Jefe
There clearly are some positive signs in your exchanges with your W. She seems to want to be more present in your lives and in your home. My advice, and one that I NEED to follow, is continue to detach, GAL but also show compassion and kindness when you can. Be a GREAT father and friend.
If your W has guilt over what she did (and we know she does) and she thinks either you will not forgive her or she cannot forgive herself, nothing you will say will change that right now. I am sure you have told her that you will forgive her for her actions and that you also are working on yourself. What you cannot control is how she forgives herself. I prayed to God today to help my W find a way to let go of whatever resentment she has and to find a way to forgive herself. Your W and my W need to do that piece on their own, with God's help.
You need to care for yourself. I think your exchanges with your W were good. Maybe keep then shorter (I am bad at this piece myself). Sometimes, I will just send a text exchange with "TTYL". End it on your terms. Not her terms.
Keep on truckin'
I had not thought of the forgiving herself angle, to be honest. I have been wrapped up in my feelings about it never thought she my have self resentment over the situation. I will pray for her right now and I guess I need to see her in a little bit of a more human light. The WASs make it hard on themselves when they display the everything is great and awesome and just the way I planned it attitude.
Thanks sho
Jefe ... Just finished catching up on your sitch.
Yeah, my W has mentioned a couple times that "I deserve better" ... she seems to be starting to see that she destroyed a family and a marriage ... and honestly .. the past couple years the marriage was not good, and like she said .. it took losing it all for me to realize what I had .. and she was right. Amazing how we all just go through life and then get the BD and all ths sudden there is very little that is more important to us than the M and the Family. I regret not appreciating this earlier .. but I have recently thanked God for opening my eyes.
Just know ... this is going to take some time ... I think that's the hardest part of it all. Your WAW is going to have to process it all .. and realize that what she is about to lose is nothing to what she will gain .... it very well may take her "dating".... just brace yourself and continue .. seems what you are doing is working. I get a feeling she is giving things ALOT of thought.
Amazing how we all just go through life and then get the BD and all ths sudden there is very little that is more important to us than the M and the Family. I regret not appreciating this earlier .. but I have recently thanked God for opening my eyes.
AMEN.
God has been convicting me of all kinds of stuff that I had even forgot about. If anything, I have a much clearer picture of what a marriage should look like.
Journaling
This afternoon the W picked up the kids from school and brought them home. I was under the truck trying to get the last little bit of stuff finished. D5 has been very whiny and crying alot lately. She is not coping with the situation as well as D7. So my W is dropping them off and starts spewing at me for not getting them to bed sooner the night before because look at how whiny she is, blah, blah, blah, blah....
I respond, "She's been like that for weeks. You haven't noticed?"
Then W complains about the house, the dishes, the clothes, the lawn...blah, blah, blah, blah....
She was here an entire 5 minutes and off she went. It's pool league #1 night, you know. And Johnny is going to be there as usual. Oh, how fun.
I'm thinking to my self, if I didn't have to be both mom and dad, try and run "our" business, put the engine back in the truck and keep up the house, I just might be doing a better job. Ugh, the toxic egocentricity of the WAS's is nauseating some days. Such a stark contrast to yesterday.
She texted later and apologized. I ignored it.
A friend called today to check on me and the situation and see if I needed anything. She said she's been monitoring FB and is just appalled at how a woman can walk away from her children, husband, marriage and home and post how wonderful everything in life is. I said of course it is. It's all rainbows, unicorns, and leprechauns over here, don't you know.
Is it a felony or misdemeanor in Texas to put your wife in time-out?
More journaling.
Text transcript from last night:
4:24pm her apology for her agitation:
W: Sorry, I'm just ready for that stupid truck to be fixed so you can concentrate on our girls and the house.
5:43pm
W:No Check (in the PO mailbox)
10:53pm (She's leaving the pool hall)
W: Hello?
W: Are you not responding now? (Took her 5 hours to notice?)
M: I heard you
W: Is the truck fixed?
M: Almost, just need some fine tuning
W: OK, how are the girls?
M: Asleep
That was the end.
You are handling this well. Make sure you are the better person and handle this in a way that will make your family, your kids and you proud.
She is still way deep in the fog of alien land. Continue to focus on you but listen to her when she spews. The advice that was given to me was to really listen to the stuff that hurt the most. This feedback is probably dead on and something on which you need to work.
Would keeping the house cleaner be a 180 for you? Perhaps doing this would (1) show her that you do not need her and (2) demonstrate that you are moving forward. My W always made the bed in the morning but now never does. So I make it every morning. Why? To show her that I am moving forward and do not need her for anything. Not only might this attract her back, but it also is preparing me for what could be the inevitable (being a single dad). In the case of the latter, I will need to make meals, make the bed, clean up the house, etc.
Finally, next time you do not reply to her texts, perhaps instead of "I heard you" respond with "oh, sorry, I have been super busy, just getting to your texts now." I heard you sounds like you were stewing a bit and angry. Anger will not attract her back. Confidence will. As the vets have tried to drill into my head, be happy, positive, confident and strong.
Keep on truckin'
She is still way deep in the fog of alien land. Continue to focus on you but listen to her when she spews. The advice that was given to me was to really listen to the stuff that hurt the most. This feedback is probably dead on and something on which you need to work.
So you are saying the things she says to me that hurt me the most is what I need to give more of my attention to?
Would keeping the house cleaner be a 180 for you? Perhaps doing this would (1) show her that you do not need her and (2) demonstrate that you are moving forward. My W always made the bed in the morning but now never does. So I make it every morning. Why? To show her that I am moving forward and do not need her for anything. Not only might this attract her back, but it also is preparing me for what could be the inevitable (being a single dad). In the case of the latter, I will need to make meals, make the bed, clean up the house, etc.
When she left because of your depressive funk, and I was in one too, the house looked horrible. I busted my hump getting it back in order. She even texted me one day saying she liked how clean I kept the place. With everything going on the last week or so I have let some things slip a little. It still looks way better than it did when she left. But yes, I do see your point.
Finally, next time you do not reply to her texts, perhaps instead of "I heard you" respond with "oh, sorry, I have been super busy, just getting to your texts now." I heard you sounds like you were stewing a bit and angry. Anger will not attract her back. Confidence will. As the vets have tried to drill into my head, be happy, positive, confident and strong.
I was half asleep when she was texting but I still knew it was a little snippy right after I hit send. Truth is, I am angry, I was angry last night. This whole situation has got to be the stupidest thing that ever was. I understand though that it doesn't really fit into the detaching motif. I will do as you suggest at the next opportunity.
Thanks Sho. Your input and advice are valuable to me.
She is still way deep in the fog of alien land. Continue to focus on you but listen to her when she spews. The advice that was given to me was to really listen to the stuff that hurt the most. This feedback is probably dead on and something on which you need to work.
So you are saying the things she says to me that hurt me the most is what I need to give more of my attention to?
When a WAW spews, she will likely touch on things that hurt
her the most. It may all sound like fiction to you, but buried in the spew are her perceptions of you or your actions that drove her to this state. Whether real or not, it's what she perceives. So if you listen closely and honestly, you will learn what it is you have to fix, even if you don't agree it was broken. And if you're really honest, you will recognize some truth to what she says. Maybe she's interpreted that truth to an extreme that was opposite of your
intent, but that doesn't really matter now, it's what she believes.
-Zew
That's what Sho means when he says "This feedback is probably dead on, and something on which you need to work."
Jefe
You are doing well ... your focus is on what you need to do, you are being the responsible rock that your 2 girls need .. thats all you can do. I think you handled the TM very well ... atleast your W did apologize after the fact.
I know my W has the Spew Geyser on lock down .. but once it starts to go ... man get out the coat and get ready for the rain. And like the 2 fellas above mentioned .... as you are in the storm, find inner peace and try to listen to her crying out from that fog ... the things she will blast you out ... there are some truths in there as to why she is hurting and it is in fact valuable information.
Thanks, CG.
I will continue to Journal and post the communication back and forth. I seem to get more clarity that way and you guys have been a wealth of information since I started doing this.
Thank you all.
Text log 11/21/14 AM
6:42AM
W: They need breakfast every morning
W: Bring those clothes too
M: Yes I know on both accounts
M: Good luck today (She starts training for her new job today)
W: Ty
W: I miss my girls
W: Everyday
I wanted to respond WE miss you too but I chose to not respond at all.
She texted and called later about a birthday party Sat for the kids to go to and wanted to know how much money she could pull for some necessities.
I'm glad it appears that I am handling this well, cause it sure doesn't feel like it.
Jefe
Perfectly handled, you only responded that you are in fact aware and dealing with your children's needs ... and did not offer comfort to WAW when she expresses what looks like mommy guilt that is creeping in. ..... The WE statement would have been a pursuit a bit IMHO
I felt that it was pursuit too. That's why I dropped it, and I certainly wasn't going to giver her the benefit of 'They do too" Screw that, get your a$$ home then.
