here is a link to my previous thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2481881&page=9The last two days have been tough. I have gone back to having that ache/pain in my chest. I vacillate between just filing for D b/c she will not respect my boundaries (there is no transparency, she does as she pleases, still keeps secrets from me, etc.) vs. continuing this process of detaching and GAL. Ironically, she seems to be detaching from me. No texts to me (except she will copy me on texts to/from our D10), does not appear to want to be around me, etc. This is probably a good thing anyway b/c it helps me to detach more.
I realize that my good days and bad days rely heavily on my interactions with her. That clearly shows that I am not detached. In an odd way, I am coming closer and closer to be OK getting divorced and moving on. I know I will meet someone else. But I feel so bad for my kids. They don't deserve this. Our kids are so great. They do well at school, have great friends, love sports, etc. I know a D will throw them for a loop. Sure, plenty of kids survive a D just fine so I know it can be done.
Maybe I am rushing the process. She asked for the D back in early June and has not asked for it again or pursued anything sort of S. But she is not committed to this M either. I think that if I could GAL more and detach more, I would be able to weather the storm of limbo a bit longer. But I also know that I am giving her no reason to stop the A and be transparent with me. Do I need to file for D to enforce my boundaries? I have a call with my DB coach on Thursday and plan to ask her this question as well.
I think it's time to rattle her tree. Whether or not that rattling is the final hole card of "filing for D" is something only YOU can answer. But she clearly has no real reason NOT to just continue to do what she's doing.
Starsky
Is there any other way to rattle her? Probably not
What emotional needs and/or financial needs of hers are you still filling?
Someone once advised on here for a betrayed spouse to take just ONE THING each week that they USED to do for their spouse, and replace it with something they should do for themselves. I liked that.
As you know, I ultimately played the ultimate "D" hole card. But only after bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and giving my wife several opportunities to turn away from the destructive path she was on. But it wasn't a TACTIC; I was really, truly DONE.
Only you will know when you reach that point.
Starsky
Emotionally, I am less and less there for her. Every once in a while, we talk about her job, the stress that she has, how she misses the kids when she travels, etc. I try to listen but other times I just say "you are a big girl, I am sure you will figure it out." This detaching seemed to be working as she was seemed to be nicer towards me, wanted to be around me more, etc.
So I was doing OK with detaching from her until I found the tickets to the concert this week. That is the problem with snooping...it can set you back emotionally. Before that I was doing well with detaching and figured that I would give her her space. I was thinking perhaps she had ended things with the OM? Perhaps she was still confused about everything? But then I found the tickets, which set me back. It is just lies, lies and more lies.
I also don't want to jump to conclusions (one of my 180s). I have no idea if she still is with the OM. I have no idea whom she intended to bring to this concert. I just don't know anything because there is no transparency. I just don't believe her, ever.
Last I spoke with my DB coach, her advice was just to back off and detach. Give her time and space. Focus on myself, my kids, GALing, detaching, etc.
As you have said before, I don't think my W senses that she is losing me. She did comment today that I seemed irritated with her, to which I commented that I was not. But she knows that I want this M to work (ideally). My actions need to change clearly. I have told her to just move to NYC and that we would both benefit from the separation. She refuses to do that. She said she does not want to do that to the kids.
uggh...this is so hard.
Shodan, snooping has set me back emotionally as well. Now, when I get the urge to spy on her, I think, what is the difference? Her unwillingness to be transparent says it all in my opinion. It's best to have no expectations about what may or may not be going on with the OM or inside her head. A few days ago things seemed to be improving nicely. Now a setback with the concert tickets. Is there any way you could ask her about the tickets? It has got to be really hard to keep quiet. Overall though You are doing great! Your ability to detach, GAL, have fun and act confident are impressive. Keep working your process. Know that you will be ok no matter what. Hang in there man!
Onguard
Totally agree with snooping. It is getting me no where but just angry and emotional, which is my #1 issue with detaching.
I spoke with my DB coach yesterday, who continued to offer the same/similar advice
- don' t talk about the A, the texting, etc.
- Don't care where she is or what she is doing. She needs to believe that I am letting go.
- stop being controlling in any way. She knows my boundaries, so there is no need to repeat them. Repeating them seems controlling to my W.
- continue to ask myself...is what I am doing or about to do going to help me towards my goal?
- Get out of my own head...when things trigger emotions, I need to walk away, take deep breaths, call someone, meditate, etc.
- stop being consumed and obsessed with what she is doing. I cannot control her. I only can control myself.
- Remember that she is not in her right mind
She had recommended that when my W wants to connect that I allow it to happen and have fun. I said that is my #1 problem. I pull back, she tries to engage, we have fun and then I am no longer detached and start to form expectations. And then she crushes me again by doing her secret texting, telling lies, etc.
I know my W needs space. And I need space too. In a way, I wish she would move out and we would separate. It should allow the both of us to grow and determine what we want. Right now I am not sure that I want this M to work. She has treated me so poorly these past few months. The lies, the secrets, the cheating, etc. When we have discussed D, she says she is not moving out. So if we do get to that point, I doubt this will be an easy process.
I need to GAL and detach for myself. Not to win her back. To heal myself and allow me to move on. It is really hard to do that when she is here.
I think I have been looking for positive signs to justify that perhaps she is "coming back". In reality, she will be back when she says she wants to work on the M and provides full transparency. Until that point, it is all a shell game. I am looking for more activities to do that allow me to not be home when she is here. Of course, I need to balance that with being here for my kids, whom I love dearly. Weekends are the toughest b/c all of my friends are married and spend their weekends with their families.
I just met with my physician for my annual physical and broke down explaining what has been happening. Uggh.
But as I gathered myself, I kept realizing how much this A is the obstacle. While our M was clearly far from perfect, we had a lot of the ingredients for a great M. We could talk about anything. We were best friends. The sex was great. Granted, we did not have it enough (about once per week) but my W always had at least two Os. Usually three. So to leave a M with both of those ingredients plus some great kids means she really had some big issues percolating that the A has addressed in some way. It is the A that is now keeping her from thinking straight. But unfortunately, there is nothing that I can do to end her A. She has to end it herself. Logic will NEVER trump emotion.
But as I gathered myself, I kept realizing how much this A is the obstacle. While our M was clearly far from perfect, we had a lot of the ingredients for a great M. We could talk about anything. We were best friends. The sex was great. Granted, we did not have it enough (about once per week) but my W always had at least two Os. Usually three. So to leave a M with both of those ingredients plus some great kids means she really had some big issues percolating that the A has addressed in some way. It is the A that is now keeping her from thinking straight. But unfortunately, there is nothing that I can do to end her A. She has to end it herself. Logic will NEVER trump emotion.
I feel the same way. I am convinced that my wife will reconsider once she ends her affair. Unfortunately, she has to do that, as I have no control over it.
My heart is with you Shodan. I can most certainly feel your pain. The thing with Affairs and EAs is that they are merely distractions from fixing the real problem, because that's hard work. It's so much easier to just bury it somewhere else.
Thanks. Writing this has really allowed me to see the right path. I need to move forward and focus 100% on me and my kids. I want no part of this M as it is today. She can have it. I feel for my kids, I really do, but I cannot live another day with someone who does not want me as her H. Her loss.
I want no part of this M as it is today. She can have it. I feel for my kids, I really do, but I cannot live another day with someone who does not want me as her H. Her loss.
So what does this mean? What are you doing about it?
Great question. I am not moving out and neither will she. I am GALing and trying to just not be around her. My MIL is convinced that she just needs space, which I am giving her. So I plan to act somewhat like we are separated without moving out.
What confuses me is she is telling people including me that she wants to cut down on her travel. So that is where I wonder if she is trying to cut out the A. So my goal is to stay strong, be social and confident, travel more for work so I not around her. Effectively going as dark as possible while living in the same house.
What confuses me is she is telling people including me that she wants to cut down on her travel. So that is where I wonder if she is trying to cut out the A.
Shouldn't it be confusing when she actually cuts down her travel?
That is the thing...she has cut down on her travel.
Another update...I did a good job of GAL AND 180s this weekend. Friday I was out with a friend but came back at a reasonable hour. Saturday we had plans with another couple for a drink. My W missing the kids so she said she did not want to go. I said it was fine and I would go without her. The old me would have wanted her to go with me. My D had a birthday party so my W was going out with just my S. Then the couple had to cancel so my evening opened up. The old me would have gone out with my W and S to dinner but the new told them to have a great time.
