Here's my previous thread - onto number six!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545660&page=1And thank you Complex for the title of this thread. Do I think all is going well? Not really, but who knows what the future holds. Quick recap:
BD1 - Mar 2014, EA discovered
BD2 - July 2014, H admits PA. I move to parents 2 hrs away
Jul-Sep 2014 - lots of talking with H, A continues, he's 'confused.'
Oct-Feb 2014 - Virtually NC. I rent a flat, build up my own life, no idea of A status
Feb 2015 - H made redundant. Wants to sell our house. Says our R is over, then backtracks. Says he's been stupid, lost sight of what's important.
Mar 2015 - Agreed to sell house, formally S and divide assets and finances using collaborative law process. H wants us to 'move on together' - what does that mean? IDK. Still no mention of D at all and no idea of A status, but suspect it's over.
Well, I've perked up a bit after a teary start to the day. Got up, got busy and have been out for lunch. Just waiting for a call back from a mutual friend of ours (the one who told me H said our R was over.) Not spoken to her in a while, and know she hasn't seen H in a while either.
Printed off some more L stuff and will deal with that later this pm. Plan to head out to aqua aerobics this evening. Think I may also plan a trip up to our MH this week to say goodbye to the bunny and do some sorting...
Cool name for a thread Toots
Good GAL activities. You are always on top of staying busy!
Have s good new thread!
Well, just came off the phone with our mutual friend and it does sound as though OW may be still somewhere in the picture. Of course I didn't ask, but MF told me that H flew out to visit OW just a few weeks ago. She also said that he has been dating when he is away at work too. So it sounds as though things with OW aren't completely panning out and may not be completely over either.
I'm really glad to know this, because I must admit I was feeling a bit conflicted, as you know from earlier posts. As he had emailed me to say he had been stupid and lost sight of what was important etc, I thought things might be well and truly over with OW. But he must have been emailing me at around the time he was going out there. Although it could have been after he came back - IDK - and best not to wonder!
Anyway, good to know all of this and it resolves any concerns I may have had about forging ahead in a business like way.
Funny that MF innocently said H seems to be 'looking for something or someone to make him feel better and isn't finding that.' (Ooh - cheeseless tunnel, I thought to myself!)
Got a bit of a snarky email from H tonight. He thinks we should leave the cat where she is as long as we can, which is fine by me. I'd rather not have to move her. That part of the email was nice.
I had also made a suggestion about selling a big item of furniture we have. H replied with a tetchy tone that we need to just leave stuff like that for now as he has more than enough to think about. Made me realise that I need to put Mrs Fixit back in her box and that he isn't welcoming these kinds of suggestions from me. Shut up Toots...
Evening toots.
No one knows about tying up their inner fixit more than me so I sympathise but dont sweat it too much. Who knows how the sale etc is affecting his thoughts on his choices.
If it doesn't need sorting yet just leave it be there's always a storage unit and removal / dropoff guys to sort that kind of stuff out for later...ooops my Mr f must have slipped a knot, thats it, fetch the duck tape!!
Well, bit of a rough day so far. Decided a visit to the marital home was overdue. I wanted to say goodbye to the bunny and H texted to say cat was limping, so that was on my mind. Woke up early and on the road by 5.30.
I have now been erased at our house. All photos of me and us taken down and replaced with others. None from our time together. All from before we met when SS was really small. I guess it's maybe surprising it took H so long to do it. But hard to see anyway.
Spent some time with the rabbit and said my goodbyes. Hard to do that but I'm glad to know where she will be and think it will be a nice life for her.
Finally, I snooped. Bad idea I know. I guess H's recent 'confusion' has got to me a bit and I wanted to see if I could get more of a feel for where things are at. Just had a look at H's desktop, where he had saved a document called 'another email' in January of this year.
In this, he told OW he loved her. Said things couldn't go on as they were. Her with OM and with him too. It was destructive he said. She thought she could maintain two R's, but she can't. She made him so happy before she went to work abroad and he wants that back again. When she comes back, he wants them to be together. But it needs to be simple, not complicated as it is now. He said she didn't have to respond to the email and he didn't want to argue. But she had to know he has his boundaries and he needs to be able to trust her. etc...
All very difficult to read and I feel just lousy now. Hard to read him professing love for OW so recently and still very much in pursuit. Sounds like she may be coming back to the UK too. So, I know I only have myself to blame and I'm bracing myself for 2x4s. At least it settles any uncertainty I may have had and I can just stick to business from now on. I just feel I'm back on the rollercoaster at the moment and I want to get off.
Oooooh that tough toots.
Hard to handle, maybe some one else will advise.
Yep, just checked and OW has been back in the UK since February. Interestingly, H emailed me with the whole - he's been stupid, lost sight of what's important and so on in late February, so maybe her return wasn't all he hoped for.
I hate that I'm thinking about her again. I've thought of her very little in recent months - time to really work on detaching again...
Hi Toots. Don't sweat the snooping , it's done now so just move on. Very tough for you to read but again you read it and now you know how he feels at the moment. To be honest it sounds as if your H is in a worse place than you. You know how you H feels at the moment but his 'dream' is not the candy coated ideal he thought it would be For me your H is still struggling and from what I've learnt of Toots , your H is under the impression that Toots is not an option
Only Toots can decide if she wants to continue to stand or not. I truly believe Toots will be very happy again whatever she chooses and I'm looking forward to that day for her
Take care, Rd
Only Toots can decide if she wants to continue to stand or not.
Maybe just stand in a different place!
Thanks RD. I guess this also explains why H had bought a bag home of my stuff from our city flat. So I have been erased from there too. Lots of erasing of me going on right now.
I just unpacked the bag from our flat. And I was so upset. A few years ago, I framed a lovely photo of H and me and gave it to him - I think it was for Valentine's day. I thought to myself - he won't send that back. That would be too hurtful. Of course, it was in the bag too. I really, really hate him today.
I have nothing to add but a big hug and "I wish this wasn't happening to you"
Very very tough Please know that just because your H is doing what he's doing it doesn't take away from Toots as a person. Toots can only control Toots Your H is making choices for himself and he will have to live by those choices. Accepting what is happening to us all is hard but we must accept what is and do what's best for us.
