Okay,
Looks like I'm on to the 5th chapter in my adventure. Look forward to hearing your input Wonka, and many thanks to Train and Starsky. Great plan and support for raising the issue. Once I see Wonka's comments, I'm going to chat with my W about the phone issue and I will post.
Here's the links to my previous threads:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2435361#Post2435361http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2447819#Post2447819http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2458498#Post2458498http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2466660#Post2466660Okay, should be good for another month now unless some serious action occurs. Thanks to everyone who posts and reads. It's truly appreciated.
Devaste
Halleujah, Dev!
Dev, I would err on the side of protecting your kids. Say something like "Look I'm only going to say this once, but it upsets the kids when you text OM where they can see you. What you do on your own time is your business, but I'm sure we can agree that we need to protect the kids thru this mess. And for GOD's sake, LOCK YOUR PHONE. NO child should have to read texts from their mother to her boyfriend."
I think this is not the way to go since the kids just inadvertently ran into W at the park. It is not like W knew the kids were going to be there and she's free to do whatever she likes with her smartphone. I would not tell W what Starsky suggested ^^ right there because it would come across as controlling to W.
I agree with Train on how to approach your kids about what they see W doing in an open and honest way that's age appropriate. You just cannot sweep things under and pretend that your kids don't notice. They're old enough to see what's going on and they're smart to know that W is seeing someone else who's not their father.
You've said no OM around you, around the house, or nearby you. This is should be between adults. You cannot control if W has the OM around the kids. I shudder to think of this!! Grrrrr.
That's my perspective on this matter.
I read this differently:
. I took my kids to the country fair where they inadvertently ran into their mom. They noticed from a distance their M texting on the phone, and my D asked who she's always texting. My older S said I know, and then told me the OM name. He had brought this up with me before, and asked that it be our secret.
That sounded to me like the kids were seeing the texting of OM -- and often -- before the happenstance observation at the fair. And furthermore it sounded to me like his son was upset about it.
Starsky
Yeah. I thought more on this last night. And today. I'm a little torn on it.
If I could do things over, I would have probably told my H that S8 was expressing concerns about the texts he was seeing ... and about watching H be obsessive in texting his new girlfriend. And as my son's mother, I would ask that H took all measures necessary to protect our son from the ugly reality of H and OW. (But I would have said this in an unemotional way; not using the word "ugly."
).
There's the issue of your W texting OM. You can't say crap about that, unfortunately, because she's a grown woman and that's her life. To try to interfere with that would be controlling. Which makes this a moot point because you already know it.
But then there's another issue: the kids. If the texting is bothering them to the point they are verbal with you about their hurt/anger? Yeah ... I think it's maybe time, as a parent, to step in if they are too young or intimidated to question/confront their own mom about it. You wouldn't be asking her not to text OM - just to take extra care to protect your children from seeing it or being around it.
I kinda wish I WOULD have had that convo with my H early on. And I sort of feel I contributed to my S8's exposure of the texts - and their content - because I *didn't*. But I know you aren't questioning (at least from what I'm reading) your kids' exposure to the actual texts, so take that into account with what I'm writing here.
I later told H not to text OW in front of or around the kids and me (thanks for helping me write that boundary, Wonka, when Starsky was away and left me to the sharks! .... Oh, relax, Starsky! I'm KIDDING!!!!
.)
But I wish I would have interjected before. I think - even when my H's brain was in LaLa Land, he still would have realized that the texting in front of the kids - and certainly leaving texts on the phone for S8 to see (especially considering the texts were X-rated, and we hadn't even had "the talk" with S8) - was not cool.
I just wanted to put my 2 cents in, I told h it upset s7 that we both spent time on our phones when he was around as it was taking time away from him, H actually listened and has made a conscious effort to not to text Fb talk to ow around s7. it took away the 'control' thing for me and put it squarely in H's court, and brought it back to being about kids best interests.
Starsky,
I now see what you mean when you put up that quote from Dev earlier. Yes, this does make a difference.
Train,
That is the boundary we worked on when we focused on around you and the kids at the marital home. Fortunately, it worked! In this case, Dev's wife is out of the house. So that is a bit more challenging.
Watto,
I think your approach probably would work best for Dev.
Just say that the kids have expressed concern about your wife spending too much time away from them with phones as it diverts her attention away from them. That way, you're not telling your wife not to text the OM, but rather frame it as the kids being bothered by it as they want to spend quality time with their mom.
Thanks Wonka, Starsky, Train, and Watto,
As you can imagine, I've given this some thought. I appreciate the input from everyone. I think I have decided that I will tell my W that the kids have expressed interest in both of us spending less time on our phones ( I don't use mind around kids anyways, but she doesn't need to know that). I'm going to say I'm going to work on that, she can do what she likes.
I will be direct and tell her our S8 is reading her texts and asked me about it, so she may want to change that, expressing my concern for our S, not trying to control her.
Thanks so much everyone for your insight and time. Not going to see her or communicate for two more days, so I can think about it still.
Cheers,
Dev
So a bit of an update,
The W and I met to plan the fall schedule and any kids activities. First half went well, we hammered out logistics. Then I asked how she was planning on getting kids to and from school, as she will be working full time almost. She suggested that she is planning on using the nanny. Calling her a shared family resource. I asked if she would be paying for the use of the nanny. This created a big financial discussion, which gravitated towards spousal support and fairness etc. mistake on my part to ask?
I then brought up the issue of the phone. I suggested myself first and said she was free to do as she pleased. I then mentioned that I want to keep the kids as stable as possible, and I mentioned that I would hope anyone they are introduced to would be serious. This was a mistake on my part. She then began down a road regarding controlling behaviour, how I demeaned and insulted her parenting, by even suggesting she would do something like that.
I reiterated that it was about the kids and she was free to do as she pleased, I just hoped we could both keep their best interests at heart. She started to talk about finances and spousal support etc. again. I believe from what she is saying, that she thinks she will get more money than she actually will, as I have done the numbers.
Either way, she is having lots of anxiety and fear about money, start of work, and her schedule. I feel I may have erred on the kids and OM comment. I get that I don't and can't control what she does with respect to the OM and my kids. Perhaps, and this is mind reading here, it touched a nerve, as I know OM has no interest in meeting the kids. Who knows. Keeping on the mind reading thread, I feel like my W wants the lifestyle she is accustomed too, but no part of a M with me. Hence her anxiety about money. She is also very scared of court. I told her my intention is not to vilify and destroy the M of my children, however, she does not believe me.
I am going to go even darker here. I asked her to please not come to the house and remove things when I am not here, to which she said she will come to the house until she is bought out. I just asked her to respect my space as I respect hers. This darkness which I have been doing, is actually, for me. I function much better with less interaction with her right now. She is so reactive that conversation is moot anyways. Constructive conversation.
I just STFU to the text barrage I received last night. No point in responding as nothing was urgent.
The journey continues. Keep my head up and focus on what I can truly control. Me.
Dev
Hi Dev,
We are in totally different situations, but I as one hurting man to another, I just wanted to extend a big hug. I wish I had experience or advice to share, but I'm on the other side of the coin here.
Hang in there,
DB
Thanks DBinSF,
Appreciate the wishes. I've been following your stitch. Good luck to you as well. It's truly a journey!
Dev
I feel like my W wants the lifestyle she is accustomed too, but no part of a M with me. Hence her anxiety about money.
To which Hamlet would say: "Aye, there's the rub."
In the same place, my friend. Our W's are headed for a grim financial situation of their own making, and yet we are to blame.
So true Zew,
Couldn't have put it better myself. Well I have fault with the destruction of our M, the choices she has made since the A discovery, are her own choices.
Easier to blame us as you noted. My W always talks about me using the words consequences or ramifications. It really makes her mad. Because there aren't any when this happens?
Dev
I should clarify, I don't go around saying "this is a consequence or this is a ramification". I know there is no point to doing this. Creating guilt does not solve my issues.
I said it one time many months ago, and anytime there is a discussion about an activity or something that needs to change, she brings it up again. Clearly that truth dart hit a nerve.....
Dev
Dev, yes using the word "consequences" has a lasting effect. My W saw it as a threat and even though I think I last said it about 6 months ago it still comes up. I remember on New Years Day when she had spent the Eve with OM I decided then and there to D her. I spent the first week of this year compiling the division of assets spreadsheet and it was not pretty on her side. (I had shown her a rough copy 3 days after I discovered the A in mid-Dec and she still refers to that.) Anyway, I cut her off from our joint credit card that week as well and made an apt with a D lawyer.
