yourself up. This year and a half has taught me just that. I DON'T NEED A MAN to be happy. Sure, I get lonly and who wouldn't love a companion? But I am not going to die tomorrow if I don't.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 07:18 PM
Originally Posted By: stuck808
For God's sake man go out and get laid like SM says and find hot attractive women to go out with if it makes you happy. I think that's the ONLY thing that's going to make you happy.


African Violets. I'm recommending African Violets.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 07:20 PM
Thanks all,

I feel sufficently corrected.

crazy

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 07:21 PM
My W told me to go out and get laid.

Strange. confused

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 07:37 PM
I gotta ask. Did you have any GF's before your W?

Did you need them to make you happy? And when you'd break up with them, would you do it or them?
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 07:49 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
My W told me to go out and get laid.

Strange. confused

Kevin


What? I hope u weren't foolish enough to ask her about hooking up? When did she say this?

Seriously!?! Do u have any self respect for yourself or not. Why would u possibly want to sleep w that harlot anyway?

I agree w Stuck. Man up Dawg. Enough of this teenage $hit!!!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 07:52 PM
Stuck,

Yes, I had girl friends before my W. I broke up with most of them. I wasn't ready to be tied down to them when I broke up with them. I also had a few that broke up with me. I enjoyed playing the field when I was younger.

I had fun with them. I enjoyed them. But I wasn't serious about a relationship with them. I usually just went out with them for fun and to get laid now and then. I spent more time with my friends than I did pursuing a relationship. The couple that broke up with me, I will admit that I did become attached to. But the others that I did not become attached to and just had a girl friends for fun, I ended up breaking up with them.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 07:54 PM
Quote:
What? I hope u weren't foolish enough to ask her about hooking up? When did she say this?

Seriously!?! Do u have any self respect for yourself or not. Why would u possibly want to sleep w that harlot anyway?

I agree w Stuck. Man up Dawg. Enough of this teenage $hit!!!


This was early on during the process PMA. She said it a couple of times a few months into it.

I don't consider my W a harlot even though in times of extreme frusturation I have blurted out things I wish I hadn't. She is just living a different lifestyle right now.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 07:57 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D

This was early on during the process PMA. She said it a couple of times a few months into it.

I don't consider my W a harlot even though in times of extreme frusturation I have blurted out things I wish I hadn't. She is just living a different lifestyle right now.
Kevin


In that case, why even mention it. The past is the past. Live in the present.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 07:57 PM
And Stuck,

I already know you are going to point out the trend. When I become attached, they leave. When I am detached, they hang around.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 07:59 PM
Quote:
In that case, why even mention it. The past is the past. Live in the present.


Stuck jogged my memory when he told me to go out and get laid.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 08:18 PM
"I already know you are going to point out the trend. When I become attached, they leave. When I am detached, they hang around."

Actually that wasn't what I was implying. I just wasn't sure if you were this clingy to all the people you've been with.

Seriously I think you are one person who needs to find companionship and asap. It's not a flaw or anything, sometimes there are those who need it. And let's face it, you've gone through this whole year staying stuck in this same place you are right now. No one's saying you need to find another wife. God knows you're not ready for that. But you keep twisting your beliefs saying how you're a stander, then want to give up, then assuming that the rest of us really want someone in our lives, when deep down it's what YOU want.

So go ahead and just do it already. Stop looking for validation and permission here to do what you want to do which is hook up with another woman. Just do it.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 08:32 PM
I will admit that I am someone that relies on companionship.

Kevin
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/25/09 09:03 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I will admit that I am someone that relies on companionship.

Kevin


Ok, now that is something you can work with your C and priest.
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/26/09 01:06 AM
Originally Posted By: Deep


Detaching has nothing to do with the value others bring to your life; it simply means you let go of trying to control the who, when, why and how. It helps you become a person that attracts the who you want, and hopefully the when, how and why follows.


Many of us (myself included) were co-dependent upon our spouses. We relied on them to make us happy, fulfill us and make us "feel whole." The truth is, the only person responsible for my happiness, fulfilment, wholeness is....ME. A relationship built on the belief that my spouse is supposed to make me happy is destined to fail. And, it's just unhealthy.

So, we all have to embrace the fact that we, and we alone, determine if we will be happy. You have to like yourself and have respect for yourself in order for you to be happy. That means respecting yourself enough not to be treated badly (being insulted, yelled at, run down by another). If you are treated badly, you played a part in LETTING it happen. Either you put up with it, or you simply accepted it as normal (maybe you thought you deserved it). So, like yourself enough to be treated well.

Once you understand, and accept, that you alone are responsible for your happiness, you stop putting your moods, emotions and feelings in someone else's hands. That doesn't mean you don't open yourself up to a relationship. It means that if spouse is having a bad day or is in a bad mood, it does not make you have a bad day/mood. And that's b/c your happiness does not depend upon SPOUSE's mood.


- written by another poster on this board
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/26/09 02:27 PM
Happy Thanksgiving Kev and everyone else on this thread!
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/26/09 05:05 PM
Hey Kev, I hoping the Cowboys win as I have them in a pool at my aunt's house.... smile
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/26/09 05:35 PM
Hey all,

I just want to wish each and everyone of you a very Happy Thanksgiving. I am thankful for all of you.

GO COWBOYS!!!!

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/27/09 02:14 PM
Well the Cowboys won! You should be thrilled right? smile

Hope your Thanksgiving went well. Mine made me realize that as much as I want things different, some things never change.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/27/09 05:45 PM
I am thrilled the Cowboys won. Yesterday was good. It was just me and my dad. We cooked a feast and watched football all day. I was grateful to have him there with me.

I wouldn't say somethings will never change SO2. From reading your post, it sounds like he is really thinking about you. Don't lose hope.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/27/09 05:55 PM
did you figure out the african violet reference yet?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/27/09 06:26 PM
SM,

I never looked it up. So no.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/27/09 07:04 PM
The Cowboys are our team too even though we don't live in Texas. Our choices here are the Chargers, Raiders, or the 49rs. Not a fan of any of those teams. My little one has a Cowboys sweatshirt!
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/28/09 03:14 AM
K4, I read this from time to time, HTH:

I am joy in expression! Life is fuller, richer, and more fun when I approach each day from the joy in my heart. The people I know and love bring me joy, but I can also choose to manifest happiness on my own. My favorite pastime may be riding in nature or strolling through city shops and streets. I may find one activity more enjoyable than the other, but I can still find joy in both. Even if I am doing mundane tasks--no matter what I choose to do--the joy I create comes from within. So whether I'm at dinner with friends or stuck in traffic, I remember happiness is an inside job. As I appreciate everything in life, I am joy in expression!
"He will yet fill your mouth with laughter, and your lips with shouts of joy."--Job 8:21
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/30/09 01:19 AM

Me and my dad are at D11's choir waiting for it to start. My W and her family are sitting one row down and on the other side. She glances over here now and then. It hurts to see her. She did come say hi for a minute and then went back to her seat. I wish I was sitting with her and D7.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/30/09 03:03 AM
Im sorry Kev. I know those thinks stink.

Hope you had a decent rest of the evening.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/30/09 06:13 AM
Thanks ppenton and SO2.

The rest of the evening went good. D11 did very well. I was proud of her. I told W she looked good after and she said thank you and that I did to. Me and my dad spent a minute with my girls and then we left. I also got flowers for D11 which was my W's suggestion. She liked them. MIL stayed away from me and avoided me at all costs. No surprise there.

I did go to the casino yesterday and tripled my money. I had fun doing it. Then I came home and did some research and practiced online and realized that I was just lucky at the casino. While I did have a pretty good strategy that seemed to work, according to the odds, I would have eventually lost it. At least it was some good entertainment.

I also ordered my motorola droid phone which is supposed to be here Tuesday. I am looking forward to playing with that. I will get my girls for the evening Tuesday and then not again until Friday. Saturday is D11's birthday and W and I are taking her and 3 of her friends to Six Flags for her birthday along with D7. W said she will probably hang with D7 while I go on the rides with the older girls. That should be an interesting day. She still has no real interest in me.

I guess the holidays are in full swing mode now. Tomorrow my dad leaves and heads back to Charlotte. I enjoyed his visit for the week.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/30/09 02:50 PM
Kevin, it sounds like you are doing great. You didn't gush and go overboard when W was around. Not much more you can do then that. Pleasant and civil.

Six Flags should be fun. Make it all about the girls and not worry about what W says or does...I know easier said than done.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/30/09 03:13 PM
Thanks SO2,

I think I am handling things better these days with my W. I have more composure over myself in front of her than I used to. While I still have feelings for her, I am able to control them around her.

Things have been much more civil with her. I am not getting really anymore communication out of her, but when we do communicate, there doesn't seem to be animosity from her anymore. I know what to avoid with her now in the way of subjects, etc.

That being said, I am already looking forward to the holidays being over and life getting back to normal.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/30/09 03:58 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D


That being said, I am already looking forward to the holidays being over and life getting back to normal.

Kevin


You and me both Kev...
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/30/09 10:56 PM
My W forwarded me an email stating all the Christmas stuff going on in the suburb she lives in for the month of December, but she didn't comment on any of it. She just forwarded it.

Is that a hint for me to take the girls? Is it something she may be interested in all of us doing? Is it just for my own benefit? What the heck.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/30/09 11:04 PM
You r detached remember so it's doesnt matter if you reply to her email with a "whats this for? or not" Being detached is all about not caring either way what she thinks or says. If a friend or family member sent you an email like this how would you reply? I'm guessing. Why did you forward me this?

Just my .02
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 11/30/09 11:24 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
My W forwarded me an email stating all the Christmas stuff going on in the suburb she lives in for the month of December, but she didn't comment on any of it. She just forwarded it.

Is that a hint for me to take the girls? Is it something she may be interested in all of us doing? Is it just for my own benefit? What the heck.

Kevin


an oops?
kelly is right above kevin in her address list.
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 02:48 PM
Kevin,

You are doing a great job. Wish I was doing as well as you are, mine would never invite me to do anything with D13. If you get a chance can you hop over to my thread and read the details.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 03:28 PM
PMA, SM, and GF,

Thanks. I think I will just not reply. If there is anything to it, she will bring it up at some point I'm sure.

I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of my motorola droid phone today. It is in transit. It will give me something to play with tonight while my girls are talking to the C. I also get my time in with the C tonight. I'm not sure what I am going to say tonight.

My W wanted to make sure I was getting the girls tonight. I'm not sure why. Like I would just forget about them on my night. DOH!

I'm not the one that drove off without them and then remembered she had kids 5 minutes later. Yes, this happened this past Friday. My W went to get the kids from her mom after work. She got to the house, and then left without the kids. 5 minutes later, she comes back and has remembered that she has kids that are supposed to go with her. I only know this because D11 sent me a text saying that her mom left without them. How does one forget their kids?

The interesting thing is that D11 referred to her mom by her moms name instead of mom. That struck me as odd.

I am looking forward to getting my girls tonight. Then they will be back with their mom until Friday night when I have them again for my week.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 03:41 PM
Why would a kid refer to their parent by their parents name instead of as mom or dad? Any ideas what is going on there?

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 04:28 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Why would a kid refer to their parent by their parents name instead of as mom or dad? Any ideas what is going on there?

Kevin


Don't speculate. She may just be doing that because she is 11. I had to smile when I read that though. Sometimes when my kids can't get my attention by MOM they will call me by my first name in a joking way.

Have fun with your girls and your new phone.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 04:38 PM
Thanks SO2,

It just struck me as odd. But I am sure it was nothing. I was actually more concerned that my W would show up to get the kids and then drive off without them and then remember 5 minutes later to come back and get them. I was kind of racking my brain on that one trying to figure that one out.

Unfortunately my bosses want to take us to lunch to day for a Christmas lunch since they are in town and won't be in town the rest of the month. While I am appreciative of that, it means I can't leave to go get my phone when it gets delivered. I have to wait til after work to get it. Dang it. lol. The anticipation is killing me.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 04:40 PM
I am checking the fedex tracking website every 15 minutes to see if it has been delivered yet. Still not delivered. lol.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 05:12 PM
Well,

My W asked if she could swap nights with me tonight and let me have the girls Thursday night instead of tonight so that they could go to her moms and set up a Christmas tree together. I said that is fine but I told her the girls do have to go to their C appointment. She said she will take them. I will just reschedule my C appointment for another night.

Apparently my W wants us all to do dinner for D11's birthday Friday night as a family and then Saturday we will be taking them with 3 of D11's friends to Six Flags.

I am going to get my Christmas tree out of the garage and have me and the girls set it up this weekend together. Wish W was going to be there to do it with us. But we will make a good time out of it regardless.

W already bought herself a real Christmas tree and set it up in the house with our girls. I really don't want to go inside and see it. I shouldn't have to since our fake tree is in the garage.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 06:46 PM
Any reason why you're so bummed about the holidays (aside from the sitch)?

Your W is inviting you to stuff, asking you for things not demanding like before. If you still want to save your M, now is the time to do it. Plus all the goodwill that comes along with the holidays might soften her up a bit.

Right now you just sound real depressed. You've got alot of positives that you just can't see.

Detach so you will be able to see the positives objectively.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 07:08 PM
Hi Stuck,

Quote:
Any reason why you're so bummed about the holidays (aside from the sitch)?


The sitch pretty much is the reason. I loved the holidays every year prior to this one because it was family filled and we did it together, everything. Decorating, get togethers, events, etc. It was great. Now, I am not invited to any of it with W and her family and so I kind of bums me out.

Quote:
Your W is inviting you to stuff, asking you for things not demanding like before. If you still want to save your M, now is the time to do it. Plus all the goodwill that comes along with the holidays might soften her up a bit.


The only thing W has done is asked me to do D11's birthday together. She hasn't invited me to anything else. And she is only doing D11's Birthday that way for D11. I hope the goodwill that comes with the holidays does soften her up. But I think her heart is with someone else. It isn't with me. I would agree that now is definitely the time to save the M if I can get that time in to do it with. I am going to make the most of every moment I can with her.

Quote:
Right now you just sound real depressed. You've got alot of positives that you just can't see.


I hope you are right about this. I don't think I am that depressed so much as I just want to speed through the holidays and get them done with unless there is some kind of miracle that takes place in the M which I would be eternally grateful for.

Quote:
Detach so you will be able to see the positives objectively.


Trying to. I am spending time with friends this holiday season and trying to enjoy the moments with them when I don't have my girls.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 07:15 PM
"The only thing W has done is asked me to do D11's birthday together. She hasn't invited me to anything else. "

Let's put it this way. This coming from the woman who pretty much drove you away to another state. That small invite (even if it was for your D) is a big step. She's extended olive branch after olive branch to you, but you don't see it or the changes aren't enough for you or fast enough.

Coach is a great example of sticking through things with patience. Be happy when you see them and not depressed. Or at least as depressed as you sound on these boards. At the very least, your D's shouldn't see you depressed.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 07:29 PM
Originally Posted By: stuck808


Coach is a great example of sticking through things with patience. Be happy when you see them and not depressed. Or at least as depressed as you sound on these boards. At the very least, your D's shouldn't see you depressed.


I agree! Hope4Us's old threads would be another great example. They were both far more patient than I could ever be!

Puppy
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 07:53 PM
Kevin,
Stuck is so right. What I wouldn't do to be included in something even if it was for our D's sake. Nothing in over a year when this mess all began.

Looking from the outside in you are doing great even though you don't see it.

As far as holidays, I wish they would just be over already. Barely made it through Thanksgiving and now Christmas. I would love for him to do something as a family for the kids sake.

Be happy, not depressed. You are making progress!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 08:13 PM
Well, maybe.

I just spoke with my W. Now I know that I am really making assumptions in my mind at this point. Anyways, she went home apparently for lunch to check and see if my phone was there since I had it delivered to the house instead of the apartment since I have already had one package never show up to the apartment. Wasn't going to risk that again. She didn't answer her phone while she was at the house and didn't call me back. She was gone from work for a good long while. My assumption is that she was not alone at the house. Anyways, what difference does it make.

Well, I asked if I could go ahead and have the girls tomorrow night instead of Thursday night since I had agreed to swap tonight for her and her mother, the infamous MIL. Oh the Christmas spirit just runs through me when it comes to the MIL. Anyways, apparently my W and MIL are all having a birthday dinner for D11 tomorrow night that I was not invited to or even told about. For some reason, MIL calls all the shots on any event to make sure I am not there even if it is a birthday dinner for my D11. Can you just feel my "love" towards this woman dwindling further if that was possible.

Here I am willing to give up my night to make her night better since she is depressed because their landscaping business is making less money this year. So my W wants to take the girls over there and my W and her sister want to buy a Christmas tree for MIL and have the girls go over and decorate and try and make it a good night for MIL. I agree to this. W says nothing about the birthday dinner they are all doing without me until I ask for the girls tomorrow night. Why do I have a heart to try and make such an evil MIL have a better night when she does everything in her power to make sure I am excluded from anything and everything. She doesn't allow my girls to talk about me in front of her. She doesn't allow me within sight of her or anywhere near her property. Yet I do things out of the goodness of my heart for her that I really don't have to do. I could say screw her. But I don't. She is such a bitter evil person. It pisses me off that nobody in the family will stand up to this grinch. They all sit over by themselves with my kids and I am not allowed anywhere near them.

Yet I don't know if my W has any care that I give up the girls to try and make events and evenings and things happy for her mom whom I have grown to just hate so much. Yet, I still try and be kind to a thankless bitter old woman. I have done this many times for MIL just to bring her some happiness. And what do I constantly get in return? SSDD.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 08:16 PM
If it wasn't for the MIL, nobody else has a problem with me being part of the family events especially with my own kids. Yet none of them have the guts to stand up to that lady.

Pathetic. Truly pathetic. I wish my girls didn't have such a corrupt and pathetic MIL.

Ok, I am done with that rant.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 08:22 PM
I just want to ask my W, why does nobody have the guts to stand up to MIL especially when it involves the kids. Why does everyone let MIL get away with that when the kids are involved? Such a gutless family. Ugg, I really have to let this drop. It is eating at me right now.

Kevin
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 08:22 PM
Do it for your D, not your MIL.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 08:32 PM
Quote:
Do it for your D, not your MIL.


You are right SG. That is exactly how I need to look at it. I almost sent this email to W. I am trying to debate whether or not to. It would probably do nothing other than make my W defensive and create tension between us. I truly am in a no win situation with that blasted MIL involved and my W's own decisions on top of it.

"I will let you take the kids tonight for your mom to make her night and Christmas better. I will postphone getting together with my friend.

I really shouldn't with as consistantly evil as your mom is towards me. To continue to exclude me from any and all events that involve my own kids, for everyone else to sit away from me with my kids because they are to gutless to stand up to her and say what is wrong is wrong when the kids are involved especially if it is for the kids.

But I am not heartless and evil like she is. So I will let her have something that would make her happy again at my own expense because even with as much as she has done to me and continues to do to me, I can't be the same way towards her.

I sincerely hope she enjoys her evening with the girls and the family."

Kevin
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 08:36 PM
Uh, yeah. That will make her defensive. Do right because it IS right. Put the evil MIL out of your mind.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 08:39 PM
I will do what is right SG and not send the email. I just got flustered. I will put the MIL out of my mind. Thanks.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 08:44 PM
"To continue to exclude me from any and all events that involve my own kids, for everyone else to sit away from me with my kids because they are to gutless to stand up to her and say what is wrong is wrong when the kids are involved especially if it is for the kids."

You're going to have to get over this. Having events alone without the other spouse there is what separated/divorced people do. Deal with it. What's going to happen when she gets a BF and starts taking trips together with him and your kids? Are you going to be upset because you were excluded?

It is what it is right now. Live as if she wasn't coming back already. detach.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 08:47 PM
I know Stuck. It doesn't mean I don't get frusturated when this stuff happens though. But yes, part of detaching would mean that it doesn't bother me anymore. I guess when it involves my kids, that is harder to deal with. When it is just the adults, it far less bothers me.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/01/09 09:24 PM
I told W go ahead and take the girls and make it a special evening for MIL. I said I will just get them on Thursday night so they can all keep their plans and not have to rearrange anything.

W sounded shocked and said "Thank you. I really appreciate that".

I said not a problem and I hope it helps her mom feel better about the holidays.

I think I stunned my W. Although I am not sure why she would be stunned. I always willingly move aside and work to make her mom feel comfortable or happy or whatever the situation may be. But it is good that she at least appreciates it and notices.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/02/09 04:30 AM
Testing out my Droid phone. This works nice.

Kevin
Posted By: TulsaTime Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/02/09 08:05 AM
Hey K4D,

When are you guys getting together again uo there in Dallas? I live in Tulsa, about a 4 hour drive. I'd like to meet some of the people I've been reading so much about.
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/02/09 01:58 PM
Quote:
Why do I have a heart to try and make such an evil MIL have a better night when she does everything in her power to make sure I am excluded from anything and everything.


Because it's the Christian thing to do?
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/02/09 02:08 PM
Originally Posted By: volleydog
Quote:
Why do I have a heart to try and make such an evil MIL have a better night when she does everything in her power to make sure I am excluded from anything and everything.


Because it's the Christian thing to do?


Exactly! There are always people in our lives that we don't like or don't get along with. The best thing you can do is be super nice and friendly. Then what could she possibly say then? I had a former SIL that was not nice to anyone. She was a miserable person. She would flat out ignore me. I finally started making conversation with her. Asking her how she was, showing interest in her life. Always with a big smile. At first she barely spoke, but then she looked stupid being that way. Guess what? Its hard to be continuously rude to someone when they are being nice to you. Your MIL won't have a thing to say when you are over the top friendly and accomodating. Tell your wife it sounds like a great idea and you hope they all have a fun time.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/02/09 03:26 PM
TulsaTime,

I don't know when we are getting together yet. I am going to see if there is a time this month that works for everyone. You are more than welcomed to join. I will keep you posted.

VD and SO2,

Surprisingly my W said that her mom wanted her to tell me thank you for last night. You could have knocked me over with a feather. W was very grateful as well.

Go figure. I wouldn't have expected that. Still no invite for D11's birthday dinner with them tonight though.

I guess it is one step at a time.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/02/09 06:42 PM
"Surprisingly my W said that her mom wanted her to tell me thank you for last night. You could have knocked me over with a feather. W was very grateful as well.

Go figure. I wouldn't have expected that. Still no invite for D11's birthday dinner with them tonight though."

Geez dude. You really don't know how to count your blessings. On the one hand you are amazed that they were grateful and then you complain about not having dinner together. GET OVER IT!

It's exactly what I was saying yesterday about how changes aren't going fast enough for YOU. Did you expect them to fall on their knees and kiss your feet because of what you did? Did you expect them to be so grateful that they'd beg you to go to the dinner?

If not, you really do show that.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/02/09 07:35 PM
Stuck,

I am not complaining. Actually a very stunning development just happened. If you know the history of animosity between me and my MIL, this will stun you.

My W just changed her email address to list her first name and middle name and took our last name out of it.

At the same time, I just got an IM from my W saying not to get my hopes up, but her mom is talking about inviting me over with the rest of the family for Christmas now. Apparently that gesture I did last night for her really touched her. W wanted to know if I was interested in coming over there for Christmas with them. I said ya. Let me know. I think that would be great. She said she will let me know.

Wow. Who would have thought? On the one hand, my W is further separating her name from us with her new email, on the other, somehow a miracle has occured within her mom to have a softening heart towards me now.

I'm stunned, and grateful Stuck.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/02/09 07:48 PM
That's great! Take it as the blessing it really is and build on it.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/02/09 08:00 PM
I will. Thanks Stuck.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/03/09 06:23 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I just want to ask my W, why does nobody have the guts to stand up to MIL especially when it involves the kids. Why does everyone let MIL get away with that when the kids are involved? Such a gutless family. Ugg, I really have to let this drop. It is eating at me right now.

Kevin


Kevin,
It's your job to stand up for yourself, not theirs or anyone else's. Ask yourself why you haven't stood up to her, not them...You could have calmly said "no, it's my time with them, maybe some other day"... or you could have granted the wish, which you did, but in a way that set a boundary and showed some spine. (E.G, "glad she appreciated it, b/c it's the last time since I don't intend to be shut out of my own d's lives any more, and I'd never treat her this way."....)

Nevertheless, you did not incur further wrath from her and You were "stunned" by your wife and her mother saying "thanks" and this seems to be a great comfort to you. Okay, that's fine. Maybe it will make some things easier. Perhaps your mil feels that you "get it" now and won't read into things too much if you get invited to something, so she can relax- and --so can your w.

In a recent post remarkable for its' lack of insight and your projection onto others, you said that you think "Most people that claim they are happy with themselves and have "detached" and are able to move on, have OP or do so because they have created the thought and image of someone else in their life, thereby still putting their happiness in the hope of someone else. They detached from their current relationship/M only because of a happy thought of someone else filling in their needs that they can't get met in their M anymore."

Well now Kevin, I feel like a mosquito in a nudist colony b/c I don't know where to begin. You are so wrong on so many levels here...and you still don't get it.

You simply projected your own dependency onto others, thinking that "most people" are as needy as you and that "most people" use others to fill their needs….Wow, I disagree so much. As for "relying on companionship" that's NOT what you are doing or saying, when you talk of "filling someone else's needs" and I hope to God you know that. Companionship is a human need. But you mean something else...something clingy that is a R with a woman, and with one exception whom you met at a bar recently, you have convinced yourself that the only woman who can "fill your needs" is the woman who doesn't want to fill them anymore. You had a M in which you admit you dumped the ahrd parts on her...the child care, the money earning max, the housework AND the decision making and the socializing...so I have to ask, what's different about you now? How would your m to her be different today? What would SHE get out of it? That's NOT a question to answer quickly....

You also say your w is very social and has a ton of friends. Sounds like she had a life or She GAL. So, Are you making any new friends or learning anything new and interesting, or appreciating how great your other family is, or joining new things or taking classes or...growing?

As for your numbers ("most people that claim"..) from my experience here, and in real life, I disagree strongly. Here are some of my observations.

I detached and moved on in my sitch, without an OM anywhere in sight or in my mind. Didn't even expect to date in the forseeable future, as my youngest was 8. I detached without OP. SO did CG, so did Brandnewday, so did FIB, so did Was2Sad, so did Iansofaway, so did Shark, AmyC, Holly06, BaseballAnnie, and so many others. How did you miss this??

Kevin, Anyone who "needed" OP to detach, by definition is NOT detaching. Yes, some people in life, some LBSers, do meet other folks and date them and THEN realize, "OMG, my WAS is not the one and only for me…" [b]and that lesson has value.
But that's not the lesson you took from it. tired

How did you miss that key point? GAL and detaching do NOT require OP...it's sort of the opposite... I guess all the celibate people we know are unfulfilled & unhealthy people with tons of unmet needs…(like your priest, or the folks whos' spouses are at war, or missing in action or simply far away, or the happy single people I know, the content widower down the street...)

You should meet some happy singles so you know they exist. Or some happily married people who would be happy even if their spouses died, they'd still learn to be content within, and on their own...and you don't have that yet-- but you need it to make any of your dreams come true.

You've been here a long time to still be posting about your wife at all. Unless she comes to you and says outright that she'd like to reconcile, what else is there to say, but how to work out the details of the children's lives? Until IF and when you have a real sign of something like a reconciliation, you'll keep spinning out of control over the simplest gestures or words and if anything, you push her farther away with this same old behavior. Isn't that clear to you by now? Maybe she wants a R with you that allows for your company around her and the girls so she doesn't have to continue being cold to you so that she's not in danger of "leading you on" or having you assume so much...negative or positive. You read so much into so much. You need to GAL so that you have other things in your head. You have too much time on your hands to face your empty hours. Fill them with a real life. And soon.

Stop caressing & analyzing the scraps your w gives you, i.e., a slight act of kindness or a word of thanks for caving in to her family, again, b/c you saved her a scene with her mom. If you had spent half the energy on GAL that you do on worrying and obsessing about your wife, imagine where your life would be by now. Imagine how you'd appear.

Also -your wife said "Don't get your hopes up" about the invite from her mom..so--you post it here with your hopes obviously getting higher--but I dread hearing the after action report of how that night goes, IF it even happens...K4, did you hear your wife? Why do you think she said that to you? What do you think she meant for you to realize?

And Why do you think she changed her name to remove the name you once shared? Does it seem like a gesture towards reconciliation to you?

I think She wants a civil R with you. You claim you want that with her family. So if they invite you to something, please take it easy! NO assumptions about anything. Otherwise you will set yourself (and your d's) up for the coming let down and frustration, all the time. Aren't you tired of this? It's self inflicted pain and drama Kevin. It really is. And if you do go there and spend ANY time with her family, do not drink at all. Sure, it goes without saying...(or does it? I bet they're a huge trigger for you - and that past holidays, or times you have been drinking around them, did NOT go well and they remember those times better than you do.)

Please, K4, make some holiday plans of your own so that Christmas doesn't suck for you, and so it won't suck for the girls when they're with you. NO self pity! It'll show to your girls and besides, Christmas is always December 25th and you have a calendar. You knew it was coming. We told you back in September to make plans of your own and here you are in December, wondering what OTHERS will include you in...that's not taking charge of your life or planning for your girls or doing a damn thing, Kevin...Wouldn't that look like "same old K" as far as your w is concerned?

Please-read Antlers post on detachment. I don't think you processed it. It's the first step of many you will have to take to happy on your own. I'm so sorry you cannot see this, or won't.

Okay, sorry but I have to ask....Why did you have your phone/gadget mailed to your wife? Yes sure sure--I realize you don't trust the mail at your apartment...blah blah blah, but honestly, there was no one else in your life you could ask? Um, if you truly are someone who "relies on companionship" you need some more companions!

And then you had to call her to track its' arrival? What? I just wonder what is going on in your head....and how old you think your behavior looks to her. On one hand, you should not obsess about your wife's opinions, or how she feels on a given day --but surely you can see that your behaviormatters and is viewed by others and that if you can't see how it'll be viewed, that does not help your cause.

Kevin, for this Christmas & New Year, I hope you decide to get the tools you need to grow into being the man you and God, and your parents want you to become. It will require changing your course. It will require action AND detachment. What are you so afraid of? Is what you are getting from this "interaction" with her, this sliver of hope you see and cling to, enough to live off of for the rest of your life?

If you "must" date some OW to get on your feet, emotionally, and you are honest with them, so be it. (Just Don't call it 'detachment" or tell US that "most people" do it or imply that we did. Those I mentioned to you above, well, we let go of our situations and left the results up to God and CHOSE to be happy with our lives as they were/are). But I think you are one of the few who really cannot do this on their own or you would have done it by now. No judgement there, but don't hurl it back and say we're all like that.

Just do what you need to go to learn to be a healthy man. Right now the caving & obsessing you do about your wife's every move, is very sad and toxic and not getting you anywhere while another year has passed! Is this where you thought you'd be now? The obsessing has gone on way too long for a man your age.

Re-read Antler's and CG's and Breakaway's posts and read up on Detachment and just reflect (for more than a day or two) on where you are this year and where you want to be next year...

For a minute or 20, imagine yourself happy and without your wife OR any OW, and see if the sky Will fall down if you don't have a woman in your bed "filling your needs"? No. The sky won't fall down. Maybe you'll read more, join more, know more, love more, learn more, do more, and be more...

What will you be doing to be a happy healthy mature man of 36, next year? It cannot be more of the same or you will get more of the same. tired

Remember the definition of insanity--"repeating the same behavior, but expecting different results." crazy

Reflect on that & reflection means pausing to think inwardly...and to ponder
....so don't post an immediate answer other than to say you got the post...but really pray on this stuff b/c so far it seems to me I've just wasted so much time and energy on you. I mean, you saying that detachment really means having OP for "most people" -was an aggressively ignorant statement and showed how little thought you put into what we say and how you missed a point we have hammered hard, and over a long period of time. I still can't believe you don't get it by now.

This is your life K, the stakes seem high to you, but you sure repeat your mistakes a lot. Why not change that?

