MY H had an affair beginning late 2005 and finally left our home and family two years ago. Initially it was very tense between us all and there was very limited contact between him and the children. He was very aggressive, demanding and selfish-definitely MLC. We have been through various stages-explosive outbursts, no contact and then even some positive conversations along the way. He does not want a divorce (although he has threatened this in anger at times)as he is never remarrying. He is equally adamant that he doesn't want our relationship. He is still with ow although does not live with her.
I have seen tiny glimpses of the man I married and I have hung on tightly to those images. I have worked hard to be a friend to him without having discussions or expectations of a future. I have focussed on words of affirmation after him saying that he was never good enough for me.
In recent months there has been further movement and he has been making considerable effort to reconnect with our children and now his parents. He will call me although it is usually related to the children or business. He is usually happy to help out when I ask and is inclined to call in when he drops the children back although these visits are usually fairly brief-10 mins or so.
I could type pages but I don't want this to be too daunting or boring for you! I am keen to get a point of view here.........Do I keep on doing what I have been doing (as obviously I have had some success, albeit very, very slow success) and remain incredibly patient or do I recognise that he is enjoying a friendship with me on his terms and just move away?
I think it depends on how long you think you can handle it. It's already been an incredibly long time, and it's moved at a snail's pace.
I personally think that as long as he gets his physical and some of his emotional needs met by OW, and the rest of his emotional needs met by you, that he'll NEVER have to make a decision. All of our nuances and complexities aside, us humans really ARE "path-of-least-resistance" creatures, and rarely do we do anything until we're forced to.
What are the financial arrangements?
Puppy
Thanks for your thoughts Puppy.
We have not separated financially as we have yet to sell our business.
Hmmm. So Puppy are you suggesting that I should tell him that I cannot continue in this manner with the hope that he eventually realises that he really belongs here with us? I guess my only fear is that it has taken all this time to develop a 'friendship' and my moving aside could close down all possibilities if he feels I am pressuring him. Does that make sense?
Chrissy
I'd love to hear the perspective of others who have persisted with an MLCer. I get so tired of always being the one who patiently waits and reaches out. However, that being said there has been a definite shift recently. In the meantime I am still getting on with life, hardly sitting by and waiting for his call!
You should check out the MLC section too.
hi...check out my threads under infidelity (he is back, i think),,,and under mid-life crisis (total quarter life crisis)
i have been going through this nightmare since fall 2006, with my husband coming home 2 times in between and leaving, most recently last month.
sometimes it helps to read other situations to help figure out your own.
im happy to help, we can help eachother, its an hour at a time...
Alive, I have read the MLC section and the MLC resources. I strongly admire people like Yellowrose and Brandnewday who persisted with the eventual goal of reconnection.
Thanks md.I will have a look at your thread. I have read some of your sitch before but I didn't obviously take note of how long you've been at this.
Chrissy
So Puppy are you suggesting that I should tell him that I cannot continue in this manner with the hope that he eventually realises that he really belongs here with us?
I think that's best decided by you. Can you continue in this manner in the hopes that he may eventually realize at sometime that he belongs with you? I've been going through this for about 1.5 years I have to say no when I ask myself that question, but everybody reaches that decision point at different times.
I guess my only fear is that it has taken all this time to develop a 'friendship' and my moving aside could close down all possibilities if he feels I am pressuring him. Does that make sense?
Totally. I used to base most, maybe all my decisions out of fear. I think that's probably the worst reason/way to make decisions. I think you should try to make that decision and not focus on what may or may not happen, but on what you need to do that is best for you and your family.
Karen
Thanks Karen, food for thought........
I guess we have made the most significant progress in the last months and we are at the stage of being able to rely on each other for support. He has just started to call me and there has been a definite shift and that is why I have some reluctance to draw the line in the sand I guess. On the flip side, however, I don't want to be a friend for the rest of my days! I want a husband.
If you feel you're making significant progress lately, then keep up the same. You could also set a mental deadline for yourself, say a couple months from now, like August or September, and reevaluate at that time. If you're kind of in the same place or not much progress, then at that time you could decide to change your tactics then. I wouldn't tell him about this deadline or anything, just kind of would be for you. You could spend the time working hard on GALing, creating a great life for you and your family with or without him. Something you should do no matter what happens to your M.
Karen
Karen, I like the idea of the mental deadline. Think I'll mark a date on my calendar. I have recently started writing the daily interactions down, too so I can measure progress.
I live a fairly full and busy life and I am fairly social so that has helped as well.
As for ow I have continued along pretending she doesn't exist.
Hmmm. So Puppy are you suggesting that I should tell him that I cannot continue in this manner with the hope that he eventually realises that he really belongs here with us? I guess my only fear is that it has taken all this time to develop a 'friendship' and my moving aside could close down all possibilities if he feels I am pressuring him. Does that make sense?
Chrissy
Yes, but it's not about HIM -- it's about YOU.
When you make it about them, it's pressure, and it's CONTROLLING. Ex.: "I forbid you to see OM."
When you make it about YOU, it's a BOUNDARY, and it's healthy. Ex.: "I cannot live in an open marriage."
See the difference?
Puppy
Ok. Thanks Puppy, that's clear!
To me it sounds alot like my sitch although I don't know all the details just skimming through your thread.
When I was seeing some progress in my h, I stepped back and watched. I didn't say anything to him and I let him come to me. I had a life and kept busy,like you.
I wouldn't change anything right now IMHO.
You sound like you are doing well with the whole sitch. I know how hard it is to just sit back, keep your mouth shut and your opinions to yourself. I had a really hard time with that. I hated being the nice person while I was getting walked all over by my h. He had the ow and seemed like he was really happy. I was trying to fine me again! That is what is so important. We tend to loose ourselves in our M.
I hope this makes sense....
Y
Y, thank you so much for your feedback. I have spent quite some time reading through your threads and yours is the sitch I found that was most similar to mine so I really appreciated your insights.
OW has been around for 3 years and we've been separated for 2 years. They don't live together and haven't done which is a shame because I'm sure it would have died earlier if they had.
In the early stages I worked purely out of emotion; begging and persuing. It got me no where!!! Reading DR and LL changed my perspective completely. I could see why I wouldn't want to be married to me!! I stopped "beating him up" and instead gave him words of affirmation and recognised and thanked him for his Acts of Service towards me. I was so often hurt by his cold and distant manner but I treated him as if he was H of years ago-my best friend.
I told him that I was letting him go and then made no further contact unless I really had to for business or children. Whenever he came here I was pleasant and upbeat. Slowly but surely he started popping in when he dropped the kids off, chatting occasionally and the temper tantrums began to occur less frequently and subside quicker. I also learnt to stop rewarding bad behaviour. I also discovered that being so agreeable meant there wasn't much left to fight over!!
The last two months have shown the greatest changes....he now asks how I am, there's eye contact,if I text he'll reply with more than 'ok' or he'll phone me back, there's humour, conversation initiated by him, a strengthening relationship with our children and those Acts of Service. It's still incredibly slow and I am so impatient............ Yes, I too find it hard to keep my mouth shut and not to try to hurry it along or to throw an ultimatum at him.
Most of my friends and family have told me to stop being nice to him and forget him but I figure this is my life and my choice and if I'm happy then good for me. (Just occasionally I think they're right!)
Thanks for your thoughts Y. They have helped affirmed me at a time when I was starting to doubt myself. I have waited so long now and I don't want to sabotage my efforts due to my impatience.
C
Cas
You are doing a good job and have come a long way. It sounds like your H is making baby steps, so like I said just sit back and watch it happen. There will be little things that you will notice.
I had so many family members and friends tell me to give up on my H. Yes, there were alot of times I wanted to throw in the towel but I just couldn't. My gut was telling me to hang in there.
You are in my prayers. Hang in there!
Y
YR, my gut is also telling me to hang in there so I have marked a date (30 Sept) on my calendar when I will reassess the progress and make a further decision on that date. If I focus in 90 day blocks it may help me to be more patient and also help me to measure progress. In the meantime a lot is happening in our lives. I think by 30 Sept there should be some more definite direction one way or the other.
Only you know what is best for you! Always go with your gut! lol
Y
I said a lot was happening but apparently not at the moment! All is pretty quiet. H has agreed to accompany me to S's formal which is a positive.
Question time: H often comes by unannounced and has a chat to our children. We always greet each other but after that I am often unsure if I should appear too busy to stop and have a conversation or if I should initiate a conversation. If I initiate he responds positively. If I don't initiate sometimes he does but more often he doesn't.
I think I've answered this through further reading around the boards. I am going to initiate conversation as he certainly seems to respond when I do. If I give nothing, I get nothing and it appears to be an interaction opportunity wasted. I think he takes his lead from me.
How's that sound?
Cas
Hi Chrissy,
You came by my thread once to introduce yourself. I'm just now getting around to yours, so glad I have read your thread. I don't know how LBS's do what they do with us WAS!! I would never have that kind of patient! I even wonder if I could have enough "love" that I've seen with good people such as yourself. It never ceases to amaze me.
I agree with YR. If you feel that you are making progress, then you need to go with the flow. As long as you can handle knowing about him and OW........BTW, does he know that you are aware of OW? I figured after all this time that it would be obvious. I also figured that is what brought about the S. But you said you acted as though she didn't exsist.......anyway, I think I've talked my way though that and answered my own question....
I have been on the computer all day talking to DBers and I guess I am just "rambling" now....lol.
About the only thing I have to add about your stitch is the fact that I think one reason it is taking such a long, long time for your H to come around to wanting to return home is the fact he is "afraid" that when if
does....things will return to how it use to be. Remember what you said you were like as his W? He doesn't want that "wife" again. He likes the way you are
NOW. Maybe he doesn't want to spoil the environment....or connection.....or friendship, by complicating it. Know what I mean? If he returned home....would you become the way you use to be? Right now you don't think you would ever be that person again....if only your H would come back home and let you PROVE to him how wonderful you could be! Right? Well, he's scared. He is like the "turtle" who is slowly sticking his head out to take a peek and then if you "pursue" too much...he'll pop that head back into his shell. Frustrating, isn't it? It takes so long before he'll trust you to the point of keeping that head poked out and then finally taking that first step.....and then slowly walking toward you. He may get scared again and stop walking and stick that head back in that old shell of his. But so far, you've done a marvelous job of maintaining the DB techniques. No way could I have done what you have!
Chrissy, I'll check back with you, okay? I hope you and your family will have a great 4th of July.
Sandi
My Goals ..........
1. When H visits I will continue to initiate conversation and he will respond.
2. I will initiate hugs when I say goodbye each time I see him and monitor his comfort with these.
3. I will conatct him re my surgery and invite him to coffee to discuss. I will ask for his support.
I will continue to work on me (clothes, hair, exercise, makeup etc) and also work on keeping the house really tidy.
I will meet H for coffee tomorrow afternoon to discuss surgery so one part of the step achieved!
2. I will initiate hugs when I say goodbye each time I see him and monitor his comfort with these.
I don't know, Chrissy, I think I would hold off on any physical touching yet. You are going kind of fast here. I think you are anxious and it causes you to be pushy.
When your H comes over to see the kids or when he's dropping them off and he's there for only a few minutes......you must be very cautious about not appearing too giddy over seeing him. Try your best to behave calmly and speak in a soft voice and show a "peace" within yourself. If you act peaceful and calm and have a soft voice......then he will relax. The point is to help him feel comfortable. If he goes in for a couple of minutes and you are talking 90 miles an hour....trying to get him in a "conversation" and responding to what you are talking about (and I don't know that that is how you do it....I'm just saying "IF" you did....) then he's going to immediately be "on guard" b/c he doesn't know what the heck is going on.
Then.....if he starts to leave and you initiate hugs.....OH MAN....he is going back in that shell and stay a long time b/c now--he's "really" scared.
I don't believe a LBW should initiate physical affection. The WAH will do that when "he's" ready and you don't need to try to push him into it. Okay?
3.I will conatct him re my surgery and invite him to coffee to discuss. I will ask for his support.
Sorry, but I can't remember.....what is this about?
I don't want to sound insensitive to something major like surgery.....but sweetheart, this is still pursuing him. You would be chasing him with this behavior. You need to back up where you were before this last post.
It is "his" place to show "you" concern and invite "you" for coffee to discuss it. And....he should
offer his support without you having to ask for it! You would be coming across as very "needy" and "clingy".
Not knowing what kind of surgery you are having makes this difficult to talk about b/c if it is something that is going to require treatments afterwards, or rehabilitation, or an extended amount of time for recovery.......I understand your
"NEED" for his support. I feel really bad telling you that you will appear to be clingy, etc. I am trying to give you the POV from the WAS and it sounds terribly "cold" when putting it into words.
I know you don't want to do anything to lose the ground that has been gained the past couple of months. You are at critical point and if you rush this by putting emotional pressure on him.....it will push him away. It sounds all about him, doesn't it? Again, just trying to tell you what these crazy WAS are like.
Does he know about your surgery? If he
doesn't......
then you do need to tell him. Can you tell us if this is something where he will be required to keep the children for a long time, or something like that? In a case like that, you
should discuss all the details with him, Chrissy. Please understand what I'm saying and don't get hurt or think I'm telling you something mean. I care very much that you are facing surgery of "any kind" b/c nobody wants to go through that. But depending on how critical this is--will determine how you should act when you discuss it (if he doesn't know). But if he is already aware of it--and if it is
not a life threatening type of surgery.....you know what I'm trying to say......then don't use this as an opportunity or an advantage....(
) to try to gain more ground with him. Okay?
I'm so sorry if this has hurt you b/c God knows I would not do that on purpose! Not knowing the details is hard to tell what to do.
To sum it up.....keep it slow and easy--like you've been doing. Don't make any "new" moves yet. Wait and see how he reacts to your surgery without you putting any emotional pressure on him (like asking for his support) and see if he "gives" his support willingly. Wouldn't that be much, much better?
Do you mind telling me "when" you will be having the surgery? I hope that everything will go well for you. We will be here to support you in your MR as best as we can. Mental and emotional stress sure is bad when one is having to go through the physical problems as well.
I sure hope I've not brought you way down to hit bottom. That was not my intentions when I read your goals. I think you just got a little carried away with them.
I will talk to you later. Have a peaceful night.
Sandi
Hey Cas
I thought I would drop by your thread as it seems like there are some similarities in our situations. My h has been gone for 21 months now and is currently living with ow. I pursued him for 6 months until he finally turned round and said enough, and then I found DBing. Since then I have backed off and he turned round in March and said that he wanted to be friends. Since then we have made lots of baby steps.
I guess the key struggle I find is how far to go and when to push and pull back and let him come to me. I guess I have really let him set the pace and it is working.
Reviewing your goals in context I agree with Sandi. I would change them slightly as you are trying to guide him and it would be much better for him to make the decisions himself.
Be the woman only a fool would leave (as 25yearsmlc) says. It can only help your h situation and will improve your confidence 10 fold. I would say that hugging him each time he arrives and leaves may be too much. I would hug him occasionally so he gets a taste of what he is missing and I would stick to keeping these to times when you have had a really positive interaction or something good has happened.
Again with initiating conversation, could you explain a typical interaction with him and we may be able to come up with some suggestions. I sometimes initiate but I find that if I don't h usually chats for England! When we first meet there is always initial awkwardness but if you are calm and friendly and smile (most important!) this will dissipate.
With regards to your telling him about your illness and asking him for help... guys love to problem solve. It gives them a feeling of achievement and satisfaction. I would just tell him about your hospital visit and don't make suggestions about how he could help you. Let him come up with them organically. I did this recently with my own situation. We are selling our house and h had to come up to collect his stuff. I took the pressure off and he saw how much I had to shift - he is now hiring a moving van and moving all my stuff for me on the 12th July. Six months ago we were barely speaking!
It takes so much patience.
You want to sow seeds of doubt in your h's mind that this isn't the right path. Focus on your 180s - what are these? You could make your goal something like 'h will spend increased time with us' and then weave some ideas in there that will go towards achieving that. Just a suggestion, please feel free to disregard. What you have been doing has been working; can you identify what those things were?
Hi Sandi,
Firstly please can I thank you for visiting and posting. I am certainly not feeling any sensitivity to your suggestions. In fact, I welcome them and that is precisely why I finally decided to post. I think it is so wonderful to have the advice of people who are walking the path, or have walked it in some way. I am quite impatient to achieve in normal circumstances and so this sitch has been a real test for me.
Anyway, this may become a very long winded post so grab your coffee now Sandi! I love a chat and i can see you're quite fond of a word or two, yourself!
From your posts let's begin at the beginning. OW has been around 3 years and H left before I found out about the R. When I pieced it altogether and determined who OW was I gave her way too much attention in my mind. Although I knew who she was and saw her every so often I never spoke to her. Eventually I came to terms with the fact that she didn't really need to take up so much of my attention and I have learned to accept she's there (although the day she goes will be cause for celebration!) but I am not going to give her the power to ruin my day.
Onto my goals....I appreciate your thoughts in relation to these. I devised them after being on 'goals' forum and on re-reading them I recognise what you are saying but they're perhaps not as desperate as they might appear. Perhaps I didn't write them as well as I might have....knew what I meant I guess.
Goal 1: I think my conversations with H are usually quite calm and peaceful. Over the past months I have been working hard for him to see that our relationship is a 'safe' one. I try to show no pressure or expectations. I affirm often. I have been making sure when he pops in that I have a chat and then leave the room before he does to do other jobs. He usually pops in a few times a week. My intention in this goal was prompted after seeing him yesterday. He came by the house and was speaking to S outside. I didn't know he was there until I went to the garage. We called out hi and I went inside again. I later felt uncomfortable about that because I thought if it were any other visitor I would go and say hello and chat for a few minutes. That's what I had in mind for goal one...a chat for a few minutes rather than hello from afar.
Feel free to challenge my thinking because I can see the flip side that if he wanted to speak to me he would. I just don't want him to think I am avoiding him or ignoring him.
Goal 2: I hear where you are coming from on this and I am sure it's my anxiety talking, particularly after posting on the other forum. Anyway, point taken and I will change this accordingly. No harm done at this stage because I haven't seen him and we've hugged at his initiation only twice in the last 6 months!
Goal 3: Now H didn't know of my surgery so today I emailed him to ask him to meet with me to discuss it if he wished. I worded the email very, very carefully so I didn't pressure him and I gave him the opportunity to not have the discussion if he didn't want to. It was his choice. I can't afford to push him into anything. The surgery will be challenging but not life threatening.
I will be in hospital for 10 days and have a fairly lengthy and I believe, quite painful recuperation. Therefore, I am asking for support for me by way of the children-transporting them and perhaps having them for an extra meal or two. I am not relying on him or asking for his support in any other way! I chose to undertake this surgery at a time when he was speaking to me some days, shouting at me and not speaking at all on others. At that time I thought that I would be without his personal support. I chose the surgery regardless of his support and I still do!! If he offers more than transport and a meal or two for the kids , terrific. If not, it's as I expect. I am confident H will want to know the details. However, I will have to judge how much I share based on his response tomorrow.
I probably haven't quite finished and I am sure I haven't yet answered all your qns but my D is getting a little anxious that I watch a DVD so I'm heading off now.
Thanks once again, Sandi. Your words are so appreciated!
C
Hey JCJ,
I have spent a long evening reading your threads and getting a better idea of your sitch........I could relate to so much there! I will write more about that when I have a bit more time to spare.
Some of your points were also part of Sandi's so I'm sure my response to her will be a part of my reply to you.
It's pretty late now and I promised my D a shopping trip so I'll be up and out fairly early. Time for bed!
Catch up soon!
C
Thank you Chrissy. You cleared up some things for me and I do appreciate it. I didn't know how to "word" my post concerning goal No. 3, as you could tell. I did not want to be nosey and I did not want to appear to be "cold hearted" and as one poster told me that I was using the "tough love" approach and it didn't work with her...
But that was not what I was doing....I just try to tell it like I see it from the WAS POV. Anyway.....so glad you told me that you were looking for his support in helping the children and not wanting to ask him for his "emotional" support. That was the way I should have stated it in my post in the wee hours of the morning....but my brain was about to fry after being on the board for so long.
I most certainly agree that you should discuss with him the arrangements and "support" regarding the children. After all, it is his responsibility as their parent to take care of them. You will have enough to deal with while you are in the hospital. Ten days is a long time! Bless your heart. You know that our emotions are very fragile when we are going through stuff like you are facing. You don't need any concerns over "who's" taking the kids where, etc. I hope that your H will "step-up" like he's suppose to.
A word of caution here, I have learned that men are not very strong when it comes to women's illness's. The more serious it is, the less they seem to know how to deal with it. When they go to the hospital....they don't know what to say and most of them stand there tongue-tied for a few minutes and then give up and leave. I have seen this down through the years with many, many different cases. So....if your H comes across as "cold" or won't say anything....please don't think that it is b/c he doesn't care about what is going on with you. Men just don't know how to handle these things the way women do. I think God gave the females a natural instict of nurturing b/c of when mothers stayed at home with the children all day, they had to deal with emergencies/crises, and other health related issues, when dad was out working. So, dads don't seem to be emotionally prepared to know how to respond. As you see, I go "around by grandma's house" to tell something. (That is an old expression!)
I think you've done a good job explaining your goals and they are good!
I have another question, when your H left, did you tell him to leave or was that his decision?
Oh, you mentioned another thread. Do you have another one or were you refering to somebody's you had posted to?
BTW, (lol>I keep thinking of things to ask......will you be able to have a lap top while in the hospital, or will you even feel like using one? Just was wondering how long it would be before we would here how you were doing.) Yes, I can get quite talkative,
Hey, what would life be if everyone was like my H and didn't say anything....ugh! (lol) He's much better now since "Piecing our M back together Again".
Hope you have a good weekend.
Sandi
Sandi and JCJ, back again. H and I were married for 20 years and had anyone asked I would have said he was a loving, sensitive, generous and intelligent family man.
He cared for me compassionately throughout a long illness and then it was as if he awoke one day and thought, "I'm done with caring for her. It's now about me!"
He became cold, distant, selfish and irrational. I kept treating him the way I always had but I was becoming increasingly hurt by his actions and his explosive temper tantrums. Then there was my unflattering begging and pursuing.
Very naievely, I realise now, I sat with him and told him I could no longer live this way, hoping he would agree to work together on the issues. He told me all the usual stuff; It's not you, it's me; we've never been happy; I should never have married; we have nothing in common anymore. Instead of effecting the reunion I hoped he left. I had given him exactly what he wanted!
He was difficult to deal with but the real issues came to the fore when the A was revealed. He stopped seeing the children, both his and my family and our friends.
Phase 1: He blamed, I blamed
Phase 2: He blamed, I defend myself
Phase 3: He blamed, I listen
I read and read and read and I talked and talked and talked to a few close friends. I had three sessions with a DB coach.I analysed my behaviour and his. I have loads of potential as a warm, caring and sensitive wife!!
I loved LL and it all made sense to me. I stopped solving his problems and instead affirmed his problem solving. I recognised the AoS he did for me. I thanked.
I became better at setting boundaries and shutting up. Still working on keeping my mouth closed. Hard for me to comprehend that less is more!
The loving and sensitive man I married is re-emerging but I can't get too far ahead. OW is still there. He likes his own company...could be the tendency to him to try to have it all.....family, OW and solo time.
So I'm here to gather a further perspective and to get people to help keep me in check. I can't give my life to H and I am tempted to throw in an ultimatum and just get on with it. However, like you Julia, I just can't walk away.
C
PS Hadn't thought about the laptop Sandi. Hopefully I could get my children to bring it in for me to check in.
Want to be more successful more quickly was the thread I was posting on-
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...325#Post1794325
He cared for me compassionately throughout a long illness and then it was as if he awoke one day and thought, "I'm done with caring for her. It's now about me!"
Hummm, man, this hits close to home. My D was diagnosed with a disease when she was a teenager. She's had rough times with R's b/c of the stress it seems to take on the man. It's not fair to
her... b/c she can't help having the disease! Never-the-less, I can see it happening each time she's been involved with a man. Heck, I even experienced it myself!
As Joan Rivers would say....."Can we talk, here?"
I'm just refering to my own personal experience b/c I don't know enough about yours and if it seems to stomp a toe.....it will be accidently.
So.....naturally, I love my D with all my body & soul. But, every time we have tried to live together (since she before she was M the "first" time), it nearly drives me insane. The stress I experienced when she was a teenager and attending high school, all returns as if she never left home. I have my own ideas of "why" I get so stressed but no point in getting into all of that. But here's the kicker. Along with the stress would come a mountain of guilt. Yes, I would feel so guilty for feeling the way I did and the fact that I did not handle things the way I thought "a good mother" should. B/c there were times that I thought that I could not deal another day with the situation and I would want to run away and escape. After she was out on her own and M, etc., there were days that I just could not make myself call to check on her. I would beat myself up like crazy. I looked at it as I'm a bad mother....and b/c my D doesn't have the pleasure of escaping her disease, like I wanted to escape!! So, there you have it rather in a nut shell but those are personal feelings I had to live with for a long, long time. Stress of a handicapp or an disease is something that "some" folks don't seem to be able to handle. A long illness is very stressful and I've been in that type of situation also. It is rough on all the people involved....the ill person
and the caretakers.
Now, back to your stitch. I don't know if your illness back then has to do with the surgery you are going to have now.....but it rang a bell when you said what you did about your H helping you when you were sick. "If" this was a daily...shall I say--"ordeal" for both of you....then I sure don't have to tell
you how that takes a toll on a M couple. Do you think that he reached a place that he could not handle it and allowed stress to get to him too much? Do you think his A with OW happened when he was trying to "escape" his own reality? (Don't know that I am saying that very well.) You know, like some people may go to a bar and get drunk, others get involved in an A.
Perhaps, none of this has a connection at all......I am feeling my way around here.
He became cold, distant, selfish and irrational
.
You said that you kept treating him the same....but you see...."YOU" were not his problem. "HE" was his problem. This description of him is common of the WAS. Whether there were physical problems involved or not, he apparently felt very guilty over his inability to be the man he needed to be and of course....
guilty over his A. Many peple act like he did when they are in a MR and feel guilty/ashamed about something. They are actually trying to cover up their shame.
The things he said to you were what we call "script" for a WAS.
It was probably tough to be M to a great gal and know he scr@wed up. Most of us who are WAS will someway try to find fault with our LBS so we don't have to bear all the guilt ourselves. He may have succeeded in doing that, but I hope you did not allow it to change who you are. If you were a great person before the S, then you need to remain a great person and not become bitter or resentful. Now, that would be a remarkable thing, considering he has OW....huh? Well, you don't "sound" bitter to me......you just sound like a woman who loves her H and wants him to come back home. You sound anxious to want to do all the right things. I, for one, am here praying that you will get over your surgery quickly and that the R will get back on track ASAP.
Okay, well, once again I hope I did not speak out of place. I wanted to share that with you to let you know that I've been down a similar road where health issues and family problems are concerned.
Be sure to let us know how he reacts to your talk to him about him helping out with the kids while you are in the hospital. BTW, aren't you going to need him for a while, after you go home?
Sandi
Hi Cas
Well, maybe I can come at this from the other side also and share with you some of the feelings I felt at having to care for my h. He was so ill in our first year of marriage.
I felt like I was a care-giver and the romance had gone. I wanted to feel special for a while, I was flattered by others attention and resentful that I felt I didn't get it from my h - they were my feelings and not true! Everyone asked how my h was, no one asked about me. Most of all, I was confused that after spending so much time loving and caring for my h (and still did) that I could behave in such a selfish manner; I was shocked at myself and felt confusion and guilt.
I did the same as you and told him I couldn't live this way. He began switching off from that point. For me too ow is still there but I have no idea what is going on with them. It is hard not to see them as a barrier but you can only control you and not their relationship. It seems like a huge wall to conquer but look how far you have come by adopting your new strategy. Assess what is working. It is going to be slow but the more positive interactions you have the more progress you will make. Not being able to walk away is a constant struggle and I can't decide for myself whether it is a good or a bad thing! Sometimes I wish I could - it'd be so much easier!
Now you have given a bit of background over your illness. My advice would be that when you talk about it with him is to not have your own agenda. Neutrally present the fact that you are going to be in hospital for a while and it will take approx (however much time before you are up and about again). See what he comes up with and see if you can work together to find a solution. Remember that for now you are dealing with practicalities not emotions. Guys in the place where are h's are, are much more able to deal with practicalities rather than emotions. If you do need to prompt him, then used 'would you' instead of 'could you'.
With regards to throwing in an ultimatum, for me I think the time will come when it may happen. My DB coach said 'wait till you will be heard'.
Sending you my very best wishes for your hospital visit. (((Cas)))
Do you think that he reached a place that he could not handle it and allowed stress to get to him too much? Do you think his A with OW happened when he was trying to "escape" his own reality?
Yes, that's exactly it. Nearly a year of treatment, multiple surgeries and hospital stays placed H under enormous pressure not only to care and support me but also to take on my role as well. I didn't work for 9 months either. He was left to do it all. I was so pre-occupied keeping myself as healthy and balanced as possible that I obviously didn't nurture him as I could have(no self blame, just a fact). Much of what you wrote, Julia about caring for your H is apparent to me now but of course I was blind to that then. I idolised him and cherished his love but sadly he didn't feel this. Reality is that unbeknowns to me there was someone waiting in the wings deciding he was a 'good catch' and she took over the caring and nurturing.
When I found out I was devastated. It was being punched in the gut all over again and it took all my effort to get back on my feet, brush myself off and face the world again. And Sandi, you're spot on about the guilt, too. Your words about the blame affirmed my thoughts. He did blame me to appease his guilt.
Life has taught me that there's no time for anger or bitterness, actually there's no time for anything much! So here I am trying my hardest to have the best possible R i can with my H. It may be civility or friendship or God willing, reconciliation but whatever it is it's got to be better than where we were 2 years ago!
As to OW, like you J, I don't know where that's at (except from my own conclusions) and as it's beyond my control I choose to let it go.
H and I met this afternoon to discuss surgery. He rang to organise a time when I was having a nap after my long day shopping with D. He asked if I was ok. I said yes and then asked if he had woken me. We had a very pleasant convo. He arrived about 15 minutes later.
It was a fairly brief but pleasant meeting. We had a coffee and a chat. I tried not to dominate the conversation...(now that's a 180!!). I also asked for absolutely nothing...left him to do the offering.
H is quite familiar with the surgery so I left him to ask the qns about it all. As this is not life threatening, although major surgery it helped keep the discussion simple and unemotional.
He asked almost immediately what help I needed with the children. I explained that my parents would come to stay(they live locally) if he was happy with that. He was. H said he would do all he could to best assist my parents.
He did comment that my mother never calls him by name any more but said he could understand why. I gently explained that she loved him all the same and perhaps he could give her time but not give up on her. He appeared understanding and agreeable.
H then told me that one of my brothers had sent him some family photos and we talked about my gorgeous nephew and other general family chat. He seemed genuinely touched to have received the photos. (In May he had dinner with another B and SIL who were visiting from out of town.)
I had to then leave as I was reading at church.
Until next time,
Take care and thanks again ladies,
C
When my daughter found out about her first H's A, she left him and came home. I was so hurt b/c we had taken him in our heart as if he were a son. So, I feel that your mother is not only angry at her SIL, but hurt as well. That first D for my daughter was like a death in our family. I'm glad you urged your H to try to give your mother time. I don't know what he expected from her when taking in consideration what he's done! I'm glad the conversation went well. I just hope you will not get your hopes up in seeing him "respond" tenderly to your time in the hopsital. After my daughter was an adult and still in the hospital a lot and facing tough times, I remember having a hard time staying there and wanting to take off running. Again the guilt would eat me up b/c I knew she needed me at her side for support and yet I had my own battle going on inside of me that I didn't know how to deal with. I believe men are not judged so harshly for their lack of bedside manner or staying all hours of the day & night like people expect women to do. Society just brushes it off with saying, "Well, that's how men are!"
Anyway, it doesn't make it any better for the patient who is helpless in the situation. She/he has physical problems to deal with, which of course can trigger other things.
I haven't see a lot of posts writting on this very subject of how a couple handles an ongoing health issue in a M, but I think there is certainly a need for it to be addressed. OP, A's, D/S, are all terrible things to deal with when nobody is sick, but it does add to the problems when one is ill. Your parents, of course, will always feel protective of you and it hurts when the man who promised to love in sickness and in health.....runs away.
I read a good article on how we women tend to allow hurts, resentments, bitterness, etc. stockpile in us and then we want to back the truck up and dump everything onto our H's. Man, did that describe me to a Tee! My problem was that I always kept dumping the same cr@p everytime and nothing ever was resolved! The differenced between the sexes are amazing and always will be! So, guess the reason I threw that in was to remind you to continue to move in baby-steps when you talk to him. You did a great job with what you had to present to him. I am so glad he stepped up to volunteer his help.
Later,
Sandi
Oh, yes that's certainly true re men and women at the hospital bedside!
For a long time H never ever asked about my health and didn't even seem to care at all. He has asked and has been supportive (from a distance) only over the past few months.
My health issues are all but over now but I need constant monitoring which can be stressful at those times. The longer I go, the less testing I need. My health is certainly not a day to day issue so I am very lucky. Hopefully this surgery will close the door on that chapter and start a new one.
With regard to my parents-they loved H as a son and they are still hurting. H does understand this and has expressed that he wouldn't blame them if they never spoke to him again.
I read 'Why Women Talk and Men Walk' by Love and Stosny along with Mars and Venus stuff and those books certainly highlighted the m/f differences for me. Should be compulsory reading before marriage!!
Bye now,
C
Been feeling tired and cranky over the past two days. Just want to say to H-well what's happening, either you are part of the family or you're not, stop playing around. Of course I won't but am so, so tempted!
Had quite a long conversation (25 mins) with H last night which went quite well. Although it was mostly about children and business H was initiating and contributing to the convo as well.
C
Been feeling tired and cranky over the past two days. Just want to say to H-well what's happening, either you are part of the family or you're not, stop playing around. Of course I won't but am so, so tempted!
Well, I know I certainly would not have the endurance to put up with a WAS......and "I" nearly was one! According to what others post here on the board, you wouldn't be normal if you didn't have times you felt like this. WAS are very self centered!
Does he seem to be in a pretty good mood when he's around you? Like, does he laugh very often or is he more serious?
Oh yes, he's very self centred! Part of it is that he can never acknowledge my pain because it is opening himself up to more guilt so I learnt a long time ago not to expect any sympathy from him.
He's usually in a good mood and is fairly even natured. In more recent months he initiates conversation and his sense of humour is apparent. He laughs and goads, but mostly children. Will look at me when kids respond. However, he doesn't usually initiate contact except when it suits him; usually weekends. For example, will take my daughter to a game Sat night and then call in for a chat afterwards.
Kids are a good go-between the parents when one doesn't know how to "lighten" the mood. He can play and tease with the kids and it's way of trying to pull you into it.
As a WAS, I think I mentally blocked out how deeply I hurt my H. After spending so much time here on the board, I learned from the other LBH's how bad it is for them and how that hurts their male ego and self-respect more than about anything that could happen. So, I am sure he can't face how much he's brought you pain. He is battling a war between his emotions & brain. He is not out of love with you and never has been......but he "wants" to be so it would be easier for him. I feel that you are slowing inticing him back in a R with you and one part of him wants it, but one part is still fighting it. He thinks his life would be less complicated or he would find more happiness in another R.
I know you probably get tired of people telling you not to give up, but if you will notice, I finally added something to my signature......b/c that is what I think about our R's on earth.
Take care,
Sandi
Sandi, I can see exactly how his interactions with the kids are helpful to him in pulling me in. There's the humour, 'play fighting' and teasing in jest as well as the more intimate times with our daughter curled up beside him. If the kids say something funny he'll look at me at grin.
The crazy thing is that I know he loves and cares for me. I agree wholeheartedly with what you say; he is battling that war between head and heart. Life is easier without me. Without me he doesn't have to face the demons within. He doesn't have to face the family and friends.
His words and outside actions tell the story that he is moving on and doesn't need me. He can be gruff and impatient. He is quick to find fault with me. He accepts my apologies but doen't offer too many of his own. However on the other side, he's still too involved, too helpful, too interested and too caring for someone who has been gone for 2 years! By now I think a truly separate person wouldn't keep in touch except via email to cover the essentials.
I just get so impatient. I am tired of sitting alone at night. I have loads of friends and I love my time with them but it's just not the same as sharing your day with someone special.
It appears that OW is 'on the outer' to some extent. Not trying to get my hopes up here but he seems to be at home or doing something with the kids a lot of the time when you would expect they might be together.
This Friday is our son's formal. Parents are invited to attend for drinks and photos for an hour. H is picking me up and driving us there. That's a step forward!
Sandi, I am certainly not tired of people telling me not to give up. I am strong and I will do it my way but my family and friends all told me to give up on him ages ago. In fact, most would be shocked to think I am db. They would think I am crazy!Sometimes I think I am crazy, too but when I see him I know I don't want life without him.
Btw, I did notice your signature. I remember thinking how appropriate it was for the forum but wondering at what time do you say I tried but I failed.
Thanks again for your insights. They are so powerful; affirming at times and always insightful.
C
Tonight H called me to tell me about a significant work incident. He gave me quite a bit of detail. We then chatted about a few other trivialities. It was another conversation of about 20 mins. I thanked him for calling and he said, "no worries". I finished saying, "have a good day tomorrow" and he replied, "you too." Not a big deal in normal circumstances but in this case this was a BIG DEAL.
H rang to change plan with kids. Left a message so I sent text back. We had a few joking texts back and forth and then I finished. All tiny steps but positive!
Sounds like you're doing great it's slow but great. My sitch is similar in that my H has been gone over 18 months and has OW although not sure whether it started before or after he left.
I'm trying to do same as you slowly but surely. And like you it seems to be going in the right direction. Soooo frustrating though.
Wish you well with the surgery. I think as he's the father of the kids you should rely on him for child support as necessary, but accept that emotional support for you has to come from his own initiative, but take it if offered.
I'm not so sure it is considered complete "failure" if one tried. The point is "trying" b/c it will be certain failue without effort.
I'll check back later. Kind of short on time right now. Hope you have a good day.
Sandi
H has asked D to go to a concert with him. He and OW have been to a few concerts before. He's never asked D before. Where is OW?
Perhaps your H and OW have run their course.
Or maybe he's trying to reconnect with the family - I read somewhere that MLCers do reconnect eventually with family, friend and the wife being last.
I wouldn't ask though, let him tell you if he wants.
And as we know we have no control over their actions. Remain calm as you have done so far you're doing great I think
Bonny, OW is still definitely on the scene. However, she doesn't seem to feature very strongly. They don't seem to do much together and he seems to be otherwise occupied on weekends. They have been together for about 3 years now. I won't ask him about her. I never mention her! (She's not worth my time!!)
There definitely appears to be the attempt to reconnect with family. He has made effort to reconnect with our children, his parents and two of my brothers. Sure there are others I don't know about as well.
Thanks Bonny!
Sounds the same as my h OW - it seems to me that they've got together cos they were both a bit lonely (she left her H the same time as my H left me). She seems to be less around or at least my H is more available to our kids. Hopefully a good thing.
trouble is where to go from here? Like you I'm determined not to be too pushy but it's a hard tightrobe to walk between that and uncaring.
Latest thing I do is if we meet I send a follow up text thanking my H for whatever it was. Had no response so not sure if it's working but I figure I would do that for any other friend who I met up with so why not my H.
Hopefully we're both going in the right direction.
Like the text idea. I have also been very aware of saying thanks any time H does something positive either for the kids or for me. That part seems to be working cos he does do more for me and for the kids. It's a day by day thing!
Today H changed his plans to take S to an appointment to save me having to cancel my appointment. Just a short time ago he would have said ,"I have plans and I can't change them. " Before that it would have been "What do you want me to do about it?"
We have to really focus on the positives, no matter how small, I guess.
Hi Cas
Just catching up. SOunds good, the fact that he is calling you to talk through work issues etc is a definate baby step.
It is weird when they start being more co-operative. I guess it is like when we make changes and the WAS takes time to believe they are real, I guess that is where the no expectations thing comes in.
Hi JCJ,
It's good to hear from you! I have been checking your thread as I have been curious to see how your moving day went.
Yeah, I'm feeling ok about the progress at the moment. Tonight we emailed a few times about our son and it was again light and I had a 'dig' at him in a fun way and he responded in the same manner.
it was again light and I had a 'dig' at him in a fun way and he responded in the same manner.
Hello there. What an interesting journey you're on! So far, sounds so good though.
Humor -- a good sign. Of what, I'm never sure
But I have to believe as long as there's a spark of humor between two people things are not completely over. It speaks to some kind of appreciation of the Other and has a way of ratcheting down the latent tensions. Nicely handled.
I'm feeling quietly happy. H and I went together to a pre-dinner event for our son's formal. On the way H complained of feeling tired and said he needed an early night so would be leaving as soon as the function was over.
It was hot and stuffy in there and we hadn't eaten so we both agreed we needed a drink and a snack. The bar area was packed so we headed up to another area and H stopped outside the restaurant and checked the menu. I just stood while he contemplated and then he asked if I would like to eat there.
We had dinner and then dessert and coffee. I probably talked too much but H was also relaxed and happy and he contributed to the conversation and again there was some humour and light hearted chat. He seemed to enjoy himself and I figured he must have been relaxed to order the dessert and coffee when he was so tired and it was getting late. At dinner he showed me some photos, suggested he would loan me a newly purchased DVD and shared some info about work and his study. It was all very pleasant.
After I came home I sent a text to say, "Thanks for ur company. I enjoyed the night." He replied, "Me 2. Thanks."
Hello Smiley,
Thanks for your thoughts! Yes, my journey has been a long but interesting journey! Tonight, I remembered it was my son's first year at high school when I got sick and here he is in his final year and life is so different. I miss my H but life is good in so many other ways and I have truly grown. It's been a tough way to learn but the lessons have been rich. With H I finally feel I am making progress!
I agree with what you say about humour. It certainly eases the tension and lately we have shared some funny expressions and jokes from long ago which have made us both laugh. It feels good.
C
This coming weekend H is taking D to the concert on Sat and on Sun we have our family celebration for D's birthday. We're going to a restaurant.
After our dinner together the other night I must continue to be happy and light hearted with no expectations. I think this week will be crucial as it is after any time that we seem drawn closer that he usually backs off big time. I will have to be very careful not to get myself into any arguments/conflicts because he may be looking for ways to back off.
We've had some email contact over family stuff and he still appears to be most obliging. He knew I had some medical appointments but he hasn't asked how I got on. I think he knows that if there were any major issues he would be informed and this saves him showing his care by asking.
Hey Cas
JMO - but sometimes they find it hard to ask because they find it hard to deal with the emotions of hearing an answer, they are scared of what the answer may be even though they know that 99% of the time it is fine. It is a WAS thing.
I think you are doing so well, DBing at every opportunity! Remember to be consistant.
Thanks for your thoughts. How's your new place going? Are you set up now?
Julia,
Hmmm, consistency that's an interesting concept I think because I seem to sway a little between being detached and being warm, friendly and upbeat.
On the way to the formal the other night there were a few silences as we drove. I tried to sit back and not think of them as negatives. Before long, I discovered they weren't negatives at all. They were opportunities to allow H to initiate conversation and he did! Always learning, I guess and certainly learning that saying less can very definitely be more!
Cas
guess and certainly learning that saying less can very definitely be more!
Oh yes, that is my big learning from all of this and I have also learnt to listen!
I've noticed that the more I learn to 'shut up' the more I hear what he has to say and the more that I realise I agree with what he says.
It's interesting now that the 'heat' is out of our relationship we are enjoying our conversations more. He's just been texting me. It started with topic about S and then moved to more general stuff. Think we're both feeling more relaxed but I am closing the conversations we have just so I don't look too anxious.
It's not so easy being a good listener, is it? I've seen people who you could tell were not really listening to what you had to say and see their minds thinking of the next thing "they" were going to say!
Go with the flow, if he is happy texting then text. DOn't close for the sake of it. I really don't think it will look like pursuing or anxious. I doubt you are coming across like that in your texts. Relaxed is good
Sandi, I really think I've been guilty of that one! I have been trying for a while to really listen before I think of the next thing to say.
I'm feeling pretty good about the progress we are making now. The dinner the other night made me realise that we have lots in common, that we really do have lots to talk about and we were pretty comfortable. I think this dinner was a real breakthrough because it was his decision and it was a pressure free evening but I have to admit patience is almost as big a challenge to me as shutting up!
What wonderful learning I am doing!
I think the texts are relaxed and he keeps responding which is positive. Previously he would take a long time to respond and it would mostly be 'ok' or 'yes' or 'no'. I just don't want him to think I am trying to keep the texts going. that might be the text equivalent of me not shutting up!
I truly believe that working at keeping the atmosphere "relaxed" and if possible...fun, is the secret. I know it's hard to have fun when things are not good in a R, but that's where watching funny movies and things like that can help bring a laugh. However, not talking about the R will help the WAS more than anything. If the S is tensed up b/c of thinking you are going to spring a R talk any moment.....that causes a lot of tension. It's kind of getting their trust that they can relax and enjoy the peace & quite when they are with their LBS.
It is challenging for me not to have a R talk because my natural personality is to be quite task orientated and I like to know what direction I am taking.
However, I haven't even gone close to a R discussion in months and months. It was at dinner the other night that I finally thought I had broken a barrier with him and we had a really enjoyable evening.
You're doing right steps in the right direction. I would be cautious at this stage though - he needs to find a way back to you without losing face.
Reckon I'm a couple of months behind - your comment about text replies being ok, yes, no is exactly what I get.
Hi Bonny,
Good to hear from you. Don't worry, being cautious has been my mode for so long now! I keep thinking about the ways that will best help him to move towards me in the gentlest and most natural way.
Re the texts I also notice that when I need help to take the kids to appointments there were 3 phases-What do you want me to do about it? then I can't, I'm busy and now ok or I have an appointment but I'll see if I can change it. It's good to look back and see the progress.
Cas
H called in to see the kids as they are quite sick. Under doctor advice I have been staying in the kitchen or my bedroom while the kids are in the living room as I have surgery next week and I need to stay well. H said I was getting a bit paranoid. His insensitivity disappointed me, I must admit.
Hey Cas
WAS's can be really insensitive sometimes. They are just no longer in tune with us and we are hyper-sensitive (I speak of myself here!).
It must be hard work with the kids being sick. I hope you are feeling ok about your up-coming surgery.
Hi Julia,
You're right! The selfishness still shocks me sometimes. I guess it's because I see improvements and although I tell myself to have no expectations, I still do. Anyway, he did text me later in the evening and he seemed fine. He does seem keen to keep the status quo.
The kids are great but they are pretty sick, esp s17 who has been ill since sunday. I went to the doctor tonight and got some preventative medication just so I can stay in the best possible condition ready for surgery. I have been waiting for my surgery for 7 months so I don't want to put it off now.
Thanks for asking about my surgery. I'm excited and a bit scared about it! It's the beginning of a whole new phase for me.
Hey Cas
Remember you need to develop a duck’s back. Recognise that he’s being insensitive and move on, try not to obsess (that might be just me). Insensitivity may be his personality – you know best was he like that before? I think that the WAS doesn’t always want to hear about bad things that are happening to us – it makes them feel guilty.
And does it really matter what he says (he probably didn’t consider his words before he spoke), your health is more important. Keep well.
Hi Cas,
Just popped in to see how you're doing. And add my bit (just can't keep my nose out sometimes).
WAS's can be really insensitive sometimes. They are just no longer in tune with us and we are hyper-sensitive (I speak of myself here!).
JCJ - hypersensitive is an understatement. I was told last night (I didn't ask) that my W living with female "friend" is now starting to have fights in public with "friend". WooHoo. Love it.
In my case this looks very positive because my W was depending on "friend" for everything even down to pocket money and cigarettes.
Sorry to digress from your thread. End of ad break.
And now back to normal programing ....
Mac
Hi, Cas!
Thanks for dropping in over at my place. I'm in the middle of packing for a short trip later today so I'll catch myself up on your sitch a bit later.
Cheers!
Dia
Bonny, I think H has always had the tendency to put himself first although he's not generally insensitive.
While he doesn't want me to get sick he is more concerned about his own health. He can't offer to take the kids or help out not because he wouldn't want to help me but because he is concerned he will get sick and he has an important exam coming up. So by saying I'm paranoid it helps his conscience when he doesn't visit the kids or help me out.
Mac, when you make reference to the sensitivity do you think that's a male/female difference or do you think this was just me being super sensitive?
Dia, good to hear from you!
Cas
Lol, I don't think you are the one being paranoid. I think that is projection on his part! Water off a ducks back Cas.
I'm sorry your kids aren't well, that can't be fun. Stay well Cas, lots of vitamins
.
Thanks, Julia. I have preventative medication but no vitamins allowed before surgery.
Today I'm feeling annoyed and I'm about to dump! I have loads to do to get organised for hospital, trying to clean and organise the house and plan for my work tasks to be reassigned as well trying to ensure I stay well and also trying to care for the kids who are both still very sick. They never get sick so this is a shock to us all!
Where is h? There's the occasional text or phone call to the kids and the 5 minute visits (can't stay longer in case he gets ill!!) No calls to me to offer practical assistance by making some soup, going to get groceries etc etc. I know I'm expecting too much from him but I feel cheesed off that I have to take responsibility for it all. Venting only!!
I didn't handle things too well today. i am exhausted and emotional as I try to get ready for hospital and look after my kids who now both have swine flu. I felt pi$$ed with h who seemed to be more concerned with going to the concert. So now ow will be enjoying what was supposed to be my daughter's night out with her dad. I feel that jealousy streak which I haven't felt in such a long time. Ugh!
Hello Cas,
I just read this entire thread.
I am first worried to hear your kids have swine flu, you mentioned that they are never ill so I am sure they will have a speedy recovery from this even though the symptoms seem severe. I am equally worried about your health just days before major surgery. Please take extra precautions around the kids and try not to do too much to wear down your immune system right now.
Your story is so much like mine with your H and his behaviors.
I am and have been DB for a very long time now. I knew right from the get go that standing was for me. Here I am still....
I was using common sense DB techniques before I found this site and read the books.
I have only been on the BB for a little over a year and read the books about one year ago. I had already been in my sitch for about 3 years. One thing I thought as I read DB and DR they didn't seem especially geared to those who have already separated from their spouses. I felt both books offered great advice only it would have all been more helpful with the WAS still at home. For me my H had been gone a long time.
I attribute our success to me. My behaviors towards H. In my sitch I begged and cried and was down right pitiful from day one to about 4 months into the sitch and then I bucked up and started to change. It was my changes that H admits put the D on hold. He claims he watched me like a hawk all the time, he says as time passed he saw the changes and a likeable S emerge, the S he fell in love with years ago.
I maintained and maintained until my changes and the way I treat H became habits. I now am so different from when H left. I know I could never go back.
It is how I greet and treat H consistently that has re-created our friendship and brought us to actually working hard at reconciling our marriage. I see the same teeny tiny baby steps that you see from your H.
I see the just popping in visits. We share laughs now and fun texting...jokes and silly stuff. We eat suppers together a lot as a family. H is doing more and more with son and says he wants to now. H looks at me and smiles and I now see a twinkle in his eye. He calls me regularly and chats about our company and his day and now asks me how mine was. One thing we have done throughout our sitch is ML. Some disagree with this, for us it has literally kept us together. It is getting better and better all the time.
