Hey There:
This board has been extremely helpful in helping me cope, and I would like to share my story, and solicit some help.
So my W and I have been married for 2 years, together for 8. We met during the end of our senior year in college.
About 2 months ago during breakfast she was talking about some guy from work , and in a round about way the conversation turned to how unhappy she was in our marriage, and that she was thinking of walking away. As i pressed her, she said she had deep resentment for how many times i moved for my career without proposing to her, our intimacy was extremely lacking. The idea of being with someone else who could make her more happy was on her mind.
Things didn't quite add up, and I asked about this specific guy she had mentioned..of course she said it was ridiculous and that they just worked together. Long story short, I found out they were having an A. The OM doesn't live near us, so they talked a lot, and would met up on a few work trips.
When I confronted my W, she was devastated, begged me to stay, and said the A was over. She even showed me the text to OM saying just that. We had a vacation planned, and I thought it might be a good chance for us to just get away, and reconnect. Big mistake. I found out more details of the affiar (not that it was still ongoing, just more gorey details), and W's lies. She again begged, and begged and said how depressed she was...but promised it was over.
Well...we get back from vacation, and that Monday, I hear her talking to OM again. They had plans to meet in person that week. I immediately made W leave the house, and told her it was over.
My problem is that she shows legitimate remorse for like 1 day, and then tries to act like I should be able to move on, and brings up all of my shortcomings. She still isn't committed to making US work, on the fence. Its hard for me to recover from her affair and mentally deal with that fact that she isn't even sure if we will be together. I totally understand that i need to make some changes, but I feel like in the immediate future she needs to be practically begging to stay with me, and she is not.
Deep down I know I want our marriage to work, but I struggle with how to act around her on a day-to-day basis. Should I use a combination of the DB techniques with how to act to a WW? Should i continue to monitor her because clearly she can't be trusted?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Hi, sorry you find yourself here.
Let me ask you a question - do you have kids? Do you plan to have them? Because my response will vary greatly depending on the answer.
If you have kids already - I would support you trying to work this out. See if she will attend counseling with you, work out what she needs to do to provide transparency, etc.
No kids? If you never plan to have any, and you want to work on this, fine, have at it.
No kids yet, but want them? My advice is to run like hell. Seriously. You're young, only 2 years married, and she's already cheating on you? This is not someone who is a good risk for the long run. I know, because I've been there. My ex-husband cheated on me the night before our wedding (didn't find THAT out until a few years later) and had an emotional affair with her for the first year of our marriage. I left him then but he appeared remorseful so I took him back (without extensive marriage counseling - big mistake.) We made 3 beautiful children, who suffered mightlily when he had another affair when they were teens/preteens. We reconciled and did well for a few more years until he went off the rails again with a midlife crisis and we divorced. My adult children are still affected by the divorce.
So basically, what I am saying is this - once they cheat, that potential is always there in their minds. And once she has shown the lack of character and capacity for lying, the likelihood that she will revert to that when times get tough are high. If you want to take that risk for yourself, that's fine. But if you plan to have kids, think long and hard about whether this should be the mother of your child./
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Deep down I know I want our marriage to work, but I struggle with how to act around her on a day-to-day basis.
First of all, I agree with kml. If no kids, do not have any with this gal.
As for day to day, you can follow the 37 rules, which come from Divore Remedy. Have you read that book?
Her remorse will not hold true until she really ends all contact with OM and goes through the withdrawals. As it stands now, you are her backup plan. If things doesn't work out OM, she has the security of knowing ole Achi is waiting for her. When you confronted her, it may have been more panic than remorse you were seeing.
Sandi2, Cadet, KML:
Thank you so much for your responses.
After discovering she still had contact (a week ago) i Kicked her out of the room, and followed Sandi's advice for a WW. She swore it was over this time, and that she just wants to work on us. This is a woman i used to be able to trust with my life...so reluctantly I said she can move back as long as it is just us. Naive? Probably. However, I am a mess. I'm not sure if I will take her back, and she isn't sure if she will be happy in our marriage, but we both know there is love and potential for a saved marriage.