Well the following Saturday she comes home and says she wants to see if we can make it work. Within a couple of days she said she's going NC with OM and she booked an apt with our MC. So I told her I'll get her a new credit card and she couldn't believe I cut off her credit card. She took that as an act of aggression and punishment and pulled back heavily. So much so that she was in contact with the OM again within 2 weeks (so I discovered later). Now 8 months later she still occasionally brings up the credit card cut-off, the division of assets letter and the mention of consequences. Seems some things leave an indelible mark.
I have a feeling she's going to ask me to apologize for those things in writing. Although she hasn't really apologized for having an A. She has said she's sorry she hurt me. But everything in due course.
I agree, creating guilt doesn't solve anything. In fact I don't want my W back if she comes back out of guilt, duty, obligation or threat to her welfare. I only want her back of her own free will to engage in a mutually loving marriage with me. I've told her that. I've also told her our M is over. The old, broken M, that is. I would want nothing but a new M. A fresh start. And the door is open, but I can't promise it'll be open forever. (Although I haven't told her that last part about it not being open forever - she'd take that as a threat right now - baby steps).
Hang in there Dev. You're staying the course well.
Thanks Peter,
Exciting stuff going on for you! I'm hoping your letters addressing everything work out well! Make sure to keep your expectations in check.
Agree it's a common thread with respect to those words. The joint credit card was also cancelled in my stitch because mine was lost. A new one was not issued for her, and it still bothers her.
The process continues. My darkness continues. Hopefully some changes occur.
Dev
Dev,
Swinging by here....where's my Tarzan??!
Hey Wonka,
Been doing well. Really minimal contact with W after making the schedule last week. I'm still very torn. After discussing the phone issue she mentioned she wasn't sexting anymore the other day. She also has been impressed a few times buy what I am doing with the kids. However, she has given no signs of anything else, or of wanting to R.
As for me, the important part of this equation. I've adjusted back to work, gotten busy again, and been keeping my PMA going well. Tarzan has been working out a lot, and taking photography classes. Sporting seasons are about to start again.
Still a lot of sadness, but I realize lots is out of my control. Had a friend of a friend tell me that he knew, and that he was uncomfortable not telling me. Felt bad for me. The last thing I want. I don't want anyone feeling sorry for me, although the kind words are nice.
Really in a catch twenty two with respect to my stitch. Need to wait four more months to do anything because better financially, but may need to speed up process. With respect to moving forward, it may be helpful mentally I guess. And of course, in my dream world, anything can be reversed.
The one thing that sticks with me is to be the man no sane woman would want to leave. So now that some people know, I do have lots of interest from females, but of course I demur. And then I think, oh right, sane woman. I'm sorry that sounds bitter a bit. I fully accept responsibility for my mistakes in my M. I've worked hard to change myself with IC and reflective listening as well as reading several books. Learning is ongoing. The journey is never ending.
Thinking positively, Ms Dev hasn't sent me a text barrage for a week.....
Big weekend with the kids coming up here. I'll kept you posted
Cheers,and this one was a bit of a journal ramble :-)
Dev
Dev,
After discussing the phone issue she mentioned she wasn't sexting anymore the other day. She also has been impressed a few times buy what I am doing with the kids. However, she has given no signs of anything else, or of wanting to R. I'd be wary of W proclaiming that there's no sexting. Keep going with what you'be been doing and focusing on being the best father you can for the kids. Nice work! She's watching you from afar. Yessss...the WASes do pay attention to us. They are like poker players...they aren't showin their tells yet.
Need to wait four more months to do anything because better financially, but may need to speed up process.Wait for what? I am not understanding what you're alluding to here, Dev. You can call me Her Royal Denseness.
The one thing that sticks with me is to be the man no sane woman would want to leave.What does ^^ that look like to you?
Hey Wonka,
Been away for the weekend with my kids, and went "unplugged". Quality time with my kids keeps me going through this mess.
Thanks for the support with respect to continuing my actions with the kids, and being consistent with her. I agree to be wary about believing anything she says. I don't. She did get me a BD card, signed it love, and gave me a gift from the kids and a small token from her. It made me cry when I read it. I was upset with myself for crying in front of her, but hey I'm human. She asked if she could give me a hug. In a weak and vulnerable moment I accepted it. I do think it's positive that we have had no negative interactions. That being said, I'm really not reading anything into this.
My confusing line about needing to wait, has to do with the optimal time to file for D for me. Obviously, I'm not interested in doing that, but it appears she wants to pick things up, and get things done as fast as possible. I'm taking a slow and steady cautious approach.
With respect to being the man no woman would want to leave, the things I am working on right now, include being a great father, being a great listener, being active and involved in my kids lives, and being present. In the past I used to always be thinking about the future. Now I try to focus on enjoying and appreciating things as they occur, and making things occur more often. I am continuing to work on "saying what I mean". In the past I would try to limit pain to my W, so I would often do or say things that might not have been truly how I felt, but were designed to eliminate or reduce her discomfort.
Bottom line this created a disingenuous Dev. Now, I am genuine and comfortable with saying what I believe, and listening to the other side. I realize it's not imperative to agree, that the real success in a relationship is how compromise and negotiation occur.
Hope that helps. As always Wonka, thanks for checking in. School starts this week, schedule in place. Let's see what the fall brings.
Cheers
Dev
Dev;
I think it's a positive sign that she gave you a nice BD card and asked for a hug. Good that you obliged. Little acts of kindness like that can precipitate more, as long as they are all positive experiences for her. I hope when you hugged her you held on to her in the most loving way you could.
When I was in the state you were in a few months ago I started working on developing my heart chakra - there are exercises on youtube. Trying to keep the energy flowing - but to have to watch you don't get out of balance. I had to go and get my chakras balanced afterward by a reiki master. I mentioned it to my W at the time and within 2 weeks she asked me to book her an appt with the same reiki master. Not sure if you think this stuff is wacko, but I do believe in the Human Energy Field and how it can affect relationships.
Whatever you're doing though, keep it up. I think any micro improvement is better that deterioration.
Peter,
Thanks for your words. I do believe in energy fields. Like that idea and selection. Seems like a great GAL activity.
I'm in a bit of a quandary. School has started. And my W is taking the kids according to the schedule that we are alternating on. However, on the days she has the kids, she expects the nanny to come to her residence, pick up the kids and take them to school or my house.
I currently pay for the nanny. I like the idea of best interest for my kids, and I don't have a problem if this system is done, but the extra costs involved now I feel should be borne by both of us. She feels that she makes less and should have use of the nanny when needed. Huh?
Part of me wants to say, sorry, you made the decision, now you need to deal with it. Of course this isn't helpful at all. I also don't want my kids to suffer. But I feel she needs to deal with this. Another option is for her to get a place to live closer to where we live. Of course she didn't consult me when she rented her place, nor should she have. I know I am a bit bitter, but just not sure if I should be making a stand on this issue.
There has been no indication of any interest at all in a R with me. From what I can tell, the OM seems to have died off, but really that's irrelevant. I do know there is still communication between them. I walk the fine line of being totally dark, which prevents me from interaction, but I understand it's required at this point.
I'd welcome any thoughts on the nanny issue. Thanks.
Dev
How about splitting nanny fees proportional to ur incomes? That's how child care costs are split here. According to my lawyer in my case H would have to pay 60% & I'd be required to pay 40%
Hey mdu,
That's what I would like to do and think is fair, but she wants no part of it. Doesn't feel she should pay anything. I imagine my split would be something along the same lines. I'll see what happens. I fear the worst. But that's fear. Reality may be better. Who knows. Thanks for stopping in.
Cheers
Dev
I understand you don't want the kids caught in the crossfire. I acted with that in mind when I went through my divorce with my first wife. I suffered for it financially, but the kids turned out ok 11 years later.
I agree that the most fair thing is what mdu suggested, but your W may not have any understanding of what's fair. You could tell her that you can no longer afford the nanny and say you're working on trying to find alternatives. Then see if she suggests pitching in. If it's her suggestion then at least she won't be fighting it out of spite.
Hey Dev,
What's happenin' with you and your sitch? Please do drop a line when you can....this Jane is missing her Tarzan!
Alrighty,
Looks like a bit of an update is in order. So the last few weeks seemed to have been ok, except for a few comments I made, which caused a lot of ripples. I'm not sure if I am making the stitch worse or not? Last week, my W came to the house and took some food that I had bought. I was at work. I had dragged all the kids to the grocery store, and it was an ordeal, so I was frustrated that she didn't go and get it herself in her own time. However, I rephrased my frustration, and suggested that if she could let me know if she was taking food that would be great, just so I didn't run out.
