I'm moving boards:
Quick resume:
BD around 6 months ago. Wife has feelings for someone who she almost dated, from work. I was crushed, cried and begged. She dropped contact. She tried to connect with me, didn't work at all obviously. In house separation. She is sure we shouldn't have gotten married, it was too fast. She was sincere but it didn't work out for her.
Today:
I found out she has a strong EA with him since a while. Not physical, read through over a month of text messages. She confessed she is in love with him. I'm crushed.
I didn't go crazy on her, of course I was mad for lying and disrespecting me but I walked away from discussion to avoid sth I will regret later.
First question: What are the first steps, what should I do? Should I actually confront OM with it (and if so how?)???
FYI. W and OM are supposedly friends since a longer time before marriage. They never dated but liked each other. He seems to be a nicer guy but definitely flirts heavy with my wife and disrespects our marriage to a certain extend.
I am very close to tell him to respect my marriage and our problems and to back off. I am not sure if that would do any good.
Here my old thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2517929#Post2517929
Why would you expect a dishonorable man -- a PREDATOR -- to do the honorable thing?
Don't confront him. Confront your WIFE.
Starsky
Why would you expect a dishonorable man -- a PREDATOR -- to do the honorable thing?
Don't confront him. Confront your WIFE.
Starsky
I did. She tells me she can NOT change her feelings and that there is no way. She is so stubborn. And that even if she cut contact with him our marriage would be over.
So what can I expect now? Nothing probably. I wouldn't even be surprised if their relationship will become stronger now and become physical at some point.
Should I actually ask her to cut contact?
You can't tell her what do, you can only tell her what YOUR boundaries are. Have you told her that you are unwilling to live in an open marriage? ARE you unwilling to live in an open marriage?
I see, it's about ME. I am very unwilling to do that. I do not want this. But what is the solution?
What defines an open marriage and what is a healthy boundary?
FYI my situation is pretty bad since I can hardly support myself since I built my life and work life here from scratch after moving from Germany.
Sorry for all the questions, I ordered DR book but it won't be here until Wednesday and I have an appointment at a therapist, but not before next Monday.
My whole body is in pain...
I don't know what to tell you on this. If my experience is any guide, you're in for a lot of pain until you begin to digest it. Personally, it woke me about at night for close to two months and now, getting to four months, I start to feel more indifferent about it. It appears to be a question of personality. Some people digest it faster than others. Some people obsess and get angry, others very sad. Some obsess about certain parts of the A (emotions, sex, kids, happiness). So don't look at others for the kind of reaction you should have, just feel what you're going through, but don't let it absorb you entirely. This is your challenge.
Feel free to describe here how you feel, and how you process these emotions. Find an outlet. Make sure you don't end up blurting out the wrong stuff to your W.
By the way, there's a section about infidelity towards the end of DR.
I'm glad you have Starsky309 engaged. He's one of the experts on OM and confrontations.
Thanks Mozza. I saw your post in the other thread too. I replied there:
Book is on the way.
I feel in a way I can hardly describe. She lied to me all the way and justifies her actions through that our marriage failed already, so it is fine to do whatever. She only didn't get physical because we are still officially married.
"My stomach hurts, my life basically came to complete stop. I don't see a future. I have suicide thoughts, but I am not going to do that, I have too much responsibility for the people that love me and maybe I have another life to live or maybe my marriage has another chance, but it is far far away. All hope got crushed. The messages are going through my mind. What he said, calling her "gorgeous" and how they were bonding. Then she calls him a good guy, you got to be kidding...
I am in the deepest whole ever...I just want to skip the next few weeks and months..."
An open marriage is three people, and you tolerating it. Obviously 95%+ will SAY they won't put up with this,,with their words, but their ACTIONS say otherwise.
You need to think long and hard about this, because I assure you, she IS testing you!
Starsky
An open marriage is three people, and you tolerating it. Obviously 95%+ will SAY they won't put up with this,,with their words, but their ACTIONS say otherwise.
You need to think long and hard about this, because I assure you, she IS testing you!
Starsky
OK I understand.
So they aren't physical. I told her I am not tolerating what is going on and I won't tolerate OM and that she crossed the line.
Her response was that our marriage doesn't exist anyway. I told her for me it does, but I won't be in her way. With or without OM she doesn't want the marriage anymore.
I did not tell her to quit the relationship but that I cannot life with this situation and rather risk getting thrown out of the country (my greencard renewal is due soon) than putting up with this.
And since I said it I will have to do it. There is no way back. But I don't know if that was a smart move. I will lose a lot of time on saving the M. We will see how this is going to play out for me. Oh Jesus...help me
Thanks you so much Starsky for your help!
Complex,
My W said the same thing about our M last summer. "We are S in my mind and in my Heart". I told her, like you did, I am still M and will continue to be until the papers are signed. Things haven't gotten better since that time.
I used all that time to work on myself. It has helped me.
One question for you What do you mean when you say " I will lose a lot of time on saving the M"?
stay strong.
One question for you What do you mean when you say " I will lose a lot of time on saving the M"?
Well if I insist on my boundaries I jeopardize my green-card, and the D will take place much faster than anticipated. But I cannot accept what is going on. It's him or me. But maybe that's too much of black and white thinking!?
Complex,
I may be misunderstanding here But because you have boundaries doesn't mean it has to speed up the D process.
Boundaries are meant to protect you not ensure a quick end to the M.
If the affair is a deal breaker for you that is one thing but if it isn't slow down and don't think of it as him or me.
Obviously there can't be three in a marriage. If you want to stand for your M do it.
Once you read DR some of these things will become clearer to you.
Problem is they are friends for 6 years and she always had feelings for him, until she met me, then they went away...until they came back. Nothing ever happened because he is married to his job and never asked her out.
This is the scary part because she will never forget him as long as they work together and she will always think she missed out on something.
I told her I'm not sad and mad BECAUSE we are close to getting a divorce, but HOW!! And that she should get her a** over the thoughts that she is hurting me and therefore hiding the truth and lying to me. And that she pretty much f'd it completely up and the way everything happened was ridiculous and even if there is no real relationship anymore and it wasn't meant to be it's a marriage and that will be worked out together, even if it is going down.
I went through so much change already but she doesn't see anything but herself without me. My gut tells me we don't have much of a chance and that it's definitely over.
I understand she was afraid of hurting me, but when she dropped the bomb it was over already. THATS whats so painful. That we never even had a chance to figure things out together, even if that would've lead to the end. The guy in the picture just completely ruined everything and I don't see a solution to that.
I guess I shouldn't even have told her all of this. I am just so mad. And helpless. She is determined. And I tell you..she is a strong woman and chances she is going to change her mind are very, VERY slim.
Another problem: I don't even know if I like who I became. I was a Mr.Niceguy. And I was proud of it. I had a big heart and never ever intended to play ANY games, whatsoever. Just being myself, with a lot of love to give. Now I feel like I am more grumpy, less loving...just less myself. I also always thought high of myself, now I look as myself as a failure. Man I am depressed. Can't wait for the therapy session... :(((
Complex - Are you also reading other people's sitches? What you're going through is, unfortunately, very common around here. Unfortunately, you seem to be making a lot of the basic mistakes, like ultimatums you can't enforce, rushing a divorce that you don't want, etc. Make sure that you go around and read the advice of vets on other threads and you'll learn a lot about how to deal with your situation. (I'm not a vet, by the way)
At this stage, I think you could benefit from that of Card29 and MCS.
After today's ordeal, do yourself a favor and don't count on it. I'll copy you what I just wrote to MCS.
Also, here's a revelation gathered from everyone's threads around here: WAS lie about A and OP. Don't ever, ever expect the truth. I'm serious: you will not get it. Don't ask her a question about OM. Don't hope to gather info from her. This is one of the things I learnt in the last four months. Even though my W lied about her A five years ago, I still believed I could get the truth from her in these crucial moments of our R. Nope. Look at Card29, vasapro, Complex... In the last few days or weeks, they finally uncovered months of lies. It's just how it works with an A. It's not about you, not even your W.
Something else to consider: Adopt a delay after you learn something new and before you make any decision. Some have a 30-day rule. What you learnt (EA) and what's at stake (M) are pretty big. So it's not about rushing things. Learn to be patient and sit on it for a little while, so that you see how you process the news.
I guess I shouldn't even have told her all of this. I am just so mad. And helpless. She is determined. And I tell you..she is a strong woman and chances she is going to change her mind are very, VERY slim.
Did she marry you? Did she change her mind? There you go. She does change her mind. Try to calm down tonight. I know your world is upside down at the moment, but things will evolve over the next few days and even more over the next few weeks and months. A lot of us have been cheated on and we've had your reaction initially, but now we're calmer, more clear minded about it and we have a better idea of what we can and can't accept to restore our M. Give yourself time.
Thanks Mozza, I'll be reading into some vets threads and also read the book once it gets here.
I am already regretting that I set the boundary that is going to have very bad influence on my life. But it is something she will again see as big weakness, that I say something and then I won't do it.
