Complex #5 My threads are still filling faster than my sitch is moving.
And I am moving slower with becoming the best Complex ever than my W moving forward with S and D.
The only real changes since my last thread:
-
Meds are still an issue but I feel almost like the "normal Complex" again
- My
parents dropped the bomb on W's family (aunt). W responded angry and also told her dad and mom in person the day after.
Her mom wants to save our marriage so bad(funnily she is the one that did the EXACT same thing to W's dad, found another man, wanted out of M and left, boom - I never knew exactly how her mom left her dad but W's aunt told me this, so in the family history seems to repeat again and the whole family is shocked like hell). I told her mom it is best to leave W alone and not pressure her right now. Aunt seems to be very neutral but very sad and shocked. Everyone in the family seems to think in very high terms of me, but they know they cannot control W.
- Me and W are
getting along a little better. Mainly because I stopped being "crazy" around her and better detached. I just let her life and don't ask questions or snoop or do such things anymore. This seems to make W feel a little more comfortable around me.
- I went to a
lawyer/mediator and know my rights now. It is as easy as buying an iPhone to get D/mediated
- I still
GAL. Gym 3-4 times a week. Found a volunteer opportunity, helping abandoned children is a care center. I started driving for Uber on the weekends to make a few extra hundred dollars per month. I started taking over my company's old secretary job to get in some extra hours (she quit a couple weeks ago) to also make a few hundred extra dollars a month. To be able to support myself fully all alone it is getting close.
- That leads to the next point of a true
realization that I was NOT supportive enough in our marriage and did NOT work hard enough to support my W and my future with her. I was too much of a relaxed man, that thought everything will figure itself out, I relied on my W and I settled. I DID make efforts to find a job and I am only in the job market for 1 year here now and no one can expect any wonders coming to a new country and making an instant career from scratch, but I did not do ENOUGH. That's the point. I tried to compensate by being a perfect houseman, doing everything for my W and around the house but my social status was much lower than hers. The imbalance in our R did make me look very unattractive over time. Not to mention OM in this occasion.
And W is an independent career driven women. She wants things in her life. She "tried" to settle with me, but it is not her. She wants more in her life and I cannot blame her for that. I was not supportive enough of her efforts either.
Now am becoming the man I always wanted to be. I will be an independent man that understands and values his wife and supports her no matter what. If she doesn't want to join this I will at least become the best me, and one day I can maybe make someone else very happy.
-
tonight W wants to talk. I don't know about what. Most likely about our living situation and that the S will soon become real. We still live together. I don't want to make big announcements or say much. I rather listen and validate. If I feel it can come across very genuine I might add that I am thankful for her still supporting me and that I take full responsibility for what I have done/not have done (work hard enough to secure us a future and let her do most of the work). But not sure if that is necessary at this point or if she will really dig it. I am scared of this conversation because I am not very good at this. I need to hold myself back with talking at all, listen, validate. Period. I just hope she doesn't ask me too many direct questions regarding how I think we should figure out the living situation, etc.
Thanks for everyone who is following me and helping me!
W talked to me. She didn't have much to say. Just wanted to check in on me and us. She wants to move forward with our separation as expected.
When the greencard is done she wants to soon physically separate, do separate bank accounts and legally separate.
Sounds like she is still in a rush moving things forward, whatever the reason is. I resisted asking about OM, guess this is non of my business or is it legitimate to ask why there is such a rush.
I held myself very well in the conversation. It was the most serious conversation we had in a long time, I listened very well and validated. But she seems very clear minded and serious about her plans. She "apologized" for rushing into M with me and hurting me now.
This seems so seriously over. For one reason, our marriage was not built on solid ground and was short. Sry for the negativity. The german realist is coming through.
Oh well, tomorrow is another day! A good one, right? Yes!
After reading another thread I wonder if I should finally fkn man up!!? I should just let her go, give her what she wants, take what I need too and get the hell out of here. If I stick around like this, she'll never gain respect for me.
She wants a legal separation now, why don't I just give it to her ????? At this point it doesn't make sense fighting it, does it? I wonder why LS now, not straight D. Out of good intentions to help me so I can keep certain benefits like tax and health insurance? Or isn't she ready for D yet? That could be bc of many reasons, most likely NOT bc she's not sure about D ..but to get out of M "smoother" without upsetting her family too much; making an easier transition.
Is this going to make it even harder for me bc there is still this "rest" that I can hold on to bc its not a D?!? Or is it good bc it's buying time? Although it's pretty much the same than D.
Did anyone in here have to deal with LS? What's W's logic here? Should I just give her what she wants and move on like a man?
Hi Complex
To save me looking back, have you had some legal advice already? I think your priority needs to be the best one from a legal and emotional perspective. A legal separation doesn't sound unreasonable to me. But what are the legal implications and what does your L say?
From your post below, it sounds as though you are flailing around emotionally (not a criticism, I'm doing some of that myself) but it's time to put the financial, legal and practical hat on, and move forwards in a self-protective way that stays true to your emotional needs too.
I did go to a mediator who just told me its an easy case, my right is all 50/50 and I can get granted some spousal support. That's all I know.
I might go again to get some more detail.
I feel absolutely horrified and terrible this morning. Like back to square one. These talks with W do me no good. Even tho it was a very good one from DB perspective.
Interesting how W even validated herself with the reaction of her family. She said they are shocked but told her "if that is what she really wants". From my knowledge they are all absolutely devastated that she's doing the exact same thing than her mother and can't understand why she's dumping her M so fast.
I'm still confused why she now wants to go the legal separation path instead of D.
Huge throwback, I need to focus on myself. My anger and pessimism is taking over again.
Hi Complex
Legal S doesn't sound like a bad option? That's what I'm hoping me and H will do - except over there, it isn't a legal process - although the S agreement carries significant 'weight' with the courts in a any future D process.
Sorry it's a tough day - you'll get back on an even keel - but that just takes a little while after stressful things like 'talks' happen.
Take care (())
Thanks Tootsie.
It's the same process here and weighs into D later of if it goes there.
So you think it's a good thing? I guess it's much better than D. It's not final, but a good way to S, like a trial D.
Today I met with W's father for lunch. His reaction was a little unexpected. He basically met me to gather some information I think and to tell me he's sorry for me etc. I was very calm and didn't talk bad about W or whatsoever. I didn't offer any details and kept the information very general. I think the talk went very well. He is an incredibly genuine, smart and very reasonable man. I let him talk most of the time. He actually told me if he was me (even as W's dad), he'd run away and start fresh. He found out about OM and he is humongously disappointed by his daughter. You could see it in his eyes, his heart was broken into pieces. It was even painful to see. He said "good luck W to find a better man than you are". We almost both started crying. That was very kind of him. Of course he understands we can't control her and all that and he advised me not to kill myself over her and find a point where it gets unhealthy for me where I give up on her.
Not sure how he will deal with W now. So far they didn't have contact after she told him. He is aware that W looks pretty bad in all this now and that she is under a lot of pressure. I don't think he knows what to do, he has to let this sink some more I'm sure.
I feel ok, happy with how the conversation went, it was very sad tho
I'll stay out of this for sure..but W will have to deal with this now..and it probably won't be easy...
After reading another thread I wonder if I should finally fkn man up!!? I should just let her go, give her what she wants, take what I need too and get the hell out of here. If I stick around like this, she'll never gain respect for me.
She wants a legal separation now, why don't I just give it to her ????? At this point it doesn't make sense fighting it, does it? I wonder why LS now, not straight D. Out of good intentions to help me so I can keep certain benefits like tax and health insurance? Or isn't she ready for D yet? That could be bc of many reasons, most likely NOT bc she's not sure about D ..but to get out of M "smoother" without upsetting her family too much; making an easier transition.
Is this going to make it even harder for me bc there is still this "rest" that I can hold on to bc its not a D?!? Or is it good bc it's buying time? Although it's pretty much the same than D.
Did anyone in here have to deal with LS? What's W's logic here? Should I just give her what she wants and move on like a man?
Complex
Please Stop overthinking. I filed for a sep for 3 reasons:
I was not ready to divorce my h;
But I needed to protect our assets so he wouldn't mortgage "invest" our house for his heroes in Alaska,
and
b/c the kids & I needed health insurance then...
So what if your wife is trying to be kind to you? So what if she's trying to make it easier
IF IT DOES HELP YOU, then let it!
This is actually all up to you. IF YOU want to see it as a "delay" of your growth, then it will be and so you should not delay things
but since it probably would benefit YOU to have a LS and it MIGHT mean she's not quite ready to file for a Div
why are you making this more complicated? You want to force her to declare something? I would not push her on the "whys" of it.
To ME, I would see the LS as a gift for you. But if you cannot handle it,
then so be it.
If you feel that you MUST be divorced before you can do anything productive with your life
do what you must.
Thanks for your opinion 25yr. I think a LS would be good. It is a legal process and it'll just feel like D. But it won't be. D is final.
I do not want her to declare anything. I just think I shouldn't fight it.
She is trying to help me out with everything. She told me she cares for me and doesn't want to screw me over.
Fair enough I guess. Gives me some time, but I took a good amount of action to support myself already.
Today I'm thinking about her dad all day long. He was so heartbroken today. In a weird way it made me feel better, maybe bc it was a validation for me that I'm not so bad after all and that this is not really my fault
Wife gone over the weekend skiing with her friend (I know it's not OM, I actually have high doubts they are talkinv very much, they def still don't meet outside of work).
I'll have coworkers over tonight for a wine tasting! Funnnn
Working a lot at the office and working out a lot too. Stupid Prozac tho still feels like a bit of a rollercoaster ride. In the morning it feels like the last dose "wore off" am I feel horrible. Once I eat breakfast pop the next pill and leave the house I feel good^^
I'm still thinking about her dad. Is this a normal reaction of family that they are humongously devastated and disappointed due to their high moral values? Did anyone experience this and how turned this out later in the sitch? In the end they all love her again I suppose, if they had a good relationship in the first place.
Lot of family scenarios how it can develop but I guess not really my concern, although it feels very good for my ego that I have their support and love.
It's also interesting how I actually learned how to love my W in this sitch. It's weird. Detavhing and loving more at the same time, is that possible?
Everyone have a nice weekend!
Wife gone over the weekend skiing with her friend (I know it's not OM, I actually have high doubts they are talkinv very much, they def still don't meet outside of work).
I look forward to when your posts (and thoughts) are NOT about HER or who SHE is with or how SHE feels, b/c that will be a sign of progress in detaching, which you must do.
I'll have coworkers over tonight for a wine tasting! Funnnn
^^^Good idea!
Working a lot at the office and working out a lot too. Stupid Prozac tho still feels like a bit of a rollercoaster ride. In the morning it feels like the last dose "wore off" am I feel horrible. Once I eat breakfast pop the next pill and leave the house I feel good^^
It sounds as if time will help. If not, let the doc know. I took Paxil when my dad died and I wasn't "snapping out" of my grief. I swear I noticed a difference within a few days. Less circular "what if??" went on in my head.
Then 2 weeks after I started, I found myself tapping the steering wheel on the way to work, to a song on the radio. That's when I realized, "wow, I am getting better"
I'm still thinking about her dad. Is this a normal reaction of family that they are humongously devastated and disappointed due to their high moral values?
Is it "normal? I think it's mind reading AND expectations and hope on YOUR Part, that at some point it will effect your w. (Which is you wanting to manage the outcome).
That's my take on it. Assuming it's ALL about his "high moral values" also gets to make you feel more victimized and demonizes her. Maybe her dad loves you and fears losing you...
