Seems my last post filled up.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2490379&page=11Had a setback last week. I admitted to padding my income so I would be able to qualify for a mortgage myself to keep the house in case we divorced. She thought I was taking income away from her on paper to benefit myself and she freaked out. It took a couple of days and showing her accounting reports to demonstrate that it was not the case - that I didn't underreport her income to overreport mine, and I think she calmed down a bit now. It was a tense couple of days, but last night seemed to be back on track - we talked and shared wine for hours.
At one point she accused me of bad behaviour and asked me to fess up to something, but I have no idea what she was talking about. I have behaved badly from time to time but until I know what incident she's referring to I'm not about to start rhyming off all my missteps. Sure I've done things I'm not proud of, but mostly it's to avoid D or to deal with my hurt.
I will continue DBing and I do need to GAL. But I spend almost all my spare time with her now. Maybe I should be less available, but that goes contrary to meeting her need for quality time.
I believe her primary LL is Quality Time and her secondary LL is Words of Affirmation. Mine is Acts of Service and Physical Touch. So I'm spending as much time with her as she asks for and always building up her confidence and self-esteem whenever I can. She keeps saying that in the past she felt like she was unimportant to me. Now instead of denying that, I just tell her I'm sorry if my past behaviour made you feel that way, I have left that part of me behind and will continue now to behave in a way to make you feel that your are the most important person in my life, which you are.
Things seems to have gotten better this week again. I laid out all our finances and said I would correct anything that required correction on the monetary side of things. She seemed to be ok with that.
Tonight we were having a good light conversation over a glass of wine. She gave me her foot to rub & I obliged.
Then she changed her direction and said "there's something I need to tell you but I don't know how and I don't think I'm ready yet because I still have to work it out in my head." So I told her, whenever you're ready I'm listening.
She said it's about my behaviour - that I have to grow up. I told her I was working on self improvement and self-awareness and every day is a school day for me.
But I didn't probe any more into what she was referring to. I'll just have to wait until she either finds a way to tell me or she decides it's not important enough to make an issue out of.
(I sometimes feel like asking if she's still in touch with OM and ask to see her phone if she denies it, but I think that would be highly counterproductive)
Then I reiterated that she is the most important person in my life and that I want us to grow old together. I told her she was the love of my life, and that she used to say I was the love of her life, and that I'd like to get back to that point. She said there's a lot of work for us to do to get there. I said I know and that I'm willing to do the work, but I'll be patient and wait. When she's ready I'll be there for her.
Hey Peter, I saw your message for me to drop by. Did you have something specific in mind?
I tell ya, you deserve an award for hanging in there like you have! I also read your posts to others and believe you do a great job encouraging and guiding newcomers.
Hi Sandi. Thanks for the compliment. I often find the best way to learn is to teach.
My W said back in July or August that she wanted to tell me something but couldn't. She said that again last week. That she is trying to get her head around it, and can't tell me.
This has me thinking that she's planning on D or getting back with OM or other such things that I fear. (mind reading) When she does say that, I just tell her, whenever you're ready, I'm here to listen. But I'm jumping out of my skin.
Should I just be patient and wait for her to spit it out or should I say something to coax it out of her.
I would not try to coax her.
Why would she say it had to do with your behavior if she was thinking about D or OM? Doesn't fit.
I know, it drives me nuts for someone to hint at something they want to discuss later! Why would she even bring it up? Is it her way of preparing? For what? Who knows! May be another one of those issues in the past she still holds against you. That would be my first guess.
I think the "my behaviour" thing and the "there's something I need to tell you" thing are 2 different issues. But who know.
Yeah, it drives me crazy.
Oh, well that doesn't sound good. But maybe I am just thinking in negative terms. It still sounds to me as if she's telling you to brace yourself.
So, brace yourself Peter. (hugs)
I think she's hesitant because she expects me to lose it when she says what she has to say. When the time comes, I'll be especially vigilant to do the 180 and take it in, and say something like. Thank you for the information. I need time to process this. And then leave and if I need to freak out, I'll do it in private away from her.
Then again, maybe it will be something that I find innocuous.
Who knows.
I'll just have to let the universe unfold as it will.
We'll she brought up the "my behaviour" issue tonight. Someone told her that I was on the internet looking for sex. I asked her when this allegedly happened. She said January.
I confirmed it. Yes, on Dec 30 I had decided that I was getting divorced. I gave my W one more chance by asking if she was going to spend New Years Eve with me but she declined and spent it with the OM. So that sealed it for me. I stopped all contact. I worked for 2 days on the division of assets and drafting the separation agreement, I started my new life, I made an appointment with a divorce lawyer and I went on line and joined some dating sites: eHarmony, AdultFriendFinder and F**kbook. I admitted this to her. Yes I needed to get laid.
Then on Jan 4 after 5 days of NC, W comes in the door and says I think we could work this out. She said she was going NC with OM. So I thought I would give her another chance. I cancelled my lawyer appointment and we started an on-line relationship building course. I cancelled all my on-line dating subscriptions and committed to fixing the M.
Well within a week or 2 she was back in touch with OM. And the lies and deceit escalated.
So now she is disgusted at me for looking for sex on line that first week of January.
She said OM would never do that. I said, no, he's a real moral guy, stealing & f**king a married woman, yeah a real angel. She didn't have a comeback to that. But she is still disgusted with my behaviour that week. I told her I was in a messed up state of mind and she said I was just making excuses.
I told her, we've both made mistakes. Let's move forward. Not dwell on the past. We have work to do.
She's not very receptive to me at this point. We hugged a long goodbye and kissed. I kissed her again and told her that I loved her. She said nothing. but did look me in the eyes for a long 5 seconds so I turned and left.
I'll be spending the day with her tomorrow as we have things to do at the RH.
She wants to see all my receipts from the internet dating sites. I'd like to see all her receipts from her exploits with OM, but I'll not bring that up. I'm totally pissed off that she feels so righteous and accused me of bad behaviour. WTF is an A? Good behaviour?
I've gotta cool off.
If it wasn't so hypocritical it would be funny.
It's as if she is looking for things to blame you, but doesn't see her own faults. (Very typical of WAW'S, so I'd say she's still in that mode.)
I have to say Peter, you were a real gentleman in the way you handled your response. If it had been the other way around, hell would have erupted!
Funny thing is, that week I was looking on the dating sites, I exchanged a few emails with a couple of women, but after about 10 emails back & forth I clued in that they were both lying to me, faking who they were and where they lived - fake photos and all.
After having been lied to for the previous 8 months, needless to say I was totally turned off by that experience.
True. I can't really even bring up the A or OM without major backsliding in our sitch.
We may be getting an offer for someone to purchase the RH. W wants to sell so she can have a life & self-determination. She still blames me for forcing her to buy the place, but she was the one signing all the papers in the lawyers office. It's not even on the books as me being part owner. It's her baby. She was the one who wanted to do it, but just because I insisted on the closing date a couple of months before she wanted it, she still didn't have to oblige. Am I to blame for her not standing her ground? I would ask her that same question, but instead I'm constantly apologizing for insisting on the closing date.
I just need to draw back a bit right now I think.
I helped her all day at the RH. Now I'm back in my office after 5pm starting to run my business after a day's absence. Good thing that my business is keeping hers afloat. I don't get much appreciation for that. But that just the state of things right now.
Peter,
It was tough to read your latest interaction with your W and her perceived "scorekeeping" about you perusing dating sites while she was engaged in a full-on affair with the OM. She needs a slap on the upside of her head!
Does your W normally hold grudges for a long time? Is that typical of her?
As for selling RH, I think it is a solid move in the right direction. With the stress off from RH, W cannot blame you any longer for 'forcing' her to stay at RH and continue to manage it. I'd be interested in seeing how your sitch unfolds after the sale of the RH.
Yes, she's one to hold grudges. For a long time. Took her almost 20 years to ease up on her first hubby. Mind you he was an alcoholic wife beater, so I don't blame her for that one.
But she doesn't let things go like she should.
Every time I suggest we move forward and stop dredging up the past, she feels I'm pressuring her to reconcile, which is really what I'm doing. I hate this limbo. Maybe once the RH is sold we'll be in a better position. At least then she'll have no excuse for not moving back home. Still she may choose to just get an apartment at that point. She has talked about that.
Every time I suggest we move forward and stop dredging up the past, she feels I'm pressuring her to reconcile, which is really what I'm doing. I hate this limbo.