I will be gone for work over the next couple of weekends. Being away is so painful, I feel so powerless. But like you said it is very common in here, my feelings are fresh but maybe I shouldn't let myself down so much.
But the fact that it's all happening at her work which she isn't going to leave anytime soon is killing me. How in the world are you gonna get the EA out of her head if she sees him on a regular basis.
And how should I actually deal with her when we see each other? I am just plainly mad that she lied to me and the trust is completely gone.
But the fact that it's all happening at her work which she isn't going to leave anytime soon is killing me. How in the world are you gonna get the EA out of her head if she sees him on a regular basis.
And how should I actually deal with her when we see each other? I am just plainly mad that she lied to me and the trust is completely gone.
So you're saying that they work together, that you are often away, that your trust is gone... and that you believe her when she says it isn't physical? I don't know what's going on, but I observe many signs that you should prepare yourself for the worst immediately.
By the way, part of my advice to you comes from the
reaction of 25yearsmlc here when my W confirmed her OM to me by email. It might be instructive for you to read it, as it is advice from the vets on a similar situation.
The text message clearly didn't imply that they met. I read through way over a month worth of text. All work related flirt stuff. Pretty heavy flirting to me and they were even talking about me, he knows she wants a divorce, but there was no sign of that they met. I'm sure I would've found that since she was so stupid to leave her phone after that discussion we had.
I'm almost positive that it's only EA. But ya, I wouldn't be suprised obviously. She went to a council meeting at work tonight and told me after she will be at her friends place to watch the bachelor.
I went ahead and drove by her house and her car was indeed there.
If there's anything going on she probably will be even more cautious now.
I don't want to play detective now but I'll keep my eyes open.
I rather focus on DB and myself.
Can't express how much I appreciate your help.
I'll try to give some back in this forum for all the help I got so far!
Well if I insist on my boundaries I jeopardize my green-card, and the D will take place much faster than anticipated. But I cannot accept what is going on. It's him or me. But maybe that's too much of black and white thinking!?
Well, one's basic, two or three or four CORE BOUNDARIES OF PERSONAL INTEGRITY *should* be black and white. That's pretty much the definition of core boundaries.
Still, you cannot control the other person -- only how YOU will react to them, and what you will accept (and not accept). That's the difference between BOUNDARIES and ULTIMATUMS.
Starsky
There was a wise poster here named Jayne who said it better than I'd ever seen it said, and so I saved it in my personal archives (change "him" to "her" as needed for one's sitch):
Jayne, on “boundaries”:
Think about boundaries like this:
Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, because boundaries are about drawing "circles" around *you* and determining what you will and won't allow inside that circle.
Your WxH can do whatever he wants OUTSIDE that circle. You are not telling him what to do.
But you will only let into that circle people who treat you with respect.
He's free to go on treating you with disrespect, but you won't know about it because he'll be outside your circle. He's free to go on and draw his own boundaries of no expectations and no responsibilities, outside your circle.
He can do WHATEVER he wants. He's a free person, free to make WHATEVER choices he wants.
BUT SO ARE YOU, and you are free to choose who to allow within your circle.
That's all. Not about trying to control him at all. Tell him he's totally free. He has the WHOLE WORLD, outside your circle, to go and do whatever he wants.
If he's saying you have to let him into your circle no matter what, then THAT is about HIM controlling YOU.
That's a good one.
She came back yesterday night and said sorry over and over again. I see the guilt in her eyes. But I feel like she won't stop the contact to OM. I wonder if it will change tho.
She assures me that all this is between me and her..but we all know better.
I'm close to a breakdown this morning and I don't know how to get the energy to continue with my life and show the strength I need to if I want to continue to DB.
I guess time will heal and get things a little clearer to me.
I still don't know how to set my own boundaries. I don't know yet what I can accept and what I can not. And I don't want to tell her and it sounding like an ultimatum.
She also basically told me if I tell her family or if I talk to the OM she will divorce me asap. I wonder about that. It is so immature what she's doing and obviously she's afraid to admit what she's done to her family. She will be judged. But at some point I feel like someone else like me needs to tell her that she messed it up and did it the wrong way.
Something I learned is how ever I act, she is mirroring me. If I'm mad, she's mad back, if I'm understandig she is more open. But I also feel like that if I act stable and understanding it's just comforting her to make her feel better about EA and D. But I guess that's a very important part about DBing.
Just to summarize the situation to make it clear and also state why my hopes are so slim:
- Wife completely convinced we shouldn't have gotten married. We had a purely romantic love, no foundation and lacking connection.
- OM at work (successful doctor) - they see each other every week.
- She told me she loves him - he is clearly playing along and they even claimed to have an 'unfulfilled complicated relationship' (saw texts)
- W knows OM for 6 years, they have been friends and she always had feelings for him (except of the time when I came into her life, for 1-2 years)
- W does not want to work on M at all, it's over for her (she was at a point 5 months ago where she tried, but by herself, no outside help, no team work - while I was just very challenged and not clear minded - then she let herself go with the emotions to OM)
Complex, after you read DB or DR, pick up the book "Boundaries," by Townsend & Townsend. It's widely considered THE definitive book on the subject, and I think it will help you.
btw, what your wife is telling you about talking to family or OM is purely SCRIPT -- they ALL say that. While exposure is against DB teaching, I certainly wouldn't LIE to anyone about what she's doing, and I would also tell her "I have decided that I will no longer lie to cover up your affair," even if you don't end up telling a soul.
Any time she threatens divorce, calmly tell her "Yes, I've heard you, multiple times. Do what you feel you need to do, but please stop talking about it as it's immature and disrespectful and I don't want to hear it."
Starsky
Just to summarize the situation to make it clear and also state why my hopes are so slim:
- Wife completely convinced we shouldn't have gotten married. We had a purely romantic love, no foundation and lacking connection.
- OM at work (successful doctor) - they see each other every week.
- She told me she loves him - he is clearly playing along and they even claimed to have an 'unfulfilled complicated relationship' (saw texts)
- W knows OM for 6 years, they have been friends and she always had feelings for him (except of the time when I came into her life, for 1-2 years)
- W does not want to work on M at all, it's over for her (she was at a point 5 months ago where she tried, but by herself, no outside help, no team work - while I was just very challenged and not clear minded - then she let herself go with the emotions to OM)
Complex, FEELINGS take months to return, up to as much as two or three years to FULLY return. But the DECISION to work on the marriage, unencumbered by any third party (her OM) -- is just that: a DECISION. Your position should be "Look, I understand that our marriage took a long time to get to where it is, but I'm not willing to work at it or even TALK about it as long as you unilaterally decided to bring a third person into it by having an affair. End your contact with this man, and come back and work on our marriage with me and I think you'll find that I am more than willing to work on any and all issues, including my own."
The longer you remain in the current state -- LIMBO -- the more you're condoning her affair, morally and even legally.
Starsky
Just to summarize the situation to make it clear and also state why my hopes are so slim:
I know the urge to calculate the odds. I do it too. But what you've listed there is not very definitive, nor even impressive by DB standards. What do you think that people who reconciled have gone through? They've been told and have seen much worse than what you describe. Think restraining orders, custody fights, divorce papers signed, living with OM, etc.
You have to keep your cool now, at least on the surface. Of course, you will struggle and we're all encouraging you to process these emotions. But also keep a little perspective. Know also that the human brain is wired to look for the problems, the negative (survival instinct), so what your brain tells you is "realistic" is in fat "pessimistic". Some people are wired more to be pessimistic, it appears, so try keeping it in check if you can.
This is your personal crisis, so it appears huge to you, and rightly so. But I hope that you'll find strength on these boards by seeing that many people have gone through what you're living. Yes, it gets better, but it will likely get worse before. Prepare yourself and believe in tomorrow.
Complex,
Wise, wise words from Mozza. Do yourself a favor and look up "The Stockdale Paradox." It's a phenomenal life attitude that helps bridge the gap between optimism and yet the brutal reality of your current situation.
Starsky
Thank you Starsky and Mozza. Best two replies I ever got here.
I'm very thankful for your help.
Starsky: I like the first part what you suggested to say. But about saying "leave OM come back to me and work on our marriage" the timing right now would be completely off. She would think I'm nuts. We agreed on separation and I told her I'm not going to be in her way. After all the mistakes I've done she just plainly thinks all I want is her back and I'd do everything to do so. I don't know how to get that out of her head. It'll take time and I guess actions should speak louder than words.
I do agree on setting the boundary of no D or whatsoever talking as long as OM is in the picture. It's betwen her and me. Right now she is just completely over it, burying herself in sense of guilt and that all is her mistake.
Another concern of mine that I can't wrap my mind around is that we are only married 2 years, no kids. So opting out seems easier than for some other ppl married 10+ years and children..or am I wrong?
Another concern of mine that I can't wrap my mind around is that we are only married 2 years, no kids. So opting out seems easier than for some other ppl married 10+ years and children..or am I wrong?
OH, I think it's infinitely easier (or at least simpler?); most of us, if we hadn't had kids, would have probably done things anywhere from a little bit differently to WAY differently. I know I would have.
