1 step forward, 1000 steps back - part 5

Prior thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2478377#Post2478377

Operation zucchini bread - check
Operation zucchini brownies - check
Operation ice hockey game - check

My next mission....Operation yard work!

I know, not very sexy or glamorous. But, I think some team work around the house could be good for us. The house has overwhelmed me and I've taken that stress out on H in the past. If I could show off "hey, we've got this and I'm not going to freak and get overwhelmed anymore" I think that might be really good for not just him but me too. Being more of a team and getting things done around here together is something I want more of in our M. Thoughts?

MDU,

Next hockey game you go, you would want to be sure to hang out at the rink after the game. I remember after playing softball games, we'd all go out for pizza and beer.

I would hold off on the operation yard work for the following reasons:

1) H isn't back at the house
2) Yard work is hard & sweaty work...not a light, breezy, or fun activity at all
3) It will not build a positive memory of you and your interactions

The focus is on re-attracting H with light and breezy things/activities. For these activities/actions to work, you need to plant positive and happy memories in H's mind about you. Positive memories equates positive feelings about YOU.

Pretty simple, eh?

Originally Posted By: Wonka

MDU,

Next hockey game you go, you would want to be sure to hang out at the rink after the game. I remember after playing softball games, we'd all go out for pizza and beer.

In my neck of the woods, if you tell someone you play in a softball league, they'll ask "Beer league, or church league?"

Originally Posted By: Starsky309

Originally Posted By: Wonka

MDU,

Next hockey game you go, you would want to be sure to hang out at the rink after the game. I remember after playing softball games, we'd all go out for pizza and beer.

In my neck of the woods, if you tell someone you play in a softball league, they'll ask "Beer league, or church league?"

Are you THAT old, Starsky?!

What, that I say "neck of the woods" LOL?

H dropped off kids tonight and hung around a bit to show me how to use the electric saw and weed whacker. I am kid free this weekend and have big yard work plans

He offered to come tomorrow night and mow the lawn (assuming he doesn't have another hockey game, which me might). I gladly took him up on it, I know how to do it but it's not something I particularly enjoy.

Nothing else new to report. I feel decent emotionally but really tired all the time. I think it's the ADs. I am supposed to check in with my doc in a few days, curious to find out if this is a permanent side effect. That would kind of be a pain.

H came to pick up the kids this am and D4 was still sleeping. I had to get to work so I told him to take his time at the house, let her sleep and get her up and ready whenever he was ready to go. Tonight he is coming by to drop off the kids and mow the lawn. Yesterday he took the kids to the beach then gave them showers at the house so I wouldn't have to deal with it.

It's like he's got a couple of toes back in the family. Not sure if this is good or bad, if I should encourage or discourage this behavior. Right now I'm just going with it.

I'm getting a little anxious about school starting after labor day. D4 is starting kindergarten and I'm not psyched about her having to adjust to that and continuing this back and forth to FIL's house with H. Same with S7, who struggles with doing HW and I also fear the shuffling around will not be good for him. The thought crossed my mind that perhaps H and I should arrange an in house separation just to keep the kids in one place but since we're not firmly on a reconciliation path I'm thinking that's probably not a good idea.

There you go, getting ahead of yourself again, mdu. Every, single time H starts to nibble, you want to pull the line.

Slowwwwwwwwwwww and steady.

My two cents: Let an in-home S be your H's idea, just like you gave him the opportunity to offer to help with mowing instead of asking for his help. Your H has it in him to initiate movement toward you and the family. Clearly. Let him drive that ship.

The kids will be fine, no matter what, because they have two parents who adore them.

Just enjoy these moments when things look up with H and continue your GAL. THAT is the golden ticket.

Thx for the reminders, Train!

Hey, that's what I'm here for!

Just called my doc to find out what to do about being so tired all the time (I'm assuming it's because of the ADs). It's really becoming an issue and I feel like could bring me down if I don't get on top of it. Actually, it is sort of bringing me down already because my motivation is so low, I want to go to bed early and sleep in late. I end up leaving the office to work at home just so I can kick back with my laptop on the couch. Getting much LESS done than normal. My mood has definitely leveled off but this side effect is not good.

One thing I am trying to make sense of is the idea of 'slow and steady' yet many folks who have been successful really slammed down the hammer pretty rapidly and hard (lawyers, heading down the D path) and things turned in their favor quickly.

I guess I'm not understanding how 'slow and steady' with H is realistically going to land us where I want to be? It seems like all it's going to do is put is permenately in limbo.

Not that I am in any way a vet, but it seems to me that the people who did that were in situations with a lot greater conflict than you or I have had. Train and T0324 both had H's who really put the screws to them financially and were truly cruel personally, so they had to seriously stand up for themselves for the entire experience just to get by.

That said, I wish I had initially taken a MUCH harder line with my H last year. It's too late to take that path now, though, so I'm going to have to go with slow and steady and hope that it leads to a more lasting marriage at the end.

Lesson learned...

Originally Posted By: mdu

I guess I'm not understanding how 'slow and steady' with H is realistically going to land us where I want to be?

It can be done, and although I'm clearly in the "come down hard and early" camp around here, there ARE advantages to the "slow and steady" approach (less damage to the wayward spouse that you'll have to salve for one). MOST of the reason I advise against going slow is YOUR ability to handle it. It takes a really incredible person to be able to stand for more than about six months, I've found.

However:

a) you ARE a pretty incredible person, mdu, when you keep your emotional reactivity in check -- I think you can do it!; and

b) as was just pointed out to you, your relationship with your H right now is pretty good -- not a lot of confrontation and adversarial stuff like a lot of us were going thru.

