http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2472073#Post2472073My thread lock, here is what i last wrote...
Thanks for the honest feedback and pep talk. We left our convo with her insisting they were just friends and that they are commiserating with each other. Probably how it started obviously. I know she is lying but clearly my not believing her story set her off.
Last night, I went over to see some friends and came home around 9pm. She was in bed and did not really speak with me. After 10 min of me in bed with her. she took her book and slept downstairs on the couch. This morning, I saw her, said good morning and we chatted briefly about her and my day. I have work plans tonight, so I won't be home. I believe she will be in NYC Wed/Thr.
One thing that I know is that if we don't work on our R and M, and we do divorce with a lot of resentment and issues going unresolved, the kids will be hurt in the long run. They need two parents who can be parents together, even if they are divorced. Not parents with resentment towards each other. And we cannot work on that until she is honest with me and of course, drops the OM.
Not sure how I say that to her. I said most of that yesterday but not the point about our relationship post divorce. ANY ADVICE?
My goals for this week:
- find a therapist to help me with this M and my control issues
- speak with my DB coach today
- Find ways to GAL...I have seen some friends that past few nights, who have been super supportive. They said to come by whenever. It does help to chat with people about my sitch and just do something without her on my mind (tough to do)
I also need to get my mind ready for being a single/divorce parent. I need to detach from her.
Another thing I wanted to ask about...my wife did a search for a disney cruise. I assume she wants to take the kids without me. I guess I just act like it is not a big deal, even though inside I want to be with my kids on vacation. She has not booked it but I doubt she will tell me when she does.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2472073#Post2472073My thread lock, here is what i last wrote...
Thanks for the honest feedback and pep talk. We left our convo with her insisting they were just friends and that they are commiserating with each other. Probably how it started obviously. I know she is lying but clearly my not believing her story set her off.
Last night, I went over to see some friends and came home around 9pm. She was in bed and did not really speak with me. After 10 min of me in bed with her. she took her book and slept downstairs on the couch. This morning, I saw her, said good morning and we chatted briefly about her and my day. I have work plans tonight, so I won't be home. I believe she will be in NYC Wed/Thr.
One thing that I know is that if we don't work on our R and M, and we do divorce with a lot of resentment and issues going unresolved, the kids will be hurt in the long run. They need two parents who can be parents together, even if they are divorced. Not parents with resentment towards each other. And we cannot work on that until she is honest with me and of course, drops the OM.
Not sure how I say that to her. I said most of that yesterday but not the point about our relationship post divorce. ANY ADVICE?
My goals for this week:
- find a therapist to help me with this M and my control issues
- speak with my DB coach today
- Find ways to GAL...I have seen some friends that past few nights, who have been super supportive. They said to come by whenever. It does help to chat with people about my sitch and just do something without her on my mind (tough to do)
I also need to get my mind ready for being a single/divorce parent. I need to detach from her.
The just friends is always a cover up for an EA. When I caught my wife last year, first she cries to me and says I love him I need to call and make sure he got home safely.
Then when I blocked his numbers on the cell phone I pay for she was crying and carrying on like a little girl whose BFF just moved.
Then of course I thought there was no contact etc..
Now she's back to the we are just good friends there is no PA. Meanwhile I know he thinks he's her husband and she has been spending crazy hours showing him around. Just good friends my arse!
Remember don't believe anything she tells you! I just tell you a little of my history so you can see how ridiculous they sound...but they all sound the same.
Oh and the Disney thing can be to just get you angry! Don't act like it bothers you.
Don't ask if you can go...believe me I learned this from experience...the best acting my WW did was on a family vacation two weeks after DD1 and 6 weeks before DD3!
sho,
I also need to get my mind ready for being a single/divorce parent.
Stinkin' thinkin'. Stop. No, you don't need to get your mind ready for being a single/divorced parent. You need to get your mind ready to fight for your family.
One thing that I know is that if we don't work on our R and M, and we do divorce with a lot of resentment and issues going unresolved, the kids will be hurt in the long run. They need two parents who can be parents together, even if they are divorced. Not parents with resentment towards each other. And we cannot work on that until she is honest with me and of course, drops the OM.
Not sure how I say that to her.
You don't. You don't say anything AT ALL to her about your relationship right now. That time has passed. You also realize that you're projecting a lot up there. And you're thinking you're gonna fix this in a day. You won't. There's plenty of time here, sho. Plenty of time.
Last night, I went over to see some friends and came home around 9pm.
Perfect.
She was in bed and did not really speak with me. After 10 min of me in bed with her. she took her book and slept downstairs on the couch.
Give her space and room and time to pout. Stand your ground. And do not leave the marital bed.
my wife did a search for a disney cruise. I assume she wants to take the kids without me. I guess I just act like it is not a big deal, even though inside I want to be with my kids on vacation. She has not booked it but I doubt she will tell me when she does.
Stinkin' thinkin'. And LOTS of assumptions. Assumptions are not your friend. Let this play out. Ignore it. Don't say anything at all about it right now. Let her bring it up.
you are right, I am just feeling sorry for myself. I just don't want to lose my family.
I understand. I'm sorry you're having to go through this, sho.
You stand the best chance of keeping your family together by being right here.
Stay strong.
I just don't want to lose my family.
That is entirely within your control. You won't lose your family if you don't want to.
It may look different, but you won't lose it.
I spoke with my DB coach today.
Her advice
- keep things non-emotional (reverse of what I did yesterday
- give her space
- if she wants to talk, just listen
- GAL and be a bit mysterious
- show her my good qualities
- Detach: this is her journey, not mine
- be pleasant, act as if
- the best thing to do is to NOT do certain things...look at what has not worked and DO NOT do them again
- create a safe environment for her to come back to (if she wants)
- be kind and decent, don't give her a reason to think I am argumentative or controlling
- really work on what is and is not controlling. Do not think that I actually understand this. I clearly do not understand it and need to work on it
I spoke with my DB coach today.
Her advice
- keep things non-emotional (reverse of what I did yesterday
- give her space
- if she wants to talk, just listen
- GAL and be a bit mysterious
- show her my good qualities
- Detach: this is her journey, not mine
- be pleasant, act as if
- the best thing to do is to NOT do certain things...look at what has not worked and DO NOT do them again
- create a safe environment for her to come back to (if she wants)
- be kind and decent, don't give her a reason to think I am argumentative or controlling
- really work on what is and is not controlling. Do not think that I actually understand this. I clearly do not understand it and need to work on it
All this works!
Believe me I have really Been focused on all of these things myself and the MC says the WAS has noticed!l
Just keep doing it...I was and also am somewhat controlling...this is the hardest thing to change.
The best feeling is when the spouse you thought was looking for a divorce comes to you and says:
" why are you acting this way? Why did you not be like this before...I think I need to see a counselor (or coach) I am so so conflicted"
At least those quoted words can make you feel like you have made some progress and there is hope after all!
Ox
She was saying that ("you are fun", "who is this guy, i feel like I am married to a stranger", and "why did it take me doing what I am doing to make you change") for the past several weeks. But she never said she wanted to see an MC or IC.
However, once I found out about the A (I figured this out 8 days ago), my emotions got the better of me. She was not happy that I broke into her phone, not happy that I told her that she was lying, not happy that i figured this out, etc. So I definitely set myself back from the changes that she saw. I wish that I handled better my encounter with her yesterday.
Ox
She was saying that ("you are fun", "who is this guy, i feel like I am married to a stranger", and "why did it take me doing what I am doing to make you change") for the past several weeks. But she never said she wanted to see an MC or IC.
However, once I found out about the A (I figured this out 8 days ago), my emotions got the better of me. She was not happy that I broke into her phone, not happy that I told her that she was lying, not happy that i figured this out, etc. So I definitely set myself back from the changes that she saw. I wish that I handled better my encounter with her yesterday.
You didn't set yourself back, you just put a crack in the fantasy world she was living in. She now has consequences (if you enforce your boundaries) to her actions. Until now, it was just a lovely world where all her needs were being met, from multiple people. Now that you have crashed this world, she is mad.
Ox
She was saying that ("you are fun", "who is this guy, i feel like I am married to a stranger", and "why did it take me doing what I am doing to make you change") for the past several weeks. But she never said she wanted to see an MC or IC.
However, once I found out about the A (I figured this out 8 days ago), my emotions got the better of me. She was not happy that I broke into her phone, not happy that I told her that she was lying, not happy that i figured this out, etc. So I definitely set myself back from the changes that she saw. I wish that I handled better my encounter with her yesterday.
Your a lot like me. We react badly and then we over think what we did and wish we can take it back.
Believe me, what you have is that you found this site early in your Sitch.
Had I followed these principles last July when I caught my wife in a borderline
EA/over the top friendship when she was most confused and vulnerable, I really believe things would have not gone this far out of control.
By the time I stopped the attacks and the "Circle talking" she had ran away with the OM. He had her convinced if she came home I would do something bad to her.
I think I am at the 50/50 mark right now. The OM has shown his colors quite a bit this past week.
As they keep saying this is a marathon, just learn from your mistakes.
The hardest for me has not been changing my behaviors toward my WW its been obsessing about her and the OM.
"We left our convo with her insisting they were just friends and that they are commiserating with each other. Probably how it started obviously. I know she is lying but clearly my not believing her story set her off"
My W used exact same line to hide her PA affair for four month without thinking of the damage her affair was doing to our family. It took time, luck, some Snooping and her carelessness for me to find out the truth. I was lucky to find her secret affair cell phone in her overnight bag during one of her visit home.
Going by the call log and text, W got the cell phone three weeks into the affair, but took me four month to find out about it. My mouth was wild open reading the texts. I was devastated and shocked going through over 600 text messages in one week between her and OM. The messages between them should have been rated PG 13 by ATT lol. Keep your eyes wild open man!
Now is the the time to take of shodan. focus your time and energy on you. Work on whatever need to be fix in your life and spend your free time with your kids. It work for me and can also work for you.
Lost
Thank you for your advice. I know she is having a PA and she knows I know it. She just needs to admit to it.
How are things in your sitch?
Per DB, I am focusing on me and becoming a husband only a fool would leave. Right now, I know she needs space. She needs to think. My wife is going through a MLC (turned 40, father just died, trying to juggle a very demanding job with being a good mom, coaching sports, etc.). This A is an escape for her from the stress of life. I recognize that things have not been great in our M, but they were not terrible either. It is totally salvageable, but she needs to want to save it.
Today was an interesting morning. I brought my wife her coffee (something that I decided that I would continue to do) and asked how she was feeling (she has been pretty sick lately and also hurt her back, which she usually hurts when she is stressed). She said "do you mean physically or mentally?" I said "either, both." She started to talk about work, the people who were stressing her out and that a friend who recently recovered from cancer wanted to meet for coffee today. She said "that really shows you what life is all about, I am not that important, it is just a job." She started crying a bit, so I sat down on the bed to listen. She continued talking about stress from a client, stress that someone on her team is creating for her, etc. I just listened for 10 min and then she went to yoga.
So what does this have to do with me/Shodan...I did not tell her how to handle her issues, I listened, nodded, confirmed her feelings and just was present in the moment.
Other things that I am doing...I called to therapist to get an appt to discuss my controlling behavior (neither has called back yet), have my next guitar lesson on Thursday and am taking my son to Yankees/Red Sox on Saturday. My S7 is OBSESSED with baseball so the expense of the tickets is totally worth it.