W wants me to attend a wedding with her brother, and his friends this weekend. I don't think she deserves to have me there with her. Especially since the last wedding we attended she was texting/involved with OM. Should i stay firm and not go? Or go and try to forge new connections?
Maybe I am being too naive and I still need to stay on the WS remedy and have her live/sleep elsewhere.
Whew...lots of info for you all. Thank you all.
Achi
Thank you all for the responses.
I understand that it would be easy(er) to walk away with no kids, but at this point if i really am honest with myself I want our marriage to work.
This weekend we were supposed to go to a wedding for W's brothers friend. During W's A I found out she was texting OM, and sending him pics of her at the other 2 weddings we had this summer. Of course I told her no way would I be going with her, and am trying to implement Sandi's 37 steps. However, she keeps promising that the A is over. Am i missing an important event to try and reconnect by skipping the wedding?
Emotionally I am a mess...seeing her drives me crazy, I know I can't tell her what i need to get over her A. But she shows not nearly enough remorse for me, and no effort for intimacy. Its like a power struggle, as to who is willing to walk away,
Thoughts welcome.
Thanks again!
Your W is not truly remorseful about the A. She's just scared that you will leave her. You need to lay down serious boundaries and make her follow them. Top priority would be immediately ending all contact with OM. And you need total transparency from her to make sure that she follows through. That means open access to phone, computer, all social media accounts, etc. If she's not willing to agree then she's not serious about working on your M. She's simply biding her time.
Take it from someone who put up with a WW for years. They are expert liars and manipulators. If you don't get this under control now, she will continue this A and possibly many others until she eventually leaves you. Don't stand for it. Now is the time to make her choose. Stay strong.
I don't think she deserves to have me there with her. Especially since the last wedding we attended she was texting/involved with OM. Should i stay firm and not go? Or go and try to forge new connections?
I know the weekend has passed, but I'll comment on the point I would have made about going. You are correct and she doesn't deserve you going with her. She doesn't deserve
anything from you. However, if you want to have a M with her, you cannot be the one to punish her for her sins. If I had been her, I would have seen this as punitive. Learn the difference in punishing and holding firm with boundaries. You
can give certain conditions to the R, such as complete transparency, etc. Realize too, that if you say it, you'd better be ready to follow through with it.
If she is being honest and serious, she will need every ounce of support and encouragement from her H to just get through her withdrawals. If she sees judgement & damnation in your treatment toward her, she will flee from you.
If she's not being honest, you'll know soon enough. Promising that she's not having an A, and continuing to TM OM is not a good sign. It is not unfair for you to tell her you need her to end all contact with him. It is not appropriate for a married woman to have guy friends that exclude her H. That's just asking for trouble. If she's not willing to give up a "friend" for her H and the sake of her M......then I guarantee he's more than a just a friend.
I know I can't tell her what i need to get over her A.
Maybe you can. Has she asked what it would take for you to get over it? Has she even seemed concern about how you may be feeling over all of her behavior? Has she apologized for anything? Have you seen any change in her? If not....then I doubt it would do any good to tell her what it would take for you to get over her A.
On the other hand, if she really wants to save her M, she will be ready to do whatever you need her to do. If you need her to end all contact with OM, complete honesty, transparency, accountability, MC, or other stipulations in order to reconcile......she needs to know.
She may not have asked b/c she thinks she can continue on as though nothing happened.
What exactly do you need to get over her A?
I understand that it would be easy(er) to walk away with no kids, but at this point if i really am honest with myself I want our marriage to work.
I'm not sure you really understood our points earlier. It's not about whether it's easier to walk away without kids. It's that, if you plan on having kids in the future, you are subjecting those kids to an unacceptable risk of pain and damage from a broken family if you make a cheater their mother.
