I just returned from a 6-month deployment to the middle east, deploying only 5 months after moving my wife and I to a new town. We had made some friends here, but I think my departure left her feeling somewhat abandoned. During the early part of the deployment, it didn't seem to be going so bad, our schedules lined up so that the time difference allowed us to be awake at the same time, she sent a care package, and we still had intimate conversations via Skype or other messaging applications.
Soon after, I switched to my permanent work shift and got into a routine of working out, going to work, and other activities. Now our schedules were polar opposites, and we rarely talked for more than a few minutes before she went to bed or right before she had to go to work. I started seeing her posts on social media going downtown to bars and clubs with people I knew, but also with men whom I had never met. About this time is when she confessed that she was unhappy, had been unhappy in our marriage for a long time (her specific words were that she felt like she was, "just going through the motions."), and that this deployment came at the worst time for us and our marriage. She had said things like this before I had left, but I may have chosen not to take her seriously, or I had been so wrapped up in work-related issues that I had other things on my mind. She said that she wasn't sure if she could do this anymore, but would give us a chance when I returned.
The very first night I was home, we went over to the house of some of the men that my wife had been hanging out with. She was cold, rude to me, and there was just something about how she interacted with one of them that I couldn't shake a nagging suspicion that there was something going on. We took a trip out of town the next day, and at one point the tension between us got so bad we just had to talk about what was going on. She swore up and down that she was feeling the way she felt because she had never been independent and wanted to find out if she could make it on her own, and not because she wanted to be with someone else. The rest of the weekend went better after that talk, but I couldn't get those horrible thoughts out of my head.
The day after we got back, I had to check in at work before taking my time off post-deployment. While she was still asleep my jealousy got the best of me and I checked her text messages, specifically to who I guess I can call the OM. It didn't take me long to find two pictures she had sent of her in lingerie, and one of her topless. I didn't dig any deeper, and instead woke her up and confronted her. She swore that it was a one time occurrence, that she was drunk when she did it, and she only did it because she wasn't getting the attention she needed from me. She said that she and the OM had discussed it afterwards as being inappropriate and that it wouldn't happen again.
We've since had many conversations about the state of our relationship, but overall my perception is that of mixed signals. On one hand, she still tells me that she's unhappy, wants to move out and be on her own, and that she wants to be single/dating again. But on the other hand, I'm still getting flashes of affection, and she still wants me to hold her when we go to bed at night. We still exchange, "I love yous." I did go over the 180 approach offered here and just today our conversation involved me letting her know that I would be making positive changes for myself, and if I am the man she wants to be with then so be it, but if not, I need to be ok on my own.
Still, I'm trying to be patient, but would like expert opinions on my situation. Thanks.
Hi Rev, I'm brand new here too, so I'm sorry to say I can't offer much in the way of advice, but I can tell you there's lots of support here from many many people who have gone through the same thing. I would wholeheartedly suggest reading the DB/DR books in addition to this website and also reading through the old threads- so much wisdom and inspiration there that has helped me.
Remember DBing is about making changes that make you a better person and that (hopefully) will lead to your W seeing what a fantastic husband you really are, but be prepared for the changes to take time and have as much patience as you possibly can- I jumped the gun saying I wanted a separation before I really did and I'm regretting that now.
"Puppy's Short Version, All-Inclusive Advice" for Waylayed Spouses Who Just Got Bombed"1. Get proof (of whether or not there's OM/OW). Hint: There almost always is.
2. Do either:
2a. Aggressive affair-busting (see Allen A's posts over in Infidelity)
Allen A's Posts ; or
2b. "Set Them Free" (Robx/Gucci approach)
"Setting Them Free" Those are the only two things I've seen work. If #1 turns up nothing, then proceed to #2b. And in the meantime, GAL your ass off, and become the better option. Best case, you'll attract them back, and at a minimum you'll become a better person that will be more attractive to SOMEBODY in your next relationship.
Starsky
^^^^Ha- that's perfect Starsky!
"Puppy's Short Version, All-Inclusive Advice" for Waylayed Spouses Who Just Got Bombed"1. Get proof (of whether or not there's OM/OW). Hint: There almost always is.
2. Do either:
2a. Aggressive affair-busting (see Allen A's posts over in Infidelity)
Allen A's Posts ; or
2b. "Set Them Free" (Robx/Gucci approach)
"Setting Them Free" Those are the only two things I've seen work. If #1 turns up nothing, then proceed to #2b. And in the meantime, GAL your ass off, and become the better option. Best case, you'll attract them back, and at a minimum you'll become a better person that will be more attractive to SOMEBODY in your next relationship.
Starsky
I may need to review all the acronyms here, but does somebody only count as an OM/OW if the relationship is sexual? There is definitely an OM on an emotional level, and to be honest, she had another man (married) back at our previous station who she also became very close to emotionally. In this case I found that she had sent nude pictures to the OM here. She claims that there is nothing else going on, and that nothing else happened, and I haven't dug any deeper in her texts/messages to see if that's true.
The GAL-ing began a few days ago, and in fact our most recent conversation about our relationship (she initiated) had me letting her know that that's what I was doing. But at the same time, or as a result of trying to be more independent, she's becoming more affectionate, taking me out on day, "dates," (when I'm available), and things around here have just been more pleasant. I'd hate to get false hopes that things will work out, but it's nice to be noticed by her again.
An EA (emotional affair) is just as damaging as a PA (physical affair). In fact, for women, it's usually MORE significant if there's an emotional bond (as opposed to us guys who are more often satisfied with "just the sex.")
Either way, it's betrayal. And while you were off serving our country??? Grrrr!!!!
Yes this happened while I was away, but she's been having difficulty for the past few years. In the past two, I've only been home for a total of 9 months between deployments, training, and exercises. Most of that 9 months has been spent being miserable at my job and bringing that misery home with me. Still, I'm not using that as an excuse for infidelity on her part, just something for me to look at as a basis for self-improvement.
I've kind of implemented the, "Set Them Free," idea, telling her that if she wants to leave that I'm fully willing to help with the process of taking her name off of joint accounts/property, helping her find a job and transportation, and whatever else she would need to be independent. So far, she's still here.
Which is why I'm confused as to GAL. From reading the, "rules," of doing a 180 (this is where I first came across it:
http://beingabeautifulmess.wordpress.com/the-180/), it would seem like even though we both live in the same house and sleep in the same bed, am I supposed to act as if she's not even there? I have been trying to reconnect with old hobbies that I used to do, and taking initiative on my own to do things rather than waiting on her all the time, but from what she's told me, it was my emotional absence that fueled her desire to connect emotionally with others (her words were that she's felt single but not allowed to date). So I guess I'm trying to strike a balance of sorts, trying to ensure that I can be happy on my own, but trying to provide my wife with the emotional connection with her husband that she's needed for a long time.
Does that all make sense?
No, you don't help her -- find a place, etc. you say "you are free to go, but I do not want a divorce so I'm not going to help you run away from the marriage."
If this is what she wants, she needs to put on her BGPs.
Starsky
Fair enough... actually she has been looking for a place and a car but can't afford either on her own. Sometimes I think the only thing g keeping her here is my finances. Dunno what to do about that.
What is your current financial situation? Who earns what, who pays for what?
Well to answer your question I make just about everything save for about 800-1000 a month. We have a joint bank account that we both have debit cards for. We also have three cars two of which are in both our names, the third in just hers.
However there was a major development tonight...we went over to the OM house again tonight and I couldn't stand how the two of them were acting towards each other. I checked her phone again at home and this time found not only more topless pics that were certainly not sent to me, but also raunchy messages about how she missed his body/affection etc. Also said things about kissing each other and explicit references to sex.
