Previous thread Well, I guess it just takes time, right? Some people do it sooner, and others later. I finally realize there's nothing I can do, especially since my wife will not really communicate with me. We agreed on an asset split, and I packed her things for her this past weekend. I'm letting her go. Maybe this guilt that is preventing her from communicating with me will end up causing the demise of her affair. Maybe not. Either way, it's not up to me, it's up to her. I'm giving her and our marriage to God and letting go. Completely this time. It's time for me to move on. At least at this moment in time, she does not want to be with me. I still hope that she'll come around, but I'm not going to waste any more time focusing on it.
Is it bad DB'ing to ask the betrayer why they're doing what they're doing? I just don't understand how my heretofore very religious wife can suddenly believe that adultery is A-OK. How can someone who has been through sermons and such that teach that love is a choice not a feeling end up following their emotions rather than their mind?
You won't get a satisfactory answer, for she does not know herself.
Do not assume that she thinks adultery is OK; she is likely very much opposed to it, but right now it fills a need.
You are assuming that she is acting rationally and has justified all of this to herself. More likely she is acting totally emotionally and is at great conflict with all of it.
Remember when you were 17? Did you ever have anyone tell you that your girlfriend wasn't right for you? Did you listen? Resist the urge to reach out to question and reason with her. That is not something she is really capable of right now.
It can be a great waste of time to try to figure out why they do what they do. Even if you figured it out, there would be nothing you could do with the knowledge. Far better to identify what in yourself you can work on to make improvements. Identify your goals, work up a plan and start executing.
In your earlier post you said you were going to give her up to God and let go. Let God take care of her right now while you take care of yourself.
You won't get a satisfactory answer, for she does not know herself.
Do not assume that she thinks adultery is OK; she is likely very much opposed to it, but right now it fills a need.
You are assuming that she is acting rationally and has justified all of this to herself. More likely she is acting totally emotionally and is at great conflict with all of it.
Remember when you were 17? Did you ever have anyone tell you that your girlfriend wasn't right for you? Did you listen? Resist the urge to reach out to question and reason with her. That is not something she is really capable of right now.
It can be a great waste of time to try to figure out why they do what they do. Even if you figured it out, there would be nothing you could do with the knowledge. Far better to identify what in yourself you can work on to make improvements. Identify your goals, work up a plan and start executing.
In your earlier post you said you were going to give her up to God and let go. Let God take care of her right now while you take care of yourself.
Starsky
So I guess it would also be bad to ask her how the affair partner is better than me?
You won't get a satisfactory answer, for she does not know herself.
Do not assume that she thinks adultery is OK; she is likely very much opposed to it, but right now it fills a need.
You are assuming that she is acting rationally and has justified all of this to herself. More likely she is acting totally emotionally and is at great conflict with all of it.
Remember when you were 17? Did you ever have anyone tell you that your girlfriend wasn't right for you? Did you listen? Resist the urge to reach out to question and reason with her. That is not something she is really capable of right now.
It can be a great waste of time to try to figure out why they do what they do. Even if you figured it out, there would be nothing you could do with the knowledge. Far better to identify what in yourself you can work on to make improvements. Identify your goals, work up a plan and start executing.
In your earlier post you said you were going to give her up to God and let go. Let God take care of her right now while you take care of yourself.
She doesn't seem very conflicted about it. She's never once indicated that she was having doubts.
So I guess it would also be bad to ask her how the affair partner is better than me?
Yep. Yes! Zip it about the OM. Don't acknowledge him at all. Don't bring him up at all.
He's nuthin'. Not worth your head space.
I'm trying to pep talk myself by saying I've let go. I still want her back, but I'm giving her what she wants. I emailed her last week about splitting the assets ourselves rather than going through mediation, and she agreed. She agreed to my proposal without any objections. I think it was fair, but still. So we're saving thousands on mediation.
This weekend I packed her things for her, and I asked her to come pick them up. She said she'd come after Thanksgiving. That was a big change from our last conversation on the topic when she said she did not want to be alone with me. The hostility must have been from her perception that I was keeping her from what she wanted. I've been keeping my replies short and to the point.
Perhaps if we have positive interactions she will realize/remember that I'm not such a bad guy after all. That should cause internal conflict, right? I mean, she had to demonize me in order to justify the affair, but if I'm not such a bad guy after all, her justification disappears, right?