Besides, I'm not going to engage in that string either. This is her bed and her choices, she needs to sort that out. Not my circus, Not my monkeys.
The full weight of the "Dating" comment is starting to push down on my head.
Leaving the house in a few to go be around other human beings for awhile.
Hi Jefe,
Sorry I’ve been absent. I’m back on duty at the hospital. 12 hours on and 12 hours off. When I’m off---I’m usually sleeping.
To answer your question—I don’t speak to the people on this forum because I don't want to commit to helping them. Yours is an interesting case. I honestly believe your relationship can be salvaged
My primary goal with you is to get you and your wife to a place where I can hand you off to a marriage counselor. Since it doesn’t appear you have EAP or insurance available I would like to see you both in pastoral counseling. It is free through your church.
I think you have been receiving very good advice since the weekend. My only caution is stay aware of well-meaning friends and family and the biased shoulder—even on this forum. People only hear your side of the story and are (understandably) on your side. This means the advice will always skew to your favor.
Regarding the recent behavior of your wife: I think she shows promise. But there is a difference between detaching and ignoring. Please be sure you know the difference when dealing with her.
If your wife is reaching out and you do not mirror her gestures she will stop reaching out.
Believe it or not, you missed several opportunities to connect with your wife.
When she said she was ready for the truck to be fixed so you could concentrate on “our” girls at the house you should have given a genuine reply about the difficulty of being a single parent.
“I can’t wait for it to be done either. I miss spending quality time with them.”
Detaching doesn’t mean you exclude your wife from all your emotions. It doesn’t mean your wife isn’t permitted to have a window into your life anymore. It means you must keep a lid on your emotions when reacting to her.
If you would have responded with a genuine non-argumentative open ended comment about parenting you might have been able to take the conversation into a different direction. Talking about the girls brings you both together as parents. Discussing your shared desire to be good parents is a bonding experience.
Another missed opportunity came when she said “I miss my girls…everyday.”
You SHOULD have replied, “They miss you.”
This was the right thing to say. You didn’t have to say, “We miss you.” But you should have said, “They miss you.”
A parent needs to know they are missed by their children. This reminds them that children don’t “move on.” That children don’t “get better with time.”
By denying her this information you denied your daughters the right to let their mom know she was missed and you denied your wife the right to know she was missed. No one benefited from the withholding of information.
My advice is to send a text saying the following:
“Yesterday when you sent a text saying you missed the girls…I should have replied that they miss you….They do miss you. They miss you terribly. I should have told you this yesterday. And it was mean of me not to say this. I’m sorry.”
I know this is a hard thing to write but it tells her something pleasant: She is loved and valued and missed by her children. A mother wants to know this.
It acknowledges that you did something mean. But--more important--She didn't have to tell you. You figured it out on your own and came back and apologized.
This will go a long way to heal your relationship.
You made a comment “Not my circus, not my monkey.”
Yes. Like it or not. It is your circus. And it is your monkeys. You can join another circus with different monkeys but you will still have her in your life forever because she is the mother of your children.
To answer your question—I don’t speak to the people on this forum because I don't want to commit to helping them. Yours is an interesting case. I honestly believe your relationship can be salvaged
My primary goal with you is to get you and your wife to a place where I can hand you off to a marriage counselor. Since it doesn’t appear you have EAP or insurance available I would like to see you both in pastoral counseling. It is free through your church.
I feel very special, thank you.
One of our pastors has certainly offered counseling. Our church is huge and we have a full staff of licensed practitioners at the main campus and the pastor has offered to send us there is we desire free of charge. So I appreciate that. I'm glad you think we have hope, too.
My advice is to send a text saying the following:
“Yesterday when you sent a text saying you missed the girls…I should have replied that they miss you….They do miss you. They miss you terribly. I should have told you this yesterday. And it was mean of me not to say this. I’m sorry.”
I will take care of that this evening. Lately she has been texting when she leaves the pool halls. That's in about an hour and a half and if she doesn't reach out, I will anyway. I am seeing exactly what you mean. I will just have to listen carefully and read the situation instead of reacting. Done.
I think you have been receiving very good advice since the weekend. My only caution is stay aware of well-meaning friends and family and the biased shoulder—even on this forum. People only hear your side of the story and are (understandably) on your side. This means the advice will always skew to your favor.
I have been exceptionally careful at the information I have given out regarding my wife and to whom. It's nobody's business, really, and it just makes things that much worse when you trash talk, then you reconcile. Most people know we are separated these days, they just don't have the facts. And they don't need them, either.
Yes. Like it or not. It is your circus. And it is your monkeys. You can join another circus with different monkeys but you will still have her in your life forever because she is the mother of your children.
You are very correct. I have no intentions of joining another circus and I love my monkeys, so I think I'll keep them.
You left me hanging the other day on your observations with her acts of service. I went back and I think I found what you are talking about. I also thought back over the years and I never really noticed it, but yes she does. You were going somewhere with that. What's your read on it?
I have a strong feeling you probably need to use all 5 love languages on your wife for a while.
However, if she keeps using Acts of Services as her love language after she emotionally harms you---mirror it back.
She subconsciously expressed this is the love language she associates with penance.
I have a strong feeling you probably need to use all 5 love languages on your wife for a while.
However, if she keeps using Acts of Services as her love language after she emotionally harms you---mirror it back.
She subconsciously expressed this is the love language she associates with penance.
That's where I thought you were going.
Look at my rude self,
Sorry I’ve been absent. I’m back on duty at the hospital. 12 hours on and 12 hours off. When I’m off---I’m usually sleeping.
Glad you're back. I was getting worried. Those are brutal shifts. Thank you for taking the time out to deal with my situation. It means alot.
W's reply to the apology text I sent last night:
W: Thank you, I know they do. I will see them before work. I'll come over before I go to the church
Jefe
I agree with Hope that you want to keep the lines of communication open and provide her compliments, assuming that they are true, related to the kids, her work, etc. I have told my W a few times that she is a great mom and that the kids love her. I will compliment her about her work and tell her that we appreciate how hard she works. This is not pursuing. As it has been said before on this forum, that is just being nice and treating her like you would treat a neighbor. It shows confidence and PMA. For example, when my W makes something for dinner, I will say "wow, that smells great. Thanks for making dinner." She will appreciate the compliment but it also shows your confidence and strength.
With that said, you don't need to get drag into her drama nor should you be so quick to respond to calls or texts. You are GALing. You may not have time to reply right away.
Thanks, Sho. That is SN area where I need work, the instant response.
Lots of positive texts this morning and the wife even called to talk to the girls. She said she'd let me know as soon as she found out more about her new job schedule. It comforts me to know I'm am the first to find out about some of her life experiences.
Very busy the next several days. Good, will keep my mind occupied. The lack of sleep is becoming more of an issue lately, though. Just wish I could shut my mind off at night a little better. I'll work through it.
Cheers everyone, will blog more later.
Well,
Wife called right after she left work to tell me how her second day of training went.
Tonight is her last day working at the church. Very sad indeed. She is working in the children's ministry and the child care workers are all volunteer. She asked me if I could work in there tonight (second time in a row, I worked last week). Feels a little nostalgic and sad all at the same time.
I'm hoping her niceness isn't because she's gearing up for something.
On the flip side, she won't really have time to "date" because her new job is wed-sat 9:30 Am - 9:30 Pm. And the upcoming holidays could make the hours longer.
Still find myself being scared to death every now and then, but it's getting lesser and lesser. I am starting to really miss the female companionship of my wife. Gotta leave for church in 30. Journal more later.
I went to church tonight. I made the mistake of looking to see who else was there, and I saw a man hug his wife. Somehow that hit me very hard and I began to cry, so I left early and came home. I was there for less than 30 minutes.
Hi Jefe,
I don’t think your wife is “preparing” to do evil and I don't think she is gearing up for anythig. I think she is very hurt. I believe you both have deep wounds and I believe the wounds go back to the first time you split (before you were married).
I don’t know what caused the breakup but it must have been epic. Because she ran into the arms of another man and you let her.
I strongly urge that before you try to heal the new wounds of 2102, you go back and heal the old wounds.
I don’t think your wife wants out of the marriage because she thinks the grass is greener. I think she wants out of the marriage because she is frustrated and can’t get your attention. Her behavior indicates she wants you to be her hero.
What I find interesting is you completely believe you are being her hero (you are raising your children, you are financially supporting the family, you repairing the vehicles, etc.)
So what does she want and why aren’t you hearing her?
And, more important, how long has she been asking for a hero and how long have you been deaf to her voice?