I woke her up and confronted her. She still refused to admit having sex with the OM but I just assume it at this point. I gave her the ultimatum of breaking all contact or I would start removing her from all of our joint accounts. She revealed that she had been close to suicide while I was gone but never told me or got help. She turned to another man. Now given these choices she's threatening that again, as she sees no choice that is good for her. I don't think she sees me as someone she can live with anymore but knows she can't provide for herself either. This is the worst day of my life
Answer to her when she says that: "I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you'll get the help you need. It doesn't change my position one bit. It sounds like we both have some decisions to make." (And then end the conversation).
Are you paying for her cellphone service?
Well that would be a great place to start, don't you think?
"I have decided that I'm no longer willing to pay for the phone you use to conduct your affair and send porn to your boyfriend."
Then I would recommend putting together a detailed -- but separate -- financial plan, where you are both contributing to the family's needs proportionally to your incomes but where she does have some accountable skin in the game.
BGPs (Big Girl Panties).
Starsky
If you think she's suicidal or depressed, get her to a psychiatrist ASAP. You must have services available to you in the military for situations like this? Also make an appointment for marriage counseling. I'm not sure I believe a word she's saying at this point, but if she's sincerely confused, she should be willing to go.
You haven't mentioned kids, I'll assume you don't have any? In which case, you also have to ask yourself some hard questions about this relationship and whether it is worth saving. Every awful thing you are going through right now is ten times worse when children are involved. And she has already demonstrated that she is a repeat offender. Do you want to risk going through this again in a few years with children involved?
I suggest you also see an attorney to find out how to protect yourself financially. If there is significant money in the joint accounts you may want to move half to an account in just your name so she can't wipe out the accounts.
I applaud you for your willingness to look at your own contribution and for your level head in the face of this trauma. She may just be a weak person who can't be alone, she may be depressed, or she may be a lying manipulator who enjoyed living the single life while you supprted her. You know her best.
Does she have family she could go home to live with while getting back on her feet?
That would be great, I can't stop looking at the damn text activity on Verizon's site and wondering what picture/video was sent. It's awful. Problem is, our bank account is shared, so even if she got a separate phone plan, the money would still come out of that account. The first step may be for her to get her own bank account.
That would be great, I can't stop looking at the damn text activity on Verizon's site and wondering what picture/video was sent. It's awful. Problem is, our bank account is shared, so even if she got a separate phone plan, the money would still come out of that account. The first step may be for her to get her own bank account.
Better: You set up your own account that she can't access, and you have your paycheck DD'd into it each payday. Then you transfer some set amount of money into yours and hers joint account to pay for the shared marital expenses. She sets up her own account, and does the same. Each of your contributions into the joint marital account should be in proportion to your income (say, 90/10 or 80/20 or whatever).
Then tell your wife what you set up. Tell her you are no longer willing to pay any expenses for anything associated with her affair, and tell her she'll need to get her own cellphone by 48 hours as you'll be shutting that down as well. "I will not use our family's money to pay for you to send half-naked pictures of yourself to other men. If you want to do that, you can pay for that out of your own account, and your own income."
Remove her access to any joint credit cards or lines-of-credit as well, and only tell her AFTER you've done so (make this move in conjunction with the banking moves mentioned above).
Continue to provide for your wife's basic needs, but not her wants and certainly not her affair. While you can't control her decision to flee from your marriage, there's certainly nothing that says you need to finance her flight.
Tough stuff, but I had to do it too. You need to protect your family's finances, and people caught up in what your wife is have been known to do some pretty crazy things.
Starsky
Protect yourself financially, protect yourself financially, protect yourself financially!
If I wasn't clear, protect yourself financially.
Get your own primary account set up for your pay deposit. Then make contributions from that to your joint account, so that your joint account has no more in it than to cover reasonable monthly expenses. You can do all of this discreetly without any fanfare. No need to announce or threaten it, just do it.
Don't insist she have her own bank account - right now you have more visibility on the joint account, and if its funding is limited, the damage is limited.
Worry less about the Verizon text activity - she's going to do what she's going to do. Start collecting your e-statements on all your accounts/loans and setting them aside somewhere safe, then start figuring out what your plan is.
Protect yourself financially, protect yourself financially, protect yourself financially!
If I wasn't clear, protect yourself financially.
And when you do, be prepared for W to complain that you're 'punishing' her.
Protect yourself financially, protect yourself financially, protect yourself financially!
If I wasn't clear, protect yourself financially.
And when you do, be prepared for W to complain that you're 'punishing' her.
Of course. With a big dollop of "I *was* going to consider reconciling with you, but *now* you've blown any chance you had!" on top.
Background noise. Just put on the spew jacket and learn the fine art of "I can understand how you feel that way. I'm doing what I feel I need to do to protect myself."
Starsky
Tricare will only cover therapy for diagnosed psychiatric diagnoses, at least that's what I got from their site. If we were to go and get such a diagnosis then it would probably be covered. I'm having a hard time believing her as well, and I really don't see an end to the OM contact, since they work together. Right now I'm on R&R after deployment and am scared as hell to leave her alone when I go back to work in a week, both from an infidelity standpoint and the possibility of her hurting herself.
You are correct in assuming we have no kids, just pets. I have been consistent in telling her that I am completely willing to work on things on the condition that she cut ties with the OM, but again, they work together. When the relationship was good, it was great, and that may be the only thing keeping me around.
At this point I'm questioning everything about who I thought she was. I would hope it's a combination of the first two, but I just don't know anymore. Everybody on the outside thinks we're the perfect couple, with the world in our hands and great future prospects, but it's all a show at this point. Thanks for all your help, [censored] that there are so many who have to endure this.
Bank accounts are separated...personal accounts each, one joint for bills. She's saying she's going to cancel her cell phone and buy a new plan that she will pay for. But that kind of says to me that she would rather pay for her own plan and continue the affair than stay on ours and break contact with the OM. She also plans on staying with a friend out of town for a few days after the weekend. I don't know what to think about that.
Why does it feel like these steps are making things worse?
She's saying she's going to cancel her cell phone and buy a new plan that she will pay for. But that kind of says to me that she would rather pay for her own plan and continue the affair than stay on ours and break contact with the OM.
Yep, and you can't control that. But at least you're not financing it, and you've learned to draw an important boundary with her.
My wife had her own cellphone set up within 2 HOURS of me shutting her off of our account. And of course I then loss the intel of seeing who she was texting and how often, but I already had all the info I needed so why keep making myself crazy? It was more important to begin to get my own self-respect back, and to draw an important boundary on using our family's finances (we have four kids) on her texting and calling and sexting her OM.
Starsky
She also plans on staying with a friend out of town for a few days after the weekend. I don't know what to think about that.
Assume the worst, and plan accordingly. It's more likely she's probably just "punishing" you for putting your financial foot down, but yes she could be going to hook up with OM as well. Your response needs to be "I have no desire to control you, do as you please. Just know that I'm no longer willing to live in an open marriage, and I'm also no longer willing to lie to cover up your affair."
YES, it almost always gets "worse" before it gets better. But only if you define "worse" as "she seems angry with me." There's nothing she's going to be doing that she wasn't doing already, and the problem with a lot of these situations is that people think something is "working" simply because their wayward spouse is NICE to them. Well, they're usually "nice" when they're allowed to conduct their affair, unencumbered.
Just put on your spew jacket and hold on for the ride.
Starsky
On “Doing What Works”:
One of the misconceptions about DBing, in my opinion, is the "Do what works" thing. The problem is that people mis-define "works" as being "what doesn't make her/him angry" and "what makes her/him act nice towards me." Instead of as "what moves me further along down the path toward a mutually-healthy and committed marriage."