So I guess it would also be bad to ask her how the affair partner is better than me?
Yep. Yes! Zip it about the OM. Don't acknowledge him at all. Don't bring him up at all.
He's nuthin'. Not worth your head space.
OW, actually. And I don't think about her except to the extent that she's who my wife left me for. It's my beautiful wife that occupies my thoughts 24/7. I wish I didn't love her. I wish I could just put her out of my mind like she's put me out of hers...
Oops. Thanks for reminding me. Ugh. Swimming in too many OM's lately.
To help distract yourself from constantly thinking about W, GALing is essential for your wellbeing and makes you a much more well-rounded person.
WMB,
Perhaps if we have positive interactions she will realize/remember that I'm not such a bad guy after all. That should cause internal conflict, right? I mean, she had to demonize me in order to justify the affair, but if I'm not such a bad guy after all, her justification disappears, right?
Sadly, it's par for the course. Many WASes vilify and demonize the LBS so they can tell themselves that they were "right" to leave their spouses. Otherwise, why would they leave a spouse who is a nice guy/woman?
Consistent actions will slowly turn around that ship. Give this process time. A looong time, in fact.
WMB,
Perhaps if we have positive interactions she will realize/remember that I'm not such a bad guy after all. That should cause internal conflict, right? I mean, she had to demonize me in order to justify the affair, but if I'm not such a bad guy after all, her justification disappears, right?
Sadly, it's par for the course. Many WASes vilify and demonize the LBS so they can tell themselves that they were "right" to leave their spouses. Otherwise, why would they leave a spouse who is a nice guy/woman?
Consistent actions will slowly turn around that ship. Give this process time. A looong time, in fact.
Even though divorce is imminent? Is there still hope? Or have I lost her for good?
WMB,
One is never done until one says it is done.
I've seen DBers reconcile long after D papers were signed. One cannot predict the future. Who knows that you and W can reconcile down the road. Just keep doing what you've been doing.
I am so sorry that W is really pushing for a D very quickly! I am surprised at the speed of it.
Wonka, it's lightning fast. She met the OW at work last August. They became friends around November of last year. They started texting frequently in January of this year. They began an EA in March. It turned into a PA in May, and my wife moved out and in with the OW as soon as it got physical between them, so she had known the woman less than 9 months before moving in with her. She immediately began talking about divorce.
This is really awful, WMB. Just stay the course. What are your Thanksgiving plans?
Thanks, Wonka. Going to spend Thanksgiving with my dad. I won't be alone, but this will be my first Thanksgiving without her in 17 years. Are you suggesting that I stay the course because you think there's still hope? I am feeling so hopeless lately.
Hope you have a nice Thanksgiving.
WMB,
Thanks, Wonka. Going to spend Thanksgiving with my dad. I won't be alone, but this will be my first Thanksgiving without her in 17 years. Are you suggesting that I stay the course because you think there's still hope? I am feeling so hopeless lately.
Hope you have a nice Thanksgiving.
What I meant by 'staying the course' is keep doing what you've been doing and keep coming back here. I do want to comment about the 'hope' thing. Hope and faith are two separate & distinctive areas. Sometimes it is okay to keep a small ember of faith going inside of your heart because it is one and constant. That is your motivation to keep moving forward when the going gets tough at times. Hope comes and goes at times. In my mind, hope is a related term of expectation. Make sense?
Happy Thanksgiving too!
Hope everyone is having a nice Thanksgiving. I'm headed to my father's house where I get to explain to extended family that I'm separated and in the middle of divorce proceedings. Not really looking forward to that.
I'm sorry your in this sitch wmwb123. Stay strong and enjoy your family.
Thanks, HP. I hope you're having at least a tolerable Thanksgiving. I know you're dealing with this, too.
WMB,
You posted in HP's thread that was new to me:
When I exposed my wife's affair, it was precisely because I thought it through and decided I would want her to do it for me. Affairs are addictions, and it's very hard to stop of your own volition.
I am sorry that this did not pan out. With this new information, I now understand better the reason behind the quicksilver speed of your W pushing for a D. This is why I am personally against exposure because it's primary "premise" is to guilt and shame the other party into submission. It's an awful way to 'repair' the marriage and it really doesn't show unconditional love for your spouse.