On Sunday I worked out with a friend rather than go to yoga with my W.
Then at night I went to bed early to watch tv and read. My W came up a few minutes later rather than stay downstairs by herself. She then started talking a ton to me. I listened but was not over active in the convo.
This week I will continue to detach and do my own thing. When I don't care what she is doing I feel more and more better. Trying to keep up the PMA.
The posts about God and prayer have really helped me. I am turning my W and her ways over to God. I cannot control her and her actions. All I can do is move forward, GAL and detach. While I want my M to work and for my W to come back to "reality" to work on our M, I also am not going to wait around for her. I believe that we can have an amazing M if we worked at it. She needs to believe this herself and my logic about the kids, our shared history, etc. will not win over her emotions.
So does this mean I am going to file? not yet. I will use the time to find myself, the old Shodan before I was married. I am reconnecting with friends, traveling more for work and finding new hobbies. At the end of this process, if my W is there and wants to work on this, great. If not, then I will be prepared for what will come, the inevitable.
I have done some research on dating after D with kids. It does not look so bad out there. While I would rather date my W, at some point I need to officially move on.
The posts about God and prayer have really helped me. I am turning my W and her ways over to God. I cannot control her and her actions. All I can do is move forward, GAL and detach. While I want my M to work and for my W to come back to "reality" to work on our M, I also am not going to wait around for her. I believe that we can have an amazing M if we worked at it. She needs to believe this herself and my logic about the kids, our shared history, etc. will not win over her emotions.
Glad to hear it, Shodan. I too am searching for some inner peace.
I continue to pray for my W, my family and everyone on this board. I am focusing more on my work, my activities and myself in general. I actually told my W that I had asked for more responsibility at work. I have been slacking these past ~four months (for good reason :)) and know that I need to get more focused. She actually responded that she would like that, would allow her to quit her job, which is causes her a ton of stress.
I know there is a lot still to do to improve me and ultimately be a better husband, whether for my W or someone else. My IC has helped me a lot with coming to grips with my control and anger issues in the past. I have identified a lot of stress triggers that can lead to control or anger tendencies on my part. I also am learning to just let things go and not worry so much.
From a detaching perspective:
- I continue to remind myself that I cannot control her
- I am not snooping or even wondering where she is
- I am not jumping to conclusions about anything
- My W seems to want to connect with me when we are around each other, but of course I see this as cake eating more than anything. I have been hurt by her too many times to believe that any positive changes actually mean something to her.
From a GAL perspective:
- Thursday I am going to an event here at my work after work, so I won't be home until late
- This weekend I have tickets for my family to see Lion King and then go to dinner afterwards. My DB coach said to do family events from time to time.
- I also am coaching soccer on Sunday and working out with a friend Sunday morning
- Next week I will have another guitar lesson and am meeting a friend for dinner on Friday night
- I assume that my W will be traveling next week to NYC so we will have some time apart from each other
- Columbus Day weekend I am going to visit my parents. My kids will be with my MIL. My wife asked if she should come with me (my mom had a severe stroke three months ago) and I said that I would be fine on my own.
- I am traveling the week after that for work for a few days
I am still trying to find that "other" activity that I can do to get me out of the house more and meet new people. A friend of mine is trying to get me to do cross fit. I thought about rock climbing but the places are not that close to me. I also was considering boxing 1-2 times per week (there is a place near my work).
Praying for everyone and sending lots of love.
I have no idea whether or not my wife is still in her A. The evidence that I have would be enough to find her guilty in a civil court, but not sure in a criminal court (95% probability, beyond a reasonable doubt). I am very confident that something happened with the OM but it could have been very short lived. She went from spending 4-6 days per week in NYC, being super cold towards me, etc. back in June/July to being warmer towards me, trying to connect with me in conversation and only spending 8-9 nights away from home in the past 7-8 weeks. This clearly could be cake eating, but the substantial decrease in nights away from home/in NYC is pretty telling (more than 60% of her time to less than 20% of her time).
Despite writing this, I am not trying to think too much about her and the A. I just thought the data was interesting to analyze.
All I can do is move forward, be a great dad and work on me. Her journey is in God's hands. I cannot control her.
Wow, shodan, just caught up on your situation -- your timeline is close to mine, except my H moved out back in August. I think you're doing a great job, and in spite of what you said about friends on my thread, it sounds as if you do have friends with whom you connect. You also sound like you are in a good place at the moment, and focused on what you should be -- yourself and your kids.
My H also won't admit to an A, even though signs point in that direction. I suspect it's either because he doesn't want to admit to being "the bad guy" by cheating, or perhaps because he doesn't trust his decision and wants to be able to run back to me if that relationship doesn't pan out. The hardest part is trying not to care whether he's in an A or not. It doesn't really make a difference. His feelings toward me have changed, regardless of the impetus, and all I can do is focus on me and my daughter. Everything else is beyond my control.
Anyway, just wanted to give you some encouragement. Keep up the good work!
Thanks ahoy. When I start to feel down, I just remind myself that she is in God's hands now. I cannot control her, her feelings and her decisions. Where I struggle from time to time is detaching. We live together, we have kids together, etc. Further, she is showing signs and taking action to be in NYC less and less (NYC is where the OM is). Right now, she won't be there again for another two weeks, which would put her almost three weeks between trips. Not exactly the recipe for a hot A.
Last night we somehow started talking. I came back from a work event and then while in bed, she asked how it was. One thing led to another and she mentioned that her best friend has been telling her that my W is the worst communicator. Her friend has been telling her that her lack of communication is one of the main reasons behind our situation right now. My W never told me how she felt and expected me to read her mind. I joked and said that mind reading is a super power that I have not developed yet.
I just need to be patient and focus on me. If I had to guess, my W does want to work on the M but is very unsure of me and my changes. I of course cannot show her Plan A Shodan but need to continue to be nice, kind, confident, strong ad non-controlling in my behaviors.
Heading to see my IC now. Always good to have someone to talk to although he does not understand affairs. But he is good for me for working on my stuff.
Doing a pretty good job of GALing but need to do more. Detaching is hard because we are in the same house. But I do see some changes in my wife...less focused on traveling to NYC and more focused on the family.
Just need to be patient and move forward. Have no idea how she feels and frankly not sure how I feel either.
We had a great weekend for the most part. We did some family stuff together and then Sunday went to an impromptu party at a friend's house. My W and I were hanging out together a but with some other people and having fun. Later that night, I said to my W "On a scale of 1 to 10, where 10 is awesome, our M is a 1 right now, yet we had a lot of fun together. Imagine what would happen if we actually worked on our M." She said that she thought the same thing today.
However, unfortunately I am 100% confident that my W is still in her A. But I also sense that she is confused. She has said a few things to me about our M and not being sure what to do and how to work on it. She has expressed remorse for not working harder on our M, not communicating her thoughts and feelings to me, etc. But, I frankly am starting to care less and less. While we an have fun and I personally believe that we have the ingredients to have a great M, with every passing day during which she is in this A and giving her love to someone else, my affection for her wanes. I take full responsibility for my actions that led up to where we are today. But she has so much work to do earn back my trust, assuming she ends the A. And I think my W is way too stubborn to admit to what she did/is doing (if she actually ends it).
So what will I do: continue to detach and GAL. I have a lot of work stuff this week, lots of meetings and calls. I have a guitar lesson on Thursday and then dinner with a buddy on Friday. And then this weekend I am visiting my parents. Next week I have some business travel.
Overall, I feel good. For the past several weeks, I have not been focusing on our M and our future. I feel like I have so much more energy as a result. Trying to "fix" this M is fatiguing. She is in God's hands now.
While we an have fun and I personally believe that we have the ingredients to have a great M, with every passing day during which she is in this A and giving her love to someone else, my affection for her wanes.
Good stuff, shodan. You and I both have W's with whom we actually can have a great time and get along with, which is slightly different than many of the WAW's here. The only thing I can add from my noobie's perspective is don't wait too long- once you are in a good place with the PMA and GAL and believe you will be OK without W, consider pushing W to make her decision. I was extremely reluctant to do so, but with Starsky's constant urging, I finally saw the power of the "Love Must Be Tough" approach and I firmly believe my insisting on D Mediation was what put the stress on wife's A that caused it to implode. May not save my M, but it got me out of limbo.