When I took my husband back after his affair early in our marriage, I was only thinking about the risk that I was taking for myself, and I was ok with that risk. What I didn't realize was that I subjected the three children I later had with him, to that risk. And sure enough, he cheated on me when they were impressionable teens/preteens, then left me several years later when they were just going off to college.
All three of my children suffer from mental health issues that are badly aggravated by the effects of the divorce. It kills me when my youngest tells me he doesn't believe in marriage and never expects to have a happy long term relationship.
I subjected them to this pain by taking the risk of making a cheater their father. Please don't do this to your future children.
Sandi- quick update, I did not go to the wedding with her. Her brother came back to stay with us for a night, and I left the house to avoid contact with her. It made it awkward with her brother. I am not 100% that she is done talking to this guy (although she continues to say she is) my therapist agrees..so I am trying to be emotionally unavailable.
Based on your response and advice i continue to make big mistakes...I asked W to give me space, but when i do see her i continue to fight over the A, and if I'm honest I am attacking her. I need to do a better job of controlling emotions, but its so hard when you see this W you love, and then realize what she has been doing.
TBH i am not sure what i need to get over her affair. I don't want to be the guy that has to snoop, but when I see her on the phone, I always wonder if its the OM.
I need to stay positive, and focus on being a better man. Its hard when I feel like she should be working really hard to gain my trust, but its more like she continues to remind me of where I fell short as a husband.
KML- thank you for clarifying. I definitely did not understand your point. I had not thought about it this way. Tough to look in the mirror and internalize this advice.
I asked W to give me space, but when i do see her i continue to fight over the A, and if I'm honest I am attacking her. I
You are asking
her for space? Is she pursuing you? Do you feel smothered by her?
In your posts, you sound as though you believe she's in an A and hasn't ended contact with OM. Has there ever been any type of A from either of you?
Can you give more information about how you bring up the subject of an A? What is her attitude when this happens?
If you were to discover she lied and is still contacting OM, would it be a deal breaker for you?
Hey Sandi:
To me it seems like she is playing a power game..at times pursuing..texting me "l love you" "its always been you" but then she goes back to blaming me for all the faults of our M, and doesn't understand the pain her A has caused.
After I found out she was still talking to OM, I talked at her about the A. Very accusatory, mean, direct. Basically raw emotions. As you mentioned pushing guilt will get me nowhere..she responds by going right back to how upset with our M she was.
I really think we can have a very happy marriage, but she doesn't seem willing to want to work to rebuild my trust. Since my W and OM still work together, its hard for me to believe they don't talk. Especially after the conversation I heard them having in the past.
Here's a perfect example...this weekend after reading your posts, and re-studying the 37 rules. I dedicated myself. So while on a work trip I don't call or check in, waiting her W to call first. She doesn't. I get home at 10:30 PM and she isn't here...of course my mind wanders. Is she with OM? After being caught in an A, being gone this late w/out checking in is beyond messed up. But i don't panic, call or accuse. Just go to bed. WELLL...she comes home and berates ME for not checking in on her. I feel like everything backfired.
If W wants me to check in and call, show emotion towards her is that a good sign? Should i start to be more aggressive in trying to re-establish an emotional connection?
Thanks!
Joe
Thank you for sharing your story. I sense the deep love that you have for your wife and why you are struggling.
Sandi and others are better suited to help you with your next steps.However, I would like to ask you about your M before the A. What has your W said to you about the M? About you? How much of it do you think is true? Have you started working on yourself, for yourself? Can you use the A as a learning opportunity to become a better man, better husband, better friend, etc.? the A is a symptom of a deeper issue...what were/are the issues in your M?
re: you wife's apparent lack of desire to work on the M...as you know you cannot control her. The only thing you can control is your own words, thoughts and actions. Nothing else. You may be able to influence her to want to work on the M, but you cannot force her to.
If your WW and OM work together, it will be extremely difficult (if not impossible) for her to ever end the A. Even if there is no PA, an EA would continue (at least for her). An EA for women are very serious and should not be taken lightly by the H.
