DB’ers- Newbie here reaching out for some emergency help because with all the rookie mistakes I made. I’ve only got only a few days to 180 my previous actions if that’s the right course. I just sent the Harley “Since you can’t end your affair I want a separation” letter. Predictable (non)results from the W. Only found this site, MWD and DR after sending the letter and now am seeking your guidance to figure out if I should backtrack and if so whether I go all the way to 180/ Step five or if instead I should employ some degree of the LRT.
Vitals:
Me: 45, W- 43, Married 15, Together 21, S-14 D-12. A started Fall 2013; Discovered early June 2014; Ultimatum issued (prematurely) early September 2014.
Short Version:
W is fully in the fog. Despite discovery, MC, and all the talks and promises of “working on the marriage” and “ending the A” the A continues. W has denied and only admitted what she had to every step of the way. W now adamantly denies the A continues but I have absolute proof. I was a wreck and at the end of my rope so I sent her the “Since you can’t end your affair I want a separation” letter Harley recommends. No change- denial continues. But DB and the threads here have given me new hope and I want to try and save this- before we go through separation or she becomes a WAW. I’m now not ready to separate yet, but if I totally retreat I will lose all credibility- so how do I pull back the “lets separate” without losing credibility or her believing my 180 is a ploy?
Complicating this is the fact that although I’ve been “amazing and level headed in dealing with the A” (her words), her desire all along has been to “work on things” (we still have date nights, fun talks, watch TV together, etc.) which I think means one of two things:
1. She really is confused and although she is in love with the OM, she has reservations about whether she has a future with him but also may not believe our marriage can be saved (she has mentioned several times the “Too Good to Leave Too Bad to Stay” book). She is truly torn and undecided what to do.
2. She is stringing me along to buy time because the OM ‘s live-in girlfriend is about to kick him out (she also found out about the A) and the W needs time for OM to get set up in his new place so the two of them are only dealing with one problem at a time. (I saw references to this in her TM to the OM but it may just be a line she is feeding him too). In which case I’m the sucker facilitating the A if I don’t separate.
Options/Next Steps:
I think way my only hope at this point is to stay and DB like crazy until either I hit the wall, she ends the A, or she goes WAW. So I’ve got the 37 rules printed out and have been upbeat the last two days (trying not to overdo it) and my thought is to say to her that “I’m glad you agreed to the separation and I believe that is the best way forward for us to potentially save this marriage. But you asked for some time to think and sort things out for yourself before we pursue separation. If that will mean a more orderly separation process that is better for us and the kids I’m willing to give you time to think before seeing a separation mediator.” Good plan or pipedream?
Sorry for the long rambling post, but like most guys here I’m lost and don’t know where to turn- on the one hand, its “only” been three months post-discovery of her A but on the other hand the A is nearly a year old, she is refusing to say it is active and I’ve got her agreed to at least talk terms for a separation. So if now is the time for LRT (I don’t think it is because I’m not at the end of my rope and she isn’t walking out the door) I don’t want to simply slide back to facilitating the A because it’s easier to stay than go at this point. DB from here or continue to push the separation? Really appreciate any and all thoughts.
Welcome to the board
Get out and GAL.
DETACH.
Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.
Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hi Bart42, you are in the right place. A couple of 2x4's first:
- Don't give ultimatums without being willing to enforce them.
- And 2nd, you are mind-reading (see points 1 and 2, above). Start detaching, which is your best hope for yourself.
Now you wrote that W denies the affair after you gave her the ultimatum, so do you have undeniable proof that she is continuing the affair? Isn't the easy way out of your dilemma to assume she is telling the truth? Best wishes.
You already sent it (and I personally think it was the right thing to do), so I would stay with that firm course, otherwise you will TOTALLY lose all credibility and respect with her. Apply the after-the-LRT technique, and go as dim as possible considering you have the kids.
Why are you still going on date nights if she is in an active affair?
Starsky
Isn't the easy way out of your dilemma to assume she is telling the truth?
It's been my observation both in DBing and in life that the "easy way out" is rarely the correct one.
Starsky
Thanks, all- appreciate the quick support.
Wet, The A definitely continues- before I learned how destructive snooping was, I saw all the txts about the meetups, hotel rooms, etc. I've shown her proof (such as plane tickets with his name on them) to her before she admitted to the PA and she just denied, so putting the proof in front of her this time will do no good, but I am sure the PA continues.
I don't want to lose creditability, but I've got newfound strength from coming here and from DR, and I don't think I am ready to give up after three months. I didn't tell her "end it or else" but instead simply stated that I wanted to separate b/c I could not continue with our marriage while the A continued. I'm still thinking perhaps I can walk a fine line here and say I still want to separate, that I will not work on our marriage, but after 15 years of marriage I can give her a little time to find her center and get in a good place, for her sake and for the kids, before we start the separation process. I can maybe do that while going dark and GAL without starting the separation process rolling. At least that's my (current) hope.
BTW, all the "date nights" were before I knew she had never ended it.
I'm still thinking perhaps I can walk a fine line here and say I still want to separate, that I will not work on our marriage, but after 15 years of marriage I can give her a little time to find her center and get in a good place . . .
"Blccccch." 
"Find her center" ???
If you told her you needed to separate yourself if her affair continued, then you need to back it up. Have you asked her to leave?
Starsky
BTW, all the "date nights" were before I knew she had never ended it.
I'm confused. You just posted this morning that you "still have date nights, fun talks, watch TV together, etc" ???
Starsky, sorry for any rambling or bad editing. Two main "recovery" periods- after I initially found out about the A, and again after I found out it was a PA not just an EA. After each, we worked back to date nights, movies on the couch, good family vacations, handholding, basic smooching, spooning, etc. The basics. After Labor Day, when I found out she's been lying and it never ended, there has been none of that.
Don't take my "find the center" comments too literally. Her life is a mess- perhaps a little MLC (although I don't want to "blame" MLC as I see here its easy to slide into long term cake eating if you're not careful), her sports injury which has removed workouts (her main stress relief) from her life; insane job pressures (she's in a high pressure full time tech job), our marriage problems which were definitely there for a few years, then dealing with all my demands around ending the A. Not making excuses for her but recognizing she is a mess and her claims of needing calmness so she can deal with all these pressures and figure out what's best for her may have a decent element of truth in it. Believe what you observe, right- well she spend Sunday basically shut down on a lounge chair in the backyard despite repeated pleas from S to do something (I was with D at sports. So the statements around needing time to sort things may not be 100% about keeping me as Plan B (then again maybe I'll get served tomorrow).
Not making excuses for her but . . .
Yeah, you kinda are.
If this is what she wants, then let her put on her BGPs and start to feel what it's like to lose you. You need to know that when she has stressors in her life -- even legitimate ones -- she's not going to turn to serial infidelity to soothe herself and her problems. And she needs to learn healthier (and more appropriate!) ways of dealing with them too.
Did she agree to any sort of a transparency plan with you after the first affair discovery? Too often us betrayed spouses are so relieved that our wives or husbands want to come back to the marriage, that we fail to put proper boundaries in place.
Starsky
Did she agree to any sort of a transparency plan with you after the first affair discovery? Too often us betrayed spouses are so relieved that our wives or husbands want to come back to the marriage, that we fail to put proper boundaries in place.
I'm not sure I can describe this properly, but basically she has lied and only admitted the bare minimum, often blending truth with lies to make a story should reasonable (to her) at each stage of discovery.
Example: I discover inappropriate txts. She claims it got crazy and was just "fantasy"- nothing real or physical. I snoop more, find a plane ticket she bought him to join her on a work trip. She claims it was in return of physical therapy sessions and he was just there at the same time for a convention- they didn't meet up. After three weeks of me pressuring she finally admits he was there and spent one night with her "because he couldn't get a hotel room" but nothing happened. I still pressure until two weeks later the OM's girlfriend calls me and tells me the whole trip was a romantic weekend and its a PA- W acknowledges this was the case but never "tells" me anything herself.
That's her- deny, and when you can't deny any more, continue to lie and minimize.
So was transparency ever part of this? Minimally. She'd turn on a find my friends app for a few days, and then it would suddenly be off, and she'd claim her phone glitched out. I'd get nervous when she left a kids event suddenly to "work" on a weekend and she'd send me a picture of her in our home office- that type of stuff. But unlocking the phone has never been on the table and she strongly and emotionally reacts (almost losing it) to any demands for transparency claiming she will never be controlled by anyone. This is partly her history- FIL physically abused MIL (MIL was poor and trapped) and she is determined to never be in a position to be dependent herself. The rest is clearly cover for her behavior. Yes, a big part of our M issues are me "trying to control her" and her inability to really open up, be vulnerable and completely let me into her life.
Did I fail to set boundaries? Absolutely. but how to I set a reasonable boundary with someone who 1) isn't admitting the A is continuing and 2) has a history of lying whenever she thinks it is the "easier" course?
Note, she claims its easier to lie given our history and how I would historically react- which was to grill her on the facts and never let it go. This is even though time and time again over these last three months when dealing with the A I have never blown up when the truth finally comes out- I've 180'ed, but I made the mistake of pointing that out to her and she clearly still thinks its an act or that the changes won't be lasting.
Your position needs to be "end your affair, and come back and work on the marriage with me. I think you will find that I am ready and willing to work on all issues, including my own contributions to our problems. But I'm not going to do it with a third person involved, and I'm not going to wait forever."
The other reason I am waffling now is because (as W has pointed out) she’s been interally dealing with our marriage problems for years, and had basically written us off, but I’ve only been dealing with this (and changing) for 3.5 months. She recognized going to the OM was not the right thing to do, but as she didn’t see a future for us but wanted to keep the home together for the kids, that’s what she did to get her needs met. I fully get now how my being a hard ass and negotiating on every point of our marriage (like it was a business transaction) caused a lot of harm and hardened her heart to me, and how my excitable nature and the stress of my life led me to create a uneasy, tense home life that she fled from. She is way more delicate and fragile than I ever believed- I was reading about how men are like water buffalos and women are like butterflies- place a pebble on the back of the buffalo and he hardly notices, put place the same pebble on a butterfly and you crush it. That really resonated with me- I had always assumed because my W was type a type A go-getter who ate people for lunch as part of her job, we should interact as co-equals and were willing and expected to negotiate for everything we wanted. Big big mistake I regret learning this deep into my marriage.