Good luck,
J-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/03/09 08:55 AM
25, I got the post

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/03/09 04:43 PM
25,

I may not always like what you say or want to agree with it. But the truth is, most of what you say is very valid and it just sucks to hear and acknowledge that sometimes. And I always read what you say because I know the effort and time and thinking you put into it. And the fact that you are willing to for me is more reason to make sure I read everything you say and think about it.

You seem to really be able to pinpoint things for me quite often. At times I like to think I am moving along better, but then you point out things I am doing or saying that suggest otherwise. It is frusturating to read what you say to me, but that is because what you say to me is the truth. Sometimes the truth is frusturating to hear. I feel like every time you post to me, I have more work to do. And I can't deny what you post. It just makes me wonder if I am ever going to get out of this trap of not feeling complete and happy without my W.

Sometimes I don't post a response because there is nothing I can post to you. I can't disagree with what you are saying. So what else am I supposed to say other than just acknowledging that I read your post which I am trying to be better at.

Tonight I will spend some time really going through this latest post of yours and respond carefully after thinking about each thing in it you said. I have already read it twice. But again, there is not much I can add to or refute on your post. So I will just try and answer specific questions you asked after giving each one some thought. But at least you know that I have read it more than once and I am thinking about what you said.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/03/09 04:52 PM
Maybe that is what you are wanting to see is proof that I really am taking in what you say to me. I will try to make sure I don't leave any questions unanswered when ever you post to me. That also helps me to be more considerate of yours and everyone else's time on here. It also helps me to practice listening and thinking better.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/03/09 04:53 PM
Agree with 25...Being a needy person is no attractive. You show some independence it will be so good for you.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/03/09 05:02 PM
25,

I also know you want to see me apply to myself what you are taking the time to tell me and help me with. I am trying to apply much of it. It is that whole consistancy thing that gets me and I have trouble staying consistant when I start new things.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/03/09 05:21 PM
Just a quick note, FaithfulH said that his W reverted back to her maiden name when they were going through their process and she still has it as her maiden name. He said don't put any worries into that.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 07:31 AM
Quote:
Kevin,
It's your job to stand up for yourself, not theirs or anyone else's. Ask yourself why you haven't stood up to her, not them...You could have calmly said "no, it's my time with them, maybe some other day"... or you could have granted the wish, which you did, but in a way that set a boundary and showed some spine. (E.G, "glad she appreciated it, b/c it's the last time since I don't intend to be shut out of my own d's lives any more, and I'd never treat her this way."....)


I have stood up to her in the past which is one reason there is so much hatred towards me. But in this case, I have not been allowed to be seen by her, talk to her, be around her property, or even be in the same section as her when my kids were involved. How was I supposed to stand up to her? She has threatened me with a restraining order when I just made simple conversation with her.

Quote:
Nevertheless, you did not incur further wrath from her and You were "stunned" by your wife and her mother saying "thanks" and this seems to be a great comfort to you. Okay, that's fine. Maybe it will make some things easier. Perhaps your mil feels that you "get it" now and won't read into things too much if you get invited to something, so she can relax- and --so can your w.


I did get the official invite tonight for Christmas. However, it did bring up questions in my mind. I wasn't invited to my D11's birthday dinner last night with everyone. MIL and her H were going to go out of town for Christmas. Now they aren't due to lack of money. W I know told them that I have the girls for Christmas and I would definitely not give them up for that. I almost wonder if this is nothing more than to get my girls over there and she is willing to put up with my presence to have her grand daughters there for Christmas since she isn't leaving out of town now.

Also, I had a new bank card issued to me and when I went to pull money out of the ATM yesterday, it asked me if I wanted to pull from checking account 1 or 2. I figured since I have a new card it meant 2 as I have my own bank account. Well, I selected 2 and it ended up pulling from W's/our account instead of mine. When I discovered this I called her to let her know. She was cool with it, but said it was time to take me off of her/our account. I agreed with her and showed no emotion. But it bugged me.

Quote:
In a recent post remarkable for its' lack of insight and your projection onto others, you said that you think "Most people that claim they are happy with themselves and have "detached" and are able to move on, have OP or do so because they have created the thought and image of someone else in their life, thereby still putting their happiness in the hope of someone else. They detached from their current relationship/M only because of a happy thought of someone else filling in their needs that they can't get met in their M anymore."

Well now Kevin, I feel like a mosquito in a nudist colony b/c I don't know where to begin. You are so wrong on so many levels here...and you still don't get it.

You simply projected your own dependency onto others, thinking that "most people" are as needy as you and that "most people" use others to fill their needs….Wow, I disagree so much. As for "relying on companionship" that's NOT what you are doing or saying, when you talk of "filling someone else's needs" and I hope to God you know that. Companionship is a human need. But you mean something else...something clingy that is a R with a woman, and with one exception whom you met at a bar recently, you have convinced yourself that the only woman who can "fill your needs" is the woman who doesn't want to fill them anymore.


I can appreciate what you are saying here. However, you yourself have even posted that if things didn't work out with you and H, you know you are attractive and can find someone else in the future to make you happy. Even CG has talked about the latest attention and possibilites of someone else. Infact, everyone except a few such as volleydog have posted some sort of thought towards another person on here if things didn't work out. So in some ways, I stand by what I said. However, if it makes everyone feel better, I will retract it as to help them feel better about their own situations.

Quote:
You had a M in which you admit you dumped the ahrd parts on her...the child care, the money earning max, the housework AND the decision making and the socializing...so I have to ask, what's different about you now? How would your m to her be different today? What would SHE get out of it? That's NOT a question to answer quickly....

You also say your w is very social and has a ton of friends. Sounds like she had a life or She GAL. So, Are you making any new friends or learning anything new and interesting, or appreciating how great your other family is, or joining new things or taking classes or...growing?


Lets put this into the perspective it really is. My W used sex to try and get the guy she was after. She used it again when I blew that one out of the water. GAL for her? Not so sure. But I agree that GAL is not about her, but about me. I am actually thinking about taking a sewing class with D11 since it has become something she is really interested in. I think I could find it fun to as I have some ideas on things that would be creative and fun to give a try to.

Quote:
As for your numbers ("most people that claim"..) from my experience here, and in real life, I disagree strongly. Here are some of my observations.

I detached and moved on in my sitch, without an OM anywhere in sight or in my mind. Didn't even expect to date in the forseeable future, as my youngest was 8. I detached without OP. SO did CG, so did Brandnewday, so did FIB, so did Was2Sad, so did Iansofaway, so did Shark, AmyC, Holly06, BaseballAnnie, and so many others. How did you miss this??

Kevin, Anyone who "needed" OP to detach, by definition is NOT detaching. Yes, some people in life, some LBSers, do meet other folks and date them and THEN realize, "OMG, my WAS is not the one and only for me…" [b]and that lesson has value. But that's not the lesson you took from it.


No, it was not. And I am still not completely sure I am wrong on that one.

Quote:
How did you miss that key point? GAL and detaching do NOT require OP...it's sort of the opposite... I guess all the celibate people we know are unfulfilled & unhealthy people with tons of unmet needs…(like your priest, or the folks whos' spouses are at war, or missing in action or simply far away, or the happy single people I know, the content widower down the street...)

You should meet some happy singles so you know they exist. Or some happily married people who would be happy even if their spouses died, they'd still learn to be content within, and on their own...and you don't have that yet-- but you need it to make any of your dreams come true.


My priest is the exception. Most people I have met that are single are looking for someone. Again, it goes back to what I said.

Quote:
You've been here a long time to still be posting about your wife at all. Unless she comes to you and says outright that she'd like to reconcile, what else is there to say, but how to work out the details of the children's lives? Until IF and when you have a real sign of something like a reconciliation, you'll keep spinning out of control over the simplest gestures or words and if anything, you push her farther away with this same old behavior. Isn't that clear to you by now? Maybe she wants a R with you that allows for your company around her and the girls so she doesn't have to continue being cold to you so that she's not in danger of "leading you on" or having you assume so much...negative or positive. You read so much into so much. You need to GAL so that you have other things in your head. You have too much time on your hands to face your empty hours. Fill them with a real life. And soon.


I have moved on. I am talking with other women. I am moving forward without her. I want her back. But I am no longer sitting around waiting for her to come back. Call me a fallen stander. It is probably true. But I am not interested in spending the rest of my life alone even if it costs me my soul. Short sighted it is. But I have my limits which I have come to realize.

Quote:
Stop caressing & analyzing the scraps your w gives you, i.e., a slight act of kindness or a word of thanks for caving in to her family, again, b/c you saved her a scene with her mom. If you had spent half the energy on GAL that you do on worrying and obsessing about your wife, imagine where your life would be by now. Imagine how you'd appear.


This is now you reading my W's mind. She is so far gone and unless I hit the lottery or an awesome career soon, she has no interst in me.

Quote:
Also -your wife said "Don't get your hopes up" about the invite from her mom..so--you post it here with your hopes obviously getting higher--but I dread hearing the after action report of how that night goes, IF it even happens...K4, did you hear your wife? Why do you think she said that to you? What do you think she meant for you to realize?


She meant for me to realize that I need not to expect anything from her and her family like I have in the past.

Quote:
And Why do you think she changed her name to remove the name you once shared? Does it seem like a gesture towards reconciliation to you?


You seem to have this idea that I am somehow convinced that she wants to reconcile with me. I am no fool. I know for a fact that she wants nothing to do with me.

Quote:
I think She wants a civil R with you. You claim you want that with her family. So if they invite you to something, please take it easy! NO assumptions about anything. Otherwise you will set yourself (and your d's) up for the coming let down and frustration, all the time. Aren't you tired of this? It's self inflicted pain and drama Kevin. It really is. And if you do go there and spend ANY time with her family, do not drink at all. Sure, it goes without saying...(or does it? I bet they're a huge trigger for you - and that past holidays, or times you have been drinking around them, did NOT go well and they remember those times better than you do.)


My W's family is the biggest bunch of drinkers there is. My drinking had no affect on them. W's mom is truly a drunk that has never been able to move past it. They always laughed and told stories about my ventures with them.

Quote:
Please, K4, make some holiday plans of your own so that Christmas doesn't suck for you, and so it won't suck for the girls when they're with you. NO self pity! It'll show to your girls and besides, Christmas is always December 25th and you have a calendar. You knew it was coming. We told you back in September to make plans of your own and here you are in December, wondering what OTHERS will include you in...that's not taking charge of your life or planning for your girls or doing a damn thing, Kevin...Wouldn't that look like "same old K" as far as your w is concerned?


I admit I had no Christmas plans other than to just work through it and hope it passes by fast. However, I am planning on things to do with my kids. I am also going to get my guitar back and start playing again. I may never do anything with it other than dream. But I used to play in bands and I was pretty damn good. And I loved it and still do. I think I can get my girls really interested in music. That is something I truly love doing. It was always like an esacpe for me when I was younger. Strange thing is that W asked if me and the girls could come over this Saturday to help her decorate her tree since she didn't get to do it with the girls when she had them. I know it was nothing more than just to get the girls over there so she didn't feel alone in decorating. But at the same time in my mind, she would have them the following week to do it. Why ask me to come over with them to do it? Throws me off.

Quote:
Please-read Antlers post on detachment. I don't think you processed it. It's the first step of many you will have to take to happy on your own. I'm so sorry you cannot see this, or won't.

Okay, sorry but I have to ask....Why did you have your phone/gadget mailed to your wife? Yes sure sure--I realize you don't trust the mail at your apartment...blah blah blah, but honestly, there was no one else in your life you could ask? Um, if you truly are someone who "relies on companionship" you need some more companions!


Does this truly matter? I still have a lot of my mail delivered to her/our house.

Quote:
And then you had to call her to track its' arrival? What? I just wonder what is going on in your head....and how old you think your behavior looks to her. On one hand, you should not obsess about your wife's opinions, or how she feels on a given day --but surely you can see that your behaviormatters and is viewed by others and that if you can't see how it'll be viewed, that does not help your cause.

Kevin, for this Christmas & New Year, I hope you decide to get the tools you need to grow into being the man you and God, and your parents want you to become. It will require changing your course. It will require action AND detachment. What are you so afraid of? Is what you are getting from this "interaction" with her, this sliver of hope you see and cling to, enough to live off of for the rest of your life?


No. Hince, I was damn close to filing myself.

Quote:
If you "must" date some OW to get on your feet, emotionally, and you are honest with them, so be it. (Just Don't call it 'detachment" or tell US that "most people" do it or imply that we did. Those I mentioned to you above, well, we let go of our situations and left the results up to God and CHOSE to be happy with our lives as they were/are). But I think you are one of the few who really cannot do this on their own or you would have done it by now. No judgement there, but don't hurl it back and say we're all like that.

Just do what you need to go to learn to be a healthy man. Right now the caving & obsessing you do about your wife's every move, is very sad and toxic and not getting you anywhere while another year has passed! Is this where you thought you'd be now? The obsessing has gone on way too long for a man your age.

Re-read Antler's and CG's and Breakaway's posts and read up on Detachment and just reflect (for more than a day or two) on where you are this year and where you want to be next year...

For a minute or 20, imagine yourself happy and without your wife OR any OW, and see if the sky Will fall down if you don't have a woman in your bed "filling your needs"? No. The sky won't fall down. Maybe you'll read more, join more, know more, love more, learn more, do more, and be more...

What will you be doing to be a happy healthy mature man of 36, next year? It cannot be more of the same or you will get more of the same.

Remember the definition of insanity--"repeating the same behavior, but expecting different results."

Reflect on that & reflection means pausing to think inwardly...and to ponder....so don't post an immediate answer other than to say you got the post...but really pray on this stuff b/c so far it seems to me I've just wasted so much time and energy on you. I mean, you saying that detachment really means having OP for "most people" -was an aggressively ignorant statement and showed how little thought you put into what we say and how you missed a point we have hammered hard, and over a long period of time. I still can't believe you don't get it by now.

This is your life K, the stakes seem high to you, but you sure repeat your mistakes a lot. Why not change that?


I don't think you really get it. I am not stuck on her like I used to be. I am moving forward with my life. And I am doing it in a way that is totally contradictory to what I believe. But I am doing it. Of course I want her back. But I am moving forward without her as if she is not going to be there. I don't necessarily post all of my daily interactions, thoughts, movements, etc because I am not interested in some people coming down on me because I finally caved and had enough. I feel like I am more in Stuck808's mode. I am hoping God restores us, but I am done waiting. If He restores us, I will take it. If he doesn't, I'm going forward. You can throw out the whole standers thing. I'm done with that and having a good time in the process.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 07:43 AM
I would love to have my W back. But I am moving forward as if she will never be back. And it doesn't matter what other people think about whether I failed as a stander. I DID. I am human. I am Kevin.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 08:27 AM
25,

Your email address is failing, so I will reluctantly post these 2 things here and hope they don't backfire on me.

25,

As I didn't realize how bad I was to lift up at times... I met someone worse than me that I am doing everything in my power to keep going. He actually hasn't posted on divorce busting, but had seen me talking to everyone one day and contacted me. Funny thing is, he works 2 buildings over from me in Irving. Talk about what are the odds. He is a really nice guy. But wow, he is sooo needy in terms of feeling insecure about his situation. I actually think his situation is far better than many on divorcebusting.com. I have to reasure this guy at least 2 or 3 times a day. I like him and I am all about marriages surviving, so I stick with him and really try to keep him on track. But what it has done has brought realization to me of just how draining I was to people about my situation. In a way he is actually helping me get out of my funk at times by having to focus on him and his situation. This guy really needs to talk to you. He could really use inspiration from you and your success. Literally he is on a roller coaster ride 2 or 3 times a day. He mind reads so much that in the morning he will tell me things seem in good progression with his wife to at night he tells me he thinks she is moving to divorce. It is ridiculous the emotional roller coaster ride he is on. But I am determined to stick with him and keep him on track because i really think from everything he has told me, he can win his wife back. There is no other man involved. There was earlier, but that ended. Now it is riding on him.

He truly makes me evaulate my situation by having to keep him on track every day. Go figure. His divorce busting name is "At The End". I am going to try and get him to start his own thread because I really want you to give him the insight you have so graciously given me. He is work. I finally told him the other day he is not ready for his wife to come back to him. That shocked him. I had to tell him that if he is mind reading this much while separated, it will only be worse if she comes back until he gets a grip on it. Guess where I got most of what I have told him from. I got it from you in having to look at my own situation and relate it to him.

If you are up for the challenge, I could use the help with this guy as I truly believe his marriage is riding on him which i can't say about most people on the boards.

I hope he doesn't read this as I am really in his corner and he really is a good friend.

Kevin

Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
1 Corinthians 13:7
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 08:31 AM
25,

I have moved on. There is only one person that truly knows what is going on in my life. FaithfulH doesn't and neither does anyone else. The one guy that does, only does because I trust him and he is in a difficult situation himself and ready to throw his wife to the curve.

We know each others situatuions very well and he is very worried about his sitch getting out. But he trusts me and I trust him. It gets hard lately trying to feel like I am living a double life because I want my wife back, but I am no longer sitting around and waiting for her.

But I really am done. If she comes back at this point, she would have to prove to me that she was worth taking back. With the guys that she has slept with and the image she has tried so hard to obtain, it would take a miracle.

25, I prayed and begged God for a full year for this. I fasted and prayed like crazy. I made sure that I went and stopped by a church on the way home from work to make sure I was in the Presence when I prayed. I would go days without eating to prove to God how much I wanted this.

But I just don't care anymore. I do, but not to where I let it rule me anymore. I want it, but I am not waiting for it anymore.

I never thought I would reach this point, but I have. And the funny thing is, I would never have guessed in a million years that my MIL would change so quickly like this when I least expected it. I have always viewed her as the main obstacle standing in the way of me and my W getting back together. That is how much she has tried to wild her power.

But somehow whether it be selfish or not, my MIL's hardness has been shaken miraculously. So I guess anything is possible as I never thought I would see the day that happened.

If W comes back, great. If she doesn't, oh well. I am done praying and fasting for our marriage. It is so draining to do everything you can think of day in and day out and see no results.

Kevin

Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
1 Corinthians 13:7
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 08:36 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
25,

I also know you want to see me apply to myself what you are taking the time to tell me and help me with. I am trying to apply much of it. It is that whole consistancy thing that gets me and I have trouble staying consistant when I start new things.

Kevin


This is what has to happen or you will be here for years. Figuratively if not literally. SO I'm glad you get this.

Then I saw your rebuttal and realized you forgot about "Reflection" or you thought it happened in one day...I don't want to pursue this anymore, but must clarify an outright misstatement you claim i made...

I NEVER SAID, NOR HAVE I EVER BELIEVED THAT HAVING A MAN IN MY LIFE WILL "MAKE ME HAPPY"....OR "FILL/MEET MY NEEDS"...ever.

I'm not like that & never was. Neither are the people on DB that I mentioned to you & I know them well enough to say that. What we said at the time, was that we realized our WAS's leaving us did NOT mean we were necessarily always going to be alone. We realized that THEIR choice to leave us, did not reflect on us nearly as much as on them and it did not mean we were not attractive to the other sex....and THOSE comments are NOT like saying we "need" OP or think they [b]make us happy as you say. [/b] You are not able to distinguish those thoughts or comments and for that, I'm sorry and you are...saddled by an unfortunate misunderstanding. But You wrap our words into terms that apply to you, and then you think we're like you....not so, That's you projecting and though you don't know why it offends some of us, it does.

The very wording about someone else "making you happy" or "filling your needs" reveals this fundamental difference. But enough of the pointless point by points...you need much more time to reflect. Honestly I hope you read these posts weekly, and then monthly, and go BACK to March, and then read some things you wrote in May...in a matter of weeks, note the mood and behavior swings you experienced and presumably, your family saw...."reflect"...for how long? Reflect long enough to learn from, and then to ACT DIFFERENTLY...

Look, I don't think you have the inner 'equipment' to move on without an OW substitute or as some would say, a "Crutch", or whatever you want to call it. Safe to say, You have not done it yet. I just think you'd have done it by now if you knew how to build your own self esteem so that your neediness would not still radiate to the world. I said you should get professional help for this, b/c it's not a healthy way to live and you won't be happy in the long run if you have to have someone else there "making you" happy. Doesn't work that way. But you won't get the kind of help you need & I have to accept what I cannot change.

So I can't judge that, except to ask that you be honest with the women you meet. Perhaps a few R's later, you'll see some patterns in your life more clearly and perhaps you will change. I DON'T KNOW...all I know is you have been here, doing the ssdd, for way too long.

Kevin, you know this to be true and that's what sucks the most isn't it?

Good luck Kevin, I appreciate that you read my posts. But I think you spend more time defending yourself in your rebuttals, than really processing the feedback in the first place. THis isn't about me being right. You don't have to take more polls or bring others into your thread to argue or bolster your viewpoint...Now that I know you read it, you don't have to bother telling my why I'm wrong, (and I might be!!). THis isn't a debate. The feedback is for you to process, which you must take much more time to do, and if it helps, great. If not, so be it. I tried.

Why not try that "Reflection" thing I mentioned, i.e., the inner pondering and searching but for a whole lot longer, and then after you reflect, maybe you will start doing your life differently....?? that's really the point of all this time spent here.

At first we try to help the newbies get through their first horrible days without hurting themselves, or forgetting their kids. We try to give them hope until we can know more so they don't "lose it". Then we try to help them in their actual M's as we learn their situations, or in their post divorce lives if it comes to that...but in all those cases, at some point the people involved have to learn to be happy on their own, or they cannot be b/c the person they delegated their happiness to, left....SO they must change, or their lives will not improve. That ability to affirm ourself and bolster our own self esteem is mandatory and that's self evident to me and the others who detached WITHOUT OP in the picture...so...your arguing or going point by point-- is missing the point.ANd it distracts from solutions.
Again, good luck.
j-
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 08:43 AM
25,

I feel like I owe you and a few others my life through this. I was close to not only calling it quits, but truly ending it in Florida, and you, stuck808 and others really came through for me and helped me not pull the final trigger on myself through my darkest period of my life.

If nothing else, remember that you and stuck and others probably saved a life. With time, maybe a marriage.

You and stuck and others really saved a life if nothing else. So please don't think that anything you say goes un-noticed. I read everything you say and others and think and process it.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 08:46 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
25,

I have moved on. There is only one person that truly knows what is going on in my life. FaithfulH doesn't and neither does anyone else. The one guy that does, only does because I trust him and he is in a difficult situation himself and ready to throw his wife to the curve.

We know each others situatuions very well and he is very worried about his sitch getting out. But he trusts me and I trust him. It gets hard lately trying to feel like I am living a double life because I want my wife back, but I am no longer sitting around and waiting for her.
But that is what you did all year. Praying is great and maybe fasting is too. But you know what you didn't do? You didn't change or grow...

But I really am done. If she comes back at this point, she would have to prove to me that she was worth taking back. With the guys that she has slept with and the image she has tried so hard to obtain, it would take a miracle.

25, I prayed and begged God for a full year for this. I fasted and prayed like crazy. I made sure that I went and stopped by a church on the way home from work to make sure I was in the Presence when I prayed. I would go days without eating to prove to God how much I wanted this.

You really believe that's what God wanted you to learn from all this?

But I just don't care anymore. I do, but not to where I let it rule me anymore. I want it, but I am not waiting for it anymore.

I never thought I would reach this point, but I have. And the funny thing is, I would never have guessed in a million years that my MIL would change so quickly like this when I least expected it. I have always viewed her as the main obstacle standing in the way of me and my W getting back together. That is how much she has tried to wild her power.

But somehow whether it be selfish or not, my MIL's hardness has been shaken miraculously. So I guess anything is possible as I never thought I would see the day that happened.

Just so I'm clear....This "miracle" is that your mil is thinking of not excluding your from a family event?

If W comes back, great. If she doesn't, oh well. I am done praying and fasting for our marriage. It is so draining to do everything you can think of day in and day out and see no results.

Kevin

Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
1 Corinthians 13:7


Love is a verb. It requires action Kevin...sorry you did "everything" you could think of, b/c you sure got tons of advice from tons of people who said to do other things and more of them.
But You stayed stuck and chose the easy route...sure it sucked, but it was easier for you than changing, or taking action. That path was, and is, a pattern in your life. I can't change it. You won't change it B/C you won't see it. So.....here you are....
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 01:43 PM
Hi Kev..don't have alot to say today, but hang in there..do your best. Work on you. What (besides W) makes you happy. Try it this weekend!
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 06:35 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
But I really am done. If she comes back at this point, she would have to prove to me that she was worth taking back. With the guys that she has slept with and the image she has tried so hard to obtain, it would take a miracle.

25, I prayed and begged God for a full year for this. I fasted and prayed like crazy. I made sure that I went and stopped by a church on the way home from work to make sure I was in the Presence when I prayed. I would go days without eating to prove to God how much I wanted this.


I quess we can chalk it up that starving yourself is not a successful Divorce Busting method.
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 06:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen

I quess we can chalk it up that starving yourself is not a successful Divorce Busting method.


I'm reminded of the joke (that someone else posted in another thread):

Quote:

There once was a prediction of an imminent flood in Ohio. A warning was announced on the local radio and TV. The sheriff drove around to make sure everyone had evacuated the area. He came to one man’s house, found the owner still there, and told him to get into his jeep to avoid the coming flood. The man replied, “Don’t worry, the Lord will save me!”

Well, the floods came and the man had to go up to the second floor of his house. A rescue boat went by. “Get onboard, the flood is going to get even worse!” the rescue worker cried out.
But the man said, “Don’t worry, the Lord will save me!”

The flood did get worse! The man had to go up on his roof to avoid the rising water! A helicopter flew over his house. “Grab the rescue line,” they hollered to the man. “Don’t worry,” the man hollered back, “the Lord will save me!” The waters rose further, the man was washed away ... and he drowned!
Thankfully, the man wound up in heaven. But, when the man saw God, he strutted right up to God and said, “Why didn’t you save me? I waited for you!”

God replied, “I sent you a jeep, a boat, and a helicopter! What more did you want me to do?! All you had to do was get onboard!!”
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 07:33 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Just so I'm clear....This "miracle" is that your mil is thinking of not excluding your from a family event?


When in doubt, lower your expectations...
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 07:48 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
. . .

25, I prayed and begged God for a full year for this. I fasted and prayed like crazy. I made sure that I went and stopped by a church on the way home from work to make sure I was in the Presence when I prayed. I would go days without eating to prove to God how much I wanted this.

. . .

If W comes back, great. If she doesn't, oh well. I am done praying and fasting for our marriage.


You really are a pretty black and white guy, Kevin, aren't you. Have you ever considered there just MIGHT some middle ground between those two extremes I've quoted here from you? confused

Puppy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 08:02 PM
I just need to separate myself from my W as best as possible and not look at anyone else like I have been. I just need to focus on my kids and not live a double standard life regardless of how frusturated I become. It isn't worth it and it does nothing in the way of helping me be the complete person I need to be. I think really I am just going to bury myself in my work and kids and try and make the next jump in my career. I am not going to bother pursuing an outside R with someone. It just isn't worth it. And it defeats any and all efforts of "standing". And why do I want to pursue something that I would essentially have to keep quiet if I want any chance of my W coming back. I don't feel right about it. If I can't look my kids straight in the eyes and be honest, then I don't need to be doing it.

Whatever happens will happen. Nothing I can do about it. I really have to focus back on myself again and being the best I can be. I really lost track of that recently and started down a path I should have avoided. I am going to get myself back on the right path.

Middle ground would be good Puppy. I am going to take some time off from the boards for a while.

Kevin
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 08:03 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Have you ever considered there just MIGHT some middle ground between those two extremes I've quoted here from you? confused


So does that make you the jeep, the boat, or the helicopter?
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 08:09 PM
Oh, I'm pretty sure I'm the helicopter. Maybe even the helicopter+1.
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 08:15 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Oh, I'm pretty sure I'm the helicopter. Maybe even the helicopter+1.


I would have said the submarine, myself. Maybe the scuba tank.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 08:20 PM
Quote:
If W comes back, great. If she doesn't, oh well. I am done praying and fasting for our marriage.


Who am I kidding. I will still pray for my M. Frusturation just blocks that sometimes. But I really do need to focus on being a better me.

And 25, I read your posts.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 08:25 PM
You sound confused.
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 08:36 PM
Kevin,

Yes you do need to work on becoming comfortable in your own skin. You certainly don't need a relationship with another woman right now. You are still marriaed and I belive that fidelity should be part of marriage . . . I guess I'm just old fashioned.

None of this is easy. I know that it hurts like hell. But you know what Kevin? You will make it. And one day I think you will actually thank you wife for ending the marriage. When I look at how you describe her, her values, her family disfunction. . . I wonder what you see in her. I know that you think she is attractive, but honestly go to the mall on a Saturday afternoon and you will see hundreds of beautiful women.

What I hope you find someday, when you are healed and emotionally healthy, a woman that doesn't judge you by the size of your paycheck. A woman that will treat you with respect and want to spend her time with you. And you will someday if you really want to. But you have a lot of self-work to do. So do I.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 08:43 PM
Thanks Esox,

Fidelity is part of M and I have struggled with it lately. Not physically, but emotionally. I am dropping that though and just focusing on me.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 08:44 PM
SM, Not confused. Just struggled lately and caved and pursued a path I shouldn't have. I kept it quiet. But I am not pursuing it anymore.

Kevin
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 08:49 PM
Kevin,

You're human. Most humans want an emotional connection with someone. I just think you need to be in a better emotional place before you start adding a woman to the mix. Your plate seems pretty full at the moment.
Posted By: Coach Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 08:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Originally Posted By: K4D
But I really am done. If she comes back at this point, she would have to prove to me that she was worth taking back. With the guys that she has slept with and the image she has tried so hard to obtain, it would take a miracle.

25, I prayed and begged God for a full year for this. I fasted and prayed like crazy. I made sure that I went and stopped by a church on the way home from work to make sure I was in the Presence when I prayed. I would go days without eating to prove to God how much I wanted this.


I quess we can chalk it up that starving yourself is not a successful Divorce Busting method.



Whoa Steve! No so fast on the judgement.

smirk
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 08:54 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
SM, Not confused. Just struggled lately and caved and pursued a path I shouldn't have. I kept it quiet. But I am not pursuing it anymore.


Kept it quiet from the people here who have spent hours and hours trying to give you advice? Including, most likely, advice to not "pursue the path you shouldn't have"? Am I reading that correctly?

So in other words, you're "listening to" and "appreciating" and "respecting" what people here have to say to you; then you go and do whatever you feel like doing anyway. And -- surprise, surprise -- it doesn't work.

I'm at a loss for what to say at this point.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 09:08 PM
Yes, you read it right. I took the advice of leaving my W alone and focusing on my kids. I also started pursuing someone during my off time and yes I kept it quiet because I knew it wasn't right to do. I figured there would be a backlash if I said anything about it. Like I said, only one friend knew about it. But I did just come clean about it. I guess I got tired of being lonely and the attention was nice.

I'm not sure why it makes a difference as far as DBing goes. It is really a moral issue. And I did not sleep with her. So my concious is at least clean on that front. But I did enjoy her. My W seems to be coming around in terms of attitude towards me. She is friendlier these days. Maybe by removing my focus from her it has allowed the situation between us to lighten up.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 09:09 PM
Just a note, this was not the one I met at the bar that night a while ago. I never pursued her after that.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 09:11 PM
Trent,

I have been taking the advice as far as approaching my W goes. I just used some of my off time with someone else for a short while. And it did make me want to quit on my W which was not what I should have done.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 09:17 PM
I am not hardly someone that can be admired at this point now am I. I am human as Esox says. You can try and try, but sometimes you give in to emotions.

Kevin
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 09:23 PM
So you enjoyed some companionship . . . it isn't the end of the world. Its amazing that women actually might want what your wife so casually threw away isn't it?

You aren't ready to be in another relationship. Finish this one first. Does your wife plan of divorcing you? If so why hasn't she filed? How long are you going to sit and wait for this mess of a human to make up her mind? How many men has she slept with now?
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 09:26 PM
How's those AA meetings going? Do you still not see the addictive pattern here???

Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll. Which ones your fix today?

Come on dude. You got to know this stuff already. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile. You should be tripping all over them. Considering how many we have ALL laid out for you to find.