You might want to back off a bit on the "pressure" part and learn to live with limbo. It doesn't mean you have to like it...what choice do you have, Peter?!
Limbo it is then. Table d'hote. I'll take a double helping please. With a side of patience. And of course a bottle of Cab Shiraz. And a straw.
If you have any spare patience, please send some my way. Could sure use some right about now.
Peter,
You've demonstrated an amazing capacity to move forward and not dwell
on the past. It's unfortunate in my stich as well, that resentment and anger are held onto for so long.
Best of luck in limbo land, and welcome to the club. It's almost at capacity though
Keep up your patient progress and try to minimize your pursuit. Good luck Peter, you deserve it!
Dev
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Dev. It is a tough row to hoe.
This Saturday night I'm throwing a surprise birthday party for my W's 50th. She has no idea. I've invited all her friends. She doesn't think I'm doing anything special for her birthday. I've asked her to dinner but she's booked solid for the next week. Hopefully this will be a positive thing. Wish me luck in that regard.
Currently she is being somewhat distant, but I invited her to go to the golf driving range this evening to spend some relaxed quality time together. She invited her daughter along which was fine too. Afterwards I left & played hockey.
I think she's still a bit cool from the revelation the other night that I was on dating sites back in January. That's going to be a thorn in her side for a while. We may need to work this out with our MC but we haven't been to see her together since December, 2 days after the A discovery. Lots of separate sessions but no more as a couple.
I'm still confounded how the WAS even has the audacity to wag a finger in the LBS's face. Its a common theme all over these boards but perplexing none the less.
It's because in their mind the LBS is the one to blame for having ruined the M by not meeting the WAS's needs, so what choice did the S have but to walk away. Nothing was seemingly going to change, even though they may have been talking about the problems for years. The LBS sees their role in it (hopefully) but never thought the S would have the audacity to walk away/have an A. It's a choice the WAS made out of desperation, but it is the wrong choice. But don't tell then that. They'll have to figure that out for themselves.
Boy, boy...your W sure holds on to grudges, Peter!!! I am amazed by her inability to forgive and move forward. Pot vs. kettle...hmmmm.
Clear something up for me, please. Did she know about this back in January, of has she only found out about recently?
I was wondering if she knew the first night she stayed with you.
I don't know her, of course, but do you really think you should have taken it lying down? Then you kiss & hug her and say ILY. I don't get it, Peter. Did you apologize? I hope not, since the woman was having an A! I just have to wonder if she beats you up b/c she knows you are going to pet her and carry her around on a pedestal. She is "disgusted" with you? Even if you would not call her hand on it, why would you kiss & hug her and say ILY?
It's one thing for a WAW to hold resentment toward the LBH for the M issues, but to have an A and then be disgusted at H b/c he was chatting to women on line? I mean, she keeps doing this finger pointing all the time. Just as you get one thing settled (or so you think), here she comes with something else. Can you see her ever giving you peace.....if you continue to handle it this way? Right now, you see it as working to reconcile the M. Why would she change if/after R? In fact, I think you said she's always done this. But Peter, she knows she can. I bet you wouldn't be able to talk about her behavior, and expect her to kiss, hug, and say ILY! Perhaps it's just me, but I do not see that action as you being the bigger person. Neither do I see it drawing you closer to working this out.
I know what you've said about how she is, but does that excuse everything.....in your viewpoint? Just makes no sense that a man would put up with that immature and hypocritical treatment over and over, much less give her affection and profess his love for her. And........she is still acting cold toward you. Colder now than before she decided to discuss your "behavior". Peter, this woman knows exactly what she's doing. She sets you up for the kill, you act like a puppy dog, and she enjoys punishing you days later.
Sandi, I think she only found out about it recently, like within the last week or two. I have no idea how she found out - something about a "date" I had in the city next door (but there was no date, so her info is not very accurate).
Why do I hug & kiss her and say ILY? Because I do love her. Yeah, she does treat me like s**t sometimes. But other times she is genuinely affectionate and caring. Bipolar runs in her family. I'm thinking that she has mild bipolar disorder. With that, stress is not good. She does swing from periods of high productivity and cheerfulness to feeling like molasses and depression.
I threw her a surprise birthday party yesterday for her 50th. She was totally surprised and had a great time. She stayed over at our home last night and we slept together and held each other. But as we were lying in bed she also said she's not happy where we are in our relationship. She dredged up the past again and all my mistakes and how they hurt her and made her check out of our M. I told her that I did formally apologize for my role in it and asked again for her forgiveness. She said she was working on that. I told her I never asked her to give up her self for me, but she said I expected it. I insisted that I didn't expect it. We stalemated on that issue. I try to build her up, as she suffers greatly from low self-esteem. She says she really appreciated the party and gifts. I told ILY but she just said "I know". Yeah I know - STFU.
After coffee & breakfast she left to visit her D27. As she was leaving she quoted me that saying, "If you love something, set it free..." Easy for her to say, but how to do that while co-owning a business.
We have a real estate agent coming in tomorrow to discuss selling the RH. She said her dream was to do what she's doing but that these past 2 years of stress and disaster have spoilt her dream and she's resentful of that.
I feel like having it out with her. That she was just as much to blame for going along with me. That I'm sick and tired of being blamed for everything. That if she wants her freedom, then I'll get right out of her life, but that'll mean no more helping her in the business, physically or financially. If I were to do that it could be a major setback. She would say, "I saw this coming. Typical behaviour - you haven't changed a bit...' So maybe I should ask her, "ok, you say I should set you free. What does that look like? What do you expect me to do or not do to achieve that freedom?" and then let her define her own "freedom".
It was nice sleeping together last night in our marital bed for the first time in over 4 months. But it was cold comfort. Perhaps a baby step in the right direction, with some R talk and some cuddling. But after she left this morning, I wept.
I was freaking out a bit today, not knowing where she was and of course thinking the worst (A). I went over to the RH this evening to relieve the staff and W pulled in just as I was coming in. She told me all about her day and then asked me what was wrong. I wanted to rant but instead I just said, "I'm only trying to make things better between us because I care about our marriage. If I didn't care I'd be gone." She said she's been under so much stress for so long it wouldn't take much to make her just up and leave everything. She said she can't take the pressure from me.
Yeah I know I'm pursuing by saying "it was nice to sleep holding one another and I think we should do that more often". So I agreed to stop the pressure. I have to keep up Sandi's rules - time for a review. I ain't out of the woods yet.
But then she also said there was a time a few months back when she didn't like the sight of me, but now she feels different, that she likes me being around and enjoys my company and our conversations. I said that's progress and she agreed.
I also started to bring up something in the past and she said I thought we weren't going there, so we agreed not to dredge up the past, but rather to move forward from this point.
I was about to leave and she asked me to stay a bit longer - ended up being another hour and a half. Then I left & she hugged & kissed me goodbye.
I'm feeling a lot better now than when I first went over there this evening. Rollercoaster ride. Wheeeeeeeeeeeee!
Peter,
Your wife gave you a great gift:
She said she can't take the pressure from me.
You might want to print that out 100x and take it to Kinko's to make a large-sized banner to hang over your bed as a constant reminder to sloooow down. And back off on the ILYs and any signs of hugging etc.
Capisce?
Peter,
So many positives, mostly the one where your W said she couldn't stand the sight of you but now enjoys your company.
Wonka is dead on as usual. Keep zero pressure and keep up your other activities. Good luck as usual
Dev
Yeah. Capisce. Thanks Wonka. I reread Sandi's rules again last night. I know I need to back off. Detach. I won't turn her down when she wants a hug though. She always hugs and kisses me goodbye when I leave. But I'll let her initiate it as she does often. Thanks for all your support.
We got an offer to sell the RH and it looks like it's going to happen. W said she's now at a crossroads in her life. She's not happy with the state of our M and longs for the life she had before she met me, being single and free. She doesn't believe I've changed or that my changes are permanent. She says she wasn't happy in our M for a long time. When the RH sells there'll be a huge chuck of change in the bank. I think she thinks that's her ticket to freedom. We booked a session with our MC.
Just got back from our MC session. Things seemed to be going quite well until near the end when she brought up my behaviour that first week of January where I going to on-line dating sites. I related that a couple of the women I was conversing with ended up being total frauds and liars. At that point my W stood up and said she's leaving and that I better get real. Both the MC and myself were drop-jawed. MC eventually figured that because I was justifying my actions then as post-BD craziness and then relating that episode with the lying women that triggered my W to pack it in for the session. I'm still a little confused.