So I guess where I am now is recognizing that because of the way I have handled the A and changed things about me, we’ve been talking more freely, respectfully and openly while dealing with this A than we have in years. I’d hate to throw away all that progress by going dark- while I’ve made progress I’m not yet “the husband she would be a fool to leave” (mainly due to all my pursuing, interrogation and moodiness around the A, and I’m worried because I’m not yet at my best, the OM (or ending the marriage if that is what I push for) may just be the better choice for her.
So confused 
Well, maybe I just set an itty bitty boundary. W txted to say "can you cover the kids tomorrow morning so I can see [second] physical therapist" (OM is W's physical therapist- she was supposed to stop being treated by OM as part of a previous agreement but in fact just added a second therapist without stopping seeing OM). Instead of launching into the whole thing with her I replied "I'm not willing to discuss your therapy schedule anymore given the other aspects of your therapy choices I don't agree with. From now on please just ask me to cover the kids because you have an appointment"
Minor to be sure, but I think this is progress. Real test will be tomorrow. Tomorrow is the day her and OM typically see each other. W's typical routine is to schedule about three hours of things she doesn't end up doing (massage, IC, etc.) as a reason to be gone most of the day. So tomorrow we have a doctor's appointment, physical therapy and IC all scheduled back to back. Old me would be checking mileage on the car or calling the doctor to confirm the appointment, but new me isn't going to snoop. Will be hard but I will be calm, cool, ask no questions, appear happy and ask "as if."
Wish me luck.......
That's her- deny, and when you can't deny any more, continue to lie and minimize.
No, that's pretty much every cheater that ever walked the face of the earth. ALL CHEATERS LIE -- PERIOD.
OK, so no transparency plan was ever put in place and enforced. We won't make THAT same mistake again if we can ever get you back to a good spot!
Starsky
Thanks, Starsky. Gonna be a long day tomorrow. Reading back though my posts, in addition to losing my nerve and being bad at boundries, I'm clearly mind reading again- sigh. Hopefully I start getting better at this soon- at least I'm starting to GAL and am really really enjoying my time with the kids. Off to reread the 37 rules and think about how to action some ideas for lasting improvements in myself.
So here’s the latest:
This morning I backtracked (I know, don’t be too rough on me) from my “I want a separation” to “When I asked to separate, you asked for some time to think and consider things. I’m willing to give you some time so we both are going forward from the best possible place. My ask is that you end your relationship with OM and come back and work on our marriage with me. I think you will find that I am ready willing and able to work on all issues, including the ones I have caused. But I'm not going to work on our marriage with a third person involved, and I'm not going to wait forever."
W said “thank you” stood up and gave me a big, long hug. She then started with the “but just so we’re clear, nothing is still going on with OM.” I deflected with “I deliberately used the word “relationship”- I think we both see that your relationship with him is standing in the way of us making progress.” And I left it at that and walked out. She started to deny again but she stopped herself.
So now the real interesting time begins where I GAL like crazy, but I know I am going to be in constant fear of cake eating- she has me off her back, not pressuring, checking up or asking questions, and she gets to continue the A as we both pretend it isn’t going on! What a sweet deal for her- dinner will probably even be waiting for her on the table when she gets back from being with OM tonight.
I’m gonna need strength to keep doing this for a few months or years, but for now, I’m just trying to get through one day at a time.
Maybe I should STFU as I realize I am rambling and seem to be making way too many back to back posts. So if any of you other readers have any ideas or thoughts, I'd appreciate hearing them.
My advice would be to focus on the second half of that famous phrase "Trust . . . but verify."
Simple enough.
Starsky
My wife tried to give me the whole "we're just friends" thing too, and even lied to our adult daughters and her own parents about it (which I later had to re-confront her on, until she admitted the truth to them). But before that, I told her "OK, let's suppose for a moment that's true. You're basically telling me that your 'friendship' with this man is more important to you than the wishes of your own husband. Is that about right? I'm not okay with that."
If I was doing something "X" that was perfectly harmless, but my wife told me she had a real problem with it (let's say, casual porn use) . . . I would stop doing it, out of respect for her wishes. She's my wife.
Starsky
My advice would be to focus on the second half of that famous phrase "Trust . . . but verify."
But she's claimed since July its over, and as recently as a week ago when I was still in snoop mode I saw clear evidence they were still getting hotel rooms together. So I have ZERO reason to believe its over or that she wants it over- to the contrary all evidence shows she is deep in the fog and very emotionally dependent on OM. Since she isn't ready to tell the truth there is no way to verify without snooping, and I'm not going there. Unless I'm missing something, its seems I STFU and DB, and once she shows signs of OM withdrawal or wanting to come back to me, THEN I verify through transparency and NC agrements- right?
Sorry; I forgot you had already confirmed she's still hot-and-heavy with OM. In that case, whenever she says the "we're just friends" thing, you should have put your hand up and said "Please stop it. We both know you're lying to me right now, and it's incredibly disrespectful to me, our marriage and our family." If she continues to lie, say "This conversation's over. When you're ready to talk to me from a place of truthfulness, we can talk some more. I'm going to _______ (some GAL activity)." And leave.
I don't think you can control whether or not they have an affair. I DID ultimately decide, after about 60 days of this, that I COULD control whether or not she sat there and lied to my face, and to our family. And so I made THAT my hard boundary.
I even used the "we've always taught our kids that we don't lie in our family. Even if our marriage ends, we're still going to have to co-parent effectively, and I'm not going to try to raise a family with you built on a foundation of deceit. You need to tell them the truth about your affair" card.
It worked.
Starsky
. . . and YES, you DB and GAL your butt off as you go!!!
Bart, you will learn believe nothing what she says. These vets like starsky and Mr bond are spot on. Follow there advice and keep your self strong. Don't show weekness, no begging, crying, it won't work. We have all been there, it's hard but don't give in your w is acting like a teenager. Hang tuff.
Thanks, igit. This week and last I'm through the crying/moping/not eating/pleading bit- I've found a lot of strength here, and even though I know its going to be a rollercoaster, I feel good about my prospects for keeping this up. Took my S and his friend to a pro football game last Sunday (W not invited), have signed up for a SCUBA class for next week and will get some golf instruction the week after that so I'm working on the GAL thing, too.
Feel like the W is in complete denial, though- gave the "I refuse to work on the marriage while A continues" speech yesterday only today to get a phone call while W was running errands to "check in and say hi" and to ask whether we wanted to do dinner tonight or tomorrow night together. As in she is presuming we are doing a dinner together this week because we've been doing date night dinners for a few months now. WTF? I hedged with "we'll see what the kids schedules are and figure out the family dinner plans" but I really don't know how to handle this one- I want to be happy and outgoing and not sulk, but I know "date nights" are a no-no at this stage. Perhaps I will try to deflect this into "we can grab dinner, sure" and not acknowledge a "date night" part of it- I'm worried if I flat out say "no date nights because I told you I am not working on this marriage while the A continues" we are just going to have a sulking evening at home where we avoid each other. I'm thinking that doing dinner but avoiding any R talk may be my best bet. I've got a few hours to figure this one out though.
No she can have dinner at home and sulk, YOU have made plans for dinner (even if it's with take out in your car)
If it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck it's still a duck even if you call it a fish......
Just because you don't call something date night doesn't mean it changes the meaning at all.
Maybe tell her "I am sorry but while your still in contact with OM I will be making my own plans for dinner out" and then leave.
Maybe tell her "I am sorry but while your still in contact with OM I will be making my own plans for dinner out" and then leave.
BINGO.
Thanks, both- I need to get a backbone! Just soo many months of conflict over the A (that clearly did no good) that now its hard for me to do anything that will cause more conflict now that we are at least "getting along." I got realize "getting along" is just me agreeing to her game of cake eating and toughen up!
So thanks to the forum, I called a friend and for drinks after work, which led nicely to dinner with his wife at a local restaurant. Picked up S-14 from his activity, rolled home and into a DVR'ed football game. W asking questions about my activities and whereabouts. Better than any so called "date night"!
Nicely done sir!
Very nice! Keep up the good work
Alright team, help me with this one which adds a level of difficulty for me. We have quarterly dinner parties. Four couples, alternating houses. It's our turn to host and W just texted me (I was out GALing at golf lessons) about picking a date. Now if I go with "I don't want to do any R activities while your R is with OM and not me" it's definitely going to cause some tension and spillover as our friends are so far clueless about our issues. Not sure I want our issues public at this point, but I don't want to pretend to the W we have a R either.
Makes me wonder about how you are supposed to handle the "life goes on" activities while practicing DB- going to weddings/birthday parties, dinner with couple friends, planning our annual winter trip, getting a rental for our summer week at the beach, etc- nothing specifically in the DB book that I saw, but it just seems super weird to try and be upbeat and GALing while refusing to do things like this.
Anybody who has been there have any specific advice on how you handle these more long term planning things while being in marital limbo with a spouse who wants to live in denial?
I would say pick a date, host but be THE life of the party.... as in be Mr social butterfly, you are busy in the kitchen then busy making drinks, then talking to everyone in the room BUT your wife.
Don't ignore her but don't engage her. If she asks you a question answer it as if one of the other couples was asking them move on to another task/conversation.
Busy yourself with cleaning up and getting everyone another round of drinks. Basically this is still a social event for YOU and you can still enjoy yourself.
When the last person leaves make sure the kitchen is clean and go to bed with a "that was a really nice night, good night" to your wife.
And if she cooks the meal you could add in "dinner was delicious"
Twinmom, you are great! Thanks so much- while I'm not the social butterfly I am the cook, and a damn good one according to all our friends so this should be my chance to shine on all points. Thanks for all the sage advice. I guess that means we keep planning the long term family stuff too? Just don't want to send mixed messages as I've already given the "you need to end the A and work on our R, but I'm not going to wait for ever" speech.
Bart I would ask some of the vets here for help on the long term questions. My situation was a little complicated, but for Easter I hosted my family and his family (as usual) and H was invited (he was living with OW) but he didn't show up. I made the holiday the same for the kids as every other holiday except their dad wasn't here. I couldn't control that.
I would say pick a date, host but be THE life of the party.... as in be Mr social butterfly, you are busy in the kitchen then busy making drinks, then talking to everyone in the room BUT your wife.
Don't ignore her but don't engage her. If she asks you a question answer it as if one of the other couples was asking them move on to another task/conversation.
Busy yourself with cleaning up and getting everyone another round of drinks. Basically this is still a social event for YOU and you can still enjoy yourself.
When the last person leaves make sure the kitchen is clean and go to bed with a "that was a really nice night, good night" to your wife.