We still do not go out on social activities together. I want that real bad, I will not push for it though. I am glad you two have had some nice evenings together.
I still will not initiate any conversations. I will not visit H. I will not let my guard down. I let H make all contact. I find we have better results when it is H idea. I can see this changing with time. We are becoming closer and if I continue to maintain and H continues to make changes and move towards us it will be better for me.
I am not convinced the OW is out. I have heard they broke up, I am going to wait and watch. I know she is lurking about my shop at last once a week.
I want to serve ultimatums and pour on the pressure like you. We can't. I am wise enough to realize that those will not work. They would be relationship suicide for us. So like you I will hold my words and continue my DB techniques, they seem to be the right choice for us and if it works keep it up.
I will keep posting to you here, we are in a similar place together. Our H seem to be in the same place too. I think we could benefit from going back and forth with the latest updates.
I'm thinking you are on the other side of the pond, so we have about a 6 hour time difference. Keep posting on my thread and I will stay with you here.
You haven't told us what day is surgery day for you, I wish you all the best of luck and am sending my prayers to you that it goes well and with a speedy recovery.
Take care, your new friend,
Sanderika
You have learned by now that frustrations and anger and jealousy are all part of the deal with a MLC H. It is times like this that we have to dig deep into our souls and pull out more strength and courage to maintain than we ever thought possible.
Everyday we grow stronger.
They are still trying our resolve because they don't know what they want or are doing. They are still in a place where it is all about them. They are emerging slowly. It is our patience that will bring them out all the way. Once out we will still have to be good DB's to keep them out of the tunnel.
(((((Hugs)))) Cas, I know right where you are, girlfriend.
PMA, Time and Patience. I always can muster more.....So can you.
Sanderika
Hi Cas
I got the dreaded jealousy over the weekend too. Accept it's part of the sitch, acknowledge it and then move on.
Hope the kids are getting better and that you're keeping well.
Continue to not expect anything but accept any help if it comes. Hope for the best, but expect the worse seems to be my motto in this sitch at the moment. It's generally working and stops me obsessing (well most of the time anyway).
Hello Sanderika,
Thanks so much for sharing your considerable wisdom with me. I agree that out sitch's are very similar and out H's are exhibiting many similar behaviours.
I feel strongly that H and I haven't finished yet although H maintains he just wants to be friends and definitely not my husband. In the meantime, after a very pleasant dinner last Friday which he obviously enjoyed he's now quite distant and removed again.
I think I DB really well but it's when I get tired and emotional that I 'stuff up'.
I look forward to continuing to chat, Sanderika.
My surgery is this coming Thursday so I'll be away from here for a week or even more.
Cas
Hi Bonny,
Good to hear from you! It must have been a jealousy tinged weekend then.
Slowly the kids are improving and I went to the doctor tonight and there is no sign of flu in me. Phew!
I will certainly try to keep your suggestions on board.
Bye for now,
Cas
I'm off to surgery tomorrow. I'm scared and excited at the same time. Keep me in your prayers!
Catch you all later!
Good luck tomorrow I'll be thinking of you. Hope the recovery is swift, the H comes through for you and we get to see you on the Boards imparting your wisdom soon.
Take care
Hello Cas,
So glad you are swine flu free!!!
You will be in my thoughts and prayers over the next several days.
I wish you well during surgery and a very speedy recovery.
(((((hugs)))))
Sanderika
Hi Cas
I was just think it was nearing your surgery. The best of luck, I hope it goes well and you have a swift recovery
Jx
Hi Bonny, Sanderika and JCJ,
Thanks for your supportive messages. I am really appreciative of them. Been super busy getting organised. Think I'm set to go now!
Tonight H phoned but didn't get onto me until the 3rd try. I didn't call him back. In the conversation I had to restrain myself because I did get a little caught up in the fear of the surgery and I did want to say I loved him. However, I didn't.
The conversation was pleasant and there was humour and it was generally very relaxed.
He said he would visit hospital with the kids over the weekend so they can see me (S drives and my parents will be staying with kids and coming up each day so kids definitely have opportunities to see me). He said he would pop in but then leave the kids visiting me because the last thing I needed was too many visitors. I'm thinking the translation there is I will pop in briefly just in case I am uncomfortable with one of the visitors but I'll stay longer if nobody else comes along to make me uncomfortable. What do you think?
He mentioned my parents once again and I feel sure he wants to have contact with them but he's scared of rejection.
He's been super quiet since our recent dinner and I know he's had to retreat after letting himself get too close. However, it's still a step forward cos before he would have had a tantrum or started a fight and now it's just avoidance.
Bye again!
Sounds about right he'll stay if there's no one there to make him feel awkward/guilty. Possibly mention to your parents that they should try and make him feel welcome, he's bound to be nervous to see them. It could go a long way in making him realise that you are not making him out to be 'bad'. If he gets on well with them he's perhaps missing them too? Take this as an opportunity.
My H too retreats once he feels we've had a bit too much fun. Perhaps they then feel bad that they are letting the OW down - hee hee. Perhaps the tables will turn and you will be the OW!
Although to be honest I'd be concentrating on my surgery and not worrying about anyone else at all.
Good luck
I will be praying your surgery goes well, and your H heart will be open during this time. I have been following your post and find you to be a really inspiration in my own sitch. Thank you for being here and sharing your journey.
Hi All,
I'm back. Surgery went well and I am slowly but surely making my way back. Thanks for thoughts and prayers.
H rang twice and came to visit with the kids on the third night and again a few night's later which was D's birthday. The hospital is about an hour's drive away so it did involve some effort. The first visit he was a little quiet but stayed an hour or so and there was no question of him not coming into the room. Fortunately nobody else was there at that time.
H was more involved the second visit and seemed fairly comfortable. He stayed about 1 1/2 hours and bought a cake with him for D. which we shared.
He saw my parents a couple of times and I believe things were polite and cordial but I don't really know too much more.
I sent him a text to say when I was returning home and he replied to say 'ok. great. thanks' No more to report!
cp, thanks for ur positive words. I will read up on ur sitch just as soon as I can muster the energy!!!
Bonny, as always I appreciated ur feedback and it made wonderful sense
Hi Cas,
Glad that things went well. I've been reading up on your sitch and can only say I wish I was as far along as you are.
Bonny says something that really struck a chord in me....
" he needs to find a way back to you without losing face."
Applies to WAW's as well ;(
Keep up the good work. You'll see the results.
All the very best to you and yours.
Mac
Hi Mac,
Just don't forget how long I've been at this!!! Progress has been incredibly slow and still is.
Cas
Hey Cas,
Slow is better than none and MUCH better than reverse
Still think you're doing much better than me (keeping score here)
I'd love to see SOMETHING tangible in my sitch.
Ah well - faith and patience.
Mac
Cas, I'm so pleased that you are back and that things went well. Wishing you a swift recovery!
Hi Cas
Glad you're back and hope that the surgery went well and that you have a quick recovery.
Sounds as if your H sort of came through for you - good that you had a bit of time to talk in the hospital on your own. 1 1/2 hours is a long time talking to someone in hospital I think.
Keep it up
Thanks Mac. Your words helped me to keep things in perspective. Since I came home I haven't heard from H, not even a text to see how I am, although I know he has asked D about me. I know I should have no expectations............
Thanks for your wishes, Julia. I am making progress and I just need to be patient. Today a friend took me to lunch which was a wonderful first excursion and a lovely break from home. It was a lovely day and we sat overlooking a lake........so peaceful.
Bonny, don't forget that the kids were also there so that means H can remain somewhat passive during the visits. Nevertheless, he did join in the conversation a little, especially on the second visit. He is usually the quieter one of the two of us, anyway. The second visit he laughed and joked a lot more. Guess that's cos I was in better form, too. I kept thinking that he wouldn't have come if he didn't want to be there cos there was certainly no need to bring the kids as S drives. Now, I know he will be largely absent. His parents arrive here to visit this week so this could be an interesting time. I am very close with them and until the ow was revealed he was very close with them. However, things have been a little tense since then.
Cas
I stuffed up tonight. H came over to take D and I to a school meeting. He came into the house, sat on the couch to wait and basically ignored me. I kept telling myself to be grateful he was driving us to the meeting. He dropped us at the meeting (which of course he too ideally should have attended.)
He picked us up 25 minutes late. No apologies, no comment. Normally it wouldn't be so bad but of course I'm not really up to standing too long and shouldn't be out in the cold either. He did get out of the car to help me at each end of the journey.
I had sent him an email re S yesterday and I asked if he had responded. I got a mouth full about how busy he is and unfortunately I wasn't too kind in response. Oops Now Ill be given the silent treatment. I am so sick of playing this game where I have to behave perfectly and he can do what he likes!
Feel free to belt me one. What to do now? Do I leave it or initiate an apology? A 180 would be to do nothing. I always fix things cos I hate the tension between us. What do you think?
Cas,
Everyone is allowed to get angry with the other half. The problem is keeping it inside yourself. Hard but has to be done. They see nothing wrong with the way they treat people. All very self centered and absorbed in what is happening in their world.
Grief that sounds so callous.
Don't do a thing. Nothing, Nada. Don't try to fix.
Take the time for yourself - forget Mr Grumpy. Let him have the time to sort out his issues while you look after yourself.
Now if only I would take some of my own advice
((((Cas))))
Mac
Thanks so much Mac. I don't know what's wrong with me at the moment. I feel so teary and emotional. Think it's post surgery blues. I could cry a bucket load of tears for no real reason. I've been like this for a couple of days-feeling teary but not actually crying.
It hurts that H barely even bothers to ask how I am. He asks but the way he asks you feel as though you should answer good or fine with no further explanation and he doesn't ask for any further info either. He's not callous, but just self absorbed. As I said, he opened the car door for me and helped me get in and out the car and gave me his jacket to protect me from the seat belt. In that way he was very caring.
I guess the fact that he was going from here to ow place didn't help either.
Thanks Mac. I am going to take your advice and not make contact and see what happens.
Cas
Sorry I didn’t realize that the kids were there too. Ah well hang on to the positives he didn’t have to come or help you in the car. We have to remember to be realistic too, it can be all too easy to over analyse and see everything as a baby step, when all it is is nothing.
Do you think you’ll see the in-laws, now that could be interesting.
Do nothing particularly if that’s a 180, don’t try to fix sometimes least said soonest mended perhaps.
You’re bound to have days when you feel teary and low, you’ve just had surgery, treat yourself gently and take care.
Chin up girl!!
Hey Bonny,
I will see the in laws for sure. I have a wonderful relationship with them and the kids and I are so looking forward to seeing them. They haven't visited in 2 years.
H has always been close to his parents but when his A was revealed he and his parents stopped speaking for quite a while. They resumed speaking a few months ago but things are still tense. His parents are leaving it to him to initiate contact. He plans on visiting the first afternoon they arrive and taking the kids with him. (according to the kids)
I'm sure the inlaws would love to see us reconcile but they tell me to move on because they say I deserve better. Sometimes I agree!!
Cas
Cas,
No it wasn't the best behaviour by him. The trick (according to Jody) is to reward good behaviour and to ignore and not acknowledge bad. You don't have to be 'nice' when he isn't treating you as he should and have to suck it up.
I would just leave it now, no point revisiting.
Big hugs, I hope the tearyness passes soon. I think you are doing really well!
I have to say that I am beginning to wonder why I keep putting myself through all this!
As you suggest, Julia, I very much work off Jody's idea of rewarding the positive and ignoring the rest and I think that has pretty much got me the moves forward to date. However, I guess I get tired and hurt and after a while I get fed up with it all. He says we should be friends but I suggest we have very different ideas on friendship!
I am thinking that I need to change things a bit. When I see him I always ask how he is and what he's been up to. He might ask, "How are you?" but that's about it. He never asks about my work, health or social activities. If I tell him he responds and appears interested but I don't think he can actually initiate such conversation because he would be appearing too interested. Does this make sense?
I am not going to make contact now and just see what happens.
Cas,
Maybe try mixing it up. Don't ask how he is for awhile. If he asks you, be mysterious... don't give him much detail and leave him wondering what you're up to. If you've been out with friends, you were just out; period. Keep it short and you'll avoid the feeling that he's not interested, and if you usually ask how he is, and then stop, he may be curious why you don't seem to make the small talk anymore.
just a thought...
Thank you mnt_dreams. It's a great thought and I must take on some of these new ideas. I think I am just a little sensitive at the moment which isn't helping and of course, following surgery I'm a little house bound.
Cas
It seems that H is being difficult. It's his pull back routine which I should be used to by now. I need to sit tight cos he'll be back in contact shortly. It does get infuriating, though.
Hi Cas, I hope you are making a good recovery from your surgery, it must be hard dealing with trying to get well and deal with a difficult H at the same time.
Thinking of you.
Oz
Thanks Oz, I've been living with dodgy health and a difficult H for a while now, I guess I'm just used to it. I do know that I get stronger all the time and less affected by his moods. I am resilient!
Cas
Hi Cas
How are you today?
Makes perfect sense, my H never asks although I know he asks the kids what I’m up to, difficult to remain mysterious with that lot. Sort of similar to you, I kept asking how he was etc. and in the main got yes/no/OK type of answers unless it was about work and then he was a bit more forthcoming. So I decided not to ask and I think that’s led him to become even more distant and has created an awkwardness between us.
Pulling back for me has not encouraged him to take the lead at all. Still it’s your H we’re talking about and not mine.
Just a word of warning – try it but watch closely.
Hi Bonny,
I'm going really well. Heading back to see the surgeon tomorrow which is exciting. I hope to lose the white stockings and perhaps even the bandages, although they are no big deal but I would like to check out the surgeon's handiwork. Walking is getting easier and I am looking forward to better sleep now that my wounds are healing. The lack of sleep probably explains my teariness anyway. It's getting boring being at home on my own and I crave some more company but all my friends and family are working people.
Last night's issue with H was so silly because it related to a school form and really wasn't too difficult. I think H was tired and grumpy and was using it as one of his 'pull back' strategies. He text earlier and was not helpful and then emailed a sensible response late tonight. It's annoying but it won't last.
His parents arrive tomorrow. That's exciting!
Like you, I tried pulling back quite seriously early on and it really did not work. He became really distant. I will just experiment but I still think being friendly and affirming works best. I just get grumpy and swear I'll never be nice to him again but I don't really mean it. I'm just too soft where he's concerned.
Hope things are going well for you Bonny
Cas
The stockings are gone!! The bandages came off but were replaced. I feel good :-)
The kids and I went after school to visit H's parents who arrived for a holiday. While there D's phone rang and it was H.
He was calling to see if we would all like to go to dinner at a local restaurant. It was quite enjoyable although H initially seemed to avoid initiating conversation with me.He was quite considerate though, asking if I could manage the walk, asking how my meal was and topping up my glass.
MIL tells me ow is ill at present and is going for some tests. MIL said that's all H said about her.
Yay for the stockings and meal!
Later on, I did wonder if H intended for me to go!
The more of thought of it I don't think H intended me to go to dinner. That would explain why he didn't initiate much conversation. Of course, he was polite and attentive because his parents were there. I quietly asked him later how much I owed for the meal and he insisted on paying so he obviously didn't feel too strongly about my presence.
I have been feeling a bit restless/impatient about things with H lately. I have had success and I don't want to spoil things with my impatience. He has told me before that I need to be more patient. Do I.... 1 keep going as I have, patiently affirming the positives,
2. retreat and go a little dark or
3. issue an invitation?
What do you think?
Wow glad you’ve lost the stockings, it must feel so much better. Hope your recovery continues to go well.
Friendly and affirming is what works for me up to a point and then my H pulls back again. It’s almost as if he’s enjoying my company and then remembers that he shouldn’t be so he becomes distant again. As if he’s made his decision and will stick to it whether it’s right or wrong. Weird eh?
If, and you seem to be saying that it is, affirming is what's working continue to do that for a bit longer. Whilst the in-laws are staying there maybe a few more opportunities to get together and you will get a better idea of whether that approach is working. Should all go well I'd issue an invitation, how inviting the in-laws plus your H for a get together at your house with the kids - that's non threatening I think
As we’re the ones trying to repair the M I think we sometimes over analyse, they probably know nothing of pull back strategies etc and probably don’t care.
Bonny, you're spot on, I am definitely an over analyser.
I had thought of a dinner here and an invitation to all and then he can make the choice.
As with you, friendly and affirming works for me too but there's always the pull back. A friend of mine who is a counsellor (and who I don't usually discuss this with) said that H would be very aware that he chose to leave and get involved with someone else and to save face he would need to remain in the new relationship for sometime otherwise it's saying to others that he stuffed up again. Makes sense doesn't it? With H it appears to me that he doesn't want me but doesn't not want me either. It could change day to day!
Makes perfect sense actually. A friend of ours left his wife for OW and even though he's no happier had stayed in the 'new' R out of convenience and through not losing face more than love. In the meantime he's W had moved on so there was no going back for him.
I suppose that means we have to continue to be patient, not one of my strong points
I really like Bonny's idea. Try it and see... no expectations and all that
Hope you're still on the mend.
I think the H just want the greener grass and can't see that it's not actually any better. Bit sad really, I feel sorry for my H he's missing out on so much and things could be so much simpler, but he seems over complicate everything.
Any thoughts on the invitation?
Invitation issued but he was non commital
Hello Cas,
I just followed up on your sitch since you went to surgery.
First, I am very happy for you that it went really well. I am glad you are on the mend and mobile again....
Your H is pulling back for a variety of reasons, one is fear. Fear that things at home are not really changed and as they appear. I feel they fear it is a smoke screen we are using to seduce them into coming back. Once returned things will revert back to the life they didn't like before they walked out.
Your H also feels a need to save face, the others are right, the MLC mind and ego protects their pride at all cost for some reason, this I still do not understand. I want to understand this. I battle this almost daily like you. Mine is doing it right now.
I believe that the mix of fear and pride are so powerful within themselves that they are guarded and cautious and are reluctant to come back because it would show they made a mistake and are weak.
I do believe that these MLC relationships will die a natural death because they are based on lies and deceit. The grass is definitely not greener and they know it. They are dealing with OW who in reality are a very childish, demanding, controlling and insecure people. Our Hs cannot live with that forever. They come from marriages they won't let go of, IMO because it is us and the way we are they want. Women of strength, honor, values, morals, maturity, respect, forgiveness, love and kindness, etc... We need to protect these qualities in ourselves as these are the qualities that our Hs value in wives.
What they do not realize is they will be more likely to be respected by family and friends if they put an end to the affair and return to the families that love them. In my world there is not one person who likes the OW and believes H is happier with her. I know for a fact that they actually all think H is a jerk and more for doing what he is and especially for so long.
I think it was really good that H made the trips to the hospital to see you. I think you are right that H didn't expect you would be at the dinner. I am sure H is more comfortable around just you than he is around you and other people. It is this way here. Of course the kids are excluded from the other people category.
I just wish they would move one way or another and be done with it all. The emotional toll it has taken is vast. I for one will never be the same again with H or without him.
IMO, stay dark on him. Let him sulk away his troubles on his own in his own lonely corner. If he surfaces and wants to see or talk to you be engaging. This really is his problem and his alone. None of this is your fault. H will deal with it faster if left alone to sort it out.
(((((Cas))))) It's great to have you back and wishes to you that your recovery continues well and speedy.
Sanderika
Hi Cas
Sanderika's the nuts isn't she (do you have that phase it means good btw).
MLC relationships will not last as they are formed generally with people who are not emotionally secure. We have to be patient to outlast them if we choose to do so, and that's our choice remember. As standers for the marriage we choose that path - it's a difficult and frustrating one though.
I agree with Sanderika the H don't yet realise that they will gain more respect from returning and sorting out the M than for walking away. It's a stronger man who can admit his mistakes - not sure that my H is up to it just yet.
I hope that you continue to make good progress re the surgery.
How are things at your end?
Hi Guys,
I'm on my way to a christening so I will post later when I have had time to reflect. Thanks Sanderika and Bonny. You're the best!
Yesterday H took D to the football and as always, called in here on the way home.............this is an example of something that he doesn't need to do. I leave the lights on out the front, and D has her keys and she is 15 but H always walks in with her and makes a point of talking with me. Sometimes it's 5 minutes, other times it can be up to 30 minutes. It's always quite late but he still comes in. Now, on Tuesdays when he takes them to dinner he drops them back and never comes in. He would probably find that hard to justify to S17 (he doesn't go the football with them)
Still not sure what's happening with ow's health except that she is having some tests.
Guys, I have been struggling for a week now. I know I am not moving on and detaching properly with H in my life at present. I don't think I can do this anymore. I either pressure him too much and make myself unhappy in the process or learn to live with it but I am struggling cos ultimately this is allowing him to have a friendship with me on his terms whenever he wants and be with her whenever he wants. I want more than this. I have been at this for two years and I can't do it much more. I am tired and I am sick of being on my own. I was just rude to him and that's not what I wanted but I also think I have to detach completely and let him go. To do this I think I have to tell him so I have a clean break and I allow myself to get on with life. He knows I love him anyway.
hi Cas
Sorry to hear that you're struggling - we all do. I agree that sometimes it does feel like they have it all their way and that's annoying to say the least. Still if you decide that you still want the M, continue to be patient, knowing that you're doing everything possible to achieve that goal. Short term pain, long term gain (hopefully).
As for detaching - what's helped for me is that I can't imagine ever seeing my H naked again, and as for ML, well at the moment, even the thought of it makes me giggle.
Hello Cas,
How were you rude to him?
It's funny this is your post topic today. My girlfriend and I talked on the phone past midnight last night about lots of things and letting go and setting up major boundaries and actual demands on how it now has to be was a big part of our chat.
I need to think about this a bit, my initial thought is DO NOT tell him you are detaching and letting go completely. If this is what you want to do and feel the will to do and believe in your heart and soul you can do, then begin. Do it quietly without the announcement and fanfare.
My first reason not to tell him is simple. If you are not able to accomplish your goal and detach completely any slide back towards the way things are now makes you look weak. It will therefore only validate any thoughts H has that you are still available for whatever he wants to dish out to you, and that you will take it, whenever it suits him. You know the "door mat" and "cake eating" theories. These would come into play at this point. This only serves to give H the edge.
By going dark and detaching completely, you want H to wonder what is going on with Cas. Here is a great chance for you. You have had the surgery and things for you can/will be better. Let H think you are having a new outlook. Work on it all from the place he will notice. By telling him, you are removing the mystery. Mystery is a very good thing to give a MLC H. Think about the past, they don't let us get too far away without the "you can count on it" call or visit where they ask "What have you been doing?" or "So...what are you doing, what's been going on?"
Prior to our latest court date, in my recent mid-night conversation with my H I came right out and told him the "third party" in our marriage HAD TO GO if we were to continue to work on reconciliing. I further told him that I was sick and tired of only getting the tidbits and that I deserved better in my life. I said that I deserved to have someone in my life who wanted to be with me 100% and that I would be better off alone than the way things have been for me over the past four years. I was careful to also tell him that my reasons for thinking this way had nothing to do with my feelings of love for him, I told him I love him with all my heart. It was now all about respect for myself at this point, I was tired of living with disrespect.
He completely agreed with me and understood my point of view and said that he was working on getting the OW out and that he still wanted to work on the marriage.
I feel exactly like you do. I am also very close to the end of my rope with this sitch. I learned a very long time ago to maintain the detachment thing. I don't really recall how I managed. I just made a promise to myself that I would go dark and detach. Each day got a little easier and now it is my way of life towards the sitch. I did not set boundaries. Others here disagree with that method and believe setting boundaries is a must. When I look back I realize that it was the right choice. My H and I would not be friends if I had chosen that method.
I agree how hard this is to sit back and live in his world and he doesn't live in yours. You see we have created a new friendship and it is still more on "his" terms than "ours". I say it that way because to me a friendship is a mutual decision, a friendship is not meant to be one-sided. If we have created a friendship, it would be right that I could also call him to chat a hello, right????? NOPE, not yet.
Since our 7/24 D postponement, I sent H a warm, fuzzy "Happy Birthday" text, no thank you or reply whatsoever from H. I called H to say hello on 8/4 and he answered and was/appeared happy to hear from me. H called me on 8/5 to say hello and we met up for an hour and a half to talk some more, the conversation was all about him, literally. When we parted company it did not feel good for me. I thought the visit went very well and at the same time it was awkward. I called H on 8/11 and left him a hello on cell voice mail. H has never called me back. THIS IS A BACKSLIDE ON H PART FOR SURE. H appears to have retreated right back into the cave.
My friend and I have decided, this is not good, that H got what he wanted in the postponement and is now going to ride it out doing as he pleases until that time comes around again for another postponement - December 4th. These are bad thoughts for me. They are causing me a great deal of turmoil. Almost to the point I could be sick. I did not postpone to live more of the same, I postponed for a new beginning. I will not live out the next few months like I have lived out the last six. I will not and do not have to live with the OW in my life. I have my chance here to now use this last postponement to my advantage. I am working on my strategy and will very soon get my chance to give my .02 cents to H whether he likes it or not.
Enough IS Enough!!!!! He cannot get away with playing this hand of cards forever. One of us needs to start making a choice and living with it. AND, it's not me.......I almost do not care anymore. Puppy told a poster recently this.....When you get to the point you feel "disgust" with your H/sitch....that is when you are done. I have given that comment a lot of thought. He is right.
Take care Cas, hope you are still feeling physically better every day. I know the emotions are a different story. You have come a long way. You and H are friends and that speaks volumns as well.
Sanderika
H and I had a huge argument which was based on him telling a lie. It ended quite horribly and I am at the stage where I want it all to be over. I love him but by having him in my life I am not moving on.
It's really wierd how this process works....
I am no longer desperate to save my marriage. The situation in my world has reached 4 years today that he dropped the bomb.
I just heard thru the grapevine that H was with his OW yesterday and that proves that he is not done with her.
I also love my H. I wonder if I will ever not love him.
It doesn't seem to be about love anymore. It seems more to be about simply what's right and what's wrong.
For me finding the second job to help with me and my son's cost of living has helped me tremendously. I almost feel empowered to really stir things up between me and H once and for all.
I feel the second job was a step in the right direction for moving on. I think I will really like the job. Yes, it has made it harder on me while at the same time it has shown H that I don't need him.
I can't live under this cloud much longer. I am powerless to repair my marriage alone and am down right tired of carrying the burdens and standing.
I do not regret my stand. I simply am starting to realize that H is not doing anuthing except talking. His words are empty. His actions speak loud and clear.
H has not made any valuable, constructive, positive motions towards "us" since the postponement. H has not seen/spoken to his son since 7/25. I am beginning to feel like a fool. For me, if H doesn't want me and the marriage and a family then say so....stop the game and put an end to the deceitful, hurtful, disrespectful actions. I can take it and have been ready for a very long time now.
I am getting my son ready to go to a summer camp for the next week and H doesn't even know about it. He is a very stupid man. His losses are his. I don't even feel sorry for him anymore. Maybe I am coming to the feeling of disgust. This certainly is a disgusting situation. One that in 4 years has not corrected itself, what makes me hang on thinking it ever will.......
Sanderika
Cas, I am lurking and reading. I kind of feel the same as you, I guess you can take back your life and leave the window open a crack. If that is what you want to do.
This is so hard isn't it? Trying to work out what to do for the best. For you.
I hope you are getting better and better each day.
I told him that I was sick and tired of only getting the tidbits and that I deserved better in my life. I said that I deserved to have someone in my life who wanted to be with me 100% and that I would be better off alone than the way things have been for me over the past four years. I was careful to also tell him that my reasons for thinking this way had nothing to do with my feelings of love for him, I told him I love him with all my heart. It was now all about respect for myself at this point, I was tired of living with disrespect.
Hi Sanderika,
Your words above are almost identical to those I spoke of with H. He said he wants no relationship with me except friendship. I said I respected that but it wasn't a friendship anyway; friendship is reciprocal and not just based on what suits one party. I said I had loads of friends and my friendship with him was the only one that had this underlying tension. I said our 'friendship' couldn't continue this way because it was too stressful for me and my well being. This was spoken calmly but he got angry and hung up on me. He rang me later and told me he didn't want to speak to me ever again about anything except the children and that he would be arranging a divorce today etc etc.
I called him today but he won't pick up so I text to say I would not let a stupid argument get in the way of the great progress we have made in the past two years. I understand he wants to ignore me but I won't be doing that to him. It's his choice only.
So, now my plan is to just get on with life and let him get on with his. He will know that it's only him that is stopping us from communicating. It's up to him now. I am really starting to think about what's best for me and hanging on his every word and action is not what's best for me. I can't deal with seeing him all the time and knowing when he is going off with her.
No doubt I love him and the door will never be completely closed but I think I have to leave it to him now. I realise he has to want this and he doesn't think he does. I believe his actions show something else but he won't ever admit to it.
His ow won't work in the long term. He hardly seems to be there with her now. Our kids won't have anything to do with her and the rest of the family have no care for her either so he is really all alone except for her and her family.
Maybe this will give him some time to think because I have always been there for him. I love him but I think I have to learn to love myself more!
I guess my surgery was a turning point and I have to make it all work in my favour now.
I am going away for a couple of days. H checked with D to find out where I was going. Hmmmm......wouldn't a friend just ask?
I want a long term partner and husband not a friend. I have lots of friends. Friends are not there after work or on Saturday nights or in a cold bed. He seems angry because he can't once again have it all his own way. Maybe this is me taking a stand for once and for all! I need to work on my future plans for my house and my holidays and to stop considering him and his needs.
(((Sanderika)))
Cas
Julia, you are the best! You have such a clear head and you will make the best decision. You are young and beautiful. You don't need to remain committed to H unless that's what you really want. You have to give yourself permission to let go if that's what you want. I do too but like you said, it is so difficult. You are in my thoughts
Cas
Hi Cas
I have just had a chance to go through your thread from the start. I so wanted to cry you have gone through so much for so many years.
I hope you enjoy your couple of days away.
(((Cas)))
Oz
Thanks Oz. I have had some challenges and at present I think I am overwhelmingly tired. It has to be about me now, I think. H refuses to speak to me and I've about had enough and I will set up my boundaries.
Cas
Hi Cas
Enjoy your days away, you probably need a break from all the drama your H is causing. Think what you want to do and then do it.
I agree about friendship it's a two way thing, not what we probably have now with our H, which is just about us rolling over and doing what they want. Having said that if you decide you want a friendship at the beginning you may have to be a bit accommodating just so that he learns to trust that by friendship that's what you actually mean rather than it being a plot to get him back.
Yes a friend would just ask, it's not fair to expect the kids to act as go between or to use them a means of finding out about your movements. Consider setting this as a boundary, that if he wants to know something about you he asks directly. this is probably opposite to what Sanderika would do, but it's something to consider. Would this be a 180 for you? You need to decide how important this boundary will be, if you can are happy for him to use the kids in this way then let it go.
One the friendship is re established who knows what the next step will be.
Of course you may decide that you don't want that and want to move towards D. In which case good luck, it may now be time to consult a L and see where you stand financially at least, always best to know the facts about that.
(((((Cas)))))
Have a wonderful couple of days away. Take the time just for you. Leave this all right here. You deserve to be free from these burdens. Enjoy the time.....
Your H asked D where you are going because he is not ready to be free of you and the marriage. He has to keep tabs on you all the time. They have an uncontrollable need to know what we are doing. It's the need to make sure we are still here.
Your H asked D because he apparently felt he could not ask you.
He also knows that D would tell you he asked. It's all part of the game in the MLC mind to hang on to control. My guess is he did not ask you to save face. Afterall, he just got done telling you he never wanted to speak to you again unless it involved the kids. This will blow over and he will talk to you again about the kids and every other thing he needs to discuss.
Keep in mind his ego drives his behaviors. His anger towards you is not permanent. He can throw the tantrum because your words were not agreeable to him and his ideals of his life and his wants. You crossed his path with the truth and they do not want to face the truths. They are capable of facing it, they would rather live in denial of it. When a truth is presented and it presents them with loss of control they spiral in anger.
AND, just as quickly as they can get angry they can also turn a switch and be "Mr. Nice Guy".
If H is able to ask the kids questions about you and they give him answers he wants, he doesn't have to ask you. The kids want to be loyal to you both, they want to be on both sides and not takes sides all at the same time. I think at this point in time the only way to prevent H from asking the kids questions about you is to keep "you" from the kids. Don't involve them. If they have information they will feel obligated to share with whomever asks. To ask them to keep quite is asking them to choose a side. That is not fair.
In my case I have not set boundaries with my H. I also do not tell him everything he wants to know. I also have a 13 year old son who lives with me and sees his Dad rarely. My son IS loyal to me through and through. I do not have to worry about it. My son being a boy is great for me. Boys will not talk at all....sure you get answers, one word answers, almost always without details. Girls on the other hand give every detail and more whether you want it or not. For instance my son's two favorite answers are..."I don't know" and "nothing". He has found a way that either answer fits pretty much every question.
I know my son uses these on H. H has been here before when I have left son alone and H will call me and he will ask where I am like this: "Hey me and J want to know where you are?" OR "Helloooo J wants to know what planet your sitting on right now?" Well I never leave my son alone without telling him where I have gone and how he can reach me. I am very proud of him, he keeps his mouth shut and not get involved.
Cas and Bonny, boundaries should only be set if they can be adhered to 100%. We are not perfect and will most likely fail ourselves if we set them too strict. I rather choose to create or present things in ways that show H I am me, Sanderika, and I am independant. I don't really need boundaries if I am aware of my actions and own my choices. I choose to answer the phone or not. I choose to help H with a project or not. I choose to ML to H or not. I choose to share my whereabouts with H or not.
H has learned here that I am me now. He has learned that our lives are separate and there are not expectations on either side. A friendship is something we definitely have recreated.
We have to get to the point where we are comfortable again with having expectations of each other. Afterall, one of the parts to a friendship is expectation.
This is getting too long....I'll let someone else chime in now...
Take care all....
Sanderika
Hi Sanderika,
H is still not speaking to me! I was speaking to my BF's husband and he asked me to pass on his best to H. I text him and he ignored my message. His threat to have nothing to do with me has apparently not changed!
I agree with you that H did not like what I had to say at all. In fact, I strongly agree that what I said to him really did 'hit him in the face' and he had to move into anger mode because he couldn't really deny it. I had hit him with the truth. So, instead of denying or accepting my words he threw all the divorce threats at me and proceeded to tell me I was crazy. It then became my problem instead of his. Now he has reasserted his power by refusing to speak to me.
H asked D where I was going for the few days. I do tell my kids where I am going and what I am doing but I have never asked them to tell him or not tell him. There's no secrecy......especially since I only go places for work or with family and friends. While I don't set out to tell H everything, I really don't care if he knows where I am going and I would tell him if he asked so I don't think it creates any real pressure for the kids. When H left he had nothing to do with the kids so I spent a great deal of time 'fixing' the problem and talking to the kids about love and forgiveness. I deliberately worked with the kids to move to a position of love for their Dad. I would never ask them to choose one of us over the other.
Sanderika, Thanks so much for your insights. I always find them so helpful and your perspective is most appreciated. I am finding things difficult at the moment so it is heartening to have support.
Cas
I am so sorry Cas that things are not going well with you and your H at the moment. I am thinking of you at this time.
Oz
Cas,
Sorry you are having to put up with that behaviour from him. I'm just trying to think through some solutions.
For him silence is power, you know I have this ongoing thing with my h about him being 'busy'. Jody gave me a few ideas a while ago about how to deal with it. Here are a few phrases she gave me to use...
'I continue to get the feeling that you're too busy for friendship. I understand that right now you don't have a lot of time. I don't want to be another item on your to-do list so if things change, give me a call.'
Or
'I notice that a lot of your emails start with 'I'm sorry'. I don't want the dynamic of our relationship to be this way so I'm going to leave it to you.'
I think in DBing sometimes we let bad behaviour go because we are afraid to address it. But really, what have we got to lose? In fact Jody has never shied away from addressing negative behaviour by my h.
Could you send him a message saying something like.
'Hi H, I know we had some cross words the other day and I am sorry for that. I know that I have enjoyed the family time we have spent together lately as have the kids. If you want to drop over sometime let me know, however I'll leave it with you.'
I don't know, something like that. It just takes away the battle by you saying you know what, it's fine, do whatever you like as I am not bothered. Just takes away the power struggle.
If he responds negatively saying he only wants to communicate about the kids just say 'no problem'. If he feels heard I'm sure he'll start communicating about more than the kids soon. Or of course, he could respond positively.
Thanks Oz. I see that you are putting in an application for a new place. Good luck with that! I see also that you live on the Mornington Peninsula. Lovely!
Hi there Julia,
You are right! Silence is power for him. He does this every time he gets angry and then if I apologise he refuses to accept the apology or does so begrudgingly. The other day the comment was that he was going to get a divorce so he didn't have to deal with me again. I found it quite humorous when I thought about it later given that it was H who invited me to dinner after the formal, it was H who came into the house after the football. If I was so difficult why would you bother?
So thanks for that thought.
Tonight I sent him a brief text just to say thanks for having the kids while I was away. He replied ok.
I loved your suggestions from Jody and appreciate you sharing them with me. I feel I have a couple of ways to go here;
It could be as you suggest:
'Hi H, I know we had some cross words the other day and I am sorry for that. I know that I have enjoyed the family time we have spent together lately as have the kids. If you want to drop over sometime please do, however I'll leave it with you.'
However, I think I need to address the bad behaviour to show that it cannot be an ongoing part of our relationship.
'Hi H, I know we had some cross words the other day and I am sorry for my part in that. I understand that you were angry, however, I would appreciate you calmly talking to me about any issues you may have rather than yelling at me. I am sure you will understand that I cannot accept this behaviour as part of our friendship.
I have really enjoyed the time we have had together recently as have the kids. If you want to drop over sometime please do, however I'll leave it with you.'
I am interested in everyone's feedback.
Cas
I do see what you are saying but... you sound like his mother and if I received that it would get my back up. So, how about something like
'Hi H, I know we had some cross words the other day and I am sorry for that. My hope is that in the future we are able to speak calmly to each other so as to avoid things escalating. I will certainly do my best to play my part in that.
I have really enjoyed the time we have had together recently as have the kids. If you want to drop over sometime please do, however I'll leave it with you.'
I took out your taking reponsibility and hopefully made it a mutual thing rather than assigning blame in any way. I don't know? What do you think?? Feel free to disregard...
My H is too in the habit of throwing a tantrum and then hurling D round. Hasn’t done anything about it yet though. And yes I agree it’s normally when we get too near the truth and make them feel guilty. It’s really their issue not ours. And I also get the silent treatment. Are we sure we’re not married to the same H – lol? Still that’s by the by what to do about it?
Firstly I would be an open and honest about where what I’m doing (but then I did have an EA and need to be honest to regain my H’s trust). If we’re trying to build friendship first we should approach it as if we were approaching a friend – would we keep a friend in the dark? Probably not. There’s no need to thrust what you’re doing on your H however just tell him if he or the kids ask. Although it’s not direct it does sort of keep the communication going.
Think hard about the fight the other day, what could you have done to either prevent it or turn it into a positive conversation. How did it descend into a slanging match? Once you’ve worked out your responsibility you could apologise for that. At this point you could say that you are keen to avoid unpleasant confrontations in the future and hope that you can both work to avoid this re occurring. I wouldn’t say that it’s unacceptable as part of your friendship, at the moment he doesn’t want a friendship with you so won’t care whether you find it acceptable or not.
As for the family time, how do you know that he enjoyed it, did he say so or are you assuming that he did. If you are assuming don’t mention that just say that you and the kids enjoyed it, perhaps say that you hoped he did too.
I think keeping it brief might be best, over long and you run the risk of it turning into a R conversation and thus another row.
Hi to you both,
Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate your thoughts and as yet I am undecided what I should send. I don't want to be his mother by any means but it has reached a stage where I just cannot accept his outbursts and I need to say something. I have tolerated for so long and it cannot continue. We have spoken about it before and he thinks that when he loses his cool I should just understand that he doesn't mean it. It's hurtful and upsetting and I have finally reached a stage where I have to give him fair warning that I won't accept this behaviour anymore. I guess it comes from the addage that you get what you tolerate. I am able to handle the threats of divorce as an outburst of anger but the yelling and swearing at me is just not on. I guess I have come to the stage of recognising that nobody is more important than me and to be treated in this way just because he doesn't like what I have to say is not ok.
I think I am the one who has done all the reflecting and apologising over every issue to date. Even last night we spoke over something for our son and I used the opportunity to apologise. He accepts my apology and then uses the opportunity to reiterate how badly he saw me but never acknowledges his part. Last night I even said that it was both of us and he denied his part, putting the blame squarely on my shoulders. This provides no way forward to seek new understanding.
He would not treat anyone else in this manner and nobody else in my life speaks to me like that. Enough is enough! I guess I am thinking that I have to bank on the positives we have had over the past months which he too has agreed that he has enjoyed and say I want this but not with the risk of his outbursts. If he doesn't agree I have decided that it's too bad, I can't have any further dealings with him.
I think typing this out really does allow some thought clarification.
Thanks,
Cas
I sent H a text about s as we have some things to sort out for him re school. We text back and forward a few times and things seemed quite good. I have a small post op concern which could be my imagination but with tiredness and my vivid imagination I am getting concerned and H suggested I make a doctor's appointment.
Hi there Cas,
I just returned from work and have read through the chats of the day. Here are some of my thoughts.
First I want to tell you my H said all the same things and did all the same things. It was not until about 10 months ago that my H started to feel remorse for his actions and show compassion again for my feelings. That means for the better part of 3 years and 3 months H was a sh*t to me. Not all the time, a lot of the time. More than I deserved for sure.
When you speak to H in an email be very careful. It is said, and I have to agree, an email can come across the wrong way. What in your mind you are typing out seems friendly enough can be taken as absolutely unfriendly, rude or even hurtful to the recipient.
Begin by speaking to H like he is your best friend. If you wouldn't even think to speak it to your best friend definitely don't speak it to H.
My best guess on this one is do not send H an email and confront him of your dislikes at all. I understand your feelings and completely agree with you that you should not have to be spoken to or treated unkindly by H.
H feels completely in the right to do as he pleases right now even if he's rude and unkind and hurtful. It's all about him.
If I were you I would save my comments and actions for the very next time H behaves like this. It seems like the crisis has blown over anyway, even more reason to let this one go.
The next time, perhaps handle H this way:
Use this during his tantrum at some point when he comes up for air.
"H, if you have finished, I first want to say I am sorry you feel this way. Second, I cannot take part in a conversation in which you berate me. I am more than willing to continue this conversation later after you have calmed down. Call me later if this is something you want to do. I have to go for now, goodbye."
Cas, when you speak to H, the others are right...mothering will not work. Just like more scolding will not work. What you are looking for is the happy medium. You want to validate H thoughts and feelings while showing respect for yourself. You also do not want H to think you are closing a door.
You want to come across as direct, keep it simple and short and throw his problems back on him. For him to be so angry with you it is H way of taking his problems out on you. So you give them back to him.
The way your last post sounds, H has possibly forgotten already what happened before or at least for now. That is the MLC mind at work. As long as it is light and friendly, keep it that way.
Definitely reply as to your doctors appointment in ref to the post-op concern. If he cared enough to suggest a new appointment he cares enough to hear the results.
((((Hugs Cas))))
Keep us posted, I hope the concern is nothing but your overimagination....get it checked out just in case, it's worth looking into for sure. You will have piece of mind once you do. If's is a real problem, they can fix it right up before it manifests into something worse.
Sanderika
Hi Sanderika,
Once again, I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts. I found it interesting to hear that you found yourself in a similar situation with your H. These outbursts have reduced in nature and frequency but I do always find it difficult to walk away. I need to remember that this is his power mechanism as is the 'no speaking process'. On reflection I think he reverts to this when he is confronted with truth that he can't deny and he uses it to reassert his power. I guess I have to learn not to strip him of his power in the first place. I had been doing well but think the surgery has been draining both physically and emotionally. I am quite resilient and I think this has really surprised me particularly as the reasons for having surgery were so positive and such a move forward for me.
You are right about email (and texts too)...I think both can be unintentionally hurtful.
I have been speaking to H as a best friend but I didn't keep my cool when he lost it and there was a back slide that I now need to work on recovering. I have apologised for my part and I have expressed my intention to reflect and improve on this. H is still cool towards me but the damage is not beyond repair as he is at least in contact. We have certainly recovered from worse set backs.
While I recognise what you say about dealing with this next time, when H has such an outburst there really is no opportunity to address the problem. He suddenly blows a fuse, refusing to listen to anything I say, hangs up or drives off and refuses to answer his phone. That is why I was wanting to address it now before there is a next time.
H is moving to his new place Saturday. The kids and his parents will help him move. I am thinking of staying out of the way but wondered about providing a cake/sandwiches for them. This could be perceived as pursuing or just a friendly gesture for the family. What do you think?
Interestingly H has made no suggestion as yet to MIL and FIL about seeing ow. I wonder if she even knows they are here.
Once again my thanks for your valued input,
Cas
Will addressing his probelm help him deal with it better the next time he loses his temper? I doubt it, if he's angry he's not going to remember any coversation that you have with him about not losing it is he. I think the best thing to do is if/when it happens again get in first with putting the phone down or walking away - but say that you will resume the conversation once he's calmed down as you can't discuss whatever the issue is whilst he's angry. You must remain calm though.
Is he moving into the new place on his own or with OW? This is a difficult one to answer as we're guessing his reaction, it could be seen as friendly or it could be seen as you 'muscling' in on something that's nothing to do with you. If relations between you aren't too bad at the moment why not send a text in advance offering to provide sandwiches?
You could say: I know that you'll be busy on sat would it help if I give the kids some sandwiches for you all to share for lunch? This may be too mothering though - not sure.
Hi Bonny,
You're right...me being calm is the key.
H has purchased this new place. It's just a few minutes drive away in the same suburb. It's his place and ow is not moving in. Actually, ow wasn't even present when he inspected it prior to purchase. The kids went with him on most property inspections.
I have given H and D slices of home made cake before for their trips to the football and he has seemed pleased. D said he 'fought' her for the bigger piece! I am inclined to think that this is something I could do based on past experience and the fact that there will be a crew with him. I'll be interested to see what the other feedback is. It's funny how little I do without considering it from every possible angle!
I say go for it with the cake and food, your kids are there after all. It's a really nice gesture!
YES, Cas....
Absolutely YES on the food!!!!!
My H, or my kid, has never refused my food. It didn't matter how mad he was at me. In return I always knew he was pleased and very appreciative that I thought enough to supply it. It's also great that your kids and in-laws will be able to enjoy your cooking right along side of H.
They will be so busy and it will be available as each one of them is ready to eat. H moving, he will have everything all boxed up and take out is so expensive, especially for a crowd. Lots of good reasons to do it.
So not to seem too pushy or controlling or pursueing for that matter, pass it on to them all through one of the kids. Make sure the kid knows your thoughts and ideas behind the gesture.
I wouldn't email the plan to H, I would let the kid you want to carry it all know as soon as possible. Simply make sure all is ready first thing in the morning and then stay in the background. You can smile all day knowing you are doing something thoughtful, loving and kind.
OH Yeah.....I would make sandwiches and cake!!!!! I would make sure the favorites were chosen and I would make plenty for seconds.
It's so funny you mentioned H and D fought over a piece of cake. Last fall my son and H fought over a piece of apple pie and to hear them re-tell the story I thought I was going pee my pants we were all laughing so hard.
You have a very good idea for warming up the atmosphere in your sitch. There can only be positives that come from it.
I hear you Cas, it's hard not to think about every angle when it's time for a decision to be made. A lot of it is gut instinct. I think your gut instinct told you this idea was a winner. Now you have received validation from three friends.
Make sure you let us know how it goes. Don't be disappointed if the thank-you from H isn't right away. He will be thankful, trust me.
Let us know what you made....I love food!!!!
Have fun with this one Cas,
(((((Hugs)))))
Sanderika
Ok I was planning on giving it to the kids to take which is what I did with the cake for the football. Like your sitch, the fight over the cake caused lots of laughter and the shared story after was pretty funny from both of them.
Couple of thoughts; I won't email the idea because I know he will say no thanks, you've got enough to do. I won't have any expectations of thanks because I won't get any, especially sending it via the kids.
Thanks for the affirmation guys.
A positive. When it's our kid's birthdays we have had a family dinner with just the 4 of us. We had to cancel D's as both she and S were sick. I emailed H and asked if he was interested in rescheduling and suggested we could perhaps go with his parents while they are here but if not that was fine, too. He emailed back about an hour later to say it was a good idea.
Hi Cas
I am glad things seem to be going okay for you at the moment, certainly some positive action happening which is good to see.
Thinking of you and everyone here.
Oz
As I've mentioned guys, ow is sick at present. One of my friends suggested I contact her and say, " Don't worry ow I'll take care of H while you're sick in just the same way you cared for H when I was ill." Then we both roared laughing knowing I would never contact her in a million years!
Just appealed to my sick sense of humour, Oz. I had thought she might be a little worried cos clearly H's track record following illness is not too good!
Good to maintain a sense of humour, sick or otherwise, I think it makes things easier to deal with sometimes.
LMAO that's so funny. I'm pleased h accepted the birthday invite. To me it just shows that you guys can recover from these instances and that the bonds are stronger than you think.
Hi Cas
Good shout re the lunch, it will be appreciated, whether you know about it or not it another question.
As for the sense of humour I'm liking it, good for the PMA.
Dinner for birthdays - great. Your chance to show how fabulous you are - get a new frock, smile a lot. Let him see what he's missing. Have a great time.
We do the birthday thing too. It occurs to me that our H must realise that they will never be able to do family stuff like that with the OW (my kids wouldn't allow it) sad really
My kids wouldn't allow it either Bonny. I guess they must miss the family time. H always seems to relax and enjoy the occasion
Well I think my food idea just bombed. S had a small issue with H and says he's not going over to help tomorrow so no delivery person and I won't go there uninvited. D says she won't bother going now either cos she has lots of homework. Oh well, could enjoy a nice cake here with the kids.
Yep do that. Although kids change their minds all the time so I’d wait and see what tomorrow brings.
Perhaps a text to wish him well in his new home?
Hi Cas
Enjoy your cake at home with the kids. Mine want nothing to do with H at present, sad because I don't think the WAS really realise what they are throwing away by their actions as they are to wrapped up in their own little me me world.
Oz
That's right Oz. S was in his righte to pull the pin on the moving. H only does things for any of us that suit him.
Today D told me that ow was helping with the move. This is really bothering me because his parents are also helping and H had suggested that H, the kids, his parents and I could all go out to dinner Tuesday night. I feel like he is mixing it all in together and being fair to nobody.
Posting here again so I am not too hasty with my actions. I am feeling quite annoyed because ow and her kids are helping with the move. I can ignore anything that happens with ow so long as she does not take the place our kids should hold. Our kids will have nothing to do with her and they have made this very clear to H right from day 1. I have tried to let them make their own choices in this regard and I try to keep right out of it but I can't help but be hurt on their behalf.
S was going to be there to help but after a minor issue with H the arrangement was changed late last night. D tells me now that H hadn't even invited her to be there today. He also cancelled taking her to the football tonight. (Now we know why) It also explains why she suddenly had lots of homework.