If I were in your shoes, I'd simply move on, learn to improve my own life, and hope to reconnect with my wife someday IF she "did the work" (went thru the necessary introspection to figure out why she would respond to marital challenges with the destructive and selfish decision to have an affair, and then lie about it). But that's just me.
Starsky
Thank you Starsky and Mozza. Best two replies I ever got here.
I'm very thankful for your help.
Starsky: I like the first part what you suggested to say. But about saying "leave OM come back to me and work on our marriage" the timing right now would be completely off. She would think I'm nuts. We agreed on separation and I told her I'm not going to be in her way.
I know, and there's a reason why I said it should be your "position" and I wasn't suggesting that part of my post as a suggested SCRIPT to you to use right now.
Starsky wise words. Hard to hear the truth because it's hard and I wish it was that easy just to quit my feelings.
Maybe I take the whole marriage thing too serious. It's just a formal paper after all. But I became a believer, I might actually have found to God through all this. And I was a big atheist.
Maybe she would be happier with the OM, who knows. But I cannot give up yet.
Maybe it's stupid to hang on...
But the big difference between a relationship and a marriage is this: responsibility.
You can hurt someone and opt out in a relationship. It's still going to be very hurtful. But the married person has to try until there is no option anymore. And in my case that means she told me when it was too late, she never seeked help, she just figured it out by herself, no perspective, me not involved. Not mature, not fair, not 'marriage'. So it never actually really existed probably.
That's what scares me ..
There's a difference between "letting go" and "giving UP."
Got it..
I see I have a lot to learn.
W just told me that the confrontation yesterday got her back to reality and that she is sorry.
All I 'answered' is she should stop to base her actions on if it's going to hurt me, stop lying and be truthful, even if it hurts and that I cannot accept lying and how she handled things.
Then I just shut up.
Can't wait for the book to get here tomorrow. I'll also check out the other recommendations.
Lesson of today: knowing the truth helps more than it hurts.
And in my case that means she told me when it was too late, she never seeked help, she just figured it out by herself, no perspective, me not involved. Not mature, not fair, not 'marriage'. So it never actually really existed probably.
That's what scares me ..
It's not "in your case". This is how A and S work. Find a single case around here of people who were kindly dumped, with lots of warning? You are married, you have ups and downs, and one day, it reaches the limit for one of the two parties. In almost every case, the limit is different for the two parties. Your W reached her limit before you reached yours. That she didn't warn you, especially now that you know there's an OM, is standard practice.
My W and I had a "S protocol" all figured out. We had talked about it when friends of ours separated. We promised each other that we'd never leave overnight based on a unilateral decision. Yet, this is exactly what she's done. The exact same thing. Get that: The day W came to get the rest of her stuff, she read aloud to me an email from one of such friend saying to W that she regretted her rash decision to D. My W had 'opposed' that D. Yet, she was doing the same thing at that very minute. O_O
In the five days before ILYBINILWY, we hosted a divorced friend of my W (now single and sleeping around a lot). They went out for fun activities, coffee and drinks while I worked and took care of the kids. Guess what they talked about during that time? Let's see: my W came back some of those days saying "My friend thinks you're not good enough for me" and "My friend said her D was a liberation and how she found her true self". Three days later, she was leaving me "to find her true self". See: she was talking about us with her and and when she sat down with me, it was to announce her decision. Like you.
Hoping that a S will take place in a reasonable manner is like hoping that car accidents will follow an agreed upon protocol between the parties. Or that illness will only strike those who deserve it. You can only do your best every day and hope it won't happen. There are ways to reduce the risk, but it can happen to anyone and it's almost always a surprise.
I'm telling you all of this in case it also provides you some comfort. A separation is very hurtful for the ego. In a way, it's good that you review what you've done wrong and what you can do better. You need to show W that you've learnt the lessons or at least to be ready for your next R. But know at the same time that there's a script, that infatuated people, even when married, do not behave like married people. It's chemicals and all. You need to detach and see her like a sick person who's not herself. Don't expect honesty ever, even if you asked for it. This is for married, faithful people. Don't take it personally. You're in a sitch with a WAW that has an A. The rules have changed. You need to adapt to survive.
And in my case that means she told me when it was too late, she never seeked help, she just figured it out by herself, no perspective, me not involved. Not mature, not fair, not 'marriage'. So it never actually really existed probably.
That's what scares me ..
It's not "in your case". This is how A and S work. Find a single case around here of people who were kindly dumped, with lots of warning? You are married, you have ups and downs, and one day, it reaches the limit for one of the two parties. In almost every case, the limit is different for the two parties. Your W reached her limit before you reached yours. That she didn't warn you, especially now that you know there's an OM, is standard practice.
My W and I had a "S protocol" all figured out. We had talked about it when friends of ours separated. We promised each other that we'd never leave overnight based on a unilateral decision. Yet, this is exactly what she's done. The exact same thing. Get that: The day W came to get the rest of her stuff, she read aloud to me an email from one of such friend saying to W that she regretted her rash decision to D. My W had 'opposed' that D. Yet, she was doing the same thing at that very minute. O_O
In the five days before ILYBINILWY, we hosted a divorced friend of my W (now single and sleeping around a lot). They went out for fun activities, coffee and drinks while I worked and took care of the kids. Guess what they talked about during that time? Let's see: my W came back some of those days saying "My friend thinks you're not good enough for me" and "My friend said her D was a liberation and how she found her true self". Three days later, she was leaving me "to find her true self". See: she was talking about us with her and and when she sat down with me, it was to announce her decision. Like you.
Hoping that a S will take place in a reasonable manner is like hoping that car accidents will follow an agreed upon protocol between the parties. Or that illness will only strike those who deserve it. You can only do your best every day and hope it won't happen. There are ways to reduce the risk, but it can happen to anyone and it's almost always a surprise.
I'm telling you all of this in case it also provides you some comfort. A separation is very hurtful for the ego. In a way, it's good that you review what you've done wrong and what you can do better. You need to show W that you've learnt the lessons or at least to be ready for your next R. But know at the same time that there's a script, that infatuated people, even when married, do not behave like married people. It's chemicals and all. You need to detach and see her like a sick person who's not herself. Don't expect honesty ever, even if you asked for it. This is for married, faithful people. Don't take it personally. You're in a sitch with a WAW that has an A. The rules have changed. You need to adapt to survive.
Starsky
Mozza, apparently you have seen the movie, AND read the book.
Complex, for what it's worth, this is all standard stuff. Not that that makes it any easier, but just so you know, WE GET IT. We really do understand, and you can trust that the advice you get here is relevant.
Another eye opener. I don't know what I'd do without this forum.
I like the comparison of the treating W like a "sick" person, who came off the right path. And yeah if she would've told me earlier I probably would still landed here. Because initially we don't know how to react and do it right from the start.
Reading through some of the other threads I guess I can even call myself happy finding myself in a 'standard' situation. There are some pretty bad cases out there.
I don't want to look back and think what a fool I was. I should rather get over myself and do things right today. But I thing we are humans and its a human right to mourn before we pull ourselves up again.
In the five days before ILYBINILWY, we hosted a divorced friend of my W (now single and sleeping around a lot). They went out for fun activities, coffee and drinks while I worked and took care of the kids. Guess what they talked about during that time? Let's see: my W came back some of those days saying "My friend thinks you're not good enough for me" and "My friend said her D was a liberation and how she found her true self". Three days later, she was leaving me "to find her true self". See: she was talking about us with her and and when she sat down with me, it was to announce her decision. Like you.
Very strong similarities Mozza. Actually my W best friend is divorced.
I heard the sentence "some people are not meant for each other, blabla" many times. That's what her D friend told her about her Ex H. Later I found out that he was abusing her. Which I didn't but if I draw a picture everything makes sense.
D friend also knows everything and supports her obviously. It's ridiculous how outsiders influence other people contra their marriage. It's non of their business. But WAWs obviously search for confirmation of their new feelings.
I told me wife I don't tolerate/accept that she put other people before our marriage and me. I once read that you should actually put your marriage before everything, even your kids. Another healthy boundary. If people put other things or people before their own marriage they came off the path already.
In the five days before ILYBINILWY, we hosted a divorced friend of my W (now single and sleeping around a lot). They went out for fun activities, coffee and drinks while I worked and took care of the kids. Guess what they talked about during that time? Let's see: my W came back some of those days saying "My friend thinks you're not good enough for me" and "My friend said her D was a liberation and how she found her true self". Three days later, she was leaving me "to find her true self". See: she was talking about us with her and and when she sat down with me, it was to announce her decision. Like you.
Very strong similarities Mozza. Actually my W best friend is divorced.
I heard the sentence "some people are not meant for each other, blabla" many times. That's what her D friend told her about her Ex H. Later I found out that he was abusing her. Which I didn't but if I draw a picture everything makes sense.
D friend also knows everything and supports her obviously. It's ridiculous how outsiders influence other people contra their marriage. It's non of their business. But WAWs obviously search for confirmation of their new feelings.
I told me wife I don't tolerate/accept that she put other people before our marriage and me. I once read that you should actually put your marriage before everything, even your kids. Another healthy boundary. If people put other things or people before their own marriage they came off the path already.