Yes. Please take time to reflect on all this stuff. The only person you should be thinking about have a relationship with is yourself. How's Kevin feeling today. It's time to start a LOVE AFFAIR with yourself wink Are you worth it? Then go to your damn meetings!!!



Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 09:38 PM
Quote:
Its amazing that women actually might want what your wife so casually threw away isn't it?


Stunning isn't it.

PMA, I have backed off on the meetings again. I am just going to C at this point. I am making friends to be part of and I enjoy my time with them. Work is killing me these days only in that we are swamped more often than not and it is requiring more late hours lately.

When I am not going to my C or my priest, I am doing things with friends. Pretty much I am not spending much time at home unless my kids are with me. I am staying busy for the most part.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 09:45 PM
Ok, everyone can throw their hands in the air in disgust now.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 09:55 PM
So is THAT why you took off the "Standing" quote from your signature line.

Quite honestly Kevin, I don't think any of us are surprised. You are addicted to being needed by another woman as much as you try to deny it.

It's no big thing. It's just who you are. Just don't be surprised if you crash and burn again after getting another R.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 10:23 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
SM, Not confused. Just struggled lately and caved and pursued a path I shouldn't have. I kept it quiet. But I am not pursuing it anymore.

Kevin


good for you. and you should pursue it. Its called life, Kevin. Live it.

pursuing your wife is a dead end and if you havent noticed as you have been waiting for her you have been going to hell in a handbasket. why are you so dead set on punishing yourself?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 10:32 PM
Quote:
pursuing your wife is a dead end and if you havent noticed as you have been waiting for her you have been going to hell in a handbasket. why are you so dead set on punishing yourself?


I do feel like I have been through hell. I'm not sure why I am so deadset on punishing myself. I guess because of my concious.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 10:50 PM
W is bailing on the birthday dinner for D11 tonight. She says she has a headache and wants to be ready for six flags tomorrow for the kids. So it will just be me and D11 and D7 tonight eating where D11 wants to eat.

Kevin
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 10:56 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
W is bailing on the birthday dinner for D11 tonight. She says she has a headache and wants to be ready for six flags tomorrow for the kids. So it will just be me and D11 and D7 tonight eating where D11 wants to eat.

Kevin

Great, as its about D11 - this is HER day!! Treat her to something special and spend quality time with the girls tonight smile
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 10:58 PM
Wow...gone for a few hours and another 4 pages on this thread! You are truly lucky Kevin. I have 3 steady people that post on mine, but thats it...Hint Hint everyone! smile

Anyway, someone brought up something that caught my attention...your AA and addictive personality. The best gift you can give yourself is to stand alone. People on my thread call my exh a rollercoaster and quick to decisions...even bad ones. He is into instant gratification. Goes from woman to woman..cannot be alone. He hasn't been alone once since we split up. I wonder what his life would be like if he was alone and he had to make it on his own? He is also an alcoholic, but not in recovery like you.

Take this time and work on you! I think that is much sexier than a guy who needs a woman.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 11:04 PM
I will admit that the people on this site have done a good job of making me feel like or realize that there is something wrong with me. It is quite depressing to think I am not normal.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 11:05 PM
And it is not a critism. It is just a truthful acknowledgement.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 11:09 PM
At the risk of sounding truly pathetic. I admit that I want to be loved. My W just doesn't have that love for me anymore and it hurts. It goes away some with time. But it still hurts and I still want to feel that love and know that I am loved.

I guess that is where I am lacking in self confidence because of that.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 11:12 PM
BTW,

I am going to make it a great night for D11 and make it all about her. Nobody has to worry about that. I got my parent priorities in order.

Kevin
Posted By: GoBison Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 11:16 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I will admit that the people on this site have done a good job of making me feel like or realize that there is something wrong with me. It is quite depressing to think I am not normal.

Kevin


What's normal? Is it depressing to be an individual and have different thoughts and actions? Who would you consider normal? McQueen? (Sorry SM I do find your posts funny and somewhat off the wall at times)

When's the pity party over?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 11:20 PM
No pity party. I was just making an acknowledgement.

Kevin
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 11:20 PM
Kevin,

Most of us here have our issues. So what. People post to you for a lot of reasons. I think most just see a hurting man and want to extend a hand and help him up. No one I've read here seems to get a kick out of slapping you. Really people have better things to do with their time.

You can have a much better life. I don't know if you can save your marriage, but damn Kevin . . . you have two lovely kids . . . you are employed . . . you have so much and you just can't see it. Sometimes I think of Gollum and his precious when I read what you say about your wife. She is poison to you and yet you still crave her more than anything. She isn't worth it.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 11:36 PM
I get to leave work in 20 minutes and go get my kids and take them out. Should be fun. Today has been a long day. I am looking forward to the weekend with my girls.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 11:37 PM
Thanks Esox,

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 11:38 PM
SM,

Sometimes I don't know if you are joking or you are serious with your suggestions. They really are funny and yet applicable.

Also, thanks SO2 and Stuck and TrentC. I am trying to remember to acknowledge everyone who posts and let them know I did read what they said.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/04/09 11:42 PM
It seems odd to me that W can't just take a motrin for her headache and do D11's birthday dinner with us tonight. I am not sure that I buy the headache thing. But who knows.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/05/09 12:02 AM
I just spoke to W on the phone about D11's plans. As we were getting off she says " love you, oops, sorry ". I said there is nothing wrong with that and then I said bye. I know it was just a slip of the tongue for her.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/05/09 12:03 AM
I haven't heard her say that in so long it totally caught me off guard. But again, I know it was just a slip up. She didn't mean to say it. I wonder if she is saying it to someone else now though and that is how it slipped out. Who knows. Doesn't matter does it.

Kevin
Posted By: Esox Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/05/09 12:06 AM
She said it out of habit. Don't give it another thought. Have a great time with your kids!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/05/09 08:37 AM
I agree Esox. Tonight we talked more about D11's birthday. By the way, the evening went great with the girls tonight. D11 got a great dinner, desert, and got to pick out presents for herself. She even picked out a board game and wanted me to play it with her, so I did.

Well, anyways, we are changing the plans for tomorrow for D11's party. We have decided with the cold weather and with D11 having asthmas that flares up in cold weather that we will not do six flags. Instead we will do something inside at a place here.

Ok, so after we agree, W suggests that D11 be able to have a friend or 2 over to spend the night with her tomorrow. D11 is with me. I tell W that yes I have been thinking about that and was going to offer it to D11.

W then tells me that she would be ok with D11 having some friends stay the night tomorrow night with her. Excuse me??? So she says again after another minute that she has no problem with it. confused
I said ok.

I am thinking here, when did I need my W's permission or approval to allow my daughter to have a friend or 2 stay the night with her AT MY PLACE? Did I miss something here? W proceeds to again tell me she is fine with it if D11 wants to have a friend or 2 stay the night. I feel totally lost here. I did not ask her for her opinion on whether or not D11 can have a friend or 2 stay the night at my place with her tomorrow night. As far as I know, I pay the rent at my place due to W's ridiculous life decisions and as far as I know, she has ABSOLUTELY no say in whether or not my D11 can have a friend stay for the night.

Please tell me if I missed something here. Surely I can't be this stupid. I am totally lost here on this one. D11 has had a friend stay the night before and I never asked my W about her thoughts on the issue or for her permission or anything. Why did she feel the need to repeat her approval of that should I decide to allow D11 the opportunity to do that?

I must be losing my mind. I just cannot make heads or tails out of this one.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/05/09 01:31 PM
Ok,

So it is 6:51 am on Saturday morning. I slept for 3 hours tonight. During the week I am averaging about 4.5 hours per night of sleep. I generally go to sleep about 3am and wake up about 7:30am to get to work by 8:30. It isn't so bad once you get used to it. Just imagine how successful I could be if I spent all that time studying.

The thing is that at times when I get up to walk or move, sometimes I feel a quick dizzyness come on, but then I quickly shake it off. It feels like something neurological going on when it happens.

Ok, so today is the big day for D11. W wants us to come over about 10am to help decorate her real Christmas tree in OUR house. Why she couldn't get this done during the week on her time with the kids is beyond me. I am already planning on me and the kids setting up our Christmas tree and decorating it tomorrow. I did not invite W to participate.

Last night, D11 got to try Sushi for the first time for her birthday. She liked it somewhat. D7 wasn't a huge fan of it. But hey, they tried something new and D11 wanted to try it for her birthday dinner with me. We sat at the place where they actually make the sushi in front of you. The kids thought that was pretty neat. The guy who made ours was pretty cool. After we were done eating, he went back and made a special desert for the girls and brought it out to them. He was very nice. The girls were so excited about what he made them that they forgot to say thank you so I had to remind each of them to do so since he did it just for them. I pretty much eat sushi at that one place alone so they have kind of gotten to know me there. But last night was the first time they met my daughters. I am meeting FaithfulH there for dinner on Tuesday. He is a sushi fan as well and I think he will like the place.

I guess I am going to go ahead and join the Rush Limbaugh 24/7 membership thing so I can download his daily podcasts. I have listened to him for 15 years and read both of his books. Funny thing is that he has had 3 marriages and not been able to make them work, but the guy is dead on when it comes to politics. Not much room for arguement with him when it comes to that. My W never really listened to him because she thought he came across as arrogant. I disagreed and said that he was confident and probably the most knowledgeable guy out there when it comes to politics if you can just get past his ego. There is a reason his radio show has survived and strived for 15 years and everyone elses has failed during that time. If he was wrong that much, his show wouldn't have any credibility and would have failed years ago like everyone elses.

I am also a Randy Galloway fan when it comes to Dallas Cowboys talk on the radio. He is a bit kooky, but very entertaining and I think he knows this team very well and has for years. He can't stand Jerry Jones, but loves the Boys.

Ok, enough of rambling on for me. I guess I hit those streaks when I am alone and not slept much.

The sun is now out and shining. It usually gets dark here about 6pm these days.

A friend of mine gave me a table and chairs to set up outside so D7 could eat her lunch out there with her friends that she is making now. She had wanted to do that and my friend was going to get rid of her stuff as she got new stuff so I took it for D7. I got the biggest hug from D7 when she saw it. It just completely warmed my heart when she hugged me and thanked me for it. The simple things in life that can make a kids world extra special.

I have been playing with my new droid phone and not hardly been on my computer because of it. That phone is just amazing. There really isn't much I can't do on it.

I need to go back to the excercise room again today and get back on track with that. I had been doing it each day, but I got off track with the holidays and my dad visiting. I think I put on a few extra pounds because of it. But I know how to take them right back off.

My coworker breeds maltese dogs and both my daughters really want one, so he told me is going to be breeding them again and he also potty trains them before he releases them, so he is going to give me the first pick at the next litter. My girls are so excited about it.

I think I am going to go make coffee now and start my day. Hopefully I won't have any dizzy spells today. It is strange, they hit at the oddest times during the day for me.

Christmas is just around the corner and then new years. I already have new years plans with my girls since W was asking if I wanted them for New Years. Last New Years really ended up sucking as W and D7 disappeared for 3 days and nights. It was just me and D11 and D11 cried and was so upset that W wouldn't even call her because she was to busy at her best friends house for those 3 days. I hope W is a little more courteous towards her own daughter this year. But I am taking them with me to a friends house whom they know where there will also be other kids and adults they know. It should be a fun time for all of us.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/05/09 01:48 PM
Kevin! That was a great post! First one that I have seen that you haven't talked only about your sich! Now, I am so not bagging on you for nothing...I tend to talk about my sich 24/7 and thats it. But good for you! Nice to read about things in your life besides W.

I saw that phone yesterday and thought of you. I think if I had that kind of phone I would be on it constantly.

Have fun today. No expectations. Show your girls a happy dad.

If you get a chance go check out my thread. My head is a mess. I am weakening bad! All of my common sense is slowly slipping away all because of a few words and some charm.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/05/09 03:30 PM
SO2,

I don't have any expectations today. I am just going to make it the best day possible for D11 and D7. I canceled going over to W's house to decorate her tree as we are just not going to be ready in time.

I just posted to your thread. We all weaken at times. I am the prime example of that. I know how you feel.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/05/09 03:36 PM
Thats great Kevin. Glad you are doing things for you and your D's. Thanks for posting on my thread. I am a wreck and you would think I would be much farther out than I am.
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/05/09 03:56 PM
yo kevin

ready to B 2X4'd!

i didn't go back several pages on your thread to see how much of a recent trend this is and this is your thread to do ith what you choose BUT go & GAL. Quit wasting time on here telling us what you are going to tell us then telling us the color of the sky and which shoe you tie first and things of that sort. Go live life. If I didn't know any better I would almost think that this place of your's is a real security blanket of your's or something. Go stir up some life with RL people not us dimwits here on DB.

Virtual Life = NG

Real Life = where it's at!

nuff on that or do I have to go load up at the lumber yard!!!!




your loving brother in Jesus
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/05/09 03:59 PM
more sleep & more doing stuff in RL.

More MORE more more!

I am outa here to do just that.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/05/09 04:42 PM
Hi Tomato,

This site is an outlet for me. I figure it much better to use this as my outlet than to use my W as my outlet. But ya, I need more sleep and to get out more.

I spoke to W briefly this morning about the day today and plans for D11.

After that W proceeded to tell me about her late night with her best friend whose H is not allowed in the house until he gets his rage under control in which he is attending C for. So W tells me that she would offer him a room at HER house but thinks it might be inappropriate. Really? Seriously? I didn't realize that anything was considered inappropriate with her.

Ok, knocked me over with that one. Her logic just completely baffles me.

Off to a great day now for D11 and D7.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/06/09 07:06 PM
Well,

Yesterday went very smooth. We took D11 and 2 of her friends and D7 to Main Event. We started out bowling for 2 hours and eating food. Me and W just really had a good time together talking, competing, spending time with the girls, we ordered a whole bunch of food. We helped the girls with the bowling and everyone really had a great time. W checked out my phone and wants one. She beat me in one game and I beat her in the other. We were smart @ss's while competing but supported each other on good and bad bowls as well.

After bowling we took the kids to the video games section and spent some more time together while keeping track of the kids.

Then after we left we went by W's house and got some additional stuff for the girls and D11 had one of the girls stay over night.
W had gotten 2 things of guda cheese and offered one to me as she was not going to eat it. So I took that home with me.

W also went to open her liquor cabinet to get me a can of soda. Holy Crap, she has built that up completely. Very expensive liquors and fully stocked with just about every kind there is. I just looked at her like wooa. She has it in the cabinet, the fridge, freezer, out on the shelf in the kitchen. I'm like dang girlfriend. I guess she is ready for the holiday blues.

While looking at my phone yesterday she wanted to see my facebook page to see what it looked like on the phone. There is a facebook app on the droid phone, but I had not set it up yet so she wasn't able to view it.

Things seemed normal yesterday. It was like old times having a great time together with absolutely no tension. It was joking around and talking about how proud of our girls we are and just making a great and fun family birthday party for D11 and keeping D7 involved as well and making sure she was having a good time to since it wasn't her party and she didn't have any friends.

Today I am supposed to go over to the house and get our Christmas tree and sort out decorations with W to bring back over. She said she didn't want me to come by without her being there. Not sure why as I would not take anything we had not discussed.

She still has pictures up everywhere of me and her together and our family together as well. She did say that her and the girls and the rest of her family are having formal Christmas pictures made this week. That hurt a bit, but I showed no reaction to it. She told me about her 4 job prospects and one in particular that she was excited about the possibility of. I told her that is great and acted excited for her as well.

She asked if I had signed a new lease yet or had made a decision on whether to move. I said I have not decided anything yet, but that I found some really nice apartments in Plano I was thinking about. She said she is looking to get out of her moms house she is renting and looking to move to plano this summer as well.

Ok, so all in all, there were positives here, but the usual negative to. The positives, we are starting to be able to do things again together as a family and really have a good time doing it. Negatives, it just looks like she really has moved on and is simply able to enjoy me and the girls because I am no longer putting pressure on her. She feels free to be herself which does not include me in any romantic light. It feels like it is just turning into a friendship thing now. She even texted me back and forth this morning about our evenings last night individually and firming up todays plans and a bethleham recreation here in the area that looks cool that we had talked about yesterday. We used to do it with the girls in Florida each year. But she didn't say anything about the 4 of us doing it this year. So it may have been just a suggestion for me to take the girls. She keeps throwing Christmas event ideas out there for me and the girls but never suggests the 4 of us.

So I don't know. These are dramatic improvements from what they have been the past year. Alot of it has to be from me no longer pursuing her or putting pressure on her. At the same time, I feel like this is becoming a situation where she thinks I am coming to terms with her not wanting to come back and it is making it easier for her to be around me again.

From listening to her, her opinion of most people in this world is so negative. She isn't nice about a lot of people that make mistakes which she is feeling free to tell me more and more her thoughts on people who don't please her exactly the way she wants. It is quite harsh. She is very critical of them and has no use for them breathing the air that is provided on her planet.

So where does it all stand? Well, she hasn't refiled yet. Things are improving between us as coparents and even somewhat to a friendship level. Ah the friendship thing... That is the nightmare that nobody wants who wants their S back. I am not interested in being a bud to her like others. But I figure we have to start somewhere for me to attempt to build a bridge back between us. So I will accept it for now.

She also talked about plans for Christmas day. We will all meet at her mothers around 11am for brunch and presents. Then W said I should hang around for the afternoon into the evening and then she will take the girls with her for the evening that day.

New years she told me she has plans and that I can either take the girls or she will just get a baby sitter for them. She has no intention of taking the new year in with her girls. That bugged me. I have been invited to my friends house for new years eve. She has a daughter that is the same age as D7, so I would just take my girls with me there and we would all have a good time together.

New years day falls on a Friday which would give me a 3 day weekend. I wonder if it wouldn't be worth it to just head out of town for that weekend. I could head back to Jacksonville for a few days and spend it with my friends. I could head out on a flight at noon new years eve and come back Sunday night. Or I could just fly out to New York City and be at Time Square for new years eve. I have never been to New York City before. I haven't left Dallas since this whole thing began. Maybe that wouldn't be a bad idea.

At the same time I feel like my girls should be able to spend New Years with one of us, so maybe I will just go ahead and be the one that brings in the new year with them.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/07/09 04:31 AM
I bailed on W tonight. I didn't feel like going over there. I told her I would just pick up the tree and stuff on the way home from work tomorrow. I told her I was tired and didn't feel like doing it tonight. She said she completely understood.

I think she is starting to see me not make her my #1 priority anymore. I am not just jumping at stuff with her anymore. It is probably helping things out if I had to make a guess.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/07/09 02:09 PM
Good Kevin..as long as it was good with your girls there is nothing wrong with being independent.

I hate the buddies thing too. When my exh is in the middle of the crap that he does I wanted nothing to do with him. I barely spoke. I couldn't. I was wanting to get my own life back and being his buddy was so not helping. When he came to see baby I said hi and went and did my own thing. There was no idle chit chat in person or text. Now, we talk all the time...may be good for him, but I am scared out of my mind.

BTW, your Boys lost yesterday. They are our team too and it was sad.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/07/09 08:13 PM
The Boys are just unpredictable this year. They lose when they should win and they win when they should lose. I don't understand it. I wish they had a real coach. But "GM" Jerry Jones won't allow a real coach to take over and make them successful again.

Anyways, I wonder now if I spent to much time talking to Mel on Saturday. It think I might have. If I did, oh well. I think I may have just been so excited to have a good day with her and it was that I may have focused to much on her.

Tonight I will pick up our tree on the way home. D11 is home sick so I will need to take care of her. Work just has me swamped right now to which is good and bad. It is good to be busy, but sometimes I could use a break from the unreal deadlines.

I'm grateful to have a job though that is supporting me and my kids.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/07/09 09:22 PM
I get the excited feelings too. I had alot of those this weekend. Go check out my thread. Could use some insight of the past few days.

Have fun with the girls and decorating your tree tonight.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 07:00 AM
SO2,

I will come over to your thread and take a look.

Tonight was good. I got to have dinner with FaithfulH and Fightin4mywife and a friend of mine. We have a wonderful evening as I always do with FaithfulH. What a blessing it truly is to have him as a friend.

So question... My W keeps asking me if I have renewed my lease or found another place to live. I tell her I haven't done either yet. She has asked this a couple of times. Why does it matter to her?

Kevin
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 12:21 PM
Because she wants to see that you're moving on, and that you're going to be okay.

Puppy
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 02:40 PM
Thanks for your input on my thread Kev. Nice to know I am not the only one who analyzes every single thing smile

Who knows why she asked that. I guess we can't care. I read way more into conversations than what needs to be.

Sounds like a fun dinner! I met up with a gf that I met here too. Such a good time.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 03:21 PM
Quote:
Because she wants to see that you're moving on, and that you're going to be okay.

Puppy


Isn't that evident by the fact I am in my own place and have been?

Kevin
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 03:23 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
Because she wants to see that you're moving on, and that you're going to be okay.

Puppy


Isn't that evident by the fact I am in my own place and have been?

Kevin


to a very small degree ...but not really though

expand your thinking K4D .. 'moving on & being ok' has so very little to do with you being in your own place and limitting contact with her. It has plenty to do with identifying troubling behaviors in yourself and sheer unhealthiness and growth blockers and making concrete new choices with results for YOURSELF.

T
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 03:24 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
Because she wants to see that you're moving on, and that you're going to be okay.

Puppy


Isn't that evident by the fact I am in my own place and have been?

Kevin


Yes, but isn't your lease up for renewal? Much of your stance towards her still has been conveying "neediness" (no need to rehash all that here; just sayin'). I'm sure she cares for you, and wants to know if you're starting to move on emotionally, in my opinion.

It's part of the whole "normalization" thing.

Puppy
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 03:28 PM
Kev..you and I need to work on our "neediness". LOL J/K
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 03:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Startingover2
Kev..you and I need to work on our "neediness". LOL J/K


or are U??
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 03:35 PM
question for you K4D, why is it that you list in your profile "WS: 35 Alcoholic and Rx abuser"

Her faults get highlighted and broadcast huh? Why???

just noticed that, when did you make that add-on? Why? Seems kind of inappropriate or some other bad adjrctive to me!
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 03:38 PM
also ..more to the point.. it is rather unbalanced since you are just listed as "Me".

Things that make me go hmmm
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 03:41 PM
my total bad ..., don't I feel like a schmuckk. those comments could better be aimed at SO2, since it is in her profile.

Rough day, litterally in the skies. My mind is still a blurr. My apologies.

Won't be so quick to type without engage my turbulence shaken brain.
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 03:48 PM
however, I will keep plenty of lumber nearby K4D. I hope to not have to use it butttt ......please don't tempt me. I and other's are here to keep you from slipping up or something.

T
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 03:50 PM
Tomato: yes that is in my profile. Why? Because its a huge part of the dynamics of our relationship. Sorry if it offended you.
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 03:56 PM
in your case, i don't have as much of a problem with it. I certainly wouldn't say "offended".

IDK, I just tend to not air as much stuff out there for public consumption or whatever. That's just me though. We all have our own thread 'abodes' and we can do whatever we want with them. That is the cool part. Just a micro of life really.

T
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 04:11 PM
I think it's germain to the issues in the marriage. Aren't our autosignatures also part of our "abodes"?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 04:15 PM
Puppy, Tomato, SO2,

I think I have worked on my neediness quite a bit. I don't show any neediness towards W anymore. I live separately from her. I don't call her for anything unless it is finance related or kid related.

I come to terms more each day with my sitch. I don't like it and I want it to turn around and I do think she is starting to soften some, probably because I have laid off of her and have been doing my own thing. I think FaithfulH would agree from talking with him last night.

He said to think about the conversation that had to occur between my W and her mom for me to have been invited for Christmas. That actually was big. I am still playing it cool though and doing my own thing with my life and my girls.

Tomato, sorry I missed your call last night. I got my new phone and hadn't finished updating my contacts so I didn't recognize the number when you called. Last night after dinner at home I finished updating my contacts and realized that was you that called.

I think I am much further along in DBing than I have ever been which is significant in my mind. I still have those moments driving home alone at night after work without my kids that I will cry at times and wish things were different. But I am pulling through much better these days. I am still hopeful about a future reconciliation especially with hearts starting to soften a bit for the first time since this has begun. But I am also realistic that it is still a very long road to recovery. But I think I am making the right steps in the right direction for a change and sticking with it.

I don't know if 25 will agree. She might not. And she might be right if she does not. But I feel like I am so much further along anymore than I used to be.

My kids told me the other night they still want us together and D11 told me she was happy that I have been invited to spend Christmas with the family. My MIL actually told D11 as well that I am invited. D11 also had talked to W's dad on the phone and he actually told D11 to tell me hi. He has also been against me for most of this past year. So I must be doing something right for them all to start taking a change towards me.

Kevin
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 04:34 PM
at times just the general tone as evidenced by certain things you "say" is that of real uncertainty.

Ask the Lord to help you build your confidence and you shall have it!

Praying for ya big guy. (Cowgirls fan or not)
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 04:35 PM
Yo Mr. Confident,

What are you doing on here anywayze. Thought your job had you supremely busy?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 04:38 PM
Quote:
What are you doing on here anywayze. Thought your job had you supremely busy?


It has been. We finished everything up last night. I have another meeting to go into in 20 minutes, but I finally had a bit of down time this morning. So I got on and posted.

Thanks for the prayers. Always need them.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 04:48 PM
How do you like your Droid? My D18 wants one for Xmas. Either that or her windows tinted on her car. That one is tough to wrap under the tree smile
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 05:00 PM
The droid is so totally awesome. There is nothing I can't do with it. I spend more time on it than my computer. I highly recommend it. She will love it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 06:36 PM
These meetings are a beating. Ugg. lol.

Kevin
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 08:43 PM
Kevin,

I do think you are further along than you used to be.

I also think that your wife still very definitely feels your neediness.

Just my opinion, based only upon reading your posts. I could be wrong.

Puppy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 08:53 PM
Quote:
I also think that your wife still very definitely feels your neediness.

Just my opinion, based only upon reading your posts. I could be wrong.

Puppy


Puppy,

There is a good chance of that. I thought I might have spent to much time talking to W at D11's birthday party. But I recognize that now and won't make the same mistake at Christmas or at D7's birthday. I will be more focused on the kids and try to prevent anything coming across as neediness. I think I was just happy that things were going so well that day and there was no tension in the air. But I might have over done it. So at least I am aware of that now.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 09:21 PM
That's not where your neediness comes across. It's when you ask why she even asks you about the lease and questioning her motives for every action (good or bad) that she does. You still hinge on that and that's where the neediness comes across.

So have you made up your mind if you plan to pursue OW while you're waiting for your W?
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 09:24 PM
Originally Posted By: stuck808


So have you made up your mind if you plan to pursue OW while you're waiting for your W?


I think it would be good for him.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 09:27 PM
Quote:
That's not where your neediness comes across. It's when you ask why she even asks you about the lease and questioning her motives for every action (good or bad) that she does. You still hinge on that and that's where the neediness comes across.

So have you made up your mind if you plan to pursue OW while you're waiting for your W?


Stuck,

I wasn't hinging on her asking. I was curious as to why she keeps asking.

I have dropped the OW and I don't plan to further pursue her or someone else.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 09:31 PM
Quote:
I think it would be good for him.


SG,

It was a nice ego boost and built my confidence some. But I really didn't feel right about it.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 09:40 PM
"I wasn't hinging on her asking. I was curious as to why she keeps asking."

The fact that you keep asking "why" or are even curious about "why" then you are hinging.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 09:51 PM
Quote:
The fact that you keep asking "why" or are even curious about "why" then you are hinging.


Ok. I didn't realize it was hinging. I figured it was just curiousity. But I can accept that. Maybe it was hinging.

Kevin
Posted By: breakaway Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 10:12 PM
Kevin, I would imagine she just wants to make sure you have your sh!t together about a place to live since her children live with you half the time.
Posted By: breakaway Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 10:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Tomato
in your case, i don't have as much of a problem with it. I certainly wouldn't say "offended".

IDK, I just tend to not air as much stuff out there for public consumption or whatever. That's just me though. We all have our own thread 'abodes' and we can do whatever we want with them. That is the cool part. Just a micro of life really.

T


Alcoholism is pretty fundamental to anyone's situation that has alcoholism in it. I can't imagine why you would judge her about including that information as it informs the reader about a MAJOR problem in the relationship.

How's that any different from people putting down their WAS's affairs in their signatures. Isn't that broadcasting their "faults?" No, it's explaining the situation.

Alcoholic families are bred on "not telling." So telling is one of the best things SO2 can do.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 10:23 PM
Quote:
How's that any different from people putting down their WAS's affairs in their signatures. Isn't that broadcasting their "sins?" No, it's explaining the situation.


I took my W's affairs out of my signature because I decided I shouldn't be broadcasting it in every post. If it comes up, that is one thing. But I am not just going to keep putting it out there on every single post I submit. But that was my own personal choice.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 10:25 PM
Quote:
Kevin, I would imagine she just wants to make sure you have your sh!t together about a place to live since her children live with you half the time.


I have a place to live that I can renew this month. I just haven't decided if I want to stay in the current apartment or move to one that I found that I like much better.

Kevin
Posted By: breakaway Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 10:32 PM

Okay, well my point was that was probably why she keeps asking you, since you were wondering about it.
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/09/09 11:04 PM
Go to the store and 2 pages down! Wow!

Kevin...we are needy. We are overanalyzing. I hope you find it nice to have someone in your same boat! LOL Its not easy to not think about every word, especially when you would like to see some positive in your situation.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 02:12 AM
Tonight I had to work late. This had been prescheduled with my W so she knew she would have to girls until I got off. Normally when this happens, she keeps them at her place until I get off work and swing by and get them.

Not tonight.

W: What's it looking like? I am taking the girls to your place.
K4D: I have no idea.
K4D: Did they eat?
D12: Mom is driving. We are picking up food on the way to the apartment.
K4D: I was going to stop by and get the tree
W: Not tonight. Friends coming over. You can't expect me to stop making plans when I get a "no idea" on what time you will pick up the kids.
K4D: Understood
W: Plan on getting the tree tomorrow. If I'd known I'd have brought it.
K4D: Will do. Thanks.

When there were female friends over in the past, W had no problem with keeping the girls there until I got there. The Christmas tree is in the garage, so I wouldn't even have to bother anyone in the house.

You be the judge.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 03:12 AM
"You be the judge."

I think you are being the judge. You really don't know the circumstances. You're still having issues detaching.

Am I to assume you're still standing for your M?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 05:14 AM
Quote:
I think you are being the judge. You really don't know the circumstances. You're still having issues detaching.


I have judged the situation. I have no reason to doubt my judgement either based off past experience. Stuck, it always hurts to think of someone else being with my W especially in a physical way. It is hard to completely 100% detach from that so that it never affects me again.

Quote:
Am I to assume you're still standing for your M?


Yes. I am. Did I leave that stance for a while? Yes. But I have returned to it. And I was never physical with my brief stray. It was purely emotion for a temporary period of time.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 09:29 AM
[quote=K4D]Tonight I had to work late. This had been prescheduled with my W so she knew she would have to girls until I got off. Normally when this happens, she keeps them at her place until I get off work and swing by and get them.

Not tonight.

W: What's it looking like? I am taking the girls to your place.
K4D: I have no idea.
K4D: Did they eat?
D12: Mom is driving. We are picking up food on the way to the apartment.
K4D: I was going to stop by and get the tree
W: Not tonight. Friends coming over. You can't expect me to stop making plans when I get a "no idea" on what time you will pick up the kids.
K4D: Understood
W: Plan on getting the tree tomorrow. If I'd known I'd have brought it.
K4D: Will do. Thanks.

When there were female friends over in the past, W had no problem with keeping the girls there until I got there. The Christmas tree is in the garage, so I wouldn't even have to bother anyone in the house.

So what??!

You be the judge.

No thanks,
You already are the judge, and you already forgot the lesson we thought you learned about your harsh assessments of dating OP earlier and here a month later (or less) you still do the same fri00000 thing again! You make the same mistakes over and over again.

DETACH AND STOP GIVING A S@#$ about why she tells you something she has every right to tell you. She had the girls later than usual AND you gave her NO timeline for your arrival...(wth? SO you could get them at 4 am and she better be fine with that??)) you have nothing to complain about - let alone "judge"...