As far as you know, your wife has not had a PA (yes, there are those who doubt this, but for now, let's just say that she has admitted to feelings for OM)
and what you KNOW is that she wants out of the m b/c SHE feels you let her down in several ways.
(Once upon a time, you admitted this as well).
Til you accept that this is ^^ HER Perception, which is HER reality, you'll keep going in circles. How does that help you move forward?
Did anyone experience this and how turned this out later in the sitch?
Here, ^^ You are attaching HOPES/EXPECTATIONS to your perception of her father's emotions and your belief that the reasons are his "high moral values"?
Can you see how you having expectations has NOT helped you move at all?
It keeps you stuck.
In the end they all love her again I suppose, if they had a good relationship in the first place.
Lot of family scenarios how it can develop but I guess not really my concern, although it feels very good for my ego that I have their support and love.
Then just leave it at ^^ that. They care for you. No matter what, that's a good thing.
It's also interesting how I actually learned how to love my W in this sitch. It's weird. Detavhing and loving more at the same time, is that possible?
Everyone have a nice weekend!
You are right. In my head it's just not over before it's over. On one hand I want a clean cut so I can move forward faster. But the other hand outweighs significantly that I'm alright the way things are right now. I've been through enough and I've grown a lot already and I will keep growing and it doesn't get to me as much as it used to anymore.
Yes my mind is still circling, but not as much anymore. Right now I'm also feeling for all the people who's hearts got broken too additional to mine and I'll pray for them. During the last few weeks of soul searching I weirdly feel more committed to my marriage than ever. I see a scenario of reconciliation, I'm not convinced if my mind is not just making stuff up. But I learned a lot about love. I wasn't a good enough husband, I wasn't mature enough. But saying this I also notice that I am still way too hard on myself, bc I am a great person, I have a huge heart, I'm honest, authentic..there's not much at all not to be liked about me. If I continue to grow I'll be a great man to someone some day. SOMEONE and myself! But it's still a journey. One about myself first. I need to find my own happiness again. Because I feel like I lost it..and that it's still a long search. But I'm convinced I can find it again. I can't be the icing on someone else's cake if I don't have a cake (cake = happiness) myself. And W doesn't have a cake right now either where I could put my icing on (lol this sounded nasty).
Baking is not an art tho. It's a science! You just need the right ingredients and then you need to mix them with the right proportions. My oven is pre heated and I'm still gathering some of the ingredients.
Ok I'm getting a little sidetracked here. I'll eventually be fine, is what I was gonna say.
Today I'm going to the Spa with my boss and workers, a company treat for good performance in February. This is going to be fun. Then I'll work all night.
It's actually nice to have the condo myself. Complex home alone
After a very relaxing weekend it's going to be a very busy week at work.
The meds don't make me feel crazy again but I feel just like before I started them.
My mind is STILL circling, although I'm doing a lot of GAL activities.
But I just have to accept that until I'm decently healed it's still gonna take a year or two. Right now I'm just mad at W, for what she has done. And I found my own boundaries, what my values, morals are, what I can accept and what I can't and what I want in my life and what kind of people.
And I'm starting to get more proud of myself for what I've done the past couple years.
W's dad invited me to lunch again. "I have some more thoughts to share" he said. I agreed and we meet on Wednesday.
Any suggestion what I can actively do to reduce my "anger" towards W and get my mind off things? Are there any tecniques like the one I posted in Susanas thread "bad worry, good worry, catch it and distract them"?
Specific question regarding communication with W.
She asked me this morning how my wine tasting was. All I answered was it was great. And I asked back how the ski trip was. She copied my short response and just said it was good. That was the whole conversation.
My mentor said why don't you just be yourself when she asks you sth. Tell her sth about the night, be enjoyable but don't overdo it or make it too long but why don't you tell her enthusiastically about it?
If you are short and distant she will do the same to you. She's copying your behaviour.
Whats your thought on this? To me it makes sense.
Specific question regarding communication with W.
She asked me this morning how my wine tasting was. All I answered was it was great. And I asked back how the ski trip was. She copied my short response and just said it was good. That was the whole conversation.
My mentor said why don't you just be yourself when she asks you sth. Tell her sth about the night, be enjoyable but don't overdo it or make it too long but why don't you tell her enthusiastically about it?
If you are short and distant she will do the same to you. She's copying your behaviour.
Whats your thought on this? To me it makes sense.
A lot of us kept it short because a WAS lies and gaslights a lot. So it can be stressful to truly communicate with them.
If it is a db coach I would seriously consider the advise because they are familiar with these situations.
If you're dialing it back JUST to try to respond in some certain way to her -- and it's not authentic to you -- then I agree with your mentor. As 25 pointed out to you above, your W is way too much in your head, so yeah I'd just be yourself (so long as you con't cross over into "pursuing."
I might also advise you to be a little more outgoing if these are the ONLY opportunities your W has of seeing you interact, whereas if there are times during the week and month that she is able to observe you, in person, interacting with other people (especially other women), I think you could be shorter with her ("treat her like a neighbor") and she'd still be able to see the witty, charming, confident Complex in his interactions with, say, the moms at the soccer fields and the like (just using that as an example, for others following along).
Make sense?
Starsky
It does make sense. Especially knowing that W is asking me to be nothing else than myself since BD. And as much as I want the M to happen, I have to be myself or I won't be happy in it either. Who wants someone who's changing just for you. We want a complete person, a complete and authentic character to love us, not someone who would do literally everything for us. That's boring.
I gotta be the outgoing myself that I used to be, without pursuing.
And yes my W is in my head too much. I started to accept it in a certain way. I am who I am. I work hard on myself. I'm definitely moving forward in huge steps in my life on the hunt to find my personal happiness back. I think I'm doing fine so far. I'm not letting myself down anymore. Things I should've done a long time ago. But now is now and I can only do my best from here on. I matured a lot.
And it's fine to interact with W as long as I'm authentic, string and calm and not trying to pursue. If I wouldn't get so nervous around her at times. But after many weeks into this now I know that NC and "grumpy, short" interaction doesn't work, but friendly conversations do. Just gotta be cautios, that's all.
So her father invited me for lunch again to share some insight with me. He sees it this way: W's biological clock is ticking, she wants to go back to school (a I mentioned before) and have a baby at one point and she's worried she can't have this kind of life with me bc I cannot support her properly.
I aaked him for his advice as a respect person but he doesn't have much of a clue either. We just chatted some about this and that and business and I reassured that I'm willing to work through this and I haven't given up yet and that I believe in us as a couple and that I have a clear picture where I want to be. And that I thank him for supporting our marriage.
He told me there's no doubt I would be a wonderful husband and father.
When he left he said in a very serious tone, I'll have to have a talk with my daughter again, find out what's going on.
Seems like he knows that I'm taking the high road, he supports the M but he also will be fairly neutral, bc he knows more than exactly that no one can control or change W's feelings.
My IC today was good too. She told me I'm making progress. She is observing my thought processes every time and I'm much better. We talked about things why I am who I am, family history and all that. But her structure gets a little clearer now and I can actually see progress on myself. Not sure if the meds kicked in, I just feel more normal again. In general more positive about myself.
And I went to a marketing workshop/networking event. That was great experience too. Learned a lot, met a lot of interesting people. On Tuesday I'll go to my first real professional networking event, kind of a challenge for me.
All in all I'm busier than ever and feel a little better. I am finally acknowledging that I do a lot for myself and I'm less hard on myself.
This reflected also in communication with W. Tonight she told me a lot about her ski trip and I shared some of my weekend with her. It's a baby step, but better than this ice cold atmosphere that was around the house for a while. The distance remains tho, which is ok. Can't ask for wonders.
I just feel more confident, it really helps me to just be myself. And my thoughts are clearer. I know what I want in my life, which still includes W, and I am confident, but with NO expectations. I'm drawing a picture how life would be without her. But I think it was Descartes who once said "If we think we can't do something, we can't".
Not too bad of a day.
Complex, the more I follow your sitch and learn about these interactions, the more I'm convinced that your challenge is more of a "career path" one than a "marriage/infidelity' one.
I think if your wife were more convinced of your likelihood for success and stability, she'd be back with you by now. HOWEVER, you need to decide if you want to be married to someone who -- when she doesn't feel secure financially -- not only cuts and runs, but runs to another MAN.
Starsky
Complex, the more I follow your sitch and learn about these interactions, the more I'm convinced that your challenge is more of a "career path" one than a "marriage/infidelity' one.
I think if your wife were more convinced of your likelihood for success and stability, she'd be back with you by now. HOWEVER, you need to decide if you want to be married to someone who -- when she doesn't feel secure financially -- not only cuts and runs, but runs to another MAN.
Starsky
Yes....and yes! Good observation...I figured this out a couple weeks ago. That it took me that long is pretty crazy. I def needed to mature to see the bigger picture.
Right now I actually am so convinced that I can have a great relationship with her----from my side. Meeting her needs and understanding her and be myself and pursue my dreams and work hard for our family. It's a very legit question if I want a person who doesn't really match my own values about committment. But I believe in her being a good person.
It's simple: I continue. I can only do my best. That's all I have. If she follows at some point under my terms...good, no one knows. If she's the fool and leaves for good I'll eventually be fine and my next R will be awesome too.
One thing is for sure..I wouldn't be here today where I am without any of this happening, so I have to be thankful!
Hi Complex - sounds like you're doing pretty well my friend? I'm sorry if I missed this, but have you decided on some goals for your career at this point? It sounds as though it's an important factor in your sitch - and that you want to be able to better 'provide' for your W and (hopefully) future family. How do you plan to work towards that point?
I am going to finish school. It's going to take time bc I can only do it part time.
But I won't stop until I have a degree. Then I'll become a teacher of some sort, or who knows in which direction it's going to take me.
Right now I basically doubled my work hours and also my income. I work as office help for my boss now, 15 additional hours during the week. If I travel for work on the weekend (it's like every other weekend) that's another 30++/h a weekend, means 15 a week. School per week is a good 12h+h/week with classes and preparation. If I don't travel on the weekemd I do driving approx 10-12h on a weekend. So let's say another 5/week. Sums up to pretty much 50h work week.
That'll keep me busy. Plus the business will hopefully be growing.
I'm having quite fun being busy, but it's exhausting, I'm not used to it. Plus all the mental stuff that's still going on.
I don't know if I should define my goals more...they seem kind of open still
Hey Complex - just had an idea. It sounds like you already have quite a few jobs and are very busy...but I was wondering if you'd ever considered tutoring German? I ask because you can get quite a good hourly rate, so was thinking this might help your cause...
I know here private lessons with native speakers will usually cost around £20-25 per hour!
There are probably some local high school kids studying German whose parents would be willing to invest in tutoring...
I think you need to really pin down what career you want. Then start looking for work in that field part time/entry level.
You want to teach? Then start substitute teaching, apply as an aide, volunteer with the German club.
Volunteering is always a good idea.
Thanks guys for the helpful ideas. The Gernan club is a good idea too.
I thought about tutoring german already it's a good idea.. Not sure if I can fit much more in my schedule. For volunteering I found a place that takes care of abandoned children from 3-18 or so, I could help them with their homework and maybe I can commit to 3-4h a week.
Both good for a teaching career.chances are tho that the business will be getting better and I already have a decent amount if responsibility there. It has decent potential.
Thanks guys.
I somehow feel a little funky today and also very determined that I want to save my M. I don't think I was able to a few weeks/months ago. But I just feel like I got what it takes now to do the rights things. For myself and DB.
I don't know if I was ever fully convinced until now, bc I knew deep down that it's not going to be right for either one of us if we don't complete our journey. Maybe it's just dream wishing, but I'm so much more confident and know that I'll be fine no matter what. I miss my W tho. I have to be very careful I keep my detachment and hope in balance and not get overly confident.
