http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2471264#Post2471264It looks like my first thread is locked (not sure what that means) so I am starting a new one. Focusing right now on my kids and decided to get back into martial arts if I can find morning classes. I want to be the best dad, friend, son and H possible (although I need my W to end her A before we can discuss being a better H). We have not spoken in a few days, so it will be interesting when she returns on Saturday. The more I think about, the more I realize that she is in a daze/fog and is making very bad decisions due to this A. But, only she can realize that. No one else can tell her.
Hey, sho.
I didn't get around to posting re: the "exposure" question at the end of your last thread.
I am in Starsky's camp on that one. Granted, I had already exposed the A by the time I came back here to the boards. I told my family (including our children - even S8 because he was on his dad's phone and read some disgusting texts), H's family and OW's place of employment (because she was on-duty when she gave her phone number to my H). And then I exposed the A to OW's H once it was clear the two were still sneaking around after they said they'd end the A.
I don't regret it.
I don't like shaming ANYBODY and ESPECIALLY the man I love. I take no joy in that at all. And I can take my lumps all day long. But I will never lie down and say that I deserved to be cheated on. No way, no how. And call it ego if ya want, but I was not going to let my H run around and trash ME by saying I was a POS wife, without gently telling people the REAL reason we were separated.
I also exposed because I think it shortens the duration of the A; a huge part of the allure is that it's shrouded in exciting secrecy. The fantasy can exist as long as it's secret. Exposure rains on the parade. It also makes "real-world problems" come along, which make them realize their affair-partner maybe isn't so perfect after all. They get to start seeing that person for who they really are.
I didn't shout my H's affair from the rooftops by any means. I wasn't PROUD my H was having an A. I was, actually, ashamed and humiliated. I also made sure to tell anyone I told that I took responsibility for my part of the breakdown of our M, and I was open about my "contributions." I also told them I would be willing to work on my M as soon as the A ended.
I'm not suggesting it works for everybody. But it worked for me.
My H is home, and our relationship is growing stronger each day. We're hitting bumps along the way, but none of those have been attributed to the fact that others know of the A.
Be careful WHO you tell - and, outside of family, I wouldn't say anything unless prompted or asked. And maybe this is a moot point now, but I did want to share my experiences, especially since Starsky - who makes THREE smart cookies - mentioned them in your last thread.
Hope you're well. You sound like you're in a good place, considering the circumstances.
"25,
With all due respect, did you even READ his initial post? It's ALL ABOUT the positive changes he made. Meanwhile, his wife PLAYED HIM.
There was nothing "lucky" about a strong hybrid approach of positive self-improvement mixed with strong boundaries and self-protection. It's worked for PLENTY of people around here, including some current sitches (like Train's, just off the top of my head).
The OM may not be the CAUSE, but he is most certainly the most immediate OBSTACLE.
Starsky"
I understand why you did what you did.
Do you understand why MWD and Div Busting advises AGAINST it? And do you see that confronting your SPOUSE about an affair is a lot different than involving 3rd parties?
I strongly oppose exposing to 3rd parties. Almsot 100% of the time I oppose it b/c I think it's almost 100% of the time that it comes from a place of wounded pride/ego and a desire to punish,
and not a place of love or self respect, (though that is what we tell ourselves.)
IN fact, We justify a lot of "teaching them a lesson/showing them the consequences" of their choices and we rationalize it quite well.
But per my DB coach, "it's NOT OUR JOB to teach our spouses a lesson or show them consequences of their actions.
LIFE does that for them."
Besides, it's too tempting to use those rationalizations to vindictively seek revenge, all under the guise of being "noble & Honest"....
I could see if there were legal ramifications, then and only then would I tell the necessary parties. But telling an 8 y/o? Sorry but that sickens me but hey, he's your son, not mine.
So, How'd it work out for you?
The times I have seen it, it backfires. Here's one TRUE example of how that works.
My HS class has a fb page which makes reunions a lot easier to plan.
A LBW posted on our class page not to "let OW steal your h like she stole mine last year".
Both OW and H were classmates. Other people in our class messaged me to delete Ow's post (b/c I administer the class page)
and they ALL said things along the lines of how "inappropriate" and 'weird" and "angry/bitter" the wife sounded.
Right or wrong, not one person expressed sympathy for the wife OR anger at the h or OW. Not one.
Have you read why Div Busting goes against this?
Are you really familiar with her reasons?
My main point here isn't just how bad it makes the wronged spouse look to the general public, but I think that can matter.
I think it's a bad idea b/c it does NOT help the situation at all.
The truth would have been revealed in time anyhow, and if it were simply a fling, now telling others just cements it into something more, so it's going to be stronger not weaker. It often pushes the spouse into the arms of OP MORE, not less.
The more people who know, the harder it is to come back from.
Is the goal to keep the road home, paved and smooth (per my DB coach) or to punish them?
I'm NOT saying they don't have to earn our trust back, but I am saying that shaming them is no way to get them home.
The momentary pleasure you might feel will pale, over time, when the world/your kids see you as the messenger of evil news, and possibly the cause of it ("See? She's such a bitter woman of course I had an affair!"---and yes I have seen that said and believed, too often to count).
Your kids are not blind or stupid. Why be the bearer of news that ruins the hero they have in their dad? B/C you don't want him to be admired by them? That hurts THEM as much or more than it hurts him...and
it greatly lessens the chance he'll come home; it does NOT increase it.
Shaming them fails.
If it worked, MWD would advise in favor of it.
Starsky says it worked for him (& I believe him) but there are 2 things you must remember:
1) he also worked on himself, big time, AND his wife had seen that and
2) he's not typical.
I think there will be a time that you regret it and even if there isn't, there will be a time that you see the pain inflicted on your kids and you'll know it could have been less if you'd handled it all differently.
No, I am not defending your h and if he lied about you to justify his A, then I would have warned him to stop doing that or you'd be forced to defend yourself.
But the way you are making it sound IS as if you did derive pleasure from it.
I could be wrong of course, and I'm Sorry, but that's how it reads to me.
Train, thanks for the feedback and input. I would say that I am in an OK place, trying to be a PapaBear for my family. What really stinks is I miss being together as a family. Since early May, things have not been right. I suspect that my W started this A before May. We have not been doing too much together but when we do, before I knew about the A, it has been pretty great. But now that I know about the A, I cannot get that feeling back until she ends it and we work on our M. I know I need to take the hard line, I know that I need to be tough. I know I need to GAL but I felt like I had it all before this happened. A great family, great wife, great job, etc. I know we did not spend enough together as H and W, but I figured that was the growing pains of M and having two kids, 10 and 7. I honestly never knew how unhappy my W and that it would/could end our M. So part of me wants to show her just how great things can be/are, but it is hard to do that when I know about the A and she is not being truthful. I want to send her a pictures of the kids doing fun things with me (I did this before I knew about the A) and text her on Saturday to say "meet us out at X place" and order a bottle of wine for us. But I know I cannot do that.
So what motivates me is that I know my kids love our family. Living in separate homes and not having a Mom and Dad at dinner together is not a family. I love our family. So I need to be strong.
Thank you to everyone for their continued encouragement and advice.
Drew
I don't know who you are quoting.
I give Starsky a lot of credit for work HE has done. I still believe his approach is unique but he'll admit it's not DBing's teachings he's following too much.
This post did not reveal work the poster had done and I've only read some of the thread but what I read in that post was sufficient for me to address. That is all I addressed.
Besides, I am a proponent of DB works, not another approach.
What approach are you citing? IF it's not DB, then admit that and say so. It's not "wrong" per se but its not DB.
I have not seen a lot of success with exposing to 3rd parties which I'm honest about. (I am not referring to confronting a spouse, but to third parties).
25,
If your long post was addressed to me instead of sho, we can pick back up on my experiences over in my thread, "Train, roll on." That's if you're truly interested instead of just trying to bait.
I don't post a lot there because my M is in piecing now. Because of that, however, I'll continue to share my experiences - and what worked for me - with people on these boards. Are you even familiar with my sitch, 25? I don't recall you ever responding to any of my thread posts.
I respect you and your wisdom and experiences. But I think your tact is quite lacking.
sho,
And what you said up there about the A changing things? Yeah. It does.
I think you've got it right.
Per usual train, thank you for your input. I am going to focus on creating a great environment at home for my kids and do 180s without being totally "friendly" to my wife. I need to be an awesome papabear and save my family.
Once she ends this A, we can go back to repairing our R.
Yes, sho.
I think SO many of us are blind-sided when As happen. Looking back, we can see that things maybe weren't as great - or steady-going - as we thought. Good ol' hindsight, eh?
I think that's why some people say that after an A is over, it can actually be one of the best things to happen to a M. Or, at least it can make a M a lot stronger. These "scares" cause us to wake up every day, deliberately trying to meet our spouses' needs in a way we didn't before. At the same time, they cause us to dig deep to remember the people we really are ... who are the people our spouses fell in love with.
Who was THAT sho? I could be wrong, but judging even from your very first posts, I expect he was strong and confident.
Sounds, too, like you're a romantic. And W got to see that in you even recently. Good!
Those "old-flame As," from what I've read, die hard. So brace yourself for that, of course.
But you just be the man your family needs, always keeping the family's best interests at heart. You have a great head start.
Have you read "His Needs, Her Needs"? It was recommended to me here at the beginning of my sitch and really helped me a lot.