Can anyone shed some light on this?
Your W is still dealing with the situation. The problem is that what you did was just a consequence of what she started. Yet she doesn't want to take any responsibility. Boo hoo for her. It's just more craziness on her part. No sense trying to make sense of nonsense.
Thanks for the perspective MrBond.
A couple of things I told her during our MC session:
1. I don't need you. I'd be fine by myself. But I want you.
2. I think when we sell the RH it would be a good idea to get your own apartment so you can have some solitary time to yourself to recuperate and find yourself again.
I was trying to keep the pressure off. She told me before the session she doesn't want to feel forced into making any decisions, so I did the 180 and told her those 2 things.
Too bad I opened my mouth about the online women. I don't think she appreciated that. But it's her problem, not mine. I was blamed for everything that went wrong in our marriage. She keeps dredging up the past, over and over, relentlessly. And I'm getting tire of it. Beats me down emotionally. But I persist. I don my spew jacket and carry on.
Once we sell the business she'll be free with a pocket full of change and can take 2 months off to get her head screwed on straight. How she comes out of that sabbatical remains to be seen.
I'll just have to keep up with the DBing and detachment. I'm getting better at the detachment, so much so that I don't even want her moving back home, until (and unless) she has fallen in love with me again. I don't want a W in the house who isn't in love with me. Too close for comfort and non-productive. More chances for negative interactions. I'll just wait and bide my time.
It took the marriage 5 years to fall apart. With work I can only guess it'll take 2-3 years to stitch it back together.
Patience - zen-like patience. And if it doesn't happen, at least I'm a better man at the end of it all. Keeping on the self-improvement path. PMA & GAL.
It seems reasonable to be held to account about your actions when you are a married man and looking to reconcile. But these actions took place in a small window of time when you thought you were a 'single' man and that's different I feel.
That said, your W clearly has some concerns about things. I wonder whether it would help to explain to her what your motivations were at that point, what you were seeking and why.
Being desperate to get laid may not cut it - but what were you seeking emotionally at that point? It sounds as though you had hoped your W might spend New Years Eve with you and chose not to. Did you think 'New Year, new start?' Or were you seeking some reassurance of your attractiveness, or just wanted to let off some steam?
I can see it is pretty frustrating that your W has concerns, given her own infidelity - but in the spirit of honest communication, if you could help her understand what was really going on for you at that point, might that help?
I can see that at that point, you may have been facing 'the end' with no idea that your W would return just a few days later - and perhaps she might understand better if she knew how that felt?
Anyway - just a thought...hope this helps..
Hiya toots.
I've explained myself several times. On New Years Eve when she chose to be with OM (which she says I have no proof of) I decided my marriage was over. I spent the next 3 days calculating the division of assets, writing the separation agreement and booking an appointment with a divorce lawyer. And I joined up to a couple of adult on line dating sites just to see what was out there. (Frankly I was disappointed with the calibre of women on those sites). When my W came back to the house the following weekend to tell me maybe we could work it out and that she was going NC with OM, I cancelled my D lawyer appt, cancelled my online dating site subscriptions and filed all the paperwork in my archives.
I think it was 1-2 weeks later that she was calling the OM again(phone records) but I didn't know that until mid March when I happened to be going through the phone bills.
Yes, I consider New Years Eve a very important date. A time to set goals and make resolutions for the coming year. I always spent it with my W and gave her the first kiss of the year. Thinking she was giving the OM that kiss drove me over the edge.
The more I explain myself about that week the angrier she gets. So I've decided to STFU. If she asks about it again I'll tell her there's nothing to talk about - that was the past - let move on.
We spent a lot of time together today. I cooked a great steak dinner and had the family over. W helped a little in the kitchen. When she said goodbye tonight she hugged me and kissed me and asked me to text her when I got home. So maybe she has come to some sort of peace about that incident. I definitely won't be bringing it up again.
Still have to work on validating her feelings when she dredges up the past, with replies like, "Wow, that must have made you feel inferior and not wanted..." I know that's how she felt, although that was never my intention - that was just her perception, and perception is everything. I have to stop explaining and defending myself - that's what she expects and that's what continues the cheeseless tunnel syndrome. I need to do the 180 and not argue my motives and just validate her so she feels heard.
Well, looks like we sold the RH. Five more weeks.
W says end of an era. Not sure if she means running the RH or our marriage. I didn't want to ask as that would be pressuring.
She asked what I thought our chances of saving our marriage were. I told her 90 to 95%. I didn't ask her opinion (no pressure). But if I was mind reading it would be less than my estimate. Now she's saying she checked out of our marriage after the first year. Keeps rewriting history. Claims it as fact.
She says I'm just self-absorbed and selfish and shouldn't be in a relationship. She says she gave me her all and I didn't reciprocate. It's hard to don my spew jacket when I feel so demoralized. She thinks that I think I'm superior to everyone. I tell her I feel like a failure sometimes.
She says I'll never change. That she cannot see growing old with me - that she won't be taken care of.
Sad state of affairs. Yeah, I'm getting demoralized. Gotta fight to keep up the PMA. I can't show her my mood. Not attractive.
Peter,
Wow, that must've all been hard to hear, even at this stage. Her feelings are her feelings, and you can't change them of course but you DON'T have to allow yourself to be DEFINED by them. Yes, TO HER . . . at THIS STAGE (and probably not always, as she's said -- she's "re-writing marital history," and it's entirely SCRIPT as you now know) . . . it's "who you are."
But it is NOT who you REALLY are. I have never gotten the "superior to everyone" vibe from you on here, and I think you're a good and honorable man who's done his best to try to fight for his family here, and you're still fighting. I respect that. Try to remember there are appr. 3.5 billion other women on the planet who will see the good you have to offer.
Starsky
I sorry, Peter. No matter what frame of mind she's in, it still stings a little to hear.
I find you assertive, not superior. There's a difference.
Thanks for your words of encouragement Starsky & Jefe. Your support is truly heartfelt.
Tonight I spent the evening with my W working at the RH. I was upbeat and she reflected that. She even danced a little. We got a lot of work done and after I left and got home she texted me saying how much she appreciated my help and how much better she feels. And she blew me a kiss good night.
Man from one day to the next it's like Jekyll and Hyde.
At least I try to remain consistent.
I told her I'm going to drop out of hockey so I can spend the time with her. She told me not to because she may have other stuff going on and then I'll be sitting alone at home. But I think she appreciated the gesture. She's talking as if she's planning on moving back home.
I've told her she should get her own apartment once we sell the RH. So she can have space to breathe and find herself. But I think she's shying away from that. Funny - I give her the freedom - tell her to move away, and she starts talking about coming home. This 180 stuff is amazing.
I must keep up with the "no pressure" mentality. It seems to be working and I think is the only way. And I'm really detaching. I try not to let her occasional spewing deter me, although I must admit yesterday did get under my skin. Thanks for extracting me from that funk, Starsky & Jefe.
The Jekyll and Hyde stuff drives me bonkers. Keep up with the no pressure and try not to get your hopes and expectations up to far.
We were talking about where she'll live after we sell the RH. I suggested an apartment close by. She suggested she move home and I get an apartment. My initial reaction was, "ok, whatever helps you find yourself and get some peace". But then I thought about it some more and I don't really want to move out of my house.
I somehow don't trust her, thinking she's up to something, but that could just be my imagination running wild. Even if I move out for a while I'll still be coming everyday to my house because that where my business office is. And if she decides to D then that doesn't really change the financial facts.
I'd rather she just move back home - even if she takes the spare bedroom to get her space. We see each other every day as it stands now. What difference would it make if I were sleeping somewhere else? She just wouldn't hear me snoring.
She went out last night and spent the night with her girlfriends. I believe her - at least 90% anyway. Always have that nagging doubt.
I stayed at the RH. She asked me to do some work on her business but to bring my laptop. I asked why I can't just use her computer in her office and she refused. I asked her what she's hiding. She said nothing, you can see my emails anyway. Still makes me a little suspicious. Yeah, I know I have a trust issue with her. Do you blame me?
Don't move out. She wants out, let her go. Stand your ground on this one.