Don't think in terms of saving your M - not much you can do there.
Think in terms of doing what is right for you, and treating people in a way that is in keeping with your values. That, and the fact that you are now a more active and confident participant in your daily life are your best shot.
I'm trying. "Not much" doesn't mean nothing tho.
W mentioned she wants to proceed with legal separation after I get my greencard. Aren't these usually ending up in D, and are just used for a step towards D for the spouse who wants out?
Oh well I seriously know I should focus on myself but today I don't feel well at all. Having a throwback, tired and super depressed. I know it's the stupid meds that are still not balanced out in my system. Hope it'll be better tomorrow.
My point is this -- if she wants legal separation, you really can't stop her. You can tell her it's not what you want, but that's about it. If you fight her or try to convince her with words, you will only assure her that it is the right thing to do.
You cannot talk someone into wanting to stay together with you.
On the other hand, if you proceed in getting your green card, completing school, holding a job, and are generally happy and fun to be with, one of two things may happen:
- she may get interested again and decide to come around, or
- you may find that she isn't worth waiting for
And today, nobody, not you, not her, nor anyone on this board can tell you what will happen, or even which option is the better option.
So your choice is to resist and lament that which you cannot control, or to choke down the sh!t sandwich you got for dinner, and then move on to find a better looking dessert table.
In the last few weeks you seem to have broken your total dependency on her, and that is a very, very good start. You're doing all the right things, Complex, now you just have to feel it.
My point is this -- if she wants legal separation, you really can't stop her. You can tell her it's not what you want, but that's about it. If you fight her or try to convince her with words, you will only assure her that it is the right thing to do.
You cannot talk someone into wanting to stay together with you.
On the other hand, if you proceed in getting your green card, completing school, holding a job, and are generally happy and fun to be with, one of two things may happen:
- she may get interested again and decide to come around, or
- you may find that she isn't worth waiting for
And today, nobody, not you, not her, nor anyone on this board can tell you what will happen, or even which option is the better option.
So your choice is to resist and lament that which you cannot control, or to choke down the sh!t sandwich you got for dinner, and then move on to find a better looking dessert table.
In the last few weeks you seem to have broken your total dependency on her, and that is a very, very good start. You're doing all the right things, Complex, now you just have to feel it.
That was a good post Zew!
I do all the right things and it took me a while to start feeling them too. Once I thought I really do feel them I started believing sth like "now that I got what it takes, I can do this and can take the next steps". I kind of started believing that I have to take action saving my marriage actively. Which probably is stupid bc I should continue what I do and not change plans just because I feel confident again.
The 'saving my marriage actively' is a funny thing. Most of us here want to save our M's and are very active in doing that. However, it's the counter intuitiveness of the process that gets to you. Much of my 'active saving' has been doing LRT and not initiating contact with H - whilst building up my own life here etc..
I think the thing is - the active saving won't actually be seen as such by the WAS - but may well be working just below the surface. Or it may not work at all - but hopefully we'll emerge wiser and happier...
Very true. We are all active like crazy. But it's a) for ourselves and b) to subconciously change our WAS mind. I wouldn't say its tricking them, it's more like getting them to see the person again that they actually married and of course we gotta become that person again too.
I feel the reward of DBing is absolutely awesome on a personal level and if it works it's going to be extremely rewarding for the M too.
That's why I do this. Bc of the reward for myself and the people I love.
The feeling that came up with my confidence though is that I should do MORE. Which can completely go wrong bc you think you got it this time, but your spouse doesn't see anything differently. That's why we have to continue to just DB and nothing else, do your thing to a point where we are certain that WAS starts having second thoughts. If you are a good observer you might be able to pick this up, then act cautiously bc WAS will get second thoughts on the second thoughts and pull back.
But that is my goal. To get to the point where I see W starting to have thought process. Then it's meaning business
I'm just afraid of physical separation. That'll make things harder. I'm blessed right now.
Hey Complex, sounds like you're getting to a good place.
Continue to work on yourself, but careful not to confuse doing more/working actively on your M, with re-focusing your attention on your W or building up expectations. Keep working on you!
Yap. That's danger #1: expectations.
I'm curious about starting conversations. I don't want to seem pursuing, but it actually works to engage her sometimes if the timing is right. Haven't done it much but it breaks the ice once in a while. W seems to really mirror my behaviour.
What sort of conversation? I think if it's light and casual, e.g. asking about her day, that's fine.
Ya just daily stuff. Nothing serious.
Sometimes when she feels good she "unloads" work stories or other stuff on me and gets really talkative...and then seems to pull back. Yesterday she showed me baby pictures of her friend and told me the birth story^^.
I'm always trying to be a good listener and validate.
She doesn't tell me too much tho. We don't see that often.
She isn't asking too much about my well being tho. Maybe "how was 'event x'?".
If I keep my answers very short, she gets short in her things too. If I am easy going and tell her some she seems ok and more talkative too. As long as I keep it 'short enough'.
At night we are both home after 7-8 half the week. She's watching "Friends" on Netflix on the couch. I usually stay at the kitchen table and eat and watch too and sometime we both laugh if the show is funny.
Then we go to bed and say goodnight.
So all that pretty much sums up my interactions with W.
Guess some people here would give a lot for this little bit so I can't complain. And it isn't affecting me being with her under a roof. I'm not nervous around her anymore and she doesn't seem pissed that I'm there. She was when I was controlling. Right now I just keep it simple and on the short side.
I think I'm doing ok in these interactions!?
I think they sound ok, as long as you're keeping it friendly and light and no expectations. I was told by my coach to ask questions but not talk too much about my own day/stuff, but just ask H questions about his and listen and validate, HOWEVER I realise that was just in regards to my sitch so it might be a different case in yours. I guess I would say try it for awhile and evaluate how it's working - do what works, right?
Exactly.
I had a good weekend out of town for work. It was a lot of fun and I also think the meds are starting to work better. My mood just improved and my thoughts stay in a straighter line, if you know what I mean.
W's brother texted me and asked how I am doing. He seems to care too. I know he likes me too. Texted with her mom today, she said W needs a counselor to talk to about her problems bc she is talking to absolutely no one in the family about what's going on. Everyone is wondering and they want to understand her but no one does. And W thinks no one understands her either, lol. Her mom asked two older cousins to talk to her, both of them are/used to be respect persons for W. But W doesn't want to and got mad at her mom.
I just told her mom to not pressure W and to rather make her feel loved, because 'the only way into someone's heart is love'.
I'm tired from the weekend but I'm so freaking busy. I added up hours per week, college & work and I got to 50-60h a week. Plus gym and so on..I hope I'm not overdoing it^^
50-60hrs.... no your fine, lol! Lots of us here put in major work/kids/gal hours
I guess it's fine, especially when I still have time to let myself go once in a while and stay in bed an extra hour. Which I deserve by the way!
Today is one of those days where I have to hold myself back. I'm kind of desperate for some interaction with W. I wish we could have a real and sincere conversation or just do sth together. I want to show my new me. We barely see each other atm. But I have to be patient.
I have no clue what OM status is..almost certain there's no PA or anything intense going on...it's circling still but I have it under control.
In general I don't think it's a bad idea to start a little conversation when W is around, if I'm in the right mindset. Usually those are friendly. Right now it might make me miss her even more tho and I'm tempted to pursue, there's things in my head I want to say which I shouldn't. But I think I can control it. I'm def in a much better place than before, which stupidly sometimes makes me believe I can pursue her now with my new mindset.
Then on the other hand I feel very sexually attracted by W at the moment. It's been a few months..I keep thinking of her. Drives me a little crazy at the moment.
I just have to accept right now that I have no idea where my sitch is going. Most likely it will still get worse. Much worse. I want to be prepared. I'm also afraid of the fact that I can't have a clean cut and that full healing is still years away
Hi Complex,
Just remember how you have been feeling recently and try not to let the bad days get you down. Looking through your recent posts it seems you have found a good place mentally. If that is the case then what you are doing is working, so keep it up!
Of course there's bad days along the way, but I'm sure you have a good idea now of how to handle them now.
Complex, the more I follow your sitch and learn about these interactions, the more I'm convinced that your challenge is more of a "career path" one than a "marriage/infidelity' one.
I think if your wife were more convinced of your likelihood for success and stability, she'd be back with you by now. HOWEVER, you need to decide if you want to be married to someone who -- when she doesn't feel secure financially -- not only cuts and runs, but runs to another MAN.
Starsky
This is true...and it's fair. But to be completely accurate, is it so weird for a woman to want to be with a man who can put a roof over her head and food on the table, when she wants to be a mother soon?
And fair or not, most surveys show that most women DO prefer the option of not having to work when they have children, over a life wherein they will have to work a lot even when they become a mother. They at least want the option...
We want men who are stronger than we are (physically at least), who can protect us in the home & on the street, and who can provide for us.
The 2 biggest traits women value in a husband are "security" which means financial and physical (which is why a man who hits or is frequently out of work, often ends up divorced) and fidelity.
Men want an attractive spouse (impossible to do if compared with women half our age) and "peace in the home", which presumably means to stop nagging and not have too much drama.
My feminist friends might detest these results^^ but I think they are fairly reflective of reality.
I used to think men had it worse and sometimes I still feel that way. But as I see so many younger women with older men, and older women with...no one, I now question who really has it the best.
Anyhow, I'd put A LOT of energy into my career if I were you.
REMEMBER She saw you change for the worse in this regard, so you can repair that a lot easier than most.
Make sense?
IDoes make sense. I'm working very hard on myself. But I can't change a carreer over night..and from her perspective it's is too little too late.
But I once used the analogy of buying a car with a dent...she KNEW who I was, in which situatiom I am in, and that I have to start ALL OVER in this country. And obviously it takes time. Yes I did slack, and that worked against me big time. I take full responsibility for this. But does she have to run into another mans arms after a few months of slacking? Do I even want a women like this?
Thing is now she thinks she made a huge mistake "overestimating" me and my ability to conquer life here, move forward and having a career...logical reaction: she wants out because she lost trust and believe in me... She actually told me she just thinks we are different people, that I am who I am. That I actually am an awesome person, but not the one matching her needs in life. I partly agree with her. I made many promises, some of them I couldn't golliw through. So she thinks I'm a great person but I cannot meet her needs in the long term.
Now here's the deal: I agree with that but here come the big BUT:
I was NOT the person I wanted to be. I was not where I want to be in life. I have a goal, a vision. One that totally matches W's needs!!! In many many ways! PROBLEM: For whatever reason I couldn't follow through. I was a pessimist lacking energy and motivation. That's how I am/was. That's my inner fight, since a decade!! There might actually be a real ongoing genetically based depression or some flaw in how I was raised/grew up. But I know what a damn good person I am, and I know about these things. And what happened the last few month triggered in me to come out of the woods and DO the things I wanted, BE the person I want to be. BE a great husband for W.
I grew so much within the last few months. I'm very proud of myself. And it's still a process but I'm not stopping. I know I can't convince W with words and also not as fast as I would want to. I am doing this for myself though!!!!! That she doesn't believe either. In the beginning I didn't beliebe myself either. But now I do. I said it multiple times before and I'll say it again, this is the the best thing that could've happened to me. God must have a good plan for me and I'm thankful to be where I am TODAY!
Very interesting: W came home, I was writing an essay. We had a casual conversation and I kept it going for a bit to feel her out a bit or so. It was just about this and that, TV shows, my meds, and that her mom is bothering her. I also asked her how she is feeling, she said she's quiet emotional recently.