Did you file for D in order to get to mediation? Or just find a mediator directly?
Before I found this forum and DB, I sent the Harley "Since you won't end the A I want a Separation" letter- I waivered a bit but finally pushed for D mediation with W because its lots quicker, easier on the kids and would cost a lot less. In my state D takes 6-12 months with lawyers and costs 5x more than mediation. She agreed to the initial session (not because she wanted the S- she wanted to cake eat) but seeing how serious I was in the session and hearing from the mediator that we could be S in a month caused her to freak and pressure OM to leave his GF- that didn't happen and that relationship imploded (hopefully for good- time will tell). I don't think HOW (file, mediate, etc.) you do it matters as much as 1) that you put pressure on and keep it on 2) telegraph that you believe you will be 100% fine with the D/S outcome (GAL, PMA). Heed MDW's advice though- this is last resort to be sure, as there is no guarantee it will work, so you have to be ready to be D/S if it doesn't work! And remember, if you make the push you have to follow through on this or you lose ALL credibility with W.
I spoke with one mediator today, have scheduled a meeting with a mediator on Thursday and have another call scheduled tomorrow. I know my W and I can make this amicable except for the house. Neither of us will want to leave it. The one that leaves will seem "less of the parent" even though we will have joint custody.
I have a call with my DB coach on Wednesday and was planning to ask her whether or not I should push for mediation or whether I just need to be patient, GAL and detach. But I am very tempted to text my W now and let her know about my appt and ask whether or not she can be available. I am just do done with the lies, cheating and deceit and frankly am not sure I want this M to work. It is going to take some much work on her part to earn back my trust.
Like Bart, my wife is so stubborn and to some extent hurt by my previous actions that I think she would rather D than admit to the A.
Interesting last few days. I broke into my W's phone again and found a text between her and the OM. He said "I think your roommate is dictating your timeline" to which my W replied " Why do you say that ?" He responded "Just the feeling I get from when we talk." She typed back "I am scared that's all. Scared you won't be there. Which I know isn't fair" He said "I love you baby" and she said "I love you too." He then wrote back "What's scary? Admitting you may or may not have made a mistake? Or the chance that you may be a single mom and not dating?"
I did not see her response to this.
Last night I asked my W about her meeting me on Thursday to meet with a divorce mediator. She got mad and asked why I broke into her phone again, which she said was her deal breaker. I told her that I saw her type in her code (literally from 40 ft away) and decided to look. I asked her about the texts and she basically denied everything. I asked "can you explain why you said that you loved him" and she said "I don't remember saying that." I also found a bunch of photos of him on her phone plus photos of them together.
When I showed these to her and read the text to her, she said I would not understand and continued to say that I was a control freak, cyber stalker and that is why she wants to divorce me. I laughed at that comment and said that her A is the issue. I reiterated that I want to work on our M but I will not share my W with anyone else. She continued to say that there was nothing going on between them. Later she said that they were just super close and comforting each other b/c they both are in bad marriages. She continues to insist that he is married with two young kids (I am 95% sure that he is not).
Effectively, she said that she sees no hope in our M. I said that I see no hope either as long as she is in an A and that unfortunately, our only avenue is to pursue a D. It is not what I want, but I will not share my W with anyone else.
By the morning, she was much calmer (neither of us really slept) and she said she does not want to D and destroy our family. I said that I did not want that either but we need to move off of square one, which clearly is a deal breaker for both of us. I want to trust my W and do not want her having any contact with the OM and she said that I cannot dictate with whom she texts, calls, etc.
She also starting spewing all kinds of nonsense at me about our past and things that I did or did not do. I told her that I take responsibility for my past and am working on my issues. In her mind, our M was over so the A is not related.
Based on the context of her text to the OM, I believe that she told him that she wants to cool things a bit while she considers what she wants to do. Last night did not help my situation. She clearly wants both of us in her life while she makes her decision. I told her today when I left that until she fully commits to our M, I have no choice but to pursue a D.
While being divorced from my W breaks my heart, I know that I will survive. I really feel for my kids and frankly am angry at my W for not working on our M. If we worked at it and it just did not work out, I could part as friends. But simply giving up when we have two beautiful kids together is ridiculous.
Based on the context of her text to the OM, I believe that she told him that she wants to cool things a bit while she considers what she wants to do.
Yeah, I was afraid of that, Sho. I'm so sorry, but I think in your gut you knew this was probably the case, didn't you?
Time to move forward with your life. Whether or not she changes course and decides to try and join you again is out of your control, and totally her call. I pray you will still have feelings for her when that day comes, and that you'll play your cards right at that key moment.
I do think she still loves you.
Starsky
I am going forth with pursuing the D. I would like to do mediation to keep it nice. I know that she is so hesitant because of the kids. She even said to me "do people just stay unhappy in their Ms for their kids?" I said some might but that I don't want that. I am not going to stay in a M when I am unhappy and neither should she. We can work on it and I believe that we have a great chance at a great M, but it will take a leap of faith.
Nothing I say will make her stop the A. Perhaps her love for her kids will get her there. That is my only hope. Right now, she has no love for me. She cares about me but does not love me.
I know it seems that way (that she doesn't love you) Sho, but my wife -- just 5 days before we reconciled -- was telling her OM that "no one ever did it for you the way you do," and throwing multiple ILYs at him. Five days later, she cries tearfully to me "You're my HOME!"
She's messed up. I'm not saying to make your decisions based on what we each might GUESS is in her heart, rather than by her actions/decisions . . . clearly, you need to do the latter, and I agree that you're probably at that point. I'm just saying don't totally close off your heart to her, and try to give grace as you move forward. You never know what the future may hold -- 20% of divorced couples re-marry even, with an overwhelming majority of those reporting that their new marriage is better than it ever was before.
Hang in there,
Starsky
I know somewhere deep down she loves me but her heart is closed off due to the A. I take some solace from the fact that her text clearly was not "I want to be with you forever" but more "I need to cool things here, I am super confused."
I just spoke with a mediator. She asked if MC was a possibility. I said not as long as she is in the A.
My W is hurting big time. She is mentioning things from years ago that I did not realize had hurt her. We cannot move forward until she lets go of that hurt and pain, forgives me and tries to work on our M. And I think (i know, mind reading) that the A provides her some comfort while she is hurting. And as long as she thinks our M is over, in her mind, why not continue with the A.
So yeah, I feel pretty hopeless overall. Like I said before, I really feel for my kids. They do NOT deserve this. They deserve two parents working on their M, not running away from it.
My W is hurting big time. She is mentioning things from years ago that I did not realize had hurt her. We cannot move forward until she lets go of that hurt and pain, forgives me and tries to work on our M. And I think (i know, mind reading) that the A provides her some comfort while she is hurting.
Yes, I think many people who allow themselves to get caught up in affairs use them to "medicate" away assorted pains, resentments and emotional wounds. That's why the "introspection" part is so important -- for a wayward spouse to look inward and realize just WHY they chose this destructive route to deal with their pain, and what they might do differently in the future whether it's with their current spouse or some future relationship.
As much as the continued deceit and especially DISRESPECT eats at your heart (and I've been there -- it DOES), I believe at the end of the day it is this lack of seriousness and
maturity . . . unwillingness to engage in meaningful introspection and then take actions to correct her destructive behaviors . . . . that signify that it's time for you to begin to move on.
She seems to be stuck in the mere "confusion" stage; in my opinion, she should be way beyond that by now and until she IS, I wouldn't want any part of her. Whether that "no part of" is a divorce or some sort of separated "standing for your marriage" is obviously completely up to YOU, as you (and your kids) have to live with the consequences of your decision. But your wife in her current state is toxic to your own emotional and even mental health, IMHO.
Starsky
I hear you. She is in God's hands. Perhaps she wakes up in time and realizes how destructive her actions are to our family. If not, we will end up divorced. While I think about being patient and not pursue a D, I just don't have the strength to do that...
fwiw, I do think you've done everything you can do. You've clearly communicated your core boundaries, done "Plan A," you've done a soft "Plan B" and you've detached further and further, and she's still not responding.
Yeah, God's hands -- with a whoooole lotta of wayward wife's FREE WILL wrapped around the whole ugly thing.