Peter,
Hmmmm...I find her comment about her computer in the office intresting. Makes one wonder what she's been up to at RH. Yep, stay firm on your stance of not moving out of the house. If W has a problem, then she needs figure out her chit.
Well, Wonka (thanks for checking in by the way) I think that it's more of a case of defining her independence. I spend an awful lot of time with her at the RH. I can see all her emails as they're on my server. But it does make me wonder if there are things she's hiding from me. I do have some trust issues with her.
But tonight when she came back to the RH I was working the afternoon shift, serving dinner and doing meds and she came and kissed me hello. She had a great evening out with her girlfriends and spent the day shopping. We had some dinner together and a couple of glasses of wine. Then she got to work on her employee files and then said good bye to me. But first she asked me when hockey was this week. I told her I'm not playing anymore, but she said I should - to expand my circle of male friends. She thinks it's good for me.
Funny, she complains I have time to play hockey but she has to work all the time. Then when I take over and she gets a day off she encourages me to continue the hockey.
To be quite honest, I don't really think the guys I play hockey with are guys I would choose to hang around. But I guess I could try to connect with some of them. You never know. I know a couple work at the local university where I'm a student (yeah at my age). Haven't taken a course in almost a year. I should get back to school. Just that W will see it as a selfish act.
She's a tough read. And I know her best.
She's a puzzle wrapped up in a mystery embedded in an enigma.
I told her last night that I don't want to move out. That we see each other for hours everyday anyway. She still says she needs her own space to clear her head. I said I understood and left it at that.
Then we got into the money issues. I presented the amount I invested in her business over the past 2 years. She wants proof so I have to pull all the invoices & bills & transfer docs. It's really our business, the RH, but we put the corp in her name so she would feel proud ownership. And for tax reasons. But I think she forgets that my business put up the downpayment.
The money issues are going to be a challenge. She feels that I've taken over all the accounting and have not shared it with her, but every time I tried to explain it to her, her eyes seems to glaze over and she complained I made it all too complicated. So I told her we'll have to sit down with the accountant when she has our year ends and go over everything in detail. I know I'll be paying the accountant hourly, but worth it if it gives my W peace of mind that I have our finances in my best interest.
Peter,
Hmmmm...I find her comment about her computer in the office intresting. Makes one wonder what she's been up to at RH. Yep, stay firm on your stance of not moving out of the house. If W has a problem, then she needs figure out her chit.
Ditto.Starsky
Funny, tonight we were in the kitchen at the RH with one of our employees who made a comment about the body language between W & I. I asked her what she saw and she said she saw two people completely in love with each other who would do anything for each other, and how beautiful that was to see.
W didn't comment. I thanked her for her observation & then I left to go home (get out on a high note).
It's great to have an outside perspective, especially since this is a brand new employee and has no back story whatsoever. I didn't have to say anything. I hope that gives my W food for thought. Maybe help clear the fog a bit.
I'm having a rough time dealing with an angry W. I've been at the RH almost every night for the past couple of weeks while she's out with friends. I need to be there to relieve the staff at 8:30 pm and just get settled into her room and she shows up by 9:30 or so give or take a half hour. Then we talk and have a glass of wine.
Problem is if we start talking about our R things go downhill rapidly. I'm to blame for everything. And she's angry at me because it's all my fault. I can validate her feelings without agreeing with her. But that's a delicate balance for me to effectively express.
She doesn't trust me with our money. So I need to go over everything in detail. She wants to hire someone to go over everything on her behalf. I said fine. I have nothing to hide.
She's upset that I want my business to be paid back for all the money it's invested in her business. Doesn't seem rational. But I get I shouldn't expect rational thinking. Wouldn't tell her that though, because in her mind I'm the crazy one and she's logical and rational.
After we sell the RH she is planning on going away for a few months - dropping off the grid, so to speak. I agreed she needs to do that. Hopefully it helps her. Painful for me, but I'm no stranger to pain at this point. I'll survive.
Hey Peter,
It looks like your W and my W are currently living on the same resentment and anger planet. In my case, it consumes and I'm sure as you noted your W saying, exhausts her.
I agree with recognizing and validating some of the sources of the anger. I made many mistakes and wasn't as good a listener as I should have been during my M. I have acknowledged my mistakes and taken responsibility for them. Unfortunately it's a one way street in my R.
I think our W's are similar in that they are having difficulty to move forward. The pain that they feel is real and as you point out, there is no need to argue feelings.
I would think in your stitch, completely avoiding R talk would be best. I wonder if your W has any concerns about losing you? Watching from afar, it seems like your consistently present, and you've done so much work, apology letters, agreeing to MC, reading books, and generally working on yourself on a continual basis. I just wonder if your W feels like you will always be waiting? I'm not sure, and I know you mentioned you were close to packing it in. Maybe a bit more patience and a bit less Peter? Just a thought.
In my stitch, my W thinks she will be happier and all her problems will go if I'm gone. She may indeed be correct, but if she doesn't work on herself, it's hard to succeed. Is your wife doing IC? Or are you just doing the MC?
Not meant as a 2x4 Peter at all, just been reflecting a lot.
Cheers
Dev
My W went to our MC yesterday by herself. I went today. The situation is this: My W apparently thinks I had or have an ongoing internet relationship with someone or something like that and she wants me to confess to it. I have no idea what she's talking about and she won't tell me. our MC said that she is so angry about it she can think of nothing else. And if it's true then the M is over.
Problem is I've asked her what she's accusing me of and she won't tell me because she wants me to be honest and admit to it. I have no choice but to ask her to tell me what I'm being accused of so I can at least understand where she's coming from.
I truly have no idea what she's talking about and it's consuming her.
I've asked her before and she refused to say - only saying "you know and I want to hear it from you". Bit of a standoff if you ask me. And although I see it as extremely unreasonable, she sees it as very reasonable and important that I "get real" and fess up. I just wish I knew what she was talking about.
You make some very good points. I agree about it being hard for the WAW to go forward when it relates to going forward in the M with her H.
She doesn't have the DBing language received here (I.e. The old M is dead. This will be our new M.), and it's very difficult for many of them to look at M with the same man being different Even if he has gone many months proving his changes, it is hard to trust him not to fall back into the old ways. And if her feelings of "want to" has stalled, where does she get the energy? she is scared the emptiness will remain.
Sometimes I think the WAW'S forgiveness may have be more difficult......or longer coming, than her H forgiving her of her waywardness and his self improvements. B/c of the length of time behind all that resentment and blame she held. It may seems pretty crazy to suggest such...considering the "degree" of her fall, and I don't mean to imply she's right. Just saying how it is with some. Her pain may, or may not, be comparable to his......IDK. Maybe it is differently defined. However, I do believe her journey is longer and harder. That may be argumentive, depending on the individual stitch, or VP. She has a lot of forgiving to do (of him, and of herself) letting go (of the past, the fantasy/unrealistic dreams of what may have been), repenting (getting her heart right), doing the right thing, withdrawing from the addiction of the A/OP, affair proofing/transparency/accountability, sometimes a pregnancy or STD, other fallout of her wayward lifestyle (ruined family/friend relationships), finding the energy to put the work into the M, make changes to improve the W she use to be before she was a WAW, and pray her feelings will return. Then she heads into piecing!
She doesn't have the DBing language received here (I.e. The old M is dead. This will be our new M.), and it's very difficult for many of them to look at M with the same man being different Even if he has gone many months proving his changes, it is hard to trust him not to fall back into the old ways. And if her feelings of "want to" has stalled, where does she get the energy? she is scared the emptiness will remain.
Sandi2, where do they get the energy? I know my W wants to work on our M, but she says she doesn't know how.
Your words about the WAW's forgiveness seems to be spot on with my situation. I assume this is something she has to deal with or go through on her own. I am at a loss to help her see the new M as a new R and trust in my changes being permanent. It is disheartening and emotionally taxing to see progress and then her feelings of old relationship return and us turning back to where we started.
I have been keeping up with my changes and finding new changes that I would like to see within myself. I just don't know what else I can do besides keep up with my changes to bring us closer to full reconciliation.
Sorry, I typed out a lengthy reply yesterday, but I don't see it. So.........I will try again and try to shorten it.
One mountain most WW's have to conquer is the depression. The kind that saps her of physica and mentall energy in areas that should have her full attention. What should seem to be logical motivation.......simply has zero effectiveness on her. As a result, she is even more discouraged and questions herself.