Sometimes one has to take a short-term "hit" in the "nice" department in order to solidify a healthier, longer-term gain.
Nicely stated.
It's calmed down a bit here, I don't know if the process is going well or what but thanks for the advice/encouragement. I'm gonna get back to GAL hopefully pretty soon.
Rev, be prepared for her to use ANY tool or trick at her disposal now, including possibly getting you to ML to her (don't do it!) or threatening to harm herself (call 911 -- seriously).
She's likely to careen all over the map now, looking for chinks in your armor.
Starsky
Ok then it only got nicer because I'm pretty positive that she is not cutting all ties but instead just being more secretive by using a messenger rather than texting and is still friends with him on fb. She uses the excuse that she works with him not to sever everything but at this point I see that as a reason to continue unencumbered as you said.
I'm going to have to do some aggressive affair busting I think... I mean at what point does the BD discussion have to happen?
What do you mean by "BD discussion?" What is it you want to say to her?
Well we kind of just talked about it. I said I was willing to work on the underlying problems plaguing our marriage before I left if she would tell the guy that her affair was over (which she hasn't done yet). I've made significant changes to how I behave and act towards her in terms of appreciation and treating her like she should be treated as a loving wife, but it's all been overshadowed by this affair.
If she won't tell him then I will, and it's not going to be polite. I've let her know that if she can't separate from him outside of the occasional work encounter (they work for partnered marketing companies) then the BD is coming on the grounds of adultery. I've been sleepless the last few nights thinking about what they were doing while I was away, I can't deal with it anymore.
If she won't tell him then I will, and it's not going to be polite. I've let her know that if she can't separate from him outside of the occasional work encounter (they work for partnered marketing companies) then the BD is coming on the grounds of adultery.
Rev, you and I stared here about the same time, so I'm new too and can't offer much in the way of advice but you may want to ask yourself if the above is likely to get you closer to your goal and if it is DBing- detaching, stop talking about the A or the R, etc. You're not going to be able to force her to end the A, and ultimatums usually don't work (I've learned that one the hard way). Chilling out and backing off is hard, hard hard but confronting the OM is only likely to drive the W to him. I thought I was at the end of my rope too, and I told the W I want a separation- now I've discovered new found strength here and I wish I didn't. Don't do anything rash or that is going to drive her further away. Wishing you the best.
It sounds like we're going through similar things at the same time then. You're right when you said that ultimatums don't work, she's said yesterday and today after the second round of discovering sexting between the two of them that the rules I've laid down and preparing for separate lives has made her feel driven away and controlled. But at the same time, I can't in good conscience let an affair continue unabated while she's living under my roof (and possibly once I go back to work conduct the affair under my roof).
This is hard.
It sounds like we're going through similar things at the same time then. You're right when you said that ultimatums don't work, she's said yesterday and today after the second round of discovering sexting between the two of them that the rules I've laid down and preparing for separate lives has made her feel driven away and controlled.
Right up there with "I don't want to see ANYONE right now, I just want to be single for awhile (while they're busy fooling around with OM or OW)."
"Controlling" = "YOU WON'T LET ME CARRY ON MY AFFAIR UNENCUMBERED!! bwwwaaaahhhhh!!!!"
Well, looks like the BGP's are coming out. She just got offered a promotion to double her salary, and was told she's next in line for a regional management position covering 2 possibly 3 states. Crazy how that happens when separation becomes a bit more real. She's got a big event that I was supposed to go to in 9 days that the OM will be working too, so I just can't bring myself to go. Anybody have any experience with something like this happening, as in, what she might do next now that she will have a larger income and contribution to joint bills?
Rev, I can somewhat relate as my W was a SHM for most of the kids younger years, only entering the workforce on a part time basis about 5 years ago. A few mos ago, she received a new job paying double her current salary. I worried that this would lead to W getting her own place and feeling justified to leave me now that should could afford to be on her own.
I don't know what advice to give you, other than I tried to be supportive and encouraging to W. I made sure to ask lots of questions about her new job and I continue to do so when we're together. If nothing else, I think it's made W feel more comfortable around me and is helping build a bridge of communication between the two of us. Remembering and asking about even small troubles or challenges she's having shows that I care about what's going on in her life and is giving her someone to talk to
But at the same time, I can't in good conscience let an affair continue unabated while she's living under my roof (and possibly once I go back to work conduct the affair under my roof).
Boundaries are about what you can control- the affair will continue whether your "let" it or not. What you can control is where you live (or where the W lives, if she is willing to leave the home) while it continues. If your boundary is not living together while the A continues, then set that boundary, but you've got to be prepared to back it up by leaving yourself in the event she continues the A and doesn't move out. Otherwise, as has been pointed out to me, you lose all credibility. Just make sure that's 100% what you want first- everything I read here says its a lot easier to DB and GAL while you are together, and physically separating is perhaps best saved as part of TLR (The Last Resort) or going dark. It's damn hard right now, but it DOES get better and easier to deal with- that's what everybody here has shown me.
I'm no DB pro, but please DON'T give an ultimatum. I look back on my sitch, and it all started to go downhill when I said its either OM or me.
I actually used those words already at one point
. I'm really trying to disconnect from jealous thoughts and following her around the house to see who she's talking to, but I keep visualizing her affair in my head and having semi-panic attacks.
I had similar thoughts about my W and OM too. In my sitch she says they are just friends and she has feelings for him, but those thoughts of physical intimacy just keep coming across my mind. I too still find myself glancing at the phone if its in range to see if its OM texting or checking when she'll be away from the phone for a few minutes.
I'd recommend to let your anger fuel your detachment. I'm not saying be rude or outright mean to her, but seeing yourself not needing her. Its not easy, but it helps in my opinion. Also, keep DBing and reading all this material on the Internet that can be reassuring of your efforts during this stressful time.
In my sitch, when I checked the phone logs online I'd see she'd text OM more than everybody else collectively in a day. And texting is primarily how she communicates. Nonetheless, after seeing this day after day, I sorta gave up trying to analyze or determine what their A was really like or if she had stopped contacting him. I still find myself checking the logs online every few days or so, but by not checking it for periods of time have helped me to calm down some and worry slightly less since I won't know anyway.
On page 2 of this thread kml said,
"I suggest you also see an attorney to find out how to protect yourself financially. If there is significant money in the joint accounts you may want to move half to an account in just your name so she can't wipe out the accounts"
I'd just like to add on some input. I was active duty Army for 8 years and you are probably aware the Army or any military branch for that matter has free services for its military personnel. I don't know what military branch you are in or your status, but I highly recommend talking to your squad leader, platoon sergeant, platoon leader, chaplain, JAG, or anybody with rank who has had a divorce in the military so you can know what actions of yours will fly and won't since ya'll are married.
Well I know the OM and her have stopped texting but I also know that they frequented a messaging app so I couldn't see that they were texting. That's where the "probable PA" messages came from. Right now I think the OM knows that I'm aware of their activities but I don't believe either of them plan on stopping their online shenanigans.
As for their in person meetings those have stopped since I'm home on R&R but they do have events for work scheduled that they will both be at. I strongly believe that they are just waiting me out until I have to go back to work next week to continue their affair but I have a plan to stop that as well.
Arcola, just got done reading your thread, I think you and I are very similar personality types; easy-going most of the time, I would ask if people have ever described you as passive or a pushover, because I have been described that way in the past. Part of the changes I've been trying to make during this deployment was to get better at standing up for myself and being more self-confident. My W has told me before to stop letting people walk all over me, and what I'm starting to realize is right now with her A, she's the biggest offender. I told her that after discovering the probable PA messages.