And if she cooks the meal you could add in "dinner was delicious"
This ^^^
So what does mdu say? 1 step forward, 1000 steps back- well that was my Saturday night. GAL'ed all day, ran errands, and other than D's sporting event, had little contact with W. Came home, put on a football game and cooked a nice meal for the family. After dinner W shifts the conversation to her work and I validate her choices about going for a big promotion and offer some thoughts to consider when she develops her strategy. Nice conversation, I don't let it linger too long and I end it and start cleaning up. W says "thanks" and goes to give me a kiss, so instead of allowing that I turn and peck her on the cheek and walk away.
Then W's phone rings and it is OM. This is pretty ballsy and they always txt- he never calls her when she is home. I at least resist the urge to answer the call myself, but I show her her phone and she scurries into the other room to take the call. Apparently they didn't talk because she comes right back out. I try to play it cool by going to our room to try and relax instead of starting an argument, but w follows me and starts some BS story about how it was probably OM's Girlfriend using OMs phone. We start getting into the whole I state facts she denies pattern, which sucked and I wish I didn't go there. After a few minutes though I pull it back to "you need to end A, and I told you I will give you some time, but things like this are drastically shortening my ability to give you that time." Then I walked away and we avoided each other for the rest of the night. Lousy night sleep where my PMA disappeared and the demons came back- hate being back in that place.
In typical fashion, this morning it's like nothing happened last night. Complete avoidance and denial. I'd like to say "I will not tolerate OM calling you when you are in our home" but it's a weak boundary that she can't control and it's not like I'm going to pack my bags and move out the next time her phone rings and it's him.
I'm confused on whether I should be bringing this up again to set a boundary or letting it slide and not saying another word in true "as if" fashion- I made myself clear last night so not sure bringing it up again to set a weak boundary is the thing to do.
Anyway I've got about 4 hours to decide as I'm flying out this afternoon for a 4 day work trip, so contact will be limited with w for most of the week.
Guess that question is answered- Went to the family computer to print my boarding pass- she left the email application open and she registered for Match.com this morning. Also she changed the email account for it to a hushmail account I never new existed.
Wasn't snooping- it was just there plain as day. almost wonder if she wanted me to see it. Guess I'm not supposed to mention this one and keep GAL'ing? this isn't getting any easier!
So we had a good hour talk, just the two of us catching up on various life and job stuff, including some personal commentary by her about how her IC is helping her and how she feels great these last few days. I felt it was personal and we connected. W mentions the OM call last night and says "I got a txt [from OM] apologizing for the call" (because she pretends they are not in constant contact). I decide to not dive back in and reply with "you know my stance on that issue".
.......and I just got in a taxi for my trip to the airport. W gives me a hug, says "I love you." I don't say anything but offer to help with S and D however I can while I'm away. I get in the cab and W. blows me goodbye kisses.
So so confused. I know this will be a roller coaster but I am sick to my stomach right now. So I'm not supposed to believe anything she says, but do I not believe the "I love you" part or the "I just signed up for a dating site with a secret email address" part? I feel like I don't know what the h*ll is going on- are we feeling good and connecting or are you looking for other men? It seems so so strange to keep DB'ing when I just want to shake her and say "WTF do you want????"
Big huge important week of business meetings this week that I need to be at the top of my game for, but all I want to do now is stay in my hotel room and be sick.
No idea how I'm supposed to handle this latest development. Off to re-read the rules again.
She SAYS "I love you," she DOES sign up for a dating site and creates a secret email account in the process.
How is that in anyway "difficult" to figure out which is truth?
Hi Bart, yeah earlier in my separation my W pulled the same crazy thing of telling me she "loved" me, while also being on the dating sites. I got so frustrated, I forbade her from saying that she loved me, and I would send her definitions of what love reallyyyy means, being in our actions toward the other person. I did get her stop telling me that she loved me though. Fat lotta good that's done me. Keep your chin and emotions up.
Thanks Starsky for the 2x4 and wet for the encouraging words. I re-read chunks of DB on the flight today, and what keeps hitting me right now is MWD's comments around both me needing patience and how 1 month of change for every 1 year of marriage is a decent yardstick. I guess I'm just not ready to demand separation or go dark at this point because if it fails I'll feel I jumped the gun ( and I say this knowing full well after reading the other threads here that most successful DBs will say they waited too long and we're too timid!)- I'm just not there yet.
So, if I can't pull the trigger on going dark, that leaves me DBing and GAL- so business as usual. Some small part of me wants to see the good in the dating site profile- she did it on her home email account, not work, and she left it there in her open email box for me to see (I did this to her about a month ago by deliberately leaving apartment sites open on the computer). Besides, unless she's looking for a harem, that may at least mean she doesn't see OM as her future.
I know I'm not facing up to the likely scenario, but with limited options I'm choosing to soldier on. At least I squelched the urge to call her when I landed and say how much I enjoyed our talk this am.
Ps- Starsky, following your switch in mdu's thread- thoughts and prayers to you and the mrs right now.
Bart, please, please, please listen to the vets on this. NO SNOOPING! Don't look at her dating profile, it will only hurt you. Be strong on this, I am a voice of experience on this - the irreversible I have at my snooping never goes away.
Thanks wet- I read a comment by one of the vets in another thread to the effect that whatever she is doing now is no worse than what she's already done, so there's no need to snoop. That's enough to prevent me from snooping so far.
I am however wondering if the dating site thing is her reaction to me GALing, but that would be mind reading so I'm trying not too much to think about that either. I just can't wrap my head around pleasant, nice enjoyable times together and her actions. Even if she's written us off in her mind why not just pull the trigger and ask for the D? Don't get the point of this, but I'm not sure she does, either.
Bart,
Sorry you're here. I hope you turn things around.
I think Starsky's advice is going to get you the most traction here. He's succeeded. That's saying alot.
I did not save my marriage. All I can do is share my mistakes.
Couple of things re: snooping.
Your wife has demonstrated herself to lie and even try to do so in the face of clear evidence. She's done this repeatedly. So actually believing anything she says (that the affair ended) is pretty foolish. The ONLY way you're going to know she's ended it is by snooping. Sorry, dude.
The point that snooping only upsets you is partially true. It will drive you nuts. But, on the other hand, she can't be trusted at this point to tell the truth.
Regarding the dating site. Quite simple: She's interested in dating other men. She's cheating on you know, and she's taking steps to continue cheating on you. Or, she can just be curious to see if she can do better than the OM. She's not playing mind games -- she's pretty openly narcissistic at this point.
Re: the pleasant times together. My ex was sleeping with me and the OM (when I didn't know they were having an affair). She enjoyed stability with me and the romance with the OM. She was waiting for OM to leave his wife so that she could divorce me and run off with him. In the meantime, she was quite happy to have 2 men in her life. Cake-eating.
I have a question: On the socio-economic scale (income/job/status). Where do you, your wife and the OM stand? I sounds like she makes more money than the OM.
Look. She knows you know and is still trying to lie to you. At some point you are going to need a plan. You can't sit in limbo trying to "get-a-life" and out-nice the OM forever.
Even in classic divorce-busting there is the LRT, After the Last Resort Technique and Ultimatums.
My concern is you will drag this on too long and she'll lose attraction for you. Make a plan and stick with it. With a time-frame. I think Starsky can help.
Also for a completely different (and humorous) take on infidelity -- visit the site Chump Lady.
--Theoden
Thanks for the whack on the head. So I've got a WAW who has written off our marriage. Learning something new each day- I know I've been slow to follow the advice here, but I'd be grateful if you all could please help me get back on track and understand my options.
To answer your Q, OM is a 30 year old numnutz with little financial future- he is a party boy. W makes six figures a year- she doesn't need him financially.
So back to me:
A going on for almost a year; known to me for 3.5 months
During 3.5 months I fix much of what W saw wrong with me, but she notices, but is too far gone to care.
Even though I fix historical shortcomings, I still plead, mope and cry for a solid 3 months of this time.
W continues to disrespect me and our marriage- she has no problem continuing A and lying.
I only GAL and DB starting two weeks ago.
I don't want to separate, I want to keep the family together and save my marriage.
So what are my options? Telling her to stop it useless. Moving out myself is unacceptable for the picture it paints to my children. Telling her "stop it or move out" will result in status quo. Everyone says going dark is very hard with kids.
So what do I do? How the #%^* can I set a boundary where the threat isn't me moving out or filing for a D I don't want? Seems my only option starsky's original advice of the After the LR technique? Any modifications suggested given the history I've posted? Seems I've got to say "I told you I wanted to save our marriage but was unable to do that with OM in the picture. I gave you the time you asked for to think. You used it to sign up for a dating service so I have your answer. I suggest you get a lawyer as mine will be contacting you." Is this really my only hope??????
So spent the evening re-reading DB and I can see how filing for D/pushing separation seems my only remaining option to hopefully wake her up- problem is DR consels against this unless you are truly ready- and I am not ready for a D. I guess that leaves me as supporting cake eating for a little wile longer until I either get up the courage to end it, she does, or she magically comes out of this fog (little chance, I know). Right now my mindset is "every day we're together is another day to try and tear down that wall and have her maybe see the new you is the real you."
Can't stand how pathetic I've become but just don't have the courage to end this and call it quits on my marriage and a life with my kids.
Bart, I've been where you are so I understand your frustration. It's hard to set the boundary of 'work on the R or I file' if you're not ready. It took me mos of being in the dark about W's A (or maybe just keeping my eyes shut) until I was ready to lay down that option.
I can say that 6 mos ago, when I first discovered evidence that it was more than a friendship, I told W that as long as she was in a R with OM, I didn't think she should stay at the house and as long as she was friends with him, we wouldn't be friends. That did lead to her moving out, but I also think the relationship with OM heated up. I also did a lot of waffling on being friends with W too, which probably didn't help.
I wish I would have taken a stand earlier on, but I wasn't 'ready'. Keep GAL-ing and spend time evaluating your options and what you can/can't live with. I truly believe the earlier you take a stand, the better chance you have of saving your M.
Bart,
If you're not ready for an ultimatum, that's OK.
Here are some things you CAN do right now:
1. Take care of yourself -- surround yourself with friends and family.
2. Take up a hobby/activity that gets you our of your own head -- rock climbing, martial arts, yoga, boxing, etc. This will give your mind time to rest. they force you to intensely focus.
3. Accept that, for the moment, your're wife is in a fog. She'll lie, cheat and steal. She can't be reasoned with. She may or may no snap out of her fog. When you're ready she can be made to feel the consequences of her actions. That may or may not work. Right now she's not feeling the consequences for her actions, eventually she will. All in good time. What you are focusing on now is getting your game back.