She has to battle the depression as if it is her enemy.......b/c it is. Unaddressed, it could cause her to give up. Depression is bad stuff! The good news, however, is that it can be treated. For me, it took many tries of different anti-depression meds. Her doctor needs to work closely with her.
Therapy works well for some women, as long as she doesn't get one of those who just tell her to go out and find whatever makes her happy. She doesn't need that kind of dime store "counseling".
She needs information to understand what happened to her and what she is experiencing now. Unfortunately, there is a lot of material out there that she doesn't need. She needs to be reinforced in her decision to do the right thing.
She needs a lot of inspiration. Soul food, if you will. For some it is through their spiritual beliefs and they can get guidance from the Pastor/Priest. For some they are uplifted from music. Others benefit through reading self-help books. The caution about books and music is to stay away from any kind that feed a fantasy of a better man, etc. She will need to watch this like a plague.
She needs to have her own boundaries in place for herself. Transparency will help, but she needs to know she cannot go around people who may have encouraged her waywardness. She needs to stay away from the places she may have went during that time (bars, etc.). Don't fall back into old WW habits of going out late without her H, etc. She is still in a vulnerable condition with the depression and she wants relief some days, which is understandable, but she can't find it by taking the path she took in her WW days.
It puts the H in a fragile position b/c he wants to support and help her. However, he has to be careful or it may seem he is pushing, or trying to fix her. It's a delicate line for him. I think the most dangerous sign would be if she shows a strong resentment. If she simply refuses to get help (from some source).
How long it takes varies on the individual. But when the depression starts to lift, I believe she will be able to feel the interest and energy return. This is another process that requires time. Piecing is hard. It is challenging.
Oh btw, during piecing is the time to be friends! Her sexual desire may not return right away. Don't expect her to feel the same as you. Be her friend at this time. Continue to enforce your boundaries and try to be as attractive as possible. But don't expect too much in the bedroom at first.
Have fun together and with others. Plan ahead and don't get lazy. Take care of yourself. Be charming. Use her LL.
Wow, Sandi. Very insightful. I am saving that one. I think it greatly applies in my situation as well.
Sandi-
Though I think I know the answer to this - I'll ask anyway.
You said:
For some they are uplifted from music. Others benefit through reading self-help books. The caution about books and music is to stay away from any kind that feed a fantasy of a better man, etc. She will need to watch this like a plague.
Will it backfire to suggest that the music she is listening to or the places she goes may be fueling her attachment to OM? or to suggest that this should be treated like an addiction (if she wants to quit)? Does she not realize this? Or does that HAVE to come from her - when she is ready?
Will it backfire to suggest that the music she is listening to or the places she goes may be fueling her attachment to OM? or to suggest that this should be treated like an addiction (if she wants to quit)? Does she not realize this? Or does that HAVE to come from her - when she is ready?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are not in piecing, right? The previous posts were about a WAW who is in piecing, and I don't want anyone getting confused about the difference between a WAW in piecing and one who has continued her waywardness.
I do not believe your WW is trying to obtain help from her lifestyle.
Until she goes to you, willingly....without you pushing, and says she wants to R the M and wants to know what it will take.....then she will not be receptive to anything you try to suggest to her. B/c she has to have a change of heart before she will listen to you. Otherwise, she'll write it off as you trying to control her.
No - not in piecing.
That is the answer that I thought you would give. I Guess I am at times still looking for that magic switch.
Thank you for your insight!
Well, Sandi, I'm in the pre-piecing stage right now. A has ended but W has no desire to R - says she needs to find herself.
Just a bit of a glitch. I asked her what she is accusing me of and she just rehashed that I went on line first week of January to look for a hook-up. Thinks I'm scum for doing that. Even though she was in a full blown affair at the time and I did remind her of that - "yeah I was sending winks and messages to other ladies on these web site while you were under the sheets with another man while still my wife." Needless to say that convo didn't end well. I did admit to viewing porn and she doesn't approve of that, but we haven't ML since Aug 2013 and even then she was in an EA if not a PA although I was unaware at the time.
The porn thing has been a huge issue in our M. Before we were married we were both enjoying looking a porn, but when she found out I was looking when she wasn't with me she freaked out claiming it just like cheating. I disagreed saying it was just a visual stimulant for me while pleasuring myself in her absence. She felt I was dismissing her feelings. I felt she was blowing out of proportion. But eventually I relented and stopped.
After she moved out of the bedroom over a year ago I started again - I'm a visual guy and need the visual stimulation. But now that she knows I'm looking again she says I haven't changed. Tells me to grow up.
Needless to say the convo went south last night. No hug or kiss goodbye (oh yeah, I was at home last night when she called me to come to the RH to fix the gas fireplace which had lost its pilot light, so I rushed over to fix it - that's when we had the brief but derisive convo.)
Today she drove me to a medical procedure I had to undergo and afterwards we had a lovely dinner together and she dropped me off at home, left and came back again to have a coffee with me and chat. Then she left with a kiss & hug. She's sent me multiple texts tonight and called me twice.
So it seems she wants to be friends but doesn't want to R. She has a problem with me. But if we don't talk about the R then things are good. When we do talk R then things go downhill rapidly. So R talk is a cheeseless tunnel at this time. Being friends and keeping it light and fun leads to more connection.
So when it comes to R talk I'll just STFU.
I still need to figure out how to deal with the porn thing. Maybe I should just stop viewing it. Then wait for that change to make itself apparent to her which will take a long time.
I still need to figure out how to deal with the porn thing. Maybe I should just stop viewing it. Then wait for that change to make itself apparent to her which will take a long time.
Peter, if you finally decide to do something about this, it should be for YOU. Not to get some reaction out of her. If and when she is re-committed to the marriage, then YES it would need to be a demonstrable thing you do in order to address her concern, but while she is still uncommitted to the marriage and you guys are not having a sex life? I personally don't see anything wrong with it. What does she expect you to do, go see prostitutes???
Starsky
Starsky,
You know I think you're the bomb. But I have to disagree here. He said the "porn thing" was a huge thing in their marriage, that she didn't like it and clearly it bothered her since she felt it was "cheating".
That right there was a red flag to Peter that there was an issue. He discounted her feelings on the matter. Was using porn more important than his wife's feelings?
I never had a problem with it either way until it became apparent that it was affecting my H, his feelings about me, and our sex life.
Over time, it does to many people.
Saying he is "very visual" signals that perhaps he needed "visuals" with his wife also.
I don't know, that's for him to say.
Many women find that their man looking at other women in this way is "cheating" and they find it very disturbing. If the tables were turned, how would men feel?
I am hardly a prude and have viewed my fair share of porn over the years. However, as I've come to learn more and more on the effects of porn on the brain, on relationships, on sexual expectations and desires, I can see how, for many people (though not all) it skews things greatly in favor of highly visual, impersonal, experimental sex which has as its end result the woman feeling like a masturbation tool.
I've been there. It ain't pretty.
And if porn was needed for men to take care of their physical needs, what on earth did they do before such a thing was invented? Just saying'...
I hate to disagree with you Starsky, but this is a sore spot for me, especially since his wife clearly stated that this behavior was distressing to her.
In my case, for my H to have a chance to R with me, this would have to be a porn-free house from now on. And for me to even consider moving forward with him, he would have to demonstrate that he was working on quitting porn altogether while we are separated.
My H knows he has a problem, living independently is not an excuse for him to continue his addiction (and for him, it is) if he has any idea of ever being my H. His problem is extensive enough that it will negatively impact any future R he might have with anyone.
He needs to stop, for himself. It has ruined him sexually and on some level he knows this, though is unlikely to admit it.
Please believe me when I tell you that I am not being overly dramatic here. I have 20+ years of living in a SSM that was due to HIM taking care of his needs with porn instead of with his wife. That was a real eye-opener.
---(G)GGG
I'm with GoatGal on this one. I feel like my husband's porn use robbed me of the opportunity to know what he found exciting, robbed me of excitement, and kept him from having to have conversations with me that may have initially been a little uncomfortable but eventually could have been really, really fun.
Because he kept it secret, it also set the stage for all the other secrets he kept from me, which got bigger and bigger over time. And it's not like I didn't know what he was doing. I just didn't realize the extent to which it harmed us. If I had, I would have reacted as Peter's wife did.
Give it up, Peter, it isn't worth it.
Yes. As Maybell said, a lot of the problem has to do with the secrecy of it.