Have you read about PEAS? It explains, scientifically, how the brain if flush with these "new in-love feelings" that equate to a pleasure drug. The person becomes addicted to that sensation, as though they were addicted to a drug. She has to separate herself from her drug of choice (OM). She has to go cold turkey, b/c tapering off doesn't work. Every time she sees him, hears his voice, or reads a TM, it's as if she gets a fix. Then she has to start the withdrawal process all over again. And, she will go through withdrawals if she really ends things with him.
You need to realize a WW is very talented at twisting things around to make it seem the H is at fault. It takes the spotlight off her and shines on him. He suddenly feels guilty or frustrated b/c she has him spinning. Your WW did exactly that when she accused you of not checking in with her. It was to take the focus off what she had been doing while her H was away.
Whenever this happens, don't fall into that snare. Stay firm, calm, strong, and remember that you were not the one who has been unfaithful. The burden of proof is on her! It is her responsibility to show she can be trusted again. It is her responsibility to be accountable for her whereabouts and actions..........not you.
If there is no transparency plan, I recommend you develop one. Otherwise, it is very doubtful you will be able to move forward in a healthy MR. Have you asked her, without any notice or warning, to let you see her phone (before she deletes the TM)? If she balks or tries to erase everything before handing it over, then she's still contacting OM.
There should be no privacy or secret R's in a M. Know what I mean?
Nothing, and I mean NOTHING will work until she ends the A. Until she is willing to end the A, she will not want to cooperate with you to work on the M, and she will not truly feel remorse.
The way I see it, the two of then working together is the biggest stumbling block to her ending the A. Stop blaming yourself. She was not forced into an A.
Quick Update:
Our M is dissolving before my eyes. It is extremely depressing. W uses the fact that I am withdrawing emotionally to focus on myself as way to justify her desire to get a D. It is like every moment, every action is a test. In my mind I still can't trust that she isn't talking to OM, and all she has ever said is "i've said I'm sorry, but..you did this, and that for so many years"
I so want for her to come back to me with regret and want to work on our M, and I am willing to work on myself as well...but its so hard for me to be the attentive guy she wants when I am still not over her cheating.
Her attitude pretty much says it all.
Hi Achi, people often say on this forum - if there's a but, anything after the but negates what comes before it. Your W said 'I'm sorry BUT you did all these things etc.....'
Yes, maybe you did some stuff and perhaps you are owning and working on that. But she's not in a remorseful place just now IMHO....
Totally agree there is a lack of remorse. The fact that W is always looking to start a fight, and then uses everything against me just shows me I need to stick to the 37 rules, and stay disciplined. I feel like our M is on life support, and it is becoming increasingly hard to stay strong.
Sorry you find yourself here, achi.
You have some very wise folks keeping an eye on you.
I am not one of the wise, but I would like to offer some support.
If things in your M were to improve, what would you need to see from her? What would she need to see from you?
If things in your M were to completely fall to pieces, would you be willing examine your part in it? What concerns has your W mentioned that you feel are valid?
I wish you the best of luck, sir. God bless you.
One last thing, if you and W find yourself seriously trying to salvage your M, she should change her place of work as soon as possible. My W's EA/PA found its roots through the workplace. We spent a lot of time talking about it, time that we should have been using to focus on us. It was difficult for me to let it go while she worked with him and I am sure it continued to be an A while she was working with him.
Late30s-
Things started to deteriorate as our sex life went downhill. I blamed W's lack of interest, and began looking for excuses to go out with friends, didn't give her as much attention, and overall wasn't the husband i should have been. We always fought about our sex life after we had been our drinking, and I said some mean things to her. This didn't get any better, and I continued to push her away.
I have no illusions that i was a great husband. It kills me, and i would do anything to go back and talk to myself prior to getting married. To see the girl that would have done anything for me turn to another man, and be willing to walk away is life changing.