Your wife lashes out at you. When people lash they usually say what is really bothering them. Remember a while back I gave an example of a lasher:
The Lasher is late picking up the kids and a Yeller says, “What kept you?” the Lasher responds “Are you saying I’m a terrible mother! Well, you’re not that great of a father, either!!!”
Believe it or not, the Lasher actually explained her issue: She felt she was a terrible mother and her feeling of inadequacy was reinforced by the Yeller. The Yeller could easily deescalate the situation by saying, “You’re a great mother. You’re the best mother I’ve ever seen. We just need to buy you a better watch.”
I assume you are familiar with the 12 Step Program. If so, I suggest you take this approach with your marriage.
Specifically, make a searching and fearless inventory of yourself as a partner and (later) a husband over the course of your relationship (Step 4). I would like you to become honest about the exact nature of your wrongs as a partner (Step 5). Make direct amends to your wife about the injuries you caused her (Steps 8 & 9).
This should be a humbling exercise designed to show you understand where you let her down during the relationship. It is not a “discussion” about your marriage. It’s not about her and what you want her to do.
The purpose of your conversation is to try and heal her heart…which I believe is broken. And whatever happened to break her heart needs to be heard, acknowledged, and validated (whether you think it was valid or not).
You will probably have more than one conversation with her. Her behavior indicates there is a lot of pent up hurt. My hope is that after the first conversation she will feel safe enough to have a second conversation with you. The second conversation will lead to a third and so on.
Eventually she will agree to counseling.
If you do these steps I want to emphasize this is about recognizing wounds you inflicted and apologizing. It is not about her recognizing anything. In fact, if she wants to discuss her behavior…stop her.
Explain your appreciation for her willingness to discuss her behavior but it would muddy the waters and change the focus of the conversation. If she wants to have a conversation about her behavior…suggest this might be something you could do in marriage counseling.
Do not engage in any discussion with your wife that allows for an opportunity to “admit” bad behavior on her part. I think you are too emotionally raw to handle anything she would say. And I think you will trigger you the minute she doesn’t tell you what you need to hear.
It is also my opinion that neither of you should discuss your marriage without a trained professional navigating the reconciliation process with you.
I remember that day, 8 years ago last month, like it was yesterday.
My drinking had gotten out of control. I wasn't doting on her like I used to and her primary love language is acts of service and she was practically begging me to "serve" her but I was too drunk to hear her. I was so in love with her then and I'm so in love with her now but I was a total mess. Looking back, I can see how much she truly loved me and she tried so hard to make me happy I just could't see it then. I see it now. We wanted to have kids and build a family and it seemed like she couldn't wait. Honestly, neither could I. She scared the crap out of me. She's the real deal. The one true love and the one I've been trying to sabotage and push away.
Util we met she was not the type to have a serious relationship just to have one. When we split it seems like she threw herself at the first guy that paid her enough attention.
What a mess I let this become. I let her down, I crushed her dreams, I broke her spirit.
You know, before this turned ugly, however many weeks ago, she told me more than once that she never wanted anyone else but me. I just never heard it in this context until just now. Holy crap, she really didn't. It's almost like she's saying: "Hello!?! do I have to screw somebody else to get your freaking attention?"
She has journaled before that she had so much fun with me, more fun than she had with anyone else, until demon alcohol got in the way.
Calling my sponsor, now.
"What I find interesting is you completely believe you are being her hero (you are raising your children, you are financially supporting the family, you repairing the vehicles, etc.)
So what does she want and why aren’t you hearing her?
And, more important, how long has she been asking for a hero and how long have you been deaf to her voice?"
I don't know. I don't want to be deaf anymore.
She wants me to treat her like I did before my drinking took over. She wants me to treat her like I did when I was chasing after her. She want's me to serve her and help her and have true concern for how her day went and and whats important to her. She loves talking about her day in complete sentences describing every stick of gum she chewed and step she took and all she wants if for me to share that with her. And I F'd it up.
I was already a boiling pot of emotions tonight and you just hit me right between the eyes, Hope. I don't want to fail her anymore and I don't want to lose her, again.
She asked me tonight to give her an "act of service" and be her hero. And I plan on doing it.
I went to church tonight. I made the mistake of looking to see who else was there, and I saw a man hug his wife. Somehow that hit me very hard and I began to cry, so I left early and came home. I was there for less than 30 minutes.
I wish I knew when those types of feelings were about to hit. It would be so much easier I think, sometimes, if you knew it was coming. I still pray for you , wet, fundad, and others often.
I wish I knew when those types of feelings were about to hit. It would be so much easier I think, sometimes, if you knew it was coming. I still pray for you , wet, fundad, and others often.
Thank you, Jefe. I do appreciate your prayers. I continue to pray for you and many others as well. I pray that God will bless all our efforts and give us the faith and strength to see it through.
Hope,
You were commenting on the fact she asked me to file the divorce papers and what my first reaction to that was.
Is there something there you specifically wanted me to see or were you merely pointing out the fact that if she seriously intended to be divorced she would find a way?
Yes, Jefe there was something specific I wanted you to examine when I asked for your first thought to the following paragraph. Thank you for asking.
Here is what I wrote:
“When someone wants a divorce they file for a divorce and the LBS begs them not to do this. But not only does your wife keep threatening to file a divorce (with no follow through)--Now she is demanding that you to carry out her threat.”
I asked:
Is your first thought to the paragraph above, “She did that because she can’t afford to file.”
Because your first thought should have been:
“Hey (or OMG!)…I didn’t even realize she was asking me to carry out her threats!”
But you didn’t have either response.
You said:
”My initial response to the ‘divorce’ statement was that it was just another idle threat meant to wound me for the moment.
This tells me you are still 100% focused on you. Your pain. Your issues. What she is doing to you and how this is affecting your life.
DBing cannot be effective until you stop focusing on everything your spouse is doing wrong and make changes that brought you and your spouse to this point.
You are a wounded animal. And you are waiting for her to heal your wounds.
If I can see this so can she. The problem in your marriage is she is also a wounded animal and she is waiting for you to heal her wounds.
Someone has to give in first or the marriage will collapse.
The reason the first break up is so significant is because you should have stayed broken up. While you were apart she got pregnant with another man’s child and you were still married. Logically, you should have been working on saving your marriage and she should have bonded with the father of her child.
But, the two of you reunited. Your wife’s behavior runs contrary to normal female behavior. When a woman becomes pregnant while in a relationship, instinct drives them to nest with the father of the child. Women do not spend years working on a relationship with another man unless she has a stronger bond with that man.
This tells me she was more emotionally invested with you. So the next question I ask is: How did the initial break up occur? Usually if both parties are in love the normal progression isn’t to break up.
Unless there is an imbalance of emotional power it the relationship…which there was in your case. You were married. I’m sure this was very frustrating to her.
Here is my hypothesis (please correct me if I am wrong):
The longer you were involved the angrier she became that you were not divorced. You tried to explain the roadblocks but she felt you were being deceptive. Her response was to lash. When she lashed you withdrew. When you withdrew, she lashed more, which made you withdraw even more.
She finally gave up and left the relationship. When she left the relationship it also meant she stopped lashing. This made you stop withdrawing. When you aren't withdrawing you are able to give her attention. She allowed you to give her attention. When she allowed you to give her attention you were able to connect. When you were allowed to have a connection with her you took the opportunity to re-bond. Once you bonded…then you reunited.
If I am right…This is your dynamic again.
Believe it or not…You are the person who taught her that she has to leave you, find another man, date him and develop an intimate relationship. Then, after she has done all this…you will put forth the effort to “win her back.”
This is why I encourage you to change your behavior by using the 12-Step Recovery program and discussing your faults in the marriage.
She needs to know you recognize many of the problems in the marriage are your fault and she was a contributor to the good things in your marriage. She needs to know she has value--not because other men find her is attractive--but because she is your lifetime partner.
Good evening, Hope.
Yes, she wanted the divorce from my ex to happen ASAP. We had been together about 7 months and had been courting a little longer and she wanted kids so bad. She was ready to settle down, with me. I wanted it too. I just procrastinated about the divorce (It gets me in trouble with her a lot, I mean A LOT) and never explored it. I have a tattooed wedding band and she wanted it lasered off... Yes, you are pretty much spot on.
When she left, I pursued her HARD, and ended up pushing her away. So, I worked on me (not far enough, though). She called me about a month or so into her new relationship and wanted to know how I was and let me know that things were going poorly with new guy (5 years younger than her). She wanted him to go to church and he flat refused. I took this as an opportunity to get my foot back in the door and started to send flowers, and cards. I visited her mom at the restaurant she worked at and had dinner (Mom always like me and didn't care for new guy) up to the point when new guy called me to scare me away. Didn't work.