Your snooping showed where H is. Not exactly paradise is it. He has broken a family , left a W that a lot of men would kill for and for what ? He's not happy, he's at best an OM but that is what he decided. who knows what's going to happen but for now Toots needs to carry on being the best Toots she can be. Make choices for Toots that will make Toots happy and carry on being the great Toots that we know
It seems a few of my friends on here are struggling today and I wish I had saage words to lift your moods but at least know I'm thinking of you.
Take care, big hug and x. , Rd
((((Toots))))
Sorry its a rough day, bunny and puss would be bad enough (you still planning on taking puss to the new place?).
Its never easy to confront information that's hurtful or unsettling. I try very very hard not to snoop as I've said but sometimes it's best to know whats happening and as rd says it doesnt seem to have been the best set of decisions for H even after very hurtful actions to you. I know I still ended up with information on "thing" which has me unsettled greatly especially since other moves seem so positive so I can understand the feelings of reading something that knocks your equilibrium out, sorry Toots
That damn roller coaster is horrible and Im sorry you're back in the seat. All I can advise is breathe, relax. If you'll indulge mr fixit a moment while I re-secure his chains maybe put the items returned in a storage locker or loft somewhere you wont keep bumping into them right now, I had to do that with pics of w and I for a while. Given current events I may bring one or two out but Im wary of opening myself up too much and making this space too much of a reminder until and unless things definitely start to change.
Take it easy my friend
Thanks so much for taking the time to post. I really appreciate it today. And do you know what? Toots is back!!
I can already feel the abject misery and the anger lifting. Are things hopeless? No. There's always hope while I choose to stand. Things don't look hopeful in the short term, granted. But the jury's out after that. And I can have a pile of stuff thrown at me and still have optimism seep back in after only a few hours. That's not so bad. That's who I've become, and she's okay.
So, I'm going to unpack the car, sort out the stuff and then that episode is over. I'm also going to have a look at the legal paperwork this afternoon. I feel like doing that today!
No huge decisions and actually nothing major has changed in my sitch other than OW is back in the UK. No problem. I always worried that them being 000's of miles apart prolongued the fantasy. So who knows what will happen when they are closer? Best not to worry about that and get on with my life.
You know, I partly feel H is trying to get a reaction from me with the photos, and he'll be disappointed if he is. And who knows? That's quite enough new information and mind-reading for one day I think!
Anyway - I live to fight another day! xx
Sounding much stronger. Well done you !!! Take care. Rd
Thanks so much to you all for your replies. It's definitely been one of the worse days of my sitch so far.
But I got busy this pm. Unpacked the car, did the legal paperwork, did a lot of sorting and throwing out. H had sent my trainers back from the flat, so I decided to take up running (been thinking about it for a while.) There's a little route round the park, which I did today - running and some walking - it took 12 mins. I'm hoping to get that down to 10 mins and do it 3 times a week - new GAL!
Today made me realise that expectations are not your friend. And it is so easy for them to creep in, especially when your S is giving off little signs...and you start to feel a bit more hopeful, then bam! Anyway, I'm much more robust than I was. Today shows me that whilst I get knocked, I also get back up again pretty quick. And that improves as the months roll by.
I feel I've been doing pretty well DB wise - but it's those pesky expectations. I just need to make this all about me now....and really, really not worry about what H may be up to...
Toots
Rough day for you, have you got puss? Her foot?
You know the reality Toots and then you have choices. No guessing for Toots.
The picture thing is hard Toots. You may never know what is in H mind.
Sending you my very best loving hug and thanks for your posts on my thread. Spent a lot of time in police stations today, so a little grim. Felt I might like to start a fund to have comfy seats, coffee table and paint other than British Rail greige. It is bad enough discussing things with strangers without seeing flaking paint and mould. I do say that I was listened too and heard, but there was no wifi to post.
V
Toots, hugs to you! That is so hard, can't imagine how it must have been. You are so strong, and you are doing so well. Don't be afraid to take a little Toots time though. Do something nice for yourself and look after you. It's so hard not to have expectations, I know. How is kitty?
Sorry to hear toots! I agree with Susana. You are allowed to feel down. Realizing this helped me greatly. Don't he too hard on yourself. Love yourself, you deserve it!
You didn't have much contsct to H over the last few months did you? Does he know you don't want this and still love him?
I don't want to encourage you to do or say anything. I'm just wondering.
Love is the answer to most of my questions. But it starts with yourself, you have to respect and love yourself. And as the person everyone knows you here, that shouldn't be too hard
Thanks Everyone!
V and Susana - kitty is fine. She had a toenail that had grown too long, and she quietly sat on my knee whilst I trimmed it. She's a nice old girl. H and I decided it is best to leave her in situ for as long as possible. I hope that she may peacefully end her days there without us having to move her. We have lovely pet ladies who look after her when H is not around.
Complex - no H has no idea how I feel. We haven't discussed it in months. Although the last time we did (September?) he knew that I hoped we could work things out. Advice from the vets is not to say anything, so I won't. As far as he knows, I am happy in my new life here....which to an extent I am of course, and still working on that....
Wow - yesterday was tough! It makes me realise that I need to do some work on myself in terms of detachment. I realise that I have my signature line - strength, balance, grace - that feels important to me, but I haven't really posted what that means in practice. So I'm going to look at what I actually DO to 'live' these values:
Strength
My boundary (held very firmly) is that I won't live in an open R
I won't be 'friends' with H whilst he is conducting an A
I am DBing and only contact H on a minimal basis. I don't tell him how I feel. I act 'as if'
I hold strong about the house and financials. We must properly settle finances before the house can be sold
I am standing for our marriage. My feet are firmly planted in the sand and the waves wash around them.
Balance
I am keeping my finances balanced, although funds are limited right now
I am running, doing yoga, aqua aerobics and eating well to keep my health in balance
I meditate, journal, read and post on the forum to help balance my emotions
I GAL to keep my life in balance and not obsess about marital troubles
I try and take a 'balanced' view of the sitch - not seeing the worst or expecting the best
Grace
I don't bad-mouth H or OW. The worst ranting I do is on these boards
I offer help and support to H when I think it may be needed. I mostly feel compassion towards him.