I know what i need to work on..and was willing to make every change but once i discovered her A it became hard for me to be the attentive, emotionally available husband she wanted. I wasn't willing to be her backup plan...she continued to lie about the A, and so for every one step forward we would take 3 back.
W has stated that she will not leave her place of work, and that "would that really keep him from contacting me?"
Rough times...
Moving forward, with or without her. Are there any character flaws you'd like to leave behind? Things that you don't want to take with you for the remainder of your life?
I'm not trying to justify her A, just suggesting you work on the things you do have control over. Her A, where it goes, that is beyond your control. I eventually reached a point where it didn't have power over me, she still does, but the A no longer does. I'm still working on the part where she doesn't have power over me. Some days are better than others.
You've probably seen it all over these forums, but you really should focus on making the changes that you want, for you. Not for her.
I agree with you, rough times.
Update:
So yesterday I come home from work and my W is on the phone with her parents. Right or wrong I listened...all she was doing was bashing me to them, literally using anything i had said after finding out about her A against me. She even casually mentioned her A to them, as if to say "i guess this makes me the bad guy now." Really disheartening, again its like she is trying to justify everything, and convince herself the A and leaving is the best decision.
Really disheartening, again its like she is trying to justify everything, and convince herself the A and leaving is the best
Yep! Plus, she was bashing you to her parents so that they wouldn't be so critical of her having an A. See how she laid out everything you were doing, before she threw in the tidbit about herself?
I did the same thing with my parent.
Sandi2 - its all become so surreal. Last night she comes home from therapy (we are both going individually) and goes right to the rooftop to talk to her mom...she is up there for 2 hrs. I can only imagine they are talking about how much of a terrible H i have been, and making plans for D. Of course she could be talking to OM.
Anyhow - on a separate note I watched MWD's Ted X talk "The Sex Starved Marriage" and it hit the nail on the head for us. Do you think it would be a good ideal to send W the youtube link to her talk? I mean it really describes our problems, except I had the higher drive yet she had the A.
Thanks again for all the responses. This board has been great.
Hi Achi, it's not recommended to send your WAS links to things that 'may help your cause.' It isn't for you to 'show her' things like that - merely store what you read and watch for your own development and growth.
Anything that comes from the LBS is just going to have a huge black mark against it...
I sent my W a few things about repairing the betrayal and honesty. She ignored all of it and continued to lie. So I don't think it would do a lot of good if she isn't in a state where repairing the marriage is a priority.
I agree with Sotto. Counseling doesn't seem to be helping the M, and I doubt anything you suggest will be useful. Besides, she's in an A. Until she cuts out OM, you showing her marriage material is not going to work.
Why is she seeing a counselor?
She wanted to take a deep look at what her to the A. From what W has told me counseling has been focused on the history of our relationship, and what will make her "happy."
She wanted to take a deep look at what her to the A.
From what W has told me counseling has been focused on the history of our relationship, and what will make her "happy."
Oh, one of
those type of counselors. No wonder it's not helping the M. She will be encouraged to focus, even more, on her feelings and to find whatever it takes to make her happy.
When I was in my A, I actually went to a highly recommended therapist. I told her right off the bat what I was doing. Her answer? "Oh, there's nothing wrong with what you're doing!"
Doesn't seem to have helped.
At this point it seems like i need to pullback. Not contact her. And move on.
So yesterday I signed up for several DB Coaching sessions, and actually had my fist session last night.
Let me say it was incredibly helpful...being able to talk through my issues was a huge relief and I received some great advice on how to communicate with my W.
I really wish i would have done this 3 weeks ago...
So on Wednesday after my call with a Divorce Busting Coach I come home with a clear mind, and a plan.
When I get home I hear my W on the phone on our porch. She didn't hear me come home, so i put my laptop away, and plan to go make some dinner...however, I can tell that she is really upset on the phone so i listen.
Anyhow, she is talking to her mom, discussing how she is STILL talking to the OM, despite promising me that it was over. She is saying how she might be happier if she leaves for OM. Totally devastating. After making my presence felt she could tell i heard.