Keep focus on the prize, keep focusing on me, and rock on.
so i am taking action against my list from the DB coach
- keep things non-emotional (reverse of what I did yesterday smile....JUST WILL CONTINUE TO WORK ON THIS
- give her space...TOUGH WHEN WE SHARE THE SAME HOUSE BUT ONLY TEXTING ABOUT KIDS STUFF
- if she wants to talk, just listen...I DID THAT THIS MORNING
- GAL and be a bit mysterious...THIS SEEMS TO ANNOY HER WHEN I DO THIS...I DID IT SUNDAY NIGHT AND WAS OUT LAST NIGHT FOR A WORK EVENT (I HAD TOLD HER ABOUT THAT)
- show her my good qualities...I HAVE BEEN DOING THAT EVERYDAY, BEING A GREAT DAD, BEING POSITIVE
- Detach: this is her journey, not mine
- be pleasant, act as if...I DID THIS LAST NIGHT, CAME IN, ASK HOW HER EVENING WAS, ASKED ABOUT THE KIDS, BUT DID NOT MENTION THE A OR ANYTHING ELSE
- the best thing to do is to NOT do certain things...look at what has not worked and DO NOT do them again
- create a safe environment for her to come back to (if she wants)...I THINK I WILL CREATE THIS BY NOT PUTTING PRESSURE ON HER, GIVING HER SPACE
- be kind and decent, don't give her a reason to think I am argumentative or controlling...SAME AS ABOVE
- really work on what is and is not controlling. Do not think that I actually understand this. I clearly do not understand it and need to work on it...I AM SCHEDULED TO SEE A THERAPIST ON FRIDAY
so i am taking action against my list from the DB coach
- keep things non-emotional (reverse of what I did yesterday smile....JUST WILL CONTINUE TO WORK ON THIS
- give her space...TOUGH WHEN WE SHARE THE SAME HOUSE BUT ONLY TEXTING ABOUT KIDS STUFF
- if she wants to talk, just listen...I DID THAT THIS MORNING
- GAL and be a bit mysterious...THIS SEEMS TO ANNOY HER WHEN I DO THIS...I DID IT SUNDAY NIGHT AND WAS OUT LAST NIGHT FOR A WORK EVENT (I HAD TOLD HER ABOUT THAT)
- show her my good qualities...I HAVE BEEN DOING THAT EVERYDAY, BEING A GREAT DAD, BEING POSITIVE
- Detach: this is her journey, not mine
- be pleasant, act as if...I DID THIS LAST NIGHT, CAME IN, ASK HOW HER EVENING WAS, ASKED ABOUT THE KIDS, BUT DID NOT MENTION THE A OR ANYTHING ELSE
- the best thing to do is to NOT do certain things...look at what has not worked and DO NOT do them again
- create a safe environment for her to come back to (if she wants)...I THINK I WILL CREATE THIS BY NOT PUTTING PRESSURE ON HER, GIVING HER SPACE
- be kind and decent, don't give her a reason to think I am argumentative or controlling...SAME AS ABOVE
- really work on what is and is not controlling. Do not think that I actually understand this. I clearly do not understand it and need to work on it...I AM SCHEDULED TO SEE A THERAPIST ON FRIDAY
Keep in mind that you should not pursue her, let her come to you. That is one item I have been really good at. I find this really helps a lot. Because when she comes to you, to talk, to give you a kiss , to whatever, it's because she wants to.
I found when she did even positive actions and I had pursued her, I would question in my brain if it was genuine or to appease me. WHY PUT YOURSELF through those emotions.
I also recommend that you don't try to figure out her emotions especially if she snaps at you or is a little standoffish . That really can cause resentment and anger to build up. The one thing Mr. bond kept getting on me about was that some of my comments to WW where out of anger. Drop the anger...
Remember, sho, to find that line between listening to her "controlling" complaints ... and becoming her "gay boyfriend."
It will be easy (and, frankly, natural) for her to accuse you of being "controlling" when, in actuality, you are laying down healthy boundaries to protect your heart and your family.
Stay STRONG.
Remember, sho, to find that line between listening to her "controlling" complaints ... and becoming her "gay boyfriend."
It will be easy (and, frankly, natural) for her to accuse you of being "controlling" when, in actuality, you are laying down healthy boundaries to protect your heart and your family.
Stay STRONG.
Hey Train,
Sho and me are quite similar.
This is where I have a hard time. I am so much trying to not be a wee bit controlling as is Sho.
How do we react when we lay down a boundary and the WW claims we are being controlling or worse Passive Aggressive?
Definitely not looking to be the gay roommate.
Here is why I am looking for advice. I spoke with my MIL (she knows about the D announcement, I told her after she pressed me a ton on it). She told me that she has noticed my controlling ways for years and that I can have a bad temper about the smallest things. She even once said something to my W about it. I have yelled at my kids for things to the point where my D10 cried to my MIL about it (not sure how long ago this was). She said to my MIL that she must be a bad girl since "my dad always yells at me." I never realized that I was this bad. My heart broke when I heard this news.
Therefore, it sounds like my anger and control issues go WAY back and are pretty deep issues for my W (based on what my MIL said). Does that mean I ignore the A? No. I already told her that I do not want to live in an open M. But I need to be extra diligent to show her that I am a changed man (I really am..nothing like your W filing for D to make you change your habits, no matter how deeply engrained).
Yeah, gay
roommate! Lol.
I can only speak from my own experience. But first, I think Starsky gave the best example of this on another thread just today:
"You need to end your affair." <- Controlling.
"I will not live in an open M." <- Healthy boundary.
At first, I was trying to meet my H's needs as much as possible - to be his "friend" and to attract him back to me by being nice and sweet and validating. I was trying to placate a H who was
actively cheating on me. I was trying to meet his needs
while he was having his needs met by another woman. The ONLY thing that did was hurt ME.
Later, I decided to lovingly detach from my H, allowing OW to meet ALL his needs. I placed boundaries around my heart and family. And I focused on me and my changes. I was still friendly, for the most part, with H. But I didn't even talk to him enough to validate his feelings or give him the impression I would be his friend while he was betraying me in such a way.
Look, guys, here's the thing: if you hear your W make a complaint, and it's one that stings, then it's probably legit. So, sho, if you think you're too controlling,
by ALL means work on that.
But don't confuse yourself there. You aren't being controlling by looking on marital property to establish if your W is having an A. That MATTERS. Not only to your emotional health but your
physical health if you have ML (or if you're STILL ML, which I would not recommend. Obviously.). I'm not saying to snoop. I did. Until I found the proof I needed. And then I stopped because H had moved out, and snooping only hurt me.
It is not controlling to say, "I will not live in an open marriage," and then to take steps to make sure you AREN'T living in one if your W doesn't end her A.
It's also, I'll repeat, way too easy and convenient for a WW to call boundaries "controlling." And she'll do this so that you back off your more firm stance. I would strongly encourage you not to fall for it.
Does any of this make sense?
Starsky, can you clarify this better? It takes me two words to say what you say in one.
sho, what does "not being controlling" look like to you? Paint me a picture of that in words, can you?
It's also, I'll repeat, way too easy and convenient for a WW to call boundaries "controlling." And she'll do this so that you back off your more firm stance.
It's her hole-card, and she knows it WORKS. Expect her to play it over and over and over again now.
The "things that DON'T sting" need to be IGNORED, as you press on with a strong stance. The "things that DO sting" you accept and deflect back, thusly: "I agree, that's something I've needed to work on. End your affair and come back and work on the marriage with me and I think you'll find me more than willing to address that, as well as my other contributions to our prior marital dysfunction."
You AGREE (if it's one that's true), but you bounce it right back, where it belongs. "Hey, I intend to work on that, and in fact I already am. I want to do that for ME, regardless, because it's the right thing to do. But I'm still not willing to live in an open marriage, or even discuss the marriage with you as long as you've unilaterally invited a 3rd person into it."
not being controlling...what does that mean?
- not getting angry or losing my temper
- not dictating what my wife does, where she goes, etc.
- not worrying about schedules, if my wife is late, etc.
- if my wife takes the kids somewhere, I just say "cool, have fun"
- if we were actually talking...just giving her a voice in our family, not criticizing her for decisions that she makes, giving her freedom to make bad decisions and mistakes
Really just posting this here for others following along, as I get the distinct impression you don't want to hear any of this, Sho, but there was an old poster here named Jayne who gave the best description of "boundaries" vs. "controlling" that I think I've ever seen:
Jayne, on “boundaries”:
Think about boundaries like this:
Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, because boundaries are about drawing "circles" around *you* and determining what you will and won't allow inside that circle.
Your wife can do whatever she wants OUTSIDE that circle. You are not telling her what to do.
But you will only let into that circle people who treat you with respect.
She's free to go on treating you with disrespect, but you won't know about it because she'll be outside your circle. She's free to go on and draw her own boundaries of no expectations and no responsibilities, outside your circle.
She can do WHATEVER she wants. She's a free person, free to make WHATEVER choices she wants.
BUT SO ARE YOU, and you are free to choose who to allow within your circle.
That's all. Not about trying to control her at all. Tell her she's totally free. She has the WHOLE WORLD, outside your circle, to go and do whatever she wants.
If she's saying you have to let her into your circle no matter what, then THAT is about HER controlling YOU.
Starsky
Thanks for this feedback. I know I am being dense. Only one week into this.
She knows that I don't approve of the A. Already said that to her Sunday about not living in an open M. Told her that I was committed to our M and our family but that she needed to end the A. As mentioned, she denied it. Said they were friends. Of course I know better.
So really all I can do is detach. Be a great dad. Be a great friend. Focus on me. Go to therapy. Read books on being a better husband.
Funny aside...I have read 30-40 books on martial arts (and watched countless youtube videos) but I never read a single book about being a better husband (or parent). I even read two books on how to train a dog. So I cannot be shocked that I am great at martial arts, can defend myself against multiple attackers, know how to break arms, joints, and choke people and have a dog that is "somewhat" trained but have a marriage where my wife is having A and wants a d. I truly recognize the irony in this.
Starsky
Thanks for this feedback. I know I am being dense. Only one week into this.
I know, and trust me, I am NOT trying to be a hardass here. This is going to take a long, concerted effort if you are going to be able to pull this off (and ultimately it will be mostly your wife's decision anyway, not yours) . . .and it IS very early in the process . . .
it's just that . . .
You only get ONE (ok, maybe two or three, but not many) "1st chances" at getting the TACK right. And I sense from you the past few days that after a couple of "YOU'RE SO CONTROLLING!" potshots from your wayward wife, you feel that it was a mistake to end your "Plan A" pursuit of her?
I could be wrong.
Her coming home seemed, to me anyway, to totally throw you for a loop, and throw you off your game. I think you need to get your mojo back.
Just my opinion.
Starsky
Mojo back, 10-4
kick me in the a%% whenever i need it
P.S.
You DO need to be reading up on self-improvement and even marital self-improvement books . . . but the marital ones are for future use, if and when your wife decides to end her affair and give you a 2nd shot at your marriage. NOT to be used to PURSUE her right now, or "show her that I've changed."
SUPPLICATION DOESN'T WORK in these things. She SAW the softer side of Sho for 6-7 weeks; now she needs to see that that man also has healthy limits and boundaries, and values himself enough to even possibly lose her over them if she doesn't end what she's doing.
kick me in the a%% whenever i need it
Oh, I'm never shy about *that*
now she needs to see that that man also has healthy limits and boundaries, and values himself enough to even possibly lose her over them if she doesn't end what she's doing.
This^
And keep in mind, she may not come back. That is the reason for learning to do things for yourself, and to become the better person for yourself.
Update on my past week...my W and I spoke on Sunday morning about the A and her lying (see past posts). I went out that night and saw some friends. The next night I went out again, but she called me to ask where I was. I told her I was running errands (I actually was) and seeing some friends. She asked if we could talk. So I went home. She got mad at me for linking in with some of her work friends (I had done this recently in case I needed to contact them to verify things my wife had said). She was very upset by this and asked if I was trying to get her fired.