She was going to stay with him but he refused her and she didn't try real hard. She was only pregnant 4-5 weeks and we got back together Jan 24, 2007. She ran back to him (Feb 3) because she was confused and I wasn't fixed all the way and tried to reconcile it with him but he denied her. She went into deep depression because she thought I hated her and didn't want her and that she had destroyed the relationship totally. She could't believe that I still loved her and wanted her (her words) and we were married May 25th.
This is the same guy she just had the inappropriate EA relationship with. IS she using this to get my attention?
On the outside it seems dumb, I guess. The dynamics and how we got together, I mean. I never stopped loving her and I guess from what your saying, she loved me from the beginning to. I just couldn't see it until now that you pointed it out. Wow! I freaking blew it!
Yes, I see now that I broke her heart and I want desperately to heal her wounds. I want my marriage and I want to value her and focus on her needs and not mine.
If I understand you correctly, you are asking to to totally let go of my hurt and how I "think" I was wronged and just love on her and heal her. Forget all of the rest and focus my energy on what I've done, only.
I'm in.
More things becoming clear.
She's doing all this "mean" stuff (consciously or not) not as a way to stick it to me because she's angry, but to get me to drop my wall and come after her.
Damn what a self centered SOB I am.
I don't think she has been trying to "stick it to you."
I honestly think if you both enter into marriage counseling you will find she has felt extremely unloved and believes you have not valued her feelings in this relationship.
I didn't know you have the wedding band of another woman tattooed on your ring finger.
Let me explain this tattoo from most people's perspective:
You can take off the wedding ring you married HER with...
...but your ex-wife's wedding ring stays on your finger forever.
That is quite a commitment you made to your ex-wife. You must have loved your ex-wife very much to make a commitment that has lasted this long.
The problem with tattooing your ex-wife's wedding ring on your finger is you can't modify it enough to satisfy your current wife. Some men try to modify the wedding ring tattoo by putting the current wife's initials on it so it becomes the "new wife's" wedding band and are surprised when this enrages the current wife.
The reason why it enrages the current wife is because it's not her ring. It's your ex-wife's ring. It is the same thing as wearing your former wedding band but scratching out your ex-wife's initials and replacing them with your current wife.
So, to put this in context, from her eyes...every day of your marriage you gave her the joy of looking at you wear the wedding band from your first marriage.
Don't you think that was a little annoying?
And before you start talking about how much you love her...stop.
If you honestly cared about her feelings you would have removed the wedding band. Without any question. Without a second thought. You cannot produce one good reason why she ever had to ask.
And, if your instinct is to explain to everyone why you couldn't remove your ex-wife's wedding tattoo-after you proposed to your current wife-so we will understand your side of the story...well...
I think that might explain how present you are in the marriage.
You have me in a corner. I have no valid excuse. Yes, it is annoying. A lot annoying, actually.
I will look into the time, process, and cost of having it removed tomorrow. I will add this to my amends list to her.
My wife has never mentioned it again since before we were married. She has mentioned plenty of other things.
"I honestly think if you both enter into marriage counseling you will find she has felt extremely unloved and believes you have not valued her feelings in this relationship"
I know this to be true. Now, how do I heal the damage I have caused? (I fully understand the 12 step approach and I am working on it starting back at the beginning)
"I don't think she has been trying to 'stick it to you.' "
I don't either anymore. You have been making that more and more clear the last few days. The statement was just reflecting back what I thought you've been trying to get me to see. I am totally rethinking my view of her. I now see her as someone that I have basically punched in the face and every action she has taken since then has been a self-preservation move or a cry out for me to see what I have done. To validate her pain and brokenness at my hands.
My sponsor and I are working towards the steps. I called him today and asked him to please help me do this a little quicker. The W seemed very interested in the fact I was working the steps several weeks back but my sponsor and I have been a little slow to connect on this. I am so tired of living this way. I am seeing my selfish, self-centered part in this. I'm seeing me, and I don't like what I see. I want to be the husband that my daughters think I am because I don't want them to marry a man like I am right now.
Hope, Thank you for helping me.
Removal:
$60/session up to 7 sessions needed based on website photos.
Making an appointment as soon as they open in the morning.
Had a very positive phone conversation with the wife this morning. She called to talk about her new job and such. I validated and encouraged. She also made a point of letting me know that she was training with a female as she was not sure yesterday which it would be. I didn't even ask or allude to but she acted as if she was answering the question anyway. She continues to talk in "us" and "we" phrases and I continue to try and not read to much into that. Very thankful to have this much. Small steps.
She is reaching out a little more each day. Enough that she has called or texted every single day, usually several times, since last Sunday just to reach out. I am mirroring and validating. No pursuing, no questions past what I might ask a neighbor.
Working on my moral inventory and thinking about how I am going to go about making amends so that it is 100% about me owning my stuff, making amends to her, and repairing the damage I have done and nothing else.
Any suggestions, tips, 2X4's welcome.
Jefe
Catching up on your sitch ... looks like you have had a eureka type moment. I would pursue that tattoo removal, do not talk about it .. just do it. Sounds to me like you are on the right path, her talking and connecting with you about the job is a good thing. Connecting is the hardest part for me, and its tough when we can not pursue, so yes .. all we can do is mirror and looks like you are doing well there.
Thank you CG. I have a very long road ahead of me but I'm glad I finally see. I have prayed for clarity the last several days. I got Hope414 and much clarity. God IS good.
I have no plans of telling her or tricking her into noticing it or any other passive aggressive maneuver. I'm trying to figure out how to hide it, actually. It is not solely for her. Hope is right, I should have done it years ago at the very first question about it.
I haven't spoken to my ex in many years but last I heard she had had her's re-tattooed many times. Not for me anymore. I'm done with the whole tattoo thing and I'm done with her. I was husband number 3 for her, I think she is on number 7 now.
I'm married to the wife I want. So in some respects, I am a very lucky man.
Jefe. Sounds like your making good progress and that looks like some excellent guidance from Hope.
Forgive my ignorance but 12 step program? What is it and how does it apply?
Hi Jefe, I’m proud of you for addressing the tattoo issue so promptly. But please keep in mind there is more to this process than removing the tattoo.
Please focus about why the tattoo is important.
You said, “My wife has never mentioned it again since before we were married. She has mentioned plenty of other things.”
The reason this sentence is significant is because your first sentence says you did not provide a safe environment for your wife to discuss issues of emotional importance. Your second sentence says your wife made other complaints--which I assume had lessor emotionally components. You don’t elaborate but my guess is these things were probably minimized, argued, or ignored.
Removing the tattoo doesn’t have significance unless you also explain you are doing this because you finally understand that ignoring her feelings was wrong. And you are removing the tattoo because it matters to her and because it matter to you.
Because you recognize that you are no longer married to your ex-wife--You are married to your current wife. And you do not want to wear a symbol of love and fidelity to your ex-wife.
And…yes…this gesture is too little too late.
And…yes…this gesture should have been done before you were ever married.
And…yes…you can understand the deep pain you caused by not doing this. If she had done this to you it would have drove a deep wedge into your marriage.
And you ask forgiveness for your insensitivity to her feelings. You are taking steps to remove the wedding band now. Maybe later you both could discuss tattooing rings on your hands (you aren’t permitted to give your ex-wife something and not extend the same offer to your current wife).
But the point of removing the tattoo is not to remove the tattoo and suddenly the problem resolves.
The point of removing the tattoo is to recognize a hurt you caused and then ignored. The tattoo is only one of a hundred things that went wrong in your marriage. But it was so glaring it was easy to immediately focus on.
Most difficulties in marriage occur when words and actions stop lining up. Then, when we finally do something to line up our words and actions, we expect our spouse to reward us.
For example, you have been saying “I love you” to your wife while keeping your ex-wife wedding band tattooed on your finger. Your words and actions have not lined up during your entire marriage.
So when you finally remove the tattoo you should expect your wife’s reaction to be indifferent or angry instead of excited. But as time moves on and she realizes more of your actions are lining up with your words…she will trust your words.
To respond to Jim0987, the 12-Steps is a program addicts use when making amends to themselves and others as they come out of the fog of addiction.
I asked Jefe to use this with his wife because of issues in the first part of his marriage. I believe Jefe should work the Steps because he probably engaged in addict behavior during this time and wasn’t aware of it. Working the steps will help him get focus.
I do not recommend using the 12-Steps as a standard practice in marriage counseling.
Each marriage is unique and therefore marriage counseling should be individualized toward the couple.
Thanks Hope
Jefe, it looks like you are getting some top quality advice.
Good afternoon, Hope.
Let me start off by saying you and my grand-sponsor both are freaking relentless. Thank God for that too.
"The reason this sentence is significant is because your first sentence says you did not provide a safe environment for your wife to discuss issues of emotional importance. Your second sentence says your wife made other complaints--which I assume had lessor emotionally components. You don’t elaborate but my guess is these things were probably minimized, argued, or ignored."