I recommend coming down HARD AND FAST when there is a definite PA or EA, the betrayed spouse knows, the wayward spouse KNOWS that you know, and then they are unrepentant/in-your-face about it. Because in those situations, a lot of damage can be done by the entitlement-fueled wayward spouse, and they will also rapidly lose respect (and therefore attraction, and therefore LOVE) when they perceive the betrayed spouse's "standing" as a sign of WEAKNESS.

In my opinion.

Starsky

Thx Maybell & Starsky. I just continue to be amazed by the wisdom here, both vets and relative newbies.

Interestingly, I do feel like I've taken a somewhat hard approach with H at various times throughout this whole ordeal. When I first discovered the A I made him call and tell his family (his parents and his eldest son). Of course I had him call the OW and end it, although he insisted on doing that privately which I regret. I initiated him leaving the house during both our first separation and this current one because I could not tolerate his moodiness, lack of commitment to working on the M and obvious pining for OW. So, if it's in my face and I can and will take a stand.

But this current sitch with OW in the office and I don't know what's *really* going on is so tough. I feel like perhaps I am being taken advantage of and should take a stand but I just don't know. I kind of wish I had better intel than just joint CC and his phone records --- both of which he knows I can access.

Quote:

That said, I wish I had initially taken a MUCH harder line with my H last year. It's too late to take that path now, though, so I'm going to have to go with slow and steady and hope that it leads to a more lasting marriage at the end.

Totally disagree with that statement.

I've also heard the phrase.."A blowout is better than a small leak" (which I have found to be true.)

So, it's too late to do a 180? That's not how I interpret DR and DB. I actually understand it to mean, when what you are doing isn't working, that doing a complete 180 is called for and necessary. Then monitor results. Try to find something that works.

Find Bumble B's thread. I think it is in MLC.
Then go find Why Try's thread.. I believe he has been in Newcomers...

Why Try is Bumble B's Husband...

He didn't turn around until she let go and took a hard stance. She was on here for months and months with barely any movement in him. Finally you can see her letting go and then finally she DID let go.

He then came on here and didn't tell us who he was. He wouldn't even say if he was a man or woman for awhile.

He even commented on her thread acting as if he was just another BS. He KNEW it was her. That was her last response that I know of right before his comment.

She went all that time taking the slow and easy approach and slowly she got stronger and started to let go.
Once she started to tire of it and REALLY LET GO, he turned around FAST. Read their threads and see for yourself.

Last I knew, he was STILL trying to win her back and she is still wanting out, but hasn't left. Total turnaround in who wants the relationship and who doesn't.

It may be too late. It also may not be too late.

Just my opinion.

Quote:

I recommend coming down HARD AND FAST when there is a definite PA or EA, the betrayed spouse knows, the wayward spouse KNOWS that you know, and then they are unrepentant/in-your-face about it. Because in those situations, a lot of damage can be done by the entitlement-fueled wayward spouse, and they will also rapidly lose respect (and therefore attraction, and therefore LOVE) when they perceive the betrayed spouse's "standing" as a sign of WEAKNESS.

I agree with that Starsky.
I would also say that there are some Waywards who lie and hide the fact they are interested in someone else and/or are having an affair. They keep the BS hanging for months on end. Many will NEVER admit it until finally getting caught and even then, some will keep denying while the BS keeps giving them the benefit of the doubt.. Time after time after time.

I find many BS's almost helping the WS hide the affair because what they don't know doesn't hurt them and also if they don't know, they come to the conclusion that means there is no affair. I think it is hiding one's head in the sand. They take the no snooping to the opposite extreme. They refuse to even consider any evidence..............

So whether they know for sure there is an affair or whether they don't know for sure there is an affair, doesn't mean there isn't one going on. Affairs thrive on secrecy. Some allow it to go on because of the fear of knowing the truth and maybe aren't ready to handle it. I can't tell you (and I am sure you know too, Starsky) how many people on this site alone that I have heard say their spouse is not having an affair, only to learn later (and sometimes months and months later) that they were indeed wrong. They are then thrown back to square one emotionally and feel like they have to start all over with the whole process, which could have been avoided by finding out what you are up against right from the start instead of taking all the blame the WS throws at you for months on end only to realize some of it is a smokescreen for them having an affair by throwing the guilt on the BS and their supposed failures.

Gah, so I must confess that I had a setback last night. H has the kids this week and I was supposed to take them last night but I was feeling guilty about all the back and forth we are putting them through so I told H that he can just keep them instead of bringing them back to me in the am. He was at the house when I got home, mowed the lawn for me and somehow suddenly I was really overcome with sadness. The tears started coming and I quickly walked away but he saw. He asked me what's wrong and I just said "there's just a lot going on" (not just H but my Dad's illness too, H is aware of this). I said that I would be ok and that was about it.

After he left I went out with a friend, we had a good evening out to eat, drinks and then hung out on the beach chatting for a while. It was fun but I really need to branch out on my GAL --- too much eating and drinking!

So that's the latest

Have to see H for several hours tomorrow am for kids soccer. Determined to get my PMA back before then. Having dinner tonight with a friend who usually can get me feeling good --- she's awesome about helping me figure out how to deal with various things that are stressing me.

Have, HAVE to get up early tomorrow and make myself go for a run. Since I have been so tired lately I've been neglecting it but it's such a good pick me up I really need to make sure it happens before seeing H tomorrow.

Been documenting finances more closely and unfortunately it's not looking good. It's amazing all the little things you don't think of that I spend money on. I still want to figure out a way to make finances work if I end up here alone --- thinking of becoming a couponer! I know it wouldn't necessarily make a huge dent but it might be enough to take the edge off, if anyone has tips please let me know.