Starsky says it worked for him (& I believe him) but there are 2 things you must remember:
1) he also worked on himself, big time, AND his wife had seen that and
2) he's not typical.
Starsky can speak for himself.
I have THOUSANDS of posts from my own sitch, which I link here from time to time and also provide any time anyone asks for them. I have ALWAYS advocated doing BOTH the "strong stand" thing AND the "clean up your own side of the street" thing, and my posting history and philosophy is extremely consistent in that regard. I have a limited amount of time during a very busy life to still post here, and I do so by trying to provide whatever voice I think might be missing from someone's thread, and also what I think fits their particular situation.
Since Sho's very first post (and many subsequent ones) talked at great length about all of his own positive changes and things he'd been doing to "clean up his side of the street," and since the affair discovery was recent and since HE HIMSELF said it has caused him to change HIS goals, and HIS boundaries, that's what I have focused on.
Secondly, the "unique" thing just makes me laugh 25, it really does. Because however you feel about exposure (and reasonable people can and do disagree on it), it's HARDLY some sort of crazy "outlier" in the infidelity research and counseling field. I'd say that most (certainly at least half) of the leading people in the field (Harley, Spring, McGraw, Tupy, others) advocate it, and it's not an exaggeration to say that literally THOUSANDS (probably tens of thousands?) of marriages have been saved by programs that include exposure.
I don't advocate it here out of respect for MWD, with whom I respectfully disagree, but it's her site and I am here (as we all are) as her guest. When asked, I give an honest answer of what worked for me, and will continue to do so, but I usually include a "this is not DB teaching" just to be clear, as you know.
But to make my successfully reconciled marriage some sort of "lucky" outlier is just laughable, and -- frankly -- insulting. I could name a dozen more more folks just from this forum alone who have advocated it and used it successfully.
I honestly don't know why you have such a touchy spot on the whole "shaming" thing (and absolutely NOTHING in Sho's posts thus far presented any sort of attitude that even smacked one iota of vindictiveness or anything of the sort???), but it's obviously setting you off.
That's your issue, not mine.
And with that, I'll stop hijacking Sho's thread. I'll post a link to my sitch again, Sho, and you can ask me anything you want there or here, as it's your thread.
Peace,
Starsky
Once she ends this A, we can go back to repairing our R.
Physiologically, she's going to be emotionally blocked off to you anyway as long as she is in contact with OM. (Google "PEAs endorphines brain love lust" and read some of what it returns).
It's also best for your self-esteem and self-protection.
It's ALSO best for your wife to see that there are boundaries her husband believes in, that -- if crossed -- are dealbreakers for him. There is a COMFORT in that, and my wife told me after we reconciled that she respected my tough stance and how I fought for our marriage and our family. She said it was "comforting" (altho she was P*SSED at the time) to know that I had values and things that were non-negotiable, and that I was willing to fight for them.
Starsky
(And just FWIW, sho, I took the soft/be-the-cheating-spouse's-BFF stance the FIRST time my H cheated, in 2005. Clearly, it didn't work. Obviously, I'm only a few months into THIS round of piecing. But my H has told me that my "confidence" is what drew him back home this time. He's even told me that the strong stance I took irritated the snot outta him at the time but that he actually respects me more for fighting for him and our family. Just remember to do what works for you and your family.)
Dang, Starsky. Cross-posted on the very same "result." ^^^
Nifty, eh?
Lucky? I think Starsky has some of the best advice out there. Why? Because it works. Sho, do not be the doormat. If you want to take the "be the better man" approach, make sure you are doing it for YOU!
I wanted to go back to this, from your other thread, Sho because it brings up something I wanted to note (and no, it's not the nice things that Shocked said about me, lol).
I think WHICHEVER tack you take, you have to check your motives. Frankly, I've seen far less people who came across as being vindictive or in any way desiring of "shaming" their wayward spouse than I have of people who say they're taking the more passive, "standing" approach out of some sort of pious, unconditional love when in reality their threads just OOZE fear, co-dependence and did I say fear?
We ALWAYS need to check our motives, because the truth is that us flawed humans will rarely seek the tougher road, and we'll often try to rationalize our decisions and cloak them in some sort of rationale that's much higher and mightier than what it really is.
Me included.
Starsky
(And just FWIW, sho, I took the soft/be-the-cheating-spouse's-BFF stance the FIRST time my H cheated, in 2005. Clearly, it didn't work. Obviously, I'm only a few months into THIS round of piecing. But my H has told me that my "confidence" is what drew him back home this time. He's even told me that the strong stance I took irritated the snot outta him at the time but that he actually respects me more for fighting for him and our family. Just remember to do what works for you and your family.)
Wait, I thought "Do what works" was the
very heart of DBing???
OK, now I'm confused.
If someone is exposing to shame their cheating spouse, they are exposing for all the wrong reasons.
Starsky,
I salute you, sir.
Starsky there's nothing to be insulted by in my post, vis a vis you.
Come on, I think we both know that. (But no, I don't want to debate it).
I specifically mentioned what I most appreciate that you usually do (always?) which is
-you make it clear that you're respecting MWD's site and therefore not pushing your own agenda- but that this "way" worked for you.
True, Sometimes I get the feeling you want to push your approach a lot more, but unless I have you confused with someone else who did that, and got deleted, you have refrained from pushing it. You state that it's not her way; it simply is another approach and it worked for you.
You're right in saying we can agree to disagree, but I want to stress that I really do try to follow THIS site's philosophy. I don't raise other approaches here and then go into why THEY are better.
-And you stress the cleaning your own room first as well, which CAN easily get lost around here. There have been people here who jump on the affair bandwagon as soon as they learn of it even if just prior to that discovery, they own up to the fact that oops, maybe they've been lousy partners. The wife who wouldn't sleep with her h for yearS, took ownership of her part in things and THEN discovered an affair and "forgot" about her issues and blasted her 'cheating h" all the way to Timbuktu.
I gave the exact example of the type of behavior that I saw in a personal situation (the FB page for the high school class) & that type of action is what I believe is SO NOT helpful.
I have seen that happen here but I didn't want to get personal about it for obvious reasons, and so, I used a real life (but not identifiable) person's situation to illustrate that point. I stand by that example and the one I just mentioned about the SSM and the A.
But it's not sho's thread I was commenting on, (it is - but it was not the one aimed for) and so I'll go to the correct one.
I think it threw people off --and that's on me.
Mea culpa.
Sho,
Here's the link to my own story:
Choc/Puppy/Starsky backstory I hope you have a lotta time, lol.
If you want to cut to the meat, it was May 2007 when I discovered my wife's affair, and three months later when it ended and we began to reconcile.
Any questions, just holla.
Sho, there is a lot of info to be gained in reading Starskys sitch. Late 2009 I had him, Gucci, Coach, and AllanA all giving great advice to me. They were very influential in getting me through my tough times. The biggest thing I gained was the help in keeping me from taking any sort of doormat approach. I have great respect for all of them.
I hope you have a lot of timeI hope so, too, sho. I started reading Starsky's threads on a rainy day when I was in the throes of my sitch. I honestly don't think I made it all the way through before my H was already back home!
Lots of valuable info in there.
you guys rock. Thanks so much for the vote of confidence. I may have some questions for you as we get closer to Saturday and I plan what I am going to do. On a positive GAL note, I had my first guitar lesson today. Rock on!
YOU rock, buddy.
I've always thought I'd like to learn to play guitar.
What's the first tune you're gonna learn?
First tune that I will learn..i will be happy if i can learn a few chords. I love music, all kinds. But have no musical ability.
But I am going to try.
As I read through these comments, and some of Starsky's thread (lot to read still), I do believe in the hard boundary. We cannot work on our R if my W has a OM. Her heart figuratively and literally won't be in it. I know she saw the changes in me. She commented "I feel like I am married to a stranger" and "this guy (pointing to me) is a lot of fun." She even said "all I wanted was 10% of this not 100%." But she then backed most of those comments with "I have nothing left, my feelings have changed." The PA is what is preventing her from opening her heart and working on our M. That needs to end. How will it end? When she decides to end it. When will that be? Who knows...maybe when she realizes how great her family is. But I do know that the more time she spends in NYC, the harder this will be to address.
So how do I continue to show her what she is missing? Be super fun around my kids. But where I struggle is what I can do with/to/around her? I did a lot of great things for during the past six weeks. Was that enough time to show her the "new me"? Over the past six weeks, I have put a small flower on her bedside table that I refresh every few days, bought her different bottles of wine that she has mentioned that she likes, made her some great dinners at home (and for the kids of course), brought her coffee every morning, bought her magazines from the store, and have spent a ton of time talking and connecting. Does all of that end? I think so. But any reinforcements on that point are appreciated.
I grew up with a guitar in my lap. What type of music do you like?
First tune that I will learn..i will be happy if i can learn a few chords. I love music, all kinds. But have no musical ability.
But I am going to try.
As I read through these comments, and some of Starsky's thread (lot to read still), I do believe in the hard boundary. We cannot work on our R if my W has a OM. Her heart figuratively and literally won't be in it. I know she saw the changes in me. She commented "I feel like I am married to a stranger" and "this guy (pointing to me) is a lot of fun." She even said "all I wanted was 10% of this not 100%." But she then backed most of those comments with "I have nothing left, my feelings have changed." The PA is what is preventing her from opening her heart and working on our M. That needs to end. How will it end? When she decides to end it. When will that be? Who knows...maybe when she realizes how great her family is. But I do know that the more time she spends in NYC, the harder this will be to address.