People use other peoples viewpoints to justify their decisions.
What they need to weigh in account is they will end up in the same place as that person if they listen. So if they are listening to cheaters, they will likely end up a cheater. If they listen to people who treat their partners badly, they will likely take on some of those traits.
Another eye opener. I don't know what I'd do without this forum.
I like the comparison of the treating W like a "sick" person, who came off the right path. And yeah if she would've told me earlier I probably would still landed here. Because initially we don't know how to react and do it right from the start.
Reading through some of the other threads I guess I can even call myself happy finding myself in a 'standard' situation. There are some pretty bad cases out there.
I don't want to look back and think what a fool I was. I should rather get over myself and do things right today. But I thing we are humans and its a human right to mourn before we pull ourselves up again.
In this time get stronger and spend more time on yourself and what you want. Also dress better and smell good. Take better care of all of your stuff. Do some things you like.
A lot of times if they are going to cheat they are going to cheat. Many of these cheaters got "attracted" by the "world", so even if you were perfect in marriage, the wildness of the world stirred them.
Counter this in the future by always being attractive to the world. Do some wordly things with and without the wife or gf. Always be a guy.
That's all we can do and they still can cheat. You can also be careful about who you select if you are doing long term relations in the future. Pick someone with peers who are not cheating, perhaps out of stable and loving family structures where the dad/bf is treated how you would like to be.
I'm moving boards:
Quick resume:
BD around 6 months ago. Wife has feelings for someone who she almost dated, from work. I was crushed, cried and begged. She dropped contact. She tried to connect with me, didn't work at all obviously. In house separation. She is sure we shouldn't have gotten married, it was too fast. She was sincere but it didn't work out for her.
Are you sure that her rationalization hamster didn't come up with this, that you guys shouldn't have gotten married, because she fell in love with new guy? Perhaps rationalization hamster came up with this excuse to make things make sense.
Today:
I found out she has a strong EA with him since a while. Not physical, read through over a month of text messages. She confessed she is in love with him. I'm crushed.
I didn't go crazy on her, of course I was mad for lying and disrespecting me but I walked away from discussion to avoid sth I will regret later.
Good man. You can also use voice activated recorders hidden in the car. Usually when they are cheating they have support systems ( other people ) who know about it and enable their choices.
"In love" follows a couple of scripts just like affairs. Perhaps her guy has other women. Perhaps he is married. Perhaps he is a known player. This info could help you.
First question: What are the first steps, what should I do? Should I actually confront OM with it (and if so how?)???
This is up to you. I think before you confront OM you would obtain more information. I'm not even sure you confront him. Does he work in the same place or nearby to you? Do you know him? Does he know she is married?
One of the strategies in this situation is to find out information on the OM. If he is carrying on in the job site location or is married, you blow him up there.
One of our guys on another board had a successfully confrontation where he knocked the OM out. Wife tried to defend OM, and she got slapped. Our poster who did what all husbands want to do broke his hand and had to come out of pocket on some money for it. OM did not press charges.
Find out if the wife is carrying on in or around the house. If this is the case you need to either put her out if it is legal or get a restraining order on the OM so it cannot happen around the residence.
Learn where they are in their "fall in love" script. Depending on where they are the best thing you might do is to let him have her. A lot of OM's didn't sign up to support your wife, they just wanted the sex and company...
Affair partners get a lot more clarity about each other once the cheated on party hands in their cards and steps away from the table.
Weird thing just happened that's jusf showing me WAWs confusion.
First she pet my legs with her feet on the couch, then when she took off for work (nightshift) she snooped behind my back and gave me a kiss!?
What the hell is that supposed to mean?
I didn't really react to it. Probably at least gained some respect back. It's weird tho. I don't want to start hoping again. Phew.
It means she yanked, to see if you were still dutifully on the other end of her rope. You took a bit of a stand, and it threw her off her power equilibrium. She's trying to get it back.
Yep. She's temp-checking to make sure she still has you on a string. She needs you as Plan B in case things don't go well with OM.
Don't be Plan B.
Good work.
I have the urge to ask her what the purpose of that was. I don't know the proper DB response to this. Or should I just let it go?
Book is coming in tomorrow.
I'm not lying. It made me hope. But I don't want to be messed and played with. DB has to continue as if it never happened!
Can you go out for 60-90 minutes? Smelling good?
Thanks guys. Human psychology can be so simple. She has no idea what she's even doing. Just wonder if I should tell her to stop messing with me or just play it super cool and show her what I think of it by actions and let her start the conversation!? I like B better.
I will only be Plan A, or Plan 'doesn't exist'.
Can you go out for 60-90 minutes? Smelling good?
Ha. What do you mean? No it stinks.
It means to act mysterious. Get out of the house. ASAP if you can. Act like it was planned. Dress nice. Smell nice. Look like a million bucks and don't tell W where you're going. We don't care if you're just driving - or sitting in a park - for an hour. If W asks you where you're going, just smile and say, "Out with friends. I'll be back later."
Oh ha ok. I'll do that next time. Thanks for the tip.
She actually did that right when SHE left, for work. She's working nightshifts (nurse).
I never mentioned that. I also think the nightshift kind of killed her mojo this year. I could tell it's hard on her psych and body. Glad she's going back to day shift next week. Hope that'll also get her life back in line a bit more.
Thanks for your replys again guys.
It means to act mysterious. Get out of the house. ASAP if you can. Act like it was planned. Dress nice. Smell nice. Look like a million bucks and don't tell W where you're going. We don't care if you're just driving - or sitting in a park - for an hour. If W asks you where you're going, just smile and say, "Out with friends. I'll be back later."
Don't fool her. Actually go somewhere or participate in event(s) where you should look that nice.
So, back to the LIMBO,
I want to get out of the limbo asap. Book isn't here yet.
I understand and apply my position but I just don't have a script, I don't know what to say.
I do not accept to do any D or whatsoever talking unless OM is out of the picture, or at least NC (which is rather hard, they see each other once or twice a week at work). She basically has to tell him that they can't have any contact anymore.
And she has to be truthful about it and stop lying. How can I even trust her now?
I want this to be between us.
Of course her position is 'D either way' right now, with or without OM.
HOW do I tell her that without making an ultimatum to her??
She obv needs to want that. I need to transform Starkys suggestion of my position into words (without letting her know that I actually want to save the marriage of course)
"Look, I understand that our marriage took a long time to get to where it is, but I'm not willing to work at it or even TALK about it as long as you unilaterally decided to bring a third person into it by having an affair. End your contact with this man, and come back and work on our marriage with me and I think you'll find that I am more than willing to work on any and all issues, including my own."
It feels like she doesn't want to take any responsibilty for her actions, she doesn't do D talk, whatsoever. No one in family knows yet. She doesn't face any consequences yet except of me starting to set boundaries.
She's not ready to hear that yet. Her position will be "Are you crazy? Who said anything about me wanting back in to the marriage??!"
You speak now with your ACTIONS. By pulling back; moving on. Be mysterious, busy, interesting.
I don't know what to say.
I do not accept to do any D or whatsoever talking
And she has to be truthful about it and stop lying.
HOW do I tell her that without making an ultimatum to her??
she doesn't do D talk, whatsoever.
This, right there, is your immediate problem. You want to talk. But you can't talk your way out of something your actions got you into.
You can't control her with words.You can't control her at all, but especially not with words. This is the one thing you need to understand at the moment. You will only speak with your actions. Have you read what Starsky309 and Train say? Be mysterious, go out, get a life, etc.
The way I see it, you have to send her the signal that you're confident she's making a big mistake and that your life is and will be more interesting anyway. This will make her curious. "Wait a second, why is it that he's not pursuing? I thought I was going for the more interesting option? What does he know that I don't?"
Also, I already told you that she won't be truthful. It's not between the two of you anymore. I'm sure it's a big shock to absorb. I remember sobbing and shaking when I realized that and my own W had to comfort me... Once you stop expecting the truth from her, you'll take a big step forward. Asking for something you won't get is making you look weak.
Another thing: stop hoping for fairness. Yes, she'll come out on top in the short term. You should see my WAW: new job (that I help her get), new younger hotter boyfriend, hot sex I'm sure, free of kids for grow-up activities half the time, no more old R, etc. But the rules of physics still apply to them. OM also has dirty socks, bad breath, boring Wednesdays, etc. It's life that will teach your WAW a lesson. If YOU teach your WAW a lesson, then you're the mean one. If life teaches her the lessons, then she'll know she was wrong. Bite your lips and be patient while life does the rest of the job.
Ok I can't get to old 'talking' habits.
So basically I killed the secret mojo of her EA by finding out. Told her she crossed the line and I won't accept a third person involved in our marriage/problems.
What if she just doesn't stop tho. She told me it got her back to reality and I think she has to feel some consequences now. Maybe I should move out. She should also inform her family. I feel like by just moving on I'm feeding her EA again because she thinks it's ok then. That's how she initially brought EA to the next step, after we decided together that we separate for real.
I probably just have to completely get over myself first. But she HAS to start facing some consequences here to start seeing what she's actually doing, or not?