Mdu I have been couponing for about 7 years... not to be conceited but I am GOOD at it.... I sell to friends/family/have yard sales and before Lilly (aka more time) I would average making about $300 in PROFIT every month plus all my food/household/personal care items free.....

It takes more effort than a lot of people realize, but so worth it. Right now I spend about $100 a month for all groceries/household/personal care. And we eat lots of fresh fruits/veggies and I cloth diaper so lots of Tide being used.

What I tell everyone is "think outside the box, just because you don't use an item doesn't mean you won't need a coupon for it"

Example.....
Minute Maid refrigerated drinks, there is $1 off of 2 coupon and when you buy 4 at Wal-Mart for $1.25 each you will pay $3 and then text your receipt with the minute maid circled and the word minute maid in the caption to 811811
You will then get a $5 Wal-Mart egift card. You can do this 5x

So you paid $3 and got $5 back, then donate the beverage to a soup kitchen and take the tax write off........

Twin,

Gosh darn it! Just reading about your couponing activities is giving a headache already. Cannot understand extreme couponers...that's outside of my realm period. I just don't have it in me to do this.

Wonka, it started as a challenge for me... to see how good I could be and then it became my job when I quit doing therapy to stay home with the twins. I love it.
I bought over $200 in vitamins (ocean blue brand omega 3) and that allowed me $175 in "overage" to buy milk(freeze extra) eggs, coffee creamer, cheese sticks, tuna, frozen pizza, toilet paper, pistachios, walnuts, and lots of other things that are usually expensive.
I then donate the vitamins or sell some for super cheap and make my $$....

It gets easier the longer you do it. DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT just read coupon blogs and do what they say. Understand WHAT you are doing and why and understand store policies.

Holy cow twinmom! I need couponing 101. How do you suggest getting started?

I a bit intrigued by the challenge, I must say..

Spent pretty much the whole morning with H. The kids both had soccer. We sort of danced around each other, sometimes chatting and smiling a lot but then other times keeping a big distance.

H said to me: "With the breeze I keep smelling your perfume, it smells good."

He offered to do some bulk shopping for me today, he's going to one of those wholesale clubs.

When we were leaving he asked me if I wanted to go to lunch with them (he has the kids today). I ask no, but thanks for asking. I feel a bit odd doing stuff with kids at this stage, given how far back we seem to have slid and are still barely beginning to regain our footing. Although I must say that I left the soccer field and got in the car and cried. I miss my family.

I am a little concerned about saying 'no' to H's invite to lunch. I didn't really explain that I feel like he and I should probably spend a bit of time just us before pulling the kids back in again. Should I clarify this with him? Thoughts?

Nope. Feels like pressure and R talk.

It's *good* to decline an invitation every once in a while. Because you're a busy gal who's a little mysterious and GAL. Remember???

Keep things light and breezy. No heavy stuff. This isn't the time.

Does anyone else get a perverse satisfaction out of watching movies about infidelity...where the wayward spouse and OM/OW get totally screwed in the end?

yes.

Definitely!

Hell yeah!

I do love a good karma winning story.

Ooo, what movies? I haven't seen any like that but it even sounds good. Btw, I love your thread mdu. I read here every day to keep some hope going.

Thx Bunches

Fatal Attraction is particularly gratifying at the end

There was a cheesy TV movie I watched the other night called Betrayed where the H had an affair with his wife's best friends daughter. His world didn't implode quite as much as he deserved but some.

The Other Woman, whish is relatively new, is HILARIOUS. The wife actually teams up with OW (who is duped as well bc she doesn't know she's an OW) and gets back at the H. I've watched it like 4 times.

H invited me to the beach again today with the kids. I said no again. I actually have legit plans, friend coming over to help me trim some hedges.

So that's basically the 3rd time he's invited me to do something and I've declined. Two beach invites and lunch yesterday. Should I invite him to do something at this point or continue to let it be? Of course I did initiate the hockey thing but left before we actually got to spend any time together.

Thoughts?

In think that any time you can spend happy time together is a good thing and don't understand why you keep refusing.

mdu,

Just my .02: I say go for it.

You had a legitimate reason not to be able to hang today; you had plans. Don't stress over it.

I would also encourage you (again) not to fret over a possible negative impact to the kids re: you guys hanging as a family. Carve out time when possible to spend with H, sure. But the family is a dynamic I'm betting he's missing. So I think you should feel free to pitch an idea that involves all of you.

Unbidden, I think mdu is trying to make sure cake eating doesn't happen and trying to create a slight sense of mystery while keeping her pma up. It seems her pma takes a nosedive when spending too much time together.

Mdu, good for you! I would think maybe something asking the lines of the hockey game would be good (but I am no expert) a little bit of time together but without expectations

^^^ Good stuff, twin.

K, thanks everyone. I guess I'm hesitating around doing things with H primarily because of the whole pursuit/distance dynamic. I want to be sure I don't present myself as just waiting around for him to spend time with me. Also, I'm working on being more patient. Especially once we hang out together I want him home and I want it NOW. I'm trying to force myself to slow it down.

But I've got some things cookin (literally and figuratively)...

H will be dropping off the kids shortly after their day at the beach. I have lentil soup cooking (which he loves and makes the house smell yummy) and will invite him to eat --- or at least take some home with him.

Also, the kids both have school appointments on Wednesday. I'm not sure if he is going but if he does I think we have a bit of a break in between appts so I will suggest we get a little lunch in between if we have time.

Had a really good, productive day so far. Went for a run, did a bunch of errands then my friend came over to help me in the yard. We hit some road blocks --- found a giant wasps nest right where we were hoping to do some pruning! --- but now that she's advised me what to do I'm psyched to handle it on my own once I conquer the wasps nest. Yet another adventure!