There was a big text barrage about me being controlling and demeaning, and then it settled down. No real problems. She hasn't been feeling well, and I offered to help out with running the kids somewhere, which she appreciated but declined. She also told me she is on the verge of a stress leave from her work and she cannot handle her life etc.
I then today, received a text asking if she could take some things. I had again spent the last three days shopping to fill the list the nanny had given. I responded sure, and maybe the next time she could fill the list. Was this bad?
The barrage that followed was intense and sad. And it included a picture of her crying in the car. I was again accused of being demeaning and degrading and not recognizing all the times she has done things for the house. She then said she wishes to have NC, which is what we have been doing really anyways.
She told me that she had been in a meeting to appeal for financial aid. She still has full access to bank accounts etc, but I think she is truly seeking some financial autonomy. She reiterated her desire to seperate and have financial autonomy. The reality is of course I don't think she will be able to do it. But that's not my issue.
My concern is obviously for her, and also if I have I critically erred? In reality to me, her taking food to feed the kids when she has them is completely fine with me. I am feeling a bit used that she doesn't utilize her own time to get the food. Instead, relying on me to pick it up all the time. And at the same time, my heart goes out to her when I see how she is struggling. But I can't rescue her. I feel like I've lost my way a bit, and need to refocus. I didn't get upset after this outburst today, or argue her feelings.
I told her it made me sad to see her in this state, I told her it must have been emotionally difficult to be appealing for money and asking for support. And most importantly I told her that I truly want her to be happy, and I hope that she finds happiness on her journey. This is how I truly feel. I did apologize and say my comment was not meant to degrade her in any way.
We have a mediation meeting on Friday. I'm not sure how it will go, and I'm nervous. I'm feeling a bit like I need to change tact. I'm not sure if what I'm doing is working. I'm guessing that the reality of her situation is starting to sink in. But truly I don't know what's going on anymore.
Any suggestions or 2x4s, perhaps starting with why would you make a big deal about taking food for your kids? Ugh, I screwed up on that one I feel.
Cheers,
Dev
Hey Dev. Looks like we're both on a bit of a plateau. Just waiting for the status quo to change, hopefully for the better, but seemingly unable to influence the course.
I think you handled the food taking incident with tact. No 2x4 required.
I often think that it would be good to say to her, hey, there's a way out of your mess and it's call reconciliation with your husband. But I think that would be perceived as being demanding, pursuing, controlling, manipulative, selfish, etc., etc...
So just staying the course with minimal contact may be the only way.
Maybe just a card saying the door's open. But she probably already knows that. She just doesn't want to walk through that door just yet.
I don't know. I feel stumped in my sitch.
Keep up the PMA.
Dev,
Unless you're asking if you could have been *stronger* (instead of nicer), I don't understand why you feel you were wrong here. I
know what it's like to have to wrangle multiple kids in a grocery store. I go once a week and buy everything I need for all our meals that week (plus snacks, etc.) for the kids. If someone came in and took any of that, I'd cut 'em. (Just kidding. I wouldn't really cut anybody. But I'd be tempted!!
)
Your W's financial issues are a natural consequence of her actions and her decision to leave her M, right?
Why go out of your way to protect her from that?
Also, I'm not asking you to mind-read here, but your W took a picture of herself crying and sent it to you while she was lashing out at you in texts? It's been a while since I've read through your threads, but is she typically that manipulative? Are you afraid of hurting her feelings or "causing" her to become angry?
What's goin' on in that noodle of yours, buddy? Talk to me.
I think you were too nice. It seems to me your wife likes to play the victim.
Thanks everyone for the comments
Peter: Glad to hear you agree with me, I was looking for some feedback on that. I don't think I will send a card though. Couldn't agree more that reconciliation would solve lots of these issues, but I want that to happen as a result of her wanting it and myself wanting it. Not for financial reasons etc. She does know where I stand. I think sending a card would be pursuing too much, as you noted. On a side note, I was reading your update, and seems to me you are very patient. Your still sticking it out. I think most of us here would agree. Keep your head up
Train: So glad someone else understands my frustration! Yes, taking the food is really all about the difficulty and time involved in getting it. Typically my W is very manipulative, she cries when she doesn't get what she wants, and is quick to jump to "you demean me and control me etc". Totally agree, it's a consequence of her actions. I do not need to protect her from those consequences. Where I was worried I may have erred was in making a big deal about something that is minimal overall. Big picture, would I rather have my kids eating food, yes. Big picture would I rather be in a great R with my wife, yes. That's where I was worried I was messing things up. I realize that I need to maintain and keep my boundaries, for me. If she goes on stress leave, so be it.
Twinmom: Thanks for the reminder. I wondered that myself. I need to stop being a rescuer. It's an old habit that likes to rear it's head, often. I agree with you, I was too nice. And my W is an expert victim player. Learned habit passed through generations, hopefully stilling with my kids.
Thanks everyone, Friday will be interesting.
Dev
Dev, thanks for the support. You're being very patient too. Isn't it amazing how long this whole process can take. I know it took about 5 years for me to get into this mess but hopefully with the increased awareness and newly learned skill sets I can cut the recovery time to 2-1/2 years. I've got over 1 year under my belt so far (she moved out of our bed 13 months ago) and I've only really been doing positive movement work for the last 6 months when I read DR.
This indeed is a marathon. But the time spent alone is productive. There's so much to learn. Every day is a school day.
Keep your head up too, Dev. You'll be fine, regardless of what choices other people make. You deserve to be loved. The pain will go away. You'll be ok.
Okay,
So it appears that the Mediation went well. I reiterated that I am not a monster interested in control. I have no interest in destroying her, and I have no interest in controlling her or manipulating her. I think my W actually listened. She unblocked me and we had some very simple exchangers regarding the kids. It's highly tenuous, but I would say it's definitely positive.
Regardless of what happens, I need to maintain civility and co parent and I really want to demonstrate to my kids a strong secure role model.
Shockingly my W even asked me to have the kids call her. I facilitated a conversation gladly, and bit my tongue when she suggested it's much harder for her to do night time, which is why I shouldn't call at night.
She did tell me a good time to call and let me call and speak with the kids, which was great!
I've really realized that my W is bent in getting appreciation for all the things she feels were under appreciated in our M. Both of us feel unappreciated, and I have realized that I cannot expect to ever get any appreciation from my W with respect to my contributions to our M, household and they kids. My W seems hung up on the idea that I don't listen to her. Which then proves to her that she is doing the right thing....
Anyways, I've really I realized there is no convincing from me. I'm going to go about leading my life without her in it, and hope for the best for myself and my kids. She is the one that gets to chose the pathways she takes....and where it leads.
Dev
Wow, so many errors above, sleep deprivation is definitely not recommended before writing an update
Hey Dev, sounds like you've made some baby steps. Let me chime in a bit here.
Don't worry about her schedule or her not being available at night. I know where that takes your mind, but you have to really detach from that. Accommodate her desired timing.
If she is bent on getting appreciation then it seems to me that one of her primary LLs is Word of Affirmation. Have you in the past not given her that appreciation? I would recommend that at appropriate times you tell her how much you appreciated everything she did to raise your kids. Ignore the A and the aftermath. Focus on the positive contributions she made and let her know you noticed them and really appreciate them.
So you feel unappreciated too? Well at this point you'll just need to suck it up and be stoic. If and when you reconcile then there may be a chance to get her to appreciate everything you're doing and have done to protect your kids and save your marriage. Until such a time focus on showing her your appreciation. Think of positive contributions she made when your M was good. Bring those up and thank her for those - really focus on the positive however obscure or old - but only to let her know how much she is appreciated. This may be a 180 for you. If so then it's probably the right approach.
She thinks you don't listen to her? Next time you're talking try reflective conversation (google it: Bruce Muzik reflective conversation). That changes the interactions immensely. It takes a bit of practice and discipline but it really works. I tried it early on and my W said I'm finally listening to her. I should do it more.
By doing those two things, she may want then to spend more time talking with you. That could lead to more connection, which could lead to more quality time with her, which could start filling the empty love bucket.
Hey Peter,
Thanks for stopping in and your feedback. I really appreciate it.
With respect to her schedule, I am pretty detached I think. Maybe I'm fooling myself, but her availability at night etc was referring more to her not letting me speak to the kids at night. That's what I don't like. I've managed to accommodate this a bit. It has been an issue for us though. She feels like me calling the kids is to actually check up on her, and she finds it very difficult to accommodate. Her line is that "this is your need, not the kids need". Which then starts into a diatribe on how she always met my needs. And I didn't meet hers.