Starsky
when I detach, she definitely notices and tries to bring me back in. But she does not react enough to actually either admit the A or stop it. so my only option at this point is to D. If this gets the reaction that I want, great. It probably won't. She is so wrapped up in so much hurt from things in the past that she cannot see clearly. She just thinks we have no chance, we are so different, that I never wanted to be with her, etc.
What perplexes me is how she will not admit to the A with all of the glaring evidence. Text messages in which she says "I love you"to him, pictures of him on her phone, pictures of the two of them, tons of lies and secrets, etc.
Ironically, when I left today, we hugged (probably the first time in four months) and she squeezed me so hard.
Starsky, thanks for your support. you are a good man for doing this. Don't forget that.
What perplexes me is how she will not admit to the A with all of the glaring evidence. Text messages in which she says "I love you"to him, pictures of him on her phone, pictures of the two of them, tons of lies and secrets, etc.
That's one of the reasons I think she does still love you. She compartmentalizes, in order to keep the "Shodan" room in her head firewalled from the "OM" room. It's how she allows her affair to continue despite her prior value system.
Or, she's just trying to spare you the add'l pain.
If she hated you, then she'd probably just finally cop to it (while telling you it's all your fault).
Starsky
Starsky, thanks for your support. you are a good man for doing this. Don't forget that.
I just want to see marriages saved. But I *do* want to see them saved with healthy boundaries in place, and *both* spouses committed to admitting their past marital mistakes and working on it together. I'm not an "intact marriage at all costs" guy.
My W just called me. I had sent her a few emails on Mediation with notes from various people with whom I had spoken. I also sent her an email with potential times to meet with someone this week. She called me on her way home rather than email back.
I explained the differences between mediation, collaborative D and litigation. After some questions, she then said "this is a very big decision, I just need some time to think." I told her that unfortunately that while I do not want a D, this is my only option because I refuse to share my W with someone else. I also said that if she wants time, we can take all of the time in the world to work on our M, but only when I know she is committed to our M and it involves only the two of us. I told her our M will take work to repair, but we cannot start it until she is completely honest with me and she cuts off all ties with him.
I was very nice in my tone and left the convo with "you have two options. if you want to pursue this other life, I cannot control you and your decision. I will make it easy for you and we can divorce. Or, you choose to come home to the kids and me and to work on our M. But, if you choose the kids and me, you will forever close the door on that other part of your life forever and have no contact with him ever again. Since right now you say you cannot decide, then I have no option but to pursue a D."
man, this s&cks.
I broke into my W's phone again and found a text between her and the OM
This is one of the reasons your wife doesn't feel she loves you anymore. You have to understand that this doesn't come across as a confident man. Women are attracted to confident men. Confident men don't break into their W's phone....
I told her that I saw her type in her code (literally from 40 ft away) and decided to look. I asked her about the texts and she basically denied everything. I asked "can you explain why you said that you loved him" and she said "I don't remember saying that." I also found a bunch of photos of him on her phone plus photos of them together.
More of the same. This comes across as weak and desperate.
That will NEVER draw her back or help her feelings come back for you.
I reiterated that I want to work on our M but I will not share my W with anyone else
Do you see how you are trying to sound strong on one hand and yet are coming across as weak on the other hand?
"I won't share you, but I do want and NEED (needy) to keep snooping on you"..
This is why she can't get her feelings back for you. Women aren't attracted to men who act like this. It's a huge turnoff, even to a woman in an affair...
If you aren't going to share her and want to come across as confident and strong then stop snooping and stop telling her this isn't what you want. Your ACTIONS on this will show her you won't share. Your actions are coming across like you are pressuring her to break it off with the OM by using divorce as a 2x4.. Forcing her to come back won't work..... Pressure doesn't work... You have to take off the pressure...
IMHO a confident man says...
"I have decided that this isn't working for me and this isn't what I want. I don't believing in sharing my wife with another man. I think you should move out as soon as possible and I am going to file for divorce and will let you know the details after I meet with my lawyer."Confident, firm and resolved. Not mean spirited. Just matter of fact... I HAVE DECIDED...
Nothing about
"this isn't what I want or stop seeing the OM or what about the kids".. etc etc.... NOTHING...
When you do this you will gain back some of the respect she lost for you. Maybe even some of your own self respect back...
Women are attracted to strong, confident, decisive men who have integrity. She KNOWS what she is doing is wrong.
Just my opinion...
Just sayin.
Sho, no more "grand pronouncements." You have given her some version of that speech 10x now -- enough. She knows your position; to keep hammering her with it is only coming across as controlling and holier-than-thou.
You "state" your position by your ACTIONS from this point forward, not by your WORDS.
Lead.
Starsky
so basically, more action, less/no talk. Got it.
Meeting with a divorce mediator tomorrow but my W cannot make it. Just moving forward.
CONVERSATION is fine. GRAND PRONOUNCEMENTS and repeats of your core boundaries are the no-no.
Starsky
Got it. People are saying pressure is bad. Clearly, moving towards a D is putting pressure on her to make a decision. I know she is waffling right now. Based on her travel schedule, she will not have been in NYC for ~3 weeks. So she is not seeing the OM. But of course, I know she is talking and texting with him.
I am being nice, kind and positive. I probably over did it on the "grand pronouncements", which as everyone has pointed out, will make her feel more guilty and bad about herself, which could force her away from me. But I am standing by the fact that I am not sharing her with anyone else and have no other choice but to pursue a D.
In fact, today she said that she cannot make a mediator meeting on Thursday. She has client meetings/calls. I told her that I would go on my own, even though she needs to be there, and then would work to schedule another meeting when I get back from my business trip next week. So while my words may demonstrate that I am "needy", my actions are moving straight forward towards divorce.
In the end, I sense that she wants time. But if I allow her time, she will just cake eat.
In the end, I sense that she wants time. But if I allow her time, she will just cake eat.
I tend to agree.
Yeah, she clearly is waffling. she has made a ton of changes to be in Boston more. She is doing a day trip to NYC next week while I am traveling. she could see him that day clearly. But that will be three weeks since she was last in NYC.
So I know she is waffling and needs some time to either (1) get the guts to end the A or (2) feel comfortable enough in my changes or comfortable enough to commit to working on our M. Based on her text with the OM, she clearly has said something to him about slowing down and allowing her to figure out what she wants. Based on his response on that text, he must have said something like "I cannot wait around forever for you while you make up your mind." Somewhat ironic since that is what I have said.
If she goes on her feelings, she will choose the OM b/c her feelings for me are buried so deep inside. But if I give her time, all I do is sign myself up for more limbo, which s**ks. If she chooses me, it will be because she is choosing her feelings for our family, not me. Those feelings will take a lot of time to come back.
I know my moving towards a D is putting pressure on her, but I really don't see another option. I cannot sit back and know that my W is having an A with the OM. If that is what she wants, she can have it. I want no part of an open M.
Please note: I am still being SUPER pleasant towards her and around her. I am being Mr PMA.
Shodan
I have been there ... and I get where you are at. I agree with Starsky on everything he has said to you. With my sitch she atleast admitted the A (after about 3 months of my initial suspicion)
I noticed a HUGE turn for me when I stood up and told her that the A was disrespectful to me, our marriage, our family, and her family .. even tossed in a "I would hate to see your parents find out about this" ... this seemed to lift a fog, she called that night crying and I told her if OM was who she wanted go and be happy, she deserves to be happy .. but asked her to actually think about how that R would really ever work ..... in your case .. how does her A really work?? .. eventually its going to run its course like they all do, might take longer with the distance ... but it will still end. I do see when us LBS try to tell them how wrong it is it makes the WAS hang on even tighter.
My advice .. SHE has to end it .. .you have stated your boundaries, started the process ... looks like she doesn't want it .. or maybe just does not what YOU to make that choice for her. I would just go about your business and see what her actions/reactions are. I do get a sense that she is cake eating, and now has to start giving this whole thing some thought .. something I don't think she has done on the high of the A and the butterfly feelings it provides.
Cali, thanks for reading my thread and commenting. I agree that the only path to R is after she ends the A.
I spoke with my DB coach yesterday. I caught her up on the texts that I read, my convos with my wife and that I have decided to pursue a D. She agreed that my W likely is waffling (based on the texts, her decreased time in NYC, etc.) but that she needs to make a decision and get off of the fence. She did suggest that since my W is spending considerably less time with the OM, I should create opportunities to show my W what she will be missing and try to create some emotional connection...fun family events, nice and fun conversations, etc. . But this ONLY works if I continue to pursue a D or else it will just be cake eating. Clearly it does not allow me to detach, but I still am GALing (e.g., I have a guitar lesson tonight, dinner plans tomorrow night and then am gone all weekend visiting my parents).