H dropped the kids off and had a bowl of soup. We did not sit down all together to eat bc kids were bathing and not yet hungry but H at least had some. We chatted a bit but he did not hang around long.

Interestingly, he mentioned that everyone in his family went out to dinner last night to say good-bye to his eldest daughter who is headed back to college. He said he would have invited me but felt uncomfortable after I said no to going to lunch yesterday. I think I have to be careful about possibly sending him mixed messages and maybe should accept offers unless I really, truly have a conflict.

He seemed a bit off but frankly, I'm feeling a bit tired and probably come off as a little 'off' myself. He sent me a text after leaving thanking me again for the yummy soup.

Overall, not fantastic but basically a good encounter.

mdu...

I think you should treat husband as though he is someone you want to be with...

Would you refuse a date with someone you wanted to be with?

and there is no need to create a mystery....do you want your husband to think that you have plans with someone else?

why play that game?

b available if you are available and be busy if you are busy...

mdu, that was my point above, although I did not say it well. I think you want to give him the impression that you are happy and happy to be with him and happy spend time with him and to build a new relationship with new, positive memories. Men don't like to feel rejected and I don't think the pursuit issue applies in your context right now in a sort of pre-pieceing or re-piecing stage. Figgeroni said it way better than I did.

You are on the right track, I think, with the cooking and lunch ideas.

I'm with Fig here, MDU.

Do you want to re-attract H or repel him?

He noticed your perfume!!! Jiminy Cricket....focus, focus!

mdu, how are you holding up?

Horrible night. Everyone get your 2x4s ready. I know they are coming.

I asked H about doing an in home separation last night. He balked. I was not happy. I don�t understand why he says he wants to work on the M but still won�t fully recommit. I said some things that I shouldn�t have said. I am fed up, I feel like the kids are suffering and I am left holding the bag because I am taking the brunt of the fallout. He just doesn�t see it --- or want to see it --- or care.

Although much of the conversation was contentious there were also moments of connection and honesty. He admitted that he still has feelings for OW. It hurts so much to know that. I have been crying much of the night because of it. But at least he was honest. It seems so crazy to me that it was supposedly just a 4 month affair but now SIX months after they broke up he�s still not over her. Is this normal? He said that he has been seeing an IC and that the thing that has thrown him for the biggest loop in all of this is seeing changes I�ve been making to help our M, especially after what he�s done.

We talked some about the fact that everything went South once OW moved closer. He, of course, has absolutely nothing negative to say about her and the fact that she did that knowing we were trying to work on our M. I think her behavior has bunny boiler written all over it. We both agreed that we�ve been avoiding discussing things since that happened which is very bad because that�s what got our M into trouble in the first place.

I told him that I am very frustrated being separated because I don�t feel like it really gives us much chance to work on the M. We don�t really conflict much while separated, we agree on the kids, there are no issues with money, we agree on house items. I said we are not facing the daily in your face grind that got our M into trouble in the first place. The days of coming home upset about work and taking it out on each other. Or getting so fed up with the kids and then arguing. He thinks that we can still work on the M while separated and maybe we can *some* but I really don�t think we can seriously until we�re under the same roof.

In the end I told him that I am not initiating things anymore, that if he wants to fix all this he has to step up and show some initiative. So I guess now I�m going dark, or as dark as you can with kids. I really need to get some space from him, I am in so much pain, it feels like this nightmare is never going to end.

Sweetie,

No 2x4. So you and H had a R talk. I hope you got some valuable information tucked away in your mind.

I do see a lot of positives here. Allow me to list them here:

-H talked with you about R
-H did not run away
-H opened up about the OW (a first...right?)
-H feels not ready to move back in the house yet (that's fine)
-H SAID HE'S WILLING TO WORK ON THE M WHILE SEPARATED

That last one is a biggie! I'd grab it and hold it in my heart with faith that it'll all work out. Focus on this going forward. He is receptive to it! Wow. That's huge.

I asked H about doing an in home separation last night. He balked. I was not happy. I don�t understand why he says he wants to work on the M but still won�t fully recommit.

Yes, you do understand but I think your fears are blocking you from actually seeing the why behind this. H is feeling gun shy because of your mouth. It will take consistent actions and changes to show him that you're an oasis of serenity. Also it takes a while for the WAS to work through their issues and their old perceptions of the M.

Mainly all of their fear from what I've read here over the years is this:

Afraid of going back to the M and finding it is the same ole, same old thing.

He admitted that he still has feelings for OW. It hurts so much to know that. I have been crying much of the night because of it. But at least he was honest. It seems so crazy to me that it was supposedly just a 4 month affair but now SIX months after they broke up he�s still not over her.

I am not surprised at all. Many of the WAS' experience withdrawals and this particular withdrawal is being prolonged by the fact that the XOW moved into the offices. If I remember correctly, Starsky reported that it took 12 to 18 months before he and Mrs. Starsky finally settling in the M after she broke off with her XOM.

You're doing need to dig deep for patience. I can send you a special delivery of a gold plated shovel for more patience.

I told him that I am very frustrated being separated because I don�t feel like it really gives us much chance to work on the M.

You might want to change your perception here. You might want to view it as a golden opportunity to build up on the positives while you are separated and will draw H slowly back to you (and back in the house). It is your impatience that's tripping you up. Look at H as a new boyfriend and that you're in the courting phase.

You are re-learning about each other and getting to know each other. With that approach, I believe you and H will be reconciled.

What you've done over the past 1 to 2 months has been WORKING like a charm. Just not on your illusive timetable. Jettison whatever timetable you have in your head and just ENJOY the process as a courting couple.

He thinks that we can still work on the M while separated and maybe we can *some* but I really don�t think we can seriously until we�re under the same roof.