She calmed down and she went off about the changes that I had made and how she was upset that it took her saying that she wanted a divorce for me to change. She continued to say that she doubts my changes will stick and that breaking into her phone demonstrated the life that lies ahead for her: a man who controls her. I reiterated that I am committed to this M, to our family and to our kids. But we need to have an honest and open marriage with no secrets in order to move forward. I did not “accuse” of the affair. I wanted to stay away from anything getting emotional.
Wednesday she called me as she was on her way to the airport. She had been planning to fly out Thursday and do a day trip, but her meetings were moved up to 8am, so she needed to leave early. She said work was stressing her out and that she needed a vacation. She texted me when she landed and even facetimed with the kids and me. She caught an early flight back Thursday and asked if I wanted to go to yoga with her. I should have GAL’ed but I said yes. After yoga, we sat and talked on the porch about life in general, nothing about our R. She talked more about NYC and why she likes it there but also said that NYC without kids is not reality. She knows where we live now is the best place for the kids. She said maybe she would do this job until the end of the year and then try to be more Boston based after that.
Saturday she was out with my D all day, and I was out with my S. I took him to the Red Sox game but then met my W for a concert with my D (my D wanted me to go). I did not want to disappoint her. My W and I did not sit/stand near each other. Sunday she went out early with the dog. I did not ask where she was. When she got back, she asked if I wanted to go to Yoga with her later in the day. Again, I decided to say yes. Maybe I should not have but it did allow us to just somewhat connect. We talked about the stress triggers in our life: kids, work, schedules, dog, a fairly incompetent nanny, etc..
So did I fully detach? Nope. But I did a little bit. Frankly, it is so hard to detach from someone whom I love so much. Did I GAL a bit? Yes. I went out a couple of nights. Did I buy some new cologne and some new clothes? Yes.
What lies ahead this week...I am taking my dad to dinner tonight so will be late. Tomorrow I may go out but need to connect with a friend about it. Wednesday I believe that she is traveling to NYC and Thursday I have a work party. Friday my W leaves for Colorado on a trip for a surprise 40th for a friend (I know this is not a lie). So we won't see each other this much this week anyway, which will give her the space that she needs.
Sho,
I'm glad you guys are keeping things calm and civil, especially around the kids. Just an immediate pointer (that I think you already know):
That's THREE TIMES in just one week where she called, and you immediately responded -- including an "can we R talk?" request. It's important for you to NOT be at her beckon call during this stage! Mix it up -- respond occasionally, especially if it's a "me and the kids are doing ______, would you like to join us?" thing. But to her first "can we talk?" you should have replied "Not a good time; how about (and then suggest day after tomorrow)?" You are busy GALing, and not waiting around for her . . . remember?
Also, this is several times now that your wife has indicated that she's afraid you're going to "lord it (her affair) over her" if she returns to the marriage. Somehow, you have got to simultaneously continue to enforce your strong boundaries about being in a marriage where she is in contact with another man and then lying about it, WHILE communicating a CREDIBLE stance of "I can forgive your affair, if only you would end it -- now -- and come back and work on the marriage with me."
Right now, I see a woman whose OM is Plan A, and who is trying to keep her husband placated as her Plan B.
Finally, when she brings up her being angry that "NOW you make these changes!" . . . OWN THAT CHIT. "I know, I understand -- it shouldn't have taken the threat of a divorce for me to hear you, and to make some of the changes I know I need to make. All I can tell you is I GET IT, and I HEAR you, and at this point I'm making these changes for ME because I know there are things I need to work on in my next relationship. I HOPE that's with you, in some sort of brand-new marriage, but I'm intent on doing this regardless."
Or something like that, or even much shorter.
I can't stress to you enough, at this stage your wife needs to feel like she's losing you as her fallback position. She needs to feel a sense of "Oh crap, I've gone too far, Sho is NOT on board with this anymore, and he even seems to be capable of being the kind of husband I've been wanting, but he is NOT going to hang around forever while I figure this stuff out."
I don't see her feeling AT ALL that she may lose you. Now, she may not CARE if she does -- that's all going to depend on what kind of husband you were before, what kind of shared history you two legitimately have, and what her reaction is to everything you did for that 6-7 weeks during your "Show her a Better Sho" phase. But it's also your only shot.
Starsky
[quote][/quote]
Sho,
Finally, when she brings up her being angry that "NOW you make these changes!" . . . OWN THAT CHIT. "I know, I understand -- it shouldn't have taken the threat of a divorce for me to hear you, and to make some of the changes I know I need to make. All I can tell you is I GET IT, and I HEAR you, and at this point I'm making these changes for ME because I know there are things I need to work on in my next relationship. I HOPE that's with you, in some sort of brand-new marriage, but I'm intent on doing this regardless."
I responded just like this. She gets it.
And I hear you about GALing and not responding. I need to be stronger about that.
Sorry to crash your thread Sho,
It seems like you and I are dealing with same kinda stuff except my W and I are not sleeping in the same bed.
I like the advice Starsky is giving you. Now How to implement it better is the problem I have said all those things to my W that you said above and it just seems to make her madder.
Starsky, Maybe you could take a look at my thread and see how my and Sho's sitchs are the same and how they are different and offer some advice to me?
Sho, Sorry again for crashing.
Agree, I need to set my boundaries. I am not around tonight. Tomorrow I plan to go see a friend so I won't be around either. Today, I also told my W that I am booking a vacation with our kids in two weeks. She is taking off the following week and said she had not planned to be out for that week (would be two weeks out of the office if she did). I just want to show her that life is moving on with or without her.
What has changed in things she has said to me...she no longer wants to move to NYC. She said if she were single or if it was just the two of us, she would go. But with kids, that is a different story. She said it is not the right move for them. She also commented that her company has not provided her with a relo package and she knows they won't offer much more money, so it is not worth it.
What does this mean to me? I have no idea, so I won't even begin to project or try to get in her head. What I am writing this here then? Just to document it.
GALing and detaching has been very hard. No matter how much I try, I think about my W. At the work party last night, which my W did not attend, everyone was asking about her, commenting about my kids (who were not there but the people have met them many times) and how great my family is. All I wanted to do was cry. I kept thinking about her. It s*cks.
any advice out there? I know I need to move forward, but I am struggling. I know I need to detach, but I think about her and all of the fun we have all of the time. I look at her and want to hug her. Pathetic.... since she had or is having an A.
Where I struggle is by detaching, I feel like I am giving up on us.
I'm sorry, sho -- I can feel your pain oozing from your post. This makes me really sad for you and especially for your kids.
I'm not sure I have any specific advice I can give you, as to be honest I cannot relate. While I still loved my wife and wanted to reconcile while she was having her affair, I felt a lot more ANGER than I did wanting to hug her. Maybe it was the daily intel I was monitoring, but I had a much harder time with the "loving" half of "loving detachment" than I did the "detachment" part.
But you are NOT giving up by detaching! It is simultaneously the best way to protect YOURSELF while also giving you the best chance of re-attracting your wife. "Moving on" does NOT equal "giving up."
Try to hang in there,
Starsky
While I still loved my wife and wanted to reconcile while she was having her affair, I felt a lot more ANGER than I did wanting to hug her. Maybe it was the daily intel I was monitoring, but I had a much harder time with the "loving" half of "loving detachment" than I did the "detachment" part.
Same here.
Find the anger. Embrace it. And fight for your M and family, sho.
I felt a lot more ANGER than I did wanting to hug her. Maybe it was the daily intel I was monitoring, but I had a much harder time with the "loving" half of "loving detachment" than I did the "detachment" part.
Man, do I relate to this. I feel like the loving half is impossible but because of that I'm learning so much about myself and my tendencies. So the only way in know how to detach us to be cold and angry? I can do better and so can you!!
Hang in there!!
Well, i did finally figure out how much she tallied on her credit card (she got her own CC that must go to her work about two months ago). I found it in her wallet after I did not see a big charge come through on our shared card. The check cleared to pay the bill....$5K+. so yes, my wife is funding her affair with our/my money. Lovely. I am a bit pi%%ed to say the least.
my anger is definitely growing b/c she is destroying our family. Her mom is beside herself and so sad (she knows about the BD and the A b/c I told her). She keeps saying that she has lost her daughter.
I need to keep this anger growing but still stay "loving", which seems somewhat illogical.
Another question...i am taking my kids to the cape next week. I booked us a nice hotel and am looking forward to the vacation. My W wants to come for part of it (she has to work for 3 of the 7 days). I know my kids want her there, but I feel this is cake eating. Should I be blunt and just say "until you are being honest with me and our family about what has been happening in NYC, you should not come with us."
Hi Shodan, first you have to protect yourself financially. Close the shared credit card. Yes, financial irresponsibility, even stealing is something I have seen in my sitch also.
I think you have the right idea about not letting your W go on the vacation at the cape. But I wouldn't mention what's "happening in NYC". Instead, I would say something along the lines of "I will not be with you on a vacation while you have made the choices you are making." Leave it vague and without any detail, and let her imagination fill in the details. Make this more about a boundary you are drawing, than about specific actions she did in NYC. I hope this helps.
Why did you book the trip to the Cape? Seems punitive. If it was just you, no question, but it comes across as if the kids are weapons.
The trip was not punitive. I needed some time off. My wife is taking the following week off. I actually wanted it to be a family vacation where we could just be as a family. I was feeling soft and trying to be Plan A. My MIL even said that I should focus on what brought us together and show her a great future. But with all of the lies and deceit just piling on, it now seems like a bad decision on my part. I really s**k at this detaching thing.
shared CC: unfortunately, i don't have access to the card that she now has. When I asked about it, she said it was another example of me being controlling. So outside of filing a D and getting a freeze/restraining order on our assets, I am not sure what i can do. Spouses can have their own credit cards and bank accounts.
Sho, I am in a similar situation. Although my waw has admitted to her A she is still ambivalent, at best, on our M. We have 2 kids and I am also having a very hard time detaching. I am constantly reminded of the good times we had because we have been together since age 13. It's still hard for me to accept that she doesn't love me the way I love her. I have been following your situation and it has given me strength knowing that I am not losing my mind. The pain is so intense that it's hard to think about anything but her.
Someone gave me some good advice recently. If you want to kill your wife's attraction for you then reach out to her. If your goal is to repulse your wife then pursue her. These 2 sentences have helped me to back off big time. I have been telling more of my friends who have been incredibly supportive. So, in my efforts to stop pursuing, when I get the urge to reach out, I call one of them instead. We don't need to file for D right now. We need to really execute the 180 first. Let them feel what life is like without us. Let them see us getting stronger and happier without them. Let them see that they are losing their power to hurt us. Let them realize that they are losing the control that they take for granted.
The other thing that has helped me is to realize that we are in a war right now. An emotional war with our spouses. My waw said something to me the other day that pissed me off and woke me up. She was upset that I had exposed her A to one of my friends. She accused me of making it seem like I was dumping her and said; "We both know that if I wanted this marriage to work that we would be together." She has all of the power and she knows it. She is convinced that plan B (me) will be here waiting if things dont work out with whatever she has as plan A. It hit me like a brick that I need to change that right away. Her strength comes from my weakness. I am giving our relationship 100% of my effort and attention so she has to give ZERO. I need to match her investment. I need to show her that we can BOTH walk away and start a new life. But we need to mean it too. It cannot be a bluff. Starsky and the others are right, we need to harness the anger and embrace the fact that starting over with someone new is better than being anyone's plan B. Sho, we are not plan B material. We were good husbands and fathers. We were not perfect but neither were our waw. They made the decision to cheat, not us. We are not responsible for their bad behavior. We deserve to be loved, respected and appreciated as equals. Anything less is unacceptable and demeaning.