I hold true to values that are important to me, despite current challenges
I bear current challenges with dignity and with compassion towards others
Sometimes, I light two tealights and I wish H (and myself) good luck on our journeys
I'm glad to be 'home' again after the traumas of yesterday. I can feel calm and normality returning, although it may take a little while. This morning, I am at the bookstore, and I'm having coffee with friends later. Hopefully it will be a nice day, and H can fade into the background for a while....
Toots
Glad Kitty is OK.
I love your ideas on strength balance and grace. Very elegant indeed Toots.
H being out of work is likely to affect A. It is a year 'in' now so some normalising should begin around now. The next big moment is when the house is sold.
Thank you for your help on my sitch.
V
Been out all day - bookstore then coffee with friends. All very nice and feel some normality returning. Since I am home and reading the forum, I'm mulling over the fact that H has been an OM for a year now. That astonishes me. Someone described OM as 'pond scum' and that's hard to read, because my H is an OM and presumably the partner of OW still doesn't know about the A. Now clearly my H is unhappy about this and is talking boundaries. But he's still there carrying on, asking her to break things off with her man. I just can't believe it. I lose respect for him knowing this.
Also, I read a post by Zues about 'addicts' that resonated with me. Some people complain that their WAS's don't feel consequences, but they are really stacking up for my H.
He lost me and our family life. He now looks after SS alone. Our rabbit is about to be re-homed. Our home is being dismantled and will be sold. The minimal financial settlement he had in mind doesn't cut it legally. He has lost good friends. His family are unhappy about the situation. His XW is unhappy about the impact on SS. SS will have to move and will lose friends.
In addition to all the above, he has lost his job. Presumably not linked to OW. But at what point does he stop and look at the wreckage his life has become? All because of an OW who doesn't 'love' him enough to break things off with her own partner...
It's complete madness.....has he lost his mind??? Just needed to get that out really...
I am so sorry to read about your situation. It does seems that your H has lost his mind. Do you think it's MLC or is just being an a**hat?
Keep up your GAL activities.If he never snaps out of it, you will be a better and stronger person regardless.
Keep the faith Toots!
It's complete madness.....has he lost his mind???
My guess is - YES!
Sorry toots
Dont have any answers for your h or even what's going on in my sitch. But I will say
((((((Toots))))))
It's complete madness.....has he lost his mind???
My guess is - YES!
Cadet you make me smile. And I agree with you x10.
I have this image of Toots H looking under carpets, cupboards and waste paper bins looking for his mind, when all the time he casually lent it to OW and she misplaced it somewhere.
V
It sounds a bit like 'In search of Reagan's Brain!' Do you remember that one??
Toots
I will google it!
I assume H is nothing like Reagan, but his brain might be.
(You know I love you? :D)
V
Oh ok your H is still having an A. Well that eradicates my thought of at least letting him briefly know how you feel about the situation.
Otherwise I'd have said sth like you will never ever reconcile if you never have contact or so. Not saying you should pursue him but I assume WAS's often 'erase' that their spouse actually doesn't want this.
And yes, your H must be crazy.
Do you actually ever imagine yourself with someone else than your H?
Thanks V and Complex. V, I hope you enjoyed Doonesbury's 'In search of Reagan's Brain.' I loved in in the '80s (apologies any Reagan fans...)
Complex, I'm not sure of the A status. The email text I found was from January. OW returned to the UK in February. And H contacted me in later Feb, saying he had been stupid and lost sight of what's important...etc...so I think he has been disappointed. I still think he's in a wayward state of mind though....albeit with some little glimmers of potential change.
My take on this all was that H thought - if only I could get OW back to the UK (and presumably away from OM) things will be ok. But she came back and things don't seem ok....H is actually dating others ATM, so I don't think the A is 'blossoming' ATM - but there may still be some 'toxic' on/off/on cycling going on still - IDK.
I do wonder if this is an MLC. H lost loads of weight, got very fit, started wearing more 'out there' clothes. Became generally unhappy with life. Firstly more work, later more life in general and then me/us. Then decided to start 'dating' when he was working away, and went out with two other women before AP. He was positively looking to get involved with someone else. Lots of MLC signs I think.
Truly, H is (was?) a lovely person and the 'alien abduction' analogy rings somewhat true. Our MF, who I chatted to the other day, has known H for years and is so shocked at recent events. She would not have believed this of him either.
Not that I'm trying to absolve myself of any blame. There were certainly ways in which I could have been a better wife. But I was loving, supportive and faithful - a 'good enough' wife.
I think the 'erasing' of me is either linked to OW coming back, or a general reaction to where things are at, and H feeling he's got to move forwards.. Certainly he seems on a pretty short fuse with me lately. I think that's going to get worse as we sort financials and the house.
Still coming to come to terms with recent events. Can I imagine myself with someone else? Not right now is the answer. And not for a while probably. Sorry, I know my focus is on him a lot right now. I just need to get all of this out and move forwards. I'll get there...
Toots
Or may be he had eggs for breakfast, or, or, or..............
My darling, carry on with your life, your world is as you make it.
If H wants back in then he knows the door is open.
V
Toots,
I don't see anything wrong with you not imagining yourself with another person. Surely the reason we're all here is to win our spouses back. The advice others have given me seems to apply to you to, as hard as it is you must detach from your husband. Like Vanilla said, if H wants back in he knows where you are. In the meantime snooping through emails for updates (I know, I've done it) is only going to slow you down in gaining control of YOUR life.
hi Toots, I know how hard it is but as the others have said before me, all Toots can control is Toots. Your H does sound like a MLC, Wayward Spouce, etc but what differance does it make ? He may come out of it he may not. Toots controls what she does. Life without your H by your side is really hard and you want him back but Toots has so much love to give and life to enjoy that perhaps Toots should try to Live her life as it is now. Very , very easy for me to say, I know but Toots needs to keep very busy and maybe bring some sunshine into some other peoples life that will in turn bring sunshine into hers.
You are a wonderful person and trust me, people are waiting to meet someone like you. Take care, Rd
Sorry. I almost feel bad I triggered this thought process about H in you^^
Of course you gotta get this through and then out of your head.
I don't think either that it's wrong to see yourself with someone else.
It's part of valuing yourself for who you are and realizing that there is someone ekse out there who would do the same.