You're so dug in on this POV that you continue to do this at your own peril and the M's peril. Girl, you need to be more flexible and just allow the process to unfold naturally. Your fears and anxieties are really hurting you.

We've seen many, many marriages restored while the couple were separated. You can do this too, MDU!!! light, soft bop on your head

In the end I told him that I am not initiating things anymore, that if he wants to fix all this he has to step up and show some initiative.

I don't think it was the right thing to say as it came out of sheer frustration and pain.

As MDW says in her good book, continue doing what works and stop going down cheeseless tunnels.

You've done such a great job in the last 1 to 2 months and I honestly & genuinely believe that you are drawing H back to you.

And now you throw up your arms and act like a petulant child in the sandbox throwing out her toys because the other child didn't do what you expected and wanted.

So going forward, I suggest that you do the following:

1) Focus on the positives and make a note of them in your solutions journal
2) Continue doing what works (baking, perfume, accepting H's invitations)
3) Be light and breezy around H
4) Give your fears, anxieties and frustrations the stiff arm
5) Order 2 to 3 cases of STFU juice from the Wonka Factory

It is okay to take a break and get some space for a while to regain your balance and center. Then go back on the DB wagon with Starsky, Train, Wonka, and others circling you as your MDU Brigade.

Thank u so much Wonka. You are simply amazing.

I second it!

We love Wonka!

mdu---I am following along with you and for what it's worth, I think you're doing great considering what/who you've got to work with. (Hahah

)

I agree with Wonka that your H is making some big strides.

Sure, they're bogged down in OW weirdness, his personal issues... but he's in counseling, he's talking.

That's a big plus.

Like Wonka said, hold onto the POSITIVES.

Feel the pain, have a good cry, then try and refocus on what's going right.

(Now if I could just take my own advice.,, I'm working on that!)

---GGG

Thx GG! I appreciate the support.

Unless I've misinterpreted your post, mdu, I saw negativity but no outbursts? Am I right? If I am, that's progress! Don't turn back now!

Oh no, unfortunately I yelled a few times Barrybran

I'm still really frustrated by the whole thing and honestly not sure what to do about the kids. I could use some advice/opinions.

I asked for an in house separation because I am concerned about the continued back and forth with the new school year. D4 starts K and as any parent knows that's a big transition. H is staying at FILs which is where the kids visit with him about 40% of the time. It's in another town and doesn't have a bed for each of them. H and S7 end up sleeping together. I was ok with this arrangement temporarily --- and thru the summer --- but now that it's apparently going to drag on for a while and school is starting I don't feel very good about it at all. In addition to D4 starting K, I'm worried about S7 who has always struggled in school. He has been coming home from visits with H tired, I assume due to the sleeping arrangement. Also, they will have less time in the evenings to do HW and unwind since H gets out of work later and has to travel further to get to FILs house. This is also a potential big issue for S7 because he takes FORVER to do his HW and reading.

What should I do?

Why don't you ask H what is thoughts are about the kids issue, calmly? I think if you look deep inside you would likely have to admit that your frustration is not really with this scheduling issue but the whole scenario and that the kids schedule, while not ideal, is a proxy for pushing for reconciliation or living together again. No fault in that. It's probably better if everyone were under the same roof but that's not the case now. Tomorrow things maybe different but they are not different today. So what is the best that can be done for your children as things stand today? Ask yourself what that is and do that. This is the point where you really have to give up trying to control H and the situation. It hasn't worked thus far. Let it go. Things will not be perfect right now and you can't really know that spending time with H at your FIL's during the school year would be the worst thing for your children. You really can't.

Probably the best thing is if S7 at least had a bed. And H could try to get out of work early enough so they can get home at a decent hour when he has them

What you think about how things are 'supposed to be' at FIL's house is just that....trying to control things at the other house. As long as the kids are safe, fed, bathed, and dressed...that is all you can really count on.

What the kids do at their Dad's place is his to own.

Focus on what you can do at your house. You can provide the structure, routine and ensure that the kids do their homework, etc when they are at your house.

You might want to talk with the school counselor at S7 school about his tiredness. Get him/her involved and ask for ideas on how to work with this issue for S7.

Generally I agree with u Wonka. But fact is around here --- and I did confirm with a lawyer & social worker ---- H's current arrangement would not fly in court if I were to challenge it. Kids are expected to at a minimum have a bed at the OPs house as well as a bit of their own space. H should seriously accommodate these basic conditions if he wants to continue the present arrangement.

You would want to approach this with sensitivity, MDU. H would not want to feel that you are critical or criticizing his parenting skills. Which is why I suggested that you talk with his school counselor to get some ideas and it would help you in that he cannot really target you.

Then after you speak with the school counselor, ask him/her to call H for a family meeting at the office. This way, it will be on neutral ground and you two will be able to discuss ways to support S7 and D4.

I am sure Starsky, Train, and others who are parents will chime in with ideas and suggestions.

One final thing...be sure to drink STFU juice if or when you do meet at the school counselor's office about H moving back home as the solution to S7's sleep issues (and other school-related matters).

Spoke to H & he agreed to give S7 his own bed to see if that helps with sleep. Then we both started bawling over the whole sitch.

Not a light nor breeze in sight.

I had to get off the phone, I was too upset.

Then we texted a bit. He texted he did not want to lose me. I asked him how we can fix this. He texted I am not sure exactly.

MDU,

It seems that you handled S7's sleep problems really well. Kudos!

H said he's afraid to lose you...wow. That is a biggie in my book. Slow and steady.

I'd suggest that you call a DB Coach for some advice, if you are able to do so. To me, I'd suggest the following:

-Book an appointment with a solution-oriented MC who follows the Gottman principles
-Book the two of you to attend Retrouaville
-Slow and steady

It took a long time for your M to fall apart and it will take equally as long as it takes to re-build it. One step at a time.