4. Realize you have time on your side. IF you take too long, you'll be worn down. But for now take a break from the drama. Regather your resources and prepare for battle!
5. DO NOT move out of your own home. This may affect custody issues in the future if things go south.
6. See a competent family law attorney. This doesn't mean you are getting a divorce. But it does mean you need to know your rights and learn how to protect your situation.
7. As an exercise, ask yourself if the marriage went south, what would YOU want? Custody of the children? The house? Shared custody? 50/50? This way, if she decides to pull the plug on the marriage then, at least, you know what you want and are prepared to get it. Don't getting dragged kicking and screaming into a divorce. You may win back your wife or you may not. You need to realize that if the worse comes to pass, you'll survive. What's most paralyzing now is your fear of losing your family. The worst case scenario is your children live in a broken home and you stop being married to a cheater and pathological liar. Divorce is bad for children -- all the studies show it. However what's worse is you remaining in an abusive marriage where you are cuckolded and psychologically emasculated daily. Your health with collapse if you put up with it long term. I thought a divorce was a death sentence -- but it's not. The best case scenario is your restore your marriage, the next best case is your divorce with dignity and rebuild a life for yourself. The worst case if you keep your head in the sand, get emotionally and physically sick, and eventually get dragged into a financial ruinous divorce and remain bitter for years. Think of options, A, B and C. Work on the fear and your actions will seem less reactive and tenuous. Stop walking on eggshells. Right now, you are acting like you are a footnote in your wife's life. In a healthy relationship, you are co-stars in the play. For now, your wife needs to be the footnote in YOUR life - that's necessary for your well-being. LIVE YOUR LIFE.
8. Stop chasing, begging and pleading for your marriage. Be strong, competent and mysterious. Until you are ready for more serious action, don't talk about the affair with her. Just be honest when she lies to you. You have to decide if the Last Resort Technique is appropriate now. Sounds like it may be. It's really for your own sanity.
9. You may want to stop snooping on a daily basis for your own mental health. But, perhaps once a week, you may want to gather evidence of the affair and keep yourself informed. Again, she's a pathological liar right now.
10. Take some steps to protect your assets. This is one way to remind her you know what's going on.
11. Go to the website: Chump Lady. She advocates a "choose now, me or him" take no prisoners approach to reconciliation. If you take that with a grain of salt, her other advice is helpful about taking care of yourself and protecting your assets. It's also funny AND will help you channel your anger/pain into constructive action.
Best of luck.
So spent the evening re-reading DB and I can see how filing for D/pushing separation seems my only remaining option to hopefully wake her up- problem is DR consels against this unless you are truly ready- and I am not ready for a D. I guess that leaves me as supporting cake eating for a little wile longer until I either get up the courage to end it, she does, or she magically comes out of this fog (little chance, I know).
In my experience (10 years, 25,000 posts as three different usernames on this message forum alone) this approach has three basic, but very serious problems with it:
1. Staying in limbo and allowing the affair to continue to go on basically right in front of you will sap your strength, kill your self-esteem and emasculate you. This will in turn make you a less emotionally-healthy partner for a possible future relationship.
2. Your wife -- seeing that you are allowing it -- will lose respect (and therefore, attraction and ultimately LOVE) for you.
3. If her OM1 affair does end up imploding (most likely by her OM1 dumping her), women in your type of situation almost always turn to an OM2. Then it's "Lather, Rinse, Repeat" time.
Trust me,
there is NOTHING good about Limbo. Can you handle a week of this, or even a month? Sure. You never HAVE to do anything TODAY. But Limbo is a path of wretched pain and further family emotional and financial destruction if it goes on for any length of time, in my experience and observation.
Starsky
Thanks, Tarheel- no doubt, timing is my big dilemma here. DR advises patience, and the MLC folks here seem wiling to wait yeas for the WS to work though things, but the vets with success stories all stay a hard stand earlier is the best course. I feel like my whole life is resting on this decision- such a hard hard call to make.
and the MLC folks here seem wiling to wait yeas for the WS to work though things . . .
. Any good vet MLC'er will tell you that it's more important than EVER if you're going to "stand" for any length of time.
Also, the MLC landscape is littered with a lot of pain and damage in that amount of time, if you don't do it right. Only the cream of the crop can pull it off, in my observation. I don't believe that 95% of men can go more than 6 months without severe damage to their emotional well-being.
Starsky is 100% right.
Waiting saps your strength and makes her lose respect for you.
Living in denial is toxic for you and your children.
IF you sit in limbo your wife will serial cheat until she finds her "soul-mate" and then she'll divorce you. By that time you'll be too worn out to even know what you want anymore.
Sometimes ultimatums are the one thing that people respect. They show that you are there, that you have self-esteem and that you are real. No one is attracted to a cuckold.
There are guys in this forum that temporarily saved their marriages by "Getting a life" being the best husband they could be and "nicing" their wives back into the marriage. Here's what happened: sooner or later the husbands slipped back into their normal behavior. Their wives (who never owned up to the pain and suffering they caused their families) and ended up self-soothing by cheating again.
Also don't forget the male/female dynamics which are more real than we want to admit. Part of your attractiveness is "manning up".
--theoden
All, really appreciate your willingness to help and your advices. I realize I need to man up- I see how W can have no respect for a man who tolerates this behavior.
So how do I convey strength and start down the D path without speeding into a D I'd like to avoid?
Ask her to work with me on terms for a D (with a mediator) so that the impact on our children and finances are minimized? Simply lawyer up?
Something like "I told you I would not work on this marriage while your A continued and asked for a separation. You asked for some additional time to work out your thoughts and you have used that time to further disrespect me and this M. A divorce is not my choice, but I will not tolerate being treated in this way. Let me know by Thursday if you are willing to meet with a mediator to work out terms for our divorce. If I do not hear from you I will be retaining an attorney. I will discuss terms of our divorce or issues concerning our children, but otherwise I have nothing to say to you." Then I go dark. Is this it? Could I talk about separation rather than divorce and maintain credibility? This is just so hard when D isn't my goal.
No. No grand pronouncements (especially legal ones -- never tip your hand legally). Whatever you decide you need to do, just DO. She's a big girl and will understand that it's a consequence of her continuing to violate your core boundary.
Look, no one's telling you to do this. But it has to at least be on the table, and you SHOULD know what your legal rights (and responsibilities) are anyway. Get more info, and be prepared for any eventuality. Only YOU can decide when you can no longer remain in the marriage -- that's not for any of us to decide. We can only point out to you some of the pitfalls of "limbo" that you may not be seeing clearly right now.
I ultimately had to file (hired an atty, hired a mediator). I also saved my marriage.
Starsky
Bart,
Very good advice here from Starsky and theoden.
Take a long, hard look at theoden's list. Truth in every single point. Point 7 is without a doubt the hardest one to come to terms with, but it is essential to putting a plan together for YOU, for your life.
As with anything in life, your best chance at getting what you want is to first know what you want. Make your plan, knowing the only one you can really count on is you. It is a painful process, but very empowering. It will force you to confront what you want to do with your life, and how you want to live it.
I believe the confidence this builds is not only healthy for you, but projects you in the best light to your W. She may or may not care, but if you make your plan based on your desires and it's consistent with your ideals, then if W chooses not to be part of that, as tragic as that may seem now, you'll find you can be at peace with what is ultimately her decision.
If you care to, read my sitch. There's a lot of similarity. Maybe you'll learn what not to do, or get a few ideas of what to do. I was where you are. In my own time I took my life back and made my plan. My W now has a very short time left to make some tough decisions. Months ago I told her the decisions were inevitable, and the choices would be less attractive as time passed, but they would be her decisions. I took the choice of living with me and dating OM off the table.
Whatever she chooses, I can see a path to where I want to be 1, 2 and 5 years from now, and that feels really, really good.
Bart,
Your goal is reconciliation OR divorce. Unless you want to live in an open marriage.
Again Starsky is right. No pronouncements. First talk to a lawyer YOURSELF. Find out your rights, protect yourself.
Also condsider what YOU want IF you got a divorce. Ask about things like child support, custody, etc to the lawyer.
Then take steps to protect yourself, like document how much time you spend with the kids, etc..
Then figure out how you are going to try to save your marriage.
You can try and work on yourself, get a life, etc, be patient and try to "nice" your spouse into picking you over the OM. Don't ask about the OM, etc. Be happy, detach, live in limbo for a while. Good luck with that.
Or you can try the last resort technique and see if it works.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2119488Give it some time.
It sounds you may be past this already.
If it doesn't you tey the AFTER the last resort technique (going dark) for a short while.
And if that doesn't work, give her an ultimatum. If she doesn't dump the other guy, apologize profoundly, write a no contact letter to the OM and go into counseling with you, it's time to walk.
You walk by 1. Either Filing for Divorce OR 2. Getting a Mediator or 3. Getting two lawyers who practice collaborative divorce.
Sometimes filing for divorce is the only message people really listen to and THAT might turn her around.
And...PLEASE, PLEASE read today's post on Chumplady.com It's painful, but it's where you may end up being soon.
--Theoden
All, thanks for trying to whack some sense into me. My emotions have me all over the map. From rereading these posts as well as other threads I realize that I am still making this about her and not about me. I realize she will never love a man she doesn't respect.
So I will get a lawyer. I will figure out what I want my life to look like without her and what I want my future to be like with my kids. I will start planning for D, even though it is not what I want. I will build a new network and GAL, not for her but for me. I will not threaten or give ultimatums, I will simply act. I have already told her "I will not wait forever" and I will not put a limit time limit on that (externally to her) but I will impose a short one (2 months max) on myself so that I don't become a doormat who supports here cake eating. I will figure out how to be somehow upbeat and a strong person while clearly not condoning or supporting her #%^*. I will lay down strong boundaries and will act if they are violated. I will take a few days and THINK about what I want rather than throwing all the crap up on this board as I've been doing for the last week.
Theoden, thanks four your comments- sometimes I need to hear the same thing in a different voice to help me get it, and your participation is really helping.
Zew, thanks for the pointer to your sitch- I had been reading your active thread, but am now going back and reading your older posts and they are extremely helpful, especially the comments on tough love, attraction, and the true purpose of the rules.