My grand-sponsor and I identified this fact that I have not been providing a safe haven for my wife to discuss things and feel safe, last month. It has been a huge issue that has compounded itself over time. I definitely have shame and guilt about this. And yes, plenty of other concerns have been brushed off and minimized. My wife has such a diametrically opposite personality to that of my ex. She placed such high demands on things to better me and to better us, because she absolutely did care. In return I acted like a child and and addict. So I have a ton of work cut out for me in the moral inventory and amends department.
As for the tattoo removal, I know it's too late. I know I should have, and I have zero expectations about her reaction to it other than I think there will be some anger. Especially when the discussion turns to why I chose to do it now, finally.
My wife attends Al-anon regularly and has a sponsor and I just left an NA meeting 20 minutes ago so this will be something she can identify and relate to.
Jim, I truly believe I am too. Here are the steps if you are interested:
Twelve Steps
Jefe, just wanted to let you know I'm checking your thread, too. Don't have much to add to the good advice you certainly seem to be getting.
It wasn't an ex's wedding band - but I did a similar bonehead thing. W wore same perfume and body powder as my first fiancee' (who I didn't marry.) It's expensive, and she just bought a brand new set when we were dating. When it ran out 1 1/2 years later, she said that she was going to buy some new.
I said, please don't. And told her why.
She exploded. She said "I've been wearing this every other day or so for over a year, and it reminds you of your ex - the one you chose over me in high school?" I said, well, you love it, and I didn't think it was a big deal...
Yeah, they (WAGs) take this emotionally connected object stuff pretty seriously.
So, W stopped by after work (8pm) to see the girls for a minute. I thinks I just picked up on something. Its us together as a family or being in the marital home that seems to agitate her the most. He didn't stay longer than 5 or 10 minutes tops. It always makes D5 very sad afterwards. This is the part that drives me up the wall.
For me I hate the weekends too. Wondering where she is, what shes doing. I seriously think this new job of her's is going to make her way too tired to do anything, though.
Re-focusing on myself.
While she was here we were talking about money and I found some of my old behavior creeping in and I got a little snippy. I quickly caught it and apologized. Made me feel good.
More pointless blogging.
Ugh. No sleep has become my best friend and then when I finally do get some sleep, the dreams. I went to bed at 9:30 last night and my body feels like I stayed up till 3. Head just full to the brim with worry, fear, concern, mourning, and pain. Then there's the shame, the regret, guilt, sorrow. Then I reread things like that last sentence and think, oh how melodramatic. Get a grip dude.
Going back to bed for 2 more hours of blissful nightmares.
There are days like today where I replay the night I found the texts over and over again in my head. I start feeling sorry for myself. Then I think about all the crap I've done to my wife over the years. I wonder what she plays over and over again in her head. I wish I could magically take it all away.
Hi Jefe, stay off of the "what is she thinking" mindset. It doesn't help. How about thinking more about your daughters?
I also wanted to mention how much you have helped many of us by being on the board. Your faith and encouragement that you provide to us is a wonderful thing. Thank you for being here. I hope (and pray) that you have a better rest of the day.
Hi Jefe,
I know it gets difficult. You wish you could be in her mind to verify the things you are doing are working.
What made me become involved with you posts is because I saw you had a very strong love for your wife. But I also saw you were at the same dangerous crossroads as another blogger.
He bemoaned his situation and wished he could "go back in time" and start over again. What he couldn't grasp was every day is a gift. The gift of time. He had the power to change the future.
Other people's choices give us a glimpse into our future. Maybe it would help to read his blog. He's gone now. I assume that when his wife didn't heal his wounds he quit the marriage.
Maybe his blogs might help you see how far you have come. You can read them under Bob1967.
Hope,
You have poured out a wealth of information. So much so, that I have to re-read and re-visit the posts often to make sure I have captured and understood all you are trying to tell me. I realize that "I" am the problem in us. I am committed to changing whatever I have to.
I'm still digesting this:
"Here is my hypothesis (please correct me if I am wrong):
The longer you were involved the angrier she became that you were not divorced. You tried to explain the roadblocks but she felt you were being deceptive. Her response was to lash. When she lashed you withdrew. When you withdrew, she lashed more, which made you withdraw even more.
She finally gave up and left the relationship. When she left the relationship it also meant she stopped lashing. This made you stop withdrawing. When you aren't withdrawing you are able to give her attention. She allowed you to give her attention. When she allowed you to give her attention you were able to connect. When you were allowed to have a connection with her you took the opportunity to re-bond. Once you bonded…then you reunited.
If I am right…This is your dynamic again..."
This is EXACTLY what happened and what is still going on.
"She needs to know you recognize many of the problems in the marriage are your fault and she was a contributor to the good things in your marriage. She needs to know she has value--not because other men find her is attractive--but because she is your lifetime partner."
Yes.
So as I go about making these amends I am overwhelmed by the amount of steps and things. I fell like we need to talk about the business and me securing a full time job first then approach her with the amends for the beginning of the relationship. Or maybe not.
I plan on having employment similar to what I had before no later than the first of the year. And trust me when I say I am so ready for this to happen. She's not crushing any dream at all. I want my happy family back. The financial instability is killing her but the insanely long and unpredictable hours are not helping either. So much so, her current job choices, consciously or unconsciously have put huge limitations on the amount I can work past certain boundaries. I hear her. I want it too. We are big Dave Ramsey followers and since we started this business we have gotten about as far away from those principals as ever. Time to stop this and focus on her needs.
I feel like I need to act soon either way. I know this needs to be done in person and by phone if absolutely necessary. I will be working with my sponsor on this as well.
Wet, thank you. Seriously.
Hope, we cross posted. I didn't expect you this morning.
Yes, I read some of his, I will delve deeper for sure.
I'm not waiting for her to heal my wounds any longer. I am focused on healing hers. I am the spiritual leader of this house, I need to act like it. God will take care of me, my job is to take care of her.
"God will take care of me, my job is to take care of her."Jefe, I think this is the most wonderful thing we can see a man post on this web site.
Because of your strong Christian faith, I encourage you to visit Jimmy Evan's web page if you haven't done so already.(
http://www.marriagetoday.com/about/jimmy-karen/)
I also encourage you to visit the Family Life Today web site (
http://www.familylife.com/)
Both these pages have a strong anti-divorce message and tools for men trying to save their marriages.
Have a great day!
Thank you Hope. Your opinion means the world to me.
OK, More blogging,
So I hate having to read non-verbal language, but sometimes, that's all we're left with.
Last night the wife was texting with some worries about her new job. She goes out on her own tomorrow and just wants to do well, make sure she has everything she needs, that sort of thing.
The W came and got the girls this morning for a birthday party that I was going to take them to but she decided she wanted to make time and take them.
When she got here she threw a load of laundry in and asked if I could put them in the dryer when they were done. One of the things she texted about needing was a window mount phone cradle for her Phone/GPS, like the one I use. I took mine off my truck and gave it to her this morning.
While there were gone she texted to make sure I didn't forget about her clothes (she needs them for work) texted:
W: "are they dry yet?"
M: "Yup and folded."
W: "Ahh thank you"
So this was an interesting exchange.
When she walked in from the party she thanked me again for her clothes and ran her hand across my chest on the way down the hall. Later in the kitchen, we were standing about 8 feet apart talking about her job and stuff when I took the opportunity to mirror her physical touch and walked behind her and started to rub her neck and shoulders. She responded by leaning back into me and putting her head on my shoulder for a moment or two. She even let me plant a soft kiss on the side of her neck. When she stepped and turned around, she looked at me in a way I haven't seen in a while. As she left, I noticed she was parked in the driveway, something she hasn't done since this whole thing got stupid the beginning of Sept. She usually parks far down on the opposite corner of the house. Most of this may be nothing, but it makes her seem a lot less alien to me for the moment.
What do I take from this? IDK
She reached out, I reached back.
She spoke to me in my LLs, physical touch and words of affirmation
I responded in her's, Acts of service - Laundry, (The cradle was part gift and part service, the back rub while physical touch, it's an act of service for her with the massage part)
At the end of the day where does this leave me? I have no freaking clue. But I want more of it.
Well Jefe,
I wasn't there but it sounds as if you took the lead to serve your wife. This made you her hero.
You can tell she saw you as her hero because she made a non-verbal romantic gesture.
Instead of analyzing her actions and leaving her in an emotional wasteland..you returned her affection and you both had a romantic moment.
I say you did a great job today.
Do you plan to see her tomorrow at church?
She will be coming by tonight as soon as she gets off work to get the girls to spend the night. Then she will take the to church in the morning and I will take them home after.
She almost was going to go to the same service with me tomorrow but she changed her mind. But yes, I expect I'll see her tomorrow at some point.
Your wife is spending the night?
LOL, no, she was going to pick up the girls to go spend the night with her. But sadly that plan changed, like I already knew it would before she even went to work.