I am cross about this because it was our kids who went with him to look at all the houses and now on moving day they're not part of the picture and they miss an opportunity to be with their grandparents who will be heading back home in a couple of days.
I want to text him to tell him he's a jerk and he's stuffed up with his kids once again but of course I won't.
I am however, feeling that my course of action now is to remain dark.
Feel free to tell me my thinking is all wrong. Please!! I want him to be the wonderful, caring, loving and sensitive husband and father of just a few years ago but quite frankly I can't see that man ever coming back.
Ugh. Feeling sick of this and feeling pi$$ed that he seems to have it all.......
Grumpy Cas
Hi Cas, just having a few minutes break from packing. I am not good with the advice yet as you know, but whatever you do don't react with a text. Not sure what is going dark yet, so can't comment on that one but it is probably best to try and let this all slide as much as it hurts.
They are jerks they just don't see it yet.
Like mine having a great old time this afternoon while I am breaking my back packing, but because I am the better person, I have done his washing and will iron afterwards even though I feel like throwing it all at him.
Oz
Cas - cheer up chuck!
Oz - nice to see you out and about. (Bulldust about "not good at giving advice")
Cas, do not react to any of the nasties. It's not from him it's something from and Alternate Universe. The "thing" is wanting you to bite back. That's how it gets it's jollies. Starve the little bugger.
H hasn't got it all. He hasn't got you (and he knows it) and don't you forget it.
Just work on yourself - do your thing. Enjoy. Shine the love light around. You'll feel better. People will notice. And it'll confuse the heck out of the "enemy". They may think you've flipped for a while but it'll become second nature and you'll be thankful for it.
Keep the faith.
(((((Cas)))))
Mac
Hey Guys,
I did want to text H and tell him he was a jerk putting his kids second to ow but I knew it would be fatal. That was why I came on here to vent instead. Then I went out for a few hours with friends.
The kids came to pick me up and neither were too happy. They said H has gone over to ow's place tonight but that's not what he told his dad. How can he hold his head up high and lie the way he does?
The kids said H and ow were going to have dinner with H's parents tomorrow night. He had suggested that we have dinner with them Tuesday, the night before they leave. It seems a bit warped to me to dine with your parents and g/f and then 2 nights later with your parents and your ex and children. Isn't this weird?
Oz, by going dark I am thinking that my best course of action is to do nothing, make no contact at all and just let him go to see if he bothers making contact with me. I know I feel frustrated and close to the end but I also know this person is not my H and I would wait for the real H to resurface.
Cas
Hi Cas, definitely sounds weird to have two dinners like that, but then as we know they aren't normal in their thinking, wouldn't your H's parents find that a bit uncomfortable as well?
Thanks for clearing up gong dark. I wasn't too sure what it meant. I assume that is what I am doing at the moment with H out all weekend partying, I have not contacted him, but he hasn't contacted me either.
It is hard waiting for the real H to resurface, it is the one thing keeping me going.
Hang in their Cas, I know I am trying to.
Oz
Yes, this is incredibly hard for H's parents. They don't condone his behaviour and they are incredibly loving people but they feel caught because he is their son. They have been very clear with me that they want our relationship to continue as always. I did offer to step back from the family as respect to them so it wouldn't cause any issue but my inlaws were adamant this was not to happen. There has been no real issue to date because he doesn't seem to take her too many places. This is only the second time they have met her.
You are lucky to have supporting loving in laws, mine don't even acknowledge I exist.
It would be very hard for them, they would feel that they have to be nice for his sake but at the same time are maintaining their loyalty to you. He is probably expecting a bit much of them.
Oz
(((((Cas)))))
What an a-hole. Sorry!!!
I now completely understand the changes in the plan where your kids were going to help H move. Kudos to them for backing out!!!!
He needs to understand the OW in the picture is not cool. The kids are not going to want anything to do with her and frankly it's his loss, not theirs. H will eventually see this. One day he will care. This is a definite. He needs to realize things and this one probably stings a bit. This he will keep to himself.
H lies because H is wrong.
Don't confront him on it. It won't be worth your time. It's all about H wants and this is how he apparently wants it. If not he will also own his regrets.
I think you should go dark on him. He doesn't deserve more right now. Let him own his choice.
As far as the "birthday" dinner out next week...this is tough. If it were me, I would plan the dinner excluding H. I would carry on with the dinner including the in-laws because of the fact they are leaving. It would be nice to see them one last time, and your children will agree.
H will have spent the evening before with them. Why should he join your evening. This is a consequence for his choice. He needs to own his choice. This one would be ok to discuss with the kids. They might feel differently.
To make it seem less awkward between you and H, you could exclude the "birthday" part of the dinner, especially if you ALWAYS do birthdays as a family.
The following is my example only.....
You could tell H if you end up having to explain yourself that.... "A "birthday" dinner for ( ) is being planned on (Friday). Giving the circumstances recently this seemed to make sense. If you wish to join us at (insert restaurant name) on (Friday) at (7:00pm) we would love to see you".
Let H make his OWN choice. Let H OWN that choice right or wrong.
He has to start seeing that his actions and behaviors are not going to be without consequence. The kids are already forcing him to see his consequences. You can do the same.
Right now he may seem to not care.....the truth is he really does. This will serve to make him think a little harder. In my sitch, H has told me he thinks about the choices every day. H has told me sometimes he can't stop thinking about it all.
You know Cas, these are only suggestions. It is hard to make the right choice on this one. I think it is an opportunity to put H in the place he has chosen and......that is on the outside looking in. May not be such a bad thing. What have you got to lose!!!
I am now at the point I do what I want as it suits me. I look more and more at every situation like "What have I got to lose".
Fear doesn't stop me anymore. I really don't care if he doesn't like what I am doing. He's not here they are my choices and I own them.
(((((Cas))))) I am confident you will do the right thing on this one. I hope my perspective has helped if even a tiny bit.
Sanderika
H emailed me last night to confirm our family dinner with his parents. I haven't replied.
H will want to have dinner with his parents that night anyway and it is a Tuesday which is his usual night for dinner with the kids. So dinner will go ahead with or without me. However, in this instance I think I should say no and reality is I don't think I want to see him. I will talk to the kids about it and get their perspective before I make a final decision. I will tell my MIL as she has offered to come with me to the surgeon tomorrow so we have an hour long drive alone.
The moving situation and not going to the football told the kids once again that she was more important. Especially when her s was there. In reality though, she's not more important because he seems to 'fit her into the schedule' when it suits him. It's really all about him. The kids and I are not getting a fair deal and my tip is she's not either. We are separated of course, so he needs give me nothing. However, he tries to leave the door open by his regular visits etc. It's all about H. Cake eating!
I think that the time has come for me to be a little quiet and out of contact and just bide my time to see what happens. The reality is that she's available to him and obviously doesn't put too many demands on him and I'm here in the same situation. Two women available so he makes minimal effort with either until he's ready to make a real choice. Reality is that he'll find a 3rd party, anyway. It won't be ow. She is definitely a trade down.
I sure hope he's not increasing his relationship with her, especially now he's chosen to live less than 5 mins from me. Last thing we need is to be bumping into them!
Thanks so much for your perspective on this Sanderika. I came on here this morning looking for your words of wisdom. Thanks a million!! Cas
Oz, my in-laws are the best but I just don't want to put them in a no win situation.
One final thing guys...going dark will be a real 180 for me and I am going to need support. I am a people person. I like to keep contact and this will be a real challenge! Just warning you all!!!
Spoke to D and she says I should still come to dinner Tuesday so will get S's perspective first before I reply to H. The last dinner I made conscious efforts to draw H out. Perhaps I could go along this time and just see how it all flows without trying too hard.
Cas, I am sorry this is all getting a bit difficult and awkward for you, it just isn't fair.
I see what you mean by the cake eating, as I go along all these things get that bit clearer to me.
I like Sanderika's words and thoughts, perhaps you could have a dinner with just you, the kids and your in-laws.
We can only hope that they wake up from all this (hopefully not to late) and work out that what they have been doing is all so wrong.
(((Cas)))
Oz
It's not fair that's for sure but I guess it's up to me now. H knows we get along and he obviously still enjoys my company, otherwise he wouldn't have invited me to dinner after the formal, always drop in after the football or invite me to dinner Tues night. He's been playing it safe....popping in occasionally, dinner occasionally, visits to hospital but no commitment as friend or H. In the past I've said I've had enough but he's insisted we need to be friends, especially cos we have kids to deal with.
In his heart he knows he's stuffed up but fixing it all is just too hard....that's why he threatens divorce and to never see me again and a few days later he's chatting as if nothing has happened. I have to try this new strategy because I am running out of steam.
It is a real 180 so it will be challenging. I am a fix it so now I think have to at least try this
Hi Cas
Sorry to move has been unsetting for you. It sh$t sometimes isn't it.
Once again I can see the similarities with my H - he insists on being friends, but only on his terms.
As for the meal, do you think you can handle it and remain cheerful, happy and calm? If not (don't think I could) perhaps you could be honest and tell him that you're unhappy with him involving OW in your family, it makes it awkward for the kids and the in-laws. How about suggesting that you don't go on tuesday, but reschedule the family meal for when it can be just the four of you. Gives you a chance to regroup your emotions.
The kids should be clear that they would be going out with OW and their grandparents and be able to make their own minds up whether they want to attend. Try not to influence them one way or the other. If you knock the OW to them it could turn against you at some time in the future. That is of course if you H and OW have a future (doubtful).
Good luck, thinking of you.
Hi Bonny,
Tuesday's dinner would just be H, kids and in-laws-no ow so I would be perfectly comfortable and not run by emotion. It would be fine.(Our kids will never accept an invitation anywhere ow is and that's their choice. I don't enter into that. I certainly will never be in the same place as her.)
My concern is that by going to dinner I am saying to H it's ok to play happy family with his parents and ow and then his parents, kids and me.
The flip side is that I go and we have an enjoyable evening and H sees and feels that. I get along very well with his family.
D wants me there and I have yet to discuss with S. I will discuss with MIL tomorrow before I reply to H. I am just confused as to why H has included me!
S says come to dinner. It's a family occasion.
Cas
Would love to help you on this but as you know, I am in no place to give advice at the moment. I just hear that you trust in your MIL and so talking to her tomorrow before replying to H seems like a sage thing to do. You appear to be travelling OK and so I am confident that you will do the right thing ...
Good luck - sorry that I can't be of as much help as the experts but just to let you know that I am thinking of you and wishing you positive vibes. Stay cool - keep DB'ing...!
Thanks Nell. I appreciate your input, regardless of experience. It's all just perceptions. I am trying really hard to be fair but to protect myself a little. I have been a little emotional lately which is not my true self. However, I am feeling stronger today and I feel positive about the week ahead. You're right, my MIL is one of my best friends and I want to protect her and FIL as well.
Cas
Well I gave quite a lot of thought to the moving day situation and I figured that after recent exchanges between H and I he would probably expect me to pass a negative comment on his treatment of the kids. So.....I thought I have to do something different here and so I sent him a brief text wishing him peace and happiness in his new home. He replied thank u. I decided this would be a surprise for him and a positive base for me to pull back...ie not seen to be out of contact because I was annoyed with him. Starting to think dinner could be another positive. H's parents are then gone and there will be no further reason for me to be in contact other than kids/business essentials.
Hey Cas,
It must have 'cost' you so much emotionally to send that text so well done, you!
Perhaps you should go along to the dinner afterall but H's parents surely do not have to be 'gone', as you put it? They are still the kids grandparents and whilst the relationship may be different for you all from now on, you all still have the same objectives in common. They know your situation better than most and the love you share is not going to disappear. I would play it by ear and take your cues as to how it is going ... Good luck!
Hi Cas
What have you decided to do. If there won't be any OW at the dinner I think I would go and show your H the wonderful Cas that you are that he is missing out on.
It would be a shame to miss out on seeing your in-laws.
Oz
Nell, I don't think I was clear enough in my post....when I said my inlaws would be gone, I simply meant they would have gone home by Wed and then I would have no reason to be in touch with H. This would then provide the ideal background for me to pull back a little and leave H to make the contact, if any. My inlaws are the best, my children idolise them and my love for them will mean that they will always be such an important part of my life.
Oz, I am going to dinner. MIL travelled with me to the surgeon today so we talked a lot and she and FIL are happy for me to join the family and are not concerned at all. I will be there, doing my best to shine but my goal is to join in happily without trying to draw H into the conversation...I always enable him in this way and tomorrow I am responsible for me only.
The surgeon's visit went well and all my bandages are off now! I'm back to work next week
I need to have more surgery later in the year and I'm booked in and ready to go! Yay
Cas
Hi Cas
Glad the doc's went OK.
I think the text was a great shout, DB often says to do something surprising.
Go ahead with the meal, it will look churlish if you don't, remember to look your best, be calm, happy, someone that your H will want to spend time with. 
Hi Cas
Just reading along and thinking.
My instinct is to suggest having the dinner at yours. I just feel that shakes it up a little. That way it is different to ow and her fake dinner at h's parents and also a little bit on your terms.
As it is h's birthday, could the kids make dinner?
Just an idea?
I support your idea of darkness for the moment. He needs to start making more of an effort in your relationship.
Interesting............ I forgot to say that i got a text from H today when I was out. He said that he had put mail in my letter box. That means he made a special trip to deliver the letters. Wondering why he didn't just give them to me tomorrow night. I just replied thanks.
I'm feeling more confident that a little retreating is the way to go. I will be polite and friendly but no initiating.
Thanks Bonny. I'll be there and I'll be calm, happy and upbeat. It will be an enjoyable night.
Hi Cas,
First I am happy for you the surgeon says you are mending nicely and took the bandages off. Yeah!!!
I also want to say, I think H wanted to see you thus the reason for delivering the letters in person. I wish you had been home to discover the reason. I am curious now.
I am glad you had the opportunity to have a one on one with MIL.
I am glad you are still close. That helps the DB efforts. It is a huge positive to H that you still care to have a relationship with his folks. My H is always glad to hear of me spending time with his Dad.
I wish you a wonderful evening with your family at the dinner.
I am confident that you will be "spot on" in behavior and appearance. Anxious to see how it goes for all of you.
I think you are making a wise choice and am happy you gave it a great deal of thought, you went with your gut instinct. This usually does not fail us....
I will check back in tomorrow or the next day. Things here are not going all that well. I am going to go dark here and see what happens. I tried to mix in a little initiated friendship by me and it has backfired to the point I am hurt. H is also doing some things I am not sure I can live with. I am not positive he is up to something new, gut is telling me he is. I have begun posting again on my thread. I find it funny that I could not post the positives but I somehow manage to post the crap.
Good luck at the dinner,
Sanderika
Hi Cas
I am glad your trip to the surgeon went well and that you will be able to go back to work soon, but do take it easy and don't push yourself to hard.
I hope the dinner goes well and I am positive you will shine brightly and your H will notice.
Will look forward to the updates on dinner and how things went.
Oz
Sanderika I read about your situation last night but I waited until this morning to post a reply. I think we are in a similar place. Anyway have a read on your thread and I'll keep in touch. We can help each other out here!
Over to me....I post this because my ramblings maybe of some help to you anyway. Some of my thoughts about my sitch
-H loves his kids
-H loves his parents and siblings
-H loves my family and has made efforts to restroe relationships with 2 of my brothers
-H loves and cares for me
-H doesn't want to be with me in a relationship but he doesn't want me out of his life either.............. CAKE EATING
-H made a huge mistake getting involved with OW but he is proud and can't back out now. He cares for her but he knows she's not really 'the one.' I suspect she lives on the crumbs too.
-H enjoys my company and loves the whole family being together
-After positive interactions he has to pull back because he is scared I will pressure for more which he can't give
-When pushed he becomes irrational and then we are back to square 1, so then we have to rebuild the relationship again. That gives him time and space and he is happy again (until the next time)
-H is incredibly self centred and has excuses for everything (mostly too busy)
-Ow is a trade down and I know there would be aspects of his relationship with her and her kids H would find difficult (grooming issues etc as H is meticulous in dress and grooming)
-H blames me for absolutely everything
-H says he doesn't want to be friends/wants a divorce etc etc when annoyed but shortly after will attempt to reiterate that we are friends or 'we'll see where this goes in the long term'....never really letting go and never committing beyond today
I have reflected on me and I think I naturally pursue by my very nature...I am a fix it and I enable him. I deserve more than the crumbs. I love him and he knows that and that is why he really doesn't have to make any decisions or to make any serious attempts to be a friend. He knows I am a good person. He shows he cares but it's all carefully veiled (eg hospital visits to bring the kids who can travel with their grandparents)He has to reach a place where he makes a choice. For starters we can be friends but he has to show by his actions that he is friendship material.
Enough rambling from me!!!
Thanks Oz....On the work front, I can sit at my desk a fair bit so that will help. You'll notice a huge down turn in my db posts next week! My overall recovery time is 12 weeks so I am a quarter of the way there! Gotta go massage those scars ..............
Ok for anyone who's interested.....
1.30pm Tues EST Australia
11.30 am Tues Perth
5.30 am Tues Capetown
4.30 am Tues London
11.30pm Mon NY
8.30pm Mon LA
Father's day is on its way. What to do? I'm thinking nothing
Yes, father's day that's another tricky situation. It is just one after the other. I too am thinking nothing as well, S won't do anything and I am sure D won't either.
so a 180 for father's day..... Previously I have reminded and assisted kids to purchase gifts and asked H if he would like to spend time with the kids on the day. That's why this year I think I should do nothing
Yeah ... we are all here on that one. I have a card (from the cats) but not sure if I should send it ... he would only think that it's emotional blackmail as he did when I sent him a picture message recently. OK for him to send me one though, when I was back in the UK!
Geez, these aliens known not what they do, eh ladies??
Cas - are you in Australia - and if so, are you comfortable enough to say where??
I love the synopsis of your sitch, once again the similarities are uncanny. We do deserve more, how to get it is what’s deluding us at the moment. I’m going for a combination of staying away but being friendly if we have any contact. I’m a fixer too so this course of action (if you can call it that) is frustrating for me. It feels like nothing is moving in either direction.
Father’s Day – leave it for the kids to decide, best not to get involved in the R that they develop with their father. My H took the initiative in his own hands and asked the kids to spend time with him, which I thought at the time was a bit funny. Surely if it’s father’s day the kids should be arranging to do something with the dad not the dad sorting it out – still my H’s got a big ego (only thing bit about him lol). 
Hi Guys....dinner update.
Just before leaving my meeting I got a text from H saying he was still at class and would be late to dinner and to start without him. I asked him to text when he was leaving so we'd know how far away he was. We ordered a drink and by the time our drinks had arrived H was there so not a very long delay.
I was happy with my grooming and ensured I looked as good as I could. I sat at one end of the table and H was on the opposite side at the far end.
H said very little for the entire meal, not just to me but to anyone. He appeared very tired. I told him a story of someone I met today who knew us both and he was fairly disinterested. Probably not anymore interested in any other conversation though.
H paid for dinner and I took cash to pay him and he looked quite shocked and insisted on paying saying we could work it out later. Then we all went up to the gelati shop-yum, yum. We all had a gelati and then after a while we headed off on our seperate ways. He said goodbye and that was it.
H actually text me more words than he spoke!!
I felt quite pleased with the dinner as I enjoyed my evening eventhough H was not an active participant.
Good on you Cas - and how do you feel now?? Proud of yourself, I hope!
I think it was one of those times when I realised he was quiet because he was and it had nothing to do with me.
Hi Cas, good on you, handled well, I would say he was probably deep in thought about the situation he has caused.
Feeling really positive today...there's a big world out there and this year it's all about getting ready for next year when I get back out there. I want to travel more, buy a new house in the next couple of years, to do some study and to entertain more at home. Have to get more organised in the meantime! I realise I have been letting things stand in the way...making excuses and it's been all about H, not me.
Just a random thought....a year ago for the kid's birthdays we all went to dinner, horribly strained events. We split the bill both times. This year birthday dinners and dinner with H's parents h paid and didn't accept my offer. When we went to dinner after S's formal H paid and I gave cash after and he accepted. My translation-dinner for 2 = we'll both pay our way cos this is not a date!
I am so glad you are feeling positive Cas, I love those moments when I feel that way, it is that feeling of empowerment you get from it.
Yes, I think you are right, that is how he probably views it. But having said that today the generations behind us split the bills no matter what the relationship.
Whenever H and I went out even on our anniversary, I always ended up paying as he constantly would leave his wallet at home or in the car and he is still doing it each time we have had lunch or dinner or coffee it is me who pays.
So a report from today.....
Took D to school which made her day-she usually catches a bus. S and I went to do some stuff for him and then we had lunch together. We spent a bit of time at home and then we went to get him a new doona, sheets and cover. He's spring cleaning his room. Yay! Spending time with S is always a wonderful pleasure and when he feels like chatting he can provide some interesting observations.
I love clearing out! I want to do some myself but I can hear the physio in my ear so I'll sit still and do nothing once again! Mentally though, I'm clearing out and planning for next year. Feels good and positive!
Happy, happy (((Cas)))!
Glad that you are feeling positive - it's great whilst you are in that mode. I envy those of you with kids, at the moment. It seems that they can be a blessing or a burden but when the chips are down, they are there by your side.
Cas, you have no profile showing so we don't know anything about your ages and how many kids etc .. pardon me if I have missed that along the way but, as you know, I haven't been coming here for all that long.
Keep up the vibe and will check back later. Did H appreciate his new doona etc ... ?? What was his reaction??
Hoorah for the positive mood, that's the spirit girl. With or without our H by our side there's loads of living to be done. Our M may be over but our lives aren't (my latest mantra).
Keep it up!
My kids are such a blessing to me Nell. I love their company and they both keep me balanced. When i was in hospital their constant love and support was amazing. We've faced quite a lot of challenges over the past 4 years. They are wonderful young adults.
No definitely no purchases for H, another 180 as I'm sure he's surprised I haven't sent him a house warming gift or even a card-the purchases were for S who is 17 (and D is 15). S was so happy with our purchases and I feel so pleased to buy him something because he really is very undemanding.
Sorry Cas - I totally misread that, didn't I? It's all this H talk
I can see now that it was for your S but glad that he got to have a treat anyhow!!
Hi Cas
I can't agree with you more about the kids being a blessing. My D is very close to me but I think as my S has got older he has become more protective of me.
I am sure that you are like me and you look at your kids and are so proud of how they have grown into such well balanced caring individuals.
A very important job well done I say.
Yay, for feeling positive! I'm glad you got some QT with S. Have you made any plans for mext year yet or are you seeing what comes your way?
I guess I'm seeing what comes my way...lots of variables. I have another operation in Nov which is the second stage of the one I've just had. This one will only be 1 1/2-2 hours instead of 5 and a shorter recuperation. We need to have sold our business for me to do anything re a new house and the travel requires me to organise some leave and someone to look after D and run her around. However, I must start to make some definite plans just for me!
Maybe I'll meet you in Singapore for a drink!!
Hello Cas,
Been lurkin' and thinkin' and thinkin' and lurkin'.....
I am happy that the dinner went very well. I agree that H must have been deep in thought....looking at his lovely family and at the same time realizing he walked out on all of them. I wonder if H was feeling a wee bit sorry....If so, good for him!!!!
It's feels very good to spend time with the kids, especially a son and especially when the day goes as well as yours did!!! I really enjoy the times my son and I have a great day. Of course he's 13 and still requires help from me to get around, I hope we always have a special bond.
I love having my son....I wouldn't know what to do without him. I am glad he is a son. He has become the most wonderful, caring, thoughtful, kind, loving person. I feel this life lesson he has had to learn at a very young age will forever teach him the right way to treat loved ones.
He has become "my son". He has had such little contact with H these past 4 years that he really doesn't regard him as a Dad, he just thinks of him as his father and lives without thoughts of him. My son is loyal to me and guarded of me. Hs presence has little place in son's world.
I make sure when H is around son treats him with kindness and respect. I can say that son doesn't love him. I can say that H probably loves son, doesn't show it ever. They are definite strangers to one another. I am fine with it. I didn't cause it. This is another one of those choices H has made and has to own. A very stupid man would neglect and abandon his only son.
OK, convo is turning dark, it should be light and fun.....
I hear you about living the next year for you. I am all about doing the same. I am ready for me..... H can go (insert whatevah you like here)........!!!!!!!!!
Gotta really run for work now.....
(((((Hugs to you all)))))
Sanderika
Yes we should - at Raffles! Check my thread Cas, I need your expert Australian advice
Plans for you sounds like a brilliant plan although I'm sorry you have to have another op.
No, the op is the way forward...it's quite exciting so don't feel sorry for me. My sorry days are well behind me!
I'll be there for that Singapore Sling, that's for sure. It's quite a few years since I went to Raffles but I love the place! (and the drinks are pretty good too!)
I've replied to your thread and hope it's of help.
Sanderika, I've been doing lots and lots of reading and reflecting. I keep thinking that if H isn't pushed to make a decision he will continue to cake eat. He needs to make a final decision. You've given him so much and all he has really done is taken from you....because he can (and I'm thinking of me too as I write this)
Here's to 2010..........we can all meet in some exotic destination!
I definitely second the meeting in an exotic destination.
Day 4 (started counting from when I text him re his new home)
Some changes I need to make at least in the short term
-not cater for H for Christmas. If he wants to have time with the kids he can initiate and organise
-not offer to organise joint gifts. He can initiate or I will do my own separate gifts
-not let him know about friends/family news unless he asks
-no friendly 'btw' texts/emails
-no offers to go to kids things together (eg awards night). I need to just advise when it is on. He will probably want to sit together anyway so let him ask about arrangements
-no discussion about the trivialities of the kids-handle on my own
-no asking for assistance with household tasks-do alone
Question:
I have written thank you notes to the people who visited me in hospital/sent flowers etc. Do I send H a thankyou note? He visited twice including bringing kids up on D's birthday and organising and bringing a cake. Courtesy says yes and it could be an opportunity to confirm that I am happy and just not in contact rather than him thinking my lack of contact is due to me being unhappy/annoyed with him. Flip side-180 would be no thank you
I like your changes in the short term Cas.
I too was wondering about the Christmas side of things even though at this point I don't know where we will be at.
My opinion on the thank you note could be entirely wrong, but I see it as not being necessary to send your H one. To me part of his responsibilities to his kids is to take them to see you and organising a cake is something you do regardless.
I imagine you had already thanked him when he brought the kids to see you and the cake.
Totally agree with Oz, Cas - you don't need to thank your H for visiting you in hospital - that goes with the territory of being M ... like it or not.
It's amazing that we have all started talking about Christmas so soon, isn't it? Guess that it's the next big challenge for us to face and we are getting prepared ... time is our friend.
Day 5
No news to report. Shopping, tidying up and visiting a girl friend.
Cas
Not too bad a day then - at least those activities are not involved in having to stress out.
You OK Cas - despite no news to report? How's your mood/health etc.
Hey Cas,
I vote Singapore as an exotic location (it is to me) for a meet
I love your list of new changes. I would even go so far as to not let h know of the arrangements for the awards. Let him wonder and find out himself or the kids tell him. Let him feel the full weight of his actions in leaving you.
I would say that if you thanked him at the hospital there is no need to thank him now.
Hi Nell,
All is great with me. Health update- I feel a little stronger each day. I can walk fairly well now and I'm much straighter. My scars are healing nicely.
My mood is back to normal ie fairly happy and upbeat. I think it was the surgery that really played around with my emotions and it caught me off guard. As for H I really believe that what I am doing now is the only course of action I can take. I think H was feeling pretty good knowing he had me as a back up plan if it didn't work with ow. I know I'm worth more than being a back up plan. I want the real deal, not to wait for the crumbs.
I read what Gucci said to you and I could apply it to me. I have to let go, relinquish my attempt at control and let it go. It's tough and it's a risk but the way it's going I've made progress but it's been super slow. I'll just test this out and if it doesn't work I can always go back.
Been thinking of 2 couples I know. The first reunited after 3 years. They split, eventually both started dating others and then rekindled their relationship. The 2nd example H had A and W refused to speak to him except for essentials. Divorce. H stayed with Ow for nearly 4 yrs. W met new partner. 4 yrs after separation H text W out of blue to see if they could meet. H wanted to resume R but W was committed to new partner. Both stories involved time and distance, not a pursuing W.
Lessons for me!
I will pop over to see how your day has been Nell
Cas
Hi Cas
You sound great, a good PMA.
Like the plan, think it's probably the only way to go. I'm trying the same, it may not bring our H back but it's definitely better for US, which I've decided is the main thing. Since I've made the decision I feel so much better and happier in myself. We shall see how it pans out. I've reached the deal breaker, any man who thinks it's OK to have an A with my (former) best friend doesn't really deserve me.
Keep it up
Wonderful to hear from you, Julia. I love to hear your perspective and I value your comments! I've also taken on board your idea about not telling him about the awards. For now H won't even notice any difference as he's used to me not contacting too often. I just have to be patient. Ha...not my best quality!
Singapore, eh? So we can get those Singapore Slings. Have you decided where in Oz you will stop?
Let's know your proposed dates for Singapore and Oz when you have them sorted.
(((((Julia)))))
Cas
Yes, and eat peanuts :-) have you been to Raffles? There are peanut shells everywhere! Last time I was visiting my brother out there he spent most of the night chucking peanuts at me and I at him (we were 27 and 37 then - I guess you never grow up!) but I would try and refrain from such behaviour were we to meet you will be relieved to hear
I think I will go to Sydney. It is the easiest and I did love it there last time and always wanted to go back, although the city I have the best time in was Brisbane. Don't get me started on Fraser Island, it is beautiful! I will book it next week so I will let you know dates.
Ahhh, patience. There is that word again. Don't you just hate it! Grrrrrrr! It seems we are all going cold turkey together so it that is lucky. Oh, and thank you for your kind words. Iam pleased I can help in some small way.
Hey Cas - talk about learn from the Master - you certainly have this PMA thing in check, don't you?!! Well done - now keep it going.
Evidently, lots can be said on this board but lots can't and I don't know what surgery you have had. If it's of the 'lady' kind, that can really tip your emotions upside down and that, on top of the sitch, makes life an even more uphill struggle - so you are doing well my friend. Even the anaesthetic is a big pulling around so you should be giving yourself a well deserved pat on the back!! (this is where you say "Yes Nursey")!
Yes, I think that Gucci has come up with some wise words and thinking on them last night, I had a better sleep. It really helped that my girlfriend from back home rang too - first time in 4 years but we had almost 2 hours on the phone, which was just awesome. I got to verbalise instead of type the words that had been going through my mind and I slept so much better. Today I have woken with PMA but as always, I know that it won't last!
I think that you just have to do what feels right and what you believe in . I think that you have been looking in to the 2 couples that you mentioned and seeing if there is any predictor for you? No matter really, what you did come up with was an answer and that was that to be a pursuing W does not work.
Lessons for us all!!
Glad that you are going OK today and I shall pop by later. Best go update my journal and go see if Oz is around ... worried so much about her yesterday ... how tough would that have been for her??
Later (((Cas)))
Hi Guys,
Been a super busy day and I'm exhausted. Thanks for posting. I will reply tomorrow. I need sleep!
Take care,
Cas
As long as your super busy day and exhaustion was all about you, then I'm sure that you can be forgiven for not replying tonight!!
Onya girl .. sleep the sleep of the sleepy things and we look forward to having you back, tomorrow
Another long day at D's swimming. My 180 was that I did not text H any swimming results as I usually do. He will now have an indication that something is different.
Kids invited to H's for dinner. S went and D declined. Now I have to get organised for dinner and work tomorrow.
Julia, yes I've been to Raffles and sat amongst the peanut shells-thought they might be gone these days with the high incidence of nut allergies! Does your brother live in Singapore?
I want to travel soon and I wouldn't care where I visit but I think Japan is really the highest on my list.
Are you travelling alone Julia? I don't think I could do that...I love my own company for a day and that's about all I can manage. Solo travel...hmmm big 180
Best go, will try to check in later
Cas
Cas - what's a tram flap, as you wrote on my post?
Hi Nell,
Posting to you here to tell you that I can't post on your thread. The only option is notify. Have I stuffed up here?
Cas
Spoke to close friend who was catching up on my past week. I told her I argued with H (my post #1820061 - Mon Aug 17 2009 10:39 AM) at time in laws were staying. Friend was interested that H hadn't had ow visit inlaws for 10 days and then following our argument and s's refusal to help with move ow appears for the move and for dinner with inlaws next day. In my argument with H he told me he was 'in a relationship' so he had no time for me. My friend thinks H then had to prove a point to me about his relationship and that was why ow was then invited to help move and to have dinner. Interesting perspective. She also thinks nc is perfect now.
Hi Cas
Good luck going back to work, just take it easy the first few days though.
I think you are being very strong having nc with your H that takes great strength of mind.
I myself have gone a bit backward as keeping up DBing the past few days has been pretty much impossible.
Enjoy planning your holiday too, that is always such fun. I even just love looking at brochures. I have never travelled apart from Fiji.
(((Cas)))
Hi Cas - not sure what's happening with you not being able to post to my thread. Will go look ... silly question but you were logged in, were you? I know that it caught me out the other day when I thought that I was but actually was not!
Meanwhile, good luck with returning to work. Just take it easy and don't push yourself. If there's something that you can't do, let your supervisor know.
What are your thoughts in regard your friend thinking that nc is a good option for you now? Are you able to do that - are you ready?
I am on Day 5 of my 'darkness' but it has not raised any response from H yet ... he did not email over the weekend and, although I had asked him last Wednesday to forward a letter (by email) that he had previously written to me as I need it for counselling today, he still has not sent it. I rather think that means he is ashamed of his 'bomb' 'the script' 'his feelings' that were all committed to type face. Either that or he is just in his funk, OR his usual forgetfulness, compounded by his MLC has just plain washed the request away!! 3 good reasons there but all equally frustrating and the same outcome that I don't get what I asked for!
Cas - just wanted to let you know that I have jumped over to here now as my other thread seemed to be locked out:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1828866#Post1828866
Hi Guys,
Enjoyed work but am now exhausted so will organise dinner and head to bed early. I don't cope so well when I get really tired and my emotions take over the rational side so I think I'd better listen to my body!
Cas
Good on ya Cas - do listen to the body ... it is far wiser than the brain and especially more superior than the heart!
Did it go OK, even though you are exhausted? Do people at work know of your sitch, or is that another burden to have to keep that a secret?
Talk tomorrow .. sleep a restful and restorative sleep
Day 8....
Qn from Cas
Email from H tonight asking if I have any obsolete furniture.
Guess I have a few options
1. Look around and see what I could give him (I would have done this in the past)
2. Ignore the email
3. Reply, "Sorry I am using it all"
4. Reply, "Sorry I am using it all but when I have spare stuff I'll let you know.
5. Other suggestions?
The kids tell me he is after a bookshelf I have in the garage and also some drawers in the study. Wondering why he didn't ask specifically for those items. They're not expensive items and as he's just bought all new items I'm wondering why he'd want them.
Hi Nell,
Work was great. it's wonderful to be in such a great work place but it was a really busy day.
I have a few friends at work who know H had an affair but I only confide in a couple. I don't want to burn them out with my ongoing sagas! As for the rest (there's 65)I'm not sure what they know except that I am separated
Cas
I like option 2 as my 10 cents worth but then I am dark at the moment - but I thought that you were in nc mode, too??!!
Good option to keep your own counsel. Even though you could trust many, you would soon become tea room gossip and that is a hideously cruel situation ... you are lucky having some workmates to confide in. You spend a long time there and it would be hideous to have to go 8hrs without mentioning it at all.
Rethink on my part!
Maybe you could email back and say "was there anything particular that you were after?" and then decide whether or not you want to give it to him.
I wouldn't be any too quick in answering the email - Wednesday or Thursday would be a 'minimum contact' kind of response time - when YOU are ready to reply. Also, it would give you more time to think of a plan if you decide not to give him the bookshelf and drawers!!
Just thinking of me giving my H half the pantry and dry stores only to be told he didn't like cous-cous and wholemeal spaghetti. We have laughed about it since!
Yes Nell, this is day 8 no contact.
Thanks for your vote for option 2. i will think on it overnight and see what my other advisors have to say!
DO NOT email him.
You need to get respect back from him. It's been 4 years. Are you willing to continue putting your life and happiness on hold for him?
Take the control back. Do not contact him for anything and you'll see what kind of response you get.
Get some self-respect for yourself first and then decide if he deserves to have you.
Yes - best plan. Take the votes, count 'em up and then do what you think is the best overall advice.
How are you going with the nc and is it different to going dark? How do you FEEL in your emotional head and heart - if you are OK to share that here ... ?
What are you doing to motivate yourself in terms of keeping you focused? I am Day 6 tomorrow and still feeling strong but think that I will struggle come day 11 or 12 ... will be good to follow your progress and see who breaks first! (Hope it's H on something more than the furniture issue)!
cas05,
The problem is that you are letting his actions dictate your life. This isn't a game. It's either your changes are real or not. If you are making changes only to "attract" him back, they aren't going to work.
He has to feel and be afraid that you have gotten over him. The only way to do that is to really do so. Let's face it, you haven't been able to control his behavior from Day 1. Yet he has been able to control yours. And he doesn't even live with you any more. Stop being a puppet for his convenience. Live first and ask questions later.
That's what DB is all about. Whatever you tried before, you have to give it a 2 week window. Then if that doesn't work, try something else. You've given this man 4 years of power over you. Do something different.
Stuck, I am really happy you have visited and I'm happy to have your opinion. Thanks. it's also great to have a male perspective.
Stuck, you haven't posted to me before so I just want to clarify that it's been 2 years, not 4. I'm wondering if you're thinking of Sanderika here?!
I am determined not to contact H but if I don't respond to him at all I'm wondering what the fall out effect maybe.
Oh Cas - you have been beaten with the Stuck Stick and he has been studying at the Gucci University ... now you are in trouble girl!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gotta say, those two 'beating up' on me has turned me around this week and I have had so many people comment on how I am coming out of my funk and toughening back up.
Welcome to my world!!
Yeah, I get it Nell but my concern is that if I rub him the wrong way i'll end up with an aggressive sitch which is what i had 12 months ago. If I just give a polite, 1 line response I am polite but not giving anything away...just manners in responding
Hi Cas05,
To me, your problems started when your H started his A. And in the beginning you had mentioned it was 4 years ago in 2005. Once a man (or woman for that matter) crosses that line of infidelity, they have lost all respect for their married partner. If they did, they wouldn't have had the affair in the first place.
At that point is when you should have put your foot down, or rather up his arse.
"I am determined not to contact H but if I don't respond to him at all I'm wondering what the fall out effect maybe."
You see that's the problem right there. Why do you care about what he's going to do? Do you think he's going to leave (did that), do you think he's going to OW (did that as well).
The only thing stopping you from being the confident woman you deserve to be is yourself. For him to tell you that he doesn't want a divorce, yet has the nerve to carry on with other women shows one thing. He has no balls to speak of.
He enjoys you as a "safety net" and feels he can still bully you around because he has done so in the past and you put up with it.
When a child is being bullied at school, what do we tell him? To stand up for yourself. Once that balance of power has shifted, the bully becomes the coward. Before you married him, you were a happy individual. You never NEEDED a man. You had your own goals and life. That's what you need once more.
I see too many women on these threads whose H flaunt their mistresses in front of them and yet "demand" that they not D. Oh please. They are like children in a candy store, demanding that their mother gets them what they want "or else". The children who learn their lessons are the ones who are ignored by their parents.
I hear you Cas - 'someone' who lurks in these posts may say that you are caving in on your nc technique and whilst that is harsh, are you ABSOLUTELY sure that is not what you are doing here? (sorry for pushing you but to be challenged on your thought processes is a 'positive gift' - it should make you question yourself a bit more).
No-one wants to turn things ugly, especially when you have come a long way. You just have to decide what's best for YOU and if you are more comfortable with remaining polite, then do so! It doesn't commit you to anything and I personally don't think that throwing a bit of 'grey' in the mix would hurt.
Be proud of your success over the last 8 days, be polite and then get back on the wagon! What do you think??
This has to stay ALL ABOUT YOU.
Thanks stuck and Nell,
I invite feedback and I accept it as a gift but ultimately the decision has to be with me. My earlier thought was to sleep on it and to consider the other advisors. For now I must get away and get to bed before I'm a grumpy old mother and colleague tomorrow!!
Thanks guys,
Cas
Pleasure Cas - yes, it has to be what you want - and you know what ... this is the good news. The brain actually does repair itself over night and that's where the saying "I'll sleep on it" originates from.
I'm full of those quips and if you want to know where the word "loo" comes from (instead of toilet) I can even tell you that, too!!
Just to put a wry smile on our faces before bed time!
See ya tomorrow - sleep well.
Hey Cas
My instinct says not to answer for now. If he wants something specifically he can ask. It seems like he may be hinting through the kids?
Make him work a little. See what he does next. Just my thoughts.
Hi Cas
Glad work went well, it will take a little while for you to get back into the swing of it and for the tiredness to go. Just make sure you take care of yourself and rest when you can.
I am no expert here and I have fallen down in my DBing this week and need a good hit on the head but I think what Stuck said is true what else can he do as he has already done everything. You need to be strong and stick with what you are doing and remain quiet, I wouldn't answer just yet either because he thinks you will be there for whatever he wants when he wants.
(((Cas)))
Take it easy.
Oz
Thanks all. I haven't responded and will wait it out at least for now. The kids have dinner with him tonight so I'll see if anything comes out there.
Day 9
Nothing to report! I haven't replied and won't at this stage.
Not satisfied that not responding at all is necessarily the right way to go. Letting him have control is to say yes you can have the furniture. Me being in control is to say no you can't have it. (I want to reply and say you've got a cheek asking for it since your last outburst.)
Cas
I know, it is a difficult one isn't it. I'm a little torn. Pretending that you don't know what your d said about the specifics, do you have any to give him?
What are your instincts? To just say no?
Well Cas, actions speak louder than words and you are still speaking volumes in your silence! Good onya. When, and if, you are ready, then you can pull together your response.
Meanwhile, you are doing just great!! Keep going now ... you are leading me by a few days so please keep the bar up so that I have to keep raising my game too!
Nell, it is a little different at the beginning (you are in stage one- reducing negative feelings) to when you are in our sitches further on in. Our h's were so unresponsive for so long and we have worked so hard in building these friendships (stage 2) that it is hard to find the balance as we don't want to go backwards. The thing that I am finding is that it is hard to push through to the next stage where our h's are making active effort with us.
I think you have probably left enough time elapse now Cas. You could try something like
'Lets look at it when you are next over'. And bat it back to him. Let him ask you for the bookshelf and then you can say yes or no.
Hi Cas
As I am not as far along as you in your situation but I like JCJ's last comment on now would be a good time to reply. As someone said to me once, you want to appear in control but not difficult.
Oz
Well said Julia about stage 1 and stage 2. My primary objective was not to initiate contact because I thought he relied on me initiating. I was not out to ignore him or to create extra tension. Have to remember I still need his assistance with the kids so that I can have a life!
I can let it go and when he asks just tell him I was busy and forgot. Then i can ask directly what he wants.
Think I'll let it ride another day and see what happens.
Kids had dinner and nothing to report there.
Cas
Sounds good Cas. My other feeling is that I wouldn't necessarily excuse yourself by saying you forgot either. You don't have to give explanations. Don't forget that the WAS uses the tactic of replying late to texts all the time and it has the effect of driving us mad (or me anyway
). Just something to consider.
But, good that he initiated contact. Be prepared that this subject may drop and another excuse comes up to talk to you.
As someone said to me once, you want to appear in control but not difficult.
Oz
Yes Oz, that's it, exactly.
Sorry I really meant it slipped my mind to reply because I was too busy but I get what you're saying, Julia.
the thing with H is that he usually replies to texts in minutes. Emails usually the same day. It's only when we've just had an argument and he is playing the 'I want no more contact' that he'll let them go unanswered.
I'll be ready for another contact but I'm really expecting him to come back and ask did I get his message?
Oh ok, yup, that seems fair enough then.
P.S - Cas, I am in Sydney from the 9th-12th Jan.
Hi Cas
I’ve been thinking about this. Not to reply at all looks a bit childish (and may be perceived as game playing), but then to give in would allow him to see you as a pushover. Ignore what the kids have told you, if he wants something specific he should ask you directly. What about reply, state that you thought he’d bought everything when he moved out, but ask if he wants anything in particular. Are you sure it’s for him and not for OW or her child? It does seem to be an odd thing to ask for. Sounds from what the kids said it’s nothing of value so probably not worth getting in a lather about.
My view is that if it’s not important there’s no need to sweat over it. Is he going to want to spend more time with you if you make a big deal and fuss about every little thing? 
Thanks Bonny. I think that's some of what I have been saying in my earlier posts. For me it's about me not making contact but repsonding politely if contact is made. If I never reply then that's what I'll get in return. And I've been there and don't want to go there again!
Hey Cas
I think that there are some valid points above - particularly, I understand what JCJ is saying about Stages 1 and 2, which has helped me to understand that we are all at different stages, even though we are trying to help our buddies as best we can!
Anyway, just popped in to say hi and see how you were going!
Day 10
Nothing to report. Adjusting to work is challenging...getting tired. have to pull back a little. Developing a sore throat. Oh no. Haven't replied and don't feel the urgency to but think I will over the weekend just to be polite.
Cas
Make sure you take it easy Cas, it takes time to adjust to being back at work and you don't want to overdo it and get sick, so take extra care of yourself.
(((Cas)))
Hi Cas
Do watch out for yourself ... people often get sick after returning to work as they have become desensitised to the bugs that they live with routinely at work. Your immunity will have taken a bashing lately, I'm sure (what with surgery and stress) so build up a healthy diet or consider some supplements short term - vitamins.
Yes Cas, Nell is right, it happened to me when I went back after the heart surgery, I went back a bit to early and then ended up having to have more time off. So please do really take extra good care of yourself.
Lots of rest and extra time just for you.
(((Cas)))
Cas - where are you????!!! You are very quiet ... are you OK ((hugs))
Hi Nell,
Here I am! Day 12 and still nothing to report. Kids met with H last night and S said he was in fine form...all happy and over the conflict he had with S. It's like he completely loses it and then everything is ok again.
Been quiet cos I was feeling a little unwell with a sore throat and cough....coughing not too easy with a hip to hip abdo wound! Bit sore today. No work today at my bosses insistence. S has got me 'Slumdog Millionaire' to watch which I had intended on seeing so long ago but just never got around to it.
Day 12 eh ..? Well done you. I know how difficult it is but you are doing a grand job!!
Sorry that you are feeling crook ... little tip with the coughing. Get a cushion and hold it over your abdo, press down on it (as much as you can bare) when you need to cough. Should help a bit.
Good that your boss is sensible and enforced a day at home - sounds like you need it! Make sure that you take a cushion with you, to work too!!
Keep going Cas - you are in my sights and I am anxious to know what happens next.
Thanks for the cushion tip....I did use a 'cough pillow' in hospital and they made you cough...now that was painful. Current coughing just makes me sore but not excrutiating, thankfully.
Nell, I have found the no contact relatively easy. However, it's easy while nothing out of the ordinary is happening.
I could relate to you wanting to contact H re the interview. It's part of you wanting to be affirmed by him as it has been in the past. It really is best that you don't. It will be great for you to score a job. You would then be more independent, giving H even less control over you.
I have been quite dependant on H in many ways and he has helped me quite a lot but I am now working to become more independent and less reliant on him. Father's Day this Sunday and I don't know what kids have organised, if anything. That's a 180 for me!
I hear you Cas. You are undoubtedly right but I am struggling so badly. If we had kids I think that things would be different. If I had a social support network, things would be different. I am here, practically on my own - that's what makes it different for me - and he knows it.
H says that he feels the same way in that he has no friends an no-one to talk to. I have offered to talk to him about what it is that troubles him but he says "you won't want to talk about my issues" - from that, I mean that his issues are with ow and her baggage - and her living so far away. No, I can offer no sympathy on that one but it's crossed my mind if I should validate his feelings and say "it's OK, you can talk to me about it" - whatever it costs emotionally. It might earn me big points but I don't think that he would do it for a moment and also, I don't think that I would cope with the conversation at all.
Fathers Day - huh! I got that one wrong and thought it was last week! I therefore hid his card inside a box that he was taking from the house with him ... he must have thought that I have completely lost it!! Ah well.
Really struggling here today. Look like hell and leaving for the interview in twenty minutes. Sorry, didn't mean to hijack your thread!!
Hi Cas
Glad your boss made you have the day off, I have a great boss as well, which makes it so much easier when you aren't well.
Make sure you take care, lots of rest and lots of DVD's.
((((((Cas))))))
Oz
My boss is a wonderful lady Oz. She started when I came back to work from sick leave in 2006 and she has been such a wonderful support to me. I feel incredibly blessed to work with her.
What a lovely thing to say - wouldn't we all like that said about us?
Hi Cas
I hope you are feeling okay tonight and I hope you had a nice restful day. Make sure you keep resting on the weekend too.
((((Cas))))
Hi Oz,
Feling better today....I did cough lots and lots last night so I am pretty sore today... that annoying tickle.... I have a pretty free weekend so am looking forward to more resting. Wouldn't mind going to a movie but it looks like a miserable day so might just stay at home. D needs to go the library and to work on her assignment so I'll help her, do some baking and watch a DVD. I think I also need to make some more definite goals for 2010.
Enjoy reading on your balcony
Cas
Hey Cas - are you taking any cough medicine? If so, add about 50mls of boiling water to it, before drinking. It really helps!
I did laugh Nell when I read of the boiling water....50mls should about burn the throat out and then there'd definitely be no tickle left
Thanks, I will try that tonight
No my friend! What you need to make that happen is some chilli vodka which has been 'marinating' for three years ... now that DOES work!!
Day 13
Think I am dealing with some new stuff now. I am quite happy in my detachment and realise it is a step towards my next phase in life. Actually I am happier than I thought I would be.
I've read so many posts to get my head around detachment issues and I can see how much I was enabling H and allowing him to cake eat. H has really been having the best of both worlds.
Now my thoughts move on. I will continue to remain silent and see what comes of it..........however, I am caught with two situations in mind....Dia has had such success, showing incredible patience and fortitude, not to mention creative dbing. In her sitch she has slowly but surely looked at ways to move closer to H. On the other hand Gucci through many others has indicated that when signs of moving on are shown H's have suddenly shown a renewed interest.
I wonder if I need another DB coaching session for clarification here....
I made progress and H and I were enjoying much more than we had in months but I think my impatience killed that off. I still think I can rekindle that if and when I need to.
However, my other option is to bring it to a head and start to take steps to wrap it all up. This would be totally unexpected in H's eyes as usually I'm a procrastinator and up until now I've said if you want to do that then I won't stop you but I won't file myself. We still have business interests which stand in the way which could have a big impact but perhaps I could initiate discussions??? Beyond divorce is a whole, new life which I am looking forward to. I like to think H is part of it but maybe I am deluding myself.
Either way H is not a friend as he claims and anyway it's not a friend I need. My thoughts for today and definitely subject to change at a moment's notice!! End of reflection!!!
Oh, some deep reflection there Cas but good on you. You are sounding so content and peaceful within your being.
I must go read more of Dia's thread to see if I can pick anything up that may be useful to me.
Too right - we don't need to make a friend out of our Hs. What we(almost said need but that's not right), what we WANT is our H's back and for us all to have learned from the experience - with stronger W's as a bonus!