My waw has hit me with both barrels but I am still standing. She emotionally abandoned me when I needed her most. She betrayed me by having an A and bringing him into our home. She is rejecting me even though her A is supposedly over. What more can she do to me? However, I have just begun to fight back. What will she feel when she realizes that I am not a given? When I find someone else? Maybe a younger woman? Maybe a woman with a successful career? Maybe both or one of each? It will be interesting to see if she can take it as well as she can dish it out.
onguard, thanks for the pep talk. My mood definitely sways with the winds. Some hours I am good, and then in others I am sad. I am trying to detach and just have fun. i read through your thread and agree that we have very similar sitchs. I know that I need to back off, which I do from time to time. but not all of the time. I just need to do it more and show her that I am moving forward.
Right now, she has no remorse and won't even admit to the A.
I struggle with finding friends with whom I can share this issue. If I tell them about the D and the A, I feel like they will judge my W and then she will find out and we will never get back together. But, I need people with whom I can share my feelings. The other issue I am having with GALing is everyone I know is married. All of my friends are married. So to ask them to get some beers on a Friday night will seem odd unless I share with them my switch. But I am not sure I want to do that at this time.
you are right, I am just feeling sorry for myself. I just don't want to lose my family.
I promise I will read your entire thread but I saw your comment about wanting to force your wife to agree to things she clearly will NOT agree to now.
Don't corner her when it's a no win situation. You won't like the choice you force upon her and even if she somehow "woke up" b/c you forced her to, you'll be right back here soon.
SHE has to make these choices and you cannot force her to. You are trying very hard to control things & people you have no control over.
Instead, figure out why she prefers OM (and that's assuming you are 100% correct in your A assumptions) and stop talking about him AT ALL.
Be the better choice. Become a man only a fool would leave.
Stop snooping and the stinking thinking has to be halted or you'll go nuts.
The more you challenge her choices, the more you force her to defend them. That just cements those in her mind and heart.
Back off.
GAL
and I mean that with all my heart. GAL is mandatory to detach and detachment is needed for your own health.
Your kids are watching you and someday they will face a setback or betrayal.
Show them how a man of strength and honor handles a blow to his heart and ego.
Show them that although your pain is deep, it's NOT fatal and it's NOT eternal.
you will be happy again b/c you are responsible for your own happiness, just as they will be responsible for theirs.
Make sense?
Onguard,
just curious --have you read the Div Busting or Div Remedy books?
There is advice AGAINST exposure and I've never seen it work. A guy around here claims it worked for him but I don't know the details, i only know that it is NOT a practice advocated by MWD for Divorce Busting. There are many reasons for that if you are interested...
But really, I just suggest you choose AN approach and give it a fair shot,(= sufficient time) before giving up or mixing it up with another one, or mixing them together (which is unfair to both approaches).
Just my .02
Sho,
I have read your whole thread (Of course, it's familiar b/c I read it a week or so ago.)
You have gotten great a dice from your DB coach. Anything new there?
Also, I think your wife's comments about having LESS interest in NYC is darn positive. She's admitting work stresses her (which sounds true), she is at least saying and acting as if the kids are her priority, and those are positives.
She's also NOT asking you or the kids to move to NYC. To me that is huge.
As for her saying "Oh, I see the real you now!" when she sees your temper or snooping, sure there are valid reasons to doubt everything she says b/c of the A
but then, you need to communicate in some form...
(I know you have your A "proof" but other than the text and a trip somewhere with someone other than she said she was with, what is there? I'm not saying to draw a diagram, but how sure are you that it's an all out "soul mate/love of my life" affair?)
I MAY be in the minority here, but as annoying as lying is,
I see the lying about it a lot more favorable to you than her declaring "OM's the best man I ever met, My first real love, and..." blah blah blah.
And how do you know if it isn't fizzling out all by itself? Just throwing that out...
oh, and she probably won't come and say "I stopped the affair --the A I denied having."
But she MAY come out and say "let's work on the M".
If you still want to insist on getting her to admit to the A, I'm not sure what your benefit would be other than proving her wrong or feeling "right".
I DO understand your desire to have everything out in the open; I really do.
I'm merely suggesting you figure out all the reasons
for that IF she wants to stay m to you for real anyhow.
Why not run that^^ by your DB coach?
Also, your MIL's comments to you about your d and how She feels she "must not be a good girl" b/c of your criticisms, well Sho, it did break my heart. I know you were stung by that too and I feel for you. Ouch.
But don't minimize how that feels to a mother. It kills love pretty fast.
(Much as I hate having to say this, I know someone will pipe in about your wife's affair, b/c somehow they'll believe if someone gives you feedback about YOUR behavior, it amounts to defining your w's A. But No, I'm not defending it and indeed, I'm not even talking about the A. I'm saying there are factors at play here other than OM. He's a symptom not a cause.)
You have been doing some great personal work, and I hope you'll stay the course b/c it will pay off, regardless of your w's choices.
The very good news is that as your w sees you becoming a more loving father, she will be touched. Absolutely. To mothers, it's a turn on to see the children lovingly interact with their father. For many, that in itself is a reason to marry or stay married to a specific man.
That's why it's key to keep working on that. (B/C if you are, arguably or actually, destructive to your d, that's a handle you don't want your w to grab onto.
I don't want to think about what I'd have to do IF I really believed my h had a temper that was hurting our children, and he did not change it. Yikes...
Of course all your kids need you, but a kid who wondered if she was "good enough" for her dad b/c of his remarks to her, she really really needs to hear you tell her some good authentic things about her.
I know you've been working on that and it'll show.
And dont' worry about "showing" your w that. Your d will tell her!
Plus it'll show in your d, and the way you two interact, and your w WILL BE AFFECTED, no matter what she says (or does not say.)
Agree, I need to set my boundaries. I am not around tonight. Tomorrow I plan to go see a friend so I won't be around either. Today, I also told my W that I am booking a vacation with our kids in two weeks. She is taking off the following week and said she had not planned to be out for that week (would be two weeks out of the office if she did). I just want to show her that life is moving on with or without her.
What has changed in things she has said to me...she no longer wants to move to NYC. She said if she were single or if it was just the two of us, she would go. But with kids, that is a different story. She said it is not the right move for them. She also commented that her company has not provided her with a relo package and she knows they won't offer much more money, so it is not worth it.
What does this mean to me? I have no idea, so I won't even begin to project or try to get in her head. What I am writing this here then? Just to document it.
I think it's fair to say it's NOT BAD NEWS FOR YOU...
and in my opinion, it's good news. I think it's pivotal, but no, not yet a slam dunk. Your changes were needed, and I'm amazed at what a fast learner you are AND at how bravely you have listened to some feedback that a lot of us would have turned from (like your MIL's comments).
So in a way, this could be the best thing that ever happened to you.
I know how ironic^^ that sounds. I'm just telling you that the worst experience of my life was, in the end, a turning point for me in becoming a much better parent and wife, and much less of a bitter person.
If my h had not had his awakening I think those things would still be true.
So there's that. I hope you'll stay the course with your DB coach and keep at this. Good luck
.
25mlc
thank you for reading my thread and providing advice and input. A lot to comment on:
re: my parenting...my W and pretty much everyone I know will say that I am a great father. I have had temper issues for sure, but I have devoted the last 10 years (since my d was born) to my family. But, I have room for improvement. I spoke with my d about the incident that my MIL mentioned and she did not remember it at all. I pulled her and my son aside and told them about the changes that I am making and asked for their forgiveness. They both have commented that they love the new me. I joke that "new" dad is cool if they do X but "old" dad probably would not have allowed it. The funny thing is that my W and I seemed to have switched roles (and personalities). She is more strict with the kids, more impatient, etc.
re: becoming the man only a fool would leave...I know that I am showing this. Every once in a while I tell my wife that we have a great chance at a second marriage but together. I referred to myself as her second husband. She even has used this from time to time, once when we took the dog for a walk and my W brought a glass of wine with her. She said "my first husband would never have allowed this."
re: the A...I don't want my W to admit to the A so I can be right. and I know it is an A. The text was VERY EXPLICIT. She has lied several times about places where she supposedly was that I have proven was not the case. I want her to stop the A and agree to some changes so we can work on our M. Specifically, she agrees to give me the code to her phone, she changes her phone number, she either cancels her new CC or puts it under our joint names and she provides to me detailed itineraries for when she travels. But why would she agree to that if she never had an A?
what is ironic is one of her best friends is D because her husband cheated on her (hookers and had a mistress on the side). The friend figured it out when she went on her husband's phone and read some text messages. My W of course thought this was totally appropriate at the time but I AM the cyber stalker when I do.
I also know my W is very stubborn and will not want to admit she is wrong. She is more likely to sweep this under the rug. But without full disclosure, how can I know she has ended the A?
re: detaching and GALing...this has been the hardest. We have kids. My W travels a lot. My friends are married with kids. I cannot actually go out three nights a week unless I want to pay for babysitters and not see my kids. They already comment that my W travels a lot and is not home a lot.
re: NYC...I want to view it as you outlined it. As a positive note, perhaps where she may have ended the A or is thinking about it. But, I also wonder if this is a cake eating oppty...live in Boston, "work" on the M and go to NYC 1-2 nights per week for work and for the A. Maybe she does not want us to move because it would end the A. It is a lot harder to have a secret A when your H is in the same city. Of course they could do secret rendezvous but it would not be as easy as they have it today.
re: my changes...i hit absolute rock bottom the night my W asked for the D. It is pretty easy to change your life when that happens. I have thanked my wife many times for what she said because I am a better man because of it. I know that I am a great husband. I know that I am a great father.
so where do I struggle...GALing and detaching. I took my first Brazilian Jiu JItsu class this weekend and may start that up b/c they offer morning classes. But I do miss my old dojo (similar yet different martial art) because I have good friends there. Friends in whom I would trust my heart and soul. But the classes are at night, which interferes with family time. I am doing a ton of stuff with my kids and not just sitting around. Once per week I find myself out for a work event (previously I would have come home to be with the kids or just gone to the dojo because I was so obsessed with practicing). I am thinking about getting some golf lessons. I may do that while I am on the cape. I have had two guitar lessons. These are all things that I enjoy but I am out meeting new people through it? Somewhat. But there still is a void.
My W gets back tonight from her girl's weekend. I have not texted her directly all weekend but have responded to a text or two. She asked what my S and I have been doing, for example. She probably will be back in NYC for one night this week and I know will be there for 1-2 nights the following week. she has legitimate work reasons to be there, I know that. But, she also has the OM there as well.
Should I ask her about the $5K AMEX bill? I know it will just start a fight. and I know on this bill is a huge charge for very expensive concert tickets...she told me she was going with clients for a work event but I know this is a lie. I know she bought very good seats for her and the OM (the concert was Jay Z and Beyonce, so her seats easily could have cost $1-2K each). so seeing the bill gets me no where and just proves what I know. But she has to know that i know about the $5K and that it is inappropriate.
The trip was not punitive. I needed some time off. My wife is taking the following week off.
Does this mean W can take kids somewhere her week off and tell you that you aren't welcome?
Nettles, yes, she absolutely can do that. Right now, she invited to come and is planning to come for part of it. Her desire to be with us does seem genuine. However I struggle with boundaries. If she comes with us, is that cake eating? She gets to play the dutiful W/mom and then go to NYC for two nights (again, I know she has meetings there but that also is where her OM is).