Don't move out!! She can if she wants. The consequenses will come but we as LBH never know when.
I am presently still waiting for my W to feel consequenses and it has been 19 months.
She does not have to face consequences to anything. She's deep in a fog and can easily justify her actions to anyone. It is not about punishing her or even changing her. It is about becoming a man only a fool could leave and making you a better person. It is her journey and the more you try to influence it, the further she will run away.
The only thing you can control is yourself. Believe me, this was a HUGE issue for me. Took me a long time to learn that one.
If she continues the A the only thing you can really do is set boundaries for yourself. Learn how to set boundaries and practice it. It is a difficult skill to master. research it and learn from others mistakes.
Oh, and don't EVER move out. I went through in house seperation for 13 long weeks. If she wants to S, make her be the one to leave. Every single poster on this site will back me up on that one.
Good luck complex. Read peoples stories on hear and learn from them.
Ok, makes sense to stay.
We just had a talk. She kinda started it. I don't know if I messed up a bit. Her best friend (divorced) saw me on tinder and my W confronted me with it, saying its a double standard. I didn't even really use it, just wanted to mess around.
We somehow ended up talking about our marriage. She assured me OM is not the reason why she is leaving, but we all know better it played a big roll. She clearly stated she wants this to be a friendly divorce and be my friend even if I don't want to...same old. I told her things went very wrong, I agreed on we got married to fast. I also said a lot was my fault, that I completely lost myself and wasn't myself anymore. . But then I probably made a mistake telling her that S are always the same and never friendly, even if people tell each other they won't leave the other person out of the blue, that's just how it is. And also that people in marriages have high expectations, that people expect that a marriage is actively worked on if things go wrong. If they don't there will always be bitterness left behind.
She agreed and seemed to really get it and didn't say anything for half a minute and cried. I told her it's fine and that I'm moving on.
But I guess it was a mistake. In the end it'll just confirm her leaving is ok. I regret the discussion. I seemed nervous too, couldn't find words in the end..she probably doesn't believe me.
Man I screwed up ://// bad start in the day.
I am hanging on to her way too much still. When she's around I get nervous.
I love her like crazy still. I need to detach more big time. This is going to be harder than I ever thought. I don't know how to really get over myself. Huge throwback
Wonder if when I start 'dating' or at least play mysterious that it will make her justify getting closer to OM!?
You need to get the book DR and read it pronto. It will make so much sense once you do.
The first chapters are on this forum. If I knew how to create a link I would. Find this and read it.
You need to get the book DR and read it pronto. It will make so much sense once you do.
The first chapters are on this forum. If I knew how to create a link I would. Find this and read it.
Sitting on the couch waiting for the post man
Old fashioned Copy-paste from the browser works too!
Ok, makes sense to stay.
We just had a talk. She kinda started it. I don't know if I messed up a bit. Her best friend (divorced) saw me on tinder and my W confronted me with it, saying its a double standard. I didn't even really use it, just wanted to mess around.
We somehow ended up talking about our marriage. She assured me OM is not the reason why she is leaving, but we all know better it played a big roll. She clearly stated she wants this to be a friendly divorce and be my friend even if I don't want to...same old. I told her things went very wrong, I agreed on we got married to fast. I also said a lot was my fault, that I completely lost myself and wasn't myself anymore. . But then I probably made a mistake telling her that S are always the same and never friendly, even if people tell each other they won't leave the other person out of the blue, that's just how it is. And also that people in marriages have high expectations, that people expect that a marriage is actively worked on if things go wrong. If they don't there will always be bitterness left behind.
She agreed and seemed to really get it and didn't say anything for half a minute and cried. I told her it's fine and that I'm moving on.
But I guess it was a mistake. In the end it'll just confirm her leaving is ok. I regret the discussion. I seemed nervous too, couldn't find words in the end..she probably doesn't believe me.
Man I screwed up ://// bad start in the day.
I am hanging on to her way too much still. When she's around I get nervous.
I love her like crazy still. I need to detach more big time. This is going to be harder than I ever thought. I don't know how to really get over myself. Huge throwback
Wonder if when I start 'dating' or at least play mysterious that it will make her justify getting closer to OM!?
Sometimes in relationships you have to "pull back" and allow them to pursue. A guy had a problem with his wife, and he was always having to engage her and over time her interest declined.... She felt like he was always "taking" something. So he pulls back, does not beg, ask, initiate, grovel, etc. Does his own thing, and she comes to him.
Just pull back, you probably are done here, but you have to pull back into yourself anyway. You see how you got her interest with your tinder account? Some of that stuff works.
Just have fun with your life. Take care of yourself.
I also read Mozzas post multiple time to hammer it in my brain. NO MORE TALKING. I told myself that multiple times. And I ALWAYS catch myself wanting to talk. I was always like that tho. I HAVE TO MAKE A 180.
This is it. I'm mad at myself. But guess I'm human after all and real change is very difficult. I do steps baby steps. Not enough. I have to make big steps, and baby steps in my M might/will follow.
My security is on the line big time too. She's the provider, I'm on a greencard. Not much income, house debt, car debt, cheap health insurance through her job, I need to get out of this. I think I made a decision regarding a job. I'll go back to college and become a teacher. I always wanted that and I left college in Germany for her. I have a job with opportunities right now, helping an entrepreneur, I will continue to help him bc I am commited but I'll go get a degree now. Decision made.
Sry if I bother you with my life details. But I'm so mad at myself making all these mistakes. I slacked so hard. No freaking wonder my wife doesn't want me anymore.
I need to wake up!!!!!!!!!!
Here you go, Complex.
Link to first chapters Go to the main forum list. The third or fourth thing down is "Michele's Books and Tapes," I believe is the title. Click on that, and you'll find threads with the links.
You're making a lot of beginner's mistakes. You talk too much, you try to control her, you want her to face the consequences, you think you can "convince her", you focus on the OM, etc. Read the first chapters of DR, then read the rest of the book ASAP. Take it seriously: read it with pen and paper and follow the exercises. This is where I gathered the knowledge and strength to do this. If you don't, ask yourself if you're really suffering this much and are willing to put in the effort to DB.
We always say that no single exchange will ruin all your chances, but it's like a sports game: the mistakes add up and then the game is over. Don't become one of those who does the opposite of DB and then come here to confess, hoping it somewhat cancels out. It doesn't. Learn to DB properly.
When you discuss, when you argue with WAW, you give her power. You don't gain it. Imagine someone comes to tell you: "If you do X, I'll send my brother to beat you up." You do X. Are you more afraid if he says "Fine" and turns away, or if he starts arguing with you that you should really have not done X, that it was wrong, etc.?
It's nice that you're making plans to go back to college, but can you make plans to go out tonight for now? Start describing your actions to GAL, become a little mysterious, detach, etc.
Thanks Train, I'll check it out asap.
I'm not only mad at myself but at her too. She is completely playing down that she lied to me big time. She said she told me that there were feelings..that's how she dropped the bomb back then. And then she just "stretched" the truth. And that I think of things that aren't there. And she doesn't trust me that I won't tell her family, and if I do she will hate me forever and she thinks I'll just play "angel" with them and team up with them.
She knows she crossed the line but she doesn't feel that much guilt it feels like. Completely unreasonable and disrespectful again. And me idiot I'm hugging her saying its ok. It's NOT ok. I was weak for a moment.
All script?
She lying all along again. And I feel like I catered her. Now I want to reverse it. I find myself in the same damn loop all the time
Am I completely stupid or lacking self control?
Complex,
You can't stop her from lying; she's a grown woman. You can only stop her from lying to YOU, for example by putting your hand up, and saying "Stop it. We BOTH know you're lying to me right now, and it's incredibly disrespectful to me and to our marriage," and ending the conversation immediately.
Again, ultimatums vs. BOUNDARIES.
Starsky
I also ordered the boundaries book you suggested.
How many times in my life have I said to myself "I'll do it right this time"? Wayyyy too often. It's a problem. And I thought to myself I was never ever happier than being married to that woman and this time I will do it right. I didn't. Then our marriage failed, and I said the same thing to myself, it's so important to me and I have to DB right. Do I? No.
How am I ever going to get over myself and do a 180, once and for all?
Read through the first chapter/introduction here. Book should be here soon, can't wait. Guess that is what I am going to do all day/night long.
I read the book in like 3 days, then I went back and read it again. I refer back to it sometimes. In fact I need to do that in the near future.
I know you will find it helpful just like we all did.
Starsky, If you get some time could you pop in to my Thread again? I asked a question about something you posted on this thread. Thanks!!
Michelle has an excellent writing style and great perspective.
Although of course not all the things apply to my own marriage but I just finished the "Marriage Map" of Chapter 1 and I had to LAUGH!
Stage 1-3 were just like written like it was my own marriage.
Instant conclusion: If my W does not get to the understanding of the works of a marriage, how am I going to tell her? I JUST CAN'T - she needs to figure this out herself, while I can only be the "secret teacher" (by secret teacher I mean I can only act for myself and hope that it will somehow, one day get through and open her heart again)!