I've really tried to show her appreciation for all the things that she's done in the past. She usually doesn't believe me or doubts my sincerity. I may need to change my delivery. I've been attempting the reflective listening, and it's hard. She feels like when I repeat what's she has just said l'm belittling her. I'm going to persist and maybe change the technique slightly to be less obvious. Thanks for sending the link.
As for appreciation, I agree with you. Not going to happen at this time. However, reinforcing the appreciation for the past is not a bad idea. Anything that fills her love bucket will help.
Implement and progress. Still no big blowups, which is in itself a good thing. Small baby steps, and who knows what will happen.
Cheers
Dev
With the reflective convo, after she makes her first statement just say, "ok I may be a little slow but I think what you're saying is ... [and then paraphrase what she just said]. Did I get that right?" And if she says "yes", then ask, "is there more?"
Once she's done then try to empathize and say something like, "I can see what you're saying" and then, "wow, that must have made you feel ... [unappreciated, hurt, degraded, unloved, etc..]. Did I get that right?" Then wait for correction if required.
You see it's just trying to understand what she's saying and mirroring it back to let her know you're hearing her.
Just a thought.
Thanks Peter,
That's awesome advice. I will try it next time I am able to have a conversation.
Been a tad stressful this weekend. My W had the kids, I showed up for swimming, and she was crying. Suggested she has no friends, and all her friends are in miserable marriages. I had to STFU to not say "aren't you happier now" I didn't get a chance to speak to my kids until the next day. Turns out my W was sick and hungover. Couldn't drive. I was asked to take my daughter to ballet. I came back to find my W and two of my kids in the house already. She was a mess, and my daughter refused to go to ballet.
I tried to convince her, but it didn't work. I ended up going out. I offered to take the kids for the night if she wasn't feeling up to it. She declined. I had to leave before i made any mistakes.
I completely changed my plans when my daughter called asking me to take her to ballet because mom couldn't drive. I don't have any problem doing this. But to come home and find my W in the house hung over I found a bit much.
Obviously, she's not in a good place. I hope she finds her peace and gets to a happier and safer place. It's tough to watch someone you have cared about for so long go through all this.
Dev
Oh Dev. Sorry you're going through this. Looks like she's hitting rock bottom. Does she have an IC/MC to talk to? Would she accept a suggestion to get some counselling? You could even offer to pay for a couple sessions if you think it would do her good. Don't call it rescuing. Call it investing in rebuilding your marriage. Just a thought.
Dev,
What a rough update!
I completely changed my plans when my daughter called asking me to take her to ballet because mom couldn't drive. I don't have any problem doing this. But to come home and find my W in the house hung over I found a bit much.
Obviously, she's not in a good place. I hope she finds her peace and gets to a happier and safer place. It's tough to watch someone you have cared about for so long go through all this.
Yes, it is hard not to rush in and try to "fix" things for the WAW. As you know, we all say here that we must step back and allow WASes to experience the consequences of their choices. It seems to me that W is really hitting bottom. Not sure if that's her ultimate "rock bottom" , but looks awfully close to it.
Detachment with compassion is a tricky balance indeed. Good job on walking out of the house. That is a good DBing move on your part, Dev.
Thanks Peter and Wonka,
Appreciate the support, it does indeed look ugly right now. Peter, I am paying for IC for my W, but she feels she doesn't need any? Can't push that issue. I like the idea of thinking about it as investing rather than rescuing, but it seems such a fine line as Wonka points out with respect to letting the WAS hit rock bottom.
I think she is truly realizing what life without Dev is like. There were some more heated texts about how she is struggling and living frugally, while I am having an awesome time. Really? She doesn't realize how limbo has become my norm, and just how difficult the last few months have been on me. Of course, she doesn't need to. I feel really good right now. Strong, confident, self aware, and fairly organized. She's insisting on separating our finances, as her first cheque only covered her rent. I think that's what triggered her outburst today.
I listened to her concerns, reiterated them, and then told her WTF did you expect was going to happen? Just kidding, I would never say that, I just STFU and related that I shared her concern, and how I wanted to maintain the kids best interest in everything that is done.
Should be interesting to see what happens from here. Going to be very interesting. For sure.
Thanks everyone for reading. Hopefully someone somewhere is seeing mistakes I make and positively applying them to their stitch.
Cheers,
Dev
I listened to her concerns, reiterated them, and then told her WTF did you expect was going to happen? Just kidding, I would never say that.
Oh Dev. I laughed and I laughed.
You sound well. I'm not surprised. It's quite amazing the circuitous path we take in order to become better people, isn't it.
Sorry your here, Dev. But it sounds like you may just be in the driver's seat soon.
Praying for you.
Thanks Zew and Jefe,
I had a great laugh myself writing it. Wasn't sure if anyone would notice it. Obviously what I wanted to say, but didn't. Instead I wrote it here. Almost as good though. Zee, must be a time for a bit of an update from you? How goes it there?
I'm doing well thanks, just getting more and more detached lately, which is good in some ways.
Jefe, thanks for your kind words and prayers. I'm sorry I'm here too, but in actuality, I don't now where I'd be without this forum. Good people and great support
Drivers seat, wistful thinking, all
I'm after is being a co-pilot
Cheers
Dev
Yeah, Dev. My WAW also thinks I have the blessed life while she is struggling. Seems to be par for the course in our sitches.
When she complains you could say the door is open for her to come home and maybe that would be something to broach with her IC and leave it at that.
I hear you Peter,
It's very tempting to say that, but I am concerned she will feel like it is pursuing and it will drive her away further and make her feel like I have ulterior motives for everything I am doing. I'm hoping to just be consistently a good person, and my WAS may or may not realize what she is losing. I think it's up to her to realize that. I think helping her recognize what she is losing etc will only put me in a bad light if I do it verbally. Non verbal actions will be very effective, because they signify and demonstrate my changes. I truly feel my WAW knows unfortunately that if she approached me, I would be interested in reconciliation under the right conditions. But we aren't even close to that yet in any way, shape, or form.
Any thoughts?
Cheers
Dev
Dev,
I think you are on the right path by letting W figure out her stuff and seeing what life is like on the "other" side. Getting the first check is a small part of the process. There will be more stuff coming out and she'll discover pretty quickly that life as a "single" woman isn't what it's cracked to be. I should know!
Thanks Wonka,
Going to be many downs on this pathway. I agree with you. She is now pushing for a S agreement, which will push us further down the D road. But overall, I think it's necessary for her to figure out where she is, what she has, and what she has access to. Life without Dev will be tougher and harder, but if she is happier, then I'm happy. I continue to be in a great place I think. Do I still care for her incredibly, yes. Would I like the opportunity to R. Yes. But, the conditions would have to be right. I still feel like she may pop out of this and realize what she has done. Of course, at this point my feelings have been "boxed and placed on that closet shelf up high". If they are re-opened, I'll cross that bridge at that time. Not sure if I'm holding out false hope, or if the woman I know still exists somewhere in that mind of hers.
Cheers
Dev
at this point my feelings have been "boxed and placed on that closet shelf up high". If they are re-opened, I'll cross that bridge at that time. Not sure if I'm holding out false hope, or if the woman I know still exists somewhere in that mind of hers.
Zew mentioned in his post the other day that his wife was "so far out of character"... I feel the same way sometimes. The woman that comes by and calls sometimes is not at all who walked out the door Aug 5th. Who is this woman? What has she done with my wife?
I like the "shelf" analogy. I may have to adopt that one.
Hang in there, Dev.
Thanks Jefe,
Appreciate the words of support. I can't take credit for the "box on the shelf" analogy. I read it at some point during my perusal of the blogs, and I can't remember which wise vet it was posted by, but it makes sense to me. Credit to them.
Good luck with your stitch. It's still so early, you've got
lots of time. Make sure to use it wisely
Dev
Okay, so a bit of history. This is a bit of a vent, and of course also want to make sure I handled this situation okay. Any feedback or suggestions on my comments or interaction are welcomed.
To summarize, although it wasn't my day, my kids were dropped of at the house, which is fine with me. The nanny is there, and I have time before I go to work in the afternoon. My older kids were at school and I took my S4 out to see the bears at the local zoo, as he wanted to go. He had ten minute nap on the way home, which sets up the next interaction, that occurred when I asked if the kids wanted to say goodnight.....
Dev: Do the kids want to say goodnight?
WAW:Nope. And maybe next time give me a heads up if S4 has napped.
Dev:Ok, he had a ten min one in the car. Sorry about that. He was super tired I guess. Thanks.
WAW:Well they're going to be a heckuva lot more tired tomorrow now.