That wasn't my purpose at all. Since she was pretending everything was normal, it appeared to me that it was the secrecy that was allowing the affair to thrive. Affairs are never good for the wayward spouse. I exposed her affair because I care deeply for her and wanted to help her. We're Christians, so she was breaking several of the 10 commandments (adultery, lying). I had hoped exposure would snap her out of her fog. In fact, it was after attending our pastor's funeral and seeing how she did not cry upon the passing of this father figure in her life that I became very worried about her and could see that she was exhibiting all the signs of wayward fog.
She told me she wanted a divorce when she moved out, so I don't really think that the exposure sped up her decision as I waited 2 months after she moved out. She never waivered from that decision.
WMB,
Affairs are never good for the wayward spouse.
Who made you the Lord Excutioner of what is "good" or "bad" for the wayward spouse?! Yes, the effects of the affair are not good for EVERYONE...not just the wayward spouse alone. I would be careful of taking on a holier-than-thou attitude here.
I exposed her affair because I care deeply for her and wanted to help her. We're Christians, so she was breaking several of the 10 commandments (adultery, lying).
It is not YOUR job to teach the consequences of their choices. Life does that. Lady Karma does all of that for you. It is not your resopnsibility to "show" them how 'wrong' they were. Life has a beautiful system in place where karma does show them the consequences of their choices. It is the Law of Cause and Effect at play.
Your W is an adult and needs to learn the consequences of her choices on her own without you "helping" them.
Infidelity hits everyone across all religious denominations and socioeconomic backgrounds.
so I don't really think that the exposure sped up her decision as I waited 2 months after she moved out. She never waivered from that decision.
In many ways, by undertaking that type of action through exposure, it makes it DOUBLY HARDER for the WAS to return back home because the premise behind exposure is "shaming and guilting" the spouse into submission. Personally, I don't agree with exposure for those reasons. It is how I view and feel about exposure. This doesn't necessarily mean that I am right and you're wrong or vice versa.
I think it was in my first thread here that I talked about exposing the affair. My DB coach said I could tell her parents as long as I knew her parents would love her unconditionally. I did, and they do, so I told them. I also told two of her Christian friends and two of her coworkers (one of whom is a pastor's wife). I did not go nuclear on her. I told people that I knew would love her despite knowing of her sin. Everyone I told still loves her and is praying for her to repent (although I don't know about the coworkers since I do not communicate with them). My purpose for exposure was accountability, not shame. I would have wanted my wife to do the same for me.
WMB,
Personally, I don't agree with exposure for those reasons. It is how I view and feel about exposure. This doesn't necessarily mean that I am right and you're wrong or vice versa.
Wonka, I understand where you're coming from. It was not an easy decision for me. As I said, I struggled with it for 2 months. In the end I decided I should do it as an act of love to help her break free from her sin. I decided it was what I would want her to do for me.
I hope you don't hate me for my decision. I value your opinion, and I hope you will continue to offer me your wisdom.
WMB,
Just to speak to a few things I saw earlier in your thread.
In my humble opinion, your sitch is really new. The EA/PA/discovery/D filing, all the rest.
It's been a whirlwind for you; not a lot of time to do soul-searching on your end while you're so busy reeling from the actions of your W.
As for "is it too late?" I can say that seven months ago my H's work=wife/mutual friend advised me to sign the D papers and get on with it. That he "has completely made his mind up and will never change it."
Well....as it turns out, that's not exactly the case.
It takes TIME and CONCERTED, CONSISTENT EFFORT on us LBSs' parts to SHOW them through our actions, that they were WRONG about us.
And in the interim, show ourselves that we're pretty good people too, even if we weren't always that way before.
In my case, I chose NOT to sign and return the papers. I did not have to by law, just because my H wanted it. I told him he was going to have to wait the required amount of time to prove his case because I was not about to pack up and leave my home, my animals, my life--just because he was "unhappy" and saw divorce as the only option.
That, in my mind, was his problem, not mine. I have been sitting tight and have never regretted it one bit.
So, no. It's not too late. If you don't want it to be.
---(G)GGG
Thank you, GG. I think I misunderstood you in the other thread. If so, I apologize.