Then I go back to the kitchen table to my laptop. Focusing on my stuff, W turns around looks like a little puppy and apologizes for the situation we are in and that it 'sukks' and that she feels bad that she is having those 'feelings'. I just told her it's understandable. Then I said I take a lot of blame too, she responds I shouldn't and I just said in a strong and calm tone "Last year I just wasn't Complex!". Then I continued my stuff while she kept looking at me.
Not so sure what to think of this and if I reacted totally right, but I think it was ok.
Interesting how DBing warmed her up a bit and the 'struggle' seems to be back, compared to the 'I need to get away asap' from a few weeks ago. I won't read much into it and continue my thing. I'm determined. For myself. My journey isn't close of being complete.
It sounds like you managed to keep that interaction light, shouldered some of the blame, and kept things at a distance, if I'm reading it right. So well done, it would appear you're on the right track. Have you had any more interactions with your W since...how have things progressed from here?
All interaction since then is light. But she definitely opened up more, telling me little story's about work stuff/patients. It still sonehow feels like we are back to the separation thing of last year, where we mostly acted friendly and respectful, but with distance. A few weeks ago our R was rock bottom, due to me snooping and trying to control her and being completely devastated, so she just wanted to get out asap.
Now it feels like the limbo like last year. Since I don't know what's going on in her head right now (I suppose she still wants out and might move forward with the legal separation plans when I receive my greencard, most likely) and I want to keep moving on, I think I might slow down some of the contact. Even though it's only light and more frequent and positive. Maybe it's smart to pull back some more again and make her wonder what I'm doing. Make her curious. Plus I just simply want to continue what I'm doing, because it makes me feel good.
When we have those light conversations I'm always very tempted to tell her about all the things I'm doing, how busy I am. But I hold myself back very well.
It just doesn't feel right for some reason..I think I know what it is: it feels like my old R,....which I don't want anymore anyway...it'll take way more to reach a level of the type of R that I actually really want.. I think it's fine to just listen to my gut right now and do what's good for me and what works.
I mean I think pretty clear at the moment but how would you guys evaluate the latest developments?
Ps: I'm hesitant in praising the meds. They do have their minuses (not hungry enough, sex drive down), but since a few days I feel like I'm on fire. I think straight, I feel good and funnily I feel like I got smarter ha ha. My brain just works better. I feel in a way I always wanted to. Calm, confident, talkative, productive as hell, but it doesn't feel like I'm on drugs, it just feels like ME. Ok I'll bring it to the point: after all the suffering this sht works wonders!
Hi Complex,
It sounds like you're in quite a good place right now. Excellent! As far as your sitch, it seems to me that keeping things light for now would be the best idea. As long as you're not getting carried away and going too in depth with anything, then from what you're saying it seems that you are getting a positive response. Could there be anything going on with your W that has caused her to change over this most recent time? Maybe your change brought about by your meds is going to bring more positive interaction. Just remember to play it cool for now though
I would consider a low sex drive a great thing right now, lol the last thing you need is to be thinking about sex non stop while your wife is wayward.
Yep. Let's say it came down to a 'normal' level haha.
Having more light interaction with W. Most of it is coming from her. I have to admit it gets to me a little bit. I miss her today. She's on the couch and I just wanna lie there with her and cuddle. But of course I know better.
I'm wondering if she misses intimacy too. I mean everyone has a need for intimacy, not only sex I mean. I know she's a cuddler. I'm neither a womam nor her, but I can imagine that it's wearing on we at some point. And it doesn't seem like she get any intimacy from OM.
I still feel good and detached and I don't wanna be too hard on myself. The feelings I have a normal, but I wanna be cautious. I know already that it'd hit me hard again if she'd decide to split and move on and legally S or D.
Not a lot of discussion in my thread about the most recent developments. Probably because I'm in a much better place psychologically. But I'm kinda desparate again for a little breakdown of the latest action and some hands on advice how to deal with W..like how to be mysterious, how to make her want me lol. In the meantime I gotta continue ...I can't slack. Today is the first day of the rest of my life!
Bad bad bad day
I woke up. W in the living room, annoyed sort of. And then she starts the conversation: we need to physically separate! She goes on with how she is 100% convinced she wants to move forward with the separation. Sounding very convinced. I basically gave her my boundary spiel...maybe I was a touch too pursuing but I made things clear. But of course her doors are 100% shut still.
Feels like non of what I did worked at all.
She told me she will even serve me papers if she has to. But we can make it friendly too. She is afraid that I'll make this D nasty and drag it out. I don't know what I should say to that.
I also told her I beleve in we can have a wonderful R that I believe in it, but I'm moving on with or without her. Maybe that was pursuing
Oh man this is frustrating. For her too...not good .....
Sorry to hear that complex,
It sounds like you've had a rough day. It seems to me, of course I'm no expert, that you did the right thing in telling her you don't want D. My last session with DB coach said be consistent over D, if you don't want it and have said that, then continue to say that when the topic comes up.
Do you feel you were pursuing at all? Any idea what may have prompted her sudden decision? Is there any way you could give her space for a few days to get to miss you? Any relatives or friends you coukd visit for a few days?
In the end I actually said sth like I'm sorry you can't see the person I was when we got married. She replied: it wasn't right in the first place. We can continue and be miserable for ever. Me: happiness comes within yourself. W: I am happy with myself. But a R doesnt make just living together wearing rings. Me: you are right, you 'make' it.....W leaves frustrated.
She's on her way to her friend (the enabler) helping her moving 50 miles away...good thing, I bet she'll make her feel better, that stupid D'd btch.
I wonder how well/not so well I did in all this today. I shouldn't have gotten into the discussion too much but if I don't say much she thinks I'm in denial which frustrates her even more. She actually still thinks I am. I made some strong boundary statements today tho. So at least that was ok. But in general W still doesn't seem to believe what I say OR do and strictly follows her own script
She also told me there's NC to OM, which I believe her bc it syncs with all recent action.
I still believe in it. But I wonder if I should just let her go and be done with this. It's so sad. I still believe in her being better than this but she keeps proving me wrong
first time in weeks I'm crying. Looks like I still had some expectations deep down
Have a good cry, get it all out. When you feel you're done have a think back to a happier time and what you're fighting for. Your W still seems to have her mind elsewhere. It seems her friend who is D is offering her a biased shoulder. I feel so sorry for you, but remember, we all have set backs and it ain't over til it's over. Good luck.
She also told me again how sorry she is. That she loves me and cares for me but just not that way and everything was wrong from the beginning.
She wants to help me to find a place, even pay me alimony.
I didn't respond to her "offerings".
I set my boundaries well but it's just so damn frustrating.
Trigger today was probably I walked into the kitchen this morning with underwear. Lol. Since we are no couple I cannot do this she said.
I'm just sooo mad again. It's so ridiculous. It's nothing but a character question, a question of what a commitment means. The best thing is that she believes I will understand "one day". Really?
How deep does she has to fall to understand herself one day?
I still understand her position tho. How can she believe in it already after all that happened. She's not in my head either. She admitted she basically dumped our M in like 3 months. But she KNOWS it's not the right thing so she wants to move on quickly before everything gets worse.
I almost sent her this text, I didn't tho:
I hope you understand that I gave my personal position an awful lot of thought too. I don't want a superficial relationship either. I want a deep one too, one of the next level. I wasn't ready for that in the past. Now I am. I am absolutely convinced we can build it and I value my vows. BUT by no means I'll pursue or force you to do anything anymore. You are you. Never would I ever want to change that ever again! You are a free human being. But so am I.
Had more chat with her mom today. It sounds like W is pretty much turning against her family. A lot of people tried to approach her. She wouldn't talk to anyone. Her brother leaked to our mutual friends too. Everyone disagrees.
Dangerous situation probably. But right now I give a damn!
I'm extremely mad again. And honestly, if she does what she said, moves forward and quick D me..so be it. I won't help her, I'll take what I'm entitled to. She will lose everything. And ok, I'll be bitter about this for the rest of my life but eventually I'll forgive myself and her and find my happiness elsewhere, with someone who deserves it.
"It was all a big mistake" she said...I should find a girlfriend or marry someone else....
I have to sleep over my bad emotions and anger, maybe I'll feel better tomorrow. But after today I think I've reached another point after which I can move on better. I took enough sh*t from her. It's time I stand very tall for what I personally stand for!!! I'm sick of the games she's playing. I'll control this from this day on in my terms!
I'm excited to read this angry text again tomorrow and see where I stand. But one thing is for sure: I'll be standing!!!!
She also told me again how sorry she is. That she loves me and cares for me but just not that way and everything was wrong from the beginning.
She wants to help me to find a place, even pay me alimony.
I didn't respond to her "offerings".
I set my boundaries well but it's just so damn frustrating.
I know all this^^^ hurts. I'm sorry for your pain.
Still, I hope you can see that in HER WAY, she seems to be trying to be in "damage control" mode now. NOT B/c she feels shame, but b/c she feels sympathy for you. MOST WAS's DO NOT.
Maybe you should join her in the Damage Control mode...?
Mostly I hope you will Stop taking every single thing she says, in the worst possible light.
I think she is sincere and I don't see any upside to you negating that. I think you are making it worse for yourself and certainly for her. Maybe obstructing her is your goal but I really don't see the benefit to it, (for YOU, let alone her).
Trigger today was probably I walked into the kitchen this morning with underwear. Lol. Since we are no couple I cannot do this she said.
I'm just sooo mad again. It's so ridiculous. It's nothing but a character question,
IMO,< THIS^^^ is where you repeat your mistake & stay stuck...you condemn her and get yourself all worked up again,
even when she makes offers to your benefit, that almost no other Walkaway wife would...
Plus you end up sounding judgemental and you gloss over your part in this, again.
My question for you is, HOW does condemning and judging her, help you?
a question of what a commitment means. The best thing is that she believes I will understand "one day". Really?
How deep does she has to fall to understand herself one day?
I still understand her position tho. How can she believe in it already after all that happened.
Read your words^^^ again Complex...IF You really do understand her position -- then stop the talking and DO the walking.
That ^^ is a phrase Americans use that says, basically, "action speaks louder than words".
Tell us, What has SHE SEEN from you that is different - and for how long? A week or a month? And what was it that was so new for you?
Compared with how long she saw the "not so busy" Complex, you must admit it will take her time to believe in any changes you may be making.
I read somewhere that for every year of "unwanted behavior", it takes at least a month of new changes for a spouse to SEE the change, plus more time for them to believe it's real OR lasting...
From what you write here, I don't think any of your changes have been consistent for a single month. Sorry Complex, I know that's hard to hear, but it's true. She really hasn't got a solid reason to believe you are different and that you can or will meet her needs in the long run.
You harp on her character (repeatedly) but evidently even you think she's being honest about OM and that she is doing what you SAY you would expect i.e. that if she wants to date OM she should divorce you first. Well, that's what she is doing, correct?
As painful and gut wrenching as that must be, it is NOT a reason for you to malign her more. It's just the opposite.
You can't determine that she must be a bad person b/c she does not want to be married to you WHILE you admit you did not live up to your promises or her expectations
and you admit on some days, that you did not live up to Your own expectations either.
I suggest you focus on making changes for yourself, while knowing that it's the only possible way to get thru to her anyhow. No more about how bad & wrong she is.
That^^ helps no one, including you.
She's not in my head either. She admitted she basically dumped our M in like 3 months. But she KNOWS it's not the right thing so she wants to move on quickly before everything gets worse.
Do you see how you make yourself feel worse this way? You besmirch her but you don't benefit. If you want to feel better about yourself, you need NOT tear her down; just "up" yourself and feel good about what you are creating and doing.
Make sense?