Thank you. Naturally he's ruined it for us. A fine night gone to [censored]. Maybe make the nanny look after the kids when she is being paid to do so
Dev: I'm sorry about that. It's hard to prevent him from napping. I was home for a bit. Sorry it's a tough night.
WAW:today is my day with them from am to pm. If you want to see them don't [censored] it up for me later. I've got two new senior courses that come with major sets of new responsibilities plus lunches to pack and to clean my place and it's all a write off now. Don't [censored] me over on my days. Transition days I have to suck up but NOT my own days. I did everything right tonight to get them to sleep early and now it's ruined. And he's kept D6 up and they're wild. I have to get them all dressed and packed and drive them to your house before I go to work. It's not easy.
Dev: I'm really sorry it's a bad night. I agree it's not easy
WAW: Great. Don't [censored] me over on my days. It's not fair. It's tough enough.
Yup, they were still tired from Monday night they told me.
D6 and S4 will have 10 hours of sleep if they're lucky tonight. They're still awake. They can't sleep til 8 at my place. I have a career too you know. I have zero options for exercise when they're with me. Doesn't help. Would be nice if you accepted responsibility that it was really selfish of you to tire S4 out at the zoo so that he had to have a nap. And now I'm irritated beyond belief and the kids are suffering bc of it.
I stopped replying because I realized it was pointless. Perhaps my reflective text conversation could have been better? I see when I read over it, it may look like I was arguing or trying to make my own point. I was pretty frustrated and didn't want to react. Disappointing and sad for me to see this occur...
The journey continues.
Dev
>spew jacket engaged<
You selfish bast*rd for tiring the kid out at the zoo. Come on, really?
I read nothing argumentative in that transaction on your part.
Oh how familiar this all sounds.
Was this conversation on the phone or in person?
I would have just said "Wow." or "I'm sorry you feel that way, but he had a good time and he was tired." If she persisted, I would have ended the conversation with a "I'm not going to apologize to you for my parenting, and I'm certainly not going to sit here and listen to you spew profanities at me. As much as you may think everything I do is centered around YOU, please don't flatter yourself -- I was only trying to show our son a good time, and it made him tired. End of conversation."
Or similar.
Your wife sounds like a real gem.
Starsky
Thanks Jefe and Starsky,
Minus the edits, and the censored bits that the DB webmasters did, that was a verbatim text conversation.
I like the way that was put Starsky. Instead of not replying making a stand would have been much better. Would have been much stronger. Unfortunately, needed to collect myself before responding and then chose to let it go.
Thanks for the feedback, and yes my W is a real gem
Next time I will let him watch tv for hours........why would I want to spend time with him anyways, he's only my S?? Sometimes....
Dev
Dev,
Remember the balance between validating and not tolerating disrespectful behavior, actions, or words.
Wanna re-read the Validation Cheat Sheet again?
Truthfully, your W is having a taste of what life's like outside of the marital home with young children. And she's NOT liking it one bit as it "interferes" with her schedule and/or plans. Ugh. Wakey, wakey, wakey wife!!! C'mon...it's all because of your choices.
Wanna re-read the Validation Cheat Sheet again?
Yes, please.
Thanks Wonka,
I'll need to review that sheet. And keep it handy I think. This is not the last of these types of barrages.
Cheers as always,
Dev
Ok,
Looks like I got blocked once again. Anytime I seem to be making progress.....slam. Lots of threats to get a lawyer on her behalf. She was frustrated today that one of my kids activities would occur when she wanted to do another activity. This was the first time she mentioned it, and I was accused of not listening to her at all. She said she needs to get a lawyer so she could have a voice, and then denied having ever okayed the activity. This is the second week of the activity, and the first time anything has been mentioned.
I wrote an angry bitter and to be honest hurtful and mean letter to her, then I read it over and deleted it. Not worth it, I'm not sure if that follows DB principles, but it worked for me. Then I questioned myself, is this how I truly feel? I like to think the self check and realization that sending it would not do anything shows progress and my growth. It was very heartfelt, but it was laden with consequences, which she is realizing on her own.
The journey continues....
Dev
Dev,
You sound like a very frustrated guy tonight!
Looks like I got blocked once again. Anytime I seem to be making progress.....slam. Lots of threats to get a lawyer on her behalf. She was frustrated today that one of my kids activities would occur when she wanted to do another activity. This was the first time she mentioned it, and I was accused of not listening to her at all. She said she needs to get a lawyer so she could have a voice, and then denied having ever okayed the activity. This is the second week of the activity, and the first time anything has been mentioned.
Could you please give some more details on what transpired? It is pretty general here and it is hard for us to help you when it is not exactly clear on what happened or who said what.
This would help in getting a better picture of what happened.
Gotcha Wonka,
I will post the transcript in a few hours, I'm just out of range right now
Your right, I was very frustrated, but I feel much better now. I look forward to the comments
Dev
As promised here is the convo that led to my being blocked, and then magically unblocked by my W. I got a phone call from my S8 last night asking to please call him back. I sent an email to my W asking her to pass on thanks for the message and please let him know I couldn't call him back because all my numbers were blocked......I then received the last two texts, again out of left field.
Mrs Dev: So (family friend) is taking S4 this week. What's the plan for the next few weeks? I can take him next week by fluke my work schedule works but very rarely will it.
Dev: Awesome. She will help out for two or three weeks. However much Is needed. Once (another friend of Dev) is back from holidays, He will pick up S4 after getting his S5. Some Saturdays we can reciprocate. My mom is good to help when she is back also. (Dev's friend) is good to help most all the time
Same with (w of Dev's friend)
Mrs Dev: Like even on my days (Dev's friend) and your mom will help? I doubt your mom.
Dev: I'm sure they all will Ms Dev. I told you I would take care of it. You can pick up, but I don't see it being a problem. With my mom, it's for S4. Dev's friend wants his S5 to have a buddy there anyways.
It's all going to work out. Famous last words by optimist Dev
Mrs Dev: Right. Work was saving a spot for me in exec. But those mtgs are Thursdays. And now S4's hockey is Thursday. Yes. I'm sure for S4 it will.
For me and our finances it doesn't.
Dev: Sorry Mrs Dev, didn't know that
Mrs Dev: It wouldn't have changed anything if you did
Dev: You asked me about it after our session, you knew the dates. I signed up after talking with you.
Mrs Dev: I asked you what was happening with it.
The next thing I new I got an email forwarded to me that he was registered. That email said the times and the costs. I was not consulted on that at all.
I never actually said yes or no. Never had the chance.
Dev: A different conversation then I recall outside Mrs Dev. I told you both the times and the cost. And that it started in October. Similar to D6's martial arts which I sent and haven't heard back from you on
Mrs. Dev: Okay Dev. Whatever you say. That's why I need a lawyer.
Dev: Ok, what do you want to do about D6. And the lawyer helps how?
Mrs Dev: I don't matter. Gives me the voice you won't or can't
Dev: Sorry, seems I took care of the transportation issue, but it's still not enough
Mrs Dev: Good bye
Dev: Gotta run Mrs Dev, you need to use your voice. This is the very first time in all of this that you told me about the exec meetings on Thursdays
Mrs Dev: Because I don't need your approval. I should be able to do things in my life. Sorry i don't have a mom to have my kids for sleepovers anytime I want to do something. Blocking you. Email me if you need to get in touch.
Dev: That's not good for communication Mrs Dev.
And then 10 hours later after the phone call from son and my email.
Mrs Dev: Do you need any help with
S8 and hockey tomorrow or getting S4 to soccer?
You are currently unblocked
So after reading that, I see a few things I would have liked to change. Part of the problem with text exchanges is sometimes you write before a response comes through. Clearly when I read that, I cringe because I don't address some of the complaints my W is making. No Wonka validation. I need to step back and avoid responding till I collect my thoughts I think. The frustration of her asking me to sign him up, and then getting mad at me when it started got to me.
Probably a line like:
Obviously the exec meetings are important to you. I'm sure we can figure out a way to have you attend your meetings and still get S4 to hockey
I need to do more validation and wait to respond to texts so I make sure I am listening.
Please 2x4 away, it's needed.....
Dev
Dev,
No 2x4s, my dear.
You might want to come from a position that is supportive within reason and try to work to defuse things if you feel Mrs. Dev is getting a rise out of your exchanges.
Yes, a bit of validation goes a long way. Perhaps you might want to take a peek at my thread in the Big D forum. Hint: Ms. Wonka sent a response this morning.
Back to you....
It is clear that Mrs. Dev is feeling frustrated at some certain things that appear not to go her way. I am not sure where she's feeling BLOCKED...pun intended.