If you were asked for your top three tips, what would you say?
I'm not sure about tips Nell. i'm not the person to model off that's for sure........
you can't have a rational discussion with someone who is not rational
don't beg, pursue, chase..all most unflattering
don't believe everything H says
Oh Cas - you do yourself an injustice! You seem to be doing so very well - especially as you have had your surgical trauma's to deal with along the way, too. I would say that you are inspirational.
Good on the tips ... they are certainly locked in my brain and I have been adhering to those.
Just like to get some 'sign' from H now to know that what I am doing is worth the agony! I know that it should be about me and not him but I'm sure that you felt that some acknowledgment made you feel just that little bit 'smug', if that's the right word??
It's about the feeling of control coming back to you a bit, just to address the balance and for it not to be all about H ... giving you the choice to display your new self - and to know that he has SEEN what you are now becoming .... for H to feel your detachment and perhaps get a little bit scared ...
Know what I mean or am I just rambling?? !!
Hi Cas
I am facing the same dilemma. I actually brought up divorce with my h once. He hadn't even thought about it! It did open up to the first relationship talk we'd ever had but on the other hand, that was where we had the conversation that we would like to be friends.
The post is second from the bottom. I haven't followed it through as I had the upheaval of moving and really because I still have hopes for the marriage. It is hard to know what to do, so I feel what you are feeling too. There must be a different option to divorce or continued friendship in the unsatisfactory way it is at the moment. Is there a way to shake it up a little?
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1727080&page=8
Nell, you won't get signs from H. I know in our dreams we think H will call and say he's made a terrible mistake and that he's on his way home. Reality check.....it ain't gonna happen that way; we only get that at the cinema. Any movement is oh so gradual because H is super cautious for a whole host of reasons.
Instead you need to get the feedback from you. As you move further and further into control you'll have less need for H's affirmation and be happy with your progress. This is it Nell, this is life and we can't put it on hold just because our H's walked out the door. If you want to move....just do it! The bonus for you is that there is nothing holding you in a set location. You could work all across Australia. What a wonderful opportunity. At least you have a friend in Vic and another in QLD.
I'm staying put for now because of my kids and the fact that the location I really want to move to is further from schools and sports and not on the bus run. Realistically I can't manage that. Additionally it may not be in my financial interests at present. But let me tell you, I am on realestate.com all the time so that when the time is right I'll know the prices and I'll be ready to jump into action.
As a solo you can get a fairly small place to start and the division of assets right now would be in your favour as you don't work. The burden of looking after that place and managing the finances surely must be a great incentive to look elsewhere!
The value of db is we can have our thinking challenged by others. It's good for us all to think outside the square
Thanks for helping me to look outside the square Cas! I certainly hear your message and I know that it's right. It might be one of the first conversations that I do have with H when he comes around ... as I am sure he will before very much longer.
It would be less confronting to let him know that I am thinking of moving interstate than to let him think I am starting to file.
Truth is, it's good for me to think about these things but I am not ready to do anything about either! I have to be honest with my own feelings, even though I read the reality here. I am still on the crawl stage - I don't think that I am up to baby steps yet!!
Did you read JCJ's post that she linked .. oh, if only I could still produce tears they would have been flowing, I tell you!
Hi Cas
You sound very much at peace within yourself and decisions that you are making.
It is a very big step to be happy in yourself and with what your decide to do next.
I am only at the beginning of detachment and I admire those that have become quite adept at it.
I am finding though the loneliness tonight is getting to me, how have you dealt with that Cas? Or is is just something that that you learn to deal with as time goes on.
Hi Julia,
Thanks for the link. I've read it and it was such a positive outcome for you.
I think I need to reflect and think some more before I post a proper repsonse to you.
Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with me once again
Cas
Oz, just remember that I've been at this a long time. I'm certainly not known for my speedy progress! As for the night loneliness, this is still an issue for me and one I have to work at. I try to mentally plan for the evening ahead so that I have tasks to do...read, watch a movie, iron, take kids to dinner, invite others over, take a bath etc etc. To be truthful this is still my biggest hurdle; that and going to weddings alone which I will do once again this month.
So much we have to mentally plan for, day times, night times, it is one constant battle after another.
I always feel so much better once daylight breaks.
Hi Cas
i'm at the same point as you I think. It's been 3 weeks of no contact, it's obvious that my H doesn't give a ...
Thinking about going for a D myself rather than wait. I think the reason my H hasn't done it before is financial rather than emotional. So it's probably in my best financial interest to do it sooner rather than later. If it suited my H financially I think I'd be D by now. There's a lesson in there somewhere, I will do and see a solicitor anyway and find out where I stand.
Me and you are about the same age, if we're to start dating again we'd better get a move before we go grey and our teeth drop out!
Cas: that's the thing isn't it? And yet the wake up can come so suddenly too, and if it does, the damage done to you will take some fixing.
Just dropping by really to add some well wishes, and I live in one of the midly exotic places you mentioned
Hey Bonny, Guess what the gray hair is well and truly in place for me...just lucky I've got a good hairdresser!! Your thoughts on the emotional/financial aspect of divorce are interesting. We only have no fault divorce here and our hold up is our business cos after divorce there's only 12 months for financial settlements. On the last argument H suggested a divorce as he always does when he gets angry and then it blows over. He has said he doesn't want a divorce but I don't know why.
Thanks Deep. I have read your sitch before as I know from your signature.....expecting No. 3 isn't too common on here!! I will go back and have another read and see if I'm on the money with one of the mildly exotic places I have mentioned.
Morning Cas
I hope you are feeling better today and your cough is not bothering you as much.
More rest and contemplation for you today?
Hi Oz,
Cough a bit better so I had an improved sleep. More of the same old same old..... doing nothing. It's funny how during the busy times at work we crave time to do nothing and when it's here we don't really want it! Think it all comes down to the fact that we want choice of when to have it and for how long. I love some R and R but I want to do some more active things than pushing play on the dvd!
You are so right, I have always found that to. I certainly got my wish for more me time but it is hard to fill all that free time up.
I know you would rather being doing some active things, but that will come in time once you are 100% fit and well again and unfortunately we can't rush that, our bodies will heal when they are ready.
Hope your weather is better in Qld than here, I think the rain is going to ruin my plans.
Tell me, did your kids end up getting anything for your H for father's day? Mine didn't, no cards, no present.
Today is a sunny day...looking really nice.
Father's Day- D did say something about buying a joint gift with S but no action on it. They've made no plans to do anything with him either but they could do at the last minute, of course.
Hey Cas - good to hear that your cough is a little better. It's often the anaesthetic that makes this happen for people. It will go.
I'm the opposite way around to you and Oz - I find the days long and lonely where as the evenings I now quite enjoy! I have my routine of making a hot water bottle (it's still cold here!), a milky Horlicks, gathering up the moggies on to their bed blanket with me and then hunkering down to watch all the Foxtel programmes that I have 'taped' (what is the word for taped now that we do it digitally? That's twice this week that has cropped up)!!
The day times I struggle with. No work, no kids and new friends doing their work/own thing. I know that this will improve when I get a job and after my 'ticking off' yesterday from ((JCJ)), I am now giving serious thought to moving interstate ... QLD would be my first choice. I need to do some research first though and I don't think that it would be a bad thing if H got to know about it on the grapevine, if you know what I mean!
So, Father's Day is here - the one we all talked about a few weeks ago and I got it wrong and sent the card last week! Ah well. H didn't respond to the babies anyhow so I know what he thought of that! How did your H respond ... or have the kids just not said anything??
Get lots of rest today .. back to work for you tomorrow?? Did they not do a return to work plan to ease you in more gently than straight back full time?
D rang H this morning and is having dinner with him tonight and staying over but that is a fairly regular Sunday night feature. S is working. Not sure what's happened between H and S today. S won't be home until 8ish. They didn't get cards or a gift for him although it was discussed.
H came by earlier to give D something she needed. I heard him ask her if she was home alone. She said no and that was it. It seems H hasn't even realised yet that I am not in contact! This is something for you Nell....because we are aware of the time since we made contact it doesn't mean they are. and don't forget that you and I have had a lot of idle time on our hands which is thinking, analysing time.....NOT GOOD!! Meantime, they've been busy at work and haven't stopped to realise that they haven't heard from us.
I hear that message Cas and it's good to have it reinforced by you - I had considered that point myself! The analysing time is not our friend!
I have been reading heaps of posts today and I keep on finding this word patience - any idea where I can get a bulk buy of that from??!!
It also struck me, when I was just making a cuppa, that it's after 3pm on Fathers Day and I had not even CONSIDERED sending H a text from the moggies! Guess I'm done with that one!!
How are you SURE that your H hasn't realised that you are not in contact?? That bit confused me slightly though I do understand about the work thing and them not having time to realise... surely when your H comes to the house he must then stop and think "haven't seen or heard from Cas in ages"??
Glad for the kids that they are getting to see H today but marvellous that they decided on no card/gift. Speaks volumes when kids do that, I would have thought!!
Where is everyone today ... it's so quiet??!
H doesn't care too much for gifts Nell so he probably won't be fazed by no gift. (It may give him a reason to consider why the kids did not organise to do something with him though.) The kids said, and they're right, that he buys whatever he wants for himself anyway..if he wants it he goes straight out and gets it. He's always been like that and to be fair he always encouraged me to do the same. (I didn't though-I spend more on me now than ever!)
Re H not realising I haven't been in contact-What I am saying is he's only been to the house twice since I've been out of contact. Once was early afternoon so he would have thought I was at work. The second time was today and he thought I was out. So today would probably have been the first time that he thought, "Gee haven't heard from/seen Cas for a while" and that's 13 days later. Men don't sweat the small stuff like we do and this is our project not theirs. With that in mind and the busy working week H could well be oblivious to my nc for 13 days and just be recognising it now. Hope I explained it better now.
Weekends are usually quieter.
RE the no contact I'm thinking that my H hasn't noticed either or is probably relieved. As you say it's our project not theirs.
Also my H threatens D too when he's angry and then does nothing about it. There must be a reason why they don't want a D, not sure what it is though. They've left, got OW why not go the whole way and D - it doesn't make sense. If I was the one that walked (and I nearly did) I'd want it over and done with and sorted. Maybe as the M wasn't that important to them the D isn't either?
Gotcha! Yes, thanks for the extra info, it has helped me to understand better - and agree!
Like your H, mine buys what he wants and encourages me to do the same - hmm, guess that should be past tense not present.
I'm plotting a good one for my next move though - that will be good for me and really get his goat! Will explain over at my place!
I think that alot of that has to do with where you are Bonny. Here in Aus, the D rules are totally different to the UK.
bonny, a lawyer once said that some men don't want D cos it suits them to say to ow we can't get M cos I'm not D.
Just wondering how long the suggested time for nc is before you give it up as an ineffective strategy and secondly which is better nc or cake eating? The DB coach always said, "choose actions which bring you closer to H." Interesting concept
Just wondering how long the suggested time for nc is before you give it up as an ineffective strategy and secondly which is better nc or cake eating? The DB coach always said, "choose actions which bring you closer to H." Interesting concept
This has been on my mind too Cas.
My H oW is married so that's not the reason.
As for how long do you give no contact before you give up - I've got no idea on this. But when you decide that it's not working what do you do next?
I guess you try to reinitiate contact or you go the divorce route.
That's a very sobering thought.
I'm going to schedule in a meeting with a DB counsellor and that's what I'll be asking.
Won't reinitiating contact look like you're backing down? We know that we would be changing tactics but the H won't see that.
Ok, I checked through some of my notes from my DB coaching sessions and she suggested 3 weeks to trial new strategy but keep in mind that's my case and H had been gone a while then. I did try nc then and it didn't work so coach suggested I reinitiate contact with H which was not difficult. I simply asked him to do me a favour re the kids. She said anger and impatience are my greatets enemies and guess she is right. That's what strikes me about Dia's sitch. She has patiently affirmed and moved slowly, slowly with no expectations-lessons for all. Keep thinking that there's no one right way to do this...........
Hi Cas
No contact is a difficult one in our sitches.
My experience is that last summer, when I started DBing, I went n/c and only let h initiate, which he did every 10 days or so (mostly annoying ones asking if I was ok and could we sell the house!!). Then in Oct/ Nov it went more n/c then in January it reignited a little and has progressed since then to when we sold the house. That period of n/c was necessary because I had been pursuing and doing all the pre-DBing things so showed h I was 'safe' and he didn't feel pressured from me. It also helped me to be detached so I was no longer desperate when h did contact. This is why you are n/c at the moment Nell. It is quite important in the early stages.
However Cas, you are further along. Your h does not view you as pursuing therefore I think you may have gone dark because you were annoyed at the dynamic of the friendship so wanted to shake it up a little. He hasn't reacted as yet. As you say though he may not have realised.
I am thinking, how long has it been? I would give it another week after him realising you were in the house and didn't say hello and see what happens. If nothing happens then we can look at some different strategies for 'coming out of the dark' rather than reacting with divorce - unless that is what you truly want.
There is a thread that JamesJohn wrote about coming out of the dark which is on the solution workshop page. It might be worth reading through that for ideas.
Bonny, I don't think it will look like backing down because h has no idea you are using a strategy on him. So long as you don't have a pursuing reason and do it right it should be fine.
Just my take...
Hi Cas
I don't think they notice when we don't contact either, I know for sure that it wouldn't even occur to my H that I no longer ring, email or anything, they don't think like we do.
I don't know how long you would do it for, doesn't the DR book say 2 weeks minimum before you analyse if something is working or not.
Sorry I missed the other posts before I posted.
Hi Julia,
Your roast sounded yummy!
It's 2 weeks since I made contact with H. It was bothering me a little on the weekend but back at work today and I'm fine again so I'm going to keep at it and I'll reconsider in a week's time. He hasn't contacted me and I don't think he will. He will be busy as he has a very significant exam coming up and if he even thinks I'm deliberately out of touch he will do the same. He is very stubborn so he would outlast me easily. He didn't speak to his parents for months when the A was first revealed. And in addition, he probably couldn't care less if I don't make contact. So, while I'm out of touch I have to work on a few things. To begin it's to do with the house. it all looks ok but it could look smarter. Then it's me as well. I have the health stuff to sort first and then I'm back to gym and I've always wanted to have makeup lessons so I will look into that, too.
You're right I did this because I wanted to change the friendship thing a little with him...tired of him cake-eating but following Dia's sitch and I'm reconsidering that. Perhaps instead of recognising the steps closer we've made I only saw what he wasn't doing for me and how he doesn't contribute very much to the friendship. I need patience!!
On the other hand I am not going to be walked over and I still feel the need to let him know how I feel about the way he spoke to me a few weeks back. It may not score me any points but I would at least be setting a boundary. Won't follow this up until I make a decision abcout making contact.
Perhaps i can manage both....call him down the track and get him back on side and then gently broach the subject.
Had a great day at work..looking forward to another good one tomorrow.
Cas
Hi Cas
Hope work is going okay for you. It will be good when you can get back into the gym, I found once I was given the all clear to go back it was the best thing on earth and has helped enormously during these past couple of months.
It is so hard this cake eating thing, whether to accept it or put a stop to it. For some the decision to stop it works really well but for others to let it happen seems to work wonders too.
Oz
Hi Cas
Just checking in. I'm wondering about the nc thing too ... I need to leave it a while longer but I shall be watching how you go.
For me, it's been an enormous struggle without contacting H ... it feels too final for me, even though I know that at some stage we have to speak about the way forward, the house etc...
Hope that you are doing OK ((Cas)) - catch you soon!
It’s difficult to guage whether the NC strategy is working or not, or even if it’s been noticed. I suppose the thing to consider is whether it’s working for you? Does it improve your PMA? If so then it’s working in some way.
I’m keeping to it for another week or two and then if there’s no movement will reconsider and think what’s next. I'm going to speak to the DB counsellor first
Hi Bonny,
I agree. I think the nc is positive for my PMA at the moment and provides me with some space until I work out what I want to do next. I'm going to keep at it for another week at least. It is still a different strategy for me so I have to give it a shot. After I see the surgeon next week I think I'll have a clearer direction on a few things as well. I want to do some stuff to the house and get some new clothes. think it's good to get this sorted while I'm out of contact.
Think I'll reconsider on a week by week basis. I'll be interested to see what DB coach says to you about it.
Hi Cas
How are you today?
It is good I think if you give your nc another week in order to sort out a few other issues you want to, then review it later. At least that way you give yourself a bit more breathing space with just yourself and your needs to concentrate on.
Hey Cas
I shall be watching. I feel much the same as you really and now that H wants to meet to discuss finances, I almost don't want to see him as it will put me backwards - you know what I mean? I wondered if you felt that way too?
Good luck with the surgeon!
Hi Oz, I am feeling much better today. My voice is quite "husky" still but the sore throat appears to have gone.
Yes Nell, I do know what you mean. I do feel that way. I think this has been like a challenge for me and my competitive side has come out and I'm willing myself to surpass my targets!!!
Enjoy the night, Nell.
Cas
((((Cas))))
Have you tried the whiskey/honey/lemon remedy? It does help. Or as my mother says, maybe it doesn't but if you take enough of it, you won't care.
Morning Cas
Just thought I check in on you and see how you are doing.
(((Cas)))
Dia,
Gotta say, I love your mother's sentiments....I'm onto it!
Hi Oz,
I'm feeling quite a bit better today. Should be ready for a great weekend!
Cas
Hi Cas
I love my weekends Cas, mine start on a Friday as I don't have to go to work, so I get all the mundane house tasks out of the way to leave me free for fun things on the weekend, apart from driving D to and from work.
Hey Oz, I think a 3 day weekend sounds superb! Actually, I have one this weekend as I have the surgeon on Monday
Hey Cas
Just dropping by to say hi. Hope you are feeling better.
Hi Julia,
I'm feeling pretty good at the moment. My health is steadily improving and I think the nc is having a positive effect on me. I am lookinmg forward to making some positive future plans once I am physically able to fully engage life. In the meantime I am organising to have my garden spruced up, the pool cleaned and maintained and the carpets cleaned. Small things that will make a difference to me and encourage me to do more entertaining. I am going to buy a new outdoor setting so we can eat outdoors during summer.
Hey gal, you certainly are GAL'ing!!
Glad that you are improving Cas - you are doing just fine :o)
Morning Cas
3day weekends are the best. It is fantastic news that you are steadily improving. I find when I don't have to see or speak to H when he disappears on weekends, I am more relaxed and happy, so it doesn't surprise me that your nc is having an effect on you. I think it removes some of the stress that this all places on us. Gives some breathing space to really focus on you.
I love getting new things for the house, you are getting an outdoor setting, I am getting a new umbrella and BBQ since the new owners of our old house got our other one.
Tonight H contacted D and invited her to his place for the night. He came to collect her but didn't come in...not so unusual. I am noticing that H is trying to increase the contact with the kids again. He got them both new phones the other day...the very thing he was arguing about with S a few weeks ago. It's interesting
Oz, I'd like a new bbq as ours is really old now. I thought I might get a weber.
Hi Cas
Maybe your H now trying to increase his contact with the kids is leading to him then initiating contact with you. Baby step maybe!
I wouldn't mind one of those gas weber's on the trolley I believe they are quite good. Might go looking next weekend, still have to get my umbrella, found one with solar panels on top and when you open it all the fairy lights come on it it, I liked that one.
Hi Oz,
I think H's increased contact with the kids shows he misses them and that he is quite lonely. He was always a wonderful father. He has a new home with all new furniture all for himself and nobody to share it with really. (OW doesn't come to his place much as she has kids so it's usually him going there.) He has a couple of mates but that's it. None of his family live here.
I doubt H will make contact now. He is much more stubborn than I am and there was a time after the A was revealed that he didn't speak to his parents-months actually. It was his mother who re-initiated contact. I feel quite sure that while I stay silent he will, too.
Is this getting me closer to my goal, though? I have a pretty busy week so it will be easy for me to remain silent this week. I'll reassess next weekend. That will have been a month then.
It's a beautiful day here. Trying to catch up on washing....I'm a little behind as I am reliant on the kids hanging it out; patience required with kids getting it done!
I have a detailed reference to write today and then I'm doing a little retail therapy!
Cas
PS; An after thought
I did try no-contact before when I was talking to db coach and the same thing happened-he stayed right away. She told me to abandon the idea as limited contact on his terms was better than nc. I expressed my annoyance at his cake eating but she wasn't overly concerned (but it's not her living this!! She told me to act as if ow didn't exist. Guess this is what Dia has been doing. I could reinitiate contact and put no pressure on cos I think it's my pressure that causes us problems. Dia has been a fine example of moving forward slowly but surely with no pressure on her H.
The funny thing is that a friend of mine went to a meeting the other day and was asked if H and I were back together. I laughed as here we are in the longest nc period ever! Apparently somebody had seen us together last month and presumed a reconciliation.
Hi Cas
You can honestly only wonder why someone would choose the path of a lonely life such as your H. That is exactly what my H was wanting at the beginning and it something I just can't understand
As long as you are okay within yourself then keep going as you are and review when you feel ready.
We had a hot day yesterday with severe winds, today, no wind but it is raining, not cold though, almost a bit of a tropical feel.
Enjoy your retail therapy, D & I are looking forward to ours.
Hi Cas
Didn't see you extra post.
I think the coach is probably right and if you look at Dia she is a fine example of how treating the OW as non existent can work. The cake eating is a big problem but I guess it is the same thing if you can ignore it and focus on positive things it can work to our advantage.
Dia is inspiring and I admire her in how she handles each and every situation thrown at her.
Hi Cas
Glad that I dropped by this morning and read of your coach's advice re no contact. I think that it's time for me to review my sitch and I may well try to go down the same line.
Keep going Cas!
Hi Nell,
Just remember that this was old advice from months ago. And remember all out sitch's are different. I think you can afford to give your H more time.
More time Cas - how so? As in n/c or minimal and only when he initiates? Sorry, just grasping at straws ... which I know that I should not be doing! I just feel a bit desperate right now, which I also know you will have picked up on.
Nell, I meant just keep doing what you are doing for now.
Oz, yes it must be quite lonely although H was always rather good with his own company. He has taken D out again this afternoon.
I get you Cas. I've just had a new thought and would value your opinion - can you please jump over to my thread to see what you think?
Men do seem much more content with their own company, funnily enough. Glad that your H has taken your daughter out - that's important, I feel.
So I asked Dia for her advice now and I am interested in your feedback as well. A brief summary..... H has ow who is an employee. H occasionally works in the business although was f/time at the commencement of the A. He doesn't live with ow and what I can establish is that he visits/stays over once or twice a week, usually coinciding with his visits to work.
H appears to be very much in selfish mode.
H has always maintained that he wants to be friends. We have maintained open communication with regards to the kids. He has shown lots of positive actions towards me-fixed things around the house, did my tax, drop in visits, family dinners, dinner with me after S's formal, visits to me in hospital, drive us to the airport etc etc. Unfortunately, these acts of service also come with major pull backs and large doses of cake eating along the way.
My problem is that I am impatient and I can keep at it for so long and then I pressure him and he retreats monumentally. Slow learner!
The advice of many has been to have nc and I can see the merit in this and have had nc for 3 weeks. That's fine and I feel better for the space. However, I'm not feeling I am making any progress. Perhaps I am; however, H is particularly stubborn and in reality I cannot see him initiating contact.
So, in reading Dia's progress while I applaud each time there's a step forward in her relationship I also recognise it's been from her thoughtful and considered approach. Her H has simply responded along the way (and great responses, too!!)
So I wonder about your opinion; do I reinitiate contact (I'm sure this will be easy enough), this time being much more patient and give it one last shot or do I maintain the nc? I know that if I reinitiate contact I am going against the Gucci type advice and not forcing him to make a choice but I am also aware that if I take your tact eventually he's going to have to make a choice anyway.
In addition, if I re-establish contact I do plan on setting some boundaries. This will show that I am not a doormat.
Confused?? I am!
Thanks,
Cas
Hi Cas
This is a hard one for me to help with as I haven't had to do the nc step. I think though if you do reinitiate contact, you are going to have to do it very slowly and learn to be patient, because if you have a tendency to become impatient it could backfire on you.
You would definitely need to set some boundaries though.
Think I'm still happy with nc after all that. Probably just my impatience coming through and perhaps my own lack of confidence.
I need to get moving on my own goals and get my social life organised in advance. I have been staying home a bit trying to rest up but as the report was great at the surgeon today I can ramp things up a little more.
I have a friend arriving tomorrow for a few days so that will keep me occupied... dinner, movie, beach walks, cafe. Perfect now the weather is so beautiful.
I've read the advice from Gucci to you and it's a real change in our thinking and to best support you we need to think that way, too Oz.
Maybe we need to organise a GC retreat for us all. Blue sky, sunny days, beautiful beach. What more could anyone want?
Great news on your recovery!
Hi CAs
Sounds like the GAL is going well and that you're recovery continues.
NC seems to be working on a personal level which is probably the best we can hope for. The DB stuff is just as much about your personal achievement/growth (or whatever you want to call it) as it is about saving the M.
All power to you
Hi Cas
I think Gucci's words do ring true and in a lot of cases depending on the situation denial holds us back, I do believe that is the case for me.
I am glad you had a good report from the surgeon that should give you a much needed boost to get going on your GAL activities. It will be good having your friend stay for a few days with some fun things to look forward to.
A GC retreat sounds ideal.
Well done Cas - keep the improvements up. When you are back to 100%, you can then give DB your all - it's got to be so tough when you are not feeling yourself.
Having your friend to stay has to be the best tonic!
Morning Cas
Thought I would drop in and say hi, hope you are okay.
I'm going well. Thanks Oz. Had my little regression when I doubted the other day but I'm back on top and feeling happy. I'm itching to do stuff now like travel and move but I have to put a hold on myself for now. I'm getting impatient but I sense this is a good thing in some ways.
A definite sign of improvement as far as I see things.
You are doing so well Cas.
Just thought I'd say as we seem to be on the all the same threads! Keep your chin up and I hope you are fully recovered soon.
Hey Cas
Just saying hi. Do you really think your h will hold out and hold out before he makes a move. I can't remember if you've said whether you have let him make the first moves before? How long have you had n/c in the past?
Is it warming up over there yet? I can feel Autmn creeping into the air over here, not that we had much of a summer!
Morning Cas
Just dropping in to say Hi and see how you are getting on.
Morning Cas - what you got lined up for today??
Hello All!
Thanks for dropping by LR. I have been lurking and reading on your thread, too. It's early days for you so I send you my best wishes for the best possible outcome.
Thanks Nell. Feel I am moving along ok.
Julia, I don't think I will hear from H at all. I think I have always been the one who has initiated contact and he has relied on it. He will rely on me to make contact and quite probably he doesn't care enough to intiate it anyway. He has our kids and ow and her family at the click of a finger. He seems to cope well alone and clearly his past behaviour says he doesn't need me.
Previously we had nc for 3 weeks at a time I think, maybe a little longer. Once he made the move and emailed an apology after a major blow out and the other time the DB coach suggested I abandon nc and I reinitiated contact. For the most part we have had reasonably pleasant interactions but pretty much on his terms.
It's warming up....beautiful days here (about 25C) with cool evenings. Summer is just around the corner.
Hi Nell and Oz, not much aside from work today, and a quiet meal with the kids and my friend tonight.
You sound down Cas - are you looking after yourself?
Hi Nell,
Thanks for the concern but I am actually doing just fine. I am quite pleased with the progress I am making and my detachment...all is good!!
Well done you!! We just like to look out for our buds on the boards, eh??
Hello (((((Cas))))),
I am very happy to hear the surgeon's visit went well and you are feeling so much better. It has been a long recovery.
Happy also that being back on the job is energizing for you. Like all work, it has good and bad days. I for one am happy to have a place to go everyday again. I had 18 months off and it is welcoming to be back out in society.
I have just read back thru since my departure around 8/26/09. Not that my advice is right on and I have certainly not been a success, I am in favor of no contact.
I have given this quite a bit of thought of late and you know why. Our situations have grown very stale. Without a shake-up of sorts nothing will change.
To me, here goes.....I am going to ramble, sorry if this comes out of left field and seems a bit confusing. I am confused and struggling with my choice.
With contact of any kind it is purely cake-eating (even without sex). When we have contact they are getting a satisfaction from it. They are getting an emotional need met. They have no reason to make a change. The emotional need could be as simple as being friends with us and the thoughts that what they are doing is not wrong with us. The thoughts that we are in complete agreement with how they are living their lives and how they are treating us and our children. I don't mean that they are happy, they aren't. They are miserable. They do have all the options though. We have stunted ours.
I have come to realize that they will not make a change until they lose control of us. They have to lose us. They have to miss us and mourn our departure. They believe that they are in full control over all. Their freedom, their OW and even us. Most importantly.......us. They have the world by the a$$.
By us not making contact we are making a statement. Actions speak louder than words. If we make no contact then they will wonder where we are at emotionally and stage wise. They will wonder about our lives. When we make no contact they are losing control of.......us.
It has taken me over 4 years to learn lessons here. I think I am right. Not all WAH are the same. Every situation must be treated differently and there is no guess how the outcome will be ultimately. It does appear to me though that yours and mine are quite possibly in the same place. I read of a few others who could join us.
The longer our sitches linger the less likely a reconcilement will take place. My take on this is simple. Our H's become very comfortable with their cake-eating lifestyle. They reach a point where the freedom to be here or there, to speak with this one or that one, to sleep, eat, work, drink, whatever......is the drug. They cannot ever imagine having to be accountable and responsible for more than themselves. Freedom and control are the drugs. They become addicted and down right comfortable. The thought of returning to what was is crippling. The fear of the same drives them back into the tunnel rapidly.
I have come to realize that H doesn't want to D me. I can't for the life of me answer why. His actions speak (reek)of D. The conclusion I have drawn is it is freedom to be in control. No one is forcing him to make a choice. The dumba$$ OW has no more control over him than I do. This is purely selfish and self-serving on his part. He is getting a fix from the drama. He is feeling like the "big man". Reality is that he is pathetic, and viewed that way.
I am learning how to take control back. I am obviously a slow learner.
I think the Julia is right that we have reached Stage 2. I don't want to settle in Stage 2 land. I want my marriage restored or I want complete and total separation. I am powerless to fix anything at this point, H could very well be happy in Stage 2 land and not want more. I have thought of this a lot and think this to be true for now. H cannot have my friendship and value my communication....that is H getting his wants and Sanderika getting more of the same which is crippling to me. I have lived with an adulterous H for far too long. If I do nothing, nothing will change. I have to do something.....D is the answer for me.
My rambling is out of control as are my thoughts.....I am trying to make a point and hope it is coming across ok. I am trying to move on. I am trying to consider all my options for my future life. A life without H in it at all. I read here and have read before that Coach Jody says that some couples have to D to find each other again. I believe that one for sure. I should call her. I have two sessions all paid for that I have not used. I am afraid it's too late. I don't believe there is anything left here.
(((((Cas))))) we might be in the same place right now (?).
Enjoy your weekend with your girlfriend, get out on the town and do it right.....you deserve a whooping it up good time.
Sanderika
My nc has been 28 days now and I'm quite happy with that and I certainly feel better about myself because of it. H came here the other day to drop off something for D. I was outside and saw him drive in so I went and got D. He made no move to come in and I made no move to go out.
Each Friday I get a business report which H forwards to me. I haven't received it for the past two Fridays. Yesterday I emailed him and politely asked for the reports, nothing more. No response as yet. H usually replies punctually to texts and emails so this is interesting.
Been having a great time with my friend. Friday, a large group of us went to the surf club for dinner. Yesterday we had a beach walk, a long leisurely breakfast at a beachside cafe, a tourist drive, lots of chatting and then drinks with another friend who we worked with many years ago and who I haven't seen in 15 years. We then all went to dinner. It was fun reminiscing.
I have to take my friend to the airport today and then I'm off to buy my new dress, shoes and jewellery for the wedding on Friday. The dress is coral which is a colour I love.
Sanderika, it's good to have you around here again. I've missed hearing from you. I know that sometimes that distance gives us time to reflect and it enhances our db in the process so glad you had that time.
My post operative stuff is going well and lately I have resumed my beach walks and doing well, although they're a bit shorter, a bit slower and no steps(we usually have about 60 of those).
I just read back through my posts as you did...wow quite a lot of thinking and reflecting there, too. I feel better now that I am more detached.....don't think I am now as aware of H, his moods or his movements. He is on with his life and I am on with mine. I just hate the fact that I am still in limbo with no financial settlement and no divorce. I am getting increasingly anxious about moving on.
My final turning point was his moving day when he chose to have OW and her son help over his own kids eventhough the kids had been involved looking at houses with him all the way through. I think it's one thing to do things to me but the kids are a different manner. Finally I accepted what I've really known all along...this is not the behaviour of the man I married and I don't know why I tolerate his behaviour when I wouldn't accept it from anyone else in my life.
I take H's nc as a sign that he couldn't care less and maybe that's helping me to detach even further. I agree with your thoughts that our H's are not happy people. My MIL said that H is now very serious and certainly not a happy person.
I have concluded that H has known all along how much I wanted to reconcile and how much I was prepared to work on the issues. He spoke the right words but has only backed up with actions that suited him. Just as you have said, Sanderika, this lifestyle does not suit me at all. I am tired of the game. Enough!!
So...a very long winded way to say, Yes I most definitely think we are in the same place right now Sanderika!
Yes I most definitely think we are in the same place right now Sanderika!
Me too!
(((Cas, Sanderika)))
.... and I am fast approaching (((Cas, Sanderika, JCJ)))
Hey Julia,
That's funny cos I actually typed "and I think you'll find Julia is there with us too" and then I deleted that cos I thought that it was your place to say that, not mine!
I just read your post Nell and I'm not sure what the most appropriate response is. I think I am only ready now to move on. I have wasted so much time and energy trying to help repair our relationship and I've got nothing to show for it. I just hope the work pays off for my next relationship.
H forwarded the reports to me but with no message. It's his choice, I figure.
I had a thought today after spending so much time with my friends who were staying in beachside apartments. I am wondering at playing tourist myself and living in a beachside apartment. I've always rejected the idea in favour of a house, garden and pool but I'm not so sure about that now. I fear it would not be the wisest financial investment but it would be a lifestyle choice....no gardening, no pool cleaning and a short stroll to the cafes and the beach. It has appeal! I'll probably do nothing about it but it's a nice dream. Certainly if the kids weren't with me that would be my option.
I'm with you I think it's the two year mark. I'm ready too and agree I've learnt loads so bring on the next R. Yahoo!!
Lots to think about then, Cas. I like the sound of the beachfront living but hear the quandary in your mind. Lots of pro's but still the con's to deal with too.
Trouble is with us women, we are always too sensible and think of our security/future instead of being a bit more like the martians and just going for it ... who's better off in the long run? Who knows.
Cas, I admire the strength you have found to come to the decisions that you have, it would not have been an easy road for you to go down but you seem to be quite content with your decisions. As long as you are happy in yourself which you sound as though you are.
Beachfront living is the best Cas, I would seriously think about it, at the end of the day I truly believe that life is far to short to deny ourselves some lifestyle choices. Lying in pre op in March brought that home to me like a bolt of lightning, that hell I could have died at any time. We only get one shot at this thing called life so we might as well enjoy it.
Contacted H today by text to ask for account information. He was very prompt in response and very helpful. I asked for the info I needed and went on to resolve the issue.
Had a sleep this afternoon which was a luxury. After went to coffee with a friend.
Feeling good and in control. Been thinking that if I continue to feel this way I may make more personal contact with H at the end of Oct so that I can reassess it all.
Reconsidered the beach living option but it is very expensive and the place I like only has a very small 3rd bedroom. Not sure it would work. Still, it is there as an option, if not now but down the track.
H sent me an email today to start settlement procedures and to re-negotiate child support. He wanted my solicitor's details. Previously he said he didn't want to go back and forth legally costing money and causing further strain to our relationship.
I text a reply to question the solicitor and he said we have to go this way because we can't resolve it without legal assistance (last time we tried was over 12 months ago and I like to think we've come a long way since then).
Later I wondered if this is what he really wants or if this is his tactic to get a response from me. If so, I made his day!!!
Hi Cas
It could very well be that your H has just wanted to make some kind of contact with you, so I would view it with an open mind.
I hope you are feeling well and gathering your strength with each day.
Feel a bit sick for you Cas but hopefully you can stall him, if that's what you still want.
How does it work - are there different rules for different States in Aus or are they all the same?
Hey Nell, yes all states in Aus have no fault divorce. He hasn't mentioned divorce, just financial settlement. I have since spoken to him and as the conversation was unplanned there was lots said......all very calmly and sensibly but I'm not sure what it all means. Hmmm
He wants to organise financial settlement before the business is sold (previously he said we wouldn't/couldn't do that)
He wants to use solicitors (previously he didn't want to give our money to solicitors unless we really had to)Another option he gave was for me to put forward a proposal
He wants to be friends but he doesn't want me nagging/pressuring him
He thinks we need financial settlement before we can really move on as friends
other stuff but I can't remember it all...it's all out of sequence. In the mean time I received a difficult phone call and I had to ring him back. He asked what was wrong when I rang back and I told him about the call and he was very caring and helpful.
OK Cas, so do you want to settle? If it's the same where you are as here, you will know that you can disagree and that will buy you some time whilst the family court sends you to mediation (apparently that's mandatory in getting you both back to stage one where you will find an agreement), so I have been told by the legal eagles over here. They told me that this can take months but I guess that it's all about how long you want to hang on for ... or not. Glad that D has not been mentioned.
other stuff but I can't remember it all...it's all out of sequence. In the mean time I received a difficult phone call and I had to ring him back. He asked what was wrong when I rang back and I told him about the call and he was very caring and helpful.
No wonder it's out of sequence! It's so damned upsetting that it's a wonder we know our own names at the end of it all.
I hear that this 'difficult' phone call was something entirely diffent though and I am glad that your H was caring and helpful. I hope that it works out OK whatever it was and I hope that your H will continue to support you with tonights news.
I also forgot to say that I told H quite clearly that there was no place for him to be swearing, shouting or name calling. He agreed.
So bottom line I guess is that I have blown nc!!
Do I want to settle? I am probably ready but I have a fear about finances so I need to face it and get it over with. I am probably having difficulty with facing the fact that it's all over but with or without financial settlement it's all over anyway. I'll sleep on it!
Do you have any idea why he is suddenly making these moves now?
Hi Cas
I hope all is well with you and I am concerned for you. I hope the call was not a bad one.
Thinking of you too Cas.
((((Cas))))
Julia, I suspect it's because I have had no contact and this was one way to get me talking to him and it worked. This was exactly what happened the other times I had NC and DB coach said to abandon. I should have recognised it but I didn't until I had replied. However, maybe it was for real. Time will tell. A 180 would be for me to come back with a proposal but I said i wouldn't cos this was what he wanted and although I wouldn't stand in the way of his happiness I wouldn't instigate the process.
Oz, the call was about a family member who had some difficult health news. It's upsetting but still a little up in the air so time will tell. Thanks for your care
When H said he wanted to be friends but didn't want me pressuring/nagging I agreed that I had done this. I can see it now after reading Dia's thread and having had time by myself without contact with H.
Well, I slept and woke and it's not really any clearer!!!
I am thinking that I will organise the financial settlement with him, ready for the sale of the business. Then it's all done and not hanging over my head anymore.
Then we are both financially independent. I then know any moves toward friendship are genuine and not just trying to keep things smooth for the best possible outcome.
It would also be a 180 for me to take this to the next step.
I'm thinking I ask for the divorce at the same time and then there's nothing left...it's all over and done and we are free to start again as friends without any pressures hanging over our heads.
I think what I was trying to say was perhaps the marriage has to be totally dismantled before it can start again as a new relationship in whatever form the new relationship may be. As an Aussie who grew up in bushfire areas I guess it's like the forest burning to the ground and remaining so sad, desolate and forlorn. When the new charcoal landscape appears to be permanent and the memory can barely conjure up images of the former area, tiny little sprigs of green start to sprout bringing new life and beauty to the charcoal mess.
Wow Cas
Apart from the decision to end the M which is a huge one to make and be comfortable with, I like the way you have described it as a burnt landscape that begins to regenerate. It is actually a beautiful way to describe it. I admire your strength Cas.
Oh Oz, I'm not really that comfortable but I really don't see any other way forward
Another interesting day in DB land. I rang H back today as I promised I would last night to update him on the health issues I mentioned last night. We spoke for 25 minutes and it was like H of old....very caring and pleasant as he can be. We talked about a few kid issues and other stuff. He reiterated that he wants us to be friends. I said that this time I deserved to be treated with respect (referring but not renaming shouting/name calling/swearing) and that it should not be me that was the only one who initiated friendship. He said he understood that. I figured I had nothing to lose by setting the boundaries.
I very clearly told him that this was the last chance for us to be friends and any behaviour from him that was contrary to what I expected would mean that I would again revert to nc as I had learnt that I didn't need him if he behaved so appalingly. So, yes he did notice the nc Nell. In good DB style I ended the conversation first.
Interestingly, he did not say a word about the settlement or my solicitor. I still think settlement is the way to go but I will give it a few more days.
So have I just opened myself to more cake eating? Probably, but I figure I've put it out there and he knows my expectations. NC has really shown me I'm just fine however things go and if he stuffs up, it's his loss. Think this knowledge should in turn enhance my sense of confidence and self worth (and I'm sure the surgery has helped that too)!
So still wondering if the email was about settlement or about nc!!
Hi Cas
I love your actions. I especially love the bush fire analogy. I think you did really well on the phone.
Now is a chance to change behavioural patterns with him. Look at how you have played it in the past and do something different. What I mean is, who normally initiates? Where do you meet or interact? Is it alone or with the kids? That kind of thing. You have a fresh start with this friendship thing. Great job!
I so feel for you Cas - you and I have similarities in our sitch and I think that you are much braver facing this than I am. I am the proverbial ostrich and hoping that it all goes away ...
I too love the bushfire analogy and I SO WISH that it works - not only for you but for us all. You are doing so well ((Cas)) - I know that it's not easy and with all the health issues surrounding you and your family, it's just what you don't need at this time.
Sending you positive vibes - look up and see the Southern Cross and know that it's bringing you my best.
Uh Ohhhhhhh - Don't KNOW that I should have posted this to W, but I did....share your thoughts...
"I wish you would let me into your FB life.....I know there are things you don't want me to see....that was obvious by the posting that was made by " both of us" last week on the same pic....but secrets are different than privacy (I feel) . I feel like they are not good for anyone. Its just some are more hurtful than others. Merely a request, and one you certainly don't have to allow. I so badly want to build back trust, without that NOTHING will ever move forward or be healthy, and no matter what our future holds...we are going to have to have that for obvious reasons."
Well, a rough morning brought on by ME I suppose. The roller coaster got me. DB instructs me not to act as I did in the past 12 hrs, but my stupidity and emotions got the best of me. She has so much of her life that she wont disclose, no transparency at all, and that bothers me; but I don't know that she can or wants to change that. That is one of my single biggest issues with her, and well her A & OEA. But even after that, I am willing and want to stay with her for all of the reasons a couple gets married to begin with.
I said somethings with "tone", not really a fight, and I approached in when she was in a vulnerable state (showering), OMG what was I thinking....1 step forward and 3 steps back....
Well I am not sure that we actually had the 1 step forward in her mind.
Back to being a loyal DB practitioner....and trying not to slip up.....
Julia, I guess from this I've recognised that H still doesn't want to let go entirely. However, words are easily spoken and his actions will tell the real story. This is not an opportunity for him to jump back on the cake eating train. This time he has to initiate contact or I will return to nc status. I still love him and would love to sort this out but it's certainly not going to be at 'my expense'.
I learnt that my nc did have an impact. I did say earlier both that he might not have noticed and then that he couldn't care less that I was nc but it appears I was wrong. I know now I can NC and it brings personal strength and a way forward.
Yesterday's return call and convo shows him I am still approachable and in that convo I did acknowledge my faults too so I think we have a pretty clear base. In the convo I mentioned the dinner we had after s's formal and I said I really enjoyed it and I know you did too (he text me to say so) and he didn't deny. If he now chooses nc I will take steps to wrap up quickly. In fact, for some time I had been considering changing my name back and your bank actions inspired me to look into that.
Now as far as the behavioural patterns...good questions. I normally initiate and it's usually around family; meals together or school/sporting events. we have met for coffee just the two of us quite a few times but not for months. I agree that it's a chance to mix things up but it's a softly, softly approach too. I think I need to wait a little bit to see if I hear from him. Then.......... well I've got no idea! I have previously stuck with the family/coffee scenarios as they are 'safe' and he is more likely to accept.
I am thinking that I need to tap into his interests that I could participate in perhaps.... flying, concerts and walking on the beach. I would have to keep my detached stance here so that I handle rejection carefully. Of course, his new house is another thought. Anyway, all this rambling may be for nothing. He could just be luring me back in!
Hey Nell, couldn't see too much across the eastern sky yesterday because of the huge dust storm. I have never seen anything like it. My carpets were just cleaned the day before and they feel awful and there's a film of dirt over every surface. They say car washes will have a HUGE trade today!
Nell, keep in mind how long I've been at this...... 2 years. I was an ostrich for ages and I was so in denial. The times are changing but I certainly get no award for my ability to process and move quickly. That's perhaps why I need to do a 180 and bring him the paperwork for settlement.
Be kind to yourself Nell and be patient. This is one hell of a journey. Buckle up and hold tight! Hugs to you, Cas
Hi Doormat and welcome to the site. I am sure you will find lots of help, support and words of wisdom here. So you can give a background to your story and people can follow along I suggest you set up your own thread and place it in newcomers. This will help you to read and re-read your sitch and the advice people give you. I think we need this background, too before we can make any valid suggestions.
Cas
Thanks Cas - seems that more than one of us has sand in our eyes!!
I am really hoping that your H will contact you soon so that you do not have to go to wrapping things up 'quickly' but then I want for you to have peace in your heart - whichever way that comes for YOU. This whole process is so painful and the sickening feeling in the pit of your stomach, constantly, is the worse kind of torture.
Didn't hear about the dust storm but then I tend not to have the TV or radio on anymore. I can't stand all the romantic songs - it kind of crawls under my skin right now!
Have you got those new non-touch car washes with you (guess you have as the East gets it all before us)! Sure to make someone a heap of $s, especially if the dust has settled that badly!!
Thanks for your support Cas - it's a good thing that us girls are all so kind to one another. Hope that you have a lovely beach walk today.
Glad the NC worked - you do deserve to be respected!
Hi Cas
I hope your H initiates next and it would be good if you could start to tap into his interests to mix things up a bit and perhaps get his interest in you going a bit more. But you will have to go softly softly or he is likely to retreat back into the big black hole that they so love to hide out in.
It is like being on a see-saw trying to get the balance and not tipping it fully one way or the other.
S in Newcastle said the dust storm was incredible, all flying cancelled for them. It is amazing how the dust gets into the houses and getting rid of it is a nightmare.
Have a good day Cas, I hope you are feeling well.
Hi Nell, Buttercup and Oz,
It was good to hear from you all and to gain your perspectives. I think patience and no expectations are my key words at present. I certainly have no expectation that he will make contact. It's easy to say this stuff but more difficult to action. I suspect that I won't hear from him now. I had thought it was up to him to initiate contact but perhaps I am being too rigid in my thinking and I could set something in action. I can't come across as being pushy either. I haven't sent him the kids school photos so perhaps that's a simple start.
Today I went out for shoes to wear to the wedding. I bought some strappy sandals and they do look good with my coral dress that I bought at Flower. Do you know that shop Nell? they have 11 stores in WA apparently. I was after some new jewellery but couldn't quite find what I was after so will head to the shops for a quick browse tomorrow morning. I paraded it all for D tonight and she thinks some jewellery I already have will be fine but I really want a bit more bling! The last wedding I went to I said I will never go alone again. Ha ha
Hey Cas
I don't know Flower but I shall certainly look out for it now. It's such a shame that we can't swap contact details - I could have made some bespoke jewellery for you ... I'm in to beading and I'm not too bad at the simpler of styles, which I feel can look stunning on that certain little outfit!! Perhaps your existing j will be fine but maybe, considering the circumstances, bling is just what you need right now!!
Go bling yourself stupid - and bling home some bargains too!
Nice one Nell! Re the jewellery I knew what i wanted, just couldn't find it and since I have no creative bones in my body I could have done with your expertise.
Yes I said we should organise a GC rendevous with whoever wants to join us. It would be fun for us all to meet up and have a DB catch up. Unfortunately, flying to WA is out for me at the moment as I have my next surgery coming up in Nov but next year I fully intend on visiting a few more places I haven't seen or haven't seen in a long time.
www.flowerclothing.com
Hi Cas
Sending you H the photos would be a good way to initiate without appearing to pursue, definitely a good idea.
I am sure you will look hot no matter what the jewellery but a bit of bling always makes you feel that bit more special.
GC rendezvous I am all for. Have been thinking seriously of getting away even for just a weekend, maybe GC is the way to go, just feel I need to get away for a break from the madness.
Yes, yes, come here....just not in November when I am in hospital!!
I'm missing out ... what's GC??
... but I'm all for it - finances pending and when, so that I can put cats in cattery (or get H to babysit)!!
A text from H to enquire about D. No other contact since our convo Tuesday. He's probably quite relaxed in the knowledge that I am still 'on side'. I'm only partially there though. I'm not sure how long I should allow him to initiate or if I should initiate with the goal of him accepting an invitation. Decisions, decisions!!!
I went to a wedding yesterday and it made me feel a little reflective to see such a happy family occasion and I wondered about our own children and their future special events.
Hope that some aspects of the wedding were enjoyable for you, Cas. It must be difficult to predict how things will be in the future but you have to reframe all of that and just wait ... lots can change by then.
I think that maybe waiting for your H to initiate another contact would be the way to go and then, you could try initiate one. Let him do the lions share.
Hi Cas
I think it depends how long you think it will take your H to initiate contact again and how quickly you would like to have contact with him.
If he is going to take a long time and you would prefer contact sooner then you would be best to initiate otherwise wait for H. I hate these kinds of decisions, I am not a good decision maker at the best of times.
Thanks Oz and Nell. The wedding was beautiful and the bride was just stunning. She is one of those people whose smile lights up a room.
I don't think H will initiate contact actually....same old, same old. He has me on side, no need to work at it. It's still all about him.
Well then Cas if you know he won't initiate do you feel that you want to?
I am thinking that i will initiate with something simple and then ensure I take a pressure free stance. I know I have a different attitude now and I feel sure I can do this in a more detached mode.
However, just initiating might be pressuring. I guess I could ask him if he minds that i initiate.
In previous times H would get annoyed with me because I was a people pleaser and never made a decision, always waiting on others so perhaps being decisive is a good thing.
I think your last paragraph has given you your answer. If it is a 180 for you to make a decision and take action then I think you are right it is a good thing.
I just sent him a text to say I was going for a beach walk this afternoon and if he was interested he might like to come along. He replied that he would let me know because he had to work today and wasn't sure when he would finish. I am going to go out soon so that I am not wondering if I will hear from him.
Good move Cas. At least your H is considering it.
I would just love things to turn out right for you. I think that you so deserve it.
Look after yourself ((Cas))
Thanks Nell. He rang at 3.00 to say he couldn't walk until 4.45 as S has just got new clubs today and asked H to go to the driving range. That suits me as it's pretty hot here today. I am getting the crumbs but I'm happy for H and S to have time together.