Again she started crying begging my to stay..same old story. At this point I feel beyond tested. Maybe ready to move on.
She is crying and begging you to stay as Plan B if OM doesn't work out. Don't be a plan B. Don't forget to GAL.
At what point do you give up?
So I have been doing my best to GAL, and am not around the house that often. Its tough when I interact with my W because I have zero trust, and our fights inevitably go down the same road.
The other night i took some customers to the baseball game, came back late and W is in bed. Without going into specifics, I have proof that basically as soon as I left she is on the phone with OM. WTF? This is the 4th time she has lied about it being over. Anyhow all of her cloths were thrown in the guest room, and I think we are done.
"At what point do you give up?"
That's up to you. Did you ever read the DB and DR books? What were the things that caused your M to spiral out of control? Be honest. I know it's hard to not concentrate on the OM, but you have to change the dynamic.
The M started to spiral as our sex life became non-existent. I was so unhappy with the lack of intimacy that I began to consistently look to volunteer for work trips, go on more guys trips than i should have, and just overall removed myself somewhat from her. NOW, thats not to say i was hardly around, we spent a lot of time together.
She also has significant resentment built up for how our data (pre marriage) relationship was. I moved for work, and put my career success as a top priority.
At this point I could stay home, pay her attention, and quit going out with friends. I get it, but at this point I think that will just push her away more. I mean she consistently talks to the OM but denies it, and is unwilling to consider any actions to regain my trust. Specifically open phone and email, look for new job (she could easily find a new job).
Achi -
Again, sorry you are going through this. I DO think you need to seriously consider, is this person showing you the CHARACTER that you would want in a lifelong mate and mother of your future children?
Let's face it, people can slip and fall, but someone who is of basically good character will feel remorse and do what is needed to repair the marriage. So far, she is NOT doing that.
Personally, I would ask her to move out. I know that seems harsh and counter-intuitive, but in some situations, they need to be awoken from fantasy world and dumped into reality. I think she's actually MORE likely to turn around IF she has to face rock bottom. Right now she is still having her fantasy romance without having to pick up the OMs dirty socks or listen to him snore.
As to her complaints about you - remember to OWN what YOU feel is true, but let go of the rest. They make up some pretty crazy stuff to justify their behavior. Heck, for all you know, the lack of intimacy came about because she was already carrying on an affair with this guy or some other! And maybe you weren't in a rush to get married because on some primitive level of your brain alarm bells were going off that she might not be the best choice.
Anyway - I guess my point is, if I were you, I would NOT tolerate disrespect, and I would NOT sit around waiting for her to decide. I would tell her "It's obvious you haven't decided to give this marriage your all so I would like you to move out this weekend" (Or, if it's better for you, "I will be moving out this weekend"). Protect yourself financially however you need to (perhaps consult an attorney beforehand to make sure you do everything on the up and up). Then just commit to radio silence for a while and focus on working on yourself to be the best YOU can be. Drop the rope on the relationship and get a little distance. Her behavior may help you decide what is best, or she may come back to you begging in which case you can set very clear expectations and see if she rises to the occasion.
But right now, I guarantee you she doesn't respect you. Being a doormat is never a good option.
Ellie
achi
I read up on your sitch. Several aspects very similar to mine in terms of the infidelity.
A couple observations:
- it's very very good that you're doing DB coaching
- you don't seem to be making much progress at detaching. I can tell you, that's something that will really help you even though it's one of the hardest things you'll ever have to do.
- remember that DB isn't first about getting the W back, it's about getting YOU back
My wife did all those things. She did cut off all contact with OM as best I could tell. We went to MC together.
But I gave in too soon many years ago. I re-engaged with my wife emotionally even though she didn't actually go through with all of my requirements for re-establishing the MR. She was really just doing damage control.
So for the past 9 years there has been peace, quiet, some recreation, fun, and sex, but there have been at least 2 EAs I have solid proof of. It's possible that's just the tip of the iceberg. And in the end, my W has moved out anyway and has stated her intention to divorce me. In the end, because I gave in too easy years ago, I've only delayed the inevitable.