I also did not sign my wife's petition. I filed a response only and denied irreconcilable differences. It didn't help, though, because her lawyer simply proposed mediation. Rather than go through that pointless exercise I made a proposal for our assets, and my wife agreed. So the only thing left is our court date if I'm not mistaken.
WMB,
Please know this: I will not judge or condemn a person for taking a certain course of action when it comes to exposure. I DO feel for you...this had to be incredibly hard for you. No doubt about it.
WMB,
Personally, I don't agree with exposure for those reasons. It is how I view and feel about exposure. This doesn't necessarily mean that I am right and you're wrong or vice versa.
Wonka, I understand where you're coming from. It was not an easy decision for me. As I said, I struggled with it for 2 months. In the end I decided I should do it as an act of love to help her break free from her sin.
I decided it was what I would want her to do for me.
I hope you don't hate me for my decision. I value your opinion, and I hope you will continue to offer me your wisdom.
Take a closer look at the bolded section, WMB. You are making ASSUMPTIONS on what your W might, would, could....have done
for you. Why would you want W to make that decision for you?? Is it her responsibility to do so?? I think not. I find it incredibly unfair to place the burden on the other spouse to "break up" the affair when it is the wayward's spouse CHOICE to engage in an A. Therefore the
burden is on them to break off all contact with the OM/OW. It is their own mess to clean up. Not yours. They're adults.
This is precisely what expectations and assumptions do WITHOUT any advance
mutual agreements in place. Absent of mutual agreements, this is where resentments set in and then a person festers in those resentments until THEY EXPLODE.
Let me take this further to illustrate my point:
I decided it was what I would want her to do for me.Suppose you are an alcoholic---I'm just using this as an example. You decide that you want your W to stop you drinking. Is it fair to put the burden on her? You made the choice to drink alcohol day in and day out for 20 years. Suppose you're one mean drunk who hit at the children etc. Again, is it your W's job to make you quit drinking? No. You're a grown man, right? If you want to quit drinking badly enough, you'll figure it out because you do see the damage you're seeing on your W, children, etc. Maybe you become homeless because you cannot keep your job due to drinking.
You're a grown man. Life teaches the consequences of you continuing to drink.
Likewise with your W. She's a grown woman. Trust em, life WILL teach her the consdeuqnces of her choices.
ALL DB forums, every single one of them, is littered with stories of life teaching WASes the copnsequences of their affairs.
Make sense?
(((WMB)))
Chin up, buddy.
WMWB, I agree with Wonka on the Global Nuclear affair outing. It is most certainly a way to make sure you end a marriage.
Trust me, in the beginning stages when I was self righteously angry I thought about outing it on Facebook and everything. I could literally destroy her life in a few mouse clicks, but to what end? Because I'm angry and hurt? I'm going to destroy the person that I love more than anything in this world short of God...God, that was the answer. He would certainly not approve of me perpetrating any harm towards my wife no matter the reason. So, outing = bad.
Now, WMWB, I agree with you in a limited outing sense. There are people close to me in my inner circle that know the situation but not her family. At least not that I've told them.
The almighty Goat Goddess is wise. CC, don't throw in the towel yet.
Wonka, I absolutely agree, it's the sinner's responsibility to repent. However, I would hope she would love me enough to help me with my alcohol addiction. The only other option for her would be divorce, and that certainly would be her right. Some people are able to break free from alcoholism with help, though. I hope she would try to get me help before calling it quits. Unless I was abusive, in which case I hope she'd kick me to the curb and never look back. I hate men that abuse women. But I digress. I saw evidence that exposure sometimes helped waywards break free from their affairs, and I wanted to help her. You may not agree with me, but I believe that unrepentant adultery is a sin that can keep someone out of heaven. I knew she might hate me, but I chose to expose the affair hoping that it would end her affair regardless of whether she came back to me immediately or not.
Jefe, I chose a limited exposure precisely because my intent was not to humiliate or embarrass her but to help her see what she was doing from an objective standpoint (the eyes of close friends and family). I told her parents the same thing, and they understood. They have remained in contact with me and are encouraging her to reconsider the divorce.