[color:#CC0000]Sigh--Come on K4...plan a happy holiday for your girls that does NOT depend on your w or how she and her family treat you...

Please dear God do that for your d's sake if not yours, and move on... You definitely confuse "Standing" with standing still....or praying and fasting...and NOT getting tools for life and love.
You have some reading and reflecting to do. It's all here already...has been for awhile.
j-
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 02:06 PM
Somehow, some way you (and I :)) are going to have to learn to not read too much into simple statements. I feel you on this. I hate the thought of exh being physical with anyone too and it drives me crazy. But for us to be attractive we need to act like we don't give a crap and need to believe it!

I am in your corner Kevin! You can do this!
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 02:31 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
You be the judge.

Kevin


My Best Judge Judy impression:

So what! You're still talking about the fish that got away. You know why it got away? Because you were drinking too much beer in the boat and forgot to watch the line. Now you can keep talking about how big it was and give it names like 'Big Martha' or you can get back in the boat and learn to how bait. Byrd here is a master baiter and you dont hear him complaining.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 02:33 PM
25 and SO2,

I didn't know what time I would be able to get off. It wasn't up to me. I was waiting on my bosses to say that it was ok for me to leave as we were pusing another deadline for changes last night and I could not leave until they had approved of everything. So my answer was honest.

Certainly W can tell me whatever she wants. I would rather her be up front. It has really become a game of I will pretend I don't know she is with someone and she will pretend she isn't. It is so ridiculous.

And I don't act like I give a crap in front of her. Again, I pretend I don't know. She pretends I don't know. Together we both pretend we don't know what we know.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 03:17 PM
You asked me in another thread to comment on all the updates you have made. While ignoring that request would be rude on my part I am not sure there is much else to say that has not been said ad nauseum to you since I joined this site.

You must detach. And detaching is not just about acting like you don't give a flying fig when you talk/see/spend time with your W, it's about adopting that mindset 110% of the time. You have been separated for quite some time and really should be much further along than you are. BUT you are your own worse enemy when it comes to making progress.

No more justifications, excuses or explanations. Stop analyzing every little thing and redirect your energy towards something better. Your W does not want to be married to you at this time and perhaps never again. She is involved with other men.

I agree with the other posters that you come across as very needy. The constant wondering, the way you crumble around your W, the way you cling to one good exchange and quite simple the way you present yourself is the very definition of neediness.

The post you made about the day you spent together as a family for your daughter's b-day was all about you and your W with only a brief mention of your children. You said it felt like "old times" and I am stunned you can regress in that way. Did "old times" include you and your W going to separate homes, exchanging the children weekly and your W sleeping w/other men?

I was also stunned you simply handed your phone over to your W for her to examine. Had that been me I would have said in a flirty and commanding way "Oh,I don't let just *anyone* see my phone, that's private" winked at her and walked away like I was the sexiest person on the planet. If she asked again I would have come back with a response such as "sure, babe, you can scroll through my phone while I scroll through yours" and again, walked away in a fashion nobody would soon forget!

If she wants to check out the droid tell her to go to the phone store and have a look. What an opportunity you missed out on! You could have said "sure babe, we can check out the Droid, I will pick you up tomorrow at 8 and take you to the phone store to check it out!" Chances are she would have shot you down but once again it may have shown her that you don't just do what she asks when she asks.

You gave her way too much info about the apartment and should have said "when I decide I will let you know!".

Lastly, why did you listen to her ramble on and on about her potential new jobs? As per the IM exchange you posted just a bit ago she clearly does not care about your job as she essentially scolded and bossed you around for having to work late on a project that had no solid timeline for completion. Instead of standing up to her and saying "W, I understand me being unable to provide you with an exact time is difficult at this moment I do not have a firm time as to when I will be done with my project deadline. In the future please respect my time when I am working and I will touch base with you within the hour to update my availability"

Instead you answered with "understood" as if she was a commander and you a mere peon. Needy, not attractive and it makes you sound like a wimp. Sorry to be blunt but your remind me of my H and he is so wimpy it's almost pitiful.

Also, you said she wish she would just be upfront about what she is doing (OM) yet I doubt you were upfront with her about meeting a hooker, the girl at the bar and this other lady you thought was the bees knees. You are SEPARATED therefore stop wishing and live your life. You expect her to do things you don't do.

I don't care if you stand, starve yourself, chant, use voodoo dolls or whatever the theme of the week is - DETACH and stop letting this woman steam roll you and boss you around like she does. Stop reading into EVERYTHING and pretend she doesn't exist unless it's about parenting.

What do you think about that?
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D Rising #4 - 12/10/09 03:43 PM
CG, you are the "bees knees", well said grin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D Rising #4 - 12/10/09 03:49 PM
CG...great post! I think you were talking to me too! smile
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 06:42 PM
"It was purely emotion for a temporary period of time."

Actually I think this admission is a great way to show how you have actually changed.

The fact that you recognize that it was emotional and didn't let it get physical is a good step in the right direction. It showed that maybe you're starting to understand how you don't need someone to make you happy.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 08:25 PM
Quote:
You asked me in another thread to comment on all the updates you have made. While ignoring that request would be rude on my part I am not sure there is much else to say that has not been said ad nauseum to you since I joined this site.


I appreciate that.

Quote:
You must detach. And detaching is not just about acting like you don't give a flying fig when you talk/see/spend time with your W, it's about adopting that mindset 110% of the time. You have been separated for quite some time and really should be much further along than you are. BUT you are your own worse enemy when it comes to making progress.


Ya, at times I feel like I am moving in the right direction, and then something last night triggers something in me again.

Quote:
No more justifications, excuses or explanations. Stop analyzing every little thing and redirect your energy towards something better. Your W does not want to be married to you at this time and perhaps never again. She is involved with other men.


I agree with you. I shouldn’t have analyzed it at all. It hurt somewhat, but that is because I let it hurt me by thinking about it.

Quote:
I agree with the other posters that you come across as very needy. The constant wondering, the way you crumble around your W, the way you cling to one good exchange and quite simple the way you present yourself is the very definition of neediness.


The more I thought about the birthday party, I started thinking I did also. What I presumed to be excitement probably came across as neediness.

Quote:
The post you made about the day you spent together as a family for your daughter's b-day was all about you and your W with only a brief mention of your children. You said it felt like "old times" and I am stunned you can regress in that way. Did "old times" include you and your W going to separate homes, exchanging the children weekly and your W sleeping w/other men?


No, it didn’t. Good point.

Quote:
I was also stunned you simply handed your phone over to your W for her to examine. Had that been me I would have said in a flirty and commanding way "Oh,I don't let just *anyone* see my phone, that's private" winked at her and walked away like I was the sexiest person on the planet. If she asked again I would have come back with a response such as "sure, babe, you can scroll through my phone while I scroll through yours" and again, walked away in a fashion nobody would soon forget!

If she wants to check out the droid tell her to go to the phone store and have a look. What an opportunity you missed out on! You could have said "sure babe, we can check out the Droid, I will pick you up tomorrow at 8 and take you to the phone store to check it out!" Chances are she would have shot you down but once again it may have shown her that you don't just do what she asks when she asks.


I was so excited about the droid and wanted to show her. But how you say I should have done it would have been far better. I wish I would have thought of that instead of just jumping at my excitement.

Quote:
You gave her way too much info about the apartment and should have said "when I decide I will let you know!".


I have a tendacy to talk to much around her. I just get so excited and hopeful when things aren’t tensious. I need to keep my feelings under control and guarded.

Quote:
Lastly, why did you listen to her ramble on and on about her potential new jobs?


I don’t know. I hate hearing about her prospects as they are always fabulous sounding and she would never have been in this position to live the life she is now had I not stupidly past on that one job to her and if I had just taken the opportunity myself.

Quote:
As per the IM exchange you posted just a bit ago she clearly does not care about your job as she essentially scolded and bossed you around for having to work late on a project that had no solid timeline for completion. Instead of standing up to her and saying "W, I understand me being unable to provide you with an exact time is difficult at this moment I do not have a firm time as to when I will be done with my project deadline. In the future please respect my time when I am working and I will touch base with you within the hour to update my availability"

Instead you answered with "understood" as if she was a commander and you a mere peon. Needy, not attractive and it makes you sound like a wimp. Sorry to be blunt but your remind me of my H and he is so wimpy it's almost pitiful.


She wasn’t yelling at me for working late. I think she was yelling at me for the possibility of me intereferring with her plans for her “friends” or my real thought “OM” being at the house with her.

Quote:
Also, you said she wish she would just be upfront about what she is doing (OM) yet I doubt you were upfront with her about meeting a hooker, the girl at the bar and this other lady you thought was the bees knees. You are SEPARATED therefore stop wishing and live your life. You expect her to do things you don't do.


Ok, first, I was sitting at a place alone and a hooker approached me. I did not approach her or proceed to be with her. I got rid of her rather quickly. True with regard to the girl at the bar and the other girl though.

Quote:
I don't care if you stand, starve yourself, chant, use voodoo dolls or whatever the theme of the week is - DETACH and stop letting this woman steam roll you and boss you around like she does. Stop reading into EVERYTHING and pretend she doesn't exist unless it's about parenting.


I honestly think I have gotten a little better here, but I backslid last night with regards to my thoughts and emotions.

Quote:
What do you think about that?


As usual, I think it is excellent and applicable and what I need to continue to try doing. Thank you for responding and taking the time and effort to post what you did to me.

Kevin
Posted By: jon2911 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 08:30 PM
Kev,
I don't think I've ever seen such an active thread in my 2 years on this board. Your sitch really stirs people up!

This is a lot of progress, I can see from just skimming the developments. Keep it up!

Sometimes it helps me to go back and read my old threads. Might help you also, but yours are much longer.

Sorry I missed the message about Tuesday night. Still definitely want to meet you sometime. I'll send you an e-mail later.
Posted By: soleil Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 08:38 PM
Originally Posted By: CityGirl
I don't care if you stand, starve yourself, chant, use voodoo dolls or whatever the theme of the week is - DETACH


This is awesome!
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 08:43 PM
Originally Posted By: jon2911
Kev,
I don't think I've ever seen such an active thread in my 2 years on this board. Your sitch really stirs people up!


That's because he hems and haws and "backslides" and generally ignores advice that he doesn't want to hear.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 09:35 PM
Quote:
That's because he hems and haws and "backslides" and generally ignores advice that he doesn't want to hear.


Backslide, yes. Ignore, no.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 09:36 PM
Quote:
Sorry I missed the message about Tuesday night. Still definitely want to meet you sometime. I'll send you an e-mail later.


Sounds great Jon2911. Looking forward to it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 09:40 PM
Quote:
Actually I think this admission is a great way to show how you have actually changed.

The fact that you recognize that it was emotional and didn't let it get physical is a good step in the right direction. It showed that maybe you're starting to understand how you don't need someone to make you happy.


Thanks Stuck.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 10:02 PM
So W says I can swing by and get the Christmas tree tonight out of the garage. She said she won't be there. That is fine. I only have tonight to set it up with the girls. It has been a long and hard week. I don't know that I will get it done tonight. I may end up just doing it on my own. Or I may set it up this weekend and have them decorate on Tuesday when they come over.

I feel like I am failing this week with my kids. I have been working late all week and am tired when I get home. I just haven't gotten much accomplished this week during the evenings with what is left of them by the time me and the girls get home.

I guess I will go out with some friends tomorrow night and not sure what I will do Saturday or Sunday.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 10:08 PM
Ah, I am meeting with my priest tomorrow.

I think I will work on my resume this weekend and try and get a permanent job. It is time to get ready. All the budgets will start coming open in January.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 10:35 PM
If you can do your tree tonight...I would. You will have the rest of the weekend to take it easy. I think its important to do that with your kids.

Cowboys play this weekend right? smile
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 11:28 PM
Chargers 38 - Cowboys 17
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/10/09 11:46 PM
The Chargers actually won a game? They sucked when I was a Californian. lol
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 12:15 AM
For some reason I have yet to figure out when I try and quote posts and add my thoughts the screen jumps all over the place making it impossible to type. So pardon me if this is difficult to reference. I am responding to your response to my post (that is about clear as mud, I know).

Do not confuse mystery with being guarded. My H is about the most guarded person on the planet, mostly because he is afraid of his own shadow and rather weak in the emotional sense. Being guarded is annoying and a real turn off. Being mysterious is sexy and intriguing. So no, you don't need to be guarded with your W you need to be mysterious.

You know that sushi restaurant you like, the one where they roll the sushi right in front of you? Say you went there and a smokin' hot babe was rolling sushi and she gave you ONE BITE of the most delicious sushi you ever tasted but that was it. You would be intrigued. And lets say you asked this pretty sushi maker for more of that delicious treat and she winked at you and said "sure thing, come back another time for more". I bet you would be there the very next night. The sushi maker wasn't being guarded, she was being mysterious. Do you see the difference?

Honestly, the way you get excited about being with your W or a phone is so child like it's a turn off. I mean, it's a phone that you have had for a few days now so I am not really sure what the continued excitement is. You are not a child that got a new toy. You are a man that purchased a piece of technology to streamline your busy life. In my brother in laws family there are tons of little kids. When we all gather for a family event it gets annoying to have the same kid show you the same toy 40 times in a few hours. You sort of remind me of that. It's not cute or playful for a grown man to behave that way IMO.

I am not sure if I ever told you this but I met my H at work. We were both hired at the same company on the same day and we had to go through an extensive 8 week training course that was very tough. He and I, from a random draw, got paired up as training partners. What attracted me to him was how commanding and confident he was while we were learning all we had to learn. My H is very smart and an absolute whiz at making business deals. He never misses a bit and just makes it happen. Had he acted all giddy and silly when he started closing deals I would have thought he was an idiot. Of course, he was a nice guy, he and I had lots in common and he has blue eyes that could pierce holes through you and jet black hair (now that is mostly gray, lol!). Maybe this is just me but men that get excited about things I think are silly (new men toys, technology or a very small accomplishment) are major turn offs to me.

You said she wasn't yelling at you for having to work late but more that you working late rolled over to her time with her friends or OM. Too bad so sad, sister. That is what being a single parent is all about. Unless your children are sick or injured tell her to respect your time at work and not bother you about HER plans that are social.

My understanding is you had notified her ahead of time that you would be working late and unsure about the time you would finish. Yet, you still allowed her to rattle you and when you get rattled you get weak (EX: answering with "understood" like she is your boss or something).

You must learn to control your emotions around this woman. I will never understand the hold she has over you. If it bugs you to hear about her new jobs then tell her "W, I am not interested in hearing about this as it does not concern me what job you choose".

If something bugs you set a boundary so it doesn't bug you anymore. Simple. Reasonable. Logical. Yes?

I know you didn't do anything with the hooker. My point was, you have had 3 exchanges with ladies that we know of. You get upset when your W doesn't tell you about her exchanges with other men yet you work hard to keep your exchanged with other women very private.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 02:42 PM
Quote:
If you can do your tree tonight...I would. You will have the rest of the weekend to take it easy. I think its important to do that with your kids.

Cowboys play this weekend right?


SO2, I didn't get to the tree last night. I am going to set it up this weekend and then Tuesday night me and the girls will decorate it.

I expect the Cowboys to win this weekend.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 02:57 PM
Quote:
For some reason I have yet to figure out when I try and quote posts and add my thoughts the screen jumps all over the place making it impossible to type. So pardon me if this is difficult to reference. I am responding to your response to my post (that is about clear as mud, I know).


I copy and paste into MS Word and type my responses and then paste it back into the thread because I have had the same issue.

Quote:
Do not confuse mystery with being guarded. My H is about the most guarded person on the planet, mostly because he is afraid of his own shadow and rather weak in the emotional sense. Being guarded is annoying and a real turn off. Being mysterious is sexy and intriguing. So no, you don't need to be guarded with your W you need to be mysterious.


Got it.

Quote:
You know that sushi restaurant you like, the one where they roll the sushi right in front of you? Say you went there and a smokin' hot babe was rolling sushi and she gave you ONE BITE of the most delicious sushi you ever tasted but that was it. You would be intrigued. And lets say you asked this pretty sushi maker for more of that delicious treat and she winked at you and said "sure thing, come back another time for more". I bet you would be there the very next night. The sushi maker wasn't being guarded, she was being mysterious. Do you see the difference?


Yes, that is a darn good analogy.

Quote:
Honestly, the way you get excited about being with your W or a phone is so child like it's a turn off. I mean, it's a phone that you have had for a few days now so I am not really sure what the continued excitement is. You are not a child that got a new toy. You are a man that purchased a piece of technology to streamline your busy life. In my brother in laws family there are tons of little kids. When we all gather for a family event it gets annoying to have the same kid show you the same toy 40 times in a few hours. You sort of remind me of that. It's not cute or playful for a grown man to behave that way IMO.


I guess I never thought of it as childish. I see your point. Perhaps I have to much excitement about technology.

Quote:
I am not sure if I ever told you this but I met my H at work. We were both hired at the same company on the same day and we had to go through an extensive 8 week training course that was very tough. He and I, from a random draw, got paired up as training partners. What attracted me to him was how commanding and confident he was while we were learning all we had to learn. My H is very smart and an absolute whiz at making business deals. He never misses a bit and just makes it happen. Had he acted all giddy and silly when he started closing deals I would have thought he was an idiot. Of course, he was a nice guy, he and I had lots in common and he has blue eyes that could pierce holes through you and jet black hair (now that is mostly gray, lol!). Maybe this is just me but men that get excited about things I think are silly (new men toys, technology or a very small accomplishment) are major turn offs to me.


Ok. I also have blue eyes. lol. This is the first time you told me how you met your H. So what should men get excited about?

Quote:
You said she wasn't yelling at you for having to work late but more that you working late rolled over to her time with her friends or OM. Too bad so sad, sister. That is what being a single parent is all about. Unless your children are sick or injured tell her to respect your time at work and not bother you about HER plans that are social.

My understanding is you had notified her ahead of time that you would be working late and unsure about the time you would finish. Yet, you still allowed her to rattle you and when you get rattled you get weak (EX: answering with "understood" like she is your boss or something).


Yes, she was notified a few days ahead of time and agreed to watch the kids that night. Then she changed her plans that night while I was at work.

Quote:
You must learn to control your emotions around this woman. I will never understand the hold she has over you. If it bugs you to hear about her new jobs then tell her "W, I am not interested in hearing about this as it does not concern me what job you choose".

If something bugs you set a boundary so it doesn't bug you anymore. Simple. Reasonable. Logical. Yes?


Yes. I just need to enforce it.

Quote:
I know you didn't do anything with the hooker. My point was, you have had 3 exchanges with ladies that we know of. You get upset when your W doesn't tell you about her exchanges with other men yet you work hard to keep your exchanged with other women very private.


Not upset. Just get tired of the pretending game. But it is what it is for the time being.

Thanks CG,

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 03:06 PM
I think you being mysterious with your wife with be good for both of you. She knows when she calls you will come running and hope for a crumb of hope. Its wrong. She chose her life to be this way and at some point you will go on.

Now, if I can only take my own advice smile
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 03:16 PM
I think you missed my point or I didn't express it in a clear fashion. You can get excited about whatever you want but the way you express yourself (at least in writing, via this message board medium) comes across as very childlike.

To be blunt, you are a grown man and your W left you and has had multiple affairs. To be excited about spending a day with a woman that has zero respect for you, bosses you around and only is nice to you when she needs something is beyond my understanding. Honestly, I don't get being excited about a phone for several days but that is just me. I don't think you were so much excited about your phone, you were excited your W was showing interest in something you had.

Your W likes to be in control. When she doesn't get her way she stomps her feet and acts like a first class b*tch. This is where you can really change the dynamic but I think you are afraid of ticking her off and she knows that so her b*tchy behavior continues. You set one boundary, she doesn't like it so you just drop it. You still seem to be in the mindset that setting boundaries will make things worse as far as the M goes but they will make things better for YOU.

Stop sharing anything with her unless it has to do with parenting. I really don't know how else to advise you.

Three days before T-day my H texted me thanking me for a pkg of documents I sent him. I ignored him and did not respond. On T-day he texted me wishing me a happy T-day which I also ignored and did not respond to. About 10 days ago he came by to pick up his flatscreen tv which I put in the hall and was kind enough to stand out there with the tv until he arrived. He was so rude it was almost comical. I smiled and was as happy as ever, made no small talk and once the tv was safely in his possession I told him to have a fantastic night, smiled at him like I was in a toothpaste commercial and went inside. I have not heard from him since. OH WELL!

I have zero interest in his obligatory holiday texts. He is no longer part of my life, my family nor is he my friend. The night before our separation became final he called me begging me to trust him, he would never turn his back on me again and he was going to "make this right". LOL! WAS script at its finest. One holiday text hardly is "making things right" and he is the master at BS and he and I BOTH know it.

He wanted out of the M well he got it. Nobody gets both. The loyal and loving LBS and the GF on the side. Your W shouldn't get both either.
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 03:27 PM
Great post CG! You spoke to me as well.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 03:34 PM
CG,

I will respond to your post in just a second. I just wanted to get this out and get an opinion real quick.

W just IM'd me asking if I could pick up D7 since she has to stay late tonight and then is meeting a recruiter after. I have my appointment with my priest tonight.

Should I tell her no? She has watched my kids a few times for me now.

Not sure what action to take.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 03:37 PM
When it comes to your kids, I would always say yes if you possibly can. Can you reschedule your priest appointment?
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 03:39 PM
It's simple Kevin. Dont over complicate it.

Are you available or not? Sounds to me like you have plans already.

Perfect time to start setting those boundaries dont you think?

Your daughter will be fine either way.

Stop being your WAW's Beotch!
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 03:39 PM
Hi W, I appreciate your dilemma but I also have an appt. tonight that I really cannot miss that has been scheduled for some time now. Let me know what solution you come up with and I will do my best to help if I am able.

Did your W tell you should would be staying late at work tonight or did she just find out this morning? Funny how she griped at you for having to stay late and you told her ahead of time but she still wanting you to drop everything for her to be social. Now the shoe is on the other foot - she needs your assistance for HER JOB and she expects you to give it to her. Y'day when you needed her assistance for YOUR JOB she wasn't all that nice.

Don't take any action. Let her figure it out. Let her know you will be available to assist her AFTER your appt. That is what I would do.
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 03:40 PM
Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
It's simple Kevin. Dont over complicate it.

Are you available or not? Sounds to me like you have plans already.

Perfect time to start setting those boundaries dont you think?

Your daughter will be fine either way.

Stop being your WAW's Beotch!

Ok, very true! Don't listen to me, I have a huge bootmark on my forehead. You do have plans. You don't have to say what they are.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 03:42 PM
I can reschedule it. I went ahead and told her I would get the girls for her so she can work late and meet with her recruiter. Interesting that she always seems to meet with recruiters at night. That is just a little strange.

Kevin
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 03:44 PM
Come on Kev...

Make the decision. You are much wiser than you give yourself credit for...........

There is nothing wrong with you. wink

Woops, I see you already told her. Sorry.
Yes, it does seem rather strange doesn't it? Wonder why?

Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 03:44 PM
whoops, wish I would have seen these before I responded to W. I looked at SO2's post and went ahead and responded. Great. 2X4 needed.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 03:46 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
whoops, wish I would have seen these before I responded to W. I looked at SO2's post and went ahead and responded. Great. 2X4 needed.

Kevin


LOL I told you I am the wrong person to listen to! I am the classic doormat in recovery!
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 03:48 PM
That's because you REACTED instead of REFLECTING which is another point a bunch of us have made many times.

Start working on your level of PATIENCE. That would definitely be a 180 for you.

Do you want to CHANGE for the BETTER or not?

You are the only one that has the POWER and CONTROL to do this.

Enough said.

PMA
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 03:48 PM
Dinner meetings with recruiters are not strange at all. Most recruiters know that it can be difficult for potential candidates to take time off work to be woo'd and are more than happy to meet them after hours. Recruiters are paid big bucks to close a deal and will meet when it's best for the candidate so they can make their commission.

Don't speculate. She may be telling the truth or she may be lying. WHO CARES? What irks me is she was not very helpful to you last night when you had to work late yet the VERY NEXT DAY you cancel something that is important to you to help her w/a work issue. You are still doing things for her she is unwilling to do for you. In fact, she doesn't even give it a second thought unless it benefits her.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 03:50 PM
SO2 - Dont apologize. Kids should always come first, but gaining SELF RESPECT and setting BOUNDARIES sometimes is a bigger priority.

PMA
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 03:53 PM
I am bumping my appointment with my priest up to 6pm tonight so I will have time to go get D7 and take her to the house with D12.

I am trying to work with her because I do realize that I need her assistance some nights when I have to work late.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 03:54 PM
Exactly CG. Kev you are the only one that can STOP yourself from being an ENABLER. Then again. Maybe you cant. Maybe you CANT CONTROL YOURSELF OR YOUR EMOTIONAL REACTIONS. Maybe that is why all of us have suggested GETTING HELP.

Did you understand the story of the flood metaphor?

Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 03:56 PM
Okay, you asked. This is why I view as childlike. You W IM'd you and you asked how to handle it. Fine. We all need some suggestions from time to time on how to deal with a WAS.

IMO you should have waited at least an hour before you responded. Once again she disturbed you at work and didn't even offer you an apology for doing so. You jumped at the chance to do her a favor when she was clearly unwilling to do the same favor for you LAST NIGHT!

By waiting an hour or so to respond a few things could have happened... (A) she would see you don't jump when she contacts you especially while you are at work (B) you would have read the varied opinions on how to handle this and perhaps done things different and (C) perhaps she would have wondered why you took so long to respond.

It's a Friday night and you are a single man. In the future tell your W if she needs a favor on a night you are not scheduled to have the children, especially a WEEKEND night, you require advance notice as your child free weekends are jammed pack.

I would also tell her that she is not to disturb you at work unless there is a true emergency with the children.
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:00 PM
This isn't a boundary issue..

It is a simple yes or no issue..

"yes I will pick them up"
or
"no I can't pick them up"

I wouldn't let people complicate things here Kevin... It isn't complicated and this isn't a boundary issue.......

Your answer on this issue will have no bearing on much of anything to do with dbing.... just a yes or a no...

Posted By: gucci loafer Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:02 PM
CG.. You seem very angry at either Kevin or his wife or both.

Am I correct?
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:04 PM
It is not complicated, I agree 110%. That being said for Kevin it is complicated as he always caves to his W and her demands or favors.

I have been posting here since April of 2009 and reading for several months before I began posting. Kevin's threads are very active and long and I could be mistaken (and please pardon me if I am) but in the time I have been following Kevin's threads I have seen him stand up to his W one time. It seems, based on my interpretation of his posts that when it comes to his W nothing is simple for him.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:05 PM
Quote:
I think you missed my point or I didn't express it in a clear fashion. You can get excited about whatever you want but the way you express yourself (at least in writing, via this message board medium) comes across as very childlike.


I see your point.

Quote:
To be blunt, you are a grown man and your W left you and has had multiple affairs. To be excited about spending a day with a woman that has zero respect for you, bosses you around and only is nice to you when she needs something is beyond my understanding. Honestly, I don't get being excited about a phone for several days but that is just me. I don't think you were so much excited about your phone, you were excited your W was showing interest in something you had.


I was actually excited about my phone, but also excited about showing it to her. I don’t know why I was excited about showing her either. It really makes no logical sense to be excited about showing something to someone that treats me this way.

Quote:
Your W likes to be in control. When she doesn't get her way she stomps her feet and acts like a first class b*tch. This is where you can really change the dynamic but I think you are afraid of ticking her off and she knows that so her b*tchy behavior continues. You set one boundary, she doesn't like it so you just drop it. You still seem to be in the mindset that setting boundaries will make things worse as far as the M goes but they will make things better for YOU.


Setting boundaries seems to mean avoiding her and moving on with my life without her in it until she decides to have a change of heart. Is this right?

Quote:
Stop sharing anything with her unless it has to do with parenting. I really don't know how else to advise you.


For the most part, I really don’t share anything with her outside of parenting. I just did with the phone.

Quote:
Three days before T-day my H texted me thanking me for a pkg of documents I sent him. I ignored him and did not respond. On T-day he texted me wishing me a happy T-day which I also ignored and did not respond to. About 10 days ago he came by to pick up his flatscreen tv which I put in the hall and was kind enough to stand out there with the tv until he arrived. He was so rude it was almost comical. I smiled and was as happy as ever, made no small talk and once the tv was safely in his possession I told him to have a fantastic night, smiled at him like I was in a toothpaste commercial and went inside. I have not heard from him since. OH WELL!

I have zero interest in his obligatory holiday texts. He is no longer part of my life, my family nor is he my friend. The night before our separation became final he called me begging me to trust him, he would never turn his back on me again and he was going to "make this right". LOL! WAS script at its finest. One holiday text hardly is "making things right" and he is the master at BS and he and I BOTH know it.

He wanted out of the M well he got it. Nobody gets both. The loyal and loving LBS and the GF on the side. Your W shouldn't get both either.


I guess I have allowed her to have both to much. I see all of your points.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:09 PM
Angry? Goodness no!

It's very difficult to view our own situations with a clear view because we are directly involved. Outsiders (me, you and everybody else that posts to him) can see things in a different way as we are not emotionally invested in the same way Kevin is.

I can openly admit I do get frustrated at Kevin because the same advice is doled out frequently but rarely is it applied. I also get frustrated at Kevin ( and this is projection my part which I know is unfair) because I know what I went through before I really stood up to my H. I would up in the hospital so riddled with anxiety I could barely function. For almost 18 months I had people 2x4 me and I simply figured I knew a better way to handle a WAS (clearly I did not, lol!). I spent so much time worrying about my WAS I forgot about me. A hospital stay will wake you up. I never want that to happen to anybody. Ever.
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:13 PM
Its hard to be a hard a$$ with someone you love, married, and share children with. Especially when you weren't the one who wanted the D. I get that and sympathize with you Kev, but does it make it right to continue to be treated this way? NO. My exh was diagnosed by two different therapists as sociopath. Its all about him, and what is best for him, his schedule, his time.

There are alot of strong people on this board giving you advice. I am self admitted weak. Its a daily process and not easy at all to change. Three steps forward and two steps back my friend!
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:15 PM
He also doesn't stand up to you and others does he?

Think there may be a connection?
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:21 PM
I agree, making these changes is one of the hardest things any of us will ever do in our lives. And I also loved my husband of ten years very much.

We can only learn from ourselves and the experiences of others. I wish to the high heavens I would have worked on making small changes (and I am speaking about how I dealt with my WAS in an affair) daily instead of waiting for one big change to happen.

Had I done that I may have not become so ill and my life could have been better a long time ago.

I learned in the very hardest way that if you make small changes daily/weekly instead of waiting for one BIG sweeping change to happen (and they usually never do) you will get stronger and stronger and be less vulnerable to the crap a WAS pulls.

I could write novels about what my WAS did but instead I choose to focus on what *I* can do, for me and my present and future.

Nobody has to listen to anybody.. message boards are set up to be conversational with free flowing opinions and viewpoints. I learn so much from reading other threads and maybe every once in a while what I post can spark an idea for somebody.

smile
Posted By: Coach Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:22 PM


To quote you again Gucci - It's a simple yes or no question.

Quote:
He also doesn't stand up to you and others does he?


Y or N

Quote:
Think there may be a connection?


Y or N
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:23 PM
Quote:
I can openly admit I do get frustrated at Kevin because the same advice is doled out frequently but rarely is it applied.


My point exactly..

So why continue to do what isn't working?
It isn't working to keep giving Kevin 2x4's. Most all admit that. Why not stop doing what isn't working? Or doesn't that apply to helping others?


I find it fascinating that many KEEP on telling Kevin to do the very things they can't stop doing with Kevin. Which is to stop that which isn't working...
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:24 PM
Originally Posted By: gucci loafer
He also doesn't stand up to you and others does he?

Think there may be a connection?