But similarly to your thread, I feel like I'm still putting on too much of the sad puppy dog pursuit mode by being available all the time, allowing her to snuggle up to me when we go to bed, and just letting things go even after having the, "I'm willing to work on our marriage, but not with a third person involved," conversation. She still is adamant that I'm making too much of the affair, and that they are not sleeping together. Don't believe anything she says right? When I asked her if she even wanted this marriage to work, she said she didn't know, that she was trying to figure out, "a million things going on in her head," but at least will admit that her A with the OM was a mistake (or she's just saying that because she got caught...twice).
And Starsky, when you said you were co-dependent on Arcola's thread, I've been thinking the same thing about me. All of, "our," friends are really her friends first. If I wanted to GAL and go out with people, I literally don't have anyone I know well enough around here to turn to. I've been relying on her for years to manage our social life. I might turn into that guy at the bar trying to talk to the bartender by myself, who knows?
I'm not sure if anything I said here was new or insightful, just needed an early morning release...
There are three books that I would recommend for BOTH of you, after you've read (and re-read!) either Divorce Busting or Divorce Remedy (the latter is more current).
The first is "Co-Dependent No More," the second is "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and the third is "Hold On to Your N.U.T.S." These are good resources for "pleaser/rescuer" types, and at gaining a better understanding of basic male/female attraction dynamics.
A great fourth one is "Boundaries," by Townsend & Townsend.
Without learning these skills, you're going to find yourselves repeating the same things even in future relationships if this one with your wife doesn't work out.
But start with DR, and with sandi's 37 rules. You might also try to get a DB coach, if you have the funds.
Starsky
Just picked up DR. W is heading out to her friend's place today or tomorrow, maybe that'll help with GAL...
I'm having some confusion now. Just blazed through about 70 pages of DR, and it said that the number one reason that marriages break down is that couples don't spend enough time together and/or take each other for granted. Guilty as charged, as I've outlined in previous posts given my job's hours and deployment/exercise/training schedule over the last 2 years. The last two days have been more pleasant, a cautionary sign I'm aware, but we've spent time doing things together, like going to the gym, running errands, and she's even indulged one of my GAL activities of trying to start up playing guitar again when we went shopping around for one.
One thing I haven't mentioned yet is that the OM is part of a larger group of friends that she had been associated with until her A was discovered. She's disappointed that because I refuse to see the OM in a social setting ever again (for his safety and mine), that she loses all these other friends in the process. Last night we went to a movie with one of them, a male, who I am pretty sure is not another OM. Still, their interactions tell me that I'm not her best friend anymore, I'm a complete outsider to all the group's inside jokes and sense of humor. Plus, they all are attached to their phones, something she wasn't before I deployed 6 months ago. I'm not sure if this person knows that his friend the OM and my W had/are having an A. Any thoughts on this type of contact?
In summary, on the positive side, spending time with the W and friends at least affords me the comfort of knowing she's not with the OM (although I'm always suspicious that she's messaging him during whatever we're doing), I feel like I'm doing something against DB or GAL by being around her so much. I've made the resolution to quit snooping, as that just blows things up in my face, and I have just about all the information I need to know what's going on anyways. The details might make me throw up anyways. On the negative, I share the feeling of many other guys here that by backing off and concentrating on GAL that it's just allowing the W to have her cake and eat it too. She is about to go out of town for almost a week, and hasn't seen the OM in 3 days, so I can only assume they have plans to meet up while she's staying with her friend (female).
I am conflicted.
Its good your making efforts to follow some of the topics that'll help you to DB you sitch. A taping from another organization that specializes in helping people in these sitchs, said make small changes and monitor the results, if things look like they're going astray change something else. But whatever you change stick with it.
Last night she texted me from work and was sad that she was missing a birthday party at the OM's house (one of the OM's friend's birthdays) and that this was the price she had to pay for an affair. I said I wasn't going to control who she talked to or where she went, that all I asked was that I never see the OM again, and that she remains faithful to our marriage. She didn't respond to that text, her next one was over an hour later when she told me she was on her way home. So she didn't go to the party and came home instead, not sure if that's a good sign or if she's just holding out for her trip away from home. I made sure to not be home when she got there though, made a trip to the coffee shop and got in some more DR reading while I was there.
Caught her furiously exiting out of the messaging app she and the OM have been using this morning, so the affair continues. I think she's still caught up in the addiction part of it, the thrill of the new experience, the forbidden fruit if you will. Even though what she's told me she wanted was for me to be there for her in a way I wasn't before I deployed I think she still goes to him first and me second. Especially in the intimacy department, of which there has been none (not even playful innuendo) since I've gotten home. She saved that for the OM the last time we went over there and she got drunk ("I wanna f*** you" she messaged him while I was sitting right next to both of them). Still hurts to think about, but the panic attacks are notably less frequent and severe since refusing to snoop.
Another morning brain dump, thanks for listening...
Who's paying for the wifi connection and/or the 3G she's using to send these messages to OM from inside your marital home?
Joint bill, and I've separated the phone bill to where I'm only paying for my usage. So those messages were sent over 3/4G from inside his house when we were there, and she's paying that bill.
"she messaged him while I was sitting right next to both of them). Still hurts to think about"
It is part of the turn on for her, plus she was drunk. It is all shamless. There is no respect or loyality for her H when a W is caught up in this.
Speaking of disrespect, one of my better friends who replaced me on the deployment asked about my W's downtown shenanigans that he had seen on social media and if I was OK with it. There were some pictures in particular with her and the OM with his arm draped over her shoulders, hand about an inch from her chest, that I had told her made me uncomfortable. Normally a W with respect for her husband would apologize and stop doing things like that, or just wouldn't have let that kind of contact happen in the first place. Her reaction was defensive, accusing me of trying to control her and keep her caged in the house. My friend was the one who put it in the words of the respect/disrespect angle, and he was right.
Today's day one of her being out of the house staying with her friend, and actually the departure was cordial, a kiss goodbye and an ILY. She said she wasn't going to drink last night, and she didn't, she called me stone sober before I went to bed. On the GAL front, I get to brew some beer (haven't picked up that hobby in over 2 years), listen to some metal, and watch football. Kind of relaxing actually. I still think the real test will be after I go back to work, then we'll see if these two are really still at it I think.
Alright, I need some input from peoples' BS detectors on this one:
So the W and I had plans to go to a party next weekend, a big event put on by her friend's family. She and the OM were originally scheduled to bartend for it. W calls me just now and says that I probably shouldn't go to it anymore, because a lot of the people putting on the event are not happy that I have put up the boundary of me and the OM not being in the same place. W says that the OM has backed out regardless of if I go or not, so the hosts aren't happy that they're down to one bartender either. W says that the OM won't be anywhere she is for fear that I will show up and try to fight him.
So, W says finally that her friend suggested that neither I nor the OM go to the event, since I wouldn't know anybody (and I can't fill in to bartend), and he doesn't want to run into me.
Scale of 1 to 10, where 10 is total BS - she's telling me to stay home so she can be with the OM, what say you internet?
Ill give it a 7 since these are OM's friends supposedly speaking out. I think OM will probably be there since a bunch of his friends will be too.
She's just making you out to be the bad guy in everyone's eyes. Poor OM! Poor party host! Poor friends of OM. LBH is ruining everything!why doesn't he just stay home? Nobody wants LBH at their party!
I will give her a -10 for class. You are her H. If that cramps anyone's style, that's their problem. Do what you want to do!
I had been looking forward to going and meeting her friend's family, plus it's a big themed party, but now if I insist on going would that be pursuit or spying on the W? I'm still trying to figure out what to believe...I know it's 0% of what she says and 50% of what she does but at this point the scenario would have to be that there's a conspiracy of people keeping her and the A a secret. Possible I guess since I'm the one most of them haven't met.