It helps greatly in detaching and morally it's not wrong I think, because it's not specfic and God wants us to love ourselves too, because if we don't we can't truly love others either!
Thanks very much for your posts! And Complex, don't feel bad - it's useful to consider everything....
Well, there seems to be a common theme in there for me - Detach from your H Toots!! Live your own life. Don't worry about what he's doing!!
Okay - I feel I was doing pretty well - but I backslid. Time to regroup. Good news is I start a new regular GAL activity this week - ladies friendship, fun and social group. And in two weeks is my beginners Ceroc workshop. Lots of GAL fun in store for me.... :-)
Ceroc!
Hope you are going to be really enjoying it Toots. I believe in music, dancing and connection.
going on a Ceroc weekend this weekend and am going to learn how to lead in a beginners class or two, this means that I can work with the beginners as there is always a shortage of leaders in the beginners classes.
Go get em Toots, enjoy your GAL.
V
Hi Sunshine,
It's somewhat very hard to face all these ups and downs. But as the others mention here, your H has made all crazy decisions and seem like he may be in some kind of MLC.
One thing is for sure, if his R with this OW was something more specific and a strong link, a year into this would be a little different. So if a year is just eventual meetings and she does not step out of her R, then your H may be feeling as an idiot.
And Toots, you know my opinion. I feel it's all logical and OK to go dark and not contact the WAH but I still feel that he may need to be reminded once in a while what he is loosing. I think he needs to see more of who you are now and know all the changes that you have been working on.
I don't mean to be straight forward to show him anything, but he needs to see it somehow and get himself even more confused about his bad choices. After a year, the resentments towards you are also fading, the bad feelings are becoming memories and there is a chance that he may be thinking about you more then before.
It's also very possible that he feels very ashamed of what he did to you. The guilt of hurting you may be eating his liver and he does not have a lot of courage to reach out for you.
I really believe that your H did not erase you completely from his mind, even if he tried to eliminate your physical memories from the house.
About that email, is there a chance that he just left it there so you could see it? Why he not careful about his private stuff?
And why is him choosing what he bags for you. Is there any possible way that you could go and take the stuff you want to take before he is doing the whole cleaning? This was your house and he needs to share this moment with you, he wants or not it is also part of your life.
If that happen, it would be some way to share sometime with him, maybe some talk about what happen.
I like that Toots will give up only when she thinks it is over, you go girl... no one will tell you how to live your life, only you can do it.
Lots of love honey,
XOXO
Pink
Thanks V and Pink
Well, I had a pretty nice day. Bookshop GAL in the morning - all very busy. Worked from home this afternoon and yoga GAL this evening.
Pink, thanks for your thoughts and comments. Interestingly, I feel H's resentment growing towards me ATM. He was previously more compassionate towards me. Now he seems more tetchy.
Your comments prompted me to drop him a little text this pm. I let him know I dropped by the house & thanked him for bringing my things back. He hasn't replied.
I get what you're saying. But he seems pretty raw ATM, and we're just about to embark on the whole financials thing, which may worsen things. I'm just trying to be steady and pleasant in any contact with him.
The advice from the vets has been to stick to business - but I hear what you're saying about reaching out etc. I just think it isn't the right time just now...
So glad you're back on the boards my friend x
T, just wanted to say I admire your strength through all this. I know you had a bit of a dip in mood but really overall - you are so strong! Way to go! Hope you enjoy your ceroc weekend, that sounds like fun!
x
Thanks Susana.
I'm trying to keep busy right now, and pay attention to my thoughts about the sitch. I'm trying to notice when I spend time thinking about things and take steps to improve that.
I worked from home this morning, just had lunch and I'm off to book club in a bit. This evening, I'm going along to this ladies social group for the first time - so we'll see how that goes. I feel a bit nervous about it actually!
Tomorrow - more work, and then out with a friend for the day on Saturday, then a day with Mum on Sunday. I feel I have a pretty busy and full life, doing many things I enjoy. So, I'm lucky in that sense. I just need to work on the habit of thinking about H more than is healthy for me. I guess recent events just made all that a bit worse...
Thanks for taking the time to post!
Hi. Toots keeping busy is always a good idea for keeping your mind trained. my L/C would always say to replace a sad thought with a good memory , not always about H but just a good memory. As usual you sound strong. Thanks for all the support , it means a lot. Take care. Rd
Having a pleasant enough day today. Nice chat at book group and in the book store. Off to a social event tonight.
H emailed today. He has done some reading on collaborative law and feels it is a good option for us. He has given me the details of his L now. I'll get back to him tomorrow I think, and confirm we should go ahead. This will start off the process of disclosure, and so on.
His L has suggested we aim for an initial meeting before Easter. So, I'm pleased in a way that he is amenable to this route. He also said he's confident we can come to an agreement. OTOH, it's all a bit horrible to be exchanging L details and so on.
The only thing is - given high costs - my L suggested not actually meeting, but working collaboratively - maybe via conference call? I'm not sure we want the L's travelling at £220/hr!
Anyway, I'm going to shelve it for now, go and meditate, then enjoy my social thing tonight. Tomorrow I'll deal with some of the practical stuff...
Hope you're all having a good day :-)
Well, had a very social day yesterday. Had a lovely chat with one of the book group members after our session. She and I have lots in common and she suggested a new GAL activity, which I'll look into. Then I popped into the bookstore and had a couple of chats there.
Last night I went to this ladies social/fundraising group. That was great! Their 'new year' is just starting and they passed round a list of social activities for people to vote on. Lots of nice stuff - theatre, walks, meals out, pot luck suppers, drumming, salsa lesson....
They were really welcoming - a nice group of 15 or so women - lively, intelligent, friendly. Seems like a great option for me. And the funny thing is - on arrival, I recognised someone too - an old school friend I hadn't seen for 30 years! So she and I had a nice talk too. This group meets up once every few weeks, so it's a new regular GAL plan for me.
Today, I'm WFH - but also have some practical things to deal with. Need to reply to H's email about legal stuff and drop documents into the solicitor etc...That's the not so nice stuff, but I just need to 'woman up' and get that done. Have a good day all! :-)
I just got an email from H - various things about legal arrangements all fine. But..