I agree with Wonka (how can I not?!)! Slow and steady.

I'm desperate to hear the words "I don't want to lose you". Relish in those words. Cry all you need to. You are facing a lot but Wonka's suggestions are awesome. Breathe and stay on your path.

(((hugs)))

Thx Ss06!

Wonka, should I suggest these ideas to H or wait for him to suggest? I mean MC is a no brainer...it worries me a bit that he's not initiating that, kwim? I don't want him to just go along for the ride & waste our time & money!

MDU,

I would suggest that you give this a rest for a week to allow you two to adjust from the talks you've had lately. Take a breather to get yourself centered.

Let me ask you a question.

-What has been the dynamic in the M when it comes to making appointments?

-What did you and H do in the past when it came to issues that needed to be decided jointly?

It would be helpful to give some background information here. We need to understand the dynamic better. This way, we will be able to give you some ideas and suggestions.

I tell people here in DB land that we are miles, miles ahead of the WAS and we need to be their mentor/wing man. We have developed, hopefully, the proper skill set and tools gleaned from DBing and reading a bazillon books recommended here.

Let's face it: We are at the Advanced Calculus level and they are stuck at the 3rd grade math level.

It is okay to show them the way ahead and not expecting too much for the WAS to take the initiative. Once you get the ball rolling, they will catch up.

Wow, thank goodness for Wonka. I hope you're around when/if my relationship turns for the better. The above advice is AWESOME!

Thx Wonka! A week break sounds good. I am emotionally spent right now.

In the past when it came to appointments I think it was probably 50/50. Like I would make an appointment for something related to the kids or finances (I'm more into long term financial planning) but he would make appointments for home maintenance stuff.

For issues that needed to be decided jointly, I would almost always be the one to get the conversation started and then generally we were pretty good about compromising. Even if things started out contentious we usually came out ok in the end. Although I have to say in the last 2 years or so there were a few tough issues that we could not seem to come to a compromised agreement on --- then we started avoiding.

MDU,

Thanks for the background information. Here's a suggestion:

-You conduct some research on solution-based MC therapists in your area and print off their contact info

-You print out info on Retrouville

Sometime next week, you can approach H and say let's work together on finding some common solutions in addressing our marital issues.

Then present him the print outs. Ask open ended questions if he would like to participate by calling Retrouaville himself and making arrangements to attend their sessions.

Then you handle MC appointment. You would want to take care of the MC because of your DB experience here and others can chime here in on what to look for in a MC.

This way, it is a win-win for the two of you in that you are being accountable together in addressing your M issues and working toward a better relationship.

The end result is that you allow H to step up as a partner and feel invested in the process. For sure, it'll help his self-confidence a bit. Try to let H take the lead sometimes here, ok? He will not feel so hopeless seeing this action from you.

And don't jump on him if he doesn't go for it. No expectations :-)

Thx Barrybran! Good reminder. I am still worried about where H is really at. He continues to say promising things but really not initiating much action. I let it disappoint me horribly every time. I do need to work on getting my expectations in check. I have a really hard time with this -- obviously

Unfortunately I have let myself get into quite the funk. H dropped off the kids early this am & I was still in bed. I know it was probably not good for H to see me that way but truly I desperately needed the extra sleep. The ADs seem to have leveled my mood some but really messed up my sleep. Still trying to figure how with my doc how to make them work well for me. The kids have some neighbor friends over. I am using the time to relax & recoup, trying to get back on track. It's a constant struggle

Wonka & other optimists

I really am frustrated by H's continued proclamations along the lines of wanting to work things out but not taking any ACTIONS. Isn't this a major red flag? This has pretty much been the pattern with him for the past 6 months, ie since I found out about the A.

That's the most confusing statement ever: "let's work things out but not take any action". I don't know if it's a red flag (reminder: I'm not a vet!!) but maybe he's just interested in the status quo? Like work things out without changing current living arrangements, etc? I don't know. I'd flat out ask what the heck he means by that. I don't think you're expected to read minds and assuming is super dangerous as this venture. Ask. Can't hurt, might help.

"hey, what'd you mean by "let's work things out but not take action"? I just want to make sure I'm clear on it and really understand your words."

nothing wrong with that, right?

I for one don't think you're being unfair in wanting more from him at this point, mdu. "Light and breezy" only gets you so far; at SOME point he's going to need to step up and put his big-boy britches on.

Only you can know when you're truly at that point, but sometimes I think we're babying him a bit here, to be honest.

Does that make me a pessimist? Or a realist?

I do think he's made some progress here, but your own temperament and needs DO need to be factored in. I've seen some rare people do the "standing" thing for 1, 2, 3 years even longer. You just don't strike me as a good candidate for that.

And that's ok.

Starsky

I'm probably not the optimist called for here, but I'll give my .02

:

DB is about doing what works. "Light and breezy" continues to "work" to start re-attracting Mr. mdu. But at least from where I sit, it seems every time he draws closer, a decision is made to hurry things along. And that adds pressure to him. He backs off. And mdu, you feel sucker-punched and have to start back near Square One with your PMA and GAL. (Fwiw, I don't doubt at all that ADs may make GAL more difficult for a while; from what I understand, they do cause fatigue in a lot of cases.)

I don't know that I'd agree that we are babying H here. But I *do* think MWD says "do what works," "monitor results," and if one thing is working - and something else isn't - do the thing that works.

To be honest, I don't think "light and breezy" is at fault here. Because that's what's working. It hasn't brought H to some immediate realization that he wants back in the M, but it has drawn him closer. Then comes the pressure. And THAT, IMO, is not working. I don't think "light and breezy" has been executed consistently over a nice duration of time to know how H may eventually respond.