10 ok,
what i learned very quickly was that if my W was insistant that i not go somewhere thats she is going then she would be meeting OM .
so i would turn up and find them together lol.
Alright, I need some input from peoples' BS detectors on this one:
So the W and I had plans to go to a party next weekend, a big event put on by her friend's family. She and the OM were originally scheduled to bartend for it. W calls me just now and says that I probably shouldn't go to it anymore, because a lot of the people putting on the event are not happy that I have put up the boundary of me and the OM not being in the same place.
A: "Well, I'm sorry they feel that way. I haven't decided yet whether or not I want to go, but I can assure you my decision will have NOTHING to do what these people think about my personal business. But thanks for letting me know."
And then you should show up.
A: "Well, I'm sorry they feel that way. I haven't decided yet whether or not I want to go, but I can assure you my decision will have NOTHING to do what these people think about my personal business. But thanks for letting me know."
And then you should show up.
Sounds like I'll have to have this conversation with her again then. I did mention that these people had no reason to think poorly of me as I was the LBS, and this boundary would probably prevent a nasty confrontation between the OM and I, so for that they should be thankful. One problem is that I have no idea where this thing is, and the original plan was for us to stay down there overnight (it's about an hour away), which would mean we would have to have a pet sitter, so just showing up would require a bit more planning. Plus, if I were to show up and the OM was there amongst a group of mostly his friends, I don't think that would go well for me...physically or emotionally.
actually, you don't even NEED to show up. Just maintain the CREDIBLE THREAT of showing up.
If her and OM don't know what you're going to do, they then have to plan accordingly.
The problem with the answer you gave is that you are JUSTIFYING and EXPLAINING yourself to her. Your boundary ("I expect my wife to be faithful; I cannot abide a marriage where my wife is in inappropriate contact with another man") is self-evident, has already been stated (too often, IMHO) and needs no further explanation.
You can't REASON with a wayward.
Starsky
Yup, just part of my brain's wiring I guess; very logical, methodical, feel like everything needs to be explained and justified with evidence. Although from talking to her it sounds like she has genuine remorse for all this, now that it's not just me that is affected by this situation, but also her and the OM's friends. Or she's a good actress.
I haven't initiated calls/texts since she's been out of town, and haven't initiated ILY since discovering her nasty messages. She does know I'm reading DR, but I haven't asked her to read it. I have stuck to my resolution to not snoop so far, but I am still a proponent of, "trust but verify."
Still feel like I backslide every now and then though, I have talked to both my parents and her mom, but only had told them that we are just going through a rough spot. Unfortunately that somehow prompted her mom calling her and basically telling her that she's a disappointment to the family and everybody back home thinks she's either sleeping around or gay. At least the W called me to talk about it and not the OM, is that a good sign?
Anyways, I've been feeling better with some time to myself, so if nothing else there's that. Probably going down to the range and pop off a couple rounds, haven't gotten any time out there since before I deployed (and thankfully I wasn't in a location where I needed to shoot back).
I don't think that would go well for me...physically or emotionally.
This touches a nerve. At one point in my ordeal, my WAW's enabling girlfriend (who knows about W's A and helped her cover for it) talked my W into reporting something that resulted in my being arrested. (charges later dismissed)
While I would
never stoop so low as to do anything like that to my W in retaliation, her friend now occupies a very special place in my heart.
Don't go looking for trouble, but if I were so much as touched, I'd have 911 all over that party in a heartbeat. Thugs are thugs whether they are besties of your W's OM or not. There is some crap you just
don't have to put up with.
You can't REASON with a wayward.
THAT. Words to live by right now.
I think all of us try to make sense of things. Unfortunately there is no sense to be found in the brain of a WS. Trying to reason with them is going down a cheeseless tunnel, as MWD says.
Starsky's advice is spot on.
Wise advice, Zew -- as always.
I think the problem isn't that I'd be looking for trouble, but I have no idea how I would react to seeing the OM. Not sure I would do well seeing both of them behind the bar, most likely flirting away like they were the last time all three of us were in the same house. I think Starsky's got the right idea for my situation, credible possibility that I make an appearance. Whether I do or not I'll have to play by ear.
Rev,
There's a bigger problem at hand as well: Your wife's friends.
They seem OK with her flirting and/or sleeping with the OM. And you seem to be the "problem". If her friends were real friends they would say, "Bring your husband, the OM isn't welcome." But apparently they are loyal to a man who wants to steal another man's wife.
This is her social circle. People tend not to rise above the moral base-line of their community. It seems you wife's new social circle is A-OK with adultery.
Take Starsky's advice.
Also the first half of the DR is about solving relatively benign marital problems. It does, alter in the book, talk about a Last Resort Technique, After the Last Resort Technique (going dark) and ultimatums. Those are all part of the arsenal.
I honestly don't know who knows what in that circle. The friend she's staying with apparently knows everything (from what the W has told me), but the party itself is being put on by that friends' parents, who I'm not sure understand what's going on, other than the OM and I can't be in the same place at the same time. I suspect they have their ideas as to why, but I don't know if the W's friend has told her parents what she knows either.
I can't for sure say that they are OK with adultery if they don't know it's going on, but at the same time, they all know him and have never met me. I'm the outsider, it's felt that way since I've been back, and as I've said in a previous post, I don't have a social circle of my own to go to right now. Everybody I know is scattered to the four winds taking their R&R as well.
Nuts, another backslide... It had been going well today, she had been initiating texts and calls but at one point said, "feel free to call me whenever today I'll just be at the apartment by myself." I'll admit I got pretty bored today and gave her a call... The conversation was going well, just going on about what each of us had been doing the last couple days and somehow got on the topic of food. I'm grilling out, something we both like to do, and like an idiot I said, "there's some waiting for you if you come home." "Are you encouraging me to come back early?"
Creeeap.
Backpeddling, I said, "I'm not encouraging you to do anything, just letting you know what's here."
Poop.
I'm sliding bad...checked the phone log, she's been calling him and him calling her all weekend, the times seem to line up with how long it takes to get from here to where she is. She had a big falling out with her mom last night, turns out she called him and talked to him for half an hour after that before calling me about it.
I'm going for a drive.
Rev,
I know its difficult to do, but checking the phone logs will drive you crazy. When I don't check them I'm at least not angry. You can get to the point where you don't check them. Stay strong.
Last night was a pretty huge setback, when she called me this morning we both agreed that we had been making some good progress in the days leading up to it just through phone conversations, but that my freakout really put a damper on it. 1 step forward, 2 steps back? Anyways, GAL success today, got paid for the deployment so I went and bought a new guitar and amplifier as a gift to myself. Spent the afternoon trying to remember how to play the damned thing.
Tomorrow the W comes home from staying with her friend, but tonight they're going out on the town together, which always makes me nervous given she's usually been drinking when her worst behavior exhibits itself. Tonight, however, I'm going to sleep like a rock, because stressing out last night didn't lead to a good night's rest.
Hey here's a question: how should I greet her when she walks in the door? I know I shouldn't be over-enthusiastic and appear fake, but I don't want to ignore her either. Anyways, not being home at the same time when I go back to work this week is going to be a test, but I'm feeling a lot better about it now.
I guess I need to post a status update since I haven't posted in a while, and things have been going pretty well actually.
W returned from her stay with her friend on Wednesday, and we've been spending some good time together. She's working on two big events events for work, and I've helped when I could, but obviously I've also been on the GAL, getting back to work and hitting the gym quite a bit (something I let go after returning from my last deployment). I've been fairly patient in terms of discussing our marriage, trying to let her initiate those talks. There have been a few minor slip-ups for me on that one, but I've learned to detach and cut losses before it turns into a fight. Her being defensive and getting pissed off doesn't get us anywhere.