Here is a "funny" story to share...yesterday, my W and I went to the same yoga class. We drove together b/c I didn't want to come across as controlling or a d*ck. When we got to the class, the instructor said "Here are the Shodans (last name)." And then when we put our mats down, my W had to move to make room for the instructor, so she moved two spaces from me with a woman between us. We were talking about something for the few minutes before class and the woman in the middle said that she wanted to swap places with my wife so she could be next to me. My W switched and when she did, the woman said "I wish my husband and I could take yoga classes together. If he were here, he would not want to be near me." I then whispered to my W "define irony" and she laughed.
I tell this story b/c we really do/did have one of those marriages that was pretty great but unfortunately went sideways. But, as long as she is in an A, I want no part of this M. As I said before, she is in God's hands now. I pray that He softens her heart enough to come back to our family and our M before it is too late and the D is finalized.
The yoga story is hilarious, shodan. Glad you can find humor in the situation. It must be hard pursuing a D that you don't really want. But I admire your strength to draw this firm boundary. Some days I wonder if I should initiate a D to force H off the fence. To be honest, I don't know if I want to stay married to someone who could do what he's done to our family, so even if filing meant pushing him away, maybe I'd be okay with that. If it helped open his eyes sooner, and gave us a chance to work on the R, then so be it. But I'm trying to be patient. Especially because I don't have proof of an A, even though all signs point that direction, and he's told me he plans to date.
You sound like you will be fine, no matter what the outcome.
I spoke with my DB coach yesterday. I caught her up on the texts that I read, my convos with my wife and that I have decided to pursue a D. She agreed that my W likely is waffling (based on the texts, her decreased time in NYC, etc.) but that she needs to make a decision and get off of the fence. She did suggest that since my W is spending considerably less time with the OM, I should create opportunities to show my W what she will be missing and try to create some emotional connection...fun family events, nice and fun conversations, etc. . But this ONLY works if I continue to pursue a D or else it will just be cake eating.
This would be an odd mix of strategies. At this late hour, I think either you're going to try to "Plan A" her or go hard-core, after-the-LRT "Plan B." To try to do both is only going to mess with your head, detachment-wise.
I do think there are things you can continue to do to show your fun side (your whispered comment at yoga is a perfect example), WHEN the opportunity presents itself. But I wouldn't recommend you pursue or plan those opportunities.
I guess I'll have to agree to disagree with your coach on this one.
Starsky
I'm obviously not a vet, but I kind of thought the same thing as Starsky. Seems like an odd approach.
I know. I assumed folks on the forum would object to it.
My pursuit of the D definitely has thrown her off. She has called me at work twice this week (never did that during the past few months) and is being SUPER nice to me, really trying to connect with me. She asked again if I was going to a special yoga class on Friday night (I said I had plans already) and she asked again whether or not she should come with me this weekend to visit my parents (my mom had a severe stroke back in May).
Is your concern that I will be hurt in the end when we get divorced and I have not detached fully from her OR that this approach will not show her that she is losing me? or both?
Both.
People value most that which is difficult to obtain. She HAS to feel like she is credibly losing you, if she is going to be motivated to change from her "keep both plates spinning on the sticks" waffling course.
Starsky
One positive thing...we won't see each other much over the next week. I have a guitar lesson tonight, we both are working tomorrow and then I have plans Friday night. I leave super early Saturday and get back super late on Sunday. My W works on Monday, while I have off. I am doing stuff with the kids on Monday and then leave super early Tuesday morning for a business trip, not getting back until late Thursday night. So, we may have 4-5 hrs of time awake when we may be around each other in the next week. I know we both will benefit from this space and time away.
Reading this thread - seeing many parallels with my own story (fence sitting/waffling W who has had A)- and learning a bunch from it all.
Thanks Shodan (and kind contributors)
The big value for me is the concrete examples of how the DB/DR principles are translated into actions/behaviour I can relate to , with concrete real examples.
Makes it easier for me to learn the changes I need to make for myself.
Just met with the mediator. Man, that is a sobering experience. I sent my W the notes from that meeting (she could not make it). As much as I wish we were not going down this path, unfortunately I have no other options as long as she is in an A.
my W just texted me in response to the email that I sent with my notes from the mediation. She said she is reading it while on a conference call. She asked if she can drive with me on Monday to pick up the kids from her mom's house (my kids are going to my MIL house tomorrow for the long weekend and I am picking them up on Monday...90+ min drive each way).
Need to figure out how respond to the text (or when I see her tonight)...options include:
- "I am not sure what there is to talk about"
- "Sure"...give her a chance to talk but I know we will be in the "can we just slow this down, i am not having an A, I am not sure how i feel about our M, etc."...will just bring up negative issues if we talk
- "let me think about it"
I wish she could have been there. It is a VERY sobering experience, and I believe in my own sitch it was one piece of the larger puzzle that caused the fetching Mrs. Starsky and me to step away from the abyss and put our marriage back together. Sitting there with the mediator, divvying up the holidays and stuff . . . uggggh!!!
I know. I assumed folks on the forum would object to it.
My pursuit of the D definitely has thrown her off. She has called me at work twice this week (never did that during the past few months) and is being SUPER nice to me, really trying to connect with me. She asked again if I was going to a special yoga class on Friday night (I said I had plans already) and she asked again whether or not she should come with me this weekend to visit my parents (my mom had a severe stroke back in May).
Is your concern that I will be hurt in the end when we get divorced and I have not detached fully from her OR that this approach will not show her that she is losing me? or both?
I have a request. I would like you to quote your DB coach's advice as accurately as possible, verbatim if you can.
Not doubting you, but really wanting clarity on this. Can you do that?
I have great faith in the DB coaches and have only had very positive experiences, with great results.
I'm somewhat confused now. So, if you could let us know just what YOU SAID to your coach and as exactly as possible, quote the coach, it might help us all understand better. Along with the comments, please tell us how You interpreted the comments, and what your DB goal is, at present.
Thanks
Tough call. I'd probably reply "It's a little late for talking, don't you think? I just want to move Besides, I was planning on using the quiet time riding up to your mom's to sort some things out myself."
But that's just me.
Starsky
25yrs...I mentioned to my coach that i am pursuing the D via mediation. I recounted for her the calls that we had (all of which I mentioned here as well). I also read the text message to my DB coach and recounted the spew my W had mentioned on Monday night (when she figured out that I broke into her phone). I then mentioned that we did not sleep well Monday night and that mid way through the night my wife rolled over and fell sleep on me (which is how she used to always sleep with me). When she woke up, she said that was the deepest sleep she has had in a long time and that sleeping on me is the only way she can ever fall asleep. I said something like "yeah, which makes it pretty ironic that we are moving towards a divorce. I am the same way..I sleep best when I am with you."
I also recounted that I have been very positive around her and showing PMA. I will tell her when she looks nice for work and say it with a smile. I still bring her coffee every morning for example.
Finally, one thing my W said to me Tuesday morning was that our vacation were always great. She just hated the day to day and coming home from work. So I told her that perhaps we need to reevaluate our day to day and make it more like a vacation. Don't be so scheduled, don't prioritize work, etc. We already had made some big changes to make life easier and better (I quit martial arts, which took a lot of my time during the week; we have our nanny working longer hours to make it easier for us; our kids are doing less activities after school).
So after all of that, my DB coach said that my W is pulling back (to some extent) from the OM but not enough to admit to the A and edit it. She said this could be an opportunity to show my W a little of what life could be like while also pursuing the D. She said that if I go dark, my W may see this as more of the same behavior that led to our situation (I was not available for her, I did not prioritize her, I did not act like I wanted to spend time with her, etc.). But she also recognized that this would hurt my ability to detach.
I hope that helps. I really appreciate any and all feedback and input.
I just texted back "I was planning to use the time along to sort things out myself."
She texted back "ok".
I know her convo will be more of the same...i was so unhappy, but this is a big decision, you seem to be taking D lightly; we always do things on your agenda, so this is more of you being controlling, etc.
None of that will help our situation.
I am not taking the D lightly and this breaks my heart. I just cannot share my W with a third party. That is non negotiable. Even if she actually ended it, how would I know? How could I trust her again? She acts all loving and caring now...but I do not trust her or her actions.