I almost sent her this text, I didn't tho:
I hope you understand that I gave my personal position an awful lot of thought too. I don't want a superficial relationship either. I want a deep one too, one of the next level. I wasn't ready for that in the past. Now I am.
It's hard to be honest about this now, so I admire your candor. But you need to take a look at your admission. You were NOT in a deep loving marriage or one that connected at a level SHE needed...
"now" you feel you are ready for it. You have been married a few years and in those years, evidently, she felt lonely on a deep & spiritual level. The marriage was a shallow one for her and now, even you can see that.
Have you truly reflected on this?
I am absolutely convinced we can build it and I value my vows. BUT by no means I'll pursue or force you to do anything anymore. You are you. Never would I ever want to change that ever again! You are a free human being. But so am I.
Not sure what the goal of ^^^ this is. No offense Complex, but you are mostly stating the obvious. ---
Are you just restating that you "value" your vows to make the point that she must not?
I can't say if that is even true, but I can say that it won't help for you to suggest it.
What do you really want her to know, now? What is it you want to say to her?
Figure that^^ out, and be able to say it concisely. Let us know, too.
But again, it's NOT words she needs from you. It is new/different behavior.
Otherwise, she has No reason to believe that marriage to you now, would be any better or different than before.
And before, was NOT enough for her so she wanted out (AND you now admit it was not a deep marriage for you either.)
So you both want a deeper marriage now. She does not believe you are capable of that with her.
So what are you DOING (not just saying) that would show her - you/marriage can be deeper?
Because no one returns to marriage they left,
unless
they believe it can be better/different than before.
Had more chat with her mom today. It sounds like W is pretty much turning against her family. A lot of people tried to approach her. She wouldn't talk to anyone. Her brother leaked to our mutual friends too. Everyone disagrees.
Dangerous situation probably. But right now I give a damn!
I'm extremely mad again. And honestly, if she does what she said, moves forward and quick D me..so be it. I won't help her, I'll take what I'm entitled to. She will lose everything. And ok, I'll be bitter about this for the rest of my life but eventually I'll forgive myself and her and find my happiness elsewhere, with someone who deserves it.
"It was all a big mistake" she said...I should find a girlfriend or marry someone else....
You need to see how back & forth you go here (Below).
I say this NOT B/c I was fully consistent in my journey from day one, but b/c you must see how You appear in HER EYES...
Watch your inconsistencies and flip flops.
I have to sleep over my bad emotions and anger, maybe I'll feel better tomorrow. But
after today I think I've reached another point after which I can move on better. I took enough sh*t from her.
So you are saying you "Can move on better"...
It's time I stand very tall for what I personally stand for!!! I'm sick of the games she's playing. I'll control this from this day on in my terms!
After saying you won't try to control her, and that you "Can move on", you now say you will "Stand...for what you personally stand for"....(??) and
you will "control this from this say on..." ( 
??) Confusing.
I'm excited to read this angry text again tomorrow and see where I stand.
"Because I have no control over how I feel"?? I will "see where I stand"....
(To me, Complex, this sounds like someone who moves and changes, the way leaves move when the wind blows. Does it sound very directed to you?).But one thing is for sure:
I'll be standing!!!!
Complex, here are some phrases You used about your path.
"Maybe I'll feel better tomorrow",
"I can move on",
I will be "standing tall, tomorrow I will "see where I stand", etc.
Ponder ^^ those a minute, okay?
Complex, you probably think I'm picking on you. Really I want you to see how you present yourself - so you can see the reason your wife sees you as Not very different yet.
You want her to see a Strong, directed adult Man, committed to his work and his relationships, correct?
How do you think you can do more that would support ^^ these images?
Not sure how to thank you enough for your view. Again incredibly helpful.
I will answer everything in detail later. It gave me a very good insight and better perspective again. Very thankful!
I know all this^^^ hurts. I'm sorry for your pain.
I truly appreciate 25yr. That was a rough day but I have to say I am in a much better place than weeks ago. I catch myself much faster.
Still, I hope you can see that in HER WAY, she seems to be trying to be in "damage control" mode now. NOT B/c she feels shame, but b/c she feels sympathy for you. MOST WAS's DO NOT.
Maybe you should join her in the Damage Control mode...?
Very good observation. I am glad you pointed this out. It is important to know. I know she values me a lot, thinking in high terms of me.
HOW should I join her controlling damage? I don't know exactly what you mean. I think she is sincere and I don't see any upside to you negating that. I think you are making it worse for yourself and certainly for her. Maybe obstructing her is your goal but I really don't see the benefit to it, (for YOU, let alone her).
THAT I thought was a great advice. Because I know she is sincere. Many times people advised me tho to not believe anything she is saying, but in my case that eventually hurt me more than it was beneficial. Because I lost a lot of trust between us. Yes, she did hide certain things but she hardly ever lied me in the face.
But I am still judging her and obstruct her behavior, although she is actually being pretty nice about things. Which is kind of scary because it shows how conscious she is about her decision and reasons to leave me that she doesn't see ANY sort of a chance for reconciliation and that our M could be better.
I will use this advice tho to understand her better. To understand "the works of her soul" better...that is what she told me once that she wants that from a partner.
So that is what SHE needs and wants right? Fair enough, who doesn't want that. But after all shouldn't we be aware of that his kind of thinking tends to be unrealistic "Disney"-Love...to some extend at least, I don't want to exaggerate this thought. Understanding the works of someone else's soul doesn't come over night either. It is also object/subject of work and time. None of my complaints change how she is thinking. Thoughts are free and to the people that think them, they are the truth. But maybe they are limited in the ability to see things from a different light?! Plus you need to be willing to let the other person into the works of your soul too by open heart. If you decide to work on your marriage, which is what we briefly did, her heart and soul was closed to me. I tried hard to understand her, get on a level with her. Maybe it was too forced, didn't feel natural enough, and as we all know women catch that very fast.
I don't want to get too philosophical, I just feel like her view is too one sided, obviously and there was never an open heart try. But you know what...maybe she IS right. We match in many many points, we could be the best couple ever, but then character wise there are definitely conflict points...or should I say there is something that just doesn't want to match. It is hard to describe. It could be that we maybe aren't meant to be or it could be a flaw in our characters that we didn't manage to overcome in our relationship.
I am a believer tho. I believe in our M, in us a people, that we have the ability to overcome our differences. But only with love and work on both sides. Both not equally given at this time.
IMO,< THIS^^^ is where you repeat your mistake & stay stuck...you condemn her and get yourself all worked up again,
even when she makes offers to your benefit, that almost no other Walkaway wife would...
Plus you end up sounding judgmental and you gloss over your part in this, again.
My question for you is, HOW does condemning and judging her, help you?
This part you commented I was pretty mad. The only benefit is actually a selfish one. It makes you (me), temporarily, feel better. I have to stop that, but sometime you just need to vent. I am trying to control myself as good as I can. In front of W I do not let my emotions flow like this anymore, I greatly improved with that.
Tell us, What has SHE SEEN from you that is different - and for how long? A week or a month? And what was it that was so new for you? Most of my changes actually started after I hit rock bottom in January, twice in a row. After the second time, which was end of Jan I felt like I finally got my sh*t together. And since 3-4 weeks my meds are working better constantly. Since 1-2 weeks I feel like a different person. Not different actually, more like the OLD ME. SO YES, it's been very recent. But also very drastic.
- I am not complaining anymore, less grumpy, more positive, changed my attitude, less judgmental (maybe not towards W as you mentioned)
- I am working out again, very strict routine multiple times a week, with no exceptions! Gained some muscle. Eat much healthier (W comment 3 days ago: "Oh, so you are all healthy now, huh?")
- College going very well, I am very steady, have good grades/results, never miss class
- I get up in the morning, earlier than I used to, very constant
- I stopped snooping completely and stopped any forms of trying to control W
- I am listening better and validate
- My morals and values improved, I just feel like a better human being. I always was but maybe some of the developments came to fast for W to believe, so she might still think I am faking it to win her back...that might actually be valid for many of my improvements still, because they were very recent and some of them drastic.
And it will take more time for sure.
My W is smart, you know, I am sure she sees what I am doing better and she is probably happy for me. But like you said and I realized, all the above factors play more of a minor role in why W wants to leave. It all boils down to life-goals/career-thinking/spiritual compatibility for her IMO. And her mind is made up at this time. And as far as I, and everyone else, know her...she is a stubborn head And all this is serious live affecting stuff, and it will take a lot more than convincing. It is a major decision, she would basically have to marry me all over again.The step for reconciliation is humongous. After all MWD calls it a marathon. And I understand I have to do all this for myself too. Because I will benefit from it the rest of my life.
You can't determine that she must be a bad person b/c she does not want to be married to you WHILE you admit you did not live up to your promises or her expectations
and you admit on some days, that you did not live up to Your own expectations either.
I suggest you focus on making changes for yourself, while knowing that it's the only possible way to get thru to her anyhow. No more about how bad & wrong she is.
That^^ helps no one, including you. I answered a lot of this in my evaluation above. But all I actually need to say to this is: Y E S ! You are right!
It's hard to be honest about this now, so I admire your candor. But you need to take a look at your admission. You were NOT in a deep loving marriage or one that connected at a level SHE needed...
"now" you feel you are ready for it. You have been married a few years and in those years, evidently, she felt lonely on a deep & spiritual level. The marriage was a shallow one for her and now, even you can see that.
Have you truly reflected on this?
I absolutely did. Very late in my sitch tho. But that is why I married her, right? And that is why I am here. To work through the issues, no matter how big they are. And I am willing to give my absolute best, which I am right now (ok we can ALWAYS do better...but you get the point). Our marriage deserves a chance to find out the truth, because the truth lies somewhere in the middle usually....EVERY marriage here deserves a second chance....it's M. I guess I stated the obvious again...like in the next paragraph I will get back to this and answer the rest, and also the most important questions later, time passed too fast and I have to go to college
Not sure what the goal of ^^^ this is. No offense Complex, but you are mostly stating the obvious. ---
Are you just restating that you "value" your vows to make the point that she must not?
I can't say if that is even true, but I can say that it won't help for you to suggest it.
What do you really want her to know, now? What is it you want to say to her?
Well, that is a very good question. I want her to understand me and the works of my soul too. Because there is so much more to it than she might think. I am a person with a vision, but struggle to follow through, because I never felt I have a reason to, never had enough energy. But I came to humongous realizations what love means, what she means to me, what live means, what being myself means and what it means to let her be herself and support her. I am more motivated than ever to build a great life. I understand her better than ever ever before. I just maybe cannot express myself well enough.
"Simplified": I want her to see and understand that our dreams and hopes and fears match greatly. That we are very similar human beings and that I understand her, want to support us and her and let her be herself so she can thrive and grow as a person while I will do the same and we can be the strong couple and team we both desire.
But again, it's NOT words she needs from you. It is new/different behavior.
Otherwise, she has No reason to believe that marriage to you now, would be any better or different than before.
And before, was NOT enough for her so she wanted out (AND you now admit it was not a deep marriage for you either.)
So you both want a deeper marriage now. She does not believe you are capable of that with her.
So what are you DOING (not just saying) that would show her - you/marriage can be deeper?
Because no one returns to marriage they left, unless they believe it can be better/different than before.
Now this also is not easy to answer. I do a lot of things, mostly for myself right now. Which means I am building myself a life and getting rid of the dependency I have on her. To release her from the pressure of that. That we can also have an equal level of education and success at some point. Something that will connect us in the very long term. Because we both have the same idea. We want to do GOOD things, help people. I want to teach, I have the idea of going abroad one day, do some third world development volunteer work. This is one of her dreams too as a nurse. I event want to build a foundation one day, helping children in poor countries.