Yesterday was a particularly good day, even though I had to stay a bit late at work. She asked if I could visit her at work on the way home, and said she looked forward to spending some quality time together at home. We did have a bit of a spat over finances, but it calmed down rather quickly, and actually splitting the finances has helped us do something we agreed we needed to do a long time ago: better budget planning. It used to be a common occurrence that one of us would check the joint account and wonder how it got so low, then spend the rest of the pay period staying in and saving. Now, all the bills are laid out and there is a clear division of assets and contributions to joint bills. I have remained firm in not paying for her phone usage, which she still begrudges, but understands.
Spent the night together as she did final preparation for her big event today, I cooked dinner (I am the house chef), and she prepared samples of the cocktails she is serving today. We laid down for bed, I paid her a compliment, and before I knew what was going on we were in the middle of an ML session. It was...passionate to say the least.
I dunno guys, everything feels really good right now but I know we still have issues to work out. I hope I'm not getting set up for disaster, but I'm really optimistic right now.
I dunno guys, everything feels really good right now but I know we still have issues to work out. I hope I'm not getting set up for disaster, but I'm really optimistic right now.
It feels good b/c of the emotional high and your hopes are soaring. You are setting yourself up for disappointment.
Rev, do you know how you grade what kind of day it is? Just by reading your posts, I can tell you base a good or bad day according to your W's actions. Try to break yourself from allowing her to make or break your day. It takes real effort in not focusing on her and letting it choose what type of day you have. That should be your decision and power.....not another person's. When you detach successfully, you will be the one who determines what kind of day to make it. If your emotions are the determining factor, you will need to learn how to control your emotions, instead of the emotions being in control. Make sense?
So how have you been since the last post?
I've been pretty good, actually now that the rest of the guys I deployed with are coming off of R&R, they're available to do stuff. Spent the day kayaking and went to dinner with friends and had a great time. Still had to go home a little early to let out the dogs, the W was working at the time.
W has been honest with me that she still has contact with the OM outside of work, but I've not tried to control, still giving her the, "you do what you're going to do, but I'm not going to wait around for you," bit, but I will say that in-person contact with the OM is down drastically (because we're spending a lot of QT together). I haven't had any, "episodes," since the last backslide post, probably because I've stuck to my no-snooping resolution, despite opportunities to do so. So that feels good.
I still feel like I'm in a Catch-22 though, I've been doing well in the GAL department by reviving old hobbies, going to the gym, going out with friends without the W, and not controlling what the W does with her time, but I know that by being unavailable all the time or ignoring her plays directly into the reason she sought an OM in the first place. We have been spending QT together a lot recently, and she suggested that I take some more leave so we can spend more time with just the two of us, during times when I know her and the OM would have all day to be together. As an aside, the gym I just joined is not the one she goes to, I know the co-dependent me wouldn't have done that before. I probably would have joined her gym and tried to make due in a place lacking in the equipment I prefer just so we would be at the same gym.
Anyways, I do still always have the, "am I being taken advantage of," question in the back of my mind, but there's no doubt that time passing and GAL efforts have helped my mental state greatly. Thanks to everybody here for the help so far, and I know I've still got a ways to go.
Good or bad sign: wife and I were at dinner, she opened up to me about the affair, admitting to a PA, but that it was non-sexual. She admitted to them kissing and that she spent nights in his bed, but still stands by her assertion that they never had sex. I know as part of healing from an affair the wayward spouse needs to be open to the betrayed, so I took it as a positive step. I told her that I appreciated her being more open with me about exactly what happened (I think I fall in the category of the needing-to-know-details crowd), but that I still assumed the worst to save myself more emotional pain in the case that she finally does admit to a sexual affair.
Thoughts?
She's trickle-truthing you. WASs involved in A's will not tell the LBS the whole truth at first because (in their eyes) they are saving the LBS from pain. When in truth it's just their way of not confronting the truth.
Did she want to R with you?
I told her that I appreciated her being more open with me about exactly what happened (I think I fall in the category of the needing-to-know-details crowd), but that I still assumed the worst to save myself more emotional pain in the case that she finally does admit to a sexual affair.
It's my experience that it doesn't matter how much you suspect/assume/guess... actual confirmation is a mother.
She's trickle-truthing you. WASs involved in A's will not tell the LBS the whole truth at first because (in their eyes) they are saving the LBS from pain. When in truth it's just their way of not confronting the truth.
This was also my experience.
It's been my observation that a wayward spouse will usually admit to one level less than what really happened. It's highly likely she had sex with him, and my advice would be to proceed under that assumption.
Starsky
It's been my observation that a wayward spouse will usually admit to one level less than what really happened. It's highly likely she had sex with him, and my advice would be to proceed under that assumption.
Starsky
Spot on as always Starsky...I've been operating under that assumption since the 9th when I found the second round of dirty messages, and actually I'm guilty of the, "admission of one level less," behavior too. About a week after I met my W I went on a planned spring break trip with my roommate, his GF, and her sorority sister, with whom I shared a room/bed. Of course when I got back my future W asked if anything happened and I said we had kissed. Much later, after we were engaged I revealed that we had sex after heavy drinking. So I hear where you're coming from.
I know I'm getting trickle-truthed but it's a HUGE improvement over her attitude when I first got back a few weeks ago, which was disrespectful and full on denial even after I found the first set of pictures. She does now say that she wants to work on our marriage and that the last week has made her want to be closer to me, but the remaining contact with the OM is still preventing me from talking about the future with her. Like I said, things are better, but we still have work to do.
Ok, who said I was setting myself up for disaster? Hat tip to you, because you were right. Here I thought things were going so well, the W's career with her company is taking off, she was much happier, we were enjoying each other's company and (what I thought) getting to know each other all over again.
Recently, and I've mentioned this guy before once, she's been talking to and messaging a guy from our previous station, let's just go ahead and call him OM2. He's been having problems in his marriage and W says she's the only person he feels comfortable talking to about it. Recently, one of her phone conversations made me suspicious, and yes, I had another jealous slide tonight. She and OM2 have been exchanging messages back and forth, but not all about his marital problems. Many are how he misses her, wants to lay by her, shirtless pictures of him, blah blah blah. She has told and still tells both OM and OM2 that she loves them. I suspect past PA with OM2, EA with both OM and OM2 still continuing.
We had talked about marriage tonight with her boss, about ups and downs, how they got through rough times, and after we dropped her off the conversation turned nasty. I tried to tell her that while we had been doing well I still had issues with trust and whatnot, and she exploded (spew jacket handy?). Accused me of trying to bring her down just when her career is going well and that once she gets this job that she could leave me whenever she wanted to. To me that kind of cheapens what a marriage is. I don't think she identifies a marriage as meaning anything anymore.
Sleeping on the couch tonight, gym in the morning I guess... Where did I go wrong? That may be a long list looking back...
Ok, who said I was setting myself up for disaster? Hat tip to you, because you were right.
That would be sandi. Our resident guru-ess.
That would be great, I can't stop looking at the damn text activity on Verizon's site and wondering what picture/video was sent. It's awful. Problem is, our bank account is shared, so even if she got a separate phone plan, the money would still come out of that account. The first step may be for her to get her own bank account.
Better: You set up your own account that she can't access, and you have your paycheck DD'd into it each payday. Then you transfer some set amount of money into yours and hers joint account to pay for the shared marital expenses. She sets up her own account, and does the same. Each of your contributions into the joint marital account should be in proportion to your income (say, 90/10 or 80/20 or whatever).
Then tell your wife what you set up. Tell her you are no longer willing to pay any expenses for anything associated with her affair, and tell her she'll need to get her own cellphone by 48 hours as you'll be shutting that down as well. "I will not use our family's money to pay for you to send half-naked pictures of yourself to other men. If you want to do that, you can pay for that out of your own account, and your own income."