After being through half the book almost and also part of Chapter 10 there is a big question/reflection arising:
TIME LINE OF S:
Me and my wife went on a trial separation after BD (as suggested from her), it didn't last long, I begged etc. and she gave our marriage a 'chance' which wasn't really one because we did NOT AT ALL actively work on our marriage. She just tried to get her feelings sorted out with OM apparently.
She dropped contact to OM but her feelings didn't seem to go away. All supported by D friend.
I pushed her further away by not applying DB techniques, making mistakes, being still completely dependent from her.
Back then tho she had a decent amount of affection for me, I could tell. She was in the limbo.
Then we decided to call it quits, I agreed because I had more knowledge and knew I had to let it go. That opened the door for OM feelings. They started flirting, standard script, even talking about her marriage and me. As if she was just waiting for it.
I come back from vacation with a whole different attitude, being away helped a lot. Her EA very strong by then but I found out, it blew up. Now I am in the limbo^^
If I look at it I get why she turned more and more away from me although I did give her the space and I wasn't overly begging or so. I wasn't overly smart about everything but not terrible either.
NOW that I know OM was involved all along my WHOLE SIGHT changed.
ALL her actions make sense now. But I came to the understanding there was basically NOTHING I could've done, because I plainly didn't know how much OM was in the picture.
Quote WIFE:
If you love someone, let them go, if they don't come back they were never yours. If they do they can be happily ever after
How can I even believe ANYTHING she said along the S process???
What is W's thought process of doing what's she is doing and what she has done? It must be pure guilt!?
First DR made so much sense. No I am more confused than ever. I think I really need specific advice on my case and get some counseling. I wish I could afford to get some sessions with Michelle, she seems to be awesome
I really need hands on advice, so how does this look like:
I KNOW I HAVE TO
a) detach more
b) continue GAL
d) stop saying things that I say exactly the opposite way later on (might be a communication problem, since I am German, but she ALWAYS complained about it)
e) just shutting up more in general, less talking more action
f) stop controlling her
g) if I say something, follow through and be as clear as possible with what I say (very hard part on my side, always had problems to make myself very clear, I just think too much)
h) be positive at ALL TIMES (at least when she is around)
i) leave her alone with her thought for now, she has to process things herself too
Short term goals:
a) that she gets more curious about what I am doing and why I am in such a good state of mind
b) that she starts telling me about work again, she usually does all the time, she didn't in a few days
c) that she gains my trust back telling me things she wouldn't tell everyone
d) NO discussions about D or R or whatsoever for two weeks, and if so, only if SHE starts and no arguments, only positive thoughts, no convincing
Is it actually ok to let my W know that she lost a lot of respect and all trust or should I just let it go and not even mention it?
She wants to be my friend, but I trust my friends, so she can't be my friend.
I definitely found myself in the "last resort" category. But I guess pretty much everyone in here finds himself in there.
Have to continue reading, hope there's some more good readings about the 'hopeless' cases
C,
Why are you do hell-bent on TELLING your wife things? You've been advised multiple times about this, but you seem to not be listening.
ACTIONS, not WORDS. Grand Pronouncements don't work.
Starsky
Thanks for advising me.
I catch myself over and over. That's why I'll apply the 180 technique. Ill try to do the exact opposite of what I want to do (unless completely unreasonable) and try to track if it changes anything.
No more talking ..
The books specifically say do not believe a word you hear and only half what you see.
I am not sure how much time you have spent on this board but I will tell you this: Starsky knows what he is doing. Lean on him. Listen to him.
Scrape up all the loose change you can find and get a DB coaching session.
Bdub did you do telephone coaching? How many sessions?
How did it help you different than the book?
Thanks
I for sure need some help, I never was at the point where I couldnt get my life started again at all. I'm completely dysfunctional since Monday...
After being through half the book almost and also part of Chapter 10 there is a big question/reflection arising:
TIME LINE OF S:
Me and my wife went on a trial separation after BD (as suggested from her), it didn't last long, I begged etc. and she gave our marriage a 'chance' which wasn't really one because we did NOT AT ALL actively work on our marriage. She just tried to get her feelings sorted out with OM apparently.
She dropped contact to OM but her feelings didn't seem to go away. All supported by D friend.
I pushed her further away by not applying DB techniques, making mistakes, being still completely dependent from her.
Back then tho she had a decent amount of affection for me, I could tell. She was in the limbo.
Then we decided to call it quits, I agreed because I had more knowledge and knew I had to let it go. That opened the door for OM feelings. They started flirting, standard script, even talking about her marriage and me. As if she was just waiting for it.
I come back from vacation with a whole different attitude, being away helped a lot. Her EA very strong by then but I found out, it blew up. Now I am in the limbo^^
If I look at it I get why she turned more and more away from me although I did give her the space and I wasn't overly begging or so. I wasn't overly smart about everything but not terrible either.
NOW that I know OM was involved all along my WHOLE SIGHT changed.
ALL her actions make sense now. But I came to the understanding there was basically NOTHING I could've done, because I plainly didn't know how much OM was in the picture.
Quote WIFE:
If you love someone, let them go, if they don't come back they were never yours. If they do they can be happily ever after
How can I even believe ANYTHING she said along the S process???
What is W's thought process of doing what's she is doing and what she has done? It must be pure guilt!?
First DR made so much sense. No I am more confused than ever. I think I really need specific advice on my case and get some counseling. I wish I could afford to get some sessions with Michelle, she seems to be awesome
If this was just a "girlfriend". How would you survive if you where the fake boyfriend, you know was with her all the time, you support and makes sure she's ok. WHat if you where the fake boyfriend, but she had a nother boyfriend who got all the benefits? The one she bared her soul to, that she respected. He wasn't around all the time, but she was persuing him often. He might have even had other women...
But you were in the picture as old mr reliable. She knew she could always count on you. That you'd love her no matter what she did and it made her feel safe and secure while she played around with others.
How would you talk to someone like this other than leaving? What could you say? They looked into your face and lied for a very long time.
Would you try to impress this "girlfriend"? Would you do a whole bunch of things in attempt to catch her attention? Or would you leave after finding you were bamboozled?
Spend some time in the situation you are in now with things that will benefit you and only you. Perhaps it never was truly your wife. Setup your 180 so that she is causing you minimal distraction.
So I don't believe what she's saying anymore that's for sure. Big trust issues.
But I'm not sure how to act if I find out she lied to me again and again?
Should I even confront her at all? That would kind of work against my plan right now...!?
So I don't believe what she's saying anymore that's for sure. Big trust issues.
But I'm not sure how to act if I find out she lied to me again and again?
Should I even confront her at all? That would kind of work against my plan right now...!?
Why talk to her? You know she is a heavy liar. Imagine you found out a lady you where seeing is a heavy multi dater. What would you do if you kept deciding to deal with her? I dunno. If that was my choices, I would drop her, ignore her crap OR date other people myself.
Is it actually ok to let my W know that she lost a lot of respect and all trust or should I just let it go and not even mention it?
She wants to be my friend, but I trust my friends, so she can't be my friend.
I definitely found myself in the "last resort" category. But I guess pretty much everyone in here finds himself in there.
Have to continue reading, hope there's some more good readings about the 'hopeless' cases
I think you can lightly tell her, your friends don't lie to you and mislead you like she does. Actually people have done it and they moved out of the friends category.
If your lover/spouse cannot be your friend... It's in a bad position.
I think I completely blew it .....guess it's over and out
Got myself so angry that she's lying again that we got into a confrontation. ALL the stuff I told myself I won't do anymore I basically did. I even told her in the end I'll never be her friend - don't have friends that treat me like this. I am now leaving for work over the weekend. I was never that rattled. Monday I have an apt at the therapist. I'll buy 3 phone sessions here too.
This will be very very hard to fix. I blew all chances I had feels like.
I just want to get as far away as possible. She of course assured me there's zero zero chance and with How I acted I I basically let her know that she is completely right. And I don't see a way to fix what I did right now.
I asked her a last question, probably just to keep my hope going...if she had the best intentions marrying me and she said yes.
I agreed we weren't meant to be but basically left the conversation saying I'll always be bitter about how everything happened, how things went down and that I am incredibly from the bottom of my heart sorry that I was not able to be the man that she wanted/needed.
I was never that full of regrets.
I feel like the biggest idiot of all time. Nothing worked. I'm completely frustrated and mad at myself. Like many times before. I'm not able to do 180s ...
But I hit rock bottom. It can probably only go uphill from here.
I basically let everything out and messed it completely up.
I couldn't hold back.
I need to pray now.
Complex,
I have used the DB coach for 5 sessions I have one remaining and hoping I use it after I get some movement from my W back to the M.
It differs in the fact that your coach will be more specific to your particular sitch.
It is well worth it IMHO.
Complex, it sounds like you are carrying around the hope that if you say the right thing or show your W the way you see things that she will change or regret her choices. I've said things before too that didn't need said. In most cases if you stop to look at what you said afterwards, it was done to control her or change her mind.
To Starsky's point earlier. You don't need to share your perspective with her. This form of control won't work. You aren't forming a boundary when you say you can't be friends. You are saying something to cause hurt and regret. Am I wrong?