I think some people are just more passive by nature. I am one of them. I hate conflict and will avoid it if I can. Its a tough place to be and some things that work for some peoples situations don't work for others. Different BS, different, WS, different dynamics altogether. I get 2x4'd alot on this board, and probably for good reason but when I step away from the computer and have to deal with exh I take what everyone says with me and do my best. It may be frustrating to some when we don't do what is needed, but that is why we are here isn't it? For help and support. I appreciate it all!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:24 PM
Quote:
Okay, you asked. This is why I view as childlike. You W IM'd you and you asked how to handle it. Fine. We all need some suggestions from time to time on how to deal with a WAS.

IMO you should have waited at least an hour before you responded. Once again she disturbed you at work and didn't even offer you an apology for doing so. You jumped at the chance to do her a favor when she was clearly unwilling to do the same favor for you LAST NIGHT!


I didn’t want to reschedule my appointment tonight. But like I said, I realize that from time to time I will need favors from her when it comes to the kids. So I agreed to do this tonight.

Quote:
By waiting an hour or so to respond a few things could have happened... (A) she would see you don't jump when she contacts you especially while you are at work (B) you would have read the varied opinions on how to handle this and perhaps done things different and (C) perhaps she would have wondered why you took so long to respond.

It's a Friday night and you are a single man. In the future tell your W if she needs a favor on a night you are not scheduled to have the children, especially a WEEKEND night, you require advance notice as your child free weekends are jammed pack.


The thing is that I can’t always give her advanced notice either when it comes to having to stay late at work. Sometimes I have no choice and I need to be able to rely on her to get the kids that night. My bosses aren’t always understanding when it comes to meeting deadlines that they sometimes ridiculously set knowing it will be difficult to meet them.

Quote:
I would also tell her that she is not to disturb you at work unless there is a true emergency with the children.


That is definitely some boundary setting.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:26 PM
I am not sure what you mean about Kevin standing up to me. He asked on another thread for my opinion so I gave it to him. He can take it or leave it, either way I responded because he asked me to. One response sort of leads to a conversation and I was under the impression we were just sharing opinions and ideas.

Sure, our opinions differ greatly but differing opinions can challenge both of us to think. I view this as a forum for advice and support but I don't read one thread where we don't challenge each other. I like that.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:28 PM
Originally Posted By: gucci loafer
So why continue to do what isn't working? It isn't working to keep giving Kevin 2x4's. <snip> I find it fascinating that many KEEP on telling Kevin to do the very things they can't stop doing with Kevin. Which is to stop that which isn't working...

... and that's why I've held my peace. You can only help those who are willing to try.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:29 PM
Gucci, Coach, SO2, CG, and PMA,

I read all of your posts. Thank you for the good advice. I need to apply it better. I thought I had been recently but I kind of backslid again I guess with these latest interactions it seems.

Believe me, it irritates me to have to work with my W when she so blatantly has no respect for me. But again, I feel like I have to at times knowing that I will need her assistance at times also when it comes to the kids.

Kevin
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:30 PM
Quote:

I didn’t want to reschedule my appointment tonight. But like I said, I realize that from time to time I will need favors from her when it comes to the kids. So I agreed to do this tonight.

The thing is that I can’t always give her advanced notice either when it comes to having to stay late at work. Sometimes I have no choice and I need to be able to rely on her to get the kids that night. My bosses aren’t always understanding when it comes to meeting deadlines that they sometimes ridiculously set knowing it will be difficult to meet them.



K4D, is there anyone else who can help with the kids if you are working late? I know how it is in IT and there are always emergencies or whatever at work and you get stuck. So, maybe a friend or neighbor can help you out with the kids sometimes.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:30 PM
Well, if you and your both know you might have to work late without having advance notice why don't the two of you put your heads together and come up with a backup plan when this happens?

That is not to say you won't help each other out but sometimes it might not be possible. You say your idea about a backup plan, let her state hers and go from there.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:32 PM
Quote:
I am not sure what you mean about Kevin standing up to me. He asked on another thread for my opinion so I gave it to him. He can take it or leave it, either way I responded because he asked me to. One response sort of leads to a conversation and I was under the impression we were just sharing opinions and ideas.

Sure, our opinions differ greatly but differing opinions can challenge both of us to think. I view this as a forum for advice and support but I don't read one thread where we don't challenge each other. I like that.


I agree CG. I did ask, and I appreciate your input. Otherwise I wouldn't have asked. You do challenge me like so many others on here do.

Kevin
Posted By: TrentC Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Gnosis
You can only help those who are willing to try.


Agreed. There are more than enough people here who are willing to listen to advice and put effort into making real changes; no sense in wasting time on people who aren't.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:46 PM
Quote:
K4D, is there anyone else who can help with the kids if you are working late? I know how it is in IT and there are always emergencies or whatever at work and you get stuck. So, maybe a friend or neighbor can help you out with the kids sometimes.


ppenton, I think I am going to have to start looking at that as an option since it seems to becoming more frequent. I'm just not sure who I know that could help out in those situations.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:49 PM
Quote:
Well, if you and your both know you might have to work late without having advance notice why don't the two of you put your heads together and come up with a backup plan when this happens?

That is not to say you won't help each other out but sometimes it might not be possible. You say your idea about a backup plan, let her state hers and go from there.


She has had her mom as a backup plan when I can't. I haven't had a backup plan because I don't know who can back me up when it happens.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:53 PM
Quote:
I think some people are just more passive by nature. I am one of them. I hate conflict and will avoid it if I can. Its a tough place to be and some things that work for some peoples situations don't work for others. Different BS, different, WS, different dynamics altogether. I get 2x4'd alot on this board, and probably for good reason but when I step away from the computer and have to deal with exh I take what everyone says with me and do my best. It may be frustrating to some when we don't do what is needed, but that is why we are here isn't it? For help and support. I appreciate it all!


SO2,

I perfectly agree here.

Kevin
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 04:53 PM
Quote:
I am not sure what you mean about Kevin standing up to me.


Well, to be quite honest with you, I sense that you talk the same type of way to Kevin that his wife seems to talk to him.

You are telling me you don't see that? you are direct,to the point,
take it or leave it, you should have this, you should have that, I told you this before, I told you that before, you should tell her this,.. (that is the attitude I sense in you with Kevin from my observations)(please note I didn't say it was right or wrong.. but just my observation)

I see that when you give him advice or a 2x4 he also reacts to you as he does his wife.. Which is him apologizing and saying he will try harder. He allows you to rip into him again and again and again and then comes back for more. You then say "well he asked for my advice, so I gave it to him".....

Which again is similar to his relationship dynamic with his wife.

That's what I see. I also see it in MLC25.. Same type of dynamic...... I wonder how long before one of you will come to the conclusion that it isn't working.. You, MLC25 or Kevin... (his wife came to that conclusion)

Just my opinion.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 05:04 PM
I didn't realize I was "ripping in to him".

I feel no matter who I post to I make my stance very well known. If you have a WAS who wakes up one day and dumps you out of the clear blue and is having an affair and drains you financially and gaslights you on a daily basis it's time to get tough. I think I am equally blunt and direct no matter who I post to.

As I said, I learned that in the most extreme fashion. Kevin is a slow learner in that department but so was I. Slower than Kevin if you can believe it.

If somebody in need asks for my input then I will offer it, especially when I have experienced the same thing. It takes an awful lot for me to give up on somebody. A flaw? Perhaps.

Many of us *are* tough on Kevin and I know my intention is not to come across as a b*tch. I simply am not invested in his situation the way he is therefore perhaps I (or other posters) can see things in a different way.

If you go back and read my thread you will see that MLC25 challenged me many times in the same way she challenges Kevin. For me, I learn the most when I am challenged. I realize not everybody learns in the same way.

Kevin, how do you learn best so we can change our approach when we post to you?
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 05:08 PM
Quote:
Well, if you and your both know you might have to work late without having advance notice why don't the two of you put your heads together and come up with a backup plan when this happens?


Again. This is making something simple more complicated...

The person that needs the backup plan is the person asking for the "favor".. The other person isn't responsible for the backup plan.

Again.. When she asks..

the answer is a yes or a no.. There is no need to get so deep into this relationship stuff. Not needed...

If Kevin asks her for the favor, then he needs the backup plan. He also should just happily accept her yes or her no or whatever else she chooses to say to him when he asks.....

K.I.S.S...
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 05:13 PM
Quote:
I didn't realize I was "ripping in to him".


I think you do. I really think you do know it.

That isn't the point though.

MY point.... is this...

YOU and others keep saying over and over and over that Kevin isn't "getting it"...

My point is that maybe it isn't Kevin that isn't getting it, but the ones that keep posting that to him aren't getting it..

If it isn't working then when are we going to try a different method. Isn't it possible that it is US that doesn't get it?

Nope.. HAS to be Kevin huh?....
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 05:14 PM
Guc - Are you suggesting they just ignore him and give up like countless others have?

This is a help/support forum last time I checked.

Kevin is the only one that CONTROLS whether he WANTS to CHANGE his DYNAMIC.

The rest of us are just observers.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 05:15 PM
How is coming up with a backup plan for childcare getting "deep into relationship stuff"?

I don't have children myself so perhaps I am way off base but I thought the whole concept of co-parenting was to remove the husband/wife stuff and work together on issues that include the children.

To me, all this BS of IM's and last minute plans could be avoided if they had a reliable backup plan in place. Nobody would be forced to change plans at the last minute, both parents would know their children are being cared for and nobody has to worry about doing anybody any favors.

Again, I don't have children so maybe my view on this is incorrect.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 05:24 PM
CG your views are not incorrect and I disagree that this isnt about boundaries EVERYTHING is about BOUNDARIES when you are trying to GAIN RESPECT especially if you have never set them before.

We are just here to offer advice. Some take it, others dont. God Bless the US and the 1st Amendment.

I personally, like others get frustrated when you offer the same advice over and over and nothing changes. But that is "my stuff" and my need to work on patience.

I personally feel the advice that both 25 and CG have been offering is priceless. Michelle couldnt have said it better herself. If Kevin would take the time to REFLECT on all these posts he might actually starting THINKING instead of just REACTING which is one of the top ten characteristics of an ADDICTIVE personality.

Merry Christmas Everyone! Peace and goodwill to all. HO HO HO!

Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 05:25 PM
Hey, maybe it is us. Maybe ALL of us that post here are way off base.

And if it wasn't your point to say in a public forum that I "rip into Kevin" then why mention it?

It's intersting to me that certain posters here take a far tougher stance than I do. When they do it they get cheers, when I do it I am "ripping into somebody". Funny how that works.

I suppose all I can say is I am grateful for the people that spent hours of time for close to 2 years 2x4'ing me. It took a LONG time for it to register. But without their experience to draw on and the absolute resolute stance they took with me I would probably still be in the corner of my living room rocking in a fetal position.

So, your suggestion is I stop posting to Kevin until he takes the advice? Or are you suggesting I just cheer him on even if I happen to have a different opinion? What would be your suggestion or how would you handle things?
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 05:25 PM
[quote]Interesting that she always seems to meet with recruiters at night. That is just a little strange.[\quote]

No it's not, being a recruiter it is very normal...If I have what I feel is a strong candidate I make myself available...STOP OVER THINKING EVERYTHING.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 05:29 PM
Better yet. WHO CARES! You are SEPERATED. DETACH! Work on YOU. blah blah blah. WAA WAA WAA... why do I feel like the teacher in Charlie Brown.
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 05:32 PM
I don't know about anyone else or how they handle child situations but with my first exh (we have a great D relationship) we each have first right of refusal. If something comes up then I call him first and ask if he can take the kids, if he cannot then its up to me to find alternate childcare. He does the same for me. I want to be asked first to take the kids. Why would you (or they) want to be with someone else besides a parent if it was at all possible?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 06:09 PM
Quote:
Kevin, how do you learn best so we can change our approach when we post to you?


I have learned a great deal. I realize that people have different ways of getting their point across. I am ok with that. The point being made is the important thing for me, not how it is delivered. The insight is invaluable and really helps me to think about things in a different and better way for how to approach future situations when they occur.

I am just not the best at applying it when I need to. Sometimes I am better than other times. I do apply alot, but when I don't or miss an opportunity to apply a good DBing technique, it does seem to get magnified. But I still draw from it what I should have done in the situation.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 06:10 PM
Quote:
If Kevin asks her for the favor, then he needs the backup plan. He also should just happily accept her yes or her no or whatever else she chooses to say to him when he asks.....


Agreed. I haven't had a backup plan. I need to look into one somehow.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 06:11 PM
Quote:
My point is that maybe it isn't Kevin that isn't getting it


I do get it. I just don't always remember to use it when I need to.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 06:12 PM
Quote:
Kevin is the only one that CONTROLS whether he WANTS to CHANGE his DYNAMIC.


This is very true. I desparately want to change the dynamic of things. I was doing better at it, but here recently slid back into caving in front of her.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 06:14 PM
Quote:
I personally feel the advice that both 25 and CG have been offering is priceless. Michelle couldnt have said it better herself. If Kevin would take the time to REFLECT on all these posts he might actually starting THINKING instead of just REACTING which is one of the top ten characteristics of an ADDICTIVE personality.


That is where I started slipping again is reacting before thinking.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 06:15 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Interesting that she always seems to meet with recruiters at night. That is just a little strange.


No it's not, being a recruiter it is very normal...If I have what I feel is a strong candidate I make myself available...STOP OVER THINKING EVERYTHING.


Good to know on this. I didn't realize that was actually common.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 06:16 PM
why?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 06:17 PM
Quote:
I don't know about anyone else or how they handle child situations but with my first exh (we have a great D relationship) we each have first right of refusal. If something comes up then I call him first and ask if he can take the kids, if he cannot then its up to me to find alternate childcare. He does the same for me. I want to be asked first to take the kids. Why would you (or they) want to be with someone else besides a parent if it was at all possible?


I would prefer first right of refusal as I love being with my kids. W doesn't always give me that option. Half the time it goes to her mom or a baby sitter. I'm not sure why the baby sitter gets priority over me sometimes.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 06:18 PM
Quote:
why?


Why what?
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 06:19 PM
why do you REACT instead of THINKING?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 06:23 PM
Quote:
why do you REACT instead of THINKING?


Stupidity on my part. Not being disciplined enough. I need to be more disciplined and wait to respond on anything each time a situation arises until I have thought it through. Probably waiting an hour like CG said is a great idea to put into practice going forward. I think I will start implementing that asap.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 06:28 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
why do you REACT instead of THINKING?


Stupidity on my part. Not being disciplined enough. I need to be more disciplined and wait to respond on anything each time a situation arises until I have thought it through. Probably waiting an hour like CG said is a great idea to put into practice going forward. I think I will start implementing that asap.

Kevin


That is a good thing to do, just be ready for the rude reaction. She won't like it at all that you are 'too busy' to get back to her right away if she is anything like my exh. When I would get back to him he would be completely irriated, say things like nevermind and whatever...which in turns sends me into sort of a panic at him being mad at me. Its the desired response he wants.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 06:48 PM
Quote:
That is a good thing to do, just be ready for the rude reaction. She won't like it at all that you are 'too busy' to get back to her right away if she is anything like my exh. When I would get back to him he would be completely irriated, say things like nevermind and whatever...which in turns sends me into sort of a panic at him being mad at me. Its the desired response he wants.


Ya, I know that will come with taking an hour to respond. Whenever she is rude to me, it always puts doubts in my mind of any progress I hope to be making.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 06:53 PM
CG,

Any plans to come to DFW and go dancing and bull riding for Christmas? lol.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 06:54 PM
Do you both understand what DETACHMENT means? Not caring about how your WAS REACTS is a BIG part of it.

Nothing you haven't heard before Kev. You have been at this for almost a year now. Waiting an hour or so to REACT is a start. That's just to give an initial reply. Most suggest waiting 48 hrs for anything heavy. REACTING with Emotions instead of Logic. Is what got 90% of us on this site in trouble.

Everytime you interact with your WAS it's another opportunity to SET BOUNDARIES and start DEMANDING the RESPECT you deserve.

I still have to do this with my X. I was a DOORMAT/ENABLER for so long that I still have to set BOUNDARIES every chance I get. As a COPARENT I now DEMAND that RESPECT. Before my self-respect was low enough where I let it go. Nothing good every came with giving in to every demand. Just like with kids. All it will do is create a SPOILED/ENTITLED child.

This doesnt mean you should be DISRESPECTFUL. It just means that you no longer make decisions based on what they think, but more importantly what YOU NEED and WANT.

Hold the line. PMA
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 06:56 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
CG,

Any plans to come to DFW and go dancing and bull riding for Christmas? lol.

Kevin


I will! I used to go there all the time. I love Texas. I have a feeling my son will end up moving there in a few years. He spends summers in Whitesborough (sp?) where ever that is!
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 06:57 PM
See, the issue is (IMO of course) is that you want progress with the M but what you need to focus on is progress for YOU first. Once you have progressed to a stronger place of being able to set boundaries and keep your emotions in check and not bending over for your W THEN things might look a bit different to you.

You base everything you do on how your W will or will not react hence the reason things stay really stagnant for you.

FWIW I to understand how terribly difficult it is to change the behavior pattern of being very reactionary. That was a huge flaw of mine for a long time with my H. My H isn't much of a communicator and I always felt like I had to pull teeth to get him to discuss very basic things. It used to frustrate me and I did not deal with that frustration in a good way. I never felt heard or validated and instead of doing something productive and positive to change the dynamic before it blew out of control I reacted on pure emotion. It wasn't that I didn't think, I simply had reached a dead end in trying to communicate with my H (this was before the bomb, btw). Looking back I realize I expected him to communicate with me the way I thought communication should be instead of how it could work for both of us.

My H and I got in a very dangerous dynamic of "button pushing" and we both knew how to do it well. My H in general is not very good at communicating with anybody but the husband/wife dynamic of communicating is much deeper an issue that communicating with the general public. My H wouldn't even call up for take out!

My point? Being reactionary is not always about not thinking, it's more about not being able to mask frustration about a problem that is ongoing. Had I been smart and just shoved my frustration aside perhaps I could have changed that dynamic between H and I. Or I should say that is how it was in my M.
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 07:00 PM
Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
Do you both understand what DETACHMENT means? Not caring about how your WAS REACTS is a BIG part of it.

Nothing you haven't heard before Kev. You have been at this for almost a year now. Waiting an hour or so to REACT is a start. That's just to give an initial reply. Most suggest waiting 48 hrs for anything heavy. REACTING with Emotions instead of Logic. Is what got 90% of us on this site in trouble.

Everytime you interact with your WAS it's another opportunity to SET BOUNDARIES and start DEMANDING the RESPECT you deserve.

I still have to do this with my X. I was a DOORMAT/ENABLER for so long that I still have to set BOUNDARIES every chance I get. As a COPARENT I now DEMAND that RESPECT. Before my self-respect was low enough where I let it go. Nothing good every came with giving in to every demand. Just like with kids. All it will do is create a SPOILED/ENTITLED child.

This doesnt mean you should be DISRESPECTFUL. It just means that you no longer make decisions based on what they think, but more importantly what YOU NEED and WANT.

Hold the line. PMA


If I wait even 1 hour my exh will send the same text 3 times and then start with the hello? you there?. If I waited 48 hours he would be beating down my door, calling my kids, and saying he was worried about baby because I didn't answer.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 07:14 PM
Originally Posted By: Startingover2
If I wait even 1 hour my exh will send the same text 3 times and then start with the hello? you there?. If I waited 48 hours he would be beating down my door, calling my kids, and saying he was worried about baby because I didn't answer.


That should tell you something. I'm not saying you dont reply at all. IMO - You should wait an hour or so depending on the urgency of the requests. Then reply with a "I'll think about it" or "I'll get back to you" etc. That is taking CONTROL of the CONVO TEMPO. It is also setting BOUNDARIES that you are NOT a puppet and will ONLY reply when you feel you have been shown RESPECT.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 07:40 PM
I am not sure if I ever shared this before but in case I haven't this is a very good example of why it's not only important to set boundaries but enforce them. Had I enforced the boundary I had set this night never would have happened.

After my H moved out and I learned of his affair (but kept quiet about it) I told him he was no longer to just use his keys and walk in like he still lived here. Legally he didn't have to give me the keys back because nothing had been initiated through attnys/the legal system yet. When I told him this was my boundary he was actually very nice about it, said he understood and in the future would ring the bell. This was on a Thurs. evening. On Friday he sent me a very civil e-mail stating once again he understood why I no longer wanted him to just walk in and he would respect my wishes.

On Sat. he was supposed to come over at 3pm and he showed up several hours late w/o so much a phone call. When he did show up he used the key, walked in, got himself a beer and some chips and salsa and sat on the couch like he lived here. I was so stunned that I actually stood in the kitchen and wondered if I was the crazy one and I had imagined our talk both Thurs. and Friday about him NOT coming in with his key.

Internally I was fuming but I didn't say a word. Big mistake. He watched the clock until it was time to go meet OW. He actually said to me "I am not trying to be mean but I have to go meet someone". Well I exploded. I was so furious he just walked in then watched the clock to go meet his GF. He then exploded back and said that he knew I didn't really mean what I said about the key. This turned into a very long, very awful, very explosive argument that easily was one of the top 10 worst nights of my life.

Now... ALL of this could have been avoided the second he used that key. I should have said "H, since you cannot respect my wishes about not just walking in here then you must leave". At the time I was happy with any crumb he tossed me so I let my boundary slide to spend time with him. It only resulted in him further disrespecting me, a horrid argument and additional pain for me.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 07:49 PM
Sorry that you had to experience that CG. Glad you chose to learn from it and gain inner strength.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 07:56 PM
It was a learning experience indeed. MUCH of my pain, anxiety and anguish could have been avoided had I enforced the boundaries I tried to set early on. I have nobody to blame but myself for that.

Looking back it was such a vicious circle. Prior to the bomb, for our whole marriage actually, if I was upset or had certain feelings I tried to express to my H he would ALWAYS tell me NOT to feel that way. When he said (that night I just posted about) that he knew I didn't really mean what I said about the key and him not coming in I seriously saw red. Once again he was telling me what I thought and what I meant and stupid me, instead of setting and enforcing more aggressive boundaries I tolerated it and actually validated his bad behavior by allowing it to continue. On my part that was all me and self inflicted pain because I refused to listen to people that actually had mastered the technique of setting boundaries.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 08:04 PM
That sounds very controlling. Was he always that way or did it build up over time from lack of boundaries? Is he like that towards his family? OW?
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 08:10 PM
I think some people do this just to see what they can get away with. If he continued to be able to just walk in her house as he pleases it would be wonderful for him. Cake eating at its finest!
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 08:12 PM
My H wasn't really controlling. I really do believe he has such a hard time expressing himself most of the time he thinks he is being helpful/supportive and he comes off like an ass.

When I was first diagnosed with Lupus I started meds that made my hair very thin and caused a very rapid weight loss. I just felt so ugly. I would try and express to him why I felt so ugly and terrified and he would say "you shouldn't feel that way". From his standpoint he was *trying* to say it will be okay and you are not ugly. Then I would try and explain to him that I *do* feel that way and why.

Unless he is talking to his parents about movies, golf or some other "safe" topic they do not communicate at all about "real life things". His entire family sweeps everything under the rug and nothing is ever addressed until one of them just explodes. Then the explosion happens, everybody acts like nothing happened and that cycle continues. His grandparents are like that, his parents are like that and so is he.

The OW is *very* clingy and needy and jealous of me. Not sure what she is jealous of as I have virtually no contact with my H at all. I know their R is filled with drama and they break up just about each day. My H looks like he has aged about 15 years and he just looks empty when I see him. I am not saying he is sad about me but I think many realities are hitting him in the face at once. I also know my H can't be alone.

I have know my H for 13 years and communication has always been very difficult for him. My family talks about EVERYTHING, that is how I was raised. His family talks about NOTHING so that is normal to him.
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 08:17 PM
I have seen that type of dynamic before. Not healthy. Bad habits.

Have you figured out what you WANT and NEED? Do you still want him in your life?
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 08:24 PM
No, I do not want him in my life. He may have changed but towards me he acts no different. He doesn't validate anything I think or express to him. He still justifies or has an excuse for everything and honestly feeds me so much BS I just won't tolerate it anymore.

I have worked way too hard and grown way too much to regress back. Also, he is still with his A two years later and that is a deal breaker for me. In his mind once we legally separated he and I would get to know one another again and if that went "good" THEN he would tell his GF! LOL! He actually verbalized this plan to me.

All my H does is speculate and mind read, or at least he continues to do that with me. I really am just over it. My life is far more peaceful now and I am totally comfortable with the decisions I have made over the past few months.

I don't hate him or even dislike him but I won't sneak around with my own husband while he has a GF! He whines that he puts a wall up around me so he won't get hurt more. I have no time for that. I simply need a stronger man that doesn't let things fester until he snaps and runs to remove himself from a difficult situation. And the absolute disrespect of sleeping with a co-worker before we were officially separated is unacceptable to me. He has shown not an ounce of remorse and still justifies it. So, I told him to go be happy and I will too smile
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 08:29 PM
Originally Posted By: CityGirl
No, I do not want him in my life. He may have changed but towards me he acts no different. He doesn't validate anything I think or express to him. He still justifies or has an excuse for everything and honestly feeds me so much BS I just won't tolerate it anymore.

I have worked way too hard and grown way too much to regress back. Also, he is still with his A two years later and that is a deal breaker for me. In his mind once we legally separated he and I would get to know one another again and if that went "good" THEN he would tell his GF! LOL! He actually verbalized this plan to me.

All my H does is speculate and mind read, or at least he continues to do that with me. I really am just over it. My life is far more peaceful now and I am totally comfortable with the decisions I have made over the past few months.

I don't hate him or even dislike him but I won't sneak around with my own husband while he has a GF! He whines that he puts a wall up around me so he won't get hurt more. I have no time for that. I simply need a stronger man that doesn't let things fester until he snaps and runs to remove himself from a difficult situation. And the absolute disrespect of sleeping with a co-worker before we were officially separated is unacceptable to me. He has shown not an ounce of remorse and still justifies it. So, I told him to go be happy and I will too smile


Wow CG. You have described my exh almost to a T! You are so much stronger than me though. I am very much still caught up in him. The part where you said he wanted to get to know you again and then break it off with GF is so much like what my exh said to me a few weeks ago...actually he said that he did end it with her, but I know they still communicate. He wants to go slow and that HE is slowly letting go of the past!

Sorry to hijack Kev!
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 08:33 PM
That sounds great. I feel the same way. I still have my work to do. I gave way too much of myself to my X and now I am trying to rebuild what was taken. It takes time. I still have problems letting go of the past. I try to forgive but because of all the lies that she told and continue to tell it's not easy.
Especially when they affect my daughter.

Hopefully with time my wounds will continue to heal.

Nice chatting with you.

Stay Strong. PMA
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 08:34 PM
Wow CG,

Thanks for sharing that story. I see your points about setting boundaries and keeping them. I appreciate that.

I am sorry you went through such hell. But I am glad to see you are a much stronger person now and you are able to help so many people because of your own experiences. And you have a big heart to do that.

I definitely appreciate it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 08:35 PM
Quote:
Sorry to hijack Kev!


I never mind it.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 08:36 PM
As I said... I didn't reach this conclusion overnight and it wasn't until I had an actual nervous breakdown from the stress and anxiety that I finally started using my brain.

This situation has been going on for almost two years so things are not quite as fresh for me anymore. If you could read my journals from that first year you probably would never guess it was me that penned such entries.

My life changed the day I spent 12 hours pacing my apartment unable to breath or even function. I thought I was hiding my anxiety so well but I wasn't. My mom came over and said she didn't care if I hated her for the rest of my life but I had two choices and if I did not choose she would choose for me. Choice one was allow her to take me to the dr. that minute or choice two was she was taking me to the hospital. By this point I weighed under 100 pounds, I was in very bad shape due to my Lupus and my anxiety was actually diagnosed as a situational panic disorder. I was a true mess of a person so stuck, so riddled with pain and anxiety I wanted to go to sleep and never wake up. I didn't leave my house for months and became terrified of normal things (walking my dog, getting the mail).

So, many wonder why I keep talking with Keven when clearly it doesn't work. That is why. For almost 18 months nobody gave up on me.. not my divorce support group, not my family or friends even though I would not listen. I put myself through a horrid ordeal and it would have been 10 times more horrible had everybody given up on me since what they tried to do for 1.5 years "didn't work".
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 08:37 PM
Quote:
That sounds great. I feel the same way. I still have my work to do. I gave way too much of myself to my X and now I am trying to rebuild what was taken. It takes time. I still have problems letting go of the past. I try to forgive but because of all the lies that she told and continue to tell it's not easy.
Especially when they affect my daughter.


I don't have problems so much letting go of the past. I have problems accepting the present and future of this continued path my W is on.

That is where detachment should be my #1 priority.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 08:45 PM
Quote:
I wanted to go to sleep and never wake up


I have felt this way so many nights and mornings this past year. Occasionally, I still feel this way. But it is less frequent now than it used to be. Every day I find a reason to get up. It might be my kids. It might be hope that maybe today things will change. It might be a number of things that I find to get myself up and out of bed and proceeding with the day. But I still do occasionally have those moments of wanting to go to sleep and not wake up.

When I was in Florida, it was really bad. I wanted to end my life. I called the suicide hotline. I got on some meds which I am happy to say that I no longer need to be on now and haven't been on in a while. But I was on them for months to just be able to cope emotionally. I saw no bright side of life or a future without my W and kids. I found myself wishing I would drop dead of a heart attack, a feeling I know my W also had towards me.

But those days are in the past. Now it is more of trying to be a divorce buster and not losing track of what I should be doing each day

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 08:49 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
That sounds great. I feel the same way. I still have my work to do. I gave way too much of myself to my X and now I am trying to rebuild what was taken. It takes time. I still have problems letting go of the past. I try to forgive but because of all the lies that she told and continue to tell it's not easy.
Especially when they affect my daughter.


I don't have problems so much letting go of the past. I have problems accepting the present and future of this continued path my W is on.

That is where detachment should be my #1 priority.

Kevin


How is it that we don't have an issue letting go of the past when they have done horrible things to us, yet they are the ones seemingly in the drivers seat? Not that we each haven't contributed to the demise of the M, but certain issues such as infedelity are different.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 08:55 PM
Quote:
How is it that we don't have an issue letting go of the past when they have done horrible things to us, yet they are the ones seemingly in the drivers seat? Not that we each haven't contributed to the demise of the M, but certain issues such as infedelity are different.


I can get past the infidelity of the past because I guess I am a forgiving person and I love my W and want my family back together. But it is hard to accept the present infidelity going on. If it would stop, I could let it be in the past. But it is not stopping at this time. It sucks every day knowing the infidelity is going on and how long that will last.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 08:57 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
How is it that we don't have an issue letting go of the past when they have done horrible things to us, yet they are the ones seemingly in the drivers seat? Not that we each haven't contributed to the demise of the M, but certain issues such as infedelity are different.


I can get past the infidelity of the past because I guess I am a forgiving person and I love my W and want my family back together. But it is hard to accept the present infidelity going on. If it would stop, I could let it be in the past. But it is not stopping at this time. It sucks every day knowing the infidelity is going on and how long that will last.

Kevin


Yep...my exh says that he ended it with MGF, but I know they continue to have contact. We are divorced so by all rights he can do what he wants, but if he truly means what he says (which is doubtful) he wouldn't be leaving the door open with other women. I can get past the infedelity if he would just stand up and be a man of morals and integrity!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 09:03 PM
It is amazing that we can get past the infidelity if it would stop and yet they just keep on doing it.

In my case, my W actually wants me to hook up with other women. Go figure.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 09:08 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
It is amazing that we can get past the infidelity if it would stop and yet they just keep on doing it.

In my case, my W actually wants me to hook up with other women. Go figure.

Kevin


Maybe...maybe not! When exh and I were first separated prior to baby I dated this one guy for a few weeks. He was great. I ended it because I still loved exh and wanted my M, and also how exh reacted to it. When exh got wind of it thru the gossip mill he freaked out! I mean called me and accused me of cheating, not wanting our M back, how could I if I really loved him...blah, blah, blah. Yet, he was with OW, me, and most likely countless other women. He would have this strange sense when I was on a date and call and text over and over. It was a complete double standard. Now, I haven't dated or done anything in 18 months. Morally speaking we are divorced and I could but haven't.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 09:10 PM
Well, she doesn't stop because she knows you will keep getting past it.