Remove her access to any joint credit cards or lines-of-credit as well, and only tell her AFTER you've done so (make this move in conjunction with the banking moves mentioned above).
Continue to provide for your wife's basic needs, but not her wants and certainly not her affair. While you can't control her decision to flee from your marriage, there's certainly nothing that says you need to finance her flight.
Tough stuff, but I had to do it too. You need to protect your family's finances, and people caught up in what your wife is have been known to do some pretty crazy things.
Starsky
Did you ever do any of this?
That would be great, I can't stop looking at the damn text activity on Verizon's site and wondering what picture/video was sent. It's awful. Problem is, our bank account is shared, so even if she got a separate phone plan, the money would still come out of that account. The first step may be for her to get her own bank account.
Better: You set up your own account that she can't access, and you have your paycheck DD'd into it each payday. Then you transfer some set amount of money into yours and hers joint account to pay for the shared marital expenses. She sets up her own account, and does the same. Each of your contributions into the joint marital account should be in proportion to your income (say, 90/10 or 80/20 or whatever).
Then tell your wife what you set up. Tell her you are no longer willing to pay any expenses for anything associated with her affair, and tell her she'll need to get her own cellphone by 48 hours as you'll be shutting that down as well. "I will not use our family's money to pay for you to send half-naked pictures of yourself to other men. If you want to do that, you can pay for that out of your own account, and your own income."
Remove her access to any joint credit cards or lines-of-credit as well, and only tell her AFTER you've done so (make this move in conjunction with the banking moves mentioned above).
Continue to provide for your wife's basic needs, but not her wants and certainly not her affair. While you can't control her decision to flee from your marriage, there's certainly nothing that says you need to finance her flight.
Tough stuff, but I had to do it too. You need to protect your family's finances, and people caught up in what your wife is have been known to do some pretty crazy things.
Starsky
Did you ever do any of this?
I did, the first paychecks went into the private accounts this week, and I have a spreadsheet outlining monthly joint bills and how much each of us is to contribute each paycheck. We still have a joint phone plan, but the bill breaks out charges based on individual line usage, so I can still divide it up to where I am only paying for my phone and she pays for hers. I showed that to her so she understood what I was doing, and given last night's discovery, it was a good move, at least I'm not paying for that data usage...
We don't have any joint credit cards, never did, the only joint credit lines are auto loans and a mortgage, which I consider joint bills that she contributes to. I've probably been too lenient in paying for things when we go out, but we've played it off like I was taking her on dates (which sometimes they were). But that's not exactly funding an affair is it?
I think I'm failing in the patience department, but the one affair with OM2 is at least a year and a half old. I told her I didn't want to be in an open marriage with this stuff going on, but she's still denying anything other than a friendship and one time when OM2 spent the night (during a different deployment...pattern?). I'm going to the gym.
Good deal on the finances.
It sounds like you have a full-blown, resentful/entitled, serial adulteress on your hands. That's way above MY pay-grade, or even the techniques and strategies of DBing, in my experience. All you can do is REMOVE YOURSELF from the situation, I'm afraid.
Starsky
She's resentful that I've been away so long and that she never wanted the military spouse life, but chose to marry me anyway as a young, naive 22 year-old. Therefore she feels entitled to hold that against me, in the form of blaming me not being there for turning to these men, and I point out that regardless of how neglected she felt, the decision to have inappropriate relationships with other guys was hers alone. Round and round we go.
What do you mean remove myself from the situation? Detach more? LRT? Or are you suggesting the only solution is the Big D? Today was the first time I said that we need to go to counseling, not sure if that would help her be more truthful, or if it would put her into defensive mode, but it's something we have yet to seriously look into.
I've got two of your recommended books on the way, the, "No More Mister Nice Guy," and, "Hold on to your N.U.T.S." Let's see what those have to tell me. This whole situation just took a really weird turn yesterday, just when I thought things were improving.
I mean let her go -- completely. Whether that's a divorce or whether it's a separation where you "stand" for your marriage (having had to remove yourself from it as it's emotionally unhealthy for you to continue to face such deceit and disrespect), that's for you to decide. But at some point a man can't let the drowning person pull them under with them.
I think this has been asked about on other posts, but what's this community's view on what I would call, "Blowing the Roof off the Dump?" As in, I want to address both OM's personally and tell them that I know what is going on, and it is not OK. After that telling family and friends what the W has been up to. And then leaving. I've been doing a lot of negative thinking today
I guess I'm trying to figure out a) whether R is possible/what we actually want to do and b) what I or the W needs to do or see for that to happen 100%. I told her what I expected if there was ever going to be full trust between us again, i.e. she needs to devote herself to re-building our marriage, which would involve cutting all romantic/inappropriate ties to both OM's and proving it (full disclosure/access). Cue the wayward, "you're treating me like a child/being controlling," script. Fine, I went to the gym.
The only reason I thought about confronting the OM's head on is mainly because the W has always had an issue with me being passive in defending her against male advances, taking a laid back approach and rationalizing it with, "well if I trust my wife, I shouldn't be jealous," all the while dismissing huge red flag warning signs of infidelity. Actually, one of our neighbors messaged me during my previous deployment a picture of OM2's car parked in front of her house and said she saw a man walk into our house. The W and I laughed it off that she was the neighborhood busybody, slightly crazy, and that wasn't the OM2's car (I didn't know that is was). W revealed to me before returning home from this last deployment (almost a year later) that OM2 had stayed over that night, but had stayed in the guest room (lie). Another example: way back when we were engaged we went out barhopping with friends, and she complained that the brother of one of my good friends was making inappropriate advances and grabbed her backside. Not wanting confrontation, I said, "well I didn't see it," and never said anything to the guy. That night ended in a huge fight where she complained that I never defended her. So this issue has a history.
Anyways, maybe I've been doing myself a disservice in trying to psychoanalyze what my W wants to see from me to really commit to R, and defending our marriage from outside threats is one of those things that I've been mulling. Although as some have said, that could end very, very badly.
But, I think the reasoning behind no disclosure is that it makes it harder to reconcile if the A has been widely disclosed as it embarrasses the spouse to the family and makes for more discord within the family because everybody knows and they become hostile to the spouse for acting inappropriately. Although Starsky did disclose, as I rememeber, and it worked for him, it's just not DBing.
H actually exposed his affair to everyone himself, he introduced the girlfriend and her kids to his family immediately. It made things harder on ME when he wanted to try and work things out. I felt betrayed by not only H but by his entire family.
Long story but his family is not welcome in my home now.
And my friends "informed" OW that H was married/told her to stay away.
It didn't stop/slow them down at all. So my advice to you is abandon that idea.
Ok I need input in the form of an answer to the question, "did I just do that right?"
W was taking a nap and the urge to snoop was overwhelming. I decided to take a trip to the coffee shop and do some reading to prevent checking her phone. Just as I'm about to walk out the door her alarm goes off and she wakes up, asking why I'm leaving without saying goodbye or where I was going. So I told her. I said I was going out for a bit because I hated feeling the desire to watch her every move and I knew she didn't like being spied on either. That led into a fight about how I had no reason to be suspicious and that she had told me everything. I told her I knew that she was not being completely honest with me and until she wanted to be then I wasn't going to devote myself to an M where I'm the only one in it 100%. If she decided that she could never be fully truthful then we would have to separate (no D word).
Engage spewfest. Right in the middle of her rant about not wanting to see me until we meet out of town in a few days I was out the door and am writing this from the coffee shop.
Man she's mad, and I notice that I'm detached enough to be ok with that. So...did I do that right?