Complex, it sounds like you are carrying around the hope that if you say the right thing or show your W the way you see things that she will change or regret her choices. I've said things before too that didn't need said. In most cases if you stop to look at what you said afterwards, it was done to control her or change her mind.
To Starsky's point earlier. You don't need to share your perspective with her. This form of control won't work. You aren't forming a boundary when you say you can't be friends. You are saying something to cause hurt and regret. Am I wrong?
This is spot on. You can't even let her onto your perspective, because the rationalization hamster in her mind will prove it wrong.
Normally in these situations barring a near life ending circumstance, they will continue on the path of least resistance, and they will continue the affair, while keeping the marriage partner their as a plan B until they feel safe enough to finally jump over.
The only time they know it was a mistake ( which it usually is ) is well after the fact. That wife of yours is part of creation of the interaction and support from you.
Pull your support and interaction and she will have to get it from outside. If she gets it from outside, it will not be the same as what you where providing. She will be weaker/unsupported in some areas.
Over time she will notice. A lot of the cheaters take on very aggressive/risky habits that get them into trouble and set them back. As long as you are supporting, you circumvent this by supporting her.
Let her learn from the world. It will show her. Over 90% of relations started by affairs fail. As long as you are at the poker table, losing hand after hand because it's by design you feed both of them. Remove yourself from the table! They will get reality.
And maybe it is that she is just happier with the OM. If she is how could you have stopped it?
Guess you are right. At least I know all these things. And I am more 'observant' and can tell its not doing ANY good.
Its just so extremely hard to give up.
And I think that's what I have to do at this point. Just give up...
But at this point I know it'll just lead to friendship, if at all.
But I need to completely let it go, let go of all hopes too.
And I know a single incident isn't going to change but I had soooo many by now, that she is so far out of the window. I created myself a very dark whole.
I confirmed all her fears that I'm not the person she wants. Slowly but surely. I confirmed again and again. She might be like even if he changes now, he is weak.
And even now I'm calculating odds what the chances are that I can turn sth around.
She even told me today she would've rather married him.
I have to do the biggest change of my life. A huge 180.
I have to do the biggest change of my life. A huge 180.
Think long and hard before answering.
Starsky
So I get over myself and finally improve myself to be a better person so I can I get over my controlling issues, my depression, and all the crapp that is inside me. Get more motivation to be who I actually want to be bc I have issues with that.
Then and only then I can achieve what I would call a "chance" to find out with open hearts if me and my wife are actually made for each other or not.
What's your thought on what I think?
I think when you have more urgency about the first paragraph than you do about the second paragraph, you might have a chance.
What you just said sounds like you are still focusing on changing yourself so your W will come back. In my experience, that won't lead to being happier. You need to stop thinking about what she did, what she is doing, and what she will do in the future. Make a 180 because you don't want to be the guy you are...not for a reaction.
I have to chime in here too - it's you who you need to focus on. It does not matter if your wife notices any changes or not. You are the priority. Regardless of the outcome you will be a better person.
Don't beat yourself up. Chin up complex.
Jan
What you just said sounds like you are still focusing on changing yourself so your W will come back. In my experience, that won't lead to being happier. You need to stop thinking about what she did, what she is doing, and what she will do in the future. Make a 180 because you don't want to be the guy you are...not for a reaction.
I knew the answers myself
I'm just not there yet. And down the road I want to be loved the way I deserve it and for who I am too.
She told me she loves me, just in a different way...
Time to focus on myself and myself only
What you just said sounds like you are still focusing on changing yourself so your W will come back. In my experience, that won't lead to being happier. You need to stop thinking about what she did, what she is doing, and what she will do in the future. Make a 180 because you don't want to be the guy you are...not for a reaction.
There might not be anything "wrong" with the guy that you are. But the guy you need to be might not put up with this crap, even for a second.
I knew the answers myself
I'm just not there yet. And down the road I want to be loved the way I deserve it and for who I am too.
She told me she loves me, just in a different way...
Time to focus on myself and myself only
If she loved you right, there would be no OM.
I can promise you this, you will have to remind yourself of that all...the...time. I'm 15 months from BD and made the mistake more than a little of focusing on W instead of focusing on me. Its a long road, but that is why we say this is a marathon. Keep posting. Just remember think about what you learn here before you say and do things and you will have a lot less cases like today.
I also read Mozzas post multiple time to hammer it in my brain. NO MORE TALKING. I told myself that multiple times. And I ALWAYS catch myself wanting to talk. I was always like that tho. I HAVE TO MAKE A 180.
This is it. I'm mad at myself. But guess I'm human after all and real change is very difficult. I do steps baby steps. Not enough. I have to make big steps, and baby steps in my M might/will follow.
My security is on the line big time too. She's the provider, I'm on a greencard. Not much income, house debt, car debt, cheap health insurance through her job, I need to get out of this. I think I made a decision regarding a job. I'll go back to college and become a teacher. I always wanted that and I left college in Germany for her. I have a job with opportunities right now, helping an entrepreneur, I will continue to help him bc I am commited but I'll go get a degree now. Decision made.
Sry if I bother you with my life details. But I'm so mad at myself making all these mistakes. I slacked so hard. No freaking wonder my wife doesn't want me anymore.
I need to wake up!!!!!!!!!!
Hello complex
Sorry you going through a lot with your wife betrayal and affair, but trust me it does get better with time. I'll share this with you though. Your wife is far gone and nothing you can do or say (now) will change her mind. She will come around when she's ready to do so. she's lust now and in fantasy land ( affair made happy relationship) The focus now should be you and your green-card.
I never shared my experience concerning green card on this forum but I went through similar situation. I came to the U.S. with a student visa (Undergrad and meds school) I had the opportunity to get my green card after completing residency and fellowship at the same teaching hospital I trained (H1 program) not sure if you're familiar with this program but basically your employer file on your behalf. It does take a little longer than spouses sponsor program but you're guarantee to get your permanent residency so far you keep your employment and meet all the necessary requirement for the program.
Together with W eleven month and madly in love when this opportunity was presented to me. In fact one of the most loving and successful relationship I've had in yrs due to time and training. My wife suggested we get married and avoid all the commitment from the new job. She promised to be supportive and do everything for me then. So I decline the offer and took a job elsewhere. My wife soon follow my footsteps and took the mcat. I did everything to help but her scores was too low so she ended up going to med school overseas.
Our problems began the day we both made the decision for her to travel out of the country for school. My green card journey took almost 7yrs due to some stuff my wife kept hidden from her past. I got a temporary green card 2yrs ago and now working on my permanent. Here is the good news complex, you can get your permanent residency card with or without her! So far you able to show evidence of her affair and others thing she did why you guys were married.
Don't allow her push you around using this green card as a weapon. She will do it if you allow her. Stop talking about it with her. My wife did all that and never offer to help. In fact she said she's willing to go to my next interview just to open up that our marriage is over and since our marriage lasted for 9yrs should help me get my permanent lol. Normal script from a WAW. Anything just for you to leave them alone so they can continue cake eating.
Pls do take care of yourself man! All this shall pass. You'll be fine with or without her.
Out of our suffering we emerge. Our struggles are really our only hope. Let the hurt soften you instead of hardening you. Let the hurt open you instead of closing you. Let the hurt lead you to love, and not to hate.
Complex,
In an earlier post you said something about letting go and letting go of all hopes too.
You do have to detach but you DO NOT have to give up HOPE. You need to NOT have any EXPECTATIONS. They will just lead to more hurt.
this is all easier said than done but if you want to save your M you need to do it. It takes time but the sooner you catch on the better it will be for you. With or without your W.
Stay strong!!
I found great support here with you guys. I can't appreciate enough.
NEWS: I actually noticed when I snooped my wife's phone it backed up her whole phone on my computer.
So I actually went through the text of her and her best friend.
She shared everything with her.
And I just found out my W is completely MADLY in love with OM. It sounds very very serious.
I'm didn't tell her or whatsoever. I am glad I know exactly everything now and I can use that information to my advantage. I'm very ver very hurt right now, but I'm not going to overreact.
What should I do with this information??? She 100% clearly is in love with him and wants to divorce me ASAP to be with him. They didn't get physical yet for sure.
I found great support here with you guys. I can't appreciate enough.
NEWS: I actually noticed when I snooped my wife's phone it backed up her whole phone on my computer.
So I actually went through the text of her and her best friend.
She shared everything with her.
And I just found out my W is completely MADLY in love with OM. It sounds very very serious.
I'm didn't tell her or whatsoever. I am glad I know exactly everything now and I can use that information to my advantage. I'm very ver very hurt right now, but I'm not going to overreact.
What should I do with this information??? She 100% clearly is in love with him and wants to divorce me ASAP to be with him. They didn't get physical yet for sure.
You do not reveal information until you have collected plenty of it. I'd also put a VAR ( voice activated recorder ) in her car.
Get at least 3 weeks of solid intel, better yet 2 months. The voice stuff will take a week or two and you will have been revealed way more than you can bear to listen to. They do most of their cheating talk in the car.