And I do think that for Peter, a great 180 would be for him to quit and find healthier avenues of getting his needs met.
(No, Mr. Starsky, not hookers!
)
Letting his wife know that he understands how much it bothers her, and that he is willing to address it would go a long way with her, I'm sure.
Especially if he actually DOES quit. Wow...
What I would give to have my H volunteer to do that and pull it off!
If Peter is viewing porn regularly
and had an issue with not doing so, even when he and his W were together and he knew it bothered her, what does that tell us?
---(G)GGGPS: OK. I just looked at my wording above and started chuckling. I'm waiting to see if any of you catch it. And no, I am not going to edit it out. It was too funny!
So she was fine with porn as long as she was viewing with you but not if you were viewing alone......
It's like saying you can only eat cake if she sits there and has a piece too......
My personal opinion? You are either ok with it or your not, and your wife seems to just want to bi!#h about something for the sake of taking the guilt/blame off of her and putting it on you.
SHE needs to grow up and realize that her actions had consequences.
Everyone can blast me but I don't see how you are ever going to move past this stage as your wife seems to not have ANY consequences to her actions. She calls and you jump... and jump high and higher and higher.....
I have 20+ years of living in a SSM that was due to HIM taking care of his needs with porn instead of with his wife. That was a real eye-opener.
And I have 20+ years of living in a SSM as the high-drive spouse, so we're probably going to have to agree to disagree here, GG. I do realize that most women view this subject differently than most men, but my position on it is if it's not affecting their sex life, and you're not squandering the family's money on it, then it's not really an issue. Since they HAVE no sex life currently, and she's not even IN THE MARRIAGE, then I see no reason for him to do this FOR HER.
I did say that:
a) He should do it FOR HIMSELF if it's something HE feels he needs to work on;
b) it's also something he IS going to need to do FOR HER if and when she recommits to the marriage, because it's important to her and she's expressed that to him before.
Starsky
And also that he'll need to do for any future relationship. So would it hurt to explore alternatives now?
Starsky,
I agree with a. and b. as you said above.
However, Peter did say himself that the porn was a huge issue in their marriage before things unraveled to the degree that they are now. That, and the fact that he was dismissive of her concerns when she shared them with him.
How is that any different from other complaints our spouses had about us prior to BD?
Only Peter can decide whether or not her concerns about his porn use have validity in terms of the negative impact on their relationship.
I'm curious to see what his thoughts are on this one.
Meanwhile, I'm OK with agreeing to disagree.
FWIW, I was always the HD spouse, believing my H was LD and accepted finally that he wasn't going to meet my needs. Then I discovered that his desire is fine, he just wanted to expend most of his energy on porn.
This was even when we were first dating and I was a hot 25 year old begging him to make love to me. He was "too tired" or "not interested."
Yup. Found that out too last year.
So it is a bit of a sore topic for me.
But yes, Peter is the one who must decide if he has a problem, if it's something he can do without (because if he can't, this is probably not an issue that his W is just going to accept) and whether or not it is something that might impact future relationships.
Peter?
Starsky,
I agree with a. and b. as you said above.
However, Peter did say himself that the porn was a huge issue in their marriage before things unraveled to the degree that they are now. That, and the fact that he was dismissive of her concerns when she shared them with him.
How is that any different from other complaints our spouses had about us prior to BD?
It's not, which is why I'm perfectly consistent on this one. I also advise betrayed spouses to work on "the issues that 'sting'" (as Cadet and others over on the MLC forum so beautifully put it), and NOT on those "hoop-jumping" things that their wayward spouses might be CLAIMING are a long-held marital complaint, in some effort to woo them back. My first post on this above said that if PETER thinks this is something he should work on, he should do it. That's all I was trying to say.
Okay, Starsky. Gotcha.
So it is a bit of a sore topic for me.
Me too. We're probably the "low" and the "high test score" here.
Wow! I love it!!!
This is the kind of back and forth discussion the I find invaluable. Starky & GoatGirl, you have great points of view. Equally valid and gender appropriate. I know that women general find porn offensive and men generally say what's the big deal. It is however a very relevant topic and I think the discussion here is very productive.
First of all there are all different flavours of porn. Some is photos of naked women posing for the photographer. I'm sure some are forced into it which I wouldn't approve of, but other women do it because it's easy money and they don't mind the exhibitionism.
Then there's the live sex videos which again, I'm sure some are produced from submission of unwilling women, but there are some produced with willing women who like the money.
I do not like the subjugation of a woman's right to self determination in order for others to profit from the resulting productions, however when the women are freely participating for commercial benefit, then I see nothing wrong with the resulting productions.
The problem is how to distinguish the two. Usually you can tell, although I'm sure some subjugated women act well enough to fool the viewer into thinking it's consensual.
The abusive porn is loathsome in my opinion. The consensual porn is titillating.
However, that being said, the fact that my W disapproved of me viewing any type of porn draws me to the conclusion that I should divest of any incursions into that realm. Until I do, my W will have a problem with it.
I can't quite wrap my head around the fact that if we're viewing it together it's ok but if I'm viewing it without her it's not. Can someone of the opposite sex help me out with that one?
Because if you do it together it's an activity that draws you closer and enhances your connection. Also, she gets pleasure from knowing you chose her and not the porn star. When you do it by yourself it's like saying the connection she feels with you during sex is unimportant and all you want is jollies with any anonymous body. It demeans the sharing of her body and also causes her to question why you'd want to spend time with an anonymous naked female when you could have her. And it feeds the insecurities most women have about their bodies.
Ok Maybell I see your point. Well put.
The thing is what about when I can't have her. Like now - she won't let me touch her - hasn't for over a year (except a couple of slip ups).
I guess it's all the same. Even if I can't have her right now, I should save myself and not do it. Only once I can say I don't look at porn anymore would I be worthy of her acceptance and only then would be worthy of consideration for reconciliation.
I know even if our M ends in D, this would be a problem in any future relationship, as it seems the female view of it is fairly consistent across the board.
So I should honour myself and honour her and our M and do what's right for us. Because we need to build the "us" and having that issue overshadowing us is not just counterproductive but downright fatal to the M.
My W is absolutely beautiful and turns me on - always has. That's never been an issue. It's just I'm the HD S and she's the LD. About 3 years ago she asked me how often we should ML. I said daily - she thought that was too much - so we agreed on at least twice a week. That was too infrequent for me but I figured take what you can get and be happy with that.
But now it's never. I hope one day to get back to that point of twice weekly, but until I fix myself and grow that goal will be unattainable it seems.
I don't know what to tell you about what to do while you're not on that footing with one another. I will say, I would have had quite a lot more sex with my H if I'd felt closer and more desired by him. I'm not saying you're guilty of failing in that area -- though her complaints about the porn use suggest that impacted her sense of being desirable. But I'll tell you, the only time I felt like my H might actually desire my body was when he complained that I wouldn't let him see me naked. (I'd gained a lot of weight after my third child and felt really ugly. Didn't want him to notice.) it never occurred to me that he actually found me attractive when I felt so unattractive.
Take that for what it's worth.
My W too has gain a bit of weight however I still find her stunning naked. It's not really an issue with me. However she is very self-conscious about it. I think women's self-images are much more fragile and linked closely to self-esteem and self-love issues. By me looking at skinny young women it would make her feel demeaned by comparison - not that I would ever be comparing her. She's flesh & blood right in front of me and there's a whole lot more to love making than intercourse.
I always wanted to take it slow and pleasure her, as that would stimulate me, but she would get impatient and jump me. Not that I didn't mind, but when she complains now that I always went straight for sex it feels like a bit of a disconnect from the past reality - more rewriting of history, which is script.
Yes, as you said, my viewing of porn did make her feel less desirable, even though I desired her no less because of it, but there's no point trying to convince her otherwise. That just dismisses her feelings. I need to validate her feelings: my viewing of porn must have made you feel undesirable and that must have hurt.
"But I'll tell you, the only time I felt like my H might actually desire my body was when he complained that I wouldn't let him see me naked. (I'd gained a lot of weight after my third child and felt really ugly. Didn't want him to notice.) it never occurred to me that he actually found me attractive when I felt so unattractive. "
I could have done a better job sharing it with my wife, but ditto with her and child bearing weight gain. I think she is absolutely beautiful even more so naked.