*He's trying to get his life back on track
*He needs to resolve what he must to move forward and be happy
*He doesn't want to live in two places any more
*He isnt good at resolving tough things and can let them build up
*He doesn't think it's right for us to formally S and resolve finances without Divorcing
*That would create a possible future problem - or at least perception of one
*He is as lost now as ever he was in respect of relationships
*There is no impending marriage but he just needs to know things are settled properly
I think this must be the time for me to respond and say I don't want to D - but won't stand in his way if this is what he wants. Do you guys agree?
Hi Toots. You need the vets to chime in now but my advice would be to let him know that D is not what you want I'm not sure how you do this but i feel it needs to be done You don't want to look back and regret anything. You have DBed like a champ but you have to do what works. Seems there are clear signs your H is unsure and maybe he doesn't consider an R with you is an option
Toots you are obviously a very strong person and I hope you get some sage advice from the vets.
Take care. Rd
I agree with RD, I think you need to state it now, as to how I'm not sure. Hopefully some vets will chime in with advice.
That would create a possible future problem - or at least perception of one
Do you know what he means by that?
So, H asked me for a divorce today and I need to respond (see paraphrased email above) - Any vets advice would be very welcome!
Important context is OW returned from abroad in Feb. Since then H has returned my stuff from our city flat, and removed my pics from our MH.
I found text for an email from him to her in Jan. Saying he loves her, wants them to be together and she needs to break it off with her OM. Their R is rocky!
In late Feb, he emailed me saying he had been 'stupid' - got caught up in something, lost sight of what's important. And has never been as happy since he was with me.
I haven't seen H since Sept. He and I have only spoken once since then. I haven't said ILY, or that I want to save our M since last autumn.
Here's my draft reply:
Dear H, I'm so sorry that you feel your life has run off course. I truly only wish happiness for us both. I understand that you want to simplify your life and don't want to work and live in different places.
What I need to say is that I love you, and I don't want us to divorce. I hope that our marriage can still be saved. And if you turn back to it, you'll find me ready and willing to work on anything that undermined our happiness and wellbeing.
Of course you are free to make your own choices. I fully respect your wishes, and if you decide to file for divorce, I won't stand in your way. But I won't agree to a divorce, and I won't file for divorce, because the ending of our marriage isn't what I want.
Love, Toots.
Toots,
Not sure if they have these in your jurisdiction, but what worked really well for me and the fetching Mrs. Starsky was to neither follow thru with our divorce, nor totally withdraw the action. Both of us seem to perform better with a bit of a "gun to our heads," and so we -- twice -- did a formal 3-month "stay" of the divorce action. It was sort of like a probation of sorts for us, and at first we even separated briefly and lived in two separate houses, but it was a great way for us to see if we could stave off divorce and work at the marriage while basically "dating" each other exclusively.
I'll be honest, I haven't really followed your sitch very closely at all, but your closing paragraph seems too strong and too pursuing to send to a guy who just two months ago was professing his love for his OW. His latest thoughts (in the bulleted post from you above) still seem pretty fogged out to me, and I'd treat VERY slowly if I were you.
If it were me (and it WAS me!) I would tell him something along the lines of "I don't want a divorce, and I've realized that I still love you, but there are honestly some things that would need to happen for me to feel safe and comfortable getting back together again. Not sure if you're even interested or not, but if you are, we can discuss. I didn't want the moment to pass without at least throwing it out there."
And some might say that even THAT is too much.
Your husband -- like a lot of wayward, walkaway and MLC men (and some women, too) on these forums -- still sounds like he he's very emotionally immature, and doesn't know WHAT he wants. He basically is WHINING at you ("I'm sooo unhappy, I don't know what I waaaaant") and not really saying anything definitive that would come anywhere CLOSE to a commitment.
In other words, he still sounds very BROKEN to me. I think it would be best if you two could live separated, agree to date each other exclusively (with him committing to NC with his OW, and be transparent with you!), for some period of time (3-6 mos?) to see how it goes.
Thoughts?
Starsky
Thanks Starsky. I agree he's still foggy. And I don't get a sense that he even wants 'us' to try again. Would it be odd to "throw that out there" and start talking about getting together, if he isn't even suggesting we do this?
Things with OW have never been great. She's been on/off/on with OM the whole time. I think H desperately wants that to be different - but it just isn't.
I definitely want to tell him I don't want us to D - but I guess it's how I phrase beyond that.
What about this? And Starsky, if you feel what you suggest may be too much, what would you downgrade this to?
Dear H, I'm so sorry that you feel your life has run off course. I truly only wish happiness for us both. I understand that you want to simplify your life and don't want to work and live in different places.
What I need to say is that I still love you, and I don't want us to divorce. I hope that our marriage can still be saved.
But there are honestly some things that would need to happen for me to feel safe, comfortable and consider getting back together again. I'm not sure if you're even interested or not, but if you are, we can discuss it. I didn't want the moment to pass without telling you this.
Of course you are free to make your own choices. I respect your wishes, and if you decide to file for divorce, I won't stand in your way.
Toots.
Hiya, Toots....
Saw this and thought to myself..."oh boy...there goes another confused WAS." Sorry to read that you've been on the receiving end of his email.
I just got an email from H - various things about legal arrangements all fine. But..
*He's trying to get his life back on track
*He needs to resolve what he must to move forward and be happy
*He doesn't want to live in two places any more
*He isnt good at resolving tough things and can let them build up
*He doesn't think it's right for us to formally S and resolve finances without Divorcing
*That would create a possible future problem - or at least perception of one
*He is as lost now as ever he was in respect of relationships
*There is no impending marriage but he just needs to know things are settled properly
Toots' Draft Response
Dear H, I'm so sorry that you feel your life has run off course. I truly only wish happiness for us both. I understand that you want to simplify your life and don't want to work and live in different places.
What I need to say is that I still love you, and I don't want us to divorce. I hope that our marriage can still be saved.
But there are honestly some things that would need to happen for me to feel safe, comfortable and consider getting back together again. I'm not sure if you're even interested or not, but if you are, we can discuss it. I didn't want the moment to pass without telling you this.
Of course you are free to make your own choices. I respect your wishes, and if you decide to file for divorce, I won't stand in your way.