Starsky, thanks for your patience with me- I am learning and your commitment to teaching others is very much appreciated. I don't know how you do it and put up with us nobodies, but I'm very glad and thankful that you do. One question- you laid down clear boundaries of no txting OM in the home or using marital assets to support the A. What would you have done if they were violated? File? Go dark?I understand that boundaries are useless until you are prepared to act, I just have to figure out my own internal "or else."
I also am struggling with how to police similar boundaries without snooping- for example W's phone remains locked and with joint finances, she can easily hide in cash or ambiguous charges a good amount of spend if she wishes to, so I couldn't police your type of boundaries (just an example here- I know I have to figure out my own boundries but it's hard for me to understand how to do that with a lying WAW).
I want to make sure my boundaries are clear, represent my true deal breakers, and that I can unambiguously know when they have been violated. I am still struggling with that, but I continue to read here and will take time to calm down and think.
A huge THANK YOU to you all.
All, thanks for trying to whack some sense into me. My emotions have me all over the map. From rereading these posts as well as other threads I realize that I am still making this about her and not about me. I realize she will never love a man she doesn't respect.
So I will get a lawyer. I will figure out what I want my life to look like without her and what I want my future to be like with my kids. I will start planning for D, even though it is not what I want. I will build a new network and GAL, not for her but for me. I will not threaten or give ultimatums, I will simply act. I have already told her "I will not wait forever" and I will not put a limit time limit on that (externally to her) but I will impose a short one (2 months max) on myself so that I don't become a doormat who supports here cake eating. I will figure out how to be somehow upbeat and a strong person while clearly not condoning or supporting her #%^*. I will lay down strong boundaries and will act if they are violated. I will take a few days and THINK about what I want rather than throwing all the crap up on this board as I've been doing for the last week.
Theoden, thanks four your comments- sometimes I need to hear the same thing in a different voice to help me get it, and your participation is really helping.
Zew, thanks for the pointer to your sitch- I had been reading your active thread, but am now going back and reading your older posts and they are extremely helpful, especially the comments on tough love, attraction, and the true purpose of the rules.
Starsky, . . . One question- you laid down clear boundaries of no txting OM in the home or using marital assets to support the A. What would you have done if they were violated? File? Go dark?I understand that boundaries are useless until you are prepared to act, I just have to figure out my own internal "or else."
Yep -- definitely. Otherwise, they're not really "boundaries" but are really just "geeIwishyouwouldn't's."
Ultimately, I filed for divorce, but that was more because of her continuing to refuse to end her affair, and lying about it to even her own parents and our adult daughters (as well as to me). That (filing) would not have been the "or else" that I would have attached to the "no texting OM in front of our kids," or "no calling OM from inside our marital home" or "no squandering family's funds on your affair." My consequence for the finances was to set up my paycheck as a direct deposit into a new account that only I had access to, from which I transferred a reasonable amount each payday to our joint account that we both could use on shared family expenses. I cut off her cellphone (she went and got her own), and I stopped paying for her lingerie, her hair coloring, her tummy tuck (Visa payments) or anything else she was using to make herself appear younger for her younger OM or to in any way conduct her affair.
The consequence for her coming home after 1am one morning (after I'd warned her about this boundary) was to have all the lights off in the house and the yard, and the home security system armed.
The consequence for the "no texting/calling OM from our home"? had she violated it? Not sure, but funny thing how those cellphones don't really work very well without the SIM cards.
It all comes down to being taken seriously, and learning how to lay out and enforce boundaries. If you were never good at it (like I wasn't), it will take awhile before she will take you seriously.
I'll see if that old thread by Coach is still around here about "Boundaries" -- it was exceptional.
Starsky
I also am struggling with how to police similar boundaries without snooping- for example W's phone remains locked and with joint finances, she can easily hide in cash or ambiguous charges a good amount of spend if she wishes to, so I couldn't police your type of boundaries (just an example here- I know I have to figure out my own boundries but it's hard for me to understand how to do that with a lying WAW).
I'm a big "trust -- but verify" guy, so you do need to be able to verify. If snooping is killing your ability to detach, or just simply making you crazy, there are some things you can do. You can only look at your intel at some predetermined interval for you . . .say, once per month, or once every-other week. Or, you can enlist the help of a trusted friend or family member who is discreet and you can have THEM monitor your intel, and only inform you of any immediate threats to your family, your finances or your health, and instead just prepare a monthly "executive summary"-type document for you.
There are ways. Snooping is frowned upon because it will make you nuts, and it gets in the way of detaching. But you DO need to have ways to protect yourself and your family.
Starsky
Here's Coach's (RIP, old friend) thread on boundaries. Like most of his stuff, it's excellent.
Coach, on "Boundaries"
Thanks again starsky- I'll do some thinking on boundaries and read that thread tonight.
So the latest:
Decided I would take some time and GAL, interview some lawyers, and figure out what I wanted the rest of my life with my kids to look like, as those were the only things I could control. Didn’t get that far as I also decided to lay down a boundary that our household money would not be used to support her A. So I asked that she set up her own bank account and arrange for direct deposit and we could work on an allocation of family/household expenses to be paid by each of us. W doesn’t want separate accounts because “it doesn’t bring us closer together” (cake eater!) and naturally, because “there is no A- it’s over.”
Conversation was civil, I was short and simply restated my position that I was not interested in rehashing old arguments and that I am unwilling to live in an open marriage. Said I didn’t want to take unilateral action and initiate a divorce, but will have no choice if we can’t agree to work together. Conversation ended in an “agreement” to see a mediator to work on a formal separation. That was yesterday.
W calls today to tell me how mediation is a waste of time and money because neither one of us wants the marriage to end and there is no A for her to end. Didn’t bite and told her we either agree to do this together or we fight about it and give our money to lawyers. Now she’s delaying by claiming she can’t make the date I set up with a mediator work with her schedule. I’ll keep asking W daily for dates with the mediator and use this week to sit down with a few attorneys. Will also try to go dark, but the kids and one house are complicating factors.
Knowing her personality, even in the unlikely even she actually ends the A, she’s unlikely to ever admit it continued in the first place, making it unlikely we will avoid separation/divorce because there will never be that honest discussion from which to move forward. But without truth, some remorse, and a solid base of transparency (coupled with no contact, unlocked phone, etc.) I don’t think I will ever be able to move on- but that’s her choice. It will be a shame, because I truly believe in her heart she is conflicted and doesn’t know whether to go with me or OM/divorce, but I also don’t have confidence she will agree to open herself up to me to the extent required to save the M because she is such a private person and doesn’t really trust anybody but herself ion the end of the day.
In the meantime, I’m thinking about me, my kids, and GAL (but that’s hard to do).
" But without truth, some remorse, and a solid base of transparency (coupled with no contact, unlocked phone, etc.) I don’t think I will ever be able to move on- but that’s her choice. "
No. That's YOUR choice.
" But without truth, some remorse, and a solid base of transparency (coupled with no contact, unlocked phone, etc.) I don’t think I will ever be able to move on- but that’s her choice. "
No. That's YOUR choice.
True, but I think it's also a perfectly healthy (and reasonable) boundary. But yeah, he should own the boundary and then she needs to own her choice. Neither controls the other.
Here is MY opinion.... (based on my own observations and experience)
More than likely she isn't sure what she wants to do because the OM hasn't left his GF. Deep down she isn't really sure he will leave her even though that is what he probably has promised. This is typical of men in affairs. They usually don't leave their wife (or GF) unless the OW has such power over him that she tells him he can't have HER as long as he is still married. The OM will then tell his wife he wants to separate (this buys him time with both women) so that he can see where it goes with the OW. Meanwhile he is usually cake eating with his wife and also stringing her AND the OW along as long as they will play along (and MANY DO)... (Sound familiar?)
I would think that if he left his GF, then she would be pushing to separate with you instead of saying she doesn't want to.
By the OM not leaving the GF, this is GOOD for your cause.
I highly doubt that when push comes to shove that he will leave the GF. I would guess that your wife secretly knows deep down inside that this is true.
So, that being the case.. Your plan to separate is actually going to work against you the way you are going about it. It would give your wife a chance to see where things are going with the OM while she STILL keeps stringing you along hoping she comes to her senses. She will keep telling you she doesn't know what she wants as long as he is in the picture.
She will throw you just enough crumbs and time and effort to keep you right where she wants you.... We then will see you keep stating new or renewed boundaries again and again and again because you won't or can't face the TRUE BOUNDARY that she needs to hear to turn her thoughts from the OM back to you.....
For a perfect example, please go read Tarheel's thread in detail...
Here is how I am reading you....
"Wife, I love you and want to make this work, but I am hoping if I tell you that I won't share, that this will wake you up or scare you into coming back to me. I "am demanding"
that you have NC, and also blah, blah, blah along with complete transparency. (the whole key here is making the mistake of letting her keep thinking that you still love her and will let her come back IF.. this or IF that... All the while she keeps right on doing what she secretly wants to do while learning how to get around your so called boundaries.)
I don't see this as usually working as a plan when it comes across as a demand. I realize that YOU think it is coming across as a "boundary"... I don't see it that way and I doubt your wife does either. It still comes across as controlling. Why? Because it is controlling.
You want my opinion on a boundary?
Since you won't stop seeing the OM and keep lying to me about it, then I AM DIVORCING YOU.... and then file and do it..confident,strong, firm, decisive (things women on here keep telling us they can't resist in a man.. right?).....Or is that too strong for her or too hard to understand? or does that scare YOU into thinking she will take you up on it? Isn't that really the boundary when you get down to it?
So, the question is.. How do you do the boundary thing without coming across as controlling to HER?
I think a person needs to add a few different words to your boundary. Just a few words phrased differently make all the difference in how it is perceived by the WS. Perception is reality...
For example.. You told us this...
W doesn’t want separate accounts because “it doesn’t bring us closer together” (cake eater!) and naturally, because “there is no A- it’s over.”
Conversation was civil, I was short and simply restated my position that I was not interested in rehashing old arguments and that I am unwilling to live in an open marriage. Said I didn’t want to take unilateral action and initiate a divorce, but will have no choice if we can’t agree to work together. Conversation ended in an “agreement” to see a mediator to work on a formal separation. That was yesterday.
Now... IF you had changed it to something like this....
(I made the changes in red that I would suggest have more of an impact on her to show her you mean business and to get her to start thinking the correct thoughts.... which SHOULD be
"have I gone too far and have I lost him for good?"
(Convince her that you mean that is when you will find her coming back on YOUR terms without you having to demand a thing...)
Here is my suggestion..
W doesn’t want separate accounts because “it doesn’t bring us closer together” (cake eater!) and naturally, because “there is no A- it’s over.”