Why would you raise all that stuff with her, esp with her just waking up from a nap? To my mind, unplanned and unscripted R talks are never a good idea. Why would you do it? I think there's some fruitful info waiting there if you find your answer.
Rev,
I don't think you did it right. You should have just said you were going to get some coffee (hell! Starbucks is irresistible) or run some errands AND left off the part of keeping yourself from checking her phone. I think she may go into super ninja mode where it'll be hard to trace any dialogue she has with OM.
In my sitch, I felt an urge to check myself this past Fri. night after she got home from work like at 1130PM and was knocked out, but I didn't. I recalled a guy on these forums mentioning he failed in his quest to have his marriage work. Snooping and getting caught was a reason he felt contributed to his failure.
By the way, are you in a Signal unit? When I was in the Army I was in 11th Sig. Bde. back when they were in Ft. Hauchuca, AZ.
Yeah, close but no cigar. I always feel like I almost get it, but I'm still bad at just going out on my own. I mean, I was just about out the door when she woke up, and for some reason I felt the need to tell her that I was going away to keep from snooping when she asked what was going on with me just doing things without her. I only ask because I was just sitting down with my coffee when she called me asking when I was going to be home. Still, even when she started crying on the phone about how hard all this was on her, I honestly didn't feel anything anymore. In the past I might have gotten up and ran back home to her, but instead I took my time to drink my coffee, and read a bit of, "No More Mr. Nice Guy." Just the first chapter of that book is revealing to me more things I've been getting wrong.
For example, being the guy that is more like a girlfriend than a romantic interest, i.e. I cook for her, run errands for her, and am just too anxious to drop what I'm doing to be nice that she may not find me romantically attractive. Thing is, OM2 is even more of a nice guy than I am (I know him fairly well) but she still had/has romantic interest in him.
Arc - No, I'm actually in the Air Force but stationed on an Army post. We work on close air support coordination through TACP's embedded with Army units when we're deployed.
Update/Journaling:
So this weekend was a huge event for the W and I, a car meet on the other side of the country, where we met two old friends and carted our show car on a trailer. OM2 has been going through some major marriage issues of his own, and has been talking to my W on their messaging app of choice. W says it's solely for support and he has nobody else to talk to about it (he probably doesn't), but she has yet to give me full disclosure/access. Still, we've been working on spending QT together, I've refrained from snooping, and this trip was going to be a really big thing for us.
We met our friends at their house, which is actually our house that they are renting, and OM2 was messaging W that there was some horrible stuff going on and he needed to get away from the house (she has been known to be physically abusive). We offered him a seat in the SUV to take him to the event with us, but when the time came to leave, he didn't show. Fast forward, he ends up going to the airport and getting a one-way ticket to where we were headed, and so he joined us at the event. I was encouraged though, because W had no problem showing affection towards me in front of him, she seemed to prefer my company, and when we went out to the bar she gravitated towards me, not him. If you remember from previous posts, the last time she, I, and an OM were in the same room and drinking was involved, she was blatantly flirtatious towards the OM, not me. We even fooled around in the hotel bed with OM2 sleeping on the floor next to us. I noticed her looking at me in a way I hadn't seen in a long time.
But of course, now I'm home and she's at a big event for work, and I realize I haven't kept any evidence of her being a wayward spouse. So I found a way to monitor the messaging app that she has been using with both OM's. She hasn't been talking to OM1 all that much recently, which is encouraging, but OM2 and her have still been telling each other how much they wish they could be with each other, exchanging nudie pics (she sent him one from the bathroom this morning) and they have been doing quite a bit of talking about his marital problems. So I emailed the entire thing to myself. The one short conversation with OM1 that I saw included him sending her a picture of his bicep. So there's still something there too.
What do I do? This weekend went so well and she's been telling me how much better our marriage has been, but I think that's all just that we haven't gotten into a fight. I may just keep the messages as evidence if needed later. Do I confront her or just act like I don't know anything? I feel like I'm doing everything wrong.
What do I do? This weekend went so well and she's been telling me how much better our marriage has been, but I think that's all just that we haven't gotten into a fight.
Yep. And at least you now know clearly what's going on.
If it were me, without revealing the source of my intel, I'd calmly tell her "I know all about you and _______, and we both know you're lying to me when you say it's 'just friends.' This isn't working for me; I've got some decisions to make."
And then I'd go dim on her, perhaps even telling her she needs to move out.
You did the financial piece of this already; it's time to tighten the remaining screws in my opinion. This is of course assuming that you can't tolerate your wife sexting with other men while married to you and in your marital home.
You have no kids, Rev. Some of us would've KILLED for that kind of clarity and simplicity in our sitches. What took me 60 days to eventually do would've been done in 6.
Starsky
I did that once before and met with total denial. This post, when I went to the coffee shop:
"I told her I knew that she was not being completely honest with me and until she wanted to be then I wasn't going to devote myself to an M where I'm the only one in it 100%. If she decided that she could never be fully truthful then we would have to separate (no D word).
Engage spewfest. Right in the middle of her rant about not wanting to see me until we meet out of town in a few days I was out the door and am writing this from the coffee shop."
Only now I have it saved and ready. I've been playing a scenario in my mind where when she gets back from this trip she's on, there would be a note on the door telling everything including a printout of the evidence to support it. The note would basically say that I would no longer be walked on or treated like a backstop if a relationship with OM2 wasn't going to work. I would be at a hotel somewhere for a few days, and the note would tell her not to be home when I get back. I would not respond to any of her calls/messages until I felt it was time to discuss D, and lay out the absolute bottom line if R was even possible (NC w/both OM's, full disclosure/access, sincere remorse and verbal/written statement of wanting to re-commit to the marriage). On the other hand, I have a suspicion that OM2 is actively trying to steal my W away and the two of them are just biding their time until his probably divorce goes through so W can leave me high and dry. The body of evidence is not robust enough to support that quite yet, and I'm working an exercise this and next week so I won't have time to talk to a lawyer about my rights and how to get the D started. One thing I did read was about a thing called, "condonation," where if I don't take some sort of action towards the adulterer(s) then I'm effectively condoning the activity and can't use it as grounds for divorce.
I have already told her that I had forgiven her for the affair with OM1, but under the assumption that it had stopped, and to be honest her communications with him recently have been fairly innocent compared to OM2. She doesn't know that I know the extent of their affair.
I'm looking at giving the screws a twist after this exercise is done and I can talk to a lawyer, assuming this thing is still going on, which I can see being the case in almost every scenario.
Could not agree more with Starsky. My D was probably the biggest factor keeping me in my sitch when things were going bad. Lies, texts to OM and so on. If not for my D I would have never put up with that kind of crap at all. Whether my W was "confused" or not. Everyone is different, but I cant see how you can just accept that and not say anything just because you had a good time. As good of a time as you had, seems like she is having a even better time.
Of course she is telling you how much better your M has been. You're not fighting with her anymore and she has two OM's on the side. Heck, seems like a pretty good set up to me.
Don't post (or give to her, or even tell her what you have) your evidence -- just say "I know all about you and _______, including _________ (maybe dropping some specific detail in this 2nd blank)." If you give her all your specifics, she will:
a) know the source of your intel;
b) lie to try and refute it;
c) assume (correctly?) that you don't have anything else.
There is power in them not knowing what you know, and what you DON'T know, and so they have to then assume you know EVERYTHING.
Make sense?
Also, there's no sense listing your "demands" until such time she asks back in to the marriage. To do so now just smacks of a "grand pronouncement" and holier-than-thou.
Yes, there is a legal principle called condonation and the rules vary by state. Is yours a "fault" (cause) state for divorce? If it's not, it's not going to really matter.
Starsky