Toots.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In my mind, it is fine to validate H...BUT use this opportunity to spell out what H stands to lose by continuing with OW. Not in a big "f-you" way, but with a deft touch.
I'd re-work your email a bit more.
Thanks so much Starsky and Wonka. It sounds as though we are pretty happy with the validation part of the email:
Dear H, I'm so sorry that you feel your life has run off course. I truly only wish happiness for us both. I understand that you want to simplify your life and don't want to work and live in different places.
I do want to tell H that I don't want us to D, and have re-worked the next part:
Of course you are free to make your own choices. I respect your wishes and if you file for divorce, I won't stand in your way. But divorce isn't what I want. I love you and I hope that we might still be able to save our marriage.
I'm then not sure about how I might spell out what H stands to lose:
You said that you've never been as happy since we were together. It is true that we've loved, cried, laughed and supported each other and SS. We've become a family, and we've grown to love each others' families and friends. I think these are the things that truly matter, and that we both stand to lose. I think in years to come, we will be glad to have fought for that.
What's your goal here, Toots? To use the boat analogy, are you trying to throw a rope out to his lifeboat in case he wants to pick it up (not realising it's been there all along)? If so, I like the validation paragraph and think the re-phrased paragraph 2 is also good. I would probably leave it there though.
"I hope that we might still be able to..." Does that sound a little needy? Could you give a concrete idea about what a next little step would look like? Saving the marriage might seem like a big stretch for your confused H. In reality what Starsky says is true - dating is probably the first next step (or just re-connecting). I fully get that it is hard to go from real NC to dating (I have the same dilemma as you know) but somehow we have to try to edge things in that direction.
What's your goal here, Toots?
I think she is trying to check his temperature?
And in that regards I think less said the better.
I agree with Starsky's take on him,
and tbh I am not sure he is really ready to work on the marriage.
He is still blaming the marriage and YOU for his
problems in typical wayward talk.
I understand that is not what Toots or anyone here really wants.
But the ball is still in his court.
Just don't be surprised if this pursuit is rejected.
I agree that he doesn't sound anything like ready to reconcile. I guess the most I can do at this point is not to initiate D and to tell him that D isn't what I want. That may or may not give him some food for thought.
Then it is all on him. If he wants to initiate D, he can. But he will do so in the knowledge that it isn't what I want. I guess that is all I want to achieve at this point.
Ok - so the below seems pretty consistent with your goal, I just hesitate a little with that last line in case it triggers the "it would be too much work" reflex in H:
Dear H, I'm so sorry that you feel your life has run off course. I truly only wish happiness for us both. I understand that you want to simplify your life and don't want to work and live in different places.
Of course you are free to make your own choices. I respect your wishes and if you file for divorce, I won't stand in your way. But divorce isn't what I want. I love you and I hope that we might still be able to save our marriage.
Thanks Gan. I agree on that last line. And I don't want to sound needy. I want to feel in five years time that I was happy to send this email. That it was sent from the bottom of my heart.
And I feel more.....warrior princess....I want to be strong, brave and true. Despite what he may feel and do at this point. I want to say that the love we had in our family is what truly matters to me and that I will stand up and be counted for it.
And he can do with that what he may.
I get it. I truly do. Your strength, balance, grace post the other day resonated so much.
What about this for a last line instead:
"I love you and I hope that we will one day find our way back to each other".
Same meaning but maybe a bit less pressure?
Gan, I think that might be perfect -
Dear H, I'm so sorry that you feel your life has run off course. I truly only wish happiness for us both. I understand that you want to simplify your life and don't want to work and live in different places.
Of course you are free to make your own choices. I respect your wishes and if you file for divorce, I won't stand in your way. But divorce isn't what I want. I love you and I hope that we may one day find our way back to each other.
Toots
I think this is an email I will be glad to have sent in 5 years time
It is important to me that H knows how I truly feel at this point
I hope it 'shows, not tells' what H would be losing - as Wonka said
I also think it shows strength, SFTU and KISS
In the UK, you can only file for a 'fault-free D' after 2 years S. H will now have to decide whether he will file for D on the grounds of 'unreasonable behaviour.' I'm not trying to control the outcome, just trying to be true to myself that this isn't what I want.
I think I'm happy now. Are we happy with this guys?
I for one love the line Gan wrote and I think it reads well although I'm not a vet.
I think the goal of being happy with it in five years is a good one.
Good luck Toots, you are so strong and I know you will handle any outcome.
Thanks Susana and Gan. I really appreciate your comments. This is the reply I have sent:
Dear H
I'm so sorry that you feel your life has run off course. Please know that I only wish happiness for us both, and for SS. I understand that you want to simplify your life and don't want to live and work in different places.
Of course you are free to make your own choices. I respect your wishes and if you file for divorce, I won't stand in your way. But divorce isn't what I want. I love you, and I hope that we may one day find our way back to each other.
Toots
I did have a couple of wobbles. Mainly asking myself if I'm being selfish sending this? He would much prefer I reply, agree to a divorce and move forwards. Me not doing that and telling him I love him, makes all of this harder for him.
I have sent this for me really. I feel that if he knows this and chooses to file for divorce, I can better move on.
I have no expectations - other that he may feel - ugh - or angry. I certainly don't feel we are close to a 'turning point' and I don't hope for that. But at least I have told him now how I truly feel, and I am glad of that.
Thanks so much for your help everyone. I really appreciate it.
T x
Hi Toots,
I think you've done the right thing. If you want your marriage to work then surely at some point there needs to be this kind of reaching out. DR may suggest you do this at a better point, but like it says, if you've followed DBing to a T and things aren't changing, don't engage in more of the same behaviour. At least your H knows how you feel now. I have my fingers crossed you get a positive reply.
Thanks so much Alpha. I hope you feel all better soon. I heard back from H already....
He said that I'm the biggest hero he knows
And that he doesn't feel he deserves the kindness and love he gets from me
He has asked if it is okay with me, for us not to move anything forwards right now
He needs a week to think...
Strength, balance, and grace, comrade, no matter what transpires.
We cross posted so I didn't see the above. Interesting!
(((Toots)))
I've just caught up with your thread and a lot has happened. fWIW I think you did the right thing with your email.