Conversation was civil, I was short and simply restated my position that I was not interested in rehashing old arguments and that I am unwilling to live in an open marriage and that now my feelings have changed and I am not sure how I feel about her anymore. Said I didn’t want to take unilateral action and initiate a divorce, but I have been doing some thinking and I have decided that we can't work together and that this really isn't what I want in a relationship, let alone a marriage. It suddenly hit me that I don't want to be with someone who I don't trust, who lies to me and doesn't act like they really want to be with me and me alone and I realized that I am not sure what I want now or how I feel about you either. So, I have decided that it is best that we separate. I need some time. I have contacted my lawyer and I will let you know what my plans are after I have discussed this with him.
Since you won't stop seeing the OM and keep lying to me about it, then I AM DIVORCING YOU.... and then file and do it..confident, strong, firm, decisive (things women on here keep telling us they can't resist in a man.. right?)..... Isn't that really the boundary when you get down to it?
Thanks, Justin- strong words to be sure but I do see the lure. The flip side as I see it is the whole DB mantra of giving a WAW time to come out of the fog, one month per year of marriage for changes to be “believed” and that many men rush into divorce too soon. I see your post as more “Love Must Be Tough” than “Divorce Remedy”- and yours may be the correct course, just noting the differences. The other component is trying to lay down boundaries that are short of "I want a Divorce."
In my case (forgive the mindreading) I agree with you that deep down W knows the 30 year old party boy OM isn’t her long term answer, but she isn’t thinking long term and is addicted to him and the excitement of the A. She’s been asking OM to leave GF for months and (surprise!) it hasn’t happened yet.
W called again today (before I read your post) again wanting to delay so she can find some way to prove to me the A is over- I steered the conversation away from “stop lying, end the A and work with me on the M” to a statement that any relationship must be based on respect and trust and that continuing to disrespect me and our M and perpetuating lies isn’t a foundation I can build a relationship on. I see this more as a boundary than a demand, and for the record I have never demanded transparency, remorse, etc.- I would only address those things if and when I believed she has made a firm commitment to leave OM and try to save the M but never before- otherwise I agree they are hollow demands.
Divorce is going to be complicated given intermingled finances, kids, crazy kids schedules, etc., so I’m already thinking that my ask for mediation is going to be a separation plan where the purpose isn’t to give us time to think but is instead to provide the basis for an amicable divorce. I know W will not go for that, which will likely lead to a stalemate for a few weeks while I get details squared away with a lawyer, but I’m doing all I can to keep this civil and avoid a damaging legal battle.
Starsky
I've finally found some insight into how you handled your situation. I'm not as a "no nonsense" type of guy as you are, so boundaries have come difficult for me to setup. Given my personality, I think I'm moving in the "let her free" move, but still need to detach physically. Anyway, great post. And Bart42 based on your title and your posts I read a few weeks ago, the LRT isnt too soon. I'm a few months into my sitch, and LRT about month and half ago and NOTHING happened, except the 2nd day she decided to be all chit chatty via email while we were at work.
Thanks, Arcola. It's taken me a long time to calm down and not be so emotional, and am slowly detaching, but I am still thinking too much about her. Even my attorney during our initial consultation noted that I seem to be mentioning W more than my wants and needs. Its getting easier though. Still hard, but easier. Anyway, we meet with a divorce mediator today, so we'll see how that goes- its just an initial consult, so I'm not expecting too much but I'm doubtful W is going to agree to give up her cake eating and do this without lawyers.
I still haven't decided if I want a S or just do the D:
Separate: I'd still like to think there is a small chance to save the M, although at this point with all the deceit I'm not sure I could ever trust her again. I'd have to move out immediately, and I think I still need some time to detach and build my going forward life. Higher cost as legally speaking it is almost two divorce processes.
Divorce: Will take 6-12 months and will allow me to stay with my kids in the home for as long as I want to. However, lots of costs that will be wasted in the slim chance this turns around. But, we've got a good amount of assets and the sooner I file the better the legal protections for me.
Its been pretty dark around here this week, and I am travelling for work all next week. I guess W and I are just going to have to talk about this, because paying a mediator or a lawyer to negotiate for us is just throwing money out the window. I just need to figure out what I want first.
Meanwhile, the GAL continues- last night at dinner (in front of kids where W and I are pleasant and pretend its a happy home) W asked both about me reconnecting with an old friend I am seeing this weekend and brought up a class I signed up for- so maybe she's noticing I'm making plans on my future, but I doubt the A has ended, so in the end of the day it doesn't matter- gotta just focus on me.
So in the session with the divorce Mediator he says "we can be ready to file in 3-5 weeks" and W became a deer in the headlights. She is not ready to put the date on the calendar for the next session and "needs a few weeks to find and meet with her own attorney.” Now its my job to keep the schedule moving without seeming like a jerk- told her the date can be a few weeks out but we need to get it scheduled. We'll see how that goes.
Then the unexpected happens- W says (on saturday) "I might go out tonight." (all her previous hookups are under the guise of a day of errands or late work nights). I say "so long as we are pretending to be a family for our kids I am not comfortable with you acting like you are single. If that's the way its going to be we should fast track the D and establish some ground rules about who goes out when.” So that was half boundary, half controlling. Best I could do when caught off guard.
But then W says “I guess Im jealous- you are handling this so much better than I am and are out doing things- I need to do more of that too.”
So my GAL is getting noticed, but instead of pulling her closer, its making her want to GAL herself.
She said again she’s not ready for S/D and I could see the hurt in her eyes. But its also clear she’s not ready to be truthful or give up OM. So that made be backslide a bit and say “When I’m divorced I want to be able to say that I tried everything in my power to save my M, but I’ve tried everything I can think of and I’m out of ideas, so this is the only option.” Then I walked out. This inferred I’d be willing to slow down/talk if she had any ideas (which was bad) but I wanted to show some compassion and tough love because being an a*hole was definitely one of my previous shortcomings.
Its all so hard when I just want to backslide and say “lets work on R”- which I know would be the wrong move. Push too hard and she goes off the reservation, hates me and becomes a full WAW. Ease off too much and she loses all respect and cake eats. So hard to know where the line is and what my next step should be.
Day by Day.
So in the session with the divorce Mediator he says "we can be ready to file in 3-5 weeks" and W became a deer in the headlights. She is not ready to put the date on the calendar for the next session and "needs a few weeks to find and meet with her own attorney.” Now its my job to keep the schedule moving without seeming like a jerk- told her the date can be a few weeks out but we need to get it scheduled. We'll see how that goes.
Yep, those reality bites a WAW experiences are a b'tch.
But then W says “I guess Im jealous- you are handling this so much better than I am and are out doing things- I need to do more of that too.”
So my GAL is getting noticed, but instead of pulling her closer, its making her want to GAL herself.
That may be your interpretation but I think you are mistaken.
She said again she’s not ready for S/D and I could see the hurt in her eyes.
Believe it or not, that is actually a positive step. All of these are necessary steps in the right direction.
But its also clear she’s not ready to be truthful or give up OM
Stick to your guns and as she tastes more of what she "thought" she wanted, the more chance she will be willing to do what is necessary to save the M. But it doesn't come all at once (usually) and she is not quite there yet.
So that made be backslide a bit and say “When I’m divorced I want to be able to say that I tried everything in my power to save my M, but I’ve tried everything I can think of and I’m out of ideas, so this is the only option.” Then I walked out
Perfect!
This inferred I’d be willing to slow down/talk if she had any ideas (which was bad) but I wanted to show some compassion and tough love because being an a*hole was definitely one of my previous shortcomings.
Well unless you said it to sound like.....or unless you had the look on your face like an a'hole, why do you think that action appeared as one? It sounds like a good topping to her deer in headlights scene.
There is a time for compassion and a time for toughness. I think you played it right. You have to be careful about how much compassion to show a wayward wife b/c she will not only take full advantage, but see it as softness in some cases. A wayward needs to see strength and firmness at times like this. She is too messed up to distinguish between tenderness/compassion/grace from weakness and believing she's bought more time.
Thanks Sandi- really appreciate your perspective here.
That may be your interpretation but I think you are mistaken.
So I should be more positive that the GAL is being noticed? Would appreciate your thoughts on other interpretations of her statement. I really wasn't sure how to take it because it wasn't "I want to join you" or "I like that too" but more "I want to do my own thing too" (forget that my activities center around building my character or doing new things with our kids, and hers involved a bar, but I digress....)
Well unless you said it to sound like.....or unless you had the look on your face like an a'hole, why do you think that action appeared as one? It sounds like a good topping to her deer in headlights scene.
I'm generally most worried about being too soft (my fist posts show what a softie I can be!), so when taking a stand I'm constantly worried I will over do it- one of my historic problems was arguing about virtually everything and creating a stressful home environment- so I am trying hard to be respectful and calm, but tough, in my dealings with W. I personally feel I struck the right balance and had a very even delivery- no doubt with a touch of emotion but I think that came through as compassion, not anger, so I think it was good.
Later tonight more crap from W about me allegedly txting OM's GF (I didn't and haven't since discovering A continued) so its clearly not paradise on the other side of the fence, but I refused to even talk about that one with her. Just told her the continued lies will hurt my ability to deal with her effectively when co-parenting our children.
Taking S for a great father/son day tomorrow so I'm just gonna focus on that- will remind W we need to set for mediatror when I get home.
Sandi, I think you nailed it. I agree, I think he played it perfectly.
Good job, Bart!
So I should be more positive that the GAL is being noticed? Would appreciate your thoughts on other interpretations of her statement. I really wasn't sure how to take it because it wasn't "I want to join you" or "I like that too" but more "I want to do my own thing too" (forget that my activities center around building my character or doing new things with our kids, and hers involved a bar, but I digress....)
It is difficult for me to explain some of these things in few words. Over the years of observation, I have learned that most male newcomers don't come close to what his WAW thinks or feels about any given subject. I mean, the WAS is incredibly self centered. She is ruled by her emotions and desires. She will break all rules to be in contact with her AP. She will even neglect her children.
When the LBH tries to deal with her as if she is the same woman he M, it usually doesn't get him very far. In most cases, I believe, he has to go into a different mode of opperation from what most people think of as saving the M.
When he stops being available all the time and stops pursuing, it kinds of throws her......(length of time varies from stitch to stitch). When she sees LBH getting out and enjoying life without her...instead of mourning her, she may act jealous, angry, depressed, or whatever. If she really doesn't care what he does, where he goes, or who he is with....then she is truly completely detached. But most of them can't help but to be curious about where, when, and with whom he GAL. The more mysterious the details are about his GAL, the more it pipes her interest. It can be a very effective distraction.