Damn, I wish she would spend the night.
Glad you clarified this.
I almost responded like a frat boy and said "SCORE!"
OMG, Hope! That's the best laugh I've had all day. I was getting a little randy just rubbing her shoulders. The poor girl wouldn't stand a chance if she spent the night.
I wish we were to that point. This king size bed gets very lonely most nights.
You know, Hope. Thank you for showing me that she really has loved me all along. I think I was either missing that or had clouded it so badly in my head that I was just not seeing it.
Then it ends up being a self-fulfilling prophesy. I felt unloved and acted more unlovable. Dumb.
...I really had no idea where our relationship was going in the beginning, I was just having fun being with her. She made me feel so alive and complete. Then May 20th, 2006, we were on our way to a party. We were in her car, she was driving. She turned and looked at me and I was done. Finished. Head over heels. Tinglies shooting up my spine, the whole nine. I can still see her face and smell her perfume...
Just before this separation turned sour she sent me a text that said, "You know I love you" and I responded, "No, I don't know that".
Guess I need to repair that too.
This is so encouraging! Nice job Jefe. I'm not sure what she is thinking about more, the nicely folded cloths, or the loving shoulder rub. Probably both. :-)
FD
Thank you FD!
She just called. She was just now getting off work and called to tell me how it went and what she planned on doing with the kids tomorrow.
Trying hard to not get my hopes up but enjoying every moment at the same time.
Look at Jefe, making progress. Very cool. Sending prayers up for you. Have a very blessed day tomorrow.
One step forward twelve steps back.
What a tense few exchanges we've had today. Not looking forward to her coming back with the kids in an hour.
Sorry to hear that Jefe. Try and dig extra deep for pleasant detachment...it takes two to have an argument. You don't have to be one of them....
Hope things go better when your W gets back :-)
Well, she didn't come in when she dropped the girls, just called for a second afterwards to make sure they got in and to hear my voice I suspect.
Let me follow up with the events that transpired last night. Then I will fill in as much of today as I can.
She has been planning all week to pick up the girls after she got of work yesterday so they could spend the night with her and my MIL. I have been apprehensive about this for 2 reasons. One I was trying to determine of what value this visitation was going to be because her shift was from 3:30 pm until at least 7:30 or whenever her route was done. By the time she picked them up it was going to be bed time and they were going to get up and head straight to church this morning, so why bother? Second, I knew there was a high likelihood that my wife was going to have to cancel the night and that was going to crush my girls leaving me to deal with the broken hearts.
Well, she texted and called around 8 saying that it was not looking good. It was a pleasant conversation and I said no problem I'll let the girls know. I did and as expected they were very upset and disappointed. I let them stay up and snuggle with me past bed time and got them down.
Wife called around 10:45 to chat and let me know that she was just now half way home from work and that she was not going to church in the morning, she wanted to sleep in. Again, it was a pleasant conversation and I was very happy that she took the time to call.
This morning we got ready and went to church as normal.
She texted just after I got to church:
W: How did it go this morning?
M: Fine
She texted a bit about her money concerns while we're waiting for a couple of checks from customers.
Then a little later I get:
W: (D5) is crying for me in her class can you go get her please
M: OK
I left service and grabbed my daughter who was just sad and was missing mommy. I got her a snack then the wife called asking about things and wanted to talk to her. They talked for a few minutes then she hung up.
I was planning on taking D5 back into the service with me but the wife called and said: "Did you get her back to class already?" I said no, "Why not, I told her to go back to class. Would you please get her back to class and call me back when you're done, geeze."
I apologized for not realizing that that was the plan and got my daughter back to class. The subsequent phone call was an angry mess of the W blaming me for not telling her last night that they were upset. I asked why she was so irritated with me and she said because she had to work late last night. "And that makes you mad at me?" yup, was her reply. She went into how it wasn't her fault she was late, and all the problems, how it wont'e be like this every Sat, etc.
I get it. This is the very scenario that Hope described of the lasher. I'm just lost on how I could have handled it better and been her hero for the day. When she hung up on me, I sent the following texts:
M: I'm sorry, I hear you. You've got all your stuff now and it will be better next time. I'm not picking at you.
W: Exactly it was out of my control not on purpose.
M: J*******, I didn't blame you. I know it was out of your control. And that must have been frustrating.
M: I didn't tell you how sad they were when you called the second time last night because I figured you were already having a tough time and I didn't want to sound like I was picking at you. I'm sorry, next time I'll tell you.
She came by after church to send an hour or so with them before she had to go back to work. She had mentioned last night that she would just take them to the park and have a picnic lunch.
When she got there I was making the picnic for them all. I had even stopped by the store and got mommy's favorite cookies. Nothing I did suited her. She wanted to know why I was making a picnic because she had other plans. I said: "You told me this was your plan. Ok no problem we'll skip that are you going to feed them because they're starving?" Then she told them to hurry up and eat now. Then it was never mind just finish making it all and we'll have a picnic. The whole time she's lashing at me.
Detach, detach, detach.
Hope, if you read this. This is exactly as you pointed out and this is where I normally withdraw. And so the cycle starts. I don't want to do that this time.
It sounds as if she is acting out and testing. It's actually a good sign. Because it probably means she is wrestling with emotions. She needs to know if your change is genuine or fleeting. If your change is fleeting you will revert back to your old habits and she will know not to become emotionally invested. If your change is genuine she will begin to accept it.
She has been with you for a really long time and seen you "change." She has a right to be suspicious and test the waters. You should want her to do this. It's a sign of emotional stability. Someone who is not emotionally stable would jump back into the relationship without giving it much thought. The shear definition of insanity.
Respect her anger. She has a right to anger. Anger shows emotion and passion. I would be more concerned if she wasn't angry and lashing.
What I don't like is your wife taking it out on the children. Lashing at you is one thing. You are her partner. This is what you are there for (to catch her when she falls)
Lashing at the children is unacceptable. As the head of the home it is your responsibility to take your wife to the side and gently point out that your children are not targets for anger--for either of you.
Lock this down now.
Be loving. Be gentle. But be firm.
Your daughters are learning how husbands treat their wives by how you treat your wife.
And your daughters are learning how mothers and fathers treat their children by how you both treat them. Children do not forget. To the contrary. Children are sponges. They absorb.
Your wife should be reminded that you both have a shared goal: To raise wonderful, well-adjusted children who will also raise wonderful, well-adjusted children.
This will not happen if their parents are not keeping promises and disrupting their lives by ruining family gatherings like picnics.
Small moments have lifetime consequences. Ask her to please respect your children's right to a peaceful home during this time of turmoil.
Took the girls to the Fall Family Festival at our church today. We had so much fun. What a blast. D5 won 2 cakes in the Cake Walk, loads of fun.
W had to work today, maybe just as well since she still seems uneasy in total family settings. She did call and text needing some help finding an address for one of her stops, this afternoon. I appreciate that she needs me and calls me first and I feel good be able to help. I guess conventional DB wisdom says don't answer or be so available, but in light of recent progress seems silly not to.
Good deal. Sounds like your road is not heading toward D, and that's so amazing. Nice job. :-)
I had some fun today too! Got to spend the day jamming with my son doing some old rock and roll tunes we are preparing for a concert next week.
I ran into my W at the store today. Pretty awkward checking out separately, but at least she's being civil for the most part.
Keep up the good work Jefe.
FD
I'm hopeful because you guys aren't seeing the D at the moment. Man, from where I'm sitting I'm scared to freaking death.
Cool beans on the jamming. Where's the concert?
Little just posted this meme that she found on FB on her thread, I'm reposting:
"It's become such a rarity nowadays to find somebody to fall in love with and stay in love with. People seem to forget how beautiful it is to grow old with someone, to build and witness someone's progression and to conquer obstacles as a team instead of facing them alone.
I guess it's safe to say there's not enough thrill in that for them. There's no thrill in knowing someone like the back of your hand.
I guess that's why you could say I'm an old soul. I don't need to go out all the time and switch people up every week to fulfill my bordem with temporary happiness.I always wanted something real, someone so genuine that they're worth lasting a lifetime with. Someone who's willing to invest time and effort that's needed to win, instead of forfeiting when "there's no coming back". I understand it's nearly impossible nowadays to count on someone with all your heart and soul. It's more dangerous, if anything, but I guess that's why you can count me as one of the rare ones.
I'm not just in it for "a reason, a season, or a lifetime", I'm in it for all three."
She has called almost every single day for 2 weeks straight, after work or after her evening activities. She always has some other "reason" to call, but none the less she keeps calling. \
I'll take it.
You darn sure better take it.
I've gone dark and the XW seems very happy with that development.
Hope414 certainly has some amazing insight. I am enjoying learning through the advice.
Hope414 is one of a kind. I'm pretty sure she is the direct answer to a prayer.