I just texted back "I was planning to use the time along to sort things out myself."
She texted back "ok".
I know her convo will be more of the same...i was so unhappy, but this is a big decision, you seem to be taking D lightly; we always do things on your agenda, so this is more of you being controlling, etc.
None of that will help our situation.
I am not taking the D lightly and this breaks my heart. I just cannot share my W with a third party. That is non negotiable.
THIS^^^ is clear, to the point, firm but showing pain while also being strong. It's also not obnoxious. I THINK this would move me if I were in your w's shoes, though in some ways I can only empathize to a point.
Even if she actually ended it, how would I know? How could I trust her again?
THIS^^^greatly Troubles me. IF you won't ever trust her again, no matter what, why should she bother trying to stay married? "Why climb Mt Everest if you're not going to enjoy the view?"
Of course I don't mean you "Should" trust her "NOW"... But if you cannot ever even imagine doing that, and you KNOW this with certainty, then you may as well divorce and move on now...
Ideally, if you could be granted your "marital wish" starting today,
Would You prefer to...
1) Reconcile with your wife, & create a wonderful, intimate NEW marriage:
OR
2) Split up, go your own way, and find a MRS WONDERFUL, all for you....??
Try to give this question a lot of honest thought & reflection b/c I sense a disconnect between the goals you once had here, and what you may be want, from now on...or as they say in the vows, "From this day forward".
Think you could you ever move "from this day forward" and let go of the past?
BTW, I think those words in our vows, are genius.
We all have to let go of our pasts, regardless of what they contain. Too much baggage helps NO marriage...
She acts all loving and caring now...but I do not trust her or her actions.
She, and You, need actions to match the words AND then add TIME to the recipe.
OR...not. Your choice. Try to see that as empowering...and carry on; we are all rooting for you.
Thanks 25...I would choose #1 without a doubt. I want a M with my W. I want to keep my family together. In an ideal world, she ends the A and we work together on the M. I work on the things that I need to do better (show her more attention, make her feel attractive, be less/not controlling, reduce stress in our lives, be more fun in general, etc.) and she works on earning back my trust (e.g., provide full transparency, NC with the OM, etc.).
But since she continues to stay in this A and DENY it (despite obvious evidence), I have no other choice but to pursue a D. I refuse to share my W with a third party.
I know it will take time to repair our M. But that times starts after she ends the A.
One thing I forgot to mention...when I spoke with my W earlier this week, she said something about people just staying in unhappy marriages. She said "do all of these people just stay in marriages for their kids?" I said some might but others work at their marriages.
I mention this b/c it is another sign that my W is reconsidering her initial stance that she wanted a D but also that she does not see "happiness/marital bliss" with me. Clearly, she has very strong feelings for the OM. And right now she may see no good solution. Either stop the one thing that makes her feel good or lose her family/marriage (but a marriage for which she has no feelings).
Like an addict, she has to hit rock bottom to stop. Perhaps this will be when we go through the D process, or after. Or maybe she never hits rock bottom.
Where I struggle is on the "time" issue. I know that I should be patient. Based on my wife's actions and words, I know she is struggling with her decision on what to do. I know that is why she wants time. My moving towards divorce is putting pressure on her, which may or may not be a good thing. But how can she make a clear choice if the OM is in the picture?
Like a lot of people on this forum, I wish she would read a book or two about people having affairs, their feelings and how to get past them. Of course, I know I cannot send these to her and I know she will not read them anyway.
If you're not sure if you want to be trapped in a car discussing this for that long, perhaps "Let me think about it" is the best option.
Do you really think she's going to make a major proclamation in a car on the way to her mom's place?
But if you think you can have her along and that it might be beneficial and you can keep a PMA then why not?
Shodan, she's in a fog and it wouldn't matter if you gave her a power point presentation on it she does not have the ability to hear or see it right now.
The same struggle I have in my marriage. If only I could get my wife to see and hear the things she herself said just 8 months ago and the pain / life disruption this separation is causing on her family.
Stay the course. Follow the rules/guidelines/suggestions as layed out, you're in your own fog too, remember.
no, i think if she wants to make a major proclamation, she will just do it.
Like a lot of people on this forum, I wish she would read a book or two about people having affairs, their feelings and how to get past them. Of course, I know I cannot send these to her and I know she will not read them anyway.
Yes!!!! Surely if they would read a story or two about affairs and affair fog they would make an attempt to make rational decisions rather than ones based on emotions or feelings. I am very tempted to send my wife a link to the "There's no peace for prodigals" article. I believe it describes what she's going through to a "T." Of course, I know she won't read it if it comes from me...
Where I struggle is on the "time" issue. I know that I should be patient. Based on my wife's actions and words, I know she is struggling with her decision on what to do. I know that is why she wants time. My moving towards divorce is putting pressure on her, which may or may not be a good thing. But how can she make a clear choice if the OM is in the picture?
She can't. Which is why any good IC worth their salt would advise her to separate herself from BOTH of you while she decides. Or, work at it with you and go NC with OM. But trying to have you both at the same time, even if it's a "we need to cool it for awhile" arrangement with OM, is NOT going to allow her to make any kind of a good decision here.
Shodan, she's in a fog and it wouldn't matter if you gave her a power point presentation on it she does not have the ability to hear or see it right now.
Starsky
I will continue down this path of divorce. As I stated, my one fear is that this puts too much pressure on her and she makes the wrong decision (to stay in the A) based on that pressure.
This morning, my D10 mentioned that she is looking forward to Christmas (she is a planner like me). I asked why and she said "well, besides the presents of course, I love being with my family." Well, that broke my heart. I know this breaks my W's heart as well (she was not home to hear it). I know she does not want to end our M and break up our family. I don't either but I cannot stay in a M where my W has the OM in the relationship.
I just to continue harping here....
I know my W has enjoyed the changes that she has seen. I can tell in her face, her reactions, her action, etc. She is spending WAY more time at home. She loves her kids. She loves when we do stuff as a family. She is a great mom. I know she wants our life together as a family.
the issue is her addiction and the love that she has for the OM (remember this is her ex college boyfriend not just a four month fling). Not to sound like a total wuss, but I can see why it is hard to break it off...If four months ago before this went down, if someone told me to never talk to my W ever again, I would tell them that they were crazy and that I would never do that. I love her, so how could I possible not see or speak with her ever again.
She is an addict. She needs help.
Thanks 25...I would choose #1 without a doubt. I want a M with my W. I want to keep my family together. In an ideal world, she ends the A and we work together on the M. I work on the things that I need to do better (show her more attention, make her feel attractive, be less/not controlling, reduce stress in our lives, be more fun in general, etc.) and she works on earning back my trust (e.g., provide full transparency, NC with the OM, etc.).
But since she continues to stay in this A and DENY it (despite obvious evidence), I have no other choice but to pursue a D. I refuse to share my W with a third party.
I know it will take time to repair our M. But that times starts after she ends the A.
What did your DB coach about your approach? (Did he/she actually SAY anything abut it?)}
What do you feel has helped/AND OR Hurt your sitch the most?
The addiction is powerful and Your not a wuss either. This is a really tough situation your going through. My w has supposedly had nc with her ap for 5 months and she is still pining for him. Your wife, like mine, has made a series of choices that are consistent with leaving the M. When my w told me that "she is not sure what she wants" I pointed out that her actions say that she wants her ap, not her M. If your w can have BOTH then why would she choose to give one up on her own? You have shown your w the best man you can be. You say that she enjoys talking with you and doing things with you. Your not moving forward with D to put pressure on her. Your doing it because you have a sensible boundary of not sharing her and she is not respecting it. You are doing the right thing imho. And if she still chooses to leave then all you have done is save yourself time and pain.
The DB coached thought the approach was working b/c my W clearly is very hesitant for "more of the same" from me. Going more "dark" could be interpreted as me being like I was before (in my W's view, not interested in our R, not finding her to be attractive, not looking at her the way that I did when we first were married). Letting my W sleep on me could allow us to create a connection, which is especially important since she is pulling back from the OM (a little).
Let's start with what has hurt my situation...
- anytime I do anything controlling or "push my agenda" (my W's words)
- breaking into her phone two times...she HATED this and SPEWED hatred after but that is also how I found out about the OM and proved that I was not crazy
- When I have not given her space (has not happened since the very beginning of this "wonderful" journey)
What do I feel has helped...