Say to her... "W, due to your continued sexual R's with other men I have decided to file for divorce and move forward with my life".

If she says okay then file and be done. If she says no then tell her what you expect of her and what must happen for YOU to decide if you want to rebuild this marriage.

Show her you will no longer get past her affairs and do something about it!
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 09:10 PM
Kevin - She doesnt want to stop because she is "emotionally divorced". You can either accept it or not, but that is reality.

Go listen to Tim McGraws "Live like you were dying" and start doing it.

Someday you will kick yourself for giving her any more of yourself then you already have.

Show her the new Kevin and you might get different results. PERIOD.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 09:55 PM
Quote:
Kevin - She doesnt want to stop because she is "emotionally divorced". You can either accept it or not, but that is reality.


I have accepted that PMA. It sucks, but it has been accepted that it is what her mindset is right now.

Quote:
Go listen to Tim McGraws "Live like you were dying" and start doing it.


The words are inspirational in that song. Approach life like I am about to die. Good concept.

Quote:
Someday you will kick yourself for giving her any more of yourself then you already have.


I know you are 100% right on this. I already regret throwing away a year of my life being focused on her and not getting my own life going in a better direction. At the same time, I needed this past year to figure some things out and be able to adjust for the current reality of things.

Quote:
Show her the new Kevin and you might get different results. PERIOD.


Believe me, from what she saw a year ago, I have improved dramatically in many areas when around her. But I still have improving to do around her and with my own life.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 09:57 PM
Sounds like you're on the right path. It's time for another list of short and long term goals.

I would make not reacting right away and waiting at least an hour as number 1 on your short term list.

Keep WORKing.

PMA
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 10:01 PM
Quote:
Well, she doesn't stop because she knows you will keep getting past it.


I wonder if it is not more of a case of rebellion than anything. But it could be what you said to.

Quote:
Say to her... "W, due to your continued sexual R's with other men I have decided to file for divorce and move forward with my life".

If she says okay then file and be done. If she says no then tell her what you expect of her and what must happen for YOU to decide if you want to rebuild this marriage.


The nuclear bomb of divorce busting. And no turning back once it is put into motion. I honestly think she would be overjoyed if I filed because it would save her the hassle of having to do it herself.

Quote:
Show her you will no longer get past her affairs and do something about it!


This is an absolute must. Just am I ready to drop the nuclear bomb to make the point? It is a very scary thought to do it and move forward with it. I'm not sure how I would explain to my kids that I finally put the end into motion. I was ready to at one point but was talked out of it. I am not sure I am ready to file. But I do have to show in some form or fashion that I won't continue to put up with ongoing A's.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 10:03 PM
Quote:
Sounds like you're on the right path. It's time for another list of short and long term goals.

I would make not reacting right away and waiting at least an hour as number 1 on your short term list.

Keep WORKing.

PMA


It is time for a new list of short term and long term goals. The first one is not responding to her anymore for at least an hour. That one I am implementing here and now. I need to sit down this weekend and come up with the rest.

Kevin
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 10:21 PM
As my Dad always told me. "Talk is cheap. JUST DO IT!" He also likes to say. "Put up or shut up".

You get the picture.

Your girls will love you either way Kevin. You have tried. You were and are a stander. At some point they will also think your a doormat if you let this DISRESPECT continue.

It's time for her to $hit or get off the pot.

All this is doing is letting the resentment build. What happens in 4 mons from now when she files again because she met Mr. Wonderful. Will the time had made a difference. Set your boundaries now.

Did you miss my point about the Tim McGraw song? What if you were told you only have 6 mons to live. Would you spend it waiting for your WAW that is confused and screwing around or would you start enjoying your life without her.

If you would only take a stand and show her strength and that you wouldnt want her back she might start to care. But since you are still jumping at everything she says or does she knows that she still has to wrapped around her finger. She knows that she can play the guilt card against you whenever she wants. Show her that you no longer are going to play that game. Make 2010 the year that Kevin took back his self-respect. Found his inner strength. Gave up drinking and any other addictive/reactive behaviors. Do you need Rob Schneider yelling "You can do it!!!" outside your bedroom window? Come on man. She's not worth it. You and your girls deserve better treatment. Go to the bathroom and yell FREEEEDOM!!!! like Mel Gibson in Braveheart.

Now charge up that hill soldier!!! Keep on going until you hit the top!!!!

oh and also go rent "It's a wonderful life and family guy" cry your eyes out and move on to live your life. Dont you deserve to be happy???


Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/11/09 10:30 PM
I saw your post about waiting to respond on my thread! I already started today and the wrath began. Lets both do it just for this weekend as a start!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/12/09 08:14 AM
PMA,

I have watched "It is a wonderful life" many times and I never get tired of it. I haven't seen family guy. I guess I should check it out. I like your energy and positive outlook.

SO2,

We are both doing it this weekend. I am with you. Lets do it together. I am on board with you.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/12/09 01:58 PM
ok...deal.

I may have blew it already last night, but start over this morning.
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/12/09 10:24 PM
Kev..im going out! Wow! Excited!

How are you doing on the not responding?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/13/09 07:21 AM
Well,

So far W wanted to discuss Christmas plans with me tonight. I never did contact her to discuss them.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/13/09 07:36 AM
Last night I went to see my priest. Then I met with a friend who is going through an absolute horrible divorce. This is one for the books. I have never heard of someone doing what this person is doing to my friend. Unreal. I am stunned that a judge would even allow this to happen. But I won't speak of the details right now. But some people truly are horrible and put others in a worse position than I am in.

Today I went to the church to help with others renovate the new parish we bought. I figured it was something good and constructive I could do with some of my time.

This evening I went to a friends house who has viewed this site but never posted. He and his W are separated. We ate dinner and played some board games with another friend of his that showed up. It was a fun evening.

Tomorrow is mass in our new building. I am going to work out again after mass, tidy up my place, work on my resume and then go to W's house and get out tree and set it up so that me and the girls can decorate it on Tuesday night when they come back over. D12 has a choir concert at her school Tuesday so I will have to reschedule the C appointment. I'm sure W will try to get in the Christmas plans talk tomorrow night when I am over there.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/13/09 03:25 PM
Good for you in not responding right away. Its tough and all I do is stare at my phone at times, but its sort of empowering.

Meet the conversation head on like you have ideas about the plans yourself because you are such a busy and fun guy! smile
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/13/09 09:35 PM
Thanks SO2,

I just got a text from my W saying that her sister is inviting me to her daughters birthday party tuesday night and would I like to come that night and have my kids Monday or Wednesday night. I haven't responded. It seems like these invites I am getting now are because they days they want to have my girls, birthdays and Christmas are the days I have them. Just makes me wonder.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/13/09 09:40 PM
Respond tomorrow with:

Hi W: The b-day party sounds fun but the girls and I have plans for Tuesday night therefore the schedule cannot be switched. Enjoy the party!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/13/09 11:51 PM
I haven't responded yet. Now I just got a text from W's sister telling me her and her daughter would like to invite me to her daugthers birthday. Her daugher is 5. I doubt she had much of a request in for this.

I still haven't responded to either text. I know this is nothing more than I have the girls Tuesday night and Christmas day which is when my W's family wants them. If this had anything to do with me, I would think I would actually be invited now and then to something that wasn't on the night when I had the girls for something they are wanting the girls for.

Talk about manipulating.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/13/09 11:59 PM
Do you have something already planned for Tuesday? It would be nice to cancel on W to show your boundaries, but the sucky part is for your kids. IMO, unless you have some other plans already in motion for that night the only one that loses is your girls.

If you don't have some other plans I would actually take them. If you have plans then you have plans.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 12:03 AM
No,

I don't have any plans. D12 has a choir concert after school that I am attending and W and her family are attending. After that they want to do a birthday dinner at 7:30.

This really sucks the position they are putting me in. I know about plenty of other things they have been doing this month when W has had the girls, and not one phone call or text about inviting me. Now because I have the girls, I am all of a sudden invited. How am I supposed to feel about that. I am alreadying thinking about how uncomfortable this is going to be for me being with the family that wrote me off and banished me, knowing I am only there because they want my girls there.

I am really uneasy about going myself. I am almost half tempted to just tell them to take the girls and I will have them another night. Why do I want to be around people like that after the way they have been to me this past year and basically still are by simply trying to maniuplate me to get what they want.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 12:09 AM
It does suck that people are like this. I don't understand. Maybe you can trade W a night if it works for you. I don't think it makes you a doormat, it makes you think about your kids first. Can you have them Monday night and you can do your tree?
Posted By: P17 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 12:12 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I am alreadying thinking about how uncomfortable this is going to be for me being with the family that wrote me off and banished me, knowing I am only there because they want my girls there.


I'd cancel and take the girls somewhere. Then they don't miss out.

The point here is establishing that YOU are in control when YOU have the girls.

The girls don't need their dad feeling like cr*p, being uncomfortable and not being there for them while at the party. You need to look after you. The girls will get over it. Especially if you do something equally good with them.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 12:13 AM
W offered me them Monday or Wednesady night. I already have plans Monday night, so Wednesday night would be ideal if I take her up on that. She offered it to me with me coming to the birthday party. Again, I haven't responded to any of this yet. I just got done excercising and I am kind of fuming over the whole thing. I have to go get the tree from W in a bit and I know she is going to bring it up.

UGGG...

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 12:50 AM
figure out the african violet reference yet?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 05:38 AM
From Wikipedia...

Saintpaulia, commonly known as African violet, is a genus of 6 species of herbaceous perennial flowering plants in the family Gesneriaceae, native to Tanzania and adjacent southeastern Kenya in eastern tropical Africa, with a concentration of species in the Nguru mountains of Tanzania. The genus is most closely related to Streptocarpus, with recent phylogenetic studies suggesting it has evolved directly from subgenus Streptocarpella. The common name was given due to a superficial resemblance to true violets (Viola, family Violaceae).
Posted By: jon2911 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 06:35 AM
Seem to be a lot of positives Kev. Wish I could say that.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 08:42 AM
"I haven't responded yet. Now I just got a text from W's sister telling me her and her daughter would like to invite me to her daugthers birthday. Her daugher is 5. I doubt she had much of a request in for this.

I still haven't responded to either text. I know this is nothing more than I have the girls Tuesday night and Christmas day which is when my W's family wants them. If this had anything to do with me, I would think I would actually be invited now and then to something that wasn't on the night when I had the girls for something they are wanting the girls for."

Geez are you really that thick? For someone who has a priest for a friend, was an alcoholic and considers himself a stander, you're pretty judgemental. You jump to conclusions and consider all others beneath you. And before you disagree, look at what you just posted. About how manipulative her family is, how disgusting your W's actions are (from previous posts).

Let's face it. They have a reason not to invite you to anything. You were an alcoholic...a user who didn't care about anyone else's feelings but your own. And you're still like that.

Did you ever think that for once, maybe they invited you to be nice? Not everyone has an agenda. You even questioned why I and others posted to you as if we had other motives.

When you were firmly "standing" for your M, you said that even if your Ds were going out with an alcoholic or abuser, that they should stay M and that you would forgive their Hs and see that they got help. Well I don't see that happening. For someone with a priest as a friend and considers himself a godly man for standing, you sure have a problem with forgiveness. It's that same condescending attitude that you are showing towards your W. You'd have to be pretty blind not to see that.

It's really simple. Do you want to go or not? If you don't than don't. Don't blame others for your feeling awkward. You're being petty and showing your Ds that as well. No one's "manipulating" you.
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 01:59 PM
Quote:
This really sucks the position they are putting me in. I know about plenty of other things they have been doing this month when W has had the girls, and not one phone call or text about inviting me. Now because I have the girls, I am all of a sudden invited. How am I supposed to feel about that. I am alreadying thinking about how uncomfortable this is going to be for me being with the family that wrote me off and banished me, knowing I am only there because they want my girls there.

I am really uneasy about going myself. I am almost half tempted to just tell them to take the girls and I will have them another night. Why do I want to be around people like that after the way they have been to me this past year and basically still are by simply trying to maniuplate me to get what they want.


Kevin I read this and it comes across to me as selfish and a little childish...Just a few weeks ago you were talking about how you weren't even aloud around your inlaws to them slowly inviting you, so what that they don't invite you to everything...Your W even offered to give you another night AND come to the party...This is once again your wanting instant gratification, if you don't get what you want the way you want it it's not good enough.

More important question what do you think your D's want to do? Would they be ok or disappointed in missing the party?
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 02:19 PM
What the heck happened to the Cowboys?
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 02:41 PM
Kevin, Calling it like I see it, as usual:

It is a tough place to be in but it is best for the girls to get to have both you and them. You don't have to excuse or forgive their behavior for you to give this gift to your girls.

Forget the (stupid) game-playing. This is your chance to be the wonderful father you are. You can be polite to them, without forgetting what they did.

Its only manipulation if you view it that way. This is your chance to show off your changes and focus on your girls. They have their reasons, their feelings, and so do you, but the girls are the important ones here.

Maybe I'm not understanding something. Is she offering these things in exchange for you giving the girls up additional time/days? You can nicely accommodate, or politely decline, and still go to the birthday party, or have the in-laws come to the concert.

If you get so hung up on WHY the wife offered these you will miss out on the joy of the moment. Remember about filtering what you hear and making your own choices about what fits for you? (Phone convo)

Originally Posted By: K4D
No,

I don't have any plans. D12 has a choir concert after school that I am attending and W and her family are attending. After that they want to do a birthday dinner at 7:30.

This really sucks the position they are putting me in. I know about plenty of other things they have been doing this month when W has had the girls, and not one phone call or text about inviting me. Now because I have the girls, I am all of a sudden invited. How am I supposed to feel about that. I am alreadying thinking about how uncomfortable this is going to be for me being with the family that wrote me off and banished me, knowing I am only there because they want my girls there.

I am really uneasy about going myself. I am almost half tempted to just tell them to take the girls and I will have them another night. Why do I want to be around people like that after the way they have been to me this past year and basically still are by simply trying to maniuplate me to get what they want.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 03:01 PM
Hey Stuck, just how helpful do you think the insults are? Honestly, if he bugs you that much then take a break. Its Christmas for God's sake. Can't you be a little nicer?
Originally Posted By: stuck808


Geez are you really that thick? For someone who has a priest for a friend, was an alcoholic and considers himself a stander, you're pretty judgemental. You jump to conclusions and consider all others beneath you. And before you disagree, look at what you just posted. About how manipulative her family is, how disgusting your W's actions are (from previous posts).

Let's face it. They have a reason not to invite you to anything. You were an alcoholic...a user who didn't care about anyone else's feelings but your own. And you're still like that.


We all have heard this. We got it. Really.

Quote:
Did you ever think that for once, maybe they invited you to be nice? Not everyone has an agenda.


This was a better start.

Quote:
You even questioned why I and others posted to you as if we had other motives.


That might be because you throw in insults with advice. Even if he needs to hear things that are difficult, insulting the guy or saying things in a hurtful manner do not help him to change.

I'm sure you are going to want to blast me for saying this, and I've got broad shoulders to take it. But let me explain further, nobody changes because they are walking in lock step with orders. They are just good at following what others say.

The minute they are on their own without advice to follow they crumble and make mistakes, then come to the site, only to be blasted for the mistakes. It is far better to offer advice and let the person incorporate the advice and learn what works. Even if they skin their knees a lot, when they learn a lesson it sticks.

Kevin is learning to be Kevin. On his own, in his own head, within his own skin.

Quote:
When you were firmly "standing" for your M, you said that even if your Ds were going out with an alcoholic or abuser, that they should stay M and that you would forgive their Hs and see that they got help. Well I don't see that happening. For someone with a priest as a friend and considers himself a godly man for standing, you sure have a problem with forgiveness. It's that same condescending attitude that you are showing towards your W. You'd have to be pretty blind not to see that.


I'm sorry, but this sure sounds condescending to me. Take a break and think. Just how much did this help him?

Quote:
It's really simple. Do you want to go or not? If you don't than don't. Don't blame others for your feeling awkward. You're being petty and showing your Ds that as well. No one's "manipulating" you.


It isn't about coddling someone or ignoring what they do. Its more about offering constructive criticism with respect for Kevin as a human being.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 03:28 PM
Jon2911, Stuck808, VD, SO2, and The Wifey,

I decided to go ahead and join them on Tuesday. After thinking about it some, it does give me an opportunity to try and show them I am different than used to be. I can be positive and confident in front of all of them Tuesday night. It will be a little uncomfortable at first, but I can do it.

Last night W and I did sort out Christmas decorations and I got the tree. Apparently D12 has a Karate thing for her belt Wednesday night so I will get them Thursday night and we will decorate the tree then.

While we were going through stuff last night, W thought she had found our wedding candle that we lit every year on our anniversary. She said I could have it if I wanted it. That hurt a bit thinking wow, our M really didn't mean anything to her at all. 12 years of nothing in her mind.

Anyways, we came to the stockings. She asked how many I wanted. I said well, you haven't told me if you are coming over yet on Christmas morning. If you are not, I will take 3, if you are, I will take 4. She said that she will come over Christmas morning. So I took the 4. Christmas afternoon we will spend at her parents house with the rest of her family. Then she said she plans on taking the girls to a movie Christmas night. No invite to join. Ok, cool.

So at one point she finds a meat temperature checker she had gotten and asks me if I want that to be my Christmas present. Huh? I said no thanks. I didn't even know that we were getting each other anything for Christmas. Am I now so supposed to plan on getting her something? And if so, what? I got her something for her birthday that she had wanted and she went out of town on my birthday and got me nothing. So I wasn't planning on getting her anything for Christmas. Should I or should I not with her latest comment?

She felt the need to tell me that her and the girls and her family all went and had pictures made together yesterday. I didn't say anything to that. She then proceeded to tell me it was no big deal. Ok, why bother telling me then? Again, I didn't respond to it.

After we were done with that, I took D7 out to for pizza since she hadn't eaten and didn't want what W had. Me and D7 had a good dinner together and then I brought her back to her mom's.

It was onward home with the tree and decorations after that.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 03:37 PM
Thanks KJ,

I appreciate it. Thats the thing often is I take the advice, but then standing there in front of my W I often crumble with it. I get frusturated with myself for it to. I come back here and post what has happened and I do post my frusturations. But I now I have only myself to be frusturated with.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 03:40 PM
I think the Tuesday night thing is good. Show all of them you are fine and ok with doing this. Its for your girls and what is best for them.

As far as the gift, I would get something for her from the girls. Something small, not extravagent and something they would give her.

How are you doing on not responding quickly? I am doing decent..not great all the time. Saturday morning exh texted early to let him know when she was awake so he could come over. I didn't respond. He sent again. I didn't respond. Then he sent "What the F***?" I waited another hour and he was clearly mad that I didn't answer right away.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 03:46 PM
I think I did pretty good with not responding. I didn't respond to W until about 5 hours later. I didn't respond to her sister until an hour later.

It sounds like you are doing good to with not responding SO2. We can do this. I think we are making progress here together.

Kevin
Posted By: The Wifey Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 04:08 PM
Remember that nothing is a crisis. It is one day at a time. One lego at a time.
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 04:10 PM
Quote:
I decided to go ahead and join them on Tuesday. After thinking about it some, it does give me an opportunity to try and show them I am different than used to be. I can be positive and confident in front of all of them Tuesday night. It will be a little uncomfortable at first, but I can do it.


Exactly, they need to see a Kevin that's fun to hang out with before you get invited to more stuff.

Quote:
W thought she had found our wedding candle that we lit every year on our anniversary. She said I could have it if I wanted it. That hurt a bit thinking wow, our M really didn't mean anything to her at all. 12 years of nothing in her mind.


Did you take the candle? If not does that mean the M meant nothing to you?

Quote:
I didn't even know that we were getting each other anything for Christmas.


Why not just ask her? That's what I did last year with my now EX, saved a lot of wondering and stressing. Just ask with NO EXPECTATIONS if she says no just say ok just checking.

Quote:
She felt the need to tell me that her and the girls and her family all went and had pictures made together yesterday. I didn't say anything to that. She then proceeded to tell me it was no big deal. Ok, why bother telling me then?


It's called conversation, it's about your girls, why not just say something like I hope they come out nice...Be strong confidant wasn't there so I don't know but not saying anything could come across as rude(you don't want that) or self pity...

Quote:
Then she said she plans on taking the girls to a movie Christmas night. No invite to join. Ok, cool.


Who knows what will happen after spending the day together...
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 04:17 PM
Quote:
Remember that nothing is a crisis. It is one day at a time. One lego at a time.


That is what I keep having to tell myself. Thanks KJ.

smile

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 04:22 PM
Quote:
Did you take the candle? If not does that mean the M meant nothing to you?


I had told W earlier on when the A was going on and she wanted the D that yes, I did want the candle because it does mean something to me. I didn't collect it last night as the one she had found and thought was ours was not. But I will be asking for our candle.

Quote:
It's called conversation, it's about your girls, why not just say something like I hope they come out nice...Be strong confidant wasn't there so I don't know but not saying anything could come across as rude(you don't want that) or self pity...


I could have said that VD. I just didn't think about it. Again, crumbled on my feet. So I chose to say nothing.

Quote:
Why not just ask her? That's what I did last year with my now EX, saved a lot of wondering and stressing. Just ask with NO EXPECTATIONS if she says no just say ok just checking.


I guess I do need to ask her now. If she is thinking about getting me anything, I need to make sure I do the same. Geez, but what to get the woman who wants nothing to do with you? I saw a pretty cool picture frame yesterday I thought about. It wasn't expensive but nice looking. It was a decorative one, silver with multiple little frames that you could turn over like a farris wheel.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 04:37 PM
Quote:
Geez, but what to get the woman who wants nothing to do with you?


WHAT??? Right now she doesn't want you as a H, it doesn't mean she doesn't still have feeling for you...You are invited to a bday party that a month ago you wouldn't have, you are invited to Christmas at the inlaws, what more do you want now. Try looking at the positives and what you have and not just what you want...Remember: You can't always get what you want but sometimes you'll find you get what you need smile...

BTW the picture frame sounds like a good idea.
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 04:38 PM
Originally Posted By: volleydog
Quote:
Geez, but what to get the woman who wants nothing to do with you?


WHAT??? Right now she doesn't want you as a H, it doesn't mean she doesn't still have feeling for you...You are invited to a bday party that a month ago you wouldn't have, you are invited to Christmas at the inlaws, what more do you want now. Try looking at the positives and what you have and not just what you want...Remember: You can't always get what you want but sometimes you'll find you get what you need smile...

BTW the picture frame sounds like a good idea.

I second that!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 04:49 PM
Quote:
WHAT??? Right now she doesn't want you as a H, it doesn't mean she doesn't still have feeling for you...You are invited to a bday party that a month ago you wouldn't have, you are invited to Christmas at the inlaws, what more do you want now. Try looking at the positives and what you have and not just what you want...Remember: You can't always get what you want but sometimes you'll find you get what you need ...


True. Just a few weeks ago they would have asked for the girls and not invited me with them. They would have simply asked if they could trade days with me. Now at least I am being invited with them. That is a good point VD.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 04:50 PM
I wore a blazer to work today. Everyone thought I had an interview. I don't. I just left my jacket at the church and it is a tad chilly. But I am actually looking for another job.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 05:36 PM
Funny how people can speculate based on what you wear. I am a jeans casual kind of person. But if I dress up at all people wonder what the heck is going on.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 06:22 PM
I am thinking about trading in my PS3 for the new WII since money is a bit tight this year and I want my girls to have a good Christmas. They would love the WII. I did get them some board games and things that they could do as well. It is just not going to be a big Christmas for them. I consider my droid phone to be my own Christmas present to myself.

The sooner Christmas and New Years Eve gets over, the better. W reaffirmed she has plans for New Years Eve and has a baby sitter lined up. I have one of 2 options possibly. If one set of my friends throws a party, I will take my girls there. If not, I may figure something else to do with them. I have also been invited to another New Years Eve party that I could not take them to. But I am wanting them to enjoy New Years as well.

I think I just grow so tired of this continued trek by W right out of our lives and into someone elses. Even though she is nicer now, moving on is still at the front of her mind.

I am probably being petty and having a bit of trouble because of the holidays. It is just such crap in my opinion.

I just seem to recall vows being made and W saying D will never be part of our family. Empty words I guess.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 06:28 PM
I think I am just hurting a bit between last night and this morning with the holidays. Hoping for the best, but expecting no change in things.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/14/09 11:42 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
From Wikipedia...

Saintpaulia, commonly known as African violet, is a genus of 6 species of herbaceous perennial flowering plants in the family Gesneriaceae, native to Tanzania and adjacent southeastern Kenya in eastern tropical Africa, with a concentration of species in the Nguru mountains of Tanzania. The genus is most closely related to Streptocarpus, with recent phylogenetic studies suggesting it has evolved directly from subgenus Streptocarpella. The common name was given due to a superficial resemblance to true violets (Viola, family Violaceae).


NOT EVEN CLOSE!

lets try an easier one.

what do you know about the population dynamics of foxes and rabbits?
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 12:37 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D

I just seem to recall vows being made and W saying D will never be part of our family. Empty words I guess.


I heard the same thing Kevin! "This will never end...I promise." It did end! Things change and people change. I've had to man up and confess that I didn't honor our marriage vows either because I promised to love, honor, and cherish her...and I didn't!
Posted By: antlers Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 12:47 AM

"Do you want to be married to someone who doesn't value you or the relationship they have with you? What kind of marriage is that?

Until you project that kind of self-esteem, self-respect, self-value, no one will ever be able to value you and hold on to you, you just give the impression that you're not worth the effort.

Time to wake up." - robx
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 04:24 AM
Quote:
I heard the same thing Kevin! "This will never end...I promise." It did end! Things change and people change. I've had to man up and confess that I didn't honor our marriage vows either because I promised to love, honor, and cherish her...and I didn't!


Antlers,

Thank you for responding. I hear what you are saying. But regardless of how much or how little we cherished our S, we woke up and it never justifies the actions being taken with regard to D and OM/OW.

Not that it matters any because we have no control over the situation. But we are still entitled to our feelings about the situation.

I know your road has been just as hard and you really divorce busted your rear off.

Kevin
Posted By: FaithfulH Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 12:00 PM
Quote:
I think I just grow so tired of this continued trek by W right out of our lives and into someone elses. Even though she is nicer now, moving on is still at the front of her mind.

Kevin,

This is the reason I told you the other day "you are letting Satan have a field day with your thoughts". You have to stop believing you know what is "at the front of her mind". Relish the blessings that come your way:

1) Christmas with your MIL and W and girls
2) The party at your SILs

....and ignore that you aren't getting EVERYTHING you want. What if God is checking to see if you're grateful when He answers your prayers? You don't seem to be! Should He grant more? Man up, Dude!

Quote:
I am probably being petty and having a bit of trouble because of the holidays. It is just such crap in my opinion.

Glad you recognize that you're being petty.....now do something about it instead of bitchin'.

Quote:
I just seem to recall vows being made and W saying D will never be part of our family. Empty words I guess.
Oh, and you've never done anything to violate your vows to "love, honor, and cherish"....just read your posts from the last few hours.

Kev....you are in a great place with your W....are you going to move FORWARD?....or BACKWARD?
Posted By: Goodfight Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 02:12 PM
I agree with Faithful! You are really going forward not backward. If you and faithful get a chance can you hop on over to my thread. Kevin, I wish I was as lucky as you are spending the holidays with MIL and W and girls. You said to me that your MIL was like mine well, I don't think so, mine doesn't even call the children or me otherwise invite or be around us on the holidays.
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 02:21 PM
You are moving forward Kevin. Its hard to see, but you are. The holidays suck for all of us. A time when familys should be together. Don't punish yourself for having feelings.

Nobody knows what your W is feeling or thinking. Nor my crazy exh. Enjoy the invitations you have and make the most of Xmas for you and your girls.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 03:05 PM
I'm going to make the most of it. I think I have just been feeling so uncomfortable heading into both situations that I have let it affect me to a negative point.

I can't allow the fear of being uncomfortable around them ruin any possible chances to reflect myself well in their eyes.

Like FaithfulH said, I have to man up if I want any chance of this working for these next 2 events.

I will.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 03:06 PM
Quote:
Kev....you are in a great place with your W....are you going to move FORWARD?....or BACKWARD?


I am going to move forward and force myself past these uncomfortable feelings I am having.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 03:45 PM
Quote:
what do you know about the population dynamics of foxes and rabbits?


They multiply fast. Not sure where you are going with this.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 05:07 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
what do you know about the population dynamics of foxes and rabbits?


They multiply fast. Not sure where you are going with this.

Kevin

I am a bit lost too...but curious to find out! smile
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 07:27 PM
Well,

I geared myself up for dinner with the family tonight and D12's choir performace is at 6:30. The dinner is at 7. So SIL sent me a text saying she found out from W what time the choir performance is and told me not to worry about coming to dinner tonight. They will just have their dinner without me. I said ok.

So I guess it is just the choir performance tonight and then go home and figure out something to work on to pass the time by.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 08:39 PM
So are they saying the dinner is off altogether because of the time situation or are they having dinner after the performance? Either way, you did fine.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 09:21 PM
SO2,

I don't know if I am being played on this or not. Here is what has happened between yesterday and today.

Yesterday afternoon I IM'd W that the cell bill is due and how did she want to work it out for payment for it. Each month either we split it or I pay for it and she pays for something else. So I was asking how she wanted to handle it this month. She didn't respond. Then I sent her a text later asking again because it was a day overdue. Still no response. I finally called her later on last night and she got on the phone and started griping at me for calling her before I could even say anything. I was also calling to ask what time D12's choir performance was. She griped about the kids and setting up her tree and the kids being difficult.

She told me to pay my half and she will take care of the other half. W is not very good about taking care of bills timely and with this being a day late, I went ahead and paid half of it from my account and half from hers. I wasn't going to wait to see if she would remember. I sent her a text saying what I did and that it was paid. I didn't hear back. I have access to her account for things like this that we have done in the past with her permission. So I did it again but not really with her permission this time. I just did it. I then sent her a text letting her know our car insurance bill is due thursday and how much it is so she is aware since we split that one to. Still didn't hear back.

I sent her a text this morning again asking if she found out when D12's choir rehearsal is tonight since D12 didn't know and W was going to find out. She sent me and everyone else a text saying when it was and they would make the dinner after. I texted her back saying thank you. No response.

A little bit ago, I get a text from SIL, W's sister saying she just found out what time the choir performance is and she is not going to delay dinner so I don't need to worry about coming. She said dinner will be at 7. I said I thought it was at 7:30. She said it was but she changed it to 7 saying we wouldn't even get there til 8 tonight and she wasn't going to wait. I said ok and sorry about that. She said ok and thanks.

I had geared myself up for this dinner and prayed to God to please let it be a good one and a building block.

Last night I put up our Christmas tree so that me and the girls could decorate it on Thursday and I paid bills, made dinner, did laundry and wrapped niece's birthday present in anticipation for tonight. I think I will just give it to her as a Christmas present.

What I am wondering is why the avoidance and then attitude by W all of a sudden again simply because I am trying to get our cell phone bill paid. Maybe she is ticked off because I don't contribute to her health insurance plan that she picked for the family through her agency. The plan is $800 and a high deductible. I told her originally it was a dumb plan to go with and it would be better to put the money in the bank or search out a better plan. She went with it anyways. Given the difference in our pay with her making almost twice as much as I do, I don't contribute to those premiums for a plan I don't use anyways and advised against. And that aside, I think that knowing the differences in pay and that we are married and technically and legally, our money is both of ours, I don't feel overly bad about it. I mean if I were to get half of what we brought in and she got half, then I would be helping pay for her plan. But she won't do that. So I don't help pay for the plan. I do however pay for half of all medical costs for the kids of what the insurance doesn't pay as well as the cell phone bill and the car insurance bill and half of all other expenses for the kids. The other thing is that we each have a toll tag that comes out of her bank account. I don't reimburse her for that either. Basically I look at it as since we are married and she is still keeping all her money from a job I passed on to her, that is kind of my way of making it happen until she divorces me. If she chooses to divorce me, then obviously things change from a finance perspective. But until then, I consider the present situation status quo and legal.