Take the crumbs and good onya!
It's warm here today, too. I'm shading in the study as I'm still recovering from my over-exertions this morning.
Cas, I'm really pleased that your H didn't dismiss the walk and has merely pushed it back timewise. I bet that you are more than delighted with that? Now, you have time to think about the convo and how it's gonna go .... are are you ready??
What's your game plan??
Well Nell I've decided crumbs are good enough for today. I had no expectation that H would say yes to the walk and I would have thought that once he said yes to golf with S that would have given him the excuse to opt out.
D needs to be collected from the cinema as well so just hope it won't all clash time wise.
My only plan is to ask about him and his interests and to shut up and listen. Then I think I'll have to tell him I have something else I have to do so that I leave first.
Great work!
It would be perfect timing if D needed picking up at the same time that you are ready to make your move - leaving H before he leaves you!
Hope that you will be back later so that I can see how you got on. I'm really bored today, so just lurking here ... saddo that I am!
I know that I should be out enjoying the day but I can't get comfortable with my own company, at all. I'm one of life's "need company" people and I am starving away for lack of company - any company, right now. It's hideous being alone.
Go off and get ready for that walk, madame!! Will be thinking about you. Good luck - and keep your mouth shut tight!!!!!! LOL
I just went to the shops, got a pretty top and a Boost juice and window shopped a little. I have a lot of housework to do but motivation for that just isn't coming today.
Oh, nice too! Pah - forget the house work ... it's always there tomorrow.
Carpe Diem - seize the day - and today is a good day for walking with your H. Working out the times, that should be right about now.
DB your a$$ off, Cas :o)
Nell, I'm back. We walked about an hour and it was the perfect time, still warm with a light breeze.
I thought H seemed a little edgy at first but then he seemed to relax and we talked easily and about a whole range of stuff, both contributing to the convo. He doesn't ask anything about how I'm going other than "Hi. How are you?" but he does listen and ask questions when I tell him stuff. He did, however ask about my ill relative.
Along the way I met a colleague and introduced H. I noticed H almost step aside so that I didn't have to introduce him but I did anyway. He seemed ok about it. It did make me think that anyone who knows H and OW could see us so he's obviously not too concerned about us being seen together.
At the end I just headed over to my car and he walked over with me. I said goodbye and he said thankyou. I returned the thanks and headed off. He was behind me at the lights and I went left rather than right just to let him wonder where I might be off to next.
How's this for positives;
I issued an invitation and he accepted
I did some exercise and had some fresh air which is always invigorating along the most beautiful beach, watching the setting sun
We had an easy conversation
I did not pressure
So now, I continue the softly, softly and wait a while before I issue another invitation
And Nell, I am now going to get stuck into tidying my house
Oh you did so good, girl!!!!!! I especially love the bit where you went left and not the predictible right, at the lights ... that will have him going!!!
Look at all those positives today when, yesterday was so gloomy. You had all but given up but you are back in the saddle ... are you Cas? Sounds like it, to me.
Not surprising that the start of the walk H was a bit edgy. After a few weeks of nc, I too find it a bit strange. It's odd to think that someone you have spent so many years with day in and day out, can suddenly become a 'stranger' to you. It comes back quickly enough though and no place like the beach to put it all back in to perspective - with all of the glory that nature has to offer - the water, sand and a setting sun. Idyllic.
I figure that H stood aside not expecting to be introduced as he was unsure of what the colleague knows. He could have been feeling on very shaky ground at that point, is my best guess. Vulnerable.
Sounds like it all went perfectly though. You must be feeling pretty chuffed with yourself and no wonder you have the vigour to go home and clean the house - just don't burn out and keep some energy back ...!
Are you prepared/expecting a pull back, if I'm not putting too much of a dampner on this new high?!!
Every time I walk along the beach which is most days I am reminded just why I live here. It really is the most glorious scene. I especially love the early mornings, watching the sunrise is so beautiful.
Good point about H being vulnerable when we saw the colleague. I introduced H by name and said "This is D; we work together." Now D is a lovely young guy and he knows who H is by name but he knows we're separated. At the end of the conversation, which I cut short so H was not too ill at ease, D very nicely said , "It was good to meet you H." So that made it more comfortable for H as well. As we walked on H asked a little more about him and his work.
I'm happy with today Nell but I am also realistic enough to know that it was a walk and that's it. H won't make contact again. I will initiate something along the way but again it has to be simple and uncomplicated. I have to give it time. I'm also busy proving to him that I can be a friend without the pressure of further expectation. After our NC I know he is watching and noting even if he is out of contact.
Sounds peaceful and comfortable in your world today Cas. I feel your serenity ...
You made the meeting with the colleague work well and it was nice of D to comment such. It must have taken the anxiety away from your H, which allowed him in turn to enjoy the walk with you.
I feel that you have dipped your toes in to the water .. you don't know if there are goldfish or sharks lurking beneath but for now, the water is warm and soothing ... enjoy it. Deal with the marine life later :o)
Good on you Cas ((hugs)) - again, I find myself saying that I am jealous!
(((((Cas)))))
You get a great big "atta-girl" from me.....Way to go girlfriend!!!
A walk on the beach......a perfect atmosphere to encourage a friendship!!!!!
I think that was very smart. You gave H the opportunity to see that you are a wonderful woman. Certainly not the enemy that his thoughts portray.
It's huge that H even accepted the invite and didn't get cold feet and cancel out.
It's huge that H was comfortable enough to stay and walk for an hour.
It's huge that the conversation flowed and was not awkward.
It's huge that H walked you to your car.
The thoughts and warm, fuzzies you gave to H, by means of friendship and relaxing conversation will have an impact on him.
My guess is that hour has replayed through his mind many times.
It is from encounters just like this that a comfortable friendship will emerge. It is only after the friendship is rebuilt that the relationship can move to another level.
I would be certain that H will accept another invite from you. You need to be careful that it is not too soon. If you go forward very soon, H will back off. H will back off because he will assume you are pursueing. Treat H with gentle nudges. Easing him into a frienship will show him you are changed and genuine. Remember to leave all R talk at bay. Only discuss it if he is willing. H is only going to proceed with caution. He is watching you for sure and that was a perfect place for him to see you in a relaxed, comfortable, happy frame of mind.
I actually have the thoughts that H enjoyed it very much. I wonder if he might initiate an invite.
I can see that you are not ready to give up the fight and therefore you should not. This is an example of great DB!!!
(((((Hugs))))
Sanderika
Hi Cas
What a great response from your H. I hope he did go. Even if he didn't the best thing is he was thinking about it. As Nell said you so deserve things to go right for you and I really hope with all my heart they do.
I hope your health is improving daily.
I feel that you have dipped your toes in to the water .. you don't know if there are goldfish or sharks lurking beneath but for now, the water is warm and soothing ... enjoy it. Deal with the marine life later :o)
But Nell, we have to remember that my toe has been dipped in that water so many times and it has been warm and soothing so many times. The MLC means H can go from enjoying pleasant walks, coffee and dinner to distance overnight. My challenge is to keep the pressure off to allow him to come to the realisation that he belongs with our family. I think deep inside he knows it but his pride stands in the way along with a host of other stuff.
It was so wonderful to hear from you Sanderika. I have been checking your thread each day just to see if you've touched base. I read your post to Nell so I have an update on how you are coping. You have such personal strength and although these days are extremely challenging for you, you will continue to grow as the wonderful independent person you are. Take your time and don't be concerned at how long this process takes. It takes as long as it takes. All this self reflection can only be positive for you in the long term.
As always I am so grateful for your insight. Thanks for pointing out all those positives. It's always helpful and interesting to see what another gleans from a situation.
Although I agree that H did appear to enjoy the walk I doubt that he will initiate an invite. He hasn't done that in the past and I feel sure that his recent email about solicitors was simply to get back in touch. I wondered why he did that rather than sending a text and saying hi and suddenly it hit me; H is very concerned that anything he initiates may be misinterpreted by me and I might take it to mean he is interested in taking things further and he's not.
So.....with that in mind it seems H will accept invitations and will respond to my messages. It seems that for now I have to initiate and just show him I am safe and I won't pressure. I also have to continue to show him I have another life and I am not at all dependent on him or needy.
This is most definitely my last attempt so how I handle this is crucial. My mantra has to be 'patience and no expectations.'
My timing will be vital.
Thanks for your support!
Cas
Hi Cas
Sounds like you had a wonderful and positive experience. I agree with everyone, the fact that he accepted is a huge thing in itself.
I admire your patience and calm resolve Cas, just like Dia you know how to do things at a steady calm pace and it pays off.
I am sure that very slowly your H will come round and begin to initiate contact and then rejoin the family, as you say keeping the pressure off will be crucial, it's a bit like navigating a ship through icebergs, steady and with great care.
((((((((Cas))))))))
I admire your patience and calm resolve Cas, just like Dia you know how to do things at a steady calm pace and it pays off.
Ha! I have never been patient, ever Oz. I'm a slow learner. It's taken me 2 years to realise that my impatience in this situation is a killer!
I hope you're right on the family stuff. He did ask about my ill relative and I know he cares for all my family. Whenever I tell him about them he really listens and shows interest. Once I was telling him about a small accident my mum had and he wanted to know why I hadn't told him when it happened. Doesn't want to be part of the family but really does!!
October will be interesting. My brother and his family will be here. H visited them and had a meal with them last time they were here, a few months ago. H has always been close to them. It is also H's birthday. Last year I did nothing and I think this hurt him although he's not a gift person but this year I will do something as a friend.
H has the kids for dinner every Tues but this week his B and SIL are visiting so he has asked the kids to come both Tues and Wed. I love it when he moves closer to them as he's always been a fantatstic dad.
You know ladies, I have just thought about something. Where are our men right now - what are they doing whilst we sit here for hours and analyse our lives with or without them?
Why, they are at work, with their ow, GAL'ing, carrying on, despite what is happening in our world and how much we Ws are suffering - they are not - nor do they intend to burden themselves as we are doing. They are not sitting on these boards before work, during work or even on a day off and heaven forbid that they would look to their own sex for support or comfort!
We are the typical 'housewives' - always trying to fix things, putting right that which is broken, making it all OK even when it doesn't feel like it can be - putting the magic cream over the cut knee to stop the kids from crying.
They are out there, living their lives and not driving themselves crazy - and guess what? - we are doing everything that we can muster up to get them back. Do they have a message for us that we are just not hearing??
We are typical females and the martians know it. No wonder they have us on the run ...
Therein lies the difference between males and females! Read Why Women Talk and Men Walk. It explains it all beautifully
Will look out for that one Cas - do you know who the author is? I can ring the library and get it in for next weekend.
Patricia Love and Steve Stosny
Cheers Cas! You are up early this morning, as well as me! I've been awake since 4am so thought that I would jump on here quickly as I shan't be back from C until later this evening.
Hope that your day is good - it's set to rain here so glad that I shall be at work - no walking on the beach for me!
What plans for you??
Nell, I'm usually a 5am riser. I leave here at 5.20 for the beach walk. It's blissful at that time. Today is a day for washing and tidying up and then my D and I will go out to lunch together. S is at work today.
Hope your day is an improvement on the long weekend; I'm sure with work it will be. Work does give a definite structure.
Keep smiling!
Cas
I wish that I was closer to the beach, or more driven to make a better effort! Our beach is about 20 minutes away and the opposite direction to work, otherwise I could go on the way. It would be lovely to be as close as you sound - out the door and away! You have it sussed!!
Thanks - I too hope that the day will be better. Just checked the flights and it would appear that H is back - I know that I shouldn't as I don't even know if he was on that flight (it's my best guess based on what he has said in the past) but it makes me feel better knowing that he will be in Perth now and off to work this morning. I still feel sick.
Sure am glad of the work right now. It's a struggle still but at least the hours are filled with company and not just my nagging thoughts and paranoia!
Go pound that beach on my behalf and have some good quality time with D today!
((hugs))
Morning Cas
I too am an early riser of 5am, gives me time to walk the dog in the morning.
I love nothing more than a walk along the beach early in the morning, it somehow just seems better at that time before the hustle and bustle of the day gets going, I just love it.
I love an empty beach, Oz. I feel great peace and serenity at the beach. When I was ill I walked there every morning and it really cleared my head and helped me deal with the chemo and the depressive feelings I often had for days during the chemo cycle.
I live 7 mins drive from the beach and I'd love to move closer but it wouldn't work with D at the moment. The school bus she travels on at present drops her right at the door and as we work the other options don't really work. So, I am really committed here for the next 2 years.
At least 7 mins isn't that far. I am luck in that where we live now, it is a 5 min walk from the Marina that leads out to the Bay.
An empty beach is bliss, I like you, feel great peace and serenity at the beach, I find the sounds of the waves whether crashing or lapping at the shore so calming. I am most centred near the water.
Sent H an email...chose that because it doesn't demand the immediate response like a text but he will get it on his iphone anyway.
Made sure email was brief and upbeat and thanked him for Sunday's walk. He replied, 'No worries. Thanks also.' I feel really pleased with that response. It's the thanks also that I am noting.
Sounds great Cas. Validation.
Have ordered the Love/Stosny book - they reckon it can take up to a fortnight to come in but my experience is that it's always much sooner.
I am a beach. An empty beach.
The beach sounds heavenly, havent been there for years as we live in the midlands, exactly that.. although perhaps a day at the beach would be a good idea to take H on a mystery tour, thanks x
LR, that sounds like a wonderful idea. I think back to earlier days when H and I did lots of those surprise things and how much fun we had. I think it's true that those surprises and joys in life often get lost in the busy lives we lead. Make the time and just do it!
Nell, for me the empty beach is the most peaceful and serene. Picture yourself as this peaceful and serene being and nurture those feelings for as long as you can.
Hi Cas
I noticed the response in your H's reply to and I think that is a huge positive. As they say it is the baby steps and I think that is one.
Hope you are well Cas.
Yeah Oz, I thought the 'thanks also' indicated that he enjoyed the walk and leaves it open for me to issue another invitation.
Today however, he emailed to ask for my PO key. Not sure why; is it just a sign that he's wrapping everything up? I don't care too much since I never use it.
I'm doing well health wise Oz; feeling stronger and managing to walk a little faster. How about you?
Hi Cas
Glad you are getting stronger each day, just keep being kind to yourself as you have been.
I wouldn't worry too much about what he has asked for, I think just focus on the small positive outcome of your walk together, only worry about the positives try to ignore the negatives if you can.
I am doing well, have my six month checkup with the cardiologist next week, feeling good so should be okay, just hope I don'thave to go back on the blood thinners I hate the bruising they cause so much, not a pretty sight.
(((((Cas)))))
Oz, I hate the follow ups. I see the oncologist every 6 months and the surgeon every 6. Those visits come around awfully quickly. Althought I know in my heart I am healthy there's always the 'what if' in the back of my mind as I wait to see them, esp the onc.
H has also requested me to update(justify) the amount I would like him to pay in child support. As we have no financial settlemtn yet I am wondering if I should push ahead on that score just so that it's no longer hanging over my head and I know that there is no ulterior motive in being friends. It would also show I am moving on....a 180.
Read your posts to Dia and feeling envious!!
Hey Cas, I think your follow ups would be far more stressful than mine, but it is amazing how quickly time goes, it only seems like yesterday I was in hospital.
That's a big thing to do Cas and is something you should only do if you are comfortable with that, as I didn't have to go down a financial settlement path I don't know what to say. Do you want your H to think you are moving on or just moving forward with your life at the present?
I just think the settlement sits like a huge elephant in the middle of the room. We haven't settled because we still have a business. Perhaps if it were all wrapped up H and I would feel free of this noose around our necks.
I know H and I do get along well. We have always beeen friends but our friendship just got lost with the frantic pace of life.
I think that is the case with most people here, life gets in the way of relationships, we don't pay enough attention to them until things go so wrong that we end up here.
Do you think if the financial settlement was done and dusted that you and your H would have a better chance to rekindle the friendship hopefully leading back to an R? Do you think that that is what is driving a wedge between the two of you at present?
I wouldn't make a rash decision just yet, think about it a bit more, you wouldn't want to go one way or the other without thinking of all pros and cons and have an even bigger wedge driven between you.
I'm with Oz, Cas. Take some time to think about settlement - it's pretty final once it's done. Forgive me if you have already mentioned this but have you considered mediation re the settlement?
What does H want to do about the business?
I'm just considering options, that is all.
Today I accidentally called H while calling a friend. As soon as I realised I stopped the call but H called me back. He was quite friendly and chatty. He told me his b and SIL were coming for dinner tonight. He said he wanted the P.O key to put on a key chain with a spare house key for when he goes walking and he can then walk to check mail. A few other trivialities and then I said "I'm sorry I have to go. I'm meeting friends for a walk at the beach." (true and perfect timing!)
Oh nice Cas! Good work.
Don't you just cringe when you call/text H by mistake? I have done it twice since he has been WAH and yet he took it well on both occasions. I have even considered that it would be a good ploy to send a 'mysterious' text but I don't know that I could be that sneaky - what do you think??!!!!
How was your walk today? I'm sure that it was great with your friends but not anywhere up to the walk with H :o(
It will be good for your muscles to walk on the sand, so consider that yet another benefit to your convalescence and GAL'ing!
So the lesson for me today was not to jump to conclusions. I thought H was thinking of all the things he needed to get back off me. Wrong!!! Shows how our female minds can really stuff it up!! Lucky I didn't get all huffy with him!
Two friends and I had the longest walk! I climbed all the steps, so well and truly covered today's challenge. Afterwards we had a drink at a cafe and a chat. It was very relaxing.
While walking another friend phoned and suggested we all go to see Mao's Last Dancer tomorrow night so it's great to have something else to look forward to.
Nell, did you mean a text pretending it was meant for someone else that you accidentally sent to H?
Sounds wonderful.
Yes Cas - that's the text that I am talking about! My last two were GENUINE mistakes but it got me to thinking ... he read them and he was curious as he asked me about both.
H could see that it was a mistake and, when he knew who the texts were meant for, he understood how it happened.
Is it too sneaky to do it again but this time on purpose - and with a well thought out plan to induce intrigue and questions in H?
It's a big risk. If you've already done it by mistake, what's the chances you'd do it again? Not high, and that might make him suspicious to begin with. Then he would be suspicious and you would lose credibility.
You need to think of other ways to let him know you are out and busy. Have a night away. That will have him intrigued when you need to ask him to take care of your babies.
I thought that is what you would say!! Point taken though.
I have asked him to look after the babies previously and he just says "put them in the kennels" or "let me know the dates and I will get back to you". Trouble is, I don't trust him not to bring ow here if it's a weekend ... he's done it once (even though he later apologised) but I can't risk it happening again.
I have to find another way ... right now, I feel like a widow. I am getting so desperate to find a way of 'getting to him' and nothing seems to do so, other than when I rant at him and then he just walks away .... I am going dark again ... very, very dark but I need some help.
Hi Cas
Just droppinbg by to say hi. I'm loathe to give advice at the moment because of the position I find myself in, but I wouldn't be reticent about sorting out the financials. Do what is best for you? After all what is the worst that can happen?
How is your health?
Ok. How do you need the help do you think? It's a shame you live so far away. we can't exactly keep a close eye on you! We can't suggest you pop here for a weekend and me flying over is not on the cards at the moment either!
To start, you could email him and tell him you have a couple of upcoming dates and you'll need to be away. tell him you would prefer him to look after the babies on these occasions but if it's not suitable you'll pay to have them cared for. At least this way he knows you have a life and you haven't stopped living cos he's gone.
I'm super busy these days and H is certainly aware of it.
Hey Julia,
I'm so pleased to hear from you! How are you feeling since making the decision?
I am thinking like you regarding the financials; What's the worst that can happen? It will mean we have separate financials. In reality lots of couples have separate financials anyway.
I'm just taking one day at a time at the moment. I feel I am projecting a pretty upbeat image and he is being quite genuine at present. i even thought him telling me B and SIl were coming was a big deal. He usually tells me very little.
Health is excellent. Physio was happy with me and surgeon so I should be right to get back to hospital for the next surgery on schedule. Yay!
In the meantime I'm looking for this surfer dude for you!
Cheers,
Cas
That's a good idea Cas. I shall do that - it lets him wonder and yet know that I am happy to be independent. I shall leave it until mid-October as there's still time to be dark before the tribunal and then can use that as another strategy if nc fails to produce results again.
Thanks Cas!
PS - Yes, start planning the GC trip for the girlies!! Don't think that Rabbit would be able to hop on over, however!
GC trip...you say when and I'll do my most efficient organising...Oz will be in as part of her GALing(if she can leave the second honeymoon!!) and we'll convice Julia to take a detour from Sydney. Anyone else? Never know rabbit may just want some sunny GC weather!!
I'm there .... !!
Needs to be cheap and cheerful ... it's my GAL'ing too but $ conscious at the moment, as you know!!
What are we going to do? Start the agenda ... ! I need some major F.U.N.
Hey Cas
I'm feeling pretty cr@ppy today today to be honest. Not regretting my decision just sad after going to the solicitor. I distracted myself yesterday but don't have that luxury today as it is back to work and I'm not busy...
A lot of people do have separate financials, in fact the majority of my friends and family do.
I'm so glad he is more responsive. Do what works, but remember to give him space to initiate too, you want to get him actively thinking about you.
That is also brilliant news re your health also. You've obviously been doing a great job in taking care of yourself. Good on you Cas!
It has cheered me to post to you
Hope the sun is starting to shine for when I come over there, it is grey and miserable here!
How long does it take to get from Sydney to GC??
Julia, I guess your ct@ppy feeling is to be expected...this is a HUGE decision and one that you have given such considered and deliberate contemplation. It's sad simply because this is not the life you envisaged for yourself.
Allow yourself to feel the pain of this decision but remind yourself that you are the most beautiful and amazing person whose personal demeanour and integrity shines so brightly that it will radiate out to all those you meet. Be kind and patient with you; for that's exactly what you deserve!
I feel sure a whole new life is emerging for you and you need to be ready for it!
The weather is simply superb at the moment-sunny dats and cool evenings. It's been just perfect for our beach walks and for those leisurely coffees which go down perfectly as we sit lazily in the beachside cafes!
I've never been to London but I've watched lots of episodes of shows like The Bill so I have some idea of the weather!
The best thing today with H was that he knows I didn't deliberately call him, just accidentally dialled and then disconnected! I plan on giving him time to initiate and that's quite easy at present cos I am feeling happy and dare I say it, detached.
Sydney to GC, one hr flight.
Hope your day is on the improve now. Take care!
Nell, cheap and cheerful GC...yes we can do it! Our beach walks are free, window shopping costs not a cent and we've got some wonderful shopping centres, coffee with views over the ocean, drinks listening to a live band, a drive to the hinterland and of course lots of chicky gossip, plenty of food and the odd glass or two! If you're game, there's always a theme park or two! I'll work on refining it!
Hi Cas
I really have to get the net connected at home, I miss so much after I finish work.
I am so glad for you that your H appears to be warming toward you, I know they are only small things, but a huge turnaround I think.
You are right in saying our female minds always think the worst such as your H wanting a key, that's our problem, over analyse and over think.
GC trip, I am there.
So happy for you that your health is improving so much.
Thing is Oz, we always have these warmer stages and then he pulls back, has a tantrum, goes into silence mode and we have to start all over again. It's tiring but hopefully after my recent NC and boundary setting H knows that I will no longer tolerate that and I won't contact him. For now I have to sit back and be positive, patient and have no expectations. Lots of self reflection tells me my expectations usually get in the way.
I'll see what Nell has to say about my proposed itinerary and when she can save enough to get here and then we're on!
I'm excited today because I have organised a new bbq and outdoor setting, someone to fix the pool, do the gardening and clean all the paving. I plan on entertaining this summer!
Just thinking some more Oz. I guess I have not given up hope because although we have been apart so long he does keep finding his way back. As I get more involved in work and social life H will either be there or he'll disappear completely. This limbo won't last forever.
In the mentime I'm living the best life I can and I'm certainly as social (and if not more) so as when H was here.
Way to go Cas, I love new things, is the bbq and outdoor setting being delivered for you? Is the BBQ in one piece or do you have to assemble it?
I love my new BBQ, still have to get the umbrella though.
You will feel very content once all those tasks are achieved. I know I always do once you tick things off your list.
I am glad you haven't given up hope even though you have been at this for so long. I have a feeling he will find his way back but it is going to be a real slow process and you are right, the limbo can't last forever, something has to give as it is too hard to live like that forever.
Yeah I do, positive steps no matter how small can grow into bigger positive steps.
Your get together sounds wonderful really wish I could be there to, but its a little harder to achieve on a budget from over here!
Cas you are an inspiration on the patience and no expectations front, all of us know how hard it is to do and patience certainly isnt usually us girlies strong point.
IMHO I agree with Oz your H is still there dipping in and out, ok it may be a while before he lifts his fog but who knows, never say never and as you long as you carry on GAL and fufulling yourself regardless of H thats got to be good!
I agree girls. Cas has the gold medal in patience stakes.
Keep on GAL'ing Cas and slowly tick off the things on your 'wanted and to do' list ... it will make you feel better and when H does come around, he will be amazed by your achievements.
You doing OK today??
Got the pool cleaned today which was a triumph cos it was full of leaves. Looks good!
Went to see Mao's Last dancer tonight and really enjoyed it.
Thanks for the positives girls.
Saw H tonight as he arrived as I was on my way out the door. Nothing to report.
Still jealous of the pool...
Hi Julia,
How are you feeling today? Sure hope you're feeling better than yesterday
Funny isn't it, but my next place will definitely not have a pool unless I live in an apartment.
Hey Cas
Yes, I am better than yesterday. Yesterday was horrible, it threw me back to how I felt when it was all so raw. Today isn't so bad.
H emailed me today in reply to my financial stuff (I haven't mentioned D yet). His last phrase was 'Would be nice to see you sometime to catch up.'. Of course the first paragraph was full of excuses as to why he hadn't been in contact before. Sorry to hijack, I guess I'm just ranting a bit.
It's such a different way of living over there. I'm always torn between the two as I thought about moving over there but I would miss England too much with all it's quirks. Still, the sun, sea and pools are a massive draw.
Julia,
It appears H is being consistent.... offering excuses as to why he hasn't caught up with you...best of intentions and all that and then suggesting a catch up. It's like he's relieved that you have initiated things because it allows him to still keep his nice guy image intact.
I'm sure Australia is a very different way of living. Life on the GC is very easy to handle in terms of the climate and it is a more relaxed way of living. Sun, sea, pools and waterways are a huge feature. In Melbourne, of course there is the variety of 4 seasons all in one day and that can drive you crazy! However, with it comes business and culture. Sydney is just plain busy and yet beautiful and of course all the states and territories are so different. Is it possible for you have a test run of life here? Can you take some leave and have a working holiday? It would give you a clearer insight into the Aussie way of life.
Oz, Rabbit and Nell,
Don't forget in all of this that H has ow and he's had her for 3 years now. He's told me before in one of my pressure moments(of course, long gone now!) that he couldn't try to work on our M because he was in a R! At the time my sarcastic part wanted to say.....wasn't an issue for you before!!
Came across the email from H requesting my solicitor's contact details to organise settlement so I bit the bullet and sent it to him. Also sent him an email to request that kids stay with him for my next surgery. He replied to say that would be fine and asked dates. I said I would confirm after Thurs and he replied again ok. He made no reply to the solicitor details.
Oh (((Cas))) - no words from me as I just plain don't know what to say. 3 yrs with ow does seem like an awfully long time and I applaud you hanging out that long.
I'm sorry that you are facing yet more surgery. Will this be the last?
You will know when the time is right and maybe that's what has now allowed you to 'bite the bullet' and send the details to your H.
Do something REALLY nice for yourself today.
Nell, I'm really ok. I love H but i know either way, I'm fine! I'm intersted that he made no reply...not even thanks which would be his usual response.
Anyway brief snippet of today's convo: H and I discussing his new house. I make observation that he seems more settled, more peaceful since his move. We say it's about having your patch; your roots. Then by text
W: Ha, guess we're all happier when we have roots
H: Guess so
W:Suppose happiness depends on how good they are
H: Hope u have a good 1
W: Oh, I'm certainly planning on it
So Nell, went to coffee with a friend this morning and had a lovely catch up. Chatted to another friend on the phone and then went with D to do some shopping but bought nothing! Home tonight...yawn
Oh good job Cas. Even though you bought nothing, it's still out and about and who knows who you might bump in to?!!
I am planning to take the train up to the city next weekend. I don't know whether or not to call the ex-colleague who's W has just flown back to the UK as a WAW ... I have sent him a few messages of support and [strength] but only get a short response back. He says he's doing OK but someone planted a seed in my mind that he may be afraid that I am hitting on him and now I am paralysed by that thought!! I most certainly am not and would not - he's 10 years my junior and neither of us fancy one another, nor are either of us along the path far enough yet where we would even consider dating anyone!
I don't know whether to call/email him and ask if he would like to meet up, if he is in the city ... what do you think??
Yep, call him, I say. You can support each other. I have a great male friend who hasn't said anything but I got the impression that if I did he would have been interested. In conversation about H he was quickly aware that I just wasn't ready and then along the way I'd drop little lines in like "All my friends are trying to match me up but I'm just not ready/interested." Its made it very clear for both of us.
"All my friends are trying to match me up but I'm just not ready/interested." Its made it very clear for both of us.
When I say that nell I mean it made it clear for him and by saying this out loud I knew I had not been misleading or giving impressions that I was at all interested in a relationship. We are mates and mates only.
Solid advice there Cas - I think that I shall email him though - firstly, it won't be awkward if he's 'having a moment' and not wanting to take a call and secondly, it will give him some time to think about an excuse if he doesn't want to/is not ready to, meet up!
OMG - I almost feel like I have to post all of my emils on here now for fear of upsetting a friend - never mind H!!
What are you doing today??
Email sent Cas! Said that I was going to be in the city, would be nice to meet for coffee, new friends trying to set me up but not interested - find it quite insensitive. Just wanted to know that all was well.
That should be OK. Gee, this feels like I'm DB'ing two fellas! Ha, in Kylie's famous words, I should be so lucky! (Couldn't cope with all of that complication)!!
DB two males is challenging alright! I test it out on my s as well as H. Went to coffee with my Mum while my car was being washed. Mum wonders why H keeps in contact. We both think what happens between H and ow will be interesting when business sells.
And she laughed when I told her about yesterday's texts. Mum says if H was really out he wouldn't give a dam* about me and what I'm up to and wouldn't encourage conversation between us. He would attempt to shut it and all contact down.(#1849298 - Yesterday at 01:53 PM)
I agree with your mum, for what it's worth. I also think that yes, it will be interesting when the business sells. (When will that be finalised?).
I don't know why it is that WAS keep that eye on what they have walked away from. Even though my H has little to no contact with me, as you know, he still likes to know what has been going on when we do pass the time of day!
I consider that part of their behaviour is control. Ws are the ones who normally end up running the show and I think that WAH's, especially MLC'ers, find the taking of control to be quite the aphrodisiac.
So lovely that you have your mum to go for coffee and chats. I expect that she worries for you. I only have my sister back home and the one coffee that we did go out for in June was so special to me - I shall keep that memory with me for some time to come.
Hey Nell, Any chance your sister could pop over for a visit?
Ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh Cas - bless you. You have NO idea.
My sister, marvellous though she is in her own way, wouldn't even drive two hours to see me in hospital when I had major surgery a few years back! It's not her role in life. She is the family matriarch and it's our duty as workers to go to the Queen Bee and scurry around like drones. You get my drift?
Ask for money - it's there. Ask for a two minute chat on the phone, you got it (I won the lottery the other evening when I got almost two hours but then she was home alone)!
As for her flying over to sleepy-ville, forget it!
She's lost patience with my H - I also think that she feels that I should lose patience with him too but tolerates my current DB'ing as she can see that it is helping me to move along, albeit very slowly. In her heart, I know that she is worried but she's not one bit demonstrative - I am the emotional, sentimental one and she is hard and practical. I take in the waifs and strays and she firmly shuts her door in their faces!
Two sisters have never been more chalk and cheese - we love each other dearly but there's still a 'distance' between us. I just wonder how different she would have been if I had been widowed and not that my H had left me.
I see Nell....... always looking for practical solutions and obviously that's not one of them! I have quite a large family and it's interesting to see how each handles these issues so differently. Some have never even mentioned H's name again, almost as if he died. Others mention him in mocking/derogatory tones, others are concerned for his well being(and mine) and still others made contact with him. Just shows how different we all are! However, the overwhelming majority just want me to walk away and forget him. I don't tell my family that ultimately I wish he'd come back. They just don't get it and they don't want me to go on hurting. They have a point and I'm nearly at the end but I think I'm waiting for the business to sell and for settlement to occur and then I think the book is closed for me. then I can say, i gave it everything.
I don't really care what others think!They weren't there when he slept at the hospital with me all night when I was scared. they weren't there when he was at every chemo or driving back to get new medications for me or cleaning up after me. It's all up to me. It's all up to you Nell, too. You make the choices for you and you alone!
Something that bothers me a bit is that when my BIL and his wife came here to visit they didn't contact me. They spent lots of time with H and saw the kids but not me. I found that hurtful given that I have been part of the family for so long. It's like they've taken sides and since H and I don't have sides I feel a bit pi$$ed.
It interests me greatly Cas that friends and family behave the way that they do at these times. I understand them not wanting for us to be in pain and yet they show no sensitivity toward the pain that their words and actions bring upon us.
I got an email from a friend back home this morning and it is totally wounding. It's all wrapped up in jollity and fun but the bottom line screams out at me. This friend is frustrated at why I would stay here on my own and why I would 'hang around' waiting for H. I really feel that there is still a big stigma around D - especially from my original culture.
I also consider that, if I did give in to them all and went home, I would still be alone. They all work and have their own families so what would I gain?? The novelty of having me home would also wear off really quickly, so then where would that leave me? At least here I have the sunshine and beaches, I am still near enough to H for a thaw to take place and for now, I have a job.
Of course, my precious babies are a a concern and yet there was my sister (now that you understand that one!) telling me to go off and work on a cruise liner for 6 months!! People haven't got the first idea, do they??
Looking at what you have written about your family - it appears much the same. I am certainly learning not to care and that has always been H's philosophy too. Ironic thing is, he's not been the one to face them all, so why should he care??
Oh Cas - it's just as well we have found this place and can all understand and support one another until we make our final move.
Hi Cas
Just dropping in to say Hi and catch up on you. I admire your strength Cas to keep going as long as you have together with facing your health battles and surgery.
Thinking of you (((((((((Cas))))))))
Hi Cas
I mean't to also say,that it is interesting the different way family and friends react. I never told my mother about what was happening because I knew the reaction would be "he was never any good, I told you so, blah blah". The last time when H took all his clothes and said that was it, friends were encouraging me to go and have an A. Like that was going to help the situation.
Have an affair!! LOL. Can't believe people would offer that as a solution, Oz. Even my H said that if he had his time over again he would not have taken the path he did.
After my hospital stay I wrote H a card to thank him for bringing the kids to visit, esp on D's birthday. (He organised a cake for her and brought it to the hospital for us all to share). I then decided not to send it. Last week I finally finished all my thankyous and reconsidered the card to H. I changed my mind, thinking that I should acknowledge any positive actions on his part. I posted it the other night along with the rest and forgot all about it. Today I got a text from H to thank me for the card.
That's a lovely gesture from your H, Cas - and my, how you waited to send that card!! That sure beats the 48hrs rule, doesn't it?!! LOL
How did it make you feel??
I was really surprised Nell because I had forgotten I'd even sent it as it was posted in a batch with the others. It was a very pleasant surprise.
Last time when H and I made progress I felt it was based on me recognising his qualities, his efforts with the kids and his acts of service. Maybe, I was onto something, I just didn't keep at it without expectations! I will keep on this path now and test it.
In addition, I think H and I lost a lot of fun in our R, especially when I was ill and the period before when I was just too tired to do anything more than work and be a Mum. I have to think of ways to put more fun into things without pressuring. Perhaps our texts on saturday about the 'roots' were a small sign that we can still have fun with each other.
That's what db is anyway...finding ways which bring H closer. On I go!
Good for you Cas.
I'm furious with H at the moment - jump over to my thread as I don't want to hog yours!
It's H's birthday this month. What do I do?
When H first left he gave me both Christmas and birthday gifts. I gave him a 'peace plant' once, the first Christmas. He had the card on display for quite a while after.
I have given him nothing since. Last year on his birthday we even had an argument. On my birthday earlier this year he came to visit and sent a text but no card or gift.
Suggestions? Stick with nothing? Something personal? for his house? an invitation? something fun?
Hey Cas
Thanks for your message on my thread. I reckon somehting fun and lighthearted as a gift. It keeps it light.
An invitation to have some fun together, as you are just getting the nice weather a trip to the zoo, picnic, air balloon ride..
Something small and meaningful .... think about what makes H tick and go for something that represents an interest, hobby or something that he really cares about - then try to personalise it.
For my H's birthday a few years back, I bought a holiday to Monkey Mia (for those who don't know, it's where you can go and handfeed dolphins which swim right in to the shoreline). I then got a dolphin soft toy and tied the plane/accommodation tickets to his back and wrapped it. H was blown away!
Now, that's surely too much money to spend in this scenario but think along those lines but cheaper ... can't find anything? How about a tacky pink fluffy pen from Thingz?!! It would make him wonder what you were up to ... and laugh himself inside out, if only for the stupidity!!!
Difficult to suggest really Cas when you don't know someone. How about a book?? I hear that DB; DR and 5 LL's are really good!!!!
Hi Cas
Yes people are odd when they suggest ridiculous things such as having an A to spite someone. Not my thing definitely.
I think it would be nice to get something for your H. Maybe an invitation to do something fun. Takes a bit of pressure off a gift type thing but gives you some time together. Definitely nothing for his house though.
Cant understand why people think two wrongs make a right! Just popping in to say morning!
Thanks for your suggestions Rabbit, Oz, Julia and Nell. I have time to give it some thought. I can think of lots of things but I'm not sure spending a lot of money would be a good idea at this point.
Totally agree. A book may be just the thing ... as you say, think it through. Otherwise, just a card, chosen carefully for it's wording.
I know that you will get what is just right ... or decide to get nothing at all.
I have the same dilemma to fix come Australia Day!
Morning Cas
Just dropping in to say Hi and hope you are well. Had my cardiologist appointment this morning. All okay which is good.
Hope you have a good day whatever you get up to.
Nothing to report. Haven't heard from H since he text me to say thanks for the card I sent him. This text told me he liked being acknowledged so I guess I should affirm where possible.
I feel certain that H will not initiate contact but could accept another invitation from me. Not sure if I want to. I feel myself moving away, esp when there is no contact.
Cas
It's hard to affirm when there's nothing happening though Cas, eh?
If and when you feel like sending another invitation, why not just give it a try? Nothing to lose and, sounds like your shutters are up and a rejection would not do that much storm damage anyhow!
Enjoy Sunday and I hope that the new week brings something lovely for you .... :o)
Nell, eventhough I haven't heard from H I hear lots of things via the kids which makes it easier to affirm him.
I did text him to ask if he wanted to join me on a beach walk later today. His reply was "thanks. I'll see how I go." Non commital again but did say thanks so I'll take that as a positive. (My friend suggested non commitment keeps him in control.)
Now it's raining and every chance I won't go anyway.
Watched the boy in striped pyjamas Fri night and yesterday went shopping and then with a girlfriend to see Julie and Julia and to dinner. It was a very pleasant day. The movie inspired me so I made a new recipe this morning. It was an orange cake...don't remember it being part of Julia's recipes but it looks and smells good.
S and I have been cleaning out the garage...we accumulate so much stuff!
text from H at 3.30pm to say "Sorry. still at work. Will have to give walk a miss." So I replied to say it probably suited me anyway because S and I hadn't finished cleaning the garage. That's the reply I would give to a friend and what's more it was true. Cleaning always takes longer than you think!!
Anyway, I'm hoping he will see that I could accept the invitation decline graciously.
And it's still raining anyway! I don't usually do walks in the rain
So later on H came by to drop something off for S on his way home from work. He only stayed for 10 mins, chatting with kids and I in the garage where we were still sorting. I looked like a wreck!!!! Well, at least he could see that my reply text re cleaning the garage was true. I was definitely in 'hands on' cleaning mode. There was a bit of awkward silence between us... the kids were there as well. I just couldn't think of too much to say.
No walk but nice work Cas!! At least you got two positive responses from H ... one that he wanted to walk (pending time) and second that he let you know that he was unable to make it, rather than just not turning up!
I wouldn't be too concerned over not being able to think about the right thing to say when he did turn up ... it's better that than running off at the mouth for the sake of words, and then getting it all wrong.
Well done! How do you feel now ... ready to have another go in a few more days time??
I say getting respect from him is a good start! That he was polite enough to say he wouldnt make it instead of leaving you hanging around! Thanks for your words of encouragement on my thread much appreciated.
Hi Cas
I think that is great that H openly stayed for a bit to talk. I know you said a bit earlier you feel yourself moving away from H. Do you still feel that way now that you have had some contact with him?
Hi Nell, Rabbit and Oz,
Thanks for your feedback. I'm always interested in what others have to say. The tone of H's texts were positive and as you say, respectful. (He is usually respectful until he gets too close and that's when he usually loses it. However, the period of respect and positivity lasts longer and the disrespect and silence from him is shorter. This time however, I have been very, very clear that I will not be in contact again the minute that there is disrespect.)
I think he wants to maintain contact because any time I contact him, he always replies and quite fully. It used to be ok, yes or no. He thanks me more frequently now, as well.
For now I am the one who has to initiate slowly but surely. Last night I sent him a text about our D and his reply was quite long and considered. We text back and forth several times. I finished the convo first. Today I text him when I was at work to see if he could help me with a technical problem; haven't got him to problem solve for me at work for a long time and this is his expertise. He said to call him and gave me his home no. He was both pleasant and helpful.
Oz, I think whenever we are alone or in a comfortable family setting like dinner we have an awkward beginning but then the convo flows fairly easily. The awkwardness yesterday was like when you meet someone new. I guess it was because it was an unexpected visit and I hadn't planned it in my mind. I did however, stand back at observe him and I wanted to give him a hug and say everything is fine; I don't know but that's the feeling I had. He doesn't exude happiness. Maybe that's a facade.
I have also detached a little and I think this is good because when I do see him I am not as anxious and desperate for him to accept an invite, or to stay longer etc. He has to be feeling that, too. If nothing else we will end up as friends and that has to be better than enemy territory!
I still maintain that H stuffed up and knows that but he's in too deep and he's too proud to acknowledge his mistake. Just my thoughts and I could be wrong (and I am pretty often!!)In the meantime I'm trying to respect him and move slowly, slowly.
Nice work Cas!
It sounds like your H is ready to start turning a corner ... ?? Certainly, he is respecting your boundaries and is accepting of your conditions. That's so positive Cas - I can only imagine the amount of self control it has taken you to get him this far.
It's good that you feel that amount of detachment so as to lower your anxiety levels ... I think that I can relate to that and it's what allowed us to have a more positive day on Sunday. That bit surely DOES work!
It's so hard not being able to hug H when he is right in front of you. It takes every inch of moral fibre, right ... especially when you are 'acting as if' and everything appears to be going quite nicely.
Oh, btw, the book that you told me about is now in the library and I will pick it up on Saturday! Looks like they have sent it to the wrong library however, so I hope that it's there. I must ring them tomorrow!
Hi Cas
I think it all sounds positive for you Cas, the texting with longer than normal responses is great.
Detaching does help a lot, I think it protects you in a way from any further hurt and allows you to deal with issues as they arise in a cool calm manner.
I would say he has a new respect for you Cas which is great. As you say slowly slowly.
Hey Cas
Just dropping by to say hello. Glad the interactions are going well. Do you think it is different this time after n/c?
Hi Cas - just a note to say hello and thinking of you.
<coming out of lurk mode>
Glad to hear the communication is improving, and good on you for the advances in detachment. Patience and baby steps.
Wavey Cas just checking in on your today!
The interesting thing Nell is that I didn't feel that I wanted to reach out and hug H on that day from an emotional perspective. I just felt that he actually needed a hug, almost to boost his spirits. Know what I mean?
Have you managed to get the book from the library yet?
I am interested in what you say about the respect aspect Oz. I have noticed that there is something different but I haven't been able to pinpoint what it is. Perhaps you are right and it is respect. Perhaps my boundary setting gave him a greater respect for me. Who knows really?
Julia, as always good question. Maybe things are different after NC. perhaps he really doesn't want to lose contact. However, although he responds politely and positively to me he still doesn't make any effort to contact me.
Hello Dia and Rabbit, too. Thanks for popping in. I am working on the detachment and the patience! It will be a work in progress, that's for sure.
My brother and his family will be arriving this weekend. last time they came H went to visit them. I am curious if either party will make contact again.
I do know what you mean Cas ... I too felt that about my H on Sunday ... I wanted to hug him as he looked so down and alone. He was thoughtful as he cleaned the pool and I almost felt that his soul wanted to sing out to me.
Not got the book yet - picking it up tomorrow. They sent it to the University library and not my regular haunt! Still, no problem as it's nearer. Can't wait to start reading - thanks again for the recommendation
Nothing much to report. H sent me a business email and when I replied, I wrote "Hi H, How are you?" and then proceeded with the business stuff. His reply " Hi Cas, I'm fine thanks and you?" and then the business stuff. Not exciting but a baby step from someone who would have just ignores that part of my message before and never ever asked how I was even when he knew I had tests etc.
My brother and his family arrive here tomorrow. I'm pretty excited! We have a family day Sunday.
Hope you enjoy the book, Nell, now that you've finally been able to track it down
And another little story. H bought a new table, seats 8. D asked why he would want to get such a large table and she thought he said for when he gets married and has children. Turns out D misheard and H had actually jokingly said, "It's for when you get married and have kids". D told H what she thought he said and his reply was, "Oh no! That's never going to happen!" D clarified did he mean get married or have more kids. He said, "Both." Bet that wouldn't excite ow.
I meant ow wouldn't be excited that H was so adamant that he wasn't ever getting married again. It just adds to the thought I have had for a long time now that she's not the 'one'. It will be interesting to see how things are between them when our business is finally sold.
Phew - didn't like the sound of that as I was reading it Cas, so glad that you have clarified!!
As you say, H asking after you too is a good step forward and all of those steps forward create a better picture for us to live within.
Looking forward to getting the book - my usual library closes at 12 and then the other one opens, so I have a bit of a round robin today! Got some shopping to do and then plan to sit in the 33 degree predicted day and start my reading.
Have a fab weekend catching up with your family Cas - enjoy every minute of it - you are so lucky :o)
H phones D and then takes her out to do errands for her. They arrive back and once again H doesn't come in. He hasn't been doing that of late where he used to quite frequently.
I text "You haven't called in for a while. Too busy for us these days hey? ;)"
H: "No, not at all. I didn't know if you'd want me to drop in and I didn't even know you were home."
Cas: "Of course, you're welcome to call in."
H: "ok. Good."
I tell him about the work event he helped me with last week and tell him of its success. He praises my success and throws in a teasing but positive comment related to a career dream I once had a million years ago.
It seems that when I initiate a convo he responds quite positively but he is still very reluctant to take that first step.
S is over with H again today. they are spending more time together. H is seeking both kids out more frequently these days.
Hi, Cas,
In the very earliest days of things getting better with H, that's how it was. He didn't initiate, but he was animated and responsive if I called. Eventually that led to us having half hr or hr long conversations on the phone just talking and laughing. And eventually after that, he started to initiate calls/emails to me.
Thanks Dia. That is helpful to know. I am trying to keep a balance here of not pestering him but also maintaining some kind of comfortable contact. If we see each other or chat on the phone or even text it's friendly and upbeat. I liked his reference to my past career dream.
It's his birthday next week and I still haven't decided what to do. Again, it has to be low key and no real pressure but I want to remember/celebrate it this year.
Hello Cas,
From where I sit, after reading up on your past two weeks, I would say things between you and H have taken a definite turn onto Friendship Road.
The key is to create the atmosphere with your H that you are warm to him and forgive him, showing him that you harbor no grudges and blame for his choice. Showing concern and validation to him come naturally after that. This, they see and with patience, time and consistent behaviors from you will grow the friendship and then the "road" widens for other possibilities.
I am fully convinced that our marriages have no hope of reconciliing unless we re-create the friendship first. After we realize the pain in their hearts and minds from the marriage breaking up then we can understand the long "road" ahead to re-build the friendship. I have lived this. My H and I are friends. Our friendship grows stronger all of the time.
I see you and your H doing the same. This is not easy. I see that your H is warming and growing more content and easy with interactions with you. This is to be nurtured with time and patience and consistency.
NC is a great tool in several ways...for me it has allowed me to grow separately. It allows H to wonder about me. It gives us endless topics to discuss when we do encounter one another. It allows us time to miss one another's company.
For our H's, Ladies I believe this, they were hurt very deeply by us in a manner we didn't realize was happening. It cut them hard. The "road" back is long and difficult, it is a trust issue for them. They built the wall between us to protect themselves. The MLC was a product of the pain. They have brought OW into their lives to fill a void we left open. It will take us time to re-gain their trust and break down the wall.
For me 'n H the wall is coming down. For you, Cas 'n H, the wall is coming down. Protect the progress. Be honest and good to H to maintain the current status and then with time he will be able to trust you and be open to reciprocate.
I have lived by this for a long time now. I wouldn't give up and I am grateful for the current status. I believed from the beginning the work would be up to me. I took it on with earnest and I think H is also happy (and surprised) that we are at this place together.
H is still with OW. I am fine with that. I haven't changed my mind. I am able to now see it clearly. I now have accepted it all. Things can still change. I won't initiate any longer, it is H who now initiates our contacts. I have to think that NC from me has been a valid tool. Letting go is a valid tool. Accepting "What is....is" is a valid tool. Time is a tool. This is a learning process for both parties.
Sorry to ramble, Cas. I see you have come as far as me. Your H is warming. Things can and will change as long as you maintain your outlook and treatment towards H.
(((((Cas)))))
Sanderika
Just when you least expect it, Sanderika pops in! Thanks so much for your thoughts and impressions and hugs to you because I know that things are still very difficult for you at the moment. I appreciate the way you can reach out so generously to others.
It's true, Sanderika, I do feel there is something different with H and me. Now this is just my ramblings ladies....trying to sort stuff in my head.
Last night I flicked through my journal and I noted that H used to do a lot more for me than he does now. He did random things around the house like the pool or spray the weeds and popped in quite a lot for a visit. I was quite surprised how much he was doing for me and how often he was seeing me. However, for every period of positive contact there was then a major pull back with a temper tantrum.
Things seem different now. There's no assistance around the house and as I said yesterday he isn't just popping in any more. On the flip side, things seem more comfortable and as I said in my earlier post he responds positively to anything I initiate. So, overall I am having much less contact but it's more consistent and seemingly calmer. I'm wondering about this change.
Is he staying away because he is happier that way and his positive reponse to my initiations is simply just to be polite?
Perhaps his previous interactions and assistance around the house were based on guilt??
Did my NC put up a barrier and now H doesn't feel as confident to pop in for a visit anymore? Since NC I haven't asked for any assistance. Maybe he thinks I don't need him anymore.