So how do I continue to show her what she is missing? Be super fun around my kids. But where I struggle is what I can do with/to/around her? I did a lot of great things for during the past six weeks. Was that enough time to show her the "new me"? Over the past six weeks, I have put a small flower on her bedside table that I refresh every few days, bought her different bottles of wine that she has mentioned that she likes, made her some great dinners at home (and for the kids of course), brought her coffee every morning, bought her magazines from the store, and have spent a ton of time talking and connecting. Does all of that end? I think so. But any reinforcements on that point are appreciated.
Hey Shodan,
Your Sitch sounds Similar to mine in a lot of ways.
Even though my WW still is in a relationship with OM, spends hours with him while he's here, but claims it's strictly am EA at this point actually tries to say it's just a strong friendship there is still an OM in my book.
One thing she asks of me is that we do things together that we always enjoyed as a couple, ( by the way I won't do these anymore until OM leaves the country).
For example she likes to go fishing, fly-fishing, hiking, biking, to the gym etc. These are perfect times to spend time together and show her the new me.
Maybe you can think of things like that if she is willing to spend time with you alone.
As an aside, except for the gym thing, none of the other stuff is "scheduled" we may just wake up and I'll say hey do you want to go fishing today, or she has a few times asked me to dinner.
It seems to work better when it's spontaneous, I don't know about you but in my case if I scheduled stuff and plans changed or the place we were going messed up it would cause unnecessary anxiety , but if it's spontaneous and plans change it's much easier to brush off and move on to the next idea . Just my 2cents.
Ox, thanks for your involvement on my thread. Really appreciate it.
How do you balance doing things with her with knowing that the OM is in the picture?
Ox, thanks for your involvement on my thread. Really appreciate it.
How do you balance doing things with her with knowing that the OM is in the picture?
It's really hard to hang onto the roller coaster.
OM lives 6500 miles away. There's a small little war in his country right now.
It was she who asked the IC she was seeing if she would see me as well, this IC is a MC who is pro-marriage and very spiritual.
The MC has been helping me deal quite effectively.
So when the OM is not here she was sleeping in my bed and holding me at night etc, she told MC that she enjoys doing things with me.
All she does with OM is go out to eat , go for walks and listen to him talk and talk and talk, and then he shuts down and they just sit quietly and " reflect"
So apparently I am fulfilling a lot of emotional needs that he is not.
I am trying to be as Plan A as I can be when I am around her. Now I am starting to try and apply the MWD 180 more.
It's not hard to be around someone when you love them.
The MC believes that I am on an upward trajectory and OM is on a downward one.
She believes I am moving up faster then he is moving down which she says is typical because the WW worried that her " old husband" will show up once OM is gone.
The truth is when she went to his country the last time I went no contact with her for all 15 days , she came home asked me to leave the bedroom and said she was moving out for one month to get her head together.
Within 24 hours I had never left the bedroom and she decided she was " never" leaving the house.
At that point I decided I needed to become the husband no woman would want to leave.
Now with the OM here it's way way hard. She insists she's more like his cousin, that she meets him near her office and then they only go to public places. As of now everything does fit that pattern.
She says she moved into our guest room because she does not want to be in bed with any man and does not want to lie or manipulate anymore.
One thing I will tell you, she now kisses me on the mouth every night and says " goodnight, I love you"
I have not said "I love you in over two weeks". I never understood MWD's suggestion to not say it, but believe it or not I heard it right from my WW!
" I am so sick of that word, OM uses it so much it makes me want to PUKE, and Besides I know for sure how much you love me I would not care if I never heard I love you again"Well that was the last time I ever said it! She knows how much I do, if I didn't I would be gone
So I have decided to not Train with her on the weekend and to only do roommate things..example go food shopping , clean eat dinner at home, until OM leaves.
I apologize for the mini story but I wanted you to see if anything fits what you are dealing with.
25 posted the names of two videos on my thread for me to watch the one on "Fake It to you become it" made a MAJOR impact on me since I watched it.
question for everyone...she knows I know about the A. I drew that line that I don't want to live in an open M but I also want to work for my M and my family.
To that end, should I make the most of the time when she is here and plan a few fun family things but do nothing romantic for her. Or, does that send the wrong message that I am not standing strong and honoring what I said to her (that I know about the A and that she needs to end it so we can work on our M)?
I drew that line that I don't want to live in an open M but I also want to work for my M and my family.
By drawing that line, you ARE working for your M and your family!
You can't back down on your stance now- don't plan any family activities until she's able to prove the A is over. Otherwise, you just allow her to eat her cake.
I hear ya. My concern is my kids. I don't want to spend the next three months (possibly could take that long for her to end it) doing separate things from my W(or she does things with the kids without me). I know your view is the right way (and only way) but I am concerned about the kids.
Staying the proud papabear. Rock on.
So I just uncovered another lie. My wife had a work trip to London two days after she told me about her desire for a D. This trip had been planned for a few weeks. I of course thought nothing of it. But I just looked at her passport snd she has no stamp from London or reentering the US. uggh...
I hear ya. My concern is my kids. I don't want to spend the next three months (possibly could take that long for her to end it) doing separate things from my W(or she does things with the kids without me). I know your view is the right way (and only way) but I am concerned about the kids.
Staying the proud papabear. Rock on.
Here's the difference with us. I have s21 college graduate living on his own.
S16 still at home anxious child on medication completely has anxiety under control at this point. Entering 11th trying to get into IVY League or Equivalent.
S21 and his Fiancée 22 are hoping to get job in the NYC and move back to our house.
So I get your concern it is the same as mine. However my sons want WW and me to stay together they are old enough to support what's going on.
To me having the kids is a great way to GAL.
I look forward to my kids being he
re. I will do everything humanly possible to spend time with them if my WW chooses to join us fine.
Maybe what you can do is the same thing make plans with the kids. I know every week where I live there are fairs etc. Tell your wife what you are all up to but don't "ask" her to come. If she asks if she can come say yes. But while at whatever activity you choose to do focus on the kids.
When an if you go to a movie with the kids and she comes let the kids sit between the two of you.
So I just uncovered another lie. My wife had a work trip to London two days after she told me about her desire for a D. This trip had been planned for a few weeks. I of course thought nothing of it. But I just looked at her passport snd she has no stamp from London or reentering the US. uggh...
My DD3 which is when I think the affair finally went PA( they were in a known fleabag motel) I drive by the place my wife worked I wanted to surprise her and take her to lunch ( I thought she and OM were no contact), her car is not in her designated spot I drive all over the lot no car. Then I checked her iPhone location...flea bag motel
That night she tells me you must have not seen my car it was there you were looking in the wrong spot!
So remember what they say! Believe only 50% what you see and nothing that you hear!
Oh and my WW really was smart she keeps her passport locked in her desk at Work in her private office that is locked all the time!
This is no fun, I have her caught but she has not admitted to it. She is lying to the kids about where she is and what she is doing, which breaks my heart
Hi Sho,
I'm so sorry about the "London" thing; I am sure there will continue to be other "shoes" that will drop. Once you get over the initial shock of the actual affair, it really ends up being where the DECEIT and the DISRESPECT bother you the most, as strange as that may sound.
I hope you are documenting everything. Wouldn't charges from that show up on your debit card or your Amex account? I'm wondering if she has another cc, in her own name, that she has paperless billing on? No matter; in any even she will have to do a FULL financial disclosure, under risk of perjury, as part of any legal action should things come to that. Judges don't look too kindly on squandering family assets on affairs, ESPECIALLY when there are kids involved.
As for doing stuff as a family, I would keep it about 90% with you and the kids on the weekends. Maybe occasionally "Hey, I'm taking the kids to _______, if you'd like to join us we're leaving about 3." Very casual and almost business-like. If she joins you, great; if she turns you down say "No problem. We won't be gone long" (or whatever). Do NOT beg her or pursue in any way.
Also, be wary that she doesn't use those family times to be texting or phoning OM -- that will be a boundary you will have to lay early and firmly.
But make sure you absolutely schedule some things with JUST you and the kids, as this is one of those "reality" jolts she's going to need to learn to live with. If she's going to basically fire you as her husband, these will be some of the realities she will have to grow accustom to, and the hope is that when these things happen now, she won't like how they feel and will make a move back toward her family.
Starsky
This is no fun, I have her caught but she has not admitted to it. She is lying to the kids about where she is and what she is doing, which breaks my heart
I know it sukks, Sho, but -- other than laying and enforcing some healthy boundaries (ex.: "no texting OM in front of the kids") there's really not much you can do. Everyone draws the line in a different place; I chose to ultimately enforce a "NO DECEIT" boundary only to our ADULT children.
Just don't allow her to lie to your face. When she does, just put your hand up in the "stop" position and do the "Please stop it; we both know you're lying to me right now and it's incredibly disrespectful" thing.
Starsky
This is no fun, I have her caught but she has not admitted to it. She is lying to the kids about where she is and what she is doing, which breaks my heart
I know it sukks, Sho, but -- other than laying and enforcing some healthy boundaries (ex.: "no texting OM in front of the kids") there's really not much you can do. Everyone draws the line in a different place; I chose to ultimately enforce a "NO DECEIT" boundary only to our ADULT children.