OK I got side tracked, so
a) I loosen myself from dependency, strengthen myself so I can also be a strong partner
b) I am listening and validating much better, sincerely
c) I let her be herself more
I don't really know what else I could do in my position. Any attempt of connecting to her through daily communication or even many of my actions are still seen as pursuing.
And my career steps are slow, this isn't happening fast and she wants to break lose, being able to breathe again. I can see how draining it is for her.
Suggestions?
Another thing: We switch bedrooms every week, so it's fair, because the guest bed isn't as comfy. She is very stressed by the living situation (without judging if that is the right thing or not, because many here would say that she is free to leave if she is stressed out right? but it is not that black and white as we discovered). So I got a mattress topper for the guest bed and it's really comfy now and I told her yesterday I will give the living situation a thought if I might just stay in my office room. So tomorrow I wanted to take a step towards her and suggest some improvements in our situation, splitting rooms, maybe moving some cloths so I don't need to walk in the other room all the time etc. I feel good about the decision. It's mature and takes the high road and more beneficial than harming. What do you think?
So my therapist told me I am making a lot of progress very fast. I agree.
Interaction with W is still light and more friendly, even after she told me I should move out and I said I won't...
So back to where we were before. I keep doing my thing. Stay busy. Yesterday I showered put some cologne on and went out for a bit meeting with a friend on a green beer while W was watching TV on the couch.
Felt good. I'm in a bit of a moral struggle. I started looking more at other women. Maybe just to see what's out there..and I didn't have sex in 3-4 months. I imagine R's with other women..how it could be,...I just feel like I want to be admired and loved for who I am..., but I still didn't give up hope. Is that morally ok? I catch myself and feel like it's alright but I want to keep focusing on myself and the promise I made. I thought I'll only get married ONCE in my life, that's what I believed in, at least for myself.
I hope 25yr is coming back one of these days to answer my remaining questions. It was humongously helpful of her what she wrote and I didn't feel criticized at all, it was very constructive.
Still need to fulfill some more GAL stuff like volunteering and church but I'm just so dead tired today and yesterday from working out so hard and then working and school all day ...I'll take a well deserved nap now and head back to work after
I think those are very natural feelings, Complex. I sure went thru them when I was in my sitch. We're human.
Starsky
Hi Complex,
I think looking around at what it out there female wise is perfectly natural. Maybe it is a sign that you although you want things to work out, if they don't you are coming to terms that one day there might have to be someone else for you. Admittedly I have been doing the same, looking at people I pass by and weighing up in my head if I liked them or not, what a R would be like etc.
Of course the key thing is whether or not you intend to act on these new feelings or urges. Do you? Are you just speculating on what it might be like or are you giving it serious consideration that you would maybe want to begin looking at other women? I don't think there is a right or wrong answer there, just more of a signpost as to where you're at and what you should be focusing your energies on.
I may be wrong but from the comments you wrote about making a promise it seems that you are not at the 'moving on' stage at the moment. If that is the case I would not advise entering into another R if that's going to make any future reconciliation more complicated/impossible.
I have found myself looking at other women also!! I think it is because I am now being ignored by my spouse pretty much. I also think about what it would be like. I also think I am looking to see if they are looking at me. I am alot older than I was before W and I met. I noticed the women looking at me back than. Guess I want to see if they still would if I end up single again. Sounds kinda funny! I think I also want to feel wanted and wonder what it would be like in a different relationship.
Sounds like everyone is experiencing the same. I guess it part of the healing process. It helps me to see there is something else out there.
But he'll no I am not ready for dating, the healing process will take so much longer until I feel ready for something serious. I just have desires, but I don't act upon them. It feels good tho to be acknowledged by the other gender.
Besides showing consistency, which I think is most important in my sitch right now and also for myself, what is there I can do to show W that I understand her feelings and understand the "simplified" statement I made when I answered 25yr (I do listen and validate but I don't really ask how she is doing etc.)?
I actually feel like I'm DB pretty well, taking good care of myself.
I just find it so important in this phase to stay true to myself and that I'm not too hard on myself.
Good GAL day yesterday. I briefly saw W at night, made myself nice and ready and went out..to the casino with a friend, which I didn't tell w..and I didn't get back before midnight.
She texted me that it's her dads birthday on Saturday and they have dinner at her grandmas...and that she wanted to "extend the invitation" and I can come if I want, "no obligation" tho.
Should I go? I kind of want to but it'll be awkward kind of. I think W doesn't even know that her family knows about OM by the way, not that it makes a real difference in this occasion. Weird that W invited me, not her dad himself.
I feel like I should go, be upbeat and nice to her family. I miss them anyway.
I think a reply of, "I would like that but let's meet there because I have plans later in the evening" and then skip out right after singing/cake....
That way it's about the birthday NOT spending time with wife AND you get to be mysterious.
I think a reply of, "I would like that but let's meet there because I have plans later in the evening" and then skip out right after singing/cake....
That way it's about the birthday NOT spending time with wife AND you get to be mysterious.
I love this idea ^^^ !!!
Dinner cancelled. Grandma doesn't feel well. Postponed.
I just scheduled my last session with my DB coach due to a text conversation with W. She accidentally sent a text to me instead of a friend of hers, saying she is super emotional right now, wants to cry, because she just had a conversation with a coworker that I don't want to move out and it's annoying her. Then she was like "oops wrong person, sorry"
I just replied "sorry you are feeling down".
Then we had a little discussion via text, not my favorite way of communication but I had to set some boundaries.
This was a crucial conversation to the extend that it will come up more often from now on and I think I have to protect myself and my position and take the high road. Would be great if someone could evaluate this if I presented kyself ok, because W still thinks I act like a child, although I clearly drew some lines there:
W: we need separate homes. What do you say? We are breaking up and we can't live like this forever.
M: Maybe not forever, I'm just saying that I am staying in the home that's also mine. You are free to do what you want. I'm sorry it's affecting you negatively and that you are emotional
W: And you say you don't want to stand in my way but you are. So what is keeping you from moving out? Money? I'll give you money.
M: This is not my idea and I am not going to do any actions towards a divorce myself. Please respect that
W: so I have to force you and I'll end up hating you for it. I keep giving you time but not anymore.
M: I'm sorry if you feel that way that you will hate me.
W: you are living in denial and won't leave, it's pathetic. We have no marriage. I won't be nice anymore
M: I appreciate you are working with me, giving me the opportunity to stay
I am not in denial. Denial means I don't realize what you want but I do but I have my own believes, I am a free human being.
W: you are blocking me from moving forward. That's not love. It's called being selfish
M: Not wanting a D is not selfish. I have my own values
W: ok then let's live like this forever, you make no sense. You are fkn ridiculous, is it your value to stay in an unhappy marriage or are you just afraid of walking away from sth that isn't right?
M: I know you and I know me and I believe in marriage and we had a great time together. I am ready to work on a deeper relationship. I want one too.
But that's MY believe
W: you can't force me. For the last time: I don't want this! If you want to force someone to be married buy a slave.
M: I'm sorry to hear that but I'm not going to force you to do anything
W: in your head you think if you stick around it'll all be good but that's not realistic!
M: I do not think that
W: if you don't want to move out the police will, is that what you want (remember the grant deed we signed says it is my wife's property, which kind of screws me over legally on this, but my money is in here too and we didn't even sign that intentionally)
M: I'm moving on with or without you but I believe in marriage. I do not want to fight, I respect your feelings but please respect mine too. What's right for you might not be right for me.
W: yes breakups suck. But I'm not staying married to you because it's better for you. It's my life too.
M: m sticking with my personal boundaries but I don't want to take advantage of you financially. I only wanted to get married once in my life.
W: things don't always turn out the way we want. That's live. Deal with it, you are acting like a child.
M: I took a vow and I'm sticking with it. I feel good about it. I am doing the right thing.
But I will not stand in your way. Please respect though that I won't take any actions my own towards my own divorce. That's not acting like a child, it's standing for something. I'm sorry if this sounds contradictory to how I acted last year in our marriage. I didn't live up to it.
Honestly? I think this comes across as needy, controlling and smothering. I am NOT telling you to leave your own house, but I'm talking more about the words you are using and the stance you are taking. You're basically INVALIDATING everything she feels, and saying "I'm sorry you feel that way, but I love you and so I'm not letting go. I still believe in us."
To a wayward wife, that is like NAILS ON A BLACKBOARD to them. Now, you may not CARE about that, but if your goal is to still try and re-attract her, I would NOT advocate going about it this way.
My two cents.
Starsky
And now she told me she contacted a lawyer. And also started threatening me with my greencard. Just wow.
I thought I was very straight forward and calm in the conversation. I don't know...how did this look from the outside?
We continued the conversation for a bit and I think I did an ok job. I'll post some of it later.
It was rough but my detachment is there and it feels sooo good to take the hgh road. I'm really trying also not to sound passive aggressive, but somewhere I must have failed due to her responses. She even tried to bribe me, move out or....greencard. To this I just made clear in not letting myself bribe.
And that I cannot talk to her like this.
Oh man. Super tough BUT SOMEHOW I FEEL GOOD!!! I might not have done the best thing DB wise. Maybe I could have worded things differently, and clearly do more of what works failed because this didn't work at all, but at least I feel good about myself taking the high road. Any criticism is welcome tho. I'm sure I'm still not fully doing/saying the rift things.
Maybe I shouldn't even get into those discussions but for a fact I know that works even worse bc it's building up extreme frustration for W.
Starsky, what should I do instead?
Give in? Move out? Say nothing? Validate more? I'm lost what to say in those situations. She is putting so much pressure on me in those conversations.
Purpose of this is to actually gain respect back for what I stand for. By consistency.
She knows I love her and think differently, it's obvious. ALL forms of reattaching her failed utterly so far. I did a lot of things right, moving forward with a lot of actions, not words. Of course there's no real consistency to it because it's only a month or so but I have to make clear: she made up her mind. Before she doesn't hit fkn rock bottom herself...after i am home, NOTHING is gonna change her mind. Not Amt time soon. Its a fact.
But I utterly fail responding in the best way to her.
*after I'm gone (moved out).
What everyone told me here in the very beginning: life has to teach her a lesson.
I don't mind her knowing that I love her and that I believe in my marriage. That's what I think. I don't want to play games anymore!!!! I stand for my believes. Period. Eventually I will gain a lot of respect for that. For myself, from others and one day from W. She doesn't even believe I love her truly. That I'm selfish.
Only if I truly stand up for myself she might realize one day. I tend to not come across the right way. Language barrier maybe and problems expressing myself the right way.
My W is stubborn like hell, and she can't deal properly with stressful situations. She goes out of control like this.
So I'm taking the high road, stand for what I believe in, but give her the freedom she wants to have. I'll let her go, what can I do? I can make myself feel better, do the right thing, so I can be in peace with myself.
And that eventually IS attractive! In my opinion.
Every day, every discussion with her..she gets more distant for me personally.
I feel incredibly distant and I started doubting again that I actually really want to save my marriage.
I just don't deserve this. Especially now when I see how much I have developed personally. Being a better person, taking the high road..and W is continuing with NO regret, NO change, whatsoever...even more just trying to pick fights, present herself and me in a negative light. This is not the person I know. I really thought she is one that is able to reflect on things. It's so hard. But I already showed so much patience, and I have some more, but I do not know for how long.
I seriously need a game plan. Because I think my marriage is now at the very very brink of D. She wants to move on ASAP. As soon as I'll get my greencard she will file and proceed.
I probably ran into a few cheese less tunnels today and had a bit of a throwback discussing with her. She is a genius throwing me into a defensive position. But I feel better because I simply feel stronger, doing the right thing and handle things very maturely.