Starsky...here is the issue, the money she spent technically is her money. our living expenses are relatively low and we make good money (but individually and collectively). we save a ton of money each year so she can argue that this money comes from there. Setting a limit to what she can spend on her own will seem somewhat arbitrary.
I need to think about this one...
25mlc, thanks for the comments. I have read most of DR but not DB. I have shared my situation with a few close friends and my waw has done the same. I have not done any campaign of exposure and I agree that it would not help anyone to do so. I have shared simply out of a need for support and a place to go instead of pursuing her.
Shodan's situation appears to have a better chance of survival than mine thankfully. So, I am hoping for the best but preparing for the worst. I have zero interest in any other women right now but it still feels good to get attention. My last remarks about younger or successful women were a cheap stab at a couple of my waw's insecurities combined with a poor attempt at humor.
25mlc
thank you for reading my thread and providing advice and input. A lot to comment on:
re: my parenting...my W and pretty much everyone I know will say that I am a great father. I have had temper issues for sure, but I have devoted the last 10 years (since my d was born) to my family. But, I have room for improvement. I spoke with my d about the incident that my MIL mentioned and she did not remember it at all.
We all have room for improvement. I assume you realize that your MIL probably did NOT make the story up? So your d either actually forgot about it (God, I hope) or she is uncomfortable discussing it with you at this time. That is a distinct possibility you can't just omit. Nor must you "do" anything more about it since you already had what sounds like a healthy discussion. I pulled her and my son aside and told them about the changes that I am making and asked for their forgiveness. They both have commented that they love the new me.
2 thoughts about this^^.
1) Way to go! My father was in some ways a great man, with tremendous strengths of character and a brilliant mind. He was also an abuser of alcohol for a chunk of my life and was abusive as hell when he drank. On his deathbed he gave me and 2 siblings (of 9) a real apology and asked us for our forgiveness.
Thanks to a lot of therapy and a great personal growth workshop I had attended a few years earlier, I had already done a lot of forgiveness work. But when I told him "You are forgiven", it was one of the holiest moments of my life. I am forever grateful for it. But sure, it would have been wonderful if he'd said it earlier.
I for one am a big believer in "better late than never".
Second thought was that there probably was more validity to your MIL's interpretation of events since your kids HAVE noticed a difference between the "old dad" and the "new dad." I mean it tends to support the notion that real work was needed there. But all the better, right?
I joke that "new" dad is cool if they do X but "old" dad probably would not have allowed it. The funny thing is that my W and I seemed to have switched roles (and personalities). She is more strict with the kids, more impatient, etc.
I think marriages and parenting evolve, and often have an "ebb & flow" kind of course.
So when one parent gets more strict/lenient, the other often compensates all in a subconscious attempt at finding "balance". I would not read a lot into this, other than a generic observation, (at this point anyhow.) re: becoming the man only a fool would leave...I know that I am showing this. Every once in a while I tell my wife that we have a great chance at a second marriage but together. I referred to myself as her second husband. She even has used this from time to time, once when we took the dog for a walk and my W brought a glass of wine with her.
She said "my first husband would never have allowed this."
Wow, that^^^ is an amazing comment for her to make. YES it's a positive!
re: the A...I don't want my W to admit to the A so I can be right. and I know it is an A. The text was VERY EXPLICIT.
I believe you (but just to ask ONE more question...you said this was a former bf from HS, correct? If so, is it possible they were referring to their old days/ways?) I only throw that out b/c I always want to find a way to give the benefit of the doubt absent "proof", but bear in mind I'm a L so for ME, "proof" has a meaning not everyone else applies to it
She has lied several times about places where she supposedly was that I have proven was not the case.
I want her to stop the A and agree to some changes so we can work on our M.
You read the DB/DR books, right? Seems she is NOT ready to do this^^ so you have to exhaust the methods/approaches in the books first, and if you have done that (and only if) then you go to the LRT.
In that case, you still don't talk or mention the OM.
Do you get that? Remember she is NOT here working on the M, you are. So you can only make so many demands...unfortunately.
Do you believe that 6 weeks of "change" is enough to convince her that you won't revert to the old ways if you two reconcile? I guess you know by my question, I think 6 weeks is not enough to undo years of behavior that contradicts it.
I read somewhere around here that it's a month of change for every year of behavior, to hope that the spouse will believe in the changes. In any event, I use the phrase "Do the math" to say
"consistent change + sufficient time = change a spouse can believe in.
Specifically, she agrees to give me the code to her phone, she changes her phone number, she either cancels her new CC or puts it under our joint names and she provides to me detailed itineraries for when she travels.
But why would she agree to that if she never had an A?
To prove she isn't NOW...? And wasn't a comment of hers (and an admission of yours ) that you are too controlling? I KNOW a lot of WAS's use that phrase to dismiss the need for transparency. But in your situation we know there was some validity to it.
Which makes your position a bit more tenuous. But think about this: if she had a short term fling or a one night stand OR an affair that is over now, and NOW (or soon) she were to be transparent, would you then demand to know the past?
I ask this for 2 reasons. First, I'm curious b/c I think it's a common occurrence we are not all prepared for and second, b/c many of our vows say "From this day forward".
(God, I think those words are freaking brilliant!) But what I mean is, at some point
You WILL have to let go of this, right? I mean if you two are to reconcile and restore your m. I guess I'm really just saying, "choose your battles wisely" and don't fall on your sword for everything.
Decide if THIS is the hill you'll live or die on. For ME, if my h were to become transparent, yes I think that would be enough for me. I would not need to agree with our history and that's actually a final comment on this issue.
My h and I do NOT review our past the same way. For a LONG time I wanted us to see things identically. But now I don't. We both put away our scorecards and we both are honest and upfront NOW.
Have been since Retrovaille. (Maybe before--- but I'm not sure and I don't care now whether it has been 6 years or 7...KWIM?)
what is ironic is one of her best friends is D because her husband cheated on her (hookers and had a mistress on the side). The friend figured it out when she went on her husband's phone and read some text messages. My W of course thought this was totally appropriate at the time but I AM the cyber stalker when I do.
I also know my W is very stubborn and will not want to admit she is wrong. She is more likely to sweep this under the rug. But without full disclosure, how can I know she has ended the A?
(Not to quibble, but didn't you fault yourself for being stubborn? Is this HER flaw or yours or both? It's important we not project our flaws onto our spouse and then in effect punish them for being like us, esp when they are not that much like us in that regard)
The other point here is you are asking how you can know IF the A is over, etc.
I'm asking you a different question.
I'm asking you how realistic it would be for your wife to want to work on things and become transparent - IF it were not over? Why would she give up NYC and want to quit her job and stay in MA more, if the A were hot & Heavy?
I know there are cake eaters but frankly, from my experience it's almost always men who want to cake eat. (Sorry guys but I have a theory!!)
I say this b/c women tend to have affairs with men whom they feel emotionally bonded with or attracted to, and or who fill some need of theirs whereas men can have affairs that are purely physical.
(I also think you once admitted you had NOT been expressive to her about how attracted you are to her or her looks, and I think she even said she felt unattractive to you. IF that is the case or was, it's darn painful and destructive for a woman).
Plus, I hear it said SO OFTEN that it might have truth in it....
many people who have had A's, (regardless of what "type" of affair it was including ones that ended fast, or lasted for years) preach "Deny, deny, deny".
They argue that this allows the LBS to maintain their dignity, while lowering the chance of them filing for divorce.
I will NOT defend this^^ belief so much as pass it on to you b/c there are SOME cheaters who do regret the affairs fairly fast, and do NOT want to deal with losing their marriages. And who do NOT repeat it.
(Like in the film "Fatal Attraction" but without the crazy murdering.)
Remember when Michael Douglas "gets it" and says "I don't want to lose my family"?? That's before Glen Close goes nuts! I got the feeling he was NOT going to cheat again -and that was BEFORE the rabbit!)
Just throwing out some thoughts b/c I have seen marriages survive affairs and I have seen some end b/c of affairs.
Here's my worst case scenario, which is what I happen to believe your wife fears most.
That is you two stay together and you stay miserable.
I think she fears that YOU will bring up the A all the time, or you will throw it in her face in every fight, you will feel "owed" the right to decide things or make the big choices b/c after all, SHE CHEATED, and you hold it over her head like the Sword of Damacles the rest of her life. AND OR you won't work on yourself and you will focus your energy on HER A and not on your own shortcomings, (which you were getting in touch with and talking a lot more about, BEFORE you learned of any A...)
I think Most LBSers go thru a period in piecing, IF we get there, in which we do feel "entitled" to get our way a lot more. That's b/c of the hurt we feel. It's not productive but it is common. Been there, done that.
I have seen this^^ more than once and it's the worst choice to make. If you cannot get past the A, you should probably do yourself (and your family) a favor and move on now. No judgement here.
But If you think you could, then you have to at least act like it.
I am NOT saying "ignore it", (though MWD does say to never mention OM and to act as if, etc and that is in her LRT, after you have exhausted the other DB approaches).
It's just that if you harp on it enough she will probably think to herself, "he'll never let go of this if I admit it. He can't let it go NOW - so how on earth will he move on and have a good marriage, if it's out there?"
And IF by chance it's already over now, I personally think it stinks that it would end the m, now, after she has already figured things out. But maybe that's just me and a few friend who have dealt with it as an issue in their m.
re: detaching and GALing...this has been the hardest. We have kids. My W travels a lot. My friends are married with kids. I cannot actually go out three nights a week unless I want to pay for babysitters and not see my kids. They already comment that my W travels a lot and is not home a lot.
Understood. I'll post separately about that but still say it helps YOU and your w's view of you and is not always as bad for the kids as you might think. Even now my kids seem to love me doing my hobbies and pursuing my passions, so I can surely imagine it more if they'd seen me being sad or hurt recently.
.re: NYC...I want to view it as you outlined it. As a positive note, perhaps where she may have ended the A or is thinking about it. But, I also wonder if this is a cake eating oppty...live in Boston, "work" on the M and go to NYC 1-2 nights per week for work and for the A.
Maybe she does not want us to move because it would end the A. It is a lot harder to have a secret A when your H is in the same city. Of course they could do secret rendezvous but it would not be as easy as they have it today.
I see your point but I don't agree. I think it's a lot harder to have an A if you have to travel for it. You for sure are limiting how far it can get however. I mean, if she won't move there, then what's the "long term A plan"?
To forever see each other 2 days a week? Gee that sounds super passionate...a woman in a long term Affair is going to feel "in love" and will want to be with her "true love/soul mate" blah blah blah.
I know this is sexist to say, (I'm female so I'm allowed!! )
but from what I've seen and experienced with friends and family, I don't really know but maybe 1 woman who had an affair, without ever intending to end their m's. As opposed to 10+ who had affairs, and then either ended the A's,
OR divorced their spouses for OM.
It's a rare woman who "plans" on having a part time affair for long.
re: my changes...i hit absolute rock bottom the night my W asked for the D. It is pretty easy to change your life when that happens. I have thanked my wife many times for what she said because I am a better man because of it.
I know that I am a great husband. I know that I am a great father.
Now "all fixed" or in the process of becoming? Not quibbling here, just saying it always scares me when someone thinks that a month of two of traumatic feelings will permanently last - without some serious support work.
Knowing what NOT to do helps us, but knowing what TO DO when we are stressed or angry or frustrated or sleep deprived or in grief, or a combination of,
we need positive role models or models of NEW behaviors--="New Tools" if you will. And that requires help, imoso where do I struggle...GALing and detaching. I took my first Brazilian Jiu JItsu class this weekend and may start that up b/c they offer morning classes. But I do miss my old dojo (similar yet different martial art) because
I have good friends there. Friends in whom I would trust my heart and soul. But the classes are at night, which interferes with family time.