Just don't allow her to lie to your face. When she does, just put your hand up in the "stop" position and do the "Please stop it; we both know you're lying to me right now and it's incredibly disrespectful" thing.
Starsky
Listen to Starsky's comment on putting your hand up. My IC and the MC both told me to do that and it works. When ww told me that her A is not PA anymore I did this.
She for really upset and said it's the truth let's go right after he leaves and I will take a lie detector test!
I could tell from the way she was acting that she was not lying to me.
There have since been other things where her reaction pointed that she was. She would just walk away and mumble under her breath!
Sho,
I know you're anxious about how to behave and what to do and say when your wife comes home tomorrow. Remind me of where she was when you found out about A (has she been home since "she knows that you know" [even if she denies it]?).
Also, tell us what -- during your "Plan A"/"Be the best Husband I Can Be" phase -- you would have done when she came back.
I'd like to know that before I advise you.
thanks,
Starsky
Have you promised the kids something for tomorrow night, or made any other previously announced plans?
I discovered the A on Sunday, when she was here in Boston. This is when I found the text messages. She of course denied it and I just tried to believe her. She then left for NYC on Sunday afternoon. I really figured it out on Monday morning, which is when I texted her that I knew who SG was. So I have not seen her since Sunday. She gets back tomorrow.
The kids asked if we could do a dinner out Saturday night, so I am planning to keep that promise.
Under the Plan A assumption, I would have booked a yoga class for us to go to when she gets in tomorrow and then made a res at a restaurant for the four of us. On Sunday, we probably would just chill, maybe get some coffee/breakfast with the kids and do whatever came to mind. What I don't want to do is get in a competition with her to see who can "be the better parent and not involve the other."
What time does she get back tomorrow?
she lands at 230pm or so, and then comes home and goes to a 4pm yoga class.
OK. I was going to suggest leaving her with the kids this afternoon before your family dinner plans, but that's not feasible.
I would be busy doing something manly around the house or yard when she got back. (Are you picking her up at airport or does she have her own car?).
Be upbeat, but not syrupy sweet. Confident, "I'm gonna be okay" is what you want to project, but with "something missing" from the flower-leaving, foot-rubbing guy she left last weekend.
Then I'd do an early dinner with the family, get home and get the kids to bed, CHANGE YOUR CLOTHES (including new shoes -- trust me on this, WOMEN NOTICE SHOES!)/PUT ON DIFFERENT COLOGNE, and tell her the "I'm going out for a bit; I won't be late" thing.
And then don't be.
Starsky
^^^ This is going to feel very strange and backwards to do.
But it's smart.
She will come home on her own in her car and then rush off to yoga. So yeah, I probably will be out with the kids or maybe playing with them in the yard.
I did plan to do something sat night when we get back from dinner.
Excellent.
Seriously, buy some new shoes and maybe get a haircut and some new cologne. Women notice that chit.
If she tries to engage you this weekend (and she WILL!!) about "where your head is at," "what you're thinking," "what you're planning to do," tell her:
"Not sure yet. This isn't what I would have wished for, but I do know also that I'll be okay. We both still have a lot of decisions to make." (or similar)
If she presses you specifically on whether or not you've talked to a lawyer, say "Considering what's just happened, do you REALLY think I owe you any explanations right now? Really?" -- and then don't answer her.
Same answer if she pushes you about where you're going/where you were tonite.
If she tries to deny her affair, or -- probably more likely -- "trickle truth" you, say:
"Just stop it -- we both know you're lying to me right now. I know all about you and SG, and I'll say this once and ONLY once: IT NEEDS TO STOP. It's incredibly disrespectful to not only me and our marriage, but to our FAMILY." If she continue to lie to your face, end the conversation.
If she asks you who you've TOLD (and she will!!!), say "I'm not getting into that. I will do what I need to do to get the support and counsel I need from people I trust. I suspect you'll do the same." Maybe add a "I will say this, tho -- I'm not going to lie to cover up your affair."
Remember, she's had ALL WEEK to get her story straight, and to plan how SHE is going to face you this weekend and what she's going to say.
I think you'd be wise to expect an Academy Award-winning performance.
It's also likely that she may have already done some "spin"/damage control with her own family, to preempt you.
Thanks for this advice. I suspect she will do one of three things: deny, deny and deny; say that she wants to separate and get space, while still denying the A; finally she will ask for the divorce AGAIN but actually get a lawyer. None of those feel great. Given this guy is an ex boyfriend whom she loved, she probably has convinced herself she is in love with him. They is going to cloud her mind. I know what to say about scenarios one and two. I think my answer is the same for # 3: not what I want, we both have a lot to think about, I cannot stop her from filing for a D and that my first concern is our family and our kids.
Some other things to consider, if you have a beard, shave to a goatee. If you're clean shaven, consider growing it out. Change it up, but keep it clean. Always look your best.
The other question I have us: she may want to take the kids somewhere without me or plan something but not asked me about it (on Sunday). I assume that I don't go or ask to go, right? Play it cool and let her see that I have GAL?
Some other things to consider, if you have a beard, shave to a goatee. If you're clean shaven, consider growing it out. Change it up, but keep it clean. Always look your best.
Love it, and I did exactly that! (grew the goat)
The other question I have us: she may want to take the kids somewhere without me or plan something but not asked me about it (on Sunday). I assume that I don't go or ask to go, right? Play it cool and let her see that I have GAL?
Yep -- bingo. And when she gets back from that, you should either be not around or busy doing some long-neglected project or something.
Thanks for this advice. I suspect she will do one of three things: deny, deny and deny; . . .
Here, Sho -- thought you could use a laugh for a stress-reliever today:
"Deny, Deny, Deny"
The other question I have us: she may want to take the kids somewhere without me or plan something but not asked me about it (on Sunday). I assume that I don't go or ask to go, right? Play it cool and let her see that I have GAL?
Here is my two cents:
She may decide to move out of the bedroom or get you to leave it. Don't you leave the Master Bedroom tell her she has to.
Don't get upset or beg her to stay in the bedroom.
Many women in affairs continue to consider themselves monogamous. The problem is they are monogamous with the AP!!!
And if hes anything like the AP I am dealing with HE WILL ACT LIKE HE IS The Husband and you are the OM!! Just saying..
I have been doing a lot of thinking today and trying to put myself in her shoes. Specifically, let's assume that I was having the affair. I am picturing this picture perfect of a woman who loves me unconditionally, makes me feel like I am the only man on earth. I think or know that I love her. And when my W asks if I am having an A, I would deny it. I would almost be offended (how dare you). But if she started not really caring about me, did things without me and did not tell me where she was going, I would be somewhat perplexed. If she started to dress nice and look good, I would be more perpelxed. If I tried to push her buttons by taking the kids somewhere without her, and she said "have fun, I have stuff to do", I would be very perplexed. Shouldn't she be pining away for me? Shouldn't see beg me to come back? And when I was out with the OW and she didn't ask me where I was, I would be confused. By seeing these "good" qualifies in my wife, who is now not showing interest in me, I wonder if it would make the OW look less attractive?
If instead, she pursued me, or worked on the areas where I had issues (e.g., in the case of men, and to quote from his needs/her needs, sexually fulfillment and relationship companionship), I would find that to be desperate. So the same goes for me...I cannot provide to her the two basic needs of woman (affection and conversation) b/c that would seem desperate. But I can do the other three...honesty/openness, financial commitment and family commitment.
And by GAL and focusing on me, I actually will make her want to be with me (at least that is the plan). If she really loves the OM and wants to break up our M and hurt our kids over it, than I really cannot stop her.
Some mindreading in there, but I think you've mostly got it. Put much more simply, "People tend to value that which is difficult to achieve," as I say often here. Plus she needs to see and feel that "Sho is NOT okay with this." (soooooooo many people on these boards SAY THOSE WORDS -- "I will not live in an open marriage" -- but their ACTIONS shout otherwise!)
I'd be careful about the "financial commitment" part however. Do NOT do anything to make her overly comfortable in her current arrangement, or that enables her affair in any way. If she indicates she plans to basically fire you as her husband (by either making a legal move, or really just continuing in her affair even after she knows you know about it) . . . then you no longer have an obligation to protect her financially. She works and earns her own income, and she's going to need to start putting on her BGPs if this is the path she insists on continuing down.
Starsky
Did we ever answer who is paying for her cellphone?
her cellphone is paid via our joint account. She uses it to communicate with my daughter as well.
I would no longer pay for ANYTHING she uses to conduct her affair, and I would let her know that. She can get her own phone (she has her own income), as even wayward-wife-paid cellphones are really good at communicating with daughters.
That can wait for next week to discuss however. You should begin to (if you haven't already) document any ways she is spending assets on her affair.
Starsky, I have been reading through your story (still a while to go). Where I am, you seemed to struggle with how to draw the line and say "we cannot work on our M if you are having an A" AND wanting to show her that you were the "better choice". Looks like you turned the corner where I am. I believe that I gave my W a glimpse into the new Shodan and that I am the better choice with the previous 6-7 week but I still struggle with that. Did I do enough for long enough?
I know she sees D as the way out. She asked for one and is having an A. Cannot get more clear than that. I am not sure she is prepared to tell the kids this (or even mention separation to them since se gets enough of that with her work travel). She has mentioned separation a few times, which seems counter intuitive to making this work but then again, I need to set her free, right? Only when she somehow comes to her senses will we start working on our R and our M.