WMWB123...Sorry for your situation, I have been dealing with some of the same issues but with my H. Its been about three months since I discovered his affair with my good friend. I've desperately been trying to detach and it is one of the hardest things I've ever had to do mostly because I love this man with my whole heart regardless of the pain he's caused over the last few months. Just recently I've noticed small periods of time when he and the the OW are not on my mind, and it's a small step in the right direction and such a nice mental break! One step at a time and I know for me I will forever have an ember of hope that maybe one day we could have a relationship again but for now we must try to focus on ourselves! We are worth more than being someone's second choice!
Hi intime,
Thanks for the kind words. I'm sorry about your sitch, too. It's really sad that our spouses chose to talk to other people about their marriage problems and seek comfort from them rather than their spouses that love them.
I have said something similar to my friends and family. Yes, this woman has caused me more pain than anyone else on the planet, but prior to the A, she also brought me more joy than anyone else ever has.
WMB,
Let's continue with the alcohol example:
However, I would hope she would love me enough to help me with my alcohol addiction. The only other option for her would be divorce, and that certainly would be her right. Some people are able to break free from alcoholism with help, though. I hope she would try to get me help before calling it quits.
They get help because
THEY want the help and are ready for it. Oftentimes, they need to hit rock bottom before they say, "I need help and I want it/I'm ready for it". From that point and on, they're on the recovery path in breaking the cycle. Perhaps the spouse has tried to help the alcoholic several times, but got brushed away , spurned or stonewalled in every conceivable way. As you can see by now, you cannot FORCE them to give up drinking because they DON'T WANT or AREN'T INTERESTED in getting help with their addiction.
It is the same way with WASes who have OM/OW. Affairs are as equally destructive as alcoholicsm or hard drugs. You cannot force them to stop seeing OW/OM. However, you can set a boundary of what you will or will not tolerate. Boundaries are for your own well-being. Oftentimes the affairs do burn out and the WASes do HIT rock bottom after they experience or see the destruction they leave in their wake.
Then what next? What will their memory be of you as the LBS? One who has acted with compassion, dignity, grace, and class based on unconditional love. I'd like to think that positive feelings/memories of you usually draws them back to you which is why we harp at those 180's and GAL constantly to detach yourselves from their destructive choices.
You are not responsible for their affairs. It is all on them.
You are not responsible for alcoholics. It is all on them.
You are not responsible for drug addicts. It is all on them.
You may not love their behaviors, but you still can love them from a distance.
What about interventions?
Interventions will sometimes work with addicts but usually NOT from spouses or people that close to the addict. They simply refuse to hear it from these people.
My wife has already had people "intervene" that were people she used to look up to and she has distanced herself from them as far and as fast as she could.
That's what I mean, though. The addict has to be the one who decides ultimately, but loved ones can intervene and help them see the destructiveness of their behavior.
Here's the main difference:
With addicts the choice to use or not use is ultimately theirs. They can try and blame their addiction and substance abuse on others but the problem lies with-in the user.
Affairs...we are talking about affairs in the context of a marital or otherwise committed relationship. It this case both partners played a role in the demise of the relationship. This in no way excuses the behavior of the unfaithful party but it does mean when they point the finger the other direction there may be some truth in it.
What I am saying is and what I believe Wonka is alluding to is right now is not the time to focus on any part of her stuff but rather focus on yours. If you want to liken this to addiction recovery there is a saying we repeat often. We seek to reach people through attraction not by promotion.
You can intervene and try to get her to see the destructiveness of her behavior meanwhile all see may be able to see is the destructiveness of yours in her reality.
Love you man. Praying for you.
I accept full responsibility for my part in the breakdown of our marriage, and I know what I have to do to fix my side of the street. However, the choice to enter into an adulterous relationship was 100% hers. I can't accept blame for that.
Nor should you.
Trust me, I understand completely.
Oh, and I feel I've done all I possibly can intervention-wise. I'm focusing on myself now. I didn't make her have an affair, and I can't make her stop. All I can do is be willing to work on things if she decides that's what she wants.
People may disagree with my decision to expose my wife's affair, and I understand the reasoning. I had the same concerns. Ultimately, I decided I needed to do what I could to help her. My motivation was my unconditional love for my wife. What attracted me to my wife in the first place was her logical mind. I know that if she comes out of the fog she will understand why I did it. She will see it as an act of love. The old her would have, so if she comes off the PEA high, I'm sure she will understand.