It's really important that you focus on you and establish boundaries, detach, GAL, do the 180s. Be prepared to let the M go if she doesn't demonstrate real, substantial change. Talk with your DB coaches about what that should be and look like. Most importantly, giving in because you're hurting won't save your M or help you build a new one.
I'm telling you, you don't want to experience what I've experienced the last several years.
TL2 -
Thank you so much for your insight.
There are 2 central issues that keep setting me back. First, I feel like if I don't try to make connections, or show intimacy towards my W she will just grow further and further apart.
Second, the betrayal really, really hurts. Still. The fact that I have no trust, and assume she still talks to OM (they have to occasionally for work at the very least) makes it hard for me to stay calm during our arguments. I keep giving in and getting in heated, drag-em-out fights.
TL2 - why do you think that during the 9 year period where you were re-engaged she didn't fully commit herself?
I feel like if I don't try to make connections, or show intimacy towards my W she will just grow further and further apart.
I'm no expert but based on MWD's books the opposite is true. The more you pursue, the more she will back off. However, if she indicates she wants some attention from you, that's a different story.
But from what I can tell from your posts, your W has admitted to her mom that she's still emotionally and/or physically involved with the OM! That's a boundary she's crossed that should be unacceptable to you, and which makes her unavailable to you anyway right now. She has to shed him first, no contact, and then you will have to give her time and space to get over it so that she will eventually be open to you again.
That is going to take a while...longer than you want. But you have to stay the course bro.
the betrayal really, really hurts. Still. ...I keep giving in and getting in heated, drag-em-out fights.
That's why you detach. That's why you GAL. That's why one of the best 180s you can do is to cut that stuff out...because giving in does not produce the result you want. All you're doing is venting all of your negative thoughts and energy at her. Hammering on her like that, even if you have very good reasons to be hurt and angry--and you certainly do--will only make her feel like this is even more hopeless. It will also make her close her heart to you more fully.
TL2 - why do you think that during the 9 year period where you were re-engaged she didn't fully commit herself?
I don't know fully why. I know that once I experienced initial success I backslid in the following ways:
- I assumed we had resolved our problems through MC when we actually had just taken an emotional break from them without really solving the trust issues and communication issues.
- I let her off the hook on our 'trust, but verify' agreement.
- The trust issue was huge. I should have stayed in IC a much longer time than I did.
- I pushed too hard once we stopped MC for more closeness and intimacy before she was ready.
- I don't think she really got over all of the negative energy I had thrown at her in the past. We had a lot of bad fights and I yelled a lot in the middle years of our marriage.
Nothing shuts a person down, male or female, like being yelled at and devalued like that. Instead of backing off for a longer period, showing her true love and patience until she was able to work her way back to me, I got too aggressive (very high sex drive, unfortunately) and she decided to meet my physical needs and I (not fully realizing it) stopped meeting her main need right then, which was to give her space.
I DB'd pretty good for the first few months...but we had a convo where we decided we had gotten all we could our of MC...and also didn't want to keep spending the money...and once I stopped that and IC, and didn't have someone I wanted to talk to and give some objective feedback about my impulses and my decisions, we (and I) backslid.
Despite the fact that I had ended the angry outbursts years ago, I didn't end the more aggressive pursuit of her physically and sexually and that was still pressure she didn't want. Being me, at that time I just thought I was showing her how much I really wanted her...but all she saw was someone who didn't love and respect her enough to give her more space.
So we made a lot of progress in our M. We got to be much better companions and friends and enjoyed spending time together, things were generally fun and peaceful. But she had never really taken the wall down.
And now I'm likely facing D in the next couple months. If I had stuck to DB'ing years ago, we either would have been divorced then, or I would have at least done a better job in the recent past so that we would both have had a better chance to be happier, and I would have been actually meeting her needs the way she needed them met.