I believe that I gave my W a glimpse into the new Shodan and that I am the better choice with the previous 6-7 week but I still struggle with that. Did I do enough for long enough?
It's 6-7 weeks longer than I did it.
When my wife made the decision to fall into her affair, our marriage was at its WORST, and *I* was at my worst! (just go back and read the posts earlier than May 2007) Although I'd always been a good husband, I had slowly began -- intentionally -- NOT meeting my wife's needs, because I was tired of her not meeting mine. I was distant, and surly, and moody and not even as good of a father as I was capable of. I'll always have to live with the knowledge of knowing that I had contributed to the dysfunctional marital environment enough that my wife (who's a VERY traditional girl) would even CONSIDER adultery . . . much less commit it.
So I had to basically "design/build" my "Plan A"/"Plan B," on the fly, but with the help of some great folks here. I had to
simultaneously (and quickly!) try to show her my changes,
while coming down hard legally and financially and try to bust her affair.
You had WAY more of a head start than I did, Shodan.
Starsky
I should really add to that, that I had the double (and probably even trickier) challenge of "How do I give her even GLIMPSES of a 'new-and-improved Starsky' (Plan A), without sending the message that I'm condoning her affair?"
Because if you're reading my sitch, you'll see that i NEVER WAVERED -- EVER -- from my "I will not live in an open marriage" boundary, I came down HARD financially, eventually even legally (filed for divorce) and I even decided to lay a "NO DECEIT" boundary.
So THROUGH all of that, I had to still give her glimpses that I "got it," and that if she did decide to end her affair and come back to the marriage, she would find a MUCH better Starsky, who was willing to work on my part of our issues and who was willing to forgive. (which we could do an ENTIRE THREAD on, as it gets too overlooked around here, and I rarely talk enough about it)
You've already hit on, on your own, one of the key ways you let her see that (through your interactions with your kids, and then also with others), but it's a challenge to be sure.
Dr. Harley recommends that you do "Plan A" for at LEAST 6 months, and recommends that men do up to 12. Personally, I didn't have the stomach for enduring that kind of ongoing deceit, and damage to my family. That's the main reason I pushed as hard and as fast as I did. If people feel they can do it for a year and still not have their family's finances, emotional and even medical health suffer, then I have no problem with that. I couldn't do it and I have actually found that MEN have a harder time doing it longer, not the other way around. Because in-your-face, unrepentant affairs are downright emasculating.
Starsky
Thanks for this advice (as always)
I am not going to waver. But if my wife plans something, i say no thanks and GAL but my kids want me to go with them. I don't want to hurt my kids. Also, what about family dinners at night? Do I just not do them anymore, or should I do them with the family but only be "nice" to my W. Do I ask her about her day, her trip to NYC?
sho,
I would continue with the "neighborly niceties." If your W isn't comfortable with family dinners, then she can go elsewhere. Or she can sit there and stew in her uncomfortableness if she so chooses. No need to alter your usual family togetherness with the kids.
My H and I - when he was still involved with OW - attempted to do some things together with the kids, including cookouts, because S8 would ask. It often (okay, every time) ended up leading to H cake-eating. Sigh.
Maybe don't borrow trouble just yet by projecting alllllll the "what ifs." I think you have a VERY strong handle on where you are and what you feel is best for this sitch. Sometimes, planning for every "what if" accidentally gives you expectations. I don't think that's what's going on here. But I do know we could spend a day talking about what COULD happen. And the one thing we didn't think about will be the ONE thing that will come up.
Go with the flow this weekend. Trust yourself and all you've learned here in just the past few days. If she offers for you to go with her and the kids and you WANT to go for the kids, go. But I'd at least plan a time or two to get out of the house alone to GAL and handle your "exit strategy" just as Starsky has detailed.
Remember this is all soooo new, so it's hard telling how things will be. Focus on the few things you know you need to do FOR SURE. You have a great "gameplan" prepared.
You are confident, (neighborly) nice and quite the busy man all a sudden, who is a little mysterious and GAL now. Be cordial and friendly (but not too friendly).
I'd play the conversations by ear. I don't think it hurts to wear a smile and ask how a day was if it comes across as natural.
Remember: "I don't want any of this, but I won't stand in your way." That overriding thought may help guide you in making decisions on how to react/respond to things this weekend. Starsky may have a different opinion, but that's my .05 (as always, adjusted for inflation).
Will be thinking of you!
Train, you rock. I think I just needed a pep talk. I admit, I am afraid what she is going to say. Might my calling her out on the A force her to dig in her heels and ask for the D, or a S? That definitely makes things harder.
But I cannot control her. I only can control myself.
Rock on!
Nope -- wouldn't change a word, Train -- that's great advice.
You will do just fine, Sho. You seem to have EXCELLENT instincts. Trust them, and know that you do NOT need to make ANY decisions this weekend. These things tend to move slower than you might think.
Starsky
Remember she is also AT LEAST as nervous about seeing you - and about how the weekend will go down - as you are about seeing her. She has feelings, too. Lots of them.
The difference? You've been mulling this over, and you've developed a plan. You're A LOT more prepared than you probably feel. And that's going to help keep you calm and centered.
Starsky's right: you have incredible instincts. Trust yourself.
Hello shodan,
I'm praying and hoping things work out for you this weekend man. I've spent some time reading and following your post here. I think you on the right track man. Continue to follow the guidance of starsky, train and others. Do not give up but be the best man only a fool will be crazy enough to leave.
My only advice for you is to be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your action. Be careful what you do, for your actions determine your character and who you are shapes who you will become
Don't speak defeat....this's not the end of your story. Declare victory in your life and marriage this weekend. You have a long way to go but you can do it!
Hello shodan,
I'm praying and hoping things work out for you this weekend man. I've spent some time reading and following your post here. I think you on the right track man. Continue to follow the guidance of starsky, train and others. Do not give up but be the best man only a fool will be crazy enough to leave.
My only advice for you is to be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your action. Be careful what you do, for your actions determine your character and who you are shapes who you will become
Don't speak defeat....this's not the end of your story. Declare victory in your life and marriage this weekend. You have a long way to go but you can do it!
Train, how did you finally lay down the law? What caused your H to come back? And with whom did he have the A? Just trying to learn from you and take some solace perhaps in how things worked for you? I vacillate between being a strong papabear for my kids to being angry due to her lies and deception to just pure bewilderment that the W that I love could do this to her family.
Yep. I feel you.
Fortunately for me, my H's A was with someone he'd just recently met; she worked at the grocery store he would frequent after work to pick up things I needed to make dinner. Yyyyep. Ugh. They can come from ANYWHERE.
H lived here at home for 2 weeks after I discovered the A. I tried (a version of) the "Plan A" approach during that time (even though I didn't know that's what I was doing). H said he would end his A - at least temporarily - to work on our M. Finally, my H - in what *appeared* to be withdrawals from OW after less than a week of NC - disrespected me in front of S8 (which is INCREDIBLY out of character for him). He yelled: "I don't want to BE here anymore!!!!"
And that's when I started putting fear aside. I kicked him out and changed the locks. H started seeing OW again. I exposed the A to OW's H.
And then I started posting here.
I tried "drawing him closer to me" while he was away. It "worked" ... sorta. But I just ended up with a hurt heart ... and he ate cake ... and he DID - for a little while - have OW AND me. (That's before I really had any firm, stated boundaries in place.)
(Is it starting to come together for you a little WHY Starsky and I say you have SUCH a great head start here?!? I was sooooo winging things and losing ground and flubbing things up in the first weeks of my sitch. And I'd say even *I* had a head start because I was a DB vet; I'd been here in 2005, the FIRST time my H cheated. But I played nice-and-doormat-BFF that time. Which I guess you could argue "brought him home." But the way I handled things clearly didn't work to build enough respect in my H for him to not cheat on me again. We also didn't work on our main issues AT ALL.)
But back to THIS time: I influenced the quick turn-around of my sitch by finally laying down boundaries and staying consistent after I realized that my H would carry on relationships with me AND OW for far longer than *I* could/would tolerate being MY husband's "OW."
That's when I finally (and thanks to advice I received here) started implementing boundaries. It DID NOT seem to "work" at first. I was watching for signs that my H was being pulled closer to me like he did those first few weeks after he was gone. Those signs didn't come. In fact, it seemed my boundaries were pushing him away!!! I vividly remember Starsky saying something to the effect of: "Boundaries do one or two things VERY well; 'drawing them back to you' isn't one of them. At least not at first."
That's the first time I realized (and we even discuss it in my threads, which I'll link here once I'm at my computer) that I was really pulling from more approaches than just DB to try to save my marriage. I was taking more of a "blended" or - as Starsky called it - "dual track" approach. And I committed to it.
It scared the crap out of me. But I knew it was what I had to do for ME. And if my M stood a chance of surviving, it's also what I had to do to have the best chance.
I would still be light and warm and friendly - and dressed up - when I saw H. I was GAL often and would often make sure he saw me dressed for my GAL plans. I also made the decision that I was moving on from our M and physically moving with the kids a couple hours away.
That's what seemed to really flip H's switch.
According to H, my confidence persuaded him to come back. That confidence, especially stacked beside OW's clinginess and whininess, became the better option for H.