What she said sounded childish. She is not sure how to deal with this new side of you. It wasn't what she expected. A WAS doesn't seem to consider they are freeing up the LBS. They have put all their focus on their own freedom, so it is a new and confusing issue for her, really.
Make sure you keep your calendar full. You can plan activities for you and the kids, but you also need to take a lot of time for hourself away. If she says she is going to be gone, tell her that doesn't work for you b/c you have already schedule plans that can't be broken. When she asks what they are, you just look at her as of to say "really?".
Don't try to control her GAL. And......do some things that are just fun or relaxing. It doesn't have to be a character exercise or keeping the kids busy.
Later tonight more crap from W about me allegedly txting OM's GF (I didn't and haven't since discovering A continued) so its clearly not paradise on the other side of the fence, but I refused to even talk about that one with her. Just told her the continued lies will hurt my ability to deal with her effectively when co-parenting our children.
I know it must be very, very upsetting for you. I am sure it would be for me, too. She will lie to get more people to think she is justified in leaving you. Why? I think maybe b/c a WAW needs to feel she has someone in her corner, so she tries to recruit her own cheering squad...and the only way it will work is by turning them against you and that require lies. The more you try to confront or counteract what she says, the more it pulls you into her circle of drama/lies. People who really know you will think whatever they want to think, and the other people ......well, it doesn't matter what they think of you, does it? All in good time, the truth has a way of coming out. A strong man will go on about his life and let her pull whoever into her sh't bath, but you refuse to get in it.
I find it interesting she said she is not ready for a S/D. But at the same time she doesn't want to give up OM. She can't have both, unless you are willing to live in an open M. IMO, if she sees you walking forward without lingering around to see if she has second thoughts, she will realize she needs to make a choice and do something about it before you divorce
her!
Now bear with me while I explain. You don't verbalize any of what you plan to do or not do. You give no promises or reassurances. You let your attitude and actions be your voice. She should be concerned over your decision. This is what I try to across to LBH'S. Instead of living in fear of what she may do, it should be turned around and she should be worried about what you will do. She is the cheater here!
I know you don't want a divorce! I am not telling you to get one, okay? I am saying to not discuss what you want with her. If she asks questions you don't know how to answer, find some words that mostly say you both have a lot to think about. Make sense?
How will she consider what she stands to lose, unless she begins getting little glimpses now?
Sandi, thanks so much for taking the time to give me a woman's perspective on this- your comments really help me understand what I am facing so much better than I ever could comprehend by myself. I don't obstruct her actions, GAL or otherwise- to the contrary I largely give the impression that I don't care where she goes or what she does- the ironic thing is she keeps feeding me BS lines about what she is doing (and how it isn't OM), even though I don't react to them.
Now bear with me while I explain. You don't verbalize any of what you plan to do or not do. You give no promises or reassurances. You let your attitude and actions be your voice. She should be concerned over your decision. This is what I try to across to LBH'S.
I know you don't want a divorce! I am not telling you to get one, okay? I am saying to not discuss what you want with her.
Can you help me understand how to not verbalize and just "do" when WAW wants to cake eat and I need to be the one pushing for appointments with the mediator, etc? Even though I definitely don't want the D (but I am resigned to an S being necessary at this point) if I don't discuss what I want or push then she will delay and cake eat for as long as I let her. Or do you mean I should just end any sort of talks about what I want out of the process and limit talks to keeping the mediation process moving?
Basically, I'm trying to understand how saying "I don't want a D but I see no other options" was a good thing to say but now I shouldn't talk about what I want at all? I thought I needed to act like I want the S/D because she is not willing to come to the table and drop the OM and I am not willing to continue the open marriage. (Which isn't BS by the way- if its a D so be it- I'm not continuing to live this way).
I feel like I am at a critical point and I don't want to mess up whatever (slim) chance I may have here.
Can you help me understand how to not verbalize and just "do" when WAW wants to cake eat and I need to be the one pushing for appointments with the mediator, etc? Even though I definitely don't want the D (but I am resigned to an S being necessary at this point) if I don't discuss what I want or push then she will delay and cake eat for as long as I let her. Or do you mean I should just end any sort of talks about what I want out of the process and limit talks to keeping the mediation process moving?
I believe you should end any more talks about what you
want. Btw, you do not have to act as if you "want" a D, but just don't talk about your wishes anymore. She already knows what you want, right? It is b/c she knows what you want that causes her to feel secure in not leaving and the cake eating.
Unless you compromise and accept an open M, you don't have an option. If you do nothing, she will think you have accepted the terms of her staying with you.
To be clear, what needs to be discussed with her that has not already been covered? Just a date to meet with the mediator again? If it were me, I would find a good time to ask her if any date with the mediator is good with her. Just as if it were making an appointment with a dentist. Put on a poker face when you say it.
Other discussions about what you want in general or your plans for your life......or just GAL is off limits to her. At this point, you need to act as if you are already separated. I am not suggesting you run out and get a woman or anything like that! But in attitude and partnership you end any type of intimacy within the home with her. This is the path she chose with her actions. You do not need to be hateful or anything of that nature. Just withdraw and detach from your role as her H. Don't try to be her buddy or BFF. She doesn't want to commit to only you, so let her see how that life looks.
Are the two of you still sleeping together?
This may sound strange, since it is a marriage saving forum. However, in order to save the M, you have to save your dignity and she will have to respect you. If you lay these hard lines and then fail to deliver.....I think you may lose any chance of her respecting you. This is just my opinion.
Crazy Update to my Sitch:
(Sandi- thanks and I will answer your questions later if they still matter af today's developments.......)
This morning I got a panicked call from the OM (we've only spoken once or twice) pleading for me to help him because "W is over my house and is freaking out and breaking stuff." I said "call the police." He said he can't so then I calmly said "you need to deal with it- it’s your situation and she's not my problem anymore" and hung up. Managed not to call the W or txt her either- radio silence from me.
W leaves me a message at work an hour or so later with her voice cracking to say that "clearly there was a bit of a situation" and we can talk later. She was obviously very shaken. W got me on my cell phone shortly thereafter before I played her message- she was much calmer and said say she was staying home from work today (no mention of "a situation" or talking this time) and I simply said "OK see you at home."
Old me would be madly calling/txting and running home to confront the issue, so one thumbs up for me today.
Should be a very interesting night, especially with the kids around. I see three options 1) She acts like nothing happened and I don’t bring it up 2) she is going to finally admit to some aspect of the A continuing or instead 3) is going to spin some crazy tale about how she was just at OM's apartment to help him with something and GF came home, got the wrong idea and started a fight or something. Either way, I think my attitude is going to be put on your BGP- show little emotion, be empathetic/compassionate but don't say more than "Sounds like a difficult situation for you, but I’m sure you’ll figure out how deal with it.” I will not get pulled into helping her deal with this situation nor will I talk about its impact on our R- I will act “whatever.” I will play it as detached and confident that her situation doesn’t really impact my future. If she starts talking R that will be the wildcard, but I think deflecting will be my best option.
I’m gone the remainder of the week on business, so should be interesting – she will either bring it to a head tonight or goes under the carpet with the rest of the dirty laundry.
I fell like this is going to turn into a running commentary, but here goes:
W called again. "Just want to let you know I went to OM's house today and told him things are 100% over- told him not to text me or talk to me or contact me ever again." (At the risk of a 2x4 for mindreading, my bet is the fight was because OM is not leaving his GF and W freaked)- I've never seen her throw anything in 21 years so she must have been mightily upset).
I say OK, thanks for the update. Silence. I add "I'm sure things are hard for you but you'll figure it out." W thanks me for giving her time and space to deal with her issues. I say "hang in there" and we end the conversation.
So I guess back to limbo- no real admission of continuing A and no R talk at all. Not that I expected her to beg and plead for me to take her back, but I'd hoped this would lead her to at least mention our R. Probably too soon- time will tell if she decides she wants back in the M or instead just wants out of both the M and the A.
Guess I continue to play detached and compassionate, set up mediation sessions and wait for her to raise any R talk? I know from reading here that there is no point in restating my grounds for working on R, so I assume sitting back and continuing on the same course without offering any olive branches or additional signs of affection is still the right course?
Correct.
(and more later)
I also agree with your assessment with what probably happened over there.
Starsky
It sounds to me like things are moving in the right direction. You also seem to be handling it very well.
Thanks Starsky and wmwb- I know enough from reading these boards to not get my hopes up- she apparently didn't end the A by choice, and there's just as much chance she will go 1) reconcile with OM1, 2) find OM2 or 3) work on the M.
I know I really need to be careful here- appreciate any and all guidance.
Well, W is now in bed reading after a "normal" evening of dinner, homework, etc. No mention of any "situation" by her and I sure as heck didn't even so much give her a look that suggested anything was different or that I wanted/was expecting to talk.
So, back to the ruse, it seems- I doubt W would have said anything if OM hadn't called me. With me gone on business all week, its unlikely to come up by phone, either.
Tomorrow I'll txt her about arrangements for the D mediator and we'll go from there.
I, for one, applaud you. So many men in your shoes hear what your W told you and assume she means she's back in the M. But that is not necessarily so......and I believe you are staying pretty calm about it, so far.
To be blunt, she was basically telling you that her first option (or plan A) fell through and now she will have to go to plan B. Does that mean "you" are plan B or a divorce is plan B........or find another man.
I guess I am cold hearted, but I would have found it hard to show any empathy toward her and probably would not have validated, but you handled it well. When she tells you this type of information (or update in her drama) and leave it with open ends.......a out all I would know to say is, "I see". Continue using your poker face and voice. I mean, what was she expecting from you, when she called?
I loved the way you talked to OM! It was perfect! (Have you been mentored by Starsky, b/c it sure sounded like something he would have said.).
I don't have to tell you that this is a very critical time. The way you deal within the next several days could turn things one way or the other. I don't think I would ask her any questions about what she plans to do now. Certainly no talk about her & OM (until something is mentioned about reconciliation). I think you are correct in acting as if nothing has changed for you, and proceed about checking with her about an appointment with mediator.
Her fantasy castle was shattered yesterday for plans with OM. Doesn't mean it's over for them, but she's angry at him. While she is good and mad at him for not leaving his GF, I think is a perfect time for her to see you will not settle for left-overs. How far you want to go with it is up to you. But my point is that any chance of becoming a serial cheater or rekindling her A with this OM needs to come to a screeching halt, and the best time for that to happen is now. She will be watching to see what you are going to do.