Maybe I am wrong in this approach, but it seems to me since we are married, that is legally fair until she files and finishes a divorce assuming she goes that route.

As soon as I typed this, I got a text from W asking me if I got the text from SIL regarding not coming to dinner. I replied and said yes. I sent back a text saying I will go ahead and get the girls and take them to choir and then take them home with me. No response.

So then I called her to see if it costs anything to get in to the choir perforamce. She said no. So I just reiterated that I will get the girls before and take them home after since the birthday dinner is no longer feasible and she can have them back Thursday night since my night was originally tonight and only switching for the birthday dinner. She sounded put off with this and said she didn't realize we had swapped plans and she said we will just talk tonight at the choir performance. I asked if there was something wrong. She said no no, we'll talk tonight.

She just texted me back saying D7 needs a shower tonight. I guess she is going to give in to letting me have them back on my original night with them since the birthday dinner seems to have fallen through.

For a minute there I was wondering if I would have to set a boundary tonight with her and wondering what kind of fit she might throw.

Maybe the boundary has already been set and she realizes it.

I don't know.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 09:31 PM
Just an added note, W doesn't contribute to the C fees for the kids. I pick that up, so maybe the insurance isn't the issue since that almost helps offset are differences closer. Not real sure. Who knows.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 09:37 PM
Seems like there are alot of little things like bills that should be cleared up. Yeah, you are married legally but haven't been together in awhile. I would call your cel company and put your phone on your own plan. Let W take care of hers. Same with the car insurance and any other bills that are joint. I would simply call her and say it would be much easier in the future if bills were separate. No attitude. Just upbeat and happy. Actually do it over an email. That way you have a record of what you did and she can't complain over the phone. If this is the road W wants to go down, let her figure out some things on her own.

Good on the conversation about tonight. Plans fell through. No need to switch anymore.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 10:01 PM
Ya, I'm sure one of 2 things is going on. Either 1) She and they are all still planning on getting together after the performance so she is put off by the fact that now she won't have the girls to bring or 2) She made plans for Thursday night and is now annoyed that she will have to cancel them to spend time with her girls because the birthday plans fell through on my night. I am not sure which, but I think one of those 2 is probably the case.

I would not doubt that I am going to get the same line I always get from her anytime the schedule gets tweaked. I always get "I had plans" every single time. My inside wants to say I don't care about your plans. I could honestly care less. You never care about mine. And you ALWAYS have plans. There is NEVER a moment when you don't have plans. It never fails that I always get that line from her.

But I never say that to her, I just keep quiet and try and work things out with her. I fume sometimes under my breath, but I hold back as I have learned that lesson very well. I try to show understanding to her feelings for her. But I am also trying to set some boundaries and I think this is one of them. I think if I just let her have her way all the time, that is not necessarily the best thing for me or the girls.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 10:18 PM
Here is what I would do in the future. If the switching has nothing to do with the girls and its purely for W then don't do it. If she has plans Thursday say "great W! Go ahead with your plans, I will take the girls that night too." Let her give up a few nights without losing yours.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 10:21 PM
Quote:
If she has plans Thursday say "great W! Go ahead with your plans, I will take the girls that night too." Let her give up a few nights without losing yours.


That is a good idea SO2. I will suggest that tonight if it gets brought up.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 10:24 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
If she has plans Thursday say "great W! Go ahead with your plans, I will take the girls that night too." Let her give up a few nights without losing yours.


That is a good idea SO2. I will suggest that tonight if it gets brought up.

Kevin

Good! Don't say it with an attitude either. Say it like a freaking Dallas Cowboy Cheerleader. Like its the best thing in the world and hopes she has a fun time. I would always jump at the chance to have your girls more.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 10:27 PM
I will, and believe me, I do always jump at the chance to have my girls more. I love having them.

Kevin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/15/09 11:02 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
what do you know about the population dynamics of foxes and rabbits?


They multiply fast. Not sure where you are going with this.

Kevin


no hints.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 06:52 AM
Quote:
no hints.


Ok, this is apparently beyond me unless you are telling me to move on like they do and populate with someone else like animals do which is not really what I signed up for.

Kevin
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 12:41 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
no hints.


Ok, this is apparently beyond me unless you are telling me to move on like they do and populate with someone else like animals do which is not really what I signed up for.

Kevin


No, that isn't what he is talking about. He's talking about the predator/prey relationship and the interation of two codependent populations. For example, the rabbit death rate is affected by the foxes population. The foxes birth rate is affected by the amount of rabbits available. Basically, more foxes equal less rabbits, etc. Get it?

I'm not sure SQ is trying to give you a biology lesson. I think he might be trying to get you to see the behavior pattern, and apply it to yourself.

Does this help you see what he is wanting you to see?

Sorry, SQ. He wasn't getting you, and it didn't seem like he was going to. Why make it worse for him?
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 12:52 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
no hints.


Ok, this is apparently beyond me unless you are telling me to move on like they do and populate with someone else like animals do which is not really what I signed up for.

Kevin


not at all. but it is related to what you did sign up for.

african violets, rabbits and foxes. anybody?

this thread does and will continue to receive alot of activity; if we are going to continue to think and write, we might as discuss what works. get back to the basics.
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 02:05 PM
Nope. Still clueless.
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 02:13 PM
People, I just told you about the fox and rabbit. Do you know anything about the propagation of African violets?
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 02:18 PM
I sorta get the fox/rabbits scenario, but not sure on the african violets.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 02:21 PM
African Violets: The less you handle them, the more they flourish and grow. If you fuss over them they will live but not thrive.

IOW, stop fussing over your W, stop mind reading, speculating and trying to figure out why she does what and do what you need to do for you. When you smother an AV they tend to die quickly as they don't need as much attention as the general non-African Violet loving population tends to think.
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 02:21 PM
Off topic. But since this is such an active thread...is anyone else having issues getting on to FB this morning? I log on ok, then its a blank screen.
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 02:48 PM
I also have the blank FB screen.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 02:48 PM
No issues with FB.

SG, thanks for clearing that up. I really wasn't getting it.

CG, not smothering W. I probably ought to chill out on the mind reading though.

So last night went well for the most part. I picked up D7 and met W at the house since D12 wanted W to curl her hair. I got us dinner and waited and then took D7 and D12 to the choir performance that D12 was singing in at school since we had to be there a half hour early. W asked me to save her a seat so I did. W got there right as it started and we had D7 sitting between us. I noticed W looked at me a couple of times. When it was over we parted ways at the cars.

Later on in the evening D7 called W to ask W if she was going to pay for a book she ordered that was due today and how. Then D12 also wanted to talk to W for a minute so she did. Then I had to get on the phone with W to get the details so I could fill out the form for W and D7. W was frusturated and told me they had called her earlier. I said I was not aware of that. Then W said if the girls are not with her, she doesn't need to be bothered.

Ok. Are you a mom or not? Do your kids that you brought in the world no longer exist to you unless they are with you now? That comment kind of pissed me off. I don't usually bother her and try to keep the kids from doing so, but dang, what kind of comment is that?

So I got off the phone with her and a short while later she sent me a text saying sorry, and that she has a headache and is trying to rest and feel better at home. Of course her IM on her phone status that she typed in said that she was mobile which she places on it when she is not home or at work. So I am not sure that I bought the story of her being home alone. Not that it matters.

But I couldn't believe that comment.

SM, I enjoy the challenge of thinking you provide. I guess I just wasn't getting that one.

Tonight D12 has a karate competition at school for her gold belt. I think W's mom is going to be there. W will have to get there early with D12 tonight. Should I ask her to save me a seat or say nothing and just show up and sit where ever? I'd like to be able to sit with D7 and W like last night. But I am not sure that W will want to save me a seat if her mom is planning on being there.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 02:57 PM
You spend so much time thinking about what you should or should not do when you have an exchange with your W. You do understand you cannot control what sort of person she is, how she parents or any other aspect of her, right?

IMO smothering can have multiple definitions and you do smother her. Wasn't it just a few days ago that you sent her multiple texts (RE: bill payment) and when she didn't respond you called her?

I get that bills needed to be paid but clearly the system you currently have with your W to pay the bills is requiring too much contact. So, figure out a new situation or separate your finances 100% so you won't have to chase after her to pay bills.

All this speculating about why her phone said her IM came from her phone and it showed up as "mobile". Who cares? Why waste your time wondering when there is no way to know? Why worry so much about who is sitting where at an event for your child? If you have a seat and you are there to support your kid that is all you need to concern yourself with.
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:05 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
SG, thanks for clearing that up. I really wasn't getting it.

CG, not smothering W. I probably ought to chill out on the mind reading though.



You're welcome.

Now, I am saying this in the nicest way possible. Yes, you do smother her. You spend waaaay too much time obsessing over every detail about her and her life. It doesn't matter what she does or why. You really need to put her totally out of your mind. It doesn't matter where you sit. None of what you worry about daily matters. What matters is that she has moved on, and you need to stop caring what she does.

You may say that you are just venting here, but I have a feeling you're putting out a needy vibe to her, even if you don't intend to.
Posted By: WeldingGuy Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Sad Girl
I also have the blank FB screen.


Once you have the blank screen, click on "Profile" at the top - it will open your profile. Then click on "Home" and your normal feed will be visible.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:16 PM
Quote:
You spend so much time thinking about what you should or should not do when you have an exchange with your W. You do understand you cannot control what sort of person she is, how she parents or any other aspect of her, right?


Yes, I understand this and I don't try to control who she is or what kind of parent she is. That comment just bothered me last night. I should have just handled it for D7. But I was letting her and her mom work it out and then I will filling out the form based on what W said. I should have just filled it out and gave D7 the check and if W chose to reimburse she does, if not she doesn't.

Quote:
Wasn't it just a few days ago that you sent her multiple texts (RE: bill payment) and when she didn't respond you called her?


Yes. I was trying to get our bills paid. I have been holding off on splitting everything up for us I guess in hopes of things turning back around at some point. Plus I haven't wanted to push us closer to D and felt that if I split everything that is left that it might push us closer to D.

Quote:
All this speculating about why her phone said her IM came from her phone and it showed up as "mobile". Who cares? Why waste your time wondering when there is no way to know? Why worry so much about who is sitting where at an event for your child? If you have a seat and you are there to support your kid that is all you need to concern yourself with.


It wasn't that so much as she was telling me she was at home and her phone said otherwise. It shouldn't have been a thought for me. I guess it just was because the 2 didn't match. Funny enough, D7 asked W where she was to because it didn't sound to her like W was at home either. That was without me saying anything. But again, it didn't matter and I shouldn't have put any thought into it. It should have been "who cares".

Kevin
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:21 PM
Quote:
Later on in the evening D7 called W to ask W if she was going to pay for a book she ordered that was due today and how. Then D12 also wanted to talk to W for a minute so she did. Then I had to get on the phone with W to get the details so I could fill out the form for W and D7. W was frusturated and told me they had called her earlier. I said I was not aware of that. Then W said if the girls are not with her, she doesn't need to be bothered.


K, do you not see how needy this makes you look? Do you wonder why your W is frustrated? She feels she is dealing with 3 kids here, you included! She is even telling you this!

When the kids are with you, you deal with this type of stuff, that's your job. You are not with your W right now, so don't call her about this mundane cr*p! You could show your the leader here, pay for the book, have the form filled out, and processed, if you have questions about it, call the people that are involved with the form, not your W.

You should tackle this stuff on your own, you have 0 chance of your W ever getting respect back for you while you do things like this. But you also need to realize that you do these things for you and your kids, not to show you W some changes! If she notices, well that's good, but count on her not noticing, and just do them because you need to!
Posted By: P17 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:24 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
[quote]
Yes. I was trying to get our bills paid. I have been holding off on splitting everything up for us I guess in hopes of things turning back around at some point. Plus I haven't wanted to push us closer to D and felt that if I split everything that is left that it might push us closer to D.


K, if splitting your bills pushes your W closer to D then she is going to do it anyway.

Get the bills halved. Get her to pay HER bills from HER account and you pay YOURS. I know what you are doing. I tried to do it but W was smarter than me. You are trying to use the bills as a medium to hold onto W and to give you a reason to communicate with her. Admit it and don't be ashamed of it.

However, you need to stop it.

[quote]It should have been "who cares".

It should have been but you are not at that stage yet. You need to get there.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:25 PM
Quote:
Now, I am saying this in the nicest way possible. Yes, you do smother her. You spend waaaay too much time obsessing over every detail about her and her life. It doesn't matter what she does or why. You really need to put her totally out of your mind. It doesn't matter where you sit. None of what you worry about daily matters. What matters is that she has moved on, and you need to stop caring what she does.

You may say that you are just venting here, but I have a feeling you're putting out a needy vibe to her, even if you don't intend to.


I do spend more time than I should thinking about her and what she is doing than I should. I really try to prevent myself from showing any vibes of neediness when around her. Maybe it does come off as that though even though I try not to.

I will tell you something else to. Last night when we were at the house, she was talking to me about this and that. I just felt myself getting angry inside and wishing she would just quit talking. I covered it up well and was cheerful in front of her. But my insides felt otherwise.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:29 PM
Quote:
K, do you not see how needy this makes you look? Do you wonder why your W is frustrated? She feels she is dealing with 3 kids here, you included! She is even telling you this!

When the kids are with you, you deal with this type of stuff, that's your job. You are not with your W right now, so don't call her about this mundane cr*p! You could show your the leader here, pay for the book, have the form filled out, and processed, if you have questions about it, call the people that are involved with the form, not your W.

You should tackle this stuff on your own, you have 0 chance of your W ever getting respect back for you while you do things like this. But you also need to realize that you do these things for you and your kids, not to show you W some changes! If she notices, well that's good, but count on her not noticing, and just do them because you need to!


Yes. I agree that I should have handled it myself. It didn't come off looking very good that I didn't. My thought was if she had told D7 she was going to do it and it was due today, then she needed to take care of it with D7. But in reality, I should have just taken care of it and moved on.

Kevin
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:30 PM
How is taking control or YOUR finances and protecting your credit (not having bills paid late) moving closer to a D? It's ironic that you feel separating finances would be the final straw yet the fact that you haven't lived together in some time AND she is with other men don't seem final to you.

It's a control issue with you. As long as you and your W still have something joint then you have a shred of something shared with her.

And you are correct, you should have never called her about the book for your daughter/how to fill out the form and payment. How hard could the form be to fill out? A while back my H e-mailed me asking me where he should go to get the car inspected, lol. Men that can't figure out simple tasks *are* annoying.

This is why many of us feel you come across as needy. If you wanted your W and daughter to work out the book issue why did you get on the phone with her at all?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:32 PM
Quote:
Get the bills halved. Get her to pay HER bills from HER account and you pay YOURS. I know what you are doing. I tried to do it but W was smarter than me. You are trying to use the bills as a medium to hold onto W and to give you a reason to communicate with her. Admit it and don't be ashamed of it.

However, you need to stop it.


I am not using the bills as a way to communicate with her. It is actually frusturating knowing each month we are going to have to discuss them. I just also don't want to push closer to the end of things in my own mind.

Kevin
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:33 PM
Originally Posted By: P17
K, if splitting your bills pushes your W closer to D then she is going to do it anyway.



Yep. You really need to split the bills. My H and I have already done that, and we aren't even 2 months into it.
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:35 PM
Your goal for today:
Call cel company and move to your own plan. Give them W's new address for hers.
Call insurance and do the same thing.
Ditto on anything else you can.

You can do it!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:36 PM
Quote:
How is taking control or YOUR finances and protecting your credit (not having bills paid late) moving closer to a D? It's ironic that you feel separating finances would be the final straw yet the fact that you haven't lived together in some time AND she is with other men don't seem final to you.


No, I don't consider it final just because she is with other men. It is current circumstances. Circumstances can change with time.

Quote:
It's a control issue with you. As long as you and your W still have something joint then you have a shred of something shared with her.


I haven't looked at it as a control issue. More of a hope issue. But maybe it is a control issue that I am not making myself aware of.

Quote:
And you are correct, you should have never called her about the book for your daughter/how to fill out the form and payment. How hard could the form be to fill out? A while back my H e-mailed me asking me where he should go to get the car inspected, lol. Men that can't figure out simple tasks *are* annoying.


I can fill out the form. I was needing to know how she wanted to pay for it and how many she wanted and exactly what she wanted.

Quote:
This is why many of us feel you come across as needy. If you wanted your W and daughter to work out the book issue why did you get on the phone with her at all?


D7 can't fill out the form. She didn't quite know what she was doing.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:40 PM
Quote:
Yep. You really need to split the bills. My H and I have already done that, and we aren't even 2 months into it.


*shrug*

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:41 PM
Quote:
Your goal for today:
Call cel company and move to your own plan. Give them W's new address for hers.
Call insurance and do the same thing.
Ditto on anything else you can.

You can do it!


I am not sure if we can split the family plan into 2 separate accounts since we have a contract with it. I don't know that they will do that until there is a D decree.

I think the insurance can be done.

Kevin
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:42 PM
Originally Posted By: K4
DNo, I don't consider it final just because she is with other men. It is current circumstances. Circumstances can change with time.



Notice, you said men, not man. She has clearly moved on. I can see forgiving one affair, but when you're talking about multiple relationships, you really need to start asking yourself why you don't think you deserve better.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:43 PM
Logic would say that if something is frustrating you on a monthly basis (RE: having to communicate about bills) then separating finances would be best. Why keep a continued source of frustration in your life when there is a simple fix?

W: I have decided to maintain my own finances starting Jan 1, 2010. Attached please find a spreadsheet of the necessary information you and I both need to split the finances/bills for individual payment as well as estimated projections of child related expenses. I have removed your name from the family cell plan and auto insurance as of (insert date here).

Think about what you are projecting... on one hand you say the bills are a source of monthly frustration yet on the other hand you say you don't mind being frustrated because to you, it keeps you attached to your W in some way.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:48 PM
Say you and your W were happily married. If your W was at the market and your daughter needed help filling out a form would you wait for your W to get home to do it or would you just take care of it? I would hope you would just get it done. Why would things be any different now?

If you want things to change you must be the "agent of change" and IMO you still let your W take the lead far too often.

What's the point of a conversational message board if you respond with *shrug*?

At least be honest with yourself. You don't want to split the bills because it is one of the last things you and your W share and you are fearful to move forward.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:49 PM
Quote:
Notice, you said men, not man. She has clearly moved on. I can see forgiving one affair, but when you're talking about multiple relationships, you really need to start asking yourself why you don't think you deserve better.


I do deserve better. But is that really my choice to make? I'm not sure that it is. According to the church, it is not right now.

So should I not ask her if we are exchanging gifts for Christmas based off her comment of I can have that temperate checker as my Christmas gift?

I won't ask her to save me a seat tonight. I will just show up and support D12 and sit where ever is available.

W offered to sew 2 buttons on my 2 of my shirts since I have never done that before, so I will just go have it done myself and not have her do it.

I had debated about asking her if she wanted to do a Christmas eve dinner with me and the girls. I guess I won't.

I did ask her what time D12's karate event was tonight. She said call the school, so I will do that and not contact W.

I think I will do a little bit of apartment hunting today since W has asked me 3 times if I have made a decision to stay in the current one or get another one. I got a letter from my complex saying they would like me to stay and will keep my rate the same. But I don't know if I want to stay in the one I am in. Either way, it should not be W's concern as it doesn't affect the kids school in any way.

Kevin
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:51 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
Yep. You really need to split the bills. My H and I have already done that, and we aren't even 2 months into it.


*shrug*

Kevin


Shrug?! Nice. Sometimes I wonder if you are purposefully obtuse. You are not ever going to get your wife back until you stop WANTING your wife back. She is a want, not a need. The more you need her, the less likely you will have her.

You may not want to date, but you do need to start acting like a divorced father of 2. Live your own life. Let her live hers without interference from you. You know you have no chance to get her back until you mentally get to the point where YOU no longer want HER, so what's stopping you?

You have to, Kevin. It's your only hope.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:54 PM
Quote:
Logic would say that if something is frustrating you on a monthly basis (RE: having to communicate about bills) then separating finances would be best. Why keep a continued source of frustration in your life when there is a simple fix?

W: I have decided to maintain my own finances starting Jan 1, 2010. Attached please find a spreadsheet of the necessary information you and I both need to split the finances/bills for individual payment as well as estimated projections of child related expenses. I have removed your name from the family cell plan and auto insurance as of (insert date here).

Think about what you are projecting... on one hand you say the bills are a source of monthly frustration yet on the other hand you say you don't mind being frustrated because to you, it keeps you attached to your W in some way.


I get this. I guess it is some bit of fear in me that it just further leads to a point I don't want it to or it further assists in getting there if I move forward with splitting everything.

Quote:
Say you and your W were happily married. If your W was at the market and your daughter needed help filling out a form would you wait for your W to get home to do it or would you just take care of it? I would hope you would just get it done. Why would things be any different now?


I agree. I should have just handled it. Stupid reaction on my part.

Quote:
If you want things to change you must be the "agent of change" and IMO you still let your W take the lead far too often.


Ya, I guess I do. I have to stop that.

Quote:
What's the point of a conversational message board if you respond with *shrug*?


Was just not something I look forward to doing. Was shrugging at the thought of it.

Quote:
At least be honest with yourself. You don't want to split the bills because it is one of the last things you and your W share and you are fearful to move forward.


This is true. I can't deny it.

Kevin
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:58 PM
Kevin, how would you feel if she said she wanted things split up. She easily could, but she doesn't. She has it pretty good knowing if she doesn't pay a bill, you will.

Spliting it up is for your protection. It makes good financial sense.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 03:58 PM
Quote:
Shrug?! Nice. Sometimes I wonder if you are purposefully obtuse.


I was shrugging at the thought of what you had said SG. Just not something I really want to do.

Quote:
You are not ever going to get your wife back until you stop WANTING your wife back. She is a want, not a need. The more you need her, the less likely you will have her.


I know. I have to stop feeling like I need her. I don't know if I will ever get to the point where I don't want her back though.

Quote:
You may not want to date, but you do need to start acting like a divorced father of 2. Live your own life. Let her live hers without interference from you. You know you have no chance to get her back until you mentally get to the point where YOU no longer want HER, so what's stopping you?


Fear sometimes.

Quote:
You have to, Kevin. It's your only hope.


You're right. I have to tackle my fear of letting go completely.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 04:01 PM
Quote:
Kevin, how would you feel if she said she wanted things split up. She easily could, but she doesn't. She has it pretty good knowing if she doesn't pay a bill, you will.


She does have that safety net with me. And that bugs me being as how she makes so much more than I do and yet I am the safety net.

Quote:
Spliting it up is for your protection. It makes good financial sense.


It does. I agree. Again though, it is just me not wanting to finalize what little is left in some hope that maybe things can turn around.

Kevin
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 04:03 PM

Quote:
At least be honest with yourself. You don't want to split the bills because it is one of the last things you and your W share and you are fearful to move forward.


This is true. I can't deny it.


Yep was just going to post this...I'm pretty sure you're a lot like I was, trying to figure out any way you can to have contact with W, since you think that's the ONLY way you can work things out...It doesn't work and it's obvious, trust me.

I think you're missing a HUGH issue here...There is nothing wrong with asking W to Christmas Eve dinner as long as you're ok with her saying no, that's what detachment is about...If it's going to hurt you for her to say no (I think it will) then don't ask, if not ask.
Posted By: volleydog Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 04:05 PM
Wow just realized you have 2300 (and one now) posts on THIS thread in five months...That's an average of 15 a day, got to be a record by a mile.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 04:11 PM
Again, something else that you resent about your W yet you do nothing to change it on your end. You are her safety net when she needs help covering her bills, when she needs to switch days for your children or when she needs some other errand/favor done. There is a difference between being a safety net and being used.

I am not sure why but I am amazed that you feel splitting the finances would be the last straw. Do you really think that having joint or individual finances would be the vehicle that turns things around? I don't think so.

My H e-mailed me out of the blue on Monday to tell me (three weeks later) that I hurt his feelings on T-day because I never responded to his text wishing me a good holiday. And he said "I must admit I miss talking to you on the phone and over e-mail but I guess I better get used to you treating me this way". LOL!

NOTHING has changed with him. As per usual he holds in what is bothering him until he can't take it anymore instead of addressing what is wrong when it happens. Less than 30 days ago he was telling me how he would never turn his back on me, he would do whatever he had to do to earn a spot in my life and he would work harder than he ever worked to be a part of my life and earn my trust and respect back. I never heard from him again and when I did (the e-mail about T-day) it was the same old, same old.

The same BS with him just a different month. I can imagine your W feels much the same way.

My response: Sorry to hear your feelings were hurt on T-day.

I am tired of the same discussions and crap with him and all his empty promises and his fear. All I can do is remove myself from it. Maybe your W feels the same way.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 04:22 PM
Quote:
There is nothing wrong with asking W to Christmas Eve dinner as long as you're ok with her saying no, that's what detachment is about...If it's going to hurt you for her to say no (I think it will) then don't ask, if not ask.


She probably will say no and it probably will hurt. Maybe I am better off not asking and just doing a good Christmas eve dinner with my girls. I know they will want us all to do it together and I would to.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 04:25 PM
Quote:
Again, something else that you resent about your W yet you do nothing to change it on your end. You are her safety net when she needs help covering her bills, when she needs to switch days for your children or when she needs some other errand/favor done. There is a difference between being a safety net and being used.


It does feel like I am being used sometimes. But I also feel like it is my responsibility to be there for her if she needs help with something. I also feel like by turning my back on her that she will just further look the other way for help from someone else such as OM.

Quote:
I am not sure why but I am amazed that you feel splitting the finances would be the last straw. Do you really think that having joint or individual finances would be the vehicle that turns things around? I don't think so.

My H e-mailed me out of the blue on Monday to tell me (three weeks later) that I hurt his feelings on T-day because I never responded to his text wishing me a good holiday. And he said "I must admit I miss talking to you on the phone and over e-mail but I guess I better get used to you treating me this way". LOL!

NOTHING has changed with him. As per usual he holds in what is bothering him until he can't take it anymore instead of addressing what is wrong when it happens. Less than 30 days ago he was telling me how he would never turn his back on me, he would do whatever he had to do to earn a spot in my life and he would work harder than he ever worked to be a part of my life and earn my trust and respect back. I never heard from him again and when I did (the e-mail about T-day) it was the same old, same old.

The same BS with him just a different month. I can imagine your W feels much the same way.

My response: Sorry to hear your feelings were hurt on T-day.

I am tired of the same discussions and crap with him and all his empty promises and his fear. All I can do is remove myself from it. Maybe your W feels the same way.


Except that I don't make empty promises with W. I try to really see through anything I say to her. But I understand your point.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 04:29 PM
I did just call our cell phone provider and they said I could split the bill and we each have our own separate accounts. I would take one of the kids cell numbers and she would. The customer service rep also suggested this because she said that W is using far more minutes than I am and I can reduce the number of minuets on my plan individually.

If I take her off the auto insurance, my bill would also drop since I am paying half of our insurance bill which includes W's new vehicle in terms of full coverage where as my vehicle is fully paid for and only on liability.

It may be best to do that.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 04:30 PM
Quote:
Wow just realized you have 2300 (and one now) posts on THIS thread in five months...That's an average of 15 a day, got to be a record by a mile.


I hadn't looked at that. That is quite a bit.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 04:52 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I did just call our cell phone provider and they said I could split the bill and we each have our own separate accounts. I would take one of the kids cell numbers and she would. The customer service rep also suggested this because she said that W is using far more minutes than I am and I can reduce the number of minuets on my plan individually.

If I take her off the auto insurance, my bill would also drop since I am paying half of our insurance bill which includes W's new vehicle in terms of full coverage where as my vehicle is fully paid for and only on liability.

It may be best to do that.

Kevin


See?! A bonus already. Now do the email suggested above. Be ready for a not so nice response, but she is cake eating. Did you tell the cel and insurance companies that you wanted to do this by a certain date?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 04:57 PM
Quote:
See?! A bonus already. Now do the email suggested above. Be ready for a not so nice response, but she is cake eating. Did you tell the cel and insurance companies that you wanted to do this by a certain date?


I only called the cell company. I didn't call the insurance. I am fairly certain the insurance company will do it.

I didn't provide a date. I said I just wanted to know what options were available. I am thinking it over.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 05:02 PM
Me and the girls did decorate our tree last night and also set up Christmas decorations around the apartment. D7 was totally into it. D12 just went along with it. It was fun doing it with them.

Kevin
Posted By: P17 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 05:04 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
[quote]I am not using the bills as a way to communicate with her. It is actually frusturating knowing each month we are going to have to discuss them. I just also don't want to push closer to the end of things in my own mind.


K, you know your own mind better than we do. I have to say however I don't believe you. First rule in this is to admit to yourself what you are really doing.

I know. I've been there and I did it. That's why I know you are doing it to.

If you are not using it as a way to communicate with her, then split them.

As CityGirl said, she is already with other men and not living with you. How much further do you think splitting the bills will actually push her? She's already about as far away from you as she can be.

Split the bills. Do it today. Get it out of your head. Drop the rope and move forward with YOU.
Posted By: P17 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 05:11 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
I do deserve better. But is that really my choice to make? I'm not sure that it is. According to the church, it is not right now.


K, this is really not health. For goodness sake man, grow a pair will you? What do you mean it's not your choice to make? What are you a man or a mouse?

Whose choice is it? Your W's? That's the problem, it seems to be always HER choice.

Actually it's not HER choice. It's YOURS.

Rule number 1 - you are uin charge of YOU. Not HER. Not ANYBODY ELSE.

Rule number 2 - Nobody is in charge of YOU except YOU.

[quote]
So should I not ask her if we are exchanging gifts for Christmas based off her comment of I can have that temperate checker as my Christmas gift?


ARRGGHH!!

No xmas gift Kev. None. Nada. Nine.

Quote:

I won't ask her to save me a seat tonight. I will just show up and support D12 and sit where ever is available.


Good.

Quote:

W offered to sew 2 buttons on my 2 of my shirts since I have never done that before, so I will just go have it done myself and not have her do it.


Cool. You're learning.

Quote:

I had debated about asking her if she wanted to do a Christmas eve dinner with me and the girls. I guess I won't.


This is starting to sound like a sulk - 'guess I won't'. Don't ask her.

Quote:

I did ask her what time D12's karate event was tonight. She said call the school, so I will do that and not contact W.


Excellent. Another tip learned - when there is another source of information, use it and not W. DO NOT CALL W TO ASK ABOUT SILLY THINGS LIKE THIS.

Quote:
But I don't know if I want to stay in the one I am in. Either way, it should not be W's concern as it doesn't affect the kids school in any way.


So when W next asks if you are looking for another apartment, what do you tell her?
Posted By: P17 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 05:15 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I know. I have to stop feeling like I need her. I don't know if I will ever get to the point where I don't want her back though.


I promise you something, okay.

In 3 - 6 months time, when you come back here and read that paragraph above, you will cringe. Why? Because you will have moved so far down the road that you will have made a decision either way about your W. YOU WILL. Trust me on this.

This is not a decision that you should be making now. That is a decision you make when you feel strong enough to accept EITHER proposition.

I see this as a journey where you walk down the road and better yourself. Because, one day, your W will come back to you and say one of two things - I want to try again or I want to end it. The point of the journey we all need go down is so that when the W does come back to us, we are okay having either conversation.

Keep telling yourself, I will handle it. I know you can. You just need to believe you can too.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 05:18 PM
Quote:
So when W next asks if you are looking for another apartment, what do you tell her?


I tell her I will let her know when a decision has been made.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 05:19 PM
Quote:
Keep telling yourself, I will handle it. I know you can. You just need to believe you can too.


I will and I will handle it.

Kevin
Posted By: P17 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 05:23 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Quote:
So when W next asks if you are looking for another apartment, what do you tell her?


I tell her I will let her know when a decision has been made.