"Yes, as you said, my viewing of porn did make her feel less desirable, even though I desired her no less because of it, but there's no point trying to convince her otherwise. That just dismisses her feelings. I need to validate her feelings: my viewing of porn must have made you feel undesirable and that must have hurt."
Absolutely. My wife made it clear too.
My W was having a girls night at the RH last night in her suite and I had worked the afternoon shift, so when I was done at 9pm I said goodbye & left. Went home, then went out to hear some jazz.
Today I told my W I went to the jazz club last night (it was one hour) and she got extremely angry. Must be nice to be able to go out whenever you want. I should have asked her if I needed her permission but I didn't want to be sarcastic.
I worked the pm shift again today and when I got home she texts me: where are going out tonight? I just said nowhere.
My MC told me to GAL, go out to the jazz club. I should have just told my W it was doctor's orders. But I told her once the RH is sold she'll be free to do as she pleases.
She's still angry. Not much I can do about it. I guess I could say to her, I see how frustrated you are with your being tied down to your job and not being able to be spontaneous. I know it's hard...
Why would you apologize? You didn't do anything wrong. Be detached and confidant. Let her worry that you're moving on.
She's still angry. Not much I can do about it. I guess I could say to her, I see how frustrated you are with your being tied down to your job and not being able to be spontaneous. I know it's hard...
I wouldn't. You didn't do anything wrong or inappropriate, and supplicating isn't very attractive. When you screw up -- own it, but in this case you were GAL'ing like you were supposed to. At best, this is a "I'm sorry you feel that way" situation.
Starsky
Yeah, she's furious at me. She's telling me to move out of the house once the RH closes. She said she's going to move me out.
She sent me a text saying I'm full of secrets and games. I denied it but she replied that that's a typical response. She thinks I went to the jazz club to pick up women. I told her I just like to listen to jazz live. She said I wouldn't have told her about my trip to the jazz club if I hadn't lost my keys and jacket there.
This fury is hard to take.
Put on your spew jacket, and either ignore or use the "I'm sorry you feel that way" line frequently. And certainly know what your legal rights are about remaining in your home.
What does "RH" stand for again?
You may also want to work on the basis that - "when you behave reasonably and pleasantly, I'll engage with you" but "when you are being unreasonable and unpleasant, I'll be more difficult to get hold of."
I'm no expert on this - but I know others have posted in this vein.....
Good luck :-)
RH = Retirement Home (i.e. old folks home)
I had a talk to our MC this afternoon. She asked W if she was permitted to tell me what I'm being accused of. W denied request but was open to a joint MC session which is being arranged for next week. So maybe we can get this issue into the open.
She sent me texts this a.m.
W: Single man going to a pub. Looks good on you. "Still strolling to see what's out there". You haven't changed. So, stop your BS.
Me: (no reply)(although I thought it was the start of a joke)
Went over to the RH for a meeting with the buyers at noon today for 3 hours. W was frosty. Had a coffee with her after, but didn't talk R. When I went to leave she wouldn't offer a kiss. Said she's disappointed in me, or something to that effect. I didn't answer and walked away. She asked if I heard her. I said yes but I'm not going to get into it.
Cheeseless tunnel if you ask me. Just don the spew jacket and carry on until next week's MC session. Going dark except for business (which is hard to do).
Peter .. you are doing the right thing .. I can relate to the hate filled fury wrath that comes when they find out you did something for you. I went to a little burger joint for lunch Saturday out in the middle of nowhere and W accused me of basically having sex on the picnic table .. I actually laughed, let all the texts blow up my phone as I made sweet love to the best burger I have ever had in my life....lol
Yeah, W said to me tonight that she'd rather get me out of her life than put up with all this anger she has for me.
I think I figured out what she's mad about, though. I get a lot of spam in my email - sexual stuff - they must have got my email address from one of those sites I went on back in January. I've been getting them ever since and I just delete them. I think that she thinks I'm in conversation with these spammers.
I went onto a website MeetUp to find some like minded folk to meet up with - one group is for hiking and backpacking which I like to do, another was a support group for divorced/separated people. I went to a couple of their meetings at a local coffee shop but found them too depressing. No idea of DBing.
W accused me tonight that I was MeetingUp with the singles scene. I guess she hasn't check out the MeetUp web site as much as she's check out my email on my computer. I was out of town for a funeral back in September and I got an email on my cell phone that one of my passwords has been changed. That can only get changed on my office computer, so obviously my W was on my computer searching for incriminating material and changed my password. I asked her about it and she denied it. Doesn't surprise me - more lies.
She accuses me of lying, but I think she's projecting.
She accuses me of being a selfish baastard. Says that as long as I get my way I'm happy. That I don't think of her. Man, what's she smoking.
She called me tonight to chew me out. We went around the circle a few times and then I said that this convo is not productive so I'm saying goodbye, have a good sleep and hung up.
Now I have to go give my spew jacket a good cleaning so it'll be fresh for tomorrow.
Hey CaliGuy, hope it was as good for the burger as it was for you.
LOL
W had asked me to provide all my bank statements and credit card statements to prove I haven't been spending money on internet dating sites. I put them all together from January thru June. The only charges are in the first 4 days of January like I had told her. One site did keep charging me after I quit but I eventually got those charges reverse and those show up in April. I included the complaint email and their apologetic response.
I put them all in a folder an left them in her mail slot at work. I didn't even talk to her or see her. It's been a quiet day. No texts from her last night or all this morning.
Then she called me on the way to the grocery store and asked if I needed stuff so I texted her a list and she bought it all for me. She needed me to bring her some stuff too which I did and then she invited me to spend a couple hours with her watching TV on her bed. I did that. She fed me - literally forking food into my mouth. When I left she hugged and kissed me.
I have no idea what's going on in her head and I'm not about to start talking R talk. So I'll just take the nice treatment and stay as detached as I can.
We have another apt with the buyer tomorrow. So I'll see her again in the morning.
Rollercoaster ride. I sometimes just shake my head. I'm not even going to try mind reading. I'll wait until our MC appt to see what's up.
I would certainly take it, Peter.
Peter,
How are you doing? Apologize if I've missed your thread moving, just looking for an update??
Dev
Hi Dev. Thanks for checking in. I haven't posted to my thread for 3 weeks. Just been working on stuff.
Starsky recommended the book Hold on to your N.U.T.s which I bought and read. Yes. Highly recommended. I've defined my N.U.T.s (non-negotiable unalterable terms) and am holding on to them. I also am trying to adhere to the BetterMen rules. It for sure will make me a better man.
I also got turned on to a personal coaching course which I'm taking through Frame Of Mind Coaching, a firm out of Toronto which I heard about through Lee Baucom's Save The Marriage website. That's helping me keep to my plan and challenging me to be the best I can be.
On the relationship front, we're selling the retirement home (RH) although the offer hasn't firmed up yet - should firm up by the 15th and will close on the 22nd.
W went away last Wed the 26th just to get away from the RH for a few days. So I stayed overnight at the RH while she was away. When she returned on Sat she was in a better mood but didn't want to return to the RH. On Sunday we had a family & friend dinner at our house. W & I cooked all day and had a great meal and a great party. W stayed over and we slept together; no intimacy but we took turns throughout the night holding one another.
In the morning she said she didn't want to stay at the RH any more. I had told her months ago that anytime she wanted to switch I would stay overnight at the RH ad she could stay at home. Well, she finally took my up on the offer and furthermore, since we're selling the RH on Dec 22, I'm now in the process of packing all her things and moving her back home. She's moving home!
She still wants to have her space and time to heal so I'm not sure what's going to happen on Dec 22 when I come home again overnight.
I work from home, so I now get up in the morning at the RH, and drive home to eat breakfast and go into my office to work for the day. She's been cooking me meals and we've been eating together and spending time together at home. Right now I'm on my laptop at the RH.
A couple of weeks ago W asked where I was planning on staying when she moved back home. I said I could sleep in the exercise room which is on the business side of our house. She didn't protest that possibility. So come Dec 22 I'll have to see how she feels. I may be sleeping with her in our bed or I may be sleeping downstairs. Still, at least we'll be under the same roof.
She needs time to heal before she can start on the process of reconciliation. I'll be patient and wait. At least things seem to be moving in a positive direction. I just have to focus on the positive.
Frame of Mind Coaching founder says, "What you focus on, grows". And I have always believed that.