I know I'm more detached. Perhaps H feels this and has responded accordingly. Perhaps he doesn't feel like I'm available for him to pop in whenever he feels like it and he's respecting that? Perhaps he is waiting for me to do the initiating as we do when we're being polite? Oz's thought was that H is showing more respect for me and perhaps he is simply waiting for the invitation so that he doesn't overstep the mark?
Who knows?
I thought about this as a result of our texts yesterday when he said he didn't come in to visit because he didn't know if I'd want him to. Dia's post gave me the thought that perhaps this is a totally new phase in our relationship.
I was supposed to get back to H with some financial stuff and I emailed him to apologise as I hadn't got to it and he said ok. Previously this would have really annoyed him.
Enough rambling..... I'm going to my nephew's birthday party today. It's a beautiful day so it should be lovely.
Wise words from Sanderika ... she's a marvel, isn't she? What more is there to say?
You are becoming so much more comfortable with everything Cas and that's good for your physical self, as well as your emotional side.
Enjoy the party - I hope that it's a glorious day with you.
Cas,
Of course this is a shot in the dark......
We are really not sure of the goings on through their minds......
I think H is at a place where he is perhaps analyzing what you are doing. The NC, upbeat, got-it-altogether Cas is not what he expected to run into.
I think he is "proceeding with caution". I kind of see him behaving like he is walking into the woods after dark.
I think his words "I didn't come in to visit because I wasn't sure you wanted me to" is something to work on. This says volumns. H has realized a consequence. The consequence he is seeing is that Cas can manage without me. Cas is getting things done without me. Cas is happy without me. Cas is moving on. Maybe Cas doesn't want/need me in her life anymore. Maybe this is the end of the road for us.
I realize this is an image and your wants and preferences would be the opposite.
I think you can use this to your advantage. I think you already are. I think this could be a perfect chance to change your sitch.
I would be more engaging with H when he's around. Invite him inside with a smile and warmth. Offer him a drink or snack. Engage him in a conversation all about him and his interests and job. Be green grass.....Stroke his ego....tell him he looks nice or how nice it is to see him. Cas, reach out to him.....
Invite him out again for a beach walk, walk in the direction of a coffee shop or pub.
Men also like to feel needed. They want to be the hero. They are problem solvers. When the next real problem creeps up, call H for advice or solicit his help.
Test the waters here.....
I hear all your concerns. I have thought about them all. My sitch was a bit different. In the beginning and until about a year ago my H wouldn't do a thing for me. He on occasion now will offer help.
It's all just thoughts....hope I have helped.
Have a great week, (((((Cas))))).
Sanderika
On the run tonight Sanderika so I will pop back tomorrow to write a response.
Just to say today H dropped in mail to me which was sent to our PO box; it wasn't anything urgent. He rang the doorbell and gave it to me. I couldn't stay to chat cos I was on my way to the physio. Interesting that he personally dropped by as he will see the kids tomorrow and could have given it to them to pass on or he could have put it in the letterbox.
Hey Cas - I like what I am reading here .... is this maybe 'our' time on the board??? It's about time, if so!!
Keep on being patient and tread gently ... Sanderika, as always, has some really good points to make here.
I'm praying for you - and me too!! If and when you read my thread, you will understand why!! In fact, tonight I am doubling up my prayers for us all.
PS - I'm not an overtly religious person - I "pray" to hedge my bets in that there must be a greater being than us and I trust that my words permeate the Universe and get to whoever it was that put us here in the first place!! Just thought that I would clear that one up.
Hi Cas,
Your H WANTED to see you. Plain and Simple!!!!!
Very interesting, girlfriend. I wonder how it would have gone had you not had to run out so fast. Maybe you would have got an invite for a beach walk and a coffee, Hmmmmmmm......
I'm not religious either ladies.....I can sure say I have been doing a lot of praying. I have been praying and hoping for all of us and our H's and marriages. I have even been sleeping on only one side of the bed instead of in the middle, the way the "law of attraction" works. Got this from reading "The Secret". I gotta try something.....I would be a liar if I said I was happy with the current state.
Cas, you could use this to invite H again. You could email or ring him and say...."It was nice for you to stop by with the letter, I was sorry I had to leave for physio. Would you like to ( ) with me this afternoon?"
I think you have caught his eye......(hope I am right)!!!!
I will check in later to hear the rest of the story.
(((((Cas)))))
Sanderika
Hi Cas
Your H is definitely interested and curious with the "new" Cas. Sanderika is right, his interest has been sparked by your appearance of being able to manage perfectly without him. This is the very thing that jolted my H out of his fog or whatever you want to call it, the thought that I didn't need him, could manage and possibly had someone else.
I agree with Sanderika, you could initiate an invitation to him now to do something with you and I am sure he will responde positively.
Take care Cas. Thinking of you.
I agree with Oz ... Cas is looking strong and quite mysterious. It is luring H to see what gives.
Keep it up Cas!
Sanderika, Oz and Nell, Thanks so much for your feedback and warm hugs to you all! I have read and re-read your posts tonight, trying to absorb all your pearls of wisdom.
I am agreeing that there is definitely something different happening with H. It's a tiny move in my direction but I feel that it's there.
Today I text H to tell him D was home from school and feeling quite low(She's had a fairly significant issue to deal with where both H and I believe she has been wronged and neither of us are parents who run in to save our kids). It is usual for me to text if the kids stay home from school. Usually H would respond "ok, thanks" and would phone/text D or S during the day. Today he replied to give his impressions after speaking with her last night. I asked what to do from there and he replied again with his thoughts and I said "Ok. Have a good day." He replied "U 2." Then he rang D and came over to visit with her and to offer her to come over to his place. He text her through the afternoon and then tonight invited her to dinner eventhough they were just there last night. This is like H of old!!
So I am seeing glimpses of the caring and loving H towards the kids and a definite move towards spending more time with them. He's definitely warmer towards me, too although I am a long ways behind the kids!!!
He's also back out walking everyday.
And D tells me that he's been commenting positively about the changes/tidying I've done around the garden.
I am still reluctant to issue an invitation. I don't want to seem like I am pressuring but also it is his birthday coming up so I will talk to the kids and see if we might do something for him as a family. I'm not sure about an invitation from just me. Losing my courage these days?
Go for it Cas, what is the worst that can happen... he'll say no? I'm glad your h is stepping up for your daughter!
The seasons are changing Cas - and so are our H's!!!!
Ditto JCJ - what is the worse that can happen?? I so like that H is there for D with her troubles - more important than any of the rest of this as I am sure that you will agree.
How about inviting H for a birthday picnic on the beach - a family event and maybe some volleyball for them whilst you watch on (not up to it yet, I know). That way, H would be interacting with the kids directly but you would be involved - albeit from the sidelines ... ?? Depending on how things go, it could turn in to an evening barbie back at yours ... ??
Start laying down the seeds ..... and then feed them!
Hi Cas,
H's reconnection to the kids gives H excuses/reasons to connect with you more and more.......
Keep in mind he wouldn't be doing it if he didn't want to......MLC H's ONLY DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO.
The compliments about your efforts PROVES your H is watching you.
Gentle nudges, Cas......
H's upcoming birthday is a perfect chance for him to see a changed Cas in a "happy family" environment. I think a family planned event would be very good.
I think he is watching and if you keep it all up he will come around. Cas, what you are doing is working, maintain it and results will follow. You are ahead of the battle sort of speak. You have attracted his attention!!!!
Hugs and Good Luck!!!!!
(((((Cas)))))
Sanderika
Keep in mind he wouldn't be doing it if he didn't want to......MLC H's ONLY DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO.
Now, that's for sure!!
Cas - I can't find Sanderika's own post for some reason ... please can you help guide me there?
Hi Cas
Had a bit of a break from the boards, but am now catching up with stuff. It sounds like the others are right going NC has a least sparked his interest and caused the change in contact. I shouldn’t worry that he’s not doing much to help out, it’s more important that contact between you two is less stressful and confrontational. It follows that any pullback is less dramatic too.
I’d take it slow with the initiating though, you’ve been here before a couple of times, rushed in and then got knocked back (me too). Rather than an invitation to do something, why not next time he’s round just ask him if he would like a cup of tea/beer and then guage how the conversation goes.
I’m looking at it like this, if he wants to spend time with you he will, simple as. All you can do is make sure that any time you do spend together is pleasant so he wants to do it again. Only he can choose if he does actually do it again.
As for the birthday you do family meals for those events don’t you (it was one of the kids last right) why not suggest that you do that for his birthday?
Hi Cas
Oh definitely he is wanting to see more of you and you have to be congratulated for your patience to get to this point.
If you want to do something for his birthday without appearing to pursue or anything, make it a casual event, anything, whether it be a day at the beach and casual dinner at home. By taking it slow and keeping it casual he won't be frightened off back into his tunnel (we don't want that to happen).
I am glad he is there more for the kids now especially your D, I do believe it is not just sons who need their fathers, daughters need them just as much and so this is great that he is back in their lives more now.
He will continue to come toward you Cas, it will be slow, but it will happen of that I am positive.
((((((((Cas))))))))
Today's text from H to set up a business meeting
H; Hi. Would you be available tomorrow morning before work to sign ..............
Cas: Yes. That's fine
H; 7.30 at ........ ok?
Cas: ok
H: Thanks. C u then
I smiled with this text as it's now H that adds the extras...the Hi at the start of the text, asking if the time/place suits and the thanks and c u then sign off are usually more my trademarks. Interesting. Am noting what others say, H rarely uses my name
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...260#Post1794260Nell, this is Sanderika's thread in solution focussed workshop
Bonny, good to hear from you. I have read up on your thread too and you definitely sound like you are in a calm and happy place, ready for whatever may eventuate. The dinner suggestion is the one I am likely to initiate but maybe not even this weekend cos he's sure to have something planned with ow.
Yes Oz, I agree and I am trying to keep it all as casual as possible. I'm trying to stand back and observe a little rather than throwing myself in there.
H and D have always had a very special bond and I am delighted to see that being reignited.
I know I make such slow progress here and my posts are hardly earth shattering stuff but I've decided I should continue to post even the smallest movements so that I can see the progress. Like today's text really seemed to me like he was being accommodating whereas before he would have set the time and I would have to fit in with his very 'busy' schedule.
Slow and steady hey??
I'm not as positive as you Oz but I do feel fairly sure that it's not over just yet.
So tomorrow I will be looking super smart for work, straight from my business meeting!!
Gently Bently Cas things do seem to be a bit more on the up atm. Really good news that H is spending more time with the kids, Im sure a lot of stuff goes back to my H via S(21) although he'd deny all knowledge of it if I asked. Also a lot of my 180's have benefitted the R I have with S I no longer seem to lose my rag with him but seem able to state my case and leave it, and it has much better results, he has known which of my button to push since the day he came out of the womb the little ratbag, probably cos we are so close!
Thanks for Sanderika's link Cas.
I think that it's great to write anything you feel like here - safe and secure, amongst friends.
Glad that you see a difference in H's text - a bit warmer/less frosty, I'm thinking? I'm guessing that the signature is to do with the sale of your business - are you resolved/OK with that now? If your M were to continue, would the business be something that would have kept going??
As for H's birthday, I think that you have to do exactly what you are comfortable with. It's like all things here - we ask for ideas, suggestions and advice but ultimately, we have to do what we think suits us the best ...
Let us know, won't you?!
I consulted with the kids and have opted for the family dinner for H's birthday. I emailed him to say kids and I had discussed and we wanted to continue the family dinners for our birthdays and he should just let us know when he's available.
Guess it'll depend too on what ow has planned for them
How about putting the ball in his court and saying that you would like to continue the family birthday dinners, how does he feel about that? And then suggest a date/time that suits you and the kids. See what he comes back with. Then there’s no pressure on him to even answer. Should you get a yes why not buy a small gift to give him when you meet, if you get a no just send a card.
 
They don't call this a rollercoaster ride for nothing!!!
Went to the business meeting for about 20 minutes and after I asked H if we could stay to discuss situation re D. H said ok and offered me another coffee. I said I was actually a bit hungry so he ordered some raisin toast which we shared. Conversation was very pleasant and we agreed on a course of action for the situation with D.
Then as we are about to leave H says, "We need to get our financial settlement organised." I agreed. Then he started going on about how I needed to put something in writing to him, that he's tried to organise to settle with me before and now it was up to me. I said I was a bit confused by this because he had asked for my solicitor's details weeks ago and told me that he was going to use the solicitor to sort things between us- that's the contact he made to change the NC. I asked why we couldn't just sit down together to sort it and he said no I needed to put a proposal to him. Up until now I have said that if he wanted to settle I would not stand in the way but I would not do the work.
When I came home he had declined the birthday invitation based on his work commitments and the fact that he wanted 'no fuss'.
Am I back at square one? It feels like it!! Why am I back at this point? Is it a pullback? Do I send him a proposal or do I just leave it to him? He says if I don't put forward a proposal he will go through a solicitor. I know this wouldn't be his preferred option.
Thoughts please
I don't know Cas - he's forcing your arm a bit with asking you to put together the proposal. Do you think that you could call his bluff and say "H, I just want to remind you that I won't stand in your way but I won't help you to do this, either. It's not what I want, though I shall respect however you want to move it forward"
How would that sit with you Cas? Do you think that he would then go to the solicitor and do it himself, or not? If he does, does he bear the total cost or would it have to be split? If you are anything like most people, it galls to pay solicitors fees unless ABSOLUTELY necessary - or you stand to gain from it.
So sorry that H has declined the invite. I don't think that you are back at square one at all even though it must feel like it - you must just hang in there and let things simmer down before trying again. If he doesn't want a fuss then fine, send him a card and leave it at that. [Sorry to say this but can we read that as "there are 'other' plans"]? That's the bit that will hurt more so than any of the rest of it, I bet.
To finish on a good note, at least you got to have tea and toast with H
Nell seems to have made all the good point, just out of interest did he reply to the birthday request after or before the meeting.
If before then maybe its an honest answer who knows, and if after possibly a retort to you not playing ball!
Id definitely go with the "I understand but Im not helping you routine" its the one Ive stuck with all along, let H know quite clearly that he can do what he chooses to do but I still want to work at our M!
Huge hugs as even if its not a pullback/stepback Im sure it hurts even more so as he has theorectically turned the children down, how old are the kids Cas old enough to tell him he's being a miserable ratbag not coming to dinner with them, my S certainly would although hes really a grown up at twenty one, even though he made me giggle the other day when I heard him tell his dad he'd talk to him when he managed to find his good manners again lol!
he has theorectically turned the children down
Good point Rabbit. Wonder what your H would say to that, Cas? Wonder if he even saw it like that??
Hi Cas
OK lets take it one thing at a time.
Not wanting to do the birthday, yes a lot depends on whether his reply was before or after your finance meeting, Lost Rabbits observations are correct. However whatever the truth, he’s said he doesn’t want a fuss, give him what he wants and don’t make one – a simple card sent to his home should be enough. He may decide that he wants to organize something with the kids on his own, that’s fine, just wish them a happy time, it’s not up to you to suggest it though.
As for the finances, surely what you should be considering is not what he wants but what is best for you? Think about that first, you need to protect yourself and the kids financially. Contact your solicitor and find out where you stand (if you haven’t already). If you decide to go the solicitor route then pass on their details to your H again, his solicitor can then deal with yours (costly though). Reiterate once again to your H that this is not your choice and whilst you don’t agree you will not stand in his way.
Then back to NC.
Good luck
My initial reaction was that he was basically saying no to the kids (probably he hasn't really thought that through). My thoughts are that you should put it back on him and say ok you will leave it to him to arrange his birthday with the kids. On the other hand you could just leave it I guess. Dust yourself off and try again.
With the finances, are they personal or business related? To me his actions show confusion - he doesn't know what to do, in any case you cannot rely on him to act in your best interests. What do you want here? What is best for you? I would proceed along those lines. Michelle always says to guard your finances; you will see this all over the MLC and other forums on this board. Regardless of your h you need to protect you and your children's financial future. Make the right decision for you.
If you don't want to put together a proposal I would just contact him and say having thought about things your prefered option would still be for the two of you to sit down and work out something together however if he prefered to do things through solicitors then here are your solicitors details and you look forward to the matter being resolved over the next few weeks.
(((Cas)))
Nell, Rabbit, Bonny and Julia....thanks so much for your feedback. I went out tonight and it was a wonderful surprise to read your opinions when I got back.
First off, about a year ago we went out for a family dinner and had a lovely night together. We walked out to the car and then H started talking about financial settlement totally out of the blue. I told the db coach and she said that she felt he panicked cos he was getting too close and it was his way of saying we've had a nice time but it doesn't change anything. She suggested that in response I should say that I would not stand in the way of settlement but I would not initiate it. I have used that same line all the way through. My solicitor agreed. She said to let him have the expense of setting up the first appointment/proposal.
A few weeks ago when we had NC H emailed and asked for my solicitor's details, stating that he wanted to get things sorted. I emailed with the details and left it at that. There's been no further mention until today. Now he expects me to put forward a proposal and I guess he is saying if I don't he will go through a solicitor. I don't understand why we can't sit and discuss it all to reach a fair compromise. His arguments against that include that other financial deals are not settled in this way, they are sorted in writing. I said, yeah but you haven't known these people for 25 years either. He maintains that he has done all the work in putting forward proposals before which is true(but not for over a year and our financial position has changed). However, on each occasion he refused to negotiate. In my mind they were therefore dummy proposals.
So this morning all was going well until the end and now he's trying to force me to do something with which I am very uncomfortable. H is brilliant at the financial side of things and this is not my area. I feel at a distinct disadvantage.
I am thinking that I will tell him to go through the solicitor. I honestly don't think that this is a preferred course of action for him as he really doesn't like paying for solicitors unnecessarily.
His email refusing the dinner was sent at 9.08am. I had left the coffee shop at about 8.40am. He said he had to work and study...he has a major exam next week and he usually works Sundays. He usually spends sat night with ow. In the meantime he is having D for lunch on Sat, his birthday. The refusal was polite and he thanked for the invitation.
I text him late this afternoon re D as I had more info about the situation we discussed this morn. He replied in the same positive manner as before so he is not in non speaking mode as he would normally be.
I feel quite hurt by his actions and I know I shouldn't be. I feel annoyed that he has been so dificult for so long, doing very little as a parent and the only time I've asked for help is in sorting our finances and he refuses to budge. I've had an extremely busy work week and I know I am very tired. I am trying not to let it get to me. I'm just not sure why he is so insistent that I initiate things. Then , on the flip side I wonder if I am being equally pig headed and if I should just surprise him and get it underway.
I will still send a birthday card to show I haven't got annoyed by his rejection of my invitation. However, I am thinking that resuming NC is the way to go in the meantime. I'll think about this overnight.
H has spent most of the day with the kids for his birthday so it was obviously just me he was saying no to. I sent him a text for his birthday and he replied thanks.
I spoke with my brother about the finances. My bro is pretty direct but has the closest relationship with H of all my family. He said it was definitely up to H to initiate proceedings and that i should use the solicitor to ensure I get the best financial outcome.
((Cas))
Dont get too down, ok he might not have wanted to spend his birthday with you YET! but on the bright side he spent it with the kids, so even though initally he said no he put some thought into that the kids wanted to see him!
Also he didnt turn into Teddy Throwing Boy as Nell and I fondly refer to our H's he continued to keep it civil and pleasant.
As for the finances if you have put forward proposals twice which he hasnt actioned whats the betting he's just throwing a spanner in again, and solicitor is his bluff, I agree with your brother make him do it through the solicitor, (why should you put energy into it again) he might be a good man under neath his MLC/A/OW but he has other people pulling his chain that you need to protect yourself and the kids from, a good solicitor will make sure you are probably covered for all eventualities.
I forgot to say that H's email to me last night also said have an enjoyable night (The kids had told him we were going to my brother's 40th)
Today I spent the day with my brother, his wife and kids. They are so gorgeous. It was fun and it distracted me from H's birthday.
My kids came home after going out to lunch with H and then spending the day together and finally having pizza for dinner. They said H was now about to study and it was after 8pm when they returned. So where is OW on H's birthday? Maybe they have something on tomorrow?
I have thought about the financial stuff and I will wait for at least 48 hours before I respond. I think I will keep communicating with him as before and see what eventuates.
As you say Rabbit at least he has kept communications positive and hasn't spat the dummy. I have to acknowledge that because it is a first.
Perhaps his more pleasant response with this issue should be recognised as a step forward rather than the usual temper tantrum and no speaking stance
(((((Cas)))))
I just got caught up over the past few days.....
My thoughts would be....not to initiate your proposal in writing, go to the solicitor instead. In my sitch everytime H has tried to engage me direct without legal representation I have refused. I have retained a lawyer for over a year now. It is expensive, this way I don't deal with H direct about the stuff that is going to cause us to fight. My H knows I will not go against him alone.
As far as your H......I think he is being pushed by someone to end the marriage. I don't see your H as really wanting a D just like mine. I see the OW as still being in the picture and the driver of the car. When OW pushes, H resists until he can't take it any longer and then he contacts you. This way he has pacified her and albeit hurtful to you he has done something. My H once said "right or wrong, I did something" in reference to filing for a D against me a year ago. Look at me, we are still not pursueing a D and we chat and have maintained contact, enjoyable contact, behind her back. Status quo......it's been like this for a while. I know it can't continue forever, what it has done though is strengthen our friendship.
I would do nothing. I would hire a solicitor and then do nothing. If he wants it, let him do the work.....maintain that.
After that you can wait and see, the true answers will reveal themselves over time.
Cas, don't stop your DB for a second. If you feel comfortable with sending H a happy b-d text or card or call.....do it. A friend would. You be his friend.
Your H is a torn man.....His nice demeanor to you tells you lots. He wants to be nice and see you and talk to you, he feels he can't. It's a MLC life in the fog. He is getting pressure from the other side. The pressure is tormenting him. He can't escape it, he has to do something.......
Go back to NC, be upbeat and friendly when he initiates. Don't ignore any of his initiating, be there when he reaches out.
I go back in thought to the day he showed up with the envelope. I have to wonder what was on his mind. I still think perhaps he was having a spell where he was checking in and testing the waters. Unfortunately for us the tug of the OW is very strong.
Again, he is a torn man. He is not near the end of the MLC.
Cas, I will check back later.....I have to run out for an errand with son. (((((Hugs))))) to you.....Don't give up yet.
Sanderika
Sanderika, I'm not sure ow has anything to do with it. I think H is very much in control in the ow situation but she is still around because she is an employee, it's convenient and she's obviously not too demanding. It's like the kids are taking over her place with him.
However, I think you're right, he's torn. He's torn because he still has feelings for me but we have been separated at his initiation for two years and his pride is standing in the way here. Not only that, he's been hurt before and he can't afford to let that happen again. So in his mind, he determines that he needs to push things through.
H has been on a long quest for personal happiness; buying expensive toys, expensive outings, holidays and overseas trips, having ow, leaving Cas and the kids and ignoring them, stop working, start new study, selling our business, buying a new house.... all things to make him happy and financial separation is the next attempt at sorting everything for his happiness.
There's been phases along the way gradually building to the one we are in. H is spending more and more time with his kids. He's communicating more fully with me and eventhough he's trying to separate from me financially he's not having the usual temper tantrum to get his own way. However, he wants me to initiate and I don't know why this is so important to him. I am in a no win then. He's much more financially literate than me. I have a solicitor. He has her details. He just threatens to proceed via her but does nothing. Of course, eventually he will. And he thinks this will make him happy.
We had a few texts last night and again they were friendly. I'm not changing anything. I do like what you said about the financial stuff causing arguments. It is an elephant sitting in the room for us. It has to be resolved. it is the way forward. It's just not me proposing it!
I have decided to press for the solicitor but to reamin friendly and upbeat and show him I am not fazed by this new stage.
You sound content with your decision Cas - it would seem appropriate for you and that in itself will serve you well.
I so feel for you right now. I fear that I have the same to come in the future.
Please continue to take care of yourself. You have done so much to regain control of your life and your dignity comes across in every word and thought .... you deserve happiness, in whichever place you can find it.
My thoughts are with you.
Cas,
For your H, by you pushing forward with a proposal it places the blame on you and removes the guilt from H.
Remember part of a MLC is to place blame on everyone else, deserving or not, which in turn gives the MLC'r a false sense of being right and justified in their decision. The MLC'r lives with enormous guilt which I believe prevents a lot of them from filing and thus reaching the ultimate end of the relationship/marriage.
If we take on the burden for them they can continue to blame us for the demise of the relationship which eliminates their guilt.
The MLC'r is constantly looking for a way out, a scapegoat. A MLC'r wants everyone to think he is the greatest guy in the world. He lives a delusional lifestyle in which the real world sees right through.
I still say if H wants it, force him to do all the work without your help. Use your solicitor only to protect your financial future and rights.
This is hard Cas, I know. We have a D pending in our courts. I do think for some of us the longer the separation continues the harder it is for a reconciliation. We have both said it. They are just not the same guys anymore.
I am ready to end mine, I gain more peace everyday with the choice. It will be ok. You and I will be ok.
Our H's are too wishy-washy with attention. I am starting to read the actions and throw out the words. It's called acceptance. It's been a long time coming. It's time.....
I hate to throw in the towel, I am stubborn and I fight for what I believe to be right. However, in this time and place I think it's probably time to drop the rope for once and for all.
(((((Cas))))) I'm right here riding in the same boat with you. I understand......is what I am saying.
Please take care, my friend.....
Sanderika
Nell and Sanderika, as always thanks.
H was at work today so once again ow drew the short straw. He had text me last night and said he was going to have a really busy day getting ready for the exam this week.
At work this morning H had a fall and hurt his leg. S had to take him crutches and as his exam has a long practical component it has to be potponed. I text him to ask what had happened and he gave details and told me about his test being postponed. Then the text convo went like this;
Cas: Get treatment, don't let it go!
H: Seeing dr at 10 2moro
Cas: ok. as a 1st aider I say rest, ice, compression, elevation
H: thanks
Cas:God I'm bossy! No texting back to agree
H: Yes dear
Cas: At least you've learnt something after so many years! I love subservient males!
H: LOL
Cas: Take it easy. Talk later
H: ok
We wouldn't have had that convo a year ago and especially after a finance discussion. Interesting!
Interesting indeed. So, what do you make of that, Cas??
I take it that your H hasn't done too much damage but just enough to bruise his pride? Mind you, having to postpone his practical exam says that it wasn't quite nothing, either. Is this an opportunity for Cas to go play Nursey??!!
Hi again Nell. It's interesting isn't it?
I have just read your posts and I am thinking again that I have had more positive contact and interactions with H since I gave up the R talk, detached and presented as a more happy, upbeat and contented person.
I won't play nursey but I will be observing from the sidelines. I have never been invited to his place so I won't go there until I'm invited. It seems H is having to learn to trust that I won't pressure him or get annoyed when he rejects my invitations.
I think Sanderika is right. He is trying not to feel guilty so he is trying to get me to initiate proceedings but I won't. Perhaps he wants me to make the decisions for him. Time will tell......
Good to hear Cas.
For what it's worth, when I told my H yesterday that I would not wait any longer if this is what he wants, I would go back to the UK and file, he went in to defence mode and said that I would have to get a second opinion on what I believed to be true as he said that he had checked and I would have to be home for a year before I could file. My sister has phoned a solicitor on my behalf and they definitely said a week is all that is required for me to be back in the country, but I have to be there. Of course, I don't want to file and I won't. It's good to see that H reacted that way and when I said to him "well, it's what you want isn't it?" he just said "long term, yes". I feel that lifts some pressure off me for a while.
Is this what your H is doing?? Playing for time and making you the fall guy?? I think that it is. I think that it is their little game. I feel that they carry enough guilt for breaking up the family and now it's our turn - they've been the bad cop and so now it's your turn, whichever way they can get us to shake it up and change the uniforms around.
Like you, I've never been to my H's place - don't even know where it is. I asked him about that yesterday and he said that he hadn't told me as I have previously threatened to go to his work to stir things and he wouldn't put it past me doing the same at his home. He also doesn't want me dropping off more of his stuff there ... I wouldn't go to H's unannounced either - I'm afraid of what I might see. My furniture with tramps clothes inside it - my photo frames with the bitch's face staring back out at me. *shudder*
For you, I know that's different - your H is not far from you and I guess that you know his address. Surely, the trust is that even with that knowledge, you haven't rocked up at all. Why do you think that he doesn't trust you?
I wouldn't go to H's unannounced either - I'm afraid of what I might see. My furniture with tramps clothes inside it - my photo frames with the bitch's face staring back out at me. *shudder*
LOL..... I can so relate to that!! However, my kids tell me there is very little evidence of her there.....at leastin sight; a photo glamour shot that she gave him last year for his b'day(not glamorous-just tacky) and a toothbrush. That's it.
Nell, interesting reaction from H re filing in the UK. His response 'long term' is also interesting. Why not in the short term?
I know where H's place is. He very excitedly shared all the photos of it with me when he bought the place but that's it.
The trust issue is just that H feels he has been hurt by me in the past and was unhappy. He is scared to trust me cos it'll just happen again.
Hi Cas,
I see that txt with H as very good.
One thing that is obvious to us is that our H's have come a long way in the manner in which they speak to us and the information they disclose. They actually have changed a lot. They aren't as distant. They are becoming forgiving with us.
He likes to be made of by you.
You have said it all in your closing line......
"The trust issue is just that H feels he has been hurt by me in the past and was unhappy. He is scared to trust me cos it'll just happen again"
All of our H's are feeling and believing the same. That is why it takes sooooooo long to change their opinions of us. It is truly very difficult. They check out of the marriage long before they leave and we have to add that time on. For most of us we don't know when that happened because we were wearing blinders to the problems.
Continue to treat him well. Especially during his days of recuperating. A thought I had, is to make him a casserole or a favorite meal and send it with one of the kids. A get well, ease his burden gesture.....no strings attached. You would do it for a friend, right? It will serve H to show you are caring and concerning and that is one thing we know they require lots of......
I dunno....it's an idea. I have done it a few times with H and the results were thankful. Thankful goes a long way, he's apt to be accepting. Then again.....it's a shot in the dark.
Take care (((((Cas))))), I hope you have a good week.
Sanderika
Text H to see how he went with doc today. An excerpt:
Cas: How did you get on at doctor?
H: Hi. Fine thanks. rest and elevate leg
(as I had suggested y'day) Much better today
Cas: I may be bossy but my advice is pretty bloody good if I say so myself!
H: yep
Cas: H be careful, that's twice in 2 days you've agreed with me
H: yes dear
Cas: Well, wait until u hear all my other pearls of wisdom!!
Then after 10 mins or so
Cas: No reply. Does that mean u don't want to hear my wisdom?
sob
H: LOL. R u picking up D?
Cas: Yes
H: Can you please call in on way through to sign some papers?
Cas: sure
So, plans changed and D was ready early so I got her first and dropped in on the way back. Keep in mind I've never been there before so I came inside and he ushered me in to the kitchen. He asked if I was ok. I said yes and he commented that I looked very pale (I had noticed that myself earlier) I said that I had some problems with my neck which I've had two weeks now and have seen the physio about. We chatted about that and he suggested a chiro. Then he gave me some pages from a magazine about one of my favourtie holiday destinations and a recipe from there that I like to cook.
Then there was a tour of the house.......every room and the garden, too. We chatted a bit longer and then we left. As we drove off D said she thought H wanted us to stay longer.
Now, especially for Nell.... the only evidence of ow was her portrait on a small wall in the bedroom, no clothes in the walk in robe, no items on counters, no photos of her or the two of them but a few of the kids.
On display was a b'day card from his parents. The card from ow was in an envelope on the bench (D told me this info)
When we left it was after 7.00pm so D and I went to Noodle Box for dinner. D rang H and asked him if he'd like us to get some dinner for him. He did so we called back with it. I sent D in as I didn't want to overdo it. H has just sent me a text to say thanks.
Hi Cas
Just been catching up on your thread. First off I hope you are well and that your neck gets better, make sure you get that seen to.
All extremely positive signs from your H Cas. To ask you to his place is a huge step on his part, he is certainly being quite warm towards you now and I feel he is starting to reach out to you, albeit slowly, but it is a huge turnaround from some months ago.
((((((Cas))))))
Hi Cas,
Yes, please get your neck and possible reason for being pale checked out. I am worried about the pale look. Could be a variety of things.
Your H inviting you into his place is soooooo tremendously huge.
It is a sure sign of trust. You were right on. Kudos!!!
I love it that you and D brought him back some take-out and he accepted with grace.
Things are not only different from a few months ago, last week as well!!!!
Keep doing what you are doing.....right now it's working.
I see things right now as very good.
I assume your week is going quite well, hope it continues.
Sanderika
Hi Oz, great to hear from you. I always look forward to hearing what you have to say because I think some of the behaviours your H was exhibiting are very similar to those I have experienced. And, it's great to hear the perspective of someone who has had success! Thanks, I am feeling that things are on the way up. I am just keeping is simple as possible.....back on the patience and no expectations mantra. Perhaps will text to morrow to see how the leg is.
Sanderika,
I think the paleness is from poor sleep as I am having to lift my neck instead of simply rolling over. I came to H's door with my pen cos I had no expectation of going inside and no thought that he would give me the full guided tour!
Neck sounds painful Cas, please get it checked although as you say the paleness is probably from sleep due to unnaturally lifting your head!
So good to hear that you got an invite to his house, a big little step
I too wonder what is in H's "my place" he never calls it home refers to our house as home!
Love the thoughtful dropping off some dinner for him, and letting D take it in so it wasnt too much was a great manouvre, definitely keep it simple, things always work for me when I just keep backed off and things simple!
Will keep checking in to see how your going!
Hi Cas
How is your neck going. I hope you have had it checked out.
((((Cas))))
Hi Rabbit and Oz, Not too much to report. thanks for popping in. Went to the physio and there seems to be a problem with my back which in turn is causing the neck problem. I have some exercises to do and then I need to go back to see the physio early next week. He says I really need anti inflammatories but with next lot of surgery coming up I can't take them.
No news re H. I try to vary the contact a little so might contact a couple of days in a row and then not for a few days. My goal was for him to invite me over to his place but didn't expect it to happen so soon and hadn't thought of it coming via a business matter. Anyway, who cares, how it was achieved! I need a new goal!
Had a text fest with H over an hour and a half. I just went back and counted 57 texts! Of course many were yes, no and ok but we covered lots of topics and there was some heckling and fun teasing, too. Again I finished the convo first.
I told him I usually sent texts so I wasn't intrusive but sometimes texting can be confusing for a proper convo so if it was ok with him next time I would text and then if it suited him I would ring. He replied, "Sure"
Baby steps....
Sounding good Cas! baby steps for sure, it will be nice to chat on the phone, I really miss hearing H's voice we have been txting and msn'ing a lot but he has a really poor phone signal were he lives so only get to speak to him when he's here. Well hope it carries on gradually moving forward for you! Especially hope your neck and back feel better soon x
Hello Cas,
Yup!!! Baby Steps!!!!
It's definitely sounding positive for you.
A week or so ago with the solicitor talk your H was attempting to retreat back into the tunnel, IMO. As we can see he didn't stay long. IMO, your H is liking this new relationship and the new Cas is lovely and intriguing.
Keep it up Cas, it's working....
Your steady emotions and "as if" attitude is a real benefit at this point in time.
Take care, watch after yourself, (((((Cas))))).
Sanderika
Cas, that is great! I'm so happy that you had that text stuff with h. I believe things like that are the building blocks. Although, absence makes the heart grow fonder. Let him digest this a little. Well you know the spiel about pursuing etc you know how far to go and how far not to go
Cas, I wanted to ask you a few Oz questions. Are you on FB? So, has he dropped the finance stuff now?
Hi Julia, How are you? There is something different happening lately. H seems to want to be in contact. I took a risk to ask if I could phone next time. His positive response was not what I expected. And of course, If I suggest calling he could still very well say no.
He hasn't mentioned finances except today he said he had a massive mortgage. I was wanting to reply,"Well that was your choice" but instead I went for the more upbeat and said "I can only suggest you find yourself a wealthy and generous lover" He replied, "Prob need 2 or 3" The finance stuff is just on holiday. it will be back very soon, I imagine.
So now I need to think about my next contact. walks and texts have a tick, birthday dinner a cross. I might get him a lotto ticket as my contribution to his mortgage.
All sounds positive Cas. The next step of course would be to establish phone contact and see how it goes from there. Continue to be patient and have no expectations. You seem to be doing well indentifying what does and doesn’t work.
Well done for biting your lip re the mortgage, it's that sort of comment that normally slips out and creates a backslide.
Oops, Julia, sorry I forgot to say that I don't have facebook. Sorry!
Tonight H forwarded me a copy of a charity newsletter that he receives and told me to check out one of the photos in it because he thought one of the women in the photo looked like my best friend. (He was right too, it did look like her.)
This is the first time he has initiated contact on anything other than essential business/kid stuff.
Whao sounds like a positive.
Try to continue to be patient though, getting too pushy now could cause him to retreat again.
Any news on the finances?
Hi Bonny, Good suggestion........I think you're right about him retreating, I will just keep quiet over the weekend. I did reply to the email just to comment that the lady did look like friend.Nothing further on finances at this point but it does need to be done, regardless.
I usually don't give too much thought to ow but occasionally I hear of an outing they have planned and it really gets to me!! They are going with another couple from work to the races on Tuesday. They did this last year, too. I know I can't control it but I guess I'm writing here to acknowledge it and then say, to myself, "Get over it!"
(((((Cas)))))
I have the same issue.
I just posted on my thread. My topic is the same as yours.
I can't figure this out either. It's simple sometimes.
We can't get over it. I don't know how, Lord knows I have tried.
I just can't.
It literally eats me up when I hear of him with someone else. Of course, in the back of my mind, I know the truth about H being with someone else. It's still cuts me hard though.
Cas, it's too much to handle. You would think after all this time we have been doing this we would be harder in thought and carefree about it.
"Get over it" for me isn't an option, I have proven it's not.
I don't want my marriage to end.
(((((Cas)))))
Sanderika
The thing is Sanderika that I sense H moving closer to me with the house tour, the texting, the email, saying that I can phone him and then I hear of their day out and it really gets to me. I guess I then feel as if it's a waste of time, and I've just allowed greater cake eating. Then I feel defeated.
Way back the DB coach said not to focus on ow at all.
However, when I look at it from ow's pov she's not getting the real H either. She sees him once ot twice a week and the outings are the things that suit H.
I've got Christmas in mind and then I'll reassess. I'm not really interested in friendship, just civil dealings with him.
H emailed me today; "Hi,I told the kids last week I would not be able to have dinner with them this Tuesday, as I will be going to the races. I hope this will not cause a problem. I will find another night to make up.thanks,H"
Eventhough I am pi$$ed that he has a social life I notice a difference in his messages-
still doesn't use my name but the rest feels warmer to messages from the past.
H called in this afternoon with something for D. Called out to say hi to me and I came out to the living room and we all had a chat. It seemed awkward to begin and then it was fine and he was being 'silly' with the kids. we were all laughing as he left.
Its so frustrating isnt it Cas, they can behave like the former loving H but the truth however painful is that they just dont want to and as I think SP said earlier on here is that "love is a choice" but as you say civil and pleasant would be sufficient! ((cas))
Rabbit, I'm getting very pleasant exchanges with H.In fact, these are the most consistently friendly exchanges we have had since the 'good old days'. He doesn't seem to hurry me along anymore. However, while he is proving to be more reliable and certainly a friendly communicator I need more. Am I just too bloody impatient?
I have loads of friends and I want him as a H, not a friend. I'm lonely at night, I want someone to share goals with, to celebrate the kid's achievements with and to explore the world with.
I know that the best new relationships start as friendship but they don't build as slowly as this. I have set Christmas as my target and then our finances should be sorted. If we haven't progressed past friendly emails and texts I am signing out.
I feel exactly the same, Xmas is cut off for me really, I dont want to start 2010 in limboland, so if need be I shall become single again officially and if H ever gets his act together well maybe but it will certainly be on the grounds of two new people meeting.
((((Cas)))))
Our H's are seeming the same.
Talking nicer, informing us of their day to day, seeking us out for a hello, being considerate in our presence, I could go on and on....
The OW are still here.....
What do we really do with that. It's all great that our H's are being kinder to us and letting their guard down with information, to me that is a huge bonus that they are beginning to trust us again....
How long do we have to wait it out now....when are they going to give the OW the boot?
My friend here, a guy friend - not romantic just a great friend, told me last week, "I think if you begin to go through with the D in December....D will be begging to come back. D will be on your doorstep everyday and basically behaving like you did when he left at the very beginning." He knows my H and I very well.
My problem is this....I don't want that to bring H back. I want H to voluntarily want back in my life. It will be false to have him return only if I put a gun to his head.
Our H's need to remove the OW from their lives and live without OW for a period of time befroe they will truly be able to see us again for the wonderful women and partners we are.
I am so grateful for the friendship we have created...I worry every day that this is all there will be for us now.
(((((Cas))))) I am struggling here. I think you and I are in very similar places almost at the same hour in our sitches. It's scary, huh?
What do we do?
Sanderika
How long do we have to wait it out now....when are they going to give the OW the boot?
Interesting. Maybe it wouldn't matter so much if you were asking yourself when are YOU going to give HIM the boot?
I can't see where he is any better than the OW. Why can you hate and despise her and yet him be doing the same thing? Doesn't make sense to me. I really don't see that after 4 years that you can possibly think this is really working. Just because a man doesn't act likes he hates you doesn't mean that he is in love with you in the way that you want.
I have known hundreds if not thousands of men that just never seem to choose the woman that just keeps on loving him no matter what. Oh sure, us men will use that type of woman and take whatever she gives him. However the reality of the way I have seen is most men is that they need some sort of a challenge. They would rather chase than be chased deep inside. Gives them a challenge. When there is no challenge and it becomes too easy, then it becomes boring and we look for the next challenge in our lives. Why do you think men are so involved in sports? We are competitve. We love a new challenge.
What is the reason that SO many men on this site woke up and suddeny realized the error of thier ways after YEARS of neglecting their wives? Why now are the men on here suddenly reading books, taking counseling, pleading for our help, and doing everything in their power to win back the wayward? Why didn't the do these things when the wife was crying and begging him to do so? Haven't you noticed that it wasn't UNTIL the woman showd him ENOUGH. I am not SURE what I want. I think I want out... Haven't you noticed that as a fine thread throughout the posts of the men on here? You need to think about that because it is the truth and the reality
Just because you as a woman doesn't undertand that doesn't make it not true. I would think after four years that you would be wondering if this really is working or not. I would venture to say NOT.
Don't mean to discourage you, but it is sad that you really are wasting so much of your life caught up in this that you refuse to let go of these men and realize there are many many more fish in the sea that WILL treat you right.
Or is it that YOU too are addicted to the challenge of wanting someone that doesn't want you?
Well last night I couldn't sleep. I am aware that my relationship with H is in a much better place than it has been for years but it's still not enough. I couldn't sleep last night. I tossed and I turned. For the first time in ages I thought about the issue because I realised that I was getting too involved and letting go of the detachment. I have been enjoying the contact with him. However, this isn't enough. So while I tossed and turned Sanderika and Gucci posted.
I'm on my way to work now so no time for a long post. However, I do need to analyse what's working and what's not. I understand what Gucci is saying and I guess it's fear that stands in the way for me.
What do others think?
Hi Cas
I can see Gucci's point of view as 4 years is a long time to spend working on a R when you could have perhaps found happiness with another who would treat you with the greatest respect and love you deserve. But having said that each situation is different and each person makes a conscious decision on how long they will spend DBing with the hope of a reconcilliation. For some they may move on very quickly, others not at all and others after a lengthy period of time.
I know for me, I would be in it for the long haul and I think I would have a hard time putting a time frame on it. Look at me, still having issues over what I think are really petty things but still I continue to smile and DB my little tooshie off.
You have had a lot to deal with in those 4 years, ill health, surgery and more surgery to come, which in a way makes DBing a bit more of a lengthy procedure for you as you have to focus 100% on yourself when getting ready for surgery and for the recovery period in order to get well, so whilst it may be 4 years for you Cas it has been more likely part time for 4 years whilst you looked after yourself.
Given that H is now making some more positive steps toward you, I wouldn't exactly be in any hurry to put an end to anything until you give these changes a bit more time and also you have to think that you have some more surgery coming up and I don't think you should be adding to your list of things to worry about or think about fixing.
OK Gucci,
You got me.....I am scared. Cas has admitted that fear is standing in her way too.
I know exactly what you are saying to be true.
I wanted to acknowledge your comments. I need to think on this a bit. I think you hit me hard with your take on the sitch. If you don't mind keeping your eye on Cas and me here on her thread, I think we would both be accepting of your point of view.
Gucci, I will post more here after I sort out my thoughts. Cas won't mind I am sure as she and I are in the same boat.
Oz, we have seen progress in our sitches and that is why we are still here. I don't want to D my H, I don't think Cas wants one either. I don't really want to be a part of a relationship with the way things are either. As long as I have seen changes and progress in our friendship I feel that it has been important to stay around as well.
I am fence sitting as well I think. I can't decide how to proceed. One minute I am ready to proceed with my D on Dec. 4th and the next minute I have very cold feet. I am at best undecided.
H seems to come around and throw me a bone at just the right time. I understand what I just said, Gucci.
Gucci and Oz help us out here.....please!
Sanderika
Hi, Cas,
In my sitch, here's what worked:
1) Giving him ample time to experience the new me in small, no-pressure, doses. This meant phone emails, phone calls and one joint trip to Disneyland that did not involve sharing a hotel room. This started around March-ish and went on through July (4-5 months). And when I say 'started' I mean the increase in overall, positive communication to the point where we enjoyed interacting with each other.
2) Seeing him in person for a few days at a time, then leaving completely and going dark for a few days at a time. Being there gave him a chance to interact more fully with the new me, and gave me the opportunity to introduce some flirtation/sexual attraction to the equation. Leaving and going dark made sure the pressure never built to a critical level, and it gave him an opportunity to miss me and reflect on what a good time we'd had. This lasted was July - September, 2-3 months. Near the end, I was with him in the house M-F but gone on weekends.
Once we moved into the same bedroom and started sleeping together, I was pretty sure I had him. OW was so distant geographically that I didn't have to worry about him sleeping with both of us.
3) From sleeping together til ultimatum time wasn't very long - maybe 4 weeks. And the ultimatum was delivered fairly gently, and without a hard deadline. ("I don't know how long I can wait.") He ditched OW about 3 days after the ultimatum. How did I know he was ready for the ultimatum? He brought the situation up himself. He said he knew he couldn't continue to be in relationships with both of us. I hadn't been planning the ultimatum, but when the lead-in got thrown, I acted. (It's on p. 109 of my thread, I think.)
So from the point where communication improved and became positive, it took about 8 months to get to ditching OW and re-committing to our R.
In your sitch, OW is right close by, though, right? That changes the dynamic a bit for you. For me, when I first entered the sitch in March, I knew I didn't have the cred to lay down an ultimatum and win. So I invested the time to build up the cred and it took about 6-8 months.
If there is forward progress with your H, then yes, I would advise patience. Use the time to keep re-building your cred. Don't do it forever, though.
Hope that helps!
Dia
I understand only too well the fear that both you Sanderika and Cas are feeling.
I have been there and am once again feeling fear to a degree with my latest little hiccup.
I was unable to follow through on some of Gucci's advice due to fear. Lucky for me I subconciously carried out some of his advice without actually realising I was doing it and it paid off - Gucci if you are listening, thoughts on latest hiccup would be appreciated.
You have to do what you feel is right for you at this point in time. Granted fear is a very powerful emotion and can prevent us from doing things we think we should because it is basically the fear of the unknown. Once you proceed to D there is the unknown that is waiting after it.
From my perspective, any small changes in your H's attitude towards you, deserves some time to see how much further it can go. You both have shown so much patience over the last however many years and bit more time won't hurt. I would wait it out a bit longer you just never know.
Totally understand your feelings Cas and Sanderika, my H was an is my first and only love, giving up on him is gonna be a very hard thing to do, so I too can see why you feel the way you do and with both H's being so positive about things, you could just say well Ive waited this long a bit longer wont hurt, but maybe you both need to set a time when enough is enough and D is immenant and you will just have to have a wonderful second wedding if you make it back together, because to be honest wouldnt you like to see them make that sort of commitment to start again! Just getting back together might not be enough?
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts sanderika, Oz, Rabbit and Dia. I appreciate Gucci's words because they have given me plenty to think about.
I have to clarify 2 things....We have been separated 2 years and it was a few months after H left that I discovered the A. I did say I was jealous of H spending time with ow. I didn't say anything else about her. I agree with Gucci, H is as bad as ow. The only difference is that H has had points in the emotional love bank due to all the years prior to the A. OW is an employee who started working for us when I was sick.
These posts also came at a time when I am feeling emotionally overwhelmed. I seem to go ok with the DB and then a hit a snag and I let my hard work go down the drain. That happened tonight when I talked to H. He said he sensed that we were getting closer and he had to tell me that a reconciliation wasn't going to happen ever, that he wanted to be friends but he would never get back with me. It just wouldn't work. He said he would be living with OW if it wasn't for the kids. He said I needed to move on and get a new person in my life.
He finished by saying he was happy with the way our friendship had progressed but there was no use thinking of anything further cos it wasn't going to happen. H is a black and white person. he would find it hard to tell people he made a mistake in leaving. I believe him when he says he's not coming back.
I am wasting my life here. Bottom line is that H wasn't true in good times and in bad but I do love him. I am in utter confusion!!
((Cas)) If they are always going to be in your lives how do you detach completely, its so difficult, we know Gucci is right but how do we get to that point? The truth is we can't do closer/nice/friendly without getting caught up in pursuing as far as our H's are concerned they want something that actually is practically impossible.
We just need them to be civil to move on, but they want their "cake" as they dont like being seen to be unfriendly, it ruins their street cred! I suppose once you go through a time of civility you can then think about falling in love again with maybe some one new.
My personal opinion is that I don't believe your WS is going to wonder or think about coming back or make a decision on the OW until he thinks you are interested in another man.
That is why I think that social intereaction with the opposite sex is so important. It is important for him to see and important for your moving on and getting out of this hope and fear trap that you seem to be in. I have found that women seem to underestimate the power of competition. Even though you both seem to be in competition with the OW, you can't seem to see that it could very well get your WS off the fence or get you off the fence. It SHOWS that you are moving on.
You don't have to treat your WS much differently than you are now. Just some minor changes. There is nothing wrong with having a good relationship with an ex.
Sanderika. Has it ever occured to you that your WS feels the same way about you that you do about your male friend? Did you ever wonder if your male friend is hoping that if he keeps being your friend that you will fall in love with him? You sound like you have a good relationship with your male friend. What if he wonders if when you are nice to him if you are falling in love with him? What if he has people tellng him to hang in there and that you are giving him signs of falling in love when you are nice to him? What if he is thinking the same things about you that you are about your WS?
Do you see why being friends COULD be misleading? If you really want to be a friend to your WS, then it shouldn't change when you have found someone else in your life.
My take is that after all this time if you haven't proven to your WS how much you love him and what a great woman you are then what will it take? If he won't chase you and start to see that you are his true love when you change course, then he probably isn't coming back no matter what. IF he really loves you then he won't be able to let you go without HIM making an effort at some point.