Anyway, this was kind of a side track. I exposed the affair in July and that was that. My focus now is on being the husband she will want to return to someday.
WMB,
We are not disagreeing with your decision to do exposure. What we are doing instead is stressing the key point that the WAS has to make the decision on their own to end their affair. Not from you. Not from anyone else. That is the difference we're trying to point out here.
I am with you that you are NOT responsible for their choice to engage in an affair, but do own your part in the M's breakdown and do what you can to reflect on what changes you can do to improve yourself as a partner, husband, and man.
We all are praying that your W will come out of the OW fog sometime soon.
Hi Wonka,
Yes, I understand where you're coming from, and trust me, I'm not offended. I just felt like I needed to clarify why I did it, because people were suggesting that the purpose was to shame the spouse into coming back. That thought never crossed my mind. I love my wife, and my only intent was to help her. If she were in her right mind, she would have agreed with me. What I intended was for people that suppor our marriage to attempt to reason with her. They did, but it didn't snap her out of it.
I also don't think the exposure had anything to do with her filing. I asked her in May to give it two months before filing. She told me in July that she hadn't changed her mind. So she waited the requested amount of time and then filed. I should have asked for six months, I guess, but it was on the fly, and two months was what came out of my mouth.
WMB,
I think the fact that we have been able to have this discussion while respecting our own perspectives is wonderful!
That's what I love so much about DB forums. A lot of good and supportive people around these parts.
If you don't want a D to happen quickly, you can ask your L to stall and delay. Inform your L that you still want a reconciliation with your W and that D isn't what you want. Oftentimes, Ls will understand your POV and will do what they can legally to delay the D by "forgetting" something.
Have you been able to communicate your wishes to your L?
Yes, Wonka, I have.
We're doing the bare minimum to be cooperative. I am still praying she will snap out of it before the divorce goes through. It appears I'll also have an opportunity for DBing when she comes to get her things, although I'm praying she'll come to her senses before that, too.
WMB,
I'm curious to know what the law is in your state regarding D. How long does the parties have to wait from the filing until it is granted by the Courts?
Jiminy Cricket!!! That fast??!! It blows.
Yep. I've delayed and stalled the best I could, by there's not a lot left I can do. My L says we can probably delay until next year.
I've read that divorce itself puts pressure on affairs, so who knows, maybe I can have a story like Crimson.
I've read that divorce itself puts pressure on affairs, so who knows, maybe I can have a story like Crimson.
I like how you're trying to make lemonade with the lemons you've been handed by W and how you think! Yeah..Crimson is quite a story, isn't he?
Wm, Wonka,
It's hard to believe that in some places, one can get a divorce in 60 days like it's trading in your car.
That is no time at all for people to think things through, and personally I think a timeline like that is very destructive for families, and children who pay the price of decisions that are often made in haste, and for all the worst reasons.
Sorry for you wm...
-(G)GGG
Wonka and GGG,
And 30 days in some states. The return policy for some stores is longer than that. Yikes!
Thank you, GG and GB for the supportive words. I'm not ready to give up yet. I think I'm beginning to detach, so I've got a second wind.
Good! I'm glad to hear that.
My wife came to get her things this past weekend. She has now officially moved out.
Yet there was a development. Before she left she apologized to me. She said when I told her co-workers about her affair, they told her I was crazy, unstable and possibly dangerous. She said she believed them and so she has been treating me poorly ever since. She said now she realizes I've "always been a nice person." She even said she understood why I did it. She even cried a little.
Right after she left I found a postcard for her in the mailbox. I took a picture and sent it to her via text. She replied almost immediately, the first time she's responded to a text in five months. There have been several friendly texts since then.
I'm encouraged that she is showing signs of rational thought. Thinking I was crazy is irrational. Realizing that I am and always have been a nice person is rational. I had hoped, however, that the rational thought would return all at once and she would realize how irrational her affair is.
What do I do now? Do I attempt to reestablish communication? My DB coach had been working with me on that until she cut off contact. With divorce looming, though, should I really let her think we'll just be friends after the divorce?
It feels so good to have friendly contact with her, but I do not want my wife as a friend. I want her to be my wife.