If your H doesn't see what he's losing in you or hes too proud to to take tge action he needs to then he really is a fool
Hiya Toots, that's an interesting reply...remain calm and strong. I know you will probably be on pins and needles all week. Keep yourself busy!
((()))
Hi toots
I'm not posting today no movement just low, I wanted to hop to just say (((((Toots))))) I really hope you're on the road to good things.
Take it easy matey
Hi. Toots Well that's interesting. Keep strong. No expectations and you can't be disappointed. Take care. Rd
Well, that's got to be seen as a positive reply hasn't it? H didn't say flat out, no etc, he wants to think about things. Fingers crossed your H realises what he would be losing. Keep strong Toots
Thanks guys. I truly had no expectations in sending the email. I felt I had nothing more to lose and I felt at peace with what I wrote.
It seems it may have given H some pause for thought though - a more positive response than I would have ever expected. But again I really do need to have no expectations, given all the other comments about ongoing fogginess and so on...I need to expect that our D may be underway any time soon.
Thanks for your support....xx
Positive development toots. Glad for you. In my opinion it's even harder to stay strong when these positive things happen so please stay strong!
Funny, that I feel a bit frightened at the slight glimmer of change in our sitch. Our M is hanging in the balance this week. But then I told myself - it was hanging in the balance anyways...
It has helped me to truly know that I will be okay either way. And I truly feel better for having told H I love him and D isn't my choice. He will do with that what he will.
The unhelpful thought I'm having is what if he's using this week to give OW ultimatums? That would make our marriage plan B. The other scary thing is that he is still sounding pretty foggy. And I do think extreme caution would be needed if we start to turn away from imminent D.
I guess for me, I don't want a D. So, if D proceedings don't start now, that would be a positive. That buys some more time. If so, it may just be a case of baby steps forwards. Whichever way, I'm glad that I have done what I've done. And that's the main thing. However this turns out...
Toots, I think it's completely normal and understandable you feel frightened. I think many people would in your sitch. You've been doing just fine without H, living your life and GALing away and not speaking and all the sudden he pops up. And now you've got a week of not knowing and waiting on him. Keep yourself busy this week, I know it's hard but try not to think too much or wonder what he is up to. You've done a great job, stay strong T! x
I'd like to have something insightful and helpful to say but Susana has it covered.
((((Toots))))
Well, had a very nice day with my lovely Mum. Took a big pile of laundry and got that done whilst I was there. Bought Mum some chocolates and a movie and we watched that this afternoon. All very gentle and nice.
Back at the flat now and just poured a little glass of wine. Edz, you'll be glad to know I have nice clean sheets tonight!
All quiet on the H front today. I'm trying to just relax about it and think - hey, we were on the brink of D a few days ago. And that may still happen and that's okay. I'd be pleasantly surprised if H comes back with something positive. As Starsky said - there is still fog there, and I really do need to proceed with caution.
I like Starsky's idea of 'pausing' any legal stuff for 3 months and 'seeing/dating' each other for that time period. Just to see where that goes. But I really have minimal expectations and best to stay that way I think....
Hi Toots, your dealing with it very well. You will be happy again. You will be loved again and you will be a fantastic partner for someone again, have no doubt, what's happening now will only make you stronger and you will see that one day.
Take care , Rd
In the UK, you can only file for a 'fault-free D' after 2 years S.
I think now based on your H answer, and the above fact, it is time to go dark, or very dim again.
let him think and since I dont believe the one week time he said it may now be months or years until you hear back from him again.
If the OW is really gone then he will go through OW withdrawal/depression so he will still be in a fog.
After that you may see him turn back towards you, but still be in crisis.
Keep living YOUR life!
Thanks RD and Cadet. Your replies both helped me in different ways.
Cadet, just to clarify - although you can only file for a 'fault-free D' after 2 years, the bar for unreasonable behaviour is pretty low, so H may still choose to file. Reasons used can include - she was moody - he didn't want to go out much - she complained a lot and so on. Not saying that I 'was' these things, but these are the kids of things people say.
I'm glad you said about going dark or dim. I too am worried that H is still foggy and will try to come back in a week with a 'yes' or 'no.' And what will we do then? Your advice lifts the pressure somewhat and I realise we are a long way from reconciliation - which strangely helps me. I can let go a bit more and just carry on living my life, which feels safer right now for me.
Quietish day today - just working from home and will go to the parents this evening. Bookstore GAL tomorrow though!
I'm glad you said about going dark or dim.
I too am worried that H is still foggy and will try to come back in a week with a 'yes' or 'no.' And what will we do then?
Your advice lifts the pressure somewhat and I realise we are a long way from reconciliation - which strangely helps me.
I can let go a bit more and just carry on living my life, which feels safer right now for me.
Exactly the point!
I'm betting he comes back in 6 1/2 days with a "maybe."
Thanks to you both. Starsky - I'll be interested to see if you're right. A definite maybe - excellent!
All of this does really highlight the need to stay detached, take it all with a pinch of salt and get on with my own life.
When things like this are happening, staying 'attached' to the sitch, to him and to a desired outcome is just self-torture!
Thanks for all the advice Guys - you truly are sanity savers...
Just a thought toots, but have you considered what you will do should your H not get back to you? I hope that's not the case but just in case.
Hi Alpha. I'll probably just go dark for a little bit, as Cadet suggested. I think of the two of us, H is more keen to get 'sorted' with the house and so on. So doubtless he'll be in touch sooner rather than later.
Toots
If it feels right to you then the email says that which you wanted say then irrespective it's right.
Remember
Just remember a 'maybe' is an options open, may need plan B choice for H. That is what I would do in his shoes.........
It will be alright in the end and if it is not alright then it is not the end and besides the fat lady has not sung yet. It is over when YOU say so. In the meanwhile can I encourage you to Ceroc........
V
Thanks V. Toots doesn't plan on being anyone's Plan B - that's for sure!
Ceroc is next weekend for me....:-)
Toots doesn't plan on being anyone's Plan B - that's for sure!
PERFECT!
You need to be the #1 choice or forget it!
Dear Toots,
Got myself updated on your sitch and I think it's so great all what is happening. Of course it's frightening, another turmoil to go through you want or not.
I have my fingers crossed for a chance that your H will at least start talking.