If they are good friends apart from Jiu Jitsu, why not go out sometime during the weekdays or weekend days and combine their families or just hang with them, NOT leaving your kids behind so much? Just spitballing here... I am doing a ton of stuff with my kids and not just sitting around. Once per week I find myself out for a work event (previously I would have come home to be with the kids or just gone to the dojo because I was
so obsessed with practicing).
Glad that^^ has changed! Sounds much healthier. IN the past - my h has had some "hobbies" that SO occupied him, it turned the rest of us off the hobby. That includes karate and wrestling (our son did take the state championship twice, but b/c of the extreme levels of practicing my h "encouraged" in son, S quit when he turned 17. Bummer. But h can get immersed a bit too much. And he's working on it now. Like most of us and like me, he is a work in progress. I am thinking about getting some golf lessons. I may do that while I am on the cape. I have had two guitar lessons. These are all things that I enjoy but I am out meeting new people through it? Somewhat.
But there still is a void.
Void? Meaning not meeting enough new people? Yeah, and you miss your kids time too, and they miss having A parent around...I'll ponder more as I'm sure you will.My W gets back tonight from her girl's weekend. I have not texted her directly all weekend but have responded to a text or two. She asked what my S and I have been doing, for example. She probably will be back in NYC for one night this week and I know will be there for 1-2 nights the following week. she has legitimate work reasons to be there, I know that. But, she also has the OM there as well.
Should I ask her about the $5K AMEX bill? I know it will just start a fight.
If you can't discuss this without it leading to a fight, then you have your answer. Maybe however, you CAN deal with it calmly? Or productively? Have you run this by a DB coach? They are perfect for this type of situation and Not escalating things. My DB coach taught me so much and was a real Godsend. She kept me off the ledge a number of times AND was a lot gentler than I wanted to be....but she gave me marriage saving advice. and I know on this bill is a huge charge for very expensive concert tickets...she told me she was going with clients for a work event but
I know this is a lie.
Read the LRT and other parts in the book bout if/when to confront the spouse, but also TALK to your DB coach asap about it. It's eating at you and that is not a good place to be in, when you bring this up, ( IF the Coach pushes that at all - I am not sure they will. )
I know she bought very good seats for her and the OM (the concert was Jay Z and Beyonce, so her seats easily could have cost $1-2K each). so seeing the bill gets me no where and just proves what I know. But she has to know that i know about the $5K and that it is inappropriate.
Hang in there. I truly see several positives in your situation. WE cannot tell you how to fix everything or guarantee improvement, but most of us can advise you on how to make it worse.
The DB coach will have positive suggestions for you. Good luck!
25mlc
You effectively said everything my MIL said to me today. She said forget the A and focus on yourself. Focus on being a great father, person, etc. And, do not bring up the A, do not bring up the $5K CC, etc. If my W wants to talk about it, she will. But forcing the issue will show me to be controlling, which is exactly what she said was one of the main issues. and she also agreed that while I am different and believe that I am different, it takes time to change the past. My wife wants a different live than the one she has now. My changes have been seen positively, but I need to sustain them longer (this is from my MIL). In fact, your advice and her advice are so similar I wonder if you are her.
I will post more later...I am BBQing some chickens and veggies (although my S7 will NEVER at the veggies).
Thanks again for your advice and support. It means the world to me.
I am meeting with my db coach on Wednesday and my therapist on Thursday. Both seem to think that the best thing that I can do us to NOT do certain things. Don't do or say anything that will lead to a fight or argument. Don't do anything that creates a negative environment. Just have PMA, be pleasant, be a great father and continue with my consistent changes.
Don't do or say anything that will lead to a fight or argument. Don't do anything that creates a negative environment.
To this I would add
"unless it involves one of my own core boundaries." The way it's stated above always SOUNDS good, but far too often I see people here using that as justification to DO NOTHING, including protecting their own and their family's core boundaries of personal integrity, be they legal, financial, emotional or sometimes even physical.
The best advice I ever got in my sitch, I got very early on, and it said that instead of doing things from a perspective of "What will my wife think if I do thus-and-such? Will it make her angry? How will her reaction make ME feel?" and instead replace it with "In every situation, do the thing that God Himself would have you do, if he were standing right in front of you, and don't worry about your wife's reaction to it."
Put more simply, it all comes down to "Pick your battles." Yes, you blow off the small stuff, and even on the BIG stuff you remain pleasant and civil and you don't enforce boundaries from a position of simply being a dikk. But sometimes you DO need to enforce them, regardless of the anticipated blowback.
Starsky
Starsky
Thanks for your input. I clearly am conflicted here, but I believe God would say to forgive my W and be pleasant, be nice and be civil until I cannot do it anymore. If I reach that point, then I need to move on. I am not there yet. Yes, I hurt inside and yes I yearn for my family to be back together. This is her journey and I am going to let her take it. I will run along side the journey until I reach my limit.
Given she has not admitted to the A, I just need to detach and GAL. I am going to see a friend tonight and have a guitar lesson on Thursday. My wife is traveling for work on Wed, so we will only see each other tomorrow night. I also have a meeting with my DB coach on Wednesday and my therapist on Thursday morning.
My wife needs space. Her exact words to my MIL were "I want a different life than the one that I am leading." Very MLC in nature. She is struggling with being a mom, a wife, and an individual. But ironically, when she got back from her girl's weekend in Colorado, she was exhausted and basically said she had fun but it really was not what she wants to do. Drinking and partying all night, not sleeping, etc. is not what she enjoys. What does this mean for us? I have absolutely no idea. But do I think my W went a little crazy and maybe is coming back to reality a bit? Maybe. Time will tell.
Starsky
Thanks for your input. I clearly am conflicted here, but I believe God would say to forgive my W and be pleasant, be nice and be civil until I cannot do it anymore. If I reach that point, then I need to move on. I am not there yet. Yes, I hurt inside and yes I yearn for my family to be back together. This is her journey and I am going to let her take it. I will run along side the journey until I reach my limit.
Given she has not admitted to the A, I just need to detach and GAL.
Oh, don't get me wrong, Sho -- I agree with *all* of that. I just am encouraging you to have
healthy limits. Healthy for you, healthy for your kids . . . and not let "I don't want to make her mad" be your overarching driver.
Your wife actually sounds a lot like mine. Mine too had a mini-MLC, I think, in looking back on it. She had gone from living with her parents to marrying and living with me, and then we raised 4 kids together. I don't think she ever found out who (my wife's first name) is.
Starsky
I hear ya. I have told her that I don't want to live in an open marriage. She knows that. There is no need to say it again...it will just lead to more fighting but no resolution. And might it push her away...yes. Not necessarily into the arms of the OM. I actually think my wife's decision is going to be "do I want to be married at all?" But that is a lot of speculation on my part. She feels shackled by our life b/c she loves her family and her kids. She does not want to break up the M and the family, I know that. But in her mind she was SO unhappy with her life (again, not just her M, but in other ways) that she needs to escape.
So what I do continue to do...I 180 and do things that the old me never did. I do my best to not act in a controlling way. I am not showing anger. and I need to focus on having fun, which has been hard frankly. But i am coming out of my own fog little by little. I will survive this as a far better person than I began.
Lots of love for everyone
I am meeting with my db coach on Wednesday and my therapist on Thursday. Both seem to think that the best thing that I can do us to NOT do certain things. Don't do or say anything that will lead to a fight or argument. Don't do anything that creates a negative environment. Just have PMA, be pleasant, be a great father and continue with my consistent changes.
Total agreement but like I say, if & when the time comes for you to feel conflicted about the advice you get here, versus your DB Coaches, I always say go with the Coach.
We are not the experts; they are.
They are trained, we are not.
The coaches have all the same information we have, PLUS more, and they are far
less likely to let their own experiences or opinions bias their answers, whereas we can do that, usually not consciously. And you can be sure you're following the MWD advice/path.
(Of course, if you tell them something different than you tell us, that's on you).
But it sure makes it a lot easier for YOU to stay on track to know who the "Captain" is, IF there is conflict.
There were a few times my DB coach did not agree with what the posters said, (or some of my posters). At those times, I always went with my DB coaches' advice, and
I never once regretted it.
Hang in there. And btw, I'm very confident I am not your mil b/c none of my kids are married yet...
So there's that.
I hear ya. I have told her that I don't want to live in an open marriage. She knows that. There is no need to say it again...
Totally agree.
Last night I went out after work, over to a buddy's place and had two beers and talked. Came home a little after 8pm right before my S7 went to bed. My W and I talked for a bit after that, all pleasant and nice stuff. This morning we woke up and I did my normal thing of getting her a coffee and bringing it to her. She came downstairs a bit later and sat with me on the couch. We talked about my previous obsessions with my martial art (I decided to not pursue to the Brazilian JJ place that I looked at this weekend....it is a 15 min drive from home and will mean that I won't see my kids two mornings per week, which I don't want to do). She said that the issue was never that I did my martial art, but the amount of time I spent doing it and how it made me crazy and obsessed. so I may go back two nights per week to my old place. the main issue is the class is from 8-9pm so if I want to hang at home with the kids (or the W) those nights, I have to cut things short. BUt I believe I need this for my sanity and to GAL.
Shodan,
you know what makes total sense to me, as far as your wife's point of view?
All of this, (below)...
BTW, wasn't one of your w's love languages quality time? IF SO, doesn't her feeling of being neglected make sense even more to You?
She said that the issue was never that I did my martial art, but the amount of time I spent doing it and how it made me crazy and obsessed. so I may go back two nights per week to my old place. the main issue is the class is from 8-9pm so if I want to hang at home with the kids (or the W) those nights, I have to cut things short. BUt I believe I need this for my sanity and to GAL.
25mlc
Yes, I understand your point and my W's view. That is why I am confused about what to do....I want to go back two nights per week for detachment and GAL reasons. But, assuming my M works out, I probably would not continue with martial arts b/c that would be time away from my W and family. I don't want to go down that path again.
Quick update on the past two days...as I mentioned, my W and I talked (no R talk) Sunday night, Monday morning, Monday night and Tuesday morning. All good stuff. We are going away on a vacation starting this Saturday. For the first time in two months, my W wrote me an email yesterday about yoga places near the place where we are staying. She did some research and asked if I wanted to get a week pass with her at one of them. Also, she is scheduled to be in NYC today/tonight (Wed) for work. She texted me yesterday to say she is doing a day trip and taking the 9pm flight back (she has a dinner event). I told her that she did not need to and should stay over (especially since the weather is expected to be pretty nasty). She immediately texted back "No, doing 9pm."
Then when she got back from work, instead of going upstairs to change, she hung out with me while I cooked dinner, ate dinner with S7 and me (D10 was not home yet) and talked about our family, how great things are, etc. She even said "i cannot believe that school starts for the kids in two weeks, where did the summer go" Of course, I was thinking (sarcastically) "we had no summer b/c your dad dies, my mom had a stroke and you asked me for a D in early June. For me, the summer has completely s***ed."
Finally, last night, she laid on me in bed.
Not sure what any of this means. I will continue to be who I am and see where this go. Speaking with my DB coach today.
Lots of love for everyone
Nope, no ML.
But we went to yoga together this morning, referred to me as her husband to people and made some comment to me about having to deal with her for the next forty years. I am just going to play cool and not say anything. It clearly is her move to say something to me. Either way, I am not going to push for her to admit to the A. If we do talk, I want to discuss what we do from here forward.
and, her cell phone is not glued to her anymore. She leaves it behind and in places where I could break in if I wanted (if I knew the code).
Gotcha -- thanks for clarifying!