After an A is discovered, the LBS is the one who is usually sad and moping while the AP - having his/her ego stroked - has the confidence. That's why THAT person looks so attractive to our spouses. We flip the script a little when we start demonstrating confidence ... at just the same time we have backed off enough to give the AP time to start showing some warts.
It may take a while of consistent changes, sho - that's why they caution "this is a marathon, not a sprint" - but I've noticed that the stronger, firmer stance seems to have success ... AND doesn't seem to take as long to have an effect. I'm thinking it is especially effective when men employ it.
I know I just rambled there. But hopefully that starts to answer the questions you asked. I'll link my threads shortly; there aren't that many (four maybe?).
Another question, one which I asked before. I know my W has confided in one friend, and probably a few others. They are getting together for a girl's weekend in two weeks. One of the friends is divorced (husband cheater on her), one is separate and treats her H like chit, another has a rocky marriage and the fourth is in a good spot. Three of these friends knew my W from college and know the ex BF (current OM). They hated him. He treated her very poorly in college. But, I know they don't know about the A and they will want to console her and tell her to do what makes her happy. If a D makes her happy, they will support her. But, I doubt they would be so direct and supporting if they knew the full story. How can my W possibly be thinking straight if she is having an A? She is painting me in a very negative light (I am sure) so part of me wants to just warn them to get the full story.
Bad idea, right? Or is this laying down the law and just showing her that I am not a doormat.
I'll take a stab at that question, too, but trust me when I tell you: that is a TOUCHY subject. And I don't feel comfortable "advising" you one way or the other. I think it's a very personal decision.
MWD would advise against that exposure, as we have already discussed in your threads.
There's another camp, though, that would support such exposure ... IF it is done quickly after the A is discovered and in a LOVING way (eg. "I know W is planning a trip with you ladies soon. I just wanted to let you all know that I love W very much, and will do anything to keep my family together. But we are having some issues in our M right now, and I just recently discovered W is having an A with OM.") There are actually sample letters online for that plan's "exposure." If I remember correctly, it even recommends exposure to all your spouse's friends on sites like Facebook ... AND exposure to the OP's FB friends. But my personal opinion is that takes things way too far. THAT, to me, is when a person will look crazed like 25 was talking about the other day.
But that's just me.
I should also add, sho, that I exposed my H's A to his best friend, who also was the person H moved in with during our separation. I also told his BFF that I would be willing to work on my M if and when H ended his A.
His BFF promised his house would not be a "bachelor pad" for H. But it ended up that he DID allow H to have OW over there for a sexual rendezvous or 12.
What did I expect, right? OF COURSE he would allow that, even though I asked him to support my efforts to work on saving my M.
But it DID change my relationship with H's BFF, who I had always considered a friend, too.
We will still talk, but I have lost an immense amount of respect for him. Which is very sad because he and I used to talk even more than he and H would. And now that H is home, I'm wondering if BFF regrets supporting the A. It changed a lot.
Hello shodan,
I'm praying and hoping things work out for you this weekend man. I've spent some time reading and following your post here. I think you on the right track man. Continue to follow the guidance of starsky, train and others. Do not give up but be the best man only a fool will be crazy enough to leave.
My only advice for you is to be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your action. Be careful what you do, for your actions determine your character and who you are shapes who you will become
Don't speak defeat....this's not the end of your story. Declare victory in your life and marriage this weekend. You have a long way to go but you can do it!
Hey almost, you should post this on the thread of everyone going through this who fits the pattern. I am going to save what I bolded and look at it everything I have to engage my WW!
Sho ...you should do the same!
Sho, it sounds like only one of those friends is even worth potentially exposing to. It's only worth telling the people who would support your M. Train, that is too bad, sounds like you really could have had some support in the BFF, but it shows you really never know.
Thinking of you, sho!!!
You've got this thing, man.
Thanks she landed and texted me to let me know that she landed. I am at the pond with my kids, playing and having a great time. But thinking of my sitch of course, people asking where my W is and I of course need to "lie".
Going into tonight with no expectations ( at least trying to) and staying positive and upbeat
Rock on!
You got this, Sho. STRENGTH and HONOR.
Starsky
Good luck SHO.
I have been exactly where you are at this exact moment...including the story telling about whereabouts.
You sound strong, buddy!
Rock on, for sure!
I just ran into her briefly (by accident). Her yoga class was cancelled so she pulled by in her car while I was walking the dog. I probably a little too cold frankly. I told her we had dinner plans and that she could meet us if she wanted. I also reiterated that I know and she knows she is not being honest with me. I told her that I am fighting for my marriage, my kids and our home. She said we would talk later. I asked if she would be honest and she said yes (with tears in her eyes). I told her that I could not talk tonight because I was going out. She asked if I had a babysitter and I said no, you are watching them. She said we would talk when I got back tonight.
I hate to be a pessimist, but my guess is she loves the OM and really wants a divorce, but feels very guilty about it, me and the kids. But I need to stand strong. I don't want to lose my W but I cannot make her stay with me. If she wants to destroy our life, our home and our marriage (in addition to our kids), then that is her decision.
I feel angry, which is not the right way to approach tonight. I need to calm down and PMA.
I just ran into her briefly (by accident). Her yoga class was cancelled so she pulled by in her car while I was walking the dog. I probably a little too cold frankly. I told her we had dinner plans and that she could meet us if she wanted. I also reiterated that I know and she knows she is not being honest with me. I told her that I am fighting for my marriage, my kids and our home. She said we would talk later. I asked if she would be honest and she said yes (with tears in her eyes). I told her that I could not talk tonight because I was going out. She asked if I had a babysitter and I said no, you are watching them. She said we would talk when I got back tonight.
I hate to be a pessimist, but my guess is she loves the OM and really wants a divorce, but feels very guilty about it, me and the kids. But I need to stand strong. I don't want to lose my W but I cannot make her stay with me. If she wants to destroy our life, our home and our marriage (in addition to our kids), then that is her decision.
I feel angry, which is not the right way to approach tonight. I need to calm down and PMA.
Be strong Sho, my wife and I have delayed our collaborative divorce. She is still in some sort of relationship with OM and as Wonka has stated I am like her gay roommate, but we are still in the same house and do things together.
My plans were to put up with this for as long as possible and Plan A her, now I am more in the 180 , if she sees him again I have committed to my sons that I will go Plan B.
So I know what your going through. The suspense is the most painful. You do know the only person who really has the most to loose here is your wife. There is a big big percentage that she and OM will not last once she goes to him. By then you will be in a better place and may have found someone else.
1. You handled that just fine. This is where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. AND you were caught a little off-guard. You done good.
2. Don't project and mind-read. We have NO idea what she will say tonight.
3. Remember to remain calm, strong and resolved. Do not give her ANY reason to say: "See?!? This is why I can't be with you!"
4. Did I say how awesome you did? A far cry from the vast majority of people who start off begging and pleading and crying.
Hang tough!!
Also, sho, put that anger aside tonight and LISTEN to your W. Really HEAR what she is saying. Depending on where her mind is today, there may be some re-writing of marital history. But listen for the complaints she has that STING.
These are the areas on which you can work to improve.
Awesome advice, Train. Sho you did just fine. Strong, calm. I'd've preferred you to keep her hanging a bit today, but that's fine.
Do stop asking --or even expecting -- her to be honest with you. At BEST she's going to trickle-truth you. If you KNOW she's lying, do the "stop" thing, but don't ASK her to be honest. Maybe say "I would 'expect' you to be honest with me, as that's always been a rule in our family."
Two ears, one mouth. Zero decisions.
Praying for you,
Starsky
Also, sho, put that anger aside tonight and LISTEN to your W. Really HEAR what she is saying. Depending on where her mind is today, there may be some re-writing of marital history. But listen for the complaints she has that STING.
These are the areas on which you can work to improve.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sho this is advice I wish I had a year ago!
Awesome advice, Train. Sho you did just fine. Strong, calm. I'd've preferred you to keep her hanging a bit today, but that's fine.
Do stop asking --or even expecting -- her to be honest with you. At BEST she's going to trickle-truth you. If you KNOW she's lying, do the "stop" thing, but don't ASK her to be honest. Maybe say "I would 'expect' you to be honest with me, as that's always been a rule in our family."
Two ears, one mouth. Zero decisions.
Praying for you,
Starsky
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ditto!
Quick update...when I got back from going out (950pm), she was asleep, so we never talked.
I met a buddy for a beer and we talked about my sitch. Ironically, he had an A several years ago. Fell totally in love with the OW. His wife found out, confronted him and said "you need to decide what you want. I am on a 'train' with the kids and this family moving in this direction (points somewhere) and if you want on the train, you need to leave the other part of your life for good." Turns out, she had read DR and practiced it on him. He said it worked very well on him and woke him up from the fog. He learned from that point that M is work. But she also was super patient and did not push him. She went about her life like he was gone already. He realized that she was super independent and did not need him, which drew him back.
My W and I spoke but she did not admit to the A. At first she denied it but then finally admitted that they have been talking. I told her to stop lying in a very stern voice. She said that is the issue...I am so controlling, she has never been happy in our 15 yr marriage and she does not want our future together. I said that we cannot talk about our M and our family while she is having an A. I told her that I know all about it, the weekends away, the lies and the deceit. She continued to say that it was not an A. They have been talking. She said he is married and has two kids. Not sure that I believe that part (I am pretty sure the OM is divorced).