I am also amazed with your strength, every word I read feels like you are calm and in control of all your emotions. You are a model for me, being all over the place lately.
I hope your H can feel and see what we know, that you are a great woman, strong and smart. Keep going Toots, you are doing great and with patience you will be always in a better place.
I also agree that you may get a maybe or even no word for awhile, your H is still with a lot of doubts. He knows you got stronger and kept yourself out of his way. During this time, life did not get better, so he may think that his problems weren't exactly you, but maybe himself.
I would guess it takes time to figure that we are the one with the problem and it problem takes a lot of more time and courage to face this problems and be humble enough to admit you are wrong, so your H may have his brain boiling asking himself what direction to take.
You are a wise woman, give him time to digest his own crisis.
Keep strong Toots, you have a long way ahead of you.
Love,
Pink
Thanks Cadet and Pink
Yes I feel pretty calm actually. I think it helped me to know that this may not be crunch time, and that the outcome of recent stuff may well be 'maybe.' No problem. I think I'll find it more difficult if we do go down the D route right now though.
Whilst H wants to rid himself of these things (me, the house etc.) that are holding him back from 'getting his life on track,' I hope we can just formally S for now. So, if that's what he comes back with and we don't commence D, I'll be pretty pleased with that.
My concern is that I don't sense any great change in his attitude. Things certainly don't seem to be panning out with OW. The picture has very much been him chasing and asking her to break things off with her chap (doing all the wrong stuff - if only he knew!) But she has never fully broken things off. I'm not sure at what point - if ever - H will realise that she doesn't 'do' healthy R's right now...
I worry that he may always see her as the lost love of his life....ugh...
Anyway, whilst he's relatively nice to me, he's still flailing about, feeling he has to 'sort his life out.' And he seems on a pretty short fuse. Doesn't take much for him to get tetchy. Not sure that there's much introspective work going on there. And I very much get that sense - as Starsky said - I'm sooooooo unhappy, and I don't know what to doooo. But there are one or two little chinks of light at times too..so who knows..Main thing is I'm doing reasonably okay regardless.
Anyway, working from home for me today. Will get out into town or something at lunch time. Then I have yoga GAL tonight. Have a good day all!
Hi Toots,
Good attitude from your part. My L said that my H is not doing his stuff right now is because his mind is totally devoted to think on his dream life.
The L said that most of the time he sees one spouse doing all what they can do for the M or for the D and the other spouse is in some cloud dreaming of a life they think they are about to built. The new is so attractive that make them escape from reality.
My L even advise me to take advantage of this stage and get him on my side instead of against me.
Your H may had that dream life of something that is not becoming reality for him. Besides being in dream mode, now he needs to deal with the fact that he is feeling sorry for himself. That he is not happy, that he is suffering and blah,blah, blah. The poor me guy is in action now.
However, he is also feeling his life all over the place, the guilt feeling is there and he is trying to swipe it under the rug for now. Why do they do this?
I know a lady that her H left her with 5 kids and got himself a much younger girl. For him, his W was all his problems. After 2 years, she is strong and got her life back together. He is still a mess, very unhappy, on his third or fourth girlfriend. He does not look good and did try to get back together, only she does not want him anymore.
I wish things get better and your H figure that he can turn around and be happy again.
You are doing great Toots. I wish you all the peace in the world, so you can keep doing what you are doing and be strong.
Have a good Yoga class beautiful, you deserve the best.
Love,
Pink
Sounding good toots,
To me at least sounds like the PMA is holding up there and you're able to compartmentalise your h's searching without it impacting you, thats difficult to do at times (as youve seen recently in my threads!) but you seem to be managing it well. Good for you!
Take it easy toots. Hopefully you have the sunny weather we do, more hopefully not the -4c temperature!
Yes he seems to like cheese less tunnels.
He will check them all out to try to find happiness.
Not much you can do while he does that except worry about Toots.
Thanks for posting guys. Yes Cadet, he does seem to like those tunnels. Where is that elusive cheese?
Edz, you mentioning compartmentalising resonated with me. I think our WAS's, particlarly wayward ones, are pretty good at compartmentalising. They convince themselves that having an A doesn't impact the M too much. They are a 'lover' with their AP, and great H and father with their families at the same time.
But compartmentalising can be useful for us LBS' too. It helps if we can see that our lives have different 'compartments' and are not all about our WAS's. I think it helps if we can put our WAS's in a compartment sometimes and get them out and have a look sometimes - but not all of the time. Other times, we open other boxes. New things at work, time with our kids, new time alone, new hobbies, new friends, helping others and so on. So whilst WAS' compartmentalise to the detriment of our M's, we can do the same to the benefit of ourselves.
Just logged off from work, and going to have a walk in the lovely spring sunshine :-)
Indeed toots, exercise time for me!
Where is that elusive cheese?
I dont think it is in the tunnels.
That is what they have to figure out, that they ran away from the cheese when it was right next to them.
Some figure it out and some do not.
Cheeeeeeese..............
Right here? Where is my cheese?
Any cheese?
I am never going in a cheeseless tunnel. I like cheeeeeeese too much.
Now where are those biscuits?
Hmmmm.......
Sorry for the innuendo!
V
Maybe this is what I need to shout to H.
IAMTHECHEESE!!!
Now that probably would end our marriage for good..
Hi Toots. As usual your PMA is to be admired. From my perspective you have done everything to save your M You DBed like a champ and stepped up with your feelings once you felt comfortable to do so.
Your H has choices to make , if he chooses the tunnels then he will have to see if Toots is still at the enterance once he realises the cheese was beside her me to start with.
Keep up the PMA toots Take care. Rd
Keep it up Toot-sy. Your PMA has always inspired me. Your husband is a fool if that strong demeanor of yours doesn't get his attention. Keep doing your thing with that head held high. He'll gravitate back towards it.
Lots of cheeeeese where I am, V (Amsterdam) I'll think if you every turn.
Hi Toots,
How can you deal with this so well? I feel like I may need an administrator for my compartments. It's all messed up now.
You are amazing and the words you have been writing translate so much confidence and strong character. Congrats! You got all this thing of detachment and "you" first.
I admire you and will take your example to get my life back on track. Hope your H will give himself a chance to meet this great Toots we all know.
Love
Pink