- quitting martial arts and spending more time at home
- being more relaxed overall (e.g. after work, having a glass of wine, making dinner, talking)
- Sitting and talking with my W about all topics (including us)
- being a better father (I was also a good father but my kids continue to comment about "new" dad vs. "old" dad
- being less anxious about schedules, money, etc.
- when I pull back, she definitely reacts and gets nicer and tried to cozy up to me, but I think it is because she is afraid of losing me, not because she wants me necessarily
- She reacts positively when I am just nice and kind but give her space
- When I am not eager to be with her to do stuff, which just shows that I am moving forward
Of course none of this has caused her to stop the A and be more transparent with me. Like I said earlier, I know (based on her texts and her significantly less travel to NYC) that she is trying to "cool" it with the OM to some extent. But that still is not ending it with the OM.
When we talked about the D the other day and what I learned from the mediator with whom I met, I told my W that this would the oddest D that they have seen because we likely would be "holding hands" while signing the divorce papers. Then, as she left for work, I walked up, grabbed her, gave her a super passionate kiss (and she kissed back) and then I left for work. I know, this is pursuing...but I wanted her to see that I still found her attractive (one of her complaints) but my actions with the mediators, setting up meetings, asking her for her availability to make these meetings, etc. are showing her that I am moving forward towards a divorce.
so, I am ready for the 2x4s....
in all seriousness, I truly appreciate everyone's feedback and support. I hope some day to be a success story and can repay back the efforts that all of you have put forth.
Then, as she left for work, I walked up, grabbed her, gave her a super passionate kiss (and she kissed back) and then I left for work. I know, this is pursuing...but I wanted her to see that I still found her attractive (one of her complaints) but my actions with the mediators, setting up meetings, asking her for her availability to make these meetings, etc. are showing her that I am moving forward towards a divorce.
so, I am ready for the 2x4s....
No lumber from me; I actually think that was a super-cool move!!
Starsky
The great Starsky said I was cool. If you were a woman, I might just blush.
"- when I pull back, she definitely reacts and gets nicer and tried to cozy up to me, but I think it is because she is afraid of losing me, not because she wants me necessarily"
Who cares? None of us feel loving towards our spouses 24/7. Don't worry about the why's and learn to enjoy the moment. Besides, I thought the idea was to make her afraid of loosing you. It's working.
You are way too much like me and over analyze the crap out of everything. It always ends up being my undoing.
totally fair point, but my concern is that I am giving her more opptys to cake eat. If there were no A, I would agree with you. But with the A in play, it is just cake eating.
The great Starsky said I was cool. If you were a woman, I might just blush.
Well, Hutch was always the lover. I'm more the fighter, so don't go by me.
totally fair point, but my concern is that I am giving her more opptys to cake eat. If there were no A, I would agree with you. But with the A in play, it is just cake eating.
As men, with our pride and egos, we're often very concerned with being made to be the "schmuck." Here's some notes from my personal archives that might help you a bit, Sho. Maybe some of it will apply:
On “having a plan,” and “The Schmuck Factor”:
I think you let her know that you are here for her when she is ready to do the work necessary. She clearly isn't ready to do that right now.
It would convey weakness if you were to be supplicating towards her while she was still actively cheating on you, and disrespecting her boundaries. Letting her know that you are willing to suck it up, forgive, love unconditionally and do the hard work of reconciliation -- when she is ready -- does NOT convey weakness, it conveys character and strength.
Many, many people confuse "unconditional love" with "doormat-without-boundaries." It is entirely possible -- and NECESSARY -- to demonstrate unconditional love and forgiveness, within a framework of healthy boundaries.
Do you not love a child unconditionally, while at the same time not allowing them to use obscenity when speaking to you? Do you not love a spouse, while simultaneously not allowing them to berate you in front of another couple?
Those are just two silly examples, but I think this is where you're getting hung up. Us men have a REALLLLL hard time with the whole "schmuck factor" thing, and it really rears its head when there is infidelity involved. We don't like to be made a fool. But if your "standing" for your marriage is PART OF A PLAN -- YOUR plan -- then who's the schmuck here? You take a position of "Yes, I am, at the moment, deciding to stand for my marriage, even though my wife is having an affair and is refusing to admit it and work at the marriage, but I have made this choice to do this FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, and I will hold out as long as I can, all the while trying to lay out and enforce healthy boundaries for me and my children. My wife is an adult, I cannot control her, and I'm praying that she comes to her senses soon, before my love for her fully runs out, but I can hold on for "x" months and I will do so, to the best of my ability. This is MY decision, this is MY stand, and I am doing it with boundaries, legal/financial protections for me and my kids, and for a finite period (uncommunicated to spouse -- just tell her "I won't wait forever") of time."
My wife asked me both during -- and after -- her affair, why I was fighting for her. Why I hadn't kicked her out immediately. I told her:
- because I took a wedding vow, before God, and I took that very seriously. It was not "for better or for better yet," it was "for better or for WORSE";
- because I loved her, and we had a lot of shared history together;
- because I didn't want to demonstrate to our four children that when things get tough, you cut and run. You make a stand and fight for what is important to you, for as long as you can, to the best of your ability;
- because if the situation were reversed, and I had say a gambling or alcohol addiction, I would hope that she would do the same and fight for ME;
- and because I didn't want to go to my death bed with REGRETS, that I should have tried harder. If I was going to err, I was going to err on the side of trying to save my marriage and keep my family intact.
When you lay out (and maybe even write down), what YOUR OWN reasons are, and give yourself an internal deadline (6 months, one year, whatever) . . . then I think, as a man, we can feel like WE are executing a plan, and that we're not being a "schmuck."
Does that make sense??
Puppy
Starsky, you are a good man.
I hope your family knows how lucky they are to have you.
That is another one that is going in my saved file.
For me it's, God purposely put this woman in my life and He has extended more grace to me than I can measure. Patience, grace and unconditional love is the example of God's perfect love. I feel compelled to extend that to my wife until He says it's time to quit. That's strictly my position on my situation and not a recommendation for anyone else. You've got to follow your own heart and conscience.
Totally agree, Jefe. I try to support people in whatever they want to try to do, while challenging them on some of their assumptions along the way. I'm fine with long "stands" as long as they are accompanied by strong boundaries, and I"m CERTAINLY not going to stand in someone's way if they feel God Himself is leading them one way or another!
Starsky
Wow that archived post is 100% on target for my sitch. Thanks starsky.
Totally great points and love the post. Thank you for sharing. It captures a lot of my feelings and my actions and words with my wife.
But my concern is that I am giving her more opptys to cake eat when she lies on me or when we have fun together. If there were no A, I would agree with you. But with the A in play, it is just cake eating. With that said, I also need to make sure she sees compassion and love at the same time.
She knows that the road back home is paved should she choose to end the A. But, I will and am pursuing a D since to date, she has elected to stay in the A.
I don't have anywhere near the level of communication or positive time with my wife. I'm sure my wife knows beyond a doubt that I don't want a divorce. I don't know that she knows that the road home is paved and smooth or how to appropriately convey that to her. Honestly... I'm not sure I have paved and smoothed the road correctly...
Sorry not wanting to hijack, but your post got me thinking. I'll move this thought over to my thread.
Totally great points and love the post. Thank you for sharing. It captures a lot of my feelings and my actions and words with my wife.
But my concern is that I am giving her more opptys to cake eat when she lies on me or when we have fun together.
I disagree. Besides, let's consider the real alternatives.
You think when she is laying on top of you, that she's cake eating???
I don't. When she is laying on you, I think you two are bonding.
Maybe it's your anger or wounded pride that makes you assume she is taking advantage of you when she's showing closeness...and I wonder if you are using the term "Cake eating" to mean
you are NOT ready to feel or act close with her, b/c you are hurt and mad. And so, you will call it "cake eating" when in reality it's that you are not done showing your anger. My question is how has your anger helped your marriage?
Has it ever helped? Has it ever worsened things or created tension? Be honest b/c this question will continue to matter.
I think physical touching and laying on you, builds closeness and is a BONDING experience some of us, would give an arm for....
and I think that if she were truly trying to cake eat, she would Not choose laying on you as the method!
In fact, the closer you two get the more it seems to upset you - but in reality I think you are confused and THAT makes you uncomfortable. Too bad.