Focus=Reality
I've stopped looking at porn. I'm focused on improving myself. I'm being squeaky clean, happy, joyful, hard-working and confident. If she doesn't notice or if she still decides to leave me, then it's her loss. She'd be a fool to. But that's her choice. I chose to be a better man.
Peter,
I am glad to hear that the RH will be sold soon. In my view, it will alleviate the pressure on you and especially your wife. I am hopeful that it will be the beginning of a new, fresh start for you guys.
You wrote:
She needs time to heal before she can start on the process of reconciliation. I'll be patient and wait. At least things seem to be moving in a positive direction. I just have to focus on the positive.
That sounds like a good plan. You are a good man. I can see that you are really changing for the better.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Wonka. It's been a long hard road, and it's not over yet. Hopefully we'll be moving into the "piecing" mode soon.
Peter,
Very impressive. You've got your plan and your focused on it. I like your confidence and PMA. Great to hear.
Dev
Well last night was the anniversary of me finding my W in a hotel room with the OM. She went out shopping yesterday and I sent her a text - no response. So my imagination started to take hold of me picturing her meeting up with OM. I had to distract myself - thought-stopping - played some video games, watched TV, got my mind going in another direction. At 10pm she called me all chipper, telling me about her day shopping, how her phone had died and she spent an hour at the phone store getting it working again - apparently a system wide issue.
So all is good. A year ago we were at a 1. Now I'd say we're at a 4.5 or 5. At least she's moved home. I'm doing the night shift at the RH home now, but when I come home in the morning before she gets up I make her coffee and greet her cheerfully before getting to work in the office. We eat lunch together. She cooks me great meals - she an excellent chef. We spend a lot of time together and I've now learned not to exert any pressure.
I told her again yesterday that I was committed to rebuilding our marriage. I shouldn't have said that. It's pressuring and is totally counterproductive. I won't ever say it again. She knows it. That's the third time I've told her, as if she's hard of hearing. But she knows. So I just have to see the fact that our relationship is good right now. Sure it could be better. But right now it's good and I'm going to focus on the good. I'll give her love every day in every way. Unselfishly. Caringly. Empathetically.
What I focus on will grow. My thoughts are under my control. My attitude toward my circumstances are under my control. Those are the only things under my control and I mean to control my own thoughts and my own attitude.
I'll work on myself - to be a better man. To be the best I can be. To be happy and hold on to my N.U.T.s (Non-Negotiable Unalterable Term - great book).
Peter,
I had to laugh at the "she's not hard of hearing" comment. Yeah, she HEARD you alright. She probably passed the KISS concert hearing test.
Hey, I thought the RH was put up for sale. What's up with that?
I like how you're regrouping and refocusing on what has been working so far. Keep going, my friend.
Hi Wonka. The RH is for sale but the buyer is having problems getting financing. They pushed the closing date ahead to end of January. We need more residents. I'm sleeping at the RH nowadays. W is sleeping at home - getting a much deserved break. She's going out with girlfriends and taking it easy.
I'm taking coaching from Frame Of Mind Coaching. Giving me some valuable insights. I realize that when I get frustrated at something I throw money at it. That's an escapist approach. When I told my W that she laughed and said she should just frustrate me. We had a good laugh over that.
I'm not telling her I'm getting coaching or advice on this forum. Best just do the work and let the results speak for themselves.
Yeah, I was getting frustrated at my inability to move forward in growth so I threw money at it - the coaching isn't cheap. But I consider it a valuable endeavour.
So I've come to the decision to trust my W completely: be totally trusting and trustworthy. By me trusting her completely, my thoughts will create me feelings and those feelings will create my behaviours and my behaviours will create the results.
If I'm constantly assuming she's lying and running around behind my back, my mannerisms and behaviour will reflect those sentiments and she will behave in accordance with my beliefs.
For example if one is always being accused of being a thief, then why wouldn't one steal - everyone expects it of one anyway.
I believe other people's expectations of you greatly influence your behaviour.
Therefore it follows that if I expect my W to be honest and faithful, any actions on her part to the contrary will be incongruent with my expectations and my behaviour toward her. Her tendency would be to want to live up to my expectations.
I see it in other people's sitches. They're always going on about their spouse's cheating. Almost as if they expect their spouses to continue cheating. It's like a self-perpetuating dynamic.
I'm trying this because it's a 180. My tendency is to mistrust and accuse. I'll do a 180 and trust her completely. Not saying it's not going to take some mental will power, but so far the mistrusting thing has been a cheeseless tunnel.
I'd be interested to hear the veteran's opinions on this one.
This is an interesting and very hard challenge. I accept your challenge Peter.
Let me know how it goes for you and I will do the same.
Did you accuse her of cheating before she ever had an affair? If you want my honest opinion I think your crazy for completely trusting without transparency. I think you're setting yourself up for heartbreak.
But honestly I don't agree with your decision to stop viewing porn or cave to your wife's every whim while she cake eats. ....
At some point she needs to stop putting all the blame on you, put on her big girl panties and ask YOU what it would take to have you back.
Stop being a doormat and let her pull her own weight in the relationship. You are a great guy who doesn't deserve all the blame. It's one thing to take responsibility for your own mistakes is quite another to take the garbage your wife is putting on you.
I believe other people's expectations of you greatly influence your behaviour.
Therefore it follows that if I expect my W to be honest and faithful, any actions on her part to the contrary will be incongruent with my expectations and my behaviour toward her. Her tendency would be to want to live up to my expectations.
Peter, I kinda get what you're saying, but on the other hand,
everybody here
expected their S to be faithful, and we
all were disappointed.
I think the transparency
has to be there. Whether or not you make use of that transparency every 5 minutes or every 5 weeks is where you have the latitude to show your W trust.
twinmom, she's not cake eating. The affair is over. She's moved back home. She's still fighting her demons, dealing with her guilt, I believe. She hasn't mentioned "my bad behaviour" for a month. I think it was a phase she was going through.
She's still suffering from depression which she has been dealing with for the past 5 years, clinical depression - complex PTSD. But things have been better since she moved back home. She's not as anxious and is getting more peace and healing time.
I'm not being a doormat. I'm volitionally choosing to change my way of thinking.
I never accused her of cheating before her affair.
Setting myself up for heartbreak? Oh, come on. Been there, done that. My heart's been broken for a year. What I'm trying to do is fix it. And being suspicious and untrusting has only caused me unnecessary grief and hardship. My imagination goes wild and raises my blood pressure; I lose sleep; I'm all screwed up. And then when she get's home she tells me all these innocuous things about her shopping trip and her girlfriends. So I'm getting all wound up over nothing. She was never a good liar and I got to know when she was with the OM. Every time should would have an anxiety attack right after. She hasn't had one of those since May, so I truly believe the A is over.
I'm just still dealing with the ghosts. That's what I'm trying to exorcise with this change of thinking.
As for the porn, I can do without it. Just was a bad habit. I'd rather prepare myself for the coming reconciliation and the great sex that will bring. I need to respect her feelings about porn, which in the past I didn't validate. I've read the posts from various women on this forum and I can see what they're talking about (Goatgirl, sandi, etc.)
My W is not asking me to do this. This is my own idea.
Peter I don't think cake eating has to include another man. To me cake eating is when she has the best of both worlds. Basically she has the best of you without making a firm commitment to the marriage and being transparent along with doing whatever it takes to meet YOUR needs.
You're still in db mode where she is living at home but with no commitment.
Zew, I see what you're saying, but I think by me changing my thought patterns regarding trust/suspicion the vibes I give off will have a tendency to help her be more transparent.
If I insist that she be transparent before I trust her, that's a very controlling stance. Like they say, fake it 'til you make it.
It's more my own imagination that I'm trying to counteract. My W is just trying to regain her sense of self. Every day our interactions are becoming better. We're laughing a lot together. She calls me regularly just to talk or tell me something funny. I don't start any R talks. I'm not giving any pressure. I'm speaking her LLs.
One of her LLs is words of affirmation. When she came into the kitchen today I looked at her and said, "I think you're the most beautiful woman in the world and I just love you." It just sort of came out, really easy and she said thanks and smiled. I haven't said the ILY very much recently and this just came out naturally and with no pressure or looking for an ILY back. She took it in and felt good about it.
We're talking about spending Christmas day together cooking, which is something we both enjoy. No family or friends - just the two of us. Her suggestion, not mine. I said I was game.
Moving to new post...
Continuing DBing...