What if he did come back now? How are you going to trust him that it won't happen again? What if he comes back to you and then says he is going to be friends with the OW? How are you going to have the leverage to not tolerate that if you don't have it now?
Ultimatums are not what I am talking about here. It is a quiet dignity, a quiet new found self confidence and yet common courtesy that you display. Just a big enough change to allow him to WONDER if you still are IN love with him and IF there is someone else. I am sorry that it takes them feeling you have let go before they may make an effort to come back. I am sorry that there are no guarantees. There just isn't any guarantees. The guarantee is that there ARE millions of men out there that WILL treat you as if you are in a mutual love relationship and probably make you ask yourself why you wasted so much time on your WS and even get you to ask yourself what you ever saw in a man that hurt you so deeply. You would probably be saying to yourself. NEVER AGAIN will I try to get a person back that want to leave. At least that seems to be a common theme once you are emotionally dead to the relationship. The key then would be to advance toward that goal.
Isn't it funny in a way how folks are often told in C that they have to love their spouses and not treat them as possessions?
... and that no small part of why Gucci's advice DOES work is that the WAS does treat you as his possession and is indeed afraid he might lose it or have it taken by someone else.
(No, I didn't mean funny haha)
So tonight, I have had several texts from H. So he's told me earlier that I shouldn't hope for any reconciliation cos it's not going to happen but that said he's still in contact. So reading into Deep's comment he is still 'looking after' his possession-me. He said, "Go out and get somebody else" but in the next sentence says "hopefully we can remain friends as we have been up until now." Have I interpreted correctly.... I don't want you as a partner but I'll keep a close eye on you anyway.
H told me today that he cared for me. I know he does but it's not enough. I just need the courage to take the steps Gucci suggests.
H made comment that he knows that I am always out but obviously he's not concerned because he knows it is with my female friends. I'm not sure how to make that more mysterious as I have no unattached male friends.
I have an unattached male friend from interstate and I can so relate to what Gucci has said to sanderika. I never call him. I don't have to because he calls me all the time. We're friends. I'm nice to him but that's it.
I need to read and digest this info for a while and see what action to take.
Sanderika,
I just had one thought. You said that you knew that your h would come back if you proceeded with divorce but that you didn't want him to come back this way and you wanted him to do it of his own accord. While I totally understand this, I ask you would you rather be right or happy? If him coming home would make you happy and pull you out of this holding pattern then why do you not do it? At the moment why would your h come home when he has the best of both worlds friendship with you and ow. Most people do not move unless they are forced into some kind of crisis. Why would he make a move if he is comfortable where he is at the moment? My question to you is what is your goal and what means can you use to take you there? You deserve happiness.
(((Cas))) sorry for the hijack there. I just wanted to point out that when your h left was his intention not to have any relationship with you. I'm assuming as most of the WAS's here seem that way. You got him to be friends and being friends is a rung on the ladder. Of course he will say he doesn't want anymore at the moment because the next step would take him out of his comfort zone at the moment and cause him to face some issues in his life. It is all about moving to the next step and using the means at your disposal to get there. I would have a think about that. I know what your h said was discouraging but don't let it discourage you from your goal if that is what you still want.
Hello Ladies and Gucci,
Like Cas, I too am deep in thought over this latest turn in conversation. I am gathering my thoughts and will post here in more detail.
One thing I want to say is my H and I were definitely not friends of any sort when this sitch started. He hated me and the ground I walked on. I was not too impressed with him either. It has been since about 4 months post-bomb that H and I started to rekindle our friendship it has grown stronger with time at a fairly steady pace.
Cas, How has the friendship road been travelled for you?
I think we should dissect this topic in baby steps or we will all get buried in information, AGREE?
I am sorry Cas to hijack your thread on this....it is a topic we both need help with. I hope you don't mind.
((((Hugs Everyone)))))
Sanderika
Julia,
I do not actually know if my H would come back if I go ahead with the D. I am not sure I said that he would. If he would it would be easy and done a long time ago.
I want to be right and happy at the same time.
I agree with the nature of the holding pattern and it's unfairness. I am not the one in a MLC. I want to give my H as much time as he needs to come out of this. I do see progress. I am just wondering if he ever will at this point. My H and marriage are very precious to me, as everyone's is on this BB.
I saw my H through cancer and it was a long, trying and tiring road. I have given the MLC he is in as a sickness that needs time and patience and love and committment. Am I really wrong??
I love this man with all my heart, he is the love of my life.
I know thiere is an answer to this like most problems in life.
I am seeking the answers just as much now as I was over 4 years ago.
Thanks you Julia, I appreciate your wisdom. I understand your sitch and realize where you have been as well.
(((((Julia)))))
Sanderika
(((((Cas)))))
I might be numb...er than a hake, but I see that your H is still on the fence about your sitch.
He seems to contradict himself almost like he is trying to convince himself, and not you, where he stands.
I do not think or believe for one second your H is done.
Sanderika
I am not the one in a MLC. I want to give my H as much time as he needs to come out of this.
He isn't in MLC. You have diagnosed wrong. He IS however in a 4 year affair. You have convinced YOURSELF of this MLC diagnosis.
Regarding the "friendship." It is fine to be friends and have a friendly relationship. He is WITH another woman and is lying to her and lying to you. What kind of a friend does those things to ANY woman, let alone TWO women fighting for him that he is tellng both that he loves??? If you think that his way of friendship is what true friendship is all about then I agree that you should continue on this way. Why aren't YOU asking these things to yourself and wondering if he IS being a moron for this limbo he has you in? If you doing all the giving and hoping and waiting and having patience and letting this tear you apart deep down inside while you watch a man you love and agreed to spend your life with is a good friendship, then I have to tell you that I am wrong on friendship. If coming and going when he pleaes and letting you hang on the "hope" that he will come out of this is being a good friend, then I agree again that you should just keep on keeping on..
My take is that you can be JUST the kind of friend to him that he is to you. I haven't said to withdraw your friendhsip. I am just suggesting that your way hasn't worked. It really hasn't. Two to four years is more than enough time for ANY man to know that he loves you and CHOOSES to be with you. My wife told me that the best advice about men she ever got was from her mother. "Why do you want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with you?" (good advice MIL) My wife has never forgotten it and said it was the smartest advice she ever got when a man was giving her mixed signals and was all wishy washy. She said she always moved on and started seeing others and they ALWAYS tried to come back at some point. ALWAYS.
A man who LOVES you isn't wishy washy about what he wants. He KNOWS what he wants. He doesn't WANT to LIVE WITHOUT you.
Has it been so long that you have forgotten how much better a relationship is that is MUTUAL? Where the man does some pulling and as much giving to you BECAUSE he cherishes you? Why don't you see that you deserve that type of treatment?
We CARE ladies. We would love to see you reconcile with your WS's. Just love it. I do have to tell you though that I very seldom see the approach you seem to be invested in as working very well. The man just keeps right on in la la land because he CAN. Why would he want to give up TWO women that want him when he can get needs met at both ends? What motivation does HE have? That you have seen the error of YOUR ways?
Most times loving someone is loving them in the way that gives them the most growth. Allowing them to be responsible for their actions. Allowing them to FEEL what they may have done or lost. Letting them realize that the decision isn't all their decision anymore and that even though you will be their friend, you WILL take care of yourself and not be used or taken advantage of because of your giving nature.
That is my take. I think you deserve better and think that you should show them that you not only know it, but WILL get better.
If they want to come along with you and your new life adventure then jump on the train now because it is moving on down the track with or without you. Makes no difference to me. I have a life to live and I am going to live it to the fullest.
Most of the men I know in my life experience RESPOND much better to that. Much better. They are moved TOWARD the challenge for some reason. If not, then it is a waste of time anyway. That is my observation and experience to maximize you chances of reconcilitation.
Feeling tired and unwell tonight. I am so grateful for all the contributions. Hijacks always welcome!! The more I read, the better I understand. I'll be back tomorrow night to elaborate. Take care,
Cas
(((((Gucci)))))
Thank you so much for being gentle and kind to us.
Your words are hitting home. You have written to us because you care and it comes through in a warm manner. Your "take" does make perfect sense and says truth.
I actually have tears reading your words and I think it is because I know you are right and it feels like you know us. Also the pain is not buried very far below the surface.
My H and I were high School sweethearts, we have been together for a very long time. We grew up together basically. I know him very well. He and I worked very hard for the same goals. We have a son together, we have acquired many assets together. I do believe that my H was in a MLC and that now you are right he is just a WAS having an affair (a long term affair). I guess I see that your words are true, he isn't going to end his "new found" lifestyle for me and son.
I need to stop being scard to be without him. I need to learn to accept that things between us are forever changed. I can be friendly and kind to him, I need to move forward in my life with my son and without my H. The problem is how. How do I do it? I am like a car stuck on the ice. I just seem to spin my wheels a little forward and a little back actually not moving off the ice at all.......
Sanderika
Hi Cas
Lots to think about here, I agree with Gucci. Thinking back my H came half way across the country to be with me once he found out I'd been out platonically with his friend and that was before we were M. Perhaps we are acting like the WS in that we only want our H back cos they've moved on. Time to move on ourselves and see how it plays out?
I've got a new mantra, the 3 Ds - Dignity (in my actions and dealing with others, not only my H), Detachment (which involves loving detachment, GAL stuff), Determination (the resolve to carry through what I feel needs to be done, when it needs to be done without fear).
Friends who cheat on you and then try and act the smarmy 'let's be friends' do you need them? Civil and courteous is enough for me too.
Hi Cas
You certainly have lots to think of here. The only thing I can add is that Gucci is right in that if there is the thought that they have lost you they suddenly want you again.
My H tried to act as though he didn't care if I went and met someone else, said it wouldn't worry him. A few of his close friends kept telling him that they knew he could never live with that thought, at that point his jealous streak kicked in and that is when the hissy fit started because deep down he knew they were right and I too knew he would not take that well - Gucci was correct once he thought he was going to lose me, he chose me and chased me.
One thing my H said to me was that he respected the new found confidence and respect that I seemed to have developed.
Hi Oz,
I know what you mean entirely but I really can't imagine where I am going to meet guys to go out with at this point. Or perhaps, I don't really want to? Although, it is true that I don't imagine myself as a single for the rest of my days! I am fairly social and H even made a point about that the other day.
Either way, in summary I hear Gucci saying maintain the friendship but get out there. H has to be pushed which hasn't happened until now because he's known I'm around for him. I know I can't live like this. I am thankful for the progress H and I have made and I honestly don't think it's over. However, I deserve more than this and it's time to separate it all and get on with making plans for me.
Either way, in summary I hear Gucci saying maintain the friendship but get out there. H has to be pushed which hasn't happened until now because he's known I'm around for him. I know I can't live like this. I am thankful for the progress H and I have made and I honestly don't think it's over. However, I deserve more than this and it's time to separate it all and get on with making plans for me.
You hit the nail on head here Cas. I know you can't and wouldn't expect you to suddenly start going out and meet someone. You have to be ready in your mind and heart to do that.
But what you have acknowledged is that H is comfortable in the knowledge that you are there and he is comfortable rolling along as is. Of course you can't live like that forever, you are still young enough to enjoy life with someone else who wants to share in the joys of life with YOU. I like you don't think your H is done but you are still entitled to go out and enjoy life regardless. You have put in an extraodinary amount of effort and shown great patience, but you do need to think of yourself for a bit now Cas and what Cas needs and what will bring Cas the happiness that she deserves.
((((((((Cas)))))))
Wish I was closer to you as well, I think we would get along very well together, hopefully one day we will be able to meet.
Thanks so much Oz. It's good to have thoughts validated.
I talked to my boss yesterday and told her that I felt like I was treading water. I've been through all this 'stuff' over 5 years and what for? I'm still in the same job and house and still doing the same things. I need to do stuff for me. It's just tricky at the moment with D's schooling and sport.
Like you, I am sure we would get along very well and I think it's a shame that we can't give personal details here. However, when I next come to Melbourne which I do quite often I will post so we can meet somewhere. I love my times in the city. Last Christmas I stayed in Flinders La. It was fantastic.
I wouldn't be too hard on yourself Cas about being in the same job, house etc, you have had a lot to deal with such as your surgery and yes kids and school and their social/sporting activities do make it that bit harder.
I think even if you just start to do some things that you want that don't require you to move or anything drastic like that, it will feel like you are mixing things up a bit.
It would be lovely to meet, so please do let me know when you are next here.
Gotta agree on that Cas, much like what I posted on rockedworld's thread.
Sounds like I'm also geographically closer to you than the folks across the pond. I've been known to pop by Oz for vacations.
And let me know if you're ever in my neck of the woods to get a Sling at the Long Bar.
Deep, I am ready to meet for that Sling at the Long Bar!(And the Gold Coast has plenty of drinking spots when you next visit!)
Today I have been checking airfares and long service leave. I plan to take a trip later next year. So many places to visit, not enough time or money! I love Asia so want to revisit a few countries and then head to US for some time with a friend I met while overseas over 25 years ago.
Like you, I am sure we would get along very well and I think it's a shame that we can't give personal details here.
Oh come on ladies - work it out, just as Rabbit and I did!!
Good to hear from you Nell!
Hi Cas - I'm lurking but just not sticking around for long!
May write a few lines on my thread later ... I see that Gucci has visited with you and Sanderika ... will catch up with that more later.
Hope that you are OK - things seem to be on the move. (((Cas)))
(((((Cas)))))
I am not ready to date. I have no desire to do this right now in my life. I feel I need time to recharge my soul and heal from this even if it's only in part.
I have a court date coming up (12/4/09) for our 5th attempt at an initial appearance where our D (which H filed for on 10/3/08) will start rolling on down the track. At that hearing temporary custody of son is awarded and preliminary child/spousal support is awarded. The course is also mapped out regarding what needs to be done (appraisals, etc...) for the D to reach a conclusion. I am not looking forward to that date. I don't have a choice in not going forward though as it appears given my frame of mind about not wanting to shake things up by dating. I feel I need to go forward on the 4th.
For those out of the loop......H postponed all of the previous 4 appointments in court to work on the reconciling of the marriage.
My H and I chatted yesterday about the sitch....I will post more on here after I get to work this morning. It's not long but it did shed some light on where things stand.
Cas, I don't think your H is done either. I think it is a pullback for sure. He admitted outright a few days ago that he sensed "THE TWO OF YOU WERE GETTING CLOSE". It was so obvious for us all. He heard the message loud and clear as well and for the time being he got scared and retreated back into the tunnel.
I got to go......I will post again within a couple of hours. I want all your opinions on my chat with H.
Take care all.....
Sanderika
I believe that you ladies are proving my point even more.
It seems like you want what you can't have. You want the person that is rejecting you. You want the guy who is distant and unavailable much of the time. The more you get rejected the more you seem to want to try and figure it out and get him back...
It is human nature.. We want what we can't have and we lose interest in that which is too easy and available all the time. We take it for granted until we don't have it...
I sure wish you could see that principle. It seems that you can't even though you are actually proving that it is true. Both of you have mentioned numerous times you don't feel like "dating" and socially interacting with the opposite sex, and yet you do feel like winning back a man who has shown by his actions that he is selfish has another woman and a host of other unacceptable behaviors... and yet you are still focused and ok with that. Certainly doesn't make sense to me unless you factor in wanting what we can't have.....
Forget about the dating. That is cart before the horse. GO OUT and have fun and leave the expectations home. You are worrying and bringing things up that aren't even happening yet. It is silly to think that way.. Be open. Go out and start LIVING your life to the fullest. That is all I am saying. Be open. Try to quit saying "I don't feel this or feel that or I this or I that.. Live in the moment. Quit worrying about "dating".. Just go out and take it as it comes. You may be pleasantly surprised. Closed minds aren't productive.
Which means... It probably would work far better on your WS too.
It's amazing how desperate people on here seem to be, but when they get the best advice in the world as Gucci stated above, they fight it tooth and nail.
Burt
I don't think people are fighting it, just trying to understand it. As with most DBing it is the opposite to your (ones) instinct. As my mathematics teacher once said to me, you don't have to understand it to just do it. Oh, that's MWD too!
P.S - (((Cas)))
That's right out of the book, though. Especially the talk about
cheeseless tunnels.
Some people want to
be right more than they want to
do what is right.
Burt, I'm not sure which aspect of Gucci's advice you seem to think I am 'fighting tooth and nail.' If you read several of my posts in the last few days you will see that the only point that I expressed any difficulty with was dating to which Gucci has responded.
I'm sure it wasn't intentional but given the fact that you have not posted here before I found the tone of your post somewhat demeaning.
Cas, How has the friendship road been travelled for you?
I think we should dissect this topic in baby steps or we will all get buried in information, AGREE?
How has the friendship road fared for you?
tonight when I talked to H. He said he sensed that we were getting closer and he had to tell me that a reconciliation wasn't going to happen ever, that he wanted to be friends but he would never get back with me. It just wouldn't work. He said he would be living with OW if it wasn't for the kids. He said I needed to move on and get a new person in my life.
sorry but that is a $hit a$$ thing for a friend to say. Please tell me when he said that you said, OK. Grabbed your cell phone, locked yourself in the car and called someone.
I have been reading what you girls have been posting and I can't seem to figure out what you are all trying to accomplish.
Try to be your husband's friend while they have an affair so that someday you can be lovers again?
Some people want to be right more than they want to do what is right.
Trent, perhaps for you to get a clearer picture of my story you would need to read my whole thread. My reactions have nothing to do with me wanting to be right. It is more through lack of confidence and fear. I have a multitude of reasons for feeling this way. I'm not saying it is correct thinking or that it is not going down 'cheeseless tunnels' (as I have already expressed a few posts back).
Trent, perhaps for you to get a clearer picture of my story you would need to read my whole thread.
As robx said yesterday, every "unique" situation out there seems to have an awful lot in common with the others.
My reactions have nothing to do with me wanting to be right. It is more through lack of confidence and fear. I have a multitude of reasons for feeling this way.
As long as you trust those feelings over the reality of how your actions to date have worked out, you're not going to get very far.
I'm not saying it is correct thinking or that it is not going down 'cheeseless tunnels' (as I have already expressed a few posts back).
But you seem content to keep trying the same ol' same ol'. Because that's what you feel
should work.
No problem; we'll be here.
Burt, I'm not sure which aspect of Gucci's advice you seem to think I am 'fighting tooth and nail.' If you read several of my posts in the last few days you will see that the only point that I expressed any difficulty with was dating to which Gucci has responded.
I'm sure it wasn't intentional but given the fact that you have not posted here before I found the tone of your post somewhat demeaning.
Please know, I was not trying to be demeaning and I happen to respond to your thread while responding to Gucci in a very broad way.
As one that has been on these boards for over 10 months affter successfully pulling my marriage out of the fire I found it helpful to many when someone shocks them, gets them upset (like you)and that leads them to go back and look at their own thread for advice from the past to see what has been working, what has not, and what you have not tried yet.
I learned early on, thankfully, that when something is not working, try something different. Fear is something you must overcome, but when you do, it is a lot easier to make calculated decisions and ones that are not based on emotion.
You can do this, by the way I have read your thread.
Burt
Try to be your husband's friend while they have an affair so that someday you can be lovers again?
Excellent point Steve McQueen. That is exactly what this is about. I certainly don't believe it is just because they want them as friends. I do believe that a WS can usually see and feel right through that. Maybe there is something we are missing...
Maybe there is something we are missing...
The chase.
No chase. No challenge. No interest.
You got it.. I think that is part of the problem these women are having. They WANT to understand all this talk of chase, and challenge and interest, but can't accept the fact that they may NEVER actually understand. Not understanding doesn't make it any less true.
I would hope that they quit trying to understand and just accept it.
For example. I can try and try to understand why my wife thinks her way about things important to her and I can try for the rest of my life to keep understanding those things. I may never understand. HOWEVER, not understanding has nothing to do with how I should treat her. I just accept that I don't understand and as a matter of fact I don't HAVE to understand her in all ways. I just have to know what the reality tells me. Then just go with the reality...
I mean.. Why does my wife love me? Why does she think I am all that? How can she talk to her girlfriends for hours at a time and never be at a loss for words or something to talk about?
She could very well say the same things about me.
It isn't about understanding. It is about ACCEPTING the reality. The reality is that these men have not responded to years of hanging in there. The reality is that these women are so absorbed in trying to get these men back that they are still talking "baby step".. I could have walked all the way from New York to California taking baby steps in less time.
They can hate the OW and yet can't see that their WS are no better than the OW. They need to start placing the blame where it should go.. Right square in the lap of the man blatantly having an affair and acting like it is no big deal. All the while these poor women are reduced to what we are seeing on here. These men have helped these women to lose all bearings on self esteem and what they are in REALITY putting up with.
Then they are defensive when we point it out.
I don't know..
Hi all....
I am going to ignore posting about my conversation with H yesterday here, I might post it on my thread.
Cas, I am going to speak for you here as well, I hope you don't mind.
All points being made are reaching us....we ARE beginning to get it.
IMO, you all seem to know us better than we know ourselves. Perhaps we do not trust our own judgement. I believe we are afraid of the unknown, of being alone for the first time in our lives (for me since I was 15). I have been involved in a relationship with my H for 31 of my 46 years. It is very hard to accept and release the only lives Cas and I have known. I do love the H I knew, I always will. I guess I need to realize the H of today is not the same person. I am in tears as this is so raw. I do not like what is happening in my life. We do not like living this way. We want love in our lives. We own the 50% of the mistakes made in the marriage. We have overcome and changed (trust me, we have). We have done the work and DB for ourselves in the hopes it would bring our H's home. In both of our cases that was not meant to be. We have at least salvaged us in the process and are a whole lot stronger than when the sitches began (again, trust me...we are) For me I am also tired and my self-esteem and self-worth have taken a huge hit. I have only begun to recover those over the past year. It is going to be a long process for me as this is the most painful experience I have ever lived.
I think it fair to tell you that I allowed my H to remain in my life for the past 4 years, we have maintained contact including sex from 4 months post-bomb to as recent as 1 1/2 weeks ago. I think that is another reason I can't seem to let go. I am not a fool, I understand the cake eating theory. I wanted to be with him and I own that choice as well.
I for one am listening very carefully. I actually have a D court initial appearance scheduled for December 4th and I plan on moving forward with it. It is your words that have me convinced this so-called relationship I have with my H is unhealthy and dead-ended.
I would like to remain friends during this process because of our history and we have a S13 together. As of right now I am growing bitter towards him due in part to the conversations you guys are having with us. I also am in a great deal of pain and very emotional, not sleeping well and having a hard time concentrating in anticipation of the 4th. I need to concentrate on being strong and focused. I do not want to backslide for a second on all my DB efforts and progress.
I have a feeling I am not prepared for the conflict this will cause between us. Am I being silly to assume that we can still be friendly. Maybe I am missing this point though, maybe I shouldn't care what he thinks. We have worked hard at communicating and friendship. Perhaps you are right that I have a misconstrued idea of what friendship is with him.
I am really at a loss on how to not create an atmosphere with H where he hates me again. I really could not handle that. Does anyone understand what I am trying to say? I guess I have forgiven him his faults and wrongs to us. I think that has been important to me in DB and being strong through this ordeal.
Is it possible that H and I have come to a place where we both understand that a D is the only way out and that all of the work we have done to date will not be reversed?
Another thing to note, I have never wanted the D either. It was H who filed and H who has postponed 4 times to attempt reconciling. Maybe you all would think if I don't want it let H do the work. If H is only interested in status quo then I should go forward, right???
I understand I have rambled.....I can't really help it. You can call it journalling.....any replies....go easy on Cas and me.
Thank you all very much for helping with this life changing situation. Your words and thoughts are not falling on deaf ears.
Stubborn and Stuck In The Mud maybe, Deaf? No way....
Sanderika
My friend here, a guy friend - not romantic just a great friend, told me last week, "I think if you begin to go through with the D in December....D will be begging to come back. D will be on your doorstep everyday and basically behaving like you did when he left at the very beginning." He knows my H and I very well.
My problem is this....I don't want that to bring H back. I want H to voluntarily want back in my life. It will be false to have him return only if I put a gun to his head.
IMO, if he comes back to you but it takes you moving on to wake him up to how important you are to him - that
IS voluntary. You are not holding a gun to his head. You aren't threatening to do something to him. You are doing something
for you.
Having conditions and requirements about how you will be treated is not forcing him to do anything. He is free to meet your requirements or not. Setting a boundary and taking care of ourselves is not holding a gun to someone's head.
It is a risk, but your friend's opinion, along with the postponements suggest that your H may well fall your way if required, not forced, but
required, to choose.
Your decision will be liberating when you truly make it, when you gain control you lose the fear.
Burt
At the risk of being told I am being defensive I am just including a part of my post after Gucci's initial post. I feel the need to do this after just reading the last instalments especially when Gucci says, "They can hate the OW and yet can't see that their WS are no better than the OW. They need to start placing the blame where it should go...."
I appreciate Gucci's words because they have given me plenty to think about..... I did say I was jealous of H spending time with ow. I didn't say anything else about her. I agree with Gucci, H is as bad as ow. I am wasting my life here. Bottom line is that H wasn't true in good times and in bad...
I hear the following advice and I know you will correct me if I am wrong!!
Remain civil and friendly with H but don't be a friend. Certainly don't initiate.
Detach from the whole situation
Get out and enjoy a life that is separate from H, including dating
Have confidence in self
Have a got a clear picture?
Cas
So tonight when H sent a text to tell me he passed a very important exam should I congratulate and that's it?
Hi Cas
I'd just go with,
Hi H, Congratulations on passing your exam, Cas.
He is nothing but an aquaintance in principle, if he was a real good friend of course you would ask about when the celebrations but he's not!
You have got him to civil, and that is a big achievement make no mistake, but now its time to move on a bit for you! ((cas))
(((((Cas)))))
These are my exact problems.....
I would tell you......
YES, congratulate him!! I would not stop with just that. I would expel more....like....."you worked so hard, I am happy for you" or "I am glad you told me, I know you were nervous about passing, I knew you would pass the exam the whole time".
I would do this......YES, I would.
I am not sure by treating our H's with short attitude and using only brief comments is the answer.
For me, (guys....hit me hard if you want) IF I treat H better (which I have been doing) I am more likely to change his emotions and thoughts about the relationship. It doesn't mean that we have to stop DB, GAL, DETACH. When they reach out to us they do it because they WANT to. So why not stroke their ego when given the opportunity. Afterall it's how the OW got him away from us in the first place.
Guys, I would be very interested to hear just exactly how you would want to be treated by us if you were our H's. Keep in mind....."as if" you are in our sitches at this point in time.....you no longer hate our guts, enjoy our company, enjoy intellectual or light-hearted conversations with us (the communication level is frequent now), are turned on just be looking at us, AND.... YOU SEEK US OUT.....for whatevah!!!! (My H invited me for lunch yesterday and I went.....)
These are very confusing situations.
Obviously men and women have different ideas in handling relationships.
Cas, I love the turn your thread has taken. I am wondering if success can be achieved by mixing up the two methods.
Guys, chime in now........
(((((Cas)))))
Sanderika
I think a simple well done should suffice anything more would be pursuing. If he wants to include you in any celebrations he’ll ask and it’s up to you to decide whether or not to attend.
I can see Sanderika’s point, but this isn’t about getting our friends back is it? I’m sure you’ve got loads of friends it’s probably a H you’re short on.
Your summary seems about right. Walk the higher path.
In our sitch it’s when they appear to be closer that we need to be particularly careful about rushing in with the pressure, leave it alone and just see how it plays out. Bit like a scab, the more you pick at it the worse it gets!
I'm thinking you're right Bonny. He sent me the message about the exam result but there'll be no celebrations to worry about; that's not his style at all.
I was just going to say a simple congratulations would probably suffice.
P.S - I'm terrible with scabs, a real picker!
No celebrations? I thought the whole point of taking exams was so that you could let rip after.
I'm hearing you Bonny. That's certainly my attitude, just not H's!
Burt, you mean the decision to let go? the decision to date others? both? After all these posts, I have to be honest and say I don't really know what I should be doing!
Guys, I would be very interested to hear just exactly how you would want to be treated by us if you were our H's. Keep in mind....."as if" you are in our sitches at this point in time.....you no longer hate our guts, enjoy our company, enjoy intellectual or light-hearted conversations with us (the communication level is frequent now), are turned on just be looking at us, AND.... YOU SEEK US OUT.....for whatevah!!!! (My H invited me for lunch yesterday and I went.....)
There is nothing better than having two or more women that love you and will do anything for you and never stand up to you. It strokes the ego. Cake eating is as good as it gets. When I am having a fight with one, I can go to the other to get my ego stroked. Security. Always having someone to fall back on. Nothing better than a little spice in your life by sleeping with more than one woman. Variety is the spice of life. I must be all of that since I have women chasing me and loving me for doing nothing. I guess I am a pretty good catch.
I sure hope the OW doesn't find out that I am still seeing and sleeping with my STBEX. Oh well, she would never believe it anyway, so no biggie.
Yep. Life is good. I sure hope that I don't lose all my money and my business if or when we divorce. She loves me too much though to do that, but I will be nice to her just in case. IF she does try to take me to the cleaners though... WATCH OUT. I know she is scared that I may hate her. I will just have a brat attack and I know she will back right off though because she loves me so much. I sure don't have to worry about her.
Now that I have these two women, I wonder if that blonde waitress that always smiles to me at the restaurant likes me too. She sure is hot. I think I will keep flirting with her. She sure has a nice body. I think I will stop by there again today. Life is good. I think she gives me extra big portions for some reason. HHHMMM....
Gucci, your scenario is a good response for Sanderika's question. However, for me I get what you are saying and I don't think it needs further elaboration. (H's cake eating is having his ego stroked by my affirmation and knowing I still love him. There has been no physical intimacy since separation.)
My question remains "How do I progress from here?" Do I tell H that the 'game plan' has changed or do I just change the plan and let him discover it. I will see him this week at my D's school awards night. What difference in me should he see/sense?
Just change the plan, has he discussed his plans with you? Probably not.
He should see a woman at peace with the decision to separate who's looking forward with her life, confident and sassy (I hate that word but it's appropriate). One who's not hanging on to his word looking for a sign that he's still in love with her and wants to come back. Really it's the best and probably only option left. The softly softly approach is not working.
Remember your M may be over (but perhaps not) but your life sure ain't.
Thanks Bonny. That's about what I thought but I probably don't have confidence that I am progressing appropriately.
Friendly but not friends Cas I think. Be the gorgeous woman you are with a quiet confidence that you are ok, in fact life is grand.
Afternoon Cas thanks for your advice on my thread much appreciated x
Ok so your lacking confidence in how to move on so go with baby steps, classify H as an aquaintance now so only deal with him that way! Let him organise his own dates with the kids, just stay polite, friendly and done with him.
Can you go out on your own or do you need to mind the kids? Sorry not sure of their ages although presume teens. Now your feeling better start growing your hobby base, what do you like to do? What things can you do which would start meeting new people, I dont mean dating but you need to get used to being out and about meeting new folks and starting to make new friends of either sex, we all stop making deeper friendships with our male folks when we get married as it doesnt seem right so start practising making male friends and dont worry about where its going to start with!
Julia, thanks. You are a boost to the ego!
Rabbit, I probably need to clarify the bit about confidence....I am quite confident in my day to day life. I just lack confidence right now in how I go about things from this point given the extraordinary amount of input I have had on my thread lately.
I don't make any plans with H re the kids. They are 15 and 17 so old enough to organise what they want to do with him, and in no need of babysitting. For example, D organised the tickets and invited us both to her awards night. D is staying over at H's tomorrow night which is something H and D arranged.
As for going out, I am fairly social. In fact, it's probably been a bone of contention over the years between H and I because I am much more social than H.
Perhaps you could make some suggestions to extend me further? At the moment I walk everyday with a group and we coffee/breakfast every Friday. I go to the movies every couple of weeks and regularly see live theatre. I go to a women's gym (but not since my surgery...still not allowed). My work place is pretty social and I join in with most activities. I spend time with my parents who live a short distance. I probably need to extend my friendship group a little as it's mostly females and married couples. I could invite more people over to dinner/bbq. Time is a bit of an issue as I have a career and part time study as well. And of course there's the work/life balance needed to keep the health in check and the usual running around after D and the household stuff!
So thinking out loud..... I will start to invite friends here and look at ways to extend my friendship group. Any other suggestions Rabbit?
PS As I re-read what I had written I thought the logical thing is to change gyms but I go to one of those 30 min circuit gyms which I quite enjoy.
No I got the confidence bit, you come across very calm, serine and confident in all of your posts, think you have hit the nail on the head about extending your types of friendship groups to include more men, on the gym front perhaps you could change to a more traditional type gym with some floorwork classes, and a swimming pool, Im sure that swimming exercise in gentle doses may be allowed. Perhaps you could let any really good friends know that if they have any single male friends you'd be interested in making new friends, but make sure you clearly state that you mean friends not dates to start with!
on the gym front perhaps you could change to a more traditional type gym with some floorwork classes, and a swimming pool, Im sure that swimming exercise in gentle doses may be allowed.
More surgery Thursday, all being well (I have a cough at present so may be sent home again) so the gym and swimming will be out for a while more so I can consider that in the new year.
Perhaps you could let any really good friends know that if they have any single male friends you'd be interested in making new friends, but make sure you clearly state that you mean friends not dates to start with!
Yep, good idea!!
Do I tell H that the 'game plan' has changed or do I just change the plan and let him discover it. I will see him this week at my D's school awards night. What difference in me should he see/sense?
You don't tell him a thing. That is the mistake that so many make. You just change the plan. Regarding the awards night there shouldn't be a big noticeable change in you. You don't seek him out. If he seeks you out then be cordial. You do however need to have a sense or an air of mystery. An air of your mind being in another place. End the conversation quickly and end it first.
What kinds of thngs would make me wonder about a woman?
I think that if she was texting on her phone half the night or talking softly
on it would make an impression even though I would not say or ask about it. It would make me wonder though, especially if I noticed a change in her demeanor. Rushing out the door right after the ceremony would also make me wonder if combined with the new demeanor.
And then you should let that sink in and leave him alone. Start to become less available and hard to pin down. Seem to be busy and always seem to be acting as if you are trying to get off the phone or get rid of him even though you are not mean or nasty. Just busy and in another world of your own. You need to get him CURIOUS to what is going on with you. That is the first "baby step."
Gucci, thank you. Now I have my instructions I'm ready to go!
Life is good. I think she gives me extra big portions for some reason. HHHMMM....
OMG. Funny.
Too add to this girls. The hair dresser for sure, she's real cute. and there are always one or two women at work who are divorced, get off cheating on their husbands, or have recently been cheated on and are out for a little revenge. oh and the girl at the gym and the bartender girl at the country club, the clerk at the car rental booth, cashier at the convenience store. They're all interested in a little
challenge of stealing a guy's interest. And there's nothing wrong with with us guys having a bunch of female friends, right?
Gucci, thank you for answering my "as if" scenario. I get it, get it, get it.....You nailed it from what I see in behaviors.
I have the choice to go forward with the D in December. I counterclaimed H's petition against me last fall. I can waive, postpone, move forward or dismiss my case. I bet your vote for me is to move forward at this time.
Cas, this is such a helpful thread!!! I am a slow learner in this subject and I know it is lack of confidence and fear and a lack of self esteem when around H. In the other aspects of my life I am like you....very capable, strong, content and getting along very nicely as a single mom with all the responsibilites I have to deal with such as my two jobs and my home.
I have let H get away with this cr*p long enough. What is meant to be.....will be. It certainly feels that my H is right where Gucci has him pegged to be. I do not see H moving in any direction without a huge wake-up call. I am trying to come to grips with moving forward in the D. If I tell my L to move forward, I want to stay the path. This is going to be very hard for me. I don't consider this a game, I want something to change. If it's over it's over. I have tried in doing my absolute best to turn this around. I guess it's a positive that he doesn't hate me. I will leave it at that.
Today H showed up at the house to haul an antique truck to a show. Invited son (not me) and son declined the invite. H showed up without notice or previous plan with son. I think there is a lesson in that for me. I didn't push son to go. I let it be his choice. I don't care what H thought. It honestly didn't seem to affect him at all.
Thank you all.....
Sanderika
Sanderika, although getting a divorce goes against everything that you believe in, you really must go ahead this time. It's been postponed twice for the purpose of reconciliation. I remember reading about this in your posts.
If H's intention was to reconcile there would be definite action in this regard. Sadly this is not the case.
However, as a positive, his lack of action allows you to regain control of your life by moving forward with divorce proceedings. It sends H a real clear message that you have given him every opportunity to reconcile with you but now you are moving on. I suspect that in doing this, the way forward will be so much clearer for you.
I have reflected on my kids and how they treat H. Like your son, they say no to H if they feel like it and they are strong enough to tell H when he's being unreasonable. This was especially apparent in the early days. That made H annoyed in the beginning but after a while H was texting and calling and sending invitations to them. H didn't want to lose them.
It's a difficult time for you Sanderika and you know we are all here for you. You can do this!
In Australia, divorce is no fault. It will be a case of completing and lodging the paperwork once our business is sorted and our financial matters are settled. For me, the financial settlement will be my hurdle and certainly my way forward. I know that I have avoided this aspect as I was avoiding conflict with H and of course, avoiding his temper tantrums. However, I also know that conflict is inevitable as I will only accept what is fair, especially given that I have had the kids with me with very minimal assistance from H.
Use this thread as a chance to journal and to seek support from your friends as you move forward.
Cas
D went over to stay at H's house tonight. She came back with H a few hours later to collect something she had forgotten. H came into the house as well. I was busy cooking so I responded to his greeting and went on with my dicing.
H made light conversation,including asking if my neck was still sore as he thought it appeared so. Then he asked what I was cooking. There was general conversation between H, S and D but I kept my focus on the meal preparations.
I was a bit caught off guard with his visit and had just come back from my walk so certainly didn't look like someone who was about to head off for a big social night!
Pain being caught off guard but just think of him as being one of the kids friends, you would have carried on much the same as you did with one of them! Although I do think that there must be a time when you say to the kids, "yeah he is your dad but hes not my H anymore so could you let me know youre popping back as I dont want to be in any situations that I wouldnt be with any other man in my house" Let face it you wouldnt want to be caught in a passionate moment with another man now would you lol!
Hi Cas,
This thread of yours has been a very big help given the duration of the sitches. I am happy that the posters were gentle on us for the most part. It has really helped to have a glimpse inside the minds of our H's. I do have to assume it as true.
I feel I have DB for ME.....SUCCESSFULLY!!!!!
I feel I have DB for US in the fact that my H and I are friends again.....SUCCESSFULLY!!!!!
I have been reading other posters advice on other threads this morning. What I have learned is pretty much what I already knew how to do. I was implementing the DB method long before I knew what it was or even found this site. I have to give myself credit for some smarts here about relationships, especially my own. I feel the advice I have given others is right on the mark to change a sitch from pure hatred to friendship.
I have read a lot of conflicting advice here....
I am feeling low about "not getting" Gucci's POV sooner. I guess it's cause I refused to take the blinder's off my eyes. I am typical though as I have read. It's we LBS that seem to get it last.
My H has been spending a considerable amount of time calling me, visiting over here, invited me out for lunch, plus a few other things....I am considering all of this a lead-in for an attempt towards yet another postponement in a few short weeks. My H will not get another chance.
I have been pondering something to tell H. My current version is something like this:
"D, I cannot postpone a 5th time because there have been no real significant changes this past year. Moving forward has nothing to do with my feelings for you. Right now it has everything to do with removing myself from a situation that is unhealthy for me to remain a part of. At this place in time, I am moving forward. I am grateful we have been able to re-create a friendship, especially for J's sake, and I hope it can continue."
I am toying with also saying "it doesn't mean I am closing the door for good, just on the relationship we have now" or something like this.
Cas, what are you actually thinking of doing right now???? I may have missed your thoughts on how to proceed in your sitch....if that's the case, I am sorry to be asking.
Thinking of you......
Sanderika
Hi Cas
Just checking you OK?
What's the plan for wednesday night?
I've been trying the Gucci approach too, limited success I must say. H has noticed, he's not happy (kids told me) that I've been out with a male friend, but he's not said/done anything about it. I think for me it's too late, he's not moving his position at all.
Hi Cas
Just checking you OK?
What's the plan for wednesday night?
I've been trying the Gucci approach too, limited success I must say. H has noticed, he's not happy (kids told me) that I've been out with a male friend, but he's not said/done anything about it. I think for me it's too late, he's not moving his position at all.
Hold tight.
Burt
I've been trying the Gucci approach too, limited success I must say. H has noticed, he's not happy (kids told me) that I've been out with a male friend, but he's not said/done anything about it.
Can't speak for Gucci, and won't, but I can tell you a few things I see wrong with YOUR approach.
1st - "H has noticed, he's not happy (kids told me) that I've been out with a male friend, but he's not said/done anything about it."
WHO CARES? You need to lose the concern. It is not until a wife checks out and fades away that a husband opens his eyes and takes notice. You are not there yet. You are pretending/bluffing and its obvious and it wont have the affect you so desire. Stop worrying about the affect and study the methods. Read it over and over again on this site. It goes ...
I had an affair; now my wife is having one and I want her back soo badly.
I have been emotionally distant and uncaring towards my wife; now shes out to 3 in the morning.
I was verbally abusive to my wife now she's moved out and won't answer my calls.
Or in the least, my wife says shes wants a divorce what can I do to stop this, I was one of the above.
Stop thinking about how he's going to react. Who cares. You are still clinging onto friendship. He's a 'friend' right? Why should a friend care who you are sleeping with? Oh, he does, hmmm.... Well think of it this way then 'aren't I the cutest the girl you ever lost. What you going to do to win me back, the dishes, the laundry, massage my stinky feet? too little too late. try harder. Loser.'
You are still doing the pursuing. The only one your husband wants pursuing him is the drunk blonde at the bar at 3am that doesnt even know her own name (thats rude but probably true). Pursuit doesnt work and its best you turns this around with a lot of mystery and a noticeable change in concern.
#2 - "I did go out for dinner/concerts with male friends at the beginning of our separation; my H didn’t like it at all so I stopped as I didn’t want to push him further away. That may in hindsight have been a mistake, perhaps I should have been bolder and said that it was none of his business that we’d moved on etc."
Ahh... Yeah. What are you a possession? He's got a piece on the side, wants you at home alone and you are afraid to push him further away? Something is wrong with that picture.
And why is he finding out. You broke the number one rule, secrecy. These little flings of yours need to thrive in secrecy, linger on and on, stand in the way of any sort of reconcillation. Mind you, I'm not suggesting you belly up and arch your back, but he has got to feel he lost his best girl. Sorta like the crisis that brought you here. I think its called a broken heart.
So lets recap what we have learned on this site:
She emotionally cold and distant to me. She never calls me nor does she answer my calls any more.
She clings to the edge of the bed.
She sits there like her mind is elsewhere.
She's always going out shopping or to her mothers as soon as I get home from work. She doesnt come home until late.
When she comes home she is always smiling and taking to me. Is this a sign that things are getting better.
She's all buddy buddy with this guy from work. They do lunch and talk on the phone about his marriage problems.
She says there is nothing go on they are just friends. Should I set a boundary that she doesnt text him in front of me.
She keeps telling me she just needs space and that I am controlling.
Her toxic BFF is the problem, they go out until all hours of the morning.
What can I do to save my marriage?
Morning Cas
Hi Steve
Thanks for the comments. Most constructive.
I’ll reply here although this is someone else’s thread and apologize to Cas for the hijack.
1. I agree that I need to lose the concern. Having said that my H doesn’t know of any concern that I have, I share it here on this board and nowhere else. We do not have day to day contact, in the past three weeks the only contact we have had is one email exchange re finances. I never contact him and if he contacts I only reply if necessary.
2. I have said that this was a mistake. It was before I found out about the DB approach right at the beginning of our separation when I was quite frankly lost and desperate.
I do not consider him to be a friend, I’ve got friends it’s a H I want. If he were a friend would I not phone/email/text for a chat, I’ve not done this once since we separated (2 years ago).
The secrecy issue is a difficult one, we have 4 adult kids who live with me and who see their dad. I expect them to let me know when they will be home at night out of politeness so it is right that I keep them informed too. I don’t exactly know how much they share with my H, but have heard in the past that he’s been angry that I’ve been out with male friends. Secondly I had an EA 2 years before my H checked out so honesty and trust is an issue. How do I balance an honest and open approach (which is recommended after affairs) with secrecy (recommended by yourself and others)?
If I had really had let go of the M why would I need to keep any of my life secret on purpose. Surely if I was truly done would I care whether my H knew what I was up to or not?
(((((Cas)))))
Thinking about you today.....
Hope your surgery goes well with wishes for another speedy recovery.....
Sanderika
Wishing you all the best for today Cas, hope it goes well (())
Good luck Cas hope you're back here soon
Hi Cas
My best wishes, hugs and love to you today. Take care and we will see you when you are able.
(((((((((Cas))))))))
Sending you good wishes (((Cas)))
Julia, Oz, Rabbit, Sanderika and Bonny hello and thanks for your good wishes. Surgery went very well and I am home now.I'm back to the surgeon on Wednesday and from there we will plan the final surgery.
Had D's award's night Wednesday. I was seated when H arrived and I was talking to a friend so just said hi when he arrived. Then it started pretty quickly after so not much conversation at all. It was a long, long night so we were quick to leave and walked straight to the car. He was parked directly behind us. He wished me well for surgery. I said thatnks and that was it.
H text me after sugery to ask how I was feeling and to tell me he would take and pick D up from her sport over the weekend.
Cas
PS Never worry about hijacking. I am always happy to learn from everyone's situations
(((((Cas)))))
Thank you for your update.
Happy to hear you are doing very well. Your recovery seems to be going shorter than the last one. You sound in good spirit.
Your H is being kind and considerate. Regardless of the sitch, to me it feels good to have them be this way again. It goes back to the old saying: actions speak louder than words. Your H actions are not so unlike my H's. They are behaving more considerate and I think it is genuine, don't you?
It's all so interesting.
My H called me to chat on Thursday nite. I told him I had a really bad headache all day and was already resting in bed (it was 20 after 9). We chatted for an hour, it was a good chat with lots of laughing. He said I hope you feel better before he hung up. I am not sure for the reason of the call. At first I thought it was all in friendship and checking in. At some point halfway through he casually mentioned he would be out of town for two weeks in early December for a new project for our company. I have a feeling it was a lead in for another postponement, I did not take the bait, I let it go right over my head and carried on in the conversation which was about upcoming work scheduled. I am not bringing up the Dec. 4th court appointment to him again. I know he is aware of it, I brought it up 2 weeks ago in a convo.
OH well, TWT....Time Will Tell!!!!
Take care Cas, hope your weekend is going well so far....
Sanderika
Hi Sanderika,
Good to hear from you. Yep, this surgery was only 1 1/2 hours compared to 5 for the last one so much easier to take!It all went smoothly. I am home from work until Thursday.
Glad you didn't mention the hearing to H. Sounds like he was testing you a bit with his comment about being out of town.
I think H is genuine in his actions but it doesn't matter too much anymore. I am tired of it all. I am sick of thinking about it and just want to wrap everything up so I can move on with my life. I'll probably always love him and I know he's stuffed up but life goes on. I have plans to travel and study next year and this has to be my priority along with my kids, of course.
I tried to follow Gucci's advice for the award's night and I was somewhat successful but a darkened auditorium isn't the ideal place to be texting and the whole night went so late that we were all rushing to get away!
Talk later,
Cas
Glad to hear the surgery went well! I am so with you on the done front, I am certainly getting to feel that I need to call time on my H, he seems to be going forward but its so slow I wonder if he ever will commit again!
Secondly I had an EA 2 years before my H checked out so honesty and trust is an issue. How do I balance an honest and open approach (which is recommended after affairs) with secrecy (recommended by yourself and others)?
How would YOU define an emotional affair? and was this the cause of your husband's "checking out"? answer in your thread if you wish. Steve.
my thread is in divorced but not done. Thanks in advance for your reply Steve.
Hi Cas
Glad your on the mend (again).
I feel the same I'm so tired of all this. Bit down today, told a close friend the whole story. My H got to hear and is angry even though one of this complaints about me was that I wasn't open enough, nothing I do it right.
Maybe your H is like mine, generally decent men who have made decisions that we don't agree with, it doesn't mean that it's wrong for them. Maybe they're right we should be separated, onwards and upwards etc.
Hi Bonny,
Sorry to hear that you're a bit down. Think it's par for course on this rollercoaster. I guess when we finally give up, our H's get what they wish for and that's when they finally see if life as a divorced man is as good as they think it will be. My H hasn't really experienced that properly yet cos he's always popping in or texting or calling. I'm getting ready to pull the pin on it all.
I have a life planned for me that doesn't include him.
Cas
Me too I'm moving forward.
Lately I feel that my H is feeling the effect of his actions he seems to be unravelling a bit, very defensive and bitter towards me. Not sure what to do about that. Probably should do nothing it's his choice, made for himself, with little regard to the effect on me, our kids or wider family.
Remember M maybe over, life's not!
My first step is to have final surgery as soon as the surgeon will allow and then I'm going to organise some long service leave to go overseas. Haven't decided where or for how long but it will be later on next year. Can only be a few weeks because of my kids but I have to do this for me. In the meantime I'm going to do a few things around the house to smarten it up and tackle my study-I have 4 more subjects to complete my masters.
Well I want to go skiing, but am finding it difficult as don't want to go on my own and all the 'singles' type holidays seem to be aimed at 35-45 year olds and I'm 49!
Thinking about finishing my accountancy exams.
So it's not too bad but need someone to share it with. It's saturday night for god sake and I'm sitting here watching England play Brazil at football and worse of all England lost.
Where about overseas are you planning on going?
Bonny, I'm really open to anything but I guess at the moment I'm thinking USA, Thailand and Philippines because that's where I have people to visit. This way, I don't have to worry about travelling on my own. It's just flying on my own and then being collected at the airport, catching up with friends and flying out again. That's actually probably two trips given the time frame I have. I need to check it out properly.
It was a quiet weekend, just hanging out at home aside from some time yesterday at a shopping centre with a friend. We had lunch together and then browsed at a few shops.
I heard from H via email and he asked how I was feeling and he rang the house looking for D and asked how I was feeling, too when I answered. D said he had twice checked with her about how I was as well.
Later last night he emailed to say he is doing all the driving for D this week since I cannot drive (he didn't bother to even offer after the last surgery and didn't contact me at all to see how I was feeling!)Interesting .....
Glad to hear you had a pleasant weekend Cas! Does sound at least as if H is trying to make sure youre ok even if from a distance.
Bonny I dont know where you are in the uk, but Im in Oxfordshire if you fancy a night out some time!
I think I'm in a new phase...getting on with life. I've finally decided that it's H's loss! well, that's my feeling for today anyway!!
Morning all
Quiet is good sometimes.
Do you think he’s asking just to be polite or is he really concerned about the answer?
Best to try not to read to much into what he does/doesn’t you, remember focus on yourself.
Nah Rabbit, live in London. Still if I ever happen to be going that way it would be fun to meet up. Know nothing about horses though. My brother’s the country one, he’s got a stud farm and recently did very well in the Horse of the Year show in Birmingham
I think I'm in a new phase...getting on with life.
Good for you!
I've finally decided that it's H's loss! well, that's my feeling for today anyway!!