But what now? She's gonna file. Nothing, absolutely nothing or no one will stop her anymore. I just know it, and my gut feeling is usually very dependable. Plus she said so, and she means it. Go ahead and tell me it's an assumption. I'll be stubborn and tell you I know better.
OK, my sitch, retrospectively and looking at my own future: WHAT should I do???? Since I keep running into cheeseless tunnels during Amy serious form of communication and nothing what I do or did, action wise, consistently or not, works. AT WHAT POINT should I change my strategy and/or give in?
I feel like it would be beneficial if I start cooperating finding solutions and not stand in the way of the D or LS anymore. I can stretch it, make it painful and stressful or start cooperating on a level that doesn't cross my boundaries, let her leave and move on, let her learn her own lessons, move on myself and if it happens that we both grow and our paths cross again and the love revives, cool. If not, cool too..at least there will be some sort of a cut. Question remains if I should shoot for LS, which is the better option if I don't want D. But it will leave me with hopes. This will become a very serious and hard decision for me.
Right now it just feels like a fight who is stronger in his opinion, not beneficial for neither one. And since it's only a question of time until she proceeds with legal action, my time is limited. Need advice...or am I overthinking again because of what happened today? I took a stand, but just to see how closed she still is.
Complex, I feel you are still acting tactically rather than stragtegically.
But what now? She's gonna file. Nothing, absolutely nothing or no one will stop her anymore.
Listen to yourself here, because this part is true:
There is nothing you can do to stop her. Stop resisting. Stop trying to make a decision between S and D. That is entirely her choice - she's going to do what she's going to do.
We keep telling you that the only thing that may attract her back is an independent Complex that is getting on with his life. You have made good progress in that, but you keep wanting to show that off to her to convince her that she is making the wrong move.
Unfortunately, Complex, she has to come to that conclusion on her own, and you trying to convince her is counterproductive.
Loslassen! Sie solten, und Sie mussen.
I agree. I finally feel the detachment I need, but I didn't really let her go yet.
The thing is it feels like such a burden to find the right balance between letting go and cooperation. She basically expects cooperation, or she gets very very frustrated and angry.
She told me yesterday that she wants to get D done asap because she wants to move on with her life and that she is so frustrated because she wants to see some kind of a schedule when we are going to separate physically. Sounds like she is in a limbo herself and this stresses her greatly.
If I could 'convince' her of a LS instead of a D, that would be very beneficial. Health insurance...plus it's still not 100% final. D is. So I think it's ok to move that direction instead of letting her decide it alone.
So part of showing my maturity etc and changing the image she has of me (which is ridiculously bad right now it feels like) would be to at least work on some kind of separation plan, make some financial calculations etc, thinking more about my own future...plus I have to truly let her go. Which I thought I did, but appearantly not enough.
What I did the last couple weeks was building trust back and be easy going and upbeat with her, to at least create a better atmosphere and slowly reconcile at least what's left of our friendship. I was very cautios. But now it more seems like even that is completely destroyed...by her. She wants to get away from me.
She gave me a feeling as if I would be such a bad person. This crosses my boundaries because I'm not going to let her talk me down like this. I know what I am worth and what a good person I am. Not going to let that anyone take away from me anymore.
And honestly. I did/am doing all the right things action wise. Communication wise I'm still a little cheeseless. So I have to be careful.
Time to focus some more on my things and blending out the M.
Right now I DO all these things for myself, but I also do them because I want to save my M. Maybe I should give that up and be completely over my M. The end.
I think this would reallybhelp me. Whatever happens then, no one knows anyway.
We made 'friends' again yesterday and W was more friendly and I actually learned one more time how to understand her better.
I can really see why she thinks we are not made for each other.
The discussions we had the last couple days really showed that we talk around each other still. Wheh there is just the slightest of heat we cannot communicate properly. We are on such a different level. Still I'm trying, she's blocking then.
Still in my opinion nothing for me personally to give up already, but we all know that.
Hard part: making friends with her makes me love her. Seeing the person she can be doesn't help me letting her go. it was easier to not like her...but that's always the easier way. Love is the harder one.
Good I have a DB coach session on Monday. I feel a little lost right now...not sure what my 'strategy' should be...not my tactics.
...besides continuing my own stuff..
Your strategy should be to build yourself into the best man and the best potential husband for someone (if being married is what you enjoy) that you can. You pray that that's with your wife, but you don't focus on it -- you focus on YOU.
Even your recent post of 3/21 is still WAY too much about her, your statement at the end of it notwithstanding.
Starsky
I agree it's still too much about her. And I like how you put that into perspective about learning a lot simply about how to be a good husband, man and person.
The thing is even then W isn't ever coming back. The only way to her heart is to accept her who she is and to reach a deeper level of understanding and connection. But these things need to be worked on too, that's why I am still partially focused on her, to figure out if this is truly possible between us. I'm really trying all these things but they get blocked. Maybe my mistake lies in the fact that right now is NOT the time to "try". If I'm honest to myself: I'm tactical because I want her to at least subconciously feel that I truly love her and that I'm trying to get where she wants to be in a R. But my efforts make her more mad than anything else bc she has made up her mind.
This is where I am stuck. Plainly focusing on myself VS tactical behaviour trying to influence W's thinking.
I feel strong enough to let her completely go. Or maybe I should at least shift my focus way to my own side as a start. It feels counterintuitive to emotionally completely ditch her, but that's what DB is a lot.
I just really don't know how to balance these things out so that they are beneficial for me and my M...but maybe my fault lies in that sentence alone, because there is no M anymore and me is all I have right now.
I agree it's still too much about her. And I like how you put that into perspective about learning a lot simply about how to be a good husband, man and person.
The thing is even then W isn't ever coming back. The only way to her heart is to accept her who she is and to reach a deeper level of understanding and connection. But these things need to be worked on too, that's why I am still partially focused on her, to figure out if this is truly possible between us. I'm really trying all these things but they get blocked. Maybe my mistake lies in the fact that right now is NOT the time to "try". If I'm honest to myself: I'm tactical because I want her to at least subconciously feel that I truly love her and that I'm trying to get where she wants to be in a R. But my efforts make her more mad than anything else bc she has made up her mind.
This is where I am stuck. Plainly focusing on myself VS tactical behaviour trying to influence W's thinking.
I feel strong enough to let her completely go. Or maybe I should at least shift my focus way to my own side as a start. It feels counterintuitive to emotionally completely ditch her, but that's what DB is a lot.
I just really don't know how to balance these things out so that they are beneficial for me and my M...but maybe my fault lies in that sentence alone, because there is no M anymore and me is all I have right now.
You picked a perfect username.
I realized that quickly. Spot on.
It may seem complicated now tho. But when I look back in 10 years I probably think "what a sympatic fool I was"
I was invited for dinner for W dads birthday. Dad, grandma, brother, me, W. It was pleasant, almost like nothing ever happened. I was upbeat and we all had a hilarious long conversation about rodents lol. Then I was the first to leave to finish sth for work.
All good. No hard feelings after, no sadness. Feeling ok.
Great that you had a nice evening Complex. You know to have no expectations but maybe it's these little things that start to make your S think about things again.
Pessimistic as I am I don't believe that
BUT it for sure is showing her how good I am still with her family. Down the road it might help. For easter I'm invited again on the mothers side. Same game, I feel pretty good about it, confident enough to take on whatever is coming.
I'm very positive and hyped today. It's still a bit of a rollercoasters emotionally but my good days are very frequent. I feel the confidence I need.
For some reason I feel super confident about being able to save my marriage, or at least that I'm able to do all the right things so I can be in peace with myself no matter what happens. I feel like I get closer and closer to truly understand what it takes and to understand my W too. Of course I'll be cautious not building expectations. It's hard because that's how our brain is wired. But I'll never fall as deep as I once did, ever again.
One thing I really want to work on is communication. I know talking is no good, actions speak louder but communication is essential and it shows how I present myself and I just don't do well enough with it. And communication can mean more than words too. How I present myself in general is truly something I want to work on. How I feel and how I express myself through words or actions doesn't always fully match. I'm a thinker, a philosophist. I have great thoughts, have a very high emotional intelligence. But the tools for proper expression what's really going on in my head, is lacking talent
Are there any books or just general advices on this? Thanks.
This week I got 'Connecting Through Yes' by Jack Ito. It is a very good book. It basically covers agreement (validation) as a means to build respect and then attraction through agreement. It covers divorce, infidelity, and a rang of other topics. Not quite the step by step in depth guide I thought it might be but it makes a lot of sense. If you search his name he has a site/blog with many good articles.
Also, people say 5 love languages is a good read. I don't have it myself though yet.
I have read that book. I liked it. Very helpful.
What Starsky said in your thread tho is very true: if you are in a place where you are not detached enough, not confident enough, still struggling with enotions..then you should NOT go ahead and "try to connect" with your WAW.
The mindset needs to be right.
Also remember the DR book. Pick your spots wisely. A) only do, if any, serious talk when W is receptive and open, not when she's tired after work etc etc and more important B) only when you feel like you are on your DB A-game!!
Hm my postings don't get a lot of recognition recently. I'm in a good place but I still make a lot of mistakes and need to keep working hard on myself,...for a long time.
Me and W are on the friendly side again. She's even texting me about stuff, like the plane crash in Germany we talked a lot about.
I'm still GAL a lot. Volunteer training next week, super excited. I'll go camping soon I decided, maybe just half an hour down the coast, camp, bbq and surf 1-2 days. My work is taking off, I'm busier than ever, have long work days, work out a lot, are good at school, have new friends I hang out with...etc.
I'm mainly working on finding the right strategy of DB in my current situation. Still so many open questions. Especially techniques how to present myself so W changes the picture of me she has right now. Ill traf Old Posts in my threads again and DR again to review some advices.
I just want a game plan. Maybe I'll sit on it tonight and draw a clear picture of where I want to be, what I'm doing and also how to technically deal with W in certain situations. So I know "ok this is the situation -> this is my position, this is what I do in this situation".
Hi Complex
Sounds like you are doing great. And I was pleased to read about your progress - until the last two paras - all about W and needing a game plan...
I would forget all that. The more you seek a game plan, the more you stay attached, looking for the magic thing that will turn everything. No, I think you just need to keep the forward momentum with all the other stuff and maintain pleasant busy upbeat (not OTT) and so on with your W. I would stop looking for anything else. Remember actions not words, and your volunteering, busy at work, working out, school success and new friends are what will do the 'talking' to your W.
Less talk....keep the forward momentum on the action I say....Good for you :-)
Thanks toots.
I know the last part was not good, because it's still circling. I just want to truly "get" and understand my W. That's the only base of a new R with her that would make thibgs possible at all. That's why I want to do sth in regards to get to know her love language better and how she really is.
Maybe this effort will be for nothing, I don't know. I just think it is essential, but is it more of a topic when already piecing?
Thanks toots.
I know the last part was not good, because it's still circling. I just want to truly "get" and understand my W. That's the only base of a new R with her that would make thibgs possible at all. That's why I want to do sth in regards to get to know her love language better and how she really is.
Complex, you want a "game plan", correct? That means you need a GOAL, and a plan to achieve that goal. But the goal cannot be to reconcile with your wife.
Sounds sad and harsh, I know. But this^^ is ALL about you wanting something you cannot necessarily ever have. For now, I think you must forget her.
The goal FOR NOW must be exclusively about your own growth as a man. Becoming the best man you can become. DEFINE that in specific terms you understand.
Get some "mantras" or inspiring quotes for yourself, and SAY them out loud to yourself several times a day.
Turn your marriage over to God, to free yourself to just work on YOU.