Kevin


Good ... but tell her than once no matter how many times she asks.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 05:26 PM
I called the school and asked them what time D12's karate thing is tonight. It is at 7. I will be there for her.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 05:28 PM
Quote:
Good ... but tell her than once no matter how many times she asks.


Got it.

What about combining with W on Christmas gifts for the kids. She had wanted to do that to save money. Do I or not? It would allow me to save money as well and get the kids a better gift.

Thoughts?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 05:33 PM
I am cashing out part of my 401k to pay off a credit card and to make up for not getting paid for work on Christmas day and new years day and to help make Christmas a bit better for my girls. I have another 401k plan though that I am not touching. This is the smaller one that I am pulling out.

Kevin
Posted By: P17 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 05:44 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
Got it.
What about combining with W on Christmas gifts for the kids. She had wanted to do that to save money. Do I or not? It would allow me to save money as well and get the kids a better gift.
Thoughts?


Mine are buy the gifts yourself. But prepare for the mood and nasty response when you do. Remember she wanted to separate, not you. The sooner she stops cake eating and puts on her 'big girl pants' (thanks Coach) the sooner she will realise what the separation and D will mean for her.

The sooner you do a 180 and act like you are separated, the quicker things will change.
Posted By: Drew Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 05:56 PM
K4D,

Listen to P17, he's giving you GREAT advice.

And don't take this the wrong way, but ...

Man up.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 06:35 PM
Do not buy W a holiday gift or even broach the subject with her.

You and your W should each be responsible as individuals for purchasing gifts for your children.

Using 401K money for holiday gifts - not a good idea.

I would not invite your W for Christmas Eve dinner.

One goal I would personally like to see you set and achieve is how to find and use resources in all aspects of your life on your own without asking your W first.

Also, think about this.. when you are trying to make a solid and sound decision (EX: removing your W from the cell account) you take your time and evaluate in a very methodical manner. That is good BUT you need to apply that same methodology all the time when dealing with your W. When you think you have to call her and ask her a question, stop, evaluate, use your resources and be 110% sure it is actually something you need her input on. As I see it there is very little you would really need her assistance or input on.

Do not leave anything opened ended with her. When you do something either state it as "I have decided" or if necessary give her two available options, both which work for you.
Posted By: ClingingToHope Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 06:41 PM
Quote:
What about combining with W on Christmas gifts for the kids. She had wanted to do that to save money. Do I or not? It would allow me to save money as well and get the kids a better gift.
Something W and I always did together was do Christmas shopping in one fell swoop. That way we wouldn't overspend.

I asked her way back in October how she wanted to handle it this year. She never responded. I took the girls to Target so they could tell what they'd like from "Santa."

W never asked what was on the list and last weekend she spent wrapping her gifts.

So obviously I'm on my own on this. Which is fine. I'm going shopping this weekend and doing the wrapping Sunday.

Just assume you are doing your own thing. Make her ask you.
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 07:42 PM
detach
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 07:49 PM
P17, Drew, CG, and ClingingToHope,

I will take all of this into consideration. I will work on using all of my own resources going forward and not asking W for anything.

The 401k is only about $800 which will be around $600 for early withdrawal penalty.

I have another one with a few thousand in it that I am thinking about putting towards getting my BA or PMP certification which I would hope would help further my career. I am thinking that one over.

So W will be over for Christmas morning as this was planned. I will have stocking stuffers for her like everyone else since she is planning on coming over that morning. Of course I did initiate the invite earlier on so that is my own doing and I am not going to back out of it now. But I won't extend an invite for Christmas eve dinner as I am not sure she would accept anyways.

I will really think on going ahead and finishing splitting the last 2 accounts that we are joint on.

Maybe the best thing I can do is completely separate everything, end all contact with W and move forward with her in the rearview mirror and see if in the future she comes back. I'm not sure this is the route that should take place, but I am thinking it over.

I think if I ended all contact, that would in affect kill any moments here and there of possible opportunities to shine in the coming future. I am not sure I should completely walk away, but maybe just not be W's crutch/safety net? Live independently and still keep moments that could shine and turn things around someday at some point? I don't really want to go the all or nothing route out of her life. Plus, how would that affect the kids? I am not sure that would be good on them either.

A lot to consider as Christmas draws closer.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 07:50 PM
Quote:
detach


Yes, I know.

Kevin
Posted By: Drew Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 08:08 PM
It's your life and you need to make your own decisions.

My counselor called it reality testing. You'd be surprised how powerful it is.

And you don't need to contact her for her to see you shine. You can see a lighthouse from a long way away can't you? Even if you're not looking ...............
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 08:11 PM
I think you will shine more if you stand up to her and show her what S/D in the real world is like. Right now she has the best of both worlds. As you know I just had to stand up to mine and it was tough, and he may get angry, but this is the road HE chose.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 08:19 PM
Quote:
And you don't need to contact her for her to see you shine. You can see a lighthouse from a long way away can't you? Even if you're not looking ...............


This is true Drew,

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 08:20 PM
IMO the problem is that you are trying to "show" her your actions. Just live your life and make your own decisions. Stand on your own two feet and don't rely on what I or others on here say.

You are the one that has to deal with the consequences not us. Write down what works (do more of them) and what doesn't (do less of these). It's that simple.

Sometimes it seems like you're having the hardest time making the simplest actions. The co-dependency has shifted from your W to the board at times.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 08:23 PM
I think you will shine more if you stand up to her and show her what S/D in the real world is like. Right now she has the best of both worlds. As you know I just had to stand up to mine and it was tough, and he may get angry, but this is the road HE chose.

I saw that. I see 25 commented on it to for you. The thing is she really isn't looking for anything from me except and occasional pick up of the kids and oh, she wanted me to replace 5 lightbulbs in her house that she can't reach of which I have not done yet. I told her I would while I was there a week ago, but forgot. I haven't made a special trip over there to do it either. Perhaps I should just not do it at all. If I do, I guess it is still letting her have her cake and eat it to.

Kevin
Posted By: Drew Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 08:25 PM
Kevin,

Just to be clear, we're not criticizing you. We're merely pointing out things you're doing or saying that didn't work in our situations. Stuck808 is saying the same things that I am in a slightly different way:

Showing her your actions = be a lighthouse instead.

Codependency = Man up

Make sense?
Posted By: Drew Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 08:27 PM
Don't change the flippin' light bulbs in her house!!!!!
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 08:28 PM
Quote:
IMO the problem is that you are trying to "show" her your actions. Just live your life and make your own decisions. Stand on your own two feet and don't rely on what I or others on here say.

You are the one that has to deal with the consequences not us. Write down what works (do more of them) and what doesn't (do less of these). It's that simple.


Stuck, I don't know what works with her. Nothing has worked to this point as far as bringing us to any kind of thinking about reconciliation. The only thing that has changed is she has been nicer over all for the majority of this month. Thats it. And I guess that is because I have been nice also to her and her family and not brought any type of R talk up in some time with her. I am a bit concerned that she may refile after New Years and after she has gotten another job. But I don't have a crystal ball to tell me for sure. She hasn't said anything about it in a while.

Quote:
Sometimes it seems like you're having the hardest time making the simplest actions. The co-dependency has shifted from your W to the board at times.


I at times do tend to get stuck on these boards when work is slow which it is this week. Also there just seems to be more interaction with W lately so I have been posting more about it. It is hard to decide to go through with a simple action sometimes because I worry about the outcome of that action if I go through with it.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 08:29 PM
Quote:
Just to be clear, we're not criticizing you. We're merely pointing out things you're doing or saying that didn't work in our situations. Stuck808 is saying the same things that I am in a slightly different way:

Showing her your actions = be a lighthouse instead.

Codependency = Man up

Make sense?


Yes, it does make perfect sense. And I know you aren't criticizing me. This is all good advice from real experience.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 08:31 PM
Quote:
Don't change the flippin' light bulbs in her house!!!!!


I had already said I would without thinking first when she mentioned it to me while I was over there. But I can refrain from doing it and let her figure out how to get it done.

Kevin
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 08:45 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
I am cashing out part of my 401k to pay off a credit card and to make up for not getting paid for work on Christmas day and new years day and to help make Christmas a bit better for my girls. I have another 401k plan though that I am not touching. This is the smaller one that I am pulling out.

Kevin


Bad idea. You pay taxes on your withdrawal from the 401k. Then after you repay the "loan" of your own money, which you've now paid taxes on, when you withdraw the funds down the line, you will AGAIN pay taxes on it. Worst financial thing to do. Hence the appeal of the Roth IRA for those who qualify and you do. (There better be a heck of a match from your company to make a 401k worth it in the first place-- but withdrawals from 401ks are fatal, financially.) There are many much cheaper ways.
j-


as for your sitch, it's just more of the same. You are ruled & paralyzed by your fears. By the way, when you said you "passed the good job onto her"... I thought that was weird to say. You turned it down b/c it meant more work for you --- which you did not want as you once said you were "not very ambitious", and she took it as an opportunity and worked hard at it, and now she earns lots more. That's what you said a year ago. Now, the story is you did her a favor...please. Thing is, if you are revising things like this, you can imagine how she is revising. Just...God K4, you need advice from robx and gucci. No women seem able to reach you. You are so afraid of being without her but you are without her. And you survived.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 08:58 PM
Quote:
Bad idea. You pay taxes on your withdrawal from the 401k. Then after you repay the "loan" of your own money, which you've now paid taxes on, when you withdraw the funds down the line, you will AGAIN pay taxes on it. Worst financial thing to do. Hence the appeal of the Roth IRA for those who qualify and you do. (There better be a heck of a match from your company to make a 401k worth it in the first place-- but withdrawals from 401ks are fatal, financially.) There are many much cheaper ways.
j-


From everything I read, I simply pay the fed taxes plus an early withdrawal fee. It didn't say anything about having to pay it back. It was a roll over IRA and not much money in the account to be honest. You are saying I do have to pay it back even if I pay the penalty and taxes on it?

Quote:
as for your sitch, it's just more of the same. You are ruled & paralyzed by your fears. By the way, when you said you "passed the good job onto her"... I thought that was weird to say. You turned it down b/c it meant more work for you --- which you did not want as you once said you were "not very ambitious", and she took it as an opportunity and worked hard at it, and now she earns lots more. That's what you said a year ago. Now, the story is you did her a favor...please. Thing is, if you are revising things like this, you can imagine how she is revising. Just...God K4, you need advice from robx and gucci. No women seem able to reach you. You are so afraid of being without her but you are without her. And you survived.


Gucci talks to me once in a while. And yes, I have survived being without her. I am not sure why you say no women are getting through to me. I understand exactly what they are saying and I am listening to them and thinking it over. But I will concede whatever you want me to even though I don't think it is completely true.

As far as being in the same place, I haven't left my W behind. So if that is what you are talking about, I guess you are right.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 09:00 PM
Ok, I see you getting overwhelmed with so many thing to do to stand up to W. I feel you. You and I are so much alike. Baby steps. Pick one or two things to start off with...I would personally start with the joint accounts. If it will save YOU money then you won't have to rob your 401K maybe? Once your first goal is made, work on the second one..then the third.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 09:01 PM
My coworker just told me if I close the 401k and take the distribution which isn't a loan, then I don't have to repay it. I just have to pay the penalty and the taxes.

Are you saying that is not the case?

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 09:04 PM
Quote:
Ok, I see you getting overwhelmed with so many thing to do to stand up to W. I feel you. You and I are so much alike. Baby steps. Pick one or two things to start off with...I would personally start with the joint accounts. If it will save YOU money then you won't have to rob your 401K maybe? Once your first goal is made, work on the second one..then the third.


I do get overwhelmed. But I think what was posted today is not overwhelming so much as do I want to move forward with it.

But yes, one goal at a time would work best. And right now that seems to be finishing off the joint accounts. But what is that going to say to W? Does that say to her go ahead and refile now? That is what I am worried about. I know everyone says don't be worried about that and that it will have no bearing on her decision. But it might if she is on the fence about going through with finishing it off.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 09:13 PM
"Nothing has worked to this point as far as bringing us to any kind of thinking about reconciliation."

Gee didn't we just have this conversation like a year ago?

Baby steps. that's your problem. You're still looking for the magic change of heart that your W is going to experience to get to reconciliation. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!

Be blessed with what you've gotten so far. She's okay to be around you now and not disgusted. She actually talks to you. Her family has thanked you for things. What can't you see as being an improvement. All this can be used towards R, but you just can't see it. No matter how many times everyone here has told you so.

I mean how on earth can you be asking the exact same questions you did a year ago? Have you really not changed at all?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 09:14 PM
I know what you all are saying. I am afraid to move forward without W in my life. To a good extent that is true. But I also don't want to push this D any further than it already is. I don't want to contribute to it being finalized. If there is even an ounce of hope left, I want to preserve that hope and not finish it off.

I realize I am the only one still in this M. W is gone and has been gone for over a year now. I understand that. I am just not ready to pull the plug and help finish it off.

Kevin
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 09:18 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D
But yes, one goal at a time would work best. And right now that seems to be finishing off the joint accounts. But what is that going to say to W? Does that say to her go ahead and refile now? That is what I am worried about. I know everyone says don't be worried about that and that it will have no bearing on her decision. But it might if she is on the fence about going through with finishing it off.

Kevin


I hardly think that her wanting to reconcile is based on financial reasons. Its going to say to W that you are sick of this, life must move on, and time to separate things. IMO, if anything it will possibly make her rethink things way more than just being super passive. But remember, she isn't going to be thrilled and may stomp her feet like a child.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 09:19 PM
Quote:
"Nothing has worked to this point as far as bringing us to any kind of thinking about reconciliation."

Gee didn't we just have this conversation like a year ago?

Baby steps. that's your problem. You're still looking for the magic change of heart that your W is going to experience to get to reconciliation. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!

Be blessed with what you've gotten so far. She's okay to be around you now and not disgusted. She actually talks to you. Her family has thanked you for things. What can't you see as being an improvement. All this can be used towards R, but you just can't see it. No matter how many times everyone here has told you so.

I mean how on earth can you be asking the exact same questions you did a year ago? Have you really not changed at all?


Stuck,

I do see it. I realize things have gotten better than they have been in a long time. I am grateful for it. It has been pointed out to me and I agree. That is one of the reasons I am hesitant to finish this off.

As far as a change of heart aint gonna happen goes. Can any of us really see the future and say that for sure? I don't think so. Change of hearts to happen. Look at my MIL. I would never have predicted that to occur ever. Somehow it did by my constant actions of being kind to her. It finally had some movement in her heart. And I thought she was more difficult to move than my W. Anything is possible and the impossible does happen. Will it? I don't know. I would have said no way with MIL and I would have been wrong there.

I am trying to keep what little bit of faith I have left alive. Granted I am holding onto it tight because it is all I have left at this point.

You are right in that I shouldn't ask the same questions that I did a year ago. But as circumstances change, the questions come up again in my mind.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 09:22 PM
Quote:
I hardly think that her wanting to reconcile is based on financial reasons. Its going to say to W that you are sick of this, life must move on, and time to separate things. IMO, if anything it will possibly make her rethink things way more than just being super passive. But remember, she isn't going to be thrilled and may stomp her feet like a child.


Ya, it may throw things back to an agitated state for her again at least temporarily. Or she may be all for it so as to finish it off completely.

Why am I worried about this. It isn't like anything I do here is going to change her mind. I keep thinking it might though. And I am letting it affect me and how to proceed.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 09:26 PM
I mean it seems like you can't even think about whether to change a lightbulb for her without wanting something in return. If you want to change it to be a nice guy, then do it. If you don't want to do it, then don't.

You can't keep expecting to do something to get something in return. Your disappointment comes through every time.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 09:30 PM
Quote:
I mean it seems like you can't even think about whether to change a lightbulb for her without wanting something in return. If you want to change it to be a nice guy, then do it. If you don't want to do it, then don't.

You can't keep expecting to do something to get something in return. Your disappointment comes through every time.


I wasn't expecting anything with the lightbulbs. I was just going to do it to be nice. Nothing more. She asked for help on it and I agreed. I just haven't remembered to do it since she asked.

Drew is saying don't do it. And I understand why he is saying that. It left me having to rethink about it.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 09:39 PM
"Perhaps I should just not do it at all. If I do, I guess it is still letting her have her cake and eat it to."

"I wasn't expecting anything with the lightbulbs. I was just going to do it to be nice. Nothing more. She asked for help on it and I agreed. I just haven't remembered to do it since she asked."

Wrong! You were expecting something even if you can't admit it to yourself (see above quote). Just changing a lightbulb for her isn't letting her cake eat. She asked and you said okay. End of story.

IMO I would change the bulb because you said you already said you would. Don't seem like an @$$ and then tell her you changed your mind.

A real man follows through on what he has promised regardless on who it is for.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 09:47 PM
Originally Posted By: K4D


As far as a change of heart aint gonna happen goes. Can any of us really see the future and say that for sure? I don't think so. Change of hearts to happen. Look at my MIL. I would never have predicted that to occur ever. Somehow it did by my constant actions of being kind to her. It finally had some movement in her heart.



Verrrrrrry interesting.

Kevin, as a classic "Mr. Nice Guy," you still operate from a basic paradigm "If I am nice enough to people, I can get them to do what I want," regardless of whether or not that is healthy for YOU, or attractive to THEM.

And despite thousands and thousands and thousands of posts, back and forth to you on this forum, I don't see that having changed one iota.

Hint: it needs to. For your own health and happiness.

Puppy
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 09:53 PM
Quote:
Wrong! You were expecting something even if you can't admit it to yourself (see above quote). Just changing a lightbulb for her isn't letting her cake eat. She asked and you said okay. End of story.

IMO I would change the bulb because you said you already said you would. Don't seem like an @$$ and then tell her you changed your mind.

A real man follows through on what he has promised regardless on who it is for.


I think you are right about needing to follow through with the lightbulbs. I don't want to come across as an @ss since I already said I would do it.

I understand what you are saying about expecting something. But I wasn't expecting anything out of her for doing it. Maybe by me saying it is letting her have her cake and eat it to you are thinking that I was expecting something. I am not sure what I would be expecting by me simply changing her light bulbs for her. A romp in the hay would be nice, but I know it ain't gonna happen, so I don't expect it. And I definitely don't dare ask for it.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 10:01 PM
You were expecting her position to be that she was intentionally taking advantage of you. It's like how you keep expecting her family to have some kind of underlying motivation to ask you to join them for things.

She probably just asked you for a favor. But this like so many of the other instances, you read into the smallest things. Like when she said she was home but you thought she wasn't. Who cares? You're just torturing yourself.

Go out and get a lady companion to get your mind off of her if you can't do it by now. It's been almost two years and I don't think you can't be co-dependant. I think you need someone there to take care of you or to say that what you're doing is okay.

Again, there's nothing wrong with that, but if you're going to insist on standing or whatever, then make a plan and do something about it rather than analyzing everything your W is doing.

Whatever happened to your GAL. And let me tell you, hanging out with a priest (although great) and people from the DB boards, does not constitute GAL. What have you done that doesn't involve the R with your W?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 10:01 PM
Quote:
Verrrrrrry interesting.

Kevin, as a classic "Mr. Nice Guy," you still operate from a basic paradigm "If I am nice enough to people, I can get them to do what I want," regardless of whether or not that is healthy for YOU, or attractive to THEM.

And despite thousands and thousands and thousands of posts, back and forth to you on this forum, I don't see that having changed one iota.

Hint: it needs to. For your own health and happiness.

Puppy


Isn't it kind of the old thing about treat people how you want to be treated? I guess that is what I was trying to do with MIL and W. I think it has changed things a bit, somewhat with MIL. And it has even changed things with W and me as far as us being able to coparent now and be together for certain situations. Funny thing is, as long as nobody else is around, W doesn't seem to mind sitting with me and last night asked me to save her a seat. But that does seem to change if people are around.

The smart thing is to probably go ahead and separate the remaining accounts. But can anyone who knows my sitch honestly say that if I went further and filed that it would make one iota of difference with regard to my W?

I know the general consensus is do it for me and my health or at least finish separating things and move forward with my life and let her decide the finale. I have thought at times about going ahead and filing and either being done or seeing if it changes anything. The only thing I think it would change is her feeling free and relieved to pursue OM and another M. I don't think it would be any kind of wake up call to her at all with regard to us. I don't even know that it would lead to any kind of new respect being as how she expects me to stand since that is what I told her I would do. Plus it says I was willing to go ahead and do what I said I would not do.

Yes, I am struggling today with considering moving forward a bit more in this process. I just keep thinking what if she is getting more and more back on the fence and then I do this and it pushes her right back off the fence and forward.

Kevin
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 10:06 PM
"I know the general consensus is do it for me and my health or at least finish separating things and move forward with my life and let her decide the finale. I have thought at times about going ahead and filing and either being done or seeing if it changes anything. The only thing I think it would change is her feeling free and relieved to pursue OM and another M. I don't think it would be any kind of wake up call to her at all with regard to us. I don't even know that it would lead to any kind of new respect being as how she expects me to stand since that is what I told her I would do. Plus it says I was willing to go ahead and do what I said I would not do."

Again with this?!

You are thinking of filing because you are hoping that she's going to turn around. If you're going to file, file because it will make you happy. Period.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 10:13 PM
Quote:
You were expecting her position to be that she was intentionally taking advantage of you. It's like how you keep expecting her family to have some kind of underlying motivation to ask you to join them for things.

She probably just asked you for a favor. But this like so many of the other instances, you read into the smallest things. Like when she said she was home but you thought she wasn't. Who cares? You're just torturing yourself.


Ok. I honestly didn't read into anything with the lightbulbs until it was brought up about not doing it and some cake eating talk today. But I can concede if you want me to.

Quote:
Go out and get a lady companion to get your mind off of her if you can't do it by now. It's been almost two years and I don't think you can't be co-dependant. I think you need someone there to take care of you or to say that what you're doing is okay.


14 months. But who is counting. A lady would help take my mind off of things somewhat, but I would feel guilty inside like I am doing something I shouldn't be doing. Tried it.

Quote:
Again, there's nothing wrong with that, but if you're going to insist on standing or whatever, then make a plan and do something about it rather than analyzing everything your W is doing.


It is just hard.

Quote:
Whatever happened to your GAL. And let me tell you, hanging out with a priest (although great) and people from the DB boards, does not constitute GAL. What have you done that doesn't involve the R with your W?


I guess GAL lately has fallen by the wayside. I haven't been dancing in a while. I have actually made another friend that I have been trying to help keep calm and help him see the positives in his situation. I went over to his place this past Saturday night and played some board games with him and his friend and had a good time. I have also been trying to keep things up around my place and trying to bring in the Christmas spirit there with my girls.

I also helped out at the church some trying to get the new church and house for the priest fixed and set up.

I have also been helping out another friend who is just getting screwed left and right by her H in court for a D that she has been trying to prevent. That is quite a story she is living. So I have been trying to help her.

But you are correct in that talking with my priest and on the boards does not constitute getting a life. I even let excercising fall by the wayside and I am trying to get back on that again.

There isn't much I haven't done that doesn't have anything to do with the R with my W.

I am thinking about getting my cert like I said earlier, but of course for 2 reasons. One it would further my career and bring in more money, and two, maybe having a better career would be more attractive to my W since she does seem to put importance on that.

Oh, and 25, whatever my reasons were, it still boils down to the fact that I did pass the job onto my W. But I don't disagree with what you said about my reasons for doing it at the time as I had said that as well and am not disputing it. But it was still passed onto my W none the less.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 10:15 PM
Quote:
Again with this?!

You are thinking of filing because you are hoping that she's going to turn around. If you're going to file, file because it will make you happy. Period.


There were 2 modes of thought at different times. One time was to see if it would change things. The other time was to finally be done and move on and give up. They didn't both occur at the same time.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 10:17 PM
I know there is a lot of posting today. I am just trying to make sure I am considerate and respond to each post. I am trying to be better about that as people graciously take the time to post to me and deserve to be answered.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 10:26 PM
Quote:
14 months. But who is counting.


Actually 15 months now. I decided to count real quick.

Kevin
Posted By: Drew Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 10:27 PM
Kevin,

You're not listening.

"maybe having a better career would be more attractive to my W since she does seem to put importance on that"

Anything you do JUST to impress her will backfire. She'll see right through it.

Good gawd man, do something for yourself!!!
Posted By: MrBond Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 10:30 PM
"But I can concede if you want me to."

"I" don't want you to concede or do anything! Stop letting people control you. I was just making a freaking point.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 10:38 PM
We need to go back and ask what did we learn after,
"Some people see things as they are and ask, 'Why?' Others see things as they could be and ask, 'Why not?'

Can we answer the next question?

or have we deviated too far off the beaten path....
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 10:46 PM
Quote:
You're not listening.

"maybe having a better career would be more attractive to my W since she does seem to put importance on that"

Anything you do JUST to impress her will backfire. She'll see right through it.

Good gawd man, do something for yourself!!!


It isn't just to impress her. It is to have a better future mainly. But I would think it would help with her as well feeling I am better able to provide than what I can right now.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 10:47 PM
Quote:
"I" don't want you to concede or do anything! Stop letting people control you. I was just making a freaking point.


I understand. I was just trying to not keep being in disagreement with you. I don't necessarily see it the way you did. But I can accept that you see it the way you do and maybe you are right. I can acknowledge that to.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 10:49 PM
Quote:
We need to go back and ask what did we learn after,
"Some people see things as they are and ask, 'Why?' Others see things as they could be and ask, 'Why not?'

Can we answer the next question?

or have we deviated too far off the beaten path....


SM,

What would the next question be. "How can we?" after asking "why not?"?

Kevin
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 10:52 PM
Just pondering....but maybe the best medicine would be meeting a girl or two at a bar for uninhibited no strings attached rabbit sex.
Posted By: Drew Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 10:54 PM
ARRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!
Posted By: PMA_Baby! Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 11:09 PM
Ugh! Am I the only one having De ja vu here?

Kevin, you are the epitomy of the phrase "life happens while you're making plans" Your life is passing by every minute and you are still STUCK on this person that doesn't give you a second thought all day unless she needs something or you contact her for something meaningless.

Let go. Move on.

It's true. We dont know the future. But that doesnt mean you can't use logic to predict it. Scientist and other professionals do it every day. You can't hide your head in the sand from reality.

If only you could have truly detached and moved on with your life months ago. You might have already been back together with your WAW. Or better yet come to the conclusion that you deserve better now that you WORKED on YOURSELF. Oh well. We will never know.

Oh and btw the way, thanks for congratulating me on my small court victory of possibly getting sole custody of my D4. Maybe you should stop focusing on yourself for a minute and start doing what you have been preaching.

No worries. Just making a point that believe it or not the world does not just revolve around Kevin and his problems.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 11:09 PM
Quote:
Just pondering....but maybe the best medicine would be meeting a girl or two at a bar for uninhibited no strings attached rabbit sex.


1) I would still be left in the same situation after it is over.
2) I can't morally bring myself to do it.

Yes, I realize my W had no problem doing it. But I can't do that. On top of it, it would just be an empty relationship if one at all.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 11:10 PM
Quote:
ARRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!


Drew,

Are you ok?

Kevin
Posted By: Drew Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 11:12 PM
Kevin,

I'm fine.

You're the one's that's stuck.
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 11:13 PM
Quote:
Ugh! Am I the only one having De ja vu here?

Kevin, you are the epitomy of the phrase "life happens while you're making plans" Your life is passing by every minute and you are still STUCK on this person that doesn't give you a second thought all day unless she needs something or you contact her for something meaningless.

Let go. Move on.

It's true. We dont know the future. But that doesnt mean you can't use logic to predict it. Scientist and other professionals do it every day. You can't hide your head in the sand from reality.

If only you could have truly detached and moved on with your life months ago. You might have already been back together with your WAW. Or better yet come to the conclusion that you deserve better now that you WORKED on YOURSELF. Oh well. We will never know.


I don't think I would have been back with her. And I don't think it would be better to be with someone else.

Maybe I can get my certification going and be better off in that area. That would be nice. And I do get tired of life passing me by without my W and kids in it every day anymore. But hey, I made a decision to get married and it is tough right now.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 11:17 PM
Quote:
I'm fine.

You're the one's that's stuck.


I appreciate your concern Drew. I am my own worst enemy. I have a lot of trouble forcing myself to further finalize any of this. I keep wanting to wait and see and of course I have been waiting for a while. Things are starting to thaw with W and her family moreso than they have since this began.

It makes it tougher to proceed forward with separating the rest and moving on. It is a stuck feeling. And waiting does seem to mean that life is passing me by. And waiting is unattractive. But I am not just sitting at home doing nothing. I am involved with doing things for others and with others.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 11:27 PM
I am really hoping tonight goes well. Last night seemed to. But I don't know if MIL will be there and how that will affect things if she is. Maybe it won't have any affect at all. Don't know. Will find out though.

I will definitely play tonight cool. I will be there for D12 and sit where ever is available and then after tell D12 how proud I am of her and tell her and D7 that I love them and that I will see them Friday night.

Then I will probably head home and work out.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 11:30 PM
Looks like a busy day at work tomorrow. That will be good. Keep my mind off of things.

I am also thinking about putting my resume out there again tonight. I might go ahead and just do that.

Kevin
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 11:44 PM
Originally Posted By: KerryK
Just pondering....but maybe the best medicine would be meeting a girl or two at a bar for uninhibited no strings attached rabbit sex.


It would certainly calm him down a bit. laugh
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/16/09 11:56 PM
Originally Posted By: Sad Girl
It would certainly calm him down a bit. laugh

Maybe I was projecting since I am a single guy with no major baggage and an empty house for the next week... smirk
Posted By: Super Girl Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/17/09 12:12 AM
Originally Posted By: KerryK
Originally Posted By: Sad Girl
It would certainly calm him down a bit. laugh

Maybe I was projecting since I am a single guy with no major baggage and an empty house for the next week... smirk


You live in the Beaver State for cripes sake, whatcha waiting for? Hit the bar.

Yes, I know that was a bad joke.
Posted By: smith18 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/17/09 12:27 AM
I am negotiating the time and location via email right now for a first date tonight with a girl who went to OSU - that makes her a Beaver.
Posted By: Tomato Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/17/09 01:02 AM
Originally Posted By: sg
Hi everyone...if your threads are long...about over 100 posts, please help everyone out by starting a new thread. The board works more efficiently that way. Don't wait til you're closed out....please 'self-moderate'.

Happy Holidays,
sg


ahemmmmm... nudge ..nudge. You're the primest of candidates dude! lol

T
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/17/09 02:03 AM
57 channels and nothing onnn . . . . .


ZZZZzzzzz..................... crazy

Puppy
Posted By: ClingingToHope Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/17/09 02:20 AM
She can't miss you if you are always around.
Posted By: Startingover2 Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/17/09 02:28 AM
just catching up!
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/17/09 02:55 AM
non divorce-busting question,

does your daughter have an aptitude for martial arts?

or are you using it as a way to help her to develop confidence, self-respect and decisiveness?
Posted By: K4D Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/17/09 04:32 AM
Here is my new thread called K4D It's a Wonderful Life
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1896268&#Post1896268

Closing this one out. Responses are on the new thread.

Kevin
Posted By: ppenton Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/17/09 04:33 AM
The LORD is my light and my salvation—whom shall I fear?
The LORD is the stronghold of my life—of whom shall I be afraid? ~Psalm 27:1

K4D, as 25 has told you many times you cannot live in fear as it will paralyze you which you may have noticed today.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: K4D To Be Or Not To Be ??? - 12/18/09 07:45 AM
Originally Posted By: K4D
My coworker just told me if I close the 401k and take the distribution which isn't a loan, then I don't have to repay it. I just have to pay the penalty and the taxes.

Are you saying that is not the case?

Kevin


You'll be paying the taxes at your highest tax rate, which in your case, I'm guessing is between 15-25% of your gross income, plus the penalty...are your credit card's interest rates really higher than that? Plus, you'll now have no retirement saved. A ROTH IRA is probably a lot better for someone like you, for several reasons beyone the scope of this DB site. Although I give financial seminars, I'm leery of doing that here. So Ask your financial advisor. Or read up on it online at "morningstar" or read about Vanguard funds. They're cheap, and varied, and on average do better than 80% of the more expensive "managed" funds.

j-
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