I met with my DB coach today. Her advice:
- keep doing what is working and don't do things that are not working
- She does not believe that my W is "faking" these changes on her end. there are too many drastic changes from things that she has said and done before
- She said to be patient however, and not expect too much. Just be a great friend for now, be a great parent and be consistent with my changes and 180s
- expect that my W will on a roller coaster for a bit of time....she may be cold/standoffish after being warm and friendly. She is still struggling through her journey. Do let this discourage me
- do not bring up the A, the $5K charge on the credit card, the lies, the deceit. She will tell me about them in time
Update on today...my wife and I have a funny back and forth on text today. She flew to NYC today but is committed to being on the 9pm flight home. She even said "for my next job - no travel."
Does this mean I fully trust my wife again? No. Does this mean we are back together? Clearly not. But, I have seen a slew of positive signs to give me the belief that I need to continue what I am doing, which is being slightly detached but still being fun, warm and doing nice things for her (e.g., I bought her two of her favorite magazines yesterday...she thanked me later when she came home).
Thanks for the update, Sho.
Let me ask you a question: on a scale from 1 to 10, with "10" being the most stubborn, how stubborn would you say your wife is?
She might just be giving you what you've asked for in the way of no-contact and transparency, without giving you the satisfaction of admitting to you that she's doing it? I'm leaning in that direction, but I'm still personally only leaning about 60/40 to the "sincere" side. Time and consistency will tell, plus any good intel you have to verify. Certainly all positive signs so far though.
The challenge in these things is that "genuine changes" look so much like the "St. Mrs.Sho" stuff a wayward can do while temporarily driving their affair underground, often at the advice of their attorney to "do X, Y and Z." Time will always tell though, and there's no reason not to enjoy the lessened tension and good times so long as you're careful. God knows you deserve some of them!
Starsky
Starsky, good questions....on a scale of 1-10, she is close to an 8, maybe higher. She hates being told what to do. if she is refusing to admit to the A, I am not sure if it is because she does not want to give me the satisfaction of being "right" or more that she is just not ready to say anything. If the A were going underground, I would think she would have only done a few of these things, but not all of them. Also, MA is a no fault state, so whether she has an A or not does not matter in a D.
Here are the list of "positive changes"
- said she does not want to move to NYC...said "NYC would be great for us but not sure about it for kids"
- commented "who is the idiot who takes a job on a whim"
- doing a day trip today when she easily could stay over
- has invited me to go with her to yoga a few times this past week
- has been proactively texting and emailing me the past few days
- is talking about the future as a couple and as a family
- has been more "affectionate", touching my arm, etc. No kissing or anything yet
- looked into yoga classes for us to go to together when we are on vacation
You might want to start thinking now, ahead of time, what your feeling (and stance) is going to be if you never DO get even an ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of anything, much less any stated REMORSE about it. But if everything else just resumes a positive trajectory. Are you going to be okay with that?
Personally, I never needed an "I'm sorry" (many BSs don't get one), but I DID need to see some sort of INTROSPECTION -- some indication that my wife UNDERSTOOD the deep pain her destructive choice had caused the family, of why she might have done it, and what she/we might be able to do going forward to ensure that it never, ever happened again.
If you just get a big "Look, let's not go there," but otherwise things all resume positively . . . how will that do for you?
Just something to ponder.
Starsky
---She hates being told what to do. if she is refusing to admit to the A, I am not sure if it is because she does not want to give me the satisfaction of being "right"
would it give you that "satisfaction"? I mean, really?
or more that she is just not ready to say anything.
this^^ is at least one of the reasons, but I'd bet there are several.
If the A were going underground, I would think she would have only done a few of these things, but not all of them. Also, MA is a no fault state, so whether she has an A or not does not matter in a D.
So Legally, there is no reason for her to lie about it. But I bet she does not think the "road home" would be smoother or paved, at all, were she to admit it.
Please see her POV on this b/c she likely fears this ^^^ big time, the whole "throw it in my face if I ever tell him", etc.
At times like this, it's easy to forget that this is a traumatic thing for all, I'm sure.
Ponder how much harder it would be ((( OR seem to be to her))) to come back after admitting an A?
Here are the list of "positive changes"
- said she does not want to move to NYC...said "NYC would be great for us but not sure about it for kids"
^^^ Huge insight, CHANGE, and placement of kids over HER career/personal wishes of recent times...
- commented "who is the idiot who takes a job on a whim"
- doing a day trip today when she easily could stay over
=Choosing YOU/Family, NOT OM...
- has invited me to go with her to yoga a few times this past week
- has been proactively texting and emailing me the past few days
Reaching out. Initiating.
- is talking about the future as a couple and as a family
DING DING DING!!!!! Uh, YES that is what we call a POSITIVE. Yikes...want it written in letters in the sky? Sure sure, I know you're not out of the woods by a long shot.
But YES these are positives. No question.
- has been more "affectionate", touching my arm, etc. No kissing or anything yet
- looked into yoga classes for us to go to together when we are on vacation
Impressed...
As I said before, this^^ is a list of a lot of positives. This is getting very hopeful.
Good GOOD job...
Starksy..great question to which I don't have an answer. Let's say that the M got to the point of being "perfect", or at least "amazing". Big if. Do i need an apology or just knowing that my M is back is enough? not sure right now. Need to digest that.
25MLC...i am trying to create a safe environment for her and am not going to mention the A. I don't need to be right, trust me. and perhaps she wants to take this to her grave so to speak. She knows I know so does admitting to it change anything if we get our M back on track. Again, I have no idea.
Another positive change from today...my W was not going to be able to make the whole trip, had to be in NYC M-W for work. She emailed me earlier to say that she is trying to move her meetings so she can stay the entire time. Again, another positive sign.
Starksy..great question to which I don't have an answer. Let's say that the M got to the point of being "perfect", or at least "amazing". Big if. Do i need an apology or just knowing that my M is back is enough? not sure right now. Need to digest that.
And again, please don't misunderstand -- I'm not saying you should or you shouldn't, and many never do get any sort of stated remorse. From my experience and observation, I also don't think it's even necessary for a successful reconciliation.
I do, however, think it's necessary that BOTH spouses "get" what it was that got them to the abyss, go through the requisite introspection and self-improvement, and demonstrate to one another some sort of "Hey, I hear you and I get it" type of thing that shows that they really DO "get it."
I'm really just trying to get you to start thinking about this ahead of time. Because -- like affairs themselves being "dealbreakers" or not -- if stated remorse is NOT something you need to heal, you shouldn't push for it as it'll only unnecessarily make you look needy and/or "lording it over" her.
Does that make sense? I'm kinda rambling here.
Starsky
no, i get it. My initial instinct is I want my M back and I know pushing for certain things could hinder our progress. But perhaps a year from now I want to talk with her about her phone, for example, and how it is odd that she keeps the code from me? Or that she has this separate credit card that goes to her work address (I assume this is the case since the statement does not come home). But our switch is way to raw to mention this now.
As I mentioned earlier, my W did a day trip to NYC yesterday vs. staying over. The weather was horrible, so instead of leaving NYC at 8pm, she did not leave until 10pm. She got home a little after 1130pm. While she was waiting at the airport, we texted back and forth a few times, with her commenting that travel s**ks a few times.
This is showing me she is working to be more committed to our family. Does this mean we will get back together...who knows? I need to remind myself to continue what I am doing but not pursue her. I know I will have the tendency to do that, which could push her away.
Any advice out there from anyone, assuming we are "moving" toward repairing our R? Do I play the same game, GAL, etc? Do I pursue more?
Lots of love for everyone
Update on things....last night I had a guitar lesson (I am still bad) and then went out with a friend for dinner. I came back and talked with my W for a while. About life, about what my therapist and I discussed today, etc. Again, lots of good connecting. I even joked about how my therapist told me that talking and listening is good, but don't be a typical guy and try to fix whatever your W mentions. I told my W this and that no guy knows this. We think by listening and then offering up solutions, we are being extra awesome...I am listening AND providing help. My W agreed that women just want someone to listen to their problems. I told her that all women need to tell men this...they don't know it.
But, my W is still standoffish and not being physical of any sort. I have been somewhat flirty with her but in an "as if" way, telling her she looks great in a dress or that I like certain underwear that she is wearing. She will say either "thank you" or "i have had this dress for two years, you never commented before." But, she is not responsive to me. Clearly, she is not ready to "work" on our M and R. She said that it is hard to just turn on her feelings.
My guess is the advice will to back off and be patient. We are 2.5 months removed from her BD and she still may be in an A or perhaps recently ended it. Should I continue to treat her as a WAW even though she is somewhat more committed to the family and us?
I went through a similar phase with my W when I moved back home. We ML a few times then all of a sudden she was not in the mood and blamed it on depression. I made the mistake of getting angry/upset with her and this did nothing to help. So I did some research on the matter and completely backed off on anything to do with physical contact. I still acted lovingly and positive the way I had been and put no pressure on my W. After about 2-3 weeks one night she basically jumped all over me haha. Things have been great from that point on.
Looking back, this had nothing to do with depression I guess you could say. I realize that my W was most likely going through WD from completely cutting off contact with OM. My W even told me that she never thought she could fall in love with me again. It was very clear to me when she did. At this time she became very remorseful of everything that happened OM wise. Talked about how stupid she was, how sorry she is and so on. That she is more in love with me than ever before and hates what she did to me during the separation.
This stuff just takes time. It seems like things are progressing in a positive way for you right now. Keep up the good work and let things just happen.
Thanks Indigo. So are "flirty" texts too much?
I think you're moving way too fast, Sho. You can ask the women here, but asking/commenting about her underwear is far more than "light and flirty" -- it's PURSUING.
Slowwww and eaaasssy. You still don't even know if she has ended things with OM.
Starsky
Starsky
I know you are right, i know i need to slow down. But it has been hard to do that.
I just need to back off a bit.
Thanks.
Quick update...Friday night started our vacation, we went to dinner with the kids and had a great time. The kids ran around outside the restaurant after dinner giving my W and me time to chat. She asked about the changes she had seen in me and wondered why it took get asking for a D to cause this to happen. I owned that answer. She then said again that she is trying to change get feelings towards me and that if she could, she would. We ended the night watching tv with tyre kids and my W laying on me (on a pillow) on the couch. She commented that we have not done "this" in a while.
We went to yoga together the next day and then took separate cars to the cape. Try as she might my W was not able to move her meetings in NYC so she had to be there Monday-Wednesday of this week. My W beat me to the Cape (I had my D10 in my car and we stopped at IHOP for lunch, I never do this, I always am the one who would race to where we are going and would never stop to do anything. My W got to the resort, checked us in and sent me a text that "she and S7 were at the pool and she had a IPA (beer) waiting for me. When I got there she said that this place felt like a vacation and that we should stay longer so I called the front desk and extended our time by three more nights. We had fun as a family all day and had a great dinner.
However my W left last night (Saturday) to drive back to our house because she needs to be in NYC Sunday night...her first meeting is 8am in NYC with the CEO of her company, while I don't love that before the A I would not have thought anything of this. So is she still having the A? No idea, I cannot focus on that I do know that she wanted to stay with us on the cape and said that she wished that I had not sprung the vacation on her. She just could not change her work schedule.
I know she resents me a bit for this which was not my goal. But I needed the vacation and needed to move forward. So the next few days it will be the kids and me, will focus on them and being a great father.
Some more journaling...my wife commented that I have not looked at her the way that I am since before the kids were born. Two months ago she said "when u look at me I know u don't find me attractive" so her new comments are a slight improvement. I also have been rubbing her feet from time to time, which she says hat she likes. But she also said that I have not done that in years.