But I think every time it starts working and then you pull on that line prematurely, he's going to start catching on a little more that the "new mdu" is just temporary. It's pretend. And the pressure is coming. My *fear* (though some may argue that anything that comes from a place of fear should be ignored) is that if this continues to be the cycle, H will finally just stop nibbling.

Consistency is key; "changes he can believe in." I haven't seen it yet from this side of the computer screen. Which means I'm sure H hasn't seen it either.

Sorry to be such a crappy mean poopy head, mdu.

I agree that my lack of consistency is my reactions to him is a factor. But I also think that a huge factor (I think bigger) is OW now in his face at the office. And I just don't see how we're going to overcome that. I had hoped that her close presence would somehow make it all more 'real' and maybe make him feel pressure and kill some feelings but apparently that's not the case. I am really disheartened and don't know how we will ever deal with this except for H leaving the company which he won't do. I suppose I could force his hand and perhaps he would agree to find another job but that would take time regardless (quitting without something else in place just seems foolish) and I suspect he would resent the heck out of it.

I would feel better if we were at least going to MC or Retrouvaille or something to actually be working on the M. At least that would feel like some sort of real progress to me and then maybe we could talk more frankly about this work situation.

I get the sense that he's waiting for feelings which just aren't going to come consistently any time soon, esp with OW in his face (I suspect they come sparatically when he warms to me). I am frustrated because I believe he just needs to commit, regardless of how he *feels* right now.

I hate this mess. Yes, we had some serious M issues but OW makes it impossible.

MDU,

You're spinning big time. What did I say about taking a breather to re-gain your center? Focus on this for ONE week, baby.

And yes the impossible has happened! I've seen sitches where the OW is in H's company/offices and the posters have DB'd the affair all because they re-attracted their spouses.

Ye of so little faith...

I have EVERY faith in you, MDU.

Why don't you take a break from the boards from tonight until after Labor Day? I double-dare you!!

You're giving OW wayyyyy too much power, mdu - far more than she deserves ... and clearly far more than H is giving her since he's still warming to YOU.

I agree with Wonka: you're spinning.

Reach down deep and find you again. We know you're in there.

Train hit the nail on the head. You're drawing him in with light and breezy and pushing him away with outbursts when he doesn't respond according to your timetable. My wife hugged me for the first time in seven months yesterday. Seven months! I'm not going to push her though because I know where that will land me and I've made far too much progress on myself. She'll come closer when she's ready.

Your husband is the same. He's approaching you with caution and backing off when you bite him. To say that he doesn't want to lose you is huge. Yes, it's lip service and there will be a time for action on his end. He needs to feel confident that you won't have an outburst whenever something doesn't go your way first. In the meantime, you need to get yourself to a point where you're comfortable and strong whether he's there or not, whether something good or bad happens.

Thanks everyone.

You are right, I have really lost my way. Regardless of what I decide in terms of how to proceed with H I really need to get myself in a better place again before I do anything. More sleep is definitely in order...even if medication is required to make it happen. And exercise and healthy food.

I am going to take your dare, Wonka, and stay off the boards until after labor day! And when I get back on I'm going to report all sorts GAL and PMA

I have been wallowing (and spinning), enough is enough.

Attagirl, mdu.

Hugs are very different. Hugs are based on FEELINGS, which can take MONTHS to return. Patience is called for.

Marital commitment is a DECISION. mdu is right to insist that her husband -- having expressed WORDS that he wants to make it work -- show ACTIONS that show commitment to begin working on the marriage.

I will admit that such insistence could also drive him away, if he's not ready for such a commitment. For me, I was okay with that. My wife's feelings took several months to begin to come back, and nearly TWO YEARS to fully return. However, she did several other things to show her COMMITMENT to the marriage. A Retrovaille weekend. MCing with me. Full transparency. A no-contact letter to her OM. She probably didn't FEEL like doing ANY of those things. But they were boundaries for me, she understood that clearly, and -- to her credit -- she stepped up to the plate.

I think if mdu raised the bar, mr. mdu would respond positively.

Just my opinion.

Starsky

This is a question... There was a text that she said how do we fix this and he said I'm not sure. What if he was sincere, he lacks relationship skills, really doesn't know, and is too manly or whatever to be vulnerable enough to find out? What if he's hoping to get by solving the problem without having to really dig deep because he has just enough self-awareness to know it's going to hurt but not enough to do the work?

Is that possible, and does that change anything?

I guess I'm playing devil's advocate a little and also that I agree with Train's assessment.

Good point, Maybell. My H would say something like "I'm not sure" and honestly have NO IDEA how. He doesn't read books. He's not big on therapy. He doesn't know about relationship retreats and whatnot. He has NO clue. Maybe Mr. MDU is similar?

K, so I was committed to staying away from the boards until after labor day but then something that seems possibly significant occurred. So I thought I better post..

H came by this evening to pick up the kids to take them school shopping. We both looked at each other, kind of sad. He gave me a very gentle and sweet 'Hi', blinking back tears. Then he did something that he has not done since OW moved closer, he gave me a big hug and a kiss. It was delightful. I told him he looked handsome.

So now, I'd say more than ever, I need to step back and STFU. I've thought a lot about forcing his hand, as Starsky mentions too, and I still may at some point. But boy, it seems like it would be so much better in the long run if it came from him. So I'm going to try to hold out some more.

Say a little prayer for me that I can keep my balance and center; you all know how whenever he makes a move I start freaking and yanking on him to move it along!

It is a really sweet interaction with H.

Now back to your real-life GAL.

And shut that nagging little ego inside your head feeding you evil thoughts about "forcing his hand" at some point. Shut down that silly and stupid innner voice. It's done you no good at all.