She was mad that I knew so much and demonstrated to that I am vindictive and mean. She also said that I have been not a part of the family for years (not true) and that I have been super secretive (again not true). She was trying to justify her A without admitting to it. She was mad that I went out last night and did not want to talk with her. I told her that I had plans. But, she saw this as controlling because I would talk to her on her terms.
Is she right that I have been controlling over the years? Yes. But not as bad as she seems to think of course.
I definitely did not handle this well because I kept repeating "I am committed to my M, my family and our kids. But that we can discuss our M and our family as long as she is having an A." She continued to deny the A and went to yoga.
I haven't been following your sitch closely but I just want to put this out there as food for thought:
If you agree with her that you are controlling, then how can you determine how she experienced that degree?
For context: few people would call my husband controlling in the usual sense. But in the areas where he was, to me, it felt extreme. The level of anxiety I would feel in those moments blocked out every other consideration. If we were leaving for a road trip and I was fifteen minutes later than I said I'd be, I'd be in a state of near panic trying to get everything done.
Now that we're separated, the level of relief and release I feel is difficult to express. Like, to the point that although he left me, it is one of the factors that made me question how much I wanted him back. And this is from a guy I would not generally describe as controlling, and who never set out to be.
So if you acknowledge that you are at all controlling, seriously consider that. She is an adult, one that you trust your children and your household to. Is any level of control necessary, desirable, or acceptable? Would you want to be treated that way, even a little?
I'm not defending her A by any means. But she gave you information about what she found intolerable. If you want to save your marriage you need to take that information seriously.
The line you were walking in that conversation was a narrow one, and I'm sure the vets will show up and speak to that. I just want to emphasize the point she was trying to make because going forward that information will probably have a huge bearing on your success in repairing the marriage.
I thought you handled it pretty well, Sho. Having made your statement, do NOT keep repeating it as it will only weaken it and come across as holier-than-thou.
She tried to trickle-truth you, as I'd expected.
The "I've never been happy" stuff is pure SCRIPT; it's probably stated 95+% of the time. I imagine that you have anniversary cards and hundreds of other shared family experiences with her that indicate otherwise. They say this to justify what the did; it's a "compartmentalizing" thing, morally.
You stood your ground; LET HER BE today. Remain upbeat, but not syrupy so.
I'm sorry she's continuing to lie to you; I know that stings.
I'd bet $5,000 that the "went to yoga" thing is to go update OM.
I know I have been controlling. My dad is that way with my mom. I truly hate that I can be that way and know that my wife feels great freedom being a part from me now when she travels. The A is giving her the strength to stand up to me. In a weird way, maybe it would have been better if I had not known about the A because I know she liked the guy she was now seeing. But by confronting her about the A, she sees me as controlling and is "proving" to herself why she needs to leave me.
To be less controlling, I need to:
- not ask her to tell me the truth
- let her do what she wants, never ask where she is going
- GAL
- Focus on my kids
- Show her that I am a better man
I know I have been controlling. My dad is that way with my mom. I truly hate that I can be that way and know that my wife feels great freedom being a part from me now when she travels. The A is giving her the strength to stand up to me. In a weird way, maybe it would have been better if I had not known about the A because I know she liked the guy she was now seeing. But by confronting her about the A, she sees me as controlling and is "proving" to herself why she needs to leave me.
To be less controlling, I need to:
- not ask her to tell me the truth
- let her do what she wants, never ask where she is going
- GAL
- Focus on my kids
- Show her that I am a better man
Pretty much, but try not to put TOO much on the "you're too controlling" complaint. It's stated by probably 90% of wives caught having affairs, especially after their betrayed husband lays down the "I will not live in an open marriage" boundary.
The challenge is now going to be that there are parts of this process now you're going to HAVE to control, and you're also going to have to enforce your boundaries. You have GOT to draw strength and confidence from your performance and genuine changes during the past 6-7 weeks and trust that she fully experienced them. Again, that is more than most of us were able to do!
Starsky
Shodan, I hope you took my words in the spirit of helpfulness they were intended.
With regard to the affair, I repeat that I defer to the vets.
Keep an eye out for other areas in which you tend to be controlling. For example, my H used to hang out with me in the kitchen while I made dinner. Rather than talk to me much about HIS day, he would ask constant, constant questions about mine, never share anything of himself, and in between, tell me when to stir, adjust the temperature, add seasoning, whether I was tasting the dish enough to know if it needed seasoning, etc. He thought he was being "helpful" and "participating" -- it drove me completely nuts.
Those tiny things were actually more insulting to me than larger issues. If he could have let me get through dinner in my own way and just enjoyed my company I would have responded to him much more positively.
But again, I'm only talking about that specific issue, on all else I defer to Starsky & Mr. Bond.
Yes by all means continue with the genuine self-improvements, Sho. Just do them for YOU, to make yourself a better man. Don't do them to try and please your wayward wife.
Remember, your current stance is "Look, you're a grown woman. I can't control you and frankly I have no desire to. I'm only telling you what *I* need in a marriage, and a third person doesn't work for me."
Remember, for 6-7 weeks she was getting the best of both worlds. She got her physical (sorry) and emotional needs met by her OM, and her emotional, financial and stability needs (not sure about physical??) met by you, who was pursuing her in spades.
Think what kind of entitlement "high" she must have been riding. Her affair was a secret (secrets are fun, and intriguing, and taboo and exciting), and she had TWO MEN pursuing her.
That all just came crashing down.
The dynamics of THEIR relationship just changed dramatically (and so did yours). Their conversations and interactions are going to be 90% about YOU now (what's Sho thinking? What's he going to do? Has he seen a lawyer? Etc).
And that's a GOOD thing.
I also suspect your confronting her as she left for NY totally ruined the romantic week they had planned. Nothing wrong with a little "infidelitus interruptus. " :o)
We talked some more and I realized that by asking for the truth, I am pushing her away b/c she thinks that is controlling of me. She said breaking into her phone shows that I am controlling. She "explained" away the OM and said they are friends, leaning on each other, etc. She said he is married with two kids.
I don't believe her but I think my tactic of pushing for the truth won't work. I need to show her that I am not controlling. That seems to be her #1 concern and having this A is her decision, not mine. I don't want to be the "gay roommate" but I also know that if she does not see the good times, she will just continue to see my as controlling.
I am a bit confused right now what I should do.
Sho,
Which part of "LEAVE HER BE" didn't you understand?
NO "R" (relationship) CONVOS!!!!
We talked some more and I realized that by asking for the truth, I am pushing her away b/c she thinks that is controlling of me.
. . .
I don't believe her but I think my tactic of pushing for the truth won't work. I need to show her that I am not controlling.
Who told you to "push for the truth?" In fact I'm pretty sure I specifically said NOT to. Only to end the convo and walk away if she lied to you.
She said breaking into her phone shows that I am controlling.
DEFLECTION. I would have said "It's a good thing I did, or you'd still be playing me."
We talked some more and I realized that by asking for the truth, I am pushing her away b/c she thinks that is controlling of me.
. . .
I don't believe her but I think my tactic of pushing for the truth won't work. I need to show her that I am not controlling.
Who told you to "push for the truth?" In fact I'm pretty sure I specifically said NOT to. Only to end the convo and walk away if she lied to you.
This!!!!
Just tell her that if she can not be honest with you, you can not talk to her. Then walk away. Of course she is going to say that whatever you do is controlling her, it is the only way she can justify her actions to herself.
No need to be confused. But - make no mistake about it - there's no question as to why you ARE confused. This whole thing is hard, sho. It'll probably be the hardest thing you've ever had to do. But you can do it. And we are here to help.
Can I point out something real quickly, sho? Here's a positive: she's not flying off the handle. And she hasn't dropped the S or D bomb. Even though you were thinking she would. What's the lesson in that? Stop that "stinkin' thinkin'."
And learn to identify - quickly - when you are speaking and acting from a place of strength and honor ... or when you're speaking and acting from a place of FEAR (and ego).
There's no use in demanding the truth from her; she's not ready to give that to you. And frankly, you should be skeptical of anything she says right now
anyway. Because all cheaters lie.
You will not become her "gay boyfriend" - I don't feel an ounce of concern that you will end up there.
And, as Starsky already said, watch that fine line between listening to what she's saying and going overboard on your responses. Yep, I can see why your W may feel you're coming across as "controlling" right now. At the same time, they pretty much allll say that. So find the ways in which you ARE being unreasonably controlling.
No more demanding the truth - or expecting it - right now.
But you've already realized that on your own.
So what now?
Go back through your threads. I know you feel like you've been in a warp zone the past couple days. We know how you feel ... alllll too well. But now that the first talks have been had, this would be a really good time to go back and read through advice you've already been given here. Use that to judge yourself in a way. If you were scoring yourself, in which areas would you give yourself an "A"? In what areas did you fail? And work on the areas in which you failed.
I think you'll also be able to see things - and advice - with a new kind of clarity that maybe you didn't have before. I have read back through my own threads and realize that I see the advice given to me through completely different eyes now. Back then, everything felt fearful and urgent. And that stands out to me now. Fear and urgency must be overcome. But it's going to take practice, sho.
This is marathon. Not a sprint.