Jefe
Sometimes I borrow your positives just to steal some hope!! Looks like things are going well, stay the course ..My thoughts and prayers are with you and yours.
Thank you CG.
I had another very pleasant exchange with the Wife. She called to tell me that some plans had changed for the afternoon and wanted to make sure I fully understood and that she was very sorry that It messed up my day. (She hasn't been concerned about my day in months). I really enjoyed the tone in her voice and expressed concern for how her day was going to turn out.
I hope things are turning around for this family.
Hi Jefe,
Again, this is wonderful to read.
Maybe it’s time to start introducing romance back into your lives.
As a reminder, romance is selfless. Romance doesn't have any expectations. Romance is patient and tolerant. It doesn't benefit you. It benefits the person you are romancing. When you romance someone your goal is to make the person you are romancing feel loved, valued and cherished whether you gain or not.
A while back I suggested celebrating her job. Maybe you could take another look at my suggestion about a “Mommy is Amazing Dinner” where everyone gets to say why mommy is amazing.
Before you plan the evening—first ask you wife if she is available to spend an evening with you and the girls. Don’t tell her why. Tell her it’s a surprise and you will give her more details later. But right now you just need to know what night (if any) is perfect for her. Once she gives you the permission to set the date then proceed.
Have your daughters create an invitation to the “Mommy is Amazing Dinner” for your wife. It can be hand written. Computer generated. Whatever they want. Remember—it’s about their amazing mom. But make sure they do it the way they want to do it. Even if it looks messy and silly to you...it doesn't matter. This may be something your wife treasures forever so leave it alone.
Make sure the date and time is on the invitation and everyone signs it. Then have the girls give the invitation to your wife. They will love this. In fact, they will be very excited. Girls love this sort of thing.
You might want to discuss with the girls whether you want to make it a “formal” evening so they can play dress up. Now—Dress up is different than church clothes. “Dress up” is about the drama of your outfit. Let them seek your wife's input on their clothes. They know what they are doing.
This will get the girls giggling and take pressure off the evening…which is perfect because you don’t want it to be “too” romantic.
Also let the girls decide the menu.
Chances are good they will pick absolutely ridicules items. Go with it. But make sure you put something your wife completely loves on the menu as well. The girls will go on and on about how you let them decide the menu. And if they don’t give you credit for the only item you choose you can whisper to your wife, “You can thank me later for the (insert the only edible thing on the menu) later.”
If the “Mommy is Amazing Dinner” isn’t your style, think of something that is.
The point is to start engaging in behavior that make your wife feel warm, accepted, part of the family and loved by you.
Will do, Hope.
I hope I am timing all of this stuff correctly. I'm frantically working om my amends with my sponsor so I can start going down that road too.
I had a good afternoon conversation with the Wife about her new job today and and their new demands. It was nice getting to speak with her as she laughed and joked and actually received my opinion about things in a non-threatened manner.
I took the opportunity to again stress to her that I was looking for a full time job and why. It didn't come out quite as Hope and I discussed as it was very impromptu, but I think I did OK.
I told her my intentions and she said "I think that is a good idea, because it's so hard for us never knowing when the money's coming in." She said "us" and "we" so much that she caught herself and said "you". I said, no, you were correct, it's us. Then I said, "I'm sorry if I had known taking us down this path was going to make you feel this uncomfortable and uneasy and stress us both out, I never would have done it. It just wasn't worth it. I'm sorry.
I think she heard what I was trying to say. She wanted to get off the phone right after that, so I hope I didn't screw that up.
Another pleasant 15 minute conversation with the W. She called as soon as she left her league, an hour earlier than normal, too. Just general discussion on how each other's day went. That makes 3 times today. Almost feel like we're not separated, almost. We used to say to each other how weird and wrong it felt if we didn't talk to each other at least once during the day. The end of the day after getting the kids down was "our time" to wrap up the day and plan tomorrow's. It's also a time during the last few months before the S that I started taking for granted and not engaging in. I'm glad she's reaching out. I have really missed it since she took it away. Who's DBing who here?
I swear, the phone rings and I feel like a giddy school girl waiting to be asked to the prom.
Is it possible to have so many emotions co-existing simultaneously? I happy she's calling, hopeful, cautious, anxious, scared, and hurt all at the same time. Geeze.
Goodnight and serious heartfelt prayers to each and every one of you guys.
And again 15-20 minutes spent on phone this morning (I think thisis starting to become a habit) discussing kids, jobs, future...wait, what? There was actually future discussed and the words us and we were included. No R talk, just future financial situations.
I'll take it.
Now, could someone please explain to me why I'm so nervous and scared right now? I have just a general unsettled feeling and I can't stand it.
Jefe: Our Lord and Savior did not give us a spirit of fear. Embrace the emotion for what it should be - Hope.
It is scary because...what if it doesn't work? What if we slip?
Answer: You will be no worse off than you were 9/11/14.
I told Nitty this a while back, and it seems appropriate to your sitch: Know, KNOW DEEP IN YOUR HEART, that I would go to war to be where you are right now. With a shot. An actual chance. Do not let fear stop you from doing what you know you must to put your marriage back together.
Prayers going up, my friend. Have an excellent day.
And before I hit send...I think I got a quick message from above. You are to avoid "Why" questions with your W. That's it.
I think the nervousness is akin to the realization that you have a winning lottery ticket in your possession. You know you are winner, but you still have to keep it safe and not loose it. So - keep up what you are doing, it's drawing her back in. Treat the process as you would if you were keeping that ticket safe. ;-)
Shake, I know without a doubt that fear is not of him. I have prayed for him to remove this and to help me just rely on him. And you're right. Worst case, we're back at square one, and even that was not a completely hopeless situation.
I remember the Nitty conversation. I commented too. Easier to see it from the other side.
The 'Why" questions... I don't even think I could explain why I've done some of the stupid crap I have that helped get us here. I guess when I can answer that I'll have the right to ask.
Fundad, that's an excellent analogy. It's how to keep this ticket safe that has me a bit worried. I think the correct answer is: Give It To God.
Jefe ... great progress!!
Sounds like she is coming slowly out of the fog, be the rock and the lighthouse as you have been .. continue to fix what YOU control ... its working!
Wife just texted me and is pushing her latest agenda again on OM1/Sperm donor visitation. She is wanting to visit them every other week for an extended period. I called her and said I'm a little uncomfortable with this, I think it's too much. I offered once a month, She hung up on me.
I texted her to please talk to me, she said she'd call in a minute. This is a hot button issue and given why we are at where we are at, this is difficult for me to keep my cool.
I don't want to blow this, but I find the arrangement over the top.
May God guide me at this very moment... Lord, guide my thoughts, Lord guide my tongue, Lord guide my heart.
OK, I just got off the phone. It went OK. Not great, but not horrible.
Normally I would ask what you think you should have done different. Or what you think you did right. But this issue has come up before and I think it really needs to be addressed.
You need to stop dismissing your wife on this issue.
No matter how you feel about OM1—he is your daughter’s biological father. It borders on child abuse to fight a stronger relationship between your daughter and OM1--if he is genuinely attempting a stronger relationship with her. Adults make terrible decisions and children pay for those terrible decisions all the time.
To be completely blunt--Your wife should have married OM1 and built a life with him before their daughter was born. You encroached on their family. Not the other way around. So stop believing you are entitled to anything regarding his child. Just because you were given the privilege to raise this child did not eliminate OM1 from this child’s life.
I know it makes you angry when he gets the privilege of being a father without responsibility. I know it makes you jealous when you see your wife accommodating him and ignoring you. But she isn’t accommodating him as his wife—she is accommodating him as the child’s mother. And this is the right thing to do.
I don’t know what your wife said but if she wants OM1 to spend more time with your daughter and OM1 wants to spend more time with your daughter—then, doggone it, you should embrace this—not hinder it. Unless OM1 is a danger to his daughter--Any arrangement allowing for more intimacy should be embraced.
And let me be clear by “danger to his daughter.”
I do not mean you have different parenting styles. This can be negotiated.
By “danger to his daughter” I mean he has an addiction, engages in criminal activity, is (or lives with) a sex offender.
If none of these exist…then I think you need to revisit the discussion with your wife.
"To be completely blunt--Your wife should have married OM1 and built a life with him before their daughter was born. You encroached on their family. Not the other way around. So stop believing you are entitled to anything regarding his child. Just because you were given the privilege to raise this child did not eliminate OM1 from this child’s life."
He dumped my wife on the curb, twice, and went back to his ex girlfriend whom already had one of his children and was pregnant with his second. He lied to her and used her. I don't fell like I encroached, I picked up the pieces and chose to give this child a father and a home. He denied her for 5 years. She doesn't know him as her father, she doesn't know him hardly at all. Hope, I don't have the slightest idea who you are other than what I see you type but I trust you with my life right now. You say it's the right thing to do, then I give in. But know my pain also comes from the inappropriate text/photo exchange they were having in Aug, but you have told me I should leave that alone for now, and I have.