Good. Funny. Go read my 11/10/09 joke on the
Just For Fun Forum. /"Joke of the day" thread. Similar.
Hi Cas
I am so glad all went well and you are on the mend. Your H will all too soon realise what he has lost.
I am glad that you have made plans for next year for things you want to do, that is good for the soul and mind. Take extra care of yourself as you recuperate.
Work here is absolutely crazy at present so I have been a bit absent for which I apologise to all.
Well Bonny, I have no idea if he's asking to be polite or otherwise. I just recognise that it's different to my last operation 3 1/2 months ago which was a much bigger deal and he didn't bother to ask and didn't do anything to help with D. Anyway, it's an observation and that is all.
Oz, so good to hear from you! I'm lurking a bit because I'm working from home/on sick leave. I am just about ready to start cementing my plans for the future. Might manage a few days in Melbourne over Jan. Perhaps we could meet for lunch on a Friday? I have to get clearance from the surgeon when I see him tomorrow.
Gardener....yep, we were certainly intune with my thought for the day and your joke. Thanks for sharing and thanks for popping in. I often read your comments around the place and I must say I really admire your sensitivity and your balanced perspective. Thanks!
Hi Cas
Would absolutely love to catch up with you when you come to Melbourne. A Friday is good as that is my day off.
D and S went to have dinner with H tonight. She asked me to come and get her early so she could study which I did. Got a text from H apologising and saying he would have taken her home and he didn't realise she had contacted me.
Hope the recovery is still going well.
You sound great btw, positive and light hearted. Good girl.
Why would he need to apologise she contacted you didn't she? Unless of course she asked him first and he said no. Best not to get involved in the R between the kids and their dad.
Hi Bonny, Going well. Seeing the surgeon tomorrow to haave the bandaging removed. That'll be good because it's pretty hot at the moment. Can't wait to get rid of the stockings either!
You're right, Bonny. I am feeling pretty good. It's taken me a long time to reach this point but although I feel sad it's come to this I now see a whole new life looming and I plan to make the most of it.
Usually it would be H who organises lifts to and from his place. I simply responded to D's request. Not sure why he felt the need to apologise and I am certainly not getting involved. Just interesting that he would even bother to apologise. Before now he wouldn't have given a hoot. I just find these interactions interesting. I can see that he is trying to be reasonable.
Hi Cas, good to see your spirits are up. Thanks for dropping by my thread earlier. I did not know of your past illness before, you are an incredibly strong woman!
Cheers
Thanks Deep. Circumstances certainly make or break us!! Interestingly, I think I was a strong woman all along but I allowed myself to become dependant and needy of my H. My illness and subsequent separation have quite possibly restored that strength that I've had laying dormant for a long time now. That's why I am itching to get out and do new stuff now. Patience is now needed in a whole new way!
Cas
Hey Oz,
Friday lunch it is! Hopefully, I'll be able to sort this out soon!
Cas
The bandages are off, just some tape now. Phew, that's a bit cooler and a bit easier to move! Going back in 3 weeks for a check up and to plan for the gran finale in 12 weeks time.
Surgeon says I'm fine to fly (with my stockings on) so I'm all set to start planning some trips. Yay!!
Great news Cas!
There's nothing for me to report but something is different.........
H and I have spoken, texted and emailed a few times as we have a few business things happening at present and a few things with the kids.
Last week H not only asked how I was feeling after the op by email and text and when he phoned the house looking for D but he also did 16 trips for D and I did none. After the last op he didn't offer any! This week he's organised him to do just over half. For 2 years I've done pretty much everything, and he's been the Tuesday night dinner Dad.
D says he keeps inviting her to stay over at his place and complaining she doesn't stay often enough.
His dealings with me have been most courteous, but that is all. You could say it's been cordial.
Tonight he came here to drop off some business things but I was on the phone with my B. I knew about them and they required no explanantion so I carried on the convo but he was still here after some time (talking with the kids) so I interrupted my convo and asked if he wanted to speak to me about something and he said no and then left shortly after.
So, there's something different happening........... perhaps just trying to re-establish with the kids and dealing positively with me as he knows we'll have to see each other for many years ahead???
Today I saw H and OW at our business and they arrived together. H came and said hi and D tells me OW rolled her eyes at me when she saw I was there. For the first time, I really felt like saying something to her. After all, what have I ever done to her? Grrrr
Hi Cas,
I see that "something" is different, too.
Actually "something" and "nothing" at the same time.
Something: Your H is hanging about, being attentive, considerate and caring with both you, D and S. No recent R or D talk. Everytime he helps D or S it is a nice gesture towards you. Everytime he hangs about your house to see D or S he is also hanging to see you!!!!
Nothing: Your H is still with OW, status quo on that front. No R or D talk for several weeks. H appears to still be in limboland about Cas, marriage, the kids, his wants, OW, living life semi alone.
My H does what yours does, when he comes over he lingers about.
It's like he doesn't want to leave. He even hangs when the convo is exhausted for the most part. I have often wondered the very same, why? Is he hanging to be invited to do something? Is he hanging to think up more to talk about so he can stay longer? Is he hanging to check out the surroundings to see what's new and changed? Does he want to have a R talk, then chickens out? I so wish the questions had answers, arghhh!!!
Last week my H called me Sunday, Monday, Wednesday, Thursday.
Over 4 hours of chatting about everything under the sun except us and the marriage. Every convo was positive and friendly and from what I can see he let his guard down and gave me a glimpse into his daily goings ons which is nothing really new except he seems to share things I wouldn't if I had filed for a D from my wife, i.e. money, schedules, contacts, etc.... On Thursday, he called here and I was out with a friend for the evening. He spoke to S who told him: "I don't know where she is but she is out with a friend" Well and hour plus later H was calling me on my cell (I didn't answer) and the message was: "Hi, just wondering what you are up to, when you get this message...call me". I returned the call but not til very late, I sounded all upbeat and perky and started like: "Hey, how are you, you asked me to call, what's up?" Again, I wish I had answers. My guess on my side here....H is setting me up only to postpone for #5 in court. I am becoming a huge skeptic. Can't help it. I think my "trust factor" has taken a huge plunge south!!!!!!!! With very good reason.
(((((Cas))))) keep doing what you are doing. You have definitely gotten your H's attention again. I say keep it up, let's see what his next move is.....The wheels are definitely turning in his head!!!!
Take care, have a great week ahead.....
Sanderika
Hi Cas
Good to hear you are feeling more comfortable, the H factor is very interesting too! Something must be in the water as my H seems to be moving forward a bit too! Although I do wonder if the onset of the Xmas spirit has something to do with this! I suppose we will all have to wait and see!
Bet you are really looking forward to planning some trips, a holiday is definitely on my to do list for next year!
Today H calls me to ask if he can borrow my camera and to copy the videos of the kids when they are young. I ask him to do a copy for me. He says ok.
H tells S he might move interstate for work or he might travel around with a caravan for a while and see the country. Still restless. Wondering if he's trying to create space.
Hi Sanderika.....I think you're probably too generous in your assumption of H. I think he cares for me in a distant kind of way and that is all.
Hi rabbit. Hope things are continuing to progress so positively for you
Certainly seems that he's trying to reconnect with the kids at least. Which is good for all.
Don't think I'd look into it anymore closely than that. if he does at some point want more than that how would you feel?
Today was our W anniversary. H and I had a convo about business and H said, "Next step is financial settlement" and I added, "and the divorce". He said, "Yes, that too." H started to say I'd stalled finances in the past. I said that was starting a convo about the past and that I would have no convo about the past unless it would help improve the future. He said, "Ok."
Certainly seems that he's trying to reconnect with the kids at least. Which is good for all.
Don't think I'd look into it anymore closely than that. if he does at some point want more than that how would you feel?
Bonny, Yes, definitely reconnecting with the kids. This makes me wonder about his thoughts of moving elsewhere or travelling around the country. Not sure he could go now having spent so much time reconnecting.
Probably invalid question Bonny because he won't want more. He's too proud and he won't go there. It's finished and once the divorce is done, it'll be set in stone for him. Not sure I will ever move on completely but then again didn't think I'd suggest a divorce either. Tired, tired, tired of the limbo.
Inlaw DilemmaFIL rings tonight to ask me to go to MIL's 70th birthday. It's a family only thing and he says as far as they're concerned I will always be family. I love my in-laws but I don't want to make people uncomfortable. I told FIL that and he understood. My kids want me to go. I think I know the answer but just want other people's thoughts. Do I speak to H about it or just ignore the kid's pleas and stay away. In laws live interstate. H asked me this morning if he could take the kids so obviously FIL hadn't told H he would invite me.
Just a little thought about H and the growing relationship with the kids. It started with H having little to do with them. Kids got their backs up and refused to have much to do with him (who'd blame them). Time passed and H started initiating outings and texting them. Kids went to outings that interested them. Kids refused lots of invitations. H kept up slowly but surely making inroads. Nowdays, it's a new relationship with his kids. The pain and hurt is still there but there's growth and definitely love. Lessons for LBS??
Hi Cas,
I am so sorry for so many of us here.....(((((Hugs))))).
Our STBXH's will one day realize the destruction that our D's have caused to the entire family. I do believe this and at some point they all will have time to reflect and feel the pain of their actions. I agree, most will be too proud to reverse their choice.
For us it's important right now to take the high road...be graceful and strong and rise above this madness and pain so that one day we can be whole again and live life happy. Let's consider our D's as new-found freedom. Freedom from the baggage our H's have brought upon us in recent years. Freedom from living under the control of our H's limbo. We are certainly very tired right now, but that too shall pass along with the pain.
YES, we will love our H's forever, but it will be a healthier love. It will be a love for who they were as they meant the world to us. The time for them to be with us has passed, the purpose of them in our lives has been fulfilled. It will be a love for our children they gave us and the joy they bring us everyday. We will be grateful for the time we had with our H's for many reasons. Time will heal us.
Cas, my opinion about your MIL's 70th birthday party is this:
I would not go to her 70th birthday. I understand the kids wanting you there, it is inappropriate to go given the certainty of a D from their son. Also you have been separated for a very long time, regardless of emotions....it will be awkward and uncomfortable for many. AND, you and H do not appear to be in a place where anything goes right now. Where seeing each other does not make either of you uncomfortable in some way.
I would make sure to contact her and wish her well and tell her you love her. I would send a gift along, but not with the kids. You said she lives interstate and from what I read it would not be convenient to deliver it in person. I would mail her gift in advance of her special day. She will understand and be appreciative you thought of her in a loving way.
I would have a chat with your S and D and explain that due to the impending D it would be best if you did not go and that they still need to be there for their grammie and father and family.
This is one of the hardest things to have to accept. I find it very difficult here being invited or left out. In the 4+ years of my separation, I have attended 2 in-law events, one Christmas and one 4th of July...both were within the first year of separation. I have declined as many invites as I have not received invites. I do not think of them as my family anymore.
We have Thanksgiving this Thursday, I am very sad, it is my 5th alone and S and I will spend the day at home in quiet. I am sure all the in-laws are gathering. It is sooooo hard.....
Take care Cas, my thoughts are with you everyday.....
Sanderika
YES, I too wonder the same about the progression between our kids and their dads. My S has lived the same as your D and S. For the most part refusing to give him the time of day and declining one invite after the other because of his own pain over his loss of family.
My H has missed out on over 4 years with S. They are virtual strangers. It hurts me as I cannot imagine turning my back on my S, even given the severity of our sitch. My son does not feel loved by H. He still feels neglect and abandon. He has however learned to accept "what is....is". He always treats H with kindness and respect regardless of his inner feelings.
My H appears to be trying to involve S in his life again, albeit in very small doses and still fairly infrequent.
Just recently I saw my S put his wall down and go off with H a couple of times, and had a great time. The other night H called to speak to me and S answered the phone. He has been very reluctant to give his dad even an inch. H was pleased that S answered. H said: "I got to talk to J tonight". His tone was of pleasure and almost like it was a treat!!!!
I need them to have a relationship, I am powerless to maintain it for them. It breaks my heart in pieces to see the R between S and H deteriorate. THIS HAS ALL BEEN AT H'S HAND AND CHOOSING!!! My son has been without dad between the ages of 9 and 13. Very tough ages, a boy needs to have a male role model. H has been a very poor example. I want to see them patch things up. I want it for them, I am out of the picture now. My R with my S is wonderful. It is my duty to maintain and nurture that for us.
There are lessons to be learned everyday by the maturity and resolve our children have shown during these times. Time heals all.....
Cas,
Inlaw Dilemma
FIL rings tonight to ask me to go to MIL's 70th birthday. It's a family only thing and he says as far as they're concerned I will always be family. I love my in-laws but I don't want to make people uncomfortable.
If it's a family only thing and you'll "always be family", who exactly would you be making uncomfortable?
I told FIL that and he understood.
Sounds like he was just being polite. Could it be possible that he was disappointed that you said no when his invite words included, "It's a family only thing and he says as far as they're concerned I will always be family."?
So do I
I think I know the answer but just want other people's thoughts.
So what's
your answer that you think you know?
H asked me this morning if he could take the kids so obviously FIL hadn't told H he would invite me.
I say call FIL back and accept. He, MIL, kids, and
you will be glad you did. Tell H, 'You don't have to take them, I'll take them."
Go. Go to loving, always-be-family MIL's 70th.
My take, kiddo.
If the PIL have asked you to go and they feel you will always be family dont let them down go! Its their son who has walked away and obviously regardless of how much they love him they still dont wish to be deprived of their DIL. You will have the moral support of all "your family" so go and enjoy yourself, after all H perhaps should have considered a lot of things before he walked away!
Hi Cas
My simple response is for you to go. You are lucky to have in-laws who still care deeply for you and I think you should embrace that care and love that they extend to you.
All I can say is go. You’ve been invited, you in-laws are happy for you to go, you want to go, the kids want you to go so go. If you were truly detached going would not be a problem would it? If it’s a problem for your H I would suggest that he’s not as over you as he would like to think. And I’m not saying that to give you hope.
I have a similar situation just after Christmas, but in my case my H is insisting that I don’t go even though the kids and the rest of the family are happy to have me there. Is he as over me as he says? I don’t think so.
Sanderika, I have to say that the progression of H's relationship with both kids is really heartening. The love between them has reignited and in this way I can see the H of years ago...the one who was besotted with our babies, the one who was excited to share and teach our kids and the Dad who was idolised by both our kids. I did tell him yesterday that i could see this progression and affirmed him on the development and he was appreciative of my insight.
The significant thing between H and I is that I continue to see him responding to my communication in a friendly manner but at the same time he is adamant that this is over. I'm not 100% convinced that H is sure about the divorce...he did take 30 mins to respond which is unusual and he has always stated that he didn't want a divorce. Anyway for now I am taking him at face value but I am observing some conflict between his words and actions. I have decided that we need a divorce because our marriage is over. It no longer exists and never will again. Any reconciliation, as slim as that chance may be will be a brand new one.
Gardener....wow thanks for the care in your words. When I read your posts I am always filled with admiration for the warmth and integrity your words convey. Thanks for sharing your perspective. It's so wonderful to hear someone elses's thoughts.
Cas,
Inlaw Dilemma
who exactly would you be making uncomfortable? [quote=Cas05]H for starters and then then SILs and BILs who won't know how to act around us. If I sense they are uncomfortable, so too, will I be![/quote]
Sounds like he was just being polite. Could it be possible that he was disappointed that you said no when his invite words included, "It's a family only thing and he says as far as they're concerned I will always be family."? FIL is a wonderful, wonderful man. If he was disappointed he would never, ever say so.
[quote=Cas05]My kids want me to go.
So do I
In my heart I want to go!!
I think I know the answer but just want other people's thoughts.
So what's
your answer that you think you know?
I thought I should stay here and face the reality that as much as I love the family they are H's family and I no longer belong at their family celebrations.H asked me this morning if he could take the kids so obviously FIL hadn't told H he would invite me.
I say call FIL back and accept. He, MIL, kids, and
you will be glad you did. Tell H, 'You don't have to take them, I'll take them."
Go. Go to loving, always-be-family MIL's 70th.
My take, kiddo.
Thanks again for your perspective, Gardener.Oz; you know the story as well as anyone and that's why I'm always interested in your opinion. Thanks. You're right about the loving and caring relatioship I have with them and how lucky I am to still be experiencing this.
Perhaps I call H and talk to him about it? At least then if H says he prefers I not go I haven't presumed anything and I can tell my FIL and the kids that H feels that way.
Cas
Hi Bonny, you have such clear insight and as someone at the same stage I value what you suggest. Hadn't thought that about H. Do I ask him for his thoughts?
Ha, yeah why would your H be so insistent that you not go? Don't think he's as independent of you as he might think.
Yes talk to your H and if he prefers you not to go, then he should talk to your FIL about it not you.
Good point, Bonny. However, whatever he tells FIL, FIL will accept because S is much stronger in personality than his Dad
Hi Cas
I really wouldn't be worrying about what H feels about it, his parents are grown ups and as it is their house, they are free to invite whoever they so choose regardless of what others may think.
So, I would not ask H his feelings on the subject, if he has issues with it then they are his issues alone for him to deal with not you.
I think what I mean is that you decide whether to go or not, but give your H a heads up on your decision. Then if he has a problem he can deal with his parents.
Tonight I got an email from H to tell me about an artist I really like who is having a concert in our state. I'm obviously still on his mind in some way.
Strange isnt it they dont want you but cant forget you! Hope you are well Cas (())
Hi Rabbit, I'm great thanks and hope you are too. I have been just lurking as I've been super busy at work and haven't had the energy to post.
Hey Cas, just saying hello!
Hi Cas
Just checking in to see how things are with you. I see you are busy with work,I know the feeling, so have been lurking more than posting.
Hope you are well Cas.
Perhaps I call H and talk to him about it? At least then if H says he prefers I not go I haven't presumed anything and I can tell my FIL and the kids that H feels that way.Cas
H didn't invite you. Why give him the power? Re-read all the responses you've gotten, make your decision, tell your FIL & then inform H. Inform H before FIL first, if you must, but if your decision is to go inform him of this unchangeable decision. Do not be swayed by H. Do it for MIL and FIL. Everyone else will survive one way or the other.
imho.
I agree with the sentiment Gardner but I'm not sure I really want to go now!
Hi Oz, Julia and Gardener...Good to hear from you all. I'm on holidays...it's a wonderful feeling! Going to the oncologist Mon and the surgeon Tues so once those visits are done I will feel fantastic.
I bought my new outdoor setting and bbq today...yay!
I haven't been in contact with H for 2 weeks but he has sent me a couple of emails...all helpful like a friend would do. This is new. Weird! His emails to date have been just straight to the point matters re business or kids.
First an enquiry about Christmas and thanks when I gave the answer
Then an email about an upcoming concert he thought I would like
Then an offer to collect an old filing cabinet I wanted to get rid of
Today one of those emails about people who try to 'carjack.' They've floated around for ages and he's never ever sent that sort of thing to me before but he sent this on to to his sister, his Mum, S and me.
Don't know what it means but it is new behaviour. Whatever it is, I am staying out of touch and concentrating on me.
Today was interesting. H and I had a meeting re our business which was quite difficult-H was pretty angry but not at me.
We spoke about it further tonight and he was a bit edgy to begin and snapped at me but I firmly told him not to speak to me like that.
As the conversation moved on he became more relaxed and answered things for me and we then chatted about the kids, his job, my health and so on. It ended up being quite a good conversation-quite comfortable and we chatted for about 45 minutes.
Today was different again. H was very stressed over business matters and we had a disagreement over finance which will impact our settlement.
He's fine now but there was a point where it reminded me of days gone by when he would lose his cool and not talk to me for weeks.
He called me back later and gave me further information on the business matter and spoke nicely to me. He conceded that he was very stressed and it wasn't my fault...he does feel I should recognise this trait in him, that it's not a positive trait, just the way he is.
Cas youre not responsible for pussy footing around him when he is stressed anymore, if he was at home with you maybe but hes not so he doesnt get anymore patience than your average friends do! Well done for telling him to not to speak to you like that!
Hope you are well! (())
Thanks Rabbit. I have always been the peace keeper so standing up to him has been challenging but these days he does acknowledge times he is wrong and does try to make peace(still usually without having to say sorry).
H tries to bully people into doing what he wants when he is under pressure and things are not going the way he wants them to. He doesn't show this trait normally but I think this tactic has worked in the past so he keeps using it. I keep trying to explain that yelling at me only gets my back up. When he's calm and teaches or explains he's got far more chance of getting me to go along with his proposals.
Anyway, the settlement and divorce is getting closer and then the real pressure will be off.
H tells me he has applied for jobs interstate and overseas as a temporary measure. He plans on coming back in the long term.
Every time we discuss our financial settlement H says I am stalling. This was true in the beginning when I was trying to get my head around things but is certainly not true now. There have been times when he has blocked progress as well. I have made several suggestions on how we can resolve things and given him my solicitor's details 2 or 3 times. I am more than happy to get this aspect over with...it's been going on too long and I am tired of sitting in limbo.
Think youre stuck in his DO I/DONT I pattern. I expect he has a good week and wants to pursue his freedom and other weeks when he is having a bad week and thinks twice, bit like a push me pull you! I know how you feel about wanting to get on with things, we are going somewhere now but in my heart I have an urgency to have a marriage or not a marriage and Im still in limbo with a just about marriage.
Rabbit, can you elaborate further for me? I think I get the essence of what you're saying but not 100%. You think I am stuck because he is still unsure of his direction? Don't forget ow is still there. I don't think there is really any indication of any commitment to me at all. If I initiate contact he is more than happy to go along but he does not contact me unless it is for business or kids aside from those random emails he sent recently.
Today S told me that H and he discussed our new mobile phone plans and S suggested H, S, D and I all remain on the one bill so we can have free calls to each other and H said, "Makes sense." Wonder again how ow would feel about that.
Increasingly I am feeling that enough is enough. I want the settlement and the divorce now because I am just so tired of living in limbo. I am tired of viewing everything he does in a positive light and excusing his temper tantrums.
He wants to have it all and I've given him everything including my friendship for very little in return...my fault, I know. You get what you tolerate.
Finally, I've decided I deserve more, to do better for me than just making do with the left over crumbs from H. I know that if anyone else treated me this way I wouldn't accept it.
I will check in here as I want to maintain contact with people but I think in the long term I need to take break to re-establish myself. I'm on facebook so hopefully I will catch most people there. Let me know if you are on FB and I'll look you up.
The good news is that we have finally sold our business! I started talking financial settlement with H yesterday and he seemed quite agreeable to my opinions (that was yesterday....tomorrow could be a whole new story!) Funny thing was he said he had to go and couldn't finish the convo cos he was very busy.
Increasingly I am feeling that enough is enough. I am tired of viewing everything he does in a positive light and excusing his temper tantrums.
He wants to have it all and I've given him everything including my friendship for very little in return...
Sounds like you're off to a great start.
Congratulations on selling the business
Not sure what I'm doing...I'm feeling all sorts of emotions at the moment...anger is surfacing mixed with regret and hurt and the whole gammut.
H sent me an email asking for a recipe but apart from that no contact from either of us.
(((Cas)))
How are you feeling about selling the business? It could be to do with breaking ties like that. I felt a lot of anger at the time of selling the house. You have to feel it to get through it, even if it is horrid. But don't dwell.
Sorry I haven't been around much, I've been taking a bit of a break.
Hi Julia,
I'm on holidays and I've been spring cleaning and I think the cleaning plus the Christmas season is getting to me. I found letters and cards H had sent me and I had a few tears as I re-read them and I felt both angry and regretful that the love we once shared is now gone and over.
S went to the business dinner the other night and the stuff he relayed about OW really confirms that H is a totally different person if he's satisfied with her. She's the very person H would have mocked in the past. However, she hangs on his every word and this obviously makes him feel good.
Selling the business was a relief, I think but I guess the settlement anxiety raises its head now. When my brother and his family arrive I'll be distracted again.
Hi Cas
I too have not been around as much, work is crazy and trying to put 100% into re-establishing our relationship but I have been lurking in the background.
Cas it is understandable that you are feeling a whole range of emotions at this point as things are now moving toward closure of the life you once shared with your H. Let the emotions out, deal with them and then you will be okay,I am sure you have strength in you to get through this, it won't be easy but at least at the end you will be able to move forward and do the things your heart desires. Be strong Cas, I am thinking of you (believe me I am) and will be sending prayers of support your way.
Hopefully once you are ready and able we will still be able to meet.
((((((((((Cas)))))))))
Sorry Cas somehow I missed all of this!
It must be quite hurtful having to find things and knowing it all seems lost, I keep feeling drawn to the pot where H has left his wedding ring, although I know we are practically back together, well living together most of the week and him just going to do his hobbies, I still keep going to look in the hope he may have put it back on or at least taken it with him.. Im on FB too and have just joined the DB Xmas group, I dont really want to put my name on here incase H ever did a search it would pull it up! So give me a clue to follow!
This time of year is always hard I think, well January always seems to be worse for me (which is why I'm heading to the other side of the world!!). Distraction is good, but it is completely understandable that you are feeling the way you are.
I don't understand why they choose ow, apparently ow in my sitch is thick as. Jody said to me once that to H I was the prize; to ow our h's are the prize which is obviously an ego boost. That is why I think it is important that we get our spirit back . That is why I have found Gucci's advice invaluable. Be strong Cas.
Hello again Oz, Rabbit and Julia and thanks for your support. It's certainly much appreciated. I am determined now that this is the end of my M and I will be proceeding with settlement and divorce. I am tired and I need to put me, my kids and my health first. It doesn't mean it will be easy but I am not prepared to spend the rest of my days being in a relationship where H shows such little respect and care for me. It's still all about him and although he has improved it's honestly not even close to where he should be. I am always looking out for him and excusing his behaviour. I have accepted my responsibility but as yet, he has not. The reality is that I deserve more than he can give.
My 'downer' from the past days I think has come from my cleaning....I have cleared a lot of stuff including my wedding dress and lots of other personal stuff. Hopefully it's also been about clearing myself and cleansing and healing me. I needed to feel this pain so I can move on to bigger and better things.
I do want to stay in touch with you guys. I will be forever grateful for your care and support in the worst time of my life. This was so much more difficult than anything i have ever experienced.
Oz, I will be coming to Melbourne in January. I need to confirm dates with my brother as I will be staying with him. Will you be going away? I will let you know here and we can arrange a date...a Friday is best for you. Can we meet in the city, do you think?
Julia, when are you departing? It would be good to be able to catch up with you! Keep in touch, esp if you decide to divert to the GC or Melbourne. Give us some dates for different places so we can follow your itinerary. Will you post on FB while away? You already have my email from FB anyway.
Now Rabbit, I'd like to say I'm coming to the UK but that's not the plan for the minute (but I am known to change my mind!) I do want to travel in the very near future. I think the FB group you were trying to join is now by invite only at this stage. Anyway Rabbit, email is probably good. To begin you will need 4 random letters of the alphabet. It reminds me of the CT scan I had recently. JO had one too.
Hugs to you all
Cas
Only thing I can think of Cas is Cat but that is only three not four unless we are talking plural moggies lol!
Rabbit read the last 2 sentences and I have put the 4 letters in there in capitals. Then check your thread
(((Cas))))
I understand exactly how you feel. There are good things in store for you and you know in your heart that you did everything you could to save your marriage. So much more than most in this world and that is something to be really proud of.
I'll try and do some updates on my thread as I travel. I set off on Christmas Eve. I doubt I'll be diverting to Melbourne as I only really have two full days in Oz.
Thanks Julia. Only someone like you can know the loyalty and commitment we have shown in the face of such hurt and devastation. I have always felt there is something better out there for you and now I must believe that for me as well.
Hi Cas
I will be around in January, we are going away from the 22nd to the 27th January, but apart from that I will be here. Will be great to catch up with you, the city is fine with me. I would love to be able to email you as well Cas is that is okay with you.
I am positive Cas that great and wonderful things await you now, your decision has been a hard one, but you have put in a lot of hard work and effort and now you deserve to think of you and what is best for you.
(((((((((((Cas)))))))))))))
Love to hear from you via email Oz. I hope you have managed to play detective from my message on this thread and rabbit's. I will add the next bit now to rabbit's thread. Then if you have it altogether send me a test email.
You're right, my decision has been a hard one but it has to be about me now!
Oh Oz, forgot to say that I will be back to work by 22 Jan so that will be great!
All through our M H seemed to choose work over the kids and I. He worked every weekend and holidays were about me taking the kids somewhere and H joining us for 2-3 days. He didn't really have to work but he 'had to' because he needed to stay in control. There were very few outings except to dinner as a family.
Since our separation H has been to several concerts and had several weekends away. Now he's taking a holiday, destination unknown. I don't deny him a holiday but I must admit to feeling pi$$ed that he's doing all these things now and with OW. There's hurt for the fact that he couldn't ever give time to do these things with his family.
I know it's not about her, it's about him. She just comes along for the journey. I feel pathetic writing this but I am hoping writing it will be therapeutic.
Lots of 'stuff' coming out at the moment, mainly hurt and anger.
Like so many other WAS H has abandoned his responsibilities and I am left looking after the kids and holding it altogether. He seems to have it all; life with a partner, time with his kids as it suits him, time alone, a career change, a new home and car.
Signed, Tired and Pi$$ed!
Hi Cas
I am not the best detective but I will give it a go and see if I can work it out.
You know, you once commented that your H and mine you thought were pretty similar, and reading your last post, you are right. My H did the same things, work work work, no time for family or me, same thing, needed the control factor which he still does to a degree, hates to not be in control.
I can understand your being pi#@ed, I was for a long time too, especially when he would find time for buddies and work colleagues but never his family.
It is good that you are venting all of this, you need to for your own healing, so go ahead Cas and say whatever is on your mind.
Hi again Oz. Thanks for your words of wisdom. I finally decided to mention MIL's birthday to him and asked if we could meet to discuss but he refuses. A grumpy phase again...great!
This next paragraph should help you and I will put further info on your thread.
Now Rabbit, to begin you will need 4 random letters of the alphabet. It reminds me of the CT scan I had recently. JO had one too.
Thanks Oz. By the way, I need to change my internet provider soon when our settlement is sorted. Do you have internet at home? I currently use ozemail but I'm looking to change.
Hi Cas,
Aren't the grumpy phases just a treat.
For internet at home I just bought a mobile broadband USB from Vodafone, but it doesn't do email, Optus' mobile broadband has email though. I did it this way as this home is temporary.
When I move again next year I will be looking at getting engin or one of those that use the internet for phone calls.
Hmm something to think about cos our home phone is with telstra but the internet is too expensive with them.
So Oz, I think with my last message you should be able to contact me. Use the 4 capitalised letters from the paragraph to Rabbit @ my internet provider with the usual finish in Australia.
As for the grumpy phase we're back to not speaking and text replies that say whatever
Telstra is might expensive for internet. I definitely think the providers that use the internet for phone calls is the cheapest because you pay the one fixed fee that covers everything. Giving it a whirl now hope it works, fingers crossed.
Just saying hi Cas, and popping in to say that whatever your travel plans may be, that ice cold sling is still available at the bar
.
Sounds mighty good Deep. I would love to come over for a short trip but unfortunately I'm not made for solo travel and don't have a travel companion at this point. Maybe on my way to Philippines, Japan or US? I'll be sure to let you know when I get myself sorted!
My hurt continues...H is taking OW to Fiji...the place we went for our honeymoon. Am I being overly sensitive or is this just insensitive?
Not being overly sensitive at all, that is sh!t. My h did the same, even did the same activities as we did. I had to endure the photos on FB - of course it was my choice to look!
They remember it as a nice holiday I guess and it means they have to put no effort into thinking up something original, was the way I looked at it. Plus the fact WAS/MLCers are not known for their sensitivity.
My x did the same-wasn't x at the time. I told him how hurt I was he honestly had no idea why, he just said "I" didn't stay at the same hotel---oh well thats ok then I feel so much better now.
I think JCJ has it right.
Yeah, it's not only the place where we had our honeymoon but it's also the place we had a family holiday just 2 years ago.
Just after he left was our anniversary and he chose that weekend to have a special weekend away.
Like your H, Julia mine has taken OW to lots of concerts and they've all been artists we had seen together or ones I enjoy. Now I hate those artists!
Naej, your x's comments sound like something my H would say.
On the positive side, this has only reconfirmed my resolve to divorce this stranger.
Have my passport out and ready to go!!! Ha, ha, Where will I meet you Julia?Thanks guys. I needed to hear from you
Cas
I've woken today with a new peace; one that acknowledges that I gave everything to my marriage both during and for the 2 years after. I am proud of my efforts to be the 'bigger' person through all of this.
There's been two years of reflection and an acknowledgement on my part of the mistakes I made. I have made every attempt to be friends and to support him as he has rebuilt relationships with his family and his children. I have nurtured him through LL.
In return I've experienced random acts of kindness, temper tantrums, lies and no respect. Today I want peace and good health for me.
From now, it has to be about me. I have spent all the years being a giver to H but now I am just burnt out, with nothing left to give.
Cas its good to hear you have found some peace on what to do with H. You have given him plenty of time to get his head around things from his end and although things are much better there does have to be a time to move on. I just want to wish you all the best in 2010 that you get all that you deserve and plenty of happiness!
Have you picked up the first bit of my info, if so I will add the next bit! I cant work out your puzzle too dense at the moment lol!
(((((Cas)))))))
My heart is with you. It's your turn now. God bless.
Rabbit, I have that info. Thanks.
Luvless, thanks so much for your kind words. They are appreciated!
It's early Christmas morning in Australia. The sun is out.....'cold and frosty 's what it's not'.
Sending Christmas wishes to everyone on DB. May the peace and joy of Christmas be with you all.
Cas
Merry Christmas Cas. Just getting dark here where I am on Christmas Eve.
Hi GIMA, Thanks for your wishes. I've had a lovely day with my family. It was so relaxing with loads of food and drinks and lots of laughs. It was very warm and humid so a late afternoon swim and games in the pool added to the relaxed nature of the day. This is the first Christmas that I have felt both peace and joy in a long time. It's a great feeling! Wishing you all the best for your Christmas GIMA! Hope the excitement and joy of your kids warms you.
Cas
Christmas Eve my SIL and I went to dinner and for a few drinks at the casino. It was fun and filled in an evenin g which could have been a melancholy one as my kids were with H for the night.
The kids were back just before our visitors and we were able to share our gifts together then. Shortly after my family arrived. We had such a wonderful time together. WE had great food, drinks and plenty of laughter. It was a lovely, relaxing time.
We tried something new with our adult gift giving this year; we all have everything and so the gift giving is really just a token aspect of the Christmas ritual. Each person received 3 gifts....one beginning with letter J, O, Y. Ea gift had to be less than $10. It was fun... and people still received personalised gifts... the plant, Jester's Joy for the gardener, the organic chocolate for the environmentalist, the photo frame for You and Yours for the photographer.
Lots of food and drink- Prawns and oysters to be Aussie with great wines, a huge roast and plum pudding in dedication to our British roots and some French champagne.
Late afternoon we went in the pool and played volley ball. My brother made up some MIdori Splice cocktails and we sipped those as the sun went down(and the mozzies came out).
Late in the night as I climbed into bed I reflected on the fact that for the first time ever I hadn't had any Christmas contact with H. Strangely, I felt at peace with this,,,there was no expectation of it anyway. However, calls, texts and emails from my family and friends gave me great joy and helped me recognise that I am blessed with so many wonderful family and friends. Life has been painful over the past five years. It can only get better from here on in.
My family is about to arrive again for Boxing Day 'leftovers,' another swim, a few more drinks and a rowdy and well contested game of Trivial Pursuit. I can't wait!
Sound heavenly Cas, its cold and we have the remnants of the snow and ice, glad you had a nice day yesterday. I rang Nell yesterday and she sends her love and best wishes to you and if you could pass them on to Oz. I have her email address so when we are all connected I can pass it on to you as she'd love to get in touch.
Thanks Rabbit. All sounds terrific. Is this the end of the sig? I have tried already.
Life has been hectic with all the visitors at our place. I farewelled one brother and family tonight. My other brother and his family are still here.
H has continued to be quiet aside from a couple of emails about my internet account. I have deliberately said nothing about the trip to Fiji. I'm not going to let him know it bothered me.
H was in contact over some videos of the kids that he was organising to be copied. Said he wanted to be friends. I said, "Do you mean friends or do you mean civil." He replied, "Hopefully friends" I asked what friends looked like but he couldn't articulate. Not good enough for me!
All through our M H seemed to choose work over the kids and I. He worked every weekend and holidays were about me taking the kids somewhere and H joining us for 2-3 days. He didn't really have to work but he 'had to' because he needed to stay in control. There were very few outings except to dinner as a family.
I hope this is taken in the manner it's meant as I have caught up on your thread in the last few days.
I can relate to your H because that is exactly what I did during the M (and my W did to the same extent). Since splitting I have had nights out, concerts etc. just like your H. And just like you and your H, me and W only ever really went out for family dinners and little else.
However, my reason for doing this is because prior to the separation I decided to stop work at 6pm or when my W came home from her work (I work from home). I noticed that a problem for us was the amount of time we both worked. I regulated my time. W didn't (although it was more difficult for her).
Since splitting I have realised that I should work to live and not live to work. My priorities have shifted and I hope stay that way, however I'm wondering if maybe your H is the same?
The difference between me and your H is I didn't leave, I have no OW. I know the thread has moved on slightly but as I said, I thought I'd throw it out there, feel free to shoot it down.
Hi P17,
Thanks for your wisdom. I agree with you. H worked incredibly hard and so did I. I was aware of my commitments to the family and regulated my hours and this, too was easier for me than him. My LL is Quality Time so that made it even more difficult for me to accept his non attendance at events and his lack of involvement.
H has said, like you, that he now realises that life is too short and is making the most of things. While I appreciate his personal growth it doesn't change the pain I feel when I know he is doing all the things I wish he'd shared with me. In fact, the outings and holidays are remarkably similar to those we would have chosen as a couple. OW is ten years younger and so I wonder at some of the music choices in her eyes. I am still certain the holidays and outings are all driven by him and she goes along for the ride.
It was really helpful to read your experience and I thank you for sharing.
Cas
Hi Cas
Have to say I told H that if he insisted on us being divorced that I couldnt be friends. How can you be friends with someone you love/loved. Well I know I couldnt have been so yes it would just have to have been civil as thats all I could do without breaking my heart!
Rabbit, you're right but it's a non-event anyway because what H says and does are two different things.
H said I was too impatient and I should just let things unfold naturally. Well I think that's what I have been doing as I haven't made contact at all, not even for Christmas. I will resume my nc and see what happens.
Sending wishes for a Happy New Year to all.
I spent the night with my parents and one of my brothers and his family. It was pleasant.
Happy New Year (((((Cas))))),
I am feeling your thoughts and just wanted to tell you so....
I have been following along with your holidays, posting for me is once again painful.....I can't quite figure out why I go MIA so often. All I know is the subject matter is way to close to my heart and sitch and it's very painful for me to read so many like stories.....I hurt for us all.
I know you are a very strong-willed and wonderful person, you will be fine with your choices. It doesn't make them easier to follow....times will continue to be confusing and unjust to us, at least for a while longer.
I am thinking that if H and I follow through with a D, "civil" will be a possibility, while hopefully contact will be minimal. "Friends" = Impossible, for me it will be too painful to be a friend with what has happened between us and the fact I have no respect for his choices.
IMO for our H's wanting to be our friends (after D) will validate their choice and they won't deserve that gift from us.
Rabbit, It would break my heart too and I would never heal, rather remain in this state of want, wanting what would apparently be unattainable and delusional.
I still feel it is a shame for two people to D who have so very much in common and a mutual likeness for each other which is undeniable. A likeness which could very easily become a deep love for one another once again.....It takes two however to want the same things.
I have to stop rambling.....
Let's reach for Happiness in 2010!!!!
(((((Hugs))))))
Sanderika
Hey Cas,
As you know, I struggle with the friends thing too. I had to roll my eyes when your h said about you being impatient. Was that recently or a while ago? Wow, if you were impatient I would be really interested to hear his definition of patience - 1 year, 5 years to be friends. Sorry, perhaps that isn't helpful.
My h became job obsessed and is again with his new job. I wish more people would realise that work/ life balance. I read somewhere that if you were on your deathbed it is unlikely that your last thought would be 'I am so glad that I did all those extra hours in the office'. Imo that puts it in perspective, but I wouldn't point it out to h lol!
Happy New Year, as you said to me make this year about you.
(((Cas)))
Hi Sanderika and Julia,
No friends can't work. I feel I am just being used for my forgiving nature. Yes, Julia that patience comment was just the other day. It's just an excuse used to keep me close at hand. No!Can't do it anymore. Tonight S came home with some marinated cheese for me from H. Not sure what that was about and don't care either.
Yes, Julia 2010 is it! So far I have organised a trip to Melbourne, to Sydney for a weekend to see Wicked, a week in Phuket in June and one semi organised to Cebu July/Aug. It's all about me!! H has Fiji with ow, the classy one who whistles her children home for dinner. Just thinking that makes me feel better already!!
Talk about GAL then! Phuket in June ... that's gonna be fun, how I miss those days when I would visit 3 -6 times a year
.
Hey there Deep,
Congrats on the new baby boy!!!!!!
It's good for the heart and soul to read about another poster's
journey back into happiness with his family.
I wish you, your wife and children a very healthy, loving and
happy 2010!!!!!
Sanderika
Hi Cas,
I am proud of you for organizing the trips for "you".
I wish I were in a position to do the same. I have a young son and am not in a time or place for the freedom.
YES, 2010 will be about you!!!!
After this journey of pain, you deserve to be happy and free.
Your health is once again good and you should take advantage of "your" time.
H can "go pound sand", as we say here, it's his loss and one I am sure he will realize soon enough.
IMO the marinated cheese was a simple gesture of friendship. I believe he knows you like it and was thoughtful enough to share it with you. No more and no less.
IMO they really do care about us and want the best for us. They just can't seem to come back to us and the family. It's time to move forward.....long overdue.
Hindsight is 20/20 and after this we should have seen the writing on the wall long ago.....We are romantics at heart and made the choice to fight for what we loved. We are good people for having done so.....
(((((Cas))))) it's onward and upward.....with a clear mind and heart only good things can come our way.....
Sanderika
Wow Cas all the holidays sound fab!
I definitely think that one of the bonus's of absent H's is that we do get on and do things for ourselve which I bet if we hadnt separated we wouldnt have ever thought ourselves capable of doing. Im seriously thinking of having a week away with my friend C this year, just a girlie holiday!
I've never been to Phuket, Deep, only Bangkok. I'll be visiting for just a week with my kids.
I love Asia so I'm open to visiting any place. I'd love to travel more but I'm both an introvert and a people person so I need the company of others but I'm not so good at making the introductions.Therefore, I don't like to travel alone.
The Cebu trip will be a couple of weeks, all being well.I'll go there by myself and meet and stay with friends there. I love Cebu but it's a long time since I've been there so I expect it to be very different. I expect I'll be contacting you about that time for that long overdue sling!!
Going to Melbourne alone but have friends and family to visit . Sydney is only for a weekend to see Wicked with some girlfriends.
G
Hiya, Cas,
That sounds like a *wonderful* trip. I'm envious! Hope you have a wonderful time.
Dia
Hindsight is 20/20 and after this we should have seen the writing on the wall long ago.....We are romantics at heart and made the choice to fight for what we loved. We are good people for having done so....(((((Cas))))) it's onward and upward.....with a clear mind and heart only good things can come our way.....Sanderika
Sanderika, what you posted here was entirely spot on. I kept hanging on way past the due date but I know now that I was loyal to the end and I gave it my everything. I am a person of depth and integrity and I am loyal and loving. I walk my own path now with a clear conscience that I attempted to right any wrongs and clear in the knowledge that I have lived with the pain of this MLC for an extraordinarily long time. OW has no pize. He can buy her all the stuff in the world but at the end of the day we all know that holidays and presents will never replace human emotion.
Feeling really good at the moment. Have been socialising with friends a lot over the past week. I recognise that spending time with others nourishes me and gives me energy. (My LL is quality time so this makes sense) I am lucky to have friends and family. Although 2010 will have difficulties with the settlement and divorce, it is also alive with many wonderful opportunities and possibilities. I must choose to embrace them.
Hi Cas
You’re sounding good. Seems that you’re reconciled to the outcome even though it may not have been what you would like. That’s good – we didn’t choose this path but all we can do is make the most of it and you’re doing that.
There will be ups and downs along the way of course, but the downs will get less and the ups more over time.
I think that so long as you’re certain in your own mind that you did everything you could to save the M you will have peace.
Bon voyage it all sounds great
It all sounds so positive Cas. Great!
Those trips sound like so much fun!!!
[quote=bonnyhThere will be ups and downs along the way of course, but the downs will get less and the ups more over time.
[/quote]
Good to hear from you Bonny. I'm sure you're right with this...it just takes such a long time. I feel great and then I get upset over a song, a restaurant, a memory. Ugh!
Hi Cas,
Your memories won't go away, it's how you handle them in the present that matters.
You are doing fine. It will get easier. I think you are over the hardest part. Yes, it has been a long time coming. It could not have happened any other way for you (or me).
I am you in so many ways, I completely understand. My memories of the past do not creep in so much any more. I have made it a point to live in the present moment. I strive to leave the past in the past knowing full well I have learned volumns from my experience and am a better person now for having had to live it.
(((((Cas))))) I see you doing the same. This has made you wise.
Our futures hold so much promise. We are going to make fabulous friends (and lovers) to someone!!!!!
Like I say.....Onward and Upward!!!!!
Sanderika
I can feel the changes, Sanderika...I just feel so annoyed with myself for still caring for him and still hurting over the memories. I know I'm in a better place now than I was a year ago.
I am working hard trying to get a clear picture of my finances; my expenses etc and then I'll get legal advice. The business stuff is almost wrapped up so we can sort it all from then.
I need to determine if
1.I let him file for divorce if he ever does (then I am never knowing if or when it might come)
2. I file and have it sent to him (I'm showing some control of the situation; a 180 but could get him offside just before we consider financials. However financial aspect will get him offside anyway. Then I go to court.)
3. I approach him and we file together. This is my usual approach; fair and considered.
I am tired of the push and pull. I know that if we don't wrap it all up it will drag on forever and this is not good for me. I need to get off this rollercoaster. It was once said to me you're on a rollercoaster but H is not on it with you. Very true!
Yesterday I went back to work after 7 weeks at home. When I reunited with my colleagues several commented that I looked really happy and relaxed which was funny because I felt quite tired and the break wasn't overly relaxing for me as I was stuck in a 'hot bed of emotion' as I cleaned through cupboards, sorted and threw out stuff and returned gear to H. Obviously this process was very healing because I am finally feeling contentment. Today as I was singing along to my ipod I realised, "Wow, I am actually happy!" It's not that I haven't had happy times lately but they've been overshadowed by the 'stuff' in my life. The happy times have been the special occasions, the family gatherings, the outings with friends. Today I'm just happy because I am; there's no reason.
H's trip to Fiji was hurtful but him not being around has been wonderful. I don't want him to return. I don't want to see him anymore. It's taken such a long time but I think I've finally got it, I mean really taken it on board and understood it. I am a wonderful person in my own right and I don't need H. Actually, I don't even know this man but what I do know of him I really don't like. There's no place for him in my life the way he is and probably no place in my life period.
I am even feeling excitement as I face this new year. This is my outlook for 2010 from a fb quiz I took;
2010 is a good time to travel and explore the world and for developing relationships with people from different backgrounds and cultures. This is also a good period for further study, training and developing faith and trust in the spiritual dimension of life. You may get an opportunity to teach, write or share important knowledge and information with others. Don't be pre-occupied with finding the perfect phrase or line, speak from your heart, let the spirit move you.
It really spoke to me as I am travelling and I am studying this year and I have reconnected with lots of friends from o/s lately.
I am doing lots for me. It's my 5 yr cancer anniversary. I have loads of friends and a wonderful family. I live comfortably. I have a fantastic job with a very understanding boss. Blessins are bountiful. It's my time and it's really exciting. This has been a journey but I finally feel I might be on the scenic route now!
((((Cas))))
Absolutely beautiful!!!!!
You are 100% on track, my friend....it's a lovely new start.
You are ready. Enjoy travelling on "the scenic route", I believe you will find lots of new and wonderful treasures along the way, it's all about you.....it's about time!!!!
The "route" you are choosing will be right. Don't fear it, jump right in with both feet!!!! You got it going on now.....
I am so happy for you,
Sanderika
Yes, Sanderika. It's about me and it's about you, too!
(((((Sanderika)))))
New phase; H spending lots of time with OW. Her kids staying at his place occasionally. Meanwhile his own kids getting very little time and attention. No contact with me at all. Perhaps the message is that he doesn't need us in any capacity now or perhaps he is really trying to see if it can work with OW in the long term.
Hi hun been thinking of you! Did you manage to get away for a bit?
I've been thinking of you, too and just been reading your thread to catch up a little. Work has been super busy but I am going to Sydney with 4 girlfriends next weekend to see Wicked
Fantastic! S & GF have seen it several times and really loved the show, hope you have a great time..
Long time since I've posted.......H and I have almost reached agreement on financial settlement. He is being very friendly and supportive, wondering if that's just because he wants me to sign on the dotted line!
Interesting days....settlement is delayed as L is away but essentially we have agreed. H is still in happy mode....being helpful and friendly. OW is still around. However, H drove me for a minor surgery, to and from the airport. Had dinner with D and I last week and again this week. Bought wine for dinner. Made us soup tonight. Texts-but for always for a purpose and sometimes calls when he needs to clarify something. I've seen this all before of course, but there's something different this time. He seems to be more open and more genuine. Maybe I'm wrong.........can't help but be cynical after so long on the rollercoaster.
Not sure what's going on but it's different. D was having dinner with H each week but with homework she decided she didn't want to go so H is coming here for dinner each week so he still sees D but D can do her work as well. Working out quite well cos H is actually helping her with work.
Yesterday D invited H for dinner (weekend)with us. He came and stayed to watch a movie. On leaving, offered to bring dinner for next time.
I can see this is about strengthening r between H and D which is so wonderful. H and I agree that this is a week to week proposal and either one can pull out of the arrangement. Am I stupid to allow this arrangement?
today I got an email from H......It started, "Hi Cas". Not sure if that's happened since he left....
H came for dinner. He helped a little.....not as much as I'd like though. He was pleasant company. At the beginning I contributed to most of the convo but after a while he contributed too. There was some friendly gibes, as well. He received and sent a text while here and apologised for it. I asked him to stop by the store and get bread and potatoes on the way here which he did. He also brought wine as well.
H can't come on Tuesday next week as he has to work. I offered to cancel or another night. He took the other night option.
After he went home he emailed details about a concert I had mentioned.
Hi
sounds like you two are getting on better. Which is probaly good for the kids. However if OW is still around I shouldn't read anything else into it apart from that. Also whilst the financial stuff still needs sorting it's in his interest to keep you on side.
Do the kids see OW at all?
<lurk lurk lurk>
Just reading and catching up.
Hi Dia, Good to know you're around...been wondering how you're going. Will pop by your thread soon. H is still in this positive place...how long will it last? Who knows!
Finally decided I should move to MLC. DB coach thought this was MLC and all my reading indicates this.
Hi Cas
Good to see you around again, will go see if I can track you down in MLC (())