If there were no A, I would agree with you. But with the A in play, it is just cake eating.
WHY? How is this so black and white "cause and effect" with you?? Guess I"m really missing something.
With that said, I also need to make sure she sees compassion and love at the same time.
Absolutely true^^^.
She knows that the road back home is paved should she choose to end the A.
How and why would you assume she "knows" this? seriously??
But, I will and am pursuing a D since to date, she has elected to stay in the A.
Then I guess you have to decide what is really "Working" to help you restore your m,
and what just makes your pride feel less wounded.
The two do not have to conflict, but I sure would ask your DB coach about this, a lot.
"Cake-eating" is allowing a wayward spouse to enjoy the benefits of being married to you (financially, emotionally, physically) while also carrying on an affair with another person who is simultaneously meeting the needs.
Hence the phrase, "Having their cake and eating it too. "
I think Shodan is saying "That may be 'bonding' with my wife, but I cannot bind with her as long as she's with someone else, and lying to me about it." A BOUNDARY.
I do see anger in your posts, Shodan, but it seems like a healthy/normal amount from where I sit. Are you making DECISIONS based on anger? That's the important question that you have to consider.
Starsky
I am confused more than anything else. When my W and I are together, things can be pretty great. We act and look like a marriage couple sans any true affection. She lays on me at night and we sleep very well together.
But my concern is that allowing this to happen will only give her the oppty to stay in her A and have all of her needs met by two men. She has no reason to stop the A. Hence my boundaries: I will not share my W with a third party.
Part of me wants to just give her time to sort out her life. Based on the convos that we have had, she had a lot of bottled up hurt and anger. She just was not happy and admits to never telling me. She had been thinking about asking for a D for a long time. Further, since she is cooling it with the OM (to some extent) part of me wants to give her time and not continue to push for the D and just let it play out.
Here are some of the signs of her cooling it with him:
- she is spending WAY less time in NYC
- when she goes, she has gone on first flights out in the morning or taken the last flight home...she easily could have stayed another night
- I am gone this weekend in FL visiting my parents and my kids are with my MIL...she is alone for two days yet she is home and not in NYC (I have spoken with her a few times this weekend about my mom (she had a massive stroke) and have a good sense for what my W has done this weekend...the OM is not there)
- her text exchange with him implied that she is cooling it
But, she still is in contact with him via phone and text. Even if the PA has now become an EA, the EA still is damaging to our R.
So what do I do? Give her time and be patient OR enforce my boundary that I will not share my W with a third party.
Yep, you've summed it up pretty well. And that IS the question.
I am confused more than anything else. When my W and I are together, things can be pretty great. We act and look like a marriage couple sans any true affection. She lays on me at night and we sleep very well together.
But my concern is that allowing this to happen will only give her the oppty to stay in her A and have all of her needs met by two men. She has no reason to stop the A.
I do believe I Understand where you are coming from. It's a valid point of view.
I merely submit another possibility. (NO, it's NoT that she's being a great wife).
But the way you and some others post above, I have to ask you if you REALLY think your wife is "just fine" with having two men in her world?
You believe that she feels great about having an affair AND knowing that you are deeply wounded by it? Sure, she was hurt and angry and lonely a long time but I am not ready to believe that your wife is "just LOVING every minute of her groovy 'taking it all' lifestyle
No, I think she's confused; i think she is in some or a lot of pain and IMO, she very much wishes she knew what she wanted AND OR that she knew she could trust the changes you are making
and that you won't revert to ways she could not abide by, if you two reconcile too soon.
Please do Not oversimplify my comment to say that I believe you should do nothing...it's not that. It's just that the "cake eating" is a phrase I strongly believe is thrown around too much and used too loosely.
Jmho. Hence my boundaries: I will not share my W with a third party.
Saying this^^ makes sense if you know what you will Do about it and when...or the criteria you'll use for deciding..I get it and think that's smart.
It's just the rigid application of something out of anger that concerns me...a lot. And anger Might be a factor in how you got here in the first place.
That's why it's hard to assess for you. WE don't know if it was or if that's something your spouses uses to justify her choice.
OTOH, do you think your wife is really the type of person to just "TAKE" an affair indefinitely? And this would be done by her, even though
things between you two were great?
I mean, it is pretty rare for a woman to have an affair that "means nothing",to her, wheres some men who have affairs claim that very thing.
Sure, the cheating man might be lying, but that's not point. The point is that the affair of a wife can be more threatening to the m b/c of what it means about the marriage itself.
Do you get what I mean? (You don't have to agree, but am I being clear enough?)
Anyhow, it all just goes back to You having some hard work to do so that you can feel less fearful that this will happen again (b/c your "insurance policy", which is not foolproof and nothing ever is, is that your changes are going to lessen the chances of her wanting to break her marriage vows again. Make sense?
Guess it boils down to this: Most wives don't break their vows casually. Your wife doesn't have a history of selfishly grabbing what she wants without regard to your feelings.
On the contrary, from the things you have said about her (not that much but enough to get a thumb nail sketch), she's just not the "cake eating" type IMO To me the danger isn't cake eating so much just letting things take too long for you to feel alright and to make sure the respect she has for you doesn't falter in any long term way.
H's in situations like this have to find serious inner reserves in themselves to put their wounded egos aside, and dig deep to figure out their roles in this...and then to do THEIR work and also set healthy boundaries. Absolutely keep the channels open, and that has to be agreed to by both of you.
Once she says or you believe that the OM is out of the picture, AND that she wants to work on the m, IMO< you need to be ready to say He11 yes ---with some conditions on both of you...whatever it is she needs from YOU
and the transparency and other factors You need FROM HER-all come into play. Not yet...
I never insist or believe that people have to agree on the past, (and there are several reasons for me saying that but they are time consuming at the moment).
I think you must agree on your future. The "From this day forward" clause of our vows comes to mind...kind of brilliant...
Part of me wants to just give her
time to sort out her life. Based on the convos that we have had, she had a lot of bottled up hurt and anger. She just was not happy and admits to never telling me. She had been thinking about asking for a D for a long time.
Wow, that's ^^^ A Lot to have been dealing with. So, what do YOU make of all ^^^ that?
Further, since she is cooling it with the OM (to some extent) part of me wants to give her time and not continue to push for the D and just let it play out.
I hear that.^^Here are some of the signs of her cooling it with him:
- she is spending WAY less time in NYC
- when she goes, she has gone on first flights out in the morning or taken the last flight home...she easily could have stayed another night
Agreed...it Seems like you are onto something.- I am gone this weekend in FL visiting my parents and my kids are with my MIL...she is alone for two days yet she is home and not in NYC (I have spoken with her a few times this weekend about my mom (she had a massive stroke) and have a good sense for what my W has done this weekend...the OM is not there)
- her text exchange with him implied that she is cooling it
But, she still is in contact with him via phone and text. Even if the PA has now become an EA, the EA still is damaging to our R.
So what do I do? Give her time and be patient OR enforce my boundary that I will not share my W with a third party.
Sounds like you are saying "On one hand things seem to be going my way and this battle looks like I'm going to win it- as long as I keep my changes going and We keep channels open, etc.
BUT OTOH, I'm still really hurt and angry and so..."
SO, what you are doing is working in your favor. To ME, I'd be warning you not to blow it b/c your approach is helping you two, not hurting and so I can't see why you would change course now, assuming things are as they seem.
Without becoming a doormat (which I don't think you are at all...yet at least)
Why not ask your DB coach about all this?
B/C my take on it and Starsky's will vary.
I think what you are doing is working. Do you?
[color:#3366FF]
Sounds like you are saying "On one hand things seem to be going my way and this battle looks like I'm going to win it- as long as I keep my changes going and We keep channels open, etc.
BUT OTOH, I'm still really hurt and angry and so..."
25,
This is the second time I think you've said that Shodan is doing this, and I'm just not seeing it. Which decision(s) do you see him making from a place of hurt and anger?
What I see him clearly stating ad nauseum is "OTOH, I simply cannot live in a marriage with a third person in it." He has seemed calm, introspective, thoughtful and rational, albeit
torn and confused of course due to the burden of the decisions he has to make. But I'm just not seeing where he's operating emotionally out of hurt and anger??
If he was, I'd be the first to tell him he needs to cool off before making such important life-altering decisions.
I am going to respond on my other thread...my fault for starting another one too soon