First thing's first: lighten up a little. Remember the advice to be warm and neighborly? Confident, cool and collected? A little harder now that she's right there at home, eh?
Yeah, buddy. It's hard.
But please keep in mind that your M wasn't trashed in a day. Nor will it be saved in a day.
Remember: no fear. No urgency.
So how do YOU think you should proceed?
How about just for today? What do you plan to do?
. I need to show her that I am not controlling. That seems to be her #1 concern . . .
WRONG.
You are no longer in the phase of addressing her concerns. The only thing you "need to show her" is a strong, confident man who refuses to live in an open marriage, who will not be played, and who is fighting for his family.
This is no longer "Plan A" time. You DID that, for 6-7 weeks. Did it cause her to end her affair?
^^^.
That's the message I'm hoping you'll see when you read back through your thread, sho.
Being a strong, confident man does NOT mean pushing her for the truth or even ramming all this down her throat. Quite the opposite, actually.
Today was not a great day. I actually expected her to confess to the A. Her blatant lying bugged me. I should have walked away. We did talk for a while about what had been bugging her about her life. She hates the burbs and feels that she does not fit in here. She has fun and energy in NYC. She also told me again how controlling I am and that I make life not fun for her. She feels that she never had a voice in our R from the beginning. I know I have made mistakes but I am a better man she seems to think. She thinks my new way is BS and that I will revert to my old ways, like when I broke into her phone. She bought four very expensive concert tickets to tsar my daughter next weekend but she never mentioned buying four only the two for her and my D. I also did not see the charge hit our Amex card and found a new one in her wallet. I asked her about the four tickets and said as the father I should know. She took this as controlling her.
Today was a cannot win situation. She just needs a ton of space from me. Even when I said that was committed to the M and our family, she said that I was trying to control the situation.
I assume the advice will be to GAL, work on me for me, and detach. Would it be wrong to ask my wife that we just table all talk about jobs and M but do focus on the kids so they don't get hurt by this in the meantime? Or is that too controlling?
The other thing she said to me was she was mad that I did not text her back when she said she had landed and then texted me later to ask where we were. I told her that we were at the pond and that I did not have my phone on me. So she clearly thought that we would be there waiting for her to come home.
More later, sho, but this is all standard behavior/speech for a cheating spouse. I'm pretty sure Starsky tried to warn and prepare you for it.
(Have you read back through your threads for all those little nuggets you've maybe forgotten?)
It's "script." And I've always said it's almost like they have a book for it somewhere that the waywards read. They all say the SAME things. It would be laughable. If it was funny.
Shodan, you are getting wonderful advice from everyone here, and I am taking as much of it as I can for myself. I understand that your brain is going back and forth and rambling and just reeling from pain right now, but you have to keep a strong and steady perception in all interactions with your wife, and then turn these into your reality.
Thank you for posting your story, it also gives me a lot of insight and a chance to follow some of the same advice. Stay strong.
~asat
Sho,
I feel for you Bud!!
My W is in about the same place as yours. I asked her about her A and she denies it also. Tries to deflect it away by talking about other men and women and asks me why it always comes down to the one particular OM.
I have told just a couple times that people are only relaying info to me about this OM not all the others.
I have asked my sources to stop telling things as I feel I have enough info and have let it go.
My W told me a couple weeks ago in a mad sorta way. "The first time you told me you loved me in a year was after the support hearing and while we were discussing or rather you were telling me I was having an A and if my family knew."
I asked if she wanted to know why I haven't said "I love you" and she said she didn't so I left it go.
I think maybe our WAW may be seeing some of our detachment and not liking it so much.
If I/you aren't getting mad at the things they do or we aren't moping around waiting for them then WAW try to turn it around on LBH and get upset to try and draw us in to an argument hoping we get mad and yell so they can justify their position which makes them all the more upset when this doesn't happen.
Starsky and Train, I have been called holier than thou almost every time we have a talk, which is about 7 times in 14 months, so it is definitely like WAW have a book that they memorize and spit out on the occasion of these chats.
Sho, hang in there you'll be fine!! I hope to also be the same at some point.
Okay, a little more now ...
You know how MWD says "believe none of what you hear"?
I think what she's talking about is the spew ... but not the valid points your W is making.
But MWD also suggests NO relationship talks. Not right now. You don't want to add pressure to your W. It's only going to push her away, sho. And she'll come out swinging, with A LOT of venom. Much of it will be untrue.
My H told me at BD#1, for example, that he wasn't sure the baby I was carrying was his. He said I disgusted him. That he never loved me. In fact, that he HATED me.
He came home four months later.
Fast-forward to 2014, BD#2. He told me he wanted to run right before he married me. That he was never happy. That he came back in 2006 "out of convenience." Sho, he even mentioned signing over paternal rights to our CHILDREN!!!!! He is, hands-down, THE most loving, hands-on, doting father I *KNOW*. My chin was on.the.floor. I cannot begin to TELL you who that man was!
Anddddd ... he came home two months later.
They have LOADS of built-up resentment and anger. And the OP makes them feel special. That relationship is new and invigorating and exciting. (Kinda like NYC, eh?
) It's also - until exposure - a secret and risky and exhilerating. When they're caught, they immediately may jump from showing guilt to anger to shame to confusion to entitlement. Or they may stick to just one of those. But I happen to believe they FEEL them ALL. (And, to be honest, I've only read of a few who are apologetic or show shame and guilt when first exposed. By far, the most I've read about start quite the opposite: the wayward lashes out and blames the LBS.) One thing they DON'T feel is love for us LBSs. And I know that's hard to swallow. But your W is an alien right now. Don't even TRY to get in that brain because you'll get it all.wrong.every.time if you do. Trust me. I tried. And failed. And learned.
I know you're right there in the thick of things. But we're sitting here on the outside. Starsky has witnessed hundreds - if not thousands - of people come onto these boards with the same story. The story doesn't change much from one couple to the next, sho, I promise. You MUST take that into consideration. Even when Starsky would give me advice that seemed to be completely OPPOSITE of what I would have *wanted* to do or *thought to have done* - and even though MY story felt unique to ME - his advice was the same for me as it was for allll the others with slight adjustments for my personal sitch when warranted. Because the stories are pretty much all the same. I happen to believe that as long as there is love left somewhere deep down in the wayward spouse (and you did a helluva job building up deposits in W's Love Bank before you found out about the A, so you, again, *already* have a huge advantage that MOST of us didn't have), then the stories' outcomes can pretty much be the same, too.
But you're at a critical point. And you need to play those cards right. Little slip-ups won't make or break you. But *repeated* little slip-ups can.
You know something? I told my H maybe twice in two months that I would be willing to work on our M if he ended his A. I felt, in the throes of everything, that I should be telling him that MORE, especially, I told myself, because H is soooooo forgetful! So SURELY he's different than all the other waywards and REALLY needs me to remind him of the things I said!
Not even close.
When he came home? His e-mail to his parents said, "Train had told me right off the bat that she would be willing to take me back and work on our M if I broke things off with the OW."
He said, "right off the bat." As in, the NIGHT I confronted him about the A. He never forgot. He knew all along. And the time I *did* repeat it to him (because, I justified, I told him really late at night, and we were both so out of it because I just busted him), he quipped: "I already know that." He DID NOT want to hear that again. And I never repeated it. Learn from me and don't repeat it a second time. If you told her? She heard you.
Once you've had THAT discussion and put your boundaries in place, it's time to back.way.off. GAL. Try to detach yourself from her words and her actions.
This IS NOT going to be easy. You might have your nose rubbed in that A for as long as it takes for it to run its course. You're gonna have to have one helluva backbone, sho. But I think your actions (non-verbal) have the power to influence a lot.
Get used to "bad days" for a while.
You get to say when it's over. But, frankly, you're gonna hurt whether you're fighting or not. So if your W is a quality person, sit down, buckle up and tighten up the belt on the big-boy pants. Get ready for the fight of your life. (It'll be worth it in the end, no matter what.)
We're in your corner, sho.
You know how MWD says "believe none of what you hear"?
I think what she's talking about is the spew ... but not the valid points your W is making.
No, it is more on the fact that cheaters lie. Believe nothing you hear, and only have of what you see.
Thanks for the honest feedback and pep talk. We left our convo with her insisting they were just friends and that they are commiserating with each other. Probably how it started obviously. I know she is lying but clearly my not believing her story set her off.
Last night, I went over to see some friends and came home around 9pm. She was in bed and did not really speak with me. After 10 min of me in bed with her. she took her book and slept downstairs on the couch. This morning, I saw her, said good morning and we chatted briefly about her and my day. I have work plans tonight, so I won't be home. I believe she will be in NYC Wed/Thr.
One thing that I know is that if we don't work on our R and M, and we do divorce with a lot of resentment and issues going unresolved, the kids will be hurt in the long run. They need two parents who can be parents together, even if they are divorced. Not parents with resentment towards each other. And we cannot work on that until she is honest with me and of course, drops the OM.
Not sure how I say that to her. I said most of that yesterday but not the point about our relationship post divorce. ANY ADVICE?
My goals for this week:
- find a therapist to help me with this M and my control issues
- speak with my DB coach today
- Find ways to GAL...I have seen some friends that past few nights, who have been super supportive. They said to come by whenever. It does help to chat with people about my sitch and just do something without her on my mind (tough to do)
I also need to get my mind ready for being a single/divorce parent. I need to detach from her.