In the end I am listening to her and really getting a sense for what was missing...we needed more quality time together, I needed to listen better, I needed to show my affection for her. She also told me of her low point when she was late picking up D10 from soccer practice and she told D10 not to tell me because she knew I would be mad. Clearly I have created some extreme control and anxiety issues with her that will take time for her to get over if ever.
I have been on vaca with only the kids for a few days now. My W is joining us tomorrow (she has been working in NYC). The vaca has had its ups and downs...loving being with my kids but I also see a lot of happy families around me, which is tough.
I read the 5 LL and took the LL test. Turns out that my #1 LL is Quality Time. This explains some of my controlling behavior. As I think about it, I love spending time with my W, no matter what it is. My W loves quality time as well but also loves her independence. So when my W does not want to be with me, it really hurts my feelings. I think this hurt leads to anger, which causes me to want to control where she is and what she is doing. I know that I need to let it go, but because this is my #1 LL, letting go is very hard.
Re: detaching...I have done an ok job of it this week. I texted only in reply to her but did send her a few pics of the kids (on a text group with my MIL). But my W did text me to ask if I wanted her to pick up a new work bag for me while she is in NYC (I mentioned to her that I needed a new bag for work). But this also could just be her being nice to me.
Either way, I am having PMA and being the best dad that I can be. We have played a lot on the beach together, played a lot of whiffle ball and have eaten a ton of ice cream. Tomorrow night my W gets here.
Lots of love to everyone
So I could use some advice...my w gets here on vaca later today, we will be together until Tuesday. I know my W had an A but she has not admitted to it. Also i am not sure whether it has ended or not. She has warmed up to me in the last two weeks, emailing and texting me rather than the opposite. I want to continue to show her a safe environment to which she can return. I also want to be fun and act "as if" but I still want to keep some space and not pursue her.
Therefore how do I act when we are on vacation for one week together? Like friends, be friendly? Do I "ignore" her and just focus on the kids? If I go to the bar for a drink do I ask her if she wants one or is that pursuing? If she wants to talk about stuff (not the R) do I engage or should I be more curt to shoe her that she could be losing me?
Train I sense that you had a similar issue with your H except he had admitted to the A and was talking about ending it when you were on vacation. What was your approach? Friendly? Kid focused? Curt?
Lots of love for everyone
I know my W had an A but she has not admitted to it. Also i am not sure whether it has ended or not.
And this ^^^ makes it impossible for me to give you on-target advice. The tactics that I would advise -- not to mention your overall strategy -- would be almost entirely different if she were still in contact with her affair partner.
I know that's not much help to you, Sho.
Starsky
I would CERTAINLY ix-nay the foot-rubbing tho!!!
I hear you. That is why I am confused. A lot of what she does makes me believe that it has ended but I really do not know. What if the sitch is that she is still in contact with the OM but not admitting to it still. What would you advise for my actions and behavior during the vacation?
There are still some "greatest common denominator" -type stuff you can do though.
Stay positive and upbeat, without being annoyingly so.
Focus on being a great dad in front of her (I know you do this anyway, even when she's not around).
Be cordial, polite.
Be a great conversationalist (especially letting her observe you being that with someone else, say someone you meet on the vacation). Don't PURSUE conversations with your wife (and certainly no R talks!!), but when SHE initiates them, be a great listener. Validate, even if you don't agree.
NO FOOT RUBS!!
It's just hard to get more specific than that, because you're either being played or she's genuinely ended things and made a move back to the marriage. And "x 10" all of that ^^^ when you have the "she knows that you know" (even if she denies it) dynamic going on, because then you've got her thinking "Wow, Sho believes ________, but yet he's still doing ________ for me. That's pretty weak."
This is why I believe in good intel so much, and get in trouble with the whole "no snooping!" thing. What do airline pilots do when they're in the midst of the fog? THEY USE THEIR INSTRUMENTS!!!
Starsky
Yeah, Starsky I know what you mean about the no snooping issue. I expressed to my W that I had info about an A but didn't reveal my sources this was the day she served me the complaint.
It was only after my L advised me to find out as much as I could about jobs and income, pertaining to my W, before the support hearing that she knew I snooped a full two months after the first A talk. I did it because I was advised to so I could protect myself financially.
W went off the deep end of course put a lock on the bedroom door and claimed that I remove receipts(evidence) from the bedroom and wanted them returned. I didn't but it was her way of saying she knew that I knew and was mad because she got caught.
Sorry for jumping in Sho. I Pray you aren't being played and your W has ended things with OM.
I prayed that I am not being played as well. I guess all I can do is be patient and hope she tells me the truth. She really is someone who would sweep this under the rug. In fact that is one of the issues with our communication...we don't fight ever.
If she never tells me the truth I guess I will know she ended it when she says "I want to work on our marriage." All she has ever said is "I don't want this, you are my H and the father of children" and that she "is trying to change her feelings and she would if she could." But that is not someone committed to our M.
All she has ever said is "I don't want this, you are my H and the father of children" and that she "is trying to change her feelings and she would if she could." But that is not someone committed to our M.
The problem with all of that is, there's a physiological component to this that is very real, Sho. If she's still in contact with OM (even if it's some sort of "let's step back and cool things off, I need to try to work on my marriage as I have too much invested here" period), her brain is going to be awash in endorphines (PEAs) that will actually chemically BLOCK her from changing her feelings towards you!
Chemically, you won't stand a chance.
THAT is why I'm such a nazi about no-contact and transparency. Affairs are HIGHLY addictive; it's what made an otherwise sane, intelligent adult female NASA astronaut drive across country
wearing an adult diaper, so she wouldn't have to stop and take bathroom breaks, as she drove to Florida to avenge her man and confront the other woman!
It's what makes highly successful men and women throw their careers -- and even their families -- away, when it otherwise makes NO sense whatsoever.
It's what causes previously responsible spouses to drain family savings accounts, and run up tens of thousands of credit card debt on their affairs.
It's REAL.
The no-contact, and the DECISION to work on the marriage with you is SO she can open herself up to her feelings for you to return. ANY continued contact with OM -- even NEGATIVE contact, if you can imagine -- sets her withdrawal "clock" back to 0:00:00.
Do some basic research by Google'ing "PEA love lust brain addiction" and learn more about this. The pull is INTENSE.
Starsky
Change these terms and you'll get the why in drop kicking the OM to the curb:
The OM/OW have a name that is heroin or meth.
People in affairs are looking to get their next "fix." Their heroin of choice is OM/OW. When my late father was in one of his affairs, he left me behind one Thanksgiving just to spend his precious time with his OW. Stupid man!
Same thing.
So you were right, I am being played. After a great day with my W during which we had a ton of fun, I discovered that she is still in contact with him. I looked over to her while she was texting and saw his initials again. We had gone to a bonfire on the beach with my kids when I saw this. I looked at her and said that I needed to go. She asked why and became very concerned, I pulled her aside and said that I thought that she had ended things in NYC but clearly I was being played. I told her that I accidentally saw her texts. She said "oh SG, that is nothing, it actually is a funny text about him having a bachelor night with some playboys magazines."
I asked her if she wanted to work on our M. She said yes. I then said that I have some boundaries that we needed to discuss later, which we did when the kids went to bed. I told her that in order to work on our M, she needed to end all contact with the OM, needed to delete his #, change phone numbers and write him an email that said never to contact you ever again.
I said that these are my boundaries and that she does not need to follow them. She is a big girl who can make her own decisions. She laughed and said that there was nothing between them and reiterated that I was controlling and a lunatic. She then said "do you want to control everyone with whom I text?" She also reiterated her point that I did not cry when she asked for a divorce, which showed her that I did not care. She also genuinely seemed to want to work on our M but was scared that my changes would not last and that my controlling with whom she texts is exactly the behavior that is driving her away.
She said that she would go NC with the OM in theory because there is nothing between them but in reality she does not want me to control her and with whom she texts.
I reiterated my point that I am committed to our M and our family but that I will not live in an open marriage. I ended the convo by telling her that we both have a lot to think about.
Do I think she wants to work on our M? Yes
Do I think she is keeping both of us around to see how it all works out? Yes
Do I trust her? NO
What s@cks is that she discussed the future with me this past week, she asked about using our money to buy her mom a condo, she discussed future family vacations and whether we should see my parents at thanksgiving, etc.
And now we r on vacation together until Tuesday...
I'm so sorry, Sho. I know you wanted this to be real. What do you want to do?
Starsky
I have no idea anymore. I want my M back.
I just need to detach and move forward
Do I think she wants to work on our M? Yes
Do I think she is keeping both of us around to see how it all works out? Yes
Well of course she is. Why wouldn't she? She has an OM who meets God-only-knows-what needs of hers, and a faithful husband who rubs her feet, takes her on nice vacations, leaves her romantic little notes and is the world's best listener and an awesome dad, and this keeps her family intact.
I'm not trying to be glib, Sho -- I know you're hurting today. And you don't have to decide ANYTHING today, btw. But this is the problem with extending the "Plan A" phase past when you know about an affair, and they KNOW that you know.
It only leads to cake-eating and limbo.You need to remove yourself as Option B. It's "A" or "C", but not "B".
Starsky
she asked about using our money to buy her mom a condo...
This ^^^ is probably why they agreed to "cool it" for awhile, sadly.
Sho,
I know it [censored] to be played. Starsky is absolutely right, here. I can attest to this, having been there. The limbo can go on forever.
You have to remove the plan B option. That means both you and your W have to face some realities. Prepare for either outcome.
Good luck.
So what is my next move? File for D?
Sho, you might benefit by visiting my thread. Our situations seem to be similar in that my W was claiming OM was just a friend and I had no clue as to their true relationship other than knowing they were still in contact. I decided that I was no longer willing to remain in an open marriage and stated my boundary to W.
Do not file for D unless you are absolutely sure that's what you want. Once you 'threaten' it, you look like a fool if you take it back. Trust me- I did that several times before this past week, when I finally felt like I was 'there' and ready to follow through on it. Even then, I issued one last offer to W- work with me and give up all OM contact or we will begin D discussion and we will no longer be friends.
So what is my next move? File for D?
No one can answer that but yourself, Sho'. Your "I will not remain in a marriage where my wife is still in contact with her current OR former affair partner," --you either meant that, or you didn't. That's either really a core boundary of personal integrity for you, or it's not.
Assuming it IS, then all you can do is let your wife know that you meant what you said, and that "you both have decisions to make." (you handled the whole convo very well, btw -- good job)
In my own case, it took filing for divorce for my wife to understand I was serious, but that's NOT why I did it (nor why ANYONE should). I did it because I really MEANT that part about "I will not live in an open marriage," and my wife -- for two months -- continued in an unrepentant physical affair even after her husband and her adult family members all knew about it.
We can debate strategies and tactics all day, Sho (and as you probably know, I've been pretty clear that I wasn't on board with the whole "let's continue the Plan A thing and show her how wonderful I am" thing.) But we're beyond that now. You've stated your boundary, she's lied to you and then told you to your face that she has no intention of respecting it.
The ball's in your court, but the game is far from over. I do think she loves you, and you have a long and strong shared family history together -- including the past 8 weeks or so of REALLY showing her the best Shodan. You've got to hold on to the hope that she will see that, even as you begin to leave her behind.
Starsky
I hear you. I know if she ended this A we could work on our M. We really have had a lot of fun together, which I know is confusing her. She even said last night "today was fun but what does this mean for tomorrow and the future?" I said "I know that we will have ups and downs, good days and bad days, and then more good than bad. But we cannot even go that direction as long as you have any contact with the OM."
I need to take this one day at a time. Just back off, be pleasant and treat her like a neighbor.