If she didn't get physical and is ready to throw away what she has with you, when they get physical and oxytocin kicks in you will be toast for sure.
You didn't do anything wrong, $hit happens. You can find out information about the OM. Perhaps he's married, a player, cheats on women, has a woman. Something...
I'd be copying those backups or logs somewhere else.
Complex,
You have to decide for yourself if the A is a deal breaker for you.
If it isn't stop snooping Right now. Now you know and that all you need.
If it is a deal breaker then you can do whatever feels right to you. If not then you have to decide if telling her will get you closer to your goal of saving your M.
Starsky is very good with this I will let him handle it.
Haha ok let Starsky handle it. In the end I will have to tho.
To me it's not a deal breaker, yet. But the biggest eye opener ever. I just had a change of heart. I feel relieved. At least I know exactly what's going on. And if that is the true self of my W, let it be so.
Also her D friend is very very D supportive. She has bad influence on her, all she talk about is sex and a TON of different guys. And that "the other side is so much better".
I don't need more information. No more snooping.
I am so sorry for your pain. It blows to learn the depths of betrayal by those we took vows with.
Haha ok let Starsky handle it. In the end I will have to tho.
To me it's not a deal breaker, yet. But the biggest eye opener ever. I just had a change of heart. I feel relieved. At least I know exactly what's going on. And if that is the true self of my W, let it be so.
Also her D friend is very very D supportive. She has bad influence on her, all she talk about is sex and a TON of different guys. And that "the other side is so much better".
I don't need more information. No more snooping.
Same situation. Current lady is a real stunner. Actually we have been "together" for the past 3 years. But her friends boost her that she should continue to enjoy the thrill of the hunt.
Question now is what do I do with this information?
Some of the quotes in the messages to her friend are so outrageous. "He is coming back tomorrow, I'm annoyed :/", "I want to date 'movie star x' he has his life together, I want to [censored] him", she calls OM "boyfriend", "this starts to feel so real", "I want a baby with OM". "Me and H just talked again, same [censored] than 6 months ago, motherfucker, I'm over it", guess that's enough examples.
It's incredible how deep this is. Clearly influenced by her friend tho. Very disturbing. Not the person I know. Not the person her family knows her. Completely out of control. But I know she has a good heart. But she was such a good liar. She will find a way to "explain" and justify her actions.
Wonder if she will break with family over that. Her dad is not going to pay a second marriage, that's for sure....I won't tell them now but I won't cover the truth, and I'm sure try want to know WHY. I'll be as loving and understanding as I can. My heart changed. I won't go to the dark side again...
Btw she actually wants to help me with my greencard. Only time when she is threatening with quick D is when we have discussions.
She also texted me earlier and said "I screwed this up, I want to do things right now" I was just "ok". She has no idea...
Question now is what do I do with this information?
Some of the quotes in the messages to her friend are so outrageous. "He is coming back tomorrow, I'm annoyed :/", "I want to date 'movie star x' he has his life together, I want to [censored] him", she calls OM "boyfriend", "this starts to feel so real", "I want a baby with OM". "Me and H just talked again, same [censored] than 6 months ago, motherfucker, I'm over it", guess that's enough examples.
It's incredible how deep this is. Clearly influenced by her friend tho. Very disturbing. Not the person I know. Not the person her family knows her. Completely out of control. But I know she has a good heart. But she was such a good liar. She will find a way to "explain" and justify her actions.
Wonder if she will break with family over that. Her dad is not going to pay a second marriage, that's for sure....I won't tell them now but I won't cover the truth, and I'm sure try want to know WHY. I'll be as loving and understanding as I can. My heart changed. I won't go to the dark side again...
Btw she actually wants to help me with my greencard. Only time when she is threatening with quick D is when we have discussions.
She also texted me earlier and said "I screwed this up, I want to do things right now" I was just "ok". She has no idea...
You can help her to do right by pulling your emotional and financial support completely. LOL
My lady is also a master sweet talker, can explain anything. Is a master of fog navigation.
Question now is what do I do with this information?
Some of the quotes in the messages to her friend are so outrageous. "He is coming back tomorrow, I'm annoyed :/", "I want to date 'movie star x' he has his life together, I want to [censored] him", she calls OM "boyfriend", "this starts to feel so real", "I want a baby with OM". "Me and H just talked again, same [censored] than 6 months ago, motherfucker, I'm over it", guess that's enough examples.
Hey bro this is how it is. Many of the cheaters have devil's advocate's in their ears pushing hard. Basically telling them what to think. The cheater obviously wants their acceptance and to fit in with them.
It's incredible how deep this is. Clearly influenced by her friend tho. Very disturbing. Not the person I know. Not the person her family knows her. Completely out of control. But I know she has a good heart. But she was such a good liar. She will find a way to "explain" and justify her actions.
I'm glad you were able to determine this. Really you probably shouldn't be listening to what she says anymore when you realize how much she lies to you particularly.
Wonder if she will break with family over that. Her dad is not going to pay a second marriage, that's for sure....I won't tell them now but I won't cover the truth, and I'm sure try want to know WHY. I'll be as loving and understanding as I can. My heart changed. I won't go to the dark side again...
Btw she actually wants to help me with my greencard. Only time when she is threatening with quick D is when we have discussions.
She also texted me earlier and said "I screwed this up, I want to do things right now" I was just "ok". She has no idea...
Boy.
Hi Complex
I'm so sorry for what you are going through. It is awful to see some of these things. And now you know what you know and have the 'measure' of things, you may want to stop snooping for now - because it's torture.
One thing to remember is that these scenarios very much have a script and your W 'thinks' she is in love with OM. In reality, very few As actually turn out to be 'love' when tested in the real world. They are in fact 'infatuation' which can pass. But it may well take your W a while to realise that....or she may never do so.
This is why it is best to focus on you..
Complex,
You have to decide for yourself if the A is a deal breaker for you.
If it isn't stop snooping Right now. Now you know and that all you need.
If it is a deal breaker then you can do whatever feels right to you. If not then you have to decide if telling her will get you closer to your goal of saving your M.
Starsky is very good with this I will let him handle it.
I'm probably the wrong one to ask, as I'm a BIG proponent of the ongoing gathering of good intel to protect your interests.
Can you specify?
I'll get phone coaching on Monday but does anyone know what the basic protocol of this situation is. Since she is SO far away and divorce within the next few months will be inevitable, just so she can be with OM. Plus she thinks she gave everything enough thought so she thinks her decision is totally rational and the love she feels for OM is true and sustainable.
she thinks that due to they have been friends for a long time and true love she says has a good 'foundation' like that, not like our love where we rushed into things although it felt totally right at that time.
That's straight to the point what scares me. And I am just curious about some opinion on that.
I won't hang myself on these thoughts tho. The current situation is enough for me to completely detach and let it go.
Another thing I wonder about is family involvement.
We might be close to let her family know/can't hide it any longer.
(Family is big, very loving, very high values).
What's the procedure on that? I'm sure she won't tell them the whole truth like she didn't tell me. Should I play along or meet with them before/after very confidential, with no blaming, understanding and love and let them know the truth?
Another thing I wonder about is family involvement.
We might be close to let her family know/can't hide it any longer.
(Family is big, very loving, very high values).
What's the procedure on that? I'm sure she won't tell them the whole truth like she didn't tell me. Should I play along or meet with them before/after very confidential, with no blaming, understanding and love and let them know the truth?
Let them know lightly that you guys are going through problems related to infidelity. Do not try to get them to help you out though, so just let them know in case things get further out of hand and leave it at that. In the worst cases the families will support the cheating and will dog you out badly.
Hey Complex -- Sorry to hear. Unfortunately, you're outside of my areas of "expertise". I've never had an opportunity to snoop, so I've never learnt how to deal with it. My instinct is to gather the intelligence to understand what she thinks but doesn't tell you. There seems to be a lot there about what she'd like you to do differently, but I don't know if her A doesn't cloud her judgement. What I can say is that you really shouldn't panic about the tone and the content of her texts. Again, it's right on script. What else do you think that WAW say about OP? "Oh, I don't like him a lot, he's not very handsome, hope he doesn't call tomorrow...."? Of course not. Also, what do you think they say about the LBS? Exactly what your WAW says.
As for the family, I don't know exactly either. My instinct is that you don't need to get involved. Time has a way of making things clear. My WAW announced she was in an R with a new colleague 1.5 month after leaving me. I think people will figure out what happened on their own.
Your sitch is just getting started. The end of the tunnel is too far for you to see the light yet.
Another thing I wonder about is family involvement.
We might be close to let her family know/can't hide it any longer.
(Family is big, very loving, very high values).
What's the procedure on that? I'm sure she won't tell them the whole truth like she didn't tell me. Should I play along or meet with them before/after very confidential, with no blaming, understanding and love and let them know the truth?
That's a personal decision based on your core values. Personally, I loved and respected my MIL and FIL way too much to lie to them, and so I didn't. But there are risks, you've got to be of the right mindset (and I think you seem to be reeling a bit), and it's NOT strict DB teaching. I certainly wouldn't lie to them if they asked me outright, though.
Starsky