If the A ends, She will still have to go through the withdrawal, etc., but one day at a time, right now.
I hope Starsky will come back and shed some light on this, b/c I think he had to go as far as to file for D in his stitch-- before the M was saved. I do not have personal experience with mediators, divorce lawyers, etc. I have read from others that they have gone right up to the court date and then the WAW would back down, however, there are never any guarantees and it can't be used as a bluff (in case it sounds as if I am suggesting you call her bluff). I just believe this time frame you are in at this time is critical.......whatever you decide to do.
Thanks, Sandi- you nailed it- Starsky is the one who changed me from the desperate clinging H who walked in here a month ago to the new improved version here today.
To answer your previous question, no ML since A was discovered as EA in the end of May- we did some handholding and innocent smooching while doing MC through the summer, but once I discovered at the start of Sept. that the A never ended there has been no affection at all- I completely withdrew on that front. W is just fine with the no ML part (historic issues there we will have to work through if we ever R) but the lack of any affection has bothered her- as all her comments about "not moving closer together" (um, hello!) evidenced.
I don't have to tell you that this is a very critical time. The way you deal within the next several days could turn things one way or the other....I think you are correct in acting as if nothing has changed for you
Don't try to be her buddy or BFF.
OK, critical times and I need to make sure I get this right- I'm concerned that if I maintain 100% lack of affection, set up D mediation and keep contact as dark as I can given kids, the message she will hear is that there is no chance for the M. She has no real close friends to turn to and I'm worried lack of caring/support from me will just drive her back to OM.
Remember being a hardass and not creating calm, supportive home environment were some of my historic shortcomings- also W is such a strong willed, prideful person I can almost see her letting the M go to the grave b/c she's too headstrong to be the one to reach out.
I realize my being strong forced the situation with the OM so I need to stay the course with what has worked so far, its just that the stakes are so so high. I realize all I would be doing would be restating my willingness to work on the M- which would be read as weak by her, but boy is this tough to just sit back and watch.
Txt from W this morning asking me about flight times started with "hi Hun" and bantered about nothing- critical time for our M yet I feel like we are still in the twilight zone.
I should also add that when W called yesterday to say "I told OM it was 100% over" she quickly backtracked and added "there was clearly still some talking going on"- so she isn't admitting the A continued in any way shape or form, but is still trying to keep up the facade of it just being a "close friendship." Not sure how much that matters but wanted to get that clarification out there.
Alright, I'm putting this one to a vote- W just txted me with some banter about my trip and ended it with "looking forward to a nice weekend together"
So is this fantasy land, or have I now been identified as plan B?
I responded with "thanks (to the trip part)- see you Friday" but now am second guessing an email about mediation dates- which might be seen as me shutting down any R talk.
So do I stay the course or instead hold off the mediation email and see if she more explicitly raises R? Personally this seems way to soon for R talk as she should still be hurting from OM still, but don't want to blow whatever chance Imay have here. My gut says gently raise mediation in a day or two- will think about this during my 8 hour flight.
STAY THE COURSE, Bart. It's working, and DB's main mantra is "Do What Works!"
The key is in your TONE, your DEMEANOR. Don't BE a "hardass" if that's what you were before. You want to go for a "gosh, this hurts me more than it hurts you, but I need to protect myself here . . . I wish this was going differently, I really do" sort of a feel (not those WORDS, but a FEEL). Does that make sense?
When my wife went into her "St. Sally" routine (not her real name) and tried to push her A underground, I used a lot of "Gee, I wish I could believe that right now, I really do"s with her. I wasn't a d*kk about it, but I made it clear that her lying had made me need to protect my heart, and our family, and that I just didn't believe her right now.
Starsky
OK, critical times and I need to make sure I get this right- I'm concerned that if I maintain 100% lack of affection, set up D mediation and keep contact as dark as I can given kids, the message she will hear is that there is no chance for the M. She has no real close friends to turn to and I'm worried lack of caring/support from me will just drive her back to OM.
This is no doubt the #1 thing that betrayed spouses -- especially betrayed HUSBANDS -- articulate here, in my experience. "Won't this just push her away more?"
Look, first of all . . . do you REALLY doubt your wife knows how you feel about her? That you still love her? Really? How many times have you articulated your position during your sitch? And if she ever DOES really, REALLY need to know, don't you think she will ask you?
You WANT to give her a feeling of "Oh crap -- I've gone too far! I'm losing Bart!!"), that's the whole idea!
Secondly, you have to come to grips with the understanding that driving your wayward spouse and their OP together is actually the 2nd best outcome you can have. Obviously, the 1st-best outcome is that she end her affair, and you two reconcile and work on your marriage together. But the WORST of the three possible outcomes is that she continue to string you along in what is essentially an open marriage, with you as her fallback "Plan B" in case things with her OM don't work out. Everything we've encouraged you to do here is to remove THAT as ANY option that in any way works for you, and continue to make changes in yourself that make her give Option 1 (end her affair, and come back to YOU) the best possible chance. But you cannot do that unless you're fully ready and willing to have Option #2 happen, at least in the short-term. Otherwise, you'll be paralyzed by fear (of losing her), she'll smell that a mile away, and she'll continue to string you along.
Trust me, #2 is NOT the worst option (#3 -- the dreaded LIMBO is!!!) Affairs often implode on their own once the mystery and intrigue have been removed, and both affair partners have to deal with each other on a daily, real-life basis.
Starsky
Starsky, you have the gift of truth on your side. God dwells in you for sure.
Affairs often implode on their own once the mystery and intrigue have been removed, and both affair partners have to deal with each other on a daily, real-life basis.
I certainly agree with this. Once the diamond studded fantasy becomes the cheap intimation reality and the Other People (Sorry I can't stand acronyms) start having to deal with your spouses crap, it will end soon enough.
Thanks, Starsky- I will stay the course. Sent a gentle “mediators are available these dates” email to W- she took a while to respond and came back with “Let's talk this weekend. I would like to think we will not need them.” So seems we are on the verge of R talk. Recall I’m travelling so this is all txt at this point and we won’t have a chance to talk before the weekend. I think I am going to respond with “I thought we agreed mediation was the preferred course- I’m not sure how delay and us talking more will help, but as the first date is a few weeks out we can discuss when I get back.”
Now I have to prepare for my response when she raises the R this weekend. Haven’t done much reading on the boards about setting/enforcing ground rules for discussing R but I need to understand how I best set boundaries/ground rules around NC and transparency while also not turning the “breakthrough” discussion into a demand/negotiation session.
I'm not a big fan of heavy convos while spouses are still in their affairs. This, from my personal archives:
Types of Convos
Exactly. Here's the thing: if someone is in an ongoing, unrepentant affair, there are only a few types of conversations/communications they can have with their betrayed spouse, and ALL of them are cheeseless tunnels for the BS:
1) NEGATIVE ones. Blame-making, re-writing marital history, angry outbursts, fight-picking, etc. 'nuff said.
2) Seemingly POSITIVE ones. So long as they are still in contact with OM/OW and lying to their spouse about it, these are all "bullchit spin" at best, and outright GASLIGHTING and LIES at worse. And the problem is, the betrayed spouse inevitably sees this as "baby steps!" and true marital progress, when they are no such thing. They can lead to horrible strategic and tactical mistakes, esp. if the BS doesn't have a good intel system in place. Reading my old journal yesterday, I was BLOWN AWAY at how stable I was able to be in the face of my wife's deceit, simply because I HAD INTEL TO SHOW ME OTHERWISE. This can't be overemphasized.
3) LEGAL/FINANCIAL ones. These are best handled by your attorney, for the obvious reasons. If you start negotiating yourself, when you are way, way, WAY too emotionally entrenched in the situation (and also often running on too-little sleep and WAY too-little emotional needs of your own being met), YOU WILL MAKE FOOLISH MISTAKES and UNWISE CONCESSIONS.
4) FAMILY/LOGISTICAL ones. These are fine, but best handled via e-mail or text message. A cheating spouse will use these as a ploy to lure you into R convos and worse; SEE #1 ABOVE.
5) SMALL-TALK. This is fine, but only in RESPONSE -- don't initiate it if your strategy is to go "dim" and if it's to go "dark" you shouldn't even respond. If it's "dim," then only respond to one of every several communications, and usually delayed, because you're BUSY and GETTING A LIFE, remember?
Boundaries are HARD. Read up, then read some more. Practice over and over. Say them out loud. Try to take all of the "controlling" out of your words.
Starsky, my read (admittedly with no intel as I am not in snoop mode presently) is that A ended (at least temporarily) Monday and W now wants to explore me as plan B/ restart our R talks. That seems pretty clear to me from her txt today. Are you saying I should treat her as still "in" the A and avoid the R talk as there is no positive outcome per your list?
If she's still not truthful about the A when we talk this weekend, there will be no discussion of R, as I will shut it down, but if she is truthful, I want to have a game plan.
Any thoughts on my planned response to her txt of today? Want to be sure I get the message and tone right.
I can only tell you what I would do. I'm not the average bird around here, as I will *NEVER* understand why we advise people to basically fly in the thick fog (the gaslighting and fog of their cheating spouse's infidelity), with no instruments (intel). But if I had no independent verification that an affair had ended, and if I had already been (and continued to be) lied to about said affair . . . then I would proceed under the assumption that:
a) it is either still going on; or
b) she wanted to be ABLE to re-ignite it at some point; or
c) she was either with an OM2 or was actively seeking one.
But that's just me. And I would never, ever discuss any legal details with someone with whom I had an active legal matter pending.
Starsky
You can always just LISTEN, and not give more than general "Hmmm; I'm not sure how I feel about that anymore," or "Hmmmmm, I'll have to give that some thought. I'll get back to you on that" or "I'm afraid it's not that simple anymore" type of statements.
starsky,
Do you reccomend that approach for non R talks also?
Generally, no, unless your talking legal or financial talks, in which case YES.
For everyday topics, a betrayed spouse should try to NOT be the one to initiate them, but once engaged they should be a great listener, make great eye contact, generally be a great and involved conversationalist. But then be the one to wrap up the conversation because they have somewhere to be/something to do.
Starsky
Ok, thanks.
With the legal and financial talks I let my W start them and I litterally make a list of her talking points. I request 24 hours to sleep on it and then re-engage after thoroughly thinking it through.
Don't you have an attorney?