Behave in healthy confident ways and eventually, you will FEEL healthier and more confident. In TIME, your life will improve.
The improved life you create for yourself must and will be enough for you.
What your wife does or believed about the new wonderful you, is far beyond your control.
Any efforts on your end to affect that, are for nothing. They are wasted energy.
That energy (the energy spent on worrying about her OR in trying to convince her of anything about you) is a waste of energy. Spend ALL of your energy on becoming the best man you can become. The reality of who you become, will suffice. It MUST suffice. If she believes you are a purple lesbian from Mars, you may not be able to change that belief but you cannot let it change the reality that you are a man with great qualities.
Her beliefs will NOT be based on reality, her "data" about you will be false.
That fact, that you become a better man and great husband (for someone) has to be enough for you. Because it is real. If you keep in touch with her family or other mutual friends, word will get back to her.
THAT^^ is all you ought to "do", b/c it happens to align with your goal of becoming the best man you can become. NOT to win her back but b/c you want to self actualize.
Is this^^ too fuzzy or too vague?
Maybe this effort will be for nothing, I don't know. I just think it is essential, but is it more of a topic when already piecing?
The effort to understand her now, and to "get" her and to make her understand (anything) that you love her, is ALL for nothing. Worse, it's actually counter productive.
It means your energy is "outward bound" instead of being about YOUR own growth and YOUR Changes. You'll keep checking in with her to "See if she knows that I feel X" and you'll keep on checking her temperature to see if "she knows Y and Z" and your energy will continue to hone in only on HER reactions to your behavior.
That is no way to live and it sure won't re-attract her to you. If it worked, it would have by now.
Go inward for the changes you need to make, and outward to GAL.
Get her off your radar screen...for now and the foreseeable future.
Turn the marriage over to God, & simply completely take charge of your own life.
When you become the best man you truly can be, and you know it,
then you can turn ALL of this over to God, let the cards fall where they will,
and be at peace.
From this day forward, Hold your head high and live your life well.
How does that^^sound as your game plan?
Thanks toots.
I know the last part was not good, because it's still circling. I just want to truly "get" and understand my W. That's the only base of a new R with her that would make thibgs possible at all. That's why I want to do sth in regards to get to know her love language better and how she really is.
Complex, you want a "game plan", correct? That means you need a GOAL, and a plan to achieve that goal. But the goal cannot be to reconcile with your wife.
Sounds sad and harsh, I know. But this^^ is ALL about you wanting something you cannot necessarily ever have. For now, I think you must forget her.
The goal FOR NOW must be exclusively about your own growth as a man. Becoming the best man you can become. DEFINE that in specific terms you understand.
Get some "mantras" or inspiring quotes for yourself, and SAY them out loud to yourself several times a day.
Turn your marriage over to God, to free yourself to just work on YOU.
Behave in healthy confident ways and eventually, you will FEEL healthier and more confident. In TIME, your life will improve.
The improved life you create for yourself must and will be enough for you.
What your wife does or believed about the new wonderful you, is far beyond your control.
Any efforts on your end to affect that, are for nothing. They are wasted energy.
That energy (the energy spent on worrying about her OR in trying to convince her of anything about you) is a waste of energy. Spend ALL of your energy on becoming the best man you can become. The reality of who you become, will suffice. It MUST suffice. If she believes you are a purple lesbian from Mars, you may not be able to change that belief but you cannot let it change the reality that you are a man with great qualities.
Her beliefs will NOT be based on reality, her "data" about you will be false.
That fact, that you become a better man and great husband (for someone) has to be enough for you. Because it is real. If you keep in touch with her family or other mutual friends, word will get back to her.
THAT^^ is all you ought to "do", b/c it happens to align with your goal of becoming the best man you can become. NOT to win her back but b/c you want to self actualize.
Is this^^ too fuzzy or too vague?
Maybe this effort will be for nothing, I don't know. I just think it is essential, but is it more of a topic when already piecing?
The effort to understand her now, and to "get" her and to make her understand (anything) that you love her, is ALL for nothing. Worse, it's actually counter productive.
It means your energy is "outward bound" instead of being about YOUR own growth and YOUR Changes. You'll keep checking in with her to "See if she knows that I feel X" and you'll keep on checking her temperature to see if "she knows Y and Z" and your energy will continue to hone in only on HER reactions to your behavior.
That is no way to live and it sure won't re-attract her to you. If it worked, it would have by now.
Go inward for the changes you need to make, and outward to GAL.
Get her off your radar screen...for now and the foreseeable future.
Turn the marriage over to God, & simply completely take charge of your own life.
When you become the best man you truly can be, and you know it,
then you can turn ALL of this over to God, let the cards fall where they will,
and be at peace.
From this day forward, Hold your head high and live your life well.
How does that^^sound as your game plan? I don't know about Complex, but I think that sounds like a pretty awesome game plan for almost any left-behind or betrayed spouse on the forum!!!
Awesome post, 25.
Starsky
Thanks 25yr. Your advice is always the best.
Turning things over to God is the hardest part. People can't let go of control. And will he even take care of it? You have to be strong, and that's what I will do.
I still fight with myself to be a better person every single day. I need to learn how to be less hard on myself and to love myself for who I am and be as good as I can. It's a lifetime challenge.
I detach myself more and more. I see a life without her. I have more and more of a hard time imagining one with her. But I'm not giving up hope.
I'm pretty tired these days. I work a lot and do so much plus I'm working out very hard. Maybe I'll take a full day off this week and just enjoy my life, the sun and the beach. Especially since today OM was all in my head. Probably because of the wild dreams I have due to medication I think.
Blogging:
Still staying busy and feeling OK. IC told me today that I made very good progress. She likes to see how much better I am doing every single time.
Meds suck a bit right now because I have crazy dreams since a few days. W and OM very present in my dreams last few days, don't sleep too well. But I can manage.
Interestingly W and I are very friendly with each other last couple of days (in the few moments we actually cross our paths). No serious talk but she's pretty warm, looking at me like she likes me or sth. Maybe just imagination but things are better. I let her live, no control whatsoever. Guess it makes her feel more comfortable. Doesn't seem like she's doing anything with OM or is dating, nor is she going out much at all. She just seems normal right now. I don't know what she's thinking right now. Enough of her tho.
Greencard process started. Got a letter. No idea how long it's gonna take. W still seems anxious about it.
I have no idea what is going to happen when I receive the greencard....but honestly neither do I care right now.
I don't want to think of the ifs at the moment. I feel more carefree about the future. I know what I want, what I don't want, what I'm doing, why I'm doing it and where I want to be. Feel like I have a good attitude right now, but I'm aware of that if things develop in an undesired way, I'll get my throwbacks. But what can I do.
Comments appreciated.
I'll start a new thread soon.
Few good days. Easter today was decent.
Spent all day with W basically. Went to family brunch in the morning. Then to lunch at her moms. We drove together. Lot of car time today too.
It was pretty easy going. Casual, easy conversations. Nothing serious or so.
The whole day was like nothing ever happened, fun conversations with the famil etc. but without any affections between me and W whatsoever. I guess I cannot expect anything from it, neither did I, which is good.
I also didn't get nervous or so. I cannot deny that W looked very attractive to me today. But what am I gonna do right?^^
It just feels like a bit of a limbo right now, waiting on my greencard. What's gonna happen after? I have NO clue, but also no expectations.
Right now I feel like I'm slacking a bit really working hard on myself. I just feel ok these days, do my thing, meet people, have fun, work. Just in a good spot right now, without the "push" of needing to work on myself. It's good but I still want to make improvements, read a book again or so...I feel a little selfish right now.
Hi Complex,
It sounds like you've had a few good days and handled them well. I think it's good to be around your W without openly displaying affection. It will begin to show you in a less needy and more independent way. Make sure you keep a lookout for any signs of improvement. Also, be prepared for a potential backlash. If your W had a good time with you recently, this may go against her recent perception of you and cause her to try and bring the old complex back. Don't let her. Keep up the good work!
Thanks for checking in alpha.
You seem to do pretty well too.
Thanks for the hint. So far no sign of W trying to provoke me or anything.
Not going to play that game anynore anyway.
She's more like "frien" now. Which I have to be careful about too. I do not want to be her friend. I mean yes I do but to me that won't be enough in the long term.
She might think it'll make thing easier for her. It gives her more peace of mind too.
She might not realize right now that I'm not done with this M. And if she realizes this again it might get tougher again. But I'm pretty much in agree-mode and feel confident. But we will see what challenges are coming when I get my greencard in the mail...
Of course, just after a few days of "peace and harmony", she acts annoyed this morning. Then texting me later on that she is still annoyed by our situation.
But she's glad we are getting along.
Either she is annoyed that we actually are treating each other better recently or she had another talk with a friend or maybe contact to OM again and got frustrated again that she just can't move on right now.
Whatever it is, I shouldn't care. But I do a bit again. Seeing all her family over easter was nice but showed me how much I love to have them in my life. It's scary to think they will be gone forever one day.
I put things in retrospect this morning and it made me sad.
I miss having a R, being loved. Reconciliation scenario seems very distant. I realized what would actually have to happen to get to a state where I would be happy too. It would take tremendous efforts and full commitment from W.
Just don't see that happening any time soon..
Glad I'm still young and that I'll have the ability to start over again. My hopes are still there tho.
Now that W is more friendly she might see the danger ..so it's probably good to pull back the friendly contact a bit from my side, so a) she doesn't start to think its persuasive and stays comfortable with it and b) she has some time to reflect herself.
I hope I'm still in the right place with my thoughts and actions.
I'm kind of getting anxious about the time my greencard will be in the mail. That's where everything will get real and she will start legal actions. I better be prepared ...
I also feel like I'm not doing any 180s recently. I just basically live my life the way it feels right to me. I'm less reactive. Feels like I'm not doing enough ..not sure
Be Strong. Maybe she's just missing the drama.
Thanks!!!! Didn't sound like it, more that she is "fearing" the drama..because I seem to like her still and I'm still very good with her family.
I cannot take any missteps DBing at this point and rather say nothing than starting to get back to bad habits.
She seems to still wanting out, no signs of second thought. It's just a waiting period. Fair enough, buys me some time to keep working on myself. Not sure if I'm fully prepared for the worst. I guess that's impossible anyway.
Hi Complex,
Just catching up on your sitch today. Do you think your wife has any credible fear that she's losing you?
Starsky
Excellent point. I don't think she really does. She probably even thinks we can be 'friends'.
What can I do?
Excellent point. I don't think she really does. She probably even thinks we can be 'friends'.
In 11 years and over 25,000 posts on this forum, I have yet to see a marriage come back from infidelity without the wayward spouse credibly fearing that they'd gone too far, and were losing (or had already lost) their betrayed spouse. Not long-term, anyway (I've seen some false reconciliations that didn't "stick").
Starsky
What else can I do Starsky to show her she's lost me?
I don't look back - we are in D proceedings- she had moved out- I do known thing with me and kids - travel, take trips, all of which I would have never done before.
I think she knows she's gone too far but really is too entrenched to back out now.
I guess I will just keep on keeping on - trying to build a better me . If she notices it not , if she thinks she's really lost me or not.
Is this right?
What else can I do Starsky to show her she's lost me?
I don't look back - we are in D proceedings- she had moved out- I do known thing with me and kids - travel, take trips, all of which I would have never done before.
I think she knows she's gone too far but really is too entrenched to back out now.
I guess I will just keep on keeping on - trying to build a better me . If she notices it not , if she thinks she's really lost me or not.
Is this right?
Ignore her. Don't worry about what she thinks. I wouldn't go out of my way to make sure she knows, because that is trying to get her attention.