You might want to soften your approach a bit more when doing text and/or email exchanges. Such as "what are your thoughts...is that what you (or I) understand here?", "perhaps I misunderstood...." You get the idea, Dev.
I am sensing some resentment on her part in that she views you as having a great support system in place such as your Mom and friends willing to help out with kiddos and she apparently feels that she does not have someone she can rely on in a pitch. Doesn't she realize that this is what a separation is actually all about...maybe she thought she'll be doing happy hopscotches away from you. Then reality bites her in the butt and she isn't liking it one bit.
Oh well.
Hey Wonka,
Thanks for the support. I really agree with you. The reality is setting in. I'm somewhat confused by the up and down, but I just try and stay level all the time.
Seems the littlest things cause her to blow over. Really, I can't do anything right in her eyes. So, I step back. The less contact I have right now the better.
The latest, we exchanged vehicles for the day so I could take the kids for a bike ride. Went fine, until she found out I was at a dinner, and then she was upset about me using gas, which morphed into using her and controlling her. It's quite incredible to me to watch it occur. I stayed calm and validated her anxiety, and asked what I could do to help. The profanity laden tirade that followed was not helpful to me
I've called her on things that have confused me, when I haven't understood something. And she has admitted she needs to be more explicit. I believe she has several expectations of post Dev life that she is struggling with as they do
Not come to fruition.
Anyways, all in all, I'm doing great! I will update with a few more details later today of some big things I need to decide.
Cheers,
Dev
Apparently I need to stop doing anything involving her. As an attempt to try and placate any anger or vehemence regarding me using the vehicle, I put in 1/4 tank of gas to replace what was used plus add more than enough.
I got a text thanking me for adding gas. I responded with no problem.
An hour later, a text came through saying that to be honest, it's cheap and petty that I didn't fill the car up completely. And that was followed by a tirade about how she's struggling and I'm not stressed about it.
Seems to me someone is facing some real reality. Ahhh, time to sit back and watch the show..... I know that sounds awful and uncaring, but I truly feel like this mess she has created herself, and she needs to solve it now. Herself, not with my help.
Dev
Seems to me someone is facing some real reality. Ahhh, time to sit back and watch the show..... I know that sounds awful and uncaring, but I truly feel like this mess she has created herself, and she needs to solve it now. Herself, not with my help.
And this is
exactly what must happen.
Good job, Dev.
Two words, Dev:
SPEW JACKET.
Thanks Jefe and Starsky,
Good thing I've got such a stockpile of those spew jackets. They get filled pretty fast.....
Dev
Dev, your wife is acting like a toddler. You are being wonderful! Keep up the good work and just ignore her nonsense!
Thanks Twinmom,
In real time right now I am being berated for being "demeaning, dismissive, and judgemental". These are the favorite words of choice.
I asked genuinely for an example in our exchange where this was occurring, and I got a response that went back to previous things that upset her, like my letter to her back in the summer.
Clearly, clarity is absent here. What I wonder, is why does she care so much. Why so angry all the time. I feel like she is trying to blame me for her making her decision. Say hello to Super Dark Dev, SDD, not STD
is in the house
Dev
Dev;
I get that almost daily. I'm spending a lot of time with my W and we're in the "friends" mode but every so often she gets pissed off and dredged up stuff from the past as if it happened yesterday. Yeah, it's like a broken record. I've got to find a way to diffuse it. I'm thinking reflective conversation, but that may be seen as just a ploy. Sometimes it seems we just can win and the only strategy is to STFU or just change the subject - obviously.
W - I can't believe you made me leave your house when your ex came over (10 years ago)
Me - Looks like I need to clean out the eaves troughs today - lots of leaves falling into them.
Thanks Peter,
So true. For example, I woke up to these texts below. I'm not even sure where to respond or if I should. I'm not sure where she thinks I blame mental illness. I haven't responded and I'm not going to I don't think till I collect myself. If I respond at all. She's got a threat about S4s activities, and then lays several other things on the table. My first response was to argue her points, but I realize it doesn't matter, that's how she feels, and that can't be argued. Then I feel crappy about myself that the woman I spent so much of my adult life with perceived me that way. Then I tell myself she is rewriting marital history etc. Sure makes it hard to know what to believe. Except, I know I'm a good person, I have a good heart, and I'm full of love and caring. I just can't reach through to the one person that I want to. I think she's done......
Here's the texts from this AM
"Just FYI - I've just looked at my entire work schedule and there is not one day where I have a chance on Thursdays on my days with the kids for the rest of the year. So I will not be able to take S4 to hockey again. So, hopefully you've got it all planned like you said. "
"And PS every time you tell me to go be happy somewhere else you dismiss any responsibility that you had on the destruction of our marriage. You think it's okay to use my history of mental illness as a scapegoat for you being selfish and controlling. You were NOT a good partner at all to me. A good job does not make one a good partner. You gave nothing else to your role as partner and parent in our family. Nothing. So stop blaming my mental illness and treating me like a lost cause."
"Or we are going to have a toxic co-parenting relp for as long as I can last.
When you get the accountant to send the past three years of all our financials personal and corp year ends please have him send them to my lawyer as well. I assume you've done this given you are meeting with your lawyer tomorrow and we need them for the separation agreement. And we need the agreement so you can buy me out of the house. If you're not prepared to do they by. Dec 31st, then the house will have to go on the market."
"I need it by then so I can have a couple of months to determine my options. I need to be in an new place by next summer. "
So my initial response was tossed out. I decided no response was necessary. What are everyone's thoughts? I welcome input here. Off to the pumpkin patch.....
Cheers
Dev
No response from you is needed. I personally think she is acting like a 2yr old. Just ignore her. Go to the pumpkin patch and try to enjoy yourself.
She just wants you to say how wrong you were so she can deflect all her guilt onto you.
Thanks Twinmom,
That's what I've decided. I received another 7 texts in the last 30
min. So far fetched and unreal.......but not going to get a response from me.
Thanks again,
Cheers,
Dev
Is this an opportunity for validating?
Hey Claire7,
I've wondered the same thing myself. I have tried to follow some of Wonkas validation cheat sheets, and I have done it before. I find sometimes when I do this, she still seems to get incredibly angry. It's a valid question though. And a great point. I'm crafting a response today....
Cheers and thanks
Dev
In my first marriage I would get a barrage of vicious emails. I never replied. If there was an email that was civil I would reply quickly. That sends the message that spewing is not rewarded but civil discourse is.
In my first marriage I would get a barrage of vicious emails. I never replied. If there was an email that was civil I would reply quickly. That sends the message that spewing is not rewarded but civil discourse is.
LOVE this. ^^^
Hey Dev,
What's happening to my Tarzan? Do you need a Jane to prop up your bruised ego? I don't mind playing your lovely Jane here!
Hey Wonka,
Thanks for checking in. A lot going on, I've actually posted twice, but I guess they haven't shown up.
Let's do the quick summary, I saw a L last week, W knowing that was going on, asked me to send an email showing how I have changed. I have not yet done this. From my intelligence, the OM and her are having some issues. And lastly, I have been receiving regular rants and my W has now come to realize she has borderline personality disorder.
Now I don't really disagree with this diagnosis. She sent me all kinds of information on the symptoms, emotional instability, quick to anger, irrational, suspicious, unable to reason with, and prone to sexual indiscretions. Also on the list was alternating between driving yourself away from someone close to you and then having fear of abandonment.
This was followed by all kinds of rants and swearing at me for not responding. So I responded this AM by thanking her for sending me the information, and then asking who she had for support and who had she discussed this with. I also asked her how we can manage this going forward with our interactions. Although she isn't interested in me at this time, I need to interact. She said after looking at the diagnosis, it seems futile to her. This saddened me.
I find it ironic she can send me this information, and then rant and spew at me with impunity. It seems she fails to realize this step.
That being said, identifying the issue is big for her, I'm going to check into different treatments so I can ask her about them.
As always, the fun continues.
Happy Halloween,
Dev
Dev, you made a good point. Awareness is the start of healing. Of course she'll spew even though she knows she has a personality disorder. Maybe she hasn't quite come to the point of identifying her spewing with her disorder. Plain as the nose on her face to everyone else but she's too close to it and possibly the personality disorder is causing the lack of connection of her obvious manifestations of the symptoms to the disorder itself.
A glimmer of hope.
Good to hear from you Dev.
W asked me to send an email showing how I have changed. I have not yet done this.
And I guess I wonder if there's any benefit to that.
You're not trying to prove anything to her --
she has to realize what you are or have become, and what she would be living without. I think that's the only way this works. On the other hand, I suppose such an email would be free.
W has now come to realize she has borderline personality disorder.