Back to the program of doing what has been WORKING. Go back to the list I wrote out for you. Read it 100x before bed and again in the morning.

H is your new boyfriend now. Treat him like one.

Oh, there's no doubt about it, Starsky: you KNOW I agree with your overall position. NO doubt.

I also believe mr. mdu can be influenced to sh!t or get off the pot. But (again, from where I sit) I'm not sure *mdu* is quite at the point of being able to get *herself* in the position to move in that direction, though I do see some indications she's getting there. (Sorry for not speaking to you directly here, mdu, but you're off the boards for a couple days, right?!?)

I think, even with the dual-track approach, that it's best for a woman to be laid back, easy-going and even a little flirty in face-to-face interactions when possible and appropriate ... especially once the WAS seems interested in working things out. I also believe a little "mystery" is beneficial.

IMO, if you can hold off on trying to rush things once H nibbles on the line, mdu - and if you can do this CONSISTENTLY - we will have a better handle on this situation in just a couple months. And I think mr. mdu will start to drive the ship a little; he's already proven he can and *will* when he responds to mdu's "light and breezy" by asking her to join the family on beach trips ... or asking her why she didn't stay after the hockey game. But each time he makes a move forward, I think what freaks him out the most - mdu's "control" and outbursts in the relationship - freaks him out ALL OVER AGAIN, and he backs way off. It would freak me out, too, if I was trying to test the waters of my M.

I'm not sure WHAT boundaries mdu could/should put in place; her situation is different than mine in that mr. mdu says he wants to work on things and has ended things with OW. My H was just a prick through it all. But I *do* think there's a way to thread the needle where mdu can be light and breezy and also give off the impression that she's moving on. She, in fact, accomplishes just that each time she chooses to GAL and focus on her own journey. Her PMA - even here on the boards - skyrockets. But it's never consistent. I think the road to possible-piecing in this case will BEGIN when mdu's expectations and rushing END.

I hope all that makes sense.

I just think mr. mdu is ABLE to bite ... but he hasn't seen the *consistent* changes he needs to commit to said bite.

Oops. I took too long to post (on my freaking phone) so I missed the new posts. Ugh.

I don't have any real input but I'm really excited for you that things are looking well.

Your sitch helps me believe there is always hope.

Some very interesting developments in my sitch!

Yesterday, I had some people over for a labor day BBQ. Had a blast but drank WAY too much. At the end of the evening I texted H to find out when he was coming over in the AM (today is D4�s first day of Kindergarten). He did not respond for a long time. Unfortunately I started freaking out, the alcohol definitely did not help. I called and texted a bunch of times. This had disaster written all over it.

Finally, he calls back. Despite my freaking, he�s extremely apologetic. He says he totally gets why I am freaking out and he felt terrible for not seeing my texts. He says he is on is way over to the house right now! He comes over and miraculously I don�t go off on him, I am totally chill. We end up talking about the affair, about OW now being in his office, about repairing our marriage.

I ask him why everything took such a negative turn after OW moved to his office. He said he was just totally freaked out and wasn�t sure how it would be. He shared that he called her and spoke to her after he found out she was moving --- asked her WTH she was doing. She said that they offered for her to work in his office and since it was so much shorter of a commute it would be crazy to refuse. I did not freak out AT ALL when he told me he called her. I don�t know, somehow it seemed really clear that he did not want to be with her anymore. The whole mess is just so clearly not worth it.

Then he confessed that he has a work outing that she will likely be at next week. Again, I was totally chill. I told him �I just need you to tell me everything, we can get through this if you are completely honest�. He said �I know�. Then he told me that he has another work outing the week after. I asked him �What does that have to do with OW?� and he said �Nothing, I just thought you should know.�

I talked about taking ADs and how I�ve struggled with adjusting to them and sleep issues. He cried and apologized for doing this to me and how much it has affected me. I actually wasn�t sharing to get that reaction out of him but I�ll admit, it was nice to see remorse.

I asked him how he�s doing. He said he�s really busy at work which is a good distraction but that he is really not doing very well. He obviously feels horrible about himself, about what he has done. He cried. I held his hand and told him it would be ok. He said that he�s working with IC to try to understand why he made such a hideous choice, why he kept it going and allowed himself to get so deep when he had 1000 opportunities along the way to just put an end to it.

Despite my freak out moments since BD basically he has been utterly amazed at how good I have been to him through all this, that I still even want him anymore. I told him that I�ve always loved him.

Amazing!

Who would have thought drinking would be a good 180? Kidding. Congratulations on not going off

You gave him a chance to talk, you listened and now you KNOW he's not interested in OW because he had a chance to finish without being jumped on. That is an awesome interaction, mdu. I hope you feel good about what you've achieved by remaining calm. You're all over this!

Thx so much Barrybran.

He was at the house this am to see the kids off for first day of school and there's a definite shift between us. He gave me a big hug and kiss good-bye. Cleaned the kitchen for me, offered to take S7 to soccer practice tonight.

Amazing, we'll see if it all sticks but this time does feel different, like he's really, really coming back finally. And I still feel pretty chill, not ansy or pushy at all..

Just remember that he'll come back in his own time. No expectations.

Will do Barrybran.

I think it will help that school has started. The routine is good for all of us and there's not a lot of free time to fret.

H dropped off S7 after soccer and lingered for quite a while. He gave me a hug and kiss again when he left. For the moment, I am content with where things stand.

H invited me to lunch on Friday. Things are definitely moving on a more positive path again.

And H invited me to a work function with him next week (no, OW won't be there!). A vendor he uses is hosting a dinner at a fancy hotel. Looking forward to it!

Oooh, a public outing relating to work This is NICE!!