I have nothing to repair or "amend" tonight. She called and asked: "So what, are we going to argue for the next 5 minutes, now?" I said "No, we're not." I stated my position, let her know that I just wanted to heard, told her I trust she would make the right decision and left it at that.
She has called and texted since with a pleasant disposition and no further threats of divorce or other nastiness that usually follows a "bad" conversation. So I'd say I think I did OK.
"I know it makes you angry when he gets the privilege of being a father without responsibility. I know it makes you jealous when you see your wife accommodating him and ignoring you. But she isn’t accommodating him as his wife—she is accommodating him as the child’s mother. And this is the right thing to do."
I understand this, as well. She has told me more than once: "...but I married you... On purpose."
Today is the first morning in almost 2 weeks she hasn't called or checked in. The fear is running rampent through my head.
God did not create us to fear, I will trust in him.
Jefe
This is all part of the process .. push-pull ... come close-run. Remember have patience, you chose to give this to God right? Continue to let it be in His hands and work on you. Keep GAL, 180, and the PMA up.
I would point out if the OM being involved with the daughter has always been a hot topic issue and you both were able to talk about it without a fight you should chalk that up as a win. Keep calm, think big picture here .. heal and rebuild ... let God step in when he needs to.
Cali, thank you. I have read ^^^ and re-read it probably 50 times today. It has been the thing I leaned on. Some days I just need to hear someone else say it to me.
Today has been "emotional wreck/roller coaster" day, but I survived. I'm punchy, irritable and my poor girls are just being 5 & 7 but they can sure push my buttons sometimes.
I've got to get up out of myself and give this back to God. I keep trying to take it back for some stupid reason.
Hi Jefe,
I know the issue of the OM1 is a hot button topic. But this issue has been with you since the day you were married so let’s deal with it honestly.
When I say, “honestly” I want to take your narrative out of the conversation and give you a true reality check of the situation.
I agree OM1 is dislikeable. I agree that, by everything I have heard—you are the superior choice for a husband.
But—and this is a big but—You were married during your pursuit of your current wife. OM1 may have had a girlfriend…but you had a wife.
When you and your current wife (then your girlfriend) broke up—you should have gone back to your wife and worked on your marriage. No excuses. You had no right being in any woman’s life other than the woman you exchanged marriage vows with—period.
Yes--OM1 appears to have been a terrible boyfriend but—at all times--he was legally free to marry your wife. He had not promised to love, honor and be faithful until death to another woman while he was impregnating your wife.
So, by the time your current wife became pregnant with OM1’s child—YOU should have been nowhere to be found because YOU should have been busy patching up your marriage. But you weren’t. You went to your current wife and “picked up the pieces” when OM1 dump her. Your concern was not to repair the relationship with your ex but to win back the (then) ex-girlfriend who was pregnant with another man’s baby.
Do you understand how skewed this thinking was?
You history indicates you engage in behavior that benefits you. Then you justify it by vilifying others.
If you don’t believe me re-read how you justified divorcing your first wife.
You have repeatedly vilified OM1 for his actions to your current wife. And, I am not disagreeing with you. All this may be true…but even if he was the worst man on earth: You should have stayed out of it.
Because you were married. And when you and your girlfriend broke up you should have gone home and repaired your marriage. But you didn’t. You wanted your current wife.
Listen to the words you use. You “picked up the pieces and chose to give this child a father and a home.” Very noble. Except you leave out the rest of the story:
You shouldn’t have been there to “pick up the pieces and chose to give this child a father and a home.” By the time there was a need to “pick up the pieces” you should have been nowhere to be found because you show have been on the path to restoring your marriage with your first wife.
So, yes. You do have something to “repair” and “amend.”
As long as you think you did your wife a favor by marrying her you will never save your marriage. If I can see this behavior so can she.
How would you feel if your wife believed she did you a “favor” by marrying you?
Stop it.
This pious attitude is soul crushing and you need a reality check.
You think you did your wife a favor by rescuing her but the truth is you don’t know what damage you did to her relationship with OM1 by being in the picture. For all you know, if you hadn’t been there to “pick up the pieces” maybe he wouldn’t have denied his daughter for 5 years. Maybe he would have realized her value and left his other girlfriend and married her. The only thing you have is speculation based on what you believe the future may have held.
You don’t know what her future really would have been.
But if you get completely honest—you know what your future really should have been. And you know what you should have done. You knew right from wrong as a husband but you choose wrong.
Fine.
But at least be honest about your choices.
Admit you don’t know what would have happened to her if you would have stayed with your first wife. Admit there is a possibility that she may have married the father of her child. Admit you interfered in something you should not have interfered in because you wanted something you should not have wanted.
So, yes. You did encroach. You did not rescue or save.
You honestly don’t know what you did to their relationship because you haven’t been paying attention.
So take the blinders off your eyes and stop seeing yourself as her Savior. As the “better man.” As the person who rescued your wife from this awful, horrible man who abandoned her and her child.
You took what you wanted and you did it at the high cost of your marriage vows. You had the option of going back to your ex but it wasn’t an option you wanted. Divorced people fight to get their spouse back all the time. You didn’t fight for your ex-wife. You fought for your ex-girlfriend.
Have a reality check about your role. You fought dirty and you won. Okay. But be honest with yourself about it and stop pretending that your motives were noble. You waited for an opportunity to strike and you took it.
Although I think your actions were noble there is no doubt your motives were not.
You wanted your current wife and you were willing to step over your ex and anyone else to get her. Please stop acting as if there was some act of altruism behind your marriage.
Now, regarding the inappropriate text/photo exchange: To be clear, I haven’t said a word about this issue yet. I actually have something to say about this but not now. This issue needs to be addressed but this is not the appropriate time to address it.
However, I will comment about the fact that you brought it up just now: I have noticed when you feel cornered you tattle on your wife.
Jefe, I think your greatest asset is your heart. It is huge. You have an amazing capacity for love and forgiveness. If you embrace this asset I truly believe you will be irresistible to your wife.
But I think your greatest liability is the need to be vindicated when you believe you have been wronged. If you embrace this quality you will surely lose your wife.
Touche.
What on earth do I do now, then?
Soften you heart toward your wife's bad choices because one of her bad choices was you.
And thank goodness she choose you because she gave both of you an opportunity to have a life together.
You have a very valuable tool in your toolbox--the ability to push forward and steer the boat in rough waters. This is rare in today's society and extremely valuable when you have a skittish spouse.
Use your leadership skills to bring her back to the marriage with gentleness and love. It will be easy when you approach your marriage with humility realizing that she could have married anyone, but she choose you.
If you have the attitude you rescued her. That puts you on a pedestal. But if you have the attitude she compliments your life and fulfills you--that puts her on a pedestal.
And here is a secret about woman: There is nothing more attractive to a woman than a man who thinks they (the woman) is perfect. Not creepy, stalker perfect.
But the man who sees our flaws and doesn't care. The man who sees us without make up and genuinely believes we look 'cute." The man who loves the extra 5 pounds we gained because it makes us more cuddly. The man who listened to our 10-minute screaming fit, following by the 5-minute crying jag and thought we must have been adorable as a child.
I guarantee if this man is genuine he will be adored by his woman. Husbands love your wife as Christ loved the Church. These words are not random. God really does understand how to win a woman's heart.
Ok, opportunity presented itself today for me to talk to the wife. We were having a little bit of a sweet moment on the phone and I told her that I knew how important om1 and d7's relationship was to her. I told her I understood what she was trying to do and that I wanted to move that direction and maybe more. I said I don't want to fight about om1 ever again. It's just not worth it.
I prayed and prayed about what I was supposed to say and that God would help me form the words and present an opportunity for me to say it and for her to hear it. God delivered in less than an hour. My wife received it well.
Hope,I do love my wife like that I just need to get a whole lot better at showing it. This makes me so uncomfortable to make the phone call that I made but I know it's what's right for my wife.
I just went back through our portraits spanning the years since D7 was born and gathered several poses from each year and made him a package. I can't believe I just did that.
Hope, after you got done tearing me a new one, I turned Joyce Meyer on and her message basically hit me between the eyes as well.
7 times 70 times, right?
Jefe,
Did you just say you made OM1 a package of photos of D7 spanning every year from when she was born until now?
If this is what you did...this is an amazingly unselfish act of empathy to the biological father. Especially knowing how you feel about him.
I can't imagine how difficult this was for you.
Wow.
70 x 700.
Yes, that is what I said. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. I was guided and led, that's all I can say.
They are supposed to go visit that family next weekend at the park. I'll send them then. I haven't told my wife yet. I figure I'll tell her when I give them to her.