The diagnosis is no shock. That W
realizes it is a step forward. Now comes the tough part -- will she deal with it, or use the diagnosis as an excuse.
I find it ironic she can send me this information, and then rant and spew at me with impunity.
I have struggled with this dissonance as well. In your mind, she is lashing out at someone who most wants to help her with the problem. You are her biggest cheerleader, if only she would realize that. But in her mind, your helpfulness is part of the problem. It's helpful-Dev trying to tell her how to be happy, trying to fix things, being controlling. And even if you identify the most beneficial path forward with the best of intentions, she may do the exact opposite to the point of self destruction, just to have control.
I'm going to check into different treatments so I can ask her about them.
As I said, presenting this back to her in a way that doesn't make her reject it because it comes from you will be the trick.
As always, you sound rational and well.
-Zew
Dev,
It seems to me that W is unwilling to let go, forgive and move forward. Based on what you report here, W has a looong memory and holds grudges. That is not a recipe for healing nor trying to find a way out of hopelessness.
I don't think your W is there at all...or even close to it. Not by a long shot. She clearly holds on to a ton of resentments that she is unable and/or unwilling to let go. Her scorecard is definitely a lot longer than Santa's list of good boys and girls.
That being said, identifying the issue is big for her, I'm going to check into different treatments so I can ask her about them.
In reading that ^^ quote set off alarms in my head for it comes across as you being the "Daddy" and holding her hand. I would suggest that you back off and let W figure this out for herself. Time for you step back and allow W to handle things on her own since this HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the children.
It is all up to W how badly she wants treatment and how motivated she is in seeking help.
Another thing that rubs me the wrong way is how W presented information to you as in "well, this isn't my fault for having OM! Look...it is all in there. So I am not responsible for my choices." That did not sit well with me from my perch...I don't know about you, Dev.
It sounded to me as if W is absolving herself of the responsibility for having an A!! Not cool.
What do you think?
^^^ OK, good. I thought I was the only one. I completely agree with Wonka on both fronts.
Thank you Peter, Zew, Wonka and Jefe,
Nice to hear from all of you, and some great reflections. I'll try to address them
I agree Peter, a glimmer of hope perhaps, and it's the start of a process for my W. And as Zew pointed out I'm not going to be sending an email to her. I'm making my changes, but I'm not sure she's made any. The interesting thing is she keeps asking me to go to MC sessions. I haven't gone, and she is doing IC. This is positive.
Wonka, you are correct and I did feel that W felt she absolved herself of responsibility. As both Zew and you pointed out, I have no intention of speaking to her about treatment options. My concern is really for my kids safety when they are with her. To be honest, they are my singular focus with respect to her Borderline Personality Disorder. I have Starsky Spew Jackets, they do not. I'm also acutely aware that I cannot blame all that has occurred on her recent diagnosis.
She has been sending many texts, about the kids usually. I'm
not really responding to them. But this most recent once surprised me. Perhaps some guilt, who knows. She's not going to be here for Halloween, so she may be feeling bad.
Mrs Dev: I'll do and get whatever. I can. I'll be heading out of town on Friday. I don't know if you want to know but I figure I should tell you. Sorry.
I haven't responded to her text. I'm probably just going to send a quick note saying thanks for the offer, but I should be ok. Or perhaps have her pick up one thing the kids need.
It's times like Halloween and the holidays that drive home the new reality of my stitch
Trick or treat?
Dev
If she's asking you to go the MC I would oblige. You just have to be very careful about your state of mind during the session. Keep it solution based if you can. If she starts dragging up the past move on to how you can both behave so that the problems in the past don't reoccur. Look for solutions.
Also if she texts about the kids I would respond, since they are your common concern. If she spews, then, yes, don't respond, but if she's neutral or positive by all means respond and give positive reinforcement to positive behaviour. That's a path to better communication and better connection. You need to re-establish connection before any R work can be done. And positive connection will bring her out of her funk.
Hey Peter,
Thanks for your comments. I really wrestled with it. I am prepared to do MC if we are working on our R and there is no OM. She has been doing IC as have I l, which is great.
Good advice with respect to communication. I'm finding she is very up and down. Awhile back you posted on my thread about responding only to civil communication. It made me think about how and what I did. I've been doing that lately.
Essentially, backsliding in terms of arguments occur when W feels she is being blamed, or a situation arises where she doesn't want to take responsibility. I.e. She is trying to go away to visit OM, and we have a child care issue. I'm usually blamed for controlling her or making her feel a certain way. I've noticed, as Wonka said awhile ago, that scorecard of hers is so long and deep, she pulls on comments I made on BD. She's not forgetting anything that's for sure.
Building positive baby steps.....for myself and my kids, number one priority. Improve interactions with W when they occur.
Cheers,
Dev
Essentially, backsliding in terms of arguments occur when W feels she is being blamed, or a situation arises where she doesn't want to take responsibility. I.e. She is trying to go away to visit OM, and we have a child care issue. I'm usually blamed for controlling her or making her feel a certain way.
You certainly shouldn't make it easy for her to prioritize visits to OM above caring for the kids.
Can you elaborate on what you're saying in these types of arguments?
In terms of MC, is that likely to be productive whilst your W remains involved with OM? Of course our sitchs are all different, but I don't think I could commit to MC unless OP was out of the picture.
Otherwise, aren't they just the white elephant in the room?
My response would be - if this other R is over, and you want to recommit to our M (or at least see if we can be together again), I'll invest my time and energy into MC....
Thanks Uppercu and Toots,
Toots, couldn't agree more with respect to MC. That's why we aren't doing it currently. It's hard, but with the OM in the picture, there isn't much chance or purpose. We have done some family counselling to get our schedule etc set up. I have made it clear that I am open to MC if the OM is out of the picture and we are working on our R.
Uppercu, the arguments that occur typically revolve around scheduling and her ability to get away and visit OM. She also gets very upset if she feels like she is being blamed. For example, I let my co-coach for my S8's hockey team know that we are S, and it's having an affect on my S8. I also told the teachers at the kids school, to let me know if they notice anything with my children. I told her this to bring her up to speed as to when I had told them, I had first asked her if she was comfortable with this , which she was, but she still flipped out saying the S has no effect on the kids. It seems she wants to remain a pretend family, while she maintains an A. Of course, I'm not interested in that charade.
That being said, we did have a meeting to determine our assets with her cousin acting as a support for her. It was really straightforward and simple, but when the dust settled, my W was crying, and asked "how much do I get paid for the physical abuse and torture that I endured from birthing and nurturing three big babies that destroyed my body from that piece of sh@& sitting right there". And pointed at me. My kids were in another room, I asked her not to verbalize those thoughts around the kids. She went into the bathroom, crying, and I left. Typical pattern. It makes me realize how dysmorphic her body perception is, and really how unhealthy her mind is. It made me sad for her, and sad for my kids. I have in the past validated the changes her body underwent from childbirth. It's a traumatic and incredible body changing experience that I can only imagine. During our M, I was always supportive of my W, so much so that in a letter to me she said she hated me because I loved her no matter how she looked, and if I loved her and she hated herself, she loathed me for loving something she hated. It makes me feel like I can't do any right sometimes.
Chin up and keep fighting for my family.
Happy Halloween everyone.
Dev
Although she doesn't see it now, someday she may come to appreciate that you are fighting hard to protect your family and children. I know you know that. Even if she doesn't come around, at least you know what you need to do and you're doing the right thing. Also, even through the affair brain, I think a wayward spouse KNOWS what is right. They're just suppressing it right now.
She SHOULD feel guilt and blame, not that you should be the one to push that on her, but those feelings are very really consequences of acts that lead to the destruction of a marriage and family.
What if you asked her for her input on how she thinks you and her should protect and monitor the effects of the S on your children? Maybe try: "I've never been through this either so I don't know how the changes to our R will impact the kids. I want to build our children up, and I know that should never come at the cost of hurting you. How do you think we should communicate with teachers/coaches/etc who can help us to build our children up?"
My W is also very interested in what I say to others. I have taken the same approach to be open and honest about it. Since I know she will find out everything eventually, I am careful to only build her up when discussing her actions and our R with others. It is a fine line to dance, and it leaves me with little to say most of the time, but I think you can build a person up while disagreeing with their current actions and thinking. I have to constantly remind myself who my W was days before the A. She was a great friend and partner, she just messed up and slipped into the mud. She's wallowing in it now, but somewhere deep inside she is the same person I fell in love with.
Happy Halloween to you too!
"My W is also very interested in what I say to others. I have taken the same approach to be open and honest about it. Since I know she will find out everything eventually, I am careful to only build her up when discussing her actions and our R with others. It is a fine line to dance, and it leaves me with little to say most of the time, but I think you can build a person up while disagreeing with their current actions and thinking. I have to constantly remind myself who my W was days before the A. She was a great friend and partner, she just messed up and slipped into the mud. She's wallowing in it now, but somewhere deep inside she is the same person I fell in love with. "
Love this!^^^
Hello Dev,
Was just reading all of your sitch. I've learned so much from your words... thank you for sharing your story.
I'm a newbie here... a month into my sitch with a live in WAW having a long distance text/phone EA (discovered 2 weeks ago).
She also pushes for MC (to be "kinder" to each other)... but says she doesn't know if she wants to work towards an R.
Other times she says she does not want to.
Is your W wanting co-parenting or R MC?
Would it move you if she wanted R MC?
Dev & UpperCut,
This is an interesting discussion which makes me wonder if it is really our job to build up our spouses' low-esteem? How much do we feel "obligated" to carry that cross in the M? How healthy is that in a partnership that is supposed to have two people as two equal partners?
I guess the crux of this matter is how much baggage are we willing to tolerate from our partners. Let's face it: we ALL have baggage. It is all on how much we can put up with in a partner. Granted, we are not seeking a perfect 10 woman as in Bo Derek...c'mon!
Do you see where I am going with this thought process?
Dev, I cannot imagine being married to your W right now. It will just sap my energy and leave me drained. Who is looking out for number #1?? You. That's right.
Take care, buddy.
Hello HPoirot,
Sorry your here and going through this. It's a tough stitch. I'm going to do a reflective post I think in a few days, with what I have learned so far, and how I would have handled some things differently. Glad your learning from my stitch, and good luck with yours!
With respect to the MC, it seems my W uses it for validation. She's really feeling alone, and feels validated by the MC, although she does call her out on some issues. I'm really only open to it if there is no OM involved. I spent too much money and wasted my time when we did MC with the OM still in the picture.
Lately, I've been noticing that my W is extremely manipulative. She has been sending messages about one of my D6 friend's mom that she thinks likes me. Degrading her and being very accusatory. Also saying it's over, she's done, can't take it, she's been destroyed. As well as threatening suicide.
Today, she got really mad that I couldn't help her in the AM with the kids, as I'm seeing my dentist. She said it was over (yes, it's a favorite) and she could never rely on me again. I slipped up and responded that I could never trust her again, so we are all good.....not a smart thing to say at the time. Anyways, she blocked me, left me a note asking for her rings back, and had her Sister send me a
text telling me to leave her alone essentially. Ironic and sad to me. I don't initiate any contact, and don't always respond.
Wonka, I agree with you. It's not on me to create esteem for my wife. I tried that for years. My W needs to get to a place where her self esteem is derived from inside. Until she does that, I don't see anything changing. I truly can't control her, and especially how she feels. I feel sorry for her, but I'm pretty much in a place where I'm ready to move on. No matter what, I will be ok. Perhaps not happy with what has occurred, but thankful for the person that I have developed into after going though this. The journey of self development continues.
Cheers
Dev
I slipped up and responded that I could never trust her again, so we are all good.....not a smart thing to say at the time.
Agreed, not a smart thing to say. And not necessarily true either. Perhaps more accurate would have been to say, "I'm having great difficulty trusting you at this time, but if we were to work on the trust issue it would be good to see our mutual trust increase to a point where it was in the past."
Yeah, I know it would still have fallen on deaf ears at this point.
My WAW actually once called our MC who had to transmit the message to me not to contact my W. That sentiment didn't last long and she was contacting me again within a day.
Don't give up hope. True, the days are dark and the night may be long. When the sun rises again on your new day, no one knows how the two of you will see each other. Hopefully some civil discourse in the interim can pave the way to less contentious interchanges: you two have a bad habit of strife - she jabs, you respond. Try figuring out a way to avoid that cheeseless tunnel. Maybe there's a way to engage her that she doesn't expect.
Maybe when she says it's over, agree with her. Yes it is over. The marriage you had is over. Face it. The only way through this is to build a new marriage. And that starts from scratch.
Whether you're willing or interested to start from scratch with her is another thing. But as you say: keep the dream alive.
I too have reached a point recently where I'm questioning whether to pack it in or not. But I think my sitch is still too fluid for me to make a call like that. It's been almost a year since my W moved out and over a year since we've ML (except for a couple of errant sexual episodes which don't in my mind qualify as ML.
Still, Dev. Hang in there. You've done yourself proud.
Thanks Peter,
Always appreciate your insight. I agree, I'm pretty close to making a similar decision to you. It's hard though, but I'm really seeing my options. Bottom like for me, the OM is still present. Everything stops at that, not because he's the main problem, but more because his prescence prevents successful R MC.
As a follow up to her anger yesterday, I noticed when I went to put on my socks today, the drawer was filled with things that meant things to me, like cards from her for anniversaries, her wedding tiara, and she put info on grieving together after a miscarriage and some other things in the drawer. She destroyed them all after she ransacked my room while I was at MC. The tiara was bent and crumpled, cards she gave me shredded, and she was clearly angry.
It was sad for me to see, especially the miscarriage information. I wish that we had done counselling after that. It's tough to go through, but I think it definitely was a big factor in our M demise. It occurred in October of 2012.
So my choices are I change the locks to prevent this kind of behavior, or I contact my lawyer, which I have already done to determine legally what I can do, and start my divorce proceedings.
So I never like to act without thinking, or rashly, and I realize it's important to acknowledge what she has done. I returned her rings as she had requested. No point on fighting that as it is the law where I am. I realize there is a lot of pain in everything she shredded and put in the drawer. Each of the items in there represented some things she really resented about our M. So this is a good time for validation, but I wrestle with which tact to use.
Fortunately, I have time because I'm currently blocked. I need to think.
Cheers,
Dev
Wow, Dev. She's angry. I know exact how you feel. My W is raging angry at me almost all the time, although there are times when she buries it and is nice. But it doesn't take much to put her off on a rage again. I don't deal with anger well. A couple of days ago when she was yelling at me I calmly said her voice was raised and I don't want to be spoken at with a raised voice. It didn't really help at the time but later she left me a voice mail apologizing for yelling at me. So I think I need to define my boundaries regarding being yelled at. Lee Baucom, from Save the Marriage has a good chapter in his ebook about Boundaries.
Tonight when she told me again how angry she was at me I replied by saying it must be hard to be angry like that all the time. She agreed and said it's exhausting. And then she softened a little. Validation. My usual tact would be to defend myself. That doesn't work - only makes her angrier. Maybe try that line on your W.
Yeah the anger and resentment seem to be a constant theme in this worldview. It seems the only way to successfully deal with it is to commiserate, to empathize - wow, that must be hard to be angry / resentful all the time. Never dismiss her anger, or argue the causes - the emotion is real and needs to be addressed.
I've heard that anger is a secondary emotion - the primary emotion is fear or pain. Maybe we should think of ways to address the fear (of abandonment/loss of love/etc.) and the pain (of not being heard/appreciated/etc.) Any ideas? Anyone?
Dev, you still around? What's up?
Hey Peter,
Thanks for checking in. It's been a really busy time with a lot going on. My W introduced the kids to her A partner on the weekend. It upset me the way she handled it, and made me sad a bit, but not too bad actually. I just thought it was a bit inappropriate to have him sleep over at the cabin she rented. Te kids were confused. I asked my D6 what the favorite part of her weekend was, and she said the beach, and then I asked what the worst part was, and she said "mommy's friend". My W was pretty concerned about me reinforcing it's ok for her to have male friends. She then went so far as to text me and ask if she could call the kids that night. I think she's pretty concerned about their reactions. Besides making sure my children know I love them and my love is unconditional, I don't really think it's my place to tell the kids mom's OM is ok. What am I teaching them?
The week flew along and then last night we had to speak on the phone regarding some tax information. I know she saw her L on Tuesday as did I. She is scared about the impending D, and worried financially. One of her friends that speaks to both of us told me that. When my W complained to her she said "What did you think would happen?" It was nice to hear that someone vocalized that to her.
During our phone conversation, she told me she was planning on committing suicide on Veterans Day. That way people would remember her. She said she had it all planned out. It's disturbing and sad, and I struggle with setting up help for her. I've asked her to see her Dr and tell her Dr. what is going on. I will be following up on that. It's almost like she reaches out for help to me because she knows I still care, or because she trusts me so much. But really she despises me. It can be confusing.
Big weekend coming up with the kids, I can't wait. I'll post more this weekend.
Cheers,
Dev